[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I wonder what you meant by that.

[User] What did I think? What did I feel like? I guess I just knew each day it was like when you’re a kid and you’re crossing off the days till Christmas. I was just thinking it’s getting closer and closer and closer.

[Assistant] You were finally going to achieve that goal of the Moon landing, when you ran in and told Pete when he was in the shower.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I was curious if feminism had any role in that. If you were thinking that you wanted to take on a new role for yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What did I think? What did I feel like? I guess I just knew each day it was like when you’re a kid and you’re crossing off the days till Christmas. I was just thinking it’s getting closer and closer and closer.

[Assistant] You were finally going to achieve that goal of the Moon landing, when you ran in and told Pete when he was in the shower.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I was curious if feminism had any role in that. If you were thinking that you wanted to take on a new role for yourself.

[User] No, I don’t think women did very much. Very few women did in those days. Nowadays they do, right off the bat, but not then.

[Assistant] Tell us about that launch and hearing about the lightning that hit the Saturn rocket.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I was curious if feminism had any role in that. If you were thinking that you wanted to take on a new role for yourself.

[User] No, I don’t think women did very much. Very few women did in those days. Nowadays they do, right off the bat, but not then.

[Assistant] Tell us about that launch and hearing about the lightning that hit the Saturn rocket.

[User]
Oh yes. That was exciting. We were in a boat on the Banana River. My parents were on board, and Dodie [Dora J.] Hamblin was with us. We were up on deck for the countdown. We could see the spacecraft off in the distance. We saw the launch. Of course we could hear it too because we had the radio.\n\n Then we saw the lightning. [Makes lightning noise] I didn’t know it hit [the spacecraft]. I just saw it looked like it was close. Then we heard Pete talking about all the buses dropped out. I guess they did have communication because I heard him say that. I don’t know what they didn’t have. A lot of their telemetry they didn’t have.\n\n Finally they kept doing like you do with a fuse. You just do it on and off until it comes back on again. Finally they got them all back on again and said, “You’re go for the mission.” That was a very exciting time.\n\n SEYMOUR

And we can’t make the television work.

I know or the computer.

[Assistant] What did your kids think of their father’s role in the space program? Did they have a real understanding of what he was doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think women did very much. Very few women did in those days. Nowadays they do, right off the bat, but not then.

[Assistant] Tell us about that launch and hearing about the lightning that hit the Saturn rocket.

[User]
Oh yes. That was exciting. We were in a boat on the Banana River. My parents were on board, and Dodie [Dora J.] Hamblin was with us. We were up on deck for the countdown. We could see the spacecraft off in the distance. We saw the launch. Of course we could hear it too because we had the radio.\n\n Then we saw the lightning. [Makes lightning noise] I didn’t know it hit [the spacecraft]. I just saw it looked like it was close. Then we heard Pete talking about all the buses dropped out. I guess they did have communication because I heard him say that. I don’t know what they didn’t have. A lot of their telemetry they didn’t have.\n\n Finally they kept doing like you do with a fuse. You just do it on and off until it comes back on again. Finally they got them all back on again and said, “You’re go for the mission.” That was a very exciting time.\n\n SEYMOUR

And we can’t make the television work.

I know or the computer.

[Assistant] What did your kids think of their father’s role in the space program? Did they have a real understanding of what he was doing?

[User] I don’t know. It didn’t seem like it was so unique to them as it did to the older people that realized it. They just thought, not that everybody’s dad did it, but that all the other dads that worked on it were all in the same boat. I guess they just didn’t realize what was going on in the first [flight]. Maybe by Skylab they probably realized that that’s a unique thing. But the first couple flights, I don’t think they thought it was any different than what other people did.

[Assistant] Did you have folks over at your house for the Moon landing and all those activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. It didn’t seem like it was so unique to them as it did to the older people that realized it. They just thought, not that everybody’s dad did it, but that all the other dads that worked on it were all in the same boat. I guess they just didn’t realize what was going on in the first [flight]. Maybe by Skylab they probably realized that that’s a unique thing. But the first couple flights, I don’t think they thought it was any different than what other people did.

[Assistant] Did you have folks over at your house for the Moon landing and all those activities?

[User] Oh, of course, they were there at the house for everything. All the periods of high activity—I forget what that acronym is that they used. That’s when different people would come over, like some of the other astronauts that were not doing anything would come over to the house too and hold my hand and explain to me what was going on so I wouldn’t be so frightened.

[Assistant] Had Pete given you a heads-up as to what was happening, what to expect?

[User] Oh, I debriefed him after he came back. I had so many questions. I made him stay up till midnight answering questions the whole time, but he didn’t have that much to say about it. He said he wasn’t afraid to go, and he said he was well trained. Of course didn’t keep me from worrying. He didn’t really try to make me feel better about it. I was just as scared when he was doing those test pilot flights. I guess I decided I would go along with that. That’s what I had signed up for, and I’m going to do it.

[Assistant] Did Pete tell you what he was going to say when he first set foot on the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, of course, they were there at the house for everything. All the periods of high activity—I forget what that acronym is that they used. That’s when different people would come over, like some of the other astronauts that were not doing anything would come over to the house too and hold my hand and explain to me what was going on so I wouldn’t be so frightened.

[Assistant] Had Pete given you a heads-up as to what was happening, what to expect?

