[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. It was the little, um, minuscular something that you might have contributed without even knowing it. But because we're Americans in a, you know, an advanced society, supposedly at that time even, even more so maybe. But the little contribution you might make by saying, you know, you might boil your water, you know, instead of drinking right from the. You know, you might find out you're not having so many colds or what have you, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah. So your children might not be having dysentery.

[User] That's right. And I think that that was as much. The fact that we were living in a village where U.S. citizens had never lived before. Might once in a while come in with other, you know, somehow get to a village like mine. Very questionable, except for the fact that they did have these ceramic factories here.

[Assistant] Oh, people would come in to.

[User] See what the ceramic factory looked like, you know, and all that. I don't think that, you know, and they were small, they were not big operations. But we. The Peace Corps generally, I think that even today, after spending some time in El Salvador, I could see that the presence of the Peace Corps is as much an uplift as anything else in a country. That someone, some foreigner, came down here to live with us and, you know, actually lived in our village.

[Assistant] And did a few things a little bit differently.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And I think that that was as much. The fact that we were living in a village where U.S. citizens had never lived before. Might once in a while come in with other, you know, somehow get to a village like mine. Very questionable, except for the fact that they did have these ceramic factories here.

[Assistant] Oh, people would come in to.

[User] See what the ceramic factory looked like, you know, and all that. I don't think that, you know, and they were small, they were not big operations. But we. The Peace Corps generally, I think that even today, after spending some time in El Salvador, I could see that the presence of the Peace Corps is as much an uplift as anything else in a country. That someone, some foreigner, came down here to live with us and, you know, actually lived in our village.

[Assistant] And did a few things a little bit differently.

[User] That's right. Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] How did you manage to? Surely you wanted to tell your family in Florida about some of the things you were doing, right? How did you let them know how you were and what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] How did you manage to? Surely you wanted to tell your family in Florida about some of the things you were doing, right? How did you let them know how you were and what you were doing?

[User] Well, you know. The frustration is always so easy to communicate to folks back home, you know, and that possibly was a contributing factor of what, you know, what our life was like there. But you know, my family was pretty good, especially my mother. My mother used to write me all the time, you know, but she was that type of person. She had a wonderful penmanship and she was, you know, born and raised in Iowa. And she was only an eighth grade education, but she got a job with a bank because of her penmanship. Her penmanship, they were taught the.

[Assistant] Palmer method?

[User] Palmer method. And she had this beautiful penmanship. And you know, in those days, the typewriters were just coming on.

[Assistant] And ledgers were kept by hand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know. The frustration is always so easy to communicate to folks back home, you know, and that possibly was a contributing factor of what, you know, what our life was like there. But you know, my family was pretty good, especially my mother. My mother used to write me all the time, you know, but she was that type of person. She had a wonderful penmanship and she was, you know, born and raised in Iowa. And she was only an eighth grade education, but she got a job with a bank because of her penmanship. Her penmanship, they were taught the.

[Assistant] Palmer method?

[User] Palmer method. And she had this beautiful penmanship. And you know, in those days, the typewriters were just coming on.

[Assistant] And ledgers were kept by hand.

[User] Right. Everything was kept by hand. So my mother wrote, you know, great letters and kept up to date, and I used to write back more about what I envision might be going on at 1190 Beers Drive in Miami Beach, Florida, because there were still brothers and sisters living there. And if they weren't living in that house, they were living nearby. And and so it was always, I sort of kidded them about, you know, how life was progressing without me.

[Assistant] How long would it take for a letter to get from El Carmen to Miami Beach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Palmer method. And she had this beautiful penmanship. And you know, in those days, the typewriters were just coming on.

[Assistant] And ledgers were kept by hand.

[User] Right. Everything was kept by hand. So my mother wrote, you know, great letters and kept up to date, and I used to write back more about what I envision might be going on at 1190 Beers Drive in Miami Beach, Florida, because there were still brothers and sisters living there. And if they weren't living in that house, they were living nearby. And and so it was always, I sort of kidded them about, you know, how life was progressing without me.

[Assistant] How long would it take for a letter to get from El Carmen to Miami Beach?

[User]
Probably faster than the letter to get from Miami Beach to El Carmen. Mainly because they did have a good postal service, and it was inexpensive. It was fairly inexpensive. And I think that my letters arrived quicker than theirs to me. I know one thing, that my wife, my wife now, who I was dating a little bit in college, sent me a Christmas package of brownies. And I got it like in May, you know. So it was really. Still ate them.

Oh!

But it was. It was. That was sort of the biggest discrepancy, perhaps in the communication. I never, I tried calling home once in a while, or once or twice or three times.

[Assistant] From Bogota maybe? Or Medellin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Everything was kept by hand. So my mother wrote, you know, great letters and kept up to date, and I used to write back more about what I envision might be going on at 1190 Beers Drive in Miami Beach, Florida, because there were still brothers and sisters living there. And if they weren't living in that house, they were living nearby. And and so it was always, I sort of kidded them about, you know, how life was progressing without me.

[Assistant] How long would it take for a letter to get from El Carmen to Miami Beach?

[User]
Probably faster than the letter to get from Miami Beach to El Carmen. Mainly because they did have a good postal service, and it was inexpensive. It was fairly inexpensive. And I think that my letters arrived quicker than theirs to me. I know one thing, that my wife, my wife now, who I was dating a little bit in college, sent me a Christmas package of brownies. And I got it like in May, you know. So it was really. Still ate them.

Oh!

But it was. It was. That was sort of the biggest discrepancy, perhaps in the communication. I never, I tried calling home once in a while, or once or twice or three times.

[Assistant] From Bogota maybe? Or Medellin?

[User] Yeah, from Medellin. But the connections were really not very good. So I just gave up on that.

[Assistant] Oh, what a contrast between communication then and communication today with today's Peace Corps volunteers, where they tweet and email. Instant communication.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Probably faster than the letter to get from Miami Beach to El Carmen. Mainly because they did have a good postal service, and it was inexpensive. It was fairly inexpensive. And I think that my letters arrived quicker than theirs to me. I know one thing, that my wife, my wife now, who I was dating a little bit in college, sent me a Christmas package of brownies. And I got it like in May, you know. So it was really. Still ate them.

Oh!

But it was. It was. That was sort of the biggest discrepancy, perhaps in the communication. I never, I tried calling home once in a while, or once or twice or three times.

[Assistant] From Bogota maybe? Or Medellin?

[User] Yeah, from Medellin. But the connections were really not very good. So I just gave up on that.

[Assistant] Oh, what a contrast between communication then and communication today with today's Peace Corps volunteers, where they tweet and email. Instant communication.

[User] That's right. Right. And you know, communications between them, you know. When I got into El Salvador, I was amazed at how many kids had cell phones.

[Assistant] That's right. And the volunteers could talk to each other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, from Medellin. But the connections were really not very good. So I just gave up on that.

[Assistant] Oh, what a contrast between communication then and communication today with today's Peace Corps volunteers, where they tweet and email. Instant communication.

[User] That's right. Right. And you know, communications between them, you know. When I got into El Salvador, I was amazed at how many kids had cell phones.

[Assistant] That's right. And the volunteers could talk to each other.

[User] I think everybody has a cell phone. I think they issued cell phones.

[Assistant] Yes, I think you're right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Right. And you know, communications between them, you know. When I got into El Salvador, I was amazed at how many kids had cell phones.

[Assistant] That's right. And the volunteers could talk to each other.

[User] I think everybody has a cell phone. I think they issued cell phones.

[Assistant] Yes, I think you're right.

[User] And they issued me a cell phone. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, they issued me a cell phone too. It was very interesting.

[Assistant] And we, on the other hand, back in the sixties, were totally isolated from other volunteers as well as from Washington.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think everybody has a cell phone. I think they issued cell phones.

[Assistant] Yes, I think you're right.

[User] And they issued me a cell phone. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, they issued me a cell phone too. It was very interesting.

[Assistant] And we, on the other hand, back in the sixties, were totally isolated from other volunteers as well as from Washington.

[User] Oh yeah. Because we had a central. In my village, there was a central office for the telephone, attached to the church as I remember. I mean, I guess they rented a space from the church. It was a small cubbyhole. And you could get messages. You could get phone calls from, and someone would run to your house and get you, and you'd come down to answer the phone. But, uh, it was so prehistoric that, you know, I seldom used it. Maybe a couple of times I got a phone call. Either from Medellin, or I think one time there was an effort to get to me from Miami. But uh, I didn't.

[Assistant] It didn't work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they issued me a cell phone. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, they issued me a cell phone too. It was very interesting.

[Assistant] And we, on the other hand, back in the sixties, were totally isolated from other volunteers as well as from Washington.

[User] Oh yeah. Because we had a central. In my village, there was a central office for the telephone, attached to the church as I remember. I mean, I guess they rented a space from the church. It was a small cubbyhole. And you could get messages. You could get phone calls from, and someone would run to your house and get you, and you'd come down to answer the phone. But, uh, it was so prehistoric that, you know, I seldom used it. Maybe a couple of times I got a phone call. Either from Medellin, or I think one time there was an effort to get to me from Miami. But uh, I didn't.

