[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there are other projects in other countries that have done similar kinds of things.

[Assistant] Yes, yes. Yes. But we don't always have them available to us. That's really, really a great thing. So, you know, we are, we've done a really pretty in-depth look at those two years and your role in helping to get Peace Corps started in East Pakistan. And so it's really time for you to leave. But I have a personal question for you. Were you in East Pakistan alone as a bachelor, if you will?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You didn't have a family at that point?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Right. As of course, all I'm assuming all the volunteers also were solo without family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You didn't have a family at that point?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Right. As of course, all I'm assuming all the volunteers also were solo without family.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Yes, they do. Good point. Thank you.

[Assistant] In those early days, married couples didn't go in together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Right. As of course, all I'm assuming all the volunteers also were solo without family.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Yes, they do. Good point. Thank you.

[Assistant] In those early days, married couples didn't go in together.

[User] However, they came out together.

[Assistant] They did, so many!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Yes, they do. Good point. Thank you.

[Assistant] In those early days, married couples didn't go in together.

[User] However, they came out together.

[Assistant] They did, so many!

[User] We had four marriages.

[Assistant] Within the two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] However, they came out together.

[Assistant] They did, so many!

[User] We had four marriages.

[Assistant] Within the two years?

[User] Yeah, well three. Actually, three and a half in a sense. Two were between volunteers in my group. One was between one of my volunteers and of one who succeeded, a nurse. And then another was my colleague and buddy, Paul Slawson, who married a volunteer from West Pakistan. They’re married still today. And these marriages have all lasted, by the way.

[Assistant] Wonderful. That's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had four marriages.

[Assistant] Within the two years?

[User] Yeah, well three. Actually, three and a half in a sense. Two were between volunteers in my group. One was between one of my volunteers and of one who succeeded, a nurse. And then another was my colleague and buddy, Paul Slawson, who married a volunteer from West Pakistan. They’re married still today. And these marriages have all lasted, by the way.

[Assistant] Wonderful. That's great.

[User] So my line is that I married my wife as a result of Peace Corps experiences there. So I make the pitch to the Peace Corps with the best experience that's been going. Matching service.

[Assistant] Matching service, absolutely. Well, so, you know, we're really we're getting close. And I want to have you talk a little bit about how you brought closure to your two years and what your feelings were as you left Pakistan. And then what did you go into after that? And then I have a closing question for you that’s reflective.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my line is that I married my wife as a result of Peace Corps experiences there. So I make the pitch to the Peace Corps with the best experience that's been going. Matching service.

[Assistant] Matching service, absolutely. Well, so, you know, we're really we're getting close. And I want to have you talk a little bit about how you brought closure to your two years and what your feelings were as you left Pakistan. And then what did you go into after that? And then I have a closing question for you that’s reflective.

[User] Well, there's a whole other series of things we can talk about, depending on what your tolerance is, because of what people have done since. But to answer your question, let me just show you two or three things. This is a little bit. This is a picture of Shriver.

[Assistant] Yes indeed.

[User] In India, when he came through in May.

[Assistant] May of ‘61.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's a whole other series of things we can talk about, depending on what your tolerance is, because of what people have done since. But to answer your question, let me just show you two or three things. This is a little bit. This is a picture of Shriver.

[Assistant] Yes indeed.

[User] In India, when he came through in May.

[Assistant] May of ‘61.

[User] The fellow on the left is David McEachran. The fellow on the right is Harris Wofford. This is Joe Whitter, who was in the Peace Corps staff but later became the head of AID. This is, I think, Roger Ernst, who was the American Foreign Service officer at the time. This is when he was leaving India, having talked with Nehru and on his way to Karachi to talk with the Pakistanis.

[Assistant] This is a wonderful picture, photograph.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In India, when he came through in May.

[Assistant] May of ‘61.

[User] The fellow on the left is David McEachran. The fellow on the right is Harris Wofford. This is Joe Whitter, who was in the Peace Corps staff but later became the head of AID. This is, I think, Roger Ernst, who was the American Foreign Service officer at the time. This is when he was leaving India, having talked with Nehru and on his way to Karachi to talk with the Pakistanis.

[Assistant] This is a wonderful picture, photograph.

[User] And again, I've got the citations with that.

[Assistant] The identification of everybody. It's wonderful to see a young Harris Wofford. Wow, very vibrant as he still is in his 90s.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The fellow on the left is David McEachran. The fellow on the right is Harris Wofford. This is Joe Whitter, who was in the Peace Corps staff but later became the head of AID. This is, I think, Roger Ernst, who was the American Foreign Service officer at the time. This is when he was leaving India, having talked with Nehru and on his way to Karachi to talk with the Pakistanis.

[Assistant] This is a wonderful picture, photograph.

[User] And again, I've got the citations with that.

[Assistant] The identification of everybody. It's wonderful to see a young Harris Wofford. Wow, very vibrant as he still is in his 90s.

[User] And here's an example of, there's the accused. That was our COS conference. COS being close of service.

[Assistant] So here we have, I'm looking at the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And again, I've got the citations with that.

[Assistant] The identification of everybody. It's wonderful to see a young Harris Wofford. Wow, very vibrant as he still is in his 90s.

[User] And here's an example of, there's the accused. That was our COS conference. COS being close of service.

[Assistant] So here we have, I'm looking at the.

[User] That's the beginning.

[Assistant] The beginning picture with their holding a Pan American Airways welcoming banner. And now I'm looking at them looking much more relaxed and really acculturated. I see them wearing the costumes of their counterparts in East Pakistan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And here's an example of, there's the accused. That was our COS conference. COS being close of service.

[Assistant] So here we have, I'm looking at the.

[User] That's the beginning.

[Assistant] The beginning picture with their holding a Pan American Airways welcoming banner. And now I'm looking at them looking much more relaxed and really acculturated. I see them wearing the costumes of their counterparts in East Pakistan.

[User] And it was also our Bengali staff colleagues that was like our accountant and or a couple of secretaries in the office, staff and such. This was the 62 year old who I told you, the WAC officer.

[Assistant] Oh and is this she, right there? Right there. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's the beginning.

[Assistant] The beginning picture with their holding a Pan American Airways welcoming banner. And now I'm looking at them looking much more relaxed and really acculturated. I see them wearing the costumes of their counterparts in East Pakistan.

[User] And it was also our Bengali staff colleagues that was like our accountant and or a couple of secretaries in the office, staff and such. This was the 62 year old who I told you, the WAC officer.

[Assistant] Oh and is this she, right there? Right there. Yes.

[User] And then I'm up there and then Paul Slawson is here, my colleague.

[Assistant] So you're up here with the number one in front of you. So I know it just so happens that it's wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was also our Bengali staff colleagues that was like our accountant and or a couple of secretaries in the office, staff and such. This was the 62 year old who I told you, the WAC officer.

[Assistant] Oh and is this she, right there? Right there. Yes.

[User] And then I'm up there and then Paul Slawson is here, my colleague.

[Assistant] So you're up here with the number one in front of you. So I know it just so happens that it's wonderful.

[User] Just for just for history's sake, there's some later ones. That was our gathering. I think that was a thirty-fifth anniversary gathering we had up in Putney, Vermont. At least that's these are some of our Bengali colleagues. This is the fellow I'm saying I mentioned. He was one of our faculty members at the academy. And he has since become a quite a star in his own life. That's his wife. And then he was another one of our faculty members who became an ambassador. There's me. A doctor who worked with us and such.

[Assistant] I think you were looking a little younger then too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I'm up there and then Paul Slawson is here, my colleague.

[Assistant] So you're up here with the number one in front of you. So I know it just so happens that it's wonderful.

[User] Just for just for history's sake, there's some later ones. That was our gathering. I think that was a thirty-fifth anniversary gathering we had up in Putney, Vermont. At least that's these are some of our Bengali colleagues. This is the fellow I'm saying I mentioned. He was one of our faculty members at the academy. And he has since become a quite a star in his own life. That's his wife. And then he was another one of our faculty members who became an ambassador. There's me. A doctor who worked with us and such.

[Assistant] I think you were looking a little younger then too.

[User] Yes. This is, I think the forty-fifth that's in Washington, D.C. That's our group of ragtag characters, and that is Muhammad Yunus, the founder of the Grameen Bank, who joined us at the time. This is our gathering, our fourth-fifth.

[Assistant] This might be thirty-fifth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just for just for history's sake, there's some later ones. That was our gathering. I think that was a thirty-fifth anniversary gathering we had up in Putney, Vermont. At least that's these are some of our Bengali colleagues. This is the fellow I'm saying I mentioned. He was one of our faculty members at the academy. And he has since become a quite a star in his own life. That's his wife. And then he was another one of our faculty members who became an ambassador. There's me. A doctor who worked with us and such.

[Assistant] I think you were looking a little younger then too.

