[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] I know your schedule is busy. I thought we’d begin today by asking about your interest in science as a child.

[User] One of the interesting things that I remember, it probably stands out. When I family moved from Minnesota to California, my dad was following the jobs right after the Korean War. On the way, we drove and went through the Badlands in South Dakota, through Yellowstone, et cetera. I started collecting rocks the whole way. I think my life was preordained from that moment. I was going to be a geologist. I didn’t know that at that time, but it’s a funny story. I did that as a 12 year old, and then in high school I remember in the senior English class we had to write a paper on a career. One of the term papers was on a career. You go to the library, you look through all these pamphlets. I saw a pamphlet on geology. I said, “Hm.” Opened it up. Here’s a guy riding horseback through the mountains. I thought, “Ah, that’s cool.” So I wrote it about that.\n\n Then I got a scholarship to Stanford [University, Stanford, California], and I was sitting in an auditorium. They were telling all us freshmen that you can choose a major now, or you can become general studies, or it’s up to you. If you have a major, go ahead, and declare it. You can always change. So I thought, “Hm.” I wrote geology in there. I’ve been a geologist ever since.

[Assistant] It just kind of stuck.

[User] I never anticipated going on for a PhD. I just wound up going that way. The concept of research really interested me, and geology fascinated me. So that’s where I wound up.

[Assistant] Was there any focus that you were particularly interested in once you started graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just wish I knew where that recording was.

[Assistant] And that was another question for you.

[User] Yes, I remember this very well. In fact, we have a movie of this. There is a 16-millimeter movie of this activity.

[Assistant] Oh, is there? Okay.

[User] I recently worked with the video people here at JSC, and I got digitized versions of all these movies that were taken in the LRL. Fifteen missions had quite a number of these videos. Sixteen had only four. Seventeen they only did one. I guess even the videographers were losing interest. Unless Dr. [Robert R.] Gilruth was coming over, or Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft was coming over to look at the samples, the video people weren’t interested—or I guess they were movies at that time. They weren’t videos. They were 16-millimeter movies. They weren’t interested unless there was a big shot coming over, I guess. I don’t say that in a derogatory way. That’s just the way things are.\n\n But yes, that’s Jim [James W.] Head there in the picture with me. I guess you got the names her somewhere. That’s Dave and Jim. I was recording their comments. I’m sure what I did is I gave that tape to Gordy Swann for the field geology team to work with. I never got it back. Now that I’ve got the movie, I would love to be able to tie the silent movie to that tape because that would have been possible. But I’ve never been able to locate [it]. The USGS doesn’t know where the—if they have the tape, they don’t know where it is.

[Assistant] Oh, what a shame.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, when they landed at Edwards they didn’t land on a lake bed. They landed on the hard runway. It was the first landing on a 15,000-foot runway. I guess we passed along to them that we knew enough about what the Shuttle does when it gets near the ground. You can probably get it stopped in 15,000 feet. You pretty well know where it’s going to land. We got better and better on that as we went through the first, second and third flights. So other than that I don’t recall. There were probably some things that we discussed but good grief, it’s been 35 years or more.

[Assistant] Been a while. I did have a question about the launch. I was reading that you flew a different launch pattern than the other first two flights. Do you have any recollection of that?

[User] No, I don’t know how that was different.

[Assistant] I think that we hit all the highlights of the mission but I did have some other questions for you about some of the earlier material you had talked about. Would you mind if we went back and talked about some of that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] One of the other assignments that I saw that you had worked on were software issues besides those crew displays that you had talked about. Were you working with SAIL or FSL [Flight System Laboratory]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t know how that was different.

[Assistant] I think that we hit all the highlights of the mission but I did have some other questions for you about some of the earlier material you had talked about. Would you mind if we went back and talked about some of that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] One of the other assignments that I saw that you had worked on were software issues besides those crew displays that you had talked about. Were you working with SAIL or FSL [Flight System Laboratory]?

[User] I had little interaction with the SAIL except for an unsuccessful attempt to understand how the STS-3 software for an automatic approach system was implemented. I had a little bit to do with software development when it concerned some of the video displays, the CRT [cathode-ray tube] displays, especially that had to do with the experiments that we were flying. The ones in the back of the bus were primarily put on by Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland]. We had to interface with them. Before the mission, when I realized what they were going to be and that there hadn’t been much work done on the displays for operating those experiments I got the principal investigators together up at Goddard. We went up and took a look at their stuff. This is where their experimental equipment, the flight hardware, was being tested before it’d be sent to the Cape.\n\n We went through the flight plan and found out what it was they wanted to do and made sure the displays were compatible. They effectively had not done much with displays at all. That’s what cued us when we started looking at their displays down here in Houston. They were unsatisfactory for doing the real mission. We went up there and ironed all that out with several of the experiments that were in the cargo bay. OSS [Office of Space Science]-1 was one of them; Goddard was responsible for the test, evaluation, and preparation of most of the cargo bay experiments.

[Assistant] This included Getaway Specials [GAS]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] One of the other assignments that I saw that you had worked on were software issues besides those crew displays that you had talked about. Were you working with SAIL or FSL [Flight System Laboratory]?

[User] I had little interaction with the SAIL except for an unsuccessful attempt to understand how the STS-3 software for an automatic approach system was implemented. I had a little bit to do with software development when it concerned some of the video displays, the CRT [cathode-ray tube] displays, especially that had to do with the experiments that we were flying. The ones in the back of the bus were primarily put on by Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland]. We had to interface with them. Before the mission, when I realized what they were going to be and that there hadn’t been much work done on the displays for operating those experiments I got the principal investigators together up at Goddard. We went up and took a look at their stuff. This is where their experimental equipment, the flight hardware, was being tested before it’d be sent to the Cape.\n\n We went through the flight plan and found out what it was they wanted to do and made sure the displays were compatible. They effectively had not done much with displays at all. That’s what cued us when we started looking at their displays down here in Houston. They were unsatisfactory for doing the real mission. We went up there and ironed all that out with several of the experiments that were in the cargo bay. OSS [Office of Space Science]-1 was one of them; Goddard was responsible for the test, evaluation, and preparation of most of the cargo bay experiments.

[Assistant] This included Getaway Specials [GAS]?

[User] I don’t recall who managed the Getaway Specials.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that there were different types of HUDs that you were evaluating. Can you tell us about some of those different types?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was always a lot more than I thought. I don’t have the numbers for that. I don’t know if there’s anybody who does.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about convincing management of the need for this HUD. Would you share with us how the process went from, “Let’s go investigate it” to “This is something that we actually need on the Space Shuttle?”

[User] Yes. I wasn’t going to go into that.

[Assistant] It’s your call.

[User] They were not too keen on putting it in. In fact there was a time when I thought they might not, but this was also during ALT flights. The last ALT flight had a little dipsy-doodle in their landing. When Rockwell saw that they thought maybe a head-up display wouldn’t be a bad idea.

[Assistant] So they agreed with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I wasn’t going to go into that.

[Assistant] It’s your call.

[User] They were not too keen on putting it in. In fact there was a time when I thought they might not, but this was also during ALT flights. The last ALT flight had a little dipsy-doodle in their landing. When Rockwell saw that they thought maybe a head-up display wouldn’t be a bad idea.

[Assistant] So they agreed with you.

[User] They didn’t want anybody breaking their airplane.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Columbia didn’t have this HUD until later. Did the STA have a HUD? Or you didn’t use a HUD until later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were not too keen on putting it in. In fact there was a time when I thought they might not, but this was also during ALT flights. The last ALT flight had a little dipsy-doodle in their landing. When Rockwell saw that they thought maybe a head-up display wouldn’t be a bad idea.

[Assistant] So they agreed with you.

[User] They didn’t want anybody breaking their airplane.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Columbia didn’t have this HUD until later. Did the STA have a HUD? Or you didn’t use a HUD until later?

[User] It didn’t have one when I was doing it. No, the left side of the STA was configured just like the Shuttle we were flying.

[Assistant] Tell us about the ’78 class coming in. You mentioned you were orienting the pilots, but tell us what it was like when you had women and minorities coming into the office, and a very large group of astronauts coming in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn’t want anybody breaking their airplane.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Columbia didn’t have this HUD until later. Did the STA have a HUD? Or you didn’t use a HUD until later?

[User] It didn’t have one when I was doing it. No, the left side of the STA was configured just like the Shuttle we were flying.

[Assistant] Tell us about the ’78 class coming in. You mentioned you were orienting the pilots, but tell us what it was like when you had women and minorities coming into the office, and a very large group of astronauts coming in.

