[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they spoke French.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And then I lived with a Bambara family.

[Assistant] Ah. And Bambara is one of the African groups in Mauritania?

[User] And they were originally, they speak Bambara. So I think Malians, there's a group from Mali that speaks that are Bambara.

[Assistant] Bambara. But with them you spoke French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I lived with a Bambara family.

[Assistant] Ah. And Bambara is one of the African groups in Mauritania?

[User] And they were originally, they speak Bambara. So I think Malians, there's a group from Mali that speaks that are Bambara.

[Assistant] Bambara. But with them you spoke French?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because Peace Corps training had not included Bambara?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were originally, they speak Bambara. So I think Malians, there's a group from Mali that speaks that are Bambara.

[Assistant] Bambara. But with them you spoke French?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because Peace Corps training had not included Bambara?

[User] No.

[Assistant] There's no way you can learn it out when you're trying to function in a job. So did, did you sort of give up on agricultural work at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. You know, I, um, I worked with another Peace Corps volunteer who was a health volunteer, Phoebe Jones, and she and I worked in school, and I would do the agriculture, planting, gardening, and she would work on the health component.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So her and I partnered.

[Assistant] Very nice.

[User] I worked in school. Yeah. Now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Totally different work situation, radically different from just ten miles away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So her and I partnered.

[Assistant] Very nice.

[User] I worked in school. Yeah. Now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Totally different work situation, radically different from just ten miles away.

[User] Correct. And that was really nice.

[Assistant] Ten miles was a world apart.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked in school. Yeah. Now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Totally different work situation, radically different from just ten miles away.

[User] Correct. And that was really nice.

[Assistant] Ten miles was a world apart.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did you live in Ayoun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. And that was really nice.

[Assistant] Ten miles was a world apart.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did you live in Ayoun?

[User] So I lived with a family in Ayoun.

[Assistant] A family. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did you live in Ayoun?

[User] So I lived with a family in Ayoun.

[Assistant] A family. Okay.

[User] So I lived inside a compound.

[Assistant] Okay. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I lived inside a compound.

[Assistant] Okay. What was that like?

[User] You know, that was wonderful. I loved it. Yeah. So a house with kids. Um, one, the oldest, young, the oldest daughter, when I moved in, was just getting ready to come to the States. Her husband was working on a PhD. So she left. And then the younger, her sister, who was 16, Aminatou. And, um, so we, you know. Yeah, it was great. It was wonderful, I loved it. I loved being part of a family.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And, um, I'm writing down Aminatou here. Um, and in that family, the, the host mother did the cooking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, that was wonderful. I loved it. Yeah. So a house with kids. Um, one, the oldest, young, the oldest daughter, when I moved in, was just getting ready to come to the States. Her husband was working on a PhD. So she left. And then the younger, her sister, who was 16, Aminatou. And, um, so we, you know. Yeah, it was great. It was wonderful, I loved it. I loved being part of a family.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And, um, I'm writing down Aminatou here. Um, and in that family, the, the host mother did the cooking?

[User] Yes. And, and the young lady, Aminatou, she was also a lot responsible more for, she would go to school, but then responsible for doing things in the house.

[Assistant] In the house. And did you get some vegetables into your diet there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And, um, I'm writing down Aminatou here. Um, and in that family, the, the host mother did the cooking?

[User] Yes. And, and the young lady, Aminatou, she was also a lot responsible more for, she would go to school, but then responsible for doing things in the house.

[Assistant] In the house. And did you get some vegetables into your diet there?

[User] Yeah. They, they ate a little bit more green.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it was still basically meat and couscous or rice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They, they ate a little bit more green.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it was still basically meat and couscous or rice?

[User] Um, and fish.

[Assistant] And fish.

[User] Fish. Yeah. Because this is the Black Africans. So they did the couscous with the peanut sauce. The Moor diet was basically couscous, you know, roasted meat and, um, couscous with milk or.

[Assistant] Yeah. Mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and fish.

[Assistant] And fish.

[User] Fish. Yeah. Because this is the Black Africans. So they did the couscous with the peanut sauce. The Moor diet was basically couscous, you know, roasted meat and, um, couscous with milk or.

[Assistant] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[User] Whereas the Black Africans had rice, fish, fish with vegetables.

[Assistant] Where would the fish come from? How close to the coast are you here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fish. Yeah. Because this is the Black Africans. So they did the couscous with the peanut sauce. The Moor diet was basically couscous, you know, roasted meat and, um, couscous with milk or.

[Assistant] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[User] Whereas the Black Africans had rice, fish, fish with vegetables.

[Assistant] Where would the fish come from? How close to the coast are you here?

[User] We were not close to the coast. I think it probably came from, oh, people bring it in. That's right. There was a truck that would come in.

[Assistant] From the coast?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were not close to the coast. I think it probably came from, oh, people bring it in. That's right. There was a truck that would come in.

[Assistant] From the coast?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And would, uh, with a freezer, sell fish.

[Assistant] Okay. So you're still in desert?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And would, uh, with a freezer, sell fish.

[Assistant] Okay. So you're still in desert?

[User] Yes. But there are, uh, Ayoun has, uh, you know, was a, was a, um, colonial town, so it had a grid.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So you had mud houses, but mud compounds, but yeah. It had a, you know, there were streets.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you have a compound where the walls are made of mud.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But there are, uh, Ayoun has, uh, you know, was a, was a, um, colonial town, so it had a grid.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So you had mud houses, but mud compounds, but yeah. It had a, you know, there were streets.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you have a compound where the walls are made of mud.

[User] Correct. Baked adobe sort of things.

[Assistant] And was your house like that too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you had mud houses, but mud compounds, but yeah. It had a, you know, there were streets.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you have a compound where the walls are made of mud.

[User] Correct. Baked adobe sort of things.

[Assistant] And was your house like that too?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what did you say, and rocks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. Baked adobe sort of things.

[Assistant] And was your house like that too?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what did you say, and rocks?

[User] And rocks. Because this, Ayoun is very rocky.

[Assistant] Ah. Did you have a room yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what did you say, and rocks?

[User] And rocks. Because this, Ayoun is very rocky.

[Assistant] Ah. Did you have a room yourself?

[User] I did, I have a one room. Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you slept inside or inside?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And rocks. Because this, Ayoun is very rocky.

[Assistant] Ah. Did you have a room yourself?

[User] I did, I have a one room. Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you slept inside or inside?

[User] Inside.

[Assistant] Okay. This is really quite different from that experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, I have a one room. Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you slept inside or inside?

[User] Inside.

[Assistant] Okay. This is really quite different from that experience.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How difficult and how rich that experience had been up in Mekanet that now you can sort of, uh, relax from that and get some work done. Wow. Kids in that family? You talked about Aminatou.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How difficult and how rich that experience had been up in Mekanet that now you can sort of, uh, relax from that and get some work done. Wow. Kids in that family? You talked about Aminatou.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Young kids.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Um, and then Aminatu was a young lady, so maybe 15, 16. Her older sister who was leaving, Aisha, she was, I think it must have been 18 or 19. So that was, you know, that. I mean, there was an eye opener because I noticed that people would socialize in the evening, like the young people would get together. Yeah. So it was very different, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. And to drink, you would be drinking tea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Young kids.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Um, and then Aminatu was a young lady, so maybe 15, 16. Her older sister who was leaving, Aisha, she was, I think it must have been 18 or 19. So that was, you know, that. I mean, there was an eye opener because I noticed that people would socialize in the evening, like the young people would get together. Yeah. So it was very different, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. And to drink, you would be drinking tea?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And again no alcohol?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And again no alcohol?

[User] No alcohol. It was a dry country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean there was alcohol, but I don't know where.

[Assistant] You were probably encouraged, if you found out, not to join in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No alcohol. It was a dry country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean there was alcohol, but I don't know where.

[Assistant] You were probably encouraged, if you found out, not to join in.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was probably all men.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean there was alcohol, but I don't know where.

[Assistant] You were probably encouraged, if you found out, not to join in.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was probably all men.

[User] Yes. That's right.

[Assistant] So, um, do you have electricity now, in Ayoun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's right.

[Assistant] So, um, do you have electricity now, in Ayoun?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Running water?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] And there's a latrine that's not too far away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Running water?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] And there's a latrine that's not too far away.

[User] Yes. That's on the compound. Inside the compound.

