[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we did. And I can't remember if we were told we had to or it was just so exciting to do the library and the lab. Those were long term projects.

[Assistant] It's kind of an expectation at boarding schools.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was. And Jim coached, uh, track.

[Assistant] What did he coach?

[User]
Track. And I think Jerry coached the soccer. And then I had a wonderful extracurricular thing, but it wasn't with the school. I met, we had friends at a school right on the Tanzanian border, Peace Corps friends, and we went down to meet them. And it was a school that was run by Maryknolls. And there were two American priests, one American nun, and then several Kenyan nuns, Kenyan or Tanzanian. And, um, they, the, the American nun was a nurse or maybe even a nurse midwife. And she had started, and some of the Kenyans were nurses. And so they had started doing a prenatal and well baby clinic where they would go around once a month to four different sites and hold clinics way out in the bush, like 20 miles into the bush from where we lived.

And when they found out I was a med tech, they got very excited and wanted me to participate in this. So went back to the school, talked to the headmaster, and asked him if I could be free on Fridays if I taught all of my classes Monday through Thursday. And he agreed. And so every Friday they would come from Isibania, this town on the border, and pick me up in Father Dave's white Toyota pickup. And with usually the American and one or two Kenyan nuns and myself, we'd pile on the back of the pickup and pick up all these mamas and go off on these tracks and set up this clinic under like just a thatched roof, like maybe a primary school. And I had a microscope that was, that used the sun, of course, as its light source and a hand-cranked urine centrifuge.

[Assistant] Now, that was the Maryknolls, they had all the equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was. And Jim coached, uh, track.

[Assistant] What did he coach?

[User]
Track. And I think Jerry coached the soccer. And then I had a wonderful extracurricular thing, but it wasn't with the school. I met, we had friends at a school right on the Tanzanian border, Peace Corps friends, and we went down to meet them. And it was a school that was run by Maryknolls. And there were two American priests, one American nun, and then several Kenyan nuns, Kenyan or Tanzanian. And, um, they, the, the American nun was a nurse or maybe even a nurse midwife. And she had started, and some of the Kenyans were nurses. And so they had started doing a prenatal and well baby clinic where they would go around once a month to four different sites and hold clinics way out in the bush, like 20 miles into the bush from where we lived.

And when they found out I was a med tech, they got very excited and wanted me to participate in this. So went back to the school, talked to the headmaster, and asked him if I could be free on Fridays if I taught all of my classes Monday through Thursday. And he agreed. And so every Friday they would come from Isibania, this town on the border, and pick me up in Father Dave's white Toyota pickup. And with usually the American and one or two Kenyan nuns and myself, we'd pile on the back of the pickup and pick up all these mamas and go off on these tracks and set up this clinic under like just a thatched roof, like maybe a primary school. And I had a microscope that was, that used the sun, of course, as its light source and a hand-cranked urine centrifuge.

[Assistant] Now, that was the Maryknolls, they had all the equipment?

[User] Well, they had, yeah. Yes, that's right. That was their stuff.

[Assistant] And was that a situation where you had the chance to use more Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they had, yeah. Yes, that's right. That was their stuff.

[Assistant] And was that a situation where you had the chance to use more Swahili?

[User] Oh, yeah, I used more Swahili. I had a young Kenyan who they knew and had chosen to train in how to do parasitology and urinalysis. So it was really, really fun.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we'd be out there most of the day, start back around 3:00 in the afternoon. So that was fun.

[Assistant] During the first six months, what kind of contact did you have with Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I used more Swahili. I had a young Kenyan who they knew and had chosen to train in how to do parasitology and urinalysis. So it was really, really fun.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we'd be out there most of the day, start back around 3:00 in the afternoon. So that was fun.

[Assistant] During the first six months, what kind of contact did you have with Peace Corps?

[User] Very little. You know, we were, being way up country we were kind of the poor relations, which was fine with us. The only time it wasn't fine with us was when we would hear about shipments of books and they'd say. We'd get a letter, come into the office and pick up all the books you need. And by the time we'd get there two months later, of course, the Central Province people would have scarfed them all up.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you, did you have any regular communication with the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little. You know, we were, being way up country we were kind of the poor relations, which was fine with us. The only time it wasn't fine with us was when we would hear about shipments of books and they'd say. We'd get a letter, come into the office and pick up all the books you need. And by the time we'd get there two months later, of course, the Central Province people would have scarfed them all up.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you, did you have any regular communication with the Peace Corps?

[User] Um, not that I remember. They might have sent out regular newsletter or something, but I don't remember it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We had.

[Assistant] There was a town six miles away where you got your mail.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not that I remember. They might have sent out regular newsletter or something, but I don't remember it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We had.

[Assistant] There was a town six miles away where you got your mail.

[User] Yeah, four miles.

[Assistant] Four miles. And was there a telephone at the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had.

[Assistant] There was a town six miles away where you got your mail.

[User] Yeah, four miles.

[Assistant] Four miles. And was there a telephone at the school?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay, so the only.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, four miles.

[Assistant] Four miles. And was there a telephone at the school?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay, so the only.

[User] I don't even think there was a telephone in, in Kehancha. I think the closest one would have been Migori.

[Assistant] And things were relatively, politically, were relatively quiet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay, so the only.

[User] I don't even think there was a telephone in, in Kehancha. I think the closest one would have been Migori.

[Assistant] And things were relatively, politically, were relatively quiet?

[User] They were, it was five years following independence. They were quiet until Tom Mboya was assassinated. Vice president.

[Assistant] And that was in the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were, it was five years following independence. They were quiet until Tom Mboya was assassinated. Vice president.

[Assistant] And that was in the second year?

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. It was quite a while before we left.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps at all concerned with your being so close to the Tanzania border?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. It was quite a while before we left.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps at all concerned with your being so close to the Tanzania border?

[User] I don't remember any communication from Peace Corps during that whole episode. And, you know, even if there had been, unless they had gotten in a Land Rover and driven out to check on us, it would have been two weeks before we got a letter anyway.

[Assistant] Did anyone visit from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was quite a while before we left.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps at all concerned with your being so close to the Tanzania border?

[User] I don't remember any communication from Peace Corps during that whole episode. And, you know, even if there had been, unless they had gotten in a Land Rover and driven out to check on us, it would have been two weeks before we got a letter anyway.

[Assistant] Did anyone visit from?

[User] Yeah. This Bob Siegel, who was, um, I don't remember if he was deputy director at the time. I think he might have been. He's the one who came out to mediate this dispute. And I think, I think he visited us one other time too, just kind of on rounds. And then for a short while, excuse me, our second year, they put a staff member in Kisumu, which was about 140 miles from us. And, um, I don't think that idea lasted too long, but it seemed like a good idea to have staff up country some ways.

[Assistant] A little closer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember any communication from Peace Corps during that whole episode. And, you know, even if there had been, unless they had gotten in a Land Rover and driven out to check on us, it would have been two weeks before we got a letter anyway.

[Assistant] Did anyone visit from?

[User] Yeah. This Bob Siegel, who was, um, I don't remember if he was deputy director at the time. I think he might have been. He's the one who came out to mediate this dispute. And I think, I think he visited us one other time too, just kind of on rounds. And then for a short while, excuse me, our second year, they put a staff member in Kisumu, which was about 140 miles from us. And, um, I don't think that idea lasted too long, but it seemed like a good idea to have staff up country some ways.

[Assistant] A little closer.

[User] Yeah. And he visited us, I think.

[Assistant] You know who that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And he visited us, I think.

[Assistant] You know who that was?

[User] Yeah, that was Chuck Coskran.

[Assistant] Chuck?

[User] Chuck Coskran and Kathy.

[Assistant] During the first six months, did you take any vacation, any time off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was Chuck Coskran.

[Assistant] Chuck?

[User] Chuck Coskran and Kathy.

[Assistant] During the first six months, did you take any vacation, any time off?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you go into Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you go into Nairobi?

[User] Yeah, we did go into Nairobi because we taught for three months. And you know, thinking about the timing. We probably didn't spend that much time, it was, probably was less than a week in Nairobi. It had to be, because I know we started teaching in January, it just seemed like forever. But anyway, when we. It was January, February, March, so we had the month of April off.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And we did a safari. One couple that were good friends of ours asked us to safari with them, which was a wonderful thing because he was a man who came back and got a PhD in ornithology, and so he knew I wasn't a birder at the time. We didn't even own binoculars, but he knew a lot about the animals. And so we really, we had a great time and learned a lot about the animals.