[User] Oh, I debriefed him after he came back. I had so many questions. I made him stay up till midnight answering questions the whole time, but he didn’t have that much to say about it. He said he wasn’t afraid to go, and he said he was well trained. Of course didn’t keep me from worrying. He didn’t really try to make me feel better about it. I was just as scared when he was doing those test pilot flights. I guess I decided I would go along with that. That’s what I had signed up for, and I’m going to do it.

[Assistant] Did Pete tell you what he was going to say when he first set foot on the Moon?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was a surprise to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I debriefed him after he came back. I had so many questions. I made him stay up till midnight answering questions the whole time, but he didn’t have that much to say about it. He said he wasn’t afraid to go, and he said he was well trained. Of course didn’t keep me from worrying. He didn’t really try to make me feel better about it. I was just as scared when he was doing those test pilot flights. I guess I decided I would go along with that. That’s what I had signed up for, and I’m going to do it.

[Assistant] Did Pete tell you what he was going to say when he first set foot on the Moon?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was a surprise to you?

[User] Yes, “a little guy like me.”

[Assistant] Did that get a big laugh from the group in your house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was a surprise to you?

[User] Yes, “a little guy like me.”

[Assistant] Did that get a big laugh from the group in your house?

[User] Yes, everybody liked that. Oh, and then the rector’s wife, Father Raish’s wife, told me that she had a dream the night before they landed on the Moon, that they couldn’t come back. That they were not able to take off the Moon and come back. I thought that wasn’t a very nice thing to tell me.

[Assistant] No, I would not have said that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, “a little guy like me.”

[Assistant] Did that get a big laugh from the group in your house?

[User] Yes, everybody liked that. Oh, and then the rector’s wife, Father Raish’s wife, told me that she had a dream the night before they landed on the Moon, that they couldn’t come back. That they were not able to take off the Moon and come back. I thought that wasn’t a very nice thing to tell me.

[Assistant] No, I would not have said that.

[User] She could have kept that to herself.

[Assistant] Yes, or said something afterwards.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, everybody liked that. Oh, and then the rector’s wife, Father Raish’s wife, told me that she had a dream the night before they landed on the Moon, that they couldn’t come back. That they were not able to take off the Moon and come back. I thought that wasn’t a very nice thing to tell me.

[Assistant] No, I would not have said that.

[User] She could have kept that to herself.

[Assistant] Yes, or said something afterwards.

[User] Afterwards that’s okay.

[Assistant] Did you go to church during the mission, or did your minister come to your house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She could have kept that to herself.

[Assistant] Yes, or said something afterwards.

[User] Afterwards that’s okay.

[Assistant] Did you go to church during the mission, or did your minister come to your house?

[User] Yes, I did I guess during some of those missions. The first one I don’t think was over Sunday, but I went on Sunday. I have a picture somewhere of myself and my parents going to church. [The press] did follow you anywhere you went.

[Assistant] Would they follow you into the church? Or would they stand outside?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Afterwards that’s okay.

[Assistant] Did you go to church during the mission, or did your minister come to your house?

[User] Yes, I did I guess during some of those missions. The first one I don’t think was over Sunday, but I went on Sunday. I have a picture somewhere of myself and my parents going to church. [The press] did follow you anywhere you went.

[Assistant] Would they follow you into the church? Or would they stand outside?

[User] Not into, just up to the front door.

[Assistant] Were there any special prayers at the services for the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did I guess during some of those missions. The first one I don’t think was over Sunday, but I went on Sunday. I have a picture somewhere of myself and my parents going to church. [The press] did follow you anywhere you went.

[Assistant] Would they follow you into the church? Or would they stand outside?

[User] Not into, just up to the front door.

[Assistant] Were there any special prayers at the services for the crew?

[User] I can’t think if there was, maybe so. Maybe Father Raish must have said something, because why wouldn’t he? But I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Did you have any concerns about Pete bringing home Moon bugs? There was that whole discussion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not into, just up to the front door.

[Assistant] Were there any special prayers at the services for the crew?

[User] I can’t think if there was, maybe so. Maybe Father Raish must have said something, because why wouldn’t he? But I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Did you have any concerns about Pete bringing home Moon bugs? There was that whole discussion.

[User] Not at all. I wasn’t the least bit of afraid of that, I didn’t think there were any bugs on the Moon.

[Assistant] More concerned about him coming home I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t think if there was, maybe so. Maybe Father Raish must have said something, because why wouldn’t he? But I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Did you have any concerns about Pete bringing home Moon bugs? There was that whole discussion.

[User] Not at all. I wasn’t the least bit of afraid of that, I didn’t think there were any bugs on the Moon.

[Assistant] More concerned about him coming home I guess.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So many of the people we’ve talked to talked about how Apollo really unified that Clear Lake community, that they felt like everyone was behind Apollo, that everyone was like a family. I wonder do you think that was the case and why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. I wasn’t the least bit of afraid of that, I didn’t think there were any bugs on the Moon.

[Assistant] More concerned about him coming home I guess.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So many of the people we’ve talked to talked about how Apollo really unified that Clear Lake community, that they felt like everyone was behind Apollo, that everyone was like a family. I wonder do you think that was the case and why.

[User] Yes, I really felt it. Practically everybody I knew in Timber Cove was in my house all during all the flights. Everybody was so supportive, and they brought all this food. That was the other reason why that pool guy thought Pete had died, because he saw all this food spread out all over the place, and flowers everywhere. He said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.”

[Assistant] He thought it was a wake.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So many of the people we’ve talked to talked about how Apollo really unified that Clear Lake community, that they felt like everyone was behind Apollo, that everyone was like a family. I wonder do you think that was the case and why.

