[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Florida? Last I heard, he was in California at some museum or institute or something like that.

[Assistant] We haven't gotten in contact with him yet, but we are hoping to this year.

[User] NASA assigned him as—no, I don't think it was NASA. I think he did it on his own. He took a leave of absence from NASA, but he worked at the Arinau [phonetic] plant in Bremen, Germany, for, I don't know, better than a year or so. I in those days was working at ESRTC and used to travel to Bremen all the time, so Ed and I got to be very good friends. In fact, it was the 1976 [American] Bicentennial when the ambassador—I was attached always to the embassy, to the Council for Scientific and Technological Affairs, was under the umbrella of the embassy, and he was trying to promote a big deal for the Bicentennial, and he wanted to set up a NASA exhibit. So I got Ed to join in. Nobody had gotten him yet, so I got him to come over. I would introduce him every day and he would show the films from his Skylab mission. Then we had an exhibit set up. I managed to capture all kind of stuff that happened to be floating around in Europe from NASA. Even a space suit we had. We had a really nice exhibit set up there.\n\n Ed came over, and he and I would go out afterward and answer all the questions and stuff. So Ed and I got to be pretty good friends, but I lost track of him after he came back here.

[Assistant] That's one of the things we hope that through this project that we're able to do. In fact, we'll send you this, when we send you the final transcript, we send also a little note asking if it's all right to share your address with other participants of the project.

[User] Sure. That's great.

[Assistant] And we don't give it to anyone outside, but then once a year we're going to start trying to send then all of you that participated a list of each other's addresses so that you can get back in contact.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Part of Kranz's fire brigade that I always ended up on was this—you mentioned it in there, too. I forgot to mention it, the sim bay. We cleared out one bay of the service module and put all kind of scientific instruments in it. I managed to get myself involved in that from the operations side again, and again from the systems side, making sure that power was available and what kind of power each instrumented needed, and the data requirements and commands in and out, and temperature heat rejection, and all this kind of stuff. So I was part of that design team. That was absolutely incredible, what that team of people achieved in eighteen months from the time they were told to do it, they flew the first mission and allocated all that space and got everything out of there, and it worked. It worked fine.

[Assistant] So much that came together to make it all successful.

[User] Yes. I was part of that team. By then we really had a team on the ground. Man, oh, man, there was nothing we couldn't do. Nothing we couldn't do. We could have been to Mars a long time ago if they just had given us the direction to do it. We'd have been there. It's terrible that we haven't done that.

[Assistant] Hopefully we'll be able to see that without too many more years going by.

[User] I'm skeptical. I wish I could agree with you. I'd like to see it, but I'm skeptical. I don't think there's a will there. In order to achieve Space Station, everything else had to go away. There's not enough money to do more than that. I don't see where Space Station is that much of an achievement, other than to build it and assemble it. Then what are you going to do with it for thirty years?

[Assistant] Unfortunately, they're even having problems getting it built.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was part of that team. By then we really had a team on the ground. Man, oh, man, there was nothing we couldn't do. Nothing we couldn't do. We could have been to Mars a long time ago if they just had given us the direction to do it. We'd have been there. It's terrible that we haven't done that.

[Assistant] Hopefully we'll be able to see that without too many more years going by.

[User] I'm skeptical. I wish I could agree with you. I'd like to see it, but I'm skeptical. I don't think there's a will there. In order to achieve Space Station, everything else had to go away. There's not enough money to do more than that. I don't see where Space Station is that much of an achievement, other than to build it and assemble it. Then what are you going to do with it for thirty years?

[Assistant] Unfortunately, they're even having problems getting it built.

[User] Yes. I've kind of lost track of that. I need to log on to some of the NASA sites and see what that assembly sequence is. I don't even know—when is the service module scheduled to go now?

[Assistant] I think it's scheduled for July, but I think they're having some questions about whether they will be able.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm skeptical. I wish I could agree with you. I'd like to see it, but I'm skeptical. I don't think there's a will there. In order to achieve Space Station, everything else had to go away. There's not enough money to do more than that. I don't see where Space Station is that much of an achievement, other than to build it and assemble it. Then what are you going to do with it for thirty years?

[Assistant] Unfortunately, they're even having problems getting it built.

[User] Yes. I've kind of lost track of that. I need to log on to some of the NASA sites and see what that assembly sequence is. I don't even know—when is the service module scheduled to go now?

[Assistant] I think it's scheduled for July, but I think they're having some questions about whether they will be able.

[User] Jeez. July. My God, it was due a year ago. Jochen still owes me twenty gilders on that, because he was convinced it would go in September of last year. I have to remind him of that.

[Assistant] That's right. [Laughter] Well, you have certainly had a lot of interesting experiences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I've kind of lost track of that. I need to log on to some of the NASA sites and see what that assembly sequence is. I don't even know—when is the service module scheduled to go now?

[Assistant] I think it's scheduled for July, but I think they're having some questions about whether they will be able.

[User] Jeez. July. My God, it was due a year ago. Jochen still owes me twenty gilders on that, because he was convinced it would go in September of last year. I have to remind him of that.

[Assistant] That's right. [Laughter] Well, you have certainly had a lot of interesting experiences.

[User] I sure have. You know I've got cancer now. But I tell you what, I've had a heck of a life.

[Assistant] Yes, you have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jeez. July. My God, it was due a year ago. Jochen still owes me twenty gilders on that, because he was convinced it would go in September of last year. I have to remind him of that.

[Assistant] That's right. [Laughter] Well, you have certainly had a lot of interesting experiences.

[User] I sure have. You know I've got cancer now. But I tell you what, I've had a heck of a life.

[Assistant] Yes, you have.

[User] My life has been one huge adventure.

[Assistant] It certainly has been, and we thank you so much for sharing it with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure have. You know I've got cancer now. But I tell you what, I've had a heck of a life.

[Assistant] Yes, you have.

[User] My life has been one huge adventure.

[Assistant] It certainly has been, and we thank you so much for sharing it with us.

[User] I appreciate it. You get me started talking on this stuff, and I can't quit.

[Assistant] Oh, we would love to continue listening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My life has been one huge adventure.

[Assistant] It certainly has been, and we thank you so much for sharing it with us.

[User] I appreciate it. You get me started talking on this stuff, and I can't quit.

[Assistant] Oh, we would love to continue listening.

[User] When I was sending out those news bulletins, I never sold a house as a result of that, but I used to run into my neighbors around here where I sent them, say, "Hey, when are you going to send us another one? We look forward to that." [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's neat. That's really neat. People are very interested in the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I appreciate it. You get me started talking on this stuff, and I can't quit.

[Assistant] Oh, we would love to continue listening.

[User] When I was sending out those news bulletins, I never sold a house as a result of that, but I used to run into my neighbors around here where I sent them, say, "Hey, when are you going to send us another one? We look forward to that." [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's neat. That's really neat. People are very interested in the space program.

[User] I mentioned to you I was—I may still some day get involved with this Challenger Center. If they got it going, I would be involved with it now. I went in a shopping mall up here a couple of years ago and they had a storefront there, and they were selling stuff. I wondered, "What is that?" I went in there and met some of the people and talked with them and learned about it. They learned about my background and immediately wanted to suck me into their world of activity. I didn't mind doing it. I got involved with it and I got involved in some of the fund-raising. I was still in the real estate business, so I went around twisting the arms of the title companies and the lending companies to buy these tiles that will be in the entrance hall with their names on and stuff, donate money. I'd come to $100-a-plate meals that weren't very good and stuff. [Laughter]\n\n But at that time they were talking about having it going a year and a half ago, but they had severe funding problems. What they're building is very elaborate. It's probably the most elaborate one of any around. The one down in Tucson is at the Pima Air [and Space] Museum, is an old hangar that the Air Force let them have, but these guys are building a whole new building, very nice architecture, very state of the art. I like the idea of it, to work with the kids.

[Assistant] It's a great idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in the background [referring to a photograph] you can see the group I worked with at ESA, and that's the tip of the arm. You can see the robotic arm in the thermovac chamber at ESRTC. They were getting ready to run tests on it. And over here is my Skylab model. Behind the door.

[Assistant] Sure enough. Very nice. I'm sure the kids got a kick out of all that.

[User] They did. I always take stuff like these flags that have been to the surface of the Moon and stuff, and they were really impressed with all of that. It was fun, trying to inspire a little bit of interest for them. That's what I like about the Challenger Center.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] If my health allows, I might get involved with it. I don't know.

