[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did go to Russia. I remember one group that was over there and they telephoned back and said, "We're in London," or some place. We had just put mines in one of the harbors over there, among the enemy. They said, "Should we go on?" And the answer was—I guess they called the State Department, I don't know, but anyway, the answer was, "Yeah, sure, go ahead. If they kill you, we'll kill a bunch of them." [Laughter] So, anyhow, but the people kind of enjoyed their trips over there because it was different. And they had get-togethers here. One of the things you could always be sure of in a get-together here, they'd have boiled potatoes and butter. [Laughter] And vodka.

[Assistant] Do you remember any particular technical or even personal issues that came into play during ASTP, from your perspective?

[User] No, I don't remember that we had any tremendous issues, technical issues or nontechnical issues that were a problem, as I recall.

[Assistant] Perhaps any advice for those people working now on the International Space Station with the Russians, from your experience there?

[User] Well, we're in a different circumstance. Actually, another branch of the government and the head of our government has arranged for us to do what we're doing, and it's kind of a bailout. We're interested [there] in not making money by selling things that they have, and the technology that they have to certain other places, and I guess we're paying the price. From a space-only standpoint, it's a losing cause. However, from an overall standpoint, that's out of my pay grade. I don't know if it's a losing cause or not. [Laughter]

[Assistant] With the Space Shuttle, obviously we're going to have a new vehicle here that's completely reusable. That was the thought in the first place. What challenges did this reusability have for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as you decrease size in some electronics, you can have interference between—in one box you can have interference, so you make it as small as you can and you have the shielding that's required. As you're making things smaller, you're raising the temperature points. In the old days we had problems with transistors burning out because of temperature problems. So the temperature and self-interference, I guess, in making things smaller is one of the things you have to take into consideration. There's tradeoffs both ways.

[Assistant] So how would you overcome that?

[User] Well, you have good heat removal wherever you put it. We had a development program at one time, using a power tube. I've reached another mental block. I can't say. But there is a device that—well, anyhow, it's the change of phase of a liquid that—well, anyway, we were using—it's a very well-known—[heat pipe]

[Assistant] Sublimator?

[User] No. You probably could buy one in a novelty store to cool your coffee. You stick it in there and it would cool it right away. Well, anyhow, we were working on different ways of lowering the temperature. As a matter of fact, I worked with my son one time using one of these [heat pipes] that he did in a science program, a very simple thing, and the one that I procured was for a temperature different than you would use there, but we used hot water. It would bring boiling water down to a very low degree in a short period of time. That was a long time ago, so they've been around a long time. But I can't say the name. Well, I've said the name of everything else today, so—[heat pipe].

[Assistant] You remained here until 1989.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you have good heat removal wherever you put it. We had a development program at one time, using a power tube. I've reached another mental block. I can't say. But there is a device that—well, anyhow, it's the change of phase of a liquid that—well, anyway, we were using—it's a very well-known—[heat pipe]

[Assistant] Sublimator?

[User] No. You probably could buy one in a novelty store to cool your coffee. You stick it in there and it would cool it right away. Well, anyhow, we were working on different ways of lowering the temperature. As a matter of fact, I worked with my son one time using one of these [heat pipes] that he did in a science program, a very simple thing, and the one that I procured was for a temperature different than you would use there, but we used hot water. It would bring boiling water down to a very low degree in a short period of time. That was a long time ago, so they've been around a long time. But I can't say the name. Well, I've said the name of everything else today, so—[heat pipe].

[Assistant] You remained here until 1989.

[User] I retired in '89.

[Assistant] So during that period of the Shuttle operations, do you remember any of the flights that stick out in your mind, either good or bad, related to your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. You probably could buy one in a novelty store to cool your coffee. You stick it in there and it would cool it right away. Well, anyhow, we were working on different ways of lowering the temperature. As a matter of fact, I worked with my son one time using one of these [heat pipes] that he did in a science program, a very simple thing, and the one that I procured was for a temperature different than you would use there, but we used hot water. It would bring boiling water down to a very low degree in a short period of time. That was a long time ago, so they've been around a long time. But I can't say the name. Well, I've said the name of everything else today, so—[heat pipe].

[Assistant] You remained here until 1989.

[User] I retired in '89.

[Assistant] So during that period of the Shuttle operations, do you remember any of the flights that stick out in your mind, either good or bad, related to your job?

[User] The flights, all the flights?

[Assistant] Shuttle in particular.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I retired in '89.

[Assistant] So during that period of the Shuttle operations, do you remember any of the flights that stick out in your mind, either good or bad, related to your job?

[User] The flights, all the flights?

[Assistant] Shuttle in particular.

[User] Well, of course, everybody remembers the\n\n Challenger\n\n . That was not a good memory. I guess that's the one that stands out. We were again shut down, you know, for a period of time as we were after the fire, and there was a great deal of soul-searching. It was the people who had the things that can explode and so forth, that had the greatest problem, but we had to go through all of our paperwork and make sure that everything had been done that could possibly be done to alleviate there being any other possibility of anything of that nature. It was a long, long process, and it was a process of everybody knew it was important and had to be done, but it was not an exhilarating process, let's put it that way. It wasn't exhilarating for the reason we were doing it, you know, the past reason we were doing it. But I guess that we looked at it as necessary for the future reason we were doing it.

[Assistant] What was the impact on your division?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The flights, all the flights?

[Assistant] Shuttle in particular.

[User] Well, of course, everybody remembers the\n\n Challenger\n\n . That was not a good memory. I guess that's the one that stands out. We were again shut down, you know, for a period of time as we were after the fire, and there was a great deal of soul-searching. It was the people who had the things that can explode and so forth, that had the greatest problem, but we had to go through all of our paperwork and make sure that everything had been done that could possibly be done to alleviate there being any other possibility of anything of that nature. It was a long, long process, and it was a process of everybody knew it was important and had to be done, but it was not an exhilarating process, let's put it that way. It wasn't exhilarating for the reason we were doing it, you know, the past reason we were doing it. But I guess that we looked at it as necessary for the future reason we were doing it.

[Assistant] What was the impact on your division?

[User] Well, we had to spend the same amount of time that the other people were doing, going through all of the work that had been done before.

[Assistant] Why did you choose to retire when you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the work I was doing in Polaris was the greatest accomplishment, because that was a race we couldn't lose. [I enjoyed and appreciated the opportunity to work on Apollo, which was one of the greatest feats of the century.]

[Assistant] And your greatest challenge?

[User] Well, I guess that was, because I had to work with this contract [Polaris work previously described], I had to work with the Air Force, I was using their money with their contractor, and I was delivering to another contractor, and that became a challenge. That was teaching you how to get along with people. If you're using their money, you know, you have to be—well, you have to be diplomatic, I guess may be the term. Everything has turned out reasonably well during my working life.

[Assistant] We appreciate you sharing that with us today, and we thank you for coming.

[User] Well, I thank you very much. You're very patient people for somebody just spewing out information.

[Assistant]
Before we wrap it up, I would like to ask both my colleagues if they have any questions for you, if that would be all right.

I have just a couple. You had mentioned earlier that you liked being on the East Coast and that your girlfriend, and then wife, had a lot of family there. What did you think of the move to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I figured I'd be in the Boston area forever. [Laughter] You know, early, until I went to Virginia. I kind of like living in the climate that we have here. People up North say, "We like the changes and we wouldn't want to go someplace where you—" We got changes. I mean, you know. We got changes. You know the difference between summer and winter here, and we have a spring and we have a fall. As a matter of fact, April and October, those are the two months. April and October. [Laughter] But you can do a lot worse than this area.

[Assistant] I'm glad it's worked out for you.

[User] Well, good. Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] How do you like it here?

[Assistant] Especially this time of year, it's pretty nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, good. Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] How do you like it here?

[Assistant] Especially this time of year, it's pretty nice.

[User] Where are you from?

[Assistant] I'm from Colorado.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where are you from?

[Assistant] I'm from Colorado.

[User] Well, you're from cold country. Everybody's close by.

[Assistant] It is.

[User] And you've been back occasionally. Well, we went back to Virginia this year. We had a big family reunion and we had over forty people there. It worked out perfectly. Had just enough planning done to work out well, and we all stayed in the same motel, and it was a great place, great place to eat. Then we really had our reunion at a place nearby, which one of my wife's nephews has, and he had a big swimming pool, took care of all the little kids. They could do their thing. We had barbecue, had so much that we went back the next day and had some more.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before I read about Jerrie Cobb?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I didn't even know about it. It was not something we knew about. It was just as new as new. We didn't know what "astronaut" meant.

[Assistant] So you just jumped into it.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Not knowing anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't even know about it. It was not something we knew about. It was just as new as new. We didn't know what "astronaut" meant.

[Assistant] So you just jumped into it.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Not knowing anything.

[User] I knew that was for me. I wanted to go into exploration. I've always sort of been an explorer in my youth.