[Assistant] Okay. So let's talk about the work. You mentioned, let's talk a little bit more. You started talking about how, um, you partnered with, with Phoebe, Phoebe Jones, and you were doing the agricultural.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's on the compound. Inside the compound.

[Assistant] Okay. So let's talk about the work. You mentioned, let's talk a little bit more. You started talking about how, um, you partnered with, with Phoebe, Phoebe Jones, and you were doing the agricultural.

[User] Yeah. So that was interesting. And we would go to school and she would do the health.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Um, of eating vegetables and washing your hands. And then I would work with the students to work on the planting of the garden.

[Assistant] Oh, boy. How fun, school garden.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that was interesting. And we would go to school and she would do the health.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Um, of eating vegetables and washing your hands. And then I would work with the students to work on the planting of the garden.

[Assistant] Oh, boy. How fun, school garden.

[User] I know, so that worked out. Yeah, that worked out well.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And was it one school or did you travel around to various schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know, so that worked out. Yeah, that worked out well.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And was it one school or did you travel around to various schools?

[User] You know, we traveled to schools, but I don't remember how many. I do remember just traveling.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah. And then I worked with women, uh, these market women, teaching them how to write the numbers.

[Assistant] Oh good. How to write them in Arabic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we traveled to schools, but I don't remember how many. I do remember just traveling.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah. And then I worked with women, uh, these market women, teaching them how to write the numbers.

[Assistant] Oh good. How to write them in Arabic?

[User] No, no. Numbers.

[Assistant] No, these are, these are not Arabic speakers. In our alphabet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then I worked with women, uh, these market women, teaching them how to write the numbers.

[Assistant] Oh good. How to write them in Arabic?

[User] No, no. Numbers.

[Assistant] No, these are, these are not Arabic speakers. In our alphabet.

[User] Yes. Because they knew the number. They knew how to do math, but they didn't know how to write it.

[Assistant] Aha. Wow. To have to do all that math in their head is another skill.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then I also, um, when I was there, I worked with, uh, like a women's cooperative planting trees. So, you know, different things. It was good.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It worked out well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Better situation than my first one.

[Assistant] Clearly, clearly. And so you stayed there for how long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked out well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Better situation than my first one.

[Assistant] Clearly, clearly. And so you stayed there for how long?

[User] Well, I stayed there until the Gulf War. And then that's when we were pulled out.

[Assistant] And the Gulf War. Now the Gulf is way far away from Mauritania.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Better situation than my first one.

[Assistant] Clearly, clearly. And so you stayed there for how long?

[User] Well, I stayed there until the Gulf War. And then that's when we were pulled out.

[Assistant] And the Gulf War. Now the Gulf is way far away from Mauritania.

[User] Yes. But Mauritania received the family of Saddam Hussein. So we were pulled out.

[Assistant] Oh, Saddam. Saddam Hussein.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I stayed there until the Gulf War. And then that's when we were pulled out.

[Assistant] And the Gulf War. Now the Gulf is way far away from Mauritania.

[User] Yes. But Mauritania received the family of Saddam Hussein. So we were pulled out.

[Assistant] Oh, Saddam. Saddam Hussein.

[User] Sent his family.

[Assistant] Sent his family to Mauritania, at which point that meant that Peace Corps had to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Peace Corps pulled out of the Arab countries.

[Assistant] Did they think it was unsafe or just a political?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Peace Corps pulled out of the Arab countries.

[Assistant] Did they think it was unsafe or just a political?

[User] Unsafe. Um, I think they thought it was unsafe. I mean, they went to a skeleton crew even in the embassy.

[Assistant] Okay. So when was it that you were pulled out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps pulled out of the Arab countries.

[Assistant] Did they think it was unsafe or just a political?

[User] Unsafe. Um, I think they thought it was unsafe. I mean, they went to a skeleton crew even in the embassy.

[Assistant] Okay. So when was it that you were pulled out?

[User] That was January. I think January 20th, maybe something like that, of 1990.

[Assistant] It must have been '91.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Unsafe. Um, I think they thought it was unsafe. I mean, they went to a skeleton crew even in the embassy.

[Assistant] Okay. So when was it that you were pulled out?

[User] That was January. I think January 20th, maybe something like that, of 1990.

[Assistant] It must have been '91.

[User] Yes. Right.

[Assistant] And then you went to Peace Corps Mali.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was January. I think January 20th, maybe something like that, of 1990.

[Assistant] It must have been '91.

[User] Yes. Right.

[Assistant] And then you went to Peace Corps Mali.

[User] So we all went to Peace Corps Mali.

[Assistant] All of you from Mauritania.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Right.

[Assistant] And then you went to Peace Corps Mali.

[User] So we all went to Peace Corps Mali.

[Assistant] All of you from Mauritania.

[User] The plane took us, took, it was a charter plane. And they picked up all the volunteers who were called in during that Christmas. So traditionally, Christmas we would have a conference in Nouakchott. So we all came in for the conference.

[Assistant] For the conference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we all went to Peace Corps Mali.

[Assistant] All of you from Mauritania.

[User] The plane took us, took, it was a charter plane. And they picked up all the volunteers who were called in during that Christmas. So traditionally, Christmas we would have a conference in Nouakchott. So we all came in for the conference.

[Assistant] For the conference.

[User] But from there we got on a.

[Assistant] Now, wait. Did you know that was going to happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The plane took us, took, it was a charter plane. And they picked up all the volunteers who were called in during that Christmas. So traditionally, Christmas we would have a conference in Nouakchott. So we all came in for the conference.

[Assistant] For the conference.

[User] But from there we got on a.

[Assistant] Now, wait. Did you know that was going to happen?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you left stuff behind in Ayoun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But from there we got on a.

[Assistant] Now, wait. Did you know that was going to happen?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you left stuff behind in Ayoun?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Things that you maybe, your trunk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Things that you maybe, your trunk.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Your books.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Oh man. How hard. And, and you had to leave it all behind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Your books.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Oh man. How hard. And, and you had to leave it all behind.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And get on a plane. You left clothes behind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Oh man. How hard. And, and you had to leave it all behind.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And get on a plane. You left clothes behind.

[User] Everything. Yeah. You just had whatever you had.

[Assistant] Whatever you had with you to go to a conference that was going to be a pretty short conference. Woof. You get on a plane and you go to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mali. And we were there.

[Assistant] Bamako?

[User] Bamako. And then we were there for, um, a few days. And then Peace Corps gave you the option of terminating your service or continuing.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So that's.

[Assistant] So you didn't have that option in Mauritania at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bamako. And then we were there for, um, a few days. And then Peace Corps gave you the option of terminating your service or continuing.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So that's.

[Assistant] So you didn't have that option in Mauritania at all.

[User] No.

[Assistant] They wanted, they didn't even want you to think or talk about anything until you got out of that. They wanted to get you out of there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's.

[Assistant] So you didn't have that option in Mauritania at all.

[User] No.

[Assistant] They wanted, they didn't even want you to think or talk about anything until you got out of that. They wanted to get you out of there.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. So you're in Bamako. And what, what was the ratio of people who chose to go home or people who chose to extend, uh, in Mali?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, the people who extended were very small, I think, in Mali. Um, so I, I remained a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And two other people decided to stay and work for an NGO.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] One woman went to Chad. Um, so I would say Mauritania had probably less than 50 volunteers. Uh, five people maybe stayed as volunteers.

[Assistant] Okay. And the rest just.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And two other people decided to stay and work for an NGO.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] One woman went to Chad. Um, so I would say Mauritania had probably less than 50 volunteers. Uh, five people maybe stayed as volunteers.

[Assistant] Okay. And the rest just.

[User] Most people left. Yeah. Most people left or, uh, those who didn't, who weren't volunteers stayed and worked in Africa, were working in Africa.

[Assistant] For some NGOs. Um, did Peace Corps or anybody compensate you for all that you had to leave behind in Mauritania?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One woman went to Chad. Um, so I would say Mauritania had probably less than 50 volunteers. Uh, five people maybe stayed as volunteers.

[Assistant] Okay. And the rest just.

[User] Most people left. Yeah. Most people left or, uh, those who didn't, who weren't volunteers stayed and worked in Africa, were working in Africa.

[Assistant] For some NGOs. Um, did Peace Corps or anybody compensate you for all that you had to leave behind in Mauritania?

[User] No.

[Assistant] If you're going to stay in Mali and work, you're going to have to go shopping. You need clothes. You need books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] If you're going to stay in Mali and work, you're going to have to go shopping. You need clothes. You need books.