[User] Yes. This is, I think the forty-fifth that's in Washington, D.C. That's our group of ragtag characters, and that is Muhammad Yunus, the founder of the Grameen Bank, who joined us at the time. This is our gathering, our fourth-fifth.

[Assistant] This might be thirty-fifth.

[User] I think the thirty-fifth.

[Assistant] I recognize these T-shirts. Yeah I have one like it. I think it was from the thirty-fifth. Now which is you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. This is, I think the forty-fifth that's in Washington, D.C. That's our group of ragtag characters, and that is Muhammad Yunus, the founder of the Grameen Bank, who joined us at the time. This is our gathering, our fourth-fifth.

[Assistant] This might be thirty-fifth.

[User] I think the thirty-fifth.

[Assistant] I recognize these T-shirts. Yeah I have one like it. I think it was from the thirty-fifth. Now which is you?

[User] Oh yes, I'm there looking very unattractive.

[Assistant] But still among the taller of them all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I'm there looking very unattractive.

[Assistant] But still among the taller of them all.

[User] That was a gathering. We had at.

[Assistant] In 2006.

[User] In Helena, St. Helena, California. And that was our director, King Berlew, I mentioned, lovely guy who’s still around. Jim Moody was our, he came out of that. That was one of our colleagues in the embassy who are a great help. Ruth Downing was a volunteer who helped us. And she became later a Peace Corps deputy director in Thailand. And this is where, I had this shirt here, it’s our Bengali shirts.

[Assistant] Right. Isn't that great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good, well I’ll be delighted also.

[Assistant] This is Pat Wand and Bob Terry has remembered one more thing he wants to add to this recording.

[User] Well, actually, there’s two.

[Assistant] You go for it!

[User] I had a role in helping to start the Massachusetts Service Corps in Boston in 1965. And then I, the experiment to serve and help returning Peace Corps volunteers created an academic institution called the School for International Training, which became a certified academic institution, a master's degree level. And that was designed specifically. I was part of that team. I was not the leader. My colleagues were much more senior to me, but that was to try and help returning volunteers come back to this country. Number one, reflect and think about what they've been doing and how they're doing. And number two, to be qualified sort of in terms of credentials for with your language training or people management kinds of skills.

[Assistant] I know graduates of that program, the master's degree program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Just one more switch throw tonight before you go to sleep.” That’s how they couched it. The air-to-ground is going everywhere in the world, so it was great. That was 16, and that’s not the only thing I remember, but the hardware’s working good, the Saturns were working good, confidence is great. Along in there, somewhere between this time, we ordered 10 more Saturn Vs. This is also the time, in ’71, where Congress said, “That’s it,” OMB [Office of Management and Budget] somehow, Vietnam [War] is getting bigger and bigger and everything. So, when [President Richard M.] Nixon came in ’68, I always hated him the rest of the time because he didn’t let [President Lyndon B.] Johnson at least go out on the aircraft carrier to see them come back, because Johnson is who was instrumental in the space program. But Johnson had this great meeting with them later, so that worked out. OMB said, “No more after 17.” So, that left three Saturn Vs left over, and then they canceled the order for building any more. That contract actually never occurred.

[Assistant] You mentioned you were working on Skylab, but this was also about the time the announcement was made that the Shuttle Program had been approved by the President.

[User] Right. He put it together at that time, I think it was ’73 or something like that when he said, “We’ll do this Shuttle.” That’s why the design kind of froze way back in the ’70s, that’s why we have such—not terrible computers, but they were very early, design-wise. The whole Shuttle computer is 128k.

[Assistant] Yes, so there was a lot going on.

[User] Just right there, everywhere, it’s going on everywhere.

[Assistant] During that whole time-span.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, early on. This one, I had a lot to do with it, yes. The guys who put it together, though, one thing you said, and I’ll fix it there, it says “Singer” because it was not—it was Link, all that time. About this time is when Singer bought the company, and there was something called General Precision was in even before that. That name, you might not have ever heard, but that, who owned Link—I met Ed Link [company founder] down one time in Florida, and he was diverted from that whole thing. He had a submarine; he was doing deep sea diving, it was like a hobby, but he had his own Alvin-style machine at Fort Pierce in Florida. Then, the Link name started disappearing into these other companies, until it became Raytheon, like it is today.

[Assistant] Was there a CAE [Electronics, CAE-Link] in there somewhere, too?

[User] There was a CAE, yes. Even now Link has actually got two entities: one is Raytheon, and another one is [L-3 Communications]. There’s another name like that that’s up in Binghamton, New York, still.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s a history all by itself.

[User] It is, it really is.

[Assistant] Talk, if you can, maybe just the last few minutes, about the environment here at JSC. You’ve got a major program closing down, you’ve got a program that’s up and running, you’ve got now the probability that we’re going to be working with Russians, when all these years you had not thought about working for Russians or with Russians. Then, of course, in the background somewhere, people are starting to design the Shuttle. Is it an interesting time among the people that are working here, or is it an unsettled time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and it’s nicer when it’s new because you couldn’t have somebody saying, “Oh, nobody would do that,” because they didn’t know how to do it, so they just stood out of the way and let us do it. Now, since we’ve tried doing things, it’s like, here’s this whole group of people where we’ve got capsules, three or four companies doing capsules, another three or four to do the wing vehicles. I’d go with the wing one all the time—I like SpaceX and I like the way the company works, but capsules, to me, I don’t like parachutes. I wouldn’t jump out of an airplane unless it was burning, you know what I mean? Coming down after three years being to Mars, I’d hate to see the parachutes come out. If anything else, I’d go into orbit and have another vehicle take me home. Slow down and stay in orbit, and I’d get a ride home like an old gentleman.

[Assistant] That’s right. “Driver, please.”

[User] Exactly. Have some young buck that’s going up and down all the time and is good at it. It’s like if you go to the doctor, you want not somebody that’s new at this business; I want somebody who does three or four of these operations a week.

[Assistant] That’s it, yes. Proficient.

[User] Exactly, exactly.

[Assistant] This might be a good place to stop and we can pick up and talk about working with the Russians, and then how you moved into Shuttle, and we’ll squeeze the Skylab in between there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not in the Navy as a photographer; I was a flyboy—navigator and gunner on a torpedo bomber in the Pacific, flying off a jeep aircraft carrier.

[Assistant] So you came back to Newport News, Virginia and opened your own studio?

[User] After my time in the Navy I was accepted at the Southwest Photographic Arts Institute in Dallas, Texas. That is a subsidiary of Southern Methodist University. I studied there for two and one-half years then entered into a partnership and opened a portrait and commercial photographic studio. The gentleman I opened the studio with had been a photographer in the Signal Corp in the Army and had a wealth of experience. The partnership lasted for a number of years until I bought him out.\n\n In 1950 I had an offer to go to the Naval Weapons Station in Yorktown, Virginia as a photographer, which I accepted. I kept the studio going with good help and soon had a call from the Army Transportation Center in Fort Eustis, Virginia as a photographer. I worked there for a number of years then received another call from the Naval Weapons Center asking if I would come back as a Photographic Supervisor. This I accepted.\n\n About five years later I received a call from my friend, Gene Edmonds who wanted to know if I would be interested in coming to work at NASA and joining the space task group and relocating to Houston, Texas. If interested, he would set me up for an interview with John Brinkmann, Division Chief of the new Photographic Division of the Space Task Group in Houston.

[Assistant] He contacted you to be Chief of the Laboratory Branch?

[User] No, I was contacted a month later to have an interview with John Brinkmann. The interview went well and I was offered a position to help set up a photographic laboratory that would be second to none in the country with my main task to support the landing of a man on the Moon project. After a few weeks and sleepless nights, we [Judy, my spouse, and I] decided to accept the position and have never regretted the move to Houston.

[Assistant] Was working in a laboratory something you were more interested in than taking photographs, etc.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After my time in the Navy I was accepted at the Southwest Photographic Arts Institute in Dallas, Texas. That is a subsidiary of Southern Methodist University. I studied there for two and one-half years then entered into a partnership and opened a portrait and commercial photographic studio. The gentleman I opened the studio with had been a photographer in the Signal Corp in the Army and had a wealth of experience. The partnership lasted for a number of years until I bought him out.\n\n In 1950 I had an offer to go to the Naval Weapons Station in Yorktown, Virginia as a photographer, which I accepted. I kept the studio going with good help and soon had a call from the Army Transportation Center in Fort Eustis, Virginia as a photographer. I worked there for a number of years then received another call from the Naval Weapons Center asking if I would come back as a Photographic Supervisor. This I accepted.\n\n About five years later I received a call from my friend, Gene Edmonds who wanted to know if I would be interested in coming to work at NASA and joining the space task group and relocating to Houston, Texas. If interested, he would set me up for an interview with John Brinkmann, Division Chief of the new Photographic Division of the Space Task Group in Houston.

[Assistant] He contacted you to be Chief of the Laboratory Branch?