[Assistant] Great. And you've continued to be an explorer. You're exploring still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Not knowing anything.

[User] I knew that was for me. I wanted to go into exploration. I've always sort of been an explorer in my youth.

[Assistant] Great. And you've continued to be an explorer. You're exploring still.

[User] Yes. I hope to go on to Russia with the Zegrahm Voyages and be a part of a cross-training of American astronauts and Russian cosmonauts so that we can use their facility at Star City and go through some of the same tests that Eileen's gone through in Houston. I've been down to Houston many times. I've observed what she has done and what the astronauts are doing down there, but I could never have the chance of partaking in such a wonderful schooling.

[Assistant] It will be interesting to see how the training that you're able to go through in Star City measures up with the testing and training that you did do earlier when you first started out as a twenty-one-year-old, not knowing anything about the space opportunities.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew that was for me. I wanted to go into exploration. I've always sort of been an explorer in my youth.

[Assistant] Great. And you've continued to be an explorer. You're exploring still.

[User] Yes. I hope to go on to Russia with the Zegrahm Voyages and be a part of a cross-training of American astronauts and Russian cosmonauts so that we can use their facility at Star City and go through some of the same tests that Eileen's gone through in Houston. I've been down to Houston many times. I've observed what she has done and what the astronauts are doing down there, but I could never have the chance of partaking in such a wonderful schooling.

[Assistant] It will be interesting to see how the training that you're able to go through in Star City measures up with the testing and training that you did do earlier when you first started out as a twenty-one-year-old, not knowing anything about the space opportunities.

[User] Well, what's interesting about your statement is, we've come such a long way in technology, that the things that I was tested on people aren't tested on anymore. They were testing us to our extremes, to how much can we take of ten-degree water being injected into our ears, and how fast is our eye going to stare at a particular object, and I'd have no control over my body. And was I going to fall off or not? Yes, I would have if I wouldn't have been strapped into a dentist chair. Or what would I do in a tank of water, and the humidity of the room that was so perfect controlled to my temperature that I couldn't feel the water on my hands or my face because there was no hearing, smelling? All your senses were taken away from you, and you were to stay in there as long as possible. And I broke the record of ten hours and thirty-five minutes.

[Assistant] That must have been a very interesting experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To answer your last question first, no. I had not a shadow of a doubt. I was their subject. They could do anything with me that they wanted to do. I didn't know that you could get X-rayed from head to toe and it would take a whole day, and every single tooth and every single bone, but they wanted perfect specimens at that time.\n\n Now, let's go back to the men, the Mercury. There were 159 men selected from the armed services to go through these tests at Lovelace. How many were selected?

[Assistant] Seven.

[User] Twenty-five women were selected, and how many passed? Thirteen. So do we have a little bit of information here on how well do women do things? How well did they come across on the Mayflower? Terrific. How well did they go across the prairies and settle the West in their covered wagons? Great. Big families. Didn't think anything about it. Why can't we fly and go into space? The men today that think that we can't, as women, do things, sorry, folks, we can do it. A woman—and I'm sure Eileen has tried extra hard to do her best, because nobody wants to fail, and failure is not a part of my makeup. I do the best I can do and I kick as many doors in as I possibly can, no matter where I go.

[Assistant] And you have fun doing it, I'm sure. [Laughter]

[User] Oh, yes. I love life. You bet.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. That's the way to do it. You've got to enjoy life. As you were doing the testing, you said you didn't know any of the other women that were going through it, but you had, of course, read about Jerrie Cobb. After you were done with the first phase, what contact did you have with people running the program or with Dr. Lovelace? How did it continue that you could go on with the next phases of the testing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty-five women were selected, and how many passed? Thirteen. So do we have a little bit of information here on how well do women do things? How well did they come across on the Mayflower? Terrific. How well did they go across the prairies and settle the West in their covered wagons? Great. Big families. Didn't think anything about it. Why can't we fly and go into space? The men today that think that we can't, as women, do things, sorry, folks, we can do it. A woman—and I'm sure Eileen has tried extra hard to do her best, because nobody wants to fail, and failure is not a part of my makeup. I do the best I can do and I kick as many doors in as I possibly can, no matter where I go.

[Assistant] And you have fun doing it, I'm sure. [Laughter]

[User] Oh, yes. I love life. You bet.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. That's the way to do it. You've got to enjoy life. As you were doing the testing, you said you didn't know any of the other women that were going through it, but you had, of course, read about Jerrie Cobb. After you were done with the first phase, what contact did you have with people running the program or with Dr. Lovelace? How did it continue that you could go on with the next phases of the testing?

[User] I found out what Jerrie Cobb had done down in Pensacola [Florida], because she had done this about six months to a year prior to my going through. [Interruption. Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] We were talking about how you became involved in the second round of the testing and how you found out even about the opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then on top of it, in the eighties I went to Space Camp [Huntsville, Alabama] for a week. So I've done everything I could possibly do to learn and grasp more about the wonderful world of space travel.

[Assistant] That's great. It's good to see you being so interested in maintaining that enthusiasm. That helps to pass it on to others.

[User] Absolutely. Kids today have a wealth of knowledge, if they just have parents or a teacher to say, "You can do anything you want to do and go after it." The encouragement of going after it, taking all the math and science and engineering courses throughout. And kids are on computers today. The youngsters that I'm teaching to fly today, I've got a sixteen- and a seventeen-year-old this summer that I'm teaching. They're grasping flying, and I'm soloing them at seven and eight hours because of the computer industry, that they're learning to fly on the computers. So this is pretty neat.

[Assistant] A whole new way to learn.

[User] I mean, there's no way to teach me. When I learned, I learned by the seat of my pants. You show me, then I respond. And that's exactly how I learned to fly. It wasn't really out of reading a book; it was show and tell. In my acrobatic instruction, I would look at the picture, have somebody show me, and off I'd go.

[Assistant] A good way to learn, just by doing it as you go. While you were doing the testing, shortly after that they had congressional hearings actually dealing with bringing women in as astronauts when NASA was hiring the second group of male astronauts. Were you aware of those at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, there's no way to teach me. When I learned, I learned by the seat of my pants. You show me, then I respond. And that's exactly how I learned to fly. It wasn't really out of reading a book; it was show and tell. In my acrobatic instruction, I would look at the picture, have somebody show me, and off I'd go.

[Assistant] A good way to learn, just by doing it as you go. While you were doing the testing, shortly after that they had congressional hearings actually dealing with bringing women in as astronauts when NASA was hiring the second group of male astronauts. Were you aware of those at the time?

[User] I can't really remember. I don't remember exactly where I was at that period of time, and I've been asked that over and over again. I don't think that any of us knew what Jerrie and Janie Hart had to prepare themselves to do, to go and defend us as a group. Now, mind you, we didn't know each other yet. And so I knew Jackie Cochran. She'd been very generous to support phase one financially, and I've had wonderful letters from her and from Jerrie Cobb, but I didn't realize. Here I was out of the country, where I was so buried in my work that I didn't realize under after it was over with, that these hearings had gone on. And then that's when we found out the parameters are jet test pilot experience to be an astronaut, which let us out of the league.

[Assistant] For the time being, at least.

[User] Yes, yes. Thank you for asking that, because Eileen did it. Yes. We have three girl test pilots, and I think we've got two female, Eileen and another gal, that are testing, because Eileen has to have a backup, a girl backup.

[Assistant] And hopefully we'll be seeing more and more as time is going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't really remember. I don't remember exactly where I was at that period of time, and I've been asked that over and over again. I don't think that any of us knew what Jerrie and Janie Hart had to prepare themselves to do, to go and defend us as a group. Now, mind you, we didn't know each other yet. And so I knew Jackie Cochran. She'd been very generous to support phase one financially, and I've had wonderful letters from her and from Jerrie Cobb, but I didn't realize. Here I was out of the country, where I was so buried in my work that I didn't realize under after it was over with, that these hearings had gone on. And then that's when we found out the parameters are jet test pilot experience to be an astronaut, which let us out of the league.

[Assistant] For the time being, at least.

[User] Yes, yes. Thank you for asking that, because Eileen did it. Yes. We have three girl test pilots, and I think we've got two female, Eileen and another gal, that are testing, because Eileen has to have a backup, a girl backup.

[Assistant] And hopefully we'll be seeing more and more as time is going on.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] As you said, you were traveling overseas for lengths of time. You had your career in aviation. Tell us some about that, if you would, an overview of what you continued to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure did.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] And I got forty-five minutes with Valentina. My first questions were, "How did your parents feel?" Well, she had been taken from her parents as a child. The father went to one labor camp, the mother went to another labor camp, and she was raised in a child labor camp. She was brought up as a textile factory worker. Everybody in Russia can have an extracurricular activity. Hers was parachuting. So then you put it together. Obviously they took her for her parachuting qualities. I think she had about 350 jumps. They say that she really hadn't been schooled that much on the capsule, and she was told what to do.\n\n This is what kind of is interesting, the fact that we could have done it if they would just let us. A dog did it. A monkey did it. Man did it. Woman can do it. We had to wait thirty-some years for Eileen to do it, to show us.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, but good finally.

