[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, in those days.

[Assistant] I can imagine my mother would have been over there immediately.

[User] Oh, no, no, no. They just, well, they thought it was good, good, good. They sent me a telegram and, uh, I have still have the telegram. And they didn't come over. They didn't. I didn't invite them over, but they just didn't even think about it. They were in circumstances where they couldn't come over at that time because they had bought a motor inn in their retirement years, which was a crazy thing to do, but it really tied them down and, um. They were very happy to meet the baby when he was came back to the States.

[Assistant] But being upcountry and being pregnant, they were calm about all of that?

[User] And my parents are from Boston, they're from New England, and they just, you know.

[Assistant] Stiff upper lip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no, no. They just, well, they thought it was good, good, good. They sent me a telegram and, uh, I have still have the telegram. And they didn't come over. They didn't. I didn't invite them over, but they just didn't even think about it. They were in circumstances where they couldn't come over at that time because they had bought a motor inn in their retirement years, which was a crazy thing to do, but it really tied them down and, um. They were very happy to meet the baby when he was came back to the States.

[Assistant] But being upcountry and being pregnant, they were calm about all of that?

[User] And my parents are from Boston, they're from New England, and they just, you know.

[Assistant] Stiff upper lip.

[User] Stiff upper lip. Yes, yes. So I had no Lamaze classes, no group of people. I had nobody. I had no idea. You know, I was just so young and so innocent and didn't have all of these advertisements around about how you had to have special plugs so your kid wouldn't get his finger caught in the, in the socket there. I mean, nothing. It was just me. There was one other.

[Assistant] You didn't have electricity, so there was no. Oh, I guess in Nairobi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my parents are from Boston, they're from New England, and they just, you know.

[Assistant] Stiff upper lip.

[User] Stiff upper lip. Yes, yes. So I had no Lamaze classes, no group of people. I had nobody. I had no idea. You know, I was just so young and so innocent and didn't have all of these advertisements around about how you had to have special plugs so your kid wouldn't get his finger caught in the, in the socket there. I mean, nothing. It was just me. There was one other.

[Assistant] You didn't have electricity, so there was no. Oh, I guess in Nairobi.

[User] In Nairobi we did. Yeah, we had electricity in Nairobi. Yeah.

[Assistant] So let me ask you about, we'll circle back to some other things. Let me ask you about Nairobi. And I asked that because my husband and I came from Somalia to Nairobi and we're just overwhelmed by the traffic and the sophistication of Nairobi after having been in Somalia for, I guess, at that point a year. What was your impression of Nairobi coming from up, coming upcountry to Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stiff upper lip. Yes, yes. So I had no Lamaze classes, no group of people. I had nobody. I had no idea. You know, I was just so young and so innocent and didn't have all of these advertisements around about how you had to have special plugs so your kid wouldn't get his finger caught in the, in the socket there. I mean, nothing. It was just me. There was one other.

[Assistant] You didn't have electricity, so there was no. Oh, I guess in Nairobi.

[User] In Nairobi we did. Yeah, we had electricity in Nairobi. Yeah.

[Assistant] So let me ask you about, we'll circle back to some other things. Let me ask you about Nairobi. And I asked that because my husband and I came from Somalia to Nairobi and we're just overwhelmed by the traffic and the sophistication of Nairobi after having been in Somalia for, I guess, at that point a year. What was your impression of Nairobi coming from up, coming upcountry to Nairobi?

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, you know, upcountry was dirt roads and one duka, one small shop. So Nairobi was like heaven. We had once, one, uh, pair and they weren't a pair. Anyway, they just happened to live together. Two volunteers who lived in Nairobi. And I tell you, they had more guests, as you can imagine, everybody sleeping on their floor. Everybody loved Nairobi. The new Stanley Hotel, the Thorn Tree, where you could get a real hamburger. The Norfolk Hotel where they walked through with a little blackboard on a stick that had your name, ringing a bell, saying, you know, Mr. Dakin, Mr. Dakin, phone for you. Maybe there was a phone. I can't remember. We certainly didn't have phones.

[Assistant] So it was very impressive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Nairobi we did. Yeah, we had electricity in Nairobi. Yeah.

[Assistant] So let me ask you about, we'll circle back to some other things. Let me ask you about Nairobi. And I asked that because my husband and I came from Somalia to Nairobi and we're just overwhelmed by the traffic and the sophistication of Nairobi after having been in Somalia for, I guess, at that point a year. What was your impression of Nairobi coming from up, coming upcountry to Nairobi?

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, you know, upcountry was dirt roads and one duka, one small shop. So Nairobi was like heaven. We had once, one, uh, pair and they weren't a pair. Anyway, they just happened to live together. Two volunteers who lived in Nairobi. And I tell you, they had more guests, as you can imagine, everybody sleeping on their floor. Everybody loved Nairobi. The new Stanley Hotel, the Thorn Tree, where you could get a real hamburger. The Norfolk Hotel where they walked through with a little blackboard on a stick that had your name, ringing a bell, saying, you know, Mr. Dakin, Mr. Dakin, phone for you. Maybe there was a phone. I can't remember. We certainly didn't have phones.

[Assistant] So it was very impressive.

[User] Oh, my God.

[Assistant] And was it very British at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, you know, upcountry was dirt roads and one duka, one small shop. So Nairobi was like heaven. We had once, one, uh, pair and they weren't a pair. Anyway, they just happened to live together. Two volunteers who lived in Nairobi. And I tell you, they had more guests, as you can imagine, everybody sleeping on their floor. Everybody loved Nairobi. The new Stanley Hotel, the Thorn Tree, where you could get a real hamburger. The Norfolk Hotel where they walked through with a little blackboard on a stick that had your name, ringing a bell, saying, you know, Mr. Dakin, Mr. Dakin, phone for you. Maybe there was a phone. I can't remember. We certainly didn't have phones.

[Assistant] So it was very impressive.

[User] Oh, my God.

[Assistant] And was it very British at that point?

[User] Oh, totally. Totally British. Yeah. And Indian. Lots of Indians. Yeah, lots of Indians. I had, one of my daughters-in-law is an Indian. Daughter-in-laws, yeah, whichever it is. Yeah. So but I remember, I'm thinking about this now, that on Sundays you would go, if you were driving around Nairobi, all the parks were filled with Indian families having picnics. They looked so, you know, they all looked so beautiful. Oh, it was, uh, when we moved there, we were very struck. We came from, we lived in Manhattan, we lived in New York, and then we trained in Wisconsin, of all the crazy places to train, in the winter. But when we got there, we, I'll never forget going, doing our first grocery shop before we went upcountry in a big truck. And, um, it was the whole, the whole class system, the whole racial divide was so clear at the grocery store because all the shoppers were white, all of the cashiers were Indian, and all the baggers were Black.

[Assistant] I remember that well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, my God.

[Assistant] And was it very British at that point?

[User] Oh, totally. Totally British. Yeah. And Indian. Lots of Indians. Yeah, lots of Indians. I had, one of my daughters-in-law is an Indian. Daughter-in-laws, yeah, whichever it is. Yeah. So but I remember, I'm thinking about this now, that on Sundays you would go, if you were driving around Nairobi, all the parks were filled with Indian families having picnics. They looked so, you know, they all looked so beautiful. Oh, it was, uh, when we moved there, we were very struck. We came from, we lived in Manhattan, we lived in New York, and then we trained in Wisconsin, of all the crazy places to train, in the winter. But when we got there, we, I'll never forget going, doing our first grocery shop before we went upcountry in a big truck. And, um, it was the whole, the whole class system, the whole racial divide was so clear at the grocery store because all the shoppers were white, all of the cashiers were Indian, and all the baggers were Black.

[Assistant] I remember that well.

[User] Do you? Yeah. I, we were just like, how in the world? And I would just never forget that. That was our first shop that we did there. Yeah.

[Assistant] And that, were there Indians upcountry as well? Or really only in the city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you? Yeah. I, we were just like, how in the world? And I would just never forget that. That was our first shop that we did there. Yeah.

[Assistant] And that, were there Indians upcountry as well? Or really only in the city?

[User] You know, there were Indians up country but not, not in the places where we lived. They were too small, because there weren't any stores that were. Maybe in Thomsons Falls that might have been an Indian family, but certainly not in Njabini, our first place. No, because there weren't any stores. There were no businesses to run. But in the, in the cities uptown, upcountry, like Nakuru or Naivasha, there were definitely Indians, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Then when we moved, we moved after Libya. I'm sorry. You know what it was. But we were in Kenya, we. At one point, after a few years later, we moved to London and lived in London for 11 years. And it was quite fascinating how many Indians had moved from Kenya and Uganda, more Uganda, to London. So it was like our whole past. And then there were people who had been in the colonial service and had been district officers.

[Assistant] And those were the Indians that had British passports?