[User] Yes, I really felt it. Practically everybody I knew in Timber Cove was in my house all during all the flights. Everybody was so supportive, and they brought all this food. That was the other reason why that pool guy thought Pete had died, because he saw all this food spread out all over the place, and flowers everywhere. He said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.”

[Assistant] He thought it was a wake.

[User] He thought it was a wake.

[Assistant] That’s hilarious. Why do you think people in the Clear Lake area supported Apollo so much? Was it because they worked at NASA, or were there other reasons?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I really felt it. Practically everybody I knew in Timber Cove was in my house all during all the flights. Everybody was so supportive, and they brought all this food. That was the other reason why that pool guy thought Pete had died, because he saw all this food spread out all over the place, and flowers everywhere. He said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.”

[Assistant] He thought it was a wake.

[User] He thought it was a wake.

[Assistant] That’s hilarious. Why do you think people in the Clear Lake area supported Apollo so much? Was it because they worked at NASA, or were there other reasons?

[User] A lot of them worked at NASA, sure. Also I think everybody in the world was interested in what was going on. This is something they’d never done before, so of course they were, and they probably felt they were even a little special because they were closer to it.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you. We have just a few more minutes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He thought it was a wake.

[Assistant] That’s hilarious. Why do you think people in the Clear Lake area supported Apollo so much? Was it because they worked at NASA, or were there other reasons?

[User] A lot of them worked at NASA, sure. Also I think everybody in the world was interested in what was going on. This is something they’d never done before, so of course they were, and they probably felt they were even a little special because they were closer to it.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you. We have just a few more minutes.

[User] Oh, is it time to go? Oh, you have 15 more minutes.

[Assistant] Yes, exactly. Like I said, we like to keep to time. Talk about Skylab. That was a very different mission, because that was much longer. He was going to be in space for a longer period of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of them worked at NASA, sure. Also I think everybody in the world was interested in what was going on. This is something they’d never done before, so of course they were, and they probably felt they were even a little special because they were closer to it.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you. We have just a few more minutes.

[User] Oh, is it time to go? Oh, you have 15 more minutes.

[Assistant] Yes, exactly. Like I said, we like to keep to time. Talk about Skylab. That was a very different mission, because that was much longer. He was going to be in space for a longer period of time.

[User] Much longer, yes. I think Pete developed a little bit of a—it wasn’t a heart murmur. It was like you skip a beat or something in his heart. They were worried about that. Let’s see. Was one of those guys a doctor? Yes. [Joseph P.] Kerwin was a doctor. He didn’t think it was really very dangerous. He didn’t really feel as though it was anything to stop the mission for. I think that can happen anytime, have a skip of a beat. There’s a song about it, “My heart skipped a beat when I saw you.”

[Assistant] Had things changed since Apollo had started to wind down with Apollo 17? Was there as much interest in Skylab as there was for Gemini and Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, is it time to go? Oh, you have 15 more minutes.

[Assistant] Yes, exactly. Like I said, we like to keep to time. Talk about Skylab. That was a very different mission, because that was much longer. He was going to be in space for a longer period of time.

[User] Much longer, yes. I think Pete developed a little bit of a—it wasn’t a heart murmur. It was like you skip a beat or something in his heart. They were worried about that. Let’s see. Was one of those guys a doctor? Yes. [Joseph P.] Kerwin was a doctor. He didn’t think it was really very dangerous. He didn’t really feel as though it was anything to stop the mission for. I think that can happen anytime, have a skip of a beat. There’s a song about it, “My heart skipped a beat when I saw you.”

[Assistant] Had things changed since Apollo had started to wind down with Apollo 17? Was there as much interest in Skylab as there was for Gemini and Apollo?

[User] It seemed to me that it was pretty much [similar], but of course it would fade off during the long days. For the launch and for the recovery they were all back again. Then there was a little blurb every night on the news if there was anything that they were doing. They reported on that. It wasn’t as intense as it was on Apollo flights.

[Assistant] Were you following much in terms of what was happening to save Skylab? Was your husband ever concerned that he wasn’t going to fly that last mission because of what had happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seemed to me that it was pretty much [similar], but of course it would fade off during the long days. For the launch and for the recovery they were all back again. Then there was a little blurb every night on the news if there was anything that they were doing. They reported on that. It wasn’t as intense as it was on Apollo flights.

[Assistant] Were you following much in terms of what was happening to save Skylab? Was your husband ever concerned that he wasn’t going to fly that last mission because of what had happened?

[User] I didn’t get to talk to him because he was over in quarantine. I guess maybe they were so they wouldn’t catch anything before they went. They were over in whatever—I can’t remember these names anymore. You know where they were.\n\n I guess it was before we left the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that they knew that the solar panel didn’t come out. I guess we were kind of worried. What did they do? They had an EVA [extravehicular activity] that went out and pulled on it. I think attached something to it and pulled it out. It wasn’t very long before they did that, and then Jack Kinzler had that parasol that he invented. You can probably remember better than I do because you interviewed him. Believe me, my memory has gotten really bad recently.

[Assistant] Did Jack ever come over and tell you about his solution and share those details with you?

[User] I think he did after they deployed it. Yes, he did. He told us exactly. He went down to a sporting goods store. He bought some fishing rods and put them together, and they would fold up like that. He just told us how he dreamed it up. He said he even dreamed it the night before. He was thinking about it so hard that he dreamed to go get some fishing rods and Mylar and put it together, and he did.