[Assistant] We'll certainly hope that all that does come through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did. I always take stuff like these flags that have been to the surface of the Moon and stuff, and they were really impressed with all of that. It was fun, trying to inspire a little bit of interest for them. That's what I like about the Challenger Center.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] If my health allows, I might get involved with it. I don't know.

[Assistant] We'll certainly hope that all that does come through.

[User] Thank you. I hope so.

[Assistant] And you are able to remain healthy and to help all of that work out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was going to Northrop Aeronautical Institute, they came recruiting. They hired me and I stayed there for 32 years I guess.

[Assistant] Where was the Northrop Institute? Where was that located?

[User] Hawthorne.

[Assistant] California?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How old were you when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hawthorne.

[Assistant] California?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How old were you when you were there?

[User] Probably 24.

[Assistant] You spent some time in the—what branch of the service were you in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How old were you when you were there?

[User] Probably 24.

[Assistant] You spent some time in the—what branch of the service were you in?

[User] Army.

[Assistant] You went to the institute, and what were your plans at the institute? What were you there for? What kind of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably 24.

[Assistant] You spent some time in the—what branch of the service were you in?

[User] Army.

[Assistant] You went to the institute, and what were your plans at the institute? What were you there for? What kind of training?

[User] I got an FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] A&E [aircraft maintenance technician] certificate to maintain aircraft and release them for flight.

[Assistant] Did you complete your training at the Institute before you came out here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Army.

[Assistant] You went to the institute, and what were your plans at the institute? What were you there for? What kind of training?

[User] I got an FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] A&E [aircraft maintenance technician] certificate to maintain aircraft and release them for flight.

[Assistant] Did you complete your training at the Institute before you came out here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Are you originally from California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got an FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] A&E [aircraft maintenance technician] certificate to maintain aircraft and release them for flight.

[Assistant] Did you complete your training at the Institute before you came out here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Are you originally from California?

[User] Kansas.

[Assistant] Well, yes, that’s a little ways away. Well, it was nice that you were able to be at the right place at the right time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Are you originally from California?

[User] Kansas.

[Assistant] Well, yes, that’s a little ways away. Well, it was nice that you were able to be at the right place at the right time.

[User] Well, I came out here to go to school.

[Assistant] What year was it that you were part of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I came out here to go to school.

[Assistant] What year was it that you were part of that?

[User]
1951.

The Army, the veterans training after he got out of the service helped many many men his age go to school.

The GI Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944].

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] We went on the GI Bill.

[Assistant] You were married at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
1951.

The Army, the veterans training after he got out of the service helped many many men his age go to school.

The GI Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944].

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] We went on the GI Bill.

[Assistant] You were married at the time?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So NACA sent a recruiter down to the Northrop Institute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went on the GI Bill.

[Assistant] You were married at the time?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So NACA sent a recruiter down to the Northrop Institute?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you moved where? Did you come out to Lancaster or Palmdale [California]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So NACA sent a recruiter down to the Northrop Institute?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you moved where? Did you come out to Lancaster or Palmdale [California]?

[User]
Mojave [California].

Mojave, it was the only place we had to live. The deactivated Marine barracks is what we lived in.

[Assistant] That was cozy, I’m sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you moved where? Did you come out to Lancaster or Palmdale [California]?

[User]
Mojave [California].

Mojave, it was the only place we had to live. The deactivated Marine barracks is what we lived in.

[Assistant] That was cozy, I’m sure.

[User]
You had to sweep the sand out of the tub. And we had a barrel of oil in front of the kitchen window; that was how we heated and cooked.

Heating oil.

[Assistant] Yes, you were camping before you knew that. You were pioneers. Tell us about the first days of working out at the base. What did they have you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Mojave [California].

Mojave, it was the only place we had to live. The deactivated Marine barracks is what we lived in.

[Assistant] That was cozy, I’m sure.

[User]
You had to sweep the sand out of the tub. And we had a barrel of oil in front of the kitchen window; that was how we heated and cooked.

Heating oil.

[Assistant] Yes, you were camping before you knew that. You were pioneers. Tell us about the first days of working out at the base. What did they have you do?

[User] The first day probably mostly orientation, to show you what kind of work they did and what they expected you to do, which helped get started.

[Assistant] What kind of planes were in the hangars when you arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
You had to sweep the sand out of the tub. And we had a barrel of oil in front of the kitchen window; that was how we heated and cooked.

Heating oil.

[Assistant] Yes, you were camping before you knew that. You were pioneers. Tell us about the first days of working out at the base. What did they have you do?

[User] The first day probably mostly orientation, to show you what kind of work they did and what they expected you to do, which helped get started.

[Assistant] What kind of planes were in the hangars when you arrived?

[User]
X models, [Bell] X-1, X-2, X-3, X-4, X-5. And the [North American] X-15.

Well, that [the X-15] would have been some years later, honey.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a sight to see planes that you had never seen before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first day probably mostly orientation, to show you what kind of work they did and what they expected you to do, which helped get started.

[Assistant] What kind of planes were in the hangars when you arrived?

[User]
X models, [Bell] X-1, X-2, X-3, X-4, X-5. And the [North American] X-15.

Well, that [the X-15] would have been some years later, honey.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a sight to see planes that you had never seen before.

[User]
It was, yes. That’s probably why I stayed. It looked very interesting.

He was flying before he came out here, but he wasn’t a pilot out here.

[Assistant] Flying your own plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
X models, [Bell] X-1, X-2, X-3, X-4, X-5. And the [North American] X-15.

Well, that [the X-15] would have been some years later, honey.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a sight to see planes that you had never seen before.

[User]
It was, yes. That’s probably why I stayed. It looked very interesting.

He was flying before he came out here, but he wasn’t a pilot out here.

[Assistant] Flying your own plane?

[User]
Yes.

In Kansas.

That was before I was married. After that I couldn’t afford to do that anymore.

[Assistant] Yes, those planes, it’s an expensive hobby, isn’t it? Those days that you went up, what did you have to bring when you went to work there? Did you have to bring your own tools as part of your job? Or did they supply tools and training for those planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was, yes. That’s probably why I stayed. It looked very interesting.

He was flying before he came out here, but he wasn’t a pilot out here.

[Assistant] Flying your own plane?

[User]
Yes.

In Kansas.

That was before I was married. After that I couldn’t afford to do that anymore.

[Assistant] Yes, those planes, it’s an expensive hobby, isn’t it? Those days that you went up, what did you have to bring when you went to work there? Did you have to bring your own tools as part of your job? Or did they supply tools and training for those planes?

[User] We had to furnish our own hand-tools, but lots of test equipment was furnished, and had to learn how to use that.

[Assistant] Who taught you how to do that? The people who had been working on it for a while, the team that was already there? Did they train you how to work on the test equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes.

In Kansas.

That was before I was married. After that I couldn’t afford to do that anymore.

[Assistant] Yes, those planes, it’s an expensive hobby, isn’t it? Those days that you went up, what did you have to bring when you went to work there? Did you have to bring your own tools as part of your job? Or did they supply tools and training for those planes?

[User] We had to furnish our own hand-tools, but lots of test equipment was furnished, and had to learn how to use that.

[Assistant] Who taught you how to do that? The people who had been working on it for a while, the team that was already there? Did they train you how to work on the test equipment?

[User] Yes. It would have been very hard to go to work with not knowing anything about it, but all the people that were there were very helpful and showed you everything.

[Assistant] Were some of the men that were there, were they from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to furnish our own hand-tools, but lots of test equipment was furnished, and had to learn how to use that.

[Assistant] Who taught you how to do that? The people who had been working on it for a while, the team that was already there? Did they train you how to work on the test equipment?

[User] Yes. It would have been very hard to go to work with not knowing anything about it, but all the people that were there were very helpful and showed you everything.

[Assistant] Were some of the men that were there, were they from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]?

[User] Yes. That was original, actually, when I hired in, the papers and everything I hired in were from Langley.

[Assistant] Do you remember the title? What was your first assignment or your first title when you walked into NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It would have been very hard to go to work with not knowing anything about it, but all the people that were there were very helpful and showed you everything.

[Assistant] Were some of the men that were there, were they from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]?

[User] Yes. That was original, actually, when I hired in, the papers and everything I hired in were from Langley.

[Assistant] Do you remember the title? What was your first assignment or your first title when you walked into NACA?

[User] I guess I was a mechanic originally.

[Assistant] Tell us about maybe the first plane and the first flight that you worked on or even witnessed out there, or one that’s memorable to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was original, actually, when I hired in, the papers and everything I hired in were from Langley.

[Assistant] Do you remember the title? What was your first assignment or your first title when you walked into NACA?

[User] I guess I was a mechanic originally.