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] But a lot of the Kenyans and Ugandans didn't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, there were Indians up country but not, not in the places where we lived. They were too small, because there weren't any stores that were. Maybe in Thomsons Falls that might have been an Indian family, but certainly not in Njabini, our first place. No, because there weren't any stores. There were no businesses to run. But in the, in the cities uptown, upcountry, like Nakuru or Naivasha, there were definitely Indians, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Then when we moved, we moved after Libya. I'm sorry. You know what it was. But we were in Kenya, we. At one point, after a few years later, we moved to London and lived in London for 11 years. And it was quite fascinating how many Indians had moved from Kenya and Uganda, more Uganda, to London. So it was like our whole past. And then there were people who had been in the colonial service and had been district officers.

[Assistant] And those were the Indians that had British passports?

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] But a lot of the Kenyans and Ugandans didn't.

[User] I know. Yeah.

[Assistant] So that's another whole East African story that many people don't know. You mentioned you were in training in Wisconsin. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] But a lot of the Kenyans and Ugandans didn't.

[User] I know. Yeah.

[Assistant] So that's another whole East African story that many people don't know. You mentioned you were in training in Wisconsin. What was that like?

[User] We were in training in Wisconsin.

[Assistant] What was your training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. Yeah.

[Assistant] So that's another whole East African story that many people don't know. You mentioned you were in training in Wisconsin. What was that like?

[User] We were in training in Wisconsin.

[Assistant] What was your training like?

[User] Well, first of all, it was Wisconsin in the winter, you know, we're going to Equatorial Africa. So. But our training was.

[Assistant] But you were in college in Vermont, so it shouldn't have been that cold.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in training in Wisconsin.

[Assistant] What was your training like?

[User] Well, first of all, it was Wisconsin in the winter, you know, we're going to Equatorial Africa. So. But our training was.

[Assistant] But you were in college in Vermont, so it shouldn't have been that cold.

[User] No, but I had to get my mother to send my raccoon coat to me for, in, uh, in Wisconsin. Okay. So we had three months of training. And the training was every day, half a day, six days a week, we had language. Swahili. And we studied Swahili with Kenyans, with Swahili speakers. So that was half the day, every day. And the afternoon half, we had lectures on Kenya and on the history of Kenya and on colonization. And so we had special guests that came in from around. And those big departments at Wisconsin, I'm quite sure. Did you go to the University of Wisconsin?

[Assistant] No, we were at Teachers College in New York.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, first of all, it was Wisconsin in the winter, you know, we're going to Equatorial Africa. So. But our training was.

[Assistant] But you were in college in Vermont, so it shouldn't have been that cold.

[User] No, but I had to get my mother to send my raccoon coat to me for, in, uh, in Wisconsin. Okay. So we had three months of training. And the training was every day, half a day, six days a week, we had language. Swahili. And we studied Swahili with Kenyans, with Swahili speakers. So that was half the day, every day. And the afternoon half, we had lectures on Kenya and on the history of Kenya and on colonization. And so we had special guests that came in from around. And those big departments at Wisconsin, I'm quite sure. Did you go to the University of Wisconsin?

[Assistant] No, we were at Teachers College in New York.

[User] Oh, you lucky thing. No, not. Teachers College is great. But yeah, I just didn't know if you went there. But I think they have a big Africa department at Wisconsin then. But we were in Milwaukee, University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, and then we did go to Madison so the guys could learn to build latrines. Now, we didn't learn to build latrines, the three of us. It was interesting because the three women were put up, put together with a social worker in Madison. While the guys learned to build latrines and learned everything about agriculture, we learned about poverty. It was very interesting. I'm not quite sure why they did that. I'll never forget it, going with a social worker around to the families that she was supporting and learning how difficult it was to have big families and be poor. And I'm not sure it had a direct, it affected us. But whether it had a direct translation to the work in Kenya, I don't know about that.

[Assistant] Well, the notion was there were large families that were poor, but you can't translate Wisconsin poverty to Kenyan poverty.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Kenya, excuse me. When we first, we arrived on New Year's Day 1965 at the airport and we all sang the Kenyan national anthem, which we all still know. But we were on a bus to go out to where we were staying, which might have been a farmers training center. I can't quite remember. And we stopped the bus. And I had gotten the highest marks in Swahili. And, you know, I'm thinking, you know, I am so good. I can understand anybody in Swahili. And so we stopped on the side of the road, and here's this Kikuyu woman. I only know because she had wood on her back. And she started to talk to me. I couldn't understand one single word that she said, because what we had learned was what is called safi Swahili, you know, conjugated.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, [speaks Swahili]. That translated to Latin or French, you know, je, tu, vous.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And she spoke what is called kitchen Swahili, which has no conjugation, just use the base of the, of the verbs. So I realized that I wasn't really so smart as I was. And really I hadn't learned much about the culture, just the language. And you can't know the language without the culture.

[Assistant] So two questions from that. How did you end up learning kitchen Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, [speaks Swahili]. That translated to Latin or French, you know, je, tu, vous.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And she spoke what is called kitchen Swahili, which has no conjugation, just use the base of the, of the verbs. So I realized that I wasn't really so smart as I was. And really I hadn't learned much about the culture, just the language. And you can't know the language without the culture.

[Assistant] So two questions from that. How did you end up learning kitchen Swahili?

[User] Oh, just by speaking it.

[Assistant] Is it easier to go backwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she spoke what is called kitchen Swahili, which has no conjugation, just use the base of the, of the verbs. So I realized that I wasn't really so smart as I was. And really I hadn't learned much about the culture, just the language. And you can't know the language without the culture.

[Assistant] So two questions from that. How did you end up learning kitchen Swahili?

[User] Oh, just by speaking it.

[Assistant] Is it easier to go backwards?

[User] Oh, yeah. It's so easy to go backwards.

[Assistant] It's simpler. Once you know how to conjugate, it's easier to just speak in infinitives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, just by speaking it.

[Assistant] Is it easier to go backwards?

[User] Oh, yeah. It's so easy to go backwards.

[Assistant] It's simpler. Once you know how to conjugate, it's easier to just speak in infinitives.

[User] Right. And just speak. Yeah, right. That is the word, yes, speaking in infinitives.

[Assistant] But is the accent, I mean, is it a different dialect or is Swahili basically Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. It's so easy to go backwards.

[Assistant] It's simpler. Once you know how to conjugate, it's easier to just speak in infinitives.

[User] Right. And just speak. Yeah, right. That is the word, yes, speaking in infinitives.

[Assistant] But is the accent, I mean, is it a different dialect or is Swahili basically Swahili?

[User] Yes. Swahili is a combination of Arabic and Bantu languages, which you probably know, and it was written down by missionaries. So it was pretty, it is pretty much phonetic. It's spoken as it's written. So there isn't much of a, I don't know, but I could always understand everybody and people could hopefully understand me.

[Assistant] You just said something really interesting. You can't understand the culture unless you understand the language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And just speak. Yeah, right. That is the word, yes, speaking in infinitives.

[Assistant] But is the accent, I mean, is it a different dialect or is Swahili basically Swahili?

[User] Yes. Swahili is a combination of Arabic and Bantu languages, which you probably know, and it was written down by missionaries. So it was pretty, it is pretty much phonetic. It's spoken as it's written. So there isn't much of a, I don't know, but I could always understand everybody and people could hopefully understand me.

[Assistant] You just said something really interesting. You can't understand the culture unless you understand the language.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you had all this cultural training in Wisconsin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Swahili is a combination of Arabic and Bantu languages, which you probably know, and it was written down by missionaries. So it was pretty, it is pretty much phonetic. It's spoken as it's written. So there isn't much of a, I don't know, but I could always understand everybody and people could hopefully understand me.

[Assistant] You just said something really interesting. You can't understand the culture unless you understand the language.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you had all this cultural training in Wisconsin.

[User] But it wasn't really cultural training. It was history. It was history of the colonies, history of agriculture, economic history. And it wasn't really that much history of the people, except maybe Mau Mau, which of course, that's not really so much about individuals. That's much more a global concept.

[Assistant] Should Peace Corps have done more cultural training? Could they have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you had all this cultural training in Wisconsin.

[User] But it wasn't really cultural training. It was history. It was history of the colonies, history of agriculture, economic history. And it wasn't really that much history of the people, except maybe Mau Mau, which of course, that's not really so much about individuals. That's much more a global concept.

[Assistant] Should Peace Corps have done more cultural training? Could they have?

[User] I doubt it. You know, a lot of things you just learn on the ground.

[Assistant] Well, after we were in Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it wasn't really cultural training. It was history. It was history of the colonies, history of agriculture, economic history. And it wasn't really that much history of the people, except maybe Mau Mau, which of course, that's not really so much about individuals. That's much more a global concept.

[Assistant] Should Peace Corps have done more cultural training? Could they have?

[User] I doubt it. You know, a lot of things you just learn on the ground.

[Assistant] Well, after we were in Peace Corps.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They moved a lot of the training overseas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I doubt it. You know, a lot of things you just learn on the ground.

[Assistant] Well, after we were in Peace Corps.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They moved a lot of the training overseas.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So maybe that was really part of the movement to move you into the culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They moved a lot of the training overseas.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So maybe that was really part of the movement to move you into the culture.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. That would be the only way to do it, really, because how are you going to run into a Kikuyu woman carrying wood in Milwaukee?

[Assistant] Do you have any other interesting anecdotes about training or any thoughts about the effectiveness of the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So maybe that was really part of the movement to move you into the culture.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. That would be the only way to do it, really, because how are you going to run into a Kikuyu woman carrying wood in Milwaukee?

