[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. Yeah, it was a wonderful experience.

[Assistant] So when training was over, you were ready to go?

[User] Yeah, we were ready to go. We came back home for a couple of weeks, I think. I think that's what it was. Two weeks to get your stuff together and you'll all show up in, uh, Kennedy Airport. And we all convened there and then flew. I forget the route. I don't know. It's a, it's a routine one. I think you go to Frankfurt and then Beirut I think. Maybe Istanbul, maybe. No, maybe Beirut. And then you go into Tehran. But you always, you land at like midnight or 1:00 in the morning.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's the way most of the flights go there. I don't know what, but that's about. I guess it's just the way the timing is of things. But, um, but it was a long flight, you know, all these delays and stuff along the way. But you get there and everything was all lit up in the morning.

[Assistant] At the airport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were ready to go. We came back home for a couple of weeks, I think. I think that's what it was. Two weeks to get your stuff together and you'll all show up in, uh, Kennedy Airport. And we all convened there and then flew. I forget the route. I don't know. It's a, it's a routine one. I think you go to Frankfurt and then Beirut I think. Maybe Istanbul, maybe. No, maybe Beirut. And then you go into Tehran. But you always, you land at like midnight or 1:00 in the morning.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's the way most of the flights go there. I don't know what, but that's about. I guess it's just the way the timing is of things. But, um, but it was a long flight, you know, all these delays and stuff along the way. But you get there and everything was all lit up in the morning.

[Assistant] At the airport?

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your first impression of the country then, since it was dark, I guess you were, you were probably anticipating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your first impression of the country then, since it was dark, I guess you were, you were probably anticipating.

[User] Yeah, I don't know.

[Assistant] The sunrise.

[User] Right. You didn't. I don't have much of a different impression. Like, see, I could see it was desert. There wasn't much greenery. Um. Yeah, but then the next morning, of course, you're in a big city and you hear the taxis going, you know, all that. They have all the horns and all that. So quite noisy and busy.

[Assistant] So what was Tehran like in those days? Was it a pretty developed and pretty modern city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. You didn't. I don't have much of a different impression. Like, see, I could see it was desert. There wasn't much greenery. Um. Yeah, but then the next morning, of course, you're in a big city and you hear the taxis going, you know, all that. They have all the horns and all that. So quite noisy and busy.

[Assistant] So what was Tehran like in those days? Was it a pretty developed and pretty modern city?

[User] Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty developed. Right. And pretty big too, although it's growing more and more.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was, it's just a big city and, and so I got, you know, not, I just wasn't comfortable going out into a smaller town. I didn't know where I'd be, you know. And you always were warned about what the role of women is in a Muslim country. So I wasn't sure how comfortable I would be. But after being in Tehran, I mean, I didn't get acquainted with Iranians there. I got all tied into the, uh, the embassy.

[Assistant] Oh, because there were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty developed. Right. And pretty big too, although it's growing more and more.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was, it's just a big city and, and so I got, you know, not, I just wasn't comfortable going out into a smaller town. I didn't know where I'd be, you know. And you always were warned about what the role of women is in a Muslim country. So I wasn't sure how comfortable I would be. But after being in Tehran, I mean, I didn't get acquainted with Iranians there. I got all tied into the, uh, the embassy.

[Assistant] Oh, because there were.

[User] A lot of.

[Assistant] Of other expats or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was, it's just a big city and, and so I got, you know, not, I just wasn't comfortable going out into a smaller town. I didn't know where I'd be, you know. And you always were warned about what the role of women is in a Muslim country. So I wasn't sure how comfortable I would be. But after being in Tehran, I mean, I didn't get acquainted with Iranians there. I got all tied into the, uh, the embassy.

[Assistant] Oh, because there were.

[User] A lot of.

[Assistant] Of other expats or?

[User] Yeah, expats. Well, military. There's a lot of a big military presence in Iran.

[Assistant] So then your, your social contacts were mostly those Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said, wait a minute, you're here to learn Iran, about Iran, not to socialize with Americans. You'd better get out of this place.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I asked for a transfer after six months.

[Assistant] Temporarily strayed off course there.

[User] So that's when I was transferred to Gorgan, which I had a much more fulfilling experience.

[Assistant] But you did, uh, how long did you work in Tehran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I asked for a transfer after six months.

[Assistant] Temporarily strayed off course there.

[User] So that's when I was transferred to Gorgan, which I had a much more fulfilling experience.

[Assistant] But you did, uh, how long did you work in Tehran?

[User] About six months.

[Assistant] So you had interaction with your students.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's when I was transferred to Gorgan, which I had a much more fulfilling experience.

[Assistant] But you did, uh, how long did you work in Tehran?

[User] About six months.

[Assistant] So you had interaction with your students.

[User] Yeah, but not socially outside of that.

[Assistant] Right. But how did you find the students? How did, were they accepting of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but not socially outside of that.

[Assistant] Right. But how did you find the students? How did, were they accepting of you?

[User] Yeah, they actually. Yeah, they were. But they also wanted some favors, you know. They didn't want to have to come to class and wanted me to sign off on their, their certificate that they were going to be good at school. Yeah. It's just, it's how.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] A lot of things.

[Assistant] Just wanted you to sign off on it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they actually. Yeah, they were. But they also wanted some favors, you know. They didn't want to have to come to class and wanted me to sign off on their, their certificate that they were going to be good at school. Yeah. It's just, it's how.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] A lot of things.

[Assistant] Just wanted you to sign off on it.

[User] Yeah. Because they didn't want to go to class and they just.

[Assistant] Did they try to bribe you at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of things.

[Assistant] Just wanted you to sign off on it.

[User] Yeah. Because they didn't want to go to class and they just.

[Assistant] Did they try to bribe you at all?

[User] Eh, sort of. Sort of, you know, and I didn't like that. I didn't like that position, to be in that position of trying to help them along when they didn't want to come to class or something.

[Assistant] So being in the city, were these students from maybe upper middle class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Because they didn't want to go to class and they just.

[Assistant] Did they try to bribe you at all?

[User] Eh, sort of. Sort of, you know, and I didn't like that. I didn't like that position, to be in that position of trying to help them along when they didn't want to come to class or something.

[Assistant] So being in the city, were these students from maybe upper middle class?

[User] Yes, they were used to privilege and having. Yeah. So that was one thing I didn't like about the college at that level. That college level, they wanted some. You know, I didn't. I don't think they bribed me. I don't remember that. I just didn't like even like the question. Come to class, you know, that's our. That's the way we, we don't, we're not used to that. The system here, maybe it's changed. I hope not. But, anyway.

[Assistant] And was Peace Corps okay then, when you asked to, you asked to be reassigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eh, sort of. Sort of, you know, and I didn't like that. I didn't like that position, to be in that position of trying to help them along when they didn't want to come to class or something.

[Assistant] So being in the city, were these students from maybe upper middle class?

[User] Yes, they were used to privilege and having. Yeah. So that was one thing I didn't like about the college at that level. That college level, they wanted some. You know, I didn't. I don't think they bribed me. I don't remember that. I just didn't like even like the question. Come to class, you know, that's our. That's the way we, we don't, we're not used to that. The system here, maybe it's changed. I hope not. But, anyway.

[Assistant] And was Peace Corps okay then, when you asked to, you asked to be reassigned?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Peace Corps was okay with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Peace Corps was okay with that?

[User] They were okay with it, yeah. They had apparently had a request from the, I guess they had enough places to send me and I. So there were two men from my group already in this town of Gorgan. They were teachers too, and so they roomed together. So I wasn't going to be isolated. I would be in the same town with them, uh, or city actually. It was probably 10,000 people. And I would be living, it was all arranged, I would be living with a, um, a midwife who, um, you know, was living alone so.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So they provided your housing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were okay with it, yeah. They had apparently had a request from the, I guess they had enough places to send me and I. So there were two men from my group already in this town of Gorgan. They were teachers too, and so they roomed together. So I wasn't going to be isolated. I would be in the same town with them, uh, or city actually. It was probably 10,000 people. And I would be living, it was all arranged, I would be living with a, um, a midwife who, um, you know, was living alone so.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So they provided your housing?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Told you where you had to live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So they provided your housing?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Told you where you had to live?

[User] Yeah. So that worked out. It was a wonderful experience.

[Assistant] She was Iranian, she was local?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. A wonderful experience with her.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] In fact, she just passed away a year ago at 80, she was 86 or something, here in Orange County.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] She got out. She and her family got out when the Shah was, you know, with the revolution, when the Shah was booted out. So she came.

