[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I've got my copy, and I don't know what to do about that unless you—

[Assistant] We have some sources to get older books, and we also go through JCS Library.

[User] Charles Murray's book only had one printing. By the way, he owns the rights to it.

[Assistant] Oh, really.

[User] Yes, he does. Simon and Shuster let him have the rights to it.

[Assistant] Terrific for him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Charles Murray's book only had one printing. By the way, he owns the rights to it.

[Assistant] Oh, really.

[User] Yes, he does. Simon and Shuster let him have the rights to it.

[Assistant] Terrific for him.

[User] Well, unless you're trying to use it. Then his agent gets involved. Fred Schoeller, the fellow at Computer Software Corp, I gave him his number, and he called up and says, "Hey," he says, "I want to do a CD-ROM on your book, not a reading book, but an archival CD-ROM where people can reference and search through your book and use it as a research tool."\n\n The guy said, "Talk to my agent." Of course, he called his agent, the agent wanted all kinds of money, so that killed that project. That would have been really kind of nifty.

[Assistant] Yes. Well, we've actually been able to find two copies of that, so we've been lucky.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually that is a confusing thing. When we first started designing the SSME, everybody—external tank, orbiter, everybody—did their thing, and decided what weight their element required in order to complete a mission. So the engine requirements were based on those estimates. At that time when we first started developing the engine, the requirement was 100 percent power level. We called that rated power level. Later on the weight went up on the orbiter and other elements and we really needed more than what we’d been planning for. We had enough margin in the engine—actually, as I recall, we certified to fly 109 percent. Then later 104 percent, then 104.5 percent were baselined for flight. Really all that means is that flight power levels were 4.5 percent higher than the early plans as to what the engine was required to do.

[Assistant] It’s an interesting concept when you try and think about it; you wonder how is that possible.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about testing with the integrated subsystem.

[User] In a rocket engine, all the components have to play together. They have to all be compatible with each other. The low speed fuel pump has to deliver satisfactory inlet condition to the high pressure pump, same way with the LOX [liquid oxygen] pump. When you talk about a pump, you’re talking about a component. When you talk about an engine, you’re talking about all the components, and they all have to play together in order for it to operate satisfactorily.

[Assistant] There was some testing done with the integrated subsystem test program out at Stennis. Were you involved in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about testing with the integrated subsystem.

[User] In a rocket engine, all the components have to play together. They have to all be compatible with each other. The low speed fuel pump has to deliver satisfactory inlet condition to the high pressure pump, same way with the LOX [liquid oxygen] pump. When you talk about a pump, you’re talking about a component. When you talk about an engine, you’re talking about all the components, and they all have to play together in order for it to operate satisfactorily.

[Assistant] There was some testing done with the integrated subsystem test program out at Stennis. Were you involved in that?

[User] Yes. That was where we not only integrated the engine within itself but the testing also included an external tank. The external tank is part of the propulsion system. So what I said about the engine, all the parts having to play together, goes for the whole Shuttle really. That’s where we did that kind of testing. We’d test at external tank at flight temperatures and pressures. We had a propellant depletion cutoff system so that [if] you started running out of propellant it shut the engine down; if you started running out of hydrogen or oxygen it would shut the engine down, because it gets to be catastrophic when you lose the fluid and the pump is operating. First you have cavitation and then you have parts rubbing together.

[Assistant] Was there ever any point when you were working as chief engineer that you thought this is not going to work? There were fires on the test stand?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In a rocket engine, all the components have to play together. They have to all be compatible with each other. The low speed fuel pump has to deliver satisfactory inlet condition to the high pressure pump, same way with the LOX [liquid oxygen] pump. When you talk about a pump, you’re talking about a component. When you talk about an engine, you’re talking about all the components, and they all have to play together in order for it to operate satisfactorily.

[Assistant] There was some testing done with the integrated subsystem test program out at Stennis. Were you involved in that?

[User] Yes. That was where we not only integrated the engine within itself but the testing also included an external tank. The external tank is part of the propulsion system. So what I said about the engine, all the parts having to play together, goes for the whole Shuttle really. That’s where we did that kind of testing. We’d test at external tank at flight temperatures and pressures. We had a propellant depletion cutoff system so that [if] you started running out of propellant it shut the engine down; if you started running out of hydrogen or oxygen it would shut the engine down, because it gets to be catastrophic when you lose the fluid and the pump is operating. First you have cavitation and then you have parts rubbing together.

[Assistant] Was there ever any point when you were working as chief engineer that you thought this is not going to work? There were fires on the test stand?

[User] Yes, we had a lot of problems. Normally in a space program, you really need to start work on the engine earlier than you do the other stuff, because engine time to design and develop is longer than other components as a rule. We used to talk about seven years being about the time that it took to design and certify an engine. I think that’s probably true for the gas generator cycle. With staged combustion it could be longer than that, depending on what kind of problems you run into.

[Assistant] Were you facing any pressure from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] or from JSC with the program office? Because the engine was almost a pacing item for the orbiter, along with the thermal protection system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was where we not only integrated the engine within itself but the testing also included an external tank. The external tank is part of the propulsion system. So what I said about the engine, all the parts having to play together, goes for the whole Shuttle really. That’s where we did that kind of testing. We’d test at external tank at flight temperatures and pressures. We had a propellant depletion cutoff system so that [if] you started running out of propellant it shut the engine down; if you started running out of hydrogen or oxygen it would shut the engine down, because it gets to be catastrophic when you lose the fluid and the pump is operating. First you have cavitation and then you have parts rubbing together.

[Assistant] Was there ever any point when you were working as chief engineer that you thought this is not going to work? There were fires on the test stand?

[User] Yes, we had a lot of problems. Normally in a space program, you really need to start work on the engine earlier than you do the other stuff, because engine time to design and develop is longer than other components as a rule. We used to talk about seven years being about the time that it took to design and certify an engine. I think that’s probably true for the gas generator cycle. With staged combustion it could be longer than that, depending on what kind of problems you run into.

[Assistant] Were you facing any pressure from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] or from JSC with the program office? Because the engine was almost a pacing item for the orbiter, along with the thermal protection system.

[User] The only real pressure we got is when they thought it was taking us too long or we were spending too much money. They didn’t get into the technical aspects of the engine, except when they limited flight of a redesigned high pressure fuel pump to one of the three engines.

[Assistant] How long were you chief engineer during the development, design, and test?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had a lot of problems. Normally in a space program, you really need to start work on the engine earlier than you do the other stuff, because engine time to design and develop is longer than other components as a rule. We used to talk about seven years being about the time that it took to design and certify an engine. I think that’s probably true for the gas generator cycle. With staged combustion it could be longer than that, depending on what kind of problems you run into.

[Assistant] Were you facing any pressure from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] or from JSC with the program office? Because the engine was almost a pacing item for the orbiter, along with the thermal protection system.

[User] The only real pressure we got is when they thought it was taking us too long or we were spending too much money. They didn’t get into the technical aspects of the engine, except when they limited flight of a redesigned high pressure fuel pump to one of the three engines.

[Assistant] How long were you chief engineer during the development, design, and test?

[User] Two, three years, something like that.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were co-chief engineer. Who was your co-chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only real pressure we got is when they thought it was taking us too long or we were spending too much money. They didn’t get into the technical aspects of the engine, except when they limited flight of a redesigned high pressure fuel pump to one of the three engines.

[Assistant] How long were you chief engineer during the development, design, and test?

[User] Two, three years, something like that.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were co-chief engineer. Who was your co-chief?

[User] A fellow named Jerry Thomson. He started out being the chief engineer for the engine and we ran into all these problems. The program manager, who was J. R. [James R.] Thompson, decided that we needed a chief engineer at Canoga Park at all times. He told me that he thought that I should go out there and stay. Fortunately, he made me co-chief engineer so I only spent half of my time at Canoga Park.\n\n It was bad then, the weekend was bad. During the week there’s action going on. On Saturday I’d go down and work half a day till 1:00. I’d be occupied until about 1:00 on Saturday, then there would be nothing to do for the rest of the weekend. It seemed like everything in California closes down on Sunday. You get that big thick Los Angeles newspaper— [I] really wasn’t interested in a lot of the local news—the weekends were terrible. It was almost like you’d been overseas and coming home for the next six weeks. Those six weeks at home went by real fast.

[Assistant] Did you play a role in closing out the test stands out in California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two, three years, something like that.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were co-chief engineer. Who was your co-chief?

[User] A fellow named Jerry Thomson. He started out being the chief engineer for the engine and we ran into all these problems. The program manager, who was J. R. [James R.] Thompson, decided that we needed a chief engineer at Canoga Park at all times. He told me that he thought that I should go out there and stay. Fortunately, he made me co-chief engineer so I only spent half of my time at Canoga Park.\n\n It was bad then, the weekend was bad. During the week there’s action going on. On Saturday I’d go down and work half a day till 1:00. I’d be occupied until about 1:00 on Saturday, then there would be nothing to do for the rest of the weekend. It seemed like everything in California closes down on Sunday. You get that big thick Los Angeles newspaper— [I] really wasn’t interested in a lot of the local news—the weekends were terrible. It was almost like you’d been overseas and coming home for the next six weeks. Those six weeks at home went by real fast.

