[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First year was fine other than, you know, a short digestive issues. But, it was fine.

[Assistant] Malaria wasn't a problem where you were?

[User] No. The second year I got hepatitis. The first, right toward the time I was going home.

[Assistant] During the first year, there must have been breaks when you took some vacation. And what do you do?

[User] I went to the north of Argentina. Salta. That was maybe 12 to 14 hour bus ride. So and of course, that was a major change in culture. And very interesting to you there. You know, and I went to Brazil, I think that first year I went to to Rio at some point. Well, I think about it. It's my first year. My parents came down, I guess. And so I was getting some of the capitals of South America.

[Assistant] So the three of them came down here with the we able to take them out to San Lorenzo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The second year I got hepatitis. The first, right toward the time I was going home.

[Assistant] During the first year, there must have been breaks when you took some vacation. And what do you do?

[User] I went to the north of Argentina. Salta. That was maybe 12 to 14 hour bus ride. So and of course, that was a major change in culture. And very interesting to you there. You know, and I went to Brazil, I think that first year I went to to Rio at some point. Well, I think about it. It's my first year. My parents came down, I guess. And so I was getting some of the capitals of South America.

[Assistant] So the three of them came down here with the we able to take them out to San Lorenzo.

[User] We we we didn't go there. Yeah. I felt that their time was short. And my interests such as well, I wanted to show the beam and the prize and so. Yeah, yeah. And rather than go to someone else or

[Assistant] Do any of the three of them speak Spanish at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to the north of Argentina. Salta. That was maybe 12 to 14 hour bus ride. So and of course, that was a major change in culture. And very interesting to you there. You know, and I went to Brazil, I think that first year I went to to Rio at some point. Well, I think about it. It's my first year. My parents came down, I guess. And so I was getting some of the capitals of South America.

[Assistant] So the three of them came down here with the we able to take them out to San Lorenzo.

[User] We we we didn't go there. Yeah. I felt that their time was short. And my interests such as well, I wanted to show the beam and the prize and so. Yeah, yeah. And rather than go to someone else or

[Assistant] Do any of the three of them speak Spanish at that time?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you get that role reversal that occurs where your parents now suddenly are on your turf.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We we we didn't go there. Yeah. I felt that their time was short. And my interests such as well, I wanted to show the beam and the prize and so. Yeah, yeah. And rather than go to someone else or

[Assistant] Do any of the three of them speak Spanish at that time?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you get that role reversal that occurs where your parents now suddenly are on your turf.

[User] Yes. What a shock. Asking me for advice.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it must have felt good. So that was doing between first and second year. They can, uh. Now let's see, you felt pretty much finished up the first year. You're living in San Lorenzo, but your work focuses over in with the agricultural agent. And severance always runs. And so at that point what you would achieve was a little coaching and sort of meant going along with his agent. The technical seems to have gotten lost in the next year. We had a do you have any obligation to touch base with him or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you get that role reversal that occurs where your parents now suddenly are on your turf.

[User] Yes. What a shock. Asking me for advice.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it must have felt good. So that was doing between first and second year. They can, uh. Now let's see, you felt pretty much finished up the first year. You're living in San Lorenzo, but your work focuses over in with the agricultural agent. And severance always runs. And so at that point what you would achieve was a little coaching and sort of meant going along with his agent. The technical seems to have gotten lost in the next year. We had a do you have any obligation to touch base with him or.

[User] No, it was left up to me to establish that relationship and to end. Yes, OK. Yeah. And I don't know what his original. Our objectives were what he was instructed to do and not to further his Bolivian superior.

[Assistant] Yeah, what about that? What about others in the group? What was their experience with technicals? Because that was supposedly the heart of the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. What a shock. Asking me for advice.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it must have felt good. So that was doing between first and second year. They can, uh. Now let's see, you felt pretty much finished up the first year. You're living in San Lorenzo, but your work focuses over in with the agricultural agent. And severance always runs. And so at that point what you would achieve was a little coaching and sort of meant going along with his agent. The technical seems to have gotten lost in the next year. We had a do you have any obligation to touch base with him or.

[User] No, it was left up to me to establish that relationship and to end. Yes, OK. Yeah. And I don't know what his original. Our objectives were what he was instructed to do and not to further his Bolivian superior.

[Assistant] Yeah, what about that? What about others in the group? What was their experience with technicals? Because that was supposedly the heart of the program.

[User] Yeah, very little interaction. From what I can gather. It was what I remember. Between those people and volunteers. It seemed like a weak link for one reason or another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's get you into the second year now and what happens, particularly in people who could as you go into the second year, you you really have spent the first year learning the language and maybe a little bit about your community. But then as you went through the second year, you say, well, I know in about a year I'm going home, but before then, by God, I'm going to achieve X, Y or Z. Does that occur to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was left up to me to establish that relationship and to end. Yes, OK. Yeah. And I don't know what his original. Our objectives were what he was instructed to do and not to further his Bolivian superior.

[Assistant] Yeah, what about that? What about others in the group? What was their experience with technicals? Because that was supposedly the heart of the program.

[User] Yeah, very little interaction. From what I can gather. It was what I remember. Between those people and volunteers. It seemed like a weak link for one reason or another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's get you into the second year now and what happens, particularly in people who could as you go into the second year, you you really have spent the first year learning the language and maybe a little bit about your community. But then as you went through the second year, you say, well, I know in about a year I'm going home, but before then, by God, I'm going to achieve X, Y or Z. Does that occur to you?

[User] Well, yeah, I still was hungering for something structured to do. And so I got into a couple of things

[Assistant] Talking about going into your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, very little interaction. From what I can gather. It was what I remember. Between those people and volunteers. It seemed like a weak link for one reason or another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's get you into the second year now and what happens, particularly in people who could as you go into the second year, you you really have spent the first year learning the language and maybe a little bit about your community. But then as you went through the second year, you say, well, I know in about a year I'm going home, but before then, by God, I'm going to achieve X, Y or Z. Does that occur to you?

[User] Well, yeah, I still was hungering for something structured to do. And so I got into a couple of things

[Assistant] Talking about going into your second year?

[User] Yeah, I started working more with Project and so through the bad guy and so that was helpful. We were able to bring animals down from the states and get them scattered around the community and that was a short term success or most successful project. And then something came up that really interested me and that was working in study in an orphanage. And there was a German volunteer in town there who was stationed at the orphanage, who had developed a friendship with who. I worked with results from a class that became a place where I could put energy on, are structured in a structured way.

[Assistant] And you communicated with him or her in German?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I started working more with Project and so through the bad guy and so that was helpful. We were able to bring animals down from the states and get them scattered around the community and that was a short term success or most successful project. And then something came up that really interested me and that was working in study in an orphanage. And there was a German volunteer in town there who was stationed at the orphanage, who had developed a friendship with who. I worked with results from a class that became a place where I could put energy on, are structured in a structured way.

[Assistant] And you communicated with him or her in German?

[User] No, in English.

[Assistant] In English.

[User] Or Spanish. Oh, actually, I think it was in Spanish. Yeah, it was weird.

[Assistant] And what was the role that you developed at the orphanage?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, in English.

[Assistant] In English.

[User] Or Spanish. Oh, actually, I think it was in Spanish. Yeah, it was weird.

[Assistant] And what was the role that you developed at the orphanage?

[User] Well, developing recreational programs and tutoring and teaching some English and just being kind of a big brother in some ways.

[Assistant] How many kids were at the orphanage or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or Spanish. Oh, actually, I think it was in Spanish. Yeah, it was weird.

[Assistant] And what was the role that you developed at the orphanage?

[User] Well, developing recreational programs and tutoring and teaching some English and just being kind of a big brother in some ways.

[Assistant] How many kids were at the orphanage or.

[User] Oh, I remember maybe 30 or so.

[Assistant] And was it a church run?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, developing recreational programs and tutoring and teaching some English and just being kind of a big brother in some ways.

[Assistant] How many kids were at the orphanage or.

[User] Oh, I remember maybe 30 or so.

[Assistant] And was it a church run?

[User] Yeah, it was run by nuns and they handled that. Think the girls and the strong volunteer and I got involved with the boys. What age range are I'd say maybe age seven and eight up through 14, 15.

[Assistant] Now, where's the orphanage located?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I remember maybe 30 or so.

[Assistant] And was it a church run?

[User] Yeah, it was run by nuns and they handled that. Think the girls and the strong volunteer and I got involved with the boys. What age range are I'd say maybe age seven and eight up through 14, 15.

[Assistant] Now, where's the orphanage located?

[User] In Tarija.

[Assistant] In Tarija. Did you consider at that point as this emerged, do you consider moving to Tarija?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was run by nuns and they handled that. Think the girls and the strong volunteer and I got involved with the boys. What age range are I'd say maybe age seven and eight up through 14, 15.

[Assistant] Now, where's the orphanage located?