[Assistant] So you were still in touch with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's the original faith of Iran. And it wasn't till the caliphs came in there and the Arab invasion that they then became Muslim. So. Uh, they. So he's a merchant, he comes from a merchant, you know, he's a surgeon. Anyway, so I had my parents, asked my parents to send, to send her. Would they send the things to them, what she wanted for this baby to be born? So my, my parents agreed and they went out and shopped, bought a baby carriage, all this stuff. And, you know, and then they had to ship it and it came in and they had to ship it by airfreight and they dropped it by helicopter or something right in the embassy compound.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] A big box like this, because it had the baby carriage and. Got it shipped out to Gorgan, which is, I don't know, 8 hours away or something. Anyway, the bill comes and it was around $400, which was a lot for my parents at the time. It was more for the shipping than the goods were.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So I'm asking, you know, they thought that would just be rich Americans. It would be a gift from the U.S., from them, you know.

[Assistant] Oh, so it wasn't understood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] My God, you know her, you know, and. And they said, yes! I said, well, she knew me as Kati. That's how they would say it in Iran. You're Kati? We've been trying to find you. Mehtari is right here in Orange County.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] And we've been going through all the phone directories trying to find you. Well, my name is oddly spelled, so it's not surprising they couldn't find me. You know, you have to get it spelled right. And I said, oh my gosh. What? She said, what? She's right here. And so, I mean, they went, oh, they went back and I got excited. And I just. How does that happen? Anyway, she came down the next day from, drove down, and we got all reconnected.

[Assistant] Wow. That's amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My God, you know her, you know, and. And they said, yes! I said, well, she knew me as Kati. That's how they would say it in Iran. You're Kati? We've been trying to find you. Mehtari is right here in Orange County.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] And we've been going through all the phone directories trying to find you. Well, my name is oddly spelled, so it's not surprising they couldn't find me. You know, you have to get it spelled right. And I said, oh my gosh. What? She said, what? She's right here. And so, I mean, they went, oh, they went back and I got excited. And I just. How does that happen? Anyway, she came down the next day from, drove down, and we got all reconnected.

[Assistant] Wow. That's amazing.

[User] And we've been connected ever. That's. And I'm, I couldn't work that, well, how does that? These two women, they just were compelled to invite me to lunch. We never had lunch since, you know, I know there's no reason not to. It's just, it's circumstances, didn't happen. And but they were, they were messengers or something. It was amazing. And we've been in touch and in the sun. And all these years, I'd go visit them, especially when, when they had, during the Iraq war and all, her husband, they had got out. And of course he couldn't practice medicine here. So but it. So yes, I kept up with her.

[Assistant] It's a great story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we've been going through all the phone directories trying to find you. Well, my name is oddly spelled, so it's not surprising they couldn't find me. You know, you have to get it spelled right. And I said, oh my gosh. What? She said, what? She's right here. And so, I mean, they went, oh, they went back and I got excited. And I just. How does that happen? Anyway, she came down the next day from, drove down, and we got all reconnected.

[Assistant] Wow. That's amazing.

[User] And we've been connected ever. That's. And I'm, I couldn't work that, well, how does that? These two women, they just were compelled to invite me to lunch. We never had lunch since, you know, I know there's no reason not to. It's just, it's circumstances, didn't happen. And but they were, they were messengers or something. It was amazing. And we've been in touch and in the sun. And all these years, I'd go visit them, especially when, when they had, during the Iraq war and all, her husband, they had got out. And of course he couldn't practice medicine here. So but it. So yes, I kept up with her.

[Assistant] It's a great story.

[User] It's a, I mean, how does, just that I was, we were supposed to meet. I mean that's really. It's almost, I'm Unitarian so I don't really, but it makes you wonder.

[Assistant] You got to wonder.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we've been connected ever. That's. And I'm, I couldn't work that, well, how does that? These two women, they just were compelled to invite me to lunch. We never had lunch since, you know, I know there's no reason not to. It's just, it's circumstances, didn't happen. And but they were, they were messengers or something. It was amazing. And we've been in touch and in the sun. And all these years, I'd go visit them, especially when, when they had, during the Iraq war and all, her husband, they had got out. And of course he couldn't practice medicine here. So but it. So yes, I kept up with her.

[Assistant] It's a great story.

[User] It's a, I mean, how does, just that I was, we were supposed to meet. I mean that's really. It's almost, I'm Unitarian so I don't really, but it makes you wonder.

[Assistant] You got to wonder.

[User] You got to wonder about what's out there, you know. So I don't, I don't question any of it after that experience, you know.

[Assistant] She must have known that you were from California.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, I mean, he didn't do delivery. She says, oh no, she knows him. I don't deliver babies. I call her in when one comes into the hospital. She did it all. But he would do the C-sections, of course. But anyway, it was, so I learned a lot about from that. And one other one. She would go and she was monitoring a woman in labor and she kept saying, oh my God, this baby, the heartbeat is going down. And it was going on way too long. She needs a, he needs a, we need a C-section here. I think it was placenta previa or whatever. And, um, and the husband wouldn't do it. You know, this baby is, the heartbeat is just struggling too much to be born. Nope, I'm not going to have a broken vase of a wife. Didn't want this.

[Assistant] Oh, the.

[User] He didn't want her the surgery. He didn't want the scar on her. So she didn't get the C-section and the baby died.

[Assistant] Oh, that's sad.

[User] Yeah. So that's the, that's what she was dealing with. So all those.

[Assistant] And she had to have the husband's permission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So. Anyway, those are the kind of things I remember, this. Oh, I guess I should have said when I was at the UNESCO School of Social Work, I was sent to a contraceptive clinic in Tehran, in the south part of Tehran. And they were giving out IUDs then. I didn't know anything about all that, but that's why I said, IUDs? Well, since then, I've learned that, someone told me who knew the field more than I did, that, you know, those were, they were testing IUDs on Iranian women through the UN.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] They weren't testing them in U.S. women. They used third world women to test the devices, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] These are things they couldn't get approved through here. So I thought, man, that wasn't good. But anyway, I did learn about that as a contraceptive method. I have no idea if they worked or not. I don't, I don't know the research on it, but because there were some IUDs that weren't, didn't work out at all, so they were pulled from the market. But anyway, what, the reason I mentioned that is that when I was living with that. Well, that was the other part. I had to, when she married the, um, surgeon, I was part of her household. And so I said, oh, I'll just go to another house. You're, you know, you're getting married now. I'll, I'll go with, I'll find another place. You know, you have your own private life now. Oh, heavens, no. You're in Iran. You're part of my household. You have to come.

[Assistant] So you moved in with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These are things they couldn't get approved through here. So I thought, man, that wasn't good. But anyway, I did learn about that as a contraceptive method. I have no idea if they worked or not. I don't, I don't know the research on it, but because there were some IUDs that weren't, didn't work out at all, so they were pulled from the market. But anyway, what, the reason I mentioned that is that when I was living with that. Well, that was the other part. I had to, when she married the, um, surgeon, I was part of her household. And so I said, oh, I'll just go to another house. You're, you know, you're getting married now. I'll, I'll go with, I'll find another place. You know, you have your own private life now. Oh, heavens, no. You're in Iran. You're part of my household. You have to come.

[Assistant] So you moved in with?

[User] I moved with them. I had my own room. They had another room, but I lived. So I was part of her household. I came with her. So anyway. So she was. So they socialized with, with a lot of the medical community basically.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were several physicians and the educated people in the town. So.

[Assistant] So now your social circle went from being the embassy folks in Tehran and the expatriates to being all Iranian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I moved with them. I had my own room. They had another room, but I lived. So I was part of her household. I came with her. So anyway. So she was. So they socialized with, with a lot of the medical community basically.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were several physicians and the educated people in the town. So.

[Assistant] So now your social circle went from being the embassy folks in Tehran and the expatriates to being all Iranian?

[User] Pretty much, yeah, pretty much.

[Assistant] Was your Farsi pretty good at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were several physicians and the educated people in the town. So.

[Assistant] So now your social circle went from being the embassy folks in Tehran and the expatriates to being all Iranian?

[User] Pretty much, yeah, pretty much.

[Assistant] Was your Farsi pretty good at that point?

[User] Yeah, it was. It was pretty good. Yeah. I could, yeah, I could carry on conversations at the table and stuff and, uh. So and then I had my two, the two Peace Corps people in my group. They had their own house, so I'd go and visit them. So that's another story about how I was regarded, you know, when I'd go visit them, you know.

[Assistant] Oh. Didn't look proper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much, yeah, pretty much.

[Assistant] Was your Farsi pretty good at that point?

[User] Yeah, it was. It was pretty good. Yeah. I could, yeah, I could carry on conversations at the table and stuff and, uh. So and then I had my two, the two Peace Corps people in my group. They had their own house, so I'd go and visit them. So that's another story about how I was regarded, you know, when I'd go visit them, you know.

[Assistant] Oh. Didn't look proper?

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Didn't look proper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was. It was pretty good. Yeah. I could, yeah, I could carry on conversations at the table and stuff and, uh. So and then I had my two, the two Peace Corps people in my group. They had their own house, so I'd go and visit them. So that's another story about how I was regarded, you know, when I'd go visit them, you know.

[Assistant] Oh. Didn't look proper?

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Didn't look proper?

