[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] I'm so happy to be able to get this in before you left. We’re going to start with some general questions and we’ll ease into your National Archives career. But first can you give me a little brief bio—where were you born, where did you go to school?

[User] Ok, I grew up in Michigan, near Detroit, and I went to Michigan State University, Wayne State University and at Wayne State, I got a degree in Library Science as well as a specialty in Archives Administration. I moved to Chicago and worked in the manuscript department at the University of Illinois at Chicago, which is where I really got my interest in conservation and bookbinding. I studied for over 12 years with a local well-known binder, Bill Anthony, who came to Chicago from Ireland and studied with him for quite a long time. And then I went to the Society of American Archivists, where I ran a couple of NEH-funded programs, one on conservation of archival materials. And the next project was on caring for photographic materials. So, that included workshops and doing site visits and assessments and developing a couple of manuals that were published. And then I came to the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you explain how you got your job at the National Archives?

[User] Well, there was an opening of the lab and given the work that I had been doing for a number of years and my focus on book conservation and the training that I had done, it seemed like a natural and like a wonderful place to come. I contacted all the people who were currently working in the lab and in preservation, Ken Harris and Norvell Jones. I was interviewed by Norvell at an American Institute for Conservation meeting that I think was in L.A. and we really hit it off. And then I came to Washington for my interview and here I was for a long time.

[Assistant] And this was 1985.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, I grew up in Michigan, near Detroit, and I went to Michigan State University, Wayne State University and at Wayne State, I got a degree in Library Science as well as a specialty in Archives Administration. I moved to Chicago and worked in the manuscript department at the University of Illinois at Chicago, which is where I really got my interest in conservation and bookbinding. I studied for over 12 years with a local well-known binder, Bill Anthony, who came to Chicago from Ireland and studied with him for quite a long time. And then I went to the Society of American Archivists, where I ran a couple of NEH-funded programs, one on conservation of archival materials. And the next project was on caring for photographic materials. So, that included workshops and doing site visits and assessments and developing a couple of manuals that were published. And then I came to the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you explain how you got your job at the National Archives?

[User] Well, there was an opening of the lab and given the work that I had been doing for a number of years and my focus on book conservation and the training that I had done, it seemed like a natural and like a wonderful place to come. I contacted all the people who were currently working in the lab and in preservation, Ken Harris and Norvell Jones. I was interviewed by Norvell at an American Institute for Conservation meeting that I think was in L.A. and we really hit it off. And then I came to Washington for my interview and here I was for a long time.

[Assistant] And this was 1985.

[User] I started in January of 1985. Right. That was Reagan's second term and there was a lot of concern about job freezes. And so I was basically brought in and signed in and sworn in and spent a week here and then went back to Chicago for about a month so I could pack and make arrangements to move.

[Assistant] You started right around the time that the National Archives was gaining independence from GSA. What was the atmosphere like around here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was an opening of the lab and given the work that I had been doing for a number of years and my focus on book conservation and the training that I had done, it seemed like a natural and like a wonderful place to come. I contacted all the people who were currently working in the lab and in preservation, Ken Harris and Norvell Jones. I was interviewed by Norvell at an American Institute for Conservation meeting that I think was in L.A. and we really hit it off. And then I came to Washington for my interview and here I was for a long time.

[Assistant] And this was 1985.

[User] I started in January of 1985. Right. That was Reagan's second term and there was a lot of concern about job freezes. And so I was basically brought in and signed in and sworn in and spent a week here and then went back to Chicago for about a month so I could pack and make arrangements to move.

[Assistant] You started right around the time that the National Archives was gaining independence from GSA. What was the atmosphere like around here?

[User] I think it was an exciting time and people were really happy. And I wasn't here for all of the years of people working towards it. But it certainly was a wonderful thing. And to have an agency that was independent and focused on the mission and goals of the archives and not part of another organization that had many other responsibilities, I think people were excited. Bob Warner was the Archivist and it just was a pretty exciting time. I still like to see that one photograph out of the steps on the Constitution Avenue side of the staff, the massive numbers of people representing freedom.

[Assistant] Were you in that photo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started in January of 1985. Right. That was Reagan's second term and there was a lot of concern about job freezes. And so I was basically brought in and signed in and sworn in and spent a week here and then went back to Chicago for about a month so I could pack and make arrangements to move.

[Assistant] You started right around the time that the National Archives was gaining independence from GSA. What was the atmosphere like around here?

[User] I think it was an exciting time and people were really happy. And I wasn't here for all of the years of people working towards it. But it certainly was a wonderful thing. And to have an agency that was independent and focused on the mission and goals of the archives and not part of another organization that had many other responsibilities, I think people were excited. Bob Warner was the Archivist and it just was a pretty exciting time. I still like to see that one photograph out of the steps on the Constitution Avenue side of the staff, the massive numbers of people representing freedom.

[Assistant] Were you in that photo?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] What was your job like when you first began at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was an exciting time and people were really happy. And I wasn't here for all of the years of people working towards it. But it certainly was a wonderful thing. And to have an agency that was independent and focused on the mission and goals of the archives and not part of another organization that had many other responsibilities, I think people were excited. Bob Warner was the Archivist and it just was a pretty exciting time. I still like to see that one photograph out of the steps on the Constitution Avenue side of the staff, the massive numbers of people representing freedom.

[Assistant] Were you in that photo?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] What was your job like when you first began at the National Archives?

[User] My job was as a senior conservator, so I did some treatment on paper-based materials as well as bond records. But since I had done so much training through the SAA job, I also began to establish a lot of basic training programs for archival staff and technicians in terms of records handling. We started to get into a more formal approach to holding’s maintenance. So, developing that part of the program and doing training all became part of what was going on.

[Assistant] And how has your job changed over the years? I guess you've been here over thirty years, so yes, I'm sure it's changed quite a bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] What was your job like when you first began at the National Archives?

[User] My job was as a senior conservator, so I did some treatment on paper-based materials as well as bond records. But since I had done so much training through the SAA job, I also began to establish a lot of basic training programs for archival staff and technicians in terms of records handling. We started to get into a more formal approach to holding’s maintenance. So, developing that part of the program and doing training all became part of what was going on.

[Assistant] And how has your job changed over the years? I guess you've been here over thirty years, so yes, I'm sure it's changed quite a bit.

[User] After being hired as a senior conservator, I was promoted to supervisory conservator and then in 2002 I was promoted to chief of conservation. So, over the years my responsibilities got progressively greater and I certainly gained more knowledge and experience. As you know, working here is a lifetime of learning just in terms of the records and the people and the programs. So, a lot of things you kind of had to learn as he went because it hadn't been done before. I came to the Archives also at a time when the conservation lab was really expanding. Norvell was the second conservator that had been hired. The very first one was a man named Timothy Vitale. So, I was amongst the very few conservators that were brought on and then that just expanded over the years. So the lab was growing, the preservation program was growing, and everybody was really excited. It was a great place to be.

[Assistant] And you were here during the move to College Park and you yourself moved. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like working downtown versus working in College Park?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It looks amazing. Yeah, that really does.

[Assistant] Thank you little about the history of the Constitution, but also the Bill of Rights which doesn't look quite as good as the Constitution. And can you talk about any knowledge you have about the history of that document and why it's not quite as crisp as the Constitution?

[User] Yeah, I don't know when the Bill of Rights came to NARA

[Assistant] 1938.

[User] Yeah. OK, OK. And who had it before then?

[Assistant] The State Department. I think it was in a bound volume.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. OK, OK. And who had it before then?

[Assistant] The State Department. I think it was in a bound volume.

[User] OK, so it's probably one of those really big GPO bindings.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, it was really protected, probably not accessed and handled. The skin of the Bill of Rights doesn't seem like the very best quality and there is some modeling on the surface that you can see kind of little, not spatters, but little orangey areas. We don't know what that is; we were never able to figure that out. But I think the quality of the skin is probably not as good. The Constitution looks really great. It was, you know, in the custody of the Department of State, transferred, I think that it was in 1921, to the Library of Congress. So, the Constitution and Declaration were both exhibited at the library. And I think the conditions of the library really led them to start talking to NBS about doing something, just because of the really major changes in our age that would happen kind of seasonally. That had a big impact on the Declaration and the tear in the upper right corner. There were insects that were feeding on the Constitution. Luckily, the insects didn't get to the Declaration. But, you know, some of the bad things that happened were really under the care of the Library of Congress, so we always have to be kind of careful of not maligning one of our sister institutions. But, you know, then they started the discussions to figure out what they could do to improve conditions and started those conversations before World War II. And then the war interrupted everything and the documents were removed to Fort Knox. And there had been an examination by a conservator, George Stout, at the library before they went to Fort Knox. And then while they were in residence there, the Declaration was treated and they repaired that corner that had torn because of the skin and the changing RH. And then they were encased after the war.