[Assistant] Did you play a role in closing out the test stands out in California?

[User] No, I didn’t. I guess it got to the point where they felt like they could do all the testing they needed at Stennis. There used to be a lot of action on the A-3 test stand, up on the hill, as they called it, or Santa Susana.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about some of those tests? How long did they last?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A fellow named Jerry Thomson. He started out being the chief engineer for the engine and we ran into all these problems. The program manager, who was J. R. [James R.] Thompson, decided that we needed a chief engineer at Canoga Park at all times. He told me that he thought that I should go out there and stay. Fortunately, he made me co-chief engineer so I only spent half of my time at Canoga Park.\n\n It was bad then, the weekend was bad. During the week there’s action going on. On Saturday I’d go down and work half a day till 1:00. I’d be occupied until about 1:00 on Saturday, then there would be nothing to do for the rest of the weekend. It seemed like everything in California closes down on Sunday. You get that big thick Los Angeles newspaper— [I] really wasn’t interested in a lot of the local news—the weekends were terrible. It was almost like you’d been overseas and coming home for the next six weeks. Those six weeks at home went by real fast.

[Assistant] Did you play a role in closing out the test stands out in California?

[User] No, I didn’t. I guess it got to the point where they felt like they could do all the testing they needed at Stennis. There used to be a lot of action on the A-3 test stand, up on the hill, as they called it, or Santa Susana.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about some of those tests? How long did they last?

[User] A normal flight is 520 seconds, or eight and a half minutes. We didn’t very often run tests that were less than that. An abort type test was more than 800 seconds. It was about half again of what a normal flight would be. I remember one time down at Stennis, J. R. Thompson and I were down there, and they ran a single engine continuous back-to-back abort test. They ran that engine for almost 30 minutes. It seemed like it was never going to come to the end of the test.

[Assistant] I bet you were biting your nails.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t. I guess it got to the point where they felt like they could do all the testing they needed at Stennis. There used to be a lot of action on the A-3 test stand, up on the hill, as they called it, or Santa Susana.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about some of those tests? How long did they last?

[User] A normal flight is 520 seconds, or eight and a half minutes. We didn’t very often run tests that were less than that. An abort type test was more than 800 seconds. It was about half again of what a normal flight would be. I remember one time down at Stennis, J. R. Thompson and I were down there, and they ran a single engine continuous back-to-back abort test. They ran that engine for almost 30 minutes. It seemed like it was never going to come to the end of the test.

[Assistant] I bet you were biting your nails.

[User] Yes. One thing that surprises a lot of people about the SSME is that each of those engines burns 1,000 pounds of propellants a second. When you combust hydrogen and oxygen, the exhaust is water vapor. So when they run a test, there’ll be a big cloud of exhausted water vapor. If the wind conditions were right, and the cloud of vapor floated over you, it would condense because it was cooler in the atmosphere than the exhaust, and it would pour down rain on you. We got wet once in a while.

[Assistant] I thought we would also talk about your time as manager of the Space Shuttle Main Engine Project, which you accepted in 1997. I did a little research, and I noted that the Block IIA engine was flown the next year. Can you tell us at what stage the Block IIA engine was when you accepted the position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The highest temperature of any major part in the engine is the turbine blades on the high pressure fuel pump. You’re operating fairly close to the limit and they’re glowing red; they’re operating around 1,000 degrees or a little more. Those turbine blades are very high temperature super alloys that contain nickel, chromium, and cobalt.

[Assistant] The new turbopump, was that tested on the E-8 test stand?

[User] It was tested on the A-1 or A-2 stands at Stennis. I think they’d already closed A-3.

[Assistant] And they were subjected to the same type of test that you conducted earlier in the program, the 520 [seconds]?

[User] Yes. We ran the complete certification test series, plus we imposed the fleet leader requirement. We used to test regularly at all three test stands. I remember one failure we had at Canoga Park where the engine actually burned itself out of the test stand, bounced down the flame bucket, and then bounced down the canyon for a ways. An engine accident is spectacular. One thing that we used in testing was cameras that have speeds (frames per second) that are tremendous. When you have an accident you look at the frames: frame by frame. There’ll be one frame, where the engine will look perfect and the next frame you can’t see anything because of steam and smoke and fire. When they go, they usually go pretty quick. Sometime, though, the film will show the approximate location of the failure, which is very helpful in determining the cause of the failure.

[Assistant] How did the [Block] II engine operate the first time you flew it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was tested on the A-1 or A-2 stands at Stennis. I think they’d already closed A-3.

[Assistant] And they were subjected to the same type of test that you conducted earlier in the program, the 520 [seconds]?

[User] Yes. We ran the complete certification test series, plus we imposed the fleet leader requirement. We used to test regularly at all three test stands. I remember one failure we had at Canoga Park where the engine actually burned itself out of the test stand, bounced down the flame bucket, and then bounced down the canyon for a ways. An engine accident is spectacular. One thing that we used in testing was cameras that have speeds (frames per second) that are tremendous. When you have an accident you look at the frames: frame by frame. There’ll be one frame, where the engine will look perfect and the next frame you can’t see anything because of steam and smoke and fire. When they go, they usually go pretty quick. Sometime, though, the film will show the approximate location of the failure, which is very helpful in determining the cause of the failure.

[Assistant] How did the [Block] II engine operate the first time you flew it?

[User] Great. We wanted to fly the new pumps on all three engines.

[Assistant] Yes, I noticed you only flew one. Why was that decision made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We ran the complete certification test series, plus we imposed the fleet leader requirement. We used to test regularly at all three test stands. I remember one failure we had at Canoga Park where the engine actually burned itself out of the test stand, bounced down the flame bucket, and then bounced down the canyon for a ways. An engine accident is spectacular. One thing that we used in testing was cameras that have speeds (frames per second) that are tremendous. When you have an accident you look at the frames: frame by frame. There’ll be one frame, where the engine will look perfect and the next frame you can’t see anything because of steam and smoke and fire. When they go, they usually go pretty quick. Sometime, though, the film will show the approximate location of the failure, which is very helpful in determining the cause of the failure.

[Assistant] How did the [Block] II engine operate the first time you flew it?

[User] Great. We wanted to fly the new pumps on all three engines.

[Assistant] Yes, I noticed you only flew one. Why was that decision made?

[User] It’s was a judgment call by our management.

[Assistant] A safety issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great. We wanted to fly the new pumps on all three engines.

[Assistant] Yes, I noticed you only flew one. Why was that decision made?

[User] It’s was a judgment call by our management.

[Assistant] A safety issue?

[User] Yes, that’s what it was. The SSME team didn’t think it was a safety issue, but management did. We’d have liked to have flown all three. We had tested for all flight conditions on the ground and we thought that it would be safer to fly three of the new, more robust pumps, than flying two of the old pumps which had low damage tolerance.

[Assistant] So it worked exactly like you hoped it would? No changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were still working on it when I was there.

[Assistant] When you left, 2004?

[User] Yes, but they had run it on test stand. They were about ready to incorporate it.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that test program?

[User] They added the vibration sensors at what they thought were the appropriate places on the pumps for measuring the synchronous vibration, and also changed some printed circuit cards in the controller. Then they installed theAHMS on a ground test engine, so as to evaluate its’ performance and to assure that it didn’t create an engine problem elsewhere. When I left, the early test data showed no problems.

[Assistant] I read when you were project manager that the agency grounded the Shuttle fleet because they found cracks in the flow liners of the main engine. Can you talk about that issue and how that was resolved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but they had run it on test stand. They were about ready to incorporate it.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that test program?

[User] They added the vibration sensors at what they thought were the appropriate places on the pumps for measuring the synchronous vibration, and also changed some printed circuit cards in the controller. Then they installed theAHMS on a ground test engine, so as to evaluate its’ performance and to assure that it didn’t create an engine problem elsewhere. When I left, the early test data showed no problems.

[Assistant] I read when you were project manager that the agency grounded the Shuttle fleet because they found cracks in the flow liners of the main engine. Can you talk about that issue and how that was resolved?

[User] The flow liner was transition sheet metal between the propellant supply, which is the external tank, and the engine. They found some cracks in it and they had a big program to deal with that. I always thought they overkilled that problem, because before the interest really focused on it, we knew about it and just welded the cracks. You could inspect for cracks after every flight and then weld the cracks in the sheet metal, the way the sheet metal other places in the pump were welded. It took several flight duration engine runs before the cracks started and the cracks were in a location which was relatively easy to inspect

[Assistant] You said it was a pretty simple fix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They added the vibration sensors at what they thought were the appropriate places on the pumps for measuring the synchronous vibration, and also changed some printed circuit cards in the controller. Then they installed theAHMS on a ground test engine, so as to evaluate its’ performance and to assure that it didn’t create an engine problem elsewhere. When I left, the early test data showed no problems.

