[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you think they were well prepared teachers?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They had all, where had they gone to training?

[User] They had been college educated in Cameroon, I think. So the militaire, the ones who were there, were not as bad as the older, more established inside the compound French, but they were still.

[Assistant] When you say the militaire they were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They had all, where had they gone to training?

[User] They had been college educated in Cameroon, I think. So the militaire, the ones who were there, were not as bad as the older, more established inside the compound French, but they were still.

[Assistant] When you say the militaire they were?

[User] They were teaching. It was part of the military service. Alternate service. It was the alternative to being in the foreign legion or whatever.

[Assistant] Oh, and they were called militaire.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had been college educated in Cameroon, I think. So the militaire, the ones who were there, were not as bad as the older, more established inside the compound French, but they were still.

[Assistant] When you say the militaire they were?

[User] They were teaching. It was part of the military service. Alternate service. It was the alternative to being in the foreign legion or whatever.

[Assistant] Oh, and they were called militaire.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what did you do on days off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were teaching. It was part of the military service. Alternate service. It was the alternative to being in the foreign legion or whatever.

[Assistant] Oh, and they were called militaire.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what did you do on days off?

[User] Explore. Explore. Wearing my African shirt and my shorts and my pith helmet. That was one of my best gifts, one the missionaries had given me, was the old traditional pith helmet made out of cork. So in case you fell into quicksand, the pith helmet would float, they would know where to find the body.

[Assistant] Well, that was great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what did you do on days off?

[User] Explore. Explore. Wearing my African shirt and my shorts and my pith helmet. That was one of my best gifts, one the missionaries had given me, was the old traditional pith helmet made out of cork. So in case you fell into quicksand, the pith helmet would float, they would know where to find the body.

[Assistant] Well, that was great.

[User] Yes, but it did extend on the back to cover your neck and I would love to go out running in the in the desert. I remember going into one pothole that I called the mother of all potholes because you couldn't see me from the road until I drove out the other end. Yeah.

[Assistant] It sounds very primitive at that point. How did you feel about all of this? Did you feel isolated? Or just tired maybe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Explore. Explore. Wearing my African shirt and my shorts and my pith helmet. That was one of my best gifts, one the missionaries had given me, was the old traditional pith helmet made out of cork. So in case you fell into quicksand, the pith helmet would float, they would know where to find the body.

[Assistant] Well, that was great.

[User] Yes, but it did extend on the back to cover your neck and I would love to go out running in the in the desert. I remember going into one pothole that I called the mother of all potholes because you couldn't see me from the road until I drove out the other end. Yeah.

[Assistant] It sounds very primitive at that point. How did you feel about all of this? Did you feel isolated? Or just tired maybe.

[User] Somewhat isolated. It was great having Voice of America to listen to the BBC. I would correct papers, do my planning at night.

[Assistant] So you had electricity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but it did extend on the back to cover your neck and I would love to go out running in the in the desert. I remember going into one pothole that I called the mother of all potholes because you couldn't see me from the road until I drove out the other end. Yeah.

[Assistant] It sounds very primitive at that point. How did you feel about all of this? Did you feel isolated? Or just tired maybe.

[User] Somewhat isolated. It was great having Voice of America to listen to the BBC. I would correct papers, do my planning at night.

[Assistant] So you had electricity.

[User] I had battery powered radios, battery powered radio. Write letters. I made the mistake of not numbering my letters when I mailed them to people. Because it was quite common for the employees of the post office, once they sold you the stamp, you put it on the envelope and dropped it in the slot, to take your envelope, peel the stamp off to sell it again and throw the letter away. Chad, at that point, had no scheduled mail delivery system. Someone would stop at the post office, sign for the pouch and take it to the next city. So mail delivery was very slow.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get a letter from home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somewhat isolated. It was great having Voice of America to listen to the BBC. I would correct papers, do my planning at night.

[Assistant] So you had electricity.

[User] I had battery powered radios, battery powered radio. Write letters. I made the mistake of not numbering my letters when I mailed them to people. Because it was quite common for the employees of the post office, once they sold you the stamp, you put it on the envelope and dropped it in the slot, to take your envelope, peel the stamp off to sell it again and throw the letter away. Chad, at that point, had no scheduled mail delivery system. Someone would stop at the post office, sign for the pouch and take it to the next city. So mail delivery was very slow.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get a letter from home?

[User] Two to three weeks.

[Assistant] That's not too bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had battery powered radios, battery powered radio. Write letters. I made the mistake of not numbering my letters when I mailed them to people. Because it was quite common for the employees of the post office, once they sold you the stamp, you put it on the envelope and dropped it in the slot, to take your envelope, peel the stamp off to sell it again and throw the letter away. Chad, at that point, had no scheduled mail delivery system. Someone would stop at the post office, sign for the pouch and take it to the next city. So mail delivery was very slow.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get a letter from home?

[User] Two to three weeks.

[Assistant] That's not too bad.

[User] No. There was one phone at the post office. You could schedule international calls.

[Assistant] Did you ever do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two to three weeks.

[Assistant] That's not too bad.

[User] No. There was one phone at the post office. You could schedule international calls.

[Assistant] Did you ever do that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So did you see other Peace Corps volunteers periodically, or were you alone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. There was one phone at the post office. You could schedule international calls.

[Assistant] Did you ever do that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So did you see other Peace Corps volunteers periodically, or were you alone?

[User] From the 1st of September until Thanksgiving, I think I was on my own. We had, in southern Chad, we had a group that got together after our Thanksgiving weekend and had a nice meal together. I remember taking, riding in the back of a truck from Doba to, I don't even remember the name of the town right now, but it's changed anyway. And having to shower when I got there and the water that flowed off of me was red from the sand that covered me in the back of the truck.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering, so you read, you listened to the radio.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So did you see other Peace Corps volunteers periodically, or were you alone?

[User] From the 1st of September until Thanksgiving, I think I was on my own. We had, in southern Chad, we had a group that got together after our Thanksgiving weekend and had a nice meal together. I remember taking, riding in the back of a truck from Doba to, I don't even remember the name of the town right now, but it's changed anyway. And having to shower when I got there and the water that flowed off of me was red from the sand that covered me in the back of the truck.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering, so you read, you listened to the radio.

[User] Wrote letters, yes.

[Assistant] And you felt you felt good about your work? Did you feel good about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the 1st of September until Thanksgiving, I think I was on my own. We had, in southern Chad, we had a group that got together after our Thanksgiving weekend and had a nice meal together. I remember taking, riding in the back of a truck from Doba to, I don't even remember the name of the town right now, but it's changed anyway. And having to shower when I got there and the water that flowed off of me was red from the sand that covered me in the back of the truck.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering, so you read, you listened to the radio.

[User] Wrote letters, yes.

[Assistant] And you felt you felt good about your work? Did you feel good about it?

[User] As good as you could feel, as good as you could feel, those of us who were in the TEFL program teaching English as a foreign language felt somewhat frustrated. Because here we are with students teaching them English, knowing that the odds of them going on to finish high school are very slim, much less leaving the country. And there are so many more practical things we could have been teaching, but it was explained to us that we were the deal sweetener for the Chadian government. The Chadian government wanted English teachers because they wanted to be as much like France as possible. So if they would take us, the Peace Corps said you really need to take the health people and the well digging people, and I think there were forestry volunteers at that time. But the big focus from the government was on the English teachers. The governor introduced me to people one time in a restaurant in town as his English teacher.

[Assistant] As a prize.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wrote letters, yes.

[Assistant] And you felt you felt good about your work? Did you feel good about it?

[User] As good as you could feel, as good as you could feel, those of us who were in the TEFL program teaching English as a foreign language felt somewhat frustrated. Because here we are with students teaching them English, knowing that the odds of them going on to finish high school are very slim, much less leaving the country. And there are so many more practical things we could have been teaching, but it was explained to us that we were the deal sweetener for the Chadian government. The Chadian government wanted English teachers because they wanted to be as much like France as possible. So if they would take us, the Peace Corps said you really need to take the health people and the well digging people, and I think there were forestry volunteers at that time. But the big focus from the government was on the English teachers. The governor introduced me to people one time in a restaurant in town as his English teacher.

[Assistant] As a prize.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel around very much?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As good as you could feel, as good as you could feel, those of us who were in the TEFL program teaching English as a foreign language felt somewhat frustrated. Because here we are with students teaching them English, knowing that the odds of them going on to finish high school are very slim, much less leaving the country. And there are so many more practical things we could have been teaching, but it was explained to us that we were the deal sweetener for the Chadian government. The Chadian government wanted English teachers because they wanted to be as much like France as possible. So if they would take us, the Peace Corps said you really need to take the health people and the well digging people, and I think there were forestry volunteers at that time. But the big focus from the government was on the English teachers. The governor introduced me to people one time in a restaurant in town as his English teacher.