[Assistant] It didn't work.

[User] So communication. It wasn't so bad either.

[Assistant] No, our expectations were different. I want to go back with you into your village and you're organizing farmers who are growing tomatoes and you're trying to get a cooperative thing together, which would be for everybody's benefit. Who owned the land? Were these people owning their own? Do they have ownership of the land, which they were using to grow tomatoes? Or were they renting from a wealthy person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Because we had a central. In my village, there was a central office for the telephone, attached to the church as I remember. I mean, I guess they rented a space from the church. It was a small cubbyhole. And you could get messages. You could get phone calls from, and someone would run to your house and get you, and you'd come down to answer the phone. But, uh, it was so prehistoric that, you know, I seldom used it. Maybe a couple of times I got a phone call. Either from Medellin, or I think one time there was an effort to get to me from Miami. But uh, I didn't.

[Assistant] It didn't work.

[User] So communication. It wasn't so bad either.

[Assistant] No, our expectations were different. I want to go back with you into your village and you're organizing farmers who are growing tomatoes and you're trying to get a cooperative thing together, which would be for everybody's benefit. Who owned the land? Were these people owning their own? Do they have ownership of the land, which they were using to grow tomatoes? Or were they renting from a wealthy person?

[User] Yeah, it was. There was a mix. There was a mix. And there were a lot of people who lived on property that was rented and the rents were very minimal, you know. But the owners might have been one of the owners of the ceramic place, ceramic mill. And he was not into, you know, running blindly.

[Assistant] He owned it, but he didn't want to work it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So communication. It wasn't so bad either.

[Assistant] No, our expectations were different. I want to go back with you into your village and you're organizing farmers who are growing tomatoes and you're trying to get a cooperative thing together, which would be for everybody's benefit. Who owned the land? Were these people owning their own? Do they have ownership of the land, which they were using to grow tomatoes? Or were they renting from a wealthy person?

[User] Yeah, it was. There was a mix. There was a mix. And there were a lot of people who lived on property that was rented and the rents were very minimal, you know. But the owners might have been one of the owners of the ceramic place, ceramic mill. And he was not into, you know, running blindly.

[Assistant] He owned it, but he didn't want to work it.

[User] Yeah. So he'd rent it to someone, you know, and they could stay as long as they want to as long as there wasn't any big development. The interesting part about is my wife and I went to Colombia in 1995 for a return visit.

[Assistant] Was that your first visit back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So he'd rent it to someone, you know, and they could stay as long as they want to as long as there wasn't any big development. The interesting part about is my wife and I went to Colombia in 1995 for a return visit.

[Assistant] Was that your first visit back?

[User] First visit back. And you know, they were. It was completely different. They had built an airport that was 15 minutes away from my village. Whereas it took me two and a half hours to get to Medellin, where the only airport was, you know? So not only was that a big change, but the village I was from went from, you know, 10,000 people to like 50,000.

[Assistant] City.

[User] Yeah, right. And although I have to tell you, they had a public library and they had a public library ever since I left, in that village. But the government had come in to subsidize it. So now, not only municipal government, but the state government. And so and I went into that library and there were kids on computers in the library.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. March along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First visit back. And you know, they were. It was completely different. They had built an airport that was 15 minutes away from my village. Whereas it took me two and a half hours to get to Medellin, where the only airport was, you know? So not only was that a big change, but the village I was from went from, you know, 10,000 people to like 50,000.

[Assistant] City.

[User] Yeah, right. And although I have to tell you, they had a public library and they had a public library ever since I left, in that village. But the government had come in to subsidize it. So now, not only municipal government, but the state government. And so and I went into that library and there were kids on computers in the library.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. March along.

[User] So that was really.

[Assistant] But the idea of the library, and the ownership of the library by the community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. And although I have to tell you, they had a public library and they had a public library ever since I left, in that village. But the government had come in to subsidize it. So now, not only municipal government, but the state government. And so and I went into that library and there were kids on computers in the library.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. March along.

[User] So that was really.

[Assistant] But the idea of the library, and the ownership of the library by the community.

[User] Who knows what it's like now. They said they're closing libraries now and having I mean, I saw a piece in the news on one of the programs, that one place closed the library and everything is audio, you know.

[Assistant] And digital. So those of us who enjoy turning the paper pages of a book are not so sure that's a good thing. Um. So you are on your own pretty much. You didn't have people from Peace Corps or from the government telling you what to do. Was there any influence from United States agricultural corporations? I'm thinking Monsanto, for example. I don't mean Monsanto, but like as an example of a corporation that was trying to push their fertilizer or pesticides. Were you encouraged to promote the use of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was really.

[Assistant] But the idea of the library, and the ownership of the library by the community.

[User] Who knows what it's like now. They said they're closing libraries now and having I mean, I saw a piece in the news on one of the programs, that one place closed the library and everything is audio, you know.

[Assistant] And digital. So those of us who enjoy turning the paper pages of a book are not so sure that's a good thing. Um. So you are on your own pretty much. You didn't have people from Peace Corps or from the government telling you what to do. Was there any influence from United States agricultural corporations? I'm thinking Monsanto, for example. I don't mean Monsanto, but like as an example of a corporation that was trying to push their fertilizer or pesticides. Were you encouraged to promote the use of?

[User] Yeah, no. I never came across. An interesting part of my two years in Colombia was that when I was in college, I worked as a switchboard operator at WDSU, television and radio. Basically television. Radio was across the street, but I worked part time as a switchboard operator. And when they got wind that I was going to Colombia, one of the newscasters there set up an idea that he would come down to Colombia and do a story about that. Unfortunately, something happened. I don't know whether it was the assassination of President Kennedy, but that was pretty close to the end of my service.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right, that would have happened while you were in Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Who knows what it's like now. They said they're closing libraries now and having I mean, I saw a piece in the news on one of the programs, that one place closed the library and everything is audio, you know.

[Assistant] And digital. So those of us who enjoy turning the paper pages of a book are not so sure that's a good thing. Um. So you are on your own pretty much. You didn't have people from Peace Corps or from the government telling you what to do. Was there any influence from United States agricultural corporations? I'm thinking Monsanto, for example. I don't mean Monsanto, but like as an example of a corporation that was trying to push their fertilizer or pesticides. Were you encouraged to promote the use of?

[User] Yeah, no. I never came across. An interesting part of my two years in Colombia was that when I was in college, I worked as a switchboard operator at WDSU, television and radio. Basically television. Radio was across the street, but I worked part time as a switchboard operator. And when they got wind that I was going to Colombia, one of the newscasters there set up an idea that he would come down to Colombia and do a story about that. Unfortunately, something happened. I don't know whether it was the assassination of President Kennedy, but that was pretty close to the end of my service.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right, that would have happened while you were in Colombia.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Oh dear. Well, let's get back to talk about that in a minute.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, no. I never came across. An interesting part of my two years in Colombia was that when I was in college, I worked as a switchboard operator at WDSU, television and radio. Basically television. Radio was across the street, but I worked part time as a switchboard operator. And when they got wind that I was going to Colombia, one of the newscasters there set up an idea that he would come down to Colombia and do a story about that. Unfortunately, something happened. I don't know whether it was the assassination of President Kennedy, but that was pretty close to the end of my service.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right, that would have happened while you were in Colombia.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Oh dear. Well, let's get back to talk about that in a minute.

[User] Yeah, but anyway, but he never made it, but that was the only other thing. The other thing was I worked also part time in college for a coffee importer and sugar refiner. And Colombia, of course, is big coffee producer. And they were writing me letters asking me, you know, are you working near coffee producing country? And we want to talk to you about, you know, your future with our company.

[Assistant] You haven't mentioned anything about coffee growing. Tomato growing, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Oh dear. Well, let's get back to talk about that in a minute.

[User] Yeah, but anyway, but he never made it, but that was the only other thing. The other thing was I worked also part time in college for a coffee importer and sugar refiner. And Colombia, of course, is big coffee producer. And they were writing me letters asking me, you know, are you working near coffee producing country? And we want to talk to you about, you know, your future with our company.

[Assistant] You haven't mentioned anything about coffee growing. Tomato growing, yeah.

[User] That's right. But coffee growing. I wasn't familiar with it because in my area, it was not. It was not being grown. But just down the road, the coffee, the coffee farms, I mean, coffee plantations, were prolific. The tomato program was doing well for a while, and all of a sudden the participants sort of lost interest. And that was a disappointment because I thought that would be, you know, good because they do use a lot of tomatoes.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you ever find out what was behind that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but anyway, but he never made it, but that was the only other thing. The other thing was I worked also part time in college for a coffee importer and sugar refiner. And Colombia, of course, is big coffee producer. And they were writing me letters asking me, you know, are you working near coffee producing country? And we want to talk to you about, you know, your future with our company.

[Assistant] You haven't mentioned anything about coffee growing. Tomato growing, yeah.