[Assistant] Do you have any other interesting anecdotes about training or any thoughts about the effectiveness of the training?

[User] Well, the Swahili was great training. I just, you know, I had to completely change. I think that the, all of the philosophical and the history, uh, it gave us a great background to understand something that, things that we really needed to understand. Because it was a British colony for a long time, as you well know, and there was still a lot of colonial people living there, colonials living there, lord and lady, this little lady that. And we worked with them. We had to work with them. And of course, they came from a very different kind of background than we did. And at the time, uh, this is in the sixties, you know, everybody was kind of against the colonists and the colonies and all the bad things that they did. But we. And you couldn't really understand much about them other than that until you worked with them and you realized that they, they came from a different background. They came from a different, um, point of view.

[Assistant] So you had two kinds of cultural experiences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. That would be the only way to do it, really, because how are you going to run into a Kikuyu woman carrying wood in Milwaukee?

[Assistant] Do you have any other interesting anecdotes about training or any thoughts about the effectiveness of the training?

[User] Well, the Swahili was great training. I just, you know, I had to completely change. I think that the, all of the philosophical and the history, uh, it gave us a great background to understand something that, things that we really needed to understand. Because it was a British colony for a long time, as you well know, and there was still a lot of colonial people living there, colonials living there, lord and lady, this little lady that. And we worked with them. We had to work with them. And of course, they came from a very different kind of background than we did. And at the time, uh, this is in the sixties, you know, everybody was kind of against the colonists and the colonies and all the bad things that they did. But we. And you couldn't really understand much about them other than that until you worked with them and you realized that they, they came from a different background. They came from a different, um, point of view.

[Assistant] So you had two kinds of cultural experiences.

[User] Oh yes, at least.

[Assistant] British colonialists as well as Kikuyu.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Swahili was great training. I just, you know, I had to completely change. I think that the, all of the philosophical and the history, uh, it gave us a great background to understand something that, things that we really needed to understand. Because it was a British colony for a long time, as you well know, and there was still a lot of colonial people living there, colonials living there, lord and lady, this little lady that. And we worked with them. We had to work with them. And of course, they came from a very different kind of background than we did. And at the time, uh, this is in the sixties, you know, everybody was kind of against the colonists and the colonies and all the bad things that they did. But we. And you couldn't really understand much about them other than that until you worked with them and you realized that they, they came from a different background. They came from a different, um, point of view.

[Assistant] So you had two kinds of cultural experiences.

[User] Oh yes, at least.

[Assistant] British colonialists as well as Kikuyu.

[User] Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And then there were, of course, other expats that lived, not near where we lived. There were only missionaries. Missionaries lived in Njabini and then also in Thomsons Falls, there were missionaries, and that was a completely different culture.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, at least.

[Assistant] British colonialists as well as Kikuyu.

[User] Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And then there were, of course, other expats that lived, not near where we lived. There were only missionaries. Missionaries lived in Njabini and then also in Thomsons Falls, there were missionaries, and that was a completely different culture.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about those.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What country were they from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What country were they from?

[User] Uh, U.S. And one group was Catholic and they were all priests and they were a lot of fun. They played a lot of cards and we lived way out, way out in the country. They lived near in the town. It wasn't a big town, but there were more than three buildings together, you know. So, um, Don was telling me he remembered that one of them made great apple pie. I didn't remember that part. But he remembers that. The Baptist missionaries were, uh, not quite so much fun. They were great to talk to, great to be with, uh, but not quite so much fun.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were definitely from the South. Then there were of course, there were as I said, there were all the expats that might not have had farms but had moved out there for one reason or another so.

[Assistant] Like the German doctor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, they have their own little community. Yeah. Well, one thing or another, another group that we learned a lot about, I would say, were the Indian, the Indian community. And there were Indians certainly who lived there. And we, when we would have a big party and we were kind of, since I was a woman and the other two women lived far away, we were kind of the parents of the group and we still are kind of the parents of the group. Uh. I can remember people coming, especially Indians. And I know this now because my daughter-in-law, one of my daughters-in-law, is Indian, that they would bring all their friends. So, you know, you would think you were having X number of people at a big party and you would have X number of people plus. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you, you knew how to cook, which also helped.

[User] Yes. And I had a house boy, we had a house. We all had house boys, because otherwise we just couldn't have done any of our other work.

[Assistant] Do you have fond memories of your houseboy? We had a house boyessa. We had a woman.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] I have fond memories of her. What was your guy like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I had a house boy, we had a house. We all had house boys, because otherwise we just couldn't have done any of our other work.

[Assistant] Do you have fond memories of your houseboy? We had a house boyessa. We had a woman.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] I have fond memories of her. What was your guy like?

[User] Well, I can tell you about two of them. I think we only had two. One in one place and one in the other. Okay. I remember Mwongi. Mwongi was our first houseboy and, um, he was a very nice guy and, um, did very well. And we all had a good time together. And then one day I asked, and he used to go to the store to buy things, you know, just down to the shop. And one day I gave him ten shillings to buy something and he never came back. He took the ten shillings and ran. Isn't that funny? Poor guy. He was obviously needing the money and wanting to get away.

[Assistant] But you would think that working for you produced more than ten shillings, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I can tell you about two of them. I think we only had two. One in one place and one in the other. Okay. I remember Mwongi. Mwongi was our first houseboy and, um, he was a very nice guy and, um, did very well. And we all had a good time together. And then one day I asked, and he used to go to the store to buy things, you know, just down to the shop. And one day I gave him ten shillings to buy something and he never came back. He took the ten shillings and ran. Isn't that funny? Poor guy. He was obviously needing the money and wanting to get away.

[Assistant] But you would think that working for you produced more than ten shillings, right?

[User] You think so, yes, you would think so. But you never know.

[Assistant] Just disappeared?

[User] Just disappeared. Just disappeared and never came back. And we, after he left, we found out that, we had liquor there. I don't know why, but I guess maybe some of the settlers drank liquor, and we discovered that he had been watering down the liquor.

[Assistant] And drinking it himself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You think so, yes, you would think so. But you never know.

[Assistant] Just disappeared?

[User] Just disappeared. Just disappeared and never came back. And we, after he left, we found out that, we had liquor there. I don't know why, but I guess maybe some of the settlers drank liquor, and we discovered that he had been watering down the liquor.

[Assistant] And drinking it himself?

[User] And drinking it himself. You know, how can you know all these things?

[Assistant] So that's number one. Now I can't wait to hear about number two.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And drinking it himself. You know, how can you know all these things?

[Assistant] So that's number one. Now I can't wait to hear about number two.

[User] Well, number two, uh, we thought he was really great and he was there. And when we left, I recommended him highly to this British family that lived way up north in the, I mean, we lived in, out in the boonies. But these people lived way out in the boonies. And when I came back, the first time I think I came back, which was a couple of years later, I learned that, no, they didn't like him at all. And they had let him go, that he didn't do a good enough job.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] You know, sometimes. At that time anyway, I used to think and I still do think that, you know, we have an apartment back here that's downstairs and back here so that we. [inaudible] No, no, I don't think so. Um. That, you know, Americans at that time were not nearly as exacting as the Brits were. And I was probably not that exacting because I was just, you know, a young person, pregnant, happy to have somebody to help with carrying the water and doing basic, basic cooking. So. So I don't have, no, my memories are not, they're not not fond, but they're not necessarily fond memories. Those were the only two house boys that we had.

[Assistant] Ah. So looking back at all of this, what do you think you accomplished in Kenya from a personal level? What did you get the exotic experience you were looking for? Learning about different cultures?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, number two, uh, we thought he was really great and he was there. And when we left, I recommended him highly to this British family that lived way up north in the, I mean, we lived in, out in the boonies. But these people lived way out in the boonies. And when I came back, the first time I think I came back, which was a couple of years later, I learned that, no, they didn't like him at all. And they had let him go, that he didn't do a good enough job.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] You know, sometimes. At that time anyway, I used to think and I still do think that, you know, we have an apartment back here that's downstairs and back here so that we. [inaudible] No, no, I don't think so. Um. That, you know, Americans at that time were not nearly as exacting as the Brits were. And I was probably not that exacting because I was just, you know, a young person, pregnant, happy to have somebody to help with carrying the water and doing basic, basic cooking. So. So I don't have, no, my memories are not, they're not not fond, but they're not necessarily fond memories. Those were the only two house boys that we had.

[Assistant] Ah. So looking back at all of this, what do you think you accomplished in Kenya from a personal level? What did you get the exotic experience you were looking for? Learning about different cultures?

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, I think.

[Assistant] What did it, what did it do for you? And then I'll ask, what did it do for the country? Or individuals.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did work. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So, uh, yeah. I mean, I do think that we, and we also helped Kenyans to know that there are different ways of looking at Americans. Um.

[Assistant] Did people talk to you about the Vietnam War at all? Was, were you a?

[User] The other members of the group did.

[Assistant] Well.

[User] All the time.

[Assistant] But expats or Kenyans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the time.

[Assistant] But expats or Kenyans?

