[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Almost every collection I have worked with--almost every collection--! consider to be important. Because the records contain so much information, that--and I have a very good memory, which helps in this business, by the way--but I consider almost everything I have worked with, every collection here, unique.

[Assistant] Does this go back to the point you made earlier, about one ofyour supervisors saying that you only work in the stuff that you want to work in, so that you pick the important series?

[User] No, he was talking about the various-

[Assistant] That was a joke, John--

[User] --about the various types ofwork that archivists may do. I might say to all of you, on camera; I never claimed to be an all-around archivist.

[Assistant] Well, I am sure you fooled a lot ofpeople in that regard, and you certainly have provided great reference service to lot.s ofpeople over a long and productive career. Thinking back over that career, what are the biggest changes you have seen, both in terms ofhow the National Archives has changed, and how things outside the National Archives have changed, that have impacted the institution?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] --about the various types ofwork that archivists may do. I might say to all of you, on camera; I never claimed to be an all-around archivist.

[Assistant] Well, I am sure you fooled a lot ofpeople in that regard, and you certainly have provided great reference service to lot.s ofpeople over a long and productive career. Thinking back over that career, what are the biggest changes you have seen, both in terms ofhow the National Archives has changed, and how things outside the National Archives have changed, that have impacted the institution?

[User] That's hard to answer. I do want to say something else, about a new subject.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] I want to get this in. We have talked a lot about the pre-World War II, we've talked about World War II, wartime agencies. We have talked about CIA. But I want to tell you that the wave ofthe future, in my view, is going to be the Cold War, the history ofthe Cold War. In recent months I have had researchers, not only from the U.S., but from Norway, Sweden, France, U.K., all interested in the Cold War. And some ofthese people are here for months on end. I am hoping that in the months and years ahead the National Archives will have adequate records available for these researchers who are writing books. As a matter offact, one American told me a couple ofdays ago that he started a history ofthe Cold War and he may spend nine or ten years on it. So I am hoping that the records will be available here for all these people who have high hopes for writing about the Cold War.

[Assistant] When you say that you hope the records will be available, there seems to be something implicit in that that maybe there won't be. What are your--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's hard to answer. I do want to say something else, about a new subject.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] I want to get this in. We have talked a lot about the pre-World War II, we've talked about World War II, wartime agencies. We have talked about CIA. But I want to tell you that the wave ofthe future, in my view, is going to be the Cold War, the history ofthe Cold War. In recent months I have had researchers, not only from the U.S., but from Norway, Sweden, France, U.K., all interested in the Cold War. And some ofthese people are here for months on end. I am hoping that in the months and years ahead the National Archives will have adequate records available for these researchers who are writing books. As a matter offact, one American told me a couple ofdays ago that he started a history ofthe Cold War and he may spend nine or ten years on it. So I am hoping that the records will be available here for all these people who have high hopes for writing about the Cold War.

[Assistant] When you say that you hope the records will be available, there seems to be something implicit in that that maybe there won't be. What are your--

[User] As we all know, some ofthese records are either withheld now, or have been re-reviewed. Some have been reclassified. That may be a problem down the road a bit.

[Assistant] I'm not sure it's all that far down the road. I think that much ofthe good ofthe declassification actions ofthe '80s and the '90s has certainly been overcome by things like the Kyl Amendment and other reclassification actions, as you put it, ofthe '90s and the 2000s, and I think it's unfortunate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want to get this in. We have talked a lot about the pre-World War II, we've talked about World War II, wartime agencies. We have talked about CIA. But I want to tell you that the wave ofthe future, in my view, is going to be the Cold War, the history ofthe Cold War. In recent months I have had researchers, not only from the U.S., but from Norway, Sweden, France, U.K., all interested in the Cold War. And some ofthese people are here for months on end. I am hoping that in the months and years ahead the National Archives will have adequate records available for these researchers who are writing books. As a matter offact, one American told me a couple ofdays ago that he started a history ofthe Cold War and he may spend nine or ten years on it. So I am hoping that the records will be available here for all these people who have high hopes for writing about the Cold War.

[Assistant] When you say that you hope the records will be available, there seems to be something implicit in that that maybe there won't be. What are your--

[User] As we all know, some ofthese records are either withheld now, or have been re-reviewed. Some have been reclassified. That may be a problem down the road a bit.

[Assistant] I'm not sure it's all that far down the road. I think that much ofthe good ofthe declassification actions ofthe '80s and the '90s has certainly been overcome by things like the Kyl Amendment and other reclassification actions, as you put it, ofthe '90s and the 2000s, and I think it's unfortunate.

[User] Some staff members have made the statement to me, and I fully agree, that the National Archives has lost control ofmany ofour records.

[Assistant] Certainly in terms of declassification, we have lost control ofa lot ofthe authority that we had fifteen or twenty years ago. Are there any other things that you would like to talk about that we haven't brought up yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As we all know, some ofthese records are either withheld now, or have been re-reviewed. Some have been reclassified. That may be a problem down the road a bit.

[Assistant] I'm not sure it's all that far down the road. I think that much ofthe good ofthe declassification actions ofthe '80s and the '90s has certainly been overcome by things like the Kyl Amendment and other reclassification actions, as you put it, ofthe '90s and the 2000s, and I think it's unfortunate.

[User] Some staff members have made the statement to me, and I fully agree, that the National Archives has lost control ofmany ofour records.

[Assistant] Certainly in terms of declassification, we have lost control ofa lot ofthe authority that we had fifteen or twenty years ago. Are there any other things that you would like to talk about that we haven't brought up yet?

[User] This is not too important, but I'd like to put it in. When I was downtown in . Archives I, I had one huge advantage that I do not have out here. I worked until 7 :00, I could go to the street, hail a cab, and be home in a few minutes. When I would come in on Saturday at Archives I, I could repeat the same procedure. But out here, it's a little different!

[Assistant] Speaking ofyou and downtown, I think it was you who told me one time, and this sort ofgoes back to one ofthe earlier questions, when I asked about major organizational reorganizations. I think it was you who said, that for most ofthe time that you were downtown, you had the same desk in the same office in 13W and everybody just sort ofreorganized around you and you just sat in the same place! And I know when I first came to the Archives in 1967 to do research I think you were sitting in pretty much the same spot where you were in the early 90s before we all moved out here!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was lucky. The gray cells worked in that area. They didn't work in the language area very well. I like to say English is my second language and I don't have a first.

[Assistant] Well, your first maybe is physics.

[User] Yes, maybe so.

[Assistant] And I'm sure that even though at the time your father may have regretted that you didn't go into his business, I'm sure he ended up later on being happy with—

[User] Yes, he was. He was. He was rather proud when it was all said and done. So I felt perhaps I came back around and brought a little cheer into his life as a result of getting into the space program.

[Assistant] It certainly would be something for a father to be proud of in his son.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was. He was. He was rather proud when it was all said and done. So I felt perhaps I came back around and brought a little cheer into his life as a result of getting into the space program.

[Assistant] It certainly would be something for a father to be proud of in his son.

[User] Yes. Yes, he was always supportive of me in everything I did.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] That was good.

[Assistant] It helps a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, he was always supportive of me in everything I did.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] That was good.

[Assistant] It helps a lot.

[User] It does. It really does. It makes all the difference in the world. If you have a wife and parents that support you, then that's all the difference in the world.

[Assistant] You said you had been interested in astronomy and in the solar system. Had you followed much of what was going on in the space program while you were studying and in school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was, all the way. Yes, my wife Julie was my girlfriend since, well, since she was in freshman year and I was a senior in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, that's wonderful.

[User] So she's been with me for a little over forty years now.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] I tell her we're still in a trial period.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully that trial period is working out pretty well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So she's been with me for a little over forty years now.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] I tell her we're still in a trial period.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully that trial period is working out pretty well.

[User] Yes, it's working fine.

[Assistant] It certainly sounds like it is.\n\n You mentioned going to Caltech being a challenge and that getting into the space program would be a challenge, but you did say that in between you worked. You mentioned Aeronatronics and you also worked for Philco Corporation for a while, if that's correct, or maybe they were connected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tell her we're still in a trial period.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully that trial period is working out pretty well.