[Assistant] Yeah, I saw that the Declaration was on display at the Jefferson Memorial during the anniversary. Was that outside? [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, so it's probably one of those really big GPO bindings.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, it was really protected, probably not accessed and handled. The skin of the Bill of Rights doesn't seem like the very best quality and there is some modeling on the surface that you can see kind of little, not spatters, but little orangey areas. We don't know what that is; we were never able to figure that out. But I think the quality of the skin is probably not as good. The Constitution looks really great. It was, you know, in the custody of the Department of State, transferred, I think that it was in 1921, to the Library of Congress. So, the Constitution and Declaration were both exhibited at the library. And I think the conditions of the library really led them to start talking to NBS about doing something, just because of the really major changes in our age that would happen kind of seasonally. That had a big impact on the Declaration and the tear in the upper right corner. There were insects that were feeding on the Constitution. Luckily, the insects didn't get to the Declaration. But, you know, some of the bad things that happened were really under the care of the Library of Congress, so we always have to be kind of careful of not maligning one of our sister institutions. But, you know, then they started the discussions to figure out what they could do to improve conditions and started those conversations before World War II. And then the war interrupted everything and the documents were removed to Fort Knox. And there had been an examination by a conservator, George Stout, at the library before they went to Fort Knox. And then while they were in residence there, the Declaration was treated and they repaired that corner that had torn because of the skin and the changing RH. And then they were encased after the war.

[Assistant] Yeah, I saw that the Declaration was on display at the Jefferson Memorial during the anniversary. Was that outside? [Laughter]

[User] Yes, I think it was.

[Assistant] And that was before they were sealed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, it was really protected, probably not accessed and handled. The skin of the Bill of Rights doesn't seem like the very best quality and there is some modeling on the surface that you can see kind of little, not spatters, but little orangey areas. We don't know what that is; we were never able to figure that out. But I think the quality of the skin is probably not as good. The Constitution looks really great. It was, you know, in the custody of the Department of State, transferred, I think that it was in 1921, to the Library of Congress. So, the Constitution and Declaration were both exhibited at the library. And I think the conditions of the library really led them to start talking to NBS about doing something, just because of the really major changes in our age that would happen kind of seasonally. That had a big impact on the Declaration and the tear in the upper right corner. There were insects that were feeding on the Constitution. Luckily, the insects didn't get to the Declaration. But, you know, some of the bad things that happened were really under the care of the Library of Congress, so we always have to be kind of careful of not maligning one of our sister institutions. But, you know, then they started the discussions to figure out what they could do to improve conditions and started those conversations before World War II. And then the war interrupted everything and the documents were removed to Fort Knox. And there had been an examination by a conservator, George Stout, at the library before they went to Fort Knox. And then while they were in residence there, the Declaration was treated and they repaired that corner that had torn because of the skin and the changing RH. And then they were encased after the war.

[Assistant] Yeah, I saw that the Declaration was on display at the Jefferson Memorial during the anniversary. Was that outside? [Laughter]

[User] Yes, I think it was.

[Assistant] And that was before they were sealed.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] I can't imagine that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it was.

[Assistant] And that was before they were sealed.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] I can't imagine that.

[User] I mean, things have changed so much in terms of people's understanding.

[Assistant] Yeah, I know it's hard to speculate, but could you speculate how long these documents could last? I know you said earlier they'll be in this case for 100 years and I’m sure new technology will come along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] I can't imagine that.

[User] I mean, things have changed so much in terms of people's understanding.

[Assistant] Yeah, I know it's hard to speculate, but could you speculate how long these documents could last? I know you said earlier they'll be in this case for 100 years and I’m sure new technology will come along.

[User] Theoretically, I mean, and that's kind of extrapolating the numbers that were achieved when the seal was made. I think the seal could last many, many decades. You know, things keep changing in terms of knowledge and new technology. We do look at the documents and the encasements quarterly, so we observe any changes that are taking place, any shifting. The other thing that's going on is we have been working with a man who had been involved at NIST, Charles Tilford, who I think he's a physicist, but he's retired now. But he also worked with the Library of Congress on their encasements and has developed technology to create an oxygen sensor so we can use a probe and figure out what the interior conditions of the encasement are. So, we're just getting started on that and we'll start with the transmittal page. And so I think readings over time will help to determine whether or not there needs to be some kind of intervention.

[Assistant] And you said the entire Rotunda was renovated. So did you have a role in the renovation and the restoration of the Faulkner murals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, things have changed so much in terms of people's understanding.

[Assistant] Yeah, I know it's hard to speculate, but could you speculate how long these documents could last? I know you said earlier they'll be in this case for 100 years and I’m sure new technology will come along.

[User] Theoretically, I mean, and that's kind of extrapolating the numbers that were achieved when the seal was made. I think the seal could last many, many decades. You know, things keep changing in terms of knowledge and new technology. We do look at the documents and the encasements quarterly, so we observe any changes that are taking place, any shifting. The other thing that's going on is we have been working with a man who had been involved at NIST, Charles Tilford, who I think he's a physicist, but he's retired now. But he also worked with the Library of Congress on their encasements and has developed technology to create an oxygen sensor so we can use a probe and figure out what the interior conditions of the encasement are. So, we're just getting started on that and we'll start with the transmittal page. And so I think readings over time will help to determine whether or not there needs to be some kind of intervention.

[Assistant] And you said the entire Rotunda was renovated. So did you have a role in the renovation and the restoration of the Faulkner murals?

[User] Kitty Nicholson was the lead, the contact for the firm that did the conservation. Olin Conservation did that treatment.

[Assistant] I’ve been trying to bug her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Theoretically, I mean, and that's kind of extrapolating the numbers that were achieved when the seal was made. I think the seal could last many, many decades. You know, things keep changing in terms of knowledge and new technology. We do look at the documents and the encasements quarterly, so we observe any changes that are taking place, any shifting. The other thing that's going on is we have been working with a man who had been involved at NIST, Charles Tilford, who I think he's a physicist, but he's retired now. But he also worked with the Library of Congress on their encasements and has developed technology to create an oxygen sensor so we can use a probe and figure out what the interior conditions of the encasement are. So, we're just getting started on that and we'll start with the transmittal page. And so I think readings over time will help to determine whether or not there needs to be some kind of intervention.

[Assistant] And you said the entire Rotunda was renovated. So did you have a role in the renovation and the restoration of the Faulkner murals?

[User] Kitty Nicholson was the lead, the contact for the firm that did the conservation. Olin Conservation did that treatment.

[Assistant] I’ve been trying to bug her.

[User] I will give you her home email address so you can reach her. But we have a lot of documentation on that project. And that was also a pretty amazing project. There are lots of photographs, slides, actually, but even taking the murals off of the walls was just an amazing feat given their size. And so, you know, the AI renovation team helped to get that contract going. But Kitty was the conservation liaison and they really worked closely with her.

[Assistant] Yeah, I’ll try to contact her again,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kitty Nicholson was the lead, the contact for the firm that did the conservation. Olin Conservation did that treatment.

[Assistant] I’ve been trying to bug her.

[User] I will give you her home email address so you can reach her. But we have a lot of documentation on that project. And that was also a pretty amazing project. There are lots of photographs, slides, actually, but even taking the murals off of the walls was just an amazing feat given their size. And so, you know, the AI renovation team helped to get that contract going. But Kitty was the conservation liaison and they really worked closely with her.

[Assistant] Yeah, I’ll try to contact her again,

[User] Yeah, that would be cool.

[Assistant] Not Charters related but can you tell me about the work you did in Baghdad with the Iraqi Jewish Archives and how that came about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there have been a lot of different Archivists. I remember some key things, I guess, about different Archivists. I remember Bob Warner was always very enthusiastic about the work of the Archives. And I think he made a point of coming around and just interacting with staff, including staff in the labs. So, that was always a pleasure. He seemed really interested in the work that was going on. I'm sure not just the conservation work, but the archival work as well. Since I grew up in Michigan and he was from Michigan, there was also this little kind of kismet thing going on, I'm sure as well. Frank Burke was just an Acting Archivist. He wasn't an official Archivist, but I remember him as just really being an amazing presence and being a great spokesperson for the National Archives. And again, just interested in everything that was going on. I remember John Carlin because he was the Archivist under whom we went to Baghdad and I guess he had to sign off on that [laughter], and he was also very supportive with the Charters project. And, one of the nice things about David Ferriero is that he has a long history of being actively involved and interested in conservation. So, it always makes you feel good when the person at the top of the agency is supportive and interested.

[Assistant] Can you talk about any particular challenges you have faced over the course of your career?

[User] Hmm. Oh, gosh. I mean, we all have our ups and downs. I'm not really thinking of any great negative challenges. I feel like I've always been given a lot of support and a lot of opportunities. The staff has been great. I'm really going to miss the place and the people and the records.

