[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did a lot there because at night we would sit around. We didn't have TV, we didn't have electric. So you'd sit around in somebody's home and, you know, talk about international affairs, what was happening in the U.S. We were landing in Vietnam then, 1965, '66. Everyone that was able to save up had a radio, battery operated, and they all had shortwave on them. So they were listening to Radio Moscow, Radio Havana, Radio Netherlands, the BBC, the Voice of America. And the average citizen there, even though he might not know how to read and write, was very up on world affairs and knew what was happening. It was a shame to come home and see how American citizens were so ill informed about what was going on in the world. So I think that was very successful.

[Assistant] Okay, and the third goal is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans.

[User] Ever since I've come home, I've tried to let everybody know, friends, neighbors, family, about what the rest of the world was like, and Honduras. After I returned home in 1967, I went back to Honduras for three months in 1968 to the same site. Went again in 1970, 1973, 1976, and then had a hiatus until February of this year, 2008, and went to see my old village again. And interestingly enough, the Catholic church of West Bend, which is about 20 miles from where I lived, is linked up with the Catholic church in Taulabé, where I had lived. And I'm associated with that group now. And we this year have 45 young men and women in Taulabé, Honduras, in scholarships to go to high school.

[Assistant] That's good. Of course, yeah, you kind of alluded to this, but have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and contact with the people?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It sounds like you did early and then you came back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ever since I've come home, I've tried to let everybody know, friends, neighbors, family, about what the rest of the world was like, and Honduras. After I returned home in 1967, I went back to Honduras for three months in 1968 to the same site. Went again in 1970, 1973, 1976, and then had a hiatus until February of this year, 2008, and went to see my old village again. And interestingly enough, the Catholic church of West Bend, which is about 20 miles from where I lived, is linked up with the Catholic church in Taulabé, where I had lived. And I'm associated with that group now. And we this year have 45 young men and women in Taulabé, Honduras, in scholarships to go to high school.

[Assistant] That's good. Of course, yeah, you kind of alluded to this, but have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and contact with the people?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It sounds like you did early and then you came back.

[User] Yes, and it's still on ongoing. Hopefully I'll go back there this next winter or next summer. In fact, six individuals from Taulabé were up here middle of last month and a husband and wife stayed with us for six days. And I had known her in 1966. I knew him a little bit in 1967, just before I left. So we have a lot of things in, in common.

[Assistant] Okay, well, and have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement since those days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It sounds like you did early and then you came back.

[User] Yes, and it's still on ongoing. Hopefully I'll go back there this next winter or next summer. In fact, six individuals from Taulabé were up here middle of last month and a husband and wife stayed with us for six days. And I had known her in 1966. I knew him a little bit in 1967, just before I left. So we have a lot of things in, in common.

[Assistant] Okay, well, and have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement since those days?

[User] I'm a member of the group in Milwaukee. I'm not super active, but I make some of the meetings and some of the early events and know some of the returned volunteers here in the Milwaukee area. I think we have maybe about 30, 40 real active members. We should have more because there's a lot more returned volunteers in Milwaukee. But that's just the way life is, I guess.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess you've, have you been involved in other third goal activities since you've been back, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and it's still on ongoing. Hopefully I'll go back there this next winter or next summer. In fact, six individuals from Taulabé were up here middle of last month and a husband and wife stayed with us for six days. And I had known her in 1966. I knew him a little bit in 1967, just before I left. So we have a lot of things in, in common.

[Assistant] Okay, well, and have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement since those days?

[User] I'm a member of the group in Milwaukee. I'm not super active, but I make some of the meetings and some of the early events and know some of the returned volunteers here in the Milwaukee area. I think we have maybe about 30, 40 real active members. We should have more because there's a lot more returned volunteers in Milwaukee. But that's just the way life is, I guess.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess you've, have you been involved in other third goal activities since you've been back, you know?

[User] Yes. I have went to various high schools and civic groups to show them photographs of Honduras and the work that we did there.

[Assistant] Okay. What do you feel your, uh, the effect on you of your Peace Corps service has been, either immediate at the time or in career plans or long term?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm a member of the group in Milwaukee. I'm not super active, but I make some of the meetings and some of the early events and know some of the returned volunteers here in the Milwaukee area. I think we have maybe about 30, 40 real active members. We should have more because there's a lot more returned volunteers in Milwaukee. But that's just the way life is, I guess.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess you've, have you been involved in other third goal activities since you've been back, you know?

[User] Yes. I have went to various high schools and civic groups to show them photographs of Honduras and the work that we did there.

[Assistant] Okay. What do you feel your, uh, the effect on you of your Peace Corps service has been, either immediate at the time or in career plans or long term?

[User] It was a long-term thing. I knew right then while I was living there that I, I liked the Latin way of life. And I think that it's made me slow down in my life here a little bit. That made me live a lot simpler here. It made me save a lot of money and live simply. And for that, I was able to retire early. My wife is from Nicaragua, which is right next to, right south of Honduras. So we have a lot of the same interests as far as the way of life and listening to Latin music and eating Latin foods here too.

[Assistant] And where did you meet her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I have went to various high schools and civic groups to show them photographs of Honduras and the work that we did there.

[Assistant] Okay. What do you feel your, uh, the effect on you of your Peace Corps service has been, either immediate at the time or in career plans or long term?

[User] It was a long-term thing. I knew right then while I was living there that I, I liked the Latin way of life. And I think that it's made me slow down in my life here a little bit. That made me live a lot simpler here. It made me save a lot of money and live simply. And for that, I was able to retire early. My wife is from Nicaragua, which is right next to, right south of Honduras. So we have a lot of the same interests as far as the way of life and listening to Latin music and eating Latin foods here too.

[Assistant] And where did you meet her?

[User] I met my wife in Milwaukee. She had, uh, had moved to the U.S. in July of 1960, so she was here even before I went to Honduras.

[Assistant] Okay, I think that's pretty much it unless there's anything else you want, you know, you want to expound on or any little phrases or tips or words of advice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I met my wife in Milwaukee. She had, uh, had moved to the U.S. in July of 1960, so she was here even before I went to Honduras.

[Assistant] Okay, I think that's pretty much it unless there's anything else you want, you know, you want to expound on or any little phrases or tips or words of advice.

[User] Any words of advice to new volunteers, I would say keep a diary or some kind of a log. I did, but it wasn't elaborate enough. I look at it now and I kind of forgot a lot of things. I wish I was a little more detailed as far as writing things down so I could remember them 40 years later. So anybody that's doing it now, write down a lot of information, although sometimes it's not complimentary toward some of the citizens you're working with. So you want to make sure that you don't let anybody see it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Also, I would say don't be super goal oriented when you first get there. Make a lot of friends. Find out how things operate in your site. After you're there a while, things will move along, but more slowly than here in the U.S. because here we're used to hopefully getting results quickly. There you're working against centuries and centuries of inertia, and that's just the way it is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's true what you said about having a diary. I didn't have a diary, but I did write letters regularly and my parents kept those letters so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Any words of advice to new volunteers, I would say keep a diary or some kind of a log. I did, but it wasn't elaborate enough. I look at it now and I kind of forgot a lot of things. I wish I was a little more detailed as far as writing things down so I could remember them 40 years later. So anybody that's doing it now, write down a lot of information, although sometimes it's not complimentary toward some of the citizens you're working with. So you want to make sure that you don't let anybody see it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Also, I would say don't be super goal oriented when you first get there. Make a lot of friends. Find out how things operate in your site. After you're there a while, things will move along, but more slowly than here in the U.S. because here we're used to hopefully getting results quickly. There you're working against centuries and centuries of inertia, and that's just the way it is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's true what you said about having a diary. I didn't have a diary, but I did write letters regularly and my parents kept those letters so.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] And that's one of my projects hopefully for the future, to get them all together, because I think it would be an interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Also, I would say don't be super goal oriented when you first get there. Make a lot of friends. Find out how things operate in your site. After you're there a while, things will move along, but more slowly than here in the U.S. because here we're used to hopefully getting results quickly. There you're working against centuries and centuries of inertia, and that's just the way it is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's true what you said about having a diary. I didn't have a diary, but I did write letters regularly and my parents kept those letters so.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] And that's one of my projects hopefully for the future, to get them all together, because I think it would be an interesting.

[User] One thing I've seen now, I've seen current volunteers having blogs on the internet. You've got to be very careful what you say on those blogs. I've looked at some of them and some things that they are saying, you know, again, isn't very complimentary toward the people they're living and working with. And you've got to be very careful about that.

[Assistant] And you might not even realize it. I think a lot of people don't realize the effect that it has.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One thing I've seen now, I've seen current volunteers having blogs on the internet. You've got to be very careful what you say on those blogs. I've looked at some of them and some things that they are saying, you know, again, isn't very complimentary toward the people they're living and working with. And you've got to be very careful about that.

[Assistant] And you might not even realize it. I think a lot of people don't realize the effect that it has.

[User] No, you have to be real careful what you're saying in these blogs today. So I would say be very, very neutral if you're going to do that and watch, you know, what you open yourself up to there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It could be bad.

[Assistant] Okay. Anything else or is that pretty much it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, you have to be real careful what you're saying in these blogs today. So I would say be very, very neutral if you're going to do that and watch, you know, what you open yourself up to there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It could be bad.

