[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They’re on a spreadsheet, or they’re written out by the box number. Mark makes copies of those things. He hands them out to the archivist in the Navy Maritime Unit, and they use it. My Normandy study, Operation Neptune, that I did when I first came here, is still being used at our Archives II. I was amazed, after all these years, they’re still using that.

[Assistant] What is the file you brought?

[User] I just had an article published on one of the Coast Guard cutters named after one of the women, Kathleen Moore. I just submitted another article, about the grounding of an oil tanker off Cherbourg, France. Really interesting circumstances. I just submitted this one. It’s on the Battleship Maine, not the Maine, but Maine Two. Ran aground at the entrance to the Mississippi in South Pass. The mouth of the Mississippi has the three passes, one going straight down, one on the left, and one on the right. The ship ran aground, and the captain blamed the United States Coast Pilot, which is a publication telling navigators of dangers, of where to go or not go, like there’s a shallow ledge here, you know to avoid it, stay on the other side of the channel. Things like that. So, there was a little set-to between the captain and what he said was an error in the Coast Pilot. It sounds as if the captain was wrong, and the United States Coast Pilot was correct. So, I’m going to try to write that up.

[Assistant] You’re writing on your own, or are you doing it for the Archives?

[User] No, it’s all myself.

[Assistant] You just got the information from the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just had an article published on one of the Coast Guard cutters named after one of the women, Kathleen Moore. I just submitted another article, about the grounding of an oil tanker off Cherbourg, France. Really interesting circumstances. I just submitted this one. It’s on the Battleship Maine, not the Maine, but Maine Two. Ran aground at the entrance to the Mississippi in South Pass. The mouth of the Mississippi has the three passes, one going straight down, one on the left, and one on the right. The ship ran aground, and the captain blamed the United States Coast Pilot, which is a publication telling navigators of dangers, of where to go or not go, like there’s a shallow ledge here, you know to avoid it, stay on the other side of the channel. Things like that. So, there was a little set-to between the captain and what he said was an error in the Coast Pilot. It sounds as if the captain was wrong, and the United States Coast Pilot was correct. So, I’m going to try to write that up.

[Assistant] You’re writing on your own, or are you doing it for the Archives?

[User] No, it’s all myself.

[Assistant] You just got the information from the Archives?

[User] Yes, right. You know, there’s an awful lot of information here. I mean, anybody who’s searching for a subject, to write about, this the place. In every box, there are at least two or three articles that can be written. It’s a goldmine if you’re interesting in writing. So, I’m going to take it home, and see if I can work something up.

[Assistant] Do you ever deal with the public, helping them look for information, or is it just doing the finding aids and that’s it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My training, zero. I don’t see how you could train anybody as a staff aide. You have to come in, yes, hopefully, with a little background, which I had. Like the Normandy study, I spent a couple years writing finding aids. I had a pretty good handle on that issue. Among the papers in the Normandy study, was the master plan for Operation Overlord. A big folder. It had “Top Secret”—big. I mean, I knew a little bit about Normandy, but I had no training.

[Assistant] So you’re saying your background as oceanographer helped you to be able to do a good job with the finding aids?

[User] Yes, I had a feel for the Navy portion. I was not a novice looking through the Normandy files. I was not a novice in the Aleutians. I knew a little bit about them. So background does help. I can do a much better job than a history major could. They would pick it up eventually, but I can come in running.

[Assistant] Okay, is there anything we have not discussed that you’d like to talk about from your time here?

[User] I think I’ve covered everything. But I can say that when I did the Normandy study, I did that by myself. I would go for months without seeing the archivist that I worked for. With Mark Mollan, it’s a little different. Every Tuesday when I come in, I talk with him, and I ask any questions I have, and he asks any questions he has. Like today, on the JAG study, he wanted information about two Army nurses, who were on a transport vessel going to Europe and somehow died. He wanted to know if I had seen that in the JAG files. Questions like that. So it’s on a spreadsheet, and we can do a search for army nurses, etcetera. That’s the contact that I have with him almost daily.

[Assistant] But during your previous time, did they just give you a box of files and say, “Here you go?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In other words, I didn't choose to work in the [Office of the] National Archives

[Assistant] ... they chose you

[User] Or I just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

[Assistant] So Charles Dollar was your first supervisor, and what role do you think he played in your becoming the archivist you are today and having such a long and stellar career in the area ofelectronic records?

[User] Grand Valley State Colleges had an experimental university that I was involved in. We did a lot of independent studies and self-pacing type of programs. To a large extent what I was working at Oklahoma State with the experimental course was also like that. He [Charles Dollar] wanted me to get involved with developing training courses in machine-readable records because there were very few people who knew anything about electronic records at that time -- sort of like today. Also Mabel Dietrich, who was the head ofthe Office of the National Archives [Assistant Archivist for the Office ofthe National Archives, 19:X.X - 19XX], wanted the other archivists exposed to machinereadable records and she wanted him [Charles Dollar] to get involved in SAA [Society of American Archivists] and to expand the training. Charles knew I had been involved in some of these experimental educational programs at Oklahoma State and at Grand Valley, so he assigned me as one ofthe "other duties as assigned" to develop training courses and modules for agencies and for archivists. He then got me involved with conducting a workshop at SAA on appraisal of electronic records -- machine-readable records. That was done several times, and then we did a two-day workshop. Since he knew that I had been involved with some experimental education and self-paced study; he wanted to use that background to develop training programs in-house and externally. That gave me some visibility.

[Assistant] And so he envisioned your niche, your area ofexpertise, to be in outreach and educational programs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or I just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

[Assistant] So Charles Dollar was your first supervisor, and what role do you think he played in your becoming the archivist you are today and having such a long and stellar career in the area ofelectronic records?

[User] Grand Valley State Colleges had an experimental university that I was involved in. We did a lot of independent studies and self-pacing type of programs. To a large extent what I was working at Oklahoma State with the experimental course was also like that. He [Charles Dollar] wanted me to get involved with developing training courses in machine-readable records because there were very few people who knew anything about electronic records at that time -- sort of like today. Also Mabel Dietrich, who was the head ofthe Office of the National Archives [Assistant Archivist for the Office ofthe National Archives, 19:X.X - 19XX], wanted the other archivists exposed to machinereadable records and she wanted him [Charles Dollar] to get involved in SAA [Society of American Archivists] and to expand the training. Charles knew I had been involved in some of these experimental educational programs at Oklahoma State and at Grand Valley, so he assigned me as one ofthe "other duties as assigned" to develop training courses and modules for agencies and for archivists. He then got me involved with conducting a workshop at SAA on appraisal of electronic records -- machine-readable records. That was done several times, and then we did a two-day workshop. Since he knew that I had been involved with some experimental education and self-paced study; he wanted to use that background to develop training programs in-house and externally. That gave me some visibility.

[Assistant] And so he envisioned your niche, your area ofexpertise, to be in outreach and educational programs.

[User] Right

[Assistant] To spread the word about electronic records and their value.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grand Valley State Colleges had an experimental university that I was involved in. We did a lot of independent studies and self-pacing type of programs. To a large extent what I was working at Oklahoma State with the experimental course was also like that. He [Charles Dollar] wanted me to get involved with developing training courses in machine-readable records because there were very few people who knew anything about electronic records at that time -- sort of like today. Also Mabel Dietrich, who was the head ofthe Office of the National Archives [Assistant Archivist for the Office ofthe National Archives, 19:X.X - 19XX], wanted the other archivists exposed to machinereadable records and she wanted him [Charles Dollar] to get involved in SAA [Society of American Archivists] and to expand the training. Charles knew I had been involved in some of these experimental educational programs at Oklahoma State and at Grand Valley, so he assigned me as one ofthe "other duties as assigned" to develop training courses and modules for agencies and for archivists. He then got me involved with conducting a workshop at SAA on appraisal of electronic records -- machine-readable records. That was done several times, and then we did a two-day workshop. Since he knew that I had been involved with some experimental education and self-paced study; he wanted to use that background to develop training programs in-house and externally. That gave me some visibility.

[Assistant] And so he envisioned your niche, your area ofexpertise, to be in outreach and educational programs.

[User] Right

[Assistant] To spread the word about electronic records and their value.

[User] Right

[Assistant] How effective do you think that was, I think its very well know in the profession, that outside NARA , SAA and archivists generally learned a lot from those programs and workshops. What is your feeling about how they, those training programs were received internally, by more traditional archivists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right

[Assistant] To spread the word about electronic records and their value.

[User] Right

[Assistant] How effective do you think that was, I think its very well know in the profession, that outside NARA , SAA and archivists generally learned a lot from those programs and workshops. What is your feeling about how they, those training programs were received internally, by more traditional archivists?

