[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he lived with his extended family, their homesteaded was nearby me. And I actually knew his older, um, cousins. They were in some of my classes.

[Assistant] Oh. Because I was wondering, how did he know you?

[User] Right. His older cousins were in my classes and I got I became friends with them. I was friends with them initially. But eventually I became kind of closer friends with Matjayi. And it was just it's hard to describe because we can't really communicate. But there was a connection. And so he kept coming around. We kept hanging out and it was just a friendship. And I think that in some way we were kind of fulfilling different needs for each other. I missed my friends and family back home, which included about ten nieces and nephews, which I had always been, you know, the uncle to them. So I really missed them. And so he kind of filled that role for me of having a younger person to kind of be a role model to. And then to me, you know, I guess I imagine in some way I filled that space of his missing parents.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's a special story.

[User] Yeah, and that that so my connection with him really helped to get me out to the community because he would invite me over to his home safe food and to meet his family. And then we'd go walk down by the river, so we just through our relationship, I could then get out into the community and walk around and meet people. And then people started to make comments like, oh, Matjayi, he’s Cedar’s small boy, he’s Cedar’s son, you know, things like that.

[Assistant] Cedar’s small boy, which was OK. You've already told me that. He’s Cedar’s small boy, aww. OK, listener, I'm jumping way ahead. This is not on the interview questions. Will you be seeing him on this trip? You still keep in touch with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and that that so my connection with him really helped to get me out to the community because he would invite me over to his home safe food and to meet his family. And then we'd go walk down by the river, so we just through our relationship, I could then get out into the community and walk around and meet people. And then people started to make comments like, oh, Matjayi, he’s Cedar’s small boy, he’s Cedar’s son, you know, things like that.

[Assistant] Cedar’s small boy, which was OK. You've already told me that. He’s Cedar’s small boy, aww. OK, listener, I'm jumping way ahead. This is not on the interview questions. Will you be seeing him on this trip? You still keep in touch with him?

[User] Actually I went back last year, it was my first time going back to Namibia in about eight years, nine years. And I had no idea if I was going to meet him. When I left Namibia, one of the final moments that I had was saying goodbye to Matjayi. And I remember we hugged each other and he told me that he doesn't know if anyone would ever love him the way that I loved him.

[Assistant] Oh, you're like a big brother or something to him, or maybe his daddy.

[User] Yeah. He was he was really attached. It's a long story but I actually stayed in Namibia for a third year and I moved into Rundu town and he would come and just kind of show up at the door, looking for me.

[Assistant] Is he like a senior in high school maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually I went back last year, it was my first time going back to Namibia in about eight years, nine years. And I had no idea if I was going to meet him. When I left Namibia, one of the final moments that I had was saying goodbye to Matjayi. And I remember we hugged each other and he told me that he doesn't know if anyone would ever love him the way that I loved him.

[Assistant] Oh, you're like a big brother or something to him, or maybe his daddy.

[User] Yeah. He was he was really attached. It's a long story but I actually stayed in Namibia for a third year and I moved into Rundu town and he would come and just kind of show up at the door, looking for me.

[Assistant] Is he like a senior in high school maybe?

[User] Now he's a young man.

[Assistant] Was he a high school student?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. He was he was really attached. It's a long story but I actually stayed in Namibia for a third year and I moved into Rundu town and he would come and just kind of show up at the door, looking for me.

[Assistant] Is he like a senior in high school maybe?

[User] Now he's a young man.

[Assistant] Was he a high school student?

[User] Uh yeah, he’d be like late teens and early 20s, I think he's still in school now. Oh, but I went back in December last year. I had no communication with Matjayi ever since that final day when I left back in 2009. Oh, I didn't know if he’s still in Rundu, Kanbango, or, you know, still alive. I had no clue. Nothing, no connection. And just dates that be. I went back last year and somebody saw me. They said, sir, do you want to see Matjayi? Just some random person, you know, and they had his number. They connected me. I connected with Matjayi and we went out and we had a reunion. And there's like two days where I finally connected with him and we only hang out.

[Assistant] Does he still live with that extended family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now he's a young man.

[Assistant] Was he a high school student?

[User] Uh yeah, he’d be like late teens and early 20s, I think he's still in school now. Oh, but I went back in December last year. I had no communication with Matjayi ever since that final day when I left back in 2009. Oh, I didn't know if he’s still in Rundu, Kanbango, or, you know, still alive. I had no clue. Nothing, no connection. And just dates that be. I went back last year and somebody saw me. They said, sir, do you want to see Matjayi? Just some random person, you know, and they had his number. They connected me. I connected with Matjayi and we went out and we had a reunion. And there's like two days where I finally connected with him and we only hang out.

[Assistant] Does he still live with that extended family?

[User] Yeah. We went and visited the homestead, saw all the family and that was really great. They all remembered me, we had a nice little moment but everyone just getting excited and dancing around.

[Assistant] That's special. This is off-track, but have you ever thought about being a Big Brother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh yeah, he’d be like late teens and early 20s, I think he's still in school now. Oh, but I went back in December last year. I had no communication with Matjayi ever since that final day when I left back in 2009. Oh, I didn't know if he’s still in Rundu, Kanbango, or, you know, still alive. I had no clue. Nothing, no connection. And just dates that be. I went back last year and somebody saw me. They said, sir, do you want to see Matjayi? Just some random person, you know, and they had his number. They connected me. I connected with Matjayi and we went out and we had a reunion. And there's like two days where I finally connected with him and we only hang out.

[Assistant] Does he still live with that extended family?

[User] Yeah. We went and visited the homestead, saw all the family and that was really great. They all remembered me, we had a nice little moment but everyone just getting excited and dancing around.

[Assistant] That's special. This is off-track, but have you ever thought about being a Big Brother?

[User] Yeah. In some ways I, you know, I kind of am already. Like I said, I've got so many nieces and nephews that I feel like I have my hands full being a mentor to all of them.

[Assistant] It just because that reminds me of that. My husband and I were friends with Denver kids for years. It's like a mentoring program. Anyway, lovely story. Thank you for sharing that. Anything else you might want to add? Health problems? Where did you go on vacation? Did you go any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We went and visited the homestead, saw all the family and that was really great. They all remembered me, we had a nice little moment but everyone just getting excited and dancing around.

[Assistant] That's special. This is off-track, but have you ever thought about being a Big Brother?

[User] Yeah. In some ways I, you know, I kind of am already. Like I said, I've got so many nieces and nephews that I feel like I have my hands full being a mentor to all of them.

[Assistant] It just because that reminds me of that. My husband and I were friends with Denver kids for years. It's like a mentoring program. Anyway, lovely story. Thank you for sharing that. Anything else you might want to add? Health problems? Where did you go on vacation? Did you go any travel?

[User] I never had any major health problems. I kept pretty thin, pretty healthy for most of my Peace Corps service. I did go on some really interesting holidays. My girlfriend at the time, I traveled up to Malawi one time over Christmas break and we passed through Zambia and I ran into a friend of mine from college who had joined the Peace Corps after me and then gone to Zambia.

[Assistant] Oh, really? You didn't know that he or she was in Zambia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In some ways I, you know, I kind of am already. Like I said, I've got so many nieces and nephews that I feel like I have my hands full being a mentor to all of them.

[Assistant] It just because that reminds me of that. My husband and I were friends with Denver kids for years. It's like a mentoring program. Anyway, lovely story. Thank you for sharing that. Anything else you might want to add? Health problems? Where did you go on vacation? Did you go any travel?

[User] I never had any major health problems. I kept pretty thin, pretty healthy for most of my Peace Corps service. I did go on some really interesting holidays. My girlfriend at the time, I traveled up to Malawi one time over Christmas break and we passed through Zambia and I ran into a friend of mine from college who had joined the Peace Corps after me and then gone to Zambia.

[Assistant] Oh, really? You didn't know that he or she was in Zambia?

[User] Yeah, she came afterward. And then I just I forget how I found out, but we connected and then we met up with her and then we all together we traveled up from Zambia and then up into Malawi and had a really good time. It had a little bit of a crazy turn and that one of the people in our group got really sick. And there's a swimming accident actually that happened too. And anyway, we ended up spending Christmas at this Peace Corps house after a friend just got out of hospital. She came down, we think, malaria or some form of it. That was a crazy, intense trip, just traveling across country, you know, Namibia to Zambia, to Malawi through all forms of transportation.

[Assistant] Would it be by bus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never had any major health problems. I kept pretty thin, pretty healthy for most of my Peace Corps service. I did go on some really interesting holidays. My girlfriend at the time, I traveled up to Malawi one time over Christmas break and we passed through Zambia and I ran into a friend of mine from college who had joined the Peace Corps after me and then gone to Zambia.

[Assistant] Oh, really? You didn't know that he or she was in Zambia?

