[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is open there, but there was a privacy wall that went halfway down the middle. So he had that, that privacy and that was. I got the spot that was like the master spot. So I had I had some privacy. But they had to go into my part of the compound to get to their part around the wall. So I mean, I saw everybody. But it was a very good situation because they lived their life in their part of the compound outside, and I could go there and participate with them anytime I wanted to. But in my part of the compound, we didn't congregate a lot, so I had my bed outside.

[Assistant] Outside?

[User] Yeah, it had a mosquito net.

[Assistant] Oh, that would be cooler then.

[User] Yeah, it was very hot. I think I might have put it inside during or had. No, I think it was always outside.

[Assistant] You have the Harmattan there, where dust would blow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it had a mosquito net.

[Assistant] Oh, that would be cooler then.

[User] Yeah, it was very hot. I think I might have put it inside during or had. No, I think it was always outside.

[Assistant] You have the Harmattan there, where dust would blow?

[User] I don't remember that. I remember that in Senegal, I don't remember storms in Chad. But no, I did have a bed inside too at some point during the year, but it was mostly outside that it was. And then I would sit in my part of the courtyard and prepare my lessons. I would sit outside. It was it was too hot to be inside anywhere.

[Assistant] You said you had been given a desk or a table.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was very hot. I think I might have put it inside during or had. No, I think it was always outside.

[Assistant] You have the Harmattan there, where dust would blow?

[User] I don't remember that. I remember that in Senegal, I don't remember storms in Chad. But no, I did have a bed inside too at some point during the year, but it was mostly outside that it was. And then I would sit in my part of the courtyard and prepare my lessons. I would sit outside. It was it was too hot to be inside anywhere.

[Assistant] You said you had been given a desk or a table.

[User] I did have a table. It was inside. Yeah, but I would usually sit outside because I was or read or something because it was so hot. And so when people would come in, they would greet me and they would always. It was so funny. They would always say, what's wrong, Jane? Why are you sitting here all alone?

[Assistant] Oh, in Arabic, they would be saying this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did have a table. It was inside. Yeah, but I would usually sit outside because I was or read or something because it was so hot. And so when people would come in, they would greet me and they would always. It was so funny. They would always say, what's wrong, Jane? Why are you sitting here all alone?

[Assistant] Oh, in Arabic, they would be saying this?

[User] No, this this family spoke French. Some of them spoke Arabic, but both. Some combination of it. They would be asking me, you know, what's up? Because there were a couple of them that were students at the lycee. Some of the women, I think, spoke some Arabic, and I don't remember all that. But I was learning some Arabic anyway. So why are you sitting all alone? And I would sometimes then go over and join them. But it was really clear to me that sitting alone to read or to write to my parents or so, that was an American thing, and I was happy. I was very happy doing that. But they thought I was just sad, so they felt really sorry for me. So that was a big cultural lesson to me. And so I would go over and somebody was always cooking something. There were always two or three babies walking around and running around, and there was somebody plaiting somebody's hair and it was just, you know, it was just a busy family compound.

[Assistant] Sounds wonderful.

[User] It was wonderful.

[Assistant] And you ate together with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was wonderful.

[Assistant] And you ate together with them?

[User] I'm trying to remember that. I think I did sometimes, and I think I had. No, I think I usually ate with them because I had I hired a woman to come and make me tea in the morning. Oh, and I think she did my laundry too. I'm not sure, but I didn't. I think I might have eaten. I didn't eat very well when I was in Chad. But yeah, I probably ate with them and they became friends. They were good friends of mine, all different generations. And I had to have a guardian. There was a cot inside the entrance, inside the door to the concession and a guardian slept on that cot and I hired him to watch out for the for me all night, you know? And the one thing that was funny about that was there was one holiday. I don't remember if it was the end of Ramadan or one of the big holidays where they do a three day celebration. And he said, I'm going to go home and be with my family. And I said, no, you're not, because this was the time when they had these celebrations that everybody would drink. You know, it'll be crimes and everything.

[Assistant] If ever you needed a guardian.

[User] I said, this is the night I need you. He said, no, I can't do it. So we had quite a discussion with the people in my family and he and I had a discussion and he arranged to get somebody else to come and do his job. And it was really it was really very interesting to me.

[Assistant] Good for you for advocating for yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to remember that. I think I did sometimes, and I think I had. No, I think I usually ate with them because I had I hired a woman to come and make me tea in the morning. Oh, and I think she did my laundry too. I'm not sure, but I didn't. I think I might have eaten. I didn't eat very well when I was in Chad. But yeah, I probably ate with them and they became friends. They were good friends of mine, all different generations. And I had to have a guardian. There was a cot inside the entrance, inside the door to the concession and a guardian slept on that cot and I hired him to watch out for the for me all night, you know? And the one thing that was funny about that was there was one holiday. I don't remember if it was the end of Ramadan or one of the big holidays where they do a three day celebration. And he said, I'm going to go home and be with my family. And I said, no, you're not, because this was the time when they had these celebrations that everybody would drink. You know, it'll be crimes and everything.

[Assistant] If ever you needed a guardian.

[User] I said, this is the night I need you. He said, no, I can't do it. So we had quite a discussion with the people in my family and he and I had a discussion and he arranged to get somebody else to come and do his job. And it was really it was really very interesting to me.

[Assistant] Good for you for advocating for yourself.

[User] Oh my gosh. I was just like, this can't happen. But anyway, that though, so that was my and they built an enclosed outhouse and shower for me.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said, this is the night I need you. He said, no, I can't do it. So we had quite a discussion with the people in my family and he and I had a discussion and he arranged to get somebody else to come and do his job. And it was really it was really very interesting to me.

[Assistant] Good for you for advocating for yourself.

[User] Oh my gosh. I was just like, this can't happen. But anyway, that though, so that was my and they built an enclosed outhouse and shower for me.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice.

[User] I think there had been a hole in the ground before and they just enclosed it. So I had a hole in the ground. But I had and the shower was another separately half walled part that I took a tea kettle into and did this with. You know, it's just it was really nice. Yeah. So that was what I had.

[Assistant] So here you are. You're not Muslim. You're living in an Islamic culture and now you're inside the family walls with an Islamic family. Were the women there veiled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh my gosh. I was just like, this can't happen. But anyway, that though, so that was my and they built an enclosed outhouse and shower for me.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice.

[User] I think there had been a hole in the ground before and they just enclosed it. So I had a hole in the ground. But I had and the shower was another separately half walled part that I took a tea kettle into and did this with. You know, it's just it was really nice. Yeah. So that was what I had.

[Assistant] So here you are. You're not Muslim. You're living in an Islamic culture and now you're inside the family walls with an Islamic family. Were the women there veiled?

[User] They were, but they weren't. They called them veils, what they were. But what it was, was they were these beautiful silk scarves with beautiful, with gorgeous sequins and things on them. I mean, every holiday, the women were given a gift by the husband, and if there were three wives, there were three of equal value, of a scarf.

[Assistant] Oh, this is a polygamist culture. Even inside your family where you live? Were there more than one wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there had been a hole in the ground before and they just enclosed it. So I had a hole in the ground. But I had and the shower was another separately half walled part that I took a tea kettle into and did this with. You know, it's just it was really nice. Yeah. So that was what I had.

[Assistant] So here you are. You're not Muslim. You're living in an Islamic culture and now you're inside the family walls with an Islamic family. Were the women there veiled?

[User] They were, but they weren't. They called them veils, what they were. But what it was, was they were these beautiful silk scarves with beautiful, with gorgeous sequins and things on them. I mean, every holiday, the women were given a gift by the husband, and if there were three wives, there were three of equal value, of a scarf.

[Assistant] Oh, this is a polygamist culture. Even inside your family where you live? Were there more than one wife?

[User] Yeah. Not in the compound where I was, but across the street with the patriarch and his wives. But so they wore these. They wore beautiful clothes and there was nothing. The veil was like the dance of the seven veils. You know, the veil is to make it mysterious and sexy. And they were just, it never occurred to me that they were being hidden by these because they were being enhanced.

[Assistant] OK. And so there wasn't a hijab thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were, but they weren't. They called them veils, what they were. But what it was, was they were these beautiful silk scarves with beautiful, with gorgeous sequins and things on them. I mean, every holiday, the women were given a gift by the husband, and if there were three wives, there were three of equal value, of a scarf.

[Assistant] Oh, this is a polygamist culture. Even inside your family where you live? Were there more than one wife?

[User] Yeah. Not in the compound where I was, but across the street with the patriarch and his wives. But so they wore these. They wore beautiful clothes and there was nothing. The veil was like the dance of the seven veils. You know, the veil is to make it mysterious and sexy. And they were just, it never occurred to me that they were being hidden by these because they were being enhanced.

[Assistant] OK. And so there wasn't a hijab thing.

[User] Never saw that. Maybe today, today you would see it, I'm sure, but not then. More like Indian women, you know how they wear these beautiful? It was like that.