[Assistant] Okay. Anything else or is that pretty much it?

[User] Can't think of anything else right now. This has been a lot of fun though.

[Assistant] I've really enjoyed this and get to know your experience a little bit better. And yeah, you're a real loner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It could be bad.

[Assistant] Okay. Anything else or is that pretty much it?

[User] Can't think of anything else right now. This has been a lot of fun though.

[Assistant] I've really enjoyed this and get to know your experience a little bit better. And yeah, you're a real loner.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. That must have been tough, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Can't think of anything else right now. This has been a lot of fun though.

[Assistant] I've really enjoyed this and get to know your experience a little bit better. And yeah, you're a real loner.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. That must have been tough, I mean.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] I guess I can, I mean, you could have possibly gone with, well, there were what, 30 that did go to the Dominican Republic? So you could have been one of those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. That must have been tough, I mean.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] I guess I can, I mean, you could have possibly gone with, well, there were what, 30 that did go to the Dominican Republic? So you could have been one of those.

[User] But I wasn't, you know.

[Assistant] For any reason you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] I guess I can, I mean, you could have possibly gone with, well, there were what, 30 that did go to the Dominican Republic? So you could have been one of those.

[User] But I wasn't, you know.

[Assistant] For any reason you think?

[User] No, you don't know, they, who knows why they thought I wouldn't fit in with the situation in the D.R. because of the U.S. invasion. God only knows. They never really gave you a good answer on that. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Getting back to the, did, uh, like the FBI talk to friends and relatives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I wasn't, you know.

[Assistant] For any reason you think?

[User] No, you don't know, they, who knows why they thought I wouldn't fit in with the situation in the D.R. because of the U.S. invasion. God only knows. They never really gave you a good answer on that. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Getting back to the, did, uh, like the FBI talk to friends and relatives?

[User] Oh, yeah. Before I was selected, my neighbors told me that there was an agent that came around from the FBI asking what kind of guy I was, etcetera, etcetera. I guess they don't do that now.

[Assistant] I don't think they do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Before I was selected, my neighbors told me that there was an agent that came around from the FBI asking what kind of guy I was, etcetera, etcetera. I guess they don't do that now.

[Assistant] I don't think they do.

[User] But all the neighbors, you know, let us know that was an FBI agent in the neighborhood asking about me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, they, like they did the same with me and, you know, like they interviewed my doctor and stuff like that. I don't know if people were more free with the information then or what. We both made it, so I guess you couldn't have been too bad. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Joe, I appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've been one of them. I've been there probably as long or longer than I should have. I've had others in my office also pitching in significantly. Kevin Engelbert's been there for a good part of it. Cal Seaman as well. A guy named Vince Witt is helping out on tools and hardware a lot recently. It's also a sort of growing and changing thing where people come and go.

[Assistant] You're still attached to the EVA project office, but you're just detailed to Phase 1, is that how it's working, a matrix, as they would say?

[User] No, as an EVA guy you sort of work for everybody. So officially I work for XA in the EVA Project Office, but also support Phase 1 Office, support Phase Two-Three guys under [Randy] Brinkley.

[Assistant] Can you kind of describe the differences in EVA techniques between the Russian Orlan suit and the U.S. EMU?

[User] There are many similarities and many differences. To boil it all down, the differences are there, but they're not really major. There's differences in mobility. There's differences in dexterity. There's differences in interfaces to the vehicle—umbilicals and other aspects. The Orlan has positive features over the EMU, and, vice versa, the EMU over the Orlan. They both sort of evolved around the vehicle and different requirements. Our suit evolved from Apollo; theirs evolved from a suit they were going to take to the moon. Their vehicle is designed so that you don't need a lot of tools. Most of their items that you do maintenance on are inside. They do a lot of work outside with science, with assembly of big things like solar arrays and propellant modules. They tend to not use foot restraints. That's one difference. I'm not sure whether that's because their design wasn't always as hot as it could have been, but they do a lot of what we call free-floating tasks where you hold on with one hand and working with the other.

[Assistant] How do they handle high torque, or do they avoid that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We threw good folks at it and a whole Tiger Team effort and pulled it off.

[Assistant] And as we all know, it worked like a charm on orbit.

[User] It worked. We're going to try to bring it home and put it in a museum somewhere, probably beside the Sky Lab (tool).

[Assistant] Tell us a little bit about the NBL test that you did with the Orlan suit. I think you recently did a SAFER [Simplified Aid for EVA Rescue] test here at NBL or in hydro lab. I'm not sure which one.

[User] We've done a lot of Orlan-suit tests. We've got three Orlans here, one a DMA we've modified into an M. We've got an Orlan M full-up for the water tank as well. One 1G Orlan M. We've done tests with foot restraints and tethers, safer (the self-rescue device, the jet backpack) has been developed using these suits. We trained Linenger (before he flew) in the WET-F. We've done Space Station tests for CETA [Crew and Equipment Translation Aid] carts. For ….. comes to mind Shannon Lucid flew on there [Mir], came back, and has helped us with development tests with the Orlan. Most recently there were tests to certify and rate the Orlan M water tank suit for the NBL. We just received that late last year. They followed that up with engineering tests for refining the weigh-out system of the suit and looking at Orlan SAFER in terms of donning and doffing and operations, clearances, basic engineering, clarification of the design.

[Assistant] I think I read in your EVA activity report that you were looking at—was it modifications to SAFER or the Orlan suit to make sure that they really did fit between the two? Can you talk a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The umbilical would probably run out through the hatch. It's got another interesting new feature, something our guys have talked about a little bit recently, is the moon roof on top. You can look up to a certain degree, if you tilt your head back, and you see different translation modes. So that's a function that we may consider adding some day.\n\n The suit's very maintainable. You can basically strip the guts out of it and start over, replace individual components in the backpack. So in terms of easy to resize, maintainable, easy to don quickly, get out, it's got a lot of the features that everybody wants. You take the best of the Orlan, the best of the EMU, and you've got a winner.\n\n We had actually started—one of the first efforts we did with the Russians was a common suit effort. We were going to merge the best of the two suits. For various reasons that stopped. We've proceeded down a path of selective commonality with foot restraints and tethers. The Russians have safety hooks. We've made it so that our NASA tether can also go on the suit.

[Assistant] Are you releasing something before you pinch it there?

[User] You hit the release in the front and the rest goes. They use a dual safety tether protocol, the theory always you're two tethers hooked on, so if one fails, you're still hooked.

[Assistant] So they do a hand-over-hand type translation?

[User] Yes, hand over hand. Fortunately, while you're moving one, you've only got one attached, so that's kind of why we're all evolving toward the SAFER, adds extra redundancy and margin of safety.

[Assistant] When we talked to Mr. Aleksandrov, he talked about one of the U.S. tethers that's been used. I guess it's the one that has the recoil on it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You hit the release in the front and the rest goes. They use a dual safety tether protocol, the theory always you're two tethers hooked on, so if one fails, you're still hooked.

[Assistant] So they do a hand-over-hand type translation?

[User] Yes, hand over hand. Fortunately, while you're moving one, you've only got one attached, so that's kind of why we're all evolving toward the SAFER, adds extra redundancy and margin of safety.

[Assistant] When we talked to Mr. Aleksandrov, he talked about one of the U.S. tethers that's been used. I guess it's the one that has the recoil on it.

[User] Yes. It's a 55-foot cable on a spring reel, feed out and retract. It works well for Shuttle, but even then it gets tangled every once in a while and you've got to be careful not to pull it out too far and attend to it. It's nice because you hook once and you never have to mess with it again. It stays clean. On station vehicles it's a little more challenging to do. But what we've done is we've tried to build in the option to do what makes sense for each task in each location tether-wise.\n\n We've done things as simple as patches. We put a Russian patch on the EMU for STS-86 when Titov went out with Scott Parazynski. Haven't got an EMU patch on the Orlan.

[Assistant]
Would you show us again how it attaches?

The tether again?

You mentioned earlier that it somewhat attaches umbilical.

The umbilical? Is that what you're asking about?

Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in the pool there's an umbilical that's connected. Let's see. The umbilical comes into the backpack of the Orlan, so it's out of the way. They lift them into the water using the strap. They get essentially lowered in via crane. They get taken off the crane. They adjust weights that are on the suit for neutral buoyancy, as close as you can get. Divers take them over to the airlock, and from there it's all up to them.\n\n The EMU, pretty much the same. You've got a water tank umbilical. With our new NBL, really long cord, somebody tends it for you, simulates that it's not there on orbit. You're translating around on handrails. You're on the end of the robotic manipulator, interacting with it. You're doing the same work you do on orbit, and if you do it right, you don't notice the difference.

[Assistant] How long are they in the pool?

[User] You can go up to, say, six hours, with a depth. You have to be careful with nitrogen washout, decompression sickness things, so we have a gas mixture at the NBL of enriched oxygen instead of lower nitrogen. The Russians tend to run three- to four-hour runs, but can run longer. We run some runs three, four. We've been doing more runs more recently up to six, to full-duration EVA.

[Assistant] What is the average EVA?

[User] Average for the Russians, probably in recent history have been five and a half hours, but they've gone six, six and a half, a couple at seven. Ours are typically six, six and a half. It varies. We've gone beyond that if necessary—seven plus.

