[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They got some sense of where you were. You had to do reports.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They got some sense of how well you knew the place. And, you know.

[Assistant] Now, so after three, four months, you're being reassigned?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That couldn't have been across the board for the whole group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They got some sense of how well you knew the place. And, you know.

[Assistant] Now, so after three, four months, you're being reassigned?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That couldn't have been across the board for the whole group?

[User] No, but it happened a lot.

[Assistant] There must have been some who were judged not ready?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That couldn't have been across the board for the whole group?

[User] No, but it happened a lot.

[Assistant] There must have been some who were judged not ready?

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] You were judged ready?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but it happened a lot.

[Assistant] There must have been some who were judged not ready?

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] You were judged ready?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And it came as no surprise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] You were judged ready?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And it came as no surprise?

[User] No, I wasn't surprised.

[Assistant] So where'd they send you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn't surprised.

[Assistant] So where'd they send you?

[User] Ol Kalou, which was still in the same region.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But different direction.

[Assistant] Okay. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ol Kalou, which was still in the same region.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But different direction.

[Assistant] Okay. [tape break]

[User] Ol Kalou was closer to Thomsons Falls, much easier to get to. It's on the main road from Thomsons Falls that goes to Nairobi essentially.

[Assistant] Now, had there been a settlement officer there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But different direction.

[Assistant] Okay. [tape break]

[User] Ol Kalou was closer to Thomsons Falls, much easier to get to. It's on the main road from Thomsons Falls that goes to Nairobi essentially.

[Assistant] Now, had there been a settlement officer there?

[User] There had been.

[Assistant] And what had happened to him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ol Kalou was closer to Thomsons Falls, much easier to get to. It's on the main road from Thomsons Falls that goes to Nairobi essentially.

[Assistant] Now, had there been a settlement officer there?

[User] There had been.

[Assistant] And what had happened to him?

[User] He was reassigned.

[Assistant] Because he was incompetent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was reassigned.

[Assistant] Because he was incompetent?

[User] No, he was a youngish guy. He was moved to a more responsible position.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And there was that kind of shifting going on, particularly as many of the Europeans were beginning to leave. So some of the officers in places like Ol Kalou, I've forgotten where he went. I think he went to the west because he wasn't Kikuyu and sometimes I think people preferred to be in their own area. But he was reassigned.

[Assistant] But you were still within the same district?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was a youngish guy. He was moved to a more responsible position.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And there was that kind of shifting going on, particularly as many of the Europeans were beginning to leave. So some of the officers in places like Ol Kalou, I've forgotten where he went. I think he went to the west because he wasn't Kikuyu and sometimes I think people preferred to be in their own area. But he was reassigned.

[Assistant] But you were still within the same district?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it's still the district settlement officer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was that kind of shifting going on, particularly as many of the Europeans were beginning to leave. So some of the officers in places like Ol Kalou, I've forgotten where he went. I think he went to the west because he wasn't Kikuyu and sometimes I think people preferred to be in their own area. But he was reassigned.

[Assistant] But you were still within the same district?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it's still the district settlement officer?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, same district settlement officer.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there a house waiting for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, same district settlement officer.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there a house waiting for you?

[User] There's a house. Really nice house, you know, compared to where I'd been in the first place.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Very nice house.

[Assistant] At any point did you have a steward or someone to help you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, actually. I did. Samatta. Because Ephraim had hired a guy. Joseph. He was a really sweet guy. You know, he was sort of a cook and everything else. And when I got transferred, Joseph said, Mr. Michael, I want to go with you. So I said, fine. So he came with me to Ol Kalou.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And stayed in service working with me as the cook person.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we were responsible for their salaries, you know, out of our Peace Corps stipend. But, hell, the average salary was so low. And even though I paid at the high end of the scale, it wasn't the problem.

[Assistant] Right, right. So Peace Corps was paying you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we were responsible for their salaries, you know, out of our Peace Corps stipend. But, hell, the average salary was so low. And even though I paid at the high end of the scale, it wasn't the problem.

[Assistant] Right, right. So Peace Corps was paying you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. We got, I think it was eight or 900 shillings a month.

[Assistant] So it was an easy, by now you're familiar with the work and you're moving into a new environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. We got, I think it was eight or 900 shillings a month.

[Assistant] So it was an easy, by now you're familiar with the work and you're moving into a new environment.

[User] Yeah. But the same district settlement office, the same sort of cast of characters.

[Assistant] And the new office that you're now in charge of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But the same district settlement office, the same sort of cast of characters.

[Assistant] And the new office that you're now in charge of?

[User] Yeah. The folks weren't quite as, they were okay.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They weren't quite of the caliber. So, you know, I had a little more work to do to get them trained and so forth, but they were perfectly fine. And it was a bigger scheme, it was 400 families.

[Assistant] And you could do most of the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The folks weren't quite as, they were okay.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They weren't quite of the caliber. So, you know, I had a little more work to do to get them trained and so forth, but they were perfectly fine. And it was a bigger scheme, it was 400 families.

[Assistant] And you could do most of the training?

[User] Yeah. I did.

[Assistant] Did you continue the practice of trying to visit all 400?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't quite of the caliber. So, you know, I had a little more work to do to get them trained and so forth, but they were perfectly fine. And it was a bigger scheme, it was 400 families.

[Assistant] And you could do most of the training?

[User] Yeah. I did.

[Assistant] Did you continue the practice of trying to visit all 400?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] That wasn't common, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I did.

[Assistant] Did you continue the practice of trying to visit all 400?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] That wasn't common, I mean.

[User] No. That was pretty uncommon. But, you know, one, it's fun and I'm gregarious and love to get out and joke with people. It was just, it was a delight to get out and meet folk, you know. And they were really thrilled and often surprised. Then, you know, once you start doing it, they sort of come to expect it, not in an untoward way, but initially was a real surprise because the only time anybody visited them was if there was a problem.

[Assistant] So now when you're running the office, do you encounter problems you can't solve, I mean, or questions you can't answer? I mean, you're not an expert by any means.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That was pretty uncommon. But, you know, one, it's fun and I'm gregarious and love to get out and joke with people. It was just, it was a delight to get out and meet folk, you know. And they were really thrilled and often surprised. Then, you know, once you start doing it, they sort of come to expect it, not in an untoward way, but initially was a real surprise because the only time anybody visited them was if there was a problem.

[Assistant] So now when you're running the office, do you encounter problems you can't solve, I mean, or questions you can't answer? I mean, you're not an expert by any means.

[User] Yeah, I do encounter some tough problems. You know, there are guys who've got local bulls and I'm supposed to make them castrate them because you don't want the local bulls inseminating the European stock. And that's difficult, you know, to. And you're supposed to, if necessary, really use force. [tape break] But there's human with tractors drawing lines. And so these were hard.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You do the best you could. But, you know, often everybody wasn't satisfied. So there were local problems of that level.

[Assistant] Did people have any appeal over your head if they wanted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I do encounter some tough problems. You know, there are guys who've got local bulls and I'm supposed to make them castrate them because you don't want the local bulls inseminating the European stock. And that's difficult, you know, to. And you're supposed to, if necessary, really use force. [tape break] But there's human with tractors drawing lines. And so these were hard.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You do the best you could. But, you know, often everybody wasn't satisfied. So there were local problems of that level.

[Assistant] Did people have any appeal over your head if they wanted?

[User] Oh, they could go to the senior settlement officer.

[Assistant] In the district?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You do the best you could. But, you know, often everybody wasn't satisfied. So there were local problems of that level.

[Assistant] Did people have any appeal over your head if they wanted?

[User] Oh, they could go to the senior settlement officer.

[Assistant] In the district?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did it, did it happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they could go to the senior settlement officer.

[Assistant] In the district?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did it, did it happen?

[User] No, not really. You know, because mostly I worked to try to come up with a reasonable and fair solution.

[Assistant] Where people working mostly as subsistence farmers or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. You know, because mostly I worked to try to come up with a reasonable and fair solution.

[Assistant] Where people working mostly as subsistence farmers or?

