[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But back in those early days, the photography portions of the mission were not what they are today. There was no Hubble telescope up there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You guys shot a lot of pictures. And you, in particular, took the time to learn how to shoot. Can you tell us about that?

[User] It was interesting because Deke and I—Deke initially had the second orbital mission and I was his backup. And that was changed when Deke had his physical problem. Then he was grounded, and Scott took that mission, so I was Scott’s backup. So Deke and I had talked about getting a good camera. And we looked at the Hasselblad, and I finally got a Hasselblad camera. But before I got it, I talked to Ralph Morse and Carl Mydans of\n\n Life\n\n magazine, Ken Weaver and Louis Marden of\n\n National Geographic\n\n , “What’s the best camera?” “Hasselblad.” “Really? All four of you agree?” These were individual interviews really. “But for this;” “but for that.”\n\n We took all the “but for’s” out and made a perfect Hasselblad at the Cape. That was when Pan Am had the laboratory down there, and Pan Am people made all these modifications. Viktor Hasselblad came out with Hasselblad 500C, which was our version after we had made those changes. We got some good pictures. I think I could have taken better pictures, but I was too busy doing other things. And Gordo, up there for over a day, got some absolutely gorgeous pictures with the Hasselblad he flew.

[Assistant] Pictures that have now gone into the books of history. In retrospect, how would you place Mercury in the overall space program in the scheme of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’ll go back over the seven, there was C C, G G, S S S. I’m the last of the smart S’s. [laughs] That goes on.

[Assistant] Okay. Carry on, tally-ho!

[User] Don’t wipe out one of my better lines. Well what happened, I didn’t know any of the fellows. I met Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] when we were up there for interviews in Washington. We stayed at a Marriott near the Pentagon, and the pool was frozen. We were ice skating. I remember doing that with Al. We got to know each other rather rapidly. We had three Navy, three Air Force, and one “jarhead,” a Marine by the name of Herschel Glenn. We were surprised about John when we first saw John at that Press conference, because we just weren’t prepared for something like that. John had done some international flight—not international but national flight—

[Assistant] Set a few record.

[User] —he’d been on a TV show. We had all set records, but John made lots of fun out of it.

[Assistant] Name That Tune\n\n .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don’t wipe out one of my better lines. Well what happened, I didn’t know any of the fellows. I met Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] when we were up there for interviews in Washington. We stayed at a Marriott near the Pentagon, and the pool was frozen. We were ice skating. I remember doing that with Al. We got to know each other rather rapidly. We had three Navy, three Air Force, and one “jarhead,” a Marine by the name of Herschel Glenn. We were surprised about John when we first saw John at that Press conference, because we just weren’t prepared for something like that. John had done some international flight—not international but national flight—

[Assistant] Set a few record.

[User] —he’d been on a TV show. We had all set records, but John made lots of fun out of it.

[Assistant] Name That Tune\n\n .

[User] Yeah. And so John had the presence in front of a camera and in front of the Press corps we didn’t have. So we learned in a hurry, because we were going to compete. And we seven competed with each other. We\n\n bonded\n\n so closely, we were like brothers. Still are. But sibling rivalry is also part of brotherhood. We had a lot of that.

[Assistant] How would you describe the guys, one-by-one? Just a thumbnail, you know. Not a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —he’d been on a TV show. We had all set records, but John made lots of fun out of it.

[Assistant] Name That Tune\n\n .

[User] Yeah. And so John had the presence in front of a camera and in front of the Press corps we didn’t have. So we learned in a hurry, because we were going to compete. And we seven competed with each other. We\n\n bonded\n\n so closely, we were like brothers. Still are. But sibling rivalry is also part of brotherhood. We had a lot of that.

[Assistant] How would you describe the guys, one-by-one? Just a thumbnail, you know. Not a lot.

[User] Scott I would best describe as being the proponent for the song\n\n Yellow Bir\n\n d, [laughs] because Scott loved music. We got tired of hearing\n\n Yellow Bird\n\n . But Scott was more of the dreamer than the high technician, the hard-nosed test pilot, fighter pilot. Very competent, by the way, but he didn’t portray the role of this hotshot flyboy. Gordo portrayed the role of the hotshot flyboy. He’s a sharp guy. A couple of times he was looked down on by Deke, because he wasn’t a test pilot in flight test as Deke was. Gordo was involved with engineering tests. Then we got to John Glenn, who made it quite clear what he was. He was a Marine. [laughs] And the Marines are different.\n\n We got along with John because he’s really a neat guy. We became very close. John took over some errands we needed to take a look at and worked on them very hard. Worked on the flight control system as well as Deke. Deke always complained about not having rudder pedals. He wanted rudder pedals. We couldn’t have them, so we put yaw in the stick. So we got done with—Gus Grissom is probably the one that really hasn’t been portrayed very well. Gus, a little guy, sharp mind—

[Assistant] Let’s wait till that jet goes by— [aircraft passing]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And so John had the presence in front of a camera and in front of the Press corps we didn’t have. So we learned in a hurry, because we were going to compete. And we seven competed with each other. We\n\n bonded\n\n so closely, we were like brothers. Still are. But sibling rivalry is also part of brotherhood. We had a lot of that.

[Assistant] How would you describe the guys, one-by-one? Just a thumbnail, you know. Not a lot.

[User] Scott I would best describe as being the proponent for the song\n\n Yellow Bir\n\n d, [laughs] because Scott loved music. We got tired of hearing\n\n Yellow Bird\n\n . But Scott was more of the dreamer than the high technician, the hard-nosed test pilot, fighter pilot. Very competent, by the way, but he didn’t portray the role of this hotshot flyboy. Gordo portrayed the role of the hotshot flyboy. He’s a sharp guy. A couple of times he was looked down on by Deke, because he wasn’t a test pilot in flight test as Deke was. Gordo was involved with engineering tests. Then we got to John Glenn, who made it quite clear what he was. He was a Marine. [laughs] And the Marines are different.\n\n We got along with John because he’s really a neat guy. We became very close. John took over some errands we needed to take a look at and worked on them very hard. Worked on the flight control system as well as Deke. Deke always complained about not having rudder pedals. He wanted rudder pedals. We couldn’t have them, so we put yaw in the stick. So we got done with—Gus Grissom is probably the one that really hasn’t been portrayed very well. Gus, a little guy, sharp mind—

[Assistant] Let’s wait till that jet goes by— [aircraft passing]

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and save it for dear old Gus. That’s an important number in the book. Okay: Gus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and save it for dear old Gus. That’s an important number in the book. Okay: Gus.

[User] Gus was an intent person; very intense. And his intent was to get things done right, although Gus could be a lot of fun. We played “gotchas” on each other all the time; tricks, of course. I guess my favorite Gus one was later, when we were trying to do the Gemini vehicle, and we called it “the Gusmobile.” That’s kind of the way Gus was. He asserted himself and he was so intent that it was obvious it was going to be his vehicle. And we called Gemini “the Gusmobile.”\n\n He was trying to fly a vehicle that would come down on a little parachute like a hang glider, and he almost didn’t live through it. We said, “We’re not going to do that.” We all said that in that case, “We’re not going to do that.” He said, “Anybody else have an opinion?” “Nope. That’s our opinion.” That’s what Gus was like. Deke and Gus were very close. They were both Air Force. They both had gone through the same hoops together, I suppose. Gus had had combat in Korea. And I guess those who have had combat look at the others with a little bit less—not reserve but less heroic worship, I suppose. John Glenn had combat. Deke had combat. I had combat. Al and Scott had no combat time.

[Assistant] You’ve forgotten one person in your description.

[User] Oh?

[Assistant] Walter Marty Schirra.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gus was an intent person; very intense. And his intent was to get things done right, although Gus could be a lot of fun. We played “gotchas” on each other all the time; tricks, of course. I guess my favorite Gus one was later, when we were trying to do the Gemini vehicle, and we called it “the Gusmobile.” That’s kind of the way Gus was. He asserted himself and he was so intent that it was obvious it was going to be his vehicle. And we called Gemini “the Gusmobile.”\n\n He was trying to fly a vehicle that would come down on a little parachute like a hang glider, and he almost didn’t live through it. We said, “We’re not going to do that.” We all said that in that case, “We’re not going to do that.” He said, “Anybody else have an opinion?” “Nope. That’s our opinion.” That’s what Gus was like. Deke and Gus were very close. They were both Air Force. They both had gone through the same hoops together, I suppose. Gus had had combat in Korea. And I guess those who have had combat look at the others with a little bit less—not reserve but less heroic worship, I suppose. John Glenn had combat. Deke had combat. I had combat. Al and Scott had no combat time.

[Assistant] You’ve forgotten one person in your description.

[User] Oh?

[Assistant] Walter Marty Schirra.

[User] I told you I had combat.

[Assistant] Yeah, you had combat. But you didn’t describe yourself. How would you describe yourself, Wally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A quick break, yeah?

[Assistant]
Do you want us to take a break?

Yeah, let’s take a quick break.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We’re right at a very critical point in the interview, of course. But Wally’s—you’re putting this together beautifully.

[User] Ah, no problem.

[Assistant] But I don’t need this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We’re right at a very critical point in the interview, of course. But Wally’s—you’re putting this together beautifully.

[User] Ah, no problem.

[Assistant] But I don’t need this.

[User] I’ll just put it right here.

[Assistant]
No. Let’s make sure Wally gets what he needs there. When you’re comfortable, then we can start it.

Oh, okay.

Okay. Now you were a little uncomfortable with the way—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had to be perfect. That was—I was so thrilled, because I was at the Cape recently and I saw Sam Phillips Drive. Sam [Samuel C.] Phillips, then a General, called that mission 101%, which was spacecraft 101, by the way. But that thrilled me no end that Sam saw that what I was trying to do was to make it at least 101%.