[Assistant] What prepared you for your role to be able to work with the Russians to do this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can go up to, say, six hours, with a depth. You have to be careful with nitrogen washout, decompression sickness things, so we have a gas mixture at the NBL of enriched oxygen instead of lower nitrogen. The Russians tend to run three- to four-hour runs, but can run longer. We run some runs three, four. We've been doing more runs more recently up to six, to full-duration EVA.

[Assistant] What is the average EVA?

[User] Average for the Russians, probably in recent history have been five and a half hours, but they've gone six, six and a half, a couple at seven. Ours are typically six, six and a half. It varies. We've gone beyond that if necessary—seven plus.

[Assistant] What prepared you for your role to be able to work with the Russians to do this?

[User] I've worked EVA operations since 1982 through 1993, so, ten-plus years. I started out as an EMU person and learned all there was to know—not all, but I learned a good piece of it. Worked on console in the Control Center, front and back room. I did crew training, built procedures, sort of worked suit when we were flying it. I worked task operations, tried to hit all the highlights in it. I moved over to a different office in the project program office, so I had the technical background to take with me. It's made it a lot easier, because I don't have to worry so much about knowing the fundamentals. I can concentrate on the new stuff.

[Assistant] You said when you're in the suit, you hit the top. Do you get in it often to try things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Average for the Russians, probably in recent history have been five and a half hours, but they've gone six, six and a half, a couple at seven. Ours are typically six, six and a half. It varies. We've gone beyond that if necessary—seven plus.

[Assistant] What prepared you for your role to be able to work with the Russians to do this?

[User] I've worked EVA operations since 1982 through 1993, so, ten-plus years. I started out as an EMU person and learned all there was to know—not all, but I learned a good piece of it. Worked on console in the Control Center, front and back room. I did crew training, built procedures, sort of worked suit when we were flying it. I worked task operations, tried to hit all the highlights in it. I moved over to a different office in the project program office, so I had the technical background to take with me. It's made it a lot easier, because I don't have to worry so much about knowing the fundamentals. I can concentrate on the new stuff.

[Assistant] You said when you're in the suit, you hit the top. Do you get in it often to try things?

[User] Me personally, my big hurrah with getting in the suits and doing tests was back in MOD. I've been in this thing once or twice. I don't have a lot of time anymore to get in the water tank; that's for other people to do nowadays. It does help to get in and get the experience, because you have more sympathy for the guys who've got to do work in it. So we help set up other people to do the tests, essentially.

[Assistant] What's on the right arm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've worked EVA operations since 1982 through 1993, so, ten-plus years. I started out as an EMU person and learned all there was to know—not all, but I learned a good piece of it. Worked on console in the Control Center, front and back room. I did crew training, built procedures, sort of worked suit when we were flying it. I worked task operations, tried to hit all the highlights in it. I moved over to a different office in the project program office, so I had the technical background to take with me. It's made it a lot easier, because I don't have to worry so much about knowing the fundamentals. I can concentrate on the new stuff.

[Assistant] You said when you're in the suit, you hit the top. Do you get in it often to try things?

[User] Me personally, my big hurrah with getting in the suits and doing tests was back in MOD. I've been in this thing once or twice. I don't have a lot of time anymore to get in the water tank; that's for other people to do nowadays. It does help to get in and get the experience, because you have more sympathy for the guys who've got to do work in it. So we help set up other people to do the tests, essentially.

[Assistant] What's on the right arm?

[User] That's a little cue card of pressures and settings, time remaining versus oxygen bottle pressures, for example. It's basically a little cheat sheet for the crew, emergency checklist.

[Assistant] How much is it worth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Me personally, my big hurrah with getting in the suits and doing tests was back in MOD. I've been in this thing once or twice. I don't have a lot of time anymore to get in the water tank; that's for other people to do nowadays. It does help to get in and get the experience, because you have more sympathy for the guys who've got to do work in it. So we help set up other people to do the tests, essentially.

[Assistant] What's on the right arm?

[User] That's a little cue card of pressures and settings, time remaining versus oxygen bottle pressures, for example. It's basically a little cheat sheet for the crew, emergency checklist.

[Assistant] How much is it worth?

[User] This?

[Assistant]
Yes.

In rubles or dollars? It's worth a lot.

It's almost priceless isn't it? I'm sure there's a fixed price for it, because somebody has to buy it. There are only a few in the world, so it's really not priceable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a little cue card of pressures and settings, time remaining versus oxygen bottle pressures, for example. It's basically a little cheat sheet for the crew, emergency checklist.

[Assistant] How much is it worth?

[User] This?

[Assistant]
Yes.

In rubles or dollars? It's worth a lot.

It's almost priceless isn't it? I'm sure there's a fixed price for it, because somebody has to buy it. There are only a few in the world, so it's really not priceable.

[User] They're not easy to come by, and we keep this one over here in a controlled environment. The same guys that process the EMUs handle this thing so we know it's in good hands.

[Assistant] Is there a company over there like ILC that makes the ones here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This?

[Assistant]
Yes.

In rubles or dollars? It's worth a lot.

It's almost priceless isn't it? I'm sure there's a fixed price for it, because somebody has to buy it. There are only a few in the world, so it's really not priceable.

[User] They're not easy to come by, and we keep this one over here in a controlled environment. The same guys that process the EMUs handle this thing so we know it's in good hands.

[Assistant] Is there a company over there like ILC that makes the ones here?

[User] ILC and Ham Standard up in Connecticut and Delaware do the EMUs for us. Zvezda in Moscow do these suits for EVA, they also do the space suits for launch and entry, Soyuz. They do quite a bit for their space program in general. We've got, like I said, a total of three of these in the States, and this is our one high-fidelity external unit that we don't put in the water. It's not a vacuum chamber unit. It's not flight, but in terms of what the crew interacts with, we can do a lot of training to supplement the water and testing more important. So for us it's pretty much invaluable because it saves a lot of travel. A lot of people can stay here and do work. We're about to deposit EMUs in Moscow in the water tank, so we each have resources at the other end to test and train on. We can't very well transport the vehicle back and forth between countries easily, so we bring the suits.

[Assistant] What about a tool caddie? I don't see a tool caddie on this one like you do on the EMU. Where do they carry their tools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I did the presentations to the guys in D.C. about the value in this, and once they approved it, then we were off and running.

[Assistant] Afterwards, and keeping your team together and moving back into launch days after Columbia—tell us about that, and again, the communication efforts or maybe anything different that you did to keep people in focus and looking toward the future.

[User] We do a lot of training on the Launch Team. For the first year or so after the accident, we didn’t train at all. Everybody was busy doing the recovery or the reconstruction or the paper trails, et cetera. About a year or so after the accident— we were a year and a half away from Discovery launching after Columbia—I started doing the Launch Team training again. We needed to do it. We needed to get our skills back, our sharpness back. So we trained a lot. We trained a lot in the control rooms and individually out at the work sites. We got everybody trained back up and felt really good about Return to Flight. As a Launch Team, we didn’t do anything special for the Return to Flight launch other than individually reflect on it, but there were no Launch Team celebrations or anything. There were a lot of celebrations with Return to Flight. But as far as the Launch Team goes, no. We were doing our business.

[Assistant] Back to business?

[User] Back to business, yes.

[Assistant] I’m sure that felt good, just being able to say that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We do a lot of training on the Launch Team. For the first year or so after the accident, we didn’t train at all. Everybody was busy doing the recovery or the reconstruction or the paper trails, et cetera. About a year or so after the accident— we were a year and a half away from Discovery launching after Columbia—I started doing the Launch Team training again. We needed to do it. We needed to get our skills back, our sharpness back. So we trained a lot. We trained a lot in the control rooms and individually out at the work sites. We got everybody trained back up and felt really good about Return to Flight. As a Launch Team, we didn’t do anything special for the Return to Flight launch other than individually reflect on it, but there were no Launch Team celebrations or anything. There were a lot of celebrations with Return to Flight. But as far as the Launch Team goes, no. We were doing our business.

[Assistant] Back to business?

[User] Back to business, yes.

[Assistant] I’m sure that felt good, just being able to say that.

[User] It felt real good.

[Assistant] Well, talking about training, and looking back on your 24 years for a moment, to look forward to the next years, what would you suggest on how best to train and equip the next group of Agency leaders? What are they going to need to know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Assistant] Great. So we're just going to go ahead and get started. Could you tell me a little bit about what your life was like before joining the Peace Corps?

[User] I was living in Oceanside, California, and I was a marketing communications specialist for the Outdoor Channel. And if you don't know what the Outdoor Channel is, it's a cable TV channel devoted to hunting and fishing and things like that. And I was single and no kids. I was 34 and I was bored with my life and I was bored with making money for other people and doing the same thing every day. I did have a life outside of work. It mostly consisted of going down to San Diego to hear bands and a lot of my friends were in those bands and it was fun until it wasn't.

[Assistant] OK. So you did kind of tell me about why you were wanting to join the Peace Corps. Can you elaborate more on that?