[User] Yes, it's working fine.

[Assistant] It certainly sounds like it is.\n\n You mentioned going to Caltech being a challenge and that getting into the space program would be a challenge, but you did say that in between you worked. You mentioned Aeronatronics and you also worked for Philco Corporation for a while, if that's correct, or maybe they were connected.

[User] Yes, Philco Corporation and Aeronatronics were one and the same. It was Aeronatronic Division of the Ford-Philco Corporation. It was a year in which I was doing research in Newport Beach, California. My wife and I wanted to stay in California, and also I liked the person who was running that laboratory, and it was consistent with my background, which was in plasma physics, the study of high-temperature gases. What was different about it was that it was no longer so theoretical as what I had in graduate school. It was more applied physics, which I found interesting, but at the same time not interesting. I was kind of sitting on the fence, depending upon the type of project.

[Assistant] And so it was just the right time and place for that new challenge with the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it's working fine.

[Assistant] It certainly sounds like it is.\n\n You mentioned going to Caltech being a challenge and that getting into the space program would be a challenge, but you did say that in between you worked. You mentioned Aeronatronics and you also worked for Philco Corporation for a while, if that's correct, or maybe they were connected.

[User] Yes, Philco Corporation and Aeronatronics were one and the same. It was Aeronatronic Division of the Ford-Philco Corporation. It was a year in which I was doing research in Newport Beach, California. My wife and I wanted to stay in California, and also I liked the person who was running that laboratory, and it was consistent with my background, which was in plasma physics, the study of high-temperature gases. What was different about it was that it was no longer so theoretical as what I had in graduate school. It was more applied physics, which I found interesting, but at the same time not interesting. I was kind of sitting on the fence, depending upon the type of project.

[Assistant] And so it was just the right time and place for that new challenge with the space program.

[User] That's right. Exactly.

[Assistant] When you did apply, tell us about what that process was like, your application process, your interview, and what some of the steps along the way were, and what you thought about the whole thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That wouldn't be something that everyone would think of. You're right.

[User] Yes, I was actually a 28-year-old kid. I'd spent almost my life going through school, so I hadn't had a chance to get out in the world and grow up in any way. So I was just really a kid thrown right in the middle of that. It was the glory days of the Mercury, the Original Seven, and then the next group, the Gemini Program was still on. And all of a sudden to be brought in with that group, I felt like an imposter. It was one day you're just a kid sitting in the corner and the next day all of a sudden you are one, and you say, "Now what do I do?" And people treat you like you know everything about the space program, and you don't. So it takes a while to make that adjustment. That was probably a little challenge at the beginning.

[Assistant] Well, you had been looking for a new challenge.

[User] Well, I found it, yes.

[Assistant] It might have been a little different than what you thought it was.\n\n At any point during the process of applying and the various testing and shaking and heating and cooling and everything they'd put you through, did any of those make you stop and think, "Gee, do I really want to be doing this?" or did you just keep—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was actually a 28-year-old kid. I'd spent almost my life going through school, so I hadn't had a chance to get out in the world and grow up in any way. So I was just really a kid thrown right in the middle of that. It was the glory days of the Mercury, the Original Seven, and then the next group, the Gemini Program was still on. And all of a sudden to be brought in with that group, I felt like an imposter. It was one day you're just a kid sitting in the corner and the next day all of a sudden you are one, and you say, "Now what do I do?" And people treat you like you know everything about the space program, and you don't. So it takes a while to make that adjustment. That was probably a little challenge at the beginning.

[Assistant] Well, you had been looking for a new challenge.

[User] Well, I found it, yes.

[Assistant] It might have been a little different than what you thought it was.\n\n At any point during the process of applying and the various testing and shaking and heating and cooling and everything they'd put you through, did any of those make you stop and think, "Gee, do I really want to be doing this?" or did you just keep—

[User] No, that stuff was relatively easy. It wasn't like we were trying out to be a Navy SEAL or anything. I had been in athletics most of my life, swimming, so I was used to thinking and working in confined spaces and a number of things that they put us through just to see how you would mentally respond, and I felt very comfortable in all those things just because of my background was that and also I was highly motivated to do it. So I thought, "Jeez, is this all they're going to have us do?" I expected a lot more, actually.

[Assistant] And had they told you during the process that if you were selected, you would then go through flight training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he did play a very vital role. Unfortunately, he never got to fly until Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP], which was too bad, because he could have contributed quite a bit in Mercury and all the way through.

[Assistant] He certainly had his own unique contributions in a different way.

[User] In a different way, he sure did. He was a good leader, though, in that sense.

[Assistant] Absolutely. It certainly seems like it from what we've heard. It must have been disappointing, though, to have some of that other resistance for all of you.

[User] Yes, it was, but as I reflect back on it, there was nothing hostile in people's intent or anything. It was strictly a belief. These guys grew up in a test pilot world. We grew up in a science world. We both thought we had a lot to contribute. The test pilots were always there first, a natural extrapolation of test flight, so it was natural that that's the way it was. But it did take a while in order to break down those barriers, and it was just working alongside the guys and finally it happened.

[Assistant] Was there anything specifically, as you were going through the training initially, what were some of the areas that you first focused on? And as you began to realize that it would take working with them more closely and integrating yourself into the group, was there anything specifically that you would then work towards or work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I shouldn't have been landing out in areas which were unprepared or not approved. It was common practice, but I still shouldn't been doing it, so it was my screw-up. Good airmanship, though.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] It's the geology I was off.

[Assistant] So you should have gone back and talked to Jack Schmitt and have him give you a run-down on it.\n\n Did you get a chance to ever go back up in a helicopter after that? They always talk about getting back on the horse after—

[User] No, I have since never been able to go up and fly one. I've been in helicopters many times and someone let me take the controls, but I haven't been able to go up to fly helicopters since then, because after that they said, "Why are we spending all this money? These guys aren't going to the Moon, anyway." So a number of us who had been flying were taken off helicopter status, which I thought was unfortunate.

[Assistant] Unfortunate, but maybe it was just a—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's the geology I was off.

[Assistant] So you should have gone back and talked to Jack Schmitt and have him give you a run-down on it.\n\n Did you get a chance to ever go back up in a helicopter after that? They always talk about getting back on the horse after—

[User] No, I have since never been able to go up and fly one. I've been in helicopters many times and someone let me take the controls, but I haven't been able to go up to fly helicopters since then, because after that they said, "Why are we spending all this money? These guys aren't going to the Moon, anyway." So a number of us who had been flying were taken off helicopter status, which I thought was unfortunate.

[Assistant] Unfortunate, but maybe it was just a—

[User] Well, it was the right thing to do. I mean, I just precipitated a change that was already going to take place.

[Assistant] Around this time also you were serving on the support crew and as the capcom for Apollo 12. Is that correct? Was that the same time frame?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I have since never been able to go up and fly one. I've been in helicopters many times and someone let me take the controls, but I haven't been able to go up to fly helicopters since then, because after that they said, "Why are we spending all this money? These guys aren't going to the Moon, anyway." So a number of us who had been flying were taken off helicopter status, which I thought was unfortunate.

[Assistant] Unfortunate, but maybe it was just a—

[User] Well, it was the right thing to do. I mean, I just precipitated a change that was already going to take place.

[Assistant] Around this time also you were serving on the support crew and as the capcom for Apollo 12. Is that correct? Was that the same time frame?

[User] That's right. That's right.

[Assistant] What are the duties of a support crew member, and what did you even think of it when you got the assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I wasn't there. Jerry [Gerald P.] Carr had the launch. I was primarily on when they were out on the EVAs. So as soon as they started getting ready for the EVAs, then, because I had worked with them on developing all those procedures, I was the capcom. Some of those EVAs were five and a half, six, seven hours.

[Assistant] Did you stay in there for the whole shift?

[User] Oh, yes, I got a chance to do that, and that was just fascinating. It was tough to believe, actually, when you were sitting there and you were talking to the guys you were normally used to talking to over in some other part of the building or somewhere out in the desert, and all of a sudden you realized that they're really up there on the Moon, and the communications there was better than they usually were in our training exercises. So it was tough to realize that these guys were really up there, other than the two-second delay, which made it difficult to talk.

