[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know, my health isn't. My walking is not as good as it was in Fiji. I'm not sure that I have the right health anymore, but I sure love the people I met there.

[Assistant] And you've stayed in touch with other volunteers as well as local people?

[User] I have. I have. I helped organize a reunion of volunteers in Kirby Cove that brought about 80 people from the United States all over.

[Assistant] Yeah. When was that, back in the?

[User] The Kirby Cove thing was, I think, '84.

[Assistant] And that was one of many reunions as I recall.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You did the third or fourth one down in Catalina. Yeah. So I thought those were so useful because you got to meet people who had your assignment perhaps after you left. Not my particular successor had a nervous breakdown.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] I actually went in at the end of my first year in Fiji, and Dan Cantor, the Peace Corps director, looked at me and he said, what are you doing? Because I looked so tired. I, you know, if I didn't. I was full fledged, fully fledged into that assignment. And plus the humidity. Remember I said I don't do well with humidity.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So but I looked tired and I was teaching more classes than normal, normally. But if I didn't teach them, then the students really wouldn't have had that amount of art available. So it was my choice and, um. But anyhow, so she used up the amount of paper in a few months that I had used in two years. So paper is not something that people are going to be able to get in the outer islands.

[Assistant] So you tried to use other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I actually went in at the end of my first year in Fiji, and Dan Cantor, the Peace Corps director, looked at me and he said, what are you doing? Because I looked so tired. I, you know, if I didn't. I was full fledged, fully fledged into that assignment. And plus the humidity. Remember I said I don't do well with humidity.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So but I looked tired and I was teaching more classes than normal, normally. But if I didn't teach them, then the students really wouldn't have had that amount of art available. So it was my choice and, um. But anyhow, so she used up the amount of paper in a few months that I had used in two years. So paper is not something that people are going to be able to get in the outer islands.

[Assistant] So you tried to use other.

[User] Oh yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] That was smart.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So but I looked tired and I was teaching more classes than normal, normally. But if I didn't teach them, then the students really wouldn't have had that amount of art available. So it was my choice and, um. But anyhow, so she used up the amount of paper in a few months that I had used in two years. So paper is not something that people are going to be able to get in the outer islands.

[Assistant] So you tried to use other.

[User] Oh yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] That was smart.

[User] Yeah. Well, bamboo sheets, bamboo that comes off of trees. You can etch into it with a with a sharp seashell and make a print from that. It was just, it was a lot of fun. You could take, the PE department when they were ready to throw away the basketballs or whatever, soccer balls and stuff. You tear that open and you can print, carve into that and make rubber stamps.

[Assistant] OK. You would glue it to block a wood or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] That was smart.

[User] Yeah. Well, bamboo sheets, bamboo that comes off of trees. You can etch into it with a with a sharp seashell and make a print from that. It was just, it was a lot of fun. You could take, the PE department when they were ready to throw away the basketballs or whatever, soccer balls and stuff. You tear that open and you can print, carve into that and make rubber stamps.

[Assistant] OK. You would glue it to block a wood or something?

[User] Well, you could. But if you kept it in a, you know, somewhat arc shape, then you could print on an uneven surface too. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty inventive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, bamboo sheets, bamboo that comes off of trees. You can etch into it with a with a sharp seashell and make a print from that. It was just, it was a lot of fun. You could take, the PE department when they were ready to throw away the basketballs or whatever, soccer balls and stuff. You tear that open and you can print, carve into that and make rubber stamps.

[Assistant] OK. You would glue it to block a wood or something?

[User] Well, you could. But if you kept it in a, you know, somewhat arc shape, then you could print on an uneven surface too. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty inventive.

[User] And then there's the plants. You just crushed different plants and we did that with my classes so that they would know that you could get something totally unexpected from onion skins if you boil them and make an ink or paint out of them.

[Assistant] Did you just discover this there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you could. But if you kept it in a, you know, somewhat arc shape, then you could print on an uneven surface too. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty inventive.

[User] And then there's the plants. You just crushed different plants and we did that with my classes so that they would know that you could get something totally unexpected from onion skins if you boil them and make an ink or paint out of them.

[Assistant] Did you just discover this there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did you know about this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then there's the plants. You just crushed different plants and we did that with my classes so that they would know that you could get something totally unexpected from onion skins if you boil them and make an ink or paint out of them.

[Assistant] Did you just discover this there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did you know about this?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you experimented while you were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did you know about this?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you experimented while you were there.

[User]
Oh man, I wish I had known more before I went to Fiji. I can. I eventually traveled to Singapore after. We traveled three months through Southeast Asia. I did get to India after Peace Corps. And I saw carving into seashells like cameos that I didn't know about. You know, it's like, oh yeah, you could do that. I had, during one of those school breaks, I told all the students to bring back seashells with them, and they brought some seashells I had never seen. It was like, whoa. We can't just break that up and try and drill a hole with a nail and a stone. That's a beautiful shell. So but I learned, I researched. I had, I was given the opportunity to order books. The British High Commission gave Nasinu Teachers College a grant for art books. They may do that every year, but the people who had done it in the past didn't care. And so maybe the books never arrived.

I cared, and by the end of my first year, those books came in. And so I had books that talked about leaf printing and different things and comparative cultural things with other islands, other parts of the island, the Solomon Islands. They've got alligators. So they had, or crocodiles, and they had artwork that had that. It was a great two years experience.

[Assistant] Yeah, it sounds like it. And it sounds like you introduced them to a lot of new stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you experimented while you were there.

[User]
Oh man, I wish I had known more before I went to Fiji. I can. I eventually traveled to Singapore after. We traveled three months through Southeast Asia. I did get to India after Peace Corps. And I saw carving into seashells like cameos that I didn't know about. You know, it's like, oh yeah, you could do that. I had, during one of those school breaks, I told all the students to bring back seashells with them, and they brought some seashells I had never seen. It was like, whoa. We can't just break that up and try and drill a hole with a nail and a stone. That's a beautiful shell. So but I learned, I researched. I had, I was given the opportunity to order books. The British High Commission gave Nasinu Teachers College a grant for art books. They may do that every year, but the people who had done it in the past didn't care. And so maybe the books never arrived.

I cared, and by the end of my first year, those books came in. And so I had books that talked about leaf printing and different things and comparative cultural things with other islands, other parts of the island, the Solomon Islands. They've got alligators. So they had, or crocodiles, and they had artwork that had that. It was a great two years experience.

[Assistant] Yeah, it sounds like it. And it sounds like you introduced them to a lot of new stuff.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so you mentioned a trip back in 1984. Have you made any other trips back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh man, I wish I had known more before I went to Fiji. I can. I eventually traveled to Singapore after. We traveled three months through Southeast Asia. I did get to India after Peace Corps. And I saw carving into seashells like cameos that I didn't know about. You know, it's like, oh yeah, you could do that. I had, during one of those school breaks, I told all the students to bring back seashells with them, and they brought some seashells I had never seen. It was like, whoa. We can't just break that up and try and drill a hole with a nail and a stone. That's a beautiful shell. So but I learned, I researched. I had, I was given the opportunity to order books. The British High Commission gave Nasinu Teachers College a grant for art books. They may do that every year, but the people who had done it in the past didn't care. And so maybe the books never arrived.

I cared, and by the end of my first year, those books came in. And so I had books that talked about leaf printing and different things and comparative cultural things with other islands, other parts of the island, the Solomon Islands. They've got alligators. So they had, or crocodiles, and they had artwork that had that. It was a great two years experience.

[Assistant] Yeah, it sounds like it. And it sounds like you introduced them to a lot of new stuff.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so you mentioned a trip back in 1984. Have you made any other trips back?

[User] No, no, that was pretty exhausting. I, you know, things don't change an awful lot in Fiji. They've had political coups that have changed the relationship between the cultures. It's kind of sad to see families that got along, don't get along necessarily. I have had students whose kids were raised and thought they could become teachers or they would get, um, they wanted to go into higher education. And these vocational schools had changed. You have to have a sponsor in order to be a student at FIT.

[Assistant] Didn't know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so you mentioned a trip back in 1984. Have you made any other trips back?

[User] No, no, that was pretty exhausting. I, you know, things don't change an awful lot in Fiji. They've had political coups that have changed the relationship between the cultures. It's kind of sad to see families that got along, don't get along necessarily. I have had students whose kids were raised and thought they could become teachers or they would get, um, they wanted to go into higher education. And these vocational schools had changed. You have to have a sponsor in order to be a student at FIT.

[Assistant] Didn't know that.

[User] So it's kind of sad that aspirations are not as successful right now.

[Assistant] So back to the time you lived in Fiji, what did you do in your leisure time? What did you do for fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, that was pretty exhausting. I, you know, things don't change an awful lot in Fiji. They've had political coups that have changed the relationship between the cultures. It's kind of sad to see families that got along, don't get along necessarily. I have had students whose kids were raised and thought they could become teachers or they would get, um, they wanted to go into higher education. And these vocational schools had changed. You have to have a sponsor in order to be a student at FIT.

[Assistant] Didn't know that.

[User] So it's kind of sad that aspirations are not as successful right now.