[Assistant] I read when you were project manager that the agency grounded the Shuttle fleet because they found cracks in the flow liners of the main engine. Can you talk about that issue and how that was resolved?

[User] The flow liner was transition sheet metal between the propellant supply, which is the external tank, and the engine. They found some cracks in it and they had a big program to deal with that. I always thought they overkilled that problem, because before the interest really focused on it, we knew about it and just welded the cracks. You could inspect for cracks after every flight and then weld the cracks in the sheet metal, the way the sheet metal other places in the pump were welded. It took several flight duration engine runs before the cracks started and the cracks were in a location which was relatively easy to inspect

[Assistant] You said it was a pretty simple fix?

[User] I don’t know. That thing went on so long that it seemed like people were making a career out of it.

[Assistant] Did the Columbia accident [STS-107] have any impact on the SSME Project itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The flow liner was transition sheet metal between the propellant supply, which is the external tank, and the engine. They found some cracks in it and they had a big program to deal with that. I always thought they overkilled that problem, because before the interest really focused on it, we knew about it and just welded the cracks. You could inspect for cracks after every flight and then weld the cracks in the sheet metal, the way the sheet metal other places in the pump were welded. It took several flight duration engine runs before the cracks started and the cracks were in a location which was relatively easy to inspect

[Assistant] You said it was a pretty simple fix?

[User] I don’t know. That thing went on so long that it seemed like people were making a career out of it.

[Assistant] Did the Columbia accident [STS-107] have any impact on the SSME Project itself?

[User] No, I don’t really believe it did. It was mainly aerodynamics and the propensity of the foam to come off. No, I would say that it didn’t have any significant effect on the engine.

[Assistant] In 2004 President [George W.] Bush announced a new Vision for Space Exploration. Did that have any impact on the improvements or upgrades that you were planning on instituting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. That thing went on so long that it seemed like people were making a career out of it.

[Assistant] Did the Columbia accident [STS-107] have any impact on the SSME Project itself?

[User] No, I don’t really believe it did. It was mainly aerodynamics and the propensity of the foam to come off. No, I would say that it didn’t have any significant effect on the engine.

[Assistant] In 2004 President [George W.] Bush announced a new Vision for Space Exploration. Did that have any impact on the improvements or upgrades that you were planning on instituting?

[User] No, not a bit.

[Assistant] You left in 2004. Were there other improvements or updates that were still in the works as you were leaving, to the engines?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t really believe it did. It was mainly aerodynamics and the propensity of the foam to come off. No, I would say that it didn’t have any significant effect on the engine.

[Assistant] In 2004 President [George W.] Bush announced a new Vision for Space Exploration. Did that have any impact on the improvements or upgrades that you were planning on instituting?

[User] No, not a bit.

[Assistant] You left in 2004. Were there other improvements or updates that were still in the works as you were leaving, to the engines?

[User] I’m not sure whether the advanced health monitoring system had been baselined or not. That’s the only thing that I know of that could have been.

[Assistant] I think I’ve exhausted my questions. Are there any other topics that we might have explored that you thought about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not a bit.

[Assistant] You left in 2004. Were there other improvements or updates that were still in the works as you were leaving, to the engines?

[User] I’m not sure whether the advanced health monitoring system had been baselined or not. That’s the only thing that I know of that could have been.

[Assistant] I think I’ve exhausted my questions. Are there any other topics that we might have explored that you thought about?

[User] I don’t think so

[Assistant] Is this your bio [biography] and a copy of your Lessons Learned? Great. Do you mind if I keep this copy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure whether the advanced health monitoring system had been baselined or not. That’s the only thing that I know of that could have been.

[Assistant] I think I’ve exhausted my questions. Are there any other topics that we might have explored that you thought about?

[User] I don’t think so

[Assistant] Is this your bio [biography] and a copy of your Lessons Learned? Great. Do you mind if I keep this copy?

[User] No. You may keep them. The retired SSME Chief Engineer and I give a propulsion course every once in a while. There are some significant differences between the Shuttle requirements and going to Mars or the Moon. So we tried to put out something for the young guys that would not only talk about the problems that we’ve had recently, but also some that we had on Apollo that we didn’t have here. That was one of the propulsion course handouts [demonstrates].

[Assistant] That brings to mind a question. Why did NASA continue to evolve the engine after STS-1? Why spend millions of dollars to enhance the engine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It should. It was a better pump, there should have been less things done to it to make it ready to fly again. But I can’t really say with certainty. The accountability problem had not been recognized and dealt with. Hopefully, lessons learned, such as contained in this document will help to avoid similar problems in the future.

[Assistant] How many times could the new turbopump fly versus the old pump?

[User] I don’t know. The fleet leader program was not going long enough to set lifetimes of parts. The certification testing was used as a basis for the first few flights.

[Assistant] Anything else to add any parting words about the main engines?

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Well, I think we’ve covered everything pretty well, so I thank you very much for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm glad I could be a part of this history. It was a long time ago we began, and we have a long way to go yet, but I think it's an important job.

[Assistant] A very important job, and I'm glad that you can be here to share it with us. I'm looking forward to it.

[User] I hope I can tell you something you don't know already.

[Assistant] I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. There's a lot still to learn about it and a lot to learn from the history to apply to the programs of today.

[User] I think when we piece everybody's history together, we'll all see something new that we didn't realize before, and we'll say, "Gee, I didn't realize that happened because of this," and we'll probably put together a whole lot of other things that we have been curious about for a long time.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And everyone always has a different perspective on the same situation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope I can tell you something you don't know already.

[Assistant] I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. There's a lot still to learn about it and a lot to learn from the history to apply to the programs of today.

[User] I think when we piece everybody's history together, we'll all see something new that we didn't realize before, and we'll say, "Gee, I didn't realize that happened because of this," and we'll probably put together a whole lot of other things that we have been curious about for a long time.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And everyone always has a different perspective on the same situation.

[User] Kind of like a jigsaw puzzle. Finally we'll have the whole picture.

[Assistant] And it's a big picture, so many different parts that come in to make it all happen. One of those parts, to begin with, if you could tell us how you got interested in aviation and then moving into the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't, but I heard about them later. I guess it would have been nice if I had at the time, but we were so busy focusing outward on that, that we didn't focus much on the inward things. It was really a unique time in the world's history for four days.

[Assistant] Very unique. Very unique.\n\n Mentioning Apollo 11 and that same bringing everyone together, do you recall where you were and what you were doing when they landed on the Moon?

[User] Yes, I do. I wasn't at the Cape on that particular day. I had been at most of the launches, but I had come back and I was starting to work on Apollo 13 already. Apollo 13 was sort of standing down for the Apollo 11 launch, I guess. Anyway, I was back here. I watched it from mission control, and I also watched it from home. Of course, we lived in El Lago, just a block away from Neil [A.] Armstrong, and his family was absolutely immersed in the news media. They were all around the house. They had the trucks and the big satellite booms, and it was just a madhouse around Neil's house for at least a couple days. We watched it from here rather than elsewhere.

[Assistant] Well, this is a good place to watch from.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] It certainly is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do. I wasn't at the Cape on that particular day. I had been at most of the launches, but I had come back and I was starting to work on Apollo 13 already. Apollo 13 was sort of standing down for the Apollo 11 launch, I guess. Anyway, I was back here. I watched it from mission control, and I also watched it from home. Of course, we lived in El Lago, just a block away from Neil [A.] Armstrong, and his family was absolutely immersed in the news media. They were all around the house. They had the trucks and the big satellite booms, and it was just a madhouse around Neil's house for at least a couple days. We watched it from here rather than elsewhere.

[Assistant] Well, this is a good place to watch from.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] It certainly is.

[User] I came to the office every day and worked just like normally, but kept tabs on the mission like everyone else and went over to mission control periodically and checked in on what was going on. It was just a heady, absolutely marvelous time. It was a great time to be part of the space program.

[Assistant] You certainly got to see some very unique events throughout your career with the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] It certainly is.

[User] I came to the office every day and worked just like normally, but kept tabs on the mission like everyone else and went over to mission control periodically and checked in on what was going on. It was just a heady, absolutely marvelous time. It was a great time to be part of the space program.

[Assistant] You certainly got to see some very unique events throughout your career with the space program.

[User] I'm a very fortunate person.

[Assistant] And we're fortunate that you're sharing those memories with us.\n\n You had mentioned that when you first came into the Apollo program that the idea was Apollo would continue on, would have these longer missions. You even mentioned the reconnaissance mission that you initially began doing some work on. At what point during your time on the support crews and working as Capcom, at what point did you realize that Apollo 17 was going to mean the end of the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's fun to do, because you only do it for a day or two and then you go do something else. At that time I had about six different jobs. This was in the late eighties. I worked with the European Space Agency quite a bit, too, helped train their German astronauts, helped with the Hermes Space Shuttle that they were designing. They didn't have any astronauts who had an operational or a piloting role. They were all scientist-type people or pilots who had gone along in a non-flying role. So we've had an opportunity to contribute in a little way, anyway, and had fun doing it.

