[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, uh, I don't recall people getting really sick except with maybe dysentery.

[Assistant] Okay, as you finish your tour and what are your plans at that point?

[User] Plans? I came home and, and, um.

[Assistant] Talk about the reentry to the U.S. Now, you've been in a very exotic place for two years.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And you're returning to Missouri.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Plans? I came home and, and, um.

[Assistant] Talk about the reentry to the U.S. Now, you've been in a very exotic place for two years.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And you're returning to Missouri.

[User] Returning to Missouri. And, and, um.

[Assistant] What did people make of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And you're returning to Missouri.

[User] Returning to Missouri. And, and, um.

[Assistant] What did people make of you?

[User] Well, they just thought it was, it was. Of course, at that time in a small community, like my hometown of Trenton at that time was maybe 8,000 people. And, yes, it was a big thing that somebody went off to India. And, of course, before I left, they had an article about me in the paper and my picture. And then when I returned, I think, I think, I think there was another article when I was home and the story. And I remember speaking at a few groups. And my mother was involved like in a homemakers group. And, and, of course, the, I think the 4-H group was still going. My brother was in that.

[Assistant] Did you put on your Indian dress and you went to speak?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Returning to Missouri. And, and, um.

[Assistant] What did people make of you?

[User] Well, they just thought it was, it was. Of course, at that time in a small community, like my hometown of Trenton at that time was maybe 8,000 people. And, yes, it was a big thing that somebody went off to India. And, of course, before I left, they had an article about me in the paper and my picture. And then when I returned, I think, I think, I think there was another article when I was home and the story. And I remember speaking at a few groups. And my mother was involved like in a homemakers group. And, and, of course, the, I think the 4-H group was still going. My brother was in that.

[Assistant] Did you put on your Indian dress and you went to speak?

[User] Oh, yes, I sure did. And then I did, I brought some, some items that I brought with me, some fabric silks and that kind of thing. And some little dolls and souvenirs. Yes. Jewelry. Yeah.

[Assistant] So the readjustment was relatively easy for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they just thought it was, it was. Of course, at that time in a small community, like my hometown of Trenton at that time was maybe 8,000 people. And, yes, it was a big thing that somebody went off to India. And, of course, before I left, they had an article about me in the paper and my picture. And then when I returned, I think, I think, I think there was another article when I was home and the story. And I remember speaking at a few groups. And my mother was involved like in a homemakers group. And, and, of course, the, I think the 4-H group was still going. My brother was in that.

[Assistant] Did you put on your Indian dress and you went to speak?

[User] Oh, yes, I sure did. And then I did, I brought some, some items that I brought with me, some fabric silks and that kind of thing. And some little dolls and souvenirs. Yes. Jewelry. Yeah.

[Assistant] So the readjustment was relatively easy for you.

[User] It really was. It really was. Probably if I, it was not as much. I think, I think the ones that lived in the villages for two years and had very limited access to fruit and vegetables and, it was, I'm sure it was a lot more difficult. But I could go to, to any store in Hyderabad. And, and, um, I think I even found toilet paper.

[Assistant] At the end of the, as you came to the end of the second year, were you at all tempted to extend your tour?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I sure did. And then I did, I brought some, some items that I brought with me, some fabric silks and that kind of thing. And some little dolls and souvenirs. Yes. Jewelry. Yeah.

[Assistant] So the readjustment was relatively easy for you.

[User] It really was. It really was. Probably if I, it was not as much. I think, I think the ones that lived in the villages for two years and had very limited access to fruit and vegetables and, it was, I'm sure it was a lot more difficult. But I could go to, to any store in Hyderabad. And, and, um, I think I even found toilet paper.

[Assistant] At the end of the, as you came to the end of the second year, were you at all tempted to extend your tour?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Because sometimes that was an option.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really was. It really was. Probably if I, it was not as much. I think, I think the ones that lived in the villages for two years and had very limited access to fruit and vegetables and, it was, I'm sure it was a lot more difficult. But I could go to, to any store in Hyderabad. And, and, um, I think I even found toilet paper.

[Assistant] At the end of the, as you came to the end of the second year, were you at all tempted to extend your tour?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Because sometimes that was an option.

[User] I wasn't. I wasn't. And, uh, I don't know if I didn't, I probably didn't even think about it. I don't know. I don't remember that.

[Assistant] Uh. So let's talk now about, you've made the shift, you've readjusted to being back in the U.S. How do you think your, what effect did the Peace Corps service have on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't. I wasn't. And, uh, I don't know if I didn't, I probably didn't even think about it. I don't know. I don't remember that.

[Assistant] Uh. So let's talk now about, you've made the shift, you've readjusted to being back in the U.S. How do you think your, what effect did the Peace Corps service have on your life?

[User] Oh, I think it's just such wonderful memories and it just, I think it just opened my, opened my whole view of there's something out there besides, besides North Dakota and north Missouri and Kansas City.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, that's just. I don't know, it just very, very, just opened up my world and my thinking.

[Assistant] Another of the Peace Corps goals is that you come back and sort of help other Americans understand about the third world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it's just such wonderful memories and it just, I think it just opened my, opened my whole view of there's something out there besides, besides North Dakota and north Missouri and Kansas City.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, that's just. I don't know, it just very, very, just opened up my world and my thinking.

[Assistant] Another of the Peace Corps goals is that you come back and sort of help other Americans understand about the third world.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall consciously trying to do anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall consciously trying to do anything like that?

[User] I've always been, I've always been interested. Well, after that, I guess, I guess I did a lot of volunteering after that, and I still do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, since then. I mean, I. Of course, I got a job within pretty quick and, uh.

[Assistant] Back at secretarial work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've always been, I've always been interested. Well, after that, I guess, I guess I did a lot of volunteering after that, and I still do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, since then. I mean, I. Of course, I got a job within pretty quick and, uh.

[Assistant] Back at secretarial work?

[User] Yes, I did. And not the same place, but I got another job and.

[Assistant] Were you at all tempted to go on for a degree when you came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think so. Um, I went to, I took some classes at, um, like the junior college.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And just here and there, not for a degree, but just, because I was, I took biology I remember. I took, um, not biology. I took sociology.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I'm just still interested in learning more. And that was interesting but.

[Assistant] Were we able to maintain any kind of contact with people you knew in India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And just here and there, not for a degree, but just, because I was, I took biology I remember. I took, um, not biology. I took sociology.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I'm just still interested in learning more. And that was interesting but.

[Assistant] Were we able to maintain any kind of contact with people you knew in India?

[User] For a while. For a while. But then that kind of it seems like it didn't last. And I started my own life and moving and traveling and family and.

[Assistant] Married with children.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm just still interested in learning more. And that was interesting but.

[Assistant] Were we able to maintain any kind of contact with people you knew in India?

[User] For a while. For a while. But then that kind of it seems like it didn't last. And I started my own life and moving and traveling and family and.

[Assistant] Married with children.

[User] Yeah, so, so, no, that's, that's what I regret, that I didn't. I didn't stay in touch more with, with, uh, like long term with the, yeah.

[Assistant] And through the years, you've not gone back to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so, so, no, that's, that's what I regret, that I didn't. I didn't stay in touch more with, with, uh, like long term with the, yeah.

[Assistant] And through the years, you've not gone back to India?

[User] No, I haven't. And I'd still like to. I'd still like to, but, but I know going back, I could. I'm sure the place, Hyderabad's changed like every other place.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, you know, I would have no idea how to even get over or get around to where locations are.

[Assistant] When you came back, did you find that old friends who would not been in the Peace Corps, there was kind of a dissonance that now you were the world traveler and had been in these exotic places and they were still in Missouri, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I haven't. And I'd still like to. I'd still like to, but, but I know going back, I could. I'm sure the place, Hyderabad's changed like every other place.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, you know, I would have no idea how to even get over or get around to where locations are.

[Assistant] When you came back, did you find that old friends who would not been in the Peace Corps, there was kind of a dissonance that now you were the world traveler and had been in these exotic places and they were still in Missouri, you know?

[User] Missouri, and yeah, of course, a lot of my friends had gone to college and having their own out of town experiences. Um, yes, everybody was very interested at first, of course. Everybody finds, um, interested in what you're doing and family is interested and, and then, and then after a while it's not so much.

[Assistant] Yeah. Very quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, you know, I would have no idea how to even get over or get around to where locations are.

[Assistant] When you came back, did you find that old friends who would not been in the Peace Corps, there was kind of a dissonance that now you were the world traveler and had been in these exotic places and they were still in Missouri, you know?

[User] Missouri, and yeah, of course, a lot of my friends had gone to college and having their own out of town experiences. Um, yes, everybody was very interested at first, of course. Everybody finds, um, interested in what you're doing and family is interested and, and then, and then after a while it's not so much.

