[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing comes to mind right now, but probably when I go home, I’ll say.

[Assistant]
That’s fine, and you can certainly do that. I was going to ask Rebecca if she had any questions, if you don’t mind?

I’ve just got a couple. One is you mentioned so much about the reports—what are your thoughts, or what were you told when you first got here about the importance of documenting your work and doing reports?

[User] I knew that reports were important. They were not the same as they are today, where what’s the word, I guess, that they use about having it written down? People in academia have a—

[Assistant]
Like they publish or die, that sort of thing?

Publish or perish?

[User] Yes, publish or perish. That wasn’t the mantra, then. It was important to document your work, and you wanted to get that accurate. The people who helped you write reports were quite helpful, quite interesting, but when I look back, it’s such an antiquated system as compared to what you can do today with computers.\n\n It was a lot of work to create a report because they had to type it out and you had to look at it, and then you made corrections, and then they had to re-type it. It was a lot of work. You tried to do it right the first time, but you never did. I don’t remember anyone that ever did a write-up that was right the first time. Then, you had to get photographs and try to augment the report with things. It was interesting, but it wasn’t so important. You had to document it, that was important, but it wasn’t the thing that you were working to. You were not working to write a report; you were working to develop something, do something, and that’s what my impression was.

[Assistant] The report was the means to share that knowledge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew that reports were important. They were not the same as they are today, where what’s the word, I guess, that they use about having it written down? People in academia have a—

[Assistant]
Like they publish or die, that sort of thing?

Publish or perish?

[User] Yes, publish or perish. That wasn’t the mantra, then. It was important to document your work, and you wanted to get that accurate. The people who helped you write reports were quite helpful, quite interesting, but when I look back, it’s such an antiquated system as compared to what you can do today with computers.\n\n It was a lot of work to create a report because they had to type it out and you had to look at it, and then you made corrections, and then they had to re-type it. It was a lot of work. You tried to do it right the first time, but you never did. I don’t remember anyone that ever did a write-up that was right the first time. Then, you had to get photographs and try to augment the report with things. It was interesting, but it wasn’t so important. You had to document it, that was important, but it wasn’t the thing that you were working to. You were not working to write a report; you were working to develop something, do something, and that’s what my impression was.

[Assistant] The report was the means to share that knowledge?

[User] That’s right. That’s what the report was. It let everybody else know what you did.

[Assistant] Do you know of other areas in the NACA Centers, or even the NASA Centers, that were working on solar energy when you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, publish or perish. That wasn’t the mantra, then. It was important to document your work, and you wanted to get that accurate. The people who helped you write reports were quite helpful, quite interesting, but when I look back, it’s such an antiquated system as compared to what you can do today with computers.\n\n It was a lot of work to create a report because they had to type it out and you had to look at it, and then you made corrections, and then they had to re-type it. It was a lot of work. You tried to do it right the first time, but you never did. I don’t remember anyone that ever did a write-up that was right the first time. Then, you had to get photographs and try to augment the report with things. It was interesting, but it wasn’t so important. You had to document it, that was important, but it wasn’t the thing that you were working to. You were not working to write a report; you were working to develop something, do something, and that’s what my impression was.

[Assistant] The report was the means to share that knowledge?

[User] That’s right. That’s what the report was. It let everybody else know what you did.

[Assistant] Do you know of other areas in the NACA Centers, or even the NASA Centers, that were working on solar energy when you were?

[User] Yes, there were other Centers working on it. I’ll tell you that in a second. Goddard Space Flight Center [Greenbelt, Maryland] had a solar cell group. Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama] had a group working on solar cells. JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] had a group working on solar cells. I don’t recall anything at Johnson [Space Center, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], anything with the Ames Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. That’s what the report was. It let everybody else know what you did.

[Assistant] Do you know of other areas in the NACA Centers, or even the NASA Centers, that were working on solar energy when you were?

[User] Yes, there were other Centers working on it. I’ll tell you that in a second. Goddard Space Flight Center [Greenbelt, Maryland] had a solar cell group. Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama] had a group working on solar cells. JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] had a group working on solar cells. I don’t recall anything at Johnson [Space Center, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], anything with the Ames Center?

[User] Ames, I don’t recall that they did anything on solar cells.

[Assistant] Did you share information back and forth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was really clicking along, yes, and it was interesting because we’ve never seen that kind of power out of the thing again. It was just that particular day. It was kind of interesting. I did build that system, or I didn’t personally build it; I was in the organization that had it built, so it came out of my organization. I don’t even remember the time period of that. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] The other question I had, because I think I heard you say something when you first came in, something about the glee club. Was there a glee club here?

[User] There was. That was before I came here, actually. One of the women who was in that glee club was a friend of our family, and she’s since passed away, but she went to my wife’s church and I knew her. When she passed away, her children found this information, knew it had come from NACA, knew I’d worked here, and gave it to me, and so I brought it to Bob, yes. That’s how it got here. I figured if it was history, and you’d think that—you guys know this better than I do—“Just because it’s history, it doesn’t make any difference.” You get that attitude, but I saw that it might be important someplace and brought it here.

[Assistant] It says a lot about the community you were talking about, and the atmosphere, and the feeling that people recreated here. They didn’t go off or do other things; they stayed here with their friends, which is a lot different than people do today.

[User] Yes, you had a lot of clubs here at NACA and NASA. Skiing clubs, all kinds of clubs, to get people together. That’s what they did. It was a big family, basically, is what it was.

[Assistant] Do you remember any women engineers working in your area at any time, or were they mostly the women secretaries or mathematicians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was. That was before I came here, actually. One of the women who was in that glee club was a friend of our family, and she’s since passed away, but she went to my wife’s church and I knew her. When she passed away, her children found this information, knew it had come from NACA, knew I’d worked here, and gave it to me, and so I brought it to Bob, yes. That’s how it got here. I figured if it was history, and you’d think that—you guys know this better than I do—“Just because it’s history, it doesn’t make any difference.” You get that attitude, but I saw that it might be important someplace and brought it here.

[Assistant] It says a lot about the community you were talking about, and the atmosphere, and the feeling that people recreated here. They didn’t go off or do other things; they stayed here with their friends, which is a lot different than people do today.

[User] Yes, you had a lot of clubs here at NACA and NASA. Skiing clubs, all kinds of clubs, to get people together. That’s what they did. It was a big family, basically, is what it was.

[Assistant] Do you remember any women engineers working in your area at any time, or were they mostly the women secretaries or mathematicians?

[User] We had women engineers working in our area from day one, when I got here. I always thought the women were excellent. Not that they were anything special, but I thought they had a slightly different attitude toward work than the guys did. I don’t know how to describe that, but they were really interested in doing what they did, and I think they did a darn good job. I had a lot of women working for me in my time period that I was here, and I always thought that 90 percent of them were top-notch, they did an excellent, excellent job. I would never hesitate, hiring a qualified woman to do something—never. They were good. They were talented, they were dedicated, they were good.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to bring up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you had a lot of clubs here at NACA and NASA. Skiing clubs, all kinds of clubs, to get people together. That’s what they did. It was a big family, basically, is what it was.

[Assistant] Do you remember any women engineers working in your area at any time, or were they mostly the women secretaries or mathematicians?

[User] We had women engineers working in our area from day one, when I got here. I always thought the women were excellent. Not that they were anything special, but I thought they had a slightly different attitude toward work than the guys did. I don’t know how to describe that, but they were really interested in doing what they did, and I think they did a darn good job. I had a lot of women working for me in my time period that I was here, and I always thought that 90 percent of them were top-notch, they did an excellent, excellent job. I would never hesitate, hiring a qualified woman to do something—never. They were good. They were talented, they were dedicated, they were good.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to bring up?

[User] Do you want to talk about after NASA?

