[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And thank them. That was good for me to do that for sure. I got to do that a lot. What that did for me was—and any time I do any public speaking I make a point to tell people. That reminded me of the true grit and backbone of this country, people just like them.\n\n Another short story I’ll tell you. Who’s the lady that’s running our small team out here that deals with people problems?

[Assistant] Jackie [Jacqueline E.] Reese?

[User] Jackie Reese. Why I should forget Jackie Reese, because I’ve known her for a long time.\n\n Before I left the control center on the day that we lost Columbia, Jackie Reese came up and got in my face. She wanted to go into the Space Station control room and tell the people in there, tell them that she is available, and give them an initial briefing on how they can deal with this. Do her normal thing. I said, “No. No, no. We’re not going to do it. Not going to do it.”\n\n I started to walk away, and she got in my face again. So she told me again this is what she wanted to do. After about 10 minutes of trying to shoo her away—and I love Jackie Reese, I’ve been involved with her more than once helping individual employees get through some stuff. So she won me over, and I went in with her. It was the best thing I could have done.

[Assistant] You think it helped people?

[User] Oh, it helped them for damn sure. I heard that later from them, yes.

[Assistant] It was a good decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jackie Reese. Why I should forget Jackie Reese, because I’ve known her for a long time.\n\n Before I left the control center on the day that we lost Columbia, Jackie Reese came up and got in my face. She wanted to go into the Space Station control room and tell the people in there, tell them that she is available, and give them an initial briefing on how they can deal with this. Do her normal thing. I said, “No. No, no. We’re not going to do it. Not going to do it.”\n\n I started to walk away, and she got in my face again. So she told me again this is what she wanted to do. After about 10 minutes of trying to shoo her away—and I love Jackie Reese, I’ve been involved with her more than once helping individual employees get through some stuff. So she won me over, and I went in with her. It was the best thing I could have done.

[Assistant] You think it helped people?

[User] Oh, it helped them for damn sure. I heard that later from them, yes.

[Assistant] It was a good decision.

[User] Yes. But it took a little bit for me to get there, to get to that point. Jackie, she did a good job.

[Assistant] You are supposed to be tough, right? That challenges that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it helped them for damn sure. I heard that later from them, yes.

[Assistant] It was a good decision.

[User] Yes. But it took a little bit for me to get there, to get to that point. Jackie, she did a good job.

[Assistant] You are supposed to be tough, right? That challenges that.

[User] That’s where these tears come from, see. Tough, yes.

[Assistant] I understand. It’s hard losing your friends and colleagues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But it took a little bit for me to get there, to get to that point. Jackie, she did a good job.

[Assistant] You are supposed to be tough, right? That challenges that.

[User] That’s where these tears come from, see. Tough, yes.

[Assistant] I understand. It’s hard losing your friends and colleagues.

[User] Again, I heard afterwards that people in there really appreciated that.

[Assistant] That was a good decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Again, I heard afterwards that people in there really appreciated that.

[Assistant] That was a good decision.

[User] It was good for her to want to do that, too.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] I think this might be a good stopping place for us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was good for her to want to do that, too.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] I think this might be a good stopping place for us.

[User] I think it might be, too.

[Assistant] I know it’s a more emotional interview than expected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They learned to fly. Yes, at that time, the six astronauts we had then, the scientist astronauts, they actually went to flight school. Nobody else went to flight school after that. Some of the guys came in, they’d already had some qualifications in the past, so they would get to fly—if somebody in the front seat would let them. Nobody was ever transitioned to pilot in command, at least in my watch during that time. They didn’t take an airplane out by themselves, but they would always angle around to go with somebody else. “I’ll go with anybody,” they’ll say, “throw me in the backseat, I’m going.”

[Assistant] They had so many hours they had to be in the air.

[User] Yes, 10 hours a month.

[Assistant] Which doesn’t seem like much, except that they had pretty full schedules, didn’t they?

[User] Yes, they had really full schedules. Once they got assigned to a flight, it was easy, though, because then the airplanes became available to them. It’s a pecking order, and if you’re an ASCAN that’s not assigned, even if you’ve graduated, it’s hard to get a seat in there, so they’d just always hunching around. Two hours is a 2-hour flight, but you just did touch-and-goes, that is, when you go and fly around again and you land and take off. That was all good because you were getting your hours.

[Assistant] Let me go back, too, because I don’t know if we’re really finished with Challenger, what impacts did you have, and how your job changed when the Return to Flight was up and going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were, but actually, by that time, I would let my team lead go and represent the commander and that person, they would do that. As far as safety, like earlier, no. Somebody else did that. I don’t know anything about the Hubble in terms of sharp edges. That’s somebody else that had to make that call, but the astronauts were part of that discussion. If they said they could do it, then we’d train them to do it. If they agreed it was doable, that’s good, because that’s their call. If they’d say it’s too damn dangerous to do, well, I’m not going to talk them into it. That whole thing, I’m very proud of what they did with that first one. After that, everybody knew a lot more about Hubble, you could go back, we tore it apart.\n\n Just sliding that first big-ass spectrometer in there with the new lens on it, it made a whole difference. Different cameras added, it was great. I was so impressed with these guys. Tom [Thomas D.] Jones and all the different people kept going up there all the time, and what is this guy’s name, the one that’s in Washington as the Chief Scientist?

[Assistant] Currently?

[User] Yes, he was up there twice.

[Assistant] John [M. Grunsfeld].

[User] Yes, Grunsfeld. Too many names, hundreds of names, if you think about it. He was up, he was an astronomer, he was trained as an astronomer, not trained as a mechanic. John is a super guy and I am so glad he is not here to see that I could not come up with his name.

[Assistant] Mechanical astronomer—it starts a new field now, mechanical astronomy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was up there twice.

[Assistant] John [M. Grunsfeld].

[User] Yes, Grunsfeld. Too many names, hundreds of names, if you think about it. He was up, he was an astronomer, he was trained as an astronomer, not trained as a mechanic. John is a super guy and I am so glad he is not here to see that I could not come up with his name.

[Assistant] Mechanical astronomer—it starts a new field now, mechanical astronomy.

[User] Yes, I know, he said, “This is really different than the career I thought I was going to have.”

[Assistant] You mentioned Hubble and you also mentioned the time that the three astronauts went out, and Kraft. Are there others that stick in your mind from all those Shuttle missions that there more difficulty in training in those missions, or were just the missions difficult so it needed additional training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, I would expect to be on the front page, right? But there was a time where we had the Federal Women's Program. I guess they don't have it anymore; I don't know. But they would highlight women and women's accomplishments. Once a year we'd have a banquet and honor somebody for helping women. I got in trouble one time because I was interviewed for the Roundup. Is there still a Roundup?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I was interviewed for the Roundup, and I said that my hope was that we would one day not need the Federal Women's Program. We don't have a Federal Men's Program. It should all be the same. You would have thought that I had taken the Lord's name in vain. I was really chastised for saying that. I thought it was fine for the program to highlight and get things going and make sure that women were taken care of, as they were climbing into this morass of engineering and operations. But my hope was that we'd get to a point we didn't need it, that it would all be the same. But I got in trouble for saying that. So one of my early lessons in politics. Not to say something should go away. Because then they say, “Well, she said we need to get rid of that.” That wasn't the point at all.\n\n But if you look back at—if you have the history stuff—you have access to all that. There's quite a bit in there, and quite a bit about what women have accomplished.

[Assistant] We have a list of folks we'd like to include in that book.

[User] I bet. Because there were some—in fact I've lost track of a lot of them.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most significant scientific accomplishments of the Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really can't. A little bit of stuff that I know, I probably shouldn't talk about. But I would say that—I won't call it national security. I'll call it our national priorities or whatever else. The space program has always been a very positive thing for our country, not just internally, but the rest of the world, we're known for our space program. The Russians are too, by the way, to quite an extent. I think that we have accomplished a great deal. A lot of people are still very excited about that and look up to us for having done it. I think that's very important. The national security issues, I won't comment on.

[Assistant] We have just a few minutes left, and I was curious if you could comment on this. I was doing some research about a year ago on Skylab and the wine controversy.

[User] I got a letter from you on that.

[Assistant] Yes. I was just curious if you had any involvement in that, since you were probably working with [G. Donald] Whedon and [Leo] Lutwak and their concerns. If you recall what the big debate was over, and your involvement in that.

[User] There was a lot of issues. You got a letter, I think, from Dr. [Paul C.] Rambaut.

[Assistant] I got a little bit of information from him, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just prior to the presidential election of 1992, I reorganized the leadership of the NASA Headquarters team and the leadership of a number of the 10 NASA Centers. The management team in place had a good understanding of the major tasks ahead. I left the details of implementation to the leadership team unless my guidance was required.

[Assistant] It also was intentional. Every piece was communicated down to every person.

[User] I don’t believe it was as hierarchical as you insinuate in your question. I tried to be very visible on the core issues and asked the staff to communicate more detailed yet important issues with their direct reports. I also visited each of the NASA Centers to talk directly to the employees and to take their questions in both large groups and in groups of employees without and supervision present.