[User] That's right. But coffee growing. I wasn't familiar with it because in my area, it was not. It was not being grown. But just down the road, the coffee, the coffee farms, I mean, coffee plantations, were prolific. The tomato program was doing well for a while, and all of a sudden the participants sort of lost interest. And that was a disappointment because I thought that would be, you know, good because they do use a lot of tomatoes.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you ever find out what was behind that?

[User] I think it was just a lack of cohesion among the farmers, you know, and deciding that they would do it on their own. So it was, that was sort of disappointment, but, you know. Since I was alone, and finally they gave up on sending me a Peace Corps volunteer every few months.

[Assistant] And you weren't replaced, you said, when you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. But coffee growing. I wasn't familiar with it because in my area, it was not. It was not being grown. But just down the road, the coffee, the coffee farms, I mean, coffee plantations, were prolific. The tomato program was doing well for a while, and all of a sudden the participants sort of lost interest. And that was a disappointment because I thought that would be, you know, good because they do use a lot of tomatoes.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you ever find out what was behind that?

[User] I think it was just a lack of cohesion among the farmers, you know, and deciding that they would do it on their own. So it was, that was sort of disappointment, but, you know. Since I was alone, and finally they gave up on sending me a Peace Corps volunteer every few months.

[Assistant] And you weren't replaced, you said, when you left?

[User] No, I wasn't. Yeah. So once I got, you know, that was over with, I was able to, you know, devote more time to the library and to these schools that we were building. Two schools that we were building, one in the village, not too far from where I live. But then another one up into another farming area. And the priest was very involved with that one too, for some reason. He wanted to see a school for these children out there in the rural areas. So he used to come out with me all the time.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the actual construction of the building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was just a lack of cohesion among the farmers, you know, and deciding that they would do it on their own. So it was, that was sort of disappointment, but, you know. Since I was alone, and finally they gave up on sending me a Peace Corps volunteer every few months.

[Assistant] And you weren't replaced, you said, when you left?

[User] No, I wasn't. Yeah. So once I got, you know, that was over with, I was able to, you know, devote more time to the library and to these schools that we were building. Two schools that we were building, one in the village, not too far from where I live. But then another one up into another farming area. And the priest was very involved with that one too, for some reason. He wanted to see a school for these children out there in the rural areas. So he used to come out with me all the time.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the actual construction of the building?

[User] Yeah, but it was made with CINVA blocks, which is a combination of dirt and a little cement. And CARE was our and they provided the machines, which are handmade, hand operated. So, you know, like a press.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, to make the block.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn't. Yeah. So once I got, you know, that was over with, I was able to, you know, devote more time to the library and to these schools that we were building. Two schools that we were building, one in the village, not too far from where I live. But then another one up into another farming area. And the priest was very involved with that one too, for some reason. He wanted to see a school for these children out there in the rural areas. So he used to come out with me all the time.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the actual construction of the building?

[User] Yeah, but it was made with CINVA blocks, which is a combination of dirt and a little cement. And CARE was our and they provided the machines, which are handmade, hand operated. So, you know, like a press.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, to make the block.

[User] To make blocks and that's what we, that's what we built the school out of. I had a little bit of a problem with the local priest because he. All the rural schools had a living area, a bedroom, for the teacher. And he didn't want to do a bedroom for the teacher. But there was some word in the village that this teacher was, you know, a paramour of the priest, you know, which is not unusual, especially in Spanish countries.

[Assistant] But he didn't want to set her up with a room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but it was made with CINVA blocks, which is a combination of dirt and a little cement. And CARE was our and they provided the machines, which are handmade, hand operated. So, you know, like a press.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, to make the block.

[User] To make blocks and that's what we, that's what we built the school out of. I had a little bit of a problem with the local priest because he. All the rural schools had a living area, a bedroom, for the teacher. And he didn't want to do a bedroom for the teacher. But there was some word in the village that this teacher was, you know, a paramour of the priest, you know, which is not unusual, especially in Spanish countries.

[Assistant] But he didn't want to set her up with a room?

[User] With a room, yeah. So she had to come in from her, she had to come from her parents' home to the school. So there was something going on, because he wasn't looking to the future.

[Assistant] That's right. And they need get somebody else coming in from farther away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To make blocks and that's what we, that's what we built the school out of. I had a little bit of a problem with the local priest because he. All the rural schools had a living area, a bedroom, for the teacher. And he didn't want to do a bedroom for the teacher. But there was some word in the village that this teacher was, you know, a paramour of the priest, you know, which is not unusual, especially in Spanish countries.

[Assistant] But he didn't want to set her up with a room?

[User] With a room, yeah. So she had to come in from her, she had to come from her parents' home to the school. So there was something going on, because he wasn't looking to the future.

[Assistant] That's right. And they need get somebody else coming in from farther away.

[User] Right. So the other big effort we made was in a village, a rural, very rural, over a mountain. The farmers there wanted to carve a road so that they could get their product to the market on Saturday and Sunday easier, because otherwise it took, you know, a very long time to make this over the mountain and into the village.

[Assistant] On just a horse path or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With a room, yeah. So she had to come in from her, she had to come from her parents' home to the school. So there was something going on, because he wasn't looking to the future.

[Assistant] That's right. And they need get somebody else coming in from farther away.

[User] Right. So the other big effort we made was in a village, a rural, very rural, over a mountain. The farmers there wanted to carve a road so that they could get their product to the market on Saturday and Sunday easier, because otherwise it took, you know, a very long time to make this over the mountain and into the village.

[Assistant] On just a horse path or something.

[User] Yeah, right. So we were building a road, a dirt road, with oxen pulling the grader behind it. And the difficult part was to get out there and then come back in the same day, because it was a long trip. And if you're going to get anything done, then you had to, you know, you had to do it fast and you had very short time. And the first time I went up there, I had a partner and he went with me and we got out there on our horses. And the rest of the group, the priests went with us and, you know, other these officials from the health department and all that went with them. But they left right, shortly after the priests had a little blessing and all that. And then they left and we stayed and helped continue to build the, you know, to get these oxen.

[Assistant] Yes, get the work done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So the other big effort we made was in a village, a rural, very rural, over a mountain. The farmers there wanted to carve a road so that they could get their product to the market on Saturday and Sunday easier, because otherwise it took, you know, a very long time to make this over the mountain and into the village.

[Assistant] On just a horse path or something.

[User] Yeah, right. So we were building a road, a dirt road, with oxen pulling the grader behind it. And the difficult part was to get out there and then come back in the same day, because it was a long trip. And if you're going to get anything done, then you had to, you know, you had to do it fast and you had very short time. And the first time I went up there, I had a partner and he went with me and we got out there on our horses. And the rest of the group, the priests went with us and, you know, other these officials from the health department and all that went with them. But they left right, shortly after the priests had a little blessing and all that. And then they left and we stayed and helped continue to build the, you know, to get these oxen.

[Assistant] Yes, get the work done.

[User] And it got time, you know, to get out of there or it's going to be dark. So we got our horses and we started to go back and we got completely lost. We had to go back to where we started from and we had to sleep and we had to displace part of the family so that we could sleep in one of the beds. Because they didn't want us to, at that point, try to make it back in before it was dark.

[Assistant] Because it would be hazardous. It would be another cross on the side of the road.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. So we were building a road, a dirt road, with oxen pulling the grader behind it. And the difficult part was to get out there and then come back in the same day, because it was a long trip. And if you're going to get anything done, then you had to, you know, you had to do it fast and you had very short time. And the first time I went up there, I had a partner and he went with me and we got out there on our horses. And the rest of the group, the priests went with us and, you know, other these officials from the health department and all that went with them. But they left right, shortly after the priests had a little blessing and all that. And then they left and we stayed and helped continue to build the, you know, to get these oxen.

[Assistant] Yes, get the work done.

[User] And it got time, you know, to get out of there or it's going to be dark. So we got our horses and we started to go back and we got completely lost. We had to go back to where we started from and we had to sleep and we had to displace part of the family so that we could sleep in one of the beds. Because they didn't want us to, at that point, try to make it back in before it was dark.

[Assistant] Because it would be hazardous. It would be another cross on the side of the road.

[User] And after that, that partner of mine, he was from my group and we were great friends. But he asked for a transfer to another, so that was really the end of it, when he left. So, uh, I didn't have any other. One guy they sent out there and he went back into the village and he borrowed someone's motor scooter or something, and he had a wreck and he ended up in the hospital and they had to, they sent him back to the United States.

[Assistant] So there you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it got time, you know, to get out of there or it's going to be dark. So we got our horses and we started to go back and we got completely lost. We had to go back to where we started from and we had to sleep and we had to displace part of the family so that we could sleep in one of the beds. Because they didn't want us to, at that point, try to make it back in before it was dark.

[Assistant] Because it would be hazardous. It would be another cross on the side of the road.

[User] And after that, that partner of mine, he was from my group and we were great friends. But he asked for a transfer to another, so that was really the end of it, when he left. So, uh, I didn't have any other. One guy they sent out there and he went back into the village and he borrowed someone's motor scooter or something, and he had a wreck and he ended up in the hospital and they had to, they sent him back to the United States.