[Assistant] Sure, tell me what you did after that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Baldwin Wallace, that’s one of the things I did when I first retired. My wife didn’t want me around the house, so she said, “Baldwin Wallace has this new Institute for Learning in Retirement [ILR], made up of retired people who get together and chat, have courses, and do different things.” At that time, though, the group was 25 people. It’s now, I think the last count was 1,400. It’s grown fantastically, but they had one course a year on something or other, and now they have 20 different courses. They’re taught by retirees and some retired professors, and whoever has something to say, they can do that.\n\n It’s very well organized, and so, I went to the first couple of sessions of that. I think I took a course there, the first course, and got interested in it, and joined their organizing committee. Then, they selected me as the finance chair for that committee, and I did that for about 10 years. Then, I stopped doing that but I continued on as their ad-hoc chair for a scholarship committee. What they did with some of the funds that they collected was they gave out scholarships to people in advanced learning or continuing education programs. I did that for about 10 years. I think I just stopped doing that about two years ago. That was interesting and I enjoyed that aspect of life, too, but I think I’m keeping busy.

[Assistant]
Sounds like it.

And having a good time.

[User] Having a good time, absolutely.

[Assistant] It’s like you’re still learning.

[User] I am still learning. I’m enjoying everything I’m doing. My wife and I have had a good life.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful. We thank you for taking time away from her to come see us today and talk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, when it started.

[Assistant] Were you then involved with developing mission rules for the flight center?

[User] No, I was not.

[Assistant] What were you doing at Langley at the time?

[User] There was a building control branch of the research division. That's where I worked. So I was working on—I can't remember specifically what the job was. It generally was in the field of building control of airplanes.

[Assistant] When did you move into working with the space program? Do you remember what the first mission was that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not.

[Assistant] What were you doing at Langley at the time?

[User] There was a building control branch of the research division. That's where I worked. So I was working on—I can't remember specifically what the job was. It generally was in the field of building control of airplanes.

[Assistant] When did you move into working with the space program? Do you remember what the first mission was that you worked with?

[User] Well, I started working there [at Langley with NACA] before any missions. I think it was probably in October of 1942, about then. I thought it was '42, I don't know. I may have told you [in the] earlier [interview]. I don't remember that well…

[Assistant] …Do you remember John Glenn's Mercury flight when—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a building control branch of the research division. That's where I worked. So I was working on—I can't remember specifically what the job was. It generally was in the field of building control of airplanes.

[Assistant] When did you move into working with the space program? Do you remember what the first mission was that you worked with?

[User] Well, I started working there [at Langley with NACA] before any missions. I think it was probably in October of 1942, about then. I thought it was '42, I don't know. I may have told you [in the] earlier [interview]. I don't remember that well…

[Assistant] …Do you remember John Glenn's Mercury flight when—?

[User] Oh, yes, I remember that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with the decision process when he had the problems with his heat shield? Do you remember what some of the discussions were that surrounded that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I started working there [at Langley with NACA] before any missions. I think it was probably in October of 1942, about then. I thought it was '42, I don't know. I may have told you [in the] earlier [interview]. I don't remember that well…

[Assistant] …Do you remember John Glenn's Mercury flight when—?

[User] Oh, yes, I remember that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with the decision process when he had the problems with his heat shield? Do you remember what some of the discussions were that surrounded that?

[User] I wasn't a flight controller. No, all that activity took place in the control center, and I think primarily Chris Kraft [Christopher C. Kraft, Jr.] was, primarily.

[Assistant] Tell us about Chris Kraft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I remember that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with the decision process when he had the problems with his heat shield? Do you remember what some of the discussions were that surrounded that?

[User] I wasn't a flight controller. No, all that activity took place in the control center, and I think primarily Chris Kraft [Christopher C. Kraft, Jr.] was, primarily.

[Assistant] Tell us about Chris Kraft.

[User] What do you want to know about Chris Kraft? I've known him for fifty years.

[Assistant] Tell us a little bit about him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't a flight controller. No, all that activity took place in the control center, and I think primarily Chris Kraft [Christopher C. Kraft, Jr.] was, primarily.

[Assistant] Tell us about Chris Kraft.

[User] What do you want to know about Chris Kraft? I've known him for fifty years.

[Assistant] Tell us a little bit about him.

[User] I think he's an outstanding individual. He's a real good leader, perhaps the best I've ever met in the engineering field. I feel very strongly, highly toward Chris, very confident. He had more to do with developing NASA operations for manned space flight than anybody else. Of course, he was head of the—when the Space Task Group was first formed, I don't remember the exact name, but it had to do with the operations, particularly at the beginning of Project Mercury, and he was really the leader of the whole space flight program of the United States up till now [Kraft retired from NASA in 1982], including the shuttle program now.

[Assistant] Did you work with him directly on anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What do you want to know about Chris Kraft? I've known him for fifty years.

[Assistant] Tell us a little bit about him.

[User] I think he's an outstanding individual. He's a real good leader, perhaps the best I've ever met in the engineering field. I feel very strongly, highly toward Chris, very confident. He had more to do with developing NASA operations for manned space flight than anybody else. Of course, he was head of the—when the Space Task Group was first formed, I don't remember the exact name, but it had to do with the operations, particularly at the beginning of Project Mercury, and he was really the leader of the whole space flight program of the United States up till now [Kraft retired from NASA in 1982], including the shuttle program now.

[Assistant] Did you work with him directly on anything?

[User] Well, for years I was his technical assistant, before I was deputy director of the division. So, yes, I worked almost very directly with anything he had to do.\n\n Well, I think very highly of him. I can't say enough good things about him, I don't think.

[Assistant] Wonderful. Were there other individuals that you worked with at NASA that were of the same caliber, perhaps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he's an outstanding individual. He's a real good leader, perhaps the best I've ever met in the engineering field. I feel very strongly, highly toward Chris, very confident. He had more to do with developing NASA operations for manned space flight than anybody else. Of course, he was head of the—when the Space Task Group was first formed, I don't remember the exact name, but it had to do with the operations, particularly at the beginning of Project Mercury, and he was really the leader of the whole space flight program of the United States up till now [Kraft retired from NASA in 1982], including the shuttle program now.

[Assistant] Did you work with him directly on anything?

[User] Well, for years I was his technical assistant, before I was deputy director of the division. So, yes, I worked almost very directly with anything he had to do.\n\n Well, I think very highly of him. I can't say enough good things about him, I don't think.

[Assistant] Wonderful. Were there other individuals that you worked with at NASA that were of the same caliber, perhaps?

[User] Well, there were a lot of really good people, but I can't rate many people that highly.

[Assistant] Chris Kraft was the tops.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for years I was his technical assistant, before I was deputy director of the division. So, yes, I worked almost very directly with anything he had to do.\n\n Well, I think very highly of him. I can't say enough good things about him, I don't think.

[Assistant] Wonderful. Were there other individuals that you worked with at NASA that were of the same caliber, perhaps?

[User] Well, there were a lot of really good people, but I can't rate many people that highly.

[Assistant] Chris Kraft was the tops.

[User] Yeah…

[Assistant] …What about Mr. [Robert R.] Gilruth…Robert Gilruth, the director of the Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were a lot of really good people, but I can't rate many people that highly.

[Assistant] Chris Kraft was the tops.

[User] Yeah…

[Assistant] …What about Mr. [Robert R.] Gilruth…Robert Gilruth, the director of the Center.

[User] …You say Gilruth, I recognize who said immediately. Not as directly as with Chris, because he was somewhat removed from me in a high position. But I have a lot of respect for him, too. He was the first man I went to work for at NASA when I went to work for NASA.

[Assistant] What were you doing there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah…

[Assistant] …What about Mr. [Robert R.] Gilruth…Robert Gilruth, the director of the Center.

[User] …You say Gilruth, I recognize who said immediately. Not as directly as with Chris, because he was somewhat removed from me in a high position. But I have a lot of respect for him, too. He was the first man I went to work for at NASA when I went to work for NASA.

[Assistant] What were you doing there?

[User] Where?

[Assistant] What were you doing when you worked under Bob Gilruth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] …You say Gilruth, I recognize who said immediately. Not as directly as with Chris, because he was somewhat removed from me in a high position. But I have a lot of respect for him, too. He was the first man I went to work for at NASA when I went to work for NASA.

