[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I used my American Express while I was actually on orbit.

[Assistant] Did you really?

[User] I did. Have I mentioned listening to this Cajun radio program on orbit?

[Assistant] You did, yes.

[User] This is a public radio station so they don’t do commercials, they just operate based on donations. Generally when they’re doing a fund drive they’ll do it over two weekends. I’m listening to it early one week, and they’ve just started the fund drive, so the next Saturday I call down and make a donation and charge it to my Amex. So yes, I actually was able to use a credit card in space.

[Assistant] I never would have thought that. I would have thought that you would have been completely, I guess, cut off, not using your credit cards.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Have I mentioned listening to this Cajun radio program on orbit?

[Assistant] You did, yes.

[User] This is a public radio station so they don’t do commercials, they just operate based on donations. Generally when they’re doing a fund drive they’ll do it over two weekends. I’m listening to it early one week, and they’ve just started the fund drive, so the next Saturday I call down and make a donation and charge it to my Amex. So yes, I actually was able to use a credit card in space.

[Assistant] I never would have thought that. I would have thought that you would have been completely, I guess, cut off, not using your credit cards.

[User] What I had was an application, I think on my computer, which included all my credit cards—the card numbers, the security codes, expiration dates, all those things.

[Assistant] That was a good idea. I doubt you had a wallet with you, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is a public radio station so they don’t do commercials, they just operate based on donations. Generally when they’re doing a fund drive they’ll do it over two weekends. I’m listening to it early one week, and they’ve just started the fund drive, so the next Saturday I call down and make a donation and charge it to my Amex. So yes, I actually was able to use a credit card in space.

[Assistant] I never would have thought that. I would have thought that you would have been completely, I guess, cut off, not using your credit cards.

[User] What I had was an application, I think on my computer, which included all my credit cards—the card numbers, the security codes, expiration dates, all those things.

[Assistant] That was a good idea. I doubt you had a wallet with you, right?

[User] I did not have a wallet with me, that’s true. Didn’t have a passport.

[Assistant] I suppose you didn’t really need a passport, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I had was an application, I think on my computer, which included all my credit cards—the card numbers, the security codes, expiration dates, all those things.

[Assistant] That was a good idea. I doubt you had a wallet with you, right?

[User] I did not have a wallet with me, that’s true. Didn’t have a passport.

[Assistant] I suppose you didn’t really need a passport, did you?

[User] You didn’t. I don’t remember what we did for the Space Station flight, because I had to have my passport while I was in Russia. For Shuttle missions though there was a group over in FOD [Flight Operations Directorate] that, before you would launch, they would have a couple changes of clothes for you. There would be one that would go to Florida; there would be another change that could go to California if you went there.\n\n I think if you landed somewhere other than California or Florida they would grab one of those sets of clothes to go there. They would have your passport, because of course the transoceanic abort landings, you could have landed in Spain, you could have landed in Africa. Part of the immediate response team would go there with your passport.

[Assistant] That makes sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did not have a wallet with me, that’s true. Didn’t have a passport.

[Assistant] I suppose you didn’t really need a passport, did you?

[User] You didn’t. I don’t remember what we did for the Space Station flight, because I had to have my passport while I was in Russia. For Shuttle missions though there was a group over in FOD [Flight Operations Directorate] that, before you would launch, they would have a couple changes of clothes for you. There would be one that would go to Florida; there would be another change that could go to California if you went there.\n\n I think if you landed somewhere other than California or Florida they would grab one of those sets of clothes to go there. They would have your passport, because of course the transoceanic abort landings, you could have landed in Spain, you could have landed in Africa. Part of the immediate response team would go there with your passport.

[Assistant] That makes sense.

[User] There was a book. I want to say it was called Shuttle Down [by Lee Corey]. It was about a Space Shuttle that did an abort landing somewhere on an island in the Pacific [Ocean], and that was one of the issues they had to deal with, these crewmembers not having their passports with them.

[Assistant] Probably not something you put in the middeck locker. How long did it take you to get acclimated to being back on gravity, on terra firma?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no, it was very formal. They had their band out. I’m trying to remember if they have some of their troops marching as well. You put flowers at Gagarin’s statue and then go to the House of the Cosmonauts, which is an auditorium and a museum. It’s got an office there—was it Gagarin’s office? Maybe. Before you fly there’s a book there that you write a message in and sign.\n\n At the ceremony you get presented a lot of mementos, get to make a few remarks. I made a few remarks in particular directed at my Russian teacher. Like many languages, there’s a formal way of addressing people and a familiar way to address people in Russian. She had told me how to ask to begin addressing someone in the familiar, using familiar pronouns. I don’t know if I actually asked her at that time, or I just said it, but her response [was], “Well, no. I’m the teacher and you’re the student, so can’t do it now.” So that was one of the things I asked when I gave my remarks. I asked her if we could now start using the familiar to talk to each other. She was a good—I hope she still lives. She was a good teacher.

[Assistant] Were there any lessons learned that you passed along from your increment to future crews or to the Station Program?

[User] I’m sure there were. It was a long time ago.

[Assistant] I know it doesn’t seem that long ago, but it is.

[User] It does when I try to start remembering details.

[Assistant] Actually, I think you’ve done a great job. We spent a lot of time talking about all this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sure there were. It was a long time ago.

[Assistant] I know it doesn’t seem that long ago, but it is.

[User] It does when I try to start remembering details.

[Assistant] Actually, I think you’ve done a great job. We spent a lot of time talking about all this.

[User] I think what I did more than anything else is I tried really hard to help people who were just starting to go to Russia and start training, to share the things that I had done to adjust to living in Russia.

[Assistant] Can you give a couple of examples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It does when I try to start remembering details.

[Assistant] Actually, I think you’ve done a great job. We spent a lot of time talking about all this.

[User] I think what I did more than anything else is I tried really hard to help people who were just starting to go to Russia and start training, to share the things that I had done to adjust to living in Russia.

[Assistant] Can you give a couple of examples?

[User] Things about shopping and how to travel. Things that I found, what I did for relaxation or adventure. If you’re going to jog, where the holes in the fence are.

[Assistant] I think this might be a good place for us to stop and then we can pick it up next time. We still have a few more years left. Thanks for coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's pretty much how I—

[Assistant] How you came here?

[User] —came here. I got into that field of mathematics.

[Assistant] Was your husband transferred out here or did he get a job out here?

[User] No. He got out of service when—his parents lived here, so when he got out of service, we decided to move here.

[Assistant] That must have been quite a change for you, coming from the South, going all the way to Ohio. Was the feeling any different here than it was in Alabama?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —came here. I got into that field of mathematics.

[Assistant] Was your husband transferred out here or did he get a job out here?

[User] No. He got out of service when—his parents lived here, so when he got out of service, we decided to move here.

[Assistant] That must have been quite a change for you, coming from the South, going all the way to Ohio. Was the feeling any different here than it was in Alabama?

[User] No. I mean, people are people wherever you are, so I didn't find that it was that great of a—I guess I don't understand what you mean about a different feeling.

[Assistant] I know for me, I mean, being basically a Southerner, and when I go other places, sometimes the people are a little different, different places you live.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. He got out of service when—his parents lived here, so when he got out of service, we decided to move here.

[Assistant] That must have been quite a change for you, coming from the South, going all the way to Ohio. Was the feeling any different here than it was in Alabama?

[User] No. I mean, people are people wherever you are, so I didn't find that it was that great of a—I guess I don't understand what you mean about a different feeling.

[Assistant] I know for me, I mean, being basically a Southerner, and when I go other places, sometimes the people are a little different, different places you live.

[User] Okay, I will say that not just the people here, but I think I fell into it myself. We were not as friendly. And I don't mean to say real hostile. But when I grew up, if you walked six blocks to the streetcar, you spoke to everybody in every house, or who's on the porch. But we didn't tend to do that here. It was just a different style of living; people did things differently. And I think we were more involved in our own personal things than the rest of the neighborhood.\n\n I went to work every day, I went home. My days were filled up. It was a different thing than when I had grown up. I had been a child in school. So it was a whole different thing. And now married, and so I can't say it's just the location. My life had changed from being—I went from being high school, college, and then a married woman, so all of those changes were taking place. But I don't blame it so much, or say, "Oh, gosh, it was because I was in a different city." I think it's like traveling other places. We live differently in different places, but it's not a negative. You adapt.

[Assistant] What made you choose pharmacy at first when you went away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was raised by a single parent. My mother was my greatest role model. She still is. My mother always told me—I can hear her tapes being played in my mind forever. But my mother always told me, "You can be anything you want to be, but you have to work at it." She encouraged me daily. I'm so grateful that I had my mother as a mother. I have friends who feel that way about my mother. There was always encouragement.

[Assistant] She encouraged everyone.

