[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when he got off the plane, I was greeted by a blast of hot air, but Bob Woff was there to greet us. And he he made us feel right at home and he took us to get to the dormitories at the Arizona State. And that's where we were a number of weeks.

[Assistant] So what did you do primarily in the training? What did what was your what were the most outstanding memories that you have of that training?

[User] I think some of the training, for instance, on the orientation class is about Bolivia, and we had about two or three different so-called authorities of Bolivia with a new series of lectures. And it seemed to be from the particular perspective, the first first lecture was spent close to that time in remote Indian villages and the image of Bolivia as being a remote village. People would find Indians and everything was very primitive, limited, and many of the people, of course, did not speak Spanish. You better learn Quechua.

[Assistant] What did you think of the language classes?

[User] Well, a language that has been quite effective past I have a bit of a basis in Spanish, so.

[Assistant] What about getting up at 3:00 a.m. to do all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think some of the training, for instance, on the orientation class is about Bolivia, and we had about two or three different so-called authorities of Bolivia with a new series of lectures. And it seemed to be from the particular perspective, the first first lecture was spent close to that time in remote Indian villages and the image of Bolivia as being a remote village. People would find Indians and everything was very primitive, limited, and many of the people, of course, did not speak Spanish. You better learn Quechua.

[Assistant] What did you think of the language classes?

[User] Well, a language that has been quite effective past I have a bit of a basis in Spanish, so.

[Assistant] What about getting up at 3:00 a.m. to do all that?

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] You were used to doing that with the dairy probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, a language that has been quite effective past I have a bit of a basis in Spanish, so.

[Assistant] What about getting up at 3:00 a.m. to do all that?

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] You were used to doing that with the dairy probably.

[User] In fact, it was better to be a real worry because that was cooler. But we didn't like we didn't mind running it. Yeah. And it was fun to climb up the ropes on, you know.

[Assistant] So what did you what about Puerto Rico and about Puerto Rico? Was that experience different for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] You were used to doing that with the dairy probably.

[User] In fact, it was better to be a real worry because that was cooler. But we didn't like we didn't mind running it. Yeah. And it was fun to climb up the ropes on, you know.

[Assistant] So what did you what about Puerto Rico and about Puerto Rico? Was that experience different for you?

[User] Not exactly a Puerto Rico, but it certainly was what was required because I like the greenery, just a round of Arizona. And I enjoyed the physical training in Puerto Rico, some of the intensity rappelling down the dam with a little bit hair raising. But we managed, and I did have some association with it. Sometimes the tendency to wander around and explore and maintain one of the reasons would may be invite me into their houses and they want to talk to me because I could talk a little Spanish. And so it's quite interesting and. So they always receive me very well. I felt a little bit ashamed of myself because they're not NARA in Massachusetts. They were quite a few quarters of Puerto Rican immigrants probably go brought here to work in tobacco harvesting and grazing. And they were kind of looked down upon in their area. And that doesn't seem to Michelle. I was being treated very positively.

[Assistant] And you didn't think that they would have gotten the same treatment in your.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, it was better to be a real worry because that was cooler. But we didn't like we didn't mind running it. Yeah. And it was fun to climb up the ropes on, you know.

[Assistant] So what did you what about Puerto Rico and about Puerto Rico? Was that experience different for you?

[User] Not exactly a Puerto Rico, but it certainly was what was required because I like the greenery, just a round of Arizona. And I enjoyed the physical training in Puerto Rico, some of the intensity rappelling down the dam with a little bit hair raising. But we managed, and I did have some association with it. Sometimes the tendency to wander around and explore and maintain one of the reasons would may be invite me into their houses and they want to talk to me because I could talk a little Spanish. And so it's quite interesting and. So they always receive me very well. I felt a little bit ashamed of myself because they're not NARA in Massachusetts. They were quite a few quarters of Puerto Rican immigrants probably go brought here to work in tobacco harvesting and grazing. And they were kind of looked down upon in their area. And that doesn't seem to Michelle. I was being treated very positively.

[Assistant] And you didn't think that they would have gotten the same treatment in your.

[User] Yeah, so we're trying to see if, in fact, anybody with a Spanish name was at that time was kind of looked at it as being for the.

[Assistant] Ok, well, we had an extended training, as you recall, where we ended up in Miami. What did you think when you got to Miami and we heard the Kennedy speech about the missile crisis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not exactly a Puerto Rico, but it certainly was what was required because I like the greenery, just a round of Arizona. And I enjoyed the physical training in Puerto Rico, some of the intensity rappelling down the dam with a little bit hair raising. But we managed, and I did have some association with it. Sometimes the tendency to wander around and explore and maintain one of the reasons would may be invite me into their houses and they want to talk to me because I could talk a little Spanish. And so it's quite interesting and. So they always receive me very well. I felt a little bit ashamed of myself because they're not NARA in Massachusetts. They were quite a few quarters of Puerto Rican immigrants probably go brought here to work in tobacco harvesting and grazing. And they were kind of looked down upon in their area. And that doesn't seem to Michelle. I was being treated very positively.

[Assistant] And you didn't think that they would have gotten the same treatment in your.

[User] Yeah, so we're trying to see if, in fact, anybody with a Spanish name was at that time was kind of looked at it as being for the.

[Assistant] Ok, well, we had an extended training, as you recall, where we ended up in Miami. What did you think when you got to Miami and we heard the Kennedy speech about the missile crisis?

[User] Well, he said, I was actually a little bit concerned of being right there on the court. I said, if we're going to be bombed, maybe Miami is going to be the first place

[Assistant] 90 miles away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so we're trying to see if, in fact, anybody with a Spanish name was at that time was kind of looked at it as being for the.

[Assistant] Ok, well, we had an extended training, as you recall, where we ended up in Miami. What did you think when you got to Miami and we heard the Kennedy speech about the missile crisis?

[User] Well, he said, I was actually a little bit concerned of being right there on the court. I said, if we're going to be bombed, maybe Miami is going to be the first place

[Assistant] 90 miles away.

[User] Yes, but I was not too worried, however, because I felt that this crisis would probably be resolved. And I did not think that it seemed at that time that we did not get it. We were not advised of the dangerous situation, was maybe to keep us volunteers kind of at ease.

[Assistant] And all the people from Miami were leaving and we were still there. So what did you think about the Vermont where he ended up there? Did you ever consider that maybe we would never get to Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he said, I was actually a little bit concerned of being right there on the court. I said, if we're going to be bombed, maybe Miami is going to be the first place

[Assistant] 90 miles away.

[User] Yes, but I was not too worried, however, because I felt that this crisis would probably be resolved. And I did not think that it seemed at that time that we did not get it. We were not advised of the dangerous situation, was maybe to keep us volunteers kind of at ease.

[Assistant] And all the people from Miami were leaving and we were still there. So what did you think about the Vermont where he ended up there? Did you ever consider that maybe we would never get to Bolivia?

[User] I was wondering, as I said, would we? I know what he said when we landed at the airport, the airport was only about 50 miles to my home here. I'm going home again. And anyway, the training in Vermont was quite interesting and so forth, and I didn't feel really had it. It was kind of an unstructured situation.

[Assistant] We were kind of, I guess, in limbo. Ready to go, but not quite able to be there yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but I was not too worried, however, because I felt that this crisis would probably be resolved. And I did not think that it seemed at that time that we did not get it. We were not advised of the dangerous situation, was maybe to keep us volunteers kind of at ease.

[Assistant] And all the people from Miami were leaving and we were still there. So what did you think about the Vermont where he ended up there? Did you ever consider that maybe we would never get to Bolivia?

[User] I was wondering, as I said, would we? I know what he said when we landed at the airport, the airport was only about 50 miles to my home here. I'm going home again. And anyway, the training in Vermont was quite interesting and so forth, and I didn't feel really had it. It was kind of an unstructured situation.

[Assistant] We were kind of, I guess, in limbo. Ready to go, but not quite able to be there yet.

[User] We had some we had a little physical training course up there, too. And the volunteers complained about the cold in November. And I was used to.

[Assistant] It didn't bother you. OK, well, so now let's go back to when we first got to Bolivia. What were your impressions once you actually set foot in the airport or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had some we had a little physical training course up there, too. And the volunteers complained about the cold in November. And I was used to.

[Assistant] It didn't bother you. OK, well, so now let's go back to when we first got to Bolivia. What were your impressions once you actually set foot in the airport or.

[User] Well, I set forth and then I got off the plane. I could feel that we were at a very high altitude and so forth and so forth, but nothing I didn't feel like I was going to faint. I had been at some high altitude because. But then again, we were taken from the most notable part and was very impressed by the view of a pop up on the level. And here there's a whole series of unfolding before you. And I think at that time, that early morning local time, we had a view that tools, which was a very impressive view. And then, of course, when really I was at the hotel to play palace, we were advised to rest. Well, I couldn't I couldn't sleep in the afternoon. I went down the street, looked everything very interesting. We didn't street markets. When he came back for supper, everybody was asking, where have you been squabbling around the city? Is it worth your time? You actually take a risk notice at that particular time?