[Assistant] I was going to ask what you were going to miss most? Sounds like all of it.

[User] Well, there's another aspect for me, and that's I met my husband at the National Archives.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that because you're one of the many Archives couples!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Oh, gosh. I mean, we all have our ups and downs. I'm not really thinking of any great negative challenges. I feel like I've always been given a lot of support and a lot of opportunities. The staff has been great. I'm really going to miss the place and the people and the records.

[Assistant] I was going to ask what you were going to miss most? Sounds like all of it.

[User] Well, there's another aspect for me, and that's I met my husband at the National Archives.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that because you're one of the many Archives couples!

[User] And it's always kind of confusing when you don't share the same last name because people just don't know how you're connected. I would say one of the good things is that Greg Bradsher, my husband, and I have never actually worked too closely together. And I think that's probably a good thing.

[Assistant] And did you meet him here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's another aspect for me, and that's I met my husband at the National Archives.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that because you're one of the many Archives couples!

[User] And it's always kind of confusing when you don't share the same last name because people just don't know how you're connected. I would say one of the good things is that Greg Bradsher, my husband, and I have never actually worked too closely together. And I think that's probably a good thing.

[Assistant] And did you meet him here?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did that happen? Can you talk a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's always kind of confusing when you don't share the same last name because people just don't know how you're connected. I would say one of the good things is that Greg Bradsher, my husband, and I have never actually worked too closely together. And I think that's probably a good thing.

[Assistant] And did you meet him here?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did that happen? Can you talk a little bit about that?

[User] You know, it's hard to remember...oh, he was editing a book on managing archives. And he came and talked to Norvell Jones and me about writing a chapter on preservation and conservation. So, that was when I first knew that he existed and began to kind of interact with him a bit on that book project. So, the rest is history.

[Assistant] And you say he's not retiring?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did that happen? Can you talk a little bit about that?

[User] You know, it's hard to remember...oh, he was editing a book on managing archives. And he came and talked to Norvell Jones and me about writing a chapter on preservation and conservation. So, that was when I first knew that he existed and began to kind of interact with him a bit on that book project. So, the rest is history.

[Assistant] And you say he's not retiring?

[User] No, he doesn't have any plans to retire.

[Assistant] You talked a little bit about some challenges that you went through. What do you think your biggest success would be here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's hard to remember...oh, he was editing a book on managing archives. And he came and talked to Norvell Jones and me about writing a chapter on preservation and conservation. So, that was when I first knew that he existed and began to kind of interact with him a bit on that book project. So, the rest is history.

[Assistant] And you say he's not retiring?

[User] No, he doesn't have any plans to retire.

[Assistant] You talked a little bit about some challenges that you went through. What do you think your biggest success would be here?

[User] Oh, gosh. I would say kind of a capstone in terms of my career is the ability to work on the Charters project. I mean, that's pretty amazing. Not that many conservators get to work on such fabulous documents. And the team of people that worked on that. I mean, I learned a lot. I was given a lot of trust, and that's always a pleasure to do so.

[Assistant] And do you think that you will have a career post Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he doesn't have any plans to retire.

[Assistant] You talked a little bit about some challenges that you went through. What do you think your biggest success would be here?

[User] Oh, gosh. I would say kind of a capstone in terms of my career is the ability to work on the Charters project. I mean, that's pretty amazing. Not that many conservators get to work on such fabulous documents. And the team of people that worked on that. I mean, I learned a lot. I was given a lot of trust, and that's always a pleasure to do so.

[Assistant] And do you think that you will have a career post Archives?

[User] I have so many things I'm interested in. I do a lot of dog rescue work and we have three dogs at home, so that could expand. That's one thing. I love to write. I like writing. And so I've got some projects that I might start to think about a little bit. There's always the possibility that I could do some private conservation work, but for a little while I want to just kind of figure things out and lie low and see what happens next.

[Assistant] OK, you did mention that you worked for the SAA. I just want to ask a little bit about your relationship with SAA and your work with them. Did you continue to work with them after you joined the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh. I would say kind of a capstone in terms of my career is the ability to work on the Charters project. I mean, that's pretty amazing. Not that many conservators get to work on such fabulous documents. And the team of people that worked on that. I mean, I learned a lot. I was given a lot of trust, and that's always a pleasure to do so.

[Assistant] And do you think that you will have a career post Archives?

[User] I have so many things I'm interested in. I do a lot of dog rescue work and we have three dogs at home, so that could expand. That's one thing. I love to write. I like writing. And so I've got some projects that I might start to think about a little bit. There's always the possibility that I could do some private conservation work, but for a little while I want to just kind of figure things out and lie low and see what happens next.

[Assistant] OK, you did mention that you worked for the SAA. I just want to ask a little bit about your relationship with SAA and your work with them. Did you continue to work with them after you joined the National Archives?

[User] Yeah, well, when I came to the Archives, I had completed my tenure as director of two NEH funded projects, and each of those had a book as part of the product that was completed. So, since I came to the Archives and I had authored those publications, I was given permission on my own time to do the revisions. So, the conservation book has gone through three and the managing photo collections has gone through a couple of revisions. So, at this point those projects are done. And I don't think that I will continue doing anything for SAA. But that was nice, too.

[Assistant] And can you talk a little bit about the publications that you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have so many things I'm interested in. I do a lot of dog rescue work and we have three dogs at home, so that could expand. That's one thing. I love to write. I like writing. And so I've got some projects that I might start to think about a little bit. There's always the possibility that I could do some private conservation work, but for a little while I want to just kind of figure things out and lie low and see what happens next.

[Assistant] OK, you did mention that you worked for the SAA. I just want to ask a little bit about your relationship with SAA and your work with them. Did you continue to work with them after you joined the National Archives?

[User] Yeah, well, when I came to the Archives, I had completed my tenure as director of two NEH funded projects, and each of those had a book as part of the product that was completed. So, since I came to the Archives and I had authored those publications, I was given permission on my own time to do the revisions. So, the conservation book has gone through three and the managing photo collections has gone through a couple of revisions. So, at this point those projects are done. And I don't think that I will continue doing anything for SAA. But that was nice, too.

[Assistant] And can you talk a little bit about the publications that you have?

[User] The two books are probably the biggest things. One is Preserving Archives and Manuscripts, I’m muddling up the titles. You have my resume.

[Assistant] I do. Do you want to consult it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, when I came to the Archives, I had completed my tenure as director of two NEH funded projects, and each of those had a book as part of the product that was completed. So, since I came to the Archives and I had authored those publications, I was given permission on my own time to do the revisions. So, the conservation book has gone through three and the managing photo collections has gone through a couple of revisions. So, at this point those projects are done. And I don't think that I will continue doing anything for SAA. But that was nice, too.

[Assistant] And can you talk a little bit about the publications that you have?

[User] The two books are probably the biggest things. One is Preserving Archives and Manuscripts, I’m muddling up the titles. You have my resume.

[Assistant] I do. Do you want to consult it?

[User] What does it say? All these names kind of run together?

[Assistant] Yeah, I can imagine. Preserving archives and Manuscripts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The two books are probably the biggest things. One is Preserving Archives and Manuscripts, I’m muddling up the titles. You have my resume.

[Assistant] I do. Do you want to consult it?

[User] What does it say? All these names kind of run together?

[Assistant] Yeah, I can imagine. Preserving archives and Manuscripts.

[User] Yes, that was the first book, the first NEH project, and I was the solo author for that. And that was revised in 1993, I think. And then in 2006? Maybe 2010? Something like that. Yeah. And then the photo book, the first set of co-authors that I worked with Gerry Munoff and Margery Long, and then it was basically redone with Diane Vogt-o'connor and some other authors.

[Assistant] And were you able to work on those publications alongside your official duties at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What does it say? All these names kind of run together?

[Assistant] Yeah, I can imagine. Preserving archives and Manuscripts.

[User] Yes, that was the first book, the first NEH project, and I was the solo author for that. And that was revised in 1993, I think. And then in 2006? Maybe 2010? Something like that. Yeah. And then the photo book, the first set of co-authors that I worked with Gerry Munoff and Margery Long, and then it was basically redone with Diane Vogt-o'connor and some other authors.

[Assistant] And were you able to work on those publications alongside your official duties at the Archives?

[User] No, I did them as a separate project. So, I had to go through the process of getting permission to do that outside work. And I don't know how I did it because it was crazy. You know, tight deadlines and a busy job. So, it was hard.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you don't work on the bench any longer. Do you miss handling documents?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was the first book, the first NEH project, and I was the solo author for that. And that was revised in 1993, I think. And then in 2006? Maybe 2010? Something like that. Yeah. And then the photo book, the first set of co-authors that I worked with Gerry Munoff and Margery Long, and then it was basically redone with Diane Vogt-o'connor and some other authors.