[User] Right, it wasn't proper. I was, you know, the image of me then would be, oh, she's going over to visit them because she services them. That's why Peace Corps sends women into Iran, to service the men there, you know, but.

[Assistant] So tell me about the town of Gorgan and what your living conditions were like, what the houses were like. Did you have electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Didn't look proper?

[User] Right, it wasn't proper. I was, you know, the image of me then would be, oh, she's going over to visit them because she services them. That's why Peace Corps sends women into Iran, to service the men there, you know, but.

[Assistant] So tell me about the town of Gorgan and what your living conditions were like, what the houses were like. Did you have electricity?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, we had electricity. The houses were, I don't know, sort of a, what do you call them? Kind of a stucco type thing. They were stucco mud, I guess, with, uh, well.

[Assistant] Not primitive at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bathhouse once a week and or so how often you went. And so that's where you bathe. The bathroom and the toilet. So that was probably the most hardest to adjust to because they were, they're like holes in the ground, they're like a hole in the ground, and you squat over them. So that, you know, that can be a challenge if you have to squat for very long. Oh my God, your legs get wet, you shake. But anyway, and they. I could show you. And it's up, I have it up here. I could show you one. They don't have toilet paper.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] They use kind of a ewer. It's a ewer.

[Assistant] Pitcher.

[User] A pitcher of water. And I never got, I never could visualize how that was done and never, um, so I just never adjusted to it. So when we learned about that in training, so they said, you better be prepared with a lot of toilet paper if that's what you want to use. So people had whole duffel bags of. You could get it, you know, you could buy it. But I did. I have that. But it's just, that's some of the misconnections, you know, the misread. You think you don't have to. But one man had a whole huge duffel bag.

[Assistant] Not taking any chances. So, and your job there, when you were in Gorgan, you taught at a school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A pitcher of water. And I never got, I never could visualize how that was done and never, um, so I just never adjusted to it. So when we learned about that in training, so they said, you better be prepared with a lot of toilet paper if that's what you want to use. So people had whole duffel bags of. You could get it, you know, you could buy it. But I did. I have that. But it's just, that's some of the misconnections, you know, the misread. You think you don't have to. But one man had a whole huge duffel bag.

[Assistant] Not taking any chances. So, and your job there, when you were in Gorgan, you taught at a school?

[User] Uh huh. Girls school, high school.

[Assistant] High school.

[User] Girls school. And started, because my field at that time, I was trained as an elementary teacher at San Diego State. So I had a certificate. So that was my interest. So I did start some, you know, girls classes informally after school. So. Yeah.

[Assistant] And, uh, how did you find the students there and do you get, uh, did you enjoy the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Girls school. And started, because my field at that time, I was trained as an elementary teacher at San Diego State. So I had a certificate. So that was my interest. So I did start some, you know, girls classes informally after school. So. Yeah.

[Assistant] And, uh, how did you find the students there and do you get, uh, did you enjoy the?

[User] I did. They were eager to learn. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I liked them a lot. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Very loving. They're just the most hospitable people.

[Assistant] And the other teachers, were you well accepted by them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very loving. They're just the most hospitable people.

[Assistant] And the other teachers, were you well accepted by them?

[User] Yeah, I think so. I had an awkward exchange once. They had, they, they could have men teachers in girls schools.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They could. And I remember going into the teacher's lounge once and there was a man teacher, you know, you try to greet them and all that. And I did. You know, it's real awkward. Where do you sit? Do you sit right next to them or sit one over to be rude? You know, it's just one of those socially awkward things. So I sat next to him and I should be friendly. Oh, that was wrong. He gets up and moved away from me, so I learned that little social thing. So I could get along with day one. They really did want some distance between men and women.

[Assistant] Yeah. Any other cultural observations? Different things that were big revelations to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think so. I had an awkward exchange once. They had, they, they could have men teachers in girls schools.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They could. And I remember going into the teacher's lounge once and there was a man teacher, you know, you try to greet them and all that. And I did. You know, it's real awkward. Where do you sit? Do you sit right next to them or sit one over to be rude? You know, it's just one of those socially awkward things. So I sat next to him and I should be friendly. Oh, that was wrong. He gets up and moved away from me, so I learned that little social thing. So I could get along with day one. They really did want some distance between men and women.

[Assistant] Yeah. Any other cultural observations? Different things that were big revelations to you?

[User] Uh. Well, yeah. You know, in the terms of what women are, they're sort of a. Marriages are arranged. So the midwife would say, hey, you know, this chief over here in this village would like you as his wife. But I told them, she, she would interfere for me, knowing that I wouldn't be, they wouldn't be interested.

[Assistant] You weren't interested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So that was that. So that was my experience with that man. And I do keep up with them actually.

[Assistant] The Iranian folks that you worked with must have had some impression of what America was like or what Americans were like, right? Did you find that, um, they might have had some misconceptions and did those things change after they got to know you? Or do you think you changed their impression of it?

[User] I, I, it's hard to say. I certainly explained. You know, that we're all rich. You know, the U.S. is Hollywood and all this and that, you know. And the other thing is they were convinced that Johnson killed Kennedy. Convinced.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's the way it happens. The second guy wants in and he just had him done in. I couldn't change that perception, but.

[Assistant] Something that might happen there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's the way it happens. The second guy wants in and he just had him done in. I couldn't change that perception, but.

[Assistant] Something that might happen there.

[User] Yeah, right. Yeah, they were, just couldn't ever get over that one. So, and they, I was. They were, it's a very hospitable culture. I mean, it comes, I think from a culture of the desert. You don't want to be left out there. It's pretty harsh. So they take all kinds of people in and they just are welcoming. It's a wonderful kind of part of their culture. To this day they like Americans. To this day, even despite our government, you know, what? What do you call it? Detente, not detente. What's the opposite? You know, the opposition they have. They love Americans as people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And there were times, though, I must say, and I wasn't there, just I hear from people who served later, ten years later, like Skip Auld, he may tell you that experience. Um. That's when they were in some towns where we were, they were inundated with ugly Americans. They came in with like Bell Helicopter.

[Assistant] Yeah, all the corporations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were times, though, I must say, and I wasn't there, just I hear from people who served later, ten years later, like Skip Auld, he may tell you that experience. Um. That's when they were in some towns where we were, they were inundated with ugly Americans. They came in with like Bell Helicopter.

[Assistant] Yeah, all the corporations.

[User] Corporation. Brought them in. Now they were working. I don't know what they were doing. Somebody told me they had, they were working on helicopters from Vietnam or something. I don't know. But there were huge airfields of helicopters in Isfahan. Someone said there were 10,000 Americans in Isfahan and they were. Now, this was way, a whole later experience. Views about the U.S. had changed then, and they didn't, because they were very disrespectful of their culture, very disrespectful. You know, you'd have the wives of these helicopter repairmen running around jogging in their bras, in their tights, you know, just going down the streets. And, you know, you don't dress like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Just ugly American stuff. They weren't acculturized.

[Assistant] Not Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Corporation. Brought them in. Now they were working. I don't know what they were doing. Somebody told me they had, they were working on helicopters from Vietnam or something. I don't know. But there were huge airfields of helicopters in Isfahan. Someone said there were 10,000 Americans in Isfahan and they were. Now, this was way, a whole later experience. Views about the U.S. had changed then, and they didn't, because they were very disrespectful of their culture, very disrespectful. You know, you'd have the wives of these helicopter repairmen running around jogging in their bras, in their tights, you know, just going down the streets. And, you know, you don't dress like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Just ugly American stuff. They weren't acculturized.

[Assistant] Not Peace Corps.

[User] Not Peace Corps. And they would have dogs and, oh, what is that? You know, and so the Peace Corps volunteer has a very hard time. And as the story goes, I don't know. There's some differences about why the Peace Corps left three years before the, the revolution, and in part because of they just couldn't, they just couldn't overcome the bad image of Americans.

[Assistant] Well, what was the standard of living in the country? Like you were in towns where people were middle class, but so was the overall standard of living pretty good or was there poverty anywhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just ugly American stuff. They weren't acculturized.

[Assistant] Not Peace Corps.

[User] Not Peace Corps. And they would have dogs and, oh, what is that? You know, and so the Peace Corps volunteer has a very hard time. And as the story goes, I don't know. There's some differences about why the Peace Corps left three years before the, the revolution, and in part because of they just couldn't, they just couldn't overcome the bad image of Americans.

[Assistant] Well, what was the standard of living in the country? Like you were in towns where people were middle class, but so was the overall standard of living pretty good or was there poverty anywhere?

[User]
Well, it was growing. There was, there was poverty in some of the villages, yes. But, you know, and he was, the Shah was sending out the education corps to get teachers out and in the villages and getting the health care out, you know. So the standard then, they did have poor villages and a lot of people there wore their chador. In the cities, it was a mix. The Shah's father, he's the one in 1942 or something like that when he came in, he, uh, would, you know, he just decreed no more. We're going to be modern. Just like that. And we're not going to have. He came in '28, I think died in '42, something like that.