[Assistant] As a prize.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel around very much?

[User] Not very much. No. Travel was really, really difficult.

[Assistant] Was there? Were there vacations, Christmas vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel around very much?

[User] Not very much. No. Travel was really, really difficult.

[Assistant] Was there? Were there vacations, Christmas vacation?

[User] Some vacations, yes. I didn't finish. By the time I left, I left early. I had problems with the water. And ended up losing 60 or 70 pounds and was having trouble holding an item. You know, my water was filtered. It was boiled and treated with iodine tablets and I still.

[Assistant] So you basically went to the capital or did you go back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very much. No. Travel was really, really difficult.

[Assistant] Was there? Were there vacations, Christmas vacation?

[User] Some vacations, yes. I didn't finish. By the time I left, I left early. I had problems with the water. And ended up losing 60 or 70 pounds and was having trouble holding an item. You know, my water was filtered. It was boiled and treated with iodine tablets and I still.

[Assistant] So you basically went to the capital or did you go back home?

[User] I ended up coming back home, yeah.

[Assistant] And because you were so sick.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some vacations, yes. I didn't finish. By the time I left, I left early. I had problems with the water. And ended up losing 60 or 70 pounds and was having trouble holding an item. You know, my water was filtered. It was boiled and treated with iodine tablets and I still.

[Assistant] So you basically went to the capital or did you go back home?

[User] I ended up coming back home, yeah.

[Assistant] And because you were so sick.

[User] Yeah. Chad was a difficult assignment. They had a very low rate of just finishing the two years. Physical problems. Emotional problems adjusting.

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I ended up coming back home, yeah.

[Assistant] And because you were so sick.

[User] Yeah. Chad was a difficult assignment. They had a very low rate of just finishing the two years. Physical problems. Emotional problems adjusting.

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community? Beyond the French teachers? Did you feel that people wanted you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Chad was a difficult assignment. They had a very low rate of just finishing the two years. Physical problems. Emotional problems adjusting.

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community? Beyond the French teachers? Did you feel that people wanted you there?

[User] It took a while for them, I think, to figure out why I was different. I remember one evening walking from town. Two stories about coming in from the market. I'll do the first one. Don't let me forget to do the second, because it's a better one. And I was walking through the district, the African district, as opposed to the Muslim district. And this guy comes out of a little bar and drops to his knees. Because he thought being white in that part of town, I must be a priest, so I did the sign of the cross and blessed him and went on. He was happy and I was, yeah. My next-door neighbors lived on a porch of a house that had been left by a doctor. And the children, when they knew I was, I never figured out how they knew that I was coming into town, but when I had gone out anywhere and came into town on the truck, they would end up in the town square to greet me and carry anything that I had with me on top of their heads. It was like a little procession through back to my house, you know.

[Assistant] But they lived out on a porch, they didn't live in the house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Was it a welcoming community? Beyond the French teachers? Did you feel that people wanted you there?

[User] It took a while for them, I think, to figure out why I was different. I remember one evening walking from town. Two stories about coming in from the market. I'll do the first one. Don't let me forget to do the second, because it's a better one. And I was walking through the district, the African district, as opposed to the Muslim district. And this guy comes out of a little bar and drops to his knees. Because he thought being white in that part of town, I must be a priest, so I did the sign of the cross and blessed him and went on. He was happy and I was, yeah. My next-door neighbors lived on a porch of a house that had been left by a doctor. And the children, when they knew I was, I never figured out how they knew that I was coming into town, but when I had gone out anywhere and came into town on the truck, they would end up in the town square to greet me and carry anything that I had with me on top of their heads. It was like a little procession through back to my house, you know.

[Assistant] But they lived out on a porch, they didn't live in the house?

[User] No, they lived on the porch next door. Everything was done on the porch, in the yard. I had a little grass fence around the back of the house and they knew exactly where to stand to watch me through the window of the bathroom when I brush my teeth, which they thought was hilarious. It was that and rubbing the hair on my arms that they enjoyed.

[Assistant] So those were the two stories and you said in passing the African versus the Muslim part of town, but what was the setup there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took a while for them, I think, to figure out why I was different. I remember one evening walking from town. Two stories about coming in from the market. I'll do the first one. Don't let me forget to do the second, because it's a better one. And I was walking through the district, the African district, as opposed to the Muslim district. And this guy comes out of a little bar and drops to his knees. Because he thought being white in that part of town, I must be a priest, so I did the sign of the cross and blessed him and went on. He was happy and I was, yeah. My next-door neighbors lived on a porch of a house that had been left by a doctor. And the children, when they knew I was, I never figured out how they knew that I was coming into town, but when I had gone out anywhere and came into town on the truck, they would end up in the town square to greet me and carry anything that I had with me on top of their heads. It was like a little procession through back to my house, you know.

[Assistant] But they lived out on a porch, they didn't live in the house?

[User] No, they lived on the porch next door. Everything was done on the porch, in the yard. I had a little grass fence around the back of the house and they knew exactly where to stand to watch me through the window of the bathroom when I brush my teeth, which they thought was hilarious. It was that and rubbing the hair on my arms that they enjoyed.

[Assistant] So those were the two stories and you said in passing the African versus the Muslim part of town, but what was the setup there?

[User] A large part of Chad, still is, Muslim and you have the native African population.

[Assistant] So the Muslims are not native Africans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they lived on the porch next door. Everything was done on the porch, in the yard. I had a little grass fence around the back of the house and they knew exactly where to stand to watch me through the window of the bathroom when I brush my teeth, which they thought was hilarious. It was that and rubbing the hair on my arms that they enjoyed.

[Assistant] So those were the two stories and you said in passing the African versus the Muslim part of town, but what was the setup there?

[User] A large part of Chad, still is, Muslim and you have the native African population.

[Assistant] So the Muslims are not native Africans?

[User] They are native Africans, but there are more North African background. And then you've got the religious difference. Three or four years in the mid-seventies, I remember picking up Newsweek magazine and reading about Doba in an article about Africa. And there had been a massacre there and all the Muslims were killed and the mosque destroyed.

[Assistant] Did you sense that animosity when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A large part of Chad, still is, Muslim and you have the native African population.

[Assistant] So the Muslims are not native Africans?

[User] They are native Africans, but there are more North African background. And then you've got the religious difference. Three or four years in the mid-seventies, I remember picking up Newsweek magazine and reading about Doba in an article about Africa. And there had been a massacre there and all the Muslims were killed and the mosque destroyed.

[Assistant] Did you sense that animosity when you were there?

[User] No, I may just not have been able to pick up on it. When we were there, there were two civil wars going on, in the north and in the east, closer to Sudan. And some of the fighting that's going back and forth has been between the sub-Saharan Africans and the Muslim Africans with the power struggle between them.

[Assistant] Did you feel affected by that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They are native Africans, but there are more North African background. And then you've got the religious difference. Three or four years in the mid-seventies, I remember picking up Newsweek magazine and reading about Doba in an article about Africa. And there had been a massacre there and all the Muslims were killed and the mosque destroyed.

[Assistant] Did you sense that animosity when you were there?

[User] No, I may just not have been able to pick up on it. When we were there, there were two civil wars going on, in the north and in the east, closer to Sudan. And some of the fighting that's going back and forth has been between the sub-Saharan Africans and the Muslim Africans with the power struggle between them.

[Assistant] Did you feel affected by that?

[User] The massacre?

[Assistant] No, uh, yes. I mean, just the ongoing wars.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I may just not have been able to pick up on it. When we were there, there were two civil wars going on, in the north and in the east, closer to Sudan. And some of the fighting that's going back and forth has been between the sub-Saharan Africans and the Muslim Africans with the power struggle between them.

[Assistant] Did you feel affected by that?

[User] The massacre?

[Assistant] No, uh, yes. I mean, just the ongoing wars.

[User] No, no, although I do remember, I was really very good with my French in case I was picked up or stopped and taken hostage. I can explain in French without failure that I was worth more alive than dead.

[Assistant] That's pretty funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The massacre?

[Assistant] No, uh, yes. I mean, just the ongoing wars.

[User] No, no, although I do remember, I was really very good with my French in case I was picked up or stopped and taken hostage. I can explain in French without failure that I was worth more alive than dead.

[Assistant] That's pretty funny.

