[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they haven't gone back.

[Assistant] It's a whole different world.

[User] So and then I had this other student who, when I was at, Pitt had a program of helping. You spend a year at Pitt Public Health. Then you spend two years in the Peace Corps. Then you come back and spend a year in graduate school finishing up, with the idea you've had that field experience and you're a better public health. And I was the mentor for that student, and he was pulled out of the coast of Kenya, sent up to Nairobi when they had problems. And he, you know, I keep in touch with him. He just got married. And it, his commitment to the Peace Corps is very thin. Very thin. So.

[Assistant] Well, people enter for different reasons too now.

[User] Yeah. You know, and I haven't even thought about that much. I just, it hasn't been a.

[Assistant] I do a lot of interviews and I hear the shift of why people enter. Some of it is the same, but some of it is different. Not that one is better than the other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So and then I had this other student who, when I was at, Pitt had a program of helping. You spend a year at Pitt Public Health. Then you spend two years in the Peace Corps. Then you come back and spend a year in graduate school finishing up, with the idea you've had that field experience and you're a better public health. And I was the mentor for that student, and he was pulled out of the coast of Kenya, sent up to Nairobi when they had problems. And he, you know, I keep in touch with him. He just got married. And it, his commitment to the Peace Corps is very thin. Very thin. So.

[Assistant] Well, people enter for different reasons too now.

[User] Yeah. You know, and I haven't even thought about that much. I just, it hasn't been a.

[Assistant] I do a lot of interviews and I hear the shift of why people enter. Some of it is the same, but some of it is different. Not that one is better than the other.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So we're probably winding down on time now. Are there other things you want to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, and I haven't even thought about that much. I just, it hasn't been a.

[Assistant] I do a lot of interviews and I hear the shift of why people enter. Some of it is the same, but some of it is different. Not that one is better than the other.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So we're probably winding down on time now. Are there other things you want to talk about?

[User] No, I think, you know, I think that's pretty much where my head has been at.

[Assistant] Well, let me ask you one other thing. We've talked about impact of Peace Corps on your life, friendships you've made. Can you reflect a little bit about Peace Corps' impact on Kenya or the community where you served, as well as Peace Corps' impact in the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I definitely think Peace Corps has had an impact on Kenya with these individuals who, again in the education field, that was what I know. I think that they have, um, gone on and become, become key leaders in their own country. And they remember the value of Peace Corps. I mean, the young woman who was, one of the two women became head of education for the, for the district. And she constantly would send me a note saying, you know, this was really an important thing. Can we get some more Peace Corps volunteers? Um. This doctor who's become head of the, you know, the surgeon and everything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He, it turns out his, his cousin is the equivalent to the head of the State Department, the.

[Assistant] Foreign Ministry?

[User] In the Foreign Ministry in Kenya. And he's constantly telling her about the value of Peace Corps. We were going to have a 50th anniversary of Peace Corps in Kenya. I had organized all that. I had everything set up. And then all of a sudden there was the incident in the hotel or, no, in the embassy I guess, or wherever it was they had it.

[Assistant] No, in the shopping mall.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He, it turns out his, his cousin is the equivalent to the head of the State Department, the.

[Assistant] Foreign Ministry?

[User] In the Foreign Ministry in Kenya. And he's constantly telling her about the value of Peace Corps. We were going to have a 50th anniversary of Peace Corps in Kenya. I had organized all that. I had everything set up. And then all of a sudden there was the incident in the hotel or, no, in the embassy I guess, or wherever it was they had it.

[Assistant] No, in the shopping mall.

[User] In the shopping mall. The first one, yeah, not the most recent. And that, that just quashed that. Um. I found that everybody, even if I didn't know them, when I talked to people from foreign countries and mentioned I was in the Peace Corps, it absolutely has a positive resonating effect. There's a great respect for people who've done that, a great empathy for the commitment that people have made. A lot of people don't realize, you know, I mean, I took three years, which when I look back on, three years is a lot of time. It went so fast. I was doing so much. But I don't know, it's, it's tough. I've tried to get my daughter to consider going in in two years. Uh, I don't know, Dad, you know, I'd like to, but.

[Assistant] Have to move ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To come out.

[Assistant] That's a good place to come out.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I feel.

[Assistant] On that hopeful note.

[User] I feel very happy about my life and what, what I've been able to do so far. I mean, I've done things I never thought I could possibly accomplish. I didn't even know that I could think about accomplishing them.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm convinced that the Peace Corps, you know, helped me in getting a better understanding of who I am and what I can achieve.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I feel good about that.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] So and they can't take it away. No one can take it away.

[Assistant] So thank you. It was a really good interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm, boy, well, I started my federal career at the Census Bureau, writing technical documentation, and that’s how I got involved with the archival community. Mostly, though, it was data archiving, not paper archiving, and at that time there was very little attention to data archiving, or electronic archiving of any form, within the archival community, and at the National Archives. There was a small group who understood the issues, but they were very small, and not a major force at the Archives.

[Assistant] Would you mind explaining what you mean by data recording.

[User] Well, what I was working on were data sets that were the individual responses to national surveys, so the Census Bureau does literally hundreds of surveys every year, and they produce data tapes from those that are the individual responses, at least in a way that you can’t identify an individual, but it gives researchers the ability to look at the complex relationship among variables. So, for example, if you want to study poverty, you also want to know something about an individual’s work history and their education background, and a whole series of characteristics. From aggregate data, you can’t do that kind of analysis. I mean, individual records, on an individual, to be able to analyze those things, so we produced data tapes, and then once you produce the data tape, you have to explain to people what’s on it. Now, in character 34 and 35 is race, you know, or whatever, so I would write the documentation that explained to people how the data were collected, what is on the tape, and a little bit about how to use it.

[Assistant] Okay, and so after the Census Bureau, where did you go?

[User] I was at the Census Bureau until 1991, and then I went to work for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs. I was there for four years, and then moved to the House Committee on Government Reform, and was there until 2006, when I came to the National Archives.

[Assistant] And what have you done here at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at the Census Bureau until 1991, and then I went to work for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs. I was there for four years, and then moved to the House Committee on Government Reform, and was there until 2006, when I came to the National Archives.

[Assistant] And what have you done here at the National Archives?

[User] I came here as the External Affairs Liaison position that hadn’t existed prior to my being here, and the then the Archivist wanted somebody who would be within the organization, an advocate for the user community, so somebody who would think about what we were doing from the user perspective. So, for example, the research room had a policy that they would not renew your research card until it had expired, so if you came in two days before your card expired, they wouldn't issue you a new one, you had to come back two days later, when it expired. Well, you know, some of our users come from all over the country, and that was an inconvenience at the least, and a major inconvenience for some, so I lobbied to get that policy changed, and they said they would change it. They told the Archivist that it had been changed, but it was my job to make sure that it had been changed, and sure enough, six months later, they had told the Archivist that they were no longer doing that, but they were still doing it, so it was my job to find that out and go back to the Archivist and say, “we need to do some more on this.” It put me in a very awkward position vis-à-vis the staff, because to some extent, I was—

[Assistant] Tattling? —

[User] Yeah. I was checking up on them to make sure they were doing what they said they were doing, and sometimes, advocating for policies that were not what they would like to be doing.

[Assistant] So did you have to go outside the Archives as well to work as part of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much, no. Well, after I had been here about a year and a half, the guy who recruited me left and took another job, and so I was acting Director of Congressional Affairs for about a year, and then they hired someone to fill that position fulltime, and I went back to External Affairs.

[Assistant] So, according to your resume, you were part of the Presidential Transition Team?

[User] Mm-hmm.

[Assistant] Do you mind explaining what that is?

[User] When a new President is elected, generally, they create a team to build for them a game plan of what they need to do, and it's really sort of a 90-day what is out there that we don't know about that might cause us problems, what do we need to be doing right away, what are issues that are important, what can be pushed down the road, and they put together a team—for Obama, I think it was around 100 to 150 people. My focus was the Census Bureau. I was not working on the Archives. They wanted someone who understood the policy issues at the Census, and who could guide them with what they needed to be doing, and it was very close to the 2010 Census, which was not well-planned, and was about to be a crisis, and so they needed to know what they needed to do. Their first political instinct was to ignore it and say, well, this is Bush's problem, not ours, but we convinced them that that was short- sighted, and by the time the data were released, no matter who planned the Census, it was going to be Obama's census, and he would get the fallout if it fell apart.

[Assistant] What do you do now at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm-hmm.

[Assistant] Do you mind explaining what that is?

[User] When a new President is elected, generally, they create a team to build for them a game plan of what they need to do, and it's really sort of a 90-day what is out there that we don't know about that might cause us problems, what do we need to be doing right away, what are issues that are important, what can be pushed down the road, and they put together a team—for Obama, I think it was around 100 to 150 people. My focus was the Census Bureau. I was not working on the Archives. They wanted someone who understood the policy issues at the Census, and who could guide them with what they needed to be doing, and it was very close to the 2010 Census, which was not well-planned, and was about to be a crisis, and so they needed to know what they needed to do. Their first political instinct was to ignore it and say, well, this is Bush's problem, not ours, but we convinced them that that was short- sighted, and by the time the data were released, no matter who planned the Census, it was going to be Obama's census, and he would get the fallout if it fell apart.