[Assistant] Yeah. Very quickly.

[User] And that's why I've very much enjoyed getting together with the local returned Peace Corps volunteer group.

[Assistant] So now, I mean, for the last several years you've been very active in the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Missouri, and yeah, of course, a lot of my friends had gone to college and having their own out of town experiences. Um, yes, everybody was very interested at first, of course. Everybody finds, um, interested in what you're doing and family is interested and, and then, and then after a while it's not so much.

[Assistant] Yeah. Very quickly.

[User] And that's why I've very much enjoyed getting together with the local returned Peace Corps volunteer group.

[Assistant] So now, I mean, for the last several years you've been very active in the?

[User] About I'd say probably ten or 12 years now, very active in the group.

[Assistant] The Kansas City returned volunteer group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's why I've very much enjoyed getting together with the local returned Peace Corps volunteer group.

[Assistant] So now, I mean, for the last several years you've been very active in the?

[User] About I'd say probably ten or 12 years now, very active in the group.

[Assistant] The Kansas City returned volunteer group?

[User] Yes. And, and I just enjoy very much, um, getting together and, and then we can, you know, everybody's interested in what everybody else is doing.

[Assistant] If someone came to you and said, well, do you think I should join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About I'd say probably ten or 12 years now, very active in the group.

[Assistant] The Kansas City returned volunteer group?

[User] Yes. And, and I just enjoy very much, um, getting together and, and then we can, you know, everybody's interested in what everybody else is doing.

[Assistant] If someone came to you and said, well, do you think I should join the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, I'd say definitely. Definitely. Yes.

[Assistant] Did either of your children express interest or did their lives go in other directions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And, and I just enjoy very much, um, getting together and, and then we can, you know, everybody's interested in what everybody else is doing.

[Assistant] If someone came to you and said, well, do you think I should join the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, I'd say definitely. Definitely. Yes.

[Assistant] Did either of your children express interest or did their lives go in other directions?

[User] No, they didn't.

[Assistant] They knew their mother had been in the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I'd say definitely. Definitely. Yes.

[Assistant] Did either of your children express interest or did their lives go in other directions?

[User] No, they didn't.

[Assistant] They knew their mother had been in the Peace Corps.

[User] I suggested. Yes. And I suggested especially my youngest daughter, she's traveled a lot. And, and, and, but. But I guess she found that, um. I don't know. It wasn't for her, but I tried. I sure tried that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else you'd like to say for the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suggested. Yes. And I suggested especially my youngest daughter, she's traveled a lot. And, and, and, but. But I guess she found that, um. I don't know. It wasn't for her, but I tried. I sure tried that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else you'd like to say for the National Archives?

[User] Right. Um. It was just a wonderful experience. I have no regrets whatsoever.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And since then people I meet, um, I've made a lot of good returned Peace Corps friends and, um. Of course, of course, when you, when you meet new people that are not Peace Corps, they're still, I think a lot of them are still kind of surprised that you've done something like that, and um.

[Assistant] When you've gone on job interviews, do you usually mention you've been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Um. It was just a wonderful experience. I have no regrets whatsoever.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And since then people I meet, um, I've made a lot of good returned Peace Corps friends and, um. Of course, of course, when you, when you meet new people that are not Peace Corps, they're still, I think a lot of them are still kind of surprised that you've done something like that, and um.

[Assistant] When you've gone on job interviews, do you usually mention you've been in the Peace Corps?

[User] Yes, I do, definitely.

[Assistant] And what do people make of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now when the Shuttle lands, see, it's not the same. I don't think it could be the same as it was in Apollo or Gemini or Mercury.

[Assistant] Well, give us one that lasted your memory.

[User] Well, remember the old Flintlock Inn? Well, the Flintlock Inn was a great place to have splashdown parties, because they had this whole open second level deck that was open from one end to the other, you could get hundreds of people in there. I'm sure we violated every fire law they ever had cramming people in the place. But you'd get in like [AS-]201, there were things that happened like that commanding sequence we had on [AS-]204 trying to get the commands in before they went over the hill, because they had a maneuver coming up. The guy from the command console down in the bowels of the building just and said, “I never thought you guys would pull that off.” We sat around, we must have rehashed that for half an hour and laughed about it. You'd laugh about a lot of things. You end up—crazy things. Arm-wrestling, Phil [Philip E.] Shaffer, did you know Phil Shaffer? Did you interview him?

[Assistant] We did.

[User] Did you? Okay. He was one of our favorite guys.

[Assistant] So you were an arm-wrestler.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you? Okay. He was one of our favorite guys.

[Assistant] So you were an arm-wrestler.

[User] Arm-wrestling, Indian leg-wrestling. You remember you get on your back and you lock legs together, try to flip the guy. Crazy stuff. Drank a lot of beer. Drank a lot of beer and ate those things that—what was the place in Dickinson?

[Assistant] Hofbrau Garden?

[User] Hofbrau Garden yeah, that was another really good place, because you can get a lot of people in there. They were all a lot of fun. Everybody showed up. [Christopher C.] Kraft would show up. Everybody showed up. They went to all of them that I remember. They wouldn't stay long necessarily but Kranz would come, he'd hang out, and [Glynn S.] Lunney would always be there. Everybody went. It was a good way to defuse or depressurize after the mission was over.

[Assistant] Very much a personal level more than a professional level, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Arm-wrestling, Indian leg-wrestling. You remember you get on your back and you lock legs together, try to flip the guy. Crazy stuff. Drank a lot of beer. Drank a lot of beer and ate those things that—what was the place in Dickinson?

[Assistant] Hofbrau Garden?

[User] Hofbrau Garden yeah, that was another really good place, because you can get a lot of people in there. They were all a lot of fun. Everybody showed up. [Christopher C.] Kraft would show up. Everybody showed up. They went to all of them that I remember. They wouldn't stay long necessarily but Kranz would come, he'd hang out, and [Glynn S.] Lunney would always be there. Everybody went. It was a good way to defuse or depressurize after the mission was over.

[Assistant] Very much a personal level more than a professional level, I guess.

[User] Oh yeah absolutely, yeah, people you talked to that were down in the RTCC [Real-Time Computer Complex] you actually never saw, except at splashdown parties. Let's see. The Ops Taskforce was a really good thing. That was the one where we put the ops concept together. We spent a lot of time as a group down at [NASA] Kennedy [Space Center, Florida] locked up in one of their barns down there to do that. That was good. One of the side benefits is when I worked in the Department of Transportation in the planning area, the systems planning, it got me a call to join the Rockville City Planning Commission, because they're always dealing with a lot of transportation issues and so on. So I spent eight years on the Rockville City Planning Commission because of my UMTA experience.

[Assistant] That's a pretty growing town at that time, wasn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd like to think that was part of it, because I had no clue when I was down in Houston in flight control as a console guy. I wrote requirements, we'd justify them, we sat down with IBM [Corporation] and all these contractor teams, and we'd sit there, and we'd discuss and discuss how to build this software to do this thing for us, the command system and all that. Had no clue what cost was. Had never heard anything about cost. Never. If that's the culture that came forward, where you had no idea what the cost was, or you didn't care—senior managers just said tell [James E.] Webb, he'll go get another $500,000. That was during Apollo. Now that's not happened in Station. You got to fight for every nickel and you have to tell them why. I think they're fair questions as a taxpayer to ask those questions.

[Assistant] Were you still on board when the Congress took the vote where it passed by one vote?

[User] For Station?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. It's in the book.

[Assistant] Okay, good. I'll catch up on my reading.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For Station?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. It's in the book.

[Assistant] Okay, good. I'll catch up on my reading.

[User] That was a scary time, yeah. New Millennium, that program with EO-1, I was real pleased with how that went, that was a big success. This interoperability stuff we're doing with taking the Earth Science vision and translating that into a very international kind of a concept with this GEOSS stuff I mentioned, I felt real good about that. I hope that actually keeps moving on. I didn't really talk much about my parallel career in the Navy.

[Assistant] No, you didn't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. However, I also I also said initially that I was interested in doing work in the health field. And so the first post that was offered, kind of funny, was South Korea. They were there was a tuberculosis project going on there. And I said, no thank you. And then I know by virtue of the timing of this and when my final clearances came through in the summer of 1980, because Benin had a different academic calendar there, what we would consider to be our summer break. Benin is above the equator. And so it's, you know, the same seasons as us. But they had a planting component as part of their curriculum and so were in school during the summer basically. That changed. And so our training was going on in November, December, January of 1980 into 1981. And so when I was cleared for volunteer service in the summer. And that's why I went to Benin, the former French colony formerly called Dahomey. And the name had changed. And so, uh, and so we arrived there and.

