[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which now looking back is sort of laughable because at the time that I was even in school, they were telling us that, you know, the times were changing. People aren't really referring to print reading as much as often, as much as they did previously. And international studies was kind of an area that I really was interested in going into. I was at the time also looking at like Foreign Service and, you know, those careers later on down the line. But yeah, I think Peace Corps just sounded appealing to me for so many reasons, not just because of the aspect of getting to go out into the world and try something different, but also because of the training that they give you, everything that's embedded in there. It was all very different from anything that anyone in my family had ever done.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, yeah, even though I said that my family, they're immigrants from India, and they very much appreciated the fact that I wanted to go and live in these situations that they are more familiar with in India. I still had to sit down and talk to my mom about what the Peace Corps actually was because it wasn't something that was on her radar either. So, yeah, it took a little bit of convincing, I think. But in the end, I realized that that was probably the only logical path for me after college.

[Assistant] Yeah, wonderful. So you completed your application and finally got your invitation and you left in?

[User] August of 2010.

[Assistant] OK. And so tell me what happened when your plane landed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, yeah, they make a party out of coming to the Capitol to greet the new batch of volunteers. So we were just greeted with the screaming crowd of, like, you know, paparazzi like so. And I think I remember someone, because there's a Peace Corps volunteer magazine in the Dominican Republic called the Gringo Grita. And someone took a picture of me walking out into that screaming excitement, and that picture ended up in that issue of the Grita. So I have a picture of my own face like looking so excited and also exhausted with my glasses and my hair in a bun. So, yeah, I have an actual photograph of myself stepping out of the airport.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] I ended up writing for the Grita for at least three issues after that, on the staff.

[Assistant] Right, journalism.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So after you got there and were greeted, what was your training experience like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I ended up writing for the Grita for at least three issues after that, on the staff.

[Assistant] Right, journalism.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So after you got there and were greeted, what was your training experience like?

[User]
So training in the Dominican Republic was held in a sort of outskirts of Santo Domingo, an area called Pantoja, and they had a big training center there. And it was very, you know, very lush and garden like, there's lots of little sort of, what do you call it, gazebos. We called them, alas, all sitting around all these lawns and gardens. And it was very quiet, strangely, even though it was in the middle of this busy city suburb. And our trainings were very intimate, broken off into small groups. The trainers were, of course, all Dominican, with lots of experience working with Peace Corps volunteers for years. And so it felt very welcoming. It felt very at home. Peace Corps volunteers would come from their sites to also participate in the training, which also helped, because then we had a visual on, you know, different people that were out there doing the work that we were going to do.

And it was also just a great way to be embedded in this neighborhood because the host families that we were staying with initially were around the training center. So we all walked to training together every morning. And, you know, being in the capital, we were able to do a little bit of exploring, some cultural sites and things like that since Santo Domingo has such a rich history in the Caribbean. And so, yeah, it felt like we could get out there and start experiencing the country, but also have our quiet reflection time to come back and talk with both Dominican and American staff and, you know, sort of help ourselves process as we were getting started.

[Assistant] Yeah. Tell me about your host family. Did you have a host family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So training in the Dominican Republic was held in a sort of outskirts of Santo Domingo, an area called Pantoja, and they had a big training center there. And it was very, you know, very lush and garden like, there's lots of little sort of, what do you call it, gazebos. We called them, alas, all sitting around all these lawns and gardens. And it was very quiet, strangely, even though it was in the middle of this busy city suburb. And our trainings were very intimate, broken off into small groups. The trainers were, of course, all Dominican, with lots of experience working with Peace Corps volunteers for years. And so it felt very welcoming. It felt very at home. Peace Corps volunteers would come from their sites to also participate in the training, which also helped, because then we had a visual on, you know, different people that were out there doing the work that we were going to do.

And it was also just a great way to be embedded in this neighborhood because the host families that we were staying with initially were around the training center. So we all walked to training together every morning. And, you know, being in the capital, we were able to do a little bit of exploring, some cultural sites and things like that since Santo Domingo has such a rich history in the Caribbean. And so, yeah, it felt like we could get out there and start experiencing the country, but also have our quiet reflection time to come back and talk with both Dominican and American staff and, you know, sort of help ourselves process as we were getting started.

[Assistant] Yeah. Tell me about your host family. Did you have a host family?

[User] I had three host families throughout my whole service.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So should I tell you about all three of them or just?

[Assistant] Tell me about training and we'll come back to the other ones.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So did you ever get to see your site before you moved there?

[User] I did. Part of training, and that was where the sort of community-based thing was. We were not just out in a site, in a rural area together as a team, but then they also included a weekend where we had to go visit another Peace Corps volunteer in their site. That was part of the sort of training that we got. And then the other part of that was later on when they assigned us our sites, we were sent there for a weekend to check it out and then come back for our swearing in ceremony and then go back to our sites to actually be there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I think I visited my site for like a day or so because it's really not far from the capital. It's like maybe an hour and a half drive from the capital. So I was one of the lucky ones that had that sort of convenient access to the Peace Corps office. And so, yeah, I remember going to my site, checking it out, meeting people. And my site was on the beach, so they did take me to the beach. They did walk me around, show me the school, all of that stuff. And yeah, and they really, I think Peace Corps had done a lot of work. Our APCD, Adele Williams, had done a lot of work for the youth volunteers to cultivate that confianza with the community, so they were ready and waiting for me. They were like, as soon as you're finished your ceremony, you'll be back. We're so excited to have you. Already, they were treating me like a member of the family, and I was there for a couple of days.

[Assistant] Yeah, awesome. So tell me about swearing in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Swearing in was great. It was also held at the Pantoja training site, so lots of good opportunities for pretty pictures. I dressed up and the thing that you know, Dominican women like to do is get like really outrageous nails done at the salon. So I went and did that for the first time, which is fun. Got it to match my dress. And Dona Belkis came, and she also brought her husband. So that was really nice. And most of the Peace Corps volunteers host families came to that, host families in the capital, I mean, came to that swearing in ceremony. And yeah, it was really great. I remember how profound it was to like, raise your hand and say, and everybody swearing in together. We elected one of my friends, her name is Phoebe Sunflower, and she had just this wonderfully warm, inspiring personality, and we elected her to give the address on behalf of our cohort at the swearing in ceremony. So that was really nice. Romeo Massey, our director, gave each one of us this pen as we walked across the stage. And so, yeah, it was a really inspiring day, and I think we were all ready to get out there. But it was also sad to be like, oh, this part of it's over. Now we have to kind of build camaraderie in a different place with different people.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you moved to your site. And you stayed with a host family at your site also?

[User] Yes, the requirement was three months.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] I stayed for six months with my host family.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. They just asked you to stay longer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I stayed for six months with my host family.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. They just asked you to stay longer?

[User]
Well, yeah, I mean, I had a really good relationship with my host family in my site, in Carlos Pintos. They were, I mean, not very rich, but they wielded a lot of influence. The mother of the family, her name was Nancy. She was the president of the local health committee, which was the organization that the Peace Corps volunteer has been partnered with. So they were my sort of host organization, and she was also very. Both her children were police officers. Her husband, my host dad Julian, was also very influential in the community. They were just known as a very respectable family, very hardworking family, very invested in the community and invested in their neighbors. So when they took in this Peace Corps volunteer, me, I got to enjoy the respect that this family had already built for itself, and I continued to feed into that.

So, you know, a lot of the work that I did, I think, you know, I'm so eternally grateful to them for helping me with that because Peace Corps volunteers come in with zero context. And so to have the backing and the trust of this wonderful, powerful family really helped my work along, I think. And so, yeah, I stayed with them for the required three months, but my relationship with them was so good and they were just like, you stay as long as you want. You can stay the whole two years if you want.

[Assistant] Aww.

[User] And I said, I will stay for six months, but I do want to try the experience of living on my own here, having my own house, all of that. And they helped me find my own house just around the corner from where they lived, with a distant relative of theirs, who had a giant plot of land. And they helped me set up everything for that house and I still did my laundry with them. I still ate meals at least twice a week with them. And so I saw them every day.

[Assistant] That's so lovely.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, yeah, I mean, I had a really good relationship with my host family in my site, in Carlos Pintos. They were, I mean, not very rich, but they wielded a lot of influence. The mother of the family, her name was Nancy. She was the president of the local health committee, which was the organization that the Peace Corps volunteer has been partnered with. So they were my sort of host organization, and she was also very. Both her children were police officers. Her husband, my host dad Julian, was also very influential in the community. They were just known as a very respectable family, very hardworking family, very invested in the community and invested in their neighbors. So when they took in this Peace Corps volunteer, me, I got to enjoy the respect that this family had already built for itself, and I continued to feed into that.

So, you know, a lot of the work that I did, I think, you know, I'm so eternally grateful to them for helping me with that because Peace Corps volunteers come in with zero context. And so to have the backing and the trust of this wonderful, powerful family really helped my work along, I think. And so, yeah, I stayed with them for the required three months, but my relationship with them was so good and they were just like, you stay as long as you want. You can stay the whole two years if you want.

[Assistant] Aww.

[User] And I said, I will stay for six months, but I do want to try the experience of living on my own here, having my own house, all of that. And they helped me find my own house just around the corner from where they lived, with a distant relative of theirs, who had a giant plot of land. And they helped me set up everything for that house and I still did my laundry with them. I still ate meals at least twice a week with them. And so I saw them every day.