[Assistant] So there you were.

[User] There I was.

[Assistant] So you stayed the whole two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after that, that partner of mine, he was from my group and we were great friends. But he asked for a transfer to another, so that was really the end of it, when he left. So, uh, I didn't have any other. One guy they sent out there and he went back into the village and he borrowed someone's motor scooter or something, and he had a wreck and he ended up in the hospital and they had to, they sent him back to the United States.

[Assistant] So there you were.

[User] There I was.

[Assistant] So you stayed the whole two years?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you ever have the option of extending beyond that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There I was.

[Assistant] So you stayed the whole two years?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you ever have the option of extending beyond that?

[User] No. Well, they did. If you were, they did say, if you were in the middle of a project that you felt that, you know, your presence was important, you could extend. But I didn't feel like that was necessary at the end of the year. Some of my friends did stay for another half year or a year and uh, I wouldn't have minded it at all. But I just didn't have the, you know, I didn't want them to be misled that I was going to, you know, spend another six months or a year.

[Assistant] And I think there was somebody named Linda back here writing to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you ever have the option of extending beyond that?

[User] No. Well, they did. If you were, they did say, if you were in the middle of a project that you felt that, you know, your presence was important, you could extend. But I didn't feel like that was necessary at the end of the year. Some of my friends did stay for another half year or a year and uh, I wouldn't have minded it at all. But I just didn't have the, you know, I didn't want them to be misled that I was going to, you know, spend another six months or a year.

[Assistant] And I think there was somebody named Linda back here writing to you.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Did you travel on your way home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, they did. If you were, they did say, if you were in the middle of a project that you felt that, you know, your presence was important, you could extend. But I didn't feel like that was necessary at the end of the year. Some of my friends did stay for another half year or a year and uh, I wouldn't have minded it at all. But I just didn't have the, you know, I didn't want them to be misled that I was going to, you know, spend another six months or a year.

[Assistant] And I think there was somebody named Linda back here writing to you.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Did you travel on your way home?

[User] Yes. Four of us went from Bogota, Colombia. Flew from Bogota to Panama City, the city of Panama, the capital of Panama. And we bought. We heard that you could get an inexpensive car. You could buy a car inexpensively. And so one of the guys, he was interested because he wanted to buy the car when we got back to the States from the rest of us. So we all chipped in for the car and we got. But he wanted a Volkswagen. So there were two of us who were tall, like me. I was 6'3". And two of them were short, and it was misery. I left them in Guatemala.

[Assistant] A Volkswagen Bug?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Did you travel on your way home?

[User] Yes. Four of us went from Bogota, Colombia. Flew from Bogota to Panama City, the city of Panama, the capital of Panama. And we bought. We heard that you could get an inexpensive car. You could buy a car inexpensively. And so one of the guys, he was interested because he wanted to buy the car when we got back to the States from the rest of us. So we all chipped in for the car and we got. But he wanted a Volkswagen. So there were two of us who were tall, like me. I was 6'3". And two of them were short, and it was misery. I left them in Guatemala.

[Assistant] A Volkswagen Bug?

[User] Yeah. And I went to the Yucatan Peninsula from there, then flew back to New Orleans. But they went on and he bought the car from us and sent us money. But that was, uh, and the problem was that he was also interested in hurrying getting back to the United States. He was from Charlotte, North Carolina. And he was homesick, I guess.

[Assistant] That's too bad because there's a lot to be seen in between Panama City and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I went to the Yucatan Peninsula from there, then flew back to New Orleans. But they went on and he bought the car from us and sent us money. But that was, uh, and the problem was that he was also interested in hurrying getting back to the United States. He was from Charlotte, North Carolina. And he was homesick, I guess.

[Assistant] That's too bad because there's a lot to be seen in between Panama City and.

[User] In Central America, yeah. My wife and I had an opportunity, after my Peace Corps service in El Salvador, my wife came down and we backpacked from Panama up through Central America.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful.

[User] And we had a great experience.

[Assistant] You backpacked? But you were in your 60s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Central America, yeah. My wife and I had an opportunity, after my Peace Corps service in El Salvador, my wife came down and we backpacked from Panama up through Central America.

[Assistant] Oh, wonderful.

[User] And we had a great experience.

[Assistant] You backpacked? But you were in your 60s?

[User] We opted for collectivos and the chivas, the United States school busses that they turn into transportation vehicles for the rural people in all of Latin America. So that was a great experience too.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say that's important about what you did or what you were thinking about while you were there in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had a great experience.

[Assistant] You backpacked? But you were in your 60s?

[User] We opted for collectivos and the chivas, the United States school busses that they turn into transportation vehicles for the rural people in all of Latin America. So that was a great experience too.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say that's important about what you did or what you were thinking about while you were there in Colombia?

[User] Well. I don't know, there are a lot of, you know, when we were in Columbia, there were a lot of us who thought perhaps we needed more backup from the Peace Corps office or, you know, or CARE. But CARE was a little bit more responsive than actually the Peace Corps office was. Peace Corps just wanted to make sure that no one got seriously, seriously ill or in trouble.

[Assistant] But they didn't see themselves as supporting you in your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We opted for collectivos and the chivas, the United States school busses that they turn into transportation vehicles for the rural people in all of Latin America. So that was a great experience too.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say that's important about what you did or what you were thinking about while you were there in Colombia?

[User] Well. I don't know, there are a lot of, you know, when we were in Columbia, there were a lot of us who thought perhaps we needed more backup from the Peace Corps office or, you know, or CARE. But CARE was a little bit more responsive than actually the Peace Corps office was. Peace Corps just wanted to make sure that no one got seriously, seriously ill or in trouble.

[Assistant] But they didn't see themselves as supporting you in your work?

[User] Yeah, right, right. I didn't get the feeling of that. I felt that, uh. And it was just the opposite when I went to El Salvador. I thought that the support from the Peace Corps office was much greater than we ever had.

[Assistant] Huh. Isn't that interesting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right, right. I didn't get the feeling of that. I felt that, uh. And it was just the opposite when I went to El Salvador. I thought that the support from the Peace Corps office was much greater than we ever had.

[Assistant] Huh. Isn't that interesting?

[User] Yeah, yeah. So they learned something over the years. I mean, this was the first year of the Peace Corps, what we were in. But other than that, the experience was probably the most important and mind changing experience I had in my life, you know, because the rest of my life was in the United States and working and working, you know, in a job and dealing with, you know, the everyday things of raising a family and all that. Whereas Peace Corps experience was living in a different culture and feeling like you were accomplishing something, but also having a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And no one was telling you, you can't have the fun, you know, you have to put your nose to the wheel or whatever.

[Assistant] But they also wanted you to socialize with the locals, and you sure did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And no one was telling you, you can't have the fun, you know, you have to put your nose to the wheel or whatever.

[Assistant] But they also wanted you to socialize with the locals, and you sure did.

[User] That's right. Exactly. Yeah. And I loved it. I thought it was two of the best years of my life. You know, I still say that. And I think almost everyone I've ever come across says the same thing. Peace Corps was, you know, life changing for them and very much worthwhile. And I'm very active in the local Peace Corps returned volunteers here.

[Assistant] Great, great.

[User] In this city. And every year we got a new bunch of people coming back. And they're all, you know, they're all very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] Are you active in Colombia support network?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Exactly. Yeah. And I loved it. I thought it was two of the best years of my life. You know, I still say that. And I think almost everyone I've ever come across says the same thing. Peace Corps was, you know, life changing for them and very much worthwhile. And I'm very active in the local Peace Corps returned volunteers here.

[Assistant] Great, great.

[User] In this city. And every year we got a new bunch of people coming back. And they're all, you know, they're all very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] Are you active in Colombia support network?

[User] Yes, I am. Yeah, I am involved in that too. And I served on the board of the National Peace Corps Association some years ago.

[Assistant] Oh, good for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In this city. And every year we got a new bunch of people coming back. And they're all, you know, they're all very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] Are you active in Colombia support network?

[User] Yes, I am. Yeah, I am involved in that too. And I served on the board of the National Peace Corps Association some years ago.

[Assistant] Oh, good for you.

[User] And they are having a big recognition weekend and dinner, you know, for everyone. I don't know whether I'm going to go, but.

[Assistant] I hope you can.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I am. Yeah, I am involved in that too. And I served on the board of the National Peace Corps Association some years ago.

[Assistant] Oh, good for you.

[User] And they are having a big recognition weekend and dinner, you know, for everyone. I don't know whether I'm going to go, but.

[Assistant] I hope you can.

[User] Yeah, it would be nice. I have a lot of friends out there now that I did not know from my Peace Corps experience, but from being involved with the National Peace Corps Association.

[Assistant] There's a woman in Florida right now whose name, of course, because names are disappearing from my brain, who is very, very active in a Colombia project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it would be nice. I have a lot of friends out there now that I did not know from my Peace Corps experience, but from being involved with the National Peace Corps Association.

