[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In retrospect, it's sort of interesting to think about because there was clearly no obligation for me to do this.

[Assistant] Were you paid?

[User] They did pay me the equivalent of about 12 bucks a month. So it was it wasn't a question of needing the extra money. I mean, that paid for a beer every once in a while.

[Assistant] Yeah, but what about the rural electrification project?

[User] Well, that that that that really wasn't going to even start at all until the following June, when the volunteers, the next crop was coming down from the States. So I knew that that was going to happen and I was basically given the leeway. So well do what you can on these other areas of, but we really want you to save your powder essentially for this next program.

[Assistant] So in effect, what Peace Corps staff sort of gave you a blank check.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did pay me the equivalent of about 12 bucks a month. So it was it wasn't a question of needing the extra money. I mean, that paid for a beer every once in a while.

[Assistant] Yeah, but what about the rural electrification project?

[User] Well, that that that that really wasn't going to even start at all until the following June, when the volunteers, the next crop was coming down from the States. So I knew that that was going to happen and I was basically given the leeway. So well do what you can on these other areas of, but we really want you to save your powder essentially for this next program.

[Assistant] So in effect, what Peace Corps staff sort of gave you a blank check.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It was go and do something, do something good. And that didn't disturb you or didn't disturb them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that that that that really wasn't going to even start at all until the following June, when the volunteers, the next crop was coming down from the States. So I knew that that was going to happen and I was basically given the leeway. So well do what you can on these other areas of, but we really want you to save your powder essentially for this next program.

[Assistant] So in effect, what Peace Corps staff sort of gave you a blank check.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It was go and do something, do something good. And that didn't disturb you or didn't disturb them.

[User] Apparently not.

[Assistant] And there must have been large numbers of volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It was go and do something, do something good. And that didn't disturb you or didn't disturb them.

[User] Apparently not.

[Assistant] And there must have been large numbers of volunteers.

[User] Yeah, my sense is that in, my memory is the following, that the state of Paraiba at that point, I remember doing the count. I think there were 152 townships in the state. And the year I arrived there were probably 120 volunteers, and it fell that year. I think that by the time my group came in and others had left, there were like only 60. So for one reason or another, that state had maybe they changed the direction of how they were doing programing. I wasn't really involved in understanding how this occurred.

[Assistant] But then it seems to me that the whole Harvard project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my sense is that in, my memory is the following, that the state of Paraiba at that point, I remember doing the count. I think there were 152 townships in the state. And the year I arrived there were probably 120 volunteers, and it fell that year. I think that by the time my group came in and others had left, there were like only 60. So for one reason or another, that state had maybe they changed the direction of how they were doing programing. I wasn't really involved in understanding how this occurred.

[Assistant] But then it seems to me that the whole Harvard project.

[User] Oh, it never had a singular focus at all.

[Assistant] In country.

[User] Right, in-country. As far as I know, I think it was taken. Here's great raw material.

[Assistant] We're talking about the Harvard group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it never had a singular focus at all.

[Assistant] In country.

[User] Right, in-country. As far as I know, I think it was taken. Here's great raw material.

[Assistant] We're talking about the Harvard group.

[User] Right. We ended up, I believe, in being in three different states. There was no single program. A lot of I think all of us ended up initially substituting for people who had been in the particular communities before. I know that the Redwoods took over from another volunteer. The Antonsons, who were in Catolé do Rocha, took over Joyce, Joyce and Frank. Joyce actually went to substitute her sister, who had been in that community. So talk about some nepotism. And then there were three other guys. Is that our number one two three four five six seven eight. I can't remember, maybe there were only eight of us, I should make a list at some point. Then three guys ended up all in the state of Rio Grande do Norte, just north of us all doing agricultural related types of activities. All, I believe, sort of co-op development was the main thing.

[Assistant] But the idea of handing over then, I mean, what the Athas had built must have been dissipated then because.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, in-country. As far as I know, I think it was taken. Here's great raw material.

[Assistant] We're talking about the Harvard group.

[User] Right. We ended up, I believe, in being in three different states. There was no single program. A lot of I think all of us ended up initially substituting for people who had been in the particular communities before. I know that the Redwoods took over from another volunteer. The Antonsons, who were in Catolé do Rocha, took over Joyce, Joyce and Frank. Joyce actually went to substitute her sister, who had been in that community. So talk about some nepotism. And then there were three other guys. Is that our number one two three four five six seven eight. I can't remember, maybe there were only eight of us, I should make a list at some point. Then three guys ended up all in the state of Rio Grande do Norte, just north of us all doing agricultural related types of activities. All, I believe, sort of co-op development was the main thing.

[Assistant] But the idea of handing over then, I mean, what the Athas had built must have been dissipated then because.

[User] Yeah, I tried to continue to work with the main. Hank Atha had identified this really nice farmer who was really helping him meet other people and doing the soy projects. But that was clearly not my bag. I mean, I had none of the technical background, nor quite frankly, the interest in working on it. So I continued to work with this particular Brazilian farmer named Mondico, but more with the eye of the fact that his farm was on the river and therefore would be somewhere that would be electrified in the future. So I knew that that would be something to work on, upcoming.

[Assistant] Did you report back to Peace Corps on any regular basis or did they just assume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hugh Smith would come around every few months. We would get into Recife and Joao Pessoa again, probably every month or two as well, for some form of some reason it was norm. We usually just didn't get off, you know, take a long weekend because it would take you about two days to get there anyway. So my memory is there were either specialized training programs in irrigation, for example, which we many of us took, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Within the community where you finally were teaching, what kind of acceptance was, what kind of reaction was there to you? How did people, who were you as far as they knew?

[User] Well, I think I think we learned to sort of get along pretty well. It was a bit lonely for the first five months because after about five months, or less than that, four months. Another project appeared out of nowhere and one guy was sort of slotted to come work with me. And he actually ended up doing a lot more work in irrigation. He was a guy who actually had knew something about irrigation and industrial design, and so he was. He moved in with me, essentially, and that was nice. But it was a bit lonely at the beginning. But as I, you know, I'm a very social animal and I got to know the people very well, and I started having no problem whatsoever fitting in. But, you know, it took a while. There's a period of just understanding who's who and what's what. Teaching was very important to get me into the community, though.

[Assistant] How did you figure out how to teach?

[User] I guess it's just in my blood. Again, here, think about this, what a great opportunity to teach people how to do a lesson plan, how to approach things. Since this wasn't my program, none of these were available to me, but I basically winged it. And I, you know, I come from my father, a teacher. So I guess maybe it's osmosis or something.

[Assistant] Well, in fact, learning to teach may be simpler than some people make it. Was there any suspicion of you, resistance to your being there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I think we learned to sort of get along pretty well. It was a bit lonely for the first five months because after about five months, or less than that, four months. Another project appeared out of nowhere and one guy was sort of slotted to come work with me. And he actually ended up doing a lot more work in irrigation. He was a guy who actually had knew something about irrigation and industrial design, and so he was. He moved in with me, essentially, and that was nice. But it was a bit lonely at the beginning. But as I, you know, I'm a very social animal and I got to know the people very well, and I started having no problem whatsoever fitting in. But, you know, it took a while. There's a period of just understanding who's who and what's what. Teaching was very important to get me into the community, though.

[Assistant] How did you figure out how to teach?

[User] I guess it's just in my blood. Again, here, think about this, what a great opportunity to teach people how to do a lesson plan, how to approach things. Since this wasn't my program, none of these were available to me, but I basically winged it. And I, you know, I come from my father, a teacher. So I guess maybe it's osmosis or something.

[Assistant] Well, in fact, learning to teach may be simpler than some people make it. Was there any suspicion of you, resistance to your being there?

[User] There was a little bit of suspicion, only from the standpoint that the cooperative movement was seen as some parts of northeastern Brazil as a sort of a Worker's Party leftist idea. But in fact, we were, most of the work that we were doing was in conjunction with a state sponsored group, and there was clearly sort of an agricultural and development approach that was being supported by the state government and the federal government. So we didn't, you know, we had to basically prove ourselves in the sense that we weren't out there trying to be actors of a leftist politics.

[Assistant] So there weren't the accusations of being CIA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess it's just in my blood. Again, here, think about this, what a great opportunity to teach people how to do a lesson plan, how to approach things. Since this wasn't my program, none of these were available to me, but I basically winged it. And I, you know, I come from my father, a teacher. So I guess maybe it's osmosis or something.

[Assistant] Well, in fact, learning to teach may be simpler than some people make it. Was there any suspicion of you, resistance to your being there?

[User] There was a little bit of suspicion, only from the standpoint that the cooperative movement was seen as some parts of northeastern Brazil as a sort of a Worker's Party leftist idea. But in fact, we were, most of the work that we were doing was in conjunction with a state sponsored group, and there was clearly sort of an agricultural and development approach that was being supported by the state government and the federal government. So we didn't, you know, we had to basically prove ourselves in the sense that we weren't out there trying to be actors of a leftist politics.

[Assistant] So there weren't the accusations of being CIA.