[Assistant] Tell us about maybe the first plane and the first flight that you worked on or even witnessed out there, or one that’s memorable to you.

[User] Probably the first plane I worked on was the X-4. If we were at [my home in] Tehachapi [California] I could show you pictures of all of them, but I don’t have them here.

[Assistant] Were they all different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I was a mechanic originally.

[Assistant] Tell us about maybe the first plane and the first flight that you worked on or even witnessed out there, or one that’s memorable to you.

[User] Probably the first plane I worked on was the X-4. If we were at [my home in] Tehachapi [California] I could show you pictures of all of them, but I don’t have them here.

[Assistant] Were they all different?

[User] Oh yes. They built three of each X model usually and usually one of them crashed.

[Assistant] Did you witness that as well? Did you see some of the crashes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably the first plane I worked on was the X-4. If we were at [my home in] Tehachapi [California] I could show you pictures of all of them, but I don’t have them here.

[Assistant] Were they all different?

[User] Oh yes. They built three of each X model usually and usually one of them crashed.

[Assistant] Did you witness that as well? Did you see some of the crashes?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that impact the workforce, the people who worked on those planes? How were you able to start again the next day and keep working?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. They built three of each X model usually and usually one of them crashed.

[Assistant] Did you witness that as well? Did you see some of the crashes?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that impact the workforce, the people who worked on those planes? How were you able to start again the next day and keep working?

[User] Well, you had to, even though the pilot got killed, you had to keep going and do it again.

[Assistant] As a mechanic did you have a lot of input if you saw something wrong with the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that impact the workforce, the people who worked on those planes? How were you able to start again the next day and keep working?

[User] Well, you had to, even though the pilot got killed, you had to keep going and do it again.

[Assistant] As a mechanic did you have a lot of input if you saw something wrong with the plane?

[User]
Oh yes. As a mechanic inspection was part of your job too. You checked each other’s work to make sure your fellow hadn’t messed something up.

Because he went from a mechanic to an inspector, and then to Chief of Inspection. He was in the office then after a while. He went to school, and they sent him to school. He was quality control, but he had retired.

[Assistant] What were some of the changes? You worked on the X planes and then the X-15. Tell us about changing your role from a mechanic then to one that was in charge of the inspections. That was a lot of responsibility to make sure that those planes were ready to fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you had to, even though the pilot got killed, you had to keep going and do it again.

[Assistant] As a mechanic did you have a lot of input if you saw something wrong with the plane?

[User]
Oh yes. As a mechanic inspection was part of your job too. You checked each other’s work to make sure your fellow hadn’t messed something up.

Because he went from a mechanic to an inspector, and then to Chief of Inspection. He was in the office then after a while. He went to school, and they sent him to school. He was quality control, but he had retired.

[Assistant] What were some of the changes? You worked on the X planes and then the X-15. Tell us about changing your role from a mechanic then to one that was in charge of the inspections. That was a lot of responsibility to make sure that those planes were ready to fly.

[User] As you gained experience you were more qualified to do those things.

[Assistant] Did you know a lot about when they would make the changes like from the early X planes to the X-15, and then they went to the Lifting Bodies? Were you involved in those discussions about the designs of the planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes. As a mechanic inspection was part of your job too. You checked each other’s work to make sure your fellow hadn’t messed something up.

Because he went from a mechanic to an inspector, and then to Chief of Inspection. He was in the office then after a while. He went to school, and they sent him to school. He was quality control, but he had retired.

[Assistant] What were some of the changes? You worked on the X planes and then the X-15. Tell us about changing your role from a mechanic then to one that was in charge of the inspections. That was a lot of responsibility to make sure that those planes were ready to fly.

[User] As you gained experience you were more qualified to do those things.

[Assistant] Did you know a lot about when they would make the changes like from the early X planes to the X-15, and then they went to the Lifting Bodies? Were you involved in those discussions about the designs of the planes?

[User] Oh yes. We were involved in the design of a lot of new—had to put new input in the designs, see if we could approve of what they were doing, and not make mistakes, and try to keep them from making mistakes.

[Assistant] I guess sometimes ideas look good on paper but they don’t fly very well, do they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As you gained experience you were more qualified to do those things.

[Assistant] Did you know a lot about when they would make the changes like from the early X planes to the X-15, and then they went to the Lifting Bodies? Were you involved in those discussions about the designs of the planes?

[User] Oh yes. We were involved in the design of a lot of new—had to put new input in the designs, see if we could approve of what they were doing, and not make mistakes, and try to keep them from making mistakes.

[Assistant] I guess sometimes ideas look good on paper but they don’t fly very well, do they?

[User]
Right.

He had to keep them straightened out from the Engineering Department. They didn’t like that sometimes.

[Assistant] I’m sure there were some planes that never got off the ground? Were there some of those too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. We were involved in the design of a lot of new—had to put new input in the designs, see if we could approve of what they were doing, and not make mistakes, and try to keep them from making mistakes.

[Assistant] I guess sometimes ideas look good on paper but they don’t fly very well, do they?

[User]
Right.

He had to keep them straightened out from the Engineering Department. They didn’t like that sometimes.

[Assistant] I’m sure there were some planes that never got off the ground? Were there some of those too?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You went from the X planes, and you went to those Lifting Bodies. What were your thoughts when you first saw some of the designs for that type of a structure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Right.

He had to keep them straightened out from the Engineering Department. They didn’t like that sometimes.

[Assistant] I’m sure there were some planes that never got off the ground? Were there some of those too?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You went from the X planes, and you went to those Lifting Bodies. What were your thoughts when you first saw some of the designs for that type of a structure?

[User]
A Lifting Body didn’t have any wings, the lift came from the bottom of the fuselage. They flew pretty good, it was a good reentry vehicle for reentering the atmosphere from flying in space.

I think one of the really interesting things is when they started, the way they checked the motors, the only way was to put their ear right against the motor. That’s the reason why he is deaf almost. That’s how they checked to make sure that it was going to fly.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little more about that? What were you listening for when you would put your ear down by the motor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You went from the X planes, and you went to those Lifting Bodies. What were your thoughts when you first saw some of the designs for that type of a structure?

[User]
A Lifting Body didn’t have any wings, the lift came from the bottom of the fuselage. They flew pretty good, it was a good reentry vehicle for reentering the atmosphere from flying in space.

I think one of the really interesting things is when they started, the way they checked the motors, the only way was to put their ear right against the motor. That’s the reason why he is deaf almost. That’s how they checked to make sure that it was going to fly.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little more about that? What were you listening for when you would put your ear down by the motor?

[User] Any bearings and things that were making noise. Some of the pictures they have of us checking airplanes, everybody was around, and the only ear protection we had was this.

[Assistant] Put your fingers in your ears? That didn’t help much, did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
A Lifting Body didn’t have any wings, the lift came from the bottom of the fuselage. They flew pretty good, it was a good reentry vehicle for reentering the atmosphere from flying in space.

I think one of the really interesting things is when they started, the way they checked the motors, the only way was to put their ear right against the motor. That’s the reason why he is deaf almost. That’s how they checked to make sure that it was going to fly.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little more about that? What were you listening for when you would put your ear down by the motor?

[User] Any bearings and things that were making noise. Some of the pictures they have of us checking airplanes, everybody was around, and the only ear protection we had was this.

[Assistant] Put your fingers in your ears? That didn’t help much, did it?

[User] Not much. So all of us ended up deaf.

[Assistant] I find that so interesting, because the only way that you knew that it sounded correctly was constantly being around the correct sound.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Any bearings and things that were making noise. Some of the pictures they have of us checking airplanes, everybody was around, and the only ear protection we had was this.

[Assistant] Put your fingers in your ears? That didn’t help much, did it?

[User] Not much. So all of us ended up deaf.

[Assistant] I find that so interesting, because the only way that you knew that it sounded correctly was constantly being around the correct sound.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you identified that there was something not correct, how did you tell someone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much. So all of us ended up deaf.

[Assistant] I find that so interesting, because the only way that you knew that it sounded correctly was constantly being around the correct sound.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you identified that there was something not correct, how did you tell someone?

[User] We’d wave at the coordinator up in front, and he’d shut it down. Then we’d go look and see if we could find out what the problem was. Usually we could.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of teamwork that they trusted you to—and hopefully that you knew what you were talking about or hearing. Are there any other tricks that you had that you knew, like when you heard the bearings not being right, or the engine not sounding right? Is there anything else that you taught the next group of people to listen for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you identified that there was something not correct, how did you tell someone?