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] And was contrasted as maybe a later question.

[Assistant] That's OK. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I set forth and then I got off the plane. I could feel that we were at a very high altitude and so forth and so forth, but nothing I didn't feel like I was going to faint. I had been at some high altitude because. But then again, we were taken from the most notable part and was very impressed by the view of a pop up on the level. And here there's a whole series of unfolding before you. And I think at that time, that early morning local time, we had a view that tools, which was a very impressive view. And then, of course, when really I was at the hotel to play palace, we were advised to rest. Well, I couldn't I couldn't sleep in the afternoon. I went down the street, looked everything very interesting. We didn't street markets. When he came back for supper, everybody was asking, where have you been squabbling around the city? Is it worth your time? You actually take a risk notice at that particular time?

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] And was contrasted as maybe a later question.

[Assistant] That's OK. Go ahead.

[User] How much to the contrast in the population here with people? For instance, your view of the Caucasian race requested conventional wisdom to try to get some anyway to talk to controllers who had their own particular address and so forth, and then also the street vendors.

[Assistant] But a lot of color and. Yes, and textures. So, OK, now then we went to college, but we have I don't know about you, but I have I that was a hair raising trip for me on those narrow roads.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And was contrasted as maybe a later question.

[Assistant] That's OK. Go ahead.

[User] How much to the contrast in the population here with people? For instance, your view of the Caucasian race requested conventional wisdom to try to get some anyway to talk to controllers who had their own particular address and so forth, and then also the street vendors.

[Assistant] But a lot of color and. Yes, and textures. So, OK, now then we went to college, but we have I don't know about you, but I have I that was a hair raising trip for me on those narrow roads.

[User] You sure it was a hair raising trip to me. Much of the way I was driving.

[Assistant] Oh, you were driving. Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How much to the contrast in the population here with people? For instance, your view of the Caucasian race requested conventional wisdom to try to get some anyway to talk to controllers who had their own particular address and so forth, and then also the street vendors.

[Assistant] But a lot of color and. Yes, and textures. So, OK, now then we went to college, but we have I don't know about you, but I have I that was a hair raising trip for me on those narrow roads.

[User] You sure it was a hair raising trip to me. Much of the way I was driving.

[Assistant] Oh, you were driving. Oh my gosh.

[User] And I was maybe being extra cautious because I did not. And I guess I get criticized for one of the leaders of the group because I was going too slow. That's a way. This is a very rough road, those gravel and so forth. And I want to be careful with this vehicle is never mind, we've got to get the culture far before it gets dark. And it's kind of a hair raising drive.

[Assistant] Peter, how old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You sure it was a hair raising trip to me. Much of the way I was driving.

[Assistant] Oh, you were driving. Oh my gosh.

[User] And I was maybe being extra cautious because I did not. And I guess I get criticized for one of the leaders of the group because I was going too slow. That's a way. This is a very rough road, those gravel and so forth. And I want to be careful with this vehicle is never mind, we've got to get the culture far before it gets dark. And it's kind of a hair raising drive.

[Assistant] Peter, how old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] Thirty two.

[Assistant] Thirty two. So you were a little bit older than some of the


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was maybe being extra cautious because I did not. And I guess I get criticized for one of the leaders of the group because I was going too slow. That's a way. This is a very rough road, those gravel and so forth. And I want to be careful with this vehicle is never mind, we've got to get the culture far before it gets dark. And it's kind of a hair raising drive.

[Assistant] Peter, how old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] Thirty two.

[Assistant] Thirty two. So you were a little bit older than some of the

[User] I was older, one of the older members of the crew. We did. I know when we started the initial training that we had a number of people I think of in the 60s and 70s, and I don't quite understand why they were they were rejected or did not pass.

[Assistant] I don't I don't know. I know Ralph Long was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thirty two.

[Assistant] Thirty two. So you were a little bit older than some of the

[User] I was older, one of the older members of the crew. We did. I know when we started the initial training that we had a number of people I think of in the 60s and 70s, and I don't quite understand why they were they were rejected or did not pass.

[Assistant] I don't I don't know. I know Ralph Long was.

[User] Yeah, I know there was a gentleman named Ezra.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was older, one of the older members of the crew. We did. I know when we started the initial training that we had a number of people I think of in the 60s and 70s, and I don't quite understand why they were they were rejected or did not pass.

[Assistant] I don't I don't know. I know Ralph Long was.

[User] Yeah, I know there was a gentleman named Ezra.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] I guess he did not complete the training.

[Assistant] And well, who knows how they decided you would stay and he would go. Oh who knew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I know there was a gentleman named Ezra.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] I guess he did not complete the training.

[Assistant] And well, who knows how they decided you would stay and he would go. Oh who knew.

[User] No, no, no. Oh no, no, no. I mean it was it was kind of a I don't know just what criteria they didn't use.

[Assistant] Yeah. I don't think anybody really knew. Yes. OK, so tell me a little bit about what you were doing in your job in Cochabamba. You’re working with the steel plant or


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I've lived with the family. It was kind of an interesting case. I lived with the lady. Patty was said she had an apartment near the Plaza Colon, if you recall there in Cochabamba. And she was a lady from Luxembourg. And she was kind and kind of temperamental and so forth. And and she and her husband had come to Bolivia after World War Two, and they were worried that Europe was going to be involved in another war that's related to World War Two. Luxembourg, of course, was part of the German empire. And so she and her husband and their son came to Bolivia because they thought it'd be a good refuge from the European wars and so forth. And unfortunately, they were swindled in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Oh, dear.

[User] I guess they came with quite a bit of money. But then when they lost it in Bolivia and her husband ran off with a boyfriend, so she had to set up their own business, I guess she was a dressmaker. So that's how she made her living. But from the start, I noticed that she had quite a few resentments against Bolivians and used to go home. What they call it would be under her notice you of that and many I got wrong. All right. Whether she got tired of me sometimes that if I invaded by certain Bolivians to house because she felt that, well, she felt they might want to be robbed.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] That I'm I did meet a number of interesting people. She will contact with some other fellow Europeans that were in refuges in Japan, but say,

[Assistant] Ok, did you have a roommate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess they came with quite a bit of money. But then when they lost it in Bolivia and her husband ran off with a boyfriend, so she had to set up their own business, I guess she was a dressmaker. So that's how she made her living. But from the start, I noticed that she had quite a few resentments against Bolivians and used to go home. What they call it would be under her notice you of that and many I got wrong. All right. Whether she got tired of me sometimes that if I invaded by certain Bolivians to house because she felt that, well, she felt they might want to be robbed.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] That I'm I did meet a number of interesting people. She will contact with some other fellow Europeans that were in refuges in Japan, but say,

[Assistant] Ok, did you have a roommate?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No, you just, it was just you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No, you just, it was just you.

[User] Thing is, however, that after a few months, it became kind of difficult to live with her. Oh, OK. And you recommended that I maybe should seek water somewhere else. And eventually we did have a breakup. And I think she was also distressed because I was going out with you.

[Assistant] Oh, dear.

[User] So I eventually I moved into another place, which is actually a better location of their collection of Cochabamba cable, which which is much, much nicer location. There I stayed until I got married.

[Assistant] Ok, did you get married after Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thing is, however, that after a few months, it became kind of difficult to live with her. Oh, OK. And you recommended that I maybe should seek water somewhere else. And eventually we did have a breakup. And I think she was also distressed because I was going out with you.

[Assistant] Oh, dear.

[User] So I eventually I moved into another place, which is actually a better location of their collection of Cochabamba cable, which which is much, much nicer location. There I stayed until I got married.

[Assistant] Ok, did you get married after Peace Corps?

[User] No, before. On December 26, 1963.

[Assistant] Wow. I didn’t realize.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I eventually I moved into another place, which is actually a better location of their collection of Cochabamba cable, which which is much, much nicer location. There I stayed until I got married.

[Assistant] Ok, did you get married after Peace Corps?

[User] No, before. On December 26, 1963.

[Assistant] Wow. I didn’t realize.

[User] Day after Christmas Day.

[Assistant] After Christmas. Wow. OK, well I was a pretty significant change for you


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, before. On December 26, 1963.

[Assistant] Wow. I didn’t realize.

[User] Day after Christmas Day.

[Assistant] After Christmas. Wow. OK, well I was a pretty significant change for you

[User] Then, that's for sure. I didn't expect to get married in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so then she came home with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Day after Christmas Day.

[Assistant] After Christmas. Wow. OK, well I was a pretty significant change for you

[User] Then, that's for sure. I didn't expect to get married in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so then she came home with you.

[User] Yes, ma'am. Yeah, he came home plus I adopted a son too. So.

[Assistant] Ok, so think about the end of your first year and were there any outstanding events come to your mind when you think back on your Peace Corps experience? Of course I guess meeting Yolanda.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then, that's for sure. I didn't expect to get married in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so then she came home with you.

[User] Yes, ma'am. Yeah, he came home plus I adopted a son too. So.