[User] Sure. I wanted to see how other. I wanted what I did with my day to help someone, to be helpful to someone. One thing. Another thing that I did after work was I tutored ESL to some, a lot of my students were the people who worked in the strawberry fields in Carlsbad and they were migrant workers. And it was even though I worked 8 hours a day, I always found the energy to talk to the students. And I always found that it was very, um, it gave me energy and it gave me joy to help. I won't say, I won't say help. They don't need help. But just to support people as they learn English and learn to take their place as people in this country. So and I wanted to do that in a way that would be able to pay my expenses as well as see how other people live. So that's kind of my whole, that's kind of the reason why I joined.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have a specific project or country in mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was living in Oceanside, California, and I was a marketing communications specialist for the Outdoor Channel. And if you don't know what the Outdoor Channel is, it's a cable TV channel devoted to hunting and fishing and things like that. And I was single and no kids. I was 34 and I was bored with my life and I was bored with making money for other people and doing the same thing every day. I did have a life outside of work. It mostly consisted of going down to San Diego to hear bands and a lot of my friends were in those bands and it was fun until it wasn't.

[Assistant] OK. So you did kind of tell me about why you were wanting to join the Peace Corps. Can you elaborate more on that?

[User] Sure. I wanted to see how other. I wanted what I did with my day to help someone, to be helpful to someone. One thing. Another thing that I did after work was I tutored ESL to some, a lot of my students were the people who worked in the strawberry fields in Carlsbad and they were migrant workers. And it was even though I worked 8 hours a day, I always found the energy to talk to the students. And I always found that it was very, um, it gave me energy and it gave me joy to help. I won't say, I won't say help. They don't need help. But just to support people as they learn English and learn to take their place as people in this country. So and I wanted to do that in a way that would be able to pay my expenses as well as see how other people live. So that's kind of my whole, that's kind of the reason why I joined.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have a specific project or country in mind?

[User] I wanted to go to China and learn Chinese or Mandarin, and I was not on the right application cycle for China. So I got invited to Ukraine.

[Assistant] OK. Can you, what was your initial reaction when you got invited to go to the Ukraine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I wanted to see how other. I wanted what I did with my day to help someone, to be helpful to someone. One thing. Another thing that I did after work was I tutored ESL to some, a lot of my students were the people who worked in the strawberry fields in Carlsbad and they were migrant workers. And it was even though I worked 8 hours a day, I always found the energy to talk to the students. And I always found that it was very, um, it gave me energy and it gave me joy to help. I won't say, I won't say help. They don't need help. But just to support people as they learn English and learn to take their place as people in this country. So and I wanted to do that in a way that would be able to pay my expenses as well as see how other people live. So that's kind of my whole, that's kind of the reason why I joined.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have a specific project or country in mind?

[User] I wanted to go to China and learn Chinese or Mandarin, and I was not on the right application cycle for China. So I got invited to Ukraine.

[Assistant] OK. Can you, what was your initial reaction when you got invited to go to the Ukraine?

[User] Well, I didn't know very much about Ukraine. I did have some ESL students from there, and I knew that Dnipropetrovsk was a hard word to say because they would, they were having trouble with English pronunciation. And they said, well, hey, can you say Dnipropetrovsk? And I can say a lot better now than I could back then. But Dnipropetrovsk is a city that, in Ukraine, that's now actually called the Dnipro, because Dnipropetrovsk was the Soviet name of it.

[Assistant] Can you describe upon arriving in Ukraine what it was like? What was your, initially arriving there, what was your impression of the place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was really tired. I think this is common with all Peace Corps volunteers. We had flown from Chicago to, what's that city in Germany, the one? Hamburg? No.

[Assistant] Berlin?

[User]
No, the one, the big, the big airport hub. Frankfurt. Yeah. We had flown from Chicago to Frankfurt and then Frankfurt to Kyiv. And I was really tired and kind of all airports look the same. So we were kind of herded through the airport. And then we had to wait in a long line for, but yeah, all airports. It was kind of your standard airport experience. And then we got on busses and we were taken outside the city to an old sanatorium. And this is where we would have our training our first week, where we were there for about a week before we went to our training sites. And it was, a sanatorium is a health resort where people would go. Either you got guaranteed in the Soviet Union, you got guaranteed a month of vacation, but you had to take it with your coworkers. And you would also, that's where you would also get treated for any maladies that you that you had.

So we have these little rooms in this kind of crumbling sanatorium. It was very pretty. It was on a river. And we had, it was a very structured schedule. And we had started our language training. We started our technical training.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about those trainings a little bit?

[User] It was very basic. We, at the time, some of us learned Russian and some of us learned Ukrainian. That's changed. There's no Russian language training anymore. And we just, we started out with the Russian alphabet and learning basic phrases.

[Assistant] Seems very hard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, the one, the big, the big airport hub. Frankfurt. Yeah. We had flown from Chicago to Frankfurt and then Frankfurt to Kyiv. And I was really tired and kind of all airports look the same. So we were kind of herded through the airport. And then we had to wait in a long line for, but yeah, all airports. It was kind of your standard airport experience. And then we got on busses and we were taken outside the city to an old sanatorium. And this is where we would have our training our first week, where we were there for about a week before we went to our training sites. And it was, a sanatorium is a health resort where people would go. Either you got guaranteed in the Soviet Union, you got guaranteed a month of vacation, but you had to take it with your coworkers. And you would also, that's where you would also get treated for any maladies that you that you had.

So we have these little rooms in this kind of crumbling sanatorium. It was very pretty. It was on a river. And we had, it was a very structured schedule. And we had started our language training. We started our technical training.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about those trainings a little bit?

[User] It was very basic. We, at the time, some of us learned Russian and some of us learned Ukrainian. That's changed. There's no Russian language training anymore. And we just, we started out with the Russian alphabet and learning basic phrases.

[Assistant] Seems very hard.

[User] The alphabet is not hard. It's the grammar that's hard. And it's. Unlike, let's say Spanish speakers, Russian speakers are not what we call sympathetic interlocutors. They're not very patient with people who make mistakes or who don't speak a language perfectly. It's hard for people to understand someone for whom Russian is an additional language. So. That's kind of, that was a little bit of an issue sometimes.

[Assistant] Did you get any technical training? I know you were already had some experience in teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very basic. We, at the time, some of us learned Russian and some of us learned Ukrainian. That's changed. There's no Russian language training anymore. And we just, we started out with the Russian alphabet and learning basic phrases.

[Assistant] Seems very hard.

[User] The alphabet is not hard. It's the grammar that's hard. And it's. Unlike, let's say Spanish speakers, Russian speakers are not what we call sympathetic interlocutors. They're not very patient with people who make mistakes or who don't speak a language perfectly. It's hard for people to understand someone for whom Russian is an additional language. So. That's kind of, that was a little bit of an issue sometimes.

[Assistant] Did you get any technical training? I know you were already had some experience in teaching.

[User]
I had teaching. I had experience tutoring. But yeah, we had a lot of technical training. We were kind of student teachers at a school at our training site. My training site was called Kalynivka, and it was about 40 minutes outside of Kyiv by train. And there were two schools and I was placed at school number two, and I worked with a teacher who was a history teacher. But because all of a sudden they, in the public schools, they needed more English teachers, they kind of conscripted teachers from other subject areas to become English teachers. So the teacher was very nice, but she was very insecure about her English because it wasn't her area of training. She did speak it.

But I taught alongside, alongside her and that's where I was. It was a secondary school, worked with 9th and 10th grade or, no, actually it wasn't a secondary school, but I worked with 9th and 10th grade. The schools there go from 1st to 12th.

[Assistant] OK, so how long was your training? And then after the training, where did you then go to for your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was working at a secondary school and it was a specialized school for the teaching of English. So during, it was set up during the Soviet times and during the Soviet times, they were the people who would become, who would maybe work in the KGB, maybe work in the military, have higher positions because of their ability in English. But after the fall of the Soviet Union, even though it was a place where parents sent their kids if they wanted them to become proficient in English. And so whereas most schools in Ukraine started in fifth grade in teaching English, the school I was at started in the first grade, and they had English every day rather than three days a week.

[Assistant] OK. And now were you actually teaching the students or were you teaching the teachers?

[User] I was teaching the students and I had my, um. Because it was a kind of a more elite school, the better teachers, the teachers who had more a lot more experience and some of them had traveled. So it wasn't the, they didn't want me there because they had a lack of English teachers or they, it was more to, um, I did what's called content based instruction. So I didn't really teach the English language. They did that, but I taught literature and history of the U.S. and the U.K. and other English speaking countries like South Africa, Jamaica, and places like, and Canada. So it was more.

[Assistant] Interesting. So they wanted more content in history.

[User] Yeah, they showed me the textbook. They said, yeah, we teach them grammar, you can teach them something else.

[Assistant] So where did you get the information to teach them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was teaching the students and I had my, um. Because it was a kind of a more elite school, the better teachers, the teachers who had more a lot more experience and some of them had traveled. So it wasn't the, they didn't want me there because they had a lack of English teachers or they, it was more to, um, I did what's called content based instruction. So I didn't really teach the English language. They did that, but I taught literature and history of the U.S. and the U.K. and other English speaking countries like South Africa, Jamaica, and places like, and Canada. So it was more.

[Assistant] Interesting. So they wanted more content in history.

[User] Yeah, they showed me the textbook. They said, yeah, we teach them grammar, you can teach them something else.

[Assistant] So where did you get the information to teach them?