[Assistant] You didn't have a vehicle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we did go into Nairobi because we taught for three months. And you know, thinking about the timing. We probably didn't spend that much time, it was, probably was less than a week in Nairobi. It had to be, because I know we started teaching in January, it just seemed like forever. But anyway, when we. It was January, February, March, so we had the month of April off.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And we did a safari. One couple that were good friends of ours asked us to safari with them, which was a wonderful thing because he was a man who came back and got a PhD in ornithology, and so he knew I wasn't a birder at the time. We didn't even own binoculars, but he knew a lot about the animals. And so we really, we had a great time and learned a lot about the animals.

[Assistant] You didn't have a vehicle?

[User] No, we rented a car, rented a tiny Land Rover.

[Assistant] Where, in Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Nairobi, yeah. So we hitched into Nairobi.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'd like to show you this dent in my wedding ring. See this dent right here?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Well, that comes from where a rock hit me when Jim was getting bored when we were hitchhiking. We'd been sitting there for 3 hours, and he started throwing these little rocks at me. And one hit my ring. I still have the evidence. But, you know.

[Assistant] So it was possible to hitch, I mean, maybe it took a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that comes from where a rock hit me when Jim was getting bored when we were hitchhiking. We'd been sitting there for 3 hours, and he started throwing these little rocks at me. And one hit my ring. I still have the evidence. But, you know.

[Assistant] So it was possible to hitch, I mean, maybe it took a long time.

[User] We would take the bus to Kisii.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah, usually to Kisii, and then we'd start to hitch.

[Assistant] No public transport from Kisii in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, usually to Kisii, and then we'd start to hitch.

[Assistant] No public transport from Kisii in?

[User] I'm sure there was, but it must have been, like waiting until night or, yeah, I don't remember why it was. But if you got picked up by an Indian in a Mercedes, it was really fast.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Really scary. But you'd get there faster.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you rented a vehicle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure there was, but it must have been, like waiting until night or, yeah, I don't remember why it was. But if you got picked up by an Indian in a Mercedes, it was really fast.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Really scary. But you'd get there faster.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you rented a vehicle?

[User] Yes. And then went off and did the safari loop.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you went first?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really scary. But you'd get there faster.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you rented a vehicle?

[User] Yes. And then went off and did the safari loop.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you went first?

[User] Yeah, we went to the Mara Masai and Serengeti and Ngorongoro Crater and Olduvai Gorge.

[Assistant] Were you trying to camp your way around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we went to the Mara Masai and Serengeti and Ngorongoro Crater and Olduvai Gorge.

[Assistant] Were you trying to camp your way around?

[User] Oh, we were, yeah, we camped all the time.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah, we camped everywhere. And then we.

[Assistant] I had forgotten whether that was possible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we were, yeah, we camped all the time.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah, we camped everywhere. And then we.

[Assistant] I had forgotten whether that was possible.

[User] Yeah, we'd use the lodges for showers and drinks.

[Assistant] Then back to school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we camped everywhere. And then we.

[Assistant] I had forgotten whether that was possible.

[User] Yeah, we'd use the lodges for showers and drinks.

[Assistant] Then back to school?

[User] Then back to school. And in the meantime, we had acquired a couple of dogs and a cat, and we had our little family back there at school. So we always had a student housesit for us to take care of the animals.

[Assistant] And the big change was then you moved into your own house on the compound.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we'd use the lodges for showers and drinks.

[Assistant] Then back to school?

[User] Then back to school. And in the meantime, we had acquired a couple of dogs and a cat, and we had our little family back there at school. So we always had a student housesit for us to take care of the animals.

[Assistant] And the big change was then you moved into your own house on the compound.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] How did that change your relation to the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh God, it was like a breath of fresh air.

[Assistant] Because?

[User] Because we were away from the mission.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It definitely made that, made our, our difference from being missionaries more clear to everybody else. And we didn't have to go there. We would only walk over there if Roy had picked up the mail or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was the headmaster's relation with the mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we were away from the mission.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It definitely made that, made our, our difference from being missionaries more clear to everybody else. And we didn't have to go there. We would only walk over there if Roy had picked up the mail or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was the headmaster's relation with the mission?

[User] Uh, tolerant, but usually very annoyed. He didn't, he didn't subscribe to their brand of religion and if I remember correctly, he didn't practice any Christian religion that I remember. But he couldn't.

[Assistant] Was there any resentment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It definitely made that, made our, our difference from being missionaries more clear to everybody else. And we didn't have to go there. We would only walk over there if Roy had picked up the mail or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was the headmaster's relation with the mission?

[User] Uh, tolerant, but usually very annoyed. He didn't, he didn't subscribe to their brand of religion and if I remember correctly, he didn't practice any Christian religion that I remember. But he couldn't.

[Assistant] Was there any resentment?

[User] There was resentment. He didn't like them in some of their heavy handed things when the Foys came. Well, actually, that's not true. The Foys stayed such a short time. It was, I don't know, four months, six months. But then another couple came, a family, Harold and Ernestine Malone. And we went from nice guy Roy to pain in the neck Foys to unbelievable Malones. They were horrible. We by this time had gotten a grant and we were buying books. We got two grants, one to buy books and one to buy lab equipment.

[Assistant] Who were the grants from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was resentment. He didn't like them in some of their heavy handed things when the Foys came. Well, actually, that's not true. The Foys stayed such a short time. It was, I don't know, four months, six months. But then another couple came, a family, Harold and Ernestine Malone. And we went from nice guy Roy to pain in the neck Foys to unbelievable Malones. They were horrible. We by this time had gotten a grant and we were buying books. We got two grants, one to buy books and one to buy lab equipment.

[Assistant] Who were the grants from?

[User] You know, I don't remember. And we didn't have anything to do with getting them. So I think it's something, I don't.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] It probably was, it wasn't something we had to write for or anything.

[Assistant] So you simply got to notice that you got X amount of money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It probably was, it wasn't something we had to write for or anything.

[Assistant] So you simply got to notice that you got X amount of money?

[User] Yeah, we had this money. And so Jim and I, particularly Jim, did a lot of research on books that would be appropriate. We bought the African Writers Series and, and all kinds of things. Well, including some natural history books. And this became a huge battle with the missionaries that they were not going to allow any books that talked about evolution in the library. This isn't your library. This is a government school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it just became this. And the headmaster was totally on our side and we did indeed keep these books in the library. But there were just all kinds of bizarre episodes like that.

[Assistant] In relation to the library, did you train librarians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had this money. And so Jim and I, particularly Jim, did a lot of research on books that would be appropriate. We bought the African Writers Series and, and all kinds of things. Well, including some natural history books. And this became a huge battle with the missionaries that they were not going to allow any books that talked about evolution in the library. This isn't your library. This is a government school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it just became this. And the headmaster was totally on our side and we did indeed keep these books in the library. But there were just all kinds of bizarre episodes like that.

[Assistant] In relation to the library, did you train librarians?

[User] Yeah, we had a student.

[Assistant] Set up a stamp and due date and card system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had a student.

[Assistant] Set up a stamp and due date and card system?

[User] Right, we did, although it was not fail safe. And we realized one day that the entire African Writer Series was being pilfered and it became this big. Oh gosh, Jim should tell you about it. But anyway, it became this huge thing at the school and the headmaster went on a rampage and wanted to expel these kids that had stolen books. It's like, you know, if they'd stolen something else, but they're stealing books, I mean.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You want them to read, right?

[Assistant] Did you decorate the library? You had a building for the library?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, we did, although it was not fail safe. And we realized one day that the entire African Writer Series was being pilfered and it became this big. Oh gosh, Jim should tell you about it. But anyway, it became this huge thing at the school and the headmaster went on a rampage and wanted to expel these kids that had stolen books. It's like, you know, if they'd stolen something else, but they're stealing books, I mean.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You want them to read, right?

[Assistant] Did you decorate the library? You had a building for the library?

[User] Yes, it was a wonderful library. And with this grant, we were able to actually buy furniture. So we had, they were probably locally made, but nice tables and chairs.

[Assistant] Did you have [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You want them to read, right?

[Assistant] Did you decorate the library? You had a building for the library?

[User] Yes, it was a wonderful library. And with this grant, we were able to actually buy furniture. So we had, they were probably locally made, but nice tables and chairs.

[Assistant] Did you have [inaudible]?

[User] And it was very professional and, I think so. You'll have to ask Jim about that. Yeah, he spent most of his time.

[Assistant] The other part of the grant was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a wonderful library. And with this grant, we were able to actually buy furniture. So we had, they were probably locally made, but nice tables and chairs.

[Assistant] Did you have [inaudible]?