[Assistant] The crew that you flew with, did you pick them?

[User] No, I did not pick my crew. Donn and Walt were assigned by Deke. Donn was easy to work with. Walt was very difficult to work with. My wife said (and Walt’s heard me say this, so it’s not out of school), “He’s like a puppy dog. Scratch him behind the ears, and he’ll do anything you want.” When I stopped scratching him behind the ears, it was real hell. [laughs]

[Assistant] After the flight of Apollo 7, did you think that your career would continue within NASA?

[User] Oh no. Prior to the flight of Apollo 7—a lot of people don’t remember that—I announced I was retiring, leaving NASA, and possibly retiring from the Navy. Prior to the flight. So I had that in my little data bank. I hadn’t really committed to retiring from the Navy yet, but I was definitely leaving NASA.

[Assistant] There was another world out there, waiting for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did not pick my crew. Donn and Walt were assigned by Deke. Donn was easy to work with. Walt was very difficult to work with. My wife said (and Walt’s heard me say this, so it’s not out of school), “He’s like a puppy dog. Scratch him behind the ears, and he’ll do anything you want.” When I stopped scratching him behind the ears, it was real hell. [laughs]

[Assistant] After the flight of Apollo 7, did you think that your career would continue within NASA?

[User] Oh no. Prior to the flight of Apollo 7—a lot of people don’t remember that—I announced I was retiring, leaving NASA, and possibly retiring from the Navy. Prior to the flight. So I had that in my little data bank. I hadn’t really committed to retiring from the Navy yet, but I was definitely leaving NASA.

[Assistant] There was another world out there, waiting for you.

[User] Well, I also knew, having almost not had an Apollo flight at all if you go back to that point in time, there was no way I was going to get another Apollo flight. And it turned out no crew commander was to get a second Apollo flight. The only one that broke that rule was Tom Stafford on Apollo-Soyuz. Now others had flown twice on Apollo, but not as a commander. So I knew that my destiny was there; I was gone. And I knew the Space Station—Skylab—would take too long for me to get involved. We had to go through all the lunar landings, all of that; and I’d seen these transitions from Mercury to Gemini, Gemini to Apollo. Those were long, hard, dry spells. I had no idea how long Shuttle would take, although it had been talked about.

[Assistant] All right. I think then this is the time now to go back into Gemini, because we were just finishing up Mercury.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no. Prior to the flight of Apollo 7—a lot of people don’t remember that—I announced I was retiring, leaving NASA, and possibly retiring from the Navy. Prior to the flight. So I had that in my little data bank. I hadn’t really committed to retiring from the Navy yet, but I was definitely leaving NASA.

[Assistant] There was another world out there, waiting for you.

[User] Well, I also knew, having almost not had an Apollo flight at all if you go back to that point in time, there was no way I was going to get another Apollo flight. And it turned out no crew commander was to get a second Apollo flight. The only one that broke that rule was Tom Stafford on Apollo-Soyuz. Now others had flown twice on Apollo, but not as a commander. So I knew that my destiny was there; I was gone. And I knew the Space Station—Skylab—would take too long for me to get involved. We had to go through all the lunar landings, all of that; and I’d seen these transitions from Mercury to Gemini, Gemini to Apollo. Those were long, hard, dry spells. I had no idea how long Shuttle would take, although it had been talked about.

[Assistant] All right. I think then this is the time now to go back into Gemini, because we were just finishing up Mercury.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We deviated to get across this solid story of the Apollo. Let’s go into Gemini just a bit. Let’s first of all talk about the big step up, down (or was it in between?), between Mercury and Gemini? What was the difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We deviated to get across this solid story of the Apollo. Let’s go into Gemini just a bit. Let’s first of all talk about the big step up, down (or was it in between?), between Mercury and Gemini? What was the difference?

[User] I without doubt [would] say Gemini is my favorite flight. Gemini [short i], Gemini [long i], either one; quite correct. I recall Bob Gilruth on an airplane one time, flying commercially somewhere, back before we flew Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i]. I said to Bob, “These women walking up and down the aisle. They’re stewardesses, right? What do you call them in plural? Are they ‘stewardi’ [long i] or are they ‘stewardi’ [short i]?” “They’re hostesses.” Thud! [laughs] So it turned out Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i] is correct. It’s either Arabic or some other language. Latin I guess.

[Assistant] Do you know we in the television media once went to Walt [Walter C.] Williams and we said, “Now we don’t care which way you throw it up, but come down with an honest answer. We have to know whether it’s Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i].”

[User] Yeah. [laughs]

[Assistant] And he said—he thought for a moment and he said, “Gemini [short i].” I said, “Okay, so be it. From this point in, all the television guys will always call it Gemini [short i].” And we did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I without doubt [would] say Gemini is my favorite flight. Gemini [short i], Gemini [long i], either one; quite correct. I recall Bob Gilruth on an airplane one time, flying commercially somewhere, back before we flew Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i]. I said to Bob, “These women walking up and down the aisle. They’re stewardesses, right? What do you call them in plural? Are they ‘stewardi’ [long i] or are they ‘stewardi’ [short i]?” “They’re hostesses.” Thud! [laughs] So it turned out Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i] is correct. It’s either Arabic or some other language. Latin I guess.

[Assistant] Do you know we in the television media once went to Walt [Walter C.] Williams and we said, “Now we don’t care which way you throw it up, but come down with an honest answer. We have to know whether it’s Gemini [short i] or Gemini [long i].”

[User] Yeah. [laughs]

[Assistant] And he said—he thought for a moment and he said, “Gemini [short i].” I said, “Okay, so be it. From this point in, all the television guys will always call it Gemini [short i].” And we did.

[User] I called it Gemini [short i] most of the time.

[Assistant] I know you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. [laughs]

[Assistant] And he said—he thought for a moment and he said, “Gemini [short i].” I said, “Okay, so be it. From this point in, all the television guys will always call it Gemini [short i].” And we did.

[User] I called it Gemini [short i] most of the time.

[Assistant] I know you did.

[User] Gemini [short i] VI, that’s what I called one of the flights.

[Assistant] Well anyway, I’m sorry I interrupted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I called it Gemini [short i] most of the time.

[Assistant] I know you did.

[User] Gemini [short i] VI, that’s what I called one of the flights.

[Assistant] Well anyway, I’m sorry I interrupted.

[User] What has happened in time: Gemini has been forgotten. There were no major stunts like the first man in space or the first man on the Moon or the first woman in space. So as a result, Gemini just fell down the crack. Yet without that mission, we could not have gone to the Moon and back. There were four things Gemini did: (1) [guiding] itself through reentry; it actually changed its pattern to come back into a landing point, which you had to do if you were coming back from the Moon; (2) enduring space for 2 weeks; (3) [taking] a spacesuit outside the spacecraft to do something; and (4) [doing] a rendezvous. I was so thrilled to do the rendezvous mission. That’s why I loved the mission, but—[aircraft passing]

[Assistant] We’ll wait till that jet goes by, because now we’re coming up to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gemini [short i] VI, that’s what I called one of the flights.

[Assistant] Well anyway, I’m sorry I interrupted.

[User] What has happened in time: Gemini has been forgotten. There were no major stunts like the first man in space or the first man on the Moon or the first woman in space. So as a result, Gemini just fell down the crack. Yet without that mission, we could not have gone to the Moon and back. There were four things Gemini did: (1) [guiding] itself through reentry; it actually changed its pattern to come back into a landing point, which you had to do if you were coming back from the Moon; (2) enduring space for 2 weeks; (3) [taking] a spacesuit outside the spacecraft to do something; and (4) [doing] a rendezvous. I was so thrilled to do the rendezvous mission. That’s why I loved the mission, but—[aircraft passing]

[Assistant] We’ll wait till that jet goes by, because now we’re coming up to—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —what we the media loosely labeled “76.” You know, your mission, first of all, as with all spaceflights, there were highlights, there were lowlights, there were moments of great adventure. And one of them you shared by virtue of being a pilot who knew when not to fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What has happened in time: Gemini has been forgotten. There were no major stunts like the first man in space or the first man on the Moon or the first woman in space. So as a result, Gemini just fell down the crack. Yet without that mission, we could not have gone to the Moon and back. There were four things Gemini did: (1) [guiding] itself through reentry; it actually changed its pattern to come back into a landing point, which you had to do if you were coming back from the Moon; (2) enduring space for 2 weeks; (3) [taking] a spacesuit outside the spacecraft to do something; and (4) [doing] a rendezvous. I was so thrilled to do the rendezvous mission. That’s why I loved the mission, but—[aircraft passing]

[Assistant] We’ll wait till that jet goes by, because now we’re coming up to—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —what we the media loosely labeled “76.” You know, your mission, first of all, as with all spaceflights, there were highlights, there were lowlights, there were moments of great adventure. And one of them you shared by virtue of being a pilot who knew when not to fly.

[User] Ah ha-ha.

[Assistant] Would you like to go back over that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, that’s how much time we had to do those kind of things! We didn’t have the Agena to dock with. But all that precise maneuvering with my left hand. Even though I write left-handed, most things I do with my right hand. But now from pitch, roll, and yaw, now we have forward, back, up, down, right, left. And now I have dexterity in both hands, so I was a hell of a good translation man! Again it was little tiny, tiny thrusts. There was a term we used, which you’ll probably cut out of the tape, but I wanted the smallest amount of thrust I could get. I called it “a micro-mouse fart.” [laughs] Bet it will never make it through the editor, but it’s still—

[Assistant] You never can tell. [laughs]

[User] It might make it. [laughs] Well, fart’s not a dirty word anymore at all.

