[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I can't answer that. I don't know. It was small, but I'll tell you today it is big. Forty years later, every place I went last two years ago in Colombia.

Go on, we could talk forever.

[Assistant] So you were talking a little bit about Ibagué.

[User] Ibagué, yes. Today Ibagué is for me, and of course, I'm no expert, the most changed city in the 40 years I was gone. Ibagué has exploded. We could not even find our old neighborhood. But the gobernación building is still there. We stayed in a hotel directly across the street. It was very, very much deja vu. And at the time we were there two years ago, was when the kidnappings, FARC had kidnapped all those people. There was a banner the size they hang at the Kennedy Center. The banner must have been 50 feet by 20 feet, hanging down with pictures of these hostages. And, you know, just after that, that lady was released. You know that, I forget the name, it begins with a B, I'll think of it. So it was, you know, the political situation is still very iffy.

[Assistant] So when you were talking about the in-services that you would do for teachers, that was in Ibagué?

[User] That was in Ibagué. Now, so we changed in midstream, half a year, I mean, at one-year point. The three of us were split up. I think they thought we were having too much fun because everybody was, all the men were coming to Ibagué for the parties and Folclórico and all that stuff. And we had an apartment and we had a lot of room. We had a roof that became quite popular.

[Assistant] So you lived in a house with two other women from Peace Corps as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's still a mystery. I'm not quite sure how that worked. The three of us hung around together, Bill, Bill and me. All the time. And we were fairly, um, I guess we were considered the square- ist of the bunch. I'm not sure, but that's what it was. Because whenever one of the men, one of the young men, one of the other men would try to would get serious with a girl. He'd ask if he could, if they could come to the movies with us or could we have dinner. Like, could Janet and I have dinner with you guys tonight? Well, sure, fine. So people would ask me, Bunny.

[Assistant] Keeping up appearances.

[User] Evidently.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Bunny, and I was a little bit unaware of this when it was happening, which one of them are you dating? And I said, I don't know. I really don't know. And I didn't.

[Assistant] That's so funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Evidently.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Bunny, and I was a little bit unaware of this when it was happening, which one of them are you dating? And I said, I don't know. I really don't know. And I didn't.

[Assistant] That's so funny.

[User] I didn't know. So we had decided, the three of us, to have a little business when we got home, a little export and import business. And we bought several, we bought a lot of inventory from the craftsman, the artisans. And so we had my dad who was in advertising with his company, do a, you know, a lookout for three cities where we were from, Dallas, Chicago, and New York, where the three of us were from. And it turned out that Dallas was the best place to open that kind of a shot. So we were going to do that, and we had all that stuff shipped home and then we couldn't get a loan. The three of us went to the banks to try to get a loan in Dallas. And none of us had a job.

[Assistant] So what did you do with all this stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we still have it. A lot of it, a lot of it. We still have it. And we did give some of it away. We donated some of it. The rugs we still have. My kids grew up with them. And the artwork. And so when it was clear that, and we had a few shows. Bill's mother who was a go getter, she organized an art show in Dallas for us at a lovely gallery and that went over very well. But we didn't sell enough stuff you know to, and we really did not know what we were doing. We just had guts. And by that time, I was 31 years old and the two boys were a little younger, so it became clear that we were not going to, uh. So we were home. I still didn't know who I was dating. So we came home and we were staying. It was clear that the show was over in Dallas. The store was not going to go. The other guy was going back to graduate school and I was going back to teach in Milwaukee. And Bill asked me if I could spend the rest of his life with him. And I had to say, well, do you love me? You know, the subject never came up. So he said, he told me once and if he changes his mind, he'll let me know.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Cute.

[User] So that's how. So no, we didn't date, you wouldn't dare do a thing. All the kids who were sleeping together, they're the ones who wanted to come have dinner with us when they got serious, you know. They thought, well.

[Assistant] They have a good alibi.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] That's so funny. So how long after you came back did you get married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's how. So no, we didn't date, you wouldn't dare do a thing. All the kids who were sleeping together, they're the ones who wanted to come have dinner with us when they got serious, you know. They thought, well.

[Assistant] They have a good alibi.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] That's so funny. So how long after you came back did you get married?

[User] Well, we came back. It was Lent, you know, and we were Catholic at the time, and you couldn't get married in the Catholic Church during Lent, which is stupid. But I think they've changed that. But anyway, this happened in, I think, late January when we came home and we got married April 1st, April Fool's Day, was the first Saturday after Lent, so.

[Assistant] That's so cute, so that's your anniversary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] That's so funny. So how long after you came back did you get married?

[User] Well, we came back. It was Lent, you know, and we were Catholic at the time, and you couldn't get married in the Catholic Church during Lent, which is stupid. But I think they've changed that. But anyway, this happened in, I think, late January when we came home and we got married April 1st, April Fool's Day, was the first Saturday after Lent, so.

[Assistant] That's so cute, so that's your anniversary.

[User] That's our anniversary, yes. We can always get out of it. April Fool's.

[Assistant] That's so funny. Well, when you think about, what would you say is probably your biggest thing that you're most, you feel was your biggest accomplishment while you were overseas? And the pluses and minuses.


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[User] Well, I think bringing goodwill to people, I think making people. My biggest accomplishment was making a lot of those people feel good about themselves. You know, I think that was the the biggest thing. And then the overall picture. That's what I did personally. But the overall picture of what we all did together as our group, we brought an enormous amount of education to those people.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was the goal. We trained people. See, these in- house seminars we were doing was to train counterparts to take our place. And I think we did that. I think we did that effectively. So that was, it was a successful project. It was a very successful project. There were a lot of dumb things that happened and we made mistakes. And you know, a lot of those kids were awfully young and do what young people do. But overall, I think, it was worth every cent that the American people put into it. And I think what we've gotten out of it is, you know, you return people to the United States who have a much, much greater understanding of humanity, you know, of what makes the world go round.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think that so. I personally don't think I made any enormous accomplishment, but I did make a lot of people feel good. And they all liked me and I taught them how to do some things for themselves. And it was very good. I made some lifetime friends for myself, but I really think we got as much, if not more, out of that than we gave.

[Assistant] That's a pretty common answer that I hear from people too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was the goal. We trained people. See, these in- house seminars we were doing was to train counterparts to take our place. And I think we did that. I think we did that effectively. So that was, it was a successful project. It was a very successful project. There were a lot of dumb things that happened and we made mistakes. And you know, a lot of those kids were awfully young and do what young people do. But overall, I think, it was worth every cent that the American people put into it. And I think what we've gotten out of it is, you know, you return people to the United States who have a much, much greater understanding of humanity, you know, of what makes the world go round.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think that so. I personally don't think I made any enormous accomplishment, but I did make a lot of people feel good. And they all liked me and I taught them how to do some things for themselves. And it was very good. I made some lifetime friends for myself, but I really think we got as much, if not more, out of that than we gave.

[Assistant] That's a pretty common answer that I hear from people too.

[User] Yes, yes, I'll bet.

[Assistant] So you and Bill, your husband. Tell us about your involvement since Peace Corps, because you have been back to Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that so. I personally don't think I made any enormous accomplishment, but I did make a lot of people feel good. And they all liked me and I taught them how to do some things for themselves. And it was very good. I made some lifetime friends for myself, but I really think we got as much, if not more, out of that than we gave.

[Assistant] That's a pretty common answer that I hear from people too.

[User] Yes, yes, I'll bet.

[Assistant] So you and Bill, your husband. Tell us about your involvement since Peace Corps, because you have been back to Colombia.

[User] We have, but only that once and only recently. You get bogged down in your own life. Now when you come back, immediately everybody wants to hear about it. So I forget what he did, frankly. But I can remember doing slide shows for groups who wanted to hear about it. And I don't know if anybody ever went in the Peace Corps because of my speech, but I had a lot of nice slides and gave a very upbeat and kind of in-depth explanation of what the whole thing was. And of course, you know, when you do this for little kids, they ask all the wrong dumb questions, you know, so you try to gear them toward the important things, you know, and not how much mud did you step in, you know, and all that stuff. But I did a lot of that when I first came back. And I taught school again for many years after I got back, in a couple of cities, and I always integrated it into that. And then, you know, we decorated our house with a lot of the artifacts we had. But I'll tell you, our children had no interest, no interest. But we've always been, you know, very willing to help wherever it's needed and to help foreign people, especially.

[Assistant] Didn't you guys adopt some kids too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, I'll bet.

[Assistant] So you and Bill, your husband. Tell us about your involvement since Peace Corps, because you have been back to Colombia.

[User] We have, but only that once and only recently. You get bogged down in your own life. Now when you come back, immediately everybody wants to hear about it. So I forget what he did, frankly. But I can remember doing slide shows for groups who wanted to hear about it. And I don't know if anybody ever went in the Peace Corps because of my speech, but I had a lot of nice slides and gave a very upbeat and kind of in-depth explanation of what the whole thing was. And of course, you know, when you do this for little kids, they ask all the wrong dumb questions, you know, so you try to gear them toward the important things, you know, and not how much mud did you step in, you know, and all that stuff. But I did a lot of that when I first came back. And I taught school again for many years after I got back, in a couple of cities, and I always integrated it into that. And then, you know, we decorated our house with a lot of the artifacts we had. But I'll tell you, our children had no interest, no interest. But we've always been, you know, very willing to help wherever it's needed and to help foreign people, especially.

