[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Well, the closest I came to any. Well, the ambassador was killed. There were things going on.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But I was not. I was so removed from it, and most of us were. I mean, we really. We really were apolitical in the true sense of the word. The closest I ever came to knowing that something was happening politically in the country or militarily, whatever you want to call it, was one day coming from the swimming hole with the teacher and the kids. This was in the first year. This was not the second year. And around the turn of the road comes a row all abreast of military with guns. And that, that alarmed me. And they were just coming towards us. And the teacher just quietly said, you know, out of the way, you know. So we just went off to the size and they just kept going. They were obviously looking for somebody. But there was no unrest down in that particular area. There might have been unrest in the towns.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because I started to make some Guatemalan friends, maybe upper middle class people. And I know a couple of times got into some political discussions there that made me to believe that the one guy may have been bandero by night or something on this rightist side of things. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like he was saying, what are you doing this for? You know, or what's your, what are you really here for? You know, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So I assume he spoke English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I started to make some Guatemalan friends, maybe upper middle class people. And I know a couple of times got into some political discussions there that made me to believe that the one guy may have been bandero by night or something on this rightist side of things. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like he was saying, what are you doing this for? You know, or what's your, what are you really here for? You know, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So I assume he spoke English.

[User] Well, but we spoke in Spanish.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] We spoke in Spanish, yeah.

[Assistant] And those people you had met in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, but we spoke in Spanish.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] We spoke in Spanish, yeah.

[Assistant] And those people you had met in the town?

[User] In the town. They would find out from the school teacher or they'd find out.

[Assistant] Would they invite you to dinner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We spoke in Spanish, yeah.

[Assistant] And those people you had met in the town?

[User] In the town. They would find out from the school teacher or they'd find out.

[Assistant] Would they invite you to dinner?

[User] Oh, yeah. And in fact, I stayed overnight sometimes. I ended up going to their children's birthday parties and things like that. No, there was a sort of an entrée by being an American, uh, an entrée into many, many levels of society.

[Assistant]
And their interest was that they just enjoyed the company of an American?

Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the town. They would find out from the school teacher or they'd find out.

[Assistant] Would they invite you to dinner?

[User] Oh, yeah. And in fact, I stayed overnight sometimes. I ended up going to their children's birthday parties and things like that. No, there was a sort of an entrée by being an American, uh, an entrée into many, many levels of society.

[Assistant]
And their interest was that they just enjoyed the company of an American?

Yeah, yeah.

[User] And you enjoyed good food.

[Assistant]
Getting out of my. You got it. You got it. A decent meal. And, you know, some maybe higher level conversation or just a little more learned, you know?

So life was pretty placid but not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. And in fact, I stayed overnight sometimes. I ended up going to their children's birthday parties and things like that. No, there was a sort of an entrée by being an American, uh, an entrée into many, many levels of society.

[Assistant]
And their interest was that they just enjoyed the company of an American?

Yeah, yeah.

[User] And you enjoyed good food.

[Assistant]
Getting out of my. You got it. You got it. A decent meal. And, you know, some maybe higher level conversation or just a little more learned, you know?

So life was pretty placid but not.

[User] With breaks. With breaks now and then.

[Assistant] Were there, uh, was there any of the traditional life of festivals and celebrations of births and deaths and marriages? Did you touch on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the closest to that, in my site now I'm talking about.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] No, the biggest, well, soccer. Yeah, they all played soccer. The kids play with bare feet in town. That was the big thing. I remember again, it was the first year, being told that the priest was going to come and have Mass. This was the first time, you know, that this had happened. And I'm thinking, oh really? You know, so he came and I was again in the school yard and I saw a lot of the people had come out and Mass was served there and all. And then it wasn't too long after that that an evangelical came. And guess what? Same people were there. You know, again, this is all my head scratching, you know, what's wrong with this picture? This religion thing is like, you know. I mean, it was a social thing. That was a social thing for them. I'm sure they had some beliefs, but it was a lot of social. They didn't have much social life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, it was hard work and.

[Assistant] There was no point at, say toward the end of the second year, when Peace Corps called you in and alerted you to political problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the biggest, well, soccer. Yeah, they all played soccer. The kids play with bare feet in town. That was the big thing. I remember again, it was the first year, being told that the priest was going to come and have Mass. This was the first time, you know, that this had happened. And I'm thinking, oh really? You know, so he came and I was again in the school yard and I saw a lot of the people had come out and Mass was served there and all. And then it wasn't too long after that that an evangelical came. And guess what? Same people were there. You know, again, this is all my head scratching, you know, what's wrong with this picture? This religion thing is like, you know. I mean, it was a social thing. That was a social thing for them. I'm sure they had some beliefs, but it was a lot of social. They didn't have much social life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, it was hard work and.

[Assistant] There was no point at, say toward the end of the second year, when Peace Corps called you in and alerted you to political problems?

[User] Uh uh.

[Assistant] None of that? OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, it was hard work and.

[Assistant] There was no point at, say toward the end of the second year, when Peace Corps called you in and alerted you to political problems?

[User] Uh uh.

[Assistant] None of that? OK.

[User] No. Yeah. They really, I mean, you know, you read things and say, were you undercover or, you know, things like that going on. And I never felt used or abused or any way connected to the rest of the political scheme of things.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps staff ever come out to your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh uh.

[Assistant] None of that? OK.

[User] No. Yeah. They really, I mean, you know, you read things and say, were you undercover or, you know, things like that going on. And I never felt used or abused or any way connected to the rest of the political scheme of things.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps staff ever come out to your site?

[User] I'm just trying to remember. I think he may have come out once. I think he may have visited me once or twice at the most. And, um. No, I guess not. You know, not that much.

[Assistant] Were you doing any kind of reporting back to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm just trying to remember. I think he may have come out once. I think he may have visited me once or twice at the most. And, um. No, I guess not. You know, not that much.

[Assistant] Were you doing any kind of reporting back to?

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. I think we had to do a monthly report.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In Spanish. And then at the end of the two years, we had to summarize our two year service.

[Assistant] And was that for Peace Corps purposes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. I think we had to do a monthly report.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In Spanish. And then at the end of the two years, we had to summarize our two year service.

[Assistant] And was that for Peace Corps purposes?

[User] Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Not for the ministry of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Spanish. And then at the end of the two years, we had to summarize our two year service.

[Assistant] And was that for Peace Corps purposes?

[User] Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Not for the ministry of?

[User] No, no. Peace Corps. Well, unless they, um, unless they shared it with them.

[Assistant] Well, if they were in Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Not for the ministry of?

[User] No, no. Peace Corps. Well, unless they, um, unless they shared it with them.

[Assistant] Well, if they were in Spanish.

[User] Yeah, it was in Spanish. It had to be in Spanish. I really don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you recall what your, what it was about, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was in Spanish. It had to be in Spanish. I really don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you recall what your, what it was about, I mean?

[User] I have it in this box of mine. I'll have to read and think, you know, and go over what I said. Had I known I was going to be interviewed, I might have, I might have dug through this stuff in a way beforehand. But I sort of, I didn't know whether to get it all out and bore you with it now or just leave it alone.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] No, I'm sure. I'm sure in looking over, it's going to trigger a lot, a lot more things, because this is really off the cuff.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's fine. Toward the end of the second year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have it in this box of mine. I'll have to read and think, you know, and go over what I said. Had I known I was going to be interviewed, I might have, I might have dug through this stuff in a way beforehand. But I sort of, I didn't know whether to get it all out and bore you with it now or just leave it alone.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] No, I'm sure. I'm sure in looking over, it's going to trigger a lot, a lot more things, because this is really off the cuff.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's fine. Toward the end of the second year.

[User] I was counting the days. I was looking forward to going home. I was going to go home via Baton Rouge, Louisiana. My first cousin on my mother's side was getting married, so I was going to stop off. And I remember my cousin. My uncle at the time worried about me showing up at this wedding as a hippie flower child. I mean, you know, they didn't know what to expect. And I was quite proper.

[Assistant] This is '69, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm sure. I'm sure in looking over, it's going to trigger a lot, a lot more things, because this is really off the cuff.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's fine. Toward the end of the second year.

[User] I was counting the days. I was looking forward to going home. I was going to go home via Baton Rouge, Louisiana. My first cousin on my mother's side was getting married, so I was going to stop off. And I remember my cousin. My uncle at the time worried about me showing up at this wedding as a hippie flower child. I mean, you know, they didn't know what to expect. And I was quite proper.

[Assistant] This is '69, right?

[User] This was '69. I mean, I was quite proper. He was so relieved to see me dressed in a nice dress. And, you know, I mean, you know, there was such a. I got a kick out of it.