Anyway, during his time he decreed you shall not be seen in public with your chador on. Women could not be seen in public. They were traumatized. You know, they just, it was like being nude. They just wouldn't go out, a lot of them, until the younger ones started coming along in school. But then you still had more devout people. Girls would come to school with their, they're more villagers and they had lower incomes and stuff, would come and wear their chador to school. So you had a mix of in these towns.

[Assistant] So if the standard of living was relatively high and education and stuff would Peace, was Peace Corps' main goal there English, teaching English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So and of course, we're always thought we were spies, CIA spies, you know. So that was part of it.

[Assistant] So looking back, what do you think were your, your main accomplishments there?

[User] Just friendship, just really, maybe a few people.

[Assistant] Personal relationships.

[User] Personal relations. Yeah. That's, I don't know. People learned some English. One young girl was determined. She just hung around me. And I'd love to catch up with her, that student. She says, I am going to marry American and go to the U.S. So I want to know English so I can talk to them. All right. So she was really a good student, but I heard she did finally met somebody in the Army. She was able to, but she was not respected very much because she. You're not supposed to be that forward with men in that culture, you know, but she. She knew she didn't want to be part of this. And she, I think she finally married one. So I would love to catch up with her and see.

[Assistant] I hope it worked out for her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just friendship, just really, maybe a few people.

[Assistant] Personal relationships.

[User] Personal relations. Yeah. That's, I don't know. People learned some English. One young girl was determined. She just hung around me. And I'd love to catch up with her, that student. She says, I am going to marry American and go to the U.S. So I want to know English so I can talk to them. All right. So she was really a good student, but I heard she did finally met somebody in the Army. She was able to, but she was not respected very much because she. You're not supposed to be that forward with men in that culture, you know, but she. She knew she didn't want to be part of this. And she, I think she finally married one. So I would love to catch up with her and see.

[Assistant] I hope it worked out for her.

[User] Hope it worked, yes, so.

[Assistant] So do you have any regrets about your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hope it worked, yes, so.

[Assistant] So do you have any regrets about your service?

[User] No, I don't think so. It was such a learning experience. It was, shaped, it, that shaped every single facet of my life. That experience.

[Assistant] Did it?

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had an.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think so. It was such a learning experience. It was, shaped, it, that shaped every single facet of my life. That experience.

[Assistant] Did it?

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had an.

[User] Enormous impact.

[Assistant] Since the early sixties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had an.

[User] Enormous impact.

[Assistant] Since the early sixties.

[User] First love life. I never had dated before. Oh, I learned about, I became, ultimately became a Unitarian because I lived in, at the time she, she was Muslim and she marries this Zoroastrian. What's that? Two different religions. I wasn't even supposed to date Catholics growing up. I was, what? Here we weren't supposed to date Catholics. And there's, what am I here for? These are two different religions, for God's sakes. And they're, they're further ahead than I, than we, than San Diego was. And their whole social group, as I say, they were all physicians. I mean, it was broader intellectuals too. I, we, they had Baha'i friends, Assyrian Christians, Armenian Christians. They had, as I say, Baha'is. They had Jews from a kibbutz that were over there advising Iran.

[Assistant] So it opened your eyes to a bigger world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I had worked in this. Oh, I didn't. Oh, no. There's, there was a benefit. So living with this medical community and learning the plight of women and not being able to plan or space their children. And I had now worked in this clinic in Tehran that was trying to start now with IUDs. So because of my one-to-one connections with the, with some of the physicians, particularly women, women gynecologists there in the town, I said, you know, you might want to check out this School of Social Work because they are giving contraception out. So I gave them the contact from the school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so and then later I heard, yeah, we got some contraception for our patients.

[Assistant] Cool.

[User] So that was a benefit, I think, besides. But that wasn't my, that was just an aside. It wasn't my job, you know, it's just that you get into these things if you're kind of open to it and you see an opportunity and how you can fill a void. So.

[Assistant] Well, you said Peace Corps influenced your career. What did you go after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I checked into it and I ended up in public health administration. But then at the county, when they had a CIDA program, I applied and I put on there and I had, did get a, it was ultimately a master's in public administration, but it was with a specialty in health care, community health care. And that, and I mentioned that I had worked in Peace Corps and got involved with family planning from that experience. And so I ended up, the county saw that on my resume, and says we need somebody to administer our federal Title X program. So that was my career and got into that whole thing. And so it helped my, my, so it helped in my career.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Dear friendships, my whole life that's around, you know, keep up with our informants, the Iranian teachers and my friends here. And so it helped my social life. Uh, my views about foreign policy, because I learned about the Mossadeq and our nasty CIA work that we do undercover and how we let down, you know, we don't live up to our values, you know, around the world. And so, yeah, it's every, I can't think of anything that it didn't, hasn't had a positive effect on it.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't have any regrets at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dear friendships, my whole life that's around, you know, keep up with our informants, the Iranian teachers and my friends here. And so it helped my social life. Uh, my views about foreign policy, because I learned about the Mossadeq and our nasty CIA work that we do undercover and how we let down, you know, we don't live up to our values, you know, around the world. And so, yeah, it's every, I can't think of anything that it didn't, hasn't had a positive effect on it.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't have any regrets at all?

[User] No. No. I wouldn't be the person I am today without it. It was a whole world change for me.

[Assistant] And over the years, have you ever had occasion to talk to somebody who is considering Peace Corps service? And what would you tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't have any regrets at all?

[User] No. No. I wouldn't be the person I am today without it. It was a whole world change for me.

[Assistant] And over the years, have you ever had occasion to talk to somebody who is considering Peace Corps service? And what would you tell them?

[User] Oh, I said, be, oh, but by all means, it was the biggest, changed my worldview. Oh, be sure to go, you know, you'll. Yeah, be sure. They have no, you know, it just, it's, it's, so it's such a benefit to young people, especially if you're young I think. Maybe old people too if they go in. But especially I think it was coming of age experience, too, I think is part of it. But it was, yeah. And I eat, my cuisine, I eat Persian food all the time.

[Assistant] Oh, that reminds me of a question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. I wouldn't be the person I am today without it. It was a whole world change for me.

[Assistant] And over the years, have you ever had occasion to talk to somebody who is considering Peace Corps service? And what would you tell them?

[User] Oh, I said, be, oh, but by all means, it was the biggest, changed my worldview. Oh, be sure to go, you know, you'll. Yeah, be sure. They have no, you know, it just, it's, it's, so it's such a benefit to young people, especially if you're young I think. Maybe old people too if they go in. But especially I think it was coming of age experience, too, I think is part of it. But it was, yeah. And I eat, my cuisine, I eat Persian food all the time.

[Assistant] Oh, that reminds me of a question.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] One of the things that, uh, that people think about when they consider Peace Corps is, oh, I got to eat weird stuff, you know. Did you, would you have any, uh, were there any kind of foods that you just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I said, be, oh, but by all means, it was the biggest, changed my worldview. Oh, be sure to go, you know, you'll. Yeah, be sure. They have no, you know, it just, it's, it's, so it's such a benefit to young people, especially if you're young I think. Maybe old people too if they go in. But especially I think it was coming of age experience, too, I think is part of it. But it was, yeah. And I eat, my cuisine, I eat Persian food all the time.

[Assistant] Oh, that reminds me of a question.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] One of the things that, uh, that people think about when they consider Peace Corps is, oh, I got to eat weird stuff, you know. Did you, would you have any, uh, were there any kind of foods that you just?

[User] Oh, they have, their food is wonderful. It's an exquisite cuisine.

[Assistant] You didn't run into anything that we would consider weird?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] One of the things that, uh, that people think about when they consider Peace Corps is, oh, I got to eat weird stuff, you know. Did you, would you have any, uh, were there any kind of foods that you just?

[User] Oh, they have, their food is wonderful. It's an exquisite cuisine.

[Assistant] You didn't run into anything that we would consider weird?

[User] Well, yeah, they had the sheep. What is it? The sheep testicles or something that they grill. And you can eat that on your rice. I said, well. I think your kidneys and that stuff.

[Assistant] And what was your favorite food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, man. They have a lot. They have stews and khoreshes. I don't know. It's wonderful food. The people can really, it's really exquisite, the spices and the way they cook. My favorite, I don't know. Khoresh, really. You know, they have one like. They cook, they make stews with whatever vegetables are in season. So it could be eggplant. And then they make a stew of it and eat it with very little meat, basically, because they can't afford much. But eat that over rice. And the rice is wonderful. So it's just, we were lucky to be in Iran. I've heard of people's other, other countries is their diet isn't that interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I've heard. I visited Belize later and I knew they had volunteers there and I was eating their food. This diet, oh my goodness, is so limited, you know, but. Oh, no, ours was just robust.

[Assistant] Rich.

[User] Very rich, yeah. It's very Middle Eastern, but it's, they have their own variety. Yeah. Have you had Iranian food ever?