[Assistant] Well, not to the Germans at least.

[User] That’s right.\n\n Ausfahrt\n\n . You know German? Very good. But I wanted something that, if I made a maneuver, where I would come right a little bit, I want to come like this and then stop, and come back a little bit and stop. That’s why the Shuttle can dock with\n\n Mir\n\n today, or dock with the Space Station of the future. You’ve got to have these very slow, minimal attitude changes, where you don’t waste a lot of fuel. And that’s where we developed that technique to perfection. And from then on we did docking without any hesitation at all. All the Gemini flights were successful in docking.

[Assistant] You know, it brings to mind, too: It seems to me I remember some signs being hung out of windows like “Beat Army,” “Beat Navy.” Wasn’t there something like that? Can you remember that for me?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s rather interesting. Just recently, four Gemini astronauts got together in Dayton, Ohio, to induct Jim Lovell into the Hall of Fame. The other three of us had already been inducted. So Tom Stafford and I, who were Gemini VI, Frank Borman and Jim Lovell were there. We were doing these photographs, and the people who were doing the photographs—it was for\n\n Vanity Fair\n\n —wanted to do a Mount Rushmore pose, all heads. It looked like old, old men. At any rate, other pictures were taken. This photographer had asked one of his crewmen to call me before I went back. “Can you think of something that would make the guys laugh?” I said, “Yes, make a big sign that says ‘Beat Army.’” We did hold it up, and Frank Borman fell apart laughing.\n\n But now why did I do that? When we did the rendezvous, knowing we could do it, got within about 2 ft of the other window of the other spacecraft. (We figured you could just put the windows together; you didn’t have to put the noses together.) Frank Borman is a West Point graduate. With him is Jim Lovell, a Naval Academy graduate. With me, although he went in the Air Force, Tom Stafford Naval Academy, and I’m Naval Academy. Naturally I hold up the sign: “Beat Army.” [laughs] Frank Borman topped me, though, darn it, if you’ll remember that. He said, “Look at that sign. It says, ‘Beat Navy.’” The heck it does! [laughs] That’s in a museum at the Naval Academy, I might add, that sign.

[Assistant] The funny thing is we did have some tape with some film of that.

[User] Oh really?

[Assistant] Yeah. There was film of that particular episode.

[User] Oh, I’d like to see that footage.

[Assistant] It’s around somewhere. I don’t quite know where. As a matter of fact, you know, you can straighten something out for us. At that time in Gemini, the thing was being labeled either in Roman numerals or in numbers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh really?

[Assistant] Yeah. There was film of that particular episode.

[User] Oh, I’d like to see that footage.

[Assistant] It’s around somewhere. I don’t quite know where. As a matter of fact, you know, you can straighten something out for us. At that time in Gemini, the thing was being labeled either in Roman numerals or in numbers.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Which was right? The Roman numerals or the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I’d like to see that footage.

[Assistant] It’s around somewhere. I don’t quite know where. As a matter of fact, you know, you can straighten something out for us. At that time in Gemini, the thing was being labeled either in Roman numerals or in numbers.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Which was right? The Roman numerals or the—

[User] We used both. I think my patch has a “6” like that from your viewpoint. But also the “VI.”

[Assistant] Nobody ever really quite figured that out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Which was right? The Roman numerals or the—

[User] We used both. I think my patch has a “6” like that from your viewpoint. But also the “VI.”

[Assistant] Nobody ever really quite figured that out.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or straightened it out, let’s put it that way. Also let’s see. Houston took over Mission Control with Gemini. You were breaking in a whole new thing. Gemini IV was .actually the first flight out of Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used both. I think my patch has a “6” like that from your viewpoint. But also the “VI.”

[Assistant] Nobody ever really quite figured that out.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or straightened it out, let’s put it that way. Also let’s see. Houston took over Mission Control with Gemini. You were breaking in a whole new thing. Gemini IV was .actually the first flight out of Houston.

[User] Actually Jim [James A.] McDivitt and Ed White were the last to use that Mission Control Center at the Cape. Oddly enough, by the way, to put this on camera: I just got some correspondence from a guy (Troy Lufkin, I think his name was, or Ledkin) who’s trying to save Mission Control at the Cape, which is on Air Force land but a NASA building. And NASA has gone along with the idea of moving it over to Kennedy Space Center, which then takes an historical site, breaks it down, and moves it to someplace else. I think that’s wrong; really wrong.

[Assistant] You think it ought to stay where it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or straightened it out, let’s put it that way. Also let’s see. Houston took over Mission Control with Gemini. You were breaking in a whole new thing. Gemini IV was .actually the first flight out of Houston.

[User] Actually Jim [James A.] McDivitt and Ed White were the last to use that Mission Control Center at the Cape. Oddly enough, by the way, to put this on camera: I just got some correspondence from a guy (Troy Lufkin, I think his name was, or Ledkin) who’s trying to save Mission Control at the Cape, which is on Air Force land but a NASA building. And NASA has gone along with the idea of moving it over to Kennedy Space Center, which then takes an historical site, breaks it down, and moves it to someplace else. I think that’s wrong; really wrong.

[Assistant] You think it ought to stay where it is.

[User] I can vividly recall pictures—I was just in there, oh, less than—during John Glenn’s prep period, I went through that same Mission Control. Sat at the same console. I recall talking to Gordo from there. I can recall Al Shepard talking to John Glenn from there, with Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft in back of us. Chris Kraft wouldn’t dare come on the line unless the Capcom gave him permission, if you remember that? [laughs] But that was the way it was. We were all buddies. Chris is a little younger than I. I didn’t realize it. I always thought he was older than I. We’re all the same age.

[Assistant] He just acted older.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually Jim [James A.] McDivitt and Ed White were the last to use that Mission Control Center at the Cape. Oddly enough, by the way, to put this on camera: I just got some correspondence from a guy (Troy Lufkin, I think his name was, or Ledkin) who’s trying to save Mission Control at the Cape, which is on Air Force land but a NASA building. And NASA has gone along with the idea of moving it over to Kennedy Space Center, which then takes an historical site, breaks it down, and moves it to someplace else. I think that’s wrong; really wrong.

[Assistant] You think it ought to stay where it is.

[User] I can vividly recall pictures—I was just in there, oh, less than—during John Glenn’s prep period, I went through that same Mission Control. Sat at the same console. I recall talking to Gordo from there. I can recall Al Shepard talking to John Glenn from there, with Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft in back of us. Chris Kraft wouldn’t dare come on the line unless the Capcom gave him permission, if you remember that? [laughs] But that was the way it was. We were all buddies. Chris is a little younger than I. I didn’t realize it. I always thought he was older than I. We’re all the same age.

[Assistant] He just acted older.

[User] Well, he did. Very well.

[Assistant] He was the boss.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can vividly recall pictures—I was just in there, oh, less than—during John Glenn’s prep period, I went through that same Mission Control. Sat at the same console. I recall talking to Gordo from there. I can recall Al Shepard talking to John Glenn from there, with Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft in back of us. Chris Kraft wouldn’t dare come on the line unless the Capcom gave him permission, if you remember that? [laughs] But that was the way it was. We were all buddies. Chris is a little younger than I. I didn’t realize it. I always thought he was older than I. We’re all the same age.

[Assistant] He just acted older.

[User] Well, he did. Very well.

[Assistant] He was the boss.

[User] Yeah. He was the boss of the flight directors, I know that.

[Assistant] That’s it. [laughs] Do you have any memories of other Gemini flights? Let’s say, for instance, Gemini VIII. You were—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I used the word earlier: commitment. I made a commitment to doing the things I could do within the timeframe I was willing to do it, which was almost 10 years to the day—April to July really. I had 10 years of doing what I thought was appropriate to get man into space, to make man perform in space, and make the prelude to going to the Moon and back. All those things were done. I thought I had a good time.

[Assistant] Well, there were some things in there that I’m sure you look back on and say, “That was a key to the space program. I really did something there,” as compared to just doing the job that you had to do.

[User] I would say I enjoyed Gemini. Fully. I\n\n did\n\n Apollo. I was amazed, frankly, when John Glenn, who had only 5 hours in space, was anxious to go up there for—what was it?—8.3 days or 9.3 days. I was\n\n bored to tears\n\n up there for 11 days. I mean, bored! Fighter pilots like to fly for an hour, an hour-and-a-half, come back, and do something else. Maybe two flights a day, three flights, then you go to the bar. Unless you’re going to fly it the next day, then you don’t go to the bar. And to sit up there for 11 days, oh, that was so bad! Do you remember those little bands you’d wear around your wristwatch for the calendar? I have that band in a plastic block with 8 of the 11 days scratched off, like a prisoner. That plastic block and the band are in the Smithsonian, in the Air & Space Museum.

[Assistant] Are you saying you really wouldn’t like to fly on the Space Shuttle with the 9-, 10-day missions that they fly?

[User] I would not at all be interested. I’d love to land the Shuttle. Everything else: Been there, done that, even have a shirt! [laughs]

[Assistant] Well the Shuttle, of course, was the next generation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To do work. Sure. I think it would be a crime to have a pilot go up there and sit around for months at a time. In fact, you haven’t seen many do that, if you look at it. And most of those who have been up there for a long time left NASA in a hurry, I’ve noticed that, too. But the concept of the Space Station is important if we’re going to go all the way to Mars and back. We’re talking at least 2 years and maybe 3 for the total mission. So you’ve got to select people who are willing to stay in that dumb environment for that long. You can’t eat out. [chuckles] And the entertainment is pretty limited. So I would say you’d have to be a totally different kind of person than a hotshot fighter pilot. That’s essentially what I thought I am.