[User] In Tarija.

[Assistant] In Tarija. Did you consider at that point as this emerged, do you consider moving to Tarija?

[User] Yes, I did. And I did get an apartment. I asked for the official blessings of Peace Corps to transfer to the city. And they said no, because they already had adequate volunteers. They thought in theory.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Tarija.

[Assistant] In Tarija. Did you consider at that point as this emerged, do you consider moving to Tarija?

[User] Yes, I did. And I did get an apartment. I asked for the official blessings of Peace Corps to transfer to the city. And they said no, because they already had adequate volunteers. They thought in theory.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[User] And by then, a new program had come to town, a new Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] This time they're going to do it right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. And I did get an apartment. I asked for the official blessings of Peace Corps to transfer to the city. And they said no, because they already had adequate volunteers. They thought in theory.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[User] And by then, a new program had come to town, a new Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] This time they're going to do it right.

[User] Everyone trained to be tuberculosis clinicians, OK? And so they all became doctors and medicos. And they were in all these villages around there. They were rural programs. So there were two that came into my town, some of them. So, you know, and various towns in my area as well as all around. And so, you know, 35 or 40 volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was health education as well as


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And by then, a new program had come to town, a new Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] This time they're going to do it right.

[User] Everyone trained to be tuberculosis clinicians, OK? And so they all became doctors and medicos. And they were in all these villages around there. They were rural programs. So there were two that came into my town, some of them. So, you know, and various towns in my area as well as all around. And so, you know, 35 or 40 volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was health education as well as

[User] Some. It was mostly tuberculosis test and get TB shots and support from TB. And they were trained specifically for that. And I eat my heart out because they had a definite job to go.

[Assistant] And and Peace Corps set up an office in Tarija?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everyone trained to be tuberculosis clinicians, OK? And so they all became doctors and medicos. And they were in all these villages around there. They were rural programs. So there were two that came into my town, some of them. So, you know, and various towns in my area as well as all around. And so, you know, 35 or 40 volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was health education as well as

[User] Some. It was mostly tuberculosis test and get TB shots and support from TB. And they were trained specifically for that. And I eat my heart out because they had a definite job to go.

[Assistant] And and Peace Corps set up an office in Tarija?

[User] As a result of that program, to support that program.

[Assistant] And was it AID money mixed in there, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some. It was mostly tuberculosis test and get TB shots and support from TB. And they were trained specifically for that. And I eat my heart out because they had a definite job to go.

[Assistant] And and Peace Corps set up an office in Tarija?

[User] As a result of that program, to support that program.

[Assistant] And was it AID money mixed in there, too?

[User] Quite possibly, yeah.

[Assistant] And so now you're now you're a commuter. You you're living in San Lorenzo, actually working. And I keep to the Tarija.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite possibly, yeah.

[Assistant] And so now you're now you're a commuter. You you're living in San Lorenzo, actually working. And I keep to the Tarija.

[User] And I had a little apartment for the last few months.

[Assistant] In Tarija?

[User] Yeah. Obviously in Bolivia.

[Assistant] In spite of what Peace Corps had said that you shouldn’t move.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had a little apartment for the last few months.

[Assistant] In Tarija?

[User] Yeah. Obviously in Bolivia.

[Assistant] In spite of what Peace Corps had said that you shouldn’t move.

[User] So, you know, I'm still a resident of San Larenzo. And so with the possibility, you know, with a living place in Tarija. So I wasn’t there five nights out of the week. But more regularly.

[Assistant] So now through the second year. You you're you've always completely shifted focus now and you're really a social worker at an orphanage or it's a different role. And did you report you reported that back to Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Obviously in Bolivia.

[Assistant] In spite of what Peace Corps had said that you shouldn’t move.

[User] So, you know, I'm still a resident of San Larenzo. And so with the possibility, you know, with a living place in Tarija. So I wasn’t there five nights out of the week. But more regularly.

[Assistant] So now through the second year. You you're you've always completely shifted focus now and you're really a social worker at an orphanage or it's a different role. And did you report you reported that back to Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, yeah, I think so. Probably not to the degree that I most wanted. I really enjoyed it.

[Assistant] OK, so to see what value you then felt that you had, find your place as far as being a Peace Corps volunteer in Bolivia. So as you're coming near the end of your tour, are you at all tempted to extend because it seems like it took a while to find the niche, but there it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I think so. Probably not to the degree that I most wanted. I really enjoyed it.

[Assistant] OK, so to see what value you then felt that you had, find your place as far as being a Peace Corps volunteer in Bolivia. So as you're coming near the end of your tour, are you at all tempted to extend because it seems like it took a while to find the niche, but there it is.

[User] No, I've been getting first of all, I had hepatitis and I was hospitalized for a while. OK, well, we asked in Cochabamba and then I recovered in at the home of the the the doctor who was the head of that particular program in America. Yeah, no, he was from Uruguay, his wife. But they were basically the medical side of that. And so that was part of that. I was I was concerned about what I was going to do with the rest of my life and I wanted to get into that exploration. And I had been developing during the second year this vision program and the school that I told you about. Also, I taught English and it was outside of Summerlands. So I was getting the feeling that I wanted to study optometry a little bit to develop some further skills and in that area. Yeah. Well, you chose not to. Of course.

[Assistant] So actually, that second year, you were doing at least two things, I guess, but both sort of school based. As it turned out. OK. OK, well, the question I have for you is, did you let your folks know that you are hospitalized and did they say we're on the next plane? I mean, it must have been a little hairy to them.

[User] It may if I told them, I told them I was in good hands and things were going well. And I'm sure they were worried, but they didn't. They were always supporting me to stay as long as I wanted to.

[Assistant] Do, you know, the Peace Corps officially communicated with them that, you know, you you've been hospitalized and receiving the best care kind of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I've been getting first of all, I had hepatitis and I was hospitalized for a while. OK, well, we asked in Cochabamba and then I recovered in at the home of the the the doctor who was the head of that particular program in America. Yeah, no, he was from Uruguay, his wife. But they were basically the medical side of that. And so that was part of that. I was I was concerned about what I was going to do with the rest of my life and I wanted to get into that exploration. And I had been developing during the second year this vision program and the school that I told you about. Also, I taught English and it was outside of Summerlands. So I was getting the feeling that I wanted to study optometry a little bit to develop some further skills and in that area. Yeah. Well, you chose not to. Of course.

[Assistant] So actually, that second year, you were doing at least two things, I guess, but both sort of school based. As it turned out. OK. OK, well, the question I have for you is, did you let your folks know that you are hospitalized and did they say we're on the next plane? I mean, it must have been a little hairy to them.

[User] It may if I told them, I told them I was in good hands and things were going well. And I'm sure they were worried, but they didn't. They were always supporting me to stay as long as I wanted to.

[Assistant] Do, you know, the Peace Corps officially communicated with them that, you know, you you've been hospitalized and receiving the best care kind of thing?

[User] I don't know that.

[Assistant] OK, so you're coming out at the end of the tour and you really feel that you're ready to move on to something else in your life. Did the group gather at a what do you usually called end of service conference? You may have stopped by then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It may if I told them, I told them I was in good hands and things were going well. And I'm sure they were worried, but they didn't. They were always supporting me to stay as long as I wanted to.

[Assistant] Do, you know, the Peace Corps officially communicated with them that, you know, you you've been hospitalized and receiving the best care kind of thing?

[User] I don't know that.

[Assistant] OK, so you're coming out at the end of the tour and you really feel that you're ready to move on to something else in your life. Did the group gather at a what do you usually called end of service conference? You may have stopped by then?

[User] I don't think so.

[Assistant] OK, OK, so let's see if you can picture yourself now you're ready to leave. What was your sense of what you would achieve either personally or in terms of the community as you're leaving to touch you? It was a tough call.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know that.

[Assistant] OK, so you're coming out at the end of the tour and you really feel that you're ready to move on to something else in your life. Did the group gather at a what do you usually called end of service conference? You may have stopped by then?

[User] I don't think so.

[Assistant] OK, OK, so let's see if you can picture yourself now you're ready to leave. What was your sense of what you would achieve either personally or in terms of the community as you're leaving to touch you? It was a tough call.

[User] Well, I think the thing that I felt the best about was the friendships and relationships that I developed over the years with Bolivianos and with Bolivia. And I knew much more about the baby. I felt like I could take some of that knowledge and extend it in my future in one way or another to the help that objective, the Peace Corps and bring people together. Yeah. And so that felt good about I did not feel like I had been an important cog in the development of Bolivia. I felt that I had honestly tried in the best way I could to be a part of people's growth and happiness. And I held them in high respect that I really felt it was. I had had some remarkable experiences and I was grateful for the whole process.

[Assistant] And in leaving, what did you feel your next step was going to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so.

[Assistant] OK, OK, so let's see if you can picture yourself now you're ready to leave. What was your sense of what you would achieve either personally or in terms of the community as you're leaving to touch you? It was a tough call.