[Assistant] I've had Middle Eastern food, I don't know anything specifically, but I love Middle Eastern food.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've heard. I visited Belize later and I knew they had volunteers there and I was eating their food. This diet, oh my goodness, is so limited, you know, but. Oh, no, ours was just robust.

[Assistant] Rich.

[User] Very rich, yeah. It's very Middle Eastern, but it's, they have their own variety. Yeah. Have you had Iranian food ever?

[Assistant] I've had Middle Eastern food, I don't know anything specifically, but I love Middle Eastern food.

[User] Yeah, it's, it's a little different, but it's wonderful. Yeah. Right.

[Assistant] Any other thoughts or last thoughts or stories that you'd like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very rich, yeah. It's very Middle Eastern, but it's, they have their own variety. Yeah. Have you had Iranian food ever?

[Assistant] I've had Middle Eastern food, I don't know anything specifically, but I love Middle Eastern food.

[User] Yeah, it's, it's a little different, but it's wonderful. Yeah. Right.

[Assistant] Any other thoughts or last thoughts or stories that you'd like to share?

[User] I can't think of any. I think I got. Oh. Oh, the other one I told too. Oh, that's the other thing is that it saved my life.

[Assistant] Peace Corps saved your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. And so they talked to them, the other doctor. Nah, she's fine. We did, you know, we dealt with it. So later on I said, oh, it wasn't that. It couldn't have been. That's deadly. So later on I came back here and I had to go to a regular doctor and I told them about it. He said, no, I bet it was.

[Assistant] Yeah?

[User] I bet it was. Don't doubt that. They see it all the time. You get it from sheep.

[Assistant] So they know what to do with it.

[User] They knew what to do with it. He said that you probably got it when you went to the village. A sheep, it was on a sheep skin and he rubbed you as he went by in that, that shepherd, as he went by and the spore got on you and that's what it was. And he said, there's. I've since learned there's two kinds of anthrax, a topical one, and then the one in your lungs, which is the fatal one. But he said, you know, there was a case he had read. There was a case in Ohio or something. Somebody got that and they didn't know what it was and he died. So you were lucky. They knew, they treat it all the time. So.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know if you'd say Peace Corps saved your life or almost killed you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I bet it was. Don't doubt that. They see it all the time. You get it from sheep.

[Assistant] So they know what to do with it.

[User] They knew what to do with it. He said that you probably got it when you went to the village. A sheep, it was on a sheep skin and he rubbed you as he went by in that, that shepherd, as he went by and the spore got on you and that's what it was. And he said, there's. I've since learned there's two kinds of anthrax, a topical one, and then the one in your lungs, which is the fatal one. But he said, you know, there was a case he had read. There was a case in Ohio or something. Somebody got that and they didn't know what it was and he died. So you were lucky. They knew, they treat it all the time. So.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know if you'd say Peace Corps saved your life or almost killed you.

[User] Right. So that was the other thing. It was good to, eh. Or I was guilty, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, but I was lucky. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Great. Well, you had a great experience and very interesting interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They knew what to do with it. He said that you probably got it when you went to the village. A sheep, it was on a sheep skin and he rubbed you as he went by in that, that shepherd, as he went by and the spore got on you and that's what it was. And he said, there's. I've since learned there's two kinds of anthrax, a topical one, and then the one in your lungs, which is the fatal one. But he said, you know, there was a case he had read. There was a case in Ohio or something. Somebody got that and they didn't know what it was and he died. So you were lucky. They knew, they treat it all the time. So.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know if you'd say Peace Corps saved your life or almost killed you.

[User] Right. So that was the other thing. It was good to, eh. Or I was guilty, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, but I was lucky. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Great. Well, you had a great experience and very interesting interview.

[User] Thank you. Thank you, Jay.

[Assistant] You have anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We do. We have a number of programs here, from K [kindergarten] through 12 and then on into graduate school. We have pre-service teacher programs which help teachers to learn to teach STEM. We started the distance learning program which reaches schools in the most remote locations and lets them interact with our engineers. This helps them see themselves as engineers or scientists.\n\n Some of our folks go out to Explorer Schools and utilize technology to bring NASA into the classrooms and help them grasp, “Well, what is a wind tunnel test?” or “Why do you do that?” So by actually talking to the folks that are doing that work here, they can have a conversation and ask questions.\n\n We’ve seen schools turn around, schools that were in the bottom of the pack. I’ve heard principals tell me these stories and how getting involved with NASA moved the school to the top in the state, because kids realize that that’s not something just somebody else does. “That’s something I can do, and here’s how I do that.” So that’s another thing that’s just a huge point of satisfaction.

[Assistant] Yes, very rewarding.

[User] Very rewarding indeed.

[Assistant] Before we close, is there anything else that you would like to reflect on as NASA enters its next 50 years of discovery and exploration?

[User] No. I look forward to being part of a leadership team that’s going to make the next dreams a reality and inspire the next generation in making history. It is pretty cool to realize “I’m making history – we are making history.” Not many can say that as they go to work each day.

[Assistant] Well, thank you. That’s a good place to stop. We appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll be glad to do anything you want, because I know it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that for you it was pretty clear that going on to a free return trajectory was going to be the way to go. You had assumed that the service module was dead. You couldn’t use the SPS engine. Was there a lot of consideration by other people to doing the direct abort?

[User] There were, and I couldn’t believe that they were even thinking about it there. We never did do it. We never discussed that. For that kind of case, we always were going around. You didn’t have enough. It was too dangerous. But, no, there were people sitting there thinking it was still nominal until they could prove different, and we were wasting time because we were getting to a point that we were going to lose them. They could go around the Moon and we couldn’t tell them and we couldn’t give them the update. In fact, it was close as it was. It was close to tell the crew what to do. When we told them, they had to know what was happening to them. I forgot that part of it. None of that’s ever written in anything, but they’re bound to have known what was going on.

[Assistant] The fact that Apollo 13 was, if I recall, the first of the missions not to be on a free-return trajectory, which I guess was dictated by the length of the flight—

[User] That’s because we carried the Rover in it. We put more weight on it, and we couldn’t do it.

[Assistant] Were there arguments against removing it from a free-return trajectory in the initial flight planning for the mission, something perhaps seen as too dangerous to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. I was just wondering about that.\n\n Did anybody ever bring up about the guys that were supposed to be in quarantine, and the girl? Did that ever come up again?

[Assistant] You mentioned that very briefly at the end of your last interview.

[User] I want somebody else that was over there, that was responsible for it.

[Assistant] You suggested that we ask Chris Kraft.

[User] You ought to ask him what he thought about it.

[Assistant] We can put that one down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want somebody else that was over there, that was responsible for it.

[Assistant] You suggested that we ask Chris Kraft.

[User] You ought to ask him what he thought about it.

[Assistant] We can put that one down.

[User] Did you ever talk to Doctor [Charles A.] Berry?

[Assistant] Yes. Chuck Berry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You ought to ask him what he thought about it.

[Assistant] We can put that one down.

[User] Did you ever talk to Doctor [Charles A.] Berry?

[Assistant] Yes. Chuck Berry.

[User] He’s a guy that should know, because that was his crew that got involved in all that.

[Assistant] He didn’t mention that, but we have talked to him once.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you ever talk to Doctor [Charles A.] Berry?

[Assistant] Yes. Chuck Berry.

[User] He’s a guy that should know, because that was his crew that got involved in all that.

[Assistant] He didn’t mention that, but we have talked to him once.

[User] They did the same thing on the ship coming back from the first lunar flight. The guys were supposed to get in some kind of a—looked like one of those small house trailers. Everybody got so excited about seeing them, I think the Marine guards and everything had to go in there because the guys tried to get through the line. I just remember all of that on that. The quarantine really didn’t work. That’s what’s so out of it, all that money and time sometimes. I don’t want to get into that one, but I just thought about that the other day. I wonder what the lunar Mars thing will be like, wonder what they’ll do.

[Assistant] That should be interesting to see, and how much they build on the experience from the Lunar Receiving Lab and the procedures they developed for coming back from the Moon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] Because I think he had mentioned, I don’t know if it was a similar project or some peripheral involvement with this same one, but he had told a story about ending up out there working on some satellite project.

[User] No, I always worked with communication satellites, and I don’t remember Don. I knew of him. Gosh, Don used to be a flight controller, a systems guy at the Cape. Arnie [Arnold D.] Aldrich took his place. Yes, I remember that. Then he had a bad wreck, on 517 [Farm-Market Road 517], I believe. That was about the time of Skylab. Head-on collision, I understand. How’s he doing?

[Assistant] He’s doing really well. He’s living down in Florida by the Cape, building a boat.

[User] Yes, he was always something else.

[Assistant] We’ve heard some stories about him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I always worked with communication satellites, and I don’t remember Don. I knew of him. Gosh, Don used to be a flight controller, a systems guy at the Cape. Arnie [Arnold D.] Aldrich took his place. Yes, I remember that. Then he had a bad wreck, on 517 [Farm-Market Road 517], I believe. That was about the time of Skylab. Head-on collision, I understand. How’s he doing?