[User] Yeah, one of one of our group, one of our 13 teachers. Fort Archambault, in the northern part of Chad, I don't know what it's called now. There was a French military base there, and they evacuated her. Picked her up at her house and took her into the fort for a couple of nights at least once while I was there because of the threat of violence.

[Assistant] Because she was a woman or because she was American or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, although I do remember, I was really very good with my French in case I was picked up or stopped and taken hostage. I can explain in French without failure that I was worth more alive than dead.

[Assistant] That's pretty funny.

[User] Yeah, one of one of our group, one of our 13 teachers. Fort Archambault, in the northern part of Chad, I don't know what it's called now. There was a French military base there, and they evacuated her. Picked her up at her house and took her into the fort for a couple of nights at least once while I was there because of the threat of violence.

[Assistant] Because she was a woman or because she was American or what?

[User] Because the rebels might attack the town. One of my volunteers who lived in the next town east of me was attacked one night by a teacher from her school after they've been to a bar.

[Assistant] This was a woman teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, one of one of our group, one of our 13 teachers. Fort Archambault, in the northern part of Chad, I don't know what it's called now. There was a French military base there, and they evacuated her. Picked her up at her house and took her into the fort for a couple of nights at least once while I was there because of the threat of violence.

[Assistant] Because she was a woman or because she was American or what?

[User] Because the rebels might attack the town. One of my volunteers who lived in the next town east of me was attacked one night by a teacher from her school after they've been to a bar.

[Assistant] This was a woman teacher?

[User] A female teacher, and she had to be evacuated. They were able to get a helicopter in and evacuate her. She had some, she was badly hurt.

[Assistant] So you did feel, did you feel threatened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the rebels might attack the town. One of my volunteers who lived in the next town east of me was attacked one night by a teacher from her school after they've been to a bar.

[Assistant] This was a woman teacher?

[User] A female teacher, and she had to be evacuated. They were able to get a helicopter in and evacuate her. She had some, she was badly hurt.

[Assistant] So you did feel, did you feel threatened?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't feel threatened, but you had your spiel for if you were kidnapped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A female teacher, and she had to be evacuated. They were able to get a helicopter in and evacuate her. She had some, she was badly hurt.

[Assistant] So you did feel, did you feel threatened?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't feel threatened, but you had your spiel for if you were kidnapped.

[User] Just in case, I was worth more as a hostage, live hostage than I was dead.

[Assistant] Yes, that that made a lot of sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't feel threatened, but you had your spiel for if you were kidnapped.

[User] Just in case, I was worth more as a hostage, live hostage than I was dead.

[Assistant] Yes, that that made a lot of sense.

[User] Oh, we weren't really close to any of the disturbances. They were the eastern part over near Sudan and up near Libya.

[Assistant] And how were those? When were those resolved or are they still ongoing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just in case, I was worth more as a hostage, live hostage than I was dead.

[Assistant] Yes, that that made a lot of sense.

[User] Oh, we weren't really close to any of the disturbances. They were the eastern part over near Sudan and up near Libya.

[Assistant] And how were those? When were those resolved or are they still ongoing?

[User] I think it's fairly well resolved. Of course, the focus now is more toward ISIS and Boko Haram, which when they did the kidnappings in Nigeria, that's awful close to Lake Chad and the Chadian Army has been involved in hunting them down. You know, getting news from Chad is very difficult. We just don't. It's a struggle to keep up on things there.

[Assistant] And why is it so isolated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we weren't really close to any of the disturbances. They were the eastern part over near Sudan and up near Libya.

[Assistant] And how were those? When were those resolved or are they still ongoing?

[User] I think it's fairly well resolved. Of course, the focus now is more toward ISIS and Boko Haram, which when they did the kidnappings in Nigeria, that's awful close to Lake Chad and the Chadian Army has been involved in hunting them down. You know, getting news from Chad is very difficult. We just don't. It's a struggle to keep up on things there.

[Assistant] And why is it so isolated?

[User] It's in the middle, it's in the middle. When I was there, it was one of the few countries in the world where you could not buy a Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] So it's really then and maybe now still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's fairly well resolved. Of course, the focus now is more toward ISIS and Boko Haram, which when they did the kidnappings in Nigeria, that's awful close to Lake Chad and the Chadian Army has been involved in hunting them down. You know, getting news from Chad is very difficult. We just don't. It's a struggle to keep up on things there.

[Assistant] And why is it so isolated?

[User] It's in the middle, it's in the middle. When I was there, it was one of the few countries in the world where you could not buy a Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] So it's really then and maybe now still.

[User] Bad infrastructure. You know, if you try to drive anywhere. Dirt roads then, I can't imagine it being a whole lot better. No railroad to Chad. No, it was isolated. One of the 10 poorest countries in the world of that time, and not much better now.

[Assistant] And you got sick. Where did you get medical treatment there? But was there a doctor nearby?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's in the middle, it's in the middle. When I was there, it was one of the few countries in the world where you could not buy a Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] So it's really then and maybe now still.

[User] Bad infrastructure. You know, if you try to drive anywhere. Dirt roads then, I can't imagine it being a whole lot better. No railroad to Chad. No, it was isolated. One of the 10 poorest countries in the world of that time, and not much better now.

[Assistant] And you got sick. Where did you get medical treatment there? But was there a doctor nearby?

[User] No. The doctor, there was a doctor who flew in once a month.

[Assistant] Peace Corps doctor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bad infrastructure. You know, if you try to drive anywhere. Dirt roads then, I can't imagine it being a whole lot better. No railroad to Chad. No, it was isolated. One of the 10 poorest countries in the world of that time, and not much better now.

[Assistant] And you got sick. Where did you get medical treatment there? But was there a doctor nearby?

[User] No. The doctor, there was a doctor who flew in once a month.

[Assistant] Peace Corps doctor?

[User] No. Civilian. The missionaries, the missionaries, yeah, the missionaries had a baby clinic, and they were some help to me. I survived malaria. But it was systemic issues that got to me. Malaria, I just felt like if I could die, I would feel much better. It was, it was an experience.

[Assistant] Have you gotten over malaria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The doctor, there was a doctor who flew in once a month.

[Assistant] Peace Corps doctor?

[User] No. Civilian. The missionaries, the missionaries, yeah, the missionaries had a baby clinic, and they were some help to me. I survived malaria. But it was systemic issues that got to me. Malaria, I just felt like if I could die, I would feel much better. It was, it was an experience.

[Assistant] Have you gotten over malaria?

[User] I haven't had it reoccur.

[Assistant] You've never had it reoccur?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Civilian. The missionaries, the missionaries, yeah, the missionaries had a baby clinic, and they were some help to me. I survived malaria. But it was systemic issues that got to me. Malaria, I just felt like if I could die, I would feel much better. It was, it was an experience.

[Assistant] Have you gotten over malaria?

[User] I haven't had it reoccur.

[Assistant] You've never had it reoccur?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So many people I know who've had malaria have it for their lifetime. So you're lucky.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I haven't had it reoccur.

[Assistant] You've never had it reoccur?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So many people I know who've had malaria have it for their lifetime. So you're lucky.

[User] Yeah. When I talk with a doctor and we go through my physical and mental health history. I throw in the malaria and gives them a little, you know, along with the stomach issues.

[Assistant] So how did you end up leaving? I mean, who decided you were sick enough to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So many people I know who've had malaria have it for their lifetime. So you're lucky.

[User] Yeah. When I talk with a doctor and we go through my physical and mental health history. I throw in the malaria and gives them a little, you know, along with the stomach issues.

[Assistant] So how did you end up leaving? I mean, who decided you were sick enough to leave?

[User] It was consultation with the doctors in the capital, the Peace Corps doctor there.

[Assistant] And then the Peace Corps decided that you were too sick.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. When I talk with a doctor and we go through my physical and mental health history. I throw in the malaria and gives them a little, you know, along with the stomach issues.

[Assistant] So how did you end up leaving? I mean, who decided you were sick enough to leave?

[User] It was consultation with the doctors in the capital, the Peace Corps doctor there.

[Assistant] And then the Peace Corps decided that you were too sick.

[User] They didn't resist. When I told them that, you know, there was no effort to persuade me to stay.

[Assistant] You decided you needed to go to the capital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was consultation with the doctors in the capital, the Peace Corps doctor there.

[Assistant] And then the Peace Corps decided that you were too sick.

[User] They didn't resist. When I told them that, you know, there was no effort to persuade me to stay.

[Assistant] You decided you needed to go to the capital?

[User] I was in the capital for a conference and had made them aware of my health issues anyway. Of course, I thought I made them aware. You never knew if a letter had gotten there or not.