[Assistant] Your kids were older now. Did they have a better understanding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t get to talk to him because he was over in quarantine. I guess maybe they were so they wouldn’t catch anything before they went. They were over in whatever—I can’t remember these names anymore. You know where they were.\n\n I guess it was before we left the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that they knew that the solar panel didn’t come out. I guess we were kind of worried. What did they do? They had an EVA [extravehicular activity] that went out and pulled on it. I think attached something to it and pulled it out. It wasn’t very long before they did that, and then Jack Kinzler had that parasol that he invented. You can probably remember better than I do because you interviewed him. Believe me, my memory has gotten really bad recently.

[Assistant] Did Jack ever come over and tell you about his solution and share those details with you?

[User] I think he did after they deployed it. Yes, he did. He told us exactly. He went down to a sporting goods store. He bought some fishing rods and put them together, and they would fold up like that. He just told us how he dreamed it up. He said he even dreamed it the night before. He was thinking about it so hard that he dreamed to go get some fishing rods and Mylar and put it together, and he did.

[Assistant] Your kids were older now. Did they have a better understanding?

[User] For Skylab, yes. I had a terrible cold too, as I remember. We were on our way home. Can’t remember [if] they [took] us on a Gulfstream or not. I remember Peter going up to where they had the flight attendant and telling, “Bring Mom a Bloody Mary, she’s just so nervous.”

[Assistant] They definitely were older if they knew to ask for a Bloody Mary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he did after they deployed it. Yes, he did. He told us exactly. He went down to a sporting goods store. He bought some fishing rods and put them together, and they would fold up like that. He just told us how he dreamed it up. He said he even dreamed it the night before. He was thinking about it so hard that he dreamed to go get some fishing rods and Mylar and put it together, and he did.

[Assistant] Your kids were older now. Did they have a better understanding?

[User] For Skylab, yes. I had a terrible cold too, as I remember. We were on our way home. Can’t remember [if] they [took] us on a Gulfstream or not. I remember Peter going up to where they had the flight attendant and telling, “Bring Mom a Bloody Mary, she’s just so nervous.”

[Assistant] They definitely were older if they knew to ask for a Bloody Mary.

[User] Oh yes, they knew. He knew that I liked Bloody Marys. I still do.

[Assistant] Were they following the mission along the same way that you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For Skylab, yes. I had a terrible cold too, as I remember. We were on our way home. Can’t remember [if] they [took] us on a Gulfstream or not. I remember Peter going up to where they had the flight attendant and telling, “Bring Mom a Bloody Mary, she’s just so nervous.”

[Assistant] They definitely were older if they knew to ask for a Bloody Mary.

[User] Oh yes, they knew. He knew that I liked Bloody Marys. I still do.

[Assistant] Were they following the mission along the same way that you were?

[User] Oh yes, they were old enough then definitely to understand all that. I had a little boy come over here the other day, a little Latin American boy about five years old. He was so smart. He knew all the planets, how far they are, how long it would take to get to each one. He named them off like this. I couldn’t believe it. He came over here because I was looking for someone to take my sister’s dogs. She just didn’t want to part with them. She has to go into a retirement place, and they won’t let her keep the dogs. My friend told me about this Latin American family that had six kids. She said, “I’m going to ask them if they’ll take the dogs,” and they did.\n\n They came over here first because she said, “I’ll tell them that maybe I could find some space stuff for the little boy.” I found a few little things. I should have given him some of those—well, maybe not the matches that had the emblems on them. I found a few things, a couple pictures. He came over, and I knew that he was smart, because my friend that made the transaction, she said, “I bet you if I tell them that they’ll get some space stuff they’ll take the dogs.”

[Assistant] Quid pro quo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, they were old enough then definitely to understand all that. I had a little boy come over here the other day, a little Latin American boy about five years old. He was so smart. He knew all the planets, how far they are, how long it would take to get to each one. He named them off like this. I couldn’t believe it. He came over here because I was looking for someone to take my sister’s dogs. She just didn’t want to part with them. She has to go into a retirement place, and they won’t let her keep the dogs. My friend told me about this Latin American family that had six kids. She said, “I’m going to ask them if they’ll take the dogs,” and they did.\n\n They came over here first because she said, “I’ll tell them that maybe I could find some space stuff for the little boy.” I found a few little things. I should have given him some of those—well, maybe not the matches that had the emblems on them. I found a few things, a couple pictures. He came over, and I knew that he was smart, because my friend that made the transaction, she said, “I bet you if I tell them that they’ll get some space stuff they’ll take the dogs.”

[Assistant] Quid pro quo.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] What is it?

[Assistant] Quid pro quo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] What is it?

[Assistant] Quid pro quo.

[User] Quid pro quo, I always get that mixed up. That was it. He came and he was so cute. He was so excited about getting the space stuff.

[Assistant] I noticed during that Skylab mission that there were three big anniversaries, one being your twentieth wedding anniversary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What is it?

[Assistant] Quid pro quo.

[User] Quid pro quo, I always get that mixed up. That was it. He came and he was so cute. He was so excited about getting the space stuff.

[Assistant] I noticed during that Skylab mission that there were three big anniversaries, one being your twentieth wedding anniversary.

[User] Oh, I didn’t remember that.

[Assistant] Yes, and Pete’s birthday and Father’s Day. I thought there were a lot of things that happened then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quid pro quo, I always get that mixed up. That was it. He came and he was so cute. He was so excited about getting the space stuff.

