[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish they had!

[Assistant] So you are making an important contribution, as a result ofyour work here with the agency?

[User] Well, I hope so, I plan to work on it; I am on chaptertwo ... to finish it. I want to make an important contribution to getting one ofmy bedrooms back! There are copies ofrecords stacked all over the place there!

[Assistant] OK, very good. So, going back to our list here, researcher interests and researcher demands are important here with the agency, ofcourse. How would you say that that has guided your work with the records; and you have mentioned the various guides that were published, and now we are entering into this digitization phase that the agency...

[User] Yes, indeed ...

[Assistant] So, can you expand on that a little bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Professor Ganzer told NACA about this. They said, “We like that, we’ll fund it,” so I went off the GI Bill and I went to work for University of Washington Aeronautical Lab. I did all this work, the model work and everything, under money from NACA. NACA, they were working with universities a lot. We had a wind tunnel.

[Assistant] This was done in the university wind tunnel, not NACA?

[User] Yes, this was done in a University of Washington wind tunnel, a Kirsten Wind Tunnel. This will give you an idea of how this thing was very complicated [referring to NACA Technical Note 2563, Experimental Investigation of Rolling Performance of Straight and Sweptback Flexible Wings with Various Ailerons], and I had to cut all these airfoils and build this all up. Being a model-builder, I loved doing it.

[Assistant] You did it all yourself, that’s great.

[User] Yes, I built this all myself. This shows in the wind tunnel, you can see how the wing is deflecting, here. We finished this project about the time that I was going to graduate, and in fact, we did finish it when I graduated. We sent the report to NACA, our write-up. [NACA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] was reviewing this. At the same time, I had graduated and I had received a telegram from Ames, offering me $4,600 a year as a GS-5 [General Schedule pay scale]. I had some other offers from North American [Aviation, Incorporated] that were much better, but since I had been in the military for five years, it meant I could get 30 days’ vacation if I went to Ames, and also, I liked this area. I had a softness in my heart for NACA. I came down here and I reported on January 1, 1951.

[Assistant] That must have been pretty amazing for you, reading those NACA reports when you were younger, in the library, and then having that published by the NACA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn’t offer me any jobs while Smitty was there. Honeywell, that’s one thing, you do all this work and you know it’s out there and they would ask you questions. I had the Learjet people come once, and we were down the hangar there, and they called us up to the Ad [Administration] Building here and they would ask us all these questions. On the Learjet, they had a thing where the stabilizer was fluttering. We figured out how to solve that. That was the thing about NACA, was that we were the source of the information, and the companies came to us to get this information. That was our job.

[Assistant] To do the research?

[User] Yes. These reports, I should mention that to put out a report like this, [Gerald E.] Nitzberg was the head of the editorial, and he set up editorial committees, and on the editorial committee, you had the author, and then you had an expert senior scientist on the field, as the chairman, and then they liked to get somebody in between, and then a junior, somebody just starting. The junior member would usually want to change the grammar, and then, of course, the others would question your mathematics and all that, and so forth. Editorial committees were a major, major thing. NACA just did not put out false information—everything had to be checked and rechecked.

[Assistant] How long did it take for a report this size, which is a pretty good-sized report?

[User] To publish? Sometimes, it’d take about a year before it was published. They were a little faster when it was confidential. Confidential reports were thinner. With this, this is a confidential report, here, and with this, parts of this were put out as thinner reports. Leading up to this would maybe be three or four reports.

[Assistant] The memorandums were smaller and then the note was the larger document, usually?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. These reports, I should mention that to put out a report like this, [Gerald E.] Nitzberg was the head of the editorial, and he set up editorial committees, and on the editorial committee, you had the author, and then you had an expert senior scientist on the field, as the chairman, and then they liked to get somebody in between, and then a junior, somebody just starting. The junior member would usually want to change the grammar, and then, of course, the others would question your mathematics and all that, and so forth. Editorial committees were a major, major thing. NACA just did not put out false information—everything had to be checked and rechecked.

[Assistant] How long did it take for a report this size, which is a pretty good-sized report?

[User] To publish? Sometimes, it’d take about a year before it was published. They were a little faster when it was confidential. Confidential reports were thinner. With this, this is a confidential report, here, and with this, parts of this were put out as thinner reports. Leading up to this would maybe be three or four reports.

[Assistant] The memorandums were smaller and then the note was the larger document, usually?

[User] Yes. One of the comments I got one time was they wanted my appendix. There was an MIT professor that wrote a paper on my Appendix A [NACA Technical Note 4147, Measure D and Predicted Dynamic Response Characteristics of a Flexible Airplane to Elevator Control over a Frequency Range Including Three Structural Modes], only he didn’t know it. He did it independently. Somebody said, “Hey, that is just like your Appendix A.” I thought, “Oh, wow, that’s nice.” [Appendices A, B, and C derive equations of motion in matrix algebra including three structural modes.]

[Assistant] At least you had your work validated, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To publish? Sometimes, it’d take about a year before it was published. They were a little faster when it was confidential. Confidential reports were thinner. With this, this is a confidential report, here, and with this, parts of this were put out as thinner reports. Leading up to this would maybe be three or four reports.

[Assistant] The memorandums were smaller and then the note was the larger document, usually?

[User] Yes. One of the comments I got one time was they wanted my appendix. There was an MIT professor that wrote a paper on my Appendix A [NACA Technical Note 4147, Measure D and Predicted Dynamic Response Characteristics of a Flexible Airplane to Elevator Control over a Frequency Range Including Three Structural Modes], only he didn’t know it. He did it independently. Somebody said, “Hey, that is just like your Appendix A.” I thought, “Oh, wow, that’s nice.” [Appendices A, B, and C derive equations of motion in matrix algebra including three structural modes.]

[Assistant] At least you had your work validated, didn’t you?

[User] We were ahead of him.

[Assistant] We were talking about the length of time that it took for that B-47 project. It was quite a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One of the comments I got one time was they wanted my appendix. There was an MIT professor that wrote a paper on my Appendix A [NACA Technical Note 4147, Measure D and Predicted Dynamic Response Characteristics of a Flexible Airplane to Elevator Control over a Frequency Range Including Three Structural Modes], only he didn’t know it. He did it independently. Somebody said, “Hey, that is just like your Appendix A.” I thought, “Oh, wow, that’s nice.” [Appendices A, B, and C derive equations of motion in matrix algebra including three structural modes.]

[Assistant] At least you had your work validated, didn’t you?

[User] We were ahead of him.

[Assistant] We were talking about the length of time that it took for that B-47 project. It was quite a long time.

[User] Actually, we just finished it in 1957, and about that time, there was talk of they were going to form NASA. They were talking about moving the flight research to Edwards. I really didn’t like that because I had been to Edwards so many times, and part of that was one time, at Edwards, they had a lot of guys lived in Hollister, [California], which was about 15 miles, 20 miles away, but a lot of the junior engineers lived in a Quonset hut out on the desert. I was down there for a month one time.

[Assistant] It’s a little warm down there, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were ahead of him.

[Assistant] We were talking about the length of time that it took for that B-47 project. It was quite a long time.

[User] Actually, we just finished it in 1957, and about that time, there was talk of they were going to form NASA. They were talking about moving the flight research to Edwards. I really didn’t like that because I had been to Edwards so many times, and part of that was one time, at Edwards, they had a lot of guys lived in Hollister, [California], which was about 15 miles, 20 miles away, but a lot of the junior engineers lived in a Quonset hut out on the desert. I was down there for a month one time.

[Assistant] It’s a little warm down there, isn’t it?

[User] The desert is dreadful. When the sandstorms start, it takes the paint off their cars. The other thing that disturbed me was that all of the guys that are working out there, in college, I was one of the top ping-pong players at UW, and practically all those guys could beat me. I went down there, all they did was every night, the only thing they did was play ping-pong.

[Assistant] They didn’t have anything else to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, we just finished it in 1957, and about that time, there was talk of they were going to form NASA. They were talking about moving the flight research to Edwards. I really didn’t like that because I had been to Edwards so many times, and part of that was one time, at Edwards, they had a lot of guys lived in Hollister, [California], which was about 15 miles, 20 miles away, but a lot of the junior engineers lived in a Quonset hut out on the desert. I was down there for a month one time.

[Assistant] It’s a little warm down there, isn’t it?

[User] The desert is dreadful. When the sandstorms start, it takes the paint off their cars. The other thing that disturbed me was that all of the guys that are working out there, in college, I was one of the top ping-pong players at UW, and practically all those guys could beat me. I went down there, all they did was every night, the only thing they did was play ping-pong.

[Assistant] They didn’t have anything else to do.

[User] Yes, there was nothing to do. It’s not the greatest place to work. That’s when I decided, they said they were going to move down to Edwards, and that’s when I made a move. I moved to structural dynamics here, and I don’t know if Glenn [Bugos, Ames historian] gave you a copy of my book?

[Assistant] No. He mentioned that you had a book, but no, I don’t have a copy of it. I think he was supposed to leave it in his office this morning, and then we couldn’t get in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The desert is dreadful. When the sandstorms start, it takes the paint off their cars. The other thing that disturbed me was that all of the guys that are working out there, in college, I was one of the top ping-pong players at UW, and practically all those guys could beat me. I went down there, all they did was every night, the only thing they did was play ping-pong.