[Assistant] That's so lovely.

[User] So, yeah, it was they were very they were very powerful and very potent in my Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] So tell me about your new house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Put in like a little bucket shower area. Helped me to procure like all my furniture and like a gas tank and a fridge full of stuff. They helped me. All I did was basically pay for it with the Peace Corps, like, you know, stipend that they give you.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I paid for it and they basically set up this house for me.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] My host brother even surprised me by painting it ocean blue inside, and my host dad made me curtains to separate the rooms because there were no doors inside. It was a two-room house with an added sort of lean-to bathroom area where the toilet and the bucket shower and my giant water tank was. But one of the two rooms was basically my kitchen and sitting area. And in the other room was the bedroom. And I loved that house so much. And even though my American family, when they came and saw it, and my Dominican host family and they were like, why are you living like this? This is not like a fancy house at all. You should be living in a concrete block house. But I liked my little wooden house with the tin roof. And you know, it was not sealed. So at night fireflies would come in and I could see them from underneath my mosquito nets when the power went out. Sometimes, you know, little critters would come in, like lizards, and climb across the maps that I tacked to the wall and the dogs on the property would come hang out on the front porch. They put the cattle behind my house at night, so like I could sort of feel their presence on the other side of the wall.

[Assistant] Sounds like a very loud living situation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly. So that was a really warm moment for me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. So I don't think we've talked about your projects at all yet.

[User] No, not yet. So youth development projects are interesting because they kind of spread into all the other sectors. I had three iterations of Chicas Brillantes, which is the Dominican version of GLOW. And then I also had Escojo Mi Vida, which was the HIV AIDS teen health promoter program. It was a multiplier course in which you teach one and then they become certified to do another. You can do it in other styles, too, but that was the way I chose to run that program.

[Assistant] Can I interrupt you really quick?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Can you translate the names of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was really through them that I, that that site was made available to Peace Corps, because they had never had a Peace Corps volunteer before me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I was shared between this local and this international organization, which is really kind of weird. But the complex was open to me any time I needed to. I would have to like trek through the, you know, the dry creek bed and through the jungle, or to pay for a motorcycle to get there. But they also had baseball games at the diamond there, because a lot of American recruiters were going to find players. So I would go with the kids to watch baseball games for free, which would be fun.

[Assistant] Cool.

[User] And then, of course, my graduations for my various youth groups, we got free run of that beautiful space so that it was a really special occasion. For example, when my Escojo Mi Vida group graduated and became multipliers of that HIV AIDS and sexual health training, we held the graduation there. And so the families dressed up, they took it very seriously. I presented certificates, there was a cake. And yeah, it was just an opportunity for them to have this sort of professional experience and really enjoy the celebration of it, not just something we were doing in like a random classroom in the community. This is something to be recognized. So, yeah, so there was a lot going on.

[Assistant] Yeah. You called them youth groups. What age counts as youth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was shared between this local and this international organization, which is really kind of weird. But the complex was open to me any time I needed to. I would have to like trek through the, you know, the dry creek bed and through the jungle, or to pay for a motorcycle to get there. But they also had baseball games at the diamond there, because a lot of American recruiters were going to find players. So I would go with the kids to watch baseball games for free, which would be fun.

[Assistant] Cool.

[User] And then, of course, my graduations for my various youth groups, we got free run of that beautiful space so that it was a really special occasion. For example, when my Escojo Mi Vida group graduated and became multipliers of that HIV AIDS and sexual health training, we held the graduation there. And so the families dressed up, they took it very seriously. I presented certificates, there was a cake. And yeah, it was just an opportunity for them to have this sort of professional experience and really enjoy the celebration of it, not just something we were doing in like a random classroom in the community. This is something to be recognized. So, yeah, so there was a lot going on.

[Assistant] Yeah. You called them youth groups. What age counts as youth?

[User] So my groups, I think the youngest were like 11 and the oldest, the oldest one was 23. But the 23 year old, I mean, she was exactly my age at the time, and she really helped facilitate more than. She participated in the classes as the student for a while. And then later on, I brought her in as my sort of co-teacher. So I think once people leave for university, it gets harder to reach them. But the teenagers, particularly, were the ones who most easily clustered around me. So that was.

[Assistant] If you had to pick a favorite, what would you say was your favorite project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Work always expands to fill the available time, and there’s nothing like a schedule to bring the team to focus. We had an aggressive schedule to build the FGB [functional cargo block], which was a U.S. paid-for element that Khrunichev [Production Center] built, and then the Russian elements would soon form the backbone of the station. Necessity is the mother of invention, so the schedule was the impetus, the driver that pushed us to forge those relationships and make the progress that we did. There were a lot of bumps in the road along the way. We did not meet—the Russians didn’t meet their initial promised date; they were actually two years late on the Service Module. But of course we put that time to really good use; we had used the time to do a lot more ground testing of the U.S. segment and were able to really give us a lot higher confidence in the pedigree of the hardware that the U.S. was sending to Space Station. So that’s what I think was the ultimate driver of the progress that we made.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were there for 10 years, but along this progression, at what point did you move?

[User] I left Space Station shortly after the node launched.

[Assistant] So you got to see—

[User] I got to see the first elements launched. I actually had an opportunity to go—I’d spent 10 years working on building Space Station, I wanted to then go use Space Station. I was excited about its prospects as an orbiting research platform. There was an opportunity that came up, at the time it was called the Space and Life Sciences Directorate, working different payloads, because it was exciting, the prospects of the microgravity research. So I spent several years doing that before I was pulled back into the flight programs when Constellation kicked off.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you saw the door opened? There’s got to be some feeling of satisfaction or reward when you got to see the two modules unite, then astronauts taking full-time residence. Can you share some of the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I left Space Station shortly after the node launched.

[Assistant] So you got to see—

[User] I got to see the first elements launched. I actually had an opportunity to go—I’d spent 10 years working on building Space Station, I wanted to then go use Space Station. I was excited about its prospects as an orbiting research platform. There was an opportunity that came up, at the time it was called the Space and Life Sciences Directorate, working different payloads, because it was exciting, the prospects of the microgravity research. So I spent several years doing that before I was pulled back into the flight programs when Constellation kicked off.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you saw the door opened? There’s got to be some feeling of satisfaction or reward when you got to see the two modules unite, then astronauts taking full-time residence. Can you share some of the—

[User] Oh, sure. That’s what really motivates us NASA engineers, you know, is seeing the fruits of our labor finally realized by flying, which is why it’s so tough for us nowadays when we don’t have a human spaceflight capability. These are years we have to weather the storm, and it’s harder to come to work. Which is motivating us, like on Orion or a commercial crew, that we feel that the United States needs to have a place as a world leader in technology and human spaceflight, we should have a preeminent role in that. We’re hard believers in our country’s leadership role in technology and want to play a role in that.

[Assistant] You said you spent some time in the human and life sciences area. Were you working on elements to go as far as what they were doing to go to Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I should keep my answers shorter.

[Assistant] Oh, no, [that came out wrong]! This is great, because a lot of times you answer them, but then sometimes I come up with different questions. How much time does a crew spend training on the ground for how many hours they’re in space? Does that make sense? Do you have a stat for that? I know that EVA is like seven hours in the pool for every hour they’re outside.

[User] Yes. I might need to go and get that number for you. That would be pretty easy to get.

[Assistant] I thought that might be interesting to put in the chapter, because I think that would be one of those factors that people go, “Wow, that’s a lot of work for a 15-day mission.”

[User] Actually, that’s definitely a number that I can get for you, because now that you mention it, I’d like to know that myself. [Integrated simulations are a relatively] small part of the whole picture. There [are] about 4 launch/ascent sims and about 4 entry[/landing] sims that every crew does. They’ll [also] do what [we] call a deorbit prep, which is the last 6 hours before landing, putting away everything in the cabin and getting ready to come home and then landing. There’s one called a post-insertion, which is where you launch and then do the activities [scheduled] right after getting into orbit. There’s a lot of cabin setup that has to be done after all the shake, rattle, and rolling of launch, and now you can get everything out and set it up.\n\n Besides those simulations, our orbit sim template was somewhere around 100 hours, I think, of orbit sims. Approximately 120 hrs.

[Assistant] Can you share an example from one or two of those integrated sims for us? Some of the things that you were working on? Maybe some of the challenges or malfunctions that you encountered that stand out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I might need to go and get that number for you. That would be pretty easy to get.

[Assistant] I thought that might be interesting to put in the chapter, because I think that would be one of those factors that people go, “Wow, that’s a lot of work for a 15-day mission.”

[User] Actually, that’s definitely a number that I can get for you, because now that you mention it, I’d like to know that myself. [Integrated simulations are a relatively] small part of the whole picture. There [are] about 4 launch/ascent sims and about 4 entry[/landing] sims that every crew does. They’ll [also] do what [we] call a deorbit prep, which is the last 6 hours before landing, putting away everything in the cabin and getting ready to come home and then landing. There’s one called a post-insertion, which is where you launch and then do the activities [scheduled] right after getting into orbit. There’s a lot of cabin setup that has to be done after all the shake, rattle, and rolling of launch, and now you can get everything out and set it up.\n\n Besides those simulations, our orbit sim template was somewhere around 100 hours, I think, of orbit sims. Approximately 120 hrs.

