[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Making use of, I'm pretty sure they're all different people, folks who are connected to the university there in Madison.

[Assistant] At what point in training did that come?

[User] I'm guessing maybe midway or a little bit past midway? It wasn't super early.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's stick with Milwaukee first.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Two questions. Did the group tend to break down into subgroups, cliques? What did you do? Did you have any free time? And if so, without saying anything embarrassing, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because you were with them 6 hours a day.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they weren't cliquish in that you didn't have any time to go off and be a clique. You know, your entire day was structured up through about half of Saturday.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Saturday, I think we trained till noon, we had lunch, then at 2:00 you were off. But for some of us, and I was one of these, some of my Saturday time was given over to dentistry. I mean, they sent us this thing saying, you got to get all your dental work done before you come. Oh, but I couldn't afford it. And neither could apparently a lot of people so they had contracts with one or two dentists and every Saturday we were hieing off to the damn dentist.

[Assistant] Did you lose all your wisdom teeth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lost wisdom teeth. I had fillings. None of that stuff I'd ever been exposed to, you know. So I had several fillings and extractions. And so Sunday was pretty much the only day off.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, and Milwaukee being Milwaukee, it wasn't a town that was open to a lot of stuff on Sunday. So you could hang out a little bit, maybe go to a movie.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] More often than not, a lot of us ended up spending a chunk of Sunday trying to catch up because they gave us a bunch of reading, you know. And sometimes you'd try to practice the language and there wasn't, you didn't have cars, so your reach was limited.

[Assistant] Was there any phys ed component?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, and Milwaukee being Milwaukee, it wasn't a town that was open to a lot of stuff on Sunday. So you could hang out a little bit, maybe go to a movie.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] More often than not, a lot of us ended up spending a chunk of Sunday trying to catch up because they gave us a bunch of reading, you know. And sometimes you'd try to practice the language and there wasn't, you didn't have cars, so your reach was limited.

[Assistant] Was there any phys ed component?

[User] There was. There was a, there's a component that was regular. I don't remember how often, but we had swimming training. We had regular soccer and other phys ed kinds of things.

[Assistant] Right. None of it was a problem for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More often than not, a lot of us ended up spending a chunk of Sunday trying to catch up because they gave us a bunch of reading, you know. And sometimes you'd try to practice the language and there wasn't, you didn't have cars, so your reach was limited.

[Assistant] Was there any phys ed component?

[User] There was. There was a, there's a component that was regular. I don't remember how often, but we had swimming training. We had regular soccer and other phys ed kinds of things.

[Assistant] Right. None of it was a problem for you?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay, let's, well, let's talk about the Madison phase and then we'll talk about selection. So somewhere near the midpoint of the program, the entire group. Had anyone been deselected by the time you went to Madison?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the first deselection was a guy in my language group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Bill Phillip. I don't remember whether it was before or after Madison. I suspect it might have been before.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that was a strange thing. I don't know if you want me to talk about it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bill Phillip. I don't remember whether it was before or after Madison. I suspect it might have been before.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that was a strange thing. I don't know if you want me to talk about it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it.

[User] We were each interviewed by a couple of. [tape break] With these people and they had all kinds of questions. I discovered that they lacked a sense of humor. You know, I'd try to, as I typically did, joke around and they'd look at you very strangely.

[Assistant] Up to that point, you had not been given a psychological interview or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was a strange thing. I don't know if you want me to talk about it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it.

[User] We were each interviewed by a couple of. [tape break] With these people and they had all kinds of questions. I discovered that they lacked a sense of humor. You know, I'd try to, as I typically did, joke around and they'd look at you very strangely.

[Assistant] Up to that point, you had not been given a psychological interview or anything?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it was all new.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it was all new.

[User] No. It was very new. So all of us went through this. And my recollection is that the deselection was carefully scheduled so that. I remember we used to, used to have us do soccer on Saturday after the classes, maybe just before or just after lunch. And we'd be at soccer and somebody was missing. The first time that happened was Phil.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] By the time we got back, he was gone. And, you know, somebody announced that he was deselected afterwards. It was all a mystery. Nobody ever told you why. He just was gone when you got back.

[Assistant] A little creepy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By the time we got back, he was gone. And, you know, somebody announced that he was deselected afterwards. It was all a mystery. Nobody ever told you why. He just was gone when you got back.

[Assistant] A little creepy.

[User] Yeah. Very creepy. And the problem, well, there are probably an infinite number of problems with that. But one of the things that it did was it increased anxiety to a level that you could cut with a knife.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] From that point on, you know, because it was mysterious. Nobody knew why. And the guy seemed normal to us.

[Assistant] Right, right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Very creepy. And the problem, well, there are probably an infinite number of problems with that. But one of the things that it did was it increased anxiety to a level that you could cut with a knife.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] From that point on, you know, because it was mysterious. Nobody knew why. And the guy seemed normal to us.

[Assistant] Right, right. Yeah.

[User] You wondered maybe it was something in his background, but you didn't know that. So if it could happen to him, why not me?

[Assistant] Yeah. Did it tend to bring the group together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think there was one other deselection while we were in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] A couple of people sent home from Kenya, but the other deselection was a very quiet, almost effete young man, and we sort of wondered if there was anything in his mannerism or his sort of projected sexuality, whereas Phil seemed like one of us, you know, was involved in sports and so forth. So I remember two being deselected. And the second young man was clearly after the.

[Assistant] Madison.

[User] Madison sojourn. I think maybe there were only the two.

[Assistant] So let's now talk. The training now shifts over to Madison. And where do you stay at Madison?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of people sent home from Kenya, but the other deselection was a very quiet, almost effete young man, and we sort of wondered if there was anything in his mannerism or his sort of projected sexuality, whereas Phil seemed like one of us, you know, was involved in sports and so forth. So I remember two being deselected. And the second young man was clearly after the.

[Assistant] Madison.

[User] Madison sojourn. I think maybe there were only the two.

[Assistant] So let's now talk. The training now shifts over to Madison. And where do you stay at Madison?

[User] I'm pretty sure we stayed in some sort of dorm thing. We were on campus at the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] And language training continued?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Madison sojourn. I think maybe there were only the two.

[Assistant] So let's now talk. The training now shifts over to Madison. And where do you stay at Madison?

[User] I'm pretty sure we stayed in some sort of dorm thing. We were on campus at the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] And language training continued?

[User] Language training continued. Yeah, absolutely.

[Assistant] Was there, about the midpoint, was there language testing? Were you given an indication of your progress?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Language training continued. Yeah, absolutely.

[Assistant] Was there, about the midpoint, was there language testing? Were you given an indication of your progress?

[User] We did have a couple of tests, maybe about midpoint or maybe a little bit before. Yeah, we had a couple of tests and they told us where we ranked, you know, we were sort of graded.

[Assistant] And you?

[User] I, the first one I was an S-3, which was the highest, and I ended up in S-4 which was native speaker.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you were, that makes you an exception in your group, doesn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, the first one I was an S-3, which was the highest, and I ended up in S-4 which was native speaker.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you were, that makes you an exception in your group, doesn't it?

[User] Yeah, I, I was the highest in the group.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were a couple of others, I remember Mike Davidson, who were quite good, but nobody else had native fluency.

[Assistant] Yeah. Why you, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I like palling around with them and talking to them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And what I started to learn was how to create phrases rather than string words together. And I learned that early so I could think and talk in phrases.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that sort of gave me a real jump.

[Assistant] So you were having social contact with the instructors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what I started to learn was how to create phrases rather than string words together. And I learned that early so I could think and talk in phrases.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that sort of gave me a real jump.

[Assistant] So you were having social contact with the instructors?

[User] Yeah, limited, I mean, you know, but yeah.

[Assistant] But it was in Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I would, I would learn how to say a phrase and I'd practice and get it correct. And I learned more and more and more.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Whereas most language study, the way they were doing it, you know, it was typical language study. You learn words and then they try to get you to pull it together. And but rather than learning, oh, jambo and then trying to think the next thing is habare, I learned habare jaco, you know, I learned a whole phrase.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that, that seemed to work.

