[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was wonderful. It was wonderful. We were all really working hard supporting the twenty-sixth flight. We were all really busy, because after the flight, we were extremely busy because we did a piece-by-piece safety review, and that took an incredible amount of time and incredible effort.

[Assistant] You think your contributions during that time period were implemented or at least listened to?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you were the first woman to fly after the Challenger accident. Did you feel like there was any pressure or any undue attention that was given to you because of that?

[User] They tried to. They tried to. People tried to make a point of it, and I just let everybody know that I didn’t think that anybody should be making a special point out of this. There were two women that were on the Challenger when it went. Judy [Judith A. Resnik] happened to be a very good friend of mine. So it was just a normal part of the thing, and I just didn’t think it was good to make anything special out of it, because at that point we really were part of the corps.

[Assistant] You didn’t have any hesitation about taking that mission assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you were the first woman to fly after the Challenger accident. Did you feel like there was any pressure or any undue attention that was given to you because of that?

[User] They tried to. They tried to. People tried to make a point of it, and I just let everybody know that I didn’t think that anybody should be making a special point out of this. There were two women that were on the Challenger when it went. Judy [Judith A. Resnik] happened to be a very good friend of mine. So it was just a normal part of the thing, and I just didn’t think it was good to make anything special out of it, because at that point we really were part of the corps.

[Assistant] You didn’t have any hesitation about taking that mission assignment?

[User] It was safe. It was much safer the second ride. Are you kidding? [Laughter] Much safer.

[Assistant] I know during the STS-30 mission, you had some minor problems, or I guess they sound like they’re minor now. You had different things happen. Did that affect you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tried to. They tried to. People tried to make a point of it, and I just let everybody know that I didn’t think that anybody should be making a special point out of this. There were two women that were on the Challenger when it went. Judy [Judith A. Resnik] happened to be a very good friend of mine. So it was just a normal part of the thing, and I just didn’t think it was good to make anything special out of it, because at that point we really were part of the corps.

[Assistant] You didn’t have any hesitation about taking that mission assignment?

[User] It was safe. It was much safer the second ride. Are you kidding? [Laughter] Much safer.

[Assistant] I know during the STS-30 mission, you had some minor problems, or I guess they sound like they’re minor now. You had different things happen. Did that affect you?

[User] We took a single-event upset on a computer. Yes, because…it was during a high solar cycle. Yes, so we got to change out a computer. It was really fun. We really were surprised that they had us change it in the first place, because we took it down and brought it back up and it seemed to be running okay, so when they said, “Go ahead and take up the spare computer.” Mark Lee and I were the IFM [In-Flight Maintenance] guys. We sort of looked at each other like, “Are you sure we want to do this?” [Laughter]

[Assistant] The new job as the jumpmaster and taking care of that, you were ready to do that if needed to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I like the role model part of it and going out and being in situations where, potentially, girls or young women might consider doing something they wouldn’t consider doing before. In particular, I liked working on math-anxiety issues. I worked with Muriel [Schloss] on a book. She wrote a book. There’s a series of books for junior high school girls and there is one on a veterinarian. We did one on my job, like that, so that girls will think about doing different kinds of jobs.\n\n It’s getting to be less and less of an issue, but there is still an incredible issue with targeting young women so they don’t decide that they don’t want to do math in junior high school. They were good at it in elementary school and they get into junior high school, and because of peer pressure, they like to pretend they’re not good at it. We still have a lot of work to do in that arena. I’m on an academy diversity panel now at the National Academy of Engineering, working on those issues. I really got introduced to working on them down in the corps.

[Assistant] After you returned from your missions, did you have any specific public-relations-type duties that you had to do?

[User] First flight, we had the first Mexican astronaut, so we had a trip to Mexico as a post flight. The second flight, we got to come up to the White House and President [George H. W.] Bush—the first President Bush—we had dinner at the White House. That was really fun.

[Assistant] Other duties that you had after the mission, were they many and varied that you had, or were they minimal and nonspecific?

[User] You mean—

[Assistant] After return from the missions, what all did they have you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First flight, we had the first Mexican astronaut, so we had a trip to Mexico as a post flight. The second flight, we got to come up to the White House and President [George H. W.] Bush—the first President Bush—we had dinner at the White House. That was really fun.

[Assistant] Other duties that you had after the mission, were they many and varied that you had, or were they minimal and nonspecific?

[User] You mean—

[Assistant] After return from the missions, what all did they have you do?

[User] No. There was a lot of work to do. After the first flight, we were still in a post-flight period when the accident happened, and then we ended up all doing different stuff. Then after the second flight, I didn’t have that much time before I was reassigned to this other flight, but I was consistently working on life-support issues, because there was always—and there still is—a lot of work to do in that arena.

[Assistant] Were the expectations, when you went down for that interview in Houston in March, the expectations that you had if you got to be an astronaut, did they meet up, or did they match, or did they exceed of what you ended up with once you left the astronaut corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean—

[Assistant] After return from the missions, what all did they have you do?

[User] No. There was a lot of work to do. After the first flight, we were still in a post-flight period when the accident happened, and then we ended up all doing different stuff. Then after the second flight, I didn’t have that much time before I was reassigned to this other flight, but I was consistently working on life-support issues, because there was always—and there still is—a lot of work to do in that arena.

[Assistant] Were the expectations, when you went down for that interview in Houston in March, the expectations that you had if you got to be an astronaut, did they meet up, or did they match, or did they exceed of what you ended up with once you left the astronaut corps?

[User] I guess I haven’t really thought about that. I didn’t really know what to expect. I just knew I wasn’t going to be driving a desk, which was good. And I didn’t drive a desk, and that was good. I guess I went down there really hoping that I could provide a real contribution to the office. I never got the feeling that I didn’t do that, so I guess it did meet what I wanted it to meet.

[Assistant] You were all individuals, and each one of you contributed something to the space program that is still long-lasting. Could you share with us what you feel is probably the greatest accomplishment that you had while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess it was the cultural differences between somebody like me that came out of a university research environment, and interfacing that with the military environment, because that was back in the seventies, and the seventies were closer to the sixties and all the guys in our class flew in Vietnam. In fact, it was always interesting in the first flight when we had daylight over Vietnam, getting a lot of war stories. Then load that on top of the fact that these guys weren’t used to working with women at all, they weren’t used to having women in their environment, but that was probably the biggest challenge to try to work, not to take stuff personally, but rather to just see it as part of an unfolding of events, something you’re mutually working on.

[Assistant] Many changes happened in a really small amount of time, didn’t it.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. I was really lucky. If you compare what happened to me compared to my sister, who’s six years older than I am, I mean, I had it just right. She was just ahead of it. If she had been born when I was born, she would have been a psychiatrist instead of a psychiatric social worker, because she ended up being a nurse first.

[Assistant]
Before we end, I was going to ask Kevin if he had some questions that he thought about asking you as well.

Sure, I had a few, if you still have some time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had spoken to Rebecca a little bit earlier about—you weren’t really sure what your expectations were when coming into the astronaut corps. What idea did you have of what a Shuttle astronaut did, since pretty much the only astronauts they’d had were these Apollo guys and then some on Skylab, I guess. Did you have any kind of image of what an astronaut was going to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. I was really lucky. If you compare what happened to me compared to my sister, who’s six years older than I am, I mean, I had it just right. She was just ahead of it. If she had been born when I was born, she would have been a psychiatrist instead of a psychiatric social worker, because she ended up being a nurse first.

[Assistant]
Before we end, I was going to ask Kevin if he had some questions that he thought about asking you as well.

Sure, I had a few, if you still have some time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had spoken to Rebecca a little bit earlier about—you weren’t really sure what your expectations were when coming into the astronaut corps. What idea did you have of what a Shuttle astronaut did, since pretty much the only astronauts they’d had were these Apollo guys and then some on Skylab, I guess. Did you have any kind of image of what an astronaut was going to be?

[User] I think we’d all watched the Apollo Program pretty carefully. Although they were test pilots except for one guy, they did do geology up there, so they were doing experiments. On Skylab they did a lot of experiments. So I just figured we’d be doing stuff like that, and it wasn’t that far off.

[Assistant] You mentioned working with the engineers. I was wondering what interaction you had with the flight controllers and flight directors, learning to work with the mission control team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had spoken to Rebecca a little bit earlier about—you weren’t really sure what your expectations were when coming into the astronaut corps. What idea did you have of what a Shuttle astronaut did, since pretty much the only astronauts they’d had were these Apollo guys and then some on Skylab, I guess. Did you have any kind of image of what an astronaut was going to be?

[User] I think we’d all watched the Apollo Program pretty carefully. Although they were test pilots except for one guy, they did do geology up there, so they were doing experiments. On Skylab they did a lot of experiments. So I just figured we’d be doing stuff like that, and it wasn’t that far off.

[Assistant] You mentioned working with the engineers. I was wondering what interaction you had with the flight controllers and flight directors, learning to work with the mission control team.

[User] I don’t know. I think of them as being engineers. [Laughter] They are engineers. The guys from the life-support group I was talking about, they’re in there too. They’re in the back rooms and then they’ve got somebody on console. I don’t separate those two groups. I just don’t. To me, they’re the same thing. Sorry.

