[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wired with, you know. Now, those are stories that, are they apocryphal or not? I don't know. He wrote that this happened and it happened to him. And that was what made me all the more determined not to ever put myself in a situation where I would be faced with having to shoot a six year old boy or perhaps get myself blown up as well. It just made no sense to me.

[Assistant] So you report to Philadelphia.

[User] I go to Philadelphia.

[Assistant] How many were in your group?

[User] 35 people. We had a group of 35.

[Assistant] And how would you describe them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I go to Philadelphia.

[Assistant] How many were in your group?

[User] 35 people. We had a group of 35.

[Assistant] And how would you describe them?

[User] They were very, they were an interesting group of people. There was probably half and half men and women. And I remember one was a philosophy major. Most of them were young. No, I don't think, I don't think anybody was over 25, 28 at that time.

[Assistant] And at this time you were like, what, 21?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 35 people. We had a group of 35.

[Assistant] And how would you describe them?

[User] They were very, they were an interesting group of people. There was probably half and half men and women. And I remember one was a philosophy major. Most of them were young. No, I don't think, I don't think anybody was over 25, 28 at that time.

[Assistant] And at this time you were like, what, 21?

[User] I was probably 21 or so, yeah. And the.

[Assistant] Had you been told what the project was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were very, they were an interesting group of people. There was probably half and half men and women. And I remember one was a philosophy major. Most of them were young. No, I don't think, I don't think anybody was over 25, 28 at that time.

[Assistant] And at this time you were like, what, 21?

[User] I was probably 21 or so, yeah. And the.

[Assistant] Had you been told what the project was?

[User] No. No, no. We weren't told anything. It was just that we were going there and whatever you qualified for. I mean, what did I qualify for? I was an English major and I wrote. So I figured it was maybe something along the lines of teaching, is what I assumed. But I wasn't told that. I mean, I didn't assume that I was going to be put into agricultural engineering or anything because I didn't have any qualifications. But I would have done anything. I would have been digging ditches if they wanted to do it.

[Assistant] And others in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] There was language training. There must have been area studies as well.

[User] A little bit, it was more.

[Assistant] How did they teach you about Ghana?

[User] Well, we learned about Ghana, yes. But, you know, also, there was also a lot of dope smoking. You know, I don't know if anybody wants to talk about this or not, but I mean, this guy Lee was the one, the guy I was sitting next to. And he went into the village and somehow he found the marijuana. And marijuana was very strong in Ghana. And he came back. You know, none of us, I don't think, would have dared to have gotten it, tried it, or any of that, because, you know, who wants to get kicked out of this place, you know? But Lee just went right for it. And he came back. And I remember, you know, he got almost everybody stoned and it's just like, whoa, all of a sudden. And that, you know, that was very mind blowing because it was like, oh, suddenly we're having a different kind of experience, you know? It's like, well, you know, we're walking around Ghana with our eyes open. We're in foreign country and learning, you know, and experiencing things in a very psychedelic way. And so that existed, you know.

[Assistant] At this point, you were pretty comfortable that you were in, that you had sort of made it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit, it was more.

[Assistant] How did they teach you about Ghana?

[User] Well, we learned about Ghana, yes. But, you know, also, there was also a lot of dope smoking. You know, I don't know if anybody wants to talk about this or not, but I mean, this guy Lee was the one, the guy I was sitting next to. And he went into the village and somehow he found the marijuana. And marijuana was very strong in Ghana. And he came back. You know, none of us, I don't think, would have dared to have gotten it, tried it, or any of that, because, you know, who wants to get kicked out of this place, you know? But Lee just went right for it. And he came back. And I remember, you know, he got almost everybody stoned and it's just like, whoa, all of a sudden. And that, you know, that was very mind blowing because it was like, oh, suddenly we're having a different kind of experience, you know? It's like, well, you know, we're walking around Ghana with our eyes open. We're in foreign country and learning, you know, and experiencing things in a very psychedelic way. And so that existed, you know.

[Assistant] At this point, you were pretty comfortable that you were in, that you had sort of made it?

[User] Well, we didn't know that because, you know, we did know that psychologist was there and he could tell us, you know, you don't fit, you know, I mean, anything could happen. And I.

[Assistant] Did any people disappear?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we learned about Ghana, yes. But, you know, also, there was also a lot of dope smoking. You know, I don't know if anybody wants to talk about this or not, but I mean, this guy Lee was the one, the guy I was sitting next to. And he went into the village and somehow he found the marijuana. And marijuana was very strong in Ghana. And he came back. You know, none of us, I don't think, would have dared to have gotten it, tried it, or any of that, because, you know, who wants to get kicked out of this place, you know? But Lee just went right for it. And he came back. And I remember, you know, he got almost everybody stoned and it's just like, whoa, all of a sudden. And that, you know, that was very mind blowing because it was like, oh, suddenly we're having a different kind of experience, you know? It's like, well, you know, we're walking around Ghana with our eyes open. We're in foreign country and learning, you know, and experiencing things in a very psychedelic way. And so that existed, you know.

[Assistant] At this point, you were pretty comfortable that you were in, that you had sort of made it?

[User] Well, we didn't know that because, you know, we did know that psychologist was there and he could tell us, you know, you don't fit, you know, I mean, anything could happen. And I.

[Assistant] Did any people disappear?

[User] No, one person dropped out. He didn't like it. And I remember, as a matter of fact, he might have been my roommate. I'm not sure. But I think there was one that, you know, cracked up.

[Assistant] But that was known, it was a middle of the night disappearance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anti-malarial, yes. And we had to have the gamma globulin shots, you know, all that stuff which was pretty annoying. I mean, it was what, it was up to your weight. So if you weighed 100 pounds, it was 5 cc's, 150 pounds, seven and a half cc's or whatever. And that was a long, a long shot. A lot of liquid went into you, you know.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were volunteers who had served in Ghana before you at training?

[User] Yes. Yes, there were. I remember Charlotte MacPherson was one of our trainers, you know, and she had been there the year before. So she was one, she had been there one year, so she had one more year to go. So we had a few of those and, you know, we got to know them. And they also were judging us. I mean, everybody was judging you, but you didn't know what that meant. But you just knew that you were being looked at and watched and analyzed.

[Assistant] Was there during the six weeks, was there any kind of screening or indication of where you were going to be assigned?

[User] No, that we had no idea.

[Assistant] It was still up in the air?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we went to these to these things.

[Assistant] How many were in each?

[User] There were 35 of us total. So we would be about six in each, six or seven in each one.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] No, you know, actually in Mampong, I don't even remember who else was there besides myself. I don't remember ever meeting with anybody while I was there, so I think I might have been alone in that place. So maybe they divided us up into more areas, you know.

[Assistant] Did language instructors go out to the villages with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody. The Peace Corps. I didn't get any money out of anybody else. And the Peace Corps, I think I was getting $70 a month, I think is what it came to. And it was the same amount of money that everybody got. And I remember going to the Peace Corps office every six months saying I wanted, I thought I should get more money, me and Mark, who was also, because we were in Accra. I said, you know, we can't afford, we can't go out. You know, there's not enough, we're not getting enough money to even take advantage of being where we are. And they agreed with that. So I think they may have given me 20 more bucks a month, you know, so I could at least go to a movie or go to a, you know, go out to eat or something.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Right.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you reconvene at the end of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you reconvene at the end of that?

[User] Yes. We came back to Winneba afterwards and I think we spent a couple of months, maybe a month there, maybe one more last month. So it wasn't like we went to an assignment right away. It was like we came back. Had more language training. And by now everybody was exchanging ideas and, you know, and all that stuff. And so now was getting a little exciting because we all were getting a sense of direction. I was going to stay in Accra, I mean.

[Assistant] When you went back you knew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you reconvene at the end of that?

[User] Yes. We came back to Winneba afterwards and I think we spent a couple of months, maybe a month there, maybe one more last month. So it wasn't like we went to an assignment right away. It was like we came back. Had more language training. And by now everybody was exchanging ideas and, you know, and all that stuff. And so now was getting a little exciting because we all were getting a sense of direction. I was going to stay in Accra, I mean.

[Assistant] When you went back you knew?

[User] Yeah. By the time I went back, I knew that my assignment was the city and there was only one other volunteer, Mark Brown, who lives out here now. I see him a lot and he's one of my best friends. But he also was put into a school in Accra.

[Assistant] And what was happening with the rest of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We came back to Winneba afterwards and I think we spent a couple of months, maybe a month there, maybe one more last month. So it wasn't like we went to an assignment right away. It was like we came back. Had more language training. And by now everybody was exchanging ideas and, you know, and all that stuff. And so now was getting a little exciting because we all were getting a sense of direction. I was going to stay in Accra, I mean.

[Assistant] When you went back you knew?

[User] Yeah. By the time I went back, I knew that my assignment was the city and there was only one other volunteer, Mark Brown, who lives out here now. I see him a lot and he's one of my best friends. But he also was put into a school in Accra.