[User] And it was very professional and, I think so. You'll have to ask Jim about that. Yeah, he spent most of his time.

[Assistant] The other part of the grant was?

[User] For lab equipment.

[Assistant] And did you share the grant with? There was another science teacher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was very professional and, I think so. You'll have to ask Jim about that. Yeah, he spent most of his time.

[Assistant] The other part of the grant was?

[User] For lab equipment.

[Assistant] And did you share the grant with? There was another science teacher.

[User] Oh, yeah. I mean, he, you know, that was definitely his thing. And I worked with him on that, but it was for the school and it was, you know, and we bought beakers and pipettes and all these kinds of fun things.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you were able to start lab work by the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. I mean, he, you know, that was definitely his thing. And I worked with him on that, but it was for the school and it was, you know, and we bought beakers and pipettes and all these kinds of fun things.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you were able to start lab work by the second year?

[User] Yes. And but it was mostly just demonstration because there was not enough for kids to do things. And sometimes we would let them do things but. And we had a little four cubic foot kerosene refrigerator that made four ice cubes. So I rushed over to the lab with these four ice cubes to demonstrate the states of matter for the kids.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was great.

[Assistant] During the, well, you're still in the first year. You've taken the vacation. You're back. You're now moved into the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And but it was mostly just demonstration because there was not enough for kids to do things. And sometimes we would let them do things but. And we had a little four cubic foot kerosene refrigerator that made four ice cubes. So I rushed over to the lab with these four ice cubes to demonstrate the states of matter for the kids.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was great.

[Assistant] During the, well, you're still in the first year. You've taken the vacation. You're back. You're now moved into the house.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you, were you able to hire anyone to be a steward or help out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was great.

[Assistant] During the, well, you're still in the first year. You've taken the vacation. You're back. You're now moved into the house.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you, were you able to hire anyone to be a steward or help out?

[User]
Yeah. Well, you know, that was the ongoing Peace Corps dilemma. Should you hire help? Well, if you hire help, it supplies a job. But then it can be perceived as being privileged. And, you know, we went around and around. Well, finally, we, there was a young girl. She was about 15, who had worked at the mission, and she got pregnant and they fired her and expelled her from the mission. So we hired her and she, she did ironing for us and wash, and with the charcoal iron.

And then we hired her brother to sweep the house and just pick up. And, and he was very funny. His name was Peter, she was Hannah. And we would come back from school and Peter would be sleeping in our, in our spare room with our battery powered radio blasting away with a broom in his hand. And then, but then we kept Hannah, but until she married and moved away. And then we hired students. There were some students who were just so wonderful and had such a difficult time with school fees.

[Assistant] So it would help with their fees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you, were you able to hire anyone to be a steward or help out?

[User]
Yeah. Well, you know, that was the ongoing Peace Corps dilemma. Should you hire help? Well, if you hire help, it supplies a job. But then it can be perceived as being privileged. And, you know, we went around and around. Well, finally, we, there was a young girl. She was about 15, who had worked at the mission, and she got pregnant and they fired her and expelled her from the mission. So we hired her and she, she did ironing for us and wash, and with the charcoal iron.

And then we hired her brother to sweep the house and just pick up. And, and he was very funny. His name was Peter, she was Hannah. And we would come back from school and Peter would be sleeping in our, in our spare room with our battery powered radio blasting away with a broom in his hand. And then, but then we kept Hannah, but until she married and moved away. And then we hired students. There were some students who were just so wonderful and had such a difficult time with school fees.

[Assistant] So it would help with their fees.

[User] Oh yeah, we just paid their school fees.

[Assistant] And during all this time you were doing all the cooking and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, we just paid their school fees.

[Assistant] And during all this time you were doing all the cooking and?

[User] Oh, yeah, I did, I always did the cooking.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And John Ochieng, this one student who we really loved, he, he washed the dishes every day after school and swept the house. And then Efraim Jimbowie, who was another wonderful kid, he, he did our laundry and then he would housesit for us.

[Assistant] Did the, did you clear it with the headmaster before you hired students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And John Ochieng, this one student who we really loved, he, he washed the dishes every day after school and swept the house. And then Efraim Jimbowie, who was another wonderful kid, he, he did our laundry and then he would housesit for us.

[Assistant] Did the, did you clear it with the headmaster before you hired students?

[User] I don't remember. I don't, if we, if it was in any way going to be an issue, we would have but it was never an issue.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, uh, coming toward the end of the second semester, which would be the end, sort of the end of the first year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I don't, if we, if it was in any way going to be an issue, we would have but it was never an issue.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, uh, coming toward the end of the second semester, which would be the end, sort of the end of the first year.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, uh, coming toward the end of the second semester, which would be the end, sort of the end of the first year.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that?

[User] Okay. Then we had another month off and we'd gotten a letter from Peace Corps that there was going to be a medical safari to the Northern Frontier District of Turkana. And are you interested? Like, yes! So we applied and we were accepted for that and.

[Assistant] Were you busily training Jim to be a med tech?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that?

[User] Okay. Then we had another month off and we'd gotten a letter from Peace Corps that there was going to be a medical safari to the Northern Frontier District of Turkana. And are you interested? Like, yes! So we applied and we were accepted for that and.

[Assistant] Were you busily training Jim to be a med tech?

[User] Well, it was great because what we did is give smallpox and tuberculosis vaccines.

[Assistant] And who was the agency organizing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Then we had another month off and we'd gotten a letter from Peace Corps that there was going to be a medical safari to the Northern Frontier District of Turkana. And are you interested? Like, yes! So we applied and we were accepted for that and.

[Assistant] Were you busily training Jim to be a med tech?

[User] Well, it was great because what we did is give smallpox and tuberculosis vaccines.

[Assistant] And who was the agency organizing it?

[User] It was all Peace Corps, but I don't know if there was.

[Assistant] Was it a program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was all Peace Corps, but I don't know if there was.

[Assistant] Was it a program?

[User] It must been the Ministry of Health because we had Ministry of Health Land Rovers.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And but you know who probably was part of it? I don't remember that. But, um, and Ministry of Health people, Kenyans, who were up there too. And so there were 16 of us, I believe. It was four, four or five groups of four, so 16 or 20. And we were, we were paired up in these groups of four and given locations that we traveled around to for a month. And it was fabulous. And we just had, we must have good karma or something because we drew all these sites on the lake. And traveled with this couple camping and the driver.

[Assistant] But they were Kenyans who were part of your team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It must been the Ministry of Health because we had Ministry of Health Land Rovers.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And but you know who probably was part of it? I don't remember that. But, um, and Ministry of Health people, Kenyans, who were up there too. And so there were 16 of us, I believe. It was four, four or five groups of four, so 16 or 20. And we were, we were paired up in these groups of four and given locations that we traveled around to for a month. And it was fabulous. And we just had, we must have good karma or something because we drew all these sites on the lake. And traveled with this couple camping and the driver.

[Assistant] But they were Kenyans who were part of your team?

[User] There was a Kenyan driver who went along.

[Assistant] But no Kenyan Ministry of Health official?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And but you know who probably was part of it? I don't remember that. But, um, and Ministry of Health people, Kenyans, who were up there too. And so there were 16 of us, I believe. It was four, four or five groups of four, so 16 or 20. And we were, we were paired up in these groups of four and given locations that we traveled around to for a month. And it was fabulous. And we just had, we must have good karma or something because we drew all these sites on the lake. And traveled with this couple camping and the driver.

[Assistant] But they were Kenyans who were part of your team?

[User] There was a Kenyan driver who went along.

[Assistant] But no Kenyan Ministry of Health official?

[User] But no. No. We were the only ones giving the vaccine. You know.

[Assistant] Who, when you got to a village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a Kenyan driver who went along.

[Assistant] But no Kenyan Ministry of Health official?

[User] But no. No. We were the only ones giving the vaccine. You know.

[Assistant] Who, when you got to a village?

[User] I was just going to say, now that I think about it, I think what happened is that the Ministry of Health people were in. They would meet us at the villages I think, you know, because they did not travel with us. And I think they probably went out from Lodwar to the different sites intermittently rather than just, because we left Lodwar and then we didn't come back to Lodwar for a month. We went from, like we'd stay at a site for four days or three days or whatever.

[Assistant] Was it all camping out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But no. No. We were the only ones giving the vaccine. You know.

[Assistant] Who, when you got to a village?

[User] I was just going to say, now that I think about it, I think what happened is that the Ministry of Health people were in. They would meet us at the villages I think, you know, because they did not travel with us. And I think they probably went out from Lodwar to the different sites intermittently rather than just, because we left Lodwar and then we didn't come back to Lodwar for a month. We went from, like we'd stay at a site for four days or three days or whatever.