[Assistant] That's one of the important things. You should always be fortunate enough to enjoy what you're doing.

[User] Well, you need to go home and get well. The rest of us need to go home and get dinner.

[Assistant] Go home and visit with your family.\n\n Well, thank you for doing this.

[User] Not at all. We can either continue on some other time or not. Don't be afraid to decide not too. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm glad to contribute how I can.

[Assistant] Providing all goes well with the project, we'd certainly love to follow up because there definitely are areas that we weren't able to get to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. We can either continue on some other time or not. Don't be afraid to decide not too. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm glad to contribute how I can.

[Assistant] Providing all goes well with the project, we'd certainly love to follow up because there definitely are areas that we weren't able to get to.

[User] We got through Skylab pretty much.

[Assistant] Pretty much.

[User] There's ASTP, and then there's the Skylab rescue and the Shuttle, Space Station.

[Assistant] And we would like to talk to you on some of your consulting work because that certainly is applicable for today's work, definitely. We can visit it on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got through Skylab pretty much.

[Assistant] Pretty much.

[User] There's ASTP, and then there's the Skylab rescue and the Shuttle, Space Station.

[Assistant] And we would like to talk to you on some of your consulting work because that certainly is applicable for today's work, definitely. We can visit it on that.

[User] Make another session. Okay.

[Assistant] It'll take a few weeks to get all of this put together for you. It'll probably take about six weeks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? Yeah. So I went to Teachers College and, you know, I'll never know who that woman was, but her competence in finding my file and whoever made that decision changed my life, you know. And it was one of those stories that had it not been, I don't know where I'd be.

[Assistant] So you got deferred from the military.

[User] I got deferred and I went and went to Columbia University. And I guess it was about September, beginning.

[Assistant] And you were trained at Teachers College.

[User] We were trained at Teachers College, and they had, you know, the series of things.

[Assistant] So was, the whole was secondary, what was it? Secondary school teachers or what were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were trained at Teachers College, and they had, you know, the series of things.

[Assistant] So was, the whole was secondary, what was it? Secondary school teachers or what were you?

[User] Yeah, they were all secondary school and they mixed Uganda and Kenya groups together and we stayed at the Hotel Paris. Yeah.

[Assistant] Same place.

[User] Same place?

[Assistant] On 97th Street and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they were all secondary school and they mixed Uganda and Kenya groups together and we stayed at the Hotel Paris. Yeah.

[Assistant] Same place.

[User] Same place?

[Assistant] On 97th Street and.

[User] And it's still there I think.

[Assistant] West End Avenue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And, um, it was during the blackout too, when I was there, which was a wild time. But it was quite an experience because they had both countries and I'm guessing, I'm trying to remember the exact number, but maybe it was three. Let's say it was in the ballpark of 300 people were in the combined class.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User]
It was a very big class. But halfway through it they had the de-, the first deselection process, which was cruelty beyond belief. They would hand people two, one of two envelopes, a yellow or a blue, and people with the one color stayed in that room. The other color went down the hall. And simultaneously everybody opened it up. And you either heard screaming of joy that it said, congratulations, you will continue. Or it said, we regret to inform you that we cannot continue your training as a Peace Corps volunteer. And my coming from this little town of Bethlehem and being in the presence, and going to Moravian and being the presence of people from Harvard and Stanford and Michigan and everything. And I saw them blowing away. I didn't know what was going on. It was like, wow, why? Why me? Except I loved it.

And, you know, they also had at that time psychologists doing reviews that was like out of a movie. They'd even take you into a dark room and lie you on a bed and ask you what your family structure was, all that crap. And I did a volunteer job at Bellevue Hospital, which was at the time when LSD patients were there.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Young kid, and I was in the children's ward. Oh my God. I was involved with art therapy to try to extract from these students what, what was in their brain. And some of them had reenacted Psycho. One kid had killed his mother walking up the stairs with a knife. I mean, a young girl tried jumping off a roof and, you know, just weird stuff. Again, coming from Bethlehem, I didn't know where I was.

[Assistant] This was part of Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was a very big class. But halfway through it they had the de-, the first deselection process, which was cruelty beyond belief. They would hand people two, one of two envelopes, a yellow or a blue, and people with the one color stayed in that room. The other color went down the hall. And simultaneously everybody opened it up. And you either heard screaming of joy that it said, congratulations, you will continue. Or it said, we regret to inform you that we cannot continue your training as a Peace Corps volunteer. And my coming from this little town of Bethlehem and being in the presence, and going to Moravian and being the presence of people from Harvard and Stanford and Michigan and everything. And I saw them blowing away. I didn't know what was going on. It was like, wow, why? Why me? Except I loved it.

And, you know, they also had at that time psychologists doing reviews that was like out of a movie. They'd even take you into a dark room and lie you on a bed and ask you what your family structure was, all that crap. And I did a volunteer job at Bellevue Hospital, which was at the time when LSD patients were there.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Young kid, and I was in the children's ward. Oh my God. I was involved with art therapy to try to extract from these students what, what was in their brain. And some of them had reenacted Psycho. One kid had killed his mother walking up the stairs with a knife. I mean, a young girl tried jumping off a roof and, you know, just weird stuff. Again, coming from Bethlehem, I didn't know where I was.

[Assistant] This was part of Peace Corps?

[User] This was part of my training.

[Assistant] I mean, you were, oh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Young kid, and I was in the children's ward. Oh my God. I was involved with art therapy to try to extract from these students what, what was in their brain. And some of them had reenacted Psycho. One kid had killed his mother walking up the stairs with a knife. I mean, a young girl tried jumping off a roof and, you know, just weird stuff. Again, coming from Bethlehem, I didn't know where I was.

[Assistant] This was part of Peace Corps?

[User] This was part of my training.

[Assistant] I mean, you were, oh.

[User] Yeah. We had to do projects. And then I taught at one of the public high schools around 97th Street, where they told me, Russell, you teach science and stay on this first floor. Don't go down into the basement where the lockers are. Just stay away from that.

[Assistant] So you were both at Bell, you said, at Bellevue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was part of my training.

[Assistant] I mean, you were, oh.

[User] Yeah. We had to do projects. And then I taught at one of the public high schools around 97th Street, where they told me, Russell, you teach science and stay on this first floor. Don't go down into the basement where the lockers are. Just stay away from that.

[Assistant] So you were both at Bell, you said, at Bellevue?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Yeah, Bellevue and taught in the local school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We had to do projects. And then I taught at one of the public high schools around 97th Street, where they told me, Russell, you teach science and stay on this first floor. Don't go down into the basement where the lockers are. Just stay away from that.

[Assistant] So you were both at Bell, you said, at Bellevue?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Yeah, Bellevue and taught in the local school.

[User] The Bellevue was sort of like a public service kind of a component, to try to get you exposed to, I guess, their idea of real world identity. Well, it was real world. I didn't realize it was going to be people whacked out.

[Assistant] It was probably more of a culture shock than Kenya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Yeah, Bellevue and taught in the local school.

[User] The Bellevue was sort of like a public service kind of a component, to try to get you exposed to, I guess, their idea of real world identity. Well, it was real world. I didn't realize it was going to be people whacked out.

[Assistant] It was probably more of a culture shock than Kenya.

[User] It was something else. I mean, I never saw any, well, it taught, it certainly convinced me that I wasn't going to take drugs. I mean, my father was always anti-drug, obviously, being a surgeon and, you know, seeing that. But seeing these kids, I mean, it was just unbelievable. And it wasn't like one or two. I mean, it was a whole ward of these young people and they were like anywhere from nine, ten years old up to like sixteen.

[Assistant] And they had all taken drugs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Bellevue was sort of like a public service kind of a component, to try to get you exposed to, I guess, their idea of real world identity. Well, it was real world. I didn't realize it was going to be people whacked out.

[Assistant] It was probably more of a culture shock than Kenya.

[User] It was something else. I mean, I never saw any, well, it taught, it certainly convinced me that I wasn't going to take drugs. I mean, my father was always anti-drug, obviously, being a surgeon and, you know, seeing that. But seeing these kids, I mean, it was just unbelievable. And it wasn't like one or two. I mean, it was a whole ward of these young people and they were like anywhere from nine, ten years old up to like sixteen.

[Assistant] And they had all taken drugs?

[User] They all taken drugs. And LSD was the most prominent at that particular moment. So given all that, you know, we went through and then they had a second deselection process. So I think the final whittling down of this 300 was to a level of maybe 120, and of those maybe 40 went to Uganda and 80 went to Kenya. But we were all teachers, that was the common denominator of the training program and that's why we had gone to Columbia.

[Assistant] Do you think the training helped prepare you for Kenya, language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was something else. I mean, I never saw any, well, it taught, it certainly convinced me that I wasn't going to take drugs. I mean, my father was always anti-drug, obviously, being a surgeon and, you know, seeing that. But seeing these kids, I mean, it was just unbelievable. And it wasn't like one or two. I mean, it was a whole ward of these young people and they were like anywhere from nine, ten years old up to like sixteen.

[Assistant] And they had all taken drugs?