[Assistant] If you could start all over again, would you like to command a flight to Mars?

[User] No way! No, no.

[Assistant] Too long.

[User] It’s too long. By the way, even to command a Shuttle flight in my mind would be too long. To\n\n command\n\n it, I would want at least 2 years to be properly prepared to fly that mission and command the mission.

[Assistant] Now that’s a whole different ballgame, flying that spacecraft, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No way! No, no.

[Assistant] Too long.

[User] It’s too long. By the way, even to command a Shuttle flight in my mind would be too long. To\n\n command\n\n it, I would want at least 2 years to be properly prepared to fly that mission and command the mission.

[Assistant] Now that’s a whole different ballgame, flying that spacecraft, isn’t it?

[User] It is. I flew the simulator in Houston one time and crashed on the landings, and, “Oh ho ho, I’d better practice this!” And of course, this was the first time. I had no cues or anything like this. I said, “This is bad.” The young astronaut who was checking me out laughs then, “I could have helped a little bit there, Wally.” I said, “I know, I know, I know.” You know, but when you can walk away from a landing you call it a good landing. I’m not sure I could have walked away from that one. [laughs]

[Assistant] It’s an interesting point of view.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s too long. By the way, even to command a Shuttle flight in my mind would be too long. To\n\n command\n\n it, I would want at least 2 years to be properly prepared to fly that mission and command the mission.

[Assistant] Now that’s a whole different ballgame, flying that spacecraft, isn’t it?

[User] It is. I flew the simulator in Houston one time and crashed on the landings, and, “Oh ho ho, I’d better practice this!” And of course, this was the first time. I had no cues or anything like this. I said, “This is bad.” The young astronaut who was checking me out laughs then, “I could have helped a little bit there, Wally.” I said, “I know, I know, I know.” You know, but when you can walk away from a landing you call it a good landing. I’m not sure I could have walked away from that one. [laughs]

[Assistant] It’s an interesting point of view.

[User] But it taught me a lesson, though. You’ve got to spend a lot of time, as I did in the simulators, to fly a vehicle safely under any possible circumstance that might come up. We trained out fear. We did not want any surprises at all. I almost had a semantic lecture I start out with. We can’t afford the luxury of fear. Because if you have fear, you’re out of control. If you’re out of control, you’re going to die. So you have to avoid surprises, because surprises conjure up fear. Or they make you afraid, we’ll say. If you go beyond all that, all I can afford is a little bit of apprehension. Not a whole bunch of apprehension either.

[Assistant] Interesting progression from a pilot’s point of view. I’m looking now at Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and on into Space Shuttle. From a pilot’s point of view, how would you size up, step-by-step, that progression?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. I flew the simulator in Houston one time and crashed on the landings, and, “Oh ho ho, I’d better practice this!” And of course, this was the first time. I had no cues or anything like this. I said, “This is bad.” The young astronaut who was checking me out laughs then, “I could have helped a little bit there, Wally.” I said, “I know, I know, I know.” You know, but when you can walk away from a landing you call it a good landing. I’m not sure I could have walked away from that one. [laughs]

[Assistant] It’s an interesting point of view.

[User] But it taught me a lesson, though. You’ve got to spend a lot of time, as I did in the simulators, to fly a vehicle safely under any possible circumstance that might come up. We trained out fear. We did not want any surprises at all. I almost had a semantic lecture I start out with. We can’t afford the luxury of fear. Because if you have fear, you’re out of control. If you’re out of control, you’re going to die. So you have to avoid surprises, because surprises conjure up fear. Or they make you afraid, we’ll say. If you go beyond all that, all I can afford is a little bit of apprehension. Not a whole bunch of apprehension either.

[Assistant] Interesting progression from a pilot’s point of view. I’m looking now at Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and on into Space Shuttle. From a pilot’s point of view, how would you size up, step-by-step, that progression?

[User] Everything was the same, other than practicing that landing. And they practice that with, I think, it was a G-2. If they still use that Gulfstream-2 with gear flaps and speed brakes and all those thruster reverses to get that unbelievable glide slope. That sort of power-off landing.

[Assistant] That’s the Shuttle, of course.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it taught me a lesson, though. You’ve got to spend a lot of time, as I did in the simulators, to fly a vehicle safely under any possible circumstance that might come up. We trained out fear. We did not want any surprises at all. I almost had a semantic lecture I start out with. We can’t afford the luxury of fear. Because if you have fear, you’re out of control. If you’re out of control, you’re going to die. So you have to avoid surprises, because surprises conjure up fear. Or they make you afraid, we’ll say. If you go beyond all that, all I can afford is a little bit of apprehension. Not a whole bunch of apprehension either.

[Assistant] Interesting progression from a pilot’s point of view. I’m looking now at Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and on into Space Shuttle. From a pilot’s point of view, how would you size up, step-by-step, that progression?

[User] Everything was the same, other than practicing that landing. And they practice that with, I think, it was a G-2. If they still use that Gulfstream-2 with gear flaps and speed brakes and all those thruster reverses to get that unbelievable glide slope. That sort of power-off landing.

[Assistant] That’s the Shuttle, of course.

[User] The Shuttle.

[Assistant] Yeah. I’m looking now at the progression from Mercury to Gemini to Apollo in terms of the pilot—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything was the same, other than practicing that landing. And they practice that with, I think, it was a G-2. If they still use that Gulfstream-2 with gear flaps and speed brakes and all those thruster reverses to get that unbelievable glide slope. That sort of power-off landing.

[Assistant] That’s the Shuttle, of course.

[User] The Shuttle.

[Assistant] Yeah. I’m looking now at the progression from Mercury to Gemini to Apollo in terms of the pilot—

[User] Oh, oh.

[Assistant] —what he had to do to fly the missions—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Shuttle.

[Assistant] Yeah. I’m looking now at the progression from Mercury to Gemini to Apollo in terms of the pilot—

[User] Oh, oh.

[Assistant] —what he had to do to fly the missions—

[User] I’m sorry.

[Assistant] —and then moving on to the Shuttle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the whole point is, this is a very difficult task. This is back to that same suit I was involved in. And the worst sound you could ever hear is “Sssss.” That could ruin your whole day. Now these guys and gals, I guess they’ll be working on some pretty complicated equipment, and it’s very possible they could puncture their suit. And that would probably bring a lot of media attention, I’ll say that. But they’re going to be working awfully hard to put all of these various pieces together, making all of these complexes. We’re building something locally in San Diego called Lego™ Land; this is Lego™ mile! It’s going to be a big one.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, as you look at the construction phases, it will be surprising indeed if there aren’t some moments of high drama in putting together that Space Station. With 45 missions at least.

[User] It’s awfully hard to comprehend. Initially when we first started talking seriously about Shuttle, each Shuttle was supposed to have 100 flights. We have not had 100 flights total at this point in time. We’re approaching it; 95. But that was a higher number. I think there’s a 93 coming. But we’re getting close to 100 flights, which is the equivalent of one Shuttle. So we’ve got a lot more flights to go, allegedly, although I’m not sure the Shuttle will last that long.

[Assistant] Well, the Shuttle will be a tug of sorts.

[User] It was supposed to have been.

[Assistant] There will be replacements, will there not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For Shuttle?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] On the drawing-board there are some concepts for replacements for Shuttle. I think they call it the X-33 or something like that.

[Assistant] 38.

[User] Is it the 38?

[Assistant] It’s the 38.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the drawing-board there are some concepts for replacements for Shuttle. I think they call it the X-33 or something like that.

[Assistant] 38.

[User] Is it the 38?

[Assistant] It’s the 38.

[User] 38? 33?

[Assistant]
38 is the crewed one.

That’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 38? 33?

[Assistant]
38 is the crewed one.

That’s right.

[User] Oh, 38 is the flying one. Oddly enough, now do you really want me to get me excited about flying that?

[Assistant] Yeah!

[User] You are a passenger like Glenn was on that Shuttle flight. There are no flight controls for the crew to fly the 38. It’s a back-to-chimp mode again, which really impressed the hell out of it. But why? You don’t need a pilot to do all those hotshot flyboy things. You’re going to have technicians, scientists, medical people. This is what the Space Station is all about.

[Assistant] A transfer vehicle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, 38 is the flying one. Oddly enough, now do you really want me to get me excited about flying that?

[Assistant] Yeah!

[User] You are a passenger like Glenn was on that Shuttle flight. There are no flight controls for the crew to fly the 38. It’s a back-to-chimp mode again, which really impressed the hell out of it. But why? You don’t need a pilot to do all those hotshot flyboy things. You’re going to have technicians, scientists, medical people. This is what the Space Station is all about.

[Assistant] A transfer vehicle.

[User] It’s a transfer vehicle, which is what Soyuz has always been. Soyuz is not flown by the cosmonauts. So maybe they were smarter than we were. But we had to do those tasks because we didn’t have automated systems that could land on the Moon and get back again at that time. Now we have.

[Assistant] Do you think we should go back to the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You are a passenger like Glenn was on that Shuttle flight. There are no flight controls for the crew to fly the 38. It’s a back-to-chimp mode again, which really impressed the hell out of it. But why? You don’t need a pilot to do all those hotshot flyboy things. You’re going to have technicians, scientists, medical people. This is what the Space Station is all about.

[Assistant] A transfer vehicle.

[User] It’s a transfer vehicle, which is what Soyuz has always been. Soyuz is not flown by the cosmonauts. So maybe they were smarter than we were. But we had to do those tasks because we didn’t have automated systems that could land on the Moon and get back again at that time. Now we have.

[Assistant] Do you think we should go back to the Moon?