[Assistant] Let's back up. OK, so where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up I was born in New York. I grew up in New Jersey. Suburban New Jersey mayor. And then but I was living in Massachusetts and I went to high school and college in Massachusetts. Sudbury, Massachusetts was where my parents were living. And I had. Actually I was working in an administrative capacity at MIT and had met a Peace Corps recruiter there.

[Assistant] So you weren’t straight out of college?

[User] No, I wasn't. No, I was 26. Now, when I became a volunteer, I'd been working for about two years. I graduated from Regis College in Weston, Massachusetts, with a political science and French major and studied in France. And I and then got this job at MIT. Yeah, nice people, but it wasn't really what I was interested in. And then I knew someone who was a volunteer had been a volunteer in Liberia. And I and the parents of my high school friend, they encouraged me to apply.

[Assistant] And you said you met a recruiter as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up I was born in New York. I grew up in New Jersey. Suburban New Jersey mayor. And then but I was living in Massachusetts and I went to high school and college in Massachusetts. Sudbury, Massachusetts was where my parents were living. And I had. Actually I was working in an administrative capacity at MIT and had met a Peace Corps recruiter there.

[Assistant] So you weren’t straight out of college?

[User] No, I wasn't. No, I was 26. Now, when I became a volunteer, I'd been working for about two years. I graduated from Regis College in Weston, Massachusetts, with a political science and French major and studied in France. And I and then got this job at MIT. Yeah, nice people, but it wasn't really what I was interested in. And then I knew someone who was a volunteer had been a volunteer in Liberia. And I and the parents of my high school friend, they encouraged me to apply.

[Assistant] And you said you met a recruiter as well?

[User] Yes. The recruiter came to MIT, and so I went and interviewed up and applied. Then I don't remember anything about meeting with the recruiter or the up and so up. And then they found out during the summer that I thought I was going to be going to go to Benin. I went and looked up in the library to see because I didn't recognize that name. And so I started to get ready.

[Assistant] And where did you meet up with the rest of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn't. No, I was 26. Now, when I became a volunteer, I'd been working for about two years. I graduated from Regis College in Weston, Massachusetts, with a political science and French major and studied in France. And I and then got this job at MIT. Yeah, nice people, but it wasn't really what I was interested in. And then I knew someone who was a volunteer had been a volunteer in Liberia. And I and the parents of my high school friend, they encouraged me to apply.

[Assistant] And you said you met a recruiter as well?

[User] Yes. The recruiter came to MIT, and so I went and interviewed up and applied. Then I don't remember anything about meeting with the recruiter or the up and so up. And then they found out during the summer that I thought I was going to be going to go to Benin. I went and looked up in the library to see because I didn't recognize that name. And so I started to get ready.

[Assistant] And where did you meet up with the rest of the group?

[User] In Philadelphia. We did about a week, I think, about a week just before we were set to go over, just before Thanksgiving in 1980. And so met in Philadelphia. Received brief orientation. I remember a lot of shots at the time. And I and then Ed's left Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Was everybody in a TEFL group? Was the whole group TEFL?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The recruiter came to MIT, and so I went and interviewed up and applied. Then I don't remember anything about meeting with the recruiter or the up and so up. And then they found out during the summer that I thought I was going to be going to go to Benin. I went and looked up in the library to see because I didn't recognize that name. And so I started to get ready.

[Assistant] And where did you meet up with the rest of the group?

[User] In Philadelphia. We did about a week, I think, about a week just before we were set to go over, just before Thanksgiving in 1980. And so met in Philadelphia. Received brief orientation. I remember a lot of shots at the time. And I and then Ed's left Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Was everybody in a TEFL group? Was the whole group TEFL?

[User] Most of it. There were 31 of us that were teachers. And then there were also four appropriate technology volunteers who were doing what were called Lorena Stoves development, L-O-R-E-N-A. So there were four of them and the other 31 were training to be teachers. And there was TEFL, physics, math and biology.

[Assistant] And you were in TEFL?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Philadelphia. We did about a week, I think, about a week just before we were set to go over, just before Thanksgiving in 1980. And so met in Philadelphia. Received brief orientation. I remember a lot of shots at the time. And I and then Ed's left Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Was everybody in a TEFL group? Was the whole group TEFL?

[User] Most of it. There were 31 of us that were teachers. And then there were also four appropriate technology volunteers who were doing what were called Lorena Stoves development, L-O-R-E-N-A. So there were four of them and the other 31 were training to be teachers. And there was TEFL, physics, math and biology.

[Assistant] And you were in TEFL?

[User] I was in the TEFL group.

[Assistant] So after a week in Philadelphia you all flew off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of it. There were 31 of us that were teachers. And then there were also four appropriate technology volunteers who were doing what were called Lorena Stoves development, L-O-R-E-N-A. So there were four of them and the other 31 were training to be teachers. And there was TEFL, physics, math and biology.

[Assistant] And you were in TEFL?

[User] I was in the TEFL group.

[Assistant] So after a week in Philadelphia you all flew off?

[User] We took off, took off for Paris and then flew down to and from Paris down to, well eventually to Cotonou, Benin.

[Assistant] Is that, is that the capital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the TEFL group.

[Assistant] So after a week in Philadelphia you all flew off?

[User] We took off, took off for Paris and then flew down to and from Paris down to, well eventually to Cotonou, Benin.

[Assistant] Is that, is that the capital?

[User] No, that's the commercial center, the capital of Benin is Porto-Novo. And then, uh, we had yeah.

[Assistant] You flew to Cote?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We took off, took off for Paris and then flew down to and from Paris down to, well eventually to Cotonou, Benin.

[Assistant] Is that, is that the capital?

[User] No, that's the commercial center, the capital of Benin is Porto-Novo. And then, uh, we had yeah.

[Assistant] You flew to Cote?

[User] Cote d’Ivoire. We flew to Abidjan, we were supposed to stop in Ouagadougou. Oh gosh, I'm trying to remember every country of the to the north, not Mali. Burkina Faso. That's it. We were supposed to stop there but there had been a coup and so we did not stop there. And but it landed in Abidjan and got on local Air Afrique to fly to Contonou, Benin. So it was we were all together and had gotten to know people over the week, you know, that we were in in Benin and then were in training in Benin for a couple of months.

[Assistant] And where was the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that's the commercial center, the capital of Benin is Porto-Novo. And then, uh, we had yeah.

[Assistant] You flew to Cote?

[User] Cote d’Ivoire. We flew to Abidjan, we were supposed to stop in Ouagadougou. Oh gosh, I'm trying to remember every country of the to the north, not Mali. Burkina Faso. That's it. We were supposed to stop there but there had been a coup and so we did not stop there. And but it landed in Abidjan and got on local Air Afrique to fly to Contonou, Benin. So it was we were all together and had gotten to know people over the week, you know, that we were in in Benin and then were in training in Benin for a couple of months.

[Assistant] And where was the training?

[User] That was in Cotonou, the, uh, that was that a place called Codiam. And that and that was a, you know, kind of an educational center now. But it also had rooms and everything, although there were other people living there. And I remember some Zairian students, that was back when it was called Zaire, being there. As we said, the interesting thing was we had a staff, contract staff basically, who were doing the training and some of them were Beninese. A lot of the trainees didn't speak French, the English teachers, as a matter of fact, spoke the best French in the group, and since they were to be, you know, teaching in French, this was kind of difficult for them. So they had Beninese teachers.

[Assistant] Teaching them French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in Cotonou, the, uh, that was that a place called Codiam. And that and that was a, you know, kind of an educational center now. But it also had rooms and everything, although there were other people living there. And I remember some Zairian students, that was back when it was called Zaire, being there. As we said, the interesting thing was we had a staff, contract staff basically, who were doing the training and some of them were Beninese. A lot of the trainees didn't speak French, the English teachers, as a matter of fact, spoke the best French in the group, and since they were to be, you know, teaching in French, this was kind of difficult for them. So they had Beninese teachers.

[Assistant] Teaching them French?

[User] Teaching them French, but also doing the technical training. And were more Americans working under contract all the time. When we arrived in country, there were only four volunteers who were in country. And the reason that was such a small group was that there had been some political issues of the in the late ‘70s, there had been an attempted invasion. Benin is a very poor country and it was kind of improbable, I think, that that Americans or Americans backed armed forces were trying to invade Benin, but there were. It was a time when a government was Marxist-Leninist, at least on paper.

[Assistant] When you came?

[User] When I came, but they had asked for assistance. And so a lot of the that's why one of the reasons that there were only four volunteers in country, because there hadn't been a group that had gone over recently.