[Assistant] What steps did you take to make sure that that message became the number one message?

[User] I was passionate about the subject and used different venues and communication techniques. I visited each Center periodically and at my staff meetings made it a point to talk about safety and other banner issues for the Agency. Six weeks before Shuttle launch, I personally interviewed each and every astronaut on issues of crew safety and factors crucial to mission success. I tried not to tell people what to do but to just raise their consciousness on issues pertaining to safety and mission success.\n\n A few hours before each launch at Kennedy Space Center, I asked many of those in attendance that were at the Kennedy Center to watch the launch to understand that there are seven people on the Space Shuttle who would be risking their lives to help America open the space frontier. I told them that the odds are one in seventy-two that they may not come back. Also I told them that since I was in charge, I assumed responsibility and accountability if anything goes wrong and there is personal injury. I did this so the people at the control consoles on the ground and the astronauts on the controls in the Shuttle shouldn’t worry about being second guessed by investigators after the fact, while they must concentrate on making split second decisions to protect lives during the mission.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when you were talking about safety, you said it wasn’t just for human flight. You were also very interested in making sure the systems were safe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People could get hurt or die on the ground because we have high-temperature, high-pressure, we have complex systems. We could have explosions. We work with high voltage; people could get electrocuted. When one comes to the job, they ought to have the ability to go home, so clearly the complexity of the astronauts in real time is out there, but the people who work on the ground need to have confidence that safety systems are in place to protect their lives.\n\n There’s another aspect to it. I encouraged people to stop launches. Even if their concerns were later unfounded, there would be no retribution. I made it a point to give awards and congratulate people personally for stopping a launch if they were concerned about a safety issue. Schedule is not important, human lives are.

[Assistant] Can you share an example of one of those occurrences that happened?

[User] Yes. On one of the Shuttle launches, an employee was observing the launch tower and saw a pin hanging down that might have hit the Shuttle as it was taking off. The person requested a launch delay so the crew could remove the pin. When at NASA Kennedy, I asked for the name of the person who stopped the launch and gave him a special award in public. Safety first, schedule last.

[Assistant] Something so simple could have become so tragic.

[User] That Shuttle has 7,000,000 pounds of thrust lifting 4,000,000 pounds. By the time it hits the top of the tower, zero to 60 mph, that’s pretty fast for 4,000,000 pounds. When you have all that energy, the slightest flaw in operations could cause a very big problem.

[Assistant] Earlier, you also mentioned that one of your thoughts when you were considering the job was that you felt that exploration should have a purpose, a scientific measurement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. On one of the Shuttle launches, an employee was observing the launch tower and saw a pin hanging down that might have hit the Shuttle as it was taking off. The person requested a launch delay so the crew could remove the pin. When at NASA Kennedy, I asked for the name of the person who stopped the launch and gave him a special award in public. Safety first, schedule last.

[Assistant] Something so simple could have become so tragic.

[User] That Shuttle has 7,000,000 pounds of thrust lifting 4,000,000 pounds. By the time it hits the top of the tower, zero to 60 mph, that’s pretty fast for 4,000,000 pounds. When you have all that energy, the slightest flaw in operations could cause a very big problem.

[Assistant] Earlier, you also mentioned that one of your thoughts when you were considering the job was that you felt that exploration should have a purpose, a scientific measurement.

[User] Exploration should have a scientific underpinning as to why you’re undertaking the mission. Missions this early in the space exploration program should be driven by answering fundamental questions. I don’t believe exploration should occur just because we want to.

[Assistant] Share with us how you were able to maybe shape that belief in that concept while you were there as Administrator. How did you start to move the Agency into having that underpinning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Russians forgot more about what it was to live in space than the Americans ever knew. We’d been to the Moon, but we weren’t familiar with orbital stations and associated operations. America operated Skylab years before Mir but didn’t have the depth of experience that Russia learned from the highly modular Mir, which was very close in concept to ISS. NASA astronauts and engineers learned many lessons valuable to the redesign of ISS and its operational plan once it was launched to orbit.

[Assistant] You talked about the Soyuz providing a dual capability because a Shuttle could go to Station, Soyuz could go to Station. There was a time during your tenure that you were hoping to introduce a new launch vehicle, or another capability with the X-33. Could you talk about your effort to bring that technology online?

[User] Yes. I was concerned that as wonderful a machine as the Shuttle was, it was outdated in technology, it was expensive to operate, and we needed a new launch system that had significantly increased reliability and much lower operating cost.\n\n An open competition was run, and I think Lockheed Martin won with their single stage to orbit design. It was based on a rocket engine technology developed decades ago but never went to space, the linear aerospike engine. It used the vacuum of space as one of the boundaries on the rocket nozzle so you could have virtual nozzle area control as you’re going up to altitude to improve performance. There were other audacious technologies that offered up much promise.\n\n Unfortunately I was not able to get enough money appropriated for the program, only the one billion dollars that I was able to reprogram within the NASA budget. As a result, when Lockheed ran into technical difficulties, NASA didn’t have the financial resources to continue the effort to flight demonstration. Lockheed did an excellent job given the tight financial circumstances. To this day I regret not being able to reach out to the congress and White House to make the X-33 a reality. As NASA Administrator I must accept the responsibility for the failure of the X-33 program.

[Assistant] Close to the end of your tenure, you pulled together a Decadal Planning Team.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was your intent for that, or the mission for that group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was concerned that as wonderful a machine as the Shuttle was, it was outdated in technology, it was expensive to operate, and we needed a new launch system that had significantly increased reliability and much lower operating cost.\n\n An open competition was run, and I think Lockheed Martin won with their single stage to orbit design. It was based on a rocket engine technology developed decades ago but never went to space, the linear aerospike engine. It used the vacuum of space as one of the boundaries on the rocket nozzle so you could have virtual nozzle area control as you’re going up to altitude to improve performance. There were other audacious technologies that offered up much promise.\n\n Unfortunately I was not able to get enough money appropriated for the program, only the one billion dollars that I was able to reprogram within the NASA budget. As a result, when Lockheed ran into technical difficulties, NASA didn’t have the financial resources to continue the effort to flight demonstration. Lockheed did an excellent job given the tight financial circumstances. To this day I regret not being able to reach out to the congress and White House to make the X-33 a reality. As NASA Administrator I must accept the responsibility for the failure of the X-33 program.

[Assistant] Close to the end of your tenure, you pulled together a Decadal Planning Team.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was your intent for that, or the mission for that group?

[User] I wanted to leave those who followed me with thoughts to help them succeed in a very difficult job. The NASA team did a wonderful job in preparing the decadal plan. I’m very proud of them all.

[Assistant] Were you hoping one of those items to consider included finding a way to get to Mars?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was your intent for that, or the mission for that group?

[User] I wanted to leave those who followed me with thoughts to help them succeed in a very difficult job. The NASA team did a wonderful job in preparing the decadal plan. I’m very proud of them all.

[Assistant] Were you hoping one of those items to consider included finding a way to get to Mars?

[User] That would be wonderful and establishing that we could mine rare earths and precious metals on a near-Earth asteroid, which would be even more inspirational.

[Assistant] When we first started, you actually mentioned that that was one of the areas that you would have like to have pursued as well as going to Mars.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted to leave those who followed me with thoughts to help them succeed in a very difficult job. The NASA team did a wonderful job in preparing the decadal plan. I’m very proud of them all.

[Assistant] Were you hoping one of those items to consider included finding a way to get to Mars?

[User] That would be wonderful and establishing that we could mine rare earths and precious metals on a near-Earth asteroid, which would be even more inspirational.

[Assistant] When we first started, you actually mentioned that that was one of the areas that you would have like to have pursued as well as going to Mars.

[User] I was very open about it during my tenure. Why did I pick an asteroid? If one travels to the Moon, which is one-sixth the mass of the Earth, you need the extra energy for a controlled fall to power out of the Moon’s gravitational field on returning to Earth. If one travels to a near-Earth asteroid, it takes less energy because one has to only escape the Earth’s gravitational field, since asteroids are so small, they have negligible gravitational fields. Unlike the Moon, asteroids have highly concentrated quantities of precious metals, rare earths and important metals for building things. There’s one asteroid, whose name escapes me now, that has more water than planet Earth. There’s commercial and space exploration opportunities on the near-Earth asteroids.