[Assistant] What were you doing there?

[User] Where?

[Assistant] What were you doing when you worked under Bob Gilruth?

[User] Well, that was my first job after I got out of school. I went to work in the flight research division, [unclear] branch, and I started to learn something about [unclear] airplanes at that time….

[Assistant] …When the decision was made to send Apollo 8 around the moon, that was a pretty challenging decision. Do you remember any of the discussions that surrounded that choice? Was it well accepted at the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where?

[Assistant] What were you doing when you worked under Bob Gilruth?

[User] Well, that was my first job after I got out of school. I went to work in the flight research division, [unclear] branch, and I started to learn something about [unclear] airplanes at that time….

[Assistant] …When the decision was made to send Apollo 8 around the moon, that was a pretty challenging decision. Do you remember any of the discussions that surrounded that choice? Was it well accepted at the Center?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Were there any special changes that had to be made in the Mission Control Center or Flight Center to make that mission possible, that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was my first job after I got out of school. I went to work in the flight research division, [unclear] branch, and I started to learn something about [unclear] airplanes at that time….

[Assistant] …When the decision was made to send Apollo 8 around the moon, that was a pretty challenging decision. Do you remember any of the discussions that surrounded that choice? Was it well accepted at the Center?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Were there any special changes that had to be made in the Mission Control Center or Flight Center to make that mission possible, that you remember?

[User] Well, when we started the lunar flights, of course, the network for Earth orbital flights, relatively near-Earth orbit flights, the network had to change considerably. They had to add stations that were capable of communicating with the spacecraft when it was at the moon. [Unclear] stations were added, I remember, added or complemented, I should say. One at Bermuda, one at Spain, one at Goldstone, California. There was one more. I'm trying to think of it. Australia. So they had to be brought into the network and made sure they're working. It took a lot of checkouts and that kind of thing. That was the main thing that had happened, other than to the spacecraft you had to add those stations and the lunar capability.

[Assistant] That was quite a change, quite a few things to add in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Were there any special changes that had to be made in the Mission Control Center or Flight Center to make that mission possible, that you remember?

[User] Well, when we started the lunar flights, of course, the network for Earth orbital flights, relatively near-Earth orbit flights, the network had to change considerably. They had to add stations that were capable of communicating with the spacecraft when it was at the moon. [Unclear] stations were added, I remember, added or complemented, I should say. One at Bermuda, one at Spain, one at Goldstone, California. There was one more. I'm trying to think of it. Australia. So they had to be brought into the network and made sure they're working. It took a lot of checkouts and that kind of thing. That was the main thing that had happened, other than to the spacecraft you had to add those stations and the lunar capability.

[Assistant] That was quite a change, quite a few things to add in there.

[User] Well, it had all been planned for quite a while, of course, because it took a lot of work to get to that position….

[Assistant] When you were working with Chris Kraft as his deputy directory of the Johnson Space Center, what do you feel was one of your most significant accomplishments in that role?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when we started the lunar flights, of course, the network for Earth orbital flights, relatively near-Earth orbit flights, the network had to change considerably. They had to add stations that were capable of communicating with the spacecraft when it was at the moon. [Unclear] stations were added, I remember, added or complemented, I should say. One at Bermuda, one at Spain, one at Goldstone, California. There was one more. I'm trying to think of it. Australia. So they had to be brought into the network and made sure they're working. It took a lot of checkouts and that kind of thing. That was the main thing that had happened, other than to the spacecraft you had to add those stations and the lunar capability.

[Assistant] That was quite a change, quite a few things to add in there.

[User] Well, it had all been planned for quite a while, of course, because it took a lot of work to get to that position….

[Assistant] When you were working with Chris Kraft as his deputy directory of the Johnson Space Center, what do you feel was one of your most significant accomplishments in that role?

[User] I never asked myself that question.

[Assistant] Or even during your whole involvement with NASA, we could say. Or even, what do you think would be one of your most significant accomplishments during your whole career at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it had all been planned for quite a while, of course, because it took a lot of work to get to that position….

[Assistant] When you were working with Chris Kraft as his deputy directory of the Johnson Space Center, what do you feel was one of your most significant accomplishments in that role?

[User] I never asked myself that question.

[Assistant] Or even during your whole involvement with NASA, we could say. Or even, what do you think would be one of your most significant accomplishments during your whole career at NASA?

[User] I suppose if there was an accomplishment, it was just helping run the flight research division at NASA and being able to participate and plan for all those space missions. I think they were well run. I had something to do with that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with working on the docking module for the Apollo-Soyuz mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never asked myself that question.

[Assistant] Or even during your whole involvement with NASA, we could say. Or even, what do you think would be one of your most significant accomplishments during your whole career at NASA?

[User] I suppose if there was an accomplishment, it was just helping run the flight research division at NASA and being able to participate and plan for all those space missions. I think they were well run. I had something to do with that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with working on the docking module for the Apollo-Soyuz mission?

[User] No, I wasn't.

[Assistant] What did you think about that mission at the time and with working with the Soviet Union, who had been enemies so long? Was it easy to work with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose if there was an accomplishment, it was just helping run the flight research division at NASA and being able to participate and plan for all those space missions. I think they were well run. I had something to do with that.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with working on the docking module for the Apollo-Soyuz mission?

[User] No, I wasn't.

[Assistant] What did you think about that mission at the time and with working with the Soviet Union, who had been enemies so long? Was it easy to work with them?

[User] Yeah, relatively easy, although I didn't work directly with them. I mean, I didn't have a lot of day-to-day kind of contact working those people. But basically, things seemed to get along okay with them.

[Assistant] Would you ever have imagined that we'd been working with them again on a space station project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn't.

[Assistant] What did you think about that mission at the time and with working with the Soviet Union, who had been enemies so long? Was it easy to work with them?

[User] Yeah, relatively easy, although I didn't work directly with them. I mean, I didn't have a lot of day-to-day kind of contact working those people. But basically, things seemed to get along okay with them.

[Assistant] Would you ever have imagined that we'd been working with them again on a space station project?

[User] Sure, I did.

[Assistant] Yeah? Do you think that international cooperation in space is a good idea, then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, relatively easy, although I didn't work directly with them. I mean, I didn't have a lot of day-to-day kind of contact working those people. But basically, things seemed to get along okay with them.

[Assistant] Would you ever have imagined that we'd been working with them again on a space station project?

[User] Sure, I did.

[Assistant] Yeah? Do you think that international cooperation in space is a good idea, then?

[User] Well, I don't have any special knowledge what's going on, but if they can meet their commitments, fine. But as you know, once in a while they seem to be short of money and unable to get some things done, so that makes one question that. I think the man who caused it to happen, who was [Daniel] Goldin, probably didn't have much choice. He was having trouble making the U.S. spend money, too.

[Assistant] Space flight is certainly an expensive thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, I did.

[Assistant] Yeah? Do you think that international cooperation in space is a good idea, then?

[User] Well, I don't have any special knowledge what's going on, but if they can meet their commitments, fine. But as you know, once in a while they seem to be short of money and unable to get some things done, so that makes one question that. I think the man who caused it to happen, who was [Daniel] Goldin, probably didn't have much choice. He was having trouble making the U.S. spend money, too.

[Assistant] Space flight is certainly an expensive thing to do.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant]
Do you have any special memories from your career working in the space program?

Any favorite stories?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't have any special knowledge what's going on, but if they can meet their commitments, fine. But as you know, once in a while they seem to be short of money and unable to get some things done, so that makes one question that. I think the man who caused it to happen, who was [Daniel] Goldin, probably didn't have much choice. He was having trouble making the U.S. spend money, too.

[Assistant] Space flight is certainly an expensive thing to do.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant]
Do you have any special memories from your career working in the space program?

Any favorite stories?

[User] None that I can tell. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever imagine that when you first started working with NASA that you would see people walking on the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant]
Do you have any special memories from your career working in the space program?

Any favorite stories?