[User] She really did.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] But the bit of telling me, "You can be anything you want to. It doesn't matter what you look like, what your size is, what your color is. You can be anything you want to, but you do have to work at it." And I still believe that.

[Assistant] It's very true.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She really did.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] But the bit of telling me, "You can be anything you want to. It doesn't matter what you look like, what your size is, what your color is. You can be anything you want to, but you do have to work at it." And I still believe that.

[Assistant] It's very true.

[User] So she was my biggest cheerleader.

[Assistant] That's great. Were you good at math in high school? Was that something you were interested in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So to see her happy, to take a good grade home. But I did have a lot of trouble with having to stay after school because I sometimes talked, I expressed my opinion. I think it was called "talking back."

[Assistant] She encouraged you to be an independent thinker also, I'm sure.

[User] But not to be disrespectful, and I didn't talk back to be disrespectful, but if I had an opinion, I expressed it.

[Assistant] Were you an only child?

[User] No, I had an older brother. He was six years older, but being six years older and being a male, we were pretty much—you know, I can say I was pretty much raised alone, because by the time I was twelve, he was eighteen years old and on his own. So I was raised pretty much alone, as an only child. But no, I did have an older brother.

[Assistant] When you first came to Cleveland, you decided that school at that point was out of the question because it was too far away, and you said you just heard about the NACA, and read about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But not to be disrespectful, and I didn't talk back to be disrespectful, but if I had an opinion, I expressed it.

[Assistant] Were you an only child?

[User] No, I had an older brother. He was six years older, but being six years older and being a male, we were pretty much—you know, I can say I was pretty much raised alone, because by the time I was twelve, he was eighteen years old and on his own. So I was raised pretty much alone, as an only child. But no, I did have an older brother.

[Assistant] When you first came to Cleveland, you decided that school at that point was out of the question because it was too far away, and you said you just heard about the NACA, and read about it.

[User] I read about it. There was an article in the local paper.

[Assistant] And decided it sounded like an interesting job. Did you have any expectations about that job already, other than what was in the article, or when they interviewed you or told you about the job, when you actually started work, were you surprised at what you were doing? I guess, like we were talking about before we started, how no one really knows that NASA or NACA was here, it was all—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had an older brother. He was six years older, but being six years older and being a male, we were pretty much—you know, I can say I was pretty much raised alone, because by the time I was twelve, he was eighteen years old and on his own. So I was raised pretty much alone, as an only child. But no, I did have an older brother.

[Assistant] When you first came to Cleveland, you decided that school at that point was out of the question because it was too far away, and you said you just heard about the NACA, and read about it.

[User] I read about it. There was an article in the local paper.

[Assistant] And decided it sounded like an interesting job. Did you have any expectations about that job already, other than what was in the article, or when they interviewed you or told you about the job, when you actually started work, were you surprised at what you were doing? I guess, like we were talking about before we started, how no one really knows that NASA or NACA was here, it was all—

[User] Well, I didn't know that it was here until I read the—I'd never heard of it until I read the article, but it was such an article that the things that were described, the work that was being done by those sisters, those twin sisters, those computers, the people called computers, it was very interesting to me. It was something that I had a real interest in doing, and I was not disappointed when I came out, when I had the interview, and when I started to work. I just thoroughly enjoyed it and I enjoyed my career here at NASA, at NACA, and to see it become what we were, and the many changes that were made. But no, the job as I saw it, the work, as I encountered, there were no disappointments, ever.

[Assistant] You were a computer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I read about it. There was an article in the local paper.

[Assistant] And decided it sounded like an interesting job. Did you have any expectations about that job already, other than what was in the article, or when they interviewed you or told you about the job, when you actually started work, were you surprised at what you were doing? I guess, like we were talking about before we started, how no one really knows that NASA or NACA was here, it was all—

[User] Well, I didn't know that it was here until I read the—I'd never heard of it until I read the article, but it was such an article that the things that were described, the work that was being done by those sisters, those twin sisters, those computers, the people called computers, it was very interesting to me. It was something that I had a real interest in doing, and I was not disappointed when I came out, when I had the interview, and when I started to work. I just thoroughly enjoyed it and I enjoyed my career here at NASA, at NACA, and to see it become what we were, and the many changes that were made. But no, the job as I saw it, the work, as I encountered, there were no disappointments, ever.

[Assistant] You were a computer?

[User] I was a computer at first.

[Assistant] Can you describe what your job was when you first started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Propulsion lab, at the time, and then someone by the name of George [W.] Lewis, I think he was one of the first directors or the first director, and it was eventually named for him. I must add, one of the great things about working here at NACA and NASA was the depth of talent that you were surrounded with, and that was not just the scientific talent, but it's just a broad spectrum. Being so self-contained, we were like our own little world, because we had our own print shop, our own photographers. Of course, our security forces. We had our own firemen. Anything we wanted, we could pull on it from right inside. It was like our own city. There are quite few acres out here. It's a large facility, but if you drive down the main road, you just don't realize it.

[Assistant] If you land, it's hard to miss it because of the hangar. That's the first thing I noticed when I landed, was the hangar.

[User] Yes. We used to have our own planes here, too. We did. But being right adjacent to Hopkins Airport makes it real convenient for the location of where we are located. So it's an ideal location also, as you can tell.

[Assistant] It's very convenient. You mentioned your supervisor. Who was your supervisor when you first started, do you remember?

[User] Christine Truax. Christine Truax was my first supervisor, back in 1955. Yes, I do remember that.

[Assistant] Was there a large group of computers or were you a relatively small group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We used to have our own planes here, too. We did. But being right adjacent to Hopkins Airport makes it real convenient for the location of where we are located. So it's an ideal location also, as you can tell.

[Assistant] It's very convenient. You mentioned your supervisor. Who was your supervisor when you first started, do you remember?

[User] Christine Truax. Christine Truax was my first supervisor, back in 1955. Yes, I do remember that.

[Assistant] Was there a large group of computers or were you a relatively small group?

[User] Actually, there were three different groups throughout the lab. We were in Building 49. There was another group, I think, in the building that we called the 8 x 6 [Supersonic Wind Tunnel], and Christine had two groups. Christine had another group of computers located in, oh, gosh, I think it was called CNT or ERB [Engine Research Building]. There were a total of three groups of computers, people computers, throughout the lab at the time, and all doing very similar work, but on different projects.\n\n And, as I said, besides that, we'd get the data, we'd plot the data by hand or we'd read strip charts that have come off equipment. There was just the various things that we did. We were called computers, officially, until the machines started to come in. So to distinguish us from the machines, the machines were the computers and we were given titles as mathematics technicians or mathematicians. And I don't remember the year that happened or the years.

[Assistant] It was a gradual process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Christine Truax. Christine Truax was my first supervisor, back in 1955. Yes, I do remember that.

[Assistant] Was there a large group of computers or were you a relatively small group?

[User] Actually, there were three different groups throughout the lab. We were in Building 49. There was another group, I think, in the building that we called the 8 x 6 [Supersonic Wind Tunnel], and Christine had two groups. Christine had another group of computers located in, oh, gosh, I think it was called CNT or ERB [Engine Research Building]. There were a total of three groups of computers, people computers, throughout the lab at the time, and all doing very similar work, but on different projects.\n\n And, as I said, besides that, we'd get the data, we'd plot the data by hand or we'd read strip charts that have come off equipment. There was just the various things that we did. We were called computers, officially, until the machines started to come in. So to distinguish us from the machines, the machines were the computers and we were given titles as mathematics technicians or mathematicians. And I don't remember the year that happened or the years.

[Assistant] It was a gradual process.

[User] We were not the only computers in the world. Recently, I was on a program with some people from, I think they were from Pennsylvania someplace. But these women had been computers some place in Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] As part of this project, we've interviewed some ladies at Dryden [Flight Research Center]—that were computers at Dryden, from [Edwards] California.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, there were three different groups throughout the lab. We were in Building 49. There was another group, I think, in the building that we called the 8 x 6 [Supersonic Wind Tunnel], and Christine had two groups. Christine had another group of computers located in, oh, gosh, I think it was called CNT or ERB [Engine Research Building]. There were a total of three groups of computers, people computers, throughout the lab at the time, and all doing very similar work, but on different projects.\n\n And, as I said, besides that, we'd get the data, we'd plot the data by hand or we'd read strip charts that have come off equipment. There was just the various things that we did. We were called computers, officially, until the machines started to come in. So to distinguish us from the machines, the machines were the computers and we were given titles as mathematics technicians or mathematicians. And I don't remember the year that happened or the years.

[Assistant] It was a gradual process.

[User] We were not the only computers in the world. Recently, I was on a program with some people from, I think they were from Pennsylvania someplace. But these women had been computers some place in Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] As part of this project, we've interviewed some ladies at Dryden [Flight Research Center]—that were computers at Dryden, from [Edwards] California.