[Assistant] Well, how did you feel as you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was counting the days. I was looking forward to going home. I was going to go home via Baton Rouge, Louisiana. My first cousin on my mother's side was getting married, so I was going to stop off. And I remember my cousin. My uncle at the time worried about me showing up at this wedding as a hippie flower child. I mean, you know, they didn't know what to expect. And I was quite proper.

[Assistant] This is '69, right?

[User] This was '69. I mean, I was quite proper. He was so relieved to see me dressed in a nice dress. And, you know, I mean, you know, there was such a. I got a kick out of it.

[Assistant] Well, how did you feel as you left?

[User] Guatemala, um.

[Assistant] In relation if you think back to your joining, you know, you didn't have any clear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I felt good. I felt good. I was glad to be going home. I really felt I had accomplished something. I really felt good about myself.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I thought it was the best thing I had ever done for myself.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] In terms of I did something really tough and I survived. It's a great feeling. [tape break] I was ready to come home. I was ready to go on with my life in other ways.

[Assistant] At that point, did you have any clear idea of what you wanted to do or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I knew that was there, so I'd have a means to support myself. And shortly after I got back, I found out about a job through another returned volunteer who had seen it in Washington or something. I ended up getting a job with Sesame Street as a result of my Peace Corps. I had a wonderful career. I was, uh, they were hiring in Philadelphia, community development. They were looking for returned volunteers. I had Spanish. They wanted people to go around in the ghetto and promote the show.

[Assistant] Lovely.

[User] Promote the families, uh, you know, because Joan Cooney, the founder, was trying to close the educational gap.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Having the kids watch it in their living rooms with mom. Well, mom, they didn't want it to be used as a babysitter but.

[Assistant] Who was funding that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Having the kids watch it in their living rooms with mom. Well, mom, they didn't want it to be used as a babysitter but.

[Assistant] Who was funding that?

[User] That was government at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] Yeah. Well, Joan Cooney walked in, you know, and sold her idea and said, we're not only going to make this show, we're going to make sure it gets to the target audience. So to get to the target audience, who's better than a Peace Corps volunteer?

[Assistant] Like a Head Start program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was government at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] Yeah. Well, Joan Cooney walked in, you know, and sold her idea and said, we're not only going to make this show, we're going to make sure it gets to the target audience. So to get to the target audience, who's better than a Peace Corps volunteer?

[Assistant] Like a Head Start program.

[User] Yeah, but we went out and so I did that for a couple of years and that was, I loved that job. Then I got promoted and I went to New York.

[Assistant] That must have felt good though, because it was such a logical extension of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, Joan Cooney walked in, you know, and sold her idea and said, we're not only going to make this show, we're going to make sure it gets to the target audience. So to get to the target audience, who's better than a Peace Corps volunteer?

[Assistant] Like a Head Start program.

[User] Yeah, but we went out and so I did that for a couple of years and that was, I loved that job. Then I got promoted and I went to New York.

[Assistant] That must have felt good though, because it was such a logical extension of.

[User] Yeah, although the Spanish was Spanglish. I mean, Puerto Rican Spanish is, forget it, forget it. But I mean, it was my hometown and I loved it. It was very creative. And I was able to do a lot for my educational background as well as I love kids. And I thrived in that job. And if I hadn't met and married him, I'd be working for them today. I went to New York, yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point, did you think of further education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but we went out and so I did that for a couple of years and that was, I loved that job. Then I got promoted and I went to New York.

[Assistant] That must have felt good though, because it was such a logical extension of.

[User] Yeah, although the Spanish was Spanglish. I mean, Puerto Rican Spanish is, forget it, forget it. But I mean, it was my hometown and I loved it. It was very creative. And I was able to do a lot for my educational background as well as I love kids. And I thrived in that job. And if I hadn't met and married him, I'd be working for them today. I went to New York, yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point, did you think of further education?

[User] Um, no. No, no, I didn't.

[Assistant] What was your, over the first five years back, your continuing connection to Guatemala, if any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, no. No, no, I didn't.

[Assistant] What was your, over the first five years back, your continuing connection to Guatemala, if any?

[User] Yeah. Let me think. Did I, did I write? I think wrote. I wrote to the teacher once in a while and some of the people wrote me then. The downside in a way which hurt me was they all wanted to come and live with me, you know, and I had to say no. I had to say no. There was no way I could have sponsored or supported. And I was really on my own then because my mom was very sickly when I came home, she didn't live too much longer. She was in a nursing home, and so I was living as frugally as I was down there. I was still single. And so. Um, no, I. The job was Sesame Street, was the big chance I got to do. The teaching, I guess I never really was into the teaching. I was too ready to leave it initially to go and join the airlines. I mean, I come from a family of teachers, but I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I did a stint recently before I really retired, I went back into subbing in the Philadelphia system. So that culture shock all over again.

[Assistant] Do you recall your initial reverse culture shock in coming back from? Can you talk about it a little bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Let me think. Did I, did I write? I think wrote. I wrote to the teacher once in a while and some of the people wrote me then. The downside in a way which hurt me was they all wanted to come and live with me, you know, and I had to say no. I had to say no. There was no way I could have sponsored or supported. And I was really on my own then because my mom was very sickly when I came home, she didn't live too much longer. She was in a nursing home, and so I was living as frugally as I was down there. I was still single. And so. Um, no, I. The job was Sesame Street, was the big chance I got to do. The teaching, I guess I never really was into the teaching. I was too ready to leave it initially to go and join the airlines. I mean, I come from a family of teachers, but I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I did a stint recently before I really retired, I went back into subbing in the Philadelphia system. So that culture shock all over again.

[Assistant] Do you recall your initial reverse culture shock in coming back from? Can you talk about it a little bit?

[User] I think it was worse here. I think it was far worse for me to get adjusted back here than it was in Guatemala.

[Assistant] And essentially, you went to the wedding, but you came back to Philadelphia to live.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I did a stint recently before I really retired, I went back into subbing in the Philadelphia system. So that culture shock all over again.

[Assistant] Do you recall your initial reverse culture shock in coming back from? Can you talk about it a little bit?

[User] I think it was worse here. I think it was far worse for me to get adjusted back here than it was in Guatemala.

[Assistant] And essentially, you went to the wedding, but you came back to Philadelphia to live.

[User] Right, right, right. Um, I just remember that the speed, everything was moving so quickly. Joe, hey, we're. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about the reverse culture shock.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was worse here. I think it was far worse for me to get adjusted back here than it was in Guatemala.

[Assistant] And essentially, you went to the wedding, but you came back to Philadelphia to live.

[User] Right, right, right. Um, I just remember that the speed, everything was moving so quickly. Joe, hey, we're. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about the reverse culture shock.

[User] Yes. The speed of everything back here. The, I guess, big city versus the laid-back kind of gentle communication or the exchanges with the people. Good morning. Good evening. That kind of thing.

[Assistant] Do you recall how you dealt with it? Did you seek out returned volunteers or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The speed of everything back here. The, I guess, big city versus the laid-back kind of gentle communication or the exchanges with the people. Good morning. Good evening. That kind of thing.

[Assistant] Do you recall how you dealt with it? Did you seek out returned volunteers or did you?

[User] Yeah, I did. I joined the returned Peace Corps volunteer group at that point and went to some of their meetings. And but again, I don't know why. I don't know why I didn't stick with it, but whatever.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Then I remember driving a car for the first time back here and pulling into a gas station and asking for gas in Spanish. That was a shock. That was a shock because, you know, I mean. Well, that was a big break when you started to dream in Spanish and then you felt you had arrived, you know. But this was a reverse situation there so, um.

[Assistant] But you were using your Spanish even though was a variety.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I did. I joined the returned Peace Corps volunteer group at that point and went to some of their meetings. And but again, I don't know why. I don't know why I didn't stick with it, but whatever.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Then I remember driving a car for the first time back here and pulling into a gas station and asking for gas in Spanish. That was a shock. That was a shock because, you know, I mean. Well, that was a big break when you started to dream in Spanish and then you felt you had arrived, you know. But this was a reverse situation there so, um.

[Assistant] But you were using your Spanish even though was a variety.

[User] Yeah. In the job. In the Peace Corps job, yeah.

[Assistant] No, on Sesame Street.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I remember driving a car for the first time back here and pulling into a gas station and asking for gas in Spanish. That was a shock. That was a shock because, you know, I mean. Well, that was a big break when you started to dream in Spanish and then you felt you had arrived, you know. But this was a reverse situation there so, um.

[Assistant] But you were using your Spanish even though was a variety.

[User] Yeah. In the job. In the Peace Corps job, yeah.

[Assistant] No, on Sesame Street.

[User] Oh, on Sesame Street, excuse me. Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, that's a nice continuation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In the job. In the Peace Corps job, yeah.

