[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there almost seven years until I was also extended by the, to go beyond five years, you have to be extended by the Peace Corps director. And so that happened a couple of times. And they were very pleased with the work I was doing and everything and wanted the continuity. And so that was really good.

[Assistant] You’ve had two lives. One is a volunteer and one of the staff. Do you think differently about Peace Corps having been both?

[User] Well, you know, Peace Corps is a bureaucracy. Hearing about some of the things. It was after I left the Peace Corps that we heard about of, you know, a volunteer who was killed in Benin. And it was something that the Peace Corps director in Benin had inadvertently. This volunteer, not someone that I knew, someone who had uncovered something at her at her high school. And the teacher that was sexually harassing students, female students, and so she complained about it to the Peace Corps director in country. And unfortunately, her identity became known to someone else working in the Peace Corps office who had some kind of link, I don't think was a relative, but had some kind of link to the teacher back in the school. And her name was not kept confidential basically, it was something that, and was killed.

[Assistant] By the Peace Corps?

[User] No, by the teacher. Yeah. The Peace Corps volunteer was killed by the teacher basically. So you had things like this that I didn't hear anything about.

[Assistant] So this was because the staff person told the teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, Peace Corps is a bureaucracy. Hearing about some of the things. It was after I left the Peace Corps that we heard about of, you know, a volunteer who was killed in Benin. And it was something that the Peace Corps director in Benin had inadvertently. This volunteer, not someone that I knew, someone who had uncovered something at her at her high school. And the teacher that was sexually harassing students, female students, and so she complained about it to the Peace Corps director in country. And unfortunately, her identity became known to someone else working in the Peace Corps office who had some kind of link, I don't think was a relative, but had some kind of link to the teacher back in the school. And her name was not kept confidential basically, it was something that, and was killed.

[Assistant] By the Peace Corps?

[User] No, by the teacher. Yeah. The Peace Corps volunteer was killed by the teacher basically. So you had things like this that I didn't hear anything about.

[Assistant] So this was because the staff person told the teacher?

[User] Yeah, I think that that was some kind of a written record or something. And perhaps the Peace Corps staffer had seen the volunteer’s name. And it had not been kept confidential. And it was like, oh, this was very bad. I understand there have been sexual assaults also over there that you didn't learn about these things until after, in the time that I was not on the staff, but it was the kind of thing that. Someone interviewed me once when I was working at NIH, interviewed me about my Peace Corps experience and they asked about, you know, had you received any training in kind of sexual assaults and things like this. And there had been nothing, nothing that I remembered and stuff. So it when I was working there, I wasn't really hearing about stuff, you know, but it was certainly things going on that I don't think started after I left in February of 1997, was when I started working at the National Cancer Institute.

[Assistant] So you left in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, by the teacher. Yeah. The Peace Corps volunteer was killed by the teacher basically. So you had things like this that I didn't hear anything about.

[Assistant] So this was because the staff person told the teacher?

[User] Yeah, I think that that was some kind of a written record or something. And perhaps the Peace Corps staffer had seen the volunteer’s name. And it had not been kept confidential. And it was like, oh, this was very bad. I understand there have been sexual assaults also over there that you didn't learn about these things until after, in the time that I was not on the staff, but it was the kind of thing that. Someone interviewed me once when I was working at NIH, interviewed me about my Peace Corps experience and they asked about, you know, had you received any training in kind of sexual assaults and things like this. And there had been nothing, nothing that I remembered and stuff. So it when I was working there, I wasn't really hearing about stuff, you know, but it was certainly things going on that I don't think started after I left in February of 1997, was when I started working at the National Cancer Institute.

[Assistant] So you left in?

[User] So I left in February of ‘97.

[Assistant] So this incident was after you had left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think that that was some kind of a written record or something. And perhaps the Peace Corps staffer had seen the volunteer’s name. And it had not been kept confidential. And it was like, oh, this was very bad. I understand there have been sexual assaults also over there that you didn't learn about these things until after, in the time that I was not on the staff, but it was the kind of thing that. Someone interviewed me once when I was working at NIH, interviewed me about my Peace Corps experience and they asked about, you know, had you received any training in kind of sexual assaults and things like this. And there had been nothing, nothing that I remembered and stuff. So it when I was working there, I wasn't really hearing about stuff, you know, but it was certainly things going on that I don't think started after I left in February of 1997, was when I started working at the National Cancer Institute.

[Assistant] So you left in?

[User] So I left in February of ‘97.

[Assistant] So this incident was after you had left?

[User] Yeah, it was after I had left.

[Assistant] So did you encounter any of those kinds of problems when you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I left in February of ‘97.

[Assistant] So this incident was after you had left?

[User] Yeah, it was after I had left.

[Assistant] So did you encounter any of those kinds of problems when you were?

[User] No, no, no. But, uh, you know, I know training has gotten, it's gotten better, but it was something that I’ve always stayed kind of interested in, you know, in what was going on Peace Corps and being familiar with the organization and how it was organized and everything. It was something that I think there were changes that were made basically in terms of training of staff as well as for volunteers since then, but yeah. So it was the thing I didn't have a problem with. You know, the local staff were wonderful. And this was really it was a pleasure working with them. There were some people and as I say on the Peace Corps staff. When I first arrived, I was doing staffing work for the volunteer recruitment and selection, the Peace Corps staff basically, and I and the current deputy director of their personnel had issues with them. And so was a lot of record keeping. It was like, so what did they give you and what was the condition of the information that they gave you and what did you have to send back to them? And all of this that was kind of it was real hostility, you know, between the woman I was working for in personnel and the staff in volunteer recruitment and selection, it was kind of uncomfortable. But fortunately, things seemed to kind of moved along and and things got better over time. One of the interesting things was that it was unfortunately, my father passed away in 1990 when I was working in the Peace Corps and a lot of the volunteer recruitment and selection staff were very kind of, you know, when I was when I came back and so things and because I had realized at that point that some of the staff that I was working with in personnel that there were some issues and so tried to forge my own way. Yeah, it's going my own way, basically.

[Assistant] When you said there were issues, what kind of issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a tremendous amount of you know, it's funny. People often aren't really interested in what's going on in, you know, an obscure country. I mean, we don't have any real strategic interests over there. I have talked to new incoming volunteers or people that are going over to Benin for training. But, uh, it's something that it's not. Yeah, I don't see a tremendous amount of impact. My group has also contributed to Ed partnership projects that Peace Corps has over there. You know, so that that helps. It's something that I don't see a lot of interest in, although someone that I worked with, an African- American woman, has recently discovered that some of her ancestors came from Benin and Togo. And so she's very interested. I had shown my slides of where I was working and she was very interested in learning more about this. So I'll be happy to do that. So that's kind of neat. I’m excited about that. I have a, no, unfortunately, I'm not sure that, you know, the impact is really the end in this. But I feel good about, you know, that what I did. That this was something that I had 35 years in government service, including Peace Corps time. And that feels good to have done that. Anyway.

[Assistant] So I think that's probably a good way to end.

[User] Yes, I think so.

[Assistant] Great, thank you.

[User] Thank you, Evelyn. And it's been really interesting talking with you. Do you know if anyone else from Benin who has?

[Assistant] Who has been interviewed? We’ll talk about that off line, OK?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Is that what they referred to you guys as?

[User] We had our own patches. I had one here somewhere. We had our own patch we put on our flight suits. They called us the Chase Air Force or the Chase something or other. Kathy got to fly with us a little bit, I think.

[Assistant] Did she?

[User] Sometimes our backseaters couldn’t make it, so we’d fill it in with some of my classmates to give them experience of what it looked like to fly that rendezvous and what it would look like coming out of space.\n\n Kathy and I flew a lot together. Kathy and Sally and I flew a lot together during our training for the STS-41G flight. I don’t know how many hours, but I know Sally and I flew long enough to where I really felt like she could probably fly that T-38 herself.

[Assistant] Were you still flying chase flights for the rest of the orbital test flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had our own patches. I had one here somewhere. We had our own patch we put on our flight suits. They called us the Chase Air Force or the Chase something or other. Kathy got to fly with us a little bit, I think.

[Assistant] Did she?

[User] Sometimes our backseaters couldn’t make it, so we’d fill it in with some of my classmates to give them experience of what it looked like to fly that rendezvous and what it would look like coming out of space.\n\n Kathy and I flew a lot together. Kathy and Sally and I flew a lot together during our training for the STS-41G flight. I don’t know how many hours, but I know Sally and I flew long enough to where I really felt like she could probably fly that T-38 herself.

[Assistant] Were you still flying chase flights for the rest of the orbital test flights?

[User] No, I just did it the first flight. After the first flight, I got assigned to the Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory, SAIL we called it, for a couple of years. You know about SAIL probably, where all the components are set up in the same area in the same lineup and everything. We were flying, and I flew a lot of the ascents and entries out of the cockpit there at the Shuttle lab. Then I was assigned to be a CapCom on flights 5, 6, and 7, capsule communicator, and then I got assigned to my mission in August of ’83, the same week that [Hurricane] Alicia came through the Houston area and just about decimated things there.