[Assistant] Can you share an example from one or two of those integrated sims for us? Some of the things that you were working on? Maybe some of the challenges or malfunctions that you encountered that stand out?

[User] That’s a good question. I’m trying to think if there’s a specific example. It’s been a long time.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. Like I said, it’s been a while, and these are very specific questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, that’s definitely a number that I can get for you, because now that you mention it, I’d like to know that myself. [Integrated simulations are a relatively] small part of the whole picture. There [are] about 4 launch/ascent sims and about 4 entry[/landing] sims that every crew does. They’ll [also] do what [we] call a deorbit prep, which is the last 6 hours before landing, putting away everything in the cabin and getting ready to come home and then landing. There’s one called a post-insertion, which is where you launch and then do the activities [scheduled] right after getting into orbit. There’s a lot of cabin setup that has to be done after all the shake, rattle, and rolling of launch, and now you can get everything out and set it up.\n\n Besides those simulations, our orbit sim template was somewhere around 100 hours, I think, of orbit sims. Approximately 120 hrs.

[Assistant] Can you share an example from one or two of those integrated sims for us? Some of the things that you were working on? Maybe some of the challenges or malfunctions that you encountered that stand out?

[User] That’s a good question. I’m trying to think if there’s a specific example. It’s been a long time.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. Like I said, it’s been a while, and these are very specific questions.

[User] There’s not anything that really jumps out at me as a specific example from one of those. I’m trying to think of an example of a type of failure. Wow! That’s a great question.

[Assistant] Did you simulate any failures with the boom, for instance? Did you have any problems with that freezing up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a good question. I’m trying to think if there’s a specific example. It’s been a long time.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. Like I said, it’s been a while, and these are very specific questions.

[User] There’s not anything that really jumps out at me as a specific example from one of those. I’m trying to think of an example of a type of failure. Wow! That’s a great question.

[Assistant] Did you simulate any failures with the boom, for instance? Did you have any problems with that freezing up?

[User] Yes, we did. I know we did simulate the boom transfer and all the robotics choreography. Actually now that I’m over in training management, this is [an example of] something that we talk with future teams as we get into the simulation plans for them. Throwing everything off the timeline and into never-never land really can be sometimes detrimental to the team, because it takes away the focus on getting ready for the mission. In other words, there’s a balance. Every once in a while, we talk about how it’s nice to see a nominal timeline once in a while, because it means hey, “This is what we’re actually going to do”, and running through it as a dry run for some of the complex timelines is pretty important.\n\n I do recall some power issues that needed to be sorted out, if I remember correctly, on the Shuttle side, to make sure that we were going to feel confident that we could provide power to the boom once it got handed off to us. But I don’t remember the specifics. But there were things like that that we had to talk about, maybe do some work with the crew to throw some circuit breakers and check some things on orbit to make sure. Sometimes reconfigure some systems on orbit to be able to ensure that we have what we need when we got the boom transferred.

[Assistant] At what point do you decide you’re ready to fly? What’s that process? When do you hit that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s not anything that really jumps out at me as a specific example from one of those. I’m trying to think of an example of a type of failure. Wow! That’s a great question.

[Assistant] Did you simulate any failures with the boom, for instance? Did you have any problems with that freezing up?

[User] Yes, we did. I know we did simulate the boom transfer and all the robotics choreography. Actually now that I’m over in training management, this is [an example of] something that we talk with future teams as we get into the simulation plans for them. Throwing everything off the timeline and into never-never land really can be sometimes detrimental to the team, because it takes away the focus on getting ready for the mission. In other words, there’s a balance. Every once in a while, we talk about how it’s nice to see a nominal timeline once in a while, because it means hey, “This is what we’re actually going to do”, and running through it as a dry run for some of the complex timelines is pretty important.\n\n I do recall some power issues that needed to be sorted out, if I remember correctly, on the Shuttle side, to make sure that we were going to feel confident that we could provide power to the boom once it got handed off to us. But I don’t remember the specifics. But there were things like that that we had to talk about, maybe do some work with the crew to throw some circuit breakers and check some things on orbit to make sure. Sometimes reconfigure some systems on orbit to be able to ensure that we have what we need when we got the boom transferred.

[Assistant] At what point do you decide you’re ready to fly? What’s that process? When do you hit that point?

[User] Let’s see. I’m trying to think of where to start.

[Assistant] It’s probably a complicated question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes it was, it really was.

[Assistant] What was it like working with a new international partner, with having the Japanese on board?

[User] I got a lot of satisfaction out of it having been a Station flight director for probably the first 4 years or so of my flight director career. Not really having a chance to work with them before that, or even the Europeans for that matter. The Russians and the Canadians I’d worked with quite a bit. But the Europeans came along, their module, after I had gone back over to the Shuttle side. But to me, having JAXA come on in such a big way on this mission was really really satisfying. Having Aki [Akihiko] Hoshide on board and doing the work and getting into the module and getting it activated from the crew perspective. Then to have, finally, all the partners involved in the effort in the Space Station Program was really phenomenal.\n\n They had been involved in the previous mission [to install] the logistics module. I always thought about it like a closet; [it’s] small. That ultimately got relocated onto the big module on our mission. They had been involved [on STS-123], but it wasn’t really in a major, critical, we’re not going to get everything done without them” way [until STS-124]. You could hear the satisfaction and the pride in their voices, hearing them talk with Aki on orbit, the Japanese flight control team and their CapCom equivalent talking with the crew. The satisfaction and pride that they had was really so great to hear. As a flight director, seeing all the partners around the world now part of this operation was just fantastic, really really cool.

[Assistant] Were there any lessons learned that you passed along from this flight?

[User] You mean with respect to the international partner aspect, or just in general?

[Assistant] Just in general. Anything that you learned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean with respect to the international partner aspect, or just in general?

[Assistant] Just in general. Anything that you learned.

[User] There’s always a lot of little things that we find. Things went so very very well. I know we reinforced a lot of the things that we try to do about staying ahead of ourselves wherever we can. Thinking one step ahead, which is pretty much normal day-to-day business. It’s the way we try to operate. The way a lot of folks say is, “Try to stay ahead of the vehicle.” You try to stay one step ahead of what might be going on, thinking about possibly the next worst failure that might come up, and be thinking about that so if it happens you’re prepared, and if it doesn’t happen, well, that’s okay, you were ready for it. Something happens that isn’t quite as bad, well, you were prepared for worse than that.\n\n If you prepare appropriately and the vehicle and the hardware behave themselves the way they’re supposed to—it’s like your car or your house, you never know what’s going to happen sometimes—but the preparation is everything. All the work that you do planning and preparing for failures and things not going right, the more you do that, the better chance you have when it comes down to getting things done, getting through them without a hitch.\n\n We were really fortunate that we didn’t have to dive into those bags of tricks very much at all in this mission. But because of the planning and preparation, I knew that we were ready for whatever might come along.

[Assistant] Well, we’re getting close to your time.

[User] I didn’t even realize how much time had passed. Wow.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you think we should know, either about the mission itself or about planning, training, and flying that we haven’t talked about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, and not knowing about NASA, just getting there and just seeing this man come in and kind of demanding that he could just walk in and just go straight in. One of the other people that I worked with on a real regular basis, because of several different things, was Neil [A.] Armstrong. He lived, at the time, in a place called Littlerock [California], actually he lived next to Betty [Scott] Love, and he used to sing, and we would have him come and sing for our parties and those types of things.

[Assistant] Were there specific types of songs that he liked to sing?

[User] You know, I don’t remember that, I just remember that when we sang, he sang, that type of thing. Very nice man, very humble, very quiet. Then one of the other things that you ask about here is things that went on as far as what we did. I believe that we were on a bowling team together. That’s where I met my husband. Actually, my husband worked there, but he and I were on the bowling team together. There was also a group of women got together and they formed what was called WONASA, but that was after NACA changed to NASA in 1958.

[Assistant] You were there during that transition. You had just started, and then within a year it changed.

[User] It was about a year, yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us if there was anything significant about the transition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was working for NACA in Cleveland, and his mother had transferred out to Fontana [California]; his uncle had opened a business. He asked to be relocated somewhere where they flew aircraft, and he had two choices. He had either San Francisco, which would have been Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field] at the time, or NACA [High Speed Flight Station], and he chose to do NACA because they were flying, the beginning of the [Bell] X-1 projects, so he opted to do that instead. That’s why he came out. Then he retired from NASA in 1990; had 38 years of service with them.

[Assistant] That was watching a lot of changes, wasn’t it?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] And you were right there with him, I would imagine.

[User] Most of the time. I actually worked at NASA three different times. I worked there from 1957 through 1961, and then from 1965 for about two weeks, for a real short period of time, and then I went back to NASA in 1997 and I retired there.

[Assistant] How many years did you stay from ‘97, when did you retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] And you were right there with him, I would imagine.

[User] Most of the time. I actually worked at NASA three different times. I worked there from 1957 through 1961, and then from 1965 for about two weeks, for a real short period of time, and then I went back to NASA in 1997 and I retired there.

[Assistant] How many years did you stay from ‘97, when did you retire?

[User] In 2000, 2001. Three years, I retired from NASA.