[Assistant] One of the areas that we haven’t had a chance to talk too much about is interest in going beyond low-Earth orbit into—to go back to your sign—the solar system. I know that you created the Origins Program so that we would have missions to possibly investigate the origins of the universe. Can you talk about the interests of that and some of the challenges of providing the path for that program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of it. And running out of gas and getting hit up for bribes in Mexico City, um, which again, I learned from my mom, just be really, really, really loud and people don't like to be embarrassed. So she's like screaming, like shouting at the cop. What, sir? Are you telling me we have to pay a bribe? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that's the way things were going to be. And not only did we not pay a bribe, she got him in trouble. So anyway, so then we got back to the States, and I turned eight a month later.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
And therein, for the moment I'll refer maybe to Costa Rica at the end, but that is chapter one of my experience. And so the question that people always ask is, why did you go in? And so as I mentioned earlier, when I was eight, I mean, I said I was going to go, and it's not like I talked about it every year. But, you know, sometimes I would, I would bring it up. And so flash forward to undergrad. I went to undergraduate university at Emory University in Atlanta. I studied cultural anthropology. And I actually, and I immediately was like, oh yeah, I'm going to apply, I'm going to go to, after college for sure. But I wanted, I wanted to go to Africa because all of my anthropology studies were in Africa. And in its higher wisdom, Peace Corps sent me back to my neighborhood, as it were.

And so I went about eight, ten months after I graduated from college, after also serving in the National Park Service, just like my father, for some months, here in D.C. Yep. Um, in fact, I wore his, one of his shirts.

[Assistant] So did you, when you left Costa Rica, you came back to D.C.?

[User] To D.C.

[Assistant] And this is where you spent the intervening years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And therein, for the moment I'll refer maybe to Costa Rica at the end, but that is chapter one of my experience. And so the question that people always ask is, why did you go in? And so as I mentioned earlier, when I was eight, I mean, I said I was going to go, and it's not like I talked about it every year. But, you know, sometimes I would, I would bring it up. And so flash forward to undergrad. I went to undergraduate university at Emory University in Atlanta. I studied cultural anthropology. And I actually, and I immediately was like, oh yeah, I'm going to apply, I'm going to go to, after college for sure. But I wanted, I wanted to go to Africa because all of my anthropology studies were in Africa. And in its higher wisdom, Peace Corps sent me back to my neighborhood, as it were.

And so I went about eight, ten months after I graduated from college, after also serving in the National Park Service, just like my father, for some months, here in D.C. Yep. Um, in fact, I wore his, one of his shirts.

[Assistant] So did you, when you left Costa Rica, you came back to D.C.?

[User] To D.C.

[Assistant] And this is where you spent the intervening years?

[User] Well, we lived here. So we lived, actually, I guess I should say that this one thing, that when we came back, my language trauma was extreme. First of all, culture shock. I did not get the States and to some level, ever since then I never have, but the language. So here I was in D.C. public schools and I would say things that were literal translations of Spanish, made no sense. People would laugh because you know how kids are. And I'd come home. And of course my mother is a linguist, so she'd be like, she'd start laughing. She'd say, I'm laughing with you, not at you. This is fascinating. Let me take a note of this to, you know.

[Assistant] So you, did you speak Spanish at home when you were in Costa Rica?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To D.C.

[Assistant] And this is where you spent the intervening years?

[User] Well, we lived here. So we lived, actually, I guess I should say that this one thing, that when we came back, my language trauma was extreme. First of all, culture shock. I did not get the States and to some level, ever since then I never have, but the language. So here I was in D.C. public schools and I would say things that were literal translations of Spanish, made no sense. People would laugh because you know how kids are. And I'd come home. And of course my mother is a linguist, so she'd be like, she'd start laughing. She'd say, I'm laughing with you, not at you. This is fascinating. Let me take a note of this to, you know.

[Assistant] So you, did you speak Spanish at home when you were in Costa Rica?

[User] Well, no. So they tried to speak English in the home to keep my non-existent, my sister's nascent English going. And then they tried to, and so they were. So it was kind of.

[Assistant] English was a second language for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no. So they tried to speak English in the home to keep my non-existent, my sister's nascent English going. And then they tried to, and so they were. So it was kind of.

[Assistant] English was a second language for you.

[User] Absolutely. Yes, it is my second language. And so then when we got back to the States, they tried to institute Spanish at dinner, which for a year seemed somewhat normal, but by then I had gotten most of my English, and my sister and I had reestablished our relationship in English and our whole lives were in English. So then it felt just awkward and weird. So then we stopped that. But so we lived for about five, um, five. Let's see. No, no, more than that. Like all the way through junior high school, the end of junior high school, here. And then we moved to a tiny town in Texas on the Mexico border, Del Rio, when my father became assistant superintendent of a national park there. And, um, so, but I, because my language was laid down so early, it has never left me. And I mean, I translate for a living now, like for human rights and environmental and development, in community development organizations. So. So it came in handy.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Yeah. So the, the, there was a lot of, you know, it didn't endear me to kids that first year. I was like, it's not the way it's done in Costa Rica, you know? And I didn't. So, yeah, it was, it was just, that was, that was hard.

[Assistant] You had to learn a whole new culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Yes, it is my second language. And so then when we got back to the States, they tried to institute Spanish at dinner, which for a year seemed somewhat normal, but by then I had gotten most of my English, and my sister and I had reestablished our relationship in English and our whole lives were in English. So then it felt just awkward and weird. So then we stopped that. But so we lived for about five, um, five. Let's see. No, no, more than that. Like all the way through junior high school, the end of junior high school, here. And then we moved to a tiny town in Texas on the Mexico border, Del Rio, when my father became assistant superintendent of a national park there. And, um, so, but I, because my language was laid down so early, it has never left me. And I mean, I translate for a living now, like for human rights and environmental and development, in community development organizations. So. So it came in handy.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Yeah. So the, the, there was a lot of, you know, it didn't endear me to kids that first year. I was like, it's not the way it's done in Costa Rica, you know? And I didn't. So, yeah, it was, it was just, that was, that was hard.

[Assistant] You had to learn a whole new culture.

[User] Yeah. And it just, and it, there was things and like there were smells that I was used to having that I didn't have. There were tastes that I was just, there's just like an entire vibe which, you know, it was.

[Assistant] Yeah. And people were probably accustomed to luxuries that you never had when you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And it just, and it, there was things and like there were smells that I was used to having that I didn't have. There were tastes that I was just, there's just like an entire vibe which, you know, it was.

[Assistant] Yeah. And people were probably accustomed to luxuries that you never had when you were.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Amenities.

[User] Yeah. And of course, and my parents are very, very odd to begin with. I mean, we never had a TV. I didn't grow up with TV at any, like almost the entire time. And there was a lot of, you know, composting way before that was cool and organic garden and all this stuff. And so, but yeah, it was, it was a set of values that seemed to be very at odds with what I had experienced. And like language became the big, um, the most obvious manifestation of the problem in the sense that it was like every time I opened my mouth, I felt like I was talking this alien thing. Like it was like, I'm really not in Costa Rica anymore. Um. So and there are still things that are very hard for me to say in English that just seem more natural and better expressed in Spanish.

[Assistant] Have you ever encountered other Peace Corps kids that had similar experience to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Amenities.

[User] Yeah. And of course, and my parents are very, very odd to begin with. I mean, we never had a TV. I didn't grow up with TV at any, like almost the entire time. And there was a lot of, you know, composting way before that was cool and organic garden and all this stuff. And so, but yeah, it was, it was a set of values that seemed to be very at odds with what I had experienced. And like language became the big, um, the most obvious manifestation of the problem in the sense that it was like every time I opened my mouth, I felt like I was talking this alien thing. Like it was like, I'm really not in Costa Rica anymore. Um. So and there are still things that are very hard for me to say in English that just seem more natural and better expressed in Spanish.

[Assistant] Have you ever encountered other Peace Corps kids that had similar experience to you?

[User] Well, bizarrely, one time my sister and I were in a mall and I can't remember. It was somewhere like in Pentagon City, somewhere in the 'burbs of D.C., and she was visiting me. And so we were shopping and I saw this woman who was attending us, this young woman had a T- shirt on that said Costa Rica. So just to make conversation, I said, oh, that's so funny. My sister and I, the two of us lived there when we were in Peace Corps when we were little. And she said, so did I. And so here was someone who we had known as a kid, because the years were the same.

[Assistant] Oh, you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or there was overlap. And we don't remember her, but it was like. But the thing is, is that when I swore in in 1991 for Honduras, Peace Corps headquarters told me I was the first one that had ever done it in that way. So there's people like my sister who served but don't have any desire to go as an adult, or people who were conceived in Peace Corps and then went as adult or whatever.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But that had actually been, you know, my sister and I together were one adult, adult volunteer in terms of we each got half of a living allowance and half of the daily. So yeah, so I was told I was the first one at the time.

[Assistant] First.

[User] To have done it.

[Assistant] Yeah. First one who went as a Peace Corps dependent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that had actually been, you know, my sister and I together were one adult, adult volunteer in terms of we each got half of a living allowance and half of the daily. So yeah, so I was told I was the first one at the time.

[Assistant] First.

[User] To have done it.

[Assistant] Yeah. First one who went as a Peace Corps dependent.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then went independently later on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To have done it.