[Assistant] No, on Sesame Street.

[User] Oh, on Sesame Street, excuse me. Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, that's a nice continuation.

[User] Oh, yeah. And yeah. And it was a job that I never probably would have been interested in had I not done it.

[Assistant] What led you, you mentioned that it was 20 years later you made a trip back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, on Sesame Street, excuse me. Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, that's a nice continuation.

[User] Oh, yeah. And yeah. And it was a job that I never probably would have been interested in had I not done it.

[Assistant] What led you, you mentioned that it was 20 years later you made a trip back?

[User] Twenty years later. Oh, that was something. Good friends of ours and neighbors suggested it. They went to Mexico every February for R&R. He was a doctor. He is a doctor, retired now. And his wife, Trudy, is a bit of a travel bug. And she suggested, why don't before we go, meaning her and her husband, go to our place in Mexico, that they go to take a side trip to Guatemala. And of course, I knew she wanted to do something along the lines of my former site. And, you know, I had always thought I'd go back. And so I just jumped on it. I said, yeah, I'd love to. So I don't think the men were that excited about it, I think.

[Assistant] Did you try to contact anyone in advance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. And yeah. And it was a job that I never probably would have been interested in had I not done it.

[Assistant] What led you, you mentioned that it was 20 years later you made a trip back?

[User] Twenty years later. Oh, that was something. Good friends of ours and neighbors suggested it. They went to Mexico every February for R&R. He was a doctor. He is a doctor, retired now. And his wife, Trudy, is a bit of a travel bug. And she suggested, why don't before we go, meaning her and her husband, go to our place in Mexico, that they go to take a side trip to Guatemala. And of course, I knew she wanted to do something along the lines of my former site. And, you know, I had always thought I'd go back. And so I just jumped on it. I said, yeah, I'd love to. So I don't think the men were that excited about it, I think.

[Assistant] Did you try to contact anyone in advance?

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. Not in my site, strangely enough, not in my site. But there was an American couple that I had made friends with. Well, he was American. She was Guatemalan, and they were still living there. So I contacted him and asked him, first of all, was it safe? Because things had really gotten bad after I had come back. And he said, Yeah, you're okay. Just have to follow certain rules.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. Not in my site, strangely enough, not in my site. But there was an American couple that I had made friends with. Well, he was American. She was Guatemalan, and they were still living there. So I contacted him and asked him, first of all, was it safe? Because things had really gotten bad after I had come back. And he said, Yeah, you're okay. Just have to follow certain rules.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps still there?

[User] Yeah, it was. But I couldn't find anybody when I went, for the short time we were there. I went to the office. There was a Peace Corps office in town, but it was closed. I mean, when I was there, it was open seven days a week, 24 hours a day almost. But it was closed. It was a weekend.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So they had closed down. And then when we went to Lake Atitlan, I had heard there was a Peace Corps volunteer there and I asked for her and she was off doing some traveling. So I never did connect to any Peace Corps. But when we pulled into my site and it was. I didn't tell anybody. That was very emotional. That was super emotional. Saw my house from the road and I pulled out a scarf. I had this very unruly hair and I used to wear these bandanas around them. So I had one of the ones that I wore down there still. And I, as I got out of the car, I put it around my head and a woman came out, came out of my old house. Oh, senorita, senorita! Well, mucho tears, mucho crying. I mean, I just. It was like a flood with me, and everybody looked the same. I mean, I thought they look so old when I was there, but they all looked the same. They were younger than I was, most of them. But, you know, they just seem so old because they were so hard driven and worked so hard.

[Assistant] Did you jump back into Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was. But I couldn't find anybody when I went, for the short time we were there. I went to the office. There was a Peace Corps office in town, but it was closed. I mean, when I was there, it was open seven days a week, 24 hours a day almost. But it was closed. It was a weekend.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So they had closed down. And then when we went to Lake Atitlan, I had heard there was a Peace Corps volunteer there and I asked for her and she was off doing some traveling. So I never did connect to any Peace Corps. But when we pulled into my site and it was. I didn't tell anybody. That was very emotional. That was super emotional. Saw my house from the road and I pulled out a scarf. I had this very unruly hair and I used to wear these bandanas around them. So I had one of the ones that I wore down there still. And I, as I got out of the car, I put it around my head and a woman came out, came out of my old house. Oh, senorita, senorita! Well, mucho tears, mucho crying. I mean, I just. It was like a flood with me, and everybody looked the same. I mean, I thought they look so old when I was there, but they all looked the same. They were younger than I was, most of them. But, you know, they just seem so old because they were so hard driven and worked so hard.

[Assistant] Did you jump back into Spanish?

[User] Yeah. Oh, sure. Oh yeah. And then while the word got out, you know, somebody went off on their bike. And before I knew it, there was a bunch of people. We went down to the schoolhouse. The teacher had just finished a school and it, mucho hugging.

[Assistant] Was he still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, sure. Oh yeah. And then while the word got out, you know, somebody went off on their bike. And before I knew it, there was a bunch of people. We went down to the schoolhouse. The teacher had just finished a school and it, mucho hugging.

[Assistant] Was he still there?

[User] He was still there. They had the other school teacher there. Then I went back to his house and met his mother-in-law, whom I thought she had to have been 100 when I was there. She looked great, I mean. And a lot of crying, a lot of emotional stuff there. And then, and a lot of exchanges. And one of the nicest little things that happened there. The woman that had come out of my house, her son was living in my house. It was a puesto de salud. It was a health center, OK? So that was good number one. The roads were still dirt.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The teacher had a new shiny pickup truck. He didn't have a vehicle when I was there. Um. And the woman had gone back to her house and came back with an armful of mangoes. I left out an important part of my Peace Corps experience, in that we would have classes for these campesinos that my roommate, the same lady I had gotten on the bus with to go and is still my friend, the one I'm meeting out in Arizona. She's a horticulturalist. She had a skill. She had a specific skill, very apropos for there. So we would get the audience. She'd come out and teach these people how to graft. And on my property, in my house, the finca owner's house, the Germans had gorgeous mango trees. She taught the people how to graft mangoes with ba ba ba ba. Here they had started their own mango grove. They had a nice little business going. And she gives me these big, I mean.

[Assistant] That's very nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was still there. They had the other school teacher there. Then I went back to his house and met his mother-in-law, whom I thought she had to have been 100 when I was there. She looked great, I mean. And a lot of crying, a lot of emotional stuff there. And then, and a lot of exchanges. And one of the nicest little things that happened there. The woman that had come out of my house, her son was living in my house. It was a puesto de salud. It was a health center, OK? So that was good number one. The roads were still dirt.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The teacher had a new shiny pickup truck. He didn't have a vehicle when I was there. Um. And the woman had gone back to her house and came back with an armful of mangoes. I left out an important part of my Peace Corps experience, in that we would have classes for these campesinos that my roommate, the same lady I had gotten on the bus with to go and is still my friend, the one I'm meeting out in Arizona. She's a horticulturalist. She had a skill. She had a specific skill, very apropos for there. So we would get the audience. She'd come out and teach these people how to graft. And on my property, in my house, the finca owner's house, the Germans had gorgeous mango trees. She taught the people how to graft mangoes with ba ba ba ba. Here they had started their own mango grove. They had a nice little business going. And she gives me these big, I mean.

[Assistant] That's very nice.

[User] That made me feel good. And Jeannie knows that story too. So. But anyway, yeah, we went back and I was only there. I mean, I only visited. I wasn't staying in the site.

[Assistant] Did you get to see Eladio?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That made me feel good. And Jeannie knows that story too. So. But anyway, yeah, we went back and I was only there. I mean, I only visited. I wasn't staying in the site.

[Assistant] Did you get to see Eladio?

[User] No, that's when I asked about Eladio and he was in. They said he had moved into Retalhuleu.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And you know, we hadn't allowed a lot of time. I had, I had mixed emotions about going back. You know, it was part of me that was, like, worried about would they remember me? And did I really, you know, did I really leave an impression or was there a legacy or was it, you know, she came and gone, you know? And so I didn't want to, like, pave the way and then not have anybody show up. You know, sort of that kind of fear, to be perfectly honest, that I thought, you know, I'd done so little. But the feelings and emotions that came out just by stopping in. So we were really only there for about an hour and a half all told. One hour and a half, 2 hours. And then we had to move on because we were on a strict driving schedule and we had been told to be careful at that stage of the game in Guatemala, we had to not travel at night.