[Assistant] Ok, so think about the end of your first year and were there any outstanding events come to your mind when you think back on your Peace Corps experience? Of course I guess meeting Yolanda.

[User] Yeah, that was a radical change.

[Assistant] Anything else that about the experience there that particularly stand out in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, ma'am. Yeah, he came home plus I adopted a son too. So.

[Assistant] Ok, so think about the end of your first year and were there any outstanding events come to your mind when you think back on your Peace Corps experience? Of course I guess meeting Yolanda.

[User] Yeah, that was a radical change.

[Assistant] Anything else that about the experience there that particularly stand out in your mind?

[User] Well, of course I felt that some I felt some at times, sometimes maybe frustrations with working with the Libyan farmers and structural limitations because they're included in Culture Club, because it had the agrarian reform back around 52 or 53. And I felt that so many of the farms that you find were maybe too small to really be economically effective and they did not have adequate irrigation water. And you know how it is only about one parent here you have the rainfall. Here you have a drought and there are many structural limitations. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you ever consider staying in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was a radical change.

[Assistant] Anything else that about the experience there that particularly stand out in your mind?

[User] Well, of course I felt that some I felt some at times, sometimes maybe frustrations with working with the Libyan farmers and structural limitations because they're included in Culture Club, because it had the agrarian reform back around 52 or 53. And I felt that so many of the farms that you find were maybe too small to really be economically effective and they did not have adequate irrigation water. And you know how it is only about one parent here you have the rainfall. Here you have a drought and there are many structural limitations. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you ever consider staying in Bolivia?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What made you change your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course I felt that some I felt some at times, sometimes maybe frustrations with working with the Libyan farmers and structural limitations because they're included in Culture Club, because it had the agrarian reform back around 52 or 53. And I felt that so many of the farms that you find were maybe too small to really be economically effective and they did not have adequate irrigation water. And you know how it is only about one parent here you have the rainfall. Here you have a drought and there are many structural limitations. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you ever consider staying in Bolivia?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What made you change your mind?

[User] Well, I came home and my parents really didn't want to hear me leaving and they really missed me, and that furthermore, I was kind of a little frustrated at first when he came back and I kind of had to get the American ways to manage the people again and. And I did have I did have work immediately, but I worked work for a while on a tobacco farm. And it worked in the paper factory. In the meantime, he had applied for permanent employment with the U.S. Department of Primary School Administration. Eventually, I was selected. And then, of course, I worked into that job, which for 30 years, I guess I became comfortable with this position, so I did not feel like maybe moving back to Bolivia.

[Assistant] So, yeah. So you felt like it would be better to stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What made you change your mind?

[User] Well, I came home and my parents really didn't want to hear me leaving and they really missed me, and that furthermore, I was kind of a little frustrated at first when he came back and I kind of had to get the American ways to manage the people again and. And I did have I did have work immediately, but I worked work for a while on a tobacco farm. And it worked in the paper factory. In the meantime, he had applied for permanent employment with the U.S. Department of Primary School Administration. Eventually, I was selected. And then, of course, I worked into that job, which for 30 years, I guess I became comfortable with this position, so I did not feel like maybe moving back to Bolivia.

[Assistant] So, yeah. So you felt like it would be better to stay?

[User] Yes. And furthermore, our son Alexis is now happily enrolled in an American school. He got a long time. It didn't take long to learn the language.

[Assistant] So that think back, where were you? Do you remember when Kennedy was assassinated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And furthermore, our son Alexis is now happily enrolled in an American school. He got a long time. It didn't take long to learn the language.

[Assistant] So that think back, where were you? Do you remember when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] Oh, yes. Everywhere you go, I will tell you the whole story. OK, I take the vacation down in November, down the alphabet to the countryside. And I saw the and also ended up in Peace Corps volunteers camped out in the real penny right at the end of civilization. Now, I remember that there was, it was a oven. They're made of Adobe, the lady with the use of a debate grid, just like they did in the old days, colonial days in our country. And there was a fire in it that ripped off the clothes. And I stayed there for a few days and I walked over from the countryside and I guess one thing lead to another, you know, I was on the truck together with a bunch of a bunch of campesinos who is also one Caucasian man with a I guess he was an engineer technician. He talked to me quite a bit because he felt maybe more interesting to talk to me than most of the time host that I'd made a point that I noticed him in that clearing. This is where it seemed to me like you're doing you're cultivating up and down is not going to cause erosion. Agency be concerned that you're more concerned about having the land cleared.

[Assistant] Yeah, probably didn't have any farming background.

[User] Yeah, well, you know, up the area, I went from there to an encampment of the Bolivian Development Corporation. And I arrived at the encampment on a Friday, November 23rd. The people in the encampment said your president has been assassinated. What? I could hardly believe it. I thought assassination that’s way in the past history.

[Assistant] Or in other countries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A very shattering. I could hardly believe it.

[Assistant] Because I don't know about you. But one of the reasons I went into the Peace Corps was Kennedy. OK, so you're talking about

[User] I was, yes, a Kennedy, in fact, a few years previously when I was still a student of university. All right. You worked in Massachusetts. Kennedy come to the university when he was a senator. You seem to be quite an idealistic, dynamic person, and I kind of thought I'm a little bit mistaken now at that time, but I thought maybe Eisenhower was kind of staid and stodgy.

[Assistant] But I think Kennedy appealed to the young people because we are so tired of the Cold War. And the idea, you know, his ideas of being able to cross boundaries and go out and do all these things was very attractive to young people. So, did you go to any of the masses? I mean, I know where I went down to Sucre and all the every little wide spot in the road had a flag flying at half mast, the day after.

[User] I don't recall flags flying at half mast. I know, I realize that Kennedy, was very much admired in Bolivia and also I am so of rescued.

[Assistant] So you got married in Bolivia, was it complicated to get married in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, yes, a Kennedy, in fact, a few years previously when I was still a student of university. All right. You worked in Massachusetts. Kennedy come to the university when he was a senator. You seem to be quite an idealistic, dynamic person, and I kind of thought I'm a little bit mistaken now at that time, but I thought maybe Eisenhower was kind of staid and stodgy.

[Assistant] But I think Kennedy appealed to the young people because we are so tired of the Cold War. And the idea, you know, his ideas of being able to cross boundaries and go out and do all these things was very attractive to young people. So, did you go to any of the masses? I mean, I know where I went down to Sucre and all the every little wide spot in the road had a flag flying at half mast, the day after.

[User] I don't recall flags flying at half mast. I know, I realize that Kennedy, was very much admired in Bolivia and also I am so of rescued.

[Assistant] So you got married in Bolivia, was it complicated to get married in Bolivia?

[User] Well, I was married twice because in Boliva, in order for marriage to be legal, you have to go through the civil ceremony.

[Assistant] Civil ceremony and then the church one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall flags flying at half mast. I know, I realize that Kennedy, was very much admired in Bolivia and also I am so of rescued.

[Assistant] So you got married in Bolivia, was it complicated to get married in Bolivia?

[User] Well, I was married twice because in Boliva, in order for marriage to be legal, you have to go through the civil ceremony.

[Assistant] Civil ceremony and then the church one.

[User] Religious is up to you.

[Assistant] OK, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was married twice because in Boliva, in order for marriage to be legal, you have to go through the civil ceremony.

[Assistant] Civil ceremony and then the church one.

[User] Religious is up to you.

[Assistant] OK, I see.

[User] We were married. I was religious ceremonies. Both are very unusual because Yolanda worked for the Institute of Marriage. There was a Methodist institution, in fact, and I met her at the Methodist Church in Cochabamba because I went to the Spanish service and did the union service for four Americans. OK, maybe I kind of want to integrate myself in the country. I want to see much of the sermon I could understand. But marriage was not and was not complicated. We had a simple ceremony, and it was unique because very few people get married in Protestant ceremonies and we looked at that time

[Assistant] Not too often.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Religious is up to you.

[Assistant] OK, I see.

[User] We were married. I was religious ceremonies. Both are very unusual because Yolanda worked for the Institute of Marriage. There was a Methodist institution, in fact, and I met her at the Methodist Church in Cochabamba because I went to the Spanish service and did the union service for four Americans. OK, maybe I kind of want to integrate myself in the country. I want to see much of the sermon I could understand. But marriage was not and was not complicated. We had a simple ceremony, and it was unique because very few people get married in Protestant ceremonies and we looked at that time

[Assistant] Not too often.

[User] It's much more prevalent now because the evangelical churches have become much more common.

[Assistant] So talking about your experience in Bolivia, what do you think were your major accomplishments at the time in your time there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were married. I was religious ceremonies. Both are very unusual because Yolanda worked for the Institute of Marriage. There was a Methodist institution, in fact, and I met her at the Methodist Church in Cochabamba because I went to the Spanish service and did the union service for four Americans. OK, maybe I kind of want to integrate myself in the country. I want to see much of the sermon I could understand. But marriage was not and was not complicated. We had a simple ceremony, and it was unique because very few people get married in Protestant ceremonies and we looked at that time

[Assistant] Not too often.