[User] There were no women test pilots at that time so they weren’t in the 15 pilots that I was getting oriented. The 1978 women were all mission specialists. I thought they really were doing a good job as mission specialists. Sally [K.] Ride worked on the remotely controlled arm on STS-3 and contributed greatly in that area. I thought they were very proficient in what they were doing. I’ve admired what they’ve done.\n\n Shannon [W.] Lucid on the Mir—she was for a while the most well traveled astronaut. Shannon is a good friend. I appreciate her company. She’s still around. I saw her in Mission Control the other day working on that. We had a Bible study that my wife and I started when those folks came. She of course is a missionary’s daughter, with quite a colorful early history. She was a member of that Bible study as were some others.\n\n Anna [L.] Fisher, I worked with her quite a bit as well, Judy [Judith A.] Resnik, Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan too on the EVA. They contributed to the development of things we were doing. They came on, and that’s the way they learned. Like the rest of us did before. We were in support crews. They took over that function for us.

[Assistant] Do you think they changed the office in any way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. As I recall just a CRT that showed what the Skylab was doing. I had a simulated docking module that would dock with it and see if I could make the docking. That’s all it was. We didn’t have anything more elaborate than that. We didn’t have the two big pieces physically to dock together; we might have had that later, but it didn’t get that far. This was adequate; it was only going to be done one time anyway. We didn’t have to have a simulator for lots of different astronauts. It was a one-shot deal.\n\n The Marshall Space Flight Center was the head of that contract with Martin Marietta. I would go to work with the engineers at Martin Marietta, but we didn’t have a simulator there. We just took the data that we got off the one at Marshall and made them aware of what needed to be done.\n\n They did a good job. As long and as far as it went, we really were able to define what the requirements were and match them with the final design of the booster package.

[Assistant] You mentioned it was going to be as big as a truck?

[User] It was about the size of a dump truck, yes. Sits in the payload bay of the Space Shuttle. It was quite large. There are some pictures of it, or schematics of it, around. Perhaps you’ve seen them.

[Assistant] No I haven’t actually. I’ll have to.

[User] I have slides at home, but clearly they’ve got them over in the archives here somewhere.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look and attach them to the transcript. That’d be great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about the size of a dump truck, yes. Sits in the payload bay of the Space Shuttle. It was quite large. There are some pictures of it, or schematics of it, around. Perhaps you’ve seen them.

[Assistant] No I haven’t actually. I’ll have to.

[User] I have slides at home, but clearly they’ve got them over in the archives here somewhere.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look and attach them to the transcript. That’d be great.

[User] It had a booster engine. It also had fuel tanks on it too, propellant tanks. It had to be fairly good size to do the job. Nobody ever decided which way it was going to be used, to go higher or to go lower.

[Assistant] Were you also working on prox ops [proximity operations] and rendezvous efforts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have slides at home, but clearly they’ve got them over in the archives here somewhere.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look and attach them to the transcript. That’d be great.

[User] It had a booster engine. It also had fuel tanks on it too, propellant tanks. It had to be fairly good size to do the job. Nobody ever decided which way it was going to be used, to go higher or to go lower.

[Assistant] Were you also working on prox ops [proximity operations] and rendezvous efforts?

[User] No I didn’t work on that. Fred was working on that for this particular mission, the rendezvous and prox ops with the Shuttle and Skylab, but I was going to do the part in between. It was kind of Buck Rogersish, but it was doable. Also made it exciting.

[Assistant] Yes, it sounds really neat. Did you have any specific role in the maiden flight of Columbia? The first STS flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had a booster engine. It also had fuel tanks on it too, propellant tanks. It had to be fairly good size to do the job. Nobody ever decided which way it was going to be used, to go higher or to go lower.

[Assistant] Were you also working on prox ops [proximity operations] and rendezvous efforts?

[User] No I didn’t work on that. Fred was working on that for this particular mission, the rendezvous and prox ops with the Shuttle and Skylab, but I was going to do the part in between. It was kind of Buck Rogersish, but it was doable. Also made it exciting.

[Assistant] Yes, it sounds really neat. Did you have any specific role in the maiden flight of Columbia? The first STS flight?

[User] No. Just went to see it go. That’s about it. Got back here in two days. So no, I didn’t have any role in the first two missions. Gordon and I were just training for ours. So two and a half years before the flight we started training; that included starting with classes. When the Space Shuttle itself was so brand-new, there was a lot that was unknown about it, but we worked with the flight controllers, went to classes, and learned about how the systems worked. We were ready to get in the simulator. There were some part-task trainers also that we could get some time in as well before we got in the Shuttle mission simulator.\n\n So let’s see. Two and a half years before that would have been end of ’79 I guess, but that’s how long we trained for the Skylab mission with Bean and Garriott too, two and a half years.

[Assistant] Had training changed at all since Skylab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Shuttle landing is a whole lot different. The only thing you don’t want to do is to go off into the water along the runway, because there are alligators in there. There are quite a few differences. All things considered, I think the Apollo ride is more dynamic.

[Assistant] Sounds like a great career. Thank you so much.

[User] I’ve been a very fortunate person. We’re going to talk about Apollo 13 in the Apollo Mission Control Center. NBC is doing a documentary of some sort. I guess they’ll play it next month during the 40th Anniversary of Apollo 13 during April 11 to 17. I was one of the CapComs [Capsule Communicators]. Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin and Vance Brand were the others. I was on duty with Flight Director Gene Kranz when the explosion occurred. I don’t know who all is going to be over there, but they’re putting a documentary together. So that’s what brings me back to Houston today.

[Assistant] You got a lot of memories today from one range to the other.

[User] Yes. I didn’t get to the Moon, but I had a very fortunate career. I was in training for another [Shuttle] flight, but it was two years downstream. It was just to dump off a satellite. It wasn’t a test flight. I got in the simulator and started training, thought to myself, “Hmm, been here, done this.” A lot of people would give their right arm to do it.\n\n I decided that since it wasn’t as exciting, and I’d done this all before, it was probably time to be moving on. So I quit. I thought well, if I don’t get a buzz out of it it’s not worth the risk to my family, besides, two years might be six. You really don’t know. At some point in time you have to think about getting a real job and going to work for a living!

[Assistant] Put it off as long as you could, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] We've done a lot of research about your past and about your work with the space program. First off, I'd like to ask you when and where were you born?

[User] I was born a long time ago, almost eighty-four years ago, in a small village in southern Germany. My father was a teacher there. I grew up in a rural setting. It was a very beautiful, little, small village, and I was more at home in the stables of the farmers and in the fields and in the woods than I would have been in a town. It was a beautiful youth for me. My love for nature and for all things in nature began probably at that time and has persisted ever since.

[Assistant] Where did your interest in rocketry and the space program develop?

[User] As a relatively normal young boy, I played with rockets when I was about fourteen or fifteen years old. They didn't amount to much, and I'm almost embarrassed when I think today of what I did at that time. I took pipes and filled them with grued [phonetic] powder which I made myself, and they got up a few yards in the air, but not much more, and it didn't amount to much.\n\n But then when I was about fourteen or fifteen years old, I happened to see in a journal, in a picture journal, a photograph of a person who held a rocket in his hands, and the caption said, "Professor [Hermann] Oberth believes that man can fly to the moon one of these days, with rockets." That impressed me very much, and at that time, it was long ago, I still believed everything that a professor said. That would not be true today. [Laughter] But at that time it was. I believed that man can fly to the moon with rockets, and I still believe it today.

[Assistant] And did you go on to study that, then, in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His parents lived in Berlin. His father, Wernher von Braun's father, was at that time — he had been Secretary of Agriculture under the democratic government. He left his political position when Hitler came and became the head of a banking house in Berlin. So he was a prominent man and family, still, and they had a nanny for their children. Do you know what a nanny is?

[Assistant] I sure do.

[User] The nanny happened to be an English girl, and she brought up little Magnus and taught him English before he learned German, and so he spoke English. He went to the Allies. Again, that's a very interesting story. It has been written here in the other books also. After some time – I'll just skip over some of the details. After some time the Allies came and met von Braun and interrogated him and found out that he really was the man behind the Peenemunde work. So they said, "We want to help you and keep you under guard in captivity, more or less, but we want you to go to America as soon as possible. You should take some of your people with you so that you can continue to build rockets in America."

[Assistant] May I stop and ask you one question?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the reason behind the decision to go to America as opposed to Russia? Was there a big decision there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The nanny happened to be an English girl, and she brought up little Magnus and taught him English before he learned German, and so he spoke English. He went to the Allies. Again, that's a very interesting story. It has been written here in the other books also. After some time – I'll just skip over some of the details. After some time the Allies came and met von Braun and interrogated him and found out that he really was the man behind the Peenemunde work. So they said, "We want to help you and keep you under guard in captivity, more or less, but we want you to go to America as soon as possible. You should take some of your people with you so that you can continue to build rockets in America."

[Assistant] May I stop and ask you one question?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the reason behind the decision to go to America as opposed to Russia? Was there a big decision there?