[Assistant] Also you talked about how important your work was on the life support. I was wondering if you could be a little bit more specific with some of the issues that you mentioned, the dirty air, for instance, and then obviously the head on the Shuttle, but maybe some of these other things that were really critical problems as you were going along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. For both of them. In fact, I still interact with Earl Cook, who is the guy that I did the experiments for with 3M. He’s now retired from 3M, and we trade e-mails. So that even went beyond the results, because 3M pulled out of the space business. So there wasn’t anything else to follow there. For Magellan, see that globe of Venus which I got from Dr. [James W. Head]…he’s at Brown [University, Providence, Rhode Island]. …He sent me a globe of Venus.

[Assistant] How nice.

[User] Yes. …His name is Dr. [Jim Head], he’s really nice, and he keeps sending me slides saying, “See the great work you did,” and all that kind of stuff. So it’s really neat. It’s really neat.

[Assistant] A nice connection.

[User] Yes, yes, it really is.

[Assistant] Just a couple of more, I promise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. …His name is Dr. [Jim Head], he’s really nice, and he keeps sending me slides saying, “See the great work you did,” and all that kind of stuff. So it’s really neat. It’s really neat.

[Assistant] A nice connection.

[User] Yes, yes, it really is.

[Assistant] Just a couple of more, I promise.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You mentioned your flight being the first time they used the RMS as the cherry picker [for a construction experiment], and from what I understand, it wasn’t necessarily a foregone conclusion that you could use the arm in that manner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, it really is.

[Assistant] Just a couple of more, I promise.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You mentioned your flight being the first time they used the RMS as the cherry picker [for a construction experiment], and from what I understand, it wasn’t necessarily a foregone conclusion that you could use the arm in that manner.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Were you involved with any of that process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You mentioned your flight being the first time they used the RMS as the cherry picker [for a construction experiment], and from what I understand, it wasn’t necessarily a foregone conclusion that you could use the arm in that manner.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Were you involved with any of that process?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us a little about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of days the first flight. When people would call me from behind and I’d turn around and I’d overturn, just managing the momentum of my body. You can’t beat sleeping floating around. It’s hard to get used to sleeping on a mattress.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything that you would like to add or any other thoughts that you have before we close today?

[User] Just in general, I think, working—this goes for every NASA Center, but I’ll say working at Johnson Space Center, I mean, you really are lucky if you get to do that. You get to work in an environment with a bunch of dedicated people that are smart, that want to do something, and it’s a shared value kind of thing. I felt like I was really lucky because I got to work—sort of bridge the gap. I’m really happy I got in there early enough that I got to work with some of the old guys, because they were really incredible, and got to fly with them. I think that was really something that was very, very special, even though some of them were really difficult to work with. [Laughter] It was okay.

[Assistant] We appreciate all that you’ve done for the space program and for taking the time today.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] I know you have a busy schedule, and we appreciate you being here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is funny. There are just things people don’t think about.

[Assistant] Well, and that’s why I’d like to get it on tape, because I don’t think that people think about these things. They’re just accustomed to what life is like today.

[User] When they built the new engineering building at the University of Texas—this was in the mid-seventies, I think. And of course, to save money, they only put women’s restrooms on every other floor because there weren’t that many girls going to school there—to heck with the secretaries; they just have to walk. But then worse than that, they put the Society of Women Engineers’ office on a floor that didn’t have a women’s restroom. It’s like, “What do you do? Do you think?”

[Assistant] No.

[User] No. No, no.

[Assistant] You’ve mentioned the Society of Women Engineers several times. Why did you decide to become involved in this organization?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, maybe you said it right there, really, that if we're going to continue space exploration, human space exploration, it's extremely important that each program that we undertake, that we do, that we do it correctly, we do it safely, that we do it correctly and as completely and with as much return for people -I hate the corny phrases like "humankind" and all that -but for people all over the world. And, gosh, the benefits that we have already gotten from space flight are absolutely enormous. We wouldn't be able to operate the way we do today if it weren't for the technologies that were developed, maybe for different reasons, but the technologies that were there, that industry has been able to pick up and hand back to us as usable tools that we use in our everyday life.\n\n The thing that I think that in this profession that we learn and accept is that the things that we are going do, the stones that we turn over today or this week, probably are not going to be able to have direct application for a number of years. It's going to take a long time, some of them ten, maybe fifteen years, but that technology and that experience eventually will be applied, and it's just a long lead time sometimes. Sometimes it's not, but sometimes it takes a long time. So the things that we've doing today that we think maybe are not too significant or not too applicable, and certainly many of our critics think are not applicable, we've already seen that all we have to do is wait a little while until somebody's able to make it a worthwhile tool for everybody to use.

[Assistant]
Let me ask Carol and Paul if they have any questions. Paul?

How many trips did you take to Russia? Did you ever count?

[User] None of us really counted them up. I would guess twelve or fifteen, maybe.

[Assistant] How did you like the Russian winters?

[User] Well, you know, I didn't mind them.

[Assistant] Is that because you grew up in Kansas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None of us really counted them up. I would guess twelve or fifteen, maybe.

[Assistant] How did you like the Russian winters?

[User] Well, you know, I didn't mind them.

[Assistant] Is that because you grew up in Kansas?

[User] No, it wasn't the growing up in Kansas so much, I don't think, although there may be a little similarity there, because it's pretty flat over there in Moscow and the wind blows and there's snow on the ground. But it's a dry cold, and, to be honest, most of the times I was there in the winter, the wind wasn't blowing really bad. So it was cold, the temperature was cold, but it was not uncomfortable. You could get out and walk around the streets at night. It was dry. There was snow on the ground, but it was a crunchy snow.\n\n I wouldn't want to live in Russia. I'm not looking to buy my retirement home on the Moscow River -don't get me wrong -but I have never really been to Russia at a time when the weather was a very distasteful factor. Now, Baikonur was pretty windy and cold when we were down there, but that's up on the steppes, and that really did get cold down there. I certainly wouldn't want to retire at Baikonur.

[Assistant] Now that you've had this experience and still have experience with the Russians and this whole project, are you glad you threw your hat in that door the first time General Stafford -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, I didn't mind them.

[Assistant] Is that because you grew up in Kansas?

[User] No, it wasn't the growing up in Kansas so much, I don't think, although there may be a little similarity there, because it's pretty flat over there in Moscow and the wind blows and there's snow on the ground. But it's a dry cold, and, to be honest, most of the times I was there in the winter, the wind wasn't blowing really bad. So it was cold, the temperature was cold, but it was not uncomfortable. You could get out and walk around the streets at night. It was dry. There was snow on the ground, but it was a crunchy snow.\n\n I wouldn't want to live in Russia. I'm not looking to buy my retirement home on the Moscow River -don't get me wrong -but I have never really been to Russia at a time when the weather was a very distasteful factor. Now, Baikonur was pretty windy and cold when we were down there, but that's up on the steppes, and that really did get cold down there. I certainly wouldn't want to retire at Baikonur.

[Assistant] Now that you've had this experience and still have experience with the Russians and this whole project, are you glad you threw your hat in that door the first time General Stafford -

[User] Oh, yes, you bet. You betcha. Again, I didn't throw my hat in; it was General Stafford that threw my hat in.

[Assistant]
Let's get that clear. [Laughter]

Good thing your head wasn't in it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there certainly was a difference. I think the knowledge gained from my previous career, I was prepared for the fact that there were two classes. There was the technically elite class, and they were rewarded, if not by paychecks, certainly by benefits -apartments, nice apartments to live in, accommodations, places to vacation. You could see a little bit of that carry over initially when we went over there. But on the streets, it was entirely a different story. Unfortunately now, the technical experts are not benefiting from what wealth is coming in, what income is coming in to the Russian folks. As you know, many of them have been paid for a number of months, and the pay that they do get is a paltry sum compared with some of the other -and they're having the same problems that we briefly saw in this country a number of years ago. The young people aren't interested in going into the engineering and technical fields because they can't make a living in those fields. They're going into the business fields and other areas where the money is flowing right now. So it doesn't bode well for the long-range technical, or, I think, the long-range economy, in my opinion.

[Assistant] Do you think your days of poking around at test pilot school was well worth where you are right now?

[User] Absolutely. [Laughter] Absolutely. In fact, I'd give anything to go back and do it again.

[Assistant] We thank you for your time. Is there anything you want to add that you can think of that we didn't cover?

[User] Can't think of a thing. You've been very thorough. Thank you.

[Assistant] You have, too. Thanks so much for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got out of the Army Air Corps in 1946, came back to [University of] Alabama [Tuscaloosa], and got my engineering degree in aeronautical engineering. When I was about to graduate I thought I was going to have to take a job building Pullman [railroad] cars in Birmingham, and along came an NACA recruiter, and he was recruiting aeronautical engineers at Alabama. He picked me and about three others of my classmates to come to NACA Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]. That’s how I first was introduced to NACA. I didn’t know too much about it before that time.

[Assistant] This was 1946?

[User] This was 1947, October ’47.

[Assistant] What did you know that you were going to be doing when you went to work there?

[User] Had no idea.

[Assistant] Except it was going to be in aeronautics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was 1947, October ’47.