[Assistant] Yeah. First one who went as a Peace Corps dependent.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then went independently later on.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that doesn't surprise me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then went independently later on.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that doesn't surprise me.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you know how Peace Corps volunteers often kind of share some common bond, common experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that doesn't surprise me.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you know how Peace Corps volunteers often kind of share some common bond, common experience.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And this subgroup, very small subgroup of Peace Corps children, that must be something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you know how Peace Corps volunteers often kind of share some common bond, common experience.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And this subgroup, very small subgroup of Peace Corps children, that must be something.

[User] Well, and I've since actually met. I just realized, I've met one other one recently, but he was at the very beginning of the program. So we went in '72. I feel like he may have gone like in '70. It was like, it was like a couple of years earlier or something and it was Africa, so it didn't.

[Assistant] Okay. So tell us about your Honduras experience. So you applied and, as you mentioned, that you were the first Peace Corps dependent who then served as a volunteer. Peace Corps must have been really happy to have you. Did they try to get any PR off that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of difference.

[Assistant] But there was words and cultural things and?

[User] Yeah, I mean, it's the kind of difference where you going to a bar five times would get the difference. I mean, you would never not understand. You'd be like, oh, that's a slang word. Like let's say people in Boston say wicked.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I mean, but you, you're not going to not understand when someone says, oh that was a wicked party. You're not going to think people were being mean to each other. I mean, you're going to, you know, so it's that kind of thing. And yeah, I mean, and there's obviously there's cultural things, but that was not the part I was asking to be out of. Like the cultural, I wanted to be, like, I love that stuff. Um. So. So, yeah. I mean.

[Assistant] What was the name of the training site? Where did you do training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I mean, it's the kind of difference where you going to a bar five times would get the difference. I mean, you would never not understand. You'd be like, oh, that's a slang word. Like let's say people in Boston say wicked.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I mean, but you, you're not going to not understand when someone says, oh that was a wicked party. You're not going to think people were being mean to each other. I mean, you're going to, you know, so it's that kind of thing. And yeah, I mean, and there's obviously there's cultural things, but that was not the part I was asking to be out of. Like the cultural, I wanted to be, like, I love that stuff. Um. So. So, yeah. I mean.

[Assistant] What was the name of the training site? Where did you do training?

[User] Valle de Angeles. Well, the second one, the language?

[Assistant] The first. Well, both. The first place you ended up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I mean, to me, that was a major problem. So we got super tight. By the by, I was not getting tight with my, with my, with my group, not that I was, that I had problems with them. It's just that they built relationships which I don't know if last to this day, I wouldn't be surprised, but I didn't. And so, you know, when I would see them sometimes in Tegucigalpa, in the capital or for July 4th or, you know, we'd chitty chat. But there wasn't this like, oh God, I've got to come to your site and we got to like hook up and this and that.

[Assistant] So you weren't unfriendly. It was just that wasn't your purpose for being there?

[User] Exactly. I was choosing to go and hang with my host, I saw that as part and parcel. Like I saw.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Like I saw a lot of these things as both I wanted to do them because they're fun or nice, but also representational. Like there was also a lot of symbolism to me in Peace Corps. And one of the things, the second, the first, the second goal of Peace Corps is you have to be interacting and showing what gringos can be, ideally a good thing. And, you know, and building those relationships such that peace becomes something tangible. And so to me, I saw more value. I mean, to be very honest, I saw more value building the relationship. Now, I was very lucky that we happened to click with my family, like if it had been eh, then maybe that would have petered out after a little bit. But it was like every single day I wanted to hang out with Emelia and Nessandro, her brother, my, my brother, you know, and Dona Ella, the mother.

[Assistant] Do you think, having grown up in Costa Rica kind of made you feel more at home in that situation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. I was choosing to go and hang with my host, I saw that as part and parcel. Like I saw.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Like I saw a lot of these things as both I wanted to do them because they're fun or nice, but also representational. Like there was also a lot of symbolism to me in Peace Corps. And one of the things, the second, the first, the second goal of Peace Corps is you have to be interacting and showing what gringos can be, ideally a good thing. And, you know, and building those relationships such that peace becomes something tangible. And so to me, I saw more value. I mean, to be very honest, I saw more value building the relationship. Now, I was very lucky that we happened to click with my family, like if it had been eh, then maybe that would have petered out after a little bit. But it was like every single day I wanted to hang out with Emelia and Nessandro, her brother, my, my brother, you know, and Dona Ella, the mother.

[Assistant] Do you think, having grown up in Costa Rica kind of made you feel more at home in that situation?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you, you really felt comfortable among your host family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you, you really felt comfortable among your host family?

[User] Yeah. No, that's actually a very, very good question. I can't believe I didn't even address that earlier because there are, I feel to this day, way more comfortable in Latin America than I do here. Full stop. And I'm very, very touchy. I love to hug. I love to kiss. These are things that, and in the way I'm talking, you can't see it on the video. Everyone is listening, I mean, on the audio. But like, I'm moving my hands like a tornado and, yeah, and so Latin Americans constantly think that I'm from Latin America. They cannot believe I'm a gringo. And so when I hit Honduras, it was like fish in the water.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you is, uh, it's very common that people go to completely, a place where they have no concept of the experience, right? They go from Kansas to Tanzania or, you know, somewhere in the States to an island somewhere, you know. And it's a dramatic experience for them. But for you, Honduras was probably very similar to the place you'd grown up, the first five, the five years that your parents were there.

[User] Yeah. And I, it was very, it was very similar. And I'd also gone back a number of times to Costa Rica, by the way, including a semester in college where I was living in Curridabat, my same village. How bizarre is that? I was living with a host family and that's where I was placed. But yeah. So to me, you know, now what I did try to be careful with was to say to myself, Emily, you didn't live in Honduras, so put your anthropology hat on and try to sense those differences. Like, don't.

[Assistant] Don't assume it's the same.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was, it was very. It was in the southwest of the country in the Department of La Paz. And so a week, I don't know how other places do it, but in Honduras, like maybe a month-ish before we were going to be done with our training, we had to go, and by then they would say, okay, your site is going to be X, Y, zed.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Figure out how to go there and go and find a place to live and kind of basically just introduce yourself and then you're going to spend a week there and then you come back. And so, um, I took the two very long bus rides there. So it was like about a, well, it had just. Anyway, it was about a five-ish hour bus ride from Tegucigalpa to the department seat of La Paz. And from there, a two and one half hour busito ride when in the dry season. I later learned in the rainy season it was quite a bit longer because sometimes you have to completely ford little creeks and whatever. But anyway, so I get there and the only place that I could. So there was strictures, right? I'm a single woman, right?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So I, I have to live, a little bit because of safety, but a lot of the stuff that has happened that we've all heard of had not happened yet. But it was more like respectability, like, oh you hussy, you're living by yourself? No, no, no.

[Assistant] Keep up appearances, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So basically the only place and because my village had 300 people.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And the only place was this one section of a family's home. And so, you know, that was going to be, oh, and I know I'm jumping around a bit, but I just want to say one comment that Peace Corps, my trainers, wanted to place me in La Ceiba, which is the third largest city on the north coast of Honduras. And they wanted me to be a beekeeping professor in the national university there, or the outgrowth or the outpost of the national university there. And I said absolutely not. I'm not here to come, to be in a city, to have that kind of job. I want to be in the bush. So luckily I, so, so that would that explains why I was placed in La Florida de Opatoro, in the Department of La Paz. And so.

[Assistant] La Florida?

[User] La Florida.

[Assistant] Is the name of the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the only place was this one section of a family's home. And so, you know, that was going to be, oh, and I know I'm jumping around a bit, but I just want to say one comment that Peace Corps, my trainers, wanted to place me in La Ceiba, which is the third largest city on the north coast of Honduras. And they wanted me to be a beekeeping professor in the national university there, or the outgrowth or the outpost of the national university there. And I said absolutely not. I'm not here to come, to be in a city, to have that kind of job. I want to be in the bush. So luckily I, so, so that would that explains why I was placed in La Florida de Opatoro, in the Department of La Paz. And so.

[Assistant] La Florida?

[User] La Florida.

[Assistant] Is the name of the village?

[User] And then, but you have to say the rest of it because there's three La Floridas. D-E, de, Opatoro, O-P-A-T-O-R-O, in the Department of La Paz. Um, yeah, I realized that when I was telling people I live in La Florida and they're like, cual, which one? I was like, what do you mean which one? So, so yeah. So that in that one week kind of towards the end of training, I went and I got my spot. And so then I was twinned with the IHCAFE, which is the Instituto Hondureño del Café, the Honduran Coffee Institute. So it's a governmental, um, entity that provides training to coffee makers and like, oh, there's a blight. We'll show you how to fix the blight in the coffee and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] A coffee association.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] La Florida.

[Assistant] Is the name of the village?