[Assistant] And what was happening with the rest of the group?

[User] Everybody was getting ready to go off in the other direction. On-Offin or Kumasi or, you know, to teach. Most of them were all going to teach in different middle schools or secondary schools. Yes. Mark was at a secondary school. He was teaching like 10th grade math. I had the only unusual assignment that I remember. I mean, everything else was teaching, you know, in secondary schools.

[Assistant] Were most of the people math science teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. By the time I went back, I knew that my assignment was the city and there was only one other volunteer, Mark Brown, who lives out here now. I see him a lot and he's one of my best friends. But he also was put into a school in Accra.

[Assistant] And what was happening with the rest of the group?

[User] Everybody was getting ready to go off in the other direction. On-Offin or Kumasi or, you know, to teach. Most of them were all going to teach in different middle schools or secondary schools. Yes. Mark was at a secondary school. He was teaching like 10th grade math. I had the only unusual assignment that I remember. I mean, everything else was teaching, you know, in secondary schools.

[Assistant] Were most of the people math science teachers?

[User] Yes, math and science. Yeah. And history a little bit. I mean, one was in history, I remember that. Yeah. And I guess some were English, but not too many now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember how things played out as [inaudible] final selection?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody was getting ready to go off in the other direction. On-Offin or Kumasi or, you know, to teach. Most of them were all going to teach in different middle schools or secondary schools. Yes. Mark was at a secondary school. He was teaching like 10th grade math. I had the only unusual assignment that I remember. I mean, everything else was teaching, you know, in secondary schools.

[Assistant] Were most of the people math science teachers?

[User] Yes, math and science. Yeah. And history a little bit. I mean, one was in history, I remember that. Yeah. And I guess some were English, but not too many now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember how things played out as [inaudible] final selection?

[User] I think we were already selected. I never thought of it being final selection in my mind. I thought that once they said this group was going to Ghana to train, I think we were, we were selected. We may be deselected, that is, if we did something wrong. But I don't think anybody had, you know, I didn't think we were still trying out for it. I thought we, once they spent the money to send us there, we were there, you know.

[Assistant] In spite of the profiling and the psychologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, math and science. Yeah. And history a little bit. I mean, one was in history, I remember that. Yeah. And I guess some were English, but not too many now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember how things played out as [inaudible] final selection?

[User] I think we were already selected. I never thought of it being final selection in my mind. I thought that once they said this group was going to Ghana to train, I think we were, we were selected. We may be deselected, that is, if we did something wrong. But I don't think anybody had, you know, I didn't think we were still trying out for it. I thought we, once they spent the money to send us there, we were there, you know.

[Assistant] In spite of the profiling and the psychologist?

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Essentially you felt you were in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they didn't tell me I had to play any role at all. That was a, that was what I loved about the Peace Corps. I mean, that they didn't say to me, you have to do this. They'd tell me I had to be tactful. I had to be careful. Yes. But then you're on your own and, yes, so the first thing I did was tell them where I stood as far as the war in Vietnam went and whatever.

[Assistant] Do you recall the process to teach Ghanaians English?

[User]
Well, Ghanaian English is English English, you know, the British English more than the American. And that's what I was about to say. So I started teaching and I did all three courses, which is 3 hours worth of classes in about 40, 45 minutes. I'm finished, you know. And I said Shakespeare [talks very quickly]. And I talked fast because I'm from New York and I've never quite lost the New Yorkese in me. And there was blank looks, you know, I finished. I looked at my watch. Oh man, it's not even an hour. I got through it. I said, well, any questions? Nobody had any questions. I said, OK, I'll see you tomorrow. And I went into my office. I had an office they gave me. I sat there and I remember like my hands were shaking and I'm going, what the hell was that all about? I can't do this. I'm not qualified. I can't teach. I was, I had the most self-doubt that I've ever had in my life about me was at that time.

And I went home. I had a driver that used to take me, the bus would pick me up, a small little minivan or something. So it would take me to my place. And by the way, I should talk about where I lived because it was pretty interesting. And back and forth.

[Assistant] Well, let's stick on the teaching for a minute.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So did you get any kind of syllabus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe 20, 25. Maybe 25 or 30 at the most.

[Assistant] Was it a conventional classroom?

[User] Yes, it was. I remember it was a, yeah, it was kind of a conventional classroom. And there's only two classrooms.

[Assistant] [inaudible] writing instruments?

[User]
Yeah. Yeah, they would. Well, there were books that you'd tell them to bring or write or loose-leaf books or whatever that would be. And I remember, oh, here's something else I remember very quickly. The first day of class, I said to them, this is how, this is what I believe. I don't believe in grades. I said, I think we're all, I think everybody here is an adult. I said, you know, you've achieved something to get to this school. So I would think that maybe we could come to some kind of agreement where you can grade yourself. You can tell me what you believe you deserve. And we can discuss it. So other that, that's it. They went running to the director after this class complaining because they wanted grades.

And they were so used to the English system of grades that this concept that you could grade yourself was like, whoa, where am I coming from? And I got called in right away. The director said, you told them that they're going to grade themselves? I said, well, I said, look, these people have got children. You know, it's not like they're. They said, no, no, no, no. You have to grade them. I said, OK, you know. I said, fine. I said, if that's what you want, I'll do it.

[Assistant] Now the structure was? It was you and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. I remember it was a, yeah, it was kind of a conventional classroom. And there's only two classrooms.

[Assistant] [inaudible] writing instruments?

[User]
Yeah. Yeah, they would. Well, there were books that you'd tell them to bring or write or loose-leaf books or whatever that would be. And I remember, oh, here's something else I remember very quickly. The first day of class, I said to them, this is how, this is what I believe. I don't believe in grades. I said, I think we're all, I think everybody here is an adult. I said, you know, you've achieved something to get to this school. So I would think that maybe we could come to some kind of agreement where you can grade yourself. You can tell me what you believe you deserve. And we can discuss it. So other that, that's it. They went running to the director after this class complaining because they wanted grades.

And they were so used to the English system of grades that this concept that you could grade yourself was like, whoa, where am I coming from? And I got called in right away. The director said, you told them that they're going to grade themselves? I said, well, I said, look, these people have got children. You know, it's not like they're. They said, no, no, no, no. You have to grade them. I said, OK, you know. I said, fine. I said, if that's what you want, I'll do it.

[Assistant] Now the structure was? It was you and?

[User] A director, the head, yeah, the director of the program, who was.

[Assistant] Were there other Ghanaians who were teachers as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. No, no. We had to bring our own stuff. Yeah. I mean, I did bring a lot of reading to do. And I, you know, and I remember I used to read the international Newsweek or Time. Newsweek I think it was. And the, you know, I would get that and look forward to that kind of stuff, you know. And, you know, existed a lot by letters, because there was no internet, there was no computers. I had a typewriter and I wrote every day. I wrote two books while I was in Ghana. One was called Turquoise and the other was called Not with a Bang. And so, you know, so I was always writing and I loved it. So, you know, my work, I didn't work that much at the school. My hours was such that, you know, maybe I'd work. I had those three classes, so maybe it would be an hour a class. And sometimes I'd teach 2 hours in a day and then, so maybe about 2 hours a day.

So they'd come and pick me up at 9:00 in the morning. I'd teach 10:00 to 11:00, I'd have office hours for a half an hour, an hour. Anybody wanted to see me. And then I was free to go home. I would grade papers at home as much as I could at the school. So I was not at the school that much.

[Assistant] Where did your students live?

[User] All over. I had, one of those.

[Assistant] Were there dorms?

[User] No dorms, no.

[Assistant] Everybody stayed at their own house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No dorms, no.

[Assistant] Everybody stayed at their own house?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Right. Nobody lived on campus.

[Assistant] Was there any faculty room that could be a meeting site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Right. Nobody lived on campus.

[Assistant] Was there any faculty room that could be a meeting site?

[User]
Well, we had our offices. I had an office that I shared with this one guy. And there was. I remember, I just remember writing once about, you know, we had a ceremony when the director was leaving. We had the ceremony and it was so insane because everybody wanted this director out. He was terrible. And he went to the Ministry of Information and but, you know, they made such a big deal out of it, you know, and it was, it was so. And then one of the teachers, I remember seeing him talking to a tree once. And I just walked over to him. Because he had been in the, arrested under Nkrumah and he had been in jail and been beaten and tortured and all that stuff. And now he's out and he's teaching a course at the school. But his mind was a little bit warped, you know, and you sort of saw that.

I mean, I was pretty close to my students. One of the, one of my students I ended up having an affair with, but not while she was a student. You know, after she had graduated. I was close with her.

[Assistant] What did you do on weekends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, not in the very, very beginning I wasn't other than the letters to. It took me a little while to adjust to my routine. I would say the first six months it was an extremely lonely time. I think the period of adjustment was about a half a year. I had a girlfriend that, you know, that I had left, you know, and when I came here and all that and I missed her and I missed. You know, I mean, it was just that whole adjustment. And, you know, like just, you know, coming into a teaching situation that I didn't understand how to teach and, you know, and volunteers.