[Assistant] They didn’t have anything else to do.

[User] Yes, there was nothing to do. It’s not the greatest place to work. That’s when I decided, they said they were going to move down to Edwards, and that’s when I made a move. I moved to structural dynamics here, and I don’t know if Glenn [Bugos, Ames historian] gave you a copy of my book?

[Assistant] No. He mentioned that you had a book, but no, I don’t have a copy of it. I think he was supposed to leave it in his office this morning, and then we couldn’t get in there.

[User] That comes later. The other thing down there was I stayed at a motel one time and they said, “Be sure you get a heated pool.” Why do that? The desert is very dry, and I went out and dove in the pool, and I almost froze to death. It was cold—can you imagine, you’re out in the desert and all that heat, and you got to have a heated pool because the evaporation, the humidity is practically zero.

[Assistant] How did you fly back and forth? On what kind of plane did they fly you back and forth when you were working on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was nothing to do. It’s not the greatest place to work. That’s when I decided, they said they were going to move down to Edwards, and that’s when I made a move. I moved to structural dynamics here, and I don’t know if Glenn [Bugos, Ames historian] gave you a copy of my book?

[Assistant] No. He mentioned that you had a book, but no, I don’t have a copy of it. I think he was supposed to leave it in his office this morning, and then we couldn’t get in there.

[User] That comes later. The other thing down there was I stayed at a motel one time and they said, “Be sure you get a heated pool.” Why do that? The desert is very dry, and I went out and dove in the pool, and I almost froze to death. It was cold—can you imagine, you’re out in the desert and all that heat, and you got to have a heated pool because the evaporation, the humidity is practically zero.

[Assistant] How did you fly back and forth? On what kind of plane did they fly you back and forth when you were working on that?

[User] That was a C-47, or it was a DC-3. George Cooper did most of the flying, but there was [William H. "Bill"] McAvoy and Larry Clousing, and they used to fly us back and forth. I don’t know how much I can say about the flight research. Would you like to hear about any of the other projects?

[Assistant] Sure. You mentioned, like 1957-58, and that transition, if you want to just talk about that transition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That comes later. The other thing down there was I stayed at a motel one time and they said, “Be sure you get a heated pool.” Why do that? The desert is very dry, and I went out and dove in the pool, and I almost froze to death. It was cold—can you imagine, you’re out in the desert and all that heat, and you got to have a heated pool because the evaporation, the humidity is practically zero.

[Assistant] How did you fly back and forth? On what kind of plane did they fly you back and forth when you were working on that?

[User] That was a C-47, or it was a DC-3. George Cooper did most of the flying, but there was [William H. "Bill"] McAvoy and Larry Clousing, and they used to fly us back and forth. I don’t know how much I can say about the flight research. Would you like to hear about any of the other projects?

[Assistant] Sure. You mentioned, like 1957-58, and that transition, if you want to just talk about that transition?

[User] This project was wound up just about the time NASA formed. I was giving talks. I don’t know, if you wanted, I have an extra copy of this if you want it.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and then we quickly took it down and took it out, and they slammed the doors on us. One hour. I don’t know what they had in there, but they had something they didn’t want out in the open. That completed the B-47 project, and it’s all these reports out there. We had reported to the IAS [Institute of the Aeronautical Sciences]. Have you had anybody talk about the tri-annual inspections?

[Assistant] We’ve had some people mention them, but it looks like you have some documents there.

[User] This was 1955, and we flew the airplane up here, and it was part of the display. I’ll let you have this.

[Assistant] Are you sure?

[User] Sure. I have a couple of them, here.

[Assistant] We can send them back to you if you’d like to have them back. That’s not a problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was 1955, and we flew the airplane up here, and it was part of the display. I’ll let you have this.

[Assistant] Are you sure?

[User] Sure. I have a couple of them, here.

[Assistant] We can send them back to you if you’d like to have them back. That’s not a problem.

[User] I don’t know—I got so much stuff, and I have a lot of this. One of these, I think I have several copies. We had a talk that went with this. Everybody around the Center here, they had talks they gave and congressmen showed up, and then you had people from industry. You’ve probably heard about the inspection?

[Assistant] Yes, that they would have a lot of times, celebrities or famous people would come through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I have a couple of them, here.

[Assistant] We can send them back to you if you’d like to have them back. That’s not a problem.

[User] I don’t know—I got so much stuff, and I have a lot of this. One of these, I think I have several copies. We had a talk that went with this. Everybody around the Center here, they had talks they gave and congressmen showed up, and then you had people from industry. You’ve probably heard about the inspection?

[Assistant] Yes, that they would have a lot of times, celebrities or famous people would come through.

[User] All kinds of people. I think [Henry J. E.] Reid was the Director of Langley. Yes, Reid was the Director. We made a model when we had it on springs and we have a driver and we’d oscillate it and the wings flap and so forth. It was kind of neat, but I don’t think it’s shown in here. The airplane was here, and the wings from push-down to pull-up, the wingtips would flex 16 feet, from pull-down to push-up. The figure you usually hear quoted is 5 feet, but that’s not in the extreme maneuvers that we were doing.\n\n This is Ames, and this shows Ames is mostly high-speed. Here’s your project. Some of the things we do in wind tunnels, this vapor screen. I never did see one of those, but it’s something, you can see the vortices and everything. We had things like a shadowgraph, where you can see the turbulence, and of course, shock waves. The 14-foot transonic wind tunnel was where I went in structural dynamics, and that’s what my book is on. That was what was put out for the tri-annual inspection.

[Assistant] All the different projects that were presented, did they all make these books, or was this something that y’all decided to do on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All kinds of people. I think [Henry J. E.] Reid was the Director of Langley. Yes, Reid was the Director. We made a model when we had it on springs and we have a driver and we’d oscillate it and the wings flap and so forth. It was kind of neat, but I don’t think it’s shown in here. The airplane was here, and the wings from push-down to pull-up, the wingtips would flex 16 feet, from pull-down to push-up. The figure you usually hear quoted is 5 feet, but that’s not in the extreme maneuvers that we were doing.\n\n This is Ames, and this shows Ames is mostly high-speed. Here’s your project. Some of the things we do in wind tunnels, this vapor screen. I never did see one of those, but it’s something, you can see the vortices and everything. We had things like a shadowgraph, where you can see the turbulence, and of course, shock waves. The 14-foot transonic wind tunnel was where I went in structural dynamics, and that’s what my book is on. That was what was put out for the tri-annual inspection.

[Assistant] All the different projects that were presented, did they all make these books, or was this something that y’all decided to do on that?

[User] I think there were more than that around—more talk. Every branch had a talk. Some of them had displays. For the congressmen and all the other people that showed up, everything was straightforward. The last day, we had one for just the Ames people, and so we all got to go around and see all the displays. What we did, we hammed it up.

[Assistant] You had more fun on that last day?

[User] Yes, it was a fun deal, and it was full of laughs. With ours, we put a squeaker on our flexible airplane, and it went, “Squeak,” like a squeaky door.

[Assistant] You stayed with NASA, right, when the transition happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there were more than that around—more talk. Every branch had a talk. Some of them had displays. For the congressmen and all the other people that showed up, everything was straightforward. The last day, we had one for just the Ames people, and so we all got to go around and see all the displays. What we did, we hammed it up.

[Assistant] You had more fun on that last day?

[User] Yes, it was a fun deal, and it was full of laughs. With ours, we put a squeaker on our flexible airplane, and it went, “Squeak,” like a squeaky door.

[Assistant] You stayed with NASA, right, when the transition happened?

[User] Yes. I wanted to stay at Ames, and I thought that flight research was moving. Flight research developed into—they started developing simulators. Most of the guys I know that stayed with flight worked on simulators. Have you ever seen a simulator? Okay, you’ve been on one where you fly?

[Assistant] I haven’t really been on them, but I’ve seen them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a fun deal, and it was full of laughs. With ours, we put a squeaker on our flexible airplane, and it went, “Squeak,” like a squeaky door.

[Assistant] You stayed with NASA, right, when the transition happened?

[User] Yes. I wanted to stay at Ames, and I thought that flight research was moving. Flight research developed into—they started developing simulators. Most of the guys I know that stayed with flight worked on simulators. Have you ever seen a simulator? Okay, you’ve been on one where you fly?

[Assistant] I haven’t really been on them, but I’ve seen them.

[User] That was the thing—Ames had a 4-degree freedom simulator down here, and everybody who came here wanted to fly on it. When I was here, I have had a committee I was running, and everybody wanted to fly the simulator. You can set up different airports. I really don’t know that much about it.

[Assistant] You switched and you went to a different area, though, when NASA took over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I wanted to stay at Ames, and I thought that flight research was moving. Flight research developed into—they started developing simulators. Most of the guys I know that stayed with flight worked on simulators. Have you ever seen a simulator? Okay, you’ve been on one where you fly?

[Assistant] I haven’t really been on them, but I’ve seen them.

[User] That was the thing—Ames had a 4-degree freedom simulator down here, and everybody who came here wanted to fly on it. When I was here, I have had a committee I was running, and everybody wanted to fly the simulator. You can set up different airports. I really don’t know that much about it.

[Assistant] You switched and you went to a different area, though, when NASA took over?