[User] Yeah, she came afterward. And then I just I forget how I found out, but we connected and then we met up with her and then we all together we traveled up from Zambia and then up into Malawi and had a really good time. It had a little bit of a crazy turn and that one of the people in our group got really sick. And there's a swimming accident actually that happened too. And anyway, we ended up spending Christmas at this Peace Corps house after a friend just got out of hospital. She came down, we think, malaria or some form of it. That was a crazy, intense trip, just traveling across country, you know, Namibia to Zambia, to Malawi through all forms of transportation.

[Assistant] Would it be by bus?

[User] Yeah, we took bus, taxis, cars breaking down, you know, hitchhiking, you know, all just kinds of ridiculousness.

[Assistant] You know, to really ask about health problems in general. But because I'm a retired nurse, what were some of the health problems that people might succumb to in Namibia or in your area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, she came afterward. And then I just I forget how I found out, but we connected and then we met up with her and then we all together we traveled up from Zambia and then up into Malawi and had a really good time. It had a little bit of a crazy turn and that one of the people in our group got really sick. And there's a swimming accident actually that happened too. And anyway, we ended up spending Christmas at this Peace Corps house after a friend just got out of hospital. She came down, we think, malaria or some form of it. That was a crazy, intense trip, just traveling across country, you know, Namibia to Zambia, to Malawi through all forms of transportation.

[Assistant] Would it be by bus?

[User] Yeah, we took bus, taxis, cars breaking down, you know, hitchhiking, you know, all just kinds of ridiculousness.

[Assistant] You know, to really ask about health problems in general. But because I'm a retired nurse, what were some of the health problems that people might succumb to in Namibia or in your area?

[User] There was up in the northern part of Namibia in the Kavango region, there's the Okavango River, which passes across the border, maybe Angola. And people would swim in the river. There's a lot of, you know, defecation on the banks. And so when the rains come and the river banks would flood over, then, of course, all that defecation gets in the water. And so if you walk down there barefoot, you'll get schistosomiasis, you know, critters, they'll crawl into your feet.

[Assistant] I could guess, but do you know how to spell it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we took bus, taxis, cars breaking down, you know, hitchhiking, you know, all just kinds of ridiculousness.

[Assistant] You know, to really ask about health problems in general. But because I'm a retired nurse, what were some of the health problems that people might succumb to in Namibia or in your area?

[User] There was up in the northern part of Namibia in the Kavango region, there's the Okavango River, which passes across the border, maybe Angola. And people would swim in the river. There's a lot of, you know, defecation on the banks. And so when the rains come and the river banks would flood over, then, of course, all that defecation gets in the water. And so if you walk down there barefoot, you'll get schistosomiasis, you know, critters, they'll crawl into your feet.

[Assistant] I could guess, but do you know how to spell it?

[User] Schistosomiasis, S-C-H-I-S-T-O-S-O-M-I-A-S-I-S. We called it schisto for short. S-H-I-S-T-O, Shisto. Somiasis, S-O-M-I- A-S-I-S. I won the spelling bee in third grade you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, I didn't know that but thanks for telling me. And what was the name of the river?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was up in the northern part of Namibia in the Kavango region, there's the Okavango River, which passes across the border, maybe Angola. And people would swim in the river. There's a lot of, you know, defecation on the banks. And so when the rains come and the river banks would flood over, then, of course, all that defecation gets in the water. And so if you walk down there barefoot, you'll get schistosomiasis, you know, critters, they'll crawl into your feet.

[Assistant] I could guess, but do you know how to spell it?

[User] Schistosomiasis, S-C-H-I-S-T-O-S-O-M-I-A-S-I-S. We called it schisto for short. S-H-I-S-T-O, Shisto. Somiasis, S-O-M-I- A-S-I-S. I won the spelling bee in third grade you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, I didn't know that but thanks for telling me. And what was the name of the river?

[User] Okavango River.

[Assistant] Spell that again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Schistosomiasis, S-C-H-I-S-T-O-S-O-M-I-A-S-I-S. We called it schisto for short. S-H-I-S-T-O, Shisto. Somiasis, S-O-M-I- A-S-I-S. I won the spelling bee in third grade you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, I didn't know that but thanks for telling me. And what was the name of the river?

[User] Okavango River.

[Assistant] Spell that again.

[User] O-K-A-V-A.

[Assistant] Wait. I had a senior moment. Sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okavango River.

[Assistant] Spell that again.

[User] O-K-A-V-A.

[Assistant] Wait. I had a senior moment. Sorry.

[User] O-K-A-V-A-N-G-O. Oh that's really interesting because the region is called the Kavango region, but then the dominant tribe in Namibia is the Oshiwambo and they put Os in front of everything. So, the river is actually called Okavango. I don't know why, but it's interesting. You know, the Kavango region has the Okavango River.

[Assistant] Besides schistosomiasis, I would guess giardia or just things like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] O-K-A-V-A.

[Assistant] Wait. I had a senior moment. Sorry.

[User] O-K-A-V-A-N-G-O. Oh that's really interesting because the region is called the Kavango region, but then the dominant tribe in Namibia is the Oshiwambo and they put Os in front of everything. So, the river is actually called Okavango. I don't know why, but it's interesting. You know, the Kavango region has the Okavango River.

[Assistant] Besides schistosomiasis, I would guess giardia or just things like that.

[User] Malaria. A good friend of mine got malaria, Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Any other health conditions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] O-K-A-V-A-N-G-O. Oh that's really interesting because the region is called the Kavango region, but then the dominant tribe in Namibia is the Oshiwambo and they put Os in front of everything. So, the river is actually called Okavango. I don't know why, but it's interesting. You know, the Kavango region has the Okavango River.

[Assistant] Besides schistosomiasis, I would guess giardia or just things like that.

[User] Malaria. A good friend of mine got malaria, Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Any other health conditions?

[User] Well, for the people, HIV AIDS was a big problem.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm not glad that it's there. I'm glad you said that. You know what that rate would be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Malaria. A good friend of mine got malaria, Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Any other health conditions?

[User] Well, for the people, HIV AIDS was a big problem.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm not glad that it's there. I'm glad you said that. You know what that rate would be?

[User] Twenty percent.

[Assistant] Of the population were HIV positive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for the people, HIV AIDS was a big problem.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm not glad that it's there. I'm glad you said that. You know what that rate would be?

[User] Twenty percent.

[Assistant] Of the population were HIV positive?

[User] It’s a pretty high rate for the region, for southern Africa in general.

[Assistant] OK. Maybe we’ll move on to question ten. We’re on page two of the interview. End of tour. Oh, before we get to that, anything you might want to add before we get to end of tour? Anything I might not have asked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty percent.

[Assistant] Of the population were HIV positive?

[User] It’s a pretty high rate for the region, for southern Africa in general.

[Assistant] OK. Maybe we’ll move on to question ten. We’re on page two of the interview. End of tour. Oh, before we get to that, anything you might want to add before we get to end of tour? Anything I might not have asked?

[User] Um, I don't think so. Yeah, I see some of these other questions will cover what I want to.

[Assistant] OK. So then, end of tour question. What was your sense of achievement or failure, pluses and minuses, in your relations or with the work. Anything like that, regrets, satisfactions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a pretty high rate for the region, for southern Africa in general.

[Assistant] OK. Maybe we’ll move on to question ten. We’re on page two of the interview. End of tour. Oh, before we get to that, anything you might want to add before we get to end of tour? Anything I might not have asked?

[User] Um, I don't think so. Yeah, I see some of these other questions will cover what I want to.

[Assistant] OK. So then, end of tour question. What was your sense of achievement or failure, pluses and minuses, in your relations or with the work. Anything like that, regrets, satisfactions?

[User] Yeah, see, the first year I remember I spent a lot of time outside Nahudj working on other Peace Corps projects like leadership camps, traveling a lot. And this actually came up with my principal. She says she's a little bit concerned about spending so much time away from the community.

[Assistant] Oh, did Peace Corps ask you to do these projects or you discovered them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't think so. Yeah, I see some of these other questions will cover what I want to.

[Assistant] OK. So then, end of tour question. What was your sense of achievement or failure, pluses and minuses, in your relations or with the work. Anything like that, regrets, satisfactions?

[User] Yeah, see, the first year I remember I spent a lot of time outside Nahudj working on other Peace Corps projects like leadership camps, traveling a lot. And this actually came up with my principal. She says she's a little bit concerned about spending so much time away from the community.

[Assistant] Oh, did Peace Corps ask you to do these projects or you discovered them?

[User] And it's just like that, you know, Peace Corps committees will form, you know, there's like Camp GLOW, there's the diversity tour. There's different things where, you know, you can volunteer to get involved in them. And that's what I did. And but it was taking me out of the village a lot.

[Assistant] But you are teaching I'm guessing. You did show up for class.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, see, the first year I remember I spent a lot of time outside Nahudj working on other Peace Corps projects like leadership camps, traveling a lot. And this actually came up with my principal. She says she's a little bit concerned about spending so much time away from the community.

[Assistant] Oh, did Peace Corps ask you to do these projects or you discovered them?