[Assistant] What did you know that you were going to be doing when you went to work there?

[User] Had no idea.

[Assistant] Except it was going to be in aeronautics.

[User] Oh yes, I guess so.

[Assistant] Tell us about the first days that you were there, where you were assigned, and some of the first projects.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Had no idea.

[Assistant] Except it was going to be in aeronautics.

[User] Oh yes, I guess so.

[Assistant] Tell us about the first days that you were there, where you were assigned, and some of the first projects.

[User] The main thing was coming and finding a place to live in that area. But it happened that one of the people that was going to be sent to Edwards Air Force Base [California] had just given up his apartment—he was being sent there so we were able to lease his apartment. My wife got a job in the school system, and so NACA personnel people helped us a lot. But the first day I came on board, I was assigned to the Flight Division there. The Army Air Corps at that time was allowing NACA to use a hangar and office buildings there for their use. I was assigned to the Flight Division, and Mel [Melvin N.] Gough was the Chief of the Division. They had a project there which they had an engineer named Bernie [Bernard B.] Klawans who was the project engineer. I was assigned to him to take over the project. He was going on to other things.\n\n The project is as follows. A sheet of acetate was placed over a large hole in a large tank. A supersonic nozzle was bolted to the tank. The tank was pumped down to create a vacuum. A solenoid with a sharp point was actuated to puncture the sheet of plastic. Supersonic flow was induced through the nozzle around an aerodynamic shaped body which had been placed in the throat of the nozzle. A drag sensor measured the drag on the shape. Many different shaped bodies could be tested cheaply. I have a report, this project and five others which I authored with other engineers. Every three years NACA had an open house to show off some of their projects, and I got to show my project during this period. The visitors were mostly congressmen and other notables, and I was really scared of giving my presentation. I went on to other things.

[Assistant] Mr. Yeates, tell us how your experience from World War II and being a pilot helped you in your job at NACA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really, it didn’t help me at all, because in World War II I was a troop carrier pilot. We towed gliders and dropped paratroops in combat. Luckily I only had some bullet holes in my aircraft, I didn’t get shot down or anything. But really I’d been interested in aeronautics all my life. I had built model planes as a boy and young man coming up.\n\n I decided I wanted to go into aeronautics. The recruiters came by Mississippi State [University] where I was going to school, and they were looking for pilots, and so I passed the physical, and they told me, “Well, we’ll see you later.” Then I got into the Army Air Corps and graduated, got my pilot’s wings, and of course went into military service. Then when I came out I went to college again and then I was hired by NACA.\n\n I went through all my aviation cadet training in Mississippi.

[Assistant] All the way through?

[User] All the way through. I went through Madison, Mississippi, Primary, Greenville, Mississippi, Basic, and Columbus, Mississippi, Advanced. I only lived 15 miles away in Aberdeen, Mississippi. Since I knew the commandant in basic, he said, “Would you like to go to your hometown for advanced training?” I said, “Yes, sir.”

[Assistant] That was nice. Kept you from getting homesick, anyway.

[User] I guess so. I did go to Texas when I was in the Army Air Corps. I trained glider pilots at Lubbock, Texas, that’s just a side effect.

[Assistant] Tell us about your first impressions when you first got to Langley Field and the different type of facilities there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the way through. I went through Madison, Mississippi, Primary, Greenville, Mississippi, Basic, and Columbus, Mississippi, Advanced. I only lived 15 miles away in Aberdeen, Mississippi. Since I knew the commandant in basic, he said, “Would you like to go to your hometown for advanced training?” I said, “Yes, sir.”

[Assistant] That was nice. Kept you from getting homesick, anyway.

[User] I guess so. I did go to Texas when I was in the Army Air Corps. I trained glider pilots at Lubbock, Texas, that’s just a side effect.

[Assistant] Tell us about your first impressions when you first got to Langley Field and the different type of facilities there.

[User] They had hired I don’t know how many, maybe 1,000, engineers at that time because they were reinvigorating NACA. A lot of the people had stayed on during the war because it allowed them to be deferred. They had a program that you went once a week to be told all about NACA and what they did. We did that for probably six months to be indoctrinated into NACA.

[Assistant] Did you get to somewhat choose what area you wanted to go into? Or did they place and reassign you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess so. I did go to Texas when I was in the Army Air Corps. I trained glider pilots at Lubbock, Texas, that’s just a side effect.

[Assistant] Tell us about your first impressions when you first got to Langley Field and the different type of facilities there.

[User] They had hired I don’t know how many, maybe 1,000, engineers at that time because they were reinvigorating NACA. A lot of the people had stayed on during the war because it allowed them to be deferred. They had a program that you went once a week to be told all about NACA and what they did. We did that for probably six months to be indoctrinated into NACA.

[Assistant] Did you get to somewhat choose what area you wanted to go into? Or did they place and reassign you?

[User] No, you were placed. Most of the time you were placed by your supervisor. My supervisor at that time was Tom [Thomas J.] Voglewede. He’s probably dead by now. In fact I don’t know, most of the people I know are dead.

[Assistant] You mentioned one assignment. What are some of the other areas that you worked in that you were interested in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It entailed taking the helicopter and flying it through different categories. They have transition, vortex-ring state, landing approach, yawed flight, that sort of thing. To see how the helicopter responded to these things.\n\n Then what they did, we had bought vibration testing equipment, and so George Brooks used this to hook up. We took the helicopter over to the Structures Division and they would hook up these vibration devices to get the aircraft to respond in its natural modes. Then they would use these to calculate what they thought you would get in the actual flight helicopter.

[Assistant] Did you actually fly the helicopter yourself then?

[User] No. It takes a real qualified person to fly a helicopter.

[Assistant] I was curious if they had taught you how to do it.

[User] I had flown. Later when I worked for the Army, when I went up to visit contractors, yes, they would let me fly the helicopter.

[Assistant] I knew it was totally different from flying a military plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It takes a real qualified person to fly a helicopter.

[Assistant] I was curious if they had taught you how to do it.

[User] I had flown. Later when I worked for the Army, when I went up to visit contractors, yes, they would let me fly the helicopter.

[Assistant] I knew it was totally different from flying a military plane.

[User] Oh, it’s entirely different, yes.

[Assistant] I thought that was a pretty good learning curve, you were able to manage that, but you just made sure that those experiments—you were in charge of the experiments that went out on those helicopters.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had flown. Later when I worked for the Army, when I went up to visit contractors, yes, they would let me fly the helicopter.

[Assistant] I knew it was totally different from flying a military plane.

[User] Oh, it’s entirely different, yes.

[Assistant] I thought that was a pretty good learning curve, you were able to manage that, but you just made sure that those experiments—you were in charge of the experiments that went out on those helicopters.

[User] The Army was pretty good about giving us aircraft. We got an H-34, we got an F-80, in different experiments. Then we got the Chinook helicopter.\n\n Now when I flew in the F-80, I flew with the pilot to see how it felt. I’m jumping back. I had to go over to the Air Force and get checked out in a G [gravity] seat simulator, which they would shoot you up in a G seat to about 5G or something like that, to see if you were physically qualified to go along on the flight. Then after I did this they qualified me to fly. I went up in the F-80 on one of the experiments. I went up in the F-80 and we went through a high Mach number .75 and I got to experience how it felt in buffeting.\n\n We also had equipped the pilot. We had put instruments on his head to measure how it affected him. I can’t think of the name right now. It has a name for it. It’s a medical name about how the pilot felt in the buffeting.

[Assistant] That’s pretty interesting. You were running experiments on the aircraft itself but at the same time were able to see what effects that had on the pilot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it’s entirely different, yes.

[Assistant] I thought that was a pretty good learning curve, you were able to manage that, but you just made sure that those experiments—you were in charge of the experiments that went out on those helicopters.

[User] The Army was pretty good about giving us aircraft. We got an H-34, we got an F-80, in different experiments. Then we got the Chinook helicopter.\n\n Now when I flew in the F-80, I flew with the pilot to see how it felt. I’m jumping back. I had to go over to the Air Force and get checked out in a G [gravity] seat simulator, which they would shoot you up in a G seat to about 5G or something like that, to see if you were physically qualified to go along on the flight. Then after I did this they qualified me to fly. I went up in the F-80 on one of the experiments. I went up in the F-80 and we went through a high Mach number .75 and I got to experience how it felt in buffeting.\n\n We also had equipped the pilot. We had put instruments on his head to measure how it affected him. I can’t think of the name right now. It has a name for it. It’s a medical name about how the pilot felt in the buffeting.

[Assistant] That’s pretty interesting. You were running experiments on the aircraft itself but at the same time were able to see what effects that had on the pilot.

[User] Yes. Oh, encephalography I think is the term.

[Assistant] Was that part of your overall experiment? Or was that part of someone else’s experiment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Army was pretty good about giving us aircraft. We got an H-34, we got an F-80, in different experiments. Then we got the Chinook helicopter.\n\n Now when I flew in the F-80, I flew with the pilot to see how it felt. I’m jumping back. I had to go over to the Air Force and get checked out in a G [gravity] seat simulator, which they would shoot you up in a G seat to about 5G or something like that, to see if you were physically qualified to go along on the flight. Then after I did this they qualified me to fly. I went up in the F-80 on one of the experiments. I went up in the F-80 and we went through a high Mach number .75 and I got to experience how it felt in buffeting.\n\n We also had equipped the pilot. We had put instruments on his head to measure how it affected him. I can’t think of the name right now. It has a name for it. It’s a medical name about how the pilot felt in the buffeting.