[Assistant] So back to the time you lived in Fiji, what did you do in your leisure time? What did you do for fun?

[User] Let's see. Well, I learned some of those Fijian crafts so that I could offer those. A lot of cooking, a lot of learning to use local vegetables and fruits and things. Socializing, especially like with no television at the time and no broadcast radio after 11 p.m. unless there was some catastrophe going on. We actually didn't mind the fact that there was a cyclone or two that would come through because you'd have radio all night and hear about different inoki and kalera getting their furniture. But I think just the typical things I had thought I would do some knitting. I thought I might be teaching embroidery. The missionaries had already come through some of the villages, and so people knew embroidery more than I expected. So I wound up not really doing needlework with people. I did other kinds of crafts.

[Assistant] So over the years, you've probably seen a lot of people come and go from Peace Corps Fiji through your continued connection. Do you have any thoughts for or have you given advice to people who thought they might want to join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it's kind of sad that aspirations are not as successful right now.

[Assistant] So back to the time you lived in Fiji, what did you do in your leisure time? What did you do for fun?

[User] Let's see. Well, I learned some of those Fijian crafts so that I could offer those. A lot of cooking, a lot of learning to use local vegetables and fruits and things. Socializing, especially like with no television at the time and no broadcast radio after 11 p.m. unless there was some catastrophe going on. We actually didn't mind the fact that there was a cyclone or two that would come through because you'd have radio all night and hear about different inoki and kalera getting their furniture. But I think just the typical things I had thought I would do some knitting. I thought I might be teaching embroidery. The missionaries had already come through some of the villages, and so people knew embroidery more than I expected. So I wound up not really doing needlework with people. I did other kinds of crafts.

[Assistant] So over the years, you've probably seen a lot of people come and go from Peace Corps Fiji through your continued connection. Do you have any thoughts for or have you given advice to people who thought they might want to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, it's pretty hard to keep me from not talking about it. Yeah. Especially because I had such an appreciation of, say, skilled tradesmen who no longer should be getting up on those ladders could teach those skills in Fiji and other Peace Corps assignments. I think because I did recruitment for two years before I was a volunteer, came back. I was the first person in the United States on Peace Corps staff who had got a leave of absence to become a volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, so you went back to work for Peace Corps when you came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it's pretty hard to keep me from not talking about it. Yeah. Especially because I had such an appreciation of, say, skilled tradesmen who no longer should be getting up on those ladders could teach those skills in Fiji and other Peace Corps assignments. I think because I did recruitment for two years before I was a volunteer, came back. I was the first person in the United States on Peace Corps staff who had got a leave of absence to become a volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, so you went back to work for Peace Corps when you came back?

[User] Yeah. But having worked for them for two years, I thought, well, a leave of absence would, you know, be easy to fulfill. Turned out my job disintegrated while I was gone. The guy that I was working for didn't want to come up to San Francisco, and they moved the offices up here. So the region communications office wasn't up here anymore. But I eventually got a job in the recruitment office, so I was telling people how to join VISTA, which is the domestic version, and the Peace Corps. And I think like everybody else, I think that Peace Corps' training provided me confidence to do whatever I wanted. And I learned some agriculture things that I could do while I was there. I did informal teaching in America before I went overseas, but now I've made a career of teaching since 1980 or so.

[Assistant] Are you still teaching?

[User] Yeah. Wherever I can get hired.

[Assistant] And you still have some Fijian friends today? There's quite a community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But having worked for them for two years, I thought, well, a leave of absence would, you know, be easy to fulfill. Turned out my job disintegrated while I was gone. The guy that I was working for didn't want to come up to San Francisco, and they moved the offices up here. So the region communications office wasn't up here anymore. But I eventually got a job in the recruitment office, so I was telling people how to join VISTA, which is the domestic version, and the Peace Corps. And I think like everybody else, I think that Peace Corps' training provided me confidence to do whatever I wanted. And I learned some agriculture things that I could do while I was there. I did informal teaching in America before I went overseas, but now I've made a career of teaching since 1980 or so.

[Assistant] Are you still teaching?

[User] Yeah. Wherever I can get hired.

[Assistant] And you still have some Fijian friends today? There's quite a community.

[User] Oh, there's a large community here in Northern California, so we've had additional group get togethers. When we've had these reunions, we've had a night where we've made, say, Indian food on a Friday night and Saturday we've made a big lovo. And I had no idea there was many Fijians in the area. Actually right now I'll see someone out on the street and I'll go and ask. I'll say ni sa bula to them because they look to me like they could be Melanesian, and they're helping, they take care of the elderly in San Francisco perhaps and so as a caretaker. I've gone over. I've crossed the street and given my greeting and their client has said to me, it's not to me, it's said to the Fijian, it's someone from your home country, dear. So, you know, it's like, right, so.

[Assistant] So I heard a story just yesterday. I was talking to Paul Milo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Wherever I can get hired.

[Assistant] And you still have some Fijian friends today? There's quite a community.

[User] Oh, there's a large community here in Northern California, so we've had additional group get togethers. When we've had these reunions, we've had a night where we've made, say, Indian food on a Friday night and Saturday we've made a big lovo. And I had no idea there was many Fijians in the area. Actually right now I'll see someone out on the street and I'll go and ask. I'll say ni sa bula to them because they look to me like they could be Melanesian, and they're helping, they take care of the elderly in San Francisco perhaps and so as a caretaker. I've gone over. I've crossed the street and given my greeting and their client has said to me, it's not to me, it's said to the Fijian, it's someone from your home country, dear. So, you know, it's like, right, so.

[Assistant] So I heard a story just yesterday. I was talking to Paul Milo.

[User] Oh, neat.

[Assistant] You know what I'm talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, there's a large community here in Northern California, so we've had additional group get togethers. When we've had these reunions, we've had a night where we've made, say, Indian food on a Friday night and Saturday we've made a big lovo. And I had no idea there was many Fijians in the area. Actually right now I'll see someone out on the street and I'll go and ask. I'll say ni sa bula to them because they look to me like they could be Melanesian, and they're helping, they take care of the elderly in San Francisco perhaps and so as a caretaker. I've gone over. I've crossed the street and given my greeting and their client has said to me, it's not to me, it's said to the Fijian, it's someone from your home country, dear. So, you know, it's like, right, so.

[Assistant] So I heard a story just yesterday. I was talking to Paul Milo.

[User] Oh, neat.

[Assistant] You know what I'm talking about?

[User] Absolutely. Because Union Street has this fair in every June and so it's very crowded. And my husband got sort of separated from me and I tried to get his attention in Fiji in a crowded market. You can go, psst! And only the person you're doing that turns around. That never, you know, made any sense to me, but that really was true. So John turned around and so did Paul, and it was like, well, what's this? What's this American turning around for? So I went over and introduced myself, and he was a former volunteer from Fiji. So crazy.

[Assistant] What are the chances of that happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, neat.

[Assistant] You know what I'm talking about?

[User] Absolutely. Because Union Street has this fair in every June and so it's very crowded. And my husband got sort of separated from me and I tried to get his attention in Fiji in a crowded market. You can go, psst! And only the person you're doing that turns around. That never, you know, made any sense to me, but that really was true. So John turned around and so did Paul, and it was like, well, what's this? What's this American turning around for? So I went over and introduced myself, and he was a former volunteer from Fiji. So crazy.

[Assistant] What are the chances of that happening?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, are there any other memories or stories you'd like to share? Or final words of wisdom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Because Union Street has this fair in every June and so it's very crowded. And my husband got sort of separated from me and I tried to get his attention in Fiji in a crowded market. You can go, psst! And only the person you're doing that turns around. That never, you know, made any sense to me, but that really was true. So John turned around and so did Paul, and it was like, well, what's this? What's this American turning around for? So I went over and introduced myself, and he was a former volunteer from Fiji. So crazy.

[Assistant] What are the chances of that happening?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, are there any other memories or stories you'd like to share? Or final words of wisdom?

[User] Ha, wisdom. I don't know. I was greeting people in California. If I was to meet somebody up out on the, uh, in this neighborhood. I remember just, you know, saying hello to them as they were coming into a restaurant or whatever. And so it's crazy because you want to be effusive and you'll look, people will look at you somewhat strangely. But it pays off sometimes, you know. I think it's nice to have some kindness going around in the area. So that's. I make that a thing I want to do.

[Assistant] All right. So, well, if you don't have anything to add, I want to thank you for taking the time for doing this today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, are there any other memories or stories you'd like to share? Or final words of wisdom?

[User] Ha, wisdom. I don't know. I was greeting people in California. If I was to meet somebody up out on the, uh, in this neighborhood. I remember just, you know, saying hello to them as they were coming into a restaurant or whatever. And so it's crazy because you want to be effusive and you'll look, people will look at you somewhat strangely. But it pays off sometimes, you know. I think it's nice to have some kindness going around in the area. So that's. I make that a thing I want to do.

[Assistant] All right. So, well, if you don't have anything to add, I want to thank you for taking the time for doing this today.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] It's been fun. And that concludes the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, everything.