[Assistant] You know, there's a loveliness. So you didn't find people somehow disrespecting you or something because you were not veiled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Not in the compound where I was, but across the street with the patriarch and his wives. But so they wore these. They wore beautiful clothes and there was nothing. The veil was like the dance of the seven veils. You know, the veil is to make it mysterious and sexy. And they were just, it never occurred to me that they were being hidden by these because they were being enhanced.

[Assistant] OK. And so there wasn't a hijab thing.

[User] Never saw that. Maybe today, today you would see it, I'm sure, but not then. More like Indian women, you know how they wear these beautiful? It was like that.

[Assistant] You know, there's a loveliness. So you didn't find people somehow disrespecting you or something because you were not veiled?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you find yourself putting on a veil, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never saw that. Maybe today, today you would see it, I'm sure, but not then. More like Indian women, you know how they wear these beautiful? It was like that.

[Assistant] You know, there's a loveliness. So you didn't find people somehow disrespecting you or something because you were not veiled?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you find yourself putting on a veil, too?

[User] No. I think I would have stood out if I put on a veil. I think, it was a sophisticated enough town that they knew that they knew enough white people and had known enough white people, mostly French, that we did things differently. And if I had tried to look or act like them, I think they might have interpreted as, especially at the beginning, they might have interpreted as she's making fun of us or something.

[Assistant] You would have to have it be given to you as a gift or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you find yourself putting on a veil, too?

[User] No. I think I would have stood out if I put on a veil. I think, it was a sophisticated enough town that they knew that they knew enough white people and had known enough white people, mostly French, that we did things differently. And if I had tried to look or act like them, I think they might have interpreted as, especially at the beginning, they might have interpreted as she's making fun of us or something.

[Assistant] You would have to have it be given to you as a gift or something.

[User] But as time went by, yeah, I did. I did do things like that and I did as I became felt part of things. I felt that I could do things more in their way. But that was that was one of the big social aspects of my town, the distance between Europeans and Chadians. And it was very pronounced in my town because there were a number of French people and there was also an army base there that we didn't really associate with much.

[Assistant] But this was Chadian Army?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think I would have stood out if I put on a veil. I think, it was a sophisticated enough town that they knew that they knew enough white people and had known enough white people, mostly French, that we did things differently. And if I had tried to look or act like them, I think they might have interpreted as, especially at the beginning, they might have interpreted as she's making fun of us or something.

[Assistant] You would have to have it be given to you as a gift or something.

[User] But as time went by, yeah, I did. I did do things like that and I did as I became felt part of things. I felt that I could do things more in their way. But that was that was one of the big social aspects of my town, the distance between Europeans and Chadians. And it was very pronounced in my town because there were a number of French people and there was also an army base there that we didn't really associate with much.

[Assistant] But this was Chadian Army?

[User] No, French.

[Assistant] French? Still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But as time went by, yeah, I did. I did do things like that and I did as I became felt part of things. I felt that I could do things more in their way. But that was that was one of the big social aspects of my town, the distance between Europeans and Chadians. And it was very pronounced in my town because there were a number of French people and there was also an army base there that we didn't really associate with much.

[Assistant] But this was Chadian Army?

[User] No, French.

[Assistant] French? Still there?

[User] The French people didn't know. It turned out to be a scandal. They were based in Senegal and they would send people over to Abéché. But it was for this rebellion that was that was happening. And so they were there. I didn't know any of them, but the guys sometimes went over there to drink with them and stuff. But so they were very separate communities and the French made no. They were not interested in and they didn't make any effort to get to know Chadian people other than as their students or patients or cooks or whatever.

[Assistant] But here you are, breaking that mold by moving in with a family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The French people didn't know. It turned out to be a scandal. They were based in Senegal and they would send people over to Abéché. But it was for this rebellion that was that was happening. And so they were there. I didn't know any of them, but the guys sometimes went over there to drink with them and stuff. But so they were very separate communities and the French made no. They were not interested in and they didn't make any effort to get to know Chadian people other than as their students or patients or cooks or whatever.

[Assistant] But here you are, breaking that mold by moving in with a family.

[User] Exactly. And I was very, it was the hardest thing for me. The whole two years I was there, to negotiate those two communities because I didn't want to alienate either one. I wanted to know both of them. I knew that I had gone there to meet and work with the Chadians. But I also knew that from the moment I got in there that the Chadians expected me to be with the French, with the other white people. They didn't make that differentiation, American and French. And also that there were aspects of the French society that I liked and wanted to be part of. And, you know, I majored in French in college. You know, so that was something I didn't want to turn my back on that group. But it was like I had two lives. I would be invited here this night and here this night. And it was they didn't really intersect much and it was very, it was very difficult. It was mostly difficult to sit and listen to the French say horrible things about the Chadians.

[Assistant] Oh yes.

[User] I just, that was, I had to hold my tongue a lot.

[Assistant] So who did you hang out with to keep yourself sane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just, that was, I had to hold my tongue a lot.

[Assistant] So who did you hang out with to keep yourself sane?

[User] My boyfriend, this French guy.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] He was the director of the Alliance Francaise in town, which was a good. It was a. I don't know if you know the Alliance Francaises in the world. They're like cultural centers, French cultural centers. And so he had a library and he taught classes in French for people who were not at the school, for people who either couldn't get into the school or whatever. The students were not as good as those in the lycee, but he had students every day come. And then once a week, he showed a French film. They would send him a French film and we went to this courtyard that had the projection, and it was always funny because the either the reels were mixed up and we'd see the beginning at the end or sometimes there would be three different reels for different films. There was always something, but he was very nice and he was very. He was my first one, well no, my fiance was my first real boyfriend, but we were very serious. For two years.

[Assistant] Oh, the whole two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My boyfriend, this French guy.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] He was the director of the Alliance Francaise in town, which was a good. It was a. I don't know if you know the Alliance Francaises in the world. They're like cultural centers, French cultural centers. And so he had a library and he taught classes in French for people who were not at the school, for people who either couldn't get into the school or whatever. The students were not as good as those in the lycee, but he had students every day come. And then once a week, he showed a French film. They would send him a French film and we went to this courtyard that had the projection, and it was always funny because the either the reels were mixed up and we'd see the beginning at the end or sometimes there would be three different reels for different films. There was always something, but he was very nice and he was very. He was my first one, well no, my fiance was my first real boyfriend, but we were very serious. For two years.

[Assistant] Oh, the whole two years?

[User] Yeah. And I almost married him, but I didn't. I went home and then the next summer, I went to France to meet him. And went, we spent the summer in France. He met me in Paris and we spent a little time in Paris and then we went on a trip around France, visiting all of the people we knew in Chad that were home. We visited them in their houses and they treated us so well. And it was such a wonderful thing because I was able to be in French homes with French people and not feel uncomfortable. You know, I felt like I was in this culture in the place where this culture was supposed to be, you know?

[Assistant] By you also knew, you had known each other in Chad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew these people and I cared a lot. We had a lot in common. And they, you know, they were in their family home. So we met their mothers. They cooked us these big meals. It was just it was lovely. But I did decide after that summer that I didn't want to live with them.

[Assistant] Uh-huh. And you had said that your former fiance from the states also came out to visit you.

[User] He came the first year. Yeah. I was not really pleased that he was coming, but I didn't tell him not to come. And that was a huge trip to make back then. Today it's not much, but I mean, it was really something. The thing that bothered me the most was when he got there, he said, your sister gave me some brownies and a teddy bear to bring you, and I just didn't have room for them. And that was the end. You know, you understand. I see you nodding. It was like, OK, that's that. So we wound up. I tried. And my boyfriend, who I didn't tell him was my boyfriend, tried to be nice to him and find people for him to play chess with while I was at school or something like that. We, you know, we tried, but it was just not working out and we had a couple of disagreements and I told him to leave and he said, well, my ticket isn't back isn't until this date. And I said, Well, go spend it down in the capital and just get out of here. So that was done.

[Assistant] Very clear.

[User] Yeah, but it was good. So it was good.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say about your time right there up in Abéché? Have we covered all the important stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, but when I got on the camel on this camping trip, it was wonderful because the camel, once you get on them and get up, they don't want, they just go along. It's like being on a boat, you know, and even if they gallop, you're not very. They're, you're very secure. The camel saddles are very big and you're just secure. So I thought I wasn't worried about writing this camel as long as somebody would help me put him up and down. There was always somebody to do that, and it was just very, very nice. I loved it.

And so those were those were a couple of things that were good for me during that time.

[Assistant] Wonderful memories.

[User] I had a huge life there. There was a woman that lived in my town. She was a French woman, but she had been there for years and years and years. And she was kind of a recluse. But she had a compound with animals and she just loved animals. So she had you. If you went to see her, she had ostriches and she had lots of different geese and she had rabbits and ostrich was the most exotic thing she had. I'm not sure what else that would be really interesting. But I went to see her and I got her to give me two rabbits because I had always wanted to have rabbits as pets. So she did, and I took them home and it turned that rabbits are crummy pets.