[User] Yes, finally for progress.

[Assistant] Was it fascinating to be able to meet Valentina Tereshkova and talk with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I got forty-five minutes with Valentina. My first questions were, "How did your parents feel?" Well, she had been taken from her parents as a child. The father went to one labor camp, the mother went to another labor camp, and she was raised in a child labor camp. She was brought up as a textile factory worker. Everybody in Russia can have an extracurricular activity. Hers was parachuting. So then you put it together. Obviously they took her for her parachuting qualities. I think she had about 350 jumps. They say that she really hadn't been schooled that much on the capsule, and she was told what to do.\n\n This is what kind of is interesting, the fact that we could have done it if they would just let us. A dog did it. A monkey did it. Man did it. Woman can do it. We had to wait thirty-some years for Eileen to do it, to show us.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, but good finally.

[User] Yes, finally for progress.

[Assistant] Was it fascinating to be able to meet Valentina Tereshkova and talk with her?

[User] Very, but she was very guarded. Of course she would be. She held a position in Moscow as the first lady. Rather interesting. If you lived in a block of buildings and you were to report to her if there was any misconduct in your building, it was your Russian duty to report to her if you overheard anything, if anything was against the government, and this is the way they worked their system.

[Assistant] Very different society.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, finally for progress.

[Assistant] Was it fascinating to be able to meet Valentina Tereshkova and talk with her?

[User] Very, but she was very guarded. Of course she would be. She held a position in Moscow as the first lady. Rather interesting. If you lived in a block of buildings and you were to report to her if there was any misconduct in your building, it was your Russian duty to report to her if you overheard anything, if anything was against the government, and this is the way they worked their system.

[Assistant] Very different society.

[User] In fact, when our astronauts go over—and I've heard this from Shannon [Lucid]—it was a terrible time. The food, the quality, the housing, the clothing, the fact that Shannon didn't get all her gear for a month up into the Soyuz and into the module that they were circling the earth with, was really too bad, but she told me about her experiences. I'm looking forward to going to Russia, and I hope it will be a little bit different than what Shannon experienced, but yet when we have the Russians come over to America, what do we do? We put them up in a nice place to stay, a car or a chauffeur-driven car, clothing, great experiences. But this is just the difference in cultures. You're right.

[Assistant] Very interesting differences. Quite. You continued to be a pioneer in aviation for women, went on to work with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board. How did those opportunities arise for you? How did you find out about the openings and move into them? What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a great challenge, yes, but very interesting, and every accident investigation was different.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I'm sure it was a learning experience, too, to see all the different considerations, safety considerations and things to watch out for.

[User] That's correct. You hit on a very good word, of "safety," because most of the accidents, there has been a safety problem with that accident, either by pilot not taking heed or maybe the mechanic or maybe the aircraft itself.\n\n That's one of the reasons why I retired early, because I wanted to take my Wally Funk Safety slide presentation around the world, in the United States, to universities and colleges, and show them why people crash into mountains on a clear day. It's incredible. I mean, in the middle of Arizona is Taylor Mountain. Or, no, excuse me. Flagstaff. Can't recall the name of the mountain right now. Looking around it, and yet I've done several accidents where people are coming and going right into that particular peak, and that was the only peak for maybe hundreds of miles. I climbed that one many a time. I've gotten to many accidents by horse, by mule, by helicopter, by repelling, by being dropped down, by boat, walking. You name it, I've gotten there.

[Assistant] Quite an active life you've had.

[User] Yes, I've loved every bit of it. Wouldn't change it for the world.

[Assistant] That's great. I hope that I'm able to say that and still be enjoying life as much as you in my own few years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I've loved every bit of it. Wouldn't change it for the world.

[Assistant] That's great. I hope that I'm able to say that and still be enjoying life as much as you in my own few years.

[User] Well, I've got a lot to do. I've got fifty more years of stuff to do, so—

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] —I've got to keep on going.

[Assistant] And I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. You mentioned earlier that you hadn't known any of the women that went through the Mercury testing with you at the time. You knew Jerrie Cobb and Jackie Cochran, but not the others that had passed, and that you only got to meet them a few years ago. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I've got a lot to do. I've got fifty more years of stuff to do, so—

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] —I've got to keep on going.

[Assistant] And I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. You mentioned earlier that you hadn't known any of the women that went through the Mercury testing with you at the time. You knew Jerrie Cobb and Jackie Cochran, but not the others that had passed, and that you only got to meet them a few years ago. What was that like?

[User] It was pretty neat. Being the youngest, I was outvoted on who was going to talk first, so I sat there and listened a lot. And I did have my camera, so I got to film a lot of what was going on in the various impromptu little clutches that we would get into. And every time we'd get together, there's more stories that come out, because they've all thought of things, especially some of the girls that went together. See, I was by myself, so I didn't have anybody to talk to. But they, being older, could have each other to talk to or they'd talk more to the doctors and the nurses more than I would be. I just considered myself a subject, and I was there to take tests and I didn't ask questions. I just was there.\n\n So I still listen. I listen to their stories, because I didn't have the fascinating stories. I've told you some of my experiences, but some of them, like Sarah [Gorelick] Ratley, she said she had her hair all done up the day before she went to Lovelace. And, of course, the minute you go in, you're handed a weekly sheet of expectations, and the first thing was "Wash your hair thoroughly and don't do anything with it. And you're going to take an enema." Da-da, da-da, da-da. So we did everything we were supposed to.

[Assistant] Amazing. Interesting. Interesting. And now how have you kept in contact then since you've all met and kept up regular correspondence or meetings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we have Jerri [Sloan] Truhill is our gal that everybody calls and gives information to, and when we come down here to the Cape to see Eileen off, we all get together, those of us that can still travel.

[Assistant] That's good. That's great to see you all still keeping together and keeping up. When did you find out that Eileen was going to have the opportunity to pilot the shuttle?

[User] Gosh. I think we met back in mid eighties. She had just been hired by NASA. At the Women in Aviation conference in Las Vegas.\n\n The Women in Aviation is a large organization now that encompasses all girls that want to fly around the world, whether you want to fly for the airlines or for commuters or, as I am, a chief pilot, or just as a beginning flight student or a NASA individual like Eileen. We've all been speakers. This has opened the floodgates to let people know there's an organization for young people to come to, to find out about military, to find out what's out there for them. Peggy Baty from Dayton, Ohio, is the one that started this organization. We've just had our tenth anniversary. We meet the second week of every March somewhere in the United States.\n\n Women in Aviation International has probably given out hundreds of thousands of scholarships for the airline industry, for anything that any girl wants to apply for. Those things are out there. We teach people how to get hold of scholarships, to use Pell grants. None of this was even remotely thought of fifteen years ago when I was struggling and getting my licenses and what Jerrie and all the rest of the girls had to do to get their licenses.

[Assistant] That's wonderful to be able to work with a young generation and to help them have the exciting experiences you have.

[User] Yes. And when you interview the WASPs [Women Airforce Service Pilots], you'll find you're going back in time even more. They helped open the gates for us in Women in Aviation and for us getting into some of the space program.

[Assistant] And I'm guessing many of them are involved in the Women in Aviation group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And when you interview the WASPs [Women Airforce Service Pilots], you'll find you're going back in time even more. They helped open the gates for us in Women in Aviation and for us getting into some of the space program.

[Assistant] And I'm guessing many of them are involved in the Women in Aviation group.

[User] Absolutely. And also the Forest of Friendship inducted quite a few ladies in Atchison, Kansas, in middle of June this year, and I suspect there were about twenty there. You see, there's about four or five organizations where we all see each other through the year, whether you're a helicopter pilot, fixed-wing pilot, Women in Aviation, or Forest of Friendship up at Amelia Earhart's home town of Atchison, Kansas.

[Assistant] A good network.

[User] Yes, yes, a great network today.

[Assistant] You mentioned all the different types of pilots there can be, and you've flown a variety of different aircraft, if I'm correct. Was there a favorite that you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. And also the Forest of Friendship inducted quite a few ladies in Atchison, Kansas, in middle of June this year, and I suspect there were about twenty there. You see, there's about four or five organizations where we all see each other through the year, whether you're a helicopter pilot, fixed-wing pilot, Women in Aviation, or Forest of Friendship up at Amelia Earhart's home town of Atchison, Kansas.

[Assistant] A good network.

[User] Yes, yes, a great network today.

[Assistant] You mentioned all the different types of pilots there can be, and you've flown a variety of different aircraft, if I'm correct. Was there a favorite that you had?