[User] I was told that half of the lunar samples that were brought back from the Moon are in storage in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, waiting for newer equipment to look at it. I also reminisce about that great man [Wernher] von Braun, who was a dear friend of ours. He entertained the seven of us at his home shortly after we were selected. Showed us engineering drawings of how to go into space that were used in their preliminary studies back in the time frame of World War Two. That’s how far ahead he was. Now Wernher wasn’t too good on spacecraft, but he was sure good on boosters. But he did say something about the Moon I thought was really prophetic. “Whatever you bring back from the Moon, whatever piece of material you bring back, if you compare it to investment-grade diamonds, which is worth $40,000 a carat, it’s not worth it. But the knowledge is.” That’s a very good statement.

[Assistant] Well, Wally, we’ve pretty well covered all the bases I had in mind. Is there anything else that you’d like to tuck into this interview? Because right now’s a grand chance to put one down for posterity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a transfer vehicle, which is what Soyuz has always been. Soyuz is not flown by the cosmonauts. So maybe they were smarter than we were. But we had to do those tasks because we didn’t have automated systems that could land on the Moon and get back again at that time. Now we have.

[Assistant] Do you think we should go back to the Moon?

[User] I was told that half of the lunar samples that were brought back from the Moon are in storage in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, waiting for newer equipment to look at it. I also reminisce about that great man [Wernher] von Braun, who was a dear friend of ours. He entertained the seven of us at his home shortly after we were selected. Showed us engineering drawings of how to go into space that were used in their preliminary studies back in the time frame of World War Two. That’s how far ahead he was. Now Wernher wasn’t too good on spacecraft, but he was sure good on boosters. But he did say something about the Moon I thought was really prophetic. “Whatever you bring back from the Moon, whatever piece of material you bring back, if you compare it to investment-grade diamonds, which is worth $40,000 a carat, it’s not worth it. But the knowledge is.” That’s a very good statement.

[Assistant] Well, Wally, we’ve pretty well covered all the bases I had in mind. Is there anything else that you’d like to tuck into this interview? Because right now’s a grand chance to put one down for posterity.

[User] Talking about Wernher von Braun, you’ve really got to have this one on film. Whenever we went to an event where maybe 10 to 100 people were and Wernher von Braun was there, Wernher would say, “Wally, tell that cosmonaut story.” “\n\n Ja\n\n , Wernher, I tell the story.”

[Assistant] [aircraft passing] Well, you’ll tell the story after the jet goes by.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One of my proud moments was swearing in my son at M.I.T. into the Navy, him having graduated from Tufts on an ROTC scholarship. But he’s since left the Navy. He’s not in the Navy anymore, but that’s okay.

[Assistant] I think that’s interesting how you pointed out that you didn’t actually go on with the program because you didn’t want to give two years, but you ended up—

[User] Didn’t want to give four years.

[Assistant] Four years. But you ended up doing a whole career with the Navy afterwards.

[User] It is, some things happen that are ironic in retrospect.

[Assistant] At the time that you were interested in becoming a naval aviator, had you been looking at the Apollo astronauts and thinking this might be a possibility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn’t want to give four years.

[Assistant] Four years. But you ended up doing a whole career with the Navy afterwards.

[User] It is, some things happen that are ironic in retrospect.

[Assistant] At the time that you were interested in becoming a naval aviator, had you been looking at the Apollo astronauts and thinking this might be a possibility?

[User] Well, the timing is such that the word Apollo didn’t even exist in terms of spaceflight when I was thinking about becoming a naval aviator. If you recall, Alan [B.] Shepard’s first flight was in 1961, and that was my junior year in college, but I was fascinated by the Mercury Program and, of course, later, Gemini and Apollo.\n\n Even before I became an aviator, while I was at Monterey, I had read that NASA was recruiting scientists to become astronauts, and I wrote a letter to NASA saying, “I’m in graduate school. You could tailor my education however you saw fit to optimize my benefit to the program, and I’d be very interested in becoming an astronaut.”\n\n I got a letter back saying, “Thank you very much for your interest. Don’t call us. We’ll call you.” That was in early ’65, I think, so it was twelve years later that I was accepted into the astronaut program.

[Assistant] How did you find out that they were going to be selecting Space Shuttle astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a concern for all of us, and you could see from the onboard TV cameras, these tiles missing on the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] pods, the shoulder pods on the back of the tail. You just wait for the guys to do the thermal analysis and say, well, that may or may not be a problem. But then, of course, you say, well, if those fell off, how do we know some of them haven’t come off the bottom? And there was no—well, I don’t think there was, at that time, any way to verify that. So it was tense.

[Assistant] And then you moved on to be a support crew member for STS-2. What was that like?

[User] STS-2. That was still the same. It was just doing the same sorts of things. I was entry CapCom by myself. Joe Allen was going to train for STS-5. So it was just more of the same. I really enjoyed working with Crip and John and Joe. Joe and Dick were just fun to be with. They had a great sense of humor. They were always looking for ways to have fun. They were great to work for.\n\n So that mission launched when? Two. STS-2.

[Assistant] I don’t have the exact dates.

[User] STS-1 was April of ’81, so STS-2, I presume, was late ’81, early ’82. So it was right about then that they started naming additional crews, and I was on the list for STS-7 and Crip was the commander, so it was clear that he was happy with what I’d done with him as support crew. That was a great day. It was wonderful.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, George, I think—George probably called each one of us separately and said, “Can you come over to my office in Building One?” I don’t have a distinct memory of that conversation, so all I remember is that Crip said, “Hey, let’s go over to—,” I wish I could remember the name of the bar—“and have a beer.”

[Assistant] Outpost?

[User] No, it wasn’t the Outpost then. It was on the other side of the street.

[Assistant] Singing Wheel?

[User] No. It doesn’t matter. So Crip and Sally [K. Ride] and John [M. Fabian] and I went over there and celebrated and said, “Okay, now we’ve got something we can train for.” Yes, that was great. I was fortunate that I was early on in the selection, both to be co-pilot and commander among my compatriots. I know I’ve heard a lot of grousing about the method in which selection took place; it wasn’t fair and so on. I’ve got no complaints.

[Assistant] You were actually the first pilot from your class to be selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn’t the Outpost then. It was on the other side of the street.

[Assistant] Singing Wheel?

[User] No. It doesn’t matter. So Crip and Sally [K. Ride] and John [M. Fabian] and I went over there and celebrated and said, “Okay, now we’ve got something we can train for.” Yes, that was great. I was fortunate that I was early on in the selection, both to be co-pilot and commander among my compatriots. I know I’ve heard a lot of grousing about the method in which selection took place; it wasn’t fair and so on. I’ve got no complaints.

[Assistant] You were actually the first pilot from your class to be selected.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] This was actually the first flight of an American woman in space. How did that affect your crew training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Would you like to take a break for a minute?

[User] Sure.\n\n [Tape change]

[Assistant] While you’re talking about STS 51-A, I had a couple of questions for you.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Was there a point when you looked at the goals or objectives for this mission and thought perhaps it was too risky for you and the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.\n\n [Tape change]

[Assistant] While you’re talking about STS 51-A, I had a couple of questions for you.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Was there a point when you looked at the goals or objectives for this mission and thought perhaps it was too risky for you and the crew?

[User] I don’t ever remember thinking it was too risky for us physically, threat-to-life kind of risk. I always thought it was risky in terms of being able to pull it off. And the insurance community, there were two prime players; one, a Lloyd’s [of London] underwriter named Stephen Merrett; the other one, a U.S. underwriter named James Barrett. James Barrett founded this company [AXA Space]. That’s how I happen to be here.\n\n But Jim came down and visited Johnson Space Center and we offered to take him through the simulators and show him what we were working on. I remember at one point he said, “Nothing that we are asking you to do is worth compromising your safety,” which doesn’t need to be said, but it was nice to hear him say that. And we never thought that we were really—or I never thought. It would be good to ask, if you haven’t already, to ask Joe Allen or Dale Gardner as EVA crew members if they felt that they were—they were certainly doing something riskier than I was doing, because they were going outside and they were going untethered on the MMU, each of them, Joe for the first one and Dale for the second one.\n\n I don’t remember having a fear of failure, but I remember being very upset at this press release that I’ve already talked about, because up until that point, I thought it was very clear that we were doing something that had a fair amount of mission risk to it.

[Assistant] Can you compare and contrast the public interest in this mission versus the interest in your first mission? Do you have a sense of the differences or the similarities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The records are stored at Archives II right now, and the Trump Library does have a website. I think it's Trumplibrary.gov, and the public, just like any other Presidential Library, can find out information about the administration, the holdings, and all of that on the website and contact the library staff that way.

[Assistant] Okay, I see. Let's see here . . . One other thing I wanted to ask about was the move of classified records from the downtown Archives to Archives II. Were you involved in that process?

[User] A little bit. Yes, yes. So, for the move of the Trump records from downtown to Archives II . . . the military did most of the physical labor of building the pallets. But I was there as a national security clearance holder to provide oversight escort for that. So, it's weird, because you're just standing there while people are doing this work, but you have to stand there and have eyes on—not that they're going to open a box, but just in case. So, yes. And part of my responsibilities was to be the Information Security Personnel Manager, ISPM, so I was responsible for the management of all the SCIFs, the secure vaults for our office, as well as making sure that everyone who has a security clearance had checked all their boxes about notifying about foreign travel, taking training, all of that. And so, in this wonderful role [LAUGHS], I was responsible for all the combinations and just accessing all those spaces. And so that was one of the ways I contributed was just managing that.

[Assistant] Mhm. Okay. Well, that's still a big job to take on. So, let's see here . . . You left NARA. Was that in December of 2023?