[Assistant] Were you in the same type of procurement position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of the time. I actually worked at NASA three different times. I worked there from 1957 through 1961, and then from 1965 for about two weeks, for a real short period of time, and then I went back to NASA in 1997 and I retired there.

[Assistant] How many years did you stay from ‘97, when did you retire?

[User] In 2000, 2001. Three years, I retired from NASA.

[Assistant] Were you in the same type of procurement position?

[User] No, oh no.

[Assistant] Share with us all the different areas that you worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In 2000, 2001. Three years, I retired from NASA.

[Assistant] Were you in the same type of procurement position?

[User] No, oh no.

[Assistant] Share with us all the different areas that you worked.

[User] Let’s see. I worked for NASA as a typist secretary, then when I worked for them before I was in Personnel for a short period of time, and then when I went back I was in what was then called Human Resources. In the interim, though, I worked for the Air Force and for the Defense Logistics Agency [DLA], and most of those times it was in Human Resources, Quality Assurance, that type of thing.

[Assistant] We always think of technology changing for hardware, but technology also impacted a lot of what Human Resources did, didn’t it, how you kept files?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, oh no.

[Assistant] Share with us all the different areas that you worked.

[User] Let’s see. I worked for NASA as a typist secretary, then when I worked for them before I was in Personnel for a short period of time, and then when I went back I was in what was then called Human Resources. In the interim, though, I worked for the Air Force and for the Defense Logistics Agency [DLA], and most of those times it was in Human Resources, Quality Assurance, that type of thing.

[Assistant] We always think of technology changing for hardware, but technology also impacted a lot of what Human Resources did, didn’t it, how you kept files?

[User] When we did the Human Resources, that was the biggest impact, I think, because when I first started working for DLA, I was assigned to the Air Force Academy for six months, and that was a transition where they were going from the paper copy to automated processes, so that continued on through my career with the Air Force, having two sets of records, paper copies and then putting everything on a computer of some sort.

[Assistant] And making sure they both say the same thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. I worked for NASA as a typist secretary, then when I worked for them before I was in Personnel for a short period of time, and then when I went back I was in what was then called Human Resources. In the interim, though, I worked for the Air Force and for the Defense Logistics Agency [DLA], and most of those times it was in Human Resources, Quality Assurance, that type of thing.

[Assistant] We always think of technology changing for hardware, but technology also impacted a lot of what Human Resources did, didn’t it, how you kept files?

[User] When we did the Human Resources, that was the biggest impact, I think, because when I first started working for DLA, I was assigned to the Air Force Academy for six months, and that was a transition where they were going from the paper copy to automated processes, so that continued on through my career with the Air Force, having two sets of records, paper copies and then putting everything on a computer of some sort.

[Assistant] And making sure they both say the same thing?

[User] Yes, and to this day people still do backup copies of paper, because if your computer crashes, you’re lost.

[Assistant] What other aspects of the Human Resources or Personnel did you work in? At some point did you manage a group of people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we did the Human Resources, that was the biggest impact, I think, because when I first started working for DLA, I was assigned to the Air Force Academy for six months, and that was a transition where they were going from the paper copy to automated processes, so that continued on through my career with the Air Force, having two sets of records, paper copies and then putting everything on a computer of some sort.

[Assistant] And making sure they both say the same thing?

[User] Yes, and to this day people still do backup copies of paper, because if your computer crashes, you’re lost.

[Assistant] What other aspects of the Human Resources or Personnel did you work in? At some point did you manage a group of people?

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] You were always just the hands-on, doing that as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and to this day people still do backup copies of paper, because if your computer crashes, you’re lost.

[Assistant] What other aspects of the Human Resources or Personnel did you work in? At some point did you manage a group of people?

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] You were always just the hands-on, doing that as well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What about some of the other changes? The fact that you came in, and you were out, I’d have to think that over the time period you saw—and of course your husband working out there—you saw changes happen at the base and/or some of the aircraft that was going in and out. Were you able to go in and see the aircraft that landed and know much about what was going on at the base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] You were always just the hands-on, doing that as well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What about some of the other changes? The fact that you came in, and you were out, I’d have to think that over the time period you saw—and of course your husband working out there—you saw changes happen at the base and/or some of the aircraft that was going in and out. Were you able to go in and see the aircraft that landed and know much about what was going on at the base?

[User] Well, I tell kind of an interesting story. I think it’s interesting. One of the things that we used to do on our breaks, we used to go into the—at the time there were two large hangars, right and left—and we used to go into the left hangar and we used to play Ping-Pong. We’d eat our sandwich real quick and go out and play Ping-Pong, just for some exercise. We were out playing one day, and all of a sudden all the doors to the hangar shut and we were told immediately to go into our offices and not to say anything to anybody. Naturally you’re curious, but you go back to your desk.\n\n Got home, and on the news that night, that was one of the aircraft that had come in, one of the spy planes had come in and had landed, and they just didn’t want anybody to know about it. I believe, but I’m not positive, it was [Francis] Gary Powers at the time that he was flying, but the fact that we were there and we saw something but we didn’t know what we saw, and we were told to shut up and not say anything.

[Assistant] Did you feel a lot of the work or a lot of the people that you worked around were working on projects that were classified or secret for security reasons?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, we did that. In fact, was it last year, two years ago? When they ferried it? It came right over our house. Right over. I live across the street from a school, and so all the school kids were out in the field and you can see it, and they did a double pass; they came this way. When the Shuttle would land, we’d get those two [sonic] booms, so you could go out and watch, you could see it come over. That was exciting, in fact.

[Assistant] I saw your bracelet. Tell us about what those [charms] are.

[User] It’s all the different ones [California Shuttle landings]. My daughter put this together.

[Assistant] That was nice of her. Are your children involved in any way, having two parents who were there?

[User] Yes, my one son worked there as a contractor for about, probably 10 or 15 years. He worked for ABC. ABC used to do the broadcasting. My other son worked there as a contractor for several years, he worked for PCR, and then he was a NASA employee for about three years, and he resigned from there and he works for a company in Orlando, Florida. The one worked on the range, for the tracking of things, and he worked there for about 10 years; he doesn’t work there anymore.

[Assistant] When you first started, you mentioned that you were here and then had started college. Were you raised in this area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s all the different ones [California Shuttle landings]. My daughter put this together.

[Assistant] That was nice of her. Are your children involved in any way, having two parents who were there?

[User] Yes, my one son worked there as a contractor for about, probably 10 or 15 years. He worked for ABC. ABC used to do the broadcasting. My other son worked there as a contractor for several years, he worked for PCR, and then he was a NASA employee for about three years, and he resigned from there and he works for a company in Orlando, Florida. The one worked on the range, for the tracking of things, and he worked there for about 10 years; he doesn’t work there anymore.

[Assistant] When you first started, you mentioned that you were here and then had started college. Were you raised in this area?

[User] Oh, no, I was from New Mexico. I’m from Albuquerque.

[Assistant] Was your family here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, my one son worked there as a contractor for about, probably 10 or 15 years. He worked for ABC. ABC used to do the broadcasting. My other son worked there as a contractor for several years, he worked for PCR, and then he was a NASA employee for about three years, and he resigned from there and he works for a company in Orlando, Florida. The one worked on the range, for the tracking of things, and he worked there for about 10 years; he doesn’t work there anymore.

[Assistant] When you first started, you mentioned that you were here and then had started college. Were you raised in this area?

[User] Oh, no, I was from New Mexico. I’m from Albuquerque.

[Assistant] Was your family here?

[User] I had an uncle that had come out here to live, and I came to live with him and went to school. Graduated from AV [Antelope Valley] High [School] in Lancaster. Like I said, I was going to school on the GI Bill from my dad, and went to work at NACA.

[Assistant] I just thought it was interesting that both you and your husband were not from here but yet made your whole lives here. That’s pretty interesting. When you all got married, you lived here. Did you live in Lancaster or Palmdale?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, I was from New Mexico. I’m from Albuquerque.

[Assistant] Was your family here?

[User] I had an uncle that had come out here to live, and I came to live with him and went to school. Graduated from AV [Antelope Valley] High [School] in Lancaster. Like I said, I was going to school on the GI Bill from my dad, and went to work at NACA.

[Assistant] I just thought it was interesting that both you and your husband were not from here but yet made your whole lives here. That’s pretty interesting. When you all got married, you lived here. Did you live in Lancaster or Palmdale?

[User] Yes, we’ve lived in Lancaster the entire time. In fact, I’m in my house right now, I’ve been in it 43 years. I’m going to sell. My son lives with me, one son, and he has some medical issues, and when that’s over with we’ll go to Florida and I’ll be with my other son there in Pensacola, Gulf Breeze.\n\n Now, I’ll tell you another story about, more about my husband. My husband, when he passed away, had over 100 models, and the majority of them were ones that he had either flown in or worked on. Half of them I gave to the Air Force Museum out at Edwards, and the other half, that are Shuttle forward, will go to the museum in Fort Pickens, in Pensacola, as a donation. To be able to say, “I worked on that one, or I flew in that one”—because he used to fly in the back seat on some of the two-seaters, just to test their equipment to be sure that the equipment was working.

