[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The script was made up in Houston, it was basically to do with the readings of the landing itself. It sounded very similar, yes, because their readouts, they knew they were going to be getting that type of readouts.

[Assistant] That’s exciting.

[User] Yes, that was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, is there anything that you would say was the most challenging, and what would that be?

[User] I don’t know about most challenging, but I think that the change that has taken place over the length of my career there is pretty phenomenal. When I started at the stations there, everything was manual. You could make the connections manually, you tuned the receivers manually, you did everything manually. Over time, you transition to where it’s full automation now. The commercial stations are running stations that don’t have anybody there. They have somebody on call to do maintenance when something happens, but the operation, it’s all set up by computers and scheduled. It was a total transition from doing everything manually to almost hands-off, where we are today.\n\n The TDRSS is the same way. It’s amazing, the amount of data that’s pushed through that system, and the number of users at the same time. Whereas when you had one pass or five passes a day, you’d say, “Wow, that was a big day!” They do 10 passes consecutively. It’s the technology transition from the way it was to the way it is now. I’m sure it’ll be different in 20 years as well. I think we still would be amazed.

[Assistant] The number of things out there to track now—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, is there anything that you would say was the most challenging, and what would that be?

[User] I don’t know about most challenging, but I think that the change that has taken place over the length of my career there is pretty phenomenal. When I started at the stations there, everything was manual. You could make the connections manually, you tuned the receivers manually, you did everything manually. Over time, you transition to where it’s full automation now. The commercial stations are running stations that don’t have anybody there. They have somebody on call to do maintenance when something happens, but the operation, it’s all set up by computers and scheduled. It was a total transition from doing everything manually to almost hands-off, where we are today.\n\n The TDRSS is the same way. It’s amazing, the amount of data that’s pushed through that system, and the number of users at the same time. Whereas when you had one pass or five passes a day, you’d say, “Wow, that was a big day!” They do 10 passes consecutively. It’s the technology transition from the way it was to the way it is now. I’m sure it’ll be different in 20 years as well. I think we still would be amazed.

[Assistant] The number of things out there to track now—

[User] That’s the other thing, is that we used the airplanes because there was nothing else to use as a test. Then, they did launch what they call the Test and Training Satellites, but that was very crude and not very successful. Now, there are satellites up there that we routinely, if we need to check an antenna, we’ll just track one of them. It went from one mission, like Apollo was a couple of missions a year, to continuous missions now, all the time. [International] Space Station, it’s up there and it’s being tracked every day, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

[Assistant] All types of data and telemetry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know about most challenging, but I think that the change that has taken place over the length of my career there is pretty phenomenal. When I started at the stations there, everything was manual. You could make the connections manually, you tuned the receivers manually, you did everything manually. Over time, you transition to where it’s full automation now. The commercial stations are running stations that don’t have anybody there. They have somebody on call to do maintenance when something happens, but the operation, it’s all set up by computers and scheduled. It was a total transition from doing everything manually to almost hands-off, where we are today.\n\n The TDRSS is the same way. It’s amazing, the amount of data that’s pushed through that system, and the number of users at the same time. Whereas when you had one pass or five passes a day, you’d say, “Wow, that was a big day!” They do 10 passes consecutively. It’s the technology transition from the way it was to the way it is now. I’m sure it’ll be different in 20 years as well. I think we still would be amazed.

[Assistant] The number of things out there to track now—

[User] That’s the other thing, is that we used the airplanes because there was nothing else to use as a test. Then, they did launch what they call the Test and Training Satellites, but that was very crude and not very successful. Now, there are satellites up there that we routinely, if we need to check an antenna, we’ll just track one of them. It went from one mission, like Apollo was a couple of missions a year, to continuous missions now, all the time. [International] Space Station, it’s up there and it’s being tracked every day, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

[Assistant] All types of data and telemetry.

[User] All kinds, yes.

[Assistant] Video, yes, everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the other thing, is that we used the airplanes because there was nothing else to use as a test. Then, they did launch what they call the Test and Training Satellites, but that was very crude and not very successful. Now, there are satellites up there that we routinely, if we need to check an antenna, we’ll just track one of them. It went from one mission, like Apollo was a couple of missions a year, to continuous missions now, all the time. [International] Space Station, it’s up there and it’s being tracked every day, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

[Assistant] All types of data and telemetry.

[User] All kinds, yes.

[Assistant] Video, yes, everything.

[User] They send up faxes; it’s just like being on Earth. The communication’s very solid. When you talk on a phone now with somebody overseas, you don’t know that they’re overseas; they could be next door, for clarity. Technology has come a long ways. The space program, I think, has been a driver for a lot of the technology, medical technology, a lot of computers. The chips, a lot of that stuff was designed because of the weight considerations and reliability that you need for spaceflight is migrated into things that we take for granted.

[Assistant] Right, the telemetry in the medical field and everything else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All kinds, yes.

[Assistant] Video, yes, everything.

[User] They send up faxes; it’s just like being on Earth. The communication’s very solid. When you talk on a phone now with somebody overseas, you don’t know that they’re overseas; they could be next door, for clarity. Technology has come a long ways. The space program, I think, has been a driver for a lot of the technology, medical technology, a lot of computers. The chips, a lot of that stuff was designed because of the weight considerations and reliability that you need for spaceflight is migrated into things that we take for granted.

[Assistant] Right, the telemetry in the medical field and everything else.

[User] Ambulances sending the vital signs by telemetry to the hospital on the way to the hospital, I believe that’s all a fallout of the space program.

[Assistant] I also read that you received a Silver Snoopy [Award]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They send up faxes; it’s just like being on Earth. The communication’s very solid. When you talk on a phone now with somebody overseas, you don’t know that they’re overseas; they could be next door, for clarity. Technology has come a long ways. The space program, I think, has been a driver for a lot of the technology, medical technology, a lot of computers. The chips, a lot of that stuff was designed because of the weight considerations and reliability that you need for spaceflight is migrated into things that we take for granted.

[Assistant] Right, the telemetry in the medical field and everything else.

[User] Ambulances sending the vital signs by telemetry to the hospital on the way to the hospital, I believe that’s all a fallout of the space program.

[Assistant] I also read that you received a Silver Snoopy [Award]?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ambulances sending the vital signs by telemetry to the hospital on the way to the hospital, I believe that’s all a fallout of the space program.

[Assistant] I also read that you received a Silver Snoopy [Award]?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that for?

[User] For all the support we just talked about. John [W.] Young gave it to me, and I had Dan Brandenstein there, since he was my manager at the time. I had two astronauts for the award.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that for?

[User] For all the support we just talked about. John [W.] Young gave it to me, and I had Dan Brandenstein there, since he was my manager at the time. I had two astronauts for the award.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career again, is there anything that you’re most proud of that you had a chance to work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For all the support we just talked about. John [W.] Young gave it to me, and I had Dan Brandenstein there, since he was my manager at the time. I had two astronauts for the award.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career again, is there anything that you’re most proud of that you had a chance to work on?

[User] I think I have to go back to Apollo because that was a very high-level goal that President [John F.] Kennedy said, “In this decade, we’re going to put a man on the Moon.” When you think about it, that was quite a challenge, and it was very successful. When Apollo 11 landed, I said, “Man, now we’ve got to get back.” You can simulate that very well.\n\n I did have a friend of mine that worked for Bendix and he told me a little anecdote about the bolts, the separation bolts, the explosive bolts that were used on the Lunar Module as it took off. There were bolts that were holding it together, and they had to blow those away to lift off. He worked in quality control and he spent a lot of time out at White Sands testing ground, blowing these bolts from different lots and numbers, and he said they never had one fail. Fortunately, they never had one fail when they had them on the Moon. There was a lot of testing. That’s just one part of a very complex system, but all it would have taken would be one bolt not to blow and the whole thing would have—there’s a pretty amazing accomplishment.

[Assistant] In a very short period of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career again, is there anything that you’re most proud of that you had a chance to work on?

[User] I think I have to go back to Apollo because that was a very high-level goal that President [John F.] Kennedy said, “In this decade, we’re going to put a man on the Moon.” When you think about it, that was quite a challenge, and it was very successful. When Apollo 11 landed, I said, “Man, now we’ve got to get back.” You can simulate that very well.\n\n I did have a friend of mine that worked for Bendix and he told me a little anecdote about the bolts, the separation bolts, the explosive bolts that were used on the Lunar Module as it took off. There were bolts that were holding it together, and they had to blow those away to lift off. He worked in quality control and he spent a lot of time out at White Sands testing ground, blowing these bolts from different lots and numbers, and he said they never had one fail. Fortunately, they never had one fail when they had them on the Moon. There was a lot of testing. That’s just one part of a very complex system, but all it would have taken would be one bolt not to blow and the whole thing would have—there’s a pretty amazing accomplishment.

[Assistant] In a very short period of time.

[User] In a very short period of time.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Rebecca, and see if she had anything.