[User] No, I was contacted a month later to have an interview with John Brinkmann. The interview went well and I was offered a position to help set up a photographic laboratory that would be second to none in the country with my main task to support the landing of a man on the Moon project. After a few weeks and sleepless nights, we [Judy, my spouse, and I] decided to accept the position and have never regretted the move to Houston.

[Assistant] Was working in a laboratory something you were more interested in than taking photographs, etc.?

[User] Both. I feel that you need a good background in laboratory procedures as well as taking pictures. To have a well rounded knowledge of both departments is to ones advantage.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, were they taking cameras into space when John Glenn flew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was contacted a month later to have an interview with John Brinkmann. The interview went well and I was offered a position to help set up a photographic laboratory that would be second to none in the country with my main task to support the landing of a man on the Moon project. After a few weeks and sleepless nights, we [Judy, my spouse, and I] decided to accept the position and have never regretted the move to Houston.

[Assistant] Was working in a laboratory something you were more interested in than taking photographs, etc.?

[User] Both. I feel that you need a good background in laboratory procedures as well as taking pictures. To have a well rounded knowledge of both departments is to ones advantage.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, were they taking cameras into space when John Glenn flew?

[User] John Glenn had a small hand held camera with him and took a few pictures of the Earth using color film. The short duration of flight restricted his time to concentrate on photography.

[Assistant] Were they starting out with just black and white or did they use color film that early?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both. I feel that you need a good background in laboratory procedures as well as taking pictures. To have a well rounded knowledge of both departments is to ones advantage.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, were they taking cameras into space when John Glenn flew?

[User] John Glenn had a small hand held camera with him and took a few pictures of the Earth using color film. The short duration of flight restricted his time to concentrate on photography.

[Assistant] Were they starting out with just black and white or did they use color film that early?

[User] Color transparency film was used on an unmanned flight, MA-1, in July 1960 for engineering study; cameras mounted inside spacecraft used black and white film for instrument panel documentation. Color transparency film was used throughout the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs and black and white film was used mostly for special tasks.

[Assistant] You were talking about equipment and the Hasselblad camera. Was the camera specially designed for astronauts to use on missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] John Glenn had a small hand held camera with him and took a few pictures of the Earth using color film. The short duration of flight restricted his time to concentrate on photography.

[Assistant] Were they starting out with just black and white or did they use color film that early?

[User] Color transparency film was used on an unmanned flight, MA-1, in July 1960 for engineering study; cameras mounted inside spacecraft used black and white film for instrument panel documentation. Color transparency film was used throughout the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs and black and white film was used mostly for special tasks.

[Assistant] You were talking about equipment and the Hasselblad camera. Was the camera specially designed for astronauts to use on missions?

[User] The Hasselblad camera was well designed and met NASA's requirements for flight. The Hasselblad camera was modified many times from the time it started flying during the early Gemini Program in 1965. Each camera was definitely improved along the line with a variety of lens, larger film magazines and ease of handling. The astronauts relied on the operation and reliability of the Hasselblad through the Apollo and Space Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] And the film also? Was it special?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Color transparency film was used on an unmanned flight, MA-1, in July 1960 for engineering study; cameras mounted inside spacecraft used black and white film for instrument panel documentation. Color transparency film was used throughout the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs and black and white film was used mostly for special tasks.

[Assistant] You were talking about equipment and the Hasselblad camera. Was the camera specially designed for astronauts to use on missions?

[User] The Hasselblad camera was well designed and met NASA's requirements for flight. The Hasselblad camera was modified many times from the time it started flying during the early Gemini Program in 1965. Each camera was definitely improved along the line with a variety of lens, larger film magazines and ease of handling. The astronauts relied on the operation and reliability of the Hasselblad through the Apollo and Space Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] And the film also? Was it special?

[User] Yes, the film was a special order from Eastman Kodak. The film that you purchase from a local camera shop is about 5 to 7 millimeters thickness. The film Kodak specially made for NASA was 2.5 millimeter thickness or about like cellophane. The reason for the requirement is the limited storage space in the spacecraft, the film weight and the film capacity on a roll which is increased about 40% by using thinner film. This type of film was used on the 16, 35 and 70 mm cameras on all missions from Gemini through Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] When astronauts first started taking cameras in flight, did they go through special training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Hasselblad camera was well designed and met NASA's requirements for flight. The Hasselblad camera was modified many times from the time it started flying during the early Gemini Program in 1965. Each camera was definitely improved along the line with a variety of lens, larger film magazines and ease of handling. The astronauts relied on the operation and reliability of the Hasselblad through the Apollo and Space Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] And the film also? Was it special?

[User] Yes, the film was a special order from Eastman Kodak. The film that you purchase from a local camera shop is about 5 to 7 millimeters thickness. The film Kodak specially made for NASA was 2.5 millimeter thickness or about like cellophane. The reason for the requirement is the limited storage space in the spacecraft, the film weight and the film capacity on a roll which is increased about 40% by using thinner film. This type of film was used on the 16, 35 and 70 mm cameras on all missions from Gemini through Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] When astronauts first started taking cameras in flight, did they go through special training?

[User] Yes, there is a section at the Center that handles astronaut training. Our laboratory has a good working relationship with the training section.

[Assistant] Since the thin film is a different type, did it require a different processor or special handling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the film was a special order from Eastman Kodak. The film that you purchase from a local camera shop is about 5 to 7 millimeters thickness. The film Kodak specially made for NASA was 2.5 millimeter thickness or about like cellophane. The reason for the requirement is the limited storage space in the spacecraft, the film weight and the film capacity on a roll which is increased about 40% by using thinner film. This type of film was used on the 16, 35 and 70 mm cameras on all missions from Gemini through Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] When astronauts first started taking cameras in flight, did they go through special training?

[User] Yes, there is a section at the Center that handles astronaut training. Our laboratory has a good working relationship with the training section.

[Assistant] Since the thin film is a different type, did it require a different processor or special handling?

[User] The thin base film developed by Kodak is on Mylar base. It is very strong; it's tough and can cause problems during processing. Our technicians are specially trained in handling this material. All thin-base film that we use is processed in-house and not sent off site. Our processors did not require modifications to handle the thin base film. Our technicians and special film handling was the key to our success.

[Assistant] Was this something that was developed for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there is a section at the Center that handles astronaut training. Our laboratory has a good working relationship with the training section.

[Assistant] Since the thin film is a different type, did it require a different processor or special handling?

[User] The thin base film developed by Kodak is on Mylar base. It is very strong; it's tough and can cause problems during processing. Our technicians are specially trained in handling this material. All thin-base film that we use is processed in-house and not sent off site. Our processors did not require modifications to handle the thin base film. Our technicians and special film handling was the key to our success.

[Assistant] Was this something that was developed for NASA?

[User] Yes, it was developed for NASA in the color coded Mylar base film emulsion that was requested.

[Assistant] So there was not that thin base film before you needed it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The thin base film developed by Kodak is on Mylar base. It is very strong; it's tough and can cause problems during processing. Our technicians are specially trained in handling this material. All thin-base film that we use is processed in-house and not sent off site. Our processors did not require modifications to handle the thin base film. Our technicians and special film handling was the key to our success.

[Assistant] Was this something that was developed for NASA?

[User] Yes, it was developed for NASA in the color coded Mylar base film emulsion that was requested.

[Assistant] So there was not that thin base film before you needed it?

[User] Yes, there was a thin base film used by the Department of Defense on special tasks. [Not released on the open market.]

[Assistant] You had special techniques as far as processing thin-base film?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was developed for NASA in the color coded Mylar base film emulsion that was requested.

[Assistant] So there was not that thin base film before you needed it?

[User] Yes, there was a thin base film used by the Department of Defense on special tasks. [Not released on the open market.]

[Assistant] You had special techniques as far as processing thin-base film?

[User] There was not any difference as far as chemicals were concerned - it was the same chemistry. One main concern in processing this type film would be in the tracking of the material through the processor and keeping the film aligned.

[Assistant] Any resistance when you first started with NASA as far as putting cameras on board with the astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was a thin base film used by the Department of Defense on special tasks. [Not released on the open market.]

[Assistant] You had special techniques as far as processing thin-base film?

[User] There was not any difference as far as chemicals were concerned - it was the same chemistry. One main concern in processing this type film would be in the tracking of the material through the processor and keeping the film aligned.

[Assistant] Any resistance when you first started with NASA as far as putting cameras on board with the astronauts?

[User] In the early days of space flight I have heard that there was some resistance in taking cameras on board during flight. This was soon dropped and I never heard any more about it. Wally Schirra, during the Mercury program in 1962, took his own Hasselblad camera on board. It was modified for flight. He took photographs that were good and it helped pave the way for the Hasselblad camera.

[Assistant] A couple of other photographers mentioned that the astronauts enjoyed taking pictures and wanted to bring back the best photos possible?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was not any difference as far as chemicals were concerned - it was the same chemistry. One main concern in processing this type film would be in the tracking of the material through the processor and keeping the film aligned.