[Assistant] Yeah. You, I gather you were highly motivated in training because you really want, now you really want to get to Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whereas most language study, the way they were doing it, you know, it was typical language study. You learn words and then they try to get you to pull it together. And but rather than learning, oh, jambo and then trying to think the next thing is habare, I learned habare jaco, you know, I learned a whole phrase.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that, that seemed to work.

[Assistant] Yeah. You, I gather you were highly motivated in training because you really want, now you really want to get to Kenya?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the other, the other part of Madison was technical training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, that seemed to work.

[Assistant] Yeah. You, I gather you were highly motivated in training because you really want, now you really want to get to Kenya?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the other, the other part of Madison was technical training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the other, the other part of Madison was technical training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that?

[User] It was a blast because it was so foreign to everything in my background and makeup.

[Assistant] Were you aware it was any, were there any in the group who had agricultural farm experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that?

[User] It was a blast because it was so foreign to everything in my background and makeup.

[Assistant] Were you aware it was any, were there any in the group who had agricultural farm experience?

[User] Yeah, several.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Had actually seen a cow face to face?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, several.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Had actually seen a cow face to face?

[User] Uh huh. And I remember one or two actually, John Greer, who was sent home early.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He had grown up on a farm. There were a couple of others. Not, most of us had not, but a handful had.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what did they take you through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the animal husbandry more specifically because a lot of us were going to be in areas in the central highlands where everybody was going to have a cow and there were going to be sheep. So we had to learn some very basic things about the husbandry of cattle, sheep. There was also, again, a focus on grain production. I remember we saw pictures in a lecture about pyrethrum, which I had never heard of.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And actually I think it was at that point a couple of former colonial types, farm owners, were there to talk to us.

[Assistant] From Kenya?

[User] From Kenya. Yeah, mostly it was, um, I'm pretty sure they were all faculty.

[Assistant] Right, right. But they were trying to say, well, this is the way it works over there in Kenya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And actually I think it was at that point a couple of former colonial types, farm owners, were there to talk to us.

[Assistant] From Kenya?

[User] From Kenya. Yeah, mostly it was, um, I'm pretty sure they were all faculty.

[Assistant] Right, right. But they were trying to say, well, this is the way it works over there in Kenya.

[User] That's right, yeah. And, you know, talk about special aspects of animal husbandry and the problem with the native cows and how you had to keep them from breeding with the European cows and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] But didn't you feel like a fraud? I mean, you think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From Kenya. Yeah, mostly it was, um, I'm pretty sure they were all faculty.

[Assistant] Right, right. But they were trying to say, well, this is the way it works over there in Kenya.

[User] That's right, yeah. And, you know, talk about special aspects of animal husbandry and the problem with the native cows and how you had to keep them from breeding with the European cows and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] But didn't you feel like a fraud? I mean, you think.

[User] I did. I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. You know, in a week now, I'm going to go over and be the expert.

[Assistant] But you didn't point this out to anyone else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, yeah. And, you know, talk about special aspects of animal husbandry and the problem with the native cows and how you had to keep them from breeding with the European cows and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] But didn't you feel like a fraud? I mean, you think.

[User] I did. I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. You know, in a week now, I'm going to go over and be the expert.

[Assistant] But you didn't point this out to anyone else?

[User] No, I kept quiet about it. You know, there was a feeling that we got that was communicated, if not directly, it was clearly communicated indirectly that, look, you guys are bright, you got BAs. And even though you've only got a week, you're going to be years ahead of the Africans you're working with so you will know more than they do. Turned out that was a complete falsehood too.

[Assistant] Of course. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. You know, in a week now, I'm going to go over and be the expert.

[Assistant] But you didn't point this out to anyone else?

[User] No, I kept quiet about it. You know, there was a feeling that we got that was communicated, if not directly, it was clearly communicated indirectly that, look, you guys are bright, you got BAs. And even though you've only got a week, you're going to be years ahead of the Africans you're working with so you will know more than they do. Turned out that was a complete falsehood too.

[Assistant] Of course. Yeah.

[User] But there was this presumption, and I think this was true in all the early Peace Corps times, that if you've got a BA and, you know, you have a good record, we can train you to do anything.

[Assistant] Right, right. There were several lawyers in the group, weren't there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there was this presumption, and I think this was true in all the early Peace Corps times, that if you've got a BA and, you know, you have a good record, we can train you to do anything.

[Assistant] Right, right. There were several lawyers in the group, weren't there?

[User] Yeah, there were at least two or three. No, three. Mohan, Davidson, and Baker. Yeah, there were three.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And all of them had joined, I guess, immediately after finishing law school. So they had more education. There might even have been one or two people with masters. I'm not 100 percent sure, but most of us were newly minted BAs.

[Assistant] And was there any kind of test on the ag portion at the end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And all of them had joined, I guess, immediately after finishing law school. So they had more education. There might even have been one or two people with masters. I'm not 100 percent sure, but most of us were newly minted BAs.

[Assistant] And was there any kind of test on the ag portion at the end?

[User] Yeah, there were tests, you know, written kinds. We didn't have to perform anything.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] We did have to in groups sort of actually touch these animals and things from time to time, you know.

[Assistant] I would have lost it right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there were tests, you know, written kinds. We didn't have to perform anything.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] We did have to in groups sort of actually touch these animals and things from time to time, you know.

[Assistant] I would have lost it right there.

[User] They actually showed us how to inseminate a cow.

[Assistant] Okay. And did you or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They actually showed us how to inseminate a cow.

[Assistant] Okay. And did you or?

[User] I did not then. But I did do it once in Kenya.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They showed us how the hooves of the sheep had to be trimmed to prevent foot rot. And you'd put this purple stuff on it, you know, all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Now were the, there was two married couples at the beginning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. Dakin.

[Assistant] Three.

[User] Three. Mohan, Dakin, and Janet and her husband.

[Assistant] Benson.

[User] Benson.

[Assistant] Okay. Did the women took part in the training alongside?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three. Mohan, Dakin, and Janet and her husband.

[Assistant] Benson.

[User] Benson.

[Assistant] Okay. Did the women took part in the training alongside?

[User] They did.

[Assistant] So there was no distinction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Benson.

[Assistant] Okay. Did the women took part in the training alongside?

[User] They did.

[Assistant] So there was no distinction.

[User] Right alongside.

[Assistant] So the assumption was they were as much volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did.

[Assistant] So there was no distinction.

[User] Right alongside.

[Assistant] So the assumption was they were as much volunteers.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Okay. It's not always the case.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right alongside.

[Assistant] So the assumption was they were as much volunteers.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Okay. It's not always the case.

[User] The only time that it became obvious that there were real gender differences, I remember was when we had our motorcycle training in Kenya. And the women, a couple of them were small, Mohan was, and the women got special treatment on the motorcycle training, but otherwise they went through it just the way we did, everything.

[Assistant] So Madison wraps up and you're back in Milwaukee with about how many weeks left for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Okay. It's not always the case.

[User] The only time that it became obvious that there were real gender differences, I remember was when we had our motorcycle training in Kenya. And the women, a couple of them were small, Mohan was, and the women got special treatment on the motorcycle training, but otherwise they went through it just the way we did, everything.

[Assistant] So Madison wraps up and you're back in Milwaukee with about how many weeks left for training?

[User] Maybe three.

[Assistant] Okay. The tension is still very high?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only time that it became obvious that there were real gender differences, I remember was when we had our motorcycle training in Kenya. And the women, a couple of them were small, Mohan was, and the women got special treatment on the motorcycle training, but otherwise they went through it just the way we did, everything.

[Assistant] So Madison wraps up and you're back in Milwaukee with about how many weeks left for training?

[User] Maybe three.

[Assistant] Okay. The tension is still very high?

[User] Very high, because there's at least one selection, deselection coming.

[Assistant] Okay. And were you still being pulled out for psychological interviews all through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe three.

[Assistant] Okay. The tension is still very high?

[User] Very high, because there's at least one selection, deselection coming.

[Assistant] Okay. And were you still being pulled out for psychological interviews all through?