[User] I went to structural dynamics, and that’s a longer story than this. That’s right up to today. It wasn’t all at Ames. The other thing at Ames, we had a baseball team, we played football, we had a ski club. This area is so great for recreation, and I did a lot of skiing. I skied almost every weekend. Friday night, we’d drive up to Dodge Ridge, which is fairly close, here, about a 2 ½ -hour drive. Ski in a weekend, and come back Sunday night.

[Assistant] There were a lot of activities that involved the families, too, I would assume, during the NACA time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the thing—Ames had a 4-degree freedom simulator down here, and everybody who came here wanted to fly on it. When I was here, I have had a committee I was running, and everybody wanted to fly the simulator. You can set up different airports. I really don’t know that much about it.

[Assistant] You switched and you went to a different area, though, when NASA took over?

[User] I went to structural dynamics, and that’s a longer story than this. That’s right up to today. It wasn’t all at Ames. The other thing at Ames, we had a baseball team, we played football, we had a ski club. This area is so great for recreation, and I did a lot of skiing. I skied almost every weekend. Friday night, we’d drive up to Dodge Ridge, which is fairly close, here, about a 2 ½ -hour drive. Ski in a weekend, and come back Sunday night.

[Assistant] There were a lot of activities that involved the families, too, I would assume, during the NACA time.

[User] Yes, we had picnics, and of course, the individual branches, we had annual parties. With NACA, I was a bachelor, so actually, I did things like I toured Europe. My model airplanes, I was on the US team that flew the world champs in Germany, and so I went to Germany and then I toured Europe. I bought a Mercedes. Is this being recorded?

[Assistant] Yes. It’s okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had picnics, and of course, the individual branches, we had annual parties. With NACA, I was a bachelor, so actually, I did things like I toured Europe. My model airplanes, I was on the US team that flew the world champs in Germany, and so I went to Germany and then I toured Europe. I bought a Mercedes. Is this being recorded?

[Assistant] Yes. It’s okay.

[User] Okay. There was one time at Ames where they were short of funds, so I said, “Okay, can I have six weeks’ leave without pay?” They said sure. I spent six weeks touring Europe, and I was writing articles on model airplanes for a German magazine. They showed me around and helped me buy a used Mercedes. I bought this Mercedes 190 for $1,600. It was a sedan, and it was a used car. It was two years old. They took me there. Alfried Gymnich was the editor of Der Flugmodellbau, and he took me to this place. The Germans are very precise about everything, and they have all these used cars, there. They call them pre-owned, now. I looked at this one and he had a price on it, I asked him, “What should I bid on it?” He didn’t understand. I said, “In the U.S., we buy a car, we offer them a little less.” He said, “How can you do that? That’s what it’s worth.”

[Assistant] There’s no haggling, huh?

[User] He said, “If you want another, I got another car.”

[Assistant] How did you get the car back here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. There was one time at Ames where they were short of funds, so I said, “Okay, can I have six weeks’ leave without pay?” They said sure. I spent six weeks touring Europe, and I was writing articles on model airplanes for a German magazine. They showed me around and helped me buy a used Mercedes. I bought this Mercedes 190 for $1,600. It was a sedan, and it was a used car. It was two years old. They took me there. Alfried Gymnich was the editor of Der Flugmodellbau, and he took me to this place. The Germans are very precise about everything, and they have all these used cars, there. They call them pre-owned, now. I looked at this one and he had a price on it, I asked him, “What should I bid on it?” He didn’t understand. I said, “In the U.S., we buy a car, we offer them a little less.” He said, “How can you do that? That’s what it’s worth.”

[Assistant] There’s no haggling, huh?

[User] He said, “If you want another, I got another car.”

[Assistant] How did you get the car back here?

[User] They just put it on a ship. There was a little seawater that got into mine. Wasn’t too bad. They deliver them up in San Francisco, in a warehouse, and you show up and you have to get it started. You have to put the liquids in and everything. I had this little 190, and I still have it. Later on, when I got married, we went on our honeymoon in our Mercedes. I didn’t get married until we were in NASA. My wife won’t let me sell it—there are a lot of people that want to buy it. It’s sitting in my front yard now, but I drive a [Toyota] Prius.

[Assistant] A little more practical.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He said, “If you want another, I got another car.”

[Assistant] How did you get the car back here?

[User] They just put it on a ship. There was a little seawater that got into mine. Wasn’t too bad. They deliver them up in San Francisco, in a warehouse, and you show up and you have to get it started. You have to put the liquids in and everything. I had this little 190, and I still have it. Later on, when I got married, we went on our honeymoon in our Mercedes. I didn’t get married until we were in NASA. My wife won’t let me sell it—there are a lot of people that want to buy it. It’s sitting in my front yard now, but I drive a [Toyota] Prius.

[Assistant] A little more practical.

[User] My kids learned to drive in this Mercedes 190. It’s got a couple of hundred thousand miles on it.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine by now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They just put it on a ship. There was a little seawater that got into mine. Wasn’t too bad. They deliver them up in San Francisco, in a warehouse, and you show up and you have to get it started. You have to put the liquids in and everything. I had this little 190, and I still have it. Later on, when I got married, we went on our honeymoon in our Mercedes. I didn’t get married until we were in NASA. My wife won’t let me sell it—there are a lot of people that want to buy it. It’s sitting in my front yard now, but I drive a [Toyota] Prius.

[Assistant] A little more practical.

[User] My kids learned to drive in this Mercedes 190. It’s got a couple of hundred thousand miles on it.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine by now.

[User] We used to give talks, here.

[Assistant] You mentioned that, that you did that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My kids learned to drive in this Mercedes 190. It’s got a couple of hundred thousand miles on it.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine by now.

[User] We used to give talks, here.

[Assistant] You mentioned that, that you did that.

[User] I was giving a talk in the auditorium over here on a B-47, and in NACA, you prepared a talk and all these slides, and then you memorized it. You had to memorize it, and then we had all these rehearsals. Smith J. would be over there, listening to me, and Harry Goett, and of course, all your buddies and everybody. You would rehearse in front of them. I was giving this talk, and then you come in, when you’re ready to give it at the conference, and here’s this auditorium full of all scientists, most of them with foreign accents, which makes the question period rather difficult. I’m going through my talk, and I had it memorized. The trouble with memorizing is that you kind of go along and you’re doing it by rote, and you’re not thinking. I’m going along and this slide came up.\n\n I introduced the slide and I was talking about introducing a slide. I had this slide that came up on the thing, and I looked up there, and it was the wrong slide. Then, I looked down at Harry Goett, our division chief, he was twitching in his chair. I looked over at DeFrance, and DeFrance was kind of wondering what I was going to do. Then, I realized what I had done—I had skipped, in my talk, a little section, and I had introduced the slide following that one. I said, “Next slide,” so then the right slide came up. It turned out to be a terrific deal because the first question that came up on my talk was what the slide that I had skipped.

[Assistant] What is was about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used to give talks, here.

[Assistant] You mentioned that, that you did that.

[User] I was giving a talk in the auditorium over here on a B-47, and in NACA, you prepared a talk and all these slides, and then you memorized it. You had to memorize it, and then we had all these rehearsals. Smith J. would be over there, listening to me, and Harry Goett, and of course, all your buddies and everybody. You would rehearse in front of them. I was giving this talk, and then you come in, when you’re ready to give it at the conference, and here’s this auditorium full of all scientists, most of them with foreign accents, which makes the question period rather difficult. I’m going through my talk, and I had it memorized. The trouble with memorizing is that you kind of go along and you’re doing it by rote, and you’re not thinking. I’m going along and this slide came up.\n\n I introduced the slide and I was talking about introducing a slide. I had this slide that came up on the thing, and I looked up there, and it was the wrong slide. Then, I looked down at Harry Goett, our division chief, he was twitching in his chair. I looked over at DeFrance, and DeFrance was kind of wondering what I was going to do. Then, I realized what I had done—I had skipped, in my talk, a little section, and I had introduced the slide following that one. I said, “Next slide,” so then the right slide came up. It turned out to be a terrific deal because the first question that came up on my talk was what the slide that I had skipped.

[Assistant] What is was about?

[User] Yes, they asked about that, so it was slide number seven, as I remember. I said, “Could you put up slide number seven?” Then, I answered the question.

[Assistant] You covered it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they asked about that, so it was slide number seven, as I remember. I said, “Could you put up slide number seven?” Then, I answered the question.

[Assistant] You covered it.

[User] You’re up there and suddenly, fortunately, I got through that one. That’s enough on the talks, I guess, but the talks I gave for IAS and so forth went very well. Those weren’t as complicated. Some of the talks we gave, memorizing was difficult.

[Assistant] I could imagine because it’s very detailed information. A lot of technical information.

[User] When you have a lot of slides, it’s harder to memorize. Memorizing is not my good points.

[Assistant] Did you ever work on anything here at Ames after it changed to NASA, and then the whole build-up for the space program? Did you work on any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody got up, and every Ph.D., they had all these things, they were ready to get all these contracts. I had one that was different than everybody else, but I’m sure they went back and figured out a way to do that.

[Assistant] When you went around to all those different places, what were you looking for? What were you and John Houbolt looking for?