[User] I don't know. One of the first courses that we did was to train incoming archivists to deal with electronic records. One of the persons who was in that course was Mike Kurtz. [A.ssistant Archivist for the Office ofR ecords Services - Washington, D.C., 19:XX -]. Part ofthe drill in that course was to write a COBOL program, and so Mike Kurtz was able to write a COBOL program in 1976. Now whether or not < laughter> did Mik e have an appreciation ofelectronic records since then? I think you'd have to ask him. But I really don 't see where we were all that effective, either internally or externally, in terms ofbuilding allies outside ofthe program.

[Assistant] Now, in terms of, and I'll get to more details about this later probably, but in terms ofbuilding bonds with other archivists who came in at the same time, like later the CIDS [Career Internship De velopment System] program and now we have the ADP [Archival Development Program] program , were you part ofa group, a class that all received standard training in NARA archival processes and procedures?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right

[Assistant] How effective do you think that was, I think its very well know in the profession, that outside NARA , SAA and archivists generally learned a lot from those programs and workshops. What is your feeling about how they, those training programs were received internally, by more traditional archivists?

[User] I don't know. One of the first courses that we did was to train incoming archivists to deal with electronic records. One of the persons who was in that course was Mike Kurtz. [A.ssistant Archivist for the Office ofR ecords Services - Washington, D.C., 19:XX -]. Part ofthe drill in that course was to write a COBOL program, and so Mike Kurtz was able to write a COBOL program in 1976. Now whether or not < laughter> did Mik e have an appreciation ofelectronic records since then? I think you'd have to ask him. But I really don 't see where we were all that effective, either internally or externally, in terms ofbuilding allies outside ofthe program.

[Assistant] Now, in terms of, and I'll get to more details about this later probably, but in terms ofbuilding bonds with other archivists who came in at the same time, like later the CIDS [Career Internship De velopment System] program and now we have the ADP [Archival Development Program] program , were you part ofa group, a class that all received standard training in NARA archival processes and procedures?

[User] No, I was probably hired the last year before the CIDS program was established. The only sort ofa "class" met twice a week, on Tuesdays and Thursdays. There were lectures that everyone had to attend. At the conclusion of those presentations and some required readings, we had to pass an examination ...

[Assistant] Wow, was this a GSA [General Services Administration]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's probably correct

[Assistant] So from '82 then, so after '82, the division was reorganized into a branch and Trudy Peterson became the branch chief until August 1983.

[User] Yes. I left the branch at that time. Trudy left the branch too at that time or right after that.

[Assistant] OK so after that in term s ofyour career, you had been an archivist in the Machine-Readable Archives Division and in the Machine-Readable Branch through, I'm looking at your vita just to put the time frame together, until June I983. And then became an archivist in the Documentation Standards Division in the Office ofRecords Administration. Can you talk a little bit about the work ofthat division and how what you did contributed to that? I'm not familiar, excuse my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with docwnentation standards.

[User] I was the first member ofthe staffor the division. When we were moving towards independence from GSA , Bob Warner said that we would hang our hat in records management on that phrase in the Federal Records Act, "heads ofagencies shall make and preserve adequate and proper documentation." So we proposed to establish standards for what would constitute adequate and proper documentation. These standards would be required for [both paper and] electronic m aterials. This is how we would get our foot into the door. That's why I was hired -- to make certain that these standards addressed electronic materials that the governmen t --that Federal agencies were creating. Of course, Patti Aronsson was hired to be the division director. And she had some problems with the office head.

[Assistant] This was in the Office ofRecords Administration? Who was the office head at the time, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I left the branch at that time. Trudy left the branch too at that time or right after that.

[Assistant] OK so after that in term s ofyour career, you had been an archivist in the Machine-Readable Archives Division and in the Machine-Readable Branch through, I'm looking at your vita just to put the time frame together, until June I983. And then became an archivist in the Documentation Standards Division in the Office ofRecords Administration. Can you talk a little bit about the work ofthat division and how what you did contributed to that? I'm not familiar, excuse my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with docwnentation standards.

[User] I was the first member ofthe staffor the division. When we were moving towards independence from GSA , Bob Warner said that we would hang our hat in records management on that phrase in the Federal Records Act, "heads ofagencies shall make and preserve adequate and proper documentation." So we proposed to establish standards for what would constitute adequate and proper documentation. These standards would be required for [both paper and] electronic m aterials. This is how we would get our foot into the door. That's why I was hired -- to make certain that these standards addressed electronic materials that the governmen t --that Federal agencies were creating. Of course, Patti Aronsson was hired to be the division director. And she had some problems with the office head.

[Assistant] This was in the Office ofRecords Administration? Who was the office head at the time, do you recall?

[User] Yes. Jim Moore [James W. Moore, A ssistant Archivist for the Office of Re cords Administration, 1983-19:XX].

[Assistant] Oh , OK


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do

[Assistant] The move was certainly very successful!

[User] Yes, the move was very successful. And that same reorganization has continued. I find it interesting today to hear the discussion about the need to increase the resources that will be processing the paper records. I hear echoes from that earlier time frame today. What they're doing now is to try to limit the reference resources [to ensure that the paper records are processed].

[Assistant] Yes, it's a reorganization without reorganizing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So during your time period as Chief ofStaffofthe Administrative Staff, what, other than the reorganization are there other parts ofthat you would like to highlight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the move was very successful. And that same reorganization has continued. I find it interesting today to hear the discussion about the need to increase the resources that will be processing the paper records. I hear echoes from that earlier time frame today. What they're doing now is to try to limit the reference resources [to ensure that the paper records are processed].

[Assistant] Yes, it's a reorganization without reorganizing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So during your time period as Chief ofStaffofthe Administrative Staff, what, other than the reorganization are there other parts ofthat you would like to highlight?

[User] Well, I think that Trudy always wanted me to be involved with anything dealing with electronic records. And so whenever anything [ with electronic records] came up, it would be passed on to me. I think the other thing we did was under Frank Burke who was Acting Archivist. He said that we are a national organization therefore we shall recruit nationally. To go back to the CIDS issue: It was at that time which we recruited the first CIDS class, brought them all in, supervised them for the first year under the Administrative Staff and then farmed them out to the separate units. We established that program; I thought that was really a rather successful program. We were under very strict instructions to recruit nationally: "The CIDS class should be representative ofthe nation as a whole, both geographically and demographically."

[Assistant] Since the CIDS program did have such, and continues to have such, a big impact on the directions the National Archives has taken, with the number oftalented people and really good people who have been hired through that program, are there parts ofthe training that you developed that you feel were especially influential in moving people along their career paths?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Smprised, no. Like I said, I thought that certain aspects ofit had become too bureaucratic, too fossilized. I figured that there would be some changes, I was not expecting it to cease. As a supervisor in the CIDS program, I saw that it was taking an awful lot oftime ofthe supervisors and the office heads, scheduling these quarterly meetings, and all the other drills that one went through. In my own mind, it was becoming too fossilized. I think that is a good term for it. It probably should have been reinvented instead ofabolished. Every training program should be.

[Assistant] Quite a few CIDS trainees assigned to our unit, and I guess we can move on to the Center for Electronic Records now, who didn't seem to stay around very long because they were able to move on to other parts ofthe Office ofthe National Archives and get better positions, but that's just my opinion and it's not my interview ...

[User] Right, one ofthe spreadsheets that I kept was a list of all the CIDS people that had been assigned to us, the date they were assigned, and the date they left. And I think only one stayed ...

[Assistant] Yes, Greg LaMotta is the one.

[User] Yes, that had become rather obvious.

[Assistant] So in 1989, shortly after the Center for Electronic Records was established, you were hired on as a branch chief ofthe Archival Services Branch. I don't know, as Chief ofStaff, I guess, yes, you were a supervisor, but now you in charge ofsupervising as a branch chief! assume a larger unit of archivists, technicians and a reference program and all that ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, one ofthe spreadsheets that I kept was a list of all the CIDS people that had been assigned to us, the date they were assigned, and the date they left. And I think only one stayed ...

[Assistant] Yes, Greg LaMotta is the one.

[User] Yes, that had become rather obvious.

[Assistant] So in 1989, shortly after the Center for Electronic Records was established, you were hired on as a branch chief ofthe Archival Services Branch. I don't know, as Chief ofStaff, I guess, yes, you were a supervisor, but now you in charge ofsupervising as a branch chief! assume a larger unit of archivists, technicians and a reference program and all that ...

[User] Right, I was now a line supervisor as opposed to a staff supervisor.

[Assistant] Can you talk about how you got your position as a branch chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that had become rather obvious.

[Assistant] So in 1989, shortly after the Center for Electronic Records was established, you were hired on as a branch chief ofthe Archival Services Branch. I don't know, as Chief ofStaff, I guess, yes, you were a supervisor, but now you in charge ofsupervising as a branch chief! assume a larger unit of archivists, technicians and a reference program and all that ...

[User] Right, I was now a line supervisor as opposed to a staff supervisor.

[Assistant] Can you talk about how you got your position as a branch chief?