[Assistant] And you didn't have a life in the schools.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I mean, like a boarding school.

[User] Right, right, right. Everybody was on their own and all that stuff. So in the, it took me a while and I felt very, very alone, even though I was in the city, you know, in the city. But I felt also constrained in that city because I couldn't afford to do anything, you know, to get around, you know. But anyway.

[Assistant] Did you live close to the Peace Corps office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I mean, like a boarding school.

[User] Right, right, right. Everybody was on their own and all that stuff. So in the, it took me a while and I felt very, very alone, even though I was in the city, you know, in the city. But I felt also constrained in that city because I couldn't afford to do anything, you know, to get around, you know. But anyway.

[Assistant] Did you live close to the Peace Corps office?

[User] Within walking distance. But then again, almost anything to me. I didn't walk to the beach until I was robbed at the end, but I, the Peace Corps office was a good distance. Like it was near Ferisco, and there was a place called Talal, which was a Lebanese restaurant I remember. I used to eat at Talal and the Peace Corps office was near there. So yeah, so it would be about a 20 minute walk to the Peace Corps office, so that wasn't so bad. And a little further down, there was a department store that I very rarely went to.

[Assistant] But during, say, the first six months, did you have much contact with the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. As a matter of fact, they encouraged it. Peace Corps always, they gave you $9 a day to travel, the per diem rate if you travel. And I arranged, because I was in Accra, I arranged for the, uh, a trip to East Africa.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And I arranged with an airlines and I got a very good rate.

[Assistant] At the end of the first year?

[User] Yes, and so I had everybody, all the volunteers that I was in touch with, plus whoever else was in the volunteers. And I, you know, whatever price it was, a couple hundred bucks maybe it was, you know, but I said, you know, so I had to. I had to contact everybody in the Peace Corps, which I did through the Peace Corps office. Those are the kinds of things I would do at the Peace Corps office. And I'd say, if you all want to go, it's going to go. We're going to go to Ethiopia and Kenya and Tanzania, and then we'll fly into Ethiopia for X amount of time. Then we'll go to Kenya for X amount of time and then we'll, you know, everybody's on their own once we arrive and then we'll meet back and do it. And I think I filled the plane. I think I had over a hundred people, 120 people, that came.

[Assistant] [inaudible] picked up people from Nigeria? How did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Going into the second year and talk about what you're going to do differently or any goals for yourself?

[User] No. Well, I don't think I was setting so much goals as I was more comfortable. I understood. You know, I spent the third year there as well. So I did spend three years in Ghana. I re-upped one year.

[Assistant] And your teaching schedule was the same?

[User] It was always the same. It was always basically three courses. So I was never, it was never stressful. I was able to handle it and do my own writing. I was just, I was fascinated that I was able to, you know, I mean, I liked, I was becoming a writer so to speak. You know, I had plenty of time to do that. Um.

[Assistant] So the time that would emerge, you would do your teaching and then head back to your house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, I don't think I was setting so much goals as I was more comfortable. I understood. You know, I spent the third year there as well. So I did spend three years in Ghana. I re-upped one year.

[Assistant] And your teaching schedule was the same?

[User] It was always the same. It was always basically three courses. So I was never, it was never stressful. I was able to handle it and do my own writing. I was just, I was fascinated that I was able to, you know, I mean, I liked, I was becoming a writer so to speak. You know, I had plenty of time to do that. Um.

[Assistant] So the time that would emerge, you would do your teaching and then head back to your house.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then you spend your time there writing and I assume doing some preparation for class.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was always the same. It was always basically three courses. So I was never, it was never stressful. I was able to handle it and do my own writing. I was just, I was fascinated that I was able to, you know, I mean, I liked, I was becoming a writer so to speak. You know, I had plenty of time to do that. Um.

[Assistant] So the time that would emerge, you would do your teaching and then head back to your house.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then you spend your time there writing and I assume doing some preparation for class.

[User] Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. I would always prepare for class. I'd always, you know, I'd do that right away. I actually had read. I remember reading that William Faulkner wrote As I Lay Dying, which was his own favorite book, in six weeks. So I gave that as a challenge to myself once. So I said, I wonder if I could write a novel. I wonder how much I could write in six weeks. So I kept a little chart, you know. And so every day for six weeks I wrote. And I remember one day I wrote 14 pages. Oh, that was like, it was almost like an orgasm, you know? But in the end I wrote, um, uh, I wrote a book that was, uh, 120,000 words. You know, it was twice the size of As I Lay Dying and probably 100th of what quality was. But nonetheless, you know, it was an experience.

[Assistant] All in six weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, '70 and '71 and, well, actually, it was still in '70. It was, this was still in '70. Because what happened was in my mind, I figured I would probably end up staying. You know, when my time in Ghana was up, I would travel around and then I'd end up, would go live in Canada. I would never come back to the States if it was going to come down to that. It never did. And what happened was once the, I never heard from the draft board again and the lottery continued on or whatever, then I re- upped for the next year. And that was because I had, I really wanted to give it a lot of self-reflection. Did I join the Peace Corps just to get out of the Army or did I join the Peace Corps because I wanted to do whatever good I could or get the experience, etc.? I always believe that we got more out of it than we gave in a sense.

[Assistant] But in the third year that was still kind of an issue?

[User] No, it wasn't. No, I remember it was cleaned up because that was the reason I stayed the third year.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] The third year was my year, you know, it was my, it was like I had beat, the Army was over. It was and it was no longer a question of do I have to do that now? It was a decision of, I want to be here another year. I like this, I like my situation. I like the people. I had, I was writing something that I could continue to rewrite and edit and stuff like that.

[Assistant] Do you recall going into the Peace Corps office and saying I would like to do a third year and would they put any barriers in your way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't. No, I remember it was cleaned up because that was the reason I stayed the third year.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] The third year was my year, you know, it was my, it was like I had beat, the Army was over. It was and it was no longer a question of do I have to do that now? It was a decision of, I want to be here another year. I like this, I like my situation. I like the people. I had, I was writing something that I could continue to rewrite and edit and stuff like that.

[Assistant] Do you recall going into the Peace Corps office and saying I would like to do a third year and would they put any barriers in your way?

[User] No, no, there was never any barriers at all. I think they were happy. Because I remember they didn't have a replacement for me so easily, and then they did the next year. When I left, Mary O'Neil was a, she was a grandmother and she had written children's books. And I think I had a few of her books, Halibut, Hailstones and Halibut Bones is one of them. Nice. And I only met her at the very end. You know, she came in when I was leaving, and I think I spent a day or two giving a, you know, talking to her.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps expect you to take home leave before you did your third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For some reason when you get a letter, it was a legal thing that I had to be in the States.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] I got a telegram saying. It was signing Secretary of State Dean Rusk. You have to be in court on such and such a date in June. That was it. You know, this is why I brought that to the Peace Corps. I said, look at this. You know, I said, so they sent me back. So that's how that happened.

[Assistant] All international [inaudible].

[User] Yeah. Right. I'm sure Dean Rusk himself did not have to, did not look at that or read that, you know. But yeah.

[Assistant] So you did the third year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Thank you. Jennifer, you have something else that you had?

No, just let us know when you come down to Houston. I’d like to sit in on a class.

[User] Sure. I’d be delighted thanks.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for spending your morning with us. We really appreciate it.

[User] You’re welcome. Delighted you could come do this. I feel quite honored to be part of this, because like I tell people, my experience with NASA, I was just a dandelion in the flower bed of life. Given the short time I was there. It was really a remarkable experience.\n\n Any success that I might have had really was because of the people who were my colleagues and I worked with. We had great people there when I got there. At the same time there was the burden of the culture that some people just couldn’t shake.\n\n After some people left, I came in with what I think was a really remarkable team. Bob [D.] Cabana became my Deputy, and he had so much to do with the positive aspect of the turnaround of the attitudes there. Bob Cabana is just one of my favorite people. He’s just a super super guy. He was such a wonderful Deputy. Wonderful fellow to have there. Randy [K.] Gish became my number three and ran that thing. I’d been impressed with him when he was running contracts down there when I was a contractor. When I had the opportunity to bring him up there, he just did a remarkable job. Those are two of my favorite guys, and I just think they had so much to do with any improvement in attitude, personnel, efficiency, the way we did things, morale. Really Cabana and Gish had a lot to do with that.\n\n One thing that we didn’t talk about was Beak’s Bash.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s right, we didn’t talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used frozen food before that time.

[Assistant] Oh, you did. Oh, okay.

[User] Yes, in Apollo. That was tried in Apollo. In fact, if you see the movie Apollo 13, Jim Lovell and whoever’s playing him is knocking a hot dog that’s frozen, showing how hard it is, and he can’t even eat the thing, it was so hard. But there were breads, irradiated breads, that are still around.\n\n Helen [W.] Lane, who runs your program down there, can show you all that stuff. She’s got samples of all kinds of things, I’m sure. She just published a recent paper in Nutrition Today, which is quite good, about long-range missions; some of the summary of the things we’ve talked about, some of the new packaging. You may want to take a look at that. She has a menu, a three-day menu—a six-day menu. It talks about the Shuttle and the foods going out.