[User] Yeah. They didn't. Nothing.

[Assistant] Nothing.

[User] Yeah, that was weird.

[Assistant] That seems very harsh. So, okay. But you decided to stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And then I went up to Peace Corps Gao.

[Assistant] Why? Why?

[User] You know, I wasn't ready to come back home.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] It was weird.

[Assistant] You wanted, you had thought you'd have more time in Africa and you wanted that whole experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, sure.

[User] So I extended and I was posted in Peace Corps Gao in Mali.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Which is, and that was a 30 hour bus ride from Bamako. That was a nightmare.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I extended and I was posted in Peace Corps Gao in Mali.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Which is, and that was a 30 hour bus ride from Bamako. That was a nightmare.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] God. Um.

[Assistant] Did you go with somebody?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is, and that was a 30 hour bus ride from Bamako. That was a nightmare.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] God. Um.

[Assistant] Did you go with somebody?

[User] I did. Luckily, I did go with someone. Another woman, another volunteer. She was one of the volunteers who extended from Mauritania.

[Assistant] From Mauritania. Okay. So you knew her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] God. Um.

[Assistant] Did you go with somebody?

[User] I did. Luckily, I did go with someone. Another woman, another volunteer. She was one of the volunteers who extended from Mauritania.

[Assistant] From Mauritania. Okay. So you knew her?

[User] Yes. And, uh.

[Assistant] But it wasn't Phoebe Jones.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Phoebe decided to leave.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And, um, so I went with this woman. Um, unfortunately, she didn't cover her head. So we were on this bus, and we were. At one point, like, eight Tuareg heavily armed men got on our bus. So that was the beginning of knowing that we were going somewhere that was very far away.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Um, so that was kind of an uncomfortable. Um.

[Assistant] But when you mentioned that you didn't cover her head.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, so I went with this woman. Um, unfortunately, she didn't cover her head. So we were on this bus, and we were. At one point, like, eight Tuareg heavily armed men got on our bus. So that was the beginning of knowing that we were going somewhere that was very far away.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Um, so that was kind of an uncomfortable. Um.

[Assistant] But when you mentioned that you didn't cover her head.

[User] Well, she didn't cover, yeah. So she.

[Assistant] Against the sand, you mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were moving north, it was more and more Arab looking.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And some of it were not Arab. They could have been Tuareg. Just, they were just covered.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So, you know, you would.

[Assistant] And the women too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And some of it were not Arab. They could have been Tuareg. Just, they were just covered.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So, you know, you would.

[Assistant] And the women too?

[User] Yes. So in a situation like that, you just make sure you cover yourself too. You don't want to stand out.

[Assistant] That's right. So. That's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know, you would.

[Assistant] And the women too?

[User] Yes. So in a situation like that, you just make sure you cover yourself too. You don't want to stand out.

[Assistant] That's right. So. That's right.

[User] So we stood out on that bus.

[Assistant] Did you have a scarf on your head?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So in a situation like that, you just make sure you cover yourself too. You don't want to stand out.

[Assistant] That's right. So. That's right.

[User] So we stood out on that bus.

[Assistant] Did you have a scarf on your head?

[User] I did have a scarf but she didn't.

[Assistant] Did you cover your face?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did have a scarf but she didn't.

[Assistant] Did you cover your face?

[User] I didn't cover my face, but. And I could pass actually as a Moor if I didn't speak. Um, I don't remember if she was a blond, but she, we stood out.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] So we got a lot of stares, which was uncomfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah. Um, I would think that after her time in Mauritania, she would have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't cover my face, but. And I could pass actually as a Moor if I didn't speak. Um, I don't remember if she was a blond, but she, we stood out.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] So we got a lot of stares, which was uncomfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah. Um, I would think that after her time in Mauritania, she would have.

[User] Yeah, but she was a teacher, so she was in the capital.

[Assistant] Okay, that's, that is different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we got a lot of stares, which was uncomfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah. Um, I would think that after her time in Mauritania, she would have.

[User] Yeah, but she was a teacher, so she was in the capital.

[Assistant] Okay, that's, that is different.

[User] Yeah. And, um, so we got to our site and there was nobody waiting for us. So after this 30 hour bus ride, we arrive and there's no one waiting. The Peace Corps volunteer, we were told there was a Peace Corps volunteer up there. She doesn't know who we are. So, um, we actually were sent to the Vision, World Vision house, and the person there told us that they had just had a bunch of visitors and they just needed a little bit of rest. So they didn't have room for us. So we had to wait and find this Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] And you've been, you've been on the road for 30 hours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but she was a teacher, so she was in the capital.

[Assistant] Okay, that's, that is different.

[User] Yeah. And, um, so we got to our site and there was nobody waiting for us. So after this 30 hour bus ride, we arrive and there's no one waiting. The Peace Corps volunteer, we were told there was a Peace Corps volunteer up there. She doesn't know who we are. So, um, we actually were sent to the Vision, World Vision house, and the person there told us that they had just had a bunch of visitors and they just needed a little bit of rest. So they didn't have room for us. So we had to wait and find this Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] And you've been, you've been on the road for 30 hours.

[User] Oh, it was a nightmare. And, um, you know, we are, we had to. The driver then said, well, the Peace Corps volunteer is not there. Why don't you come to my house, rest, take a shower, have something to eat, and then we'll go look for her again in the afternoon. So that's what we did.

[Assistant] That's kind of risky, but it turned out okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And, um, so we got to our site and there was nobody waiting for us. So after this 30 hour bus ride, we arrive and there's no one waiting. The Peace Corps volunteer, we were told there was a Peace Corps volunteer up there. She doesn't know who we are. So, um, we actually were sent to the Vision, World Vision house, and the person there told us that they had just had a bunch of visitors and they just needed a little bit of rest. So they didn't have room for us. So we had to wait and find this Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] And you've been, you've been on the road for 30 hours.

[User] Oh, it was a nightmare. And, um, you know, we are, we had to. The driver then said, well, the Peace Corps volunteer is not there. Why don't you come to my house, rest, take a shower, have something to eat, and then we'll go look for her again in the afternoon. So that's what we did.

[Assistant] That's kind of risky, but it turned out okay.

[User] Yes. Yeah, that worked out well, so. Thank God.

[Assistant] What's Gao like? Gao is in the northern part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was a nightmare. And, um, you know, we are, we had to. The driver then said, well, the Peace Corps volunteer is not there. Why don't you come to my house, rest, take a shower, have something to eat, and then we'll go look for her again in the afternoon. So that's what we did.

[Assistant] That's kind of risky, but it turned out okay.

[User] Yes. Yeah, that worked out well, so. Thank God.

[Assistant] What's Gao like? Gao is in the northern part?

[User] Yes. It was, it was very desolate. Much more desolate. It wasn't as pretty as Ayoun. Ayoun had, um, you know, very dark rocks. A lot of the houses were made of rocks or adobe, whereas, in Gao the roads were wider, but the, and the houses were cement, but they weren't painted. And they just had a drab feeling about it.

[Assistant] I was going to, on that 30 hour bus ride, what were the roads like? Is it a paved road?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was, it was very desolate. Much more desolate. It wasn't as pretty as Ayoun. Ayoun had, um, you know, very dark rocks. A lot of the houses were made of rocks or adobe, whereas, in Gao the roads were wider, but the, and the houses were cement, but they weren't painted. And they just had a drab feeling about it.

[Assistant] I was going to, on that 30 hour bus ride, what were the roads like? Is it a paved road?

[User] Yes. There were paved roads the whole way.

[Assistant] Potholes or?

[User] Uh, yeah. But you know, there was a road.

[Assistant] There's a road. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, yeah. But you know, there was a road.

[Assistant] There's a road. Okay.

[User] And at one point we had to cross the river or like over, over a river probably.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it was a long, long ride. That's all I remember.

[Assistant] My geography, my knowledge of the geography isn't very good in Mali. But I'm wondering where the Niger River starts somewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And at one point we had to cross the river or like over, over a river probably.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it was a long, long ride. That's all I remember.

[Assistant] My geography, my knowledge of the geography isn't very good in Mali. But I'm wondering where the Niger River starts somewhere?

[User] Yeah. So that must have been the.

[Assistant] That might have been the Niger at its very beginnings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was a long, long ride. That's all I remember.