[User] And no, I mean, there were students coming back from the capital who, you know, would want to do that. But then the friends would tell them that didn't work with me and I was sort of a member of the community already.

[Assistant] Because the Vietnam thing was blowing up more and more to what extent people in that community were informed about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. Well, actually, it was. We were fairly way out. I mean, one of my better stories is about going to Fair Market Day in a neighboring community. And a little kid walked up to me and said in Portuguese, mister, are you Chinese? And I said, no, why do you ask? He said, well, I've heard that that the Chinese are very different from people. And the word people is the same as us, but it's where this is people. Rather, instead of using the word for us, he said, than us people. And he said, you're the most different guy I've ever seen in my life. It was about that time I developed my James Bond theory. And that was that people expected me to be different in some respects. And so it was OK to be different. It really was helpful for me psychologically to make that realization that, to the extent that I felt more comfortable and people felt more comfortable when I was able to have the stimulus and response be something they expected, that was very good. But when it wasn't, it was OK because they didn't expect it always to be the same. So that was a very, very helpful.

[Assistant] And you must have had a clear sense that no matter what, you were not going to become a Brazilian.

[User] Right. Except that nowadays people think I'm Brazilian. In fact, I became a Brazilian over time. I mean, I speak perfect Portuguese, and when I'm in Brazil, they can't tell. They know I'm not from their state, so they think I'm either from further north or further south. And I can sustain that maybe for five or 10 minutes. It's not a, I couldn't blend in.

[Assistant] Within the community and while you were teaching, this is still just the first four months of your service.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there Brazilians who became closer friends, mentors? Sometimes you meet someone who sort of becomes a bridge into the culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Except that nowadays people think I'm Brazilian. In fact, I became a Brazilian over time. I mean, I speak perfect Portuguese, and when I'm in Brazil, they can't tell. They know I'm not from their state, so they think I'm either from further north or further south. And I can sustain that maybe for five or 10 minutes. It's not a, I couldn't blend in.

[Assistant] Within the community and while you were teaching, this is still just the first four months of your service.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there Brazilians who became closer friends, mentors? Sometimes you meet someone who sort of becomes a bridge into the culture.

[User] Well, this this farmer who'd been introduced to me by Hank Atha was one of my closer contacts. His name was Mondico. A very, very nice gentleman. He was sort of, he was not in the center of things, clearly he wasn't a part of the local superstructure. He had a group of people who would listen to him as he tried to be helpful with the ideas that Hank had been doing with respect to introducing soy and other things like that. But no, I think I think where I built my contacts was really with the students, more with the students and with my fellow professors. I was I always felt I was a little bit. They were, the professors tended to be, or the professional people in town, and this is a small town. Probably two thousand people living actually in the community and another three thousand within, oh, 10 kilometer radius who were in the same township.

[Assistant] It wasn't a boarding school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there Brazilians who became closer friends, mentors? Sometimes you meet someone who sort of becomes a bridge into the culture.

[User] Well, this this farmer who'd been introduced to me by Hank Atha was one of my closer contacts. His name was Mondico. A very, very nice gentleman. He was sort of, he was not in the center of things, clearly he wasn't a part of the local superstructure. He had a group of people who would listen to him as he tried to be helpful with the ideas that Hank had been doing with respect to introducing soy and other things like that. But no, I think I think where I built my contacts was really with the students, more with the students and with my fellow professors. I was I always felt I was a little bit. They were, the professors tended to be, or the professional people in town, and this is a small town. Probably two thousand people living actually in the community and another three thousand within, oh, 10 kilometer radius who were in the same township.

[Assistant] It wasn't a boarding school.

[User] Oh no, no. But it was an it was an evening school. Classes started at around 6:00. So it was a six o'clock, seven o'clock, nine o'clock. There were four classes a night, usually 6:00 through 10:00, so the kids could work during the day.

[Assistant] It was a public school, not church run?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this this farmer who'd been introduced to me by Hank Atha was one of my closer contacts. His name was Mondico. A very, very nice gentleman. He was sort of, he was not in the center of things, clearly he wasn't a part of the local superstructure. He had a group of people who would listen to him as he tried to be helpful with the ideas that Hank had been doing with respect to introducing soy and other things like that. But no, I think I think where I built my contacts was really with the students, more with the students and with my fellow professors. I was I always felt I was a little bit. They were, the professors tended to be, or the professional people in town, and this is a small town. Probably two thousand people living actually in the community and another three thousand within, oh, 10 kilometer radius who were in the same township.

[Assistant] It wasn't a boarding school.

[User] Oh no, no. But it was an it was an evening school. Classes started at around 6:00. So it was a six o'clock, seven o'clock, nine o'clock. There were four classes a night, usually 6:00 through 10:00, so the kids could work during the day.

[Assistant] It was a public school, not church run?

[User] Yes. It was the local state-owned school.

[Assistant] So who would you go to if you observed or heard of local customs, observations, celebrations that you didn't, you couldn't quite figure out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, no. But it was an it was an evening school. Classes started at around 6:00. So it was a six o'clock, seven o'clock, nine o'clock. There were four classes a night, usually 6:00 through 10:00, so the kids could work during the day.

[Assistant] It was a public school, not church run?

[User] Yes. It was the local state-owned school.

[Assistant] So who would you go to if you observed or heard of local customs, observations, celebrations that you didn't, you couldn't quite figure out?

[User] Well. Having been brought up a son of a of an anthropologist, I did have some investigatory techniques that I learned, just asking. But quite frankly, the other person who helped me the most was another the closest volunteer who was about 15 kilometers away in a town called Brejo do Cruz. A guy named Bob Krasnow, who in fact today lives just across the river from where I was living in Sao Bento. He still, he stayed on, married a Brazilian, and continued to turn himself into a farmer, essentially. And I've traded phone calls with him the last few years, but never quite. In fact, I should just call him up again, try to reach him. He was one of these guys who had all of the things that you needed to be an actor of and make things happen. He was one of the ones that you know by himself, and working with this lower class of poor farmers put together a very successful buying cooperative. And he ran into a lot of entrenched interests, against a lot of entrenched interests, in the little town he was in, particularly the merchants, because essentially what they were doing was radically reducing the cost of basic foodstuffs for this group of people.

[Assistant] If school didn't start until the evening, what did you do for the whole day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was the local state-owned school.

[Assistant] So who would you go to if you observed or heard of local customs, observations, celebrations that you didn't, you couldn't quite figure out?

[User] Well. Having been brought up a son of a of an anthropologist, I did have some investigatory techniques that I learned, just asking. But quite frankly, the other person who helped me the most was another the closest volunteer who was about 15 kilometers away in a town called Brejo do Cruz. A guy named Bob Krasnow, who in fact today lives just across the river from where I was living in Sao Bento. He still, he stayed on, married a Brazilian, and continued to turn himself into a farmer, essentially. And I've traded phone calls with him the last few years, but never quite. In fact, I should just call him up again, try to reach him. He was one of these guys who had all of the things that you needed to be an actor of and make things happen. He was one of the ones that you know by himself, and working with this lower class of poor farmers put together a very successful buying cooperative. And he ran into a lot of entrenched interests, against a lot of entrenched interests, in the little town he was in, particularly the merchants, because essentially what they were doing was radically reducing the cost of basic foodstuffs for this group of people.

[Assistant] If school didn't start until the evening, what did you do for the whole day?

[User] That's when I would be about two days a week. I'd probably be with Mondico or working with him on figuring out what of Hank's programs, what to do about the soy program, the next planting season. Otherwise, you know, basically I hung around, I did lesson plans, I graded papers and I was a bit of loose ends.

[Assistant] Learning to teach.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well. Having been brought up a son of a of an anthropologist, I did have some investigatory techniques that I learned, just asking. But quite frankly, the other person who helped me the most was another the closest volunteer who was about 15 kilometers away in a town called Brejo do Cruz. A guy named Bob Krasnow, who in fact today lives just across the river from where I was living in Sao Bento. He still, he stayed on, married a Brazilian, and continued to turn himself into a farmer, essentially. And I've traded phone calls with him the last few years, but never quite. In fact, I should just call him up again, try to reach him. He was one of these guys who had all of the things that you needed to be an actor of and make things happen. He was one of the ones that you know by himself, and working with this lower class of poor farmers put together a very successful buying cooperative. And he ran into a lot of entrenched interests, against a lot of entrenched interests, in the little town he was in, particularly the merchants, because essentially what they were doing was radically reducing the cost of basic foodstuffs for this group of people.

[Assistant] If school didn't start until the evening, what did you do for the whole day?

[User] That's when I would be about two days a week. I'd probably be with Mondico or working with him on figuring out what of Hank's programs, what to do about the soy program, the next planting season. Otherwise, you know, basically I hung around, I did lesson plans, I graded papers and I was a bit of loose ends.

[Assistant] Learning to teach.

[User] Well, teaching myself how to teach.

[Assistant] You knew another group of volunteers was due in. You remember approximately when?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's when I would be about two days a week. I'd probably be with Mondico or working with him on figuring out what of Hank's programs, what to do about the soy program, the next planting season. Otherwise, you know, basically I hung around, I did lesson plans, I graded papers and I was a bit of loose ends.