[Assistant] Well, they're messy and smelly.

[User] They put these little pellets all the house, and they scratched me. They didn't want me. I wanted to sit and pet them.

[Assistant] Cuddle with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a huge life there. There was a woman that lived in my town. She was a French woman, but she had been there for years and years and years. And she was kind of a recluse. But she had a compound with animals and she just loved animals. So she had you. If you went to see her, she had ostriches and she had lots of different geese and she had rabbits and ostrich was the most exotic thing she had. I'm not sure what else that would be really interesting. But I went to see her and I got her to give me two rabbits because I had always wanted to have rabbits as pets. So she did, and I took them home and it turned that rabbits are crummy pets.

[Assistant] Well, they're messy and smelly.

[User] They put these little pellets all the house, and they scratched me. They didn't want me. I wanted to sit and pet them.

[Assistant] Cuddle with them.

[User] That's a different kind of rabbit.

[Assistant] That's called a bunny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They put these little pellets all the house, and they scratched me. They didn't want me. I wanted to sit and pet them.

[Assistant] Cuddle with them.

[User] That's a different kind of rabbit.

[Assistant] That's called a bunny.

[User] Yeah. So anyway, they didn't last. I took them back and said thank you. But then she gave me a couple of geese. I put some geese in the yard. I don't know why I had those, but I did. And. They were okay, but they were kind of messy.

[Assistant] And they can, geese can also be mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a different kind of rabbit.

[Assistant] That's called a bunny.

[User] Yeah. So anyway, they didn't last. I took them back and said thank you. But then she gave me a couple of geese. I put some geese in the yard. I don't know why I had those, but I did. And. They were okay, but they were kind of messy.

[Assistant] And they can, geese can also be mean.

[User] Yeah, but somehow I kept them for a while and then I had a cat and then I had a dog, so I had a number of cats, I had four. So it was a very it was a very nice life. Teaching was the least good part of it. But it was good enough that when I came back here, I knew I wanted to be a teacher and I didn't. I didn't want to be a teacher before then because my mother had been a teacher and everybody thought that women should be teachers. And I didn't know what I wanted to be, but I didn't want to be a teacher. So I went into the Peace Corps and they said, you're going to be a teacher because that's all I was. What did they call us? AB generalist. That means you can do nothing, right? You don't know how to do anything, so we'll make you be a teacher. So I said, OK. So that was when I learned that I loved teaching then, even though I knew I couldn't do it, it was like, damn, I'm going to get this right.

[Assistant] But this is fascinating because the teaching part of your whole experience was the most difficult and the most frustrating. You had students who were not cooperative and yet you came home determined to be a teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but somehow I kept them for a while and then I had a cat and then I had a dog, so I had a number of cats, I had four. So it was a very it was a very nice life. Teaching was the least good part of it. But it was good enough that when I came back here, I knew I wanted to be a teacher and I didn't. I didn't want to be a teacher before then because my mother had been a teacher and everybody thought that women should be teachers. And I didn't know what I wanted to be, but I didn't want to be a teacher. So I went into the Peace Corps and they said, you're going to be a teacher because that's all I was. What did they call us? AB generalist. That means you can do nothing, right? You don't know how to do anything, so we'll make you be a teacher. So I said, OK. So that was when I learned that I loved teaching then, even though I knew I couldn't do it, it was like, damn, I'm going to get this right.

[Assistant] But this is fascinating because the teaching part of your whole experience was the most difficult and the most frustrating. You had students who were not cooperative and yet you came home determined to be a teacher.

[User] I put it on myself. It was like I didn't know how to reach those kids. It was my, and I and I think it was, I mean, it wasn't their fault. They were in their country and I was just I couldn't do it. So I came back here and I said, all right, I'm going to try to save poor kids in America. I'll know their culture, right? So I went back to school after doing a bunch of stuff, including Peace Corps training, I went back to University of Chicago, got a master's in elementary education, and then I went to North Carolina, to the country, to a newly integrated school down there.

[Assistant] This would have been 1973 or '74?

[User] '74, '76. Two years. And I taught second grade there.

[Assistant] Where in North Carolina?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I put it on myself. It was like I didn't know how to reach those kids. It was my, and I and I think it was, I mean, it wasn't their fault. They were in their country and I was just I couldn't do it. So I came back here and I said, all right, I'm going to try to save poor kids in America. I'll know their culture, right? So I went back to school after doing a bunch of stuff, including Peace Corps training, I went back to University of Chicago, got a master's in elementary education, and then I went to North Carolina, to the country, to a newly integrated school down there.

[Assistant] This would have been 1973 or '74?

[User] '74, '76. Two years. And I taught second grade there.

[Assistant] Where in North Carolina?

[User] Pleasant Grove, North Carolina. Central North Carolina, but really rural and the kids were quite poor and I liked it, but I still had classroom management problems. I mean, seven year olds, they're no better than that. Different problems.

[Assistant] And did you have big, big numbers in the class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '74, '76. Two years. And I taught second grade there.

[Assistant] Where in North Carolina?

[User] Pleasant Grove, North Carolina. Central North Carolina, but really rural and the kids were quite poor and I liked it, but I still had classroom management problems. I mean, seven year olds, they're no better than that. Different problems.

[Assistant] And did you have big, big numbers in the class?

[User] Twenty six. That was not too bad, but no aides or anything. But it was hard. It was very hard. But it was it was better. It was easy. You know, I knew where the problems were.

[Assistant] And you maybe had some books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pleasant Grove, North Carolina. Central North Carolina, but really rural and the kids were quite poor and I liked it, but I still had classroom management problems. I mean, seven year olds, they're no better than that. Different problems.

[Assistant] And did you have big, big numbers in the class?

[User] Twenty six. That was not too bad, but no aides or anything. But it was hard. It was very hard. But it was it was better. It was easy. You know, I knew where the problems were.

[Assistant] And you maybe had some books.

[User] We did have books. We have books.

[Assistant] So and then eventually you must have gone back to school. Eventually, you wound up as a professor at Brandeis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did a bunch of things and then I went back to get my. I decided I wanted to be a professor. I did a lot of things in the teaching profession and some other things, but I said, I want to be a professor because I was tired of going to parties and somebody meeting somebody and they would say, what do you do? And I would say I'm a second grade teacher and they would turn around and walk away, you know, nothing to say. So I said, this is really interesting stuff, but I want people to recognize me. So I thought college. If I got a Ph.D. or if I taught in college, maybe they'd like it. And then I found out you had to have a PhD to get a good job in college. So I went to Stanford and I got a PhD. And then I got my job.

[Assistant] In French?

[User] In French. And then I came here to Brandeis and taught for 30 years.

[Assistant] 30 years.

[User] And I, I liked it. The first time I remember my first class at Brandeis. I got out of class and I looked and I said, I got through my whole lesson plan. That was the first time in my entire life that I had ever finished what I said I was going to do. Then I went to my office and on the way to my office, I went to the bathroom. And I said I can do this and I can spend as much time here as I want. Nobody's fighting out in the hallway. And then I went to my office and I fixed myself a cup of coffee and I put my feet up and I said, this is humane. I've been looking for it for half a century, but it was like, it was the conditions, and I really appreciated that a lot. So I had the luxury teaching for my last 30 years.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful. And do you would you have wound up as a professor at Brandeis had you not gone into the Peace Corps? Do you think ultimately it would have come around to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In French. And then I came here to Brandeis and taught for 30 years.

[Assistant] 30 years.

[User] And I, I liked it. The first time I remember my first class at Brandeis. I got out of class and I looked and I said, I got through my whole lesson plan. That was the first time in my entire life that I had ever finished what I said I was going to do. Then I went to my office and on the way to my office, I went to the bathroom. And I said I can do this and I can spend as much time here as I want. Nobody's fighting out in the hallway. And then I went to my office and I fixed myself a cup of coffee and I put my feet up and I said, this is humane. I've been looking for it for half a century, but it was like, it was the conditions, and I really appreciated that a lot. So I had the luxury teaching for my last 30 years.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful. And do you would you have wound up as a professor at Brandeis had you not gone into the Peace Corps? Do you think ultimately it would have come around to that?

[User] No. No. I don't think I would have been a professor. I don't know what I would have done. I mean, I don't know. I really don't know what would have happened, but it was a circuitous route. But I do think that I learned in Peace Corps that I love teaching. That I really loved it.

[Assistant] Amazing. Any other things that you took away from Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I, I liked it. The first time I remember my first class at Brandeis. I got out of class and I looked and I said, I got through my whole lesson plan. That was the first time in my entire life that I had ever finished what I said I was going to do. Then I went to my office and on the way to my office, I went to the bathroom. And I said I can do this and I can spend as much time here as I want. Nobody's fighting out in the hallway. And then I went to my office and I fixed myself a cup of coffee and I put my feet up and I said, this is humane. I've been looking for it for half a century, but it was like, it was the conditions, and I really appreciated that a lot. So I had the luxury teaching for my last 30 years.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful. And do you would you have wound up as a professor at Brandeis had you not gone into the Peace Corps? Do you think ultimately it would have come around to that?