[User] It's much more prevalent now because the evangelical churches have become much more common.

[Assistant] So talking about your experience in Bolivia, what do you think were your major accomplishments at the time in your time there?

[User] Well, I think the program that you set that every production records, I think was. I hope it will continue, unfortunately. Eric, Eric is not here, and I would hope he could have given us more information about this continuation of work. Then I also have to get that program set up, debris production, testing and handing over, don't asked me to do a study on what was a farm management study. Oh, really? Yes. And he felt that too many of the farmers were not specializing in dairy production, but were also involved in cash crops and so forth, like corn and so forth, that they would even they might be money ahead if they were to specialize in milk production rather than many other places. So he said you might be a good person to do this study. So. So did you. Yes, I did. I did. No, I had no farm to work. That would be reasonable. Republicans would understand the purpose was generally to say they're better educated. I didn't want to think about some of the maybe campesinos that already had two or three thousand. Yeah, we were operating a very limited acreage in

[Assistant] Which they could do different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that yes. That was one of my criticisms of the government reform, because that was a criticism that made many Bolivians also do this study. I didn't talk to these farmers and I set a model where they were saying farming and their changed farming, German determined, which would bring them in greater greater gross income and greater net income. And they found, however, in some cases that they were better off to continue with their present stable farming in which they were to encroach upon. But they would strip the corn above the ears and tell them it's roasting years and feed this dry, glanced over it. The cows, which I didn't have a lucrative

[Assistant] Well, I mean, you know, to a certain extent they were more diversified. You know, now everybody's talking about diversity in terms of production and making it so.

[User] And another factor to that kind of discouraging in Cochabamba was that all the receipts from the bill, for instance, went to a central treasury in La Paz. And then, of course, then the word that filtered back to be redistributed to people in other government entities. There were times, for instance, when the people did not have enough cash to pay the milk producers.

[Assistant] Yeah, because it's probably too much of it stayed in La Paz. Yes. OK, let's ok, whenever you when you say when did you actually go home? In 64, in 1964?

[User] January 1965.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And another factor to that kind of discouraging in Cochabamba was that all the receipts from the bill, for instance, went to a central treasury in La Paz. And then, of course, then the word that filtered back to be redistributed to people in other government entities. There were times, for instance, when the people did not have enough cash to pay the milk producers.

[Assistant] Yeah, because it's probably too much of it stayed in La Paz. Yes. OK, let's ok, whenever you when you say when did you actually go home? In 64, in 1964?

[User] January 1965.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed a little bit.

[User]
I stayed over until December thirty first.

Ok.

We took an unusual, unusual route going home.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Tell me about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] January 1965.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed a little bit.

[User]
I stayed over until December thirty first.

Ok.

We took an unusual, unusual route going home.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Tell me about that.

[User] We went overland.

[Assistant] Oh you did? All the way from Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I stayed over until December thirty first.

Ok.

We took an unusual, unusual route going home.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Tell me about that.

[User] We went overland.

[Assistant] Oh you did? All the way from Bolivia?

[User] All the way from Bolivia to Colombia.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went overland.

[Assistant] Oh you did? All the way from Bolivia?

[User] All the way from Bolivia to Colombia.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] To Bogota, Colombia. Bogota. I think you want to say she's a little bit tired of this overland travel site. I don't think at that time there were any decent, decent roads from local downtown down to the Peruvian coast. Yeah, this is where I will take the plane to stay with the Cartagena. And I was interested in Cartagena because I realized there was a site of a Spain ship, a bunch of its treasure to the home country. There was also a very impressive fortress there that we spent a few days inside the hangar, enjoyed ourselves and the beaches and so forth, and explored that, explored the fortress. The guide pointed out to us that it was something that many attacks by both English and French. He said you couldn't understand deeply about this fortress. We made that always a little bit lower because the Spanish, as a rule, were so much shorter than the English and French, they made it more difficult for the pirates to make their way through it all.

[Assistant] So then from Colombia, where did you put you fly? Directly back to


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the way from Bolivia to Colombia.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] To Bogota, Colombia. Bogota. I think you want to say she's a little bit tired of this overland travel site. I don't think at that time there were any decent, decent roads from local downtown down to the Peruvian coast. Yeah, this is where I will take the plane to stay with the Cartagena. And I was interested in Cartagena because I realized there was a site of a Spain ship, a bunch of its treasure to the home country. There was also a very impressive fortress there that we spent a few days inside the hangar, enjoyed ourselves and the beaches and so forth, and explored that, explored the fortress. The guide pointed out to us that it was something that many attacks by both English and French. He said you couldn't understand deeply about this fortress. We made that always a little bit lower because the Spanish, as a rule, were so much shorter than the English and French, they made it more difficult for the pirates to make their way through it all.

[Assistant] So then from Colombia, where did you put you fly? Directly back to

[User] We flew back to Miami, to Miami. And the first person we visited with my grandmother lived in Sarasota.

[Assistant] But then you ended up back in Massachusetts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Bogota, Colombia. Bogota. I think you want to say she's a little bit tired of this overland travel site. I don't think at that time there were any decent, decent roads from local downtown down to the Peruvian coast. Yeah, this is where I will take the plane to stay with the Cartagena. And I was interested in Cartagena because I realized there was a site of a Spain ship, a bunch of its treasure to the home country. There was also a very impressive fortress there that we spent a few days inside the hangar, enjoyed ourselves and the beaches and so forth, and explored that, explored the fortress. The guide pointed out to us that it was something that many attacks by both English and French. He said you couldn't understand deeply about this fortress. We made that always a little bit lower because the Spanish, as a rule, were so much shorter than the English and French, they made it more difficult for the pirates to make their way through it all.

[Assistant] So then from Colombia, where did you put you fly? Directly back to

[User] We flew back to Miami, to Miami. And the first person we visited with my grandmother lived in Sarasota.

[Assistant] But then you ended up back in Massachusetts?

[User] Yes, and there in Florida. That's, I think, to go overland by now. I'm going to need a car sooner or later. So I bought a car in Florida and we made our way back to Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Great, yeah. I actually drove my car in 1976, five seventy six seventy five from Tucson, Arizona to San Jose, Costa Rica.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We flew back to Miami, to Miami. And the first person we visited with my grandmother lived in Sarasota.

[Assistant] But then you ended up back in Massachusetts?

[User] Yes, and there in Florida. That's, I think, to go overland by now. I'm going to need a car sooner or later. So I bought a car in Florida and we made our way back to Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Great, yeah. I actually drove my car in 1976, five seventy six seventy five from Tucson, Arizona to San Jose, Costa Rica.

[User] Oh, you did?

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, American Highway goes all the way. Yes. And there's like a ferry down below. I didn't watch it. I just needed to get to Costa Rica.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and there in Florida. That's, I think, to go overland by now. I'm going to need a car sooner or later. So I bought a car in Florida and we made our way back to Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Great, yeah. I actually drove my car in 1976, five seventy six seventy five from Tucson, Arizona to San Jose, Costa Rica.

[User] Oh, you did?

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, American Highway goes all the way. Yes. And there's like a ferry down below. I didn't watch it. I just needed to get to Costa Rica.

[User] You went as far as Costa Rica?

[Assistant] Because that's what we were. That was my destination.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You went as far as Costa Rica?

[Assistant] Because that's what we were. That was my destination.

[User] I know you this you worked in Costa Rica for a while.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And and you have to do a lot of barriers that go through. I'm not talking about

[Assistant] Borders, you know, Customs


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know you this you worked in Costa Rica for a while.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And and you have to do a lot of barriers that go through. I'm not talking about

[Assistant] Borders, you know, Customs

[User] Administration and bureaucracy and restrictions on movement.

[Assistant] We are not not too much. You know, it was it was a little I had a Costa Rican lady with me and she would talk with the customs people. And I had everything locked down and I’d start unlocking locks. And the idea was she could convince them to let us through without opening everything. And that worked most of the way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And and you have to do a lot of barriers that go through. I'm not talking about

[Assistant] Borders, you know, Customs

[User] Administration and bureaucracy and restrictions on movement.

[Assistant] We are not not too much. You know, it was it was a little I had a Costa Rican lady with me and she would talk with the customs people. And I had everything locked down and I’d start unlocking locks. And the idea was she could convince them to let us through without opening everything. And that worked most of the way.

[User] Because we had an interesting experience in Colombia regarding officials. And we went from Ecuador into Colombia. We passed through the border and nobody bothered to check our papers or anything of that sort, which we thought was kind of strange for the officials. Go ahead. Well, that were later down the road in Colombia at this point where there were some soldiers stationed.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we had an interesting experience in Colombia regarding officials. And we went from Ecuador into Colombia. We passed through the border and nobody bothered to check our papers or anything of that sort, which we thought was kind of strange for the officials. Go ahead. Well, that were later down the road in Colombia at this point where there were some soldiers stationed.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh.

[User] And they maybe they gave us a hard time because we had not had issues. You're going to have to go back to

[Assistant] Your wanted.