[User] Miss Kelly, it was not a big decision. It was a very straightforward and immediate decision. First of all, I should mention here that for most people in Germany, particularly for people like me and my colleagues, the Americans were never real enemies during the war. We never felt like it, even though they threw bombs on us and all of that. But America was for Germans, and particularly for young Germans, always a kind of a dream country where they wanted to go one of these days when they are older. They wanted to go to America. America had such a glorious image for us in Germany, and the idea that we are enemies did not really come up, even though we were at war. We knew the war would be something transient and not something to stay for a long time. That was one reason.\n\n The other reason was that we knew that the Russians were quite different. The Russians had come into Eastern Europe and into Germany, and there were a lot of cruelties by Russians, and we knew we would not have an enviable fate if the Russians would have captured us.

[Assistant] That's a very interesting perspective.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the reason behind the decision to go to America as opposed to Russia? Was there a big decision there?

[User] Miss Kelly, it was not a big decision. It was a very straightforward and immediate decision. First of all, I should mention here that for most people in Germany, particularly for people like me and my colleagues, the Americans were never real enemies during the war. We never felt like it, even though they threw bombs on us and all of that. But America was for Germans, and particularly for young Germans, always a kind of a dream country where they wanted to go one of these days when they are older. They wanted to go to America. America had such a glorious image for us in Germany, and the idea that we are enemies did not really come up, even though we were at war. We knew the war would be something transient and not something to stay for a long time. That was one reason.\n\n The other reason was that we knew that the Russians were quite different. The Russians had come into Eastern Europe and into Germany, and there were a lot of cruelties by Russians, and we knew we would not have an enviable fate if the Russians would have captured us.

[Assistant] That's a very interesting perspective.

[User] It was not a difficult decision. It was very straightforward, absolutely. Also we had hoped at that time that if and when we can go to America, we would have a chance to continue our work on rockets, and for us the rocket was not a military system, but it was meant to go into orbit and into space. It was von Braun's dream and reason to work on rockets from the very beginning.\n\n When von Braun was fourteen years old he said – he was a little grandiose – he said, "I would like to open the gates of heaven for mankind." [Laughter] Doesn't that sound great? And that's what were his driving force and his dream all the time.

[Assistant] And he did just that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did only theoretical work. Professor [Hermann] Oberth – is Professor Oberth known to you?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He spoke in 1923 that one could build rocket engines which work on the principle of electric fields and electric forces rather than chemical forces. Von Braun asked me one day in 1947 in Fort Bliss to look into Oberth's claims and see whether one could make a workable system out of it. That's how it began for me, and I did look into it and contributed a number of new ideas. I also wrote a book about ion propulsion. Would you like to see it? I have it here. I can show it to you.

[Assistant] This is the Professor Oberth that inspired you as a child, too, isn't it?

[User] Yes. Same person. The main work that we did in Fort Bliss was to launch the V-2 rockets which had been brought over from the production line in Germany. There were altogether about 100 V-2 rockets or A-4 rockets in parts. They were brought over here, first by railroad, then by ship to New Orleans, and then by truck from New Orleans to White Sands, and it is unbelievable today for a rocket engineer, these fine parts which were made in clean rooms in Peenemunde, and precision parts, they were unloaded and put in the center of the desert in Fort Bliss, and they were just lying there in the sand storms. [Laughter] So we had the task of putting these together and making workable rockets out of them again.

[Assistant] That must have been fantastic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He spoke in 1923 that one could build rocket engines which work on the principle of electric fields and electric forces rather than chemical forces. Von Braun asked me one day in 1947 in Fort Bliss to look into Oberth's claims and see whether one could make a workable system out of it. That's how it began for me, and I did look into it and contributed a number of new ideas. I also wrote a book about ion propulsion. Would you like to see it? I have it here. I can show it to you.

[Assistant] This is the Professor Oberth that inspired you as a child, too, isn't it?

[User] Yes. Same person. The main work that we did in Fort Bliss was to launch the V-2 rockets which had been brought over from the production line in Germany. There were altogether about 100 V-2 rockets or A-4 rockets in parts. They were brought over here, first by railroad, then by ship to New Orleans, and then by truck from New Orleans to White Sands, and it is unbelievable today for a rocket engineer, these fine parts which were made in clean rooms in Peenemunde, and precision parts, they were unloaded and put in the center of the desert in Fort Bliss, and they were just lying there in the sand storms. [Laughter] So we had the task of putting these together and making workable rockets out of them again.

[Assistant] That must have been fantastic.

[User] Many of the rockets were – there were parts of about 100, but they were not quite complete. Some parts had to be manufactured again by General Electric to make a rocket complete. Anyway, we launched about, I think, seventy-two rockets, and in spite of the rough treatment of these rocket parts, the long time since their manufacturing and the long trip from Bittlof [phonetic], Germany, to the White Sands Proving Grounds [New Mexico], in spite of all of that, about 65 or 70 percent of the rockets worked very well.

[Assistant] Wow. Even despite the fact that they traveled all the way from Germany.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many of the rockets were – there were parts of about 100, but they were not quite complete. Some parts had to be manufactured again by General Electric to make a rocket complete. Anyway, we launched about, I think, seventy-two rockets, and in spite of the rough treatment of these rocket parts, the long time since their manufacturing and the long trip from Bittlof [phonetic], Germany, to the White Sands Proving Grounds [New Mexico], in spite of all of that, about 65 or 70 percent of the rockets worked very well.

[Assistant] Wow. Even despite the fact that they traveled all the way from Germany.

[User] Yes, had spent some time lying in the desert sand in the open.

[Assistant] That's remarkable.

[User] The rockets were used to launch scientific instruments. That was a very important and very useful application of them. The Army, of course, wanted to learn how to launch rockets and how they would function and what one has to do to launch them, how many people would be necessary, what ground equipment one would need, but there was a group of scientists who had joined together to have a program of instruments flown to high altitudes. That became a very important and very rich program, rich in new results and new knowledge of the upper atmosphere and of the space beyond the atmosphere. It was a very rich program. It's very interesting to realize that the military application of rockets, or that rocket, or our rocket in Germany, lasted from September '44 to March '45, February or March '45. That's about – well, a few months. The use of the same rocket for scientific purposes in White Sands covered seven years.

[Assistant] Wow. That's spectacular in contrast.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, had spent some time lying in the desert sand in the open.

[Assistant] That's remarkable.

[User] The rockets were used to launch scientific instruments. That was a very important and very useful application of them. The Army, of course, wanted to learn how to launch rockets and how they would function and what one has to do to launch them, how many people would be necessary, what ground equipment one would need, but there was a group of scientists who had joined together to have a program of instruments flown to high altitudes. That became a very important and very rich program, rich in new results and new knowledge of the upper atmosphere and of the space beyond the atmosphere. It was a very rich program. It's very interesting to realize that the military application of rockets, or that rocket, or our rocket in Germany, lasted from September '44 to March '45, February or March '45. That's about – well, a few months. The use of the same rocket for scientific purposes in White Sands covered seven years.

[Assistant] Wow. That's spectacular in contrast.

[User] A number of very interesting things of the higher atmosphere were discovered with these flights, including, for example, the first X-rays from the sun were found by [Herbert] Friedman from the V-2 rocket. A number of people, including [James A.] Van Allen, found out the distribution of cosmic rays in high altitudes, and the temperature gradient up in high altitudes and pressure and composition of the atmosphere and things like that were discovered at that time. It was a good program.

[Assistant] What did you do with Dr. Van Allen? It was about that time that you started working with him, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have you seen the museum here?

[Assistant] I haven't, unfortunately.

[User] No? Well, all these rockets are on display there. In Houston they have a V-2 at the moment.

[Assistant] That's right. I've seen it.

[User] Have you seen it? Actually, it was our V-2, and it had to be repaired because it began to rust. So it was rejuvenated, and Houston said, "Let us have it for three months, then we'll send it back to you." And they have it now.

[Assistant] I've seen it. It's very impressive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No? Well, all these rockets are on display there. In Houston they have a V-2 at the moment.

[Assistant] That's right. I've seen it.

[User] Have you seen it? Actually, it was our V-2, and it had to be repaired because it began to rust. So it was rejuvenated, and Houston said, "Let us have it for three months, then we'll send it back to you." And they have it now.

[Assistant] I've seen it. It's very impressive.

[User] So the Redstone is here. The Jupiter is here. You should see the museum. It's worth seeing. We natives are quite proud of the museum, and we say it's the finest and largest rocket museum not only in the country, but in the solar system, which is easy to claim. [Laughter]

[Assistant] There you go. Did you anticipate when you were developing the Redstone rocket that it would be used for purposes of man's, or human, space flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the Redstone is here. The Jupiter is here. You should see the museum. It's worth seeing. We natives are quite proud of the museum, and we say it's the finest and largest rocket museum not only in the country, but in the solar system, which is easy to claim. [Laughter]

[Assistant] There you go. Did you anticipate when you were developing the Redstone rocket that it would be used for purposes of man's, or human, space flight?