[User] Pretty much. Well, beyond that there was subsistence farming, but almost all of them had something to sell, whether it was milk to the Kenya Cooperative Creamery. Some had some pyrethrum. Some had sheep.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] If you grew a field of pyrethrum, let's say you had an acre to. You would cultivate it, let it grow, then you collect it. And the settlement scheme, or two or three settlement schemes, would pool the resources to buy a drying device. You'd dry the stuff and you'd take it in to Pyrethrum Board where it would be weighed and you'd get credit and ultimately some money for it. So there was that kind of thing that most farmers were engaged in. There was wool to be sold if you had some sheep.

[Assistant] And did you tend to coordinate that kind of activity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much. Well, beyond that there was subsistence farming, but almost all of them had something to sell, whether it was milk to the Kenya Cooperative Creamery. Some had some pyrethrum. Some had sheep.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] If you grew a field of pyrethrum, let's say you had an acre to. You would cultivate it, let it grow, then you collect it. And the settlement scheme, or two or three settlement schemes, would pool the resources to buy a drying device. You'd dry the stuff and you'd take it in to Pyrethrum Board where it would be weighed and you'd get credit and ultimately some money for it. So there was that kind of thing that most farmers were engaged in. There was wool to be sold if you had some sheep.

[Assistant] And did you tend to coordinate that kind of activity?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there any ever any sense of combining plots to do large scale pyrethrum growing on a basis of efficiency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you grew a field of pyrethrum, let's say you had an acre to. You would cultivate it, let it grow, then you collect it. And the settlement scheme, or two or three settlement schemes, would pool the resources to buy a drying device. You'd dry the stuff and you'd take it in to Pyrethrum Board where it would be weighed and you'd get credit and ultimately some money for it. So there was that kind of thing that most farmers were engaged in. There was wool to be sold if you had some sheep.

[Assistant] And did you tend to coordinate that kind of activity?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there any ever any sense of combining plots to do large scale pyrethrum growing on a basis of efficiency?

[User] No. Sadly.

[Assistant] And was Ol Kalou a scheme where the issue of inheritance became a problem? In other words, a farmer's three sons would expect to each get a piece of his land. Or how did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Sadly.

[Assistant] And was Ol Kalou a scheme where the issue of inheritance became a problem? In other words, a farmer's three sons would expect to each get a piece of his land. Or how did that work?

[User] It was so new then, Bob, that inheritance wasn't an issue that I got faced with, but it certainly, almost certainly would have occurred down the road when the farmer died.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But again, by then, when I got Ol Kalou, it was maybe three years old.

[Assistant] Okay, we'll leave it. Um. So, okay, let's bring it toward the end of the first year. During the first year, did you take any vacation at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was so new then, Bob, that inheritance wasn't an issue that I got faced with, but it certainly, almost certainly would have occurred down the road when the farmer died.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But again, by then, when I got Ol Kalou, it was maybe three years old.

[Assistant] Okay, we'll leave it. Um. So, okay, let's bring it toward the end of the first year. During the first year, did you take any vacation at all?

[User] I might have, uh. I might have gone to Nairobi.

[Assistant] You're not going to tell the story about going to Malindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I might have, uh. I might have gone to Nairobi.

[Assistant] You're not going to tell the story about going to Malindi?

[User] No. No. Actually, my best vacation, longest vacation, I'm not sure, it was probably after I was on Ol Kalou a little bit. And maybe it was by the end of the first year, you know, first 14 months. I had become friends with some of the teachers, especially Rose Levinson.

[Assistant] Levine.

[User] Levine. And, um, Lance and Joy Sobel and some of their friends.

[Assistant] And they were all in Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had a good time. And then we all got together, rented a vehicle, and went on this long trek to the coast and to Tanzania.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We drove to Mombasa and from Mombasa to Tonga and on. It was quite a trek.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That was the sort of major vacation I took. You know, on the weekends when I was at Ol Kalou, we could run into Nakuru and maybe stay overnight. So there was time for fun. The major vacation was that one. That was just a blast.

[Assistant] And you didn't, you did the game parks? You must have at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they came back and got us. It ended up that Joyce and Lance and whoever else, there was somebody else that was in the car, they didn't actually get into Murchison. They had to wait for the car to be dealt with.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Jadish and Rose and I, at least the three of us, I'm trying to think if there was a fourth in the VW, did get on to Murchison and you had a good time, but felt awful that our colleagues were stuck.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So that had to be a second vacation because we wouldn't have done Uganda.

[Assistant] By then there was also a Peace Corps in Uganda I think. You may have made contact with some of them or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that had to be a second vacation because we wouldn't have done Uganda.

[Assistant] By then there was also a Peace Corps in Uganda I think. You may have made contact with some of them or.

[User] I think we did. I know we did in Tanzania.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] In fact, I remember a couple of the volunteers in Tanzania. But so, yeah, we, we did a couple of vacations, you know, and the vacations that I did really were with Joyce, Lance, Rose.

[Assistant] With the teachers, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we did. I know we did in Tanzania.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] In fact, I remember a couple of the volunteers in Tanzania. But so, yeah, we, we did a couple of vacations, you know, and the vacations that I did really were with Joyce, Lance, Rose.

[Assistant] With the teachers, yeah.

[User] Yeah. They became close buddies from the times I would go to Nairobi and we hooked up. And we just had a lot in common and liked each other a lot.

[Assistant] End of the first year was there a group gathering?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, I remember a couple of the volunteers in Tanzania. But so, yeah, we, we did a couple of vacations, you know, and the vacations that I did really were with Joyce, Lance, Rose.

[Assistant] With the teachers, yeah.

[User] Yeah. They became close buddies from the times I would go to Nairobi and we hooked up. And we just had a lot in common and liked each other a lot.

[Assistant] End of the first year was there a group gathering?

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Of your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They became close buddies from the times I would go to Nairobi and we hooked up. And we just had a lot in common and liked each other a lot.

[Assistant] End of the first year was there a group gathering?

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Of your group?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And had, was there a second group of settlement officers in the works or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Of your group?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And had, was there a second group of settlement officers in the works or?

[User] I think they were maybe on the ground. I don't think we were there more than a year before they. If, if it was more than a year, it wasn't more than a year and a couple of months.

[Assistant] Were any of you invited to help train them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And had, was there a second group of settlement officers in the works or?

[User] I think they were maybe on the ground. I don't think we were there more than a year before they. If, if it was more than a year, it wasn't more than a year and a couple of months.

[Assistant] Were any of you invited to help train them?

[User] Not in the States, but we were brought, a couple of us were brought into Nairobi when they came in.

[Assistant] During the two week orientation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they were maybe on the ground. I don't think we were there more than a year before they. If, if it was more than a year, it wasn't more than a year and a couple of months.

[Assistant] Were any of you invited to help train them?

[User] Not in the States, but we were brought, a couple of us were brought into Nairobi when they came in.

[Assistant] During the two week orientation?

[User] Yeah. And we met some of them. And some of them were going to be, you know, in the same area where we were. So.

[Assistant] Right, right, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And we met some of them. And some of them were going to be, you know, in the same area where we were. So.

[Assistant] Right, right, right.

[User] And they were going to kind of start off the way we did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we got to meet them and, you know, help acquaint them and situate them.

[Assistant] Do, do you remember? I just, sorry. Do you remember any of your Thanksgivings or Christmases as being particularly lonely times? I mean, it's one of the few times maybe when some people are inclined to get homesick.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we left before Christmas in '66. So Christmas in '65, went into Nairobi. And Christmas is kind of a major holiday there. Oh, it's weird because it's, you know, hot and gorgeous.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I remember all the celebratory stuff and there was Boxing Day and this. It was kind of nice but different, you know.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So that Christmas, I think I hung out with Rose and the Nairobi crew. I don't think we did anything for Thanksgiving.

[Assistant] Okay. Had you been communicating back home to friends and or family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I remember all the celebratory stuff and there was Boxing Day and this. It was kind of nice but different, you know.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So that Christmas, I think I hung out with Rose and the Nairobi crew. I don't think we did anything for Thanksgiving.

[Assistant] Okay. Had you been communicating back home to friends and or family?

[User] Regularly.

[Assistant] Generally upbeat letters? You didn't tell them when you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Brian had been stuck as an assistant in a settlement scheme the whole while.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So Kirkwood said, well, I'm going to switch you with him. I said, no, you're not. You know, the best you can do is you may send me home, but you're not switching me because this is a lie.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Peace Corps was not terribly supportive. They didn't want to make waves. They didn't say we wouldn't back you, but they didn't move in to back me.