[User] Well, I think the thing that I felt the best about was the friendships and relationships that I developed over the years with Bolivianos and with Bolivia. And I knew much more about the baby. I felt like I could take some of that knowledge and extend it in my future in one way or another to the help that objective, the Peace Corps and bring people together. Yeah. And so that felt good about I did not feel like I had been an important cog in the development of Bolivia. I felt that I had honestly tried in the best way I could to be a part of people's growth and happiness. And I held them in high respect that I really felt it was. I had had some remarkable experiences and I was grateful for the whole process.

[Assistant] And in leaving, what did you feel your next step was going to be?

[User] My next step was to. Applied to various schools of optometry, you know, and I was accepted at one or two. And when the moment came, when I thought that was what I was going to follow, I came back to the states and as it turned out, that this that interest disappeared very quickly. And my main interest was to come back to the states finally to live in Madison for a while and to find what I wanted to study and to take it.

[Assistant] So by ‘69, the draft was no longer an issue. I forget


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the thing that I felt the best about was the friendships and relationships that I developed over the years with Bolivianos and with Bolivia. And I knew much more about the baby. I felt like I could take some of that knowledge and extend it in my future in one way or another to the help that objective, the Peace Corps and bring people together. Yeah. And so that felt good about I did not feel like I had been an important cog in the development of Bolivia. I felt that I had honestly tried in the best way I could to be a part of people's growth and happiness. And I held them in high respect that I really felt it was. I had had some remarkable experiences and I was grateful for the whole process.

[Assistant] And in leaving, what did you feel your next step was going to be?

[User] My next step was to. Applied to various schools of optometry, you know, and I was accepted at one or two. And when the moment came, when I thought that was what I was going to follow, I came back to the states and as it turned out, that this that interest disappeared very quickly. And my main interest was to come back to the states finally to live in Madison for a while and to find what I wanted to study and to take it.

[Assistant] So by ‘69, the draft was no longer an issue. I forget

[User] It was. And then along I was one year and I had taken my medical and I was probably within weeks of being called and the lottery and my number put me beyond what my grandpa needed.

[Assistant] Ok, and so it was yeah. It must have been a shock. I mean, or I don't know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My next step was to. Applied to various schools of optometry, you know, and I was accepted at one or two. And when the moment came, when I thought that was what I was going to follow, I came back to the states and as it turned out, that this that interest disappeared very quickly. And my main interest was to come back to the states finally to live in Madison for a while and to find what I wanted to study and to take it.

[Assistant] So by ‘69, the draft was no longer an issue. I forget

[User] It was. And then along I was one year and I had taken my medical and I was probably within weeks of being called and the lottery and my number put me beyond what my grandpa needed.

[Assistant] Ok, and so it was yeah. It must have been a shock. I mean, or I don't know.

[User] Yeah, it was a shock both ways to a shock to be getting my medical and being and to be facing going to Vietnam. And then the shock of getting a number that was beyond.

[Assistant] Yeah. Really folks living when you came back from Bolivia


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. And then along I was one year and I had taken my medical and I was probably within weeks of being called and the lottery and my number put me beyond what my grandpa needed.

[Assistant] Ok, and so it was yeah. It must have been a shock. I mean, or I don't know.

[User] Yeah, it was a shock both ways to a shock to be getting my medical and being and to be facing going to Vietnam. And then the shock of getting a number that was beyond.

[Assistant] Yeah. Really folks living when you came back from Bolivia

[User] Where where I'd grown up in that farming

[Assistant] Community and you weren't at all tempted to return to that community to live, you know, and do community development. So you pretty much set yourself the idea of Madison. Did you feel that you could make use or did you plan to make use of your I assume you were relatively bilingual by now? Was that was that part of the mix or the plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was a shock both ways to a shock to be getting my medical and being and to be facing going to Vietnam. And then the shock of getting a number that was beyond.

[Assistant] Yeah. Really folks living when you came back from Bolivia

[User] Where where I'd grown up in that farming

[Assistant] Community and you weren't at all tempted to return to that community to live, you know, and do community development. So you pretty much set yourself the idea of Madison. Did you feel that you could make use or did you plan to make use of your I assume you were relatively bilingual by now? Was that was that part of the mix or the plan?

[User] Yes. As it turned out, after trying to be a journalist and trying to learn to smoke and burning my nose or that I'd taken some courses as a special student when I immediately got here. OK, but then very soon after that, I went into an education program remembering how much I enjoyed. I scored my educational experiences, you know, and joining the educational culturally of the culturally diverse as I focus of the program. And so part of that was we came here in a bilingual peak here in Milwaukee and doing a report there and in various ways trying to use utilize the Spanish come.

[Assistant] Did you go on for an advanced degree? I got a master's in education, which then qualifies you for secondary teaching? Pretty much. Or elementary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where where I'd grown up in that farming

[Assistant] Community and you weren't at all tempted to return to that community to live, you know, and do community development. So you pretty much set yourself the idea of Madison. Did you feel that you could make use or did you plan to make use of your I assume you were relatively bilingual by now? Was that was that part of the mix or the plan?

[User] Yes. As it turned out, after trying to be a journalist and trying to learn to smoke and burning my nose or that I'd taken some courses as a special student when I immediately got here. OK, but then very soon after that, I went into an education program remembering how much I enjoyed. I scored my educational experiences, you know, and joining the educational culturally of the culturally diverse as I focus of the program. And so part of that was we came here in a bilingual peak here in Milwaukee and doing a report there and in various ways trying to use utilize the Spanish come.

[Assistant] Did you go on for an advanced degree? I got a master's in education, which then qualifies you for secondary teaching? Pretty much. Or elementary.

[User] I was targeted with elementary.

[Assistant] And with a subspecialty of English as a second language or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. As it turned out, after trying to be a journalist and trying to learn to smoke and burning my nose or that I'd taken some courses as a special student when I immediately got here. OK, but then very soon after that, I went into an education program remembering how much I enjoyed. I scored my educational experiences, you know, and joining the educational culturally of the culturally diverse as I focus of the program. And so part of that was we came here in a bilingual peak here in Milwaukee and doing a report there and in various ways trying to use utilize the Spanish come.

[Assistant] Did you go on for an advanced degree? I got a master's in education, which then qualifies you for secondary teaching? Pretty much. Or elementary.

[User] I was targeted with elementary.

[Assistant] And with a subspecialty of English as a second language or not?

[User] Personally I felt that way. But I didn't get any credential to that effect until later.

[Assistant] And then you settled in Madison and started to teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, you've got time. Don't worry, we'll feed you, okay?

[Assistant] Not a problem. It's very interesting.

[User] You see how strong that is? [Displays an example of the shuttle tile.]

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That's densified. I don't have a real one here to show you. They come in different odd shapes and everything else. But what happened is, some of this that was not densified came off, so then you densified and then you added RTV and you added some felt, and then you glued it in place. That's very nice of them to do for me.

[Assistant] That is very nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I graduated from college and I gave up the idea of going to Germany, because that was far away, and I’d have to brush up on my German and take courses in German. That would have been a nice adventure, but it was easier to go to MIT.

[Assistant] Wow, I don’t think I hear that statement very often: It was easier to go to MIT.

[User] And it was closer to my boyfriend too.

[Assistant] That was important at the time, I’m sure.

[User] It was, yes.

[Assistant] Just a sidenote. How many females did you find when you got to MIT in that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was closer to my boyfriend too.

[Assistant] That was important at the time, I’m sure.

[User] It was, yes.

[Assistant] Just a sidenote. How many females did you find when you got to MIT in that position?

[User] It was like when I was in graduate school, even at Hampshire as an undergraduate. The Women’s Movement was also another active movement at the time, equal opportunity for women. In fact, we were trying to get a constitutional amendment, the Equal Rights Amendment. That was also one of the social issues at the time, and one that failed.\n\n But I really felt like I was asserting myself for my equal rights to pursue academic studies, and at MIT in Tom McCord’s lab there were many women. My longtime friend and colleague Carle [McGetchin] Pieters was finishing up her PhD there. There were three or four students from Wellesley College [Wellesley, Massachusetts]; MIT had connections with Wellesley College. So there were a number. I was not alone.\n\n I was not alone, and Tom McCord encouraged me to work with instrumentation. He was building new instruments with different detectors and pushing the technology. He had a lab and it was a lot of fun. I didn’t feel like I was the only one; I was not the only lonely woman. We had a nice cohort of people and a great group to work with.

[Assistant] It makes, I guess, a firmer ground for all to see that all different types of people are involved, and everyone has an equal footing in that door. I believe while you were there that you had an opportunity to go to Hawaii and work in your adventure in astronomy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I realized I was very fortunate, that not everybody could afford to do that. I could still make my mortgage payments. I was fortunate.

