[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, this was really a good crew. We had a lot of fun together. The people that had flown in space before, Mike [Michael J.] Bloomfield, Ellen Ochoa, and Steve [Steven L.] Smith, were all exceptionally talented folks. They knew their business inside out and did a great job at it. We had three rookies, Steve [Steven N.] Frick, the pilot, Lee [M. E.] Morin, and Rex [J.] Walheim, who are spacewalking buddies with Steve Smith and myself, and, again, they just added a lot to the flight and a lot of exceptional talents. They didn’t operate as rookies.\n\n So we had a very challenging flight, being the first flight of the last phase of the assembly of the Station and the first of the truss elements to go up, big truss elements, if you exclude Z-1. It was, again, another kind of a step up in what we were doing, and we felt, again, some of the pressure doing four spacewalks on this flight and having two teams of two each going outside.\n\n It was kind of neat that Lee and I got teamed together, being the two gray-haired spacewalking grandfathers. That was pretty cool. I’m glad they called us the Silver Team instead of the Gray Team. That was nice of them. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Do you remember who came up with that title?

[User] I think Steve Smith did. Yes, I think he called us the Silver Team.

[Assistant] And you liked that title?

[User] It was fun, yes. Anytime that you have a handle like that or some unique thing, then the press tends to capture that and run with it, so, yes, it was kind of fun. Of course, I got a lot of ribbing from my friends back home. “Oh, the Silver Team.” I said I’d rather be doing that than working for a living, so, yes.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about going up to the Station. You had been there for the first assembly mission and now you’re going back. What was it like coming up to the Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is, and I think everybody in the program, especially this time, feels some degree of responsibility, that couldn’t we have thought of something, been smarter, worked harder, been more diligent, to somehow preclude it from happening. So I think everybody feels some level of responsibility this time around, and to lose good friends is very difficult to do, and especially when you might have some part to play in it.\n\n This crew, the Columbia crew, was really a neat crew. They were really nice people. I was pretty close to several of them, as I was for some of the Challenger guys. I had flown to the Cape with them on an STA, or business jet, going down for launch. Dave [David M.] Brown and Mike [Michael P.] Anderson had worked for me, and I had helped get them assigned to this flight, and they were thrilled to be assigned. So there were a lot of close relationships there. I was with the crew when they were suiting up for launch, rode out to the LCC [Launch Control Center], where I got off and they went on out to the pad, and then to be waiting for them at the end of the runway.

[Assistant] A year has passed since the Columbia accident. Did you have a chance to go back up to Lufkin for the February 1st memorials or to Nacogdoches [Texas]?

[User] I went up Hemphill [Texas] in, I think it was December to do a presentation up there at the VFW [Veterans of Foreign Wars] hall. I had personal family friends down here over that weekend, and I had been requested to do the one in Lufkin, but I had to decline it because I had friends here. That was the only weekend they were here, so I could hardly leave to go do that.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to see the Super Bowl?

[User] Yes, I did watch the Super Bowl.

[Assistant] What did you think of the NASA—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went up Hemphill [Texas] in, I think it was December to do a presentation up there at the VFW [Veterans of Foreign Wars] hall. I had personal family friends down here over that weekend, and I had been requested to do the one in Lufkin, but I had to decline it because I had friends here. That was the only weekend they were here, so I could hardly leave to go do that.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to see the Super Bowl?

[User] Yes, I did watch the Super Bowl.

[Assistant] What did you think of the NASA—

[User] I thought they did a very nice job on that, as opposed to some other things.

[Assistant] We won’t talk about that. [Laughter]\n\n Once the recovery wrapped up, what have your duties been since that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s for other people to judge, I think. I think one of the things I’ve tried to concentrate on is trying to talk to a lot of schoolkids. A good share of my PR, the vast majority of my PR, probably, has been talking to kids and trying to get kids to understand that they live once and they get to go through life once and they ought to not waste the blessings that God gave them and the skills and talents that they’ve got. And I really encourage kids to try to understand what those talents and skills are and decide how they’re going to use them through their life and to set some goals and study hard and to work hard to achieve those goals. And if they want to be an astronaut, that’s great. If they want to be a doctor, that’s great. If they want to be a teacher, that’s super. Whatever they want to do, set those goals for themselves. They ought to be realistic and in tune with their talents and likes and dislikes and then go for it, because this country needs smart, productive people to maintain the type of living that we’ve got for ourselves and to keep our country secure and safe.

[Assistant] That’s an important message.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you mind if I asked Rebecca and Sandra if they have any questions for you?

[User] No.

[Assistant] I have one. What type of advice or suggestions do you give the rookie EVAers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you mind if I asked Rebecca and Sandra if they have any questions for you?

[User] No.

[Assistant] I have one. What type of advice or suggestions do you give the rookie EVAers?

[User] To rookie EVAers. Every rookie EVA guy that I see down at the Cape or wherever, before they go fly, I tell them to take some time to enjoy the view. You literally can be so engrossed in what you’re doing, that if you’re not careful, you can complete the entire EVA successfully and get back in the airlock and close the hatch and never really have a chance to look around and enjoy what you’re doing or where you’re at. So I tell them to just take a snapshot, take a mental, visual snapshot every once in a while of what they’re seeing and what they’re doing, and just kind of engrain that as deeply as they can in their brain. It’s kind of like a family vacation. If you’re the person that’s driving and you don’t get a chance to look around a whole lot, you get back in the driveway and you go, “Gee, we put a lot of miles on. What did we see?”\n\n From a personal side, that’s what I really encourage them to do, just enjoy the moment a little bit. Beyond that, just follow the procedures, do things by the numbers, and just take your time, get it right.

[Assistant] Since you’ve mentioned you talked to children so much, how is it that you’re able to share with them the emotions of what you experience of being outside in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re quite welcome. Glad to do it.

[Assistant] We’re glad to have you. We talked previously about some of the specifics of your career. I wanted to go back and talk about some of your general thoughts and impressions while you were working with NASA, beginning back with when you first became involved with the Space Task Group. Previously you’d been working with a lot of experimental and high-performance aircraft. What were your general thoughts about a space program at that time when you came to work with it?

[User] I’d been working with all of the X- research airplanes, X-1, -2, -3, -4, -5, Douglas Sky Rocket, X-15. We didn’t think an awful lot about it until we got serious about it. Then really, we were the only people within NASA to have had hands-on experience with hypersonic speed, and I thought and hoped that I could contribute something to the program by applying my experience. So I moved from Edwards [Air Force Base, California] back to Langley Field [Virginia] with the Space Task Group, working with Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth.

[Assistant] I think you certainly did apply a lot of that knowledge and experience that you had gained to help out with the program. You moved into a lot of interesting jobs and tasks.

[User] I sure did. I wouldn’t have it any different. There was ups and downs all the time, but through Apollo we always had a goal that could be completed. Of course, the Shuttle is a continuing program, and we hope the Space Station will be continuing. We hope it’ll be started soon.

[Assistant] Hopefully, we see that make some progress tonight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d been working with all of the X- research airplanes, X-1, -2, -3, -4, -5, Douglas Sky Rocket, X-15. We didn’t think an awful lot about it until we got serious about it. Then really, we were the only people within NASA to have had hands-on experience with hypersonic speed, and I thought and hoped that I could contribute something to the program by applying my experience. So I moved from Edwards [Air Force Base, California] back to Langley Field [Virginia] with the Space Task Group, working with Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth.

[Assistant] I think you certainly did apply a lot of that knowledge and experience that you had gained to help out with the program. You moved into a lot of interesting jobs and tasks.

[User] I sure did. I wouldn’t have it any different. There was ups and downs all the time, but through Apollo we always had a goal that could be completed. Of course, the Shuttle is a continuing program, and we hope the Space Station will be continuing. We hope it’ll be started soon.

[Assistant] Hopefully, we see that make some progress tonight.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As you were starting on the program, the ultimate goal, as you said, after Apollo, was to get to the Moon, but there was somewhat of a spirit of competition as well with the Russians [Soviets] who now we’ve gotten involved with in the Space Station. But at the time that you were working on these early programs, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, were you very aware of what the Russians were doing and was there much pressure, or was it more just working toward the goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure did. I wouldn’t have it any different. There was ups and downs all the time, but through Apollo we always had a goal that could be completed. Of course, the Shuttle is a continuing program, and we hope the Space Station will be continuing. We hope it’ll be started soon.

[Assistant] Hopefully, we see that make some progress tonight.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As you were starting on the program, the ultimate goal, as you said, after Apollo, was to get to the Moon, but there was somewhat of a spirit of competition as well with the Russians [Soviets] who now we’ve gotten involved with in the Space Station. But at the time that you were working on these early programs, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, were you very aware of what the Russians were doing and was there much pressure, or was it more just working toward the goal?

[User] Well, there was always pressure to land on the Moon, but we never had any pressure to sacrifice safety for the schedule. Of course, it was a technical race, not a political race then. I think now everything’s political. It’s not up to me such to say whether that’s good or bad.