[Assistant] Learning to teach.

[User] Well, teaching myself how to teach.

[Assistant] You knew another group of volunteers was due in. You remember approximately when?

[User] When I learned about that, I was probably in the fall of that year. So probably September or October.

[Assistant] It was still in '68?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, teaching myself how to teach.

[Assistant] You knew another group of volunteers was due in. You remember approximately when?

[User] When I learned about that, I was probably in the fall of that year. So probably September or October.

[Assistant] It was still in '68?

[User] Still in '68. I said, Look, in June of '69, we've got 11 to 15. something like 15 volunteers coming in. They're going to be kids with business background and engineering backgrounds. And we've developed this program with the State Department of Rural Electrification and we're going to do a pilot program. And you know, that's the idea. What it developed into was part of the program was doing economic slash agricultural feasibility studies of the areas that were earmarked for electrification. And then actually working with the engineers to plant to plot the lines.

[Assistant] Was all this development driven by the Brazilian government officials at some level or other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I learned about that, I was probably in the fall of that year. So probably September or October.

[Assistant] It was still in '68?

[User] Still in '68. I said, Look, in June of '69, we've got 11 to 15. something like 15 volunteers coming in. They're going to be kids with business background and engineering backgrounds. And we've developed this program with the State Department of Rural Electrification and we're going to do a pilot program. And you know, that's the idea. What it developed into was part of the program was doing economic slash agricultural feasibility studies of the areas that were earmarked for electrification. And then actually working with the engineers to plant to plot the lines.

[Assistant] Was all this development driven by the Brazilian government officials at some level or other?

[User] Oh yeah, there this was a program where at some level I'm sure there was some U.S. aid money, but at the level that we saw it, we were essentially free, specialized labor for the states run.

[Assistant] But there was no sense, no idea of having counterparts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still in '68. I said, Look, in June of '69, we've got 11 to 15. something like 15 volunteers coming in. They're going to be kids with business background and engineering backgrounds. And we've developed this program with the State Department of Rural Electrification and we're going to do a pilot program. And you know, that's the idea. What it developed into was part of the program was doing economic slash agricultural feasibility studies of the areas that were earmarked for electrification. And then actually working with the engineers to plant to plot the lines.

[Assistant] Was all this development driven by the Brazilian government officials at some level or other?

[User] Oh yeah, there this was a program where at some level I'm sure there was some U.S. aid money, but at the level that we saw it, we were essentially free, specialized labor for the states run.

[Assistant] But there was no sense, no idea of having counterparts?

[User] We did have. We did have a few counterparts. For example, in this whole area of the rural electrification. When that started the next year, essentially we spent something like, it was almost like going through training again. We spent about, I'm going to say, two months working in the state capital with the directorship of rural electrification and in that there were two main counterparts, an engineer and an economist who basically formed our teams and got us ready to go out in the field again to work on this rural electrification program. I was slated to go back and be in charge of the efforts out in that same town that I'd started out in, Sao Bento.

[Assistant] So by then, you'd given up your teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, there this was a program where at some level I'm sure there was some U.S. aid money, but at the level that we saw it, we were essentially free, specialized labor for the states run.

[Assistant] But there was no sense, no idea of having counterparts?

[User] We did have. We did have a few counterparts. For example, in this whole area of the rural electrification. When that started the next year, essentially we spent something like, it was almost like going through training again. We spent about, I'm going to say, two months working in the state capital with the directorship of rural electrification and in that there were two main counterparts, an engineer and an economist who basically formed our teams and got us ready to go out in the field again to work on this rural electrification program. I was slated to go back and be in charge of the efforts out in that same town that I'd started out in, Sao Bento.

[Assistant] So by then, you'd given up your teaching.

[User] That was actually during the summer. So there was there was. Let me think about this. I remember there being a problem in that I was able to finish the year with teaching through June, somehow give the exams and then there was at least a month off. And I think it may be I was back in time to start working on that. I remember that last semester I taught, which would have been, I believe during the second half of '69, there was a problem of both getting the exams to the kids and having them taken without me there and then grading them and get the grades back. I remember that was a problem because at that point I had, I was spending a lot of time our time in the capital city.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Yeah, so you really taught about almost a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did have. We did have a few counterparts. For example, in this whole area of the rural electrification. When that started the next year, essentially we spent something like, it was almost like going through training again. We spent about, I'm going to say, two months working in the state capital with the directorship of rural electrification and in that there were two main counterparts, an engineer and an economist who basically formed our teams and got us ready to go out in the field again to work on this rural electrification program. I was slated to go back and be in charge of the efforts out in that same town that I'd started out in, Sao Bento.

[Assistant] So by then, you'd given up your teaching.

[User] That was actually during the summer. So there was there was. Let me think about this. I remember there being a problem in that I was able to finish the year with teaching through June, somehow give the exams and then there was at least a month off. And I think it may be I was back in time to start working on that. I remember that last semester I taught, which would have been, I believe during the second half of '69, there was a problem of both getting the exams to the kids and having them taken without me there and then grading them and get the grades back. I remember that was a problem because at that point I had, I was spending a lot of time our time in the capital city.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Yeah, so you really taught about almost a year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] As you were making the shift into the quote the real project, did you have any sense of time or question, you know, what am I doing here? Where am I going? What do I project as a successful Peace Corps career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] As you were making the shift into the quote the real project, did you have any sense of time or question, you know, what am I doing here? Where am I going? What do I project as a successful Peace Corps career?

[User] Not really, I sort of kept on falling into things. I mean, I unofficially sort of became one of the semi managers of that program.

[Assistant] Now what?

[User] The rural electrification project, probably this probably by the end of 1969, which was about six months after it, because at that point, then I moved in. Well, maybe I'm a year off, maybe was a little bit later. I think my sense is then I know that. Well, the main thing that started happening in.

[Assistant] Let's move ahead to savagery.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The director was Steve Daichi. Fascinating guy. Multiculturalist. I believe he was ethnically slash culturally Czech and had an American citizen. He was a, either a periodontist, I mean, essentially someone who had a.

[Assistant] Let's continue with your story.

[User] No, but he was a fascinating guy, fascinating guy, who, in fact, after this Peace Corps experience, he was a really great hard charging director, very controversial, just because he bruised a lot of skins on the way, but he got what he wanted. He ended up joining the State Department, and at one point he in fact, he was the consul of the United States in Sao Paulo, Brazil, later. But he clearly responded well to this being international. So I worked for him for a period of time. Then I ended up moving to the city of Belem at the mouth of the Amazon, and was charged with helping develop new Peace Corps programs throughout the Amazon region.

[Assistant] You were considered still a volunteer?

[User] I was still a volunteer. I was sort of a super volunteer. My memory at that point is they upped my monthly pay to about three hundred a month, which was.

[Assistant] I think they had a category called volunteer leader.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but he was a fascinating guy, fascinating guy, who, in fact, after this Peace Corps experience, he was a really great hard charging director, very controversial, just because he bruised a lot of skins on the way, but he got what he wanted. He ended up joining the State Department, and at one point he in fact, he was the consul of the United States in Sao Paulo, Brazil, later. But he clearly responded well to this being international. So I worked for him for a period of time. Then I ended up moving to the city of Belem at the mouth of the Amazon, and was charged with helping develop new Peace Corps programs throughout the Amazon region.

[Assistant] You were considered still a volunteer?

[User] I was still a volunteer. I was sort of a super volunteer. My memory at that point is they upped my monthly pay to about three hundred a month, which was.

[Assistant] I think they had a category called volunteer leader.

[User] Yeah. And that was I think that's the rubric that they put me under. But that allowed us actually to for the first time, not have to, you know, take money out of my readjustment allowance to pay for food. And it was exciting to be in a different part of Brazil. The Amazon is always a great place. So, so personally, we really enjoyed that ability of that experience.

[Assistant] And you were doing program development, which is kind of a fun thing to do because you go in and, you know, learn as much as you can about the place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And that was I think that's the rubric that they put me under. But that allowed us actually to for the first time, not have to, you know, take money out of my readjustment allowance to pay for food. And it was exciting to be in a different part of Brazil. The Amazon is always a great place. So, so personally, we really enjoyed that ability of that experience.

[Assistant] And you were doing program development, which is kind of a fun thing to do because you go in and, you know, learn as much as you can about the place.

[User] Right, and again, there were strong government agricultural extension programs that we could lever off of, and part of what I ended up doing was I did about 15 site visits to in every little town we would go to, we'd meet, we'd go with a volunteer who had actually been there before, probably not living there. We would meet the government agricultural extension person, if he were in that town. We'd meet the local banker, we'd meet the local mayor. We just sort of get a feel and do it a writeup about the site as to whether we thought it would be a productive place to put volunteers and we were looking at that point. Peace Corps had shifted gears at that point. They were really bringing in much more people with more dedicated skill level.