[Assistant] This is, after the first year is this happening or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Kirkwood said, well, I'm going to switch you with him. I said, no, you're not. You know, the best you can do is you may send me home, but you're not switching me because this is a lie.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Peace Corps was not terribly supportive. They didn't want to make waves. They didn't say we wouldn't back you, but they didn't move in to back me.

[Assistant] This is, after the first year is this happening or?

[User] Yeah, it's after the first year. I'm on Ol Kalou.

[Assistant] So the program's already been in place for a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Peace Corps was not terribly supportive. They didn't want to make waves. They didn't say we wouldn't back you, but they didn't move in to back me.

[Assistant] This is, after the first year is this happening or?

[User] Yeah, it's after the first year. I'm on Ol Kalou.

[Assistant] So the program's already been in place for a year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And the second group has come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, he wanted to do Brian a favor, and he was pissed at me.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I actually got, proved that this guy, the sheep guy. One, that there was a guy, that the guy had actually left saying he was sick and going to get, you know, I got all that out. But Kirkwood didn't want to relent because that wasn't the real reason. He just wanted to help out Brian. So I said I wasn't doing it. And I talked to a Peace Corps person and they said, you know, you've got to sort of figure out if there's a way. In the meantime, my settlement scheme, it turned out. You may remember this really well- known guy, Josiah Mwangi Kariuki, who was assassinated.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] It was a big cause celeb. He was a major figure in Kenyan politics. And his wife had a plot on my scheme. And she and other people really liked me because I went out of my way to do a good job and be a good person. People on the settlement scheme rose up in anger, called a meeting, and made it clear to the settlement people that this guy was lying, that they had been there. Josiah's wife, this is before he was assassinated. He was a major power. He had a big youth movement and so forth. Josiah's wife called Josiah Mwangi. She looked into it and sent word. If you send him home, you're going to have trouble. And all of a sudden the trouble disappeared. Kirkwood got sent away. And Peace Corps was.

[Assistant] Didn't know what to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn't know what to do. You know, they really didn't know what to do. In a way I guess they were kind of happy I hadn't been maltreated, but in a way they weren't pleased with the notoriety of it all.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes.

[User] But, you know, he got sent away and everything was fine.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] But that was the only trouble. And it wasn't the kind of thing I would have written home about. I wasn't worried about it. I was going to stand my ground, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Now going sometimes, you know, going into the second year, you know that within ten months or so you're going to, your tour is over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, he got sent away and everything was fine.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] But that was the only trouble. And it wasn't the kind of thing I would have written home about. I wasn't worried about it. I was going to stand my ground, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Now going sometimes, you know, going into the second year, you know that within ten months or so you're going to, your tour is over.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And sometimes people say, well, before I leave, you know, I'd like to at least to accomplish X, Y, Z, or have gotten this far. Don't let me put words in your mouth. But was that an element?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was the only trouble. And it wasn't the kind of thing I would have written home about. I wasn't worried about it. I was going to stand my ground, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Now going sometimes, you know, going into the second year, you know that within ten months or so you're going to, your tour is over.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And sometimes people say, well, before I leave, you know, I'd like to at least to accomplish X, Y, Z, or have gotten this far. Don't let me put words in your mouth. But was that an element?

[User] Absolutely. Yeah, I had an agenda. There were certain issues and problems that needed to be dealt with, that I thought were important. For example, we didn't have a cattle dip and I broke my butt trying to get it organized, to get it done. Ultimately, we did get it dug and put up.

[Assistant] Now, you have to deal with other ministries to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And sometimes people say, well, before I leave, you know, I'd like to at least to accomplish X, Y, Z, or have gotten this far. Don't let me put words in your mouth. But was that an element?

[User] Absolutely. Yeah, I had an agenda. There were certain issues and problems that needed to be dealt with, that I thought were important. For example, we didn't have a cattle dip and I broke my butt trying to get it organized, to get it done. Ultimately, we did get it dug and put up.

[Assistant] Now, you have to deal with other ministries to do that.

[User] Absolutely. And get the money and get the.

[Assistant] Now where would you get money from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From Lands and Settlement.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] They were supposed to do it, you know, but some places got favored and, you know, it just took forever to get anything done.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I got a cattle dip. I got a couple of other major projects done. And one of the most fun things I did, actually, Marie Gadsden came to. I did this big, um.

[Assistant] Marie was a Peace Corps staff member in charge of education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got a cattle dip. I got a couple of other major projects done. And one of the most fun things I did, actually, Marie Gadsden came to. I did this big, um.

[Assistant] Marie was a Peace Corps staff member in charge of education.

[User] Yeah. She was in the area, and I invited her to what was an agricultural fair for the scheme. You know, it was an idea I stole from lots of places. We didn't do this shit in Chicago.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But what I did was I announced we're going to have a competition and it's going to be a big celebration with prizes. The best pumpkin, the best dish, you know, the Judas cow. So we had all these categories, and, you know, we had a good time. We, uh, we had food, and then everybody showed up.

[Assistant] On the scheme?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So those were some of the things that I wanted to get done.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The fair, one, because it was a community building fun thing, but also to sort of highlight people who really were successful.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] The cattle dip was another.

[Assistant] What about the the goal that was supposedly part of the program of identifying or finding a replacement? Were you able to do anything for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cattle dip was another.

[Assistant] What about the the goal that was supposedly part of the program of identifying or finding a replacement? Were you able to do anything for that?

[User] Absolutely. I saw to the continued training of my staff and the man who was clerk, Erastus Kihara, I pushed really hard and got him first to be sort of assistant to me. Brought him from Shamata to Ol Kalou.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Got him to be assistant. And when I left, he became a settlement officer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Was there, was there any exam or was it strictly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. I saw to the continued training of my staff and the man who was clerk, Erastus Kihara, I pushed really hard and got him first to be sort of assistant to me. Brought him from Shamata to Ol Kalou.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Got him to be assistant. And when I left, he became a settlement officer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Was there, was there any exam or was it strictly?

[User] It was training. I don't know. There might have been exams during the training.

[Assistant] Right. And the training was done by the Settlement ministry itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got him to be assistant. And when I left, he became a settlement officer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Was there, was there any exam or was it strictly?

[User] It was training. I don't know. There might have been exams during the training.

[Assistant] Right. And the training was done by the Settlement ministry itself?

[User] Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant] So you encouraged him to take whatever courses that were being offered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was training. I don't know. There might have been exams during the training.

[Assistant] Right. And the training was done by the Settlement ministry itself?

[User] Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant] So you encouraged him to take whatever courses that were being offered?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And was he aware that you would tapped him to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And was quite pleased.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, it was a delight to be able to do it. He was. There are a lot of competent people, you know. He was a standout, but the system was really very, very good.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It wasn't a spot I could put him in because their ministry was separate in a sense, or their department was, but within Settlement. And I don't think I was the only one who did that. I know that it happened in a couple of instances where people had been identified.

[Assistant] As you come to the end of the second year, did you at all consider the idea of extending your tour to, because you never quite finished with the things you're trying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, it was a delight to be able to do it. He was. There are a lot of competent people, you know. He was a standout, but the system was really very, very good.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It wasn't a spot I could put him in because their ministry was separate in a sense, or their department was, but within Settlement. And I don't think I was the only one who did that. I know that it happened in a couple of instances where people had been identified.

[Assistant] As you come to the end of the second year, did you at all consider the idea of extending your tour to, because you never quite finished with the things you're trying?

[User] Yeah, I gave it a little thought, I did, but I decided to come on back and go to graduate school because I wanted to do African studies and I'd gotten into Northwestern, which was my dream.

[Assistant] So you had applied while you were in Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had applied while I was in Kenya. And was accepted into Northwestern.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And this was sheer luck. One of the people who came during our training in Milwaukee was a linguist who talked to us about Swahili and, um, I'm slipping on her name right now, but she ended up in the linguistics department at Northwestern and really pushed me to come. And I got a really good fellowship so.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I decided to come on in. I knew that even though I was leaving this particular venture, that doing what I was about to do was going to bring me back.