[User] We’d wave at the coordinator up in front, and he’d shut it down. Then we’d go look and see if we could find out what the problem was. Usually we could.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of teamwork that they trusted you to—and hopefully that you knew what you were talking about or hearing. Are there any other tricks that you had that you knew, like when you heard the bearings not being right, or the engine not sounding right? Is there anything else that you taught the next group of people to listen for?

[User] Sometimes when we had an engine problem, we’d get the factory people back down there to work on it, and tell them what was going wrong. They’d work on it, and finally figure out a fix.

[Assistant] You worked closely with North American or McDonnell Douglas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’d wave at the coordinator up in front, and he’d shut it down. Then we’d go look and see if we could find out what the problem was. Usually we could.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of teamwork that they trusted you to—and hopefully that you knew what you were talking about or hearing. Are there any other tricks that you had that you knew, like when you heard the bearings not being right, or the engine not sounding right? Is there anything else that you taught the next group of people to listen for?

[User] Sometimes when we had an engine problem, we’d get the factory people back down there to work on it, and tell them what was going wrong. They’d work on it, and finally figure out a fix.

[Assistant] You worked closely with North American or McDonnell Douglas?

[User] Northrop, North American, Rockwell.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to go work for any of those companies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes when we had an engine problem, we’d get the factory people back down there to work on it, and tell them what was going wrong. They’d work on it, and finally figure out a fix.

[Assistant] You worked closely with North American or McDonnell Douglas?

[User] Northrop, North American, Rockwell.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to go work for any of those companies?

[User] I could have but I didn’t go.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to stay with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Northrop, North American, Rockwell.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to go work for any of those companies?

[User] I could have but I didn’t go.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to stay with NASA?

[User] I liked working there, and the variety of projects we had. If you went for a company you were just working on one item usually.

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of projects like three or four? Or were there different projects in different stages all the time when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could have but I didn’t go.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to stay with NASA?

[User] I liked working there, and the variety of projects we had. If you went for a company you were just working on one item usually.

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of projects like three or four? Or were there different projects in different stages all the time when you were there?

[User] There were three or four projects going on at the same time, three or four different airplanes at different stages of testing.

[Assistant] In ’57, when the Soviet Union launched Sputnik [satellite], it started a change in America’s culture, and NASA was then formed. Do you remember much about the transition, or was there a big transition there when all of that began to happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I liked working there, and the variety of projects we had. If you went for a company you were just working on one item usually.

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of projects like three or four? Or were there different projects in different stages all the time when you were there?

[User] There were three or four projects going on at the same time, three or four different airplanes at different stages of testing.

[Assistant] In ’57, when the Soviet Union launched Sputnik [satellite], it started a change in America’s culture, and NASA was then formed. Do you remember much about the transition, or was there a big transition there when all of that began to happen?

[User] Yes, I remember I was working night shift, and we’d go outside and watch it fly over.

[Assistant] You had a good view out there, didn’t you? Were there any changes after NACA transitioned into NASA that affected your job? Or was it just a badge and a patch change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were three or four projects going on at the same time, three or four different airplanes at different stages of testing.

[Assistant] In ’57, when the Soviet Union launched Sputnik [satellite], it started a change in America’s culture, and NASA was then formed. Do you remember much about the transition, or was there a big transition there when all of that began to happen?

[User] Yes, I remember I was working night shift, and we’d go outside and watch it fly over.

[Assistant] You had a good view out there, didn’t you? Were there any changes after NACA transitioned into NASA that affected your job? Or was it just a badge and a patch change?

[User] We had developed a Moon landing system for the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle [LLRV], which was developed to test a landing vehicle for the Moon.

[Assistant] What kind of work did you do with that research vehicle? Did you help with the design or inspecting for the safety?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I remember I was working night shift, and we’d go outside and watch it fly over.

[Assistant] You had a good view out there, didn’t you? Were there any changes after NACA transitioned into NASA that affected your job? Or was it just a badge and a patch change?

[User] We had developed a Moon landing system for the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle [LLRV], which was developed to test a landing vehicle for the Moon.

[Assistant] What kind of work did you do with that research vehicle? Did you help with the design or inspecting for the safety?

[User] Mostly safety work.

[Assistant] It’s a very treacherous vehicle, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had developed a Moon landing system for the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle [LLRV], which was developed to test a landing vehicle for the Moon.

[Assistant] What kind of work did you do with that research vehicle? Did you help with the design or inspecting for the safety?

[User] Mostly safety work.

[Assistant] It’s a very treacherous vehicle, isn’t it?

[User] Things could happen.

[Assistant] At any time. But the accidents were minimum, if I remember, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly safety work.

[Assistant] It’s a very treacherous vehicle, isn’t it?

[User] Things could happen.

[Assistant] At any time. But the accidents were minimum, if I remember, is that correct?

[User]
Not many accidents.

There’s one other little thing. This is just an aside, but during the Russian thing he came home with a book, what I was supposed to do should we get hit. He told me, “You take the children and go straight to the Borax Mine, because at the Borax Mine out next to Edwards [Air Force Base] they had underground place for all the employees’ families to go in case of a Russian attack. And I think in Tehachapi we still have the little booklet of what we should do, and what we should have on hand, the wives, to go quickly. Heck, we were an hour away, and I had five little kids. It would have been something for me to get them all out there.

[Assistant] Yes, just getting them in the car. I’m sure you had them trained by then, but that’s that hidden fear at that time of knowing what to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Things could happen.

[Assistant] At any time. But the accidents were minimum, if I remember, is that correct?

[User]
Not many accidents.

There’s one other little thing. This is just an aside, but during the Russian thing he came home with a book, what I was supposed to do should we get hit. He told me, “You take the children and go straight to the Borax Mine, because at the Borax Mine out next to Edwards [Air Force Base] they had underground place for all the employees’ families to go in case of a Russian attack. And I think in Tehachapi we still have the little booklet of what we should do, and what we should have on hand, the wives, to go quickly. Heck, we were an hour away, and I had five little kids. It would have been something for me to get them all out there.

[Assistant] Yes, just getting them in the car. I’m sure you had them trained by then, but that’s that hidden fear at that time of knowing what to do.

[User] Oh, it was, it was very real.

[Assistant] Then years later, with the race to the Moon, you were part of that, by helping with that LLRV.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Not many accidents.

There’s one other little thing. This is just an aside, but during the Russian thing he came home with a book, what I was supposed to do should we get hit. He told me, “You take the children and go straight to the Borax Mine, because at the Borax Mine out next to Edwards [Air Force Base] they had underground place for all the employees’ families to go in case of a Russian attack. And I think in Tehachapi we still have the little booklet of what we should do, and what we should have on hand, the wives, to go quickly. Heck, we were an hour away, and I had five little kids. It would have been something for me to get them all out there.

[Assistant] Yes, just getting them in the car. I’m sure you had them trained by then, but that’s that hidden fear at that time of knowing what to do.

[User] Oh, it was, it was very real.

[Assistant] Then years later, with the race to the Moon, you were part of that, by helping with that LLRV.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you part of watching when the pilots would take it out and try it and experiment with it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was, it was very real.

[Assistant] Then years later, with the race to the Moon, you were part of that, by helping with that LLRV.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you part of watching when the pilots would take it out and try it and experiment with it?

[User] Oh yes. Buckled them up in the seats.

[Assistant] How long did the test take, was it different than the other airplanes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you part of watching when the pilots would take it out and try it and experiment with it?

[User] Oh yes. Buckled them up in the seats.

[Assistant] How long did the test take, was it different than the other airplanes?

[User] Different. One of the airplanes we had would only fly about 15 minutes and come back and refuel and go again and go full speed and it wouldn’t take long for them to burn up all their fuel, so they had to come right back.

[Assistant] Did you inspect it each time it was back on the ground?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Buckled them up in the seats.

[Assistant] How long did the test take, was it different than the other airplanes?

[User] Different. One of the airplanes we had would only fly about 15 minutes and come back and refuel and go again and go full speed and it wouldn’t take long for them to burn up all their fuel, so they had to come right back.

[Assistant] Did you inspect it each time it was back on the ground?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you make modifications or take notes? Or what were you doing when it came back down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Different. One of the airplanes we had would only fly about 15 minutes and come back and refuel and go again and go full speed and it wouldn’t take long for them to burn up all their fuel, so they had to come right back.

[Assistant] Did you inspect it each time it was back on the ground?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you make modifications or take notes? Or what were you doing when it came back down?

[User] Check it for any leaks, or see if it had been damaged from heat. They get hot from flying fast through the atmosphere. Makes them very hot. In fact one of our X-15s they added fuel tanks and got it going too fast and burned part of the controls off. It was made out of Inconel X [alloy], not aluminum. It got hot.