[Assistant] There's a woman in Florida right now whose name, of course, because names are disappearing from my brain, who is very, very active in a Colombia project.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Is that Helen?

[Assistant] Dudley.

[User] Dudley, yes, she has a great friend of mine. Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, good. I'm glad you know each other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Is that Helen?

[Assistant] Dudley.

[User] Dudley, yes, she has a great friend of mine. Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, good. I'm glad you know each other.

[User] Yeah, we know. We know each other. And she, my son is a chef in Miami. And the first dinner they had for fundraiser for the Colombia project, they had at my son's restaurant in Bal Harbour. And they gave, you know, a good price so that they can raise money.

[Assistant] Terrific. I'm glad you connected with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dudley, yes, she has a great friend of mine. Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, good. I'm glad you know each other.

[User] Yeah, we know. We know each other. And she, my son is a chef in Miami. And the first dinner they had for fundraiser for the Colombia project, they had at my son's restaurant in Bal Harbour. And they gave, you know, a good price so that they can raise money.

[Assistant] Terrific. I'm glad you connected with that.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I'm still, I'm still very much involved. She's a great person.

[Assistant] Isn't she? Absolutely remarkable. And then in Madison, Wisconsin, there's Jack Long and his wife Cecilia, who are very, very immersed in all things Colombia. Jack was in the Peace Corps in Panama. But having married a Colombian woman is very interested peace activities in Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we know. We know each other. And she, my son is a chef in Miami. And the first dinner they had for fundraiser for the Colombia project, they had at my son's restaurant in Bal Harbour. And they gave, you know, a good price so that they can raise money.

[Assistant] Terrific. I'm glad you connected with that.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I'm still, I'm still very much involved. She's a great person.

[Assistant] Isn't she? Absolutely remarkable. And then in Madison, Wisconsin, there's Jack Long and his wife Cecilia, who are very, very immersed in all things Colombia. Jack was in the Peace Corps in Panama. But having married a Colombian woman is very interested peace activities in Colombia.

[User] Yeah, right. Are they involved with the Colombia project?

[Assistant] It's a different project, it's called the Colombia, oh. Colombian network friend? I can't remember, I'm sorry. I can't remember. It's not Helen's project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I'm still, I'm still very much involved. She's a great person.

[Assistant] Isn't she? Absolutely remarkable. And then in Madison, Wisconsin, there's Jack Long and his wife Cecilia, who are very, very immersed in all things Colombia. Jack was in the Peace Corps in Panama. But having married a Colombian woman is very interested peace activities in Colombia.

[User] Yeah, right. Are they involved with the Colombia project?

[Assistant] It's a different project, it's called the Colombia, oh. Colombian network friend? I can't remember, I'm sorry. I can't remember. It's not Helen's project.

[User] No, no. It's a different one. It's a different one. And they advocate for, you know, like the Indian population in Colombia.

[Assistant] Yeah, and there's a peace community of some of, say, apartado, I think is what it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Are they involved with the Colombia project?

[Assistant] It's a different project, it's called the Colombia, oh. Colombian network friend? I can't remember, I'm sorry. I can't remember. It's not Helen's project.

[User] No, no. It's a different one. It's a different one. And they advocate for, you know, like the Indian population in Colombia.

[Assistant] Yeah, and there's a peace community of some of, say, apartado, I think is what it is.

[User] Yeah, that's probably the one I participate in. I participate in them. I never go to any of their things because, you know, it's a long way. Although I've never really, I've been in Wisconsin. Love Wisconsin. Are you from Wisconsin?

[Assistant] I live in Wisconsin now, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. It's a different one. It's a different one. And they advocate for, you know, like the Indian population in Colombia.

[Assistant] Yeah, and there's a peace community of some of, say, apartado, I think is what it is.

[User] Yeah, that's probably the one I participate in. I participate in them. I never go to any of their things because, you know, it's a long way. Although I've never really, I've been in Wisconsin. Love Wisconsin. Are you from Wisconsin?

[Assistant] I live in Wisconsin now, yeah.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I recruited for the Peace Corps when I got finished with my tour in Colombia, and they sent me to Wisconsin to start out in, um, what's the name of the city at the very top that's part of Minnesota, I think?

[Assistant] Superior, Wisconsin. Duluth, Minnesota.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's probably the one I participate in. I participate in them. I never go to any of their things because, you know, it's a long way. Although I've never really, I've been in Wisconsin. Love Wisconsin. Are you from Wisconsin?

[Assistant] I live in Wisconsin now, yeah.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I recruited for the Peace Corps when I got finished with my tour in Colombia, and they sent me to Wisconsin to start out in, um, what's the name of the city at the very top that's part of Minnesota, I think?

[Assistant] Superior, Wisconsin. Duluth, Minnesota.

[User] Duluth, Minnesota, and Superior. Yeah. So I went there first and then I traveled.

[Assistant] So you were working for Peace Corps after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I recruited for the Peace Corps when I got finished with my tour in Colombia, and they sent me to Wisconsin to start out in, um, what's the name of the city at the very top that's part of Minnesota, I think?

[Assistant] Superior, Wisconsin. Duluth, Minnesota.

[User] Duluth, Minnesota, and Superior. Yeah. So I went there first and then I traveled.

[Assistant] So you were working for Peace Corps after?

[User] Yeah. I came back and I was a recruiter. You know, they had this program where they took former volunteers and they sent them all over the country. And I drove from there all the way down to Madison. It was one of the nicest experiences that I've ever had. Yeah, it was, I loved it. I went from real cold snow and all that in Duluth down to into springtime. Yeah, it was great.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. Well, this has been a delightful interview. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was the water boiler.

[Assistant] The water boiler.

[User] Yes. Now, there was only—I’m not sure. There may not have been but one. Couldn’t have been more than a couple of unmanned flights. But, yes, they did. There was a design change.

[Assistant] Then as you monitored the manned flights after that, did you find more and more, [or] you were pretty set and ready to go for the lunar landing?

[User] No. The lunar vehicle, I don’t remember any changes that we made in our area. In fact, we didn’t make any changes in the Earth orbit vehicles, either, that I can recall. But they did have to limp along, because the radiator wasn’t very good. They did have the better flash evaporator by then.\n\n But the systems, they were tested well and designed well, and they worked well. That was our job. Our job was if the contractor does it right, then that’s good, and if the contractor doesn’t do it right, then it’s our responsibility to tell somebody and get it fixed. And that’s what we did. If it ever didn’t work, they came to us and said, “Why didn’t it work?”\n\n We couldn’t say, “It’s not our fault. They did it.” That didn’t work. It was our design. We had to own the design. That’s a phrase I use these days. I never used that phrase then, but we owned the design. It didn’t matter who invented it, but by the time it was certified on the vehicle, we owned it. We’re the ones that said, “It will work. It’s been tested adequately, designed adequately. It will work.” Therefore, on those things that we didn’t believe that, then we had an obligation to get to the project manager early and say, “You’ve got a problem here. You have to do something.”

[Assistant] You talked about your area doing integration. How was it set up that you did integration with the rest of the areas, so that everything met the schedule to get to the Moon by the end of the decade?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Several times we had some findings. For example, the cold environment was really too cold for the Shuttle glove. I went through a lot of work to try to develop a system where we keep their hands warm. The early Shuttle flights, the hands of the crew got really cold, and when they’re cold, of course, they don’t do their job very well, and also it’s very uncomfortable. It’s all bad. There was a lot of work done there.\n\n As far as the design is concerned, I think that the design involved a lot. We would have areas that would chafe the crewmen, and we’d have to repair or make mods to make it more friendly, anthropomorphically friendly. We’ve had fogging that we had to take care of in the visors. A lot of small findings. I can’t recall anything specific.\n\n I guess the display on the chest, the Shuttle suit has a display unit on the chest; of course, the Apollo unit did, too. It’s thermally sensitive. I think it would get too hot, and you couldn’t read it. It would fade the display out, or the display would go out. So there have been those kinds of things. The cooling control, I think, was too gross. It needed to be finer so they could adjust it better to stay comfortable.\n\n Again, I’m really not the right person to talk to. Did you talk to Jim [James W.] McBarron [II]?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He’s the right person to talk to for that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Okay. All right. Well, we’re getting close to the time to stop.

[User] Yes, it looks like we are.

[Assistant] This may be a good time, and when we come back, we can pick up with Apollo-Soyuz and Skylab and go from there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s the right person to talk to for that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Okay. All right. Well, we’re getting close to the time to stop.

[User] Yes, it looks like we are.

[Assistant] This may be a good time, and when we come back, we can pick up with Apollo-Soyuz and Skylab and go from there.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] All right. Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These are all mine. I’ve taken photographs my entire life, since I was a boy. That’s the good news. The bad news is I have kept almost no records, but I have both the films and the photographs, and I will methodically start to go through those. There may well be some that would be of interest to your archives.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] You know, looking several years in the future—which I would be more than happy to give to you if they show up.