[Assistant] Any resistance when you first started with NASA as far as putting cameras on board with the astronauts?

[User] In the early days of space flight I have heard that there was some resistance in taking cameras on board during flight. This was soon dropped and I never heard any more about it. Wally Schirra, during the Mercury program in 1962, took his own Hasselblad camera on board. It was modified for flight. He took photographs that were good and it helped pave the way for the Hasselblad camera.

[Assistant] A couple of other photographers mentioned that the astronauts enjoyed taking pictures and wanted to bring back the best photos possible?

[User] I feel that the astronauts enjoyed taking pictures in flight. When they would view the pictures after flight some had more photo coverage than others. This restricted them during press conferences, by not having as much material to show from the flight. I feel that it started a friendly competition between crews—on trying to take the best pictures they could [such as those covering Earth, crew pictures during flight and Moon walks on the lunar surface].

[Assistant] How did the Russian photography compare to the ones we were taking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the early days of space flight I have heard that there was some resistance in taking cameras on board during flight. This was soon dropped and I never heard any more about it. Wally Schirra, during the Mercury program in 1962, took his own Hasselblad camera on board. It was modified for flight. He took photographs that were good and it helped pave the way for the Hasselblad camera.

[Assistant] A couple of other photographers mentioned that the astronauts enjoyed taking pictures and wanted to bring back the best photos possible?

[User] I feel that the astronauts enjoyed taking pictures in flight. When they would view the pictures after flight some had more photo coverage than others. This restricted them during press conferences, by not having as much material to show from the flight. I feel that it started a friendly competition between crews—on trying to take the best pictures they could [such as those covering Earth, crew pictures during flight and Moon walks on the lunar surface].

[Assistant] How did the Russian photography compare to the ones we were taking?

[User] They did a fair job in the early stages of the program. As the program progressed, and with newer cameras and training, the quality of their finished product was much improved.

[Assistant] In a lab there are so many variables when you’re developing film as far as the amount of light and the chemicals, and the astronauts were coming back with photographs from space, which no one had ever taken photographs of before, and then later on, the Moon. How did you determine in the lab the correct exposures to make sure that the colors were as true as possible to what they really were taking the photos of, since you had nothing to compare it with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A procedure was established at a high level that all material and astronauts returning from the Moon would go in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory under careful medical observation until 21 days had passed from the time the crew lifted off the lunar surface. Any item drawn from the LRL sooner would have to go through a decontamination process. Crew Systems Division established a process that items leaving the LRL early would go through an autoclave exposed to a dry gas vapor designed to decontaminate the film and other products as required. This procedure worked with no problems.

[Assistant] You showed us a picture of the film vault that housed the original film. When film was developed, were prints made from those negatives or did you create some masters to print from?

[User] From the original film, duplicate masters were produced and the original film secured. We tried not to use the original film unless special requirements were needed.. From the masters, screening prints were made for the Public Affairs Office to view and select views for news releases. Duplicate negatives were made and used for printing; for example 8x10 color pictures or larger, color transparencies, slides, etc. Much of the same procedure is used when processing and duplicating motion picture film.

[Assistant] Who developed the first prints from the Moon? Was it just your group that worked together and did it?

[User] All of the original film that went to the Moon was brought back to Building 8 at JSC and processed, duplicated and printed. Requirements from Public Affairs were met and the final products sent to the world. The technicians working for me were highly trained and skilled professionals. During the entire Apollo program with missions going to the Moon, my technicians never lost a single foot of imagery.

[Assistant] After prints were made the public wanted to see the results. Was it your group that decided what prints go to Public Affairs to be distributed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the original film, duplicate masters were produced and the original film secured. We tried not to use the original film unless special requirements were needed.. From the masters, screening prints were made for the Public Affairs Office to view and select views for news releases. Duplicate negatives were made and used for printing; for example 8x10 color pictures or larger, color transparencies, slides, etc. Much of the same procedure is used when processing and duplicating motion picture film.

[Assistant] Who developed the first prints from the Moon? Was it just your group that worked together and did it?

[User] All of the original film that went to the Moon was brought back to Building 8 at JSC and processed, duplicated and printed. Requirements from Public Affairs were met and the final products sent to the world. The technicians working for me were highly trained and skilled professionals. During the entire Apollo program with missions going to the Moon, my technicians never lost a single foot of imagery.

[Assistant] After prints were made the public wanted to see the results. Was it your group that decided what prints go to Public Affairs to be distributed?

[User] After screening prints were produced, Public Affairs viewed the film and made the final selections for release to the world. During mission time, Public Affairs is on a standby mode to view flight material. Large quantities of prints, transparencies and motion picture footage is printed on a rush basis for distribution.

[Assistant] What type of process was used to identify the photos once they came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of the original film that went to the Moon was brought back to Building 8 at JSC and processed, duplicated and printed. Requirements from Public Affairs were met and the final products sent to the world. The technicians working for me were highly trained and skilled professionals. During the entire Apollo program with missions going to the Moon, my technicians never lost a single foot of imagery.

[Assistant] After prints were made the public wanted to see the results. Was it your group that decided what prints go to Public Affairs to be distributed?

[User] After screening prints were produced, Public Affairs viewed the film and made the final selections for release to the world. During mission time, Public Affairs is on a standby mode to view flight material. Large quantities of prints, transparencies and motion picture footage is printed on a rush basis for distribution.

[Assistant] What type of process was used to identify the photos once they came back?

[User] We have two people assigned to our facility that are experts in geography and location of landmass. These people identify each frame of film exposed in the still camera. This caption materiel goes with the final product to Public Affairs for identification with the caption printed on the back of each photograph.

[Assistant] What was your area of responsibility for motion picture processing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After screening prints were produced, Public Affairs viewed the film and made the final selections for release to the world. During mission time, Public Affairs is on a standby mode to view flight material. Large quantities of prints, transparencies and motion picture footage is printed on a rush basis for distribution.

[Assistant] What type of process was used to identify the photos once they came back?

[User] We have two people assigned to our facility that are experts in geography and location of landmass. These people identify each frame of film exposed in the still camera. This caption materiel goes with the final product to Public Affairs for identification with the caption printed on the back of each photograph.

[Assistant] What was your area of responsibility for motion picture processing?

[User] My area was responsible for motion picture processing including all on board photography, engineering tests throughout the Center using high speed cameras, processing and duplication of documentary photography and other requirements of the Center for Motion picture requests. Motion picture coverage of launches is the responsibility of Cape Kennedy.

[Assistant] What type of cameras did the astronauts take with them in Mercury, Gemini and Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have two people assigned to our facility that are experts in geography and location of landmass. These people identify each frame of film exposed in the still camera. This caption materiel goes with the final product to Public Affairs for identification with the caption printed on the back of each photograph.

[Assistant] What was your area of responsibility for motion picture processing?

[User] My area was responsible for motion picture processing including all on board photography, engineering tests throughout the Center using high speed cameras, processing and duplication of documentary photography and other requirements of the Center for Motion picture requests. Motion picture coverage of launches is the responsibility of Cape Kennedy.

[Assistant] What type of cameras did the astronauts take with them in Mercury, Gemini and Apollo?

[User] Cameras used during missions include the Maurer [data acquisition]; Milliken; modified Hasselblad; 35mm Nikon 500; Zeiss Contanex 35mm; and McDonnell 16mm cameras. These cameras used thin base film developed the same way as other on-board cameras. The thin base 16mm film used on the motion picture cameras increased the film load from 100 feet to approximately 140 feet.

[Assistant] During Skylab you mentioned there were thousands of feet of film exposed. Was there any concern about radiation or that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My area was responsible for motion picture processing including all on board photography, engineering tests throughout the Center using high speed cameras, processing and duplication of documentary photography and other requirements of the Center for Motion picture requests. Motion picture coverage of launches is the responsibility of Cape Kennedy.

[Assistant] What type of cameras did the astronauts take with them in Mercury, Gemini and Apollo?

[User] Cameras used during missions include the Maurer [data acquisition]; Milliken; modified Hasselblad; 35mm Nikon 500; Zeiss Contanex 35mm; and McDonnell 16mm cameras. These cameras used thin base film developed the same way as other on-board cameras. The thin base 16mm film used on the motion picture cameras increased the film load from 100 feet to approximately 140 feet.

[Assistant] During Skylab you mentioned there were thousands of feet of film exposed. Was there any concern about radiation or that sort of thing?

[User] A special film vault was designed to handle all on-board flight film to reduce possible radiation. Radiation was noticed on some of the film, which reduced the brilliant image; however, all the frames of the film were useable and no major problems were encountered.