[Assistant] My geography, my knowledge of the geography isn't very good in Mali. But I'm wondering where the Niger River starts somewhere?

[User] Yeah. So that must have been the.

[Assistant] That might have been the Niger at its very beginnings.

[User] Yeah. Um, and what, you know, what made it seem so long was just that we were traversing very desolate areas.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And you had been through a somewhat of a trauma. I don't know, maybe that's too strong a word, but you'd been plucked out of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that must have been the.

[Assistant] That might have been the Niger at its very beginnings.

[User] Yeah. Um, and what, you know, what made it seem so long was just that we were traversing very desolate areas.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And you had been through a somewhat of a trauma. I don't know, maybe that's too strong a word, but you'd been plucked out of.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I, uh, you, you're very shaky. You know, you're in a very shaky situation where you're going to a totally unknown place. What was it? What were you, what were you expecting to do in Gao?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I, uh, you, you're very shaky. You know, you're in a very shaky situation where you're going to a totally unknown place. What was it? What were you, what were you expecting to do in Gao?

[User] You know, I was supposed to work with this Peace Corps volunteer, ag extension.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So what I actually ended up doing was working with the people in Gao with the World Vision people.

[Assistant] Okay. So you never did find that Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So what I actually ended up doing was working with the people in Gao with the World Vision people.

[Assistant] Okay. So you never did find that Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] I did find her. And she showed up that afternoon.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant]
All right. Um, you know, I lived with her. Well, I lived with her the whole time I was there, but I think I had intentions of moving and finding a family because I didn't like the fact that she left. She lived in a house by herself.

Oh, okay. And you wanted, you liked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did find her. And she showed up that afternoon.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant]
All right. Um, you know, I lived with her. Well, I lived with her the whole time I was there, but I think I had intentions of moving and finding a family because I didn't like the fact that she left. She lived in a house by herself.

Oh, okay. And you wanted, you liked.

[User] You know, I liked the warmth and the security of having a family. Um, so I worked with World, I eventually worked with World Vision. We patched up the, uh, relation after that first day.

[Assistant] Yeah, when they sent you off, we don't have room for you. No room in the inn.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant]
All right. Um, you know, I lived with her. Well, I lived with her the whole time I was there, but I think I had intentions of moving and finding a family because I didn't like the fact that she left. She lived in a house by herself.

Oh, okay. And you wanted, you liked.

[User] You know, I liked the warmth and the security of having a family. Um, so I worked with World, I eventually worked with World Vision. We patched up the, uh, relation after that first day.

[Assistant] Yeah, when they sent you off, we don't have room for you. No room in the inn.

[User] I know. And, um, so I worked with them and that, that turned out well. But then, you know, eventually we had to call Peace Corps because there were fighting in Gao of the Tuareg, the Tuareg rebellion. And they were they were killing people ten kilometers outside of Gao.

[Assistant] This is way before ISIS came in and took advantage of that Tuareg unhappiness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. And, um, so I worked with them and that, that turned out well. But then, you know, eventually we had to call Peace Corps because there were fighting in Gao of the Tuareg, the Tuareg rebellion. And they were they were killing people ten kilometers outside of Gao.

[Assistant] This is way before ISIS came in and took advantage of that Tuareg unhappiness.

[User] Yes. Um, so at that point, uh, and then you know that, at that time there were these consultants visiting, uh, which was good, because then we used them to get down, to get to Bamako, um, because we told Peace Corps there, you might want to talk to the embassy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There are problems up here that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. So you, you it was your decision to leave Gao and go down to Bamako?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Um, so at that point, uh, and then you know that, at that time there were these consultants visiting, uh, which was good, because then we used them to get down, to get to Bamako, um, because we told Peace Corps there, you might want to talk to the embassy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There are problems up here that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. So you, you it was your decision to leave Gao and go down to Bamako?

[User] No. It was, we called Peace Corps. And then they said, well, can you get out?

[Assistant] Okay, so you did have, World Vision would have had a phone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are problems up here that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. So you, you it was your decision to leave Gao and go down to Bamako?

[User] No. It was, we called Peace Corps. And then they said, well, can you get out?

[Assistant] Okay, so you did have, World Vision would have had a phone.

[User] Uh, no. No, we had to go to the post office. They didn't have a phone.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It was, we called Peace Corps. And then they said, well, can you get out?

[Assistant] Okay, so you did have, World Vision would have had a phone.

[User] Uh, no. No, we had to go to the post office. They didn't have a phone.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Wow. So you had, but there was a phone in the post office. You were able to call Peace Corps and describe what was happening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, no. No, we had to go to the post office. They didn't have a phone.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Wow. So you had, but there was a phone in the post office. You were able to call Peace Corps and describe what was happening.

[User] Happening in the, um, across the street from the house where this volunteer lived was the main house of the Tuareg, which was surrounded. Yeah. No, it was a very, uh, shaky situation.

[Assistant] No kidding. No kidding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Wow. So you had, but there was a phone in the post office. You were able to call Peace Corps and describe what was happening.

[User] Happening in the, um, across the street from the house where this volunteer lived was the main house of the Tuareg, which was surrounded. Yeah. No, it was a very, uh, shaky situation.

[Assistant] No kidding. No kidding.

[User] So at that point, they told us just get out.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel unsafe? Was it scary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Happening in the, um, across the street from the house where this volunteer lived was the main house of the Tuareg, which was surrounded. Yeah. No, it was a very, uh, shaky situation.

[Assistant] No kidding. No kidding.

[User] So at that point, they told us just get out.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel unsafe? Was it scary?

[User] Uh, it was scary because you could hear a lot of shots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Oh yeah. So how did you get out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So at that point, they told us just get out.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel unsafe? Was it scary?

[User] Uh, it was scary because you could hear a lot of shots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Oh yeah. So how did you get out?

[User] With the Peace Corps, with the two consultants who were visiting.

[Assistant] Okay, okay. And they drove you back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, it was scary because you could hear a lot of shots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Oh yeah. So how did you get out?

[User] With the Peace Corps, with the two consultants who were visiting.

[Assistant] Okay, okay. And they drove you back?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In a Jeep or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In a Jeep or something.

[User] On a Jeep. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I know. So pulled out twice.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. How long had you been up in Gao?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. So pulled out twice.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. How long had you been up in Gao?

[User] Probably 3 or 4 months.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It couldn't have been that long.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel that you accomplished something in that short amount of time? Well, you were teaching. You were working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It couldn't have been that long.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel that you accomplished something in that short amount of time? Well, you were teaching. You were working.

[User] Yeah, I was working. You know, I was working with another person, a counterpart. So that was good. Yeah. There was a there were a lot of good things about that situation, you know, working with World Vision, they had villages that they were working in, working with a counterpart. That was all good. And she spoke French.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And the local language. So.

[Assistant] But now your French is getting better.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was working. You know, I was working with another person, a counterpart. So that was good. Yeah. There was a there were a lot of good things about that situation, you know, working with World Vision, they had villages that they were working in, working with a counterpart. That was all good. And she spoke French.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And the local language. So.

[Assistant] But now your French is getting better.

[User] That was much better.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So now you're back in Bamako.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was much better.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So now you're back in Bamako.

[User] In Bamako.

[Assistant] And it's.

[User] And Peace Corps just told me take your time, whatever you want to do.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Peace Corps just told me take your time, whatever you want to do.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So what did you do?

[User] So I decided to leave eventually.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] But then Peace Corps Mauritania reopened.

[Assistant] Aha. Because things calmed down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I decided to leave eventually.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] But then Peace Corps Mauritania reopened.

[Assistant] Aha. Because things calmed down.

[User] In Mauritania.

[Assistant] Was Saddam Hussein's family still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then Peace Corps Mauritania reopened.

[Assistant] Aha. Because things calmed down.

[User] In Mauritania.

[Assistant] Was Saddam Hussein's family still there?

[User] Left. They had left.

[Assistant] Oh, they left so it was okay for Peace Corps to come back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Mauritania.

[Assistant] Was Saddam Hussein's family still there?

[User] Left. They had left.

[Assistant] Oh, they left so it was okay for Peace Corps to come back.

[User] Yes. So Peace Corps went back. And then at that point, instead of. So I took about two months and not sure what I wanted to do. Then Peace Corps decided to.

[Assistant] Where are you during those two months, in Bamako?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So Peace Corps went back. And then at that point, instead of. So I took about two months and not sure what I wanted to do. Then Peace Corps decided to.