[Assistant] Some things, you said, that he couldn’t share with you, but did he share a lot when he came home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Personnel Director was a woman. When I worked at NACA/NASA, that Personnel Director was a man. No, there were a lot of women—I believe the EEO [Equal Employment Opportunity] officer was a female, I think the training officer was a female, in Human Resources, there were a couple while I was there in that three-year period, they were all females. In fact my last supervisor was a lady by the name of Susan Miller, and she runs the AERO [Aerospace, Education, Research, Operations] Institute here in Palmdale. I don’t know if you’ve met her. There were always females in the finance department, that part of it; there were females in the finance department later on, and probably an equal amount.

[Assistant] From what I understand, during that early time there were a number of female employees that were considered to be mathematicians.

[User] Oh, well, that was Betty [Scott Love].

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of interaction with her?

[User] I didn’t. Actually there were about three of them. There was Betty, there was a lady named Kay [Katherine H.] Armstead, and Roxanah [B.] Yancey. They were called the computers, and they did the downloads, the tapes would come in and they’d do the download. We knew them, we all knew them. Betty Love’s husband’s first wife was in the security office, but she was a secretary. I was trying to think who else. But yes, the computers, I think there were three or four of those ladies that did all the taping. That must’ve been an interesting job.

[Assistant] Sounds like it to me, the whole reading of the films and plotting it. A lot of math.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, that was Betty [Scott Love].

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of interaction with her?

[User] I didn’t. Actually there were about three of them. There was Betty, there was a lady named Kay [Katherine H.] Armstead, and Roxanah [B.] Yancey. They were called the computers, and they did the downloads, the tapes would come in and they’d do the download. We knew them, we all knew them. Betty Love’s husband’s first wife was in the security office, but she was a secretary. I was trying to think who else. But yes, the computers, I think there were three or four of those ladies that did all the taping. That must’ve been an interesting job.

[Assistant] Sounds like it to me, the whole reading of the films and plotting it. A lot of math.

[User] Too much math for me.

[Assistant] Me too. You said you worked with the Air Force. Were there a lot of differences that you found in the working environment between the two different agencies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, there were several people that came from Kennedy [Space Center, Florida] and from Houston [Johnson Space Center, Texas], both, that would come out on a regular basis and would see him. They used to have a trailer just outside of Dryden there where they kept the media passes. Now the Visitors Center is completely different than it used to be, and the cafeteria is no longer where it used to be.

[Assistant] Where was it when you started?

[User] When I first started, there used to be a long hallway that went all the way down, and then to the left was the cafeteria. The last time I was there I think it was a lot of little offices, completely, completely changed.

[Assistant] Did a lot of people gather in the cafeteria in those early days? Since there wasn’t that much around that you could just go out and get lunch.

[User] Like I said, we’d go in the cafeteria and get a sandwich or whatever, and then we’d go out and play Ping-Pong. There were other times, though, that they would bring the airplanes in the other hangar, and they’d be working out there. You could go out there and see stuff, but you didn’t know a lot about what was going on.

[Assistant] You mentioned that group WONASA. We’ve heard a couple of other ladies talk about it. How did that get started? Who started that? Was it the women employees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I first started, there used to be a long hallway that went all the way down, and then to the left was the cafeteria. The last time I was there I think it was a lot of little offices, completely, completely changed.

[Assistant] Did a lot of people gather in the cafeteria in those early days? Since there wasn’t that much around that you could just go out and get lunch.

[User] Like I said, we’d go in the cafeteria and get a sandwich or whatever, and then we’d go out and play Ping-Pong. There were other times, though, that they would bring the airplanes in the other hangar, and they’d be working out there. You could go out there and see stuff, but you didn’t know a lot about what was going on.

[Assistant] You mentioned that group WONASA. We’ve heard a couple of other ladies talk about it. How did that get started? Who started that? Was it the women employees?

[User] No, we were the women, the wives.

[Assistant] Okay, so the wives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like I said, we’d go in the cafeteria and get a sandwich or whatever, and then we’d go out and play Ping-Pong. There were other times, though, that they would bring the airplanes in the other hangar, and they’d be working out there. You could go out there and see stuff, but you didn’t know a lot about what was going on.

[Assistant] You mentioned that group WONASA. We’ve heard a couple of other ladies talk about it. How did that get started? Who started that? Was it the women employees?

[User] No, we were the women, the wives.

[Assistant] Okay, so the wives.

[User] Wives or employees. It was a combination of both. And you know, I think one of the first persons that started it was that Della Mae Bowling, her husband was the procurement officer.

[Assistant] What kind of activities did you all do as part of that group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were the women, the wives.

[Assistant] Okay, so the wives.

[User] Wives or employees. It was a combination of both. And you know, I think one of the first persons that started it was that Della Mae Bowling, her husband was the procurement officer.

[Assistant] What kind of activities did you all do as part of that group?

[User] Luncheons. We met, we had parties. I think we had Halloween parties. I think we had a WONASA Halloween party. We had a Christmas party; my husband was Santa Claus. Just trying to think what else. Christmas, Halloween, New Year’s. We had a New Year’s party. I don’t remember much else during that.

[Assistant] Was the purpose just for you all to have an opportunity to get together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wives or employees. It was a combination of both. And you know, I think one of the first persons that started it was that Della Mae Bowling, her husband was the procurement officer.

[Assistant] What kind of activities did you all do as part of that group?

[User] Luncheons. We met, we had parties. I think we had Halloween parties. I think we had a WONASA Halloween party. We had a Christmas party; my husband was Santa Claus. Just trying to think what else. Christmas, Halloween, New Year’s. We had a New Year’s party. I don’t remember much else during that.

[Assistant] Was the purpose just for you all to have an opportunity to get together?

[User] Get together. Breakfast or lunch, and it varied, and we went from different people’s houses, and then there were only a couple of restaurants that we went to.

[Assistant] I know some of the early astronauts came through here, and also when they were in Houston, the wives, after accidents the wives supported each other. Was that the same kind of thing happening here when these test pilots would have accidents and you knew the families and the wives. Did you, as a group, support each other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, my neighborhood is really bad, it’s really bad. It’s not safe anymore. We have a lot of activity late at night that we just don’t really care for. Luckily I have a five-pound terror Chihuahua.

[Assistant] An alarm, anyway.

[User] An alarm, and he makes a lot of noise.

[Assistant] I was also wondering, in your experience there, when you started Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the [Center] Director, and then as you went back different Directors, and then I’m sure your husband dealt with a lot of different Directors. Do you have any thoughts on any of the Directors or their style of management?

[User] One of the nicest Directors was John [A.] Manke. There was Isaac [T.] Gillam. Wonderful man, wonderful man. My husband really, really liked him. I liked him, I liked his family. Walt Williams was a little, if I remember, but I was only 19, 20, he was kind of standoffish to me. He wasn’t somebody that you would chitchat with or whatever. But Gillam was really nice, John Manke was nice. Ken [Kenneth J.] Szalai was there when I was there towards the end. I see him on a regular basis. He does a lot of the eulogies, he’s a very good speaker, an excellent speaker.\n\n Phil Walker was the Personnel Director, he was a little different. I tell a story about him. Every once in a while he’d get on a tangent about something, and I remember he came in and he said that somebody was stealing Scotch tape, and he pulled all of our documents on how much Scotch tape we had bought, and when they did a review he didn’t realize that the tape that they were using, that Betty Love and those people were using, was 3M, and it was the same tracking number on a procurement as Scotch tape. So nobody was stealing Scotch tape, but he had his information wrong.

[Assistant] Well, he was adamant.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] An alarm, and he makes a lot of noise.

[Assistant] I was also wondering, in your experience there, when you started Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the [Center] Director, and then as you went back different Directors, and then I’m sure your husband dealt with a lot of different Directors. Do you have any thoughts on any of the Directors or their style of management?

[User] One of the nicest Directors was John [A.] Manke. There was Isaac [T.] Gillam. Wonderful man, wonderful man. My husband really, really liked him. I liked him, I liked his family. Walt Williams was a little, if I remember, but I was only 19, 20, he was kind of standoffish to me. He wasn’t somebody that you would chitchat with or whatever. But Gillam was really nice, John Manke was nice. Ken [Kenneth J.] Szalai was there when I was there towards the end. I see him on a regular basis. He does a lot of the eulogies, he’s a very good speaker, an excellent speaker.\n\n Phil Walker was the Personnel Director, he was a little different. I tell a story about him. Every once in a while he’d get on a tangent about something, and I remember he came in and he said that somebody was stealing Scotch tape, and he pulled all of our documents on how much Scotch tape we had bought, and when they did a review he didn’t realize that the tape that they were using, that Betty Love and those people were using, was 3M, and it was the same tracking number on a procurement as Scotch tape. So nobody was stealing Scotch tape, but he had his information wrong.

[Assistant] Well, he was adamant.

[User] He was trying to be progressive.

[Assistant] That’s right. Trying to make sure things were working correctly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the nicest Directors was John [A.] Manke. There was Isaac [T.] Gillam. Wonderful man, wonderful man. My husband really, really liked him. I liked him, I liked his family. Walt Williams was a little, if I remember, but I was only 19, 20, he was kind of standoffish to me. He wasn’t somebody that you would chitchat with or whatever. But Gillam was really nice, John Manke was nice. Ken [Kenneth J.] Szalai was there when I was there towards the end. I see him on a regular basis. He does a lot of the eulogies, he’s a very good speaker, an excellent speaker.\n\n Phil Walker was the Personnel Director, he was a little different. I tell a story about him. Every once in a while he’d get on a tangent about something, and I remember he came in and he said that somebody was stealing Scotch tape, and he pulled all of our documents on how much Scotch tape we had bought, and when they did a review he didn’t realize that the tape that they were using, that Betty Love and those people were using, was 3M, and it was the same tracking number on a procurement as Scotch tape. So nobody was stealing Scotch tape, but he had his information wrong.