[Assistant] How do you prepare and deal for what you’re going to find?

[User] Well, over time we’ve learned that the weakest part, our Achilles’ heel of the program, is whether we can launch and recover boats safely. We don’t have divers jump off the ship. We have to launch a smaller boat, and these are SOLAS [Safety of Life at Sea] boats. These are phenomenal boats, but because the ship bounces and these little boats bounce a lot more, it’s very dynamic, and if we can’t safely launch and recover a boat, then that’s when we say it’s too rough to work.\n\n STS 51-L, the Challenger, they were unable to make it to station because it was too rough, but I don’t think there was any other time that the ships were in weather that was so bad that we couldn’t get out there. We leave twenty-four hours prior to launch, and so there’s ample time to get on station, but the seas were so nasty that they couldn’t get on station. That was the only time that’s ever happened. We have been held back in port before, but that was an administrative decision.

[Assistant] When both of the ships are out, tell me the procedure of knowing who goes to where and to which one. I’m always curious, do the boosters have names?

[User] Yes, they do. There’s a right hand and a left hand. The right hand doesn’t have a stripe, and the left hand has the stripe around the forward skirt. So that’s a good question. Freedom always gets the left hand and Liberty always gets the right hand. There’s no reason for that, except one has to do one and one has to do the other, so it’s just the way it fell.

[Assistant] Is it a parallel operation, or is it independent of each other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely, yes. They’re doers. They’re not sitters.

[Assistant] How does that cross over to your barge transportation? If we could talk about that for a few minutes.

[User] Sure. For the ship’s crew, there is nothing nicer than, “All right, let’s go to New Orleans,” and you go around the [Florida] Keys and you cross. Sometimes in the middle of the Gulf it gets nasty, but, all in all, you’ve got the rigs. There’s so much going on in the Gulf. I really miss doing that.

[Assistant] The water’s pretty.

[User] Yes. Everything is nice about that. Then once you get in there, Michoud’s only twenty minutes from New Orleans, so there’s a lot to do. That was a good thing.

[Assistant] You had to do some modifications to the ships?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. For the ship’s crew, there is nothing nicer than, “All right, let’s go to New Orleans,” and you go around the [Florida] Keys and you cross. Sometimes in the middle of the Gulf it gets nasty, but, all in all, you’ve got the rigs. There’s so much going on in the Gulf. I really miss doing that.

[Assistant] The water’s pretty.

[User] Yes. Everything is nice about that. Then once you get in there, Michoud’s only twenty minutes from New Orleans, so there’s a lot to do. That was a good thing.

[Assistant] You had to do some modifications to the ships?

[User] We went with the naval architect who still has the plans for the ship, so the same group that designed the ship initially converted it to handle a bigger tow. We put an H-Bit, it looks like a big H, on the back deck, and that basically provides the thimble for the wire to go through and the tow point puts the load on the vessel where you want it for towing this barge. We got our pilotage for the Mississippi River Gulf outlet, which we used all the way up until [Hurricane] Katrina. After Hurricane Katrina, it’s closed and now we have to go to Gulfport [Mississippi] and use small tugs to bring it over from Gulfport to MAF. But, yes, that was nothing but a plus for us. Loved that.

[Assistant] So you actually took ownership of the ET.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Everything is nice about that. Then once you get in there, Michoud’s only twenty minutes from New Orleans, so there’s a lot to do. That was a good thing.

[Assistant] You had to do some modifications to the ships?

[User] We went with the naval architect who still has the plans for the ship, so the same group that designed the ship initially converted it to handle a bigger tow. We put an H-Bit, it looks like a big H, on the back deck, and that basically provides the thimble for the wire to go through and the tow point puts the load on the vessel where you want it for towing this barge. We got our pilotage for the Mississippi River Gulf outlet, which we used all the way up until [Hurricane] Katrina. After Hurricane Katrina, it’s closed and now we have to go to Gulfport [Mississippi] and use small tugs to bring it over from Gulfport to MAF. But, yes, that was nothing but a plus for us. Loved that.

[Assistant] So you actually took ownership of the ET.

[User] We signed for it out there, yes.

[Assistant] Then once it got on the Pegasus, it was yours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went with the naval architect who still has the plans for the ship, so the same group that designed the ship initially converted it to handle a bigger tow. We put an H-Bit, it looks like a big H, on the back deck, and that basically provides the thimble for the wire to go through and the tow point puts the load on the vessel where you want it for towing this barge. We got our pilotage for the Mississippi River Gulf outlet, which we used all the way up until [Hurricane] Katrina. After Hurricane Katrina, it’s closed and now we have to go to Gulfport [Mississippi] and use small tugs to bring it over from Gulfport to MAF. But, yes, that was nothing but a plus for us. Loved that.

[Assistant] So you actually took ownership of the ET.

[User] We signed for it out there, yes.

[Assistant] Then once it got on the Pegasus, it was yours.

[User] Right. After it was finally loaded, we’d go around and make sure everything is tight, everything is good, and then we sign for it. It was an 1149 [form], and that transferred the responsibility over from the manufacturer, which was Lockheed Martin [Corporation], to USA [United Space Alliance].

[Assistant] When you got it here, tell me about the route back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We signed for it out there, yes.

[Assistant] Then once it got on the Pegasus, it was yours.

[User] Right. After it was finally loaded, we’d go around and make sure everything is tight, everything is good, and then we sign for it. It was an 1149 [form], and that transferred the responsibility over from the manufacturer, which was Lockheed Martin [Corporation], to USA [United Space Alliance].

[Assistant] When you got it here, tell me about the route back.

[User] We come around the [Gulf] coast, we come up the East Coast, and if the weather was nice, if it was agreeable, we would come into the port and two inland tugs would be waiting for us. Then one of our guys here is a river pilot, and he would bring the barge all the way up to the VAB [turning] basin, where it would be ready for offload. If the weather was nice, we’d do that all in one day. Otherwise, we can tow the barge in just about any kind of weather, but going up the Banana River, because there’s so much windage on the barge, it’s easy to get blown out of the channel. So the weather has to be less than 15 knots for us to go up the river.

[Assistant] Do you have plans for the barge as well in your future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. After it was finally loaded, we’d go around and make sure everything is tight, everything is good, and then we sign for it. It was an 1149 [form], and that transferred the responsibility over from the manufacturer, which was Lockheed Martin [Corporation], to USA [United Space Alliance].

[Assistant] When you got it here, tell me about the route back.

[User] We come around the [Gulf] coast, we come up the East Coast, and if the weather was nice, if it was agreeable, we would come into the port and two inland tugs would be waiting for us. Then one of our guys here is a river pilot, and he would bring the barge all the way up to the VAB [turning] basin, where it would be ready for offload. If the weather was nice, we’d do that all in one day. Otherwise, we can tow the barge in just about any kind of weather, but going up the Banana River, because there’s so much windage on the barge, it’s easy to get blown out of the channel. So the weather has to be less than 15 knots for us to go up the river.

[Assistant] Do you have plans for the barge as well in your future?

[User] We have. Right now I think the only need is to be transferring hardware between the different Centers. There’s a bunch of engine components to bring to [NASA] Stennis [Space Center, Mississippi]. I think there’s some hardware that they want to bring to MAF, but ultimately I think the barge is going to stay at Stennis until SLS [Space Launch System] or whenever they need it.

[Assistant] Because it’s a very unique piece of equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. No humor at all. They’re just looking to transfer.

[Assistant] It’s literally a big project coming in, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your other thoughts about what makes your team so unique? You are, there’s no one else that does what you do. From what you’ve been telling me, too, you’ve been pretty much in a process of evolution ever since you came here.

[User] Absolutely. There’s a lot of creativity, and left alone, if you fertilize the environment enough, great things are going to happen. These guys are great. I keep bragging about our people, but on these Navy contracts, we pick up a junction box or a sensor and an acoustic array that’s in 500 feet of water offshore. There’s a current and the captain’s holding the vessel in the current, and he might have to be doing this for hours. They’re splicing fiber optic cable. Well, on these contracts now, our guys are doing that. Because we have four deck crew that go along with the ship, more and more they’re turning over their work to us because they can. Here’s a guy who’s a crane operator, he’s a diver, he’s a welder, and now he’s splicing fiber optic cables for the Navy.\n\n It’s the same way with the running ROVs for NOAA. We set up the controls in the deck workshop where they’ve got all their equipment, and I go down there, and one of our guys is flying it. “Come on, you guys.” They’re just doers and they’re capable, and it’s amazing. I’m sure you guys have seen that at JSC too. It’s a shame there’s so many phenomenal people walking out the door. It’s tough.

[Assistant] What is the greatest concern you have when your crew is out, as far as hazard and risk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we don’t. We’re hustling all the time, but that’s what we like. My focus is to just keep it propagating. NASA’s got a great asset, and I’m sure they have assets all over the place that are great, but I’m going to do my best to make sure this one keeps going.

[Assistant] By the end of the month, how large of a staff will you have?