[Assistant] What do you do now at the Archives?

[User] Now I'm a writer, and I write feature articles for Prologue. I'm the COOP bureaucrat, Continuity of Operations, so I go to the meetings where they talk about these issues, and make sure we get the forms filled out that need to be filled out, and bring back to the unit an understanding of what is going on and what we needed to be doing. It gets to be a sensitive issue, as the bi-annual exercises come up, because we design the scenarios that are presented to the senior staff. There's a bomb exploding in downtown Washington—and we can't tell the senior staff that ahead of time, the scenarios are secret until it actually goes live, and so that gets to be a little complicated.

[Assistant] Do you have any stories from working here that you would like to tell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now I'm a writer, and I write feature articles for Prologue. I'm the COOP bureaucrat, Continuity of Operations, so I go to the meetings where they talk about these issues, and make sure we get the forms filled out that need to be filled out, and bring back to the unit an understanding of what is going on and what we needed to be doing. It gets to be a sensitive issue, as the bi-annual exercises come up, because we design the scenarios that are presented to the senior staff. There's a bomb exploding in downtown Washington—and we can't tell the senior staff that ahead of time, the scenarios are secret until it actually goes live, and so that gets to be a little complicated.

[Assistant] Do you have any stories from working here that you would like to tell?

[User] I also do plain language.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Stories, hmm. Oh, gee. I'm sure I do, nothing pops right into my head.

[Assistant] Is there anything from the Archives history that you've worked on that's important?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I also do plain language.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Stories, hmm. Oh, gee. I'm sure I do, nothing pops right into my head.

[Assistant] Is there anything from the Archives history that you've worked on that's important?

[User] Yeah, my first exposure to the Archives on the Hill was when I got to the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, they were in the midst of writing an investigative report on the Archives. There was some fairly serious malfeasance on the part of senior Archives officials in the selection of the First Inspector General, and the Senate had gotten wind of that, and had investigated the issue, and wrote a report, and as a result, the Deputy Archivist was moved out. She was considered to be the person primarily responsible for the problem. I think she ultimately was brought back on. I think it was not that anyone proved that she hadn't done the thing she was alleged to do, but the process by which she was removed, and I think if you look at a lot of press reports, when something happens in an agency, somebody will be blamed for it, and they'll be moved out, and then it turns out two years later, they will end up being reinstated, because their rights were violated. It wasn't done in the proper way, and I don't think she ever came back to the Archives, but she, I think, could have.

[Assistant] You have any other stories like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stories, hmm. Oh, gee. I'm sure I do, nothing pops right into my head.

[Assistant] Is there anything from the Archives history that you've worked on that's important?

[User] Yeah, my first exposure to the Archives on the Hill was when I got to the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, they were in the midst of writing an investigative report on the Archives. There was some fairly serious malfeasance on the part of senior Archives officials in the selection of the First Inspector General, and the Senate had gotten wind of that, and had investigated the issue, and wrote a report, and as a result, the Deputy Archivist was moved out. She was considered to be the person primarily responsible for the problem. I think she ultimately was brought back on. I think it was not that anyone proved that she hadn't done the thing she was alleged to do, but the process by which she was removed, and I think if you look at a lot of press reports, when something happens in an agency, somebody will be blamed for it, and they'll be moved out, and then it turns out two years later, they will end up being reinstated, because their rights were violated. It wasn't done in the proper way, and I don't think she ever came back to the Archives, but she, I think, could have.

[Assistant] You have any other stories like that?

[User] Let's see. Well, what followed that immediately was, it goes back to the issue of electronic records, the Archivist who—and I'm not sure he was onboard during that investigation, but he came onboard shortly afterwards or during, and he was a Bush appointee, and as Bush was leaving office, I think the document was signed on the 19th of January, the Archivist gave the President exclusive control over all of the electronic records from his administration.

[Assistant] Is that allowed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hate that first name.

[Assistant] The date is January the 27th in the year of 1999, and we are ready to roll. Are you ready to go, Scott?

[User] Let’s go, Roy.

[Assistant] All right. Let’s do. You know, you were born here in Colorado. Anything in that background that leant to your becoming an astronaut?

[User] Not that I can think of, except they’re both high country orbit and Colorado mountains.

[Assistant] Well, from there you went down to low country, meaning the Navy. Right down at sea level. Why Navy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s go, Roy.

[Assistant] All right. Let’s do. You know, you were born here in Colorado. Anything in that background that leant to your becoming an astronaut?

[User] Not that I can think of, except they’re both high country orbit and Colorado mountains.

[Assistant] Well, from there you went down to low country, meaning the Navy. Right down at sea level. Why Navy?

[User] Well, I was a naval aviator. But how in the world I got an affection for the deep blue ocean, having grown up in the high country of Colorado, I don’t know. I’ve pondered that question a lot and can’t answer it for you.

[Assistant] There is an evolution there, none the less, though. Because I see in your background: test pilot school, intelligence schools, all of these that led up to your being selected as an astronaut. Can you describe that training and how you think it might have played off into that eventual choice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that I can think of, except they’re both high country orbit and Colorado mountains.

[Assistant] Well, from there you went down to low country, meaning the Navy. Right down at sea level. Why Navy?

[User] Well, I was a naval aviator. But how in the world I got an affection for the deep blue ocean, having grown up in the high country of Colorado, I don’t know. I’ve pondered that question a lot and can’t answer it for you.

[Assistant] There is an evolution there, none the less, though. Because I see in your background: test pilot school, intelligence schools, all of these that led up to your being selected as an astronaut. Can you describe that training and how you think it might have played off into that eventual choice?

[User] Curiosity is a thread that goes through all of my activity. I’ve been curious. I’ve also been frightened by the deep ocean. I wanted, number one, to learn about it; but, number two, I wanted to get rid of what I felt was an unreasoned fear of the deep water. I was also inspired by what [Jacques] Cousteau had done. I saw a use for NASA technology in ocean technology, and first proposed to Cousteau that I come and share technology with his program. He said, “Well, we could use your experience, but you don’t speak the right language and we can’t pay you very much. But,” he said, “if you want to share technology with the ocean, do it with your own United States Navy.” And that’s how it happened.

[Assistant] Well that’s, of course, what happened after you had been an astronaut. So let’s come back to that, if we may, Scott. And right now, let’s go back to the origins and relate, if we can, that naval background and the deep sea—the ocean, if you will—into the oceans of space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. The greatest thrill of my life. Getting to be a part of the crew that would do this unheard of thing, and a thing that would banish so many unknowns. It’s food for curiosity.

[Assistant] Well, you were with a rather distinguished group. Could we take them one-by-one and kind of look at them through your eyes? Let’s say, just for the sake of discussion, John [H.] Glenn [Jr.].

[User] He and I bonded immediately. Who can describe the reasons for bonding? I just have a great deal of respect for him. We had a lot of interests in common. There were three Air Force fellows in the group. We used to kid each other about not caring much for one another, but we all recognized that we were on the same side. This isn’t Cold War time. They were, all of them, highly qualified professionals, and I have the highest respect for every one of them. I was just more bonded with John than any of the others because of common interests.

[Assistant] How about Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom?

[User] A true professional. Didn’t have a lot to say, but when he said something it was always worth listening to.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He and I bonded immediately. Who can describe the reasons for bonding? I just have a great deal of respect for him. We had a lot of interests in common. There were three Air Force fellows in the group. We used to kid each other about not caring much for one another, but we all recognized that we were on the same side. This isn’t Cold War time. They were, all of them, highly qualified professionals, and I have the highest respect for every one of them. I was just more bonded with John than any of the others because of common interests.

[Assistant] How about Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom?

[User] A true professional. Didn’t have a lot to say, but when he said something it was always worth listening to.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?

[User] The joker. He doesn’t like to be called “the joker,” but he is a great high-jinks fellow, you know? And he added a lot of levity to everything we did, and that was very valuable.

[Assistant] How about Deke [Donald K.] Slayton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A true professional. Didn’t have a lot to say, but when he said something it was always worth listening to.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?

[User] The joker. He doesn’t like to be called “the joker,” but he is a great high-jinks fellow, you know? And he added a lot of levity to everything we did, and that was very valuable.

[Assistant] How about Deke [Donald K.] Slayton?

[User] Deke [was] probably the most dedicated, single-minded professional test pilot of the group. He was more dedicated to airplanes in general and how they work, I think, than any other fellow in the group.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The joker. He doesn’t like to be called “the joker,” but he is a great high-jinks fellow, you know? And he added a lot of levity to everything we did, and that was very valuable.

[Assistant] How about Deke [Donald K.] Slayton?

[User] Deke [was] probably the most dedicated, single-minded professional test pilot of the group. He was more dedicated to airplanes in general and how they work, I think, than any other fellow in the group.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.]?

[User] Born leader. Came to the program with a lot of experience and a lot of talent. And it showed up in his choice as the first spaceman in this country.

[Assistant] How about Scott Carpenter? How would you see him fitting into that group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deke [was] probably the most dedicated, single-minded professional test pilot of the group. He was more dedicated to airplanes in general and how they work, I think, than any other fellow in the group.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.]?