[Assistant] Tell us about hearing about that assignment. How did you find out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s really [demonstrates]. I’ve gotten four or five of those, but, you know, there’s probably more that I’ve touched some way or another, but those are really special things and that makes it all worthwhile.

[Assistant] What was it like being a pilot and helping to land the Space Shuttle as you were coming back?

[User] It’s easy. I’m not trying to diminish the entry and the landing, but if you can fly airplanes on and off of aircraft carriers and do all the things that we do and you follow the procedures, flying the Space Shuttle is pretty easy after a few thousand hours of practice in it and simulators and the Shuttle training airplanes. Golly, it was nice to be back on Earth and have a perfect landing and rollout on time and everybody’s happy. We did all of our mission objectives. But flying the Space Shuttle is probably one of the easier airplanes I’ve ever flown, performs well.\n\n The biggest difference between flying a Shuttle and flying other airplanes obviously is that our control stick only moves about an inch and a half. So I’m flying this big lumbering 200,000-pound DC-9-size airplane just thinking left or thinking right. If you feel your hand moving a whole lot, then you’re probably over-controlling. One of the things you learn is just be as smooth as you possibly can. That’s the reason, I guess, the Shuttle has lasted and did so well is because we really baby them. We take care of them. We fly a nice soft, gentle entry profile and try to be as soft as you can for the touchdowns. You know you’ve made a good landing when the guys downstairs say, “Are we here yet? Are we landed? Are we on the ground?”

[Assistant] That must have been a very good landing.

[User] Yes. most of them are. I think Eileen [M.] Collins maybe made one of the best ones. It was just about as perfect as you could get.

[Assistant] Tell us about the media interest in this flight. Sally had just flown and she had been assigned to this flight, and then Kathy, of course, was going to fly. Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can shut it off. [Tape recorder turned off.] So here's the picture that I took with this cheap little camera, Polaroid camera, as a matter of fact, and there's my dad and there's my son and there's my mother and there's Alan Shepard. Look at the look of adoration in her eyes.

[Assistant] She's having the best time.

[User] Absolutely loved this guy, you know. And here's her soldier boy from World War I …, standing at attention, and her grandson just getting his picture taken. But her feeling about him was immense.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Well, anyway, after he landed on the moon in Apollo 14, he sent us a thing that was half the size of that, with a big "deal" on it, and the Canadian flag, which changed from that Union Jack to the maple leaf in 1965. So by this time it was the maple leaf thing. So he sent this piece of paper with this flag glued to it. "This flag was taken to the moon and brought back on Apollo 14 by Alan Shepard and crew," and all this, and gave it to my mother. [Actually] he gave it to me, and I gave it to my mother. I had a [conference where I displayed a lot of artifacts] one time that was a little bit like this, where I [had] stuff all spread out, and somebody stole it.

[Assistant] Oh, that's unbelievable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely loved this guy, you know. And here's her soldier boy from World War I …, standing at attention, and her grandson just getting his picture taken. But her feeling about him was immense.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Well, anyway, after he landed on the moon in Apollo 14, he sent us a thing that was half the size of that, with a big "deal" on it, and the Canadian flag, which changed from that Union Jack to the maple leaf in 1965. So by this time it was the maple leaf thing. So he sent this piece of paper with this flag glued to it. "This flag was taken to the moon and brought back on Apollo 14 by Alan Shepard and crew," and all this, and gave it to my mother. [Actually] he gave it to me, and I gave it to my mother. I had a [conference where I displayed a lot of artifacts] one time that was a little bit like this, where I [had] stuff all spread out, and somebody stole it.

[Assistant] Oh, that's unbelievable.

[User] So I guess people would view that as being a pretty valuable thing.

[Assistant] I can't believe someone would do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't actually personally have a lot to do with Dick, but I did know him at AVRO and during the Apollo Program. He was off working the computers on the Gemini Program that I really wasn't involved with. He was sort of the world's leading expert in a lot of the features of digital computers and initiation of the use of a digital computer. He had an awful lot to do with that, a very responsible guy and worked very closely with Jim Chamberlin on that subject.\n\n Chuck Mathews. Did we mention him before? Did you say you had interviewed him?

[Assistant] We have interviewed him, yes.

[User] Okay. I gave you a note about, if you're talking with him again, tell him my kids were asking about his kids.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] Tell him my kids are all fine and they've all got kids except Ross. He doesn't have any kids, but he loves his nieces and nephews.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I guess that's about it. I don't know if you want to reserve coming back here tomorrow or—

[Assistant] I think probably I should take this back to Houston, get it all transcribed, let you review it.

[User] Are you actually going to get it typed?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Oh. That would be good.

[Assistant] And I think we've pretty much covered it. We've covered a great deal of information, and I'm honored that you shared so much with me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course they’re experiencing that now again, not so much on the parts that we tested.

[Assistant] We talked about the OGSE [Optical Ground Support Equipment] tests and the thermal test. We didn’t talk about your role in the actual cryo vacuum test. Do you want to talk about that?

[User] Sure. For the cryo vacuum test, leading up to it—I had been the project manager before then, and I was the project manager for the overall JSC JWST operation. We did have dedicated test directors who helped write the procedures for the facility operations and worked with the program on their profiles and what they wanted to do.\n\n Of course the program had their own test team because they actually had individual large procedures for each of the science instruments, each of the different parts of the optics that they wanted to control and test, and then for all the GSE [ground support equipment] that would be supporting it and all the analysis that they would be doing. So they had a lot of huge procedures that worked off a master procedure, and our procedure at Johnson tied in with their master procedure.\n\n Really it was managing and leading the group. Of course we had the team here at Johnson that was actually executing everything, and I was interfacing with the program management on cost, budget, schedule-type things. Then of course any technical problems they had, really tried to understand it and see if we could provide the solution, if it was something related to using facility-type resources. Does that answer the question?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I did take roles during the test of actually sitting shifts either as a test director, or sometimes rarely as a cryogenic engineer, but I did that at times just for coverage. It ran for 100-some days, and we had to fill in three shifts a day. The cryo guys had to fill in for about 130 days. It was a long time that they were on-call and operating the facility.

[Assistant] You want to talk about those two different roles and the difference between them, and what you would be monitoring and doing during those shifts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's not much left actually. There's dinner tonight. I've seen everybody, I think, and said most everything. I saw four of my old secretaries, and I recognized all four of them. One of them has stayed very slender, but the other two were considerably more obese than they used to be. It was fun seeing them.

[Assistant] Well, that's good. They recognized you too, I bet.

[User] Oh, yes. I'm 94 years old. So what you see is what you get.

[Assistant] I think that's impressive by itself. Well, it was quite a while ago when you first started at NACA. How did your interest in aeronautics start?

[User] I guess with the sight of [my] first biplane. It was in 1919, and it landed on a horse-racing track, at Chatham, New York. They pulled it off the track, and it was sitting there on the grass, and wind was blowing, and the wings were moving. It looked like it was ready to go. Ever since then I was hooked.

[Assistant] That's when you were about six years old. How did you learn more about airplane development as you grew older?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was '78—that was from '28—that was 50 years after my first [flights]. It got to be a little too much for me. You had to carry the thing. The thing weighed 80 pounds, and you had all your gear to carry. Slogging up through the sand was a real effort. I sold it in '83.

[Assistant] I'm glad you had some good landings with it.

[User] Oh, the landings were always easy for me, because in my early flights—they were fairly short—I was always landing. You get up about 20 feet, and then I would let the rope go and glide down. I would practice turns. My brother was two years younger. He wasn't interested in flying, but he was interested in driving the tow car. He could do that legally out on the hayfield.

[Assistant] Sounded like a good partnership.

[User] Except he never contributed anything to the flight part of it. In the end we had an accident that I always felt was partly his fault. But it really wasn't. We had a slight crosswind, and the glider was just about ready to take off. It would bounce up and come down. With a crosswind you'd come down with a slight drift. It came down with a pretty good drift, and it jerked me sideways so that I fell out of my seat. My safety belt was only a converted skate strap. The strap broke, and I fell out. He kept on going with the car. I figured he should have seen that and stopped. But anyway, he kept going. The glider went up [without me] to about 75 feet, I guess. It looked way up there. Finally he had to stop the car at the end of the field, and it fell off and stalled, and came down on one wing. It just telescoped, it was a complete wreck.

[Assistant] What were your parents thinking about your thoughts about flying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, the landings were always easy for me, because in my early flights—they were fairly short—I was always landing. You get up about 20 feet, and then I would let the rope go and glide down. I would practice turns. My brother was two years younger. He wasn't interested in flying, but he was interested in driving the tow car. He could do that legally out on the hayfield.

[Assistant] Sounded like a good partnership.

[User] Except he never contributed anything to the flight part of it. In the end we had an accident that I always felt was partly his fault. But it really wasn't. We had a slight crosswind, and the glider was just about ready to take off. It would bounce up and come down. With a crosswind you'd come down with a slight drift. It came down with a pretty good drift, and it jerked me sideways so that I fell out of my seat. My safety belt was only a converted skate strap. The strap broke, and I fell out. He kept on going with the car. I figured he should have seen that and stopped. But anyway, he kept going. The glider went up [without me] to about 75 feet, I guess. It looked way up there. Finally he had to stop the car at the end of the field, and it fell off and stalled, and came down on one wing. It just telescoped, it was a complete wreck.