[Assistant] Where are you during those two months, in Bamako?

[User] In Bamako.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And um, at that point.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps is still giving you your living allowance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. And they, and then at that, at one point I went and I stayed with the doctors, the doctor's house. Um. Yeah, no, they were very nice.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Peace Corps was very, very supportive.

[Assistant] Good, good.

[User] I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I wasn't ready and, you know, it was very. It was not a good, I was not in a good place because you know psychologically I think I was a bit traumatized by that.

[Assistant] Well, sure. Sure. You being pulled out twice wherever you were trying to figure out what to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps was very, very supportive.

[Assistant] Good, good.

[User] I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I wasn't ready and, you know, it was very. It was not a good, I was not in a good place because you know psychologically I think I was a bit traumatized by that.

[Assistant] Well, sure. Sure. You being pulled out twice wherever you were trying to figure out what to do.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then before being pulled out of Ayoun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I wasn't ready and, you know, it was very. It was not a good, I was not in a good place because you know psychologically I think I was a bit traumatized by that.

[Assistant] Well, sure. Sure. You being pulled out twice wherever you were trying to figure out what to do.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then before being pulled out of Ayoun.

[User] Peace Corps Mauritania.

[Assistant] That first placement wasn't working out either. So that's really three separate places where you had to leave. And then, and then you, you're offered an opportunity to work as Peace Corps staff back in Mauritania.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps Mauritania.

[Assistant] That first placement wasn't working out either. So that's really three separate places where you had to leave. And then, and then you, you're offered an opportunity to work as Peace Corps staff back in Mauritania.

[User] Well, no, in Mali. So they trained, they brought the volunteers to Mali first and we did training there, cross-culture, language. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And then we went back to Mauritania.

[Assistant] So people, these were brand new Peace Corps volunteers coming in from New York or someplace, flying in, flying into Bamako, into Mali to begin their Peace Corps training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, in Mali. So they trained, they brought the volunteers to Mali first and we did training there, cross-culture, language. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And then we went back to Mauritania.

[Assistant] So people, these were brand new Peace Corps volunteers coming in from New York or someplace, flying in, flying into Bamako, into Mali to begin their Peace Corps training.

[User] Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Had they already done something like you did in, um, in the Frogmore?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we went back to Mauritania.

[Assistant] So people, these were brand new Peace Corps volunteers coming in from New York or someplace, flying in, flying into Bamako, into Mali to begin their Peace Corps training.

[User] Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Had they already done something like you did in, um, in the Frogmore?

[User] Right. No, no.

[Assistant] They were fresh out of college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Had they already done something like you did in, um, in the Frogmore?

[User] Right. No, no.

[Assistant] They were fresh out of college.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or someplace. And, and you were. And so there were people doing language training and cultural orientation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. No, no.

[Assistant] They were fresh out of college.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or someplace. And, and you were. And so there were people doing language training and cultural orientation?

[User] Language and cross-cultural, yeah. All this stuff.

[Assistant] And what was your role?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or someplace. And, and you were. And so there were people doing language training and cultural orientation?

[User] Language and cross-cultural, yeah. All this stuff.

[Assistant] And what was your role?

[User] So I was a cross-cultural trainer there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, you had lots of experience of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Language and cross-cultural, yeah. All this stuff.

[Assistant] And what was your role?

[User] So I was a cross-cultural trainer there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, you had lots of experience of.

[User] And that was good. I mean, I think it allowed me to sort of, um, you know, come full circle. So after, after doing training, I was ready to leave Mauritania.

[Assistant] Yes. And did you accompany these volunteers into Mauritania?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was a cross-cultural trainer there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, you had lots of experience of.

[User] And that was good. I mean, I think it allowed me to sort of, um, you know, come full circle. So after, after doing training, I was ready to leave Mauritania.

[Assistant] Yes. And did you accompany these volunteers into Mauritania?

[User] Yeah, and then I did another training. So two sets of training and then.

[Assistant] Okay, two trainings in Mali or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was good. I mean, I think it allowed me to sort of, um, you know, come full circle. So after, after doing training, I was ready to leave Mauritania.

[Assistant] Yes. And did you accompany these volunteers into Mauritania?

[User] Yeah, and then I did another training. So two sets of training and then.

[Assistant] Okay, two trainings in Mali or?

[User] No, in Mauritania. So once we did the first training in Mali. Then we went back to Mauritania and then it was fine. And then they figured out they could start doing their training there.

[Assistant] Okay. So yet another group came in from New York and you did their training in Mauritania.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and then I did another training. So two sets of training and then.

[Assistant] Okay, two trainings in Mali or?

[User] No, in Mauritania. So once we did the first training in Mali. Then we went back to Mauritania and then it was fine. And then they figured out they could start doing their training there.

[Assistant] Okay. So yet another group came in from New York and you did their training in Mauritania.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] A couple of those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, in Mauritania. So once we did the first training in Mali. Then we went back to Mauritania and then it was fine. And then they figured out they could start doing their training there.

[Assistant] Okay. So yet another group came in from New York and you did their training in Mauritania.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] A couple of those.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then you decided it was time to go home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] A couple of those.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then you decided it was time to go home.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So at this point you had not yet gone back home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then you decided it was time to go home.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So at this point you had not yet gone back home.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You'd spent this whole time between Mauritania and Mali.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So at this point you had not yet gone back home.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You'd spent this whole time between Mauritania and Mali.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Had you ever had a chance to do some traveling or some?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You'd spent this whole time between Mauritania and Mali.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Had you ever had a chance to do some traveling or some?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] When you were in Bamako at least, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Had you ever had a chance to do some traveling or some?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] When you were in Bamako at least, did you?

[User] Yeah, I did, I went to, um. Ivory Coast.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. For a little vacation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little vacation with some of the volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And that was good, just realized.

[Assistant] Abidjan?

[User] Abidjan. Just realizing that, you know, other places were much better than where I came from.

[Assistant] Yeah. You were in really a hardship.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Abidjan. Just realizing that, you know, other places were much better than where I came from.

[Assistant] Yeah. You were in really a hardship.

[User] Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, it wasn't typical, typical Peace Corps experience, I think. Um, so that was nice just to see, and the fact that, you know, people ate much better.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Had electricity and water.

[Assistant] Yeah. Posh Corps. And you were able to speak French in Ivory Coast too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, it wasn't typical, typical Peace Corps experience, I think. Um, so that was nice just to see, and the fact that, you know, people ate much better.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Had electricity and water.

[Assistant] Yeah. Posh Corps. And you were able to speak French in Ivory Coast too.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that was.

[User] Yeah. That was very good.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, it was, it was good. Overall, you know, I had a very good experience. I mean, and I think for me, so I think the fact that I stuck around and allowed it to run its course and then I was ready to come home.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's good. You made very good decisions all the way around. And I don't know how many people going through what you went through would be able to say, it was a very good experience. There was very hard experience. And you're looking, you're, you're looking at the positive side of it and talking about the good that you got out of it. And it was a ultimately a good experience for you. You're a very special person. Then you come home. Home to where? To New York or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came, I came to New York, and then I went to the Dominican Republic and visited my parents. And then I decided to go to France for that summer so I could practice, so I could perfect my French.

[Assistant] French. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So I lived with a French family.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And I took classes at the Sorbonne. And then in August decided I was going to come to Madison. So I came back to the States. I went to Yale, to New Haven. And to think, I thought maybe Yale would be the school where I would come and do my PhD, and I didn't like it. And then I came to Madison and I stayed, and I've been here ever since.

[Assistant] So you came here to the University of Wisconsin. You got a PhD here. In what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I took classes at the Sorbonne. And then in August decided I was going to come to Madison. So I came back to the States. I went to Yale, to New Haven. And to think, I thought maybe Yale would be the school where I would come and do my PhD, and I didn't like it. And then I came to Madison and I stayed, and I've been here ever since.

[Assistant] So you came here to the University of Wisconsin. You got a PhD here. In what?

[User] Cultural anthropology.

[Assistant] Cultural anthropology?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you had such a wonderful grounding in, in living in deeply inside other cultures that you brought with you to your academic studies. How wonderful. And, and, um, do you think you would have gone on for a PhD in cultural anthropology had you not had that Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cultural anthropology.

[Assistant] Cultural anthropology?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you had such a wonderful grounding in, in living in deeply inside other cultures that you brought with you to your academic studies. How wonderful. And, and, um, do you think you would have gone on for a PhD in cultural anthropology had you not had that Peace Corps experience?