[User] I think so. I think so. Yeah.

[Assistant] And were some people interviewed more than others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I think so. Yeah.

[Assistant] And were some people interviewed more than others?

[User] That you don't know because they kept it secret.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Really very closely guarded.

[Assistant] Another, sometimes when groups begin to coalesce in training, there's a problem because often another technique they use for selection is peer ratings. I don't know, do you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That you don't know because they kept it secret.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Really very closely guarded.

[Assistant] Another, sometimes when groups begin to coalesce in training, there's a problem because often another technique they use for selection is peer ratings. I don't know, do you?

[User] I don't recall anything like that.

[Assistant] You didn't, uh, you'd like to be assigned with X, but not Y?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really very closely guarded.

[Assistant] Another, sometimes when groups begin to coalesce in training, there's a problem because often another technique they use for selection is peer ratings. I don't know, do you?

[User] I don't recall anything like that.

[Assistant] You didn't, uh, you'd like to be assigned with X, but not Y?

[User] I don't remember that.

[Assistant] Okay. It may not have been used.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall anything like that.

[Assistant] You didn't, uh, you'd like to be assigned with X, but not Y?

[User] I don't remember that.

[Assistant] Okay. It may not have been used.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else about training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember that.

[Assistant] Okay. It may not have been used.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else about training?

[User] No. I just remember it as being utterly exhausting because we were on the go all the time without hardly any break.

[Assistant] At any point in the training, was there discussion of the role you as Peace Corps might play going into a newly independent African country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else about training?

[User] No. I just remember it as being utterly exhausting because we were on the go all the time without hardly any break.

[Assistant] At any point in the training, was there discussion of the role you as Peace Corps might play going into a newly independent African country?

[User] A lot of points.

[Assistant] That there'd be suspicion of you and so forth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I just remember it as being utterly exhausting because we were on the go all the time without hardly any break.

[Assistant] At any point in the training, was there discussion of the role you as Peace Corps might play going into a newly independent African country?

[User] A lot of points.

[Assistant] That there'd be suspicion of you and so forth?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you recall the flavor of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of points.

[Assistant] That there'd be suspicion of you and so forth?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you recall the flavor of that?

[User] I thought that was done relatively well. I do remember people saying that a country, they won't have a clue about who you are because they won't have had contact, but many people will be suspicious and think you're CIA and other kinds of things. And they talked about the role and how we should handle things. And I was impressed that somebody, I'm not sure who, whether it was the director of the training, made it clear that not only were we not connected to things like the CIA, but should we ever be approached, we should make it clear to them that we were Peace Corps and would not countenance any kind of extra involvement of that sort.

[Assistant] And was there any discussion about particular, specifically about Africa, an African American going into the African setting of Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought that was done relatively well. I do remember people saying that a country, they won't have a clue about who you are because they won't have had contact, but many people will be suspicious and think you're CIA and other kinds of things. And they talked about the role and how we should handle things. And I was impressed that somebody, I'm not sure who, whether it was the director of the training, made it clear that not only were we not connected to things like the CIA, but should we ever be approached, we should make it clear to them that we were Peace Corps and would not countenance any kind of extra involvement of that sort.

[Assistant] And was there any discussion about particular, specifically about Africa, an African American going into the African setting of Kenya?

[User] Not one word.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Interestingly.

[Assistant] And we'll speak about that a little later but. And the other African Americans, there was nothing special about the training in relation to them? They were just part of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not one word.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Interestingly.

[Assistant] And we'll speak about that a little later but. And the other African Americans, there was nothing special about the training in relation to them? They were just part of the group?

[User] Right. The only one who had any sort of real difference was Roland Johnson, because Roland had been on Peace Corps staff before he became a volunteer.

[Assistant] Ah, okay. I didn't know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Answering questions. So he tried to make it clear that he had decided to volunteer and he wasn't, you know, a special agent of Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And he got accepted pretty quickly. So he was the only one for whom there was anything special.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Lenny and I, you know, we were just there, as was Roland.

[Assistant] Yeah. Training finally comes to an end, and the final selection is announced. Do you recall how that was done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lenny and I, you know, we were just there, as was Roland.

[Assistant] Yeah. Training finally comes to an end, and the final selection is announced. Do you recall how that was done?

[User] Not with great specificity. I mean, this last young man was deselected and again hied off before anybody could see him.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I remember that a lot of us were really pissed at that mode of selection. But at that point, we were also relieved it was done and we were going and it was now time to pack up and go to Kenya, that we didn't have as much time or energy to be pissed as relieved that training was over. But again, it was this very mysterious process. And you didn't have any chance to take leave of the person and find out what they'd been told because they were gone.

[Assistant] Yeah. So once training is over, what month was it then? Was it December?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not with great specificity. I mean, this last young man was deselected and again hied off before anybody could see him.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I remember that a lot of us were really pissed at that mode of selection. But at that point, we were also relieved it was done and we were going and it was now time to pack up and go to Kenya, that we didn't have as much time or energy to be pissed as relieved that training was over. But again, it was this very mysterious process. And you didn't have any chance to take leave of the person and find out what they'd been told because they were gone.

[Assistant] Yeah. So once training is over, what month was it then? Was it December?

[User] December.

[Assistant] Did you get any time at home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I remember that a lot of us were really pissed at that mode of selection. But at that point, we were also relieved it was done and we were going and it was now time to pack up and go to Kenya, that we didn't have as much time or energy to be pissed as relieved that training was over. But again, it was this very mysterious process. And you didn't have any chance to take leave of the person and find out what they'd been told because they were gone.

[Assistant] Yeah. So once training is over, what month was it then? Was it December?

[User] December.

[Assistant] Did you get any time at home?

[User] We did. My memory is it was maybe nearly a week.

[Assistant] Okay. And you then are buying enough underwear to last you two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. My memory is it was maybe nearly a week.

[Assistant] Okay. And you then are buying enough underwear to last you two years?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And handkerchiefs.

[User] Exactly. Saying goodbye to everybody, you know.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your folks and friends now that you're on your way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And handkerchiefs.

[User] Exactly. Saying goodbye to everybody, you know.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your folks and friends now that you're on your way?

[User] Um, I think there still was the trepidation about the distance, because communication was not impossible, but extraordinarily difficult so. And mail took forever and you could barely make a phone call, you know. So there still was the concern about the distance and not being able to get their hands on you immediately if anything was wrong. But by the time the training was over, certainly my family knew that this was something I was going to do, and they knew I was a pretty strong character. So they didn't worry that it wasn't anything I could handle.

[Assistant] You didn't have any second thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Saying goodbye to everybody, you know.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your folks and friends now that you're on your way?

[User] Um, I think there still was the trepidation about the distance, because communication was not impossible, but extraordinarily difficult so. And mail took forever and you could barely make a phone call, you know. So there still was the concern about the distance and not being able to get their hands on you immediately if anything was wrong. But by the time the training was over, certainly my family knew that this was something I was going to do, and they knew I was a pretty strong character. So they didn't worry that it wasn't anything I could handle.

[Assistant] You didn't have any second thoughts?

[User] No, absolutely committed.

[Assistant] Okay. So you pack it up and then report where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think there still was the trepidation about the distance, because communication was not impossible, but extraordinarily difficult so. And mail took forever and you could barely make a phone call, you know. So there still was the concern about the distance and not being able to get their hands on you immediately if anything was wrong. But by the time the training was over, certainly my family knew that this was something I was going to do, and they knew I was a pretty strong character. So they didn't worry that it wasn't anything I could handle.

[Assistant] You didn't have any second thoughts?

[User] No, absolutely committed.

[Assistant] Okay. So you pack it up and then report where?

[User] New York, where I think we must have met at the airport. There wasn't a meeting before that, and we were introduced to the other half of Kenya I, whom we had never met, the education group.

[Assistant] And that was about 50 teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, absolutely committed.

[Assistant] Okay. So you pack it up and then report where?

[User] New York, where I think we must have met at the airport. There wasn't a meeting before that, and we were introduced to the other half of Kenya I, whom we had never met, the education group.