[Assistant] Yeah, uh, let's stick with the Peace Corps experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And this was sheer luck. One of the people who came during our training in Milwaukee was a linguist who talked to us about Swahili and, um, I'm slipping on her name right now, but she ended up in the linguistics department at Northwestern and really pushed me to come. And I got a really good fellowship so.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I decided to come on in. I knew that even though I was leaving this particular venture, that doing what I was about to do was going to bring me back.

[Assistant] Yeah, uh, let's stick with the Peace Corps experience.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Without your being overly modest, I assume you were probably considered one of the better volunteers in the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I decided to come on in. I knew that even though I was leaving this particular venture, that doing what I was about to do was going to bring me back.

[Assistant] Yeah, uh, let's stick with the Peace Corps experience.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Without your being overly modest, I assume you were probably considered one of the better volunteers in the group.

[User] I suspect so.

[Assistant] And often, well, certainly even by '66, the Peace Corps was recruiting very aggressively among returned, the stars of returned volunteers. Were you approached at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Without your being overly modest, I assume you were probably considered one of the better volunteers in the group.

[User] I suspect so.

[Assistant] And often, well, certainly even by '66, the Peace Corps was recruiting very aggressively among returned, the stars of returned volunteers. Were you approached at all?

[User] I was, uh, by local staff people wanted me to consider it. But, you know, I was pretty clear by then that I was going to go on to graduate school. So it didn't. It came up. But since I was clear about what I was doing, there was no pressure.

[Assistant] You've been accepted at Northwestern. Okay. And it's for a master's degree or just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suspect so.

[Assistant] And often, well, certainly even by '66, the Peace Corps was recruiting very aggressively among returned, the stars of returned volunteers. Were you approached at all?

[User] I was, uh, by local staff people wanted me to consider it. But, you know, I was pretty clear by then that I was going to go on to graduate school. So it didn't. It came up. But since I was clear about what I was doing, there was no pressure.

[Assistant] You've been accepted at Northwestern. Okay. And it's for a master's degree or just?

[User] PhD program.

[Assistant] In African studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, uh, by local staff people wanted me to consider it. But, you know, I was pretty clear by then that I was going to go on to graduate school. So it didn't. It came up. But since I was clear about what I was doing, there was no pressure.

[Assistant] You've been accepted at Northwestern. Okay. And it's for a master's degree or just?

[User] PhD program.

[Assistant] In African studies?

[User] African studies. Political science, but the African Studies Program.

[Assistant] Okay. So did Peace Corps invited you to stay on or they wanted you to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a discussion with the staff. Jim Black, I think, was the guy's name.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And he clearly encouraged me to stay because he and I got along really well.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh, but again, you know, I was thrilled with my Peace Corps service, but I wanted to really go do the African studies. So I was pretty clear and I'd been accepted and had a fellowship. So, um, that, that was fine with me.

[Assistant] Was there a termination conference? Often at the end of service, the group would get.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he clearly encouraged me to stay because he and I got along really well.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh, but again, you know, I was thrilled with my Peace Corps service, but I wanted to really go do the African studies. So I was pretty clear and I'd been accepted and had a fellowship. So, um, that, that was fine with me.

[Assistant] Was there a termination conference? Often at the end of service, the group would get.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Want to talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I have this peculiar kind of ethic. I've noticed at least one other occasion when I'm making a major transition, I get unusually quiet and reflexive. And I'm thinking about where have I been, what has it been like. I said, uncharacteristically, almost nothing. And some of the young people who were my friends thought I was one of the ones who had hated it.

[Assistant] Oh, oh.

[User] It was the furthest thing from the truth. It's just that I was thinking about all that I learned, all the people I knew, and a little bit about, all right, what does the next step mean? And I just, I was ruminating rather than anything else. And, you know, a couple of times there were a couple of, three answers that were negative and Benson was obvious and nobody knew who the others were. But because, as I say, I wasn't saying anything, some people thought it was me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I had a fabulous time and.

[Assistant] And generally did most of the group have a sense that they had achieved something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the furthest thing from the truth. It's just that I was thinking about all that I learned, all the people I knew, and a little bit about, all right, what does the next step mean? And I just, I was ruminating rather than anything else. And, you know, a couple of times there were a couple of, three answers that were negative and Benson was obvious and nobody knew who the others were. But because, as I say, I wasn't saying anything, some people thought it was me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I had a fabulous time and.

[Assistant] And generally did most of the group have a sense that they had achieved something?

[User] Absolutely. Strongly positive feelings. As I say, it was striking that a couple of people would have such negative feelings.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, sometimes the negative feelings may be in relation to Peace Corps staff, and that's totally separate in many ways from the job that you're doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a fabulous time and.

[Assistant] And generally did most of the group have a sense that they had achieved something?

[User] Absolutely. Strongly positive feelings. As I say, it was striking that a couple of people would have such negative feelings.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, sometimes the negative feelings may be in relation to Peace Corps staff, and that's totally separate in many ways from the job that you're doing.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] If you're successful as a volunteer, you've probably integrated more toward the job you're doing than what Peace Corps is expecting of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] If you're successful as a volunteer, you've probably integrated more toward the job you're doing than what Peace Corps is expecting of you.

[User] Right. I don't remember the particular complaints. I kind of think, at least with the Bensons, my memory is they were in a position that didn't work.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] For a variety of reasons, it wasn't the staff. My recollection is that for the most part, the staff were fairly highly regarded, you know, I mean.

[Assistant] And your own, your own assessment is they were supportive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a variety of reasons, it wasn't the staff. My recollection is that for the most part, the staff were fairly highly regarded, you know, I mean.

[Assistant] And your own, your own assessment is they were supportive?

[User] Absolutely, without question. I thought George was limited.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Not unsupportive, just limited, almost naive. Whereas Black was fabulous. Just a terrific person.

[Assistant] And he was, he was in charge of the settlement part of the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, without question. I thought George was limited.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Not unsupportive, just limited, almost naive. Whereas Black was fabulous. Just a terrific person.

[Assistant] And he was, he was in charge of the settlement part of the program?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So obviously, you've already given your assessment of what you feel of the two years. And on a broader sense, what do you think was the impact of having been in the Peace Corps on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not unsupportive, just limited, almost naive. Whereas Black was fabulous. Just a terrific person.

[Assistant] And he was, he was in charge of the settlement part of the program?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So obviously, you've already given your assessment of what you feel of the two years. And on a broader sense, what do you think was the impact of having been in the Peace Corps on you?

[User] It was life shaping.

[Assistant] Um, and can you flesh that out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So obviously, you've already given your assessment of what you feel of the two years. And on a broader sense, what do you think was the impact of having been in the Peace Corps on you?

[User] It was life shaping.

[Assistant] Um, and can you flesh that out?

[User] Sure. Sure. I, I don't think it made me a person fundamentally different from the person who went in. It just gave new dimensions to, um. I had a perspective shaped by working with the people with whom I worked. It was internationalist, but it was also a deep appreciation for the humanity of even the poorest folk.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you were spending time with the ordinary farmers on all schemes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Sure. I, I don't think it made me a person fundamentally different from the person who went in. It just gave new dimensions to, um. I had a perspective shaped by working with the people with whom I worked. It was internationalist, but it was also a deep appreciation for the humanity of even the poorest folk.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you were spending time with the ordinary farmers on all schemes.

[User] Yeah. And what was amazing, you know, is with these people who are about as poor as you get, subsistence farmers.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But their love of family, their sense of humor, their generosity was always on display. And you couldn't come away with this feeling that these are the poorest of the poor and, oh my God, we've got to help them and bring them up.

[Assistant] There's a life there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But their love of family, their sense of humor, their generosity was always on display. And you couldn't come away with this feeling that these are the poorest of the poor and, oh my God, we've got to help them and bring them up.

[Assistant] There's a life there.

[User] There's a life there. An amazing life there. I think that's stayed with me. I reject the sort of analyzes of the underclass where, you know, these poor, benighted people. Lord knows we've got to pull them up out of their misery.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There really are lives there.

[Assistant] You must have a good sense of self confidence because you stood up to a senior settlement officer. I gather you did that without hesitation. I mean, that's pretty nervy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There really are lives there.

