[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn’t involved in those. I think my plate’s full.

[Assistant]
Thank you.

How important do you think NASA’s partnership with SpaceX impacted your progress in developing your technology?

[User] I think it was critically important. They’ve been a partner with us for a long time, and I think we were able to draw on their expertise. Certainly, having the contract with known financial milestones helped us with the time we needed to develop our technology. Generally, just their support throughout the program has, I think, helped make SpaceX successful. Also, probably a more robust vehicle in the end by having to meet ISS integration requirements and other things along the way. I think we probably ended up with a better vehicle because of it.

[Assistant] I understand that there was never a question that although you didn’t have to, your vehicle was going to the Station [to demonstrate its cargo capabilities]. When you were doing all of the work for it, you were making sure that it met all those requirements to be able to berth at the Station.

[User] Yes, absolutely. I think that really came handed down from our CEO [Chief Executive Officer], Elon Musk, who’s always said, “We’re doing manned spaceflight, we’re going to Station, we’re going to Mars, we’re going to carry crew, so do it right from the beginning.” I think that was a good choice.

[Assistant] Provides that vision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was critically important. They’ve been a partner with us for a long time, and I think we were able to draw on their expertise. Certainly, having the contract with known financial milestones helped us with the time we needed to develop our technology. Generally, just their support throughout the program has, I think, helped make SpaceX successful. Also, probably a more robust vehicle in the end by having to meet ISS integration requirements and other things along the way. I think we probably ended up with a better vehicle because of it.

[Assistant] I understand that there was never a question that although you didn’t have to, your vehicle was going to the Station [to demonstrate its cargo capabilities]. When you were doing all of the work for it, you were making sure that it met all those requirements to be able to berth at the Station.

[User] Yes, absolutely. I think that really came handed down from our CEO [Chief Executive Officer], Elon Musk, who’s always said, “We’re doing manned spaceflight, we’re going to Station, we’re going to Mars, we’re going to carry crew, so do it right from the beginning.” I think that was a good choice.

[Assistant] Provides that vision?

[User] It does, and it forced us to work out problems and create solutions earlier than maybe we would’ve otherwise.

[Assistant] Tell us where you were when Dragon and the Station came together [successful C2+ mission].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely. I think that really came handed down from our CEO [Chief Executive Officer], Elon Musk, who’s always said, “We’re doing manned spaceflight, we’re going to Station, we’re going to Mars, we’re going to carry crew, so do it right from the beginning.” I think that was a good choice.

[Assistant] Provides that vision?

[User] It does, and it forced us to work out problems and create solutions earlier than maybe we would’ve otherwise.

[Assistant] Tell us where you were when Dragon and the Station came together [successful C2+ mission].

[User] I was in our Mission Control. At that point I didn’t have a role anymore. It was well under the control of the Mission Operations team, but I was there watching. The moment that Dragon was grappled by the Station, that was quite emotional. That was four years of long hours and stress and wondering if we were going to get there.\n\n With the C1 launch, we had shown we could bring a capsule back to Earth, so that was piece number one. Now, at that very moment of the grapple, we showed that we could build a vehicle capable of navigating and being berthed to the Station. That was the second and final piece. Now we’re a full-fledged space company, and we can only be successful from here I think. That was a great day. That was my best day at SpaceX, for sure.

[Assistant] I bet it was. What was the biggest challenge that you encountered during those years, those four long years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It does, and it forced us to work out problems and create solutions earlier than maybe we would’ve otherwise.

[Assistant] Tell us where you were when Dragon and the Station came together [successful C2+ mission].

[User] I was in our Mission Control. At that point I didn’t have a role anymore. It was well under the control of the Mission Operations team, but I was there watching. The moment that Dragon was grappled by the Station, that was quite emotional. That was four years of long hours and stress and wondering if we were going to get there.\n\n With the C1 launch, we had shown we could bring a capsule back to Earth, so that was piece number one. Now, at that very moment of the grapple, we showed that we could build a vehicle capable of navigating and being berthed to the Station. That was the second and final piece. Now we’re a full-fledged space company, and we can only be successful from here I think. That was a great day. That was my best day at SpaceX, for sure.

[Assistant] I bet it was. What was the biggest challenge that you encountered during those years, those four long years?

[User] We had challenges all over the place developing new technology, but more than anything it was trying to keep a schedule. I think we did something unprecedented with the number of people we had and the timeframe we did it. It was a team effort across the board with a lot of smart people, good team players working really really hard, and all in it together. I think that was a challenge, just the pace at which we did it and solved problems along the way.

[Assistant] So much was going on at such an intense pace—how was communication shared with your team, and with your NASA partner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had challenges all over the place developing new technology, but more than anything it was trying to keep a schedule. I think we did something unprecedented with the number of people we had and the timeframe we did it. It was a team effort across the board with a lot of smart people, good team players working really really hard, and all in it together. I think that was a challenge, just the pace at which we did it and solved problems along the way.

[Assistant] So much was going on at such an intense pace—how was communication shared with your team, and with your NASA partner?

[User] I think communication was a challenge, to keep it up to date as quickly as possible. We tried to send over information as fast as we got it, whether it was an email, a phone call, a test report, test results. It was, “Let’s keep them informed as much as possible, as quickly as possible,” so that everyone was on the same page. There was no one way, and there was no easy way. It was just talking to them a lot.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, because you mentioned that so much was based on electronic documentation. So it was also almost like an electronic network that was constantly moving between you and your partners and your teammates.

[User] Oh yes, very much.

[Assistant] Before we close, is there anything else that you can think of that you’d like to share with us about your experiences working with this? Or for where you’re going next, based on what you’ve learned through these experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think communication was a challenge, to keep it up to date as quickly as possible. We tried to send over information as fast as we got it, whether it was an email, a phone call, a test report, test results. It was, “Let’s keep them informed as much as possible, as quickly as possible,” so that everyone was on the same page. There was no one way, and there was no easy way. It was just talking to them a lot.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, because you mentioned that so much was based on electronic documentation. So it was also almost like an electronic network that was constantly moving between you and your partners and your teammates.

[User] Oh yes, very much.

[Assistant] Before we close, is there anything else that you can think of that you’d like to share with us about your experiences working with this? Or for where you’re going next, based on what you’ve learned through these experiences?

[User] No, it’s been just an amazing experience. I’ve really been honored to be a part of it, to be able to see the second half of COTS all the way through to the end, and be managing the CRS contracts from the very beginning. I’d say when Dragon was grappled to Station, that was my best day at SpaceX.\n\n My proudest accomplishment was the first CRS mission, because that was, for me, the one I saw from the very beginning and worked with the ISS office. We really brought cargo to the crew, ice cream included. That was a good mission, and I think we’re well poised for the next 11 under that contract. I’m not involved in the crew work, at least not yet, but that’ll be really exciting. I think the sky’s the limit, literally for SpaceX and the partnership with NASA.

[Assistant] Did you have dealings with the [ISS] International Partners too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, very much.

[Assistant] Before we close, is there anything else that you can think of that you’d like to share with us about your experiences working with this? Or for where you’re going next, based on what you’ve learned through these experiences?

[User] No, it’s been just an amazing experience. I’ve really been honored to be a part of it, to be able to see the second half of COTS all the way through to the end, and be managing the CRS contracts from the very beginning. I’d say when Dragon was grappled to Station, that was my best day at SpaceX.\n\n My proudest accomplishment was the first CRS mission, because that was, for me, the one I saw from the very beginning and worked with the ISS office. We really brought cargo to the crew, ice cream included. That was a good mission, and I think we’re well poised for the next 11 under that contract. I’m not involved in the crew work, at least not yet, but that’ll be really exciting. I think the sky’s the limit, literally for SpaceX and the partnership with NASA.

[Assistant] Did you have dealings with the [ISS] International Partners too?

[User] I worked with them primarily through either the Safety Review Panels or the IMMT, the ISS Mission Management Team. Those are formal meetings that were held just before the mission and during the mission. When we did have some anomalies during the mission we would get questions from the partners, and we addressed them and had good answers. It was never an issue. I think they have seemed very supportive along the way. Our interface with them was more limited. NASA really handled that interface primarily, except during real-time operations.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have any more?

You talked about SpaceX being well poised at this point as a result of the partnership with NASA. Do you have any involvement working with other commercial opportunities that have become available as a result of the partnership? New customers that you work with, or business you’ve been able to gain?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thanks, Rebecca.

[Assistant] This was your third flight. Your previous flight had landed in November of 1989, and within two years you set to command yet another crew.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you expect to return to space so soon? Tell me how this all happened and how your command took effect with your crew.

[User] There were very few commanders, and just by rotation you could determine about when you would fly again. So I was pleased and, of course, very happy to be selected again and have the privilege of flying, flying Space Shuttle Atlantis, in this particular case. It seemed like a very good program, the Defense Support Program, or the DSP. It was a very large satellite, and so I thought it was going to be exciting as I watched it loaded into the payload bay, and then I realized how important the satellite was. So it looked like a great mission. I was flying one more of the Shuttles and I had a great crew. So I was pretty excited about it.