[User] The Redstone?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Well, again it is in here. The answer is yes, and it's one of the anecdotes. The Redstone flew in '53 the first time, and even before that, in about '52, von Braun and I met each other in the hallway one day, and just in passing, he said to me, "With the Redstone we can do it."\n\n I was dumb enough. I said, "Do what?"\n\n He said, "Launch a satellite, of course." [Laughter]\n\n I said, "Oh, that's very good, very fine, very interesting." And then he described to me just – and he said how he would do it: put three solid stages on top of it, spin them so that they would be controlled, and then go up high and then get horizontal and shoot out the third rocket into orbit, and one can do it. He said it would not be a very elegant way to put a ten-pound or fifteen-pound satellite into orbit with such a monster like the Redstone, but it's our only way how we can do it soon. There is no other way. And he added, as far-sighted as he was, he said, "If you don't do it somehow like this. Then the Russians will do it before we do it."\n\n Well, but then a very up-and-down history began for the first satellite. That's again in here. I wouldn't like to go into it. It takes too long. It's also in the other article I gave you about Sputnik. It's also described briefly in there and at length in here.

[Assistant] Thank you. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, anyway, the Explorer was launched in '58. It was a very dramatic story, the whole thing, very, very suspenseful and full of hopes and frustrations, all of that, and it would be not right if I began to tell about it now. It would take until midnight also. You can read much of it in here. That was the Explorer, and then the Jupiter also sent – that's heavier and stronger – sent up satellites and then, of course, other people sent up satellites and it became not only a nationwide, but a worldwide undertaking now. And if you just imagine that we have right now at any time, I think about 2,000 – I'm not quite sure – satellites in orbit, different ones.

[Assistant] It seems incredible.

[User] Russian, English, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, European, and, of course, American. It's incredible.

[Assistant] And it makes you realize how big the Earth is, too.

[User] Yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] To understand that none of them are running into each other or geosynchronous –


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Russian, English, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, European, and, of course, American. It's incredible.

[Assistant] And it makes you realize how big the Earth is, too.

[User] Yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] To understand that none of them are running into each other or geosynchronous –

[User] You wanted to know about Skylab and the space station?

[Assistant] Yes, and perhaps shuttle. You worked on the Saturn as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] To understand that none of them are running into each other or geosynchronous –

[User] You wanted to know about Skylab and the space station?

[Assistant] Yes, and perhaps shuttle. You worked on the Saturn as well.

[User] Shuttle and Saturn.

[Assistant] There are so many things that you've done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I should make a few general remarks here first.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] My personal work in Peenemunde at first was a guidance system. You know, probably, roughly at least, what a guidance system is and what it must do.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] My particular work was in accelerometers and integrators. An accelerometer measures the acceleration. It integrates the acceleration once to get the velocity and twice to get the distance. Can you follow that?

[Assistant] Yes, I can.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe you know him personally, George Mueller. He used that moment when the Congress was so happy and so up in the seventh cloud, almost, and he said, "Gentlemen, we have come to the conclusion that we should build a dry workshop." It was accepted. [Laughter] And so we built a dry workshop, and the dry workshop was what we know today as the Skylab, and it was a beautiful success altogether.

[Assistant] It sure was.

[User] We had a mishap on the launching, as you probably know. There was this –

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And for us inside, that was a very tragic situation because it could have been prevented so easily and a few things were just not done right by some people, but it's of no use to say afterwards when something like that happened, "It's your fault," and so on.

[Assistant] That's right. So how was the problem fixed? Did you work with other centers in fixing—? It was the meteorite shield, I believe, that didn't deploy correctly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a mishap on the launching, as you probably know. There was this –

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And for us inside, that was a very tragic situation because it could have been prevented so easily and a few things were just not done right by some people, but it's of no use to say afterwards when something like that happened, "It's your fault," and so on.

[Assistant] That's right. So how was the problem fixed? Did you work with other centers in fixing—? It was the meteorite shield, I believe, that didn't deploy correctly?

[User] Yes. It was the following. Here is the tank itself, the Skylab inside, and then there was a meteorite shield out here.

[Assistant] Okay. On the outside, around the –


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a dramatic kind of fix. The people who did it have to be admired, certainly. There was a little hole here in the white for observations, with an airlock to it. So they here in Huntsville built a kind of umbrella, and that umbrella reached through here and then unfolded here so that it would spread out and would protect that Skylab against heat. That was the problem, the main problem, the heat, because that meteorite shield was also a heat shield at the same time. So the umbrella was a shade for the Skylab, and that brought the temperature down again. [Phone rings. Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n ... quoted, and many times wrongly quoted. It's a question of how do we go to the moon, with Earth orbit rendezvous or lunar rendezvous or direct? And that is a story which is very clear and well known to us old-timers, but not to the new-timers, and the new-timers often say, "Well, that's where von Braun was wrong, but he was told the right way by the people in Houston, and then he had to agree." But the truth is quite different and that is worthwhile telling the right way.

[Assistant] Can we get that on tape? Whenever you're ready.

[User] Yes. You know, probably, the story of the different ways of how to go to the moon.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] The one is to go up there into orbit and then have a rendezvous here and go on from here and go to the moon and go down directly and then come back like so.

[Assistant] And that's the Earth-orbit rendezvous.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You know, probably, the story of the different ways of how to go to the moon.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] The one is to go up there into orbit and then have a rendezvous here and go on from here and go to the moon and go down directly and then come back like so.

[Assistant] And that's the Earth-orbit rendezvous.

[User] That's the Earth-orbit rendezvous. And then there's this other one, which is go from here into orbit but then a little later go out to the moon, go down and up again, and then, from here, back to Earth. That's the lunar-orbit rendezvous. And then the third one is a direct mode, what goes from here – here's the moon – direct down and up again and so on.

[Assistant] And that's the direct ascent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one is to go up there into orbit and then have a rendezvous here and go on from here and go to the moon and go down directly and then come back like so.

[Assistant] And that's the Earth-orbit rendezvous.

[User] That's the Earth-orbit rendezvous. And then there's this other one, which is go from here into orbit but then a little later go out to the moon, go down and up again, and then, from here, back to Earth. That's the lunar-orbit rendezvous. And then the third one is a direct mode, what goes from here – here's the moon – direct down and up again and so on.

[Assistant] And that's the direct ascent.

[User] Yes. Direct. Now, von Braun was at first for this Earth-orbit rendezvous, and he said we will have to have two launchings of two Saturn Vs – this one, and that's the second one, Saturn V – and then we can do it this way. Von Braun had three reasons for doing that. First, he said, if we do it that way, we will develop the orbital rendezvous method for this project, and that will be a milestone for the space flight to come, for many, many other applications. For example, when we have the space station, we need a number of rendezvous operations in Earth orbit. We have to develop that, how we go there, how we transfer from one vehicle into the other one, and things like that.

[Assistant] Was this prior to the time that rendezvous was perfected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Miss Kelly, if we had done it from the beginning and not spent a full year in talking about it, we could have done it, but not at the time. When the decision finally had to be made, it was too late then.

[Assistant] How come?

[User] It was two Saturns, and they would have to rendezvous up there, and that was something that must be developed, you know, the guidance systems and how do they get together close enough so that pieces and tank fillings and so on can be transferred. It must be developed. It would have taken time, and it was just too late at that time. So, that's about it.

[Assistant] It's a very interesting perspective, and I'm glad that –

[User] It's also in here.

[Assistant] Great. It's in the book as well. Who were the IBM computer people who made the major computer advances?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's also in here.

[Assistant] Great. It's in the book as well. Who were the IBM computer people who made the major computer advances?

[User] One of them was a fellow who had then his company here, his own company. He left that company, but the company's still here. It is – it's old age. I'm so sorry.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] But he was the brain behind that computer work.

[Assistant] Well, if you think of it some other time, let us know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of them was a fellow who had then his company here, his own company. He left that company, but the company's still here. It is – it's old age. I'm so sorry.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] But he was the brain behind that computer work.

[Assistant] Well, if you think of it some other time, let us know.

[User] Yes. Let me write down what I should –

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you about your work in the ALSEP [Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package] on the lunar surface.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But he was the brain behind that computer work.

[Assistant] Well, if you think of it some other time, let us know.

[User] Yes. Let me write down what I should –

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you about your work in the ALSEP [Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package] on the lunar surface.