[Assistant] Specific skills.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That was your last position as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and again, there were strong government agricultural extension programs that we could lever off of, and part of what I ended up doing was I did about 15 site visits to in every little town we would go to, we'd meet, we'd go with a volunteer who had actually been there before, probably not living there. We would meet the government agricultural extension person, if he were in that town. We'd meet the local banker, we'd meet the local mayor. We just sort of get a feel and do it a writeup about the site as to whether we thought it would be a productive place to put volunteers and we were looking at that point. Peace Corps had shifted gears at that point. They were really bringing in much more people with more dedicated skill level.

[Assistant] Specific skills.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That was your last position as a volunteer?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you find finally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That was your last position as a volunteer?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you find finally?

[User] Then I finally left and we decided we.

[Assistant] After how much service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you find finally?

[User] Then I finally left and we decided we.

[Assistant] After how much service?

[User] This would have been October of '71. I finally.

[Assistant] Ok. All right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I finally left and we decided we.

[Assistant] After how much service?

[User] This would have been October of '71. I finally.

[Assistant] Ok. All right. Yeah.

[User] September, October '71.

[Assistant] Any intent at that point to try to work for Peace Corps in Washington?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] September, October '71.

[Assistant] Any intent at that point to try to work for Peace Corps in Washington?

[User] No. I'm trying to remember the way, something's coming through here. I believe I may have spent a month or so at that point. I was sort of asked to go spend some time with a training program. By this time, training programs were being done by third party companies. And it was a Colorado based company whose name I could probably come up with if I, creative something or cognitive learning or something like that. Bunch of good people and I don't really remember why I was called down there, whether it was to be a give some aspects of talks for a period of time on the Peace Corps process. That's what my memory was. So we spent a short period time, which is great for us because it got us sort of halfway down Brazil and to Belo Horizonte, and we wanted basically to travel home by land at that point. But because of that relationship, about a year and a half later, I got a call. The people that were able to track me down somewhere. At that point, no, it wasn't a year and a half later, it was a little under a year later we got a call. We were working on a dude ranch in Wyoming at that point, and they needed a cross cultural trainer. And so I went back and worked one program with them.

[Assistant] In Brazil?

[User] In Brazil, and Mary was sort of the administrative assistant to the director of the training program. So we went back to Brazil. You know, it was something we wanted to do, so was good. That was my last Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] Just a quick. Maybe we can. How did the Peace Corps experience then sort of change the career paths, your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, definitely, definitely. The program that we went back to do the training on, just so the antithesis of the types of programs that I came in under. We had a program in Belo Horizonte. This would have been in 1972, I think, where, um. It's about 30 people, and of which about 25 were people from the U.S. postal system and most of their wives. Many of them from of the postmaster level at very small places or the assistant postmaster at big places. I remember we had the former assistant postmaster from Oklahoma City and we had the postmaster from Coos Bay, Oregon. Most of them, I think, the oldest may have been 60, which meant, you know, there was a lot of experience, I think the youngest of the postal types was probably mid-30s. Preponderance there was sort of around probably median age was around 50 of that group, so it's a very different group. But it was a group that I hear, in retrospect, they were difficult to train. I mean, they were. It was hard having them get the language. It was harder to work with them on my side, which is a cross cultural line. But I understand, and it'd be interesting to see how tracking has been done. That you know, that program was very positive for Brazil as well. I mean, you can't say that for a lot of Peace Corps programs, but it certainly helped modernize their post office.

[Assistant] I mean, you were the generalists who branched out and these were the those who came in with very specific skills.

[User] The old Nixon volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah, I assume that this room in Peace Corps for both.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But it seems to have the higher level of motivation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s already on Social Security. I told him, “Don’t take it so soon because then you won’t get as much money,” but he said, “I need it now.” Anyway, Christmas, he will be on Medicare, yay. Now I’m talking too much, ask me another.

[Assistant] No, you’re not talking too much at all. It’s good information. Tell us about being a Navy wife. You mentioned how scared that you were when people would come from the squadron, [thinking Pete had crashed.]

[User] Oh yes. I remember one time the rector of our church came to the door, and I just didn’t even want to let him in. I just knew he was going to tell me that Pete had been in a crash, because there’d been so many of them. I guess that’s what test pilot is, because they put them in planes that have not been tested. I guess I’ve always been kind of nervous about the flying ever since. I think my mother taught me to worry; she was a great worrier.

[Assistant] I think that’s what most women do. We actually think ahead about some of those things.

[User] Yes, we have to do all the worrying for the family.

[Assistant] That’s right, all the repercussions. Am I correct you met the Lovells at Pax River?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I remember one time the rector of our church came to the door, and I just didn’t even want to let him in. I just knew he was going to tell me that Pete had been in a crash, because there’d been so many of them. I guess that’s what test pilot is, because they put them in planes that have not been tested. I guess I’ve always been kind of nervous about the flying ever since. I think my mother taught me to worry; she was a great worrier.

[Assistant] I think that’s what most women do. We actually think ahead about some of those things.

[User] Yes, we have to do all the worrying for the family.

[Assistant] That’s right, all the repercussions. Am I correct you met the Lovells at Pax River?

[User] At test pilot school, yes.

[Assistant] And Jo Schirra as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we have to do all the worrying for the family.

[Assistant] That’s right, all the repercussions. Am I correct you met the Lovells at Pax River?

[User] At test pilot school, yes.

[Assistant] And Jo Schirra as well?

[User] Yes, Wally [Walter M. Schirra] and Jim [James A. Lovell] were in the same class with Pete.

[Assistant] You developed close relationships with a lot of these other families?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At test pilot school, yes.

[Assistant] And Jo Schirra as well?

[User] Yes, Wally [Walter M. Schirra] and Jim [James A. Lovell] were in the same class with Pete.

[Assistant] You developed close relationships with a lot of these other families?

[User] Pretty much, yes. We did, because it was a small class.

[Assistant] How many people were in the class, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Wally [Walter M. Schirra] and Jim [James A. Lovell] were in the same class with Pete.

[Assistant] You developed close relationships with a lot of these other families?

[User] Pretty much, yes. We did, because it was a small class.

[Assistant] How many people were in the class, do you recall?

[User] Maybe 20. I think so. I can’t remember so long ago, wow.

[Assistant] Did you have a wives’ club meeting [at test pilot school]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much, yes. We did, because it was a small class.

[Assistant] How many people were in the class, do you recall?

[User] Maybe 20. I think so. I can’t remember so long ago, wow.

[Assistant] Did you have a wives’ club meeting [at test pilot school]?

[User] No we didn’t, not until we were with NASA. I think Marge [Marjorie] Slayton was the one that got the idea that we should have a wives’ club. Actually it wasn’t a club. I think Lily put that club on the end of it for some reason. It was not a club. We just got together maybe once a month or every six weeks or something like that.

[Assistant] I think Jan [Janet Evans] had mentioned that to us, that it wasn’t a club, and that you didn’t support anything other than I think she mentioned POWs [prisoners of war] at one point. That it was just an opportunity to get together and have some fellowship.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe 20. I think so. I can’t remember so long ago, wow.

[Assistant] Did you have a wives’ club meeting [at test pilot school]?

[User] No we didn’t, not until we were with NASA. I think Marge [Marjorie] Slayton was the one that got the idea that we should have a wives’ club. Actually it wasn’t a club. I think Lily put that club on the end of it for some reason. It was not a club. We just got together maybe once a month or every six weeks or something like that.

[Assistant] I think Jan [Janet Evans] had mentioned that to us, that it wasn’t a club, and that you didn’t support anything other than I think she mentioned POWs [prisoners of war] at one point. That it was just an opportunity to get together and have some fellowship.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about Pete’s decision to apply to become an astronaut. What did you think when he told you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No we didn’t, not until we were with NASA. I think Marge [Marjorie] Slayton was the one that got the idea that we should have a wives’ club. Actually it wasn’t a club. I think Lily put that club on the end of it for some reason. It was not a club. We just got together maybe once a month or every six weeks or something like that.

[Assistant] I think Jan [Janet Evans] had mentioned that to us, that it wasn’t a club, and that you didn’t support anything other than I think she mentioned POWs [prisoners of war] at one point. That it was just an opportunity to get together and have some fellowship.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about Pete’s decision to apply to become an astronaut. What did you think when he told you?

[User] I heard it first because it was on the television, the news, they said, “A class has been picked,” this is while we were in Pax River—“a group have been picked to be astronauts.” I don’t know why I thought I knew that Pete was going to be one of them. He was in the shower. I raced in the shower, and I said, “Guess what, you’re going to the Moon.” How was I so prescient? I don’t know. But anyway that was very exciting.

[Assistant] What did he think of the idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about Pete’s decision to apply to become an astronaut. What did you think when he told you?

[User] I heard it first because it was on the television, the news, they said, “A class has been picked,” this is while we were in Pax River—“a group have been picked to be astronauts.” I don’t know why I thought I knew that Pete was going to be one of them. He was in the shower. I raced in the shower, and I said, “Guess what, you’re going to the Moon.” How was I so prescient? I don’t know. But anyway that was very exciting.

[Assistant] What did he think of the idea?

