[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I got older, and they all got younger.

[Assistant] Any differences in the people that are choosing to be astronauts as far as their training or the way they tailor their education or anything of that sort?

[User] I’m thinking here. Not really. No, I don’t think so. I think, my group, the pilots, a lot of them had the Vietnam experience because that’s the age we were. These folks, a lot of them had the Gulf War experience, some of them, anyway, some got some combat experience. They’re very sharp. They’re very smart. The others, no, I think the background and the education, the experience of the groups are fairly similar. They’re just younger. [Laughs]

[Assistant]
That’s all. Thanks.

Is there anything else you’d like to talk about that we’ve perhaps missed?

[User] No, you’ve probably covered it. I haven’t thought about a lot about this in years. So I’m sorry I probably forgot a lot of things.

[Assistant] No, I think you’ve done great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m thinking here. Not really. No, I don’t think so. I think, my group, the pilots, a lot of them had the Vietnam experience because that’s the age we were. These folks, a lot of them had the Gulf War experience, some of them, anyway, some got some combat experience. They’re very sharp. They’re very smart. The others, no, I think the background and the education, the experience of the groups are fairly similar. They’re just younger. [Laughs]

[Assistant]
That’s all. Thanks.

Is there anything else you’d like to talk about that we’ve perhaps missed?

[User] No, you’ve probably covered it. I haven’t thought about a lot about this in years. So I’m sorry I probably forgot a lot of things.

[Assistant] No, I think you’ve done great.

[User] Some people have a real sharp memory for everything that happened to them in the past, and I really don’t. I forget about a lot of it, but it’s all been fun. It reminded me of some of the really good times on some of these flights. Like 1985 for me was kind of a banner year. [Laughs] I don’t think I could stand that pace very long, but it was okay. For a year it was great.

[Assistant] We want to thank you again for joining us today, taking time out of your schedule.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Today is August 3rd, 2011. August 5th will be the one-year anniversary of the entrapment of the miners, and the Chileans, with help from the State Department and the Smithsonian [Institution], are putting on a display at the Museum of Natural History that shows the actual Phoenix [Fenix] capsule. There will be other artifacts from the mine site, including rocks from the mine, as I understand it, and maybe some examples of the hardware, other hardware that was used, like the drill bit.\n\n Tonight at the Museum of Natural History they’re having a reception to inaugurate this display that will be open to the public on the anniversary date of the entrapment, August 5th. We’re looking forward to going over there and seeing the artifacts and hopefully being able to see some of the people that we met when we were in Chile.

[Assistant] Renewing friendships. I think J.D. Polk made that statement that you went down representing your country but came back as friends.

[User] Absolutely. That was a great comment and, I think, really captured what we were feeling at the time when we were down there.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you would like to cover or anything else you would like to add before we close for the day? I don’t want to take your entire morning, but I certainly want to give you an opportunity.

[User] This has gone by very quickly here. I think we’ve covered it. There’s probably little stories that would come to mind, but I think we’ve covered it in good detail.

[Assistant] The only one I didn’t cover that I was thinking about was regarding the headlines I was reviewing on how NASA was the reason why there was no booze or cigarettes [sent to the miners].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I came into the Peace Corps from college or very, you know, a few months after college. And I I think I don't have much idea about what interested me from my background, from it. I my family was interested in people. So that might have helped some. I didn't I think I heard about it in college. I think I was young and idealistic. I. Think that I applied while I was still at College of William and Mary in Virginia, and my recollection is that I spent the summer after I graduated trying to figure out why I wasn't being called for the Peace Corps. I had wanted to go to South America and learn Spanish. I thought that would be a useful language to learn. And eventually I made phone calls to the Peace Corps trying to find out why I hadn't heard anything. And I don't remember all the ins and outs except that eventually somebody listened to me. But I got sent to Fiji and learned to understand me instead of being sent to South America and learning Spanish. So in retrospect, that was a really good thing for me, because I grew up in a partly segregated household in Delaware, are not a household but community. And I probably would not have intentionally gone into a country where race relations were an issue, which they were in ‘69 and ‘70 when I went to Fiji. So it was a very good lesson to learn for me and going there. But it wasn't where I wanted to go and I didn't want to teach secondary school, which is what I ended up teaching. So there were a lot of things I didn't want to do that turned out to be very good in my life.

[Assistant] And did you know anything about Fiji before you went?

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] Did you know where it was?

[User] Probably not. I don't remember now, but probably not.

[Assistant] Most people would say we're very lucky to go to Fiji. And tell me about your educational background. What did you study and what do you specialize in that was appropriate for Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] Did you know where it was?

[User] Probably not. I don't remember now, but probably not.

[Assistant] Most people would say we're very lucky to go to Fiji. And tell me about your educational background. What did you study and what do you specialize in that was appropriate for Fiji?

[User] Well, I, I think when I was hoping to go to South America, I wanted to be involved in social programs and probably programs with children or. Oh, in any case, I didn't want to teach. But what I studied in college was biology, primarily plant biology, even though the degree had to be a general biology degree. And so that's, I think, why I got picked up for Fiji because they were looking for science teachers. So I taught in a secondary school and I taught English as well as biology. But they wanted science teachers in Fiji at the time.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You mentioned you did your training in Hawaii. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we met first in Southern California, but after I don't remember a short period of time and some choosing people not to go on, choosing people to go into training, we went to Moloka’i and that was a fairly remote place at that time. And it poured a lot rain, which it does in Fiji. So that probably helped prepare us. They brought Hindustani and Fijian speaking people from Fiji to teach us language in Hawaii. We had over 100 people on our training group, which is really different from what I think they're doing today. So there were a lot of us there in an old school that they used as a place for us to have to to live. My main, well, I remember a couple of things. One was that one of our members went hiking or climbing and fell and did not return and died. And that was a very, very traumatic experience for the whole group to go through, to not know where he was and then to finally find his body. And then somewhere around Christmas or New Year's, we had a big pig, whatever lovo there. And since I was in the Hindustani program, I hadn't learned a lot about that. But it was a big event to be away from your family at Christmas time and to go have that in spite of all the rain.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you said Hindustani. So what language did you speak?

[User] That's I was taught, Hindustani, but I was expected to teach in English. That was the goal to be taught. So I didn't use Hindustani a lot. And when I did, the kids thought it was hilarious. Oh, you know, but mostly I spoke English and taught English at the secondary school.

[Assistant] And you were teaching Indian students or Fijian students?

[User] Mostly Indian. Nadi College was a mostly Indian school and that was the head teacher or principal was Indian. But there were some Fijian kids and there were some mixed race kids and there were Chinese mixed race kids. So but mostly I understand.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit more about the culture of these kids?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's I was taught, Hindustani, but I was expected to teach in English. That was the goal to be taught. So I didn't use Hindustani a lot. And when I did, the kids thought it was hilarious. Oh, you know, but mostly I spoke English and taught English at the secondary school.

[Assistant] And you were teaching Indian students or Fijian students?

[User] Mostly Indian. Nadi College was a mostly Indian school and that was the head teacher or principal was Indian. But there were some Fijian kids and there were some mixed race kids and there were Chinese mixed race kids. So but mostly I understand.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit more about the culture of these kids?

[User] You mean the kids that I taught?

[Assistant] Yeah, let's let's use those as probably the closest example.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly Indian. Nadi College was a mostly Indian school and that was the head teacher or principal was Indian. But there were some Fijian kids and there were some mixed race kids and there were Chinese mixed race kids. So but mostly I understand.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit more about the culture of these kids?

[User] You mean the kids that I taught?

[Assistant] Yeah, let's let's use those as probably the closest example.

[User] Well, let's see.

[Assistant] Where do they come from? What are their homes like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean the kids that I taught?

[Assistant] Yeah, let's let's use those as probably the closest example.

[User] Well, let's see.

[Assistant] Where do they come from? What are their homes like?

[User] I did visit a few homes. I didn't go to a lot of homes. I think the Fijian kids lived along the rivers and in some villages, the Indian kids lived in some villages and they also, you know, had families that lived in town. It seemed to me that they were much they worked hard to pay the fees for the kids to be able to go to school. I can remember and I don't know that that was Hindi, Hindustani or Fijian, but that, you know, I went to visit somebody and I got the only chair in the house at one time, which was kind of. You felt bad to get the only chair in the house to sit in, you know, and I did visit one of our Chinese Fijian families several times. So they had a little store out in the country in the cane fields, and they became good friends. But I didn't I didn't spend a lot of time out with student families. I had a roommate, another Peace Corps roommate the first year. The second year I lived alone in a in apartments. And so we became very close friends with the owners of the apartment complex, which was quite small. And I I searched for it when we went back for the Habitat for Humanity project a few years ago with one of my students whom I was able to find. And she was it didn't look very much like what I remembered it. So she was trying to help me find where I had lived was an apartment. It was, I'm sure, entirely different from what my kids were living in. It was more for the white folk apartment type thing. But I was very close to the I called the mommy and my mom are uncle and aunt that owned the complex and she let me use her treadle sewing machine so that I could make clothes for myself. So I remember that well.