[User] And then, but you have to say the rest of it because there's three La Floridas. D-E, de, Opatoro, O-P-A-T-O-R-O, in the Department of La Paz. Um, yeah, I realized that when I was telling people I live in La Florida and they're like, cual, which one? I was like, what do you mean which one? So, so yeah. So that in that one week kind of towards the end of training, I went and I got my spot. And so then I was twinned with the IHCAFE, which is the Instituto Hondureño del Café, the Honduran Coffee Institute. So it's a governmental, um, entity that provides training to coffee makers and like, oh, there's a blight. We'll show you how to fix the blight in the coffee and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] A coffee association.

[User] Yeah, well, but it was a governmental body and so IHCAFE. So I was twinned with them and I had a technical relationship with them. I mean, they had to okay my vacation slips, you know, sometimes I would do a little bit. But in the mean, right after I moved there, the IHCAFE office in my little village closed like within a month. So in the main, I was on my own. I found the beekeepers I worked with on my own. I kind of put the word out and people would come to my house and say, oh, I'm a beekeeper, you know? So. So I didn't really have a host country partner. Not really.

[Assistant] So you didn't report to anybody?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, that's something technically I did, every now and then, because this guy was really nice. The one who when my, when the office of IHCAFE closed in La Florida, it kind of was absorbed. The one staffer there in the office of Marcala, which was the two and a half hour away place, the last bus.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] That was where there was a phone, when it worked, electricity and vegetables.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And four other Peace Corps volunteers. And so, so I would, you know, when I was there, I'd go and I'd check in and they'd say, oh, how's the beekeeping? But it was, it was more like a friendly kind of.

[Assistant] In other words, you were pretty much on your own.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was where there was a phone, when it worked, electricity and vegetables.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And four other Peace Corps volunteers. And so, so I would, you know, when I was there, I'd go and I'd check in and they'd say, oh, how's the beekeeping? But it was, it was more like a friendly kind of.

[Assistant] In other words, you were pretty much on your own.

[User] Yeah, for all intents and purposes, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

[Assistant] Were there any other volunteers in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And four other Peace Corps volunteers. And so, so I would, you know, when I was there, I'd go and I'd check in and they'd say, oh, how's the beekeeping? But it was, it was more like a friendly kind of.

[Assistant] In other words, you were pretty much on your own.

[User] Yeah, for all intents and purposes, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

[Assistant] Were there any other volunteers in?

[User] No. And there had not been any for about eight years prior. And those had been a married couple and it was kind of funny because the first thing you are told is, that you're told to do, is like find out who was there, what the rep was. Was it, you know, do you have to clean up anything, you know? So, like, oh, this was a super sweet couple. And, you know, we never could understand the man's Spanish. We didn't really understand why they were here, but they were real sweet. And I was like, okay, that could be worse. Not ideal. I mean, clearly they did not express through their work in any way what Peace Corps was about. Because every single person, even the gray hairs, learned what Peace Corps is about in Florida through me. Like I'd say, now that I'm telling you, does any of this ring a bell? Like, no. They just kind of wandered around.

[Assistant] So they were nice, but we don't know what they were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You need to have an answer. And I thought, well, I know, I don't need to, I didn't have to think about this. This is, ah, because I want to save the world. I'm like, oh, my parents and Costa Rica, blah blah. So flash forward. I'm asked this and suddenly I'm like, [gasps]. And I got this wave of heat. And I was like, what am I doing here? How can I say what I'm doing here without hurting their dignity?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Oh, I'm here because you people don't know how to do your beekeeping. Like, no. Like how? And so I, I swallowed hard, took another couple of sips of my Coke, and I was like, well, you know, I have some book learning about beekeeping, and there's a lot of field experience here about beekeeping. So I figure if we put that together, that could be like the magic bullet. We could really, because there had been the, the Africanized bee had come up from South America and mostly unlettered farmers who were doing a ton of the beekeeping in Honduras, burnt thousands and thousands of hives wholesale out of fear. And so Honduras went from an exporting country to an importing country. So Peace Corps was like.

[Assistant] Oh, they were afraid of those bees?

[User] Yeah. Because suddenly the thing, the management techniques that they had used for years, some went like, wait a minute, they just stung and killed my chicken and my pig and the kid. And so, so, I said, so with that in mind, I said, you know, I know that there used to be a lot more hives here. And so I figure if we work together, maybe we can, you know. And I looked around and I paused and they're like, oh okay. And then I said, oh, you know, and it's Peace Corps. Well, and days after that, there were other questions like, am I cia? “Cia” meaning C-I-A.

[Assistant] Oh, right, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we just didn't even bring it up, especially because Pedro Daniele lived on land of Richie Rich's that was given to him, quote, for free. But of course, he's given like pathetic $2 a day wage. Anyway, so I got his, um, salary, his pay raised and his, and he's like, you know, Emelia? And this is one of the most beautiful things. We had the most amazing, amazing friendship. And he would say, I am seen more respectfully in town because you're my friend, because I have had third grade education. My wife has had none. My father had none. My girls are now, you know, in elementary. But you're my friend and you spend time talking to me. And of course, years later, when he would talk about when the postman would bring letters from me, he'd be like. And he wasn't like.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Lording it over people. He was just so proud. And I said, well, I'm proud to have you as my friend. You're, you're enriching my life. And so we had very, very deep conversations about, you know, I paid for his wife to get her tubes tied. Talk about, oh my God, that was actually against Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is probably something he never dreamed of, was having a friend from a foreign country, from America.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a big deal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lording it over people. He was just so proud. And I said, well, I'm proud to have you as my friend. You're, you're enriching my life. And so we had very, very deep conversations about, you know, I paid for his wife to get her tubes tied. Talk about, oh my God, that was actually against Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is probably something he never dreamed of, was having a friend from a foreign country, from America.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a big deal.

[User] I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Il Postino.

[Assistant] No, I haven't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a big deal.

[User] I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Il Postino.

[Assistant] No, I haven't.

[User] Okay, The Postman. You know, it was about, it was about when, um, children author. Oh my God. Pablo Neruda left and he went to Italy, I guess, during the dirty wars in Chile. And so it's about this, this, he becomes friends with this very humble postman. And so in one scene, the postman, you know, Neruda is now gone. And he's written him a letter. And he just stares at the envelope and he looks it over and over and over. And he's like, this is the first letter I've ever gotten from someone. That is what Pedro told me. No, it was very intense. So my, so part of it was working with beekeepers, part of it was giving bee biology classes, like, don't be scared kids. This is, you know, this is a good thing.

[Assistant] You were teaching children about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Il Postino.

[Assistant] No, I haven't.

[User] Okay, The Postman. You know, it was about, it was about when, um, children author. Oh my God. Pablo Neruda left and he went to Italy, I guess, during the dirty wars in Chile. And so it's about this, this, he becomes friends with this very humble postman. And so in one scene, the postman, you know, Neruda is now gone. And he's written him a letter. And he just stares at the envelope and he looks it over and over and over. And he's like, this is the first letter I've ever gotten from someone. That is what Pedro told me. No, it was very intense. So my, so part of it was working with beekeepers, part of it was giving bee biology classes, like, don't be scared kids. This is, you know, this is a good thing.

[Assistant] You were teaching children about?

[User] About the biology of the bees.

[Assistant] Did you have to go to the school and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they are carrying a different pheromone from their queen. And these that are in the feral colony and the eaves have another. And then they, bam! And so they get into this massive, massive ball of fighting bees. The horse, right above the horses. The horses starts to like pull and pull. They scare the bees. The bees sting a couple of horses to death and one manages to get away, runs to a like a pond kind of thing, submerges. The bees can fly for quite a long time. They flew. They waited above the water. The thing comes up for air and they stung that horse too.

[Assistant] Whoa.

[User] So I'm like, oh, oh my God. This is the worst possible thing. So I was like, okay, we're going to have some talks everyone, okay? We're going to talk about feral colonies and everything. And I was like, these are not my bees. There's nothing about these bees that are mine. I've never had, you know. So that was a little traumatic.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But I, but all these things, I address them straight on. I was like, don't, you know, just.

[Assistant] So they weren't going to execute you right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I'm like, oh, oh my God. This is the worst possible thing. So I was like, okay, we're going to have some talks everyone, okay? We're going to talk about feral colonies and everything. And I was like, these are not my bees. There's nothing about these bees that are mine. I've never had, you know. So that was a little traumatic.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But I, but all these things, I address them straight on. I was like, don't, you know, just.

[Assistant] So they weren't going to execute you right there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Throw you in jail for killing horses.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I was very, oh God, it took forever, it took forever. Um, so that was. And then another thing. See, I'm just, sorry. I'm really. And then another thing is my mother and I cooked up a way to get good medicine to my little clinic. I got to be very close with the clinic there. And the way it works as a village that small would never have a dentist or a doctor. But they do their servicio social, their social service to get their degrees. They have to go one or two years into the bush. So we got, you know, national level medical professionals for brief, you know, for a year, two years at a time. So I got to be totally buddies with them. So my mom went around to all the doctors' offices and clinics and hospitals in Santa Fe and was like, hey, I know you got like all these, like, like, let's say.

[Assistant] Samples?