[Assistant] Well, let’s talk about the Shuttles for a moment. This is the third mission, and the third different Orbiter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you expect to return to space so soon? Tell me how this all happened and how your command took effect with your crew.

[User] There were very few commanders, and just by rotation you could determine about when you would fly again. So I was pleased and, of course, very happy to be selected again and have the privilege of flying, flying Space Shuttle Atlantis, in this particular case. It seemed like a very good program, the Defense Support Program, or the DSP. It was a very large satellite, and so I thought it was going to be exciting as I watched it loaded into the payload bay, and then I realized how important the satellite was. So it looked like a great mission. I was flying one more of the Shuttles and I had a great crew. So I was pretty excited about it.

[Assistant] Well, let’s talk about the Shuttles for a moment. This is the third mission, and the third different Orbiter.

[User] Yes, it would have been the third Shuttle. I flew the Space Shuttle Challenger first and then Space Shuttle Discovery and then Atlantis. Each of these ladies had slightly different personalities. You could get inside and hear things on one that you wouldn’t hear on the other. But Discovery and Atlantis were very close to each other. Challenger was a little earlier, and so it had some slightly different characteristics.\n\n But at this time I was beginning to think about how I would close out my career. At that time I was thinking that if I flew each of the five Shuttles, that would be a reason to stop flying. So this one just kind of fit right into the scheme, so I was pretty excited about it.

[Assistant] When you’re training and you know you’re going to be on a different Orbiter, do they train you any differently, or is everything just the same?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were very few commanders, and just by rotation you could determine about when you would fly again. So I was pleased and, of course, very happy to be selected again and have the privilege of flying, flying Space Shuttle Atlantis, in this particular case. It seemed like a very good program, the Defense Support Program, or the DSP. It was a very large satellite, and so I thought it was going to be exciting as I watched it loaded into the payload bay, and then I realized how important the satellite was. So it looked like a great mission. I was flying one more of the Shuttles and I had a great crew. So I was pretty excited about it.

[Assistant] Well, let’s talk about the Shuttles for a moment. This is the third mission, and the third different Orbiter.

[User] Yes, it would have been the third Shuttle. I flew the Space Shuttle Challenger first and then Space Shuttle Discovery and then Atlantis. Each of these ladies had slightly different personalities. You could get inside and hear things on one that you wouldn’t hear on the other. But Discovery and Atlantis were very close to each other. Challenger was a little earlier, and so it had some slightly different characteristics.\n\n But at this time I was beginning to think about how I would close out my career. At that time I was thinking that if I flew each of the five Shuttles, that would be a reason to stop flying. So this one just kind of fit right into the scheme, so I was pretty excited about it.

[Assistant] When you’re training and you know you’re going to be on a different Orbiter, do they train you any differently, or is everything just the same?

[User] The training is the same. There may be a few oddities between, or some very few differences, between them, but as far as training is concerned, it would have been invisible for us to determine which one we were actually on.

[Assistant] This crew had many rookies, except you and Story Musgrave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s just that it shows you how the safety program works. They did not want to endanger the crew or the Shuttle, and they certainly did not want to—if it were a satellite of sorts, they wouldn’t want to interfere with what that satellite was performing. Obviously, if it was a rocket body part of some sort, it was in a degrading orbit, and it would come home, and it would be terrible if it had ruined our day. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Yes. You’d already mentioned that this is your second DoD [Department of Defense] mission. I know you can’t say all the details, but were there a lot of similarities in this mission compared to the other ones that you did?

[User] Well, the one in ’89 on STS-33 was a highly classified mission, and so the difference was we had a very small group of folks that we worked and trained with. It was a very closed community. The DSP (Defense Support Program) satellite on STS-44, was an unclassified mission, and so it was readily available to the press and the media, very different from STS-33 where there were a lot of secret activities always going on. So they may have been—and I won’t say there was [laughs]—but they may have been similar or dissimilar, but it was just kind of a different environment that we were in, one secret and one nonsecret.

[Assistant] But still, of course, DoD missions. The length of the flight was shortened some when one of the three Orbiter inertial measurement units failed on orbit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What impact did that have on your flight and your crew, with all those rookies? What was their reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the one in ’89 on STS-33 was a highly classified mission, and so the difference was we had a very small group of folks that we worked and trained with. It was a very closed community. The DSP (Defense Support Program) satellite on STS-44, was an unclassified mission, and so it was readily available to the press and the media, very different from STS-33 where there were a lot of secret activities always going on. So they may have been—and I won’t say there was [laughs]—but they may have been similar or dissimilar, but it was just kind of a different environment that we were in, one secret and one nonsecret.

[Assistant] But still, of course, DoD missions. The length of the flight was shortened some when one of the three Orbiter inertial measurement units failed on orbit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What impact did that have on your flight and your crew, with all those rookies? What was their reaction?

[User] We had completed our primary mission, which was to deploy. We had done a lot of the other scientific and medical investigations. We had some follow-up to do, but once that IMU, inertial measurement unit, was discovered bad, the ground worked a sequence of events so that when we finally deorbited, we had completed, if not 100 percent, pretty close to 100 percent of all of the desired outcomes. So I think we went from ten days to seven days, but we accomplished everything that had been planned.

[Assistant] When you landed at Edwards Air Force Base, California, in December of 1991, did you have any idea that would be your last flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughs] Almost immediately. It was probably in May of ’92. It was one of those things that just fell in place. How, why—it was a mystery. I don’t know why it was. [Laughs] I was up giving a talk at the Department of Energy one evening. It was a Saturday evening. I was staying with my mom, and when I got back home, I had a call from Mr. George W. S. Abbey, and he said he’d like me to come in and meet the next morning at NASA Headquarters, and that the new Administrator, Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, wanted to speak to me.\n\n I said, “Sure, I’ll do that. It does not seem to interfere with the plane that I’m taking back to Houston.” [Laughs] And on Sunday morning I went down to NASA Headquarters to meet Dan Goldin. When he walked in and looked at me, he said, “I’m going to make you an offer you won’t turn down.” That’s when he offered me the chance to move to Washington and run the safety program for the Agency.

[Assistant] You entered that job about the same time that he was instituting his faster, better, cheaper era.

[User] Initially it was “Carpe Diem—seize the day.” A little later faster, better, cheaper came about.

[Assistant] So at least let you get into the office for a little while before.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Dan Goldin, you said came in with the conversation topic that he was going to offer you something that you wouldn’t refuse. So what did he offer you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Initially it was “Carpe Diem—seize the day.” A little later faster, better, cheaper came about.

[Assistant] So at least let you get into the office for a little while before.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Dan Goldin, you said came in with the conversation topic that he was going to offer you something that you wouldn’t refuse. So what did he offer you?

[User] Well, he offered me the opportunity to become the Associate Administrator for Safety and Mission Assurance.

[Assistant] What was his expectations of that role?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Dan Goldin, you said came in with the conversation topic that he was going to offer you something that you wouldn’t refuse. So what did he offer you?

[User] Well, he offered me the opportunity to become the Associate Administrator for Safety and Mission Assurance.

[Assistant] What was his expectations of that role?

[User] He wanted a culture that considered safety mandatory in order to achieve mission success. He was still working from the Rogers Commission, and he wanted not to fall back into the kind of complacency that we had, where we sometimes made choices without doing the risk assessments, and sometimes we did things that were inherently—well, I use the analogy if our decision was flawed, would it be on the front page of the Washington Post [Newspaper]. So you’d do the Washington Post test on it. So what he wanted was a program that was safe and that we could be assured that it would be successful.\n\n So I took the title of the organization, which had been “Safety, Reliability, Maintainability,” and things like that, and changed it to Safety and Mission Assurance. I was going to make it Safety and Mission Success, but I believed that the mission success part belonged to the Program Manager, and that we could promise the Program Manager or Project Manager, or the Administrator, that we had done everything possible to assure that it was safe, and that there was a doggone good chance that it would have been successful.\n\n We were pretty good at it. We went from ’92 until Space Shuttle Columbia [STS-107 accident] without a major incident of any type, and we had a string of successes for that nine years or so.

[Assistant] In ’93 you had the first Hubble Space Telescope mission, which was at the time the most complex, having five back-to-back EVAs [Extravehicular Activities] with the teams.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, to change the perception that they had of themselves. So that was just another thing.\n\n Since I was one who believed that the program was the one responsible for all of its down to the locations where the decisions were being made. It was met with some degree of skepticism. Sometimes I had chosen a uniquely qualified person to perform a significant role for a specific reason and that person also had other jobs and responsibilities. It didn’t bother me that this person actually had two roles, but it did bother others.