I was wondering if you could share with us some of the projects you’re working on now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, I’m basically managing the commercial contracts there, so every year, we determine what spacecraft we’re going to be flying and how much support we need, and then I translate that into contracts with the commercial providers. We have a weekly meeting where we literally go around the world somewhat to discuss the last week’s activities and what’s coming up.\n\n I call it the Inquisition, and essentially, we go in sequence where we start off in Norway because of the time difference. When it’s early in the morning here, it’s late in the afternoon there, and then we go to Chile, which is pretty much on our timeframe, then we go to USN, which is the company that does the Alaska, Hawaii, and Australia, but it’s controlled out of Horsham, Pennsylvania, so there’s your remote, where everything was done manually. They have people sitting in Pennsylvania that basically control the station in Australia, the station in Hawaii, the stations up in Alaska. Then, we go to Alaska, which is the University of Alaska has a station up there and they participate in this, and then Wallops Island is on the eastern shore here.\n\n We go around all those stations and basically talk about any problems that we had or anything coming up that needs their attention. That’s part of my job, is just to get the services and make sure that the services are provided on time, accurately, and within affordable limits.

[Assistant] You mentioned about having government customers. Now we have up-and-coming American launch services. Are you involved with the commercial launch services like SpaceX and Orbital Sciences [Corporation] and the new Mid-Atlantic Regional Spaceport [MARS]?

[User] No, but some of our people here are because of Wallops.

[Assistant] MARS?

[User] MARS, yes. SpaceX uses TDRSS once they launch, going to the Station. No, we’re not involved with them directly, but we still support SpaceX and will be supporting the Cygnus once it launches out of Wallops, there, with TDRSS.

[Assistant] Your repertoire continues to grow, doesn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but some of our people here are because of Wallops.

[Assistant] MARS?

[User] MARS, yes. SpaceX uses TDRSS once they launch, going to the Station. No, we’re not involved with them directly, but we still support SpaceX and will be supporting the Cygnus once it launches out of Wallops, there, with TDRSS.

[Assistant] Your repertoire continues to grow, doesn’t it?

[User] It does, yes, but when I talk about commercialization, in my world, it’s the ground stations, but there’s commercialization now, as you mentioned, the SpaceX and the Orbital Sciences is moving into the launch vehicle commercialization.

[Assistant] This sounds like a simple question, and it might be. Are a spacecraft and a satellite the same challenge in tracking, or are there different issues depending on what kind of vehicle or item has launched?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] MARS, yes. SpaceX uses TDRSS once they launch, going to the Station. No, we’re not involved with them directly, but we still support SpaceX and will be supporting the Cygnus once it launches out of Wallops, there, with TDRSS.

[Assistant] Your repertoire continues to grow, doesn’t it?

[User] It does, yes, but when I talk about commercialization, in my world, it’s the ground stations, but there’s commercialization now, as you mentioned, the SpaceX and the Orbital Sciences is moving into the launch vehicle commercialization.

[Assistant] This sounds like a simple question, and it might be. Are a spacecraft and a satellite the same challenge in tracking, or are there different issues depending on what kind of vehicle or item has launched?

[User] Basically, it’s the same because you’re dealing with signals but there’s usually a higher complexity with the manned missions because you have more signals. You have the separate voice transmitters, you have telemetry, usually maybe a couple different telemetry transponders, but generally no, it’s tracking a satellite or tracking a capsule, the tracking part is the same. It’s just how much information or how you have to process that information on the ground, it gets more complex with the manned missions and some of the higher satellites, like Hubble. Hubble is large amounts of data, so you have to deal with volume.

[Assistant]
I was just curious. Of course, you have that human factor that can fiddle with things that can make your job a little difficult. Thank you.

Was there anything we haven’t talked about, or any highlights, or any memorable moments that you’d like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It does, yes, but when I talk about commercialization, in my world, it’s the ground stations, but there’s commercialization now, as you mentioned, the SpaceX and the Orbital Sciences is moving into the launch vehicle commercialization.

[Assistant] This sounds like a simple question, and it might be. Are a spacecraft and a satellite the same challenge in tracking, or are there different issues depending on what kind of vehicle or item has launched?

[User] Basically, it’s the same because you’re dealing with signals but there’s usually a higher complexity with the manned missions because you have more signals. You have the separate voice transmitters, you have telemetry, usually maybe a couple different telemetry transponders, but generally no, it’s tracking a satellite or tracking a capsule, the tracking part is the same. It’s just how much information or how you have to process that information on the ground, it gets more complex with the manned missions and some of the higher satellites, like Hubble. Hubble is large amounts of data, so you have to deal with volume.

[Assistant]
I was just curious. Of course, you have that human factor that can fiddle with things that can make your job a little difficult. Thank you.

Was there anything we haven’t talked about, or any highlights, or any memorable moments that you’d like to mention?

[User] No, all I can say is that it’s been a very exciting career and I feel very fortunate, being part of this part of the NASA history that has changed the world a lot.

[Assistant] You’ve had a 40-year career so far with it, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the Navy ROTC in college and took a commission in the Marine Corps. Went through officer basic school and from there went into flight training and served a tour in … [a] Marine fighter squadron. And when I got out of the Marines, or got off of active duty, I went to work for a company in Dallas called Temco [Aircraft Corporation]. And they were making—they had three contracts. One was a trainer for the Navy, a basic trainer, one was a target drone and the other one was an air-to-surface missile.

[Assistant] That was it, a small company?

[User] Yeah, it was a small company but that was—they had a lot going but all three of those—none of those three ever got into a production contract. They all flew through flight test phases and then that was it. But anyway from there I went to work for Martin in Baltimore. And that was one of those kind of career things, … [I] went up there for a specific job and when I got there they had reorganized. And the guy that I was going to work for didn’t get the department that he was planning to start but he found me a very good job … doing reentry trajectory analysis.

[Assistant] For which program?

[User] Well it was a general study. Kind of a basic parametric study of the effects of different things, lift and drag ratios and entry angle on trajectory results. And so I got to do a lot of that. … [There] wasn’t anything available on that at the time and with a computer program you could do these things. Vary the parameters and see what happened.

[Assistant] What kind of code were y’all running?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was a small company but that was—they had a lot going but all three of those—none of those three ever got into a production contract. They all flew through flight test phases and then that was it. But anyway from there I went to work for Martin in Baltimore. And that was one of those kind of career things, … [I] went up there for a specific job and when I got there they had reorganized. And the guy that I was going to work for didn’t get the department that he was planning to start but he found me a very good job … doing reentry trajectory analysis.

[Assistant] For which program?

[User] Well it was a general study. Kind of a basic parametric study of the effects of different things, lift and drag ratios and entry angle on trajectory results. And so I got to do a lot of that. … [There] wasn’t anything available on that at the time and with a computer program you could do these things. Vary the parameters and see what happened.

[Assistant] What kind of code were y’all running?

[User] Oh boy, I don’t remember. Well, it was machine language.

[Assistant] It was all machine language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it was a general study. Kind of a basic parametric study of the effects of different things, lift and drag ratios and entry angle on trajectory results. And so I got to do a lot of that. … [There] wasn’t anything available on that at the time and with a computer program you could do these things. Vary the parameters and see what happened.

[Assistant] What kind of code were y’all running?

[User] Oh boy, I don’t remember. Well, it was machine language.

[Assistant] It was all machine language?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Yes, ones and zeros. But that evolved into working the Apollo study program. We won a contract to do an Apollo study phase. … [I spent] a couple of years working that … [but then Martin] didn’t get selected to build Apollo. And some other things were happening there and I just found it incredible that people really thought they were going to go to the Moon, but it was fun working on it. And then when NASA actually awarded a contract and said that they were really going to do this, I decided that I really wanted to work on that, so I left there and came to work down here for JSC.

[Assistant] And that was in ’62.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh boy, I don’t remember. Well, it was machine language.

[Assistant] It was all machine language?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Yes, ones and zeros. But that evolved into working the Apollo study program. We won a contract to do an Apollo study phase. … [I spent] a couple of years working that … [but then Martin] didn’t get selected to build Apollo. And some other things were happening there and I just found it incredible that people really thought they were going to go to the Moon, but it was fun working on it. And then when NASA actually awarded a contract and said that they were really going to do this, I decided that I really wanted to work on that, so I left there and came to work down here for JSC.

[Assistant] And that was in ’62.

[User] ’62, right.

[Assistant] When they first started JSC. How did you get—most of the people we’ve talk to were in the Space Task Group, you know, under [Robert R.] Gilruth at Langley and they moved here. How did you get into the program? Did they put out a call?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ’62, right.

[Assistant] When they first started JSC. How did you get—most of the people we’ve talk to were in the Space Task Group, you know, under [Robert R.] Gilruth at Langley and they moved here. How did you get into the program? Did they put out a call?