[Assistant] What were your parents thinking about your thoughts about flying?

[User] My father helped me right in the beginning. Most of the [later] flying I did was during workdays [while he was at work]. My grandmother was visiting one day that we had a good fly, and she took some pictures. Those are the only pictures I have of the glider or the flights.

[Assistant] That's pretty exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Except he never contributed anything to the flight part of it. In the end we had an accident that I always felt was partly his fault. But it really wasn't. We had a slight crosswind, and the glider was just about ready to take off. It would bounce up and come down. With a crosswind you'd come down with a slight drift. It came down with a pretty good drift, and it jerked me sideways so that I fell out of my seat. My safety belt was only a converted skate strap. The strap broke, and I fell out. He kept on going with the car. I figured he should have seen that and stopped. But anyway, he kept going. The glider went up [without me] to about 75 feet, I guess. It looked way up there. Finally he had to stop the car at the end of the field, and it fell off and stalled, and came down on one wing. It just telescoped, it was a complete wreck.

[Assistant] What were your parents thinking about your thoughts about flying?

[User] My father helped me right in the beginning. Most of the [later] flying I did was during workdays [while he was at work]. My grandmother was visiting one day that we had a good fly, and she took some pictures. Those are the only pictures I have of the glider or the flights.

[Assistant] That's pretty exciting.

[User] Yes. My father was very tolerant of everything I wanted to do. I used to use his watch to time my model airplane flights, and I lost it. One flight went fairly far down the flats, and in chasing after it, I lost his watch, and was never able to find it. But he accepted that without getting too mad about it.

[Assistant] It was a pretty good move from New York to Virginia when you moved to Langley. Had you been down to this part before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My father helped me right in the beginning. Most of the [later] flying I did was during workdays [while he was at work]. My grandmother was visiting one day that we had a good fly, and she took some pictures. Those are the only pictures I have of the glider or the flights.

[Assistant] That's pretty exciting.

[User] Yes. My father was very tolerant of everything I wanted to do. I used to use his watch to time my model airplane flights, and I lost it. One flight went fairly far down the flats, and in chasing after it, I lost his watch, and was never able to find it. But he accepted that without getting too mad about it.

[Assistant] It was a pretty good move from New York to Virginia when you moved to Langley. Had you been down to this part before?

[User] No, no. I went down on the train and boat. The streetcar turned around at the Chamberlin Hotel at Old Point. I asked the driver if he would let me off at the Langley Hotel. There was one hotel in [Hampton]. There were no motels. It was an old broken-down thing. It was terrible. I was depressed. But the next morning I took another streetcar out to Langley [Field] and checked in, and I mentioned that in the book. [The High-Speed Frontier: Case Histories of Four NACA Programs, 1920-1950]

[Assistant] I remember you mentioned that, and started to work on the eight-foot-high tunnel, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. My father was very tolerant of everything I wanted to do. I used to use his watch to time my model airplane flights, and I lost it. One flight went fairly far down the flats, and in chasing after it, I lost his watch, and was never able to find it. But he accepted that without getting too mad about it.

[Assistant] It was a pretty good move from New York to Virginia when you moved to Langley. Had you been down to this part before?

[User] No, no. I went down on the train and boat. The streetcar turned around at the Chamberlin Hotel at Old Point. I asked the driver if he would let me off at the Langley Hotel. There was one hotel in [Hampton]. There were no motels. It was an old broken-down thing. It was terrible. I was depressed. But the next morning I took another streetcar out to Langley [Field] and checked in, and I mentioned that in the book. [The High-Speed Frontier: Case Histories of Four NACA Programs, 1920-1950]

[Assistant] I remember you mentioned that, and started to work on the eight-foot-high tunnel, right?

[User] I had written my thesis on a towing basin in New York University. I was interested in flying boats and the aerodynamics and aquadynamics of hulls. Langley had a beautiful towing basin. It was almost [half] a mile long. In New York University our basin was only—I think it was 75 feet long. So you had to do everything [very quickly]. You had to get the carriage up to high speed and take your data and then slow it down. It was almost impossible. It was too short. So I looked forward to working in the towing basin, which was managed by Starr Truscott. He's one of the old Langley pioneers. But Mr. [Elton W.] Miller put me in the high-speed tunnel, which was the best thing that ever happened.

[Assistant] Could you spend a few minutes and talk to us about that tunnel, working in that tunnel, and then how the experiences that you got from those days moved you on to the next ones?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was a lot of competition between Langley and Ames. Not so much with Lewis [NACA Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory, currently Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], because they were on the engines. But we had helpful competition. They would try to outdo us. The conferences were the showdowns where we were all sitting there together, and we could criticize each other.

[Assistant] Were those held annually, or were they more often than once a year?

[User] No, they were at least once a year. More often twice a year, I think.

[Assistant] Were they held at different locations?

[User] Yes. First Langley and then Ames.

[Assistant] So you got an opportunity to travel out to the west coast.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they were at least once a year. More often twice a year, I think.

[Assistant] Were they held at different locations?

[User] Yes. First Langley and then Ames.

[Assistant] So you got an opportunity to travel out to the west coast.

[User] Yes. The first time I went out there was 1948. Then after that I went quite frequently. I went in '49, and after that it was fairly frequent.

[Assistant] Did you find their facilities to be like Langley's?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, there was a huge increase. Basically what we did was take everybody. Then on the job you would find some of them that were so miserable that you had to get rid of them. But we took everybody and then filtered out the impossible cases. We had one guy from Louisiana. Walt [Walter C.] Williams' school [Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana]. All he wanted to do was operate the boat that plied between Langley and Wallops. He applied. He said, "I would like to captain this boat." He was a junior engineer.\n\n Well, probably you didn't want to know this, but Walt Williams did not make a good impression when he first came in. He was in the Flight Division. They debated whether or not they were going to keep him. But they finally decided to keep him, and he began to show some talents. Floyd [L.] Thompson was his boss. They finally decided to keep him. But I remember it was discussed in one of the [promotion] committees. Shows how wrong you can be.

[Assistant] He was out at the Flight Research Center in California. Did you have an opportunity to go to the other Centers?

[User] Yes, if you needed to.

[Assistant] But as far as working? Or you preferred to stay at Langley?

[User] I used to go out to Ames every now and then.

[Assistant] At one point you had an opportunity to represent the Center at a meeting where the X-1 was first being discussed. Can you share with us about that meeting and your impressions of what you were learning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, if you needed to.

[Assistant] But as far as working? Or you preferred to stay at Langley?

[User] I used to go out to Ames every now and then.

[Assistant] At one point you had an opportunity to represent the Center at a meeting where the X-1 was first being discussed. Can you share with us about that meeting and your impressions of what you were learning?

[User] Well, Stack had gone to Europe. He'd made his first European trip, and he was a member of the High-Speed Panel. He normally would have gone. But because he was in Europe, I went. I substituted for him. I mentioned that in the [book].

[Assistant] You did. I thought it was an interesting meeting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I used to go out to Ames every now and then.

[Assistant] At one point you had an opportunity to represent the Center at a meeting where the X-1 was first being discussed. Can you share with us about that meeting and your impressions of what you were learning?

[User] Well, Stack had gone to Europe. He'd made his first European trip, and he was a member of the High-Speed Panel. He normally would have gone. But because he was in Europe, I went. I substituted for him. I mentioned that in the [book].

[Assistant] You did. I thought it was an interesting meeting.

[User] That was where [Melvin N.] Gough made his unfortunate remark about never letting NASA pilots fly in rockets. I think he wished he'd never [said] that. But that happens all the time. One other thing [that] happened. He and another Langley pilot were about to take off from National Airport, it's now named after [President Ronald] Reagan. They got down to the end of the runway to take off—and maybe you've heard this—but they were going back to Langley, and Mel told the copilot—he claims he said, "Lower the flap 20 degrees." For takeoff they sometimes use a little flap. It was the Lockheed Electra, which is a ten-passenger twin-engine. According to Mel, the copilot, instead of lowering the flap, pulled the handle that retracted the landing gear. The landing gear came up, and the airplane squashed down on the runway, broke the propellers. Mel thoroughly, totally blamed it on the copilot not doing what he said. The copilot had a slightly different story—was that the instruction that he got was not all that clear, and he without thinking pulled up the landing gear.

[Assistant] Goodness, that's pretty memorable. Tell us how you got involved working on the X-15.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I'm not quite sure how—I think there were seven of us that jointly hold the patents. I could probably tell you their names now. I know Jerry was one, Allen [B.] Kehlet, Max. There's got to be more, but I don't know. I don't know who selected those names. Now, some of them were obvious, certainly Faget and some of the others, but I don't really know how we picked those names out, but I'm glad they picked my name as one of them. [Laughter] Like I told you, you could take a dollar and that patent and buy a Coca-cola, but it's nice to have my name written on that thing.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I'm rattling on like I know what I'm talking about.