[User] We wrote a report—and I don’t know where it is; I couldn’t find it—and we told what the manufacturers could do for us. NASA eventually did that. Everything was contracted out. Our machine shop, contracted out their stuff, our machinists began writing specs [specifications] and stuff like that. The model shop gradually faded away. To get anything done, you had to write specs and have somebody do it for you, and it delayed everything. That was a part of what was so good about NACA, was that we did everything in-house here. When I wanted a model or something, I would go over to the model shop and I’d talk to the guys who were doing it, and while they were building the thing, I would go over there and we would talk. If they had a problem, we would figure it out. It was real quick. You didn’t have to write a bunch of specs and so forth. The people they had at the Center here were very, very good. A lot of that carried over into NASA. A lot of the same people were here. The model shop, for example, I had them building space vehicles. We can talk about it separate—that wouldn’t be into this. That’s a real long story.

[Assistant] If you promised your wife you’d be home by 11:30, we probably don’t have time to talk about it.

[User] Yes. I pretty well wrapped it up. I can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] How long did you stay with NASA? When did you retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I pretty well wrapped it up. I can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] How long did you stay with NASA? When did you retire?

[User] I left NASA in 1971. I was here 20 years. Under [President Richard M.] Nixon, NASA went through a restructuring. It turned out that we had a structural dynamics branch here, and Langley had a structural dynamics division, so to cut out duplication, they cut our branch. They offered me a job to do the B-1 bomber, but I had a hot project. I used to work with Headquarters, and they had the money for me to continue my work. I went to Nielsen Engineering [& Research, Inc.], and I got a contract from Ames to do what I was doing, continue my work. That worked out very well. I’ve written a book on what came out of that.

[Assistant] You got to work on what you wanted to work on, but just as a contractor instead of a federal employee?

[User] That was the thing, that many engineers would come here and talk to me, they’d say, “How do you get to do all this and finish and get a report and everything?” A lot of them would say, “I get started on a project and the finances drop out and they cut it off.” Here, they just let you go, as long as you had the ideas, and you could finish. It was up to you to decide it was time to quit.

[Assistant] During the NACA times?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the thing, that many engineers would come here and talk to me, they’d say, “How do you get to do all this and finish and get a report and everything?” A lot of them would say, “I get started on a project and the finances drop out and they cut it off.” Here, they just let you go, as long as you had the ideas, and you could finish. It was up to you to decide it was time to quit.

[Assistant] During the NACA times?

[User] Yes. That’s what I decided with Randomdec, which was a patent at NASA, and I went out and developed that. I’m still working on it—I wrote my book, and at 92 years old, I published my book [Randomdec in Retrospect: Including new information on triggering].

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] Yes. It’s now on Amazon, and it’s sold throughout Europe. I’m working on Volume II. That’s a long story. I’ll show you that when we’re through with the—yes.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t mentioned about NACA that you have there on your notes that you wanted to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That’s what I decided with Randomdec, which was a patent at NASA, and I went out and developed that. I’m still working on it—I wrote my book, and at 92 years old, I published my book [Randomdec in Retrospect: Including new information on triggering].

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] Yes. It’s now on Amazon, and it’s sold throughout Europe. I’m working on Volume II. That’s a long story. I’ll show you that when we’re through with the—yes.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t mentioned about NACA that you have there on your notes that you wanted to talk about?

[User] The problem with this, I didn’t get to rehearse it.

[Assistant] It’s fine. You’ve done great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It’s now on Amazon, and it’s sold throughout Europe. I’m working on Volume II. That’s a long story. I’ll show you that when we’re through with the—yes.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t mentioned about NACA that you have there on your notes that you wanted to talk about?

[User] The problem with this, I didn’t get to rehearse it.

[Assistant] It’s fine. You’ve done great.

[User] Last night, I started thinking about doing more on that, how I was working for NACA before I even got here. I was lucky to get a quick start that way. I probably left something out, here. There were so many wonderful people I had, who I worked with. There are all the reports and scientific advances. Did I mention, one thing they told me—and I think it’s in this NACA and You—have you seen that one?

[Assistant] I haven’t seen that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was asked before they announced the crew did I have any problem with it. They obviously wanted to see if there was a personality conflict, and I said, "Absolutely not."\n\n It's kind of funny, Mr. [George W. S.] Abbey used to tell the crews they'd been selected. I had gone over to Mr. Abbey's office earlier, and the crew was given a notice to report to his office. When you got a call to Mr. Abbey's office, you were never quite sure why you were going. You hope it's good. But as I heard this story from them, they just happened to all arrive at the elevator at the same time, you know. As soon as the elevator doors closed, they looked at each other and said, "Yippee!" Because they had figured out kind of what it was going to be for, you know.

[Assistant] When you have a group of that many folks, and all in the astronaut corps, it should be a little giveaway there. That's good. That's good. Well, it sounds like it was a good team that all came together, and things did go very well on the mission.

[User] Yes, the flight went really well. I don't remember, did I discuss the plumbing problem we had?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well, I think I told you about the first try at launch and we had the pad abort.

[Assistant] Actually, I don't think we had gotten that far.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got a big laugh about that.

[Assistant] You certainly did have some interesting times for this mission, but it did all work out pretty well.

[User] It worked out real well. We had an uneventful landing, and we filmed some of the IMAX movie on our flight, The Dream is Alive. Fortunately I made a good landing and hit the spot. That was when Cronkite says something about landing on the spot.

[Assistant] Well, you'd certainly trained enough for it to make sure that you did, I'm sure.

[User] Well, really, you don't try to hit the spot. You want to make a good landing and get the orbiter down. Your setup is hopefully going to get you close, I mean, obviously, but the landing process itself, you take what you get. I just lucked out and landed right on the spot. Even though I'd set up for it, there's no guarantee. You're going to get the little wind variations and slight variation in touchdown speed. You know, you might miss it.

[Assistant] Well, you landed right on the mark, so all went well there. After this mission, of course, you came back and went through some post-mission activities and such. But then with a pretty short turnaround, you were assigned to 61-A, which in light of what you were talking about here with organizing several people for the bathroom and activities like that, 61-A had actually eight crew members on board. That was a pretty full mission. If you could tell us some about that with the assignment for the crew, and this was a very unique mission, Spacelab, and it was oriented with the German side of things. If you could tell us about some of the early parts of assigning the crews, and beginning the training, and then we'll kind of work through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were ready to go to Houston. It would be like it was at Edwards Air Force Base testing machines.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about the training that you underwent as an AsCan [Astronaut Candidate] when you arrived here.

[User] I really enjoyed listening to the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo crews brief us on their space missions.

[Assistant] How neat.

[User] Yes, that was like really neat. At that time, it was like wow, you get to sit here and listen to these people you heard about a long time ago who flew these missions. I thought that was really neat. I also enjoyed traveling with my astronaut group.

[Assistant] I also understand that your class was called the Needless Nineteen. Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really enjoyed listening to the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo crews brief us on their space missions.

[Assistant] How neat.

[User] Yes, that was like really neat. At that time, it was like wow, you get to sit here and listen to these people you heard about a long time ago who flew these missions. I thought that was really neat. I also enjoyed traveling with my astronaut group.

[Assistant] I also understand that your class was called the Needless Nineteen. Do you recall that?

[User] No, I don’t. Who told you that?

[Assistant] Dave [David C.] Leestma.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was like really neat. At that time, it was like wow, you get to sit here and listen to these people you heard about a long time ago who flew these missions. I thought that was really neat. I also enjoyed traveling with my astronaut group.

[Assistant] I also understand that your class was called the Needless Nineteen. Do you recall that?

[User] No, I don’t. Who told you that?

[Assistant] Dave [David C.] Leestma.

[User] Dave Leestma? Did you talk to him? He’s a good guy. Whatever he tells you is good. He’s one of the finest human beings I’ve ever known. Dave Leestma. I really like him. Haven’t seen him in a long time.

[Assistant] He’s still over at JSC, as far as I know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t. Who told you that?

[Assistant] Dave [David C.] Leestma.

[User] Dave Leestma? Did you talk to him? He’s a good guy. Whatever he tells you is good. He’s one of the finest human beings I’ve ever known. Dave Leestma. I really like him. Haven’t seen him in a long time.

[Assistant] He’s still over at JSC, as far as I know.

[User] He’s a fantastic human being. He’s going straight to heaven when he dies. I think he’s the only man I can say that about. He will spend less than one second in purgatory. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That’s a nice compliment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dave Leestma? Did you talk to him? He’s a good guy. Whatever he tells you is good. He’s one of the finest human beings I’ve ever known. Dave Leestma. I really like him. Haven’t seen him in a long time.

[Assistant] He’s still over at JSC, as far as I know.

[User] He’s a fantastic human being. He’s going straight to heaven when he dies. I think he’s the only man I can say that about. He will spend less than one second in purgatory. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That’s a nice compliment.

[User] He’s really a nice man.

[Assistant] Any other anecdotes or stories you recall from training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s a fantastic human being. He’s going straight to heaven when he dies. I think he’s the only man I can say that about. He will spend less than one second in purgatory. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That’s a nice compliment.

[User] He’s really a nice man.

[Assistant] Any other anecdotes or stories you recall from training?