[User] Well, when Edie wrote all the [material to launch the Center], she established the Center with two branches, Archival Services and Technical Services. And it was up to Ken to hire Technical [sic Archival] Services [Branch Chief]. Ken [Ken Thibodeau, Director, Center for Electronic Records, December 1988-February 1998] called me down and, or I guess up [from 6W to BE]. We had a discussion as to whether I would like the job, and.I told him I would. We talked about it-it was a job interview including why I wanted it. And at the conclusion, he called Trudy and said, 'Td like to hire Tom." At that point, since I was already a supervisor and already a [Grade] 14, it was merely a lateral reassignment.

[Assistant] And Trudy was willing to Jet you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, I was now a line supervisor as opposed to a staff supervisor.

[Assistant] Can you talk about how you got your position as a branch chief?

[User] Well, when Edie wrote all the [material to launch the Center], she established the Center with two branches, Archival Services and Technical Services. And it was up to Ken to hire Technical [sic Archival] Services [Branch Chief]. Ken [Ken Thibodeau, Director, Center for Electronic Records, December 1988-February 1998] called me down and, or I guess up [from 6W to BE]. We had a discussion as to whether I would like the job, and.I told him I would. We talked about it-it was a job interview including why I wanted it. And at the conclusion, he called Trudy and said, 'Td like to hire Tom." At that point, since I was already a supervisor and already a [Grade] 14, it was merely a lateral reassignment.

[Assistant] And Trudy was willing to Jet you go?

[User] I think so. I think Trudy saw that being the head of an administrative staff really was not my cup oftea. I was really much more ofa line manager.

[Assistant] And so at that time in 1989 it was truly a growing program as you document in Thirty Years. Can you talk about how you were able to hire people outside ofthe archivist series, myself included? Because I think that was a very masterful stroke of genius on your part, to be able to hire people who had truly electronic records backgrounds, or at least data, data librarians ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was always like a bad penny that always kept coming back and coming back. I think I've said enough in there ...

[Assistant] Hopefully we're beyond that. The other aspect to your discussion in Thirty Years about the changes the Center went through, one ofthe more, actually the whole part of the electronic records program, was where to put appraisal. And certainly you left a lasting mark in the area ofelectronic records appraisal and so my question is while the Center had appraisal of electronic records, did we really do that good of a job?

[User] I'm glad you asked that question, because I think that our colleagues in the appraisal unit today have a misinterpretation ofwhat all was going on when we acquired appraisal in 1989. We had appraisal up until 1984. With the establishment ofthe Office ofRecords Administration under Jim Moore, they consolidated the appraisal function in order to focus in all ofthe records management activity within the agency. The only two things that we had that was records management was appraisal and documentation standards. And they wanted consolidated these; it was a political move so there would be one-stop shopping for records management.

[Assistant] This was at the same time as independence

[User] Right

[Assistant] To distinguish what NARA did from what GSA did


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some people considered them to be. Well, I think what's fascinating about these [paper] surveys that"we have acquired is that -- yes, and we have some Census schedules from the economic censuses of 1927 or something like that --because when the Archives opened its doors, they just took in anything. They needed to justify their existence. And the truth ofthe matter [is that], when the electronic records program was established in 1968, it took in everything that it could. [Ofthe seriesws on) the first list ofaccessioned material in the National Archives in digital form from -- I think it [that list] was in 1973 - '74--within five years; all but one ofthose [series of] records had been internally disposed of. So I think its sort of human nature to go and grab everything initially.

[Assistant] Thank you for your comments on electronic records appraisal, because I think that is such an important aspect ofthe work you've done ofthe last 30 years. Now I'd like to move onto some general questions. I think we've touched upon major points in your career. What were some ofthe challenges and issues that you faced in your career with the agency. Let's start with what was the biggest challenge that you were confronted with?

[User] I think probably it's always been limited resources because archives is a very labor intensive operation, even ifyou are dealing with electronic records. There's always been the push to do more with less, and I think that's always been the biggest challenge. As I said earlier today in the [ Archivsist Development Program] workshop, John Carlin [Archivist ofthe United States, May 30, 1995-February 15, 2005], was very successful in increasing the amount ofmoney. How that was money was spent would be subject to some discussion. But other than that period, we've always been suffering from limited resources.

[Assistant] And we're back to that to point again.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, what was your biggest disappointment during your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably it's always been limited resources because archives is a very labor intensive operation, even ifyou are dealing with electronic records. There's always been the push to do more with less, and I think that's always been the biggest challenge. As I said earlier today in the [ Archivsist Development Program] workshop, John Carlin [Archivist ofthe United States, May 30, 1995-February 15, 2005], was very successful in increasing the amount ofmoney. How that was money was spent would be subject to some discussion. But other than that period, we've always been suffering from limited resources.

[Assistant] And we're back to that to point again.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, what was your biggest disappointment during your career?

[User] I would say the appraisal ofthe 2000 Census. [I am disappointed in] the fact that we, in effect, appraised 500 million blank pages as permanent, the amount ofmoney that will waste ifwe don't correct it, and the failure ofour colleagues in the agency and outside ofthe agency to see that --what is it? --the Individual Census Record File contains all ofthe information that anyone will ever want, that is the only thing that will need to be saved and that is the only thing that will ever be used. I would say that that was my biggest disappointment. No matter how hard we argued, those arguments fell on deaf ears except inside the Center for Electronic Records.

[Assistant] And that goes back to your earlier point about data. Because that's what it is, it's data! Very good. Did changes in the administration change the nature ofyour work assignments, describe those changes. I think this is really, how did you work in the hierarchy? I think in your case, the head ofthe Office ofthe National Archives certainly had a big impact on your career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I appraised it as temporary.

[Assistant] You did? Index to the Secretary's correspondence?

[User] Yes, it would not facilitate access to the information given the data elements that was in it. He was more than willing to give it to me ifwe wanted it.

[Assistant] I'm not sure how this next question, I feel obligated to ask all these questions now, how this applies to you but I think it does, describe, and I think you may have touched on this already, in your discussion ofyour early training, describe the process of becoming a subject area expert, in electronic records, how did researcher interest and research demands guide your work with the records? I think you can interpret that in many different ways.

[User] I don't think I ever became a subject matter expert. I may be an expert in electronic records, but that was certainly not driven by researcher demand. It was not like Greg Bradsher and his subject area expertise in records relating to Nazi Germany since researcher demand obviously drove him to learn everything that we could figure out about those records. So I really don't think that I have a subject matter expertise. And if it were in electronic records, it wasn't driven by researchers since I have had very little active involvement in responding to reference.

[Assistant] But I think your subject area expertise is really in Census, at least I consider you to be, in two areas, not just the Census Bureau but in FOIA and access


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it would not facilitate access to the information given the data elements that was in it. He was more than willing to give it to me ifwe wanted it.

[Assistant] I'm not sure how this next question, I feel obligated to ask all these questions now, how this applies to you but I think it does, describe, and I think you may have touched on this already, in your discussion ofyour early training, describe the process of becoming a subject area expert, in electronic records, how did researcher interest and research demands guide your work with the records? I think you can interpret that in many different ways.

[User] I don't think I ever became a subject matter expert. I may be an expert in electronic records, but that was certainly not driven by researcher demand. It was not like Greg Bradsher and his subject area expertise in records relating to Nazi Germany since researcher demand obviously drove him to learn everything that we could figure out about those records. So I really don't think that I have a subject matter expertise. And if it were in electronic records, it wasn't driven by researchers since I have had very little active involvement in responding to reference.

[Assistant] But I think your subject area expertise is really in Census, at least I consider you to be, in two areas, not just the Census Bureau but in FOIA and access

[User] OK ... when I was a line archivist from '75 to '83, that was my agency and that's when we worked an awful lot on getting records in from the Census Bureau. But we spent a lot more time trying to. get records in than actually getting records in. It wasn't until Mike Miller came along that he was actually able to burst the dam, and the stuffreally began to flow.

[Assistant]
The dam's been closed.

But in the area ofFOIA and access, how did you develop that expertise, I'm curious?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK ... when I was a line archivist from '75 to '83, that was my agency and that's when we worked an awful lot on getting records in from the Census Bureau. But we spent a lot more time trying to. get records in than actually getting records in. It wasn't until Mike Miller came along that he was actually able to burst the dam, and the stuffreally began to flow.

[Assistant]
The dam's been closed.

But in the area ofFOIA and access, how did you develop that expertise, I'm curious?

[User] Back in '82 (I think it was) or early in the early 80's, the whole issue of contract and grant records came up. I was working with a lot ofcontractor-generated records -- a lot ofstuff from the National Institute ofEducation, --all ofwhich were created under contracts, grants, or combinations thereof. The whole question was, "Were these Federal records? Could you have access to them?" It was an issue in various professional associations like APDU [Association ofPublic Data Users] or !ASSIST [International Association for Social Science Information Service and Technology]. And that was how the FOIA became important. When the Forsham decision was handed down,5 we were trying to get involved with the [ scheduling ofthe] National Science Foundation's contract laboratory records. The FOIA question came up as, "Is the data created under contact and/or grants a Federal record that should be managed as such?" Can you have access to it? Ifthe agency gives you access to a printout, can you still require the data?" That was a huge issue and [remained] an issue at various points in time. But I think it all began whether grants and contracts produced Federal records.