[User] None that I can tell. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever imagine that when you first started working with NASA that you would see people walking on the moon?

[User] No, ma'am. It didn't occur to me we'd be doing that. When I started with NASA in 1942, that wasn't even talked about. That happened later.

[Assistant] Were you in the control room when Apollo 11 landed on the moon and they walked on the moon the first time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None that I can tell. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever imagine that when you first started working with NASA that you would see people walking on the moon?

[User] No, ma'am. It didn't occur to me we'd be doing that. When I started with NASA in 1942, that wasn't even talked about. That happened later.

[Assistant] Were you in the control room when Apollo 11 landed on the moon and they walked on the moon the first time?

[User] Yes, I was, right down the street here.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like for everyone at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, ma'am. It didn't occur to me we'd be doing that. When I started with NASA in 1942, that wasn't even talked about. That happened later.

[Assistant] Were you in the control room when Apollo 11 landed on the moon and they walked on the moon the first time?

[User] Yes, I was, right down the street here.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like for everyone at the time?

[User] Great exuberance and feeling good, personally feeling good, too, because they had all had a part in making that happen, and it was quite an accomplishment.

[Assistant] Was there ever any question that maybe the Russians would beat us to the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was, right down the street here.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like for everyone at the time?

[User] Great exuberance and feeling good, personally feeling good, too, because they had all had a part in making that happen, and it was quite an accomplishment.

[Assistant] Was there ever any question that maybe the Russians would beat us to the moon?

[User] Yes, there was at one time, and then they seemed to be having a lot of trouble with the launch vehicles blowing up and so on that kind of solved that problem.

[Assistant] Were you watching in the control room when the last Apollo mission landed on the moon for the last time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great exuberance and feeling good, personally feeling good, too, because they had all had a part in making that happen, and it was quite an accomplishment.

[Assistant] Was there ever any question that maybe the Russians would beat us to the moon?

[User] Yes, there was at one time, and then they seemed to be having a lot of trouble with the launch vehicles blowing up and so on that kind of solved that problem.

[Assistant] Were you watching in the control room when the last Apollo mission landed on the moon for the last time?

[User] Yes, I was in there.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like at that time as compared to with Apollo 11?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was at one time, and then they seemed to be having a lot of trouble with the launch vehicles blowing up and so on that kind of solved that problem.

[Assistant] Were you watching in the control room when the last Apollo mission landed on the moon for the last time?

[User] Yes, I was in there.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like at that time as compared to with Apollo 11?

[User] Well, we hadn't done it so often that it was routine or anything like that. It was still this relief all had gone well and so on.

[Assistant] Did you think we would reach the end of this century and not have gone back yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was in there.

[Assistant] What was the feeling like at that time as compared to with Apollo 11?

[User] Well, we hadn't done it so often that it was routine or anything like that. It was still this relief all had gone well and so on.

[Assistant] Did you think we would reach the end of this century and not have gone back yet?

[User] I didn't think it would be necessarily to the moon, but I thought we probably would go somewhere else, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Assistant] Somewhere else such as on to Mars?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we hadn't done it so often that it was routine or anything like that. It was still this relief all had gone well and so on.

[Assistant] Did you think we would reach the end of this century and not have gone back yet?

[User] I didn't think it would be necessarily to the moon, but I thought we probably would go somewhere else, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Assistant] Somewhere else such as on to Mars?

[User] Possibly that or some other likely place like that.

[Assistant] Do you think that will be a big part of the future of the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't think it would be necessarily to the moon, but I thought we probably would go somewhere else, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Assistant] Somewhere else such as on to Mars?

[User] Possibly that or some other likely place like that.

[Assistant] Do you think that will be a big part of the future of the space program?

[User] Yes, I think it will. I can't estimate when, but it will happen.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1979, shortly before the space shuttle launched, and then you went to work for OAO Corporation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Possibly that or some other likely place like that.

[Assistant] Do you think that will be a big part of the future of the space program?

[User] Yes, I think it will. I can't estimate when, but it will happen.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1979, shortly before the space shuttle launched, and then you went to work for OAO Corporation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What were your primary job responsibilities with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it will. I can't estimate when, but it will happen.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1979, shortly before the space shuttle launched, and then you went to work for OAO Corporation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What were your primary job responsibilities with them?

[User] My primary job responsibility was to try to get them some work with Johnson Space Center, which didn't happen.

[Assistant] They worked with telescopes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What were your primary job responsibilities with them?

[User] My primary job responsibility was to try to get them some work with Johnson Space Center, which didn't happen.

[Assistant] They worked with telescopes?

[User] What did OAO do?

[Assistant] Did they work with telescopes that were like the precursor to the Hubble Space Telescope?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My primary job responsibility was to try to get them some work with Johnson Space Center, which didn't happen.

[Assistant] They worked with telescopes?

[User] What did OAO do?

[Assistant] Did they work with telescopes that were like the precursor to the Hubble Space Telescope?

[User] Not to my knowledge. They were doing everything. It was a very small company, but they had some NASA contracts. For one thing, they worked on the Orbiting Astronomical Observatory—you've probably heard of that—which was the spacecraft which was developed for astronomical—it was a telescope. It was a general contract for operations of that. And some other things they were working on. They [unclear]. As far as I know, they're still in business.

[Assistant] I think so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What did OAO do?

[Assistant] Did they work with telescopes that were like the precursor to the Hubble Space Telescope?

[User] Not to my knowledge. They were doing everything. It was a very small company, but they had some NASA contracts. For one thing, they worked on the Orbiting Astronomical Observatory—you've probably heard of that—which was the spacecraft which was developed for astronomical—it was a telescope. It was a general contract for operations of that. And some other things they were working on. They [unclear]. As far as I know, they're still in business.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] Up at Goddard Space Flight Center.

[Assistant] Since you left NASA, some things have changed. For example, the space shuttle is now being run under contract with United Space Alliance, or USA. Do you think that's a good move? Do you think other things are going to be contracted out like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not to my knowledge. They were doing everything. It was a very small company, but they had some NASA contracts. For one thing, they worked on the Orbiting Astronomical Observatory—you've probably heard of that—which was the spacecraft which was developed for astronomical—it was a telescope. It was a general contract for operations of that. And some other things they were working on. They [unclear]. As far as I know, they're still in business.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] Up at Goddard Space Flight Center.

[Assistant] Since you left NASA, some things have changed. For example, the space shuttle is now being run under contract with United Space Alliance, or USA. Do you think that's a good move? Do you think other things are going to be contracted out like that?

[User] I don't know if it's a good move or not, but it was a necessary move in terms of getting more done for the buck. That was the hope, anyway. That was the only reason for doing that in the first place. I don't know if that's working out or not.

[Assistant] So far it seems to be okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Up at Goddard Space Flight Center.

[Assistant] Since you left NASA, some things have changed. For example, the space shuttle is now being run under contract with United Space Alliance, or USA. Do you think that's a good move? Do you think other things are going to be contracted out like that?

[User] I don't know if it's a good move or not, but it was a necessary move in terms of getting more done for the buck. That was the hope, anyway. That was the only reason for doing that in the first place. I don't know if that's working out or not.

[Assistant] So far it seems to be okay.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] So far they haven't had any accidents.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if it's a good move or not, but it was a necessary move in terms of getting more done for the buck. That was the hope, anyway. That was the only reason for doing that in the first place. I don't know if that's working out or not.

[Assistant] So far it seems to be okay.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] So far they haven't had any accidents.

[User] No, no, they're a good company. Boeing's a very capable company, and I expect a lot of people who worked for North American, for example, are now working for Boeing, etc., so I'm not sure it's changed that much.

[Assistant] What do you think in the future NASA should probably focus most on? Should it be the space station or a flight to Mars or back to the moon, or something else altogether?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] So far they haven't had any accidents.

[User] No, no, they're a good company. Boeing's a very capable company, and I expect a lot of people who worked for North American, for example, are now working for Boeing, etc., so I'm not sure it's changed that much.

[Assistant] What do you think in the future NASA should probably focus most on? Should it be the space station or a flight to Mars or back to the moon, or something else altogether?