[Assistant] You must have a good sense of self confidence because you stood up to a senior settlement officer. I gather you did that without hesitation. I mean, that's pretty nervy.

[User] Yeah. I think I was raised with that. You know, I was raised by two of the strongest people I've ever known.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In an environment where you were not going to be as happy if you weren't forward and so confident as if you were. So I was that way from the beginning.

[Assistant] But you proved that in an international setting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think I was raised with that. You know, I was raised by two of the strongest people I've ever known.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In an environment where you were not going to be as happy if you weren't forward and so confident as if you were. So I was that way from the beginning.

[Assistant] But you proved that in an international setting.

[User] Yeah. You know, I've done that throughout my life, battling, you know, even in high school. But, you know, I knew, I'm. [tape break]

[Assistant] So, uh, you're now, you're leaving Kenya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In an environment where you were not going to be as happy if you weren't forward and so confident as if you were. So I was that way from the beginning.

[Assistant] But you proved that in an international setting.

[User] Yeah. You know, I've done that throughout my life, battling, you know, even in high school. But, you know, I knew, I'm. [tape break]

[Assistant] So, uh, you're now, you're leaving Kenya.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] We'll jump ahead. One of the questions I ask is, uh, in the years that followed, have you been able to have any contact with the people you worked with in Kenya? Not the volunteers, but the Kenyans. Have you maintained any ongoing contact? And I know there's a lot. Answer that in, you know, in the narrow sense, and we'll broaden it later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, I've done that throughout my life, battling, you know, even in high school. But, you know, I knew, I'm. [tape break]

[Assistant] So, uh, you're now, you're leaving Kenya.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] We'll jump ahead. One of the questions I ask is, uh, in the years that followed, have you been able to have any contact with the people you worked with in Kenya? Not the volunteers, but the Kenyans. Have you maintained any ongoing contact? And I know there's a lot. Answer that in, you know, in the narrow sense, and we'll broaden it later.

[User] I have, not as directly with the farmers. But I've been back to Kenya maybe a dozen more times since.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Ol Kalou?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] We'll jump ahead. One of the questions I ask is, uh, in the years that followed, have you been able to have any contact with the people you worked with in Kenya? Not the volunteers, but the Kenyans. Have you maintained any ongoing contact? And I know there's a lot. Answer that in, you know, in the narrow sense, and we'll broaden it later.

[User] I have, not as directly with the farmers. But I've been back to Kenya maybe a dozen more times since.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Ol Kalou?

[User] I went to Ol Kalou. I actually looked up my old clerk who had.

[Assistant] How many years later is this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Ol Kalou. I actually looked up my old clerk who had.

[Assistant] How many years later is this?

[User] I went back in '87.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] So it was many years later.

[Assistant] Although you had been back to Kenya in the intervening years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went back in '87.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] So it was many years later.

[Assistant] Although you had been back to Kenya in the intervening years.

[User] Yeah, I'd gone back to do dissertation research in '70.

[Assistant] Okay, well, let's just take the Ol Kalou visit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was many years later.

[Assistant] Although you had been back to Kenya in the intervening years.

[User] Yeah, I'd gone back to do dissertation research in '70.

[Assistant] Okay, well, let's just take the Ol Kalou visit.

[User] It was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. People still knew me and remembered me and.

[Assistant] Were you still Mnegro?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. People still knew me and remembered me and.

[Assistant] Were you still Mnegro?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Although they knew a little bit more, you know, there were TV programs and you could actually make a direct call to Kenya as opposed to booking it through London.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] So. Most of them remembered me. And I looked up Kihara. He'd been a successful settlement officer, moved on, and actually gotten involved in politics. And I looked up several of the farmers on Ol Kalou. I tried to find Ephraim but couldn't. He might well have been alive and well, and yet I couldn't find him while I was there. So that was a delight when I did get to visit and see. The changes were astounding.

[Assistant] The whole settlement program has changed considerably over the 20 years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just a sea change.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The other thing that was different, and people on the scheme talked about this. When I was there, the civil service was effective, honest. If you needed something, generally you could get it. I mean, it wasn't the computer age, things were slower. But if I needed a map, I went to the Geological Survey. They looked it up and I'd get it. I went back in '87. Corruption was unbounded and you couldn't get anything done. It reminded me of the descriptions of the need for the dash in West Africa.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was palpable.

[Assistant] Which you hadn't been aware of when you were there as a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was palpable.

[Assistant] Which you hadn't been aware of when you were there as a volunteer.

[User] No. The civil service had a kind of a spree, and it was just a complete change.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was a little disheartening, you know, in order to get anything done, you had to use a bribe. And I ran into that as soon as we got into the airport, you had to bribe people to go through customs, you know? Just it was amazing. So there are all kinds of contradictory things. I was pleased to see that many people are doing well. Some of the kids have gone on to school.

[Assistant] Had you been involved with sponsoring or helping any Kenyans to come over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The civil service had a kind of a spree, and it was just a complete change.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was a little disheartening, you know, in order to get anything done, you had to use a bribe. And I ran into that as soon as we got into the airport, you had to bribe people to go through customs, you know? Just it was amazing. So there are all kinds of contradictory things. I was pleased to see that many people are doing well. Some of the kids have gone on to school.

[Assistant] Had you been involved with sponsoring or helping any Kenyans to come over?

[User] Not at that point. Since then.

[Assistant] Okay. Up to '87, yeah. And on that trip back you had through the years been back to Kenya enough that you kept your Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a little disheartening, you know, in order to get anything done, you had to use a bribe. And I ran into that as soon as we got into the airport, you had to bribe people to go through customs, you know? Just it was amazing. So there are all kinds of contradictory things. I was pleased to see that many people are doing well. Some of the kids have gone on to school.

[Assistant] Had you been involved with sponsoring or helping any Kenyans to come over?

[User] Not at that point. Since then.

[Assistant] Okay. Up to '87, yeah. And on that trip back you had through the years been back to Kenya enough that you kept your Swahili?

[User] My Swahili was still quite good. I'd often taught it too, both at the college level and as a co-curricular thing.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I didn't know. We'll talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at that point. Since then.

[Assistant] Okay. Up to '87, yeah. And on that trip back you had through the years been back to Kenya enough that you kept your Swahili?

[User] My Swahili was still quite good. I'd often taught it too, both at the college level and as a co-curricular thing.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I didn't know. We'll talk about that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, in going back to Ol Kalou, you're still, you're. You could converse in Swahili and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My Swahili was still quite good. I'd often taught it too, both at the college level and as a co-curricular thing.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I didn't know. We'll talk about that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, in going back to Ol Kalou, you're still, you're. You could converse in Swahili and?

[User] Pretty easily.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, let's, let's zero back now to a little bit of a narrative. You went to Northwestern and working toward a degree in political science and African studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, in going back to Ol Kalou, you're still, you're. You could converse in Swahili and?

[User] Pretty easily.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, let's, let's zero back now to a little bit of a narrative. You went to Northwestern and working toward a degree in political science and African studies.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, oh, sort of talk about your own continuing relationship with Kenya, where you served as a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty easily.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, let's, let's zero back now to a little bit of a narrative. You went to Northwestern and working toward a degree in political science and African studies.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, oh, sort of talk about your own continuing relationship with Kenya, where you served as a volunteer.

[User] Mm hmm. Um. While I was in Northwestern, the program of African studies, which was a renowned and fabulous program.

[Assistant] Was Herskovits still alive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she was a force of nature too.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And there were all kinds of people in and out of the program as guest lecturers. And Gwen made it her business to invite the next generation of leaders to come and get to do. [inaudible] had been there. And I mean, everybody was there. A fair number of Kenyans were part of the program, some as graduate students, you know, some as guests. So through the program, I kept abreast of what was happening.

Towards the end of the program when I had to design a research project, I clearly designed it to take me back to Kenya. So in '69 to '70, I went back for a year, stayed on the coast, but even in '69 and '70, I'd make trips to Nairobi and once or twice to see people up country. So the time at Northwestern deepened my interest in certain academic knowledge on Africa.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And just cemented what had been, not a lifelong, but damn near a lifelong fascination and connection to that world.