[Assistant] Had they'd been kicked out before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Teaching them French, but also doing the technical training. And were more Americans working under contract all the time. When we arrived in country, there were only four volunteers who were in country. And the reason that was such a small group was that there had been some political issues of the in the late ‘70s, there had been an attempted invasion. Benin is a very poor country and it was kind of improbable, I think, that that Americans or Americans backed armed forces were trying to invade Benin, but there were. It was a time when a government was Marxist-Leninist, at least on paper.

[Assistant] When you came?

[User] When I came, but they had asked for assistance. And so a lot of the that's why one of the reasons that there were only four volunteers in country, because there hadn't been a group that had gone over recently.

[Assistant] Had they'd been kicked out before?

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] So then you well, you weren’t the first group, you were the second group back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I came, but they had asked for assistance. And so a lot of the that's why one of the reasons that there were only four volunteers in country, because there hadn't been a group that had gone over recently.

[Assistant] Had they'd been kicked out before?

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] So then you well, you weren’t the first group, you were the second group back.

[User] Yeah. The Peace Corps had been in Benin since the ‘60s, but as I say, up in the mid ‘70s, it's due to this political due to this quote unquote, invasion, the Americans had been had been kicked out.

[Assistant] Because Benin accused the United States of backing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] So then you well, you weren’t the first group, you were the second group back.

[User] Yeah. The Peace Corps had been in Benin since the ‘60s, but as I say, up in the mid ‘70s, it's due to this political due to this quote unquote, invasion, the Americans had been had been kicked out.

[Assistant] Because Benin accused the United States of backing?

[User] Backing the people that were invading. Not something that was really talked about very much, you know. So it was something that my recollection of it at this point is spotty.

[Assistant] Did you feel anti-Americanism when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The Peace Corps had been in Benin since the ‘60s, but as I say, up in the mid ‘70s, it's due to this political due to this quote unquote, invasion, the Americans had been had been kicked out.

[Assistant] Because Benin accused the United States of backing?

[User] Backing the people that were invading. Not something that was really talked about very much, you know. So it was something that my recollection of it at this point is spotty.

[Assistant] Did you feel anti-Americanism when you were there?

[User] No, no. Once it was clear that we were. At one point, because I spoke French so well and because my accent was it was Parisian, they said, are you French? And they were hostile kind of towards the French. And although they were taking aid from the French, from France. And I said, no, that as an American. And that was fine. So it's no, I think a lot of people didn't know any Americans, you know, and the experiences that they had had no work that were favorable of this was kind of, um. So we had gone to the.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the training. You clearly didn't need French, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Backing the people that were invading. Not something that was really talked about very much, you know. So it was something that my recollection of it at this point is spotty.

[Assistant] Did you feel anti-Americanism when you were there?

[User] No, no. Once it was clear that we were. At one point, because I spoke French so well and because my accent was it was Parisian, they said, are you French? And they were hostile kind of towards the French. And although they were taking aid from the French, from France. And I said, no, that as an American. And that was fine. So it's no, I think a lot of people didn't know any Americans, you know, and the experiences that they had had no work that were favorable of this was kind of, um. So we had gone to the.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the training. You clearly didn't need French, did you?

[User] No, I didn't need French training. No.

[Assistant] But other people went through French training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Once it was clear that we were. At one point, because I spoke French so well and because my accent was it was Parisian, they said, are you French? And they were hostile kind of towards the French. And although they were taking aid from the French, from France. And I said, no, that as an American. And that was fine. So it's no, I think a lot of people didn't know any Americans, you know, and the experiences that they had had no work that were favorable of this was kind of, um. So we had gone to the.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the training. You clearly didn't need French, did you?

[User] No, I didn't need French training. No.

[Assistant] But other people went through French training?

[User] Yes. And then technical training.

[Assistant] Yeah. How was the TEFL training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't need French training. No.

[Assistant] But other people went through French training?

[User] Yes. And then technical training.

[Assistant] Yeah. How was the TEFL training?

[User] That was, I understand that it's well different from training here in the United States, you know, to teach English as a second language or as a foreign language. You know, some of my friends that I served with in Benin and had gone on to be Teaching English as a Second Language teachers. We learned, you know, basically through a practice of how to how to teach, you know, not doing a lot of translation, although I was capable of doing that. Most of the English teachers spoke pretty good French and I, uh, and not doing translations.

[Assistant] But did you learn other local languages as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And then technical training.

[Assistant] Yeah. How was the TEFL training?

[User] That was, I understand that it's well different from training here in the United States, you know, to teach English as a second language or as a foreign language. You know, some of my friends that I served with in Benin and had gone on to be Teaching English as a Second Language teachers. We learned, you know, basically through a practice of how to how to teach, you know, not doing a lot of translation, although I was capable of doing that. Most of the English teachers spoke pretty good French and I, uh, and not doing translations.

[Assistant] But did you learn other local languages as well?

[User] Well, I had difficulty learning a local language. Not in not in the training. Not in the initial training.

[Assistant] The initial training was all in French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was, I understand that it's well different from training here in the United States, you know, to teach English as a second language or as a foreign language. You know, some of my friends that I served with in Benin and had gone on to be Teaching English as a Second Language teachers. We learned, you know, basically through a practice of how to how to teach, you know, not doing a lot of translation, although I was capable of doing that. Most of the English teachers spoke pretty good French and I, uh, and not doing translations.

[Assistant] But did you learn other local languages as well?

[User] Well, I had difficulty learning a local language. Not in not in the training. Not in the initial training.

[Assistant] The initial training was all in French?

[User] Yes. It was a total immersion.

[Assistant] And does everybody in Benin speak French or did everybody at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had difficulty learning a local language. Not in not in the training. Not in the initial training.

[Assistant] The initial training was all in French?

[User] Yes. It was a total immersion.

[Assistant] And does everybody in Benin speak French or did everybody at that point?

[User] No, there were at. It is the national language, but it is. There were forty local languages. They're not written down. They're tonal. I had difficulty picking up a local language and I did learn a little once I was at my post. But, uh, but there were some people that were better than others.

[Assistant] Oh, did you have, did you do practice teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was a total immersion.

[Assistant] And does everybody in Benin speak French or did everybody at that point?

[User] No, there were at. It is the national language, but it is. There were forty local languages. They're not written down. They're tonal. I had difficulty picking up a local language and I did learn a little once I was at my post. But, uh, but there were some people that were better than others.

[Assistant] Oh, did you have, did you do practice teaching?

[User] Yes, yes. There was a school near Codiam where we did practice teaching and then so that went fine and then I felt comfortable with it though I'm not I'm not really a born teacher. I'll be honest. That was one of the reasons I didn't go into teaching when I got back. The some people really were gifted that at no, I did not fall into that category.

[Assistant] And what kind of, were you trained to teach children or adults or what? What kind of TEFL did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there were at. It is the national language, but it is. There were forty local languages. They're not written down. They're tonal. I had difficulty picking up a local language and I did learn a little once I was at my post. But, uh, but there were some people that were better than others.

[Assistant] Oh, did you have, did you do practice teaching?

[User] Yes, yes. There was a school near Codiam where we did practice teaching and then so that went fine and then I felt comfortable with it though I'm not I'm not really a born teacher. I'll be honest. That was one of the reasons I didn't go into teaching when I got back. The some people really were gifted that at no, I did not fall into that category.

[Assistant] And what kind of, were you trained to teach children or adults or what? What kind of TEFL did you do?

[User] English was a required subject in their secondary school, so this would be middle school and high school. I did not. Taught at the middle school level. I would be equivalencies like the seventh grade, I think seventh and eighth grade and then 10th grade also because they did not want an American and non-African or Beninese to teach the senior year because that was Nigerian literature and they wanted an African point of view for that. But I did teach at the 10th grade level or the equivalent to 10th grade level.

[Assistant] So you just said it's Nigerian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. There was a school near Codiam where we did practice teaching and then so that went fine and then I felt comfortable with it though I'm not I'm not really a born teacher. I'll be honest. That was one of the reasons I didn't go into teaching when I got back. The some people really were gifted that at no, I did not fall into that category.

[Assistant] And what kind of, were you trained to teach children or adults or what? What kind of TEFL did you do?

[User] English was a required subject in their secondary school, so this would be middle school and high school. I did not. Taught at the middle school level. I would be equivalencies like the seventh grade, I think seventh and eighth grade and then 10th grade also because they did not want an American and non-African or Beninese to teach the senior year because that was Nigerian literature and they wanted an African point of view for that. But I did teach at the 10th grade level or the equivalent to 10th grade level.

[Assistant] So you just said it's Nigerian?

[User] Nigerian authors basically.

[Assistant] So like the Nigerian authors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] English was a required subject in their secondary school, so this would be middle school and high school. I did not. Taught at the middle school level. I would be equivalencies like the seventh grade, I think seventh and eighth grade and then 10th grade also because they did not want an American and non-African or Beninese to teach the senior year because that was Nigerian literature and they wanted an African point of view for that. But I did teach at the 10th grade level or the equivalent to 10th grade level.