[User] Samples of Advil or whatever, give them to me. And gave this whole story about me. And so I went there on a trip and I came back with massive amounts of drugs. I mean, like legal, I mean, medicine.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Well, coming in through customs was a little challenging.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Samples of Advil or whatever, give them to me. And gave this whole story about me. And so I went there on a trip and I came back with massive amounts of drugs. I mean, like legal, I mean, medicine.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Well, coming in through customs was a little challenging.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that.

[User] And so I happen to have, I have a big, big, um, wound on my leg where I got hit by a car when I was 16. So drama queen Goldman here, they're like seeing it and there's like purple pills and pink pills and green. I mean, there's like, it's like, my, my, I had a suitcase filled with medicine, with gauze, with Band-Aids, with paper tape. I mean, every pocket. Gloves, because they would use the same pair of gloves.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, coming in through customs was a little challenging.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that.

[User] And so I happen to have, I have a big, big, um, wound on my leg where I got hit by a car when I was 16. So drama queen Goldman here, they're like seeing it and there's like purple pills and pink pills and green. I mean, there's like, it's like, my, my, I had a suitcase filled with medicine, with gauze, with Band-Aids, with paper tape. I mean, every pocket. Gloves, because they would use the same pair of gloves.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, right.

[User] And so I started like, oh my God, to the, to the border and to the customs. I know, it's horrible. I have to take all this medicine. My leg, it's horrible. I have to take the pink ones in the morning. And then, and I was going on, and they're like, okay, senorita. Okay. And I was like, so I got through. I didn't have to pay any customs. And so with the only stricture that the wealthy people in the village, Richie Rich's family, were not allowed to have any of that. That was the one thing that was made. My mother and I were like, this is not, they can afford it.

[Assistant] They can buy it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, first of all, they would always say, where is your mother? Why are you here without your mother? And I'd be like, my mother is with my father, which of course was not answering what they were really saying. But they're like, why would you be coming here? You're not married. That's weird enough as it is.

[Assistant] Who let you come here alone?

[User] Yeah, but so the drinking situation. So sometimes I would have, you know, beers or whatever with other Peace Corps volunteers in Tegucigalpa. But in my site I was, again, symbolism was so important. I was like, I will not be caught at any point with any alcohol. Like, I don't want them to. I don't, there's enough things that they might think were weird.

[Assistant] Yeah. You don't want to jeopardize your.

[User] Yeah. So the only two times that liquor passed my lips in that village are both kind of cool. One was it was my first birthday. My birthday's in June, and I swore in, I mean, I got there in May, so I should say my second, technically my second birthday. Well, yes. And in my site. So I had been there a year. By then Blanca Rose Marie Martinez was my best female friend. And so she, you know, she had been raised a bit in Tegucigalpa and she had gone to college in Tegucigalpa. So she kind of was a bigger town person. But all of her family, you know, but she lived there all her life, mostly other than college time. So she's like, Emilia. And she's like whispering. She's like, we have to celebrate your birthday. And then she suddenly pulls out this, is a fifth a little bottle like this? Is that which you call a fifth?

[Assistant] No, a fifth would be bigger than that. Maybe a pint.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun. That was an exciting time. And both of us looked at each other and we got these kind of sneaky grins on our faces as we’re looking, going, “They would never let us do this, but let’s go try it.” And “Crip” let us do it, so that was pretty neat, too. We had a neat crew. The crew was really a lot of fun, because we really melded and meshed well together.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a few more questions about the mission. This was the first mission in which a woman was supposed to go out on the first spacewalk.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And there were two women on the flight as well.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] How did the media react to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I feel like I could go back up if I had to, and refuel. Now, of course, there’s always the problem of rendezvousing with the satellite and grappling it and getting positioned and all that, and then carrying the fuel up with you. I think they decided that by the time you cost the training and the Shuttle flight itself, it would be cheaper or as cheap to launch another satellite. But it can be done. If we ever decide to do it, it can be done.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about your next flight. Your next flight was very different from this first flight.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] It was actually a classified mission with the Department of Defense.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell us how it was different, or compare and contrast to the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There probably is a little bit in the training time frame, because you’re going to end up training as a team, and maybe one day the red team has their sim [simulation] and the blue team has it the next day. When you’re done, you ask you training team, “Well, how did we do compared to those guys?”\n\n There’s always that natural competitiveness, but nothing that ever gets kind of vicious or anything, and you’ve all got the same mission, to make your mission as successful as you possibly can. That’s the one thing you want to do. And so we were all working toward that purpose. So that worked out very, very well. I think a lot of attention has to be made into crew selections and how they’re made, and we’ll probably get into that later. Because I think that’s very, very important for the success of the mission as it goes on.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you got to serve as commander, essentially, when you were in charge.

[User] Yes. On orbit, anyway. Didn’t get to land it.

[Assistant] Well, you at least got to maneuver it.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Because of this, were you in charge of any experiments on board the orbiter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. On orbit, anyway. Didn’t get to land it.

[Assistant] Well, you at least got to maneuver it.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Because of this, were you in charge of any experiments on board the orbiter?

[User] I was backup on most of the experiments, on a lot of them. I did some mid-deck-type experiments, some eye experiments. For Helen [W.] Lane, in Space and Life Sciences, I drew blood samples, and Henry did some nutritional-type studies and things like that. But as far as the payload bay experiments, no, those were the payload specialists’ and Mike Foale’s and Kathy’s responsibility, and I was responsible for the orbiter.\n\n So I had to spend a lot of my time in training learning about the orbiter and the orbiter systems and how to operate them, and emergency procedures and all the stuff that goes with that. Because when I was on board, I was probably the only orbiter person on my shift, so I had to be ready for that. Of course, I mean, five feet away is Charlie and Brian, if I ever need them for anything, so it’s no problem.

[Assistant] Well, you actually did spend a good deal of time working on the SAREX experiment. Can you tell us about the experiment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The last one’s a quick one. You mentioned your call sign when you were talking with the ham operators. Did you have a specific sign you used all the time?

[User] I was N5WQC. That’s my ham radio license number, and that’s what you use. N5WQC. And I haven’t done much ham radio operating at all since that flight, but that was really a lot of fun. I enjoyed that a lot.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything else that you would like talk about? Something that we may have missed?

[User] Just, one of the things that I was involved in was the selection of John [H.] Glenn to fly.

[Assistant] Yes, let’s talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, right now, I run an auto parts store in the little town of Galena, Kansas. And that basically is what I do now.

[Assistant] OK, then think back to when you went into the Peace Corps. What were you doing the year before you went in?

[User] I was in high school when I went in. I was one of the eighteen year olds that went into the Peace Corps. We first found out about Peace Corps through our vocational agriculture teacher who right before we graduated told us there was a new program that had come out, was started, and that some of us might be interested in. The more he talked about it, the more interested I got. Because at that particular time, I really didn't want to go on to college at that point when I got out of school, but we were young, we were idealistic, and we thought we could go out and change the world. And this was at the time Kennedy was in as president. We just had a lot of sense of adventure and wanted to see what was going on in the world.

[Assistant] That sounds like a good reason. You already talked about how you heard about the Peace Corps and what you did and what made you decide to go, and did you have any particular country or any place that you wanted to go?

[User] South America and always had a calling for me. I didn't have any particular country at all. I just returned from south. I really can't tell you why. South America appealed so much, but that was my desire.

[Assistant] Right, now after you join Peace Corps, what did your family have to say? Were they surprised or are they happy? Did they wonder what the heck was going on or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in high school when I went in. I was one of the eighteen year olds that went into the Peace Corps. We first found out about Peace Corps through our vocational agriculture teacher who right before we graduated told us there was a new program that had come out, was started, and that some of us might be interested in. The more he talked about it, the more interested I got. Because at that particular time, I really didn't want to go on to college at that point when I got out of school, but we were young, we were idealistic, and we thought we could go out and change the world. And this was at the time Kennedy was in as president. We just had a lot of sense of adventure and wanted to see what was going on in the world.

[Assistant] That sounds like a good reason. You already talked about how you heard about the Peace Corps and what you did and what made you decide to go, and did you have any particular country or any place that you wanted to go?

[User] South America and always had a calling for me. I didn't have any particular country at all. I just returned from south. I really can't tell you why. South America appealed so much, but that was my desire.

[Assistant] Right, now after you join Peace Corps, what did your family have to say? Were they surprised or are they happy? Did they wonder what the heck was going on or what?

[User] No, they didn't seem surprised about it at all, but they were very supportive. That is what I wanted to do. That was fine with them.

[Assistant] After you joined, were you and were there was there any were there any reservations on your part? Like, what did I get myself into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] South America and always had a calling for me. I didn't have any particular country at all. I just returned from south. I really can't tell you why. South America appealed so much, but that was my desire.

[Assistant] Right, now after you join Peace Corps, what did your family have to say? Were they surprised or are they happy? Did they wonder what the heck was going on or what?

[User] No, they didn't seem surprised about it at all, but they were very supportive. That is what I wanted to do. That was fine with them.