[Assistant] No. That's okay. We want to hear whatever you have to say. I was also then going to ask you a little bit about the automatic control systems, and you may not have delved into it so much, being that you were more the theoretical side of development, but did you debate whether or not it should be completely automatic—

[User] Yes, there was—

[Assistant] —or whether it should have some manual controls for the astronauts to maneuver the Mercury spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I kind of jumped Gemini mostly at the beginning. Well, see, Apollo had started by the time Gemini was going, and what Gemini was, was really exploiting the Mercury. It was with McDonnell, and there were some things that had been learned on Mercury that they decided, "Well, we'd better do it different," if you had to do it over again, and decided it was very necessary to explore this business of rendezvous to see whether that concept would work. You couldn't do it with Mercury, so they decided to do it with Gemini. But at the same time, there was a group of us working on Apollo, in the early stages of Apollo.\n\n I saw something here that I might say something. It says, "NACA-2 Space Task Group."

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] You may have heard this story before, but they wanted X number of people there [Space Task Group], and Robert Gilruth went to Floyd [L. "Tommy] Thompson, who was the chief engineer of Langley, and he said, "I need," whatever it was, "fifty people."\n\n Floyd Thompson said, "Well, that's fair enough."\n\n Gilruth said, "Well, I'd like to go around to pick them."\n\n Floyd said, "Well, I can't quite agree to that." He said, "You want fifty, you pick twenty-five and I'll pick twenty-five."\n\n And to this day, no one knows which side of that twenty-five they were on, whether Floyd wanted to get rid of us or— [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] Did you ever find the story of how you got chosen?

[User] No, I decided not to ask. I decided not to inquire. Besides, Floyd Thompson is now passed away, and Gilruth is not in good shape, so I wouldn't know anyway.

[Assistant] For the American space program, we're very fortunate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You may have heard this story before, but they wanted X number of people there [Space Task Group], and Robert Gilruth went to Floyd [L. "Tommy] Thompson, who was the chief engineer of Langley, and he said, "I need," whatever it was, "fifty people."\n\n Floyd Thompson said, "Well, that's fair enough."\n\n Gilruth said, "Well, I'd like to go around to pick them."\n\n Floyd said, "Well, I can't quite agree to that." He said, "You want fifty, you pick twenty-five and I'll pick twenty-five."\n\n And to this day, no one knows which side of that twenty-five they were on, whether Floyd wanted to get rid of us or— [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] Did you ever find the story of how you got chosen?

[User] No, I decided not to ask. I decided not to inquire. Besides, Floyd Thompson is now passed away, and Gilruth is not in good shape, so I wouldn't know anyway.

[Assistant] For the American space program, we're very fortunate.

[User] Well, whatever it was, I sure like the way it came out.

[Assistant] In the Gemini program, were you involved with the rendezvous and docking mechanisms at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I decided not to ask. I decided not to inquire. Besides, Floyd Thompson is now passed away, and Gilruth is not in good shape, so I wouldn't know anyway.

[Assistant] For the American space program, we're very fortunate.

[User] Well, whatever it was, I sure like the way it came out.

[Assistant] In the Gemini program, were you involved with the rendezvous and docking mechanisms at all?

[User] No. It seems kind of strange now, but I wasn't. Well, it was really, like I said, by that time I was busy with Apollo.

[Assistant] How did you get started on Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, whatever it was, I sure like the way it came out.

[Assistant] In the Gemini program, were you involved with the rendezvous and docking mechanisms at all?

[User] No. It seems kind of strange now, but I wasn't. Well, it was really, like I said, by that time I was busy with Apollo.

[Assistant] How did you get started on Apollo?

[User] Same way with Mercury. I know people were speculating, once you see that you can orbit—it really hadn't been done, but everybody had convinced ourselves that it was a piece of cake. So then we were speculating about the moon, and it was the next place to go. It was out of the question to go to any of the planets, but the moon seemed reachable. I must admit, I didn't have a lot of confidence in the whole thing, but somehow it struck me that how in God's world are you going to ever hit the moon in the right place that far away to go, you know? But after a while I became convinced, too, with a lot of other people.

[Assistant] How did you know that it wasn't made out of green cheese?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were interesting incidents that would occur, though. One time we made a trip to Leningrad while we were there over a weekend. When we all came back, we all have dysentery. Oh man, some guys just damned near died, you know, and we protested like mad all about this, and they said, "Nonsense. Nothing wrong with the water in Leningrad. You just brought this [problem] with you." So that was that.\n\n Well, it was not long after that that they rented some rooms in a little motel in Webster, and they were kind of living there, and they were walking around barefoot and taking showers in the stalls, and they all came down with absolutely the worst cases of athlete's foot you've ever seen. We've got a whole bunch of little viruses that the Russians don't have any protection against, and they may not bother you and me, but it just ate their feet up alive. And they protested like mad, and we said, "Nonsense. You brought it with you." [Laughter] The doctors at JSC developed some sort of ointment for them, and it apparently was fairly effective, but the trouble is, it just smelled awful, and you could tell those guys a mile away. [Laughter] But it was a very interesting and nice.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, I don't want to keep Mr. Faget waiting for you too long, so we can stop it here if you like.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I would like, at some point, to maybe talk to you again and see if we can briefly cover some of these things and then go back and research a little bit more on what we've talked about so we can—

[User] We should get involved with Skylab somewhere along the line.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I'd like to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I would like, at some point, to maybe talk to you again and see if we can briefly cover some of these things and then go back and research a little bit more on what we've talked about so we can—

[User] We should get involved with Skylab somewhere along the line.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I'd like to do that.

[User] Because Skylab had some very interesting things that went on. For the most part, JSC does not know much about Skylab, because JSC didn't participate much in Skylab. There were just a few of us in the Skylab.

[Assistant] I'd like to do Skylab and also shuttle as well. Shuttle is very important. So at some point, if you don't mind, I'd like to maybe arrange another time, if that's okay with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We should get involved with Skylab somewhere along the line.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I'd like to do that.

[User] Because Skylab had some very interesting things that went on. For the most part, JSC does not know much about Skylab, because JSC didn't participate much in Skylab. There were just a few of us in the Skylab.

[Assistant] I'd like to do Skylab and also shuttle as well. Shuttle is very important. So at some point, if you don't mind, I'd like to maybe arrange another time, if that's okay with you.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And we don't have to do it now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because Skylab had some very interesting things that went on. For the most part, JSC does not know much about Skylab, because JSC didn't participate much in Skylab. There were just a few of us in the Skylab.

[Assistant] I'd like to do Skylab and also shuttle as well. Shuttle is very important. So at some point, if you don't mind, I'd like to maybe arrange another time, if that's okay with you.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And we don't have to do it now.

[User] Let's do it later. We're going to have to leave this building in a week or so. Otherwise, this is a very convenient place. So if we can do something in a week or so, this would be a good place to do it.

[Assistant] Great. And if it's convenient for you, we can do it over at NASA and do it in our offices, whatever works best for you. You're really helping us out, and we want to make it as accommodating as possible. I really appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And we don't have to do it now.

[User] Let's do it later. We're going to have to leave this building in a week or so. Otherwise, this is a very convenient place. So if we can do something in a week or so, this would be a good place to do it.

[Assistant] Great. And if it's convenient for you, we can do it over at NASA and do it in our offices, whatever works best for you. You're really helping us out, and we want to make it as accommodating as possible. I really appreciate it.

[User] Okay. What do you want to do about such things as these documents and sketches and things like that?

[Assistant] I don't know. I mean, I would love to look through them, but I don't know how you are with them. Obviously I wouldn't want to take them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's do it later. We're going to have to leave this building in a week or so. Otherwise, this is a very convenient place. So if we can do something in a week or so, this would be a good place to do it.

[Assistant] Great. And if it's convenient for you, we can do it over at NASA and do it in our offices, whatever works best for you. You're really helping us out, and we want to make it as accommodating as possible. I really appreciate it.

[User] Okay. What do you want to do about such things as these documents and sketches and things like that?

[Assistant] I don't know. I mean, I would love to look through them, but I don't know how you are with them. Obviously I wouldn't want to take them.

[User] I would be reluctant to just have them all disappear.

[Assistant] Oh, no. Absolutely. Those are treasures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in college at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. I was aware of Peace Corps probably through news media. I had a fraternity brother who had gone into the Peace Corps. I was well aware that I didn't want to go into military service.

[Assistant] What were you studying?

[User] Um, I have a degree in agriculture. I think that I was also going to be the idealism of the early ‘60s which I think was the kind of idealism that was probably rampant among young people and very hopeful among the middle aged and older. It really was an exciting time. And I thought the Peace Corps offered an incredible opportunity to be someplace else and do something significant. At the end of the Peace Corps, I.

[Assistant] Well, we can come to that, but let's talk about when you got to training, for example. Let's talk about that experience a little bit.

[User] That was kind of exciting. It was an incredible mixed bag.