[Assistant] Was it all camping out?

[User] Yeah, we camped the whole time. We gave 5,000 inoculations of each one.

[Assistant] And were you able to function in Swahili up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was just going to say, now that I think about it, I think what happened is that the Ministry of Health people were in. They would meet us at the villages I think, you know, because they did not travel with us. And I think they probably went out from Lodwar to the different sites intermittently rather than just, because we left Lodwar and then we didn't come back to Lodwar for a month. We went from, like we'd stay at a site for four days or three days or whatever.

[Assistant] Was it all camping out?

[User] Yeah, we camped the whole time. We gave 5,000 inoculations of each one.

[Assistant] And were you able to function in Swahili up there?

[User] Um, there was, you know, somewhat, but it was mostly Turkana.

[Assistant] So you depended on the Ministry of Health officials.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we camped the whole time. We gave 5,000 inoculations of each one.

[Assistant] And were you able to function in Swahili up there?

[User] Um, there was, you know, somewhat, but it was mostly Turkana.

[Assistant] So you depended on the Ministry of Health officials.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For a lot of the communication.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, there was, you know, somewhat, but it was mostly Turkana.

[Assistant] So you depended on the Ministry of Health officials.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For a lot of the communication.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And Jim was part of the team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For a lot of the communication.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And Jim was part of the team?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Was he giving shots?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And Jim was part of the team?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Was he giving shots?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We are all were. It requires very little training.

[Assistant] So you did that for a month?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Was he giving shots?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We are all were. It requires very little training.

[Assistant] So you did that for a month?

[User] Yeah. And then back to school.

[Assistant] Well, at any point, up to that, up to this, was there any gathering of the group? I mean, did Peace Corps call you in for a conference of any sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We are all were. It requires very little training.

[Assistant] So you did that for a month?

[User] Yeah. And then back to school.

[Assistant] Well, at any point, up to that, up to this, was there any gathering of the group? I mean, did Peace Corps call you in for a conference of any sort?

[User] No, we had our close, we had our termination conference. That's only conference I remember.

[Assistant] At the end.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then back to school.

[Assistant] Well, at any point, up to that, up to this, was there any gathering of the group? I mean, did Peace Corps call you in for a conference of any sort?

[User] No, we had our close, we had our termination conference. That's only conference I remember.

[Assistant] At the end.

[User] But of course, we were into Nairobi, I mean, we probably. I don't think we went to Nairobi except when I got pregnant other than on a school break. It was just too far. I mean, it would take a whole week to go to Nairobi and come back.

[Assistant] But in some places, Peace Corps would call everyone and have a mid, mid-service conference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But of course, we were into Nairobi, I mean, we probably. I don't think we went to Nairobi except when I got pregnant other than on a school break. It was just too far. I mean, it would take a whole week to go to Nairobi and come back.

[Assistant] But in some places, Peace Corps would call everyone and have a mid, mid-service conference.

[User] I do not remember that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think I would.

[Assistant] So you didn't, uh, we'll get to the pregnancy in a moment, but you didn't really spend much time in Peace Corps office or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I would.

[Assistant] So you didn't, uh, we'll get to the pregnancy in a moment, but you didn't really spend much time in Peace Corps office or?

[User] Oh, no. Not much at all. Because we were so far away. But we had our cluster of Peace Corps friends up country, of course. And we did what all volunteers do where you stay up all night talking because it was so nice to know you weren't going to make a faux pas.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Playing Scrabble.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have any sense of what, how Peace Corps, the director and others were viewing you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. Not much at all. Because we were so far away. But we had our cluster of Peace Corps friends up country, of course. And we did what all volunteers do where you stay up all night talking because it was so nice to know you weren't going to make a faux pas.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Playing Scrabble.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have any sense of what, how Peace Corps, the director and others were viewing you?

[User] Well, you know, I honestly can't tell you much of what. Well, I can't really tell you much of what this was based on, other than some harassment. But we always felt like they thought the upcountry volunteers were kind of a pain in the ass. Because they would send out, you know, it's time for your gamma globulin shot, come into the office. Well, you know, we'd have to wait a month because we weren't, we couldn't just travel to Nairobi. They said, you're late, you know, you need to get here. Well, hello. Are we here to teach or to run around the country?

[Assistant] Because there were places where the doctor would go out or a nurse would go out and give the shots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Playing Scrabble.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have any sense of what, how Peace Corps, the director and others were viewing you?

[User] Well, you know, I honestly can't tell you much of what. Well, I can't really tell you much of what this was based on, other than some harassment. But we always felt like they thought the upcountry volunteers were kind of a pain in the ass. Because they would send out, you know, it's time for your gamma globulin shot, come into the office. Well, you know, we'd have to wait a month because we weren't, we couldn't just travel to Nairobi. They said, you're late, you know, you need to get here. Well, hello. Are we here to teach or to run around the country?

[Assistant] Because there were places where the doctor would go out or a nurse would go out and give the shots.

[User] Oh no, they never did that for us.

[Assistant] It wasn't so hard to arrange.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, I honestly can't tell you much of what. Well, I can't really tell you much of what this was based on, other than some harassment. But we always felt like they thought the upcountry volunteers were kind of a pain in the ass. Because they would send out, you know, it's time for your gamma globulin shot, come into the office. Well, you know, we'd have to wait a month because we weren't, we couldn't just travel to Nairobi. They said, you're late, you know, you need to get here. Well, hello. Are we here to teach or to run around the country?

[Assistant] Because there were places where the doctor would go out or a nurse would go out and give the shots.

[User] Oh no, they never did that for us.

[Assistant] It wasn't so hard to arrange.

[User] No. And I would think, I would think they would have enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Well, it must have been the Kenya Peace Corps style.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, they never did that for us.

[Assistant] It wasn't so hard to arrange.

[User] No. And I would think, I would think they would have enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Well, it must have been the Kenya Peace Corps style.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit about the pregnancy, which is, at what point in the two year cycle did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. And I would think, I would think they would have enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Well, it must have been the Kenya Peace Corps style.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit about the pregnancy, which is, at what point in the two year cycle did you?

[User] I got pregnant in February of the second year.

[Assistant] Okay. So that was early on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit about the pregnancy, which is, at what point in the two year cycle did you?

[User] I got pregnant in February of the second year.

[Assistant] Okay. So that was early on?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You still had, uh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Almost a full year.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. Which we carefully timed because we, we knew we had to have that baby before we went home or we'd end up paying for the care ourselves and we knew we didn't have any money so. I mean, my readjustment allowance had been going to pay off my student loans.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So, so we were not going to have any money when we got back.

[Assistant] So when you knew you were pregnant, did you simply write a letter to Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, but interestingly, before I went in for that pregnancy test, an old Kenyan woman who we knew, you know, she was one of the market mamas, she stopped me and she said in Swahili, when your baby comes, I'll send my daughter to take care of it. I say, oh my God. Honestly, you know, it was pretty amazing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we went to Nairobi, had the preg-, went to the Peace Corps office and had the pregnancy test. And then was, it was suggested to us by the Peace Corps doctor that now we would want to go home.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He said, you know, well, now I suppose you want to go home. No.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like he was terribly supportive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we went to Nairobi, had the preg-, went to the Peace Corps office and had the pregnancy test. And then was, it was suggested to us by the Peace Corps doctor that now we would want to go home.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He said, you know, well, now I suppose you want to go home. No.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like he was terribly supportive.

[User] No, they weren't supportive at all. They were really annoyed.

[Assistant] Just at that point, had any of the other couples become pregnant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He said, you know, well, now I suppose you want to go home. No.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like he was terribly supportive.

[User] No, they weren't supportive at all. They were really annoyed.

[Assistant] Just at that point, had any of the other couples become pregnant?

[User] Yeah. One in Nairobi.

[Assistant] Oh, in Nairobi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they weren't supportive at all. They were really annoyed.

[Assistant] Just at that point, had any of the other couples become pregnant?

[User] Yeah. One in Nairobi.

[Assistant] Oh, in Nairobi.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what, what did they choose to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. One in Nairobi.

[Assistant] Oh, in Nairobi.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what, what did they choose to do?

[User] They stayed.

[Assistant] Okay. All right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what, what did they choose to do?

[User] They stayed.

[Assistant] Okay. All right.

[User] I think their baby was born about six months before they left.

[Assistant] So you were the second of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They stayed.

[Assistant] Okay. All right.

[User] I think their baby was born about six months before they left.