[Assistant] So you mentioned you got the only chair. What where did the rest of the family sit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they either stood or sat on the floor, I suppose. I don't remember very much about that. I suppose I was startled that there was only one chair in the place.

[Assistant] So were there Fijian mats on the floor in an Indian house?

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Yeah, in the villages they sit on Fiji mats and drink out of bowls and eat with their fingers. So was the Indian household like that?

[User] I don't remember eating at that household. I did go to several weddings, Indian weddings, and we did eat with our fingers there.

[Assistant] Tell me about those because I've seen some of the very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Yeah, in the villages they sit on Fiji mats and drink out of bowls and eat with their fingers. So was the Indian household like that?

[User] I don't remember eating at that household. I did go to several weddings, Indian weddings, and we did eat with our fingers there.

[Assistant] Tell me about those because I've seen some of the very interesting.

[User] Yes. Well, I think I only went to a piece of them. You know, it wasn't days long, but brides usually wore a red or dark pink or something. And I didn't have much idea of what they were saying, but there was lots of good food usually. Yeah, that's what I remember. Yeah. And I, I would get sometimes to wear a sari to those, which was really fun to do.

[Assistant] A sari, that's a wrap around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember eating at that household. I did go to several weddings, Indian weddings, and we did eat with our fingers there.

[Assistant] Tell me about those because I've seen some of the very interesting.

[User] Yes. Well, I think I only went to a piece of them. You know, it wasn't days long, but brides usually wore a red or dark pink or something. And I didn't have much idea of what they were saying, but there was lots of good food usually. Yeah, that's what I remember. Yeah. And I, I would get sometimes to wear a sari to those, which was really fun to do.

[Assistant] A sari, that's a wrap around.

[User] The clothing that Indian women, some Indian women wear or salwar and kameez, but I usually wear sari to weddings.

[Assistant] Ok, do you have any idea what their reaction to you was because you were one of the first groups.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, I think I only went to a piece of them. You know, it wasn't days long, but brides usually wore a red or dark pink or something. And I didn't have much idea of what they were saying, but there was lots of good food usually. Yeah, that's what I remember. Yeah. And I, I would get sometimes to wear a sari to those, which was really fun to do.

[Assistant] A sari, that's a wrap around.

[User] The clothing that Indian women, some Indian women wear or salwar and kameez, but I usually wear sari to weddings.

[Assistant] Ok, do you have any idea what their reaction to you was because you were one of the first groups.

[User] Oh. Hmm.

[Assistant] Were you well accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The clothing that Indian women, some Indian women wear or salwar and kameez, but I usually wear sari to weddings.

[Assistant] Ok, do you have any idea what their reaction to you was because you were one of the first groups.

[User] Oh. Hmm.

[Assistant] Were you well accepted?

[User] I think I was well accepted, yes, and I can remember my reaction and that we had a picture taken, which I still have, of the teachers of Nadi College together. We would do that once a year. And how startled I was to see myself as the only white person in that picture and how different I looked from everybody else in the picture, like everybody else is dark and I'm white. But I had no sense of that when I was just me being with the kids. You know, you're in the minority. I was in the minority, yes.

[Assistant] Although there were other Europeans or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. Hmm.

[Assistant] Were you well accepted?

[User] I think I was well accepted, yes, and I can remember my reaction and that we had a picture taken, which I still have, of the teachers of Nadi College together. We would do that once a year. And how startled I was to see myself as the only white person in that picture and how different I looked from everybody else in the picture, like everybody else is dark and I'm white. But I had no sense of that when I was just me being with the kids. You know, you're in the minority. I was in the minority, yes.

[Assistant] Although there were other Europeans or?

[User] No, not at the college. No. Let's see. Let me think. There were Indian teachers. Was there anybody else? No, I think I was the only person of a different race there, you know.

[Assistant] Do you think they knew the difference between you being a white American and some of the white volunteers from New Zealand or Australia or England?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I was well accepted, yes, and I can remember my reaction and that we had a picture taken, which I still have, of the teachers of Nadi College together. We would do that once a year. And how startled I was to see myself as the only white person in that picture and how different I looked from everybody else in the picture, like everybody else is dark and I'm white. But I had no sense of that when I was just me being with the kids. You know, you're in the minority. I was in the minority, yes.

[Assistant] Although there were other Europeans or?

[User] No, not at the college. No. Let's see. Let me think. There were Indian teachers. Was there anybody else? No, I think I was the only person of a different race there, you know.

[Assistant] Do you think they knew the difference between you being a white American and some of the white volunteers from New Zealand or Australia or England?

[User] I'm not sure they'd had experience with those people. So I don't know other than as tourists downtown, right? No, I don't know that they would have had the personal relationship that we developed over two years. So, yeah.

[Assistant] It seemed to me it was sort of a colonial attitude towards the Europeans when I was out in the villages. But I was treated with great respect. But like, yeah, if there was a chair, I got it. Yeah. But I'd rather sit on the floor on the mats, drink kava. Did you ever drink kava?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at the college. No. Let's see. Let me think. There were Indian teachers. Was there anybody else? No, I think I was the only person of a different race there, you know.

[Assistant] Do you think they knew the difference between you being a white American and some of the white volunteers from New Zealand or Australia or England?

[User] I'm not sure they'd had experience with those people. So I don't know other than as tourists downtown, right? No, I don't know that they would have had the personal relationship that we developed over two years. So, yeah.

[Assistant] It seemed to me it was sort of a colonial attitude towards the Europeans when I was out in the villages. But I was treated with great respect. But like, yeah, if there was a chair, I got it. Yeah. But I'd rather sit on the floor on the mats, drink kava. Did you ever drink kava?

[User] Only once or twice. Yeah. It was not my favorite. I was really glad not to have to drink it much.

[Assistant] Would you care to explain what kava is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure they'd had experience with those people. So I don't know other than as tourists downtown, right? No, I don't know that they would have had the personal relationship that we developed over two years. So, yeah.

[Assistant] It seemed to me it was sort of a colonial attitude towards the Europeans when I was out in the villages. But I was treated with great respect. But like, yeah, if there was a chair, I got it. Yeah. But I'd rather sit on the floor on the mats, drink kava. Did you ever drink kava?

[User] Only once or twice. Yeah. It was not my favorite. I was really glad not to have to drink it much.

[Assistant] Would you care to explain what kava is?

[User] Well as a drink made from a pepper plant of some sort that is ground and mixed with water that Fijians drink and ceremony and other people they can invite to drink it if you're sitting in the circle. But it's not a cultural thing for the Hindustani or Chinese people to drink like it is for Fijian people.

[Assistant] So, yeah, thank you. So tell me about the specific job that you had. You said you were a teacher. What subjects did you teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only once or twice. Yeah. It was not my favorite. I was really glad not to have to drink it much.

[Assistant] Would you care to explain what kava is?

[User] Well as a drink made from a pepper plant of some sort that is ground and mixed with water that Fijians drink and ceremony and other people they can invite to drink it if you're sitting in the circle. But it's not a cultural thing for the Hindustani or Chinese people to drink like it is for Fijian people.

[Assistant] So, yeah, thank you. So tell me about the specific job that you had. You said you were a teacher. What subjects did you teach?

[User] I taught biology in English. I think I taught a health science one time. I did not teach the highest level. I taught like ninth grade in 11th grade, which went to 10th and 12th, the second year of English and biology. But there was another. Let's see, she was German and Fijian, no, German and Indian woman who taught the highest levels of biology and English there, who was a very close friend of mine. And I, you know, I enjoyed her friendship and her home with her parents. She lived with her parents. There was a lot I didn't know about Judy at the time that I've tried to find out a little bit about.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well as a drink made from a pepper plant of some sort that is ground and mixed with water that Fijians drink and ceremony and other people they can invite to drink it if you're sitting in the circle. But it's not a cultural thing for the Hindustani or Chinese people to drink like it is for Fijian people.

[Assistant] So, yeah, thank you. So tell me about the specific job that you had. You said you were a teacher. What subjects did you teach?

[User] I taught biology in English. I think I taught a health science one time. I did not teach the highest level. I taught like ninth grade in 11th grade, which went to 10th and 12th, the second year of English and biology. But there was another. Let's see, she was German and Fijian, no, German and Indian woman who taught the highest levels of biology and English there, who was a very close friend of mine. And I, you know, I enjoyed her friendship and her home with her parents. She lived with her parents. There was a lot I didn't know about Judy at the time that I've tried to find out a little bit about.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with her?

[User] Well, she's died.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught biology in English. I think I taught a health science one time. I did not teach the highest level. I taught like ninth grade in 11th grade, which went to 10th and 12th, the second year of English and biology. But there was another. Let's see, she was German and Fijian, no, German and Indian woman who taught the highest levels of biology and English there, who was a very close friend of mine. And I, you know, I enjoyed her friendship and her home with her parents. She lived with her parents. There was a lot I didn't know about Judy at the time that I've tried to find out a little bit about.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with her?