[User] And it's just like that, you know, Peace Corps committees will form, you know, there's like Camp GLOW, there's the diversity tour. There's different things where, you know, you can volunteer to get involved in them. And that's what I did. And but it was taking me out of the village a lot.

[Assistant] But you are teaching I'm guessing. You did show up for class.

[User] So I would, you know, leave lesson plans for people to do. Hopefully they would do them.

[Assistant] Oh, you weren't even going to class sometimes. That's my question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's just like that, you know, Peace Corps committees will form, you know, there's like Camp GLOW, there's the diversity tour. There's different things where, you know, you can volunteer to get involved in them. And that's what I did. And but it was taking me out of the village a lot.

[Assistant] But you are teaching I'm guessing. You did show up for class.

[User] So I would, you know, leave lesson plans for people to do. Hopefully they would do them.

[Assistant] Oh, you weren't even going to class sometimes. That's my question.

[User] Well this is part of the, you know, sense of achievement slash failures. The first year I felt like I was away from my community and neglecting them. So then my second year, I decided I wanted to change things. And so I focused a lot more on my teaching, on my class, on staying in the village. And people noticed and the other Peace Corps volunteers noticed too.

[Assistant] Oh, were you the only volunteer in town? I’ve been meaning to ask you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I would, you know, leave lesson plans for people to do. Hopefully they would do them.

[Assistant] Oh, you weren't even going to class sometimes. That's my question.

[User] Well this is part of the, you know, sense of achievement slash failures. The first year I felt like I was away from my community and neglecting them. So then my second year, I decided I wanted to change things. And so I focused a lot more on my teaching, on my class, on staying in the village. And people noticed and the other Peace Corps volunteers noticed too.

[Assistant] Oh, were you the only volunteer in town? I’ve been meaning to ask you.

[User] Yes. There had been a volunteer there before me. And then one came after me. So I wasn't the first or the last. And so then that second year, I wouldn’t say that I made any astounding accomplishments in terms of my student passing rate or anything like that, at least nothing that I really noticed or tracked. But in terms of just a general sense of feeling like I was connected with my community, it really changed their second year.

[Assistant] Mainly because of your principal maybe saying something to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well this is part of the, you know, sense of achievement slash failures. The first year I felt like I was away from my community and neglecting them. So then my second year, I decided I wanted to change things. And so I focused a lot more on my teaching, on my class, on staying in the village. And people noticed and the other Peace Corps volunteers noticed too.

[Assistant] Oh, were you the only volunteer in town? I’ve been meaning to ask you.

[User] Yes. There had been a volunteer there before me. And then one came after me. So I wasn't the first or the last. And so then that second year, I wouldn’t say that I made any astounding accomplishments in terms of my student passing rate or anything like that, at least nothing that I really noticed or tracked. But in terms of just a general sense of feeling like I was connected with my community, it really changed their second year.

[Assistant] Mainly because of your principal maybe saying something to you?

[User] Yeah, well, she voiced the concern and also I just felt not really connected to my community. And so then that second year, just really, you know, spending a lot more time in the village, I got to know, I just felt a better relationship with everyone, and one of which was my roommate, Veikko. I mentioned before I felt like he was kind of a playboy at the beginning. I didn't really have a strong relationship with him, you know, I wouldn't to really try to connect with him that first year. The second year, by the time I left, we were calling each other brother. We because we just kind of grown to know each other much more. And so, I’d say my biggest accomplishments as a Peace Corps volunteer weren't really the results that I had attained in my teaching outcomes, but they were in the connections and the relationships I made with the students and the other teachers. And when I say probably more so, but my students, because, you know, teaching is such an interesting thing, you don't see the results of your work right away.

[Assistant] Yes. I have been married to a teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There had been a volunteer there before me. And then one came after me. So I wasn't the first or the last. And so then that second year, I wouldn’t say that I made any astounding accomplishments in terms of my student passing rate or anything like that, at least nothing that I really noticed or tracked. But in terms of just a general sense of feeling like I was connected with my community, it really changed their second year.

[Assistant] Mainly because of your principal maybe saying something to you?

[User] Yeah, well, she voiced the concern and also I just felt not really connected to my community. And so then that second year, just really, you know, spending a lot more time in the village, I got to know, I just felt a better relationship with everyone, and one of which was my roommate, Veikko. I mentioned before I felt like he was kind of a playboy at the beginning. I didn't really have a strong relationship with him, you know, I wouldn't to really try to connect with him that first year. The second year, by the time I left, we were calling each other brother. We because we just kind of grown to know each other much more. And so, I’d say my biggest accomplishments as a Peace Corps volunteer weren't really the results that I had attained in my teaching outcomes, but they were in the connections and the relationships I made with the students and the other teachers. And when I say probably more so, but my students, because, you know, teaching is such an interesting thing, you don't see the results of your work right away.

[Assistant] Yes. I have been married to a teacher.

[User] Yeah. It's only years later when a student comes back and says, hey, you know what, you really made a difference in my life. And I've done that to teachers in my past. And I've gone back and told them that they really mattered to me. And that's happened to me also. I had students, you know, ten years after Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, anything else with that before we go to 11?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, she voiced the concern and also I just felt not really connected to my community. And so then that second year, just really, you know, spending a lot more time in the village, I got to know, I just felt a better relationship with everyone, and one of which was my roommate, Veikko. I mentioned before I felt like he was kind of a playboy at the beginning. I didn't really have a strong relationship with him, you know, I wouldn't to really try to connect with him that first year. The second year, by the time I left, we were calling each other brother. We because we just kind of grown to know each other much more. And so, I’d say my biggest accomplishments as a Peace Corps volunteer weren't really the results that I had attained in my teaching outcomes, but they were in the connections and the relationships I made with the students and the other teachers. And when I say probably more so, but my students, because, you know, teaching is such an interesting thing, you don't see the results of your work right away.

[Assistant] Yes. I have been married to a teacher.

[User] Yeah. It's only years later when a student comes back and says, hey, you know what, you really made a difference in my life. And I've done that to teachers in my past. And I've gone back and told them that they really mattered to me. And that's happened to me also. I had students, you know, ten years after Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, anything else with that before we go to 11?

[User] Um, that was the main thing. I did a lot of multimedia work, which is really fun. I mean, I did some kind of Peace Corps documentaries where I traveled around the country and I interviewed volunteers and turn that into.

[Assistant] That's what we're kind of doing now. I see you in a different way. But for the listener, this interview is going to be forwarded to the JFK Library.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It's only years later when a student comes back and says, hey, you know what, you really made a difference in my life. And I've done that to teachers in my past. And I've gone back and told them that they really mattered to me. And that's happened to me also. I had students, you know, ten years after Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, anything else with that before we go to 11?

[User] Um, that was the main thing. I did a lot of multimedia work, which is really fun. I mean, I did some kind of Peace Corps documentaries where I traveled around the country and I interviewed volunteers and turn that into.

[Assistant] That's what we're kind of doing now. I see you in a different way. But for the listener, this interview is going to be forwarded to the JFK Library.

[User] But yeah, I was interviewing volunteers way back in 2006, 2007 for a video project and I used that. I put that together as a kind of a training video for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Let me interrupt you of sorts. Did you choose to do it or the Peace Corps asked you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, that was the main thing. I did a lot of multimedia work, which is really fun. I mean, I did some kind of Peace Corps documentaries where I traveled around the country and I interviewed volunteers and turn that into.

[Assistant] That's what we're kind of doing now. I see you in a different way. But for the listener, this interview is going to be forwarded to the JFK Library.

[User] But yeah, I was interviewing volunteers way back in 2006, 2007 for a video project and I used that. I put that together as a kind of a training video for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Let me interrupt you of sorts. Did you choose to do it or the Peace Corps asked you?

[User] Yeah, I chose to do it.

[Assistant] And did they asked you to do any of these projects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I chose to do it.

[Assistant] And did they asked you to do any of these projects?

[User] No, no. So when I arrived in country and I made that video of my training, it was just kind of a fun thing to do. I showed it to everyone. Another volunteer named Jason Sears, he saw that video and he saw that this guy's got skills. And he recruited me to work on a video project that he was doing.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And that was, which was this volunteer training video. And so I teamed up with him. And then we worked together to kind of travel around the country interviewing volunteers and Peace Corps staff and then put all that together into this hour, hour and a half long video about Peace Corps life in the Namibia and then the Peace Corps in Namibia would use that to show to training groups.

[Assistant] So it's been utilized. Good for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. So when I arrived in country and I made that video of my training, it was just kind of a fun thing to do. I showed it to everyone. Another volunteer named Jason Sears, he saw that video and he saw that this guy's got skills. And he recruited me to work on a video project that he was doing.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And that was, which was this volunteer training video. And so I teamed up with him. And then we worked together to kind of travel around the country interviewing volunteers and Peace Corps staff and then put all that together into this hour, hour and a half long video about Peace Corps life in the Namibia and then the Peace Corps in Namibia would use that to show to training groups.

[Assistant] So it's been utilized. Good for you.