[Assistant] So you were the second of that?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Had, had any previous volunteers, couples had children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think their baby was born about six months before they left.

[Assistant] So you were the second of that?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Had, had any previous volunteers, couples had children?

[User] Um, not that we were aware of. I mean, we might have been aware of them. Not that I remember. We didn't know any.

[Assistant] There may have been a change in the policy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Had, had any previous volunteers, couples had children?

[User] Um, not that we were aware of. I mean, we might have been aware of them. Not that I remember. We didn't know any.

[Assistant] There may have been a change in the policy.

[User] Yeah, maybe so.

[Assistant] Just about the time you were you were becoming volunteers. So the doctor was not terribly encouraging?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not that we were aware of. I mean, we might have been aware of them. Not that I remember. We didn't know any.

[Assistant] There may have been a change in the policy.

[User] Yeah, maybe so.

[Assistant] Just about the time you were you were becoming volunteers. So the doctor was not terribly encouraging?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Hmm. Did he explain why he felt you should be going home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, maybe so.

[Assistant] Just about the time you were you were becoming volunteers. So the doctor was not terribly encouraging?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Hmm. Did he explain why he felt you should be going home?

[User] Well, no, I. I actually, I don't think it was so much that he thought we should be going home as, well, he was concerned about our site being so remote.

[Assistant] Which he had never seen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Hmm. Did he explain why he felt you should be going home?

[User] Well, no, I. I actually, I don't think it was so much that he thought we should be going home as, well, he was concerned about our site being so remote.

[Assistant] Which he had never seen.

[User] Which he had never seen, no. This was a different doctor too. But, um, I think he assumed that we wouldn't want to stay up there. And so we said, no, you know, we've been telling you guys that this was in our plan and asking for clear directions. So, um, no, we want to stay. I feel great. I know I'm going to continue to feel great and don't anticipate any problems. Then they said, okay, if you can find a hospital. They said, well, you'll have to come to Nairobi for the birth. And I actually, I'm not even sure this all took place in the same discussion. There may have been some letter writing.

[Assistant] Was there any suggestion that you transfer to another school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, I. I actually, I don't think it was so much that he thought we should be going home as, well, he was concerned about our site being so remote.

[Assistant] Which he had never seen.

[User] Which he had never seen, no. This was a different doctor too. But, um, I think he assumed that we wouldn't want to stay up there. And so we said, no, you know, we've been telling you guys that this was in our plan and asking for clear directions. So, um, no, we want to stay. I feel great. I know I'm going to continue to feel great and don't anticipate any problems. Then they said, okay, if you can find a hospital. They said, well, you'll have to come to Nairobi for the birth. And I actually, I'm not even sure this all took place in the same discussion. There may have been some letter writing.

[Assistant] Was there any suggestion that you transfer to another school?

[User]
No. [tape break]

Teachers. And they said finally, if you can find a hospital with a blood bank and an incubator, you can stay in the country. We did. It was 100 miles from our home, which was tricky.

[Assistant] The Maryknoll clinic didn't have any anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which he had never seen, no. This was a different doctor too. But, um, I think he assumed that we wouldn't want to stay up there. And so we said, no, you know, we've been telling you guys that this was in our plan and asking for clear directions. So, um, no, we want to stay. I feel great. I know I'm going to continue to feel great and don't anticipate any problems. Then they said, okay, if you can find a hospital. They said, well, you'll have to come to Nairobi for the birth. And I actually, I'm not even sure this all took place in the same discussion. There may have been some letter writing.

[Assistant] Was there any suggestion that you transfer to another school?

[User]
No. [tape break]

Teachers. And they said finally, if you can find a hospital with a blood bank and an incubator, you can stay in the country. We did. It was 100 miles from our home, which was tricky.

[Assistant] The Maryknoll clinic didn't have any anything like that?

[User] No. This was a Seventh Day Adventist hospital right on Lake Victoria, at Kendu Bay.

[Assistant] Okay, but it's 100 miles away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. [tape break]

Teachers. And they said finally, if you can find a hospital with a blood bank and an incubator, you can stay in the country. We did. It was 100 miles from our home, which was tricky.

[Assistant] The Maryknoll clinic didn't have any anything like that?

[User] No. This was a Seventh Day Adventist hospital right on Lake Victoria, at Kendu Bay.

[Assistant] Okay, but it's 100 miles away?

[User] Yeah, it was 100 miles away.

[Assistant] And so then the plan was when the baby was due to arrive, you would go there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went for, um, in our search for the place, we had heard about Kendu Bay, so we went there and checked it out. It was wonderful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had a, met the doctor, had a checkup. And then I went back. We went back together one more time for a checkup. And then at about. No, actually, I had this early checkup. And then being an American, I felt I should probably go back. I'd gotten prenatal vitamins from Peace Corps, and of course, they were going to support this financially.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then I had an appointment, and for some reason, Jim couldn't go and I couldn't get a ride. So I hitchhiked by myself. I figured a pregnant woman was pretty safe and I was. And got a ride back with the missionary who was going to go there the next, Adam.

[Assistant] To the hospital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had a, met the doctor, had a checkup. And then I went back. We went back together one more time for a checkup. And then at about. No, actually, I had this early checkup. And then being an American, I felt I should probably go back. I'd gotten prenatal vitamins from Peace Corps, and of course, they were going to support this financially.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then I had an appointment, and for some reason, Jim couldn't go and I couldn't get a ride. So I hitchhiked by myself. I figured a pregnant woman was pretty safe and I was. And got a ride back with the missionary who was going to go there the next, Adam.

[Assistant] To the hospital?

[User] To Kendu Bay. And then the third checkup I had was two weeks before the due date, and, um, we went, Jim and I went up together. We went in a mini Moke. Do you remember the mini Mokes? They were like a little, they were like a little four wheel drive chassis with barely any kind of body. They were open. And our friend, the ag volunteer, had one and he loaned it to us and we took it as far as Kisii, where he needed it. And then we took the bus the extra 30, or a Peugeot taxi, the extra 30 miles. And she said, no, the baby will be two weeks. It hasn't dropped yet. Well, then we took the bus all the way home, 100 miles. I was totally exhausted, went to bed, and went into labor that night.

[Assistant] At the school, you were at the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I had an appointment, and for some reason, Jim couldn't go and I couldn't get a ride. So I hitchhiked by myself. I figured a pregnant woman was pretty safe and I was. And got a ride back with the missionary who was going to go there the next, Adam.

[Assistant] To the hospital?

[User] To Kendu Bay. And then the third checkup I had was two weeks before the due date, and, um, we went, Jim and I went up together. We went in a mini Moke. Do you remember the mini Mokes? They were like a little, they were like a little four wheel drive chassis with barely any kind of body. They were open. And our friend, the ag volunteer, had one and he loaned it to us and we took it as far as Kisii, where he needed it. And then we took the bus the extra 30, or a Peugeot taxi, the extra 30 miles. And she said, no, the baby will be two weeks. It hasn't dropped yet. Well, then we took the bus all the way home, 100 miles. I was totally exhausted, went to bed, and went into labor that night.

[Assistant] At the school, you were at the school?

[User] Yeah, at Taranganya. We had just been at Kendu Bay that day. And so our plan. At the beginning of our second year, um, a couple came to a school, Naroha, which was about seven miles further up the road from us, and they became very dear friends. And it was the most amazing coincidence. He had graduated from the med tech program at Michigan State and recognized me on the streets of Nairobi. And then they got assigned at the school.

[Assistant] So they were both teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when I went into labor, you know, it took a while to figure it out because we had just been told would be two weeks. Anyway, finally we decided it was the real thing. So Jim walked over to the mission to ask the missionary to drive up to get our friends Rick and Maggie. And the missionaries, the woman, Ernestine, had done nothing for the entire time they were there and I was pregnant but harangue me about how stupid I was, that she would get on a first plane back to New York. And how can I think of having a baby here? I said, you know, people do it every day.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Anyway. So we really avoided them and didn't want them to have anything to do with this. But Harold insisted, no, no, there's no time. I'll drive Mary. And poor Jim. He comes back and he says, Harold's really being insistent. I said, well, you need to go back and tell Harold that if he's going, I'm not going. He needs to get Rick. What can I tell him? I said, tell him Rick has medical training and I want him there for that purpose.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So the guy bought that and he went up and got Rick. Rick and Maggie came down and then we drove the 100 miles to Kendu Bay. Got there, got there with two and a half hours to spare.