[Assistant] Great. Well, I’ll give you that information. I know that the archivist right now is looking for personal effects.

[User] Right. Well, I definitely have a lot from these survival schools, and they’re quite fun photos.

[Assistant] Yes, that sounds like fun. I wanted to ask you next about your book, Entering Space. Why did you decide to write that book, and what was the reception of the book?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I did. I have very little recollection of—well, my problem, Jennifer, I served on a Don [Donald P.] Hearth Committee, and then I served on an Augustine Committee, and their charter was virtually the same. In my mind the memories are jumbled. Now, the Don Hearth Committee had been chartered by Jim Fletcher, and it was to assume that we have a working Space Shuttle in the late 1970s. What should we use the Space Shuttle for, and what other big pieces of equipment do we need to augment it? In that, Max Faget, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin, and myself were representatives on that. That was an all-NASA committee from the Manned Spacecraft Center. We were to sort of deal with the human aspects of spaceflight.\n\n At one point we came up with our recommendation, which Joe Kerwin and I wrote, and Max agreed to. It was a little bit irreverent, but the assumption was we now have a Space Shuttle going to and from, and the way we summarized ours was, “After serious thought, our study group will thus advise our nation. We’ve built a railroad into space, and now we need a station.” [Laughs] Well, I’ve come to regret that advice, because I’m not a fan of the Station, and we no longer have a railroad into space, which is still another problem.\n\n The Augustine group, it sat in what year and reported out in what year?

[Assistant] Nineteen ninety, you were selected.

[User] And I was no longer a NASA person when I sat on that group. I was Space Industries. Tell me one or two of the other members of that group. They were non-NASA people, is that correct?

[Assistant] They were. I don’t have that with me.

[User] Or were they all NASA people? Norm [Norman R. Augustine] was not a NASA person.

[Assistant] Norm Augustine? I don’t believe so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are you still recording okay, can you tell?

[Assistant] I am, yes. We probably have about another twenty minutes. I wanted to ask you about the Hubble Space Telescope EVA [Extravehicular Activity] assessment that you participated in, and my notes indicate that you wanted to talk about a Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin conversation.

[User] Ah, I did.

[Assistant] Sometime back you told me this.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] This was in—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Okay, there were. Okay, there may well have been. But they were equally good spacewalkers, so there was not a rookie spacewalker. And they said, “Oh, that’s interesting,” and they did it. And get them assigned right now such they can get a lot of work in the WETF [Weightless Environment Test Facility]. Somewhat to my surprise, those selections were made about a couple of weeks after I sent the letter. Story later said thank you to me.\n\n I said, “Story, I didn’t cite you by name.” But, of course, you’ve interviewed Story, I’m sure.

[Assistant] We haven’t, actually. He’s on the list.

[User] Do you know him at all?

[Assistant] I don’t, but I’ve heard he’s quite a character.

[User] When the Lord made Story, he threw the mold away. No doubt. No doubt. He’s as unique an individual—I mean, every individual is unique, but Story sets a new record for uniqueness, in large part, Jennifer, because of the enormous obstacles he overcame as a young man growing up. He came from quite a bizarre, dysfunctional, and I think maybe even an abusive family, and he himself was just an accident waiting to happen growing up. Somehow he got through it all and became an astronaut, and he’s among the most of the flown astronauts, he and Franklin [R. Chang-Diaz] and I’m not sure who else. Oh, you have to get Story. But pack your lunch; it’s going to be an all-day journey.

[Assistant]
All right. Let me change the tape.\n\n [Tape change]

I wanted to ask you about your role as an astronaut advisor on two films, Mission to Mars and Armageddon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My wife was—I didn’t have any kids at the time, and she was happy, real happy, thought it was a neat thing.

[Assistant] Was your father still alive at that time?

[User] Yes, my parents are still alive now. He’s now ninety, which is a good thing. I mean, it’s wonderful that he has lived to have seen all this happen. Some people, like another one of my class members, his father passed away before his first Shuttle flight. I always thought what a shame, at least his father didn’t get to see any of that. But, no, my parents have lived right on through all this.

[Assistant] Were they excited when they heard the news?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. Of course, I’m from a small town. So that’s a bigger deal, I think, in a small town than if you’re from Chicago or somewhere.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about your training and your assignments when you first came down to the [NASA Lyndon B. Johnson] Space Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we tested them in the simulator. We didn’t actually design the flight test maneuvers. The engineers would do that, and then we’d fly them in the simulator. Most of them are automatic. You turn them on, and the computer does some—others are manual, and the manuals, you say, “Well, is this practical for this point in the entry?” and everything like that. So you’re always looking at it from a crew member standpoint. “What’s the workload like? Does this work out okay? Is there a better way to do it?” That kind of thing.

[Assistant] One of your duties on STS-2 was to act as a CapCom [Capsule Communicator], and you were actually the backup entry CapCom. Can you tell us about your duties there?

[User] I just was sitting next to Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck, who was the entry CapCom. I was trying to think of who—we had it different in those days. Nowadays there is a flight control team that works both ascent and entry, and then you have your orbit teams. Then, they had a separate team for ascent, a separate team for entry, and a separate team for orbit. So I was on the entry team with Rick. I don’t know if I ever really even talked on the radio to the Shuttle. I think I just rode sidesaddle with him, was learning from him on that one and assisting him. So that then on the third flight I did it; I was the CapCom. And I only did it for one flight. Nowadays these guys go over for assignment and the Shuttle flies often enough that they’ll do several flights while they’re working over there a couple years. I wound up being there just for two flights, but there was a longer time between flights then. Really, I don’t remember much about STS-2 except that I was kind of Rick’s assistant and learning from him. It was like OJT [On-the-Job Training].

[Assistant] Okay. What about STS-3? There actually was a landing made at White Sands.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is that something that you simulated as a CapCom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but it was our fault. But had we done that in the simulator, we probably would have seen that, would have noticed. Even though you don’t have as good a visual scene as the real world, we would have noticed which way it rolled, and it was wrong. So it was a good lesson learned, no matter how simple it is, to go prove it out in the simulator and make sure.

[Assistant] You also received a Defense Superior Service Medal for the first RMS [Remote Manipulator System]-controlled deployment of the SPARTAN vehicle. Can you talk about that? Did you actually train with the RMS before the mission?

[User] No. I don’t know about that, because I think that must have been a generic award for the whole crew. Because I’ll be honest with you, I mean, John Fabian operated the arm. I did not. I wasn’t a trained arm operator. My duties on that flight were MS-2, and I had some experiments, and I was the photo TV person. I did a lot of photo documentation, which I was proud of, because some of it came out pretty good. I still see some of the footage that I took on some ads around here. But to be honest with you, I did not operate the arm. I did not fly the Shuttle for the rendezvous. I assisted, but Dan flew. Dan did all that, so I think that’s part of a group generic award.

[Assistant] Sometimes we see that and it doesn’t turn out to be correct. All right.\n\n Why don’t you tell us about the crew and the crew’s relationship during this mission.

[User] The first one?

[Assistant] During your first mission, during 51-G.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I don’t know about that, because I think that must have been a generic award for the whole crew. Because I’ll be honest with you, I mean, John Fabian operated the arm. I did not. I wasn’t a trained arm operator. My duties on that flight were MS-2, and I had some experiments, and I was the photo TV person. I did a lot of photo documentation, which I was proud of, because some of it came out pretty good. I still see some of the footage that I took on some ads around here. But to be honest with you, I did not operate the arm. I did not fly the Shuttle for the rendezvous. I assisted, but Dan flew. Dan did all that, so I think that’s part of a group generic award.

[Assistant] Sometimes we see that and it doesn’t turn out to be correct. All right.\n\n Why don’t you tell us about the crew and the crew’s relationship during this mission.

[User] The first one?

[Assistant] During your first mission, during 51-G.

[User] Good. I mean, Dan’s a great commander. He later was the chief astronaut. This was the first flight of all crew members from my group, my astronaut group, because Dan, J.O., Shannon, John, and myself were all in the same 1978 class. Then the two payload specialists, of course, but they were not—so it was the first all-’78 group. So we all knew each other pretty well. Dan’s a great guy. J. O.’s funny, good, a lot of fun to fly with. Shannon is just great. I mean, that was her first flight, my first flight. She went on to fly a lot, of course. Have you interviewed her?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t. She’s on the list, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first one?

[Assistant] During your first mission, during 51-G.

[User] Good. I mean, Dan’s a great commander. He later was the chief astronaut. This was the first flight of all crew members from my group, my astronaut group, because Dan, J.O., Shannon, John, and myself were all in the same 1978 class. Then the two payload specialists, of course, but they were not—so it was the first all-’78 group. So we all knew each other pretty well. Dan’s a great guy. J. O.’s funny, good, a lot of fun to fly with. Shannon is just great. I mean, that was her first flight, my first flight. She went on to fly a lot, of course. Have you interviewed her?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t. She’s on the list, though.