[Assistant] That was one of the questions I was going to ask you, because sometimes it’s perceived that Headquarters is telling the Centers what to do, but yet safety encompasses all of the pieces together, and how are you able to build that connection with the Centers and the Headquarters, where there was a respect.

[User] You try your best. There is a community. Different folks have different priorities, but I always held the trump card. I could always say, “I’m sorry. We’re stopping this.” Willingly or unwillingly, we’d get things done. Whether there respect and acceptance from others or not, all I was after was to protect the crew and have a successful mission and stay off of the front page of the Washington Post. We avoided that, also.

[Assistant] How did your direction and expectations from your office affect the contractors that were responsible for the safety?

[User] What we did was establish a set of expectations, that if you, as a contractor, intended to do work with NASA, that you would have to comply with. This is the process that we have in NASA. You will, you must, conform to that. If you don’t conform to that, then it will be reflected in one way or another. So what we did, I think, was create harmony between the public sector and the private sector. You could see that they would change their method of operation to reflect what we had done in NASA. So whether they believed in it or not they would mimic what we did.

[Assistant] I’m sure, as you mentioned, some might not have been so receptive of some of the areas that you wanted to have attention to. Did they pressure your boss to pressure you to not be so—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What we did was establish a set of expectations, that if you, as a contractor, intended to do work with NASA, that you would have to comply with. This is the process that we have in NASA. You will, you must, conform to that. If you don’t conform to that, then it will be reflected in one way or another. So what we did, I think, was create harmony between the public sector and the private sector. You could see that they would change their method of operation to reflect what we had done in NASA. So whether they believed in it or not they would mimic what we did.

[Assistant] I’m sure, as you mentioned, some might not have been so receptive of some of the areas that you wanted to have attention to. Did they pressure your boss to pressure you to not be so—

[User] Dan Goldin and I spent a lot of time talking about a subject, and the subject was who should own the safety community. Dan wanted me to own all of those folks who worked in the safety world, and I argued that’s not right, because the safety and success belongs to the Program Manager. The Program Manager should be responsible for doing whatever he or she needs to do to achieve success and safety, mission safety. My role was to assure that there were standardized guidelines, requirements, processes and oversight that assured that safety was paramount is all that we did. Dan and I had that discussion, perhaps, two or three times during his tenure. Again, he accepted my recommendation—whether he agreed me or not and I am most appreciative of that.

[Assistant] During your tenure, NASA entered into a partnership with the Russians to do the long-duration flights on Mir [Space Station].

[User] On Mir, yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about your experiences working with those and any safety concerns you had, especially after the Progress [re-supply vehicle] hit the Spektr [module].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a lot of concern about terrorists, and so there was a lot of thought put into how you protect the Shuttle. Folks were considering how to protect the Space Shuttle from small arms fire from offshore and from above. We immediately increased security; SWAT [Special Weapons and Tactics] teams came down. We acquired radar from an Air Force, radar units that could look close to the horizon; could look for small aircraft. So there was a lot of uneasiness, but it was uneasiness because the threat was an unknown. No one had ever violated this country before, so no one was able to scope out what the threat was or what the credibility of it was and how to react and how do you prepare for it. But, we recovered from that and then continued launching, but with significantly increased security in everything that you did.

[Assistant] Did that come out of your office, those changes?

[User] No, no. That would have been out of the security group. It would have been out of the Administrator and the security groups, and then implemented by the Centers and the programs.

[Assistant] What do you consider the most important events during your time and your tenure as your first administration job, and I guess you had mentioned some, but if you can think about your most significant contribution to that office, that you felt really left a lasting impression and change that would help the Agency in its goals.

[User] In that office, I mentioned three of them, the things that I put in place that I felt at this point were significant. Probably the most significant events would have been, from my point of view, the continuation of our stay on the Mir; the successful recovery of the Hubble; and the success that we had with our launches and the success of each of the missions. I would put that number one, that NASA was perceived as an Agency that could do extremely difficult things, make it easy, and be successful doing it.

[Assistant] Were you able to go down for the launches?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. That would have been out of the security group. It would have been out of the Administrator and the security groups, and then implemented by the Centers and the programs.

[Assistant] What do you consider the most important events during your time and your tenure as your first administration job, and I guess you had mentioned some, but if you can think about your most significant contribution to that office, that you felt really left a lasting impression and change that would help the Agency in its goals.

[User] In that office, I mentioned three of them, the things that I put in place that I felt at this point were significant. Probably the most significant events would have been, from my point of view, the continuation of our stay on the Mir; the successful recovery of the Hubble; and the success that we had with our launches and the success of each of the missions. I would put that number one, that NASA was perceived as an Agency that could do extremely difficult things, make it easy, and be successful doing it.

[Assistant] Were you able to go down for the launches?

[User] Yes, I went to every launch. I’ve participated, gosh, in seventy, seventy-five, or eighty launches. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Looking from the outside in, this time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, for, rendezvous and dockings and landings. I was generally always in Baikonur, in Kazakhstan, for the launches. Then I’d come back to TsUP for docking, and then for undocking and landing, and then I’d go out to Star City [Russia] to welcome the crew when they came back five hours later.

[Assistant] I imagined the landing was something to see, since it’s—

[User] I never went to it.

[Assistant] I mean, just—

[User] Yes. They always had simulation. They didn’t have a live feed for the landing. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I would imagine you were glad you came down in the Shuttle. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never went to it.

[Assistant] I mean, just—

[User] Yes. They always had simulation. They didn’t have a live feed for the landing. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I would imagine you were glad you came down in the Shuttle. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, it was somewhat more civilized.

[Assistant] And it works. It works. We were talking a little while ago about decision making and leadership, and with the last couple of years, there’s some major decisions affecting NASA, one being the fact that the Shuttle will be retiring, that there was not going to be a reservicing mission going back to the Hubble. Then, of course, the new division to go to the Moon and then beyond to Mars. How were you involved with those decisions, and when did you learn that these plans were being discussed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They always had simulation. They didn’t have a live feed for the landing. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I would imagine you were glad you came down in the Shuttle. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, it was somewhat more civilized.

[Assistant] And it works. It works. We were talking a little while ago about decision making and leadership, and with the last couple of years, there’s some major decisions affecting NASA, one being the fact that the Shuttle will be retiring, that there was not going to be a reservicing mission going back to the Hubble. Then, of course, the new division to go to the Moon and then beyond to Mars. How were you involved with those decisions, and when did you learn that these plans were being discussed?

[User] I was in the beginning of the Vision, and so I was kind of ahead of it and had been working along with it. That was my interest. I had nothing to do with the decision not to go back to the Hubble. I was told about that, informed about that. But that was based on an interpretation of the [Admiral Hal] Gehman Report [Chairman of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board], and again, leaders there that make a decision based on the information that he or she has. Sean made a decision based on his interpretation of what the Gehman Report said. It was concluded that a human trip back to the Hubble, where there was no safe haven, was an inappropriate thing to do. So you can challenge the answer, but you can’t challenge the right of a leader to make a decision. Then once it has been made, then you should support it.

[Assistant] We were talking about the decision for Hubble. I also was going to ask you what you thought, since you spent some time in three of the Orbiters, what did you think about the Shuttle being retired in 2010? Your thoughts about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s on two levels. My practical level says that it is proper to do that, because as long as you hang on to something like the Shuttle, you will never be able to do other things. The other side of me says it would be so great if we could have the Shuttle and do those other things, also. [Laughs]\n\n So what I conclude is that in order to do—the transition should be financed such that the Shuttle is available to support the Station until the CEV and a cargo capability is provided to support the Station, if we’re going to do that, and/or have the capability of carrying humans in space. I am not in support of gaps between the ability of America to put humans in space. So it’s a right decision. We have to pull it down. It ought to incentivize or establish an urgency for whatever the next vehicle is, and if not, I would keep the Shuttle running until we had that capability, but it would require a significant increase in the budget, probably on the order of five to six billion dollars per year to do that. I’ll bet what I just said is confusing, but I know what I meant!

[Assistant] That’s a big increase, with all that’s going on right now.

[User] It is. It really is. But then we’ve got to decide what’s important. Yes. There’s so many other competing activities out there for that dollar, we’ve got to decide what’s important. So if you have that pull, then NASA is important.

[Assistant] Using the word competing, some feel that China might be our next competitor in the space race.

[User] Well, bless their heart. If they say they’re going to put a robotic something on the Moon in such and such, and they’re going to put a human on the Moon in such and such, that may establish the sense of urgency, because trying to justify spaceflight without a challenger out there has been extremely difficult.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any dealings or information with the Chinese at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. It really is. But then we’ve got to decide what’s important. Yes. There’s so many other competing activities out there for that dollar, we’ve got to decide what’s important. So if you have that pull, then NASA is important.

[Assistant] Using the word competing, some feel that China might be our next competitor in the space race.