[User] Um, yes, because in my graduate work, the reason. So at Boston University, my one professor said, um, when I was finishing my master's and I wanted to do anthropology, she said it would be good for you to go out and get experience and then come back to do your PhD.

[Assistant] And that's exactly it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you had such a wonderful grounding in, in living in deeply inside other cultures that you brought with you to your academic studies. How wonderful. And, and, um, do you think you would have gone on for a PhD in cultural anthropology had you not had that Peace Corps experience?

[User] Um, yes, because in my graduate work, the reason. So at Boston University, my one professor said, um, when I was finishing my master's and I wanted to do anthropology, she said it would be good for you to go out and get experience and then come back to do your PhD.

[Assistant] And that's exactly it.

[User] It took me five years, but I did it.

[Assistant] You did it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, yes, because in my graduate work, the reason. So at Boston University, my one professor said, um, when I was finishing my master's and I wanted to do anthropology, she said it would be good for you to go out and get experience and then come back to do your PhD.

[Assistant] And that's exactly it.

[User] It took me five years, but I did it.

[Assistant] You did it.

[User] You know, five years kind of roundabout way from starting from that, yeah, to the coming to.

[Assistant] It was all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took me five years, but I did it.

[Assistant] You did it.

[User] You know, five years kind of roundabout way from starting from that, yeah, to the coming to.

[Assistant] It was all.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All, you could look at that as one big educational experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, five years kind of roundabout way from starting from that, yeah, to the coming to.

[Assistant] It was all.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All, you could look at that as one big educational experience.

[User] And it was good. You know like I mean, yeah. You know, sometimes you have to, you know, even though you come, you go full circle, it's, it's part of the, that learning.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you finished your PhD then, in what, 1992?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was good. You know like I mean, yeah. You know, sometimes you have to, you know, even though you come, you go full circle, it's, it's part of the, that learning.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you finished your PhD then, in what, 1992?

[User] No, 2004.

[Assistant] 2004.

[User] I finished, yeah.

[Assistant] You finished. Yeah. And what have you done since then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, 2004.

[Assistant] 2004.

[User] I finished, yeah.

[Assistant] You finished. Yeah. And what have you done since then?

[User] So you know, I've.

[Assistant] That was 12 years ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you know, I've.

[Assistant] That was 12 years ago.

[User] Yeah. No, that's a long time. Uh, you know, I've worked in numerous capacities in Madison at, uh, I was a knowledge management coordinator at the World Council of Credit Union, where it was really my anthropology that got me that job. I, uh, I've been very interested in engaging young people in science. So I've done a lot of science outreach through Edgewood. And then the last four years I've been working at the Earth Partnership, uh, at the Arboretum, UW Arboretum, on ecological restoration, which is training teachers and community members to do restoration and the reasons why. And my position is really multicultural. So I bring my anthropological to the work. So I work with Native American communities, I work with Latino communities. And now I'm taking UW students overseas to do restoration in other countries.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful.

[User] So, you know. Yeah.

[Assistant] And in somewhere in all this time you've married. You have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. No, that's a long time. Uh, you know, I've worked in numerous capacities in Madison at, uh, I was a knowledge management coordinator at the World Council of Credit Union, where it was really my anthropology that got me that job. I, uh, I've been very interested in engaging young people in science. So I've done a lot of science outreach through Edgewood. And then the last four years I've been working at the Earth Partnership, uh, at the Arboretum, UW Arboretum, on ecological restoration, which is training teachers and community members to do restoration and the reasons why. And my position is really multicultural. So I bring my anthropological to the work. So I work with Native American communities, I work with Latino communities. And now I'm taking UW students overseas to do restoration in other countries.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful.

[User] So, you know. Yeah.

[Assistant] And in somewhere in all this time you've married. You have.

[User] Married, children. Yeah. So I have my twins, who are going to be 17 in four days. Yeah.

[Assistant] And you married a guy who himself was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know. Yeah.

[Assistant] And in somewhere in all this time you've married. You have.

[User] Married, children. Yeah. So I have my twins, who are going to be 17 in four days. Yeah.

[Assistant] And you married a guy who himself was.

[User] A Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] But you didn't meet him in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Married, children. Yeah. So I have my twins, who are going to be 17 in four days. Yeah.

[Assistant] And you married a guy who himself was.

[User] A Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] But you didn't meet him in the Peace Corps?

[User] No, but we met through mutual Peace Corps people. So I met him through my, at a party of my, um, Peace Corps trainers, Julia and Emmett, Julian Paulsen and Emmett Millen. And Emmett studied with Charles, my husband, at UW doing his master's. So they're very good friends.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, it all comes together, doesn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] But you didn't meet him in the Peace Corps?

[User] No, but we met through mutual Peace Corps people. So I met him through my, at a party of my, um, Peace Corps trainers, Julia and Emmett, Julian Paulsen and Emmett Millen. And Emmett studied with Charles, my husband, at UW doing his master's. So they're very good friends.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, it all comes together, doesn't it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else you'd want to say? Would you recommend it to a young woman today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but we met through mutual Peace Corps people. So I met him through my, at a party of my, um, Peace Corps trainers, Julia and Emmett, Julian Paulsen and Emmett Millen. And Emmett studied with Charles, my husband, at UW doing his master's. So they're very good friends.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, it all comes together, doesn't it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else you'd want to say? Would you recommend it to a young woman today?

[User] Yes, I would. I think, you know, you have to go in, you know, clearly with, uh, open eyes and open mind and, uh, and be very aware that, you know, it's not the same world as when I went in. You know, I was very lucky to go to a dry country, so I didn't have to deal with a lot of issues that I think countries where alcohol.

[Assistant] Oh, there's that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else you'd want to say? Would you recommend it to a young woman today?

[User] Yes, I would. I think, you know, you have to go in, you know, clearly with, uh, open eyes and open mind and, uh, and be very aware that, you know, it's not the same world as when I went in. You know, I was very lucky to go to a dry country, so I didn't have to deal with a lot of issues that I think countries where alcohol.

[Assistant] Oh, there's that.

[User] Is prevalent. Yeah. So I was very grateful for that.

[Assistant] I'm thinking dry in two ways. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is prevalent. Yeah. So I was very grateful for that.

[Assistant] I'm thinking dry in two ways. Okay.

[User] And then, um, living with a family I think was critical for me. So I would highly recommend that.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Um, yeah. No, I, you know, for me, I would say that my defining, the moment in my life that has defined me was my Peace Corps service.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Maria.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then, um, living with a family I think was critical for me. So I would highly recommend that.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Um, yeah. No, I, you know, for me, I would say that my defining, the moment in my life that has defined me was my Peace Corps service.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Maria.

[User] Thank you. [tape break]

[Assistant] Hello. Um, we're going to get back to this discussion with Maria because she's written a piece that she just read for me. And I think we should include this in the interview. It's, it's very lovely. So here's Maria reading now to you something that she's written. Who did you write it for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, yeah. No, I, you know, for me, I would say that my defining, the moment in my life that has defined me was my Peace Corps service.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Maria.

[User] Thank you. [tape break]

[Assistant] Hello. Um, we're going to get back to this discussion with Maria because she's written a piece that she just read for me. And I think we should include this in the interview. It's, it's very lovely. So here's Maria reading now to you something that she's written. Who did you write it for?

[User] You know, I wrote this when I was for the 50th anniversary. The UW did a celebration.

[Assistant] 50th anniversary of Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. [tape break]

[Assistant] Hello. Um, we're going to get back to this discussion with Maria because she's written a piece that she just read for me. And I think we should include this in the interview. It's, it's very lovely. So here's Maria reading now to you something that she's written. Who did you write it for?

[User] You know, I wrote this when I was for the 50th anniversary. The UW did a celebration.

[Assistant] 50th anniversary of Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that would have been 2011?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I wrote this when I was for the 50th anniversary. The UW did a celebration.

[Assistant] 50th anniversary of Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that would have been 2011?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's hear it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] I know you have a busy schedule. Let's begin by you telling us what your roles and responsibilities are here at Johnson Space Center, as training lead.