[Assistant] I’ll definitely take a look. Actually, I’m working with Helen right now on a project, so I’ll have to mention that to her.

[User] All right. Yes, give her my regards.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Did you both work together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there for one year, and I covered the early Gemini missions. I believe it was Gemini 3, 4, and 5. It was the beginning.

[Assistant] How many people were on the island with you at that ground station?

[User] With Bendix, when I first got there, the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] ran the island. They did the power, the water, had a dispensary, but they pulled out. Bendix took over the whole thing, and I would say we had about 70 or 80 people there, but on the tracking station itself was about 10 people. You need all the other people because you had to make your own water, you had to make your own electricity, chow hall, living quarters. It took seven times as many people to sustain the few that were at the tracking stations.

[Assistant] You said the living conditions were sort of primitive. Can you describe how they worked?

[User] It was actually a family assignment for the FAA, so they had housing, they had regular houses on the lagoon. It was beachfront property, but I mean it was primitive in the sense that we were isolated. We had an airplane that came once every two weeks that brought mail, brought food, brought people, and took people off. The rest of the time, you were pretty much on your own. All the water had to be made, all the electricity had to be generated, to sustain the operation there.

[Assistant] What were your specific duties there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With Bendix, when I first got there, the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] ran the island. They did the power, the water, had a dispensary, but they pulled out. Bendix took over the whole thing, and I would say we had about 70 or 80 people there, but on the tracking station itself was about 10 people. You need all the other people because you had to make your own water, you had to make your own electricity, chow hall, living quarters. It took seven times as many people to sustain the few that were at the tracking stations.

[Assistant] You said the living conditions were sort of primitive. Can you describe how they worked?

[User] It was actually a family assignment for the FAA, so they had housing, they had regular houses on the lagoon. It was beachfront property, but I mean it was primitive in the sense that we were isolated. We had an airplane that came once every two weeks that brought mail, brought food, brought people, and took people off. The rest of the time, you were pretty much on your own. All the water had to be made, all the electricity had to be generated, to sustain the operation there.

[Assistant] What were your specific duties there?

[User] That was a kind of interesting thing for me because when I was in the Air Force, I worked on aircraft navigation systems, and since the FAA was pulling out, they wanted NASA to sustain the navigation systems that they had on the island. Also, at the tracking station, I worked as a telemetry engineer. I had a dual job there, and as a result of that, I had my own pickup truck because I had to be on-call 24 hours a day. Besides the tracking station, I had to take care of the navigational aids and the calibration that went along with that.

[Assistant] You were pretty young at that point, I assume.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was actually a family assignment for the FAA, so they had housing, they had regular houses on the lagoon. It was beachfront property, but I mean it was primitive in the sense that we were isolated. We had an airplane that came once every two weeks that brought mail, brought food, brought people, and took people off. The rest of the time, you were pretty much on your own. All the water had to be made, all the electricity had to be generated, to sustain the operation there.

[Assistant] What were your specific duties there?

[User] That was a kind of interesting thing for me because when I was in the Air Force, I worked on aircraft navigation systems, and since the FAA was pulling out, they wanted NASA to sustain the navigation systems that they had on the island. Also, at the tracking station, I worked as a telemetry engineer. I had a dual job there, and as a result of that, I had my own pickup truck because I had to be on-call 24 hours a day. Besides the tracking station, I had to take care of the navigational aids and the calibration that went along with that.

[Assistant] You were pretty young at that point, I assume.

[User] I was 23.

[Assistant] Were most of the people there working also young?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a kind of interesting thing for me because when I was in the Air Force, I worked on aircraft navigation systems, and since the FAA was pulling out, they wanted NASA to sustain the navigation systems that they had on the island. Also, at the tracking station, I worked as a telemetry engineer. I had a dual job there, and as a result of that, I had my own pickup truck because I had to be on-call 24 hours a day. Besides the tracking station, I had to take care of the navigational aids and the calibration that went along with that.

[Assistant] You were pretty young at that point, I assume.

[User] I was 23.

[Assistant] Were most of the people there working also young?

[User] Most of the people at the tracking station were similar to myself, but the sustainment people, the power, the cooks, the mechanics, were primarily from Hawaii, that had families up in Hawaii, and they were called range rats. They worked on the range there and they basically sent the money to their families in Hawaii, and then took the time at every opportunity to go up there. They pretty much lived on the range.

[Assistant] Was this also voice communications and all types of telemetry that you were tracking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 23.

[Assistant] Were most of the people there working also young?

[User] Most of the people at the tracking station were similar to myself, but the sustainment people, the power, the cooks, the mechanics, were primarily from Hawaii, that had families up in Hawaii, and they were called range rats. They worked on the range there and they basically sent the money to their families in Hawaii, and then took the time at every opportunity to go up there. They pretty much lived on the range.

[Assistant] Was this also voice communications and all types of telemetry that you were tracking?

[User] At that point, like I said, it was relatively primitive. We had voice communications, where we would relay Houston’s [Texas, Johnson Space Center, JSC] voice through the station up to the capsule, and the voice back to Houston. The telemetry was all recorded on tapes, on magnetic tapes, and sent back after the mission.

[Assistant] Just flown back to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of the people at the tracking station were similar to myself, but the sustainment people, the power, the cooks, the mechanics, were primarily from Hawaii, that had families up in Hawaii, and they were called range rats. They worked on the range there and they basically sent the money to their families in Hawaii, and then took the time at every opportunity to go up there. They pretty much lived on the range.

[Assistant] Was this also voice communications and all types of telemetry that you were tracking?

[User] At that point, like I said, it was relatively primitive. We had voice communications, where we would relay Houston’s [Texas, Johnson Space Center, JSC] voice through the station up to the capsule, and the voice back to Houston. The telemetry was all recorded on tapes, on magnetic tapes, and sent back after the mission.

[Assistant] Just flown back to Houston?

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] There were limited times, obviously, because each tracking station only had a certain amount of time for each mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that point, like I said, it was relatively primitive. We had voice communications, where we would relay Houston’s [Texas, Johnson Space Center, JSC] voice through the station up to the capsule, and the voice back to Houston. The telemetry was all recorded on tapes, on magnetic tapes, and sent back after the mission.

[Assistant] Just flown back to Houston?

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] There were limited times, obviously, because each tracking station only had a certain amount of time for each mission.

[User] Yes, the tracking station, if you look at a map, it’s usually drawn as a circle around the geographical location. That circle designates the area that you can cover for a spacecraft like Gemini, depending on the altitude. The circle will get bigger as you go higher and smaller as you go lower. The orbit, sometimes it hits just a part of the circle, sometimes it goes through the middle, and sometimes it just hits the other edges. On our passes, there tend to be three passes, so we would get three passes in a row and then we’d have a break until the next series of three passes.

[Assistant] What did you do after that year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] There were limited times, obviously, because each tracking station only had a certain amount of time for each mission.

[User] Yes, the tracking station, if you look at a map, it’s usually drawn as a circle around the geographical location. That circle designates the area that you can cover for a spacecraft like Gemini, depending on the altitude. The circle will get bigger as you go higher and smaller as you go lower. The orbit, sometimes it hits just a part of the circle, sometimes it goes through the middle, and sometimes it just hits the other edges. On our passes, there tend to be three passes, so we would get three passes in a row and then we’d have a break until the next series of three passes.

[Assistant] What did you do after that year?

[User] I went from there to [Tananarive] Madagascar, which was actually, at that time, the Madagascar station was what was known as a STADAN [Spacecraft Tracking and Data Acquisition Network] site. Kanton was a manned flight, manned spaceflight. The STADAN was a scientific satellite, but because of its location, we had a couple of trailers there that were used for manned spaceflight, and that’s the reason I went over there. I supported the rest of the Gemini Program in Madagascar, and then the beginning of the Apollo Program, which was the unmanned portion of it. We sent up the capsule and re-entered it unmanned to test the heat shield. It just happened to happen over Madagascar because they climbed over the Indian Ocean and then re-entered very fast there. We got some of the very early Apollo support there.

[Assistant] How long were you in Madagascar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the tracking station, if you look at a map, it’s usually drawn as a circle around the geographical location. That circle designates the area that you can cover for a spacecraft like Gemini, depending on the altitude. The circle will get bigger as you go higher and smaller as you go lower. The orbit, sometimes it hits just a part of the circle, sometimes it goes through the middle, and sometimes it just hits the other edges. On our passes, there tend to be three passes, so we would get three passes in a row and then we’d have a break until the next series of three passes.

[Assistant] What did you do after that year?