[User] Well, bless their heart. If they say they’re going to put a robotic something on the Moon in such and such, and they’re going to put a human on the Moon in such and such, that may establish the sense of urgency, because trying to justify spaceflight without a challenger out there has been extremely difficult.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any dealings or information with the Chinese at all?

[User] With the Chinese? No. No, I really haven’t. No.

[Assistant] Just curious, since moving into that area.\n\n In February 2005 Sean O’Keefe left the Administrator post, and you became Acting Administrator. Then in April Michael Griffin was named. Tell us about that brief time as NASA’s top leader.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, bless their heart. If they say they’re going to put a robotic something on the Moon in such and such, and they’re going to put a human on the Moon in such and such, that may establish the sense of urgency, because trying to justify spaceflight without a challenger out there has been extremely difficult.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any dealings or information with the Chinese at all?

[User] With the Chinese? No. No, I really haven’t. No.

[Assistant] Just curious, since moving into that area.\n\n In February 2005 Sean O’Keefe left the Administrator post, and you became Acting Administrator. Then in April Michael Griffin was named. Tell us about that brief time as NASA’s top leader.

[User] [Laughs] I had tried to work the White House. I went over to OSTP [Office of Science and Technology Policy]—and talked to Jack [John H.] Marburger [III] to try to find out what I would be allowed to do. I was told that we should wait until the new Administrator comes in.\n\n So there are things that I would have done. I would have quickly reversed the decision on the Hubble, and there were some other things I would have done. I would have opened it up for discussion, but I’m absolutely certain that I could have quickly reversed the earlier decision.

[Assistant] Think you could have found seven astronauts to go on that trip?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With the Chinese? No. No, I really haven’t. No.

[Assistant] Just curious, since moving into that area.\n\n In February 2005 Sean O’Keefe left the Administrator post, and you became Acting Administrator. Then in April Michael Griffin was named. Tell us about that brief time as NASA’s top leader.

[User] [Laughs] I had tried to work the White House. I went over to OSTP [Office of Science and Technology Policy]—and talked to Jack [John H.] Marburger [III] to try to find out what I would be allowed to do. I was told that we should wait until the new Administrator comes in.\n\n So there are things that I would have done. I would have quickly reversed the decision on the Hubble, and there were some other things I would have done. I would have opened it up for discussion, but I’m absolutely certain that I could have quickly reversed the earlier decision.

[Assistant] Think you could have found seven astronauts to go on that trip?

[User] Absolutely!

[Assistant] More than seven?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely!

[Assistant] More than seven?

[User] Oh yes, I could have found them. But that’s, again, one of these questions—okay, the Hubble is kind of like the Station. Hubble has been around for a very long time. It produces interesting information through its imagery. The James Webb Space Telescope is coming along, and they say, “Well, the Hubble has got to be there because the next great telescope will be the James Webb.” Different spectrum. One’s visual, and the other one isn’t.\n\n That argument that it has to be there as long as—until—is an argument that I wouldn’t find palatable. If there is anything that the Agency is doing that creates excitement, I would keep it. But you would keep it while you were doing alternative things, other things.\n\n So if it was possible to keep the Hubble up there, even though it costs a certain amount of money, until we got something that was as exciting or more exciting than that, I thought it was important that we do everything we can. I thought that if you created a Hubble mission, you’ve already established that it’s dangerous to do it; it’s scary; there’s no safe haven. There’s none of those kind of things like that, but NASA is going to do it. From my point of view, that’s the kind of publicity that we need. You’ll get the science community, “Yes! Man, I know. We taught them. They’ve finally realized how important it was.” Because you need that community. It’s a small community, but you need them. And you need the people out there to believe this is a dangerous mission, and they’re really risking an awful lot by doing it, but they’re going to go do it. To me, that’s the kind of plus stuff that we need.

[Assistant] One of the questions we just got through talking about was, of course, Michael Griffin was named NASA’s newest Administrator, and had you any expectations, or did you have a desire to be moved into the Administrator position?

[User] Absolutely not. No. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s pretty definite. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely not. No. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s pretty definite. [Laughter]

[User] No, no, no. This was kind of like flying the Shuttle. I had done about everything I wanted to do, and it was time to move on and do something else. So I let them know that. I let them know that fact.

[Assistant] And actually, it was a few months later you announced your decision to retire.

[User] Yes. When Mike first came on, and I’d known Mike for, oh, fifteen years, twenty years, a long time, when Mike came in, he told me that there would be a new Deputy; that they did not know when that new Deputy would be selected, and there was a hope that I would stay until that new Deputy came. So that was in April. I think by the middle of the summer, since there was no one on the horizon, I began to initiate my retirement, or my resignation as the Deputy Administrator. So I began to create a letter that would go to the President, and I was told, “Hold off on it.”\n\n Then finally in August, I submitted a copy of it, and they came back, and they said, “Okay, you can use this, except you have to add the statement you will remain until the new Deputy Director is confirmed.” So I modified that statement a little bit and said, “If appropriate, I will do that.” I put a date, I believe, sometime in early October as that date when I would resign. The third of October came and went, and we ended up kind of in the middle of October. So I figured, well, I think it’s time, so I kind of packed up my office. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Kind of gave them a hint, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dried, mummified, alligator head and gave that to him as a gift. He seemed a little shocked when he opened the package. [Laughter] I think that was a real positive thing for the relationship, too, was doing that kind of thing. I don't think I've done much of that, but it helps.

[Assistant] You also, on the maintenance side, dealt with Mr. Tsygankov. We've interviewed him, and he seemed like a very interesting man to talk to. In fact, he had a common interest with you. I think he invented one of the space welding devices.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I was wondering how your conversations and your relationship built with Mr. Tsygankov.

[User] Well, he's quite a character, and he has a very distinctive personality. Initially, I was a little nervous about trying to establish a relationship with him. It seemed like he might be difficult to warm up to, or to get to warm up to me. But again, through the process of just repeated meetings, and listening as well as talking, I think we established a pretty good relationship.\n\n I think you were with me at the TIM when--this is not necessarily the most flattering incident, I guess, but I think it was in some sense important to the relationship, was we had spent like an hour one afternoon negotiating a paragraph, the wording of a paragraph on protocol. We really hashed through it, spent a lot of time on this one paragraph, and we all agreed that that's how it was going to be. When we walked in the next morning, he pulled out the protocol and he wanted to readdress that paragraph again. I got pretty adamant that we had already done that, and I wasn't going to spend any more time working that paragraph. End of story. He just said, "Okay."

[Assistant] I remember that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I was wondering how your conversations and your relationship built with Mr. Tsygankov.

[User] Well, he's quite a character, and he has a very distinctive personality. Initially, I was a little nervous about trying to establish a relationship with him. It seemed like he might be difficult to warm up to, or to get to warm up to me. But again, through the process of just repeated meetings, and listening as well as talking, I think we established a pretty good relationship.\n\n I think you were with me at the TIM when--this is not necessarily the most flattering incident, I guess, but I think it was in some sense important to the relationship, was we had spent like an hour one afternoon negotiating a paragraph, the wording of a paragraph on protocol. We really hashed through it, spent a lot of time on this one paragraph, and we all agreed that that's how it was going to be. When we walked in the next morning, he pulled out the protocol and he wanted to readdress that paragraph again. I got pretty adamant that we had already done that, and I wasn't going to spend any more time working that paragraph. End of story. He just said, "Okay."

[Assistant] I remember that.

[User] And we went on from there. It seems to me that since that point, the relationship was much better, and I think perhaps it was just that he saw that I was willing to take a stand, and in a sense that he couldn't push me around. It may not be the best way to state it, but I was someone who was willing to take a stand on something, and I think it helped.

[Assistant] He wanted to test your negotiating style and see what you were willing to give up with from one day to another.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we went on from there. It seems to me that since that point, the relationship was much better, and I think perhaps it was just that he saw that I was willing to take a stand, and in a sense that he couldn't push me around. It may not be the best way to state it, but I was someone who was willing to take a stand on something, and I think it helped.

[Assistant] He wanted to test your negotiating style and see what you were willing to give up with from one day to another.

[User] Maybe so. But you're right. Interestingly, I think he started his career at the Paton Institute in Kiev, in the Ukraine now. There he worked on some of their early welding systems that were flown on the Salyut back as early as the late sixties before he moved here.

[Assistant] I know he called his welding experiment or machine the Volcano, is what it translated to. I thought that was interesting. He said it's flown on the Shuttle once, but they didn't get to go outside because of the hatch problem. He said that they're trying to remanifest it to fly it again.

[User] I don't know where that is. I'm not sure if it's flown on the Shuttle. They were trying to fly it on the Shuttle. I think the deal was that they were manifested, but then because of the Shuttle hatch problem, that had a ripple effect which bumped him from the manifest. They're trying to get it back on the manifest, but there's lingering concerns with the experiment and the potential safety hazards and so forth. So it's a little uncertain what's going to happen with the whole thing.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit about when you made the decision to bring your family over to Russia and kind of act as the NASA liaison there in Moscow. Tell us a little bit about how that transpired, the decision process, and how you talked your family into it, or whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the data I saw, I couldn't draw any conclusions.