[Assistant] Was there a point at all during the mission where you remember thinking that and reflecting on the fact that, "Jeez, these guys are up there doing it"?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, that went through my mind several times, because all of a sudden the training exercises we had gone through and the lunar traverses which we had practiced, this time, even though we had trained with a two-second delay in the communications, just knowing that they were still up there, it was real difficult. If I'd been on the flight, perhaps I wouldn't have had as much time to reflect. But since I was on the ground, you got a little more time to think about it than you would if you were actually on the scene.

[Assistant] Had there been points previous to this, during other missions that you might not have been directly involved with, perhaps Apollo 11, perhaps Apollo 8, even, where you thought about the impact of what this whole program was having on the world at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, and, unfortunately, politicians via subcommittees love to get in and micromanage. As opposed to just giving a top-level requirement, we get the guys in who are frustrated engineers. You know, I've seen them get in and start trying to micromanage how you build a space station. Shouldn't be done, shouldn't be done. Should be top-level management. You select the goals you want and keep them constant. Get good people and give it the right financing, hold them to various milestones and then just get out of their way. And if you look at the way the program has evolved because of the federal bureaucracy, every one of those things has been violated. We've shifted goals. We have a tough time retaining good people. We bring a lot in, but there's also an awful lot who leave who should not.\n\n We have micromanagement of programs as opposed to just giving top-level requirements. And then when things don't go right, the outside world says, "Well, obviously we got to step in and fix things," which stirs the pot in the wrong direction again. So we've had a lot of difficulty since the Apollo era in getting things accomplished in a cost-effective and efficient way, and a lot of it is because there's too much political structure, too much help.

[Assistant] And certainly the space program, as you've mentioned, is so much in the public eye that even though it may only be the small percentage of the national budget that—

[User] It's a political football.

[Assistant] It is.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You've mentioned a little bit back to the Vietnam War and some of the unrest that was going on. How aware were all of you at NASA of what was going on in the rest of the country and the rest of the world? Did it impact your jobs much, or were you very focused on the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a political football.

[Assistant] It is.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You've mentioned a little bit back to the Vietnam War and some of the unrest that was going on. How aware were all of you at NASA of what was going on in the rest of the country and the rest of the world? Did it impact your jobs much, or were you very focused on the program?

[User] We were rather naive, I think, about the political impact of what was happening and how it would affect the space program, but I do remember thinking about some of the people who I had gone to flight school with and a lot of the people who my friends knew who were over in Vietnam and risking their lives every day and some of the not coming back. And then people were trying to glorify what was taking place in the space program, and I thought somehow this doesn't fit. It's not right, because here we were not getting shot at and really just enjoying life and being very lucky to be there, and we were getting praised for doing it, whereas the other guys were out there defending our country and taking the risk every day and some of them not coming back, and they got the derision of the nation heaped on them because all they were doing was standing behind their flag and doing what their commander-in-chief told them. I thought that was extremely unfair. I still do. It was a wrong thing to do. Our nation, we should’a been in or out. We never should have done that to our military.

[Assistant] Absolutely not, because, as you said, they were doing what they were told to do, what they were asked to do, and they were doing it to the best of their ability.\n\n The space program at least did give something positive for the country to reflect on. I think even someone after Apollo 8 had sent back a telegram saying, "You saved 1968," that it was something good for people to be able to focus on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know. I could have written anything, and maybe because there were three scientists and three seats, it was that simple. Probably was. I didn't know it at the time.

[Assistant] Well, certainly your research in preparing for it gave you a lot, when you were working on your mission, a lot to build off of and run with in completing all of your experiments and procedures and such.

[User] Right. It really helped me. At least I felt I was fully contributing then. I would have felt probably a little as though I had missed an opportunity if I had not really fully applied myself, because I knew I could, and taken advantage of the opportunity in space flight to really do good science. I figure that's why I was there. I'd gone through Caltech, and if I was going to do anything good, it had to be in that area.

[Assistant] As the Skylab Program was coming more fully up to speed and things were being formalized, what role, before you were assigned to a mission, did you have? Were you just continuing on, on work like this and on studying the solar physics? Were you involved then with the ATM [Apollo Telescope Mount] work early on?

[User] Yes, I was involved in the ATM early on because of my background in solar physics, but then I got involved in the film retrieval from ATM, which was done by EVAs, space walks. So then I got into the space walk world, which was an awful lot of fun. I really enjoyed that, and then also got into the design of the laboratory, but only in a review basis for what other guys were doing. My specialty was the ATM. So the space walk activities and the procedures for running the equipment turned out to fall on me next, along with Owen Garriott, who did quite a bit of that, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned the EVAs and the film retrieval and you had come in during some of the Gemini work, and they obviously had a lot of problems with EVA. Did you build on a lot of their experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was very natural, because I had an athletic background and also the swimming. I was a lifeguard at one time. So it all seemed to fit. It just all fell together.

[Assistant] Well, that's good. Good connection there.\n\n Was the Skylab design then pretty well in place as you were working on these, or were there any large changes that came across?

[User] Oh, we had an awful lot of changes. We started out, we were going to have a wet workshop, it was called. The ATM initially was going to be flown just in place of the Apollo module on a command service module [CSM]. So it was going to be just independent. And then there were some other experiments which people wanted to fly and finally they said, "Why don't we get this thing all together and make a space station out of it." And so that's when the Apollo Extension System came along, and then finally Apollo Applications with the integrated vehicle.\n\n It started out that we were going to have a wet workshop. In other words, we were going to launch and then use the upper stage for our space station, part of our space station. But it turned out that that was just too complex. We found it was much more cost-effective as well as operationally effective to just go design a thing the way you wanted it and put it on the ground and then launch it that way.

[Assistant] So you were involved then in that—

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, all the way through that, yes. It was a natural evolution, and we look back on it now and we made an awful lot of decisions that really influenced how things came out, but they all seemed like natural steps at the time.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Apollo Telescope Mount and that it was actually originally planned to be launched with the command module and to do just some activities on orbit then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we had an awful lot of changes. We started out, we were going to have a wet workshop, it was called. The ATM initially was going to be flown just in place of the Apollo module on a command service module [CSM]. So it was going to be just independent. And then there were some other experiments which people wanted to fly and finally they said, "Why don't we get this thing all together and make a space station out of it." And so that's when the Apollo Extension System came along, and then finally Apollo Applications with the integrated vehicle.\n\n It started out that we were going to have a wet workshop. In other words, we were going to launch and then use the upper stage for our space station, part of our space station. But it turned out that that was just too complex. We found it was much more cost-effective as well as operationally effective to just go design a thing the way you wanted it and put it on the ground and then launch it that way.

[Assistant] So you were involved then in that—

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, all the way through that, yes. It was a natural evolution, and we look back on it now and we made an awful lot of decisions that really influenced how things came out, but they all seemed like natural steps at the time.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Apollo Telescope Mount and that it was actually originally planned to be launched with the command module and to do just some activities on orbit then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For a short time frame, and that's how actually it guided some of the layouts of the control panels and boards and such. Was there much modification to the ATM once it was decided to go with this fuller-scale workshop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, all the way through that, yes. It was a natural evolution, and we look back on it now and we made an awful lot of decisions that really influenced how things came out, but they all seemed like natural steps at the time.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Apollo Telescope Mount and that it was actually originally planned to be launched with the command module and to do just some activities on orbit then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For a short time frame, and that's how actually it guided some of the layouts of the control panels and boards and such. Was there much modification to the ATM once it was decided to go with this fuller-scale workshop?

[User] Yes, I think the instruments were laid out differently. They had more weight and more structure that they could work with. The panel was changed somewhat, but it was undergoing a natural evolution anyway. We had a little more space in which to fit it.\n\n Initially the layout of that panel which you controlled it with—that requires a little explanation. With eight different instruments up there, and they all had many different controls and displays that you would see pictures of the sun and being able to take pictures in either a very narrow slice of the sun or the total sun and various X-rays, you always had choices of space, where to take the picture, where it pointed, the wavelength, and then how long you exposed it, and how rapidly. So there were an awful lot of decisions to be made, and that was reflecting the complexity of the control panel. So we found ways to make that as simple as we possibly could and as logical as we possible could, but it took a little doing. So that in itself was a major study, but it worked out well.