[User] Yeah, they were recruiting people right and left. And having worked the study contract, I had a lot of experience doing reentry trajectory analysis. And we had worked the Apollo proposals so we knew all about the mechanics, the flight mechanics problems. And work on that was just experience they really wanted so it was no problem at all getting a job offer. In fact, I started out as a section head. They hired me as a section head for Reentry Study section.

[Assistant] Mission planning.

[User] Mission planning, right. Morris Jenkins was the branch chief. He did a little bit of reorganizing after I got here and I was actually working the head of two sections for a while. One of them was the Guidance and Control Section and the other one was Reentry Studies. I got a fellow I knew from Martin to come down, Claude Graves, to come down and … [work] the Reentry Section. So he came and took that over and I just worked the guidance stuff.

[Assistant] And where were y’all then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mission planning, right. Morris Jenkins was the branch chief. He did a little bit of reorganizing after I got here and I was actually working the head of two sections for a while. One of them was the Guidance and Control Section and the other one was Reentry Studies. I got a fellow I knew from Martin to come down, Claude Graves, to come down and … [work] the Reentry Section. So he came and took that over and I just worked the guidance stuff.

[Assistant] And where were y’all then?

[User] We were in—they called it the Houston Petroleum Center. It was … [an] office … [building complex] on Gulf Freeway. They had a fake oil derrick out in front of it… You know where Oshman’s warehouse is?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was right next to that. In fact some of the flight control people, John Llewelyn in particular was one, … [were] in that Oshman warehouse. NASA had offices in there. But that was really, really good, interesting fun working back in those days because you were doing trajectory studies and guidance studies … [for which] there was no precedence (that we were aware of anyway). So you did a lot of … [creative thinking]. You did a lot of analysis and then … [developed] computer program[s] that would be a good simulation of it. And if you had confidence that it was a good simulation then you would run a bunch of further analysis and do things, trial and error, a lot of stuff on the computer, until you got something that seemed to work right. [This was the tool we used for planning Apollo mission flight paths (trajectories). We developed that from "scratch."]

[Assistant] So what was the first thing—what system did you first do any trajectory analysis on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in—they called it the Houston Petroleum Center. It was … [an] office … [building complex] on Gulf Freeway. They had a fake oil derrick out in front of it… You know where Oshman’s warehouse is?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was right next to that. In fact some of the flight control people, John Llewelyn in particular was one, … [were] in that Oshman warehouse. NASA had offices in there. But that was really, really good, interesting fun working back in those days because you were doing trajectory studies and guidance studies … [for which] there was no precedence (that we were aware of anyway). So you did a lot of … [creative thinking]. You did a lot of analysis and then … [developed] computer program[s] that would be a good simulation of it. And if you had confidence that it was a good simulation then you would run a bunch of further analysis and do things, trial and error, a lot of stuff on the computer, until you got something that seemed to work right. [This was the tool we used for planning Apollo mission flight paths (trajectories). We developed that from "scratch."]

[Assistant] So what was the first thing—what system did you first do any trajectory analysis on?

[User] The Gemini.

[Assistant] On Gemini. You did work on the Gemini reentry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was right next to that. In fact some of the flight control people, John Llewelyn in particular was one, … [were] in that Oshman warehouse. NASA had offices in there. But that was really, really good, interesting fun working back in those days because you were doing trajectory studies and guidance studies … [for which] there was no precedence (that we were aware of anyway). So you did a lot of … [creative thinking]. You did a lot of analysis and then … [developed] computer program[s] that would be a good simulation of it. And if you had confidence that it was a good simulation then you would run a bunch of further analysis and do things, trial and error, a lot of stuff on the computer, until you got something that seemed to work right. [This was the tool we used for planning Apollo mission flight paths (trajectories). We developed that from "scratch."]

[Assistant] So what was the first thing—what system did you first do any trajectory analysis on?

[User] The Gemini.

[Assistant] On Gemini. You did work on the Gemini reentry?

[User] Yeah, yeah, they were still flying Mercury but I wasn’t working it at all. That was, let’s see, [L. Gordon] Cooper was [the last mission]—I think [Walter M. Schirra, Jr.] Schirra’s flight was in that time frame too. I think they were still doing two or three of the Mercury flights. But I wasn’t involved in that. Morris Jenkins’ branch was not involved in that at all.

[Assistant] How did y’all interact with [Maxime A.] Faget’s design team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I remember being bothered by it. That you felt like you were spending a lot of time trying to see if the other guy’s idea really had a hole in it that you could move him out of the way and get your approach across.

[Assistant] Did you work with the docking missions too, for Gemini?

[User] Yeah, but we weren’t the main stream part of that. Ed [Edgar C.] Lineberry and … [his branch] were the ones that really did the rendezvous and the terminal part of rendezvous, the proximity ops and things. But they were focused on that and really worked that out during the Gemini part of the program.

[Assistant] So when did y’all move onto the Apollo piece.

[User] Well we started, with Morris Jenkins, we started Apollo, … in ’62. Most of our effort was on Apollo. And really the only Gemini effort was reentry and that was because they had a lifting component on the Gemini [entry vehicle]. They didn’t on Mercury. And the guys that were running Mercury, Carl [R.] Huss and … [the] Flight Analysis Branch, … were doing all the Mercury work and they had no experience with the lifting body … [trajectories]. And so Morris’ people got involved in doing the Gemini reentry … [analysis and planning]. And there was, within John Mayor’s division, there were people competing for an area to work in between Carl Huss’ guys and Morris Jenkins reentry people. In that case, Morris’ reentry folks eventually took over that whole job because of the ability they had to do the lifting body analysis.

[Assistant] What did you see as the biggest problem with the—if you’re looking at Gemini and the reentry, what did you see as the biggest issues you guys faced?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but we weren’t the main stream part of that. Ed [Edgar C.] Lineberry and … [his branch] were the ones that really did the rendezvous and the terminal part of rendezvous, the proximity ops and things. But they were focused on that and really worked that out during the Gemini part of the program.

[Assistant] So when did y’all move onto the Apollo piece.

[User] Well we started, with Morris Jenkins, we started Apollo, … in ’62. Most of our effort was on Apollo. And really the only Gemini effort was reentry and that was because they had a lifting component on the Gemini [entry vehicle]. They didn’t on Mercury. And the guys that were running Mercury, Carl [R.] Huss and … [the] Flight Analysis Branch, … were doing all the Mercury work and they had no experience with the lifting body … [trajectories]. And so Morris’ people got involved in doing the Gemini reentry … [analysis and planning]. And there was, within John Mayor’s division, there were people competing for an area to work in between Carl Huss’ guys and Morris Jenkins reentry people. In that case, Morris’ reentry folks eventually took over that whole job because of the ability they had to do the lifting body analysis.

[Assistant] What did you see as the biggest problem with the—if you’re looking at Gemini and the reentry, what did you see as the biggest issues you guys faced?

[User] Well, I don’t think it was—I don’t recall it being any big technical issue. You just couldn’t miss the ship that much because you didn’t have that big of a maneuver envelope. And as long as you did the de-orbit maneuver in a reasonably good fashion, the lifting maneuvering stuff was just kind of like tweaking the thing a little bit. So …, I don’t really remember a big entry problem with Gemini. It wasn’t that big a deal.

[Assistant] And you worked on Apollo simultaneously?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were y’all surprised when they?

[User] I was surprised. I was a little apprehensive about it but … [we were] going to have to do it sometime. The first time, it had to happen. By that time, I had left the Mission Analysis and was over working my way up through the Flight Directorate Branch. [I] [w]as really disappointed I didn’t get put on that mission [as a Flight Director]. Really was. … [I'd] been working that trajectory for two years [in Mission Planning, I thought]. I’m the perfect guy to get put on that, but it didn’t happen.

[Assistant] When ya’ll designed the trajectory to go to the Moon, you hear a lot about the Earth orbit rendezvous versus Lunar orbit rendezvous discussion?

[User] Yeah, that was going on when I came here in ’62. I mean it had been going on for a good while and I really don’t remember if it got resolved just before I got here or shortly after I got here, but I wasn’t involved in that tradeoff. That was a big decision to go that way and it worked fine.

[Assistant] Did you work on the LEM [lunar excursion module] trajectories, as well, and finding the descent stage—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in that the operation folks made inputs into that. We didn’t build it or we didn’t say this is the way it’s going to be. We’d make inputs into what we wanted, what we thought it ought to be.

[Assistant] So when did you actually leave MPAD [Missions Planning and Analysis Division] and go into the Flight Directors Office?

[User] I believe it was in ’68. It was … I remember being in a MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room] as an observer [(a flight director trainee) during] … the Saturn flight that Glynn [S.]Lunney was the flight director on. And we had really serious trouble with one of the [Saturn] stage’s engines, … [he] couldn’t tell whether it was burning or not. And I was sitting there, sympathizing with Glynn, as he was trying to get this situation resolved. He was just about to go LOS [loss of signal]and I remember thinking and watching him work that and thinking, “Boy, that’s tough.” Because it was the difference of whether there was a successful mission or [a] failure. And that was … we were flying Apollo missions but it was an unmanned flight. I believe that was ’68, might have been ’67, I’m not sure.