[User] They all taken drugs. And LSD was the most prominent at that particular moment. So given all that, you know, we went through and then they had a second deselection process. So I think the final whittling down of this 300 was to a level of maybe 120, and of those maybe 40 went to Uganda and 80 went to Kenya. But we were all teachers, that was the common denominator of the training program and that's why we had gone to Columbia.

[Assistant] Do you think the training helped prepare you for Kenya, language training?

[User] I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, you know, I'm not good in languages. I hadn't done well in French in college or, I took Latin and that was even worse. But, um. You know, I diligently had a little notebook, wrote down phrases. I tried to do it.

[Assistant] You learned Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said, I don't care where it is. I'm here for two years. Use me. He says, so you want to go to some place I can't get anybody? Well, do I have the place for you. And it was almost like a joke. We started laughing and he said, I'm going to send you up to our furthest school in Kenya in Marsabit because I can't get anyone to go there and particularly to teach biology, chemistry, and physics. And it was like, oh my God, what a blessing. So he authorized it. He contacted the Peace Corps. They contacted me. And he also let the teacher know. The teacher, the headmaster at my school, seemed very happy about that, you know.

[Assistant] He wanted to get rid of you anyway.

[User] I think he wanted to get rid of me anyway. So, um, that was it. And by that time, because I was a little bit lonely, I had bought a small baboon. I had my own monkey. And in Swahili, the word for. Well, its name was Kanini. So I took Kanini and myself and my, my, two, my one suitcase and whatever else I had and got on the bus and went to Isiolo.

[Assistant] How far is that?

[User] Well, from Marsabit to, from, no, from Kitui to Isiolo was about a two hour ride in itself. But the thing was at that point it was when the shifta were shooting convoy, shooting people all over in that northern frontier district, because it was a conflict between Somalia, Ethiopia, and Kenya for the property, or for the territory.

[Assistant] And just to say, the shifta were what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So, you know, the whole experience just getting there was something else. And then when you got there, you're on this desert and you look ahead and here's this spectacular green mountain, which was the northern frontier district area, and Marsabit at the top. And back in the thirties and forties I guess, someone named Osa Johnson had done a movie up there about Lake Paradise, which was a beautiful lake in, crater lake, in the top of the mountain where elephants and other animals were. And the town was down a little below that. And it was made up of all these tribal people. And the students who I taught were all from that area or from down country. Many of them were nomadic.

So we actually adjusted the schedule of the school to relate to the rains because when it rained, then they had to bring the cattle and the, the goats and the camels and anything else they had up the mountain because it was too wet down below. So that's when we had the school.

[Assistant] So you were the first Peace Corps volunteer there I guess?

[User] I wasn't.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] You know, there was one there before for a short time, and it was never clear to me. I kept asking about it and they kept saying, yes, Mr. Johnson or somebody like that was here. And he was there for about a year. And then I don't know what happened. And I asked once or twice back in Nairobi, and no one seemed to know. So I don't know. But there was.

[Assistant] Maybe he got lonely.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they sent it over to Kenya and then I could get it sent up to my place with a police airplane. They would bring it up. Other people couldn't get any of this stuff at all. But, man, I could get the police airplane. And I could even get rides back and forth on it. I mean, it became, it was still part of that old British, you know, because the police, most of them were still Brits and certainly all the pilots were Brits.

[Assistant] Hmm. Even the police were Brits?

[User] Yeah, most of them were still because it was only, what was independence, '61. And this is. There were, there were definitely African police people on the ground, but the ones who flew up were more higher level in the system, you know, the local.

[Assistant] So they gave you a ride back to Nairobi?

[User] I could go back and forth if I needed to go back and forth.

[Assistant] To Nairobi or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, most of them were still because it was only, what was independence, '61. And this is. There were, there were definitely African police people on the ground, but the ones who flew up were more higher level in the system, you know, the local.

[Assistant] So they gave you a ride back to Nairobi?

[User] I could go back and forth if I needed to go back and forth.

[Assistant] To Nairobi or?

[User] To Nairobi. Yeah. And so that made a little bit of a difference. I did that on vacations. But anyway, I started up, I started teaching. Um. We got some money, and then it turned out that was when they built a science lab, and we had.

[Assistant] This was Kenyan money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could go back and forth if I needed to go back and forth.

[Assistant] To Nairobi or?

[User] To Nairobi. Yeah. And so that made a little bit of a difference. I did that on vacations. But anyway, I started up, I started teaching. Um. We got some money, and then it turned out that was when they built a science lab, and we had.

[Assistant] This was Kenyan money?

[User] Yeah, yeah. They put, they built a whole building with a science lab and propane gas jets. I mean, just, it was, it was really nice. And the bizarre thing is just imagine this. Here these are nomadic kids who have never, you know, rarely seen electricity. I'm having to teach them magnetism to pass this exam. I mean, what a conflict in my mind. Why am I teaching magnetism? But it was their one chance to get out of this cycle. And I used to, I mean, it got sort of a little bit foolish at times, but I'd, I'd take a magnet and sort of put it underneath a table and put some metal chips on top as a way to sort of. I'd move it around and they'd see it. And I'd joke and say, voodoo. Voodoo, you like that?

[Assistant] And you taught in English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Form. Thank you. Fourth form first and then the fifth form in my second year. And then they asked me, the headmaster said, would you stay one more year? Because to get to the Cambridge you have to do the sixth form and bringing in a new teacher and everything, the students felt that that might not be to their advantage. And obviously I was very interested because the war was still going on. And so that meant another year of deferment because I had heard some people had gone back from the Peace Corps and then got drafted. Oh my God. It was like, uhh. So I couldn't have been more thrilled that they did that. And so I stayed the extra year and I took that, that group through.

[Assistant] And did they pass the Cambridge?

[User] I'm telling you, it was more than thrilling. More than thrilling. They, they easily. It was over 50 percent had passed the actual Cambridge in these courses.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And I'll tell you about some of the graduates. I mean, it's freaky, but, you know, I just.

[Assistant] So were they, just backing, where they prepared? You got them for science.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm telling you, it was more than thrilling. More than thrilling. They, they easily. It was over 50 percent had passed the actual Cambridge in these courses.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And I'll tell you about some of the graduates. I mean, it's freaky, but, you know, I just.

[Assistant] So were they, just backing, where they prepared? You got them for science.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they know basic math and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'll tell you about some of the graduates. I mean, it's freaky, but, you know, I just.

[Assistant] So were they, just backing, where they prepared? You got them for science.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they know basic math and?

[User] Yeah, they had gone through primary school and they knew, they all spoke good English.

[Assistant] Had gone there? Oh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they know basic math and?

[User] Yeah, they had gone through primary school and they knew, they all spoke good English.

[Assistant] Had gone there? Oh.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. They all spoke decent English.

[Assistant] So was this a selective school or could anybody go to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they had gone through primary school and they knew, they all spoke good English.

[Assistant] Had gone there? Oh.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. They all spoke decent English.

[Assistant] So was this a selective school or could anybody go to it?

[User] I think anybody could go to it as long as they could get accepted in there.

[Assistant] Well, accepted means it's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think anybody could go to it as long as they could get accepted in there.

[Assistant] Well, accepted means it's.

[User] And I don't know what the criteria, and some it may have been political. I'm sure it was, you know, someone whose parents were known.

[Assistant] Connected, yeah.

[User] Um, I don't think they. This was all paid by the government. So they didn't pay something themselves that I was aware of.

[Assistant] Well, they had to get there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don't know what the criteria, and some it may have been political. I'm sure it was, you know, someone whose parents were known.

[Assistant] Connected, yeah.

[User] Um, I don't think they. This was all paid by the government. So they didn't pay something themselves that I was aware of.

[Assistant] Well, they had to get there.

[User] They had to.

[Assistant] And then did they live in dorms?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had to.

[Assistant] And then did they live in dorms?

[User] Yeah, they lived in dorms. Yeah, it was a boarding school in the formal. We only had two girls and they stayed in a dorm with one of the female teachers, but all the rest were in our regular one. And it went, yeah, I can't. I can't remember how many total students there were. But in this picture of the class there may have been 40 or so in that grade, in the sixth form. Yeah. Coming up to that level. Now, some left along the way but not that many. And so I would, I took them through this exam. We did the practical parts, we did the written everything. I even had outside the, uh, the lab built a botanical garden because there was a whole section on botany and we could get the plants and grow them and then have the specimens ready for them to do. I mean, it was, it was like really fun.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] I enjoyed, you know, and I was the only American up there. My nearest American colleague was down in Meru almost 200 miles away so.

[Assistant] Did that bother you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they lived in dorms. Yeah, it was a boarding school in the formal. We only had two girls and they stayed in a dorm with one of the female teachers, but all the rest were in our regular one. And it went, yeah, I can't. I can't remember how many total students there were. But in this picture of the class there may have been 40 or so in that grade, in the sixth form. Yeah. Coming up to that level. Now, some left along the way but not that many. And so I would, I took them through this exam. We did the practical parts, we did the written everything. I even had outside the, uh, the lab built a botanical garden because there was a whole section on botany and we could get the plants and grow them and then have the specimens ready for them to do. I mean, it was, it was like really fun.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] I enjoyed, you know, and I was the only American up there. My nearest American colleague was down in Meru almost 200 miles away so.