[Assistant] Didn't you guys adopt some kids too?

[User] Yeah, we do. Korita's coming over but not until about 3:00. Yeah, we have one adopted daughter. We have a son of our own. And Korita is a native of South Korea, and she now has one child.

[Assistant] And I figured that from the picture on the end.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have, but only that once and only recently. You get bogged down in your own life. Now when you come back, immediately everybody wants to hear about it. So I forget what he did, frankly. But I can remember doing slide shows for groups who wanted to hear about it. And I don't know if anybody ever went in the Peace Corps because of my speech, but I had a lot of nice slides and gave a very upbeat and kind of in-depth explanation of what the whole thing was. And of course, you know, when you do this for little kids, they ask all the wrong dumb questions, you know, so you try to gear them toward the important things, you know, and not how much mud did you step in, you know, and all that stuff. But I did a lot of that when I first came back. And I taught school again for many years after I got back, in a couple of cities, and I always integrated it into that. And then, you know, we decorated our house with a lot of the artifacts we had. But I'll tell you, our children had no interest, no interest. But we've always been, you know, very willing to help wherever it's needed and to help foreign people, especially.

[Assistant] Didn't you guys adopt some kids too?

[User] Yeah, we do. Korita's coming over but not until about 3:00. Yeah, we have one adopted daughter. We have a son of our own. And Korita is a native of South Korea, and she now has one child.

[Assistant] And I figured that from the picture on the end.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, so yes. And Peggy, the girl I mentioned, has remained single, but she adopted a girl from Nepal. Peggy went back into the Peace Corps as a director, and she became the director of, oh shoot, Nepal.

[Assistant] Was she ever from New Jersey?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we do. Korita's coming over but not until about 3:00. Yeah, we have one adopted daughter. We have a son of our own. And Korita is a native of South Korea, and she now has one child.

[Assistant] And I figured that from the picture on the end.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, so yes. And Peggy, the girl I mentioned, has remained single, but she adopted a girl from Nepal. Peggy went back into the Peace Corps as a director, and she became the director of, oh shoot, Nepal.

[Assistant] Was she ever from New Jersey?

[User] She was from Queens, New York. Peggy Smith.

[Assistant] It's funny because my father in law, who is from, um, what did I say, Jersey City. He was dating a woman that went into the Peace Corps, and they used to call her Peggy Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, so yes. And Peggy, the girl I mentioned, has remained single, but she adopted a girl from Nepal. Peggy went back into the Peace Corps as a director, and she became the director of, oh shoot, Nepal.

[Assistant] Was she ever from New Jersey?

[User] She was from Queens, New York. Peggy Smith.

[Assistant] It's funny because my father in law, who is from, um, what did I say, Jersey City. He was dating a woman that went into the Peace Corps, and they used to call her Peggy Peace Corps.

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] Yeah. Cause she left to go into the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] Yeah. Cause she left to go into the Peace Corps.

[User] I don't think it was she. She was a teacher before she went in, and then she got her master's degree in guidance. All of them got master's degrees except me. And Hetzer, who's just who retired a couple of years ago from UNICEF, he got his master's degree and Bill got his. Peggy went into guidance and counseling and then adopted this baby from Nepal and couldn't make enough money teaching to raise her the way she wanted to. She's never married, and so she went into business with DuPont and did better, is now retired from there and is now teaching. And she's 70 years old. She's teaching in junior colleges in Delaware.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So we all keep going. Yeah, we all keep going. Yeah, I worked until I was 70, and Bill was 69. He'll be working well past 70. Of course, I don't know that we all planned to do that.

[Assistant] Well, obviously you've enjoyed what you've done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we all keep going. Yeah, we all keep going. Yeah, I worked until I was 70, and Bill was 69. He'll be working well past 70. Of course, I don't know that we all planned to do that.

[Assistant] Well, obviously you've enjoyed what you've done.

[User] Yes, we have. We have. We have. After I finished teaching, I opened a, I studied interior decorating and I did that for 13 years. I had my own business and I guess I said that. Uh, but Corky used to say, so that those kinds of things show up early. When I did go in the Peace Corps, my very best friend had already had five children. She had five children in seven years, and I'm picking up the pieces of that now. They're all in their fifties and she's gone and they're all screwed up. But one of them's my god child whom I truly worry about, so that should not happen. But at any rate, uh. I used to, they were my kids. I loved these kids. I was the old maid schoolteacher. So and their last name was Kirby. So my one roommate said, anything you bring in this place, anything, Bunny's going to either put flowers in it, hang it on the wall, or send it to the Kirby kids. So don't bring anything in this house.

[Assistant] Was this a friend of yours from the neighborhood or was this a Peace Corps friend?

[User] This is the Peace Corps neighborhood. This was our apartment in Ibagué. Yeah, yeah, she's going to put flowers in it, hang it on the wall, or so. I was decorating a long time.

[Assistant] So she had her kids when she came back from Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we have. We have. We have. After I finished teaching, I opened a, I studied interior decorating and I did that for 13 years. I had my own business and I guess I said that. Uh, but Corky used to say, so that those kinds of things show up early. When I did go in the Peace Corps, my very best friend had already had five children. She had five children in seven years, and I'm picking up the pieces of that now. They're all in their fifties and she's gone and they're all screwed up. But one of them's my god child whom I truly worry about, so that should not happen. But at any rate, uh. I used to, they were my kids. I loved these kids. I was the old maid schoolteacher. So and their last name was Kirby. So my one roommate said, anything you bring in this place, anything, Bunny's going to either put flowers in it, hang it on the wall, or send it to the Kirby kids. So don't bring anything in this house.

[Assistant] Was this a friend of yours from the neighborhood or was this a Peace Corps friend?

[User] This is the Peace Corps neighborhood. This was our apartment in Ibagué. Yeah, yeah, she's going to put flowers in it, hang it on the wall, or so. I was decorating a long time.

[Assistant] So she had her kids when she came back from Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, she had one. The friend that said that had married a man 20 years older than she. So she's a widow now, and she had one child. But the third girl, Peggy, never married anybody and her daughter that she adopted from Nepal, is married and was teaching for a long time, was teaching English literature, Victorian literature, to gifted and talented high school kids, believe it or not. This girl from Nepal is speaking in English, teaching literature.

[Assistant] It truly is an international world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is the Peace Corps neighborhood. This was our apartment in Ibagué. Yeah, yeah, she's going to put flowers in it, hang it on the wall, or so. I was decorating a long time.

[Assistant] So she had her kids when she came back from Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, she had one. The friend that said that had married a man 20 years older than she. So she's a widow now, and she had one child. But the third girl, Peggy, never married anybody and her daughter that she adopted from Nepal, is married and was teaching for a long time, was teaching English literature, Victorian literature, to gifted and talented high school kids, believe it or not. This girl from Nepal is speaking in English, teaching literature.

[Assistant] It truly is an international world.

[User] It's amazing. It's amazing. So she's changed jobs now. But um, they've all been successful as far as I know. We've lost a few. I mean, some of, of course, we're getting old. Some of us have died, but some of them went off the deep end and, you know, won't keep in touch and, you know, are not interested in the reunions and things. There's quite a cadre of them that do and keep in touch.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything from your interview that you feel like you want to add or any other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, she had one. The friend that said that had married a man 20 years older than she. So she's a widow now, and she had one child. But the third girl, Peggy, never married anybody and her daughter that she adopted from Nepal, is married and was teaching for a long time, was teaching English literature, Victorian literature, to gifted and talented high school kids, believe it or not. This girl from Nepal is speaking in English, teaching literature.

[Assistant] It truly is an international world.

[User] It's amazing. It's amazing. So she's changed jobs now. But um, they've all been successful as far as I know. We've lost a few. I mean, some of, of course, we're getting old. Some of us have died, but some of them went off the deep end and, you know, won't keep in touch and, you know, are not interested in the reunions and things. There's quite a cadre of them that do and keep in touch.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything from your interview that you feel like you want to add or any other?

[User] Well, you know, the minute you go I'll think of it. You know, what do we do with, tell me what we do with any kind of pictures or photographs or letters or documents?

[Assistant] This actually, well let me just thank you first and then we can talk about it. But thank you so much for taking the time and giving your interview. I'm sure you know, generations to come will really enjoy this interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's amazing. It's amazing. So she's changed jobs now. But um, they've all been successful as far as I know. We've lost a few. I mean, some of, of course, we're getting old. Some of us have died, but some of them went off the deep end and, you know, won't keep in touch and, you know, are not interested in the reunions and things. There's quite a cadre of them that do and keep in touch.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything from your interview that you feel like you want to add or any other?

[User] Well, you know, the minute you go I'll think of it. You know, what do we do with, tell me what we do with any kind of pictures or photographs or letters or documents?