[User] Oh, we’re down to twenty, and the deal is now we’re supposed to maintain both vessels and have a crew to operate one at a time. That’s where we’re at. And maintain our divability and all that stuff too. These guys are really busy, but it’s heartbreaking to see the talent go. It’s not a name or it’s not a number that’s walking out the door. It’s that guy who’s married to this person, who has these kids that are at this school, and that one’s going to get married. I mean, these are all—

[Assistant] Like a family moving away.

[User] Yes, it is. It’s just like that.

[Assistant] Well, I wish you the best. Is there something else that we might not have covered that you can think of, that you want people to know about your operations? I guess you might have already covered it, but when you are out on the retrieval for the SRBs, we talked about the parachute risks, but are there also risk of other explosives that are on the boosters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we’re down to twenty, and the deal is now we’re supposed to maintain both vessels and have a crew to operate one at a time. That’s where we’re at. And maintain our divability and all that stuff too. These guys are really busy, but it’s heartbreaking to see the talent go. It’s not a name or it’s not a number that’s walking out the door. It’s that guy who’s married to this person, who has these kids that are at this school, and that one’s going to get married. I mean, these are all—

[Assistant] Like a family moving away.

[User] Yes, it is. It’s just like that.

[Assistant] Well, I wish you the best. Is there something else that we might not have covered that you can think of, that you want people to know about your operations? I guess you might have already covered it, but when you are out on the retrieval for the SRBs, we talked about the parachute risks, but are there also risk of other explosives that are on the boosters?

[User] Yes, the SWARs, that saltwater-activated release, sometimes those don’t blow, and there’s a risk of them going, but it’s pretty much self-contained. There’s hydrazine gas, but that is water-soluble, so that’s not generally a risk for the divers. Most hazards are physical hazards, sharp edges of the phenolic nozzle as it’s surging. More things that you will see, not things that you can’t see.

[Assistant] The other one is kind of an odd question, but I know that during the Columbia recovery that the Navy was a big asset in helping to salvage, especially in Toledo Bend Reservoir [between Texas and Louisiana]. I know they employed a number of divers. Were you involved in the recovery of that as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is. It’s just like that.

[Assistant] Well, I wish you the best. Is there something else that we might not have covered that you can think of, that you want people to know about your operations? I guess you might have already covered it, but when you are out on the retrieval for the SRBs, we talked about the parachute risks, but are there also risk of other explosives that are on the boosters?

[User] Yes, the SWARs, that saltwater-activated release, sometimes those don’t blow, and there’s a risk of them going, but it’s pretty much self-contained. There’s hydrazine gas, but that is water-soluble, so that’s not generally a risk for the divers. Most hazards are physical hazards, sharp edges of the phenolic nozzle as it’s surging. More things that you will see, not things that you can’t see.

[Assistant] The other one is kind of an odd question, but I know that during the Columbia recovery that the Navy was a big asset in helping to salvage, especially in Toledo Bend Reservoir [between Texas and Louisiana]. I know they employed a number of divers. Were you involved in the recovery of that as well?

[User] I have comments, but you’d have to turn off your machine. [laughter]

[Assistant] Okay, I think we answered that question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the SWARs, that saltwater-activated release, sometimes those don’t blow, and there’s a risk of them going, but it’s pretty much self-contained. There’s hydrazine gas, but that is water-soluble, so that’s not generally a risk for the divers. Most hazards are physical hazards, sharp edges of the phenolic nozzle as it’s surging. More things that you will see, not things that you can’t see.

[Assistant] The other one is kind of an odd question, but I know that during the Columbia recovery that the Navy was a big asset in helping to salvage, especially in Toledo Bend Reservoir [between Texas and Louisiana]. I know they employed a number of divers. Were you involved in the recovery of that as well?

[User] I have comments, but you’d have to turn off your machine. [laughter]

[Assistant] Okay, I think we answered that question.

[User] No. We offered and, just like it is today, the political climate at that point was so high that they wanted to leave it with the supervisor of salvage with the Navy. We had a bunch of our people walking the fields, but they opted not to use us for the diving.

[Assistant] I guess the only other divers that I know off the top of my head are the ones at the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory]. Do you have any communication?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have comments, but you’d have to turn off your machine. [laughter]

[Assistant] Okay, I think we answered that question.

[User] No. We offered and, just like it is today, the political climate at that point was so high that they wanted to leave it with the supervisor of salvage with the Navy. We had a bunch of our people walking the fields, but they opted not to use us for the diving.

[Assistant] I guess the only other divers that I know off the top of my head are the ones at the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory]. Do you have any communication?

[User] It’s funny, because we’ve never worked for the same company. The divers there, I think they’re [Raytheon Technical Services Company], and we’re USA. I know our guys have actually gone out and dove in the NBL for certain projects, because it was built here and they wanted the consistency of the same divers out there. Certainly no hard feelings, and I’ve got a lot of respect for them. It’s funny that our paths have crossed more at Aquarius, training the astronauts, than they have at the NBL.

[Assistant] Of course, one’s a very controlled environment and one, like you said, is—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We offered and, just like it is today, the political climate at that point was so high that they wanted to leave it with the supervisor of salvage with the Navy. We had a bunch of our people walking the fields, but they opted not to use us for the diving.

[Assistant] I guess the only other divers that I know off the top of my head are the ones at the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory]. Do you have any communication?

[User] It’s funny, because we’ve never worked for the same company. The divers there, I think they’re [Raytheon Technical Services Company], and we’re USA. I know our guys have actually gone out and dove in the NBL for certain projects, because it was built here and they wanted the consistency of the same divers out there. Certainly no hard feelings, and I’ve got a lot of respect for them. It’s funny that our paths have crossed more at Aquarius, training the astronauts, than they have at the NBL.

[Assistant] Of course, one’s a very controlled environment and one, like you said, is—

[User] One is wide open.

[Assistant] Boy, that’s a good description of the sea.\n\n Well, I thank you for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s funny, because we’ve never worked for the same company. The divers there, I think they’re [Raytheon Technical Services Company], and we’re USA. I know our guys have actually gone out and dove in the NBL for certain projects, because it was built here and they wanted the consistency of the same divers out there. Certainly no hard feelings, and I’ve got a lot of respect for them. It’s funny that our paths have crossed more at Aquarius, training the astronauts, than they have at the NBL.

[Assistant] Of course, one’s a very controlled environment and one, like you said, is—

[User] One is wide open.

[Assistant] Boy, that’s a good description of the sea.\n\n Well, I thank you for your time.

[User] Thank you very much for coming out.

[Assistant] Your information is just great, and I’ll look forward to learning more. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. When you say “different,” in my view all missions really are 99 percent the same, and there’s 1 percent that’s different. So to me it wasn’t significantly different, even though it was classified and was Department of Defense. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but that’s true.

[Assistant] Now, you mentioned that the training part was easy.

[User] Oh yes. Oh, without a doubt. I’m trying to think of a good analogy. If every crew person could do that, they would get on a ramp, because you’ve just flown, and when you land from any Space Shuttle mission, there are no more trained astronauts than the people who have just landed.\n\n If they turned right around and flew, assigned to another mission with a different on-orbit task, I’ve always said I think you could have about a month and a half of training, and they could launch. Because the ascent and entry consume so much of the training that you’re way up on a stump, and so a few little proficiencies of ascent and entry, and that’s how you could do that. So, anyway, I thought maybe it’s a better, more efficient way to fly around here. Have about five crews, and you just keep turning them. [Laughter]\n\n But anyway, there’s obviously other purposes going on.

[Assistant] You’ve spent so many years as a pilot in the Air Force. Did that help you meld into this DOD mission without too many questions?

[User] No. …

[Assistant] Is there anything that sticks out in your memory about that mission that you can share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I don’t remember that, but if we had, I think she would have told me, because we had got where if it was something bad I had to tell you, I’ll just tell you. “Hey, John, you’re screwing up this.”\n\n “Oh, okay.”\n\n I don’t remember her doing that.

[Assistant] Well, that’s interesting. I don’t think we’ve heard that before. While she was there, speaking of Shannon Lucid, she set a record for the greatest number of flights for an American woman in the hours in orbit. But you, also, too; you were the first time that an astronaut had flown three times since Challenger, so I guess that was a mark for that. As a commander you were also involved in at least one experiment that we were able to find, the Investigations into the Polymer Membrane Processing Experiment. Is that normal for commanders to be in an experiment?

[User] I don’t know. I always was willing to volunteer if they needed additional subjects to do whatever they wanted to do. So, yes, I always did that, and especially the life science people. I came to like them and think they were trying to figure out things. So why shouldn’t I volunteer to be a lab rat for them, to give them additional data? Not that I knew anything. Usually when I did something like that, I’d have the crew member that knew all about it just hook me all up and start doing whatever they had to do, and I’d just be a lab rat for them, if that makes any sense.

[Assistant] Yes. I’m sure they appreciated that, a willing subject, and one that was hostage, at that. [Laughter] You were up there for nine days, and then you landed the Atlantis on the runway at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida], which was different, because you had been landing [at] Edwards [Air Force Base, California].

[User] That’s right, both previous times at Edwards.

[Assistant] This time, too, you were the one who was doing the landing. So tell us how the Orbiter handled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, both previous times at Edwards.