[User] Yes. Yes. And furthermore, I was a little bit then maybe a bit suspicious because I always carry an antique pistol with me. Oh, my goodness. Which were which I was going to give to my dad because he was a gun collector and they were telling us that you people are going to have to go back to the border and have your passport stamped into. Only one now is protesting. Yolanda had the key, she told me, so we've been of girls. She was depressed, not proportionate and equal to the point that I never wanted to see the pictures from there. No, no, no. You can you can go to the next station. Pasto, that's official. There is going to be mass break in the photos. So they let us go ahead.

[Assistant] How much did you have to pay them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. And furthermore, I was a little bit then maybe a bit suspicious because I always carry an antique pistol with me. Oh, my goodness. Which were which I was going to give to my dad because he was a gun collector and they were telling us that you people are going to have to go back to the border and have your passport stamped into. Only one now is protesting. Yolanda had the key, she told me, so we've been of girls. She was depressed, not proportionate and equal to the point that I never wanted to see the pictures from there. No, no, no. You can you can go to the next station. Pasto, that's official. There is going to be mass break in the photos. So they let us go ahead.

[Assistant] How much did you have to pay them?

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] I said I never pay these guys off duty to be here. Well, anyway, when we got the pastor and he went to immigration and the official was very frank, very pleasant, he said we don't need that. Our passport, that's all there is to it.

[Assistant] They were just trying to get money out of here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] I said I never pay these guys off duty to be here. Well, anyway, when we got the pastor and he went to immigration and the official was very frank, very pleasant, he said we don't need that. Our passport, that's all there is to it.

[Assistant] They were just trying to get money out of here.

[User]
Oh yes. That's for sure.

Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. So thinking back about the Peace Corps experience, would you say it for life was a life changing experience for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said I never pay these guys off duty to be here. Well, anyway, when we got the pastor and he went to immigration and the official was very frank, very pleasant, he said we don't need that. Our passport, that's all there is to it.

[Assistant] They were just trying to get money out of here.

[User]
Oh yes. That's for sure.

Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. So thinking back about the Peace Corps experience, would you say it for life was a life changing experience for you?

[User] Yes, it sure was. Yeah, it opened I opened up a mean views about how to maybe deal with people in other countries and appreciate their having an intimate contact with them. I was able to understand their situations where they were coming from.

[Assistant] So what have you been doing since you got out of his car? What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes. That's for sure.

Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. So thinking back about the Peace Corps experience, would you say it for life was a life changing experience for you?

[User] Yes, it sure was. Yeah, it opened I opened up a mean views about how to maybe deal with people in other countries and appreciate their having an intimate contact with them. I was able to understand their situations where they were coming from.

[Assistant] So what have you been doing since you got out of his car? What did you do?

[User] Well, I was at work for Farmers Home Administration for 30 years.

[Assistant] What do you do with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it sure was. Yeah, it opened I opened up a mean views about how to maybe deal with people in other countries and appreciate their having an intimate contact with them. I was able to understand their situations where they were coming from.

[Assistant] So what have you been doing since you got out of his car? What did you do?

[User] Well, I was at work for Farmers Home Administration for 30 years.

[Assistant] What do you do with them?

[User] This is a field of rural credit, OK. We find that on their farms to find out how to do that. OK, I think we're located in the United States. We were. And I was working with farmers houses and also some of the community facilities, credit for rural areas and. And it was in that position, a number of states I started in western New York state and western Pennsylvania, then approval of Florida. I did not care for Florida. Missed the hills. And then they went there. They were transferred back up north and did not have a position open Pennsylvania or New York at that time, but there was one in Connecticut and they said, well, they will pick Connecticut. So that's where. Sure, the majority might. The rest of my time in the Bahamas home in Connecticut, that's where I retired. OK.

[Assistant] Is that where you're living right now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was at work for Farmers Home Administration for 30 years.

[Assistant] What do you do with them?

[User] This is a field of rural credit, OK. We find that on their farms to find out how to do that. OK, I think we're located in the United States. We were. And I was working with farmers houses and also some of the community facilities, credit for rural areas and. And it was in that position, a number of states I started in western New York state and western Pennsylvania, then approval of Florida. I did not care for Florida. Missed the hills. And then they went there. They were transferred back up north and did not have a position open Pennsylvania or New York at that time, but there was one in Connecticut and they said, well, they will pick Connecticut. So that's where. Sure, the majority might. The rest of my time in the Bahamas home in Connecticut, that's where I retired. OK.

[Assistant] Is that where you're living right now?

[User] Only living in western New York State. OK, I think we're going about, oh, about 70 miles from.

[Assistant] And as your son grow and


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is a field of rural credit, OK. We find that on their farms to find out how to do that. OK, I think we're located in the United States. We were. And I was working with farmers houses and also some of the community facilities, credit for rural areas and. And it was in that position, a number of states I started in western New York state and western Pennsylvania, then approval of Florida. I did not care for Florida. Missed the hills. And then they went there. They were transferred back up north and did not have a position open Pennsylvania or New York at that time, but there was one in Connecticut and they said, well, they will pick Connecticut. So that's where. Sure, the majority might. The rest of my time in the Bahamas home in Connecticut, that's where I retired. OK.

[Assistant] Is that where you're living right now?

[User] Only living in western New York State. OK, I think we're going about, oh, about 70 miles from.

[Assistant] And as your son grow and

[User] My son, we find it very interesting. He is now back in Bolivia. Oh, yeah. He has a hankering to start a business in Bolivia. I think it's been very risky and so forth, and in some ways I've been a venture capitalist and he's trying to start a factory in the village, now it’s a city called Cobija.

[Assistant] Oh, really? Is that a city now that


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only living in western New York State. OK, I think we're going about, oh, about 70 miles from.

[Assistant] And as your son grow and

[User] My son, we find it very interesting. He is now back in Bolivia. Oh, yeah. He has a hankering to start a business in Bolivia. I think it's been very risky and so forth, and in some ways I've been a venture capitalist and he's trying to start a factory in the village, now it’s a city called Cobija.

[Assistant] Oh, really? Is that a city now that

[User] You know where Cobija is at?

[Assistant] It's at, Cobija was just a kind of place. It wasn’t


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My son, we find it very interesting. He is now back in Bolivia. Oh, yeah. He has a hankering to start a business in Bolivia. I think it's been very risky and so forth, and in some ways I've been a venture capitalist and he's trying to start a factory in the village, now it’s a city called Cobija.

[Assistant] Oh, really? Is that a city now that

[User] You know where Cobija is at?

[Assistant] It's at, Cobija was just a kind of place. It wasn’t

[User] Well he said that is grown a great deal. It's on the it's on the border with Brazil. I the river divides it, I guess, to facilitate communications between the two countries. Brazil build a modern bridge and a lot of trade, I think essentially goes to work to build rather than to put it here. The standpoint of geographic, geography and so forth, it's more logical in its orientation would be toward Brazil. But he said it's a growing community. You kind of compare situation, situation between Mexico and the United States, where there's too many businesses like this in Mexico, where every we the cost of operation is less. But the market is in safe. Yeah.

[Assistant] And global influences. OK, one thing about. As far as evaluating the Peace Corps service, there are three things that they they had goals that they had. One was to provide technical assistance. One was to promote a better understanding of the U.S. And one was to promote a better understanding of other people like Americans. So did you feel that you were generally able to meet those goals with your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, yes, she does. She has been a long time jetting back and forth because after all, the air travel is getting much more expensive as know where. She kind of would like to live in Bolivia. I do kind of a conflict over that, whether or not it's the people at this point, I feel that we can we could probably live in. Actually, quite comfortably. Yeah. And. Yes, I think he has a part would have been he in the USA and he was in Kuwait for quite a bit of time and he felt he was somewhat more of an important person to share my opinion. And we were say one time he managed the campaign of the governor.

[Assistant] In that in Bolivia?

[User] Yes, ma'am. Because he remains a politician says, yeah, yeah. They get him into trouble because you have to make, you know, private. There was a bloody massacre in Cobija.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, and the government, the government and others, he was great to campesinos were all upset and I guess they wanted to march on Cobija. And he he was trying to stem the. And I guess he posted what troops were available to keep them from entering the city, but nevertheless campesinos got violent over some matters and. They were all armed. And bloodshed broke out, several people were massacred. And the government. Even when I was with the president. That was, of course, very partial to Singer. He immediately. The whole your whole detachment of troops and what they're going to do, and I understand there was immediately going to propose in the present as far as I know.

[Assistant] So any discussions you need to kind of be careful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, ma'am. Because he remains a politician says, yeah, yeah. They get him into trouble because you have to make, you know, private. There was a bloody massacre in Cobija.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, and the government, the government and others, he was great to campesinos were all upset and I guess they wanted to march on Cobija. And he he was trying to stem the. And I guess he posted what troops were available to keep them from entering the city, but nevertheless campesinos got violent over some matters and. They were all armed. And bloodshed broke out, several people were massacred. And the government. Even when I was with the president. That was, of course, very partial to Singer. He immediately. The whole your whole detachment of troops and what they're going to do, and I understand there was immediately going to propose in the present as far as I know.