[User] Yes, a Stearman. It's an old bi-wing, open-cockpit airplane, and I owned one as a youngster. Well, "as a youngster," as a twenty-two-year-old in Hawthorne, California. Silly me, I sold it when I wanted to go overseas, because I couldn't get anybody to work on the radial engine. And jets were just coming in, and of course to find a mechanic to work on a radial or a cylinder type of an engine when they could be out there working on a jet engine, nuh-uh, unheard of. I sold it for—audience will love this—$3,000. Today that airplane is worth, in good shape, $130,000.\n\n And I'll go up to somebody that's got a nice Stearman and I'll say, "Can I have a ride? Can I pay you for a ride? I used to own one of these. I've got about 3,000 hours in one, and T-6s and WACOs, all the old war birds."\n\n "Well, I don't know. You have to take our course."\n\n "Okay, let's go for a ride." [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] Oh, that's—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I did make an advertisement in the early eighties for Merrill Lynch, and I flew a Stearman, and I did all kinds of acrobatics and did a big enough loop where I could have a helicopter run through. It was wonderful, because Mother could be in the chase plane, and she'd never seen me perform. For Merrill Lynch, as I went into the sun, the bull was coming out of the sun, and then I had some words to say. But as we were going back home and the sun was setting, Mother was in the chase plane and I was right next to her, and we were both tears coming down our eyes because we could be up in the air together. She had her wish and passed on to her daughter with the gene of flying.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. That must have meant so much to her.

[User] And I didn't know about the gene until about four years ago. She just had told me. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Your mother sounds like a really wonderful woman.

[User] She was. She was great. She was everything to me.

[Assistant] That's great. Nice to have so much support at home. That must have helped in your career in being able to have so much fun at what you did, to have her as such a support and a friend.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I didn't know about the gene until about four years ago. She just had told me. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Your mother sounds like a really wonderful woman.

[User] She was. She was great. She was everything to me.

[Assistant] That's great. Nice to have so much support at home. That must have helped in your career in being able to have so much fun at what you did, to have her as such a support and a friend.

[User] They both were. Mind you, I grew up in an area where you had free spirit. There was no reins. I was brought up by the Indians of a Taos pueblo, and they taught me how to fish and hunt and camp at a very early age, and survive the wilderness. So I had all that going for myself, where a youngster today is in a city, in an apartment, and that's all they know. They don't know ocean and skiing and snow and air as I was able to know it, and that's why I thank the good Lord for putting me where he put me.

[Assistant] You were in a wonderful environment, it sounds like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was. She was great. She was everything to me.

[Assistant] That's great. Nice to have so much support at home. That must have helped in your career in being able to have so much fun at what you did, to have her as such a support and a friend.

[User] They both were. Mind you, I grew up in an area where you had free spirit. There was no reins. I was brought up by the Indians of a Taos pueblo, and they taught me how to fish and hunt and camp at a very early age, and survive the wilderness. So I had all that going for myself, where a youngster today is in a city, in an apartment, and that's all they know. They don't know ocean and skiing and snow and air as I was able to know it, and that's why I thank the good Lord for putting me where he put me.

[Assistant] You were in a wonderful environment, it sounds like.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] The future. We were talking earlier, and you had quite an exciting future in front of you. You mentioned going over to Russia to do the training, but you're also gearing up for—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They both were. Mind you, I grew up in an area where you had free spirit. There was no reins. I was brought up by the Indians of a Taos pueblo, and they taught me how to fish and hunt and camp at a very early age, and survive the wilderness. So I had all that going for myself, where a youngster today is in a city, in an apartment, and that's all they know. They don't know ocean and skiing and snow and air as I was able to know it, and that's why I thank the good Lord for putting me where he put me.

[Assistant] You were in a wonderful environment, it sounds like.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] The future. We were talking earlier, and you had quite an exciting future in front of you. You mentioned going over to Russia to do the training, but you're also gearing up for—

[User] Yes, I'm gearing up to go into space, and it's really going to happen. I always knew, even though the Mercury tests were stopped, I knew that I would one day go up. It's in my bones. I knew it. And, sure enough, a company called Zegrahm Voyages out of Seattle, Washington, has the plans to put a vehicle into space with a space cruiser attached underneath. And what will happen is that the mothership will take the space cruiser up to the troposphere and peel off, and then the space cruiser will then go into orbit. And they'll only have nine of us on board. It's going to take a lot of training before we get to go up, but by space Star City training will help for that, of course. And I'm going to have my nose pressed against that window as hard as it can go and watch what the astronauts see when they could around. And I'm not going to have any duties.

[Assistant] That's the best way to go. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] The future. We were talking earlier, and you had quite an exciting future in front of you. You mentioned going over to Russia to do the training, but you're also gearing up for—

[User] Yes, I'm gearing up to go into space, and it's really going to happen. I always knew, even though the Mercury tests were stopped, I knew that I would one day go up. It's in my bones. I knew it. And, sure enough, a company called Zegrahm Voyages out of Seattle, Washington, has the plans to put a vehicle into space with a space cruiser attached underneath. And what will happen is that the mothership will take the space cruiser up to the troposphere and peel off, and then the space cruiser will then go into orbit. And they'll only have nine of us on board. It's going to take a lot of training before we get to go up, but by space Star City training will help for that, of course. And I'm going to have my nose pressed against that window as hard as it can go and watch what the astronauts see when they could around. And I'm not going to have any duties.

[Assistant] That's the best way to go. [Laughter]

[User] I'm going to go as a paying passenger.

[Assistant] And be able to look all you want.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I'm gearing up to go into space, and it's really going to happen. I always knew, even though the Mercury tests were stopped, I knew that I would one day go up. It's in my bones. I knew it. And, sure enough, a company called Zegrahm Voyages out of Seattle, Washington, has the plans to put a vehicle into space with a space cruiser attached underneath. And what will happen is that the mothership will take the space cruiser up to the troposphere and peel off, and then the space cruiser will then go into orbit. And they'll only have nine of us on board. It's going to take a lot of training before we get to go up, but by space Star City training will help for that, of course. And I'm going to have my nose pressed against that window as hard as it can go and watch what the astronauts see when they could around. And I'm not going to have any duties.

[Assistant] That's the best way to go. [Laughter]

[User] I'm going to go as a paying passenger.

[Assistant] And be able to look all you want.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] That will be fabulous. Hopefully we'll be able to have a chance to sit down and talk afterwards.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] That will be fabulous. Hopefully we'll be able to have a chance to sit down and talk afterwards.

[User] You will. Maybe you can come to the launch, because the launch will be somewhere in California. Because, you see, the vehicle will be able to take off and land at an airport.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] That's how it's being designed.

[Assistant] I'll put it in on my calendar. I'll definitely be there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You will. Maybe you can come to the launch, because the launch will be somewhere in California. Because, you see, the vehicle will be able to take off and land at an airport.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] That's how it's being designed.

[Assistant] I'll put it in on my calendar. I'll definitely be there.

[User] 2002 or 2003.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Looking back, what was the most challenging aspect for you in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's how it's being designed.

[Assistant] I'll put it in on my calendar. I'll definitely be there.

[User] 2002 or 2003.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Looking back, what was the most challenging aspect for you in your career?

[User] Ooh. Career. Not tests?

[Assistant] Well, tests, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 2002 or 2003.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Looking back, what was the most challenging aspect for you in your career?

[User] Ooh. Career. Not tests?

[Assistant] Well, tests, too.

[User] No, I can't say that my tests have been a challenge, because I went in not knowing what was going to happen to me. So nothing was preconceived.\n\n Challenging. I suspect when I was an investigator and going to all the schools that the NTSB allowed me. I went to five schools a year. I went to every aircraft manufacturer, engine manufacturer, propeller manufacturer, and any of the parts that go with any of the engines. That was challenging. Going to an accident investigation of a large magnitude was challenging. But we always came up with a solution.\n\n Today it takes much longer because we've having more accidents, unfortunately, and we don't have the manpower—excuse me—the peoplepower. But in my tenure in the office in Los Angeles [California], we had three states, the entire South Pacific to have as our territory, and there were only six of us. So we were really scattered, and I was on the road about every third or fourth day. So I had a life that was on to the beeper. We didn't have faxes in those days. We didn't even have ways of transmitting information. It was the good old phone and pagers were just coming in.

[Assistant] You certainly have seen a lot of change in technology since you started out, both in aviation technology and just—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ooh. Career. Not tests?

[Assistant] Well, tests, too.