[User] I was not too deeply involved in the direct work for the Saturn-Apollo program, but at the beginning, when we started thinking of lunar missions, I was involved in several investigations. One of them was, for example, the question of how the lunar surface looks like, whether it is a deep layer of loose dust or whether it is solid or whether it's something in between. That has importance with respect to the vehicle we may eventually use on the moon, what kind of tires should it have, what wheels, how should it move forward, should it be built like a car for Earth or should it be like something else going through deep dust.\n\n What we did in my laboratory was to compare a number of potential samples of lunar surface and to try out the bearing capability of several arrangements of dust and rock, things like that. Also we developed at that time a drill that could drill into rock and find out how the rocks look like in their center and also what the composition of rocks at greater depth may be. I was involved in such things, but not in the development of the Saturn, the big Saturn rocket itself. That was up to the specialists for rocket engines and rocket vehicles, spacecraft.

[Assistant] And how did you test your experiment package? Were you able to test it on the lunar surface prior to its use?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not too deeply involved in the direct work for the Saturn-Apollo program, but at the beginning, when we started thinking of lunar missions, I was involved in several investigations. One of them was, for example, the question of how the lunar surface looks like, whether it is a deep layer of loose dust or whether it is solid or whether it's something in between. That has importance with respect to the vehicle we may eventually use on the moon, what kind of tires should it have, what wheels, how should it move forward, should it be built like a car for Earth or should it be like something else going through deep dust.\n\n What we did in my laboratory was to compare a number of potential samples of lunar surface and to try out the bearing capability of several arrangements of dust and rock, things like that. Also we developed at that time a drill that could drill into rock and find out how the rocks look like in their center and also what the composition of rocks at greater depth may be. I was involved in such things, but not in the development of the Saturn, the big Saturn rocket itself. That was up to the specialists for rocket engines and rocket vehicles, spacecraft.

[Assistant] And how did you test your experiment package? Were you able to test it on the lunar surface prior to its use?

[User] Well, we, of course, tested very carefully all the individual sensors and radio links, control systems. All of the functions had to be subjected to – including low temperatures. That was done very carefully and with success. It worked quite well. Even after the astronauts had left the ALSEP worked, continued to work and to transmit data to Earth.

[Assistant] And today?

[User] Not today, no.

[Assistant] But years after the lunar landings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we, of course, tested very carefully all the individual sensors and radio links, control systems. All of the functions had to be subjected to – including low temperatures. That was done very carefully and with success. It worked quite well. Even after the astronauts had left the ALSEP worked, continued to work and to transmit data to Earth.

[Assistant] And today?

[User] Not today, no.

[Assistant] But years after the lunar landings.

[User] Some time afterwards.

[Assistant] That's great. It sounded like it worked very well. Now, how were you able to determine the composition of the lunar surface prior to the astronauts arriving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not today, no.

[Assistant] But years after the lunar landings.

[User] Some time afterwards.

[Assistant] That's great. It sounded like it worked very well. Now, how were you able to determine the composition of the lunar surface prior to the astronauts arriving?

[User] That could not be really determined. One could find out from landings of spacecraft that had been there before, unmanned systems. One could find out roughly what the surface could be, so we were quite confident that it was relatively solid. You may recall that the LM, which was eventually developed for the Saturn-Apollo, the LM, Lunar Excursion Module, had four legs, and each leg had a pad off of a metal plate, and we expected and hoped that these pads would be big enough to keep it from sinking into the ground, into dust ground. This hope was fully verified and fulfilled later on. The landing vehicles stood very firmly on the ground, so there was no problem.

[Assistant] It would be very interesting to ask you about some of the letters I'm sure you received on some people who had concerns about the lunar surface. Did you receive any such letters of people who thought it was just an ocean of dust and that people would be sinking if they landed on the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some time afterwards.

[Assistant] That's great. It sounded like it worked very well. Now, how were you able to determine the composition of the lunar surface prior to the astronauts arriving?

[User] That could not be really determined. One could find out from landings of spacecraft that had been there before, unmanned systems. One could find out roughly what the surface could be, so we were quite confident that it was relatively solid. You may recall that the LM, which was eventually developed for the Saturn-Apollo, the LM, Lunar Excursion Module, had four legs, and each leg had a pad off of a metal plate, and we expected and hoped that these pads would be big enough to keep it from sinking into the ground, into dust ground. This hope was fully verified and fulfilled later on. The landing vehicles stood very firmly on the ground, so there was no problem.

[Assistant] It would be very interesting to ask you about some of the letters I'm sure you received on some people who had concerns about the lunar surface. Did you receive any such letters of people who thought it was just an ocean of dust and that people would be sinking if they landed on the moon?

[User] There were one famous prediction for that from Thomas Gold. Thomas Gold is a well-known geologist and astronomer, also, and a person who has been very active in space programs before, and he thought that there would be a deep layer of dust on the moon and there would even be a danger that the astronauts may sink in and never be seen again because they would drown in the sea of dust. But that was not the case.

[Assistant] And were you able to test that along with the unmanned spacecraft that landed on the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That could not be really determined. One could find out from landings of spacecraft that had been there before, unmanned systems. One could find out roughly what the surface could be, so we were quite confident that it was relatively solid. You may recall that the LM, which was eventually developed for the Saturn-Apollo, the LM, Lunar Excursion Module, had four legs, and each leg had a pad off of a metal plate, and we expected and hoped that these pads would be big enough to keep it from sinking into the ground, into dust ground. This hope was fully verified and fulfilled later on. The landing vehicles stood very firmly on the ground, so there was no problem.

[Assistant] It would be very interesting to ask you about some of the letters I'm sure you received on some people who had concerns about the lunar surface. Did you receive any such letters of people who thought it was just an ocean of dust and that people would be sinking if they landed on the moon?

[User] There were one famous prediction for that from Thomas Gold. Thomas Gold is a well-known geologist and astronomer, also, and a person who has been very active in space programs before, and he thought that there would be a deep layer of dust on the moon and there would even be a danger that the astronauts may sink in and never be seen again because they would drown in the sea of dust. But that was not the case.

[Assistant] And were you able to test that along with the unmanned spacecraft that landed on the moon?

[User] By the time we sent the Apollo up there, I believe that nobody was afraid of the astronauts meeting a sea of dust up there.

[Assistant] Did you collaborate or work with or cooperate with any of the other centers on this project, and, if so, how did you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I could make that decision, I would simply say let America do it and let America invite other countries to contribute instruments, for example. Think of a number of our spacecraft which are in orbit now. Many of them have instruments built in England or in Germany or in Russia, even, or in Italy, and they are integrated on our spacecraft. And that's a good way to do it. That's how I would do a Mars mission.

[Assistant] So you're primarily thinking of the shuttle spacecraft that has the different telescopes and various instruments on it that are being used.

[User] Just on a Mars mission, going to Mars. Going to Mars. Now, the shuttle, of course, has also a number of instruments built by other nations, by other countries, and that's a method which works. I think it's a good one.

[Assistant] I'd like to go back and ask you a little bit about the shuttle. I know you worked primarily with the Hubble Space Telescope. I don't want to take too much or your time. We could probably talk for weeks about it. Would you like to stop?

[User] Oh, more than two and a half hours. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Would you mention something about your work on the Hubble Space Telescope? And we can wrap things up very shortly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. It's a beautiful instrument and very, very interesting.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Well, I don't want to keep you much longer, but I would like to ask you just one more question, among many others, and I'd like to ask you what you think your most significant contributions were to the space program. What was most important to you?

[User] Well, that's hard to tell. Also, you know, a man doesn't want very much to talk about his own accomplishments. I think, too, one is that I had the opportunity or the privilege, or the good luck of bringing scientists and rocket engineers together a number of times, a number of points in the program. I don't believe that many would acknowledge that now. You know how people are. "They know this was my idea. I didn't have to listen to those guys." That's how I'd respond. I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. And the other one is electric propulsion.

[Assistant] You did a lot of significant work in that.

[User] That has, unfortunately, not yet led to a good project. There's now one under way after many years of effort by JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory] they want to go to one of the asteroids with an ion propulsion system. I hope they will accomplish it and get through with it. The Russians are more active there. They use electric systems to control their satellites in orbit. You know, many of their satellites, particularly high-orbit satellites, stationary satellites, must be controlled carefully with small thrusts every once in a while to keep them in the right orbit, and electric systems are very useful for that, and the Russians do that. The Air Force does it, too, here, it has also done it, but NASA is somehow reluctant. The reason why they are so reluctant is probably one reason which is expressed by a common expression used in NASA; that is, the "NIH factor." You know what this is?

[Assistant] No. What is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That has, unfortunately, not yet led to a good project. There's now one under way after many years of effort by JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory] they want to go to one of the asteroids with an ion propulsion system. I hope they will accomplish it and get through with it. The Russians are more active there. They use electric systems to control their satellites in orbit. You know, many of their satellites, particularly high-orbit satellites, stationary satellites, must be controlled carefully with small thrusts every once in a while to keep them in the right orbit, and electric systems are very useful for that, and the Russians do that. The Air Force does it, too, here, it has also done it, but NASA is somehow reluctant. The reason why they are so reluctant is probably one reason which is expressed by a common expression used in NASA; that is, the "NIH factor." You know what this is?