[User] Yes. I think, because my first day with the Civil Rights Cold Case Records Review Board was December 2nd. So, I would say the end of November . . . was my last day with NARA.

[Assistant] Okay. And so how many years had you worked at NARA when you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit. Yes, yes. So, for the move of the Trump records from downtown to Archives II . . . the military did most of the physical labor of building the pallets. But I was there as a national security clearance holder to provide oversight escort for that. So, it's weird, because you're just standing there while people are doing this work, but you have to stand there and have eyes on—not that they're going to open a box, but just in case. So, yes. And part of my responsibilities was to be the Information Security Personnel Manager, ISPM, so I was responsible for the management of all the SCIFs, the secure vaults for our office, as well as making sure that everyone who has a security clearance had checked all their boxes about notifying about foreign travel, taking training, all of that. And so, in this wonderful role [LAUGHS], I was responsible for all the combinations and just accessing all those spaces. And so that was one of the ways I contributed was just managing that.

[Assistant] Mhm. Okay. Well, that's still a big job to take on. So, let's see here . . . You left NARA. Was that in December of 2023?

[User] Yes. I think, because my first day with the Civil Rights Cold Case Records Review Board was December 2nd. So, I would say the end of November . . . was my last day with NARA.

[Assistant] Okay. And so how many years had you worked at NARA when you left?

[User] Oh gosh, let me think. So full time, I started March 2002. So, it was 21, almost 22 years. I like to say I started when I was [CROSS-TALKING], but you know. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Mhm. Wow! So, did they do anything—your team members? Did they do anything for you when you left NARA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people. Yeah. . . They really symbolize public service. So, I miss all of them. But the good thing is I still get to see them. In some ways, I feel like I've seen some of my colleagues [LAUGHS] more now that I've left than before, because the ones that I was not working with day to day, they've made sure to, like, "Let's go to dinner! Let's go to brunch!" We'll just check in and say, "How are you doing?" So . . . I miss the people. And I want to say I miss the records. But it's more than the records. I miss that magic moment of connecting a request or a member of the public, whoever, with the record that they wanted or the record that they didn't know they wanted, but they actually needed. Like that, I miss that moment.

[Assistant] We've covered a lot in this time. Is there anything else that you want to mention that we haven't talked about yet?

[User] Oh, gosh. I could talk about it forever. More than anything, I just so appreciate my time at NARA. I'm very much the person I am today because I worked at NARA.

[Assistant] Mhm. Do you see yourself ever coming back?

[User] [LAUGHS] Maybe. Maybe. I mean, the job that I'm in is a term-appointment, so I will be looking for a job at some point in the future. I mean, the good thing about an organization that's growing and thriving [WIPES TEARS] is that it grows and thrives. So, I know if I come back to NARA, it's not going to be the NARA I left. But it will still have great people and a great mission. So . . . I would consider it.

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] Well, I think all of your former teammates are going to be listening to this then and holding you to it, so . . . [LAUGHS]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh. I could talk about it forever. More than anything, I just so appreciate my time at NARA. I'm very much the person I am today because I worked at NARA.

[Assistant] Mhm. Do you see yourself ever coming back?

[User] [LAUGHS] Maybe. Maybe. I mean, the job that I'm in is a term-appointment, so I will be looking for a job at some point in the future. I mean, the good thing about an organization that's growing and thriving [WIPES TEARS] is that it grows and thrives. So, I know if I come back to NARA, it's not going to be the NARA I left. But it will still have great people and a great mission. So . . . I would consider it.

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] Well, I think all of your former teammates are going to be listening to this then and holding you to it, so . . . [LAUGHS]

[User] Oh my gosh! I'm like, "Did I mention all the names I need to mention?" I mean, they're just so many people I've worked with, and I will just throw in this joke. I never thought in my wildest dreams I would have gotten to meet the people I've gotten to meet and sit in so many meetings with so many lawyers. And I say that specifically for Gary M. Stern [LAUGHS] and for Hannah Bergman, because I always was like, [WHISPERING] "Why are there so many lawyers on this call?" It's really a blessing to know that the career I had is beyond the imaginings that I had for it.

[Assistant] Mhm. Right. From when you first started out and, you know, graduating from college and then to all the experiences that you had while you were working here, just amazing. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t. A very, very low level; sometimes you did. Principally, when you have a vehicle accident like this, it falls on the shoulders of the Program Manager and the Administrator and the other higher-level people than Center management to talk to the press. So, no, I didn’t have much interaction with the press on\n\n Columbia\n\n , like I did on\n\n Challenger\n\n , being the Lead Flight Director.\n\n We may have talked about this. I don’t remember whether it’s in the previous sessions or not, but I got so tired of being bushwhacked by the press, going from one building to another after the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident that I completely changed my appearance overnight so they didn’t know who I was. I shaved off a beard I’d had for fifteen years and cut my hair real short, and they didn’t find me for about four weeks.

[Assistant] You were incognito. [Laughs]

[User] Well, you know, it’s not that the press is bad. It’s just that they’re always in a press for information, and oftentimes in a time of tragedy it’s information they don’t need to know, and neither does anybody else. It gets quite annoying.

[Assistant] I can imagine so. Did you travel to East Texas?

[User] I did, several times. I went up early on to survey the debris area; went twice with Beak. We went multiple times. For several weeks we were up there once a week just to interact with the team and find out what they needed and let them know that we really cared and to take people from Washington [D.C.] up there so they—you know, just to help with those logistics. So I went a number of times. Flew on the helicopters multiple times just looking at the debris field early on before we even started picking it up, and then I spent a lot of time down at the Cape, where we were reassembling all the pieces on the floor of a hangar down there.

[Assistant] What were your impressions of the recovery effort going on in East Texas and the different agencies all working together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I still get to fly model airplanes. Part of the deal was he took Friday afternoons off always to go play golf. I come in late on Friday mornings, because I fly every Friday morning if the weather is good.

[Assistant] It’s a good deal.

[User] It’s a good deal.

[Assistant] A good job. Well, as I think we had mentioned before the interview, this is a week for NASA of a lot of remembrances, for Apollo 1, for\n\n Challenger\n\n , and for\n\n Columbia\n\n . In 2004 the Mission Control Center team held a special plaque ceremony for all three crews, and you were asked to place the one for STS 51-L, of course, the\n\n Challenger\n\n . If you would, just for a second tell us about that ceremony.

[User] Well, it was one of those things that we felt it was time to hang the\n\n Challenger\n\n plaque in the Control Center for Flight Controllers to always remember that, just like on Apollo 1 and just like on Apollo 13, things can go horribly wrong, and you become accountable right now. Because I was the Lead Flight Director and had tried to get this done for quite some time, I was asked to hang the\n\n Challenger\n\n plaque. It was a very emotional thing for me, and unfortunately, it was just before we lost\n\n Columbia\n\n . So, you seem to relearn things again and again and again, and what you learn is space flight is unforgiving.

[Assistant] Well, you’ve also worked over the years for a number of different Flight Directors and Center Directors, and they all had different management styles, as we’ve talked about through these sessions. [Stone laughs.] But do you have any other thoughts on some of the different people and how maybe their styles influenced your management style in what you’re doing now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it sure brought a lot of people here. When I first came here, there weren’t many people. There were lots of wilderness areas around here. I hunted deer legally where Bay Oaks [subdivision] and places are years ago in the late sixties before Bay Area Boulevard was opened to the public. It was built, but it didn’t go all the way to Red Bluff [Road]. It was blocked off. One of my friends was a highway patrolman, and he got one of his buddies, and they parked a car at one end and parked a car at the other end and had the road blocked off and let me drive my racecar up and down Bay Area Boulevard at about 140 miles an hour.\n\n So NASA has changed the area, and it’s interesting, over the years. This area has just now in the last seven over eight years has become more diversified in different economic groups living in the area. In the sixties all of these apartment complexes had professionals that worked at NASA or worked for the oil companies, and it was kind of an artificial world that NASA created out here, where the most uneducated person you knew only had a college degree. Almost, it was that sort of thing. So it made for a different environment that has slowly but surely become more like the rest of the world as all of the population has moved out this way. But NASA obviously had a huge impact on the area.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about you wanted to mention before we go?

[User] I can’t think of anything. I’ll probably think of forty or fifty things later.

[Assistant] Well, we can always add them, or we can do another session.

[User] But this has been very enjoyable for me. I hope I didn’t spin too many tales.

[Assistant] No, not at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t think of anything. I’ll probably think of forty or fifty things later.

[Assistant] Well, we can always add them, or we can do another session.

[User] But this has been very enjoyable for me. I hope I didn’t spin too many tales.

[Assistant] No, not at all.

[User] I’m more of a storyteller than I am an interviewer.

[Assistant] Well, it’s amazing how much information can come out of those stories. But we appreciate you coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, never. We never had, even in real time. We had one case where somebody got really ill, and after launch in the first phase you stay on and you do the first several orbits. I’m sure it was nerves. But that was the only case where I know of anybody that the backup had to help him get through that first phase.\n\n But the rest of the time usually you simulated enough that the Flight Directors knew who to put on different missions, and they would have their big caucus and decide who was going to team on the next flight and who the backups would be and that sort of thing. So you always had backups in case you—you could always have an automobile accident or something and lose people.\n\n But we never had attrition of any significance in the trench, for sure; in fact, any of the flight control teams. I never remember much. The only time you ever had a problem is if somebody got sick, usually. Usually you do enough sims [simulations] that things like this case that I told you about wouldn’t happen. That was the only glitch that I recall that was kind of a flight control glitch. I’m sure there were lots of others, but that was the one I remember.

[Assistant] And you got good data out of it.