[Assistant] And the answer is? in the case ofcontracts, yes, and grants, no, except hasn't a decision recently been made about, I haven't understood this, that data collected under grant is subject to FOIA?

[User] I am not familiar with that.

[Assistant] I thought it was a decision recently related to some tobacco litigation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Back in '82 (I think it was) or early in the early 80's, the whole issue of contract and grant records came up. I was working with a lot ofcontractor-generated records -- a lot ofstuff from the National Institute ofEducation, --all ofwhich were created under contracts, grants, or combinations thereof. The whole question was, "Were these Federal records? Could you have access to them?" It was an issue in various professional associations like APDU [Association ofPublic Data Users] or !ASSIST [International Association for Social Science Information Service and Technology]. And that was how the FOIA became important. When the Forsham decision was handed down,5 we were trying to get involved with the [ scheduling ofthe] National Science Foundation's contract laboratory records. The FOIA question came up as, "Is the data created under contact and/or grants a Federal record that should be managed as such?" Can you have access to it? Ifthe agency gives you access to a printout, can you still require the data?" That was a huge issue and [remained] an issue at various points in time. But I think it all began whether grants and contracts produced Federal records.

[Assistant] And the answer is? in the case ofcontracts, yes, and grants, no, except hasn't a decision recently been made about, I haven't understood this, that data collected under grant is subject to FOIA?

[User] I am not familiar with that.

[Assistant] I thought it was a decision recently related to some tobacco litigation?

[User] I don't know, I'm not familiar with that.

[Assistant] We'll set that aside. In my mind I always considered you a subject area expert in that area and in Census generally and I see where that's come about. How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work? I think that's an interesting question, I'm not sure how to interpret it though? How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am not familiar with that.

[Assistant] I thought it was a decision recently related to some tobacco litigation?

[User] I don't know, I'm not familiar with that.

[Assistant] We'll set that aside. In my mind I always considered you a subject area expert in that area and in Census generally and I see where that's come about. How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work? I think that's an interesting question, I'm not sure how to interpret it though? How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work?

[User] Well, I'm going to take it very broadly. The records ofthe Center for Electronic Records cover 130 different agencies across the board. I think that's what has been most interesting about working for the Center. In electronic records, you move from one topic to another! That's the whole question about subject area expert. Yes, I worked a lot in the Census, but I was also taking in a lot from the National Institute ofEducation and other things ofthat nature. And the fact that it is so broad in terms ofsubjects, I think, is what gives it its value. Granted I think it may be somewhat shallow. With few exceptions, we're not very deep. Census would be one ofthem [the exceptions] where we are fairly deep. But generally speaking, we have --I think --have identified the basic data and the basic agencies. I think that's the importance ofour holdings.

[Assistant] And just as a side comment, unfortunately due to limited resources I think there are certain areas that we could get a lot deeper in


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know, I'm not familiar with that.

[Assistant] We'll set that aside. In my mind I always considered you a subject area expert in that area and in Census generally and I see where that's come about. How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work? I think that's an interesting question, I'm not sure how to interpret it though? How would you describe the intellectual and institutional value ofthe records with which you work?

[User] Well, I'm going to take it very broadly. The records ofthe Center for Electronic Records cover 130 different agencies across the board. I think that's what has been most interesting about working for the Center. In electronic records, you move from one topic to another! That's the whole question about subject area expert. Yes, I worked a lot in the Census, but I was also taking in a lot from the National Institute ofEducation and other things ofthat nature. And the fact that it is so broad in terms ofsubjects, I think, is what gives it its value. Granted I think it may be somewhat shallow. With few exceptions, we're not very deep. Census would be one ofthem [the exceptions] where we are fairly deep. But generally speaking, we have --I think --have identified the basic data and the basic agencies. I think that's the importance ofour holdings.

[Assistant] And just as a side comment, unfortunately due to limited resources I think there are certain areas that we could get a lot deeper in

[User] Oh, f do too.

[Assistant] But it's really the resources it comes down to, doesn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm going to take it very broadly. The records ofthe Center for Electronic Records cover 130 different agencies across the board. I think that's what has been most interesting about working for the Center. In electronic records, you move from one topic to another! That's the whole question about subject area expert. Yes, I worked a lot in the Census, but I was also taking in a lot from the National Institute ofEducation and other things ofthat nature. And the fact that it is so broad in terms ofsubjects, I think, is what gives it its value. Granted I think it may be somewhat shallow. With few exceptions, we're not very deep. Census would be one ofthem [the exceptions] where we are fairly deep. But generally speaking, we have --I think --have identified the basic data and the basic agencies. I think that's the importance ofour holdings.

[Assistant] And just as a side comment, unfortunately due to limited resources I think there are certain areas that we could get a lot deeper in

[User] Oh, f do too.

[Assistant] But it's really the resources it comes down to, doesn't it?

[User] Right, it's the resources internally and the willingness ofthe agencies externally to cooperate with us. Ifyou find an agency with a records officer that's willing to work with us, then we can do great things. Ifyou don't have that records officer, data administrator, or program official who doesn't want to work because it's too much trouble, whatever, whatever, whatever, then we will never get a depth to the records that we have.

[Assistant] Linda Henry also submitted some questions. So earlier today in the session you did for the ADP [Archivist Development Program] training you may have heard these already.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, f do too.

[Assistant] But it's really the resources it comes down to, doesn't it?

[User] Right, it's the resources internally and the willingness ofthe agencies externally to cooperate with us. Ifyou find an agency with a records officer that's willing to work with us, then we can do great things. Ifyou don't have that records officer, data administrator, or program official who doesn't want to work because it's too much trouble, whatever, whatever, whatever, then we will never get a depth to the records that we have.

[Assistant] Linda Henry also submitted some questions. So earlier today in the session you did for the ADP [Archivist Development Program] training you may have heard these already.

[User] We never got to them

[Assistant] I think they bear repeating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, it's the resources internally and the willingness ofthe agencies externally to cooperate with us. Ifyou find an agency with a records officer that's willing to work with us, then we can do great things. Ifyou don't have that records officer, data administrator, or program official who doesn't want to work because it's too much trouble, whatever, whatever, whatever, then we will never get a depth to the records that we have.

[Assistant] Linda Henry also submitted some questions. So earlier today in the session you did for the ADP [Archivist Development Program] training you may have heard these already.

[User] We never got to them

[Assistant] I think they bear repeating.

[User] We never got to those questions.

[Assistant] Oh, OK, well, the first one was what was the most important thing you learned that you would like to pass on to new electronic records archivists? It says electronic records archivist, but it could really be any new NARA archivist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We never got to them

[Assistant] I think they bear repeating.

[User] We never got to those questions.

[Assistant] Oh, OK, well, the first one was what was the most important thing you learned that you would like to pass on to new electronic records archivists? It says electronic records archivist, but it could really be any new NARA archivist?

[User] The important thing, I mentioned earlier I believe, about electronic records is not the technology, but the intellectual importance ofunderstanding the content ofthe records and coming to some sort ofunderstanding intellectually ofwhat you 're dealing with; their provenance, the reason why they were created, how the agency used them. The technology should be secondary. One ofthe things we were talking about earlier was the diversity ofthe workforce in the archival staff. One ofthe things that we added was IT people on the Archival Service Staff. I think that is very important because ifthe archivist can figure out the intellectual problems and challenges, then the IT person is there ifthere is a new technical issue. The IT person can come to bear [ on the problem] .. As I said in that paper on website appraisals,6 merely the fact that we can preserve something doesn't mean its worth preserving. The important thing is: "Let's worry about ifwe can preserve it only after we determine whether or not it's worth preserving."

[Assistant] Something that I've learned from you certainly is that the technology will take care ofitself ... the dependencies. I mean, we are committed to taking things and preserving things in a hardware and software independent format, but there are cases where that's not really possible, but certainly ifthe need is great enough the technology can be tooled to read, to interpret, to process, whatever we may have preserved, so ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We took in a lot ofstuff from the 9-11 Commission that will be a technological challenge. So long as we have intellectual control over what it is, we will be able to solve the technology issues ifwe're willing to spend the money. Possibly for the 9-11 Commission, future generations may be willing to spend the money. So yes, I agree, technical dependencies may not necessarily take care ofthemselves, but we could be able to take care ofthose dependencies.

[Assistant] What was your most, I'm moving on to the next question, what was your most important contribution to the program?

[User] The diversity ofthe background ofthe staff.

[Assistant] I agree. What was the high point ofthe program? Or ofyour career, you can do either one or both. What was the high point?

[User] Probably when Ken said that he would like for me to become the head ofthe Archival Services Branch ofthe Center for Electronic Records. Because I really think that ...

[Assistant] That was the high point ofyour career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The diversity ofthe background ofthe staff.