[Assistant] That’s pretty interesting. You were running experiments on the aircraft itself but at the same time were able to see what effects that had on the pilot.

[User] Yes. Oh, encephalography I think is the term.

[Assistant] Was that part of your overall experiment? Or was that part of someone else’s experiment?

[User] That was just a side effect.

[Assistant] Just a side effect. The helicopter and then you were just talking about the F-80.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, encephalography I think is the term.

[Assistant] Was that part of your overall experiment? Or was that part of someone else’s experiment?

[User] That was just a side effect.

[Assistant] Just a side effect. The helicopter and then you were just talking about the F-80.

[User] Yes, first we flew the F-80, and then I was then assigned after we did those experiments. I was assigned to Gustafson for the helicopters. Before I left there we did some “Flight Measurements of the Vibration Experienced by a Tandem Helicopter in Transition, Vortex-Ring State, Landing, Approach, and Yawed Flight.” Came out in September ‘58 just before I left.

[Assistant] When did you leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was just a side effect.

[Assistant] Just a side effect. The helicopter and then you were just talking about the F-80.

[User] Yes, first we flew the F-80, and then I was then assigned after we did those experiments. I was assigned to Gustafson for the helicopters. Before I left there we did some “Flight Measurements of the Vibration Experienced by a Tandem Helicopter in Transition, Vortex-Ring State, Landing, Approach, and Yawed Flight.” Came out in September ‘58 just before I left.

[Assistant] When did you leave?

[User] I went on to greener pastures October 1st, 1958, which was the day NACA became NASA.

[Assistant] When others were transitioning over you started a new job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, first we flew the F-80, and then I was then assigned after we did those experiments. I was assigned to Gustafson for the helicopters. Before I left there we did some “Flight Measurements of the Vibration Experienced by a Tandem Helicopter in Transition, Vortex-Ring State, Landing, Approach, and Yawed Flight.” Came out in September ‘58 just before I left.

[Assistant] When did you leave?

[User] I went on to greener pastures October 1st, 1958, which was the day NACA became NASA.

[Assistant] When others were transitioning over you started a new job.

[User] The Army over at Fort Eustis hired a lot of NACA people. NACA trained them, see, and then the Army was able to offer them more pay. But I also had a lot of programs with NASA after I went to work for the Army.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Could you share some of those and talk about that some?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Army over at Fort Eustis hired a lot of NACA people. NACA trained them, see, and then the Army was able to offer them more pay. But I also had a lot of programs with NASA after I went to work for the Army.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Could you share some of those and talk about that some?

[User] Yes. In October of ’58 I went over to AVLABS, which was the Army Aviation Materiel Laboratories at Fort Eustis. They had taken over the aeronautics work that the Army needed to do. The people at Wright Field [Wright-Patterson Air Force Base] had been doing it for the Army and so the Army decided that they’d want to do their own aeronautical research. We did the 6.2 research at Fort Eustis, which is applied research.\n\n In applied research you generally make models of the thing you want to investigate, whereas in basics it’s all analytical, it’s all that way. The first project that we had, we went back and came up with a project with Gustafson at NASA; you’re not interested in that though, are you?

[Assistant] Oh, sure.

[User] NASA had always wanted to measure the flight loads on a helicopter rotor blade. The Army had the money to get Sikorsky Aircraft to build a special blade that had pressure transducers all along the blade and crosswise, spanwise too, across the aerodynamic shape of the blade. I was the project engineer on that. I used to go to Sikorsky about once a month to keep up with the project.

[Assistant] That was an interesting time when all this new innovation was coming out, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Then later we had a project. The Army wanted to measure the aircraft landing loads on rough terrain operations. They teamed up with NASA. They have a Landing Loads Section over there which has a track, landing loads track. We brought up a carload of Mississippi mud. Can you imagine that? Put it out on the track to test. [McDonnell] Douglas was the contractor for the Army. They had a landing gear which we then tested on the Mississippi mud, which is rough as heck, pretty rough. That was a project that somebody at NASA wrote a report. NASA always had to write a report on their work before you could get in their good graces. Douglas Aircraft wrote the Army report.\n\n Then another program we had with Langley was—I don’t know whether you ever heard of it or not. But Lockheed built the rigid rotor helicopter. When it became a prototype the Army was going to use it as one of their helicopters in the fleet. But the rigid rotor had an aeroelastic problem and it disintegrated in flight one time, so that killed the Army project. They didn’t develop that helicopter at all. But we did the model testing in the Freon Tunnel. Have you ever heard of the Freon Tunnel?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We did the model testing with Lockheed in California, and they built the model and brought it to Langley to test in the Freon Tunnel, and that was part of the overall project. That was the type two—that was the experimental part of the program, before you actually built a prototype.\n\n Then we had another project. Trying to think of all these projects we had with NASA. Of course all these helicopters, the Air Force in those days did loan them to NASA for their use, which is what they do now.

[Assistant] Was that a mutual benefit that NASA learned as well as the Army had the research done on those?

[User] Oh yes. I don’t know whether the Army got much out of it, but they learned about buffeting, they learned about flight accelerations, vibration. They learned about all these things in working with NASA.

[Assistant] Vibration is a pretty important facet in flying, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did the model testing with Lockheed in California, and they built the model and brought it to Langley to test in the Freon Tunnel, and that was part of the overall project. That was the type two—that was the experimental part of the program, before you actually built a prototype.\n\n Then we had another project. Trying to think of all these projects we had with NASA. Of course all these helicopters, the Air Force in those days did loan them to NASA for their use, which is what they do now.

[Assistant] Was that a mutual benefit that NASA learned as well as the Army had the research done on those?

[User] Oh yes. I don’t know whether the Army got much out of it, but they learned about buffeting, they learned about flight accelerations, vibration. They learned about all these things in working with NASA.

[Assistant] Vibration is a pretty important facet in flying, isn’t it?

[User] Oh yes. They learned a lot about it now and are able to design the helicopters now to minimize the vibration. I’m trying to think of another project here. George Brooks and I worked a lot together. He finally became—I think he became head of the Structures Division, before he left. He came in one day and went to his personal papers and looked at it and said, “Golly, I think I’m going to retire.” He retired the same day. That’s the story I’m told.

[Assistant] Man could make a decision, couldn’t he? Pretty confident in that. You were there almost 10 years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I don’t know whether the Army got much out of it, but they learned about buffeting, they learned about flight accelerations, vibration. They learned about all these things in working with NASA.

[Assistant] Vibration is a pretty important facet in flying, isn’t it?

[User] Oh yes. They learned a lot about it now and are able to design the helicopters now to minimize the vibration. I’m trying to think of another project here. George Brooks and I worked a lot together. He finally became—I think he became head of the Structures Division, before he left. He came in one day and went to his personal papers and looked at it and said, “Golly, I think I’m going to retire.” He retired the same day. That’s the story I’m told.

[Assistant] Man could make a decision, couldn’t he? Pretty confident in that. You were there almost 10 years?

[User] Eleven years, yeah.

[Assistant] Eleven years, okay. During that time period it not only transitioned to NASA of course, but the space age was starting to come up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. They learned a lot about it now and are able to design the helicopters now to minimize the vibration. I’m trying to think of another project here. George Brooks and I worked a lot together. He finally became—I think he became head of the Structures Division, before he left. He came in one day and went to his personal papers and looked at it and said, “Golly, I think I’m going to retire.” He retired the same day. That’s the story I’m told.

[Assistant] Man could make a decision, couldn’t he? Pretty confident in that. You were there almost 10 years?

[User] Eleven years, yeah.

[Assistant] Eleven years, okay. During that time period it not only transitioned to NASA of course, but the space age was starting to come up.

[User] Yes. Before I left they were testing doing some preliminary space work, space testing.

[Assistant] Were you involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eleven years, yeah.

[Assistant] Eleven years, okay. During that time period it not only transitioned to NASA of course, but the space age was starting to come up.

[User] Yes. Before I left they were testing doing some preliminary space work, space testing.

[Assistant] Were you involved?

[User] No, I wasn’t involved.

[Assistant] Were you aware that they were doing it as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Before I left they were testing doing some preliminary space work, space testing.

[Assistant] Were you involved?

[User] No, I wasn’t involved.

[Assistant] Were you aware that they were doing it as well?

[User] I was in the aeronautical area. No, we pretty much kept separated. You did your thing, we did our thing, but somebody kept up with what you were doing so that you didn’t duplicate.

[Assistant] The reports that were written. Were people like you, if you wanted to go to the library and read those, were they accessible for you to learn from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn’t involved.

[Assistant] Were you aware that they were doing it as well?

[User] I was in the aeronautical area. No, we pretty much kept separated. You did your thing, we did our thing, but somebody kept up with what you were doing so that you didn’t duplicate.

[Assistant] The reports that were written. Were people like you, if you wanted to go to the library and read those, were they accessible for you to learn from?