[User] No, I can't say that my tests have been a challenge, because I went in not knowing what was going to happen to me. So nothing was preconceived.\n\n Challenging. I suspect when I was an investigator and going to all the schools that the NTSB allowed me. I went to five schools a year. I went to every aircraft manufacturer, engine manufacturer, propeller manufacturer, and any of the parts that go with any of the engines. That was challenging. Going to an accident investigation of a large magnitude was challenging. But we always came up with a solution.\n\n Today it takes much longer because we've having more accidents, unfortunately, and we don't have the manpower—excuse me—the peoplepower. But in my tenure in the office in Los Angeles [California], we had three states, the entire South Pacific to have as our territory, and there were only six of us. So we were really scattered, and I was on the road about every third or fourth day. So I had a life that was on to the beeper. We didn't have faxes in those days. We didn't even have ways of transmitting information. It was the good old phone and pagers were just coming in.

[Assistant] You certainly have seen a lot of change in technology since you started out, both in aviation technology and just—

[User] General

[Assistant]
—general technology.

Anytime I teach somebody to fly, it's a challenge. Of course, going back to our earlier conversation, the kids of today are great. But if I take a person who has not had any athletic abilities, they're a challenge, because I've got to teach them eye-hand coordination, and that takes a long time. One thing I can't teach, and that is good old common sense.

And that's very important. What would you consider your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] General

[Assistant]
—general technology.

Anytime I teach somebody to fly, it's a challenge. Of course, going back to our earlier conversation, the kids of today are great. But if I take a person who has not had any athletic abilities, they're a challenge, because I've got to teach them eye-hand coordination, and that takes a long time. One thing I can't teach, and that is good old common sense.

And that's very important. What would you consider your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Well, golly, gee whiz. I haven't gotten there yet. [Laughter] If I can make it through Star City and I can make it into space, that would be it. But everything has been like building up to it, and I've had wonderful experiences and wonderful accomplishments, and I couldn't do it without all the people that were helping to push behind me and seizing opportunities. It's recognition of the opportunity.

[Assistant] That's a very important factor that I'm sure you pass on to your students, to take advantage of those opportunities when they come up.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I want to thank you for sharing so much with us today. It's been fascinating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, golly, gee whiz. I haven't gotten there yet. [Laughter] If I can make it through Star City and I can make it into space, that would be it. But everything has been like building up to it, and I've had wonderful experiences and wonderful accomplishments, and I couldn't do it without all the people that were helping to push behind me and seizing opportunities. It's recognition of the opportunity.

[Assistant] That's a very important factor that I'm sure you pass on to your students, to take advantage of those opportunities when they come up.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I want to thank you for sharing so much with us today. It's been fascinating.

[User] It's been my pleasure to be here with you, and I hope that all your viewers will enjoy it as much as I have.

[Assistant] I'm sure they will. They'll enjoy as much as I have. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. It really, really was. But all of that—I can neither explain why nor explain the sensation, but the exhilaration of flying that thing solo was as—I desperately wanted to go down and land, but, boy, you really need both. It’s just really too much, and there’s just so much there.\n\n One of these days I thought, well, maybe I’ll go get somebody to hypnotize me and see if they can extract better descriptions of things that I have seen that I can’t remember. I don’t know.

[Assistant] And there are so few of you who have seen those images in that—

[User] Well, and unfortunately, we get some beautiful pictures, but they are nothing, nothing. I don’t know why. It may all be psychological. But no picture comes—I mean, I’ve seen some beautiful pictures, but they just are not the same. You really see this in the Shuttle when you get up there and you have a bay window now instead of a peephole, and you’ve got all of the Earth’s colors. We kept taking color pictures of the Moon, but I don’t know why, because it’s only got one color. It’s shades of black.

[Assistant] Especially when you were on the back side of the Moon, did you feel totally alone? Or did you enjoy that time when you were really alone because—

[User] Yes. Both. I enjoyed it, and there was so much chatter and stuff going on, you know, you like to have time to just get away for a minute.

[Assistant] It must have been very peaceful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, and unfortunately, we get some beautiful pictures, but they are nothing, nothing. I don’t know why. It may all be psychological. But no picture comes—I mean, I’ve seen some beautiful pictures, but they just are not the same. You really see this in the Shuttle when you get up there and you have a bay window now instead of a peephole, and you’ve got all of the Earth’s colors. We kept taking color pictures of the Moon, but I don’t know why, because it’s only got one color. It’s shades of black.

[Assistant] Especially when you were on the back side of the Moon, did you feel totally alone? Or did you enjoy that time when you were really alone because—

[User] Yes. Both. I enjoyed it, and there was so much chatter and stuff going on, you know, you like to have time to just get away for a minute.

[Assistant] It must have been very peaceful.

[User] The combination of putting music with it is the—I mean, that’s why I think some day in the future that this tourism stuff is going to be blockbuster. It’s not here today or tomorrow, but it is going to come, because the first cat who comes back and says, “You know where I was last week?” And, boy, the lines will form.

[Assistant] When you hear the music, does it bring back those images?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Both. I enjoyed it, and there was so much chatter and stuff going on, you know, you like to have time to just get away for a minute.

[Assistant] It must have been very peaceful.

[User] The combination of putting music with it is the—I mean, that’s why I think some day in the future that this tourism stuff is going to be blockbuster. It’s not here today or tomorrow, but it is going to come, because the first cat who comes back and says, “You know where I was last week?” And, boy, the lines will form.

[Assistant] When you hear the music, does it bring back those images?

[User] You know, I haven’t heard the music in a long time. I mean, Berlioz, you hear that played a lot. I haven’t played the Grand Prix in a long time. It would be an interesting thing to try. I’ve got most of that stuff packed away, but I might have to try that.

[Assistant] I’d be interested to hear your results of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My name is Carol Peiffer. My address is [address], Evans City, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And Carol, could you describe your current residence?

[User] I live in a single-family home on a double lot in a small town, just a block away from the main street. So I have access to groceries, post office, bank, that kind of thing. My husband and I lived there together with four cats, and we have many more rooms than what we need. But we are two of the world's biggest pack rats, and so we have filled it up.

[Assistant] And Carol, what do you do for a living now?

[User] Well, I'm working as a customer service representative for Verizon Wireless. After retiring from teaching for 32 years.

[Assistant] And do you have any other family beside your husband?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I live in a single-family home on a double lot in a small town, just a block away from the main street. So I have access to groceries, post office, bank, that kind of thing. My husband and I lived there together with four cats, and we have many more rooms than what we need. But we are two of the world's biggest pack rats, and so we have filled it up.

[Assistant] And Carol, what do you do for a living now?

[User] Well, I'm working as a customer service representative for Verizon Wireless. After retiring from teaching for 32 years.

[Assistant] And do you have any other family beside your husband?

[User] Yes. My mother is still living. She's 89, and my father and my older sister are both deceased. And I have two nieces that were my sister's children and their families.

[Assistant] Do you have any interests outside of work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm working as a customer service representative for Verizon Wireless. After retiring from teaching for 32 years.

[Assistant] And do you have any other family beside your husband?

[User] Yes. My mother is still living. She's 89, and my father and my older sister are both deceased. And I have two nieces that were my sister's children and their families.

[Assistant] Do you have any interests outside of work?

[User] Sure, I do a lot of writing. I've been. I do. I write short stories. I've been working forever on my Peace Corps novel. And I do a lot of artwork and I've done everything from weaving, ceramics, painting, drawing. But currently, and for about the last five years, I've been doing all digital artwork.

[Assistant] Think back to your life before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you live at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. My mother is still living. She's 89, and my father and my older sister are both deceased. And I have two nieces that were my sister's children and their families.

[Assistant] Do you have any interests outside of work?

[User] Sure, I do a lot of writing. I've been. I do. I write short stories. I've been working forever on my Peace Corps novel. And I do a lot of artwork and I've done everything from weaving, ceramics, painting, drawing. But currently, and for about the last five years, I've been doing all digital artwork.

[Assistant] Think back to your life before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you live at that time?

[User] I lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh. And it was my father and my mother and my sister, who was three years older than me. My father was a postal worker and had other side jobs. My mother was mainly a homemaker. However, she did occasionally work as an extra at a department store. My sister and I both went to college. I studied art and got my degree in art education right before I went to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you feel that any of your earlier life was relevant to your later Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, I do a lot of writing. I've been. I do. I write short stories. I've been working forever on my Peace Corps novel. And I do a lot of artwork and I've done everything from weaving, ceramics, painting, drawing. But currently, and for about the last five years, I've been doing all digital artwork.

[Assistant] Think back to your life before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you live at that time?

[User] I lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh. And it was my father and my mother and my sister, who was three years older than me. My father was a postal worker and had other side jobs. My mother was mainly a homemaker. However, she did occasionally work as an extra at a department store. My sister and I both went to college. I studied art and got my degree in art education right before I went to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you feel that any of your earlier life was relevant to your later Peace Corps experience?