[Assistant] I agree. What was the high point ofthe program? Or ofyour career, you can do either one or both. What was the high point?

[User] Probably when Ken said that he would like for me to become the head ofthe Archival Services Branch ofthe Center for Electronic Records. Because I really think that ...

[Assistant] That was the high point ofyour career?

[User] Yes, the high point ofmy career, I think we had some problems. And I think we also had some successes. I think I made a contribution, particularly starting offin those first ten years.

[Assistant] And the high point ofthe program, what do you think that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably when Ken said that he would like for me to become the head ofthe Archival Services Branch ofthe Center for Electronic Records. Because I really think that ...

[Assistant] That was the high point ofyour career?

[User] Yes, the high point ofmy career, I think we had some problems. And I think we also had some successes. I think I made a contribution, particularly starting offin those first ten years.

[Assistant] And the high point ofthe program, what do you think that was?

[User] I would say probably the most significant part ofthe program was when Everett Alldredge [head, Office ofRecords Administration, 1955-May 1971] had the foresight to start it. I mean, it had a rough start getting started. That may not be the high point, but I think that what Ev Alldredge did during that time has probably not been adequately documented --ofhow he labored to get the program started. The high point, probably, I would say, was the fact that we successfully responded to every court challenge presented to us by the PROFS case. And the fmal line was the case was dismissed in 1994, Then the subsequent GRS 207 case was filed against us, and we won that case by a mile. I mean it was just a slam dunk for us. We successfully staved offtwo very serious legal challenges in the early to mid-90's.

[Assistant] Well, knowing Linda as you do, we have the other side ofthe coin, the low point ofyour career and ofthe program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the high point ofmy career, I think we had some problems. And I think we also had some successes. I think I made a contribution, particularly starting offin those first ten years.

[Assistant] And the high point ofthe program, what do you think that was?

[User] I would say probably the most significant part ofthe program was when Everett Alldredge [head, Office ofRecords Administration, 1955-May 1971] had the foresight to start it. I mean, it had a rough start getting started. That may not be the high point, but I think that what Ev Alldredge did during that time has probably not been adequately documented --ofhow he labored to get the program started. The high point, probably, I would say, was the fact that we successfully responded to every court challenge presented to us by the PROFS case. And the fmal line was the case was dismissed in 1994, Then the subsequent GRS 207 case was filed against us, and we won that case by a mile. I mean it was just a slam dunk for us. We successfully staved offtwo very serious legal challenges in the early to mid-90's.

[Assistant] Well, knowing Linda as you do, we have the other side ofthe coin, the low point ofyour career and ofthe program?

[User] Obviously, the RIFs of '82. We knew that individuals were going to suffer; we knew that the program was going to suffer, and we knew that the Archives as an agency was going to suffer.

[Assistant] And ofyour career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Obviously, the RIFs of '82. We knew that individuals were going to suffer; we knew that the program was going to suffer, and we knew that the Archives as an agency was going to suffer.

[Assistant] And ofyour career?

[User] Probably working for the Documentation Standards Staff

[Assistant] Oh really?

[User] Because it was not a pleasant experience ....

[Assistant] It sounds like you had a great, challenging mandate? But, just not enough resources.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably working for the Documentation Standards Staff

[Assistant] Oh really?

[User] Because it was not a pleasant experience ....

[Assistant] It sounds like you had a great, challenging mandate? But, just not enough resources.

[User] Not enough resources and the personalities involved between Peggy [sic Patti] and Jim Moore. That was not a nice situation to be in. Because there were so few ofus, it's not like you can run and hide some place. It was very up close and personal, constantly.

[Assistant] The last question listed here, is, this is going back, I think, to our earlier discussion oftraining really, but what do you believe are the most important qualifications to be an electronic records archivist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right

[Assistant] Which was a NARA publication

[User] Right

[Assistant] Sponsored by NTIS?

[User] No, that was something separate.

[Assistant] That was something separate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right

[Assistant] Sponsored by NTIS?

[User] No, that was something separate.

[Assistant] That was something separate?

[User] The Catalog was a National Archives Trust Fund Publication.

[Assistant] Which was a finding aid to our holdings. Interesting. Because then, I guess, it wasn't until the Format-X and-Y came along that NARA had a descriptive standard


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was something separate.

[Assistant] That was something separate?

[User] The Catalog was a National Archives Trust Fund Publication.

[Assistant] Which was a finding aid to our holdings. Interesting. Because then, I guess, it wasn't until the Format-X and-Y came along that NARA had a descriptive standard

[User] Yes, that's when we tried to develop one --with the X- and Y-Formats.

[Assistant] Which we did and we followed, OK, very good, that helps quite a bit. The other question of course is the inevitable, ERA. As your career came to a close at the end of June, you could see ERA off on the horizon, I believe, and so, what as you now leave the electronic records program, how so you see what you're leaving behind evolve or become a part ofthe ERA effort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Catalog was a National Archives Trust Fund Publication.

[Assistant] Which was a finding aid to our holdings. Interesting. Because then, I guess, it wasn't until the Format-X and-Y came along that NARA had a descriptive standard

[User] Yes, that's when we tried to develop one --with the X- and Y-Formats.

[Assistant] Which we did and we followed, OK, very good, that helps quite a bit. The other question of course is the inevitable, ERA. As your career came to a close at the end of June, you could see ERA off on the horizon, I believe, and so, what as you now leave the electronic records program, how so you see what you're leaving behind evolve or become a part ofthe ERA effort?

[User] I think that my experience with electronic records since 1976 is that we've always evolved based upon earlier experience. The automation ofour verification process through AERIC [Archival Electronic Records Inspection and Control Utility] was merely the automation ofthe manual process that we were doing. The ability to verify email within AERIC is based upon the verification ofdata files, structured data files. And so I hope and I think, given the fact that you have Ken and Fynnette [Fynnette Eaton, Chief, Technical Services Branch, Center for Electronic Records, 1989-ca. 1996] there, ERA will be based upon [ our experiences].... And for that matter Mark Conrad, Bob Chadduck ...

[Assistant] ... Adrienne Reagins and Sharon Smoot and ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's when we tried to develop one --with the X- and Y-Formats.

[Assistant] Which we did and we followed, OK, very good, that helps quite a bit. The other question of course is the inevitable, ERA. As your career came to a close at the end of June, you could see ERA off on the horizon, I believe, and so, what as you now leave the electronic records program, how so you see what you're leaving behind evolve or become a part ofthe ERA effort?

[User] I think that my experience with electronic records since 1976 is that we've always evolved based upon earlier experience. The automation ofour verification process through AERIC [Archival Electronic Records Inspection and Control Utility] was merely the automation ofthe manual process that we were doing. The ability to verify email within AERIC is based upon the verification ofdata files, structured data files. And so I hope and I think, given the fact that you have Ken and Fynnette [Fynnette Eaton, Chief, Technical Services Branch, Center for Electronic Records, 1989-ca. 1996] there, ERA will be based upon [ our experiences].... And for that matter Mark Conrad, Bob Chadduck ...

[Assistant] ... Adrienne Reagins and Sharon Smoot and ...

[User] It will be based upon the practical experience that the agency has had dealing with electronic records for the last 35 years now. And I think that ERA will succeed in a number ofits goals. Whether it succeeds with, you know, any format, anytime, anyplace, anywhere ... I don't know if that's possible. But will we be able to manage the basic formats? I think ERA probably will be able to do that. The technology is there, and all we have is to make certain Lockheed Martin finds it. I think it will be a partial solution

[Assistant] Well that concludes all of, those are all the questions I have. Is there anything else you'd like to day for the record here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's an exchange of ideas, exactly right. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, it's still in the mid 60s, you conceived and justified and guided the development of that 14 x 22 foot wind tunnel.

[User] Well, that was the next thing. I mentioned the 17-foot test section, that's the first thing we were using. But it pretty soon became clear that we needed something better than that. By that time, we'd learned enough about the sizes and so forth. Did you see the 14 x 22 when you were out there?

[Assistant] Yes, we did.

[User] They're doing something to it right now, they've got the whole big front end encased in canvas of some sort. I don't know what's going on. Maybe they're just painting it. They wouldn't have to put canvas over it to paint it. Anyway, that's all beside the point. But, we decided we needed a bigger tunnel, and so we developed a 14 x 22 V/STOL [vertical short take off and landing] tunnel. In fact, somebody today on the trip called it the V/STOL tunnel. Just as we drove by it, he said there's the V/STOL tunnel.

[Assistant] That's quite an undertaking, from the very beginning to the actual development. How long did that take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was the next thing. I mentioned the 17-foot test section, that's the first thing we were using. But it pretty soon became clear that we needed something better than that. By that time, we'd learned enough about the sizes and so forth. Did you see the 14 x 22 when you were out there?

[Assistant] Yes, we did.