[User] No. No. I don't think I would have been a professor. I don't know what I would have done. I mean, I don't know. I really don't know what would have happened, but it was a circuitous route. But I do think that I learned in Peace Corps that I love teaching. That I really loved it.

[Assistant] Amazing. Any other things that you took away from Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, so many. I gained a lot of confidence in myself. A lot of confidence. And it's too much to just to answer a question like that, I can't. I took away so much of what I am from Peace Corps.

[Assistant] You mentioned something about Senegal. I got the idea that you had gone. You've gone back to Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] It's been a great interview.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And I wish you well. And in your remaining years, there's lots more ahead.

[User] Oh yeah, I don't know what it is, but I'm sure there is.

[Assistant] Thank you, Jane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The last flight I worked was in the ECLSS systems officer. I did do some work in the SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis Room] on other flights, and then, of course, later on in the Mission Evaluation Room.

[Assistant] How was it working in the SPAN room as compared to the front room?

[User] Oh, I enjoyed working in the front rooms okay. It was not something that was as much fun, but it was still interesting. I mean, you had to do a different task. I only did that—probably—I don’t know, probably, maybe five or six flights, maybe a few more than that. I guess I was off most of the time working Space Station stuff.\n\n The SPAN was basically coordinating activities. It was kind of the interface between the Mission Evaluation Room and the flight control guys, and just a little coordination, particularly with them and sometimes maybe even between disciplines outside the front room.\n\n The activity level wasn’t quite as great. I can’t say that. I mean it was enjoyable enough. I still like working—I probably still would like doing it. The front room operation, I always kind of enjoyed that, except Skylab did get a little long.

[Assistant] Were you just looking at the ECLSS systems from the SPAN room?

[User] No, no. You had, I think, pretty much all the Shuttle systems. There was somebody there for payloads and there were two or three other people, but I think our particular position was the interface for all that.

[Assistant] Do you remember any major anomalies during the time that you were in there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I enjoyed working in the front rooms okay. It was not something that was as much fun, but it was still interesting. I mean, you had to do a different task. I only did that—probably—I don’t know, probably, maybe five or six flights, maybe a few more than that. I guess I was off most of the time working Space Station stuff.\n\n The SPAN was basically coordinating activities. It was kind of the interface between the Mission Evaluation Room and the flight control guys, and just a little coordination, particularly with them and sometimes maybe even between disciplines outside the front room.\n\n The activity level wasn’t quite as great. I can’t say that. I mean it was enjoyable enough. I still like working—I probably still would like doing it. The front room operation, I always kind of enjoyed that, except Skylab did get a little long.

[Assistant] Were you just looking at the ECLSS systems from the SPAN room?

[User] No, no. You had, I think, pretty much all the Shuttle systems. There was somebody there for payloads and there were two or three other people, but I think our particular position was the interface for all that.

[Assistant] Do you remember any major anomalies during the time that you were in there?

[User] Honestly, I don’t have a very good recollection of that particular time. I can’t even tell you for sure what flights I worked back there. I didn’t make a record of them, but it was somewhere like I think after nine, but well before the Challenger accident. I’m sorry, I do not remember.

[Assistant] I know STS-9, one of the APUs caught fire actually during reentry and landing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. You had, I think, pretty much all the Shuttle systems. There was somebody there for payloads and there were two or three other people, but I think our particular position was the interface for all that.

[Assistant] Do you remember any major anomalies during the time that you were in there?

[User] Honestly, I don’t have a very good recollection of that particular time. I can’t even tell you for sure what flights I worked back there. I didn’t make a record of them, but it was somewhere like I think after nine, but well before the Challenger accident. I’m sorry, I do not remember.

[Assistant] I know STS-9, one of the APUs caught fire actually during reentry and landing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I don’t know if that was something that you had come across.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Honestly, I don’t have a very good recollection of that particular time. I can’t even tell you for sure what flights I worked back there. I didn’t make a record of them, but it was somewhere like I think after nine, but well before the Challenger accident. I’m sorry, I do not remember.

[Assistant] I know STS-9, one of the APUs caught fire actually during reentry and landing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I don’t know if that was something that you had come across.

[User] No, I don’t remember that now, or at least if I thought about it, I might, but it’s not something that sticks in my mind. I don’t know whether I worked that mission or not. I’d have to go back and look at my calendar and see just exactly when all this broke, but I don’t specifically remember that. When did STS-9 fly?

[Assistant] I think that was September of 1983 or right around that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I don’t know if that was something that you had come across.

[User] No, I don’t remember that now, or at least if I thought about it, I might, but it’s not something that sticks in my mind. I don’t know whether I worked that mission or not. I’d have to go back and look at my calendar and see just exactly when all this broke, but I don’t specifically remember that. When did STS-9 fly?

[Assistant] I think that was September of 1983 or right around that point.

[User] It probably would have been about the time I moved off somewhere else. I might have been in the SPAN room. I just don’t really recollect that. I’m sorry, but I don’t.

[Assistant] That’s okay. Why did you move into Space Station activities when you had been working in this area for so long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t remember that now, or at least if I thought about it, I might, but it’s not something that sticks in my mind. I don’t know whether I worked that mission or not. I’d have to go back and look at my calendar and see just exactly when all this broke, but I don’t specifically remember that. When did STS-9 fly?

[Assistant] I think that was September of 1983 or right around that point.

[User] It probably would have been about the time I moved off somewhere else. I might have been in the SPAN room. I just don’t really recollect that. I’m sorry, but I don’t.

[Assistant] That’s okay. Why did you move into Space Station activities when you had been working in this area for so long?

[User] I was asked to.

[Assistant] Could you elaborate on who asked you and maybe why, and then what was going on at that time that you were becoming involved with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It probably would have been about the time I moved off somewhere else. I might have been in the SPAN room. I just don’t really recollect that. I’m sorry, but I don’t.

[Assistant] That’s okay. Why did you move into Space Station activities when you had been working in this area for so long?

[User] I was asked to.

[Assistant] Could you elaborate on who asked you and maybe why, and then what was going on at that time that you were becoming involved with?

[User] Actually, I say I was asked to; I was directed to more than anything else. I couldn’t even really begin to say what was led to that. The activity was a new activity going on, and so I did it because basically I was not given a choice about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember what the timeframe was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was asked to.

[Assistant] Could you elaborate on who asked you and maybe why, and then what was going on at that time that you were becoming involved with?

[User] Actually, I say I was asked to; I was directed to more than anything else. I couldn’t even really begin to say what was led to that. The activity was a new activity going on, and so I did it because basically I was not given a choice about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember what the timeframe was?

[User] It was in ’83. I don’t remember—it seemed like it was in early ’83 because I think it was in springtime, spring or early summer, that’s my recollection of it.

[Assistant] What kind of status was there on Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Marshall?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Actually, the MOD operates the Space Station.

[Assistant] I guess in terms of considering operational constraints in designing the system.

[User] Well, I would not criticize on how they did it. In my familiarity with the Space Station, there are a lot of snags in it. But, on the other hand, you start building stuff and then they change the ground rules a few times, and you can’t necessarily go back and redo the stuff you’ve already built. Sometimes you encounter where you have to make do with stuff that might not be absolutely optimum for the new condition. I don’t have any specific instances. I’m just saying that sometimes that does happen. I think that they cut out a lot of testing because of budget considerations—not Marshall—but just the agency.\n\n We’ve encountered some problems, I think on the Space Station, that we might have found out on the ground instead of up there if we’d done a little more testing. But that’s just simply a matter of, you do what you can do. It has no bearing on who did it. I don’t even see in operating a Space Station, during Skylab there was quite a bit of conflict. Maybe not just conflict, but issues between Marshall and mission operations. I think it’s a difference in cultures, but I don’t even see that that much now. It seems like it’s going relatively smooth, given the circumstances.\n\n Skylab, we had a bunch of problems the first Skylab mission, and then it leveled out. It got kind of dull after that, and I think Station’s kind of doing the same, it seems like. Of course, it may be early to say it’s leveling, but we’ve certainly have had a few problems up front, at least in our world, the ECLSS world.

[Assistant] And they still have some building to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Of course, I guess in our particular world, a lot of the building is going to use a lot of the same equipment, like the Japanese modules or something get up there. I think the original question was, operation-wise, I don’t know how I’d speak for the operation guys. Our particular end of it seems to be working. It works—I wouldn’t call it smooth, but it’s smoother than it started out and I think it gets better as time goes on and it probably will always could stand some improvement. But I think we’re doing reasonably well, and we’re interfacing with Marshall reasonably well, or the Boeing people in Huntsville, primarily who did this stuff.

[Assistant] How did your job change when you went to work under Chuck Lewis?

[User] From what?

[Assistant] From what you had been doing on Space Station.