[Assistant] Because several people that we've talked to in Frank Culbertson's office felt like the Mir operating budget was so small at the beginning of the Phase One Program, that keeping the vehicle up there for them was very difficult, and then this process of this Mir Extension Program was able to get some spares up there that everybody felt was badly needed.

[User] Well, I would expect that's probably the case, but from the deliverable reports that I was receiving, there was no way to tell what effect either the money that was being spent in Phase One was affecting that situation, and really pretty much the spares that they were launching and reporting on were on Progress flights, but aside from the deliverable reports that we were receiving, of course, we know that we were launching spares and hardware for them when they were having especially critical failures. We were helping them quite a lot there.

[Assistant] Putting them on the Shuttle.

[User] Yes, on the Shuttle. And I think that that had to have been a positive effect for them, not only because it increased the up-mass capacity, but it also provided another dimension to their scheduling flexibility. If we had a vehicle that was being prepared for launch, we in some cases were able to do some light [late] manifest that were critically needed, whereas I'm not sure what the status was of a Progress flight or the availability of a Progress flight in that same time frame, but certainly it had to add a new dimension and give them a little more flexibility to deal with some of these critical situations.

[Assistant] Some of your early talks with Mr. Languev have kind of dealt with that subject between moving parts from either Progress or Shuttle to help on the station side, so it seemed like that was kind of all set in motion almost simultaneously.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think certainly onboard maintenance is going to be one of the critical activities, and I think it's going to be one of the significant activities for the crew time standpoint, and certainly there would be some advantage to having people represented in the crew. It may not be the entire crew, but at least have some selected individuals who are very capable and comfortable doing that kind of work. In fact, some of the feedback from the U.S. astronauts who have flown on Mir supports that. There have been some comments, very, very plain comments, that you need to have real handyman types as part of the crew to be able to deal with that. Mir certainly, being an older vehicle and hopefully being higher rates of failures than we'll be experiencing on station with it being a new vehicle, it may be that was more important on Mir that it would be on the station just because of the volume of activity. But certainly we expect the models that we've run indicate that there is going to be a significant number of maintenance tasks required on station, even early in the program, and certainly as the vehicle ages, undoubtedly that will become even more important.

[Assistant] Dan Bursch is one of the crew members I picked. I know he's your neighbor. Have you brought him over to work on your Mustang at all and give him some maintenance training at the house? [Laughter]

[User] [Laughter] No, I haven't drafted him to help out with anything, but he's kind of a garage mechanic himself, especially woodwork. He's a woodworker.

[Assistant] Well, you could get him to help with the wood floors, too, right? [Laughter]

[User] Good idea.

[Assistant] How do you think the operational experience from the Shuttle-Mir Program will benefit the International Space Station Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, the stimulus for that was from Shepherd to launch some of those items early. They included the Fluke scopemeter, which is kind of an elaborate multimeter-type device, battery charger, a [unclear]--

[Assistant] Logic analyzer was one.

[User] Logic analyzer, yes, and also the lab view software capability, which is resident on the PC, and an impact driver, and essentially a drill, some things like that that Shep felt were important that he have available early on, because I think his concern is that with being on a vehicle essentially that is right out of the showroom, and never tested in space before in an integrated fashion, that there's potential that there's going to be malfunctions that may require more in-depth activity on the crew member's part than what we would normally expect to see.\n\n These tools or diagnostic items were things that were planned to be flown on flight 6A, which would be right at the end of his mission, and he felt that it was important that we try to get them up early. So we worked with the Russians, and we provided the items to them in an off-the-shelf condition, and then it's up to them to try to make any necessary modifications to be compatible with the Russian power system or whatever, and also then to get them certified for flight. They're being launched on flight 2A1 as part of the Russian allocation, but this way we'll have some enhanced capabilities early on.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to add to the discussion?

[User] Nothing that I can think of.

[Assistant] I have one question that Paul Rollins always likes to ask. He's not here today, so I'll ask it for him. What's your favorite beer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The medical checklist is something we fly in every Space Shuttle mission, so this is no new idea. In fact, I would say one of the best medical checklists ever flown was the Skylab medical checklist. It's just an outstanding piece of work. But the idea to train Russians, to fly a supplemental medical kit to Mir, even though our person was to be flying as a cosmonaut, and to have a dual-language checklist, that was pretty much our doing, David and I, who felt that this was necessary to support our crew member and that this could be done. It would mean working very tightly with our Russian counterparts, because they had to certify and launch our kits and essentially agree with everything we put here. So it was quite an effort, but it did work out reasonably well.

[Assistant] I notice the page you showed us was about a collapsed lung. Does this {book} range from very minor to very extreme?

[User] Absolutely. This is designed to handle the simplest headache to the more dire disasters such as a collapsed lung, which you might get from a rapid pressure differential or pressure loss. The treatment for that is relatively simple, although it's something that most people wouldn't think of doing every day, and that is to take a large-bore needle and poke in the right place and decompress the pressure in the chest.

[Assistant] You're right. Most of us would not do that. [Laughter]

[User] Again, it's a technical skill that somebody who's technically proficient can do. It's a paramedic-type skill. Cosmonauts and astronauts can be trained to do this very well.

[Assistant] What's the length of training? Share some of the details of what you do on ground before they go up in the Mir. How do you get them prepared?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that an offer? [Laughter]

[Assistant] Sure, I'd be glad to offer it to you. Or do you see yourself as a ground crew person? Is it something you'd like to--

[User] As I said, I have the second best job in town. Being in my area, which is space medicine, obviously the desire to fly is there. Practicing medicine from afar is very difficult, and everything I do is because I am fascinated in what medicine is like in zero gravity, in space. I see them before they fly, I see them on the video, I see them when they come down, but, boy, even a short exposure to what they go through, to really experience what it's like, it would make me, (a), very much better at what I do, and, (b), of course, it would be very exciting and be very fulfilling.\n\n I studied G-induced loss of consciousness and effects of high-G turns for many years before I ever got in a T-38 and did a high-G turn, and all of a sudden the lights went on--or out, depending on how you look at it. But I could understand so much of what I knew from a cognitive standpoint so much quicker. Space flight would be that times 100. So, sure.

[Assistant] I'll see what we can do, but don't count on us. [Laughter] We certainly appreciate your time and your enthusiasm. It's got to be very rewarding to know that those folks that are working with you, I'm sure they get caught up in your excitement and enthusiasm for learning.

[User] Fortunately, we're surrounded by enthusiastic, bright, young, pro-space psychopaths who really work hard at this.

[Assistant] Is this something you wanted to do? Have you always wanted to be a doctor all your life, and just the aerospace came with it, or the other way around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't say that. I had a lot of interest. In fact, I would say aerospace medicine attracts people who aren't sure where they want to focus, but who are interested in a lot of things. I was a marine biology major as an undergrad. I really liked the ocean and sailing and whatnot. I like to fly. I like medicine. I like medical research. I like astronomy; I build telescopes. There's nothing that pulls all that together better than what I'm doing.

[Assistant] I think you called yourself correct, that you are lucky that you've found something that you can have all your interests in and do well at.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Thanks again.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Thanks again.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?

[User] My favorite beer. Well, most of my friends in Russia know that I don't tolerate alcohol very well, but I do drink a Guinness about twice a year like clockwork.

[Assistant] We spoke with one of the Russians and he said milk was his favorite beer, because he didn't drink.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?

[User] My favorite beer. Well, most of my friends in Russia know that I don't tolerate alcohol very well, but I do drink a Guinness about twice a year like clockwork.

[Assistant] We spoke with one of the Russians and he said milk was his favorite beer, because he didn't drink.

[User] That's a very unusual Russian. Very unusual Russian.

[Assistant] Introduce us to your family. We kind of closed them {photograph} off there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My favorite beer. Well, most of my friends in Russia know that I don't tolerate alcohol very well, but I do drink a Guinness about twice a year like clockwork.

[Assistant] We spoke with one of the Russians and he said milk was his favorite beer, because he didn't drink.

[User] That's a very unusual Russian. Very unusual Russian.

[Assistant] Introduce us to your family. We kind of closed them {photograph} off there.

[User] I had to move them [the photographs]. Well, these guys actually get a tremendous amount of credit, because I had to leave them for many, many months at a time during that Phase One period. This is my dear wife, Dr. / Professor Barratt, Michelle, who is a pediatrician up at the University of Texas and Assistant Professor of Medicine, public health master's and all that kind of stuff. And my children, as you can see, some of them are not homegrown, but Angela, Joey, Meeta, Prasad, four reasonably enthusiastic, also relatively pro-space individuals who are also extremely tolerant, and I owe them a lot for having to leave them for so long. But great kids, lots of fun.