[User] They’re still in the library. No. It’s hard to get hold of reports now. I went to the Internet and pulled up some of this. In fact I’ve written—I couldn’t pull them up though. I had trouble pulling them up. But you could go to the NASA Library and ask for these reports. Give me all the reports under my name, and they could probably print them right out.

[Assistant] It’s good to know that people can still get to the work that you did. I’m sure it’s still useful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the aeronautical area. No, we pretty much kept separated. You did your thing, we did our thing, but somebody kept up with what you were doing so that you didn’t duplicate.

[Assistant] The reports that were written. Were people like you, if you wanted to go to the library and read those, were they accessible for you to learn from?

[User] They’re still in the library. No. It’s hard to get hold of reports now. I went to the Internet and pulled up some of this. In fact I’ve written—I couldn’t pull them up though. I had trouble pulling them up. But you could go to the NASA Library and ask for these reports. Give me all the reports under my name, and they could probably print them right out.

[Assistant] It’s good to know that people can still get to the work that you did. I’m sure it’s still useful.

[User] Of course it’s been proceeded by now. They’ve learned a lot more.

[Assistant] Served as a good foundation though, built upon, and then people built from you as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t understand why the history part of NASA at Headquarters didn’t come up with a history program before everybody passed along.

[Assistant] I know.

[User] I know you all are contractors, aren’t you?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] See, I’m pretty perceptive.

[Assistant] I think you are. You didn’t have any interest in working with the Space Task Group or the people who were starting to form?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know you all are contractors, aren’t you?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] See, I’m pretty perceptive.

[Assistant] I think you are. You didn’t have any interest in working with the Space Task Group or the people who were starting to form?

[User] I wasn’t asked to.

[Assistant] Would you have liked to have moved to that part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, I’m pretty perceptive.

[Assistant] I think you are. You didn’t have any interest in working with the Space Task Group or the people who were starting to form?

[User] I wasn’t asked to.

[Assistant] Would you have liked to have moved to that part?

[User] No, I was more attuned with what I’d been doing. A lot of people that I worked with had moved from NACA, NASA, mostly NACA, but then later some came from NASA.

[Assistant] It sounds like you still had friends that you had from there like Mr. Brooks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t asked to.

[Assistant] Would you have liked to have moved to that part?

[User] No, I was more attuned with what I’d been doing. A lot of people that I worked with had moved from NACA, NASA, mostly NACA, but then later some came from NASA.

[Assistant] It sounds like you still had friends that you had from there like Mr. Brooks.

[User] I don’t know whether he’s still alive yet.

[Assistant] But you still worked with him after you left NACA? Did you all do any more projects together between the Army and NACA with Mr. Brooks? Or just other ones?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know whether he’s still alive yet.

[Assistant] But you still worked with him after you left NACA? Did you all do any more projects together between the Army and NACA with Mr. Brooks? Or just other ones?

[User] No, I don’t think so. The only one—no, we did with mostly with people in Gustafson’s group.

[Assistant] The helicopters?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It’s interesting. How long were you with the Army at Fort Eustis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so. The only one—no, we did with mostly with people in Gustafson’s group.

[Assistant] The helicopters?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It’s interesting. How long were you with the Army at Fort Eustis?

[User] I was 20 years. I retired as a GS-15.

[Assistant] Did you do other projects other than helicopters? Did they move you on to other things there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It’s interesting. How long were you with the Army at Fort Eustis?

[User] I was 20 years. I retired as a GS-15.

[Assistant] Did you do other projects other than helicopters? Did they move you on to other things there?

[User] No, I was Chief of the Aeromechanics group. We did projects in aircraft, helicopter performance or V/STOL [Vertical and/or Short Takeoff and Landing]. We did performance, vibrations, structures studies. Stability and control, all of those more or less 6.2 research. Most all of our work was with contractors. In other words the Army didn’t do any of their own work. The contractor would come in with a project that he wanted to sell. If you liked it, and you thought it would be of benefit to the Army, then you could promote it. We had the money. I had a couple million dollars every year to do research projects. Then we could sell the program and contract it. Then I had about 15 engineers that worked for me and they would take one of these projects. Or sometimes they would come up with their own project and try to promote it. We did work in a more varied range of programs.\n\n The Army basic research headquarters is in Durham, North Carolina. But they do the why the grass is green and all that kind of stuff, the basic research stuff. We used to work with them a lot, but that’s not NACA.

[Assistant] Is there a project that you remember though?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 20 years. I retired as a GS-15.

[Assistant] Did you do other projects other than helicopters? Did they move you on to other things there?

[User] No, I was Chief of the Aeromechanics group. We did projects in aircraft, helicopter performance or V/STOL [Vertical and/or Short Takeoff and Landing]. We did performance, vibrations, structures studies. Stability and control, all of those more or less 6.2 research. Most all of our work was with contractors. In other words the Army didn’t do any of their own work. The contractor would come in with a project that he wanted to sell. If you liked it, and you thought it would be of benefit to the Army, then you could promote it. We had the money. I had a couple million dollars every year to do research projects. Then we could sell the program and contract it. Then I had about 15 engineers that worked for me and they would take one of these projects. Or sometimes they would come up with their own project and try to promote it. We did work in a more varied range of programs.\n\n The Army basic research headquarters is in Durham, North Carolina. But they do the why the grass is green and all that kind of stuff, the basic research stuff. We used to work with them a lot, but that’s not NACA.

[Assistant] Is there a project that you remember though?

[User] The one I remember is this basic flight data that you get from a specially instrumented blade on the helicopter, because it was quite technically detailed.

[Assistant] Was it a long-ranging project that took years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was Chief of the Aeromechanics group. We did projects in aircraft, helicopter performance or V/STOL [Vertical and/or Short Takeoff and Landing]. We did performance, vibrations, structures studies. Stability and control, all of those more or less 6.2 research. Most all of our work was with contractors. In other words the Army didn’t do any of their own work. The contractor would come in with a project that he wanted to sell. If you liked it, and you thought it would be of benefit to the Army, then you could promote it. We had the money. I had a couple million dollars every year to do research projects. Then we could sell the program and contract it. Then I had about 15 engineers that worked for me and they would take one of these projects. Or sometimes they would come up with their own project and try to promote it. We did work in a more varied range of programs.\n\n The Army basic research headquarters is in Durham, North Carolina. But they do the why the grass is green and all that kind of stuff, the basic research stuff. We used to work with them a lot, but that’s not NACA.

[Assistant] Is there a project that you remember though?

[User] The one I remember is this basic flight data that you get from a specially instrumented blade on the helicopter, because it was quite technically detailed.

[Assistant] Was it a long-ranging project that took years?

[User] I don’t know. I left I think before they really flight-tested the helicopter. But someone at NASA wrote a report on it, I’m sure. But I don’t know. Who are the other people you’ve found that you—any that I might know?

[Assistant] I don’t know. We’re talking to Bill [Wilmer H.] Reed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one I remember is this basic flight data that you get from a specially instrumented blade on the helicopter, because it was quite technically detailed.

[Assistant] Was it a long-ranging project that took years?

[User] I don’t know. I left I think before they really flight-tested the helicopter. But someone at NASA wrote a report on it, I’m sure. But I don’t know. Who are the other people you’ve found that you—any that I might know?

[Assistant] I don’t know. We’re talking to Bill [Wilmer H.] Reed.

[User] I talked with Bill Reed at a recent alumni meeting. His wife died recently.\n\n We worked together. We used to sell insulation on the side, Bill Reed. Ask him if he remembers the aluminum foil insulation we used to sell.

[Assistant] I will do that. I will do that. Branching out, that’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I left I think before they really flight-tested the helicopter. But someone at NASA wrote a report on it, I’m sure. But I don’t know. Who are the other people you’ve found that you—any that I might know?

[Assistant] I don’t know. We’re talking to Bill [Wilmer H.] Reed.

[User] I talked with Bill Reed at a recent alumni meeting. His wife died recently.\n\n We worked together. We used to sell insulation on the side, Bill Reed. Ask him if he remembers the aluminum foil insulation we used to sell.

[Assistant] I will do that. I will do that. Branching out, that’s right.

[User] You got any more?

[Assistant]
Let’s see. We talked to—trying to think, Sandra. Who else have we talked to this weekend?

Bill [William C.] Woods.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I talked with Bill Reed at a recent alumni meeting. His wife died recently.\n\n We worked together. We used to sell insulation on the side, Bill Reed. Ask him if he remembers the aluminum foil insulation we used to sell.

[Assistant] I will do that. I will do that. Branching out, that’s right.

[User] You got any more?

[Assistant]
Let’s see. We talked to—trying to think, Sandra. Who else have we talked to this weekend?

Bill [William C.] Woods.

[User] No, I don’t remember him.

[Assistant] He worked the wind tunnel. He was a wind tunnel man.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You got any more?

[Assistant]
Let’s see. We talked to—trying to think, Sandra. Who else have we talked to this weekend?

Bill [William C.] Woods.

[User] No, I don’t remember him.

[Assistant] He worked the wind tunnel. He was a wind tunnel man.

[User] Oh, we did some other work with the Army. We put a full-scale helicopter in the [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] 40-by-80 Wind Tunnel. It was probably an add-on to this program where we built the special blade. But I wasn’t involved with that.