[User] I went from there to [Tananarive] Madagascar, which was actually, at that time, the Madagascar station was what was known as a STADAN [Spacecraft Tracking and Data Acquisition Network] site. Kanton was a manned flight, manned spaceflight. The STADAN was a scientific satellite, but because of its location, we had a couple of trailers there that were used for manned spaceflight, and that’s the reason I went over there. I supported the rest of the Gemini Program in Madagascar, and then the beginning of the Apollo Program, which was the unmanned portion of it. We sent up the capsule and re-entered it unmanned to test the heat shield. It just happened to happen over Madagascar because they climbed over the Indian Ocean and then re-entered very fast there. We got some of the very early Apollo support there.

[Assistant] How long were you in Madagascar?

[User] Madagascar was two years.

[Assistant] That was all through the end of Gemini and the first parts of Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went from there to [Tananarive] Madagascar, which was actually, at that time, the Madagascar station was what was known as a STADAN [Spacecraft Tracking and Data Acquisition Network] site. Kanton was a manned flight, manned spaceflight. The STADAN was a scientific satellite, but because of its location, we had a couple of trailers there that were used for manned spaceflight, and that’s the reason I went over there. I supported the rest of the Gemini Program in Madagascar, and then the beginning of the Apollo Program, which was the unmanned portion of it. We sent up the capsule and re-entered it unmanned to test the heat shield. It just happened to happen over Madagascar because they climbed over the Indian Ocean and then re-entered very fast there. We got some of the very early Apollo support there.

[Assistant] How long were you in Madagascar?

[User] Madagascar was two years.

[Assistant] That was all through the end of Gemini and the first parts of Apollo?

[User] That was the end of Gemini and the start of Apollo, yes.

[Assistant] Where did you go from there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Madagascar was two years.

[Assistant] That was all through the end of Gemini and the first parts of Apollo?

[User] That was the end of Gemini and the start of Apollo, yes.

[Assistant] Where did you go from there?

[User] From there, I came back to Maryland, here, and went on assignment on the Apollo aircraft that were used for testing all the stations for Apollo. The Apollo aircraft were Lockheed Constellations, four-engine propeller planes that had all the equipment that resembled the Apollo spacecraft. Some of the actual Apollo units were on the aircraft, but some of it was test equipment associated with that to make the system. To a station, we looked like the Apollo spacecraft, electronically, so the signals that were sent down were the same as we’d see from the Apollo.

[Assistant] The plane would go up and fly over the stations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the end of Gemini and the start of Apollo, yes.

[Assistant] Where did you go from there?

[User] From there, I came back to Maryland, here, and went on assignment on the Apollo aircraft that were used for testing all the stations for Apollo. The Apollo aircraft were Lockheed Constellations, four-engine propeller planes that had all the equipment that resembled the Apollo spacecraft. Some of the actual Apollo units were on the aircraft, but some of it was test equipment associated with that to make the system. To a station, we looked like the Apollo spacecraft, electronically, so the signals that were sent down were the same as we’d see from the Apollo.

[Assistant] The plane would go up and fly over the stations?

[User] We’d fly over the stations, we’d run simulated passes, so to them, again, it would look like there was a spacecraft going across. Basically, it was for training, and to certify the stations that they were ready for support. As part of that certification, we also gave them problems, where they were expecting a certain mode or certain configuration and we would set up something different and see how long it would take them to figure out that the Apollo spacecraft was not doing this. We’d delay the acquisition or break the signal and see how the station reacted. It was a proficiency training prior to every mission because at that time, there weren’t as many spacecraft as we have now.\n\n Now, you don’t need to learn how to track a satellite because there are a lot of satellites, but at that time, that was pretty much very specialized and one-of-a-kind. We did not only the stations, but we also did the Apollo ships—there were ships that were used during the Apollo Program. We would test them and also tested the ARIA [Advanced Range Instrumentation Aircraft], which were big aircraft that were used for tracking the Apollo. It was both land stations, ships, and airplanes, and consequently, they took me around the world because we had stations at that time in Australia, in Hawaii, Bermuda, Guam, Madrid, Canary Islands, Mexico.

[Assistant] You flew on the airplane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a crew member on the aircraft, yes. Along with us when we went on these trips, we took a NASA team of engineers that would go to the station and observe. They were observers, so as we put the station through their paces, they would observe how well they do and what improvements or how ready they were for the next mission.

[Assistant] That was quite a unique opportunity, I would think.

[User] It was. It was great, it was exciting, and for Apollo 11, we always got scripts from Houston because we did the voice as well. One of the people was acting as an astronaut and was actually reading scripts, the conversation that they could expect. It was pretty close on the landing. We didn’t have “One small step for mankind,” but everything else was pretty close. Those were interesting times, and it was really being a part of a team that went to the Moon.

[Assistant] Right, and doing things, like you said, the training to track these things that we’d never tracked before. Were there any other anecdotes during that time period, during that training period, that you can remember? Any challenges or unusual things that happened?

[User] When they took the rover to the Moon, the little vehicle, on the trip that we were going to the Pacific, we stopped in Houston and picked up a unit that was the camera. It was actually the LCRU [Lunar Communications Relay Unit], as it was called, LCRU unit that we mounted in the aircraft, and I think we had a JSC person with us as well to work it. They would remotely command the camera, and we had it mounted where the consoles were. So, you’re sitting there and out of the corner of your eye, you see the camera coming around like this, and then the lens would go out and the lens would go back in, and they were doing that from Houston. They were actually remotely commanding, just like they did on the Moon with the camera.

[Assistant] It allowed them to also practice what they were going to be doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was great, it was exciting, and for Apollo 11, we always got scripts from Houston because we did the voice as well. One of the people was acting as an astronaut and was actually reading scripts, the conversation that they could expect. It was pretty close on the landing. We didn’t have “One small step for mankind,” but everything else was pretty close. Those were interesting times, and it was really being a part of a team that went to the Moon.

[Assistant] Right, and doing things, like you said, the training to track these things that we’d never tracked before. Were there any other anecdotes during that time period, during that training period, that you can remember? Any challenges or unusual things that happened?

[User] When they took the rover to the Moon, the little vehicle, on the trip that we were going to the Pacific, we stopped in Houston and picked up a unit that was the camera. It was actually the LCRU [Lunar Communications Relay Unit], as it was called, LCRU unit that we mounted in the aircraft, and I think we had a JSC person with us as well to work it. They would remotely command the camera, and we had it mounted where the consoles were. So, you’re sitting there and out of the corner of your eye, you see the camera coming around like this, and then the lens would go out and the lens would go back in, and they were doing that from Houston. They were actually remotely commanding, just like they did on the Moon with the camera.

[Assistant] It allowed them to also practice what they were going to be doing.

[User] Right, so these were like integrated sims [simulations], then, yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. It sounds like a part of training that not a lot of people have heard about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When they took the rover to the Moon, the little vehicle, on the trip that we were going to the Pacific, we stopped in Houston and picked up a unit that was the camera. It was actually the LCRU [Lunar Communications Relay Unit], as it was called, LCRU unit that we mounted in the aircraft, and I think we had a JSC person with us as well to work it. They would remotely command the camera, and we had it mounted where the consoles were. So, you’re sitting there and out of the corner of your eye, you see the camera coming around like this, and then the lens would go out and the lens would go back in, and they were doing that from Houston. They were actually remotely commanding, just like they did on the Moon with the camera.

[Assistant] It allowed them to also practice what they were going to be doing.

[User] Right, so these were like integrated sims [simulations], then, yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. It sounds like a part of training that not a lot of people have heard about.

[User] The challenges were the stations were pretty stable with manpower, but the ships, because they would go out and then when they would come back in, there would be people that would get off the ship, and they’d be replaced by new people. That was always more of a challenge to train them because you were starting with a little bit of a new crew. Then, the ARAI aircraft, which were manned by the Air Force, this was during the Vietnam War and they rotated the people off those airplanes to Vietnam, and they replaced them. With them, it was always a challenge to get the crews trained because you were starting with people that had never done it.

[Assistant] Your group was responsible for that training also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, so these were like integrated sims [simulations], then, yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. It sounds like a part of training that not a lot of people have heard about.

[User] The challenges were the stations were pretty stable with manpower, but the ships, because they would go out and then when they would come back in, there would be people that would get off the ship, and they’d be replaced by new people. That was always more of a challenge to train them because you were starting with a little bit of a new crew. Then, the ARAI aircraft, which were manned by the Air Force, this was during the Vietnam War and they rotated the people off those airplanes to Vietnam, and they replaced them. With them, it was always a challenge to get the crews trained because you were starting with people that had never done it.

[Assistant] Your group was responsible for that training also?

[User] We were responsible for providing the training for them. The first day was always very rough, the second day got better, and the third day, it improved. Then, they were ready, and then after the next mission, we started all over again.

[Assistant] Yes, started with a new crew. Did the training last about the same length that the mission was planned for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The challenges were the stations were pretty stable with manpower, but the ships, because they would go out and then when they would come back in, there would be people that would get off the ship, and they’d be replaced by new people. That was always more of a challenge to train them because you were starting with a little bit of a new crew. Then, the ARAI aircraft, which were manned by the Air Force, this was during the Vietnam War and they rotated the people off those airplanes to Vietnam, and they replaced them. With them, it was always a challenge to get the crews trained because you were starting with people that had never done it.