[Assistant] So which mission did you work on? You were flight director on 12.

[User] Yeah, my first mission was Apollo 9. [Eugene F.] Kranz was the lead flight director on that and it was the first Lunar Module Mission, Earth orbit. I had one … [team] on 9, I had a … [team] on 10, did not have a … [team] on Apollo 11, … [had a team on] 12, did not have a shift on 13 and then 14, I was the prime flight director for 14, and then 16 and 17.

[Assistant] What shift did you work on 12?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe it was in ’68. It was … I remember being in a MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room] as an observer [(a flight director trainee) during] … the Saturn flight that Glynn [S.]Lunney was the flight director on. And we had really serious trouble with one of the [Saturn] stage’s engines, … [he] couldn’t tell whether it was burning or not. And I was sitting there, sympathizing with Glynn, as he was trying to get this situation resolved. He was just about to go LOS [loss of signal]and I remember thinking and watching him work that and thinking, “Boy, that’s tough.” Because it was the difference of whether there was a successful mission or [a] failure. And that was … we were flying Apollo missions but it was an unmanned flight. I believe that was ’68, might have been ’67, I’m not sure.

[Assistant] So which mission did you work on? You were flight director on 12.

[User] Yeah, my first mission was Apollo 9. [Eugene F.] Kranz was the lead flight director on that and it was the first Lunar Module Mission, Earth orbit. I had one … [team] on 9, I had a … [team] on 10, did not have a … [team] on Apollo 11, … [had a team on] 12, did not have a shift on 13 and then 14, I was the prime flight director for 14, and then 16 and 17.

[Assistant] What shift did you work on 12?

[User] I know I worked the reentry shift but I’m trying to think if there was [any other big activity for my team]. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Were you there during the lightening strike?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my first mission was Apollo 9. [Eugene F.] Kranz was the lead flight director on that and it was the first Lunar Module Mission, Earth orbit. I had one … [team] on 9, I had a … [team] on 10, did not have a … [team] on Apollo 11, … [had a team on] 12, did not have a shift on 13 and then 14, I was the prime flight director for 14, and then 16 and 17.

[Assistant] What shift did you work on 12?

[User] I know I worked the reentry shift but I’m trying to think if there was [any other big activity for my team]. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Were you there during the lightening strike?

[User] No, no, Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin was … [the launch flight director].

[Assistant] Did that change the flight plan at all as a result of that, you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know I worked the reentry shift but I’m trying to think if there was [any other big activity for my team]. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Were you there during the lightening strike?

[User] No, no, Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin was … [the launch flight director].

[Assistant] Did that change the flight plan at all as a result of that, you think?

[User] Only [in earth orbit]—I don’t … [remember] if they spent … [one] extra rev or two in Earth orbit... I know there was a lot of reevaluation of systems to make sure they hadn’t been damaged. They got things back on and running [during the launch but had to do evaluations in order to see if] … we [had] hurt them some way. We probably spent an extra orbit or two doing that. We had a window that you could [use], if you didn’t get out on the [first] orbit that you wanted, you could come back around and try … [the next] one.

[Assistant] Even though you weren’t assigned during 13, after the explosion, did you have a function?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin was … [the launch flight director].

[Assistant] Did that change the flight plan at all as a result of that, you think?

[User] Only [in earth orbit]—I don’t … [remember] if they spent … [one] extra rev or two in Earth orbit... I know there was a lot of reevaluation of systems to make sure they hadn’t been damaged. They got things back on and running [during the launch but had to do evaluations in order to see if] … we [had] hurt them some way. We probably spent an extra orbit or two doing that. We had a window that you could [use], if you didn’t get out on the [first] orbit that you wanted, you could come back around and try … [the next] one.

[Assistant] Even though you weren’t assigned during 13, after the explosion, did you have a function?

[User] Oh, yeah, everybody did.

[Assistant] I figured you did. What was your function after this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only [in earth orbit]—I don’t … [remember] if they spent … [one] extra rev or two in Earth orbit... I know there was a lot of reevaluation of systems to make sure they hadn’t been damaged. They got things back on and running [during the launch but had to do evaluations in order to see if] … we [had] hurt them some way. We probably spent an extra orbit or two doing that. We had a window that you could [use], if you didn’t get out on the [first] orbit that you wanted, you could come back around and try … [the next] one.

[Assistant] Even though you weren’t assigned during 13, after the explosion, did you have a function?

[User] Oh, yeah, everybody did.

[Assistant] I figured you did. What was your function after this?

[User] Well, off line, we were working with the EECOMs [Electrical and Environmental Command Officers] and everybody trying to get the power requirements down to nothing. And also looking [at how to get them home]—I remember working with flight dynamics guys trying to decide whether to [do an immediate turn around and come back to earth]— We were getting data relative to doing a [direct] turn around or going … [around] the Moon. [We were] [t]rying to get enough information together to decide that, but … [the answer] was really based on the system’s concern more than trajectory. Even … [though] you could have saved a whole lot of time by coming back directly, we probably wouldn’t have tried it because of the concern about what would happen if you … [fired up the SPS] engine.

[Assistant] So when you worked 14, you were the lead flight director after 13, did you think that had a lot more pressure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, everybody did.

[Assistant] I figured you did. What was your function after this?

[User] Well, off line, we were working with the EECOMs [Electrical and Environmental Command Officers] and everybody trying to get the power requirements down to nothing. And also looking [at how to get them home]—I remember working with flight dynamics guys trying to decide whether to [do an immediate turn around and come back to earth]— We were getting data relative to doing a [direct] turn around or going … [around] the Moon. [We were] [t]rying to get enough information together to decide that, but … [the answer] was really based on the system’s concern more than trajectory. Even … [though] you could have saved a whole lot of time by coming back directly, we probably wouldn’t have tried it because of the concern about what would happen if you … [fired up the SPS] engine.

[Assistant] So when you worked 14, you were the lead flight director after 13, did you think that had a lot more pressure?

[User] I’m sure we did. I know that there was a lot more media involvement that time then there was on the beginning of 13. Although I don’t really remember the details, I’m sure that we were all a lot more alert all during the trans-lunar coast phase. I mean, we had it demonstrated [to us]that things could happen at any time. And truly by 13, the trans-lunar coast was kind of a phase you just had to get through. You just sort of went into power-down mode while you [coasted along]—waiting till you got to the Moon. … [Apollo 13] showed that you couldn’t relax … [anywhere].

[Assistant] After the … when the program got canceled after 17, how did that effect the people you worked with and the morale?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think they thought that we probably were spying on them or listening to what they had to say. We were having a meeting in my office one time and there were several of them there and we were discussing something… [T]here was a noise in the ceiling and they all looked like … [they thought] somebody['s] eavesdropping in a real crude fashion. And I don’t know [what it was], it was something in the ducting that made some noise and I know damn well that’s what they thought that we were somehow secretly recording what was going on. But that wouldn’t have made sense because there wasn’t anything going on that they would be ashamed of or they couldn’t live with. But they just tolerated the KGB guys. They had no choice and so they had learned to just live with that and go on about and do your job and try not to let them slow you down too much.

[Assistant] What did you do during Skylab?

[User] Not much. By that time … I guess when it started, I was the head of the Flight Director Office. And I didn’t work on the console on Skylab. And toward the end of that, I also became the Flight Control Division Chief, so I didn’t work on the console during Skylab. I kept … my biggest problem with Skylab was keeping Putty [Don L. Putt] and Neil Hutchinson apart.

[Assistant] I can understand that.

[User] … [There] was—I thought one time those two guys were going to have a fight in the MOCR.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you, you mentioned keeping people, during trans-lunar coast, keeping the people motivated, not motivated, but alert.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much. By that time … I guess when it started, I was the head of the Flight Director Office. And I didn’t work on the console on Skylab. And toward the end of that, I also became the Flight Control Division Chief, so I didn’t work on the console during Skylab. I kept … my biggest problem with Skylab was keeping Putty [Don L. Putt] and Neil Hutchinson apart.

[Assistant] I can understand that.

[User] … [There] was—I thought one time those two guys were going to have a fight in the MOCR.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you, you mentioned keeping people, during trans-lunar coast, keeping the people motivated, not motivated, but alert.

[User] Alert, yes.

[Assistant] I was thinking about Skylab needs especially …


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … [There] was—I thought one time those two guys were going to have a fight in the MOCR.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you, you mentioned keeping people, during trans-lunar coast, keeping the people motivated, not motivated, but alert.

[User] Alert, yes.

[Assistant] I was thinking about Skylab needs especially …

[User] Yes, Skylab. We were concerned about it before we got into it. You know, we thought that was something to really be concerned about and so there was a lot of emphasis put on that to try to look out for it and keep it from happening. But you know, it was such an intense period of planning, that there was a lot of activity going on in the Control Center trying to keep every minute of every day useful onboard. That helped a lot but there was still a lot of periods where it was just really, really boring in the Control Center. And you saw all kinds of peripheral things involved during those missions. People spend a lot of time working on some screen image, it was almost like an entertainment kind of thing. They would put some big image up on the big screens up there. It had very little to do with the mission.