[Assistant] No. What is it?

[User] NIH means Not Invented Here. [Laughter] You know what I mean?

[Assistant] Exactly.

[User] You know, space people, among other things, are humans, with all their frailties and weaknesses.

[Assistant] Absolutely, and sometimes students forget that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NIH means Not Invented Here. [Laughter] You know what I mean?

[Assistant] Exactly.

[User] You know, space people, among other things, are humans, with all their frailties and weaknesses.

[Assistant] Absolutely, and sometimes students forget that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, I want to thank you very much. We're very honored that you've been able to talk to us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right. That's the last thing you would think would ever happen. Another thing I'm really proud of, and that was the [Silver] Snoopy [Space Flight Awareness] Award that I got for working—it was on Apollo 15—for working on spacesuits.

[Assistant] Did one of those crew members award the Snoopy to you?

[User] Well, the letter of appreciation was from Al [Alan L.] Bean. Then, we were presented the Silver Snoopy pin by Astronaut Robert Parker. There was like six or seven of us from ILC that got the Snoopy on the same day.

[Assistant] That's exciting.

[User] Yes, it was. Very exciting.

[Assistant] Share with us what it was like to be on the launch pad, the day of the launch, and being part of getting them ready to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] We were talking about—you just finished talking about the cameras, and how those had been adapted, and some of the other tools. I ran across in one reference that actually during your mission, Gene Cernan used the hammer more frequently because it was more suited to his size. Was that something that was an actual situation? And how did that develop?

[User] All right. There’s no question that he could handle the hammer better. He had a larger hand, and the handle was never—I—we never got the design of the handle so it would universally be compatible for all the astronauts. And Gene just had a very big hand; and he could—he could grip it better and not get as fatigued using it. (I used it every once in a while.)\n\n But on the other hand, for my purposes, the scoop—for geological purposes, I found the scope much more versatile. I could pick up rocks with it—small rocks—and I—but I could also dig trenches and do all sorts of other things with it. So, the scoop was perfectly fine for me; and it gave me something to lean on, to look down. So, I was perfectly happy with the scoop.

[Assistant] A wide variety of tools—

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] —that all came in useful. As you were becoming more involved (after you had finished your initial training with the pilot training) and then were working, going through with the other class and getting some more of that initial training, and now working on the ALSEP and the tools, when did you become involved with more specifically training on Apollo itself for selecting sites or becoming involved specifically on missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hi. I was teaching in English.

[Assistant] You were teaching in English. Ok, but you were teaching French.

[User] I was teaching English in English.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. But in a French school?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. I've got it. Ok. Oh, that's right. TEFL is teaching English as a foreign language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was teaching English in English.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. But in a French school?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. I've got it. Ok. Oh, that's right. TEFL is teaching English as a foreign language.

[User] All this many years later, I don't want anybody to think that I was teaching in French because that was a no-no for Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Oh was it really?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. I've got it. Ok. Oh, that's right. TEFL is teaching English as a foreign language.

[User] All this many years later, I don't want anybody to think that I was teaching in French because that was a no-no for Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Oh was it really?

[User] I had to teach in English from the moment we started.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Ok, now that we've got that straight. Jane, tell us who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you? Where were you born? Where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All this many years later, I don't want anybody to think that I was teaching in French because that was a no-no for Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Oh was it really?

[User] I had to teach in English from the moment we started.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Ok, now that we've got that straight. Jane, tell us who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you? Where were you born? Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in Virginia, in Arlington, Virginia. And I spent two years in Hawaii, in my high school years. My parents transferred down there for a job, but I did graduate from Arlington High School.

[Assistant] And then you came back to Arlington to finish high school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to teach in English from the moment we started.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Ok, now that we've got that straight. Jane, tell us who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where did you? Where were you born? Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in Virginia, in Arlington, Virginia. And I spent two years in Hawaii, in my high school years. My parents transferred down there for a job, but I did graduate from Arlington High School.

[Assistant] And then you came back to Arlington to finish high school.

[User] And then I went to William and Mary, College of William and Mary in Virginia.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Virginia, in Arlington, Virginia. And I spent two years in Hawaii, in my high school years. My parents transferred down there for a job, but I did graduate from Arlington High School.

[Assistant] And then you came back to Arlington to finish high school.

[User] And then I went to William and Mary, College of William and Mary in Virginia.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?

[User] I had one sister, a year and a half older.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And so your family traveled together, then out to Hawaii. Did you do other things together as a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had one sister, a year and a half older.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And so your family traveled together, then out to Hawaii. Did you do other things together as a family?

[User] Oh, we had wonderful trips. My parents were both from the South. My dad was from Texas and my mom from Mississippi. So every year just about, in the summer, we would go down there to visit their families. So we had these car trips, hot car trips through the South in the fifties, you know? It was fun. A lot of fun.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] But my father worked for the Federal Trade Commission, and when he retired. He was a consumer protection specialist, one of the early ones, and he was recruited by the Hawaii government when it had just become a state to come down and help them write some conforming legislation. So we got to go there for two years with them, and that was how.

[Assistant] How delightful. And then you came back and you went to high school, and what kind of kid were you in high school? Did you do sports?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we had wonderful trips. My parents were both from the South. My dad was from Texas and my mom from Mississippi. So every year just about, in the summer, we would go down there to visit their families. So we had these car trips, hot car trips through the South in the fifties, you know? It was fun. A lot of fun.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] But my father worked for the Federal Trade Commission, and when he retired. He was a consumer protection specialist, one of the early ones, and he was recruited by the Hawaii government when it had just become a state to come down and help them write some conforming legislation. So we got to go there for two years with them, and that was how.

[Assistant] How delightful. And then you came back and you went to high school, and what kind of kid were you in high school? Did you do sports?

[User] No, I was really good conscientious student. I excelled in in academics. That was my big thing from when I was in kindergarten, just about. I was very shy. And once you got to know me, you liked me. But I didn't have a lot of friends because I was very shy, shy. One thing I did do was I did theater, I did teen theater. So that was where I found my niche in my later high school years.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. Did you study French in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But my father worked for the Federal Trade Commission, and when he retired. He was a consumer protection specialist, one of the early ones, and he was recruited by the Hawaii government when it had just become a state to come down and help them write some conforming legislation. So we got to go there for two years with them, and that was how.

[Assistant] How delightful. And then you came back and you went to high school, and what kind of kid were you in high school? Did you do sports?

[User] No, I was really good conscientious student. I excelled in in academics. That was my big thing from when I was in kindergarten, just about. I was very shy. And once you got to know me, you liked me. But I didn't have a lot of friends because I was very shy, shy. One thing I did do was I did theater, I did teen theater. So that was where I found my niche in my later high school years.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. Did you study French in high school?

[User] I started French. That's when I was in eighth grade was when they let us, that was when we began foreign language study and I took French and I went all the way through. I majored in French in college. I just loved it. I did really well in it. I loved it. There was no reason for it. You know, I don't have French people in my family or anything, but I just loved it. And it had this prestige at that time that I think it's kind of lost now. But you know, it was the language of the polished girl's education, and Paris is always there, you know, in the background. And so it would just have a certain cachet to it. And I loved it, but I also took Latin and then Spanish later on. But French was my love.

[Assistant] Latin in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was really good conscientious student. I excelled in in academics. That was my big thing from when I was in kindergarten, just about. I was very shy. And once you got to know me, you liked me. But I didn't have a lot of friends because I was very shy, shy. One thing I did do was I did theater, I did teen theater. So that was where I found my niche in my later high school years.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. Did you study French in high school?

[User] I started French. That's when I was in eighth grade was when they let us, that was when we began foreign language study and I took French and I went all the way through. I majored in French in college. I just loved it. I did really well in it. I loved it. There was no reason for it. You know, I don't have French people in my family or anything, but I just loved it. And it had this prestige at that time that I think it's kind of lost now. But you know, it was the language of the polished girl's education, and Paris is always there, you know, in the background. And so it would just have a certain cachet to it. And I loved it, but I also took Latin and then Spanish later on. But French was my love.

[Assistant] Latin in high school?

[User] In junior high school. And then, yeah, junior high school for two years and then in college.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance as a student to go to France


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started French. That's when I was in eighth grade was when they let us, that was when we began foreign language study and I took French and I went all the way through. I majored in French in college. I just loved it. I did really well in it. I loved it. There was no reason for it. You know, I don't have French people in my family or anything, but I just loved it. And it had this prestige at that time that I think it's kind of lost now. But you know, it was the language of the polished girl's education, and Paris is always there, you know, in the background. And so it would just have a certain cachet to it. And I loved it, but I also took Latin and then Spanish later on. But French was my love.