[User] As a training lead, I sort of am the maestro over a group of instructors. We work predominantly in the simulator to train a Space Shuttle crew for a mission. We get assigned to a specific mission, and we follow that crew from the time they're assigned until the time that they fly. We do all of their training in the simulator.\n\n Also in here, in what we call the single-system trainer, the individual instructors who are responsible for different discipline areas on the Shuttle, like control and propulsion or data processing systems, environmental control and life support systems, they come in with the crew members prior to going to the simulator, and actually train those individual systems. They teach them how they work, just normally, and then we also have classes that throw in malfunctions. So they can come in here and practice malfunctions.\n\n When we take them across the street to the simulator, we actually throw it all together, all the different disciplines, and that's where we practice, actually, flying for the mission.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing this?

[User] I joined the Training Division here at the Johnson Space Center in 1987, probably about April or May. I forget now, it's been so long. But I've been doing this for about eleven years now.

[Assistant] Have you always been in this capacity, or were you doing things before this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I think everybody realized that. With the teamwork, we also realized that there's no holding of information. This was a dangerous feat we were trying to pull off, if you really think about it. So the crew had to be well trained. We also had to understand how the mechanism worked so that we could figure out how to break it in simulations. So if we didn't know how it worked, we couldn't give them realistic scenarios and teach them how to potentially get out of a hairy situation should it arise. That didn't actually happen.

[Assistant] Is that part of your job duty to come up with these scenarios with the situations to get them to figure out how to survive?

[User] Yes. A lot of people chuckle, a lot of my friends chuckle at my job, and I said, "Well, I actually have a really great job. I don't have a whole lot of stress, because I can take it out on the poor astronauts." [Laughter] Actually, the astronauts like to joke that we give them a really hard time, but I think they knew we're their biggest cheerleaders. We're sitting down there, and we try to throw things in, and as they go through the training flow it will get a little more difficult and a little more difficult. We're actually down there going, "Yeah!" when they get it right, when they figure out what we've done to them and actually get themselves out of a sticky situation.

[Assistant] Maybe you can go into creating thousand-piece puzzles when you get through with this job.

[User] [Laughter] That's right. I might need to do that, actually. My brain's full at this point in time.

[Assistant] Did you experience any differences in training the astronauts compared to the cosmonauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The other thing that amazed me is, once I would explain to them, for example, rapid cabin depressurization and I'd show them on our CRT displays where that might occur, once they knew what it looked like here, they could go pick it out. They would point, "Oh, yeah" once I'd put the malfunction in "that's where it's dropping." You could see that these people were just as smart as our astronauts.\n\n It's really funny, Bill Cosby once, I remember him saying, trying to talk to foreigners, people tend to shout at them. [Laughter] He's like, "They're not deaf; they just don't speak the language." You had to be very careful, because you would find yourself, if you couldn't get a point across, you'd just say it louder. And it doesn't get across any different. It's the language; it's not the level of the volume. [Laughter]\n\n I realized at that time that these folks were the best of their best, just like our astronauts here are. Now that we have some of our astronauts that have gone over there and trained, I imagine it's the same feeling for them. It's got to be frustrating to be a highly intelligent individual and outstanding in your field, and then to be constrained by language and not be able to get your points across. So we tried very hard to help alleviate that for them. But it was fun. We had some fun moments. They were all really good folks.

[Assistant] What other missions have you worked on, other than 71?

[User] Let's see. I worked 71, 76, 79 for a little while, and then I left and went to another job and then came back. I did STS-84 and STS-89, and 86 was in between there, too. I lose track. But I did all of those missions for docking. In some cases I was also their systems instructor at the same time.

[Assistant] You've been up close and personal with Shuttle-Mir?

[User] Yes, from day one.

[Assistant] Since the beginning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that trip.

[Assistant] Well, that's a feat in itself, is for you to train them, but yet knowing that that's not their actual environment that they're going to be training in.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Does that pose a challenge to you and to them?

[User] I think it's always a challenge, because if you think about it, we practice launches over here. But I can't imagine going from our simulator, which I hear is fairly realistic, to actually knowing that you're sitting on top of all of this rocket fuel and it just lit. That's got to kind of make you leave your brain back on the launch pad for just a moment.\n\n I think they have similar problems. But one of the nice things about having so many flights to do, that after every flight, I would talk to the crew members. We have what we call a training debriefing. "What could we have done better? What did you notice that was different? Was there any we call them gotchas any gotchas that you ran into? How can we change the procedures to make them better?\n\n Actually, all of the docking procedures and all of this duct work and what we call tunnel ops, tunnel operations, because that whole area back to the docking system we called the tunnel, we revised that for every flight. It got better every time. By the last three flights we pretty much had it down. We're actually going to be using this docking mechanism for our International Space Station flights. I think we've learned a tremendous amount of lessons from the Shuttle-Mir Program and will use that in the ISS flights that are going to be coming up in the future.

[Assistant] But I have to assume that not one flight is the same as the one before it. Each had its own unique characteristics for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. It was amazing to me when it first happened on STS-60, and to this day it still I'm amazed at what we're doing now and the direction that we're going. I think it is really interesting. I've trained and worked with every astronaut candidate class that has come in since 1990, and they have evolved. Went from being all Americans, to now we're bringing in international astronauts from the international space agencies. So we're seeing a change and a moving in that direction. I just couldn't have imagined that a few years ago, because you kind of grow up with NASA as all fighter pilot types and they go and they sit on top of rockets and they go into space and do wonderful things. But you don't think about anybody from another country joining NASA, it was such an American icon. I think it just speaks to the direction that we're moving as a whole for human space flight. That's the next step, is the cooperative, international cooperation.

[Assistant] How long are they in this trainer?

[User] In this trainer? Classes in here are typically two hours long. Classes in the simulator are four hours, five hours, eight hours, ten hours, all the way up to thirty-six hours. Just prior to a flight, they'll do what we call a long simulation, which will take thirty-six hours, usually whatever the critical objective is on the flight. For example, on a docking flight, we take the window just prior to docking and after docking, and we will work all the way through that time line and practice doing everything that they're going to do. It's the big dress rehearsal. All of those things tend to happen in the last twelve weeks of training.

[Assistant] What is your time period that you're with, when you said you're assigned to the team?

[User] It can be anywhere from a year and a half to flight, or nine months to flight, depending on what the objectives are. I guess for most of the Mir crews, I worked with them about a year. We'd be assigned with them for a year.

[Assistant] Did you train them more?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In this trainer? Classes in here are typically two hours long. Classes in the simulator are four hours, five hours, eight hours, ten hours, all the way up to thirty-six hours. Just prior to a flight, they'll do what we call a long simulation, which will take thirty-six hours, usually whatever the critical objective is on the flight. For example, on a docking flight, we take the window just prior to docking and after docking, and we will work all the way through that time line and practice doing everything that they're going to do. It's the big dress rehearsal. All of those things tend to happen in the last twelve weeks of training.

[Assistant] What is your time period that you're with, when you said you're assigned to the team?

[User] It can be anywhere from a year and a half to flight, or nine months to flight, depending on what the objectives are. I guess for most of the Mir crews, I worked with them about a year. We'd be assigned with them for a year.

[Assistant] Did you train them more?

[User] Well, I guess as an instructor, you can always say you can always train them more. But most of the people that we have chosen in our astronaut program are just phenomenal folks. We set out our objectives, what we want to teach, almost at the beginning, and we go after that, and they learn it very well. It's really amazing. You can always go deeper. This is such a complex mechanical system and flight machine, the Shuttle. Then you can add all the other complexities of the docking system and using the arm to put the docking module on top of the docking mechanism, and then docking it with Mir. So it's pretty complex stuff.

[Assistant] Any other thing that you would have liked to have done other than this, now you've done it? Or are there other things you'd like to move to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It can be anywhere from a year and a half to flight, or nine months to flight, depending on what the objectives are. I guess for most of the Mir crews, I worked with them about a year. We'd be assigned with them for a year.

[Assistant] Did you train them more?

[User] Well, I guess as an instructor, you can always say you can always train them more. But most of the people that we have chosen in our astronaut program are just phenomenal folks. We set out our objectives, what we want to teach, almost at the beginning, and we go after that, and they learn it very well. It's really amazing. You can always go deeper. This is such a complex mechanical system and flight machine, the Shuttle. Then you can add all the other complexities of the docking system and using the arm to put the docking module on top of the docking mechanism, and then docking it with Mir. So it's pretty complex stuff.

[Assistant] Any other thing that you would have liked to have done other than this, now you've done it? Or are there other things you'd like to move to?