[Assistant] You went to Flight Control Division in what, ’74?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Alert, yes.

[Assistant] I was thinking about Skylab needs especially …

[User] Yes, Skylab. We were concerned about it before we got into it. You know, we thought that was something to really be concerned about and so there was a lot of emphasis put on that to try to look out for it and keep it from happening. But you know, it was such an intense period of planning, that there was a lot of activity going on in the Control Center trying to keep every minute of every day useful onboard. That helped a lot but there was still a lot of periods where it was just really, really boring in the Control Center. And you saw all kinds of peripheral things involved during those missions. People spend a lot of time working on some screen image, it was almost like an entertainment kind of thing. They would put some big image up on the big screens up there. It had very little to do with the mission.

[Assistant] You went to Flight Control Division in what, ’74?

[User] I’m sorry?

[Assistant] When did you move to Flight Control Division?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Skylab. We were concerned about it before we got into it. You know, we thought that was something to really be concerned about and so there was a lot of emphasis put on that to try to look out for it and keep it from happening. But you know, it was such an intense period of planning, that there was a lot of activity going on in the Control Center trying to keep every minute of every day useful onboard. That helped a lot but there was still a lot of periods where it was just really, really boring in the Control Center. And you saw all kinds of peripheral things involved during those missions. People spend a lot of time working on some screen image, it was almost like an entertainment kind of thing. They would put some big image up on the big screens up there. It had very little to do with the mission.

[Assistant] You went to Flight Control Division in what, ’74?

[User] I’m sorry?

[Assistant] When did you move to Flight Control Division?

[User] ’74, yes. Let’s see, the ASTP was in ’75. That was the flight, it was started about three years ahead of that.

[Assistant] Were they working on Shuttle when you moved into that position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sorry?

[Assistant] When did you move to Flight Control Division?

[User] ’74, yes. Let’s see, the ASTP was in ’75. That was the flight, it was started about three years ahead of that.

[Assistant] Were they working on Shuttle when you moved into that position.

[User] Yes... In fact they were working Shuttle, some of the Shuttle analysis anyway … [T]hat was going on before we moved over to building 4. I remember some—Carl Huss and folks looking at aborts off of the Shuttle launch. Yea, that’s a whole other problem.

[Assistant] Being Flight Control Division lead, included in the Shuttle was the idea of the partially reusable spacecraft, how did that affect the flight control aspects of the missions, where part of the spacecraft came back and you used it again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was close to where my girlfriend lived. [Laughter] I had majored in mathematics and minored in physics, … after I was discharged from service and I came back to school at William and Mary, I asked a counselor what program could I take and graduate soonest, and they said mathematics. So, mathematics.\n\n Later on, the placement bureau told me there was an opening for mathematics majors at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] at Langley. So I went down and went to work there. That's how I happened to be there. I'd never built any model airplanes or dreamed of the Wright Brothers or any of those things. Like I say, my girlfriend lived in Williamsburg [Virginia].

[Assistant] Definitely an incentive.

[User] I went to work on my twentieth birthday. That's how I remember when I started work…

[Assistant] So you began working in the Pilotless Aircraft Division [PARD]?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't begin there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to work on my twentieth birthday. That's how I remember when I started work…

[Assistant] So you began working in the Pilotless Aircraft Division [PARD]?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't begin there?

[User] I began in the Stability Research Division [in] a small section that did theoretical work. That's where the mathematics came from, and I worked there for about a year. Then I transferred to the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, and the circumstances of the transfer we won't go into. That's another story. But it doesn't have anything to do with this oral history here.

[Assistant] Okay. That's fine. And then you began working in the Pilotless Aircraft Division. What did you do there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You didn't begin there?

[User] I began in the Stability Research Division [in] a small section that did theoretical work. That's where the mathematics came from, and I worked there for about a year. Then I transferred to the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, and the circumstances of the transfer we won't go into. That's another story. But it doesn't have anything to do with this oral history here.

[Assistant] Okay. That's fine. And then you began working in the Pilotless Aircraft Division. What did you do there?

[User] Well, for probably the first year I continued the type of analytical or theoretical work I had done in the Stability Division. Then one day a fellow named [Carl A.] Sandahl came in and said, "Hey, would you like to do some experimental work with the rockets?" I said yes, and the fellow I was working for said, "Okay, if you want to," and so I moved from doing theoretical work with my pencil and integral tables and started doing experimental work. It just happened. I was offered the opportunity, and I knew I was not the greatest mathematician in the world, I was not going to make a mark in mathematics, and the experimental work seemed a lot more exciting and interesting. So I went to shoot rockets.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy shooting the rockets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for probably the first year I continued the type of analytical or theoretical work I had done in the Stability Division. Then one day a fellow named [Carl A.] Sandahl came in and said, "Hey, would you like to do some experimental work with the rockets?" I said yes, and the fellow I was working for said, "Okay, if you want to," and so I moved from doing theoretical work with my pencil and integral tables and started doing experimental work. It just happened. I was offered the opportunity, and I knew I was not the greatest mathematician in the world, I was not going to make a mark in mathematics, and the experimental work seemed a lot more exciting and interesting. So I went to shoot rockets.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy shooting the rockets?

[User] Very much so. It was the most interesting part of my total career, absolutely.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] So what parts of the rocket work did you enjoy specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much so. It was the most interesting part of my total career, absolutely.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] So what parts of the rocket work did you enjoy specifically?

[User] Well, there was a number of projects. At that time the ballistic missile projects were under way, and there was a need for information at very high speeds and very high temperatures, and we were trying to achieve those high speeds by stacking rockets, essentially, staging them. We didn't have huge rockets like we have today. In fact, most of the rockets we got were leftovers from the Army and Navy, and what we would do was not use them as they did, but we would stack them on top of one another, each one adding more speed. So for a number of years there we worked diligently at seeing how fast we could go and therefore make measurements at the higher speeds.\n\n Also, we did other work related to the shapes of ballistic missiles. Ballistic missiles started out—people thought they might be streamlined and long and sharp, and then as people studied and learned, they finally decided that [a] very blunt nose like Apollo was the way you were probably going to have to go in order to handle this heating problem.\n\n But anyway, developing and building these rockets, I think we finally got up to five stages of rockets, and these we launched from up at Wallop's Island off the Virginia coast. We had some considerable success in that area, and there's no question that that certainly contributed or was an underpinning to the work that many of us later did in the space program. That was the basics. So I stayed there for—I was with NACA ten years total.

[Assistant] And while you were there working on rockets, Sputnik launched, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] So what parts of the rocket work did you enjoy specifically?

[User] Well, there was a number of projects. At that time the ballistic missile projects were under way, and there was a need for information at very high speeds and very high temperatures, and we were trying to achieve those high speeds by stacking rockets, essentially, staging them. We didn't have huge rockets like we have today. In fact, most of the rockets we got were leftovers from the Army and Navy, and what we would do was not use them as they did, but we would stack them on top of one another, each one adding more speed. So for a number of years there we worked diligently at seeing how fast we could go and therefore make measurements at the higher speeds.\n\n Also, we did other work related to the shapes of ballistic missiles. Ballistic missiles started out—people thought they might be streamlined and long and sharp, and then as people studied and learned, they finally decided that [a] very blunt nose like Apollo was the way you were probably going to have to go in order to handle this heating problem.\n\n But anyway, developing and building these rockets, I think we finally got up to five stages of rockets, and these we launched from up at Wallop's Island off the Virginia coast. We had some considerable success in that area, and there's no question that that certainly contributed or was an underpinning to the work that many of us later did in the space program. That was the basics. So I stayed there for—I was with NACA ten years total.

[Assistant] And while you were there working on rockets, Sputnik launched, right?

[User] Yes. What was that, October '57, I believe. Yes. I was there … and it was pretty interesting. I thought that was great.

[Assistant] So the people you were working with, was that of any special interest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. What was that, October '57, I believe. Yes. I was there … and it was pretty interesting. I thought that was great.

[Assistant] So the people you were working with, was that of any special interest?

[User] Oh, yes. It was of particular interest, because, you know, the U.S. had a satellite program. Our interest, frankly, as far as our work goes, was more related to supporting the ballistic missile program, which operated in the same speeds and had many of the same type of technical problems, reentering the atmosphere and so forth. So our work was more directed towards the ballistic missile program, but technically there was great overlap. So we had a technical and professional interest in that.

[Assistant] In March, the next year, you were chosen to be an assistant to Dr. James [R.] Killian [Special Assistant to the President for Science and Technology].