[User] Well, my parents were people who were involved in volunteering. For example, my mother worked with Girl Scouts, worked with church activities and so on. Like my father did the same. He always said he was a Girl Scout leader, too, because he always helped out. And we did things like camping, which was really good experience for being in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did you first hear about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh. And it was my father and my mother and my sister, who was three years older than me. My father was a postal worker and had other side jobs. My mother was mainly a homemaker. However, she did occasionally work as an extra at a department store. My sister and I both went to college. I studied art and got my degree in art education right before I went to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Do you feel that any of your earlier life was relevant to your later Peace Corps experience?

[User] Well, my parents were people who were involved in volunteering. For example, my mother worked with Girl Scouts, worked with church activities and so on. Like my father did the same. He always said he was a Girl Scout leader, too, because he always helped out. And we did things like camping, which was really good experience for being in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did you first hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I guess when President Kennedy proposed the idea was when I first heard about it. And I thought it was a really neat idea. I lived in a community that was highly Republican, and during the elections I was the only person who volunteered to take the Democratic side during our debates. And I believe that during the elections is when Kennedy proposed the idea of a Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What made you decide to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my parents were people who were involved in volunteering. For example, my mother worked with Girl Scouts, worked with church activities and so on. Like my father did the same. He always said he was a Girl Scout leader, too, because he always helped out. And we did things like camping, which was really good experience for being in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did you first hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I guess when President Kennedy proposed the idea was when I first heard about it. And I thought it was a really neat idea. I lived in a community that was highly Republican, and during the elections I was the only person who volunteered to take the Democratic side during our debates. And I believe that during the elections is when Kennedy proposed the idea of a Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What made you decide to join?

[User] I'm asked that question so often, and I always say, I don't have one really good answer, but I guess I have several answers. I'm sure there was some kind of altruistic motive involved, but also, of course, they're always selfish motives. I wanted to do something good. I wanted to improve the world. I want to do something different. I wanted to travel, but I think maybe a lot of it was just, you know, that rebellious stage in your life where you want to get away from home. And my parents were fairly strict and kind of oppressive at times, and it was a way for me to kind of get out and on my own very quickly after I graduated from college.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific project or a country in mind when you joined?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess when President Kennedy proposed the idea was when I first heard about it. And I thought it was a really neat idea. I lived in a community that was highly Republican, and during the elections I was the only person who volunteered to take the Democratic side during our debates. And I believe that during the elections is when Kennedy proposed the idea of a Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What made you decide to join?

[User] I'm asked that question so often, and I always say, I don't have one really good answer, but I guess I have several answers. I'm sure there was some kind of altruistic motive involved, but also, of course, they're always selfish motives. I wanted to do something good. I wanted to improve the world. I want to do something different. I wanted to travel, but I think maybe a lot of it was just, you know, that rebellious stage in your life where you want to get away from home. And my parents were fairly strict and kind of oppressive at times, and it was a way for me to kind of get out and on my own very quickly after I graduated from college.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific project or a country in mind when you joined?

[User] No, because I remember when they asked me if I had any choice, I chose nothing. I either put down no choice or said I would go anywhere. And at first, actually, I received an acceptance to go to Chile. And so I had never taken Spanish. I had studied Latin and French, so I immediately got a Spanish major to start tutoring me. And we didn't get very far into that before I got the change to go to Brazil. And then, of course, there was no one on campus that knew Portuguese.

[Assistant] So how and when did you apply? Did you actually apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm asked that question so often, and I always say, I don't have one really good answer, but I guess I have several answers. I'm sure there was some kind of altruistic motive involved, but also, of course, they're always selfish motives. I wanted to do something good. I wanted to improve the world. I want to do something different. I wanted to travel, but I think maybe a lot of it was just, you know, that rebellious stage in your life where you want to get away from home. And my parents were fairly strict and kind of oppressive at times, and it was a way for me to kind of get out and on my own very quickly after I graduated from college.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific project or a country in mind when you joined?

[User] No, because I remember when they asked me if I had any choice, I chose nothing. I either put down no choice or said I would go anywhere. And at first, actually, I received an acceptance to go to Chile. And so I had never taken Spanish. I had studied Latin and French, so I immediately got a Spanish major to start tutoring me. And we didn't get very far into that before I got the change to go to Brazil. And then, of course, there was no one on campus that knew Portuguese.

[Assistant] So how and when did you apply? Did you actually apply?

[User] There were recruiters on campus. I think that was during my maybe the early part of my junior year of college because I know I got accepted during my, I think, probably the second semester of my junior year of college.

[Assistant] That you were going to wait a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because I remember when they asked me if I had any choice, I chose nothing. I either put down no choice or said I would go anywhere. And at first, actually, I received an acceptance to go to Chile. And so I had never taken Spanish. I had studied Latin and French, so I immediately got a Spanish major to start tutoring me. And we didn't get very far into that before I got the change to go to Brazil. And then, of course, there was no one on campus that knew Portuguese.

[Assistant] So how and when did you apply? Did you actually apply?

[User] There were recruiters on campus. I think that was during my maybe the early part of my junior year of college because I know I got accepted during my, I think, probably the second semester of my junior year of college.

[Assistant] That you were going to wait a year.

[User] Well, it was. They had a, they sent us to an advanced training program. I believe it was the last advanced training program that they had. And we trained for 12 weeks between my junior and senior year. There was a conference in Chicago over Christmas break, which I didn't attend because I had just had my appendix removed. And then we met the next summer and went for additional training in Brazil.

[Assistant] So you were accepted and you were invited to join the Brazil project when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation on your part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were recruiters on campus. I think that was during my maybe the early part of my junior year of college because I know I got accepted during my, I think, probably the second semester of my junior year of college.

[Assistant] That you were going to wait a year.

[User] Well, it was. They had a, they sent us to an advanced training program. I believe it was the last advanced training program that they had. And we trained for 12 weeks between my junior and senior year. There was a conference in Chicago over Christmas break, which I didn't attend because I had just had my appendix removed. And then we met the next summer and went for additional training in Brazil.

[Assistant] So you were accepted and you were invited to join the Brazil project when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation on your part?

[User] I don't think so. I mean, I think there's always a little bit of, you know, am I going to be able to do this? What's it going to be like? Oh, my goodness, how am I ever going to learn Portuguese, that kind of thing. But I don't think there was much hesitation. There's just that little kind of back of the mind, can I do this?

[Assistant] What was your family's reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was. They had a, they sent us to an advanced training program. I believe it was the last advanced training program that they had. And we trained for 12 weeks between my junior and senior year. There was a conference in Chicago over Christmas break, which I didn't attend because I had just had my appendix removed. And then we met the next summer and went for additional training in Brazil.

[Assistant] So you were accepted and you were invited to join the Brazil project when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation on your part?

[User] I don't think so. I mean, I think there's always a little bit of, you know, am I going to be able to do this? What's it going to be like? Oh, my goodness, how am I ever going to learn Portuguese, that kind of thing. But I don't think there was much hesitation. There's just that little kind of back of the mind, can I do this?

[Assistant] What was your family's reaction?

[User] I think my mother was not real happy. I think she, you know, I think she pictured me in the middle of the Amazon with headhunter Indians or something. My father thought of it as being like a missionary, which is exactly what I didn't want to be. But they seemed to rather, you know, accept it. After I went to the, I think they thought I would go to the training between my junior and senior year and then maybe I would decide not to go, but I did. And they, you know, they had a year and a half to get used to the idea, so they seemed OK with it.

[Assistant] How did you prepare yourself and others for leaving for two full years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I mean, I think there's always a little bit of, you know, am I going to be able to do this? What's it going to be like? Oh, my goodness, how am I ever going to learn Portuguese, that kind of thing. But I don't think there was much hesitation. There's just that little kind of back of the mind, can I do this?

[Assistant] What was your family's reaction?

[User] I think my mother was not real happy. I think she, you know, I think she pictured me in the middle of the Amazon with headhunter Indians or something. My father thought of it as being like a missionary, which is exactly what I didn't want to be. But they seemed to rather, you know, accept it. After I went to the, I think they thought I would go to the training between my junior and senior year and then maybe I would decide not to go, but I did. And they, you know, they had a year and a half to get used to the idea, so they seemed OK with it.

[Assistant] How did you prepare yourself and others for leaving for two full years?

[User] Well, one of the things is that when you go right after you graduate from college, you don't have to do a lot of preparation as far as you don't have to get rid of possessions and have someone take care of a house or take care of pets or whatever. So I basically had my, you know, stored my stuff from college at home, and I know we had lists of clothing and other things that we needed to take that maybe weren't readily available in Brazil. I know I put a little bit of money in an in an account and told my mother that if I ever needed any money, I would send her a check and she could send me some kind of a money order or something. It was more, I feel like I didn't do a lot of preparation more than just going on a long trip.