[Assistant] So you were, you got to know a fair number of the political leaders?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And there were all kinds of people in and out of the program as guest lecturers. And Gwen made it her business to invite the next generation of leaders to come and get to do. [inaudible] had been there. And I mean, everybody was there. A fair number of Kenyans were part of the program, some as graduate students, you know, some as guests. So through the program, I kept abreast of what was happening.

Towards the end of the program when I had to design a research project, I clearly designed it to take me back to Kenya. So in '69 to '70, I went back for a year, stayed on the coast, but even in '69 and '70, I'd make trips to Nairobi and once or twice to see people up country. So the time at Northwestern deepened my interest in certain academic knowledge on Africa.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And just cemented what had been, not a lifelong, but damn near a lifelong fascination and connection to that world.

[Assistant] So you were, you got to know a fair number of the political leaders?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was that intentional or just the circle you moved in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And just cemented what had been, not a lifelong, but damn near a lifelong fascination and connection to that world.

[Assistant] So you were, you got to know a fair number of the political leaders?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was that intentional or just the circle you moved in?

[User] Both.

[Assistant] Okay. This is not a trick question. As you became thoroughly knowledgeable about Kenya, at any point were you ever approached by the CIA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both.

[Assistant] Okay. This is not a trick question. As you became thoroughly knowledgeable about Kenya, at any point were you ever approached by the CIA?

[User] Uh uh.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] No. Never, to my surprise.

[Assistant] Or anyone from State?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh uh.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] No. Never, to my surprise.

[Assistant] Or anyone from State?

[User] I was by State because they wanted me to enter. They had a kind of program, almost like AT&T's program, to identify reasonably young people, bring them in, train them, and set them on a career path.

[Assistant] In the Foreign Service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Never, to my surprise.

[Assistant] Or anyone from State?

[User] I was by State because they wanted me to enter. They had a kind of program, almost like AT&T's program, to identify reasonably young people, bring them in, train them, and set them on a career path.

[Assistant] In the Foreign Service?

[User] Yes. And in fact.

[Assistant] You were still a minority at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I had a fairly serious interest in them and Mary and I talked about it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But the academic world is seductive, even if you're not incredibly happy at any point. There aren't many push factors pushing you out, you know.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I thought about the State Department really seriously, talked to people and, uh, but ultimately decided that I'd stay. You know, once I had kids, there should not have been a case, but I think I tended to think more of staying put.

[Assistant] Right. And you ended up at Hampshire College.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the academic world is seductive, even if you're not incredibly happy at any point. There aren't many push factors pushing you out, you know.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I thought about the State Department really seriously, talked to people and, uh, but ultimately decided that I'd stay. You know, once I had kids, there should not have been a case, but I think I tended to think more of staying put.

[Assistant] Right. And you ended up at Hampshire College.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And both as dean and professor on and off through the years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I thought about the State Department really seriously, talked to people and, uh, but ultimately decided that I'd stay. You know, once I had kids, there should not have been a case, but I think I tended to think more of staying put.

[Assistant] Right. And you ended up at Hampshire College.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And both as dean and professor on and off through the years.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you continued to go back to Kenya on a fairly regular basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And both as dean and professor on and off through the years.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you continued to go back to Kenya on a fairly regular basis?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Did you consciously think, you took students on trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you continued to go back to Kenya on a fairly regular basis?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Did you consciously think, you took students on trips?

[User] Sometimes. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, it was part of your mission then to broaden some Americans' understanding of Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Did you consciously think, you took students on trips?

[User] Sometimes. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, it was part of your mission then to broaden some Americans' understanding of Kenya?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Because, you know, that's one of the third purposes, or the second purpose of the Peace Corps, that to. And you were very, you were in a very specific place where you could do that. I mean, far more than many other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Because, you know, that's one of the third purposes, or the second purpose of the Peace Corps, that to. And you were very, you were in a very specific place where you could do that. I mean, far more than many other people.

[User] Right. I did it in two or three ways. One, there were occasions to take students, but I continued to teach about Africa with a special focus on Kenya.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I did sort of local presentations, and I remember doing them for the Lions Club, the World Affairs Council in Springfield. I've done that kind of thing a great many times. Um, at one point I thought of taking an adult group, but couldn't pull it off.

[Assistant] Yeah. Adults are difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did sort of local presentations, and I remember doing them for the Lions Club, the World Affairs Council in Springfield. I've done that kind of thing a great many times. Um, at one point I thought of taking an adult group, but couldn't pull it off.

[Assistant] Yeah. Adults are difficult.

[User] They are. And, you know, if you have an infrastructure, if there's an organization that handles that stuff, you can plug in as the leader, but doing it on your own.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] I thought it would be fun to do, but I didn't find a group that wanted to.

[Assistant] Did any of your children ever express an interest in joining the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought it would be fun to do, but I didn't find a group that wanted to.

[Assistant] Did any of your children ever express an interest in joining the Peace Corps?

[User] No, not really. Not Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] They were interested in going to Africa.

[Assistant] And did any, have any of them going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. Not Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] They were interested in going to Africa.

[Assistant] And did any, have any of them going?

[User] Beth did.

[Assistant] Your oldest daughter, your daughter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were interested in going to Africa.

[Assistant] And did any, have any of them going?

[User] Beth did.

[Assistant] Your oldest daughter, your daughter?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] On her own or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Beth did.

[Assistant] Your oldest daughter, your daughter?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] On her own or?

[User] She went with me.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. To Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] On her own or?

[User] She went with me.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. To Kenya?

[User] To Kenya.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had she studied Swahili prior to the trip?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She went with me.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. To Kenya?

[User] To Kenya.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had she studied Swahili prior to the trip?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. How old was she then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Kenya.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had she studied Swahili prior to the trip?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. How old was she then?

[User] She was mid-twenties.

[Assistant] Oh, so she was in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. How old was she then?

[User] She was mid-twenties.

[Assistant] Oh, so she was in college?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying to think exactly. Maybe 18, you know.

[Assistant] Well, okay. Yeah. And it was just father daughter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying to think exactly. Maybe 18, you know.

[Assistant] Well, okay. Yeah. And it was just father daughter?

[User] Well, what happened. I have this colleague by the name of Frank who is also a Kenya specialist. And we would frequently go during the summers to study, to you know keep abreast of what's happening in Kenya. Contact old friends. And our routine was we usually go end of June because fares would pump and change July 1. We'd stay a month doing work and then we'd come home. So what I arranged, uh, that particular year. Also this friend wrote this book [inaudible].

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He had a real interest in seeing Africa. So I arranged that he and Beth would meet me toward the end of the study period. [phone rings, tape break]

[Assistant] I had to ask if any of your children, and you indicated that you took Beth on one of your trips.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nate is quite interested in going.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He actually has framed a video project, which, you know, it needs some funding, but he's interested in looking at the connections between the street gangs in Chicago and Cape Town, South Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And there are real connections. I mean, he'd go to Kenya with me, too, but this interest is more in line with his work.

[Assistant] Now, that's not Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He actually has framed a video project, which, you know, it needs some funding, but he's interested in looking at the connections between the street gangs in Chicago and Cape Town, South Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And there are real connections. I mean, he'd go to Kenya with me, too, but this interest is more in line with his work.

[Assistant] Now, that's not Peace Corps?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] So you continue to, your involvement with Kenya and kept your Swahili up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there are real connections. I mean, he'd go to Kenya with me, too, but this interest is more in line with his work.

[Assistant] Now, that's not Peace Corps?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] So you continue to, your involvement with Kenya and kept your Swahili up?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] One of the interesting things you did, I think it's probably worth throwing on the tape, uh, when. I don't know if the system is still in place where the Congress had required elections in a country be monitored.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] So you continue to, your involvement with Kenya and kept your Swahili up?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] One of the interesting things you did, I think it's probably worth throwing on the tape, uh, when. I don't know if the system is still in place where the Congress had required elections in a country be monitored.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] One of the interesting things you did, I think it's probably worth throwing on the tape, uh, when. I don't know if the system is still in place where the Congress had required elections in a country be monitored.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that.

[User] I've uh, since the first multiparty election in Kenya, monitored nearly a dozen elections in East Africa. Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda. Zanzibar, which is part of Tanzania. But the elections are separate.