[Assistant] And were you able to work on those publications alongside your official duties at the Archives?

[User] No, I did them as a separate project. So, I had to go through the process of getting permission to do that outside work. And I don't know how I did it because it was crazy. You know, tight deadlines and a busy job. So, it was hard.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you don't work on the bench any longer. Do you miss handling documents?

[User] I do. But, you know, I'm still involved in discussing approaches and projects. And we're doing a lot to continue to support exhibition programs and loans, and also the great expansion of digitization initiatives. So, we're always thinking about new ways of doing things in ways that are efficient and fit for purpose, and are good for the records. So there's a lot of collaboration that covers those kinds of topics.

[Assistant] As you know, the digitization effort is part of the strategic plan. A big focus for us. Do you think that Conservation is going to have a bigger role in having to digitize everything? How do you see Conservation's role in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were you untouched during the various reorganizations that came with every Archivist, or were you basically thrown into a different unit? I know I'm asking you to reach very far back into your memory, since 1985. But can you talk a little bit about how things have changed with regard to the various transformations you've been through?

[User] You know, the lab pretty much stayed the same. I mean, I think our reporting maybe changed over the years, but we were always part of—at least while I was here—part of what was a major holdings unit, NN, NW, R, so as the archival side of those offices changed, I think our relationships probably changed a little bit with the archival units in terms of what they were part of and, you know, who they were evolving with. So, I don't know that they ultimately had that big of a change or impact on us other than there are big, big shifts in terms of different times when overall priorities are altered for everybody and that affects what you're doing. So, I would say getting ready for the move was probably one of the big, big changes. We essentially stopped doing treatment for a couple of years to prepare records. Probably another big game changer is the emphasis on digitization and the fact that that's a really big driver and just juggling resources, making sure that you can meet those goals, get things to the camera in the timetable that they need. Meet exhibit and loan goals, meet the needs of people who come on site to work in the research rooms, and support processing. So, there are a lot of streams to work with.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the Conservation staff has grown over the years that you've been here. Do you feel like the staff is adequately staffed now or do you think that we can devote more resources?

[User] I think given the size of our holdings and some of the goals, there certainly could be more staff. We have been getting a lot of support in the last few years, so that's really great. We have two new conservators coming on in the summer. Actually, next week is the first one.

[Assistant] Just in time!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think given the size of our holdings and some of the goals, there certainly could be more staff. We have been getting a lot of support in the last few years, so that's really great. We have two new conservators coming on in the summer. Actually, next week is the first one.

[Assistant] Just in time!

[User] Really! But, you know, there's always more that could be done. And we get pulled in a lot of other directions in terms of doing training, and tons and tons of tours, and things that make the Archives show well, which we want to do. But, you know, they are a drain from people working at the bench and working with records. We also do a lot of custom housing for units across NARA. So, dealing with archival stuff all over what they're boxing needs are and shipping out boxes, box blanks that are made.

[Assistant] Well, I know you want to catch the shuttle, so I'm just going to ask if there's anything you want to add before we wrap up?

[User] I think it's really fabulous that you're doing this oral history project. And I hope that you get a lot of my buddies that have really also played key roles in the work that the Archives has done over the years. There's no other place like it. It's pretty amazing. When I first came to the Archives my mom was so excited. So, that's kind of a nice little link to my past.

[Assistant] Well, you have lived history. You were, as we mentioned this morning, the last person to touch the Declaration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's really fabulous that you're doing this oral history project. And I hope that you get a lot of my buddies that have really also played key roles in the work that the Archives has done over the years. There's no other place like it. It's pretty amazing. When I first came to the Archives my mom was so excited. So, that's kind of a nice little link to my past.

[Assistant] Well, you have lived history. You were, as we mentioned this morning, the last person to touch the Declaration.

[User] Well, Kitty Nicholson and I, I don't know, you know, we didn't time it, but the two of us were the last two people to actually handle it. So, yeah. And before that it had been the 1940s, 1942.

[Assistant] Pretty exciting.

[User] Yes, it is an honor.

[Assistant] Probably the crowning moment. Yes, it's always impressive to be at the National Archives and be able to say, oh, I've touched a Jefferson message. Right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Kitty Nicholson and I, I don't know, you know, we didn't time it, but the two of us were the last two people to actually handle it. So, yeah. And before that it had been the 1940s, 1942.

[Assistant] Pretty exciting.

[User] Yes, it is an honor.

[Assistant] Probably the crowning moment. Yes, it's always impressive to be at the National Archives and be able to say, oh, I've touched a Jefferson message. Right?

[User] Well, you have touched some amazing things—all of the imaging that you were doing in the legislative vault. That made a really big difference. And you also have special insights into digitizing, and the time it takes and all of that.

[Assistant] I am very aware.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is an honor.

[Assistant] Probably the crowning moment. Yes, it's always impressive to be at the National Archives and be able to say, oh, I've touched a Jefferson message. Right?

[User] Well, you have touched some amazing things—all of the imaging that you were doing in the legislative vault. That made a really big difference. And you also have special insights into digitizing, and the time it takes and all of that.

[Assistant] I am very aware.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Is that going on still?

[Assistant] I believe so. I'm not there anymore so I don't really know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you have touched some amazing things—all of the imaging that you were doing in the legislative vault. That made a really big difference. And you also have special insights into digitizing, and the time it takes and all of that.

[Assistant] I am very aware.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Is that going on still?

[Assistant] I believe so. I'm not there anymore so I don't really know.

[User] Yeah, I hope so.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hope so too. I know that they are short-staffed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Is that going on still?

[Assistant] I believe so. I'm not there anymore so I don't really know.

[User] Yeah, I hope so.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hope so too. I know that they are short-staffed.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I don't know what time it is. Oh, you still have a few minutes but we can just wrap up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I hope so.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hope so too. I know that they are short-staffed.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I don't know what time it is. Oh, you still have a few minutes but we can just wrap up.

[User] OK. OK. Well, if you think of anything else that you want to ask I will be around, or you can go through Greg, and you've got my home email.

[Assistant] Yeah. Great! Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I don't know what time it is. Oh, you still have a few minutes but we can just wrap up.

[User] OK. OK. Well, if you think of anything else that you want to ask I will be around, or you can go through Greg, and you've got my home email.

[Assistant] Yeah. Great! Thank you so much.

[User] Yeah. Thank you, Jessie.

[Assistant] I can’t wait to see the piece that's coming out on Prologue about the Declaration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I was an undergraduate at Harvard studying history, but sort of creating my own major in Latin American studies. So my whole interest was surrounded in terms of getting back to Latin America, to be involved in Latin America one way or another. I'd spent two summers traveling about Latin America.

[Assistant] While you were in college?

[User] While I was in college and discovering Brazil, which for me, I was. I really had only known Mexico and Guatemala before that. And then I took a tour around Latin America, went to Brazil for three days and just loved the place and ended up spending three weeks that particular first summer I went down, of '66. Summer of '67, I arranged for an internship with a Brazilian politician who was running for president at the time. So I spent three months with him as he was traveling around on his still undeclared unofficial campaign. His name was Carlos Lacerda, and he's a very, very well-known political figure in Brazil from those years.

[Assistant] Back up to where had the initial interest in Latin America come from?

[User] Oh, good question. I had been raised as a child in Mexico in the summers. My father is an anthropologist, and so most summers from when I was about age of 10 on, we would spend in Chiapas, Mexico, in the highlands, where he was doing a long term project studying the Mayan Indians there, the Tzotzil and Tzeltal Indians. And so as a kid, I was raised essentially in between the Indian villages and then in or the main town there, San Cristobal de la Casas. So when I got to college.

[Assistant] Well, let me again. Did you learn Spanish at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] While I was in college and discovering Brazil, which for me, I was. I really had only known Mexico and Guatemala before that. And then I took a tour around Latin America, went to Brazil for three days and just loved the place and ended up spending three weeks that particular first summer I went down, of '66. Summer of '67, I arranged for an internship with a Brazilian politician who was running for president at the time. So I spent three months with him as he was traveling around on his still undeclared unofficial campaign. His name was Carlos Lacerda, and he's a very, very well-known political figure in Brazil from those years.

[Assistant] Back up to where had the initial interest in Latin America come from?

[User] Oh, good question. I had been raised as a child in Mexico in the summers. My father is an anthropologist, and so most summers from when I was about age of 10 on, we would spend in Chiapas, Mexico, in the highlands, where he was doing a long term project studying the Mayan Indians there, the Tzotzil and Tzeltal Indians. And so as a kid, I was raised essentially in between the Indian villages and then in or the main town there, San Cristobal de la Casas. So when I got to college.

[Assistant] Well, let me again. Did you learn Spanish at that point?