[User] Yeah, I did following videos and I did after that. I applied for a grant to travel around the country and interview volunteers living with families and interviewing the volunteers and then some family members about what life was like in that situation.

[Assistant] Good. And if I may say then, 11 years later, you're deciding to be part of the Peace Corps Oral History Project. OK, good. I'm going on to question eleven. We're coming to a close. How would you evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? And you have the questions too. We've touched on this, to provide technical assistance were requested. You've given me some examples.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was, which was this volunteer training video. And so I teamed up with him. And then we worked together to kind of travel around the country interviewing volunteers and Peace Corps staff and then put all that together into this hour, hour and a half long video about Peace Corps life in the Namibia and then the Peace Corps in Namibia would use that to show to training groups.

[Assistant] So it's been utilized. Good for you.

[User] Yeah, I did following videos and I did after that. I applied for a grant to travel around the country and interview volunteers living with families and interviewing the volunteers and then some family members about what life was like in that situation.

[Assistant] Good. And if I may say then, 11 years later, you're deciding to be part of the Peace Corps Oral History Project. OK, good. I'm going on to question eleven. We're coming to a close. How would you evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? And you have the questions too. We've touched on this, to provide technical assistance were requested. You've given me some examples.

[User] Well, I was a teacher, you know.

[Assistant] So did you teach your students technology or no?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I did following videos and I did after that. I applied for a grant to travel around the country and interview volunteers living with families and interviewing the volunteers and then some family members about what life was like in that situation.

[Assistant] Good. And if I may say then, 11 years later, you're deciding to be part of the Peace Corps Oral History Project. OK, good. I'm going on to question eleven. We're coming to a close. How would you evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? And you have the questions too. We've touched on this, to provide technical assistance were requested. You've given me some examples.

[User] Well, I was a teacher, you know.

[Assistant] So did you teach your students technology or no?

[User] Well I taught them physical science and I tried to make it fun and interesting and engaging. And, you know, these are kids who their day to day life is working out in the field, you know, plowing fields for, you know, for millet. And so, you know, you can imagine how learning about the structure of an atom is not really relevant. So I tried to make class really interesting and engaging just the way that I taught, I mean, a fun teacher. And so in that sense I guess I try to get them excited about learning. And so in terms of, you know, meeting the first goal of the Peace Corps, which is training people, educating people, I guess, in my situation, um, no, I accomplished that to the average degree, I must say. I wouldn’t feel like tremendous outcomes there. But the second and third goals, I feel like I've really gone above beyond the second goal, just sharing who I am, my culture. Definitely did that during my Peace Corps service, but even in years afterwards. Just recently, I had a friend of mine, a former student of mine, come and visit the United States from Namibia.

[Assistant] Did he stay here or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a teacher, you know.

[Assistant] So did you teach your students technology or no?

[User] Well I taught them physical science and I tried to make it fun and interesting and engaging. And, you know, these are kids who their day to day life is working out in the field, you know, plowing fields for, you know, for millet. And so, you know, you can imagine how learning about the structure of an atom is not really relevant. So I tried to make class really interesting and engaging just the way that I taught, I mean, a fun teacher. And so in that sense I guess I try to get them excited about learning. And so in terms of, you know, meeting the first goal of the Peace Corps, which is training people, educating people, I guess, in my situation, um, no, I accomplished that to the average degree, I must say. I wouldn’t feel like tremendous outcomes there. But the second and third goals, I feel like I've really gone above beyond the second goal, just sharing who I am, my culture. Definitely did that during my Peace Corps service, but even in years afterwards. Just recently, I had a friend of mine, a former student of mine, come and visit the United States from Namibia.

[Assistant] Did he stay here or?

[User] He stayed with me for three weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, good. How was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I taught them physical science and I tried to make it fun and interesting and engaging. And, you know, these are kids who their day to day life is working out in the field, you know, plowing fields for, you know, for millet. And so, you know, you can imagine how learning about the structure of an atom is not really relevant. So I tried to make class really interesting and engaging just the way that I taught, I mean, a fun teacher. And so in that sense I guess I try to get them excited about learning. And so in terms of, you know, meeting the first goal of the Peace Corps, which is training people, educating people, I guess, in my situation, um, no, I accomplished that to the average degree, I must say. I wouldn’t feel like tremendous outcomes there. But the second and third goals, I feel like I've really gone above beyond the second goal, just sharing who I am, my culture. Definitely did that during my Peace Corps service, but even in years afterwards. Just recently, I had a friend of mine, a former student of mine, come and visit the United States from Namibia.

[Assistant] Did he stay here or?

[User] He stayed with me for three weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, good. How was that?

[User] It was amazing. Wonderful. Yeah, it's a dream of mine to bring him here and also dream of his, you know. And he was one of my students from my science class, grade nine. His name is Pontianus Mukishi. And so I was able to share with him my culture. And then third goal, I've been talking about my Peace Corps service for ten years.

[Assistant] And you're a recruiter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He stayed with me for three weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, good. How was that?

[User] It was amazing. Wonderful. Yeah, it's a dream of mine to bring him here and also dream of his, you know. And he was one of my students from my science class, grade nine. His name is Pontianus Mukishi. And so I was able to share with him my culture. And then third goal, I've been talking about my Peace Corps service for ten years.

[Assistant] And you're a recruiter.

[User] Yeah. And it's part of my life. And I wholeheartedly believe in the importance of people traveling the world and learning about other cultures and other people opening themselves up to these experiences. I feel that it changes people for the better, um, just by putting yourself in these situations where you have this visceral experience and just by being in the presence of somebody else who is of a different culture and different country, I feel like that changes people for the better.

[Assistant] Yeah. You know, question 12, you've answered this, all about your contact with people from the country. You know, you're going back tomorrow. You're a Peace Corps recruiter. You've got one and a half more years, you told me at some point. You're involved with the third goal activities. Anything you might want to add that's not specified in that question?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was amazing. Wonderful. Yeah, it's a dream of mine to bring him here and also dream of his, you know. And he was one of my students from my science class, grade nine. His name is Pontianus Mukishi. And so I was able to share with him my culture. And then third goal, I've been talking about my Peace Corps service for ten years.

[Assistant] And you're a recruiter.

[User] Yeah. And it's part of my life. And I wholeheartedly believe in the importance of people traveling the world and learning about other cultures and other people opening themselves up to these experiences. I feel that it changes people for the better, um, just by putting yourself in these situations where you have this visceral experience and just by being in the presence of somebody else who is of a different culture and different country, I feel like that changes people for the better.

[Assistant] Yeah. You know, question 12, you've answered this, all about your contact with people from the country. You know, you're going back tomorrow. You're a Peace Corps recruiter. You've got one and a half more years, you told me at some point. You're involved with the third goal activities. Anything you might want to add that's not specified in that question?

[User] Let's see. This is question 12. Yeah, I would say I haven't really talked about Ponty a whole lot, so let me just.

[Assistant] Ok, and I might have missed something here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And it's part of my life. And I wholeheartedly believe in the importance of people traveling the world and learning about other cultures and other people opening themselves up to these experiences. I feel that it changes people for the better, um, just by putting yourself in these situations where you have this visceral experience and just by being in the presence of somebody else who is of a different culture and different country, I feel like that changes people for the better.

[Assistant] Yeah. You know, question 12, you've answered this, all about your contact with people from the country. You know, you're going back tomorrow. You're a Peace Corps recruiter. You've got one and a half more years, you told me at some point. You're involved with the third goal activities. Anything you might want to add that's not specified in that question?

[User] Let's see. This is question 12. Yeah, I would say I haven't really talked about Ponty a whole lot, so let me just.

[Assistant] Ok, and I might have missed something here.

[User] I was talking about Matjayi earlier.

[Assistant] Yeah. And Ponty, is he the young man that came to you recently? OK, hold on just a minute. As you talk about how you spell his name, please.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. This is question 12. Yeah, I would say I haven't really talked about Ponty a whole lot, so let me just.

[Assistant] Ok, and I might have missed something here.

[User] I was talking about Matjayi earlier.

[Assistant] Yeah. And Ponty, is he the young man that came to you recently? OK, hold on just a minute. As you talk about how you spell his name, please.

[User] Pontianus, P-O-N-T-I-A-N-U-S.

[Assistant] That's his first name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was talking about Matjayi earlier.

[Assistant] Yeah. And Ponty, is he the young man that came to you recently? OK, hold on just a minute. As you talk about how you spell his name, please.

[User] Pontianus, P-O-N-T-I-A-N-U-S.

[Assistant] That's his first name.

[User] It's his first name. He goes by Ponty.

[Assistant] And his last name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pontianus, P-O-N-T-I-A-N-U-S.

[Assistant] That's his first name.

[User] It's his first name. He goes by Ponty.

[Assistant] And his last name?

[User] Mukishi. M-U-K-I-S-H-I.

[Assistant] And he was a former student.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's his first name. He goes by Ponty.

[Assistant] And his last name?

[User] Mukishi. M-U-K-I-S-H-I.