[User] They're doing something to it right now, they've got the whole big front end encased in canvas of some sort. I don't know what's going on. Maybe they're just painting it. They wouldn't have to put canvas over it to paint it. Anyway, that's all beside the point. But, we decided we needed a bigger tunnel, and so we developed a 14 x 22 V/STOL [vertical short take off and landing] tunnel. In fact, somebody today on the trip called it the V/STOL tunnel. Just as we drove by it, he said there's the V/STOL tunnel.

[Assistant] That's quite an undertaking, from the very beginning to the actual development. How long did that take?

[User] To build that tunnel? I'd just say it took several years. I don't know, I can't give you a number right now, I'd have to go back.

[Assistant] But that was your project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To build that tunnel? I'd just say it took several years. I don't know, I can't give you a number right now, I'd have to go back.

[Assistant] But that was your project?

[User] Yes, well I came up with it and decided we ought to have it, went down to the Division Chief, and he agreed immediately. We made a presentation to the Director, and he saw what we had, and he had a sketch of where we would build it. He said, "Yes, you need that tunnel. But I don't want to see it where it is. I want to see a drawing showing interference between one of the tunnels you've got and this new one." He didn't want to get stuck with still another wind tunnel, which was perfectly sensible. So I went home that night thinking, "Did I win or did I lose?"\n\n But I came up with the idea that we could put it on the other side of where I'd sketched it, and build it [beside] the low speed 7 x 10. We had a building which was T-shaped, the offices across the front and shops down between on the leg of the T, wind tunnels on each side. The low speed 7 x 10and the high speed 7 x 10, which was the one I cut my eye teeth on calibrating and everything. Put it on the low speed side, and we found there was enough room there that we could build it before we tore down the low speed 7 x 10. Then I drew a model preparation building between the new tunnel and the shop that we had, so that that would show the interference between the old tunnel and the new, but we could keep using the old tunnel until we got the new one built and ready to operate.

[Assistant] That came in handy, didn't it?

[User] So that worked out. So then we built the model preparation building across, in between, after we tore down the old, low speed 7 x 10, and long after we got the new V/STOL tunnel in operation. I thought that was clever.

[Assistant] It sounds like someone looking at the whole picture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that worked out. So then we built the model preparation building across, in between, after we tore down the old, low speed 7 x 10, and long after we got the new V/STOL tunnel in operation. I thought that was clever.

[Assistant] It sounds like someone looking at the whole picture.

[User] So we got that going that way, and most of the rest of my career, or most of my work was then related to the jet and fan powered aircraft rather than building the propeller [driven type]. That was pretty well over with. We got the propeller-driven type to the shape where somebody could come up with a drawing of a propeller-driven V/STOL airplane, and we could go through and calculate what it would do. So there wasn't anything more for us at Langley to do, we don't go into the details beyond that, but we could see exactly how it could be done. But most of the effort from then on was on jet and fan-powered VTOL aircraft that would have the speed and range, fighter capabilities if you needed it, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Tell us how that impacted your job. You did more research and projects to our studies to follow up on those requirements?

[User] Now we're well into NASA, but we always operated pretty much in the old NACA mode. We would see a need, a problem, see the desirability of something but here's a problem in getting there, and then we would go to work on that. We were always talking with DARPA, with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, and organizations like that related to the military—not always talking to them, but they'd come by and we'd get together with them occasionally at meetings.

[Assistant] One of the things you mentioned to us was this QUESTOL [Quiet, Experimental, Short Take off and Landing] project for the Source Evaluation Board, and even though the program was abandoned, that work led to the Air Force connecting some new airplanes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think what the Air Force decided was that it took too much out of the airplane to do that for the short take off and landing you got, or for the VTOL. So they didn't go ahead with developing the [blown flap] airplanes. So that's the tradeoff. You’re looking to try to get better performance in take off and landing or something, but if it costs too much in another area, [it’s usually dropped. If it’s developed, it’s usually done by the military] or whoever's going to buy the airplane, or the airlines—except we're not dealing with airlines in this category. These would all have to be military before they would go to the airlines. But if the military developed any of these airplanes, then the technology could be built into commercial airplanes if they had a need for it.

[Assistant] What's the most significant change in technology that impacted you along the way? Or maybe you could just share some of the different types of technology that impacted your work?

[User] Well, the development of the jet engine was what started this whole thing rolling. And being able to bleed air off of the engine for flow control and so forth. That says, well now, there's possibilities of doing things that we weren’t doing before. Like the old DC-3. You know what the DC-3 is? I'm getting old enough I find I got to ask people if they know what a DC-3 is.

[Assistant] That's okay, we understand that.

[User] But the whole idea is to try to figure out how you can build airplanes that will do something better than what we're now doing. Advance the thing.

[Assistant] Did you find new technology along the way that helped you do your job better? Anything in particular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the development of the jet engine was what started this whole thing rolling. And being able to bleed air off of the engine for flow control and so forth. That says, well now, there's possibilities of doing things that we weren’t doing before. Like the old DC-3. You know what the DC-3 is? I'm getting old enough I find I got to ask people if they know what a DC-3 is.

[Assistant] That's okay, we understand that.

[User] But the whole idea is to try to figure out how you can build airplanes that will do something better than what we're now doing. Advance the thing.

[Assistant] Did you find new technology along the way that helped you do your job better? Anything in particular?

[User] Help me do my job better?

[Assistant] For instance, the introduction of computers and being able to keep different types of databases.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Help me do my job better?

[Assistant] For instance, the introduction of computers and being able to keep different types of databases.

[User] Well, that I never really got into that. Now, the coauthor of that book here, Richard Margason, showed up—I forget what school he came out of. I guess he was here on one of our exchanges. Students sometimes get in on an exchange. Anyway, I met him, and he was the computer guy. But I never touched a computer until I got out of Langley. Now, where we were getting all of these data—did I show you this? I showed you the picture of these, I think.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Picture of these guys. They're getting their data, they're writing it down on these pads. We would have these data sheets that they'd get taking data off, and we'd take them into the computer room, which was filled with eight or ten young ladies, most of them were math majors. They sat there with Friden calculators. And they'd turn the crank or punch the buttons. In the early days, they turned the crank to go through and reduce the data, multiply this column by that column, and add that and this and that sort of thing. (Refer to\n\n photo 1\n\n and\n\n photo 2\n\n )\n\n When we built the V/STOL tunnel, the 14 x 22, we put computers in there to take the data, print it, and so forth. There was a division that handled the calculation, that did the computing, except from these girls. We were getting big, mainframe computers at Langley, so when we went to build the V/STOL tunnel, I went over to the guy that ran that shop and said, "We're going to want to get this into the computer age, put computers in here, and what should we do?" Anyway, they took care of that part of the thing. That's as far as I had to go on that.

[Assistant] That was good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh man, yes!

[Assistant] I guess data, sometimes, was quicker? Was it quicker before or after the electronic computers, compared to the Friden computers?

[User] Well, compared to taking it to the girls to do it, it was much quicker. Once they got the thing integrated, you could come out with the data plotted. I don't know how they're doing all this now. I can visualize, and I'm talking about years ago, that you could plot—well, you could plot the data, but you wouldn't necessarily have the plots you would want to put into a report. You'd have to wait until you got through the mishmash of what you'd understood to do that.\n\n But then again, you could go and say, "Here, I want this plotted this way," and get it off the computer. But that was much later. Most of these later things were still in the mode of we're doing experimental work and we're not setting it up. To what extent the data was plotted on the computer, and to what—a lot of times I would want to plot it by hand. I learned more plotting data than I did any other way. You see how it goes, and that's where you can learn a lot.

[Assistant] You were so instrumental in the V/STOL tunnel, and then you were moving up more changing from Assistant Chief to Chief to these divisions. Did more tunnels come up in operations while you were in charge of those divisions?

[User] No. There was not much in the way of new tunnels. We were using the facilities that we had.

[Assistant] But there were just so many of them. There were quite a few out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, compared to taking it to the girls to do it, it was much quicker. Once they got the thing integrated, you could come out with the data plotted. I don't know how they're doing all this now. I can visualize, and I'm talking about years ago, that you could plot—well, you could plot the data, but you wouldn't necessarily have the plots you would want to put into a report. You'd have to wait until you got through the mishmash of what you'd understood to do that.\n\n But then again, you could go and say, "Here, I want this plotted this way," and get it off the computer. But that was much later. Most of these later things were still in the mode of we're doing experimental work and we're not setting it up. To what extent the data was plotted on the computer, and to what—a lot of times I would want to plot it by hand. I learned more plotting data than I did any other way. You see how it goes, and that's where you can learn a lot.

[Assistant] You were so instrumental in the V/STOL tunnel, and then you were moving up more changing from Assistant Chief to Chief to these divisions. Did more tunnels come up in operations while you were in charge of those divisions?

[User] No. There was not much in the way of new tunnels. We were using the facilities that we had.

[Assistant] But there were just so many of them. There were quite a few out there.

[User] I wasn't in charge of all of them. We had the V/STOL tunnel and the 7 x 10s, and I've forgotten what we did have. We had the full scale tunnel and the spin tunnel.