[Assistant] This actually, well let me just thank you first and then we can talk about it. But thank you so much for taking the time and giving your interview. I'm sure you know, generations to come will really enjoy this interview.

[User] Well, I hope so. I want them to know that we did have a wonderful time and there was nothing, nothing terrible about it.

[Assistant] It's just neat too to see how Peace Corps has evolved over the years and how things were done when you were in service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I hope so. I want them to know that we did have a wonderful time and there was nothing, nothing terrible about it.

[Assistant] It's just neat too to see how Peace Corps has evolved over the years and how things were done when you were in service.

[User] Well, that's right. I'm sure it's very much changed.

[Assistant] It has.

[User] Very much changed. I'd be interested to know what they're doing now.

[Assistant] Although, you know, the three goals of Peace Corps are the same, you know, the basic things are still the same.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much changed. I'd be interested to know what they're doing now.

[Assistant] Although, you know, the three goals of Peace Corps are the same, you know, the basic things are still the same.

[User] You know, what I think has stayed with us innately is flexibility. They always said in training, and I had never heard that word too much, until I was 29 years old. But they always said, you've got to be flexible. Flexibility, flexibility. You've got to be able to change plans in the middle of the stream. You got to be able to go with the flow, you've got to be. And we are the two, the oldest people we know who can really do anything at any time and change plans. Don't bring this, bring that. Don't come at 3:00, come at 4:00. Don't do this, don't do that. Even my daughter is so rigid. They're so rigid. They change their minds. I said, just don't worry, Daddy and I'll do whatever you want. You know, whatever you want, you want a Thanksgiving in Paris, we'll be in Paris. You want to come late, we'll be late. You want, you know, just, you know. So that did stay with us because that was not always a trait of mine. Bill might have been a little more flexible, but not. Although he's a musician and that's precise and he was a television director for that. You know, when you fade to black, it's got to go. Bingo. It's, you know, things are timed in television and in organ playing, they're timed perfectly. But aside from that, he's incredibly flexible. So that's good.

[Assistant] Flexibility.

[User] Yeah. You know, I changed my mind about this. Well, what do you think? You know, it's important and gets you through a lot.

[Assistant] It sure does.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, what I think has stayed with us innately is flexibility. They always said in training, and I had never heard that word too much, until I was 29 years old. But they always said, you've got to be flexible. Flexibility, flexibility. You've got to be able to change plans in the middle of the stream. You got to be able to go with the flow, you've got to be. And we are the two, the oldest people we know who can really do anything at any time and change plans. Don't bring this, bring that. Don't come at 3:00, come at 4:00. Don't do this, don't do that. Even my daughter is so rigid. They're so rigid. They change their minds. I said, just don't worry, Daddy and I'll do whatever you want. You know, whatever you want, you want a Thanksgiving in Paris, we'll be in Paris. You want to come late, we'll be late. You want, you know, just, you know. So that did stay with us because that was not always a trait of mine. Bill might have been a little more flexible, but not. Although he's a musician and that's precise and he was a television director for that. You know, when you fade to black, it's got to go. Bingo. It's, you know, things are timed in television and in organ playing, they're timed perfectly. But aside from that, he's incredibly flexible. So that's good.

[Assistant] Flexibility.

[User] Yeah. You know, I changed my mind about this. Well, what do you think? You know, it's important and gets you through a lot.

[Assistant] It sure does.

[User] So and my daughter hasn't learned that yet.

[Assistant] You know, she has a young baby so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, I changed my mind about this. Well, what do you think? You know, it's important and gets you through a lot.

[Assistant] It sure does.

[User] So and my daughter hasn't learned that yet.

[Assistant] You know, she has a young baby so.

[User] Yes. Oh, she has gotten so relaxed. I can't believe it.

[Assistant] Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. I couldn't be more thrilled.

[Assistant] And me, too. To begin with, maybe you could tell me about how your interest in aviation began.

[User] Well, in a way it's kind of like [STS-93 Shuttle Commander] Eileen [M.] Collins, who's flying today. We used to ride out to the airport on Sunday afternoons and watch the airplanes fly, and that's how she got started. I think she was watching gliders. I wrote away to all the aviation manufacturers, saying, "My father wants to buy an airplane. Please send me all the information." And this was all when I was eight, nine, ten years old. I became interested pretty much that way. In fact, my entire family did, and my mother and father and I all three started at the same time. But a lot of people around the airport would always take this little girl up to fly.\n\n I probably shouldn't tell you, but I soloed when I was twelve, and it wasn't quite legal then, so I couldn't tell anybody. But I figure now, about fifty years later, nobody will bother me about it. In fact, I didn't tell my mother for about a week. My dad said, "You can't tell anybody at all." So I didn't. She was a little surprised.

[Assistant] That must have been quite a flight.

[User] Yes, it was. The thing that amazed me most about it was that when a person gets out of an airplane, especially a little two-seater airplane, the lift is so much faster and the airplane just went up as though there was nobody in it at all. It was amazing. But it was a great experience.

[Assistant] I bet it was. And the first of many great experiences to come for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in a way it's kind of like [STS-93 Shuttle Commander] Eileen [M.] Collins, who's flying today. We used to ride out to the airport on Sunday afternoons and watch the airplanes fly, and that's how she got started. I think she was watching gliders. I wrote away to all the aviation manufacturers, saying, "My father wants to buy an airplane. Please send me all the information." And this was all when I was eight, nine, ten years old. I became interested pretty much that way. In fact, my entire family did, and my mother and father and I all three started at the same time. But a lot of people around the airport would always take this little girl up to fly.\n\n I probably shouldn't tell you, but I soloed when I was twelve, and it wasn't quite legal then, so I couldn't tell anybody. But I figure now, about fifty years later, nobody will bother me about it. In fact, I didn't tell my mother for about a week. My dad said, "You can't tell anybody at all." So I didn't. She was a little surprised.

[Assistant] That must have been quite a flight.

[User] Yes, it was. The thing that amazed me most about it was that when a person gets out of an airplane, especially a little two-seater airplane, the lift is so much faster and the airplane just went up as though there was nobody in it at all. It was amazing. But it was a great experience.

[Assistant] I bet it was. And the first of many great experiences to come for you.

[User] I've been quite lucky, really have, although I don't believe in luck. I'd rather say I was fortunate.

[Assistant] Quite. As you were growing up with airplanes and aviation and continuing on, if you could give a brief synopsis of your early—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. The thing that amazed me most about it was that when a person gets out of an airplane, especially a little two-seater airplane, the lift is so much faster and the airplane just went up as though there was nobody in it at all. It was amazing. But it was a great experience.

[Assistant] I bet it was. And the first of many great experiences to come for you.

[User] I've been quite lucky, really have, although I don't believe in luck. I'd rather say I was fortunate.

[Assistant] Quite. As you were growing up with airplanes and aviation and continuing on, if you could give a brief synopsis of your early—

[User] Well, the Navy really inspired me. I was born in Pensacola and spent my very young years sitting on the back steps of our little house watching the N3N Stearmans fly overhead, where the cadets were learning how to do aerobatics. That didn't quite sink in as far as aerobatics went, but my great love for flying came at that time. Then after we started flying, I went to work when I was very young. We were not a very wealthy family. The only way I could fly was to work toward it.\n\n Then I began working for Eastern Airlines. I fibbed to them about my age and got a job about three weeks before I graduated from high school. Then I would work from midnight to eight so I could fly during the daytime. Became a flight instructor, got a commercial and other ratings and kind of went from there.

[Assistant] When did you first begin doing aerobatics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, by this time we were in Tampa, Florida. My dad had a flight operation there. They were having a local air show and somebody at the meeting said, "Why don't we have that little girl out at the airport do some aerobatics." And my dad was there and he said, "She doesn't know how." And another man who was there, Clem Whittenbeck, who was a great aerobatic pilot in the thirties—I'm talking about back in the forties now—he said, "Oh, I'll teach her how." So in a couple of weeks that was left until show time, he taught me how to do one loop and one slow roll.\n\n The day of the show, I flew so high to be very careful, that I didn't believe anybody could see me at all, but when I landed, a man who owned an airport not very far away came up and said, "We're having a show pretty soon. How much would you charge to come fly in our show?" And that's when I became a professional aerobatic pilot. [Laughter] It was quite by accident.

[Assistant] On the spur of the moment.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] As you were doing all of this and working with your family and with other people out at the airport, did any of your male counterparts ever seem surprised or have any—

[User] Well, pretty much so. I did not date in high school because I was so busy with flying, and that was the most important thing to me. I also worked after school and on weekends. There was just hardly time to date. I learned many years later, on a reunion of our high school class, that most of the guys were a little afraid of me because I started flying and flew solo long before I learned to drive a car, and they weren't even driving cars then. So I guess my interests were just different, just a little different.

[Assistant] Very unique interest at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] As you were doing all of this and working with your family and with other people out at the airport, did any of your male counterparts ever seem surprised or have any—

[User] Well, pretty much so. I did not date in high school because I was so busy with flying, and that was the most important thing to me. I also worked after school and on weekends. There was just hardly time to date. I learned many years later, on a reunion of our high school class, that most of the guys were a little afraid of me because I started flying and flew solo long before I learned to drive a car, and they weren't even driving cars then. So I guess my interests were just different, just a little different.