[User] You know, they didn't. Right. So that is not my memory.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] Certainly other expats did, because it was right in the middle of the Vietnam War, as you probably had that, you might have had that experience also. But no, I don't remember that. But we.

[Assistant] So you didn't have to communicate an American point of view or contrary to American point of view?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, they didn't. Right. So that is not my memory.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] Certainly other expats did, because it was right in the middle of the Vietnam War, as you probably had that, you might have had that experience also. But no, I don't remember that. But we.

[Assistant] So you didn't have to communicate an American point of view or contrary to American point of view?

[User] No. Certainly when I lived in England, I did. But that was way after the Vietnam War but it was, you know, Iran and all that. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, no. The only had to do it with expats. But, you know, we were so far out of it, we didn't have, you know.

[Assistant] They didn't know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Certainly other expats did, because it was right in the middle of the Vietnam War, as you probably had that, you might have had that experience also. But no, I don't remember that. But we.

[Assistant] So you didn't have to communicate an American point of view or contrary to American point of view?

[User] No. Certainly when I lived in England, I did. But that was way after the Vietnam War but it was, you know, Iran and all that. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, no. The only had to do it with expats. But, you know, we were so far out of it, we didn't have, you know.

[Assistant] They didn't know?

[User] They didn't know. We used to get a Time magazine like once a week, one of us, and we would pass it around months late. And then we'd get together somehow, someplace, going somewhere together, and we'd have big discussions about the domino theory. And who was going to fall next. And Dien Bien Phu and, oh my God. On and on and on and on. So it certainly did really interest me in the world. My parents were very politically, uh, involved locally and very interested in politics, but I never got that interested until I went overseas.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I just lost the other question. So have you stayed in touch with Kenya at all or with other Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Certainly when I lived in England, I did. But that was way after the Vietnam War but it was, you know, Iran and all that. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, no. The only had to do it with expats. But, you know, we were so far out of it, we didn't have, you know.

[Assistant] They didn't know?

[User] They didn't know. We used to get a Time magazine like once a week, one of us, and we would pass it around months late. And then we'd get together somehow, someplace, going somewhere together, and we'd have big discussions about the domino theory. And who was going to fall next. And Dien Bien Phu and, oh my God. On and on and on and on. So it certainly did really interest me in the world. My parents were very politically, uh, involved locally and very interested in politics, but I never got that interested until I went overseas.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I just lost the other question. So have you stayed in touch with Kenya at all or with other Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] Oh, yeah. We've been back to Kenya only once. We went back with our kids when, our two older kids, when they were young, ten and seven I think. We have not been back since. We were all going to go back last year because there was a, was the 50th anniversary. But Peace Corps pulled out and, you know, so we did not go back and, uh, no, we haven't been back since. We lived over in Europe and we've been to lots of other places and we still would like to go back to Kenya.

[Assistant] Are you in touch with former Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. We've been back to Kenya only once. We went back with our kids when, our two older kids, when they were young, ten and seven I think. We have not been back since. We were all going to go back last year because there was a, was the 50th anniversary. But Peace Corps pulled out and, you know, so we did not go back and, uh, no, we haven't been back since. We lived over in Europe and we've been to lots of other places and we still would like to go back to Kenya.

[Assistant] Are you in touch with former Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] Oh, yes. You know, as I said, we are sort of the hub and we've had ourselves personally three different reunions at our house, McLean and here. We lived overseas for 14 years in Libya and England from '76 to '87, basically. No, that was in England, from '70 basically to '87. And then, um, but so since we've been back here, we have made an effort to get everybody together. And we see people like Mike Davidson and, uh, Dan Ritchie. I don't know if you know Dan Ritchie, he lives here. So Mike, Dan, me, Don, and Jim Connell. That's all. There are five of us who live here in this area, in this area. And then we stay in touch with Bill Sterling, who is out in Aspen. We're going to go, be seeing him soon. And Arthur Levy, who's in London now.

[Assistant] All former volunteers in Kenya I?

[User] All in our group. All Kenya I. Yeah, only Kenya I. I mean, we know other Peace Corps volunteers too, but I thought you were asking about Kenya I.

[Assistant] No, I was asking about Kenya I.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. You know, as I said, we are sort of the hub and we've had ourselves personally three different reunions at our house, McLean and here. We lived overseas for 14 years in Libya and England from '76 to '87, basically. No, that was in England, from '70 basically to '87. And then, um, but so since we've been back here, we have made an effort to get everybody together. And we see people like Mike Davidson and, uh, Dan Ritchie. I don't know if you know Dan Ritchie, he lives here. So Mike, Dan, me, Don, and Jim Connell. That's all. There are five of us who live here in this area, in this area. And then we stay in touch with Bill Sterling, who is out in Aspen. We're going to go, be seeing him soon. And Arthur Levy, who's in London now.

[Assistant] All former volunteers in Kenya I?

[User] All in our group. All Kenya I. Yeah, only Kenya I. I mean, we know other Peace Corps volunteers too, but I thought you were asking about Kenya I.

[Assistant] No, I was asking about Kenya I.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And has the Kenya group, I mean socially you've gotten together, but have you been involved with Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All in our group. All Kenya I. Yeah, only Kenya I. I mean, we know other Peace Corps volunteers too, but I thought you were asking about Kenya I.

[Assistant] No, I was asking about Kenya I.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And has the Kenya group, I mean socially you've gotten together, but have you been involved with Kenya?

[User] Not me.

[Assistant] With charity work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And has the Kenya group, I mean socially you've gotten together, but have you been involved with Kenya?

[User] Not me.

[Assistant] With charity work?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or development work since then? Have others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not me.

[Assistant] With charity work?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or development work since then? Have others?

[User] Well, some people. I've been, you know, I've been in nonprofits and run nonprofits, but they haven't been. I've been in international nonprofits but haven't been a head of them and have not done any traveling for that kind of work. Just for that kind of work. Oh, let's see. I think one person has a scholarship. But, uh. Yeah, I have. I have. Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah. I did some strategic planning for a group just last year, you know, pro bono.

[Assistant] Involved in Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some people. I've been, you know, I've been in nonprofits and run nonprofits, but they haven't been. I've been in international nonprofits but haven't been a head of them and have not done any traveling for that kind of work. Just for that kind of work. Oh, let's see. I think one person has a scholarship. But, uh. Yeah, I have. I have. Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah. I did some strategic planning for a group just last year, you know, pro bono.

[Assistant] Involved in Kenya?

[User] Yeah, involved in Kenya. Yes. Involved in heart transplants in little kids in Kenya. Yeah.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] And so I've been involved in raising money for them. Um. It's hard for me to remember all the different times I've been involved.

[Assistant] That's, that's fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, involved in Kenya. Yes. Involved in heart transplants in little kids in Kenya. Yeah.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] And so I've been involved in raising money for them. Um. It's hard for me to remember all the different times I've been involved.

[Assistant] That's, that's fine.

[User] But yeah, absolutely. You know, the Kenya embassy is right around the corner here. So we feel close to Kenya, although we don't stop in and talk to them. We did have a reunion there. That was fun. And we do keep in touch with all of the people who will keep us in touch with us. It's only about one or two people who don't want to keep in touch. Every group has, I don't know how many people you had in your group. We had 35.

[Assistant] We had, uh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I've been involved in raising money for them. Um. It's hard for me to remember all the different times I've been involved.

[Assistant] That's, that's fine.

[User] But yeah, absolutely. You know, the Kenya embassy is right around the corner here. So we feel close to Kenya, although we don't stop in and talk to them. We did have a reunion there. That was fun. And we do keep in touch with all of the people who will keep us in touch with us. It's only about one or two people who don't want to keep in touch. Every group has, I don't know how many people you had in your group. We had 35.

[Assistant] We had, uh.

[User] There were 35.

[Assistant] Something like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But yeah, absolutely. You know, the Kenya embassy is right around the corner here. So we feel close to Kenya, although we don't stop in and talk to them. We did have a reunion there. That was fun. And we do keep in touch with all of the people who will keep us in touch with us. It's only about one or two people who don't want to keep in touch. Every group has, I don't know how many people you had in your group. We had 35.

[Assistant] We had, uh.

[User] There were 35.

[Assistant] Something like that.

[User] I see. Yeah, they were pretty small groups.

[Assistant] They were small, small groups. We've kind of merged all of the Somalia groups because they weren't so many of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were 35.

[Assistant] Something like that.

[User] I see. Yeah, they were pretty small groups.

[Assistant] They were small, small groups. We've kind of merged all of the Somalia groups because they weren't so many of them.

[User] Right, yeah.

[Assistant] So we've gotten to know other people from other groups as well. But there were many more in Kenya than in Somalia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, yeah.

[Assistant] So we've gotten to know other people from other groups as well. But there were many more in Kenya than in Somalia.

[User] Yes. We know other Kenya volunteers too. We do. And we've sort of kept up with them. Yes, absolutely. We've been very involved in a, um, a documentary that's being made about Kenya. It's called The Towering Task. I think you might maybe might have mentioned it.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We're helping the producer. Yeah.