[Assistant] Certainly it’s very different than it used to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As you were starting on the program, the ultimate goal, as you said, after Apollo, was to get to the Moon, but there was somewhat of a spirit of competition as well with the Russians [Soviets] who now we’ve gotten involved with in the Space Station. But at the time that you were working on these early programs, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, were you very aware of what the Russians were doing and was there much pressure, or was it more just working toward the goal?

[User] Well, there was always pressure to land on the Moon, but we never had any pressure to sacrifice safety for the schedule. Of course, it was a technical race, not a political race then. I think now everything’s political. It’s not up to me such to say whether that’s good or bad.

[Assistant] Certainly it’s very different than it used to be.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The space program kind of went through an evolutionary—well, it was very evolutionary. It started with Mercury with one person and moving up to Gemini and Apollo and so forth. Each one became more technically complicated with broader goals, broader objectives, and you were involved with each program along the way. How did you take lessons learned from the previous programs and apply them to the next?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was always pressure to land on the Moon, but we never had any pressure to sacrifice safety for the schedule. Of course, it was a technical race, not a political race then. I think now everything’s political. It’s not up to me such to say whether that’s good or bad.

[Assistant] Certainly it’s very different than it used to be.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The space program kind of went through an evolutionary—well, it was very evolutionary. It started with Mercury with one person and moving up to Gemini and Apollo and so forth. Each one became more technically complicated with broader goals, broader objectives, and you were involved with each program along the way. How did you take lessons learned from the previous programs and apply them to the next?

[User] Well, I guess part of it we called program memory; you remember a lot of things. We kept some documentation of lessons learned. Some of it seems like they’ve lost it all in the way they—of course, I was in manned spaceflight all the time, but some of the testing and configurations they’re putting out in these unmanned space projects, I think leaves something to be desired. But we must not overlook the fact that they are very, very difficult programs and they have less margin for error than manned programs, evidenced by Skylab. We would have lost a total program if we hadn’t taken advantage of the opportunity for man to accomplish something in space. Even without planning or training, I think we accomplished around 105 percent of what we set out to do after we had a very major structural failure.

[Assistant] Talking about Skylab and the failure, when that first happened, you had faced other failures before, in Apollo, problems like Apollo 13 and other minor failures along the way, too, but, as you mentioned, with Skylab that was such a major, a very critical—and could have meant the end of that program. How did everyone come together in a such short period of time to make that fix and make it work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess part of it we called program memory; you remember a lot of things. We kept some documentation of lessons learned. Some of it seems like they’ve lost it all in the way they—of course, I was in manned spaceflight all the time, but some of the testing and configurations they’re putting out in these unmanned space projects, I think leaves something to be desired. But we must not overlook the fact that they are very, very difficult programs and they have less margin for error than manned programs, evidenced by Skylab. We would have lost a total program if we hadn’t taken advantage of the opportunity for man to accomplish something in space. Even without planning or training, I think we accomplished around 105 percent of what we set out to do after we had a very major structural failure.

[Assistant] Talking about Skylab and the failure, when that first happened, you had faced other failures before, in Apollo, problems like Apollo 13 and other minor failures along the way, too, but, as you mentioned, with Skylab that was such a major, a very critical—and could have meant the end of that program. How did everyone come together in a such short period of time to make that fix and make it work?

[User] They didn’t do it in short period of time. It would appear that way, but as an afterthought, when you look back, we’ve all been together all the time. We just didn’t know how close together we were. But everybody—the industry, contractors, universities, and NASA centers—all pitched in. As a matter of fact, we couldn’t stop getting some of the help we needed, because it was more than we could control.

[Assistant] That spirit of teamwork is very important for making the whole program happen, and you had kind of seen that before, I’m assuming in Apollo 13 and in other similar events. Can you tell us some about some of the people that made up this team, both on the NASA side and the industry side?

[User] Well, I can’t cite at any one time anymore, but there was about 480,000 people working on Apollo before the landing.

[Assistant] Quite a few.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn’t do it in short period of time. It would appear that way, but as an afterthought, when you look back, we’ve all been together all the time. We just didn’t know how close together we were. But everybody—the industry, contractors, universities, and NASA centers—all pitched in. As a matter of fact, we couldn’t stop getting some of the help we needed, because it was more than we could control.

[Assistant] That spirit of teamwork is very important for making the whole program happen, and you had kind of seen that before, I’m assuming in Apollo 13 and in other similar events. Can you tell us some about some of the people that made up this team, both on the NASA side and the industry side?

[User] Well, I can’t cite at any one time anymore, but there was about 480,000 people working on Apollo before the landing.

[Assistant] Quite a few.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So many that had to come together to make it all happen. Again kind of talking with Skylab, you also worked later in your career on Spacelab and tied in with the Space Shuttle. Then looking now as we talked briefly about the Space Station and that hopefully that’s coming up to speed now, do you have some comparative thoughts on the three programs and things that we learned during Skylab that should apply to Space Station today or did apply for Spacelab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So many that had to come together to make it all happen. Again kind of talking with Skylab, you also worked later in your career on Spacelab and tied in with the Space Shuttle. Then looking now as we talked briefly about the Space Station and that hopefully that’s coming up to speed now, do you have some comparative thoughts on the three programs and things that we learned during Skylab that should apply to Space Station today or did apply for Spacelab?

[User] Well, nobody will ever just be able to dispute the fact that Skylab was our first space station. Spacelab, I guess, is sort of on the border, but it was not as general a lab as Skylab. But we learned a lot of lessons about testing and they’re all there. They’re still there, about testing systems end-to-end, environmental testing. I’m afraid we’re getting to be better, faster failures. I think we can turn that around. It is unfortunate to read about something that went on or was the cause of one of the recent anomalies, and say, “You know, we knew that. We’ve been there before.” But when you looked in the—what’s the newspaper for JSC?

[Assistant] The Roundup.

[User] Roundup. You don’t see many names you know anymore. I think the last two, I didn’t see a name in it I knew. So those people are gone, and you lose a lot of experience.

[Assistant] Hopefully some people are managing to pass the experience down to the new people coming in, or hopefully through a project like ours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, nobody will ever just be able to dispute the fact that Skylab was our first space station. Spacelab, I guess, is sort of on the border, but it was not as general a lab as Skylab. But we learned a lot of lessons about testing and they’re all there. They’re still there, about testing systems end-to-end, environmental testing. I’m afraid we’re getting to be better, faster failures. I think we can turn that around. It is unfortunate to read about something that went on or was the cause of one of the recent anomalies, and say, “You know, we knew that. We’ve been there before.” But when you looked in the—what’s the newspaper for JSC?

[Assistant] The Roundup.

[User] Roundup. You don’t see many names you know anymore. I think the last two, I didn’t see a name in it I knew. So those people are gone, and you lose a lot of experience.

[Assistant] Hopefully some people are managing to pass the experience down to the new people coming in, or hopefully through a project like ours.

[User] We had some differences between each of the original programs. It seems that every program manager wants to do it his way. Sometimes they're better ideas and sometimes they're not.

[Assistant] You did serve as a manager in some form or another for most of these programs, but yet you came from a very engineering and technical background. Did your background prepare you for these duties, and did you feel you were able to balance them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Roundup. You don’t see many names you know anymore. I think the last two, I didn’t see a name in it I knew. So those people are gone, and you lose a lot of experience.

[Assistant] Hopefully some people are managing to pass the experience down to the new people coming in, or hopefully through a project like ours.

[User] We had some differences between each of the original programs. It seems that every program manager wants to do it his way. Sometimes they're better ideas and sometimes they're not.

[Assistant] You did serve as a manager in some form or another for most of these programs, but yet you came from a very engineering and technical background. Did your background prepare you for these duties, and did you feel you were able to balance them?

[User] Well, I’d worked with the rocket engines. We had rocket engines in X-1, X-2, and X-15, and so I was very familiar with the rocket engine and its operation and with flying advanced hardware. We were the only place you could find it, at Edwards and Lewis [Research Center; Cleveland, Ohio] to some extent.

[Assistant] Was there a typical day for you while you were at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had some differences between each of the original programs. It seems that every program manager wants to do it his way. Sometimes they're better ideas and sometimes they're not.

[Assistant] You did serve as a manager in some form or another for most of these programs, but yet you came from a very engineering and technical background. Did your background prepare you for these duties, and did you feel you were able to balance them?

[User] Well, I’d worked with the rocket engines. We had rocket engines in X-1, X-2, and X-15, and so I was very familiar with the rocket engine and its operation and with flying advanced hardware. We were the only place you could find it, at Edwards and Lewis [Research Center; Cleveland, Ohio] to some extent.

[Assistant] Was there a typical day for you while you were at NASA?

[User] I don’t think so. Get up at six, go to work at seven, come home at eight, and handle things as they came up. I had a goal of never being indecisive. There are people that manage by indecision, waiting. My philosophy was, all right, after you had what you thought was enough information to make a decision, get started down the pathway to where you wanted to go. If that wasn’t right, you could always turn back and do it over. Doing that was less expensive than being indecisive and carrying a program down two parallel paths. We did that at times for technical reasons because it was clear for some aspects of a program, it could go either way. But there were other circumstances that would say, you shouldn’t do this. So we carried them in parallel until we could settle those questions.