[Assistant] So any discussions you need to kind of be careful.

[User] And stay in prison anyway. Why did you Bolivians who are associated with this massacre here, Fernando, just trying to avoid of bloodshed. But the government just yet, corporate detachment beforehand, but they will not send the troops. Well, anyway, shortly after that, my son was on his blacklist, he being a collaborator with Fernandez and being involved in massacres and so forth. The thing is, it was quite a few other people from Korea who had to leave the country or escape into Brazil. Thing is, however, that our son in law was in Cochabamba at the time of the massacre, preparing to come to the U.S., but that did not make any difference with the governmental authority. They still said he was he put his name on the blacklist, I suppose, because he met he managed Fernandez's campaign. Sure. He was guilt by association.

[Assistant] Was he able to get out eventually?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and the government, the government and others, he was great to campesinos were all upset and I guess they wanted to march on Cobija. And he he was trying to stem the. And I guess he posted what troops were available to keep them from entering the city, but nevertheless campesinos got violent over some matters and. They were all armed. And bloodshed broke out, several people were massacred. And the government. Even when I was with the president. That was, of course, very partial to Singer. He immediately. The whole your whole detachment of troops and what they're going to do, and I understand there was immediately going to propose in the present as far as I know.

[Assistant] So any discussions you need to kind of be careful.

[User] And stay in prison anyway. Why did you Bolivians who are associated with this massacre here, Fernando, just trying to avoid of bloodshed. But the government just yet, corporate detachment beforehand, but they will not send the troops. Well, anyway, shortly after that, my son was on his blacklist, he being a collaborator with Fernandez and being involved in massacres and so forth. The thing is, it was quite a few other people from Korea who had to leave the country or escape into Brazil. Thing is, however, that our son in law was in Cochabamba at the time of the massacre, preparing to come to the U.S., but that did not make any difference with the governmental authority. They still said he was he put his name on the blacklist, I suppose, because he met he managed Fernandez's campaign. Sure. He was guilt by association.

[Assistant] Was he able to get out eventually?

[User] I guess he was using a lot of manipulation. And he's an expert in manipulating people and lawyers. And so we did get him out to the USA.

[Assistant] Ok, so you still might end up going back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And stay in prison anyway. Why did you Bolivians who are associated with this massacre here, Fernando, just trying to avoid of bloodshed. But the government just yet, corporate detachment beforehand, but they will not send the troops. Well, anyway, shortly after that, my son was on his blacklist, he being a collaborator with Fernandez and being involved in massacres and so forth. The thing is, it was quite a few other people from Korea who had to leave the country or escape into Brazil. Thing is, however, that our son in law was in Cochabamba at the time of the massacre, preparing to come to the U.S., but that did not make any difference with the governmental authority. They still said he was he put his name on the blacklist, I suppose, because he met he managed Fernandez's campaign. Sure. He was guilt by association.

[Assistant] Was he able to get out eventually?

[User] I guess he was using a lot of manipulation. And he's an expert in manipulating people and lawyers. And so we did get him out to the USA.

[Assistant] Ok, so you still might end up going back?

[User] My wife would like to. I think she would like to live there, but she's not too keen about either Cochabamba or La Paz. She doesn't like La Paz because of the altitude.

[Assistant] What is she thinking and where is she thinking she would like to live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess he was using a lot of manipulation. And he's an expert in manipulating people and lawyers. And so we did get him out to the USA.

[Assistant] Ok, so you still might end up going back?

[User] My wife would like to. I think she would like to live there, but she's not too keen about either Cochabamba or La Paz. She doesn't like La Paz because of the altitude.

[Assistant] What is she thinking and where is she thinking she would like to live?

[User] Well, she's heard about a village called Samaipata.

[Assistant] Where is that? In the Yungas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My wife would like to. I think she would like to live there, but she's not too keen about either Cochabamba or La Paz. She doesn't like La Paz because of the altitude.

[Assistant] What is she thinking and where is she thinking she would like to live?

[User] Well, she's heard about a village called Samaipata.

[Assistant] Where is that? In the Yungas?

[User] No, it’s on the road between Santa Cruz and Cochabamba. It's about, I think, about 70 miles, about 75 miles west of Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] Must be a new development.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, she's heard about a village called Samaipata.

[Assistant] Where is that? In the Yungas?

[User] No, it’s on the road between Santa Cruz and Cochabamba. It's about, I think, about 70 miles, about 75 miles west of Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] Must be a new development.

[User] Quite a few Americans and other foreigners have settled there. And it's well, it's hard to remember Europeans are there. There's also, I guess, Americans have settled there. That's become quite a pleasant village. And that one area that they're also developing in the vineyards right ow. And the climate is almost ideal just to

[Assistant] Kind of be like California. It's just grapes and things like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it’s on the road between Santa Cruz and Cochabamba. It's about, I think, about 70 miles, about 75 miles west of Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] Must be a new development.

[User] Quite a few Americans and other foreigners have settled there. And it's well, it's hard to remember Europeans are there. There's also, I guess, Americans have settled there. That's become quite a pleasant village. And that one area that they're also developing in the vineyards right ow. And the climate is almost ideal just to

[Assistant] Kind of be like California. It's just grapes and things like that.

[User] Yes. It's actually not so far, but it's a somewhat higher altitude from Santa Cruz. So, yeah, there's not the extremes of heat.

[Assistant] Ok, well, that's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite a few Americans and other foreigners have settled there. And it's well, it's hard to remember Europeans are there. There's also, I guess, Americans have settled there. That's become quite a pleasant village. And that one area that they're also developing in the vineyards right ow. And the climate is almost ideal just to

[Assistant] Kind of be like California. It's just grapes and things like that.

[User] Yes. It's actually not so far, but it's a somewhat higher altitude from Santa Cruz. So, yeah, there's not the extremes of heat.

[Assistant] Ok, well, that's great.

[User] And she kind of would like to go there and talk about it too much lately because we're kind of in conflict. We do have her granddaughters here and two of my granddaughters live in the area.

[Assistant] Is the granddaughters are who? That's your sons?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's actually not so far, but it's a somewhat higher altitude from Santa Cruz. So, yeah, there's not the extremes of heat.

[Assistant] Ok, well, that's great.

[User] And she kind of would like to go there and talk about it too much lately because we're kind of in conflict. We do have her granddaughters here and two of my granddaughters live in the area.

[Assistant] Is the granddaughters are who? That's your sons?

[User] Yes. Yes. One of the granddaughter is now living with us and we've got two grandsons also. But there in Colorado, they're taking their fortune there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, I think, you know, do you have anything else you would like to comment on, Peter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she kind of would like to go there and talk about it too much lately because we're kind of in conflict. We do have her granddaughters here and two of my granddaughters live in the area.

[Assistant] Is the granddaughters are who? That's your sons?

[User] Yes. Yes. One of the granddaughter is now living with us and we've got two grandsons also. But there in Colorado, they're taking their fortune there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, I think, you know, do you have anything else you would like to comment on, Peter?

[User] Well, I'm very grateful for this interview, and I think you you've done a very effective job.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know about that, but I think it's important for us to try to get as many stories about people's experiences in the Peace Corps because we're not getting any younger. Yeah, so we're not getting any younger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. One of the granddaughter is now living with us and we've got two grandsons also. But there in Colorado, they're taking their fortune there.

[Assistant] All right. Well, I think, you know, do you have anything else you would like to comment on, Peter?

[User] Well, I'm very grateful for this interview, and I think you you've done a very effective job.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know about that, but I think it's important for us to try to get as many stories about people's experiences in the Peace Corps because we're not getting any younger. Yeah, so we're not getting any younger.

[User] I mean, I look at my age, I said I'm way beyond the average age of Americans. So we're going to be like a living on borrowed time. Fortunately, I'm in good health.

[Assistant] And that's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm very grateful for this interview, and I think you you've done a very effective job.

[Assistant] Well, I don't know about that, but I think it's important for us to try to get as many stories about people's experiences in the Peace Corps because we're not getting any younger. Yeah, so we're not getting any younger.

[User] I mean, I look at my age, I said I'm way beyond the average age of Americans. So we're going to be like a living on borrowed time. Fortunately, I'm in good health.

[Assistant] And that's good.

[User] I don't take any medicines.

[Assistant] Well, there you go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I look at my age, I said I'm way beyond the average age of Americans. So we're going to be like a living on borrowed time. Fortunately, I'm in good health.

[Assistant] And that's good.

[User] I don't take any medicines.

[Assistant] Well, there you go.

[User] I don't know about you whether you’re in good health, you look good.