[Assistant] Did that bother you?

[User] No, I loved it. Maybe it's my, it obviously is my character. But, um, I was in a point in life where I enjoyed just seeing what I could do on my own. And I never liked the idea of going back, a lot of volunteers would go back on weekends to Nairobi, and I don't know if they'd bitch and moan or drank. I don't know. I just had a great time. I mean, students would take me out.

[Assistant] Did you make any friends among the teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I loved it. Maybe it's my, it obviously is my character. But, um, I was in a point in life where I enjoyed just seeing what I could do on my own. And I never liked the idea of going back, a lot of volunteers would go back on weekends to Nairobi, and I don't know if they'd bitch and moan or drank. I don't know. I just had a great time. I mean, students would take me out.

[Assistant] Did you make any friends among the teachers?

[User] Oh, absolutely. In fact, I just got an email this morning from one.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] He's still there. Yeah. A Pakistani.

[Assistant] Still teaching in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. In fact, I just got an email this morning from one.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] He's still there. Yeah. A Pakistani.

[Assistant] Still teaching in?

[User] Well, he's retired, but he's still living. The school gave him his house as a retirement present until he dies. And but he's my age and he's still doing very well.

[Assistant] That's great. A Pakistani?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's still there. Yeah. A Pakistani.

[Assistant] Still teaching in?

[User] Well, he's retired, but he's still living. The school gave him his house as a retirement present until he dies. And but he's my age and he's still doing very well.

[Assistant] That's great. A Pakistani?

[User] A Pakistani.

[Assistant] So there were foreign teachers besides you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A Pakistani.

[Assistant] So there were foreign teachers besides you?

[User] Well, he was Pakistani from Kenya.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] They, they had brought a lot of Indians and Pakistanis over to the railroad and blah, blah, blah, in the forties.

[Assistant] And so he was Kenyan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's better, it was better than the school.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User]
So, you know, and I got to see a whole lot of things in a different way that I had never, I mean, I was totally dependent on myself. If I wasn't motivated, there was no one there who was going to push me. And I, if I took chances, I had to think them through. I mean, I suddenly was, I mean, the great thing about this Peace Corps experience was it gave me a chance to see who I was. I didn't realize it at the time. I mean, it wasn't a conscious, who are you? But as I look back on it, I, for whatever reason, I thought this was a great opportunity to experiment and to do as much as.

I guess I also had a bit of a guilt feeling not going to Vietnam and feeling that, you know I should do as much as I can to help other people. I had a terrible experience just before I went into the Peace Corps that I'd broken up with a girlfriend and she, back in Bethlehem, married a guy. And sure enough, they got married and he got drafted in the Peace Corps [sic]. And two months later she came to my door crying. He had been killed. And I just said, oh my God, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I've been thankful ever since. And even if it is out of guilt, I'm happy I did it.

[Assistant] Well, did you get any support from Peace Corps while you were up there? Did anybody come and help you with teaching or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't going to sit in a bus and go around and see a game park in a public bus. So I had to, and yet we couldn't drive, or have a car rather. But sure enough, I don't know how it was, but we met some, this other Peace Corps volunteer and I, the closest one who was 250 miles away. He and I had gone down to Nairobi and we had, I guess, just taken a little trip somewhere. Well, no, we took the trip to, uh, Kilimanjaro. And when we were on there, we had a group of maybe ten of us, and two of those were Brits who had a car.

[Assistant] So you got to know them.

[User] And we got to know them. And that was the beginning of a long relationship. And they were teachers as well, which was good. We were all in the same cycle of, you know, time periods. And I, the climbing Kilimanjaro was, I never thought I'd do it, and I did and.

[Assistant] Really hard?

[User] Oh, just a killer. I'm not, I wasn't a, you know, I was not even a climber. I was hardly a walker. And this was like a, you know, four days up and three days down. And even with people carrying all your supplies, you know, the lack of oxygen and it got cold. And that last day, you get up at 3:00 in the morning and you'd go up this slag zigzagging up to the top. People were peeling off. They couldn't make it. You know, this good friend of mine, he just had to give up and I just couldn't. And I had a guide who kept saying, keep going, it's not that far. And when we finally got up, they take you up early in the morning so that you can see the sun rise, and oh my God, over the Amboseli. It was crystal clear. We're up there with the, uh, the snow and the ice and everything. And it just, yeah, very, very dramatic.

[Assistant] It's worth it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we got to know them. And that was the beginning of a long relationship. And they were teachers as well, which was good. We were all in the same cycle of, you know, time periods. And I, the climbing Kilimanjaro was, I never thought I'd do it, and I did and.

[Assistant] Really hard?

[User] Oh, just a killer. I'm not, I wasn't a, you know, I was not even a climber. I was hardly a walker. And this was like a, you know, four days up and three days down. And even with people carrying all your supplies, you know, the lack of oxygen and it got cold. And that last day, you get up at 3:00 in the morning and you'd go up this slag zigzagging up to the top. People were peeling off. They couldn't make it. You know, this good friend of mine, he just had to give up and I just couldn't. And I had a guide who kept saying, keep going, it's not that far. And when we finally got up, they take you up early in the morning so that you can see the sun rise, and oh my God, over the Amboseli. It was crystal clear. We're up there with the, uh, the snow and the ice and everything. And it just, yeah, very, very dramatic.

[Assistant] It's worth it.

[User] Oh, absolutely. So we came down, we did that, and then we took another trip with the people through Amboseli to see the animals and all that. But then we also stopped where Leakey in Olduvai Gorge, and that's when Leakey was alive. So he's there and we're.

[Assistant] You met Leakey?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. So we came down, we did that, and then we took another trip with the people through Amboseli to see the animals and all that. But then we also stopped where Leakey in Olduvai Gorge, and that's when Leakey was alive. So he's there and we're.

[Assistant] You met Leakey?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. So we were able to go and see, you know, stuff like that. It was wild. I mean, you know. And the funny thing was, the more I learned about how you can push and get to see things, the more I did. I mean, it was like I was hungry to learn how to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then the biggest one we did was we all decided, okay, now we're really going to branch out. And we had a vacation and we decided we'd go down to South Africa. And there were four of us in a VW, little Volkswagen mini thing. You know, the bug. Oh my God. With a roof rack and our tent on top. And the thing was almost hitting the ground. So we drive down to.

[Assistant] That's a long drive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. So we were able to go and see, you know, stuff like that. It was wild. I mean, you know. And the funny thing was, the more I learned about how you can push and get to see things, the more I did. I mean, it was like I was hungry to learn how to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then the biggest one we did was we all decided, okay, now we're really going to branch out. And we had a vacation and we decided we'd go down to South Africa. And there were four of us in a VW, little Volkswagen mini thing. You know, the bug. Oh my God. With a roof rack and our tent on top. And the thing was almost hitting the ground. So we drive down to.

[Assistant] That's a long drive.

[User] Oh my God. You have no idea. We drove first into Tanzania, then we went into Malawi. Then we went down and into Mozambique. And then we came back and over into Rhodesia. And from Rhodesia we went down to Durban, South Africa, and then drove back. And when we were in Mozambique, it was just before Christmas, it was the Christmas holiday, and there was this guy at the border of, then it was Rhodesia and Ian Smith was head of it. This guy was there, a young fellow hitchhiking. We thought, well, what the heck, you know, we'll take one more. And it turned out to be the son of the Supreme Court justice in Rhodesia. And he says, where are you going? We're going to Rhodesia, you know. What's the capital of Rhodesia?

[Assistant]
Harare? No. It's Zimbabwe.

Well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then the biggest one we did was we all decided, okay, now we're really going to branch out. And we had a vacation and we decided we'd go down to South Africa. And there were four of us in a VW, little Volkswagen mini thing. You know, the bug. Oh my God. With a roof rack and our tent on top. And the thing was almost hitting the ground. So we drive down to.

[Assistant] That's a long drive.

[User] Oh my God. You have no idea. We drove first into Tanzania, then we went into Malawi. Then we went down and into Mozambique. And then we came back and over into Rhodesia. And from Rhodesia we went down to Durban, South Africa, and then drove back. And when we were in Mozambique, it was just before Christmas, it was the Christmas holiday, and there was this guy at the border of, then it was Rhodesia and Ian Smith was head of it. This guy was there, a young fellow hitchhiking. We thought, well, what the heck, you know, we'll take one more. And it turned out to be the son of the Supreme Court justice in Rhodesia. And he says, where are you going? We're going to Rhodesia, you know. What's the capital of Rhodesia?

[Assistant]
Harare? No. It's Zimbabwe.

Well.

[User] Zimbabwe is the country.