[Assistant] Latin in high school?

[User] In junior high school. And then, yeah, junior high school for two years and then in college.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance as a student to go to France

[User]
When I was a sophomore in college?

I went to France for a program between the two years in the summer. They didn't have a lot of junior year abroad things at my school didn't do, any of them, they do now. But so I went on a tour with another organization.

[Assistant] During the summer of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In junior high school. And then, yeah, junior high school for two years and then in college.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance as a student to go to France

[User]
When I was a sophomore in college?

I went to France for a program between the two years in the summer. They didn't have a lot of junior year abroad things at my school didn't do, any of them, they do now. But so I went on a tour with another organization.

[Assistant] During the summer of college?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in high school and college, did you have summer jobs that you need to work to earn some money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
When I was a sophomore in college?

I went to France for a program between the two years in the summer. They didn't have a lot of junior year abroad things at my school didn't do, any of them, they do now. But so I went on a tour with another organization.

[Assistant] During the summer of college?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in high school and college, did you have summer jobs that you need to work to earn some money?

[User]
I didn't have to work in high school, although I did in my senior year of high school and the summer before I went to college, I did because I wanted to. I worked in a daycare center as an aide. And then when I was in college, I got a job working in the library at one point for not too many hours a week, and that was the worst job I ever had. I typed numbers on catalog cards and it was a four hour shift. And you got a 15 minute break in between the four hours, and that was it. The rest of the time, it's just the numbers. And it was terrible. When they told you, we don't have any today, you can go out and file cards in the card catalog, it was so wonderful. That was ecstasy.

And then I also in the summers, I had a really nice job in Washington. I would go home to be with my parents and I had a job at the World Bank. It was in the Africa department and I worked in the French Francophone West Africa Department of the World Bank and I helped. We had people, economists and different professionals, all French speaking, and they would prepare missions and go on missions to these countries in Africa that I was very excited about. And that was the job I sought. I kind of made it up before I found it, and I was happy to help. Oh, it was a wonderful job.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you were. Did you say what you majored in in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in high school and college, did you have summer jobs that you need to work to earn some money?

[User]
I didn't have to work in high school, although I did in my senior year of high school and the summer before I went to college, I did because I wanted to. I worked in a daycare center as an aide. And then when I was in college, I got a job working in the library at one point for not too many hours a week, and that was the worst job I ever had. I typed numbers on catalog cards and it was a four hour shift. And you got a 15 minute break in between the four hours, and that was it. The rest of the time, it's just the numbers. And it was terrible. When they told you, we don't have any today, you can go out and file cards in the card catalog, it was so wonderful. That was ecstasy.

And then I also in the summers, I had a really nice job in Washington. I would go home to be with my parents and I had a job at the World Bank. It was in the Africa department and I worked in the French Francophone West Africa Department of the World Bank and I helped. We had people, economists and different professionals, all French speaking, and they would prepare missions and go on missions to these countries in Africa that I was very excited about. And that was the job I sought. I kind of made it up before I found it, and I was happy to help. Oh, it was a wonderful job.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you were. Did you say what you majored in in college?

[User] I majored in French.

[Assistant] You majored in French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I didn't have to work in high school, although I did in my senior year of high school and the summer before I went to college, I did because I wanted to. I worked in a daycare center as an aide. And then when I was in college, I got a job working in the library at one point for not too many hours a week, and that was the worst job I ever had. I typed numbers on catalog cards and it was a four hour shift. And you got a 15 minute break in between the four hours, and that was it. The rest of the time, it's just the numbers. And it was terrible. When they told you, we don't have any today, you can go out and file cards in the card catalog, it was so wonderful. That was ecstasy.

And then I also in the summers, I had a really nice job in Washington. I would go home to be with my parents and I had a job at the World Bank. It was in the Africa department and I worked in the French Francophone West Africa Department of the World Bank and I helped. We had people, economists and different professionals, all French speaking, and they would prepare missions and go on missions to these countries in Africa that I was very excited about. And that was the job I sought. I kind of made it up before I found it, and I was happy to help. Oh, it was a wonderful job.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you were. Did you say what you majored in in college?

[User] I majored in French.

[Assistant] You majored in French?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so eventually you graduated from college. You've got a degree, a bachelor's degree in French. And eventually you get this idea to join the Peace Corps. Did you do that right away, right out of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I majored in French.

[Assistant] You majored in French?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so eventually you graduated from college. You've got a degree, a bachelor's degree in French. And eventually you get this idea to join the Peace Corps. Did you do that right away, right out of college?

[User] Well, I was engaged to be married, and I had met this guy when I was a freshman and dated him throughout college and we were going to get married in May. I graduated a semester early, so I graduated in December. We're going to get married in May and move to California. He was going, he was an accountant and I was going to be a housewife. I don't know what. Maybe try to get a master's in French and teach somewhere I didn't have. It was just getting married was the plan. And it turns out it was. I could tell it wasn't going to be a good marriage and I was very, and as the time got closer, I was ambivalent about it. And so I had done an application to the Peace Corps when I graduated in December, and I just kind of kept both of those lines going. I hadn't told him about it, of course. And when I got accepted, I thought, well that's it. So I went, I decided I gave him back his ring. I went into the Peace Corps much to my. My parents weren't excited about my going away to Africa, but they were less excited about my marrying this guy. So that turned out to be good. And then he came over to visit me my first year there, and that was terrible. I kicked him out.

[Assistant] You trusted your instincts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And so eventually you graduated from college. You've got a degree, a bachelor's degree in French. And eventually you get this idea to join the Peace Corps. Did you do that right away, right out of college?

[User] Well, I was engaged to be married, and I had met this guy when I was a freshman and dated him throughout college and we were going to get married in May. I graduated a semester early, so I graduated in December. We're going to get married in May and move to California. He was going, he was an accountant and I was going to be a housewife. I don't know what. Maybe try to get a master's in French and teach somewhere I didn't have. It was just getting married was the plan. And it turns out it was. I could tell it wasn't going to be a good marriage and I was very, and as the time got closer, I was ambivalent about it. And so I had done an application to the Peace Corps when I graduated in December, and I just kind of kept both of those lines going. I hadn't told him about it, of course. And when I got accepted, I thought, well that's it. So I went, I decided I gave him back his ring. I went into the Peace Corps much to my. My parents weren't excited about my going away to Africa, but they were less excited about my marrying this guy. So that turned out to be good. And then he came over to visit me my first year there, and that was terrible. I kicked him out.

[Assistant] You trusted your instincts.

[User] I'm so glad. Peace Corps saved me from a life of I don't know what.

[Assistant] That's great. Let's go back to you. It's December and you're applying to the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was engaged to be married, and I had met this guy when I was a freshman and dated him throughout college and we were going to get married in May. I graduated a semester early, so I graduated in December. We're going to get married in May and move to California. He was going, he was an accountant and I was going to be a housewife. I don't know what. Maybe try to get a master's in French and teach somewhere I didn't have. It was just getting married was the plan. And it turns out it was. I could tell it wasn't going to be a good marriage and I was very, and as the time got closer, I was ambivalent about it. And so I had done an application to the Peace Corps when I graduated in December, and I just kind of kept both of those lines going. I hadn't told him about it, of course. And when I got accepted, I thought, well that's it. So I went, I decided I gave him back his ring. I went into the Peace Corps much to my. My parents weren't excited about my going away to Africa, but they were less excited about my marrying this guy. So that turned out to be good. And then he came over to visit me my first year there, and that was terrible. I kicked him out.

[Assistant] You trusted your instincts.

[User] I'm so glad. Peace Corps saved me from a life of I don't know what.

[Assistant] That's great. Let's go back to you. It's December and you're applying to the Peace Corps.

[User] I'll tell you why. You said when I got the idea.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What made you do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm so glad. Peace Corps saved me from a life of I don't know what.

[Assistant] That's great. Let's go back to you. It's December and you're applying to the Peace Corps.

[User] I'll tell you why. You said when I got the idea.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What made you do it?

[User] When I was, 1960 was when Kennedy started it, wasn't it?

[Assistant] It was '61.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '61. So '48, I was 12 or 13. When he gave the speech where he started it, my family was watching TV and we heard him and I said to my mom and dad, I said, I want to do that and I want to go to Africa. And that came from nowhere.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] I have no. I mean, the idea of wanting to do something exciting came from being a person, you know, a kid. But Africa, there was nothing about Africa that was any different than any other place in the world to me, except for the fact that I was a big stamp collector and they had the most beautiful stamps, Africa did.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so maybe that was my mind was just dreaming on that, and the names were very exciting. But so I didn't have that like on the top of my head for that many years, but it had always kind of planted there at that time.