[User] Well, she's died.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry.

[User] I learned that when we were trying to go back for the Habitat for Humanity project because the Fijian woman volunteered to help us find old friends while we were there. She found out that Judy had died. Judy did come to the United States once. And I got to pick her up at the airport and take her for, let's see, a friend's national conference in Seattle. And it warmed my heart. I had been working on peace issues and non nuclear proliferation issues in Bellingham at the time. And I found out that Judy had been working on those projects in Fiji since I had seen her, which was very heartwarming. But she died of of, um, I'm not sure what, but not under good circumstances.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear that. As I remember, Fiji was a nuclear free zone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, she's died.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry.

[User] I learned that when we were trying to go back for the Habitat for Humanity project because the Fijian woman volunteered to help us find old friends while we were there. She found out that Judy had died. Judy did come to the United States once. And I got to pick her up at the airport and take her for, let's see, a friend's national conference in Seattle. And it warmed my heart. I had been working on peace issues and non nuclear proliferation issues in Bellingham at the time. And I found out that Judy had been working on those projects in Fiji since I had seen her, which was very heartwarming. But she died of of, um, I'm not sure what, but not under good circumstances.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear that. As I remember, Fiji was a nuclear free zone.

[User] Yeah. And we were working on that in Bellingham, which is what was so special about that.

[Assistant] Right. So you told us a little bit about your work in the classroom. What did you do on your days off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I learned that when we were trying to go back for the Habitat for Humanity project because the Fijian woman volunteered to help us find old friends while we were there. She found out that Judy had died. Judy did come to the United States once. And I got to pick her up at the airport and take her for, let's see, a friend's national conference in Seattle. And it warmed my heart. I had been working on peace issues and non nuclear proliferation issues in Bellingham at the time. And I found out that Judy had been working on those projects in Fiji since I had seen her, which was very heartwarming. But she died of of, um, I'm not sure what, but not under good circumstances.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear that. As I remember, Fiji was a nuclear free zone.

[User] Yeah. And we were working on that in Bellingham, which is what was so special about that.

[Assistant] Right. So you told us a little bit about your work in the classroom. What did you do on your days off?

[User] What did I do on days off? Well, often I went to market, which is kind of interesting because I go to a farmer's market here now. So you didn't like having to dicker over prices, but we often did for the fresh fruits and vegetables. And so that was usually a Saturday kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did you speak in Hindustani?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What did I do on days off? Well, often I went to market, which is kind of interesting because I go to a farmer's market here now. So you didn't like having to dicker over prices, but we often did for the fresh fruits and vegetables. And so that was usually a Saturday kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did you speak in Hindustani?

[User] Oh, I don't remember. I probably try, but some of the vendors probably were Fijian too, so I wouldn't have been able to. Not much to say to them. I think I worked a lot on preparing lessons on the weekend as well.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] Because I was teaching like at least three different classes, if not five. So there was a lot to prepare.

[Assistant] And that was your first job out of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don't remember. I probably try, but some of the vendors probably were Fijian too, so I wouldn't have been able to. Not much to say to them. I think I worked a lot on preparing lessons on the weekend as well.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] Because I was teaching like at least three different classes, if not five. So there was a lot to prepare.

[Assistant] And that was your first job out of college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have any time to take a vacation and get away from Fiji? If so, where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was teaching like at least three different classes, if not five. So there was a lot to prepare.

[Assistant] And that was your first job out of college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have any time to take a vacation and get away from Fiji? If so, where did you go?

[User] While I was there? No, no, I didn't.

[Assistant] So you spent your vacation time there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have any time to take a vacation and get away from Fiji? If so, where did you go?

[User] While I was there? No, no, I didn't.

[Assistant] So you spent your vacation time there.

[User] In Fiji and we at least the. Between our first and second year, we had some kind of a conference in Suva that everybody went to during that time off from teaching. So that was one highlight anyway of. Yeah, seeing everybody that we haven't hadn't seen for months.

[Assistant] So do you think teaching in Fiji was similar to teaching in the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Fiji and we at least the. Between our first and second year, we had some kind of a conference in Suva that everybody went to during that time off from teaching. So that was one highlight anyway of. Yeah, seeing everybody that we haven't hadn't seen for months.

[Assistant] So do you think teaching in Fiji was similar to teaching in the U.S.?

[User] Oh. Well, not compared to today anyway, but maybe then I don't know enough about my father and mother were teachers and they did a lot of work at home. So I suppose in some ways it could have been. And and the friendships with students, which you had to be careful about. But which. Or, of course, the precious part of being there.

[Assistant] Hmm. Yes.

[User] I'm sure my dad was friends with his students, but it's hard it's too long ago to remember to be able to recall that

[Assistant] We were grassroot ambassadors.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. Well, not compared to today anyway, but maybe then I don't know enough about my father and mother were teachers and they did a lot of work at home. So I suppose in some ways it could have been. And and the friendships with students, which you had to be careful about. But which. Or, of course, the precious part of being there.

[Assistant] Hmm. Yes.

[User] I'm sure my dad was friends with his students, but it's hard it's too long ago to remember to be able to recall that

[Assistant] We were grassroot ambassadors.

[User] Yes, something went through my mind that I can't remember just now. I'll have to come back to it.

[Assistant] Maybe one of the students that you got close with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure my dad was friends with his students, but it's hard it's too long ago to remember to be able to recall that

[Assistant] We were grassroot ambassadors.

[User] Yes, something went through my mind that I can't remember just now. I'll have to come back to it.

[Assistant] Maybe one of the students that you got close with.

[User] Well, I did get, Romijn and Ramallah were my favorites in the older group, and she brought me lunch every day, which was veggies with a roti. Yes, I was really spoiled with that. When I went back to Fiji for the Habitat project, I was able to find her and they had gotten married and they had actually had a child, which was very I knew was difficult from communicating early with them. And she made me roti and veggies again. So nice. That was very nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you continue to correspond with her after you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, something went through my mind that I can't remember just now. I'll have to come back to it.

[Assistant] Maybe one of the students that you got close with.

[User] Well, I did get, Romijn and Ramallah were my favorites in the older group, and she brought me lunch every day, which was veggies with a roti. Yes, I was really spoiled with that. When I went back to Fiji for the Habitat project, I was able to find her and they had gotten married and they had actually had a child, which was very I knew was difficult from communicating early with them. And she made me roti and veggies again. So nice. That was very nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you continue to correspond with her after you left?

[User] A little bit. Not very much. We lost touch after a long time. And so I, I had gotten an email a couple of times from Romijn and he certainly probably has a bigger lifestyle than we have these days. He's a business person now. And so I had tried to Google and see if I could find him when we went back and I wrote a letter to the address of his business and didn't get any answers. So I didn't know how to deal with that. Well, while we were in Fiji doing the Habitat project, he got the letter that I had written and called Habitat in Suva and said, you know, we're here, we want to see you. So it worked out in the end, although I didn't see that was that was very gratifying.

[Assistant] And you were building homes for Habitat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I did get, Romijn and Ramallah were my favorites in the older group, and she brought me lunch every day, which was veggies with a roti. Yes, I was really spoiled with that. When I went back to Fiji for the Habitat project, I was able to find her and they had gotten married and they had actually had a child, which was very I knew was difficult from communicating early with them. And she made me roti and veggies again. So nice. That was very nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you continue to correspond with her after you left?

[User] A little bit. Not very much. We lost touch after a long time. And so I, I had gotten an email a couple of times from Romijn and he certainly probably has a bigger lifestyle than we have these days. He's a business person now. And so I had tried to Google and see if I could find him when we went back and I wrote a letter to the address of his business and didn't get any answers. So I didn't know how to deal with that. Well, while we were in Fiji doing the Habitat project, he got the letter that I had written and called Habitat in Suva and said, you know, we're here, we want to see you. So it worked out in the end, although I didn't see that was that was very gratifying.

[Assistant] And you were building homes for Habitat?

[User] Well, we were supposed to be it didn't quite work that way, but we got close.

[Assistant] Oh, that's good. So looking back at your tour service, what were your main accomplishments, would you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were supposed to be it didn't quite work that way, but we got close.

[Assistant] Oh, that's good. So looking back at your tour service, what were your main accomplishments, would you say?

[User] Well, for me personally, and this is something I've thought about often on quite a bit, it was not a U.S. accomplishment, it was a personal accomplishment. I think the United States wanted to send people overseas to influence other countries to say that we're good people in spite of the Vietnamese war or whatever and. For me to rah rah rah the United States, well, for me, I didn't. That was not the result. The result was I felt like an international citizen after being in Fiji, I no longer felt like a United States citizen, I felt like I was a person of the world and appreciated the world and the different people and cultures that were there. And I don't know whether that was the U.S. goal, but that's what happened to me. I was not, I did not come home rah rahing the United States. I came home grateful for the people who had given me so much while I was there.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, in fact, I think that is one of the goals is to bring back an understanding of people of other cultures. So here you are telling me all about Fiji in the early days, because even in my time, we didn't have TV. No telephones were very limited. Roads were all gravel electricity in the towns.