[User] Well, they were in Pennsylvania. Well, our worlds are only so big. The only computers I knew of were the ones here, until last year. I met these women who had been computers.

[Assistant] When you were working, did you work as a team with the engineer or the scientist doing the work? Did you work usually on a project specifically with them, throughout that project, or was it just, whenever they needed something, they'd send it in to like a pool, and you would work on different things on different days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we know we have to live. I'm still around. I'm enjoying myself.

[Assistant] That's right. And you put in a lot of years here, too.

[User] Yes, I was here for thirty-four years. And as I said, I have more good memories than bad, but I don't forget the real life, what really happened. Because in keeping with that, in later years, they started to interview—I guess they had personnel interviewing some of the minority workers, and because a group had gone together to talk to management about what the feelings were, but I didn't happen to be a part of the group. I just wasn't at that time. But I was the one that management chose to have them interview, and I mentioned the story of being cut out of the picture, and the interviewer said to me, about that picture-cutting incident, he says, "Well, Annie, at that time there was no one to complain to."

[Assistant] Yes, that's true. At that time there really wasn't.

[User] Well, that's too bad, but the problem is, some of those people stayed around for a long time, and some of their behavior was passed on to other people. I think of the poem, "Mother to Son." [by Langston Hughes] "Life for me ain't been no crystal stair” but you got to keep struggling. You keep going because you want to.

[Assistant] During that early time, when you first started working, and then in 1957, of course, Sputnik went up, and the whole emphasis changed in this country and they formed NASA. Here, at the Research Center, you went under NASA. Was there a general feeling of, now we've got to head down this path, we're going into space, we're going to be a part of that? How did it affect the people here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was here for thirty-four years. And as I said, I have more good memories than bad, but I don't forget the real life, what really happened. Because in keeping with that, in later years, they started to interview—I guess they had personnel interviewing some of the minority workers, and because a group had gone together to talk to management about what the feelings were, but I didn't happen to be a part of the group. I just wasn't at that time. But I was the one that management chose to have them interview, and I mentioned the story of being cut out of the picture, and the interviewer said to me, about that picture-cutting incident, he says, "Well, Annie, at that time there was no one to complain to."

[Assistant] Yes, that's true. At that time there really wasn't.

[User] Well, that's too bad, but the problem is, some of those people stayed around for a long time, and some of their behavior was passed on to other people. I think of the poem, "Mother to Son." [by Langston Hughes] "Life for me ain't been no crystal stair” but you got to keep struggling. You keep going because you want to.

[Assistant] During that early time, when you first started working, and then in 1957, of course, Sputnik went up, and the whole emphasis changed in this country and they formed NASA. Here, at the Research Center, you went under NASA. Was there a general feeling of, now we've got to head down this path, we're going into space, we're going to be a part of that? How did it affect the people here?

[User] I think we were proud and we still are. I say "we." I still talk in the present. I retired a few years ago.

[Assistant] You're still part of it, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's too bad, but the problem is, some of those people stayed around for a long time, and some of their behavior was passed on to other people. I think of the poem, "Mother to Son." [by Langston Hughes] "Life for me ain't been no crystal stair” but you got to keep struggling. You keep going because you want to.

[Assistant] During that early time, when you first started working, and then in 1957, of course, Sputnik went up, and the whole emphasis changed in this country and they formed NASA. Here, at the Research Center, you went under NASA. Was there a general feeling of, now we've got to head down this path, we're going into space, we're going to be a part of that? How did it affect the people here?

[User] I think we were proud and we still are. I say "we." I still talk in the present. I retired a few years ago.

[Assistant] You're still part of it, though.

[User] There was a real pride in being able to have talent, resources, and knowing that we could get in here and really, really do something great. I mean, the work that we had been doing here had been not known. Not publicly, but there was a lot of research going on with the quiet, the jet, the pollution. A lot of stuff was going on, but when we became a part of the space effort, there was a real jump in there and we're going to do it.\n\n Remember what I said earlier about teamwork? I think as a whole, it was "Jump in there. We can do it." And it's, again, part of that being so grateful to have seen all the things we can do, and the changes, from where we went and where we were as to where we went.

[Assistant] Did you see a rise in the number of people working here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were proud and we still are. I say "we." I still talk in the present. I retired a few years ago.

[Assistant] You're still part of it, though.

[User] There was a real pride in being able to have talent, resources, and knowing that we could get in here and really, really do something great. I mean, the work that we had been doing here had been not known. Not publicly, but there was a lot of research going on with the quiet, the jet, the pollution. A lot of stuff was going on, but when we became a part of the space effort, there was a real jump in there and we're going to do it.\n\n Remember what I said earlier about teamwork? I think as a whole, it was "Jump in there. We can do it." And it's, again, part of that being so grateful to have seen all the things we can do, and the changes, from where we went and where we were as to where we went.

[Assistant] Did you see a rise in the number of people working here?

[User] Oh, we had a great surge in employment. A lot of people were hired to come in. Not just the fresh out of college, but a lot of people from other companies who were already seasoned, and other companies. So yes, our complement went up greatly. We may have gone up from, oh, gosh, maybe 2,500, 2,000-something, to maybe 5,000, at one time. We also have the Plum Brook facility, out in Sandusky [Ohio] where our nuclear reactor was. But yes, employment went up greatly, and everyone pitches in, everyone does a lot.

[Assistant] Can you talk about some of those specific projects, maybe, that you were working on there in the late fifties, early sixties, when the space program was just taking off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh, it's been so long. I can't remember all that. [Laughter] Really, I have to really go back in my memory bank to say, "What did we work on?"\n\n I remember working on the simulator. We were simulating certain conditions for building the reactor out in Plum Brook, and that was, you know, how much cement do you need to pour, those kinds of things. That was in the late fifties. I remember working on that. If I'd known I had to remember this, I would have probably called up my memory bank last night.\n\n I think now I'm almost into the seventies. We had some tests going on with putting up tapes on a jet plane to record some of the ozone to see, and come back and analyze that kind of thing, you know, what damage we're doing to our ozone layer. During the later years, I was working in software engineering and we worked in an area called the launch vehicles. I've worked on several different things throughout the years here, but we would work on some of the launches. We'd do the Shuttle launches or a lot of the launches down at—we'd go down to [Cape] Canaveral [Florida] with some of the unmanned launches.

[Assistant] Did you work on any of the projects around the Centaur rockets?

[User] Yes, because I think that—I better not try and recall exactly, but I think Abe Silverstein brought that here?

[Assistant] That's what I found in the research, that Abe—

[User] Yes, Abe Silverstein brought that project here, and eventually we had a hand in working Centaur. That's after I had gone into the—oh, gosh, what group was I in then? Launch Vehicles group.

[Assistant] Well, President Kennedy, in 1961, made that commitment to go to the moon. Was there a great excitement here, after that announcement, knowing that you were working on—or, I believe he brought the Centaur here after that, but once that started coming in, knowing that those rockets were going to have something to do with those plans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Math, yes. Mathematics.

[Assistant] Which university?

[User] Cleveland State, in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Having the degree, did that affect your job in any way?

[User] Well, it was a strange thing, because I was considered a subprofessional without the degree, and then when I got the degree, in order to become a professional, I had to take more classes. It was someone's opinion. Because again, you're working with people who decide what should or should not be done. If there was someone who would have said, "Okay, you have your degree.” If you'd come in here as a new hire with a degree, you would be hired as a professional. You would be. You come in, you have a math degree, you're a professional. I was already here and they decided I needed X number of hours of training to be considered a professional. They really and truly did. That's what I meant about some of these things are subtle, but why would I need those extra hours? I have all of this experience, I now have the education, but the people in personnel, or in training, said, or someone said—I don't know who the powers-that-be were, but you've got to have X number of hours of training to be considered a professional. But it's okay. I took the courses. In fact, I went to Houston and took one. Yes, I think that one kind of—yes, I did.

[Assistant] And these were NASA-sponsored courses?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cleveland State, in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Having the degree, did that affect your job in any way?

[User] Well, it was a strange thing, because I was considered a subprofessional without the degree, and then when I got the degree, in order to become a professional, I had to take more classes. It was someone's opinion. Because again, you're working with people who decide what should or should not be done. If there was someone who would have said, "Okay, you have your degree.” If you'd come in here as a new hire with a degree, you would be hired as a professional. You would be. You come in, you have a math degree, you're a professional. I was already here and they decided I needed X number of hours of training to be considered a professional. They really and truly did. That's what I meant about some of these things are subtle, but why would I need those extra hours? I have all of this experience, I now have the education, but the people in personnel, or in training, said, or someone said—I don't know who the powers-that-be were, but you've got to have X number of hours of training to be considered a professional. But it's okay. I took the courses. In fact, I went to Houston and took one. Yes, I think that one kind of—yes, I did.