[Assistant] Of people, you mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I have a degree in agriculture. I think that I was also going to be the idealism of the early ‘60s which I think was the kind of idealism that was probably rampant among young people and very hopeful among the middle aged and older. It really was an exciting time. And I thought the Peace Corps offered an incredible opportunity to be someplace else and do something significant. At the end of the Peace Corps, I.

[Assistant] Well, we can come to that, but let's talk about when you got to training, for example. Let's talk about that experience a little bit.

[User] That was kind of exciting. It was an incredible mixed bag.

[Assistant] Of people, you mean?

[User] Yes, because I think there were about 60. My initial impact was, what are we all doing here? I found it in some way scary because there was this variety of people there. And I guess in some way, a variety of in the range of stability, I think that would be putting it kindly.

[Assistant] So talk about what your reaction was when you got there and, you know, were doing the activities that they.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was kind of exciting. It was an incredible mixed bag.

[Assistant] Of people, you mean?

[User] Yes, because I think there were about 60. My initial impact was, what are we all doing here? I found it in some way scary because there was this variety of people there. And I guess in some way, a variety of in the range of stability, I think that would be putting it kindly.

[Assistant] So talk about what your reaction was when you got there and, you know, were doing the activities that they.

[User] Some of it seemed rather trite to me because of some of the agricultural training was pretty much things that I'd had in high school. Or maybe college. Not a lot of the agricultural stuff with new other than the subtropical perhaps, but the agricultural training wasn't overly useful for me. The language training, for me personally, was not good. In part because I'd never studied a language. In subsequent years in the Peace Corps, I realized that that I’m visual learner and our training was auditory, to repeat and repeat and repeat. Well, that's not how I learn. And no one told me that and I didn't know. That began to settle in when I came back and went to graduate school. So I think that the training was good in terms of an endurance test. I think that some of the things that they put us through. I think the selection process was at times scary. I thought the whole selection process was probably initially poor. They could have done a much better job of screening people before they got there. I think the Peace Corps has changed significantly since then. To start out with about 60 people and wind up with 32 does not suggest that the institution has a good working model or theory on which to do the programming.

[Assistant] I don't think they did at that time, do you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. But that's how institutions learn, and I'm not sure that the institution got better. I think it was not necessarily to our advantage to have gotten moved around as much as we did. Because we started out as at Arizona State, then went on to the Indian reservation, then we went to the physical training camp at Arecibo, and then we went to Mayaguez, then we came home, then we take off from Miami and we were held up and so we went to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] Ok, so of the experiences in that time, is there anything that really stands out in your mind? In that training period?

[User] I think that one of the things that, what I would think of generally as a certain level of disorganization, I think it made us resilient. While that was not the intent to make it seem that way. I think it did in some other ways that they didn't recognize. They wanted us to be prepared. I think, yeah, they did, but I'm not sure that it in the way they had planned. I think the kind of bonding that happened, I really wasn't aware of the depth of bonding within the group until I came to first end year. Because we were a very mixed group and we did not have what I would have thought of it as harmony at all times. Give us a chance. And we could be argumentative.

[Assistant] Do you think it was probably the training process that further developed that bonded, that esprit de corps, or whatever?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I have to say, I think it's probably one of the more unusual training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that one of the things that, what I would think of generally as a certain level of disorganization, I think it made us resilient. While that was not the intent to make it seem that way. I think it did in some other ways that they didn't recognize. They wanted us to be prepared. I think, yeah, they did, but I'm not sure that it in the way they had planned. I think the kind of bonding that happened, I really wasn't aware of the depth of bonding within the group until I came to first end year. Because we were a very mixed group and we did not have what I would have thought of it as harmony at all times. Give us a chance. And we could be argumentative.

[Assistant] Do you think it was probably the training process that further developed that bonded, that esprit de corps, or whatever?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I have to say, I think it's probably one of the more unusual training.

[User] Probably. I think that that there were for me, the Peace Corps really became a growing up experience in terms of young adulthood. College really didn't do it because I never really had to leave home, well I did leave home and lived in Madison, but I was back to the family farm often.

[Assistant] How old were you when you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I have to say, I think it's probably one of the more unusual training.

[User] Probably. I think that that there were for me, the Peace Corps really became a growing up experience in terms of young adulthood. College really didn't do it because I never really had to leave home, well I did leave home and lived in Madison, but I was back to the family farm often.

[Assistant] How old were you when you?

[User] 22, 23. But the other people in the group really hadn't been away from home either, for the most part. They may have traveled some, but for the most part, it was our major cross cultural experience, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah, going on from that. When was there anything that really stands out in your mind about the Puerto Rican experience? All the different kinds of activities that we did there at the physical training and the various?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. I think that that there were for me, the Peace Corps really became a growing up experience in terms of young adulthood. College really didn't do it because I never really had to leave home, well I did leave home and lived in Madison, but I was back to the family farm often.

[Assistant] How old were you when you?

[User] 22, 23. But the other people in the group really hadn't been away from home either, for the most part. They may have traveled some, but for the most part, it was our major cross cultural experience, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah, going on from that. When was there anything that really stands out in your mind about the Puerto Rican experience? All the different kinds of activities that we did there at the physical training and the various?

[User] Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I missed it. Because playing baseball out on the Indian reservation in Arizona, I got hit with a baseball bat, and it split the skin on my chin and it didn't heal. So they sutured it in Arizona and then it didn't heal right. And it had to be resewn. So I couldn't get in the swimming pool and in Puerto Rico, I couldn't go out in the tracks, I didn't go out on the overnight camping.

[Assistant] Did you not do the 40 mile?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 22, 23. But the other people in the group really hadn't been away from home either, for the most part. They may have traveled some, but for the most part, it was our major cross cultural experience, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah, going on from that. When was there anything that really stands out in your mind about the Puerto Rican experience? All the different kinds of activities that we did there at the physical training and the various?

[User] Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I missed it. Because playing baseball out on the Indian reservation in Arizona, I got hit with a baseball bat, and it split the skin on my chin and it didn't heal. So they sutured it in Arizona and then it didn't heal right. And it had to be resewn. So I couldn't get in the swimming pool and in Puerto Rico, I couldn't go out in the tracks, I didn't go out on the overnight camping.

[Assistant] Did you not do the 40 mile?

[User] No, no, no. I missed all of that. Oh, I missed drown proofing. Yeah, I missed the panic. Well, I witnessed the panic of some of the people getting into the pool with their hands tied. And I also witnessed their fear and resulting anger. And so I stood by the poolside and tried to be consoling and supportive of those who were being thrown into the pool.

[Assistant] Did you not do any of the mountain climbing or the rappelling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I missed it. Because playing baseball out on the Indian reservation in Arizona, I got hit with a baseball bat, and it split the skin on my chin and it didn't heal. So they sutured it in Arizona and then it didn't heal right. And it had to be resewn. So I couldn't get in the swimming pool and in Puerto Rico, I couldn't go out in the tracks, I didn't go out on the overnight camping.

[Assistant] Did you not do the 40 mile?

[User] No, no, no. I missed all of that. Oh, I missed drown proofing. Yeah, I missed the panic. Well, I witnessed the panic of some of the people getting into the pool with their hands tied. And I also witnessed their fear and resulting anger. And so I stood by the poolside and tried to be consoling and supportive of those who were being thrown into the pool.

[Assistant] Did you not do any of the mountain climbing or the rappelling?

[User] Rappelling, I got to do. And I thought, oh, this is wonderful.

[Assistant] No fear of heights for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. I missed all of that. Oh, I missed drown proofing. Yeah, I missed the panic. Well, I witnessed the panic of some of the people getting into the pool with their hands tied. And I also witnessed their fear and resulting anger. And so I stood by the poolside and tried to be consoling and supportive of those who were being thrown into the pool.

[Assistant] Did you not do any of the mountain climbing or the rappelling?

[User] Rappelling, I got to do. And I thought, oh, this is wonderful.

[Assistant] No fear of heights for you.

[User] Actually, that's probably quite a bit. But said, I'm probably competitive and there are a lot of things that I would do on a dare, which I wouldn’t volunteer to do otherwise.

[Assistant] Ok, after when you decided to go in the Peace Corps, what your family and friends think about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rappelling, I got to do. And I thought, oh, this is wonderful.

[Assistant] No fear of heights for you.

[User] Actually, that's probably quite a bit. But said, I'm probably competitive and there are a lot of things that I would do on a dare, which I wouldn’t volunteer to do otherwise.

[Assistant] Ok, after when you decided to go in the Peace Corps, what your family and friends think about that?

[User] I think probably my parents would have had some anxiety about where and where I was going, what was going to happen, what I knew about it, but my older brother had been in military service and I think whatever anxiety they might have had would have been pretty normal. As I recall, they were supportive. I think, probably excited about that when one of the kids, was first of all, finishing college, and secondly, going to do something kind of special because Peace Corps was something special then.

[Assistant] Ok, now what can you tell us what project you were part of and what, you know, you were assigned to do in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, that's probably quite a bit. But said, I'm probably competitive and there are a lot of things that I would do on a dare, which I wouldn’t volunteer to do otherwise.

[Assistant] Ok, after when you decided to go in the Peace Corps, what your family and friends think about that?