[Assistant] So you just said it's Nigerian?

[User] Nigerian authors basically.

[Assistant] So like the Nigerian authors?

[User] Yeah. Yes. It was Nigerian authors that. Benin is right next to Nigeria. And so the senior year class read Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart. And other Nigerian authors like that.

[Assistant] Ok, so that was all. You were teaching English as well as English literature, I guess?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nigerian authors basically.

[Assistant] So like the Nigerian authors?

[User] Yeah. Yes. It was Nigerian authors that. Benin is right next to Nigeria. And so the senior year class read Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart. And other Nigerian authors like that.

[Assistant] Ok, so that was all. You were teaching English as well as English literature, I guess?

[User] Well, English, basically, to be honest, at the elementary school in Benin was taught in a in a local language, in the appropriate local language. And so when they got to their final year in elementary school and into middle school, time was when they were learning French. And so my French was actually better than theirs. And I'd been studying it for 20 years or 20 plus years at that point. So it was kind of odd. So class size was 60, you know, 60 to 120. Tremendous classes, mostly male students. Very, very few girls. You had to pay up to go to school there.

[Assistant] So where did you end up teaching? You were trained in the training facility and then where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yes. It was Nigerian authors that. Benin is right next to Nigeria. And so the senior year class read Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart. And other Nigerian authors like that.

[Assistant] Ok, so that was all. You were teaching English as well as English literature, I guess?

[User] Well, English, basically, to be honest, at the elementary school in Benin was taught in a in a local language, in the appropriate local language. And so when they got to their final year in elementary school and into middle school, time was when they were learning French. And so my French was actually better than theirs. And I'd been studying it for 20 years or 20 plus years at that point. So it was kind of odd. So class size was 60, you know, 60 to 120. Tremendous classes, mostly male students. Very, very few girls. You had to pay up to go to school there.

[Assistant] So where did you end up teaching? You were trained in the training facility and then where?

[User] And then I went into my post up in Parakou, Benin. Up in the north, with two other, two other volunteers, one of whom left not long after arriving up there. But Ed David was teaching biology at one of the high schools and Parakou was a large city.

[Assistant] How big of a city is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, English, basically, to be honest, at the elementary school in Benin was taught in a in a local language, in the appropriate local language. And so when they got to their final year in elementary school and into middle school, time was when they were learning French. And so my French was actually better than theirs. And I'd been studying it for 20 years or 20 plus years at that point. So it was kind of odd. So class size was 60, you know, 60 to 120. Tremendous classes, mostly male students. Very, very few girls. You had to pay up to go to school there.

[Assistant] So where did you end up teaching? You were trained in the training facility and then where?

[User] And then I went into my post up in Parakou, Benin. Up in the north, with two other, two other volunteers, one of whom left not long after arriving up there. But Ed David was teaching biology at one of the high schools and Parakou was a large city.

[Assistant] How big of a city is that?

[User] Oh, probably about 20 or 30 thousand. Oh, I'm thinking yeah, it was a good sized city. Yes, it was the principal city up in the north of there, about halfway up the country at the end of the train line.

[Assistant] And so you took so after training, you took the train up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I went into my post up in Parakou, Benin. Up in the north, with two other, two other volunteers, one of whom left not long after arriving up there. But Ed David was teaching biology at one of the high schools and Parakou was a large city.

[Assistant] How big of a city is that?

[User] Oh, probably about 20 or 30 thousand. Oh, I'm thinking yeah, it was a good sized city. Yes, it was the principal city up in the north of there, about halfway up the country at the end of the train line.

[Assistant] And so you took so after training, you took the train up?

[User] Yes, the train. I took the train up.

[Assistant] You and David and the other person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, probably about 20 or 30 thousand. Oh, I'm thinking yeah, it was a good sized city. Yes, it was the principal city up in the north of there, about halfway up the country at the end of the train line.

[Assistant] And so you took so after training, you took the train up?

[User] Yes, the train. I took the train up.

[Assistant] You and David and the other person?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And where did you end up living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the train. I took the train up.

[Assistant] You and David and the other person?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And where did you end up living?

[User] Initially, there was an apartment that David had because he was teaching at the lycée, the high school, that they had apartments for French volunteers were there and German volunteers that were there working up there, but I eventually found a house near the Peace Corps, as you know, arranged for up with officials in Paris who opted for a separate house. It's luckily for me and part of a compound, though, I was the only person living there, basically. So I did not live with a family. I understand now that in training that people live with families. This is something that since Peace Corps presence and the number of volunteers in country was so small, that really wasn't an opportunity to go out and find places, you know, for people to live. We did our, we did a live-in that we would have normally done with someone that volunteered in Benin, over in Togo, as a matter of fact, because there were teachers over there.

[Assistant] So that was before you were assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And where did you end up living?

[User] Initially, there was an apartment that David had because he was teaching at the lycée, the high school, that they had apartments for French volunteers were there and German volunteers that were there working up there, but I eventually found a house near the Peace Corps, as you know, arranged for up with officials in Paris who opted for a separate house. It's luckily for me and part of a compound, though, I was the only person living there, basically. So I did not live with a family. I understand now that in training that people live with families. This is something that since Peace Corps presence and the number of volunteers in country was so small, that really wasn't an opportunity to go out and find places, you know, for people to live. We did our, we did a live-in that we would have normally done with someone that volunteered in Benin, over in Togo, as a matter of fact, because there were teachers over there.

[Assistant] So that was before you were assigned?

[User] Yes, exactly. That that was part of my training that we went over to Togo, living in Togo.

[Assistant] And how long was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Initially, there was an apartment that David had because he was teaching at the lycée, the high school, that they had apartments for French volunteers were there and German volunteers that were there working up there, but I eventually found a house near the Peace Corps, as you know, arranged for up with officials in Paris who opted for a separate house. It's luckily for me and part of a compound, though, I was the only person living there, basically. So I did not live with a family. I understand now that in training that people live with families. This is something that since Peace Corps presence and the number of volunteers in country was so small, that really wasn't an opportunity to go out and find places, you know, for people to live. We did our, we did a live-in that we would have normally done with someone that volunteered in Benin, over in Togo, as a matter of fact, because there were teachers over there.

[Assistant] So that was before you were assigned?

[User] Yes, exactly. That that was part of my training that we went over to Togo, living in Togo.

[Assistant] And how long was that?

[User] Oh, I think a week or two. Just a very short period of time that I stayed with volunteer who was an English TEFL volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, so you lived with a Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, exactly. That that was part of my training that we went over to Togo, living in Togo.

[Assistant] And how long was that?

[User] Oh, I think a week or two. Just a very short period of time that I stayed with volunteer who was an English TEFL volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, so you lived with a Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Was that useful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think a week or two. Just a very short period of time that I stayed with volunteer who was an English TEFL volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, so you lived with a Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Was that useful?

[User] Yes, because I hadn't seen, you know, someone really teaching and she was teaching in school at that time that even though the students in Benin were still on the winter break because they were on, in Togo, they were on a traditional September to June schedule, academic schedule. And so would. But we went back to Benin and went out to our posts and I was sworn-in in February of 1981.

[Assistant] Ok, so. So you ended up there. And what school did you teach at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Was that useful?

[User] Yes, because I hadn't seen, you know, someone really teaching and she was teaching in school at that time that even though the students in Benin were still on the winter break because they were on, in Togo, they were on a traditional September to June schedule, academic schedule. And so would. But we went back to Benin and went out to our posts and I was sworn-in in February of 1981.

[Assistant] Ok, so. So you ended up there. And what school did you teach at?

[User] I taught at a CEMG, C-E-M-G.

[Assistant] So we can talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught at a CEMG, C-E-M-G.

[Assistant] So we can talk about that.

[User] Yeah. You know that this is something that it was like.

[Assistant] C-E-M-G.

[User] Yeah. School. Like the combination of the American middle school and high school basically.

[Assistant] So you were saying it was mostly boys and paid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know that this is something that it was like.

[Assistant] C-E-M-G.

[User] Yeah. School. Like the combination of the American middle school and high school basically.

[Assistant] So you were saying it was mostly boys and paid.

[User] Yes. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Were you the only female teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. School. Like the combination of the American middle school and high school basically.

[Assistant] So you were saying it was mostly boys and paid.

[User] Yes. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Were you the only female teacher?

[User] No. No, I wasn't there. I remember a couple of a couple of women teachers, not a lot, but it was, um. A lot of people in Benin had gone and done training in France, you know, teachers and staff. And there was a college in Benin, but a lot of the teachers and other professionals had gone for training in Benin, I'm sorry, in France. Talk about a brain drain of where they took people from West Africa and set them for training in France. And then people wouldn't want to come back. And I, and so they kind of, they didn't do that as much. And that was much more difficult to go for training for the teachers to go for training.