[User] No, not really. I mean, we did our normal study, and we liked it. Everybody was happy. It was a lot of fun. I mean, I don’t remember any particular things. I remember Bill [William F.] Fisher always had a lot of good jokes that he would tell. On our trips he was always telling some kind of doctor jokes. Have you ever heard doctor jokes? You’re a doctor, but not a medical doctor.

[Assistant] Yes, not a medical doctor. He’s a medical doctor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I mean, we did our normal study, and we liked it. Everybody was happy. It was a lot of fun. I mean, I don’t remember any particular things. I remember Bill [William F.] Fisher always had a lot of good jokes that he would tell. On our trips he was always telling some kind of doctor jokes. Have you ever heard doctor jokes? You’re a doctor, but not a medical doctor.

[Assistant] Yes, not a medical doctor. He’s a medical doctor.

[User] What area are you a doctor in?

[Assistant] In history.

[User] In history. If you have a bunch of history doctors together, do you all have some doctor jokes?

[Assistant] I don’t think so. I think they’re mainly about students and grades and things like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What area are you a doctor in?

[Assistant] In history.

[User] In history. If you have a bunch of history doctors together, do you all have some doctor jokes?

[Assistant] I don’t think so. I think they’re mainly about students and grades and things like that.

[User] Medical doctors, man, I couldn’t believe listening to Bill Fisher and some of his stories. Are you going to interview him?

[Assistant] He’s on our list.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In history. If you have a bunch of history doctors together, do you all have some doctor jokes?

[Assistant] I don’t think so. I think they’re mainly about students and grades and things like that.

[User] Medical doctors, man, I couldn’t believe listening to Bill Fisher and some of his stories. Are you going to interview him?

[Assistant] He’s on our list.

[User] You could tell him when you see him, just say that John said you had some very interesting medical doctor jokes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him if he’ll put that on the record.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Medical doctors, man, I couldn’t believe listening to Bill Fisher and some of his stories. Are you going to interview him?

[Assistant] He’s on our list.

[User] You could tell him when you see him, just say that John said you had some very interesting medical doctor jokes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him if he’ll put that on the record.

[User] Okay, that’s all. So I remember Bill Fisher’s jokes. But the most important thing was being able to sit and listen to an Apollo astronaut crew tell you about their mission. I thought it was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Very. You were onsite when STS-1 launched. Did you have any responsibilities for the mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could tell him when you see him, just say that John said you had some very interesting medical doctor jokes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him if he’ll put that on the record.

[User] Okay, that’s all. So I remember Bill Fisher’s jokes. But the most important thing was being able to sit and listen to an Apollo astronaut crew tell you about their mission. I thought it was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Very. You were onsite when STS-1 launched. Did you have any responsibilities for the mission?

[User] STS-1; what was I doing? We all were doing different little things. What was I doing? Oh, I was down at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] helping out in the family area, and the only reason I remember, now that you say that—I thought I wasn’t going to remember for a minute—but the only reason I remember is because I remember on the loudspeaker, “Joe [H.] Engle is now making another pass in his T-38 to make sure that the runway is safe.” So I had to be down there if I was hearing that. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So what were you doing with the family at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, that’s all. So I remember Bill Fisher’s jokes. But the most important thing was being able to sit and listen to an Apollo astronaut crew tell you about their mission. I thought it was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Very. You were onsite when STS-1 launched. Did you have any responsibilities for the mission?

[User] STS-1; what was I doing? We all were doing different little things. What was I doing? Oh, I was down at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] helping out in the family area, and the only reason I remember, now that you say that—I thought I wasn’t going to remember for a minute—but the only reason I remember is because I remember on the loudspeaker, “Joe [H.] Engle is now making another pass in his T-38 to make sure that the runway is safe.” So I had to be down there if I was hearing that. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So what were you doing with the family at that point?

[User] I was called an extended family escort.

[Assistant] Did you get to see the launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] STS-1; what was I doing? We all were doing different little things. What was I doing? Oh, I was down at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] helping out in the family area, and the only reason I remember, now that you say that—I thought I wasn’t going to remember for a minute—but the only reason I remember is because I remember on the loudspeaker, “Joe [H.] Engle is now making another pass in his T-38 to make sure that the runway is safe.” So I had to be down there if I was hearing that. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So what were you doing with the family at that point?

[User] I was called an extended family escort.

[Assistant] Did you get to see the launch?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was called an extended family escort.

[Assistant] Did you get to see the launch?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think?

[User] Oh, I thought it was pretty incredible. I mean, anytime you went down there and saw even the vehicle and climbed in the vehicle, you were pretty excited, thinking, “So when do I get on? Why are these guys wearing glasses launching in the Space Shuttle? They’re old.” That’s what I was really thinking. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I’m glad you’re sharing this stuff with us. I understand you worked on the Orbiter Head Up Display. Can you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think?

[User] Oh, I thought it was pretty incredible. I mean, anytime you went down there and saw even the vehicle and climbed in the vehicle, you were pretty excited, thinking, “So when do I get on? Why are these guys wearing glasses launching in the Space Shuttle? They’re old.” That’s what I was really thinking. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I’m glad you’re sharing this stuff with us. I understand you worked on the Orbiter Head Up Display. Can you tell us about that?

[User] Yes, that was a fun thing. I had worked on a Head Up display in the Air Force on the A-7 aircraft and I worked on the Head Up Display in the Jaguar with the British. Therefore, when I came to NASA, it was a natural fit that I’d work on the HUD [Head Up Display]. The biggest challenge on the Head Up Display in the Space Shuttle was the older established astronauts had not flown military aircraft with a HUD. Now, the younger guys, the ’78 and the ’80 group pilots had all flown aircraft with a HUD. There was some resistance to the HUD from the older astronauts. But, I had a lot of fun with the HUD. I liked working on it, and I liked working with the company in California who was doing it for us and getting it into the Orbiter.

[Assistant] Who else was working on that with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I thought it was pretty incredible. I mean, anytime you went down there and saw even the vehicle and climbed in the vehicle, you were pretty excited, thinking, “So when do I get on? Why are these guys wearing glasses launching in the Space Shuttle? They’re old.” That’s what I was really thinking. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I’m glad you’re sharing this stuff with us. I understand you worked on the Orbiter Head Up Display. Can you tell us about that?

[User] Yes, that was a fun thing. I had worked on a Head Up display in the Air Force on the A-7 aircraft and I worked on the Head Up Display in the Jaguar with the British. Therefore, when I came to NASA, it was a natural fit that I’d work on the HUD [Head Up Display]. The biggest challenge on the Head Up Display in the Space Shuttle was the older established astronauts had not flown military aircraft with a HUD. Now, the younger guys, the ’78 and the ’80 group pilots had all flown aircraft with a HUD. There was some resistance to the HUD from the older astronauts. But, I had a lot of fun with the HUD. I liked working on it, and I liked working with the company in California who was doing it for us and getting it into the Orbiter.

[Assistant] Who else was working on that with you?

[User] The guy who was first working on it in the ’78 group was Dave [S. David] Griggs. He left the HUD assignment before it got into the Orbiter, and unfortunately when I saw it, I felt it was too cluttered—displayed too much information.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about changing that? What changes did you make?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was a fun thing. I had worked on a Head Up display in the Air Force on the A-7 aircraft and I worked on the Head Up Display in the Jaguar with the British. Therefore, when I came to NASA, it was a natural fit that I’d work on the HUD [Head Up Display]. The biggest challenge on the Head Up Display in the Space Shuttle was the older established astronauts had not flown military aircraft with a HUD. Now, the younger guys, the ’78 and the ’80 group pilots had all flown aircraft with a HUD. There was some resistance to the HUD from the older astronauts. But, I had a lot of fun with the HUD. I liked working on it, and I liked working with the company in California who was doing it for us and getting it into the Orbiter.

[Assistant] Who else was working on that with you?

[User] The guy who was first working on it in the ’78 group was Dave [S. David] Griggs. He left the HUD assignment before it got into the Orbiter, and unfortunately when I saw it, I felt it was too cluttered—displayed too much information.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about changing that? What changes did you make?

[User] Well, to me it had too much data on it. It only needed four or five very important things on it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you worked with a company in California. What company was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The guy who was first working on it in the ’78 group was Dave [S. David] Griggs. He left the HUD assignment before it got into the Orbiter, and unfortunately when I saw it, I felt it was too cluttered—displayed too much information.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about changing that? What changes did you make?

[User] Well, to me it had too much data on it. It only needed four or five very important things on it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you worked with a company in California. What company was that?

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] We can research it. We can always add it later, too. What sort of work did you do out in California with the company?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, to me it had too much data on it. It only needed four or five very important things on it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you worked with a company in California. What company was that?

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] We can research it. We can always add it later, too. What sort of work did you do out in California with the company?

[User] Oh, that was very important, because they were the people who were actually making the HUD. When I first discussed my suggestions with them, I smiled because they said, “John, what you’re telling us is you want this display more like an F-18 HUD.”\n\n And I said, “Yeah, you could say that.”\n\n And they said, “Well, we tried to tell your people that a couple of years ago, but they wanted all this stuff on it.” Anyway, it was sort of funny.\n\n But the fundamental problem that I ran into with the Space Shuttle HUD was the senior flyers in the Astronaut Office were not familiar with a HUD.

[Assistant] Did you ever take any of those flyers up on the STA [Shuttle Training Aircraft] and show them how it worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] We can research it. We can always add it later, too. What sort of work did you do out in California with the company?