[Assistant] It's not Harare? No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh my God. You have no idea. We drove first into Tanzania, then we went into Malawi. Then we went down and into Mozambique. And then we came back and over into Rhodesia. And from Rhodesia we went down to Durban, South Africa, and then drove back. And when we were in Mozambique, it was just before Christmas, it was the Christmas holiday, and there was this guy at the border of, then it was Rhodesia and Ian Smith was head of it. This guy was there, a young fellow hitchhiking. We thought, well, what the heck, you know, we'll take one more. And it turned out to be the son of the Supreme Court justice in Rhodesia. And he says, where are you going? We're going to Rhodesia, you know. What's the capital of Rhodesia?

[Assistant]
Harare? No. It's Zimbabwe.

Well.

[User] Zimbabwe is the country.

[Assistant] It's not Harare? No?

[User] Maybe, you know.

[Assistant] Maybe I'm wrong.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But he's become involved with the, a world organization that takes human rights victims who have been abused and helps to re, reconstruct their face, arms, whatever they've had. And he's become the chairman of the board of the Kenya Red Cross.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And he has done so many things. And he's the one who then was given the, the second Wofford Award.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Isn't it? Just wonderful.

[Assistant] And you were his science teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he has done so many things. And he's the one who then was given the, the second Wofford Award.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Isn't it? Just wonderful.

[Assistant] And you were his science teacher.

[User]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his brother taught. This is so weird. His brother had come over here, not in the same class. His brother never came to Marsabit. He went to some other school, but he ended up at, um, Howard University in their communications division, doing some of their work. And he now, he's retired and lives right out here in, um, Potomac. And then another, but a second student became a doctor and did it by going to, from Nairobi undergraduate to directly to the UK. And he's become an orthopedic surgeon and lives in Frederick. I mean, it's, it's just too weird.

And when I go back to Kenya, a group of us that will all get together and talk. I'll meet them in Nairobi. I've been back several times and it's just, uh, you know, a spectacular experience. While I was over there, as I say, my parents came and I think it deeply, I think it really impacted my parents and my two sisters.

[Assistant] How did it impact them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn't it? Just wonderful.

[Assistant] And you were his science teacher.

[User]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his brother taught. This is so weird. His brother had come over here, not in the same class. His brother never came to Marsabit. He went to some other school, but he ended up at, um, Howard University in their communications division, doing some of their work. And he now, he's retired and lives right out here in, um, Potomac. And then another, but a second student became a doctor and did it by going to, from Nairobi undergraduate to directly to the UK. And he's become an orthopedic surgeon and lives in Frederick. I mean, it's, it's just too weird.

And when I go back to Kenya, a group of us that will all get together and talk. I'll meet them in Nairobi. I've been back several times and it's just, uh, you know, a spectacular experience. While I was over there, as I say, my parents came and I think it deeply, I think it really impacted my parents and my two sisters.

[Assistant] How did it impact them?

[User] I think they, one, they saw how hard the, how difficult the life was for these people. I think they had no clue. I mean, they had, my father had come from a coal region and it was a very poor family. But nothing, nothing like this. I mean, this is poor. They had never eaten camel meat. I mean, I used to eat camel burgers and they'd have to beat it up with cut glass and to get the damn stuff and fatty and all that. But and then I thought they were super impressed with the motivation of these students and their ability to speak English and to communicate. I think, you know, there was an idea, well, these are natives, these are people in the bush. You know, they had no idea. They're African and God knows. Thank God they survived. But no potential.

[Assistant] Didn't know them, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No potential or, you know, that wasn't in their consciousness. Having met them, it was like, holy mackerel. Because some of them said, well, he's a doctor, you know, what? Why did you become a doctor? And they asked my father and he was like, oh my God.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, this is real. And my sisters were there. They were only like 14 and 11. But, you know, the boys flirted with him and then they wanted to dance. Well, they had never danced with any black people. I mean, this was just like, holy mackerel. It was a new world. And they went back totally changed.

[Assistant] Changed.

[User] Totally changed. There's no question in my mind. So I think that was, you know, a wonderful experience for me to see my family change. I enjoyed that, that I saw. I didn't realize my own change. It certainly happened. But I saw my family changed and I saw these students change.

[Assistant] Well, you talked about your change of understanding who you, who you were. Did it change your attitudes towards developing countries or how else did it change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Totally changed. There's no question in my mind. So I think that was, you know, a wonderful experience for me to see my family change. I enjoyed that, that I saw. I didn't realize my own change. It certainly happened. But I saw my family changed and I saw these students change.

[Assistant] Well, you talked about your change of understanding who you, who you were. Did it change your attitudes towards developing countries or how else did it change?

[User] Yeah, I think, um. Well, it changed me in a number of ways. One was certainly understanding developing countries. I had not even been conscious about that. I mean, I know I had read about Africa, like you said, natural, geographical. But I'd never been there. And I hadn't even traveled far out of Bethlehem. And when I was in Bethlehem, it was with my own select group of people.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know. So I was, I was pretty insular. This was like, boom. And the fact that everyone accepted me, I thought was unique. And now I can look back on it. No, I never felt any bias in this, uh, my being white, my being American, at least at that point in time. Everybody looked to America as a, a wonderful place.

[Assistant] Did they talk to you about the Vietnam War?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think, um. Well, it changed me in a number of ways. One was certainly understanding developing countries. I had not even been conscious about that. I mean, I know I had read about Africa, like you said, natural, geographical. But I'd never been there. And I hadn't even traveled far out of Bethlehem. And when I was in Bethlehem, it was with my own select group of people.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know. So I was, I was pretty insular. This was like, boom. And the fact that everyone accepted me, I thought was unique. And now I can look back on it. No, I never felt any bias in this, uh, my being white, my being American, at least at that point in time. Everybody looked to America as a, a wonderful place.

[Assistant] Did they talk to you about the Vietnam War?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. The teachers and I would talk about, well, every morning. Oh, my God. They had this Zenith radio, a massive Zenith radio. And we had a, a generator so that we had electricity certain hours of the day. But the first thing they would do is have a listen to the BBC morning news and, you know, hear the beep, beep, beep. This is the BBC from London and this morning's news, in Vietnam, ba ba ba. And you know, I'd be listening to this and I thought, oh my God. And the students would say, well, why aren't you in Vietnam? Uhh.

[Assistant] And what did you say to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, they, they both equally were committed to this. Um. I think, you know, as I think about myself and the ability of where, where all this is going. I think the Peace Corps, the value of Peace Corps for me has been this tremendous exposure to the world. And the ability to not be, well, I guess the fact I was alone was very good. It's impacted my character, I think, of not believing what other people say and wanting to find out for myself. And I do this even now. If someone reads a review of a new film and they say, well, you know, it's so-so. If I think it might be worth, I'll want to go see it myself. And that that's just who I've become. And I know the Peace Corps experience has pushed me to in that direction, to think about.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Making the decisions myself and not being. And I mean, I'm sure when I was going over from Bethlehem to the Peace Corps, there were people going, oh my God, you're going to Africa, you know, the end of the world. I didn't know. But I was willing to take a chance and go. And I found when I went up to see that person at the, the Education Department, I had no idea. I didn't know. But I was willing to gamble. So that the, the ability to, to, to take ideas that you think are important and risk and explore them is something that the Peace Corps has, has absolutely reinforced in my life. Aside from all these wonderful cultural things. I mean, deep down in as me as a person that I think has been a real.

[Assistant] Really important.

[User] A real value. Yeah. And I enjoy that. I mean, I enjoy, you know, well, you say, I mean, in fact, a good part of my life has been tell me it can't be done and I'll find a way to do it. I mean, to put it in a nutshell, that it would be a, you know. And my wife and I.

[Assistant] Because you've done it before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Making the decisions myself and not being. And I mean, I'm sure when I was going over from Bethlehem to the Peace Corps, there were people going, oh my God, you're going to Africa, you know, the end of the world. I didn't know. But I was willing to take a chance and go. And I found when I went up to see that person at the, the Education Department, I had no idea. I didn't know. But I was willing to gamble. So that the, the ability to, to, to take ideas that you think are important and risk and explore them is something that the Peace Corps has, has absolutely reinforced in my life. Aside from all these wonderful cultural things. I mean, deep down in as me as a person that I think has been a real.

[Assistant] Really important.

[User] A real value. Yeah. And I enjoy that. I mean, I enjoy, you know, well, you say, I mean, in fact, a good part of my life has been tell me it can't be done and I'll find a way to do it. I mean, to put it in a nutshell, that it would be a, you know. And my wife and I.

[Assistant] Because you've done it before.

[User] Hmm?

[Assistant] Because you've done it before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I felt that way with these students. I was going to, no matter what, I was going to help them do well in these exams. Yes, there were a lot of barriers. Yes, we didn't have all the equipment. Yes, we didn't have, they didn't have all the background. Yes, yes, yes. A lot of no's, a lot of negatives. But look at what they've accomplished. And I, I suppose that's, well, it is not I suppose, it is one of the things I feel most proud of in my life that. And I think Peace Corps investing in education is a wonderful thing because it has such a long-term benefit. It just, you know, it just keeps going. And, you know, I can pick up my phone now and I, I'm. Some of them have said, hey, why don't you come up there? We're having this big festival in Lake Turkana in July and, you know, you can come up and we'll go up. Leakey's son now has a place up further and we can go up there. Well, next year I might do that.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] You know, I'd do it in a heartbeat, in a split second. My wife, I don't know. We're getting older. And that's the only other thing, as you get older, you get a little more cautious, you know?