[Assistant] Very unique interest at the time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As you continued to do the aerobatics, did you ever stop and consider, "Wow! Look at this! Look what I'm doing." Did you ever have any thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As you continued to do the aerobatics, did you ever stop and consider, "Wow! Look at this! Look what I'm doing." Did you ever have any thoughts?

[User] Yes, I had wonderful thoughts. I spent many thousands of hours sitting in this little airplane, flying from one city to another in the United States and in England and Ireland. Sure, you have a lot of time to think. But, yes, I felt extremely fortunate, very fortunate to be able to fly, to do the things I was doing, and mainly the people that I met. I think the aviation community, which has now turned into the space community, they're probably the finest people in the world. And the fans are wonderful, and those who fly and understand flying, it's really a great honor to be associated with them. I loved every minute of it.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Yes, it was. It really was.

[Assistant] Great to be able to say that, to have such an exciting and fun time throughout your whole life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had wonderful thoughts. I spent many thousands of hours sitting in this little airplane, flying from one city to another in the United States and in England and Ireland. Sure, you have a lot of time to think. But, yes, I felt extremely fortunate, very fortunate to be able to fly, to do the things I was doing, and mainly the people that I met. I think the aviation community, which has now turned into the space community, they're probably the finest people in the world. And the fans are wonderful, and those who fly and understand flying, it's really a great honor to be associated with them. I loved every minute of it.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Yes, it was. It really was.

[Assistant] Great to be able to say that, to have such an exciting and fun time throughout your whole life.

[User] Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] Did you ever stop and think about the danger involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It really was.

[Assistant] Great to be able to say that, to have such an exciting and fun time throughout your whole life.

[User] Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] Did you ever stop and think about the danger involved?

[User] I think anytime you undertake anything with a piece of mechanized equipment, as I call it, like a car or an airplane or a boat, or any of these things, you immediately know that there's a danger involved, but if you were concerned about that, you wouldn't be participating in those kinds of things. You consider danger only from the standpoint that it's up to you to know what you're doing, to do your best, to be very careful about it and very thorough about it, and learn everything you can about it. No, I never really worried about it, even though I had quite a few close calls. And in those instances you're so busy, you don't think about it anyway. So I can honestly say I was never really afraid. I've never been what I would call afraid. Now, there were a few times perhaps when you were lost in an airplane, you'd be temporarily confused, but not necessarily afraid.

[Assistant] That's good. Always managed to keep your cool under whatever circumstances might arise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] Did you ever stop and think about the danger involved?

[User] I think anytime you undertake anything with a piece of mechanized equipment, as I call it, like a car or an airplane or a boat, or any of these things, you immediately know that there's a danger involved, but if you were concerned about that, you wouldn't be participating in those kinds of things. You consider danger only from the standpoint that it's up to you to know what you're doing, to do your best, to be very careful about it and very thorough about it, and learn everything you can about it. No, I never really worried about it, even though I had quite a few close calls. And in those instances you're so busy, you don't think about it anyway. So I can honestly say I was never really afraid. I've never been what I would call afraid. Now, there were a few times perhaps when you were lost in an airplane, you'd be temporarily confused, but not necessarily afraid.

[Assistant] That's good. Always managed to keep your cool under whatever circumstances might arise.

[User] Well, you sure try. You really do.

[Assistant] I'm sure that helps in being able, if it is a situation where something's gone wrong, if you're able to stay calm, it makes it a lot easier to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think anytime you undertake anything with a piece of mechanized equipment, as I call it, like a car or an airplane or a boat, or any of these things, you immediately know that there's a danger involved, but if you were concerned about that, you wouldn't be participating in those kinds of things. You consider danger only from the standpoint that it's up to you to know what you're doing, to do your best, to be very careful about it and very thorough about it, and learn everything you can about it. No, I never really worried about it, even though I had quite a few close calls. And in those instances you're so busy, you don't think about it anyway. So I can honestly say I was never really afraid. I've never been what I would call afraid. Now, there were a few times perhaps when you were lost in an airplane, you'd be temporarily confused, but not necessarily afraid.

[Assistant] That's good. Always managed to keep your cool under whatever circumstances might arise.

[User] Well, you sure try. You really do.

[Assistant] I'm sure that helps in being able, if it is a situation where something's gone wrong, if you're able to stay calm, it makes it a lot easier to—

[User] Well, if you really have a dangerous situation, you are so very, very busy determining—not determining, but doing, because you've already determined that long before you have a problem, what you would do in case of. And you're so very busy, you don't think about it. Now, I will admit, after a couple of pretty close calls, several hours later you give it a little thought, but not at the time. You really don't have time.

[Assistant] As you were continuing to fly and even travel around the world, had you ever thought about space travel as a possibility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you sure try. You really do.

[Assistant] I'm sure that helps in being able, if it is a situation where something's gone wrong, if you're able to stay calm, it makes it a lot easier to—

[User] Well, if you really have a dangerous situation, you are so very, very busy determining—not determining, but doing, because you've already determined that long before you have a problem, what you would do in case of. And you're so very busy, you don't think about it. Now, I will admit, after a couple of pretty close calls, several hours later you give it a little thought, but not at the time. You really don't have time.

[Assistant] As you were continuing to fly and even travel around the world, had you ever thought about space travel as a possibility?

[User] Yes, I have to admit that I had, because in 1948 I became extremely interested in UFOs [unidentified flying objects]. There were quite a few people in the aviation community that felt the same way I did about it. A fellow named [Donald] Keyhoe wrote a couple of books, one called Flying Saucers are Real, and Flying Saucers from Outer Space, I believe was his second book, and I read every page. My father thought I was crazy. [Laughter] But, yes, I became interested in space quite a long time ago.

[Assistant] At the time, did you think that space travel was in the immediate future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I knew that it could not be, due to the state of things in the aviation world at that time. You must remember I started out in air show work in a 1929 model Great Lakes airplane, a 2T1A. And then I was fortunate enough to meet a man named Curtis Pitts, who designed airplanes, or was endeavoring to design an airplane at that time. The first time I ever saw his airplane, I fell in love with it, the only one that he had, and I tried to get it to fly and it wasn't available. I just followed it till I finally was at a point where they were able to let me have it.\n\n It was the second Pitts Special airplane ever built. Now there are thousands and thousands around the world. But at that time the first one that he designed and built was almost immediately crashed by a crop duster in Georgia, and the second one, serial number 2, is the one that I was able to obtain. It is now in the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian [Institution]. And I'm thrilled to say that when it was fifty years old, they started complete reconstruction on it, and a wonderful gal there, a curator named Dorothy Cochrane, started reconstruction on it. It's just about finished now, and it looks like a brand-new airplane and it's just beautiful. Very thrilled over it.

[Assistant] Is it being restored far enough that it will be flyable?

[User] Oh, yes. Well, no, they don't usually fly their equipment after they restore it. It goes on display in the National Air and Space Museum. In fact, I think they have a policy that you don't fly their equipment after they rebuild it and display it. It's beautifully done.

[Assistant] That will be wonderful when it is all finished and you're able to see it and have other people be able to come and visit and see it.

[User] Yes, it will.

[Assistant] And share in that part of history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, no, they don't usually fly their equipment after they restore it. It goes on display in the National Air and Space Museum. In fact, I think they have a policy that you don't fly their equipment after they rebuild it and display it. It's beautifully done.

[Assistant] That will be wonderful when it is all finished and you're able to see it and have other people be able to come and visit and see it.

[User] Yes, it will.

[Assistant] And share in that part of history.

[User] Yes. That possibly will happen this fall or next spring, maybe.

[Assistant] We'll look forward to seeing that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it will.

[Assistant] And share in that part of history.

[User] Yes. That possibly will happen this fall or next spring, maybe.

[Assistant] We'll look forward to seeing that.

[User] Good. Thank you.

[Assistant] When did you first learn about efforts that both the United States and Russia were making towards space? Was it when [John F.] Kennedy announced that—I should say manned efforts—when Kennedy announced he wanted to send someone to the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That possibly will happen this fall or next spring, maybe.

[Assistant] We'll look forward to seeing that.

[User] Good. Thank you.

[Assistant] When did you first learn about efforts that both the United States and Russia were making towards space? Was it when [John F.] Kennedy announced that—I should say manned efforts—when Kennedy announced he wanted to send someone to the moon?