[User] Oh, that was very important, because they were the people who were actually making the HUD. When I first discussed my suggestions with them, I smiled because they said, “John, what you’re telling us is you want this display more like an F-18 HUD.”\n\n And I said, “Yeah, you could say that.”\n\n And they said, “Well, we tried to tell your people that a couple of years ago, but they wanted all this stuff on it.” Anyway, it was sort of funny.\n\n But the fundamental problem that I ran into with the Space Shuttle HUD was the senior flyers in the Astronaut Office were not familiar with a HUD.

[Assistant] Did you ever take any of those flyers up on the STA [Shuttle Training Aircraft] and show them how it worked?

[User] Yes. I had them evaluate the HUD in the STA. Dick [Richard H.] Truly and John [W.] Young were the two people who I thought really ended up liking the HUD with a small subset of information. Then, of course, once they liked it, making the format change on the HUD was easy.

[Assistant] So when was the HUD first put on the Space Shuttle then and actually used in a mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that was very important, because they were the people who were actually making the HUD. When I first discussed my suggestions with them, I smiled because they said, “John, what you’re telling us is you want this display more like an F-18 HUD.”\n\n And I said, “Yeah, you could say that.”\n\n And they said, “Well, we tried to tell your people that a couple of years ago, but they wanted all this stuff on it.” Anyway, it was sort of funny.\n\n But the fundamental problem that I ran into with the Space Shuttle HUD was the senior flyers in the Astronaut Office were not familiar with a HUD.

[Assistant] Did you ever take any of those flyers up on the STA [Shuttle Training Aircraft] and show them how it worked?

[User] Yes. I had them evaluate the HUD in the STA. Dick [Richard H.] Truly and John [W.] Young were the two people who I thought really ended up liking the HUD with a small subset of information. Then, of course, once they liked it, making the format change on the HUD was easy.

[Assistant] So when was the HUD first put on the Space Shuttle then and actually used in a mission?

[User] On STS-6, the version with too much information flew. Dick Truly flew with the new version on STS-8 version. I think all astronauts felt the simple version was a useful tool.

[Assistant] You mentioned STS-7, and we know that you were CapCom [Capsule Communicator], actually, on STS-7. You were CapCom for seven flights. You want to talk about some of those experiences and your memories?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, just with him. He did that, I think, one-on-one with people always, is what I think, unless he just did that with me, which I can’t believe. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Now, I understand that there were payload specialists appointed to this flight.

[User] Yes, there sure were. Nigel [R.] Wood was the prime payload specialist, from U.K. The other person was Richard [A.] Farrimond from the British Army. Nigel was a Royal Air Force officer. Anyway, so I thought that was really neat, since I’d served with the Royal Air Force. I thought they were good, just because they were Royal Air Force. And there was a medical doctor, Pritawi Sudarmo, from Indonesia. She was the other prime payload specialist. We were going to deploy PAMs [Payload Assist Modules].

[Assistant] What did the astronaut corps think of the appointment of payload specialists to the crews at that point?

[User] I thought they were neat people, myself. I really thought they were very, very talented people, any of the payload specialists that I saw, met, and worked with were very, very talented, sharp people. I thought they brought a lot to the missions.\n\n Then, of course, later, when I had our crew—there was a large crew much later on STS-58; boy, we had very, very talented payload specialists. I mean, they were so sharp I couldn’t believe it. So I really thought they were good. My answer is I thought they were good.

[Assistant] How long did they train with the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there sure were. Nigel [R.] Wood was the prime payload specialist, from U.K. The other person was Richard [A.] Farrimond from the British Army. Nigel was a Royal Air Force officer. Anyway, so I thought that was really neat, since I’d served with the Royal Air Force. I thought they were good, just because they were Royal Air Force. And there was a medical doctor, Pritawi Sudarmo, from Indonesia. She was the other prime payload specialist. We were going to deploy PAMs [Payload Assist Modules].

[Assistant] What did the astronaut corps think of the appointment of payload specialists to the crews at that point?

[User] I thought they were neat people, myself. I really thought they were very, very talented people, any of the payload specialists that I saw, met, and worked with were very, very talented, sharp people. I thought they brought a lot to the missions.\n\n Then, of course, later, when I had our crew—there was a large crew much later on STS-58; boy, we had very, very talented payload specialists. I mean, they were so sharp I couldn’t believe it. So I really thought they were good. My answer is I thought they were good.

[Assistant] How long did they train with the crew?

[User] We didn’t train very long, and something happened. I don’t remember what. I have no idea, and it’s not Challenger yet. For whatever reason, our payload was changed, and I honestly don’t remember what occurred, how that occurred when we lost our two payload specialists.

[Assistant] You mentioned Challenger. Where were you when the Challenger accident happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought they were neat people, myself. I really thought they were very, very talented people, any of the payload specialists that I saw, met, and worked with were very, very talented, sharp people. I thought they brought a lot to the missions.\n\n Then, of course, later, when I had our crew—there was a large crew much later on STS-58; boy, we had very, very talented payload specialists. I mean, they were so sharp I couldn’t believe it. So I really thought they were good. My answer is I thought they were good.

[Assistant] How long did they train with the crew?

[User] We didn’t train very long, and something happened. I don’t remember what. I have no idea, and it’s not Challenger yet. For whatever reason, our payload was changed, and I honestly don’t remember what occurred, how that occurred when we lost our two payload specialists.

[Assistant] You mentioned Challenger. Where were you when the Challenger accident happened?

[User] I was out at Base Ops [Operations] at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], getting ready to fly in a T-38. As soon as the Challenger launched, I was going to walk outside and fly down to Kennedy [Space Center], and they were going to put some data tapes in the backseat of my T-38, and I was going to fly it back here. That was my job on the Challenger flight, so I was literally standing out there. I saw the launch on television.

[Assistant] And after you saw what had happened on TV, what did you do? Did you go back to the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t train very long, and something happened. I don’t remember what. I have no idea, and it’s not Challenger yet. For whatever reason, our payload was changed, and I honestly don’t remember what occurred, how that occurred when we lost our two payload specialists.

[Assistant] You mentioned Challenger. Where were you when the Challenger accident happened?

[User] I was out at Base Ops [Operations] at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], getting ready to fly in a T-38. As soon as the Challenger launched, I was going to walk outside and fly down to Kennedy [Space Center], and they were going to put some data tapes in the backseat of my T-38, and I was going to fly it back here. That was my job on the Challenger flight, so I was literally standing out there. I saw the launch on television.

[Assistant] And after you saw what had happened on TV, what did you do? Did you go back to the Center?

[User] Yes, but I knew it wasn’t good. It was like wow, this is very bad. This is not going to be good. This is bad. I felt sorry for the families on board. I’d known Dick [Francis R.] Scobee at Edwards. So that wasn’t good. From a family viewpoint, you felt bad about everything, but you also were concerned about what did this mean to the future of you flying in space. I mean, there’s no question those were of equal weight. Of course, Mike [Michael J.] Smith was on there. He was from our group. Anyway, Challenger wasn’t real good.

[Assistant] Did you have any thoughts about leaving the astronaut corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was out at Base Ops [Operations] at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], getting ready to fly in a T-38. As soon as the Challenger launched, I was going to walk outside and fly down to Kennedy [Space Center], and they were going to put some data tapes in the backseat of my T-38, and I was going to fly it back here. That was my job on the Challenger flight, so I was literally standing out there. I saw the launch on television.

[Assistant] And after you saw what had happened on TV, what did you do? Did you go back to the Center?

[User] Yes, but I knew it wasn’t good. It was like wow, this is very bad. This is not going to be good. This is bad. I felt sorry for the families on board. I’d known Dick [Francis R.] Scobee at Edwards. So that wasn’t good. From a family viewpoint, you felt bad about everything, but you also were concerned about what did this mean to the future of you flying in space. I mean, there’s no question those were of equal weight. Of course, Mike [Michael J.] Smith was on there. He was from our group. Anyway, Challenger wasn’t real good.

[Assistant] Did you have any thoughts about leaving the astronaut corps?

[User] No. Not because of the accident.

[Assistant] What were some of your assignments after the Challenger accident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but I knew it wasn’t good. It was like wow, this is very bad. This is not going to be good. This is bad. I felt sorry for the families on board. I’d known Dick [Francis R.] Scobee at Edwards. So that wasn’t good. From a family viewpoint, you felt bad about everything, but you also were concerned about what did this mean to the future of you flying in space. I mean, there’s no question those were of equal weight. Of course, Mike [Michael J.] Smith was on there. He was from our group. Anyway, Challenger wasn’t real good.

[Assistant] Did you have any thoughts about leaving the astronaut corps?

[User] No. Not because of the accident.

[Assistant] What were some of your assignments after the Challenger accident?

[User] I thought I had a good assignment. I went out to California to work with the Marquardt Division of the CCI Corporation who make the reaction control jets. I worked a lot with them to mitigate a burn through failure mode on the reaction control jets.