[Assistant] I'm sure they're always glad to see you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a very unusual Russian. Very unusual Russian.

[Assistant] Introduce us to your family. We kind of closed them {photograph} off there.

[User] I had to move them [the photographs]. Well, these guys actually get a tremendous amount of credit, because I had to leave them for many, many months at a time during that Phase One period. This is my dear wife, Dr. / Professor Barratt, Michelle, who is a pediatrician up at the University of Texas and Assistant Professor of Medicine, public health master's and all that kind of stuff. And my children, as you can see, some of them are not homegrown, but Angela, Joey, Meeta, Prasad, four reasonably enthusiastic, also relatively pro-space individuals who are also extremely tolerant, and I owe them a lot for having to leave them for so long. But great kids, lots of fun.

[Assistant] I'm sure they're always glad to see you.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I'm sure they're very proud of their dad, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had gone through two years of college. I was tired of school. I had two friends and the three of us decided that we would take a trip down to the tip of South America, Patagonia, and turn around and come back. And the one friend had, uh, his home was in Nome, Alaska. He said he could pick up a jeep and trailer for nothing Army surplus, and you could get a thousand dollar job during that summer. Another friend said you can get a thousand dollars. I said I could get a thousand dollars. So that was our plan. Well, it turned out the whole thing turned out that I was the only one who made any money. The other two couldn't get jobs, couldn't get the jeep, couldn't get the trailer. And so I was rather depressed or did not depressed. I was just disappointed not being able to go. And so I went back to my summer job with Green Giant. And, uh, but before I did that, my mother said, you know, the Peace Corps is looking for people. Maybe you'd be interested in applying for a position or something down South America. That's where you want to go. So I applied and about three weeks later, they said, yeah, report for training. And so I was very happy to go. And, uh, I was looking for adventure and I enjoyed my statement on that very much.

[Assistant] Well, tell me whenever you decided to go into the Peace Corps, what did your family think?

[User] That they were very supportive. Fact. My mother, who suggested I try and my dad was very supportive and he said, yeah, sounds good.

[Assistant] Ok, so since you knew you were going to be gone for a couple of years, did you do anything special preparation at home to get ready to go or?

[User] Not really. I was ready to go. I was looking forward to something different and I was ready to go. I was wanting to do right.

[Assistant] Ok, well, then let's look at when you first got to training in. Tell me a little bit about your impression of that and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That they were very supportive. Fact. My mother, who suggested I try and my dad was very supportive and he said, yeah, sounds good.

[Assistant] Ok, so since you knew you were going to be gone for a couple of years, did you do anything special preparation at home to get ready to go or?

[User] Not really. I was ready to go. I was looking forward to something different and I was ready to go. I was wanting to do right.

[Assistant] Ok, well, then let's look at when you first got to training in. Tell me a little bit about your impression of that and.

[User] Well, I enjoyed the physical part. I always enjoyed the physical part of training. But my first impression, I got in the plane in Chicago was 72 degrees. The plane landed in Tempe, Arizona, and I walked to the front of the plane and started to step out. There's 113 degrees. I almost turned around back, but I knew I'd committed some, but not the training. I enjoyed the training, I did.

[Assistant] So, what can you tell me about the training, from your perspective, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I was ready to go. I was looking forward to something different and I was ready to go. I was wanting to do right.

[Assistant] Ok, well, then let's look at when you first got to training in. Tell me a little bit about your impression of that and.

[User] Well, I enjoyed the physical part. I always enjoyed the physical part of training. But my first impression, I got in the plane in Chicago was 72 degrees. The plane landed in Tempe, Arizona, and I walked to the front of the plane and started to step out. There's 113 degrees. I almost turned around back, but I knew I'd committed some, but not the training. I enjoyed the training, I did.

[Assistant] So, what can you tell me about the training, from your perspective, what did you do?

[User] Not really knowing what to expect. I didn't know whether the training was appropriate or not. I don't know. The language training I think was good. The physical training was probably more than we needed. But as I said, I enjoyed that. So as far as preparing us for living in Bolivia, I think they probably did as well as they could have. They gave us information about another culture, conflict or not. But you know what to expect from the culture. And I had really, uh. I expected pretty much with the games. I had no disappointments with it.

[Assistant] I mean, can you think of anything in particular that had happened in Arizona you remember in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I enjoyed the physical part. I always enjoyed the physical part of training. But my first impression, I got in the plane in Chicago was 72 degrees. The plane landed in Tempe, Arizona, and I walked to the front of the plane and started to step out. There's 113 degrees. I almost turned around back, but I knew I'd committed some, but not the training. I enjoyed the training, I did.

[Assistant] So, what can you tell me about the training, from your perspective, what did you do?

[User] Not really knowing what to expect. I didn't know whether the training was appropriate or not. I don't know. The language training I think was good. The physical training was probably more than we needed. But as I said, I enjoyed that. So as far as preparing us for living in Bolivia, I think they probably did as well as they could have. They gave us information about another culture, conflict or not. But you know what to expect from the culture. And I had really, uh. I expected pretty much with the games. I had no disappointments with it.

[Assistant] I mean, can you think of anything in particular that had happened in Arizona you remember in your mind?

[User] I enjoyed living on the reservation. I got a kick out of it and a few other things, you know, the little things like Bill call me all night. I missed the bus when you're in Tempe and head back to the Indian reservation, I guess that was not unusual. The people doing the same thing. And of course, pump number one was interesting.

[Assistant] The only cold post in the hole.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really knowing what to expect. I didn't know whether the training was appropriate or not. I don't know. The language training I think was good. The physical training was probably more than we needed. But as I said, I enjoyed that. So as far as preparing us for living in Bolivia, I think they probably did as well as they could have. They gave us information about another culture, conflict or not. But you know what to expect from the culture. And I had really, uh. I expected pretty much with the games. I had no disappointments with it.

[Assistant] I mean, can you think of anything in particular that had happened in Arizona you remember in your mind?

[User] I enjoyed living on the reservation. I got a kick out of it and a few other things, you know, the little things like Bill call me all night. I missed the bus when you're in Tempe and head back to the Indian reservation, I guess that was not unusual. The people doing the same thing. And of course, pump number one was interesting.

[Assistant] The only cold post in the hole.

[User] I can't think of any one particular thing, but the whole experience. I enjoyed the one time we went to that Indian meeting, where were the Indian reservation invited to me. I was impressed with it and enjoyed.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Tell me a little bit about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed living on the reservation. I got a kick out of it and a few other things, you know, the little things like Bill call me all night. I missed the bus when you're in Tempe and head back to the Indian reservation, I guess that was not unusual. The people doing the same thing. And of course, pump number one was interesting.

[Assistant] The only cold post in the hole.

[User] I can't think of any one particular thing, but the whole experience. I enjoyed the one time we went to that Indian meeting, where were the Indian reservation invited to me. I was impressed with it and enjoyed.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Tell me a little bit about that.

[User] Journey from Arizona, time for after the training. I flew to Puerto Rico. I don't remember anything particular about it after Arizona. I mean, I remember finishing up with Arizona. Did we go home for a while after that or we go right back to Puerto Rico? But OK.

[Assistant] Yeah, in Puerto Rico, we were in the group that went to New Orleans and


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't think of any one particular thing, but the whole experience. I enjoyed the one time we went to that Indian meeting, where were the Indian reservation invited to me. I was impressed with it and enjoyed.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Tell me a little bit about that.

[User] Journey from Arizona, time for after the training. I flew to Puerto Rico. I don't remember anything particular about it after Arizona. I mean, I remember finishing up with Arizona. Did we go home for a while after that or we go right back to Puerto Rico? But OK.

[Assistant] Yeah, in Puerto Rico, we were in the group that went to New Orleans and

[User] Yeah, yeah, I don't remember anything about New Orleans except seeing the city where we live.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about once we got in Puerto Rico? What was that experience like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Journey from Arizona, time for after the training. I flew to Puerto Rico. I don't remember anything particular about it after Arizona. I mean, I remember finishing up with Arizona. Did we go home for a while after that or we go right back to Puerto Rico? But OK.

[Assistant] Yeah, in Puerto Rico, we were in the group that went to New Orleans and

[User] Yeah, yeah, I don't remember anything about New Orleans except seeing the city where we live.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about once we got in Puerto Rico? What was that experience like?

[User] When we landed or when we started raining?

[Assistant] When we got to Arecibo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, I don't remember anything about New Orleans except seeing the city where we live.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about once we got in Puerto Rico? What was that experience like?

[User] When we landed or when we started raining?

[Assistant] When we got to Arecibo.

[User] Arecibo, I don't have any recollection of anything in particular. Like I was expecting to be shuffled off to a training center and the next morning we begin training. I expected it. And so I guess what happened was pretty much what I expected. OK, so nothing sticks in my mind.