[User] I had some books. I use the internet a lot and at that time I had, you paid by the gigabyte or the megabyte for internet. So I had, I actually, I had a cable. The way they did it was they actually connected a network cable into your house and you paid. You went down to the place and you bought however many megabytes you needed. And then when they ran out, you bought more. So no streaming video, no streaming audio.

[Assistant] What were the biggest challenges?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they showed me the textbook. They said, yeah, we teach them grammar, you can teach them something else.

[Assistant] So where did you get the information to teach them?

[User] I had some books. I use the internet a lot and at that time I had, you paid by the gigabyte or the megabyte for internet. So I had, I actually, I had a cable. The way they did it was they actually connected a network cable into your house and you paid. You went down to the place and you bought however many megabytes you needed. And then when they ran out, you bought more. So no streaming video, no streaming audio.

[Assistant] What were the biggest challenges?

[User] Um, let's see. I think isolation. There weren't a lot of volunteers around, and I kind of liked it that way. But it was, and I was very friendly. The teachers at the school were very friendly with me. And in school it was, we were social but not so much out of school. Everybody kind of had their own life. So I read a lot of books. I watched I think all the seasons of Lost on DVD, and we had DVDs that we would pass around when all the volunteers would get together. I did get a site mate six months into my service, and luckily she was about my same age and we got along really well. But I haven't said a word to her after we, um, after she went back to the States or after we returned to the States. But that was nice. And, um, I think that's.

[Assistant] Did the projects move? Or your job, was it smooth? Everything else seemed to go well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had some books. I use the internet a lot and at that time I had, you paid by the gigabyte or the megabyte for internet. So I had, I actually, I had a cable. The way they did it was they actually connected a network cable into your house and you paid. You went down to the place and you bought however many megabytes you needed. And then when they ran out, you bought more. So no streaming video, no streaming audio.

[Assistant] What were the biggest challenges?

[User] Um, let's see. I think isolation. There weren't a lot of volunteers around, and I kind of liked it that way. But it was, and I was very friendly. The teachers at the school were very friendly with me. And in school it was, we were social but not so much out of school. Everybody kind of had their own life. So I read a lot of books. I watched I think all the seasons of Lost on DVD, and we had DVDs that we would pass around when all the volunteers would get together. I did get a site mate six months into my service, and luckily she was about my same age and we got along really well. But I haven't said a word to her after we, um, after she went back to the States or after we returned to the States. But that was nice. And, um, I think that's.

[Assistant] Did the projects move? Or your job, was it smooth? Everything else seemed to go well?

[User] It was, it was.

[Assistant] A lot of other Peace Corps volunteers, you know, throughout the world. I mean, there's always things, obstacles and problems that get in the way of doing your job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, let's see. I think isolation. There weren't a lot of volunteers around, and I kind of liked it that way. But it was, and I was very friendly. The teachers at the school were very friendly with me. And in school it was, we were social but not so much out of school. Everybody kind of had their own life. So I read a lot of books. I watched I think all the seasons of Lost on DVD, and we had DVDs that we would pass around when all the volunteers would get together. I did get a site mate six months into my service, and luckily she was about my same age and we got along really well. But I haven't said a word to her after we, um, after she went back to the States or after we returned to the States. But that was nice. And, um, I think that's.

[Assistant] Did the projects move? Or your job, was it smooth? Everything else seemed to go well?

[User] It was, it was.

[Assistant] A lot of other Peace Corps volunteers, you know, throughout the world. I mean, there's always things, obstacles and problems that get in the way of doing your job.

[User] Yeah, I won't say there weren't. But the teachers were very willing to work with me. And I was, I discovered that I was, that I wanted to be a teacher. So I think for a lot, that's where I discovered that I wanted to be a teacher, that I want to teach high school. And I think a lot of volunteers, they didn't or they didn't like teaching or didn't or, you know, or their school wasn't very receptive to them. But I think it was, I was very lucky I think. It could have gone wrong in so many ways, but I was a good fit for the school and the school was a good fit for me.

[Assistant] And it influenced you to become a teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, it was.

[Assistant] A lot of other Peace Corps volunteers, you know, throughout the world. I mean, there's always things, obstacles and problems that get in the way of doing your job.

[User] Yeah, I won't say there weren't. But the teachers were very willing to work with me. And I was, I discovered that I was, that I wanted to be a teacher. So I think for a lot, that's where I discovered that I wanted to be a teacher, that I want to teach high school. And I think a lot of volunteers, they didn't or they didn't like teaching or didn't or, you know, or their school wasn't very receptive to them. But I think it was, I was very lucky I think. It could have gone wrong in so many ways, but I was a good fit for the school and the school was a good fit for me.

[Assistant] And it influenced you to become a teacher?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. And, I mean, I think one big issue I had was the kids liked to demonstrate every English cuss word that they, this is a common thing with a lot of Ukraine volunteers. They just would let a stream of English profanity out and as you were walking in the door. And there were really no consequences, there was no detention, which is I mean, that's a good thing. I mean, detention doesn't do any, as we know, does it really help.

[Assistant] The behavior, there was not good discipline you're saying? Or was it just with the cussing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I won't say there weren't. But the teachers were very willing to work with me. And I was, I discovered that I was, that I wanted to be a teacher. So I think for a lot, that's where I discovered that I wanted to be a teacher, that I want to teach high school. And I think a lot of volunteers, they didn't or they didn't like teaching or didn't or, you know, or their school wasn't very receptive to them. But I think it was, I was very lucky I think. It could have gone wrong in so many ways, but I was a good fit for the school and the school was a good fit for me.

[Assistant] And it influenced you to become a teacher?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. And, I mean, I think one big issue I had was the kids liked to demonstrate every English cuss word that they, this is a common thing with a lot of Ukraine volunteers. They just would let a stream of English profanity out and as you were walking in the door. And there were really no consequences, there was no detention, which is I mean, that's a good thing. I mean, detention doesn't do any, as we know, does it really help.

[Assistant] The behavior, there was not good discipline you're saying? Or was it just with the cussing?

[User] Just with that. You know, inside the classroom and once the school bell rang, it was okay. And once they figured out that, um, once they figured out that I could speak Russian sort of, they calmed down. Or, you know, the novelty wore off and, you know, and even if they weren't in my class, the kids who were in my class. Oh, she's okay, you know. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were the kids in this high school kids that were bound for college or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. And, I mean, I think one big issue I had was the kids liked to demonstrate every English cuss word that they, this is a common thing with a lot of Ukraine volunteers. They just would let a stream of English profanity out and as you were walking in the door. And there were really no consequences, there was no detention, which is I mean, that's a good thing. I mean, detention doesn't do any, as we know, does it really help.

[Assistant] The behavior, there was not good discipline you're saying? Or was it just with the cussing?

[User] Just with that. You know, inside the classroom and once the school bell rang, it was okay. And once they figured out that, um, once they figured out that I could speak Russian sort of, they calmed down. Or, you know, the novelty wore off and, you know, and even if they weren't in my class, the kids who were in my class. Oh, she's okay, you know. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were the kids in this high school kids that were bound for college or?

[User] Some. But it was very difficult to get. Number one, you could take the exam and if you pass the exam to get into college, you still had to pay a bribe. So it was a very uneven, inequitable system of getting into college. So I think most people wanted to go, but not everyone did.

[Assistant] Interesting. OK. What about free time in the Ukraine? Vacation time, free time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I wasn't in Cartagena. I was in Barranquilla.

[Assistant] Oh, sorry.

[User] Which is about an hour to the west.

[Assistant] OK. So Cartagena was, that's where you arrived first though, you said?

[User] No, that's just, I just read the New York Times article about that city.

[Assistant] Oh, oh, I'm so sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is about an hour to the west.

[Assistant] OK. So Cartagena was, that's where you arrived first though, you said?

[User] No, that's just, I just read the New York Times article about that city.

[Assistant] Oh, oh, I'm so sorry.

[User] And Cartagena gets a lot more tourists because it has an old, um, an old historical core and it's right on the beach.

[Assistant] So you were in Bar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, to come in as an outsider and to just to. Scheduling was, you know, it wasn't lack of desire or lack of will to participate in these professional developments. It was time. And there are already a lot of teachers would finish one shift at the public school and go teach some classes at the university, because they needed the money. Or they would finish, um, they would finish their day at the school, the public school, and tutor for 5 hours. So there wasn't a whole lot of time for them to receive this, you know, what we were doing. And so.

[Assistant] How long were you in Colombia? Because I know this was Response. This wasn't a full two year stint, right?

[User] Right, it was. Eleven. A year.

[Assistant] A year.

[User] A year. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you do any traveling other than?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, it was. Eleven. A year.

[Assistant] A year.

[User] A year. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you do any traveling other than?

[User]
Just inside, well, inside the country, I'm trying to remember. Because I actually, I got a job after Response because one thing that we, one thing that another volunteer and I did was go. We went to the binational center. I don't know if you, it's called Centro Cultural Colombo Americano. And they offered English classes, they offered movies, they offered cultural programs. And they got, they received money from the State Department. And while I was a volunteer, another volunteer and I would say, OK, well, let's find something we can do where we're useful. And so we went and talked to the director there and they said, oh yeah, we have a conversation club. You can help lead the English Club. OK, something to do. And so after doing that, they offered me the job there.