[Assistant] So you finally got the missionaries' car and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway. So we really avoided them and didn't want them to have anything to do with this. But Harold insisted, no, no, there's no time. I'll drive Mary. And poor Jim. He comes back and he says, Harold's really being insistent. I said, well, you need to go back and tell Harold that if he's going, I'm not going. He needs to get Rick. What can I tell him? I said, tell him Rick has medical training and I want him there for that purpose.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So the guy bought that and he went up and got Rick. Rick and Maggie came down and then we drove the 100 miles to Kendu Bay. Got there, got there with two and a half hours to spare.

[Assistant] So you finally got the missionaries' car and?

[User] Well, no, Rick and Maggie were, were naughty. They had, they had a van. They had bought a van that they sort of kept hidden.

[Assistant] Against, totally against Peace Corps regulations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the guy bought that and he went up and got Rick. Rick and Maggie came down and then we drove the 100 miles to Kendu Bay. Got there, got there with two and a half hours to spare.

[Assistant] So you finally got the missionaries' car and?

[User] Well, no, Rick and Maggie were, were naughty. They had, they had a van. They had bought a van that they sort of kept hidden.

[Assistant] Against, totally against Peace Corps regulations.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I got it. So you went in their van.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, Rick and Maggie were, were naughty. They had, they had a van. They had bought a van that they sort of kept hidden.

[Assistant] Against, totally against Peace Corps regulations.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I got it. So you went in their van.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And so had the baby?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I got it. So you went in their van.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And so had the baby?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And the baby was a girl?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Named?

[User] Mara.

[Assistant] Mara.

[User] Christine.

[Assistant] Mara Christine. How long were you at Kendu Bay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mara.

[Assistant] Mara.

[User] Christine.

[Assistant] Mara Christine. How long were you at Kendu Bay?

[User] Five days. It was very luxurious. They wanted me to stay, make sure nursing was going okay. And since the whole thing cost $85, I didn't think it was excessive.

[Assistant] Yeah. What month was this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Christine.

[Assistant] Mara Christine. How long were you at Kendu Bay?

[User] Five days. It was very luxurious. They wanted me to stay, make sure nursing was going okay. And since the whole thing cost $85, I didn't think it was excessive.

[Assistant] Yeah. What month was this?

[User] October.

[Assistant] October. All right. So it's getting close to the end of your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five days. It was very luxurious. They wanted me to stay, make sure nursing was going okay. And since the whole thing cost $85, I didn't think it was excessive.

[Assistant] Yeah. What month was this?

[User] October.

[Assistant] October. All right. So it's getting close to the end of your service?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you, through the pregnancy, had you missed much time teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] October.

[Assistant] October. All right. So it's getting close to the end of your service?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you, through the pregnancy, had you missed much time teaching?

[User] Not at all. I felt great and actually went on a long safari. It was our only flying safari because it was, let's see. It would have been August. That would have been the school break. And Peace Corps had our termination conference at Mombasa. And so we drove to Nairobi. But then we flew to Mombasa and then flew to Zanzibar and Dar es Salaam. It was kind of luxurious. And that's our last fling, because we really didn't think the roads would be such a great idea at that point.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you actually, you had the determination conference when you still had two or three months left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you, through the pregnancy, had you missed much time teaching?

[User] Not at all. I felt great and actually went on a long safari. It was our only flying safari because it was, let's see. It would have been August. That would have been the school break. And Peace Corps had our termination conference at Mombasa. And so we drove to Nairobi. But then we flew to Mombasa and then flew to Zanzibar and Dar es Salaam. It was kind of luxurious. And that's our last fling, because we really didn't think the roads would be such a great idea at that point.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you actually, you had the determination conference when you still had two or three months left?

[User] Yeah, we still had one more term of school, and I think they did it because of the school break.

[Assistant] Was the, well, let's jump to the, well, let's go back to Kendu Bay. Five days and you were ready to go back to school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. I felt great and actually went on a long safari. It was our only flying safari because it was, let's see. It would have been August. That would have been the school break. And Peace Corps had our termination conference at Mombasa. And so we drove to Nairobi. But then we flew to Mombasa and then flew to Zanzibar and Dar es Salaam. It was kind of luxurious. And that's our last fling, because we really didn't think the roads would be such a great idea at that point.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you actually, you had the determination conference when you still had two or three months left?

[User] Yeah, we still had one more term of school, and I think they did it because of the school break.

[Assistant] Was the, well, let's jump to the, well, let's go back to Kendu Bay. Five days and you were ready to go back to school?

[User] Yeah, I didn't go right back to teaching. I think I took about two weeks, stayed home, and then, of course, it was right on the compound.

[Assistant] How did the school community take to you as a new mother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I really never had experiences alone with women. And now that's something, if we went today, we'd still be married, but I would seek that out. I just, I was just too young to know how much I was missing by not having that. But having the baby was a touch of that, which was really wonderful.

[Assistant] How did the missionaries take to your being a nursing mother?

[User] They pretty much ignored us and they were really quite hateful. The, the woman was just basically pissed that I'd had this baby without any trouble.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That we'd all survived. And we had a really awful incident with them when our baby was about a month old because we ran out of water. We were having a drought and our tank was empty and we could use the river water, which was pretty gross. But I really didn't want to use, bathe our baby in it. She wasn't drinking any, but I didn't. So anyway, Jim went and asked them for a bucket of water and they wouldn't give it to us. So anyway, it just, we had very little to do with them after she was born.

[Assistant] Do you recall did, right after the birth, did you telegram Peace Corps to let them know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They pretty much ignored us and they were really quite hateful. The, the woman was just basically pissed that I'd had this baby without any trouble.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That we'd all survived. And we had a really awful incident with them when our baby was about a month old because we ran out of water. We were having a drought and our tank was empty and we could use the river water, which was pretty gross. But I really didn't want to use, bathe our baby in it. She wasn't drinking any, but I didn't. So anyway, Jim went and asked them for a bucket of water and they wouldn't give it to us. So anyway, it just, we had very little to do with them after she was born.

[Assistant] Do you recall did, right after the birth, did you telegram Peace Corps to let them know?

[User] Yeah. We, we, um. There was a phone in Kendu Bay and maybe, maybe Jim called them. Somehow we let them know right away.

[Assistant] I'm curious about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That we'd all survived. And we had a really awful incident with them when our baby was about a month old because we ran out of water. We were having a drought and our tank was empty and we could use the river water, which was pretty gross. But I really didn't want to use, bathe our baby in it. She wasn't drinking any, but I didn't. So anyway, Jim went and asked them for a bucket of water and they wouldn't give it to us. So anyway, it just, we had very little to do with them after she was born.

[Assistant] Do you recall did, right after the birth, did you telegram Peace Corps to let them know?

[User] Yeah. We, we, um. There was a phone in Kendu Bay and maybe, maybe Jim called them. Somehow we let them know right away.

[Assistant] I'm curious about.

[User] Oh, wait a minute. No, we didn't. He, he sent telegrams to our families.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We, we, um. There was a phone in Kendu Bay and maybe, maybe Jim called them. Somehow we let them know right away.

[Assistant] I'm curious about.

[User] Oh, wait a minute. No, we didn't. He, he sent telegrams to our families.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that.

[User] Yeah, and but we didn't. He didn't contact Peace Corps because we got a telegram from them that said, please advise of your medical status.

[Assistant] Well, they were being diplomatic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, wait a minute. No, we didn't. He, he sent telegrams to our families.

[Assistant] I was going to ask that.

[User] Yeah, and but we didn't. He didn't contact Peace Corps because we got a telegram from them that said, please advise of your medical status.

[Assistant] Well, they were being diplomatic.

[User] Yeah, exactly. So we wrote back and said we were all fine.

[Assistant] When you reported to the families that you were pregnant, you did? You did tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and but we didn't. He didn't contact Peace Corps because we got a telegram from them that said, please advise of your medical status.

[Assistant] Well, they were being diplomatic.

[User] Yeah, exactly. So we wrote back and said we were all fine.

[Assistant] When you reported to the families that you were pregnant, you did? You did tell them?

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did they try to convince you that maybe be good not to work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did they try to convince you that maybe be good not to work?

[User] You know, they didn't. But I have all of the letters that I wrote home. And since my daughter, my other daughter, just had a baby, I've been wanting to go back and read about that, because my mom and dad were very, very dear. They sent us, they sent us cloth diapers, they sent us Pampers, diaper pins. Pampers were just out and so they sent us enough for the trip home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were very, very supportive. Um. I honestly don't remember anyone trying to get us to come home. I just think they knew it was hopeless.