[Assistant] And that was about 50 teachers?

[User] Yeah, about 50 teachers.

[Assistant] And how many were then in your group, 30 something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, about 50 teachers.

[Assistant] And how many were then in your group, 30 something?

[User] Yeah, 33, 34. Somewhere like that. And so we met them and I don't know whether or not there was a meal at the airport, but we got the powder on a little bit because I remember when we all filed on to the plane, it was a TWA plane, and there was a little bit of mixing. Not much, just a little bit. You know, people met one or two people who either were from the same town or had gone to the same school, had something in common. But mostly you hung with the people you knew.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And as I say, they were an interesting group. I remember one or two people I met on the plane. And we flew to Madrid. And I want to say we were there nearly overnight. Then we flew. Strange, we made two stops. I think we might have stopped in Athens, but that was short. Whatever the second stop, Madrid was a long stop. Then we went somewhere else and then straight on to Nairobi.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I'll ask you, do you recall your reception when you got to Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, 33, 34. Somewhere like that. And so we met them and I don't know whether or not there was a meal at the airport, but we got the powder on a little bit because I remember when we all filed on to the plane, it was a TWA plane, and there was a little bit of mixing. Not much, just a little bit. You know, people met one or two people who either were from the same town or had gone to the same school, had something in common. But mostly you hung with the people you knew.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And as I say, they were an interesting group. I remember one or two people I met on the plane. And we flew to Madrid. And I want to say we were there nearly overnight. Then we flew. Strange, we made two stops. I think we might have stopped in Athens, but that was short. Whatever the second stop, Madrid was a long stop. Then we went somewhere else and then straight on to Nairobi.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I'll ask you, do you recall your reception when you got to Kenya?

[User] I do.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And as I say, they were an interesting group. I remember one or two people I met on the plane. And we flew to Madrid. And I want to say we were there nearly overnight. Then we flew. Strange, we made two stops. I think we might have stopped in Athens, but that was short. Whatever the second stop, Madrid was a long stop. Then we went somewhere else and then straight on to Nairobi.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I'll ask you, do you recall your reception when you got to Kenya?

[User] I do.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.

[User] We arrived at the airport, which was a provincial seeming thing then. I mean, the new Jomo Kenyatta Airport is quite big and imposing. But this was a smallish airport.

[Assistant] This was just a year after independence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there's a whole coterie of Kenyans lined up to greet us as we're getting off the plane.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Among them is Jomo Kenyatta.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And there were talks and speeches, not long lasting, but very impressive. While we tried to figure out how do we get rid of these damn overcoats because we're sweating bullets.

[Assistant] Was anyone in your group chosen as a spokesman?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were talks and speeches, not long lasting, but very impressive. While we tried to figure out how do we get rid of these damn overcoats because we're sweating bullets.

[Assistant] Was anyone in your group chosen as a spokesman?

[User] Philip Schafer.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did he give remarks in Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Philip Schafer.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did he give remarks in Swahili?

[User] He gave a few. And I doubt that I.

[Assistant] Woke up the crowd?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quickly. But, you know, it's in all the packing up stuff. If it's handy, I'll, I'll actually give it to you and you can make a copy.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] I'll find it eventually.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So, the greeting.

[Assistant] Was the American ambassador? Who was the American ambassador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll find it eventually.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So, the greeting.

[Assistant] Was the American ambassador? Who was the American ambassador?

[User] Attwood.

[Assistant] And he was there, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, the greeting.

[Assistant] Was the American ambassador? Who was the American ambassador?

[User] Attwood.

[Assistant] And he was there, I'm sure.

[User] He was there.

[Assistant] And your friendly Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Attwood.

[Assistant] And he was there, I'm sure.

[User] He was there.

[Assistant] And your friendly Peace Corps staff?

[User] Yes. Dotty Chambers and Tom Quimby.

[Assistant] Tom was the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tom was there. He was the director.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'm trying to think who, if anybody, was the associate. It had to have been somebody for the teachers. I just, I don't remember. I don't think. Well, you weren't there yet. Were you?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Were you there?

[Assistant] Yeah. I may have been off checking on everything. I was. Yeah. So big reception.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to think who, if anybody, was the associate. It had to have been somebody for the teachers. I just, I don't remember. I don't think. Well, you weren't there yet. Were you?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Were you there?

[Assistant] Yeah. I may have been off checking on everything. I was. Yeah. So big reception.

[User] Big reception.

[Assistant] How did it feel to be in Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Were you there?

[Assistant] Yeah. I may have been off checking on everything. I was. Yeah. So big reception.

[User] Big reception.

[Assistant] How did it feel to be in Kenya?

[User] It was really extraordinary. I mean, we were all a little sick, many of us, because we'd had 50,000 inoculations before leaving. And, you know, you're tired because it was a long trip. But simultaneously.

[Assistant] Was it a charter flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Big reception.

[Assistant] How did it feel to be in Kenya?

[User] It was really extraordinary. I mean, we were all a little sick, many of us, because we'd had 50,000 inoculations before leaving. And, you know, you're tired because it was a long trip. But simultaneously.

[Assistant] Was it a charter flight?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No, it was commercial.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No, it was commercial.

[User] It was commercial.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And we were elated finally to be here, you know, to see Kenya and Africans and.

[Assistant] Was there any publicity in the Chicago papers when you left or by then the Peace Corps was routine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both groups. There was in-country training with local people for the most part doing, doing the training.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] There was some language.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's funny. It brings back memories. Ayeesh Genovie was our language teacher expert and there were other people in too.

[Assistant] Are the two groups together during this time, or were the teachers being peeled off and sent out to schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was some language.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's funny. It brings back memories. Ayeesh Genovie was our language teacher expert and there were other people in too.

[Assistant] Are the two groups together during this time, or were the teachers being peeled off and sent out to schools?

[User] I think we were together, at least initially. And then they may have been peeled off.

[Assistant] Okay, let's concentrate on your experience. Do you recall at what point you? At what point in the whole process did you get any kind of definition of what the job is that you were going to be assigned to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's funny. It brings back memories. Ayeesh Genovie was our language teacher expert and there were other people in too.

[Assistant] Are the two groups together during this time, or were the teachers being peeled off and sent out to schools?

[User] I think we were together, at least initially. And then they may have been peeled off.

[Assistant] Okay, let's concentrate on your experience. Do you recall at what point you? At what point in the whole process did you get any kind of definition of what the job is that you were going to be assigned to?

[User] During that two week period, the training included a number of visits by people from Settlement.

[Assistant] So that's, that's the ministry. It's an agency within the Kenya government that concentrates on these.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were together, at least initially. And then they may have been peeled off.

[Assistant] Okay, let's concentrate on your experience. Do you recall at what point you? At what point in the whole process did you get any kind of definition of what the job is that you were going to be assigned to?

[User] During that two week period, the training included a number of visits by people from Settlement.

[Assistant] So that's, that's the ministry. It's an agency within the Kenya government that concentrates on these.

[User] The resettlement projects.

[Assistant] Land resettlement areas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During that two week period, the training included a number of visits by people from Settlement.

[Assistant] So that's, that's the ministry. It's an agency within the Kenya government that concentrates on these.

[User] The resettlement projects.

[Assistant] Land resettlement areas.

[User] It was actually a ministry.

[Assistant] It was a ministry, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the minister came.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] A couple of assistant associate ministers.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And then the Department of Lands and Settlement, the actual organization, the director, the associate director, and then real people from the field. There were visits.

[Assistant] At that point, weren't there still a significant number of white Kenyans as well as?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of assistant associate ministers.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And then the Department of Lands and Settlement, the actual organization, the director, the associate director, and then real people from the field. There were visits.

[Assistant] At that point, weren't there still a significant number of white Kenyans as well as?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] African Kenyans in the ministries?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] African Kenyans in the ministries?

[User] Absolutely. The minister was African, but almost all of the department heads were European.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Almost all.

[Assistant] Now, this is 1964. Just.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. The minister was African, but almost all of the department heads were European.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Almost all.