[Assistant] Well, he was adamant.

[User] He was trying to be progressive.

[Assistant] That’s right. Trying to make sure things were working correctly.

[User] If you stole a pencil, I don’t know that they tracked those, but yes, 3M tape, he got on a tangent about that.

[Assistant] I was thinking, too, I’m sure you saw a lot of landings out here, Shuttle landings. Did you ever get to see a launch, since you have a son in Florida?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was trying to be progressive.

[Assistant] That’s right. Trying to make sure things were working correctly.

[User] If you stole a pencil, I don’t know that they tracked those, but yes, 3M tape, he got on a tangent about that.

[Assistant] I was thinking, too, I’m sure you saw a lot of landings out here, Shuttle landings. Did you ever get to see a launch, since you have a son in Florida?

[User] Yes, I did. I saw a night launch. That was just awesome. It was so amazing, right before everything started, you come across the waterway and there’s all kinds of birds and things. Just before that thing went off—it gives me goosebumps—everything got quiet. The birds got quiet. Everything got quiet. And then that thing went off and it was just incredible. Just incredible. Everything shook. But the fact that the animals, the animals got quiet.

[Assistant] Like they could sense it was coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you stole a pencil, I don’t know that they tracked those, but yes, 3M tape, he got on a tangent about that.

[Assistant] I was thinking, too, I’m sure you saw a lot of landings out here, Shuttle landings. Did you ever get to see a launch, since you have a son in Florida?

[User] Yes, I did. I saw a night launch. That was just awesome. It was so amazing, right before everything started, you come across the waterway and there’s all kinds of birds and things. Just before that thing went off—it gives me goosebumps—everything got quiet. The birds got quiet. Everything got quiet. And then that thing went off and it was just incredible. Just incredible. Everything shook. But the fact that the animals, the animals got quiet.

[Assistant] Like they could sense it was coming.

[User] Well, they say they do. They say that they can predict earthquakes and things like that. But the fact that everything got so quiet, and then just to see it go up. We had good seats, too. We had wonderful seats.

[Assistant] Those launches are pretty impressive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. I saw a night launch. That was just awesome. It was so amazing, right before everything started, you come across the waterway and there’s all kinds of birds and things. Just before that thing went off—it gives me goosebumps—everything got quiet. The birds got quiet. Everything got quiet. And then that thing went off and it was just incredible. Just incredible. Everything shook. But the fact that the animals, the animals got quiet.

[Assistant] Like they could sense it was coming.

[User] Well, they say they do. They say that they can predict earthquakes and things like that. But the fact that everything got so quiet, and then just to see it go up. We had good seats, too. We had wonderful seats.

[Assistant] Those launches are pretty impressive.

[User] Have I chewed your leg off?

[Assistant] No, not at all. Are there any other areas that you can think of that you’d like to share, just about anything? I’m trying to think, too, I don’t know how long your husband was a protocol officer. Was he there during the time when [President Ronald] Reagan was there when that July Fourth [STS-4 landing]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have I chewed your leg off?

[Assistant] No, not at all. Are there any other areas that you can think of that you’d like to share, just about anything? I’m trying to think, too, I don’t know how long your husband was a protocol officer. Was he there during the time when [President Ronald] Reagan was there when that July Fourth [STS-4 landing]?

[User] Oh, yes. That one I can tell you about. In fact, well, I should have brought one but I didn’t think about it. The way Dryden was set up, Leonard Nimoy [TV/Movie actor] was over here. Leonard Nimoy was over here, [Barry] Goldwater, Jr. was there. The way NASA was set up, the airplane was here, and they had to get a carpet and carpet the airplane because the Reagan people said that he always appeared in front of a blue background. So they got a carpet and they brought the carpet in and they put it behind the airplane so that they’d have a good photo shot. The building right there is like this, and the whole building was marked with flags. There were flags all the way around.\n\n The reason there were flags there is because behind them were people with guns, and the dogs, because someone had tried to shoot Reagan when he was out on the [dry] lake bed. They caught a guy with a gun, so the reason those flags were there was to block the view. Nobody knew, but behind them were guns. Anyway, as they’re going to go ferry the Shuttle, the Shuttle comes like this, and Fitz Fulton and Tom McMurtry were in that airplane [Shuttle Carrier Aircraft]. The airplane is coming like this, and it dipped to Reagan, and there was a little boy standing in the crowd, and he says, “That’s my grandpa.” Somebody says, “No, no, it’s not,” and it was. Fitz Fulton’s grandson was down here. I saw that. That was incredible.

[Assistant] What an activity. You had a good view for that as well?

[User] Oh, wonderful view, wonderful view.

[Assistant] That’s a spectacular day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, wonderful view, wonderful view.

[Assistant] That’s a spectacular day.

[User] Oh, yes. They used to have a Visitors Center in Lancaster, it’s on Sierra Highway, and NASA had a center there, and people would go in and get their badges, and they had buses there. You would catch a bus and you’d go out and then sit either in the bleachers or wherever you had passes to go. I have a lot of that, but I packed it all up about six months ago and shipped it all to Florida, thinking I was going to move sooner than I have.

[Assistant] Well, it’s done. That’s the best part. Unless you can think of something else, I thank you for the visit.

[User] No, I can’t. How about you guys?

[Assistant] I think you’ve answered most of our questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So yes, it was really cool. At the end of astronaut candidate training, you’ve got to throw a party. We were the very first class to throw a party at Frenchie’s Villa Capri, and I’ll never forget that. That was a neat night, and we got our silver astronaut pins.

[Assistant] Am I correct in saying you also have to put on a skit at that party?

[User] Oh, we did all kinds of skits. Once you’re an AsCan, any time there’s entertainment—until there’s a new AsCan class—you’re in charge of the Christmas party. You’re in charge of everything. I’ll never forget. One of the skits we did—Brian Duffy and I and Linda [M.] Godwin and Tammy [Tamara E.] Jernigan—have you ever heard of a short man skit?

[Assistant] I don’t think so.

[User] Basically, what you do is—you’ve got a sheet with slits in it and a table, and you’re behind it. So you are through the slit in the sheet; your arms are the legs, and you’ve got shoes on [your hands]. You’re standing in front of this table, so you’re like this. [Demonstrates] You’re the feet, and then somebody behind you is the arms coming up through the hole. They can’t see you, and you can do all kinds of stuff. You can bring your feet up in the air.\n\n We did a couple of skits. One of them, we pretended we were George and somebody else. We had Hawaiian shirts on, and it was kind of crazy. One of them—it was two astronaut candidates going flying. We had flight suits, and we were doing all this crazy stuff in the airplane. They’re a hoot. If you’ve never seen one, Google “short man skits” or something, and something will come up.

[Assistant] All right. A lot of the mission specialists come in, and they haven’t flown before. Would you talk about training some of your classmates?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think [it was tough], especially on those folks that had a very close relationship [with the crew]. They were classmates in their astronaut classes. They were former crewmates. There was a significant feeling of loss, but I think—to a person—everybody was, “We need to get this right and get flying again.” There was a real desire to correct the problem, to get things right, to make the vehicle safer, and to get back to flying in space.

[Assistant] How did the Center leadership help boost morale? Or within the Agency, how was that achieved?

[User] Well, there were a lot of changes to leadership after Challenger. I think it was having a purpose, laying out a course, seeing what needed to get done, and focusing your resources to help make that happen. In the Astronaut Corps, we had great morale, because you’ve got a bunch of folks that are driven. We had a bunch of pranksters, too.\n\n I remember one of the things we did. We had a sock hop at Walter Hall Pavilion down in League City [Texas], before it burned down. It was awesome. Here’s this wood gymnasium floor and this outdoor pavilion. We had a cookout. We had barbeque. “Sonny” [Manley Lanier] Carter had his collection of 45s that was unreal, and he was the disc jockey. Bill [William M.] Shepherd and Mark [C.] Lee did the Blues Brothers. We had all kinds of skits. I think that’s when we did the skit where Duffy and I wore Hawaiian shirts, and we were pretending to be George and somebody else. I can’t remember the whole background, but it was just a fun evening. We were getting together, and we were doing stuff. We were a family, and we all just pulled together to get things done and move forward.

[Assistant] I have to ask: were you on Mr. Abbey’s softball team?

[User] I played second base. I don’t know if it was his softball team, but I was on the astronaut softball team.

[Assistant] Well, that probably was it. We hear about that one every once in a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were a lot of changes to leadership after Challenger. I think it was having a purpose, laying out a course, seeing what needed to get done, and focusing your resources to help make that happen. In the Astronaut Corps, we had great morale, because you’ve got a bunch of folks that are driven. We had a bunch of pranksters, too.\n\n I remember one of the things we did. We had a sock hop at Walter Hall Pavilion down in League City [Texas], before it burned down. It was awesome. Here’s this wood gymnasium floor and this outdoor pavilion. We had a cookout. We had barbeque. “Sonny” [Manley Lanier] Carter had his collection of 45s that was unreal, and he was the disc jockey. Bill [William M.] Shepherd and Mark [C.] Lee did the Blues Brothers. We had all kinds of skits. I think that’s when we did the skit where Duffy and I wore Hawaiian shirts, and we were pretending to be George and somebody else. I can’t remember the whole background, but it was just a fun evening. We were getting together, and we were doing stuff. We were a family, and we all just pulled together to get things done and move forward.