[Assistant] He’s doing really well. He’s living down in Florida by the Cape, building a boat.

[User] Yes, he was always something else.

[Assistant] We’ve heard some stories about him.

[User] No, I really did get into that thing. In fact, I helped him build that launch satellite, that LLMC that went on the Tibetan border. I was really new about that one. I don’t why I didn’t see him, but I saw a lot of commercial guys. I met a lot of them, the Hughes guys and what was Loral now, they were Ford Aerospace, I knew all those guys because they still were there. I worked for the Japanese, too.

[Assistant] We’ve covered quite a bit of your career in the several interviews we’ve done here. I don’t know if there are any segments that we’ve left out that you want to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was always something else.

[Assistant] We’ve heard some stories about him.

[User] No, I really did get into that thing. In fact, I helped him build that launch satellite, that LLMC that went on the Tibetan border. I was really new about that one. I don’t why I didn’t see him, but I saw a lot of commercial guys. I met a lot of them, the Hughes guys and what was Loral now, they were Ford Aerospace, I knew all those guys because they still were there. I worked for the Japanese, too.

[Assistant] We’ve covered quite a bit of your career in the several interviews we’ve done here. I don’t know if there are any segments that we’ve left out that you want to talk about.

[User] No, I’m just glad that you wrote me, and this can be the last one. I don’t have much more to say.

[Assistant] I guess the only thing I wanted to ask you about, if you wanted to talk about it for a few minutes, are some of the stories I guess that you become famous, or infamous for. Everybody we talked to that’s known you says, “Oh, you’ve got to ask John Llewellyn about this or about this.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I really did get into that thing. In fact, I helped him build that launch satellite, that LLMC that went on the Tibetan border. I was really new about that one. I don’t why I didn’t see him, but I saw a lot of commercial guys. I met a lot of them, the Hughes guys and what was Loral now, they were Ford Aerospace, I knew all those guys because they still were there. I worked for the Japanese, too.

[Assistant] We’ve covered quite a bit of your career in the several interviews we’ve done here. I don’t know if there are any segments that we’ve left out that you want to talk about.

[User] No, I’m just glad that you wrote me, and this can be the last one. I don’t have much more to say.

[Assistant] I guess the only thing I wanted to ask you about, if you wanted to talk about it for a few minutes, are some of the stories I guess that you become famous, or infamous for. Everybody we talked to that’s known you says, “Oh, you’ve got to ask John Llewellyn about this or about this.”

[User] I’ll be glad to do that.

[Assistant] So if you just wanted to comment on some of them for a few minutes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll be glad to do that.

[Assistant] So if you just wanted to comment on some of them for a few minutes.

[User] Certainly. And I do remember the one about—but I didn’t think we was supposed to talk about that. That was kind of a DoD thing on that, the one about Jack Schmitt. Where did that come? Did that come in the book? I missed that.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I’ll tell you, that book of Gene’s [Failure is Not an Option] is not bad. Of course, I’ve got to say that. I don’t have to write a resume the rest of my life, I just say, “Get the book.”

[Assistant] That’s a good point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Certainly. And I do remember the one about—but I didn’t think we was supposed to talk about that. That was kind of a DoD thing on that, the one about Jack Schmitt. Where did that come? Did that come in the book? I missed that.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I’ll tell you, that book of Gene’s [Failure is Not an Option] is not bad. Of course, I’ve got to say that. I don’t have to write a resume the rest of my life, I just say, “Get the book.”

[Assistant] That’s a good point.

[User] But he did a pretty good job of writing. I didn’t know he could write that well. I think he did a very good job of turning that thing around after the AS-204 or whatever Apollo that thing we called it [unclear] because I think he’s right. I think that was the first time we all realized. I mean, we had had some really cliffhangers with Gemini, but that was the first thing that we were and we could hear it all and we couldn’t do anything about it. I think that’s the point he made, and I think everybody stuck in mind and made sure that no matter what we did, we’d have a way to do things. I think he set the stage for the way I handled 13, having that book available.

[Assistant] His book has certainly been a valuable resource for us in preparing for interviews and finding other people to talk to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll tell you, that book of Gene’s [Failure is Not an Option] is not bad. Of course, I’ve got to say that. I don’t have to write a resume the rest of my life, I just say, “Get the book.”

[Assistant] That’s a good point.

[User] But he did a pretty good job of writing. I didn’t know he could write that well. I think he did a very good job of turning that thing around after the AS-204 or whatever Apollo that thing we called it [unclear] because I think he’s right. I think that was the first time we all realized. I mean, we had had some really cliffhangers with Gemini, but that was the first thing that we were and we could hear it all and we couldn’t do anything about it. I think that’s the point he made, and I think everybody stuck in mind and made sure that no matter what we did, we’d have a way to do things. I think he set the stage for the way I handled 13, having that book available.

[Assistant] His book has certainly been a valuable resource for us in preparing for interviews and finding other people to talk to.

[User] He did pretty well at it. He picked a lot of things up I had forgotten all about. That thing with [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.], I had forgotten that.

[Assistant] One of the recurring stories we get, and I think it even made it in his book, was the one about you getting your parking pass revoked and having to do the horse. I was wondering if you could give us your version of the events that happened there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He didn’t charged, but it dinged his car. That was the end of the story.\n\n I understand that George Abbey said when I left NASA the first time he went to one of those interdivision things in Building 1, he brought up to the guy who was ever running, he says, “Now I think that you can get rid of a lot of these rent-a-cops because Llewellyn’s gone. You can get rid of half of them.” That’s what I understand happened. They said, “It’s all over, man.” That did start up. That did do it.\n\n I do think about that. The one I can’t understand, I was walking. One day I was over there and it was kind of a nice day, and I says, because it’s changed, “I want to go back to Building 30 because they’ve got that—” You can’t really tell where I did it because they’ve got that glass thing. I says, “God, I can’t believe I did that. I really can’t believe I actually drove up and left it.” It was really out of it. It’s a really out of it deal. To me, it’s funny. It was funny when I did it. It wasn’t funny the way it turned out with all that, but then it turned out okay, too, because it had the horse incident and then it had Dutch driving into the OD, which is great.

[Assistant] That story seems to be the one that most of the people remember that involves you, so it was memorable for quite a few people.

[User] Oh, yes, why is that? It’s another day. But there was a lot of stuff we did. Did anybody ever write—too bad you didn’t get a hold of Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks. He just died.

[Assistant] We did actually interview him.

[User] Did you ever go through him about that Hatch Act thing?

[Assistant] It didn’t come up during his interview. Unfortunately, we only had one day to talk to him and had a lot to cover. We didn’t get a chance to talk about that part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, why is that? It’s another day. But there was a lot of stuff we did. Did anybody ever write—too bad you didn’t get a hold of Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks. He just died.

[Assistant] We did actually interview him.

[User] Did you ever go through him about that Hatch Act thing?

[Assistant] It didn’t come up during his interview. Unfortunately, we only had one day to talk to him and had a lot to cover. We didn’t get a chance to talk about that part.

[User] That was another—not only all the other stuff we did, but that turned out to be a long drawn-out thing. I don’t think many organizations have had that kind of thing going. Has anybody ever talked about that?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t gotten much on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was another—not only all the other stuff we did, but that turned out to be a long drawn-out thing. I don’t think many organizations have had that kind of thing going. Has anybody ever talked about that?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t gotten much on that.

[User] Lunney never mentioned it? He didn’t get in it?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Kraft?

[Assistant] We haven’t talked to him yet. He was waiting until his book came out, at least, to talk to us, which it should be out in a month or two, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s my pleasure. I’m honored to be part of the program.

[Assistant] Great. Well, this morning I think we should begin with your experiences in the Apollo Program. When did you start working on the Apollo Program?

[User] Probably it was early on. I think, as I told you last time, I arrived at the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas] in May of ’62, and by ’64, I was deeply involved in the Apollo reaction control system work. One thing that drove that was the fact that, although I was also working on Gemini, the reaction control system thrusters, their little rocket engines for Gemini and for the Apollo command module, which held the crew, were made by the same company, Rocketdyne in Canoga Park, California, and were almost identical.\n\n In fact, when the contract had been given to Rocketdyne for the Apollo thrusters, the idea was that they would be identical, and therefore would save development money, and that type of thing, turned out not to be the case. But the fact that I was working on Gemini led me, really, into the Apollo ablative thrusters also. And then the thrusters on the service module and on the lunar module, which was contracted for later, were of a different type. They were hard metallic rocket engines, which were cooled by radiation. In other words, they just allowed them to get up to very high temperatures and then radiated away their heat and controlled their temperature by that mechanism.\n\n So I would say by mid-’64 I was deeply involved in the Apollo reaction control system thruster, and my field was specifically working on the thruster, although I was also aware of technology and did periodically work on other components like the propellant tanks, the pressure regulators, the various valves, and the things of that nature.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the idea was to have the Gemini and the Apollo be identical for the RCS [Reaction Control System].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But you mentioned that they weren’t exactly. Can you explain that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was the research in the factual material. It was relating the social sciences to each other. It was interdisciplinary research and it was writing. We had to write lots of papers. It was a very intensive course. So all these things combined to give me some preparation for the work I was to undertake later.