[Assistant] This time, too, you were the one who was doing the landing. So tell us how the Orbiter handled.

[User] It was just like the STA [Shuttle Training Aircraft] and just like people say, so there was, to me, no surprise, except there was one big surprise. I [debriefed] this—I’ll say it in a minute—and, of course, I then saw it happen. It’s happened many times afterwards. It was a new flight rule that came out because of it, and even the last mission, they did it. That is, when you’re landing at Kennedy [runway] 15 in the morning, on a clear blue day—in the STA you don’t see this. So if you’re the STA pilot flying, and I’ve done that role, too, you don’t notice it.\n\n But in the Orbiter I almost fell over when I came around the corner right at the end on the inner glide slope, I tried to pick up the ball/bar, and I couldn’t see it real good. I couldn’t see it with clarity, because of glare, some Sun glare in the morning off the window that you didn’t see in the STA. I really briefed that, because if you can’t see the ball/bar, you can have a tendency maybe to get low.\n\n So that surprised me, really surprised me, and so I really debriefed it and they made a flight rule then that said, with certain constraints, definitely do a right turn and land on [runway] 33, and even accept some tailwind. On a clear day where there [are] no clouds at 15,000, there was Sun glare in the morning. So that was a surprise on 43, to me, that I couldn’t see the ball/bar. Other than that, it was just like the STA.

[Assistant] As a pilot, is it good to be able to land the spacecraft?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] It was different from other aircraft that you had [flown]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Yes, because if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, I think Brewster [H. Shaw, Jr.] at the time was the Space Shuttle Program Manager at the time, and we had gained some bit of confidence working on some things earlier in the office. He was the one who was saying, “I need you to go do this.” And working with Fred Gregory [who] at the time was the safety guy at [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC], so they would evidently say, “Hey, John, we need you to [evaluate this for us].”

[Assistant] Well, that worked out well. Everybody knew—

[User] Yes, so they wanted to get an assessment on those subjects, yes.

[Assistant] That’s great. Well, within the year it was announced that you were going to command yet another mission, STS-58. Now, this one was, we could say, is maybe more than 1 percent different, because it was a Spacelab life science mission.

[User] But see, again, to me—yes, to me, with everything that’s going on, 99 percent—maybe I ought to be saying 98—is really the same. There are some little differences between the missions, yes. But, anyway, that’s my way of looking at it.

[Assistant] It was fourteen days long, and you had a lot of other crew members, but they were in the shape of rats, so you had some experiments.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and it all worked out really good.

[Assistant] You mentioned the involvement with Huntsville at Marshall Space Flight Center. I know that Ames Research Center [Moffett Field, California] had a lot to do with this flight as well, preparing. Did you have a lot of communication—

[User] Yes. Yes. Okay, it was Rhea who really worked with them. Rhea and Shannon and Marty and Dave, they worked with them. I totally deferred that subject and didn’t even get involved with it. On orbit, I’d float over and watch what they were doing every now and then, because I thought it was pretty interesting.\n\n One thing, as a guy knowing nothing about anything, that I observed that I’ll never forget is when they cut open one of those rats. I couldn’t believe what I saw. On the ground, humans, any animal, blood runs all over the place, and it looks kind of messy. It didn’t happen up there. You made that cut, and the blood just stayed all right there, let’s say, next to the spine or the bone, and it didn’t run all over the place. So it wasn’t messy. Me, I’m not a medical person, but it was clean. I thought, “Good Lord, that’s amazing.” Because fluids don’t run, it’s gravity that’s making them run here. Of course, up there, they’re just adhering to a surface. It’s coming out and adhering and just staying stuck to it. Crazy.

[Assistant] Well, this was the first time that the spaceflight experiments were done to assess the changes in tissues while they were in space.

[User] That’s right. That’s right. And they really, again, in your debrief on this mission, Rhea and Marty were the ones who were doing most of that, and they really knew what they were doing, and I won’t try to act like I knew anything about it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, one of the other types of experiments that you worked with, we understand that you did some SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]. You wanted to see if you could contact the schoolchildren.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. That’s right. And they really, again, in your debrief on this mission, Rhea and Marty were the ones who were doing most of that, and they really knew what they were doing, and I won’t try to act like I knew anything about it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, one of the other types of experiments that you worked with, we understand that you did some SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]. You wanted to see if you could contact the schoolchildren.

[User] Oh yes, that was good. Rick Searfoss really was the one who put all that together. He put together a tremendous plan that involved working with people on the ground who wanted to do that. Then he would get where each crew member would have a couple different groups of schools. Anyway, Rick worked out a very good SAREX plan so we could do communicating with schoolkids on the ground, yes.

[Assistant] How long were you talking to them from space?

[User] On those passes, always, always. Even when I was on the Mir, it doesn’t make any difference. Basically the length of time is about seven minutes total, and sometimes it’s only five minutes. What shortens it is how close you are to running right over the top. So if you’re offset to the left or right of them, that limits the contact range. So it’s on the order of four to seven minutes, depending on what the ground track is relevant to where they’re located.

[Assistant] Was this a daily function that you did, or was it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, that was good. Rick Searfoss really was the one who put all that together. He put together a tremendous plan that involved working with people on the ground who wanted to do that. Then he would get where each crew member would have a couple different groups of schools. Anyway, Rick worked out a very good SAREX plan so we could do communicating with schoolkids on the ground, yes.

[Assistant] How long were you talking to them from space?

[User] On those passes, always, always. Even when I was on the Mir, it doesn’t make any difference. Basically the length of time is about seven minutes total, and sometimes it’s only five minutes. What shortens it is how close you are to running right over the top. So if you’re offset to the left or right of them, that limits the contact range. So it’s on the order of four to seven minutes, depending on what the ground track is relevant to where they’re located.

[Assistant] Was this a daily function that you did, or was it—

[User] I’m trying to remember. There were some days, obviously, when we didn’t have them, but we did a lot of them, and again, Rick worked with a lot of people on the ground who put all that together. Rick could tell you an awful lot about that, so I’m not going to try to act like I know how he did that.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, we’ll make a note to [ask.]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it follows there. Yes, when I was going to land from the Mir, [and] at the time the NASA Administrator would come up a couple of days before and just say to you, “Whatever you want, within reason, whatever is possible, as soon as you land, I’m happy to bring it to you.”\n\n So he said, “What do you want?”\n\n And I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what. I want Brenda.”\n\n So when I landed, what that meant was he brought Brenda—or Dave [David C.] Leestma did—literally into the middeck of the Space Shuttle. And my daughter was in the White Room vehicle, and what they ended up doing, which I thought was kind of neat, since my daughter liked biology and chemistry kind of thing, is she got—I really said this more for my daughter. She then went around with me for the next five hours in all the postlanding medical stuff that was going on, and so she and my wife were with me the whole time for those four or five hours. So she saw a lot of interesting experiment things, from the scientist’s viewpoint. So I used to think she got, as an outsider to the space program, she ended up seeing a lot of things that were maybe useful, or not useful to her.

[Assistant] Well, it’s very unique. It won’t be something she could repeat again, so that’s pretty neat timing.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, thanks for sharing that.

[User] I don’t know if that’s important. That’s what I remember these years later. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I think that’s great. Before we leave 58, there was a laptop computer simulator put on board, because there had been a belief that the pilot, or rather the commander, would need maybe some refreshing. Did you utilize that computer? What was your assessment of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t. I didn’t. When I flew on all those missions, for whatever reason, nothing was affecting me. I had no SAS [Space Adaptation Syndrome] symptoms, which is similar to Shannon, see? I had none, and that was interesting. So, no, whether it was the fourteen days or the nine days, it wasn’t different to me. Although there was something different on that mission, but if you were ever going to have this problem, you wanted to have it when you had a lot of doctors on your crew. [Wright laughs.]\n\n For whatever reason—I shouldn’t put this in the history, but I don’t know; I always believe in the truth. If it’s truth, it doesn’t hurt. But anyway, it’s the day before entry, and I had diarrhea. Why I did, I don’t know, but I had four doctors taking care of me, and one way or the other, they told me they were going to get me fixed so that I could land the next day. And they did.

[Assistant] Hope they all didn’t send you a bill. [Laughter]

[User] No, and they did. They didn’t send me a bill, but I had all the help in the world. So if that was ever going to happen, that was the perfect time.

[Assistant] That was the good time, huh? What were your assignments and duties after you got back from this flight?

[User] I have to think.

[Assistant] I guess the other part of that question is did you think that you were going to have another flight, and were you starting to think about leaving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and they did. They didn’t send me a bill, but I had all the help in the world. So if that was ever going to happen, that was the perfect time.

[Assistant] That was the good time, huh? What were your assignments and duties after you got back from this flight?

[User] I have to think.

[Assistant] I guess the other part of that question is did you think that you were going to have another flight, and were you starting to think about leaving?