[User] Yes. … Dr. Killian requested NACA to provide him with a technical assistant …, to support him in things related to space and missiles, so I was transferred from NACA to his office in March. Now that you remind me, it was March. Because I got up there, and it was the middle of a snowstorm. That's how I remember. I got to Washington at ten o'clock at night and didn't really know where I was, on a train—you remember trains—and it was snowing like the dickens. You couldn't get a taxicab. So that was the beginning of my career in Washington.

[Assistant] Did you volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. It was of particular interest, because, you know, the U.S. had a satellite program. Our interest, frankly, as far as our work goes, was more related to supporting the ballistic missile program, which operated in the same speeds and had many of the same type of technical problems, reentering the atmosphere and so forth. So our work was more directed towards the ballistic missile program, but technically there was great overlap. So we had a technical and professional interest in that.

[Assistant] In March, the next year, you were chosen to be an assistant to Dr. James [R.] Killian [Special Assistant to the President for Science and Technology].

[User] Yes. … Dr. Killian requested NACA to provide him with a technical assistant …, to support him in things related to space and missiles, so I was transferred from NACA to his office in March. Now that you remind me, it was March. Because I got up there, and it was the middle of a snowstorm. That's how I remember. I got to Washington at ten o'clock at night and didn't really know where I was, on a train—you remember trains—and it was snowing like the dickens. You couldn't get a taxicab. So that was the beginning of my career in Washington.

[Assistant] Did you volunteer?

[User] That made me right then decide I wanted to get out as soon as I could. [Laughter] I might have even been subpoenaed by now.

[Assistant] So while you were in this assistant position—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. … Dr. Killian requested NACA to provide him with a technical assistant …, to support him in things related to space and missiles, so I was transferred from NACA to his office in March. Now that you remind me, it was March. Because I got up there, and it was the middle of a snowstorm. That's how I remember. I got to Washington at ten o'clock at night and didn't really know where I was, on a train—you remember trains—and it was snowing like the dickens. You couldn't get a taxicab. So that was the beginning of my career in Washington.

[Assistant] Did you volunteer?

[User] That made me right then decide I wanted to get out as soon as I could. [Laughter] I might have even been subpoenaed by now.

[Assistant] So while you were in this assistant position—

[User] I wasn't his assistant; I was a technical assistant. He had about ten or fifteen people that worked in different areas, disarmament and other things, and I was the technical assistant for space and missiles. He was also chairman of the President's Science Advisory Committee. That committee had … panels. For example, it had a space and missiles panel made up of eminent scientists from around the country. I served as secretary to that panel. I was not on the panel, I was secretary to the panel, and overall helped him in anything he had to do. Every time there was going to be a press briefing at the White House in the morning, which I guess there was every day, and something in the news related to missiles, they'd come over and say, "Hey, instantly write some set of information on this missile so we'll have it there in case somebody asks us about it," so you did that. You did lots of things.

[Assistant] Did you make recommendations to Dr. Killian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, one of them which wasn't that far out was to put the X-15 on top of an Atlas missile as a way of getting it into space, and I won't say that didn't have some thought to it. I think there would have been some great difficulties with that.

[Assistant] You were in that technical assistant position, and then you went back to Langley as part of the Space Task Group.

[User] Yes. I was offered the opportunity to stay in the new NASA headquarters, and I didn't see myself as a headquarters type, and I decided I wanted to go back and, frankly, rejoin the people I had worked with before, particularly Dr. [Robert R.] Gilruth and [Maxime A.] Faget and others, and that seemed like that would be interesting work, so I went back.

[Assistant] So what did you do when you got back to the Space Task Group?

[User] The Space Task Group was divided into three organizations at the time. I don't know what it was called, Space Flight Division or something. It was basically the Engineering Division. That was Faget's. Then Operations. I guess Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews might have run it initially. I'm not sure about that. Then there was a third, Support—administration and contracts and other things. A fellow named Charlie [Charles H.] Zimmerman ran that. Gilruth was head of it. Charlie [Charles J.] Donlan was his deputy assistant. When I came back I became Max's assistant or deputy or whatever word we were using then for helper. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So what was it like working with Mr. Faget?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was Roy.

[Assistant] Yes. I wrote the book that they looked at to do the interview on you. I did the research on you for this project, and I saw his name in conjunction with you.

[User] Oh, yes. I think Roy is director of Stennis now.

[Assistant] Yes. Actually, I think he told me that he had retired.

[User] He is an outstanding gentleman.

[Assistant] He seemed really nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I think Roy is director of Stennis now.

[Assistant] Yes. Actually, I think he told me that he had retired.

[User] He is an outstanding gentleman.

[Assistant] He seemed really nice.

[User] He is really nice, and when we were over there, they had instigated a little science program. It wasn't Earth Observations, but it was kind of applications of space stuff. I guess one part of that which you might remember that one of the people was working on, was this business of insects or amoebas or something that would eat up oil spills. You might have heard that, whatever it was. But they had started that little organization, and subsequently, that little organization, which he ran at the time, was integrated with our Earth Resources Laboratory. I think they're one and the same today. I don't know what they call it now, but he was probably one of the more outstanding people I met over there, very nice and smart.\n\n If you ever see him again, ask him about a fellow named Balch, B-A-L-C-H. I don't imagine you'll run across him. We won't go into Mr. Balch. That's another story. We don't have enough tape for that.

[Assistant] I have one final question. You worked so many years in the space industry, what would you like to see in the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hardly came up, but that's true. Of course, we convinced Jack that the Marines really is just a subset of the Navy. So actually that was noticed and we were pleased to have all come from the same service. But since my total time in the military was three years, it hardly compared to the career that both Alan and Jack have. But that was a minor unifying factor, and we had a chance to joke about it from time to time.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, you guys had been working together for several years before you were actually named to a crew. How did you find out that the three of you were going to be the second manned crew?

[User] I don't remember the answer for sure. I could be mistaken about this, but it was perhaps two years or a little more before launch, and there had been a number of us in the Skylab group who were focused on getting it done. From just a personal standpoint, I knew that there was Joe Kerwin, Ed [Edward G.] Gibson, and myself who were scientist astronauts. There were three flights, so there was a pretty good chance that we were each going to have a chance to fly. We didn't know which one exactly.\n\n So Deke Slayton, Alan Shepard probably made either the decision, or had the largest factor in making the decision. They, I believe, spoke with the commanders about it and may have allowed them some leeway or approval long after the decision was made. But Alan, I'm almost certain, was the one who mentioned it to me, and said, "How would you like to come fly with Jack and myself?" So obviously I was very enthusiastic. I can't remember the details about it, but I believe that's how it came about.

[Assistant] That sounds like a—

[User] Typical.

[Assistant] Typical, yes, I guess, is the word I'm looking for. Once you're on a crew, how does the training and the types of activities you're doing change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Typical.

[Assistant] Typical, yes, I guess, is the word I'm looking for. Once you're on a crew, how does the training and the types of activities you're doing change?

[User] It becomes more focused, because then there are other things that you can begin to look for. For example, the first flight had extra tasks associated with getting the station set up. They had other tasks eventually because of the problems that Skylab had that they didn't know about. So that was not a difference at the training stage. But theirs was a shorter mission, ours was a little longer mission, and so you had to tailor your training to the specifics of a flight. Although the basic solar physics training, the basic biomedical training, was the same. You then needed to be into more carefully delineating exactly what the flight program was going to be for the individual flights. So it allowed you to then focus on your individual flight and see more precisely how you would do things differently based upon the different tasks that you would then be called on.

[Assistant] Since you were the middle mission, the fifty—

[User] Fifty-nine and a half, we'll call it. We were out about sixty days.

[Assistant] This was going to be a record duration, so obviously the medical effects on your body and such were going to be an important thing to be studying. How did you go about establishing the baseline and going through experiments to see how this affects you physiologically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What's his last name? Not Kinzler. How's he spell his last name, Jack?

[Assistant] Yes, Kinzler was the one—

[User] Kinzler. I couldn't remember how he spelled his name, yes, who got his fishing poles out and built it here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Interesting thing, I was just talking about this at an astronomical meeting in Huntsville a couple of weeks ago. One of the fellows said, "Oh, yes, I helped design that." So I said, "Okay." [Laughter] I know he really didn't. I guess we probably ought to take this off the record. But as far as I'm concerned, everybody had a hand in it. The more people who think they did it, the better, even though I know the facts of it were just as you've mentioned to me here. But that wasn't a lazy period. People all over the country were helping.

[Assistant] Once they figure out a solution, these ten days with all this work, they send Pete Conrad's guys up to fix it, were you then following their crew closely in the developments going on with them and the EVAs [extravehicular activities] and such, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other EVAs, let's see. Jack had to change out some gyros. They had various other kinds of experiment works to do on the outside, bring back the cameras and so forth. But the one I just described is the one that sticks in my mind because of the difficult that I had putting those poles together.\n\n The other two EVAs went off more or less as advertised, although we did have some other activities, like, oh, for example, some of the windows, the aperture doors on the telescopes had to be pinned open. They were getting sticky. So we had to use a little wrench to take some of the nuts off and open the doors permanently, so it wouldn't remained closed. Some of those washers probably stayed in orbit for about another seven or eight years, because I couldn't keep six or eight washer in my hand, and they eventually floated away and probably burned up over Australia somewhere.