[Assistant] And these were NASA-sponsored courses?

[User] Well, I chose that course. They paid for it. I paid for my undergraduate education, and I don't even need to get into that. I paid for my own education.

[Assistant] Did they pay for anybody's education? Was that a program in place at that time, that they would pay for people to go back to school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was programming in FORTRAN. That's the language that we used when we did the code, yes. That was the FORTRAN programming, and that I used for years and years and years. I guess the COBAL was more our business side, of the people who did the business side of it. But the scientific world out here, we used mostly FORTRAN. I know there are a lot of different ones now that are used, but I didn't get into those. They came kind of after I had left. But FORTRAN was the one that we used mostly.

[Assistant] In some of the research, I saw that one of your assignments included studies to determine the life and use of storage batteries. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[User] Yes. We have a battery lab here where they did do research on batteries, and I was doing some of the computations with that. And batteries, like to use in a battery-powered vehicle, we would run studies on that. In fact, we used to have a little battery-powered car that they drove around. But we did research on that also, the computations.

[Assistant] Well, now some of these vehicles are starting to appear in the real world, the ones that are the, what do they call them, hybrids?

[User] Hybrids. There's one—I know someone here has one. I think it's a Honda. He has a Honda. He works out here.

[Assistant] Chrysler is working on one, I know, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We have a battery lab here where they did do research on batteries, and I was doing some of the computations with that. And batteries, like to use in a battery-powered vehicle, we would run studies on that. In fact, we used to have a little battery-powered car that they drove around. But we did research on that also, the computations.

[Assistant] Well, now some of these vehicles are starting to appear in the real world, the ones that are the, what do they call them, hybrids?

[User] Hybrids. There's one—I know someone here has one. I think it's a Honda. He has a Honda. He works out here.

[Assistant] Chrysler is working on one, I know, too.

[User] Yes, he does have one.

[Assistant] How does that make you feel? I mean, because you were working on that project, so that was probably from the early work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I mean, I did more—I can remember checking someone's technical report when I wasn't supposed to, but I did not do a lot of report-writing. No, that was not a part of my—

[Assistant] Were you ever listed on any of them as contributor or author?

[User] I was listed on something years and years ago and I don't even remember the name of it.

[Assistant] We were talking about the reports and being listed as an author or not [before the break].

[User] I can't remember any specific ones, I really don't, because I didn't do a lot of report-writing.

[Assistant] I know while you were at Lewis—and it was, what, thirty-four years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was listed on something years and years ago and I don't even remember the name of it.

[Assistant] We were talking about the reports and being listed as an author or not [before the break].

[User] I can't remember any specific ones, I really don't, because I didn't do a lot of report-writing.

[Assistant] I know while you were at Lewis—and it was, what, thirty-four years?

[User] Thirty-four years.

[Assistant] There was a lot of changes and we talked a little bit about the technology, the social changes, as far as the family feeling at the beginning and the group activities that you were involved in. The last years you were there, were those kind of things going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember any specific ones, I really don't, because I didn't do a lot of report-writing.

[Assistant] I know while you were at Lewis—and it was, what, thirty-four years?

[User] Thirty-four years.

[Assistant] There was a lot of changes and we talked a little bit about the technology, the social changes, as far as the family feeling at the beginning and the group activities that you were involved in. The last years you were there, were those kind of things going on?

[User] There were still the same kinds of things. There were still the family, the employees' picnics, and the division picnics. Those things were still going on when I left, and before I left here, one of the things I had done is, I had started to ski, and we formed a ski club. The club is still here, still going strong, and that became like one of the big social outlets. We started it as a ski club, but we learned that we had so much fun doing it—we started with eight people in January of [19] '79 and by February we were up to twenty, and within a couple of years, we were up to 200. But we did more than just ski, because someone said, oh, let's go—in the summertime, let's go canoeing or let's go whitewater rafting. We even took city trips to different places in the summertime, so you didn't have to be a skier to enjoy the club, and I think people joined it for the social bit. But we have all kinds of activities. They always had all kinds. The chess club, the camera club. I guess, the latest I heard of out here now was the hot pepper club. I don't know exactly what's going on now, but when I left here there was still the different activities, where people could, of like-minded things, they could get together and do them.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of the departments you worked in. Did you move to different departments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I started, I was in the Computer Services Division, when I started here in 1955. In the late seventies, I moved over to the Energy Directorate, and then somewhere in the eighties is when I went to Launch Vehicles. Then we joined the Engineering Directorate, that is where I was when I retired. I was in different buildings. I guess I just mentioned about four different groups.

[Assistant] Did you move for promotions or were there reorganizations going on?

[User] When I got my degree, I moved into the Energy Directorate. It was either move or leave, and I really was on my way leaving because they told me there was absolutely no place I could go and I was going to go elsewhere, and then I was asked to interview with someone in the Energy Directorate, and I chose to go there. When I moved again, it was because they were looking for more people in the Launch Vehicles Group. And actually, that's the only other one I went to. The name changed on that from Launch Vehicles to Engineering Directorate. But no, I did not go because there were promotions. I, personally, I think, only made those three changes, because the promotions just weren't always there. They just didn't exist. I would really have loved to have moved for promotions, but that's not the way it really was.

[Assistant] Do you feel like any of it was related to the field you were in, or do you feel it was more a race or sex issue?

[User] Well, let's put it this way. I don't think it was the field I was in. I guess I just didn't fit someone's requirements.

[Assistant] Well, you were working in a field that wasn't traditionally a female—I think the computers, traditionally, were female, which I find interesting, because math and science isn't something that girls were supposed to be good in, but the field itself was more of a female-type field. Were there other men working with you in—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let's put it this way. I don't think it was the field I was in. I guess I just didn't fit someone's requirements.

[Assistant] Well, you were working in a field that wasn't traditionally a female—I think the computers, traditionally, were female, which I find interesting, because math and science isn't something that girls were supposed to be good in, but the field itself was more of a female-type field. Were there other men working with you in—

[User] In the beginning, when I started, in my group, there was one male, but in the other groups, there may have been males already. And as the time went on, lots and lots of males came into the field. I don't know why. I will tell you, I thought maybe it was because it was a tedious-type work. It was repetitious in the beginning, the work that we did. When you are recording numbers and doing the same thing over and over again, that may have been considered too repetitious for a man to do. Once we started into programming code, more and more men came into the field. Maybe it was because it was repetitious, and someone years and years and years ago had said women are good at repetitious or tedious stuff.

[Assistant] Attention to detail.

[User] But men did get into a lot. There are a lot of men in the field now, but they aren't called computers, either. But there are a lot of men doing it now.

[Assistant] What do you feel like was your most challenging project that you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now? I don't know. I don't know because I never worked for anyone else. It's difficult to say what would have been if you weren't really there. But I think even with the federal government out at NACA, women were placed in computing division or even—I remember someone, I think, who had a degree in accounting, who may have been put in clerical work. Remember, we're still dealing with people who have certain perceptions as to where women ought to be. Nothing was given to minorities or women. It took some fighting to get that equal opportunity and we're still fighting today. Of course, you know that. So I can't say what would have been if I'd gone to work for private industry. I do not know. Well, I'll never know. I don't think I'm going to work there.

[Assistant] I wouldn't if I were you.

[User] I don't fool myself and say, "Oh, gosh, I worked for the government." I mentioned earlier about one of the things that several of us thought about the government, that you couldn't be fired from the government. I've heard that expression for years and years. "You can't be fired from the government." Well, they may call it a reduction in force, but those people were let go. The results were the same, as if you say "You're fired" or you're going to be gently escorted out. You're out of a job. And that surprised a lot of us, back in the seventies. We just didn't know that could happen, but we found out, yes, it can happen. I still don't know why or how the people were chosen. I guess I feel differently that—I can't speak that I felt that, oh, gosh, I had better chances here than I would there. I do not know.

[Assistant] When you speak to other groups or when you were doing college recruiting, you were encouraging other people to choose your field? Is that something you would still do, or what would you tell people?

[User] When I went recruiting it was really for engineers.

[Assistant] Was it? Really?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would suggest that you take any possible courses, math courses, that are being offered, at the earliest opportunity, if you have a chance. If they're being offered in elementary school, whatever they are, start then, and just take whatever is available. Don't give up on it. Just stick with it. Don't listen to people who always tell you it's hard, and walk away from it. And I think we do make that mistake sometimes, listening to someone who says, "Oh, math is so hard," and maybe you won't even attempt it. For perhaps it won't be that hard for you, if you look into it. And they could be telling you that a foreign language is too hard, and maybe if you tried it, you could accomplish what you wanted to. That is kind of with anything you want to do, not just one field. Investigate, and then make your own decision. That would be my advice.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of the committees and organizations. You were an Equal Employment Opportunity counselor?