[Assistant] That must have been something to see for those who were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t remember him.

[Assistant] He worked the wind tunnel. He was a wind tunnel man.

[User] Oh, we did some other work with the Army. We put a full-scale helicopter in the [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] 40-by-80 Wind Tunnel. It was probably an add-on to this program where we built the special blade. But I wasn’t involved with that.

[Assistant] That must have been something to see for those who were there.

[User] Yeah. Ames finally doubled the size of the tunnel, they made it 80 by 160. Now it’s closed down.

[Assistant] Did you work much directly with the wind tunnels here at Langley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we did some other work with the Army. We put a full-scale helicopter in the [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] 40-by-80 Wind Tunnel. It was probably an add-on to this program where we built the special blade. But I wasn’t involved with that.

[Assistant] That must have been something to see for those who were there.

[User] Yeah. Ames finally doubled the size of the tunnel, they made it 80 by 160. Now it’s closed down.

[Assistant] Did you work much directly with the wind tunnels here at Langley?

[User] Oh yes, sure. We knew the people that ran them. Is [Robert W.] Boswinkle still living?

[Assistant] I don’t know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Ames finally doubled the size of the tunnel, they made it 80 by 160. Now it’s closed down.

[Assistant] Did you work much directly with the wind tunnels here at Langley?

[User] Oh yes, sure. We knew the people that ran them. Is [Robert W.] Boswinkle still living?

[Assistant] I don’t know.

[User] We worked with him. He was in charge of the Freon tunnel I think at one time.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask Mr. Duncan McIver. He’s in charge of the Alumni Association, so he probably would know more. He came in I think about the time you were leaving, because he was there the last three months of NACA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, sure. We knew the people that ran them. Is [Robert W.] Boswinkle still living?

[Assistant] I don’t know.

[User] We worked with him. He was in charge of the Freon tunnel I think at one time.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask Mr. Duncan McIver. He’s in charge of the Alumni Association, so he probably would know more. He came in I think about the time you were leaving, because he was there the last three months of NACA.

[User] I guess I knew a lot of the old-timers like Mel Gough and John Bailey.

[Assistant] We also spoke with Bertram [D.] Aaron. He was in the IRD, the Instrument Research Division.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We worked with him. He was in charge of the Freon tunnel I think at one time.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask Mr. Duncan McIver. He’s in charge of the Alumni Association, so he probably would know more. He came in I think about the time you were leaving, because he was there the last three months of NACA.

[User] I guess I knew a lot of the old-timers like Mel Gough and John Bailey.

[Assistant] We also spoke with Bertram [D.] Aaron. He was in the IRD, the Instrument Research Division.

[User] No, I don’t know him. That was a big facility.

[Assistant] I know you mentioned getting the telemetry, and they worked on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I knew a lot of the old-timers like Mel Gough and John Bailey.

[Assistant] We also spoke with Bertram [D.] Aaron. He was in the IRD, the Instrument Research Division.

[User] No, I don’t know him. That was a big facility.

[Assistant] I know you mentioned getting the telemetry, and they worked on that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] A lot of folks during that time period.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] A lot of folks during that time period.

[User] I think they had about 3,000 engineers then but I don’t know exactly. But it was a time when they were refurbishing, because I know the people that used to work there, that had worked there during the war, they weren’t allowed to take any leave or anything like that. I guess they got deferment because they were considered—

[Assistant] Essential?

[User] No, they were considered—they made them an Army private or something like that. I don’t know all the details. But in the area most of the men were young and single. The men would rent a whole house, and then they would do their own meals and everything. Have you heard about that?

[Assistant] No, go ahead, tell us, it’s interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they had about 3,000 engineers then but I don’t know exactly. But it was a time when they were refurbishing, because I know the people that used to work there, that had worked there during the war, they weren’t allowed to take any leave or anything like that. I guess they got deferment because they were considered—

[Assistant] Essential?

[User] No, they were considered—they made them an Army private or something like that. I don’t know all the details. But in the area most of the men were young and single. The men would rent a whole house, and then they would do their own meals and everything. Have you heard about that?

[Assistant] No, go ahead, tell us, it’s interesting.

[User] They would rent a house and then they would cook their own meals and all of them would live in the house, like a boardinghouse. Then the women would do the same thing. A lot of the people lived on Elizabeth Road in Hampton. We rode into work. I was the only one that had a car in my group. This is still when I was at NACA. But we would ride-pool. I would take them in. I think I did it five days a week for a long time until Chrysler started selling cars again, so I think Dodge came out early with one that you could buy. We’d ride in every day to work.

[Assistant] Did you bring that car from Alabama when you moved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they were considered—they made them an Army private or something like that. I don’t know all the details. But in the area most of the men were young and single. The men would rent a whole house, and then they would do their own meals and everything. Have you heard about that?

[Assistant] No, go ahead, tell us, it’s interesting.

[User] They would rent a house and then they would cook their own meals and all of them would live in the house, like a boardinghouse. Then the women would do the same thing. A lot of the people lived on Elizabeth Road in Hampton. We rode into work. I was the only one that had a car in my group. This is still when I was at NACA. But we would ride-pool. I would take them in. I think I did it five days a week for a long time until Chrysler started selling cars again, so I think Dodge came out early with one that you could buy. We’d ride in every day to work.

[Assistant] Did you bring that car from Alabama when you moved?

[User] I bought it when I was in the Army at Little Rock, Arkansas, for $800.

[Assistant] Must have been a good car if it made it in from Arkansas all the way out here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would rent a house and then they would cook their own meals and all of them would live in the house, like a boardinghouse. Then the women would do the same thing. A lot of the people lived on Elizabeth Road in Hampton. We rode into work. I was the only one that had a car in my group. This is still when I was at NACA. But we would ride-pool. I would take them in. I think I did it five days a week for a long time until Chrysler started selling cars again, so I think Dodge came out early with one that you could buy. We’d ride in every day to work.

[Assistant] Did you bring that car from Alabama when you moved?

[User] I bought it when I was in the Army at Little Rock, Arkansas, for $800.

[Assistant] Must have been a good car if it made it in from Arkansas all the way out here.

[User] It was a good car, yeah. I think it had about 19,000 miles on it when I bought it.

[Assistant] What kind was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I bought it when I was in the Army at Little Rock, Arkansas, for $800.

[Assistant] Must have been a good car if it made it in from Arkansas all the way out here.

[User] It was a good car, yeah. I think it had about 19,000 miles on it when I bought it.

[Assistant] What kind was it?

[User] Chevrolet.

[Assistant] I’m sure people were glad you had a way to get them all to work and back. You said your wife came with you. Was she a schoolteacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a good car, yeah. I think it had about 19,000 miles on it when I bought it.

[Assistant] What kind was it?

[User] Chevrolet.

[Assistant] I’m sure people were glad you had a way to get them all to work and back. You said your wife came with you. Was she a schoolteacher?

[User] Yes. During the war she worked on the Manhattan Project. You ever heard of the Manhattan Project?

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chevrolet.

[Assistant] I’m sure people were glad you had a way to get them all to work and back. You said your wife came with you. Was she a schoolteacher?

[User] Yes. During the war she worked on the Manhattan Project. You ever heard of the Manhattan Project?

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Yes.

[User] At Oak Ridge [Tennessee]. She had all these professors and head of departments that came in and she’d have to show them how to do what she was doing.

[Assistant] Was she a mathematician or scientist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. During the war she worked on the Manhattan Project. You ever heard of the Manhattan Project?

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Yes.

[User] At Oak Ridge [Tennessee]. She had all these professors and head of departments that came in and she’d have to show them how to do what she was doing.

[Assistant] Was she a mathematician or scientist?

[User] No, we both went to college together. Western Kentucky University now, but it was Western Kentucky State Teachers College then. Yes, she was smart. Smarter than I was.

[Assistant] That’s interesting that you were in Mississippi. You grew up in Mississippi, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was raised in that house. That’s an antebellum home.

[Assistant] It’s beautiful.

[User] It’s a national landmark. General Reuben Davis’s house. He was as general in the Confederate army.

[Assistant] Beautiful.

[User] There are all the medals I got while I was in the service.

[Assistant] I saw those when I walked in. Nice memories. So you got here and decided to stay. Did you live in Newport News or did you live in Hampton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a national landmark. General Reuben Davis’s house. He was as general in the Confederate army.

[Assistant] Beautiful.

[User] There are all the medals I got while I was in the service.

[Assistant] I saw those when I walked in. Nice memories. So you got here and decided to stay. Did you live in Newport News or did you live in Hampton?

[User] You ever heard of Marlbank? You’re not from this area.

[Assistant] I’m not from here. I use a map.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are all the medals I got while I was in the service.

[Assistant] I saw those when I walked in. Nice memories. So you got here and decided to stay. Did you live in Newport News or did you live in Hampton?

[User] You ever heard of Marlbank? You’re not from this area.

[Assistant] I’m not from here. I use a map.

[User] It’s over in York County. I built my own house by my own hands and hired people that’d come. They would come and help from NACA. They had a lot of people that were good workers. For $1.25 an hour you could hire them. We’d do plumbing work, do heating work, air conditioning, all that sort of stuff. Then later when my mother moved up here from Mississippi I built her a house on my property. We lived on the water.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You ever heard of Marlbank? You’re not from this area.