[User] But not in the villages.

[Assistant] Not in the villages, and certainly no air conditioning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for me personally, and this is something I've thought about often on quite a bit, it was not a U.S. accomplishment, it was a personal accomplishment. I think the United States wanted to send people overseas to influence other countries to say that we're good people in spite of the Vietnamese war or whatever and. For me to rah rah rah the United States, well, for me, I didn't. That was not the result. The result was I felt like an international citizen after being in Fiji, I no longer felt like a United States citizen, I felt like I was a person of the world and appreciated the world and the different people and cultures that were there. And I don't know whether that was the U.S. goal, but that's what happened to me. I was not, I did not come home rah rahing the United States. I came home grateful for the people who had given me so much while I was there.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, in fact, I think that is one of the goals is to bring back an understanding of people of other cultures. So here you are telling me all about Fiji in the early days, because even in my time, we didn't have TV. No telephones were very limited. Roads were all gravel electricity in the towns.

[User] But not in the villages.

[Assistant] Not in the villages, and certainly no air conditioning.

[User] No. Well, I can remember that is a little fun memory with my roommate. The first year that it was so hot and muggy, we came home from school and it was just hanging heavy and it eventually rained and we went out in the little compound where we lived and danced in the rain because it was so glad it rained and we were so hot and and our mommy just laughed at us dancing in the rain outside.

[Assistant] Nice. Well, you mentioned the goals of the Peace Corps. So the first is to provide technical assistance when requested, which you did as a teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But not in the villages.

[Assistant] Not in the villages, and certainly no air conditioning.

[User] No. Well, I can remember that is a little fun memory with my roommate. The first year that it was so hot and muggy, we came home from school and it was just hanging heavy and it eventually rained and we went out in the little compound where we lived and danced in the rain because it was so glad it rained and we were so hot and and our mommy just laughed at us dancing in the rain outside.

[Assistant] Nice. Well, you mentioned the goals of the Peace Corps. So the first is to provide technical assistance when requested, which you did as a teacher.

[User] And I don't think they send teachers anymore. I think I have read that they feel like their training and their teachers are adequate now that they want other help, but not teaching help. Oh, yes, I understand. I don't know whether that's true.

[Assistant] Well, my wife was also a biology botany teacher there in Fiji. That's where we met. And then we got married later. Was that common? Did many of the couples develop relationships either with other Americans or with the Fijians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, I can remember that is a little fun memory with my roommate. The first year that it was so hot and muggy, we came home from school and it was just hanging heavy and it eventually rained and we went out in the little compound where we lived and danced in the rain because it was so glad it rained and we were so hot and and our mommy just laughed at us dancing in the rain outside.

[Assistant] Nice. Well, you mentioned the goals of the Peace Corps. So the first is to provide technical assistance when requested, which you did as a teacher.

[User] And I don't think they send teachers anymore. I think I have read that they feel like their training and their teachers are adequate now that they want other help, but not teaching help. Oh, yes, I understand. I don't know whether that's true.

[Assistant] Well, my wife was also a biology botany teacher there in Fiji. That's where we met. And then we got married later. Was that common? Did many of the couples develop relationships either with other Americans or with the Fijians?

[User] I don't know whether common is the right word, but it did happen. I mean, we had a big group where there were still over 100 people when we went. And so we had I know that one couple in this picture, I'm getting too close to the microphone, got married. They were both in Ba, not Ba, one of the islands to the south. They were on separate ends of the island and they eventually married and are still together. And several several couples went already married. And there are I believe there were a few that married people from Fiji, but I don't remember now who or how many.

[Assistant] So, yeah, well, the national language is English. So, you know, we should have that common denominator. But any regrets or failures, if I might ask?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don't think they send teachers anymore. I think I have read that they feel like their training and their teachers are adequate now that they want other help, but not teaching help. Oh, yes, I understand. I don't know whether that's true.

[Assistant] Well, my wife was also a biology botany teacher there in Fiji. That's where we met. And then we got married later. Was that common? Did many of the couples develop relationships either with other Americans or with the Fijians?

[User] I don't know whether common is the right word, but it did happen. I mean, we had a big group where there were still over 100 people when we went. And so we had I know that one couple in this picture, I'm getting too close to the microphone, got married. They were both in Ba, not Ba, one of the islands to the south. They were on separate ends of the island and they eventually married and are still together. And several several couples went already married. And there are I believe there were a few that married people from Fiji, but I don't remember now who or how many.

[Assistant] So, yeah, well, the national language is English. So, you know, we should have that common denominator. But any regrets or failures, if I might ask?

[User] Huh. I think mostly gratitude.

[Assistant] Great. That's wonderful, yeah, because it is mostly people, the people and obviously you promoted a better understanding of what Americans are, even though it wasn't necessarily intentionally to be a diplomat. But so throughout the years, have you had other involvements you mentioned to Habitat for Humanity, you mentioned staying in touch with a few people or any other kind of activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of the Peace Corps itself. I think so. It was a few years ago. And so there were three, one, two, three, four, six of us from Fiji II that went, which we were the best representative of all the groups who went. And I was very grateful for that, somebody I know, remember his name now organized it and it took a long time to organize people from different Fiji groups going and all the stuff that had to be prepared in order to work with Habitat for Humanity. But I wanted to go back to Fiji and I did not want to go alone. So it was a really wonderful experience and I probably couldn't do it physically now. So I'm really grateful we did it when we did it. And I got to see the friends that I remembered so screwed up.

[Assistant] So we kind of jumped over when you left Fiji and came back to the States. First of all, how did you feel about leaving?

[User] Oh, golly. I remember not wanting to come home that. I felt like my values had changed so much that. I didn't know how to fit in at home and culture shock. Yeah, a lot of culture shock. I arrived in Baltimore's airport. I mean, I spent a few days in Hawaii with a friend who was in Fiji, but not a Peace Corps person. And she and I tried to use that time to get used to the U.S. again a little. And then I flew into Baltimore right before Christmas and where I was wearing sandals and a cotton dress and really dreading, in a sense, seeing my family who loved me dearly, who wrote to me every week, who, you know, kept me there. There was no phone calling, nothing like that. So a letter a week from your family was very precious.

[Assistant] What were you afraid of?

[User] I wasn't afraid. I just, I didn't really want to deal with where the United States was, versus where I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anticipation of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, golly. I remember not wanting to come home that. I felt like my values had changed so much that. I didn't know how to fit in at home and culture shock. Yeah, a lot of culture shock. I arrived in Baltimore's airport. I mean, I spent a few days in Hawaii with a friend who was in Fiji, but not a Peace Corps person. And she and I tried to use that time to get used to the U.S. again a little. And then I flew into Baltimore right before Christmas and where I was wearing sandals and a cotton dress and really dreading, in a sense, seeing my family who loved me dearly, who wrote to me every week, who, you know, kept me there. There was no phone calling, nothing like that. So a letter a week from your family was very precious.

[Assistant] What were you afraid of?

[User] I wasn't afraid. I just, I didn't really want to deal with where the United States was, versus where I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anticipation of.

[User] Yeah. So I, I had some months at home and I had I knew from college days that I wanted to work for the National Park Service. So while I was in Hawaii and training, I was able to take the test that was required back in 1969, ’68, to get into federal service. And so I had taken that test and done well enough that I was lucky to get into the Park Service. They were looking for women. I had worked with the Peace Corps. So I got into the National Park Service training program. Oh, let's see, about four months after I got home, I guess.

[Assistant] Ok, well, I met your husband, Alan. I want to tell us a little bit about how you met him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't afraid. I just, I didn't really want to deal with where the United States was, versus where I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anticipation of.

[User] Yeah. So I, I had some months at home and I had I knew from college days that I wanted to work for the National Park Service. So while I was in Hawaii and training, I was able to take the test that was required back in 1969, ’68, to get into federal service. And so I had taken that test and done well enough that I was lucky to get into the Park Service. They were looking for women. I had worked with the Peace Corps. So I got into the National Park Service training program. Oh, let's see, about four months after I got home, I guess.

[Assistant] Ok, well, I met your husband, Alan. I want to tell us a little bit about how you met him.

[User] Oh, well, that was years later. He remembers that I was working for the Park Service. This would have been ‘73 and he was working as a seasonal. And I did some environmental and interpretive training for I was working in a regional office and he was working at North Cascades National Park. So he remembers meeting me when I was training summer employees. And I remember him from graduate school in 1980 when we were both at Western Washington University. And he was I had already been there a year and I was just starting grad school, having worked for the Park Service for nearly ten years. So I had to quit the Park Service to go to grad school. And I was very lucky afterwards to be able to get back in after some non park service work that I really didn't want to do very much. So I lucked out and got back into the Park Service.