[Assistant] Certainly seems to have. How did the idea for the ATM come about in the first place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, much longer. We made observations over much longer periods than we had originally planned. Twenty-eight, fifty-six, and then eighty-four days, with some observations in between. So maybe we got really a rich harvest of data.

[Assistant] So they were able to do some automated observations, then, when you weren't there? Is that what you mean by in between?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Yes. Some. Not much, but some.

[Assistant] That's certainly good for a continuity—\n\n As Skylab was being finalized, as its design was being finalized, the ATM was coming along, and the other experiments began to be worked into the program, Earth observations and medical and many of the others, how did planning for that all come together? I think your crewmates have mentioned the Joint Operating Procedures that were eventually developed to make it all work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you're going to always be able to take hand-held photography, but you need good instruments up there to do it with, as I was suggesting, infrared, ultraviolet, being able to look at selected wavelengths, and process the data differently than you'd normally do with just a hand-held camera. So that's going to require some dedicated instruments, and that's going to have change a few minds, I think, before that happens, unfortunately, but I think when you look down and you see the diversity of things that you can from orbit—you can spot ocean currents, cold-water upwelling, and some of the more obvious things, hurricanes, and fault zones, and so forth—often you can get a lot of specialized data that you wouldn't otherwise if you were just pointing straight down and shooting by the clock.

[Assistant] Yes, Earth observations would certainly seem like a natural, very important application of space operations.

[User] Yes, you'd think so, and so far most of it's been hand-held photography, other than, of course, the unmanned stuff, which is all valuable and they've done a great job there, but there are some very specialized things that do happen on the face of the Earth that you're going to miss if you don't have someone there to see it, detect it, and figure out how to get data on it.

[Assistant] It will be interesting to see the evolution here now once we have more—

[User] It'll happen in the long term. It'll happen. So eventually it will happen. Whether it takes ten years, fifty years, I don't know, but like all good ideas, you can't keep them down forever. It'll happen.

[Assistant] Hopefully before too long. Hopefully it won't take fifty years.\n\n Looking at this and the solar observations, the Earth observations, the medical, and knowing to look for these things, being able to spot things with ocean currents or volcanoes going off and so forth, what sort of scientific training in these different areas did you all receive as a crew that was either generalized or then more specific?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Unfortunately, even though we were up there for 84 days, we were kept pretty busy, so we didn't have a great deal of time to look out the window as much as we liked.

[Assistant] I'm sure that's something that would never grow old.

[User] No, it really doesn't. I've often thought if there was some way I could get people to experience what we experienced, it would be to have their eyes in orbit and being able to see that view. If you're down here and you take a picture of a rose garden, it's not quite the same as being there, and the same is true of observing Earth.

[Assistant] Yes, there's no way to recreate that experience unless you—

[User] Not really. Some of these IMAX films come close, but it's still not quite the same.

[Assistant] It's still that awareness. Well, for one thing, you can still feel the gravity while you're watching the IMAX.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it really doesn't. I've often thought if there was some way I could get people to experience what we experienced, it would be to have their eyes in orbit and being able to see that view. If you're down here and you take a picture of a rose garden, it's not quite the same as being there, and the same is true of observing Earth.

[Assistant] Yes, there's no way to recreate that experience unless you—

[User] Not really. Some of these IMAX films come close, but it's still not quite the same.

[Assistant] It's still that awareness. Well, for one thing, you can still feel the gravity while you're watching the IMAX.

[User] That's right, yes. You're not floating by a window.

[Assistant] Well, maybe some day more people will be able to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. Some of these IMAX films come close, but it's still not quite the same.

[Assistant] It's still that awareness. Well, for one thing, you can still feel the gravity while you're watching the IMAX.

[User] That's right, yes. You're not floating by a window.

[Assistant] Well, maybe some day more people will be able to—

[User] Oh, yes. It will.

[Assistant] As you were going along and training for Skylab, at what point were you officially assigned to the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, yes. You're not floating by a window.

[Assistant] Well, maybe some day more people will be able to—

[User] Oh, yes. It will.

[Assistant] As you were going along and training for Skylab, at what point were you officially assigned to the crew?

[User] Gee, I'm trying to think. I think it was about as year and a half or so before the flight. I'm not positive. About a year and a half before. We all knew we were pretty much lined up because of the way the work was shaping, and there were three of us who were working on the program: Owen Garriott and Joe Kerwin and myself. There were three missions, and it was logical to spread the three of us across them. We just didn't know which was going to go where. Does Joe Kerwin get the mission where the person's up there the longest because that's where you learn the most about medical aspects of long-duration space flight? So maybe Joe was going to go on the last flight? Or do you put him on the first one where he's going to be up there for four weeks and there might be problems encountered that you ought to have someone there to understand what they are? And that's ultimately what they did do. And then Owen was more senior to me, or there was some other reason for Owen going second, and I went third. There was a time there where I thought, well, maybe I got the short straw because Skylab might not hold together for that long. But then when it did hold together that long and we ended up going from 56 to 84 days, I came out and really got the good deal. Again, the right place at the right time.

[Assistant] That's good. [Tape interruption]\n\n We were just talking about you getting your Skylab assignment and talking some how you, Joe Kerwin, and Owen Garriott were eventually divided up and how it worked out pretty well for you, getting the long mission. When you got your crew assignment, yours was the first rookie crew to go up since the Gemini Program. Did you think anything about that at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they worked, and we stayed. It had all the minerals and calories and so forth that you needed. So it worked well, and I'm being a little facetious about it, but it worked. It's not an ideal way to make it work, but it did work.

[Assistant] And I guess for the chance that you had then to be able to have such a unique mission, it balanced out in the end.

[User] It balanced out, yes. We were running out of other expendables, so we couldn't have stayed up there much longer.

[Assistant] There also was in the lead-up to knowing whether you were even going to, first, be able to go and then to be able as stay as long, during the second mission they had some problems on the command module and even debated at one point sending up a rescue on that. From some of my research I found that it was actually going to be members from your back-up crew that would fly that rescue if that had needed to happen.

[User] That's right, yes. Yes, the people who were the back-up crews for each of us were, if we weren't going to fly, they would have flown on the flight, but they also were going to fly the rescue mission. So they were training for that rescue mission at all times for each of the three flights. If we had a problem, for example, and they had to rescue us, they would have used the command and service module that later was used for the Apollo-Soyuz. So it was always for the rescue mission you would use the next vehicle coming up. It turned out that they didn't need to do that. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. We were so busy in training. It's one of those things you get a briefing on at the end of the day for five minutes and then get on with your work of training for what you've planned to be your mission.

[Assistant] That's certainly an interesting, well, basically a new concept for the program as a whole, being able to go up and rescue someone. None of the earlier programs would that really have been possible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the previous crew had left three dummies in various positions on Skylab, and we kind of laughed about it and thought it was kind of funny. When you opened up the orbital workshop, it was like going into a dark cave, just because it was all dark.\n\n It hadn't been lived in for a little while, and we had to go in there and get the lighting and get all that up. So we saw those things and we were really busy trying to get going, and we said, "We don't have time to take them down now." And it was kind of eerie, because you'd see things going over your shoulder. It's like a mannequin next door to you. Your mind tells you it's a person, so it was kind of eerie for a little while, but we liked the joke.

[Assistant] That's good. Again, that shows some of that spirit between everyone in the corps.

[User] Yes. Yes, it was good. I was glad they did that.

[Assistant] Coming up on Skylab, Bill Pogue became ill, actually, which surprised a lot of people because he had been one of the ones, I think you called him "Old Iron Ears."

[User] "Iron Ears," yes. You could never make him sick on the ground. You'd put him in a rotating chair and he'd never get sick. He used to fly for the Thunderbirds, so you figure if there's anybody going to get sick, it'd be Jerry or I, not Bill, which showed that we didn't really understand the problem.

[Assistant] I think that's something probably they're even still working on to some extent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, it was good. I was glad they did that.