[User] He was not picked in the first group. Then we went out to California, and he was in a squadron out there. When the second group was picked, I’m trying to think what was my reaction. I don’t even remember. I guess I thought, “Well, it’s about time!”

[Assistant] He should have been picked the first time, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I heard it first because it was on the television, the news, they said, “A class has been picked,” this is while we were in Pax River—“a group have been picked to be astronauts.” I don’t know why I thought I knew that Pete was going to be one of them. He was in the shower. I raced in the shower, and I said, “Guess what, you’re going to the Moon.” How was I so prescient? I don’t know. But anyway that was very exciting.

[Assistant] What did he think of the idea?

[User] He was not picked in the first group. Then we went out to California, and he was in a squadron out there. When the second group was picked, I’m trying to think what was my reaction. I don’t even remember. I guess I thought, “Well, it’s about time!”

[Assistant] He should have been picked the first time, right?

[User] Yes, we had people coming out to interview me. Pete went of course to Houston right away. It took me a while before I sold our house and joined him down at Clear Lake. I remember the kids were all pretty small then. Christopher was just a little baby. Trying to think if I can remember how old were they when we went to Houston. I think they were like one, three, five, and seven, something like that.\n\n We bought a house in Timber Cove, which is where the Schirras and the Grissoms and the Carpenters and the Glenns all bought houses. Then a bunch of them did in El Lago. Then when the third group came along they went into another different neighborhood. What was the name of that? You probably know better than I do.

[Assistant] Nassau Bay I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was not picked in the first group. Then we went out to California, and he was in a squadron out there. When the second group was picked, I’m trying to think what was my reaction. I don’t even remember. I guess I thought, “Well, it’s about time!”

[Assistant] He should have been picked the first time, right?

[User] Yes, we had people coming out to interview me. Pete went of course to Houston right away. It took me a while before I sold our house and joined him down at Clear Lake. I remember the kids were all pretty small then. Christopher was just a little baby. Trying to think if I can remember how old were they when we went to Houston. I think they were like one, three, five, and seven, something like that.\n\n We bought a house in Timber Cove, which is where the Schirras and the Grissoms and the Carpenters and the Glenns all bought houses. Then a bunch of them did in El Lago. Then when the third group came along they went into another different neighborhood. What was the name of that? You probably know better than I do.

[Assistant] Nassau Bay I think.

[User] Yes. When you get to be 87, you don’t remember things very well, particularly names.

[Assistant] I think you’re doing a great job. Tell us about the idea of moving to Houston. What did you know of Houston? You were from Texas, but had you spent much time in the Houston area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had people coming out to interview me. Pete went of course to Houston right away. It took me a while before I sold our house and joined him down at Clear Lake. I remember the kids were all pretty small then. Christopher was just a little baby. Trying to think if I can remember how old were they when we went to Houston. I think they were like one, three, five, and seven, something like that.\n\n We bought a house in Timber Cove, which is where the Schirras and the Grissoms and the Carpenters and the Glenns all bought houses. Then a bunch of them did in El Lago. Then when the third group came along they went into another different neighborhood. What was the name of that? You probably know better than I do.

[Assistant] Nassau Bay I think.

[User] Yes. When you get to be 87, you don’t remember things very well, particularly names.

[Assistant] I think you’re doing a great job. Tell us about the idea of moving to Houston. What did you know of Houston? You were from Texas, but had you spent much time in the Houston area?

[User] I had never spent any time in Houston at all, no.

[Assistant] What did you think of coming back to Texas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had so many things to talk about, yes. We just stayed up all night every night talking. It was really fun.

[Assistant] You had done an interview, I think, for the Timber Cove anniversary.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] You talked about how people living in that community were like a family. I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit.

[User] Oh yes. When people went out of town, we babysat. We just took their kids to our house whenever they wanted, to try to save on babysitting, although we only paid 50 cents an hour in those days. Can you believe it?

[Assistant] I would love that. It’s now like $10 or $15 an hour. It’s crazy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] You talked about how people living in that community were like a family. I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit.

[User] Oh yes. When people went out of town, we babysat. We just took their kids to our house whenever they wanted, to try to save on babysitting, although we only paid 50 cents an hour in those days. Can you believe it?

[Assistant] I would love that. It’s now like $10 or $15 an hour. It’s crazy.

[User] I know it. I remember in Patuxent River I paid my maid $5 and now I pay my maid $80 for three hours, and the other maid stayed eight hours. Isn’t that something? Times change. [Like Bob Dylan sang], “Times, they are a-changing.”

[Assistant] Would you do other things besides babysit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gosh, we shopped together. We took food over to everybody’s house when they were sick. We just did everything together. Went to parties, had parties. [We] had progressive parties, have drinks in one place and hors d’oeuvres and then a main meal and then a dessert in somebody else’s house. It was just like one big family.\n\n That included all the people that were not with NASA too, everybody. A lot of them were contractors from other companies that were building parts of the spacecraft. Let’s see what [other] kind of people were there. I guess it was mostly people that had something [to do with NASA]. A lot of them were engineers with NASA. Some of them were public relations people.\n\n When we went on those world tours we always had a doctor with us, a NASA doctor. Oh, and we had the most wonderful nurse, Dee [Delores B.] O’Hara, I guess you heard her name. She was just great. Everybody loved her. We didn’t have to go to doctors in those days, because Dee would make an appointment for us. We’d come in, and we’d see a NASA doctor. The only time people didn’t go to a NASA doctor was when the wives thought they were too nervous. They had to see a shrink, or they had to get some Valium or something to calm their nerves. Maybe they’d go to another doctor and say, “I don’t know whether I can face this flight without some kind of thing to [calm] my nerves.” But we all survived.

[Assistant] Was that common for the wives to feel that nervous?

[User] I don’t know because they wouldn’t tell each other really. A couple people that you were really close to would admit that they had to take a pill or two, but I don’t think they wanted NASA to know it. They certainly didn’t.

[Assistant] In Lily’s book she talks about how your group came in and you had a meeting with a protocol officer who laid out the expectations for the wives. Do you remember that meeting?

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] I was curious about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know because they wouldn’t tell each other really. A couple people that you were really close to would admit that they had to take a pill or two, but I don’t think they wanted NASA to know it. They certainly didn’t.

[Assistant] In Lily’s book she talks about how your group came in and you had a meeting with a protocol officer who laid out the expectations for the wives. Do you remember that meeting?

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] I was curious about that.

[User] We were supposed to be very circumspect, I think, and be very loyal and not talk. I can’t remember exactly what they said, but I think we knew our roles, which would probably be what a role would even still be today. We don’t rock the boat. We’re very loyal and backing them up in every endeavor.

[Assistant] Did anyone question that, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] I was curious about that.

[User] We were supposed to be very circumspect, I think, and be very loyal and not talk. I can’t remember exactly what they said, but I think we knew our roles, which would probably be what a role would even still be today. We don’t rock the boat. We’re very loyal and backing them up in every endeavor.

[Assistant] Did anyone question that, do you think?

[User] I’m not sure that they would say so, but maybe they would today. They probably would say that today. I know Beth Williams would. What a person she is, a personality. She has done so many things. Her husband was killed just, I think, when her [second] child was born. She picked herself up. She got busy, and she started a whole [business] with the Russians. I think they were getting ready to have that [Apollo]-Soyuz [flight], that one with Deke [Donald K. Slayton] going on a Russian mission. She got together all these translators so that they could talk back and forth with the Russians, and that was very interesting. She made a lot of money. I think she never remarried. She had a lot of people wanting to marry her, but she had a lot of people working for her too. We all admire her.

[Assistant] I bet. Going back to Timber Cove, one of the things that I’ve learned interviewing some of the folks is that some of the homes that would face each other had gates in the back so that you could go to another house. Was that common in Timber Cove?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure that they would say so, but maybe they would today. They probably would say that today. I know Beth Williams would. What a person she is, a personality. She has done so many things. Her husband was killed just, I think, when her [second] child was born. She picked herself up. She got busy, and she started a whole [business] with the Russians. I think they were getting ready to have that [Apollo]-Soyuz [flight], that one with Deke [Donald K. Slayton] going on a Russian mission. She got together all these translators so that they could talk back and forth with the Russians, and that was very interesting. She made a lot of money. I think she never remarried. She had a lot of people wanting to marry her, but she had a lot of people working for her too. We all admire her.

[Assistant] I bet. Going back to Timber Cove, one of the things that I’ve learned interviewing some of the folks is that some of the homes that would face each other had gates in the back so that you could go to another house. Was that common in Timber Cove?

[User] Oh [not in Timber Cove], I think that was over in Nassau Bay.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Because we didn’t have any gates.

[Assistant] You didn’t have any of those. I was curious about that, with the kids, having them go back and forth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh [not in Timber Cove], I think that was over in Nassau Bay.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Because we didn’t have any gates.

[Assistant] You didn’t have any of those. I was curious about that, with the kids, having them go back and forth.