[User] Oh, no, no, no. Long before that. One morning I picked up the newspaper and there was a picture of seven people, they had announced the day before that they were selected as astronauts. This was in April of 1959. I thought, "Wow! Wouldn't that be wonderful to be one of these people." But I knew at that time that women were not considered in that category and had not been considered and probably would not be for a long, long time. And, of course, I realized this from my past experiences in flying in air shows.\n\n My first air show, really professional air show, was in Jacksonville, and it was the Navy Blue Angels' first air show. So I flew many years in shows with the Blue Angels and knew many of the teams, and was pretty much the only gal that was working on that level around the world and in this country as a professional aerobatic pilot.\n\n I would like to say, on aerobatic flying, too, most people call it stunt flying. When I started doing it, I felt that it should be called aerobatic flying, which it had been by some. But I considered it an art, and I spent a great deal of time trying to convince people that it was not simply diving to thrill a crowd and to make a lot of noise and put out a lot of smoke; it was an effort that took many, many, many thousands of hours to perfect, and it in its own self was an art, and you had to look at it that way.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I'm sure you must have taken time before you perform a stunt in the air show, you would have to practice it over and over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. You would go up high, to be safe, and you would do maybe the same maneuver 100 times in one practice setting, and you'd practice two or three times a day, not too long at a time, because you get very tired. There were negative Gs involved, G loadings involved. It was a little tiring at times.

[Assistant] You certainly put a lot of work into it to make it—

[User] Yes, you have to do it properly.

[Assistant] It must have been neat to be able to fly in air shows with the Navy team, the Blue Angels.

[User] Oh, yes, they were all a great bunch of guys and marvelous to work with. The nicest part about it, even though I was a gal, there were some skeptics at first, when I first started aerobatic flying, but after a woman comes along in those years, in the forties and early fifties, in this particular area as soon as you proved yourself, so to speak, and showed how proficient you could be with it, then there was just no difference. And it was really marvelous. It was an occupation that I really loved.\n\n I think the thing I enjoyed most, and yet was probably one of the most dangerous, was flying upside down about ten feet above the ground, cutting a ribbon with the prop of the airplane. If nothing else, if nothing else gives you a thrill, that will, I'll tell you. [Laughter] You're pretty busy and it's quite a lot of fun. I understand I was the first woman in the world to ever do it. I worked very hard to perfect it, and I enjoyed it very much.

[Assistant] That's great. That's certainly not anything easy to do. I'm sure it thrilled the audience watching as much as thrilling you flying it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you have to do it properly.

[Assistant] It must have been neat to be able to fly in air shows with the Navy team, the Blue Angels.

[User] Oh, yes, they were all a great bunch of guys and marvelous to work with. The nicest part about it, even though I was a gal, there were some skeptics at first, when I first started aerobatic flying, but after a woman comes along in those years, in the forties and early fifties, in this particular area as soon as you proved yourself, so to speak, and showed how proficient you could be with it, then there was just no difference. And it was really marvelous. It was an occupation that I really loved.\n\n I think the thing I enjoyed most, and yet was probably one of the most dangerous, was flying upside down about ten feet above the ground, cutting a ribbon with the prop of the airplane. If nothing else, if nothing else gives you a thrill, that will, I'll tell you. [Laughter] You're pretty busy and it's quite a lot of fun. I understand I was the first woman in the world to ever do it. I worked very hard to perfect it, and I enjoyed it very much.

[Assistant] That's great. That's certainly not anything easy to do. I'm sure it thrilled the audience watching as much as thrilling you flying it.

[User] Well, I must admit, the first time I tried it—and I haven't told many people this—but the first time I tried it, I misjudged slightly and flew underneath the ribbon, which put me even closer to the ground. I never made that mistake again. [Laughter] But I've made quite a few. All pilots do. Thank goodness they're careful enough not to get in trouble with it.

[Assistant] And then to be able to always learn from it, if you do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, they were all a great bunch of guys and marvelous to work with. The nicest part about it, even though I was a gal, there were some skeptics at first, when I first started aerobatic flying, but after a woman comes along in those years, in the forties and early fifties, in this particular area as soon as you proved yourself, so to speak, and showed how proficient you could be with it, then there was just no difference. And it was really marvelous. It was an occupation that I really loved.\n\n I think the thing I enjoyed most, and yet was probably one of the most dangerous, was flying upside down about ten feet above the ground, cutting a ribbon with the prop of the airplane. If nothing else, if nothing else gives you a thrill, that will, I'll tell you. [Laughter] You're pretty busy and it's quite a lot of fun. I understand I was the first woman in the world to ever do it. I worked very hard to perfect it, and I enjoyed it very much.

[Assistant] That's great. That's certainly not anything easy to do. I'm sure it thrilled the audience watching as much as thrilling you flying it.

[User] Well, I must admit, the first time I tried it—and I haven't told many people this—but the first time I tried it, I misjudged slightly and flew underneath the ribbon, which put me even closer to the ground. I never made that mistake again. [Laughter] But I've made quite a few. All pilots do. Thank goodness they're careful enough not to get in trouble with it.

[Assistant] And then to be able to always learn from it, if you do that.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Great. When you did learn about the Mercury astronauts and you saw them and you thought this was such a neat thing, but you realized women wouldn't work into it very—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite true.

[Assistant] When you were working with them and learning, as you said, the technical details and the difficulties, how did that compare both technologically and the different things that you were doing to what you had done before with airplanes and—

[User] Well, it was a lot easier to understand, I think, because I did a lot of work on my own airplane and I learned very early you look after your own equipment. The same thing, you know, really occurred at that time. Now they have so many technicians to do so much for a launch, that the pilot is not as deeply involved as we were then in knowing every aspect of everything. It was, I would say, a lot easier for me to comprehend than it might have been someone who did not fly and who did not understand aeronautics and the forces that keep airplanes and so forth in the air.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had gotten a call. Who called you? Was this NASA that was sponsoring you to come down and participate in this?

[User] I don't really know how it started. Someone with Look magazine called me and said that NASA was going to test a woman or be the first woman to give tests to, and would I be interested in doing it. I think the call came from the aviation editor of Look, primarily because he had seen me fly a number of times and knew of my experience and my background. Of course, I had a large number of flight hours and quite a lot of experience. I had tried to set a woman's record in a P-51 at one time, a world's record, and the engine had blown up. I had had a lot of interesting things happen in an airplane, and I flew in the Cleveland Air Races. I guess they just figured I—well, then they were looking for test pilots and people who had done dangerous things, and it seemed like I fit the bill, I suppose.

[Assistant] You said you were there for a period of about four or five months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, for instance, Wally Schirra—I believe it was Wally—was friendly. He said that his father, I believe—you know, we're talking about, what, forty, fifty years ago, and I cannot remember everything, especially at this age. [Laughter] But I believe Wally said that his father had been an aerobatic pilot, and we kind of felt a little kinship there just because of that.\n\n I almost had an opportunity to land my little Pitts Special, which only weighed 540 pounds, and the top wing came to about here on me, a very tiny airplane that would fit in a small room, I almost had an opportunity when I went to England—I was selected to represent the United States one year in the London Daily Express Air Pageant at [Gatwick] Airport in London. And knowing all of the Air Force guys and the Navy guys from air shows, I had an opportunity to try to land it on a carrier. Of course, that was unheard of, for a woman to go on a carrier. But I could have landed on a carrier and stopped it without the hook or anything. A very maneuverable airplane. And send it to Europe that way, to London that way. But they also said if they got in the middle of the Atlantic and had orders to go to the Indian Ocean, that's where they'd go, and I couldn't take the chance. So I took it over with me on the Queen Mary, flew in England, and then flew it across the Irish Sea and was a guest of the RAF [Royal Air Force] in Ireland, and flew there. But I was particularly interested in the guys that had flown carriers and done carrier landings, because I never quite made it on a carrier. I would have loved it. It would have been fun.

[Assistant] That certainly would have been interesting.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] Especially if I had been able to stop. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That would have made it very fun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] Especially if I had been able to stop. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That would have made it very fun.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think at the time about the future of space flight? You said you thought it might take a while for women to get into it. But at the time did you think about that just in a few short years they'd be trying to go to the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Especially if I had been able to stop. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That would have made it very fun.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think at the time about the future of space flight? You said you thought it might take a while for women to get into it. But at the time did you think about that just in a few short years they'd be trying to go to the moon?

[User] The moon, I think, came a little quicker than I had expected. I think the reason it came as quickly as it did, thank god, was because these seven guys, the originators, I call them, caught the attention of the entire world and made our country so very, very proud. We had a President who understood this and decided it would be a good idea to go for the moon. And although he didn't have the vaguest idea, I don't think, how he was going to get it done, he committed to getting it done, and that's what got us there a lot quicker.\n\n However, as far as far space travel and the type of thing where we're discussing now and the types of things that are happening now, and the wonderful thing that's happening to Eileen Collins today, it's her day. It's really her day. I feel a little strange talking about my small experiences when she's having such a great one less than twenty-four hours from now. I'm very, very proud of her.\n\n But I think that our President, Kennedy, had a great deal to do with our space effort going forward. Then the budget dropped off for a while, and then it came back on. I think we're doing the best we can for what we've got to work with and the budget that's involved.