[User] Yeah. I started learning Spanish when I was about six. It got fairly fluent by the time I was in high school because we were spending every summer in Mexico. And then while I was at Harvard before I went down, I guess it must have been after that first summer when I discovered Brazil. I'm trying remember exactly the case. Coming back, I started taking Portuguese, so I already spoke Portuguese by the summer of '67 when I went down to work for this Carlos Lacerda, the Brazilian politician.

[Assistant] Ok. And that was just a summer internship?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, good question. I had been raised as a child in Mexico in the summers. My father is an anthropologist, and so most summers from when I was about age of 10 on, we would spend in Chiapas, Mexico, in the highlands, where he was doing a long term project studying the Mayan Indians there, the Tzotzil and Tzeltal Indians. And so as a kid, I was raised essentially in between the Indian villages and then in or the main town there, San Cristobal de la Casas. So when I got to college.

[Assistant] Well, let me again. Did you learn Spanish at that point?

[User] Yeah. I started learning Spanish when I was about six. It got fairly fluent by the time I was in high school because we were spending every summer in Mexico. And then while I was at Harvard before I went down, I guess it must have been after that first summer when I discovered Brazil. I'm trying remember exactly the case. Coming back, I started taking Portuguese, so I already spoke Portuguese by the summer of '67 when I went down to work for this Carlos Lacerda, the Brazilian politician.

[Assistant] Ok. And that was just a summer internship?

[User] Yeah, just a summer.

[Assistant] You were still an undergraduate at Harvard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I started learning Spanish when I was about six. It got fairly fluent by the time I was in high school because we were spending every summer in Mexico. And then while I was at Harvard before I went down, I guess it must have been after that first summer when I discovered Brazil. I'm trying remember exactly the case. Coming back, I started taking Portuguese, so I already spoke Portuguese by the summer of '67 when I went down to work for this Carlos Lacerda, the Brazilian politician.

[Assistant] Ok. And that was just a summer internship?

[User] Yeah, just a summer.

[Assistant] You were still an undergraduate at Harvard.

[User] Right. And then my senior year was '67-'68. A wonderful year for the annals of student unrest and for all sorts of. I did everything that everyone was supposed to do at that age.

[Assistant] Ok, where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, just a summer.

[Assistant] You were still an undergraduate at Harvard.

[User] Right. And then my senior year was '67-'68. A wonderful year for the annals of student unrest and for all sorts of. I did everything that everyone was supposed to do at that age.

[Assistant] Ok, where had you grown up?

[User] My parents, as I say in the winters, would be in in the Boston area. My parents at that point lived, we had a home in Weston, Massachusetts, which is about 12 miles outside of Boston. And in summers in between southern Mexico and New Mexico, where my father is from. We have a family ranch, so we would spend time on the family ranch every summer as well.

[Assistant] Any particular recollection starting in '61 and going forward of Kennedy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And then my senior year was '67-'68. A wonderful year for the annals of student unrest and for all sorts of. I did everything that everyone was supposed to do at that age.

[Assistant] Ok, where had you grown up?

[User] My parents, as I say in the winters, would be in in the Boston area. My parents at that point lived, we had a home in Weston, Massachusetts, which is about 12 miles outside of Boston. And in summers in between southern Mexico and New Mexico, where my father is from. We have a family ranch, so we would spend time on the family ranch every summer as well.

[Assistant] Any particular recollection starting in '61 and going forward of Kennedy?

[User] Oh, certainly. I mean, we were from his state. And clearly he was an actor in our lives, perhaps a different way that than from people in other states.

[Assistant] How old were you when the Peace Corps first started, '61?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My parents, as I say in the winters, would be in in the Boston area. My parents at that point lived, we had a home in Weston, Massachusetts, which is about 12 miles outside of Boston. And in summers in between southern Mexico and New Mexico, where my father is from. We have a family ranch, so we would spend time on the family ranch every summer as well.

[Assistant] Any particular recollection starting in '61 and going forward of Kennedy?

[User] Oh, certainly. I mean, we were from his state. And clearly he was an actor in our lives, perhaps a different way that than from people in other states.

[Assistant] How old were you when the Peace Corps first started, '61?

[User] In '61, I would have been fifteen.

[Assistant] At what point did you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In '61, I would have been fifteen.

[Assistant] At what point did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] I think I really became aware of it when the headmaster at my prep school.

[Assistant] Who was?

[User] Who was Bill Saltonstall, announced. It must have been my junior year, which would have been '62-'63 in high school, that he was leaving his whole career teaching at Exeter and being the headmaster. And he and his wife were going to Nigeria to be country director. So it really, you know, clearly we paid more attention to it. I paid more attention to it then. My decision process regarding Peace Corps had relatively little to do, I think, with any sense of public service and much more was sort of there were two parts to this. Three, actually. First is I really wanted to get back to Brazil. I'd essentially fallen in love with the people in the country by my senior year in college. Secondly, I knew I had to do something that would keep me somewhat insulated from the draft. And in any case, although there was no deferment for Peace Corps, it was something that was certainly a public service. And, you know, I figured I'd rather do that than hang around and go to graduate school and get drafted.

[Assistant] It went board by board.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I really became aware of it when the headmaster at my prep school.

[Assistant] Who was?

[User] Who was Bill Saltonstall, announced. It must have been my junior year, which would have been '62-'63 in high school, that he was leaving his whole career teaching at Exeter and being the headmaster. And he and his wife were going to Nigeria to be country director. So it really, you know, clearly we paid more attention to it. I paid more attention to it then. My decision process regarding Peace Corps had relatively little to do, I think, with any sense of public service and much more was sort of there were two parts to this. Three, actually. First is I really wanted to get back to Brazil. I'd essentially fallen in love with the people in the country by my senior year in college. Secondly, I knew I had to do something that would keep me somewhat insulated from the draft. And in any case, although there was no deferment for Peace Corps, it was something that was certainly a public service. And, you know, I figured I'd rather do that than hang around and go to graduate school and get drafted.

[Assistant] It went board by board.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] If they offered. It was in a sense a deferment, but it wasn't automatic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. But I'm trying to remember what the number were there. There are about 10, 10 or 12 of us, maybe 10 of us. We were all Harvard undergraduates, with the exception of one spouse who was graduating from Tufts. And she and her husband, her husband was a Harvard undergraduate. They had gotten married either that spring or just before they got on the plane to go down to Brazil.

[Assistant] So this was going to be the first unit of the Harvard Peace Corps commandos.

[User] It may have been, I believe it was first. I don't know if it was ever duplicated. But it'd be interesting to know if there was a strategy at that time to try to see if they could cherry pick in this way and work this way.

[Assistant] So when did you complete your degree?

[User] June of 1968. And I believe we left, I probably got on a plane a week later and we all met at Boston airport, essentially, and flew all flew down to Rio.

[Assistant] Now, the whatever training you were going to get had already occurred, and it was primarily language and area studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It may have been, I believe it was first. I don't know if it was ever duplicated. But it'd be interesting to know if there was a strategy at that time to try to see if they could cherry pick in this way and work this way.

[Assistant] So when did you complete your degree?

[User] June of 1968. And I believe we left, I probably got on a plane a week later and we all met at Boston airport, essentially, and flew all flew down to Rio.

[Assistant] Now, the whatever training you were going to get had already occurred, and it was primarily language and area studies.

[User] No, this was sort of a taking advantage of the fact that we were all together, I think. And they wouldn't have to pay for the training or they wouldn't have to. How was the training during that time? We did, in fact, have another, I'm going to say, perhaps eight weeks of training in country, which is interesting because I think this is one of the first in-country training groups as well.

[Assistant] Let's stay on the period while you were still at Harvard. You must have had to fill out the application and do the recommendations. And was there any kind of selection process screening by psychologists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, this was sort of a taking advantage of the fact that we were all together, I think. And they wouldn't have to pay for the training or they wouldn't have to. How was the training during that time? We did, in fact, have another, I'm going to say, perhaps eight weeks of training in country, which is interesting because I think this is one of the first in-country training groups as well.

[Assistant] Let's stay on the period while you were still at Harvard. You must have had to fill out the application and do the recommendations. And was there any kind of selection process screening by psychologists?

[User] Yes. And I know there was some vetting as well.

[Assistant] Background checks.

[User] A background check. My roommates were, and I don't know how much was tongue-in-cheek. They kept on saying these guys in suits with black shoes and white socks that kept on lurking around our entry, asking people about did this guy vote and whether he, you know, smoked dope or whether he was a, you know, you know, did good things or bad things or all this sort of stuff.

[Assistant] Were any of the group, that you know, publicly known political activists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I know there was some vetting as well.

[Assistant] Background checks.