[Assistant] Are there any things that you want to say that I didn't ask you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We know other Kenya volunteers too. We do. And we've sort of kept up with them. Yes, absolutely. We've been very involved in a, um, a documentary that's being made about Kenya. It's called The Towering Task. I think you might maybe might have mentioned it.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We're helping the producer. Yeah.

[Assistant] Are there any things that you want to say that I didn't ask you?

[User]
Let me see. Well, it certainly was, I mean, it's so banal to say this, but it definitely was a life changing experience. There's no question about it. It was a way I wanted to have my life change because I wanted to understand better how people lived in various countries around the world. And I wanted to be exposed to all of that and I wanted to be able to travel.

Now, I think that the fact that we were in the Peace Corps certainly changed our family's life as well, obviously, because then we lived overseas after that. We came back here, then we lived in Libya, and then we lived in England. So that the kids, our three children, have an international outlook. All of them do, although none of them were in the Peace Corps. They all did some kind of volunteer work, two of them in Japan, one of them here in the States, after college. They all, and actually everybody is, they all are. It's very interesting. All the three kids are in either government or nonprofit. And their wives, yeah, one is a doctor and one's a lawyer, but they're all in service work, which is interesting. Some kind of service.

[Assistant] So it goes on from one generation to the next.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're helping the producer. Yeah.

[Assistant] Are there any things that you want to say that I didn't ask you?

[User]
Let me see. Well, it certainly was, I mean, it's so banal to say this, but it definitely was a life changing experience. There's no question about it. It was a way I wanted to have my life change because I wanted to understand better how people lived in various countries around the world. And I wanted to be exposed to all of that and I wanted to be able to travel.

Now, I think that the fact that we were in the Peace Corps certainly changed our family's life as well, obviously, because then we lived overseas after that. We came back here, then we lived in Libya, and then we lived in England. So that the kids, our three children, have an international outlook. All of them do, although none of them were in the Peace Corps. They all did some kind of volunteer work, two of them in Japan, one of them here in the States, after college. They all, and actually everybody is, they all are. It's very interesting. All the three kids are in either government or nonprofit. And their wives, yeah, one is a doctor and one's a lawyer, but they're all in service work, which is interesting. Some kind of service.

[Assistant] So it goes on from one generation to the next.

[User] Well, I don't know, maybe.

[Assistant] Well, it's not appropriate for this interview, but at the same thing happened in our family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know, maybe.

[Assistant] Well, it's not appropriate for this interview, but at the same thing happened in our family.

[User] In your family too. Yes.

[Assistant] Most definitely.

[User] Yes. Yes. So, um.

[Assistant] Well, I thank you. This has been a really good interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In your family too. Yes.

[Assistant] Most definitely.

[User] Yes. Yes. So, um.

[Assistant] Well, I thank you. This has been a really good interview.

[User] Well, thank you. I hope that I've given you the kinds of things that you want.

[Assistant] Oh, definitely. And it'll be archived and other people can access it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if it's still there.

[Assistant] The original one is still there, but it's no longer being used. They built a new one for the Shuttle missions.

[User] Oh, no. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, okay. I understand that. I thought you meant the offices. Yes, the control center, I'm sure they still use it, don't they, for something?\n\n [Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

[Assistant] The one that they built at that time is no longer being used.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] That's right. About midway through the Shuttle Program they built a new one, but the other one is still there, and now they're refurbishing it to meet the Apollo 11 configuration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '81. That's a long time.

[Assistant] Yes. If I could, I'd like to backtrack a little bit and ask you a few questions.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] I had a few points here and there. You spent most of your time with NASA as an employee of Goddard, but working at the Manned Spacecraft Center, the Johnson Space Center. Did that create any problems, or were there any issues with that, and how often did you spend actually back at Goddard, if any time at all?

[User] Oh, yes, I'd go back there every couple of months and spend a week, talk to the guys and get up to speed on anything new that was happening, and show the flag, you know, show my face, that I still worked there. If you don't, people kind of forget, they forget to call you, and you can't have that. You've got to know everything that's going on.\n\n Like I mentioned, I was going to tell you about this guy Clark. He called one day, and I don't know whether he'd ever talked to Covington about this or not, and he said, "I want you to talk to Kraft and see if they will take the network."\n\n God, I almost fell out of my chair. I said, "Are you sure that's what you want?"\n\n He said, "Yes." He said, "Call me back as soon as you can."\n\n So Chris and I usually had lunch three or four times a week, and so I asked he and Sig. They didn't want it then. They did ten years earlier, but at that point in time they didn't want it. I don't know if anybody ever knew that that happened. I don't think so. I never told any of the guys. They would have really been upset. The Goddard guys, that is. I never told them anything. I never told any of the JSC guys, outside of Chris and Sig.

[Assistant] Why were they looking to divest themselves of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] While we're talking about events, do you remember some of the later ones, such as the landing and first EVA [extravehicular activity] on Apollo 11?

[User] Yes. I was in the viewing room. Have you been in that viewing room, the old viewing room?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You're facing—there's a little telephone booth-like place over on the right. I was leaning up against that, sitting on the floor, and Kenny [Kenneth S.] Kleinknecht was behind me. He was asleep. When they finally started landing, I woke him up, and the place was packed. You could have heard a pin drop. The room was designed for probably 60 people, and it probably had 150 in there. Late at night, everybody was dead. But that, to me, probably was the most exciting time I've ever had at NASA, when they started landing. There was no other feeling like that. It was like watching a man, some snake trainer, put his hand on a cobra, anything can happen any minute and probably will, but it didn't, thank God.

[Assistant] If you look back on your career as a whole, both with NASA and before you joined the space program, what do you regard as your greatest accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was in the viewing room. Have you been in that viewing room, the old viewing room?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You're facing—there's a little telephone booth-like place over on the right. I was leaning up against that, sitting on the floor, and Kenny [Kenneth S.] Kleinknecht was behind me. He was asleep. When they finally started landing, I woke him up, and the place was packed. You could have heard a pin drop. The room was designed for probably 60 people, and it probably had 150 in there. Late at night, everybody was dead. But that, to me, probably was the most exciting time I've ever had at NASA, when they started landing. There was no other feeling like that. It was like watching a man, some snake trainer, put his hand on a cobra, anything can happen any minute and probably will, but it didn't, thank God.

[Assistant] If you look back on your career as a whole, both with NASA and before you joined the space program, what do you regard as your greatest accomplishment?

[User] That's hard to say. You know, I didn't invent anything. I didn't fly any airplanes. The only thing that I ever did that was meaningful to the space program was try to get everything, help everything coordinated and going in one direction. I didn't have a lot of people working for me, just a few. All I ever tried to do was keep the wheels turning. I guess I did that to some degree. There's nothing that stands out that—

[Assistant] That itself is an accomplishment, given the difficulties of that at the time, particularly early on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's hard to say. You know, I didn't invent anything. I didn't fly any airplanes. The only thing that I ever did that was meaningful to the space program was try to get everything, help everything coordinated and going in one direction. I didn't have a lot of people working for me, just a few. All I ever tried to do was keep the wheels turning. I guess I did that to some degree. There's nothing that stands out that—

[Assistant] That itself is an accomplishment, given the difficulties of that at the time, particularly early on.

[User] I'm not even sure they have anybody there doing that now. In fact, I would doubt they do. I don't know what he would do. All these people, I got to be friends with them and know them well. [Neil A.] Armstrong became a friend. When he was announced, his group was announced, we were all at the Colony Seven Motel. That's where they did it, at Cocoa Beach [Florida]. I don't think it's there anymore. It was about noon and we were in the bar area. There was some reporters all around. He was there, and I got to talk to him. I said, "You're coming in at the perfect time." I said, "You've got a great chance to be the first man on the Moon." [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's remarkably prescient.

[User] He mentioned that to me a couple of times. He didn't think so. I knew [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin. Aldrin was very upset that he was not the first man on the Moon, very, very upset. His father was even more upset. His father was a general, I think, in the Army. But I don't know if that story ever was discussed by anyone or not.

[Assistant] In one of Buzz Aldrin's books, I think he talks about that a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not even sure they have anybody there doing that now. In fact, I would doubt they do. I don't know what he would do. All these people, I got to be friends with them and know them well. [Neil A.] Armstrong became a friend. When he was announced, his group was announced, we were all at the Colony Seven Motel. That's where they did it, at Cocoa Beach [Florida]. I don't think it's there anymore. It was about noon and we were in the bar area. There was some reporters all around. He was there, and I got to talk to him. I said, "You're coming in at the perfect time." I said, "You've got a great chance to be the first man on the Moon." [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's remarkably prescient.

[User] He mentioned that to me a couple of times. He didn't think so. I knew [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin. Aldrin was very upset that he was not the first man on the Moon, very, very upset. His father was even more upset. His father was a general, I think, in the Army. But I don't know if that story ever was discussed by anyone or not.

[Assistant] In one of Buzz Aldrin's books, I think he talks about that a little bit.

[User] Yes. He'd talk about it more with a drink in his hand.

[Assistant] Well, that's usually the case with a lot of people, I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He mentioned that to me a couple of times. He didn't think so. I knew [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin. Aldrin was very upset that he was not the first man on the Moon, very, very upset. His father was even more upset. His father was a general, I think, in the Army. But I don't know if that story ever was discussed by anyone or not.