[Assistant] But your friends must have been very impressed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that's when I asked about Eladio and he was in. They said he had moved into Retalhuleu.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And you know, we hadn't allowed a lot of time. I had, I had mixed emotions about going back. You know, it was part of me that was, like, worried about would they remember me? And did I really, you know, did I really leave an impression or was there a legacy or was it, you know, she came and gone, you know? And so I didn't want to, like, pave the way and then not have anybody show up. You know, sort of that kind of fear, to be perfectly honest, that I thought, you know, I'd done so little. But the feelings and emotions that came out just by stopping in. So we were really only there for about an hour and a half all told. One hour and a half, 2 hours. And then we had to move on because we were on a strict driving schedule and we had been told to be careful at that stage of the game in Guatemala, we had to not travel at night.

[Assistant] But your friends must have been very impressed.

[User] Oh, they were. She's a photographer. She is great. She took great pictures of me, you know, unbeknownst to me, some really good ones. So. Yeah, yeah, they were. They were, she was crying too, Trudy. She was like, it was pretty emotional. And, you know, another little thing that I want to mention is when I was going around and going into all these little huts, whatever you want to call them. Picture of Kennedy, all over. Kennedy's picture was in every one of them.

[Assistant] And that was four years after his death. Almost four. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. My name is Janet Gerardy, and I did my training at Davis, California, and I served in India and our group was India 13.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, Janet, what years? What year did you begin training and when did you go to India and when did you come back?

[User] We began training I think in February, maybe it was March, of 1965 at Davis. It was three months of training. And I remember it was May of '65, 1965, when we went to India, and I terminated in February or March of 1967. And then I traveled home through Asia and arrived back home sometime that summer, I believe.

[Assistant] Okay. What led you to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, my goodness. Well, when I was in junior college, Peace Corps was new, and I had a couple of friends that went before me. And interestingly enough, all of us had had a professor that had been in India in the Second World War and talked a lot about India. So all of us were in love with India. All of us requested India. But one friend went to Cyprus and one friend went to the Philippines and I was the third one to ask for India and I got it so.

[Assistant] Where were you going? Where were you born and where were you living when this happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We began training I think in February, maybe it was March, of 1965 at Davis. It was three months of training. And I remember it was May of '65, 1965, when we went to India, and I terminated in February or March of 1967. And then I traveled home through Asia and arrived back home sometime that summer, I believe.

[Assistant] Okay. What led you to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, my goodness. Well, when I was in junior college, Peace Corps was new, and I had a couple of friends that went before me. And interestingly enough, all of us had had a professor that had been in India in the Second World War and talked a lot about India. So all of us were in love with India. All of us requested India. But one friend went to Cyprus and one friend went to the Philippines and I was the third one to ask for India and I got it so.

[Assistant] Where were you going? Where were you born and where were you living when this happened?

[User] I was born in Colorado, but I didn't grow up in Colorado. I grew up in Kansas. And then my parents had moved back to Colorado and I was living in La Junta, Colorado, southern Colorado. I went to the junior college there and I had finished the junior college and was sort of at odds as to what to do next, did not have money to go on to college. So that was also a way of getting a little money to go on to college. But it was a way of getting out of my hometown and going off and doing something. But I had also always wanted to travel.

[Assistant] What kinds of skills did you see yourself bringing to the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, my goodness. Well, when I was in junior college, Peace Corps was new, and I had a couple of friends that went before me. And interestingly enough, all of us had had a professor that had been in India in the Second World War and talked a lot about India. So all of us were in love with India. All of us requested India. But one friend went to Cyprus and one friend went to the Philippines and I was the third one to ask for India and I got it so.

[Assistant] Where were you going? Where were you born and where were you living when this happened?

[User] I was born in Colorado, but I didn't grow up in Colorado. I grew up in Kansas. And then my parents had moved back to Colorado and I was living in La Junta, Colorado, southern Colorado. I went to the junior college there and I had finished the junior college and was sort of at odds as to what to do next, did not have money to go on to college. So that was also a way of getting a little money to go on to college. But it was a way of getting out of my hometown and going off and doing something. But I had also always wanted to travel.

[Assistant] What kinds of skills did you see yourself bringing to the Peace Corps?

[User] I guess I do, I don't recall thinking a lot about that at that age. Um. I think I was just more interested in travel. I had always been interested in people and people from other cultures. We had had students from other cultures at the college in La Junta, and I certainly was surprised by the project I got offered because that was a poultry project. I did not grow up on a farm. I had never picked up a chicken. So I probably was more interested in languages and teaching and that sort of thing. And looking back from this point, I can see more what my skills were because I've always taught something. You know, in high school I taught swimming and now I teach ESL. But you know, I think I've always been teaching something all of my life.

[Assistant] Were you involved in 4-H at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Colorado, but I didn't grow up in Colorado. I grew up in Kansas. And then my parents had moved back to Colorado and I was living in La Junta, Colorado, southern Colorado. I went to the junior college there and I had finished the junior college and was sort of at odds as to what to do next, did not have money to go on to college. So that was also a way of getting a little money to go on to college. But it was a way of getting out of my hometown and going off and doing something. But I had also always wanted to travel.

[Assistant] What kinds of skills did you see yourself bringing to the Peace Corps?

[User] I guess I do, I don't recall thinking a lot about that at that age. Um. I think I was just more interested in travel. I had always been interested in people and people from other cultures. We had had students from other cultures at the college in La Junta, and I certainly was surprised by the project I got offered because that was a poultry project. I did not grow up on a farm. I had never picked up a chicken. So I probably was more interested in languages and teaching and that sort of thing. And looking back from this point, I can see more what my skills were because I've always taught something. You know, in high school I taught swimming and now I teach ESL. But you know, I think I've always been teaching something all of my life.

[Assistant] Were you involved in 4-H at all?

[User] No, never. Never.

[Assistant] How did your family react? How did your friends react?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I do, I don't recall thinking a lot about that at that age. Um. I think I was just more interested in travel. I had always been interested in people and people from other cultures. We had had students from other cultures at the college in La Junta, and I certainly was surprised by the project I got offered because that was a poultry project. I did not grow up on a farm. I had never picked up a chicken. So I probably was more interested in languages and teaching and that sort of thing. And looking back from this point, I can see more what my skills were because I've always taught something. You know, in high school I taught swimming and now I teach ESL. But you know, I think I've always been teaching something all of my life.

[Assistant] Were you involved in 4-H at all?

[User] No, never. Never.

[Assistant] How did your family react? How did your friends react?

[User] Uh, I think most people were kind of in admiration and excited and probably envious and certainly lots of friends over the years have looked at it that way. I think they look at it as something they would have liked to have done, but see it as an impossibility or something. I'm actually surprised that my parents as I get older because I think my mother let go and let me do things very easily. But I think I would have trouble doing that as a parent, letting a young girl go off. But then I know it's over there and she probably didn't so.

[Assistant] What was the Peace Corps process like, the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, never. Never.

[Assistant] How did your family react? How did your friends react?

[User] Uh, I think most people were kind of in admiration and excited and probably envious and certainly lots of friends over the years have looked at it that way. I think they look at it as something they would have liked to have done, but see it as an impossibility or something. I'm actually surprised that my parents as I get older because I think my mother let go and let me do things very easily. But I think I would have trouble doing that as a parent, letting a young girl go off. But then I know it's over there and she probably didn't so.

[Assistant] What was the Peace Corps process like, the application process?

[User] I don't remember very much about the application process. I remember more about the training and I remember deselection was a big thing at that point.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember very much about the application process. I remember more about the training and I remember deselection was a big thing at that point.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that.

[User] Oh my goodness. Well, ours was a very large group, I think, I don't really know, but I think it was around 250 people that trained together. And it was wonderful because it was spring and summer and Davis, California, is a lovely place and we all had bicycles and we could bike around the town and get together. So it was really fun. But everyone was very afraid of being deselected. I do remember that. And I remember we had big deselection interviews and I remember the interview. They asked me, well, what's a girl from a little tiny town like you are wanting to go overseas for? And I thought, well, what a strange question. You know, for me it was strange because I had always wanted to go overseas and I didn't see any difference being from a small town or anything else. But apparently they did. And I had worked at a drugstore in my hometown, and I do remember they came and interviewed the boss of the drugstore, who then later told me that's what he had been doing and I was, you know, it's like having an FBI checkup or something. You sort of wonder if.

[Assistant] It was.

[User] It probably was. But, you know, you sort of wonder why they're looking at you and things like that. So to me, it was strange.

[Assistant] Did you, were you afraid you'd be deselected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not that I knew where to get or go. The teachers and the principal eventually brought some Indian doctor and he said that I needed to be kept cooler and I needed to drink more liquids. So I remember they would squeeze by hand oranges and give me this orange juice and they would bring ice, which you had to buy in a great big block. And they put it in a tub and put a fan behind it to blow toward me to lower the temperature of the room. I don't think it did much of that, but anyway. I didn't actually find out until my time of terminating that they had paid for this out of their own money. And at the very end of my two years, then they were saying, we hate to ask you this, but they needed to ask for that small amount of money back.