[Assistant] By the time you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Were you the only female teacher?

[User] No. No, I wasn't there. I remember a couple of a couple of women teachers, not a lot, but it was, um. A lot of people in Benin had gone and done training in France, you know, teachers and staff. And there was a college in Benin, but a lot of the teachers and other professionals had gone for training in Benin, I'm sorry, in France. Talk about a brain drain of where they took people from West Africa and set them for training in France. And then people wouldn't want to come back. And I, and so they kind of, they didn't do that as much. And that was much more difficult to go for training for the teachers to go for training.

[Assistant] By the time you were there?

[User] By the time I was there.

[Assistant] But the older ones had come back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I wasn't there. I remember a couple of a couple of women teachers, not a lot, but it was, um. A lot of people in Benin had gone and done training in France, you know, teachers and staff. And there was a college in Benin, but a lot of the teachers and other professionals had gone for training in Benin, I'm sorry, in France. Talk about a brain drain of where they took people from West Africa and set them for training in France. And then people wouldn't want to come back. And I, and so they kind of, they didn't do that as much. And that was much more difficult to go for training for the teachers to go for training.

[Assistant] By the time you were there?

[User] By the time I was there.

[Assistant] But the older ones had come back.

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Did you become friends with those teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By the time I was there.

[Assistant] But the older ones had come back.

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Did you become friends with those teachers?

[User] Yes. Yes. Not so much in Parakou because I changed posts after a year there. I changed posts then and I made more friends at my second posting.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk a little bit about the first post. So what, what did you, how many classes did you teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Did you become friends with those teachers?

[User] Yes. Yes. Not so much in Parakou because I changed posts after a year there. I changed posts then and I made more friends at my second posting.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk a little bit about the first post. So what, what did you, how many classes did you teach?

[User] Oh, four or five.

[Assistant] So you were busy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Not so much in Parakou because I changed posts after a year there. I changed posts then and I made more friends at my second posting.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk a little bit about the first post. So what, what did you, how many classes did you teach?

[User] Oh, four or five.

[Assistant] So you were busy?

[User] I was quite busy, a lot of you know that I remember writing on the board and the students didn't have books there. Very few people had books that I did a lot of writing on the board. And then they would write up their case in their notebooks as well. And we would practice, you know, what's very oral. And then I, uh, I think the students got to know the kind of American kind of pronunciation.

[Assistant] Oh, so you did that. What did you do in your spare time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, four or five.

[Assistant] So you were busy?

[User] I was quite busy, a lot of you know that I remember writing on the board and the students didn't have books there. Very few people had books that I did a lot of writing on the board. And then they would write up their case in their notebooks as well. And we would practice, you know, what's very oral. And then I, uh, I think the students got to know the kind of American kind of pronunciation.

[Assistant] Oh, so you did that. What did you do in your spare time?

[User] And it's not a whole lot of the, uh, the it's been a lot of time correcting, you know, reviewing papers and a lot of testing. A lot of testing. Yes.

[Assistant] That was your idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was quite busy, a lot of you know that I remember writing on the board and the students didn't have books there. Very few people had books that I did a lot of writing on the board. And then they would write up their case in their notebooks as well. And we would practice, you know, what's very oral. And then I, uh, I think the students got to know the kind of American kind of pronunciation.

[Assistant] Oh, so you did that. What did you do in your spare time?

[User] And it's not a whole lot of the, uh, the it's been a lot of time correcting, you know, reviewing papers and a lot of testing. A lot of testing. Yes.

[Assistant] That was your idea?

[User] No, that was that was required. Yeah. No, that was required.

[Assistant] So did they have the French curriculum at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's not a whole lot of the, uh, the it's been a lot of time correcting, you know, reviewing papers and a lot of testing. A lot of testing. Yes.

[Assistant] That was your idea?

[User] No, that was that was required. Yeah. No, that was required.

[Assistant] So did they have the French curriculum at that point?

[User] Yes. No, it was, well it was Beninese, but it was heavily influenced by the French curriculum.

[Assistant] So you live by yourself. Were you lonely or did you make some good of it? You said there was another Peace Corps volunteer there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was that was required. Yeah. No, that was required.

[Assistant] So did they have the French curriculum at that point?

[User] Yes. No, it was, well it was Beninese, but it was heavily influenced by the French curriculum.

[Assistant] So you live by yourself. Were you lonely or did you make some good of it? You said there was another Peace Corps volunteer there.

[User] Yes. And so I used to, uh, get in there with David, at the time lived together for at least a couple of months before I found the place of my own place, basically. The other thing is that I was sick fairly frequently, unfortunately, this was something that and so would get on the train to go down to see the Peace Corps nurse and the Peace Corps doctor in Togo, in Lomé, Togo now. But there was a nurse in Benin in Cotonou. You know, and so it seemed almost every month, probably because I wasn't being careful about what I was eating and that this was kind of. That was one of the reasons that I decided that I wanted to move further south is so I wouldn't be away from the post as much, and so the opportunity came up.

[Assistant] Did you do cooking on your own or how did you keep getting sick?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. No, it was, well it was Beninese, but it was heavily influenced by the French curriculum.

[Assistant] So you live by yourself. Were you lonely or did you make some good of it? You said there was another Peace Corps volunteer there.

[User] Yes. And so I used to, uh, get in there with David, at the time lived together for at least a couple of months before I found the place of my own place, basically. The other thing is that I was sick fairly frequently, unfortunately, this was something that and so would get on the train to go down to see the Peace Corps nurse and the Peace Corps doctor in Togo, in Lomé, Togo now. But there was a nurse in Benin in Cotonou. You know, and so it seemed almost every month, probably because I wasn't being careful about what I was eating and that this was kind of. That was one of the reasons that I decided that I wanted to move further south is so I wouldn't be away from the post as much, and so the opportunity came up.

[Assistant] Did you do cooking on your own or how did you keep getting sick?

[User] So I would go out and eat on the street basically. Yes, I did the cooking, but not not a lot.

[Assistant] So you ate on the street and got sick?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And so I used to, uh, get in there with David, at the time lived together for at least a couple of months before I found the place of my own place, basically. The other thing is that I was sick fairly frequently, unfortunately, this was something that and so would get on the train to go down to see the Peace Corps nurse and the Peace Corps doctor in Togo, in Lomé, Togo now. But there was a nurse in Benin in Cotonou. You know, and so it seemed almost every month, probably because I wasn't being careful about what I was eating and that this was kind of. That was one of the reasons that I decided that I wanted to move further south is so I wouldn't be away from the post as much, and so the opportunity came up.

[Assistant] Did you do cooking on your own or how did you keep getting sick?

[User] So I would go out and eat on the street basically. Yes, I did the cooking, but not not a lot.

[Assistant] So you ate on the street and got sick?

[User] Yes, yes. Yes. And so the bathroom facilities weren't very advanced either.

[Assistant] You have an outhouse kind of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I would go out and eat on the street basically. Yes, I did the cooking, but not not a lot.

[Assistant] So you ate on the street and got sick?

[User] Yes, yes. Yes. And so the bathroom facilities weren't very advanced either.

[Assistant] You have an outhouse kind of?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you have running water in your house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. Yes. And so the bathroom facilities weren't very advanced either.

[Assistant] You have an outhouse kind of?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you have running water in your house?

[User] No, no, no. And I did have electricity. I had a cistern and then as I say did have electricity. But it did not have running water. No. Although Parakou was developed, you know, a developed city, but not, not in the homes pretty much though. David did have running water and everything, but the lycee apartments were this was where, as I say, people who were doing volunteer work from Germany and France would come to live and work with some of the living facilities were very nice. So we go and hang out there.

[Assistant] So why did you move out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you have running water in your house?

[User] No, no, no. And I did have electricity. I had a cistern and then as I say did have electricity. But it did not have running water. No. Although Parakou was developed, you know, a developed city, but not, not in the homes pretty much though. David did have running water and everything, but the lycee apartments were this was where, as I say, people who were doing volunteer work from Germany and France would come to live and work with some of the living facilities were very nice. So we go and hang out there.

[Assistant] So why did you move out?

[User] Oh, it's because I wasn't teaching at the lycee, I was teaching at another high school. And so I had to move out, that wasn't that wasn't an option for me to stay there, basically.

[Assistant] And you moved close to the lycee?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. And I did have electricity. I had a cistern and then as I say did have electricity. But it did not have running water. No. Although Parakou was developed, you know, a developed city, but not, not in the homes pretty much though. David did have running water and everything, but the lycee apartments were this was where, as I say, people who were doing volunteer work from Germany and France would come to live and work with some of the living facilities were very nice. So we go and hang out there.