[User] Yes. Oh, we did. We got really good data. Nobody was concerned. I think I have copies of all my flight control postflight reports of what happened during the mission and all that stuff. I’ve still got all those. I don’t know that those would be useful to anybody. They must be in the archives somewhere.

[Assistant] Maybe.

[User] But they aren’t easy to find. I went one time and tried to do some research on one of the missions to be sure which mission some things happened, and I couldn’t find anything in the history files about that. So I don’t know that people—they were in the record. You always had files. You had to turn it in, so it went somewhere.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll ask about that and see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, we did. We got really good data. Nobody was concerned. I think I have copies of all my flight control postflight reports of what happened during the mission and all that stuff. I’ve still got all those. I don’t know that those would be useful to anybody. They must be in the archives somewhere.

[Assistant] Maybe.

[User] But they aren’t easy to find. I went one time and tried to do some research on one of the missions to be sure which mission some things happened, and I couldn’t find anything in the history files about that. So I don’t know that people—they were in the record. You always had files. You had to turn it in, so it went somewhere.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll ask about that and see.

[User] If they’re interested, I think I still have some of the ones for the guidance position, anyway.

[Assistant] That would be great. But while the unmanned testing was going on, of course, there were tests with the first crew, and the nation lost the Apollo 1 crew. How did that affect what you were doing and impact the morale of the controllers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember seeing Fiji from the air, Nadi on the Nadi side, it was beautiful, obviously tropical beaches. And it was a gorgeous morning. And I think we flew all night and landed early morning. And so it was great. And then we were picked up at the airport, met the director, a guy named John Delezio, who’s picture is here in this book. And we were bussed to the Nadi Hotel, which I looked for when I was in Nadi a couple of months ago, the one that was the Nadi Hotel is not there. So anyway, and spent a couple, I think a couple of nights there, that was a lot of fun. It was a little more relaxed. The Peace Corps staff I liked a lot. Delezio was a very cool guy, not too different from the guy you and I just met in Fiji at the reunion. I forget his name.

[Assistant] Dennis.

[User] Dennis. Yeah. Kind of similar personalities and skills in terms of being, you know, well-spoken but cool and calm and very intelligent. Delezio was like that too. So that was very positive. Then we took a bus, or I think we took, did we take the local bus to Suva? I think we made every stop on the way to Suva, so it must have been the local bus. Or it was a Peace Corps bus, but it's still a local bus. And with, you know, no windows, the flaps are all rolled up, and driving through the country on dirt roads, a lot more dirt roads back in those days. So a long bus ride but that was kind of neat. And the coral coast all the way over to Suva. So that was the arrival.

[Assistant] So you did your training then in-country when you got to Suva?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, we were.

[Assistant] Tell us about your training, where you stayed, what the training consisted of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Charles Murray, well, you have his book. It's in the library. I have his phone numbers. I don't talk to him very much because he's—that wasn't his bent. He's a sociologist, and that's what he does. But I don't know why he got it in his mind to do this. It took him five years to write the book.

[Assistant] It's actually pretty short, a short time frame, period, compared to some of the other books.

[User] It was so hard for him to cover it all. He accomplished something nobody else really did. He met everybody or he met people that knew the people that had already passed away. He knew everybody that was instrumental in making the program go. He knew everybody, and it was just astonishing how he made those contacts and became friendly with them all and had anecdotes about people, like George [M.] Low, mild George Low, who's the guy who said, "Let's go to the moon on Apollo 8." You never would have dreamed that George Low would have the guts to do that.\n\n What I would do is build a list of what might be considered the prime flight controller contacts to see if you can wrest away their collections, because I have a lot of stuff I've collected, and, of course, I had, in addition, because I was doing the help on the CD-ROM. When I pass away, where's it going? It's not going anywhere. It'll probably get trashed somewhere or it'll get spread around. So that's probably a needy thing to do. And I know Doyle [McDonald] told me what happened with the Rice [University] thing, it didn't work.

[Assistant] Right. We're still trying to work on that anyway.

[User] That's too bad. You need an environment to protect the paper. Who's going to pay for that?

[Assistant] The National Archives certainly isn't doing a very good job of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was so hard for him to cover it all. He accomplished something nobody else really did. He met everybody or he met people that knew the people that had already passed away. He knew everybody that was instrumental in making the program go. He knew everybody, and it was just astonishing how he made those contacts and became friendly with them all and had anecdotes about people, like George [M.] Low, mild George Low, who's the guy who said, "Let's go to the moon on Apollo 8." You never would have dreamed that George Low would have the guts to do that.\n\n What I would do is build a list of what might be considered the prime flight controller contacts to see if you can wrest away their collections, because I have a lot of stuff I've collected, and, of course, I had, in addition, because I was doing the help on the CD-ROM. When I pass away, where's it going? It's not going anywhere. It'll probably get trashed somewhere or it'll get spread around. So that's probably a needy thing to do. And I know Doyle [McDonald] told me what happened with the Rice [University] thing, it didn't work.

[Assistant] Right. We're still trying to work on that anyway.

[User] That's too bad. You need an environment to protect the paper. Who's going to pay for that?

[Assistant] The National Archives certainly isn't doing a very good job of it.

[User] That's a lot of paper that is not going to last. I was astonished that my tapes stayed in my desk at work for twenty years without self-destructing. I was amazed. They were still good.

[Assistant] If you were to donate your materials, what would you be looking for in terms of an area, or what priorities would you look for in a place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's too bad. You need an environment to protect the paper. Who's going to pay for that?

[Assistant] The National Archives certainly isn't doing a very good job of it.

[User] That's a lot of paper that is not going to last. I was astonished that my tapes stayed in my desk at work for twenty years without self-destructing. I was amazed. They were still good.

[Assistant] If you were to donate your materials, what would you be looking for in terms of an area, or what priorities would you look for in a place?

[User] Well, you know—well, perhaps you don't know, I was a EECOM flight controller throughout all of Apollo, from the beginning to the end, as well as ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] and Skylab and the beginning of shuttle, [when I finally had it] up to here with it, which nobody could understand, that I wanted to not be a flight controller anymore. Can you imagine that? [Laughter] Probably the most exciting time for me was the Apollo 13 thing, so I was kind of a focal point for a while. So if that's your question, much of my stuff centers around that, and you would probably have a big area for that mission, because it's so well documented, so much written about it, so that would be a place to put it.

[Assistant] What would you look for in a place to put it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a lot of paper that is not going to last. I was astonished that my tapes stayed in my desk at work for twenty years without self-destructing. I was amazed. They were still good.

[Assistant] If you were to donate your materials, what would you be looking for in terms of an area, or what priorities would you look for in a place?

[User] Well, you know—well, perhaps you don't know, I was a EECOM flight controller throughout all of Apollo, from the beginning to the end, as well as ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] and Skylab and the beginning of shuttle, [when I finally had it] up to here with it, which nobody could understand, that I wanted to not be a flight controller anymore. Can you imagine that? [Laughter] Probably the most exciting time for me was the Apollo 13 thing, so I was kind of a focal point for a while. So if that's your question, much of my stuff centers around that, and you would probably have a big area for that mission, because it's so well documented, so much written about it, so that would be a place to put it.

[Assistant] What would you look for in a place to put it?

[User] If you were asking me that question of anybody, they would want to make sure that the materials that they had would be in some kind of an environment that would preserve the materials and that the materials would be available to anybody that wanted to—they would have to be archived in some manner that people could access the material. I mean, what good is it sitting in a box? So that would be very important, the environment and the cataloging and the availability. Have you come across other questions?

[Assistant] No. That's been the two criteria—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only from their areas of expertise. It's just like any organization. The way it disintegrates is you have a flight director who has a number of mission operations control room flight controllers, and each of them has a staff in the back room. Like during Skylab, I had five people back there because it was such a complicated spacecraft. On Apollo, I had one prime electrical system going, one prime environmental system going. Environmental control system and electrical power. Technically I only had two people back there, and they only concerned themselves necessarily with their areas that they were responsible for. Like the environmental control systems guy also had the cryogenics, which was prime on 13. It turned out that everybody got affected, electrical power and the fuel cells and stuff like that.\n\n What happens is, they don't necessarily know how to talk to each other. They talk to me, the MOCR flight controller, and I put all their inputs together, and then it goes up the line. Gene Kranz, or whoever is the flight director then, integrates all the inputs coming in from everybody. It's interesting. That's why I could never be a flight director. It's too much to juggle, a lot.

[Assistant] Were most of these people contractors or were they ever civil servants?

[User] The front-room guys were always NASA, always. Rare exceptions were they not. The back-room guys mostly were contractor, and that's changed now. Now it's all mostly contractor everyplace. So the career people, so-called career people, were in the front room, and that's how we did it. As NASA, we had the prime responsibility for success or failure of the mission, and that's what we did, and we worried about that. So the people you'll be talking to or contacting mostly will be NASA, ex-NASA, mostly retired now.

[Assistant] Lucky for them.

[User] Well, it's not that. It's just that you're going to have to find them, and that's not going to be a problem, because Bob Legler has most of their addresses, because we have reunion things.

[Assistant] What a good idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's not that. It's just that you're going to have to find them, and that's not going to be a problem, because Bob Legler has most of their addresses, because we have reunion things.

[Assistant] What a good idea.