[Assistant] In one of Buzz Aldrin's books, I think he talks about that a little bit.

[User] Yes. He'd talk about it more with a drink in his hand.

[Assistant] Well, that's usually the case with a lot of people, I think.

[User] He felt that Kraft and those guys shafted him, but they, as far as I was concerned, they didn't shaft him, he was campaigning for it so hard, everybody's wondered "What's the deal here? Why does he want—" He wanted his name to be first. His father campaigned with—there was heavy pressure from the congressmen to do that, but they didn't do it.\n\n After the flight, he lived in Nassau Bay there, and I was at a cocktail party at his house, his wife really upset. She was bending my ear because she said nobody would offer a Buzz a job. I didn't know anything about that. I said, "He probably wants to be president of the company. I'm sure he wouldn't take a job as an engineer. He'd want something big." But as far as I know, Buzz never did go to work for anybody in a big job. Really, neither did Armstrong.

[Assistant] He's remained a pretty private person since then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He'd talk about it more with a drink in his hand.

[Assistant] Well, that's usually the case with a lot of people, I think.

[User] He felt that Kraft and those guys shafted him, but they, as far as I was concerned, they didn't shaft him, he was campaigning for it so hard, everybody's wondered "What's the deal here? Why does he want—" He wanted his name to be first. His father campaigned with—there was heavy pressure from the congressmen to do that, but they didn't do it.\n\n After the flight, he lived in Nassau Bay there, and I was at a cocktail party at his house, his wife really upset. She was bending my ear because she said nobody would offer a Buzz a job. I didn't know anything about that. I said, "He probably wants to be president of the company. I'm sure he wouldn't take a job as an engineer. He'd want something big." But as far as I know, Buzz never did go to work for anybody in a big job. Really, neither did Armstrong.

[Assistant] He's remained a pretty private person since then.

[User] Very, very private. We've talked about that a lot in the past, he could have been a millionaire, done anything he wanted to do. As far as I know, he never wrote a book. Is he on your list to interview?

[Assistant] He is. We hope to interview him sometime in the near future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He felt that Kraft and those guys shafted him, but they, as far as I was concerned, they didn't shaft him, he was campaigning for it so hard, everybody's wondered "What's the deal here? Why does he want—" He wanted his name to be first. His father campaigned with—there was heavy pressure from the congressmen to do that, but they didn't do it.\n\n After the flight, he lived in Nassau Bay there, and I was at a cocktail party at his house, his wife really upset. She was bending my ear because she said nobody would offer a Buzz a job. I didn't know anything about that. I said, "He probably wants to be president of the company. I'm sure he wouldn't take a job as an engineer. He'd want something big." But as far as I know, Buzz never did go to work for anybody in a big job. Really, neither did Armstrong.

[Assistant] He's remained a pretty private person since then.

[User] Very, very private. We've talked about that a lot in the past, he could have been a millionaire, done anything he wanted to do. As far as I know, he never wrote a book. Is he on your list to interview?

[Assistant] He is. We hope to interview him sometime in the near future.

[User] I think it'd be great if he wrote a book, but he's not going to do it. He's just that kind of a guy. I remember he never had any money. My wife sold his house down in Seabrook and he needed the money out of it. I though, jeez, here's a guy that landed on the Moon, somebody should be giving him some money. It didn't work that way.\n\n What else can we talk about?

[Assistant]
I think that's most of the questions that I had, but I would like to give Rebecca a chance to ask any questions, if she's come up with any.

I have a couple. You mentioned going down to the Cape and being in the control room, or being in control of the control center in some of the missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very, very private. We've talked about that a lot in the past, he could have been a millionaire, done anything he wanted to do. As far as I know, he never wrote a book. Is he on your list to interview?

[Assistant] He is. We hope to interview him sometime in the near future.

[User] I think it'd be great if he wrote a book, but he's not going to do it. He's just that kind of a guy. I remember he never had any money. My wife sold his house down in Seabrook and he needed the money out of it. I though, jeez, here's a guy that landed on the Moon, somebody should be giving him some money. It didn't work that way.\n\n What else can we talk about?

[Assistant]
I think that's most of the questions that I had, but I would like to give Rebecca a chance to ask any questions, if she's come up with any.

I have a couple. You mentioned going down to the Cape and being in the control room, or being in control of the control center in some of the missions.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you elaborate a little bit more about what those duties were, how many people were there? What's your whole perception of having that responsibility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What a legacy. Piece of work. There are not many of those kind of guys left. I don't know of any. But there was some pieces of work out there.

[Assistant] While you're speaking of people, you've mentioned many names. Did you have any dealings with Bob Gilruth?

[User] No, not an awful lot. Gilruth stayed away from the tracking and data. He just left that with Chris altogether. He didn't seem to be interested. I knew him and talked to him, but he never wanted to talk about it. Never. He'd just say, "You guys, you and Chris got it going all right?"\n\n "Yes, doing fine."\n\n And that's all he wanted to know. Never got involved in any of the technical workings. Didn't seem to interest him.

[Assistant] Did your travels take you to any of the sites?

[User] Yes. Yes, I went to quite a few of the sites. At one time—let's see, I think there's an astronaut there now. I was going to Australia to be the NASA rep out of Headquarters, and I got a little resistance on the home front. Joyce didn't really want to go. I didn't want to go without her. I vacillated a while there. I can't remember the astronaut's name that they sent. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd know it if I heard it. By that time lots of them were coming in.\n\n I probably left too quick. If I hadn't had that company, I probably would have stayed another couple of years. I don't know what I would have done, but I might have taken the job in Australia then.

[Assistant] What were some of the other sites that you had a chance to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not an awful lot. Gilruth stayed away from the tracking and data. He just left that with Chris altogether. He didn't seem to be interested. I knew him and talked to him, but he never wanted to talk about it. Never. He'd just say, "You guys, you and Chris got it going all right?"\n\n "Yes, doing fine."\n\n And that's all he wanted to know. Never got involved in any of the technical workings. Didn't seem to interest him.

[Assistant] Did your travels take you to any of the sites?

[User] Yes. Yes, I went to quite a few of the sites. At one time—let's see, I think there's an astronaut there now. I was going to Australia to be the NASA rep out of Headquarters, and I got a little resistance on the home front. Joyce didn't really want to go. I didn't want to go without her. I vacillated a while there. I can't remember the astronaut's name that they sent. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd know it if I heard it. By that time lots of them were coming in.\n\n I probably left too quick. If I hadn't had that company, I probably would have stayed another couple of years. I don't know what I would have done, but I might have taken the job in Australia then.

[Assistant] What were some of the other sites that you had a chance to—

[User] I went to South America, down the chain there. We had a station at Lima, Peru, and Santiago, Chile. Then the ships, a couple of the ships were down there, and I went out on the ships. That was something. Down the Florida chain, the stations.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of the facilities or some of the conditions that those guys were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wouldn't be me. Somebody would have done it anyway. I enjoyed that kind of work. When I look back on my career, that's all I ever did. I never really did anything as far as building an engineering group or working on this piece of equipment and designing something new, or running an organization that was operations or whatever. I never did that. All I ever did was deal with people. That's about it.

[Assistant] I have one last duty and role question to ask you. You said Tec Roberts took your job when you left. Could you tell us what you were doing at that time that he moved over from the network job to come to Houston?

[User] You know, I'm still officially at Vandenberg, but knowing what I told you a while ago, I knew that that was going to be a dead dodo soon. I got out, but I was officially still at Vandenberg. Chris and Tec were very, very close, so he had no compunction about offering a seat in his suite there to Tec, and Goddard had no compunction about offering him the job, since he wanted it. It was funny, though. We did that kind of round-robin thing there over the years. Might be interesting to check when you get back to see if they have a Goddard rep. I doubt if they do.

[Assistant] I'll have to look into that for you and get back with you.

[User] It'd be in the phone book.

[Assistant] I guess looking back, the decision not to go to the gunnery division was a good one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'm still officially at Vandenberg, but knowing what I told you a while ago, I knew that that was going to be a dead dodo soon. I got out, but I was officially still at Vandenberg. Chris and Tec were very, very close, so he had no compunction about offering a seat in his suite there to Tec, and Goddard had no compunction about offering him the job, since he wanted it. It was funny, though. We did that kind of round-robin thing there over the years. Might be interesting to check when you get back to see if they have a Goddard rep. I doubt if they do.

[Assistant] I'll have to look into that for you and get back with you.

[User] It'd be in the phone book.

[Assistant] I guess looking back, the decision not to go to the gunnery division was a good one.

[User] It was made for me. I didn't get a chance to make it.

[Assistant] But it resulted in good for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It'd be in the phone book.

[Assistant] I guess looking back, the decision not to go to the gunnery division was a good one.

[User] It was made for me. I didn't get a chance to make it.

[Assistant] But it resulted in good for you.

[User] Yes. I wouldn't be here, I don't think. No way. Those were bad days.

[Assistant] I'd like to give you an opportunity to fill in anything else we may not have covered, or if there's any other stories you want to tell or people you might want to mention that you didn't think of at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was made for me. I didn't get a chance to make it.