[Assistant] It was rewarding in a lot of different ways.

[User] It was. Yes. Then the next day after the next press briefing, one of my education and outreach coordinators working for me had arranged to get Bill Haley and the Comets to come to JPL and perform, so we were dancing. The next day I was doing the jitterbug with [JPL Center Director] Charles Elachi the day after the Deep Impact spacecraft hit Comet Tempel 1.

[Assistant] How fun.

[User] So yes, that was fun.

[Assistant] He probably remembers that too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. Yes. Then the next day after the next press briefing, one of my education and outreach coordinators working for me had arranged to get Bill Haley and the Comets to come to JPL and perform, so we were dancing. The next day I was doing the jitterbug with [JPL Center Director] Charles Elachi the day after the Deep Impact spacecraft hit Comet Tempel 1.

[Assistant] How fun.

[User] So yes, that was fun.

[Assistant] He probably remembers that too.

[User] I remind him every time I see him. Yes, the adventures.

[Assistant] But as you mentioned, you were always working on proposals. So were you putting this one off into history, and working on the next one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They are. Right.

[Assistant] So here you are, so many years ahead, but still not having what you need.

[User] Right. Then by the time it flies, because it takes five years to develop it, you have to test it. “Fly as you test and test as you fly” is the mantra. It just takes a year. There’s no mass-producing a spacecraft, so what gets flown is not necessarily the latest technology.\n\n In fact, it’s interesting because on Deep Impact that spectacle of the comet with this big bright saturated spot like a bull’s-eye on the side of the comet is a spectacular picture, but you don’t see many copies of it anymore, and the reason is that we couldn’t [enlarge it]. We only had 1,000 by 1,000 pixels. I go to Dulles Airport and they often have pictures from Mars and planet pictures, great solar system exploration exhibits. Where is my Deep Impact [on display]? That was really spectacular. Hitting a comet that’s moving at 23,000 miles an hour and hitting it with another spacecraft is really pretty spectacular. The results, the images are spectacular, but you can’t blow them up, because then you start seeing the pixels, and it doesn’t look good.\n\n It was the most spectacular thing that a NASA mission had ever accomplished, but because of the limited technology—I still question now whether someone could somehow improve the resolution [using digital reconstruction].

[Assistant] Add that to that postretirement list you have that’s long and growing.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Because I don’t want to take up all your morning, let me ask you about your adventure to Antarctica. It’s very interesting for most people because that’s not a place where most people get to go. Were you there a year? Or just on the project for a year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I joined the Peace Corps because I think I was looking for a little bit of adventure and at the same time I wanted to do something that was good. So the Peace Corps sort of fit both of those requirements of mine, and I was not employed. I had just graduated from college, so it worked out very well.

[Assistant] And how did you find out about the Peace Corps?

[User] I had read about it in the newspaper and my brother actually gave me the application and I sent it in. So and then very shortly thereafter, I heard from the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And they offered you Colombia?

[User] They offered me Colombia. I was kind of surprised. I was hoping I would get Latin America because I'd studied Spanish in college. And what they offered was the physical education portion of the group, which I also liked because at the. I was coming out of college where I'd been involved in sports and, of course, I'd been involved in sports in high school as well. So I thought it was a pretty good mix.

[Assistant] Great. So what did your friends and your family say about you taking off for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had read about it in the newspaper and my brother actually gave me the application and I sent it in. So and then very shortly thereafter, I heard from the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And they offered you Colombia?

[User] They offered me Colombia. I was kind of surprised. I was hoping I would get Latin America because I'd studied Spanish in college. And what they offered was the physical education portion of the group, which I also liked because at the. I was coming out of college where I'd been involved in sports and, of course, I'd been involved in sports in high school as well. So I thought it was a pretty good mix.

[Assistant] Great. So what did your friends and your family say about you taking off for two years?

[User] My mother was delighted. She was a strong supporter of John Kennedy, and he was, you know, it was his effort, identified with him. So she liked it. And of course, at the time, there was a great enthusiasm for the Peace Corps, with just lots of nice newspaper articles about all the good young people that are going into the Peace Corps and how brave they were and what wonderful things they were going to do. So it was.

[Assistant] So it was good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They offered me Colombia. I was kind of surprised. I was hoping I would get Latin America because I'd studied Spanish in college. And what they offered was the physical education portion of the group, which I also liked because at the. I was coming out of college where I'd been involved in sports and, of course, I'd been involved in sports in high school as well. So I thought it was a pretty good mix.

[Assistant] Great. So what did your friends and your family say about you taking off for two years?

[User] My mother was delighted. She was a strong supporter of John Kennedy, and he was, you know, it was his effort, identified with him. So she liked it. And of course, at the time, there was a great enthusiasm for the Peace Corps, with just lots of nice newspaper articles about all the good young people that are going into the Peace Corps and how brave they were and what wonderful things they were going to do. So it was.

[Assistant] So it was good.

[User] It was good.

[Assistant] And where was your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mother was delighted. She was a strong supporter of John Kennedy, and he was, you know, it was his effort, identified with him. So she liked it. And of course, at the time, there was a great enthusiasm for the Peace Corps, with just lots of nice newspaper articles about all the good young people that are going into the Peace Corps and how brave they were and what wonderful things they were going to do. So it was.

[Assistant] So it was good.

[User] It was good.

[Assistant] And where was your training?

[User]
I was trained in El Paso, Texas, at what was then the University of Texas Western, which later became University of Texas El Paso. The training lasted roughly three months, and for me, it was helpful in a couple of respects. One was I had grown up in Virginia and went to a small men's college in Virginia, so I was sent on with this group, which was a much more diverse group of people than I was accustomed to. And I enjoyed that very much so the Texas Western experience was a good one. In retrospect, the folks there, I don't think, really knew what we were going to face in Peace Corps. So there was a sense of their sort of struggling around trying to find out what we should be doing and what we should be learning.

In the end, I think the Spanish portion of training was pretty good. Unfortunately, I don't think we were immersed enough because even though I'd had Spanish in college and I had three months of it in Texas, when I got to Colombia, I still found it very hard to utter things out in Spanish and understand what was going on. And I say that mindful that the Colombians speak good Spanish. They enunciate all their syllables and speak more or less a formal Spanish. So it, nevertheless, I spent about a year and or not, maybe not a year, but at least six months once I was on the job, sort of wandering around, speaking half English, half Spanish, and it took a while to get over that.

[Assistant] Well, I think language instruction has gotten a lot better in this country since the sixties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was good.

[Assistant] And where was your training?

[User]
I was trained in El Paso, Texas, at what was then the University of Texas Western, which later became University of Texas El Paso. The training lasted roughly three months, and for me, it was helpful in a couple of respects. One was I had grown up in Virginia and went to a small men's college in Virginia, so I was sent on with this group, which was a much more diverse group of people than I was accustomed to. And I enjoyed that very much so the Texas Western experience was a good one. In retrospect, the folks there, I don't think, really knew what we were going to face in Peace Corps. So there was a sense of their sort of struggling around trying to find out what we should be doing and what we should be learning.

In the end, I think the Spanish portion of training was pretty good. Unfortunately, I don't think we were immersed enough because even though I'd had Spanish in college and I had three months of it in Texas, when I got to Colombia, I still found it very hard to utter things out in Spanish and understand what was going on. And I say that mindful that the Colombians speak good Spanish. They enunciate all their syllables and speak more or less a formal Spanish. So it, nevertheless, I spent about a year and or not, maybe not a year, but at least six months once I was on the job, sort of wandering around, speaking half English, half Spanish, and it took a while to get over that.

[Assistant] Well, I think language instruction has gotten a lot better in this country since the sixties.

[User] Yes, I think that's true. I hope so.

[Assistant] I hope so as well. So you were in El Paso and then you flew. Did you fly directly from there to Bogota? How was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, thanks. I was rooming initially with an American who was in the binational center and teaching English.

[Assistant] Which is what?

[User] It was called the Colombo Americano. And he was gregarious guy from New York, and he liked to have parties and have a good time. So we would. He invited his class to come to have a party and Ello was in the class. That was kind of BYOB, bring your own bottle kind of thing we said, although we supplied a lot of rum and aguardiente and beer and Coke ourselves. But that was. And so they would come. And in Colombia, they do enjoy dancing. They do enjoy parties. So they came. And there was about 60 people there in our little apartment, all dancing the cumbia. And it was great fun and that's how I met Ello. She loved to dance and loves to dance, I should add, to this day.

[Assistant] Did you get married there or what was the courtship like as an American?

[User] Well, it was very sedate, you know, very, people don't do. At the time, you know, people were very conservative and they were always suspicious of Americans because they'd seen all the American movies. So it was not a real exciting sort of thing, but it was nice. And you know, we'd go out and go to movies and that kind of thing, often with other girlfriends or with her sister and, you know, sort of chaperoned. I never felt like I was really chaperoned, but there was.