[Assistant] I have to ask: were you on Mr. Abbey’s softball team?

[User] I played second base. I don’t know if it was his softball team, but I was on the astronaut softball team.

[Assistant] Well, that probably was it. We hear about that one every once in a while.

[User] Yes, I was second baseman. Brian Duffy played ball at the Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado]. He was center fielder. Brian, he could cover some range out there. I was never a long ball hitter. Brian could put it over the fence, and I just went for base hits, but I was a good glove. That was a lot of fun, and I continued play softball for a long time.

[Assistant] Tell us about working at Aircraft Ops. I understand that’s one of the coveted positions within the office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I played second base. I don’t know if it was his softball team, but I was on the astronaut softball team.

[Assistant] Well, that probably was it. We hear about that one every once in a while.

[User] Yes, I was second baseman. Brian Duffy played ball at the Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado]. He was center fielder. Brian, he could cover some range out there. I was never a long ball hitter. Brian could put it over the fence, and I just went for base hits, but I was a good glove. That was a lot of fun, and I continued play softball for a long time.

[Assistant] Tell us about working at Aircraft Ops. I understand that’s one of the coveted positions within the office.

[User] Well, I don’t know if it’s coveted or not, but I really enjoyed it. I was the deputy chief. Joe took care of everything technical. If it had to do with people or facilities, then it was my problem. I got a number of facilities remodeled and upgraded while I was out there. I got to fly a lot. Got to hire some good people, and I really enjoyed my time while I was out there. I remember one time, I was down in the locker room, and I had been out there a long time. It was slow after the loss of Challenger, getting back to flying again. I was just thinking, “Dang, I came here to fly Space Shuttles, and here I am, doing stuff I did in the Marine Corps.”\n\n Joe Algranti, what a great guy. Interesting man, very smart, flew SBDs [dive-bombers] in the Navy, was a test pilot, flew in World War II—“Cabana, I’m going to tell you what I told Pete [Charles] Conrad when he had your job.” He basically said, “You just keep doing good like you’re doing. You’re going to fly before you know it.” And I did. It all worked out.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all in the discussions to purchase a new Shuttle Carrier Aircraft? Was that something you were working on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was something that—I wasn’t involved in the discussions—but that happened while I was there. I remember going through all the modifications and getting that aircraft. It was a Japanese 747, JAL 747SP. I remember when we worked all that, did the briefings and acquired it, and then had to do the modifications.

[Assistant] An interesting bird in itself.

[User] Yes, very much so. I know the folks at JSC are really disappointed there’s not a Shuttle here, but I think that display with the 747 and the mockup on top of it—they’ve done a great job upgrading the mockup to make it more flight-like. I think that is really cool in the way it’s being displayed here and utilized at Space Center Houston.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s quite a sight when you drive over the bridge.

[User] Yes, I think it’s awesome.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s cool.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, very much so. I know the folks at JSC are really disappointed there’s not a Shuttle here, but I think that display with the 747 and the mockup on top of it—they’ve done a great job upgrading the mockup to make it more flight-like. I think that is really cool in the way it’s being displayed here and utilized at Space Center Houston.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s quite a sight when you drive over the bridge.

[User] Yes, I think it’s awesome.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s cool.

[User] Unfortunately, every airplane and spaceship I’ve flown is on a pedestal somewhere. I go out to Ellington, and the KC-135 is sitting there on pedestals. They’ve got T-38s on pedestals. Even the F-18 I flew is on pedestals.

[Assistant] They’re just historic artifacts these days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it’s awesome.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s cool.

[User] Unfortunately, every airplane and spaceship I’ve flown is on a pedestal somewhere. I go out to Ellington, and the KC-135 is sitting there on pedestals. They’ve got T-38s on pedestals. Even the F-18 I flew is on pedestals.

[Assistant] They’re just historic artifacts these days.

[User] That’s okay. I’m not on a pedestal. That’s important. I’ve still got a few good years left. I’m not dead yet.

[Assistant] There you go. Your bio sheet also said that you were chief of Astronaut Appearances at one time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Unfortunately, every airplane and spaceship I’ve flown is on a pedestal somewhere. I go out to Ellington, and the KC-135 is sitting there on pedestals. They’ve got T-38s on pedestals. Even the F-18 I flew is on pedestals.

[Assistant] They’re just historic artifacts these days.

[User] That’s okay. I’m not on a pedestal. That’s important. I’ve still got a few good years left. I’m not dead yet.

[Assistant] There you go. Your bio sheet also said that you were chief of Astronaut Appearances at one time.

[User] Yes, that was one of my tacky little jobs—every astronaut had to go out [and give talks, and we had an astronaut in charge]. I’ll never forget John Young. When we completed our media training, John Young said—and I use this today. He says, “I don’t care what they tell you to come out and talk about. You just tell them what we want them to hear.” “Okay, John.” No, it was my responsibility. Every astronaut had to do two appearances a month. We had some guys in the office that that’s all they’d do, if you let them, and there were other guys that didn’t want to do any. So first off, it was my job to approve the appearances, whether it was something that was worth sending an astronaut to or not, and then it was to ensure that everybody was doing their fair share and not doing too many or not enough. So I did that for, I don’t know, six months or so.

[Assistant] Any odd requests that came through that you thought, “Unbelievable.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I loved it. What a great airplane. The first time I landed the Space Shuttle, I felt like I’d done it a thousand times before, and I had in the Shuttle Training Aircraft. I loved flying the STA, and we had so many great instructors and flight engineers. What a great team! When I left being chief of the Astronaut Office, the only person that had more dives in the STA than me was John Young. The three years that I was chief of the office, I never delegated. It was really bad. I did all the ascent and entry weather flights in the STA. You know, we scrub, and that’s okay. I stayed. I was living in Florida. For three years, I spent half of those in Florida. I’m convinced of it. I loved flying the STA; what an amazing vehicle.

[Assistant] Your family didn’t see much of you at that time, did they?

[User] Well, they did. Maybe not as much.

[Assistant] Did you travel to Europe or go out to California and learn more about the payload?

[User] Yes. For Ulysses, we went to ESA [European Space Agency] in Noordwijk, in the Netherlands. I think that’s the other neat thing about being an astronaut, yes, you’re assigned here, at the Johnson Space Center, but we’d go out to Edwards [Air Force Base, California] and fly the Shuttle Training Aircraft. We’d go out to Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], and we’d fly the vertical motion simulator out there. We’d go up to Huntsville [Marshall Space Flight Center, Alabama] and train on payloads up there. You got all over NASA to see everything and have relationship with folks at other Centers, and I think that was really good. So yes, on [STS]-41, got to go to Europe. That was for the reviews on Ulysses. And California, it was just flying the Shuttle Training Aircraft. I think we went out to JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena], too.

[Assistant] How much did you have to know about Ulysses as the pilot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew that there were 11 experiments onboard to study our Earth’s Sun from the polar regions, that when we launched it on that Inertial Upper Stage built by Boeing, it went out to Jupiter’s north pole. Jupiter[‘s gravity] flung it out of the ecliptic plane, back to the south pole of the Sun, and around the north pole of the Sun. It was supposed to last for one pass around the Sun, and it ended up lasting 18 years. And what was really cool—it was in a five-year orbit going out—the closest it ever got to the Sun was Earth, when we launched it. It went out to Jupiter and was in this five-year orbit around the Sun. What was cool was it ended up seeing the north and south pole of the Sun both at a solar minimum and a solar maximum, so that they could compare the data between the two, and then it continued to work for another 13 years beyond that. It studied the Sun’s magnetosphere—I can’t remember what all 11 experiments were, but a very successful experiment.\n\n As the pilot, I had to know about the Inertial Upper Stage, but my real job during the deploy—I was in the commander’s seat. I maneuvered the Space Shuttle to attitude for the deploy and made sure that we were in the right attitude, and I had my deploy checklist. Tom Akers was the one that actually deployed Ulysses, and he was back on payload station on the aft flight deck, moving all the switches to actually deploy the vehicle. Dick was overseeing the whole thing as the commander and making sure that we all did the right thing.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that deployment?

[User] I didn’t see a whole lot.

[Assistant] Not from the commander’s seat? Okay.

[User] Because I was sitting in the commander’s sit. Payload was out back in the payload bay, and I was in the commander’s seat, looking at our attitude and watching the Earth go by.

[Assistant] You were working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t see a whole lot.

[Assistant] Not from the commander’s seat? Okay.

[User] Because I was sitting in the commander’s sit. Payload was out back in the payload bay, and I was in the commander’s seat, looking at our attitude and watching the Earth go by.

[Assistant] You were working.

[User] I got to see the pictures afterwards, but I remember looking back in the payload bay, seeing the tilt table elevated for the deploy. When it deployed, I remember looking out and seeing it just go slowly past the aft windows, out the overhead windows, and off into its position. So then we did a burn after that, to move away from Ulysses when it did its ignition of its upper stage—[so] that we were out of the way.