[User] Born leader. Came to the program with a lot of experience and a lot of talent. And it showed up in his choice as the first spaceman in this country.

[Assistant] How about Scott Carpenter? How would you see him fitting into that group?

[User] I leave that to others.

[Assistant] Very good. You had early assignments in Mercury. Do you remember what they were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Born leader. Came to the program with a lot of experience and a lot of talent. And it showed up in his choice as the first spaceman in this country.

[Assistant] How about Scott Carpenter? How would you see him fitting into that group?

[User] I leave that to others.

[Assistant] Very good. You had early assignments in Mercury. Do you remember what they were?

[User] Communications and navigation, and that’s as a result of my experience at Patuxent [River, Maryland, Naval Air Station], the Naval Air Test Center, with equipment and techniques that had to do with Earth observation and photography and communications.

[Assistant] Did those specialties pay off for you a little later in the program? Communication? Navigation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I leave that to others.

[Assistant] Very good. You had early assignments in Mercury. Do you remember what they were?

[User] Communications and navigation, and that’s as a result of my experience at Patuxent [River, Maryland, Naval Air Station], the Naval Air Test Center, with equipment and techniques that had to do with Earth observation and photography and communications.

[Assistant] Did those specialties pay off for you a little later in the program? Communication? Navigation?

[User] Well, those sciences, if you will, were the ones that I was directed to follow. So I had a background that was helpful in the tasks that were assigned to me by NASA.

[Assistant] Well, what were some of your early assignments in Mercury?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Communications and navigation, and that’s as a result of my experience at Patuxent [River, Maryland, Naval Air Station], the Naval Air Test Center, with equipment and techniques that had to do with Earth observation and photography and communications.

[Assistant] Did those specialties pay off for you a little later in the program? Communication? Navigation?

[User] Well, those sciences, if you will, were the ones that I was directed to follow. So I had a background that was helpful in the tasks that were assigned to me by NASA.

[Assistant] Well, what were some of your early assignments in Mercury?

[User] Making sure that the communications equipment worked well and the navigation techniques were adequate to the task. These were just the small tasks that I was given to monitor solo, and each of us had certain tasks for which they were responsible. We all had a lot of tasks to do together.

[Assistant] Not the least of which was the assignment of being Capcoms round the world during those early Mercury flights, when it was astronauts could only talk to astronauts. Where were you, for example, during John’s [pause]. Well, let’s start at the beginning with Alan Shepard and then with John Glenn and Gus Grissom, where were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, those sciences, if you will, were the ones that I was directed to follow. So I had a background that was helpful in the tasks that were assigned to me by NASA.

[Assistant] Well, what were some of your early assignments in Mercury?

[User] Making sure that the communications equipment worked well and the navigation techniques were adequate to the task. These were just the small tasks that I was given to monitor solo, and each of us had certain tasks for which they were responsible. We all had a lot of tasks to do together.

[Assistant] Not the least of which was the assignment of being Capcoms round the world during those early Mercury flights, when it was astronauts could only talk to astronauts. Where were you, for example, during John’s [pause]. Well, let’s start at the beginning with Alan Shepard and then with John Glenn and Gus Grissom, where were you?

[User] For Alan’s flight, Wally Schirra and I, in keeping with an old Air Force—Edwards, as a matter of fact—practice of chasing every experimental flight with airplanes. Walt [Walter C.] Williams from Edwards [Air Force Base, California], highly placed in the Administration in those days, thought we should chase Al Shepard’s flight just because it was always done. So Wally Schirra and I were given some Air Force airplanes (F-102s) to chase Al’s flight. We orbited and we couldn’t stay close to the pad, because there were a lot of unknowns and dangers in those days that we didn’t quite know how to cope with. But Wally and I were circling the pad, listening to the count, but at some distance, maybe 3 miles away. And Al took off, going straight up, and Wally and I never saw a thing! You can’t chase a Redstone going straight up in a 102, so all we did is fly circles. And we came down and sort of said to each other, “What happened?”

[Assistant] It’s pretty well known, by now, but let’s go back over the background of where you were for John Glenn’s flight and what you did. It kind of made a little history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, yeah, but I will also tell you that both of these pleas, “Godspeed, John Glenn,” he didn’t hear—and I just recently learned this—until after the launch. I thought he heard them both when I said them, but that wasn’t the way it happened. I couldn’t say the same thing on the Shuttle flight because it’s not a solo flight. So I thought it appropriate to add, “Good luck to the commander and crew of the Shuttle and, once again, Godspeed, John Glenn.” That statement has had endurance that surprises me.

[Assistant] Perhaps with good reason. Well, let’s go back now to your flight. How did you get to fly MA [Mercury Atlas]-7, Aurora [7], instead of Wally Schirra?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] How did you get into that flight?

[User] It was Deke, first of all.

[Assistant] Oh, Deke first. That’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] How did you get into that flight?

[User] It was Deke, first of all.

[Assistant] Oh, Deke first. That’s right.

[User] Deke was assigned to that flight.

[Assistant] Let’s go through that sequence, shall we?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was Deke, first of all.

[Assistant] Oh, Deke first. That’s right.

[User] Deke was assigned to that flight.

[Assistant] Let’s go through that sequence, shall we?

[User] Yeah, okay.

[Assistant] How did you get to fly MA-7? Let’s rephrase the question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deke was assigned to that flight.

[Assistant] Let’s go through that sequence, shall we?

[User] Yeah, okay.

[Assistant] How did you get to fly MA-7? Let’s rephrase the question.

[User] Well, okay. The flight after John’s, which was MA-6, was MA-7; and Deke Slayton was assigned that flight. On the centrifuge during the training period for that flight Deke had an anomaly in his heart which in conventional medical wisdom of that time was considered disqualifying. We recognize now that it was no more serious than a hiccup, but Deke was scratched and he wouldn’t fly again for a long time, until Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project]. It was a destructive thing for Deke. Wally was his backup and by rights should have gotten the flight. But Walt Williams again, I think (I don’t know who made the decision), but it was a NASA decision that since I had had such an intimate relationship with the MA-6, getting John ready to go, that I was better prepared to take the next flight than Wally was, the standby. That was very destructive to Wally, too, and we’ve survived that; but he was angry, and with reason. Anyway, I got the flight. And Wally became not only backup as he had been for Deke, but my backup; and he got the flight following.

[Assistant] And you called the flight, or called the spacecraft, Aurora. What’s in a name? Where’d you get a name like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, okay.

[Assistant] Okay. [telephone rings]

[User] It’s probably [interrupted].

[Assistant] We’ll hold

[User] The machine upstairs will get it in one more ring, I think.

[Assistant]
Yeah. This should— The other machine just picked it up. Okay. Are we still rolling?

We’re still rolling.\n\n [Break]

All right. We’re at a good spot.

Get it all down, okay? And go ahead and go again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s probably [interrupted].

[Assistant] We’ll hold

[User] The machine upstairs will get it in one more ring, I think.

[Assistant]
Yeah. This should— The other machine just picked it up. Okay. Are we still rolling?

We’re still rolling.\n\n [Break]

All right. We’re at a good spot.

Get it all down, okay? And go ahead and go again.

[User] Am I still slouching?

[Assistant] Oh no, you’re sitting up just fine. We’re ready to pick it up again, and we had just reached that point where you said “Chris Kraft and some of his controllers were not happy” and I had said “Scott, you’ll never have a better time than right now to tell your side of that story.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It’s hard to realize that we didn’t know for sure at that time whether or not there were living critters out there at 150 miles’ altitude because John said, “There are fireflies.” He called them that, and we really didn’t know whether something like that existed. That’s a good indicator of the state of our ignorance in many things at that time in the space program. It turned out—as I was stowing equipment, banging the hatch on the side of the capsule just before retrofire—the “fireflies” started flying past the window; and I could make more fly by, by banging the hatch. And it was little pieces of frost in the—illuminated by the Sun, behind me at this time at sunrise; and they were just little ice crystals; and I figured, “Hooray! We know the answer to that question.” It was a moving time for me.

[Assistant] In retrospect, what do you think now as you think back on zero g and spaceflight in general as you experienced it?

[User] You have to realize that my experience with zero g, although transcending and more fun than I can tell you about, was in the light of current spaceflight accomplishments very brief. But it’s the nicest thing that ever happened to me, and I can’t believe that I wouldn’t enjoy it just as much for a more prolonged period. The zero-g sensation and the visual sensation of spaceflight are transcending experiences, and I wish everybody could have them.

[Assistant] You could certainly understand why John wanted to go back up there for the longer flight, can’t you? Would you have taken the same opportunity?

[User] Oh sure. But it was not offered me. That is the fact of the matter. I, as a matter of fact, am questioned frequently about this: Would you do it? And one of the answers is tongue in cheek but it is also partly true: I’m not old enough.

[Assistant] You had plenty of time after landing, when you were down in the ocean. You had plenty of time to think about the mission. And I wonder, what were your thoughts during that period of time when you were waiting to be picked up after your flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All I can tell you is that I hope so, but that’s another question that must be asked others. I tried to do that; but it is difficult, I think, to describe all of the sensations of spaceflight. It was a new concept then. Never before done. People understand it better now because they’ve lived with it all these years. But not then.