[Assistant] Can always make sure you had the best choice then by having those two.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’d worked with the rocket engines. We had rocket engines in X-1, X-2, and X-15, and so I was very familiar with the rocket engine and its operation and with flying advanced hardware. We were the only place you could find it, at Edwards and Lewis [Research Center; Cleveland, Ohio] to some extent.

[Assistant] Was there a typical day for you while you were at NASA?

[User] I don’t think so. Get up at six, go to work at seven, come home at eight, and handle things as they came up. I had a goal of never being indecisive. There are people that manage by indecision, waiting. My philosophy was, all right, after you had what you thought was enough information to make a decision, get started down the pathway to where you wanted to go. If that wasn’t right, you could always turn back and do it over. Doing that was less expensive than being indecisive and carrying a program down two parallel paths. We did that at times for technical reasons because it was clear for some aspects of a program, it could go either way. But there were other circumstances that would say, you shouldn’t do this. So we carried them in parallel until we could settle those questions.

[Assistant] Can always make sure you had the best choice then by having those two.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It certainly seemed to have panned out pretty well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. Get up at six, go to work at seven, come home at eight, and handle things as they came up. I had a goal of never being indecisive. There are people that manage by indecision, waiting. My philosophy was, all right, after you had what you thought was enough information to make a decision, get started down the pathway to where you wanted to go. If that wasn’t right, you could always turn back and do it over. Doing that was less expensive than being indecisive and carrying a program down two parallel paths. We did that at times for technical reasons because it was clear for some aspects of a program, it could go either way. But there were other circumstances that would say, you shouldn’t do this. So we carried them in parallel until we could settle those questions.

[Assistant] Can always make sure you had the best choice then by having those two.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It certainly seemed to have panned out pretty well.

[User] Let me talk about the early part of the programs. Of course, we didn’t have money. All we had to do was dream about money, and somebody’d jam some down our throat in Mercury. In Apollo, it got a little tighter. Then after the Apollo fire we were able to get more money. I don’t think the fire was the cause for it. I think we did a lot of things after the fire that didn’t necessarily have to be done. You know, you have to be careful in situations like that that if isn’t broken, you don’t fix it. There was a lot of things that weren’t broken that got fixed and cost a lot of money. I thought at one time the way to become a hero was to foul something up and then come in and spend your way out of it. The more money you spent, the bigger hero you were. There’s been some cases of that.

[Assistant] Luckily, I think, a lot of people were very concerned, as you had mentioned earlier, of the safety and were willing to pay that extra—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It certainly seemed to have panned out pretty well.

[User] Let me talk about the early part of the programs. Of course, we didn’t have money. All we had to do was dream about money, and somebody’d jam some down our throat in Mercury. In Apollo, it got a little tighter. Then after the Apollo fire we were able to get more money. I don’t think the fire was the cause for it. I think we did a lot of things after the fire that didn’t necessarily have to be done. You know, you have to be careful in situations like that that if isn’t broken, you don’t fix it. There was a lot of things that weren’t broken that got fixed and cost a lot of money. I thought at one time the way to become a hero was to foul something up and then come in and spend your way out of it. The more money you spent, the bigger hero you were. There’s been some cases of that.

[Assistant] Luckily, I think, a lot of people were very concerned, as you had mentioned earlier, of the safety and were willing to pay that extra—

[User] Yes, and there’s always of things that aren’t black and white, but if you keep trying to improve everything you had, you never get there.

[Assistant] That’s true. It must have been hard sometimes to call that line, to say, “Okay, we’re here. This works, but we’ve got to stop.” Hard to make those decisions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me talk about the early part of the programs. Of course, we didn’t have money. All we had to do was dream about money, and somebody’d jam some down our throat in Mercury. In Apollo, it got a little tighter. Then after the Apollo fire we were able to get more money. I don’t think the fire was the cause for it. I think we did a lot of things after the fire that didn’t necessarily have to be done. You know, you have to be careful in situations like that that if isn’t broken, you don’t fix it. There was a lot of things that weren’t broken that got fixed and cost a lot of money. I thought at one time the way to become a hero was to foul something up and then come in and spend your way out of it. The more money you spent, the bigger hero you were. There’s been some cases of that.

[Assistant] Luckily, I think, a lot of people were very concerned, as you had mentioned earlier, of the safety and were willing to pay that extra—

[User] Yes, and there’s always of things that aren’t black and white, but if you keep trying to improve everything you had, you never get there.

[Assistant] That’s true. It must have been hard sometimes to call that line, to say, “Okay, we’re here. This works, but we’ve got to stop.” Hard to make those decisions.

[User] Yes. Was it Joe [Joseph F.] Shea had a saying that “the better was the enemy of the good.” There were times when we actually improved ourselves into some problems. Fortunately we found them through the comprehensive testing program. But it can be done.

[Assistant] There are so many parts and so many pieces of everything that had to come together to make it all happen, especially for Apollo, and you were starting from basically having never done this before, never sent a man into space on Mercury, and it all happened within a time frame of less than ten years. It took so many technological advances along the way. Did you ever stop and wonder if it was all really going to happen or to ponder some of those changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Again talking about the people and sacrifices people made, one of the people who hasn’t got a lot of exposure in the program is Dr. Gilruth. He did a lot, but he’s always been kind of behind the scenes when it comes to the written histories and published books and such. Can you tell us a little bit about him? You worked pretty close with him for a while.

[User] He's the biggest unsung hero I think I’ve ever known. He’s truly the father of manned spaceflight, not rocketry. Seems like everybody is more interested in rockets, so [Wernher] von Braun got all the publicity, and von Braun is more outgoing, he could talk to the people better. Bob just had his mind focused on the technical aspects of the program and how to get there.\n\n I can’t ever remember Bob telling anybody how to do something or to not do something. He just talked with them and talked with them, and, if you will, negotiated till they thought his idea was theirs and then it got done that way. Of course, he hasn’t been recognized after, and now it won’t do him any good. He doesn’t know what’s going on in the world now.

[Assistant] Unfortunately.

[User] He was the one that went up to see [Dwight D.] Eisenhower to brief him on the Mercury, and Eisenhower said, “What are we waiting for? Let’s go.”

[Assistant] The space program certainly owes a lot to Dr. Gilruth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was the one that went up to see [Dwight D.] Eisenhower to brief him on the Mercury, and Eisenhower said, “What are we waiting for? Let’s go.”

[Assistant] The space program certainly owes a lot to Dr. Gilruth.

[User] A lot of these people that were working for self—I don’t want to say “preservation,” for self-recognition, I guess—that want to step in and take over, you know. Mercury, we had—well, in fact, the doctors for a long time didn’t know whether we ought to do it or not.

[Assistant] That’s true.

[User] There was a number of them that was against it, or at least wanted to slow it down. I won’t say they were against it. But when we got the first flight off, everybody wanted to jump aboard, and they did.

[Assistant] They began to realize that it could be done and that everybody would be okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of these people that were working for self—I don’t want to say “preservation,” for self-recognition, I guess—that want to step in and take over, you know. Mercury, we had—well, in fact, the doctors for a long time didn’t know whether we ought to do it or not.

[Assistant] That’s true.

[User] There was a number of them that was against it, or at least wanted to slow it down. I won’t say they were against it. But when we got the first flight off, everybody wanted to jump aboard, and they did.

[Assistant] They began to realize that it could be done and that everybody would be okay.

[User] And they wanted to be a part of it then. Didn’t want to sit back and say, “Well, we told you so.”

[Assistant] That brings up an interesting point. Early on, very early on, as the program was just getting started, the Space Task Group was able to bring in a lot of younger people, and a few of the upper management types, a lot of people didn’t want to get involved early on because it seemed such a long shot or that it wouldn’t be possible. People talk about how the younger people just didn’t know that it wasn’t possible to do, that they just were excited about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a number of them that was against it, or at least wanted to slow it down. I won’t say they were against it. But when we got the first flight off, everybody wanted to jump aboard, and they did.

[Assistant] They began to realize that it could be done and that everybody would be okay.

[User] And they wanted to be a part of it then. Didn’t want to sit back and say, “Well, we told you so.”

[Assistant] That brings up an interesting point. Early on, very early on, as the program was just getting started, the Space Task Group was able to bring in a lot of younger people, and a few of the upper management types, a lot of people didn’t want to get involved early on because it seemed such a long shot or that it wouldn’t be possible. People talk about how the younger people just didn’t know that it wasn’t possible to do, that they just were excited about it.

[User] Well, that’s good.

[Assistant] Were you very involved—a large group of individuals came down from Avro [Ltd.] up in Canada to fill in some of that middle-management role. Did you have a lot of involvement with that or dealing with them in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they wanted to be a part of it then. Didn’t want to sit back and say, “Well, we told you so.”