[Assistant] Somebody was there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was called the Colombo Americano. And he was gregarious guy from New York, and he liked to have parties and have a good time. So we would. He invited his class to come to have a party and Ello was in the class. That was kind of BYOB, bring your own bottle kind of thing we said, although we supplied a lot of rum and aguardiente and beer and Coke ourselves. But that was. And so they would come. And in Colombia, they do enjoy dancing. They do enjoy parties. So they came. And there was about 60 people there in our little apartment, all dancing the cumbia. And it was great fun and that's how I met Ello. She loved to dance and loves to dance, I should add, to this day.

[Assistant] Did you get married there or what was the courtship like as an American?

[User] Well, it was very sedate, you know, very, people don't do. At the time, you know, people were very conservative and they were always suspicious of Americans because they'd seen all the American movies. So it was not a real exciting sort of thing, but it was nice. And you know, we'd go out and go to movies and that kind of thing, often with other girlfriends or with her sister and, you know, sort of chaperoned. I never felt like I was really chaperoned, but there was.

[Assistant] Somebody was there.

[User] Somebody was kind of around. Not much trouble you could get into anyway. We got engaged at the end of my stay and I went home, and now these are the old days, and got a job. And then I went back and got married in Manizales. So that was sort of the sequence of events.

[Assistant] And talk a little bit about her family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, who knew?

[User] Let's see. I was probably over there working in new careers or Pep or one of those, do you recall those?

[Assistant] I don't know. But anyway, similar afterwards. Let's just.

[User] I would add only that I was drawn to those jobs, I think, because of the Peace Corps experience. If I hadn't gone into Peace Corps and gotten a sense of humanity and people and the way people react, I think I would have gone in quite a different direction.

[Assistant] So you sought out that job when you came back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. I was probably over there working in new careers or Pep or one of those, do you recall those?

[Assistant] I don't know. But anyway, similar afterwards. Let's just.

[User] I would add only that I was drawn to those jobs, I think, because of the Peace Corps experience. If I hadn't gone into Peace Corps and gotten a sense of humanity and people and the way people react, I think I would have gone in quite a different direction.

[Assistant] So you sought out that job when you came back.

[User] I think I did. I wanted that kind of a job. I didn't want a job selling insurance or going to graduate school, so just interested in seeing what I could do to help out, you know, and I was interested in other people that needed help.

[Assistant] So just to go back to Peace Corps for a while, can you talk a little bit about what Manizales was like in the sixties? It seems like it was a pretty big town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would add only that I was drawn to those jobs, I think, because of the Peace Corps experience. If I hadn't gone into Peace Corps and gotten a sense of humanity and people and the way people react, I think I would have gone in quite a different direction.

[Assistant] So you sought out that job when you came back.

[User] I think I did. I wanted that kind of a job. I didn't want a job selling insurance or going to graduate school, so just interested in seeing what I could do to help out, you know, and I was interested in other people that needed help.

[Assistant] So just to go back to Peace Corps for a while, can you talk a little bit about what Manizales was like in the sixties? It seems like it was a pretty big town.

[User] Yes, it was a fairly big town. They thought of, and to this day, think of themselves as, you know, kind of a culturally nice town because they had these universities, they were the capital yet of a department, and they had, you know, formal theaters, music groups, sort of culturally nice things. And it was, of course, the seat of the Catholic Church there too as well. So Manizales is located about seven to eight thousand feet high in the Andes. It had a climate which some might love. It was a little too rainy for me, and to this day, I think it's a little too rainy, it'd get the rain off the Pacific. But it tended to be beautiful in the Andes. Cold at times, especially when it rained and at night too. But really a rather nice place. We didn't have the tropical heat that you would have on the coast of Colombia or in the Pacific rainforest.

[Assistant] So you weren't out in the boonies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did. I wanted that kind of a job. I didn't want a job selling insurance or going to graduate school, so just interested in seeing what I could do to help out, you know, and I was interested in other people that needed help.

[Assistant] So just to go back to Peace Corps for a while, can you talk a little bit about what Manizales was like in the sixties? It seems like it was a pretty big town.

[User] Yes, it was a fairly big town. They thought of, and to this day, think of themselves as, you know, kind of a culturally nice town because they had these universities, they were the capital yet of a department, and they had, you know, formal theaters, music groups, sort of culturally nice things. And it was, of course, the seat of the Catholic Church there too as well. So Manizales is located about seven to eight thousand feet high in the Andes. It had a climate which some might love. It was a little too rainy for me, and to this day, I think it's a little too rainy, it'd get the rain off the Pacific. But it tended to be beautiful in the Andes. Cold at times, especially when it rained and at night too. But really a rather nice place. We didn't have the tropical heat that you would have on the coast of Colombia or in the Pacific rainforest.

[Assistant] So you weren't out in the boonies.

[User] We weren't out in the boonies. That's correct. And any time we wanted to, we could go to a Chinese restaurant. At the time, it's much better now. There was the Chinese restaurant and then there were Colombian restaurants. That was about it. There was not an Italian restaurant in town, alas.

[Assistant] How was their Chinese restaurant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just an agreement, and that should help. The Colombians have a lot of misgivings about it. And cynicism as well, they might. But yes, it's been signed and I'm very hopeful.

[Assistant] What are they cynical about? They don't trust the FARC?

[User] They don't trust the FARC, exactly. And the many of them have bitter memories of, you know, family captured, tortured, killed. I mean it's hard to get over that. So there's, plus there's been an experience with FARC has never been good. And I think it's probably because FARC isn't that well organized within itself. So they'll declare a cease fire. But the next thing you know, there's over here. It's a large country and over here in this other jungle area miles away, they are, you know, they've broken the cease fire and they kidnapped somebody. Stuff like that.

[Assistant] So they really don't have the control.

[User] They don't have as much control as one would think. Plus, I guess the other thing that kind of bothers the Colombians. A lot of the people that committed crimes apparently going to get off scot free, as they say. So we'll see how it works out.

[Assistant] But maybe the violence will relent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don't trust the FARC, exactly. And the many of them have bitter memories of, you know, family captured, tortured, killed. I mean it's hard to get over that. So there's, plus there's been an experience with FARC has never been good. And I think it's probably because FARC isn't that well organized within itself. So they'll declare a cease fire. But the next thing you know, there's over here. It's a large country and over here in this other jungle area miles away, they are, you know, they've broken the cease fire and they kidnapped somebody. Stuff like that.

[Assistant] So they really don't have the control.

[User] They don't have as much control as one would think. Plus, I guess the other thing that kind of bothers the Colombians. A lot of the people that committed crimes apparently going to get off scot free, as they say. So we'll see how it works out.

[Assistant] But maybe the violence will relent.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That's part of reconciliation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don't have as much control as one would think. Plus, I guess the other thing that kind of bothers the Colombians. A lot of the people that committed crimes apparently going to get off scot free, as they say. So we'll see how it works out.

[Assistant] But maybe the violence will relent.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That's part of reconciliation?

[User] Yes, part of the reconciliation. There's going to be a national plebiscite on the whole thing, whether the public agrees to it or not. I'm not sure how that's going to work yet.

[Assistant] So you said in the sixties, the main economy was the university, coffee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That's part of reconciliation?

[User] Yes, part of the reconciliation. There's going to be a national plebiscite on the whole thing, whether the public agrees to it or not. I'm not sure how that's going to work yet.

[Assistant] So you said in the sixties, the main economy was the university, coffee.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is that still the case?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, part of the reconciliation. There's going to be a national plebiscite on the whole thing, whether the public agrees to it or not. I'm not sure how that's going to work yet.

[Assistant] So you said in the sixties, the main economy was the university, coffee.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is that still the case?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or maybe you mentioned, and textiles I think you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or maybe you mentioned, and textiles I think you said?

[User] The textiles have gone pretty much. When I was there, there was a large Colombian factory, which now lays vacant, kind of in the center of.

[Assistant] Textile factory?

[User] Textile factory. And then there was Arrow shirts, had a factory out at the end of town. Both of them are gone. And now they still make textile shirts, that kind of thing in Colombia, but I'm not sure where they're making it, they're not making it in Manizales.

[Assistant] So what do people do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The textiles have gone pretty much. When I was there, there was a large Colombian factory, which now lays vacant, kind of in the center of.

[Assistant] Textile factory?

[User] Textile factory. And then there was Arrow shirts, had a factory out at the end of town. Both of them are gone. And now they still make textile shirts, that kind of thing in Colombia, but I'm not sure where they're making it, they're not making it in Manizales.

[Assistant] So what do people do?

[User] A lot of jobs are connected with the university. Insurance, I suppose. And the business side of coffee. They do assemble refrigerators there, which is a Colombian brand, and they do a lot of an export, make metal wheels for cars.