[Assistant] You were also the first to propose a neutral buoyancy tank. I can certainly understand that in view of your Navy background; using water to simulate, if you will, zero g. When first you came up with that suggestion, how did NASA receive that idea at first?

[User] Well, I don’t think there was any objection. The idea bore fruit in many, many different ways. It required the expenditure of a lot of money to build a neutral buoyancy simulator, but it has paid off handsomely in training people for EVA [extravehicular activity] and it’s, you know, irreplaceable.

[Assistant] And thoroughly one of the tools of NASA today. Have you had a chance to operate within that neutral buoyancy tank at all in recent years?

[User] No. I was at the tank in Houston, but I didn’t get in the water. But I’ve had experience doing that in the open ocean with Sealab.

[Assistant] I think that kind of brings us right back to where we started some time back. You had described, if you will, your acquaintance and the working relationship with Cousteau. So right now you moved out of the realm of astronaut. Let’s move the transition, first of all, what you did after your flight. It became fairly common knowledge, and I think you were privy to the fact, that you probably would not fly again. Is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t think there was any objection. The idea bore fruit in many, many different ways. It required the expenditure of a lot of money to build a neutral buoyancy simulator, but it has paid off handsomely in training people for EVA [extravehicular activity] and it’s, you know, irreplaceable.

[Assistant] And thoroughly one of the tools of NASA today. Have you had a chance to operate within that neutral buoyancy tank at all in recent years?

[User] No. I was at the tank in Houston, but I didn’t get in the water. But I’ve had experience doing that in the open ocean with Sealab.

[Assistant] I think that kind of brings us right back to where we started some time back. You had described, if you will, your acquaintance and the working relationship with Cousteau. So right now you moved out of the realm of astronaut. Let’s move the transition, first of all, what you did after your flight. It became fairly common knowledge, and I think you were privy to the fact, that you probably would not fly again. Is that right?

[User] Well, you know, not at the time of my choice. I got really fascinated with this idea that I discussed with Cousteau and then with George Bond of transferring technology to the ocean. And I did that, or I tried to do that, with Sealab 1; and then I broke my arm and couldn’t make that dive, but went back to polish that idea off in Sealab 2. And that was another transcending experience for me.

[Assistant] Well, you had several considerations before you left NASA, didn’t you? You had other jobs in the interim there before you left NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was at the tank in Houston, but I didn’t get in the water. But I’ve had experience doing that in the open ocean with Sealab.

[Assistant] I think that kind of brings us right back to where we started some time back. You had described, if you will, your acquaintance and the working relationship with Cousteau. So right now you moved out of the realm of astronaut. Let’s move the transition, first of all, what you did after your flight. It became fairly common knowledge, and I think you were privy to the fact, that you probably would not fly again. Is that right?

[User] Well, you know, not at the time of my choice. I got really fascinated with this idea that I discussed with Cousteau and then with George Bond of transferring technology to the ocean. And I did that, or I tried to do that, with Sealab 1; and then I broke my arm and couldn’t make that dive, but went back to polish that idea off in Sealab 2. And that was another transcending experience for me.

[Assistant] Well, you had several considerations before you left NASA, didn’t you? You had other jobs in the interim there before you left NASA?

[User] Oh yeah, sure, and part of it was in the development of that neutral buoyancy simulator. But I really, by that time, became enamored of the people and the idea involved in living underwater. And that was my new love.

[Assistant] And do you see a relationship between the things that you discovered underwater and the things that you discovered in the ocean of space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, not at the time of my choice. I got really fascinated with this idea that I discussed with Cousteau and then with George Bond of transferring technology to the ocean. And I did that, or I tried to do that, with Sealab 1; and then I broke my arm and couldn’t make that dive, but went back to polish that idea off in Sealab 2. And that was another transcending experience for me.

[Assistant] Well, you had several considerations before you left NASA, didn’t you? You had other jobs in the interim there before you left NASA?

[User] Oh yeah, sure, and part of it was in the development of that neutral buoyancy simulator. But I really, by that time, became enamored of the people and the idea involved in living underwater. And that was my new love.

[Assistant] And do you see a relationship between the things that you discovered underwater and the things that you discovered in the ocean of space?

[User] There are many, many similarities in the training and in the environment [of], quote, “isolation and confinement.” And the people—the people are similar, although Navy and civilian deep-sea divers are not as highly educated by and large as the heroic spacemen are, they are the greatest bunch of unsung heroes I’ve ever known. And the other thing that gives me an affection for the whole idea, and the people and the science, is the fact that these Navy and civilian divers put their lives on the line for the benefit of new science and for, at that time, national security just as surely as the heroic spacemen do; but nobody cares a whit about these divers. Nobody even notices what they do.

[Assistant] Well, perhaps the Navy should do oral histories as NASA’s doing with spaceflight. Since we are dealing with spaceflight, though, let’s deal with other astronauts after the Mercury Seven group. Did you have a working relationship with the crews that came after that? And, if so, [telephone rings] once the telephone stops ringing, we’ll pick up again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, sure, and part of it was in the development of that neutral buoyancy simulator. But I really, by that time, became enamored of the people and the idea involved in living underwater. And that was my new love.

[Assistant] And do you see a relationship between the things that you discovered underwater and the things that you discovered in the ocean of space?

[User] There are many, many similarities in the training and in the environment [of], quote, “isolation and confinement.” And the people—the people are similar, although Navy and civilian deep-sea divers are not as highly educated by and large as the heroic spacemen are, they are the greatest bunch of unsung heroes I’ve ever known. And the other thing that gives me an affection for the whole idea, and the people and the science, is the fact that these Navy and civilian divers put their lives on the line for the benefit of new science and for, at that time, national security just as surely as the heroic spacemen do; but nobody cares a whit about these divers. Nobody even notices what they do.

[Assistant] Well, perhaps the Navy should do oral histories as NASA’s doing with spaceflight. Since we are dealing with spaceflight, though, let’s deal with other astronauts after the Mercury Seven group. Did you have a working relationship with the crews that came after that? And, if so, [telephone rings] once the telephone stops ringing, we’ll pick up again.

[User] Is it ringing again?

[Assistant]
It just rang. I think you have to wait until your answering machine kicks in.

No, it wasn’t [interrupted].

Was that somebody’s cell phone?

That’s what it sounds like.

It sounded like it. It’s off. All right. Are we clear to go ahead? Are we rolling? We’re at speed? All right, I was asking let’s get back on a space track, because this is primarily obviously for NASA at Johnson Space Center, oral histories there. And I was asking if you had met—working acquaintance with any of the other astronauts after the Mercury Seven.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is it ringing again?

[Assistant]
It just rang. I think you have to wait until your answering machine kicks in.

No, it wasn’t [interrupted].

Was that somebody’s cell phone?

That’s what it sounds like.

It sounded like it. It’s off. All right. Are we clear to go ahead? Are we rolling? We’re at speed? All right, I was asking let’s get back on a space track, because this is primarily obviously for NASA at Johnson Space Center, oral histories there. And I was asking if you had met—working acquaintance with any of the other astronauts after the Mercury Seven.

[User] Sure; and they’re a highly respectable group, all of them. I was—you know, I really feel privileged to know these fellows as well as I did. I had a particular affection for Ed [Edward H.] White [II], and I hated to see what happened. He was the prince of the new guys. Dave [David R.] Scott was a favorite of mine. But they’re all highly accomplished, dedicated fellows that I was honored to know.

[Assistant] Let’s take a look at some of the other people of that era and ask for your recollections. Pad leader Guenter Wendt. What do you remember?

[User] Yeah, Guenter Wendt. He’s a great, great fellow. He was probably more closely associated with every flight than any other fellow on the ground—except for Joe [Joseph W.] Schmitt, who was the suit man. Two dedicated, fine fellows that I remember with great fondness.

[Assistant] When you got buttoned in, those were the fellows that used to see you as they buttoned you in, weren’t they? The last human beings. How about others like, oh, [Manned Spacecraft] Center Director Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure; and they’re a highly respectable group, all of them. I was—you know, I really feel privileged to know these fellows as well as I did. I had a particular affection for Ed [Edward H.] White [II], and I hated to see what happened. He was the prince of the new guys. Dave [David R.] Scott was a favorite of mine. But they’re all highly accomplished, dedicated fellows that I was honored to know.

[Assistant] Let’s take a look at some of the other people of that era and ask for your recollections. Pad leader Guenter Wendt. What do you remember?

[User] Yeah, Guenter Wendt. He’s a great, great fellow. He was probably more closely associated with every flight than any other fellow on the ground—except for Joe [Joseph W.] Schmitt, who was the suit man. Two dedicated, fine fellows that I remember with great fondness.

[Assistant] When you got buttoned in, those were the fellows that used to see you as they buttoned you in, weren’t they? The last human beings. How about others like, oh, [Manned Spacecraft] Center Director Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth?

[User] Yeah, he was, in his own words, he was “the maestro.” I don’t know that he used “maestro,” but he did say that his job at NASA was like conducting an orchestra; and that’s what he did. He was a bright, dedicated man for whom I also have great respect.