[Assistant] I understand you were also working on the development of contingency abort procedures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, our crew was lucky. About two months after the accident, we were assigned as a prime crew to train for a simulated June launch. The idea was to keep the whole training system running. In June, we had a two-day simulation mission. Then we actually went back into training again, once they decided STS-26 was going to be a TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite] flight, we then started to train on the STS-26 training load. As a result, when I launched on STS-29, I felt very prepared. I felt like when I launched on STS-29 that I’d been through my third training flow, which meant I really felt very comfortable.

[Assistant] Any interesting anecdotes that you remember from those training sessions?

[User] One thing that was disappointing was that we lost Anna [L.] Fisher, and I never understood that. Originally she was the MS [Mission Specialist]-2 on that first assigned crew, and I really liked Anna. We had become good buddies, and I really liked working with her.\n\n Approximately a year before our real launch in ’89, I was on a PR [public relations] trip in New York, and I got a phone call, and I was told, “John, I just wanted to call you because,”—I think it was from Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein—“I just wanted to call you, because your crew has been announced for this STS-29 mission, and Anna is not on the crew.”\n\n I never understood this change. I remember that was a big downer to me. It should have been an upper, because I was being told I was assigned to a crew, STS-29, that would launch in March 1989. But it wasn’t.

[Assistant] How did it change the dynamics of the crew?

[User] A lot. A lot.

[Assistant] Can you give an example?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I would just say that what surprised me was time compression, and why I have no idea, but from the time we did our de-orbit burn, we were on the runway, in real time, one hour later, it felt like it was five minutes, and why, I have no idea. Because I thought I was very prepared, but it was a huge time compression. It just went by like that. [Snaps fingers.] And you almost wondered, “What did I see? What was this instrument reading at this time?” And I could hardly remember it, which meant that I was way behind the ball. I think I was riding it, not involved with taking care of it. So I remember that. I remember time compression, significant time compression.\n\n Then at the end of the flight, I was wondering if I was going to have any problems. For whatever reason, it was like going and getting in my car and driving over here and then getting out, which really surprised me, but I was really happy.

[Assistant] What are your memories of getting out of the Space Shuttle and seeing your family?

[User] My number one memory is, I already told you, the first thing I told Brenda, “Brenda, I love you, but if I could, I’d go right back out to that launch pad and launch right now again.” That’s how much I enjoyed being in space. That’s the number one thing I remember. She would tell you that, too, if she were here.

[Assistant] What was it like those first couple of days being back from space, other than wanting to go back?

[User] My number one desire was to get reassigned to a crew and get back into orbit. And of course, we were only on a five-day mission, which isn’t like it’s some great separation, because it’s not. I mean, what’s five days? It happens to people all the time here, right?

[Assistant] Besides going to the White House, what other trips did you take after this flight was flown?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My number one memory is, I already told you, the first thing I told Brenda, “Brenda, I love you, but if I could, I’d go right back out to that launch pad and launch right now again.” That’s how much I enjoyed being in space. That’s the number one thing I remember. She would tell you that, too, if she were here.

[Assistant] What was it like those first couple of days being back from space, other than wanting to go back?

[User] My number one desire was to get reassigned to a crew and get back into orbit. And of course, we were only on a five-day mission, which isn’t like it’s some great separation, because it’s not. I mean, what’s five days? It happens to people all the time here, right?

[Assistant] Besides going to the White House, what other trips did you take after this flight was flown?

[User] I went back to my hometown in San Antonio [Texas]. They had a couple of things there, a couple of big parades. The Battle of Flowers Parade was one. I also went to Granby High School in Norfolk, Virginia, where I graduated in 1960. I was the graduation commencement speaker. I went back to the Air Force Academy and spoke to cadets. I went to the athletic awards dinner in June. So a whole lot of things happened like that. They were kind of fun, because you were going back to places that you had been at.\n\n Then I got reassigned in July to a new crew, so it sort of just stopped the public appearances very quickly.

[Assistant] Let me just go back and ask you just a couple of general questions about the flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My number one desire was to get reassigned to a crew and get back into orbit. And of course, we were only on a five-day mission, which isn’t like it’s some great separation, because it’s not. I mean, what’s five days? It happens to people all the time here, right?

[Assistant] Besides going to the White House, what other trips did you take after this flight was flown?

[User] I went back to my hometown in San Antonio [Texas]. They had a couple of things there, a couple of big parades. The Battle of Flowers Parade was one. I also went to Granby High School in Norfolk, Virginia, where I graduated in 1960. I was the graduation commencement speaker. I went back to the Air Force Academy and spoke to cadets. I went to the athletic awards dinner in June. So a whole lot of things happened like that. They were kind of fun, because you were going back to places that you had been at.\n\n Then I got reassigned in July to a new crew, so it sort of just stopped the public appearances very quickly.

[Assistant] Let me just go back and ask you just a couple of general questions about the flight.

[User] Anyway, that got going for a little bit, and then it was like it was completely interrupted, and everything had to be canceled that was planned when I was reassigned to that STS-33 crew. But I wasn’t unhappy about that, but anyway, I remember that.

[Assistant] I can imagine you were pleased.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went back to my hometown in San Antonio [Texas]. They had a couple of things there, a couple of big parades. The Battle of Flowers Parade was one. I also went to Granby High School in Norfolk, Virginia, where I graduated in 1960. I was the graduation commencement speaker. I went back to the Air Force Academy and spoke to cadets. I went to the athletic awards dinner in June. So a whole lot of things happened like that. They were kind of fun, because you were going back to places that you had been at.\n\n Then I got reassigned in July to a new crew, so it sort of just stopped the public appearances very quickly.

[Assistant] Let me just go back and ask you just a couple of general questions about the flight.

[User] Anyway, that got going for a little bit, and then it was like it was completely interrupted, and everything had to be canceled that was planned when I was reassigned to that STS-33 crew. But I wasn’t unhappy about that, but anyway, I remember that.

[Assistant] I can imagine you were pleased.

[User] I was very pleased. Go ahead, back to—

[Assistant] When you were on board the Space Shuttle in flight, did you have a chance to fly the Orbiter as the pilot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, that got going for a little bit, and then it was like it was completely interrupted, and everything had to be canceled that was planned when I was reassigned to that STS-33 crew. But I wasn’t unhappy about that, but anyway, I remember that.

[Assistant] I can imagine you were pleased.

[User] I was very pleased. Go ahead, back to—

[Assistant] When you were on board the Space Shuttle in flight, did you have a chance to fly the Orbiter as the pilot?

[User] Yes. On entry, of course, I think it was a pretty normal concept that the commander would, at some point in the landing phase, say. “You got it,” and you’d fly it for, I don’t remember, five or ten seconds, whatever it was, and then give it back to the commander and he’d fly it. So I did that, and when I did it, I thought, “Gee, this feels just like the STA.” That was the biggest value of it, for you to realize that your STA training was very, very good.\n\n But the biggest thing I got out of that flight, that surprised me, was the time compression the last hour prior to landing, which really helped me prepare for subsequent flights. I realized I had to think more about that last hour so I was more prepared, because if you’re more prepared, that doesn’t happen to you. As it turns out, by the time I flew STS-58 on entry, I felt like I was driving my car over here today. I mean, everything, the world in front of you, every bank angle, everything, I felt like I was seeing everything, and that was completely different than STS-29. When STS-29 was over, I felt I hadn’t seen anything.

[Assistant] Do you remember the day of launch? Do you have any memories or recollections of that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very pleased. Go ahead, back to—

[Assistant] When you were on board the Space Shuttle in flight, did you have a chance to fly the Orbiter as the pilot?

[User] Yes. On entry, of course, I think it was a pretty normal concept that the commander would, at some point in the landing phase, say. “You got it,” and you’d fly it for, I don’t remember, five or ten seconds, whatever it was, and then give it back to the commander and he’d fly it. So I did that, and when I did it, I thought, “Gee, this feels just like the STA.” That was the biggest value of it, for you to realize that your STA training was very, very good.\n\n But the biggest thing I got out of that flight, that surprised me, was the time compression the last hour prior to landing, which really helped me prepare for subsequent flights. I realized I had to think more about that last hour so I was more prepared, because if you’re more prepared, that doesn’t happen to you. As it turns out, by the time I flew STS-58 on entry, I felt like I was driving my car over here today. I mean, everything, the world in front of you, every bank angle, everything, I felt like I was seeing everything, and that was completely different than STS-29. When STS-29 was over, I felt I hadn’t seen anything.

[Assistant] Do you remember the day of launch? Do you have any memories or recollections of that day?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Do you want to share those thoughts with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The change can be in either direction. I’m going to call it an unknown direction. But when you see that, someone you’ve been training with for a year and a half, two years, and it’s like this face is talking, but they’re not the same person, which is really weird.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] It was really weird, but I remember after my second flight, I did, I looked at whoever the flight surgeon was debriefing me, and I said, “I got a very important question. I want to know who gives a debrief like me.” Then when I got to fly with Shannon, that was good. Then we flew again on STS-58 together, so that was also good. I mean, when you have someone grounded with you, that helps. It helps you understand other things that are happening.\n\n But there are a lot of funny things that happen on a space flight. I mean, really absolute funny things. In fact, Shannon and I, on 58, were laughing so much, the tears were coming out of our eyes, we were laughing so much. Sometimes we’d get together and just look at each other and just laugh so hard.

[Assistant] I think next time we’ll look forward to some of those stories, because this is about the time we should end our interview today.