[Assistant] So they've diversified. But coffee is still really important.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Textile factory. And then there was Arrow shirts, had a factory out at the end of town. Both of them are gone. And now they still make textile shirts, that kind of thing in Colombia, but I'm not sure where they're making it, they're not making it in Manizales.

[Assistant] So what do people do?

[User] A lot of jobs are connected with the university. Insurance, I suppose. And the business side of coffee. They do assemble refrigerators there, which is a Colombian brand, and they do a lot of an export, make metal wheels for cars.

[Assistant] So they've diversified. But coffee is still really important.

[User] Coffee is king in that area.

[Assistant] Is that where Juan Valdez was invented?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of jobs are connected with the university. Insurance, I suppose. And the business side of coffee. They do assemble refrigerators there, which is a Colombian brand, and they do a lot of an export, make metal wheels for cars.

[Assistant] So they've diversified. But coffee is still really important.

[User] Coffee is king in that area.

[Assistant] Is that where Juan Valdez was invented?

[User] Yes. Yes. And Valdez is a common Colombian name. The original Juan Valdez was a Cuban, actually.

[Assistant] There was actually a Juan Valdez?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the one they use for the advertisements, he and his mule. That was a Cuban. That was kind of a scandal.

[Assistant] That's funny.

[User] One of my friends is in charge of the collection of data for the department, and I should have asked him, should have prepared myself. What are they doing in Manizales these days? All these jobs, but they're. I would say there's active commerce. The unemployment is high. There's a lot of unemployment that's never recorded because people just give up and don't look, but as it is here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it's even worse there, and you do see a lot of young, able bodied people looking for jobs. There's a great underemployment so that university graduates are, you know, working as in restaurants and places like that. Those are the people that come to the U.S. legally or illegally looking for an opportunity. Oftentimes, they really are good people. It's just there's just nothing to do. And even in the larger cities in Colombia, which have absorbed a lot of people, there's a lot of unemployment.

[Assistant] Maybe with peace, if there is peace, economic development.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of my friends is in charge of the collection of data for the department, and I should have asked him, should have prepared myself. What are they doing in Manizales these days? All these jobs, but they're. I would say there's active commerce. The unemployment is high. There's a lot of unemployment that's never recorded because people just give up and don't look, but as it is here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it's even worse there, and you do see a lot of young, able bodied people looking for jobs. There's a great underemployment so that university graduates are, you know, working as in restaurants and places like that. Those are the people that come to the U.S. legally or illegally looking for an opportunity. Oftentimes, they really are good people. It's just there's just nothing to do. And even in the larger cities in Colombia, which have absorbed a lot of people, there's a lot of unemployment.

[Assistant] Maybe with peace, if there is peace, economic development.

[User] Yeah, I'm hopeful on the peace. I think it's a good opportunity if they make the most of it. It's not going to be perfect, they're going to have problems. But if they. And if they get peace, the economic opportunities will increase. One of the things I did in Colombia, sort of post. I'm interested in birds and the guy that was in charge of one of the local parks got me to teach children basically English so they could become guides, bird guides. And Colombia probably, Colombia has, I should say, the most species of birds. So I was. Ello and I both went up to the rainforest there where the, although it's a national kind of park, they still had grandfathered in farm families and we taught the kids English. It was fun. They were really good kids. After school, they'd come over and we'd teach them English and the boys would all get together and play soccer and the girls would talk to each other.

[Assistant] So I'm assuming your Spanish is good. You've maintained it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it's even worse there, and you do see a lot of young, able bodied people looking for jobs. There's a great underemployment so that university graduates are, you know, working as in restaurants and places like that. Those are the people that come to the U.S. legally or illegally looking for an opportunity. Oftentimes, they really are good people. It's just there's just nothing to do. And even in the larger cities in Colombia, which have absorbed a lot of people, there's a lot of unemployment.

[Assistant] Maybe with peace, if there is peace, economic development.

[User] Yeah, I'm hopeful on the peace. I think it's a good opportunity if they make the most of it. It's not going to be perfect, they're going to have problems. But if they. And if they get peace, the economic opportunities will increase. One of the things I did in Colombia, sort of post. I'm interested in birds and the guy that was in charge of one of the local parks got me to teach children basically English so they could become guides, bird guides. And Colombia probably, Colombia has, I should say, the most species of birds. So I was. Ello and I both went up to the rainforest there where the, although it's a national kind of park, they still had grandfathered in farm families and we taught the kids English. It was fun. They were really good kids. After school, they'd come over and we'd teach them English and the boys would all get together and play soccer and the girls would talk to each other.

[Assistant] So I'm assuming your Spanish is good. You've maintained it.

[User] I've maintained it. It's probably better than it was when I was a volunteer. But I'm not very good with languages I decided. But nevertheless, I have fun with it and I struggle along, refuse to give up.

[Assistant] And people understand you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm hopeful on the peace. I think it's a good opportunity if they make the most of it. It's not going to be perfect, they're going to have problems. But if they. And if they get peace, the economic opportunities will increase. One of the things I did in Colombia, sort of post. I'm interested in birds and the guy that was in charge of one of the local parks got me to teach children basically English so they could become guides, bird guides. And Colombia probably, Colombia has, I should say, the most species of birds. So I was. Ello and I both went up to the rainforest there where the, although it's a national kind of park, they still had grandfathered in farm families and we taught the kids English. It was fun. They were really good kids. After school, they'd come over and we'd teach them English and the boys would all get together and play soccer and the girls would talk to each other.

[Assistant] So I'm assuming your Spanish is good. You've maintained it.

[User] I've maintained it. It's probably better than it was when I was a volunteer. But I'm not very good with languages I decided. But nevertheless, I have fun with it and I struggle along, refuse to give up.

[Assistant] And people understand you?

[User] Yeah, they're very forgiving in that regard.

[Assistant] That's good. So you've talked a lot about Peace Corps' impact on you, giving you confidence, giving you, you know, directing you to the job, clearly finding a wife.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've maintained it. It's probably better than it was when I was a volunteer. But I'm not very good with languages I decided. But nevertheless, I have fun with it and I struggle along, refuse to give up.

[Assistant] And people understand you?

[User] Yeah, they're very forgiving in that regard.

[Assistant] That's good. So you've talked a lot about Peace Corps' impact on you, giving you confidence, giving you, you know, directing you to the job, clearly finding a wife.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or lifelong companion. So it's had a major impact on you as an individual.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they're very forgiving in that regard.

[Assistant] That's good. So you've talked a lot about Peace Corps' impact on you, giving you confidence, giving you, you know, directing you to the job, clearly finding a wife.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or lifelong companion. So it's had a major impact on you as an individual.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There are three goals to Peace Corps. One is to provide technical assistance where requested. Do you have any thoughts about your Peace Corps experience or overall, what Peace Corps did or didn't do for Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or lifelong companion. So it's had a major impact on you as an individual.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There are three goals to Peace Corps. One is to provide technical assistance where requested. Do you have any thoughts about your Peace Corps experience or overall, what Peace Corps did or didn't do for Colombia?

[User] Uh, my own experience, as I say, was a good one. Had we had training in slightly different areas, and it's nobody's fault because nobody knew, I think we would have been better off as a volunteer. If we'd have been kind of given the notion of looking broadly at your job, not worrying too much if people don't show up on time and accepting, you know, very limited circumstances where you had to work, I think that might have been helpful. But sometimes I'm a little concerned about Peace Corps being too, the current Peace Corps, just from what I've heard, being too protective of the volunteers. I certainly don't want any volunteer to get hurt or kidnapped or have anything bad happen to them, but it seems like they are very restricted in the way they go about things. The volunteers in Colombia now are assigned homes where to live, and they can't travel unless they tell somebody where they're going. It was quite different for us. I showed up in Manizales, my colleague and I showed up, and we had to find our own place and we didn't know, you know, where we're going to go. It was all. If we wanted to take a trip, we just went. I mean, it was really free, and I just wonder if the current Peace Corps volunteers aren't mothered a little too much. I guess I'd say something like that.

[Assistant] Your comment about being better prepared. It seems like from my own experience and everybody else's I've interviewed, everybody kind of made the job for themselves in different ways.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think that was my case too, and I figured it out that the university wasn't going to do anything soon, if ever, which isn't quite true. I decided I'd better find something else to do. And so the fellow that was the university guy kind of realized that too, and he was the guy that ushered me into the, you know, track and field guys, with the track and field guys. And then from that, other things worked out. So yes, I had to adapt the way I did things. I don't think I ever dreamed that I'd be going around teaching basketball and physical education at elementary schools. But that's what I ended up, because we were, you know, sort of supposed to be going to universities to make powerful teams and all that stuff.

[Assistant] Well, one thing leads to another.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] So the second goal is to promote a better understanding of the U.S. Do you think, based on your experience, that Colombians view Americans differently? You said they were suspicious of Americans because they saw movies.