[Assistant] Did anybody come out from Peace Corps to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't resist. When I told them that, you know, there was no effort to persuade me to stay.

[Assistant] You decided you needed to go to the capital?

[User] I was in the capital for a conference and had made them aware of my health issues anyway. Of course, I thought I made them aware. You never knew if a letter had gotten there or not.

[Assistant] Did anybody come out from Peace Corps to?

[User] To check on me because my health?

[Assistant] No, no, just teaching or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the capital for a conference and had made them aware of my health issues anyway. Of course, I thought I made them aware. You never knew if a letter had gotten there or not.

[Assistant] Did anybody come out from Peace Corps to?

[User] To check on me because my health?

[Assistant] No, no, just teaching or anything?

[User] No, we had the country director. The teacher supervisor visited once. We were on our own. You know, this is in the days before host families and country counterparts, and, you know.

[Assistant] Well, I think we had more support. I wasn't out in the countryside, but I think we had staff visiting more often than in Somalia than you're talking about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To check on me because my health?

[Assistant] No, no, just teaching or anything?

[User] No, we had the country director. The teacher supervisor visited once. We were on our own. You know, this is in the days before host families and country counterparts, and, you know.

[Assistant] Well, I think we had more support. I wasn't out in the countryside, but I think we had staff visiting more often than in Somalia than you're talking about.

[User] Transportation. Transportation in Chad was difficult.

[Assistant] Yeah, how did you feel about leaving, were you? You were ready to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had the country director. The teacher supervisor visited once. We were on our own. You know, this is in the days before host families and country counterparts, and, you know.

[Assistant] Well, I think we had more support. I wasn't out in the countryside, but I think we had staff visiting more often than in Somalia than you're talking about.

[User] Transportation. Transportation in Chad was difficult.

[Assistant] Yeah, how did you feel about leaving, were you? You were ready to go?

[User] It was mixed. It was mixed, mixed feelings. I still I still wish I could have stayed. Wish I could have gone back. It's not been safe for decades to go back to Chad. Peace Corps pulled out so many years back. I think it still shows up on one of the places the State Department says stay away from.

[Assistant] How do you think about your whole experience? Impact on your life, was it a good thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Transportation. Transportation in Chad was difficult.

[Assistant] Yeah, how did you feel about leaving, were you? You were ready to go?

[User] It was mixed. It was mixed, mixed feelings. I still I still wish I could have stayed. Wish I could have gone back. It's not been safe for decades to go back to Chad. Peace Corps pulled out so many years back. I think it still shows up on one of the places the State Department says stay away from.

[Assistant] How do you think about your whole experience? Impact on your life, was it a good thing?

[User] It changed. It changed my life. It gave me a different perspective. Totally different perspective.

[Assistant] Can you talk what how did it change your perspective?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was mixed. It was mixed, mixed feelings. I still I still wish I could have stayed. Wish I could have gone back. It's not been safe for decades to go back to Chad. Peace Corps pulled out so many years back. I think it still shows up on one of the places the State Department says stay away from.

[Assistant] How do you think about your whole experience? Impact on your life, was it a good thing?

[User] It changed. It changed my life. It gave me a different perspective. Totally different perspective.

[Assistant] Can you talk what how did it change your perspective?

[User] I got a much, you know, I thought of myself as being very open minded, very liberal, but living in another country like that. It just changed your, it solidified some of those ideas and expanded others. Later in life, I went back to I went to Panama for 10 months to try to regain some of that. I've traveled on five continents visiting. But I wanted to try that living abroad again and even 10 months in Panama refreshed some of that. You get a better, healthier perspective about the world.

[Assistant] Do you think you had any impact in Chad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It changed. It changed my life. It gave me a different perspective. Totally different perspective.

[Assistant] Can you talk what how did it change your perspective?

[User] I got a much, you know, I thought of myself as being very open minded, very liberal, but living in another country like that. It just changed your, it solidified some of those ideas and expanded others. Later in life, I went back to I went to Panama for 10 months to try to regain some of that. I've traveled on five continents visiting. But I wanted to try that living abroad again and even 10 months in Panama refreshed some of that. You get a better, healthier perspective about the world.

[Assistant] Do you think you had any impact in Chad?

[User] You never know. Or you're lucky if you do while you're there. You know, we heard this morning the story from Nepal about someone who's in the seventh grade when he meets his first Americans, and years later, he becomes one of the top diplomats at the U.N. There are people in our group in West Virginia who were taught Spanish by a guy in Peru who had met Peace Corps volunteers when he was little, talked his mother into to renting rooms to them. He ended up becoming the president of Peru. You just don't know. You just don't know.

[Assistant] But for you, despite the illness, you feel good about your experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got a much, you know, I thought of myself as being very open minded, very liberal, but living in another country like that. It just changed your, it solidified some of those ideas and expanded others. Later in life, I went back to I went to Panama for 10 months to try to regain some of that. I've traveled on five continents visiting. But I wanted to try that living abroad again and even 10 months in Panama refreshed some of that. You get a better, healthier perspective about the world.

[Assistant] Do you think you had any impact in Chad?

[User] You never know. Or you're lucky if you do while you're there. You know, we heard this morning the story from Nepal about someone who's in the seventh grade when he meets his first Americans, and years later, he becomes one of the top diplomats at the U.N. There are people in our group in West Virginia who were taught Spanish by a guy in Peru who had met Peace Corps volunteers when he was little, talked his mother into to renting rooms to them. He ended up becoming the president of Peru. You just don't know. You just don't know.

[Assistant] But for you, despite the illness, you feel good about your experience.

[User] Yes. When I go out and talk to potential recruits, I'm very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] Well, talk a little bit about what you've continued to do with Peace Corps. What's your what's your involvement now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When I go out and talk to potential recruits, I'm very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] Well, talk a little bit about what you've continued to do with Peace Corps. What's your what's your involvement now?

[User] We've had several attempts in West Virginia to set up a returned Peace Corps volunteer group. The first attempt was back in the 1990s, and it managed to survive for a year or two. And then they gave up the ghost. Shortly after the 50 year anniversary, there was a group in West Virginia that started meeting in Charleston, the capital city. And up until three or four years ago, they had a mailing list of maybe 70 names. And the president resigned. She wanted to work on a Ph.D., and it was just too much for her. And I had already become advocacy director because no one else wanted to do it, and I thought there was a need for it. I have a lot of political background activity and political campaigning, so I understood a lot of the process. And when the president said she was leaving, no one else would take it. And at that time, I was the youngest of the officers. Which is sad considering that I'm 70 now and just a few years back. One of the first things I did was start looking for volunteers. We've grown our mailing list from 70 to about 240. Peace Corps says they think there may have been as many as 700 volunteers from West Virginia at some point and possibly 400 there now, which means we've got a ways to go to find all of them or even most of them. I do recruiting. I'm trying to get our group more decentralized, get people in other parts of the state to be a little more active and part of our state organization, part of the national organization. It's a part time job. With great pay. Just like being the volunteer, yeah.

[Assistant] Same level of pay.

[User] To me, it's a continuation of my initial service.

[Assistant] Right. I forgot we kind of skipped over. So you were evacuated. I assume you came home pretty sick.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've had several attempts in West Virginia to set up a returned Peace Corps volunteer group. The first attempt was back in the 1990s, and it managed to survive for a year or two. And then they gave up the ghost. Shortly after the 50 year anniversary, there was a group in West Virginia that started meeting in Charleston, the capital city. And up until three or four years ago, they had a mailing list of maybe 70 names. And the president resigned. She wanted to work on a Ph.D., and it was just too much for her. And I had already become advocacy director because no one else wanted to do it, and I thought there was a need for it. I have a lot of political background activity and political campaigning, so I understood a lot of the process. And when the president said she was leaving, no one else would take it. And at that time, I was the youngest of the officers. Which is sad considering that I'm 70 now and just a few years back. One of the first things I did was start looking for volunteers. We've grown our mailing list from 70 to about 240. Peace Corps says they think there may have been as many as 700 volunteers from West Virginia at some point and possibly 400 there now, which means we've got a ways to go to find all of them or even most of them. I do recruiting. I'm trying to get our group more decentralized, get people in other parts of the state to be a little more active and part of our state organization, part of the national organization. It's a part time job. With great pay. Just like being the volunteer, yeah.

[Assistant] Same level of pay.

[User] To me, it's a continuation of my initial service.

[Assistant] Right. I forgot we kind of skipped over. So you were evacuated. I assume you came home pretty sick.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To me, it's a continuation of my initial service.