[Assistant] That brings up an interesting point. Early on, very early on, as the program was just getting started, the Space Task Group was able to bring in a lot of younger people, and a few of the upper management types, a lot of people didn’t want to get involved early on because it seemed such a long shot or that it wouldn’t be possible. People talk about how the younger people just didn’t know that it wasn’t possible to do, that they just were excited about it.

[User] Well, that’s good.

[Assistant] Were you very involved—a large group of individuals came down from Avro [Ltd.] up in Canada to fill in some of that middle-management role. Did you have a lot of involvement with that or dealing with them in general?

[User] Well, we worked with them. They were integrated right into our organizations. It wasn’t a separate group sitting out to the side. They were all very good people.

[Assistant] Just fit right in without many problems, and everybody just want to work for the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s good.

[Assistant] Were you very involved—a large group of individuals came down from Avro [Ltd.] up in Canada to fill in some of that middle-management role. Did you have a lot of involvement with that or dealing with them in general?

[User] Well, we worked with them. They were integrated right into our organizations. It wasn’t a separate group sitting out to the side. They were all very good people.

[Assistant] Just fit right in without many problems, and everybody just want to work for the program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As the program had built up and working on Mercury, working on Gemini and Apollo and always shooting for the goal of getting to the Moon, as the Apollo Program was being accomplished, as the landings were happening, was when you transferred over to work on the Skylab Program. But Apollo only lasted for a few years before it was terminated. Did you have any thoughts with the ending of the Apollo Program and the loss of that specific goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we worked with them. They were integrated right into our organizations. It wasn’t a separate group sitting out to the side. They were all very good people.

[Assistant] Just fit right in without many problems, and everybody just want to work for the program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As the program had built up and working on Mercury, working on Gemini and Apollo and always shooting for the goal of getting to the Moon, as the Apollo Program was being accomplished, as the landings were happening, was when you transferred over to work on the Skylab Program. But Apollo only lasted for a few years before it was terminated. Did you have any thoughts with the ending of the Apollo Program and the loss of that specific goal?

[User] I didn’t. There were a lot of people that wanted to extend Skylab. They even tried to, and I think that was ludicrous. We designed the program to accomplish certain experiments, we did that, and it was over. We could have flown some more. Great expense, and we’d have just been repeating—generally, we’d been repeating what we’ve already done, and to some extent, we’re doing that with Shuttle now because Space Station hasn’t come along on time.\n\n I think Apollo accomplished its goal, and there was no more reason to fly except to glorify some more astronauts, I guess. See, Mercury was designed to be a three-orbit spacecraft—no, an orbital spacecraft, one orbit. When I came to the Space Task Group, it was too heavy to do one orbit. We kept working on weight, working on weight, and we got it down to we could do three orbits. So I guess—see, my memory’s so bad—was John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] the three-orbit?

[Assistant] I believe so. Three or six.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he did.

[Assistant] Jim Webb is another person that unfortunately we can’t talk to, but can you tell us a little bit about him as a NASA administrator, his career for so many years?

[User] He was just an outstanding administrator. He knew and understood the federal government. I think he knew where a lot of ghosts were hidden in Congress, because when he wanted something, he just went up and told them. One time we went to Webb with a budget for Apollo and he just doubled it. He said, “That’s how much it’s going to take,” and he was right. He talked to people, not down to them. Of course, sometimes he’d get to talking and by the time he finished, you weren’t sure about everything he talked about. But he could hold people’s attention.

[Assistant] Certainly seemed to be the right man for the job, looking back on it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Looking back to when NASA was first founded and it was a fledgling agency, people coming in from all over to build it up, to make it happen, building off of the NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], and NASA was able to accomplish so much in such a short time, what do you think now that it would take for a program like Apollo to happen again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Their Spacelab has performed outstandingly.

[Assistant] It will be interesting to see how the partnership grows.

[User] Yes, but, you know, you wonder. They built it and gave it to us. We had all kinds of agreements, and we could still be using it, but it’s been pickled.

[Assistant] Hopefully all will go well with the Space Station on the right side of things, and we’ll see some of that progress being made again.\n\n We’ve covered most of the topics that I had. Are there any thoughts that you would like share with us on anything in your career with NASA or, again, any particular memories or events or people?

[User] Well, overall, I’d like to say again that I think Bob Gilruth was most likely the most important man in the program for getting it started, getting it organized, getting the money to start with, and managing it through lunar orbit.\n\n Walt Williams came from Edwards where I did and, in fact, he invited me to come. He had a lot to do with the success of the program because he’d been managing the operations of the high-speed airplanes. There’s a lot of others. If you start naming, you can’t stop, so I’ll stop there.

[Assistant] Certainly a lot of important people that all had to be in the right place at the right time and give it a lot to make it all work. We certainly appreciate all you did for the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but, you know, you wonder. They built it and gave it to us. We had all kinds of agreements, and we could still be using it, but it’s been pickled.

[Assistant] Hopefully all will go well with the Space Station on the right side of things, and we’ll see some of that progress being made again.\n\n We’ve covered most of the topics that I had. Are there any thoughts that you would like share with us on anything in your career with NASA or, again, any particular memories or events or people?

[User] Well, overall, I’d like to say again that I think Bob Gilruth was most likely the most important man in the program for getting it started, getting it organized, getting the money to start with, and managing it through lunar orbit.\n\n Walt Williams came from Edwards where I did and, in fact, he invited me to come. He had a lot to do with the success of the program because he’d been managing the operations of the high-speed airplanes. There’s a lot of others. If you start naming, you can’t stop, so I’ll stop there.

[Assistant] Certainly a lot of important people that all had to be in the right place at the right time and give it a lot to make it all work. We certainly appreciate all you did for the program.

[User] Well, thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you and thank you for talking with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My staging took place in Miami. Miami, Florida. It was actually my first time going to Miami as well, so that was pretty dope. And it was kind of a little shock. I was like, damn, like this lower Latin America it sounded like. They're speaking an awful lot of Spanish here. And I was like, we didn't even leave the country yet. Why am I getting hit in the head with all this? But it was dope. It was awesome. I enjoyed Miami a lot and I look forward to returning.

[Assistant] How many people were in your group?

[User] Approximately, I would say approximately 50. To be more exact, it was like 47 or so.

[Assistant] And were all of you in the urban youth development program.

[User]
So there was approximately 50, 47 or so. Two cohorts. One cohort, Omnibus 118. In this cohort, there were two programs. There are in Ecuador in general, however, in this cohort there were two. There was the youth and families program and there was also the community development program.

And something else that was really notable with staging. I was extremely surprised by the diversity of the cohort. Because like from my knowledge, my perspective, what I had heard and seen, I guess, just like the traditional Peace Corps history, the majority of volunteers, RPCVs, are Caucasian. They're white. And so, you know, that was, I was like, OK, like, I'm going to be a super minority here. Which I didn't have a problem with, I'm coming from a black city. But thankfully, you know, I met my fair share of people in life and especially undergrad, interning in Annapolis with the Maryland General Assembly, interning at like the World Trade Center Institute. But this was going to be something different, and it was an extremely nice mix. So that was a very great feeling to start off my Peace Corps journey. Again, it was people from all walks of life, every, every. I feel like a lot of ethnicities were represented in that cohort.

[Assistant] How many days did you stay in Miami?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Approximately, I would say approximately 50. To be more exact, it was like 47 or so.

[Assistant] And were all of you in the urban youth development program.

[User]
So there was approximately 50, 47 or so. Two cohorts. One cohort, Omnibus 118. In this cohort, there were two programs. There are in Ecuador in general, however, in this cohort there were two. There was the youth and families program and there was also the community development program.

And something else that was really notable with staging. I was extremely surprised by the diversity of the cohort. Because like from my knowledge, my perspective, what I had heard and seen, I guess, just like the traditional Peace Corps history, the majority of volunteers, RPCVs, are Caucasian. They're white. And so, you know, that was, I was like, OK, like, I'm going to be a super minority here. Which I didn't have a problem with, I'm coming from a black city. But thankfully, you know, I met my fair share of people in life and especially undergrad, interning in Annapolis with the Maryland General Assembly, interning at like the World Trade Center Institute. But this was going to be something different, and it was an extremely nice mix. So that was a very great feeling to start off my Peace Corps journey. Again, it was people from all walks of life, every, every. I feel like a lot of ethnicities were represented in that cohort.

[Assistant] How many days did you stay in Miami?

[User] We stayed there maybe three days or so. That may be three days, two nights, something like that. Maybe it was longer. I really recall, something like that.

[Assistant] Were there any trainings during your staging that took place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We stayed there maybe three days or so. That may be three days, two nights, something like that. Maybe it was longer. I really recall, something like that.

[Assistant] Were there any trainings during your staging that took place?

[User] I don't recall them, but there were several trainings to prepare us for departure and also maybe like some scared straights. Like, oh look, if you ain't serious about it, like don't get on that plane. I'm joking around maybe. They really did put an emphasis like, you know, it's the last time before you guys depart. So, you know, if it's really not for you, you know, it's like this is the last chance. And they didn't blatantly say that, but like, that's kind of like the tone. And from that, only one individual left. There was some gentleman, I mean, that was the only person who left prior to staging. Or during staging.