[Assistant] To be reimbursed?

[User] So, you know, yeah, to be reimbursed. So, you know, lots of things that you don't know how to do when you first get there. And I think I was very lucky to have their help because I think it's very easy to die of tropical diseases. And who knows what I really had. It may have just been dehydration, but that can make you very ill.

[Assistant] Was there a Peace Corps medical help available at all or how did that?

[User] There was a Peace Corps doctor in New Delhi. But, uh, you know, I don't even remember if I knew that at the time. But, you know, eventually then, of course, if we had something, we could go to New Delhi.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you were treasured.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know, yeah, to be reimbursed. So, you know, lots of things that you don't know how to do when you first get there. And I think I was very lucky to have their help because I think it's very easy to die of tropical diseases. And who knows what I really had. It may have just been dehydration, but that can make you very ill.

[Assistant] Was there a Peace Corps medical help available at all or how did that?

[User] There was a Peace Corps doctor in New Delhi. But, uh, you know, I don't even remember if I knew that at the time. But, you know, eventually then, of course, if we had something, we could go to New Delhi.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you were treasured.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] By that time, were you communicating well? Did you feel comfortable with the language? You said that there was a difference between the language you had been taught and the language that was being spoken where you were assigned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a Peace Corps doctor in New Delhi. But, uh, you know, I don't even remember if I knew that at the time. But, you know, eventually then, of course, if we had something, we could go to New Delhi.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you were treasured.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] By that time, were you communicating well? Did you feel comfortable with the language? You said that there was a difference between the language you had been taught and the language that was being spoken where you were assigned.

[User] No, I don't think I'm that good in Hindi or Punjabi, even at the end of my two years. Of course, you get where you can get by and buy things in the market and things like that. But I was never fluent. But one reason you don't become fluent is that a lot of people that are educated in India speak English. That's not true out, well, it may be now, but out in the villages you did not find people at that time that spoke English. But all of these people that were teachers and the veterinarian that were attached to the center could speak English.

[Assistant] What was the typical day like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really don't know. It's like I know that the male volunteers that had been there before were highly respected, which made it easier for me to come. And they had started youth groups, was my understanding, out in the villages, but I actually was not given like from Peace Corps, as I recall, very much information about that. And I don't remember the Indians telling me very much about those youth groups or anything. When I went with that second veterinarian that came, we sometimes went out where some of his trainees had started youth groups and they had distributed day-old chicks. And I remember because we would go out and find chicks hanging, you know, in baskets like a bird cage and under baskets and in all kinds of crazy situations that, you know, they didn't always know how to care for them, or in trying to protect them from getting eaten by dogs or other things, they did things that we wouldn't have approved of. But I don't remember knowing very much about what the volunteers that came before me had done.

[Assistant] The veterinarian that you went out with, his youth groups that his trainees had set up, were they all male or were they?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yes. And I don't remember any girl youth groups or anything like that. And I guess it never occurred to me to start those, looking back. Um, hmm. Interesting.

[Assistant] But yet when you, in the training group, you were asked, rather at the training center, you were asked to train women or you worked with women? Or maybe I didn't quite understand how that went.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yes. And I don't remember any girl youth groups or anything like that. And I guess it never occurred to me to start those, looking back. Um, hmm. Interesting.

[Assistant] But yet when you, in the training group, you were asked, rather at the training center, you were asked to train women or you worked with women? Or maybe I didn't quite understand how that went.

[User] Well, I think neither the Indian people on the staff at the gram sevak training center nor I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing there. And so I think just in exploring the possibilities, they asked me to work with some of the women staff and give some lectures on poultry to them. And I think in turn they gave some of those lectures to the women trainees. You know, whether any of that ever did anything or not, I don't know. And, you know, again, in going to the village, you would just meet different circumstances in different villages. And there were several villages where he would introduce me to a young lady in the village, but the particular village where I ended up, I just made, for whatever reasons, a good connection with the principal of the elementary school there who was interested in helping and having a woman teacher there. And that helped. And then the particular young lady that they introduced me in that village probably was my best friend in India later.

[Assistant] Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about how you went out to the village. This was in your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I don't remember any girl youth groups or anything like that. And I guess it never occurred to me to start those, looking back. Um, hmm. Interesting.

[Assistant] But yet when you, in the training group, you were asked, rather at the training center, you were asked to train women or you worked with women? Or maybe I didn't quite understand how that went.

[User] Well, I think neither the Indian people on the staff at the gram sevak training center nor I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing there. And so I think just in exploring the possibilities, they asked me to work with some of the women staff and give some lectures on poultry to them. And I think in turn they gave some of those lectures to the women trainees. You know, whether any of that ever did anything or not, I don't know. And, you know, again, in going to the village, you would just meet different circumstances in different villages. And there were several villages where he would introduce me to a young lady in the village, but the particular village where I ended up, I just made, for whatever reasons, a good connection with the principal of the elementary school there who was interested in helping and having a woman teacher there. And that helped. And then the particular young lady that they introduced me in that village probably was my best friend in India later.

[Assistant] Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about how you went out to the village. This was in your second year?

[User] Well, we went, you mean when I moved to a village?

[Assistant] When you moved to a village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think neither the Indian people on the staff at the gram sevak training center nor I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing there. And so I think just in exploring the possibilities, they asked me to work with some of the women staff and give some lectures on poultry to them. And I think in turn they gave some of those lectures to the women trainees. You know, whether any of that ever did anything or not, I don't know. And, you know, again, in going to the village, you would just meet different circumstances in different villages. And there were several villages where he would introduce me to a young lady in the village, but the particular village where I ended up, I just made, for whatever reasons, a good connection with the principal of the elementary school there who was interested in helping and having a woman teacher there. And that helped. And then the particular young lady that they introduced me in that village probably was my best friend in India later.

[Assistant] Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about how you went out to the village. This was in your second year?

[User] Well, we went, you mean when I moved to a village?

[Assistant] When you moved to a village.

[User] Yeah, that was in the second year, as I recall.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the village? What, how did that work? How did that come about? And why did you want to move and what did you do when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't really recall. I suppose that they either just called the center and we were informed that we had to go to Delhi or something like that. I don't really remember how I got the notice. And then, you know, but people from all of the Punjab area were called in. And I remember after that one of the Peace Corps boys in my group had been stationed up at Amritsar on the border, near the border, and they didn't allow him to go back to that area. And he then was stationed at the same town of Nabha at the government poultry farm. So that ended up being a very good friend that I could occasionally share meals with or ride bicycles with and so forth.

[Assistant] Were you afraid, when you were?

[User] Uh, I think I was too young to be afraid. You're sort of invulnerable at that age. But I do remember when we were in New Delhi at the hostel, which they had there, because it was very hot we would put our beds up on top of the roof and sleep outside. And I remember on one of the nights we were awakened in the middle of the night and we heard like gunfire. And I remember that people from around the area in New Delhi would come around and make sure that the lights were all off and that you were observing blackout and had the blackout curtains up and things like that. But other than that, one time of hearing some gunfire or something, which was probably from planes in the air, I don't remember being afraid. But I remember people in New Delhi were kind of nervous and afraid, and afraid of foreigners, and people would be afraid that maybe we were Pakistanis. I don't think they even realize fully what a Pakistani looked like.

[Assistant] How did the people in the training site react when Peace Corps evacuated you?

[User] I don't remember much about that. I think we were just so happy for a lot of us to be together again in a hostel that we were enjoying the time in New Delhi and not very aware of those things.

[Assistant] Then when you went back, how did, how did that happen, that you went back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I think I was too young to be afraid. You're sort of invulnerable at that age. But I do remember when we were in New Delhi at the hostel, which they had there, because it was very hot we would put our beds up on top of the roof and sleep outside. And I remember on one of the nights we were awakened in the middle of the night and we heard like gunfire. And I remember that people from around the area in New Delhi would come around and make sure that the lights were all off and that you were observing blackout and had the blackout curtains up and things like that. But other than that, one time of hearing some gunfire or something, which was probably from planes in the air, I don't remember being afraid. But I remember people in New Delhi were kind of nervous and afraid, and afraid of foreigners, and people would be afraid that maybe we were Pakistanis. I don't think they even realize fully what a Pakistani looked like.

[Assistant] How did the people in the training site react when Peace Corps evacuated you?

[User] I don't remember much about that. I think we were just so happy for a lot of us to be together again in a hostel that we were enjoying the time in New Delhi and not very aware of those things.

[Assistant] Then when you went back, how did, how did that happen, that you went back?