[Assistant] Coming up on Skylab, Bill Pogue became ill, actually, which surprised a lot of people because he had been one of the ones, I think you called him "Old Iron Ears."

[User] "Iron Ears," yes. You could never make him sick on the ground. You'd put him in a rotating chair and he'd never get sick. He used to fly for the Thunderbirds, so you figure if there's anybody going to get sick, it'd be Jerry or I, not Bill, which showed that we didn't really understand the problem.

[Assistant] I think that's something probably they're even still working on to some extent.

[User] They are. They've gotten some better medications now, but they still don't fully understand the problem.

[Assistant] And as he became ill, that may have been the beginning of some of the misunderstanding, I guess, between you and—.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You need to establish those things that have to done by ephemerous-related or time-related, because at the point you are over the ground or some other time-related and let that form a backbone, but then you put a shopping list together of all the other things that need doing, maybe with some prioritization, and let the person there use his own best judgment how he gets it done and when he gets it done. And you can bet that they're going to charge full bore and get some satisfactions out of it, as opposed to always trying to figure out how far they are behind the time line.

[Assistant] Got to take advantage of having the person there and having that human element. Robots can do that regimen and schedule.

[User] Yes, I think you really need that. The only way you convince people is give them a schedule down here on the ground and make them operate that way for a couple of days. See how effective you are.

[Assistant] I know it'd be hard for me.

[User] I don't care how well it's thought out. The real world just doesn't operate that way.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, you did have a chance to talk with mission control eventually, and even it was everyone hearing it, you were able to work it out, and you'd come to a really good understanding, from what the reports say.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, people just dreamed it up out of—taken a few facts and then looked at newspaper reports, which were, as you know, rather creative at the time—it made good headlines—and written up. And so they've never gotten a true picture of it. And Cooper, who wrote the book, never talked to us.

[Assistant] Well, that's very unfortunate.

[User] Yes, I thought it was unprofessional. The guy should have at least talked to us. He could write what he wants, but he ought to have at least heard what the two sides were. He took Channel B tapes, which is our debriefings of what went on, and then inferred from that what was going on. Well, as you can see, you hit a nerve.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, it has, as you said, persisted through the years.

[User] Yes, it has. Granted, we screwed up on a few occasions, but it was a total misunderstanding of what was really going on in how to operate a space station. And I just hope out of some those experiences that the current space station is going to be able to benefit. My belief is that it's a whole new world of people and lessons learned. I think the one lesson you learn from history is that no one pays attention to the lessons learned. So I'm afraid we're going to learn that one all over again.

[Assistant] Well, we'll hope that with a project like ours, maybe there'll be a chance to have some of the those lessons learned, somebody listen to them and apply them, hopefully, because it certainly is very valuable to know and to build off of your experience so no one else has to. And that'll just make things more efficient in the long run and run better.\n\n But you did get everything running well, and you did get communications going well with the ground, and by the end of the mission, as you said, you accomplished a great deal of science and got everything done that had been intended. Tell us about some of the things that you were doing there. We've talked a little bit about the [Apollo] Telescope Mount. Was there a typical day for you once you got through this period of trying to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Oh, yes, very much so. We're going to Mars. Do you want a rotating space station so you have gravity, so you can make sure that you have healthy bones, not only when you get to Mars, but also when you come back? Yes, there's a lot to be learned there.

[Assistant] So you would participate in these experiments every day then?

[User] Every day you do the getting ready and then you have four types of experiments going. Either it was the ATM—we each took a couple of passes, orbits. I usually got more than the others. Then there was the medical experiments we all had to do, either be a subject or an operator. Earth Resources Experiment Package, when we went to Z-local-vertical, so we had to study the Earth. Or then there was a whole host of corollary experiments, medical.\n\n The high school experiments, too, those were interesting. High school students proposed things to do, like what happens to a spider in flight, or in zero gravity. It took a little while, but eventually it built a web, but it was pretty confused there at the beginning. Fish, what do they do? So we had a little container of fish. Actually, the second flight was the one that did the most for that. They swim around in little circles, like an aviator's outside loops, because they don't have gravity. Yes, there was a whole host of little things like that that were interesting, and other corollary experiments.\n\n Then there was the hand-held photography. Aside from the ATM, that's what I enjoyed the most. The Earth is so fascinating. There's something different coming over the horizon all the time, and the more you look at it, the more you see.

[Assistant] When you did have free time, did you spend a lot of time looking out—

[User] Oh, yes. Looking out the window, yes. Yes, we all did.

[Assistant] It certainly was only something you were going to be able to do for so long.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Looking out the window, yes. Yes, we all did.

[Assistant] It certainly was only something you were going to be able to do for so long.

[User] That's right, unfortunately. At the same time, we did have a little time to just think about that aspect of we were going to do it for so long. And it seemed like a very natural place to be, to be up orbiting Earth. Now, maybe you can't picture it, but after you've worked for it for such a long period and you finally do it and you're up there for a couple of months, you being to think of it as a very natural phase. It's like going camping, where the first couple of days takes a little getting used to, and after a couple of weeks you feel at home, and after maybe a month or so, it's just another phase of your life. And that's what it was for us. You think eventually you're going to have hundreds of people up here doing the same thing, thousands. So we were just glad to be one of the first.

[Assistant] A testament to the human adaptability, I guess.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You certainly were very fortunate to have that opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, unfortunately. At the same time, we did have a little time to just think about that aspect of we were going to do it for so long. And it seemed like a very natural place to be, to be up orbiting Earth. Now, maybe you can't picture it, but after you've worked for it for such a long period and you finally do it and you're up there for a couple of months, you being to think of it as a very natural phase. It's like going camping, where the first couple of days takes a little getting used to, and after a couple of weeks you feel at home, and after maybe a month or so, it's just another phase of your life. And that's what it was for us. You think eventually you're going to have hundreds of people up here doing the same thing, thousands. So we were just glad to be one of the first.

[Assistant] A testament to the human adaptability, I guess.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You certainly were very fortunate to have that opportunity.

[User] Oh, yes, very much so.

[Assistant] During the mission, you also had a chance to go out on EVA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You certainly were very fortunate to have that opportunity.

[User] Oh, yes, very much so.

[Assistant] During the mission, you also had a chance to go out on EVA.

[User] Oh, yes, the great outdoors. Loved it.

[Assistant] That must have truly been a unique experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I've tried to give you that analogy, but that's the best analogy I could give you.

[Assistant] That's a very good analogy, a very good analogy. I can imagine being held out, and I guess it is that sense of not being enclosed anymore.

[User] You're not enclosed. You're not part of anything any longer. In an airplane you feel part of; you're inside the airplane. But you were hanging from the bottom of the airplane you might feel different about that height.

[Assistant] Sure. I guess it's more natural being inside and enclosed and you know that support's there.

[User] You get that feeling also, I've since gone skydiving with my sons, and you get that feeling when you step out the door sometimes. That first step is a long way down.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's hard for you to make your body make that first step.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're not enclosed. You're not part of anything any longer. In an airplane you feel part of; you're inside the airplane. But you were hanging from the bottom of the airplane you might feel different about that height.

[Assistant] Sure. I guess it's more natural being inside and enclosed and you know that support's there.

[User] You get that feeling also, I've since gone skydiving with my sons, and you get that feeling when you step out the door sometimes. That first step is a long way down.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's hard for you to make your body make that first step.

[User] That's right. You get that same feeling with an EVA when you move away from the spacecraft. That's why really I think Bruce McCandless [II] and all those guys who have flown the MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit], that must have been a great experience. I don't know to this day whether they felt that, with this thing on their back, it felt as though they were driving a little sports car out there or whether they felt like we did, just you and the ground.

[Assistant] It's probably pretty similar, I would imagine, since there was nothing enclosing—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You get that feeling also, I've since gone skydiving with my sons, and you get that feeling when you step out the door sometimes. That first step is a long way down.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's hard for you to make your body make that first step.

[User] That's right. You get that same feeling with an EVA when you move away from the spacecraft. That's why really I think Bruce McCandless [II] and all those guys who have flown the MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit], that must have been a great experience. I don't know to this day whether they felt that, with this thing on their back, it felt as though they were driving a little sports car out there or whether they felt like we did, just you and the ground.