[Assistant] But it resulted in good for you.

[User] Yes. I wouldn't be here, I don't think. No way. Those were bad days.

[Assistant] I'd like to give you an opportunity to fill in anything else we may not have covered, or if there's any other stories you want to tell or people you might want to mention that you didn't think of at the time.

[User] If you could find him, if he's still alive, Ozro M. Covington, that would be a great guy to interview. He lives in Texas if he's alive, I think up around Nacogdoches, somewhere in that area, on a lake. Ozzie would be, oh, God, he'd be eighty-four or five. I don't know. I doubt if he's alive. Do you run across any of these people on your list that are dead? I can see some of them are dead here.

[Assistant] The list that we provided for you are the ones that we've already talked to. Those are actual participants in the project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I wouldn't be here, I don't think. No way. Those were bad days.

[Assistant] I'd like to give you an opportunity to fill in anything else we may not have covered, or if there's any other stories you want to tell or people you might want to mention that you didn't think of at the time.

[User] If you could find him, if he's still alive, Ozro M. Covington, that would be a great guy to interview. He lives in Texas if he's alive, I think up around Nacogdoches, somewhere in that area, on a lake. Ozzie would be, oh, God, he'd be eighty-four or five. I don't know. I doubt if he's alive. Do you run across any of these people on your list that are dead? I can see some of them are dead here.

[Assistant] The list that we provided for you are the ones that we've already talked to. Those are actual participants in the project.

[User] Oh, good. Good. Yes, it's like everything else, I read an article in the paper the other day that said something like 10,000 people a month from World War II are dying out. There won't be many of them left shortly. It's hard to believe. It seems like yesterday. But I didn't think I'd live to be seventy-four. If I'd known I was going to live that long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

[Assistant] I'd like to thank you for participating today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you could find him, if he's still alive, Ozro M. Covington, that would be a great guy to interview. He lives in Texas if he's alive, I think up around Nacogdoches, somewhere in that area, on a lake. Ozzie would be, oh, God, he'd be eighty-four or five. I don't know. I doubt if he's alive. Do you run across any of these people on your list that are dead? I can see some of them are dead here.

[Assistant] The list that we provided for you are the ones that we've already talked to. Those are actual participants in the project.

[User] Oh, good. Good. Yes, it's like everything else, I read an article in the paper the other day that said something like 10,000 people a month from World War II are dying out. There won't be many of them left shortly. It's hard to believe. It seems like yesterday. But I didn't think I'd live to be seventy-four. If I'd known I was going to live that long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

[Assistant] I'd like to thank you for participating today.

[User] My pleasure. I know this is not a very exciting one, and I don't think you're going to get many people that want to listen to it, but—

[Assistant] Oh, we've learned lots of details that we haven't had before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, good. Good. Yes, it's like everything else, I read an article in the paper the other day that said something like 10,000 people a month from World War II are dying out. There won't be many of them left shortly. It's hard to believe. It seems like yesterday. But I didn't think I'd live to be seventy-four. If I'd known I was going to live that long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

[Assistant] I'd like to thank you for participating today.

[User] My pleasure. I know this is not a very exciting one, and I don't think you're going to get many people that want to listen to it, but—

[Assistant] Oh, we've learned lots of details that we haven't had before.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant]
That is.

That's what the project hopes to accomplish each time we talk to someone is to get one more piece that hasn't been recorded before, and I believe you've been able to fill in some of those spots. When you get your transcript back, if you feel like you can add a little bit more, than please do so. We'd be glad to have as much as you'll offer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure. I know this is not a very exciting one, and I don't think you're going to get many people that want to listen to it, but—

[Assistant] Oh, we've learned lots of details that we haven't had before.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant]
That is.

That's what the project hopes to accomplish each time we talk to someone is to get one more piece that hasn't been recorded before, and I believe you've been able to fill in some of those spots. When you get your transcript back, if you feel like you can add a little bit more, than please do so. We'd be glad to have as much as you'll offer.

[User] Sure, be glad to. Yes, sometimes I think of a gem.

[Assistant] If it's one you can share, we'd like to have it. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant]
That is.

That's what the project hopes to accomplish each time we talk to someone is to get one more piece that hasn't been recorded before, and I believe you've been able to fill in some of those spots. When you get your transcript back, if you feel like you can add a little bit more, than please do so. We'd be glad to have as much as you'll offer.

[User] Sure, be glad to. Yes, sometimes I think of a gem.

[Assistant] If it's one you can share, we'd like to have it. [Laughter]

[User] Okay. [Laughter] It has to be clean, huh?

[Assistant] Well, it has to be something you want to share.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, be glad to. Yes, sometimes I think of a gem.

[Assistant] If it's one you can share, we'd like to have it. [Laughter]

[User] Okay. [Laughter] It has to be clean, huh?

[Assistant] Well, it has to be something you want to share.

[User] Yes. You know, I guess the most interesting is I got to meet everybody, like [Robert L.] Crippen, he and I are very close. I was amazed when he became administrator. How in the hell was this guy that I go out drinking with, how could he be administrator? He don't know enough. He's a Texas boy. His mother ran a beer joint up in the county beyond Harris County, the next one up north.

[Assistant] Waller or Montgomery?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You know, I guess the most interesting is I got to meet everybody, like [Robert L.] Crippen, he and I are very close. I was amazed when he became administrator. How in the hell was this guy that I go out drinking with, how could he be administrator? He don't know enough. He's a Texas boy. His mother ran a beer joint up in the county beyond Harris County, the next one up north.

[Assistant] Waller or Montgomery?

[User] I'd say Montgomery. She had a beer joint that had no name, and she served beer and sandwiches. I went in up there one time with him. Unreal. But he was a character. I don't mean in a bad way. All these people were their own men.\n\n I got to know Shepard real well. I played golf, and all the golfers stuck together. When I first went there, I started playing golf. They needed a foursome with Sjoberg and Kraft and Bob Thompson, and I was on a foursome with them for ten or twelve years.\n\n Then Chris and I joined another club, Golf Crest, which is out at Pearland and we joined it. I joined it when it was still up there in South Houston. I can't remember what street it was on. They sold it and built a new one, opened in 1970. He and I joined up there, well, it was '65. So I knew all these guys by playing golf with them. They're more close knit. They go on outings together and stick together. Dick [Richard S.] Johnston. I don't know if you interviewed Dick or not.

[Assistant] We did.

[User] Dick has suffered some ill health. I don't know how he is.

[Assistant] I haven't heard recently.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd say Montgomery. She had a beer joint that had no name, and she served beer and sandwiches. I went in up there one time with him. Unreal. But he was a character. I don't mean in a bad way. All these people were their own men.\n\n I got to know Shepard real well. I played golf, and all the golfers stuck together. When I first went there, I started playing golf. They needed a foursome with Sjoberg and Kraft and Bob Thompson, and I was on a foursome with them for ten or twelve years.\n\n Then Chris and I joined another club, Golf Crest, which is out at Pearland and we joined it. I joined it when it was still up there in South Houston. I can't remember what street it was on. They sold it and built a new one, opened in 1970. He and I joined up there, well, it was '65. So I knew all these guys by playing golf with them. They're more close knit. They go on outings together and stick together. Dick [Richard S.] Johnston. I don't know if you interviewed Dick or not.

[Assistant] We did.

[User] Dick has suffered some ill health. I don't know how he is.

[Assistant] I haven't heard recently.

[User] He's not doing well. Dick was part of our group out there and Sjoberg. Sjoberg finally quite playing, though. But anyway, Chris and I used to be partners in tournaments and we'd go all over the country down through there playing in golf tournaments. So anyway, you get close to people when you do all that.

[Assistant] Was that a time for relaxation, or did you talk shop while you all were on the golf course?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dick has suffered some ill health. I don't know how he is.

[Assistant] I haven't heard recently.

[User] He's not doing well. Dick was part of our group out there and Sjoberg. Sjoberg finally quite playing, though. But anyway, Chris and I used to be partners in tournaments and we'd go all over the country down through there playing in golf tournaments. So anyway, you get close to people when you do all that.

[Assistant] Was that a time for relaxation, or did you talk shop while you all were on the golf course?

[User] Oh, sometimes if we needed something, we'd talk. Plenty of time going there and back and on the course. He'd get invited, as a famous guy, he'd get invited to a lot of places, and invite me along to go with him, even though I didn't work for the center. He always said he needed somebody that he didn't control to bounce ideas off. I didn't work for him, so I didn't have to listen to what he said. I could argue with him about things, where if I worked for him, I couldn't do that.\n\n In fact, the secretary that he had, the last one, he had a couple of other girls that really wanted that job bad, and he asked me to head up a group of three people to select him a new secretary. We selected this girl and he told everybody that I did it so that they didn't have any argument about it, because it was a very coveted job. This girl was great. Betty Sue Fedderson. There'd be one to interview. She was Chris' secretary for many years. She lives there in Nassau Bay.

[Assistant] Was that quite an adjustment for you to move to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was always motivated very young by Kennedy. There was, I used to. When I was 14 years old, 13, whatever, I followed Kennedy speeches. I listened to him. I was, I was very taken by them.