[Assistant] Well, I asked Alan, do you have any particular habits that he doesn't understand that might have come from Fiji, like sitting on the floor drinking out of bowls?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, that was years later. He remembers that I was working for the Park Service. This would have been ‘73 and he was working as a seasonal. And I did some environmental and interpretive training for I was working in a regional office and he was working at North Cascades National Park. So he remembers meeting me when I was training summer employees. And I remember him from graduate school in 1980 when we were both at Western Washington University. And he was I had already been there a year and I was just starting grad school, having worked for the Park Service for nearly ten years. So I had to quit the Park Service to go to grad school. And I was very lucky afterwards to be able to get back in after some non park service work that I really didn't want to do very much. So I lucked out and got back into the Park Service.

[Assistant] Well, I asked Alan, do you have any particular habits that he doesn't understand that might have come from Fiji, like sitting on the floor drinking out of bowls?

[User] I don't sit on the floor and drink out of bowls, although I, I well, I don't even know whether I could sit on the floor very much. I drink a lot of tea and I'm pretty convinced that that started in Fiji because we had tea mid-morning and mid-afternoon every day that are some of our older students would make tea for us and some of them could do it wonderfully and others got chided because they didn't do so well.

[Assistant] Yeah, it was part of the British Commonwealth at that time. It was it's now an independent republic.

[User] It became independent while I was there.

[Assistant] Did I recall what that was like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It became independent while I was there.

[Assistant] Did I recall what that was like?

[User] Oh, I do. It was a very exciting time. And I'm sorry for the troubles that have come since. But at the time it was, Nadi had some very big celebrations and I went to some of the cultural dances and other things that they were doing to celebrate both the Fijian culture and the Indian culture. It was a very exciting time in Fiji.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So I'm and I yeah, I'm sorry that things are not as good now as they were then, but at that time it was.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps also has people that are retired. Would you ever consider going back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I do. It was a very exciting time. And I'm sorry for the troubles that have come since. But at the time it was, Nadi had some very big celebrations and I went to some of the cultural dances and other things that they were doing to celebrate both the Fijian culture and the Indian culture. It was a very exciting time in Fiji.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So I'm and I yeah, I'm sorry that things are not as good now as they were then, but at that time it was.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps also has people that are retired. Would you ever consider going back?

[User] Well, I might have 10 years ago, but not now. My body doesn't doesn't work as well as it used to work so well.

[Assistant] What advice would you have for anybody else that's interested in joining the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I'm and I yeah, I'm sorry that things are not as good now as they were then, but at that time it was.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps also has people that are retired. Would you ever consider going back?

[User] Well, I might have 10 years ago, but not now. My body doesn't doesn't work as well as it used to work so well.

[Assistant] What advice would you have for anybody else that's interested in joining the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, you know, I have very dear friends that live out in Joyce and their granddaughters had heard about the Peace Corps and they had me talk with her. So I I told her that I didn't think I could tell her very much now because things in our whole world have changed so much. The fact that you can call all the way around the world on a little handheld phone is so different from the experience that I had. And I didn't live in a village where and I don't know now whether Peace Corps volunteers in Fiji anyway live in villages or whether. They are all in the cities. I was a city person, so I didn't have, in a sense, the full experience. I did go to one Fijian wedding in the mountains and that was quite exciting. But for the most part, I was in a city. But I now treasure the experience of being really immersed in the culture there, and I fear that Peace Corps people now would have to work at that, that they might. Because we have so many gadgets now that keep us, what's the word, tied to our culture? It is harder to go native, or experience a culture that is different from ours, or we are so dependent on our gadgets now that it would be harder. It was easier then I think.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm sure TV has transformed them into something else. So I think we're very lucky to go when we did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I might have 10 years ago, but not now. My body doesn't doesn't work as well as it used to work so well.

[Assistant] What advice would you have for anybody else that's interested in joining the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, you know, I have very dear friends that live out in Joyce and their granddaughters had heard about the Peace Corps and they had me talk with her. So I I told her that I didn't think I could tell her very much now because things in our whole world have changed so much. The fact that you can call all the way around the world on a little handheld phone is so different from the experience that I had. And I didn't live in a village where and I don't know now whether Peace Corps volunteers in Fiji anyway live in villages or whether. They are all in the cities. I was a city person, so I didn't have, in a sense, the full experience. I did go to one Fijian wedding in the mountains and that was quite exciting. But for the most part, I was in a city. But I now treasure the experience of being really immersed in the culture there, and I fear that Peace Corps people now would have to work at that, that they might. Because we have so many gadgets now that keep us, what's the word, tied to our culture? It is harder to go native, or experience a culture that is different from ours, or we are so dependent on our gadgets now that it would be harder. It was easier then I think.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm sure TV has transformed them into something else. So I think we're very lucky to go when we did.

[User] I am too. I'm very sure we're lucky.

[Assistant] Well Pat, it's been delightful talking to you. Any final thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am too. I'm very sure we're lucky.

[Assistant] Well Pat, it's been delightful talking to you. Any final thoughts?

[User] Um, no. I think the influences for me were realizing how much I got out of the Peace Corps experience, no matter whether the government wanted other people to benefit from the Americans being there. For me, it was not that. It was how much benefit I got. And I think something that influenced my life tremendously in retrospect is that while I was there, a person from Fiji I, whom I didn't know or before I was there, he went to Fiji and was drafted and forced to go to Vietnam and was killed. And of course, that was a Fiji I person. But Fiji II heard about that. And I met his parents who came to Fiji to find out why he had loved Fiji so much. That has had an enormous impression on me all of my life to work for nonproliferation of weapons, of non-nuclear stuff, of being anti-war, because I felt like his life could have done so much more if he had stayed in Fiji and not gone and been killed in Vietnam.

[Assistant] I'm sorry to hear that. So why do you think he loved Fiji so much?

[User] Well, the people, I mean, it makes me cry to think about it. The people were very loving then. They welcomed us. They forgave our foolishness of mistakes, you know, was a one-on-one or a community event. That was wonderful.

[Assistant] Yeah. I have to agree with you. Well, I think we've come to the end. Thank you, Pat. It's been very nice talking with you. We'll look forward to seeing this posted on the Kennedy Library.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, no. I think the influences for me were realizing how much I got out of the Peace Corps experience, no matter whether the government wanted other people to benefit from the Americans being there. For me, it was not that. It was how much benefit I got. And I think something that influenced my life tremendously in retrospect is that while I was there, a person from Fiji I, whom I didn't know or before I was there, he went to Fiji and was drafted and forced to go to Vietnam and was killed. And of course, that was a Fiji I person. But Fiji II heard about that. And I met his parents who came to Fiji to find out why he had loved Fiji so much. That has had an enormous impression on me all of my life to work for nonproliferation of weapons, of non-nuclear stuff, of being anti-war, because I felt like his life could have done so much more if he had stayed in Fiji and not gone and been killed in Vietnam.

[Assistant] I'm sorry to hear that. So why do you think he loved Fiji so much?

[User] Well, the people, I mean, it makes me cry to think about it. The people were very loving then. They welcomed us. They forgave our foolishness of mistakes, you know, was a one-on-one or a community event. That was wonderful.

[Assistant] Yeah. I have to agree with you. Well, I think we've come to the end. Thank you, Pat. It's been very nice talking with you. We'll look forward to seeing this posted on the Kennedy Library.

[User] Thank you very much, Jack.

[Assistant] Ni sa bula. Namaste.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. You're welcome.

[Assistant] And we know you just returned, not just a few weeks ago, from a flight. Would you like to begin by telling us how you feel, and what your experiences have been since you've been home?

[User] Well, I think everyone thinks that the job of an astronaut is rather glamorous, and I'm always amazed that when we come back from a flight, where you've spent many, many months preparing and you've been very, very busy in space, usually with the help of lots of people on the ground, and the mission is a great success, then you come back and you very quickly get wrapped up in the mundane things of life, and so I think that's where all of us in the [STS] 91 crew are now, is we're back to the mundane aspect of life, dealing with the snail mail and the E-mail.\n\n You have to fight hard to remember and preserve the memories of the flight. It's amazing just how quickly you're forced to almost leave that behind and move on to other things, and before you know it, it feels like it was long ago that you actually did the flight. It already feels like it was months ago that we actually docked with Mir for the last time and said goodbye to the cosmonauts on board and closed the hatch for the final time of the Phase One Program.

[Assistant] Did the time seem to go quickly while you were there?

[User] It always goes very quickly on orbit, unfortunately. That's the philosophy of a short-duration mission, is to maximize every moment while you're up there. With a long-duration mission, you know that you have time and you don't have to work as furiously to get everything done. During our ten days, we were very, very busy, I think at times to the detriment of being able just to enjoy each other's company, to go over and spend some time in the Mir base block and get a chance to talk with your Russian counterparts. Certainly it's difficult to grab a couple of minutes just to look out the window. You have to fight to protect that time, also.