[User] No. No, I wanted to fly again. When I landed from that mission, of course, “Hoot” [Robert L. Gibson] was now the chief of the office. He’s Rhea’s husband. We were out at a dinner right here in town, I don’t know, a week after landing, a lot of us. And I said, “Hoot, are we just going to assign mission specialists to go fly on the Mir, or are we going to let a pilot do it, too? Or is it going to be a mission specialists club thing?” [Laughs] Anyway, that started my mission up to the Mir.\n\n No, I wanted to fly again, but I felt so far up on the stump with the Space Shuttle. Then I thought, “Why don’t I just go do something different?” So I wanted to fly on the Mir, and I thought why does it have to just be mission specialists? As it turns out, all the other six people that flew on the Mir were all doctor kind of people, Ph.D. kind of people, and I was only the oddball pilot kind of person.

[Assistant] And it gave a different perception and observation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You know, from my viewpoint, it was weeks. It was weeks. I would say it was two to three months when I felt normal. The data would tell you it was six months till my strength measurements and my bone density and everything was the way it was before I launched. To me, why that’s so important and all that is so important is that has an awful lot to do with are we ready to really put crew members on the surface of Mars, because I don’t see a therapist there to work with you. I don’t see a flight surgeon waiting for you to land on Mars. I don’t see a swimming pool for you to work out in for a month. And mind you, NASA is working very hard on trying to understand and solve that problem.

[Assistant] It’s been almost ten years since you returned. Are you having any issues or—

[User] No.

[Assistant] —has everything just been fine ever since those six months, huh?

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes. But it’s amazing to me. So there’s a real challenge. Going to the Moon was enough—“Buzz” [Edwin E. Aldrin, Jr.] and I have talked about this; Aldrin. You know, going to the Moon is one thing, because it’s two days there, and then you’re walking in one-sixth gravity on a spacewalk. Then it’s two days back, and the whole mission is an eleven-day mission.\n\n Going to Mars is two hundred days there. In today’s world, if we did it the way we go there, we went to the Moon, where you’re really as if you’ve came off the Space Station, because you were there for four or five, six months, and then, man, you’re on the surface of Mars in one-third gravity. [Laughs] I know one thing. We need to solve that problem. We can’t have humans land there until we solve this problem.

[Assistant] Once you were back up to being your normal self after returning from Mir, did you have new assignments? At what point did you start processing that you wanted to leave the agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say that now that I’ve—and Rhea said this once, which was funny to me, a couple of years ago at a conference. She said, “John, I remember,” and she said it kind of quick, but to the point. “I remember on 58 how you said you feel so good when you come off a space mission, you could probably stay there for a long time and it wouldn’t have any effect on you. That turned out not to be true.”\n\n I said, “You’re right, Rhea. I found my limit,” from the duration as far as it affected me when I returned. [Laughter]\n\n But let’s see. To make a long story short, I decided in the first two or three months that I thought I was ready to return home to San Antonio and earn some money for about five to ten years so I wouldn’t be living under a bridge for the rest of my life. I like the space program. I love the space program. But I figured I had to stop riding a tricycle like I was five years old at fifty-five, and go do a real job, earn some more money so I wouldn’t live under a bridge for the rest of my life. So that was a good decision. I look back now, and I’m happy I did that, but I loved the space program, and I liked flying in space. If someone could have figured out how to pay me maybe three times what they were paying me, I would have been happy to stay.

[Assistant] Happier, huh? [Laughs]

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that when we talked many years ago that you were involved in the Challenger Learning Centers. Do you still have involvement in those as well?

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] The one in San Antonio is really neat. We like it. The national office uses [the San Antonio Challenger Center as a benchmark for other Challenger Centers]. … I’ve asked [the national office], because there [are] about fifty-two [Challenger Centers, and] and they say there are three or four like us that are really running real good.

[Assistant] Stellar.

[User] Yes. So the one in San Antonio is really good. We’ve had, gosh, I think it’s now 72,000 middle school kids, at about 30 a group, have gone through the center. Something like 800 middle school science teachers have come there in the summer and trained. The program has been a big success in San Antonio. I don’t know if it would be in other cities, but in San Antonio it’s been a big success.\n\n In the summer we have some space camps that we run for one week, kind of like a day camp. You know, parents bring their kids at nine, pick them up at four, for five days during the week. We call that a Space Week, and that’s turned out to be real successful, and people like it. Some of the other science coordinators of the schools in San Antonio have come up with other ways to use it, and UTSA [University of Texas, San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas] has a engineering prep program for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth graders going to be and going into those grades. They’ve had that for years, twenty-five, thirty years. They’ve now incorporated our Challenger Center in, because they bring students over during the summer to fly the missions, and so it’s turned out to be a good thing.

[Assistant] Do you personally have a lot of activity on a day-to-day basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a good thing. I think it’s helping, if you will, motivate the twelve-year-old kids in science and math. It’s playing a role. I’m not saying—I don’t know where to put it with all the other things that go on with education, but if it has a role, it’s to motivate their interest.

[Assistant] Are you involved in other aspects of space exploration, as far as conferences or doing any of the other things?

[User] I go to the Association of Space Explorers every year, but I’m going to miss the one this year, because Brenda and I are going on another PR [Public Relations] thing. When people invite us to come and talk about NASA, we will go and do it. I didn’t mean all the time, but we do some of that.

[Assistant] Were you involved with any of the aspects with the Columbia accident investigation or any of that when that happened?

[User] No. No. My answer is no. The only involvement I had with that is a roommate of mine from both Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado] and Purdue and pilot training, Roy [D.] Bridges [Jr.], was the Center Director, so my only involvement was watching him on C-Span in a nice way trying to tell some of the members of the board real answers that maybe they weren’t—anyway, I was always applauding Roy.

[Assistant] I’m sure he was glad to have a good friend.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I go to the Association of Space Explorers every year, but I’m going to miss the one this year, because Brenda and I are going on another PR [Public Relations] thing. When people invite us to come and talk about NASA, we will go and do it. I didn’t mean all the time, but we do some of that.

[Assistant] Were you involved with any of the aspects with the Columbia accident investigation or any of that when that happened?

[User] No. No. My answer is no. The only involvement I had with that is a roommate of mine from both Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado] and Purdue and pilot training, Roy [D.] Bridges [Jr.], was the Center Director, so my only involvement was watching him on C-Span in a nice way trying to tell some of the members of the board real answers that maybe they weren’t—anyway, I was always applauding Roy.

[Assistant] I’m sure he was glad to have a good friend.

[User] I think, in the end, you know, he left Kennedy, like many of the people did, but he was there for six or seven years. But I think the NASA Administrator must have really liked him, because he kind of removed him before they were being asked to leave, I think, but he gave him the Center Director up at Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] that he had for about three years, yes.

[Assistant] I think he’s back in Texas now. Is he?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. My answer is no. The only involvement I had with that is a roommate of mine from both Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado] and Purdue and pilot training, Roy [D.] Bridges [Jr.], was the Center Director, so my only involvement was watching him on C-Span in a nice way trying to tell some of the members of the board real answers that maybe they weren’t—anyway, I was always applauding Roy.

[Assistant] I’m sure he was glad to have a good friend.

[User] I think, in the end, you know, he left Kennedy, like many of the people did, but he was there for six or seven years. But I think the NASA Administrator must have really liked him, because he kind of removed him before they were being asked to leave, I think, but he gave him the Center Director up at Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] that he had for about three years, yes.

[Assistant] I think he’s back in Texas now. Is he?

[User] No. No, he lives in Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Assistant] Okay. That’s good to know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, in the end, you know, he left Kennedy, like many of the people did, but he was there for six or seven years. But I think the NASA Administrator must have really liked him, because he kind of removed him before they were being asked to leave, I think, but he gave him the Center Director up at Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] that he had for about three years, yes.

[Assistant] I think he’s back in Texas now. Is he?

[User] No. No, he lives in Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Assistant] Okay. That’s good to know.

[User] No, we’re real good—Roy and Bonita, that’s his wife—I mean, literally, Roy and I roomed together, so we used to double date a lot, the four of us, when we were younger people.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a great friendship that has lasted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, he lives in Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Assistant] Okay. That’s good to know.

[User] No, we’re real good—Roy and Bonita, that’s his wife—I mean, literally, Roy and I roomed together, so we used to double date a lot, the four of us, when we were younger people.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a great friendship that has lasted.

[User] Yes, they’re good people. Yes, we like them.

[Assistant] Well, one of the questions that we wanted to ask you before we concluded today and concluded the oral history was when you look back over your NASA career, what do you find to be the most challenging aspect of all that you have done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they’re good people. Yes, we like them.

[Assistant] Well, one of the questions that we wanted to ask you before we concluded today and concluded the oral history was when you look back over your NASA career, what do you find to be the most challenging aspect of all that you have done?