[Assistant] Yeah, pretty good. Pretty good. So. All right. Well, I think we'll just call this put a stop to this right now then. And thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You haven’t ever seen the Apollo gloves? I want you to take your hand, this hand here, that’s right. Now, the gloves are designed like this, okay? Designed like this. All right, now open up your hand. Don’t move your arm. Open up your hand. Move it up. Open up your hand. Open up your hand. You feel that pressure?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Now, you put your hand like this. [Demonstrates.] All right. Now open up your hand. You feel the pressure in here?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] What happened is that the gloves were the only thing that was proprietary. Nobody screwed with the gloves except the guy who was responsible for them. Those gloves were very hard to work with. When I first got in the gloves, I thought they were kidding me. They said, “Try this one.”\n\n I thought, “My goodness gracious, I might be able to do this three times and quit.” That was a problem. But they had to have the gloves on because they were part of the contamination procedures.\n\n Okay. Go ahead and ask the next question.

[Assistant]
I think that’s it for the LRL, unless you have some questions, Rebecca.

No.

You had mentioned earlier that you started working on the medical facility for the Space Station. How did you move from the LRL, something that’s very focused on geology, to something focused on human anatomy and those fields?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did anything. The only thing I did was provide the—if they said, “Hey, Mike, we need this,” then we made sure they got that. A lot of that stuff was handled by outside doctors, by the way, at least from my viewpoint, because the medical center at Houston provided a lot of doctors. If they thought there was a problem, they brought in the expertise of those doctors.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to work with any of the M.D.’s that came in as astronauts?

[User] Yes. Dave Wolfe and Bernard A. Harris, Jr. You know who Bernard Harris is?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He went up on the Shuttle. He’s very smart and very nice. He’s a real gentleman. I worked with him. I worked with some of the astronauts because of the scientific experiments. If there was an experiment going on the flight and I happened to be in charge of it, I’d have to go in and set them up and say, “This is what we want. Are there any questions?”\n\n They’d look it over and say, “No, we’re in good shape. Thanks, Mike.”\n\n So that was basically it. But the original astronauts, I never had to work with the original astronauts. I never had anything to do with the training portion. The geologists had to do all the geological training and since I was part of geology, I’d get a lot of stories from them.

[Assistant] What were some of the experiments that you worked on for the Space Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did go to the University of Vermont, but I was an English major and I had never had anything to do with cows except once I won a cow milking contest, which had to do with, I think that you had to fill a test tube full of milk and then you won the contest. So it wasn't like milking a cow. I learned it all. I learned all of that. And then I also, I also had to teach them how to artificially inseminate cows and castrate bulls, because the whole idea was we were trying to get rid of the local herds, the local farm, the local cows, because the local cows were not. They did not produce a lot of either milk or good beef. So we were introducing European herds by artificial insemination. And then we would castrate the local bulls, or I would teach them how to do it.

[Assistant] So this was all through semen, not through importing cow, uh, bulls?

[User] No. Through semen that was imported.

[Assistant] So imported.

[User] Yes. Yes. There may have been some, but not, not on our scheme, not on our schemes. It was importing semen from Europe, from England primarily.

[Assistant] So milking a cow seems easier than castrating a bull.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Through semen that was imported.

[Assistant] So imported.

[User] Yes. Yes. There may have been some, but not, not on our scheme, not on our schemes. It was importing semen from Europe, from England primarily.

[Assistant] So milking a cow seems easier than castrating a bull.

[User] Yes, but, um.

[Assistant] How did you manage that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. There may have been some, but not, not on our scheme, not on our schemes. It was importing semen from Europe, from England primarily.

[Assistant] So milking a cow seems easier than castrating a bull.

[User] Yes, but, um.

[Assistant] How did you manage that?

[User] Ah, well, I was taught at a farmers training center in Nakuru. I lived in a place called Naivasha, which is up on the Kinangop there, where all the farms were very, very high. But we all went to a farmers training center where they taught us how to do this, how to artificially inseminate cows and castrate bulls. So it wasn't, it wasn't a skill that I came with. I was one of those BA generalists. I basically, you know, had majored in English and could read Shakespeare.

[Assistant] Which is a worthwhile thing in any case. You said you were the only woman in, in this part of the country at least. There were three all over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but, um.

[Assistant] How did you manage that?

[User] Ah, well, I was taught at a farmers training center in Nakuru. I lived in a place called Naivasha, which is up on the Kinangop there, where all the farms were very, very high. But we all went to a farmers training center where they taught us how to do this, how to artificially inseminate cows and castrate bulls. So it wasn't, it wasn't a skill that I came with. I was one of those BA generalists. I basically, you know, had majored in English and could read Shakespeare.

[Assistant] Which is a worthwhile thing in any case. You said you were the only woman in, in this part of the country at least. There were three all over.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you interact with the local women a lot or were you mostly working with the men?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah, well, I was taught at a farmers training center in Nakuru. I lived in a place called Naivasha, which is up on the Kinangop there, where all the farms were very, very high. But we all went to a farmers training center where they taught us how to do this, how to artificially inseminate cows and castrate bulls. So it wasn't, it wasn't a skill that I came with. I was one of those BA generalists. I basically, you know, had majored in English and could read Shakespeare.

[Assistant] Which is a worthwhile thing in any case. You said you were the only woman in, in this part of the country at least. There were three all over.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you interact with the local women a lot or were you mostly working with the men?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or did women take care of the cows, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you have to iron them still. And I still I don't like to iron any more than I did then.

[Assistant] So I'd like to go back to the milk. What did Kikuyu children drink? They just didn't drink milk, or they drank whole milk before?

[User] They drank whole milk before the creamery. But the creamer had been there about ten years by the time we were there. It was run by a Dutch family. You know, it was, it was. They were hired by the Kenyan government. But then they just drank milk. There weren't things like soft drinks and things like that then, you know.

[Assistant] But they drank milk. It just never occurred to them once the cream was taken off, that there was still?

[User] It was just no good. So they kept some of the milk for the kids to drink. But they wanted to make money because they needed the money to buy seeds and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Sure, sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They drank whole milk before the creamery. But the creamer had been there about ten years by the time we were there. It was run by a Dutch family. You know, it was, it was. They were hired by the Kenyan government. But then they just drank milk. There weren't things like soft drinks and things like that then, you know.

[Assistant] But they drank milk. It just never occurred to them once the cream was taken off, that there was still?

[User] It was just no good. So they kept some of the milk for the kids to drink. But they wanted to make money because they needed the money to buy seeds and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Sure, sure.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you did that for two, for the whole two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just no good. So they kept some of the milk for the kids to drink. But they wanted to make money because they needed the money to buy seeds and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Sure, sure.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you did that for two, for the whole two years?

[User] No, we didn't do that for the whole two years because we had been there, um. We had been there about, uh, one year. One year when we went to climb Kilimanjaro and we went for a visit with a whole bunch of guys. I was the only woman, of course, and we climbed Kilimanjaro. Then we went to Lamu, which is an island off of Kenya, and then we came back. And when we got back, our director told us that we had to move immediately because we had been accused of being CIA agents. Now, I understand that, you know that evidently.

[Assistant] You were not the only one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you did that for two, for the whole two years?

[User] No, we didn't do that for the whole two years because we had been there, um. We had been there about, uh, one year. One year when we went to climb Kilimanjaro and we went for a visit with a whole bunch of guys. I was the only woman, of course, and we climbed Kilimanjaro. Then we went to Lamu, which is an island off of Kenya, and then we came back. And when we got back, our director told us that we had to move immediately because we had been accused of being CIA agents. Now, I understand that, you know that evidently.

[Assistant] You were not the only one.

[User] That was fairy common. Yes, that evidently was I wouldn't say common, but we were not the only ones, not, not in our group, but around the world. There were people. So we, uh, so we moved from this small town called Njabini to a town up north, still in the same area, still up in the white highlands, to a place at the time was called Thomsons Falls. Now it has a Kikuyu name, Nyahururu, which is Nya- hu-ru-ru.

[Assistant] We'll do that later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn't do that for the whole two years because we had been there, um. We had been there about, uh, one year. One year when we went to climb Kilimanjaro and we went for a visit with a whole bunch of guys. I was the only woman, of course, and we climbed Kilimanjaro. Then we went to Lamu, which is an island off of Kenya, and then we came back. And when we got back, our director told us that we had to move immediately because we had been accused of being CIA agents. Now, I understand that, you know that evidently.

[Assistant] You were not the only one.

[User] That was fairy common. Yes, that evidently was I wouldn't say common, but we were not the only ones, not, not in our group, but around the world. There were people. So we, uh, so we moved from this small town called Njabini to a town up north, still in the same area, still up in the white highlands, to a place at the time was called Thomsons Falls. Now it has a Kikuyu name, Nyahururu, which is Nya- hu-ru-ru.

[Assistant] We'll do that later.

[User] Right, right, right. Yes. So that's, uh, yeah. So we were in two different places, and then my first child was born there. Yeah, Sean was born in Kenya, in Nairobi. So we then lived in Nairobi for about three months before we left, before we finished our tour of duty.