[Assistant] What an appropriate fate, given the rest of Skylab.\n\n You mentioned that this was all a month or so before you actually had to launch, and your flight was actually moved up several weeks because of some problems aboard the workshops, some mechanical issues. Do you remember what was going on there?

[User] I don't even remember that. [Laughter] Ours was advanced, was it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I don't remember any of that. I've forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me.

[Assistant] I think they were concerned that some of the new mechanical systems weren't going to hold up for—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even remember that. [Laughter] Ours was advanced, was it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I don't remember any of that. I've forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me.

[Assistant] I think they were concerned that some of the new mechanical systems weren't going to hold up for—

[User] Yes, they thought that they needed some people up there to attend to the control moment gyros, now that you've reminded me. I hadn't thought about it for decades. But there were a few problems they were concerned about, and so that was not a particular problem, as I recall. We thought we could handle that part all right.

[Assistant] If you can describe for me the days moving up to your launch and then the day of launch itself, the kind of preparations you went through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd forgotten that. I did not remember that part. Yes.

[Assistant] But it sounds like there plenty of merriment to go around.

[User] You try to do all of those, but you can't, but it does give a good feeling among the crew. I think it actually serves a very good purpose to pull those kinds of jokes, simple things that everyone can enjoy.

[Assistant] Would you then say that was characteristic of the relationship between your crew and the flight controllers' relationship?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Very good relationship. As a matter of fact, I'm still well acquainted with Neil Hutchinson and Gene and the other flight controllers. We talk whenever we get a chance. Neil often calls me for dinner when he comes through Huntsville, Alabama, where I now live. So I still see Neil from time to time.

[Assistant] He stops by here every once in a while, sits down and talks with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You try to do all of those, but you can't, but it does give a good feeling among the crew. I think it actually serves a very good purpose to pull those kinds of jokes, simple things that everyone can enjoy.

[Assistant] Would you then say that was characteristic of the relationship between your crew and the flight controllers' relationship?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Very good relationship. As a matter of fact, I'm still well acquainted with Neil Hutchinson and Gene and the other flight controllers. We talk whenever we get a chance. Neil often calls me for dinner when he comes through Huntsville, Alabama, where I now live. So I still see Neil from time to time.

[Assistant] He stops by here every once in a while, sits down and talks with us.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Was there anything from your flight that you found particularly surprising or eventful or unanticipated from your ground preparations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Very good relationship. As a matter of fact, I'm still well acquainted with Neil Hutchinson and Gene and the other flight controllers. We talk whenever we get a chance. Neil often calls me for dinner when he comes through Huntsville, Alabama, where I now live. So I still see Neil from time to time.

[Assistant] He stops by here every once in a while, sits down and talks with us.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Was there anything from your flight that you found particularly surprising or eventful or unanticipated from your ground preparations?

[User] Not too much. Actually, I think we had properly anticipated almost everything. I did mention this one about the difficulty putting together the twin poles, and obviously we hadn't anticipated the RCS failures, reaction control. But basically the operations on board went pretty much as planned. We were pleasantly surprised to have a very active sun, even though it were nearing the time of low sunspot activity. So those were some kind of pleasant surprises, but not the kind of answer I think your question was intended.\n\n So, no, I think we were not terribly surprised by events. We had properly planned and considered most of the things.

[Assistant] When we were talking about training, you mentioned some of the corollary experiments, some of these, I guess, hodgepodge things that they'd lumped together under that, one being testing the manned maneuvering unit [MMU] prototype. Can you tell me a little bit about some those and that one particularly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would have been amazingly useful, because we got so much benefit from extending the flights from one, two, and three months. We've had to wait now for Mir to come along and buy the time from the Russians. Cooperative work is fine and good, but, still, we should have had that data available with good quantitative biomedical measurements made of six- and twelve-month durations up on the “Skylab B.”

[Assistant] By the time you came down from your mission, Skylab's fate wasn't yet sealed, but what were the tasks you were doing after your mission?

[User] Rather shortly after I came back from Skylab, a matter of months, it was offered that I should go to the Science and Applications Directorate as Deputy Director. So I accepted that position and began to work in the physical sciences area outside the Astronaut Office, although while you're still at JSC, it's never really very clear whether you're keeping a foot back in the Astronaut Office or have it fully over here in another discipline. I preferred it that way, because I wanted to come back to the Astronaut Office at the appropriate time, when the time was right for another kind of a flight, as it eventually did with an Orbiter flight.

[Assistant] Do you think it was likely that you would get another flight once the Space Shuttle came on line?

[User] I thought it was fairly likely. We didn't have such a large number of people in the office by that point. I guess we'd selected some people in 1978, but that was the time that I came back. So we still had a pretty small office, and coming back in with experience, I thought, and the fact that my research background, my professional interests or scientific interests were related to the objectives of [Spacelab], I thought there was a pretty good chance.

[Assistant] As someone in Science and Applications, what role did you see for the Space Shuttle in doing these types of experiments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Spacelab I, if this is your question, the whole mission was oriented towards making clear that the Spacelab, the laboratory that fit in the payload bay of the Shuttle, was useful for the whole range of scientific disciplines. So we had about six different disciplines represented, so very interdisciplinary, which is, well, my interest is interdisciplinary work. So not only a lot of biomedical work, but also astronomy, fluid physics, materials processing, atmospheric sciences, all were represented with differing experiments.\n\n So I found that quite interesting, and I think it does relate to the fact that you need an interdisciplinary background to try to conduct experiments for all of these PIs [principal investigators], because you obviously can't have a representative for each PI there, and you need somebody who has got some degree of competency in all of the variety of areas.

[Assistant] Was Spacelab then your primary focus once you moved over to Science Applications?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I didn't come back—well, I took one year out. I actually was the Deputy Director there for about two years, then I took a year off for, like a sabbatical, only they called it another thing, within NASA for a one-year trip back to the university. I went back to Stanford for a year. Then when I came back, they'd combined the Physical and Life Sciences Directorate and I was Deputy for Physical Sciences there for a year or so, until it became time to select crews for Spacelab, and that's when I went back to the Astronaut Office. So I went back from that position specifically for Spacelab.

[Assistant] When and how did you find out that you were scheduled for the first Spacelab mission?

[User] Probably George [W. S.] Abbey, but I can't remember. Either George Abbey or John [W.] Young was the Commander of the Spacelab flight. I can't remember which.

[Assistant] What kind of experiments were you going to do on this first mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think so. It was a little hard to tell when you came back, but when we came down and landed, of course, like a glider, I remember going in the van, being picked up by George Abbey and he said, "Well, the science community is very happy," or very pleased with how things went. So that was the clue we had. But when George was willing to tell us that, I was very pleased.

[Assistant] Yes, that's certainly a positive experience when you can get his okay that something went well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] After your flight, you moved into the Space Station Program as a program scientist.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Could you explain what that job involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] After your flight, you moved into the Space Station Program as a program scientist.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Could you explain what that job involved?

[User] We had the responsibility for the principal program office here at the center at that time. In fact, Neil Hutchinson was the head of the Space Station Program here in JSC at that time. We were simply making preliminary plans for the conduct of science and looking at preliminary ideas. There were several different alternative configurations that the Space Station should look at and might be designed to follow. One of Neil's job, principally, I think, was to decide which of these options were going to be best. My job was to advise on the conduct of science on these various options, how would you do it and so forth.\n\n Also at that time, one of my other—perhaps my second big complaint about NASA decisions has to do with the decision that was finally made to put the Space Station up with Shuttle, which, of course, now we're doing. It's only going to take about another forty-five Shuttle flights to get there. We could have put it up with the other two of those Saturn Vs, for example or another alternative heavy-lift vehicle which could be a Shuttle derivative, very much more quickly, very much less expensively had we done that.\n\n I tried to convince them, even though it's a little bit out of my main line of responsibility, that the conduct of the program would be much better had they used heavy-lift vehicle and we could, of course, have done the science earlier, as well. So from that standpoint, it was a connection to my real responsibilities. That wasn't accepted either. But that's the kind of work that I was doing when the program office was here at JSC.

[Assistant] The Space Station really kicked off when in 1984 Reagan said, "Let's build a station in ten years." How do you think his pledge compared with that of Kennedy, and really the results coming out of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Uh, that's a four year college?

[User] It's a four year college.

[Assistant] In California?

[User] California, yes.

[Assistant] What was your major?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a four year college.

[Assistant] In California?

[User] California, yes.

[Assistant] What was your major?

[User] History. Latin American history specifically.

[Assistant] Okay. And where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] California, yes.

[Assistant] What was your major?

[User] History. Latin American history specifically.

[Assistant] Okay. And where had you grown up?