[Assistant] And he was a former student.

[User] He's in my grade class.

[Assistant] OK. What would you like to share with us about Ponty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mukishi. M-U-K-I-S-H-I.

[Assistant] And he was a former student.

[User] He's in my grade class.

[Assistant] OK. What would you like to share with us about Ponty?

[User] I could talk about him forever. Ponty, he's a special person. I knew this right away when I first met him. It's hard to put my finger on it in words, but sometimes you just know something about somebody you can, you know you can trust them. You know they have integrity. And I did tell that about him. I can tell that he's a good person inside. In Namibia we had Camp GLOW.

[Assistant] I know a little bit. We had a Peace Corps meeting, one of our bi-monthly meetings. We had talked about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's in my grade class.

[Assistant] OK. What would you like to share with us about Ponty?

[User] I could talk about him forever. Ponty, he's a special person. I knew this right away when I first met him. It's hard to put my finger on it in words, but sometimes you just know something about somebody you can, you know you can trust them. You know they have integrity. And I did tell that about him. I can tell that he's a good person inside. In Namibia we had Camp GLOW.

[Assistant] I know a little bit. We had a Peace Corps meeting, one of our bi-monthly meetings. We had talked about it.

[User] So GLOW is Girls Leading Our World and we changed it to Girls and Guys Leading Our World. And so Ponty applied. He got accepted to go, actually taking out one of my, Matjayi, one of my other students, Matjayi’s older cousin and he applied. He got accepted, but then he got thrown in jail and kind of had a falling out. And so Ponty filled in his place. So we went and did this leadership camp and that's how I really got to know Ponty much better through that experience. And so then, you know, Ponty and I just started to develop a friendship, relationship. I wasn't, like, super close with him for a while. But I guess towards the end of my service, I just started to see a lot of potential in him. And I wanted to help him out if I could. I felt like I felt like if I invested in this guy, he's going to make the most of it. And so when I left Namibia, there's another volunteer who, I told her, can you help? I'm going to give you some money. Can you help pay for his school fees so he can get into senior secondary school?

[Assistant] Could I interrupt you, was school free?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could talk about him forever. Ponty, he's a special person. I knew this right away when I first met him. It's hard to put my finger on it in words, but sometimes you just know something about somebody you can, you know you can trust them. You know they have integrity. And I did tell that about him. I can tell that he's a good person inside. In Namibia we had Camp GLOW.

[Assistant] I know a little bit. We had a Peace Corps meeting, one of our bi-monthly meetings. We had talked about it.

[User] So GLOW is Girls Leading Our World and we changed it to Girls and Guys Leading Our World. And so Ponty applied. He got accepted to go, actually taking out one of my, Matjayi, one of my other students, Matjayi’s older cousin and he applied. He got accepted, but then he got thrown in jail and kind of had a falling out. And so Ponty filled in his place. So we went and did this leadership camp and that's how I really got to know Ponty much better through that experience. And so then, you know, Ponty and I just started to develop a friendship, relationship. I wasn't, like, super close with him for a while. But I guess towards the end of my service, I just started to see a lot of potential in him. And I wanted to help him out if I could. I felt like I felt like if I invested in this guy, he's going to make the most of it. And so when I left Namibia, there's another volunteer who, I told her, can you help? I'm going to give you some money. Can you help pay for his school fees so he can get into senior secondary school?

[Assistant] Could I interrupt you, was school free?

[User] All the students had to pay for school.

[Assistant] Even grade one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So GLOW is Girls Leading Our World and we changed it to Girls and Guys Leading Our World. And so Ponty applied. He got accepted to go, actually taking out one of my, Matjayi, one of my other students, Matjayi’s older cousin and he applied. He got accepted, but then he got thrown in jail and kind of had a falling out. And so Ponty filled in his place. So we went and did this leadership camp and that's how I really got to know Ponty much better through that experience. And so then, you know, Ponty and I just started to develop a friendship, relationship. I wasn't, like, super close with him for a while. But I guess towards the end of my service, I just started to see a lot of potential in him. And I wanted to help him out if I could. I felt like I felt like if I invested in this guy, he's going to make the most of it. And so when I left Namibia, there's another volunteer who, I told her, can you help? I'm going to give you some money. Can you help pay for his school fees so he can get into senior secondary school?

[Assistant] Could I interrupt you, was school free?

[User] All the students had to pay for school.

[Assistant] Even grade one?

[User] Uh, I don't know about the primary schools.

[Assistant] But later on, it's a public school but they had to pay fees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the students had to pay for school.

[Assistant] Even grade one?

[User] Uh, I don't know about the primary schools.

[Assistant] But later on, it's a public school but they had to pay fees.

[User] They had to pay school fees and they had to pay for exams. So it's very challenging.

[Assistant] Was it expensive or was it a reasonable price for them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had to pay school fees and they had to pay for exams. So it's very challenging.

[Assistant] Was it expensive or was it a reasonable price for them?

[User] It was expensive for them. In U.S. dollars, you know, ten, fifteen dollars, you know, it's not a whole lot. But when you don't have a steady income and you live in a subsistence farming.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] OK, so I told my friend to help if she would help pay for Ponty’s school fees, I'll transfer money to her and then she could transfer money to Ponty. And so that's how I kind of stay connected with him. I helped him get into the grade 11, grade 12, and then he was finally able to graduate from secondary school.

[Assistant] Yeah, that you had a word for it because your school went to the tenth grade. What was the name for grade 11 and 12?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was expensive for them. In U.S. dollars, you know, ten, fifteen dollars, you know, it's not a whole lot. But when you don't have a steady income and you live in a subsistence farming.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] OK, so I told my friend to help if she would help pay for Ponty’s school fees, I'll transfer money to her and then she could transfer money to Ponty. And so that's how I kind of stay connected with him. I helped him get into the grade 11, grade 12, and then he was finally able to graduate from secondary school.

[Assistant] Yeah, that you had a word for it because your school went to the tenth grade. What was the name for grade 11 and 12?

[User] Senior secondary.

[Assistant] Senior secondary. OK, continue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Senior secondary.

[Assistant] Senior secondary. OK, continue.

[User] But that was kind of the end of it. You know, this was like 2009, ‘10. I just, you know, didn't really hear a whole lot from Ponty afterwards. Every now and then maybe I'd see something on Facebook. You know, I started getting on Facebook at that time, but it wasn't until 2012. I was in graduate school in Colorado at Boulder, and I was just working on my computer and I get this little notification pop up and I look and I'm like, who is this? And it turns out it's a Google video chat request from Ponty.

[Assistant] Ok, OK.

[User] And when I left Namibia, I didn't even know that he knew how to use a computer, but.

[Assistant] Oh and so they had no computers in school at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, initially, I just helped pay his school fees so he can get to grade 11 and 12.

[Assistant] But when he got here?

[User] Oh, when he got here. This was in October. And so when he when Ponty came, well the whole reason why I wanted to get Ponty to come to the United States was just for the simple act of him being here and seeing what it is. And so then it would help to maybe just dispel any myths that he might have or, you know, just to add some more reality to this kind of mythical idea of what the United States is to so many people in the media. Well, they just see what's on TV and so I want to I want to show him, uh, you know, what my life is like. And so that was the main reason I you know, of course, once he got here and once he started preparing plans, he found many opportunities to promote the work that he's doing. And all the people we presented to really loved this idea and they want to support him and help now.

[Assistant] So could it be a Peace Corps partnership?

[User] Uh, could be, but we need to have a Peace Corps volunteer currently serving. And we've explored that a little bit, but haven't had too much luck yet. But ultimately, what I want to do is set up an official non-profit entity in the States that can support the work he's doing in Namibia. He's registered as an official business in Namibia. So he's got that already taken care of, and then I want to support as much as I can from here in the States. And ultimately we can turn this into, I mean, if I'm being really ambitious, this could be my future job, future career.

[Assistant] Helping with development.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, could be, but we need to have a Peace Corps volunteer currently serving. And we've explored that a little bit, but haven't had too much luck yet. But ultimately, what I want to do is set up an official non-profit entity in the States that can support the work he's doing in Namibia. He's registered as an official business in Namibia. So he's got that already taken care of, and then I want to support as much as I can from here in the States. And ultimately we can turn this into, I mean, if I'm being really ambitious, this could be my future job, future career.

[Assistant] Helping with development.

[User] Yeah. Turning into a more well-established kind of non- profit organization. Right now we're at the very initial beginning stages. But you know, I feel like we have the foundation of the seeds for something like.

[Assistant] Wow, that's a great story, sincerely. I think so. Wow, what can I say? I know you've got to get ready for your trip tomorrow to Africa. Well, I'll just word it this way. Number question thirteen. You've shared a lot of information, personal, your Peace Corps experience, et cetera. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Anything else, anything else you might want to add about how the Peace Corps has affected you? In your view as a person, career plans, you just sort of mentioned that are you still in that program at Regis? You are still a graduate student at Regis now with this development practice. Sounds interesting. OK, anything else you might want to add or something that I didn't touch on?