[Assistant] Ok, how about the training there in your mind about that training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we landed or when we started raining?

[Assistant] When we got to Arecibo.

[User] Arecibo, I don't have any recollection of anything in particular. Like I was expecting to be shuffled off to a training center and the next morning we begin training. I expected it. And so I guess what happened was pretty much what I expected. OK, so nothing sticks in my mind.

[Assistant] Ok, how about the training there in your mind about that training?

[User] Uh, the only thing I can remember that really stuck in my mind was that running two miles in Arizona, I you know, I don't like to run, but, you know, I did two miles and jog the first time. I jog two miles to try to jog two miles hour in Puerto Rico. I said, no, this humidity is more like. But yeah, the training I had there was interesting. Yeah, of course it was it stressed the Spanish language, I think much more intensely than. But again, the physical training was actually I love the rock climbing. That was that was from.

[Assistant] What about the drown proofing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Arecibo, I don't have any recollection of anything in particular. Like I was expecting to be shuffled off to a training center and the next morning we begin training. I expected it. And so I guess what happened was pretty much what I expected. OK, so nothing sticks in my mind.

[Assistant] Ok, how about the training there in your mind about that training?

[User] Uh, the only thing I can remember that really stuck in my mind was that running two miles in Arizona, I you know, I don't like to run, but, you know, I did two miles and jog the first time. I jog two miles to try to jog two miles hour in Puerto Rico. I said, no, this humidity is more like. But yeah, the training I had there was interesting. Yeah, of course it was it stressed the Spanish language, I think much more intensely than. But again, the physical training was actually I love the rock climbing. That was that was from.

[Assistant] What about the drown proofing?

[User] Oh, yeah. Hey, when I was a kid, ten years old, that's what I did. And when I got to Peace Corps training, they told me, well, this is drown proofing all it is. I've been doing this all my life.

[Assistant] Ok, so what about the hiking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, the only thing I can remember that really stuck in my mind was that running two miles in Arizona, I you know, I don't like to run, but, you know, I did two miles and jog the first time. I jog two miles to try to jog two miles hour in Puerto Rico. I said, no, this humidity is more like. But yeah, the training I had there was interesting. Yeah, of course it was it stressed the Spanish language, I think much more intensely than. But again, the physical training was actually I love the rock climbing. That was that was from.

[Assistant] What about the drown proofing?

[User] Oh, yeah. Hey, when I was a kid, ten years old, that's what I did. And when I got to Peace Corps training, they told me, well, this is drown proofing all it is. I've been doing this all my life.

[Assistant] Ok, so what about the hiking?

[User] Loved it. Loved it.

[Assistant] Which group were you in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Hey, when I was a kid, ten years old, that's what I did. And when I got to Peace Corps training, they told me, well, this is drown proofing all it is. I've been doing this all my life.

[Assistant] Ok, so what about the hiking?

[User] Loved it. Loved it.

[Assistant] Which group were you in?

[User] And, some users talking about that. I was with the Russ Nightawin. I was also with the group with Larry Oglesby. And I can't remember some of the other people in that group. But the reason I remember Russ was that we were scheduled to go over to Mingo. And so we went up to Mingo and we got to the point where we could hardly get through the trees. And the guy said, no, there's no way to get over this. So we went back down to, I guess, the road we're walking on. And Russ and I looked at each other and said, I think we can get up that mountain. So the next day we went back and I went back it over the other guy's window and we were determined if there was any way whatsoever we were going to get over that mountain. But we got to the point where we were squeezing side. We decided, no, there's no way. So that was the thing that stuck in my mind about that that height.

[Assistant] Ok, so, uh, did you get separated from the group? Did you make it back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Loved it. Loved it.

[Assistant] Which group were you in?

[User] And, some users talking about that. I was with the Russ Nightawin. I was also with the group with Larry Oglesby. And I can't remember some of the other people in that group. But the reason I remember Russ was that we were scheduled to go over to Mingo. And so we went up to Mingo and we got to the point where we could hardly get through the trees. And the guy said, no, there's no way to get over this. So we went back down to, I guess, the road we're walking on. And Russ and I looked at each other and said, I think we can get up that mountain. So the next day we went back and I went back it over the other guy's window and we were determined if there was any way whatsoever we were going to get over that mountain. But we got to the point where we were squeezing side. We decided, no, there's no way. So that was the thing that stuck in my mind about that that height.

[Assistant] Ok, so, uh, did you get separated from the group? Did you make it back?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. We wouldn't do. We were going back.

[Assistant] How did you get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, some users talking about that. I was with the Russ Nightawin. I was also with the group with Larry Oglesby. And I can't remember some of the other people in that group. But the reason I remember Russ was that we were scheduled to go over to Mingo. And so we went up to Mingo and we got to the point where we could hardly get through the trees. And the guy said, no, there's no way to get over this. So we went back down to, I guess, the road we're walking on. And Russ and I looked at each other and said, I think we can get up that mountain. So the next day we went back and I went back it over the other guy's window and we were determined if there was any way whatsoever we were going to get over that mountain. But we got to the point where we were squeezing side. We decided, no, there's no way. So that was the thing that stuck in my mind about that that height.

[Assistant] Ok, so, uh, did you get separated from the group? Did you make it back?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. We wouldn't do. We were going back.

[Assistant] How did you get there?

[User] How do we get there. Walk. Oh yeah. Sure we walked. Yes, we walked. We got separated. When we finally asked us if we would like being separate and we said, well at first we decided we were thinking, should we burden this fellow poor fellow with beating us? But we were so hungry. So we said yes.

[Assistant] I assume you took money to bail them out, not to take the money, but he was forced to live off the land.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. We wouldn't do. We were going back.

[Assistant] How did you get there?

[User] How do we get there. Walk. Oh yeah. Sure we walked. Yes, we walked. We got separated. When we finally asked us if we would like being separate and we said, well at first we decided we were thinking, should we burden this fellow poor fellow with beating us? But we were so hungry. So we said yes.

[Assistant] I assume you took money to bail them out, not to take the money, but he was forced to live off the land.

[User] But, you know, I don't remember. We may have bought something to drink. I don't recall buying anything to eat. I don’t call him either.

[Assistant] OK, so Puerto Rico basically was a walk in the park for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How do we get there. Walk. Oh yeah. Sure we walked. Yes, we walked. We got separated. When we finally asked us if we would like being separate and we said, well at first we decided we were thinking, should we burden this fellow poor fellow with beating us? But we were so hungry. So we said yes.

[Assistant] I assume you took money to bail them out, not to take the money, but he was forced to live off the land.

[User] But, you know, I don't remember. We may have bought something to drink. I don't recall buying anything to eat. I don’t call him either.

[Assistant] OK, so Puerto Rico basically was a walk in the park for you?

[User] Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] After Puerto Rico, did you tell me about what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, I don't remember. We may have bought something to drink. I don't recall buying anything to eat. I don’t call him either.

[Assistant] OK, so Puerto Rico basically was a walk in the park for you?

[User] Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] After Puerto Rico, did you tell me about what happened?

[User] Well, I was excited. Get ready to go. Yeah. While I was packing away. Yes, well, I knew I had a few friends over and talking with them and telling them what I had experienced and what was going to be going on in the future. Yeah, it was it was fun doing it.

[Assistant] But what about when you left home for a little bit after getting ready for tell me what your next impression.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] After Puerto Rico, did you tell me about what happened?

[User] Well, I was excited. Get ready to go. Yeah. While I was packing away. Yes, well, I knew I had a few friends over and talking with them and telling them what I had experienced and what was going to be going on in the future. Yeah, it was it was fun doing it.

[Assistant] But what about when you left home for a little bit after getting ready for tell me what your next impression.

[User] I was anxious to go.

[Assistant] And what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was excited. Get ready to go. Yeah. While I was packing away. Yes, well, I knew I had a few friends over and talking with them and telling them what I had experienced and what was going to be going on in the future. Yeah, it was it was fun doing it.

[Assistant] But what about when you left home for a little bit after getting ready for tell me what your next impression.

[User] I was anxious to go.

[Assistant] And what happened?

[User] Well, normal goodbyes.

[Assistant] Well, but when you got to the destination point that they were put together through Miami.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was anxious to go.

[Assistant] And what happened?

[User] Well, normal goodbyes.

[Assistant] Well, but when you got to the destination point that they were put together through Miami.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And you remember about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, normal goodbyes.

[Assistant] Well, but when you got to the destination point that they were put together through Miami.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And you remember about that?

[User] I remember meeting with the people that were there, you know, the bunch it was going to be going I don't remember anything in particular. It seemed to me that we were pretty happy bunch, we were over here.

[Assistant] Except for the Cuban Missile Crisis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And you remember about that?

[User] I remember meeting with the people that were there, you know, the bunch it was going to be going I don't remember anything in particular. It seemed to me that we were pretty happy bunch, we were over here.