[User] In Tucson.

[Assistant] And went to high school in Tucson?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] History. Latin American history specifically.

[Assistant] Okay. And where had you grown up?

[User] In Tucson.

[Assistant] And went to high school in Tucson?

[User] Went to high school in Tucson. Went to Catalina High School, uh, followed my older sister to Pomona. Um.

[Assistant] And talk a little bit about your family setting, your, uh, siblings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, he was struggling to make a living as a contractor. His background was in, uh, archeology before, well, starting in 1929. And his father before him.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And during that time as well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, but he had, my father didn't have a degree.

[Assistant] He was an amateur archeologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and he was with his father on several digs in Nevada and Arizona and, um, during the Depression. It was all Depression work in those days.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, he developed quite a reputation for himself as a first class field man in archeology, with or without a degree.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So when he came to Tucson. Well, prior to coming to Tucson, he had worked in this area for the University of Arizona, at Snaketown, at Ventana Cave, at University Indian ruins, um, at Pueblo Grinding. Um, so he had, the point of all this is that, uh, as we were growing up, my parents' friends were all of that, um, uh, group of people in the 40s and 50s that were archeologists, anthropologists, ecologists. Um, so our house was full of people of that ilk growing up. So I came by the interest in other cultures.

[Assistant] Right. In, during your high school years, what kind of extracurricular activities do you do? What kind of travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when he came to Tucson. Well, prior to coming to Tucson, he had worked in this area for the University of Arizona, at Snaketown, at Ventana Cave, at University Indian ruins, um, at Pueblo Grinding. Um, so he had, the point of all this is that, uh, as we were growing up, my parents' friends were all of that, um, uh, group of people in the 40s and 50s that were archeologists, anthropologists, ecologists. Um, so our house was full of people of that ilk growing up. So I came by the interest in other cultures.

[Assistant] Right. In, during your high school years, what kind of extracurricular activities do you do? What kind of travel?

[User] Um, not a lot of travel.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, a little bit in Mexico. Um, I was a, you know, a.

[Assistant] On digs or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, a little bit in Mexico. Um, I was a, you know, a.

[Assistant] On digs or?

[User] No, no. Just little, little travels.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Um, we didn't really travel much because dad's, uh, business kind of kept him tied to the, tied to the phone, so to speak. So, you know, I chased girls and I was a gymnast. I was on a gymnastics team at Catalina, and just a pretty typical, um, uh, interests in those days.

[Assistant] Did you learn Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took Spanish in, in high school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I took Spanish in college.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I spent a year between my junior and senior years kicking around part of the time in Mexico. And I really learned Spanish then.

[Assistant] Okay, so on your own.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took Spanish in college.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I spent a year between my junior and senior years kicking around part of the time in Mexico. And I really learned Spanish then.

[Assistant] Okay, so on your own.

[User] Yeah. So I spent three months hitching around Mexico in 1963. And so by the time I got to Mexico after, after college, I was fluent in Spanish.

[Assistant] When, when you first went into college, so what kind of goal had you set yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a liberal arts college. It looked great. It had lots of different things. I was, you know, a bright kid in high school. So in, in the late '50s, what you did then was you became an engineer to help, you know, battle the Russkies and all that stuff. So I went to Pomona in a, in a five year program with Caltech. I was going to be three years in Pomona, two years in Caltech, and come out a fancy pants engineer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And my first year at Pomona, I took my first, uh, uh, good history course and a required course in comparative religion, and it totally blew my mind. I didn't know that thinking about this stuff was a legitimate activity, and I loved it. So I switched to history after my first year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I took all kinds of, I minored in geology because it was interesting to me. But Pomona was a fantastic place, and it had lots of really, really good professors. And so I took a lot of different things.

[Assistant] Do you recall when you first became aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And this was when Vietnam was kind of heating up, is that right?

[Assistant] Yes, yes.

[User] Um, so, uh, these, I remember one of the Brazilian students telling us, uh, a group of us talking about Peace Corps, that he detested the Peace Corps because it was counter-revolutionary. They were giving the peasants hope and there was no hope. So they were basically postponing the inevitable.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So that caught my eye, caught my ear. But, you know, I really didn't think about it much. I was kind of, uh, just going through the usual college thing.

[Assistant] But as you, as you approached graduation, you must have been faced with the issue of the draft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the Navajo reservation.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] As a laborer and then as a technician. So, and so I naturally fell into a job after college in archeology. And for some reason, I got a deferment for it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Um, I was a field, uh, big foreman at the University of Arizona Field School that summer right after college, and then my year in Mexico started after that.

[Assistant] You weren't enrolled as a student during that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a laborer and then as a technician. So, and so I naturally fell into a job after college in archeology. And for some reason, I got a deferment for it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Um, I was a field, uh, big foreman at the University of Arizona Field School that summer right after college, and then my year in Mexico started after that.

[Assistant] You weren't enrolled as a student during that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Just as an archeologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there was an article in the National Geographic about Snaketown. My father sent me a copy, a copy of the, of the magazine. And in that same issue was an article about Micronesia.

[Assistant] Oh, ha.

[User] And there were photographs of these incredible sailing canoes and these beautiful women and these tattooed guys who, just great. And it mentioned that Peace Corps was there.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I had already applied and been accepted.

[Assistant] You had applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I actually had been accepted to go to Kenya on a, in a teaching program. So that was '67.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Early '67 was when I was accepted. Um, so I wrote them and said, do you have any programs in Micronesia that I would qualify for? And they wrote right back and said, sure, we have an agriculture program, and we're sending a bunch of people out. It'll be very timely. And you can go.

[Assistant] Of course, you came from an absolutely nonagricultural background.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I actually had been accepted to go to Kenya on a, in a teaching program. So that was '67.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Early '67 was when I was accepted. Um, so I wrote them and said, do you have any programs in Micronesia that I would qualify for? And they wrote right back and said, sure, we have an agriculture program, and we're sending a bunch of people out. It'll be very timely. And you can go.

[Assistant] Of course, you came from an absolutely nonagricultural background.

[User] Nonagricultural background. I think one of my strengths was the cross-cultural experience.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. Well, you certainly are a strong candidate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Early '67 was when I was accepted. Um, so I wrote them and said, do you have any programs in Micronesia that I would qualify for? And they wrote right back and said, sure, we have an agriculture program, and we're sending a bunch of people out. It'll be very timely. And you can go.

[Assistant] Of course, you came from an absolutely nonagricultural background.

[User] Nonagricultural background. I think one of my strengths was the cross-cultural experience.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. Well, you certainly are a strong candidate.

[User] Familiarity with simple living and stuff.

[Assistant] And they didn't, they weren't tempted to assign you to Latin America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nonagricultural background. I think one of my strengths was the cross-cultural experience.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. Well, you certainly are a strong candidate.

[User] Familiarity with simple living and stuff.

[Assistant] And they didn't, they weren't tempted to assign you to Latin America?

[User] No, and it may be, I mean, I have no idea what was in their minds. I was in Mexico at the time. This was all just letters back and forth. So when they said, yeah, we have a program in Micronesia, I didn't even really have much of a clue of what was going on in Micronesia, except.

[Assistant] You had the National Geographic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Familiarity with simple living and stuff.

[Assistant] And they didn't, they weren't tempted to assign you to Latin America?

[User] No, and it may be, I mean, I have no idea what was in their minds. I was in Mexico at the time. This was all just letters back and forth. So when they said, yeah, we have a program in Micronesia, I didn't even really have much of a clue of what was going on in Micronesia, except.

[Assistant] You had the National Geographic.

[User] I had the National Geographic thing, you know. So we, so I was accepted. And when we got done with the job in, in Mexico, that was in June, I think, or July of '67. About a month later, I was in San Francisco shipping out.

[Assistant] So, all right, so you're accepted in the Peace Corps and where did you train then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and it may be, I mean, I have no idea what was in their minds. I was in Mexico at the time. This was all just letters back and forth. So when they said, yeah, we have a program in Micronesia, I didn't even really have much of a clue of what was going on in Micronesia, except.

[Assistant] You had the National Geographic.

[User] I had the National Geographic thing, you know. So we, so I was accepted. And when we got done with the job in, in Mexico, that was in June, I think, or July of '67. About a month later, I was in San Francisco shipping out.

[Assistant] So, all right, so you're accepted in the Peace Corps and where did you train then?

[User] We trained in country.

[Assistant] Okay. So by then they had shifted over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We trained in country.

[Assistant] Okay. So by then they had shifted over.

[User] We were the second group to train in country.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I'm so glad for it.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your fifth day in the Peace Corps, you're in Micronesia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were the second group to train in country.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I'm so glad for it.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your fifth day in the Peace Corps, you're in Micronesia.

[User] Micronesia, yeah. We spent about a week in San Francisco, you know, weeding out the lunatics and the terrorists and whatnot. And then, and then we.

[Assistant] How many, how many, about how many were in the group at that point?