[Assistant] Right. I forgot we kind of skipped over. So you were evacuated. I assume you came home pretty sick.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Then what happened?

[User] I got, the flight back was interesting. I flew from Paris to Boston and customs pulled me out of the line at the airport in Boston and had me strip down to my underwear because my clothes were so baggy from the weight loss that they thought I was smuggling. I told them, no, I just had gone through a really rough time. Yes.

[Assistant] And so did you went to the doctor and got what antibiotics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Then what happened?

[User] I got, the flight back was interesting. I flew from Paris to Boston and customs pulled me out of the line at the airport in Boston and had me strip down to my underwear because my clothes were so baggy from the weight loss that they thought I was smuggling. I told them, no, I just had gone through a really rough time. Yes.

[Assistant] And so did you went to the doctor and got what antibiotics?

[User] I had several doctor visits and gradually, you know, my mother was sure that if I would just keep eating, I'd gain all the weight back then. Yeah, it took a little more than that. Then I went to grad school, came back to West Virginia, started teaching, worked in schools for 20 some years, then switched careers, worked with the post office and finally retired.

[Assistant] So you were history, were you were a history teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got, the flight back was interesting. I flew from Paris to Boston and customs pulled me out of the line at the airport in Boston and had me strip down to my underwear because my clothes were so baggy from the weight loss that they thought I was smuggling. I told them, no, I just had gone through a really rough time. Yes.

[Assistant] And so did you went to the doctor and got what antibiotics?

[User] I had several doctor visits and gradually, you know, my mother was sure that if I would just keep eating, I'd gain all the weight back then. Yeah, it took a little more than that. Then I went to grad school, came back to West Virginia, started teaching, worked in schools for 20 some years, then switched careers, worked with the post office and finally retired.

[Assistant] So you were history, were you were a history teacher?

[User] Social studies, history, geography. Spent a few years as a principal. Very frustrating. I'm very sympathetic to any administrators anymore. But after I retired, I started traveling and working with the Peace Corps group, and that's been. Anytime we get people together, it's like a family reunion and it doesn't matter when they served or how old they are or how young they are. The conversation always flows and everyone feels so comfortable. Like I said, it's like a family reunion.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had several doctor visits and gradually, you know, my mother was sure that if I would just keep eating, I'd gain all the weight back then. Yeah, it took a little more than that. Then I went to grad school, came back to West Virginia, started teaching, worked in schools for 20 some years, then switched careers, worked with the post office and finally retired.

[Assistant] So you were history, were you were a history teacher?

[User] Social studies, history, geography. Spent a few years as a principal. Very frustrating. I'm very sympathetic to any administrators anymore. But after I retired, I started traveling and working with the Peace Corps group, and that's been. Anytime we get people together, it's like a family reunion and it doesn't matter when they served or how old they are or how young they are. The conversation always flows and everyone feels so comfortable. Like I said, it's like a family reunion.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?

[User] I think our experience is just so different from the mainstream here. It binds us together.

[Assistant] Did we start out being the same and then have the experience or did the experience create that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Social studies, history, geography. Spent a few years as a principal. Very frustrating. I'm very sympathetic to any administrators anymore. But after I retired, I started traveling and working with the Peace Corps group, and that's been. Anytime we get people together, it's like a family reunion and it doesn't matter when they served or how old they are or how young they are. The conversation always flows and everyone feels so comfortable. Like I said, it's like a family reunion.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?

[User] I think our experience is just so different from the mainstream here. It binds us together.

[Assistant] Did we start out being the same and then have the experience or did the experience create that?

[User] It's like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. And I think somebody may have said this before. It may be a combination of both. It may be a combination of both.

[Assistant] But it is true. When you meet Peace Corps, former Peace Corps volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think our experience is just so different from the mainstream here. It binds us together.

[Assistant] Did we start out being the same and then have the experience or did the experience create that?

[User] It's like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. And I think somebody may have said this before. It may be a combination of both. It may be a combination of both.

[Assistant] But it is true. When you meet Peace Corps, former Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Coming to Peace Corps Connect, I have met Jonathan, who's our advocacy director, a couple of times. We talk, we're on the conference calls. I talk with you on the phone. I had seen you. You hadn't seen me. But to actually know any of the people here and you just start talking. It just it flows. Once you start, it just goes and goes and goes.

[Assistant] So it's really brought the world back to the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. And I think somebody may have said this before. It may be a combination of both. It may be a combination of both.

[Assistant] But it is true. When you meet Peace Corps, former Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Coming to Peace Corps Connect, I have met Jonathan, who's our advocacy director, a couple of times. We talk, we're on the conference calls. I talk with you on the phone. I had seen you. You hadn't seen me. But to actually know any of the people here and you just start talking. It just it flows. Once you start, it just goes and goes and goes.

[Assistant] So it's really brought the world back to the United States.

[User] Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think the volunteers overall are more socially active, international or internationally active?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Coming to Peace Corps Connect, I have met Jonathan, who's our advocacy director, a couple of times. We talk, we're on the conference calls. I talk with you on the phone. I had seen you. You hadn't seen me. But to actually know any of the people here and you just start talking. It just it flows. Once you start, it just goes and goes and goes.

[Assistant] So it's really brought the world back to the United States.

[User] Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think the volunteers overall are more socially active, international or internationally active?

[User] Yes and yes. One of the reasons we had trouble getting RPCVs to come to our events is they're so busy with other things that are volunteering for. You know, we're the ones that do all these community service projects. We're the ones that are involved in community organizations. We're the ones who volunteer for political organizations, we're, you know.

[Assistant] Once a volunteer, always volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think the volunteers overall are more socially active, international or internationally active?

[User] Yes and yes. One of the reasons we had trouble getting RPCVs to come to our events is they're so busy with other things that are volunteering for. You know, we're the ones that do all these community service projects. We're the ones that are involved in community organizations. We're the ones who volunteer for political organizations, we're, you know.

[Assistant] Once a volunteer, always volunteer.

[User] Once a volunteer, always a volunteer. There ought to be a pill to give you a break.

[Assistant] That's great. Do you have any other thoughts you'd like to share? For posterity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once a volunteer, always a volunteer. There ought to be a pill to give you a break.

[Assistant] That's great. Do you have any other thoughts you'd like to share? For posterity.

[User] For posterity. We have survived. We have survived. We survived the crises with Peace Corps, we survived the political struggles. We survived the people that thought we were a disaster that should be eliminated. And it's nice when you see the new volunteers, whether they're 22 or as in the case of one from West Virginia who starts teaching class in roughly 10 days, who's 78.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] It's nice to see the enthusiasm, the excitement. It's and now it's even better because instead of waiting for two or three weeks to hear from them, I can get text messages and pictures online from them and see what and share it with everyone else. There's such an interest in seeing what our volunteers are doing.

[Assistant] It's a very valuable experience, that that I'm glad I have had, and I hear you as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For posterity. We have survived. We have survived. We survived the crises with Peace Corps, we survived the political struggles. We survived the people that thought we were a disaster that should be eliminated. And it's nice when you see the new volunteers, whether they're 22 or as in the case of one from West Virginia who starts teaching class in roughly 10 days, who's 78.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] It's nice to see the enthusiasm, the excitement. It's and now it's even better because instead of waiting for two or three weeks to hear from them, I can get text messages and pictures online from them and see what and share it with everyone else. There's such an interest in seeing what our volunteers are doing.

[Assistant] It's a very valuable experience, that that I'm glad I have had, and I hear you as well.

[User] And glad to pass on. I mean, there are days I don't always feel like going up to work a job fair or a picnic or some other social event and sit at the table. But once I'm able to start talking with people, the energy just flows.

[Assistant] That's great. So thank you for the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess, like all of these things, it's probably ill-defined, but my first memory of awareness of airplanes and things like that was when I was about seven years old. At the time we lived in a small town in southern Nebraska, along the Republican River. I heard this thing flying overhead. My mother was not well at the time, so I pretty much had the freedom to roam this small town. The motor stopped as I was watching it, and it crashed into a tree about two blocks from where I lived, so I hustled down to watch and, of course, got in everyone's way, I sure. The guy was not seriously hurt. But at that point it seemed to me that airplanes are something that had some excitement associated with them, and I think that a lot of times it's the potential for excitement that causes people to originally get interested in things.\n\n Then as I got older, we moved around. My father worked for a railroad company. So I'd build model airplanes and hung around airports and did all the usual things. So I decided probably that I'd like to be an engineer, and if I was going to be an engineer, I might as well be an aeronautical engineer. So that's the size of it.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an interest in flying yourself or just studying about what made them fly?