[Assistant] So I remember in my staging that this was when I received my official Peace Corps passport. So as someone who never traveled abroad, was that your very first passport? And if so, how did you feel when you got your passport in your hand?

[User] That's a great question. So despite not traveling abroad, I was ready before I even went to Peace Corps. I had a passport when I was an undergrad, I was just waiting for the right opportunity. So I had a passport several years, you know, before the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Just never used it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall them, but there were several trainings to prepare us for departure and also maybe like some scared straights. Like, oh look, if you ain't serious about it, like don't get on that plane. I'm joking around maybe. They really did put an emphasis like, you know, it's the last time before you guys depart. So, you know, if it's really not for you, you know, it's like this is the last chance. And they didn't blatantly say that, but like, that's kind of like the tone. And from that, only one individual left. There was some gentleman, I mean, that was the only person who left prior to staging. Or during staging.

[Assistant] So I remember in my staging that this was when I received my official Peace Corps passport. So as someone who never traveled abroad, was that your very first passport? And if so, how did you feel when you got your passport in your hand?

[User] That's a great question. So despite not traveling abroad, I was ready before I even went to Peace Corps. I had a passport when I was an undergrad, I was just waiting for the right opportunity. So I had a passport several years, you know, before the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Just never used it.

[User] Never had an opportunity to use it. So when I finally, I think I didn't get my. For me personally, I don't think we got our passports until we were in country, actually. Oh, I forgot. Don't. I forgot, but maybe I don't even remember. But the one thing I do remember when I got my Peace Corps passport was I was disappointed. I was disappointed because my personal passport, some Walgreens or Rite Aid employee ain't do their job.

[Assistant] You liked the picture better.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a great question. So despite not traveling abroad, I was ready before I even went to Peace Corps. I had a passport when I was an undergrad, I was just waiting for the right opportunity. So I had a passport several years, you know, before the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Just never used it.

[User] Never had an opportunity to use it. So when I finally, I think I didn't get my. For me personally, I don't think we got our passports until we were in country, actually. Oh, I forgot. Don't. I forgot, but maybe I don't even remember. But the one thing I do remember when I got my Peace Corps passport was I was disappointed. I was disappointed because my personal passport, some Walgreens or Rite Aid employee ain't do their job.

[Assistant] You liked the picture better.

[User] And they allowed me to smile and I think I have a great smile. And so I was extremely impressed and I said, that man looked good. He looks great. I looked outstanding in my regular passport, but unfortunately somebody started doing their job and I had like this straight face that I really didn't like that, honestly. So it was dope, like, oh this is a Peace Corps passport. I got two passports. Like, you know, it wasn't a diplomatic passport, but it was like, it was dope and like the idea. But I was a little disappointed.

[Assistant] The idea of legally having two passports.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never had an opportunity to use it. So when I finally, I think I didn't get my. For me personally, I don't think we got our passports until we were in country, actually. Oh, I forgot. Don't. I forgot, but maybe I don't even remember. But the one thing I do remember when I got my Peace Corps passport was I was disappointed. I was disappointed because my personal passport, some Walgreens or Rite Aid employee ain't do their job.

[Assistant] You liked the picture better.

[User] And they allowed me to smile and I think I have a great smile. And so I was extremely impressed and I said, that man looked good. He looks great. I looked outstanding in my regular passport, but unfortunately somebody started doing their job and I had like this straight face that I really didn't like that, honestly. So it was dope, like, oh this is a Peace Corps passport. I got two passports. Like, you know, it wasn't a diplomatic passport, but it was like, it was dope and like the idea. But I was a little disappointed.

[Assistant] The idea of legally having two passports.

[User] Yeah, like having a Peace Corps passport, whatever I thought that meant at that time. But the picture was just like. But it was dope. It was cool.

[Assistant] So you get on, was it a direct flight to Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they allowed me to smile and I think I have a great smile. And so I was extremely impressed and I said, that man looked good. He looks great. I looked outstanding in my regular passport, but unfortunately somebody started doing their job and I had like this straight face that I really didn't like that, honestly. So it was dope, like, oh this is a Peace Corps passport. I got two passports. Like, you know, it wasn't a diplomatic passport, but it was like, it was dope and like the idea. But I was a little disappointed.

[Assistant] The idea of legally having two passports.

[User] Yeah, like having a Peace Corps passport, whatever I thought that meant at that time. But the picture was just like. But it was dope. It was cool.

[Assistant] So you get on, was it a direct flight to Ecuador?

[User] It was from Miami. It was a direct flight.

[Assistant] What was it like for you getting out, stepping off of the plane? What were the sounds, the smells? You know, what did you see? What was the shock factor like when you realized, I'm in another country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was from Miami. It was a direct flight.

[Assistant] What was it like for you getting out, stepping off of the plane? What were the sounds, the smells? You know, what did you see? What was the shock factor like when you realized, I'm in another country?

[User] OK. That's a great question. So we got there at like, I don't, I don't remember. But it was early morning, maybe 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, something like that. But the thing that really stood out was this weird smell to me, and I don't know if it was really a weird. I asked a few people, and apparently it was just me. Maybe it was just the difference in the air quality or whatever the case may be. Quito is actually one of, maybe it's changed. They share like, it's the highest capital in the world, and if it's not the highest, it's definitely one of the highest. So the altitude plays a very significant role and factor for a lot of people. Pardon me. When they travel to Quito, especially if they are coming from a sea level city, which most, you know, cities on the East Coast of the U.S. are. Maybe the closest thing to prepare you for Quito.

[Assistant] Miami?

[User] No, for Quito, specifically, in Ecuador would be.

[Assistant] Oh, it's higher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK. That's a great question. So we got there at like, I don't, I don't remember. But it was early morning, maybe 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, something like that. But the thing that really stood out was this weird smell to me, and I don't know if it was really a weird. I asked a few people, and apparently it was just me. Maybe it was just the difference in the air quality or whatever the case may be. Quito is actually one of, maybe it's changed. They share like, it's the highest capital in the world, and if it's not the highest, it's definitely one of the highest. So the altitude plays a very significant role and factor for a lot of people. Pardon me. When they travel to Quito, especially if they are coming from a sea level city, which most, you know, cities on the East Coast of the U.S. are. Maybe the closest thing to prepare you for Quito.

[Assistant] Miami?

[User] No, for Quito, specifically, in Ecuador would be.

[Assistant] Oh, it's higher.

[User] Exactly. Maybe mile high Denver. But Quito is however many meters higher. And so maybe that's just what it was. It was the air, a little, whatever. But that's something. I don't know if it was the smell or whatever, but that's what really stood out to me upon arriving in Ecuador. It was like the biggest thing.

[Assistant] Did you have an opportunity? Oh, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, for Quito, specifically, in Ecuador would be.

[Assistant] Oh, it's higher.

[User] Exactly. Maybe mile high Denver. But Quito is however many meters higher. And so maybe that's just what it was. It was the air, a little, whatever. But that's something. I don't know if it was the smell or whatever, but that's what really stood out to me upon arriving in Ecuador. It was like the biggest thing.

[Assistant] Did you have an opportunity? Oh, go ahead.

[User] I'm sorry. And the airport was really modern, so it wasn't like what people think or at least what I thought. And a lot of people think about Peace Corps, middle of nowhere. No, it was super modern. So it was like, I don't know, stepping off of, going to any.

[Assistant] You had air conditioning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Maybe mile high Denver. But Quito is however many meters higher. And so maybe that's just what it was. It was the air, a little, whatever. But that's something. I don't know if it was the smell or whatever, but that's what really stood out to me upon arriving in Ecuador. It was like the biggest thing.

[Assistant] Did you have an opportunity? Oh, go ahead.

[User] I'm sorry. And the airport was really modern, so it wasn't like what people think or at least what I thought. And a lot of people think about Peace Corps, middle of nowhere. No, it was super modern. So it was like, I don't know, stepping off of, going to any.

[Assistant] You had air conditioning.

[User] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was extremely modern. So I just wanted to add that for the record. It wasn't like what we think, middle of nowhere, small plane, dirt road.

[Assistant] Who, if anyone, did you all meet anyone at the airport? Did anyone from Peace Corps staff meet with you upon landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry. And the airport was really modern, so it wasn't like what people think or at least what I thought. And a lot of people think about Peace Corps, middle of nowhere. No, it was super modern. So it was like, I don't know, stepping off of, going to any.

[Assistant] You had air conditioning.

[User] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was extremely modern. So I just wanted to add that for the record. It wasn't like what we think, middle of nowhere, small plane, dirt road.

[Assistant] Who, if anyone, did you all meet anyone at the airport? Did anyone from Peace Corps staff meet with you upon landing?

[User] Yeah. So I guess surprisingly, and I thought it was standard. Apparently, it's not. But our country director was actually there upon arriving. The deputy country director. Several key staff from the pre- service training were there as well, in addition to several PCVLs. PCVL stands for Peace Corps volunteer leaders. And so we were embraced. Like we arrived and those people were there to help us with our bags, show us to the shuttle, and we went to the hostel. So those were some of the first people that were notable upon arriving.