[Assistant] A really good background. What caused you to apply for a position with the Library of Congress?

[User] Well, in August of 1941, the Legislative Reference Service had a position open for an editor of post-war abstracts. We were not in the war yet, but the State Department anticipated that we would get in the war, which we did very shortly, because Pearl Harbor came on in December. They wanted to have a lot of work done in what happens and what do you do after a war was over, because they were assuming that if we were in the war, we were going to win and we would have problems. I was to do research on the post-war problems.\n\n So I became editor of the post-war abstracts, and there I learned how to do research in the library, [where] the Legislative Reference is the research arm of the Congress, and it is set up in order to do factual reports that are not political, but help the members to identify issues and the reasons for and against [issues], so they can make up their mind. So this was a very valuable experience, because as soon as the post-war abstracts were over, I became editor of the [Public Affairs Abstracts which furnished information on problems before Congress.]

[Assistant] We can come back to it if you’d like.

[User] Yes, I didn’t know whether I was getting into your next question.

[Assistant] Well, it’s close, but go ahead. I was going to ask you about some of the special characteristics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The beneficial uses.

[Assistant] What would you regard as the highlights of your career on Capitol Hill?

[User] Well, one of them was my appointment as a Special Consultant to the Senate Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences. One was my work with Lyndon [B.] Johnson on the hearings, on the missile satellites situation. My work with [Congressman] McCormack in the House on the same subject, that is, the legislation that set up NASA, that was very important. Then a highlight was being sent by the Senate to the United Nations and to some foreign conferences. [This experience led to opportunities for keeping abreast of international space activities. In 1995 when the United Nations was celebrating its 59th Anniversary I was invited to speak on “Space Law: Role of the United Nations: Organization and Management.” In 1997 I was invited by the United Nations and the Government of Austria to participate in a seminar at Alpbach, Austria where I gave a paper on “Space Futures and Human Security.”\n\n Then by this time I was promoted from the lowest—I had gone in there at the lowest paying job for a researcher—and I was promoted to the top level. That is, at first I was just what they call P-1, a Professional 1, and I wound up as a Senior Specialist in International Relations/National Security. So that was a highlight.

[Assistant] What time period? How long between those two positions?

[User] Well, I went in 1941, and I guess I became a senior specialist at the time I was working for Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Sometime in the late fifties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, one of them was my appointment as a Special Consultant to the Senate Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences. One was my work with Lyndon [B.] Johnson on the hearings, on the missile satellites situation. My work with [Congressman] McCormack in the House on the same subject, that is, the legislation that set up NASA, that was very important. Then a highlight was being sent by the Senate to the United Nations and to some foreign conferences. [This experience led to opportunities for keeping abreast of international space activities. In 1995 when the United Nations was celebrating its 59th Anniversary I was invited to speak on “Space Law: Role of the United Nations: Organization and Management.” In 1997 I was invited by the United Nations and the Government of Austria to participate in a seminar at Alpbach, Austria where I gave a paper on “Space Futures and Human Security.”\n\n Then by this time I was promoted from the lowest—I had gone in there at the lowest paying job for a researcher—and I was promoted to the top level. That is, at first I was just what they call P-1, a Professional 1, and I wound up as a Senior Specialist in International Relations/National Security. So that was a highlight.

[Assistant] What time period? How long between those two positions?

[User] Well, I went in 1941, and I guess I became a senior specialist at the time I was working for Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Sometime in the late fifties?

[User] Yes [or early sixties].

[Assistant] That’s quite a rise then in prestige and pay and everything else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went in 1941, and I guess I became a senior specialist at the time I was working for Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Sometime in the late fifties?

[User] Yes [or early sixties].

[Assistant] That’s quite a rise then in prestige and pay and everything else.

[User] Yes. Sometimes oral history people ask how I handled the problem of being discriminated against because I was a woman. And I was never discriminated against, and the question always surprised me.

[Assistant] So you never felt like there was a different treatment or that you were treated any differently at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Sometimes oral history people ask how I handled the problem of being discriminated against because I was a woman. And I was never discriminated against, and the question always surprised me.

[Assistant] So you never felt like there was a different treatment or that you were treated any differently at all?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] And this is true in all the space things. There are outstanding positions that women hold in the space [field], not only in the United States, but in other countries.

[Assistant] In the research that we’ve done, it seems to be the case with most of the women that we’ve talked to, that they feel that way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] And this is true in all the space things. There are outstanding positions that women hold in the space [field], not only in the United States, but in other countries.

[Assistant] In the research that we’ve done, it seems to be the case with most of the women that we’ve talked to, that they feel that way.

[User] When you’re in a meeting and there are a lot of people from different walks and people who have specialties or they’re from different nations, nobody cares anything about any of that, because we’re studying a subject and trying to do something with it.

[Assistant] You’re more interested in the subject at hand than who’s actually speaking. Do you have any recollections of Congress in action when working on outer space legislation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they organized the executive branch, they organized the Congress, with two new standing committees. By the fall [of 1958] was when [Dwight D.] Eisenhower had asked Lyndon Johnson to go to the United Nations and help set up the Ad hoc Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, and that showed that we were looking at it from every point of view. We were developing [outer space] from national and international [aspects], and the leadership really came from the Congress. It was a remarkable achievement. By October of that year, we had the first Administrator in at NASA.

[Assistant] That’s amazing. Do you feel that if the United States had not moved that swiftly—I mean, the other countries involved, do you think they would have tried to do the same things as far as setting up the peaceful side of it?

[User] I don’t think they would have had the wherewithal to do it. I mean, you had to have somebody spearheading this. The United States as a whole was the real leader that the scientists and the engineers and the politicians and the economists and everybody got together. There were those three forces, I think I mentioned before, that combined instantly out of fear of orbiting weapons and belief in the benefits that space activities were going to produce.

[Assistant] And it certainly did make a difference.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During that time or after that, you traveled with your husband, as you mentioned earlier, George Galloway, to conferences [of] the Interparliamentary Union, and you went to several different countries when you traveled. Could you tell us about some of your experiences when you were traveling with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One time the American Bar Association invited me to a meeting, and I was fixing my own paper, you know, and typing a round, and someone came up and offered me a job as a typist. I was really very proud of that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ask him how much you’d be making? [Laughter]

[User] No, I’d been tempted to tell him I already had a job.

[Assistant] When you were traveling with your husband, what was the time period in there? You were still working at that time in—

[User] Yes, I was working, but, you know, I have annual leave, and so my annual leave I took at the time when they had the conferences.

[Assistant] So every year whenever you had time off, you would just accumulate it and go with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I’d been tempted to tell him I already had a job.

[Assistant] When you were traveling with your husband, what was the time period in there? You were still working at that time in—

[User] Yes, I was working, but, you know, I have annual leave, and so my annual leave I took at the time when they had the conferences.

[Assistant] So every year whenever you had time off, you would just accumulate it and go with him?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. So you got to travel over most of the world then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was working, but, you know, I have annual leave, and so my annual leave I took at the time when they had the conferences.

[Assistant] So every year whenever you had time off, you would just accumulate it and go with him?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. So you got to travel over most of the world then.

[User] Yes, we did a great deal of traveling, and it was really interesting because we got to meet so many people, and the members of the different legislatures met each other and then they could get in touch with each other later on different subjects, when they wanted to work together on disarmament, for example, or some subject like that, or some economic subject.

[Assistant] You had two sons during this time, too. Did they ever travel with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. So you got to travel over most of the world then.

[User] Yes, we did a great deal of traveling, and it was really interesting because we got to meet so many people, and the members of the different legislatures met each other and then they could get in touch with each other later on different subjects, when they wanted to work together on disarmament, for example, or some subject like that, or some economic subject.

[Assistant] You had two sons during this time, too. Did they ever travel with you?

[User] Yes, yes. My first son [David] was born while I was at Swarthmore. He became news editor of the Los Angeles Times in Costa Mesa, California. A few years ago he died. But he had three children, and so I have those three grandchildren, and from them, four great-grandchildren.\n\n My other son [Jonathan] is a professor at Lake Forest College in Lake Forest, Illinois. He also has three children. So I have lots of grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

[Assistant] You did your traveling on your own, too, with the International Astronautical Federation. Can you share a little about your experience with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could do that with all of the social sciences, that is, identify which ones are needed in order to solve a certain problem.

[Assistant] So you were an expert in solving problems.