[User] We had a twentieth anniversary way back of Apollo 17. Last year I think they had one for Apollo 16, which I couldn't get to because it was practically flooding around here, and they really had a lot of people from around the country came in for that.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] My company, one of the three owners of my company is Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan, so he's still around. But you've got to get them before they get away. I personally think this effort should have started a long time ago, and I'm just astonished that it didn't. I've always been disheartened by the lack of attention to history on the part of NASA in general. Somebody should have really been leading that. As far as the flight controllers are concerned, all we did was just go to work and fly a mission, go back to the office, throw the old books away. That's what we did, unfortunately. I threw everything away. Wish I hadn't thrown some of that stuff away, but I didn't have anyplace to put it, and we'd toss it away and go get ready for another mission three months down the road, go to the moon.

[Assistant] That's one thing that people will remember a hundred, a thousand years from now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a twentieth anniversary way back of Apollo 17. Last year I think they had one for Apollo 16, which I couldn't get to because it was practically flooding around here, and they really had a lot of people from around the country came in for that.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] My company, one of the three owners of my company is Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan, so he's still around. But you've got to get them before they get away. I personally think this effort should have started a long time ago, and I'm just astonished that it didn't. I've always been disheartened by the lack of attention to history on the part of NASA in general. Somebody should have really been leading that. As far as the flight controllers are concerned, all we did was just go to work and fly a mission, go back to the office, throw the old books away. That's what we did, unfortunately. I threw everything away. Wish I hadn't thrown some of that stuff away, but I didn't have anyplace to put it, and we'd toss it away and go get ready for another mission three months down the road, go to the moon.

[Assistant] That's one thing that people will remember a hundred, a thousand years from now.

[User] They'll wonder why we didn't go back. That's another thing people ask me, "Do you think we'll ever go back?" when I give these little speeches.\n\n I say, "Well, we'll never go back to the moon in my lifetime."\n\n And Mars? Who knows. Thirty years? It all depends on what we find there. But you can kiss off the moon. And I know how [George W. S.] Abbey feels about it. We should already have a base there.

[Assistant] Who are some of the people that you worked with during your missions that you think people might have a really keen insight into besides some of the lead flight controllers and flight directors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Sure.

[Assistant] Did you move around with one or two in particular?

[User] No, no. It was whoever. What we did try to do, though, management did try, where they could, the back-room guys who were more expert in the various systems of the spacecraft than we were, just as we were more expert in how the spacecraft worked than the flight director. They tried to pair or match up with--like, say I wasn't very strong in instrumentation systems, they would make sure that the back-room guy that I had, was strong in that so he could make up where my weakness was. So they tried to always form a team that was strong all the way around, and, of course, it meant I had to be sure I asked questions, too. Egos don't get by in that business, especially if [Christopher C.] Kraft's [Jr.] still around. You never try to sandbag a flight director. You always say, "I don't know." That was what Kraft taught. If you didn't say that, you were out.

[Assistant] Did you get to work under him?

[User] No. He had become management by the time—I mean, I was there during the—I went down to the Cape during one of the last Gemini simulations that they had in the old control center down there, so I got to see him work, and I couldn't appreciate it, obviously. Now I would. And then, of course, he knew who I was after a while, by first name. He is quite surprising. I'm just surprised he never wrote a book.

[Assistant] From what I understand, he's in the process of doing just that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. It was whoever. What we did try to do, though, management did try, where they could, the back-room guys who were more expert in the various systems of the spacecraft than we were, just as we were more expert in how the spacecraft worked than the flight director. They tried to pair or match up with--like, say I wasn't very strong in instrumentation systems, they would make sure that the back-room guy that I had, was strong in that so he could make up where my weakness was. So they tried to always form a team that was strong all the way around, and, of course, it meant I had to be sure I asked questions, too. Egos don't get by in that business, especially if [Christopher C.] Kraft's [Jr.] still around. You never try to sandbag a flight director. You always say, "I don't know." That was what Kraft taught. If you didn't say that, you were out.

[Assistant] Did you get to work under him?

[User] No. He had become management by the time—I mean, I was there during the—I went down to the Cape during one of the last Gemini simulations that they had in the old control center down there, so I got to see him work, and I couldn't appreciate it, obviously. Now I would. And then, of course, he knew who I was after a while, by first name. He is quite surprising. I'm just surprised he never wrote a book.

[Assistant] From what I understand, he's in the process of doing just that.

[User] Well, it's getting late. [Laughter] It's getting a little late. In fact, Charles Murray had that comment—this is back in '88—he couldn't understand why Kraft wasn't very cooperative with him in writing the book. The only thing he could guess is that Chris was writing his own book, and that would make sense, but that was '88. Figure. Ten years later—

[Assistant] We've heard that he's currently working on it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they put a quality product out, but that was beside the point. So it happens. But it's interesting to hear people respond. You ask them how many have seen the movie and 100 percent of the hands go up, and this guy said, "Well, I guess I don't have to tell you too much here." So it's kind of fun.\n\n But we can do that. Find out what Doyle wants to do about the CD-ROM that I helped with. I'll be glad to donate a copy, but if he doesn't feel too stricken by conscience of getting something for nothing, if he wants to, he can pay me twenty bucks, you know. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We'll certainly follow up on that, and we'll also follow up with the calls to Al Reiner.

[User] Yes. That's going to be tricky. I don't know if those Taft guys are around. I guess not. I guess the contract got changed. But I'm telling you that's what he's telling, they caught him walking out with some tapes when he was making his movie\n\n For All Mankind\n\n , so they just guessed that he scarfed up those tapes, which are not of any benefit to anybody. They can't be played except on that one recorder that they reconditioned here.

[Assistant] Interesting. We'll see if we can get those. Then, also, if you have those recordings on DAT [Digital Audio Tape] tape—

[User] I do.

[Assistant] —you can get those, because we can make CDs for you, and if you wouldn't mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's going to be tricky. I don't know if those Taft guys are around. I guess not. I guess the contract got changed. But I'm telling you that's what he's telling, they caught him walking out with some tapes when he was making his movie\n\n For All Mankind\n\n , so they just guessed that he scarfed up those tapes, which are not of any benefit to anybody. They can't be played except on that one recorder that they reconditioned here.

[Assistant] Interesting. We'll see if we can get those. Then, also, if you have those recordings on DAT [Digital Audio Tape] tape—

[User] I do.

[Assistant] —you can get those, because we can make CDs for you, and if you wouldn't mind.

[User] Oh, I don't mind. Of course not. I'm just delighted that the stuff exists and the original analog tapes are still there. In fact, what I'll do is I'll probably loan you the analog tapes, but the girl over at Taft that made the DAT tape said they really came out good. She cleaned them up. You know, digitally you can do that, as you know.

[Assistant] Are the analog tapes on reel to reel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do.

[Assistant] —you can get those, because we can make CDs for you, and if you wouldn't mind.

[User] Oh, I don't mind. Of course not. I'm just delighted that the stuff exists and the original analog tapes are still there. In fact, what I'll do is I'll probably loan you the analog tapes, but the girl over at Taft that made the DAT tape said they really came out good. She cleaned them up. You know, digitally you can do that, as you know.

[Assistant] Are the analog tapes on reel to reel?

[User] They're on cassettes. A lot smaller, too. One of my hobbies is sound, you know, live sound, and I'm not going to buy DAT. I've got so much invested in sound equipment now.

[Assistant] We're actually using DAT for our initial research, but we transfer it immediately onto compact discs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don't mind. Of course not. I'm just delighted that the stuff exists and the original analog tapes are still there. In fact, what I'll do is I'll probably loan you the analog tapes, but the girl over at Taft that made the DAT tape said they really came out good. She cleaned them up. You know, digitally you can do that, as you know.

[Assistant] Are the analog tapes on reel to reel?

[User] They're on cassettes. A lot smaller, too. One of my hobbies is sound, you know, live sound, and I'm not going to buy DAT. I've got so much invested in sound equipment now.

[Assistant] We're actually using DAT for our initial research, but we transfer it immediately onto compact discs.

[User] Okay. I'll do that. And you're going to let me know about that other CD-ROM that I worked on. I can do that.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And then, if you wouldn't mind, if you can do a little more background research, we'd love to do a real oral history with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're on cassettes. A lot smaller, too. One of my hobbies is sound, you know, live sound, and I'm not going to buy DAT. I've got so much invested in sound equipment now.

[Assistant] We're actually using DAT for our initial research, but we transfer it immediately onto compact discs.

[User] Okay. I'll do that. And you're going to let me know about that other CD-ROM that I worked on. I can do that.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And then, if you wouldn't mind, if you can do a little more background research, we'd love to do a real oral history with you.

[User] Okay. Do you have an e-mail?

[Assistant] I sure do, and actually you probably don't want to use the Southwestern Bell account one. We're in the process of leaving, actually, so that address won't work anyway. E-mail will still work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Do you have an e-mail?

[Assistant] I sure do, and actually you probably don't want to use the Southwestern Bell account one. We're in the process of leaving, actually, so that address won't work anyway. E-mail will still work.

[User] Let me cross out the Southwest Bell one. Yes, I can just E-mail you the one-page bio that I use for when people want to—

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] I mean, it's a quickie.

[Assistant] And then we have some of these books [unclear].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me cross out the Southwest Bell one. Yes, I can just E-mail you the one-page bio that I use for when people want to—

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] I mean, it's a quickie.

[Assistant] And then we have some of these books [unclear].

[User] Well, they're librarial now. I don't know where you're going to find a copy besides the one I have of Henry Cooper's book.

[Assistant] Yes, Cooper—I don't know if we have. I'll take a look.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, it's a quickie.

[Assistant] And then we have some of these books [unclear].

[User] Well, they're librarial now. I don't know where you're going to find a copy besides the one I have of Henry Cooper's book.

[Assistant] Yes, Cooper—I don't know if we have. I'll take a look.

[User] Yes. I've got my copy, and I don't know what to do about that unless you—

[Assistant] We have some sources to get older books, and we also go through JCS Library.