[User] Well, I think that in the near future they're going to have to spend their money on the space station, so much they've got into it already. Some further exploration to planets and so on will have to come later. I don't know when. They obviously have to work on the space station first, get something out of that.

[Assistant] The space station's been planned for a long time, and we had our first space station with Skylab back in the seventies. Did you work with that particular program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, they're a good company. Boeing's a very capable company, and I expect a lot of people who worked for North American, for example, are now working for Boeing, etc., so I'm not sure it's changed that much.

[Assistant] What do you think in the future NASA should probably focus most on? Should it be the space station or a flight to Mars or back to the moon, or something else altogether?

[User] Well, I think that in the near future they're going to have to spend their money on the space station, so much they've got into it already. Some further exploration to planets and so on will have to come later. I don't know when. They obviously have to work on the space station first, get something out of that.

[Assistant] The space station's been planned for a long time, and we had our first space station with Skylab back in the seventies. Did you work with that particular program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what your involvement was with the Skylab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think that in the near future they're going to have to spend their money on the space station, so much they've got into it already. Some further exploration to planets and so on will have to come later. I don't know when. They obviously have to work on the space station first, get something out of that.

[Assistant] The space station's been planned for a long time, and we had our first space station with Skylab back in the seventies. Did you work with that particular program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what your involvement was with the Skylab?

[User] Flight operations. It was the same with all of them—Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab.

[Assistant] When you worked in flight operations, were you responsible then for hiring the flight controllers and training them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what your involvement was with the Skylab?

[User] Flight operations. It was the same with all of them—Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab.

[Assistant] When you worked in flight operations, were you responsible then for hiring the flight controllers and training them?

[User] I was not responsible for hiring them. I think individual responsibility was, of course, the personnel office. No, I was not directly responsible for that. What was the second part of your question?

[Assistant] Were you involved with training the flight controllers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Flight operations. It was the same with all of them—Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab.

[Assistant] When you worked in flight operations, were you responsible then for hiring the flight controllers and training them?

[User] I was not responsible for hiring them. I think individual responsibility was, of course, the personnel office. No, I was not directly responsible for that. What was the second part of your question?

[Assistant] Were you involved with training the flight controllers?

[User] Not directly, again. I'm sure indirectly….

[Assistant] …Summer, do you have any other questions?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Sjoberg] Is there anything in particular that you can think of that you'd like to share with us, a story or just a general thought on the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not responsible for hiring them. I think individual responsibility was, of course, the personnel office. No, I was not directly responsible for that. What was the second part of your question?

[Assistant] Were you involved with training the flight controllers?

[User] Not directly, again. I'm sure indirectly….

[Assistant] …Summer, do you have any other questions?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Sjoberg] Is there anything in particular that you can think of that you'd like to share with us, a story or just a general thought on the space program?

[User] I don't think there's anything else I want to say.

[Assistant] No? Okay. Well, we appreciate this very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not directly, again. I'm sure indirectly….

[Assistant] …Summer, do you have any other questions?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Sjoberg] Is there anything in particular that you can think of that you'd like to share with us, a story or just a general thought on the space program?

[User] I don't think there's anything else I want to say.

[Assistant] No? Okay. Well, we appreciate this very much.

[User] I'm afraid I didn't tell you very much.

[Assistant] Oh, you gave us a little overview of some of your thoughts on the program, so we appreciate that. It's been very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to college in Galesburg, Illinois, at Knox College, a small liberal arts college, about a couple hundred miles from Chicago.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I was a political science major, but I had had a long-held interest in Africa and in fact, in a way, pulled together a kind of minor in African studies during college.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a political science major, but I had had a long-held interest in Africa and in fact, in a way, pulled together a kind of minor in African studies during college.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back a little bit.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in the South Side of Chicago.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] In the sort of heart of the Black neighborhood often called Bronzeville.

[Assistant] Yeah. Siblings?

[User] I had three sisters and one brother.

[Assistant] Were you the youngest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the sort of heart of the Black neighborhood often called Bronzeville.

[Assistant] Yeah. Siblings?

[User] I had three sisters and one brother.

[Assistant] Were you the youngest?

[User] I was the second. I have an older sister and I was second in birth order.

[Assistant] And let's jump ahead to. And growing up, high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had three sisters and one brother.

[Assistant] Were you the youngest?

[User] I was the second. I have an older sister and I was second in birth order.

[Assistant] And let's jump ahead to. And growing up, high school?

[User] I went to high school on the South Side. It was one of the best known of the high schools, DuSable High School, traditional Black high school. I think maybe the second or third Black high school built in Chicago.

[Assistant] Was it by law or by tradition that it was a Black high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the second. I have an older sister and I was second in birth order.

[Assistant] And let's jump ahead to. And growing up, high school?

[User] I went to high school on the South Side. It was one of the best known of the high schools, DuSable High School, traditional Black high school. I think maybe the second or third Black high school built in Chicago.

[Assistant] Was it by law or by tradition that it was a Black high school?

[User] By tradition and geography.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And high school, during your four years in high school, did you get to do any volunteer work? What did you do during the summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually I had to work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn't do volunteer work, although there were times when there were high school projects that I was involved in or other kinds of things.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You'd be involved with meeting other people. The only other sort of projects were choral concerts we often did during the summer too, the high school choir.

[Assistant] And you were in the choir?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't do volunteer work, although there were times when there were high school projects that I was involved in or other kinds of things.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You'd be involved with meeting other people. The only other sort of projects were choral concerts we often did during the summer too, the high school choir.

[Assistant] And you were in the choir?

[User] I was in the choir.

[Assistant] So you got to do some travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd be involved with meeting other people. The only other sort of projects were choral concerts we often did during the summer too, the high school choir.

[Assistant] And you were in the choir?

[User] I was in the choir.

[Assistant] So you got to do some travel?

[User] Around Chicago, yes.

[Assistant] And did the family ever travel anywhere? Did you ever go on vacations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. Once or twice there were treks to Mississippi, which was sort of the homeland.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] But not the kind of travel that other families did, you know, vacations.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] We didn't do that.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. Any other extracurricular activities at high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't do that.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. Any other extracurricular activities at high school?

[User] Um. Mostly it was choir or some of the, often I was doing summer courses, accelerated courses, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That wasn't extracurricular though.

[Assistant] But in going through high school, your expectation was that you were going to go on to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Mostly it was choir or some of the, often I was doing summer courses, accelerated courses, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That wasn't extracurricular though.

[Assistant] But in going through high school, your expectation was that you were going to go on to college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And your family's expectation also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And your family's expectation also?

[User] Yeah. They were pleased to think that. I mean, I was going to be to the first or second to do so.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] But they certainly had those aspirations.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So you graduated high school and had applied to several schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they certainly had those aspirations.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So you graduated high school and had applied to several schools?

[User] Mm hmm. I went to Knox essentially because it became the most affordable. I got into the University of Chicago, but since I lived in the neighborhood, I really wanted to get out of town. I applied to a couple of other places outside of Illinois, but I had two fellowships. One was a Pullman Fellowship, which I'll tell you about in a minute.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The other was an Illinois state one, which gave you money if you went to an institution within the state.

[Assistant] Where is Knox College?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. I went to Knox essentially because it became the most affordable. I got into the University of Chicago, but since I lived in the neighborhood, I really wanted to get out of town. I applied to a couple of other places outside of Illinois, but I had two fellowships. One was a Pullman Fellowship, which I'll tell you about in a minute.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The other was an Illinois state one, which gave you money if you went to an institution within the state.

[Assistant] Where is Knox College?

[User] Knox is in Galesburg, which is southwest of Chicago.

[Assistant] Okay. But it's a private.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other was an Illinois state one, which gave you money if you went to an institution within the state.

[Assistant] Where is Knox College?

[User] Knox is in Galesburg, which is southwest of Chicago.

[Assistant] Okay. But it's a private.

[User] It's a private school.

[Assistant] And it's a four year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Knox is in Galesburg, which is southwest of Chicago.