[User] No, we had a bicycle brigade. A bunch of us would ride bicycles around Timber Cove every day. I guess we had car pools to school, except for the school bus. Then when the reporters were there, I forget which flight, but my kids used to try to entertain them. They would get up on the roof and do all sort of frightening things so they’d get their pictures taken. Jump off the roof into the pool. [Cringes] Ooh.

[Assistant]
I heard that story. I was wondering if it was true.

I think Jack had told us that.

Yes, Jack Kinzler told us that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had a bicycle brigade. A bunch of us would ride bicycles around Timber Cove every day. I guess we had car pools to school, except for the school bus. Then when the reporters were there, I forget which flight, but my kids used to try to entertain them. They would get up on the roof and do all sort of frightening things so they’d get their pictures taken. Jump off the roof into the pool. [Cringes] Ooh.

[Assistant]
I heard that story. I was wondering if it was true.

I think Jack had told us that.

Yes, Jack Kinzler told us that.

[User] Oh, really.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You talked to Jack?

[Assistant] Yes. Many years ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You talked to Jack?

[Assistant] Yes. Many years ago.

[User] Really? Gosh, what a neat guy he was.

[Assistant]
We had a couple interviews. He was.

He was.

He helped us. We had a couple interviews with him when we were writing some articles and he helped us with that and with the flag, because he had done the flag.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You talked to Jack?

[Assistant] Yes. Many years ago.

[User] Really? Gosh, what a neat guy he was.

[Assistant]
We had a couple interviews. He was.

He was.

He helped us. We had a couple interviews with him when we were writing some articles and he helped us with that and with the flag, because he had done the flag.

[User] Oh, yes, he just was a fine person, and so was Sylvia his wife. I think my kids still keep up with their kids, which has been a nice thing for them too. In fact my oldest son is going with Amy Bean to some function this weekend [for] Alan [L.] Bean, maybe in his hometown. Something’s going to happen. Anyway, he’s going with Amy. Peter Conrad is going with Amy Bean, which is kind of a fun thing.

[Assistant]
Yes, that’s nice to have those connections, it really is.

Jennifer has talked to her, so hopefully we’re going to talk to her and do an interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? Gosh, what a neat guy he was.

[Assistant]
We had a couple interviews. He was.

He was.

He helped us. We had a couple interviews with him when we were writing some articles and he helped us with that and with the flag, because he had done the flag.

[User] Oh, yes, he just was a fine person, and so was Sylvia his wife. I think my kids still keep up with their kids, which has been a nice thing for them too. In fact my oldest son is going with Amy Bean to some function this weekend [for] Alan [L.] Bean, maybe in his hometown. Something’s going to happen. Anyway, he’s going with Amy. Peter Conrad is going with Amy Bean, which is kind of a fun thing.

[Assistant]
Yes, that’s nice to have those connections, it really is.

Jennifer has talked to her, so hopefully we’re going to talk to her and do an interview.

[User] She’s an awful cute girl. She’s having a bit of trouble with her stepmother. She won’t mention that, maybe she will. Peter and Amy commiserate about how they can’t stand their stepmothers. They call them the “stepmonsters.” That better not be in the history. Oh, no, it wouldn’t hurt them to know that. Would not hurt them to know that. Because apparently Leslie Bean didn’t want Amy to say anything at Alan’s funeral. She told her not to, but she did anyway.

[Assistant] Oh, I’m glad to hear that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, he just was a fine person, and so was Sylvia his wife. I think my kids still keep up with their kids, which has been a nice thing for them too. In fact my oldest son is going with Amy Bean to some function this weekend [for] Alan [L.] Bean, maybe in his hometown. Something’s going to happen. Anyway, he’s going with Amy. Peter Conrad is going with Amy Bean, which is kind of a fun thing.

[Assistant]
Yes, that’s nice to have those connections, it really is.

Jennifer has talked to her, so hopefully we’re going to talk to her and do an interview.

[User] She’s an awful cute girl. She’s having a bit of trouble with her stepmother. She won’t mention that, maybe she will. Peter and Amy commiserate about how they can’t stand their stepmothers. They call them the “stepmonsters.” That better not be in the history. Oh, no, it wouldn’t hurt them to know that. Would not hurt them to know that. Because apparently Leslie Bean didn’t want Amy to say anything at Alan’s funeral. She told her not to, but she did anyway.

[Assistant] Oh, I’m glad to hear that.

[User] She’ll tell you that.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask some about the community, because obviously we’re very interested in how NASA shaped the community while you were there. I noticed that you went to an Episcopalian church. I wanted to know how NASA influenced that church. Do you think it had any impact on it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She’ll tell you that.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask some about the community, because obviously we’re very interested in how NASA shaped the community while you were there. I noticed that you went to an Episcopalian church. I wanted to know how NASA influenced that church. Do you think it had any impact on it?

[User] They never mentioned that where we would go to church at all.

[Assistant] No sermons?

[User] We just had to behave ourselves and not get drunk and disorderly, I think.

[Assistant] I was hoping maybe it reflected some of the excitement over the space program, and maybe there were some sermons or anything like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They never mentioned that where we would go to church at all.

[Assistant] No sermons?

[User] We just had to behave ourselves and not get drunk and disorderly, I think.

[Assistant] I was hoping maybe it reflected some of the excitement over the space program, and maybe there were some sermons or anything like that.

[User] No, I don’t think so, not really. The Lovells went to the same church we did.

[Assistant] I had found some material on the Methodist church. The Methodist minister was very interested in Al Bean. Al Bean went to that church.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We just had to behave ourselves and not get drunk and disorderly, I think.

[Assistant] I was hoping maybe it reflected some of the excitement over the space program, and maybe there were some sermons or anything like that.

[User] No, I don’t think so, not really. The Lovells went to the same church we did.

[Assistant] I had found some material on the Methodist church. The Methodist minister was very interested in Al Bean. Al Bean went to that church.

[User] I think the Kinzlers did too. No, they went to the Presbyterian church.

[Assistant] Yes, there are quite a few churches around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so, not really. The Lovells went to the same church we did.

[Assistant] I had found some material on the Methodist church. The Methodist minister was very interested in Al Bean. Al Bean went to that church.

[User] I think the Kinzlers did too. No, they went to the Presbyterian church.

[Assistant] Yes, there are quite a few churches around.

[User] Oh yes. Oh, and there was a little theater that we started down there too which was very popular. Joan Aldrin was a wonderful actress, and she helped get it started and another neighbor of mine that was quite an actress too. We all participated in these plays. It was an old movie theater. I did everything from cleaning the toilets to being the president of the board. I just did everything. Acted in a couple plays. My neighbors all acted in the plays. It was so much fun.

[Assistant] Where was that theater?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the Kinzlers did too. No, they went to the Presbyterian church.

[Assistant] Yes, there are quite a few churches around.

[User] Oh yes. Oh, and there was a little theater that we started down there too which was very popular. Joan Aldrin was a wonderful actress, and she helped get it started and another neighbor of mine that was quite an actress too. We all participated in these plays. It was an old movie theater. I did everything from cleaning the toilets to being the president of the board. I just did everything. Acted in a couple plays. My neighbors all acted in the plays. It was so much fun.

[Assistant] Where was that theater?

[User] It was in Dickinson.

[Assistant]
Dickinson.

In the movie theater, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Oh, and there was a little theater that we started down there too which was very popular. Joan Aldrin was a wonderful actress, and she helped get it started and another neighbor of mine that was quite an actress too. We all participated in these plays. It was an old movie theater. I did everything from cleaning the toilets to being the president of the board. I just did everything. Acted in a couple plays. My neighbors all acted in the plays. It was so much fun.

[Assistant] Where was that theater?

[User] It was in Dickinson.

[Assistant]
Dickinson.

In the movie theater, yes.

[User] In the old movie theater.

[Assistant] The theater is still going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in Dickinson.

[Assistant]
Dickinson.

In the movie theater, yes.

[User] In the old movie theater.

[Assistant] The theater is still going.

[User] Is it really?

[Assistant] Yes, it is. It’s still a community theater.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the old movie theater.

[Assistant] The theater is still going.

[User] Is it really?

[Assistant] Yes, it is. It’s still a community theater.

[User] Oh, I’m glad to hear that. How fun.

[Assistant] What were some of the productions that you starred in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is it really?

[Assistant] Yes, it is. It’s still a community theater.

[User] Oh, I’m glad to hear that. How fun.

[Assistant] What were some of the productions that you starred in?

[User] Oh, let’s see. I was in The Women that Clare Boothe Luce wrote. Let’s see what else was I in.

[Assistant] What part did you play?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s called A Shooting in Missouri, and it was a double entendre with shooting a movie and then of course there’s a real shooting in it.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look for it.

[User] I don’t know whether it’s still on Amazon or not.

[Assistant] You can find things everywhere.

[User]
Oh, hey, I can even give it to you, because Thomas or somebody ordered me a whole bunch of them, and I’ve never tried to put them online or tried to advertise them.\n\n [Break in interview]

[The book] is young adult. If either of you have any young adult children, they would like it.

[Assistant]
Yes she has a granddaughter, and I have a son that are about the same age.