[Assistant] Your group was responsible for that training also?

[User] We were responsible for providing the training for them. The first day was always very rough, the second day got better, and the third day, it improved. Then, they were ready, and then after the next mission, we started all over again.

[Assistant] Yes, started with a new crew. Did the training last about the same length that the mission was planned for?

[User] We normally did a week at a location, so the first day was basically interface checks. We’d actually fly circles, so they would have us continually, and then we would get into the passes. No, it was not the length of the mission, but it would put them through all the phases. Whatever phase they would be supporting, we would concentrate on that.

[Assistant] Sometimes, I imagine you would have to do it more than once, especially with those new groups coming through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were responsible for providing the training for them. The first day was always very rough, the second day got better, and the third day, it improved. Then, they were ready, and then after the next mission, we started all over again.

[Assistant] Yes, started with a new crew. Did the training last about the same length that the mission was planned for?

[User] We normally did a week at a location, so the first day was basically interface checks. We’d actually fly circles, so they would have us continually, and then we would get into the passes. No, it was not the length of the mission, but it would put them through all the phases. Whatever phase they would be supporting, we would concentrate on that.

[Assistant] Sometimes, I imagine you would have to do it more than once, especially with those new groups coming through.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You did that all the way through Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We normally did a week at a location, so the first day was basically interface checks. We’d actually fly circles, so they would have us continually, and then we would get into the passes. No, it was not the length of the mission, but it would put them through all the phases. Whatever phase they would be supporting, we would concentrate on that.

[Assistant] Sometimes, I imagine you would have to do it more than once, especially with those new groups coming through.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You did that all the way through Apollo?

[User] Did that all the way through Apollo, and then after the Apollo, the aircraft were decommissioned and I moved on into working at Goddard here. For missions, we had what we called a Network Support Team. There was a team back here that helped the stations getting ready for missions and during the missions, actual technical assistance there. After that, we went through ASTP, the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project] mission, and then we got into Skylab. I was involved with that here at Goddard.

[Assistant] Can you talk about just some of those duties that you were doing during ASTP and Skylab in a little more detail about what you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You did that all the way through Apollo?

[User] Did that all the way through Apollo, and then after the Apollo, the aircraft were decommissioned and I moved on into working at Goddard here. For missions, we had what we called a Network Support Team. There was a team back here that helped the stations getting ready for missions and during the missions, actual technical assistance there. After that, we went through ASTP, the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project] mission, and then we got into Skylab. I was involved with that here at Goddard.

[Assistant] Can you talk about just some of those duties that you were doing during ASTP and Skylab in a little more detail about what you did?

[User] During ASTP, then, as I said, the Network Support Team was based at the Network Control Center at Goddard, and we would interface with the stations. We would set them up for testing, we would monitor their performance, and then we would assist them in technical problems, so each mission had its own timeline and we would go through simulations and countdowns and the whole gamut of things that you put a station through.

[Assistant] Was there any interaction, with ASTP, with the Russian side as far as the network support?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did that all the way through Apollo, and then after the Apollo, the aircraft were decommissioned and I moved on into working at Goddard here. For missions, we had what we called a Network Support Team. There was a team back here that helped the stations getting ready for missions and during the missions, actual technical assistance there. After that, we went through ASTP, the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project] mission, and then we got into Skylab. I was involved with that here at Goddard.

[Assistant] Can you talk about just some of those duties that you were doing during ASTP and Skylab in a little more detail about what you did?

[User] During ASTP, then, as I said, the Network Support Team was based at the Network Control Center at Goddard, and we would interface with the stations. We would set them up for testing, we would monitor their performance, and then we would assist them in technical problems, so each mission had its own timeline and we would go through simulations and countdowns and the whole gamut of things that you put a station through.

[Assistant] Was there any interaction, with ASTP, with the Russian side as far as the network support?

[User] No, we did not have it, but we monitored, during the mission, the real-time voice. We would hear the Russians as well as our crew, but no, we did not deal with them. That was, I think, done all through Houston.

[Assistant] I believe in 1981, you became manager of the Test and Integration Group, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During ASTP, then, as I said, the Network Support Team was based at the Network Control Center at Goddard, and we would interface with the stations. We would set them up for testing, we would monitor their performance, and then we would assist them in technical problems, so each mission had its own timeline and we would go through simulations and countdowns and the whole gamut of things that you put a station through.

[Assistant] Was there any interaction, with ASTP, with the Russian side as far as the network support?

[User] No, we did not have it, but we monitored, during the mission, the real-time voice. We would hear the Russians as well as our crew, but no, we did not deal with them. That was, I think, done all through Houston.

[Assistant] I believe in 1981, you became manager of the Test and Integration Group, is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Of course, Shuttle coming in at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we did not have it, but we monitored, during the mission, the real-time voice. We would hear the Russians as well as our crew, but no, we did not deal with them. That was, I think, done all through Houston.

[Assistant] I believe in 1981, you became manager of the Test and Integration Group, is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Of course, Shuttle coming in at that point.

[User] The Test and Integration Group consisted of the Compatibility Test Van, which were actually vans, big trailer trucks, that we would send to the manufacturers of spacecraft and test the satellites while they were in the factory, before they were launched, to ensure that they were compatible with the support that we were going to be providing, either through the ground stations or through TDRSS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System]. That was very interesting. It’s a very technical job because essentially, you replicate the station that the spacecraft’s going to see and ensure that the signals are all compatible and that there are no problems that we would experience once it was launched.\n\n The other part of it was called the SOSC, Spacecraft Operations and Simulations Center, and we used that to actually field teams that went around and did sort of similar things I did on the airplanes but did it now with a computer at the station itself. It wasn’t as dynamic, but it still provided the interaction that they would be seeing. That was the Network Testing, was made up of those two entities there, the compatibility testing and the SOSC, the Simulation Operations Center.

[Assistant] You mentioned TDRSS also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Of course, Shuttle coming in at that point.

[User] The Test and Integration Group consisted of the Compatibility Test Van, which were actually vans, big trailer trucks, that we would send to the manufacturers of spacecraft and test the satellites while they were in the factory, before they were launched, to ensure that they were compatible with the support that we were going to be providing, either through the ground stations or through TDRSS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System]. That was very interesting. It’s a very technical job because essentially, you replicate the station that the spacecraft’s going to see and ensure that the signals are all compatible and that there are no problems that we would experience once it was launched.\n\n The other part of it was called the SOSC, Spacecraft Operations and Simulations Center, and we used that to actually field teams that went around and did sort of similar things I did on the airplanes but did it now with a computer at the station itself. It wasn’t as dynamic, but it still provided the interaction that they would be seeing. That was the Network Testing, was made up of those two entities there, the compatibility testing and the SOSC, the Simulation Operations Center.

[Assistant] You mentioned TDRSS also.

[User] Then, I got involved in TDRSS, in the very beginning of TDRSS. The first time I went out to White Sands [New Mexico] there, the facility was still under construction and the concept of the TDRSS, the initial concept of the TDRSS was it was going to be a commercial service and NASA was going to get the signals that they paid for, but the satellites were going to be also used for commercial support. There was a part of White Sands that was called NASA Ground Terminal, NGT, that would receive the signals from the other side, which was the commercial side, and then take those signals and distribute them within the NASA environment there. I was involved in the early testing, or the implementation of NASA Ground Terminal, and then the early testing of that and the early support of TDRSS.

[Assistant] Which finally launched in ’83, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then, I got involved in TDRSS, in the very beginning of TDRSS. The first time I went out to White Sands [New Mexico] there, the facility was still under construction and the concept of the TDRSS, the initial concept of the TDRSS was it was going to be a commercial service and NASA was going to get the signals that they paid for, but the satellites were going to be also used for commercial support. There was a part of White Sands that was called NASA Ground Terminal, NGT, that would receive the signals from the other side, which was the commercial side, and then take those signals and distribute them within the NASA environment there. I was involved in the early testing, or the implementation of NASA Ground Terminal, and then the early testing of that and the early support of TDRSS.

[Assistant] Which finally launched in ’83, right?

[User] It did, yes. That satellite had a bad ride. The rocket that was used to propel it into the geostationary orbit had a problem and it did not get into the right orbit. It took about six months, I believe, from what I remember, to coach it into the synchronous orbit. They were using the little thrusters on the spacecraft, which were not designed to do that, and so the SOSC was involved with monitoring that data in real time and the temperatures on the thrusters so that over time, the satellite was put in orbit. Then, it lasted forever. It was just, I think, last year that it was decommissioned. Its design life was, I believe, 10 years, and it exceeded that by quite a bit.

[Assistant] Were you working all through that time period? Were you still in that management position, the Test and Integration Group?

[User] Right. I got a little more hands-on technically with the TDRSS, but yes, I was still at the same position.