[Assistant] Now, this is 1964. Just.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you had your first coherent discussion or talk in Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, actually, it was during that sort of Nairobi phase. I remember now we were first at this Y. Really we got sent to the Kenya Institute, KIA, of Administration. That's where we are for this two week period. And there were service people and other people, like we got introduced to some of the kinds of people who were going to be staff out in the field, that assistance.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I remember having a conversation in Swahili with one of the agricultural assistants.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Had little English. Most of these folk had technical training and spoke a teeny bit of English, perhaps, but Swahili was their lingua franca.

[Assistant] But many, many of them also would have a first language like Kikuyu.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I remember having a conversation in Swahili with one of the agricultural assistants.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Had little English. Most of these folk had technical training and spoke a teeny bit of English, perhaps, but Swahili was their lingua franca.

[Assistant] But many, many of them also would have a first language like Kikuyu.

[User] Oh, yeah. All of them.

[Assistant] So Swahili was an added on and then English would be on top of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember my first conversation there. I was surprised. While we were training, some of the teachers talked to us about this phrase Kiswahili cha jikoni, meaning Kiswahili in the kitchen.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which is, you know, broken Swahili that real Swahili speakers don't use. I remember learning, the Swahili that we learned was the correct Swahili. And it's, it's a beautiful language full of concordances and so forth. Nobody used it. It's like, um, kitchen Swahili reminds you of the English equivalent in the movies where people are talking to Native Americans. How, me speak to? You know, that kind of Swahili. I no go.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And it threw me off a little. I mean, I could understand it, but I expected people to speak the way we'd been taught, but almost nobody did.

[Assistant] Okay, um, but you were able to jump into Swahili conversation without hesitation, even though there was some surprises there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is, you know, broken Swahili that real Swahili speakers don't use. I remember learning, the Swahili that we learned was the correct Swahili. And it's, it's a beautiful language full of concordances and so forth. Nobody used it. It's like, um, kitchen Swahili reminds you of the English equivalent in the movies where people are talking to Native Americans. How, me speak to? You know, that kind of Swahili. I no go.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And it threw me off a little. I mean, I could understand it, but I expected people to speak the way we'd been taught, but almost nobody did.

[Assistant] Okay, um, but you were able to jump into Swahili conversation without hesitation, even though there was some surprises there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] At what point during the two, at any point during the two weeks were you asked any, anything about assignment preference? You'd rather be alone or with or in this area or that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were discussions of that kind.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I don't know whether that got all the weight in the world. I think there were clearly personal considerations that determined where people were sent. Preferences may have had something to do with, but.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I learned that I got sent to one of the most forlorn places because it was presumed that I could handle it. And I was good at language and I had the kind of personality. So it was that rather than my preference. I don't think I would have chosen my spot.

[Assistant] Okay. Initially you were assigned alone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I learned that I got sent to one of the most forlorn places because it was presumed that I could handle it. And I was good at language and I had the kind of personality. So it was that rather than my preference. I don't think I would have chosen my spot.

[Assistant] Okay. Initially you were assigned alone?

[User] No. Well, certainly there weren't other Peace Corps people, but initially all of us, without exception, were assigned as assistant settlement officers. So we worked with the settlement officer at some place, and there was a period of training, mentorship. As many settlement officers were European then as African.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Mine was African. He was from [inaudible].

[Assistant] And where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, certainly there weren't other Peace Corps people, but initially all of us, without exception, were assigned as assistant settlement officers. So we worked with the settlement officer at some place, and there was a period of training, mentorship. As many settlement officers were European then as African.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Mine was African. He was from [inaudible].

[Assistant] And where were you assigned?

[User] Thomsons Falls.

[Assistant] Can you give a quick description of where it is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mine was African. He was from [inaudible].

[Assistant] And where were you assigned?

[User] Thomsons Falls.

[Assistant] Can you give a quick description of where it is?

[User] It's 160 or 70 miles from Nairobi north and east. It was an area of some European settlement. Lots of sheep, pyrethrum. [phone rings] The center of European settlement was the Thomsons Falls Country Club, which I visited once or twice, and you know, there were Europeans still around and there was horse racing and genteel drinking and.

[Assistant] There was a, there were a fair number of white Kenyans who stayed on after independence and were considered Kenyan citizens.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's 160 or 70 miles from Nairobi north and east. It was an area of some European settlement. Lots of sheep, pyrethrum. [phone rings] The center of European settlement was the Thomsons Falls Country Club, which I visited once or twice, and you know, there were Europeans still around and there was horse racing and genteel drinking and.

[Assistant] There was a, there were a fair number of white Kenyans who stayed on after independence and were considered Kenyan citizens.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Citizens?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. What was the traditional area you were in? Was it Kikuyu?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Citizens?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. What was the traditional area you were in? Was it Kikuyu?

[User] Kikuyu. Totally Kikuyu. Most of the Europeans with whom we worked, I think, hadn't planned on remaining permanently in Kenya. It was a sort of transitional period until they made arrangements for the next stage of life.

[Assistant] Did many of them go on to Rhodesia and South Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. What was the traditional area you were in? Was it Kikuyu?

[User] Kikuyu. Totally Kikuyu. Most of the Europeans with whom we worked, I think, hadn't planned on remaining permanently in Kenya. It was a sort of transitional period until they made arrangements for the next stage of life.

[Assistant] Did many of them go on to Rhodesia and South Africa?

[User] Most did. Some went to Britain, but many went to South Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah. So well, we'll get that when we get into the job situation. So now the group, after two weeks, is finally breaking up and going out to assignments. Was that a wrench? I mean, you'd been together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kikuyu. Totally Kikuyu. Most of the Europeans with whom we worked, I think, hadn't planned on remaining permanently in Kenya. It was a sort of transitional period until they made arrangements for the next stage of life.

[Assistant] Did many of them go on to Rhodesia and South Africa?

[User] Most did. Some went to Britain, but many went to South Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah. So well, we'll get that when we get into the job situation. So now the group, after two weeks, is finally breaking up and going out to assignments. Was that a wrench? I mean, you'd been together.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] And there's an intensity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most did. Some went to Britain, but many went to South Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah. So well, we'll get that when we get into the job situation. So now the group, after two weeks, is finally breaking up and going out to assignments. Was that a wrench? I mean, you'd been together.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] And there's an intensity.

[User] There was, and I remember it vividly. Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In position.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The driver was Akamba who spoke no English whatsoever. And one of the clerks from the office there came. And he had decent English.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The settlement officer didn't come. [tape break]

[Assistant] So they picked you up. Finally figured out how to get the motorcycle. Did Peace Corps supply the motorcycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The driver was Akamba who spoke no English whatsoever. And one of the clerks from the office there came. And he had decent English.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The settlement officer didn't come. [tape break]

[Assistant] So they picked you up. Finally figured out how to get the motorcycle. Did Peace Corps supply the motorcycle?

[User] Actually the government of Kenya issued it.

[Assistant] So it was, what kind of cycle was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The settlement officer didn't come. [tape break]

[Assistant] So they picked you up. Finally figured out how to get the motorcycle. Did Peace Corps supply the motorcycle?

[User] Actually the government of Kenya issued it.

[Assistant] So it was, what kind of cycle was it?

[User] A Triumph.

[Assistant] So it was British made. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually the government of Kenya issued it.

[Assistant] So it was, what kind of cycle was it?

[User] A Triumph.

[Assistant] So it was British made. Okay.

[User] And everybody got one. And they all had government licenses. Mine was GK3040.

[Assistant] Did, did everyone took? Not everyone had ridden motorcycles before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A Triumph.

[Assistant] So it was British made. Okay.

[User] And everybody got one. And they all had government licenses. Mine was GK3040.

[Assistant] Did, did everyone took? Not everyone had ridden motorcycles before.

[User] No, I hadn't.

[Assistant] So all of a sudden. Were there any serious mishaps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, once they did it, I remember this guy, Buckminster, who came out and trained us. We had two or three sessions. Once they did it, they assumed, all right, you're ready. You know, that's it. Now, the good thing about it was this is '64, '65.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In Kenya, there were only a handful of cars up country.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Nairobi is a little car but nothing.