[Assistant] Speaking of conducting an orchestra, there was [NASA Administrator] Jim [James E.] Webb.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Guenter Wendt. He’s a great, great fellow. He was probably more closely associated with every flight than any other fellow on the ground—except for Joe [Joseph W.] Schmitt, who was the suit man. Two dedicated, fine fellows that I remember with great fondness.

[Assistant] When you got buttoned in, those were the fellows that used to see you as they buttoned you in, weren’t they? The last human beings. How about others like, oh, [Manned Spacecraft] Center Director Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth?

[User] Yeah, he was, in his own words, he was “the maestro.” I don’t know that he used “maestro,” but he did say that his job at NASA was like conducting an orchestra; and that’s what he did. He was a bright, dedicated man for whom I also have great respect.

[Assistant] Speaking of conducting an orchestra, there was [NASA Administrator] Jim [James E.] Webb.

[User] Yeah. Instrumental in the early days, he was very effective at his position in Washington.

[Assistant] As the Administrator. [doorbell rings] There’s somebody at the door.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he was, in his own words, he was “the maestro.” I don’t know that he used “maestro,” but he did say that his job at NASA was like conducting an orchestra; and that’s what he did. He was a bright, dedicated man for whom I also have great respect.

[Assistant] Speaking of conducting an orchestra, there was [NASA Administrator] Jim [James E.] Webb.

[User] Yeah. Instrumental in the early days, he was very effective at his position in Washington.

[Assistant] As the Administrator. [doorbell rings] There’s somebody at the door.

[User] That is probably David [interrupted].\n\n [Break]

[Assistant]
Recording.

We’re asking for your recollections of people, and we had just gotten to Jim Webb, the Administrator of NASA during that key period in time. What do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Instrumental in the early days, he was very effective at his position in Washington.

[Assistant] As the Administrator. [doorbell rings] There’s somebody at the door.

[User] That is probably David [interrupted].\n\n [Break]

[Assistant]
Recording.

We’re asking for your recollections of people, and we had just gotten to Jim Webb, the Administrator of NASA during that key period in time. What do you remember?

[User] I remember a very effective representative for NASA in Washington. He did everything required, and then some.

[Assistant] And how about Chris Kraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is probably David [interrupted].\n\n [Break]

[Assistant]
Recording.

We’re asking for your recollections of people, and we had just gotten to Jim Webb, the Administrator of NASA during that key period in time. What do you remember?

[User] I remember a very effective representative for NASA in Washington. He did everything required, and then some.

[Assistant] And how about Chris Kraft?

[User] Chris was effective as Mission Director, and he was Control Center boss for a long time. And he was dedicated and served NASA for a long time in the Control Center; and he even became Director of Manned Spacecraft Center for a while, I think, later.

[Assistant] Another of the guiding lights at that time was Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews. Do you remember Chuck?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember a very effective representative for NASA in Washington. He did everything required, and then some.

[Assistant] And how about Chris Kraft?

[User] Chris was effective as Mission Director, and he was Control Center boss for a long time. And he was dedicated and served NASA for a long time in the Control Center; and he even became Director of Manned Spacecraft Center for a while, I think, later.

[Assistant] Another of the guiding lights at that time was Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews. Do you remember Chuck?

[User] Not as well as Chris [interrupted].

[Assistant] He moved into the Gemini Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chris was effective as Mission Director, and he was Control Center boss for a long time. And he was dedicated and served NASA for a long time in the Control Center; and he even became Director of Manned Spacecraft Center for a while, I think, later.

[Assistant] Another of the guiding lights at that time was Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews. Do you remember Chuck?

[User] Not as well as Chris [interrupted].

[Assistant] He moved into the Gemini Program.

[User] And some of these other fellows you’ve mentioned.

[Assistant] He was aboard at the time of Mercury, but basically he became Mr. Gemini. All right. Let’s move on. What are some of your favorite anecdotes? Things that you might remember during the years that you spent in the space program? Strangest, funniest, that kind of thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as well as Chris [interrupted].

[Assistant] He moved into the Gemini Program.

[User] And some of these other fellows you’ve mentioned.

[Assistant] He was aboard at the time of Mercury, but basically he became Mr. Gemini. All right. Let’s move on. What are some of your favorite anecdotes? Things that you might remember during the years that you spent in the space program? Strangest, funniest, that kind of thing.

[User] They’re all unmentionable.

[Assistant] Every one? There must be one that you can dredge out of your memory that can be retold.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And some of these other fellows you’ve mentioned.

[Assistant] He was aboard at the time of Mercury, but basically he became Mr. Gemini. All right. Let’s move on. What are some of your favorite anecdotes? Things that you might remember during the years that you spent in the space program? Strangest, funniest, that kind of thing.

[User] They’re all unmentionable.

[Assistant] Every one? There must be one that you can dredge out of your memory that can be retold.

[User] No, not seriously. Well, there was one episode when John and I were racing in his convertible for Friendship Airport. We were late for the airplane going, I think, to St. Louis; and we were going just barely to have time to race through the airport and catch an airplane. And I was getting the tickets out, ready to turn them in, and it occurred to me that I could surprise John a little bit by making him think that the tickets flew out of the car in the slipstream. So I let the envelopes go by. He was driving furiously down the road, trying to make the airplane; and I told him, “The tickets had just blown away.” On that freeway, there’s no way to turn around, so we had lost the airplane. And he took it very well. He laughed about it, and [said] we’d take another airplane. But then I told him, “It was just the envelopes that I lost” and that we could proceed to the airport, and he continued to laugh. But I remember that his laugh had a different note when he knew we were still able to make the airplane. We were always playing jokes on each other. They would go—I could go on forever with that.

[Assistant] Well, we don’t have forever, but if you’d like to try one more we’d be delighted to hear it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really didn’t feel strongly about that decision. It was an exciting move. Houston seemed like a good place to be, better than Newport News [Virginia]. And, you know, since the decision was made without any input from me, I went along with it, happily, just like I think everybody else did.

[Assistant] What was it like, once you’d made the move? What was it like living in the Clear Lake community? Now, that’s both from the personal and a professional point of view.

[User] Yeah well, it turned out to be a very good decision. The Houston community was—they welcomed us with open arms. We developed a great affection for the country and for the people. I didn’t care for the flat land too much. I didn’t care for the temperature and the humidity. I remember making fun of that territory when I would take my family—bring them here to Vale, as a matter of fact—to ski in those days. It was a 2-day car trip. One and three-quarters of those days was all in Texas. It’s all flat land. It gets boring, but that’s okay. Houston is a long, long way away from everyplace else; but it’s got—it’s a fascinating place that I still like.

[Assistant] And, of course, the story of the Manned Spacecraft Center goes without saying. It’s had a tremendous history, and probably has a tremendous future, wouldn’t you think?

[User] That is up to the people of this country. We need, I think, a goal other than the International Space Station. We need to get cracking on a manned flight to Mars, because that is going to capture the interest and the support and the imagination of the people of this country who pay for spaceflight. Without that, Houston can dissolve. We need to go to Mars.

[Assistant] You don’t think the International Space Station is a good interim step?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah well, it turned out to be a very good decision. The Houston community was—they welcomed us with open arms. We developed a great affection for the country and for the people. I didn’t care for the flat land too much. I didn’t care for the temperature and the humidity. I remember making fun of that territory when I would take my family—bring them here to Vale, as a matter of fact—to ski in those days. It was a 2-day car trip. One and three-quarters of those days was all in Texas. It’s all flat land. It gets boring, but that’s okay. Houston is a long, long way away from everyplace else; but it’s got—it’s a fascinating place that I still like.

[Assistant] And, of course, the story of the Manned Spacecraft Center goes without saying. It’s had a tremendous history, and probably has a tremendous future, wouldn’t you think?

[User] That is up to the people of this country. We need, I think, a goal other than the International Space Station. We need to get cracking on a manned flight to Mars, because that is going to capture the interest and the support and the imagination of the people of this country who pay for spaceflight. Without that, Houston can dissolve. We need to go to Mars.

[Assistant] You don’t think the International Space Station is a good interim step?

[User] I think it is, but I think it is only interim. We need something bigger and better.

[Assistant] Well, let’s qualify that. How do you really see the International Space Station right now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is up to the people of this country. We need, I think, a goal other than the International Space Station. We need to get cracking on a manned flight to Mars, because that is going to capture the interest and the support and the imagination of the people of this country who pay for spaceflight. Without that, Houston can dissolve. We need to go to Mars.

[Assistant] You don’t think the International Space Station is a good interim step?

[User] I think it is, but I think it is only interim. We need something bigger and better.

[Assistant] Well, let’s qualify that. How do you really see the International Space Station right now?

[User] As a valuable, current pursuit; but it needs to be followed by things that demonstrate more vision.

[Assistant] Is the technology ready to tackle Mars as a goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it is, but I think it is only interim. We need something bigger and better.

[Assistant] Well, let’s qualify that. How do you really see the International Space Station right now?

[User] As a valuable, current pursuit; but it needs to be followed by things that demonstrate more vision.

[Assistant] Is the technology ready to tackle Mars as a goal?

[User] Yes, sir.

[Assistant] Why do you say that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a valuable, current pursuit; but it needs to be followed by things that demonstrate more vision.

[Assistant] Is the technology ready to tackle Mars as a goal?