[User] You know, I never imagined that I would do the Peace Corps when I was younger, like, you know, high school, early 20s, I never thought of this.

[Assistant] So you were like mid 20s when you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Turning into a more well-established kind of non- profit organization. Right now we're at the very initial beginning stages. But you know, I feel like we have the foundation of the seeds for something like.

[Assistant] Wow, that's a great story, sincerely. I think so. Wow, what can I say? I know you've got to get ready for your trip tomorrow to Africa. Well, I'll just word it this way. Number question thirteen. You've shared a lot of information, personal, your Peace Corps experience, et cetera. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Anything else, anything else you might want to add about how the Peace Corps has affected you? In your view as a person, career plans, you just sort of mentioned that are you still in that program at Regis? You are still a graduate student at Regis now with this development practice. Sounds interesting. OK, anything else you might want to add or something that I didn't touch on?

[User] You know, I never imagined that I would do the Peace Corps when I was younger, like, you know, high school, early 20s, I never thought of this.

[Assistant] So you were like mid 20s when you went?

[User] I was 26. And I just I would say that for the majority of my early life and into my early 20s, I felt kind of lost. I was searching for something, I was searching for meaning, searching for just some direction. And I couldn’t really put my thumb on, you know, what would be the right path for me. And I guess like what the Peace Corps has given me, it's been kind of like a compass in my life, a moral compass, if you will.

[Assistant] A moral compass.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's served me on many different levels. It's given me something to invest myself and to commit myself to a cause, to commit myself to, which I think is such a powerful idea. If you can find it, if you can find an idea that you believe in, that can be such a motivating force in your life. And so this has given me an idea to commend myself and, uh, commit myself to and to believe it. And it's not to say that I'm gung ho about the Peace Corps itself. It's more about what the Peace Corps is trying to move towards and trying to represent. It's very idealistic. You know, we're trying to create a more unified and harmonious world, to learning about each other and understanding each other’s cultures. And that's something that I wholeheartedly embrace. And I always tell people, um, you know, yes, you can do the Peace Corps, but what I care about most is that you open yourself up to traveling, to other people and other cultures, and you can do that through traveling. And the Peace Corps gives you a gateway to do that. And so, you know, for me, it's just really helped me to kind of find direction in my life. It's become that in a very real way by working for the organization. But I have to think beyond a Peace Corps. I'm not going to be a recruiter forever.

[Assistant] You can’t, you're limited to five years I believe.

[User] And so I only have a year and a half left and I got to figure out, OK, what am I going to do? Well, I know I want to work in development work. I want to be involved in development work to some degree for the rest of my life. I just know that. I know that I love multimedia work. And Peace Corps gave me an opportunity to explore that. And to a great degree, which I don't know if I would have had otherwise or had the courage to pursue that as much as I did.

[Assistant] Are you interested in teaching?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK, the reason I asked is because you were a teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I only have a year and a half left and I got to figure out, OK, what am I going to do? Well, I know I want to work in development work. I want to be involved in development work to some degree for the rest of my life. I just know that. I know that I love multimedia work. And Peace Corps gave me an opportunity to explore that. And to a great degree, which I don't know if I would have had otherwise or had the courage to pursue that as much as I did.

[Assistant] Are you interested in teaching?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK, the reason I asked is because you were a teacher.

[User] I was, but it was extremely difficult for me. Yeah, I do really great in one-on-one situations, yeah. I can focus directly on one person.

[Assistant] But the whole class is different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK, the reason I asked is because you were a teacher.

[User] I was, but it was extremely difficult for me. Yeah, I do really great in one-on-one situations, yeah. I can focus directly on one person.

[Assistant] But the whole class is different.

[User] A group is really hard on me. It drains me. And that's why after I get done with a day of teaching, I'll go home and close the door, recoup, get my energy back. And then plus being a teacher you have to be the disciplinarian. I'm not a disciplinarian. I like to be the friend. So when I’m one-on-one, I can do really well, so if anything, I would be like a counselor maybe.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK, but not the classroom teacher, that’s fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, but it was extremely difficult for me. Yeah, I do really great in one-on-one situations, yeah. I can focus directly on one person.

[Assistant] But the whole class is different.

[User] A group is really hard on me. It drains me. And that's why after I get done with a day of teaching, I'll go home and close the door, recoup, get my energy back. And then plus being a teacher you have to be the disciplinarian. I'm not a disciplinarian. I like to be the friend. So when I’m one-on-one, I can do really well, so if anything, I would be like a counselor maybe.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK, but not the classroom teacher, that’s fine.

[User] That's why I'm not the classroom teacher. I love the power of a story. And so what Peace Corps has given me is, power story. It's given me many stories to tell. It’s shown me how powerful connecting with other people can be and opening up yourself to other people can be. And just in recruiting so many people over so many years, it's been really encouraging on the one hand, because I see how many people want to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Really, still? I wonder about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A group is really hard on me. It drains me. And that's why after I get done with a day of teaching, I'll go home and close the door, recoup, get my energy back. And then plus being a teacher you have to be the disciplinarian. I'm not a disciplinarian. I like to be the friend. So when I’m one-on-one, I can do really well, so if anything, I would be like a counselor maybe.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK, but not the classroom teacher, that’s fine.

[User] That's why I'm not the classroom teacher. I love the power of a story. And so what Peace Corps has given me is, power story. It's given me many stories to tell. It’s shown me how powerful connecting with other people can be and opening up yourself to other people can be. And just in recruiting so many people over so many years, it's been really encouraging on the one hand, because I see how many people want to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Really, still? I wonder about that.

[User] Well, you know, I interact with people reaching out to me about this every single day, so I have a little bit of a skewed perspective. Yeah.

[Assistant] And just for the record, the interviewer is a baby boomer, so I wonder if young millennials are still interested. That was not part of the interview question, but I just thought I'd throw it in. And I really do wonder, do people really care about development or what's going well? Not that I don't think people do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's why I'm not the classroom teacher. I love the power of a story. And so what Peace Corps has given me is, power story. It's given me many stories to tell. It’s shown me how powerful connecting with other people can be and opening up yourself to other people can be. And just in recruiting so many people over so many years, it's been really encouraging on the one hand, because I see how many people want to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Really, still? I wonder about that.

[User] Well, you know, I interact with people reaching out to me about this every single day, so I have a little bit of a skewed perspective. Yeah.

[Assistant] And just for the record, the interviewer is a baby boomer, so I wonder if young millennials are still interested. That was not part of the interview question, but I just thought I'd throw it in. And I really do wonder, do people really care about development or what's going well? Not that I don't think people do.

[User] It's not so much that they want to, like, care about development. It's that what I’ve seen as like an underlying current theme is that people want to have meaning and purpose. They want to do something that they want to do work that means something. And a lot of times people, you know, that may be in a job that just isn't very fulfilling, doesn't feel like they're doing anything that matters. And that's kind of what keeps coming up over and over again. Meaning, yes, they want to do something that makes a difference. And that's why I first sought out the Peace Corps. When I started searching around my senior year in college, I was looking for something that would give me more meaning in my life. And I wasn't getting that from my studies and science. And then, you know, I stumbled across the Peace Corps. But that initial impulse was to try and find something, some kind of work that I could do that mattered.

[Assistant] And you found it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, I interact with people reaching out to me about this every single day, so I have a little bit of a skewed perspective. Yeah.

[Assistant] And just for the record, the interviewer is a baby boomer, so I wonder if young millennials are still interested. That was not part of the interview question, but I just thought I'd throw it in. And I really do wonder, do people really care about development or what's going well? Not that I don't think people do.

[User] It's not so much that they want to, like, care about development. It's that what I’ve seen as like an underlying current theme is that people want to have meaning and purpose. They want to do something that they want to do work that means something. And a lot of times people, you know, that may be in a job that just isn't very fulfilling, doesn't feel like they're doing anything that matters. And that's kind of what keeps coming up over and over again. Meaning, yes, they want to do something that makes a difference. And that's why I first sought out the Peace Corps. When I started searching around my senior year in college, I was looking for something that would give me more meaning in my life. And I wasn't getting that from my studies and science. And then, you know, I stumbled across the Peace Corps. But that initial impulse was to try and find something, some kind of work that I could do that mattered.

[Assistant] And you found it.

[User] And I found it.

[Assistant] It's a process, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you so much, Cedar. I can't think of anything else to ask you. You've shared oodles. I mean, it's been very interesting. And by the way, listener, Cedar is contemplating or will be maybe the resource person or what's the official title for this, coordinator for the Returned Peace Corps Volunteer Oral History Project. So I was happy to interview Cedar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's not so much that they want to, like, care about development. It's that what I’ve seen as like an underlying current theme is that people want to have meaning and purpose. They want to do something that they want to do work that means something. And a lot of times people, you know, that may be in a job that just isn't very fulfilling, doesn't feel like they're doing anything that matters. And that's kind of what keeps coming up over and over again. Meaning, yes, they want to do something that makes a difference. And that's why I first sought out the Peace Corps. When I started searching around my senior year in college, I was looking for something that would give me more meaning in my life. And I wasn't getting that from my studies and science. And then, you know, I stumbled across the Peace Corps. But that initial impulse was to try and find something, some kind of work that I could do that mattered.