[Assistant] You have specific duties when you're on these flights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think everyone thinks that the job of an astronaut is rather glamorous, and I'm always amazed that when we come back from a flight, where you've spent many, many months preparing and you've been very, very busy in space, usually with the help of lots of people on the ground, and the mission is a great success, then you come back and you very quickly get wrapped up in the mundane things of life, and so I think that's where all of us in the [STS] 91 crew are now, is we're back to the mundane aspect of life, dealing with the snail mail and the E-mail.\n\n You have to fight hard to remember and preserve the memories of the flight. It's amazing just how quickly you're forced to almost leave that behind and move on to other things, and before you know it, it feels like it was long ago that you actually did the flight. It already feels like it was months ago that we actually docked with Mir for the last time and said goodbye to the cosmonauts on board and closed the hatch for the final time of the Phase One Program.

[Assistant] Did the time seem to go quickly while you were there?

[User] It always goes very quickly on orbit, unfortunately. That's the philosophy of a short-duration mission, is to maximize every moment while you're up there. With a long-duration mission, you know that you have time and you don't have to work as furiously to get everything done. During our ten days, we were very, very busy, I think at times to the detriment of being able just to enjoy each other's company, to go over and spend some time in the Mir base block and get a chance to talk with your Russian counterparts. Certainly it's difficult to grab a couple of minutes just to look out the window. You have to fight to protect that time, also.

[Assistant] You have specific duties when you're on these flights.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And have they differed from this last time or the time before, when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It always goes very quickly on orbit, unfortunately. That's the philosophy of a short-duration mission, is to maximize every moment while you're up there. With a long-duration mission, you know that you have time and you don't have to work as furiously to get everything done. During our ten days, we were very, very busy, I think at times to the detriment of being able just to enjoy each other's company, to go over and spend some time in the Mir base block and get a chance to talk with your Russian counterparts. Certainly it's difficult to grab a couple of minutes just to look out the window. You have to fight to protect that time, also.

[Assistant] You have specific duties when you're on these flights.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And have they differed from this last time or the time before, when you were there?

[User] Well, the time before was a unique situation, because I was originally on the STS-86 crew as simply a mission specialist who was going up to Mir, and not to return on that flight. I got replaced about six weeks prior to launch, so my roles changed as well, when I was no longer the long-duration crew member.\n\n So, on 86, because I got added to that crew so late, there weren't a lot of responsibilities that I could be given and have time to train for, so my focus on that flight was to get the U.S. laboratory set up for Dave Wolf, who was going to be the NASA-6 crew member. On 91, I was a member of the crew from the onset, so certainly my roles on that flight, there were more of them and the responsibilities were greater. On 91, I served as the flight engineer during ascent entry, and then while we were docked, I was in charge of all the transfers, so you can imagine during the dock time frame, I was very busy making sure that we got our 6,000 pounds of logistics transferred between the two vehicles.

[Assistant] This is, of course, how you ended your time with Phase One, but you began your time with Phase One back when?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the NASA office kind of became the--we had a handful of Americans over there, and the Russians that we had hired, the three secretaries and interpreters in the office, all spoke English extremely well, so you tended to speak English over at the office, usually because by the end of the day, you were tired of having to do everything in another language.\n\n So typically, from about nine to six, Monday through Friday, you operated in a Russian world and you listened to Russian all day long and you spoke in Russian, and it was really nice at the end of the day to stop by the office and switch back to your native language, because your brain was just tired, it was wrung out at that point.

[Assistant] Have you ever encountered anything like this before?

[User] I had learned Spanish in high school. Growing up in Southern California, that was the logical thing to do, but Spanish is an easier language to learn. Being a romance language, I think it's more akin to the language we speak. Russian is a Slavic language, derived from that, and it's a different alphabet, a different way of handling grammar and conjugation and it's a harder language to learn.

[Assistant] And of course, too, you became part of that culture, as well.

[User] Well, yes and no. I think even though we lived over there, you don't necessarily--it's like people who come to the United States, you live in the United States, but you don't necessarily lose the culture that you've come from. If we had stayed there longer, I think we would have been more immersed in the Russian culture, but, truthfully, probably the longest period I spent there continuously was four months, and then you would have trips back to the U.S. for training, that would be about a month long. So I think it's a little bit more difficult to get immersed in a culture when you're not in a country for a long period of time.

[Assistant] Did you ever have a chance to see the country for the country, and not as a training ground?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had learned Spanish in high school. Growing up in Southern California, that was the logical thing to do, but Spanish is an easier language to learn. Being a romance language, I think it's more akin to the language we speak. Russian is a Slavic language, derived from that, and it's a different alphabet, a different way of handling grammar and conjugation and it's a harder language to learn.

[Assistant] And of course, too, you became part of that culture, as well.

[User] Well, yes and no. I think even though we lived over there, you don't necessarily--it's like people who come to the United States, you live in the United States, but you don't necessarily lose the culture that you've come from. If we had stayed there longer, I think we would have been more immersed in the Russian culture, but, truthfully, probably the longest period I spent there continuously was four months, and then you would have trips back to the U.S. for training, that would be about a month long. So I think it's a little bit more difficult to get immersed in a culture when you're not in a country for a long period of time.

[Assistant] Did you ever have a chance to see the country for the country, and not as a training ground?

[User] I made, let's see, probably two trips, really, outside of the Moscow region. One was to Tiksi, up about seventy-two degrees latitude in the Arctic Circle, about 6,000 kilometers from Moscow, and the other one was down to the Black Sea, to Djubka, Russia, but that was really the extent of it. I would have loved to have traveled more, but when I was DOR, that was just out of the question. There was absolutely no time to do that, and then when I was training, I felt like I really needed to study on the weekends, so I didn't even have a chance to make it up to St. Petersburg, unfortunately.

[Assistant] Planning a trip back soon? Is there anything else over there for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [Laughter] If the training flow doesn't kill you.

[Assistant] We thank you. We appreciate taking your time.

[User] Sure. I think Charlie Precourt says he's on his way over here.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] He was already giving an interview when I left to come over here, so he's probably, he's in the groove.

[Assistant] He's in the mood.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I think Charlie Precourt says he's on his way over here.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] He was already giving an interview when I left to come over here, so he's probably, he's in the groove.

[Assistant] He's in the mood.

[User] He's in the mood. Actually, I just gave one earlier today, too, but it was little bit shorter, and we talked about some other stuff.

[Assistant] Must be the day to interview, then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was already giving an interview when I left to come over here, so he's probably, he's in the groove.

[Assistant] He's in the mood.

[User] He's in the mood. Actually, I just gave one earlier today, too, but it was little bit shorter, and we talked about some other stuff.

[Assistant] Must be the day to interview, then.

[User] Yes, well, I think so. And Alicia said, "How about Tuesday, right after your other one? We'll just do it on Tuesday." "Okay. Whatever works."

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck. We hope that the missions will be many for you, and you can go visit the ISS, and then you can compare it to the--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's in the mood. Actually, I just gave one earlier today, too, but it was little bit shorter, and we talked about some other stuff.

[Assistant] Must be the day to interview, then.

[User] Yes, well, I think so. And Alicia said, "How about Tuesday, right after your other one? We'll just do it on Tuesday." "Okay. Whatever works."

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck. We hope that the missions will be many for you, and you can go visit the ISS, and then you can compare it to the--

[User] Yes. Well, boy, we've got to get it built first. Charlie [Precourt] will probably talk about that some more, but that's one of the things that we've been saying in our debrief, is we've done it really well, we've learned a lot over Phase One. From the early days, he can compare it from '71 to '91, the first few flights, we were still learning how to do this logistics transfer, and we got really good at the end of the process, but we had the benefit of dealing with a mature station, and now we have to go and do it with a station that we're trying to assemble, so we've got to get a little bit better in how we do this to make sure we can pull it off. So that's what we've been talking about to the folks, is how we can better accomplish this mission and gain some efficiency. It's the reason why we're going over to Building Nine on Thursday, to show people what our mid-deck looked like, to try and figure out how to do this a little bit better.

[Assistant] Good luck with it all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] That was a good overview, though, good introduction. Going back to Mercury, you had mentioned that you were involved in training during those last missions. Did you work on console for any of those?

[User] For the last mission—the group was very small in those days. In fact, I often tell people it was so small that everybody who worked in the control center for the mission would be invited to Chris Kraft's house for the party afterward. Now imagine if he tried that now. [Laughter] He'd need to rent a football stadium or something. But the first mission we didn't actually have any operational position during the mission, but I always complained about that because the sim [simulation] guys learned so much about the systems that they were in awfully good position to contribute during the mission. So for the last mission, I shared the console with Arnie Aldrich on the systems console for the Mercury systems, and I worked on that and I loved it. It was great. That was a wonderful time.\n\n I was back at the Cape for the integration of the experiments into the Spacelab and then the Spacelab into the Orbiter for the Shuttle 9 mission, which is that launch up there. Every day I would drive out to the NASA offices there and I would see this old sign that said the old Mercury control center was down there. One day I just went down there to look at it. I said, "I'll be late," but I went down there and looked, and I was shocked to see it's just a little tiny building all boarded up. Nobody's done anything. There ought to be a shrine of some sort. It was really a very important place. I hope somebody does something one day.