[Assistant] I noticed during that Skylab mission that there were three big anniversaries, one being your twentieth wedding anniversary.

[User] Oh, I didn’t remember that.

[Assistant] Yes, and Pete’s birthday and Father’s Day. I thought there were a lot of things that happened then.

[User] Oh, that’s right. All in June.

[Assistant] Did you celebrate those moments when he was in space or did you wait for him to come back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I didn’t remember that.

[Assistant] Yes, and Pete’s birthday and Father’s Day. I thought there were a lot of things that happened then.

[User] Oh, that’s right. All in June.

[Assistant] Did you celebrate those moments when he was in space or did you wait for him to come back?

[User] We probably did the birthdays, yes, but not the anniversary.

[Assistant] Did you get to talk with Pete for these missions over the phone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that’s right. All in June.

[Assistant] Did you celebrate those moments when he was in space or did you wait for him to come back?

[User] We probably did the birthdays, yes, but not the anniversary.

[Assistant] Did you get to talk with Pete for these missions over the phone?

[User] When I was in mission control. I didn’t really say very much, but we each got a chance to say, “Hi, how you doing?” Just to hear their—well, we hear the voice on the squawk boxes—just wish them luck and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you continue to have the security detail at the house for Skylab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We probably did the birthdays, yes, but not the anniversary.

[Assistant] Did you get to talk with Pete for these missions over the phone?

[User] When I was in mission control. I didn’t really say very much, but we each got a chance to say, “Hi, how you doing?” Just to hear their—well, we hear the voice on the squawk boxes—just wish them luck and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you continue to have the security detail at the house for Skylab?

[User] Oh yes. The whole time. All the flights, for the whole time.

[Assistant] Did you ever need the guard for any reason?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was in mission control. I didn’t really say very much, but we each got a chance to say, “Hi, how you doing?” Just to hear their—well, we hear the voice on the squawk boxes—just wish them luck and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you continue to have the security detail at the house for Skylab?

[User] Oh yes. The whole time. All the flights, for the whole time.

[Assistant] Did you ever need the guard for any reason?

[User] No.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you, because we have a little bit of time.

Yes, I was just curious. You said you were at Bryn Mawr when you met Pete. What were you majoring in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. The whole time. All the flights, for the whole time.

[Assistant] Did you ever need the guard for any reason?

[User] No.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you, because we have a little bit of time.

Yes, I was just curious. You said you were at Bryn Mawr when you met Pete. What were you majoring in?

[User] English.

[Assistant] English. Did you plan on doing anything with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you, because we have a little bit of time.

Yes, I was just curious. You said you were at Bryn Mawr when you met Pete. What were you majoring in?

[User] English.

[Assistant] English. Did you plan on doing anything with that?

[User] No, it just was my favorite subject when I was in high school, so I figured I’ll go with that. Never knowing that I would be writing two books.

[Assistant] Right, and a memoir.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] English.

[Assistant] English. Did you plan on doing anything with that?

[User] No, it just was my favorite subject when I was in high school, so I figured I’ll go with that. Never knowing that I would be writing two books.

[Assistant] Right, and a memoir.

[User] But I did, because I started taking this class that they have here. It’s called ALIR, Academy of Learning in Retirement, and if you’re over 55 you can take all these courses. They have about 75 courses. I got in this writing class and had a wonderful teacher. I’m still going to it. I think it’s been 12 years I’ve been going and during that time I wrote the two books. Once a week we meet in that class, and I took a lot of other classes too. Everybody takes turns reading what they’ve written last week. It’s a critique group. That was a real impetus for me to write.

[Assistant] No kidding, I imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it just was my favorite subject when I was in high school, so I figured I’ll go with that. Never knowing that I would be writing two books.

[Assistant] Right, and a memoir.

[User] But I did, because I started taking this class that they have here. It’s called ALIR, Academy of Learning in Retirement, and if you’re over 55 you can take all these courses. They have about 75 courses. I got in this writing class and had a wonderful teacher. I’m still going to it. I think it’s been 12 years I’ve been going and during that time I wrote the two books. Once a week we meet in that class, and I took a lot of other classes too. Everybody takes turns reading what they’ve written last week. It’s a critique group. That was a real impetus for me to write.

[Assistant] No kidding, I imagine.

[User] It’s fun, still fun. Except I’ve written everything I know.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s funny. The only other thing I was thinking. You said you went into Houston to the secondhand shops. They still have a lot of those in Houston. Do you remember going into Houston for other things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I did, because I started taking this class that they have here. It’s called ALIR, Academy of Learning in Retirement, and if you’re over 55 you can take all these courses. They have about 75 courses. I got in this writing class and had a wonderful teacher. I’m still going to it. I think it’s been 12 years I’ve been going and during that time I wrote the two books. Once a week we meet in that class, and I took a lot of other classes too. Everybody takes turns reading what they’ve written last week. It’s a critique group. That was a real impetus for me to write.

[Assistant] No kidding, I imagine.

[User] It’s fun, still fun. Except I’ve written everything I know.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s funny. The only other thing I was thinking. You said you went into Houston to the secondhand shops. They still have a lot of those in Houston. Do you remember going into Houston for other things?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you do most of your shopping in the Clear Lake area, or did you go into Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s fun, still fun. Except I’ve written everything I know.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s funny. The only other thing I was thinking. You said you went into Houston to the secondhand shops. They still have a lot of those in Houston. Do you remember going into Houston for other things?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you do most of your shopping in the Clear Lake area, or did you go into Houston?