They’re just a couple weeks apart.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know whether it’s still on Amazon or not.

[Assistant] You can find things everywhere.

[User]
Oh, hey, I can even give it to you, because Thomas or somebody ordered me a whole bunch of them, and I’ve never tried to put them online or tried to advertise them.\n\n [Break in interview]

[The book] is young adult. If either of you have any young adult children, they would like it.

[Assistant]
Yes she has a granddaughter, and I have a son that are about the same age.

They’re just a couple weeks apart.

[User] Oh, really. They would like that book.

[Assistant] I was actually out there looking when I saw that you had been an author. I was looking for your book.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh, hey, I can even give it to you, because Thomas or somebody ordered me a whole bunch of them, and I’ve never tried to put them online or tried to advertise them.\n\n [Break in interview]

[The book] is young adult. If either of you have any young adult children, they would like it.

[Assistant]
Yes she has a granddaughter, and I have a son that are about the same age.

They’re just a couple weeks apart.

[User] Oh, really. They would like that book.

[Assistant] I was actually out there looking when I saw that you had been an author. I was looking for your book.

[User] It was on Amazon, but they didn’t ever sell anything, I think it’s because I didn’t ever try to promote it in any way. You have to do that if you’re going to sell a book.

[Assistant]
Especially nowadays. There’s so much competition.

There really is.

Thank you.

We look forward to reading it. One of the questions that we’re always intrigued by is the difference between being a naval aviator wife and an astronaut wife. Were there major differences in your opinion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really. They would like that book.

[Assistant] I was actually out there looking when I saw that you had been an author. I was looking for your book.

[User] It was on Amazon, but they didn’t ever sell anything, I think it’s because I didn’t ever try to promote it in any way. You have to do that if you’re going to sell a book.

[Assistant]
Especially nowadays. There’s so much competition.

There really is.

Thank you.

We look forward to reading it. One of the questions that we’re always intrigued by is the difference between being a naval aviator wife and an astronaut wife. Were there major differences in your opinion?

[User] As far as being worried about them, it’s about the same. But as far as social life, we went up a lot when we became astronaut wives. We were much sought-after.

[Assistant] I definitely got that feeling. Like you mentioned, you got to meet a lot of celebrities. The media was definitely around quite a bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was on Amazon, but they didn’t ever sell anything, I think it’s because I didn’t ever try to promote it in any way. You have to do that if you’re going to sell a book.

[Assistant]
Especially nowadays. There’s so much competition.

There really is.

Thank you.

We look forward to reading it. One of the questions that we’re always intrigued by is the difference between being a naval aviator wife and an astronaut wife. Were there major differences in your opinion?

[User] As far as being worried about them, it’s about the same. But as far as social life, we went up a lot when we became astronaut wives. We were much sought-after.

[Assistant] I definitely got that feeling. Like you mentioned, you got to meet a lot of celebrities. The media was definitely around quite a bit.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of all that media interest and exposure at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as being worried about them, it’s about the same. But as far as social life, we went up a lot when we became astronaut wives. We were much sought-after.

[Assistant] I definitely got that feeling. Like you mentioned, you got to meet a lot of celebrities. The media was definitely around quite a bit.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of all that media interest and exposure at the time?

[User] A lot of people hated it, but I really enjoyed it because they were interesting people. I didn’t mind having them in the house and entertaining them and feeding them, because they were just neat people. I didn’t have anybody that asked any embarrassing questions, and nobody was rude. They were all very polite, so why would I be mad? A lot of people griped and griped about it.\n\n I think Jan Evans was a very private person, and she did not like to have any kind of publicity. She would never talk about her husband being an astronaut. In fact, none of us did very much because we thought it was sort of like bragging. Unless it came up in the conversation you never went up and said, “Well, I am the wife of.” Nobody ever ever ever said that.

[Assistant] Did you just tell people, “My husband works for NASA,” leave it at that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of all that media interest and exposure at the time?

[User] A lot of people hated it, but I really enjoyed it because they were interesting people. I didn’t mind having them in the house and entertaining them and feeding them, because they were just neat people. I didn’t have anybody that asked any embarrassing questions, and nobody was rude. They were all very polite, so why would I be mad? A lot of people griped and griped about it.\n\n I think Jan Evans was a very private person, and she did not like to have any kind of publicity. She would never talk about her husband being an astronaut. In fact, none of us did very much because we thought it was sort of like bragging. Unless it came up in the conversation you never went up and said, “Well, I am the wife of.” Nobody ever ever ever said that.

[Assistant] Did you just tell people, “My husband works for NASA,” leave it at that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Who were some of the journalists that you talked with? Obviously you had the contract with Life. But were there other journalists that came over to the house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of people hated it, but I really enjoyed it because they were interesting people. I didn’t mind having them in the house and entertaining them and feeding them, because they were just neat people. I didn’t have anybody that asked any embarrassing questions, and nobody was rude. They were all very polite, so why would I be mad? A lot of people griped and griped about it.\n\n I think Jan Evans was a very private person, and she did not like to have any kind of publicity. She would never talk about her husband being an astronaut. In fact, none of us did very much because we thought it was sort of like bragging. Unless it came up in the conversation you never went up and said, “Well, I am the wife of.” Nobody ever ever ever said that.

[Assistant] Did you just tell people, “My husband works for NASA,” leave it at that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Who were some of the journalists that you talked with? Obviously you had the contract with Life. But were there other journalists that came over to the house?

[User] I wish my brain was better. There was one that went to the ranch with us during Skylab, because they were up there for a month. We wanted to go to the ranch, which we often did, so one of them went to the ranch with us. He kind of enjoyed that. What was his name? There was one really funny thing, and I think it was in Lily’s book.\n\n The pool guy came and asked if Mr. Conrad was home. The security guy that was in our house said, “He’s,” like this. [Points up to the sky] The guy said, “Oh, I’m sorry.”

[Assistant]
Oh, that’s funny.

That’s hilarious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Who were some of the journalists that you talked with? Obviously you had the contract with Life. But were there other journalists that came over to the house?

[User] I wish my brain was better. There was one that went to the ranch with us during Skylab, because they were up there for a month. We wanted to go to the ranch, which we often did, so one of them went to the ranch with us. He kind of enjoyed that. What was his name? There was one really funny thing, and I think it was in Lily’s book.\n\n The pool guy came and asked if Mr. Conrad was home. The security guy that was in our house said, “He’s,” like this. [Points up to the sky] The guy said, “Oh, I’m sorry.”

[Assistant]
Oh, that’s funny.

That’s hilarious.

[User] Not that Pete was ever going to get up there. No, that’s as far as he got, to the Moon.

[Assistant] Tell us about that Life magazine contract. Were you briefed on it or was that something that Pete handled for your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish my brain was better. There was one that went to the ranch with us during Skylab, because they were up there for a month. We wanted to go to the ranch, which we often did, so one of them went to the ranch with us. He kind of enjoyed that. What was his name? There was one really funny thing, and I think it was in Lily’s book.\n\n The pool guy came and asked if Mr. Conrad was home. The security guy that was in our house said, “He’s,” like this. [Points up to the sky] The guy said, “Oh, I’m sorry.”

[Assistant]
Oh, that’s funny.

That’s hilarious.

[User] Not that Pete was ever going to get up there. No, that’s as far as he got, to the Moon.

[Assistant] Tell us about that Life magazine contract. Were you briefed on it or was that something that Pete handled for your family?

[User] Actually my uncle got us the lawyer from his firm to write our contract. Yes, we did. We knew about it, and we were happy to get it, because we were going to use it for our kids’ education, which we did.

[Assistant] That must have been a nice extra.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that Pete was ever going to get up there. No, that’s as far as he got, to the Moon.

[Assistant] Tell us about that Life magazine contract. Were you briefed on it or was that something that Pete handled for your family?

[User] Actually my uncle got us the lawyer from his firm to write our contract. Yes, we did. We knew about it, and we were happy to get it, because we were going to use it for our kids’ education, which we did.

[Assistant] That must have been a nice extra.

[User] Absolutely, we deserved it.

[Assistant] You did have to deal with a lot of media, a lot of attention. There were a lot of tour buses as I understand it that came through your neighborhood.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually my uncle got us the lawyer from his firm to write our contract. Yes, we did. We knew about it, and we were happy to get it, because we were going to use it for our kids’ education, which we did.

[Assistant] That must have been a nice extra.

[User] Absolutely, we deserved it.

[Assistant] You did have to deal with a lot of media, a lot of attention. There were a lot of tour buses as I understand it that came through your neighborhood.

[User] Oh yes. Pete loved to put them off track when he was out there mowing the lawn. They would stop and say, “Do you know where the Conrad house is?” He’d say, “Oh, it’s about five houses down there.”

[Assistant] But nobody recognized him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, we deserved it.

[Assistant] You did have to deal with a lot of media, a lot of attention. There were a lot of tour buses as I understand it that came through your neighborhood.

[User] Oh yes. Pete loved to put them off track when he was out there mowing the lawn. They would stop and say, “Do you know where the Conrad house is?” He’d say, “Oh, it’s about five houses down there.”