And I'm trying to remember what was during Peace Corps and what was. I went to Cartagena and Santa Marta because those were the three cities where volunteers were placed. We weren't placed anywhere else in the country. I think now they're starting to place people around Bogota and Boyacá in the interior of the country. But those were the, so I would visit other volunteers in Cartagena, Santa Marta. I went to Panama for spring break I think one year. But yeah, so I got to see a fair amount of the country.

[Assistant] OK. So kind of tying your two experiences together, what do you think were your biggest accomplishments or takeaways from your service in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were everything from bankruptcy, to criminal, “lewd and lascivious behavior. ” [Laughs] Yeah, they were just the basic, and I was working on the Georgia courts.

[Assistant] OK, so that was, you said, 20 hours a week?

[User] Yeah, that was 20 hours a week. And then we ran out of money because they only allowed a salary cap, right? Which was fine for me, because it always happened in May, and the kids were out of school. So to pay money for somebody to watch them would have been just barely breaking even. So, then, I would start back over again. And so I stayed there. And then, I think at the same time I was doing the court cases, my boss put me in charge of the Tennessee Valley Authority records, which I really enjoyed doing those because it was the Depression era. And so, fortunately for me, I gained a lot of experience, because we had the negatives of these wonderful pictures, just incredible pictures of the people standing in front of their little, poor houses, and in front of their stills with guns, churches, all kinds of great pictures. So I had reported to him that Iʼd noticed some of them were bubbling up, and so on. And we started a huge contract to get the—I can't remember what it's called, those particular photos that bubble up like that—is it acetate?

[Assistant] Yeah, I think thatʼs right, cellulose acetate.

[User] They were acetate. So we started this big contract with somebody in Chicago, a company, and I started having to send those, describe them, and then, post that—if you can remember, I don't know what it was called then. Was it EAP [Electronic Archive Project], with Dan Jansen where we started having to put those first photos, anything that went online digitally. I donʼt know if you were there then.

[Assistant] That was before me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Same.

[Assistant] OK, thatʼs really, so thatʼs interesting. So they realized after the fact, that they needed to protect these people's privacy?

[User] Yeah. Well, their faces. And so not only that, but the whole case files were open, which was really, you know, a total invasion of people's privacy, to talk about their sex life, you know.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And the whole thing—it was amazing to me that that ever happened. And to see it firsthand was something else.

[Assistant] Yeah, I can imagine. It must have been a bit disturbing, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was disturbing. Well, we know there was penicillin available, and that was horrible, just to know it was withheld.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, yeah, that was bad. And even with the Tennessee Valley Authority records, those were also open—the case files, which I complained about not too long after I started. I said, “you know, these government oﬀicials went out to these homes, and they interviewed, and they wrote down this case file, and theyʼre calling them morons, or ʻthey're retarded, ʼ or just went on and on about how dirty they were. ” I just didnʼt feel like that needed to be in the public eye, or at least take the name out. I think it was a good 10 or 15 years later where they decided to do that.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So you could get all of that. And I mean, it is history and I understand it, but it was to me, the way they described people, they wouldʼve been fired now. So it was weird. Yeah.

[Assistant] So was that, was that also put online?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah, that was bad. And even with the Tennessee Valley Authority records, those were also open—the case files, which I complained about not too long after I started. I said, “you know, these government oﬀicials went out to these homes, and they interviewed, and they wrote down this case file, and theyʼre calling them morons, or ʻthey're retarded, ʼ or just went on and on about how dirty they were. ” I just didnʼt feel like that needed to be in the public eye, or at least take the name out. I think it was a good 10 or 15 years later where they decided to do that.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So you could get all of that. And I mean, it is history and I understand it, but it was to me, the way they described people, they wouldʼve been fired now. So it was weird. Yeah.

[Assistant] So was that, was that also put online?

[User] No, they weren't online, but they were open. The regions don't have, like we do, restrictions. So you can come in and say, “I want to see all the case files. ” And so researchers did that, yes.

[Assistant] Wow. That is pretty disturbing. So, how long were you at the records center then—or at the archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you could get all of that. And I mean, it is history and I understand it, but it was to me, the way they described people, they wouldʼve been fired now. So it was weird. Yeah.

[Assistant] So was that, was that also put online?

[User] No, they weren't online, but they were open. The regions don't have, like we do, restrictions. So you can come in and say, “I want to see all the case files. ” And so researchers did that, yes.

[Assistant] Wow. That is pretty disturbing. So, how long were you at the records center then—or at the archives?

[User] [Thinking] Probably ʻ83 to ʻ96, maybe, ʻ97.

[Assistant] And that was 20 hours a week, usually?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Thinking] Probably ʻ83 to ʻ96, maybe, ʻ97.

[Assistant] And that was 20 hours a week, usually?

[User] No. Well, I was, like I said, I would do part-time, permanent part-time. Iʼm not sure what year that was, but then my husband died. And it wasn't a matter of emergency, but I needed to get more hours, so they put me at full-time.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] And that was in 1995, when he died.

[Assistant] Wow. So how old were your kids? In high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, I was, like I said, I would do part-time, permanent part-time. Iʼm not sure what year that was, but then my husband died. And it wasn't a matter of emergency, but I needed to get more hours, so they put me at full-time.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] And that was in 1995, when he died.

[Assistant] Wow. So how old were your kids? In high school?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. The twins, the youngest ones, yeah. They were seniors when my husband died, so.

[Assistant] So that was a diﬀerent building, correct? So where was that building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was in 1995, when he died.

[Assistant] Wow. So how old were your kids? In high school?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. The twins, the youngest ones, yeah. They were seniors when my husband died, so.

[Assistant] So that was a diﬀerent building, correct? So where was that building?

[User] Oh yeah [laughs], youʼve never been there?

[Assistant] I went to the Atlanta archives, now, the new one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. The twins, the youngest ones, yeah. They were seniors when my husband died, so.

[Assistant] So that was a diﬀerent building, correct? So where was that building?

[User] Oh yeah [laughs], youʼve never been there?

[Assistant] I went to the Atlanta archives, now, the new one.

[User] The new one. Yeah. That was an old military supply depot in East Point. It was really kind of nasty. And I was so scared to go to the library because we always said, “Youʼre going from the slum to the country club. [Daria laughs] Youʼre not going to fit in. [Laughs] But I found that not to be the case, real quick.

[Assistant] So who was working? Who on staﬀ was there, thatʼs there now, when you started at the library?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah [laughs], youʼve never been there?

[Assistant] I went to the Atlanta archives, now, the new one.

[User] The new one. Yeah. That was an old military supply depot in East Point. It was really kind of nasty. And I was so scared to go to the library because we always said, “Youʼre going from the slum to the country club. [Daria laughs] Youʼre not going to fit in. [Laughs] But I found that not to be the case, real quick.

[Assistant] So who was working? Who on staﬀ was there, thatʼs there now, when you started at the library?

[User] Letʼs see, now. Ceri [Escodi, now McCarron], Youlanda [Logan]. Keith [Shuler]. I think that's it, as far as the archival staﬀ.

[Assistant] OK, I thought Betty [Egwenike], maybe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The new one. Yeah. That was an old military supply depot in East Point. It was really kind of nasty. And I was so scared to go to the library because we always said, “Youʼre going from the slum to the country club. [Daria laughs] Youʼre not going to fit in. [Laughs] But I found that not to be the case, real quick.

[Assistant] So who was working? Who on staﬀ was there, thatʼs there now, when you started at the library?

[User] Letʼs see, now. Ceri [Escodi, now McCarron], Youlanda [Logan]. Keith [Shuler]. I think that's it, as far as the archival staﬀ.

[Assistant] OK, I thought Betty [Egwenike], maybe.

[User] Oh, Betty. That's right, Betty was there.

[Assistant] OK. I just happened to see a list of employees from ʻ96 somewhere. Anyway, OK, so you were doing processing. You were hired to do processing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. My first processing was the anti-inflation adviser, Alfred Kahn, records. I went from there to doing the very first of the First Ladyʼs Oﬀice, and that lasted years, before we even got to the end, or close to the end, of that. And then I just did whatever processing I could—DPS [Domestic Policy Staﬀ], I did almost probably everything I can think of, every collection, I did one or two series in.

[Assistant] Wow. So what was your favorite part of the job?

[User] At the library?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] At the library, I think that once I got involved in accessioning, doing the inventory. I liked the fact that I didnʼt have to process all day, but I could do two hours here, I could get up and move around. And I really enjoyed that, moving around. And once I was in that part, I was a lot happier. Iʼm just not the type of person that can do processing eight hours a day. I just canʼt do it.

[Assistant] Was everybody doing that, was everybody on one task?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the library, I think that once I got involved in accessioning, doing the inventory. I liked the fact that I didnʼt have to process all day, but I could do two hours here, I could get up and move around. And I really enjoyed that, moving around. And once I was in that part, I was a lot happier. Iʼm just not the type of person that can do processing eight hours a day. I just canʼt do it.

[Assistant] Was everybody doing that, was everybody on one task?