[Assistant] One of the things that you did put that I found was somewhat interesting was that so much of the work had been done with airplanes, but at some point, you started working in support of air cushion vehicles and high speed trains. Can you talk a little bit about that? That had to be a little different from what you were doing on the norm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. There was not much in the way of new tunnels. We were using the facilities that we had.

[Assistant] But there were just so many of them. There were quite a few out there.

[User] I wasn't in charge of all of them. We had the V/STOL tunnel and the 7 x 10s, and I've forgotten what we did have. We had the full scale tunnel and the spin tunnel.

[Assistant] One of the things that you did put that I found was somewhat interesting was that so much of the work had been done with airplanes, but at some point, you started working in support of air cushion vehicles and high speed trains. Can you talk a little bit about that? That had to be a little different from what you were doing on the norm.

[User] Oh yes. The air cushion vehicle, first of all, it was the air cushion. Just take a disk and put a slot all the way around the edge, and blow air straight down. That'll put pressure under the disk and lift it up. You [blow air downward] around the edge, the air flows outwards. Well, it wants to flow inward but it can't go anywhere, and it builds up the pressure under there and so you can get an air cushion landing gear, or vehicle. But there were ideas—you could put several of those together in a train. Or you can build a track just for that purpose, and I don't know that anybody's ever done that, but that was some of what we were doing, what we were thinking about. But the idea was to use those to replace wheels. You get zero friction.

[Assistant] Well, before you left NASA Langley, you were over the subsonic and transonic aerodynamics division, and then became Special Assistant to the Director.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I've got them here, have I?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Oh, sure, the eight-foot transonic tunnel, high speed 7 x 10, pressure tunnel. [The one-thirtieth (1/30)]-meter, a cryogenic tunnel which was the tunnel prior to the big cryo tunnel that's out there on the transonic. At this point, I'm much more NASA oriented than NACA oriented. I'm not involved with the details. Now that's my simple way of looking at the difference between the two. There was still somebody that got to worry about details in the case of NASA, and somebody else has got to worry about the overall in the case of NACA. But that's the way I think about the two. In other words, that was just amalgamation. Somebody decided that we had to have somebody to take those over, and I was the guy that got tapped.\n\n Then, as Special Assistant to the Director for Aeronautics, that was one year up at David Taylor Model Basin [West Bethesda, Maryland], and I knew Harvey Chaplin up there, I’d communicated with him, and they were doing some V/STOL related work. I decided I wanted to get out of the NASA work. I did consulting afterwards. Harvey Chaplin and the guys at David Taylor were doing some V/STOL work, and I wanted to go up there. You know, I can't remember what tipped what on that. In the books, they asked for me. I was about ready to leave and they asked for me, so I spent a year up there.

[Assistant] That's good timing.

[User] I just spent a year up there with them on what they were trying to do, helping them as much as I could.

[Assistant] Why did you decide it was about time for you to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just spent a year up there with them on what they were trying to do, helping them as much as I could.

[Assistant] Why did you decide it was about time for you to leave?

[User] I was getting into too much red tape type of stuff. Too much administrative. I just wanted to get into the details. I wanted to plot data. You don't plot data as a Division Chief. Things weren't going to go anymore in the direction than what we had done, and they were going to die off. It's just the way it is, if industry doesn't pick up on things—you don't keep working on it just because you want to. That's what it amounted to. So most of the stuff I had gotten interested in had pretty well been done or was in good hands, and so I decided to quit.

[Assistant] More things to go do.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I want to ask you about your consulting work, but before we do that, give us your thoughts about what you feel the greatest contribution, or what you worked on that brought you the greatest satisfaction when you working for NACA and for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was getting into too much red tape type of stuff. Too much administrative. I just wanted to get into the details. I wanted to plot data. You don't plot data as a Division Chief. Things weren't going to go anymore in the direction than what we had done, and they were going to die off. It's just the way it is, if industry doesn't pick up on things—you don't keep working on it just because you want to. That's what it amounted to. So most of the stuff I had gotten interested in had pretty well been done or was in good hands, and so I decided to quit.

[Assistant] More things to go do.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I want to ask you about your consulting work, but before we do that, give us your thoughts about what you feel the greatest contribution, or what you worked on that brought you the greatest satisfaction when you working for NACA and for NASA?

[User] I guess this really sums it right there. I put it in the book.

[Assistant] The jet-induced effects.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I want to ask you about your consulting work, but before we do that, give us your thoughts about what you feel the greatest contribution, or what you worked on that brought you the greatest satisfaction when you working for NACA and for NASA?

[User] I guess this really sums it right there. I put it in the book.

[Assistant] The jet-induced effects.

[User] I enjoyed putting that book together and getting the help from those other guys. Peter Curtis is an Englishman, and Rich Margason had been working with us at Langley, and I started this, got a hold of Rich, and we had a lot of fun putting it together. We got into the hot gas ingestion part of things, which I haven't even talked about. We did some hot gas ingestion work at Langley, but I got Peter Curtis involved to help flesh out that area.

[Assistant] Sounds pretty comprehensive. Tell us about consulting. How did you enjoy the transition to your own boss?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess this really sums it right there. I put it in the book.

[Assistant] The jet-induced effects.

[User] I enjoyed putting that book together and getting the help from those other guys. Peter Curtis is an Englishman, and Rich Margason had been working with us at Langley, and I started this, got a hold of Rich, and we had a lot of fun putting it together. We got into the hot gas ingestion part of things, which I haven't even talked about. We did some hot gas ingestion work at Langley, but I got Peter Curtis involved to help flesh out that area.

[Assistant] Sounds pretty comprehensive. Tell us about consulting. How did you enjoy the transition to your own boss?

[User] Well, I enjoyed talking with people and a number of those reports toward the later thing were reports that I wrote in what I call consulting here.

[Assistant] You had quite a diverse group of folks. From everywhere from DoD [Department of Defense] and Naval to, I noticed, the Chrysler Corporation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed putting that book together and getting the help from those other guys. Peter Curtis is an Englishman, and Rich Margason had been working with us at Langley, and I started this, got a hold of Rich, and we had a lot of fun putting it together. We got into the hot gas ingestion part of things, which I haven't even talked about. We did some hot gas ingestion work at Langley, but I got Peter Curtis involved to help flesh out that area.

[Assistant] Sounds pretty comprehensive. Tell us about consulting. How did you enjoy the transition to your own boss?

[User] Well, I enjoyed talking with people and a number of those reports toward the later thing were reports that I wrote in what I call consulting here.

[Assistant] You had quite a diverse group of folks. From everywhere from DoD [Department of Defense] and Naval to, I noticed, the Chrysler Corporation.

[User] Yes. I noticed that one the other day reviewing all this stuff, and I can't remember how that came about. Oh, I know what it was. I had done the V/STOL tunnel, and somebody—whether Chrysler went to somebody at [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.] or at Langley for some help, I guess it was something like that, and whoever they got a hold of recognized the V/STOL tunnel I'd built was the same size, and sent them over to me. It's just that simple.

[Assistant] Just that simple.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I enjoyed talking with people and a number of those reports toward the later thing were reports that I wrote in what I call consulting here.

[Assistant] You had quite a diverse group of folks. From everywhere from DoD [Department of Defense] and Naval to, I noticed, the Chrysler Corporation.

[User] Yes. I noticed that one the other day reviewing all this stuff, and I can't remember how that came about. Oh, I know what it was. I had done the V/STOL tunnel, and somebody—whether Chrysler went to somebody at [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.] or at Langley for some help, I guess it was something like that, and whoever they got a hold of recognized the V/STOL tunnel I'd built was the same size, and sent them over to me. It's just that simple.

[Assistant] Just that simple.

[User] That kind of thing.

[Assistant] Was it different consulting with the military than it was working with corporations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I noticed that one the other day reviewing all this stuff, and I can't remember how that came about. Oh, I know what it was. I had done the V/STOL tunnel, and somebody—whether Chrysler went to somebody at [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.] or at Langley for some help, I guess it was something like that, and whoever they got a hold of recognized the V/STOL tunnel I'd built was the same size, and sent them over to me. It's just that simple.

[Assistant] Just that simple.

[User] That kind of thing.

[Assistant] Was it different consulting with the military than it was working with corporations?

[User] I don't think there was that much difference. It was a question of, this is our idea and what problem are we going to run into and how do we do it. It's the kind of thing I was dealing with, there wasn't that much difference. There was a difference for proprietary and classification, of course. Those kind of differences, you have to be careful of.

[Assistant] You did consulting work for about 20 years. Are you still doing it now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That kind of thing.

[Assistant] Was it different consulting with the military than it was working with corporations?

[User] I don't think there was that much difference. It was a question of, this is our idea and what problem are we going to run into and how do we do it. It's the kind of thing I was dealing with, there wasn't that much difference. There was a difference for proprietary and classification, of course. Those kind of differences, you have to be careful of.

[Assistant] You did consulting work for about 20 years. Are you still doing it now?