[User] I remember there was a store called Walling’s that we all went to because it had really neat things. That’s where we bought our evening gowns, if we could afford them. Otherwise we got secondhand ones. I remember they had some sunglasses that I bought for $7. I thought, “How can anybody spend $7 on a pair of sunglasses? I can’t believe I did that!” But I wanted them so much that I did.

[Assistant] That’s funny. Did you-all do any cultural things? Because Houston had the ballet and the symphony.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you do most of your shopping in the Clear Lake area, or did you go into Houston?

[User] I remember there was a store called Walling’s that we all went to because it had really neat things. That’s where we bought our evening gowns, if we could afford them. Otherwise we got secondhand ones. I remember they had some sunglasses that I bought for $7. I thought, “How can anybody spend $7 on a pair of sunglasses? I can’t believe I did that!” But I wanted them so much that I did.

[Assistant] That’s funny. Did you-all do any cultural things? Because Houston had the ballet and the symphony.

[User] Oh yes, oh, sure, we went to the Alley Theatre and went to lots of different things, yes.

[Assistant] I did have a couple of other questions that I was looking at. Do you feel like you made any sacrifice for the Apollo Program that your family, you personally or your sons, had to give up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, oh, sure, we went to the Alley Theatre and went to lots of different things, yes.

[Assistant] I did have a couple of other questions that I was looking at. Do you feel like you made any sacrifice for the Apollo Program that your family, you personally or your sons, had to give up?

[User] I didn’t have to give up anything. I gained a lot of things.

[Assistant] Like what?

[User] I got all those trips and meeting all these celebrities and lots of fun things.

[Assistant] So it was a positive event in your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t have to give up anything. I gained a lot of things.

[Assistant] Like what?

[User] I got all those trips and meeting all these celebrities and lots of fun things.

[Assistant] So it was a positive event in your life.

[User] Oh, definitely. That’s not to say that I didn’t cry and scream and carry on and tear my hair out either.

[Assistant] One of the things that I’m approaching the Apollo and Clear Lake community from is the women, the wives, who were at home taking care of things while their husbands were off traveling, working on the spacecraft, the lunar module, that they really helped to create that Clear Lake community. I wonder if you agree with that and could talk about that a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got all those trips and meeting all these celebrities and lots of fun things.

[Assistant] So it was a positive event in your life.

[User] Oh, definitely. That’s not to say that I didn’t cry and scream and carry on and tear my hair out either.

[Assistant] One of the things that I’m approaching the Apollo and Clear Lake community from is the women, the wives, who were at home taking care of things while their husbands were off traveling, working on the spacecraft, the lunar module, that they really helped to create that Clear Lake community. I wonder if you agree with that and could talk about that a little bit.

[User] Probably so, because everybody was very close in that community and everybody helped everybody else. Everything they did. That part of it was a magical time, to have such wonderful neighbors.

[Assistant] It seems like a very unique community at a unique time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, definitely. That’s not to say that I didn’t cry and scream and carry on and tear my hair out either.

[Assistant] One of the things that I’m approaching the Apollo and Clear Lake community from is the women, the wives, who were at home taking care of things while their husbands were off traveling, working on the spacecraft, the lunar module, that they really helped to create that Clear Lake community. I wonder if you agree with that and could talk about that a little bit.

[User] Probably so, because everybody was very close in that community and everybody helped everybody else. Everything they did. That part of it was a magical time, to have such wonderful neighbors.

[Assistant] It seems like a very unique community at a unique time.

[User] Absolutely it was.

[Assistant] I saw an interview with you right after the book came out, Lily’s book, and you said that the wives wanted their husbands to be first. I was wondering how did you balance that with your friendships with the other wives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably so, because everybody was very close in that community and everybody helped everybody else. Everything they did. That part of it was a magical time, to have such wonderful neighbors.

[Assistant] It seems like a very unique community at a unique time.

[User] Absolutely it was.

[Assistant] I saw an interview with you right after the book came out, Lily’s book, and you said that the wives wanted their husbands to be first. I was wondering how did you balance that with your friendships with the other wives.

[User] I guess we felt competitive but nothing like [the men] did. They were very competitive. We just didn’t want to do anything that would jeopardize their place in line.

[Assistant] You always felt like eyes were on you and what you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely it was.

[Assistant] I saw an interview with you right after the book came out, Lily’s book, and you said that the wives wanted their husbands to be first. I was wondering how did you balance that with your friendships with the other wives.

[User] I guess we felt competitive but nothing like [the men] did. They were very competitive. We just didn’t want to do anything that would jeopardize their place in line.

[Assistant] You always felt like eyes were on you and what you did?

[User] Yes, or afraid that something might happen that would make them lose their place in line of a flight.

[Assistant] Did your husband ever talk with you about any of the other husbands? Did you ever hear through the grapevine that husbands had talked to their wives about, “Hey, you really probably shouldn’t do this because that could jeopardize [my flight]?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess we felt competitive but nothing like [the men] did. They were very competitive. We just didn’t want to do anything that would jeopardize their place in line.

[Assistant] You always felt like eyes were on you and what you did?

[User] Yes, or afraid that something might happen that would make them lose their place in line of a flight.

[Assistant] Did your husband ever talk with you about any of the other husbands? Did you ever hear through the grapevine that husbands had talked to their wives about, “Hey, you really probably shouldn’t do this because that could jeopardize [my flight]?”