[Assistant] Then, of course, the second TDRSS that was going to launch was on the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L], and then was lost during the accident.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I got a little more hands-on technically with the TDRSS, but yes, I was still at the same position.

[Assistant] Then, of course, the second TDRSS that was going to launch was on the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L], and then was lost during the accident.

[User] It was, and unfortunately, I was at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] at the time for a meeting for Hubble [Space Telescope] because we had some interface meetings on the Hubble launch that was coming up later. We were at a Hubble meeting and they announced that it’s, like, “45 minutes before launch, and if you want to go watch it, we’ll break the meeting and reconvene after the launch.” Three of us went down in front of the VAB [Vehicle Assembly] Building and there was an open field there, and I have pictures where it was so cold that I had an overcoat on. I had the collar turned up because the wind was really cool.\n\n The launch went off and then it appeared like there was a problem, but it looked like, we were hoping, that the Shuttle would actually separate and fly off, but that was not to be. We saw the whole thing.

[Assistant] It must have been quite an emotional day, the rest of the day, then.

[User] I went back to the headquarters building where we had the meeting, and everybody was glued in front of the TV sets. You could hear a pin drop. They kept replaying and replaying the launch sequence there, so yes. After that, I had a hard time watching TV for the future launches until the separation, until those solids separated.

[Assistant] I can understand that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went back to the headquarters building where we had the meeting, and everybody was glued in front of the TV sets. You could hear a pin drop. They kept replaying and replaying the launch sequence there, so yes. After that, I had a hard time watching TV for the future launches until the separation, until those solids separated.

[Assistant] I can understand that.

[User] I just had a scar from that. It was kind of different, how I happened to be down there, because the Shuttle was supposed to launch, like, two days before that. They slipped, and then the next day, they were supposed to launch the day that I was flying to Florida, so when I landed in Florida, I said, “Did it launch?”\n\n They said, “No.”\n\n I said, “Oh, good, I’ll get to see it.” What happened the second day, I think there was some handle or something they had a problem with, and so they scrubbed the launch and they fixed that. We ended up seeing it because of the slips there.

[Assistant] After that, obviously you probably didn’t just go back to your meetings. Did everything just stop?

[User] It was like everybody was walking around in shock at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida]. Our meeting was at the headquarters building. No, we did not resume the meeting, but the rest of the day was spent essentially watching the thing over and over again, and seeing if there was any more information that would come forth from that.

[Assistant] Of course, you were meeting about Hubble and this was definitely going to put a hold on Hubble.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just had a scar from that. It was kind of different, how I happened to be down there, because the Shuttle was supposed to launch, like, two days before that. They slipped, and then the next day, they were supposed to launch the day that I was flying to Florida, so when I landed in Florida, I said, “Did it launch?”\n\n They said, “No.”\n\n I said, “Oh, good, I’ll get to see it.” What happened the second day, I think there was some handle or something they had a problem with, and so they scrubbed the launch and they fixed that. We ended up seeing it because of the slips there.

[Assistant] After that, obviously you probably didn’t just go back to your meetings. Did everything just stop?

[User] It was like everybody was walking around in shock at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida]. Our meeting was at the headquarters building. No, we did not resume the meeting, but the rest of the day was spent essentially watching the thing over and over again, and seeing if there was any more information that would come forth from that.

[Assistant] Of course, you were meeting about Hubble and this was definitely going to put a hold on Hubble.

[User] It delayed that substantially, yes.

[Assistant] What exactly were you meeting about and did you continue working with the Hubble project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was like everybody was walking around in shock at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida]. Our meeting was at the headquarters building. No, we did not resume the meeting, but the rest of the day was spent essentially watching the thing over and over again, and seeing if there was any more information that would come forth from that.

[Assistant] Of course, you were meeting about Hubble and this was definitely going to put a hold on Hubble.

[User] It delayed that substantially, yes.

[Assistant] What exactly were you meeting about and did you continue working with the Hubble project?

[User] The Hubble was supported by the Space Network, and also during the launch by the Ground Network. I think we were discussing three things, they were doing compatibility testing down at the Cape when the Hubble got down there, and also the support from the TDRSS and the ground stations that was going to be upcoming. It was kind of a project meeting.

[Assistant] I know when Shuttles launched, there was a whole network of networks that carried the telemetry and the signals, starting, I believe, with MILA [Merritt Island Launch Area] was first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It delayed that substantially, yes.

[Assistant] What exactly were you meeting about and did you continue working with the Hubble project?

[User] The Hubble was supported by the Space Network, and also during the launch by the Ground Network. I think we were discussing three things, they were doing compatibility testing down at the Cape when the Hubble got down there, and also the support from the TDRSS and the ground stations that was going to be upcoming. It was kind of a project meeting.

[Assistant] I know when Shuttles launched, there was a whole network of networks that carried the telemetry and the signals, starting, I believe, with MILA [Merritt Island Launch Area] was first.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There was a process, could you just walk us through that? Walk us through a Shuttle launch, as far as the network coverage as it launched and went into orbit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I spent about six months in there twice, when we had a senior manager and the station manager that left, and I would fill in until we found a person that was qualified that we could put down there.

[Assistant] Of course, from the beginning, with Gemini and Apollo and the limited coverage and the numerous ground stations, then with TDRSS.

[User] What a difference, what a difference.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that difference?

[User] In the early days, probably the longest pass you would get would be 12, 13, 14 minutes, and that would be ideal. That would be at the circle across the middle, but most of the passes were less than that because you hit the fringes. With TDRSS, it’s continuous, so essentially, we went from having 10-minute spots occasionally to full-time voice communication and data communication with the crew. Yes, it changed.

[Assistant] I imagine your job was a little busier at that point just because there wasn’t as much downtime in-between.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What a difference, what a difference.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that difference?

[User] In the early days, probably the longest pass you would get would be 12, 13, 14 minutes, and that would be ideal. That would be at the circle across the middle, but most of the passes were less than that because you hit the fringes. With TDRSS, it’s continuous, so essentially, we went from having 10-minute spots occasionally to full-time voice communication and data communication with the crew. Yes, it changed.

[Assistant] I imagine your job was a little busier at that point just because there wasn’t as much downtime in-between.

[User] On the other hand, once you establish the signal and you have the TDRSS acquisition, after that it’s pretty much like a telephone call. Once you make your call, it just keeps—

[Assistant] It keeps going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the early days, probably the longest pass you would get would be 12, 13, 14 minutes, and that would be ideal. That would be at the circle across the middle, but most of the passes were less than that because you hit the fringes. With TDRSS, it’s continuous, so essentially, we went from having 10-minute spots occasionally to full-time voice communication and data communication with the crew. Yes, it changed.

[Assistant] I imagine your job was a little busier at that point just because there wasn’t as much downtime in-between.

[User] On the other hand, once you establish the signal and you have the TDRSS acquisition, after that it’s pretty much like a telephone call. Once you make your call, it just keeps—

[Assistant] It keeps going.

[User] Keeps going, yes.

[Assistant] It really made a difference. I know the technology, as it changed throughout your career, has really made a difference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the other hand, once you establish the signal and you have the TDRSS acquisition, after that it’s pretty much like a telephone call. Once you make your call, it just keeps—

[Assistant] It keeps going.

[User] Keeps going, yes.

[Assistant] It really made a difference. I know the technology, as it changed throughout your career, has really made a difference.

[User] Tremendously, yes. We used to think a high data rate for the communications, when I went up to Madagascar, we had 9.6-kilobit communication links. During the Apollo Program, the sites went to 56-kilobit lines, so they would have three 56-kilobit lines. Now, you have megabits. During Mercury and Gemini, Houston used to send people out to the stations themselves, they would have a flight surgeon at the station, they’d have a controller from Houston that would do the actual communication with the thing. With the advent of the higher communication lines and the TDRSS, they sit in Houston and talk to them continually, any time they want. Before, that had to be planned, “When’s the next acquisition and when can we...” Quite a change, yes.

[Assistant] You were a contractor all the way through your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Keeps going, yes.

[Assistant] It really made a difference. I know the technology, as it changed throughout your career, has really made a difference.

[User] Tremendously, yes. We used to think a high data rate for the communications, when I went up to Madagascar, we had 9.6-kilobit communication links. During the Apollo Program, the sites went to 56-kilobit lines, so they would have three 56-kilobit lines. Now, you have megabits. During Mercury and Gemini, Houston used to send people out to the stations themselves, they would have a flight surgeon at the station, they’d have a controller from Houston that would do the actual communication with the thing. With the advent of the higher communication lines and the TDRSS, they sit in Houston and talk to them continually, any time they want. Before, that had to be planned, “When’s the next acquisition and when can we...” Quite a change, yes.

[Assistant] You were a contractor all the way through your career?

[User] I’ve been a contractor my whole career, yes.