[Assistant] It's probably pretty similar, I would imagine, since there was nothing enclosing—

[User] I think it'd have to be. Yes, it's just getting away to where you don't feel part of the structure around you.

[Assistant] And even from Bruce McCandless being able to see that structure off in the distance looking back toward the Shuttle and truly recognizing that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. You get that same feeling with an EVA when you move away from the spacecraft. That's why really I think Bruce McCandless [II] and all those guys who have flown the MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit], that must have been a great experience. I don't know to this day whether they felt that, with this thing on their back, it felt as though they were driving a little sports car out there or whether they felt like we did, just you and the ground.

[Assistant] It's probably pretty similar, I would imagine, since there was nothing enclosing—

[User] I think it'd have to be. Yes, it's just getting away to where you don't feel part of the structure around you.

[Assistant] And even from Bruce McCandless being able to see that structure off in the distance looking back toward the Shuttle and truly recognizing that—

[User] You know, we were talking about that feeling. He didn't realize that when we were up there how stable that space station was and how much of it felt like a home in the sky until we finally left it and got into the command module. And as soon as we undocked from the command module, all of a sudden we're in this little sporty vehicle that we really maneuver, and I thought, "Hey, we're flying again." And all this time, of course, we'd been flying. It was spaceflight all the time, but all of a sudden we're in this little sports car. It's like going out to your car, out of your house and going into your garage and getting into a sports car and you get back on the road again. Well, that's what we felt when we left it. And I thought, "Gee, that's great." That space station felt so stable. It felt so much like a home in the sky that we felt completely at home there, very comfortable.

[Assistant] That's good. That's really good. Hopefully that perception will continue for [International] Space Station, and that'll help—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it'd have to be. Yes, it's just getting away to where you don't feel part of the structure around you.

[Assistant] And even from Bruce McCandless being able to see that structure off in the distance looking back toward the Shuttle and truly recognizing that—

[User] You know, we were talking about that feeling. He didn't realize that when we were up there how stable that space station was and how much of it felt like a home in the sky until we finally left it and got into the command module. And as soon as we undocked from the command module, all of a sudden we're in this little sporty vehicle that we really maneuver, and I thought, "Hey, we're flying again." And all this time, of course, we'd been flying. It was spaceflight all the time, but all of a sudden we're in this little sports car. It's like going out to your car, out of your house and going into your garage and getting into a sports car and you get back on the road again. Well, that's what we felt when we left it. And I thought, "Gee, that's great." That space station felt so stable. It felt so much like a home in the sky that we felt completely at home there, very comfortable.

[Assistant] That's good. That's really good. Hopefully that perception will continue for [International] Space Station, and that'll help—

[User] Oh, I'm sure it will and even much more so because this thing is so large and massive. I'm sure people will have that feeling. I'm sure they did with Mir, too.

[Assistant] Yes, that's so big you could not see somebody for the whole day, from what we've heard. Very different experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I'm sure it will and even much more so because this thing is so large and massive. I'm sure people will have that feeling. I'm sure they did with Mir, too.

[Assistant] Yes, that's so big you could not see somebody for the whole day, from what we've heard. Very different experience.

[User] Yes. Well, actually they lost me for one morning.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, I mean, the Skylab had several different compartments, and I was in the orbital workshop and I was trying to find some of the old procedures that the previous crew had used for something. So I was behind the freezers where they had put all that data. Jerry and Bill were looking for me, and they just glanced in the orbital workshop and didn't see me. They looked out and said, "Hey, the command module's still here. He hasn't left. So where is he? The door's not open." So I finally meandered up and they said, "Where have you been?" So, it could happen.

[Assistant] That's pretty good. That's certainly not something you would expect, to lose a fellow crew member.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, actually they lost me for one morning.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, I mean, the Skylab had several different compartments, and I was in the orbital workshop and I was trying to find some of the old procedures that the previous crew had used for something. So I was behind the freezers where they had put all that data. Jerry and Bill were looking for me, and they just glanced in the orbital workshop and didn't see me. They looked out and said, "Hey, the command module's still here. He hasn't left. So where is he? The door's not open." So I finally meandered up and they said, "Where have you been?" So, it could happen.

[Assistant] That's pretty good. That's certainly not something you would expect, to lose a fellow crew member.

[User] Yes, it was a pretty large area, volume, that we had in there.

[Assistant] And you were able to enjoy that volume to some extent with being able to do various acrobatic-type—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I mean, the Skylab had several different compartments, and I was in the orbital workshop and I was trying to find some of the old procedures that the previous crew had used for something. So I was behind the freezers where they had put all that data. Jerry and Bill were looking for me, and they just glanced in the orbital workshop and didn't see me. They looked out and said, "Hey, the command module's still here. He hasn't left. So where is he? The door's not open." So I finally meandered up and they said, "Where have you been?" So, it could happen.

[Assistant] That's pretty good. That's certainly not something you would expect, to lose a fellow crew member.

[User] Yes, it was a pretty large area, volume, that we had in there.

[Assistant] And you were able to enjoy that volume to some extent with being able to do various acrobatic-type—

[User] Yes, that was enjoyable.

[Assistant] Looking back over your mission, was there any one point that was your—well, I guess, looking out at the Earth, was that your favorite part of everything that went into it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a pretty large area, volume, that we had in there.

[Assistant] And you were able to enjoy that volume to some extent with being able to do various acrobatic-type—

[User] Yes, that was enjoyable.

[Assistant] Looking back over your mission, was there any one point that was your—well, I guess, looking out at the Earth, was that your favorite part of everything that went into it?

[User] Yes, when I look back on it, there are several things. One is this totally integrated enjoyment of looking back at the Earth and realizing that you're just on the forefront of something which is going to grow and become much larger in the future. Another was the space walks, for what we accomplished as well as just working in that environment. And the last was some of the good science that was done and being able to use your human ingenuity, not to be a button-pusher, but to exert some human judgment into how you did the experiments and then improve the quality of what was brought back. So all those things, those were real satisfying.

[Assistant] Certainly something to be proud of and to be glad to be a part of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was enjoyable.

[Assistant] Looking back over your mission, was there any one point that was your—well, I guess, looking out at the Earth, was that your favorite part of everything that went into it?

[User] Yes, when I look back on it, there are several things. One is this totally integrated enjoyment of looking back at the Earth and realizing that you're just on the forefront of something which is going to grow and become much larger in the future. Another was the space walks, for what we accomplished as well as just working in that environment. And the last was some of the good science that was done and being able to use your human ingenuity, not to be a button-pusher, but to exert some human judgment into how you did the experiments and then improve the quality of what was brought back. So all those things, those were real satisfying.

[Assistant] Certainly something to be proud of and to be glad to be a part of.

[User] Yes, just glad to be a part of it. I today just realize how lucky I was to be in the right spot at the right time.

[Assistant] As your mission came to a close, this was one of the first missions since early on with some of the early Gemini missions that hadn't been covered extensively by the media. In fact, they didn't even cover the return. Did you have any thoughts on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it is. You go out and you go around the next bend, you've got to see what's there. You go over the next mountain, you've got to see what's there. You go across the ocean, and finally into the air, and now into space, and you realize, look out how many stars are out there. Terence Dickinson wrote a book, excellent book, called The Universe and Beyond, and in there he cites from a probability standpoint a number of star systems that have planets out there, numbers like all the grains of sand on the beaches of the whole world. So, you know, to think it in those numbers, you say, "We're not unique." There's other forms of life out there, and it's only a question of time and distance, and eventually we will find other life or they will find us. I'm not UFO'er or anything, but the odds are so overwhelming. And let's get on with it and let's not spend much of our gross national product on it, but let's get serious about it. Let's get on with it.

[Assistant] It's an infinite universe. There's so much possibility out there.

[User] Yes, it really is, and we got the stepping stones called planets, and, you know, let's move on from there.

[Assistant] And we are on the way, slowly, but we are on the way.

[User] We are. At least we're still moving.