[Assistant] I’m not from here. I use a map.

[User] It’s over in York County. I built my own house by my own hands and hired people that’d come. They would come and help from NACA. They had a lot of people that were good workers. For $1.25 an hour you could hire them. We’d do plumbing work, do heating work, air conditioning, all that sort of stuff. Then later when my mother moved up here from Mississippi I built her a house on my property. We lived on the water.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s nice.

[User] Yes. When I left it I sold it for $1 million.

[Assistant]
Goodness gracious.

It was a good investment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s over in York County. I built my own house by my own hands and hired people that’d come. They would come and help from NACA. They had a lot of people that were good workers. For $1.25 an hour you could hire them. We’d do plumbing work, do heating work, air conditioning, all that sort of stuff. Then later when my mother moved up here from Mississippi I built her a house on my property. We lived on the water.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s nice.

[User] Yes. When I left it I sold it for $1 million.

[Assistant]
Goodness gracious.

It was a good investment.

[User] I built it for $17,000.

[Assistant]
It was a good location.

Good return on your investment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I built it for $17,000.

[Assistant]
It was a good location.

Good return on your investment.

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] I’m telling you all these things. My memory is pretty good.

[Assistant] It is, yes, it is good. What other things were going on when you moved here, you and your wife? Did you all live on Elizabeth Road? You mentioned a lot of people lived out there as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s right.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] I’m telling you all these things. My memory is pretty good.

[Assistant] It is, yes, it is good. What other things were going on when you moved here, you and your wife? Did you all live on Elizabeth Road? You mentioned a lot of people lived out there as well.

[User] Yes. There was another road there that some of the women lived on nearby, but I think it’s Sussex or I don’t remember what it was. But anyway there were a lot of young people here. Not many people married at that time. They did later on. I got married during the war, but luckily I made it home.

[Assistant] Yes, that is a good thing. What year did you join the war?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m telling you all these things. My memory is pretty good.

[Assistant] It is, yes, it is good. What other things were going on when you moved here, you and your wife? Did you all live on Elizabeth Road? You mentioned a lot of people lived out there as well.

[User] Yes. There was another road there that some of the women lived on nearby, but I think it’s Sussex or I don’t remember what it was. But anyway there were a lot of young people here. Not many people married at that time. They did later on. I got married during the war, but luckily I made it home.

[Assistant] Yes, that is a good thing. What year did you join the war?

[User] 1941. When the recruiters came around and you looked at all these officers riding around with good-looking girls in these fancy convertibles, I said, “Boy, that’s for me.”

[Assistant] It worked, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There was another road there that some of the women lived on nearby, but I think it’s Sussex or I don’t remember what it was. But anyway there were a lot of young people here. Not many people married at that time. They did later on. I got married during the war, but luckily I made it home.

[Assistant] Yes, that is a good thing. What year did you join the war?

[User] 1941. When the recruiters came around and you looked at all these officers riding around with good-looking girls in these fancy convertibles, I said, “Boy, that’s for me.”

[Assistant] It worked, huh?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Sandra, do you have anything you want to ask?

You mentioned the women lived on whatever road it was you were talking about. A lot of those women were mathematicians and computers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Sandra, do you have anything you want to ask?

You mentioned the women lived on whatever road it was you were talking about. A lot of those women were mathematicians and computers.

[User] We called them computresses. They had these comptometers. Ever heard of comptometers?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] They had those. What they would do is they would write an equation. You would write the equation. Then in columns you would set down each part of the equation. Then they would come out with the answer at the end. It wasn’t until the ’50s I think that NASA Langley, one of the organizations, got a very simple type of computer I think. I can’t remember what it was. Bell Computing or something, I don’t remember. But anyway it was a long time before they actually got computers. We had a lot of women that were mathematical people, had graduated with a math degree, and they hired them as computress. I call them computresses.

[Assistant] Computresses. I like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We called them computresses. They had these comptometers. Ever heard of comptometers?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] They had those. What they would do is they would write an equation. You would write the equation. Then in columns you would set down each part of the equation. Then they would come out with the answer at the end. It wasn’t until the ’50s I think that NASA Langley, one of the organizations, got a very simple type of computer I think. I can’t remember what it was. Bell Computing or something, I don’t remember. But anyway it was a long time before they actually got computers. We had a lot of women that were mathematical people, had graduated with a math degree, and they hired them as computress. I call them computresses.

[Assistant] Computresses. I like that.

[User] You can call them what you want to.

[Assistant]
I don’t think I’ve heard that. I like that, that’s a good term.

Did you ever work closely with anyone in particular in that group or were they in a pool? I know they had pools.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had those. What they would do is they would write an equation. You would write the equation. Then in columns you would set down each part of the equation. Then they would come out with the answer at the end. It wasn’t until the ’50s I think that NASA Langley, one of the organizations, got a very simple type of computer I think. I can’t remember what it was. Bell Computing or something, I don’t remember. But anyway it was a long time before they actually got computers. We had a lot of women that were mathematical people, had graduated with a math degree, and they hired them as computress. I call them computresses.

[Assistant] Computresses. I like that.

[User] You can call them what you want to.

[Assistant]
I don’t think I’ve heard that. I like that, that’s a good term.

Did you ever work closely with anyone in particular in that group or were they in a pool? I know they had pools.

[User] No, no, we didn’t use a pool. We had them in our office. But we had several women, but I can’t remember their names. You have selective memory, and that’s not in my memory bank.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you remember or you have stories about being out there in those early days or during your transition from one to the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can call them what you want to.

[Assistant]
I don’t think I’ve heard that. I like that, that’s a good term.

Did you ever work closely with anyone in particular in that group or were they in a pool? I know they had pools.

[User] No, no, we didn’t use a pool. We had them in our office. But we had several women, but I can’t remember their names. You have selective memory, and that’s not in my memory bank.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you remember or you have stories about being out there in those early days or during your transition from one to the other?

[User] Oh, I remember they had a whirl tower there at Langley which I remember a friend of mine, Paul [J.] Carpenter, who later went to the Army. He was in charge of that whirl tower I think. They made a lot of tests on that. They put a rotor on the whirl tower and they’d whirl it.

[Assistant] Never heard of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, we didn’t use a pool. We had them in our office. But we had several women, but I can’t remember their names. You have selective memory, and that’s not in my memory bank.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you remember or you have stories about being out there in those early days or during your transition from one to the other?

[User] Oh, I remember they had a whirl tower there at Langley which I remember a friend of mine, Paul [J.] Carpenter, who later went to the Army. He was in charge of that whirl tower I think. They made a lot of tests on that. They put a rotor on the whirl tower and they’d whirl it.

[Assistant] Never heard of that.

[User] Whirl tower, yes, oh, they were the big thing back—I know Lockheed built a wonderful one in California.

[Assistant] Did you ever travel? Did they send you out anyplace?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I remember they had a whirl tower there at Langley which I remember a friend of mine, Paul [J.] Carpenter, who later went to the Army. He was in charge of that whirl tower I think. They made a lot of tests on that. They put a rotor on the whirl tower and they’d whirl it.

[Assistant] Never heard of that.

[User] Whirl tower, yes, oh, they were the big thing back—I know Lockheed built a wonderful one in California.

[Assistant] Did you ever travel? Did they send you out anyplace?

[User] NASA was pretty stingy on travel, and they didn’t send you anywhere unless it was really important. The only trip I ever made was in 1956. I gave the results of one of these papers at the Helicopter Society reunion. They actually allowed me to fly, my wife and I, to New York. The hotel now is no longer there.\n\n Another time they loaded up a DC-3 and flew a whole bunch of us to a meeting in Washington [DC]. I think it was a helicopter convention. They wanted to cut costs so they flew us all up in a DC-3. That’s what I flew.

[Assistant] I saw that up there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whirl tower, yes, oh, they were the big thing back—I know Lockheed built a wonderful one in California.

[Assistant] Did you ever travel? Did they send you out anyplace?

[User] NASA was pretty stingy on travel, and they didn’t send you anywhere unless it was really important. The only trip I ever made was in 1956. I gave the results of one of these papers at the Helicopter Society reunion. They actually allowed me to fly, my wife and I, to New York. The hotel now is no longer there.\n\n Another time they loaded up a DC-3 and flew a whole bunch of us to a meeting in Washington [DC]. I think it was a helicopter convention. They wanted to cut costs so they flew us all up in a DC-3. That’s what I flew.

[Assistant] I saw that up there.

[User] Those are called D-Day stripes. The Navy shot down a whole bunch of aircraft in Sicily during World War II, because the Germans had just flown over, and they thought they were the Germans, and so they kept shooting. They shot down a whole bunch of aircraft like that. For D-Day they put the stripes on so the Navy wouldn’t shoot them down. They’re called the D-Day stripes.

[Assistant] That’s good to know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NASA was pretty stingy on travel, and they didn’t send you anywhere unless it was really important. The only trip I ever made was in 1956. I gave the results of one of these papers at the Helicopter Society reunion. They actually allowed me to fly, my wife and I, to New York. The hotel now is no longer there.\n\n Another time they loaded up a DC-3 and flew a whole bunch of us to a meeting in Washington [DC]. I think it was a helicopter convention. They wanted to cut costs so they flew us all up in a DC-3. That’s what I flew.