[Assistant] Where were you trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My training between my junior and senior year of college was at Sacramento State College in California, which was a very nice campus. It was hot. So we trained there. I believe it was 12 weeks and about three weeks of it we spent in in field training. I was stationed with a VISTA worker in Tracy, California. She worked a lot with migrant workers and she put me in a home with a minister. It's a Black family and it was a minister and his wife and their children, and I helped her with various projects. So for those three weeks and then we had an additional training time in Brazil and we were just divided. We went to Rio and then we were divided into three groups. One group went to Goiás, one went to Espírito Santo. My group went to Salvador, Bahia, and we trained for six weeks in Dias d'Ávila, which was a small town. And we were each put with a family. In some places, two people were put with a family and I was put with grandparents, parents and a small boy. And that helped with our Portuguese training while we were there.

[Assistant] What kind of faculty trained you?

[User] In Sacramento, the Portuguese teachers were almost all college students who were Brazilian students studying in the United States, and that was their summer job. And then there were other people who I believe were either faculty at Sacramento or their faculty that were brought in. And they were people who taught us everything from we had a phys ed class and we learned about soccer. We had Brazilian studies, health studies, geography, history of Brazil. A lot of information about customs and expectations.

[Assistant] Did you have any technical training?

[User] No, not really. We were, our group was supposed to be urban community development, and we talked a lot about the felt needs of the people that we were supposed to discover and, you know, do something to meet their needs. It was all very ambiguous. It wasn't very specific. We had some training and group dynamics and how whole groups work. I don't really remember any technical training at all.

[Assistant] How was the selection handled? To choose the volunteers who would go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Sacramento, the Portuguese teachers were almost all college students who were Brazilian students studying in the United States, and that was their summer job. And then there were other people who I believe were either faculty at Sacramento or their faculty that were brought in. And they were people who taught us everything from we had a phys ed class and we learned about soccer. We had Brazilian studies, health studies, geography, history of Brazil. A lot of information about customs and expectations.

[Assistant] Did you have any technical training?

[User] No, not really. We were, our group was supposed to be urban community development, and we talked a lot about the felt needs of the people that we were supposed to discover and, you know, do something to meet their needs. It was all very ambiguous. It wasn't very specific. We had some training and group dynamics and how whole groups work. I don't really remember any technical training at all.

[Assistant] How was the selection handled? To choose the volunteers who would go?

[User] First of all, our group started out with somewhere around 108, 110 or 112. I don't remember people. When we finally went to Brazil, I believe the numbers were down to the 50s and a lot of people selected themselves out over that senior year of college. And I think that's why they didn't do advanced training programs after that much and people got offers for graduate school or jobs that they felt they couldn't pass up.

[Assistant] But the training. I'm not exactly sure what all the criteria was, but there were psychologists, there were trainers who would deselect people in the middle of the training. I believe there were two people that went very early on, and they were two young men from Texas who seem to be have not realized that the civil rights movement had occurred and they were very prejudiced and that just wasn't going to go in Brazil, so those were the first two that were selected out. After that, it seemed like they selected people out because they were not kind of meeting the program's standards. I often wonder why I wasn't because I was not very good at learning the language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But there was an unfortunate incident that happened when we were in training, when we were out in our field training. There were a few of the volunteers that were at some youth center. They took some students for to swim somewhere, and one of the children died. They drowned. And it seemed like everybody that was involved in that incident got selected out. And I don't remember how many people there were maybe three or four of them. And that was a really bad situation. I mean, we all felt really bad about the incident and of course, the aftermath of it.

I think a couple of people were selected out because they suspected that they were gay. And I don't know whether that was because just at that time, that was something that they could do or if it was that they felt that that would be a hindrance to them and working with the Brazilian people at the time. But everyone feared the selection process.

[Assistant] How often did it happen?

[User] It seemed to me that the first one happened, I think, about halfway through and then maybe there were two more times when maybe three quarters of the way through the training and one at the end, but I'm not really sure it might have just been two.

[Assistant] Do you think the training prepared you for useful Peace Corps service?

[User] Yes and no. I don't think it prepared me in a real practical sense, but I think at least I went in with some understanding of the history of pursuing people information about customs a lot. We were told a lot of things that were just absolutely unacceptable in Brazil, which turned out not to be true. Like we were told that women only wore slacks at like resorts and beaches and so on. And that wasn't true, you know? But of course, things change in every culture. The Portuguese training, I think they did their best to help me out, but I was just one of those people that had a really hard time with it until I actually got there and had to do it and had to use the language. And I'm sure that happened with a lot of people, but I never had a facility for learning languages.

[Assistant] And describe the day that you arrived in Brazil.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I tried as much as possible not to because I just had such a hard time with it. Any time I could get away with not speaking Portuguese, at least on the first days, I would. If I could find someone that would speak English to me, that would be fine. And of course, we tried but you know, it's frustrating when you try and you're not understood and someone answers you and you're clueless as to what they said back.

[Assistant] There were Peace Corps staff in the country?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] What were they like?

[User] You know what, I don't really remember much about people in in Rio because we were there for such a short period of time. I'm sure that the country director was there and I know we met him. I have photographs, actually, that a friend sent me of some of us at a party, and it was before our groups were all split up. So I know it was in Rio. And I, I kind of think it might have been in the American ambassador's home. He had a party for us, but it may have been the Peace Corps director. I really don't remember, I remember very little about the staff in Rio. I mean, they were helpful and, you know, told us, you know where to let our parents know to send mail and you know, that kind of thing and that if they got anything, they would forward it to our new addresses. But other than that, I don't remember much.

[Assistant] Did you undergo any further training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] What were they like?

[User] You know what, I don't really remember much about people in in Rio because we were there for such a short period of time. I'm sure that the country director was there and I know we met him. I have photographs, actually, that a friend sent me of some of us at a party, and it was before our groups were all split up. So I know it was in Rio. And I, I kind of think it might have been in the American ambassador's home. He had a party for us, but it may have been the Peace Corps director. I really don't remember, I remember very little about the staff in Rio. I mean, they were helpful and, you know, told us, you know where to let our parents know to send mail and you know, that kind of thing and that if they got anything, they would forward it to our new addresses. But other than that, I don't remember much.

[Assistant] Did you undergo any further training?

[User] Yeah, we each went, we went to our respective states. Now I went with a group that was in the state of Bahia, but I ended up actually being the only person from my group to be sent to a state north of there in Sergipe. But we were trained in a small town outside of Salvador for an additional six weeks.

[Assistant] Well, what did you learn during those six weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know what, I don't really remember much about people in in Rio because we were there for such a short period of time. I'm sure that the country director was there and I know we met him. I have photographs, actually, that a friend sent me of some of us at a party, and it was before our groups were all split up. So I know it was in Rio. And I, I kind of think it might have been in the American ambassador's home. He had a party for us, but it may have been the Peace Corps director. I really don't remember, I remember very little about the staff in Rio. I mean, they were helpful and, you know, told us, you know where to let our parents know to send mail and you know, that kind of thing and that if they got anything, they would forward it to our new addresses. But other than that, I don't remember much.

[Assistant] Did you undergo any further training?

[User] Yeah, we each went, we went to our respective states. Now I went with a group that was in the state of Bahia, but I ended up actually being the only person from my group to be sent to a state north of there in Sergipe. But we were trained in a small town outside of Salvador for an additional six weeks.

[Assistant] Well, what did you learn during those six weeks?

[User] Well, we stayed with family so that we were trying to improve our Portuguese. And as far as I remember, most of the time it was Portuguese studies and we had, well, we they talked a lot about the customs and I think there we maybe had a little more practical information about maybe just buying food. And, you know, just the day to day living how to get along, depending on where we were going to be. Now, as I said, my most of my group was urban community development, and a lot of the people were going to be stationed in Salvador, Bahia, which was a fairly large city, but a lot of them ended up being sent to rural areas as well as myself.

[Assistant] So you ended up being a teacher. Can you describe that project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was on my own.

[Assistant] So you felt comfortable traveling in all of these countries on your own?

[User] Yeah. And now I hear about so much violence in Brazil. But we were pretty much told that it, I mean, we weren't supposed to be stupid and go out alone at midnight or whatever, but that women alone were pretty safe. That rape was almost unheard of in Brazil. And just to be a little careful with cameras and flaunting your money and try to dress like the natives and, you know, whatever, and the fact that we could speak Portuguese was good because then we weren't totally naive or we didn't sound totally naive as somebody that could speak very well, like with taxi drivers or whatever. But I never felt in danger anywhere in Brazil, except for the snakes.

[Assistant] What were your future plans when you came home?

[User] Well, you know what? Even though I mean, I taught for a couple of years in Brazil, I didn't think that I was that good of a teacher. I thought, I mean, I was, I don't know, of course, that you're trying to teach in a foreign language and whatever and all these other things going on. So I came home and decided I was going to get some other kind of job, but I ended up going to teaching anyway, and I taught for a total of 32 years. And I did like it. I did enjoy it. And I think a lot of it was just that I was kind of immature and didn't know what I was doing. But it was kind of a it was a good proving ground.