[Assistant] So why did you move out?

[User] Oh, it's because I wasn't teaching at the lycee, I was teaching at another high school. And so I had to move out, that wasn't that wasn't an option for me to stay there, basically.

[Assistant] And you moved close to the lycee?

[User] Yeah, I moved closer to the CEMG job. I was bicycling, you know, back and forth to school. I would go to school in the morning and then at lunchtime at noon, go home and have lunch and then go back at three because of the heat, you know, in the middle of the day. So it was kind of.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you travel during, before you went to your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it's because I wasn't teaching at the lycee, I was teaching at another high school. And so I had to move out, that wasn't that wasn't an option for me to stay there, basically.

[Assistant] And you moved close to the lycee?

[User] Yeah, I moved closer to the CEMG job. I was bicycling, you know, back and forth to school. I would go to school in the morning and then at lunchtime at noon, go home and have lunch and then go back at three because of the heat, you know, in the middle of the day. So it was kind of.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you travel during, before you went to your second year?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I moved closer to the CEMG job. I was bicycling, you know, back and forth to school. I would go to school in the morning and then at lunchtime at noon, go home and have lunch and then go back at three because of the heat, you know, in the middle of the day. So it was kind of.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you travel during, before you went to your second year?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you go?

[User] Yes. Well in November of 1981 I was up and I was traveling around visiting other volunteers in the north. And I also did, I proctored exams, you know, traveled in November at another school, basically not where I taught, but at another school. One thing that I remember, of course, is the going and meeting the headmaster of the school on Monday morning before going into proctor an exam. And he, in order to be hospitable, he pulled out his bottle of gin and colonaut. The colonaut was the traditional way to be hospitable. But basically it's heavy and caffeine and the bottle of gin at nine a.m. and five

[Assistant] It’s a little early.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you go?

[User] Yes. Well in November of 1981 I was up and I was traveling around visiting other volunteers in the north. And I also did, I proctored exams, you know, traveled in November at another school, basically not where I taught, but at another school. One thing that I remember, of course, is the going and meeting the headmaster of the school on Monday morning before going into proctor an exam. And he, in order to be hospitable, he pulled out his bottle of gin and colonaut. The colonaut was the traditional way to be hospitable. But basically it's heavy and caffeine and the bottle of gin at nine a.m. and five

[Assistant] It’s a little early.

[User] No, a little early, yeah. Oh that that came. Didn't drink very much. Yeah. No, but that was their way of being a welcoming hospitable and I did that and then up and then in late November, I guess it was around Thanksgiving, I was traveling to visit a friend and other volunteer in Natitingou, another northern city in Benin and was found there in Natitingou by the Peace Corps chauffeur whose name was Osene. And the reason that he had come to, uh, to pick me up was because the Peace Corps had gotten word that my father was in the hospital on intensive care and was very ill. That so had come up to get me and I went home. But it was during that time of, actually this was in December, it wasn't. But I heard the story about at Thanksgiving meal, which we had celebrated the previous year with embassy staff, basically because there weren't other people around. And then in 1981 there an embassy contractor who had gotten drunk and had driven on to the military base where the president of Benin at the time had been staying and was shot.

[Assistant] A Peace Corps contractor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, a little early, yeah. Oh that that came. Didn't drink very much. Yeah. No, but that was their way of being a welcoming hospitable and I did that and then up and then in late November, I guess it was around Thanksgiving, I was traveling to visit a friend and other volunteer in Natitingou, another northern city in Benin and was found there in Natitingou by the Peace Corps chauffeur whose name was Osene. And the reason that he had come to, uh, to pick me up was because the Peace Corps had gotten word that my father was in the hospital on intensive care and was very ill. That so had come up to get me and I went home. But it was during that time of, actually this was in December, it wasn't. But I heard the story about at Thanksgiving meal, which we had celebrated the previous year with embassy staff, basically because there weren't other people around. And then in 1981 there an embassy contractor who had gotten drunk and had driven on to the military base where the president of Benin at the time had been staying and was shot.

[Assistant] A Peace Corps contractor?

[User] No, this was actually the embassy contractor, a contractor working for the embassy, was shot and was jailed. And things were very uncomfortable at Benin. And the Peace Corps was making plans to evacuate the volunteers because it was a very tense time. This was then, as I say, right after Thanksgiving and this man was drunk, had been onto the military base and things became very, very complicated. And where they were, as I said, I learned in my drive down with Osene in December about all of this because we up north hadn't even heard about, you know, what had happened. And Peace Corps was making plans to evacuate.

[Assistant] But you were going home anyway?

[User] But I was going home anyway because of my father. And so it was this was mid-December that I was and that got word that the father was very ill. And fortunately, he recovered, but was in intensive care for quite a long time. And so they evacuated me.

[Assistant] Did they evacuate everybody else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, this was actually the embassy contractor, a contractor working for the embassy, was shot and was jailed. And things were very uncomfortable at Benin. And the Peace Corps was making plans to evacuate the volunteers because it was a very tense time. This was then, as I say, right after Thanksgiving and this man was drunk, had been onto the military base and things became very, very complicated. And where they were, as I said, I learned in my drive down with Osene in December about all of this because we up north hadn't even heard about, you know, what had happened. And Peace Corps was making plans to evacuate.

[Assistant] But you were going home anyway?

[User] But I was going home anyway because of my father. And so it was this was mid-December that I was and that got word that the father was very ill. And fortunately, he recovered, but was in intensive care for quite a long time. And so they evacuated me.

[Assistant] Did they evacuate everybody else?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] They were just thinking about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I was going home anyway because of my father. And so it was this was mid-December that I was and that got word that the father was very ill. And fortunately, he recovered, but was in intensive care for quite a long time. And so they evacuated me.

[Assistant] Did they evacuate everybody else?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] They were just thinking about it.

[User] Yes, they were thinking about it. They were making preparations that basically. I believe this was at a time when, you know, volunteers had their own passports and everything. But there were some new volunteers that are new trainees who were just, you know, come in and their passports were with the Beninese government for their visa. So it was quite tense up. But fortunately, things deescalated and as I say, mid-December, I arrived home just before Christmas.

[Assistant] And then how long did you go back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] They were just thinking about it.

[User] Yes, they were thinking about it. They were making preparations that basically. I believe this was at a time when, you know, volunteers had their own passports and everything. But there were some new volunteers that are new trainees who were just, you know, come in and their passports were with the Beninese government for their visa. So it was quite tense up. But fortunately, things deescalated and as I say, mid-December, I arrived home just before Christmas.

[Assistant] And then how long did you go back?

[User] Into January basically that I had planned. We had been planning, my parents and I and my sister had been planning to go on and photograph a safari in Kenya. And then my parents were going to come back with me to Benin. But of course, they didn't do that but since Daddy, and since this was going to be in January of 1982 and since my father was doing better, my sister and I actually went off on a photo safari.

[Assistant] But this was after Peace Corps then or this was during the break?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were thinking about it. They were making preparations that basically. I believe this was at a time when, you know, volunteers had their own passports and everything. But there were some new volunteers that are new trainees who were just, you know, come in and their passports were with the Beninese government for their visa. So it was quite tense up. But fortunately, things deescalated and as I say, mid-December, I arrived home just before Christmas.

[Assistant] And then how long did you go back?

[User] Into January basically that I had planned. We had been planning, my parents and I and my sister had been planning to go on and photograph a safari in Kenya. And then my parents were going to come back with me to Benin. But of course, they didn't do that but since Daddy, and since this was going to be in January of 1982 and since my father was doing better, my sister and I actually went off on a photo safari.

[Assistant] But this was after Peace Corps then or this was during the break?

[User] Well, this was right during the break, basically during the break, basically. And that I went through rather than rather than flying from Cotonou to Kenya, I flew from Boston, because my parents were living outside of Boston, and to Kenya and then came back to Benin.

[Assistant] Did she come with you to Benin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Into January basically that I had planned. We had been planning, my parents and I and my sister had been planning to go on and photograph a safari in Kenya. And then my parents were going to come back with me to Benin. But of course, they didn't do that but since Daddy, and since this was going to be in January of 1982 and since my father was doing better, my sister and I actually went off on a photo safari.

[Assistant] But this was after Peace Corps then or this was during the break?

[User] Well, this was right during the break, basically during the break, basically. And that I went through rather than rather than flying from Cotonou to Kenya, I flew from Boston, because my parents were living outside of Boston, and to Kenya and then came back to Benin.

[Assistant] Did she come with you to Benin?

[User] Oh, no, no. Unfortunately, none of my family have been to have been there.

[Assistant] So that was a great vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this was right during the break, basically during the break, basically. And that I went through rather than rather than flying from Cotonou to Kenya, I flew from Boston, because my parents were living outside of Boston, and to Kenya and then came back to Benin.