[Assistant] I saw that up there.

[User] Those are called D-Day stripes. The Navy shot down a whole bunch of aircraft in Sicily during World War II, because the Germans had just flown over, and they thought they were the Germans, and so they kept shooting. They shot down a whole bunch of aircraft like that. For D-Day they put the stripes on so the Navy wouldn’t shoot them down. They’re called the D-Day stripes.

[Assistant] That’s good to know.

[User] Do you know that?

[Assistant] No, but I recognize the plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Those are called D-Day stripes. The Navy shot down a whole bunch of aircraft in Sicily during World War II, because the Germans had just flown over, and they thought they were the Germans, and so they kept shooting. They shot down a whole bunch of aircraft like that. For D-Day they put the stripes on so the Navy wouldn’t shoot them down. They’re called the D-Day stripes.

[Assistant] That’s good to know.

[User] Do you know that?

[Assistant] No, but I recognize the plane.

[User] I got all kinds of stories.

[Assistant] Any more you can think of that you’d like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not about NACA, though.

[Assistant] That’s okay.

[User] One time we were—towards the end of the war, after the—I flew into the Battle of the Bulge and my aircraft towed a glider and dropped my ammunition and gasoline and so on at the drop zone. The Germans were shooting at us with .50-caliber and 20-millimeter cannon, and luckily I only got some small arms fire.

[Assistant] That’s good.

[User] But we made it there and made it back, two hours back, full throttle.

[Assistant] I guess so. Little lighter plane than the one you had going out, I mean coming back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One time we were—towards the end of the war, after the—I flew into the Battle of the Bulge and my aircraft towed a glider and dropped my ammunition and gasoline and so on at the drop zone. The Germans were shooting at us with .50-caliber and 20-millimeter cannon, and luckily I only got some small arms fire.

[Assistant] That’s good.

[User] But we made it there and made it back, two hours back, full throttle.

[Assistant] I guess so. Little lighter plane than the one you had going out, I mean coming back?

[User] No, no, it was the same. When you tow—

[Assistant] You’re towing, that’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it was the same. When you tow—

[Assistant] You’re towing, that’s right.

[User] We were towing in at 400 feet, 90 miles an hour. So you were an easy target. Also I was in Holland, the Holland invasion, which we came over from England and I towed a glider into Holland. Luckily I didn’t get shot down there either. The Germans had flak towers about eye level here. They could shoot right at you.\n\n I went to southern France and flew. We flew a mission to southern France in the middle of the war and the Germans were still in southern France. But it was a milk run, not a shot fired.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Got to see the Rock of Gibraltar though.

[Assistant] Oh, well, that’s interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were towing in at 400 feet, 90 miles an hour. So you were an easy target. Also I was in Holland, the Holland invasion, which we came over from England and I towed a glider into Holland. Luckily I didn’t get shot down there either. The Germans had flak towers about eye level here. They could shoot right at you.\n\n I went to southern France and flew. We flew a mission to southern France in the middle of the war and the Germans were still in southern France. But it was a milk run, not a shot fired.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Got to see the Rock of Gibraltar though.

[Assistant] Oh, well, that’s interesting.

[User] When I was flying over there I got to fly from here through South America across to Ascension Island and across to Africa, and back up the coast to Morocco, and then to England. I had a personal navigator for my aircraft. He kept us on the right track, and we flew the aircraft. It took two weeks.

[Assistant] At least it was a nicer flight than some of the other ones you had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got to see the Rock of Gibraltar though.

[Assistant] Oh, well, that’s interesting.

[User] When I was flying over there I got to fly from here through South America across to Ascension Island and across to Africa, and back up the coast to Morocco, and then to England. I had a personal navigator for my aircraft. He kept us on the right track, and we flew the aircraft. It took two weeks.

[Assistant] At least it was a nicer flight than some of the other ones you had.

[User] Yes, that was a good flight. We did a lot of gasoline. [General George S.] Patton’s Army. Flew a lot of gasoline up for Patton as he was going across Germany. You’d fly up to a dirt field and land. Of course the Germans at that time were on the lookout for aircraft on the ground. That was considered a combat mission because several of the aircraft got shot up on the ground. The Germans still had a few aircraft that they would make little sneak runs and shoot up the aircraft. But luckily I didn’t get shot up.

[Assistant] How many missions did you fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was flying over there I got to fly from here through South America across to Ascension Island and across to Africa, and back up the coast to Morocco, and then to England. I had a personal navigator for my aircraft. He kept us on the right track, and we flew the aircraft. It took two weeks.

[Assistant] At least it was a nicer flight than some of the other ones you had.

[User] Yes, that was a good flight. We did a lot of gasoline. [General George S.] Patton’s Army. Flew a lot of gasoline up for Patton as he was going across Germany. You’d fly up to a dirt field and land. Of course the Germans at that time were on the lookout for aircraft on the ground. That was considered a combat mission because several of the aircraft got shot up on the ground. The Germans still had a few aircraft that they would make little sneak runs and shoot up the aircraft. But luckily I didn’t get shot up.

[Assistant] How many missions did you fly?

[User] About 17, I guess. But these were the big missions, D-Day, and then Holland, and then southern France, and then across the Rhine, those were four big missions. There were as many as 1,350 aircraft towing gliders. It took them an two hours to pass. An armada of such aircraft going into Germany and across the Rhine. Go to the Internet and look it up, it’s really magnificent. You’ll never see it again.

[Assistant] No, never will. Have you been back to any of those places since you returned here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was a good flight. We did a lot of gasoline. [General George S.] Patton’s Army. Flew a lot of gasoline up for Patton as he was going across Germany. You’d fly up to a dirt field and land. Of course the Germans at that time were on the lookout for aircraft on the ground. That was considered a combat mission because several of the aircraft got shot up on the ground. The Germans still had a few aircraft that they would make little sneak runs and shoot up the aircraft. But luckily I didn’t get shot up.

[Assistant] How many missions did you fly?

[User] About 17, I guess. But these were the big missions, D-Day, and then Holland, and then southern France, and then across the Rhine, those were four big missions. There were as many as 1,350 aircraft towing gliders. It took them an two hours to pass. An armada of such aircraft going into Germany and across the Rhine. Go to the Internet and look it up, it’s really magnificent. You’ll never see it again.

[Assistant] No, never will. Have you been back to any of those places since you returned here?

[User] I’ve been to England, I’ve been to Paris, I’ve been to Belgium, and I’ve been to Rome, I’ve been all over the world. I’ve been in 32 countries, personally.

[Assistant] That’s nice. At a better time. It’s good that you were able to go visit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About 17, I guess. But these were the big missions, D-Day, and then Holland, and then southern France, and then across the Rhine, those were four big missions. There were as many as 1,350 aircraft towing gliders. It took them an two hours to pass. An armada of such aircraft going into Germany and across the Rhine. Go to the Internet and look it up, it’s really magnificent. You’ll never see it again.

[Assistant] No, never will. Have you been back to any of those places since you returned here?

[User] I’ve been to England, I’ve been to Paris, I’ve been to Belgium, and I’ve been to Rome, I’ve been all over the world. I’ve been in 32 countries, personally.

[Assistant] That’s nice. At a better time. It’s good that you were able to go visit.

[User] Went to Machu Picchu. You know Machu Picchu, don’t you?

[Assistant] We have a colleague that’s getting ready to go in a couple weeks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve been to England, I’ve been to Paris, I’ve been to Belgium, and I’ve been to Rome, I’ve been all over the world. I’ve been in 32 countries, personally.

[Assistant] That’s nice. At a better time. It’s good that you were able to go visit.

[User] Went to Machu Picchu. You know Machu Picchu, don’t you?

[Assistant] We have a colleague that’s getting ready to go in a couple weeks.

[User] That was my wife’s heart’s desire. Before she died we went to Machu Picchu in South America, all over South America. She died of Alzheimer’s.

[Assistant] I’m glad you all had great times together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know she ... (

[Assistant]
Mary Rephlo) ...Mary called me and asked me ifl could get to the SAA (Society of American Archivists) meeting where they were giving her an award for the institute and I said, "yes," but I had a medical problem at the time and wasn't able to come. I would have liked to. I think the institute deserved the recognition.

It did. Now ...

[User] Oh yes, Ed Weldon was another one ... I took him as co-director and we had ...

[Assistant] Now where did Ed work at that time?

[User] He wasn't in the military ...

[Assistant] So he was in the National Archives ... (


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, Ed Weldon was another one ... I took him as co-director and we had ...

[Assistant] Now where did Ed work at that time?

[User] He wasn't in the military ...

[Assistant] So he was in the National Archives ... (

[User]
oh yes) Because he had left and then at some point ... (

yes, he went back down to Georgia) ... Right. (

We used to talk about his program at Emory where he took his doctorate and compare notes ... it was a lot offun).

[Assistant] What kind oftraining did we have for the staff? The institute is really for people coming from the outside? Internally, when you came, what kind of training program was there and did you participate in it... how did that work?