[User] Yes, EEO counselor.

[Assistant] Any other thing? The ski club, you mentioned you were a part of that.

[User] I'm one of the founders of our ski club. I was the first president out here. As I said, I was in the Speakers Bureau. You know, you do all those other little things. There's a Suggestion Awards Committee and all. There's just a bunch of little things you do through the years. They may not show up on a resume, but at the time I think they were meaningful, they were helpful. Again, we were helping people get an award for some suggestion they had made. We had a running club out here. I was also a part of the running club at one time. I used to be a runner. The work is fine, but I think the social bit is also that you're able to socialize with your coworkers. Not that you have to, but it's nice to be able to, if you so choose.

[Assistant] It builds that team feeling, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I used to run. I do play tennis and I do golf. I do lots of things, none of them well.

[Assistant] But you have a good time.

[User] I do. I have a good time. And I think part of it is the people. Now, the running was a very alone-type thing. That, I could do alone and enjoy it, but I enjoy golfing. I enjoy being with other people. I enjoy doing things with people, whether it's golfing or going out to dinner. It's just that I like to do things with people. I have never been bored in retirement, and there's never a day that I say, "I wonder what I can do." There are always more opportunities that I can take advantage of, and I like it that way.

[Assistant] Are you still involved in any tutoring or anything of that sort?

[User] Only if they catch me. Actually, when I met those other computers, it was because I went out to do a program at Mills College in Oakland [California]. So every so often, I'm still found. I don't tutor on a regular basis, but if someone asks me to come to a career day, I will do it, to talk to the students. I'm always willing to do it. So yes, I still will be involved, as long as I possibly can, and as long as anyone asks me to do it.

[Assistant] Are there any specific anecdotes or any incidents or happenings, than we haven't talked about, that happened while you were here at NASA that you want to mention, or anything you can think of offhand?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do. I have a good time. And I think part of it is the people. Now, the running was a very alone-type thing. That, I could do alone and enjoy it, but I enjoy golfing. I enjoy being with other people. I enjoy doing things with people, whether it's golfing or going out to dinner. It's just that I like to do things with people. I have never been bored in retirement, and there's never a day that I say, "I wonder what I can do." There are always more opportunities that I can take advantage of, and I like it that way.

[Assistant] Are you still involved in any tutoring or anything of that sort?

[User] Only if they catch me. Actually, when I met those other computers, it was because I went out to do a program at Mills College in Oakland [California]. So every so often, I'm still found. I don't tutor on a regular basis, but if someone asks me to come to a career day, I will do it, to talk to the students. I'm always willing to do it. So yes, I still will be involved, as long as I possibly can, and as long as anyone asks me to do it.

[Assistant] Are there any specific anecdotes or any incidents or happenings, than we haven't talked about, that happened while you were here at NASA that you want to mention, or anything you can think of offhand?

[User] Well, not off the top of my head. I just can't think of anything. It seems like I've said a lot.

[Assistant] We have. We've talked a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only if they catch me. Actually, when I met those other computers, it was because I went out to do a program at Mills College in Oakland [California]. So every so often, I'm still found. I don't tutor on a regular basis, but if someone asks me to come to a career day, I will do it, to talk to the students. I'm always willing to do it. So yes, I still will be involved, as long as I possibly can, and as long as anyone asks me to do it.

[Assistant] Are there any specific anecdotes or any incidents or happenings, than we haven't talked about, that happened while you were here at NASA that you want to mention, or anything you can think of offhand?

[User] Well, not off the top of my head. I just can't think of anything. It seems like I've said a lot.

[Assistant] We have. We've talked a lot.

[User] I can't think of just any specifics, but if they come up, I'll make a note of them, if I think of any.

[Assistant] Is there any topic that we didn't cover that you wanted to mention, about your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not off the top of my head. I just can't think of anything. It seems like I've said a lot.

[Assistant] We have. We've talked a lot.

[User] I can't think of just any specifics, but if they come up, I'll make a note of them, if I think of any.

[Assistant] Is there any topic that we didn't cover that you wanted to mention, about your work?

[User] I think we've pretty much covered most of them. Again, I will stress, for me, it was wonderful, it has been a wonderful time to be alive, to see all of the changes that took place in my work life, from where we were to where we went. And to still see changes. I'm just fascinated by all of the changes. We can fax this and email that and voice mail. I mean, it's just fascinating to me.

[Assistant] Are you keeping up with all the gadgets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't think of just any specifics, but if they come up, I'll make a note of them, if I think of any.

[Assistant] Is there any topic that we didn't cover that you wanted to mention, about your work?

[User] I think we've pretty much covered most of them. Again, I will stress, for me, it was wonderful, it has been a wonderful time to be alive, to see all of the changes that took place in my work life, from where we were to where we went. And to still see changes. I'm just fascinated by all of the changes. We can fax this and email that and voice mail. I mean, it's just fascinating to me.

[Assistant] Are you keeping up with all the gadgets?

[User] I'm not playing with them. I do what is necessary. I bought a computer because I thought I needed to, but I don't sit on it and play to see how much I can dig into. I don't have the time or the desire. I will get the email and I'll send it, but I don't play with it. It's not like this fascinating thing I play with. I'd much rather be out doing something actively, like on the golf course or doing other things. But some of the things I get are the necessities.

[Assistant] Well, I appreciate you talking to me today and sharing your career and your many accomplishments, and your well-rounded career at NASA. In closing, I just want to thank you again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we've pretty much covered most of them. Again, I will stress, for me, it was wonderful, it has been a wonderful time to be alive, to see all of the changes that took place in my work life, from where we were to where we went. And to still see changes. I'm just fascinated by all of the changes. We can fax this and email that and voice mail. I mean, it's just fascinating to me.

[Assistant] Are you keeping up with all the gadgets?

[User] I'm not playing with them. I do what is necessary. I bought a computer because I thought I needed to, but I don't sit on it and play to see how much I can dig into. I don't have the time or the desire. I will get the email and I'll send it, but I don't play with it. It's not like this fascinating thing I play with. I'd much rather be out doing something actively, like on the golf course or doing other things. But some of the things I get are the necessities.

[Assistant] Well, I appreciate you talking to me today and sharing your career and your many accomplishments, and your well-rounded career at NASA. In closing, I just want to thank you again.

[User] Well, I thank you for coming and taking the time to talk to me. I'm always willing to talk, if anyone wants to hear anything I have to say.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly enjoyed it. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm perfectly okay. Because, serious now, I would really, really like to see somebody—I don't know how it would happen—write a book to say how it really was. The personalities—there were fights, there were egos. There still are. People that didn't agree with each other, people that didn't get along with each other. There was shenanigans going on as to how they [worked together]. I mean, if somebody could write that story, I would even buy the book.\n\n But all this stuff, “Everything went beautiful, and Joe did this and Bill did that,” that's not real. But it's history, so I don't mean to be too flippant about it.

[Assistant] We certainly get a sense of people's personalities from talking to those people themselves, but also from the people who work with them.

[User] That's, I guess, what struck me as good about this project, that it's people talking now and not writing. When you write, it's quite a bit different. When you talk, you can see through all the baloney. I hope you're seeing through mine.

[Assistant] We often have to remind people that when they look at their transcript that that's how you talk and not how you write.

[User] Yes, I suppose, you know, you've done this for a while now. I suppose you get some pretty serious guys, don't you, that just talk about [it] in a [formal kind of way]. If you were talking to Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, for instance. I love Gene. He's a brilliant guy, but “General Patton” we used to call him. He had these silver guns on his—are we off?

[Assistant]
No, we're still on. I did want to, however, give Kirk and Carol a chance to ask any questions if they did, because I didn't have anymore. Kirk?

There is one question, sir. During the recovery process of the Mercury capsule, there was a debate between the resin shield for the heat shield—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's, I guess, what struck me as good about this project, that it's people talking now and not writing. When you write, it's quite a bit different. When you talk, you can see through all the baloney. I hope you're seeing through mine.

[Assistant] We often have to remind people that when they look at their transcript that that's how you talk and not how you write.

[User] Yes, I suppose, you know, you've done this for a while now. I suppose you get some pretty serious guys, don't you, that just talk about [it] in a [formal kind of way]. If you were talking to Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, for instance. I love Gene. He's a brilliant guy, but “General Patton” we used to call him. He had these silver guns on his—are we off?

[Assistant]
No, we're still on. I did want to, however, give Kirk and Carol a chance to ask any questions if they did, because I didn't have anymore. Kirk?

There is one question, sir. During the recovery process of the Mercury capsule, there was a debate between the resin shield for the heat shield—

[User] Beryllium?