[User] I don't know whether the fighting stopped, but eventually we were sent back and I don't remember much about that either, to tell you the truth.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, what was your? We were talking about leisure when you mentioned kind of as an aside, you've been evacuated because of violence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember much about that. I think we were just so happy for a lot of us to be together again in a hostel that we were enjoying the time in New Delhi and not very aware of those things.

[Assistant] Then when you went back, how did, how did that happen, that you went back?

[User] I don't know whether the fighting stopped, but eventually we were sent back and I don't remember much about that either, to tell you the truth.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, what was your? We were talking about leisure when you mentioned kind of as an aside, you've been evacuated because of violence.

[User]
Right. Um. Yeah. You were asking me if it was mostly with people locally. When I stayed there the first year, yeah, it was all with people that were local. And, you know, sometimes the women got together to sing songs and do music. I think they had kind of an accordion or something like that that they played. And, uh, what else did we do for entertainment? You know, just visiting mostly and taking walks, lots of long walks and things in the evening. And oh, that was one thing I do remember about the difference between males and females is because Indians often, when you go for a walk, hold hands. And I wasn't bothered by another woman holding my hand, but the male volunteers were usually very bothered by a male Indian wanting to hold their hand.

But anyway, as far as leisure, you know, singing is a popular group activity and it's kind of assumed that people can sing. And I'm not considered a good singer here and therefore I don't know many songs. So I remember I often sang Christmas songs when I was asked to, you know, do my share of the singing. But it was fun being with the other people that were just the trainees and things.

[Assistant] And then did that change? Were there, did Peace Corps volunteers come into the area and did you meet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know whether the fighting stopped, but eventually we were sent back and I don't remember much about that either, to tell you the truth.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, what was your? We were talking about leisure when you mentioned kind of as an aside, you've been evacuated because of violence.

[User]
Right. Um. Yeah. You were asking me if it was mostly with people locally. When I stayed there the first year, yeah, it was all with people that were local. And, you know, sometimes the women got together to sing songs and do music. I think they had kind of an accordion or something like that that they played. And, uh, what else did we do for entertainment? You know, just visiting mostly and taking walks, lots of long walks and things in the evening. And oh, that was one thing I do remember about the difference between males and females is because Indians often, when you go for a walk, hold hands. And I wasn't bothered by another woman holding my hand, but the male volunteers were usually very bothered by a male Indian wanting to hold their hand.

But anyway, as far as leisure, you know, singing is a popular group activity and it's kind of assumed that people can sing. And I'm not considered a good singer here and therefore I don't know many songs. So I remember I often sang Christmas songs when I was asked to, you know, do my share of the singing. But it was fun being with the other people that were just the trainees and things.

[Assistant] And then did that change? Were there, did Peace Corps volunteers come into the area and did you meet?

[User] There was a girl that had been trained in a kitchen gardening project and originally been in Rajasthan. [coughs] Excuse me. And she was not very happy there for some reasons. And so they sent her to my area, and this is when I was just beginning to move out into the village. So we did a kitchen garden demonstration project outside in that area that I had talked about, outside the gateway.

[Assistant] I get the impression that you were very happy while you were there. Is that my impression or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a girl that had been trained in a kitchen gardening project and originally been in Rajasthan. [coughs] Excuse me. And she was not very happy there for some reasons. And so they sent her to my area, and this is when I was just beginning to move out into the village. So we did a kitchen garden demonstration project outside in that area that I had talked about, outside the gateway.

[Assistant] I get the impression that you were very happy while you were there. Is that my impression or?

[User] I think that's the impression that one has after any travel, when you come back and look at it in retrospect. Um, I don't think I was unhappy there, although I think there was some very difficult times. You know, I think I'm a person that's generally happy by my nature. But there were lots of difficult times too.

[Assistant] What are those difficult times, do you think?

[User] [clears throat] I'm sorry, I've got to catch. Um. I think, first of all, when you're stationed somewhere by yourself and in a different culture, it can be very lonely and you have to depend on your own resources. It's not always clear what you're supposed to be doing, and therefore sometimes you don't feel like you're accomplishing much and that this is a very old culture that's not changing very fast and your impact's not a lot. And, you know, a lot of my leisure time was spent just reading or things like that because you just don't know what you're supposed to be doing.

[Assistant] Were you? Here we go. Janet, where did you get the books? You're talking about doing a lot of reading. What kind of reading material was available? How did you get it? Was it pertinent to the work you were doing or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 23, I think, when I, uh, I think I was 22 when training started and 23 before that finished and 25 then when I terminated.

[Assistant] And did you have any romantic attachment?

[User] Many.

[Assistant] Do tell.

[User] Well, I'm not sure I'm going to put all of those on the tape.

[Assistant] Just to give an idea of how.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many.

[Assistant] Do tell.

[User] Well, I'm not sure I'm going to put all of those on the tape.

[Assistant] Just to give an idea of how.

[User] No, I think at that age you're often attracted to other people. And there were several of the volunteers that I was attracted to. There was a little group of us that often traveled together. At the time, there wasn't any romantic involvement. But Tom O'Connor, who was the one that was stationed there with me, who was about ten years older, I think he was very attracted to me. And I remember when we were in New Delhi with the evacuation process, you know, the Peace Corps wanted us to keep a little bit busy. And so they sent us over to paint the doctor's house. And there were several of us and I remember.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps doctor's house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm not sure I'm going to put all of those on the tape.

[Assistant] Just to give an idea of how.

[User] No, I think at that age you're often attracted to other people. And there were several of the volunteers that I was attracted to. There was a little group of us that often traveled together. At the time, there wasn't any romantic involvement. But Tom O'Connor, who was the one that was stationed there with me, who was about ten years older, I think he was very attracted to me. And I remember when we were in New Delhi with the evacuation process, you know, the Peace Corps wanted us to keep a little bit busy. And so they sent us over to paint the doctor's house. And there were several of us and I remember.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps doctor's house?

[User] Yeah, the Peace Corps doctor's, the interior of his house. So there was a small group from my original group that were over there painting the house, and something got said about dating and things. And I made the comment that I only like to date people my age, not somebody a whole lot older. And later, Jane, uh, I can't think of Jane's last name, but she was the one that did the goat project, made the comment that she thought I had hurt Tom's feelings. And I wasn't aware that he liked me at that time, but obviously he did. And then, uh, but Tom O'Connor was kind of my buddy that often traveled when we went to conferences around the country. And Kurt and Lois, Kurt Nelson, who was the artist and his wife Lois, often the ones that traveled with us. And then there was a tall guy, Bill Moore, that was stationed up in the Kullu Valley that often traveled with us. But anyway, at various times I was attracted to various people, and Bill Moore was one of those people.

[Assistant] And what happened after Peace Corps? Did those relationships continue or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I went, I stayed for 15 months, but I was one of the lucky ones. They had four teachers there and originally I went for three months, came back at Christmas. The teacher who had been sick came back, but then another teacher quit. So I went for another six months. Then the whole project got renewed for a year, so I went for that second year. So I ended up teaching three terms, students at an oil company there, and I loved it. Great experience.

[Assistant] How was China different from India? How was that experience different from the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I actually expected it to be very similar. And I went on in October, and the very 1st of October is a holiday in China. And so I got to spend one day in Beijing looking around. Of course, Beijing is a very large city. And then I was picked up by a driver and taken out to Tangshan, the town where I was to be. And on the way I kept looking at the towns and villages we passed, expecting them to look somewhat like India, like little villages in Asia, because I had read Pearl Buck and expected them to look similar, but actually they looked very different. It was the fall of the year and they were harvesting corn and, you know, it was very dusty as they were processing these. And the villages were like little concrete block things along the road and not that beautiful adobe thing that you see in India. Later I visited an area in the south of China and it did look more like India there, but I didn't get much chance to get out actually into the villages. But it's just a very different look. It looks more like little truck stops along the way.

[Assistant] How did the people treat you as you had been treated in India?

[User] Well, they certainly treated me very well, especially because I literally went there, not even knowing how to say hello in Chinese. And I had 14 students and all of my students were college graduates. And I understand that at that time that was about 5 percent of the population in China.

[Assistant] What year would this have been?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I signed on to a letter that went out.

[Assistant] Maybe that’s what I’m thinking of.

[User] That was a big debate on my part because there were parts of the letter that I was very strongly in support of and parts of the letter that I was not strongly in support of. It’s always a difficulty. Somebody presents you with a letter that you didn’t write yourself. There’s no chance to change it, you’re just being asked to sign on to it. There was more in it that I liked than I didn’t like. After going a few rounds with the authors, I decided to sign on. The good news of that was they had something like seven Nobel laureates as the first signature. So no one has noticed that I’ve actually signed on to that letter. At least nobody that I think matters has noticed that I signed on to that. But I still do that sort of thing.\n\n I don’t like to do it that way because as I say you always end up with these letters where you’re saying well I really think this is wrong, this is not right. But 75 percent of the letter I agree with. You’re not allowed to file a minority position. They’re looking for signatures on these things.