[Assistant] I guess that was an experiment in itself, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you make modifications or take notes? Or what were you doing when it came back down?

[User] Check it for any leaks, or see if it had been damaged from heat. They get hot from flying fast through the atmosphere. Makes them very hot. In fact one of our X-15s they added fuel tanks and got it going too fast and burned part of the controls off. It was made out of Inconel X [alloy], not aluminum. It got hot.

[Assistant] I guess that was an experiment in itself, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The pilots had suits, did you have any protective gear or any special equipment you put on when you were inspecting those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Check it for any leaks, or see if it had been damaged from heat. They get hot from flying fast through the atmosphere. Makes them very hot. In fact one of our X-15s they added fuel tanks and got it going too fast and burned part of the controls off. It was made out of Inconel X [alloy], not aluminum. It got hot.

[Assistant] I guess that was an experiment in itself, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The pilots had suits, did you have any protective gear or any special equipment you put on when you were inspecting those?

[User] It depended on the type of fuel they were using. Some of the fuel was very toxic, so we had to use pressurized suits with breathing apparatus. That wasn’t very comfortable.

[Assistant] No, but I guess it was better than breathing in dangerous fumes. Did you have a large team that you worked with when you would be working with these planes on the ground? How many people did you work with that were the ground crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The pilots had suits, did you have any protective gear or any special equipment you put on when you were inspecting those?

[User] It depended on the type of fuel they were using. Some of the fuel was very toxic, so we had to use pressurized suits with breathing apparatus. That wasn’t very comfortable.

[Assistant] No, but I guess it was better than breathing in dangerous fumes. Did you have a large team that you worked with when you would be working with these planes on the ground? How many people did you work with that were the ground crew?

[User] Oh, probably 15.

[Assistant] All men? They were all men?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It depended on the type of fuel they were using. Some of the fuel was very toxic, so we had to use pressurized suits with breathing apparatus. That wasn’t very comfortable.

[Assistant] No, but I guess it was better than breathing in dangerous fumes. Did you have a large team that you worked with when you would be working with these planes on the ground? How many people did you work with that were the ground crew?

[User] Oh, probably 15.

[Assistant] All men? They were all men?

[User] Yes. At that time. There’s some women now.

[Assistant] After the Apollo Program closed down, the [Space] Shuttle Program was moving its way through its development. What role did you play, or how were you involved with that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, probably 15.

[Assistant] All men? They were all men?

[User] Yes. At that time. There’s some women now.

[Assistant] After the Apollo Program closed down, the [Space] Shuttle Program was moving its way through its development. What role did you play, or how were you involved with that at all?

[User] We did some testing on the Shuttle, mostly reentering into the atmosphere.

[Assistant] Those Lifting Bodies worked again, didn’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. At that time. There’s some women now.

[Assistant] After the Apollo Program closed down, the [Space] Shuttle Program was moving its way through its development. What role did you play, or how were you involved with that at all?

[User] We did some testing on the Shuttle, mostly reentering into the atmosphere.

[Assistant] Those Lifting Bodies worked again, didn’t they?

[User]
Were you quality control then, honey?

Yes.

[Assistant] We just mentioned about more women being involved now out at the base and at the Station. Once NASA started moving toward finding a way to the Moon, were there more people that were joining out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did some testing on the Shuttle, mostly reentering into the atmosphere.

[Assistant] Those Lifting Bodies worked again, didn’t they?

[User]
Were you quality control then, honey?

Yes.

[Assistant] We just mentioned about more women being involved now out at the base and at the Station. Once NASA started moving toward finding a way to the Moon, were there more people that were joining out there?

[User] Oh yes. It was an interesting program. A lot of people wanted to come to work there, so they had a good pick of experience there to hire from.

[Assistant] What types of training programs did you go through after you got there? Did they send you to learn more about anything in specific, as you were moving your way up through your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Were you quality control then, honey?

Yes.

[Assistant] We just mentioned about more women being involved now out at the base and at the Station. Once NASA started moving toward finding a way to the Moon, were there more people that were joining out there?

[User] Oh yes. It was an interesting program. A lot of people wanted to come to work there, so they had a good pick of experience there to hire from.

[Assistant] What types of training programs did you go through after you got there? Did they send you to learn more about anything in specific, as you were moving your way up through your career?

[User]
Usually when we got some new equipment, new projects, they usually had people right on base that took us through the training for it, and operating it.

You went back to the University of Kansas, they sent you back east for several things. Do you remember that, honey? They sent you back east to train, and you went to KU to train.

Yes.

There were a number of things that you went back east for.

[Assistant] Were those for management type classes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. It was an interesting program. A lot of people wanted to come to work there, so they had a good pick of experience there to hire from.

[Assistant] What types of training programs did you go through after you got there? Did they send you to learn more about anything in specific, as you were moving your way up through your career?

[User]
Usually when we got some new equipment, new projects, they usually had people right on base that took us through the training for it, and operating it.

You went back to the University of Kansas, they sent you back east for several things. Do you remember that, honey? They sent you back east to train, and you went to KU to train.

Yes.

There were a number of things that you went back east for.

[Assistant] Were those for management type classes?

[User] Well, at KU, it was to teach. At different universities, they were teaching people to come to work out here or interest them. I think that’s what he did at KU. He’ll know if he thinks about it for a minute.

[Assistant] What time period was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Usually when we got some new equipment, new projects, they usually had people right on base that took us through the training for it, and operating it.

You went back to the University of Kansas, they sent you back east for several things. Do you remember that, honey? They sent you back east to train, and you went to KU to train.

Yes.

There were a number of things that you went back east for.

[Assistant] Were those for management type classes?

[User] Well, at KU, it was to teach. At different universities, they were teaching people to come to work out here or interest them. I think that’s what he did at KU. He’ll know if he thinks about it for a minute.

[Assistant] What time period was that?

[User] It was when you were in quality control, wasn’t it? It was when the Space Shuttle was starting? Because he was there through the second Space Shuttle landing. I’m sorry dear, did I confuse you?

[Assistant] That’s okay. We’ve got time to sort it out. There was a lot going on all the time, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at KU, it was to teach. At different universities, they were teaching people to come to work out here or interest them. I think that’s what he did at KU. He’ll know if he thinks about it for a minute.

[Assistant] What time period was that?

[User] It was when you were in quality control, wasn’t it? It was when the Space Shuttle was starting? Because he was there through the second Space Shuttle landing. I’m sorry dear, did I confuse you?

[Assistant] That’s okay. We’ve got time to sort it out. There was a lot going on all the time, wasn’t it?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I think sometimes we forget that just because a plane is flying, there’s two or three more that are being designed and looked at.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was when you were in quality control, wasn’t it? It was when the Space Shuttle was starting? Because he was there through the second Space Shuttle landing. I’m sorry dear, did I confuse you?

[Assistant] That’s okay. We’ve got time to sort it out. There was a lot going on all the time, wasn’t it?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I think sometimes we forget that just because a plane is flying, there’s two or three more that are being designed and looked at.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite memory or a favorite time that you were working out there that you’d like to share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I think sometimes we forget that just because a plane is flying, there’s two or three more that are being designed and looked at.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite memory or a favorite time that you were working out there that you’d like to share with us?

[User] Probably my favorite project was the X-15 Project. It was new and it was faster and lots of new things.

[Assistant] Did it ever scare you being around that plane? It was a powerful piece of equipment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite memory or a favorite time that you were working out there that you’d like to share with us?

[User] Probably my favorite project was the X-15 Project. It was new and it was faster and lots of new things.

[Assistant] Did it ever scare you being around that plane? It was a powerful piece of equipment.

[User]
Yes, it was noisy.

I don’t think he was ever scared. He loved that job.

[Assistant] Did you get to fly in any of the planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably my favorite project was the X-15 Project. It was new and it was faster and lots of new things.

[Assistant] Did it ever scare you being around that plane? It was a powerful piece of equipment.

[User]
Yes, it was noisy.

I don’t think he was ever scared. He loved that job.

[Assistant] Did you get to fly in any of the planes?

[User] In the early days, when we had [Boeing] B-29s [Superfortress] launching our rockets, X-1s and X-2s, I flew in the backseat of the B-29 sometimes watched them launch.

[Assistant] That is a very unique perspective, wasn’t it? Were you able to learn anything to apply to the next time? Or was it just for observation to watch it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, it was noisy.

I don’t think he was ever scared. He loved that job.

[Assistant] Did you get to fly in any of the planes?