[Assistant] Yes. And I was sort of curious if you were involved in that and what came of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK. Well, I was in college, and that was also a time in the history of the United States which certainly as somebody in college was paying attention to in terms of not only Kennedy and Kennedy had said in terms of doing something for others and for your country, but the civil rights movement was going strong.

[Assistant] Where were you in college?

[User] I was at Morningside College in Sioux City, Iowa. It's a Methodist school.

[Assistant] And what were you taking?

[User] I was studying sociology and psychology. Well, general liberal arts, actually, but sociology.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular career path in mind or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Morningside College in Sioux City, Iowa. It's a Methodist school.

[Assistant] And what were you taking?

[User] I was studying sociology and psychology. Well, general liberal arts, actually, but sociology.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular career path in mind or?

[User] At that time I was thinking social work, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And during college and even in high school, had you done any kind of volunteer work somewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was studying sociology and psychology. Well, general liberal arts, actually, but sociology.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular career path in mind or?

[User] At that time I was thinking social work, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And during college and even in high school, had you done any kind of volunteer work somewhere?

[User] Not really. I'd always been very involved in church, in the Methodist Church. And so there probably was some volunteer work involved there. But I grew up on a farm in northwest Iowa, and there wasn't much time for volunteer work. Wasn't much of a need for the volunteer work, because you were so busy.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about any travel during, right up through college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time I was thinking social work, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And during college and even in high school, had you done any kind of volunteer work somewhere?

[User] Not really. I'd always been very involved in church, in the Methodist Church. And so there probably was some volunteer work involved there. But I grew up on a farm in northwest Iowa, and there wasn't much time for volunteer work. Wasn't much of a need for the volunteer work, because you were so busy.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about any travel during, right up through college?

[User] Very little. Very little travel.

[Assistant] OK. And had you studied any other language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I'd always been very involved in church, in the Methodist Church. And so there probably was some volunteer work involved there. But I grew up on a farm in northwest Iowa, and there wasn't much time for volunteer work. Wasn't much of a need for the volunteer work, because you were so busy.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about any travel during, right up through college?

[User] Very little. Very little travel.

[Assistant] OK. And had you studied any other language?

[User] In college I studied Spanish, but at that time there was no language taught in the high school that I attended. Small town high school. And you know, you have to remember that was I graduated in '61 so that latter part of the fifties I was in high school. And again, I think that was true of many small towns at that time.

[Assistant] Sure. Do you recall when you first heard about the Peace Corps or how or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little. Very little travel.

[Assistant] OK. And had you studied any other language?

[User] In college I studied Spanish, but at that time there was no language taught in the high school that I attended. Small town high school. And you know, you have to remember that was I graduated in '61 so that latter part of the fifties I was in high school. And again, I think that was true of many small towns at that time.

[Assistant] Sure. Do you recall when you first heard about the Peace Corps or how or?

[User] I don't. I don't really remember. I just know that Kennedy was a great influence on me in terms of his person, his personage. And what I perceived at that point of his integrity and sincerity.

[Assistant] So as you are coming up to graduation, what year would be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In college I studied Spanish, but at that time there was no language taught in the high school that I attended. Small town high school. And you know, you have to remember that was I graduated in '61 so that latter part of the fifties I was in high school. And again, I think that was true of many small towns at that time.

[Assistant] Sure. Do you recall when you first heard about the Peace Corps or how or?

[User] I don't. I don't really remember. I just know that Kennedy was a great influence on me in terms of his person, his personage. And what I perceived at that point of his integrity and sincerity.

[Assistant] So as you are coming up to graduation, what year would be?

[User] '65. Graduated in May and went to the Peace Corps I think the next month, or the next month or so.

[Assistant] At what point did you decide that you were going to apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't. I don't really remember. I just know that Kennedy was a great influence on me in terms of his person, his personage. And what I perceived at that point of his integrity and sincerity.

[Assistant] So as you are coming up to graduation, what year would be?

[User] '65. Graduated in May and went to the Peace Corps I think the next month, or the next month or so.

[Assistant] At what point did you decide that you were going to apply?

[User] You know, I can't remember exactly when I applied.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I can't remember exactly when I applied.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application?

[User] Oh, yes, I remember the application, and I remember that this wasn't going to be a popular thing with my parents, but it'd been my dad. And I think it was the previous year, I just can't remember when, a group of students went from Morningside to the South to help register to vote. So and I did not go, but I wanted to go.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so it just seemed that as I got closer to thinking about graduation, what I wanted to do. This was, I just knew this was what I was going to do. And I knew it would be not popular because as my dad told me, I didn't send you to college to go off to some foreign country.

[Assistant] They didn't kind of picture you as sort of a missionary or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I remember the application, and I remember that this wasn't going to be a popular thing with my parents, but it'd been my dad. And I think it was the previous year, I just can't remember when, a group of students went from Morningside to the South to help register to vote. So and I did not go, but I wanted to go.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so it just seemed that as I got closer to thinking about graduation, what I wanted to do. This was, I just knew this was what I was going to do. And I knew it would be not popular because as my dad told me, I didn't send you to college to go off to some foreign country.

[Assistant] They didn't kind of picture you as sort of a missionary or?

[User] Uh, I don't think they would, even though I may have perceived myself in more in that light, particularly with my church background and service ideology. And because I did have that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah, not necessarily to proselytize, but to do service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so it just seemed that as I got closer to thinking about graduation, what I wanted to do. This was, I just knew this was what I was going to do. And I knew it would be not popular because as my dad told me, I didn't send you to college to go off to some foreign country.

[Assistant] They didn't kind of picture you as sort of a missionary or?

[User] Uh, I don't think they would, even though I may have perceived myself in more in that light, particularly with my church background and service ideology. And because I did have that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah, not necessarily to proselytize, but to do service.

[User] No. But to do good. Whatever a person of that age has a picture in their head, you know, that we're going to change the world. We're going to help the world.

[Assistant] How about you? Do you have any siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I don't think they would, even though I may have perceived myself in more in that light, particularly with my church background and service ideology. And because I did have that.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah, not necessarily to proselytize, but to do service.

[User] No. But to do good. Whatever a person of that age has a picture in their head, you know, that we're going to change the world. We're going to help the world.

[Assistant] How about you? Do you have any siblings?

[User] Yes, I was the oldest of four.

[Assistant] And what did the siblings think of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But to do good. Whatever a person of that age has a picture in their head, you know, that we're going to change the world. We're going to help the world.

[Assistant] How about you? Do you have any siblings?

[User] Yes, I was the oldest of four.

[Assistant] And what did the siblings think of this?

[User] I can't remember, except I would imagine they thought it was great.

[Assistant] And your friends, your college friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember, except I would imagine they thought it was great.

[Assistant] And your friends, your college friends?

[User] Um, I don't really have a perception of getting much feedback from them. This was kind of just something that whatever they thought, I was going to do. And yeah, I don't know that I was that strident about it. But now in hindsight, it was like my mind was made up. So I remember filling out the application. Probably it was just that. I don't know how quickly I could have gotten approved, but it seemed to me that it was that spring of '65, early, early '65, that I filled out the application.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In those days, maybe that was true.

[Assistant] I can't remember if they, do you remember taking a lengthy test as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't really have a perception of getting much feedback from them. This was kind of just something that whatever they thought, I was going to do. And yeah, I don't know that I was that strident about it. But now in hindsight, it was like my mind was made up. So I remember filling out the application. Probably it was just that. I don't know how quickly I could have gotten approved, but it seemed to me that it was that spring of '65, early, early '65, that I filled out the application.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In those days, maybe that was true.

[Assistant] I can't remember if they, do you remember taking a lengthy test as well?

[User] There was some sort of a test.

[Assistant] Sort of like almost like the graduate exam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In those days, maybe that was true.

[Assistant] I can't remember if they, do you remember taking a lengthy test as well?

[User] There was some sort of a test.

[Assistant] Sort of like almost like the graduate exam.

[User] Right. I probably saw, now that I'm thinking about it, probably saw, I'm not sure if there was a poster at college. I don't know. And then right there in Sioux City, you could go probably take the test or the entry thing or whatever it was. And I have a vague recollection of that. But it seemed like it was probably that spring that I.

[Assistant] So you weren't recruited. I mean, you knew of it and said, I want to do this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was some sort of a test.

[Assistant] Sort of like almost like the graduate exam.

[User] Right. I probably saw, now that I'm thinking about it, probably saw, I'm not sure if there was a poster at college. I don't know. And then right there in Sioux City, you could go probably take the test or the entry thing or whatever it was. And I have a vague recollection of that. But it seemed like it was probably that spring that I.

[Assistant] So you weren't recruited. I mean, you knew of it and said, I want to do this.

[User] Right. No one talked to me about it that I recall. I didn't talk to anybody that had come back because there weren't that many that had come back from the Peace Corps by that time, you know, early '65.