[Assistant] And, well, that seems like another whole story. What, now I'd like to explore that a little bit as well. But when you were in Thomsons Falls, did you do the same kind of work as you did before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was fairy common. Yes, that evidently was I wouldn't say common, but we were not the only ones, not, not in our group, but around the world. There were people. So we, uh, so we moved from this small town called Njabini to a town up north, still in the same area, still up in the white highlands, to a place at the time was called Thomsons Falls. Now it has a Kikuyu name, Nyahururu, which is Nya- hu-ru-ru.

[Assistant] We'll do that later.

[User] Right, right, right. Yes. So that's, uh, yeah. So we were in two different places, and then my first child was born there. Yeah, Sean was born in Kenya, in Nairobi. So we then lived in Nairobi for about three months before we left, before we finished our tour of duty.

[Assistant] And, well, that seems like another whole story. What, now I'd like to explore that a little bit as well. But when you were in Thomsons Falls, did you do the same kind of work as you did before?

[User] Yes, basically did the same. Yes. Basically did the same kind of work. Yes.

[Assistant] Also with a Kikuyu population?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right, right. Yes. So that's, uh, yeah. So we were in two different places, and then my first child was born there. Yeah, Sean was born in Kenya, in Nairobi. So we then lived in Nairobi for about three months before we left, before we finished our tour of duty.

[Assistant] And, well, that seems like another whole story. What, now I'd like to explore that a little bit as well. But when you were in Thomsons Falls, did you do the same kind of work as you did before?

[User] Yes, basically did the same. Yes. Basically did the same kind of work. Yes.

[Assistant] Also with a Kikuyu population?

[User] Kikuyu, yes. Kikuyu is the largest tribe. Kenyatta is a Kikuyu, was a Kikuyu. And, um, Thomsons Falls is also a Kikuyu area. That whole area there below the Aberdare Mountains is all a Kikuyu area.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of Kikuyu customs or unique characteristics that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, basically did the same. Yes. Basically did the same kind of work. Yes.

[Assistant] Also with a Kikuyu population?

[User] Kikuyu, yes. Kikuyu is the largest tribe. Kenyatta is a Kikuyu, was a Kikuyu. And, um, Thomsons Falls is also a Kikuyu area. That whole area there below the Aberdare Mountains is all a Kikuyu area.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of Kikuyu customs or unique characteristics that?

[User] Well, how strong the women were, carrying all of that wood on their backs. That is for sure. Uh.

[Assistant] And were they open to Peace Corps volunteers? Were they friendly or suspicious of you? Men or women.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kikuyu, yes. Kikuyu is the largest tribe. Kenyatta is a Kikuyu, was a Kikuyu. And, um, Thomsons Falls is also a Kikuyu area. That whole area there below the Aberdare Mountains is all a Kikuyu area.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of Kikuyu customs or unique characteristics that?

[User] Well, how strong the women were, carrying all of that wood on their backs. That is for sure. Uh.

[Assistant] And were they open to Peace Corps volunteers? Were they friendly or suspicious of you? Men or women.

[User] Suspicious of us? Well, obviously, we were accused of being CIA agents, but that I'm not sure we had to do with being suspicious. That was a political kind of thing because there was a great presence of Russians and Chinese in East Africa at that time. You know, they were trying to sow the seeds of communism in that.

[Assistant] So who do you think accused you? Do you think it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, how strong the women were, carrying all of that wood on their backs. That is for sure. Uh.

[Assistant] And were they open to Peace Corps volunteers? Were they friendly or suspicious of you? Men or women.

[User] Suspicious of us? Well, obviously, we were accused of being CIA agents, but that I'm not sure we had to do with being suspicious. That was a political kind of thing because there was a great presence of Russians and Chinese in East Africa at that time. You know, they were trying to sow the seeds of communism in that.

[Assistant] So who do you think accused you? Do you think it was?

[User] I know, I think I'm quite sure, it was, it was a settlement officer. You know, there were these settlement schemes had settlement officers and some of them were, most of them were Kenyan and some of them were Peace Corps or European. European. And I think it was one particular guy who wasn't too happy to have us there and he was a little bit worried about his job and had studied in Russia and, um, you know, just didn't want to have any U.S. people around.

[Assistant] Well, I find this very interesting that you had a child in, in Kenya. When we were in the Peace Corps, we were led to believe that if you got pregnant, you were out of country. So I guess that was not the case in Kenya at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn't the case in Kenya. It was certainly not, uh, encouraged. It was not encouraged at all. But we had a director who was very. We were going, it was almost at the end of our, our stay there, as our service there. And Bob Poole was a terrific guy. He was the director of the Peace Corps there. And he said, yes, we could have a child there. And there was actually another couple who had a child before we did in the teaching group, not in our, not in our group, but in the teaching group.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
So I was, you know, I was upcountry. I was way upcountry in a house that had no electricity, no running water. And I went to, I found out that I was pregnant in the town of Thomsons Falls. It was the second town. And I thought I was pregnant. I went to the doctor there. There was a doctor who was actually a German doctor. He probably was an escape, you know, a Nazi, escaped Nazi. But, you know, at the time, how did I know? And it was a teeny little office that was maybe as big as from the window there to the fireplace. And the door was, the door to the street, which was a dirt street, was just a piece of cloth, heavy piece of cloth.

And, you know, that's where I went to the doctor until I think I had had, yes, I had a couple of appointments with a doctor in Nairobi who was actually a flying doctor and Doctors Without Borders. And he was American.

[Assistant] So what is a flying doctor?

[User] Well, it was the same as doctors. It was at that time that doctors would go when there was an emergency in a small town.

[Assistant] And fly from Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So I was, you know, I was upcountry. I was way upcountry in a house that had no electricity, no running water. And I went to, I found out that I was pregnant in the town of Thomsons Falls. It was the second town. And I thought I was pregnant. I went to the doctor there. There was a doctor who was actually a German doctor. He probably was an escape, you know, a Nazi, escaped Nazi. But, you know, at the time, how did I know? And it was a teeny little office that was maybe as big as from the window there to the fireplace. And the door was, the door to the street, which was a dirt street, was just a piece of cloth, heavy piece of cloth.

And, you know, that's where I went to the doctor until I think I had had, yes, I had a couple of appointments with a doctor in Nairobi who was actually a flying doctor and Doctors Without Borders. And he was American.

[Assistant] So what is a flying doctor?

[User] Well, it was the same as doctors. It was at that time that doctors would go when there was an emergency in a small town.

[Assistant] And fly from Nairobi?

[User] Fly from Nairobi. Yes. He was, I'm not sure if it was he was a missionary or not. He had his own practice and then he was also a flying doctor. So he was my, he was my doctor and he was the doctor who delivered. I came into Nairobi. We moved from upcountry where we had all been riding motorcycles, and that was it on dirt roads. And we moved into Nairobi about a month before Sean was due, and he came about two weeks early, so as a very small baby, so lucky that we moved into town because it would have been not a good thing to be way upcountry on those dirt roads. There was no hospital or clinic or anything. The closest was in Nairobi, which was several hours away.

[Assistant] Yeah. So everything worked out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And everything, yeah, everything. Everything worked out. I can't say it was the easiest time of my life, but everything worked out. I can remember one interesting something that you might be interested in is that I'm an only child, so I don't know anything about boys. I only know about girls. But my husband was insistent that, that if it's a boy, he'd be circumcised. And the British do not circumcise their kids. So. The doctor, yeah. Because then we had not only our regular doctor, but we had a specialist because it was a bit of a difficult birth and, uh, but he was actually from South Africa and he was an ob gyn, but so neither one of them were very enthusiastic about circumcising this baby.

So it didn't happen like it did here where you just go [clicks] right in the hospital. I had to wait for several weeks because the baby was very small and they weren't very excited. So finally, finally one of the doctors came to the house and circumcised him. But I remember that very clearly because the same thing happened. My third child was born in London, in London, and the same thing happened with Brett, the same thing because, you know, there we were in a British hospital. Nobody wanted to circumcise the baby, but it happened in the hospital at that time. Yeah. And I lived in a house, so I lived in a house. We had moved into Nairobi and we lived in a house that was actually owned by a, a couple who he, he was Kenyan as European, but he had been born there and his wife was a nurse.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So that was very nice for me as a, as a new mother, knowing absolutely nothing about babies or anything. She was terrific.

[Assistant] What did your parents think about all of that?

[User] Well, you know, in those days.

[Assistant] I can imagine my mother would have been over there immediately.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was very nice for me as a, as a new mother, knowing absolutely nothing about babies or anything. She was terrific.

[Assistant] What did your parents think about all of that?

[User] Well, you know, in those days.

[Assistant] I can imagine my mother would have been over there immediately.

[User] Oh, no, no, no. They just, well, they thought it was good, good, good. They sent me a telegram and, uh, I have still have the telegram. And they didn't come over. They didn't. I didn't invite them over, but they just didn't even think about it. They were in circumstances where they couldn't come over at that time because they had bought a motor inn in their retirement years, which was a crazy thing to do, but it really tied them down and, um. They were very happy to meet the baby when he was came back to the States.

[Assistant] But being upcountry and being pregnant, they were calm about all of that?