[User] Well, it’s kind of a continuation of the same thing. It’s just a different office. I mean, it was different from the skunk works, but basically, as far as the MOD part of the thing goes, it was basically more of the same. As things moved on, as you got closer to having something more finite to deal with, and I’m not saying—leave off the term physical, because it was a while yet to get anything physical—but you had something a little more specific you were dealing with, a little better defined. You had specific things you could address, but basically it was kind of a continuation of that, but a little better defined. And we did have some budget to go work specific issues, and we worked those issues. The issues weren’t as specific, they were more general and perhaps a little vaguer earlier. I guess that’s the biggest change. It wasn’t a radical change at all.

[Assistant] Do you recall what some of the specific budget issues that you were having to work through were at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they probably do have fewer flight controllers. Well, I don’t know whether they do or not now. When I was there, we had an EECOM and we had a thermal guy and a life support guy and a mechanisms guy. I think that was it. And now, they have an EECOM and a thermal guy, and they may at times combine those two functions, at least under the crew sleep period or something like that. But life support and a thermal guy. Now they have a—I don’t remember what they call him, but a mechanism guy, and he probably has a guy in the back room, so it probably has increased a little bit for that function.\n\n I don’t think it ever happened, all right, at least not to any large degree, but that was desired. It was anticipated that they might do that.

[Assistant] So were there any significant changes in the job you were performing until you retired from NASA?

[User] You mean during that Space Station time?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No, there really wasn’t. No, there really wasn’t. There was a brief change there, but that was after I notified them I wanted to retire, and I think Chuck Lewis told them he wanted to retire, and they kind of dissolved his office and we got scattered, but that was only like a couple of months. I don’t think my retirement had anything to do with it. It was probably Chuck Lewis’ announcement that had something to do with it, dissolving the office, anyway.

[Assistant] What impact, if any, did the Challenger accident have on the activities of the Space Station office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean during that Space Station time?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No, there really wasn’t. No, there really wasn’t. There was a brief change there, but that was after I notified them I wanted to retire, and I think Chuck Lewis told them he wanted to retire, and they kind of dissolved his office and we got scattered, but that was only like a couple of months. I don’t think my retirement had anything to do with it. It was probably Chuck Lewis’ announcement that had something to do with it, dissolving the office, anyway.

[Assistant] What impact, if any, did the Challenger accident have on the activities of the Space Station office?

[User] I don’t know that there was any major impact other than we were all shocked with the tragedy. I guess something like that doesn’t happen. I stopped whatever I was doing that morning to watch the launch, and I guess most people do that. It’s kind of a significant event and everybody now holds their breath for two minutes after liftoff, if it last that long. Then they can relax and feel like they’ve got a good chance for another year on the job at least, or a while longer on the job. I think everybody realizes that we can’t do that very often and continue to do this space program.\n\n I don’t know that the activity made any significant directional changes. In fact, I don’t recollect any specific activity on Station that was majorly affected. Now, it may have been in other areas. I’m sure that was a significant event that it affects all your thinking. But I don’t think there was any programmatic change or anything like that that I noticed. At least, if there were, I don’t recollect them.

[Assistant] When you did decide to leave, what was your motivation then and did you have plans for after you were retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. I know what that job is out there. And I don’t mean to say that I’m the only guy who knows that. Certainly not that. Or even that I have the answers to all of it, but at least I kind of understand the relationship and I kind of know where they’re coming from. And so therefore I can appreciate your position. I’ve done a number of years’ work in the MER, so I can kind of appreciate our position. There’s use for both of them. You just kind of got to come to a relationship.\n\n We have had some difficulties in the Station world because of that. We had difficulties with Marshall, same way. They did not form the MER function per se, but the support function, but it’s sort of equivalent to MER. Basically you make an accommodation there. I mean, you’ve got to do that or else. And their flight director forces them to make an accommodation. In some cases, it’s fairly cooperative and with some individuals it’s just begrudging, but it sort of works now. And we don’t have any open fights now. I think we usually try to work out our stuff before we ever get to a formal process.

[Assistant] Actually, I think those cover all the questions that I had for you this afternoon but I did want to see if Sandra had developed any.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Are there any other comments you’d like to make or areas you’d like to address before we wrap it up?

[User] I don’t know of any. I probably don’t think so. I can’t think of anything right now. If anything else, I’d probably ramble worse than I’ve already rambled.

[Assistant] Well, no, actually I don’t think you’ve rambled too much at all. I think you’ve answered all my questions very well this afternoon and last time, too. I’d like to thank you for spending the time with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Always. I always did. In NASA, managers are just looking for who's willing to step up and lead and get things done. I've really not felt like there's been any holdback at all. Maybe it's just my personality. I’m never going to back off of an opportunity. If somebody thinks I can do something, I'm going to step up and try to do it. I haven't seen that. Of course, this organization for a long time was mostly men. If you look at my direct reports right now, they're almost all women.

[Assistant] So that's a change?

[User] It's a big change. In fact, we just did a Standing Review Board that the Shuttle Program is undergoing, and I wanted my org [organization] chart with pictures on it. How many Division Chiefs do I have? I think I have seven or eight, and four of them are women. So 50% or more. I just know there was a lot of female faces on that org chart. I thought, “No, it's not just because I'm a female that I hired a bunch of women,” they were the best for the job. So I think it's just changing. I think KSC in general—even the payload organization I was in—there was a lot of up and coming females as I was growing up, about in my age category, that now are up there. You're seeing more at the top than you did when I first got here. There was very few. There was one, I think there was one female direct line to the Center Director. We've never had a Center Director female here at KSC.

[Assistant] Yet.

[User] Yet. We have a deputy now, though. This is the first time we've had a deputy female.

[Assistant] Do you feel like there's a hardest lesson or the best lesson that you've learned through your experiences, something that you try not to forget on a daily basis or a routine basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have to tell you, I don’t remember. I’m sure we were, but I can’t remember specifically. That newsroom was always busy. Phones were ringing all the time, and typewriters were going. You ate at your desk, and the only time you left your desk was when you went to the copy machine or you went to the ladies’ room. But it was amazing. It was an amazing place to work.

[Assistant] Living in history as it’s being made.

[User] Yes. I mean, it really was, and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I was useless when I came home. I was always exhausted, because then I started getting into jobs where I was working for the senior-level people, and they weren’t eight to four-thirty jobs. You stayed as long as your boss needed you, and I worked a lot of overtime during those years.

[Assistant] Well, in 1972 you moved out of the Public Affairs Office.

[User] I went from the frying pan into the fire.

[Assistant] Was that your option? That was a move you wanted to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were technology changes, as well, that were coupled with that, so it was major. It was significant. It really was. It damn near killed me. [Laughs] It really did, because I was getting just old enough that I was beginning to not be able to work at that pace. It was hard. That was really, really, really hard. So that was one of the big things that happened under Mr. Goldin’s watch that impacted me personally.\n\n Then just the steady stream of training new staff. Every time I turned around we were changing staff, from senior level to worker bees. I mean, we couldn’t even keep a receptionist. We had such a turnover in that period that Mr. Goldin was the Administrator, it was amazing. I think when Mr. O’Keefe became Administrator, I think there were like two or three of us left in the office that had been there the whole time of Mr. Goldin, maybe two—and I’m one of them—that had been there the whole time Mr. Goldin was—he was the Administrator for a long time. That, in and of itself, is unprecedented. I mean, people don’t stay in jobs that long, as a rule. They move around. I know I’m a bit of an oddball.

[Assistant] Especially in his [Goldin] background and that kind of position.

[User] Yes, and in that kind of a position. Very unusual.

[Assistant] One of the things that, when we were doing some research, that seemed to be a little bit unique during that time period was the demonstrations or protests, and some things that may have resulted from the proposed Cassini launch.

[User] Well, actually, not that much. You know, I’m going to tell you exactly what resulted from that. He said, “We’re locking the doors.”

[Assistant] This was the doors to your suite?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and in that kind of a position. Very unusual.

[Assistant] One of the things that, when we were doing some research, that seemed to be a little bit unique during that time period was the demonstrations or protests, and some things that may have resulted from the proposed Cassini launch.

[User] Well, actually, not that much. You know, I’m going to tell you exactly what resulted from that. He said, “We’re locking the doors.”

[Assistant] This was the doors to your suite?

[User] Yes. You couldn’t get in without a badge that was programmed to open the doors. That was a logistics nightmare for people like me and other members of the staff, who had to make sure that there was always somebody there to let people in. I was forever working with Security to give people badge access, because if you programmed the badges, when we moved into that building, everything is run off a mainframe computer, and the computer controls the alarm system, which opens and closes all the doors, and the emergency egress system; the whole fire alarm, the door alarms, and that kind of stuff.\n\n So after that protest he said, “We’re locking the doors.” Well, simple thing for the Administrator to say. A lot of work for people down in the trenches. The trickle-down effect was a lot.