[Assistant] Shortly after coming back from Skylab, you chose to move on from NASA, in fact, to be able to work some more of the information that you had been able to bring back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it really is, and we got the stepping stones called planets, and, you know, let's move on from there.

[Assistant] And we are on the way, slowly, but we are on the way.

[User] We are. At least we're still moving.

[Assistant] Shortly after coming back from Skylab, you chose to move on from NASA, in fact, to be able to work some more of the information that you had been able to bring back.

[User] That's right. There was not much happening when I came back. So I said, "Well, why don't I go work on some of the Skylab data for a while," which I did.

[Assistant] That must have been an interesting time period for you to have first been on the Skylab doing that work and then being able to come back and spend so much time at it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are. At least we're still moving.

[Assistant] Shortly after coming back from Skylab, you chose to move on from NASA, in fact, to be able to work some more of the information that you had been able to bring back.

[User] That's right. There was not much happening when I came back. So I said, "Well, why don't I go work on some of the Skylab data for a while," which I did.

[Assistant] That must have been an interesting time period for you to have first been on the Skylab doing that work and then being able to come back and spend so much time at it.

[User] It was. That was gratifying, to take it from one end to the other.

[Assistant] Not many astronauts even had that opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. There was not much happening when I came back. So I said, "Well, why don't I go work on some of the Skylab data for a while," which I did.

[Assistant] That must have been an interesting time period for you to have first been on the Skylab doing that work and then being able to come back and spend so much time at it.

[User] It was. That was gratifying, to take it from one end to the other.

[Assistant] Not many astronauts even had that opportunity.

[User] That's right. Right.

[Assistant] Before you came back to NASA, you worked with a group in Germany. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Actually, I was in charge of the new candidates that came in, all of them across the board.

[Assistant] What was that like in comparison to your days when you had been going through the training initially?

[User] Oh, I think it was good because I was sensitive to what we had experienced, especially as scientists coming in, and I knew anybody coming in the program is somewhat intimidated when they come in the front door, and yet they're all real fast burners and really capable people. So your job is to make them feel comfortable and get them going doing something productive, because if you don't, if you give them just busy work, they'll see through that in a second. So make them feel comfortable and give them something worthwhile to do and make sure that their training is efficient. And that was satisfying. I enjoyed doing that because I know how we were viewed when we came in and what happened to us, and I said these guys shouldn't see the same thing.

[Assistant] Certainly the views on scientists and on science in general for the space program have changed since the beginning as the goals and as the program has grown. Science now has a much higher emphasis in the program than it did before.

[User] Oh, yes, now you regard the breakdown of the classes—what, 46 or so, where 40% are pilots, 60% are mission specialists of one kind or another. People do realize that the objective of this whole thing is to accomplish things in orbit, many of them scientific, and you ought to have the right people up there. We have still yet to learn the lesson of how to make it most productive, though. But that'll come with time. That will come.

[Assistant] Hopefully now we will have lots of time to almost experiment with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, now you regard the breakdown of the classes—what, 46 or so, where 40% are pilots, 60% are mission specialists of one kind or another. People do realize that the objective of this whole thing is to accomplish things in orbit, many of them scientific, and you ought to have the right people up there. We have still yet to learn the lesson of how to make it most productive, though. But that'll come with time. That will come.

[Assistant] Hopefully now we will have lots of time to almost experiment with that.

[User] Well, we saw the natural progression in Skylab. Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, much to his credit, said toward the end of our flight, "Just give them a couple of days off. Let them do whatever they want." And it was great. I took a Sunday off and I worked the ATM figuring out what I needed to do and then coordinated with the guys on the ground and went off and did it, and it was one of the most satisfying experiences up there, because it was no longer just trying to work to see how close you could get to where you were supposed to be and not be behind, but you really get ahead of it. It was enjoyable.

[Assistant] You got to flex your mind as well as just trying to keep up with things.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Well, when you did move on from NASA on that last stage as Shuttle was coming into view and since, unfortunately, the station was more than a few years down the road ultimately, what did you move on to next?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we saw the natural progression in Skylab. Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, much to his credit, said toward the end of our flight, "Just give them a couple of days off. Let them do whatever they want." And it was great. I took a Sunday off and I worked the ATM figuring out what I needed to do and then coordinated with the guys on the ground and went off and did it, and it was one of the most satisfying experiences up there, because it was no longer just trying to work to see how close you could get to where you were supposed to be and not be behind, but you really get ahead of it. It was enjoyable.

[Assistant] You got to flex your mind as well as just trying to keep up with things.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Well, when you did move on from NASA on that last stage as Shuttle was coming into view and since, unfortunately, the station was more than a few years down the road ultimately, what did you move on to next?

[User] I went to TRW, which is technically a very high-powered place, in California, worked on all their energy projects. At that time, if you recall, we had the energy crunch on. So I figured, okay, that's one of the larger challenges that our nation has right now, is alternate energy. So I did that for quite a few years and then the price of oil came back down, and, unfortunately, a lot of emphasis came off those things. But it was enjoyable while I did it.

[Assistant] And at some point along the road you got interested in writing science fiction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Well, when you did move on from NASA on that last stage as Shuttle was coming into view and since, unfortunately, the station was more than a few years down the road ultimately, what did you move on to next?

[User] I went to TRW, which is technically a very high-powered place, in California, worked on all their energy projects. At that time, if you recall, we had the energy crunch on. So I figured, okay, that's one of the larger challenges that our nation has right now, is alternate energy. So I did that for quite a few years and then the price of oil came back down, and, unfortunately, a lot of emphasis came off those things. But it was enjoyable while I did it.

[Assistant] And at some point along the road you got interested in writing science fiction.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, see, I had written that textbook and I knew how hard it was, because every fact had to be right and it had to be explained exactly. And I thought, gee, wouldn't it great some day to just sit down and you don't have to worry about facts or anything, just sit down and let it flow. By God, you ought to be able to rip a novel off in week, two weeks, no problem. And so I thought I'd give it a try, and I found that it isn't quite the way it works. But, nonetheless, it was really an enjoyable experience. It was a very creative experience, and I was always looking for something creative to do, and that was my outlet, because I'd find some of the things that I was doing, whether it was at TRW or others, where a lot of it was bureaucratic, unfortunately, even though you're working on the end result is very noble and very worthwhile, but the process for getting, many times creativity is left out of the picture. So I needed an outlet, and so I'd do that, and it was enjoyable.

[Assistant] And I'm sure you were at least able to put some of your experiences with the space program into play.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to TRW, which is technically a very high-powered place, in California, worked on all their energy projects. At that time, if you recall, we had the energy crunch on. So I figured, okay, that's one of the larger challenges that our nation has right now, is alternate energy. So I did that for quite a few years and then the price of oil came back down, and, unfortunately, a lot of emphasis came off those things. But it was enjoyable while I did it.

[Assistant] And at some point along the road you got interested in writing science fiction.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, see, I had written that textbook and I knew how hard it was, because every fact had to be right and it had to be explained exactly. And I thought, gee, wouldn't it great some day to just sit down and you don't have to worry about facts or anything, just sit down and let it flow. By God, you ought to be able to rip a novel off in week, two weeks, no problem. And so I thought I'd give it a try, and I found that it isn't quite the way it works. But, nonetheless, it was really an enjoyable experience. It was a very creative experience, and I was always looking for something creative to do, and that was my outlet, because I'd find some of the things that I was doing, whether it was at TRW or others, where a lot of it was bureaucratic, unfortunately, even though you're working on the end result is very noble and very worthwhile, but the process for getting, many times creativity is left out of the picture. So I needed an outlet, and so I'd do that, and it was enjoyable.

[Assistant] And I'm sure you were at least able to put some of your experiences with the space program into play.

[User] Yes, I did in the first novel, called Reach. I thought it was a good way to explain to people what it's really like to fly and do in a way which—no one wants to hear the Ed Gibson story.