[User] I know, but I probably shouldn’t tell you those stories. That’s why when you asked me what to talk about, I know that it wouldn’t be fair to other people, and I don’t like to do that. But anyway, they are funny. If I can think of any that are okay to tell you, I’ll do that.

[Assistant] That would be great, and we look forward to speaking with you next time about those flights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can go in the altitude chamber [refer to\n\n photo 20\n\n ], but I don’t go in the hyperbaric chamber, because I’ve been bent a few times, so they don’t want me diving. For 20 years, I was the only inside tender that did out treatment dives with all the patients. So I just got bent a couple times while treating patients, so after that, they decided I could go in the altitude chamber, because I can pre-breathe, but pre-breathing doesn’t do you any good going down, because that’s the worst thing you can do is set yourself up for O2 toxicity.\n\n I like the doctors that I work with. One’s a retired colonel, Army, and one’s retired Navy, a Navy captain, but he was a Colonel in the Air Force. He switched sides. Finally he got it right. I always throw those little digs in. We always are after each other at work. I always call them bus drivers, and they say, “Well, at least we’re not swabbies.” That old stuff. That’ll go on time immemorial. That will never stop. I imagine you ask that of other people, that’s got to be a hard question for them to answer.

[Assistant] I think sometimes it is the most difficult.

[User] Probably if I drive out of here and I’ll say, “Why didn’t I think of that?” But I can’t think of one thing that really stands out.

[Assistant] If there’s not anything else that you want to add, then I want to thank you for joining us today and agreeing to participate.

[User] Well, I hope it’s interesting for somebody. I don’t want anyone to look at five minutes and say, “Shut that off.”

[Assistant] No, I think it was very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] News and news news broadcasts, both radio and TV. I was one of those young Americans who was very optimistic with the election and JFK.

[Assistant] Ok, so when you decided to join the Peace Corps, did you have any specific country or project that you had in mind that you wanted to try to get to where you wanted to go?

[User] And I really I always think I was taking something of South America or Latin America because I had I did know some Spanish. I had traveled in Mexico previously. So so was kind of inclined to go to Latin America. And also the Peace Corps sent me a very encouraging letter. They said they were looking for volunteers to work in programs of a very bitter experience and dairy farming and work for a dairy agency which sold them for dairy cattle production. I guess they kind of felt it was a logical choice.

[Assistant] Yeah, you probably premium because there weren't probably that many people with your experience. So what were your friends and families reactions when you decided to go? Were they surprised that they worry about you or what?

[User] No, they were not surprised. They back that they were a little bit disappointed because I was going to wait for maybe two or three years and I thought a little bit about his dictation because I was so up with my father and the family farm and aside from my work on the outside. I also provided quite a little help on the farm work. But I felt that my horizons there in Massachusetts were kind of limited. And so they were they said, go ahead, get to experience. Yeah. We can hire somebody else to take your place.

[Assistant] All right. So. What project can you tell us a little bit about when you received the notice that you were accepted and what project you were asked to be part of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they were not surprised. They back that they were a little bit disappointed because I was going to wait for maybe two or three years and I thought a little bit about his dictation because I was so up with my father and the family farm and aside from my work on the outside. I also provided quite a little help on the farm work. But I felt that my horizons there in Massachusetts were kind of limited. And so they were they said, go ahead, get to experience. Yeah. We can hire somebody else to take your place.

[Assistant] All right. So. What project can you tell us a little bit about when you received the notice that you were accepted and what project you were asked to be part of?

[User] Well, I was asked to be part of this Bolivian project, and the government said the government had built a plant there, which is known to people and they needed volunteers to work with the dairy farmers, improving dairy production in the area. They also painted some pictures of Cochabamba, which were quite encouraging. And rather than giving the image of going to a remote village that said you're going to be located in a small city with all kinds of conveniences and so forth, which is a little bit contrary to the image of a Peace Corps man going out to remote villages.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's the image that was there. And I guess that OK, so did you do anything special to get ready to go to the Peace Corps or prepare yourself or just put up your suitcase?

[User] I did a little. I went to the local library and

[Assistant] Found out where Bolivia was? That's what I did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was asked to be part of this Bolivian project, and the government said the government had built a plant there, which is known to people and they needed volunteers to work with the dairy farmers, improving dairy production in the area. They also painted some pictures of Cochabamba, which were quite encouraging. And rather than giving the image of going to a remote village that said you're going to be located in a small city with all kinds of conveniences and so forth, which is a little bit contrary to the image of a Peace Corps man going out to remote villages.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's the image that was there. And I guess that OK, so did you do anything special to get ready to go to the Peace Corps or prepare yourself or just put up your suitcase?

[User] I did a little. I went to the local library and

[Assistant] Found out where Bolivia was? That's what I did.

[User] I knew where Bolivia was, very much so. In fact, that my first recollection of Bolivia was and I'm dating myself during World War Two, I was reading an article in Reader's Digest it this article is quite critical of me at that time. And of course, it occurred in Bolivia as being just in the country where my head was mined. I didn't know where the tropical areas of the country. And maybe that's where I first found out about Simón Patiño.

[Assistant] Ah, Patiño, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did a little. I went to the local library and

[Assistant] Found out where Bolivia was? That's what I did.

[User] I knew where Bolivia was, very much so. In fact, that my first recollection of Bolivia was and I'm dating myself during World War Two, I was reading an article in Reader's Digest it this article is quite critical of me at that time. And of course, it occurred in Bolivia as being just in the country where my head was mined. I didn't know where the tropical areas of the country. And maybe that's where I first found out about Simón Patiño.

[Assistant] Ah, Patiño, yeah.

[User] Because they they thought that maybe an American program was not at that time. This would be for the agrarian reform, but to tell that our program was not effective and there was quite a bit of corruption and misuse of funds.

[Assistant] Well, you knew more than most of us then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew where Bolivia was, very much so. In fact, that my first recollection of Bolivia was and I'm dating myself during World War Two, I was reading an article in Reader's Digest it this article is quite critical of me at that time. And of course, it occurred in Bolivia as being just in the country where my head was mined. I didn't know where the tropical areas of the country. And maybe that's where I first found out about Simón Patiño.

[Assistant] Ah, Patiño, yeah.

[User] Because they they thought that maybe an American program was not at that time. This would be for the agrarian reform, but to tell that our program was not effective and there was quite a bit of corruption and misuse of funds.

[Assistant] Well, you knew more than most of us then.

[User] And furthermore, I think I maybe read a little bit about Bolivia from grade school geography. And we picture Bolivia at that time as being a high desert plateau, which they had the Amazon Indians and also read another book. I took a journey one time in university, took the genetics course, and the professor, I think, was quite concerned about maintaining racial, pure racial purity. And of course, that's one way that that happens when you look at that time, which we race conscious and segregation. Yeah, but anyway, he used as an example maybe that because of the mixture of people, races and reported races, that kind of deteriorated.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Now let's go back to the training where you got to training in Arizona. What were your impressions? What did you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they they thought that maybe an American program was not at that time. This would be for the agrarian reform, but to tell that our program was not effective and there was quite a bit of corruption and misuse of funds.

[Assistant] Well, you knew more than most of us then.

[User] And furthermore, I think I maybe read a little bit about Bolivia from grade school geography. And we picture Bolivia at that time as being a high desert plateau, which they had the Amazon Indians and also read another book. I took a journey one time in university, took the genetics course, and the professor, I think, was quite concerned about maintaining racial, pure racial purity. And of course, that's one way that that happens when you look at that time, which we race conscious and segregation. Yeah, but anyway, he used as an example maybe that because of the mixture of people, races and reported races, that kind of deteriorated.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Now let's go back to the training where you got to training in Arizona. What were your impressions? What did you think?

[User] Well, when he got off the plane, I was greeted by a blast of hot air, but Bob Woff was there to greet us. And he he made us feel right at home and he took us to get to the dormitories at the Arizona State. And that's where we were a number of weeks.

[Assistant] So what did you do primarily in the training? What did what was your what were the most outstanding memories that you have of that training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And furthermore, I think I maybe read a little bit about Bolivia from grade school geography. And we picture Bolivia at that time as being a high desert plateau, which they had the Amazon Indians and also read another book. I took a journey one time in university, took the genetics course, and the professor, I think, was quite concerned about maintaining racial, pure racial purity. And of course, that's one way that that happens when you look at that time, which we race conscious and segregation. Yeah, but anyway, he used as an example maybe that because of the mixture of people, races and reported races, that kind of deteriorated.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Now let's go back to the training where you got to training in Arizona. What were your impressions? What did you think?

[User] Well, when he got off the plane, I was greeted by a blast of hot air, but Bob Woff was there to greet us. And he he made us feel right at home and he took us to get to the dormitories at the Arizona State. And that's where we were a number of weeks.

[Assistant] So what did you do primarily in the training? What did what was your what were the most outstanding memories that you have of that training?

[User] I think some of the training, for instance, on the orientation class is about Bolivia, and we had about two or three different so-called authorities of Bolivia with a new series of lectures. And it seemed to be from the particular perspective, the first first lecture was spent close to that time in remote Indian villages and the image of Bolivia as being a remote village. People would find Indians and everything was very primitive, limited, and many of the people, of course, did not speak Spanish. You better learn Quechua.

[Assistant] What did you think of the language classes?