[Assistant] And you found it.

[User] And I found it.

[Assistant] It's a process, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you so much, Cedar. I can't think of anything else to ask you. You've shared oodles. I mean, it's been very interesting. And by the way, listener, Cedar is contemplating or will be maybe the resource person or what's the official title for this, coordinator for the Returned Peace Corps Volunteer Oral History Project. So I was happy to interview Cedar.

[User] And if anything and I guess I can close out with this. I want to give back to the Peace Corps community in some way. I wanted to leave my mark, however I can on this organization, this community, this idea that has influenced and changed my life in so many great lives. And so hopefully through my involvement with something like this through this oral history project, maybe that can be a way for me to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. Thank you so much. And so are we closing the interview now, Cedar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I found it.

[Assistant] It's a process, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you so much, Cedar. I can't think of anything else to ask you. You've shared oodles. I mean, it's been very interesting. And by the way, listener, Cedar is contemplating or will be maybe the resource person or what's the official title for this, coordinator for the Returned Peace Corps Volunteer Oral History Project. So I was happy to interview Cedar.

[User] And if anything and I guess I can close out with this. I want to give back to the Peace Corps community in some way. I wanted to leave my mark, however I can on this organization, this community, this idea that has influenced and changed my life in so many great lives. And so hopefully through my involvement with something like this through this oral history project, maybe that can be a way for me to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. Thank you so much. And so are we closing the interview now, Cedar?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] OK, I guess we can turn off the recorder.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And if anything and I guess I can close out with this. I want to give back to the Peace Corps community in some way. I wanted to leave my mark, however I can on this organization, this community, this idea that has influenced and changed my life in so many great lives. And so hopefully through my involvement with something like this through this oral history project, maybe that can be a way for me to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. Thank you so much. And so are we closing the interview now, Cedar?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] OK, I guess we can turn off the recorder.

[User] Or wait for round two!

[Assistant] I don't have any more questions right now. OK, that was Cedar Wolf. C-E-D-A-R W-O-L-F. OK, thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The way I remember it, there were a lot of different versions of what the RIO was going to be, everything from assistant flight director to just somebody that's mimicking what everybody else tells them. In reality, the job wound up being something in between, trying to be a cognizant as you could of what was going on on the flight control team and figuring out which of that we should tell the Russians. Not to withhold information, but that it wasn't relevant to their decision-making processes. And then to do the reverse.\n\n They had a person in their control center that was doing the same thing, which was aide to the flight director. The Russian acronym was PRP. So you'd have to take what he told you and figure out the relevance to the decisions that we were making in the control center and then pass those along to either the flight director or the appropriate person on the flight control team.

[Assistant] You're like a right-hand person to people in the Mission Control Center?

[User] Yes. It was a way to simplify the interface between the two control teams. We plan to use them for the station, just because if you have two flight control teams, you do want everybody talking to everybody else. You want our environmental specialists to be able to talk to their environmental specialists. But as far as marching down the road of executing the mission, you need somebody that's going to keep each control center in sync, because you can go off forty directions with everybody doing their same thing. You have that problem anyway with one flight control team. So with two, you needed, I guess you'd call it a sync pulse. Keep the control teams in line. That's kind of what the RIO and the PRP did.

[Assistant] Kind of developed your job as you went through it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was more than on-the-job training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was a way to simplify the interface between the two control teams. We plan to use them for the station, just because if you have two flight control teams, you do want everybody talking to everybody else. You want our environmental specialists to be able to talk to their environmental specialists. But as far as marching down the road of executing the mission, you need somebody that's going to keep each control center in sync, because you can go off forty directions with everybody doing their same thing. You have that problem anyway with one flight control team. So with two, you needed, I guess you'd call it a sync pulse. Keep the control teams in line. That's kind of what the RIO and the PRP did.

[Assistant] Kind of developed your job as you went through it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was more than on-the-job training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was on-the-job job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was more than on-the-job training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was on-the-job job.

[User] Yes. Since it was a new concept position, we had to start from scratch on everything: console, procedures, everything from making sure there was a hole-puncher to training interpreters. We weren't sure what we were going to have to do when we started the job, what it was going to take. We soon found out that we were going to be teaching interpreters basic Shuttle training classes. We had to figure out how to certify the interpreters and get them all trained, and how we were going to simulate the Russians when they weren't really in a simulation with us.\n\n We wound up training ourselves. We'd have one RIO that was part of the flight control team and his interpreter. Then over in the training area where the rest of the training team sit, we'd have another RIO and another interpreter, being Moscow. We would help write the scripts and be a part of the training team. Then when it was your turn to train on the flight, you'd switch with someone.\n\n There was one particular PRP that they had, sometimes it was difficult to get agreement out of him on things, and you didn't understand why not. It wasn't like, "Yes, we understand why you don't agree." It was like, "Why are you disagreeing with us?" We always tried to emulate him when we were on the simulation side. When we were training one class of interpreters, they were like, "Why are you doing that? That's so negative training. You're being difficult when you know these people are not going to be difficult to work with."\n\n The first time that person sat down and the person we were simulating was really on the other end of the line they said, "Gosh, this is just like in the simulations." We all laughed about it, because we knew. I mean, we didn't make it up. We were just trying to be as difficult as he was trying to be.

[Assistant] The training was realistic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tried not to focus too much on what was going on on the rendezvous, and focus on what my role was as the RIO. But I remember when I looked up, we had the TV on, we had the camera pointed at the top of the docking system, and when I saw those two pieces of hardware coming together, I thought, "Gosh, this is just the coolest thing I've ever done." But when you're in that moment, you can't stand up and say, "Yea, we did it!" You have to keep focus on what you're doing, because there's a lot that happens after the interfaces hook up, too. There were a lot of calls that we were making back and forth then, too.\n\n But when the shift was over, I stood back and thought--I thought back to--I can't remember, was it three years? I think it flew in 1995, 71 flew in 1995. All that had happened from the first time I had been there, when we were sitting across the table from them trying to figure out if we could even do this, could the Shuttle dock to the Mir without some kind of technical difficulties that couldn't be overcome, and we'd done it. It was just the coolest feeling. I can't tell you. I was just like, "Oh, I'm so happy to be a part of this."

[Assistant] Then you got, of course, to watch it move on into the other areas, as well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned, too, that learning to deal with the Russians was a lesson that all the RIOs had to encounter.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share some of the lessons or some of the experiences that you went through learning the successful way to deal with your international partners?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You found a good working relationship?

[User] In general. There were a couple of personality differences, but, yes, and we knew we had a job to do and the flight directors expected us to do it. So we moved down that path. We hit a couple of roadblocks every once in a while, but that's normal.

[Assistant] Did you ever encounter any hesitation from your counterpart when they spoke with you because you were a female?

[User] Yes. It's hard for me to articulate without sounding negative about the Russians, but their culture is not the nineties' culture like it is here. They're making progress. I think they'll probably have a feminist movement. They're probably in the beginnings of a feminist movement now. I got a lot of comments, but they were never intended in a negative. It was more of an enlightening, I felt like, to them.\n\n The second trip I went over there, there were eight or nine of us. We had a couple of engineering people, mostly MOD people, Bob Castle and Gary Coen and myself and another woman who was the rendezvous specialist on 71, and one of the engineering specialists in attitude control went. So there were three women, six or seven men. I can't remember exactly. Small group. We met for a week.\n\n At the end of the week, they invited Gary Coen over to a party at Vladimir Solovyev's house, and they were trading stories and so forth. One of the Russians asked him, "Where did you get all those smart women?" [Laughter] Gary told us that story a couple of days later. He didn't tell us right away. But we all laughed about it.

[Assistant] Well, that was a compliment, coming from him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, no. While I was over there doing simulations or missions, every day was different. I mean, we never knew what the mood was going to be when you came in. You just had to go with it. If things are not going well, you can't let that set the tone for how it's going to go on your shift. You have to come in with a positive attitude and go to work and get things done like that.\n\n Sometimes getting ready for a flight was kind of cumbersome, getting documentation updated and making sure we had everything we needed. The logistics were all arranged for the consultants. The interpreters were trained and certified and ready to go, and understood their getting on shift, and so forth, like that. Sometimes it was a little cumbersome. But I found that to be true in other console positions, too. Right before flight, you're all focused on the flight and you forget to pick your kids up from dance. [Laughter] Things like that. But overall, I would say it was a great experience. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Assistant] I guess your families have to be a little flexible, as well.