[Assistant] After you joined, were you and were there was there any were there any reservations on your part? Like, what did I get myself into?

[User] No, I don't think we had time to have any reservations because the when we got our invitation, everything seemed to happen somewhere. But the first thing I know, we got an invitation to take up our training at Arizona State University, out of Tempe, Arizona. All of this happened right after I graduated and we started our training in June, so there really wasn't much time to really get too many second thoughts. Just the excitement of getting to go and see if an 18 year old could make it.

[Assistant] So what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they didn't seem surprised about it at all, but they were very supportive. That is what I wanted to do. That was fine with them.

[Assistant] After you joined, were you and were there was there any were there any reservations on your part? Like, what did I get myself into?

[User] No, I don't think we had time to have any reservations because the when we got our invitation, everything seemed to happen somewhere. But the first thing I know, we got an invitation to take up our training at Arizona State University, out of Tempe, Arizona. All of this happened right after I graduated and we started our training in June, so there really wasn't much time to really get too many second thoughts. Just the excitement of getting to go and see if an 18 year old could make it.

[Assistant] So what project were you invited to join?

[User] We were invited to join Bolivia II rural development project.

[Assistant] Ok, and what did you do, any preparation before you went in because you were going to be gone for a couple of years or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think we had time to have any reservations because the when we got our invitation, everything seemed to happen somewhere. But the first thing I know, we got an invitation to take up our training at Arizona State University, out of Tempe, Arizona. All of this happened right after I graduated and we started our training in June, so there really wasn't much time to really get too many second thoughts. Just the excitement of getting to go and see if an 18 year old could make it.

[Assistant] So what project were you invited to join?

[User] We were invited to join Bolivia II rural development project.

[Assistant] Ok, and what did you do, any preparation before you went in because you were going to be gone for a couple of years or anything?

[User] I had no preparation before I went in other than just what we had learned in our vocational agricultural experience on the farm.

[Assistant] Now, can you tell me a little bit about the training, where it took place, who the faculty were, anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were invited to join Bolivia II rural development project.

[Assistant] Ok, and what did you do, any preparation before you went in because you were going to be gone for a couple of years or anything?

[User] I had no preparation before I went in other than just what we had learned in our vocational agricultural experience on the farm.

[Assistant] Now, can you tell me a little bit about the training, where it took place, who the faculty were, anything like that?

[User] Well, I don't remember the name of all of the faculty. The training took place, our first cycle was at Arizona State University. When we arrived there, they put us up in the dorms, the old athletic dorms, and there was.

[Assistant] We were talking about training and you had got to Tempe, Arizona.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no preparation before I went in other than just what we had learned in our vocational agricultural experience on the farm.

[Assistant] Now, can you tell me a little bit about the training, where it took place, who the faculty were, anything like that?

[User] Well, I don't remember the name of all of the faculty. The training took place, our first cycle was at Arizona State University. When we arrived there, they put us up in the dorms, the old athletic dorms, and there was.

[Assistant] We were talking about training and you had got to Tempe, Arizona.

[User] At Tempe, Arizona, they put a in the athletic dorms there. The first part of it, we went through a series of tests that, psychological and for what particular purpose I’m not sure. But I know that at the end of the cycle, we went through them again, so I say this for probably some kind of an experiment so they can see what kind of changes might have occurred over the years, the experience. People there had had set us up to work out on the Indian reservation also. We're going to spend the first month at the university and the second month they're going to stay at the Indian reservation, out on Baseline Road, just west of Phoenix. So Ben Bracken and I went, two 18 year olds had both been school bus drivers in school, so. We were assigned to ride the busses to take the group to and from the Indian reservation. We’d get up at three o'clock in the morning, go get the busses, come back to the dorm, pick everybody up and drive out to the Indian reservation. And we'd get off the busses. We would go run, do our physical exercise. We'd run a mile before breakfast, after breakfast in the community room. And then we would do different classes, do whatever training we had that was still going in. Also, part of our field training, we're setting up our creditors and we will go live in. Well, we were on the Indian reservation. And we took our area studies there, surveying.

[Assistant] What do you mean by area studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the area studies they had the anthropologists and people that were familiar with where we were going in Bolivia, they'd come in and give us lessons on what to expect when we got to. What the topography was, what the people were like. And I think that we need know. Then after we would finish out on the desert, because this was in June and very hot, so around noon, we would load back up, go back into the university, have our lunch in the cafeteria there, and then we would have our language studies and other studies in our last class and at about nine o'clock at night.

[Assistant] All day long. What was that the only training that you had?

[User] No, after Arizona State then we went to the Peace Corps training camp in Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a bit about that?

[User] And there seems to be a lot of it, I think, for your confidence building, of course, that's where we had a lot of survival training. We had to spend the night in the jungle by ourselves after the. We walk across the island of farther away from point A to point B and different groups, and we took drown proofing courses where we had to swim in the ocean for a mile in coveralls. We had to be able to stay afloat in a swimming pool for at least 30 minutes with our hands tied behind our back. This was just generally a confidence building course, but of course, that was after the training we had in Arizona State University. This was more or less a picnic. We enjoyed it. We did the rock climbing there and rappelling. And we encountered snails.

[Assistant] Was that the only place that you went in, in Puerto Rico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, after Arizona State then we went to the Peace Corps training camp in Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a bit about that?

[User] And there seems to be a lot of it, I think, for your confidence building, of course, that's where we had a lot of survival training. We had to spend the night in the jungle by ourselves after the. We walk across the island of farther away from point A to point B and different groups, and we took drown proofing courses where we had to swim in the ocean for a mile in coveralls. We had to be able to stay afloat in a swimming pool for at least 30 minutes with our hands tied behind our back. This was just generally a confidence building course, but of course, that was after the training we had in Arizona State University. This was more or less a picnic. We enjoyed it. We did the rock climbing there and rappelling. And we encountered snails.

[Assistant] Was that the only place that you went in, in Puerto Rico?

[User] No, we have a training camp in Puerto Rico, we went to the college at Mayaguez, the agricultural college there, where we took a study of tropical plants and also more Spanish. Because Spanish was the language that we were going to use. Which later, when we got to country, we found out that not only a lot of the people, Spanish was their second language and Quechua and Aymara were their first.

[Assistant] Ok, so in hindsight, did the training prepare you for what you were going to expect in Bolivia, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there seems to be a lot of it, I think, for your confidence building, of course, that's where we had a lot of survival training. We had to spend the night in the jungle by ourselves after the. We walk across the island of farther away from point A to point B and different groups, and we took drown proofing courses where we had to swim in the ocean for a mile in coveralls. We had to be able to stay afloat in a swimming pool for at least 30 minutes with our hands tied behind our back. This was just generally a confidence building course, but of course, that was after the training we had in Arizona State University. This was more or less a picnic. We enjoyed it. We did the rock climbing there and rappelling. And we encountered snails.

[Assistant] Was that the only place that you went in, in Puerto Rico?

[User] No, we have a training camp in Puerto Rico, we went to the college at Mayaguez, the agricultural college there, where we took a study of tropical plants and also more Spanish. Because Spanish was the language that we were going to use. Which later, when we got to country, we found out that not only a lot of the people, Spanish was their second language and Quechua and Aymara were their first.

[Assistant] Ok, so in hindsight, did the training prepare you for what you were going to expect in Bolivia, do you think?

[User] I think the training probably helped prepare us for what went on in Bolivia. There was a lot of things that the only way you could really learn to them was to be in-country where they were taking place, but I think it gave me the confidence to go in and do what you had to do in an environment that was unfamiliar to me. And made that environment a little less unfamiliar.

[Assistant] Now, let's go back to. After that, then what happened, did you go to Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at that time, I wasn't too sure of what was going to happen when we got to Brattleboro. They gave us more Spanish. And here it is, so we're wandering around in our shirtsleeves. But after we've been there a couple of weeks, there was another group getting ready to come in that was going to the Dominican Republic, a group of teachers. And our reputation preceded us to Brattleboro, so they came in and the weekend that the group was to arrive, they took us for a weekend in Boston. So that they could talk to the other group before we did, we were known to be a vocal group and sometimes hostile due the extreme training we’d had.

[Assistant] Great. OK, so then eventually you got to Bolivia, right?

[User] Eventually, we did. In November.

[Assistant] And what when you got there, what was your initial reaction? What did you think?

[User] My first initial reaction was come in. We were flying out of we came out of Lima, Peru, up over the mountains. The mountains are approximately 400 miles wide in that area. And when we come up on the Altiplano as we were landing in La Paz, you were flying over terrain that had no trees. You could see the little villages below the farms, but the rock fences made up, so they grew potatoes. There was no vegetation inside anymore. And I looked out over the vast acres of nothingness and I thought, oh, my word, and I'm going to be here for two years.

[Assistant] A little sobering thought there. So what about the project, the Peace Corps staff, the local people, when you find it? Where were you finally assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eventually, we did. In November.