[Assistant] And then in the application, if you remember, there's a place where you indicate a preference for assignment. Do you recall it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I probably saw, now that I'm thinking about it, probably saw, I'm not sure if there was a poster at college. I don't know. And then right there in Sioux City, you could go probably take the test or the entry thing or whatever it was. And I have a vague recollection of that. But it seemed like it was probably that spring that I.

[Assistant] So you weren't recruited. I mean, you knew of it and said, I want to do this.

[User] Right. No one talked to me about it that I recall. I didn't talk to anybody that had come back because there weren't that many that had come back from the Peace Corps by that time, you know, early '65.

[Assistant] And then in the application, if you remember, there's a place where you indicate a preference for assignment. Do you recall it?

[User] Right. I think I indicated Spanish speaking if possible because that was the only language I spoke besides English or had any knowledge of besides English. And it seemed to me that I might have indicated South America or, you know, other places where people speak Spanish because besides South America. But yeah, seems like it.

[Assistant] And what happened next? You got a letter or telegram?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. No one talked to me about it that I recall. I didn't talk to anybody that had come back because there weren't that many that had come back from the Peace Corps by that time, you know, early '65.

[Assistant] And then in the application, if you remember, there's a place where you indicate a preference for assignment. Do you recall it?

[User] Right. I think I indicated Spanish speaking if possible because that was the only language I spoke besides English or had any knowledge of besides English. And it seemed to me that I might have indicated South America or, you know, other places where people speak Spanish because besides South America. But yeah, seems like it.

[Assistant] And what happened next? You got a letter or telegram?

[User] I got a letter that I was approved, that I was accepted, and can't remember at that point. I guess that must have been when they say. Well, I don't know if they had assigned me to a place right then. I can't remember, you know, whether you're going to the Dominican Republic or we'll get back to you. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Usually it's an invitation to training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got a letter that I was approved, that I was accepted, and can't remember at that point. I guess that must have been when they say. Well, I don't know if they had assigned me to a place right then. I can't remember, you know, whether you're going to the Dominican Republic or we'll get back to you. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Usually it's an invitation to training.

[User] Right. Well then, I probably got a letter that said that I would be assigned to the Dominican Republic, and I would be reporting to Philadelphia.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And then after a period of time there, a short period of time, let me think. Then I would go to the Dominican Republic and I was in Arecibo, south of Arecibo, in one of the camps there. That's where I trained.

[Assistant] So the training was actually in country then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well then, I probably got a letter that said that I would be assigned to the Dominican Republic, and I would be reporting to Philadelphia.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And then after a period of time there, a short period of time, let me think. Then I would go to the Dominican Republic and I was in Arecibo, south of Arecibo, in one of the camps there. That's where I trained.

[Assistant] So the training was actually in country then?

[User] It was in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, OK, OK. But you got the letter and you didn't have any hesitation about sending back and saying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then after a period of time there, a short period of time, let me think. Then I would go to the Dominican Republic and I was in Arecibo, south of Arecibo, in one of the camps there. That's where I trained.

[Assistant] So the training was actually in country then?

[User] It was in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, OK, OK. But you got the letter and you didn't have any hesitation about sending back and saying?

[User] Evidently, if I did, I overcame it because, you know, I'm sure it wasn't as black and white as I remember. No, because one always thinks, oh my gosh, is this what I need to do, should do, at this point? And so I.

[Assistant] And your parents weren't, you know, saying, go, go!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, OK, OK. But you got the letter and you didn't have any hesitation about sending back and saying?

[User] Evidently, if I did, I overcame it because, you know, I'm sure it wasn't as black and white as I remember. No, because one always thinks, oh my gosh, is this what I need to do, should do, at this point? And so I.

[Assistant] And your parents weren't, you know, saying, go, go!

[User] Oh, no, no. I don't even know, frankly, if when I told them. I can't remember when I told them I had been accepted.

[Assistant] I hope you said something before you left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Evidently, if I did, I overcame it because, you know, I'm sure it wasn't as black and white as I remember. No, because one always thinks, oh my gosh, is this what I need to do, should do, at this point? And so I.

[Assistant] And your parents weren't, you know, saying, go, go!

[User] Oh, no, no. I don't even know, frankly, if when I told them. I can't remember when I told them I had been accepted.

[Assistant] I hope you said something before you left.

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. I didn't say, by the way, folks, there's suitcases and I'm going to the Peace Corps. No, I can't. I can't recall when I told them, probably after I got accepted, you know, and then probably went home, you know, that spring and indicated that I had been accepted to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you were going to report to Philadelphia and that was after graduation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no. I don't even know, frankly, if when I told them. I can't remember when I told them I had been accepted.

[Assistant] I hope you said something before you left.

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. I didn't say, by the way, folks, there's suitcases and I'm going to the Peace Corps. No, I can't. I can't recall when I told them, probably after I got accepted, you know, and then probably went home, you know, that spring and indicated that I had been accepted to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you were going to report to Philadelphia and that was after graduation.

[User] Right. So I graduated in May.

[Assistant] And had you been given a shopping list and clothing to buy and everything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. I didn't say, by the way, folks, there's suitcases and I'm going to the Peace Corps. No, I can't. I can't recall when I told them, probably after I got accepted, you know, and then probably went home, you know, that spring and indicated that I had been accepted to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you were going to report to Philadelphia and that was after graduation.

[User] Right. So I graduated in May.

[Assistant] And had you been given a shopping list and clothing to buy and everything?

[User] It seems like I had, yes, seems like I had a long list of things and shots. Probably some, well, I can't remember, cause I got some shots in country.

[Assistant] Right. So you were sort of leaving with the expectation that you were not going to be back home for two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seems like I had, yes, seems like I had a long list of things and shots. Probably some, well, I can't remember, cause I got some shots in country.

[Assistant] Right. So you were sort of leaving with the expectation that you were not going to be back home for two years.

[User] Well, actually, strangely enough, in those days. I don't know if it had to do with the training in Puerto Rico or what, but we went to Philadelphia. We had the orientation there, got our eyes examined, glasses. If you know, a pair of Peace Corps glasses, if we needed them. Teeth perhaps. And then we were sent to Puerto Rico. And after our two and a half months there in this camp, we were able to come back home for two weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Ten days, whatever. And then, so we came back home for that two-week period and then we were sent to the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that period when you reported to Philadelphia. There must have a hotel or someplace where you stayed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, strangely enough, in those days. I don't know if it had to do with the training in Puerto Rico or what, but we went to Philadelphia. We had the orientation there, got our eyes examined, glasses. If you know, a pair of Peace Corps glasses, if we needed them. Teeth perhaps. And then we were sent to Puerto Rico. And after our two and a half months there in this camp, we were able to come back home for two weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Ten days, whatever. And then, so we came back home for that two-week period and then we were sent to the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that period when you reported to Philadelphia. There must have a hotel or someplace where you stayed.

[User] Peace Corps had a hotel there.

[Assistant] Do you recall approximately how many people were in the group at that point? Were they all for the Dominican Republic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ten days, whatever. And then, so we came back home for that two-week period and then we were sent to the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that period when you reported to Philadelphia. There must have a hotel or someplace where you stayed.

[User] Peace Corps had a hotel there.

[Assistant] Do you recall approximately how many people were in the group at that point? Were they all for the Dominican Republic?

[User] Probably everybody that came together at that point that I remember was. And I mean, there could have been 28, 30.

[Assistant] Do you recall your impression? I mean, now here you've made this decision and suddenly you're in the midst of 20 some other people who made the same decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps had a hotel there.

[Assistant] Do you recall approximately how many people were in the group at that point? Were they all for the Dominican Republic?

[User] Probably everybody that came together at that point that I remember was. And I mean, there could have been 28, 30.

[Assistant] Do you recall your impression? I mean, now here you've made this decision and suddenly you're in the midst of 20 some other people who made the same decision.

[User] Mm hmm. Well, certainly curious, you know, in terms of what is, you know, in a sense, I suppose, what has motivated these people. But mostly I was just excited, you know, and a new adventure that I never imagined that I would have. Here I am in Philadelphia. And of course, you get to absorb some of the history, you know, because I've never been there before. And everybody, we were, most people were young. We were, many of us just out of college. And also, you have to remember that was the Vietnam War was just ramping up. And so there were a couple of older men, but most of them were. Most of us, I think, were just out of college and, um, more males than females.

[Assistant] I think that was the beginning of the Vietnam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably everybody that came together at that point that I remember was. And I mean, there could have been 28, 30.

[Assistant] Do you recall your impression? I mean, now here you've made this decision and suddenly you're in the midst of 20 some other people who made the same decision.