[Assistant] How did Peace Corps deal with you once you had the baby? I mean, did you, did they came out to check on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a, we wanted to take the long route so we could take our daughter to the river she was named for and take pictures and all that. So it took us forever to get into Nairobi. And we arrived around 9:00 at night and had all of our stuff in a Peace Corps Land Rover. Jim had gone to Nairobi, borrowed the Land Rover, which they loaned to us because we had the baby.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they were supportive in that way. And took her and rushed into a restaurant and came back out and our Land Rover had been broken into and our passports, all our money, and our cameras were all gone.

[Assistant] Oh no.

[User] So instead of spending our last two weeks in Kenya having fun and going to Amboseli as we'd planned, we spent it dealing with the embassy. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you going to be replaced at the school by other volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they were supportive in that way. And took her and rushed into a restaurant and came back out and our Land Rover had been broken into and our passports, all our money, and our cameras were all gone.

[Assistant] Oh no.

[User] So instead of spending our last two weeks in Kenya having fun and going to Amboseli as we'd planned, we spent it dealing with the embassy. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you going to be replaced at the school by other volunteers?

[User] No, we were not. And, you know, it's funny, I've thought about that because I don't know why we didn't lobby for that. I think we were just so caught up in having this baby. And it was just, yeah, we felt very distant from Peace Corps staff. And although we had some nice contact with people, like when we had all our money stolen, we stayed with the deputy director, this Chuck Coskran, he put us up because we couldn't even afford a hotel at that point.

[Assistant] So as you came to the end of the two year tour, what was your feeling, that you'd kind of accomplished something that, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But and, and we did. I mean, I felt like I had accomplished something. I mean, our kids were learning, you know, the students were learning. And, and we couldn't see how they would do on the Cambridge exam, of course, because they had two more years, most of them. But we were just heartbroken to leave.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
I mean, we, if ,if I, if I did not, I would not have stayed in town another year. I really did not want to teach another year. I didn't particularly like it. I considered it kind of a necessary evil for living there and being there and having that experience. But, you know, I was committed to doing it and doing it as best I could. But anyway, we were just heartbroken. I mean, we had these dogs we loved dearly and this cat and we had dispense with them. And I'm going to have to turn that off because it'll keep beeping.

So we started writing letters and we really didn't feel we could leave our dogs locally because they would not have been treated like they were used to being treated. Although we did leave our cat with our teacher friend Jerry. And one dog we gave to Ephraim, the student who was now out of school and had taken such good care of our dogs. But anyway, um, just everything. We were just heartbroken. We cried all the way to Migori.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then kind of got over it and got into this trip to the Mara River and.

[Assistant] Yeah. And, um, let's, let's jump back in time, going to the termination conference. You were still pregnant at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I mean, we, if ,if I, if I did not, I would not have stayed in town another year. I really did not want to teach another year. I didn't particularly like it. I considered it kind of a necessary evil for living there and being there and having that experience. But, you know, I was committed to doing it and doing it as best I could. But anyway, we were just heartbroken. I mean, we had these dogs we loved dearly and this cat and we had dispense with them. And I'm going to have to turn that off because it'll keep beeping.

So we started writing letters and we really didn't feel we could leave our dogs locally because they would not have been treated like they were used to being treated. Although we did leave our cat with our teacher friend Jerry. And one dog we gave to Ephraim, the student who was now out of school and had taken such good care of our dogs. But anyway, um, just everything. We were just heartbroken. We cried all the way to Migori.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then kind of got over it and got into this trip to the Mara River and.

[Assistant] Yeah. And, um, let's, let's jump back in time, going to the termination conference. You were still pregnant at that point?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this was really the first time in almost the year and a half that that original group was back together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then kind of got over it and got into this trip to the Mara River and.

[Assistant] Yeah. And, um, let's, let's jump back in time, going to the termination conference. You were still pregnant at that point?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this was really the first time in almost the year and a half that that original group was back together?

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] And how did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, you know what I remember about that termination conference? I was seven months pregnant, and I had made myself, we have, we had a friend in Migori who had a travel sewing machine. I had made myself a swimsuit because I knew there was going to be a pool and we were going to go to Zanzibar. And, uh, what I remember so clearly is laying in that pool and just loving it. I don't remember any of the sessions.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was just so nice to be with friends and just kind of hang out.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Jim may remember more about it, but I don't.

[Assistant] Yeah, but really, your service had been virtually autonomous, I mean it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just so nice to be with friends and just kind of hang out.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Jim may remember more about it, but I don't.

[Assistant] Yeah, but really, your service had been virtually autonomous, I mean it?

[User] It had been.

[Assistant] Yeah. You weren't functioning as part of the bigger group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim may remember more about it, but I don't.

[Assistant] Yeah, but really, your service had been virtually autonomous, I mean it?

[User] It had been.

[Assistant] Yeah. You weren't functioning as part of the bigger group.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And within that group you had a couple of close friends.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had been.

[Assistant] Yeah. You weren't functioning as part of the bigger group.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And within that group you had a couple of close friends.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And at any point there was at least one other couple who had a child?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And within that group you had a couple of close friends.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And at any point there was at least one other couple who had a child?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point did, was there a session in which they asked you to feedback the experience of being a volunteer and a mother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point did, was there a session in which they asked you to feedback the experience of being a volunteer and a mother?

[User] Uh uh. Oh, actually she wasn't, she hadn't been born yet at the termination conference.

[Assistant] Well, even.

[User] Uh uh, no. And actually I think there were two babies. No. Well, anyway, it doesn't matter. But no. I think one of them came to the conference, is what I'm thinking. I'm sure we talked.

[Assistant] And that conference was great because you then went on to Zanzibar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh uh. Oh, actually she wasn't, she hadn't been born yet at the termination conference.

[Assistant] Well, even.

[User] Uh uh, no. And actually I think there were two babies. No. Well, anyway, it doesn't matter. But no. I think one of them came to the conference, is what I'm thinking. I'm sure we talked.

[Assistant] And that conference was great because you then went on to Zanzibar?

[User] Right, and Dar es Salaam.

[Assistant] Yeah. As you were finishing up and not planning on being robbed, but leaving the country, what were your plans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and Dar es Salaam.

[Assistant] Yeah. As you were finishing up and not planning on being robbed, but leaving the country, what were your plans?

[User] Boy, our plans were, we thought we would go back to Washington, D.C. because we had loved it so much.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
But we got back to Grand Rapids, Michigan, on December 23rd, and everybody was so happy to see us. But one of the funniest things, of course, we had this little baby that would just took everybody's attention and somebody else was holding the baby. And my mother sidled up to me and said in my ear, you're not wearing a girdle. And I said, you're right. And I haven't worn one for two years, and I don't intend to ever wear one again. But our plan was to go back to D.C. We were going to go to Grand Rapids, of course, and spend time with our families and then find, Jim was going to find a job because I didn't want to go to work at this point.

So what had happened is the green sheet, this Peace Corps employment bulletin, had been about 30 pages thick when we left. And after the Nixon administration came in, social service jobs just dried up and it was like five or six pages and there were very few jobs. And Jim, he'll tell you this himself, but he really got depressed. I was, I was a little better because I was focused on the baby and we bought a stroller and we would, it was a terrible winter in Michigan. And we would go on these long walks plowing that stroller through the snow.

[Assistant] Were you living with your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, our plans were, we thought we would go back to Washington, D.C. because we had loved it so much.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
But we got back to Grand Rapids, Michigan, on December 23rd, and everybody was so happy to see us. But one of the funniest things, of course, we had this little baby that would just took everybody's attention and somebody else was holding the baby. And my mother sidled up to me and said in my ear, you're not wearing a girdle. And I said, you're right. And I haven't worn one for two years, and I don't intend to ever wear one again. But our plan was to go back to D.C. We were going to go to Grand Rapids, of course, and spend time with our families and then find, Jim was going to find a job because I didn't want to go to work at this point.

So what had happened is the green sheet, this Peace Corps employment bulletin, had been about 30 pages thick when we left. And after the Nixon administration came in, social service jobs just dried up and it was like five or six pages and there were very few jobs. And Jim, he'll tell you this himself, but he really got depressed. I was, I was a little better because I was focused on the baby and we bought a stroller and we would, it was a terrible winter in Michigan. And we would go on these long walks plowing that stroller through the snow.

[Assistant] Were you living with your family?

[User] We stayed with my mom and dad, who were really great. They were very non-interfering and just, we were welcome there as long as we needed to be. And then in the Peace Corps employment bulletin was an announcement for a job in Los Alamos. And that was after we'd been home about two months. So we came out here for the interview and then he got that job and we moved after three months. But what happened to us there was we couldn't stand being in the city. We really couldn't stand it. And we were like.