[User] In the early days, when we had [Boeing] B-29s [Superfortress] launching our rockets, X-1s and X-2s, I flew in the backseat of the B-29 sometimes watched them launch.

[Assistant] That is a very unique perspective, wasn’t it? Were you able to learn anything to apply to the next time? Or was it just for observation to watch it?

[User] Mostly for observation, make sure the engine was performing before they launched and there weren’t any big leaks or anything like that.

[Assistant] Were you back in time for the landing to see it land?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the early days, when we had [Boeing] B-29s [Superfortress] launching our rockets, X-1s and X-2s, I flew in the backseat of the B-29 sometimes watched them launch.

[Assistant] That is a very unique perspective, wasn’t it? Were you able to learn anything to apply to the next time? Or was it just for observation to watch it?

[User] Mostly for observation, make sure the engine was performing before they launched and there weren’t any big leaks or anything like that.

[Assistant] Were you back in time for the landing to see it land?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel much for your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly for observation, make sure the engine was performing before they launched and there weren’t any big leaks or anything like that.

[Assistant] Were you back in time for the landing to see it land?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel much for your job?

[User] Not very much.

[Assistant] Was that a good thing? With five kids, I’m sure it was helpful not to be on the road.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you travel much for your job?

[User] Not very much.

[Assistant] Was that a good thing? With five kids, I’m sure it was helpful not to be on the road.

[User] In later years he traveled more. He was gone so much because they went in early. There were some times when they had a project going they worked 21 hours a day and they slept at Edwards in the hangar.

[Assistant]
Had to keep them going, didn’t you? I was going to ask Sandra if she had some other questions. I know she’s been taking some notes.

Yes, I have a couple of questions. When they came and recruited you, when you were in school, for the NACA, how much did you know about what was being done with the NACA at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very much.

[Assistant] Was that a good thing? With five kids, I’m sure it was helpful not to be on the road.

[User] In later years he traveled more. He was gone so much because they went in early. There were some times when they had a project going they worked 21 hours a day and they slept at Edwards in the hangar.

[Assistant]
Had to keep them going, didn’t you? I was going to ask Sandra if she had some other questions. I know she’s been taking some notes.

Yes, I have a couple of questions. When they came and recruited you, when you were in school, for the NACA, how much did you know about what was being done with the NACA at that time?

[User] I had barely heard about it. But it sounded very interesting from the recruiters.

[Assistant] Did they explain some of the work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In later years he traveled more. He was gone so much because they went in early. There were some times when they had a project going they worked 21 hours a day and they slept at Edwards in the hangar.

[Assistant]
Had to keep them going, didn’t you? I was going to ask Sandra if she had some other questions. I know she’s been taking some notes.

Yes, I have a couple of questions. When they came and recruited you, when you were in school, for the NACA, how much did you know about what was being done with the NACA at that time?

[User] I had barely heard about it. But it sounded very interesting from the recruiters.

[Assistant] Did they explain some of the work?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know a lot of it was classified, so did you have to have secret clearance to work on the X planes and the X-15?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had barely heard about it. But it sounded very interesting from the recruiters.

[Assistant] Did they explain some of the work?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know a lot of it was classified, so did you have to have secret clearance to work on the X planes and the X-15?

[User]
I had a secret clearance. I don’t remember when I got it.

You got it right after you went to work, because back in Kansas, they were going around in the neighborhood—they thought he was in trouble—and checking on everything he had done and the service that he had been in, everything.

[Assistant] Yes, I would imagine, since he was working on those early X planes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know a lot of it was classified, so did you have to have secret clearance to work on the X planes and the X-15?

[User]
I had a secret clearance. I don’t remember when I got it.

You got it right after you went to work, because back in Kansas, they were going around in the neighborhood—they thought he was in trouble—and checking on everything he had done and the service that he had been in, everything.

[Assistant] Yes, I would imagine, since he was working on those early X planes.

[User] And they couldn’t imagine why he was getting [investigated].

[Assistant] Yes, it made people wonder, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I had a secret clearance. I don’t remember when I got it.

You got it right after you went to work, because back in Kansas, they were going around in the neighborhood—they thought he was in trouble—and checking on everything he had done and the service that he had been in, everything.

[Assistant] Yes, I would imagine, since he was working on those early X planes.

[User] And they couldn’t imagine why he was getting [investigated].

[Assistant] Yes, it made people wonder, didn’t it?

[User] Small town Kansas was very curious.

[Assistant] What were the working conditions? Because when you started they were still at the South Base in the old section.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they couldn’t imagine why he was getting [investigated].

[Assistant] Yes, it made people wonder, didn’t it?

[User] Small town Kansas was very curious.

[Assistant] What were the working conditions? Because when you started they were still at the South Base in the old section.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then in 1954 is when they moved to the new buildings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Small town Kansas was very curious.

[Assistant] What were the working conditions? Because when you started they were still at the South Base in the old section.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then in 1954 is when they moved to the new buildings.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did those working conditions compare for what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then in 1954 is when they moved to the new buildings.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did those working conditions compare for what you were doing?

[User] It happened so quickly that you couldn’t tell much difference really.

[Assistant] You were in a hangar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did those working conditions compare for what you were doing?

[User] It happened so quickly that you couldn’t tell much difference really.

[Assistant] You were in a hangar?

[User] New hangar.

[Assistant] Was it more convenient for you on that side of that base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It happened so quickly that you couldn’t tell much difference really.

[Assistant] You were in a hangar?

[User] New hangar.

[Assistant] Was it more convenient for you on that side of that base?

[User] After things got arranged right, yes. Took a while to get everything set up, but it was a lot nicer. Had more room and could work inside the hangar in the hot summer days.

[Assistant] Was it air-conditioned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] New hangar.

[Assistant] Was it more convenient for you on that side of that base?

[User] After things got arranged right, yes. Took a while to get everything set up, but it was a lot nicer. Had more room and could work inside the hangar in the hot summer days.

[Assistant] Was it air-conditioned?

[User] No.

[Assistant] From what we’ve heard, the new building was air-conditioned, the main building.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After things got arranged right, yes. Took a while to get everything set up, but it was a lot nicer. Had more room and could work inside the hangar in the hot summer days.

[Assistant] Was it air-conditioned?

[User] No.

[Assistant] From what we’ve heard, the new building was air-conditioned, the main building.

[User] The new one, yes. I think even some of the hangars are air-conditioned now.

[Assistant] A lot different than when you were there, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] From what we’ve heard, the new building was air-conditioned, the main building.

[User] The new one, yes. I think even some of the hangars are air-conditioned now.

[Assistant] A lot different than when you were there, right?

[User] Freezing cold in the winter too.

[Assistant] Especially in the early years there weren’t very many people on the base, and the numbers started growing. But one of the things that we’ve heard other people talk about is the social groups and the athletic groups that would get together and do things. Did either of you or both of you participate in any of the social events or any of those type of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The new one, yes. I think even some of the hangars are air-conditioned now.

[Assistant] A lot different than when you were there, right?

[User] Freezing cold in the winter too.

[Assistant] Especially in the early years there weren’t very many people on the base, and the numbers started growing. But one of the things that we’ve heard other people talk about is the social groups and the athletic groups that would get together and do things. Did either of you or both of you participate in any of the social events or any of those type of things?

[User]
We went to parties, didn’t we?

Yes, but it was NACA, and we went even to NACA reunions afterwards. We went to nearly everything, but we didn’t belong to the baseball team. He was on the bowling team. WONASA was the Women of NASA. I was the historian for that. And then I passed it on to somebody else. I don’t have any of that material, it was passed on through. There were I don’t know how many of us. Not a whole lot when we started. But I was busy with five little ones.

[Assistant] I could imagine you were. Do you remember when that was formed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Freezing cold in the winter too.

[Assistant] Especially in the early years there weren’t very many people on the base, and the numbers started growing. But one of the things that we’ve heard other people talk about is the social groups and the athletic groups that would get together and do things. Did either of you or both of you participate in any of the social events or any of those type of things?

[User]
We went to parties, didn’t we?

Yes, but it was NACA, and we went even to NACA reunions afterwards. We went to nearly everything, but we didn’t belong to the baseball team. He was on the bowling team. WONASA was the Women of NASA. I was the historian for that. And then I passed it on to somebody else. I don’t have any of that material, it was passed on through. There were I don’t know how many of us. Not a whole lot when we started. But I was busy with five little ones.

[Assistant] I could imagine you were. Do you remember when that was formed?

[User] Let’s see, well, it was right after it was NASA. Maybe a year afterwards. And then that included the mechanics’ wives then, and the engineering wives. That included all of them. As time went on, that sort of divided up. Then I wasn’t in it anymore.