[Assistant] I know I've heard some talk about it, so hopefully someone will be able to make some progress.

[User] I wish they would.

[Assistant] A historical site. Absolutely. Of course, the Mercury control center was quite a bit different than what ended up in Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the last mission—the group was very small in those days. In fact, I often tell people it was so small that everybody who worked in the control center for the mission would be invited to Chris Kraft's house for the party afterward. Now imagine if he tried that now. [Laughter] He'd need to rent a football stadium or something. But the first mission we didn't actually have any operational position during the mission, but I always complained about that because the sim [simulation] guys learned so much about the systems that they were in awfully good position to contribute during the mission. So for the last mission, I shared the console with Arnie Aldrich on the systems console for the Mercury systems, and I worked on that and I loved it. It was great. That was a wonderful time.\n\n I was back at the Cape for the integration of the experiments into the Spacelab and then the Spacelab into the Orbiter for the Shuttle 9 mission, which is that launch up there. Every day I would drive out to the NASA offices there and I would see this old sign that said the old Mercury control center was down there. One day I just went down there to look at it. I said, "I'll be late," but I went down there and looked, and I was shocked to see it's just a little tiny building all boarded up. Nobody's done anything. There ought to be a shrine of some sort. It was really a very important place. I hope somebody does something one day.

[Assistant] I know I've heard some talk about it, so hopefully someone will be able to make some progress.

[User] I wish they would.

[Assistant] A historical site. Absolutely. Of course, the Mercury control center was quite a bit different than what ended up in Houston.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the construction and the organization of the new one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish they would.

[Assistant] A historical site. Absolutely. Of course, the Mercury control center was quite a bit different than what ended up in Houston.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the construction and the organization of the new one?

[User] Yes. Actually, one of the first assignments I had when I got to Johnson Space Center, there was a Source Evaluation Board for the control center design, and I was on the operations panel. They put us in an old hotel downtown. We were like a sequestered jury or something. You weren't allowed out at night to talk to people. But we stayed in this hotel for a week or so, and it was there I met, really got to know Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom, and I discovered that he graduated from Purdue one year ahead of me. I didn't know him there, though. We didn't know that. Yes, I was involved in that, too. Then all through the development and testing of it, always the requirements, operational requirements side of it.

[Assistant] How did you determine what those requirements would be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the construction and the organization of the new one?

[User] Yes. Actually, one of the first assignments I had when I got to Johnson Space Center, there was a Source Evaluation Board for the control center design, and I was on the operations panel. They put us in an old hotel downtown. We were like a sequestered jury or something. You weren't allowed out at night to talk to people. But we stayed in this hotel for a week or so, and it was there I met, really got to know Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom, and I discovered that he graduated from Purdue one year ahead of me. I didn't know him there, though. We didn't know that. Yes, I was involved in that, too. Then all through the development and testing of it, always the requirements, operational requirements side of it.

[Assistant] How did you determine what those requirements would be?

[User] Well, just from operating in control centers, I'd done it so much. I'd worked in the control center at Vandenberg Air Force Base and that evolved, too. Incidentally, there we had a contract with Philco [Corporation], it was in those days Philco, which became Ford Aerospace later on, and they did a lot of the flight control work, too. When I got in my Agena section there and I needed to recruit people, I went back to that old network, that old range, and stole away a lot of those people that came to work. Some of them came as Ford Aerospace, some Ford wouldn't release, so we just hired them as NASA people, but they came there, too, guys like Jim [James E.] Saultz and Harry Smith and Hershel [R.] Perkins and Bob [Robert D.] Legler and all these guys. They were from that old group.

[Assistant] Nice that you had that connection to be able to pull from.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He worked for me. Wow, what a gold mine he was. Guys like him, he was ready in four or five, six months, ready to fly solo on the console. So it varied. Some guys took longer, some guys were faster, but you really were happy when you got a John Aaron in or somebody like that.

[Assistant] Understandably.

[User] He was a super guy.

[Assistant] Very interesting to talk with. In fact, he's just retiring.

[User] Did he? He is retiring now?

[Assistant] I think actually this month, in March.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a super guy.

[Assistant] Very interesting to talk with. In fact, he's just retiring.

[User] Did he? He is retiring now?

[Assistant] I think actually this month, in March.

[User] I'll be darn. Last time I saw him was over at ESRTC [Eurpoean Space Research and Technological Center] in the Netherlands. It was at some meeting, and I saw him in the meeting room. I went in there, broke up the meeting a little bit—

[Assistant] I'm sure everybody understood.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did he? He is retiring now?

[Assistant] I think actually this month, in March.

[User] I'll be darn. Last time I saw him was over at ESRTC [Eurpoean Space Research and Technological Center] in the Netherlands. It was at some meeting, and I saw him in the meeting room. I went in there, broke up the meeting a little bit—

[Assistant] I'm sure everybody understood.

[User] Yes, they didn't mind.

[Assistant] During the missions, what were your specific—you mentioned training the controllers and making sure they were ready, but what did you do during the missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. It really performed well.

[Assistant] In fact, on Gemini X, I believe it was, they actually ended up rendezvousing with two of the Agenas, theirs and the one from VIII.

[User] Yes. That was always an objective of the project, was to dock with one and then use it as a propulsion unit to go and rendezvous with another one, perhaps not so much—most of the important objectives were those things that needed to be done for Apollo right away, but also they had a lot of them that were for future programs like Space Station assembly missions and stuff like that, where they were looking at docking with a fuel tank and orbit with thrusters on it that could be used as a tug, space tug. And also the first orbit direct rendezvous was a requirement from Apollo because of the liftoff of the lunar module, and come up and rendezvous and dock with the command module on the first pass. It was no sweat; it was easy to do.

[Assistant] One of the other experiments with the Agena was the tether.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] What was the objective for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What happened, actually, somewhere along the line, of course, in Skylab the experiments were going to be a very big part of what you did. I mean, that's the name of the game in Skylab. We had these little experiment sections in each of the system branches, so what they did is they formed a new branch and called it experiment systems branch. I drew the short straw on that, I guess. I kind of was always Kranz's troubleshooter or put-out-the-fire guy or something like that, so I got the job of pulling that together and we had a lot of the Skylab systems and stuff in there, too. We started working that as Apollo was coming to an end.\n\n Then you mentioned in there something about after I left that branch. I didn't quite understand what you said. I think you're a little mixed up from the orbit chart. You said when I left the experiments division. Well, it was experiments branch.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I went to the payloads systems section. Well, what happened is when we formed this new payloads experiments branch, or whatever it was called, we didn't have a chief for that section yet, so I was both the section head and the branch head for a while there. I was acting. Then later on we put Ted [A.] White in as the system integration branch.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Then shortly after that, this is when Kranz reorganized and I became the assistant chief for systems. I had all the systems branches and Roach had all the operations planning branches and stuff. And it stayed that way through the rest of Apollo and until I left.

[Assistant] Looking at the experiments for Apollo, then, you had mentioned earlier that you didn't concern with the science side of it, but more with the operational side and how it would work and what was going on with that. What were some of the key factors in—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did, and it taught them teamwork and they enjoyed it, too. They came to realize what we were doing for them, carrying their battles forward into the operations world and getting astronauts scheduled and all this kind of stuff, and at the same time how we were relying on them to give us the right inputs. It made for a good team, good team.

[Assistant] Always important.

[User] That was quite an adventure, by the way, to come back for that mission, because I worked on that mission for eight years and I'd been away from JSC since 1975. We came back and ran that mission in 1983, I believe, late '83. I was back in the control center now as a payload guy, as a European, and Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin, who used to work for me one time, he was now center director, and he'd come around every day and see me. And [Charles R.] "Skinny" Lewis was the flight director. I'd go and see him every day and talk to him. Of course, everybody knew I was there and they'd all come back in the science room to see me.\n\n On the last day of the mission, I had to talk on the air-to-ground loop because the people who were doing that, to go to the landing site, and, of course, they put it on the PA system so everybody in the control center heard me talking on the air-to-ground loop, and they all went nuts. "Brooks, we've been here twenty years and we never got to talk on that air-to-ground loop. You come back as a visitor and you get to talk on there." [Laughter]

[Assistant] You had put in your years back previously.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to see some of the changes around the center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to see some of the changes around the center.