[User] I think probably my parents would have had some anxiety about where and where I was going, what was going to happen, what I knew about it, but my older brother had been in military service and I think whatever anxiety they might have had would have been pretty normal. As I recall, they were supportive. I think, probably excited about that when one of the kids, was first of all, finishing college, and secondly, going to do something kind of special because Peace Corps was something special then.

[Assistant] Ok, now what can you tell us what project you were part of and what, you know, you were assigned to do in Bolivia?

[User] Well, I thought I was going to Bolivia to work at an agricultural experiment station, which was true. That's where I went, at General Saavedra, and I thought I was going to work on a dairy project and they were going to develop a dairy herd, which I thought, well, that's kind of exciting. I grew up on a dairy farm. I'll be OK there. And to work on the pastures or forages, which I thought, well, I don't know much about subtropical pastures. But I'll survive that. Well, as the months moved past, the cows never came. And after I was there several months, somebody from U.S. AID came and said, oh no, we’re not sending cows here. I thought, don't aid programs tell the Bolivian institutions what's going on? Because AID did support this experiment station and experiment station director didn't know. So I didn't have a real positive view of USAID. I thought they spent a lot of money. And I thought they probably not necessarily very happy with Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, a lot of Peace Corps volunteers were not happy with the status quo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably my parents would have had some anxiety about where and where I was going, what was going to happen, what I knew about it, but my older brother had been in military service and I think whatever anxiety they might have had would have been pretty normal. As I recall, they were supportive. I think, probably excited about that when one of the kids, was first of all, finishing college, and secondly, going to do something kind of special because Peace Corps was something special then.

[Assistant] Ok, now what can you tell us what project you were part of and what, you know, you were assigned to do in Bolivia?

[User] Well, I thought I was going to Bolivia to work at an agricultural experiment station, which was true. That's where I went, at General Saavedra, and I thought I was going to work on a dairy project and they were going to develop a dairy herd, which I thought, well, that's kind of exciting. I grew up on a dairy farm. I'll be OK there. And to work on the pastures or forages, which I thought, well, I don't know much about subtropical pastures. But I'll survive that. Well, as the months moved past, the cows never came. And after I was there several months, somebody from U.S. AID came and said, oh no, we’re not sending cows here. I thought, don't aid programs tell the Bolivian institutions what's going on? Because AID did support this experiment station and experiment station director didn't know. So I didn't have a real positive view of USAID. I thought they spent a lot of money. And I thought they probably not necessarily very happy with Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, a lot of Peace Corps volunteers were not happy with the status quo.

[User] True. So I worked on these little pasture plots the whole time that I was there.

[Assistant] When you say worked on pasture plots, what do you mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I thought I was going to Bolivia to work at an agricultural experiment station, which was true. That's where I went, at General Saavedra, and I thought I was going to work on a dairy project and they were going to develop a dairy herd, which I thought, well, that's kind of exciting. I grew up on a dairy farm. I'll be OK there. And to work on the pastures or forages, which I thought, well, I don't know much about subtropical pastures. But I'll survive that. Well, as the months moved past, the cows never came. And after I was there several months, somebody from U.S. AID came and said, oh no, we’re not sending cows here. I thought, don't aid programs tell the Bolivian institutions what's going on? Because AID did support this experiment station and experiment station director didn't know. So I didn't have a real positive view of USAID. I thought they spent a lot of money. And I thought they probably not necessarily very happy with Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, a lot of Peace Corps volunteers were not happy with the status quo.

[User] True. So I worked on these little pasture plots the whole time that I was there.

[Assistant] When you say worked on pasture plots, what do you mean?

[User] I planted a variety of grass seeds. So we have these little forage plots and check them to see what the growth was, whether they might adapt to the area.

[Assistant] Did you find any that worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] True. So I worked on these little pasture plots the whole time that I was there.

[Assistant] When you say worked on pasture plots, what do you mean?

[User] I planted a variety of grass seeds. So we have these little forage plots and check them to see what the growth was, whether they might adapt to the area.

[Assistant] Did you find any that worked?

[User] Yeah, after I'd been there for while and we had. We did plant a field or two after we had grown enough cuttings to plant. But yeah.

[Assistant] So the job was a little bit too slow and not real defined?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I planted a variety of grass seeds. So we have these little forage plots and check them to see what the growth was, whether they might adapt to the area.

[Assistant] Did you find any that worked?

[User] Yeah, after I'd been there for while and we had. We did plant a field or two after we had grown enough cuttings to plant. But yeah.

[Assistant] So the job was a little bit too slow and not real defined?

[User] Um, I'm not sure that they really knew what to do with me at times, and I'm not sure I knew what to do with them. But I think other volunteers found that also. And so I did work with extension for a few months also. Before I got hepatitis.

[Assistant] Did you get hepatitis? Hepatitis A?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, after I'd been there for while and we had. We did plant a field or two after we had grown enough cuttings to plant. But yeah.

[Assistant] So the job was a little bit too slow and not real defined?

[User] Um, I'm not sure that they really knew what to do with me at times, and I'm not sure I knew what to do with them. But I think other volunteers found that also. And so I did work with extension for a few months also. Before I got hepatitis.

[Assistant] Did you get hepatitis? Hepatitis A?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But when was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I'm not sure that they really knew what to do with me at times, and I'm not sure I knew what to do with them. But I think other volunteers found that also. And so I did work with extension for a few months also. Before I got hepatitis.

[Assistant] Did you get hepatitis? Hepatitis A?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But when was that?

[User] March of ’64.

[Assistant] Oh, you were almost ready to go home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But when was that?

[User] March of ’64.

[Assistant] Oh, you were almost ready to go home.

[User] Well, maybe this was even before March. It must have been before much because I spent my 25th birthday at the clinic of Santa Isabel in La Paz.

[Assistant] Oh, all the way to La Paz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] March of ’64.

[Assistant] Oh, you were almost ready to go home.

[User] Well, maybe this was even before March. It must have been before much because I spent my 25th birthday at the clinic of Santa Isabel in La Paz.

[Assistant] Oh, all the way to La Paz?

[User] Yeah, and I think the president's wife was at the same clinic at that time. He would come to visit in the morning. He’d come in with his escort in the morning.

[Assistant] So, OK, so you, I have to ask you, Pete, you know, we all the rumor going around was that you had saved up so much money you had to hang out to dry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, maybe this was even before March. It must have been before much because I spent my 25th birthday at the clinic of Santa Isabel in La Paz.

[Assistant] Oh, all the way to La Paz?

[User] Yeah, and I think the president's wife was at the same clinic at that time. He would come to visit in the morning. He’d come in with his escort in the morning.

[Assistant] So, OK, so you, I have to ask you, Pete, you know, we all the rumor going around was that you had saved up so much money you had to hang out to dry.

[User] No, no!

[Assistant] Cause we got paid in all those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and I think the president's wife was at the same clinic at that time. He would come to visit in the morning. He’d come in with his escort in the morning.

[Assistant] So, OK, so you, I have to ask you, Pete, you know, we all the rumor going around was that you had saved up so much money you had to hang out to dry.

[User] No, no!

[Assistant] Cause we got paid in all those.

[User] Sure. Yeah. Well, I never had to hang it up to dry, but I did have a large stock and I kept it in a suitcase and I remember one month the money will slow coming from Washington and Harold needed to pay the volunteers, so, I gave them gave him the money.

[Assistant] Bankrolled the volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no!

[Assistant] Cause we got paid in all those.

[User] Sure. Yeah. Well, I never had to hang it up to dry, but I did have a large stock and I kept it in a suitcase and I remember one month the money will slow coming from Washington and Harold needed to pay the volunteers, so, I gave them gave him the money.

[Assistant] Bankrolled the volunteers.

[User] Well, yeah, but you know, money, money. And so those days and subsequent years and I mean, you get this huge pile of it.

[Assistant] And didn’t really mean anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yeah. Well, I never had to hang it up to dry, but I did have a large stock and I kept it in a suitcase and I remember one month the money will slow coming from Washington and Harold needed to pay the volunteers, so, I gave them gave him the money.

[Assistant] Bankrolled the volunteers.

[User] Well, yeah, but you know, money, money. And so those days and subsequent years and I mean, you get this huge pile of it.

[Assistant] And didn’t really mean anything.

[User] No, it didn’t. And actually, whatever amount that we got, I think it may be 90 or 100 a month.

[Assistant] I think it was 80 dollars or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it didn’t. And actually, whatever amount that we got, I think it may be 90 or 100 a month.

[Assistant] I think it was 80 dollars or something.

[User] And I didn't have any place to spend that. So I did save. I've always been frugal and saved anyway. So, yeah, so to the best of my recollection, the stories that I would hang up my money to dry it was.

[Assistant] A fabrication?

[User] Yeah, somewhat.

[Assistant] Didn't have to guard against mildew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I didn't have any place to spend that. So I did save. I've always been frugal and saved anyway. So, yeah, so to the best of my recollection, the stories that I would hang up my money to dry it was.

[Assistant] A fabrication?

[User] Yeah, somewhat.

[Assistant] Didn't have to guard against mildew.

[User] Well, actually, I think it did mildew. Like everything.