[User] Yes, sir.

[Assistant] Why do you say that?

[User] Because it’s a fact. We know how to do that. We just don’t know how to get the money. We don’t know how to get the support that will provide the money. The technical problems, if we haven’t solved them already, they’re easily solved in the near future.

[Assistant] Well, I think that answers my last question, which is where you’d like to see the nation go in space. Unless there’s something else beyond that, that I’m not seeing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, sir.

[Assistant] Why do you say that?

[User] Because it’s a fact. We know how to do that. We just don’t know how to get the money. We don’t know how to get the support that will provide the money. The technical problems, if we haven’t solved them already, they’re easily solved in the near future.

[Assistant] Well, I think that answers my last question, which is where you’d like to see the nation go in space. Unless there’s something else beyond that, that I’m not seeing.

[User] Oh sure. Mars is interim. But for now, that’s a goal that NASA and the country and the planet can live with enthusiastically.

[Assistant] Well you know, Scott, we covered just about all the basic questions that I had. But it occurs to me that I ought to give you the chance to say anything that you really want to say. Is there anything that you’d like to bring into this discussion, realizing that you’re writing oral history for the historians and for Public Affairs both. Realizing that, is there anything that you’d like to bring in this discussion that I haven’t given you the chance to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it’s a fact. We know how to do that. We just don’t know how to get the money. We don’t know how to get the support that will provide the money. The technical problems, if we haven’t solved them already, they’re easily solved in the near future.

[Assistant] Well, I think that answers my last question, which is where you’d like to see the nation go in space. Unless there’s something else beyond that, that I’m not seeing.

[User] Oh sure. Mars is interim. But for now, that’s a goal that NASA and the country and the planet can live with enthusiastically.

[Assistant] Well you know, Scott, we covered just about all the basic questions that I had. But it occurs to me that I ought to give you the chance to say anything that you really want to say. Is there anything that you’d like to bring into this discussion, realizing that you’re writing oral history for the historians and for Public Affairs both. Realizing that, is there anything that you’d like to bring in this discussion that I haven’t given you the chance to talk about?

[User] Only that I feel I have been a very, very, fortunate man to have lived at the time when so many unknowns can be made knowns; and that’s happened in this century. And that pleases me probably more than anything else, because I think it is fair to say that I have been (and remain) a very curious person. And I’ve had a lot of satisfied curiosity in my time.

[Assistant] You’ve had the chance, really, to live out your curiosity, haven’t you? To find out at least a few of the answers you were looking for.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh sure. Mars is interim. But for now, that’s a goal that NASA and the country and the planet can live with enthusiastically.

[Assistant] Well you know, Scott, we covered just about all the basic questions that I had. But it occurs to me that I ought to give you the chance to say anything that you really want to say. Is there anything that you’d like to bring into this discussion, realizing that you’re writing oral history for the historians and for Public Affairs both. Realizing that, is there anything that you’d like to bring in this discussion that I haven’t given you the chance to talk about?

[User] Only that I feel I have been a very, very, fortunate man to have lived at the time when so many unknowns can be made knowns; and that’s happened in this century. And that pleases me probably more than anything else, because I think it is fair to say that I have been (and remain) a very curious person. And I’ve had a lot of satisfied curiosity in my time.

[Assistant] You’ve had the chance, really, to live out your curiosity, haven’t you? To find out at least a few of the answers you were looking for.

[User] Yep. And satisfying curiosity ranks number two in my book behind conquering of fear.

[Assistant] Would you recommend the profession of astronauts to young people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only that I feel I have been a very, very, fortunate man to have lived at the time when so many unknowns can be made knowns; and that’s happened in this century. And that pleases me probably more than anything else, because I think it is fair to say that I have been (and remain) a very curious person. And I’ve had a lot of satisfied curiosity in my time.

[Assistant] You’ve had the chance, really, to live out your curiosity, haven’t you? To find out at least a few of the answers you were looking for.

[User] Yep. And satisfying curiosity ranks number two in my book behind conquering of fear.

[Assistant] Would you recommend the profession of astronauts to young people?

[User] Oh, of course. But so would I recommend learning to be a concert pianist. There are thousands of challenges, and it’s got to be to each his own. Every—every child has got to seek his own destiny. All I can say is that I have had a great time seeking my own.

[Assistant]
Debbie, I’ve finished with my list of questions. Do you have anything you think we should add to this? Have we covered the bases from your point of view?

Very, very thorough. I don’t know if you’ve really mentioned anything, though, about the future of NASA, you know, and all the underwater—

The underwater things? Well, let’s give that a shot, shall we? You’re talking now NASA’s future under water or the Navy’s? Which? Are we talking Navy—? Well, let’s just cover the broad field of where the country may be going undersea. That’s a much broader question; it allows you the leeway to maneuver any direction that you see fit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I spent, of course, 4 years at the Academy. In my term paper—my first class term paper—I wrote on the development of the liquid fuel rocket, which by the way I just donated to—just last year to the Academy. And I was one of the first 50—because I was so much interested in going back into aviation, that they selected 50 people to teach at the Academy after I graduated, teach the plebes coming in. And then that September, I was transferred down to Pensacola [Florida].

[Assistant] And what kind of planes did you fly?

[User] Well, in those days we flew SNJs [SNJ-6\n\n Texan\n\n ], which was the basic trainer, all the way up through landing on a carrier with SNJs. And we did formation and some night flying and, you know, basic training. And then I was transferred from there to Kingsville [Texas], actually Corpus Christi [Texas], then Kingsville, and did my instrument training and my advanced training was in a modern airplane called the\n\n Hellcat\n\n , the F6Fs. And then I got my wings and then I was selected to go back into jet training. Now in those days, jet training was, you know, the epitome of everything—

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] —I mean, and not too many people were in it. So, I was very, very lucky.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy flying jets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in those days we flew SNJs [SNJ-6\n\n Texan\n\n ], which was the basic trainer, all the way up through landing on a carrier with SNJs. And we did formation and some night flying and, you know, basic training. And then I was transferred from there to Kingsville [Texas], actually Corpus Christi [Texas], then Kingsville, and did my instrument training and my advanced training was in a modern airplane called the\n\n Hellcat\n\n , the F6Fs. And then I got my wings and then I was selected to go back into jet training. Now in those days, jet training was, you know, the epitome of everything—

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] —I mean, and not too many people were in it. So, I was very, very lucky.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy flying jets?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. Jets were—I still enjoy flying jets if I can get my hand on one. But I—after I got through training, my first assignment was to a squadron called VC-3. And when I got out there, I found out it was a night fighting—night fighter squadron. They sent teams out because, in those days, we didn’t fly whole squadrons off of aircraft carriers. And I told the skipper, I said, “You know, I’m having a little trouble flying in the daytime yet. Yet you want me to go out at night!” But it was great training, a great experience, and I learned an awful lot.

[Assistant] Anything quite compare to that first landing—night landing on a carrier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —I mean, and not too many people were in it. So, I was very, very lucky.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy flying jets?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. Jets were—I still enjoy flying jets if I can get my hand on one. But I—after I got through training, my first assignment was to a squadron called VC-3. And when I got out there, I found out it was a night fighting—night fighter squadron. They sent teams out because, in those days, we didn’t fly whole squadrons off of aircraft carriers. And I told the skipper, I said, “You know, I’m having a little trouble flying in the daytime yet. Yet you want me to go out at night!” But it was great training, a great experience, and I learned an awful lot.

[Assistant] Anything quite compare to that first landing—night landing on a carrier?

[User] There is nothing! You know, night flying off carriers separates the men from the boys, as they—the takeoff, of course, into a black void with no horizon and then coming in at night. And in those days, we didn’t have modern techniques like a mirror system and, you know, almost like a GCA [ground controlled approach]. You had to come in low, and you had a guy with paddles and a lighted suit. That was how we did it in those days.

[Assistant] So, at what point did you hear about NASA trying to select people to become astronauts and decide, “Hey, I want to do that!”?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a matter of fact, on Gemini XII [Edwin E.] Buzz Aldrin [Jr.] had the same thing that I had. And we were forced—but you know, there’s a unique aspect of that physical. I got back to the squadron—and this is not too well known—I got back to the squadron and I got a set of orders to go back out to Wright-Patterson! Now my skipper said, “These orders are probably not correct. Maybe they don’t know what the choice—” I said, “Listen, I’m taking them!” I went out to Wright-Patterson and they were sort of expecting me.\n\n I got out there the night before. The people that were all getting together at the BOQ [bachelor officer’s quarters] said, “Oh yes, we got 7 people. And you’re number 7.” I said, “Oh, I’m great!” The next morning we all went down to breakfast to get ready to start our physical, and a fellow walked in and said, “Say, I’m sorry I’m late. I just came in from Edwards [Air Force Base]. My name is [Virgil I.] Gus Grissom.” And he was number 7 and, of course, I wasn’t supposed to be there. And so—and pretty soon NASA hierarchy found out about it. I was packing my bags, going back to the squadron!

[Assistant] How disappointed were you when you didn’t make that first cut?

[User] Very, very much disappointed. Because you see, I was interested in rockets and things like that way back as a high school kid. And I, you know—I didn’t make it.