[User] I had some interest in flying. At one point I knew how to steer. Also, one of the things we've done here is over the years have had a number of student projects associated with man-powered airplane. I was involved in starting about six others, six students the first attempt, and finally after about eight or nine years we got good enough, so I actually have peddled myself into the air three times, flown 100 yards or so each time.

[Assistant] Ever think about that gentleman in the airplane when you saw when you were a young boy when you are up there?

[User] No. That's his problem.

[Assistant] You, of course, grew from a young boy to a young man and went to school, I believe at the University of Minnesota.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had some interest in flying. At one point I knew how to steer. Also, one of the things we've done here is over the years have had a number of student projects associated with man-powered airplane. I was involved in starting about six others, six students the first attempt, and finally after about eight or nine years we got good enough, so I actually have peddled myself into the air three times, flown 100 yards or so each time.

[Assistant] Ever think about that gentleman in the airplane when you saw when you were a young boy when you are up there?

[User] No. That's his problem.

[Assistant] You, of course, grew from a young boy to a young man and went to school, I believe at the University of Minnesota.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And then you came here to study at MIT.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That's his problem.

[Assistant] You, of course, grew from a young boy to a young man and went to school, I believe at the University of Minnesota.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And then you came here to study at MIT.

[User] Well, there was an interim period when I was in the Navy. At that time I was involved partly as a flight test engineer and partly in project engineering. Of course, flight test engineering was exciting and fun and so forth. I had been away from school for some time before I came here, and I originally came here for a short period of time. At the time I believe it's correct to say we had moved six times in seven years, and my wife was getting a little tired of this. She liked Cambridge and announced to me that she didn't know what my plans were, but when I was through being educated, she was going to stay here. Seemed like a rational thing to do.\n\n I originally was going to just stay for a couple of years. Then I decided that maybe I ought to get a doctor's degree. Then I worked for an aerodynamics laboratory down the street, which MIT ran. I was the associate director of that. Then I got invited to be on the faculty here. I've had several other places where I could have gone. We agreed, my wife and I, that we'd stay in Cambridge. So I got on the faculty and got promoted a couple of times, ultimately got to be department head, and gave that up after five years, and retired a couple of years ago, and I'm still here. It's a rut that I got into. It seems difficult to get out of.

[Assistant] But at least you're pleasing your wife because you're still in Cambridge, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And then you came here to study at MIT.

[User] Well, there was an interim period when I was in the Navy. At that time I was involved partly as a flight test engineer and partly in project engineering. Of course, flight test engineering was exciting and fun and so forth. I had been away from school for some time before I came here, and I originally came here for a short period of time. At the time I believe it's correct to say we had moved six times in seven years, and my wife was getting a little tired of this. She liked Cambridge and announced to me that she didn't know what my plans were, but when I was through being educated, she was going to stay here. Seemed like a rational thing to do.\n\n I originally was going to just stay for a couple of years. Then I decided that maybe I ought to get a doctor's degree. Then I worked for an aerodynamics laboratory down the street, which MIT ran. I was the associate director of that. Then I got invited to be on the faculty here. I've had several other places where I could have gone. We agreed, my wife and I, that we'd stay in Cambridge. So I got on the faculty and got promoted a couple of times, ultimately got to be department head, and gave that up after five years, and retired a couple of years ago, and I'm still here. It's a rut that I got into. It seems difficult to get out of.

[Assistant] But at least you're pleasing your wife because you're still in Cambridge, right?

[User] I believe so, yes.

[Assistant] So that's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was an interim period when I was in the Navy. At that time I was involved partly as a flight test engineer and partly in project engineering. Of course, flight test engineering was exciting and fun and so forth. I had been away from school for some time before I came here, and I originally came here for a short period of time. At the time I believe it's correct to say we had moved six times in seven years, and my wife was getting a little tired of this. She liked Cambridge and announced to me that she didn't know what my plans were, but when I was through being educated, she was going to stay here. Seemed like a rational thing to do.\n\n I originally was going to just stay for a couple of years. Then I decided that maybe I ought to get a doctor's degree. Then I worked for an aerodynamics laboratory down the street, which MIT ran. I was the associate director of that. Then I got invited to be on the faculty here. I've had several other places where I could have gone. We agreed, my wife and I, that we'd stay in Cambridge. So I got on the faculty and got promoted a couple of times, ultimately got to be department head, and gave that up after five years, and retired a couple of years ago, and I'm still here. It's a rut that I got into. It seems difficult to get out of.

[Assistant] But at least you're pleasing your wife because you're still in Cambridge, right?

[User] I believe so, yes.

[Assistant] So that's good.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During the time that you were associate director, NASA formed. Did that have a bearing on what you were doing at the time, or anything that you were doing, did that start becoming an involvement? Could you tell us how you got involved with those aspects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe so, yes.

[Assistant] So that's good.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During the time that you were associate director, NASA formed. Did that have a bearing on what you were doing at the time, or anything that you were doing, did that start becoming an involvement? Could you tell us how you got involved with those aspects?

[User] As always, there's always been some interrelationship between NASA and the university community in terms of research and interests. Sometimes it's collegial and sometimes it's competitive, but the interest has been there. At the time that NASA was formed, I was, of course, quite familiar with the old NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics]. In fact, Dr. [Jerome B.] Hunsaker, who was one of the early founders of that, was still alive, still had an office here, and came in every day, so there was that kind of an awareness.\n\n We were doing some classified work on heat transfer for the Naval Ordnance Laboratory; Naval Weapons Center, I guess it was called, at China Lake at that time. It involves some infrared sensors. So, among other things we did, we tried to see if we could see a hot Sputnik against a cold sky, which turned out to be more of a challenge than we had anticipated, but it worked out. To answer your question, that's what we were doing about the time that the Space Act was passed by Congress. That was about 1958, if I recall.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to Sputnik?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had done some studies in 1947, I guess it was, which suggested that it was not impossible. This was early in the ballistic missile program. So it was not unreasonable. Of course, about that time or a little earlier, I don't remember the sequence, but NRL [Naval Research Laboratory] had a program to put an artificial satellite in space. It was called Vanguard. To create some interest in this, they had a technical essay contest, so I entered it. You know, what the hell. I'm a student at that time, married, had four kids. Why not? And so that's how I got the money to purchase my first television set, was the prize money from that essay contest.\n\n So, you know, it's not like it was a big shock or anything, but I guess, like everyone else, I was a little bit surprised by it. We were very fortunate, we were able to go out and see it quite early on, and we listened to all the people say, "Why don't we shoot it down?" The answer is, of course, with technology available at that time, you couldn't do that. In fact, you may not be able to do it yet. Anyway, that's my first reaction to it.

[Assistant] From that interest, of course, as you already mentioned, in '58 we had the Space Act and NASA was formed. You were here, and then your career moved, though. You were no longer associate director.

[User] I became a faculty member.

[Assistant] Were you still involved in research at the time?

[User] Oh, yes. It's a question of how you divide your effort. MIT encourages faculty to be involved in research, because I think it makes for better teaching. You're not just isolated and rereading last year's notes; you're doing something. And engineers have to do something, in my view. It's very character-forming to do something, because often it doesn't work right the first time.

[Assistant] Some of the research you were doing, were you working on some of the early stages of NASA work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can live on adrenaline for a certain period of time, and I think that was the way that happened. Fortunately, the end of the 120 days corresponded with the middle of June or something like that, and so summer was here. But there was no formal decompression-type activities that anybody provided.

[Assistant] Was there a time during that span which was more difficult than others, or almost every day equally as taxing as the one before?

[User] Well, that was a long time ago.

[Assistant] I guess that's the good news.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you go into another advisory position soon after that one, or did you give yourself a break?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was a long time ago.

[Assistant] I guess that's the good news.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you go into another advisory position soon after that one, or did you give yourself a break?

[User] Well, it seems to me that I just sort of let things keep doing it as they had been done. I think the answer to that is probably yes. When you get out of the—don't do so much technical work, this other stuff is a way of keeping current. I suppose that was the case.

[Assistant] What's the most difficult part of being on a group with so many of your maybe colleagues or peers or counterparts or from people that you may not have met before that time period? What were the difficulties of getting so many people of your expertise and caliber together to come to a result?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think that they are probably useful, because people tend to get inbred in their thinking, and I think this tends to stretch their minds a little bit. Industry has their own kinds of problems. They have to make an airplane that is reasonably cheap and that lives up to the buyers' expectations, and they have to make money on it. So they tend to have a relatively short time perspective.\n\n NASA, on the other hand—and this is more evident, probably, in the space program—has to have a long-time perspective, and so there is a disjoint between what the industry thinks it wants and what they probably need in order, ten years from now, to be more effective. This is part of the give and take of it. I think it's even more evident in the space program because some of these space probes launched might take ten years to get to their target and do what they're supposed to do. It requires a difference in thinking about things and what kind of a perspective you have. So you have to kind of weld this together. I think advisory groups often can make a useful function that way, too, not only stretching people's minds and getting them to look outside their own playpen, but also to keep in mind there are these cultural differences that exist. I think that's probably the two important aspects of advisory work.