[User] I can’t remember anything like that. I think probably they must have trusted us, that we would do the right thing. We’re not going to let ourselves do anything that would jeopardize their flights. We’d be on our best behavior. We certainly wouldn’t want anything to get in the way of those flights.

[Assistant] Did you feel that that was confining, having to meet those goals as a wife and a mother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, or afraid that something might happen that would make them lose their place in line of a flight.

[Assistant] Did your husband ever talk with you about any of the other husbands? Did you ever hear through the grapevine that husbands had talked to their wives about, “Hey, you really probably shouldn’t do this because that could jeopardize [my flight]?”

[User] I can’t remember anything like that. I think probably they must have trusted us, that we would do the right thing. We’re not going to let ourselves do anything that would jeopardize their flights. We’d be on our best behavior. We certainly wouldn’t want anything to get in the way of those flights.

[Assistant] Did you feel that that was confining, having to meet those goals as a wife and a mother?

[User] I don’t think so, because I wasn’t doing anything that would be confined. I was able to do what I wanted to do. I could go into Houston and do my charity work. I could do anything I wanted when they were away. I was ruling the roost at home.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in charge of the home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember anything like that. I think probably they must have trusted us, that we would do the right thing. We’re not going to let ourselves do anything that would jeopardize their flights. We’d be on our best behavior. We certainly wouldn’t want anything to get in the way of those flights.

[Assistant] Did you feel that that was confining, having to meet those goals as a wife and a mother?

[User] I don’t think so, because I wasn’t doing anything that would be confined. I was able to do what I wanted to do. I could go into Houston and do my charity work. I could do anything I wanted when they were away. I was ruling the roost at home.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in charge of the home.

[User] I didn’t feel really confined.

[Assistant] I had one other question. It’s another quote that Lily put in her book. It’s a quote that Marge Slayton had said. “You don’t share your personal life. Everyone was happily married. Everything was lovely.” We talked earlier about the number of divorces and how you thought it was related to what the guys were doing at the Cape and other locations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so, because I wasn’t doing anything that would be confined. I was able to do what I wanted to do. I could go into Houston and do my charity work. I could do anything I wanted when they were away. I was ruling the roost at home.

[Assistant] That’s right. You were in charge of the home.

[User] I didn’t feel really confined.

[Assistant] I had one other question. It’s another quote that Lily put in her book. It’s a quote that Marge Slayton had said. “You don’t share your personal life. Everyone was happily married. Everything was lovely.” We talked earlier about the number of divorces and how you thought it was related to what the guys were doing at the Cape and other locations.

[User] Yes. I don’t know whether Louise Shepard—I think there was something, maybe it was in Lily’s book or somewhere I read, that she just would not believe what people were even telling her was happening with Alan [B. Shepard]. She wouldn’t believe it. She just died about two weeks after he did.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that quote, if you thought it was part of the NASA culture where you don’t talk about those things, or if it was part of the generation that you were from. Nowadays people share everything. They put everything online. My grandparents, you didn’t share a lot of those private details.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t feel really confined.

[Assistant] I had one other question. It’s another quote that Lily put in her book. It’s a quote that Marge Slayton had said. “You don’t share your personal life. Everyone was happily married. Everything was lovely.” We talked earlier about the number of divorces and how you thought it was related to what the guys were doing at the Cape and other locations.

[User] Yes. I don’t know whether Louise Shepard—I think there was something, maybe it was in Lily’s book or somewhere I read, that she just would not believe what people were even telling her was happening with Alan [B. Shepard]. She wouldn’t believe it. She just died about two weeks after he did.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that quote, if you thought it was part of the NASA culture where you don’t talk about those things, or if it was part of the generation that you were from. Nowadays people share everything. They put everything online. My grandparents, you didn’t share a lot of those private details.

[User] Yes, a lot of people in World War II would never talk about their experience overseas or during the war.

[Assistant] Exactly. I was curious what you thought about that. If that was a combination.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t know whether Louise Shepard—I think there was something, maybe it was in Lily’s book or somewhere I read, that she just would not believe what people were even telling her was happening with Alan [B. Shepard]. She wouldn’t believe it. She just died about two weeks after he did.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that quote, if you thought it was part of the NASA culture where you don’t talk about those things, or if it was part of the generation that you were from. Nowadays people share everything. They put everything online. My grandparents, you didn’t share a lot of those private details.

[User] Yes, a lot of people in World War II would never talk about their experience overseas or during the war.

[Assistant] Exactly. I was curious what you thought about that. If that was a combination.

[User] I don’t know why, it was just sort of a tacit thing. Just not going to talk about it. You’d answer questions but you wouldn’t just volunteer a lot of stuff. That was probably all in line with trying to make, just like Marge said, everything’s wonderful. Just trying to make people think everything’s wonderful because we don’t want to jeopardize their flights.

[Assistant] I think we’ve touched on the questions that I’ve thought of. Was there anything that you would like to talk about about the wives or your experience that we haven’t covered? I’m trying to look at my notes here to see if there’s other things that we would talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a lot of people in World War II would never talk about their experience overseas or during the war.

[Assistant] Exactly. I was curious what you thought about that. If that was a combination.

[User] I don’t know why, it was just sort of a tacit thing. Just not going to talk about it. You’d answer questions but you wouldn’t just volunteer a lot of stuff. That was probably all in line with trying to make, just like Marge said, everything’s wonderful. Just trying to make people think everything’s wonderful because we don’t want to jeopardize their flights.