[Assistant] But nobody recognized him?

[User] I guess not.

[Assistant] That’s funny. You would think that they would recognize an astronaut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Pete loved to put them off track when he was out there mowing the lawn. They would stop and say, “Do you know where the Conrad house is?” He’d say, “Oh, it’s about five houses down there.”

[Assistant] But nobody recognized him?

[User] I guess not.

[Assistant] That’s funny. You would think that they would recognize an astronaut.

[User] If he had a cap on and sunglasses they might not.

[Assistant]
Oh, yes, maybe.

They were the days before the Internet too where everybody knew what everybody looked like.

Right, and I think the neighborhood kids, I think Jack mentioned, liked to throw people off about who lived where.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess not.

[Assistant] That’s funny. You would think that they would recognize an astronaut.

[User] If he had a cap on and sunglasses they might not.

[Assistant]
Oh, yes, maybe.

They were the days before the Internet too where everybody knew what everybody looked like.

Right, and I think the neighborhood kids, I think Jack mentioned, liked to throw people off about who lived where.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That brings up another question. You talked about going down to downtown Houston and going to those places to find the dresses. I was curious about military pay. Were you still getting the military pay that Pete had received?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If he had a cap on and sunglasses they might not.

[Assistant]
Oh, yes, maybe.

They were the days before the Internet too where everybody knew what everybody looked like.

Right, and I think the neighborhood kids, I think Jack mentioned, liked to throw people off about who lived where.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That brings up another question. You talked about going down to downtown Houston and going to those places to find the dresses. I was curious about military pay. Were you still getting the military pay that Pete had received?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you concerned when you found out that you were going to be an astronaut wife based on the articles you had read about the Mercury Seven wives going to the White House and some of these black-tie events, about how you might handle those sort of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That brings up another question. You talked about going down to downtown Houston and going to those places to find the dresses. I was curious about military pay. Were you still getting the military pay that Pete had received?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you concerned when you found out that you were going to be an astronaut wife based on the articles you had read about the Mercury Seven wives going to the White House and some of these black-tie events, about how you might handle those sort of things?

[User] No, I don’t think so. Maybe they had gone, but nobody had gone to the White House [yet] except maybe John [H.] Glenn at that time, because that was so early. That’s of course when JFK [John F. Kennedy] was there.

[Assistant] Did you feel like you got to spend much time with Pete, when he was an astronaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you concerned when you found out that you were going to be an astronaut wife based on the articles you had read about the Mercury Seven wives going to the White House and some of these black-tie events, about how you might handle those sort of things?

[User] No, I don’t think so. Maybe they had gone, but nobody had gone to the White House [yet] except maybe John [H.] Glenn at that time, because that was so early. That’s of course when JFK [John F. Kennedy] was there.

[Assistant] Did you feel like you got to spend much time with Pete, when he was an astronaut?

[User] Not a lot, no. Being on four flights, he was training most of the time. Even when he was not, he was over in Australia at Carnarvon, at the CapComs [Capsule Communicator console] over there. He was gone an awful lot, yes. I don’t necessarily think that had to do with people getting so many divorces. I think more it was the fact that maybe the women chased them. I don’t think it was the fact that we were apart a lot. They just had lots of people, women, after them all the time.

[Assistant] Were you aware of that at the time, that that was happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so. Maybe they had gone, but nobody had gone to the White House [yet] except maybe John [H.] Glenn at that time, because that was so early. That’s of course when JFK [John F. Kennedy] was there.

[Assistant] Did you feel like you got to spend much time with Pete, when he was an astronaut?

[User] Not a lot, no. Being on four flights, he was training most of the time. Even when he was not, he was over in Australia at Carnarvon, at the CapComs [Capsule Communicator console] over there. He was gone an awful lot, yes. I don’t necessarily think that had to do with people getting so many divorces. I think more it was the fact that maybe the women chased them. I don’t think it was the fact that we were apart a lot. They just had lots of people, women, after them all the time.

[Assistant] Were you aware of that at the time, that that was happening?

[User] When they started getting divorces, I did, yes, I realized. I’m trying to think. We didn’t get a divorce right away. We were married for 37 years. I began to get a little suspicious when Pete had so many meetings out of town. Then one time I found—what was it? Oh, I know, I found another garage door opener in his car, and I thought, “Hmm.” I went, and I said, “Why do you have two garage door openers?” He said, “I asked if I could keep my car in my friend’s garage sometime.” I thought, “Oh yes, sure.” I said, “Well, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to take it out and throw it in the driveway and drive over it,” and I did.

[Assistant]
Wow.

Probably didn’t go over very well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a lot, no. Being on four flights, he was training most of the time. Even when he was not, he was over in Australia at Carnarvon, at the CapComs [Capsule Communicator console] over there. He was gone an awful lot, yes. I don’t necessarily think that had to do with people getting so many divorces. I think more it was the fact that maybe the women chased them. I don’t think it was the fact that we were apart a lot. They just had lots of people, women, after them all the time.

[Assistant] Were you aware of that at the time, that that was happening?

[User] When they started getting divorces, I did, yes, I realized. I’m trying to think. We didn’t get a divorce right away. We were married for 37 years. I began to get a little suspicious when Pete had so many meetings out of town. Then one time I found—what was it? Oh, I know, I found another garage door opener in his car, and I thought, “Hmm.” I went, and I said, “Why do you have two garage door openers?” He said, “I asked if I could keep my car in my friend’s garage sometime.” I thought, “Oh yes, sure.” I said, “Well, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to take it out and throw it in the driveway and drive over it,” and I did.

[Assistant]
Wow.

Probably didn’t go over very well.

[User] He could get another one if he wants to, but that gave him the clue that I was onto him. Now that’s the kind of thing that Jackie Kennedy wanted, but it wasn’t going on then when I wrote that.

[Assistant] Right, right. Maybe you didn’t necessarily want to talk about it, even if it had been going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When they started getting divorces, I did, yes, I realized. I’m trying to think. We didn’t get a divorce right away. We were married for 37 years. I began to get a little suspicious when Pete had so many meetings out of town. Then one time I found—what was it? Oh, I know, I found another garage door opener in his car, and I thought, “Hmm.” I went, and I said, “Why do you have two garage door openers?” He said, “I asked if I could keep my car in my friend’s garage sometime.” I thought, “Oh yes, sure.” I said, “Well, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to take it out and throw it in the driveway and drive over it,” and I did.

[Assistant]
Wow.

Probably didn’t go over very well.

[User] He could get another one if he wants to, but that gave him the clue that I was onto him. Now that’s the kind of thing that Jackie Kennedy wanted, but it wasn’t going on then when I wrote that.

[Assistant] Right, right. Maybe you didn’t necessarily want to talk about it, even if it had been going on.

[User] No, no. I don’t mind talking about it now, because I can laugh about it.

[Assistant] Did the wives talk about it amongst yourselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He could get another one if he wants to, but that gave him the clue that I was onto him. Now that’s the kind of thing that Jackie Kennedy wanted, but it wasn’t going on then when I wrote that.

[Assistant] Right, right. Maybe you didn’t necessarily want to talk about it, even if it had been going on.

[User] No, no. I don’t mind talking about it now, because I can laugh about it.

[Assistant] Did the wives talk about it amongst yourselves?

[User] I remember Barbara Gordon calling me up and crying and crying on the phone, because Dick [Richard F. Gordon] had—this was much earlier—asked her for a divorce. She had six children all at home. Can you imagine? Oh. It was hard enough on me when my kids were all grown and out of the nest, but for her to have all those children.

[Assistant] There was that big brouhaha about Donn [F.] Eisele and that first divorce.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I don’t mind talking about it now, because I can laugh about it.

[Assistant] Did the wives talk about it amongst yourselves?

[User] I remember Barbara Gordon calling me up and crying and crying on the phone, because Dick [Richard F. Gordon] had—this was much earlier—asked her for a divorce. She had six children all at home. Can you imagine? Oh. It was hard enough on me when my kids were all grown and out of the nest, but for her to have all those children.

[Assistant] There was that big brouhaha about Donn [F.] Eisele and that first divorce.

[User] Oh yes. That was really sad, because with her child dying. Oh, that was really awful.

[Assistant] Was that something that you discussed behind closed doors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember Barbara Gordon calling me up and crying and crying on the phone, because Dick [Richard F. Gordon] had—this was much earlier—asked her for a divorce. She had six children all at home. Can you imagine? Oh. It was hard enough on me when my kids were all grown and out of the nest, but for her to have all those children.

[Assistant] There was that big brouhaha about Donn [F.] Eisele and that first divorce.

[User] Oh yes. That was really sad, because with her child dying. Oh, that was really awful.

[Assistant] Was that something that you discussed behind closed doors?

[User] Oh yes, we thought that was the most egregious thing that ever happened. We just couldn’t believe it could happen, and then boom boom boom. [The divorces started like dominos falling.]

[Assistant] I think in Lily’s book she talks about how you closed ranks in opening your meetings to the second wives. Do you remember much about that?