[User] A background check. My roommates were, and I don't know how much was tongue-in-cheek. They kept on saying these guys in suits with black shoes and white socks that kept on lurking around our entry, asking people about did this guy vote and whether he, you know, smoked dope or whether he was a, you know, you know, did good things or bad things or all this sort of stuff.

[Assistant] Were any of the group, that you know, publicly known political activists?

[User] No. None of us, I think we were all anti-war. Stridently anti-war, but not in the sense of being great actors. I know I certainly turned in my bursar's card and sympathy to one particular event on campus. And I think because I was at one of the protests, I was actually on some form of probation during my senior year for a month or so.

[Assistant] But that was no bar to your going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A background check. My roommates were, and I don't know how much was tongue-in-cheek. They kept on saying these guys in suits with black shoes and white socks that kept on lurking around our entry, asking people about did this guy vote and whether he, you know, smoked dope or whether he was a, you know, you know, did good things or bad things or all this sort of stuff.

[Assistant] Were any of the group, that you know, publicly known political activists?

[User] No. None of us, I think we were all anti-war. Stridently anti-war, but not in the sense of being great actors. I know I certainly turned in my bursar's card and sympathy to one particular event on campus. And I think because I was at one of the protests, I was actually on some form of probation during my senior year for a month or so.

[Assistant] But that was no bar to your going.

[User] No, no, it was. It was one where I sort of volunteered myself for probation rather than. It wasn't really. It was the fact that I had turned in my bursar's, my identification card, and announced that I'd been at this protest that that put me on a list rather than anything else.

[Assistant] How would you characterize the others in the group with motivation? Background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. None of us, I think we were all anti-war. Stridently anti-war, but not in the sense of being great actors. I know I certainly turned in my bursar's card and sympathy to one particular event on campus. And I think because I was at one of the protests, I was actually on some form of probation during my senior year for a month or so.

[Assistant] But that was no bar to your going.

[User] No, no, it was. It was one where I sort of volunteered myself for probation rather than. It wasn't really. It was the fact that I had turned in my bursar's, my identification card, and announced that I'd been at this protest that that put me on a list rather than anything else.

[Assistant] How would you characterize the others in the group with motivation? Background?

[User] I think most of us had a very similar motivation from the standpoint of trying to do something to insulate ourselves from the draft. A couple of, there were two couples that I remember and both the guys in the couples. Actually those marriages didn't last much longer, much beyond Peace Corps is my memory. But anyway, those guys were both very interested in rural development and agricultural development. And certainly, I believe I'm right in saying that one of the couples, one of the guys, Frank Hansen, I believe, did in fact move back and have a farm and, you know, essentially be a real working farmer and a schoolteacher. And the other person, I believe, got advanced degrees in forestry development or something of that nature and I believe is still active in Latin American resource questions.

[Assistant] Going in, was there a sense that this would be, even though you may not have defined a career goal, that this would help in your lifetime career, whatever that would be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it was. It was one where I sort of volunteered myself for probation rather than. It wasn't really. It was the fact that I had turned in my bursar's, my identification card, and announced that I'd been at this protest that that put me on a list rather than anything else.

[Assistant] How would you characterize the others in the group with motivation? Background?

[User] I think most of us had a very similar motivation from the standpoint of trying to do something to insulate ourselves from the draft. A couple of, there were two couples that I remember and both the guys in the couples. Actually those marriages didn't last much longer, much beyond Peace Corps is my memory. But anyway, those guys were both very interested in rural development and agricultural development. And certainly, I believe I'm right in saying that one of the couples, one of the guys, Frank Hansen, I believe, did in fact move back and have a farm and, you know, essentially be a real working farmer and a schoolteacher. And the other person, I believe, got advanced degrees in forestry development or something of that nature and I believe is still active in Latin American resource questions.

[Assistant] Going in, was there a sense that this would be, even though you may not have defined a career goal, that this would help in your lifetime career, whatever that would be?

[User] I was completely pushed by any question of that. Turns out it ended up being a wonderful preparation for me. It gave me the language and cultural skills. And actually, Peace Corps, interestingly enough, really gave me an appreciation for developmental economics in the sense of that things, things can progress. And I was lucky to be in a program where we were bringing electricity to the farms and we could rapidly see the difference there.

[Assistant] How would you compare the language skills of the others in the group to your own? I assume you were pretty well, pretty fluent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think most of us had a very similar motivation from the standpoint of trying to do something to insulate ourselves from the draft. A couple of, there were two couples that I remember and both the guys in the couples. Actually those marriages didn't last much longer, much beyond Peace Corps is my memory. But anyway, those guys were both very interested in rural development and agricultural development. And certainly, I believe I'm right in saying that one of the couples, one of the guys, Frank Hansen, I believe, did in fact move back and have a farm and, you know, essentially be a real working farmer and a schoolteacher. And the other person, I believe, got advanced degrees in forestry development or something of that nature and I believe is still active in Latin American resource questions.

[Assistant] Going in, was there a sense that this would be, even though you may not have defined a career goal, that this would help in your lifetime career, whatever that would be?

[User] I was completely pushed by any question of that. Turns out it ended up being a wonderful preparation for me. It gave me the language and cultural skills. And actually, Peace Corps, interestingly enough, really gave me an appreciation for developmental economics in the sense of that things, things can progress. And I was lucky to be in a program where we were bringing electricity to the farms and we could rapidly see the difference there.

[Assistant] How would you compare the language skills of the others in the group to your own? I assume you were pretty well, pretty fluent.

[User] Yeah, I remember. When we flew down to Brazil, went to spend a couple of days in Rio, and I guess we were probably a sort of a special group because I know we were sort of feted by the ambassador for a day or so.

[Assistant] You remember who the ambassador was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was completely pushed by any question of that. Turns out it ended up being a wonderful preparation for me. It gave me the language and cultural skills. And actually, Peace Corps, interestingly enough, really gave me an appreciation for developmental economics in the sense of that things, things can progress. And I was lucky to be in a program where we were bringing electricity to the farms and we could rapidly see the difference there.

[Assistant] How would you compare the language skills of the others in the group to your own? I assume you were pretty well, pretty fluent.

[User] Yeah, I remember. When we flew down to Brazil, went to spend a couple of days in Rio, and I guess we were probably a sort of a special group because I know we were sort of feted by the ambassador for a day or so.

[Assistant] You remember who the ambassador was?

[User] I should because I dated his daughter the year before, but it may come back. I just don't remember. I do remember that was a difficult time politically in Brazil. It was.

[Assistant] Can you characterize it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I remember. When we flew down to Brazil, went to spend a couple of days in Rio, and I guess we were probably a sort of a special group because I know we were sort of feted by the ambassador for a day or so.

[Assistant] You remember who the ambassador was?

[User] I should because I dated his daughter the year before, but it may come back. I just don't remember. I do remember that was a difficult time politically in Brazil. It was.

[Assistant] Can you characterize it?

[User] Sure. In 1964, there was a counterrevolution of the military, essentially throwing out a central leftist president, and the military had been begun beginning to figure out how to govern. And there was a lot of student protests and a lot of, more student protests than worker protests of any sort, that was going on, a lot of activity. Some peasant leftist groups up in the area that I was being sent in the Northeast were very active also. So it was one of these interesting combinations where you had student and some peasant revolt. And at the same time, a military government and anti-American sentiment all throughout. So in fact, I believe it was. It may have been that week that we arrived in. I'm getting things mixed up. I do know at one point there was an office, a Peace Corps office in Rio that had a bomb that went off and subsequently years later, in fact, I did, four or five years later, I did go to a, um, Peace Corps party in Rio, and I met one of the workers who, in fact, had lost his arm in that particular explosion.

[Assistant] Do you remember who had developed the program and who was staff at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I should because I dated his daughter the year before, but it may come back. I just don't remember. I do remember that was a difficult time politically in Brazil. It was.

[Assistant] Can you characterize it?

[User] Sure. In 1964, there was a counterrevolution of the military, essentially throwing out a central leftist president, and the military had been begun beginning to figure out how to govern. And there was a lot of student protests and a lot of, more student protests than worker protests of any sort, that was going on, a lot of activity. Some peasant leftist groups up in the area that I was being sent in the Northeast were very active also. So it was one of these interesting combinations where you had student and some peasant revolt. And at the same time, a military government and anti-American sentiment all throughout. So in fact, I believe it was. It may have been that week that we arrived in. I'm getting things mixed up. I do know at one point there was an office, a Peace Corps office in Rio that had a bomb that went off and subsequently years later, in fact, I did, four or five years later, I did go to a, um, Peace Corps party in Rio, and I met one of the workers who, in fact, had lost his arm in that particular explosion.

[Assistant] Do you remember who had developed the program and who was staff at that point?