[Assistant] I think we’ve touched on the questions that I’ve thought of. Was there anything that you would like to talk about about the wives or your experience that we haven’t covered? I’m trying to look at my notes here to see if there’s other things that we would talk about.

[User] I know that we all went over to each other’s houses while different flights were going on. We were all supportive of each other.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that in terms of the friendships and how those relationships were important?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know why, it was just sort of a tacit thing. Just not going to talk about it. You’d answer questions but you wouldn’t just volunteer a lot of stuff. That was probably all in line with trying to make, just like Marge said, everything’s wonderful. Just trying to make people think everything’s wonderful because we don’t want to jeopardize their flights.

[Assistant] I think we’ve touched on the questions that I’ve thought of. Was there anything that you would like to talk about about the wives or your experience that we haven’t covered? I’m trying to look at my notes here to see if there’s other things that we would talk about.

[User] I know that we all went over to each other’s houses while different flights were going on. We were all supportive of each other.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that in terms of the friendships and how those relationships were important?

[User] It just went without saying that we would all go over and sit with the wives whose husbands were on a mission. We all brought food over and did whatever we could do. It was just like we were relations.

[Assistant] Was that from the military traditions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know that we all went over to each other’s houses while different flights were going on. We were all supportive of each other.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that in terms of the friendships and how those relationships were important?

[User] It just went without saying that we would all go over and sit with the wives whose husbands were on a mission. We all brought food over and did whatever we could do. It was just like we were relations.

[Assistant] Was that from the military traditions?

[User] Part of it was military. That would carry over.

[Assistant] Do you think that was also generational? Again people don’t spend a lot of time [together].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It just went without saying that we would all go over and sit with the wives whose husbands were on a mission. We all brought food over and did whatever we could do. It was just like we were relations.

[Assistant] Was that from the military traditions?

[User] Part of it was military. That would carry over.

[Assistant] Do you think that was also generational? Again people don’t spend a lot of time [together].

[User] No, I think people still do that. Don’t you think they do?

[Assistant] Not as much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Part of it was military. That would carry over.

[Assistant] Do you think that was also generational? Again people don’t spend a lot of time [together].

[User] No, I think people still do that. Don’t you think they do?

[Assistant] Not as much.

[User] Maybe not as much.

[Assistant] We don’t have a lot of people who come over to our house. It’s almost like you go out with friends now instead of inviting people over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think people still do that. Don’t you think they do?

[Assistant] Not as much.

[User] Maybe not as much.

[Assistant] We don’t have a lot of people who come over to our house. It’s almost like you go out with friends now instead of inviting people over.

[User] Oh, I see what you mean, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve tried. At least in our place, we’ve tried to invite people over, and we’ve had them over. But there’s not a reciprocal relationship.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe not as much.

[Assistant] We don’t have a lot of people who come over to our house. It’s almost like you go out with friends now instead of inviting people over.

[User] Oh, I see what you mean, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve tried. At least in our place, we’ve tried to invite people over, and we’ve had them over. But there’s not a reciprocal relationship.

[User] They don’t reciprocate.

[Assistant] That’s why I think it’s very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I see what you mean, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve tried. At least in our place, we’ve tried to invite people over, and we’ve had them over. But there’s not a reciprocal relationship.

[User] They don’t reciprocate.

[Assistant] That’s why I think it’s very interesting.

[User] A lot of wives work though, and that’s why they don’t want to have dinner parties and have people over, because they’re tired by the time they get home. That’s probably the reason for it.

[Assistant] Yes, and the house is always a mess. Yes, there’s a lot of reasons not to do things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don’t reciprocate.

[Assistant] That’s why I think it’s very interesting.

[User] A lot of wives work though, and that’s why they don’t want to have dinner parties and have people over, because they’re tired by the time they get home. That’s probably the reason for it.

[Assistant] Yes, and the house is always a mess. Yes, there’s a lot of reasons not to do things.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Thank you very much for your time today, we really appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I learned that there’s a lot I don’t know.

[Assistant] Explain to me the reference to the -4 and the -5 configurations.

[User] For any hardware at NASA you start with a particular part number, and as improvements are made, there’s a dash number that comes after it. I can’t remember what I had for breakfast this morning but I can remember the part number. It was SV706100. That was the base part number for the Apollo life support system.\n\n The dash number that we flew on Apollo 9 was -5. The dash number we flew on Apollo 11 was -6. The dash number that we flew on Apollo 15 was -7 when we put those improvements in. The basic design is the same, but there are particular improvements that are made. So like as I said -4, all the switches were in the back. The -5 had the switches up front.

[Assistant] Big difference.

[User] Yeah. Big difference. Then when we went to the Moon in the J mission series, Apollo 15, 16, 17, it went to a seven-hour system from the four-hour system. To differentiate one system from another, although they had the same basic part number, the dash number changes. That lets you know okay, if it says -7, the -7 has the extended duration time for the Moon. Configuration control, not just in our systems, but in all systems, is really really important, so you know that if you’ve had a failed part and it’s some design flaw and the design is changed, you want to make sure you never fly that particular part again. So they have all these configuration records. The quality assurance people will verify that a particular piece of hardware meets all these configurations so that you don’t unintentionally fly something that you don’t want to be flying.

[Assistant] Good thing to know. One of the other memories you were going to share with me has to do with Apollo 9 and steak and eggs.