[Assistant] The NACA was more of a family and it was a different way of doing things. Then as the years went on in NASA, it changed things as far as the way people related.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We went to parties, didn’t we?

Yes, but it was NACA, and we went even to NACA reunions afterwards. We went to nearly everything, but we didn’t belong to the baseball team. He was on the bowling team. WONASA was the Women of NASA. I was the historian for that. And then I passed it on to somebody else. I don’t have any of that material, it was passed on through. There were I don’t know how many of us. Not a whole lot when we started. But I was busy with five little ones.

[Assistant] I could imagine you were. Do you remember when that was formed?

[User] Let’s see, well, it was right after it was NASA. Maybe a year afterwards. And then that included the mechanics’ wives then, and the engineering wives. That included all of them. As time went on, that sort of divided up. Then I wasn’t in it anymore.

[Assistant] The NACA was more of a family and it was a different way of doing things. Then as the years went on in NASA, it changed things as far as the way people related.

[User] We went to the Halloween parties, the Christmas parties. We got a babysitter, and we went to all those things, and it was fun, and we dressed up. It was more family. Then also when it was first NASA, in the summertime they would have family picnics, and we would go someplace and the little ones all came. But it was family.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s nice that it was.\n\n I was wondering about technology changes. You said you had to supply your own hand-tools when you first started. Then of course technology between ’51 and ’85 when you left, there were a lot of changes that happened and took place. Can you talk about that? Or was there anything specific that you can remember that really was different from the time you started to when you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see, well, it was right after it was NASA. Maybe a year afterwards. And then that included the mechanics’ wives then, and the engineering wives. That included all of them. As time went on, that sort of divided up. Then I wasn’t in it anymore.

[Assistant] The NACA was more of a family and it was a different way of doing things. Then as the years went on in NASA, it changed things as far as the way people related.

[User] We went to the Halloween parties, the Christmas parties. We got a babysitter, and we went to all those things, and it was fun, and we dressed up. It was more family. Then also when it was first NASA, in the summertime they would have family picnics, and we would go someplace and the little ones all came. But it was family.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s nice that it was.\n\n I was wondering about technology changes. You said you had to supply your own hand-tools when you first started. Then of course technology between ’51 and ’85 when you left, there were a lot of changes that happened and took place. Can you talk about that? Or was there anything specific that you can remember that really was different from the time you started to when you retired?

[User] It happened so you really didn’t pay much attention to it. You just went with the flow.

[Assistant] So whatever was available, that’s what you learned to use and work with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to the Halloween parties, the Christmas parties. We got a babysitter, and we went to all those things, and it was fun, and we dressed up. It was more family. Then also when it was first NASA, in the summertime they would have family picnics, and we would go someplace and the little ones all came. But it was family.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s nice that it was.\n\n I was wondering about technology changes. You said you had to supply your own hand-tools when you first started. Then of course technology between ’51 and ’85 when you left, there were a lot of changes that happened and took place. Can you talk about that? Or was there anything specific that you can remember that really was different from the time you started to when you retired?

[User] It happened so you really didn’t pay much attention to it. You just went with the flow.

[Assistant] So whatever was available, that’s what you learned to use and work with?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would computers make a big difference, when the airplanes became more computerized?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It happened so you really didn’t pay much attention to it. You just went with the flow.

[Assistant] So whatever was available, that’s what you learned to use and work with?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would computers make a big difference, when the airplanes became more computerized?

[User] Computers, yes. Everything is tested by computer now. We couldn’t fly airplanes without computers.

[Assistant] And you worked through the second landing of the Shuttle? You worked through that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would computers make a big difference, when the airplanes became more computerized?

[User] Computers, yes. Everything is tested by computer now. We couldn’t fly airplanes without computers.

[Assistant] And you worked through the second landing of the Shuttle? You worked through that?

[User]
I think I retired after that.

After the second landing.

[Assistant] Those first programs you worked on were somewhat secret, and people didn’t know that the X-15 was flying. Then when the Shuttle came along, all of a sudden you have a lot of people showing up, and people from the media, and people that just wanted to watch. How was that? That was quite a change for the people that were working out there, I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Computers, yes. Everything is tested by computer now. We couldn’t fly airplanes without computers.

[Assistant] And you worked through the second landing of the Shuttle? You worked through that?

[User]
I think I retired after that.

After the second landing.

[Assistant] Those first programs you worked on were somewhat secret, and people didn’t know that the X-15 was flying. Then when the Shuttle came along, all of a sudden you have a lot of people showing up, and people from the media, and people that just wanted to watch. How was that? That was quite a change for the people that were working out there, I would imagine.

[User] Oh yes. Out at the base whenever a Shuttle landed there’d be cars up on the hill parked watching the landing.

[Assistant] Did you go out and watch any of the landings too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think I retired after that.

After the second landing.

[Assistant] Those first programs you worked on were somewhat secret, and people didn’t know that the X-15 was flying. Then when the Shuttle came along, all of a sudden you have a lot of people showing up, and people from the media, and people that just wanted to watch. How was that? That was quite a change for the people that were working out there, I would imagine.

[User] Oh yes. Out at the base whenever a Shuttle landed there’d be cars up on the hill parked watching the landing.

[Assistant] Did you go out and watch any of the landings too?

[User] Yes. I watched them from the runway.

[Assistant] Did your kids get to see them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Out at the base whenever a Shuttle landed there’d be cars up on the hill parked watching the landing.

[Assistant] Did you go out and watch any of the landings too?

[User] Yes. I watched them from the runway.

[Assistant] Did your kids get to see them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
I bet that was impressive for them.

You could actually take them out and show them some of the work that you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I watched them from the runway.

[Assistant] Did your kids get to see them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
I bet that was impressive for them.

You could actually take them out and show them some of the work that you did.

[User] And grandchildren later. Prince Charles [Prince of Wales] from England came.

[Assistant] That’s what I was going to ask, if there were any dignitaries that you remember coming out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
I bet that was impressive for them.

You could actually take them out and show them some of the work that you did.

[User] And grandchildren later. Prince Charles [Prince of Wales] from England came.

[Assistant] That’s what I was going to ask, if there were any dignitaries that you remember coming out.

[User]
Oh, many.

LBJ [President Lyndon B. Johnson] was there one time.

[Assistant] Did you meet him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And grandchildren later. Prince Charles [Prince of Wales] from England came.

[Assistant] That’s what I was going to ask, if there were any dignitaries that you remember coming out.

[User]
Oh, many.

LBJ [President Lyndon B. Johnson] was there one time.

[Assistant] Did you meet him?

[User] He talked to us. I guess he shook everybody’s hand, he was a friendly guy.

[Assistant]
He was a hand shaker.

You said Prince Charles came.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh, many.

LBJ [President Lyndon B. Johnson] was there one time.

[Assistant] Did you meet him?

[User] He talked to us. I guess he shook everybody’s hand, he was a friendly guy.

[Assistant]
He was a hand shaker.

You said Prince Charles came.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] A lot of people showed up when things got exciting I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He talked to us. I guess he shook everybody’s hand, he was a friendly guy.

[Assistant]
He was a hand shaker.

You said Prince Charles came.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] A lot of people showed up when things got exciting I guess.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You became I’m sure very close friends with your coworkers, but also were you close friends with the pilots of those planes that you maintained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] A lot of people showed up when things got exciting I guess.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You became I’m sure very close friends with your coworkers, but also were you close friends with the pilots of those planes that you maintained?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they talk to you sometimes about when they heard something with the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You became I’m sure very close friends with your coworkers, but also were you close friends with the pilots of those planes that you maintained?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they talk to you sometimes about when they heard something with the plane?

[User] Oh yes. After each flight landing we’d sit down by the airplane and they’d tell us what they experienced and what they thought we should look at.

[Assistant] Did you teach them how to listen to different parts of the plane? Did pilots think that they were mechanics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they talk to you sometimes about when they heard something with the plane?

[User] Oh yes. After each flight landing we’d sit down by the airplane and they’d tell us what they experienced and what they thought we should look at.

[Assistant] Did you teach them how to listen to different parts of the plane? Did pilots think that they were mechanics?

[User] Well, most of them were really.

[Assistant]
Sometimes they have that personality where they know, but that’s good that you could talk in the same language, that you knew what they were looking for.

You mentioned that the X-15, you enjoyed that program. Of all the planes that you worked on, which one would you say was your favorite? Would it be the X-15?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. After each flight landing we’d sit down by the airplane and they’d tell us what they experienced and what they thought we should look at.