[User] Now, I've been out of it for quite a few years. There's just not that much going on, and they've got their own people. I'm happy. I'm quite happy.

[Assistant] I guess when you get on airplanes, you must look at them a little differently than the rest of us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think there was that much difference. It was a question of, this is our idea and what problem are we going to run into and how do we do it. It's the kind of thing I was dealing with, there wasn't that much difference. There was a difference for proprietary and classification, of course. Those kind of differences, you have to be careful of.

[Assistant] You did consulting work for about 20 years. Are you still doing it now?

[User] Now, I've been out of it for quite a few years. There's just not that much going on, and they've got their own people. I'm happy. I'm quite happy.

[Assistant] I guess when you get on airplanes, you must look at them a little differently than the rest of us.

[User] Well, I check to see if the flaps are down on both sides—no! (laughter)

[Assistant] Maybe you can draw us a picture before we leave so we know how to check it out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, I've been out of it for quite a few years. There's just not that much going on, and they've got their own people. I'm happy. I'm quite happy.

[Assistant] I guess when you get on airplanes, you must look at them a little differently than the rest of us.

[User] Well, I check to see if the flaps are down on both sides—no! (laughter)

[Assistant] Maybe you can draw us a picture before we leave so we know how to check it out.

[User] I know what's going on out there. It's well done, so no problems. It doesn't bother me.

[Assistant] Do you see a lot of changes in aircraft coming in the next years, based on what you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I check to see if the flaps are down on both sides—no! (laughter)

[Assistant] Maybe you can draw us a picture before we leave so we know how to check it out.

[User] I know what's going on out there. It's well done, so no problems. It doesn't bother me.

[Assistant] Do you see a lot of changes in aircraft coming in the next years, based on what you know?

[User] Well, it's really a question whether—not in my lifetime. I'm already 84, so I'm not going to be around that much longer.

[Assistant] It'll take a while to develop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know what's going on out there. It's well done, so no problems. It doesn't bother me.

[Assistant] Do you see a lot of changes in aircraft coming in the next years, based on what you know?

[User] Well, it's really a question whether—not in my lifetime. I'm already 84, so I'm not going to be around that much longer.

[Assistant] It'll take a while to develop?

[User] The military has the XF-35, which by the way, one version of that is going to be a VTOL.

[Assistant] You’ll see your work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's really a question whether—not in my lifetime. I'm already 84, so I'm not going to be around that much longer.

[Assistant] It'll take a while to develop?

[User] The military has the XF-35, which by the way, one version of that is going to be a VTOL.

[Assistant] You’ll see your work.

[User] We were out just now at Langley Air Force Base, looking at the F-22 and the F-15s sitting there, and the F-35 is being built for the Air Force and the Navy, the Royal Air Force, for a number of military services. And the VTOL version is to serve the Army needs. So that'll be the next one.

[Assistant] I find it interesting, work that you've been doing all these years is still being used to day in developing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The military has the XF-35, which by the way, one version of that is going to be a VTOL.

[Assistant] You’ll see your work.

[User] We were out just now at Langley Air Force Base, looking at the F-22 and the F-15s sitting there, and the F-35 is being built for the Air Force and the Navy, the Royal Air Force, for a number of military services. And the VTOL version is to serve the Army needs. So that'll be the next one.

[Assistant] I find it interesting, work that you've been doing all these years is still being used to day in developing.

[User] Yes. Well, it's taken a long time for a lot of this stuff I've been working on to get anywhere. It'd really be interesting to see how the F-35 does. But the British want, definitely want it.

[Assistant] We're getting close to an hour, and I promised you before we started that we'd stop and kind of regroup and see what else you'd like to talk about. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were out just now at Langley Air Force Base, looking at the F-22 and the F-15s sitting there, and the F-35 is being built for the Air Force and the Navy, the Royal Air Force, for a number of military services. And the VTOL version is to serve the Army needs. So that'll be the next one.

[Assistant] I find it interesting, work that you've been doing all these years is still being used to day in developing.

[User] Yes. Well, it's taken a long time for a lot of this stuff I've been working on to get anywhere. It'd really be interesting to see how the F-35 does. But the British want, definitely want it.

[Assistant] We're getting close to an hour, and I promised you before we started that we'd stop and kind of regroup and see what else you'd like to talk about. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about?

[User] I guess we pretty well covered it.

[Assistant] Let's just stop for a second, and I'll let you take a look at your papers that you brought.\n\n [Pause]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, it's taken a long time for a lot of this stuff I've been working on to get anywhere. It'd really be interesting to see how the F-35 does. But the British want, definitely want it.

[Assistant] We're getting close to an hour, and I promised you before we started that we'd stop and kind of regroup and see what else you'd like to talk about. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about?

[User] I guess we pretty well covered it.

[Assistant] Let's just stop for a second, and I'll let you take a look at your papers that you brought.\n\n [Pause]

[User] This second to last one here is something I was asked to do for a conference in England. Just a, "Where are we? Where are we going?" But there's not much being done anymore in these areas.

[Assistant] So did the Royal Aeronautical Society in London contact you about doing the paper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess we pretty well covered it.

[Assistant] Let's just stop for a second, and I'll let you take a look at your papers that you brought.\n\n [Pause]

[User] This second to last one here is something I was asked to do for a conference in England. Just a, "Where are we? Where are we going?" But there's not much being done anymore in these areas.

[Assistant] So did the Royal Aeronautical Society in London contact you about doing the paper?

[User] Well, not the Society directly.

[Assistant] But you presented it to that conference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This second to last one here is something I was asked to do for a conference in England. Just a, "Where are we? Where are we going?" But there's not much being done anymore in these areas.

[Assistant] So did the Royal Aeronautical Society in London contact you about doing the paper?

[User] Well, not the Society directly.

[Assistant] But you presented it to that conference?

[User] Yes, I went over there to present it. But we've been through this stuff. That's where things stand, and now the people that operate these machines have got to be deciding what they want. If you want a jet-driven VTOL airplane, they can be built. Lockheed, you just go in and knock on Lockheed's door.

[Assistant] They can do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not the Society directly.

[Assistant] But you presented it to that conference?

[User] Yes, I went over there to present it. But we've been through this stuff. That's where things stand, and now the people that operate these machines have got to be deciding what they want. If you want a jet-driven VTOL airplane, they can be built. Lockheed, you just go in and knock on Lockheed's door.

[Assistant] They can do it?

[User] Well, in fact, they're building one. The F-35. (laughter)

[Assistant] What was the most challenging aspect during all this development that you encountered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went over there to present it. But we've been through this stuff. That's where things stand, and now the people that operate these machines have got to be deciding what they want. If you want a jet-driven VTOL airplane, they can be built. Lockheed, you just go in and knock on Lockheed's door.

[Assistant] They can do it?

[User] Well, in fact, they're building one. The F-35. (laughter)

[Assistant] What was the most challenging aspect during all this development that you encountered?

[User] I guess I don't think about the challenging aspect. I think about the interesting things to work on.

[Assistant] That kept you going, didn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in fact, they're building one. The F-35. (laughter)

[Assistant] What was the most challenging aspect during all this development that you encountered?

[User] I guess I don't think about the challenging aspect. I think about the interesting things to work on.

[Assistant] That kept you going, didn't it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever run across a time where someone told you that they may not want you to continue doing your research on this area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I don't think about the challenging aspect. I think about the interesting things to work on.

[Assistant] That kept you going, didn't it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever run across a time where someone told you that they may not want you to continue doing your research on this area?

[User] No. The supervisors that I had were all in favor of it. NASA and NACA was a highly technically-oriented organization. What are the problems and how do we attack them was the thing. NASA has got a lot broader base and broader area, and they don't, they don't have to get into that a lot with their stuff.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly appreciate you sharing the details with us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Generally good. Although there are folks on the Hill who like the program, and there are folks on the Hill who do not like the program. I think that’s pretty much like any program. When we were developing the RFI [Request for Information] and the Announcement, I had dual hats there. I was the Headquarters guy, and also the ISS cargo rep [representative] for ESAS output. I was working with Alan’s team on both of those aspects. My job as the ESAS requirements management kind of died down after the first few months as we transitioned all the ESAS requirements over to his program. Then I just picked up as the Program Executive with the standard Program Executive functions at NASA Headquarters.

[Assistant] What were some of the requirements from the ISS that needed to be included in the COTS program?

[User] It ended up being total mass per year, the kinds of experiments and research that we wanted to do as an Agency on the International Space Station. Those were times within NASA when we were actually taking stock of our entire research portfolio and redirecting it towards systems development, testing, and evaluation on ISS to allow us to develop those systems necessary for exploration. ESAS scoped our research portfolio down to a point where it was focused heavily on the transportation systems and exploration beyond low-Earth orbit.

[Assistant] It almost sounds simple, doesn’t it?

[User] Almost, yes.

[Assistant] Did you continue your role along with the selection? Were you involved in that? Can you share some of the details of how that progressed forward?