[Assistant] Between ASTP and the Shuttle Program there was a period of time. What did your office do during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cameras used during missions include the Maurer [data acquisition]; Milliken; modified Hasselblad; 35mm Nikon 500; Zeiss Contanex 35mm; and McDonnell 16mm cameras. These cameras used thin base film developed the same way as other on-board cameras. The thin base 16mm film used on the motion picture cameras increased the film load from 100 feet to approximately 140 feet.

[Assistant] During Skylab you mentioned there were thousands of feet of film exposed. Was there any concern about radiation or that sort of thing?

[User] A special film vault was designed to handle all on-board flight film to reduce possible radiation. Radiation was noticed on some of the film, which reduced the brilliant image; however, all the frames of the film were useable and no major problems were encountered.

[Assistant] Between ASTP and the Shuttle Program there was a period of time. What did your office do during that time period?

[User] The laboratory was responsible for printing thousands of color and black and white prints, slides, and viewgraphs required to be printed from past missions. Processing and duplication of all Earth Resources Aircraft photography. Providing rectification of images for mosaics in production of maps. Responsible for color infrared Ektachrome processing of Earth looking photography using film 8 inches in width and 200 feet or longer in length, copy work of all sizes and precision slides used in Mission Control by Flight Controllers. Anything photographic ended up in our laboratory. In the meantime, my duties included staff meetings on equipment needs, status of laboratory personnel, budget requests, weekly and monthly reporting, contractor in-house reports and training of personnel to name just a few things. I also delegated authority to my supervisors, however on the bottom line, "the buck stops here!"

[Assistant] With the beginning the Shuttle Program how did this affect your lab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A special film vault was designed to handle all on-board flight film to reduce possible radiation. Radiation was noticed on some of the film, which reduced the brilliant image; however, all the frames of the film were useable and no major problems were encountered.

[Assistant] Between ASTP and the Shuttle Program there was a period of time. What did your office do during that time period?

[User] The laboratory was responsible for printing thousands of color and black and white prints, slides, and viewgraphs required to be printed from past missions. Processing and duplication of all Earth Resources Aircraft photography. Providing rectification of images for mosaics in production of maps. Responsible for color infrared Ektachrome processing of Earth looking photography using film 8 inches in width and 200 feet or longer in length, copy work of all sizes and precision slides used in Mission Control by Flight Controllers. Anything photographic ended up in our laboratory. In the meantime, my duties included staff meetings on equipment needs, status of laboratory personnel, budget requests, weekly and monthly reporting, contractor in-house reports and training of personnel to name just a few things. I also delegated authority to my supervisors, however on the bottom line, "the buck stops here!"

[Assistant] With the beginning the Shuttle Program how did this affect your lab?

[User] To go from one program to another, especially the Apollo Program, we planed to update some of our processors and printers to keep current in the photographic field. By keeping our facility up to date, I feel we were in good position to go from the Gemini to Apollo program without too much change in our equipment, etc. However with a new program I looked for new requirements that would be coming in.

[Assistant] Were you involved in approach and landing tests of the Shuttle or any photography with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The laboratory was responsible for printing thousands of color and black and white prints, slides, and viewgraphs required to be printed from past missions. Processing and duplication of all Earth Resources Aircraft photography. Providing rectification of images for mosaics in production of maps. Responsible for color infrared Ektachrome processing of Earth looking photography using film 8 inches in width and 200 feet or longer in length, copy work of all sizes and precision slides used in Mission Control by Flight Controllers. Anything photographic ended up in our laboratory. In the meantime, my duties included staff meetings on equipment needs, status of laboratory personnel, budget requests, weekly and monthly reporting, contractor in-house reports and training of personnel to name just a few things. I also delegated authority to my supervisors, however on the bottom line, "the buck stops here!"

[Assistant] With the beginning the Shuttle Program how did this affect your lab?

[User] To go from one program to another, especially the Apollo Program, we planed to update some of our processors and printers to keep current in the photographic field. By keeping our facility up to date, I feel we were in good position to go from the Gemini to Apollo program without too much change in our equipment, etc. However with a new program I looked for new requirements that would be coming in.

[Assistant] Were you involved in approach and landing tests of the Shuttle or any photography with that?

[User] That sounds like an Edwards Air Force Base [California] requirement. Although during mission time when the Shuttle lands at Edwards, we do send photographers to cover the event and process and print this material as required.

[Assistant] You started with the John Glenn recovery. What other missions did you support or travel to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To go from one program to another, especially the Apollo Program, we planed to update some of our processors and printers to keep current in the photographic field. By keeping our facility up to date, I feel we were in good position to go from the Gemini to Apollo program without too much change in our equipment, etc. However with a new program I looked for new requirements that would be coming in.

[Assistant] Were you involved in approach and landing tests of the Shuttle or any photography with that?

[User] That sounds like an Edwards Air Force Base [California] requirement. Although during mission time when the Shuttle lands at Edwards, we do send photographers to cover the event and process and print this material as required.

[Assistant] You started with the John Glenn recovery. What other missions did you support or travel to?

[User] Other than John Glenn's recovery, I did help cover the [L.] Gordon Cooper [Jr.] recovery on MA9. My travel on missions came to a stop with the new buildings under construction, laboratory in the works, the hiring of new technicians, new product briefings by vendors and monitoring equipment under construction at various manufacturing sites.

[Assistant] How many people did you have working during this time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That sounds like an Edwards Air Force Base [California] requirement. Although during mission time when the Shuttle lands at Edwards, we do send photographers to cover the event and process and print this material as required.

[Assistant] You started with the John Glenn recovery. What other missions did you support or travel to?

[User] Other than John Glenn's recovery, I did help cover the [L.] Gordon Cooper [Jr.] recovery on MA9. My travel on missions came to a stop with the new buildings under construction, laboratory in the works, the hiring of new technicians, new product briefings by vendors and monitoring equipment under construction at various manufacturing sites.

[Assistant] How many people did you have working during this time period?

[User] During Apollo, I had 140 people in the laboratory—this was a two shift operation. When I inherited the television branch, the number of personnel for both areas was about 200 to 225.

[Assistant] At what time did television come in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than John Glenn's recovery, I did help cover the [L.] Gordon Cooper [Jr.] recovery on MA9. My travel on missions came to a stop with the new buildings under construction, laboratory in the works, the hiring of new technicians, new product briefings by vendors and monitoring equipment under construction at various manufacturing sites.

[Assistant] How many people did you have working during this time period?

[User] During Apollo, I had 140 people in the laboratory—this was a two shift operation. When I inherited the television branch, the number of personnel for both areas was about 200 to 225.

[Assistant] At what time did television come in?

[User] Television started on a limited basis during the latter part of the Mercury or early Gemini Programs, about 1964. Taft Broadcasting Company from Houston aided us in the startup and later were our prime contractor for television.

[Assistant] In 1977 your position changed. You became Chief of the Photographic Processing and AV Services Branch. Did your job change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During Apollo, I had 140 people in the laboratory—this was a two shift operation. When I inherited the television branch, the number of personnel for both areas was about 200 to 225.

[Assistant] At what time did television come in?

[User] Television started on a limited basis during the latter part of the Mercury or early Gemini Programs, about 1964. Taft Broadcasting Company from Houston aided us in the startup and later were our prime contractor for television.

[Assistant] In 1977 your position changed. You became Chief of the Photographic Processing and AV Services Branch. Did your job change?

[User] Other than assuming more responsibility the overall job did not change noticeably. I still kept a hand on mission requirements.

[Assistant] Once the Shuttle Program started were they taking the camera and bringing the film back to your laboratory or was it during your career that digital technology came in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Television started on a limited basis during the latter part of the Mercury or early Gemini Programs, about 1964. Taft Broadcasting Company from Houston aided us in the startup and later were our prime contractor for television.

[Assistant] In 1977 your position changed. You became Chief of the Photographic Processing and AV Services Branch. Did your job change?

[User] Other than assuming more responsibility the overall job did not change noticeably. I still kept a hand on mission requirements.

[Assistant] Once the Shuttle Program started were they taking the camera and bringing the film back to your laboratory or was it during your career that digital technology came in?

[User] During the beginning of the Space Shuttle Program all film returned for processing was handled in the same way as during the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo Programs. Digital technology was not introduced until I retired from NASA.

[Assistant] What memories stand out during your time at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than assuming more responsibility the overall job did not change noticeably. I still kept a hand on mission requirements.

[Assistant] Once the Shuttle Program started were they taking the camera and bringing the film back to your laboratory or was it during your career that digital technology came in?

[User] During the beginning of the Space Shuttle Program all film returned for processing was handled in the same way as during the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo Programs. Digital technology was not introduced until I retired from NASA.

[Assistant] What memories stand out during your time at NASA?