[Assistant] Can’t initial it.

[User] That’s right. Can’t initial these things. So I turned it down twice. There was a certain pleading. I joined the crowd. I did, but as I said, there were parts of it that I just wish I hadn’t—I don’t want to be necessarily associated with it. But there’s more that I was happy to be associated with.

[Assistant] You were able to spend time as an administrator. You’ve also spent time as a PI [principal investigator] as part of the Space Studies Board. Where do you feel that you’ve been able to contribute the most to the field of space science?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I suspect—in the science portion or the administrative side?

[Assistant] Both.

[User] Well, on the administrative side, certainly the Hubble was the one that required whatever skill I had to bail out the agency. That was the biggest management—it wasn’t a management challenge, it was just a challenge. Because we were in such a deep hole. Of course it had a happy ending, and everybody thinks Hubble is a wonderful success and America’s telescope and all that stuff. Only a few people remember the beginning. So that’s the ultimate success story.\n\n On the science side, the good news is I’m a theorist that creates explanations for—what I really prefer is for new phenomena. Fortunately about every five years somebody measures something that’s new and I jump in and offer an explanation, many of which seem to have been right. So that’s why the science has been good. There is a challenge that all theoreticians face at this point in their life, which is when do you realize that you’re not as good as you used to be, and do you retire with dignity before you embarrass yourself, and do you count on your colleagues to tell you that you’re not what you used to be. It happens. Theoretical physics is not something you get to do for your whole life usually. So you have to be careful to know when to retire from the stage. Can’t bring myself to do that yet, but I’m not sure I’m not skating near the edge here of when it’s going to start, when it’s not going to be as good as it was.

[Assistant] Well, I guess a good thing for you is there always will be unknowns to theorize on.

[User] Whether I guess right the next time, that’s a good challenge.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Jennifer. Did you have any questions or any thoughts for Dr. Fisk?

I have one question. But I don’t know. It may be a simple question or it may be a very long answer. Were you involved at all in the decision to get rid of the Centaur for planetary missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We see them a lot. We just went down last weekend on a trip with them. He was a good example. He came in as Abbey’s golden boy and then kind of fell off the page. No one knows why. Abbey is famous for that. He was a very unusual character. Did you talk to Abbey at all? [Laughs]

[Assistant] No. We would like to.

[User] Really? He won’t talk to you?

[Assistant] He has not participated, no.

[User] Really. He’s the mystery man of the whole program. We used to laugh so hard. They never knew who he was, and they’d show these pictures when we’d come off the Shuttle. There would be all the crew, and an unidentified NASA official. We’d laugh and go, “Yup, there’s George.” [Laughs] He looks just like Alfred Hitchcock, anyway. He is really a character. He was probably the character of the program.

[Assistant] I’m curious. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book [\n\n Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\n\n ] that came out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? He won’t talk to you?

[Assistant] He has not participated, no.

[User] Really. He’s the mystery man of the whole program. We used to laugh so hard. They never knew who he was, and they’d show these pictures when we’d come off the Shuttle. There would be all the crew, and an unidentified NASA official. We’d laugh and go, “Yup, there’s George.” [Laughs] He looks just like Alfred Hitchcock, anyway. He is really a character. He was probably the character of the program.

[Assistant] I’m curious. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book [\n\n Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\n\n ] that came out?

[User] Yes. I thought it was horrible. He had a bunch of stories he was going to tell about my wife. My wife is pretty colorful, and she just told him, she said, “Mike, if you print any of those things, I’ll kill you personally.” I like Mike; he’s a very good friend. But that’s the kind of thing that I just said I will never do is go around and sell stories and make up things. Mike’s first book [\n\n Red Sky: A Novel of Love, Space, and War\n\n ] that came out was probably the worst piece of junk I ever read in my life. I don’t know if you’ve read that.

[Assistant] Is it how do you go to the bathroom in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I thought it was horrible. He had a bunch of stories he was going to tell about my wife. My wife is pretty colorful, and she just told him, she said, “Mike, if you print any of those things, I’ll kill you personally.” I like Mike; he’s a very good friend. But that’s the kind of thing that I just said I will never do is go around and sell stories and make up things. Mike’s first book [\n\n Red Sky: A Novel of Love, Space, and War\n\n ] that came out was probably the worst piece of junk I ever read in my life. I don’t know if you’ve read that.

[Assistant] Is it how do you go to the bathroom in space?

[User] No, no, it was some Russian spy story that was absolute trash. It was foul. It was really amazing that he ever got it published. This one was better, but I didn’t like it. I, of course, know everybody; I know all the stories. So it’s one of these things you look at, and I just said, “Why would you write something like this?” Especially my wife just couldn’t believe he was telling stories about his wife and having an abortion and all that. I mean, this kind of stuff, it was just weird, you know, I thought.\n\n Some of the guys loved it that came out the heroes, but that really weren’t. Mike had a vision of the world that was unlike about anybody I know, and it came across in his book, I thought. But I don’t know. I read it, but I didn’t much love it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, if you don’t mind, I was going to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you before we close.

[User] Okay, good.

[Assistant] Anything else you think that we haven’t covered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [nods agreement]

[Assistant] And I think that’s what you’re saying.

[User] Yeah; yeah; yeah.

[Assistant] Well, Apollo 1’s lessons were learned. And in a remarkably short time they were ready to fly again.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And when fly they did, they had quite a crew, didn’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And “In the beginning” came back to Earth on Christmas Eve.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And after that it was time for—

[User] One thing. You know, the thing that there’s some—the beauty of the thing for me is, I was Division Chief at this time. And I came to the point where running the Division and flight directing, I couldn’t do everything. Well, as it was, I was lucky because if I had been a Flight Director working on Apollo 8, I couldn’t do my job. I was so absolutely mesmerized as that spacecraft went around the Moon. It was—I was just—and then the crew starting reading from the book of Genesis. I mean, I was so emotionally tied into that thing, I couldn’t have made a decision if I needed to.

[Assistant] In a peculiar way it was great that that was the crew that followed Apollo 7.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And after that it was time for—

[User] One thing. You know, the thing that there’s some—the beauty of the thing for me is, I was Division Chief at this time. And I came to the point where running the Division and flight directing, I couldn’t do everything. Well, as it was, I was lucky because if I had been a Flight Director working on Apollo 8, I couldn’t do my job. I was so absolutely mesmerized as that spacecraft went around the Moon. It was—I was just—and then the crew starting reading from the book of Genesis. I mean, I was so emotionally tied into that thing, I couldn’t have made a decision if I needed to.

[Assistant] In a peculiar way it was great that that was the crew that followed Apollo 7.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] On [Apollo] 7, Wally had his problems. And on [Apollo] 8 they made up for them in spades.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] On [Apollo] 7, Wally had his problems. And on [Apollo] 8 they made up for them in spades.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Didn’t they?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But, of course, all of that was wonderful scene-setting. You had achieved escape velocity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Didn’t they?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But, of course, all of that was wonderful scene-setting. You had achieved escape velocity.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] We knew that could be done. But you still had that LM to check out, and you had an engineer like [James A.] McDivitt to fly a mission for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They showed up in the mail. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Really. Okay, there’s no ceremony?

[User] Not that I recall, no. No. Somewhere along the line the Astronaut Office gave me a gold pin that was flown on a mission to signify going from the unflown to the flown astronaut, silver to gold. But I don’t remember if it was anything other than maybe at an Astronaut Office Monday morning meeting and, you know, “Here’s your pin. Congratulations.” But relative to anything with the Air Force and the Astronaut Wings, I’m not sure we did anything special.\n\n We did go up to Air Force Headquarters [Pentagon, Washington, D.C.]. We did meet with the Vice Chief of Staff at the time, and maybe he did pin them on us at that time. Now I’m remembering, because van Hoften and Lounge were there, and I do remember we were all in uniform. I don’t know if they gave us a medal or if he gave us our Astronaut Wings, which had flown on the mission. That may have been what it was. That was a long time ago. I’ve forgot it.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But that may have been—I’ve got pictures of that. Now I’m thinking about those pictures and saying, “Okay, what was it? What was it that he was pinning on me? Was it a medal or was it the Astronaut Wings?” Probably it was the wings; I doubt that they had the medals squared away by then. So it was a visit back to the Pentagon—it may have been only the second time in my life I had ever been in the Pentagon—and got them squared away. That must have been it. Joe Engle probably arranged that.