[Assistant] Yeah. The growth came later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nairobi is a little car but nothing.

[Assistant] Yeah. The growth came later.

[User] Yeah, much later.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I'm sure there would have been many more mishaps and even fatalities if the road had been more crowded because, um, we just were far from expert.

[Assistant] Do you recall if Peace Corps put any restrictions on your use of the cycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps didn't, but the government did. We had to follow government regulations, which was no personal use.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, you can use it to go into town to get groceries.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But you couldn't take it on holiday.

[Assistant] Into the city. Right. Right. And of course, no one ever did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, you can use it to go into town to get groceries.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But you couldn't take it on holiday.

[Assistant] Into the city. Right. Right. And of course, no one ever did.

[User] Nobody ever did.

[Assistant] Okay, we'll get there. So now you go off into the wild blue yonder in the truck with a Swahili speaking truck driver.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But you couldn't take it on holiday.

[Assistant] Into the city. Right. Right. And of course, no one ever did.

[User] Nobody ever did.

[Assistant] Okay, we'll get there. So now you go off into the wild blue yonder in the truck with a Swahili speaking truck driver.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And mostly it's a relatively short trip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody ever did.

[Assistant] Okay, we'll get there. So now you go off into the wild blue yonder in the truck with a Swahili speaking truck driver.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And mostly it's a relatively short trip.

[User] Actually, um, probably. I mean, you couldn't do a lot of fast driving. I want to say it was 4 hours anyway. More than that maybe. Four or 5 hours. Because, I mean, the roads were rutted, and, you know, you couldn't do 60.

[Assistant] Were you at all apprehensive? I mean, you're really going into the unknown at this point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] And mostly it's a relatively short trip.

[User] Actually, um, probably. I mean, you couldn't do a lot of fast driving. I want to say it was 4 hours anyway. More than that maybe. Four or 5 hours. Because, I mean, the roads were rutted, and, you know, you couldn't do 60.

[Assistant] Were you at all apprehensive? I mean, you're really going into the unknown at this point.

[User] I was, because I didn't know the place or really anybody where I was going, and it had been made clear to me that I was on an escarpment. The settlement scheme was called Shamata. The Thomsons Falls was this town, but really where I was going was Shamata. And you'd go from Thomsons Falls up on the escarpment, up 9,000 some odd feet in altitude. And there was nothing up there except, you know, the Aberdares.

[Assistant] Yeah. The mountains.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, um, probably. I mean, you couldn't do a lot of fast driving. I want to say it was 4 hours anyway. More than that maybe. Four or 5 hours. Because, I mean, the roads were rutted, and, you know, you couldn't do 60.

[Assistant] Were you at all apprehensive? I mean, you're really going into the unknown at this point.

[User] I was, because I didn't know the place or really anybody where I was going, and it had been made clear to me that I was on an escarpment. The settlement scheme was called Shamata. The Thomsons Falls was this town, but really where I was going was Shamata. And you'd go from Thomsons Falls up on the escarpment, up 9,000 some odd feet in altitude. And there was nothing up there except, you know, the Aberdares.

[Assistant] Yeah. The mountains.

[User] And nothing was nearby. So you could come back to T Falls, which I want to say was 20 miles or so, you know, rough miles.

[Assistant] From the scheme?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, because I didn't know the place or really anybody where I was going, and it had been made clear to me that I was on an escarpment. The settlement scheme was called Shamata. The Thomsons Falls was this town, but really where I was going was Shamata. And you'd go from Thomsons Falls up on the escarpment, up 9,000 some odd feet in altitude. And there was nothing up there except, you know, the Aberdares.

[Assistant] Yeah. The mountains.

[User] And nothing was nearby. So you could come back to T Falls, which I want to say was 20 miles or so, you know, rough miles.

[Assistant] From the scheme?

[User] From the scheme.

[Assistant] Where you ended up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And nothing was nearby. So you could come back to T Falls, which I want to say was 20 miles or so, you know, rough miles.

[Assistant] From the scheme?

[User] From the scheme.

[Assistant] Where you ended up.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Yeah, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the scheme.

[Assistant] Where you ended up.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Yeah, go ahead.

[User] I was a little apprehensive about being in a place so distant, you know?

[Assistant] In sending you out, had Peace Corps set up any kind of emergency communication system? I mean, if you were to double over with some disease, you would jump on your cycle and drive 6 hours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not to my knowledge.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Not to my knowledge. What they did was they gave us a medical kit and said you're on your own.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It's a pretty well supplied medical kit, but.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And was there any, I guess it may have come later, any talk of if there's political trouble, this is what you should do? Or if we need to get in touch with you in a crisis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a pretty well supplied medical kit, but.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And was there any, I guess it may have come later, any talk of if there's political trouble, this is what you should do? Or if we need to get in touch with you in a crisis?

[User] I don't remember that, at least initially. I do remember vaguely some sense that if there was trouble, there were gathering spots where.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But, you know, where I was the only way to get in touch with me was to ride up there.

[Assistant] No, well, okay, on the scheme?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No phones.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] There were some phones in T Falls.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But not on the scheme.

[Assistant] So you arrive in Thomsons Falls and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, I was going to be, I didn't have any factotum. Nobody hired. I'm there. So I spent the first night in this house by myself. And next morning, got on the bike, drove to the scheme office, met him, and told him I wasn't staying there. He thought that was funny. He said, alright, you come stay in my house, which was quite generous. But it turns out, one it was an enormous house and we could actually divide it in half and have two separate parts. He wasn't there much. Ephraim, okay, a little bit about Ephraim. Ephraim had been in the Home Guard. These were the Kenyans who really were part of a quasi-military arm of the colonialist government.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Whose job was to keep order and to really be one of the first lines of defense against the Mau Mau.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And as you can imagine, in Kikuyu areas, they were despised. Ephraim was really bright and quite competent.

[Assistant] Was he Kikuyu?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He would go Friday. He lived in Njebi. He would, he had his own vehicle. He'd drive into T Falls, leave the government vehicle, take his vehicle and go to Njebi. And he'd come back maybe Tuesday, as we had our settlement meetings on Tuesday.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And he drive with me back to the scheme. He'd be there Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then he's off.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So for the most part.

[Assistant] Did he have a family in Njebi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know, half the week or more, he wasn't there. So I was pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was easy to share the house because he was on his own there and wasn't there most of the time.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we got along fine. You know, he was a boon companion, but he was really not happy where he was.

[Assistant] Well, okay, let's think about the first weeks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was easy to share the house because he was on his own there and wasn't there most of the time.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we got along fine. You know, he was a boon companion, but he was really not happy where he was.

[Assistant] Well, okay, let's think about the first weeks.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You're way out at the end of nowhere, with Ephraim not being a hands on, right there settlement officer. First, second, third day. What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we got along fine. You know, he was a boon companion, but he was really not happy where he was.

[Assistant] Well, okay, let's think about the first weeks.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You're way out at the end of nowhere, with Ephraim not being a hands on, right there settlement officer. First, second, third day. What did you do?

[User] Well, the settlement operation was reasonably well organized in most places to the extent that there was an office, there was a staff, and there were ongoing operations. You know, the veterinary assistants and agriculturalists all had jobs to do. And they were out instructing people and so forth.

[Assistant] So who did they take their orders from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's two-fold, in a sense, in that they came from separate departments, extension departments.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But essentially they were under the control of the settlement officer. They were seconded, is the British phrase, to the settlement scheme. And the settlement officer ran everything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I worked with them and they were happy to have me be there because Ephraim wasn't around a lot, you know. So they, they taught me and they came to me with questions and.

[Assistant] But the first week, what the hell did you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I worked with them and they were happy to have me be there because Ephraim wasn't around a lot, you know. So they, they taught me and they came to me with questions and.

[Assistant] But the first week, what the hell did you know?