[Assistant] There was no indication, past that original 7, that they were ever going to find any more guys, was there, at that time?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you know there was a second chance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They—no one actually knew how far NASA would go or whether man in space—

[Assistant] Right.

[User] —was a possibility—

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] —or not. And so, you’re absolutely right. But that was something I always wanted to do.

[Assistant] How long did it take you from that disappointment to get back into the loop and get rid of the liver problem and—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —was a possibility—

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] —or not. And so, you’re absolutely right. But that was something I always wanted to do.

[Assistant] How long did it take you from that disappointment to get back into the loop and get rid of the liver problem and—?

[User] Well, I got back to the squadron. Got transferred down to Oceana [Virginia]. And I was going through, you know, training people at this time. I was an instructor. And in\n\n Aviation Week\n\n , there was a little article: “NASA Wants To Select Some More Astronauts.” And so, before I knew it, the Navy called me down again and said, “Do you want to be in another selection?” They didn’t know that I was kicked out because of a physical. And I said, “Sure.” And so, I put my name in again, and I was selected to—again to go for the physical. This time at Brooks Air Force Base [Texas]. Air Force physical. Much more practical. Much more, you know, looking at what’s wrong and what’s right. And I had no problems passing it. And that’s how I got selected to the second group.

[Assistant] When you first went for a selection to the original astronaut corps, nobody knew what an astronaut was. The second time you went, they were the biggest heroes in the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I got back to the squadron. Got transferred down to Oceana [Virginia]. And I was going through, you know, training people at this time. I was an instructor. And in\n\n Aviation Week\n\n , there was a little article: “NASA Wants To Select Some More Astronauts.” And so, before I knew it, the Navy called me down again and said, “Do you want to be in another selection?” They didn’t know that I was kicked out because of a physical. And I said, “Sure.” And so, I put my name in again, and I was selected to—again to go for the physical. This time at Brooks Air Force Base [Texas]. Air Force physical. Much more practical. Much more, you know, looking at what’s wrong and what’s right. And I had no problems passing it. And that’s how I got selected to the second group.

[Assistant] When you first went for a selection to the original astronaut corps, nobody knew what an astronaut was. The second time you went, they were the biggest heroes in the world.

[User] Well, that’s true. Yes. I can recall very vividly the very first time we went, after we had our interviews in Washington [D.C.] at the old Dolly Madison House. We all gathered back at a hotel room, and we were talking about it. Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was there because, you know, Wally and I were in the same class. Al Shepard was there. And Wally was saying, “You know, I don’t know if I want to get in this program or not. You know, I’m—to go into some wacky program when I should be going up the ladder in naval aviation—”

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] “—in, you know, Navy hierarchy.” And, of course, now I look back on it again. It was really something.

[Assistant] How did the Original 7 accept the next group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s true. Yes. I can recall very vividly the very first time we went, after we had our interviews in Washington [D.C.] at the old Dolly Madison House. We all gathered back at a hotel room, and we were talking about it. Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was there because, you know, Wally and I were in the same class. Al Shepard was there. And Wally was saying, “You know, I don’t know if I want to get in this program or not. You know, I’m—to go into some wacky program when I should be going up the ladder in naval aviation—”

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] “—in, you know, Navy hierarchy.” And, of course, now I look back on it again. It was really something.

[Assistant] How did the Original 7 accept the next group?

[User] Very cool at first. I mean, you know these were the days when, I guess, there was this—the\n\n Life\n\n /World Book contract, you know, and all that sort of stuff. And they were, you know, they were pretty high on the totem pole; they were muckety-mucks. They were well known and everything like that. And the nine of us walk in there. But they warmed up after a while. And pretty soon, after a lot of negotiations, we all got on the same bandwagon with regards to these personal stories type things. But—

[Assistant] Did you get one of those Corvettes to run around town in and all that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “—in, you know, Navy hierarchy.” And, of course, now I look back on it again. It was really something.

[Assistant] How did the Original 7 accept the next group?

[User] Very cool at first. I mean, you know these were the days when, I guess, there was this—the\n\n Life\n\n /World Book contract, you know, and all that sort of stuff. And they were, you know, they were pretty high on the totem pole; they were muckety-mucks. They were well known and everything like that. And the nine of us walk in there. But they warmed up after a while. And pretty soon, after a lot of negotiations, we all got on the same bandwagon with regards to these personal stories type things. But—

[Assistant] Did you get one of those Corvettes to run around town in and all that sort of thing?

[User] After a while, yeah! It was not bad. We’d buy the one wholesale, I think, and then we’d drive it for 6 months then we could trade it in and get another one and trade it in. I guess I went through about three Corvettes during my whole period, about the time was there. I remember Pete [Charles C. Conrad, Jr.] and I lived at Ellington Air Force Base. Our wives were still—Jane was in California, and my wife Marilyn was in—in Virginia Beach. And he and I shared a BOQ room; and I remember when he got that Corvette. He had the top in the room, and he was driving this Corvette. I just—what I—the car I got was just an old station wagon. You see, I had a family and I needed a station wagon and that’s what I got.

[Assistant] What—how did your life change when you became an astronaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Ron, we got in the Gemini Program and started learning all about the spacecraft itself. But my first really assignment was as backup to Gemini IV, that was [James A.] McDivitt and Ed [Edward H.] White [II]. And Frank Borman and I were the backup to that flight. And so, we were training for that one. It’s kind of interesting. I met Ed White, and I didn’t know it until that Gemini. One time we were down at the Cape talking, and he was a plebe at West Point and I was a plebe at the Naval Academy and we traded cufflinks. And then we disappeared. And, of course, it was years and years later that we’re sitting down at the Cape, having breakfast, when he brings up the story. And I said, “That was me!” You know, it’s strange how we—our lives crossed and then disappeared for a while.

[Assistant] Ed White’s job on that flight was to do an EVA [extravehicular activity].

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That was a very big deal at that time.

[User] Yes, it was. And one of our jobs, we had what we called an air-bearing trainer. And we had that little like a squirt gun that we would use to fire our way around and try to do something on that. It was the initial attempt at EVA work. And Ed was out for a while, but it was not until later on that we really found out that we had a lot of problems with EVA.

[Assistant] How did you train for a spacewalk? How did you and White train for that first thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That was a very big deal at that time.

[User] Yes, it was. And one of our jobs, we had what we called an air-bearing trainer. And we had that little like a squirt gun that we would use to fire our way around and try to do something on that. It was the initial attempt at EVA work. And Ed was out for a while, but it was not until later on that we really found out that we had a lot of problems with EVA.

[Assistant] How did you train for a spacewalk? How did you and White train for that first thing?

[User] Well, we, of course—we got in the suits. We had this air-bearing trainer, which is only two-dimensional. You’re on sort of a—an air—you’re on a platform that is, you know, held up by air; and then you can shoot this little gun. It’s like two little jets and try to maneuver yourself. But I have to tell you, quite honestly, it really wasn’t any good. I mean, it was the best thing they could do at the time; and it was not until later on, in Gemini XII, that we learned what to do.

[Assistant] So, the mission takes off. What did you do once it left the ground and he’s up there doing that? What was your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. And one of our jobs, we had what we called an air-bearing trainer. And we had that little like a squirt gun that we would use to fire our way around and try to do something on that. It was the initial attempt at EVA work. And Ed was out for a while, but it was not until later on that we really found out that we had a lot of problems with EVA.

[Assistant] How did you train for a spacewalk? How did you and White train for that first thing?

[User] Well, we, of course—we got in the suits. We had this air-bearing trainer, which is only two-dimensional. You’re on sort of a—an air—you’re on a platform that is, you know, held up by air; and then you can shoot this little gun. It’s like two little jets and try to maneuver yourself. But I have to tell you, quite honestly, it really wasn’t any good. I mean, it was the best thing they could do at the time; and it was not until later on, in Gemini XII, that we learned what to do.

[Assistant] So, the mission takes off. What did you do once it left the ground and he’s up there doing that? What was your job?

[User] Well, I was down at the Cape watching the launch. And then I flew back and was in the Control Center, you know, when he was doing all his work.

[Assistant] It’s been a long time—reasonably long time—since you got here. You ready to fly? You ready to go yourself now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was down at the Cape watching the launch. And then I flew back and was in the Control Center, you know, when he was doing all his work.

[Assistant] It’s been a long time—reasonably long time—since you got here. You ready to fly? You ready to go yourself now?

[User] Oh yes. I got here in October of ’62 and that went up in, oh, ’64 or something like that—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —and—

[Assistant] 2, 3 years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —and—

[Assistant] 2, 3 years.

[User] —yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then my first flight wasn’t until December of ’65.

[Assistant] So, you and Frank Borman get that first flight. Tell me about how you felt when they told you, you were going to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then my first flight wasn’t until December of ’65.

[Assistant] So, you and Frank Borman get that first flight. Tell me about how you felt when they told you, you were going to go.