[User] Yeah, that's at one level. Yes, that's certainly the case. We were expected to be handsome like Paul Newman and beautiful and all that stuff. But no, I think there was an expectation. But I think it was, I think it is wonderful that a lot of Colombians that would never have heard or seen Americans or met them, you know, firsthand and got to work with them directly. And I think they appreciated that opportunity, and I like to talk about how they ask you many questions about the States and what kind of people we were and what is this and what was California like.

[Assistant] Breaks down the stereotypes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] So the second goal is to promote a better understanding of the U.S. Do you think, based on your experience, that Colombians view Americans differently? You said they were suspicious of Americans because they saw movies.

[User] Yeah, that's at one level. Yes, that's certainly the case. We were expected to be handsome like Paul Newman and beautiful and all that stuff. But no, I think there was an expectation. But I think it was, I think it is wonderful that a lot of Colombians that would never have heard or seen Americans or met them, you know, firsthand and got to work with them directly. And I think they appreciated that opportunity, and I like to talk about how they ask you many questions about the States and what kind of people we were and what is this and what was California like.

[Assistant] Breaks down the stereotypes.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] Not everybody looks or acts like they are in the movies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] Not everybody looks or acts like they are in the movies.

[User] That's right, exactly. My own case, also I should mention that first I started out with my roommate from the binational center and then Irv Dubinsky was a roommate for a while. Plus, the other guy that started out in Manizales but got moved to another location, Dave Banki. Finally that sort of little group dissolved because Irv went one way, Dave went one way, and Barry, he went another place. So there I was, and all that was left was one guy that was a medical student. So he and I then went and got ourselves lodged in another house, and I lived with medical students the last part in Colombia.

[Assistant] Colombians?

[User] All Colombian.

[Assistant] So that was great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, exactly. My own case, also I should mention that first I started out with my roommate from the binational center and then Irv Dubinsky was a roommate for a while. Plus, the other guy that started out in Manizales but got moved to another location, Dave Banki. Finally that sort of little group dissolved because Irv went one way, Dave went one way, and Barry, he went another place. So there I was, and all that was left was one guy that was a medical student. So he and I then went and got ourselves lodged in another house, and I lived with medical students the last part in Colombia.

[Assistant] Colombians?

[User] All Colombian.

[Assistant] So that was great.

[User] Yeah, it was fun. They were nice guys. Good and bad memories, I guess. But they've since died. But one of the fellows really remembered because I took a serenade to Elonia in Colombia, and they still do it. You know, you take a serenade to your girlfriend and they sing these romantic songs outside, standing outside the house.

[Assistant] So you take a serenade?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All Colombian.

[Assistant] So that was great.

[User] Yeah, it was fun. They were nice guys. Good and bad memories, I guess. But they've since died. But one of the fellows really remembered because I took a serenade to Elonia in Colombia, and they still do it. You know, you take a serenade to your girlfriend and they sing these romantic songs outside, standing outside the house.

[Assistant] So you take a serenade?

[User] You take a serenade.

[Assistant] So the musicians are the serenade.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was fun. They were nice guys. Good and bad memories, I guess. But they've since died. But one of the fellows really remembered because I took a serenade to Elonia in Colombia, and they still do it. You know, you take a serenade to your girlfriend and they sing these romantic songs outside, standing outside the house.

[Assistant] So you take a serenade?

[User] You take a serenade.

[Assistant] So the musicians are the serenade.

[User] That's it, right. I just paid them. I just paid. But they had great fun picking out the songs and getting the musicians. It was one of those fun experiences, which they remembered to this day. And they all claim, well, I picked that song and.

[Assistant] That's why she fell for you, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You take a serenade.

[Assistant] So the musicians are the serenade.

[User] That's it, right. I just paid them. I just paid. But they had great fun picking out the songs and getting the musicians. It was one of those fun experiences, which they remembered to this day. And they all claim, well, I picked that song and.

[Assistant] That's why she fell for you, right?

[User] Right, right. Absolutely.

[Assistant] And you got married in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's it, right. I just paid them. I just paid. But they had great fun picking out the songs and getting the musicians. It was one of those fun experiences, which they remembered to this day. And they all claim, well, I picked that song and.

[Assistant] That's why she fell for you, right?

[User] Right, right. Absolutely.

[Assistant] And you got married in Colombia?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Did some of them come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. Absolutely.

[Assistant] And you got married in Colombia?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Did some of them come?

[User] They all scattered by that time, so not many of them. People that went to our wedding were nearly all her friends. Just a few of mine.

[Assistant] Good. So the third goal of Peace Corps is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans. So think about that just in your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Did some of them come?

[User] They all scattered by that time, so not many of them. People that went to our wedding were nearly all her friends. Just a few of mine.

[Assistant] Good. So the third goal of Peace Corps is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans. So think about that just in your life.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You've been involved in [inaudible] and clearly, it made you more interested in working with low income populations. Have you stayed involved in international things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all scattered by that time, so not many of them. People that went to our wedding were nearly all her friends. Just a few of mine.

[Assistant] Good. So the third goal of Peace Corps is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans. So think about that just in your life.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You've been involved in [inaudible] and clearly, it made you more interested in working with low income populations. Have you stayed involved in international things?

[User] In a way, yes. I mean, because through Friends of Colombia, you know, we brought students up here. We've had these updates on Colombia.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about Friends of Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You've been involved in [inaudible] and clearly, it made you more interested in working with low income populations. Have you stayed involved in international things?

[User] In a way, yes. I mean, because through Friends of Colombia, you know, we brought students up here. We've had these updates on Colombia.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about Friends of Colombia.

[User]
Friends of Colombia is a 501c3 nonprofit that we organized with, especially Bob Colombo should take a bow. And Arlene Chaston, who I know has been wonderful as a president. But we've probably given over a quarter of a million dollars now to projects in Colombia. It's all volunteer kind of thing. We've also done some things besides giving to projects in Colombia that we selected and encouraged in many cases. We've also done things such as Bob, at one time, organized a group of people to come in and talk with the ambassador of Colombia at the time about changing the image of Colombia. And it was particularly doing the difficult drug days, changing the image of Colombia and getting better hearing in the states on Colombia and Colombian activities.

And Arlene, during her reign, we've had several opportunities to work with the Colombian embassy. We organized a, I don't know if you'd call it a meeting, but at sort of the end of the worst part of the violence in Colombia, we got two hundred former volunteers and families to go to Cartagena, Colombia, and sort of demonstrate that it was safe. You know, it was a nice thing. So we all went to Cartagena and listened to Colombian officials and it was a good thing and a number of those folks have returned on their own. And it was a good example for other travel agencies that it can be safe. So and then we, for the. Colombia was on the Smithsonian list of countries that presented on the Mall.

[Assistant] For the Folk Festival.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Folk Festival, thanks. I couldn't get it out. But anyway, we helped them. We used our 501(c)(3) status to help them move money through to their contractors because they were not allowed to accept the money directly. So we helped them out there. Plus we provided a lot of people that, you know, man the exhibits, if you will.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. I didn't know that. That was quite a while ago, I guess?

[User] Yeah, it's been a while now. Like they even got, you know, Ello went. She was the translator for. The big business in Colombia these days are flowers. The flowers you buy at the Safeway, many about 75 percent, are from Colombia now. So as coffee begins to disappear as the only product of Colombia, they're growing lots of kinds of flowers. But anyway, she worked with a guy that was doing the flower exhibit and the ladies that were doing handicrafts.

[Assistant] So she was their translator.

[User] She did the translator. I did not. I did take her there and bring her back and encourage her, but I did not.

[Assistant] Well, there are lots of Spanish speakers, native Spanish speakers around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's been a while now. Like they even got, you know, Ello went. She was the translator for. The big business in Colombia these days are flowers. The flowers you buy at the Safeway, many about 75 percent, are from Colombia now. So as coffee begins to disappear as the only product of Colombia, they're growing lots of kinds of flowers. But anyway, she worked with a guy that was doing the flower exhibit and the ladies that were doing handicrafts.

[Assistant] So she was their translator.

[User] She did the translator. I did not. I did take her there and bring her back and encourage her, but I did not.

[Assistant] Well, there are lots of Spanish speakers, native Spanish speakers around.

[User] There are indeed.

[Assistant] So this has been really interesting. Is there anything else you want to talk about? I'm out of questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She did the translator. I did not. I did take her there and bring her back and encourage her, but I did not.

[Assistant] Well, there are lots of Spanish speakers, native Spanish speakers around.

[User] There are indeed.

[Assistant] So this has been really interesting. Is there anything else you want to talk about? I'm out of questions.

[User] Oh, you are, OK.

[Assistant] But feel free to, if I didn't ask a question that you want to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are indeed.

[Assistant] So this has been really interesting. Is there anything else you want to talk about? I'm out of questions.

[User] Oh, you are, OK.