[User] Yes. My daughter, her birthday this year, there were some Russians in town for a meeting and they asked if we could go to the beach. My daughter wanted to go to the beach on her birthday. So my husband loaded her and all her friends up in his car and then I had a carload of Russians, basically had to spend most of the day entertaining them. Sarah said, "Are you going to pay any attention to me? It's my birthday." She's fourteen years old. You know how they are.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It's like, "Yes, Sarah, I'll do the best I can, but I have to take care of my Russian friends here, too."

[Assistant] I guess she didn't go for being the only fourteen-year-old that had international friends there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. My daughter, her birthday this year, there were some Russians in town for a meeting and they asked if we could go to the beach. My daughter wanted to go to the beach on her birthday. So my husband loaded her and all her friends up in his car and then I had a carload of Russians, basically had to spend most of the day entertaining them. Sarah said, "Are you going to pay any attention to me? It's my birthday." She's fourteen years old. You know how they are.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It's like, "Yes, Sarah, I'll do the best I can, but I have to take care of my Russian friends here, too."

[Assistant] I guess she didn't go for being the only fourteen-year-old that had international friends there.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Didn't work. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's like, "Yes, Sarah, I'll do the best I can, but I have to take care of my Russian friends here, too."

[Assistant] I guess she didn't go for being the only fourteen-year-old that had international friends there.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Didn't work. [Laughter]

[User] The funny thing is, since we've been working together for most of their cognizant youth, they take it for granted that you work with Russians. It's just people from another place. It's not the guys that we used to point our nuclear weapons at, because that was before they understood all of that.

[Assistant] Hopefully they'll grow up with a different perception.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Didn't work. [Laughter]

[User] The funny thing is, since we've been working together for most of their cognizant youth, they take it for granted that you work with Russians. It's just people from another place. It's not the guys that we used to point our nuclear weapons at, because that was before they understood all of that.

[Assistant] Hopefully they'll grow up with a different perception.

[User] I hope so. I hope so. I think that's good. I would like for them to appreciate it in a sense that they understand the value and the importance of--I sound like a bleeding-heart liberal, but world peace and working out your differences, rather than what we had before that. I hope it stays this way, anyway.

[Assistant] Hopefully at some point you can share information with her what it was like when you were fourteen, or maybe you've already had a chance to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The funny thing is, since we've been working together for most of their cognizant youth, they take it for granted that you work with Russians. It's just people from another place. It's not the guys that we used to point our nuclear weapons at, because that was before they understood all of that.

[Assistant] Hopefully they'll grow up with a different perception.

[User] I hope so. I hope so. I think that's good. I would like for them to appreciate it in a sense that they understand the value and the importance of--I sound like a bleeding-heart liberal, but world peace and working out your differences, rather than what we had before that. I hope it stays this way, anyway.

[Assistant] Hopefully at some point you can share information with her what it was like when you were fourteen, or maybe you've already had a chance to do that.

[User] I have. I think it's intellectualizing about it, though, and she doesn't really understand what I'm trying to tell her.

[Assistant] She's fourteen. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so. I hope so. I think that's good. I would like for them to appreciate it in a sense that they understand the value and the importance of--I sound like a bleeding-heart liberal, but world peace and working out your differences, rather than what we had before that. I hope it stays this way, anyway.

[Assistant] Hopefully at some point you can share information with her what it was like when you were fourteen, or maybe you've already had a chance to do that.

[User] I have. I think it's intellectualizing about it, though, and she doesn't really understand what I'm trying to tell her.

[Assistant] She's fourteen. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. I would love for her to go to Moscow to see the Bolshoi Ballet and realize how beautiful it is. My husband had an opportunity to go earlier in the year, and it turned out he couldn't go to Moscow. But I'd love for the whole family to just go see what life is like over there, see all the old buildings and beautiful churches and all the culture and history they have there. I think they would think that was a hoot.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to spend much time when you were there doing some of those things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was just absolutely thrilled to death with the whole day. I wish there were something I could do to repay Victor and Sergei that way. Some of us took a busload of them to San Antonio one day, showed them the Riverwalk. They did a little bit of shopping. We actually went there and back all in one day, so it was kind of a long day, a lot of driving. But I think they enjoyed it.\n\n One of them, getting back to the women thing, was really impressed that I could drive all the way to San Antonio and all the way back. [Laughter] He thought that was amazing.

[Assistant] What a woman. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. I had most of the Russians in the van with me and we were driving. We were caravaning over there. There was an interpreter with us. Driving along, and I was speeding, probably going about somewhere between seventy-five and eighty, driving along. After a couple of hours, the interpreter said, "Sally, they are telling you that they have decided that you are exceeding the speed limit."\n\n I said, "Yes, I am. Thank you very much." [Laughter]\n\n But I think they were--I don't know this for sure, I think they were surprised that you could go that fast for that long. I don't know. Maybe they weren't. But it seemed like they were surprised by it.

[Assistant] Certainly noticed what you were doing, though.

[User] Yes. They talked for a long time before they finally came to that conclusion. They went back and forth. "What are they talking about?" "We have determined you are exceeding the speed limit." [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you've had new friends and new responsibilities and a whole new concept. Your days were so busy and so full. Was there ever a time during all that time period you maybe thought that this hadn't been the right decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I had most of the Russians in the van with me and we were driving. We were caravaning over there. There was an interpreter with us. Driving along, and I was speeding, probably going about somewhere between seventy-five and eighty, driving along. After a couple of hours, the interpreter said, "Sally, they are telling you that they have decided that you are exceeding the speed limit."\n\n I said, "Yes, I am. Thank you very much." [Laughter]\n\n But I think they were--I don't know this for sure, I think they were surprised that you could go that fast for that long. I don't know. Maybe they weren't. But it seemed like they were surprised by it.

[Assistant] Certainly noticed what you were doing, though.

[User] Yes. They talked for a long time before they finally came to that conclusion. They went back and forth. "What are they talking about?" "We have determined you are exceeding the speed limit." [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you've had new friends and new responsibilities and a whole new concept. Your days were so busy and so full. Was there ever a time during all that time period you maybe thought that this hadn't been the right decision?

[User] Well, not just being a RIO. I mean, my career, in general, my kids fuss at me for spending too much time at work and I try to balance. You know how that is. Everybody here knows how that goes. But I can't imagine not working, not taking the opportunities to do things like this. I don't think I'd be a very good mom if I did that, because I wouldn't feel very fulfilled. I ask myself that question almost every day, "Am I doing the right thing by working and working at a job that demands that much of me?" But I feel happy and most of the time the kids understand. My husband's real understanding. He's just super supportive of me.

[Assistant] During the missions that you worked, did you remember one being more memorable than the other one? Of course, 71, because you got to see the--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They talked for a long time before they finally came to that conclusion. They went back and forth. "What are they talking about?" "We have determined you are exceeding the speed limit." [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you've had new friends and new responsibilities and a whole new concept. Your days were so busy and so full. Was there ever a time during all that time period you maybe thought that this hadn't been the right decision?

[User] Well, not just being a RIO. I mean, my career, in general, my kids fuss at me for spending too much time at work and I try to balance. You know how that is. Everybody here knows how that goes. But I can't imagine not working, not taking the opportunities to do things like this. I don't think I'd be a very good mom if I did that, because I wouldn't feel very fulfilled. I ask myself that question almost every day, "Am I doing the right thing by working and working at a job that demands that much of me?" But I feel happy and most of the time the kids understand. My husband's real understanding. He's just super supportive of me.

[Assistant] During the missions that you worked, did you remember one being more memorable than the other one? Of course, 71, because you got to see the--

[User] 71 was definitely more memorable. By the time we got to 74, I was focusing more on my rendezvous job, because I was working on a flight that was really going to require a lot of intense effort. I didn't have as much a role on 74. I don't know. 71 will always be special, because it was the first one and we spent so much time preparing for it and practicing. Everything was new.

[Assistant] It sounds like it was a wonderful experience, a challenging experience, but a wonderful experience from one day to the next.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No matter how or at what point that comes about, it's a great idea to try to do that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly thank you for your time. Do you have anything else that's come to your mind that you'd like to add?

[User] No. I feel like I rambled a lot.

[Assistant] Oh, no. I think you've offered a lot of information and I'm sure that the information that you gave us will serve well for others that want to understand what you did. So we wish you the best of luck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, one always sort of hesitates to leave your homeland. You're going away from things that are comfortable. But both my wife's family and mine had had a lot of trans-border activity. My dad was born in New Hampshire. My wife's mother was born in Idaho. So the families had moved back and forth. I've never been a particularly political person, and I'm not sure but what parochial nationalism hasn't been one of the major problems in the world. So I was not desperately worried from the national point of view.\n\n What was really driving was the job here, was an opportunity to do something absolutely unique and be involved right from the beginning. So it wasn't something I thought very long about.

[Assistant] Quite an opportunity.

[User] Quite an opportunity.

[Assistant] When you did come down—no, actually, I'm sorry. Going back a step, the Arrow—there was a rollout of the Arrow on the same day that Sputnik was launched.

[User] A memorable time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Certainly memorable from your standpoint as an AVRO employee. Was Sputnik a factor, a discussion factor at all?