[User] You need to get her. But she’s just well adapted to space flight in every respect. She’s just really good at it and a pleasure to fly with. John’s a lot of fun. John was a real kick to fly with. So we all got along well. And Patrick and Sultan were fine, too. There were no particular problems with that crew, from my standpoint.

[Assistant] When you came back, were you actually able to go with the crew to France and to Saudi Arabia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good. I mean, Dan’s a great commander. He later was the chief astronaut. This was the first flight of all crew members from my group, my astronaut group, because Dan, J.O., Shannon, John, and myself were all in the same 1978 class. Then the two payload specialists, of course, but they were not—so it was the first all-’78 group. So we all knew each other pretty well. Dan’s a great guy. J. O.’s funny, good, a lot of fun to fly with. Shannon is just great. I mean, that was her first flight, my first flight. She went on to fly a lot, of course. Have you interviewed her?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t. She’s on the list, though.

[User] You need to get her. But she’s just well adapted to space flight in every respect. She’s just really good at it and a pleasure to fly with. John’s a lot of fun. John was a real kick to fly with. So we all got along well. And Patrick and Sultan were fine, too. There were no particular problems with that crew, from my standpoint.

[Assistant] When you came back, were you actually able to go with the crew to France and to Saudi Arabia?

[User] Saudi, but not France. They went to France before my second flight, and I couldn’t go with them to France. So everybody but me went to France, and then to Saudi, we all went because that was in December of that year, and that was shortly after. My second flight was in October, November, late October, early November. And December we went to Saudi Arabia. So it was quite a year. Nineteen eight-five was a benchmark year. I’ve never had a year before or since like that one. But the trip to Saudi Arabia to me, anyways, was more out of this world than going into orbit. Really, it was quite a trip.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that PR trip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I’d like to move on and talk about\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Where were you when you found out about the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident?

[User] Where was I? I was watching the launch over here in Building 4. I had flown in November and had gone to Saudi Arabia in that December, and then we had a PR trip to Germany in January right after Christmas, so we’d just got back from that trip. We were probably a week back from that trip.\n\n Ironically, I remember one of the questions one of the students asked that we had met, we were talking at a university over in Munich, I think it was. Said, “What if one of the solid rocket boosters failed?”\n\n Hank said, “Well, it would be really bad.” So a few days later it happened.\n\n So I was just watching it on TV.

[Assistant] Were you watching it in your office or with a group of—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Where were you when you found out about the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident?

[User] Where was I? I was watching the launch over here in Building 4. I had flown in November and had gone to Saudi Arabia in that December, and then we had a PR trip to Germany in January right after Christmas, so we’d just got back from that trip. We were probably a week back from that trip.\n\n Ironically, I remember one of the questions one of the students asked that we had met, we were talking at a university over in Munich, I think it was. Said, “What if one of the solid rocket boosters failed?”\n\n Hank said, “Well, it would be really bad.” So a few days later it happened.\n\n So I was just watching it on TV.

[Assistant] Were you watching it in your office or with a group of—?

[User] No, I was down in a conference room. I was sitting—I even remember who I was sitting beside when that happened, but it was just—we were all watching it, and said—you don’t want to believe it. “This isn’t right.” We all knew it was bad when we saw it, but you just don’t want to believe it.

[Assistant] Did you have any duties immediately after the—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where was I? I was watching the launch over here in Building 4. I had flown in November and had gone to Saudi Arabia in that December, and then we had a PR trip to Germany in January right after Christmas, so we’d just got back from that trip. We were probably a week back from that trip.\n\n Ironically, I remember one of the questions one of the students asked that we had met, we were talking at a university over in Munich, I think it was. Said, “What if one of the solid rocket boosters failed?”\n\n Hank said, “Well, it would be really bad.” So a few days later it happened.\n\n So I was just watching it on TV.

[Assistant] Were you watching it in your office or with a group of—?

[User] No, I was down in a conference room. I was sitting—I even remember who I was sitting beside when that happened, but it was just—we were all watching it, and said—you don’t want to believe it. “This isn’t right.” We all knew it was bad when we saw it, but you just don’t want to believe it.

[Assistant] Did you have any duties immediately after the—?

[User] Yes, right after that we had a—Paul [J.] Weitz was the Deputy Chief of the Astronaut Office, called everybody in. I forget what he said, but then Overmyer, Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer was assigned to go to Florida right away and me with him. I don’t know if anybody else went down, but I jumped in his back seat in a T-38, and in a couple of hours we went to Florida. The families were still down there. When we got down there, the families were still in crew quarters, at least some of them. June Scobee was there, others. So it was bad.

[Assistant] What did you do while you were in Florida? Did you work with the crew families?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was down in a conference room. I was sitting—I even remember who I was sitting beside when that happened, but it was just—we were all watching it, and said—you don’t want to believe it. “This isn’t right.” We all knew it was bad when we saw it, but you just don’t want to believe it.

[Assistant] Did you have any duties immediately after the—?

[User] Yes, right after that we had a—Paul [J.] Weitz was the Deputy Chief of the Astronaut Office, called everybody in. I forget what he said, but then Overmyer, Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer was assigned to go to Florida right away and me with him. I don’t know if anybody else went down, but I jumped in his back seat in a T-38, and in a couple of hours we went to Florida. The families were still down there. When we got down there, the families were still in crew quarters, at least some of them. June Scobee was there, others. So it was bad.

[Assistant] What did you do while you were in Florida? Did you work with the crew families?

[User] No, they all left. They left later that day, but we quickly got organized and had some meetings about, “What are we going to do?” And there were several immediate tasks like retrieval of debris and cataloging it, things like that. So I got assigned to follow the retrieval of the debris. I mean, the Navy was doing that, but I mean, so I found myself down at the docks a lot, Port Canaveral, where they were bringing pieces in, and then they were getting them arranged in a big warehouse up there. I did that for a few weeks, I guess. I don’t know. Because I was even down at Florida when they had the big ceremony back in Houston when President [Ronald] Reagan—I wasn’t here. I was in Florida then. So it was a grim time.

[Assistant] It must have been difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right after that we had a—Paul [J.] Weitz was the Deputy Chief of the Astronaut Office, called everybody in. I forget what he said, but then Overmyer, Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer was assigned to go to Florida right away and me with him. I don’t know if anybody else went down, but I jumped in his back seat in a T-38, and in a couple of hours we went to Florida. The families were still down there. When we got down there, the families were still in crew quarters, at least some of them. June Scobee was there, others. So it was bad.

[Assistant] What did you do while you were in Florida? Did you work with the crew families?

[User] No, they all left. They left later that day, but we quickly got organized and had some meetings about, “What are we going to do?” And there were several immediate tasks like retrieval of debris and cataloging it, things like that. So I got assigned to follow the retrieval of the debris. I mean, the Navy was doing that, but I mean, so I found myself down at the docks a lot, Port Canaveral, where they were bringing pieces in, and then they were getting them arranged in a big warehouse up there. I did that for a few weeks, I guess. I don’t know. Because I was even down at Florida when they had the big ceremony back in Houston when President [Ronald] Reagan—I wasn’t here. I was in Florida then. So it was a grim time.

[Assistant] It must have been difficult.

[User] Yes. Yes, it was. So I stayed with that for a while, then came back. Somewhere, I can’t remember exactly when, but I got into the crew escape thing shortly after that.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about that. You actually represented the Astronaut Office in the creation of the crew escape system. What role did you have in deciding on the escape pole system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Not just me. There were other studies done. Even early on after\n\n Challenger\n\n we contracted with the Navy to do some studies of how you would eject up to, I think, seven people or so out of the Shuttle. It’s hard, though. Ejection seats aren’t that small, and to get six or seven of those in the Shuttle and then figure a way to eject them out of the Shuttle and then you’ve got to go live in it. It’s not like an airplane where you just sit in your seat for the whole flight. You’re going to live in this place after you get on orbit and you’ve got to do work up there. So the seats have to be moved somehow to make room for that. It’s easy to say, “I want to do this,” but then when you start to getting down to the practicality of how you actually use this vehicle and what you do with it, it’s hard. It’s real hard. Not an easy solution.

[Assistant] This looks like it would be a good time for us to stop.

[User] Okay.\n\n [Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] So we’re back with Steve Nagel, and I’d like to talk to you about STS-37. That was actually the first mission that you commanded.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about your duties as commander. How did they differ from being a mission specialist or a pilot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.\n\n [Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] So we’re back with Steve Nagel, and I’d like to talk to you about STS-37. That was actually the first mission that you commanded.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about your duties as commander. How did they differ from being a mission specialist or a pilot?

[User] You’re responsible. [Laughs] If it goes well, you take the pats on the back. If it goes poorly, you take the blame. But really, I mean, of course the commander is the one that lands the airplane, traditionally, but other than that, you’re a manager of a small group of people who are highly motivated and focused, and it’s really with most, if not all, these groups is a pretty easy job, because all you’ve got to do is point them in the right direction, and they want to do the right thing.\n\n You wind up having to interface a lot with all the other communities like the flight directors, to work out the issues before the mission, and then get to go execute it. But it’s really basically what all the pilots want to do anyway, is get to be a commander of one of these missions. It was a very rewarding experience. I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunity to select your crew members?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about your duties as commander. How did they differ from being a mission specialist or a pilot?