[User] So the European Space Agency invited me to their meeting in Beatenburg, Switzerland, also to work on this with regard to the Moon and Mars. I gave a paper on “Space Science and Technology on the Moon-Mars Mission” in Dresden, Germany, and that was how they happened to invite me.\n\n Again, I had an amusing experience. I arrived in Zurich, Switzerland, and the plane comes in and the railroad station is on the bottom, is on the underground. I had to go from the plane to the railroad, so I had a wheelchair that took me there, and the man was very attentive, but when we got to the railroad, it was two hours before I was to leave for Beatenburg. So he didn’t know what to do with me, and he took me to the Lost and Found, and I was the only animate person in this. Everything else was just lost wallets and umbrellas and things like that. But he remembered, fortunately, to get me in time to get on the train for Beatenburg.

[Assistant] So nobody tried to claim you at the Lost and Found?

[User] No, I was unclaimed.

[Assistant] You were unclaimed. When was that? What year did that trip take place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the European Space Agency invited me to their meeting in Beatenburg, Switzerland, also to work on this with regard to the Moon and Mars. I gave a paper on “Space Science and Technology on the Moon-Mars Mission” in Dresden, Germany, and that was how they happened to invite me.\n\n Again, I had an amusing experience. I arrived in Zurich, Switzerland, and the plane comes in and the railroad station is on the bottom, is on the underground. I had to go from the plane to the railroad, so I had a wheelchair that took me there, and the man was very attentive, but when we got to the railroad, it was two hours before I was to leave for Beatenburg. So he didn’t know what to do with me, and he took me to the Lost and Found, and I was the only animate person in this. Everything else was just lost wallets and umbrellas and things like that. But he remembered, fortunately, to get me in time to get on the train for Beatenburg.

[Assistant] So nobody tried to claim you at the Lost and Found?

[User] No, I was unclaimed.

[Assistant] You were unclaimed. When was that? What year did that trip take place?

[User] Well, I don’t remember. I go so many places that I don’t really—I’d have to look that up. [It was in 1994 when the European Space Agency held an International Lunar Workshop: Towards a World Strategy for the Exploration and Utilization of Our Natural Satellite. My paper was on “Political, Legal and Economic Aspects of a Return to the Moon.”]

[Assistant] On the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was unclaimed.

[Assistant] You were unclaimed. When was that? What year did that trip take place?

[User] Well, I don’t remember. I go so many places that I don’t really—I’d have to look that up. [It was in 1994 when the European Space Agency held an International Lunar Workshop: Towards a World Strategy for the Exploration and Utilization of Our Natural Satellite. My paper was on “Political, Legal and Economic Aspects of a Return to the Moon.”]

[Assistant] On the future?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And I’m sure they value your opinion, since you’ve been doing this for so long and they’re still calling you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t remember. I go so many places that I don’t really—I’d have to look that up. [It was in 1994 when the European Space Agency held an International Lunar Workshop: Towards a World Strategy for the Exploration and Utilization of Our Natural Satellite. My paper was on “Political, Legal and Economic Aspects of a Return to the Moon.”]

[Assistant] On the future?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And I’m sure they value your opinion, since you’ve been doing this for so long and they’re still calling you.

[User] Yes, I suppose so. Anyway, the International Astronautical Federation is very important in [bringing] together people from all over the world. They get to know each other, and all these space conferences keep it going in all these countries, because it’s also international. The people know each other and they can solve problems that way and get together more easily.

[Assistant] And, I imagine, promotes that feeling of peace that you all tried to create at the very beginning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And I’m sure they value your opinion, since you’ve been doing this for so long and they’re still calling you.

[User] Yes, I suppose so. Anyway, the International Astronautical Federation is very important in [bringing] together people from all over the world. They get to know each other, and all these space conferences keep it going in all these countries, because it’s also international. The people know each other and they can solve problems that way and get together more easily.

[Assistant] And, I imagine, promotes that feeling of peace that you all tried to create at the very beginning.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Just share the information. There’s quite a few significant differences in the Senate staffing now compared to the way it was when you were involved. What are your thoughts about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And this moves so fast that it’s hard to keep up, but you need to have that in mind when you’re coming to a conclusion.

[Assistant] Well, it is definitely hard to write space history while it happens, and I know the timeliness of it is important. So if you keep all of those things in mind, maybe we won’t have as many problems.\n\n When you were fourteen and deciding you were going to learn to be a dressmaker and then later on thinking about being a secretary or learning those skills so that they would, and they did, come in handy in your life—

[User] Oh, I tell you, they were very handy yesterday. If I hadn’t been able to type, I couldn’t have got that fax off to NASA this morning.

[Assistant] That’s right. Well, when you were learning all those skills and then when you were later at Washington University and Swarthmore College, did you have any idea of the path your life would take?

[User] No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] It just happened that way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I tell you, they were very handy yesterday. If I hadn’t been able to type, I couldn’t have got that fax off to NASA this morning.

[Assistant] That’s right. Well, when you were learning all those skills and then when you were later at Washington University and Swarthmore College, did you have any idea of the path your life would take?

[User] No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] It just happened that way?

[User] Yes, and I didn’t see all these connections until later, you know, when I had time to look back and when I began to be so grateful to some of my teachers and wished that I had been able to tell them that while they were still living, especially my shorthand and typing teacher, Miss Borland. She was a martinet. You know, you couldn’t come to school unless you had done your homework, and you had to do each little Gregg shorthand wiggle exactly the same size as in the book, and you had to do it nine times every night for each one. If you typed a page and you made an overstrike or made any mistake at all—and you had nothing on your keys, you know, you were just looking at a chart—you had to do the whole page over.\n\n Well, this came in very handy. We had a meeting in Stockholm,… Sweden [1960]. This was a meeting of the International Astronautical Federation. I took all my notes in shorthand, and the machinery for recording broke down. I didn’t know this at the time because I just had a shorthand book. No one had any record of this, and this was when the Russian was giving his speech and the U.S. was anxious to know what it was that he said, and we didn’t have that simultaneous translation. I had it all in shorthand in my book, and they were so surprised that I had this. [Laughter] I couldn’t believe it. Meanwhile, I was the one that was surprised because all these other people could speak two languages or three, which I thought was more important.

[Assistant] Your skill, though, at that time was very important since this was the record.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] It just happened that way?

[User] Yes, and I didn’t see all these connections until later, you know, when I had time to look back and when I began to be so grateful to some of my teachers and wished that I had been able to tell them that while they were still living, especially my shorthand and typing teacher, Miss Borland. She was a martinet. You know, you couldn’t come to school unless you had done your homework, and you had to do each little Gregg shorthand wiggle exactly the same size as in the book, and you had to do it nine times every night for each one. If you typed a page and you made an overstrike or made any mistake at all—and you had nothing on your keys, you know, you were just looking at a chart—you had to do the whole page over.\n\n Well, this came in very handy. We had a meeting in Stockholm,… Sweden [1960]. This was a meeting of the International Astronautical Federation. I took all my notes in shorthand, and the machinery for recording broke down. I didn’t know this at the time because I just had a shorthand book. No one had any record of this, and this was when the Russian was giving his speech and the U.S. was anxious to know what it was that he said, and we didn’t have that simultaneous translation. I had it all in shorthand in my book, and they were so surprised that I had this. [Laughter] I couldn’t believe it. Meanwhile, I was the one that was surprised because all these other people could speak two languages or three, which I thought was more important.

[Assistant] Your skill, though, at that time was very important since this was the record.

[User] Yes, it was very handy.

[Assistant] Well, did your parents, when you went to college and they—I’m sure they supported your choices and your career choices.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I didn’t see all these connections until later, you know, when I had time to look back and when I began to be so grateful to some of my teachers and wished that I had been able to tell them that while they were still living, especially my shorthand and typing teacher, Miss Borland. She was a martinet. You know, you couldn’t come to school unless you had done your homework, and you had to do each little Gregg shorthand wiggle exactly the same size as in the book, and you had to do it nine times every night for each one. If you typed a page and you made an overstrike or made any mistake at all—and you had nothing on your keys, you know, you were just looking at a chart—you had to do the whole page over.\n\n Well, this came in very handy. We had a meeting in Stockholm,… Sweden [1960]. This was a meeting of the International Astronautical Federation. I took all my notes in shorthand, and the machinery for recording broke down. I didn’t know this at the time because I just had a shorthand book. No one had any record of this, and this was when the Russian was giving his speech and the U.S. was anxious to know what it was that he said, and we didn’t have that simultaneous translation. I had it all in shorthand in my book, and they were so surprised that I had this. [Laughter] I couldn’t believe it. Meanwhile, I was the one that was surprised because all these other people could speak two languages or three, which I thought was more important.

[Assistant] Your skill, though, at that time was very important since this was the record.

[User] Yes, it was very handy.

[Assistant] Well, did your parents, when you went to college and they—I’m sure they supported your choices and your career choices.

[User] [My parents were divorced when I was nine years old.] My mother died when I was—she died very young.

[Assistant] When you were still a child?