[User] Mm hmm. Well, certainly curious, you know, in terms of what is, you know, in a sense, I suppose, what has motivated these people. But mostly I was just excited, you know, and a new adventure that I never imagined that I would have. Here I am in Philadelphia. And of course, you get to absorb some of the history, you know, because I've never been there before. And everybody, we were, most people were young. We were, many of us just out of college. And also, you have to remember that was the Vietnam War was just ramping up. And so there were a couple of older men, but most of them were. Most of us, I think, were just out of college and, um, more males than females.

[Assistant] I think that was the beginning of the Vietnam.

[User] Right. You know, and probably most of us are trying to figure out what community development meant, you know?

[Assistant] Do you recall if in Philadelphia you were told that you're going to train to go to Dominican Republic to do community development, or simply that you're going to train in a generic sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Well, certainly curious, you know, in terms of what is, you know, in a sense, I suppose, what has motivated these people. But mostly I was just excited, you know, and a new adventure that I never imagined that I would have. Here I am in Philadelphia. And of course, you get to absorb some of the history, you know, because I've never been there before. And everybody, we were, most people were young. We were, many of us just out of college. And also, you have to remember that was the Vietnam War was just ramping up. And so there were a couple of older men, but most of them were. Most of us, I think, were just out of college and, um, more males than females.

[Assistant] I think that was the beginning of the Vietnam.

[User] Right. You know, and probably most of us are trying to figure out what community development meant, you know?

[Assistant] Do you recall if in Philadelphia you were told that you're going to train to go to Dominican Republic to do community development, or simply that you're going to train in a generic sense?

[User] No, we knew that we were going to the Dominican Republic. Now whether or not we were told at that point that it was community, I'm almost sure that it was, that we were addressed as a community development group. Yeah, I'm almost sure of that.

[Assistant] Talk about the Arecibo, the Puerto Rican.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. You know, and probably most of us are trying to figure out what community development meant, you know?

[Assistant] Do you recall if in Philadelphia you were told that you're going to train to go to Dominican Republic to do community development, or simply that you're going to train in a generic sense?

[User] No, we knew that we were going to the Dominican Republic. Now whether or not we were told at that point that it was community, I'm almost sure that it was, that we were addressed as a community development group. Yeah, I'm almost sure of that.

[Assistant] Talk about the Arecibo, the Puerto Rican.

[User] Yes, Arecibo is on the coast, the northern coast. And their Camp Crozier and Camp Bradley were south of there. And my group was in Camp Bradley. And I'm not sure volunteers were even at Crozier at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Was the camp fairly new or had it been around a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we knew that we were going to the Dominican Republic. Now whether or not we were told at that point that it was community, I'm almost sure that it was, that we were addressed as a community development group. Yeah, I'm almost sure of that.

[Assistant] Talk about the Arecibo, the Puerto Rican.

[User] Yes, Arecibo is on the coast, the northern coast. And their Camp Crozier and Camp Bradley were south of there. And my group was in Camp Bradley. And I'm not sure volunteers were even at Crozier at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Was the camp fairly new or had it been around a while?

[User] Well, see, this was '65 and um, Sargent Shriver had instituted those Outward Bound programs because that's basically what those camps were. Outward Bound in terms of physical.

[Assistant] Did you know that, when you finally got to the camp, that that's what was going to happen? I mean, did people define the goals or the purpose?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Arecibo is on the coast, the northern coast. And their Camp Crozier and Camp Bradley were south of there. And my group was in Camp Bradley. And I'm not sure volunteers were even at Crozier at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Was the camp fairly new or had it been around a while?

[User] Well, see, this was '65 and um, Sargent Shriver had instituted those Outward Bound programs because that's basically what those camps were. Outward Bound in terms of physical.

[Assistant] Did you know that, when you finally got to the camp, that that's what was going to happen? I mean, did people define the goals or the purpose?

[User] And I just remember that when this got in our heads, my head and our heads, but that the type of training we would be undergoing was going to be physical. Because the idea was anything we could handle physically, we then would be able to handle psychologically anything we met. So if we could do it, you know, meet the physical challenges.

[Assistant] And was there language training as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, see, this was '65 and um, Sargent Shriver had instituted those Outward Bound programs because that's basically what those camps were. Outward Bound in terms of physical.

[Assistant] Did you know that, when you finally got to the camp, that that's what was going to happen? I mean, did people define the goals or the purpose?

[User] And I just remember that when this got in our heads, my head and our heads, but that the type of training we would be undergoing was going to be physical. Because the idea was anything we could handle physically, we then would be able to handle psychologically anything we met. So if we could do it, you know, meet the physical challenges.

[Assistant] And was there language training as well?

[User] Yes. And that was a main focus.

[Assistant] How was that organized, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I just remember that when this got in our heads, my head and our heads, but that the type of training we would be undergoing was going to be physical. Because the idea was anything we could handle physically, we then would be able to handle psychologically anything we met. So if we could do it, you know, meet the physical challenges.

[Assistant] And was there language training as well?

[User] Yes. And that was a main focus.

[Assistant] How was that organized, do you recall?

[User] We must have taken either oral and written language tests or maybe based upon what we had reported we had studied, but we were divided into groups that had common knowledge of the language. So that there were some that were more advanced.

[Assistant] And so how many hours a day with language, was it every morning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And that was a main focus.

[Assistant] How was that organized, do you recall?

[User] We must have taken either oral and written language tests or maybe based upon what we had reported we had studied, but we were divided into groups that had common knowledge of the language. So that there were some that were more advanced.

[Assistant] And so how many hours a day with language, was it every morning?

[User] Oh yeah, it was every day, and it probably was at least three hours a day. But that's a guess. I don't know, details escape me at this point.

[Assistant] Do you recall if anyone said that your ability to learn the language would determine whether you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We must have taken either oral and written language tests or maybe based upon what we had reported we had studied, but we were divided into groups that had common knowledge of the language. So that there were some that were more advanced.

[Assistant] And so how many hours a day with language, was it every morning?

[User] Oh yeah, it was every day, and it probably was at least three hours a day. But that's a guess. I don't know, details escape me at this point.

[Assistant] Do you recall if anyone said that your ability to learn the language would determine whether you went?

[User] Hmm. Not really. Not really. I suppose there was that sense. I mean, my gosh, here we are fresh from college. We knew we needed to communicate in some manner, I mean, obviously. And we knew that the last two weeks of training, we were going to be living with a Puerto Rican family that didn't speak English. And so, you know, we had some reason to want to learn the language, but everybody's different. And in the desire to learn a language doesn't always mean that you're going to be able to learn.

[Assistant] How long was the first phase, before you went out for the family stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, it was every day, and it probably was at least three hours a day. But that's a guess. I don't know, details escape me at this point.

[Assistant] Do you recall if anyone said that your ability to learn the language would determine whether you went?

[User] Hmm. Not really. Not really. I suppose there was that sense. I mean, my gosh, here we are fresh from college. We knew we needed to communicate in some manner, I mean, obviously. And we knew that the last two weeks of training, we were going to be living with a Puerto Rican family that didn't speak English. And so, you know, we had some reason to want to learn the language, but everybody's different. And in the desire to learn a language doesn't always mean that you're going to be able to learn.

[Assistant] How long was the first phase, before you went out for the family stay?

[User] Oh, we were in camp probably two months.

[Assistant] Oh, that long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Not really. Not really. I suppose there was that sense. I mean, my gosh, here we are fresh from college. We knew we needed to communicate in some manner, I mean, obviously. And we knew that the last two weeks of training, we were going to be living with a Puerto Rican family that didn't speak English. And so, you know, we had some reason to want to learn the language, but everybody's different. And in the desire to learn a language doesn't always mean that you're going to be able to learn.

[Assistant] How long was the first phase, before you went out for the family stay?

[User] Oh, we were in camp probably two months.

[Assistant] Oh, that long?

[User] Yeah. Before we were. It seemed to me that the last thing we did, but I could be wrong. Last thing we did was to spend this week, two weeks, two weeks with, maybe it wasn't two weeks, a week with this family.

[Assistant] Yeah. During the first phase, what else did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we were in camp probably two months.

[Assistant] Oh, that long?

[User] Yeah. Before we were. It seemed to me that the last thing we did, but I could be wrong. Last thing we did was to spend this week, two weeks, two weeks with, maybe it wasn't two weeks, a week with this family.

[Assistant] Yeah. During the first phase, what else did you do?

[User] Well, we had projects there at the camp. One group had raised chickens. And I can't for the life of me remember what my group did, but we weren't in charge of chickens. It may come to me as I think about it. We presented demonstrations on food, how to use powdered milk, for example, how to make useful things, maybe sewing, that sort of thing. We were supposed to do this in Spanish, so as time went on and it wasn't the first week, of course, but as time went on, we had little classes and we were in charge of presenting something.

[Assistant] So you'd work in small groups and you'd have to get up and do a presentation.