[Assistant] And this is a State Department program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that.

[User] I've uh, since the first multiparty election in Kenya, monitored nearly a dozen elections in East Africa. Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda. Zanzibar, which is part of Tanzania. But the elections are separate.

[Assistant] And this is a State Department program?

[User] It's, actually it's encouraged by State and the funding initially was through AID. Now it's more private. The same institutions are involved. There were four or five. There was the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the Africa-American Institute, the National Foundation for Electoral Systems, and the Carter Center.

[Assistant] And their interest is what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've uh, since the first multiparty election in Kenya, monitored nearly a dozen elections in East Africa. Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda. Zanzibar, which is part of Tanzania. But the elections are separate.

[Assistant] And this is a State Department program?

[User] It's, actually it's encouraged by State and the funding initially was through AID. Now it's more private. The same institutions are involved. There were four or five. There was the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the Africa-American Institute, the National Foundation for Electoral Systems, and the Carter Center.

[Assistant] And their interest is what?

[User]
They each have a strong international focus. And some of them specifically are focused on Africa, like the Africa-American Institute. But others have Africa as one of the areas that are of major interest. And in each case, one of the things that really is at the center of their interest is notions of governance. And they all have governance programs of one kind or another. And elections clearly are part of the sort of structure of governance and in Africa, really beginning in the early '90s, finally having succession, you know, sort of independence leaders were passing on.

And the question becomes, you know, how is that succession going to be organized? And in many cases, it's not through a democratic process. But the election observation is designed together with probably the U.N. and other places to foster that kind of peaceful and democratic succession process. So I've done election monitoring in presidential elections, parliamentary, local government. The most recent which was Zanzibar in 2005.

[Assistant] And you were, you were picked because you are knowledgeable about East Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's, actually it's encouraged by State and the funding initially was through AID. Now it's more private. The same institutions are involved. There were four or five. There was the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the Africa-American Institute, the National Foundation for Electoral Systems, and the Carter Center.

[Assistant] And their interest is what?

[User]
They each have a strong international focus. And some of them specifically are focused on Africa, like the Africa-American Institute. But others have Africa as one of the areas that are of major interest. And in each case, one of the things that really is at the center of their interest is notions of governance. And they all have governance programs of one kind or another. And elections clearly are part of the sort of structure of governance and in Africa, really beginning in the early '90s, finally having succession, you know, sort of independence leaders were passing on.

And the question becomes, you know, how is that succession going to be organized? And in many cases, it's not through a democratic process. But the election observation is designed together with probably the U.N. and other places to foster that kind of peaceful and democratic succession process. So I've done election monitoring in presidential elections, parliamentary, local government. The most recent which was Zanzibar in 2005.

[Assistant] And you were, you were picked because you are knowledgeable about East Africa?

[User] Yes. Yes. And probably knowing Swahili doesn't hurt, although many other people don't and they're are also selected. But just knowing about Kenya.

[Assistant] Has it led you into any embarrassing exchanges where people don't know you know Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. Although it wasn't embarrassing for me. No. On a number of occasions. And, you know, sometimes, I must confess, sometimes I've used that, you know. I was at the coast in Kenya monitoring Mombasa election places, and guys at the site were openly discussing the fact that they were going to bribe people. And I was standing around looking like a goofy American, like all the others, you know. And I knew exactly what they were saying.

And in fact, I was on BBC because they interviewed me. I turned in a report, which you're supposed to, not supposed to interfere but you can observe and go to court. And I reported this one guy who was openly bribing people. He would give them the party symbol that he wanted them to vote for, and they had to go in and do that. And then when they came back out, I've forgotten how they demonstrated that they've done it but, and he paid them. And I heard him doing it. I saw him doing it in the line.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I reported it, you know. And BBC did a sort of cute tongue in cheek thing where Ford K was one of the parties, and there were two Ford parties. And at the end of it, the reporter said, your name is Michael Ford. And I said yes. And he said, is that Ford K or Ford A?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, yeah, there have been a couple of occasions where people didn't know I spoke Swahili and assumed, oh, American. I made it useful.

[Assistant] One last question that now in 2008, it's an issue that's boiled up some and there is the possibility that Peace Corps may expand under a new government. Some people question, you know, what's the value of Peace Corps? And not thinking in 1960s terms when our perceptions may have been different, but what's your feeling now? I mean, what is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, yeah, there have been a couple of occasions where people didn't know I spoke Swahili and assumed, oh, American. I made it useful.

[Assistant] One last question that now in 2008, it's an issue that's boiled up some and there is the possibility that Peace Corps may expand under a new government. Some people question, you know, what's the value of Peace Corps? And not thinking in 1960s terms when our perceptions may have been different, but what's your feeling now? I mean, what is?

[User] I think it's even more valuable to citizens of this country to have an organization like Peace Corps. You know, over the years, because of, I think, stupid, shortsighted, mal-intentioned foreign policy, it's just really true that a hell of a lot of people don't think a lot of this country.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I think, in my experience, good, sincere, thoughtful Peace Corps people can and have made a difference even in a context where there is suspicion about the country.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think, in my experience, good, sincere, thoughtful Peace Corps people can and have made a difference even in a context where there is suspicion about the country.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Right.

[User] I don't think there's been a period in my life when we've been less well-regarded, even when there was talk about the Ugly Americans.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I think a rejuvenated, expanded Peace Corps could make a significant difference.

[Assistant] Do you think it would be possible to create a genuine international Peace Corps that was not American dominated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think a rejuvenated, expanded Peace Corps could make a significant difference.

[Assistant] Do you think it would be possible to create a genuine international Peace Corps that was not American dominated?

[User] I think you could certainly make a start. I mean, I remember when I was in Kenya, Cuso, the Canadian volunteers.

[Assistant] Canadian, yeah.

[User] And there were English volunteers, and occasionally we'd get together and talk and, uh, had many of the same values. I don't mean that those are the only ones. They're just examples I think of institutions that had the same mission. And we could talk and we could agree and we'd learn from each other. So, yeah, I think it's possible. What would be really fun is if there were non-Western groups like India that became a part of it.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They've put the applications on hold.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] They tell me that they'll probably reopen them in the spring.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But, you know, the good Lord willing and the creek don't mind, if my health will allow, I intend to apply and I really would want to do it in Africa.

[Assistant] But anywhere you can make it, if you don't, you know, they have to accommodate to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, the good Lord willing and the creek don't mind, if my health will allow, I intend to apply and I really would want to do it in Africa.

[Assistant] But anywhere you can make it, if you don't, you know, they have to accommodate to you.

[User] Yeah. So I would, you know, I'm not interested in a bureaucratic position in D.C.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I wouldn't want to be the regional director for act, but a country director would be.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's consistent with your experience through the years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Assistant] We appreciate you coming in to talk to us. Can you share with us briefly your background before coming to SpaceX, and then your role here?

[User] Sure. I had always had a strong interest in space and space industry, but after graduating engineering school, I found I didn’t want to work for the big bureaucratic companies that were dominating the industry. I went and worked for some consulting firms doing technology and product development, and then onto strategy consulting. After finding that not very fulfilling, I turned back to space. I went back to graduate school, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge], to pursue a Master’s in aerospace engineering and an MBA [Master of Business Administration], with the express purpose of doing something entrepreneurial in space. While I was there I heard about SpaceX, and it seemed like a perfect fit. So immediately before here, I was at grad school.\n\n Here at SpaceX, I’m the Senior Mission Manager for COTS [Commercial Orbital Transportation Services] and CRS, the Commercial Resupply Services. In that role, I’m the primary point of contact with NASA for all programmatic issues, and I’m sort of the overall project coordinator for the missions.

[Assistant] Why did they put you in that role, with your background?

[User] I think my background ended up being really a perfect fit. I had been in customer interfacing roles in the consulting industry, and had done business and strategy work, which is just part of the job. It’s very much a management job. I had also developed new technologies and new products, and understood what that took to get big, complex systems into a final ready state. I was able to talk to the customer and manage the project on that side, as well as talk internally to the technical folks, and be respected and knowledgeable about what they were doing.