[Assistant] So you stayed at a hostel with all 47 or 46 volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was extremely modern. So I just wanted to add that for the record. It wasn't like what we think, middle of nowhere, small plane, dirt road.

[Assistant] Who, if anyone, did you all meet anyone at the airport? Did anyone from Peace Corps staff meet with you upon landing?

[User] Yeah. So I guess surprisingly, and I thought it was standard. Apparently, it's not. But our country director was actually there upon arriving. The deputy country director. Several key staff from the pre- service training were there as well, in addition to several PCVLs. PCVL stands for Peace Corps volunteer leaders. And so we were embraced. Like we arrived and those people were there to help us with our bags, show us to the shuttle, and we went to the hostel. So those were some of the first people that were notable upon arriving.

[Assistant] So you stayed at a hostel with all 47 or 46 volunteers.

[User] We were deep. It was like 47. I think it might have been like two more people who ain't, who never showed, that might have took away from that. Maybe two or three, whatever, something like that, who didn't show and then like the one kid who dropped.

[Assistant] So this was in Quito, specifically where you landed and where the hostel was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So I guess surprisingly, and I thought it was standard. Apparently, it's not. But our country director was actually there upon arriving. The deputy country director. Several key staff from the pre- service training were there as well, in addition to several PCVLs. PCVL stands for Peace Corps volunteer leaders. And so we were embraced. Like we arrived and those people were there to help us with our bags, show us to the shuttle, and we went to the hostel. So those were some of the first people that were notable upon arriving.

[Assistant] So you stayed at a hostel with all 47 or 46 volunteers.

[User] We were deep. It was like 47. I think it might have been like two more people who ain't, who never showed, that might have took away from that. Maybe two or three, whatever, something like that, who didn't show and then like the one kid who dropped.

[Assistant] So this was in Quito, specifically where you landed and where the hostel was?

[User] Quito. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[Assistant] And is that where you had your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were deep. It was like 47. I think it might have been like two more people who ain't, who never showed, that might have took away from that. Maybe two or three, whatever, something like that, who didn't show and then like the one kid who dropped.

[Assistant] So this was in Quito, specifically where you landed and where the hostel was?

[User] Quito. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[Assistant] And is that where you had your training?

[User] So we went to a hotel that was by the Peace Corps like headquarters.

[Assistant] You said hotel or did you mean the hostel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quito. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[Assistant] And is that where you had your training?

[User] So we went to a hotel that was by the Peace Corps like headquarters.

[Assistant] You said hotel or did you mean the hostel?

[User] We went to. So when we arrived, we stayed at a hostel. And the Peace Corps, I didn't know it at the time, but the Peace Corps headquarters was like two blocks away. But we stayed at a hostel maybe. Did we get there during the week? I forgot. We stayed there for, like, maybe we arrived in the middle of the week and we went back and forth until the end of the week until the weekend came and then we went to our host families. But no. Where we stayed and the training center were in two different parts of Quito. The training center was in a community called Monteserrin and that is a really exclusive neighborhood in Quito actually. It's a neighborhood where some of the well-to-do, maybe even elite, stay. A lot of diplomats live there. President Correa lived there at one time. The U.S. ambassador had a home there. And that's where the training center was. So no, where we originally arrived and where we trained were two different locations.

[Assistant] And so after your first weekend, you went to a host family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we went to a hotel that was by the Peace Corps like headquarters.

[Assistant] You said hotel or did you mean the hostel?

[User] We went to. So when we arrived, we stayed at a hostel. And the Peace Corps, I didn't know it at the time, but the Peace Corps headquarters was like two blocks away. But we stayed at a hostel maybe. Did we get there during the week? I forgot. We stayed there for, like, maybe we arrived in the middle of the week and we went back and forth until the end of the week until the weekend came and then we went to our host families. But no. Where we stayed and the training center were in two different parts of Quito. The training center was in a community called Monteserrin and that is a really exclusive neighborhood in Quito actually. It's a neighborhood where some of the well-to-do, maybe even elite, stay. A lot of diplomats live there. President Correa lived there at one time. The U.S. ambassador had a home there. And that's where the training center was. So no, where we originally arrived and where we trained were two different locations.

[Assistant] And so after your first weekend, you went to a host family.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] So how were they assigned to you? How did your initial meeting with this new family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Technical training? So technical training simply refers to the program in which you'll be serving. There are few programs in the Peace Corps. Don't quote me on all of them right now, but there's the youth and family program. There's the TEFL, teaching English as a foreign language program. There's the community development program. There's the agricultural program. There's the business development program. And there's one more I'm missing.

[Assistant] Health.

[User] Health. Did I say community development? That's what I meant, health. But anyway, so those are approximately six programs. Technical training just refers to the program in which you'll be serving.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So for me, technical training was related to youth development. And youth development specifically with Ecuadorians.

[Assistant] I'd like to move beyond training in a moment, but I do have two questions for you. What was that first dinner like and was it something that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a great question. I can't really recall the first night to the T or exactly, but I do recall my room. I had my own room. I mean, their home was nice. They lived in like a three-story home. They rented out like the second floor to another family. We lived on the first floor. I had my own room. It was four walls. I mean, I'm not constipated. But when it was lights out and it was dark, it was dark. There were no windows to let light in, so that was a little unique and different. But you know, I had my own room. It's cool. I mean, I had my own room before I left, too, but I thought it was dope. I ain't really know what to expect, where we would be going like. It was definitely way far removed from what I originally thought, middle of nowhere and all types of wild, stereotypical things. And I was impressed. I was impressed by the room and just their home in general.

[Assistant] How many of you swore in as volunteers? Well, let me rephrase. Did the majority of you make it to swearing-in?

[User] The majority did, yes.

[Assistant] And you stayed a few weeks extra to get additional language training. Were you all assigned a counterpart at your new location that you would be living in for the next two years? And if so, did you meet them while you were still in training? How did that happen?

[User] How did we meet our counterparts essentially? OK. So yeah, thankfully, so towards the end of our pre-service training, we were informed of where we essentially would be serving the next two years. And then not too long after that, I think that following week, we met our counterparts.

[Assistant] Did you have a choice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The majority did, yes.

[Assistant] And you stayed a few weeks extra to get additional language training. Were you all assigned a counterpart at your new location that you would be living in for the next two years? And if so, did you meet them while you were still in training? How did that happen?

[User] How did we meet our counterparts essentially? OK. So yeah, thankfully, so towards the end of our pre-service training, we were informed of where we essentially would be serving the next two years. And then not too long after that, I think that following week, we met our counterparts.

[Assistant] Did you have a choice?

[User] And this was before swearing-in.

[Assistant] Ah, OK. Did you have a choice or did you have any input in terms of where you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How did we meet our counterparts essentially? OK. So yeah, thankfully, so towards the end of our pre-service training, we were informed of where we essentially would be serving the next two years. And then not too long after that, I think that following week, we met our counterparts.

[Assistant] Did you have a choice?

[User] And this was before swearing-in.

[Assistant] Ah, OK. Did you have a choice or did you have any input in terms of where you went?

[User] Where you would serve? Um. Unfortunately, I mean, and that's so selfish, but you got to keep in mind like the bigger Peace Corps and the ten core expectations and being willing to go and serve where you're needed and whatever. But no. So unfortunately, no. After we got to country, we didn't have an option to where we wanted to serve. For me, which was a bummer, I would have preferred to serve elsewhere, specifically at an Afro Ecuadorian community. However, I was informed that there were no Afro Ecuadorian sites available to serve in, so that was disappointing.

[Assistant] Was that because they weren't open for volunteers or they just were filled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Certainly. Definitely want to continue in international development.

[Assistant] Do you still want to work with youth?

[User] Certainly. No ands, ifs, or buts about that. You know, like I said, it's a blessing that I'm here. Not super religious, but I'm appreciative of that. And I'm here because of some of the people who invested in it and me and mentored me and taught me some of the soft skills to kind of navigate the world to get to where I am today.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I think it's only right to pay that forward because had it not been for them, I'm almost certain that I wouldn't be where I am. I wouldn't have made it to the Peace Corps. I wouldn't have made it to underground, wouldn't have graduated. Wouldn't have had that job. It's just a lot of things that wouldn't, I don't believe, would have come into fruition had it not been for them. So it's only right to pay it forward. So I definitely plan to continue with youth, but I definitely want to continue in the international development field and just my ultimate goal is to contribute to ending extreme poverty. Obviously, I don't believe it'll end in my lifetime. But I want to be a part of making that contribution to say, one day, not even. It'd be dope if you know somebody like, actually remember my name one day. They're like, remember Imhotep, you know, that'd be dope. I want to say.

[Assistant] You want to know that you did something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you, Pat.

[Assistant] And we're delighted that your story can go into the John F. Kennedy Library and represent the thousands of Peace Corps volunteers who have served in various countries.

[User] I'm really honored. I am.