[Assistant] And woe the day his badge didn’t let him in, huh? [Laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only other thing that I think we didn’t cover, that I don’t know whether you want to go back to or not, is the women’s role in the workplace.

[Assistant] Yes. Is that something you’d like to share, or that’s something you’ve watched change over the years?

[User] Oh, I’ve certainly watched it change, and I think it’s still changing. We have, for the first time in NASA’s almost fifty-year history, a female Deputy Administrator [Shana Dale]. I don’t know her real well. She’s only been there a couple of months. I think that she’s a definite indication that women have not really broken through what they call the “glass ceiling” yet, because people treat her differently because she’s a woman.

[Assistant] Can you give me a couple of examples?

[User] Well, I think they’re more guarded as to what they say. Now, I don’t know, because I haven’t sat in any of the meetings that she’s chaired. I don’t know what the reaction is to her. I’m just talking about the day-to-day—she’s exhibited a couple of idiosyncrasies, personal idiosyncrasies, that have drawn a great deal of conversation among the working troops. Those idiosyncrasies are no different from some of her male counterparts, okay? But because, I think, they’re coming from her, I think they’re more subject to scrutiny. I’m not talking in circles; I just don’t want to get into the nitty-gritty of the details. It’s no different than some of the men that have sat where she’s sat have done, but it seems to be drawing a lot more conversation from the workforce, and I think that’s because she’s a woman.

[Assistant] How do you feel that a woman’s role is perceived at Headquarters? You’ve watched over this last forty years. As you mentioned, you came in as a secretary. Was it a while before you saw women being promoted into manager and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I’ve certainly watched it change, and I think it’s still changing. We have, for the first time in NASA’s almost fifty-year history, a female Deputy Administrator [Shana Dale]. I don’t know her real well. She’s only been there a couple of months. I think that she’s a definite indication that women have not really broken through what they call the “glass ceiling” yet, because people treat her differently because she’s a woman.

[Assistant] Can you give me a couple of examples?

[User] Well, I think they’re more guarded as to what they say. Now, I don’t know, because I haven’t sat in any of the meetings that she’s chaired. I don’t know what the reaction is to her. I’m just talking about the day-to-day—she’s exhibited a couple of idiosyncrasies, personal idiosyncrasies, that have drawn a great deal of conversation among the working troops. Those idiosyncrasies are no different from some of her male counterparts, okay? But because, I think, they’re coming from her, I think they’re more subject to scrutiny. I’m not talking in circles; I just don’t want to get into the nitty-gritty of the details. It’s no different than some of the men that have sat where she’s sat have done, but it seems to be drawing a lot more conversation from the workforce, and I think that’s because she’s a woman.

[Assistant] How do you feel that a woman’s role is perceived at Headquarters? You’ve watched over this last forty years. As you mentioned, you came in as a secretary. Was it a while before you saw women being promoted into manager and—

[User] No. No. When I worked in Legislative Affairs in the seventies, one of the Deputies was—and I worked for her—was a female. NASA, I think, has always been very on the cutting edge as far as offering opportunities, management opportunities, to women.

[Assistant] You worked on the Federal Women’s Program Committee. Was that part of anything that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they listen to her. So, to me, that’s an indication that there are a lot of women that have been given a lot of good opportunities at NASA. Some haven’t done well, but I think, there again, that’s a personality thing. If it’s a bad match with your manager in any job, it doesn’t matter whether you’re wearing a skirt or—you know. I never felt that being a woman held me back. But there, again, I didn’t aspire to lofty heights. I was happy doing what I was doing. Maybe I didn’t represent any threat to anybody, and other women have, and that’s why they’ve been stunted. I don’t know. You know, if you’re a threat, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a man or a woman, you’re a threat. That comes into play in people’s jockeying for positions or power. There’s no getting around that. It does. I know a lot of really smart women, and I have as much respect for them as I do the smart men I know.

[Assistant] Well, I really appreciate all the words of experience and information that you’ve given us today and all the insight that only you can have after forty-three years.

[User] Well, I don’t know if I’ve told you anything you didn’t already know.

[Assistant] Lots and lots and lots.

[User] I hope it’s of some value.

[Assistant] It is of value, and your service, especially, so thanks again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t know if I’ve told you anything you didn’t already know.

[Assistant] Lots and lots and lots.

[User] I hope it’s of some value.

[Assistant] It is of value, and your service, especially, so thanks again.

[User] Thank you. I feel very special in being given the opportunity to participate in this.

[Assistant] Well, I can truly say you’re one of a kind, so we’re really glad that you were able to sit down and talk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope it’s of some value.

[Assistant] It is of value, and your service, especially, so thanks again.

[User] Thank you. I feel very special in being given the opportunity to participate in this.

[Assistant] Well, I can truly say you’re one of a kind, so we’re really glad that you were able to sit down and talk.

[User] Well, that’s what I’m saying. I mean, I didn’t know anything about it until Courtney said something to me about it.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll have to tell him thank you, so we got some good stuff from you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. I feel very special in being given the opportunity to participate in this.

[Assistant] Well, I can truly say you’re one of a kind, so we’re really glad that you were able to sit down and talk.

[User] Well, that’s what I’m saying. I mean, I didn’t know anything about it until Courtney said something to me about it.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll have to tell him thank you, so we got some good stuff from you.

[User] Well, he called me the other day, and he wanted to be sure that he hadn’t lost touch with me, because he hadn’t heard from me. I said, “You haven’t lost touch with me. I’ve got your e-mail. I just haven’t have time,” I said, “and I’m busy getting ready for this oral history thing that you got me into, Courtney.”\n\n He said, “Oh, that’s great. That’s fabulous.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes. I’ll have to tell him thank you, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s what I’m saying. I mean, I didn’t know anything about it until Courtney said something to me about it.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll have to tell him thank you, so we got some good stuff from you.

[User] Well, he called me the other day, and he wanted to be sure that he hadn’t lost touch with me, because he hadn’t heard from me. I said, “You haven’t lost touch with me. I’ve got your e-mail. I just haven’t have time,” I said, “and I’m busy getting ready for this oral history thing that you got me into, Courtney.”\n\n He said, “Oh, that’s great. That’s fabulous.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes. I’ll have to tell him thank you, too.

[User] He and Scott Pace both said something to me about it, and then I found out in talking to Joe Allen that he had also—I knew the program was out there, but I just, again, had never had the luxury of time to get on the website and see what was on there and who had participated in it. Of course, now that I understand it, I’m going to be out there selling it.\n\n But I’m going to have to find you a financial backer, I guess. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, we hope not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as barren?

[Assistant] Not as barren as one would have believed.

[User] No, it wasn't. It wasn't. We had a group of people outside of NASA who felt we should fly those animals, so we set up a program to do that. We had a whole lot of things that we were measuring on those chimps. We didn't learn an awful lot from flying those animals. I mean, we really did it to satisfy people not in the agency.

[Assistant] Did it help you perfect any of the systems?

[User] Not really. Not really. I think that the couch was almost like a substitute for a space suit. I think that we flew two chimps—we didn't learn a lot from them. In fact, we shocked the one for the whole time he was up there, and he was so mad when they opened that hatch, that he really started biting people.\n\n But as a result of flying those, there was a national—there was a committee from the—I even forget now where they're from. Anyhow, they had insisted that we fly these chimps. They came in and we went through all the data, and they backed off and that was the end of it. Those trailers, I guess, are over at [George C.] Marshall [Space Flight Center] now. I don't know how Marshall ended up with all of our trailers, but they did.\n\n I don't know what else I could tell you about the animal program. I think we learned some things, but I really think that the real things we learned medically were with the astronauts themselves.

[Assistant] What types of things did you learn?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The suit contractor was B. F. Goodrich, and they were in Akron, Ohio. I'd gotten to know then when I was working for the Bureau of Aeronautics. They were a very, very, very good company to work with. We really had the Navy buy those suits. We gave them $5,000 a suit, which was like nothing. I don't know what the hell we pay for a suit now, but it's a lot more than that.

[Assistant] Did you have to make a lot of modifications to the suits?

[User] No, no, no. The thing about the Navy suit, it was basically open from the helmet all the way through. So if you had the inlet side was down here, and there was a distribution system that sent all the gas around over all the body, and it came back up, and the helmet had an outlet. So you circulated the gas over the body, brought it back up for him to breathe, and took it back down into the environmental control system where there was a lithium hydroxide bed that scrubbed the CO2 out, and there was a heat exchanger which cooled it. As I recall, we also had some charcoal to take any odors out that were in it. So it was a relatively simple operation.\n\n The suit itself was the latest suit that the Navy had built and was used in a lot of their fighter planes. It was one of the better suits that was built at the time. Funny thing is, it's the only B.F. Goodrich suit we flew was the one at Mercury. When we got to Gemini, we picked the Dave Clark suit. They had made some changes that they should have made if they wanted to fly in Mercury.