[User] You’re responsible. [Laughs] If it goes well, you take the pats on the back. If it goes poorly, you take the blame. But really, I mean, of course the commander is the one that lands the airplane, traditionally, but other than that, you’re a manager of a small group of people who are highly motivated and focused, and it’s really with most, if not all, these groups is a pretty easy job, because all you’ve got to do is point them in the right direction, and they want to do the right thing.\n\n You wind up having to interface a lot with all the other communities like the flight directors, to work out the issues before the mission, and then get to go execute it. But it’s really basically what all the pilots want to do anyway, is get to be a commander of one of these missions. It was a very rewarding experience. I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunity to select your crew members?

[User] No. That’s interesting. Not a bit. Just walked over there with them that day, and here they are. So I guess if you don’t like who you’re paired up with, it’s too late then. But it was never a problem for me.\n\n And on the flip side of the coin, they gave me no choice or input in the selection of the crew. On the other hand, when we decided who did what on the crew, especially with regard to EVA, it was totally up to me. Nobody really gave me any guidance on that at all. It was whoever I wanted to pick. Obviously, they wouldn’t let you pick the pilot, because the pilots don’t do the EVAs, but among the mission specialists. So that was kind of interesting to me.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us about how you selected these individuals to serve in the various positions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a cheap lesson, yes. I pass it on when I’m instructing with the STA. I can set up an approach that looks similar to that, low energy, and say, “If you ever get here, don’t mess around. Get back on the glide path right away.” I was trying to be real smooth with it and not fully complying with the guidance command, just partway to be smooth and get it back, and that wasn’t the answer that day.

[Assistant] It’s great that you’re an instructor now, and you can offer that advice.

[User] “Here’s something I did that you shouldn’t do.”

[Assistant] In ’91, you also became the Acting Chief of the Astronaut Office.

[User] For a year or so, I did, yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us about your duties as acting chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Here’s something I did that you shouldn’t do.”

[Assistant] In ’91, you also became the Acting Chief of the Astronaut Office.

[User] For a year or so, I did, yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us about your duties as acting chief?

[User] I did everything—you’re running a big office. Not as big as this now. But lots of issues, lots of things to work. The flights. I did everything but the crew assignments.\n\n Dan Brandenstein was the chief, and he retained that responsibility. He didn’t parcel that out to me. So I didn’t have anything to do with any crew assignments during that period, but I did the rest, and it was real busy. It was a busy, hard, responsible job, and I think it’s a lot busier now. It’s a lot more complicated with two programs, the Space Station and the Shuttle, and a lot bigger office than it was. It was probably, I don’t know, eighty or ninety astronauts then. Now it’s what, 140, 150. I’m not sure.\n\n But it was very busy, I remember, because I got—let’s see, I started doing that in ’91, like you said. In early ’92, I got assigned to this other Spacelab flight, the German Spacelab flight, and I trained for that, and somewhere in the summer or fall of ’92, I gave up the—I was within six months of this other flight when I gave up the chief job, and my workload dropped to a fraction of what it was. It was real easy to be a commander of flight compared to running the Astronaut Office. It really was.

[Assistant] Were there any major concerns that you had to deal with or certain issues that the astronauts often came to you about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my mind, I think the crew escape system, more so than flying on the Shuttle. The flights were great, but in a way, I got more personal satisfaction out of having worked on something that I think did some good like that, than even the flights. Not that I want to trade the flights, because that’s why I came here, but that was the high point for me.\n\n And, I’ve talked to a lot of these people that worked on this project, that crew escape project, not just in NASA, but some in NASA, even Bill Chandler, the manager, the chief Navy jumper, that did the jump on the pole. They said this was the high point of their career. It was the best thing they ever did.

[Assistant] Was it really.

[User] Yes, because it was so important to everybody. I mean, the Shuttle’s grounded, and we’re doing something that’s going to get it flying again. I think everybody, almost no matter what they worked on through that time period, had a similar feeling. Really, it must have been kind of like people felt going to the Moon, a little bit. I don’t want to compare it exactly, but that kind of a feeling.\n\n I had that overall feeling working on the Shuttle Program, anyway, or in Station Program no matter what capacity, even in what I’m doing now. You feel like you’re a part of something that’s bigger than you, that’s worth doing, which is really great. Not everybody gets that opportunity to work on something like we do here. But I really had that feeling on the crew escape project for that year or two.

[Assistant] That’s a really interesting perspective.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask one more question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, because it was so important to everybody. I mean, the Shuttle’s grounded, and we’re doing something that’s going to get it flying again. I think everybody, almost no matter what they worked on through that time period, had a similar feeling. Really, it must have been kind of like people felt going to the Moon, a little bit. I don’t want to compare it exactly, but that kind of a feeling.\n\n I had that overall feeling working on the Shuttle Program, anyway, or in Station Program no matter what capacity, even in what I’m doing now. You feel like you’re a part of something that’s bigger than you, that’s worth doing, which is really great. Not everybody gets that opportunity to work on something like we do here. But I really had that feeling on the crew escape project for that year or two.

[Assistant] That’s a really interesting perspective.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask one more question.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You’re actually married to an astronaut now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask one more question.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You’re actually married to an astronaut now.

[User] I am. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Linda Godwin. I’m wondering, how has that impacted your family life? Had you already retired from the astronaut corps when you married Linda?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You’re actually married to an astronaut now.

[User] I am. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Linda Godwin. I’m wondering, how has that impacted your family life? Had you already retired from the astronaut corps when you married Linda?

[User] Yes. Yes, so there was no conflict of interest there, because she would’ve been my boss, because she was the Deputy of the Astronaut Office by that time. So, no, I’d already left. By the time I started seeing her, courting her, I was almost out. I was within a month of being out of the Astronaut Office, then I was gone. So we were in different offices\n\n And how did it affect us? I’m not unique, but I’ve seen this program from a whole bunch of different perspectives now. I’ve flown in it. I’m now a former astronaut. I’m now a pilot for aircraft operations that supports it. And now I’m married to an astronaut, and she flew two flights while we were married. The last one, we got a little girl, so I got all this and it is very stressful on the families when these flights go. It really is. And I always knew that, but, I mean, you’ve got to be a family member sitting up there or standing up on the roof of the Launch Control Center watching your spouse go fly. You know something could go wrong. It’s not likely, but it could. So I’ve got a lot higher respect for the families, I always did, that stand by their husband or wife when they’re doing this. Now she’s not going to go fly anymore. She’s publicly said that.

[Assistant] Oh, has she?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For which I am glad. I’m glad she got to do it, but in a way I’m glad that that part’s behind us. But she had really a great career. I mean, she flew on the mission we were on with the GRO, and then she got to do a radar-mapping mission with the Shuttle, which was really neat. Then she went to the Mir and did a spacewalk on it, and then she went to the Space Station and did a spacewalk on it.\n\n I told her, in the Shuttle Program anyway, how could you have a more varied and good career? I mean, there’s nothing that she didn’t do, as far as what a mission specialist would want to do in this whole program. But it was great. It was a great run for her, and she’s happy about that, too.

[Assistant] That’s great. Great. I’m glad to hear that. Sounds like you’re happy.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I would like to ask Rebecca and Sandra if they have any questions.

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant]
Okay. Rebecca?

I’ve got a couple. While you were Chief of the Astronaut Office, you mentioned that several of the astronauts or some astronauts would come in and talk to you about different issues, one of them being the pressure suits. Since you’ve been on both sides of that issue, you flew before\n\n Challenger\n\n and after\n\n Challenger\n\n , could you spend a few minutes sharing with us the pros and cons, from your perspective, as well as from the astronauts, of wearing the two different suits, and what do you feel the benefits are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it did. Not that you had to work in SAIL to be adequately trained to fly, but we got to know the software and the associated avionics real well. The first flight we had an MDM, Multiplexer/Demultiplexer problem. In real life, the signatures are never the same as what you get in the simulator, but it probably helped me just in a broad sense, but it wasn’t necessary for being adequately trained to go fly.

[Assistant] And sort of a follow onto Rebecca’s, when you entered with the ’78 class and now dealing with the astronaut candidates and astronauts now, do you see any differences other than being younger?

[User] Yeah, I got older, and they all got younger.

[Assistant] Any differences in the people that are choosing to be astronauts as far as their training or the way they tailor their education or anything of that sort?

[User] I’m thinking here. Not really. No, I don’t think so. I think, my group, the pilots, a lot of them had the Vietnam experience because that’s the age we were. These folks, a lot of them had the Gulf War experience, some of them, anyway, some got some combat experience. They’re very sharp. They’re very smart. The others, no, I think the background and the education, the experience of the groups are fairly similar. They’re just younger. [Laughs]

[Assistant]
That’s all. Thanks.

Is there anything else you’d like to talk about that we’ve perhaps missed?