[Assistant] We're delighted to have you joined this group. So we're going to start by covering a little bit of your pre Peace Corps years. A lot of the interview will be focusing on what you did in Peace Corps and how you experienced that. And in the end, we'll have some reflections about the Peace Corps and how it's influenced your life and what you're doing now, for example. So let's start about before you joined the Peace Corps and think what were you doing in the year just before you went into Peace Corps?

[User] I've been a nurse since 1970 and so I was working. I was working in a hospital and preparing, because I had filled out the information to go to Peace Corps and was just working and waiting to hear.

[Assistant] Great. So let's go back even further. Your family of origin, where did you grow up and was your family exposed at all to international things? But just talk about your family of origin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm really honored. I am.

[Assistant] We're delighted to have you joined this group. So we're going to start by covering a little bit of your pre Peace Corps years. A lot of the interview will be focusing on what you did in Peace Corps and how you experienced that. And in the end, we'll have some reflections about the Peace Corps and how it's influenced your life and what you're doing now, for example. So let's start about before you joined the Peace Corps and think what were you doing in the year just before you went into Peace Corps?

[User] I've been a nurse since 1970 and so I was working. I was working in a hospital and preparing, because I had filled out the information to go to Peace Corps and was just working and waiting to hear.

[Assistant] Great. So let's go back even further. Your family of origin, where did you grow up and was your family exposed at all to international things? But just talk about your family of origin.

[User] I am actually third generation in this country, my parents. No actually, second generation. My parents were first generation. All of my grandparents were from Sicily and they came to this country around 1880s, 1890s. So both of my parents were the first born here in 1908 and 1916. So very, uh, a very quote Italian family. And I was born in actually East St. Louis, Illinois, in 1948. And basically lived in Illinois, around there and in St. Louis, Missouri, up until I went to Peace Corps. Other than I had a two year time away from St. Louis when I was living in Tacoma, Washington. I had been married at the time and my husband then was in the Army. So I came out to Washington state and I was in nursing school at the time. And so I actually finished my diploma school nursing program, which is something they had back then that they don't have now, and was able to graduate at a hospital in Tacoma, Washington. And from that time on, I did nursing.

[Assistant] And what year was that that you finished your diploma for nursing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've been a nurse since 1970 and so I was working. I was working in a hospital and preparing, because I had filled out the information to go to Peace Corps and was just working and waiting to hear.

[Assistant] Great. So let's go back even further. Your family of origin, where did you grow up and was your family exposed at all to international things? But just talk about your family of origin.

[User] I am actually third generation in this country, my parents. No actually, second generation. My parents were first generation. All of my grandparents were from Sicily and they came to this country around 1880s, 1890s. So both of my parents were the first born here in 1908 and 1916. So very, uh, a very quote Italian family. And I was born in actually East St. Louis, Illinois, in 1948. And basically lived in Illinois, around there and in St. Louis, Missouri, up until I went to Peace Corps. Other than I had a two year time away from St. Louis when I was living in Tacoma, Washington. I had been married at the time and my husband then was in the Army. So I came out to Washington state and I was in nursing school at the time. And so I actually finished my diploma school nursing program, which is something they had back then that they don't have now, and was able to graduate at a hospital in Tacoma, Washington. And from that time on, I did nursing.

[Assistant] And what year was that that you finished your diploma for nursing?

[User] Yeah. 1970.

[Assistant] OK. And then so you went to high school in East St. Louis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am actually third generation in this country, my parents. No actually, second generation. My parents were first generation. All of my grandparents were from Sicily and they came to this country around 1880s, 1890s. So both of my parents were the first born here in 1908 and 1916. So very, uh, a very quote Italian family. And I was born in actually East St. Louis, Illinois, in 1948. And basically lived in Illinois, around there and in St. Louis, Missouri, up until I went to Peace Corps. Other than I had a two year time away from St. Louis when I was living in Tacoma, Washington. I had been married at the time and my husband then was in the Army. So I came out to Washington state and I was in nursing school at the time. And so I actually finished my diploma school nursing program, which is something they had back then that they don't have now, and was able to graduate at a hospital in Tacoma, Washington. And from that time on, I did nursing.

[Assistant] And what year was that that you finished your diploma for nursing?

[User] Yeah. 1970.

[Assistant] OK. And then so you went to high school in East St. Louis?

[User] No, I went to high school in the suburbs. Well, sort of like the suburbs of St. Louis. It was a neighborhood called Bell Fountain Neighbors, and that school is still there actually. They changed the name of it. It was a, it is still a Catholic high school. It was called Rosary at the time. And because of the economy and lots of things, a number of the Catholic high schools have closed and they consolidated them to the actual school where I went to high school and they now call it Trinity High School so.

[Assistant] And what about college? Where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was more like personnel, that's where they had this health community aspect going. Human resource development actually was the official title. So that's where I got that. And during that time and right after that time and like right before, during and after that time, I decided to just go on my own. And I did a lot of work at different, like consulting work, at different hospitals and venues. Again, like with the American Heart Association, the American Lung Association, different human resource places and some hospitals where I presented programs and did wellness days, things like that. And I put together some of my own lectures and programs and went out and did that for a while, which it was. It was more like play than work.

[Assistant] But you got paid for it.

[User] I got paid for it.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] It was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] So during this time, you now have a bachelor's degree. You have a family. You have children at this point and how old are they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got paid for it.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] It was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] So during this time, you now have a bachelor's degree. You have a family. You have children at this point and how old are they?

[User] Yeah, my kids were late, no, early teens. Yeah. Early teens.

[Assistant] While you were in college, they were in their teens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] So during this time, you now have a bachelor's degree. You have a family. You have children at this point and how old are they?

[User] Yeah, my kids were late, no, early teens. Yeah. Early teens.

[Assistant] While you were in college, they were in their teens?

[User] Late, you know, like eighth grade, yeah, right around there. Thirteen.

[Assistant] And then you worked. And so I'm going to, if I'm jumping ahead too fast, you tell me. But how did you find out about Peace Corps then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my kids were late, no, early teens. Yeah. Early teens.

[Assistant] While you were in college, they were in their teens?

[User] Late, you know, like eighth grade, yeah, right around there. Thirteen.

[Assistant] And then you worked. And so I'm going to, if I'm jumping ahead too fast, you tell me. But how did you find out about Peace Corps then?

[User] Well, you know, I always had, it felt like there was in my heart, something to do in addition to, you know, some kind of helpful thing, in addition to just, quote, just being a nurse. I just felt like I had another calling, something else to do, and I did a lot of research for a while on what kinds of things that I could do. And I was just talking to somebody one day and this person said, you know, it sounds to me like something like Peace Corps would be something you should look into. And I remember thinking, oh gosh, I'd never even thought about that. I was just throwing this wide net out and looking at all kinds of things. And Peace Corps never was on my radar screen, so to speak, until she said that. And I said, yeah, yeah, I'll think about it. And so at sometime later, it wasn't right then, I decided to. I called them, because this was pre internet.

[Assistant] So this would have been in the early '90s.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was very hard.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So in the end, you know, she did go to the airport and wish me well, you know. And so that was, you know, I felt a little better about that, but she, it took her. It took her, well, I don't think she ever really let it go until after I came back. Yeah, it was just, it was hard. Yeah, it was really hard for her. And because, you know, her and I were very close. We were the only, I was her only sister. She was my only sister. And we did a lot together and we lived fairly close to each other. And so, you know, I mean. It was hard, it was hard. Because, you know, I didn't want to leave her, but I knew I had to do this for me as well. And I just kept saying, you know, the kids are grown up, they're gone basically. And, you know, I feel compelled. This is how I want to give back. And I said, I know it's going to sound corny, but I have been so blessed in my life with having been gifted so many things with my education and, you know, the work that I've been able to have, and I just feel like I want to give back.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You know, and I'm not going to go in the military, but I can do something for this country. You know, that's what I can do.

[Assistant] Right. And for other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So in the end, you know, she did go to the airport and wish me well, you know. And so that was, you know, I felt a little better about that, but she, it took her. It took her, well, I don't think she ever really let it go until after I came back. Yeah, it was just, it was hard. Yeah, it was really hard for her. And because, you know, her and I were very close. We were the only, I was her only sister. She was my only sister. And we did a lot together and we lived fairly close to each other. And so, you know, I mean. It was hard, it was hard. Because, you know, I didn't want to leave her, but I knew I had to do this for me as well. And I just kept saying, you know, the kids are grown up, they're gone basically. And, you know, I feel compelled. This is how I want to give back. And I said, I know it's going to sound corny, but I have been so blessed in my life with having been gifted so many things with my education and, you know, the work that I've been able to have, and I just feel like I want to give back.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You know, and I'm not going to go in the military, but I can do something for this country. You know, that's what I can do.

[Assistant] Right. And for other people.

[User] And for other people.

[Assistant] OK, let's skip ahead now to you got on that plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, and I'm not going to go in the military, but I can do something for this country. You know, that's what I can do.

[Assistant] Right. And for other people.

[User] And for other people.

[Assistant] OK, let's skip ahead now to you got on that plane.

[User] Got on the plane.