[Assistant] Did you feel that the Navy suit was adequate throughout Mercury?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I knew there were some temperature problems astronauts had on some of the flights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. The thing about the Navy suit, it was basically open from the helmet all the way through. So if you had the inlet side was down here, and there was a distribution system that sent all the gas around over all the body, and it came back up, and the helmet had an outlet. So you circulated the gas over the body, brought it back up for him to breathe, and took it back down into the environmental control system where there was a lithium hydroxide bed that scrubbed the CO2 out, and there was a heat exchanger which cooled it. As I recall, we also had some charcoal to take any odors out that were in it. So it was a relatively simple operation.\n\n The suit itself was the latest suit that the Navy had built and was used in a lot of their fighter planes. It was one of the better suits that was built at the time. Funny thing is, it's the only B.F. Goodrich suit we flew was the one at Mercury. When we got to Gemini, we picked the Dave Clark suit. They had made some changes that they should have made if they wanted to fly in Mercury.

[Assistant] Did you feel that the Navy suit was adequate throughout Mercury?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I knew there were some temperature problems astronauts had on some of the flights.

[User] I don't think so much the suit was the problem, though. It might have been. That's been a long time ago. I'd have to go back and look in the book, but I don't think we had a problem with the suit. I think we had more problems with the environmental control system, the way it was cooling, and whatever. But I don't recall any of the astronauts in flight are having a problem with that suit.

[Assistant] What about some other contractors? Do you work with McDonnell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I knew there were some temperature problems astronauts had on some of the flights.

[User] I don't think so much the suit was the problem, though. It might have been. That's been a long time ago. I'd have to go back and look in the book, but I don't think we had a problem with the suit. I think we had more problems with the environmental control system, the way it was cooling, and whatever. But I don't recall any of the astronauts in flight are having a problem with that suit.

[Assistant] What about some other contractors? Do you work with McDonnell?

[User] McDonnell-Douglas? I worked with them with I was with the Navy, Bureau of Aeronautics. They were a good company. They didn't always like to take direction, but I had no problem with them. I think John [F.] Yardley was the guy in charge of the thing out there. He was a good guy. He later came to NASA, but he was a very smart guy—smart, very smart. I had no problem at all with McDonnell Douglas. If something was wrong, you'd talk to them about it, they would correct it if they thought it was wrong. If they didn't think it was wrong, we'd debate it. But I had no problem with them.\n\n Let's see. Did they build the Mercury spacecraft? I guess they did. They had a contract with Air Research, who I'd worked with when I was with the Navy. They did a good job on the environmental control system—really did an outstanding job. In fact, most of the people who worked on things like the environmental control system, or the seats, they were all good, solid people, and they were all dedicated to getting the first man in space, even if the Russians had beat us at it.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when you were talking about the animal flights, that there were outside groups that basically forced you to institute that program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so much the suit was the problem, though. It might have been. That's been a long time ago. I'd have to go back and look in the book, but I don't think we had a problem with the suit. I think we had more problems with the environmental control system, the way it was cooling, and whatever. But I don't recall any of the astronauts in flight are having a problem with that suit.

[Assistant] What about some other contractors? Do you work with McDonnell?

[User] McDonnell-Douglas? I worked with them with I was with the Navy, Bureau of Aeronautics. They were a good company. They didn't always like to take direction, but I had no problem with them. I think John [F.] Yardley was the guy in charge of the thing out there. He was a good guy. He later came to NASA, but he was a very smart guy—smart, very smart. I had no problem at all with McDonnell Douglas. If something was wrong, you'd talk to them about it, they would correct it if they thought it was wrong. If they didn't think it was wrong, we'd debate it. But I had no problem with them.\n\n Let's see. Did they build the Mercury spacecraft? I guess they did. They had a contract with Air Research, who I'd worked with when I was with the Navy. They did a good job on the environmental control system—really did an outstanding job. In fact, most of the people who worked on things like the environmental control system, or the seats, they were all good, solid people, and they were all dedicated to getting the first man in space, even if the Russians had beat us at it.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when you were talking about the animal flights, that there were outside groups that basically forced you to institute that program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were there any other outside groups that put pressure on your or your division to do anything in particular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were there any other outside groups that put pressure on your or your division to do anything in particular?

[User] Well, they didn't so much put pressure on my division as they did on the Space Task Group. I was the deputy chief of the division, and so we had to bear the brunt of their insistence that we do things, which was all right, because we did what they wanted, and I think we were successful. I can't think of any reason why, after we flew both of those animals, they had no problems with us flying the men. There were some people on that committee that were pretty strong about things that shouldn't have been. But after we demonstrated what we did with the chimps, they never bothered us anymore.

[Assistant] Are there any special memories you have of the Mercury Program?

[User] Special memories. Well, I have to think about that. I guess Al Shepard's first flight was kind of a special memory for me. Gus Grissom's flight afterwards was kind of anticlimactic. I think John Glenn's mission was very memorable to me. So I don't know. It's a funny thing. You work on a program like that, and each flight has got something special about it. John Glenn is a great American, in my opinion. I've known him a long time, not that we're real close, we're not. He's getting ready to fly again. I guess of all the guys who flew in Mercury, Al Shepard and John Glenn are probably the people I think were the best. Schirra to some extent, but once Wally got in flight, Wally was in control, you know.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with any of the astronauts on the seat or the environmental control system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You guys must be getting tired of seeing me.

[Assistant] No, absolutely not. We always look forward to people coming in.\n\n Let’s begin by talking about your Shuttle-Mir mission. How did this mission differ from your other Shuttle missions?

[User] The most significant things were, number one, I was going somewhere other than just around the Earth. I was actually going to go visit some other spacecraft. I was going to go visit people that were living in space, and it was my first opportunity to have a direct working relationship with the Russians.

[Assistant] Before you went up there, did you actually learn Russian?

[User] They tried to teach me some Russian. It was pretty futile, because I’m not good at languages at all. Plus, we got assigned late enough that we really didn’t have that much free time to really concentrate on the language. If we’d had another six months maybe we could have front-loaded the language training and got somewhere with it. But, fortunately, it wasn’t that necessary. We had a couple guys on the crew that were halfway reasonable with language, so that helped out.

[Assistant] Did you guys have any challenges on board this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The most significant things were, number one, I was going somewhere other than just around the Earth. I was actually going to go visit some other spacecraft. I was going to go visit people that were living in space, and it was my first opportunity to have a direct working relationship with the Russians.

[Assistant] Before you went up there, did you actually learn Russian?

[User] They tried to teach me some Russian. It was pretty futile, because I’m not good at languages at all. Plus, we got assigned late enough that we really didn’t have that much free time to really concentrate on the language. If we’d had another six months maybe we could have front-loaded the language training and got somewhere with it. But, fortunately, it wasn’t that necessary. We had a couple guys on the crew that were halfway reasonable with language, so that helped out.

[Assistant] Did you guys have any challenges on board this mission?

[User] You mean during the mission itself?

[Assistant] During the mission itself or during training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tried to teach me some Russian. It was pretty futile, because I’m not good at languages at all. Plus, we got assigned late enough that we really didn’t have that much free time to really concentrate on the language. If we’d had another six months maybe we could have front-loaded the language training and got somewhere with it. But, fortunately, it wasn’t that necessary. We had a couple guys on the crew that were halfway reasonable with language, so that helped out.

[Assistant] Did you guys have any challenges on board this mission?

[User] You mean during the mission itself?

[Assistant] During the mission itself or during training.

[User] No, I think, as I remember it, everything went pretty much as planned. Probably the biggest challenges were just learning how to relate to the Russians and to work with them, and trying to get enough engineering information that would allow us to understand the systems and the performance parameters of the docking module, which we carried into space and mounted to the International Space Station. I think those were probably the most interesting aspects from doing something different.

[Assistant] What were you main goals during this mission, or your assignments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean during the mission itself?

[Assistant] During the mission itself or during training.

[User] No, I think, as I remember it, everything went pretty much as planned. Probably the biggest challenges were just learning how to relate to the Russians and to work with them, and trying to get enough engineering information that would allow us to understand the systems and the performance parameters of the docking module, which we carried into space and mounted to the International Space Station. I think those were probably the most interesting aspects from doing something different.

[Assistant] What were you main goals during this mission, or your assignments?

[User] I flew as Mission Specialist number two, the flight engineer for the crew, and I also had pretty much overall responsibilities for the docking module, to understand its systems and to be ready to operate systems or react to things that didn’t work quite right.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed that there wasn’t an EVA [Extravehicular Activity] on this flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think, as I remember it, everything went pretty much as planned. Probably the biggest challenges were just learning how to relate to the Russians and to work with them, and trying to get enough engineering information that would allow us to understand the systems and the performance parameters of the docking module, which we carried into space and mounted to the International Space Station. I think those were probably the most interesting aspects from doing something different.

[Assistant] What were you main goals during this mission, or your assignments?

[User] I flew as Mission Specialist number two, the flight engineer for the crew, and I also had pretty much overall responsibilities for the docking module, to understand its systems and to be ready to operate systems or react to things that didn’t work quite right.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed that there wasn’t an EVA [Extravehicular Activity] on this flight?