[Assistant] Was it in ’88, AlliedSignal, did they just take over for Bendix for the contract you were working on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tremendously, yes. We used to think a high data rate for the communications, when I went up to Madagascar, we had 9.6-kilobit communication links. During the Apollo Program, the sites went to 56-kilobit lines, so they would have three 56-kilobit lines. Now, you have megabits. During Mercury and Gemini, Houston used to send people out to the stations themselves, they would have a flight surgeon at the station, they’d have a controller from Houston that would do the actual communication with the thing. With the advent of the higher communication lines and the TDRSS, they sit in Houston and talk to them continually, any time they want. Before, that had to be planned, “When’s the next acquisition and when can we...” Quite a change, yes.

[Assistant] You were a contractor all the way through your career?

[User] I’ve been a contractor my whole career, yes.

[Assistant] Was it in ’88, AlliedSignal, did they just take over for Bendix for the contract you were working on?

[User] AlliedSignal bought Bendix and essentially, Bendix was merged into it. The contract I was on, Bendix Field Engineering won that initially and kept it until two years ago. It was a long run, from ’63 to ’11.

[Assistant] You became the associate program manager for NASCOM [NASA Communications System]. Can you talk a little bit about NASCOM and what that meant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was out in DSN, I was assigned there as a director of the program, the contract that Bendix or at that time AlliedSignal had with JPL, and I was there when the Sojourner [rover] landed on Mars. That was the first time they used a balloon or a ball that bounced, and that’s how it landed. That was really, really exciting.

[Assistant] Where were you when that happened? You were at JPL?

[User] I was at JPL.

[Assistant] Yes, that is exciting.

[User] Yes, so it was a fun year that I did there.

[Assistant] Yes, it sounds like it. After that, is that when you were working on CSOC [Consolidated Space Operations Contract], after that that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at JPL.

[Assistant] Yes, that is exciting.

[User] Yes, so it was a fun year that I did there.

[Assistant] Yes, it sounds like it. After that, is that when you were working on CSOC [Consolidated Space Operations Contract], after that that?

[User] Then, CSOC was coming in, so when I went out to JPL, I actually was filling in because the person that was there left. I made it clear that I would do this temporarily but not for the long-term. Well, “temporarily” turned out to be a year, and there was a long commute for that year, but like I said, it was a very rewarding experience. I appreciate much more the challenges of deep space that are faced there.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s so different from manned spaceflight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, so it was a fun year that I did there.

[Assistant] Yes, it sounds like it. After that, is that when you were working on CSOC [Consolidated Space Operations Contract], after that that?

[User] Then, CSOC was coming in, so when I went out to JPL, I actually was filling in because the person that was there left. I made it clear that I would do this temporarily but not for the long-term. Well, “temporarily” turned out to be a year, and there was a long commute for that year, but like I said, it was a very rewarding experience. I appreciate much more the challenges of deep space that are faced there.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s so different from manned spaceflight.

[User] They’re both challenging but in different ways, yes. Then, so we were getting ready for CSOC, and CSOC was a new concept that NASA was doing by consolidating—I mentioned earlier that there was consolidation at Goddard, like the NASCOM and the tracking and the flight dynamics and the spacecraft operations—the next step with CSOC was doing it across all the Centers at NASA. It took JSC, it took Kennedy, it took [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], Goddard, and took the similar type of work and put it under one contract. AlliedSignal bid with Lockheed and we were successful in winning that contract and then phasing it in as a consolidating contract.\n\n While it was technically successful, it was, I don’t think, perceived as being the right way to go because after five years, which was the life of the contract, it was changed back and broken up back to going back to the individual Centers. Like I said, operationally, I think it was successful, but from a business standpoint, I think there was a lot of resistance and perceived problems that basically said, “You know, we need to go back to smaller chunks.”

[Assistant] As part of your work during that, you were the customer services director. You helped implement commercial services to assist the government owned ground stations. Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very short fuse on it.

[Assistant] You mentioned also in your résumé that you gave us, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter [LRO] launch?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The antenna system support?

[User] For the LRO, we installed a new antenna out in White Sands. It was used exclusively for the LRO; we’re now beginning to use it for other uses as well. It was a new antenna, new system, and there was a lot of anxiety about using something brand new and untried. I got involved in a lot of the testing prior to launch and then supported it during the launch. Went out to White Sands on the first pass, and everything worked. The other part, the reason there was anxiety, is because the LRO uses Ka band, and this was the first Ka band user that we had. The antenna is S band and also Ka band, and so, we did a lot of testing on both S band and Ka band, and when it launched, it worked. It’s been working ever since.

[Assistant] As we mentioned, you’ve worked as a contractor since the beginning, but having NASA as a customer, how has that changed since the beginning in the early ’60s, when you were working on Gemini, to now? How has that relationship changed, or has it changed over the years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I’ve always found a good relationship with my government customers. I almost became a NASA employee at one point, and that was getting ready to start when President [Ronald] Reagan got elected, and of course, his first act was to put a freeze on government hiring. The offer was retracted, and that was as close as I got to being a government employee.\n\n Like I said, it was very close, so I could have been on either side of the thing. I’ve always had good relations with the people that I work with. I think NASA’s a great place to work, and I think it’s an exciting place to work, and I think it draws, both on the government side and the contractor side, people that like that kind of excitement and challenges and working environment. I’ve always had good relations. The contractors and government complement each other. Sometimes some are stronger technically, but both sides, they usually complement each other to work together. It’s a very strong team.

[Assistant] When you first started, you were more on the technical side, hands-on, doing the work, and you’ve moved to management, more management, and then you were talking about going to Greece for the Soyuz.

[User] See, I like to keep my hands in it.

[Assistant] Yes, I was going to say, is that something you miss doing, being a manager, and do you take those opportunities as often as possible?

[User] You can manage different ways. My management style has always been more hands-on and involved with people that I manage rather than sitting in an office. I’ve always felt that if I ask somebody to do something, I’d like to know that I can do it and know what it entails, doing it. I would say my management style was hands-on, working with the people, rather than more administrative.

[Assistant] It’s easier to manage if you know what they’re doing, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, I like to keep my hands in it.

[Assistant] Yes, I was going to say, is that something you miss doing, being a manager, and do you take those opportunities as often as possible?

[User] You can manage different ways. My management style has always been more hands-on and involved with people that I manage rather than sitting in an office. I’ve always felt that if I ask somebody to do something, I’d like to know that I can do it and know what it entails, doing it. I would say my management style was hands-on, working with the people, rather than more administrative.

[Assistant] It’s easier to manage if you know what they’re doing, right?

[User] If you understand the challenges because a lot of times, it’s easy to criticize, but if you don’t fully understand what it takes to do the job there, it’s easy to go astray.

[Assistant] You’ve had the luck or the need in your job to travel all over the world. Are there any experiences or any places that stand out in your mind as the most memorable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a different time. I had gotten out of the Air Force right as Vietnam was starting up, and one of our trips to Australia—when we did the Apollo trips, we basically had two big trips. One was Atlantic [Ocean], which did MILA, did Grand Bahamas was the station, did Ascension Island was a station, Dakar, and then the Canary Islands and Madrid. That was pretty much the Atlantic trip. Then, going to the Pacific [Ocean] was the other trip, and that was basically Goldstone in California, Hawaii, Guam, Carnarvon, which was a station on the West Coast, Orroral, which was a station on the East Coast in Australia, made up that trip. On one of the trips that I was going on the Pacific, we went from Baltimore to North Dakota, North Dakota to Alaska, Alaska to Japan, and then down to heading towards Australia.\n\n We stopped in the Philippines, at Clark Air Force Base, and that’s where it kind of hit me, the Vietnam War, because we landed there. They had airplanes everywhere, and they parked us on the taxiway. When we said, “Do you have any rooms at the BOQ [Bachelor Officers Quarters],” they just laughed and said, “No, you go downtown.” The place was overrun by military aircraft and the influx of traffic that was caused by Vietnam there.\n\n When I was in Madagascar, news was kind of hard to get, but we could get BBC on the radio, so that’s how we kept in contact with the real world there. By the time we get a Herald Trib [Tribune, newspaper] from Europe, it’d be a week old, but it was still good to read a newspaper even though it was a week old.

[Assistant] With Apollo 11, when they landed on the Moon, where were you?

[User] I was here, I was here at Goddard.

[Assistant] Were you at work or were you at home?

[User] I was at home, glued in front of the TV.

[Assistant] Knowing that you helped bring about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was here, I was here at Goddard.

[Assistant] Were you at work or were you at home?

[User] I was at home, glued in front of the TV.

[Assistant] Knowing that you helped bring about that.

[User] Listening to it, and I said, “Boy, that’s just like we were training!”

[Assistant] They had the same script you did, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Listening to it, and I said, “Boy, that’s just like we were training!”

[Assistant] They had the same script you did, right?

[User] The script was made up in Houston, it was basically to do with the readings of the landing itself. It sounded very similar, yes, because their readouts, they knew they were going to be getting that type of readouts.

[Assistant] That’s exciting.

[User] Yes, that was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, is there anything that you would say was the most challenging, and what would that be?