[Assistant] Okay. But it's a private.

[User] It's a private school.

[Assistant] And it's a four year?

[User] Four year liberal arts school, about 1,600 students or so.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so you had the state money and Pullman money.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pullman had a company town way south in Chicago, and it was essentially all white, and Pullman was pretty much a segregationist. You could be a porter in his company, but nothing else.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So in his desire to sort of organize social services and supports for the people who worked for him and lived in the company town, he created this foundation.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the stipulation was that the money went first to the children of Pullman employees, people who lived in Pullman, and then people on the South Side.

[Assistant] As long as you were poor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As long as you were poor. Little did he know that the South Side would become just about totally black.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So a lot of the Pullman money was available for potential Black college students.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So using the Pullman money and the state money, Knox was virtually cost free.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So a lot of the Pullman money was available for potential Black college students.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So using the Pullman money and the state money, Knox was virtually cost free.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.

[User] $1,002, I think. And I earned that working during the school year.

[Assistant] So. Okay. So you got into Knox?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So using the Pullman money and the state money, Knox was virtually cost free.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.

[User] $1,002, I think. And I earned that working during the school year.

[Assistant] So. Okay. So you got into Knox?

[User] Mm hmm. [to other person] Mary.

[Assistant] How early did you choose a major? Was it by your second or third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] $1,002, I think. And I earned that working during the school year.

[Assistant] So. Okay. So you got into Knox?

[User] Mm hmm. [to other person] Mary.

[Assistant] How early did you choose a major? Was it by your second or third year?

[User] I pretty much was interested in politics from the beginning, politics or history.

[Assistant] And the African interest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm not exactly sure where it came from. There were a variety of sort of local institutions in and around the South Side.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] People interested in Africa. There was also an enormous Liberian population, and we knew some of them.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But even in high school, as I said, I began to develop this interest, reading.

[Assistant] Marcus Garvey was long gone by then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People interested in Africa. There was also an enormous Liberian population, and we knew some of them.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But even in high school, as I said, I began to develop this interest, reading.

[Assistant] Marcus Garvey was long gone by then?

[User] Garvey was long gone, but there were still remnants. And I did have teachers who focused on Africa, for whom it was a serious interest. So by the time I got to college, the interest was embedded.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And you said during, while you were in college, you worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But even in high school, as I said, I began to develop this interest, reading.

[Assistant] Marcus Garvey was long gone by then?

[User] Garvey was long gone, but there were still remnants. And I did have teachers who focused on Africa, for whom it was a serious interest. So by the time I got to college, the interest was embedded.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And you said during, while you were in college, you worked.

[User] Mm hmm. I did mail delivery for the school. I was a mailman.

[Assistant] Yeah. All right. And what about your summers then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Garvey was long gone, but there were still remnants. And I did have teachers who focused on Africa, for whom it was a serious interest. So by the time I got to college, the interest was embedded.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And you said during, while you were in college, you worked.

[User] Mm hmm. I did mail delivery for the school. I was a mailman.

[Assistant] Yeah. All right. And what about your summers then?

[User] Summers I found whatever jobs I could.

[Assistant] Come back up to Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. I did mail delivery for the school. I was a mailman.

[Assistant] Yeah. All right. And what about your summers then?

[User] Summers I found whatever jobs I could.

[Assistant] Come back up to Chicago?

[User] I'd come back to Chicago. And once I worked for a design company which did offset printing, and I was the packer and loader of their products. And so I had a variety of jobs of that kind. You know, anything you could get during the summer.

[Assistant] And during the four years, any opportunities for travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Summers I found whatever jobs I could.

[Assistant] Come back up to Chicago?

[User] I'd come back to Chicago. And once I worked for a design company which did offset printing, and I was the packer and loader of their products. And so I had a variety of jobs of that kind. You know, anything you could get during the summer.

[Assistant] And during the four years, any opportunities for travel?

[User] Not really, I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] So now your whole life up to the end of college is pretty much in Chicago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd come back to Chicago. And once I worked for a design company which did offset printing, and I was the packer and loader of their products. And so I had a variety of jobs of that kind. You know, anything you could get during the summer.

[Assistant] And during the four years, any opportunities for travel?

[User] Not really, I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] So now your whole life up to the end of college is pretty much in Chicago.

[User] Pretty much in Illinois. Yeah.

[Assistant]
Okay.

So, okay, we're talking about travel during your four years. What was your involvement in school life at Knox?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] So now your whole life up to the end of college is pretty much in Chicago.

[User] Pretty much in Illinois. Yeah.

[Assistant]
Okay.

So, okay, we're talking about travel during your four years. What was your involvement in school life at Knox?

[User] Um, let's see. I was in a fraternity, which was interesting. It sort of organized your social life on campus. It was a local fraternity because in those days, almost all the national fraternities had discriminatory clauses. Hardly any of them would allow Blacks in, and a great many had anti- Jewish clauses.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So the fraternity you were involved with, it was integrated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And by local, I mean it had no national, it existed only on this campus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was involved in things political on campus, you know, student peace union and those kinds of activities.

[Assistant] Yeah. It was during those years, of course, the Peace Corps first began, just about the time you started college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And by local, I mean it had no national, it existed only on this campus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was involved in things political on campus, you know, student peace union and those kinds of activities.

[Assistant] Yeah. It was during those years, of course, the Peace Corps first began, just about the time you started college.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall when you first heard of Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved in things political on campus, you know, student peace union and those kinds of activities.

[Assistant] Yeah. It was during those years, of course, the Peace Corps first began, just about the time you started college.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall when you first heard of Peace Corps?

[User] At the very beginning.

[Assistant] Okay. And how you heard about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure exactly how, probably media, but clearly my abiding interest in Africa was key because of Ghana I, you know. I'd had an interest in West Africa, Liberia, Ghana.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And actually knew one or two Ghanaians sort of from Chicago, the University of Chicago area.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So the announcement of the formation of Peace Corps and then the formation of Ghana I was something I, this was very much a.

[Assistant] So you were aware of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And actually knew one or two Ghanaians sort of from Chicago, the University of Chicago area.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So the announcement of the formation of Peace Corps and then the formation of Ghana I was something I, this was very much a.

[Assistant] So you were aware of it?

[User] Yeah, very much.

[Assistant] But setting Peace Corps aside, what was, what was your intended goal once you finished Knox?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the announcement of the formation of Peace Corps and then the formation of Ghana I was something I, this was very much a.

[Assistant] So you were aware of it?

[User] Yeah, very much.

[Assistant] But setting Peace Corps aside, what was, what was your intended goal once you finished Knox?

[User] I assumed I'd go on to graduate school. I also thought fairly seriously about doing African studies at the graduate level. And one of the things I came to be aware of was those handful really of very good African studies programs that existed at the graduate level.

[Assistant] That was, yeah, early on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. One of which was Northwestern.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And because I lived in Chicago and it was sort of close at hand, I actually made a trek or two up to their library while I was an undergraduate.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I remember, I think my senior paper was on African liberation struggles.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And were there any, were there any African study courses at Knox or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And because I lived in Chicago and it was sort of close at hand, I actually made a trek or two up to their library while I was an undergraduate.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I remember, I think my senior paper was on African liberation struggles.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And were there any, were there any African study courses at Knox or?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And were there any Africans at Knox?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's a good distance outside of Nairobi. And although there had been a colonial presence there, it wasn't a place that attracted lots of tourists.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I was there maybe a week or two and went into the town to do shopping. And all of the shops were owned by Asians.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And this one man behind the counter who was one of the owners of the store in T Falls, really intrigued by this strange person coming, and he told me that he had a relative who'd gone on to the States and he said, do you know Sukhdev? That's an absolutely true story. This was Sukhdev's uncle.