[Assistant] Except for the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[User] Yeah, yeah, of course, because we didn't know that.

[Assistant] Well, how did you feel when they told you weren't really going to Bolivia yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember meeting with the people that were there, you know, the bunch it was going to be going I don't remember anything in particular. It seemed to me that we were pretty happy bunch, we were over here.

[Assistant] Except for the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[User] Yeah, yeah, of course, because we didn't know that.

[Assistant] Well, how did you feel when they told you weren't really going to Bolivia yet?

[User] Uh, I don't remember. I guess I probably felt disappointed. But then I believe they told us that this is probably going to be a temporary thing and that we'll eventually be going. But they didn't know exactly when. And they told us we were going to be housed in Vermont for a while. I thought. That's right. Vermont is beautiful this time of year. So I thought, OK, I can handle this.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, do you remember anything particular in Vermont? What did you do in Vermont?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, of course, because we didn't know that.

[Assistant] Well, how did you feel when they told you weren't really going to Bolivia yet?

[User] Uh, I don't remember. I guess I probably felt disappointed. But then I believe they told us that this is probably going to be a temporary thing and that we'll eventually be going. But they didn't know exactly when. And they told us we were going to be housed in Vermont for a while. I thought. That's right. Vermont is beautiful this time of year. So I thought, OK, I can handle this.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, do you remember anything particular in Vermont? What did you do in Vermont?

[User] I can remember that we were at any time during the day or night, we could get peanut butter cookie sandwiches or something like that, and I enjoyed the fact that we were basically free. We didn't have any responsibilities to report to here or report to there. And it was kind of a vacation in between training and employment or a placement in Bolivia. So, yes, it was an enjoyable break from training and it was restful. I enjoyed it. Yes.

[Assistant] How about Boston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I don't remember. I guess I probably felt disappointed. But then I believe they told us that this is probably going to be a temporary thing and that we'll eventually be going. But they didn't know exactly when. And they told us we were going to be housed in Vermont for a while. I thought. That's right. Vermont is beautiful this time of year. So I thought, OK, I can handle this.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, do you remember anything particular in Vermont? What did you do in Vermont?

[User] I can remember that we were at any time during the day or night, we could get peanut butter cookie sandwiches or something like that, and I enjoyed the fact that we were basically free. We didn't have any responsibilities to report to here or report to there. And it was kind of a vacation in between training and employment or a placement in Bolivia. So, yes, it was an enjoyable break from training and it was restful. I enjoyed it. Yes.

[Assistant] How about Boston?

[User] You know, we were talking about it and I don't remember a thing about Boston. Yeah, well, I guess I did. I don't remember.

[Assistant] I don't think we left anybody behind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can remember that we were at any time during the day or night, we could get peanut butter cookie sandwiches or something like that, and I enjoyed the fact that we were basically free. We didn't have any responsibilities to report to here or report to there. And it was kind of a vacation in between training and employment or a placement in Bolivia. So, yes, it was an enjoyable break from training and it was restful. I enjoyed it. Yes.

[Assistant] How about Boston?

[User] You know, we were talking about it and I don't remember a thing about Boston. Yeah, well, I guess I did. I don't remember.

[Assistant] I don't think we left anybody behind.

[User] Yeah, I remember, you know, the summer I think it was Larry was talking about or somebody I think everyone was talking about the fact that they didn't want our group to influence the group of teachers that was coming in. And I had forgotten all about them until he mentioned it. And so they removed us for a while and sent us to Boston. And I have no recollection of that. You know, if somebody had told me that had happened. I don't like cities. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, OK, so when we finally got to Bolivia, can you tell me something about your impressions or what you thought when you first got to La Paz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we were talking about it and I don't remember a thing about Boston. Yeah, well, I guess I did. I don't remember.

[Assistant] I don't think we left anybody behind.

[User] Yeah, I remember, you know, the summer I think it was Larry was talking about or somebody I think everyone was talking about the fact that they didn't want our group to influence the group of teachers that was coming in. And I had forgotten all about them until he mentioned it. And so they removed us for a while and sent us to Boston. And I have no recollection of that. You know, if somebody had told me that had happened. I don't like cities. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, OK, so when we finally got to Bolivia, can you tell me something about your impressions or what you thought when you first got to La Paz?

[User] Cool. Now, when I saw the La Paz coming in over the mountains, got to get down to the airport. I thought this this this is a nice place. I like this place. I like the mountains. The scenery was pretty much what I expected to see, the people were interesting. I mean, the garb and I went and again, we pretty much knew what to expect there. And I saw it and I thought, yeah, this this is interesting. This would be an interesting experience.

[Assistant] So do you remember much about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I remember, you know, the summer I think it was Larry was talking about or somebody I think everyone was talking about the fact that they didn't want our group to influence the group of teachers that was coming in. And I had forgotten all about them until he mentioned it. And so they removed us for a while and sent us to Boston. And I have no recollection of that. You know, if somebody had told me that had happened. I don't like cities. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, OK, so when we finally got to Bolivia, can you tell me something about your impressions or what you thought when you first got to La Paz?

[User] Cool. Now, when I saw the La Paz coming in over the mountains, got to get down to the airport. I thought this this this is a nice place. I like this place. I like the mountains. The scenery was pretty much what I expected to see, the people were interesting. I mean, the garb and I went and again, we pretty much knew what to expect there. And I saw it and I thought, yeah, this this is interesting. This would be an interesting experience.

[Assistant] So do you remember much about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?

[User] Oh, yes, I drove. Did you?

[Assistant] Yes. Well, that was brave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cool. Now, when I saw the La Paz coming in over the mountains, got to get down to the airport. I thought this this this is a nice place. I like this place. I like the mountains. The scenery was pretty much what I expected to see, the people were interesting. I mean, the garb and I went and again, we pretty much knew what to expect there. And I saw it and I thought, yeah, this this is interesting. This would be an interesting experience.

[Assistant] So do you remember much about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?

[User] Oh, yes, I drove. Did you?

[Assistant] Yes. Well, that was brave.

[User] And I like doing I was doing four wheel drives around the curves, and I like doing that. And I can remember Jim Herberger and Judy and a little silver in their car and they didn't seem to have it.

[Assistant] I obviously I wasn't in the car you were in. I practically had a nervous breakdown, but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I drove. Did you?

[Assistant] Yes. Well, that was brave.

[User] And I like doing I was doing four wheel drives around the curves, and I like doing that. And I can remember Jim Herberger and Judy and a little silver in their car and they didn't seem to have it.

[Assistant] I obviously I wasn't in the car you were in. I practically had a nervous breakdown, but.

[User] You should have been you wouldn't have been on it shouldn't be a good thing you weren't in my jeep.

[Assistant] So I want to go up to Cochabamba then. What where did you end up going? What was your particular job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I like doing I was doing four wheel drives around the curves, and I like doing that. And I can remember Jim Herberger and Judy and a little silver in their car and they didn't seem to have it.

[Assistant] I obviously I wasn't in the car you were in. I practically had a nervous breakdown, but.

[User] You should have been you wouldn't have been on it shouldn't be a good thing you weren't in my jeep.

[Assistant] So I want to go up to Cochabamba then. What where did you end up going? What was your particular job?

[User] Uh, well I wasn’t stationed in Cochabamba while we were there.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in Santa Cruz.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You should have been you wouldn't have been on it shouldn't be a good thing you weren't in my jeep.

[Assistant] So I want to go up to Cochabamba then. What where did you end up going? What was your particular job?

[User] Uh, well I wasn’t stationed in Cochabamba while we were there.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in Santa Cruz.

[User] I mean, I was.

[Assistant] I know. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. So then we did the trip to Santa Cruz. Did you drive too? That was a better road, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, well I wasn’t stationed in Cochabamba while we were there.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in Santa Cruz.

[User] I mean, I was.

[Assistant] I know. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. So then we did the trip to Santa Cruz. Did you drive too? That was a better road, wasn’t it?

[User] Yeah, flat top.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So when we got to Santa Cruz and where did you end up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I was.

[Assistant] I know. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. So then we did the trip to Santa Cruz. Did you drive too? That was a better road, wasn’t it?

[User] Yeah, flat top.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So when we got to Santa Cruz and where did you end up?

[User] Uh the place we all stayed for just a night or two before we start started being dispersed to our area. There's a pension and I remember that we stayed there. No, I think when we got there it was probably afternoon or something like that. And we were sitting around at these tables and somebody had mentioned maybe Israel clerk had said something about them. They would bring us coffee and a roll or something. And we were sitting there and kind of expecting this because we've been told to expect it. And it turned out that the people running the place didn't do that except in the morning they would bring your coffee rolls. And so they finally, I think, did start to bring but it was something that they didn't expect, as we found out. But that's the only thing I remember about that particular time we went in there and.

[Assistant] So then where were you posted?