[Assistant] You really are kind of the middle man.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I had always had a strong interest in space and space industry, but after graduating engineering school, I found I didn’t want to work for the big bureaucratic companies that were dominating the industry. I went and worked for some consulting firms doing technology and product development, and then onto strategy consulting. After finding that not very fulfilling, I turned back to space. I went back to graduate school, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge], to pursue a Master’s in aerospace engineering and an MBA [Master of Business Administration], with the express purpose of doing something entrepreneurial in space. While I was there I heard about SpaceX, and it seemed like a perfect fit. So immediately before here, I was at grad school.\n\n Here at SpaceX, I’m the Senior Mission Manager for COTS [Commercial Orbital Transportation Services] and CRS, the Commercial Resupply Services. In that role, I’m the primary point of contact with NASA for all programmatic issues, and I’m sort of the overall project coordinator for the missions.

[Assistant] Why did they put you in that role, with your background?

[User] I think my background ended up being really a perfect fit. I had been in customer interfacing roles in the consulting industry, and had done business and strategy work, which is just part of the job. It’s very much a management job. I had also developed new technologies and new products, and understood what that took to get big, complex systems into a final ready state. I was able to talk to the customer and manage the project on that side, as well as talk internally to the technical folks, and be respected and knowledgeable about what they were doing.

[Assistant] You really are kind of the middle man.

[User] I’m very much a middle man.

[Assistant] Share with us what was going on when you walked in the door as far as the COTS program. Had you already received the knowledge that SpaceX had been awarded a Space Act Agreement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my background ended up being really a perfect fit. I had been in customer interfacing roles in the consulting industry, and had done business and strategy work, which is just part of the job. It’s very much a management job. I had also developed new technologies and new products, and understood what that took to get big, complex systems into a final ready state. I was able to talk to the customer and manage the project on that side, as well as talk internally to the technical folks, and be respected and knowledgeable about what they were doing.

[Assistant] You really are kind of the middle man.

[User] I’m very much a middle man.

[Assistant] Share with us what was going on when you walked in the door as far as the COTS program. Had you already received the knowledge that SpaceX had been awarded a Space Act Agreement?

[User] I joined the company October 2006, and we had just received the COTS award. When I joined, my immediate assignments were commercial satellite missions. For two years I worked on those missions and was only loosely involved in the COTS program. Then we won the CRS contract, and I was made the mission manager for that program.\n\n That was in 2008, and over the next year my experience working with NASA for the commercial cargo missions—SpaceX senior management had referred the responsibility of COTS to me as folks either moved on or didn’t work out at SpaceX. I was able to leverage the experience I already had from CRS onto COTS and see it through to the end.

[Assistant] The commercial satellite missions that you were working on, that was kind of an industry-to-industry relationship. Is it safe to say this might have been your first industry-to-federal institution relationship that you had to work with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m very much a middle man.

[Assistant] Share with us what was going on when you walked in the door as far as the COTS program. Had you already received the knowledge that SpaceX had been awarded a Space Act Agreement?

[User] I joined the company October 2006, and we had just received the COTS award. When I joined, my immediate assignments were commercial satellite missions. For two years I worked on those missions and was only loosely involved in the COTS program. Then we won the CRS contract, and I was made the mission manager for that program.\n\n That was in 2008, and over the next year my experience working with NASA for the commercial cargo missions—SpaceX senior management had referred the responsibility of COTS to me as folks either moved on or didn’t work out at SpaceX. I was able to leverage the experience I already had from CRS onto COTS and see it through to the end.

[Assistant] The commercial satellite missions that you were working on, that was kind of an industry-to-industry relationship. Is it safe to say this might have been your first industry-to-federal institution relationship that you had to work with?

[User] Certainly my first industry-to-NASA institution. I had worked with some other federal bodies, FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] in my time here, and some of the energy industries in a past career, but this is my most intense involvement with a government agency.

[Assistant] Share with us some of the first conversations you had with NASA, and how that relationship began to grow. Especially since for NASA this was a different way of doing business, with commercial partners.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Certainly my first industry-to-NASA institution. I had worked with some other federal bodies, FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] in my time here, and some of the energy industries in a past career, but this is my most intense involvement with a government agency.

[Assistant] Share with us some of the first conversations you had with NASA, and how that relationship began to grow. Especially since for NASA this was a different way of doing business, with commercial partners.

[User] Very much. The early conversations that I was part of were very encouraging, with NASA telling us that they wanted to do things differently, more streamlined, more commercial, and wanted to give us a lot of leeway in the way we did things. I was excited, and I remained excited to work on the programs. I think they’ve done a great job in that.\n\n Particularly the COTS program, giving us the freedom to develop how we see appropriate, while of course meeting all of their requirements and standards. SpaceX is seeing a streamlined version of how I think NASA typically works, but it’s still very big and very bureaucratic compared to what a lot of other folks—at least the early folks at SpaceX—are used to dealing with. That’s been a personal challenge for me.

[Assistant] Can you give us some examples of items that you found that fell into that category?

[User] Most of it tends to be around documentation and updates in status, whereas a lot of folks, including myself here, really just want to get the job done. That’s the right thing to do, and do it correctly. Having us spend a lot of time documenting what we’ve done so that other people can review is something we needed to come to terms with. We understand why, but it’s not the way we’d prefer to spend our time.

[Assistant] Working in a NASA environment, I know there’s a definite structure of how the documentation proceeds. Without divulging internal secrets, can you give us an example—I’m sure you have to keep some documentation to show how you got from Point A to Point C. What is it that you do here that is a contrast to NASA’s method?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were working with the ISS office anyways under COTS because they owned the ISS interface, even though the COTS office managed the Space Act. At least we were already familiar with Kathy [Kathryn L.] Lueders and her team. Having CRS in parallel with COTS was very challenging for me personally, because now I was the primary point of contact for both parties.\n\n I found that the COTS office seemed to me smaller and more streamlined. I’m not sure what was going on in the backend, but to me it was a little more streamlined, whereas the CRS office and the ISS office seemed a lot bigger, and I had a lot more folks to work with and satisfy. All the ISS integration activities went through that office as well, which was a massive amount of work. It was challenging, and a little different.

[Assistant] Because you are doing rocket science, as you started to build more hardware some of the milestones started to slip a little bit. Did you ever fear that NASA would terminate the Space Act Agreement because of those milestone slips?

[User] I was never really worried about that. Even though things were taking longer, I personally thought the milestones were fairly aggressively scheduled anyways, and we were always making solid, consistent progress. I don’t know the threshold by which NASA would’ve stuck by us, but it felt to me like we had the same common goal, for us to be successful both as a service to NASA and for us to be a successful private company. I never worried they were going to leave us or terminate.

[Assistant] You said you entered shortly after the first COTS award was announced. Did you have any involvement in any of the other proposals, the COTS Round 2, or the CCDev [Commercial Crew Development]?

[User] No, I wasn’t involved in those. I think my plate’s full.

[Assistant]
Thank you.

How important do you think NASA’s partnership with SpaceX impacted your progress in developing your technology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was never really worried about that. Even though things were taking longer, I personally thought the milestones were fairly aggressively scheduled anyways, and we were always making solid, consistent progress. I don’t know the threshold by which NASA would’ve stuck by us, but it felt to me like we had the same common goal, for us to be successful both as a service to NASA and for us to be a successful private company. I never worried they were going to leave us or terminate.

[Assistant] You said you entered shortly after the first COTS award was announced. Did you have any involvement in any of the other proposals, the COTS Round 2, or the CCDev [Commercial Crew Development]?

[User] No, I wasn’t involved in those. I think my plate’s full.

[Assistant]
Thank you.

How important do you think NASA’s partnership with SpaceX impacted your progress in developing your technology?

[User] I think it was critically important. They’ve been a partner with us for a long time, and I think we were able to draw on their expertise. Certainly, having the contract with known financial milestones helped us with the time we needed to develop our technology. Generally, just their support throughout the program has, I think, helped make SpaceX successful. Also, probably a more robust vehicle in the end by having to meet ISS integration requirements and other things along the way. I think we probably ended up with a better vehicle because of it.

[Assistant] I understand that there was never a question that although you didn’t have to, your vehicle was going to the Station [to demonstrate its cargo capabilities]. When you were doing all of the work for it, you were making sure that it met all those requirements to be able to berth at the Station.