[User] I don’t know the right answer to that, most challenging. Oh, well, I do, I guess, immediately. The most challenging two years, not only of my seventeen at NASA but of my entire life was the two and a half years I spent training and flying with the Russians. It was just an order of magnitude more challenging. It wasn’t because of them. I think the cause was there was a language barrier, and you had to learn the language. By the time I was done, Russian to me was like English, but it wasn’t when I was taking my first courses in Star City [Russia], so I think it was language that made it a challenge. It had nothing to do with the Russians, nothing to do with them.\n\n Then, as an American, because of the Cold War, you felt, “Whatever I do, I don’t want to make America look bad.” So it sort of was a motivation to maybe study even more than you wanted to study, to try to not look too stupid. Because you know how a foreigner can look stupid when you don’t speak real well.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So early on, man, I felt like we were just making America look real stupid. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Have you retained any of your Russian language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve heard people say that, too. Maybe it’s because every now and then I can be driving a car, and I’ll just in my brain shift into—

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] —speaking Russian to myself and sometimes almost mouthing it, because it’s not even hard. It’s not hard. If you get to that point, it’s actually not hard anymore. It’s not hard at all. Early on in a foreign language, like I did it in French the way most people do a foreign language in America, it seems real hard, and your mouth doesn’t—it hurts if you talk it, speak it a while, even in that country. If you hear it a while, your head feels all scrambled. You’ve got to get through that barrier, and then it’s easy.

[Assistant] I’ll remember. Would you consider the experience on Mir to be your most significant time?

[User] No, but it was the most challenging. That was the answer to your question, the challenge. But not most significant, no. It wasn’t any different than any of the other—to me, it wasn’t different. Although I really enjoyed it, because it was something different. My greatest disappointment was that we never launched or returned on the Soyuz, because it would have been fun for me to do that in a different vehicle. That’s just the way it worked out at that time.

[Assistant] At that time. And then now it’s that time again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —speaking Russian to myself and sometimes almost mouthing it, because it’s not even hard. It’s not hard. If you get to that point, it’s actually not hard anymore. It’s not hard at all. Early on in a foreign language, like I did it in French the way most people do a foreign language in America, it seems real hard, and your mouth doesn’t—it hurts if you talk it, speak it a while, even in that country. If you hear it a while, your head feels all scrambled. You’ve got to get through that barrier, and then it’s easy.

[Assistant] I’ll remember. Would you consider the experience on Mir to be your most significant time?

[User] No, but it was the most challenging. That was the answer to your question, the challenge. But not most significant, no. It wasn’t any different than any of the other—to me, it wasn’t different. Although I really enjoyed it, because it was something different. My greatest disappointment was that we never launched or returned on the Soyuz, because it would have been fun for me to do that in a different vehicle. That’s just the way it worked out at that time.

[Assistant] At that time. And then now it’s that time again.

[User] Now, that’s right.

[Assistant] Are there some other areas of your career with NASA or other aspects that you’d like to discuss? Anything else about the missions that we might not have covered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, that’s right.

[Assistant] Are there some other areas of your career with NASA or other aspects that you’d like to discuss? Anything else about the missions that we might not have covered?

[User] I’ll tell you, if I remember some, when I see your transcript that you’ll give me an opportunity to change, I will just add them in, if I remember anything significant. I’m trying to think right now. Let’s see, we did 33 and we did 43.

[Assistant] Fifty-eight.

[User] And 58.

[Assistant] We didn’t talk much about the [STS]-79 and 81.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll tell you, if I remember some, when I see your transcript that you’ll give me an opportunity to change, I will just add them in, if I remember anything significant. I’m trying to think right now. Let’s see, we did 33 and we did 43.

[Assistant] Fifty-eight.

[User] And 58.

[Assistant] We didn’t talk much about the [STS]-79 and 81.

[User] And that’s okay. I say that; I always tell people when I’m talking to them—I flew on STS-79 just like a piece of luggage. [Wright laughs.] Because I really didn’t train with the crew. I joined them, and they were a nice group of people, and Bill [William F.] Readdy was a great commander, and it was nice. And Jay [Jerome] Apt was real nice, and I could talk about the other crew members. So, I mean, it was nice. But they knew what they were doing. I hadn’t been involved with the Space Shuttle for two and a half years, and my real role on that crew was I was a piece of luggage.\n\n I even remember saying to Jay Apt, flying on the middeck prior to launch, I said, “Jay, you know I really don’t know too much about what I’m supposed to do down here,” because I’d never been on the middeck.\n\n He said, “Don’t worry about it, John. I’ll take you through everything you need to do as soon as we get on orbit.”\n\n I thought, “Okay, I’ll wait till we get there, and Jay will start.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess that was a sound experience for you, then, since you weren’t up in the pilot’s seat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was interested. To me, I just listened to everything and thought it was interesting. But I knew I didn’t know what to do, so anyway—and then on entry with 81, similarly, although I tried to do a few things that extra day in orbit, if I could help them out. I more took the role like Shannon showed me. “Hey, you need the garbage collected? I’ll pick the garbage up. You want something cleaned, I’ll do that.” Since I wasn’t involved with the details of what they were really doing, and really wanted to stay out of the way. So I felt like a piece of luggage again, returning on those two crews. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, it’s interesting observations, because you had been—

[User] And I don’t mean that bad, but I was happy to be a piece of luggage. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Sure. Yes, I could see that.

[User] But Bill Readdy, my wife would tell you Bill Readdy was really nice. He just took us in, even though we were only with the crew for about three weeks prior to launch, and made us feel like we were just part of the crew with everything that happened. I didn’t really deserve anything, since I hadn’t done anything, but anyway—and I think Mike [Michael A.] Baker did the same thing on 81. He had flown on 43 with me, so that was interesting. But it was all fine.

[Assistant] Yes, because you truly were a crew member. You weren’t the pilot or the commander, and so you just—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don’t mean that bad, but I was happy to be a piece of luggage. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Sure. Yes, I could see that.

[User] But Bill Readdy, my wife would tell you Bill Readdy was really nice. He just took us in, even though we were only with the crew for about three weeks prior to launch, and made us feel like we were just part of the crew with everything that happened. I didn’t really deserve anything, since I hadn’t done anything, but anyway—and I think Mike [Michael A.] Baker did the same thing on 81. He had flown on 43 with me, so that was interesting. But it was all fine.

[Assistant] Yes, because you truly were a crew member. You weren’t the pilot or the commander, and so you just—

[User] I even think more I was a piece of baggage.

[Assistant] A piece of baggage. [Laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But Bill Readdy, my wife would tell you Bill Readdy was really nice. He just took us in, even though we were only with the crew for about three weeks prior to launch, and made us feel like we were just part of the crew with everything that happened. I didn’t really deserve anything, since I hadn’t done anything, but anyway—and I think Mike [Michael A.] Baker did the same thing on 81. He had flown on 43 with me, so that was interesting. But it was all fine.

[Assistant] Yes, because you truly were a crew member. You weren’t the pilot or the commander, and so you just—

[User] I even think more I was a piece of baggage.

[Assistant] A piece of baggage. [Laughs]

[User] I mean, I was worse than a payload specialist, if you want to call that worse. I mean, it’s lower. I didn’t have any real responsibilities.

[Assistant] Except sit in that seat till—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I even think more I was a piece of baggage.

[Assistant] A piece of baggage. [Laughs]

[User] I mean, I was worse than a payload specialist, if you want to call that worse. I mean, it’s lower. I didn’t have any real responsibilities.

[Assistant] Except sit in that seat till—

[User] And that was okay with me, you know. That was okay with me.

[Assistant] That’s right. That’s right. That’s great. Well, we’ll take anything else you want to add when we send that, and the information that you gave us today—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I was worse than a payload specialist, if you want to call that worse. I mean, it’s lower. I didn’t have any real responsibilities.

[Assistant] Except sit in that seat till—

[User] And that was okay with me, you know. That was okay with me.

[Assistant] That’s right. That’s right. That’s great. Well, we’ll take anything else you want to add when we send that, and the information that you gave us today—

[User] Yes. The biggest things that I thought were these two. Now, this was just something that crews used to write after a mission. [Hands Wright a document.] But that’s already old and probably tampered, whereas this stuff is real.

[Assistant] But these firsthand observations will be great. We’ll definitely add those in, and then—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was okay with me, you know. That was okay with me.

[Assistant] That’s right. That’s right. That’s great. Well, we’ll take anything else you want to add when we send that, and the information that you gave us today—

[User] Yes. The biggest things that I thought were these two. Now, this was just something that crews used to write after a mission. [Hands Wright a document.] But that’s already old and probably tampered, whereas this stuff is real.

[Assistant] But these firsthand observations will be great. We’ll definitely add those in, and then—

[User] And more the e-mails. Like that front page I would call every bit as false as this. [Shows documents] But the three e-mails and that whole story were what I really thought at the time. And I wished afterwards, now, I’d done that on all the missions. I should have.

[Assistant] Okay. We will add it in and then send you a copy of the transcript, and if something else comes to mind, then just feel free to include that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a senior. I was entering my senior year at the University of Colorado in Boulder. I was majoring in political science. My plan was law school. I very much wanted to go to law school, but I was burnt out on school and I was absolutely. The idea that you would sit in the UMC in Boulder and you'd solve all the world's problems, but nothing really happened, you know?

[Assistant] This was '63 now?

[User] This was '62-'63, yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] I'm an army brat, so I had grown up all over the world and Nuremburg High School was where I went to high school for about three years. And I come out of a time where we were, it was like we were all charged with the idea that you had a responsibility in the world and you had to make things better and you couldn't let what happened in Germany happen again. And you very much, you know, I.