[Assistant] Well, it's not that coincidental, he had come from Kenya. But that's like, are you from New York City? Do you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. That's right. So we became fast friends. G. K. Unia was the guy's name.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I got all kinds of special treatment because I knew Sukhdev.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But there weren't any Black Africans at Knox.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. Let's jump back now. You're approaching graduation. Had you applied to graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I got all kinds of special treatment because I knew Sukhdev.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But there weren't any Black Africans at Knox.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. Let's jump back now. You're approaching graduation. Had you applied to graduate school?

[User] No, I had decided I really wanted to do Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you recall applying, the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there weren't any Black Africans at Knox.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. Let's jump back now. You're approaching graduation. Had you applied to graduate school?

[User] No, I had decided I really wanted to do Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you recall applying, the application process?

[User] Vaguely.

[Assistant] Okay. One of the things in the application usually is you give an indication of your preference for assignment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had decided I really wanted to do Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you recall applying, the application process?

[User] Vaguely.

[Assistant] Okay. One of the things in the application usually is you give an indication of your preference for assignment.

[User] Right. I do recall that.

[Assistant] And what was your preference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Vaguely.

[Assistant] Okay. One of the things in the application usually is you give an indication of your preference for assignment.

[User] Right. I do recall that.

[Assistant] And what was your preference?

[User] West Africa.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And also they may ask if you had a language preference, if you had a second language that you felt comfortable in. Had you studied any foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I do recall that.

[Assistant] And what was your preference?

[User] West Africa.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And also they may ask if you had a language preference, if you had a second language that you felt comfortable in. Had you studied any foreign language?

[User] German. So none of the ones, none of the places I'm interested in.

[Assistant] Okay. So you applied. I don't know if they were still giving the entrance exam then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] West Africa.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And also they may ask if you had a language preference, if you had a second language that you felt comfortable in. Had you studied any foreign language?

[User] German. So none of the ones, none of the places I'm interested in.

[Assistant] Okay. So you applied. I don't know if they were still giving the entrance exam then.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Did you apply before you graduated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] German. So none of the ones, none of the places I'm interested in.

[Assistant] Okay. So you applied. I don't know if they were still giving the entrance exam then.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Did you apply before you graduated?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Okay, so then let's take the story from there. You sent the application in, but it wasn't a done deal. So you must have been exploring other options.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really diversity effort.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] So during the summer, I worked for Illinois Bell and waited to hear. And I guess I heard from Peace Corps probably July of '64, telling me that there was a Kenya program, the first one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That training would begin in September and I had to let them know I was interested.

[Assistant] Did it indicate that it was going to be rural community action?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So during the summer, I worked for Illinois Bell and waited to hear. And I guess I heard from Peace Corps probably July of '64, telling me that there was a Kenya program, the first one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That training would begin in September and I had to let them know I was interested.

[Assistant] Did it indicate that it was going to be rural community action?

[User] Yeah. I'm pretty sure it did.

[Assistant] And did you think, what in the world is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That training would begin in September and I had to let them know I was interested.

[Assistant] Did it indicate that it was going to be rural community action?

[User] Yeah. I'm pretty sure it did.

[Assistant] And did you think, what in the world is that?

[User] I did. And I, you know, I had second and third thoughts, but since I wasn't sure how or when the ideal operation would come up, I decided that this one is there now. And I was also intrigued, I remember, that it was Kenya I. It was early on, '64, so I thought it would be fun to be in, you know, the first group.

[Assistant] Up to that point, had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. And I, you know, I had second and third thoughts, but since I wasn't sure how or when the ideal operation would come up, I decided that this one is there now. And I was also intrigued, I remember, that it was Kenya I. It was early on, '64, so I thought it would be fun to be in, you know, the first group.

[Assistant] Up to that point, had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?

[User] No. I think I'd met a Peace Corps recruiter.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But no.

[Assistant] So it was kind of a leap of faith.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think I'd met a Peace Corps recruiter.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But no.

[Assistant] So it was kind of a leap of faith.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] And when you got the invitation to training, the reaction of your friends, your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like the dark side of the moon.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They know nothing about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So their trepidation was about the distance and the disconnection.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you, you had no hesitation when the invitation came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They know nothing about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So their trepidation was about the distance and the disconnection.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you, you had no hesitation when the invitation came?

[User] No, I had no hesitation.

[Assistant] That was it. And Illinois Bell would have to make it without you. They were supportive too I assume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So their trepidation was about the distance and the disconnection.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you, you had no hesitation when the invitation came?

[User] No, I had no hesitation.

[Assistant] That was it. And Illinois Bell would have to make it without you. They were supportive too I assume?

[User] They were. They were.

[Assistant] Because it was the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had no hesitation.

[Assistant] That was it. And Illinois Bell would have to make it without you. They were supportive too I assume?

[User] They were. They were.

[Assistant] Because it was the Peace Corps.

[User] Right. And they made clear that, you know, look, when you're done, you can come on back.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay, good. Uh. So now you finally get to travel outside of Illinois.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were. They were.

[Assistant] Because it was the Peace Corps.

[User] Right. And they made clear that, you know, look, when you're done, you can come on back.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay, good. Uh. So now you finally get to travel outside of Illinois.

[User] I'm in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] Are you reported directly to Milwaukee?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] Are you reported directly to Milwaukee?

[User] Report directly to Milwaukee. I'm 90 miles away.

[Assistant] Very exciting.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] So you didn't fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] So you didn't fly?

[User] No, actually, I took the train.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Took the train from Chicago to Milwaukee.

[Assistant] What a disappointment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Took the train from Chicago to Milwaukee.

[Assistant] What a disappointment.

[User] And made my way to the YMCA where we were housed.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Downtown Milwaukee.

[Assistant] Now, it's kind of an interesting moment for a lot of people. You're suddenly in a room with 30 or 40 other people, all of whom have joined the Peace Corps. And I think inevitably you say, well, how do I match up to this crowd and why are they all looking at me or whatever? Do you remember your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could go weeks without seeing a white face unless you went to the A&P or something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was a strange kind of juxtaposition coming from college back home and then from home, say, to the Peace Corps group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was kind of like being back at Knox because they all seemed like the kind of people I'd gone to college with, you know, all the roughly the same age.

[Assistant] About how many in the group, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was kind of like being back at Knox because they all seemed like the kind of people I'd gone to college with, you know, all the roughly the same age.

[Assistant] About how many in the group, do you recall?

[User] 36. And three of you were African American.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] There was me, there was Rowan. Nettie Kane. I think I'm leaving out somebody, but if not there, there were at least the three of us I can think of.

[Assistant] Had it been made clear that it was, it was training and selection that you were going into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 36. And three of you were African American.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] There was me, there was Rowan. Nettie Kane. I think I'm leaving out somebody, but if not there, there were at least the three of us I can think of.

[Assistant] Had it been made clear that it was, it was training and selection that you were going into?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. So now you meet, you see the group and you settle into the why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was me, there was Rowan. Nettie Kane. I think I'm leaving out somebody, but if not there, there were at least the three of us I can think of.

[Assistant] Had it been made clear that it was, it was training and selection that you were going into?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. So now you meet, you see the group and you settle into the why.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] There are several married couples among?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. So now you meet, you see the group and you settle into the why.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] There are several married couples among?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. And let's talk about how training began. We'll go through its components in a minute. So what happened after you reported to the Y?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My memory is that there was a quick initial meeting, and several people sort of addressed us and welcomed us and began to pass out reams of instructions and paper telling us what was going to happen over the next several weeks.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We got to meet the staff. Most, actually it was two staffs, the training staff and some Peace Corps staffers were out as well.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The people we actually got to know best at that stage where the training staff, many of whom had connections to the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was head of the program, do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got to meet the staff. Most, actually it was two staffs, the training staff and some Peace Corps staffers were out as well.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The people we actually got to know best at that stage where the training staff, many of whom had connections to the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was head of the program, do you remember?

[User] I can remember his face. And if I worked hard at it, his name would come. Joe.

[Assistant] Okay, that's alright. But at the same time, there was a Peace Corps staff. They were there for the whole training, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people we actually got to know best at that stage where the training staff, many of whom had connections to the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was head of the program, do you remember?

[User] I can remember his face. And if I worked hard at it, his name would come. Joe.