[User] I think for the longest time, I canʼt remember the exact years, but at some point it was just me and Youlanda processing, because they put everybody in the vault. They just left the two of us.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] Yeah, so like Keith, Chuck Stokely, Betty, all of them, they had a huge staﬀ down there, because they were so far behind. And I knew nothing about their processes, I didnʼt really pay it much attention. But, yeah, eventually there were just a couple of us upstairs. Even, yeah, James Herring went down to the vault. And they werenʼt happy about it, but, you know.

[Assistant] But who was doing the Research Room, then? Did everybody split that up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think for the longest time, I canʼt remember the exact years, but at some point it was just me and Youlanda processing, because they put everybody in the vault. They just left the two of us.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] Yeah, so like Keith, Chuck Stokely, Betty, all of them, they had a huge staﬀ down there, because they were so far behind. And I knew nothing about their processes, I didnʼt really pay it much attention. But, yeah, eventually there were just a couple of us upstairs. Even, yeah, James Herring went down to the vault. And they werenʼt happy about it, but, you know.

[Assistant] But who was doing the Research Room, then? Did everybody split that up?

[User] The Research Room was rotation. I think it was on a daily thing, actually, like, on Tuesdays, I would do it—yeah. And then they switched to Keith and somebody else, Chuck Stokely, maybe, splitting it. And that was really great. [Laughs] And then it was Bert Nason—he was there, by the way, I didnʼt think about that. But Bert started doing it full time. And when you were in there, you would, if you were full-time Research Room, you did all the requests, researcher requests, while you were sitting there.

[Assistant] But somebody else had to do the pulls?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so like Keith, Chuck Stokely, Betty, all of them, they had a huge staﬀ down there, because they were so far behind. And I knew nothing about their processes, I didnʼt really pay it much attention. But, yeah, eventually there were just a couple of us upstairs. Even, yeah, James Herring went down to the vault. And they werenʼt happy about it, but, you know.

[Assistant] But who was doing the Research Room, then? Did everybody split that up?

[User] The Research Room was rotation. I think it was on a daily thing, actually, like, on Tuesdays, I would do it—yeah. And then they switched to Keith and somebody else, Chuck Stokely, maybe, splitting it. And that was really great. [Laughs] And then it was Bert Nason—he was there, by the way, I didnʼt think about that. But Bert started doing it full time. And when you were in there, you would, if you were full-time Research Room, you did all the requests, researcher requests, while you were sitting there.

[Assistant] But somebody else had to do the pulls?

[User] Yes. So there was a pull person, and a person in there, and I canʼt remember. But I think thatʼs how it worked. Like, if my day was Tuesday, then somebody else did the pulls on Tuesday. And Keith and somebody else had Wednesday, etc., etc., and then later we switched to weeks, and then stuﬀ like that.

[Assistant] So how many supervisors did you have at the library? Can you remember, can you think about it? Supervisory archivists, I mean, direct supervisors.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Research Room was rotation. I think it was on a daily thing, actually, like, on Tuesdays, I would do it—yeah. And then they switched to Keith and somebody else, Chuck Stokely, maybe, splitting it. And that was really great. [Laughs] And then it was Bert Nason—he was there, by the way, I didnʼt think about that. But Bert started doing it full time. And when you were in there, you would, if you were full-time Research Room, you did all the requests, researcher requests, while you were sitting there.

[Assistant] But somebody else had to do the pulls?

[User] Yes. So there was a pull person, and a person in there, and I canʼt remember. But I think thatʼs how it worked. Like, if my day was Tuesday, then somebody else did the pulls on Tuesday. And Keith and somebody else had Wednesday, etc., etc., and then later we switched to weeks, and then stuﬀ like that.

[Assistant] So how many supervisors did you have at the library? Can you remember, can you think about it? Supervisory archivists, I mean, direct supervisors.

[User] [Counts] Four.

[Assistant] Oh, thatʼs pretty good. I mean, you were there a long time, so thatʼs not that high of a turnover.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So there was a pull person, and a person in there, and I canʼt remember. But I think thatʼs how it worked. Like, if my day was Tuesday, then somebody else did the pulls on Tuesday. And Keith and somebody else had Wednesday, etc., etc., and then later we switched to weeks, and then stuﬀ like that.

[Assistant] So how many supervisors did you have at the library? Can you remember, can you think about it? Supervisory archivists, I mean, direct supervisors.

[User] [Counts] Four.

[Assistant] Oh, thatʼs pretty good. I mean, you were there a long time, so thatʼs not that high of a turnover.

[User] It was Bob, and then Dave, and then Sara [Mitchell], and then back to Dave, and then Aisha [Johnson-Jones].

[Assistant] So Dave was a supervisory archivist for, like, most of the time you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Counts] Four.

[Assistant] Oh, thatʼs pretty good. I mean, you were there a long time, so thatʼs not that high of a turnover.

[User] It was Bob, and then Dave, and then Sara [Mitchell], and then back to Dave, and then Aisha [Johnson-Jones].

[Assistant] So Dave was a supervisory archivist for, like, most of the time you were there?

[User] I canʼt remember. It depends, because Jay Hakes was the director…first when I got there, Don Schewe was the director and I canʼt remember exactly when he left and Jay came. And when Jay came, Bob was promoted to deputy director, right? So then Dave came in and took his place. And Iʼm sure it was at least five or so years, yeah, for Dave to be the supervisor. So if you count Brittany [Parris, who had just become supervisory archivist at the time of the interview] then thatʼs six. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Thatʼs true. How has the library changed over the years? Positives and negatives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I canʼt remember. It depends, because Jay Hakes was the director…first when I got there, Don Schewe was the director and I canʼt remember exactly when he left and Jay came. And when Jay came, Bob was promoted to deputy director, right? So then Dave came in and took his place. And Iʼm sure it was at least five or so years, yeah, for Dave to be the supervisor. So if you count Brittany [Parris, who had just become supervisory archivist at the time of the interview] then thatʼs six. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Thatʼs true. How has the library changed over the years? Positives and negatives?

[User] [Thinks] Well, to be honest with you, Iʼve always told everyone about a year after I started, I had a lot of diﬀerent things that I could do. The first year, I just wanted to leave and run away, because I was so bored. But after that, I would tell everyone for the next probably 10 or 12 years, that I had the best job in the whole world. And I really enjoyed working there. We had these great Christmas parties, there was good feelings among people, there was good cooperation. And I donʼt know what really changed, just little by little, with the new director or with diﬀerent things going on, I just—. Of course, electronic social media came into play, which was diﬀerent, but—yeah, there was a time where I was so happy, for 10 or 15 years, and then I was miserable to the point of ridiculous, basically.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] I mean, I was literally miserable, because we had new people come in, there was a lot, there was a conflict, and it was really, really diﬀicult.

[Assistant] But you still enjoyed the work, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Thinks] Well, to be honest with you, Iʼve always told everyone about a year after I started, I had a lot of diﬀerent things that I could do. The first year, I just wanted to leave and run away, because I was so bored. But after that, I would tell everyone for the next probably 10 or 12 years, that I had the best job in the whole world. And I really enjoyed working there. We had these great Christmas parties, there was good feelings among people, there was good cooperation. And I donʼt know what really changed, just little by little, with the new director or with diﬀerent things going on, I just—. Of course, electronic social media came into play, which was diﬀerent, but—yeah, there was a time where I was so happy, for 10 or 15 years, and then I was miserable to the point of ridiculous, basically.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] I mean, I was literally miserable, because we had new people come in, there was a lot, there was a conflict, and it was really, really diﬀicult.

[Assistant] But you still enjoyed the work, right?

[User] Oh, yeah, Iʼve always enjoyed the work. Iʼm sort of anal retentive. I love to organize and go down to the detail level. So, yeah. I like what I did, and I just wish I hadnʼt gotten involved in the other political aspects that came into play.

[Assistant] Right. Which you canʼt, you know, you canʼt really help, right? They come, things change.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, Iʼve always enjoyed the work. Iʼm sort of anal retentive. I love to organize and go down to the detail level. So, yeah. I like what I did, and I just wish I hadnʼt gotten involved in the other political aspects that came into play.

[Assistant] Right. Which you canʼt, you know, you canʼt really help, right? They come, things change.

[User] Things change, and I tried to make the best of it, I did go through the, what is it, the—

[Assistant] RESOLVE?

[User] RESOLVE program, trying to help out, and that helped quite a bit. We got some things settled at that point. But yeah, I just wish that had never happened.

[Assistant] Right. So, what are some of your favorite collections that youʼve worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Things change, and I tried to make the best of it, I did go through the, what is it, the—

[Assistant] RESOLVE?

[User] RESOLVE program, trying to help out, and that helped quite a bit. We got some things settled at that point. But yeah, I just wish that had never happened.

[Assistant] Right. So, what are some of your favorite collections that youʼve worked on?

[User] I think that my favorite collection was the unprocessed, pre-Presidential Carter Family Papers. That was stuﬀ from his gubernatorial era and also his state Senate [career], and you got to see him before, as he was moving through politically up the ranks. More candid, more annotations, more handwriting, a whole diﬀerent period. And I think also, after that it would be the First Ladyʼs Oﬀice, that was pretty good, too.

[Assistant] Did you work personally with Mrs. Carter, Rosalynn?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] RESOLVE program, trying to help out, and that helped quite a bit. We got some things settled at that point. But yeah, I just wish that had never happened.

[Assistant] Right. So, what are some of your favorite collections that youʼve worked on?