[Assistant] And I'm sure that Eileen Collins, being where she is now, as you mentioned, the original seven astronauts were key for getting the space program where it is, but it was women like you that were key to helping Eileen Collins get to where she is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think that probably I was the first one that kind of gave NASA a kick, anyway, although it didn't do much good, and that was in 1959. This is 1999. Our first woman—and I was here for that, when Sally [K.] Ride flew. I came over for that and was interviewed by Jane Pauley on the program. But from '59 to '83 is a long time, and although she wasn't a pilot, it was a great accomplishment. But, to me, this trip that Eileen is taking is, in a way, my dream of all those years ago, forty years ago, and what I really wanted to do, and would have given my life to do at that time. And not just me; there were a lot of other girls who felt the same way. In fact, after the Look cover story came out on me, there was quite a bit of controversy, and even went to Congress, and the girls all tried to get into the space program. Some made some headway, but it just was not to be, and I realized that.\n\n So it was '59 to '99 before we could get a woman pilot, commander, and I'm so very proud of her. And in a way, it's like my dream come true.

[Assistant] It's so fortunate that you can be able to be here to share in it and watch it.

[User] Yes. I can hardly wait. I'm sure I'll probably cry, too. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm sure you won't be the only one.

[User] Gals like to cry sometimes.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. You mentioned that some of the others, another group of women had gone through a different sort of testing than you had. Had you known about that at the time or when they were doing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I can hardly wait. I'm sure I'll probably cry, too. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm sure you won't be the only one.

[User] Gals like to cry sometimes.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. You mentioned that some of the others, another group of women had gone through a different sort of testing than you had. Had you known about that at the time or when they were doing it?

[User] I knew that they were undertaking it, but, frankly, I was not able to follow their activities. It was after I had done my thing, so to speak. During that period of time I was involved with setting some records for Chevrolet. I did the survey trip and the actual trip and managed it, of a truck run down the Baja Peninsula long before it became a tourist attraction like it is today, and at that time we were the first expedition down Baja. And just past Encinitas, there were no roads; it was just dirt roads and rocks and streams and whatnot.\n\n When you're so tremendously involved with that, and I was involved with setting a transcontinental record across the United States, and many other record things, that it was hard to follow their activities. I was interested, but again I didn't feel that it would ever go anywhere. I feel so badly for those girls that it didn't. There were some fine pilots, some marvelous girls in the program. We were all in the same boat, so to speak, without a paddle.

[Assistant] I'm sure you continued to follow events of the space program itself. Did you watch the next shots, Gemini?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gals like to cry sometimes.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. You mentioned that some of the others, another group of women had gone through a different sort of testing than you had. Had you known about that at the time or when they were doing it?

[User] I knew that they were undertaking it, but, frankly, I was not able to follow their activities. It was after I had done my thing, so to speak. During that period of time I was involved with setting some records for Chevrolet. I did the survey trip and the actual trip and managed it, of a truck run down the Baja Peninsula long before it became a tourist attraction like it is today, and at that time we were the first expedition down Baja. And just past Encinitas, there were no roads; it was just dirt roads and rocks and streams and whatnot.\n\n When you're so tremendously involved with that, and I was involved with setting a transcontinental record across the United States, and many other record things, that it was hard to follow their activities. I was interested, but again I didn't feel that it would ever go anywhere. I feel so badly for those girls that it didn't. There were some fine pilots, some marvelous girls in the program. We were all in the same boat, so to speak, without a paddle.

[Assistant] I'm sure you continued to follow events of the space program itself. Did you watch the next shots, Gemini?

[User] I've been over a number of times and watched. I mentioned Cypress Gardens earlier, I believe, which is in the center part of the state, halfway between Tampa and Orlando. Cypress Gardens is on a little lake called Eloise, a good-size lake, and we live lakefront on the west side of the lake, facing east. We sit in our living room and watch every space flight when it's not real cloudy. So I have seen more flights probably than just about anybody around through the number of years because we get to see them. I'm really very honored to be here, and so close, for this one.

[Assistant] It's a pretty special day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew that they were undertaking it, but, frankly, I was not able to follow their activities. It was after I had done my thing, so to speak. During that period of time I was involved with setting some records for Chevrolet. I did the survey trip and the actual trip and managed it, of a truck run down the Baja Peninsula long before it became a tourist attraction like it is today, and at that time we were the first expedition down Baja. And just past Encinitas, there were no roads; it was just dirt roads and rocks and streams and whatnot.\n\n When you're so tremendously involved with that, and I was involved with setting a transcontinental record across the United States, and many other record things, that it was hard to follow their activities. I was interested, but again I didn't feel that it would ever go anywhere. I feel so badly for those girls that it didn't. There were some fine pilots, some marvelous girls in the program. We were all in the same boat, so to speak, without a paddle.

[Assistant] I'm sure you continued to follow events of the space program itself. Did you watch the next shots, Gemini?

[User] I've been over a number of times and watched. I mentioned Cypress Gardens earlier, I believe, which is in the center part of the state, halfway between Tampa and Orlando. Cypress Gardens is on a little lake called Eloise, a good-size lake, and we live lakefront on the west side of the lake, facing east. We sit in our living room and watch every space flight when it's not real cloudy. So I have seen more flights probably than just about anybody around through the number of years because we get to see them. I'm really very honored to be here, and so close, for this one.

[Assistant] It's a pretty special day.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] After you had done your work with the Mercury seven astronauts—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've been over a number of times and watched. I mentioned Cypress Gardens earlier, I believe, which is in the center part of the state, halfway between Tampa and Orlando. Cypress Gardens is on a little lake called Eloise, a good-size lake, and we live lakefront on the west side of the lake, facing east. We sit in our living room and watch every space flight when it's not real cloudy. So I have seen more flights probably than just about anybody around through the number of years because we get to see them. I'm really very honored to be here, and so close, for this one.

[Assistant] It's a pretty special day.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] After you had done your work with the Mercury seven astronauts—

[User] Can we halt a minute?

[Assistant] Absolutely. [Tape recorder turned off]\n\n After you had worked with the Mercury 7 astronauts and with NASA, you said you went back, had been with Chevrolet, if I'm correct, and went back and presented to them what you had done, and were able to share with them. What did you then go on and do in your career? What were some of the other—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, again, I tried to drive the Blue Flame when it went for the world's record, well over 600, and I flew the Pitts Special, which, incidentally, I named the Little Stinker. Had a skunk on the side. I flew it over to Milwaukee and tried to talk with the owners and the people. There was just no way they were going to allow a woman to drive that car, and it was a gorgeous automobile. Looked like a bullet. It did set the record, world's record.

[Assistant] So many opportunities you've had. So many interesting times. Is there a point, looking back over your whole career, that you would say was the most challenging time for you?

[User] No, there isn't, because you can't mix boats and airplanes and cars all together. I might say affairs of the heart. I was not thirty-nine before I got married. I was thirty-nine and a half. I think that's the most exciting thing that ever happened to me. [Laughter] I was very, very nervous, and was fortunate enough to marry a fantastic man. He was with the Ford agency at one time, and I was with Chevrolet agency, and we were bitter rivals and didn't particularly like each other very much, either, but we smoothed that out. It's the finest thing that ever happened to me, really, by far the most rewarding and the finest.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] A marvelous, marvelous man. We will be married thirty-four years come New Year's Eve, and we decided we wanted to start our year out together, and that's why New Year's Eve.

[Assistant] That's great. And this New Year's Eve will be the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there isn't, because you can't mix boats and airplanes and cars all together. I might say affairs of the heart. I was not thirty-nine before I got married. I was thirty-nine and a half. I think that's the most exciting thing that ever happened to me. [Laughter] I was very, very nervous, and was fortunate enough to marry a fantastic man. He was with the Ford agency at one time, and I was with Chevrolet agency, and we were bitter rivals and didn't particularly like each other very much, either, but we smoothed that out. It's the finest thing that ever happened to me, really, by far the most rewarding and the finest.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] A marvelous, marvelous man. We will be married thirty-four years come New Year's Eve, and we decided we wanted to start our year out together, and that's why New Year's Eve.

[Assistant] That's great. And this New Year's Eve will be the—

[User] Thirty-fourth. I hope we make it. He's extremely ill right now. But we're counting the days until New Year's Eve and the millennium. That's our next goal, and that's a challenge now.

[Assistant] Absolutely. All of our thoughts and prayers will be with you that you are able to celebrate that together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A marvelous, marvelous man. We will be married thirty-four years come New Year's Eve, and we decided we wanted to start our year out together, and that's why New Year's Eve.

[Assistant] That's great. And this New Year's Eve will be the—

[User] Thirty-fourth. I hope we make it. He's extremely ill right now. But we're counting the days until New Year's Eve and the millennium. That's our next goal, and that's a challenge now.

[Assistant] Absolutely. All of our thoughts and prayers will be with you that you are able to celebrate that together.

[User] Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Assistant] I think here we'll go ahead and pause for a moment. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n What is this photograph here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thirty-fourth. I hope we make it. He's extremely ill right now. But we're counting the days until New Year's Eve and the millennium. That's our next goal, and that's a challenge now.

[Assistant] Absolutely. All of our thoughts and prayers will be with you that you are able to celebrate that together.

[User] Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Assistant] I think here we'll go ahead and pause for a moment. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n What is this photograph here?