[User] I don't know who the real architects, who really developed the program in terms of bringing these this group of students down, keeping us together, training us partially during the spring. We had an intense eight-week session in Recife in the northeast of Brazil. I don't know who it was. I remember some of the names of the people we dealt with once we got in country.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, I'm curious as to the when you got to Recife, to whom did you relate? Was it a Brazilian official or was an American official or one of each?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were American officials who were in charge of the training. And I think there was two or three Brazilian women who were the language teachers, and at least I remember one of them was in fact married to the head of our program, the head of our training program. His name was, was Jim LaFleur. And I can't remember. He had a very bright and attractive wife who did most of the language training. She, in fact, had been the personal assistant to a to don elder comida, who was the cardinal for Northeast Brazil and was sort of a controversial figure.

[Assistant] Now with these three AID people?

[User] No, this LaFleur was a former Peace Corps volunteer who was either on staff of Peace Corps because I believe it was in-house Peace Corps training. I don't believe it was one of these where they had farmed out the training yet to third party company. So I believe he was in charge of the training program. And there were maybe, I think, four language teachers. There was Jim LaFleur. And then Recife was really a very large center for Peace Corps activity. It had an office that covered the whole northeast of Brazil, which was maybe eight or 10 states. And so it had a superstructure of it, had a program officer for the Northeast. It had a head of the Pernambuco program, which was the state Recife was in, and it had the head of the whole Northeast region. I'm guessing there were probably eight to 10 staff people in that office.

[Assistant] All Americans?

[User] Yes, at that point, all Americans, there was some support staff of that eight or nine, there are probably three support staff secretaries, et cetera, who were who were, and maybe a driver, who were Brazilian.

[Assistant] So what did you do during the 10 weeks or eight weeks of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, this LaFleur was a former Peace Corps volunteer who was either on staff of Peace Corps because I believe it was in-house Peace Corps training. I don't believe it was one of these where they had farmed out the training yet to third party company. So I believe he was in charge of the training program. And there were maybe, I think, four language teachers. There was Jim LaFleur. And then Recife was really a very large center for Peace Corps activity. It had an office that covered the whole northeast of Brazil, which was maybe eight or 10 states. And so it had a superstructure of it, had a program officer for the Northeast. It had a head of the Pernambuco program, which was the state Recife was in, and it had the head of the whole Northeast region. I'm guessing there were probably eight to 10 staff people in that office.

[Assistant] All Americans?

[User] Yes, at that point, all Americans, there was some support staff of that eight or nine, there are probably three support staff secretaries, et cetera, who were who were, and maybe a driver, who were Brazilian.

[Assistant] So what did you do during the 10 weeks or eight weeks of training?

[User] It was pretty. It was one of these, you know, you remember what it was when you're trying to really work on a language, it's absolutely tiring. You just so. The language is paramount. Language was paramount. We on a couple of occasions, we were sort of given weekend field trips where we would go off with other volunteers and just see what their life was like. So we'd probably go out for to spend all day Friday and Saturday with them, was my memory, because I remember being part of the deal was working with them out there at their projects.

[Assistant] And were they doing what ultimately you were expected to do or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, at that point, all Americans, there was some support staff of that eight or nine, there are probably three support staff secretaries, et cetera, who were who were, and maybe a driver, who were Brazilian.

[Assistant] So what did you do during the 10 weeks or eight weeks of training?

[User] It was pretty. It was one of these, you know, you remember what it was when you're trying to really work on a language, it's absolutely tiring. You just so. The language is paramount. Language was paramount. We on a couple of occasions, we were sort of given weekend field trips where we would go off with other volunteers and just see what their life was like. So we'd probably go out for to spend all day Friday and Saturday with them, was my memory, because I remember being part of the deal was working with them out there at their projects.

[Assistant] And were they doing what ultimately you were expected to do or?

[User] Sort of. The particular group that I remember being associated with during training was an interesting group. Most of them were either MBA students or MBA graduates or lawyers or people sort of somewhere in the legal process. And it was a group that was designed to develop co- op agricultural cooperatives in mainly in the sugar cane growing area and in the other agricultural areas within one hundred or two hundred miles of Recife. So they tended to be volunteers, most of them male, with one step above of training than the rest of us. I mean, they really, the business people, knew a little bit about business, much more than us liberal arts graduates, and the legal types clearly had a different viewpoint and had training in the legal structures, et cetera.

[Assistant] Were they working for a Brazilian ministry or agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was pretty. It was one of these, you know, you remember what it was when you're trying to really work on a language, it's absolutely tiring. You just so. The language is paramount. Language was paramount. We on a couple of occasions, we were sort of given weekend field trips where we would go off with other volunteers and just see what their life was like. So we'd probably go out for to spend all day Friday and Saturday with them, was my memory, because I remember being part of the deal was working with them out there at their projects.

[Assistant] And were they doing what ultimately you were expected to do or?

[User] Sort of. The particular group that I remember being associated with during training was an interesting group. Most of them were either MBA students or MBA graduates or lawyers or people sort of somewhere in the legal process. And it was a group that was designed to develop co- op agricultural cooperatives in mainly in the sugar cane growing area and in the other agricultural areas within one hundred or two hundred miles of Recife. So they tended to be volunteers, most of them male, with one step above of training than the rest of us. I mean, they really, the business people, knew a little bit about business, much more than us liberal arts graduates, and the legal types clearly had a different viewpoint and had training in the legal structures, et cetera.

[Assistant] Were they working for a Brazilian ministry or agency?

[User] Yeah. What I'm going to guess that it was probably a state secretariat of agriculture and the cooperative program that was within that.

[Assistant] Did you have this thinking back in your program and the other did it operate autonomously? I mean, sometimes, you know, with. One criticism of aid programs is they come in with their own package and they get validated by a ministry, but they don't really.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sort of. The particular group that I remember being associated with during training was an interesting group. Most of them were either MBA students or MBA graduates or lawyers or people sort of somewhere in the legal process. And it was a group that was designed to develop co- op agricultural cooperatives in mainly in the sugar cane growing area and in the other agricultural areas within one hundred or two hundred miles of Recife. So they tended to be volunteers, most of them male, with one step above of training than the rest of us. I mean, they really, the business people, knew a little bit about business, much more than us liberal arts graduates, and the legal types clearly had a different viewpoint and had training in the legal structures, et cetera.

[Assistant] Were they working for a Brazilian ministry or agency?

[User] Yeah. What I'm going to guess that it was probably a state secretariat of agriculture and the cooperative program that was within that.

[Assistant] Did you have this thinking back in your program and the other did it operate autonomously? I mean, sometimes, you know, with. One criticism of aid programs is they come in with their own package and they get validated by a ministry, but they don't really.

[User] This cooperative program, it would be interesting. I mean, there are there are people who can talk more about it. I never really knew how to measure it, never know what they do. But from the outside, it seemed to me that these volunteers had a relatively clear mission and objectives, and they seemed to have pretty good support from their government counterparts. Oh yes.

[Assistant] You're concentrating on language eight weeks. But where we are staying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This cooperative program, it would be interesting. I mean, there are there are people who can talk more about it. I never really knew how to measure it, never know what they do. But from the outside, it seemed to me that these volunteers had a relatively clear mission and objectives, and they seemed to have pretty good support from their government counterparts. Oh yes.

[Assistant] You're concentrating on language eight weeks. But where we are staying?

[User] They had us staying in a little sort of residence hotel, which was, you know, like most Peace Corps hotels around the world, I suppose, you know, bathroom down the hall. Clean, nothing sumptuous. It was fine. You know, we'd have a few nights, maybe in the weekends we'd get to go out and have dinner and carouse together a little bit. But it was we were fairly, you know, we did a bunch of study and we were fairly dedicated trainees. I think of that because in fact, I believe there was the possibility of being, as they used to say, deselected.

[Assistant] Still?

[User] Still. We were still sort of on probation from that sense.

[Assistant] And what would it be, LaFleur who would call the shots?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had us staying in a little sort of residence hotel, which was, you know, like most Peace Corps hotels around the world, I suppose, you know, bathroom down the hall. Clean, nothing sumptuous. It was fine. You know, we'd have a few nights, maybe in the weekends we'd get to go out and have dinner and carouse together a little bit. But it was we were fairly, you know, we did a bunch of study and we were fairly dedicated trainees. I think of that because in fact, I believe there was the possibility of being, as they used to say, deselected.

[Assistant] Still?

[User] Still. We were still sort of on probation from that sense.

[Assistant] And what would it be, LaFleur who would call the shots?

[User] Probably, probably. Yeah, he would certainly be the main filter there.

[Assistant] During the eight weeks, did you begin to get a definition of what it is your job would be as you went out in the field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still. We were still sort of on probation from that sense.

[Assistant] And what would it be, LaFleur who would call the shots?

[User] Probably, probably. Yeah, he would certainly be the main filter there.