[Assistant] And where were you in 1960?

[User] In New York, I was actually on, I lived on Long Island, in Jericho, Long Island. And I was politically motivated. I was president of my class and all that. And I edited my newspaper and.

[Assistant] You went to high school on Long Island?

[User] On Long Island, yeah, Jericho High School. And actually, when Kennedy died in '63, I was in, I was in Washington when that happened. And I visited the gravesite with my class. And I have a picture still framed of me at the, with the eternal flame and all that. So the idea of the Peace Corps was always very strong with me, and it had a lot to do with the idealism that Kennedy represented and what he brought. However, by the time I was ready to go into the Peace Corps or even consider it, we had a war going on.

[Assistant] Let's go from high school then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In New York, I was actually on, I lived on Long Island, in Jericho, Long Island. And I was politically motivated. I was president of my class and all that. And I edited my newspaper and.

[Assistant] You went to high school on Long Island?

[User] On Long Island, yeah, Jericho High School. And actually, when Kennedy died in '63, I was in, I was in Washington when that happened. And I visited the gravesite with my class. And I have a picture still framed of me at the, with the eternal flame and all that. So the idea of the Peace Corps was always very strong with me, and it had a lot to do with the idealism that Kennedy represented and what he brought. However, by the time I was ready to go into the Peace Corps or even consider it, we had a war going on.

[Assistant] Let's go from high school then.

[User] From high school I went to college. I went to UCLA.

[Assistant] And during this time in college, did you do anything related to travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On Long Island, yeah, Jericho High School. And actually, when Kennedy died in '63, I was in, I was in Washington when that happened. And I visited the gravesite with my class. And I have a picture still framed of me at the, with the eternal flame and all that. So the idea of the Peace Corps was always very strong with me, and it had a lot to do with the idealism that Kennedy represented and what he brought. However, by the time I was ready to go into the Peace Corps or even consider it, we had a war going on.

[Assistant] Let's go from high school then.

[User] From high school I went to college. I went to UCLA.

[Assistant] And during this time in college, did you do anything related to travel?

[User] I went to, no, the only. I did travel. I spent one summer in Europe. I spent, I think I had $300. And I think I went for three months throughout Europe, Spain and France and England. And it was quite an interesting, Italy, experience to me. And I must have seen every cathedral and every museum that you could possibly do at that time.

[Assistant] Did you do any volunteer work during the year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From high school I went to college. I went to UCLA.

[Assistant] And during this time in college, did you do anything related to travel?

[User] I went to, no, the only. I did travel. I spent one summer in Europe. I spent, I think I had $300. And I think I went for three months throughout Europe, Spain and France and England. And it was quite an interesting, Italy, experience to me. And I must have seen every cathedral and every museum that you could possibly do at that time.

[Assistant] Did you do any volunteer work during the year?

[User] Not really. Not that I can remember. I was very occupied as a writer. I became the editor of UCLA's humor magazine, satirical magazine, called Satyr, S-A-T-Y-R. And, um. And, uh, I didn't have much of a staff, so I did a lot of the, most of the magazine myself. But I, you know, I had an art director and all that stuff and it paid me. I was able to, I mean, I had a budget, so I was able to get a salary. At that time, I think I made $150 a month and that paid for my $90 apartment and some of my food and expenses and stuff.

[Assistant] And what were you studying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to, no, the only. I did travel. I spent one summer in Europe. I spent, I think I had $300. And I think I went for three months throughout Europe, Spain and France and England. And it was quite an interesting, Italy, experience to me. And I must have seen every cathedral and every museum that you could possibly do at that time.

[Assistant] Did you do any volunteer work during the year?

[User] Not really. Not that I can remember. I was very occupied as a writer. I became the editor of UCLA's humor magazine, satirical magazine, called Satyr, S-A-T-Y-R. And, um. And, uh, I didn't have much of a staff, so I did a lot of the, most of the magazine myself. But I, you know, I had an art director and all that stuff and it paid me. I was able to, I mean, I had a budget, so I was able to get a salary. At that time, I think I made $150 a month and that paid for my $90 apartment and some of my food and expenses and stuff.

[Assistant] And what were you studying?

[User] And I majored. I started as a political science major, and I moved over to English by my sophomore year. I was more interested in literature, and so I majored in English and I started writing a novel actually while I was in at UCLA and finished it before I left. And then the last year, I mean, as the war got intensified in Vietnam, there was much more of a concern about what one does. I was thinking of going to graduate school, and at that time, San Francisco State, I think, had the best writing program, and I was very interested in attending that. But I also knew that unless you were going into medical school, I don't think you're going to get deferred.

[Assistant] This was '67?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I majored. I started as a political science major, and I moved over to English by my sophomore year. I was more interested in literature, and so I majored in English and I started writing a novel actually while I was in at UCLA and finished it before I left. And then the last year, I mean, as the war got intensified in Vietnam, there was much more of a concern about what one does. I was thinking of going to graduate school, and at that time, San Francisco State, I think, had the best writing program, and I was very interested in attending that. But I also knew that unless you were going into medical school, I don't think you're going to get deferred.

[Assistant] This was '67?

[User] '67, '68, yeah, '68. The June of '68.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So, um, so I, as I started to realize that, um, there was a situation here that I had to make some decisions about. What I realized also was that I was a conscientious objector. I just objected to the nature of war itself. And I started to do a lot of research. I spoke to rabbis, I spoke to priests, I spoke to, I remember speaking to a Yale graduate who, um, I think he even had his doctorate, who worked as a tree trimmer. And I remember spending a lot of time with this man because he said to me, it was the only job he could see that didn't contribute to the war in some effort. And know this this didn't do it.

[Assistant] This was during your senior year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '67, '68, yeah, '68. The June of '68.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So, um, so I, as I started to realize that, um, there was a situation here that I had to make some decisions about. What I realized also was that I was a conscientious objector. I just objected to the nature of war itself. And I started to do a lot of research. I spoke to rabbis, I spoke to priests, I spoke to, I remember speaking to a Yale graduate who, um, I think he even had his doctorate, who worked as a tree trimmer. And I remember spending a lot of time with this man because he said to me, it was the only job he could see that didn't contribute to the war in some effort. And know this this didn't do it.

[Assistant] This was during your senior year?

[User] This was during my senior year most likely. And, um, although maybe it was towards junior senior year because I remember applying to the Peace Corps, but still took about a six, nine month process or something, you know, once you applied.

[Assistant] Do you remember which board you were registered with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um, so I, as I started to realize that, um, there was a situation here that I had to make some decisions about. What I realized also was that I was a conscientious objector. I just objected to the nature of war itself. And I started to do a lot of research. I spoke to rabbis, I spoke to priests, I spoke to, I remember speaking to a Yale graduate who, um, I think he even had his doctorate, who worked as a tree trimmer. And I remember spending a lot of time with this man because he said to me, it was the only job he could see that didn't contribute to the war in some effort. And know this this didn't do it.

[Assistant] This was during your senior year?

[User] This was during my senior year most likely. And, um, although maybe it was towards junior senior year because I remember applying to the Peace Corps, but still took about a six, nine month process or something, you know, once you applied.

[Assistant] Do you remember which board you were registered with?

[User] Yeah, I was registered with the Great Neck Board in Great Neck, Long Island, and not Westwood, although it probably wouldn't have mattered because from my understanding, the two most difficult draft boards in the United States were Westwood and Great Neck. They didn't let you out for any reasons, and they were, you know, so it was hard.

[Assistant] And you don't recall when you first [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he wasn't. He was actually from, he was actually Indian and his name was Paul Sequoia. And I still keep in touch with him. And he became the principal of a high school on Long Island. Very sweet man. And anyway, so but he used to tell me these stories about growing up in Kenya. When I applied and I got back that I got into Ghana.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process? Did you have to take an entrance exam and get six references?

[User] Yes, you had to get. Oh, there were tons of references. I don't think six, but I remember that the FBI did a check on you and the, um, you were very thoroughly investigated during this period of time. And that was one of my concerns was that I had because I was, I wrote a column in the newspaper and the Daily Bruin. And a lot of the things I did were antiwar. And so I always wondered, I mean, I thought I fit in ideally in the Peace Corps, but who knew what they were going to do, take you or not take you.

[Assistant] So all these [inaudible] went into Peace Corps.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what month it was where they finally responded?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you had to get. Oh, there were tons of references. I don't think six, but I remember that the FBI did a check on you and the, um, you were very thoroughly investigated during this period of time. And that was one of my concerns was that I had because I was, I wrote a column in the newspaper and the Daily Bruin. And a lot of the things I did were antiwar. And so I always wondered, I mean, I thought I fit in ideally in the Peace Corps, but who knew what they were going to do, take you or not take you.

[Assistant] So all these [inaudible] went into Peace Corps.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what month it was where they finally responded?

[User] Well, let's see. I mean, we left at the probably in June of '68, so I probably would have been accepted a couple of months earlier at least. So, you know, to get some idea. So it had probably been sometime after January, February of '68, I would have heard that I'd gotten into Ghana.

[Assistant] And you've been out of college?