[User] It was. Every time I would go off shift, I'd go by the FOMA and see what they were doing, what problems they were chasing, and we even helped them once. They had some funny vibrations or sounds in the tunnel between the Orbiter and the Spacelab, and I heard them discussing it. In our material science doubles rack, we had a very sensitive vibration monitor, so we offered to give them some data from that thing if maybe they could help, when it happened, tell us what times they occurred and we'd give them the data. So we even cooperated with them. But it was fun.\n\n One thing I noticed is that those guys were very blasé about this. For me, that mission was a gigantic emotional experience because I had been preparing for it so long. But those guys, they were flying missions every month. It was just one more mission, routine, next one comes next month, you know. It was hard to get used to that.

[Assistant] Very different from the early days you'd been involved with.\n\n We'll go ahead and take a brief break here, change out our tape.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] ...Apollo and a couple of the missions just in general. Apollo 8 was slightly different than had been originally planned, and many people have said that it was quite a challenge because they were going to go around the Moon, just the command module, and in just a few months after Apollo 7 had proved out that the spacecraft was sound. Did you have any thoughts on the Apollo 8 at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On 13 it skyrocketed Mr. Kranz to fame, didn't it?

[Assistant] It certainly did.

[User] To get Ed Harris to play him. You know, the most amazing thing about that to me, though, was when I talked with Kranz about that, I said, "Harris must have spent a lot of time with you to capture all of your mannerisms and stuff." And he said, "I never met the guy. I never saw him."

[Assistant] Really.

[User] "He never came to see me." That's incredible to me.

[Assistant] That is incredible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're beautiful, these things. They're beautiful. They're up to the latest requirements based from the Space Station flight ops datafile requirements specs. We only deviated a little bit where we had to. But I'll tell you, I found a guy with a mind like a sponge to pick this up. We made all these mechanical drawings and stuff, too. It was incredible what we did. And, you know, I think probably NASA's got a team of 100 people working on their ops manual, and we did this with like three or four people. Three or four people and in a year. My God, it's amazing. It's really good what we did.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] I look back on the two years I spent there as a real gift. What a break, to have a chance to do that. My gosh, that was something.

[Assistant] You essentially came full circle.

[User] Yes. In fact, it was sad to leave. I had to leave. I just didn't want to—I still am not ready. I told Kranz, "I don't know how you can give up." I told both Kranz and Hannigan—this guy who just called me has a budget for some consulting work, and I told Kranz about it. I said, "You can pick up some extra bucks, get a tour to Europe, go over and study some documents back here, go over there and present the results, sit in on a couple of their meetings." "No," he said, "I'm out of the business. Don't want to do it anymore." But I don't understand how they can walk away from it. Of course, he's got this now [referring to Kranz' book Failure is Not an Option].

[Assistant] Yes, he's been reliving it in a way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I look back on the two years I spent there as a real gift. What a break, to have a chance to do that. My gosh, that was something.

[Assistant] You essentially came full circle.

[User] Yes. In fact, it was sad to leave. I had to leave. I just didn't want to—I still am not ready. I told Kranz, "I don't know how you can give up." I told both Kranz and Hannigan—this guy who just called me has a budget for some consulting work, and I told Kranz about it. I said, "You can pick up some extra bucks, get a tour to Europe, go over and study some documents back here, go over there and present the results, sit in on a couple of their meetings." "No," he said, "I'm out of the business. Don't want to do it anymore." But I don't understand how they can walk away from it. Of course, he's got this now [referring to Kranz' book Failure is Not an Option].

[Assistant] Yes, he's been reliving it in a way.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. I'm really looking forward to that. I can't thank you enough for that, and Kranz, too. I'll send him an email.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could courier it here for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In fact, it was sad to leave. I had to leave. I just didn't want to—I still am not ready. I told Kranz, "I don't know how you can give up." I told both Kranz and Hannigan—this guy who just called me has a budget for some consulting work, and I told Kranz about it. I said, "You can pick up some extra bucks, get a tour to Europe, go over and study some documents back here, go over there and present the results, sit in on a couple of their meetings." "No," he said, "I'm out of the business. Don't want to do it anymore." But I don't understand how they can walk away from it. Of course, he's got this now [referring to Kranz' book Failure is Not an Option].

[Assistant] Yes, he's been reliving it in a way.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. I'm really looking forward to that. I can't thank you enough for that, and Kranz, too. I'll send him an email.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could courier it here for you.

[User] I was going to ask you if you could find out for me, if I need to get it through Houston, Barnes and Noble, I'd do it.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could help out with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. I'm really looking forward to that. I can't thank you enough for that, and Kranz, too. I'll send him an email.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could courier it here for you.

[User] I was going to ask you if you could find out for me, if I need to get it through Houston, Barnes and Noble, I'd do it.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could help out with that.

[User] It's wonderful.

[Assistant] For both of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to ask you if you could find out for me, if I need to get it through Houston, Barnes and Noble, I'd do it.

[Assistant] We're glad that we could help out with that.

[User] It's wonderful.

[Assistant] For both of you.

[User] Yes. It's great, yes. He's the guy I first talked to that hired me, and he's been my friend ever since.

[Assistant] He was very glad to hear that we were coming to talk to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's great, yes. He's the guy I first talked to that hired me, and he's been my friend ever since.

[Assistant] He was very glad to hear that we were coming to talk to you.

[User] I bet he was. He's a good guy. You only meet one guy like him in your lifetime. There's not very many. I used to say if you had to name the ten people who contributed, who made the manned space program successful, Kranz's name would be on that list. Guys like [Robert R.] Gilruth and George [M.] Low and people like that would also be on it, but Kranz would be on that list. He might even make the top five in my book, because it wouldn't have happened without him. Sometimes he would drive you absolutely nuts because he would never let anybody relax, let their guard down. If you got too relaxed, he was worried. "Something's wrong here. We've got to keep these guys busy." So on some of those missions, like Spacelab where those boring LOS [loss of signal] periods would be forty-five minutes long or something, you'd think, "Well, at least now I'll go out and read a magazine or something." No, no, not with Kranz. "You can run a simulation. We're going to simulate now." He kept the torch lit under everybody all the time.\n\n You know Milt [Milton L.] Windler?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He's a good guy, too. He was also with Hernandez Engineering when I was, and he was down at the Alena [phonetic] Company in Toreno. He did some outstanding work for them out there. I went down there and had some meetings with him and visited with him. He's a super guy.

[Assistant] Certainly there were a lot of unique people and people with special talents that made all this happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I saw him—I was watching the movie, what's the one with Jodie Foster in it?

[Assistant] Contact?

[User] Contact. And this control center scene, and there's Gerry Griffin sitting there. He was in it. Did you see the movie?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He's in it. He even had a speaking part in it. Amazing.

[Assistant] I hadn't realized that. I missed that when I saw it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's in it. He even had a speaking part in it. Amazing.

[Assistant] I hadn't realized that. I missed that when I saw it.

[User] I heard he was hired as an advisor on that movie, but he was there, he was in it, and I saw him when he walked in with the flight director, all excited and everything. He sat down at the console and he had a speaking part in it.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] It was. It was amazing.

[Assistant] From flight controller to actor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was amazing.

[Assistant] From flight controller to actor.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] I lose track of these guys and don't know where they are anymore. Also another guy, Ed [Edward G.] Gibson. Where is he know? Do you know anything about him?

[Assistant] I believe he's in Florida.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] I lose track of these guys and don't know where they are anymore. Also another guy, Ed [Edward G.] Gibson. Where is he know? Do you know anything about him?

[Assistant] I believe he's in Florida.

[User] Florida? Last I heard, he was in California at some museum or institute or something like that.

[Assistant] We haven't gotten in contact with him yet, but we are hoping to this year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lose track of these guys and don't know where they are anymore. Also another guy, Ed [Edward G.] Gibson. Where is he know? Do you know anything about him?

[Assistant] I believe he's in Florida.

[User] Florida? Last I heard, he was in California at some museum or institute or something like that.

[Assistant] We haven't gotten in contact with him yet, but we are hoping to this year.

[User] NASA assigned him as—no, I don't think it was NASA. I think he did it on his own. He took a leave of absence from NASA, but he worked at the Arinau [phonetic] plant in Bremen, Germany, for, I don't know, better than a year or so. I in those days was working at ESRTC and used to travel to Bremen all the time, so Ed and I got to be very good friends. In fact, it was the 1976 [American] Bicentennial when the ambassador—I was attached always to the embassy, to the Council for Scientific and Technological Affairs, was under the umbrella of the embassy, and he was trying to promote a big deal for the Bicentennial, and he wanted to set up a NASA exhibit. So I got Ed to join in. Nobody had gotten him yet, so I got him to come over. I would introduce him every day and he would show the films from his Skylab mission. Then we had an exhibit set up. I managed to capture all kind of stuff that happened to be floating around in Europe from NASA. Even a space suit we had. We had a really nice exhibit set up there.\n\n Ed came over, and he and I would go out afterward and answer all the questions and stuff. So Ed and I got to be pretty good friends, but I lost track of him after he came back here.

[Assistant] That's one of the things we hope that through this project that we're able to do. In fact, we'll send you this, when we send you the final transcript, we send also a little note asking if it's all right to share your address with other participants of the project.