[Assistant] During the eight weeks, did you begin to get a definition of what it is your job would be as you went out in the field?

[User] I knew that it was highly likely from very early on that I'd be going up to the next state north named Paraiba, and it would be doing something in rural development.

[Assistant] How did you know that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably, probably. Yeah, he would certainly be the main filter there.

[Assistant] During the eight weeks, did you begin to get a definition of what it is your job would be as you went out in the field?

[User] I knew that it was highly likely from very early on that I'd be going up to the next state north named Paraiba, and it would be doing something in rural development.

[Assistant] How did you know that?

[User] Well, I think I've been told this is what we think you're going to be doing. And in fact, that's in those days. It was interesting. What they started working on actually was almost questions of succession when you think about it. Many of the volunteers who had arrived in '66, which was probably the, you know, essentially the equivalent of the third or so program in many of those areas, had really take their programs had taken root and they knew what they were doing and they needed successors. And so there was as though it was a little fiefdom that you passed along. I was designated to go out to Hank and Marilyn Atha's town, which was a town called Sao Bento, about four hundred kilometers from the capital of the state of Paraiba. And I think a lot of these assignments were, in some in retrospect, unfair in the sense that. We spent most of our time in defining what we're doing, floundering.

[Assistant] This is after you're out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they told me, well, you know, go up to João Pessoa, the capital of Paraiba, the next state up. Meet the people in the office there and they'll put you on a bus to Sao Bento. And that's essentially what they did. Or actually, it's possible that I actually met this couple in in either Recife or João Pessoa. They took me out with them and I had a stay of about, I'm going to say, two weeks overlapping with them at this point.

[Assistant] Did you move into the house that they had?

[User] And I did, in fact move into their house, took it over from them and it was, you know, a nice, easy transition from that point of view.

[Assistant] Peace Corps was paying all the allowances and all the rents and everything, you didn't do it?

[User] It all came out of what they gave me.

[Assistant] It was a lump sum.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I did, in fact move into their house, took it over from them and it was, you know, a nice, easy transition from that point of view.

[Assistant] Peace Corps was paying all the allowances and all the rents and everything, you didn't do it?

[User] It all came out of what they gave me.

[Assistant] It was a lump sum.

[User] Yeah, lump sum. My memory is they paid us in those days, maybe a little bit over a hundred bucks a month. And to get that, in fact, I had to designate a bank where it would be sent and that was actually sort of nice. It meant every month I had to figure out how to get to this town about 50 kilometers away that I wouldn't have gotten to otherwise, where there are other volunteers as well. And some of them, some of my fellows from this group were there.

[Assistant] So what'd you do, get a basket full of money and take it back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It all came out of what they gave me.

[Assistant] It was a lump sum.

[User] Yeah, lump sum. My memory is they paid us in those days, maybe a little bit over a hundred bucks a month. And to get that, in fact, I had to designate a bank where it would be sent and that was actually sort of nice. It meant every month I had to figure out how to get to this town about 50 kilometers away that I wouldn't have gotten to otherwise, where there are other volunteers as well. And some of them, some of my fellows from this group were there.

[Assistant] So what'd you do, get a basket full of money and take it back?

[User] Oh, absolutely. You'd cash it. You'd come back with your hundred dollars worth of local currency and you just actually sometimes, you know, depending where I was, sometimes I'd leave it with the. Clearly very early on as a bachelor, I was not about to do my own cooking on a wholesale scale, so I figured out, well, unless I'm not going to starve. And so I made a deal with a hotel where I had rights to bath and soap and towel and three meals a day.

[Assistant] Oh, that's an interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, lump sum. My memory is they paid us in those days, maybe a little bit over a hundred bucks a month. And to get that, in fact, I had to designate a bank where it would be sent and that was actually sort of nice. It meant every month I had to figure out how to get to this town about 50 kilometers away that I wouldn't have gotten to otherwise, where there are other volunteers as well. And some of them, some of my fellows from this group were there.

[Assistant] So what'd you do, get a basket full of money and take it back?

[User] Oh, absolutely. You'd cash it. You'd come back with your hundred dollars worth of local currency and you just actually sometimes, you know, depending where I was, sometimes I'd leave it with the. Clearly very early on as a bachelor, I was not about to do my own cooking on a wholesale scale, so I figured out, well, unless I'm not going to starve. And so I made a deal with a hotel where I had rights to bath and soap and towel and three meals a day.

[Assistant] Oh, that's an interesting.

[User] It's good. It sort of gave me a bit of a community too, of Brazilians, the Portuguese speaking community.

[Assistant] So you got up to the town. You're in your position. Your job has shifted not to the ag co-ops, but toward rural electricity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. You'd cash it. You'd come back with your hundred dollars worth of local currency and you just actually sometimes, you know, depending where I was, sometimes I'd leave it with the. Clearly very early on as a bachelor, I was not about to do my own cooking on a wholesale scale, so I figured out, well, unless I'm not going to starve. And so I made a deal with a hotel where I had rights to bath and soap and towel and three meals a day.

[Assistant] Oh, that's an interesting.

[User] It's good. It sort of gave me a bit of a community too, of Brazilians, the Portuguese speaking community.

[Assistant] So you got up to the town. You're in your position. Your job has shifted not to the ag co-ops, but toward rural electricity.

[User] That's right. And then I end up, as I say, a teacher, and that's really took up most of my.

[Assistant] Take me from, how did you get to being a teacher? I mean, what were the steps? You want to stop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's good. It sort of gave me a bit of a community too, of Brazilians, the Portuguese speaking community.

[Assistant] So you got up to the town. You're in your position. Your job has shifted not to the ag co-ops, but toward rural electricity.

[User] That's right. And then I end up, as I say, a teacher, and that's really took up most of my.

[Assistant] Take me from, how did you get to being a teacher? I mean, what were the steps? You want to stop?

[User] No, it's OK. I don't know exactly. I can't remember, that's a good question. How did how did it turn out that they recruited me? I think I went out of my way to go meet the people and say, hey, look, you know, I can teach English, I can teach French, I can teach history. And they said, great, we'll have you do all three. And they said, oh by the way, here's a fourth course that we need teaching, which is called, uh, what was it called? Social and political organization. Which in retrospect, about a year later, I found out that it was illegal for a non-Brazilian to be teaching that course in Brazil at the time.

[Assistant] Now what level was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And then I end up, as I say, a teacher, and that's really took up most of my.

[Assistant] Take me from, how did you get to being a teacher? I mean, what were the steps? You want to stop?

[User] No, it's OK. I don't know exactly. I can't remember, that's a good question. How did how did it turn out that they recruited me? I think I went out of my way to go meet the people and say, hey, look, you know, I can teach English, I can teach French, I can teach history. And they said, great, we'll have you do all three. And they said, oh by the way, here's a fourth course that we need teaching, which is called, uh, what was it called? Social and political organization. Which in retrospect, about a year later, I found out that it was illegal for a non-Brazilian to be teaching that course in Brazil at the time.

[Assistant] Now what level was it?

[User] This is equivalent to junior high school, so it was actually the beginning English, beginning French and, you know, history. I don't know. I mean, we had just a standard history textbook.

[Assistant] It may have been world history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's OK. I don't know exactly. I can't remember, that's a good question. How did how did it turn out that they recruited me? I think I went out of my way to go meet the people and say, hey, look, you know, I can teach English, I can teach French, I can teach history. And they said, great, we'll have you do all three. And they said, oh by the way, here's a fourth course that we need teaching, which is called, uh, what was it called? Social and political organization. Which in retrospect, about a year later, I found out that it was illegal for a non-Brazilian to be teaching that course in Brazil at the time.

[Assistant] Now what level was it?

[User] This is equivalent to junior high school, so it was actually the beginning English, beginning French and, you know, history. I don't know. I mean, we had just a standard history textbook.

[Assistant] It may have been world history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was world history.

[Assistant] And in your own mind, you were doing this as part of the process of community development, it's a way of getting to know the community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is equivalent to junior high school, so it was actually the beginning English, beginning French and, you know, history. I don't know. I mean, we had just a standard history textbook.

[Assistant] It may have been world history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was world history.

[Assistant] And in your own mind, you were doing this as part of the process of community development, it's a way of getting to know the community.

[User] In retrospect, it's sort of interesting to think about because there was clearly no obligation for me to do this.

[Assistant] Were you paid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was world history.

[Assistant] And in your own mind, you were doing this as part of the process of community development, it's a way of getting to know the community.

[User] In retrospect, it's sort of interesting to think about because there was clearly no obligation for me to do this.

[Assistant] Were you paid?

[User] They did pay me the equivalent of about 12 bucks a month. So it was it wasn't a question of needing the extra money. I mean, that paid for a beer every once in a while.

[Assistant] Yeah, but what about the rural electrification project?