[Assistant] And went to Ecuador. Did you start your training in Ecuador or did you gather someplace in the United States and then go to Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And for other people.

[Assistant] OK, let's skip ahead now to you got on that plane.

[User] Got on the plane.

[Assistant] And went to Ecuador. Did you start your training in Ecuador or did you gather someplace in the United States and then go to Ecuador?

[User] Yeah, we went to Miami.

[Assistant] Everybody in your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got on the plane.

[Assistant] And went to Ecuador. Did you start your training in Ecuador or did you gather someplace in the United States and then go to Ecuador?

[User] Yeah, we went to Miami.

[Assistant] Everybody in your training group?

[User] Everybody in my training group went to Miami. We were there a couple of days. And you know, it was just, you know, just the basics. This is, you know, what's going to happen. And you know, here are the people that you're going to like, the health volunteers, we got together and we met each other. And, you know, it was the beginning there.

[Assistant] And how many were you then? How many gathered in Miami?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody in my training group went to Miami. We were there a couple of days. And you know, it was just, you know, just the basics. This is, you know, what's going to happen. And you know, here are the people that you're going to like, the health volunteers, we got together and we met each other. And, you know, it was the beginning there.

[Assistant] And how many were you then? How many gathered in Miami?

[User] So my omnibus had, let's see. There was probably, oh gosh, 40? At least that many. There was health. Uh, ganadería. What is ganadería in English? Like animal husbandry.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And youth development. And they also I think they still had a water program there, so there was like those four programs. While we were there, they closed the water program. So there was just the youth development, the health, and the animal husbandry kind of people.

[Assistant] And so you all trained together, that was in 1993. What did you say, was it was June that you gathered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my omnibus had, let's see. There was probably, oh gosh, 40? At least that many. There was health. Uh, ganadería. What is ganadería in English? Like animal husbandry.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And youth development. And they also I think they still had a water program there, so there was like those four programs. While we were there, they closed the water program. So there was just the youth development, the health, and the animal husbandry kind of people.

[Assistant] And so you all trained together, that was in 1993. What did you say, was it was June that you gathered?

[User] Yeah, we, yeah, it started in June.

[Assistant] OK. And so tell us about your training program. What were the components? And where were you living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't even know then. I don't remember. But, um, the thing that stood out to me the most was that after the wedding, the wedding lunch or dinner, because I was the North American, they wanted to give me the best soup, the best chunk of soup or whatever. So they served me this soup with a chicken head looking at me. I went, oh geez, I can't eat this. So I just, I kept pushing the chicken head around in the soup. And, you know, kind of playing with it. And there was a man sitting next to me who obviously was watching what I was doing. And again, this is so early that my language was practically zip. And so he just looked at me and I looked at him and I picked up my bowl and I had this like quizzical expression on my face, like, would you like this soup? And he right away shook his head yes. So I gave him my soup and he gave me his soup and then we were fine.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] We traded soups. But I didn't watch him eat the soup.

[Assistant] You couldn't watch.

[User] I couldn't even watch him eat the chicken head. It wasn't going to happen.

[Assistant] But he did eat it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We traded soups. But I didn't watch him eat the soup.

[Assistant] You couldn't watch.

[User] I couldn't even watch him eat the chicken head. It wasn't going to happen.

[Assistant] But he did eat it?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, he did.

[Assistant] Well, probably it had a lot of nutrition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I couldn't even watch him eat the chicken head. It wasn't going to happen.

[Assistant] But he did eat it?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, he did.

[Assistant] Well, probably it had a lot of nutrition.

[User] You know, it's good protein and stuff. And you know, at the time, I didn't know that, you know, you don't waste anything, not a thing. And, you know, but I just said, well, OK, you can, I can do this. I kept saying to myself, I can do this, I can do this.

[Assistant] Any other memorable occasions about that wedding party, for example?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, he did.

[Assistant] Well, probably it had a lot of nutrition.

[User] You know, it's good protein and stuff. And you know, at the time, I didn't know that, you know, you don't waste anything, not a thing. And, you know, but I just said, well, OK, you can, I can do this. I kept saying to myself, I can do this, I can do this.

[Assistant] Any other memorable occasions about that wedding party, for example?

[User] Well, the only other thing that I remember is so traditionally in Ecuador, a wedding is a 24 hour event or more. Which I wasn't aware of. And even if they could have told me, I probably wouldn't have understood. So we go there and, you know, it's, I don't know, it's late, it's really late. And I'm like going, when are we going home? Well, there was no going home. And my quote parents, you know, realized that this was my first time out and I didn't, I was not up for it. So they found me a place. There was, we were somewhere near a clinic of some kind. And so they said, oh, we'll find you a place to lay down so you can just rest. So we went into this clinic and they put me on an examination table so I could sleep.

[Assistant] In the meantime, they were dancing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the only other thing that I remember is so traditionally in Ecuador, a wedding is a 24 hour event or more. Which I wasn't aware of. And even if they could have told me, I probably wouldn't have understood. So we go there and, you know, it's, I don't know, it's late, it's really late. And I'm like going, when are we going home? Well, there was no going home. And my quote parents, you know, realized that this was my first time out and I didn't, I was not up for it. So they found me a place. There was, we were somewhere near a clinic of some kind. And so they said, oh, we'll find you a place to lay down so you can just rest. So we went into this clinic and they put me on an examination table so I could sleep.

[Assistant] In the meantime, they were dancing.

[User] In the meantime, they were dancing. And you know, they pass the.

[Assistant] Aguardiente?

[User] The aguardiente. And it's one cup and everybody drinks out of the same cup. They just keep pouring it, you know?

[Assistant] How big was the cup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the meantime, they were dancing. And you know, they pass the.

[Assistant] Aguardiente?

[User] The aguardiente. And it's one cup and everybody drinks out of the same cup. They just keep pouring it, you know?

[Assistant] How big was the cup?

[User] The cups are like, you know, like little kid sized cups.

[Assistant] Like shot glasses?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cups are like, you know, like little kid sized cups.

[Assistant] Like shot glasses?

[User] No, they're a little bigger than that, but not like glass size, you know, maybe like eight ounce cups, like a Dixie cup.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah. So, you know, I just said, oh yeah, gracias, gracias. I've got to go somewhere to lay down. It wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was a little quieter. And, you know, I could turn the light out and just kind of rest. So.

[Assistant] So that was your night.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they're a little bigger than that, but not like glass size, you know, maybe like eight ounce cups, like a Dixie cup.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah. So, you know, I just said, oh yeah, gracias, gracias. I've got to go somewhere to lay down. It wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was a little quieter. And, you know, I could turn the light out and just kind of rest. So.

[Assistant] So that was your night.

[User] That was it.

[Assistant] And the next day, where they still partying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the next day they were, you know, they were dragging a little bit. But, you know, in the morning, then you start over with the leftovers from the night before and you have a big breakfast and then you go home.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] So that was that was my introduction to the Ecuadorian wedding culture.

[Assistant] And fiestas.

[User] And fiestas. Oh yeah, lots of those later. And those are serendipitous. Could happen any time.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they could go on for a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was that was my introduction to the Ecuadorian wedding culture.

[Assistant] And fiestas.

[User] And fiestas. Oh yeah, lots of those later. And those are serendipitous. Could happen any time.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they could go on for a long time.

[User] And they did. And they don't let you sit down a minute. You gotta dance and the dancing and the drinking thing, which I, you know, it was hard. You know, I was already in my forties. So I, you know, it was like, I'm not, you know, I'm not a young spring chicken here.

[Assistant] So let's go back a little bit more to the training part. How many hours a day did you spend learning Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And fiestas. Oh yeah, lots of those later. And those are serendipitous. Could happen any time.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they could go on for a long time.

[User] And they did. And they don't let you sit down a minute. You gotta dance and the dancing and the drinking thing, which I, you know, it was hard. You know, I was already in my forties. So I, you know, it was like, I'm not, you know, I'm not a young spring chicken here.

[Assistant] So let's go back a little bit more to the training part. How many hours a day did you spend learning Spanish?

[User] It was half of the day. So for, you know, we had like two classes a day, so I would say four hours.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you have other components of training, any kind of physical exercise or hiking or anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they did. And they don't let you sit down a minute. You gotta dance and the dancing and the drinking thing, which I, you know, it was hard. You know, I was already in my forties. So I, you know, it was like, I'm not, you know, I'm not a young spring chicken here.

[Assistant] So let's go back a little bit more to the training part. How many hours a day did you spend learning Spanish?

[User] It was half of the day. So for, you know, we had like two classes a day, so I would say four hours.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you have other components of training, any kind of physical exercise or hiking or anything like that?

[User] Not, no. Not anything formal. You know, because we were at somewhat of an altitude. So there was a lot of people who weren't used to altitude. It wasn't that bad. But you know, and we were walking back and forth to where we were staying in and the training center, so there wasn't anything formal for exercise. No.

[Assistant] And what about the people who, the other trainees who are in the health program, for example? How many were you in the health program and did you enjoy their company? Did you make friends or were you all sort of operating independently or?