[User] There are many memories that I will always look back on from my years at NASA; many happy memories, some sad. Some include Ed White's walk in space [\n\n refer to photo 2\n\n ]; the first rendezvous of the spacecraft in the Gemini Program [\n\n refer to photo 3\n\n ]; the loss of Apollo 1 astronauts, White, Grissom and Chaffee; fire on the pad at the Cape; the Earth-rise taken on Apollo 8; and the Scripture reading on Christmas Eve; astronaut by the flag on the Moon, Apollo 11; footprints on the Moon [\n\n refer to photo 6\n\n ], Apollo 11; views of the LM [Lunar Module] lander on the Moon with astronaut, experiment packages, footprints and flag (a classic!) [\n\n refer to photo 7\n\n ]; picture of the Earth taken about 25,000 miles from re-entry, Apollo 17;\n\n Challenger\n\n Accident and loss of crew;-returning the boxes of lunar rocks from the Moon to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory; and in general memories of processing all film that was taken on the Moon.

[Assistant] I have just sort of a fun question for you. You mentioned that Wally Schirra was your neighbor and you also mentioned Pete Conrad lived in the neighborhood. What was it like living in this neighborhood with all these astronauts around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I asked Terry [N.] Slezak, an excellent technician, if he would like to go in the LRL to accomplish the decontamination of all the film that returned from the Moon and help out in other areas as needed. Terry jumped at the chance, a gung-ho guy for the program. "Let's get it done!". Terry did another excellent job for NASA.

[Assistant] What was your biggest challenge during your career with NASA?

[User] One major challenge in my career was to be a part of the development of the photographic laboratory and see that all equipment was procured, installed and operational to support the Apollo program for the first manned landing on the Moon. We did have a laboratory that was second to none in the country; however, I felt personal responsibility for this phase in the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] Is there one moment or instant that you are most proud of?

[User] During my time at NASA and after processing all the Apollo 11 film taken on the Moon and to see the color images displayed on a light table gave me "goose bumps"—an astronaut on the Moon beside the American flag and footprints on the lunar surface that will be there for eternity! I was proud that I had a special part in history!

[Assistant] Would you just share with us your thoughts the first time that you saw pictures of the Moon? You said Apollo 8 was the first, those first shots that they took. Can you just give us your thoughts of what it was like to see—to know that you had still photos—that they had taken pictures of the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One major challenge in my career was to be a part of the development of the photographic laboratory and see that all equipment was procured, installed and operational to support the Apollo program for the first manned landing on the Moon. We did have a laboratory that was second to none in the country; however, I felt personal responsibility for this phase in the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] Is there one moment or instant that you are most proud of?

[User] During my time at NASA and after processing all the Apollo 11 film taken on the Moon and to see the color images displayed on a light table gave me "goose bumps"—an astronaut on the Moon beside the American flag and footprints on the lunar surface that will be there for eternity! I was proud that I had a special part in history!

[Assistant] Would you just share with us your thoughts the first time that you saw pictures of the Moon? You said Apollo 8 was the first, those first shots that they took. Can you just give us your thoughts of what it was like to see—to know that you had still photos—that they had taken pictures of the Moon?

[User] To see pictures of the Earth rise coming into view as the Apollo 8 crew circled the Moon, it gives me a feeling of peace, a different perspective; a picture of the Earth rise and lunar surface that not even the most accomplished artist could reproduce.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite photograph from during your time that you were there? Do you have any one that you could name as your favorite?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I had about 80 hours in the KC-135 before I got selected as an astronaut, and I lost a lot of good lunches—or breakfasts, as it was, because we typically flew in the morning.

[Assistant] I’m sure that wasn’t unusual, either. Talk about your interest in becoming an astronaut and applying to be an astronaut, then eventually being selected.

[User] As I mentioned before, I’ve always been interested in space and exploration and going there. After I was finishing up my Ph.D. at University of Arizona [Tucson] in chemical engineering, it occurred to me that I was qualified to be an astronaut, particularly what NASA had in their literature, and they were going through a selection. I graduated in 1983, and I put in an application for the 1984 selection. I was fortunate right out of the chocks to actually go in for an interview. Out of maybe 5,000 applicants, about 120 come in for an actual interview. Then I got the “Thank you very much for applying to the space program” letter that started off with, “Due to the large number of highly qualified applicants, dah dah dah.”\n\n I got that reject letter in 1984, and then over the course of the next 13 years I kept my application current and I interviewed three more times, and I got rejected a total of three times, and the last time, the fourth time, I somehow managed to get in the program. I tell my friends it was probably due to a clerical error, but anyway, I got into the program.

[Assistant] That was in 1996.

[User] That was in 1996.

[Assistant] Then, of course, you went through your training, and your first mission was on Expedition 6 in 2002, and part of what you were doing was helping with the continuing construction of the ISS.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And I want to divide that between the public affairs nature of the website and the research nature of the website. I had nothing to do with the research online, the records online. All of that was separate. But when I say the website, it was essentially the public-facing website that had to do with all of our public affairs operations. Okay.

[Assistant] All right. Yeah, I was going to ask about that, too. So you've already preempted me there. So thank you for thinking ahead. [LAUGHS].

[User] There you go.

[Assistant] Also, I think during that time—and correct me if I'm wrong—I think NARA's Archives II facility was opened in College Park?

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] Did you have any part in getting appropriations for that, or how did that work? What were your responsibilities there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] While it was a real, real statement of the nature of some of the things that are sent to the White House, and it was very illustrative of protest gifts, the President's daughter and the President's son-in-law were special guests that night of the National Archives. They left very angry that we had that on display. So it's a very good example of where our historical integrity at the National Archives sometimes has a head-on collision with ongoing political families, the Johnson family being one that really had an ongoing legacy. Chuck Robb was a United States Senator at the time, and the son-in-law of LBJ. And so you were on a tightrope sometimes, and sometimes you fell off the tightrope. That night was one that I'll never forget. We were definitely off the tightrope that night, though there was no better exhibit of an artifact than that shovel. The curator of the exhibit absolutely did the right thing by putting it in there. But we had some fallout.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's the thing with history though. You should show all different sides, right? Not just one. So it was important that that was there.

[User] Well, and LBJ was one of the people themselves that we kind of quoted back to the family very gingerly. LBJ was the one that said, "I want my library to show the history with the bark off," was his Texas phrase. "I want to see it with the bark off. I want to see the real thing." And boy, that was history with the bark off for damn sure, and we lost a little of our own bark that night as a result of it. But it's the way it goes.

[Assistant] You brought up the caves. I was just at Lenexa last week, and that was the very first time that I'd ever been in the caves. I'd heard about them, but going along with what you were saying, you don't really understand it until you're actually in there and see how large they are. We got lost in the cave, so . . .

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your point of [CROSS-TALKING].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, and LBJ was one of the people themselves that we kind of quoted back to the family very gingerly. LBJ was the one that said, "I want my library to show the history with the bark off," was his Texas phrase. "I want to see it with the bark off. I want to see the real thing." And boy, that was history with the bark off for damn sure, and we lost a little of our own bark that night as a result of it. But it's the way it goes.

[Assistant] You brought up the caves. I was just at Lenexa last week, and that was the very first time that I'd ever been in the caves. I'd heard about them, but going along with what you were saying, you don't really understand it until you're actually in there and see how large they are. We got lost in the cave, so . . .

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your point of [CROSS-TALKING].

[User] Just the scope of a space like that where you literally have tractor-trailer trucks that drive down in there and drive around, and the extra benefit of the dry environment, the cool environment. . . . And one of the other things that we were able to display to the world was the number of environmental awards that we got that we were able to, you know, preserve all those records down there with a very minimal use of HVAC [heating, ventilation, and air conditioning] equipment, because it was all naturally air conditioned, because it was underground. It was cool—summer and winter were the same.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. [LAUGHS]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your point of [CROSS-TALKING].

[User] Just the scope of a space like that where you literally have tractor-trailer trucks that drive down in there and drive around, and the extra benefit of the dry environment, the cool environment. . . . And one of the other things that we were able to display to the world was the number of environmental awards that we got that we were able to, you know, preserve all those records down there with a very minimal use of HVAC [heating, ventilation, and air conditioning] equipment, because it was all naturally air conditioned, because it was underground. It was cool—summer and winter were the same.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. [LAUGHS]

[User] [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] So you mentioned President Johnson's family. Do you have any other stories from other Presidential families that you had to work with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, let's hold that for the next time, if you will, and I'll think about it. I can also kind of make a list of happy stories and scandals that I can lay out. Scandals is too pejorative a term. I mean, more often than not, it was something that would happen that we had a story to tell. And I was there to get the story out. Happy to chat about that and to go into that.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And every one of those controversies was also an opportunity to, through the press, explain to people what we did. And so a lot of that was kind of taking a . . . you know, and turning something around from a negative to a positive. That was certainly a goal and maybe an interesting one to put down on tape. So . . .

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, kind of that educating the Congress and the public on really what our mission is and what we actually do, it sounds like.