[Assistant] Did you teach them how to listen to different parts of the plane? Did pilots think that they were mechanics?

[User] Well, most of them were really.

[Assistant]
Sometimes they have that personality where they know, but that’s good that you could talk in the same language, that you knew what they were looking for.

You mentioned that the X-15, you enjoyed that program. Of all the planes that you worked on, which one would you say was your favorite? Would it be the X-15?

[User] Yes. It was the most interesting.

[Assistant] I guess the most ugly would be the LLRV. Was that the most ugly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, most of them were really.

[Assistant]
Sometimes they have that personality where they know, but that’s good that you could talk in the same language, that you knew what they were looking for.

You mentioned that the X-15, you enjoyed that program. Of all the planes that you worked on, which one would you say was your favorite? Would it be the X-15?

[User] Yes. It was the most interesting.

[Assistant] I guess the most ugly would be the LLRV. Was that the most ugly?

[User] Like a bedframe.

[Assistant] Yes, it has no personality, does it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was the most interesting.

[Assistant] I guess the most ugly would be the LLRV. Was that the most ugly?

[User] Like a bedframe.

[Assistant] Yes, it has no personality, does it?

[User] Made a lot of noise, and a lot of dirt.

[Assistant] I understand the astronauts who used it said it was what helped them so much when they were landing, knowing that they had used that research vehicle.\n\n Were there some other thoughts that you might have that you can remember during his career that you’d like to share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like a bedframe.

[Assistant] Yes, it has no personality, does it?

[User] Made a lot of noise, and a lot of dirt.

[Assistant] I understand the astronauts who used it said it was what helped them so much when they were landing, knowing that they had used that research vehicle.\n\n Were there some other thoughts that you might have that you can remember during his career that you’d like to share with us?

[User] Well, he went to college. Even after that he took evening classes and promoted himself on up, able to go on.

[Assistant] Was that here? Was it close to the base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Made a lot of noise, and a lot of dirt.

[Assistant] I understand the astronauts who used it said it was what helped them so much when they were landing, knowing that they had used that research vehicle.\n\n Were there some other thoughts that you might have that you can remember during his career that you’d like to share with us?

[User] Well, he went to college. Even after that he took evening classes and promoted himself on up, able to go on.

[Assistant] Was that here? Was it close to the base?

[User] Lancaster Junior College. Back then I think they gave more, because there wasn’t a four year college there. He took a lot of math, and he took more electronics, because the classes were what he needed. And I think they were giving classes then that they knew they needed. He took advantage of everything he could.

[Assistant] That’s great. And did you all stay in Mojave, or did you all move?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s why we’re here. We can go back and forth, which is really nice.

[Assistant] It is nice, especially when you think about starting out where you did, sweeping dirt out of a bathtub. A lot of sand. Is there some other thoughts that you have about when you were working that you’d like to share with us?

[User]
I think that’s about all the important things I can think about.

When he retired they wanted him to come back to work on a helicopter project. It was really a big thing at the time.

I had other things to do.

He had other things to do. We started building houses and selling one a year. But he had had a bleeding ulcer, and he had a heart problem. That’s why he didn’t go back. But they even called me and asked me to try to talk him into coming back to work. Now, see, Charlie [Charles N.] Baker went back to work after he retired, and a lot of them did, like Terry [J.] Larson was an engineer. But Cecil didn’t. Probably why he’s 88 going on almost 89 now, is he retired when he did, because it was a very stressful job.

[Assistant] I can imagine, and dangerous.

[User] And his heart problem has gone away, and he hasn’t had another ulcer surgery. He’s going on to 89 now.

[Assistant] Enjoy some life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think that’s about all the important things I can think about.

When he retired they wanted him to come back to work on a helicopter project. It was really a big thing at the time.

I had other things to do.

He had other things to do. We started building houses and selling one a year. But he had had a bleeding ulcer, and he had a heart problem. That’s why he didn’t go back. But they even called me and asked me to try to talk him into coming back to work. Now, see, Charlie [Charles N.] Baker went back to work after he retired, and a lot of them did, like Terry [J.] Larson was an engineer. But Cecil didn’t. Probably why he’s 88 going on almost 89 now, is he retired when he did, because it was a very stressful job.

[Assistant] I can imagine, and dangerous.

[User] And his heart problem has gone away, and he hasn’t had another ulcer surgery. He’s going on to 89 now.

[Assistant] Enjoy some life.

[User] Oh, we did. We had a motor home, we traveled to Alaska, Canada, we traveled. After we got our kids educated.

[Assistant] Couldn’t go as fast as that X-15, but you got there, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And his heart problem has gone away, and he hasn’t had another ulcer surgery. He’s going on to 89 now.

[Assistant] Enjoy some life.

[User] Oh, we did. We had a motor home, we traveled to Alaska, Canada, we traveled. After we got our kids educated.

[Assistant] Couldn’t go as fast as that X-15, but you got there, didn’t you?

[User] We had a good life. Of course the people in Kansas, we were the only ones in California. They kept thinking we’d move home, we wouldn’t last three months. We’ve lasted 65 years. We’ve been married that long.

[Assistant] Were you married when you came to California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we did. We had a motor home, we traveled to Alaska, Canada, we traveled. After we got our kids educated.

[Assistant] Couldn’t go as fast as that X-15, but you got there, didn’t you?

[User] We had a good life. Of course the people in Kansas, we were the only ones in California. They kept thinking we’d move home, we wouldn’t last three months. We’ve lasted 65 years. We’ve been married that long.

[Assistant] Were you married when you came to California?

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] Did you have any kids at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a good life. Of course the people in Kansas, we were the only ones in California. They kept thinking we’d move home, we wouldn’t last three months. We’ve lasted 65 years. We’ve been married that long.

[Assistant] Were you married when you came to California?

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] Did you have any kids at that time?

[User] No, no, we were newlyweds, we lived in student housing in San Pedro, California, and Torrance wasn’t very far. And I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. I had been a legal secretary before we got married, and so I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. And then in those days when you got pregnant you didn’t work anymore. They didn’t allow that. It wasn’t long until we had our first one and I had to quit.

[Assistant] It’s interesting you started out in Hawthorne because that’s the home of SpaceX. I find that very interesting that you were there at the Northrop Institute in Hawthorne, and I believe it’s one of Northrop’s old buildings where SpaceX has its home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] Did you have any kids at that time?

[User] No, no, we were newlyweds, we lived in student housing in San Pedro, California, and Torrance wasn’t very far. And I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. I had been a legal secretary before we got married, and so I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. And then in those days when you got pregnant you didn’t work anymore. They didn’t allow that. It wasn’t long until we had our first one and I had to quit.

[Assistant] It’s interesting you started out in Hawthorne because that’s the home of SpaceX. I find that very interesting that you were there at the Northrop Institute in Hawthorne, and I believe it’s one of Northrop’s old buildings where SpaceX has its home.

[User]
There were a number of people that went to school there that went to work for NACA or NASA.

It’s a big school now.

Yes, Joe [Joseph D.] Huxman, he’s passed away now. They lived in Kansas, but they were our neighbors for 30 some years. There were a number of them that went to Northrop that went to work out there. They were all good people. My gosh, they were mostly Second World War [veterans].

[Assistant] Looking for an opportunity, weren’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, we were newlyweds, we lived in student housing in San Pedro, California, and Torrance wasn’t very far. And I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. I had been a legal secretary before we got married, and so I went to work for Pittsburgh Paint. And then in those days when you got pregnant you didn’t work anymore. They didn’t allow that. It wasn’t long until we had our first one and I had to quit.

[Assistant] It’s interesting you started out in Hawthorne because that’s the home of SpaceX. I find that very interesting that you were there at the Northrop Institute in Hawthorne, and I believe it’s one of Northrop’s old buildings where SpaceX has its home.

[User]
There were a number of people that went to school there that went to work for NACA or NASA.

It’s a big school now.

Yes, Joe [Joseph D.] Huxman, he’s passed away now. They lived in Kansas, but they were our neighbors for 30 some years. There were a number of them that went to Northrop that went to work out there. They were all good people. My gosh, they were mostly Second World War [veterans].

[Assistant] Looking for an opportunity, weren’t they?

[User] We were so glad to have a job. It was just some of the wives that came when we were living on the deactivated Marine base—and at that time, the wild burros just roamed between the barracks—and they cried. They didn’t like it. I was just so glad we had a job. I was so glad we had a job that he really liked. That’s very important for your husband to like his job. NACA and NASA was a good thing for us. Very very good thing.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you for sharing those thoughts and memories with us this morning.