[Assistant] In 1969 or '70 when you were filling out this application form, was there the question whether there was any place in the world that you would not want to serve in or was there? Did you have a favorite place that you hoped to be assigned to? Did they ask you if you wanted to go to Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember about anything I didn't want to go to, I don't know if they asked me now. I know that I did express a preference because I had been working in the World Bank and I had gotten to know these different Francophone African countries. I knew that I wanted to go to a place where they spoke French because that would be something that would be interesting to me, you know, to do that. And then also, I wanted to go to the poorest country. I wanted to go to the country where I could be the most use, you know. So this was very idealistic. So I asked my bosses in the World Bank, I asked because they knew all these countries and I said, where should I go? And they said, well, if you want an experience that is, I said, I want it to be very different. I don't want to go to a place that's a lot like where I lived, you know? And they said a place that would be very different and that would be a nice place to be and where the people are very poor, it would be either Cameroon or Chad, probably Chad. So I volunteered to go to Chad. And when I got the, I put that down as a preference. When I got off the plane at my training site, the people who met us, one of them said, where is Jane Hale? And I said, and they said, we just wanted to see you. You're the first person that ever volunteered for Chad. So, so I got what I wanted. But that was because there weren't a lot. There wasn't a lot of clamor. If I had volunteered for Nepal at that time, I probably wouldn't have gotten it. That was the place to be.

[Assistant] That was the hot place.

[User] Yeah, for the drugs and stuff.

[Assistant] Oh my! So you went to training about the time you would have been married, right? In May maybe?

[User] Probably, yeah, probably May or June. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Where did you train?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, for the drugs and stuff.

[Assistant] Oh my! So you went to training about the time you would have been married, right? In May maybe?

[User] Probably, yeah, probably May or June. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Where did you train?

[User] We had a staging in Philadelphia like three days. Everybody had that. I think at that time where you went to the dentist and you got a new pair of glasses and a second pair of glasses and you just got all your medical check out there to make sure that you were in one piece to go on. And then we went. They took us to Canada, to Quebec, a little tiny town called Sainte-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere in rural Quebec. And it was a convent. It was a Catholic convent and I think a school. And in the summertime they rented it out to Peace Corps because they had these dormitory cells like, you know, and we'd had our immersion French immersion there for six weeks I think. I know it was one of those things. You know, you take the pledge not to speak any English, and it was a large group of people, all the Francophone Africa teachers work together.

[Assistant] They're not necessarily going to Chad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably, yeah, probably May or June. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Where did you train?

[User] We had a staging in Philadelphia like three days. Everybody had that. I think at that time where you went to the dentist and you got a new pair of glasses and a second pair of glasses and you just got all your medical check out there to make sure that you were in one piece to go on. And then we went. They took us to Canada, to Quebec, a little tiny town called Sainte-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere in rural Quebec. And it was a convent. It was a Catholic convent and I think a school. And in the summertime they rented it out to Peace Corps because they had these dormitory cells like, you know, and we'd had our immersion French immersion there for six weeks I think. I know it was one of those things. You know, you take the pledge not to speak any English, and it was a large group of people, all the Francophone Africa teachers work together.

[Assistant] They're not necessarily going to Chad?

[User] No, there were in my group, there were 13, I think, going to Chad. But we had Ivory Coast, we had Senegal, we had Togo, Benin or Dahomey at that time, all of the various places.

[Assistant] And did people know when they arrived in Canada which of those countries they were going to be going to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a staging in Philadelphia like three days. Everybody had that. I think at that time where you went to the dentist and you got a new pair of glasses and a second pair of glasses and you just got all your medical check out there to make sure that you were in one piece to go on. And then we went. They took us to Canada, to Quebec, a little tiny town called Sainte-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere in rural Quebec. And it was a convent. It was a Catholic convent and I think a school. And in the summertime they rented it out to Peace Corps because they had these dormitory cells like, you know, and we'd had our immersion French immersion there for six weeks I think. I know it was one of those things. You know, you take the pledge not to speak any English, and it was a large group of people, all the Francophone Africa teachers work together.

[Assistant] They're not necessarily going to Chad?

[User] No, there were in my group, there were 13, I think, going to Chad. But we had Ivory Coast, we had Senegal, we had Togo, Benin or Dahomey at that time, all of the various places.

[Assistant] And did people know when they arrived in Canada which of those countries they were going to be going to?

[User] Yes. Because we stayed together as a group in our training, we met with for cross-cultural training with people from that country.

[Assistant] Oh, fine. Yeah, OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there were in my group, there were 13, I think, going to Chad. But we had Ivory Coast, we had Senegal, we had Togo, Benin or Dahomey at that time, all of the various places.

[Assistant] And did people know when they arrived in Canada which of those countries they were going to be going to?

[User] Yes. Because we stayed together as a group in our training, we met with for cross-cultural training with people from that country.

[Assistant] Oh, fine. Yeah, OK.

[User] Because it was really a huge group.

[Assistant] Senegal, for example, and Chad are going to be quite different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Because we stayed together as a group in our training, we met with for cross-cultural training with people from that country.

[Assistant] Oh, fine. Yeah, OK.

[User] Because it was really a huge group.

[Assistant] Senegal, for example, and Chad are going to be quite different.

[User] Right. And we did local language training too. It was a very good training program. We had people from, we had a Chadian, a couple of Chadians working with us, people who were teachers who knew Americans, but also knew Chad and they would teach us our the language. What we were learning was Chadian Arabic, and they would teach us and they would answer our questions and give us advice about, you know, things.

[Assistant] Oh, that's terrific. Chadian Arabic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it was really a huge group.

[Assistant] Senegal, for example, and Chad are going to be quite different.

[User] Right. And we did local language training too. It was a very good training program. We had people from, we had a Chadian, a couple of Chadians working with us, people who were teachers who knew Americans, but also knew Chad and they would teach us our the language. What we were learning was Chadian Arabic, and they would teach us and they would answer our questions and give us advice about, you know, things.

[Assistant] Oh, that's terrific. Chadian Arabic?

[User] Oh yes. It was not. I was not a star at Chadian Arabic. My French served me very well.

[Assistant] Well, when we when we get over to Chad, I'll ask you more about the languages there. How many people were in your training group all together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. It was not. I was not a star at Chadian Arabic. My French served me very well.

[Assistant] Well, when we when we get over to Chad, I'll ask you more about the languages there. How many people were in your training group all together?

[User] I really don't know. Over a hundred, I'm sure.

[Assistant] Oh, huge.

[User] Yeah. But we did get to know each other because we were together all the time and we were speaking French all the time and going to and from the cafeteria eating together. They had a lot of social activities. They didn't give us any time to be, maybe we might have gotten a nap in the afternoon or something, but they didn't want us. It was sort of a it was pressured. It was high pressured. They wanted to make sure that I think we could stand it. My husband said, I hadn't been aware of this, but my husband, who had been a doctor in the Peace Corps, earlier said that they had some ideas that you had to put really pressure on the kids to try to make them break. And I don't think they did that. I don't think they were at that point with us. But they were they were very strict about everything. And so we all knew each other. We were kind of like all together in this, you know.

[Assistant] Was there the process of deselection when you were in training? Did they call it that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But we did get to know each other because we were together all the time and we were speaking French all the time and going to and from the cafeteria eating together. They had a lot of social activities. They didn't give us any time to be, maybe we might have gotten a nap in the afternoon or something, but they didn't want us. It was sort of a it was pressured. It was high pressured. They wanted to make sure that I think we could stand it. My husband said, I hadn't been aware of this, but my husband, who had been a doctor in the Peace Corps, earlier said that they had some ideas that you had to put really pressure on the kids to try to make them break. And I don't think they did that. I don't think they were at that point with us. But they were they were very strict about everything. And so we all knew each other. We were kind of like all together in this, you know.

[Assistant] Was there the process of deselection when you were in training? Did they call it that?

[User] No, I think that was part of what my husband had been talking about. Nobody that, I don't remember anybody being worried about not making it. We were worried about not getting a good enough score in our language. That was the main part of training. And for me, it was OK because I was a French major. But there were some people that were really struggling and there was there was a minimum score.

[Assistant] In French?

[User] In French. Yeah.

[Assistant] They weren't so worried about the Chadian Arabic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think that was part of what my husband had been talking about. Nobody that, I don't remember anybody being worried about not making it. We were worried about not getting a good enough score in our language. That was the main part of training. And for me, it was OK because I was a French major. But there were some people that were really struggling and there was there was a minimum score.

[Assistant] In French?

[User] In French. Yeah.

[Assistant] They weren't so worried about the Chadian Arabic.

[User] No, no. But the French. So they had to they had to have some, some score. And I think there were some people that didn't make it. There were people who were worried about not making it. And I think there were a couple who didn't. And then there were, there was one I remember who dropped out, who just went home, but mostly those who came did it.

[Assistant] So you didn't have interviews with psychiatrists or psychologists?