[Assistant] Well, now's the time to do it, while you can.

[User] While I can, that's the way I look at it. But, you know, I think it's, you know, certainly helped me break down barriers that I might have been thinking about. Um. I'd like to believe in the sort of in the bigger world that this is all going to end up with people knowing each other better, understanding each other, and not getting into conflict. Whether that'll happen, I don't know.

[Assistant] One has to keep.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'd do it in a heartbeat, in a split second. My wife, I don't know. We're getting older. And that's the only other thing, as you get older, you get a little more cautious, you know?

[Assistant] Well, now's the time to do it, while you can.

[User] While I can, that's the way I look at it. But, you know, I think it's, you know, certainly helped me break down barriers that I might have been thinking about. Um. I'd like to believe in the sort of in the bigger world that this is all going to end up with people knowing each other better, understanding each other, and not getting into conflict. Whether that'll happen, I don't know.

[Assistant] One has to keep.

[User] I mean, step by step.

[Assistant] One has to keep working on it. I know you're involved with National Peace Corps Association. What have you done with the Peace Corps Association?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
That's it. You know, I'm off and I'm doing, you know, you have to respect that. You know, you can't say, well, Jesus, give back. It doesn't work that way. And on the other hand, the one fellow who lives in Texas. And I said, you know, maybe you'd like to go to this event down in Texas. It's close to you. And he says, well, I'll give it a real good look. So that's as much as I can expect. It's such a heterogeneous group of people. NPCA is trying to herd cats in it's truest sense. I've seen, oh, directors from the beginning. From the beginning, because, I mean, I've been around that long and I've seen it go up and down.

I even formed with some other people a group called Encore, which was to take former Peace Corps volunteers and place them in settings to do, because of their experience now, these would be retired Peace Corps people, and they could go into short term activities and provide a much bigger impact.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] If it was very targeted. Um. We got into competition with Peace Corps, which saw I think some of the same ideas, and they had been Crisis Corps before and we had called it Encore and now they call theirs Peace Corps Response.

[Assistant] Response.

[User] And we ended up merging Encore into that because they had the money. I mean, you know, I was out there with other board members raising money for our group. And, you know, we raised a couple of hundred thousand dollars but.

[Assistant] It's a good idea. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Through training and all kinds and very focused. And plus it would cost much less. The security would be less. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well. I personally think that the, that they're influenced by the political side of the budget. And they think, you know, if we do that and it is less, someone will say, well, why don't we cut back on the funding?

[Assistant] Even more.

[User] And reduce Peace Corps funding. Because they could do more on this virtual side and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't quite buy that. I understand that there are people in Congress who would say that, but I think they could get a bigger bang for the buck. So I've pushed a couple of times. The other day at that event, Jody sat next to me and I said, you know, what about this virtual stuff, don't you think? She says, yeah, Russ, but, you know, ba ba ba ba. And lo and behold, about three weeks ago, I suddenly saw a flier come out from Peace Corps talking about, they didn't use the word. Well, actually, I guess they did. Virtual support through Response Corps. They're going to have selective assignments where people could do things electronically in this, you know, whether it's a teacher here trying to upgrade teachers in a country by giving them. But that would be a Response Corps capacity. And I jokingly said to someone on the staff over there, well, so we're breaking through a little bit. And they said, well, yeah, that seemed like one way we could.

[Assistant] Well, some of it starts and.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] As a supplement, that's not the same thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or whatever. And this woman had done well with 14 young women, but there are 2,000 of them in the same category. And so I ask her, you know, what are you going to do? And she says, well, I don't know. Well, I'd like to expand it, but I don't have anyone to help me think through how do you take an idea, someone jokingly said, and sort of expand it sort of like a franchise. And in a sense, it would be somewhat like that. Well, I'm sure there are people who are in the social services who have that sort of cut on their ability to. They could do that. And that would be the kind of thing I would like to see happen, you know, pursue some of those things. And not, I just happen to think of it in the health field, but it could be small business. It could be women's development. I mean, you just. Agriculture.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] My, my nephew, my son, my, my son. My brother-in-law was going to go in to do something. He's, he's an expert in herbicides for fruit trees. And he could help people anywhere in the world with guidance. He's sometimes a little short on the emotional side, but he could. If it was a video thing, he could easily say, let's look at this and why don't you try this and let's get back next week or in a month. Anyway. I think that that's, I think that's a potential using technology. And I'm going to be. [phone rings] Let me. Sorry, I.

[Assistant] That's okay. We're, we're just about done there. Well, it sounds like you've really stayed on, on task, on mission.

[User] Well, I've, I've tried. I, you know, at one point, I actually several times had talked about, do I want to consider being a country director? And when I saw friends of mine who were, I said no. It has changed so much.

[Assistant] We've talked about that as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My, my nephew, my son, my, my son. My brother-in-law was going to go in to do something. He's, he's an expert in herbicides for fruit trees. And he could help people anywhere in the world with guidance. He's sometimes a little short on the emotional side, but he could. If it was a video thing, he could easily say, let's look at this and why don't you try this and let's get back next week or in a month. Anyway. I think that that's, I think that's a potential using technology. And I'm going to be. [phone rings] Let me. Sorry, I.

[Assistant] That's okay. We're, we're just about done there. Well, it sounds like you've really stayed on, on task, on mission.

[User] Well, I've, I've tried. I, you know, at one point, I actually several times had talked about, do I want to consider being a country director? And when I saw friends of mine who were, I said no. It has changed so much.

[Assistant] We've talked about that as well.

[User] I don't want to, you know, it's different today with, your husband was just mentioning, you know, the cell phones. I mean, I've heard, you know, someone gets over there and the next day their parents are called Peace Corps. My son or daughter is in a place with the cockroaches, ahhh!

[Assistant] Yeah. It's a whole different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I've, I've tried. I, you know, at one point, I actually several times had talked about, do I want to consider being a country director? And when I saw friends of mine who were, I said no. It has changed so much.

[Assistant] We've talked about that as well.

[User] I don't want to, you know, it's different today with, your husband was just mentioning, you know, the cell phones. I mean, I've heard, you know, someone gets over there and the next day their parents are called Peace Corps. My son or daughter is in a place with the cockroaches, ahhh!

[Assistant] Yeah. It's a whole different.

[User] Yeah. Or, and I know the security thing is a big issue.

[Assistant] I mean, there were security issues then. They weren't as, maybe not as well known.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't want to, you know, it's different today with, your husband was just mentioning, you know, the cell phones. I mean, I've heard, you know, someone gets over there and the next day their parents are called Peace Corps. My son or daughter is in a place with the cockroaches, ahhh!

[Assistant] Yeah. It's a whole different.

[User] Yeah. Or, and I know the security thing is a big issue.

[Assistant] I mean, there were security issues then. They weren't as, maybe not as well known.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And maybe Peace Corps was willing to live with some of the, the risk, but not, not anymore.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Or, and I know the security thing is a big issue.

[Assistant] I mean, there were security issues then. They weren't as, maybe not as well known.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And maybe Peace Corps was willing to live with some of the, the risk, but not, not anymore.

[User] Like going up in the shifta area.

[Assistant] Yeah. Right. That would never happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like going up in the shifta area.

[Assistant] Yeah. Right. That would never happen.

[User] That would never happen. And in fact, I went over there once and took, well, I was going back up to Marsabit and we were flying and the Peace Corps director in the country of Kenya said, can I go with you? And I said, absolutely, come on. And we'll go up there and I'll show you. Because I was, well, he went up, he saw the whole thing. They saw places to put some volunteers. They ended up putting two women up there in rural women's schools, but only for a year and a year and a half. And then there was some shifta thing again going on, and they pulled them right away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they haven't gone back.

[Assistant] It's a whole different world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would never happen. And in fact, I went over there once and took, well, I was going back up to Marsabit and we were flying and the Peace Corps director in the country of Kenya said, can I go with you? And I said, absolutely, come on. And we'll go up there and I'll show you. Because I was, well, he went up, he saw the whole thing. They saw places to put some volunteers. They ended up putting two women up there in rural women's schools, but only for a year and a year and a half. And then there was some shifta thing again going on, and they pulled them right away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they haven't gone back.

[Assistant] It's a whole different world.

[User] So and then I had this other student who, when I was at, Pitt had a program of helping. You spend a year at Pitt Public Health. Then you spend two years in the Peace Corps. Then you come back and spend a year in graduate school finishing up, with the idea you've had that field experience and you're a better public health. And I was the mentor for that student, and he was pulled out of the coast of Kenya, sent up to Nairobi when they had problems. And he, you know, I keep in touch with him. He just got married. And it, his commitment to the Peace Corps is very thin. Very thin. So.

[Assistant] Well, people enter for different reasons too now.