[Assistant] That’s nice of him. After this flight you ended up being CapCom [Capsule Communicator] for three more flights. Do you want to talk about the first two, [STS] 61-B and [STS] 61-C? Anything stand out from those two flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes. So I think all of the blue training suits may be gone, but if you look back at the pictures of the STS-26 crew and some later crews doing their training over in the water, they’re in blue suits. That’s because the early ones that were developed were made out of that blue material, then they became the training suits when they went to the orange ones, and by the time we flew, we were in orange ones. That’s what we flew.

[Assistant] We’ll have to go back and look at some of the digital pictures and see what we can find.

[User] Yes, you go back and look at the STS-26 crew training. Even some of the artwork that I see has us in those blue suits, because that’s what we started out in is training in those things.

[Assistant] Interesting. Well, we need to take a break for a second to change our tape.

[User] Okay.\n\n [Tape change]

[Assistant] What was the mood like at JSC as you were preparing for your flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did, but I don’t remember anything particularly unique about the Earth observations, other than, you know, we had more time to do it on others because we didn’t have a whole lot of things we had to do after we deployed the TDRS. After we got to orbit, the biggest part of the flight, the test flight, was over, and so there just remained to do that. So we had lots of opportunities to take pictures. I have to go back and look sometime, and see if there’s anything unique that we took.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about landing? Did this landing stand out in any way to you?

[User] Very similar to the first landing. Of course, we landed again at Edwards. I was fortunate to fly with two great commanders, who just did a good job of flying the Orbiter around and landing it. One of the things about entries is that the most remarkable parts of them are actually flying down and touching down, and then coming through the high-heating regions of the atmosphere and the trajectory. But from one flight to the next, they’re pretty much the same; not a whole lot of difference in those.\n\n It was a bright, clear day at Edwards. There weren’t a lot of clouds or anything like that. When we talk about the landings of my other missions, there will be a different story, different scenario. It was different then. Maybe it was because I was flying. [Laughs] But maybe not. But as a pilot, watching a guy fly and putting the landing gear down and rolling out on the lakebed, we were just ready to high-five each other and go see our families and celebrate a great return to flight.

[Assistant] It’s almost five, but I had a couple more questions for you. Can I go ahead and ask, or would you prefer that we wait till next time?

[User] If you think that we’ll get to a good breaking point on STS-26, we can go ahead a little bit.

[Assistant] Okay. I understand that Fletcher and Vice President [George H. W.] Bush were there when you stepped out. Did you know that they were going to be there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't Scott. Oh, boy.

[Assistant] Yes, it was Scott.

[User] Dave Scott was with them? Okay. Scott took the later one, yes. You look at those pictures, they're going like a 78 RPM [revolutions per minute] record. Well, you're too young to understand 78 RPM records, even probably 33s. How he knew where to reach and fire those retrofire pack and bring that thing under control and take a series of photos was very interesting. When they came back, I'd always get them to autograph a picture for me. When Armstrong autographed the one for me hitting the Agena, he said, "To Dick Underwood—Next time I'll do better." We didn't know what next time was going to be. [Laughter] But the pictures were of great value from the operational standpoint.\n\n Then on the next flight, the Agena failed and they put that [augmented target] docking adapter [ADTA] up there, and the nose cone didn't come off. They took a series of pictures on why the failure happened on the nose cone on the wiring operation, which was used to admonish the contractor. The contractor was saying that a space photo's not legal in law courts.\n\n Then, of course, [Gemini] XI did it great. They even had a tether line hooked up to the Agena and were going round and round like this [Underwood gestures]. Unbelievable series of photographs. And XII did a similar thing. That ended Gemini at that point.

[Assistant] I read that you were able to get cameras on the unmanned Apollos for public affairs purposes.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that and the results?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In space? Or in Earth orbit?

[Assistant] Just on their missions in general. What preparations did you have as far as preparing the equipment, the cameras, and what facilities? I know you developed a lab.

[User] Yes, I was the only supervisory aerospace technologist in that whole directorate, and that made a lot of people unhappy. They kept trying to fire one supervisory aerospace technologist in the directory, and I was the only one. But Gilruth and Low and other people were on my side, so it never worked out. They said they wanted me in that directorate so I could have direct access to the processors and the film and all these other things, and interface with the astronauts. I didn't do any real work in photographic techtometry lab other than interface with the people there on situations, and directly with the astronauts and people in Building 4 and the ninth floor of Building 1, who were really the ones who protected me through the whole system of management there at that particular point, and [NASA] Headquarters. Mr. Webb and his successors thought space photography was great.

[Assistant] What types of resistance did you encounter?

[User] You mean in my directorate?

[Assistant] In trying to incorporate space photography into the missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm glad you have it now. All of us, when we get together for a pizza or something about three or four times a year, always say, "You know, what will the people in the future know about what's going on, what happened and why it happened and how this unique group of people worked together?"

[Assistant] We on this project have had a real privilege of getting to learn about that, and it's definitely been a privilege.

[User] And you look back, like at Apollo 13 where there were battlegrounds and how to safe that spacecraft and wondering if this guy's opinion had prevailed over that guy's, would they have come home and so on. But we had a guy that always made the right decision, or it turned out that way, you know, Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, a natural-born leader. Gilruth, natural-born leader. The top were naturally born leaders. When you get up in the morning, you wanted to work for them. I don't see that today.

[Assistant] I think you had something very special then.

[User] Yes, and it had never been done before, so it was something new. So no one could tell you, "We used to do it this way." [Laughter] I don't know whether that's the problem in building automobile tires today or what, but, you know, it hadn't been done before. So we pretty much set it up what we thought would work best, and the results proved it out.

[Assistant] And we're thankful that you made sure that we have good pictures to remember it by.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember. We had heard a great deal about the NACA. Our aeronautics professor at Stanford at that time, [Elliot G. Reid] had worked at Langley Field [Langley Aeronautical Laboratory, now named Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] and he came to Stanford in 1927 from Langley Field, and was one of their stars. He had talked to us about the NACA. William Durand, who was a retired professor, had been the [second] chairman of the NACA, so we had been exposed at Stanford to the existence of the NACA and it seemed like a very, very natural thing to do. I remember it very well. Once, when we were working in the Stanford wind tunnel, we had a visit from the great Theodore von Kármán, the great man from Caltech, who asked me if I wanted to come to Caltech and study with him for a Ph.D., but I didn’t want to do that, and so I didn’t. I went to work for NACA, and it was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] You were no longer a student and you were newly employed. Where did you live and how did you become more integrated to the NACA? Were there places for new employees to live nearby?

[User] My parents had moved up here from Pasadena when my younger sister, who was the youngest of the five siblings in our family, went to Stanford. I lived at home with my father and mother for the first years that I was at NACA. They lived in Los Altos, which is just a few miles from Moffett Field.

[Assistant] I understand you helped inspect some of the new buildings that were coming up, is that true, as they were being built?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what that entailed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My parents had moved up here from Pasadena when my younger sister, who was the youngest of the five siblings in our family, went to Stanford. I lived at home with my father and mother for the first years that I was at NACA. They lived in Los Altos, which is just a few miles from Moffett Field.

[Assistant] I understand you helped inspect some of the new buildings that were coming up, is that true, as they were being built?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what that entailed?

[User] It entailed work for which Frick and I were not qualified, really. We went out and watched what the people were doing in actually building the buildings. I remember once, I went out and watched the contractors laying the concrete for the parking areas for the aircraft in front of the flight hangar, something I had no experience at, no qualifications at, but I was supposed to okay what the people were doing there, in building those. Especially, the things that were most interesting were the work we were doing on the first two wind tunnels. Frick worked on the 7 x 10 [Foot] Low-Speed [Wind] Tunnel and I worked on the 16-Foot High-Speed [Wind] Tunnel. We worked on the drawings for the construction and all kinds of things involved in the construction of the wind tunnels. We got in on the building of the laboratory, literally.

[Assistant] You really did know the buildings inside and out, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what that entailed?

[User] It entailed work for which Frick and I were not qualified, really. We went out and watched what the people were doing in actually building the buildings. I remember once, I went out and watched the contractors laying the concrete for the parking areas for the aircraft in front of the flight hangar, something I had no experience at, no qualifications at, but I was supposed to okay what the people were doing there, in building those. Especially, the things that were most interesting were the work we were doing on the first two wind tunnels. Frick worked on the 7 x 10 [Foot] Low-Speed [Wind] Tunnel and I worked on the 16-Foot High-Speed [Wind] Tunnel. We worked on the drawings for the construction and all kinds of things involved in the construction of the wind tunnels. We got in on the building of the laboratory, literally.

[Assistant] You really did know the buildings inside and out, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You actually worked on the design of the Supersonic Wind Tunnel, is that correct?