[Assistant] And what when you got there, what was your initial reaction? What did you think?

[User] My first initial reaction was come in. We were flying out of we came out of Lima, Peru, up over the mountains. The mountains are approximately 400 miles wide in that area. And when we come up on the Altiplano as we were landing in La Paz, you were flying over terrain that had no trees. You could see the little villages below the farms, but the rock fences made up, so they grew potatoes. There was no vegetation inside anymore. And I looked out over the vast acres of nothingness and I thought, oh, my word, and I'm going to be here for two years.

[Assistant] A little sobering thought there. So what about the project, the Peace Corps staff, the local people, when you find it? Where were you finally assigned?

[User] I was finally assigned, when we got in after we had our in- country briefing at La Paz, we drove from there to Cochabamba and I was assigned to a.

[Assistant] And how long was that ride?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My first initial reaction was come in. We were flying out of we came out of Lima, Peru, up over the mountains. The mountains are approximately 400 miles wide in that area. And when we come up on the Altiplano as we were landing in La Paz, you were flying over terrain that had no trees. You could see the little villages below the farms, but the rock fences made up, so they grew potatoes. There was no vegetation inside anymore. And I looked out over the vast acres of nothingness and I thought, oh, my word, and I'm going to be here for two years.

[Assistant] A little sobering thought there. So what about the project, the Peace Corps staff, the local people, when you find it? Where were you finally assigned?

[User] I was finally assigned, when we got in after we had our in- country briefing at La Paz, we drove from there to Cochabamba and I was assigned to a.

[Assistant] And how long was that ride?

[User] That was a good day's ride for a short distance, up and down and around in the mountains. We had no idea what it was going to be like before we finally came into Cochabamba valley. This was the breadbasket of Bolivia. In the Cochabamba valley you’re about eight thousand, nine hundred feet up into the mountains. The climate, you have about a 70 degree mean temperature year round and they raise anything there from vegetables to wheat, oranges, lemons. All kinds of crops. Everything was irrigated by artesian wells. A very, very, very lovely climate, and the place that I was assigned to work was called Quillacollo, the Quillacollo province, which was approximately, oh, I would say 10 or 15 miles west of Cochabamba. I worked with one of the agricultural extension agents in rural development.

[Assistant] Can you tell us specifically on that job what kinds of things you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was finally assigned, when we got in after we had our in- country briefing at La Paz, we drove from there to Cochabamba and I was assigned to a.

[Assistant] And how long was that ride?

[User] That was a good day's ride for a short distance, up and down and around in the mountains. We had no idea what it was going to be like before we finally came into Cochabamba valley. This was the breadbasket of Bolivia. In the Cochabamba valley you’re about eight thousand, nine hundred feet up into the mountains. The climate, you have about a 70 degree mean temperature year round and they raise anything there from vegetables to wheat, oranges, lemons. All kinds of crops. Everything was irrigated by artesian wells. A very, very, very lovely climate, and the place that I was assigned to work was called Quillacollo, the Quillacollo province, which was approximately, oh, I would say 10 or 15 miles west of Cochabamba. I worked with one of the agricultural extension agents in rural development.

[Assistant] Can you tell us specifically on that job what kinds of things you were doing?

[User] Well, a lot of times you would do things that weren't necessarily rural development because sometimes you would go into a town. We did a lot of 4S clubs, which are the same as 4H clubs. We were with a group called Heifer Project, they were our sponsors. And Heifer Project, what they do is they brought animals in from the United States and they were sent up to where you would give one of the qualifying people an animal, and then when they reproduced, they would give you back one or two animals, that would be passed on to somebody else. So it was an ongoing program with trying to upgrade some of the bloodlines of the sheep and the pigs and the dairy cows.

[Assistant] So where were you living? Did you live by yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a good day's ride for a short distance, up and down and around in the mountains. We had no idea what it was going to be like before we finally came into Cochabamba valley. This was the breadbasket of Bolivia. In the Cochabamba valley you’re about eight thousand, nine hundred feet up into the mountains. The climate, you have about a 70 degree mean temperature year round and they raise anything there from vegetables to wheat, oranges, lemons. All kinds of crops. Everything was irrigated by artesian wells. A very, very, very lovely climate, and the place that I was assigned to work was called Quillacollo, the Quillacollo province, which was approximately, oh, I would say 10 or 15 miles west of Cochabamba. I worked with one of the agricultural extension agents in rural development.

[Assistant] Can you tell us specifically on that job what kinds of things you were doing?

[User] Well, a lot of times you would do things that weren't necessarily rural development because sometimes you would go into a town. We did a lot of 4S clubs, which are the same as 4H clubs. We were with a group called Heifer Project, they were our sponsors. And Heifer Project, what they do is they brought animals in from the United States and they were sent up to where you would give one of the qualifying people an animal, and then when they reproduced, they would give you back one or two animals, that would be passed on to somebody else. So it was an ongoing program with trying to upgrade some of the bloodlines of the sheep and the pigs and the dairy cows.

[Assistant] So where were you living? Did you live by yourself?

[User] Todd Wolf, our coordinator, he set us up to live with families, our group in Cochabamba. I lived with the Michelle family. We lived in Cochabamba.

[Assistant] And so what was that like, living with a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, a lot of times you would do things that weren't necessarily rural development because sometimes you would go into a town. We did a lot of 4S clubs, which are the same as 4H clubs. We were with a group called Heifer Project, they were our sponsors. And Heifer Project, what they do is they brought animals in from the United States and they were sent up to where you would give one of the qualifying people an animal, and then when they reproduced, they would give you back one or two animals, that would be passed on to somebody else. So it was an ongoing program with trying to upgrade some of the bloodlines of the sheep and the pigs and the dairy cows.

[Assistant] So where were you living? Did you live by yourself?

[User] Todd Wolf, our coordinator, he set us up to live with families, our group in Cochabamba. I lived with the Michelle family. We lived in Cochabamba.

[Assistant] And so what was that like, living with a family?

[User] Well, that was a very pleasant experience because it's aimed at that particular age that I was, the family that I lived with that had a son that was about my age, that had gone to the States and that momma Michelle and papa Michelle, and my Bolivian sister. They were all just like family. It didn't take long for us to settle into a routine. The family life.

[Assistant] Do you think that that living arrangement helped?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Todd Wolf, our coordinator, he set us up to live with families, our group in Cochabamba. I lived with the Michelle family. We lived in Cochabamba.

[Assistant] And so what was that like, living with a family?

[User] Well, that was a very pleasant experience because it's aimed at that particular age that I was, the family that I lived with that had a son that was about my age, that had gone to the States and that momma Michelle and papa Michelle, and my Bolivian sister. They were all just like family. It didn't take long for us to settle into a routine. The family life.

[Assistant] Do you think that that living arrangement helped?

[User] Oh, absolutely that arrangement helped. We were living with the people and it helped you have much more understanding about their point of view, home things. A lot of times here we don't look at cultural differences or. And I think that that gave me an understanding, a better understanding, you know, of how alike all people are and the differences people have.

[Assistant] Yeah, what can you tell me a little bit about, say, a typical day or relationships that you had with any of the people there in your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a typical day, you're going to work as a started off, when you when we first got there, as we would go around and visit the different farmers. Since the agrarian reform in Bolivia, a lot of the farmers at that time have been given two hectares, which is approximately five acres. And they raised enough food to feed their family. To them, a bicycle, a pair of sunglasses and a transistor radio was the top of the world as far as status symbol was concerned. And the only thing that they cared about raising at that particular point above and beyond what they needed was what they wanted to take to market, and that's where a lot of their socialization was in the marketplace. And when you first started out going around the countryside to the people, I worked with an agricultural agent there and as we made our rounds during the day, there were times you would come by when the people were setting down to eat or something and when they first knew you, you know, you just had pleasantries and went on your way. And as they got to know you, pretty soon you'd be invited to lunch. And if there was one piece of meat in the soup you got that piece of meat, as a courtesy. And in the country, there are a lot of the food was served, you ate out of a common bowl. Which fortunately, I'm one of these people, but I have no problem with food. So I fit in very well with that, and when you knew you'd finally arrived and was accepted into the community is when you come driving down the road and they would come wave you over and invite you in to eat with them without special invitation.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] As far as job goes, you might go into a town and we would be doing something. One schoolteacher might come over and say, would you come over and give English lessons. So you would end up on the school doing English tests.

[Assistant] Kind of whatever was needed at the time.

[User] Just whatever at the time, right.

[Assistant] Can you think of any particular people that you either met or worked with that really stood out in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as job goes, you might go into a town and we would be doing something. One schoolteacher might come over and say, would you come over and give English lessons. So you would end up on the school doing English tests.

[Assistant] Kind of whatever was needed at the time.

[User] Just whatever at the time, right.

[Assistant] Can you think of any particular people that you either met or worked with that really stood out in your mind?

[User] The people that are you referring to, people that I worked with or trying to help?

[Assistant] Either worked with or trying to help. Any of those.