[Assistant] What about the future? Have you worked on councils that are looking to the future of aeronautics and space industry?

[User] The answer is yes. In fact, we're in the middle of one now. That's what that phone call I was making, the guy's beeper number, was all about when you arrived.

[Assistant] Can you share any information with us?

[User] It's premature.

[Assistant] So you're looking ahead, and all that past knowledge, I'm sure, plays a big effort in making sure everything is in line for what we're all looking into.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The answer is yes. In fact, we're in the middle of one now. That's what that phone call I was making, the guy's beeper number, was all about when you arrived.

[Assistant] Can you share any information with us?

[User] It's premature.

[Assistant] So you're looking ahead, and all that past knowledge, I'm sure, plays a big effort in making sure everything is in line for what we're all looking into.

[User] Well, I don't know. That's a hard—actually, that's a sentence, not a question.

[Assistant] Right. Is the technology changing, though, so quickly in this field that it's hard to predict or hard to plan for the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's premature.

[Assistant] So you're looking ahead, and all that past knowledge, I'm sure, plays a big effort in making sure everything is in line for what we're all looking into.

[User] Well, I don't know. That's a hard—actually, that's a sentence, not a question.

[Assistant] Right. Is the technology changing, though, so quickly in this field that it's hard to predict or hard to plan for the future?

[User] I think we know what the important problems are. I am not sure that we necessarily know how to solve them at this point. You have to look at a variety of approaches and hope that one will work and not be disappointed that the others don't. This is a very important thing. The other thing that it's important to realize is your own tendency to focus too narrowly, because in engineering you can have multiple solutions to the same design problem. They're all equally effective. So you have to make sure that you don't select yours just because it's yours. There is a little bit of "not invented here" feeling about that. I think, for the most part, we can define the problem areas broadly, and that's all you really need, that and I guess it's an act of faith, you know. You think it's going to work, and you have to work on it.

[Assistant] You're definitely challenging the future, and your past years have been full. Has there been a time that you can remember that was probably the most challenging milestone that you had to deal with before you could move on to the next step?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know. That's a hard—actually, that's a sentence, not a question.

[Assistant] Right. Is the technology changing, though, so quickly in this field that it's hard to predict or hard to plan for the future?

[User] I think we know what the important problems are. I am not sure that we necessarily know how to solve them at this point. You have to look at a variety of approaches and hope that one will work and not be disappointed that the others don't. This is a very important thing. The other thing that it's important to realize is your own tendency to focus too narrowly, because in engineering you can have multiple solutions to the same design problem. They're all equally effective. So you have to make sure that you don't select yours just because it's yours. There is a little bit of "not invented here" feeling about that. I think, for the most part, we can define the problem areas broadly, and that's all you really need, that and I guess it's an act of faith, you know. You think it's going to work, and you have to work on it.

[Assistant] You're definitely challenging the future, and your past years have been full. Has there been a time that you can remember that was probably the most challenging milestone that you had to deal with before you could move on to the next step?

[User] I don't think it's possible—

[Assistant] To find one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we know what the important problems are. I am not sure that we necessarily know how to solve them at this point. You have to look at a variety of approaches and hope that one will work and not be disappointed that the others don't. This is a very important thing. The other thing that it's important to realize is your own tendency to focus too narrowly, because in engineering you can have multiple solutions to the same design problem. They're all equally effective. So you have to make sure that you don't select yours just because it's yours. There is a little bit of "not invented here" feeling about that. I think, for the most part, we can define the problem areas broadly, and that's all you really need, that and I guess it's an act of faith, you know. You think it's going to work, and you have to work on it.

[Assistant] You're definitely challenging the future, and your past years have been full. Has there been a time that you can remember that was probably the most challenging milestone that you had to deal with before you could move on to the next step?

[User] I don't think it's possible—

[Assistant] To find one?

[User] —to define it in those terms.

[Assistant] Is it also difficult for you to find the most significant one that you might have accomplished, or is there something that you feel very glad you were able to participate in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think it's possible—

[Assistant] To find one?

[User] —to define it in those terms.

[Assistant] Is it also difficult for you to find the most significant one that you might have accomplished, or is there something that you feel very glad you were able to participate in?

[User] The answer, I think, is it's hard to grade your own paper, and it's hard to know what you've done that twenty-five years from now will turn out to be important. Often what people think is important in the short term turns out to be unimportant in the long term, and often the thing since you don't think much about it in the short term leads somebody to think about something else, and so it's sort of suddenly your technical grandson or great-grandson, or at least the technical idea that's traced back like that, turns out to be very important.\n\n I suppose from the public's standpoint, the investigation of the Challenger accident was probably something that was very interesting and probably turned out to save some lives in the long run. I don't know. It's a hard question to ask. It's actually an easy question to ask.\n\n I think that the other thing is that there are people with different personalities will react to these things, these kind of questions, differently, I think. Some people are more lacking in humility than others and they're inclined to put their own efforts in a somewhat inflated package, and others are less likely to do so, perhaps because they're aware of the frailties of human nature. I can't answer that any further. I'm not a philosopher either.

[Assistant] You've worked with so many people through all these years. Those that you met, were there some that you remember of having such a significant impact on how you thought or helped formulate what you thought later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. But I think that whenever you work with people, you learn something from them, even from the students. So I would prefer not to name any specific names, but I want you to understand I am beholden to probably thousands of people who helped teach me things.

[Assistant] All those students that you have and had, were they aware of all your involvement in all these different areas when they'd take your classes?

[User] Some were and some weren't. I tried to arrange things so I never missed a class. However, I often would arrange things so that I would be out of town while they had the examination. Once in a while you couldn't do that. Of course, when I was department head during Challenger investigation, I decided I couldn't teach anyway. It takes me too long to write lectures. So at that time I was not teaching at all anyway, so it didn't make any difference. I had good people working for me in the department, so I could wander off and they probably would never miss me until a signature was needed or something.

[Assistant] Sometimes an important signature.

[User] Possibly, yes. Payrolls are important.

[Assistant]
That's what I was thinking of, yes. [Laughter] So many firsts have happened in the space industry while you have been alive, and so many of those you've touched one way or the other, especially in those last twenty, thirty years.

When you first started, did you have any idea that the short time you were going to spend at MIT would develop into this long career with those—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. At the time I was working as a designer, and I figured that supersonic flight was going to be important, that I'd come here for a year or so and learn something about supersonic flight, then go back and be a designer and see what happened, but it didn't work out that way. It's been very interesting. One of the things, of course, is that the young people are interested in new things, so that you can't help but be forced to think about new things in a much more continuous way than if you didn't have students around. They help keep your mind open about things. So that's a great plus for being in the university environment.\n\n As far as—well, I've seen some very interesting—I don't know. In the question you ask, one of the early wind tunnel tests I did was associated, when I first came to MIT, was with McDonnell Company-sponsored twin jet airplane, and then later on that turned out to be the F-4 [Phantom], which was one of the most—I think more of those have been built than any other fighter plane in the world, probably, around 5,000 or more. So it's kind of interesting to see that. It's always fun to see something you've worked on fly. I don't care whether it's a Space Shuttle or the Apollo or the B-1 [Lancer] or the B-2 [Spirit] or the F-15 [Eagle], it's always fun. You say, "You know, I've got a thumbprint on that." But I think if you haven't done it, you can't appreciate it, I suppose. Maybe you can. It's hard to know.

[Assistant] In all those travels, were you able to go to the launches to see?

[User] I have been to launches, yes. I can arrange that.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] I haven't been to one recently. I was at the first Space Shuttle launch, then the second.

[Assistant] It must have been a special thrill for you to see those engines.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have been to launches, yes. I can arrange that.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] I haven't been to one recently. I was at the first Space Shuttle launch, then the second.

[Assistant] It must have been a special thrill for you to see those engines.

[User] Well, I think in one sense it was more of a relief, because you sit around the table and Lovelace would say, "Is it safe to go?" And you'd say, "Yes, let's go." Then you thought about all the things that go wrong, and hope that none of them do. So it's exciting, but also it's a little bit of a relief. I mean, there are people in there, after all. That goes with the territory.