[User] I hadn't really thought about that, I mean, other than just going into space. [Laughter] If they could just take me with them. I think I, as an instructor, have been very blessed, or very lucky, I'm not really sure which. I've just sort of got some really good assignments. I got to work on a lot of missions that were considered firsts. Even now I'm on a first, which is a first female commander. So I consider myself very, very lucky. I don't have too many regrets, things I didn't get to do.\n\n I probably would still like to go to Russia, but at the time I was just too busy training them here, so I couldn't go there. I couldn't necessarily cut me loose from the schedule.

[Assistant] I'm going to ask Carol or Mark if they have some questions for you. Before we let you go on back to your other job duties, would like for you just to kind of tell us about what's here and how you walk people through that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They need to feel comfortable.

[User] Yes. I guess the one thing about this is, imagine if you took that whole back wall and moved it up to about right there, that's actually how small the vehicle is in real life. So this is kind of spread out a little bit. There's a lot more room in here than there is on the Shuttle.

[Assistant]
Carol, did you have a question?

You mentioned there were a lot of lessons learned from the Shuttle-Mir Program that will be beneficial to the International Space Station. I know one of those probably dealt a lot with the docking. Are there any others, in particular, that really stand out?

[User] Actually, I think one of the things that we learned was the language thing, not only Russian, but we now have Japanese, French, Spanish, German international astronauts in residence. Most of them speak English. But a lot of our folks, our instructors, who are having to, I guess, work training issues with these different agencies are having to travel now. So we've got people learning Japanese. We've got people learning French. I guess it's something we didn't have to worry about in the days of us just flying Americans. You come in, you already speak the language, it's no problem. This throws an extra complexity in it that you have to take into account.\n\n Also there's a lot of cultural difference. I think one of the things that we learned with the Russians is they tend to be very I guess it's the personal space. Maybe you've heard about this. They tend to be closer than Americans are. So, getting used to that. Also, they tend to talk louder. It might sound like they're shouting, and they're not. So there's a lot of little things that we've learned. They are training folks in cultural differences. I’ve had a class on Japanese cultural diversity. I also understand that they're getting the same for Americans [a class for the foreigners on American culture] so they understand us.

[Assistant] That might be interesting for us to take.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By that point, putting the telescope together you might say was a simple task in comparison to testing it. It’s certainly more glamorous to do the testing of the telescope in cryogenic vacuum conditions. It uses something called interferometry to measure the primary mirror, and that was what my dissertation was on. It’s one of my specialties.\n\n I think I left the team putting the telescope together in very good shape, and made the choice to do the more challenging, more glamorous thing. Knowing that I would have to move to Houston, Texas, which provided a lot of consternation to me and my family at the time. We really weren’t sure that we wanted to do that, to pick up and move here.\n\n The only time I had ever been here, I came out for a PIT (the Product Integrity Team) meeting here one year. I remember driving from the airport. At the time I [Interstate]-45 was just a construction disaster, and that corridor of Houston is really ugly.

[Assistant] You flew into [William P.] Hobby [Airport]?

[User] From Hobby. Just coming from Hobby to here, I was shocked. “Oh my god, I’m moving to this place.” In the end we like it here, and we’re staying. So yes, I decided to go with what was more challenging and more glamorous and where I could have I think the biggest impact. It would last longer. The telescope was being put together in probably 2016 or so. Although actually if I had done that first half, I probably would have been put on the second half anyway.

[Assistant] When you came down, what state was the SESL at that point? What did it look like? How did you start coming up with these plans for the test?

[User] What is SESL?

[Assistant] That’s the Space Environment Simulation Lab. That’s [JSC] Building 32. I don’t know how you guys refer to it, but that’s what we call it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s my pleasure, totally.

[Assistant] I thought we’d start off with a relatively easy question. Why don’t you give me an overview of your career at NASA.

[User] I started working for USBI [United Space Boosters, Inc.] in 1978. Previously I was employed at Lockheed Missiles. I worked on the Trident Missile Program, the Fleet Ballistic Missile. When that program ended, I came over to USBI. So in 1978 they were looking for mechanical engineers and pyro and ordnance engineers. I got hired as a mechanical engineer.\n\n So I’ve been working since then on Space Shuttle, totally Space Shuttle, STS-1 through STS-135. I’ve been lucky enough to work every mission. It’s been quite a thrill really. [Today I am the director of program management for United Space Alliance.]

[Assistant] 135 missions, that’s amazing. Since you started in ’78, would you tell me what was going on [at that time]? They were supposed to launch the Shuttle at that point.

[User] Actually in 1978, when I first started working here, there was no flight hardware here. There was no paperwork on how to put it together. I was hired to be one of the technical people, an engineer, to write assembly documentation for the SRB, specifically the forward assembly of the SRB. I was a forward skirt engineer. I wrote the ordnance and the mechanical installation and the mass properties paperwork for the forward skirt.\n\n At that time the VAB [Vehicle Assembly Building] was still set up for the Apollo Program, because when Apollo ended, they just walked away from it. So we had to retrofit and activate the low bay of the VAB. We took out some stands, we put new stands in, platforms and ladders that would access SRB hardware. So my first real job responsibility was the activation manager for the VAB. That was before we ever had any flight hardware. Ultimately we got the facility ready to accept flight hardware and then in ’79 we started to get flight hardware, and we started building the first Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] That must have been really exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started working for USBI [United Space Boosters, Inc.] in 1978. Previously I was employed at Lockheed Missiles. I worked on the Trident Missile Program, the Fleet Ballistic Missile. When that program ended, I came over to USBI. So in 1978 they were looking for mechanical engineers and pyro and ordnance engineers. I got hired as a mechanical engineer.\n\n So I’ve been working since then on Space Shuttle, totally Space Shuttle, STS-1 through STS-135. I’ve been lucky enough to work every mission. It’s been quite a thrill really. [Today I am the director of program management for United Space Alliance.]

[Assistant] 135 missions, that’s amazing. Since you started in ’78, would you tell me what was going on [at that time]? They were supposed to launch the Shuttle at that point.

[User] Actually in 1978, when I first started working here, there was no flight hardware here. There was no paperwork on how to put it together. I was hired to be one of the technical people, an engineer, to write assembly documentation for the SRB, specifically the forward assembly of the SRB. I was a forward skirt engineer. I wrote the ordnance and the mechanical installation and the mass properties paperwork for the forward skirt.\n\n At that time the VAB [Vehicle Assembly Building] was still set up for the Apollo Program, because when Apollo ended, they just walked away from it. So we had to retrofit and activate the low bay of the VAB. We took out some stands, we put new stands in, platforms and ladders that would access SRB hardware. So my first real job responsibility was the activation manager for the VAB. That was before we ever had any flight hardware. Ultimately we got the facility ready to accept flight hardware and then in ’79 we started to get flight hardware, and we started building the first Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] That must have been really exciting.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about getting ready for that first flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually in 1978, when I first started working here, there was no flight hardware here. There was no paperwork on how to put it together. I was hired to be one of the technical people, an engineer, to write assembly documentation for the SRB, specifically the forward assembly of the SRB. I was a forward skirt engineer. I wrote the ordnance and the mechanical installation and the mass properties paperwork for the forward skirt.\n\n At that time the VAB [Vehicle Assembly Building] was still set up for the Apollo Program, because when Apollo ended, they just walked away from it. So we had to retrofit and activate the low bay of the VAB. We took out some stands, we put new stands in, platforms and ladders that would access SRB hardware. So my first real job responsibility was the activation manager for the VAB. That was before we ever had any flight hardware. Ultimately we got the facility ready to accept flight hardware and then in ’79 we started to get flight hardware, and we started building the first Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] That must have been really exciting.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about getting ready for that first flight?

[User] The first days were pretty hectic actually. There was no written documentation, no paperwork, no procedures, no guidelines. We had to do everything from scratch. It was a long time; working 60 hours a week was not uncommon at all. We worked quite a bit. We even worked through Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays in 1980 to get STS-1 ready. STS-1, of course, launched April 12th, 1981. So leading up to that was pretty feverish.\n\n With the advent of no procedures, no guidelines, not only did we have to write the instructions but we had to develop our own procedures, our safety procedures, our hazardous material handling activities. Anything that you can think of that’s required that’s commonplace today wasn’t there. We had to do it all.

[Assistant] How’d you come up with those type of procedures? Did you ask people from the Apollo Program? Or did you do it as you were working with the first SRB?