[Assistant] Did you teach English or art?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And now I hear about so much violence in Brazil. But we were pretty much told that it, I mean, we weren't supposed to be stupid and go out alone at midnight or whatever, but that women alone were pretty safe. That rape was almost unheard of in Brazil. And just to be a little careful with cameras and flaunting your money and try to dress like the natives and, you know, whatever, and the fact that we could speak Portuguese was good because then we weren't totally naive or we didn't sound totally naive as somebody that could speak very well, like with taxi drivers or whatever. But I never felt in danger anywhere in Brazil, except for the snakes.

[Assistant] What were your future plans when you came home?

[User] Well, you know what? Even though I mean, I taught for a couple of years in Brazil, I didn't think that I was that good of a teacher. I thought, I mean, I was, I don't know, of course, that you're trying to teach in a foreign language and whatever and all these other things going on. So I came home and decided I was going to get some other kind of job, but I ended up going to teaching anyway, and I taught for a total of 32 years. And I did like it. I did enjoy it. And I think a lot of it was just that I was kind of immature and didn't know what I was doing. But it was kind of a it was a good proving ground.

[Assistant] Did you teach English or art?

[User] No, I taught art. Once I got home.

[Assistant] How would you evaluate your service? According to the three Peace Corps goals. I'll remind you that the first goal was to provide technical assistance where requested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know what? Even though I mean, I taught for a couple of years in Brazil, I didn't think that I was that good of a teacher. I thought, I mean, I was, I don't know, of course, that you're trying to teach in a foreign language and whatever and all these other things going on. So I came home and decided I was going to get some other kind of job, but I ended up going to teaching anyway, and I taught for a total of 32 years. And I did like it. I did enjoy it. And I think a lot of it was just that I was kind of immature and didn't know what I was doing. But it was kind of a it was a good proving ground.

[Assistant] Did you teach English or art?

[User] No, I taught art. Once I got home.

[Assistant] How would you evaluate your service? According to the three Peace Corps goals. I'll remind you that the first goal was to provide technical assistance where requested.

[User] Well, where I don't know if it works the same way in every country, but we had to have been invited by the local government, and I know Bruni requested an English teacher or a teacher of any kind and that had to be approved by the mayor of the town. And I mean, as far as technical assistance I did, you know, I taught English, I taught a lot of other things as well. I helped it out with the health classes and with the doctors school and so on. So I think I did a good job in that. I think that that was productive.

[Assistant] How would you evaluate the second goal to help promote better understanding of Americans by other peoples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do miss Brazil, I miss a lot of that.

[Assistant] Do you like to go back?

[User] I would love to go back, but I don't want to go back for a week, you know, like, I want to go back, maybe like for two months or something and spend some time and go back and visit the town where I worked.

[Assistant] Think there'll be a lot of differences?

[User] Oh, I'm sure there will be. I hope there will be.

[Assistant] What would you say is the main effect of Peace Corps service on your life, both immediately after your service and later on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would love to go back, but I don't want to go back for a week, you know, like, I want to go back, maybe like for two months or something and spend some time and go back and visit the town where I worked.

[Assistant] Think there'll be a lot of differences?

[User] Oh, I'm sure there will be. I hope there will be.

[Assistant] What would you say is the main effect of Peace Corps service on your life, both immediately after your service and later on?

[User] Definitely my appreciation of my own life from my own country and my opportunities, especially the opportunities that I have. I often say that I don't complain about having to pay taxes because even though you know it takes a lot of money away from me, I think I get a lot of a lot for it, whether they, whether it be a highway or health services or whatever we get for that support of the arts, whatever. In Brazil, the tax system was just crazy and the federal highway that went through my town was a mud road. And, you know, so I think if I think for one thing, it made me see my own country from a more global point of view. It made me see my country from the perspective of someone else and from, I compare it to a lover that you don't see their flaws when you're in the relationship and six months on the road, you think, what was I doing? Why did I ever like that guy? And I feel like I felt the same way about my own country in a way. That while you're there, it's all rah rah America. Everything is wonderful. And then you go someplace else and you see that we do have flaws, but at exactly the same time you see that how lucky you are to have been born where you were and that you grew up there and that you have all the opportunities and privileges that you have as an American citizen that other people don't have.

[Assistant] Carol, I thank you very much for participating in the Peace Corps archival project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Eugene Leonard Bialek.

[Assistant] What is your affiliation with the Archives?

[User] I’m a volunteer staff aide in the Navy Maritime Unit.

[Assistant] What exactly is a staff aide?

[User] It’s a little bit of everything. It’s mainly writing finding aids for files that the archivist I work with feels are used quite a bit. It helps locate something in a box very rapidly, without having to look through a box. It has a list of the contents. It’s labor-intensive, and it’s not the type of thing an archivist would do. It’s the type of thing a volunteer would do.

[Assistant] Okay. So, before you started working with the Archives as a staff aide, what kind of work did you do? Was it a similar line of work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m a volunteer staff aide in the Navy Maritime Unit.

[Assistant] What exactly is a staff aide?

[User] It’s a little bit of everything. It’s mainly writing finding aids for files that the archivist I work with feels are used quite a bit. It helps locate something in a box very rapidly, without having to look through a box. It has a list of the contents. It’s labor-intensive, and it’s not the type of thing an archivist would do. It’s the type of thing a volunteer would do.

[Assistant] Okay. So, before you started working with the Archives as a staff aide, what kind of work did you do? Was it a similar line of work?

[User] I was an oceanographer for the Navel Oceanographic Office at the Washington Navy Yard for about 25 years. I retired when the office moved to Mississippi. I went to work in private industry for a Navy contractor. I was a systems analyst for the Mark 46 Torpedo.

[Assistant] That doesn’t sound similar to what you’re doing now. So, why did you start volunteering at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that he picks what I would call the most popular files, the files that are most in demand. For some reason there was a lot of demand for information from the JAG files. I would call the most popular files the most used, the most demanded, files he does. I don’t think anyone orders him to do it. He’s the type of person who has his finger on the operation of Navy Maritime. He serves in the reference room down here almost half a day, so he knows what people ask for. And that’s what he selects for me to do.

[Assistant] When you say most in demand, it’s from the public coming in to do research, not the Navy or Coast Guard or some other branch of the U.S. Government?

[User] That’s mainly true in so far as getting weather data from the Aleutians demanded by a Weather Bureau. In so far as the female lighthouse keepers, that was a request from the Coast Guard. So it all depends. You can’t say it’s the most in-demand group of files. There’re also special projects, Coast Guard, the Weather Bureau, NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration].

[Assistant] So do you work on Mark’s special projects or just Mark’s standard finding aids?

[User] I’d say finding aids. These special projects are infrequent.

[Assistant] So, how do these finding aids help the researchers who come in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s mainly true in so far as getting weather data from the Aleutians demanded by a Weather Bureau. In so far as the female lighthouse keepers, that was a request from the Coast Guard. So it all depends. You can’t say it’s the most in-demand group of files. There’re also special projects, Coast Guard, the Weather Bureau, NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration].

[Assistant] So do you work on Mark’s special projects or just Mark’s standard finding aids?

[User] I’d say finding aids. These special projects are infrequent.

[Assistant] So, how do these finding aids help the researchers who come in?

[User] They’re on a spreadsheet, or they’re written out by the box number. Mark makes copies of those things. He hands them out to the archivist in the Navy Maritime Unit, and they use it. My Normandy study, Operation Neptune, that I did when I first came here, is still being used at our Archives II. I was amazed, after all these years, they’re still using that.

[Assistant] What is the file you brought?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d say finding aids. These special projects are infrequent.

[Assistant] So, how do these finding aids help the researchers who come in?

[User] They’re on a spreadsheet, or they’re written out by the box number. Mark makes copies of those things. He hands them out to the archivist in the Navy Maritime Unit, and they use it. My Normandy study, Operation Neptune, that I did when I first came here, is still being used at our Archives II. I was amazed, after all these years, they’re still using that.

[Assistant] What is the file you brought?

[User] I just had an article published on one of the Coast Guard cutters named after one of the women, Kathleen Moore. I just submitted another article, about the grounding of an oil tanker off Cherbourg, France. Really interesting circumstances. I just submitted this one. It’s on the Battleship Maine, not the Maine, but Maine Two. Ran aground at the entrance to the Mississippi in South Pass. The mouth of the Mississippi has the three passes, one going straight down, one on the left, and one on the right. The ship ran aground, and the captain blamed the United States Coast Pilot, which is a publication telling navigators of dangers, of where to go or not go, like there’s a shallow ledge here, you know to avoid it, stay on the other side of the channel. Things like that. So, there was a little set-to between the captain and what he said was an error in the Coast Pilot. It sounds as if the captain was wrong, and the United States Coast Pilot was correct. So, I’m going to try to write that up.

[Assistant] You’re writing on your own, or are you doing it for the Archives?