[User] I think that my favorite collection was the unprocessed, pre-Presidential Carter Family Papers. That was stuﬀ from his gubernatorial era and also his state Senate [career], and you got to see him before, as he was moving through politically up the ranks. More candid, more annotations, more handwriting, a whole diﬀerent period. And I think also, after that it would be the First Ladyʼs Oﬀice, that was pretty good, too.

[Assistant] Did you work personally with Mrs. Carter, Rosalynn?

[User] I would see her when I first started doing the papers, I probably met with her, like, maybe like three times, maybe once a year. And she would tell me things that she was worried about being seen, and I assured her that I had not seen those, and that I would take it into consideration. Of course, not open them. So thatʼs how that went.

[Assistant] And then you worked a lot with her assistant, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that my favorite collection was the unprocessed, pre-Presidential Carter Family Papers. That was stuﬀ from his gubernatorial era and also his state Senate [career], and you got to see him before, as he was moving through politically up the ranks. More candid, more annotations, more handwriting, a whole diﬀerent period. And I think also, after that it would be the First Ladyʼs Oﬀice, that was pretty good, too.

[Assistant] Did you work personally with Mrs. Carter, Rosalynn?

[User] I would see her when I first started doing the papers, I probably met with her, like, maybe like three times, maybe once a year. And she would tell me things that she was worried about being seen, and I assured her that I had not seen those, and that I would take it into consideration. Of course, not open them. So thatʼs how that went.

[Assistant] And then you worked a lot with her assistant, right?

[User] Yes, Melissa [Montgomery]. Because we started getting into the post-Presidential [papers]. I donʼt know how they slopped that on me, but one day they said, “Oh, now youʼre the Carter Center post-pres liaison. ” I was like, “Really?ʼ So that was a whole mess. And I did as much work on it as I could. Because itʼs not our records [i.e., not accessioned], so I didn't really feel like we should be spending a ton of time. Itʼs courtesy storage, as far as I was concerned.

[Assistant] But I guess the idea is that eventually, that will become part of the library, is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Melissa [Montgomery]. Because we started getting into the post-Presidential [papers]. I donʼt know how they slopped that on me, but one day they said, “Oh, now youʼre the Carter Center post-pres liaison. ” I was like, “Really?ʼ So that was a whole mess. And I did as much work on it as I could. Because itʼs not our records [i.e., not accessioned], so I didn't really feel like we should be spending a ton of time. Itʼs courtesy storage, as far as I was concerned.

[Assistant] But I guess the idea is that eventually, that will become part of the library, is that right?

[User] Correct. And to this day, I donʼt know the status of that. I've asked many a time. Iʼve even talked to Phil Wise [Carter Center vice president of operations and development], I said, “Hey, you can hire me as a contractor when I retire, for, you know, maybe one day a week, and Iʼll come in and start processing that stuﬀ on Floor Two. ” And when I told him what my salary was, he said, “No way. ” [Laughs] We didnʼt go further than that, it was sort of like a joke, you know. At some point, thatʼs going to be a huge to-do over there, because we are now closing all Presidential handwriting, correct?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Well, if you see whatʼs down there, itʼll be a disaster area. Thatʼs going to be, really—if they continue with closing everything, I donʼt know. Itʼs going to be hard, really hard. Thereʼs going to be a lot of decisions to be made, basically.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about how description has changed, since you started there? Well, even before that, starting, when you were at the Atlanta archives, how—not just electronically, but also like, at the library, you have paper finding aids, etc.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, if you see whatʼs down there, itʼll be a disaster area. Thatʼs going to be, really—if they continue with closing everything, I donʼt know. Itʼs going to be hard, really hard. Thereʼs going to be a lot of decisions to be made, basically.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about how description has changed, since you started there? Well, even before that, starting, when you were at the Atlanta archives, how—not just electronically, but also like, at the library, you have paper finding aids, etc.

[User] Yes. The paper finding aids. Then they went online. The worst part was, every supervisor had a diﬀerent format. So, the format, we finally had a big committee, where we came up with the final format, probably in 2007, somewhere around there. But that was a problem—every supervisor had a diﬀerent format of how they wanted description done. So that caused a problem in the legacy finding aids that theyʼd done before I ever got there. Everything was so much diﬀerent, and we had to switch everything over to the new format, electronically, and then print them out, put them back in the notebooks. And it was very labor intensive. And I was always wanting to collaborate with other libraries to see what they were doing, but I was told not to do that, and did not do that.

[Assistant] And then, of course, now theyʼre trying to standardize it across all the libraries.

[User] Oh, they are?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, processing. Yes, a recent memo came out, and itʼs pretty much—standardizing processing is what itʼs about. Thereʼs not a lot of detail yet, but thereʼs a thing about basic and augmented processing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The paper finding aids. Then they went online. The worst part was, every supervisor had a diﬀerent format. So, the format, we finally had a big committee, where we came up with the final format, probably in 2007, somewhere around there. But that was a problem—every supervisor had a diﬀerent format of how they wanted description done. So that caused a problem in the legacy finding aids that theyʼd done before I ever got there. Everything was so much diﬀerent, and we had to switch everything over to the new format, electronically, and then print them out, put them back in the notebooks. And it was very labor intensive. And I was always wanting to collaborate with other libraries to see what they were doing, but I was told not to do that, and did not do that.

[Assistant] And then, of course, now theyʼre trying to standardize it across all the libraries.

[User] Oh, they are?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, processing. Yes, a recent memo came out, and itʼs pretty much—standardizing processing is what itʼs about. Thereʼs not a lot of detail yet, but thereʼs a thing about basic and augmented processing.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there an electronic archives before ARC? A catalog, I mean, before ARC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they are?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, processing. Yes, a recent memo came out, and itʼs pretty much—standardizing processing is what itʼs about. Thereʼs not a lot of detail yet, but thereʼs a thing about basic and augmented processing.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there an electronic archives before ARC? A catalog, I mean, before ARC?

[User] Yeah, that was NAIL [NARA Audiovisual (later NARA Archival) Information Locator].

[Assistant] Thatʼs right. I heard about NAIL.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there an electronic archives before ARC? A catalog, I mean, before ARC?

[User] Yeah, that was NAIL [NARA Audiovisual (later NARA Archival) Information Locator].

[Assistant] Thatʼs right. I heard about NAIL.

[User] First it was NAIL, and thatʼs why I did my training, and then that stayed in for about four years and then five and then went to ARC, and so on and so forth.

[Assistant] Do you have a preference over those, which one you liked working with the most?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was NAIL [NARA Audiovisual (later NARA Archival) Information Locator].

[Assistant] Thatʼs right. I heard about NAIL.

[User] First it was NAIL, and thatʼs why I did my training, and then that stayed in for about four years and then five and then went to ARC, and so on and so forth.

[Assistant] Do you have a preference over those, which one you liked working with the most?

[User] Oh yeah, I think ARC was so much better and easier than DAS [Description and Authorities System], which we have now. It just was. And the printouts in the catalog from ARC were so much easier, better, they were more concise. It was so much easier. Yes.

[Assistant]
I think what I was impressed with NARA, with the ARC program, when they rolled it out—was they actually had a team of archivists—theyʼd have one archivist from every region and one from every library. And for a solid year, before they came out with the platform, and how it was going to look, and the input system, they collaborated, right? And I think thatʼs what made ARC work so well, is because you actually had input from people who were going to use the system.

Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I think ARC was so much better and easier than DAS [Description and Authorities System], which we have now. It just was. And the printouts in the catalog from ARC were so much easier, better, they were more concise. It was so much easier. Yes.

[Assistant]
I think what I was impressed with NARA, with the ARC program, when they rolled it out—was they actually had a team of archivists—theyʼd have one archivist from every region and one from every library. And for a solid year, before they came out with the platform, and how it was going to look, and the input system, they collaborated, right? And I think thatʼs what made ARC work so well, is because you actually had input from people who were going to use the system.

Right.

[User] And so with DAS, I donʼt think there was any input, it just—boom, they were working on it. And then we just rolled it out. And to me, that shows how important it is to talk to the people that use the system every day, and what researchers want, and what they want, right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So, yeah, ARC was definitely much better.

[Assistant] So do you like working with researchers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so with DAS, I donʼt think there was any input, it just—boom, they were working on it. And then we just rolled it out. And to me, that shows how important it is to talk to the people that use the system every day, and what researchers want, and what they want, right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So, yeah, ARC was definitely much better.

[Assistant] So do you like working with researchers?

[User] I did, for a while. [Laughs] I think the older I got, the less I wanted to be interrupted. So it was fine with me, if people [other staﬀ] were in the research room. I couldnʼt care less about going back in there [post-pandemic]. Uh. I donʼt know, it just wasnʼt my thing.

[Assistant] So how has the library building changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah, ARC was definitely much better.

[Assistant] So do you like working with researchers?

[User] I did, for a while. [Laughs] I think the older I got, the less I wanted to be interrupted. So it was fine with me, if people [other staﬀ] were in the research room. I couldnʼt care less about going back in there [post-pandemic]. Uh. I donʼt know, it just wasnʼt my thing.

[Assistant] So how has the library building changed?

[User] You mean the structure?

[Assistant] Inside, you know, the oﬀices?