[Assistant] Was that part of the army milieu?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was '62-'63, yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] I'm an army brat, so I had grown up all over the world and Nuremburg High School was where I went to high school for about three years. And I come out of a time where we were, it was like we were all charged with the idea that you had a responsibility in the world and you had to make things better and you couldn't let what happened in Germany happen again. And you very much, you know, I.

[Assistant] Was that part of the army milieu?

[User] I think that was certainly, yeah, my father was a career military and he came out and he was a teacher and he worked with Model U.N. as a teacher. But yeah, I grew up with that, you know?

[Assistant] And so when you went into college, you had decided, had you made a career choice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm an army brat, so I had grown up all over the world and Nuremburg High School was where I went to high school for about three years. And I come out of a time where we were, it was like we were all charged with the idea that you had a responsibility in the world and you had to make things better and you couldn't let what happened in Germany happen again. And you very much, you know, I.

[Assistant] Was that part of the army milieu?

[User] I think that was certainly, yeah, my father was a career military and he came out and he was a teacher and he worked with Model U.N. as a teacher. But yeah, I grew up with that, you know?

[Assistant] And so when you went into college, you had decided, had you made a career choice?

[User] No, not when I went into college. I started out as a math major, hit calculus and changed immediately. Then I was going to do an anthropology, which I found fascinating. But I was a scholarship student and I was afraid to take tough courses because of my average. And physical anthropology was real tough and I didn't want to risk it.

[Assistant] During your high school years, did you do any kind of volunteer work, extracurricular things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was certainly, yeah, my father was a career military and he came out and he was a teacher and he worked with Model U.N. as a teacher. But yeah, I grew up with that, you know?

[Assistant] And so when you went into college, you had decided, had you made a career choice?

[User] No, not when I went into college. I started out as a math major, hit calculus and changed immediately. Then I was going to do an anthropology, which I found fascinating. But I was a scholarship student and I was afraid to take tough courses because of my average. And physical anthropology was real tough and I didn't want to risk it.

[Assistant] During your high school years, did you do any kind of volunteer work, extracurricular things?

[User] Junior Red Cross. But also when you're, I was a, you know, in the military and we were in Germany after the occupation officially ended and there was a big push to develop German-American relationships and friendships. And so in high school, we were part of, you know, you certainly got the idea that you had obligations, you know, whether it was to kids who were poor or whether, you know, yeah, that was very much part of growing up.

[Assistant] Had you learned in the second language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Junior Red Cross. But also when you're, I was a, you know, in the military and we were in Germany after the occupation officially ended and there was a big push to develop German-American relationships and friendships. And so in high school, we were part of, you know, you certainly got the idea that you had obligations, you know, whether it was to kids who were poor or whether, you know, yeah, that was very much part of growing up.

[Assistant] Had you learned in the second language?

[User] You know, it's real interesting. I studied German for three years and I could never speak or understand a word of it, but I could do the written part.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] Whereas I could a little bit, but not very much.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing. Extracurricular work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's real interesting. I studied German for three years and I could never speak or understand a word of it, but I could do the written part.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] Whereas I could a little bit, but not very much.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing. Extracurricular work?

[User] Not really, because I worked. I put myself through college.

[Assistant] So did you do any travel at all during your college years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whereas I could a little bit, but not very much.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing. Extracurricular work?

[User] Not really, because I worked. I put myself through college.

[Assistant] So did you do any travel at all during your college years?

[User] No, I did not.

[Assistant] All right. So you're facing graduation in '63. And how had you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, because I worked. I put myself through college.

[Assistant] So did you do any travel at all during your college years?

[User] No, I did not.

[Assistant] All right. So you're facing graduation in '63. And how had you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I remember John Kennedy's speech. You know, I just. And my grandfather in Philadelphia was Irish Catholic, and he was a ward healer in Philadelphia, and he, to him, the fact that a Catholic Irish kid was president, you know. So how could I not know, you know? And I remember that speech and I remember thinking, wow, just wow. But I didn't think, I didn't think Peace Corps myself. I wasn't that focused at the time. And even in my senior year, it was, um. I wasn't. They were giving various tests, you know, and I probably would have taken the CIA test if that had been the Saturday I was off work, you know. I wished I had been more honest, but it just, you know. But certainly, that's not true. I would not have done the CIA. But I might have, well, I did have the possibility of being a clerk and the Land Management Bureau in Denver. That was because I was a poli sci major. And I wanted to go to law school, but I was not going to, I was burnt out and financially I was going to have to finagle some stuff before I could go. And so I took the Peace Corps test and I still, there was.

[Assistant] Do you recall the test?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did not.

[Assistant] All right. So you're facing graduation in '63. And how had you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I remember John Kennedy's speech. You know, I just. And my grandfather in Philadelphia was Irish Catholic, and he was a ward healer in Philadelphia, and he, to him, the fact that a Catholic Irish kid was president, you know. So how could I not know, you know? And I remember that speech and I remember thinking, wow, just wow. But I didn't think, I didn't think Peace Corps myself. I wasn't that focused at the time. And even in my senior year, it was, um. I wasn't. They were giving various tests, you know, and I probably would have taken the CIA test if that had been the Saturday I was off work, you know. I wished I had been more honest, but it just, you know. But certainly, that's not true. I would not have done the CIA. But I might have, well, I did have the possibility of being a clerk and the Land Management Bureau in Denver. That was because I was a poli sci major. And I wanted to go to law school, but I was not going to, I was burnt out and financially I was going to have to finagle some stuff before I could go. And so I took the Peace Corps test and I still, there was.

[Assistant] Do you recall the test?

[User] I recall taking it. I don't recall anything about it.

[Assistant] But usually you didn't take the test until you had applied, or not necessarily. Do you remember applying to the Peace Corps and filling out the application form?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I recall taking it. I don't recall anything about it.

[Assistant] But usually you didn't take the test until you had applied, or not necessarily. Do you remember applying to the Peace Corps and filling out the application form?

[User] I remember taking the test first.

[Assistant] OK, OK.

[User] I think they offered the test on campus, you know, in a basement, you know, kind of thing.

[Assistant] And at that point after you took the test, was it just one of several possibilities of what you might do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember taking the test first.

[Assistant] OK, OK.

[User] I think they offered the test on campus, you know, in a basement, you know, kind of thing.

[Assistant] And at that point after you took the test, was it just one of several possibilities of what you might do?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] So it was still very theoretical.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they offered the test on campus, you know, in a basement, you know, kind of thing.

[Assistant] And at that point after you took the test, was it just one of several possibilities of what you might do?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] So it was still very theoretical.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] At what point did it become real?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] At what point did it become real?

[User] Well. I tell this story because this is the way it happened.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver and I said, no, don't. I said I understood that he was going to be sending a group of lawyers to one of the countries in Africa that had just come out from under colonial rule. And the idea was to codify tribal law. And I wrote and said that I would like to go with that group of lawyers. And of course, at the time, they were all male. And I said I wasn't a lawyer, but I had helped in voter registration and I could type. And I swear I got a telegram back inviting me to join an all-female group going to South America. And I don't, I put the two together, but I think that they saw right through my thinking. And I need to say that I did not want to get married at the time, although most of my friends were and there was a relationship that might have developed that way. But I also felt the kind of men that I want to know are in the Peace Corps. And I think that came real clear, came through in my letter to Shriver.

[Assistant] So you had graduated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well. I tell this story because this is the way it happened.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver and I said, no, don't. I said I understood that he was going to be sending a group of lawyers to one of the countries in Africa that had just come out from under colonial rule. And the idea was to codify tribal law. And I wrote and said that I would like to go with that group of lawyers. And of course, at the time, they were all male. And I said I wasn't a lawyer, but I had helped in voter registration and I could type. And I swear I got a telegram back inviting me to join an all-female group going to South America. And I don't, I put the two together, but I think that they saw right through my thinking. And I need to say that I did not want to get married at the time, although most of my friends were and there was a relationship that might have developed that way. But I also felt the kind of men that I want to know are in the Peace Corps. And I think that came real clear, came through in my letter to Shriver.

[Assistant] So you had graduated?

[User] No, this was still.

[Assistant] This was still before you graduated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver and I said, no, don't. I said I understood that he was going to be sending a group of lawyers to one of the countries in Africa that had just come out from under colonial rule. And the idea was to codify tribal law. And I wrote and said that I would like to go with that group of lawyers. And of course, at the time, they were all male. And I said I wasn't a lawyer, but I had helped in voter registration and I could type. And I swear I got a telegram back inviting me to join an all-female group going to South America. And I don't, I put the two together, but I think that they saw right through my thinking. And I need to say that I did not want to get married at the time, although most of my friends were and there was a relationship that might have developed that way. But I also felt the kind of men that I want to know are in the Peace Corps. And I think that came real clear, came through in my letter to Shriver.

[Assistant] So you had graduated?

[User] No, this was still.

[Assistant] This was still before you graduated.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application? Because usually when you do fill the application out, you indicate country of interest that you'd like to go here.