[Assistant] Okay, that's alright. But at the same time, there was a Peace Corps staff. They were there for the whole training, too?

[User] No. They were not. They were there to greet us. They stayed only a couple, three days.

[Assistant] Okay. And during that time, when you made aware that you were a pioneering group, that you would be the first into Kenya? That kind of thing was being talked about by.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can remember his face. And if I worked hard at it, his name would come. Joe.

[Assistant] Okay, that's alright. But at the same time, there was a Peace Corps staff. They were there for the whole training, too?

[User] No. They were not. They were there to greet us. They stayed only a couple, three days.

[Assistant] Okay. And during that time, when you made aware that you were a pioneering group, that you would be the first into Kenya? That kind of thing was being talked about by.

[User] That was.

[Assistant] I assume more by the Peace Corps staff than by.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was.

[Assistant] I assume more by the Peace Corps staff than by.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they talked a lot about that, about the Peace Corps mission. My memory is they also talked a bit about selection so that we were made aware that there would be a couple of periods where the staff would come in and there'd be this process and selection would occur and not everybody would make it.

[Assistant] Okay, let's, let's leave that for a moment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they talked a lot about that, about the Peace Corps mission. My memory is they also talked a bit about selection so that we were made aware that there would be a couple of periods where the staff would come in and there'd be this process and selection would occur and not everybody would make it.

[Assistant] Okay, let's, let's leave that for a moment.

[User] So that was sort of the orientation.

[Assistant] So initial training took place at, in Milwaukee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they talked a lot about that, about the Peace Corps mission. My memory is they also talked a bit about selection so that we were made aware that there would be a couple of periods where the staff would come in and there'd be this process and selection would occur and not everybody would make it.

[Assistant] Okay, let's, let's leave that for a moment.

[User] So that was sort of the orientation.

[Assistant] So initial training took place at, in Milwaukee.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And it must have, you must have started language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was sort of the orientation.

[Assistant] So initial training took place at, in Milwaukee.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And it must have, you must have started language training?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's describe the structure of that and how that works.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's describe the structure of that and how that works.

[User] Language training was phenomenal. It was what we'd spent most of our time on. It was several hours a day. We had two sessions, morning and afternoon.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And even on Saturday there was a, one session of language. I want to say, it's my recollection, it was five or six hours.

[Assistant] Could be, yeah. Small group or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And even on Saturday there was a, one session of language. I want to say, it's my recollection, it was five or six hours.

[Assistant] Could be, yeah. Small group or?

[User] Small groups. I think there were three groups of 12 or 13.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Each one, each group had two native speakers. One was sort of the lead person. The other was more support.

[Assistant] And did they tend to be African Kenyans or white Kenyans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Each one, each group had two native speakers. One was sort of the lead person. The other was more support.

[Assistant] And did they tend to be African Kenyans or white Kenyans?

[User] All African Kenyans.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] All African Kenyans.

[Assistant] Graduate students in the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All African Kenyans.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] All African Kenyans.

[Assistant] Graduate students in the U.S.?

[User] Mostly. In fact, perhaps all either recent graduates, B.A. graduates, or currently graduate students.

[Assistant] Yeah. And did anyone indicate that your ability to learn the language would affect whether you became a volunteer or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly. In fact, perhaps all either recent graduates, B.A. graduates, or currently graduate students.

[Assistant] Yeah. And did anyone indicate that your ability to learn the language would affect whether you became a volunteer or not?

[User] I don't remember whether they put it that starkly. It was made clear that this was important, that we were going to be out in the field, out of Nairobi.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I don't know whether they said, you know, there's a specific level you have to attain to make it. But it was very clear that you had to do well enough to be in the field using it.

[Assistant] So the Milwaukee phase, then, there was intensive language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember whether they put it that starkly. It was made clear that this was important, that we were going to be out in the field, out of Nairobi.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I don't know whether they said, you know, there's a specific level you have to attain to make it. But it was very clear that you had to do well enough to be in the field using it.

[Assistant] So the Milwaukee phase, then, there was intensive language.

[User] Very intensive.

[Assistant] Did you also do some area studies, learning about Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know whether they said, you know, there's a specific level you have to attain to make it. But it was very clear that you had to do well enough to be in the field using it.

[Assistant] So the Milwaukee phase, then, there was intensive language.

[User] Very intensive.

[Assistant] Did you also do some area studies, learning about Kenya?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you remember who headed that up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you remember who headed that up?

[User] There were a number of people. One of the guys who actually became part of the permanent training staff was a fellow named Roger Simmons. Roger, interesting fellow. He, I think, graduated from Tufts and had an interest in Africa and ended up in Kenya, actually worked in settlement.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So somehow or another they found him or he found Peace Corps and they enlisted him as part of the staff.

[Assistant] He was an American?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were a number of people who came through that were really memorable. And Carl Rosberg, who was a famous Kenyan scholar, came in for a short residency of a couple, of three days.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Maybe the most memorable one was St. Clair Drake.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Who was a phenomenal presence.

[Assistant] Right. His main area of expertise is West Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And in fact, I remember one evening after class, we all went to some club in Milwaukee and St. Clair Drake taught us the highlife.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Smoking all along.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] So there was a fair amount of area studies done by a range of people, some of whom talked about politics. There were anthropologists. A couple of linguists.

[Assistant] Was some of it familiar to you because you had done some African studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there was a fair amount of area studies done by a range of people, some of whom talked about politics. There were anthropologists. A couple of linguists.

[Assistant] Was some of it familiar to you because you had done some African studies?

[User] Yeah, certainly the politics was. Rosberg was someone whose work I knew. And St. Clair Drake's work I knew.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So some of it was familiar to me.

[Assistant] Yeah. And was there also a component called American studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, certainly the politics was. Rosberg was someone whose work I knew. And St. Clair Drake's work I knew.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So some of it was familiar to me.

[Assistant] Yeah. And was there also a component called American studies?

[User] There was, I want to say there are some weird thing like ASWAC or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. American studies, world affairs, and communism.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was, I want to say there are some weird thing like ASWAC or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. American studies, world affairs, and communism.

[User] Yes. It's funny. It's coming back. Yeah. Some of that was okay. Some of it was strange. Some of it was almost like USIS propaganda.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Like the communist stuff. Yeah. But yeah, there was ASWAC. The American studies was interesting and sort of parallel to the African studies, you know, history, politics. The world affairs, I don't remember it specifically. But I remember the communism stuff was a little heavy handed.

[Assistant] Yeah. This is all still in the Milwaukee phase?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's funny. It's coming back. Yeah. Some of that was okay. Some of it was strange. Some of it was almost like USIS propaganda.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Like the communist stuff. Yeah. But yeah, there was ASWAC. The American studies was interesting and sort of parallel to the African studies, you know, history, politics. The world affairs, I don't remember it specifically. But I remember the communism stuff was a little heavy handed.

[Assistant] Yeah. This is all still in the Milwaukee phase?

[User] All in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] And it's like, it's an academic thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like the communist stuff. Yeah. But yeah, there was ASWAC. The American studies was interesting and sort of parallel to the African studies, you know, history, politics. The world affairs, I don't remember it specifically. But I remember the communism stuff was a little heavy handed.

[Assistant] Yeah. This is all still in the Milwaukee phase?

[User] All in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] And it's like, it's an academic thing?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Uh, did, um, well, let's continue. Another component of training is kind of a medical training, health education sort of. Was that there too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was there. Everything was in Milwaukee with one exemption.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We spent a week to ten days in Madison, where the agricultural animal husbandry component was conducted.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Making use of, I'm pretty sure they're all different people, folks who are connected to the university there in Madison.

[Assistant] At what point in training did that come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We spent a week to ten days in Madison, where the agricultural animal husbandry component was conducted.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Making use of, I'm pretty sure they're all different people, folks who are connected to the university there in Madison.

[Assistant] At what point in training did that come?

[User] I'm guessing maybe midway or a little bit past midway? It wasn't super early.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's stick with Milwaukee first.