[User] Well, it’s kind of interesting. Of course, Frank and I were about the same rank and everything like that. But he got, you know, Air Force; and he got to be commander of it. And that’s fine. But it was a 2-week mission. It was a medical flight, as a matter of fact. And you know, 2 weeks with Frank Borman anyplace is a challenge! But this flight, we trained very hard. We had different types of suits. And these were sort of get-me-down suits that we could—you didn’t EVAs in them. You couldn’t get outside. You should not open up the hatch. But, the very first takeoff was almost like it flying us for a while. We got used to it—to pretty good, you know, pretty fast we were able to get the idea of it. And I—the spacecraft is very tight. So, I didn’t feel too nauseous at all; it was pretty good. But the suits were very hot, sweaty, and bulky. And they didn’t want us to take off our suits. These were the old days when they were very worried about leaks in spacecraft or something like that. Well, we knew the spacecraft wasn’t leaking.

[Assistant] One of you had to keep a suit on at all times, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s not easy. But you have to remember that you work so long—I was there 3 years—for a spaceflight, so I’d go up with just about anybody. And Frank and I were, you know, just this close together. And you get to know each other quite well.

[Assistant] Yes!

[User] I mean it was something. As a matter of fact, Frank went, I think, 9 days without having to go to the bathroom.

[Assistant] 9 days?

[User] And he said, “Jim, this is it.” I said, “Frank, you only have 5 more days left to go here.”

[Assistant] What—how was space food in those days? Because I want to get back to space food a little bit later on. But how was it then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean it was something. As a matter of fact, Frank went, I think, 9 days without having to go to the bathroom.

[Assistant] 9 days?

[User] And he said, “Jim, this is it.” I said, “Frank, you only have 5 more days left to go here.”

[Assistant] What—how was space food in those days? Because I want to get back to space food a little bit later on. But how was it then?

[User] Strictly freeze-dried. And these little bite-size sandwiches had wax over them, because everybody thought that they needed wax to keep the produce—and the wax would coat the roof of your mouth, and it’d taste awful. I think one of the best things they had onboard in those days were bacon bits. They would have a little square of bacon, and they would squeeze—after they, you know, cooked and everything, they would squeeze it down. And that was very tasty. Then they had—you put water into various freeze-dried food. Much like campers have these days, but you couldn’t heat it. It was luke-cool water. But it kept us alive for 2 weeks.

[Assistant] Looking back on it now, all of that seemed very primitive. But at that time, it was state of the art.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he said, “Jim, this is it.” I said, “Frank, you only have 5 more days left to go here.”

[Assistant] What—how was space food in those days? Because I want to get back to space food a little bit later on. But how was it then?

[User] Strictly freeze-dried. And these little bite-size sandwiches had wax over them, because everybody thought that they needed wax to keep the produce—and the wax would coat the roof of your mouth, and it’d taste awful. I think one of the best things they had onboard in those days were bacon bits. They would have a little square of bacon, and they would squeeze—after they, you know, cooked and everything, they would squeeze it down. And that was very tasty. Then they had—you put water into various freeze-dried food. Much like campers have these days, but you couldn’t heat it. It was luke-cool water. But it kept us alive for 2 weeks.

[Assistant] Looking back on it now, all of that seemed very primitive. But at that time, it was state of the art.

[User] That’s right. And when I look back on how ultra, ultra conservative they were. For instance, John [W.] Young got in such a flap by taking a sandwich up on a 3½ hour or 4 hour flight. Even if it was—it had, you know, poison in it, he probably would’ve lasted for the whole flight! And now, of course, things are entirely different. And then, you know, now—I know we—they were afraid of anything floating around. But now we found out that if the food is thick enough, you can eat it with a spoon.

[Assistant] When you came back from Gemini VII, what had NASA learned from these two experimental guinea pigs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —he was cool. The second time up there, though, they did. And they came up. I guess we were up there 11 or 12 days by that time. And you could see them coming up. They—we—they came up at night. And we had a blinking light on and I—we could see the jets firing as they came up. We were like this, and they were coming up just like this. And finally, you know, we all rendezvoused. We stayed together. We each took turns flying around each other to see how nicely the spacecraft would control on something like that. So, that was the very first big step towards the rendezvous and docking, which, of course, were very necessary for the lunar flights, too.

[Assistant] You then were Capcom [capsule communicator] on—on VIII.

[User] Yes, I—

[Assistant] Gemini VIII.

[User] —yeah.

[Assistant] Right. And there was a problem. Talk about that problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I—

[Assistant] Gemini VIII.

[User] —yeah.

[Assistant] Right. And there was a problem. Talk about that problem.

[User] Well, Gemini VIII had a problem, probably one of the first big problems. And unbeknownst to us, when they were out of radio contact a stuck thruster had occurred. And originally Neil [A. Armstrong]—Neil and Dave [David R.] Scott were on that flight—thought that it might be the Agena. And they were trying to somehow, you know, slow the thing down. It was starting to make them roll. And so, they thought, “Well, we’d better get rid of the Agena.” They had already completed a rendezvous and docking; and so, they jettisoned the Agena and the—the spin-up increased. And it turned out finally that it was one of their thrusters that was firing. And so, they managed—and they were very cool about this whole thing. They managed to pull the circuit breaker and get the thruster off the line. And then using their—the reentry thrusters, which were normally only used for reentry, they were able to slow the vehicle down; and, of course, they had to come back early.

[Assistant] What happened in Mission Control? What going on around you while all of this is going on up there and nobody is sure what’s going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, everybody’s trying to think up solutions on what the problems are. We did—the problem hit us all of a sudden, because when they came back into radio contact, well, they said, “Hey,” I guess they used to use the old phrase long before 13, they—“we got a problem.” And—but I think they managed to jettison the Agena and then determine their problem; and so, it was sort of an aftermath back at the Control Center. Because I don’t think there was much that we could’ve done in the Control Center for a problem like that. If they kept spinning up faster and faster, they would’ve blacked out.

[Assistant] But this was—you realized after the fact, because you didn’t know it was happening then, once they got around, you realized they had a very serious problem.

[User] Oh yes. If they didn’t correct the problem themselves, they would’ve been in deep trouble.

[Assistant] Did that make you rethink anything about how safe or how unsafe this sort of thing is?

[User] No, Ron. It’s surprising. In this business, that problem was over there. You know, nothing’s going to happen to me! Everything’s fine. Don’t worry about it. Spaceflight is so interesting, the rewards far overshadow the risks. And so, that was my feeling.

[Assistant] That kind of a test pilot mentality permeated everybody at NASA, did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. If they didn’t correct the problem themselves, they would’ve been in deep trouble.

[Assistant] Did that make you rethink anything about how safe or how unsafe this sort of thing is?

[User] No, Ron. It’s surprising. In this business, that problem was over there. You know, nothing’s going to happen to me! Everything’s fine. Don’t worry about it. Spaceflight is so interesting, the rewards far overshadow the risks. And so, that was my feeling.

[Assistant] That kind of a test pilot mentality permeated everybody at NASA, did it?

[User] I think so. I think the people who want to become astronauts, at least in those days—most of us were test pilots in those days—had that sort of a curiosity and an adventure spirit to them that we were able to take that in stride.

[Assistant] You were next assigned to back up the Gemini X crew, but [Charles A.] Bassett [II] and [Elliott M.] See [Jr.] were killed—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Ron. It’s surprising. In this business, that problem was over there. You know, nothing’s going to happen to me! Everything’s fine. Don’t worry about it. Spaceflight is so interesting, the rewards far overshadow the risks. And so, that was my feeling.

[Assistant] That kind of a test pilot mentality permeated everybody at NASA, did it?

[User] I think so. I think the people who want to become astronauts, at least in those days—most of us were test pilots in those days—had that sort of a curiosity and an adventure spirit to them that we were able to take that in stride.

[Assistant] You were next assigned to back up the Gemini X crew, but [Charles A.] Bassett [II] and [Elliott M.] See [Jr.] were killed—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and things changed. What happened after their deaths?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I think the people who want to become astronauts, at least in those days—most of us were test pilots in those days—had that sort of a curiosity and an adventure spirit to them that we were able to take that in stride.

[Assistant] You were next assigned to back up the Gemini X crew, but [Charles A.] Bassett [II] and [Elliott M.] See [Jr.] were killed—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and things changed. What happened after their deaths?

[User] Well, it’s sort of fate. We were backing up X, but the IX backups became the prime backups—that was Stafford and Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan, I believe. So, we became the backups to IX. And then what we did was to become the prime crew for the last Gemini flight, that was Gemini XII.

[Assistant] Did you realize that was the last one? Was it the last one scheduled, or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and things changed. What happened after their deaths?

[User] Well, it’s sort of fate. We were backing up X, but the IX backups became the prime backups—that was Stafford and Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan, I believe. So, we became the backups to IX. And then what we did was to become the prime crew for the last Gemini flight, that was Gemini XII.

[Assistant] Did you realize that was the last one? Was it the last one scheduled, or—?

[User] No, that was the last one.

[Assistant] That was the last one scheduled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was the last one.

[Assistant] That was the last one scheduled.

[User] It was—I wasn’t going to go on Gemini if I was X—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —you know.

[Assistant] So, it gave you an opportunity to fly Gemini again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was—I wasn’t going to go on Gemini if I was X—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —you know.

[Assistant] So, it gave you an opportunity to fly Gemini again.

[User] Yeah. And it gave me a little bit of a command opportunity, which I wanted.

[Assistant] And you were involved with a spacewalking mission on that. Talk about that.