[User] This was a photograph that was a taken—this is the sixth, I think, of the seven original astronauts, and from left to right is Deke [Donald K.] Slayton, Wally Schirra, Scott Carpenter, John Glenn, Gus Grissom, and Alan Shepard. I don't know who's missing; I'd have to think. Maybe Gordo—[L.] Gordon Cooper [Jr.] is missing. This was the first day I visited their ready room at Langley in Virginia, and we were matching to see who was going to buy the coffee.\n\n This is my pride and joy. This is Little Stinker, my Pitts Special that is now in the National Air and Space Museum, number N22E. I always called it "2-2 Easy." A little tiny airplane, only weighs 544 pounds, and a great joy to fly. As you were flying along cross country, you'd look out there at that little short wing and think, "What in the world is keeping me in the air?" Marvelous little airplane.\n\n This gives you an idea of how very small Little Stinker was. With Little Stinker is Little Tinker, a chihuahua, which was my mascot and flew around the airplane with me. We had a great time together.

[Assistant] Would Little Tinker hang head out the window, ears flapping in the wind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Assistant] I think here we'll go ahead and pause for a moment. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n What is this photograph here?

[User] This was a photograph that was a taken—this is the sixth, I think, of the seven original astronauts, and from left to right is Deke [Donald K.] Slayton, Wally Schirra, Scott Carpenter, John Glenn, Gus Grissom, and Alan Shepard. I don't know who's missing; I'd have to think. Maybe Gordo—[L.] Gordon Cooper [Jr.] is missing. This was the first day I visited their ready room at Langley in Virginia, and we were matching to see who was going to buy the coffee.\n\n This is my pride and joy. This is Little Stinker, my Pitts Special that is now in the National Air and Space Museum, number N22E. I always called it "2-2 Easy." A little tiny airplane, only weighs 544 pounds, and a great joy to fly. As you were flying along cross country, you'd look out there at that little short wing and think, "What in the world is keeping me in the air?" Marvelous little airplane.\n\n This gives you an idea of how very small Little Stinker was. With Little Stinker is Little Tinker, a chihuahua, which was my mascot and flew around the airplane with me. We had a great time together.

[Assistant] Would Little Tinker hang head out the window, ears flapping in the wind?

[User] Oh, no, no. He'd sit in my lap most of the time or on the back of my shoulder, and had its own little parachute and it had its own favorite airplane. It loved Tallahassee in Florida, because every time I would land there, there was a fire plug close by. [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] That's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no. He'd sit in my lap most of the time or on the back of my shoulder, and had its own little parachute and it had its own favorite airplane. It loved Tallahassee in Florida, because every time I would land there, there was a fire plug close by. [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] That's great.

[User] This was the boat-jumping that I had mentioned. You go up a ramp. Actually, it's a water-ski ramp. Then you jump. We were jumping over this 1955 Dodge, it looks like, at Cypress Gardens in Florida. On that particular jump I had a very hard landing. I knew at this point it was going to be extremely hard, and I did have a little medical problem after that for a while. I limped for about a year, in fact.

[Assistant] Oh, my. You certainly look like you're enjoying it at the time.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] And this is a picture of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was the boat-jumping that I had mentioned. You go up a ramp. Actually, it's a water-ski ramp. Then you jump. We were jumping over this 1955 Dodge, it looks like, at Cypress Gardens in Florida. On that particular jump I had a very hard landing. I knew at this point it was going to be extremely hard, and I did have a little medical problem after that for a while. I limped for about a year, in fact.

[Assistant] Oh, my. You certainly look like you're enjoying it at the time.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] And this is a picture of you.

[User] This was entering the centrifuge for the wild ride at the U.S. [Naval] Acceleration Laboratory in Johnsville, Pennsylvania. That's when one of the technicians made the remark about the advertising campaign. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That must have been quite a ride. Was it similar to any of the experiences you'd had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] And this is a picture of you.

[User] This was entering the centrifuge for the wild ride at the U.S. [Naval] Acceleration Laboratory in Johnsville, Pennsylvania. That's when one of the technicians made the remark about the advertising campaign. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That must have been quite a ride. Was it similar to any of the experiences you'd had?

[User] It was very similar to the G loadings I had felt in the airplane.\n\n This is an actual shot of me just before they closed the door or just after they closed the door to the centrifuge. It's an interesting piece of equipment. It's on a 55-foot arm and it goes round and round and round very, very fast and creates G loadings on the body. In other words, if your body weighs 100, they can make it weigh 200, 300, 400. Each G loading carries your body weight up. I was used to G loadings because I'd had quite a number of them in Little Stinker.\n\n This is a shot that was taken actually in front of a capsule that's exactly like the one that Alan Shepard flew in. I had been in the space suit for quite a long time at that point, and I must say they're not very comfortable. But it was such a thrill just to be able to get into one of them, and think, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if I could just use it, if I could just get into space with it?" But unfortunately that was not to be.

[Assistant] Was this one of the training suits that they used?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was entering the centrifuge for the wild ride at the U.S. [Naval] Acceleration Laboratory in Johnsville, Pennsylvania. That's when one of the technicians made the remark about the advertising campaign. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That must have been quite a ride. Was it similar to any of the experiences you'd had?

[User] It was very similar to the G loadings I had felt in the airplane.\n\n This is an actual shot of me just before they closed the door or just after they closed the door to the centrifuge. It's an interesting piece of equipment. It's on a 55-foot arm and it goes round and round and round very, very fast and creates G loadings on the body. In other words, if your body weighs 100, they can make it weigh 200, 300, 400. Each G loading carries your body weight up. I was used to G loadings because I'd had quite a number of them in Little Stinker.\n\n This is a shot that was taken actually in front of a capsule that's exactly like the one that Alan Shepard flew in. I had been in the space suit for quite a long time at that point, and I must say they're not very comfortable. But it was such a thrill just to be able to get into one of them, and think, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if I could just use it, if I could just get into space with it?" But unfortunately that was not to be.

[Assistant] Was this one of the training suits that they used?

[User] This was taken out at McDonnell-Douglas [Corporation]. This was one of the suits that they had on hand there. McDonnell-Douglas did the capsules.

[Assistant] I have to ask. Alan Shepard, when he was on his first mission, didn't have a method for relieving himself very well. You said you were in the suit for a long time. Did that become a problem for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very similar to the G loadings I had felt in the airplane.\n\n This is an actual shot of me just before they closed the door or just after they closed the door to the centrifuge. It's an interesting piece of equipment. It's on a 55-foot arm and it goes round and round and round very, very fast and creates G loadings on the body. In other words, if your body weighs 100, they can make it weigh 200, 300, 400. Each G loading carries your body weight up. I was used to G loadings because I'd had quite a number of them in Little Stinker.\n\n This is a shot that was taken actually in front of a capsule that's exactly like the one that Alan Shepard flew in. I had been in the space suit for quite a long time at that point, and I must say they're not very comfortable. But it was such a thrill just to be able to get into one of them, and think, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if I could just use it, if I could just get into space with it?" But unfortunately that was not to be.

[Assistant] Was this one of the training suits that they used?

[User] This was taken out at McDonnell-Douglas [Corporation]. This was one of the suits that they had on hand there. McDonnell-Douglas did the capsules.

[Assistant] I have to ask. Alan Shepard, when he was on his first mission, didn't have a method for relieving himself very well. You said you were in the suit for a long time. Did that become a problem for you?

[User] Well, it's a very personal subject. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was taken out at McDonnell-Douglas [Corporation]. This was one of the suits that they had on hand there. McDonnell-Douglas did the capsules.

[Assistant] I have to ask. Alan Shepard, when he was on his first mission, didn't have a method for relieving himself very well. You said you were in the suit for a long time. Did that become a problem for you?

[User] Well, it's a very personal subject. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

[User] I'll tell you the truth. I used to fly in Little Stinker from daylight till dark if I had to get to—you know, you weren't flying very fast, 110 miles an hour and with a head wind probably of 50 miles an hour. But anyway, I would fly from daylight till dark, and I became quite accustomed to controlling not having to make pit stops, shall we say. [Laughter] So that was not a problem for me here in this shot.

[Assistant] Oh, good. [Interruption]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What are we doing in this shot?

[User] This is just simple treadmill tests that they gave you at the Brooks Aerospace Medicine School. It, of course, made it go faster and faster and steeper and steeper, to see how long you could undergo the physical activity.

[Assistant] I have to say, in all of these you're just grinning and looking like you're having a blast.

[User] I was. I just had a great time. Really great time.\n\n This was kind of interesting. They were trying to show me and test me under water because of the buoyancy advantage you have. Your body weighs a lot less, so to speak, under water, like 90 percent less. This is Scott Carpenter and Alan Shepard helping me adjust the mask. The interesting thing about it is, I don't swim. I never have. I'm not particularly afraid of water, but I don't swim. But I didn't dare tell them. [Laughter] We all went under water, and they were very nice to hang around and help me when I wanted a little help. I don't think they ever knew I couldn't swim. But it wasn't the most exciting thing that I did, I'm afraid.

[Assistant] That's interesting. I was going to ask you, with everything else you've done, from cars to planes, to boats, to skydiving, I was about to ask if you've done much scuba diving.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is just simple treadmill tests that they gave you at the Brooks Aerospace Medicine School. It, of course, made it go faster and faster and steeper and steeper, to see how long you could undergo the physical activity.