[User] Yeah, that was a part of it. And that then moved over into the whole web. The world of the World Wide Web in terms of trying to figure out how to do that most effectively through the electronic means, which we can talk about as well.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Wonderful. Well, let me go ahead and stop the recording. Just hang on just a second here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very much on-the-job training. My first—I think it was the entire first year—was just on my assigned job in the Modern Military Projects Branch. Then the second year I was with a class of beginning archivists for a two-week cram course in archival administration. It was by lecture, and pretty much office heads would come and tell us what they did. After, the rest of that year was rotational assignment. You had to have at least one in a non-textual unit, and so on. So my rotational assignments were first in the Military Reference Branch, and then in Cartographic, which I liked very much, because I got to arrange and describe blueprint maps of the Philippines that had been done by General MacArthur’s father, Arthur MacArthur, in, I think, 1912, around there. That was very interesting. My next assignment was Still Pictures; that was a very monotonous assignment of arranging and describing photographic prints of Veterans Administration hospitals that apparently were built on the same pattern, much as Pizza Huts are, so it was dreadfully boring! And I also had an assignment in the Washington National Records Center. And there, of course, they gave me records that were packed in twenty-five pound boxes on the top shelf; my most difficult assignment was getting the boxes down.

[Assistant] Right! And then after those rotations you went back to your home office?

[User] That’s right, I did.

[Assistant] How long were you there at your first assignment?

[User] In Modern Military Projects? I have to look at my little chronology here [refers to papers on her lap]. I think that was July 1974 to May 1977.

[Assistant] Where did you go after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, we might not.

[Assistant] And the command might even be dissolved by then!

[User] We have found that with one agency. It was the “Risk”…I can’t remember now, but it has “Risk” in it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] OK.

[User] Before we accessioned any records, they had already been abolished. They did create records, but they are easily absorbed by another record group, so we did cancel that record group.

[Assistant] Here’s one other question. How do you think technology has changed the work of record group administration?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have found that with one agency. It was the “Risk”…I can’t remember now, but it has “Risk” in it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] OK.

[User] Before we accessioned any records, they had already been abolished. They did create records, but they are easily absorbed by another record group, so we did cancel that record group.

[Assistant] Here’s one other question. How do you think technology has changed the work of record group administration?

[User] I thought and thought about that, Bill. First of all, just the technology we use, the way we administer by computer, I think, certainly allows us to create larger record groups, in fact, because we have much better intellectual control over them through the computer than we did before. On the other hand, it may not come to pass. Reference archivists may still say, “Hey, wait a minute, it’s getting too big, I can’t find it.” So I am not sure. But looking at it the other way, we are accessioning electronic records, and that may be what you are interested in, about how I think that kind of technology has affected record groups. So, I made some inquiries among our electronic records staff; the two staffs, NWME [Electronic and Special Media Services Division] and the ERA [Electronic Records Archives] staff. And I hadn’t really thought about it, but they said they didn’t foresee any particular change in the future, because no matter what the medium is of the record, we still have to have some overarching organizing principle. And for us, the record group—as we have defined it—has worked. I will be interested though, to see if eventually that we won’t need record groups.

[Assistant] There could be some large government-wide electronic system that would not easily be allocated to one record group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before we accessioned any records, they had already been abolished. They did create records, but they are easily absorbed by another record group, so we did cancel that record group.

[Assistant] Here’s one other question. How do you think technology has changed the work of record group administration?

[User] I thought and thought about that, Bill. First of all, just the technology we use, the way we administer by computer, I think, certainly allows us to create larger record groups, in fact, because we have much better intellectual control over them through the computer than we did before. On the other hand, it may not come to pass. Reference archivists may still say, “Hey, wait a minute, it’s getting too big, I can’t find it.” So I am not sure. But looking at it the other way, we are accessioning electronic records, and that may be what you are interested in, about how I think that kind of technology has affected record groups. So, I made some inquiries among our electronic records staff; the two staffs, NWME [Electronic and Special Media Services Division] and the ERA [Electronic Records Archives] staff. And I hadn’t really thought about it, but they said they didn’t foresee any particular change in the future, because no matter what the medium is of the record, we still have to have some overarching organizing principle. And for us, the record group—as we have defined it—has worked. I will be interested though, to see if eventually that we won’t need record groups.

[Assistant] There could be some large government-wide electronic system that would not easily be allocated to one record group.

[User] Exactly, that’s right. We can’t foresee it. Well, I can’t, anyway.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought and thought about that, Bill. First of all, just the technology we use, the way we administer by computer, I think, certainly allows us to create larger record groups, in fact, because we have much better intellectual control over them through the computer than we did before. On the other hand, it may not come to pass. Reference archivists may still say, “Hey, wait a minute, it’s getting too big, I can’t find it.” So I am not sure. But looking at it the other way, we are accessioning electronic records, and that may be what you are interested in, about how I think that kind of technology has affected record groups. So, I made some inquiries among our electronic records staff; the two staffs, NWME [Electronic and Special Media Services Division] and the ERA [Electronic Records Archives] staff. And I hadn’t really thought about it, but they said they didn’t foresee any particular change in the future, because no matter what the medium is of the record, we still have to have some overarching organizing principle. And for us, the record group—as we have defined it—has worked. I will be interested though, to see if eventually that we won’t need record groups.

[Assistant] There could be some large government-wide electronic system that would not easily be allocated to one record group.

[User] Exactly, that’s right. We can’t foresee it. Well, I can’t, anyway.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to talk about?

[User] No, I think I’ve done a lot of talking!

[Assistant] Well, great! That’s about it. The time is now approximately a quarter to 11.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I was in high school, I took all the science courses that I could get. It was a small high school. We didn't have a lot. I did build a radio. Back there in those days, some of them worked and some of them didn't, but some of them did a pretty good job. I was listening in on Europe a great deal, and that was sort of interesting. However, I guess I was more interested in the building and in the use of different antennas to see how to improve the signal and that sort of thing. So I started leaning towards engineering in those days.

[Assistant] You went to Tufts [University, Medford, Massachusetts] for physics.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about your experience there as an undergraduate.

[User] Well, one of the things that I was involved with for interest and for making money, I worked in a Signal Corps lab that was at the school, and it was in piezoelectricity. Back in the early days of the war, there was a great deal of effort in regard to that subject.\n\n Piezoelectricity, it's a crystal, and if you squeeze it, it turns out an electric charge. If you put an electric charge on it, it will oscillate. So people were interested in the cut of the crystal that would oscillate, but not drift with temperature. It was also a great temperature sensor. Well, finally they came up with the cut, the BT cut, and we didn't do that; it was in another laboratory. However, we were looking into other uses of the piezoelectric crystals. I was cutting my own. Quartz crystal is about that long and about yea big around, and we had some of the best. They came from Brazil. So if you're interested in that sort of thing, it was a good location to be employed, making money in your off time, and also learning about some things. And I did use some piezoelectricity later on in my work at—well, it was at NACA.

[Assistant] Then you went into the Navy. Could you tell us about your experience there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I kind of figured that we were in a race, and I never doubted but what we would win the race. There were things that came up, I guess, that you might think, gee whiz, maybe they are going to be there first. However, it all worked out in the correct way. The same, of course, was true in regard to the Polaris that I worked on.

[Assistant] Another question about Mercury. I know on Gordon Cooper's flight, they had a form of television there, like a slow scan television camera on board. Did you have anything to do with that?

[User] I don't remember that now. No, I don't remember. I know that that was the case, but if I had anything to do with that, I don't remember that. It was at a later date that I had a television section. Much later date. It could be that some astronaut wanted television on board and he got together with a contractor. I don't know. You just couldn't put one on. It had to go through some qualification. If I had anything to do with that, I sure have forgotten it, and I don't believe I would have forgotten that if I had. But I know what you say. I remember it now that you tell me about it. [Olin Graham remembers an extremely slow-scan TV for recording on-board. He does not remember any usable images. I may have had a TV Section at that time with Max Engert as the Head.]

[Assistant] Obviously television became important as we moved into Apollo.

[User] That's kind of a story, but television didn't really become important [at the time of early Apollo]. Television became very unimportant. [Television was removed from the program, but was added later, as I describe later in the interview, and became very important.]

[Assistant] When was it that you first heard about a lunar mission that became Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember that now. No, I don't remember. I know that that was the case, but if I had anything to do with that, I don't remember that. It was at a later date that I had a television section. Much later date. It could be that some astronaut wanted television on board and he got together with a contractor. I don't know. You just couldn't put one on. It had to go through some qualification. If I had anything to do with that, I sure have forgotten it, and I don't believe I would have forgotten that if I had. But I know what you say. I remember it now that you tell me about it. [Olin Graham remembers an extremely slow-scan TV for recording on-board. He does not remember any usable images. I may have had a TV Section at that time with Max Engert as the Head.]

[Assistant] Obviously television became important as we moved into Apollo.

[User] That's kind of a story, but television didn't really become important [at the time of early Apollo]. Television became very unimportant. [Television was removed from the program, but was added later, as I describe later in the interview, and became very important.]