[Assistant] Did she come with you to Benin?

[User] Oh, no, no. Unfortunately, none of my family have been to have been there.

[Assistant] So that was a great vacation?

[User] Yes, yes. It was a nice vacation. It was nice being home at Christmas time of the year. And then fortunately, as I say, my father got better. And so they decided that my sister and I would stay, you know. Oh, but it was something that. They thought when they sent me home that, as I say, in intensive care, in critical condition, that we think he was mugged and suffered severe hypothermia and he was in intensive care, but was conscious about the time I got home, but was in intensive care for about two months. You know. Peace Corps was wonderful, you know, that this was something that I appreciated, them doing that. In the fall I had been talking with the TEFL coordinator, Peace Corps TEFL coordinator, who was a Beninese gentleman about changing posts. And so happened when I came back, I went to my new post in Allada, which was much closer to Cotonou and about oh, 30, 40 miles, and, you know, that they needed an English teacher and I and so I went back to Allada and changed posts basically there.

[Assistant] Did you teach in high school as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training of trainers and so that was another reason why I decided that I wanted to stay. I had also become involved with the Beninese teacher at the time and so was interested in in staying. So in August, September, because I was extending for a third year, the Peace Corps sent me home for six weeks, basically in between. I came back to the States, saw this friend who was a volunteer in Jamaica. Saw the tremendous difference between Peace Corps posts.

[Assistant] And went to Jamaica?

[User] Yes. That I had a friend who was a Peace Corps volunteer rent a car and a nice house and everything and electricity. It was quite, it's quite a difference to Jamaica. Visited him then also went to and then was traveling around with my family in the States and went back to Benin in October.

[Assistant] So you said you made friends in the school?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the difference? Just the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That I had a friend who was a Peace Corps volunteer rent a car and a nice house and everything and electricity. It was quite, it's quite a difference to Jamaica. Visited him then also went to and then was traveling around with my family in the States and went back to Benin in October.

[Assistant] So you said you made friends in the school?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the difference? Just the people?

[User] People were friendly. A lot of people wanted to wanted to speak English. No, I wanted to practice my French and speak English. That was a Ghanaian teacher there. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you meet your boyfriend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the difference? Just the people?

[User] People were friendly. A lot of people wanted to wanted to speak English. No, I wanted to practice my French and speak English. That was a Ghanaian teacher there. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you meet your boyfriend?

[User] He was a teacher.

[Assistant] Oh, he was a teacher there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People were friendly. A lot of people wanted to wanted to speak English. No, I wanted to practice my French and speak English. That was a Ghanaian teacher there. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you meet your boyfriend?

[User] He was a teacher.

[Assistant] Oh, he was a teacher there.

[User] Yes, he was a fellow teacher.

[Assistant] So that was good that you stayed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a teacher.

[Assistant] Oh, he was a teacher there.

[User] Yes, he was a fellow teacher.

[Assistant] So that was good that you stayed.

[User] Yeah, yes, yes. This was something that he was another was he an English teacher.

[Assistant] Was it culturally different in the north, in the south or was it because it was a big city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was a fellow teacher.

[Assistant] So that was good that you stayed.

[User] Yeah, yes, yes. This was something that he was another was he an English teacher.

[Assistant] Was it culturally different in the north, in the south or was it because it was a big city?

[User] Just to think it's probably the small-town nature. I was the only yovo, the white, yovo was their word for white stranger. I was the only yovo woman there and the other volunteer, Tom, was a physics teacher as a matter of fact. He's a doctor now. So a different kind of atmosphere, though. It was also one of the interesting things I know of. This was where I had seen for the first time of the, oh, corporal punishment at the school, you know, of beating students, um, which came as quite a quite a shock. I never seen anything like that in the United States. Of course, I had never been to a Third World country before. I had traveled in Europe when I was, you know, growing up. But I mean, it was my first world kind of experience and so was not used to seeing that. Also, of course, my fancy shortwave radio was stolen at one point and I had gone to report it to the police and saw things in the jail. Certainly don't want to, would not want to see again.

[Assistant] So this was all basically all a shock to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yes, yes. This was something that he was another was he an English teacher.

[Assistant] Was it culturally different in the north, in the south or was it because it was a big city?

[User] Just to think it's probably the small-town nature. I was the only yovo, the white, yovo was their word for white stranger. I was the only yovo woman there and the other volunteer, Tom, was a physics teacher as a matter of fact. He's a doctor now. So a different kind of atmosphere, though. It was also one of the interesting things I know of. This was where I had seen for the first time of the, oh, corporal punishment at the school, you know, of beating students, um, which came as quite a quite a shock. I never seen anything like that in the United States. Of course, I had never been to a Third World country before. I had traveled in Europe when I was, you know, growing up. But I mean, it was my first world kind of experience and so was not used to seeing that. Also, of course, my fancy shortwave radio was stolen at one point and I had gone to report it to the police and saw things in the jail. Certainly don't want to, would not want to see again.

[Assistant] So this was all basically all a shock to you?

[User] Yes, quite a shock.

[Assistant] Could you talk to anybody about that while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just to think it's probably the small-town nature. I was the only yovo, the white, yovo was their word for white stranger. I was the only yovo woman there and the other volunteer, Tom, was a physics teacher as a matter of fact. He's a doctor now. So a different kind of atmosphere, though. It was also one of the interesting things I know of. This was where I had seen for the first time of the, oh, corporal punishment at the school, you know, of beating students, um, which came as quite a quite a shock. I never seen anything like that in the United States. Of course, I had never been to a Third World country before. I had traveled in Europe when I was, you know, growing up. But I mean, it was my first world kind of experience and so was not used to seeing that. Also, of course, my fancy shortwave radio was stolen at one point and I had gone to report it to the police and saw things in the jail. Certainly don't want to, would not want to see again.

[Assistant] So this was all basically all a shock to you?

[User] Yes, quite a shock.

[Assistant] Could you talk to anybody about that while you were there?

[User] No, well, other volunteers, basically, that was something, but no, there really wasn't the support. They had done the peer to peer counseling and training, and there were volunteers who had been trained. And I remember speaking to at least one of them, you know, about what I had seen. But it was something that happened that now.

[Assistant] So, so what was this peer to peer training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was part of the Peace Corps staff, basically, that it was that country desk unit that I had been interacting with and everything. And it was very exciting. To be involved in that. It's something that I'll always remember. And, uh, because I also worked during the furlough time, there were about 20 people on the Peace Corps staff who were considered to be essential during the furlough. I'm not sure when exactly that was. And this was with President Clinton and Newt Gingrich precipitated this. And it was just a terrible time that they were making plans to shut the program and bring all the volunteers home. It was awful. They needed, there were two of us who were in the personnel office, who were needed for furlough letters and things like that.

[Assistant] And so all the volunteers were threatened by that?

[User] Yes. Yes. As it went on, they were starting to make plans, you know, to bring all of the volunteers home. It was terrible.

[Assistant] But it never happened?

[User] No, in the end, they worked something out. And so it was but it was a very bad time. I was working, not being paid, you know, the quite a job. And then also at that time, one of the problems with Peace Corps with these time limited deployments is that you had people who would come and work and perhaps be promoted and get pay increases because we're on the foreign service pay scale. But it was a lot of turnover in the personnel office and so in 1995 and into 1996, for a significant period of time, I was the acting personnel deputy director of the office and then acting personnel office or the director of HRM for a period of about nine months when they were in between, um, you know, permanent well, “permanent,” you know, hired staff basically. And so interacted with the Peace Corps director, Mark Gearan, at the time.

[Assistant] So how long were you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. As it went on, they were starting to make plans, you know, to bring all of the volunteers home. It was terrible.

[Assistant] But it never happened?

[User] No, in the end, they worked something out. And so it was but it was a very bad time. I was working, not being paid, you know, the quite a job. And then also at that time, one of the problems with Peace Corps with these time limited deployments is that you had people who would come and work and perhaps be promoted and get pay increases because we're on the foreign service pay scale. But it was a lot of turnover in the personnel office and so in 1995 and into 1996, for a significant period of time, I was the acting personnel deputy director of the office and then acting personnel office or the director of HRM for a period of about nine months when they were in between, um, you know, permanent well, “permanent,” you know, hired staff basically. And so interacted with the Peace Corps director, Mark Gearan, at the time.

[Assistant] So how long were you there?

[User] I was there almost seven years until I was also extended by the, to go beyond five years, you have to be extended by the Peace Corps director. And so that happened a couple of times. And they were very pleased with the work I was doing and everything and wanted the continuity. And so that was really good.

[Assistant] You’ve had two lives. One is a volunteer and one of the staff. Do you think differently about Peace Corps having been both?