[Assistant] I have to say, in all of these you're just grinning and looking like you're having a blast.

[User] I was. I just had a great time. Really great time.\n\n This was kind of interesting. They were trying to show me and test me under water because of the buoyancy advantage you have. Your body weighs a lot less, so to speak, under water, like 90 percent less. This is Scott Carpenter and Alan Shepard helping me adjust the mask. The interesting thing about it is, I don't swim. I never have. I'm not particularly afraid of water, but I don't swim. But I didn't dare tell them. [Laughter] We all went under water, and they were very nice to hang around and help me when I wanted a little help. I don't think they ever knew I couldn't swim. But it wasn't the most exciting thing that I did, I'm afraid.

[Assistant] That's interesting. I was going to ask you, with everything else you've done, from cars to planes, to boats, to skydiving, I was about to ask if you've done much scuba diving.

[User] I've done a little, but I didn't particularly like it. I skied in the ski shows at Cyprus Gardens a lot, but when I'd fall, I'd just come up and hang on to the ski until somebody came to get me. So I never really learned how to swim.

[Assistant] Do all these boating adventures and boat jumping and water skiing—didn't need to swim?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. I just had a great time. Really great time.\n\n This was kind of interesting. They were trying to show me and test me under water because of the buoyancy advantage you have. Your body weighs a lot less, so to speak, under water, like 90 percent less. This is Scott Carpenter and Alan Shepard helping me adjust the mask. The interesting thing about it is, I don't swim. I never have. I'm not particularly afraid of water, but I don't swim. But I didn't dare tell them. [Laughter] We all went under water, and they were very nice to hang around and help me when I wanted a little help. I don't think they ever knew I couldn't swim. But it wasn't the most exciting thing that I did, I'm afraid.

[Assistant] That's interesting. I was going to ask you, with everything else you've done, from cars to planes, to boats, to skydiving, I was about to ask if you've done much scuba diving.

[User] I've done a little, but I didn't particularly like it. I skied in the ski shows at Cyprus Gardens a lot, but when I'd fall, I'd just come up and hang on to the ski until somebody came to get me. So I never really learned how to swim.

[Assistant] Do all these boating adventures and boat jumping and water skiing—didn't need to swim?

[User] Really, I really didn't. I'm not afraid of water; I just didn't like it in my ears and eyes. [Laughter]\n\n This is the control room of the centrifuge that I mentioned to you. While you're going around and around in this thing on the [50]-foot arm, they actually see you on a TV screen in the control room, and those are the technicians, of course, watching to see if I black out or, you know, what happens. They were very nice to me.

[Assistant] And you got to watch this video yourself afterwards, of you going through the ride?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've done a little, but I didn't particularly like it. I skied in the ski shows at Cyprus Gardens a lot, but when I'd fall, I'd just come up and hang on to the ski until somebody came to get me. So I never really learned how to swim.

[Assistant] Do all these boating adventures and boat jumping and water skiing—didn't need to swim?

[User] Really, I really didn't. I'm not afraid of water; I just didn't like it in my ears and eyes. [Laughter]\n\n This is the control room of the centrifuge that I mentioned to you. While you're going around and around in this thing on the [50]-foot arm, they actually see you on a TV screen in the control room, and those are the technicians, of course, watching to see if I black out or, you know, what happens. They were very nice to me.

[Assistant] And you got to watch this video yourself afterwards, of you going through the ride?

[User] Yes. Right.\n\n This was in a water test with Scotty and Alan Shepard. They were very helpful to me during the water test, which I was very pleased didn't last too long. [Laughter]\n\n This was long before America ever flew anyone into space, before Shepard's flight, at the Cape. Wally Schirra and Deke Slayton, the late Deke Slayton, they were showing me what a capsule looks like when it comes back, or when it lands and is recovered. In order to find out what sort of damage they could expect on an actual flight, recovering these test flights helped them a great deal technically.

[Assistant] I have to ask. You worked so closely with the seven during this time frame that you were down there and did get to see a couple of launches. When John Glenn went back up just last year, did you get a chance to see his launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is in Miami at the All-American Air Maneuvers. Mr. Piper, Bill Piper, who built the famous Piper Cub, this was in the late forties, and he asked me if I would be interested in flying their experimental Super Cub to see if I could set a new altitude record. I said, "Sure, that would be fun." And so they loaded it up one morning with the barograph, all the same day, of course, and I climbed in and went up to maybe 29,000 feet or something like that. I can't remember all these figures. It was about 53 degrees below outside. Oh, I haven't mentioned, I usually fly bare-footed, and my feet darn near froze to death. [Laughter] But it was a nice little airplane. After that, they came out with the regular Super Cub.

[Assistant] Tell me, why do you usually fly bare-footed?

[User] I guess because I'm a Florida cracker. [Laughter]\n\n After all the tests were finished, in February, February 2nd, to be exact, Look magazine ran a cover story showing all of the tests—not all, but some of the tests that I had taken. This kind of caused a stir among women pilots in the country who felt that I was going to get there and they weren't, which was not the case at all, and I did not mean it to be that way.

[Assistant] A lot of these pictures that you've shared with us were taken by Look magazine.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It's under their copyright.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It's under their copyright.

[User] 9:35 a.m. That one nobody could figure out that was a fantastic flight.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] And I remember the time because a disk, or a record came out.\n\n In the late forties, I endeavored to set a world land speed record for women. I was trying to break Jacqueline Cochran's record, and actually had the record broken. You fly four passes not too high above the ground. But there were two rules: you couldn't go over a certain altitude and you had to land where you took off. Just as I was going by the pylon on the last pass and I had the record set at 426 miles an hour, I think it was, the engine blew up and there was a little fire. I pulled up to over 3,000 feet to bail out. The tower told me to bail out. I reached for the handle and I was over the world, and I thought, "Nuh-uh. I don't think so." The handle to eject. So I did not eject, and landed without an engine at McDill Air Force Base.\n\n At that time the Air Force was instructing all of their P-51 guys, if you have an engine failure, get out. But I was fortunate enough to get it back down, thank goodness, because it wasn't my airplane. [Laughter] It belonged to a wonderful gentleman named Woody Edmondson, who was a 1948 International Aerobatic champion, and he was kind enough to let me use his airplane.

[Assistant] I'm sure he was glad to see—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 9:35 a.m. That one nobody could figure out that was a fantastic flight.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] And I remember the time because a disk, or a record came out.\n\n In the late forties, I endeavored to set a world land speed record for women. I was trying to break Jacqueline Cochran's record, and actually had the record broken. You fly four passes not too high above the ground. But there were two rules: you couldn't go over a certain altitude and you had to land where you took off. Just as I was going by the pylon on the last pass and I had the record set at 426 miles an hour, I think it was, the engine blew up and there was a little fire. I pulled up to over 3,000 feet to bail out. The tower told me to bail out. I reached for the handle and I was over the world, and I thought, "Nuh-uh. I don't think so." The handle to eject. So I did not eject, and landed without an engine at McDill Air Force Base.\n\n At that time the Air Force was instructing all of their P-51 guys, if you have an engine failure, get out. But I was fortunate enough to get it back down, thank goodness, because it wasn't my airplane. [Laughter] It belonged to a wonderful gentleman named Woody Edmondson, who was a 1948 International Aerobatic champion, and he was kind enough to let me use his airplane.

[Assistant] I'm sure he was glad to see—

[User] Oh, he was scared to death. [Laughter] Everyone who lets a girl use their mechanized equipment just lives in great fear until you return it all in one piece.

[Assistant] But so many of them were willing to be able to let you do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's always a pleasure to be with you ladies.

[Assistant] As I said, I'd like to follow up on some things we talked about last time, and I'd like to start with a couple of management questions. When you first came to NASA, some people said that the centers had a "state's rights" attitude regarding their relationship with headquarters. How would you describe the centers' attitudes when you got there?

[User] The warlords dominating the organization. [Laughter] They were independent fiefdoms.

[Assistant] How did that cause problems with what needed to get done?

[User] It was hard to get [any] two fiefs to talk to each other, at least in a meaningful way. It's a natural thing. Each was doing what it thought was right. And from their point of view, it probably was right, but from the standpoint of getting the program done, they had to work as a team. And more than that, we had to have much better communications across the centers and the contractors than we had had up to that point in time. The success or failure of a program like Apollo depends upon all of the people doing the actual work understanding what it is that they are supposed to do and how that contributes to the overall program's success, the overall system.\n\n In particular, in the case of Apollo, it was essential that that communication be on a very rapid level, [and] also on various levels. You couldn't do it just on the design; it had to be on how it was going to operate and how you were going to handle safety, and the safety had to be built in across the board, as well as all of the other disciplines that are required for a successful program.\n\n One of the challenges was to make each of the program offices, both in the centers and at the contractor, realize that all of those disciplines were essential and that they had to be addressed early on, if we were, in fact, going to carry out a successful program.

[Assistant] And you were able to make those changes so that that communication was possible. Some people said that you had a lot of management freedom when you were in your position at NASA. Do you agree with that?