[User] Of course. [Laughs] That would have been pretty neat to go outside on the Russian Mir station and have a chance to see their hardware up close and personal, especially since it had been in space for quite a long period of time at that point.

[Assistant] During this mission there was actually government furlough. How did that affect your mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I flew as Mission Specialist number two, the flight engineer for the crew, and I also had pretty much overall responsibilities for the docking module, to understand its systems and to be ready to operate systems or react to things that didn’t work quite right.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed that there wasn’t an EVA [Extravehicular Activity] on this flight?

[User] Of course. [Laughs] That would have been pretty neat to go outside on the Russian Mir station and have a chance to see their hardware up close and personal, especially since it had been in space for quite a long period of time at that point.

[Assistant] During this mission there was actually government furlough. How did that affect your mission?

[User] I guess it didn’t. The people in the Mission Control Center continued to work. It was maybe a little bit quieter because we didn’t have all the other hoopla going on in the background, but from our perspective, it was pretty much transparent.

[Assistant] I have read, though, that there was an unofficial web page for this flight. Do you remember that? It was called the “Utterly Unofficial STS-74 Mission Guide Website.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course. [Laughs] That would have been pretty neat to go outside on the Russian Mir station and have a chance to see their hardware up close and personal, especially since it had been in space for quite a long period of time at that point.

[Assistant] During this mission there was actually government furlough. How did that affect your mission?

[User] I guess it didn’t. The people in the Mission Control Center continued to work. It was maybe a little bit quieter because we didn’t have all the other hoopla going on in the background, but from our perspective, it was pretty much transparent.

[Assistant] I have read, though, that there was an unofficial web page for this flight. Do you remember that? It was called the “Utterly Unofficial STS-74 Mission Guide Website.”

[User] I don’t remember that, quite frankly. It probably was a Bill [William S.] McArthur thing, but I’m not sure. [Laughs] I honestly don’t remember that. That’s a good one. I’ll have to go back and see if I can dig out any information on that one. Obviously, we were pretty intense in our training; getting ready to go fly, I guess.

[Assistant] During this mission you received a number of phone calls from various people, like the United Nations Secretary General, the Russian Prime Minister. Do you remember any of these phone calls and conversations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess it didn’t. The people in the Mission Control Center continued to work. It was maybe a little bit quieter because we didn’t have all the other hoopla going on in the background, but from our perspective, it was pretty much transparent.

[Assistant] I have read, though, that there was an unofficial web page for this flight. Do you remember that? It was called the “Utterly Unofficial STS-74 Mission Guide Website.”

[User] I don’t remember that, quite frankly. It probably was a Bill [William S.] McArthur thing, but I’m not sure. [Laughs] I honestly don’t remember that. That’s a good one. I’ll have to go back and see if I can dig out any information on that one. Obviously, we were pretty intense in our training; getting ready to go fly, I guess.

[Assistant] During this mission you received a number of phone calls from various people, like the United Nations Secretary General, the Russian Prime Minister. Do you remember any of these phone calls and conversations?

[User] I remember them. I don’t remember much of the detail about it, but I thought it was pretty neat to have that level of importance placed on the mission and what we were doing up there. We did fly a copy of the United Nations treaty, which basically calls all signees, all countries who signed the treaty, to treat any unexpected guests from on high that drop into the country to help with the rescue and good treatment of them. Then after the mission, we took that back to the United Nations and presented it back to them.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that trip to New York?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember that, quite frankly. It probably was a Bill [William S.] McArthur thing, but I’m not sure. [Laughs] I honestly don’t remember that. That’s a good one. I’ll have to go back and see if I can dig out any information on that one. Obviously, we were pretty intense in our training; getting ready to go fly, I guess.

[Assistant] During this mission you received a number of phone calls from various people, like the United Nations Secretary General, the Russian Prime Minister. Do you remember any of these phone calls and conversations?

[User] I remember them. I don’t remember much of the detail about it, but I thought it was pretty neat to have that level of importance placed on the mission and what we were doing up there. We did fly a copy of the United Nations treaty, which basically calls all signees, all countries who signed the treaty, to treat any unexpected guests from on high that drop into the country to help with the rescue and good treatment of them. Then after the mission, we took that back to the United Nations and presented it back to them.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that trip to New York?

[User] That was a lot of fun. That was one of the few times I’ve actually ever spent much time in Manhattan, [New York], and we got to go with the Russians, and we spent most of the day in the United Nations and made some presentations and got a chance to visit with many of the diplomats. It was a very unique experience for us.\n\n We also got a chance to do a bit of touring around New York City, [New York]. I’ll never forget one of the places we did go was to the World Trade Center towers. My only time there. We did go all the way up to the observation deck and look out. So, not too many years later, it was quite a mental feeling to realize what was going on.

[Assistant] Yes, that must have been. What are your other memories about this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember them. I don’t remember much of the detail about it, but I thought it was pretty neat to have that level of importance placed on the mission and what we were doing up there. We did fly a copy of the United Nations treaty, which basically calls all signees, all countries who signed the treaty, to treat any unexpected guests from on high that drop into the country to help with the rescue and good treatment of them. Then after the mission, we took that back to the United Nations and presented it back to them.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that trip to New York?

[User] That was a lot of fun. That was one of the few times I’ve actually ever spent much time in Manhattan, [New York], and we got to go with the Russians, and we spent most of the day in the United Nations and made some presentations and got a chance to visit with many of the diplomats. It was a very unique experience for us.\n\n We also got a chance to do a bit of touring around New York City, [New York]. I’ll never forget one of the places we did go was to the World Trade Center towers. My only time there. We did go all the way up to the observation deck and look out. So, not too many years later, it was quite a mental feeling to realize what was going on.

[Assistant] Yes, that must have been. What are your other memories about this mission?

[User] I remember going to Russia I think at least three times for training sessions on the hardware and inspection of the hardware. I can remember at least one of the times we went when it was really cold. I think it was this trip that we were—no, it was a different trip, an earlier trip to Russia. I was recalling a time when we were at Star City, [Russia], and we were at a big statue outside of one of the facilities and it was real icy, and I slipped and fell and everybody else thought that that was pretty funny. [Laughs]

[Assistant] What was it like training in Russia? How was it different from training at JSC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In part it was. In part it was. The MMU had two hand controllers, one for translations, one for rotations. The SAFER’s got one hand controller and a switch to change between rotation and translation. It has a little stabilizing gyro on it so that you can stop your attitude excursions, a tumble, if you will. And it does have one-pound thrusters that allow you to push yourself back toward the Station.

[Assistant] On this flight there were also two satellites that were launched. What role did you play in that?

[User] I was a photographer on both of those satellites that were launched. I think Rick [Frederick W.] Sturckow launched both the satellites, if I remember correctly. One of them was for the Air Force. It was a technology demonstration satellite that had several different pretty unique experiments in it. I don’t remember a whole lot of the details now. The other one was for the country of Argentina, and it was, again, some technologies that they were trying to develop a stronger in-country space capability. I remember one of them was designed to track whales, I think, and I forget what the others were for, but there were about three or four experiments they had in those also. Both of the satellites stayed in orbit for a period of, I think, about six months or so after we released them.

[Assistant] Are there any interesting anecdotes or stories from that mission that you recall?

[User] Now you’re putting me on the spot. I should have done my homework on this a little more. No. What do you have in mind?

[Assistant] I didn’t have anything. Surprisingly, your later missions there’s not as much detail as there are on the earlier missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a concern in the Astronaut Office that as long lived as when John Young got his sixth flight, that probably nobody would ever be able to go beyond six. You said that I surpassed John Young. I will never surpass John Young no matter what I do in my life. John is my hero, and he has done so many incredible things for this country with our program, that I don’t think anybody could ever surpass what he’s done.\n\n Susy Young will tell you that John also has seven launches, one of them just happens to be from the surface of the Moon.

[Assistant] That’s one way of looking at it, yes.

[User] I would trade several of mine for one of those. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Stick around long enough, you know.

[User] I think that’s probably not in the cards, but we’ll see.\n\n It certainly was an honor and I still consider it a good start. I would like to do eight, nine, ten, whatever. I just see it as being a fact that I’ve been willing to stick around and work hard and continue to be excited about what I’m doing, and I think Franklin [R.] Chang[-Diaz] would tell you the same thing, when you talk to him, that we love what we do and we feel very excited about the opportunities we’ve had.\n\n The fact that we’re the first two to ever fly seven times is neat, but I hope it doesn’t last very long, because if it lasts long, that means that we aren’t progressing the way that we want to progress. So I think my record for the number of U.S. spacewalks and time outside I hope get eclipsed very soon, and I hope that somebody goes well beyond my record of seven flights. I mean, it’s nice personal things to have, but for the country and for mankind, if they aren’t wiped out and exceeded, then we’re not doing the right thing.

[Assistant] What did the media think? Did the media cover this at all?