[Assistant] And that was from the first time you saw a Shuttle launch to the first time that you saw—or the only time when you watched Sputnik that night, so much had happened in between that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I think so. Maybe we accomplished something; we don't know.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Carol if she had any questions for you.

I do. I have a few.

[User] That's a—

[Assistant] This is mostly notes. Going back—and my questions will probably jump around a little bit.

[User] That's all right. I jumped around.

[Assistant] Going back, you mentioned that you worked on an essay tied in with the Vanguard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's all right. I jumped around.

[Assistant] Going back, you mentioned that you worked on an essay tied in with the Vanguard.

[User]
What was your essay specifically about, if you remember details of that?

It seemed to me it was something relatively elementary. I think that what I was doing was comparing the energy that something had in orbit, when you work it against gravity, to the energy that if you dug a hole straight down to the center of the earth, would you accumulate the same amount of energy going inward, falling, as you had to put into it to get out, to get into orbit. Something like that.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] Well, yes. Thank you.

[Assistant] That was worth a television set.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
What was your essay specifically about, if you remember details of that?

It seemed to me it was something relatively elementary. I think that what I was doing was comparing the energy that something had in orbit, when you work it against gravity, to the energy that if you dug a hole straight down to the center of the earth, would you accumulate the same amount of energy going inward, falling, as you had to put into it to get out, to get into orbit. Something like that.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] Well, yes. Thank you.

[Assistant] That was worth a television set.

[User] That was worth a television set.

[Assistant] You talked about your work on the Space Shuttle main engines and that it was a relief to see them go up and that everything was okay. Were you involved at all when there was the one flight that ended up having the abort to orbit after some problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. Thank you.

[Assistant] That was worth a television set.

[User] That was worth a television set.

[Assistant] You talked about your work on the Space Shuttle main engines and that it was a relief to see them go up and that everything was okay. Were you involved at all when there was the one flight that ended up having the abort to orbit after some problems?

[User] I was involved in the investigation after that, yes. That was a gutsy thing to do, but it was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] Had that been something that in your early studies on the main engines that you had looked at? When you then looked at the problem after the flight, did you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved in the investigation after that, yes. That was a gutsy thing to do, but it was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] Had that been something that in your early studies on the main engines that you had looked at? When you then looked at the problem after the flight, did you—

[User] Well, you sort of try to think about all these things. The real problems you have are not the problems you anticipate. The real problems you have are something dumb that you don't anticipate, that leaps up and bites you in the arm or someplace. So we worried about these various things. If I recall correctly, that was a decision was whether a sensor was working correctly or not. That was the basis of this. The reason that finally the controller on the ground decided, based on several other pieces of information, that it was possibly the sensor and therefore let's go for it, as opposed to the fact that if all the other information had been negative, why, then they would have had to not do that. But most of these things you work out.\n\n The other thing you have to do is, you have to practice all kinds of terrorizing situations, shall I say, and the reason you have to practice all these things is not so much that the ones you're practicing will come up, they may, but it's the idea of problem-solving on the fly. Don't be paralyzed by these things. So that's a very important thing, is to have these rehearsals and these rehearsals and have somebody intentionally screw something up. Then you have to work your way through it. So sooner or later, somebody has to make a decision that is a difficult one to make, but if you had enough practice at this, at least you understand the risks that are involved, and you have a lot of help from a lot of people, some of which is real help and some of which is not much help at all. But the practicing is important. I don't know if that's clear or not.

[Assistant] I think it's proved out in the flights, in that most of them have been so successful.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Practice pays off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. In fact, that's one of the reasons it's so expensive, because you have all these people. The question is, how can you do this without all these people? Of course, the computer wizards say that's easy; you just have a computer. If you have a computer at home, you're not sure it's that easy after all.

[Assistant] Yes, the computer's only as smart as the person who tells it—

[User] Right. And therefore, but only as smart as the person who tells it really is and not as smart as they think they are. In my experience, the computer is great as long as everything is going just exactly the way—you checked in to come in here on the airline and everything was fine. But there have been times you got on an airplane to go somewhere and things weren't fine. Then things really screwed up. That's the difficultly with the smart person making the codes. They've got to anticipate some of these other things.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] And they don't always do it well. Grumble, grumble. What's your next question, Carol?

[Assistant] You mentioned hearing about the Challenger accident and then going up and watching it on television. But when were you actually invited to be on the commission? How did that come about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've done this on occasion, yes, whenever asked. I don't make a point of going down there and asking to do it.

[Assistant] One of the most recent times, I guess, was '93, you spoke to a House Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was this an invitation as well?

[User] This was the outcome of the study that I was talking about, "Aeronautics in the 21st Century." They invited me down there, so I went down and talked to them.

[Assistant] And how were your plans and your ideas received?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was this an invitation as well?

[User] This was the outcome of the study that I was talking about, "Aeronautics in the 21st Century." They invited me down there, so I went down and talked to them.

[Assistant] And how were your plans and your ideas received?

[User] I think that, by and large, they were receptive. As I said, Mr. Goldin was receptive. The aeronautics budget was increased as a consequence of that, so you can't knock that.

[Assistant] No. They may be inviting you more often. Or maybe you'll be suggested to go down and talk more often, anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was the outcome of the study that I was talking about, "Aeronautics in the 21st Century." They invited me down there, so I went down and talked to them.

[Assistant] And how were your plans and your ideas received?

[User] I think that, by and large, they were receptive. As I said, Mr. Goldin was receptive. The aeronautics budget was increased as a consequence of that, so you can't knock that.

[Assistant] No. They may be inviting you more often. Or maybe you'll be suggested to go down and talk more often, anyway.

[User] If they do, they do.

[Assistant] Your work here is officially—you're officially retired, but, of course, you spend your time at MIT. Do you have lots of projects that you'll be working on in the future or do you just take them as they come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that, by and large, they were receptive. As I said, Mr. Goldin was receptive. The aeronautics budget was increased as a consequence of that, so you can't knock that.

[Assistant] No. They may be inviting you more often. Or maybe you'll be suggested to go down and talk more often, anyway.

[User] If they do, they do.

[Assistant] Your work here is officially—you're officially retired, but, of course, you spend your time at MIT. Do you have lots of projects that you'll be working on in the future or do you just take them as they come?

[User] Well, I have one doctoral student that I am still working with closely, and then I am in charge of the wind tunnel. You can look out the window and see that rusting thing over there. And I'm in charge of that. So we get a number of interesting things to do that are related to that. My experience—let me put it this way. I've often encountered people who said, "Gee, I've never been so busy in my life since I retired." I don't know whether that's true or not, but I know in my own case I'm slower now, I make more mistakes, it takes longer to do things right. So it just seems like I'm busier, actually. I don't know that I am or not. I probably am not, actually, but it seems that way. That's probably the natural way that it is.

[Assistant] So much of what you've been able to accomplish seemed to result from so many talents that meshed together—your teaching skills and your research skills, your advisory talents. Was there one area more than others that you enjoyed doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's important in engineering design, it's important in space, it's important in life. So, okay.

[Assistant] We certainly thank you for your time. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we close?

[User] No, but I'll think of it at two o'clock in the morning and I'll call you up.

[Assistant] You do that. You do that, and we'll turn the recorder on if we can find it. [Laughter] We thank you again.

[User] You're quite welcome. I hope you find it helpful or interesting or whatever—

[Assistant] All the above.\n\n [


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s M-A-R-Y middle name: L-Y-N-N last name: R-I-T-Z-E-N-T-H-A-L-E-R. And I’m the chief of the conservation lab at the National Archives.

[Assistant] Ok, well, first, congratulations on your retirement next week.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] I'm so happy to be able to get this in before you left. We’re going to start with some general questions and we’ll ease into your National Archives career. But first can you give me a little brief bio—where were you born, where did you go to school?

[User] Ok, I grew up in Michigan, near Detroit, and I went to Michigan State University, Wayne State University and at Wayne State, I got a degree in Library Science as well as a specialty in Archives Administration. I moved to Chicago and worked in the manuscript department at the University of Illinois at Chicago, which is where I really got my interest in conservation and bookbinding. I studied for over 12 years with a local well-known binder, Bill Anthony, who came to Chicago from Ireland and studied with him for quite a long time. And then I went to the Society of American Archivists, where I ran a couple of NEH-funded programs, one on conservation of archival materials. And the next project was on caring for photographic materials. So, that included workshops and doing site visits and assessments and developing a couple of manuals that were published. And then I came to the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you explain how you got your job at the National Archives?