[Assistant] When was it that you first heard about a lunar mission that became Apollo?

[User] Well, I don't know when that was announced. [President John F.] Kennedy [Jr.] came here, gave a speech out at Rice Stadium. I don't know whether he announced it then or at some other time. But when that announcement came out, I decided that it would be a long and expensive program. I asked Dr. Gilruth one time that same question: How did you feel, Dr. Gilruth, when you learned that you were going to be the head of the team that was going to put astronauts on the moon and bring them back? And he said, "I was appalled." So I was probably more than appalled, but anyhow.

[Assistant] What was your first involvement with the Apollo Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, there had not been [to that extent].

[Assistant] So why the need for Apollo?

[User] Well, Apollo was a lot more complicated, and doing this—and the contractor, when told about doing this, was really not in position to do it. There was quite a bit of competition in regard to who was going to do it. I remember writing a memo, and the memo said that here's what we would do in regard to this, this, and this, and here are the people who I would assign. I suppose there were some other memos from other places, and whoever makes that choice made the choice, and we got put in the job.

[Assistant] What were some of the other areas of responsibility that you had at this point during the Apollo Program?

[User] During which point?

[Assistant] Pretty early on before they started the actual flight phase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Apollo was a lot more complicated, and doing this—and the contractor, when told about doing this, was really not in position to do it. There was quite a bit of competition in regard to who was going to do it. I remember writing a memo, and the memo said that here's what we would do in regard to this, this, and this, and here are the people who I would assign. I suppose there were some other memos from other places, and whoever makes that choice made the choice, and we got put in the job.

[Assistant] What were some of the other areas of responsibility that you had at this point during the Apollo Program?

[User] During which point?

[Assistant] Pretty early on before they started the actual flight phase.

[User] Well, we were responsible for that which the contractor was building, and we had the same types of interface with the prime contractor, Rockwell. I guess it was North American [Aviation, Inc.] then, became Rockwell. They came up with one of the lead subcontractors was the company in Cedar Rapids, which they eventually bought. We had quite a lot of problems with that company in this program, but eventually the prime contractor came up with an incentive contract, and that really took care of the real problems. It speeded it up. They had trouble getting delivery. With incentive contract, those problems went away.

[Assistant] Do you remember some of the specific problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During which point?

[Assistant] Pretty early on before they started the actual flight phase.

[User] Well, we were responsible for that which the contractor was building, and we had the same types of interface with the prime contractor, Rockwell. I guess it was North American [Aviation, Inc.] then, became Rockwell. They came up with one of the lead subcontractors was the company in Cedar Rapids, which they eventually bought. We had quite a lot of problems with that company in this program, but eventually the prime contractor came up with an incentive contract, and that really took care of the real problems. It speeded it up. They had trouble getting delivery. With incentive contract, those problems went away.

[Assistant] Do you remember some of the specific problems?

[User] Well, they weren't necessarily technical problems. They were just "not turning it out" problems. I presume that the contractor had other contracts for other people who had a tight schedule, and they were being pressed. And money talks if you have incentive contracts. They learn how to make money. It probably was easy for them to do. Maybe somebody's program just didn't get delivered, I don't know.

[Assistant] What were some of the particular new challenges presented by Apollo compared to the previous programs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did the equipment come about that they used for this? Were they standard television cameras? What sort of development was put on these to be able to use them in space?

[User] Well, they were made to be very, very light, and they were made as special units, I'm sure. They were made by RCA. It was a contract for the contractor to do that.\n\n You're not going to ask me the next question?

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Okay. "What was your reaction to the TV camera burnout on Apollo 12?" Well, my reaction was, the camera did like it was supposed to do. [Alan L.] Bean and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad pointed it at the sun, and it did what it was supposed to; it quit. Then they hit it with something, and somebody said, "That's better," so they hit it again. Well, it didn't work after that.

[Assistant] I believe for Apollo 15 and later missions they had a different type of tube so they wouldn't burn out if that happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were made to be very, very light, and they were made as special units, I'm sure. They were made by RCA. It was a contract for the contractor to do that.\n\n You're not going to ask me the next question?

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Okay. "What was your reaction to the TV camera burnout on Apollo 12?" Well, my reaction was, the camera did like it was supposed to do. [Alan L.] Bean and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad pointed it at the sun, and it did what it was supposed to; it quit. Then they hit it with something, and somebody said, "That's better," so they hit it again. Well, it didn't work after that.

[Assistant] I believe for Apollo 15 and later missions they had a different type of tube so they wouldn't burn out if that happened.

[User] We used what we called silicon-intensified tube.

[Assistant] And for some of the television, I believe there was an Emmy Award involved. Could you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. "What was your reaction to the TV camera burnout on Apollo 12?" Well, my reaction was, the camera did like it was supposed to do. [Alan L.] Bean and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad pointed it at the sun, and it did what it was supposed to; it quit. Then they hit it with something, and somebody said, "That's better," so they hit it again. Well, it didn't work after that.

[Assistant] I believe for Apollo 15 and later missions they had a different type of tube so they wouldn't burn out if that happened.

[User] We used what we called silicon-intensified tube.

[Assistant] And for some of the television, I believe there was an Emmy Award involved. Could you tell us about that?

[User] There was a what?

[Assistant] An Emmy Award.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used what we called silicon-intensified tube.

[Assistant] And for some of the television, I believe there was an Emmy Award involved. Could you tell us about that?

[User] There was a what?

[Assistant] An Emmy Award.

[User] Oh, yes, there was—yes, I haven't seen it in—I don't know. I've been retired ten years. I guess some years ago I noticed up in the outer area of the director's office—well, I suppose now there's a bunch of places there where they have various awards, and this is one of them. I believe the wording on it—I don't know. I copied it down once. But anyhow, it did say the IESD—I don't know whether they spelled it out—Instrumentation Electronic Systems Division, and that was the division that we were in.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was a proud moment to be recognized for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a what?

[Assistant] An Emmy Award.

[User] Oh, yes, there was—yes, I haven't seen it in—I don't know. I've been retired ten years. I guess some years ago I noticed up in the outer area of the director's office—well, I suppose now there's a bunch of places there where they have various awards, and this is one of them. I believe the wording on it—I don't know. I copied it down once. But anyhow, it did say the IESD—I don't know whether they spelled it out—Instrumentation Electronic Systems Division, and that was the division that we were in.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was a proud moment to be recognized for that.

[User] Well, yes, that was a good thing. [We provided all the color television as GFE.] [Laughter]

[Assistant] Can you tell us about any other developments that may have been made to various communications or instrument divisions as the later flights progressed, particularly the longer surface-stay missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, speaking now of the LEM, we had—I think it was on the LEM. Yes. We had equipment out in the atmosphere. It was atmosphere, as a matter of fact, the atmosphere created by the vehicle itself. We had corona problems, and we sealed the boxes. That was one of the things that we learned. When people were talking about power from space, you know, you use the tubes, the huge vacuum tubes, to send down.\n\n Some of the eminent scientists were saying, "Well, there you are in a vacuum. You don't have to even put any envelope on." Well, anyway, we learned that if you've got any structure that came from the earth, you do have, and you will have, corona. So as we went on in our programs, if anything was going to be out in the vacuum of space, we would seal those boxes to eliminate any problems of that type.\n\n There were other GFE things that became required. For the Space Lab we came up with what I would call a teletype, you know, that would just run and send up information to the astronauts. They didn't have to man it or anything, just go pick it up. We evaluated three different manufacturers and came up with what we thought was the one that could be modified to be suitable. And there were several. Actually, the program offices used us quite a lot in regard to GFE'ing equipment, because it was a lot cheaper for them. As a matter of fact, the Air Force had us doing some programs for them.

[Assistant] What kind of programs, do you remember?

[User] Well, it was associated with our work.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that Roger Chaffee was one of the astronauts that worked with your division. Who were some of the other astronauts that did, and what contributions do you feel they made?

[User] Well, Apollo 10—I've forgotten his name. He became a lieutenant general.

[Assistant] Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was associated with our work.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that Roger Chaffee was one of the astronauts that worked with your division. Who were some of the other astronauts that did, and what contributions do you feel they made?

[User] Well, Apollo 10—I've forgotten his name. He became a lieutenant general.

[Assistant] Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford?

[User] Tom Stafford. He wanted—normally I can remember names, but sometimes I don't. He wanted color television on his flight. As a matter of fact, he used to call me many times. He was at the Cape getting ready to fly, and he was worried that we weren't on the ball. He would call to ask me how we were doing, and I would tell him we were doing just fine. I would imagine that, knowing him, he probably called the contractor to find out whether or not we were, but I don't know that. I never asked the contractor. Anyhow, we did fine, and we provided it and it worked fine. He was happy with his television, I presume.

[Assistant] Going back to Mercury or Gemini, did astronauts work with you then?