[Assistant] Yes, it probably did. OK, so you're down in Santa Cruz and after like the first midway through your time there, what were you feeling and how what kind of things were happening after the first day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, somewhat.

[Assistant] Didn't have to guard against mildew.

[User] Well, actually, I think it did mildew. Like everything.

[Assistant] Yes, it probably did. OK, so you're down in Santa Cruz and after like the first midway through your time there, what were you feeling and how what kind of things were happening after the first day?

[User] I remember the feeling of not being real productive. And I think that the expectation that I was going to make the world kind of contribution and the fact that that didn't happen. I think that was tough. I think that one of the experiences as a young adult, that we're not going to change the world, and that was that was not only the feeling at the end of the first year, but certainly when I came home, I had that feeling and I still do. I can't say I did anything wonderful for poor Bolivia, but I didn't do them any damage, I'm reasonably sure of that. And it wasn't particularly what we did for Bolivia, it was what they did for us. Because when I look around the group, it changed our lives and our life, and for the most part, I think that it left an impact on most of us in terms of what we can do. I'm impressed with what people have done in terms of service to other people.

[Assistant] Lot of people involved in service kinds of work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, I think it did mildew. Like everything.

[Assistant] Yes, it probably did. OK, so you're down in Santa Cruz and after like the first midway through your time there, what were you feeling and how what kind of things were happening after the first day?

[User] I remember the feeling of not being real productive. And I think that the expectation that I was going to make the world kind of contribution and the fact that that didn't happen. I think that was tough. I think that one of the experiences as a young adult, that we're not going to change the world, and that was that was not only the feeling at the end of the first year, but certainly when I came home, I had that feeling and I still do. I can't say I did anything wonderful for poor Bolivia, but I didn't do them any damage, I'm reasonably sure of that. And it wasn't particularly what we did for Bolivia, it was what they did for us. Because when I look around the group, it changed our lives and our life, and for the most part, I think that it left an impact on most of us in terms of what we can do. I'm impressed with what people have done in terms of service to other people.

[Assistant] Lot of people involved in service kinds of work.

[User]
Yeah, and I'm not sure that that would have been true in the same. But I don't think it would have been true in the same way for me personally.

And I'm appreciative that that experience changed my life. And I think that that really was the significance of the Peace Corps. It what it did to a whole generation of people. A generation of U.S. citizens without damaging, without doing a whole lot of damage to other countries. And granted, some volunteers did do some damage.

[Assistant] Tell me when you weren't working. What did you do for fun or entertainment or recreation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the feeling of not being real productive. And I think that the expectation that I was going to make the world kind of contribution and the fact that that didn't happen. I think that was tough. I think that one of the experiences as a young adult, that we're not going to change the world, and that was that was not only the feeling at the end of the first year, but certainly when I came home, I had that feeling and I still do. I can't say I did anything wonderful for poor Bolivia, but I didn't do them any damage, I'm reasonably sure of that. And it wasn't particularly what we did for Bolivia, it was what they did for us. Because when I look around the group, it changed our lives and our life, and for the most part, I think that it left an impact on most of us in terms of what we can do. I'm impressed with what people have done in terms of service to other people.

[Assistant] Lot of people involved in service kinds of work.

[User]
Yeah, and I'm not sure that that would have been true in the same. But I don't think it would have been true in the same way for me personally.

And I'm appreciative that that experience changed my life. And I think that that really was the significance of the Peace Corps. It what it did to a whole generation of people. A generation of U.S. citizens without damaging, without doing a whole lot of damage to other countries. And granted, some volunteers did do some damage.

[Assistant] Tell me when you weren't working. What did you do for fun or entertainment or recreation?

[User] Well, initially I spent some time with the people and they were readily available, you know, tried to play soccer and realized that I really was too old to play the game and not in as good a physical shape as they were.

[Assistant] Did you do take any trips, vacations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, and I'm not sure that that would have been true in the same. But I don't think it would have been true in the same way for me personally.

And I'm appreciative that that experience changed my life. And I think that that really was the significance of the Peace Corps. It what it did to a whole generation of people. A generation of U.S. citizens without damaging, without doing a whole lot of damage to other countries. And granted, some volunteers did do some damage.

[Assistant] Tell me when you weren't working. What did you do for fun or entertainment or recreation?

[User] Well, initially I spent some time with the people and they were readily available, you know, tried to play soccer and realized that I really was too old to play the game and not in as good a physical shape as they were.

[Assistant] Did you do take any trips, vacations?

[User] Bill and I went to Asuncion and then Chile. Took the train back to Bolivia. So I only took the one.

[Assistant] How was that trip? Pretty good? Interesting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, initially I spent some time with the people and they were readily available, you know, tried to play soccer and realized that I really was too old to play the game and not in as good a physical shape as they were.

[Assistant] Did you do take any trips, vacations?

[User] Bill and I went to Asuncion and then Chile. Took the train back to Bolivia. So I only took the one.

[Assistant] How was that trip? Pretty good? Interesting?

[User] I thought so, yeah. Um. Yeah, it was a good adventure for me and I think gave me some motivation or courage to go back to Bolivia by myself and travel.

[Assistant] And when did you go back to Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bill and I went to Asuncion and then Chile. Took the train back to Bolivia. So I only took the one.

[Assistant] How was that trip? Pretty good? Interesting?

[User] I thought so, yeah. Um. Yeah, it was a good adventure for me and I think gave me some motivation or courage to go back to Bolivia by myself and travel.

[Assistant] And when did you go back to Bolivia?

[User] ‘69, ‘70.

[Assistant] So various times.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought so, yeah. Um. Yeah, it was a good adventure for me and I think gave me some motivation or courage to go back to Bolivia by myself and travel.

[Assistant] And when did you go back to Bolivia?

[User] ‘69, ‘70.

[Assistant] So various times.

[User] I've been back by five times. The last of which was 1984, with Brian Bennett.

[Assistant] And so what did you do when you went back? Do you have any projects going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ‘69, ‘70.

[Assistant] So various times.

[User] I've been back by five times. The last of which was 1984, with Brian Bennett.

[Assistant] And so what did you do when you went back? Do you have any projects going on?

[User] I didn’t have any projects. Met a woman from Bolivia at University of Wisconsin when I was going to graduate school in the ‘60s. And I was aware that she had gone back to take care of a parent. I looked her up and when I went back, I would stay with her and her family, that would be my launching site to travel around the country, so I actually wound up seeing a whole lot more of Bolivia after that. Like going to Copensee and Sucre, Poderon. I’ve spent a fair amount of time there. Part of what I did was collected art.

[Assistant] Oh, Bolivian art. You know, I still have some stuff that's hanging in my house and I framed it with prints that I got there. They’re really nice when you get them framed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've been back by five times. The last of which was 1984, with Brian Bennett.

[Assistant] And so what did you do when you went back? Do you have any projects going on?

[User] I didn’t have any projects. Met a woman from Bolivia at University of Wisconsin when I was going to graduate school in the ‘60s. And I was aware that she had gone back to take care of a parent. I looked her up and when I went back, I would stay with her and her family, that would be my launching site to travel around the country, so I actually wound up seeing a whole lot more of Bolivia after that. Like going to Copensee and Sucre, Poderon. I’ve spent a fair amount of time there. Part of what I did was collected art.

[Assistant] Oh, Bolivian art. You know, I still have some stuff that's hanging in my house and I framed it with prints that I got there. They’re really nice when you get them framed.

[User] Yeah, I probably collected at least 50 paintings and prints from 12 of 15 different artists. Collected some from a Bolivian artist after I came back. Also collected an assortment of other things, like hand spun and hand woven things, ponchos, little coca purses. Incredible detail where they’ll have like a dozen horses fighting. Wonderful pieces. But collected a whole variety of other hand spun kinds of things too. Collected silver spoons, the one time that that yeah, that that I was there. Tupu. They were spoon shaped thing with a stick pin end and the woman wore them to hold their shawls. I have a few of those. We just collected a whole variety of stuff.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep in contact with any of the people that you had worked with before when you went back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t have any projects. Met a woman from Bolivia at University of Wisconsin when I was going to graduate school in the ‘60s. And I was aware that she had gone back to take care of a parent. I looked her up and when I went back, I would stay with her and her family, that would be my launching site to travel around the country, so I actually wound up seeing a whole lot more of Bolivia after that. Like going to Copensee and Sucre, Poderon. I’ve spent a fair amount of time there. Part of what I did was collected art.

[Assistant] Oh, Bolivian art. You know, I still have some stuff that's hanging in my house and I framed it with prints that I got there. They’re really nice when you get them framed.

[User] Yeah, I probably collected at least 50 paintings and prints from 12 of 15 different artists. Collected some from a Bolivian artist after I came back. Also collected an assortment of other things, like hand spun and hand woven things, ponchos, little coca purses. Incredible detail where they’ll have like a dozen horses fighting. Wonderful pieces. But collected a whole variety of other hand spun kinds of things too. Collected silver spoons, the one time that that yeah, that that I was there. Tupu. They were spoon shaped thing with a stick pin end and the woman wore them to hold their shawls. I have a few of those. We just collected a whole variety of stuff.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep in contact with any of the people that you had worked with before when you went back?