[Assistant] But feel free to, if I didn't ask a question that you want to talk about.

[User] I would say, and Evelyn you've already said it for me, Peace Corps is a big part of my life. It changed I think the person that I am today and I gained a great deal from it, much more than I ever put into it. And I think most of the people that I talked to feel about the same. It changed their life. Lots of them went into international activities, AID and State Department and those things, and it really was a key thing. I guess the one thing I didn't mention early on, that I kind of thought perhaps I should, and it was probably true of you, too. In those early years, we felt very close and very important to the U.S. government. I mean, after all, when I got selected, I got a nice little letter from John Kennedy and after I completed my first year, I got another letter saying, oh, the Peace Corps is one of the best things we've done, and it was really, really nice and gave you a good lift.

[Assistant] I don't remember that. I'm a few years after you, so maybe they stopped doing that. But maybe I got it, I don't remember.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you are, OK.

[Assistant] But feel free to, if I didn't ask a question that you want to talk about.

[User] I would say, and Evelyn you've already said it for me, Peace Corps is a big part of my life. It changed I think the person that I am today and I gained a great deal from it, much more than I ever put into it. And I think most of the people that I talked to feel about the same. It changed their life. Lots of them went into international activities, AID and State Department and those things, and it really was a key thing. I guess the one thing I didn't mention early on, that I kind of thought perhaps I should, and it was probably true of you, too. In those early years, we felt very close and very important to the U.S. government. I mean, after all, when I got selected, I got a nice little letter from John Kennedy and after I completed my first year, I got another letter saying, oh, the Peace Corps is one of the best things we've done, and it was really, really nice and gave you a good lift.

[Assistant] I don't remember that. I'm a few years after you, so maybe they stopped doing that. But maybe I got it, I don't remember.

[User] We sure did. It was heady stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah, it was good. OK, well, thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say, and Evelyn you've already said it for me, Peace Corps is a big part of my life. It changed I think the person that I am today and I gained a great deal from it, much more than I ever put into it. And I think most of the people that I talked to feel about the same. It changed their life. Lots of them went into international activities, AID and State Department and those things, and it really was a key thing. I guess the one thing I didn't mention early on, that I kind of thought perhaps I should, and it was probably true of you, too. In those early years, we felt very close and very important to the U.S. government. I mean, after all, when I got selected, I got a nice little letter from John Kennedy and after I completed my first year, I got another letter saying, oh, the Peace Corps is one of the best things we've done, and it was really, really nice and gave you a good lift.

[Assistant] I don't remember that. I'm a few years after you, so maybe they stopped doing that. But maybe I got it, I don't remember.

[User] We sure did. It was heady stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah, it was good. OK, well, thank you.

[User] Thank you Evelyn. It was easier than I thought.

[Assistant]
Oh yeah.

This is part two to the Gale Gibson interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After thought.

[Assistant] After thought.

[User] After thought. One of the thing delightful things about my Peace Corps experience is I married Elonia. And since then we've had a steady train of nice Colombian visitors over the years, and they're always enthusiastic and very impressed with Washington. None of this blah, jeez, so what, kind of blasé stuff? They're delighted, and it's great fun having them. They're always just the best kind of guests. And it's gone on for this little visit for the lo these 50 years that we've been married. And it's really, I think both Ello and I have gotten a lot out of it, and I think the Colombians have too. Some of them have stayed for, you know, a week or two and visited Washington. They're always very impressed. And I think it's been a way for people who would never have had the opportunity to know Americans. They do it with us because although Ello is a Colombian, the rest of the family is pretty much your usual American and our neighbors and our friends. So it's been fun for them and friendships have developed even there. So I just wanted to throw that in as just another little side event.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were a lot of Colombian-American marriages. In fact, there were, I think at one time somebody told me that there'd been at least two hundred.

[Assistant] Of Peace Corps volunteers who married Colombians? Amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a lot of Colombian-American marriages. In fact, there were, I think at one time somebody told me that there'd been at least two hundred.

[Assistant] Of Peace Corps volunteers who married Colombians? Amazing.

[User] Yeah, but you've got to remember there were over 3,000 volunteers in Colombia. I mean, we got boys and girls and men and, you know, all kinds of combinations. But a few years back, I was talking to a university president and it turned out his sister had married an American Peace Corps volunteer, and they live in Cleveland. But he remarked, gee, well, that's one good thing the Peace Corps did. That was a lot of stable marriages. And that's kind of true because the marriages I know of, and we just did our 50th anniversary, but I know three or four others that have done it. So it's kind of a nice little side effect of the Peace Corps, these long term marriages.

[Assistant] Well, I think you think about it a lot more, right, when you actually have to move from one country to another. That's a different level of commitment than just meeting someone for a short time.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, I'm glad it worked out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It becomes very apparent. It’s one of these things that we hope to [avoid].

[Assistant] You don’t want another Hubble incident.

[User] You don’t want to be—I don’t mean forgotten, [but] you’re background when everything works well, because it’s [working]. It’s like when you switch [on] your computer, if it comes up, you don’t give it any thought because you can do everything you need to do. If it doesn’t, of course it’s a big challenge. We want to be background, but we also have a lot of work that we do to make sure that’s the case.

[Assistant] It’s an important part of the telescope.

[User] Indeed, yes.

[Assistant] If it doesn’t function you’re kind of in trouble.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You don’t want to be—I don’t mean forgotten, [but] you’re background when everything works well, because it’s [working]. It’s like when you switch [on] your computer, if it comes up, you don’t give it any thought because you can do everything you need to do. If it doesn’t, of course it’s a big challenge. We want to be background, but we also have a lot of work that we do to make sure that’s the case.

[Assistant] It’s an important part of the telescope.

[User] Indeed, yes.

[Assistant] If it doesn’t function you’re kind of in trouble.

[User] Yes, we would be, and that would be very apparent. I hope we continue to work to make sure it doesn’t.

[Assistant] I want to ask you, because I always try to be cognizant of time, it is actually straight-up noon. I don’t want to keep you too long. I wasn’t sure if you have meetings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Indeed, yes.

[Assistant] If it doesn’t function you’re kind of in trouble.

[User] Yes, we would be, and that would be very apparent. I hope we continue to work to make sure it doesn’t.

[Assistant] I want to ask you, because I always try to be cognizant of time, it is actually straight-up noon. I don’t want to keep you too long. I wasn’t sure if you have meetings.

[User] I don’t this afternoon. I don’t want to prolong it, to take more of your time.

[Assistant] No, it’s very interesting. A lot of this stuff people have not talked about. We’ve talked to some other people about different roles and how they were involved. We haven’t talked a lot about the science. There’s a lot that we haven’t covered. I did want to ask you, since you mentioned that you were the test conductor during that 36 hours, if you would talk about that. You did mention the one challenge was the stars here at JSC. Were there other challenges that you encountered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I had two of them. One was what I mentioned, starting those activities when the hurricane hit. I think bringing the SI teams [on site], saying, “Yes, we need to bring them and organize them,” and getting the five convoys, and then saying, “This is what we need to test.” I think that helped—[and showed we could continue testing]. After that day [it was decided], “Oh, well, we can do the mirror [tests] as well.” I do think that was a contribution.\n\n The other one, the closed loop testing, I was there for the 36 hours. I know I’m not supposed to [for normal operations]. In that moment it’s what you need to do, and everything was safe. I do think I was a driver for that [test] to happen, leading up to it, and then [during it,] making sure it did, and it was efficiently run. I do think those two I would highlight.

[Assistant] Were you up that whole time?

[User] Yes. I don’t think—I don’t know if I should—

[Assistant] That’s okay.

[User] Yes, once you are running it, you feel you want it to be done within the [allocated] time. As I said, I felt it like my test. [Though] I know it’s a team effort. I know it was.

[Assistant] But that was your baby, like you said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t think—I don’t know if I should—

[Assistant] That’s okay.

[User] Yes, once you are running it, you feel you want it to be done within the [allocated] time. As I said, I felt it like my test. [Though] I know it’s a team effort. I know it was.

[Assistant] But that was your baby, like you said.

[User] Yes. It’s not a long time in [the whole] period [of the Johnson test], you know what I mean?

[Assistant] Oh, yes, for 110 days or however long the test was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, once you are running it, you feel you want it to be done within the [allocated] time. As I said, I felt it like my test. [Though] I know it’s a team effort. I know it was.

[Assistant] But that was your baby, like you said.

[User] Yes. It’s not a long time in [the whole] period [of the Johnson test], you know what I mean?

[Assistant] Oh, yes, for 110 days or however long the test was.

[User] Right, right. To have that one time where you are running [the test you have planned]. I think we’d all be doing the same. I can imagine if you are responsible for a deployment or a launch and it’s taking whatever time, we would all do that. You can do your normal longer hours the rest of the time.

[Assistant] I think it’s understandable. Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you think we should or wanted to talk about today?