[Assistant] Which city are you referring to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But we got back to Grand Rapids, Michigan, on December 23rd, and everybody was so happy to see us. But one of the funniest things, of course, we had this little baby that would just took everybody's attention and somebody else was holding the baby. And my mother sidled up to me and said in my ear, you're not wearing a girdle. And I said, you're right. And I haven't worn one for two years, and I don't intend to ever wear one again. But our plan was to go back to D.C. We were going to go to Grand Rapids, of course, and spend time with our families and then find, Jim was going to find a job because I didn't want to go to work at this point.

So what had happened is the green sheet, this Peace Corps employment bulletin, had been about 30 pages thick when we left. And after the Nixon administration came in, social service jobs just dried up and it was like five or six pages and there were very few jobs. And Jim, he'll tell you this himself, but he really got depressed. I was, I was a little better because I was focused on the baby and we bought a stroller and we would, it was a terrible winter in Michigan. And we would go on these long walks plowing that stroller through the snow.

[Assistant] Were you living with your family?

[User] We stayed with my mom and dad, who were really great. They were very non-interfering and just, we were welcome there as long as we needed to be. And then in the Peace Corps employment bulletin was an announcement for a job in Los Alamos. And that was after we'd been home about two months. So we came out here for the interview and then he got that job and we moved after three months. But what happened to us there was we couldn't stand being in the city. We really couldn't stand it. And we were like.

[Assistant] Which city are you referring to?

[User] Grand Rapids. And we realized that there was no way we wanted to go back to the East Coast.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We stayed with my mom and dad, who were really great. They were very non-interfering and just, we were welcome there as long as we needed to be. And then in the Peace Corps employment bulletin was an announcement for a job in Los Alamos. And that was after we'd been home about two months. So we came out here for the interview and then he got that job and we moved after three months. But what happened to us there was we couldn't stand being in the city. We really couldn't stand it. And we were like.

[Assistant] Which city are you referring to?

[User] Grand Rapids. And we realized that there was no way we wanted to go back to the East Coast.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Okay.

[User] And so we, we didn't know where we wanted to be. We wanted to be in Africa. This is all we wanted, all we could tell. And when this thing in New Mexico came up, you know, we knew the bomb had been built there and we knew. We looked on the map and saw it was 7,300 feet elevation so there had to be mountains. So, well, this can't, you know, this has to be pretty rural. Anyway, when we drove out here and saw how much New Mexico resembled Africa, we were content.

[Assistant] And it was Jim who got the job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grand Rapids. And we realized that there was no way we wanted to go back to the East Coast.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Okay.

[User] And so we, we didn't know where we wanted to be. We wanted to be in Africa. This is all we wanted, all we could tell. And when this thing in New Mexico came up, you know, we knew the bomb had been built there and we knew. We looked on the map and saw it was 7,300 feet elevation so there had to be mountains. So, well, this can't, you know, this has to be pretty rural. Anyway, when we drove out here and saw how much New Mexico resembled Africa, we were content.

[Assistant] And it was Jim who got the job?

[User] Yes, but, but of course, when we came for the interview, he didn't know if he would get the job and we had to drive all the way back. And so as we went through this area, we wrote down every town with a hospital because we decided. Well, actually I had just started to work in Grand Rapids in a hospital, and we decided we're moving out here and I'll get a job if I have to. We'll work this out. We were just.

[Assistant] The trip out sold you on New Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we, we didn't know where we wanted to be. We wanted to be in Africa. This is all we wanted, all we could tell. And when this thing in New Mexico came up, you know, we knew the bomb had been built there and we knew. We looked on the map and saw it was 7,300 feet elevation so there had to be mountains. So, well, this can't, you know, this has to be pretty rural. Anyway, when we drove out here and saw how much New Mexico resembled Africa, we were content.

[Assistant] And it was Jim who got the job?

[User] Yes, but, but of course, when we came for the interview, he didn't know if he would get the job and we had to drive all the way back. And so as we went through this area, we wrote down every town with a hospital because we decided. Well, actually I had just started to work in Grand Rapids in a hospital, and we decided we're moving out here and I'll get a job if I have to. We'll work this out. We were just.

[Assistant] The trip out sold you on New Mexico?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And we visited some Peace Corps friends in Kansas on the way back, and that was kind of uplifting.

[Assistant] During this time, did you? You mentioned you really wanted to be back in Africa. Do you recall, did you explore working for AID or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we didn't. I think it had mostly to do with having the baby.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think also both of us from our family backgrounds, Jim was the first person in his family to ever go to college too. And, you know, we, we were so underexposed to a lot of things. I think we did believe we could do a lot of things that now we know we could have done or we could do now.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I think it was just a matter of confidence and trust. It's like, well, if you don't, if you weren't trained for this, then how can you do it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Um. Anything else you want, I mean, it's kind of sort of the end of the sequence. You did get to go back. Well, let's take, uh. Overall, what was, what do you think the effect on your life was having been? I think it's been implied a lot in your story already.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think also both of us from our family backgrounds, Jim was the first person in his family to ever go to college too. And, you know, we, we were so underexposed to a lot of things. I think we did believe we could do a lot of things that now we know we could have done or we could do now.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I think it was just a matter of confidence and trust. It's like, well, if you don't, if you weren't trained for this, then how can you do it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Um. Anything else you want, I mean, it's kind of sort of the end of the sequence. You did get to go back. Well, let's take, uh. Overall, what was, what do you think the effect on your life was having been? I think it's been implied a lot in your story already.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Well, certainly, you know, I think what every Peace Corps volunteer learns is that there are a whole lot of people out there with a whole lot less than we ever imagined we could do without. And so, I mean, it's, I mean, when we left Michigan State, it's like, well, the thing to do was live in a Detroit suburb and, you know, get a job. And it's like, we never would have. I don't, I don't know, we might have found some other experience, but I think without that Peace Corps experience, we never would have recognized just how much is out there in the world and what will really make you happy.

[Assistant] You both brought a lot to it, obviously, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was just a matter of confidence and trust. It's like, well, if you don't, if you weren't trained for this, then how can you do it?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Um. Anything else you want, I mean, it's kind of sort of the end of the sequence. You did get to go back. Well, let's take, uh. Overall, what was, what do you think the effect on your life was having been? I think it's been implied a lot in your story already.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Well, certainly, you know, I think what every Peace Corps volunteer learns is that there are a whole lot of people out there with a whole lot less than we ever imagined we could do without. And so, I mean, it's, I mean, when we left Michigan State, it's like, well, the thing to do was live in a Detroit suburb and, you know, get a job. And it's like, we never would have. I don't, I don't know, we might have found some other experience, but I think without that Peace Corps experience, we never would have recognized just how much is out there in the world and what will really make you happy.

[Assistant] You both brought a lot to it, obviously, I mean.

[User] Well, yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] Whatever your person was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Well, certainly, you know, I think what every Peace Corps volunteer learns is that there are a whole lot of people out there with a whole lot less than we ever imagined we could do without. And so, I mean, it's, I mean, when we left Michigan State, it's like, well, the thing to do was live in a Detroit suburb and, you know, get a job. And it's like, we never would have. I don't, I don't know, we might have found some other experience, but I think without that Peace Corps experience, we never would have recognized just how much is out there in the world and what will really make you happy.

[Assistant] You both brought a lot to it, obviously, I mean.

[User] Well, yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] Whatever your person was.

[User] Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point over the next 25 years were, as your life changed and family changed, were you ever tempted to again become volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And at any point over the next 25 years were, as your life changed and family changed, were you ever tempted to again become volunteers?

[User] We talk about it now. I mean, we never were when, of course, when we had children and we were very focused for 20 years on their thing, that kid thing, which is rather all consuming.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, you know, we wouldn't live here if we hadn't done Peace Corps. I mean, there's no way. And, you know, I think we've sacrificed a lot in career opportunities to live here. But this has been where we've wanted to be and we've loved it. And it's, it's because of Peace Corps. I mean, we wouldn't have done this.

[Assistant] But it's interesting. You make genuine life choices and career choices.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We talk about it now. I mean, we never were when, of course, when we had children and we were very focused for 20 years on their thing, that kid thing, which is rather all consuming.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, you know, we wouldn't live here if we hadn't done Peace Corps. I mean, there's no way. And, you know, I think we've sacrificed a lot in career opportunities to live here. But this has been where we've wanted to be and we've loved it. And it's, it's because of Peace Corps. I mean, we wouldn't have done this.

[Assistant] But it's interesting. You make genuine life choices and career choices.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] I think many people don't. They sort of.