[User] I did briefly with my counterpart because they came to the States eventually and [inaudible] went to the University of Utah. I went out to see them I think in December of ’71. And I used to stop and see them. Correspondence, you know, but I don't correspond well with anybody. So.

[Assistant] Bolivians are not known noted for their correspondences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I probably collected at least 50 paintings and prints from 12 of 15 different artists. Collected some from a Bolivian artist after I came back. Also collected an assortment of other things, like hand spun and hand woven things, ponchos, little coca purses. Incredible detail where they’ll have like a dozen horses fighting. Wonderful pieces. But collected a whole variety of other hand spun kinds of things too. Collected silver spoons, the one time that that yeah, that that I was there. Tupu. They were spoon shaped thing with a stick pin end and the woman wore them to hold their shawls. I have a few of those. We just collected a whole variety of stuff.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep in contact with any of the people that you had worked with before when you went back?

[User] I did briefly with my counterpart because they came to the States eventually and [inaudible] went to the University of Utah. I went out to see them I think in December of ’71. And I used to stop and see them. Correspondence, you know, but I don't correspond well with anybody. So.

[Assistant] Bolivians are not known noted for their correspondences.

[User] Well, well, well, I reciprocated that type of relationship very well.

[Assistant] So can you think of. Tell me about any of the things that you remember that happened that we haven't talked about that were impressive or the good or bad or whatever. Any kinds of things that happened. Where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did briefly with my counterpart because they came to the States eventually and [inaudible] went to the University of Utah. I went out to see them I think in December of ’71. And I used to stop and see them. Correspondence, you know, but I don't correspond well with anybody. So.

[Assistant] Bolivians are not known noted for their correspondences.

[User] Well, well, well, I reciprocated that type of relationship very well.

[Assistant] So can you think of. Tell me about any of the things that you remember that happened that we haven't talked about that were impressive or the good or bad or whatever. Any kinds of things that happened. Where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] I was at Saavedra. And I remember that one of the other, one of the technicians came and said that he had been shot. I was impressed with what kind of a moment that was and how that affected the Bolivians, that they expressed sympathy. There was some expression that, you know, that maybe Lyndon Johnson had had him shot. Because that would have been a normal Bolivian kind of a thought. I mean, do your enemy in. But yeah, Kennedy's death, that was the one time that I would like to have been back in the States in a certain sense. It wouldn't have made any difference, but. We also had a kind of meeting in Cochabamba at that time, I think that was good for us.

[Assistant] So tell me, looking back over your time there, what you did. I think you already addressed this when you said you thought the major thing that happened was what you got from the Bolivians rather than any contribution you made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, the county at that time, we would have I think at that time we were probably doing some food stamps, aid to families with dependent children. I think we even had had disabled and some of those programs shifted to other but shifted around. But so it was a mixed bag caseload. Well, I lasted there about a year and a half, couldn’t cope with the director. He was just a sleaze. And I was still a purist and in terms of working standards. So the phrase probation in that county did leave and so I replaced him. And within the first week, I knew I didn't belong as a probation. So here's my whole educational background, which is in agriculture and extensions, six, seven years of it. And I don't want to do.

Actually. Actually, I knew when I finished that. Once I finished or graduated, I didn't have any need to do that anymore. I mean, I'd got my satisfaction out of it. So I wound up working for the Green Bay Diocese for 18 years, and that was wonderful.

[Assistant] So what did you do for them?

[User] I was a social worker with a mixed bag of some kinds of cases from adoption, depressed, family counseling.

[Assistant] Is that who you do the janitorial work for?

[User] And then I left there, I left there as I was finishing a master's in pastoral studies with Loyola. And in the process of that of the program with Loyola, I really became aware that there's more to life than tying all of your security to where you're at mid-life. I thought I really more of a survivor than what I ever thought I was, maybe, maybe I don't need that security that I can survive. So I became aware of the fact that I trusted some higher power that I was going to be all right. And so I made a decision that I would leave and did. Took my time in leaving and eventually did artwork for 10 years.

[Assistant] I understand you did the craft fair circuit and that kind of thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a social worker with a mixed bag of some kinds of cases from adoption, depressed, family counseling.

[Assistant] Is that who you do the janitorial work for?

[User] And then I left there, I left there as I was finishing a master's in pastoral studies with Loyola. And in the process of that of the program with Loyola, I really became aware that there's more to life than tying all of your security to where you're at mid-life. I thought I really more of a survivor than what I ever thought I was, maybe, maybe I don't need that security that I can survive. So I became aware of the fact that I trusted some higher power that I was going to be all right. And so I made a decision that I would leave and did. Took my time in leaving and eventually did artwork for 10 years.

[Assistant] I understand you did the craft fair circuit and that kind of thing.

[User] About nine years ago, the cost of health insurance was. It was at a point where it literally was going to take all of my income. It took more than what my net income was. Took half of what my gross income was, and I thought, well, I either go without or else I do something else. And it was time to consider other options, so.

[Assistant] So you said in the beginning that you thought that your time in the Peace Corps really contributed to the general place you ended up with and probably made you, it sounds like made you realize that you are a survivor. When you think of that and all the other things, do you think you would have done the things that you did subsequently without having initial Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I left there, I left there as I was finishing a master's in pastoral studies with Loyola. And in the process of that of the program with Loyola, I really became aware that there's more to life than tying all of your security to where you're at mid-life. I thought I really more of a survivor than what I ever thought I was, maybe, maybe I don't need that security that I can survive. So I became aware of the fact that I trusted some higher power that I was going to be all right. And so I made a decision that I would leave and did. Took my time in leaving and eventually did artwork for 10 years.

[Assistant] I understand you did the craft fair circuit and that kind of thing.

[User] About nine years ago, the cost of health insurance was. It was at a point where it literally was going to take all of my income. It took more than what my net income was. Took half of what my gross income was, and I thought, well, I either go without or else I do something else. And it was time to consider other options, so.

[Assistant] So you said in the beginning that you thought that your time in the Peace Corps really contributed to the general place you ended up with and probably made you, it sounds like made you realize that you are a survivor. When you think of that and all the other things, do you think you would have done the things that you did subsequently without having initial Peace Corps experience?

[User] I don't know. I can only say that nobody else in my family has. I think part of it being the third born child, you know, I guess I've always looked up to older siblings in terms of or they're smarter and they're more competent. Well, someplace along that line, I really began to have to take stock of my own competency. And it's not that I believe that I'm super competent, not at all. I think that life is a very humbling process.

[Assistant] Yeah, it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About nine years ago, the cost of health insurance was. It was at a point where it literally was going to take all of my income. It took more than what my net income was. Took half of what my gross income was, and I thought, well, I either go without or else I do something else. And it was time to consider other options, so.

[Assistant] So you said in the beginning that you thought that your time in the Peace Corps really contributed to the general place you ended up with and probably made you, it sounds like made you realize that you are a survivor. When you think of that and all the other things, do you think you would have done the things that you did subsequently without having initial Peace Corps experience?

[User] I don't know. I can only say that nobody else in my family has. I think part of it being the third born child, you know, I guess I've always looked up to older siblings in terms of or they're smarter and they're more competent. Well, someplace along that line, I really began to have to take stock of my own competency. And it's not that I believe that I'm super competent, not at all. I think that life is a very humbling process.

[Assistant] Yeah, it is.

[User] And when we think we’re somebody then we really need a need a reality check. And I think that that was a major contribution from the Peace Corps. It was a reality check that I wasn't going to change the world. Actually, that was hard coming home to.

[Assistant] You need to realize that the idealism was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I can only say that nobody else in my family has. I think part of it being the third born child, you know, I guess I've always looked up to older siblings in terms of or they're smarter and they're more competent. Well, someplace along that line, I really began to have to take stock of my own competency. And it's not that I believe that I'm super competent, not at all. I think that life is a very humbling process.

[Assistant] Yeah, it is.

[User] And when we think we’re somebody then we really need a need a reality check. And I think that that was a major contribution from the Peace Corps. It was a reality check that I wasn't going to change the world. Actually, that was hard coming home to.

[Assistant] You need to realize that the idealism was.

[User] The idealism was OK, but we're not always everything that we hope that we're going to become. But that's the reality of young adulthood is realizing that we're not going to be everything that we think that we might possibly be, and we're going to have to settle for what we got.

[Assistant] And if there's nothing wrong with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when we think we’re somebody then we really need a need a reality check. And I think that that was a major contribution from the Peace Corps. It was a reality check that I wasn't going to change the world. Actually, that was hard coming home to.

[Assistant] You need to realize that the idealism was.

[User] The idealism was OK, but we're not always everything that we hope that we're going to become. But that's the reality of young adulthood is realizing that we're not going to be everything that we think that we might possibly be, and we're going to have to settle for what we got.

[Assistant] And if there's nothing wrong with that.

[User] No, because once you accept that, you can get on to living life and it's going to be full if you let it be.

[Assistant] Well, Pete, it sounds like you've had quite an interesting life experience.