[Assistant] One of the things I often like to ask people, just because everyone’s memories are different, is to talk about that day of launch, from the time that you wake up. I imagine that you’ve got so many memories until main engine cutoff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I remember, it was STS-53. We were the Dog Crew. That’s a whole other story. We had this dog mask, and Jim [James S.] Voss taped this thing. He had it in a locker with a flight jacket, and it looked like he was actually pulling a dog out of a locker with a flight jacket on. We put it in our crew movie, and afterwards, this lady came [up and told us], “I can’t believe you did that to a dog.” “Ma’am, ma’am, that wasn’t a real dog.”

[Assistant] You’re lucky PETA [People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals] didn’t call you.

[User] Those were the rats on my first flight. I was in charge of the rats, to make sure they were doing okay.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about that experiment?

[User] I’d open up the locker and pull it out, and it had Plexiglas so you could see if they were [alive and getting] food and water. By flight day four, I couldn’t even see the rats any more, hardly. It was covered with a mess. They’ve got better animal enclosure facilities now, I think. It worked.

[Assistant] Were there other experiments that you worked on for that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Those were the rats on my first flight. I was in charge of the rats, to make sure they were doing okay.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about that experiment?

[User] I’d open up the locker and pull it out, and it had Plexiglas so you could see if they were [alive and getting] food and water. By flight day four, I couldn’t even see the rats any more, hardly. It was covered with a mess. They’ve got better animal enclosure facilities now, I think. It worked.

[Assistant] Were there other experiments that you worked on for that mission?

[User] On 41? You know—jeez, I can’t remember. I just remember being in charge of the rats. The other thing that we did on 41 was the first space-basics educational movie. Bill Shepherd was our director. That’s another thing I’ll never forget. Bill was also a classmate of mine from the Naval Academy, and he had storyboarded the whole thing on the ground. He had this whole thing set up, and it really turned out to be a great video, if you’ve ever seen it.

[Assistant] I don’t think so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d open up the locker and pull it out, and it had Plexiglas so you could see if they were [alive and getting] food and water. By flight day four, I couldn’t even see the rats any more, hardly. It was covered with a mess. They’ve got better animal enclosure facilities now, I think. It worked.

[Assistant] Were there other experiments that you worked on for that mission?

[User] On 41? You know—jeez, I can’t remember. I just remember being in charge of the rats. The other thing that we did on 41 was the first space-basics educational movie. Bill Shepherd was our director. That’s another thing I’ll never forget. Bill was also a classmate of mine from the Naval Academy, and he had storyboarded the whole thing on the ground. He had this whole thing set up, and it really turned out to be a great video, if you’ve ever seen it.

[Assistant] I don’t think so.

[User] It’s awesome. I will never forget—we’re doing takes. We filmed some of it on the ground. We filmed some of it on orbit, and Bill has got the camera. He’s going through it. And the only thing I remember is, “That was really good, but,” and we’d tape it again. He got enough good takes on all the things that we did to pull together a good movie.

[Assistant] Did you face any challenges on that first mission, or do you think you were prepared really well because of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On 41? You know—jeez, I can’t remember. I just remember being in charge of the rats. The other thing that we did on 41 was the first space-basics educational movie. Bill Shepherd was our director. That’s another thing I’ll never forget. Bill was also a classmate of mine from the Naval Academy, and he had storyboarded the whole thing on the ground. He had this whole thing set up, and it really turned out to be a great video, if you’ve ever seen it.

[Assistant] I don’t think so.

[User] It’s awesome. I will never forget—we’re doing takes. We filmed some of it on the ground. We filmed some of it on orbit, and Bill has got the camera. He’s going through it. And the only thing I remember is, “That was really good, but,” and we’d tape it again. He got enough good takes on all the things that we did to pull together a good movie.

[Assistant] Did you face any challenges on that first mission, or do you think you were prepared really well because of training?

[User] Oh no, we were prepared. We were very well prepared, and I can’t think of anything that happened that was so off-nominal that it was a concern.

[Assistant] Talk about that landing. You said you wouldn’t even forget that first launch. What about landing—same way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s awesome. I will never forget—we’re doing takes. We filmed some of it on the ground. We filmed some of it on orbit, and Bill has got the camera. He’s going through it. And the only thing I remember is, “That was really good, but,” and we’d tape it again. He got enough good takes on all the things that we did to pull together a good movie.

[Assistant] Did you face any challenges on that first mission, or do you think you were prepared really well because of training?

[User] Oh no, we were prepared. We were very well prepared, and I can’t think of anything that happened that was so off-nominal that it was a concern.

[Assistant] Talk about that landing. You said you wouldn’t even forget that first launch. What about landing—same way?

[User] Well, landing was okay. Dick got to land it. I was just the pilot. All I had to do was lower the landing gear. Arm the gear. Push this button at 400 feet. That’s very important. I got the landing gear down twice, so they let me be the commander on my third flight. If you don’t get the landing gear down, that’s career limiting. You’re probably not going to get to command. So I got the landing gear down twice.

[Assistant] Usually, after your first flight, you have a bunch of PRs [Public Relations], and you go to your hometown.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, we were prepared. We were very well prepared, and I can’t think of anything that happened that was so off-nominal that it was a concern.

[Assistant] Talk about that landing. You said you wouldn’t even forget that first launch. What about landing—same way?

[User] Well, landing was okay. Dick got to land it. I was just the pilot. All I had to do was lower the landing gear. Arm the gear. Push this button at 400 feet. That’s very important. I got the landing gear down twice, so they let me be the commander on my third flight. If you don’t get the landing gear down, that’s career limiting. You’re probably not going to get to command. So I got the landing gear down twice.

[Assistant] Usually, after your first flight, you have a bunch of PRs [Public Relations], and you go to your hometown.

[User] Yes, it was awesome. I’ll never forget this, too. You can’t win. So you’re going out and giving these talks, right? Once you become an astronaut candidate and get through your media training, you’re an astronaut, but you’ve never flown in space. They bless you to go out and give all these talks. So you’re out giving talks about the space program, and first [question], “Have you flown in space?” “Well, no, I haven’t gotten to fly yet.” “Oh, okay.” So this is it. I’ve flown in space. “Have you flown in space?” “Yes, I have flown in space.” “Well, how many times?” “Well, just once.” So then you go out, and you’ve flown two or three times. “Have you flown?” “Yes, I’ve flown in space three times.” “Well, have you been to the Moon?” “No.” You can’t win. You just can’t win.

[Assistant] I don’t know. I’m pretty impressed. I did hear that, I think, when we went to a Sally [K.] Ride Science event, and someone asked that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was awesome. I’ll never forget this, too. You can’t win. So you’re going out and giving these talks, right? Once you become an astronaut candidate and get through your media training, you’re an astronaut, but you’ve never flown in space. They bless you to go out and give all these talks. So you’re out giving talks about the space program, and first [question], “Have you flown in space?” “Well, no, I haven’t gotten to fly yet.” “Oh, okay.” So this is it. I’ve flown in space. “Have you flown in space?” “Yes, I have flown in space.” “Well, how many times?” “Well, just once.” So then you go out, and you’ve flown two or three times. “Have you flown?” “Yes, I’ve flown in space three times.” “Well, have you been to the Moon?” “No.” You can’t win. You just can’t win.

[Assistant] I don’t know. I’m pretty impressed. I did hear that, I think, when we went to a Sally [K.] Ride Science event, and someone asked that.

[User] It’s one more. “Well, have you been to the Moon? Well, have you been to Mars?” I’d go though. I’m volunteering, because I’m physically fit. I can pass the physical. I’m old enough that the radiation doesn’t matter a bit, and I’ll do anything to get out of going to any more meetings. If I had two years on Mars on a Martian mission, that’s okay.

[Assistant] Would you volunteer for Mars One?

[User] No. That’s dumb. A one-way trip to Mars, no. We’re going to do it right. We’re going to send folks to Mars and bring them home. Have you read the book The Martian?

[Assistant] I did, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s one more. “Well, have you been to the Moon? Well, have you been to Mars?” I’d go though. I’m volunteering, because I’m physically fit. I can pass the physical. I’m old enough that the radiation doesn’t matter a bit, and I’ll do anything to get out of going to any more meetings. If I had two years on Mars on a Martian mission, that’s okay.

[Assistant] Would you volunteer for Mars One?

[User] No. That’s dumb. A one-way trip to Mars, no. We’re going to do it right. We’re going to send folks to Mars and bring them home. Have you read the book The Martian?

[Assistant] I did, yes.

[User] It’s awesome. You’ve got to read it.

[Assistant] It’s really good, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That’s dumb. A one-way trip to Mars, no. We’re going to do it right. We’re going to send folks to Mars and bring them home. Have you read the book The Martian?

[Assistant] I did, yes.

[User] It’s awesome. You’ve got to read it.

[Assistant] It’s really good, yes.

[User] It’s Robinson Crusoe on Mars. It’s very well done. Andy Weir did a great job researching it. He took a little license with the storm that set up the whole thing, but everything in it is very plausible. Very, very well done story. That’s what exploring is about. We need to be able to do that.

[Assistant] Yes, I think it’s a reading list requirement by [Center Director] Ellen [Ochoa]. It’s being stocked now, actually, at the Gilruth. You can pick it up when you’re at the gym.