[User] I didn't know much. But, you know, it's funny, that business about having a BA and being able to do some stuff. I knew, for example, how to create a ledger.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so we made a real ledger because you had to keep track of the loan accounts and all of the disbursements for each farmer. So you know, went in, got these big books, and it was all by hand but we made real ledgers and columns headed with, you know, what did I know? But it was common sense. So it was stuff like that that needed to be done. People hadn't been there that long. So, you know, things were, the operation was in its infancy.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, so was independence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In fact, there was still people coming in.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So there were regulations and procedures. Each person was to get so much of X and Y, and when you had the distribution, you had to record and they had to sign.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I did things like create the ledger and help them construct records. And they would take me out often, you know, they'd be on the back of the motorcycle and we'd go around and look at this issue and this issue.

[Assistant] That would be you and one of the other settlements officers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there were regulations and procedures. Each person was to get so much of X and Y, and when you had the distribution, you had to record and they had to sign.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I did things like create the ledger and help them construct records. And they would take me out often, you know, they'd be on the back of the motorcycle and we'd go around and look at this issue and this issue.

[Assistant] That would be you and one of the other settlements officers?

[User] One of the settlement staff, yeah. Sometimes, you know, Ephraim would be there. Um. Oftentimes the office would fill people with questions and issues and problems and requests. So you'd spend a lot of time in the office trying to figure out what they wanted and what you could do to help.

[Assistant] And were you the point of first contact or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did things like create the ledger and help them construct records. And they would take me out often, you know, they'd be on the back of the motorcycle and we'd go around and look at this issue and this issue.

[Assistant] That would be you and one of the other settlements officers?

[User] One of the settlement staff, yeah. Sometimes, you know, Ephraim would be there. Um. Oftentimes the office would fill people with questions and issues and problems and requests. So you'd spend a lot of time in the office trying to figure out what they wanted and what you could do to help.

[Assistant] And were you the point of first contact or?

[User] Pretty much, when Ephraim wasn't there.

[Assistant] Right, right. Well, let me, let me ask you a question. Well, two questions. Why did Peace Corps have to do this? Why weren't there Kenyans to fill?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the settlement staff, yeah. Sometimes, you know, Ephraim would be there. Um. Oftentimes the office would fill people with questions and issues and problems and requests. So you'd spend a lot of time in the office trying to figure out what they wanted and what you could do to help.

[Assistant] And were you the point of first contact or?

[User] Pretty much, when Ephraim wasn't there.

[Assistant] Right, right. Well, let me, let me ask you a question. Well, two questions. Why did Peace Corps have to do this? Why weren't there Kenyans to fill?

[User] Because they weren't trained yet. They, in fact, this is another really good thing about Peace Corps. They made it clear to us, particularly when we got to the country and being trained, if you're really successful, if you do your job, when you leave, there'll be a Kenyan to replace you. So you should be working yourself out of a job.

[Assistant] So that was explicit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they weren't trained yet. They, in fact, this is another really good thing about Peace Corps. They made it clear to us, particularly when we got to the country and being trained, if you're really successful, if you do your job, when you leave, there'll be a Kenyan to replace you. So you should be working yourself out of a job.

[Assistant] So that was explicit?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] That's completely explicit.

[Assistant] It doesn't always happen. Yeah. The other thing is, what was, those Kenyans you were working with immediately, the staff and then the farmers, what was their perception of who you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, that was the term I used there, not Black. They'd say, well who are? You know, I'm an American Negro. So when people would want to know, well, he's Mnegro. I don't know what exactly they thought it was. They knew it was weird.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they knew I wasn't quite European, but they weren't quite sure what it was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was exotic.

[Assistant] Were you ever mistaken for Asian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. Not so much in Thomsons Falls, but in Nairobi often, because I looked Swahili and my Swahili was correct.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So often I was mistaken for Swahili. Not the subcontinent of India Asia, no.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But Swahili a lot.

[Assistant] From the coast.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So often I was mistaken for Swahili. Not the subcontinent of India Asia, no.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But Swahili a lot.

[Assistant] From the coast.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So let's, uh, a couple of things. For the first three, four months, at the end of that, there seems to be a clear pattern of work that emerged. And did you feel any confidence in what you were doing or any confidence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But Swahili a lot.

[Assistant] From the coast.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So let's, uh, a couple of things. For the first three, four months, at the end of that, there seems to be a clear pattern of work that emerged. And did you feel any confidence in what you were doing or any confidence?

[User] Yeah, because I had a great staff. I really had people who knew what they were doing. My clerk, Kihara, spoke good English, was bright as a whip, was enormously useful and supportive. The agriculturalist and the vet, young people, had been well trained. And they had a terrific extension service. They were really very good. So I was well served by them, and a lot of what I attended to were the administrative issues like locating cattle to purchase and arranging their transport to the scheme and finding a place to get fencing material. And settling boundary disputes.

[Assistant] And that was the kind of thing you could do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So let's, uh, a couple of things. For the first three, four months, at the end of that, there seems to be a clear pattern of work that emerged. And did you feel any confidence in what you were doing or any confidence?

[User] Yeah, because I had a great staff. I really had people who knew what they were doing. My clerk, Kihara, spoke good English, was bright as a whip, was enormously useful and supportive. The agriculturalist and the vet, young people, had been well trained. And they had a terrific extension service. They were really very good. So I was well served by them, and a lot of what I attended to were the administrative issues like locating cattle to purchase and arranging their transport to the scheme and finding a place to get fencing material. And settling boundary disputes.

[Assistant] And that was the kind of thing you could do?

[User] That's the kind of thing I could do.

[Assistant] Yeah. So I'm gathering that the staff felt you had a role to play, that you weren't some annoying level of administration that had been imposed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because I had a great staff. I really had people who knew what they were doing. My clerk, Kihara, spoke good English, was bright as a whip, was enormously useful and supportive. The agriculturalist and the vet, young people, had been well trained. And they had a terrific extension service. They were really very good. So I was well served by them, and a lot of what I attended to were the administrative issues like locating cattle to purchase and arranging their transport to the scheme and finding a place to get fencing material. And settling boundary disputes.

[Assistant] And that was the kind of thing you could do?

[User] That's the kind of thing I could do.

[Assistant] Yeah. So I'm gathering that the staff felt you had a role to play, that you weren't some annoying level of administration that had been imposed?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Um, two things. You didn't spend 24 hours in the office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's the kind of thing I could do.

[Assistant] Yeah. So I'm gathering that the staff felt you had a role to play, that you weren't some annoying level of administration that had been imposed?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Um, two things. You didn't spend 24 hours in the office.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So now, in the thick with the first six months or so, how often did you leave the scheme? Or while you were on the scheme, what did you do when you weren't working?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Um, two things. You didn't spend 24 hours in the office.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So now, in the thick with the first six months or so, how often did you leave the scheme? Or while you were on the scheme, what did you do when you weren't working?

[User] Um, I was working. When you said you weren't in the office 24 hours, I wasn't, but I was in the house maybe 8 hours a day. The rest of the time I was on the scheme. I was either in the office or out in the field. I made it my business to visit every farmer in rotation, and I'd take notes on where they were, what their issues were, what they needed.

[Assistant] How many farmers approximately?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I was working. When you said you weren't in the office 24 hours, I wasn't, but I was in the house maybe 8 hours a day. The rest of the time I was on the scheme. I was either in the office or out in the field. I made it my business to visit every farmer in rotation, and I'd take notes on where they were, what their issues were, what they needed.

[Assistant] How many farmers approximately?

[User] In Shamata, there were a couple of hundred, maybe 250.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I just spent my time going around, you know.

[Assistant] And in this case, in that case, the conversations were in Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And, you know, this one would be having trouble with that, or this one. It wasn't all trouble either, you know? Something about who was especially good at something.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they were pleased because people didn't go around and visit them, you know what I mean?

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were pleased because people didn't go around and visit them, you know what I mean?

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.

[User] Kind of unusual and weird, but they were wonderfully hospitable and happy to see me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Many of them hadn't yet finished their houses or anything, but they'd always run off and get a kettle of hot water and make some tea. Yeah, we'd sit around and drink tea. And you know, they'd talk about stuff. I did a lot of that.

[Assistant] Did you, did you begin to get some sense of the traditional life of the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kind of unusual and weird, but they were wonderfully hospitable and happy to see me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Many of them hadn't yet finished their houses or anything, but they'd always run off and get a kettle of hot water and make some tea. Yeah, we'd sit around and drink tea. And you know, they'd talk about stuff. I did a lot of that.

[Assistant] Did you, did you begin to get some sense of the traditional life of the people?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Births, deaths, celebrations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many of them hadn't yet finished their houses or anything, but they'd always run off and get a kettle of hot water and make some tea. Yeah, we'd sit around and drink tea. And you know, they'd talk about stuff. I did a lot of that.

[Assistant] Did you, did you begin to get some sense of the traditional life of the people?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Births, deaths, celebrations?

[User] Absolutely. And it didn't take that long to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in a way, you had the advantage. Well, there were other Europeans in, on the scheme or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Births, deaths, celebrations?

[User] Absolutely. And it didn't take that long to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in a way, you had the advantage. Well, there were other Europeans in, on the scheme or not?

[User] Not on the scheme.

[Assistant] So to deal with Europeans, you had to go into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. And it didn't take that long to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in a way, you had the advantage. Well, there were other Europeans in, on the scheme or not?

[User] Not on the scheme.

[Assistant] So to deal with Europeans, you had to go into?

[User] T Falls.

[Assistant] Okay. So in a way, you were, you were in an environment where if you were going to do anything, you were involving yourself with the Kikuyu people who lived there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not on the scheme.

[Assistant] So to deal with Europeans, you had to go into?

[User] T Falls.

[Assistant] Okay. So in a way, you were, you were in an environment where if you were going to do anything, you were involving yourself with the Kikuyu people who lived there?

[User] Absolutely. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, well, did you find yourself going into T Falls much, you know, just to break away and get the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd go maybe once every two weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] You know, I'd go. We were. The Kenya workweek included a half day Saturday and I followed that. You know, that was what you're supposed to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So sometimes Saturday I'd go into T Falls, and, you know, I didn't. I knew the shopkeepers and some people around and people in the settlement office there. But I'd shop. I might grab a lunch someplace. Meet somebody. There were a couple of volunteers who were in the area sometimes, we'd meet. Then I'd go back.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did the European community and people try to recruit you as part of their circle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'd go. We were. The Kenya workweek included a half day Saturday and I followed that. You know, that was what you're supposed to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So sometimes Saturday I'd go into T Falls, and, you know, I didn't. I knew the shopkeepers and some people around and people in the settlement office there. But I'd shop. I might grab a lunch someplace. Meet somebody. There were a couple of volunteers who were in the area sometimes, we'd meet. Then I'd go back.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did the European community and people try to recruit you as part of their circle?

[User] They, they certainly tried to recruit.

[Assistant] Not recruitment, but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, I'm not giving them much credit. I remember there were local families that had me and other people over. And, you know, they were interestingly sometimes kind of lonesome for European or Western company too.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] So there were people in the area, not tons, but there were people. The district headquarters for settlement in T Falls was largely staffed, the upper level staff was all European.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, you know, they, they went out of their way to be nice and open to us, sometimes invite us for dinner. And there were contractors whom we met, you know, who lived locally.

[Assistant] Did, um, so how long before you made a trip back to Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there were people in the area, not tons, but there were people. The district headquarters for settlement in T Falls was largely staffed, the upper level staff was all European.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, you know, they, they went out of their way to be nice and open to us, sometimes invite us for dinner. And there were contractors whom we met, you know, who lived locally.

[Assistant] Did, um, so how long before you made a trip back to Nairobi?

[User] Probably three months.

[Assistant] And was it required to get together with the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, they, they went out of their way to be nice and open to us, sometimes invite us for dinner. And there were contractors whom we met, you know, who lived locally.

[Assistant] Did, um, so how long before you made a trip back to Nairobi?

[User] Probably three months.

[Assistant] And was it required to get together with the group?

[User] I think it was a required meeting, yeah, because I didn't have much occasion to go before then. I think it was probably.

[Assistant] Do you remember when the group first got back together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably three months.

[Assistant] And was it required to get together with the group?

[User] I think it was a required meeting, yeah, because I didn't have much occasion to go before then. I think it was probably.

[Assistant] Do you remember when the group first got back together?

[User] It was in Nairobi. There was a meeting. We'd had meetings of people in our area in Nakuru, and that involved, you know, the people within central, not the people in the west or wherever.

[Assistant] And that was just Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was a required meeting, yeah, because I didn't have much occasion to go before then. I think it was probably.

[Assistant] Do you remember when the group first got back together?

[User] It was in Nairobi. There was a meeting. We'd had meetings of people in our area in Nakuru, and that involved, you know, the people within central, not the people in the west or wherever.

[Assistant] And that was just Peace Corps?

[User] It was just Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And it was just the settlement people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in Nairobi. There was a meeting. We'd had meetings of people in our area in Nakuru, and that involved, you know, the people within central, not the people in the west or wherever.

[Assistant] And that was just Peace Corps?

[User] It was just Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And it was just the settlement people?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And was it, did someone come out from the Nairobi office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And it was just the settlement people?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And was it, did someone come out from the Nairobi office?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And, you know.

[Assistant] By then, was there a staff person in charge of the settlement? I think there was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And was it, did someone come out from the Nairobi office?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And, you know.

[Assistant] By then, was there a staff person in charge of the settlement? I think there was.

[User] There was. George somebody?

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And, you know.

[Assistant] By then, was there a staff person in charge of the settlement? I think there was.

[User] There was. George somebody?

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[User] And, so we'd try to see what was on our plates, what issues we had, what we needed, if anything, what observations we had. You know, they were going to pretty quickly put together another group, so they were interested in figuring out what they needed to know to better train the next group and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And how did your experience compare to when you're first getting together with the group again? How was the experience others were having?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was. George somebody?

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[User] And, so we'd try to see what was on our plates, what issues we had, what we needed, if anything, what observations we had. You know, they were going to pretty quickly put together another group, so they were interested in figuring out what they needed to know to better train the next group and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And how did your experience compare to when you're first getting together with the group again? How was the experience others were having?

[User] A lot of similarities. The main difference I think between and amongst us was some of us went into situations where we had more responsibility more quickly than others. Others went to places where often, you know, there was a European settlement officer and he was really in charge. And that was a major variation, you know. Also, resources. In central, we had more resources available more quickly. Some places it was more difficult to get stuff done.

[Assistant] Was that tribal maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, so we'd try to see what was on our plates, what issues we had, what we needed, if anything, what observations we had. You know, they were going to pretty quickly put together another group, so they were interested in figuring out what they needed to know to better train the next group and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And how did your experience compare to when you're first getting together with the group again? How was the experience others were having?

[User] A lot of similarities. The main difference I think between and amongst us was some of us went into situations where we had more responsibility more quickly than others. Others went to places where often, you know, there was a European settlement officer and he was really in charge. And that was a major variation, you know. Also, resources. In central, we had more resources available more quickly. Some places it was more difficult to get stuff done.

[Assistant] Was that tribal maybe?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So being in a Kikuyu area in a way had some advantages.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very real advantages.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I was there for three or four months in Thomsons Falls.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] At the end of which time, this was roughly true for most of us, this was part of the plan. Then they found spots for us to be settlement officers.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Was that part of the program design or did it evolve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was there for three or four months in Thomsons Falls.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] At the end of which time, this was roughly true for most of us, this was part of the plan. Then they found spots for us to be settlement officers.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Was that part of the program design or did it evolve?

[User] Um, that I can't say. I know that it seemed like part of the design, that it had happened to so many of us.

[Assistant] Right. Now, who, who was, who was in a position to make a judgment that you were ready to become a full time settlement officer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The district settlement officer. The guy in charge of the district.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] He assigns you.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] With Peace Corps support. But it was their decision, it was strictly Settlement.

[Assistant] Well, how did the district office get a reading on how competent you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But again, we had to go in every week to the meeting.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] They got some sense of where you were. You had to do reports.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They got some sense of how well you knew the place. And, you know.

[Assistant] Now, so after three, four months, you're being reassigned?