[Assistant] Well, we do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, see, I had written that textbook and I knew how hard it was, because every fact had to be right and it had to be explained exactly. And I thought, gee, wouldn't it great some day to just sit down and you don't have to worry about facts or anything, just sit down and let it flow. By God, you ought to be able to rip a novel off in week, two weeks, no problem. And so I thought I'd give it a try, and I found that it isn't quite the way it works. But, nonetheless, it was really an enjoyable experience. It was a very creative experience, and I was always looking for something creative to do, and that was my outlet, because I'd find some of the things that I was doing, whether it was at TRW or others, where a lot of it was bureaucratic, unfortunately, even though you're working on the end result is very noble and very worthwhile, but the process for getting, many times creativity is left out of the picture. So I needed an outlet, and so I'd do that, and it was enjoyable.

[Assistant] And I'm sure you were at least able to put some of your experiences with the space program into play.

[User] Yes, I did in the first novel, called Reach. I thought it was a good way to explain to people what it's really like to fly and do in a way which—no one wants to hear the Ed Gibson story.

[Assistant] Well, we do.

[User] Well, yes, but I mean seriously. Maybe the Al Shepard story or the John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] story, but, you know, by the time we came along, people didn't even know who we were. But I still was interested in trying to get across to people what it was like to fly, so I put a lot of that in there.

[Assistant] Certainly a unique avenue to move into, and another new challenge for you, as you said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did in the first novel, called Reach. I thought it was a good way to explain to people what it's really like to fly and do in a way which—no one wants to hear the Ed Gibson story.

[Assistant] Well, we do.

[User] Well, yes, but I mean seriously. Maybe the Al Shepard story or the John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] story, but, you know, by the time we came along, people didn't even know who we were. But I still was interested in trying to get across to people what it was like to fly, so I put a lot of that in there.

[Assistant] Certainly a unique avenue to move into, and another new challenge for you, as you said.

[User] Yes, yes, that's right. Another. If the hill's not there, you've got to create your own.

[Assistant] Always good to have those hills and those challenges. Looking back over your whole career with the space program in particular, what do you consider was your biggest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, but I mean seriously. Maybe the Al Shepard story or the John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] story, but, you know, by the time we came along, people didn't even know who we were. But I still was interested in trying to get across to people what it was like to fly, so I put a lot of that in there.

[Assistant] Certainly a unique avenue to move into, and another new challenge for you, as you said.

[User] Yes, yes, that's right. Another. If the hill's not there, you've got to create your own.

[Assistant] Always good to have those hills and those challenges. Looking back over your whole career with the space program in particular, what do you consider was your biggest challenge?

[User] Probably the biggest challenge was that huge step up that I faced when we first got into the program, was to become technically competent, learn all you had to about spacecraft and how to make it fly, the public relations, working alongside people who you regarded as legends at the very beginning. It was one heck of a challenge.\n\n I mean, you're down here and you look at where you've got to be is up here, and that's a pretty high step to climb, and you were just scrambling every day trying to figure out if you were ever going to get there and how to do it. So that was probably the biggest challenge. I mean, you had to balance all these things, the technical side, the public relations side, the human interaction side, and still try to keep some semblance of a family together. Fortunately, my wife did a great job there. So I think without having a supporting wife, I couldn't have done that.

[Assistant] How did your family take all of your activities in the space program and adapt to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I've said many times that if it wasn't me, it would have someone else who would have gone through and done the whole thing. So I'd have to say what did I bring to it that was unique? I think it was that I had this background from Caltech and had a real good understanding of physics in some areas and then applied it in solar physics. Then I also had an athletic background, so I was able to work all these things in together and apply it to the astronaut program.\n\n I think that's an accomplishment, being able to bring all those things together and perform at a certain level of excellence that someone else may not have because they didn't have the same background or the same inherent wiring in their brain structure, whatever it is. But I thought perhaps that was something that I was unique in and was able to contribute in that one area. So, you know, I was in the right place at the right time. If they'd asked to be an opera singer, it would have been all over.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly did have all the right stuff, in a sense, to make it all happen and to make quite a unique contribution, and we certainly appreciate you sharing that with us today.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you can think of that we didn't touch on, that you'd like to mention?

[User] No, other than that, as I said many times, I was just glad to be in that spot, because since then you realize when you're not in such a privileged spot, how difficult it is sometimes to make an impact the way you'd like to. There you just had everything going for you. The wind was at your back all the way. It was a great opportunity. And then you get a lot of people, my wife in particular, who supported me.

[Assistant] Well, I thank you for the opportunity of letting me talk to you today. It's been a pleasure for me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My name is Benny Cespedes. When did I join the Peace Corps? Also, it was like something new and probably it was more a spirit of adventure that I joined the Peace Corps. I do not remember this time exactly what it was all about. I thought I at the first chance I took the what do you call the picture? Let me explain it to us in what was April or May. It was great.

[Assistant] When it was created, when the Peace Corps was created?

[User] It was established in 1961.

[Assistant] Ok, and this is Jeff Liu. Today is June 22nd, 2019. I'm interviewing Benny and his experience in Pakistan.

[User] Ok, will you repeat again?

[Assistant] So, um, what was life like before the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was established in 1961.

[Assistant] Ok, and this is Jeff Liu. Today is June 22nd, 2019. I'm interviewing Benny and his experience in Pakistan.

[User] Ok, will you repeat again?

[Assistant] So, um, what was life like before the Peace Corps?

[User]
</TIMESTAMP>00:01:27</TIMESTAMP> What was life like before the Peace Corps? What were you doing? That's a big question.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to school at the time. I was working in the post office during summer camp and I was planning to go back to college and taking my degree in mechanical engineering. I had a major in electrical engineering and that's I was a student. So that was how life was when before I joined the Peace Corps

[Assistant] What was your family life like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, will you repeat again?

[Assistant] So, um, what was life like before the Peace Corps?

[User]
</TIMESTAMP>00:01:27</TIMESTAMP> What was life like before the Peace Corps? What were you doing? That's a big question.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to school at the time. I was working in the post office during summer camp and I was planning to go back to college and taking my degree in mechanical engineering. I had a major in electrical engineering and that's I was a student. So that was how life was when before I joined the Peace Corps

[Assistant] What was your family life like?

[User]
My family or in the Philippines? Yeah, I was all by myself in the states are going. Yeah, I had a friend in Ohio or my me on Guam, but he was teaching a picture of who you were working and you were working on Guam, I think. Yeah. When you met him. I worked with in Guam.

Yeah. You were working in Guam.

Run that course before I went on the stage, before I went to Indiana to go to school using my GI Bill of Rights, I think.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. How did you hear about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
</TIMESTAMP>00:01:27</TIMESTAMP> What was life like before the Peace Corps? What were you doing? That's a big question.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to school at the time. I was working in the post office during summer camp and I was planning to go back to college and taking my degree in mechanical engineering. I had a major in electrical engineering and that's I was a student. So that was how life was when before I joined the Peace Corps

[Assistant] What was your family life like?

[User]
My family or in the Philippines? Yeah, I was all by myself in the states are going. Yeah, I had a friend in Ohio or my me on Guam, but he was teaching a picture of who you were working and you were working on Guam, I think. Yeah. When you met him. I worked with in Guam.

Yeah. You were working in Guam.

Run that course before I went on the stage, before I went to Indiana to go to school using my GI Bill of Rights, I think.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Hmm. I have to remember, I think it was, I don't remember what it was on the television or radio or newspaper. I really don't remember, it was most probably a based on

[Assistant] What did you think about the Peace Corps when you heard about it on the television?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
My family or in the Philippines? Yeah, I was all by myself in the states are going. Yeah, I had a friend in Ohio or my me on Guam, but he was teaching a picture of who you were working and you were working on Guam, I think. Yeah. When you met him. I worked with in Guam.

Yeah. You were working in Guam.

Run that course before I went on the stage, before I went to Indiana to go to school using my GI Bill of Rights, I think.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Hmm. I have to remember, I think it was, I don't remember what it was on the television or radio or newspaper. I really don't remember, it was most probably a based on

[Assistant] What did you think about the Peace Corps when you heard about it on the television?

[User] Oh, I think it was something that people can do to help other people in other countries. And I believe that at that time, I'd like to speak about a group of people who they felt they, despite this, I decided to make a change may mean it will not change.

[Assistant] How old were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I have to remember, I think it was, I don't remember what it was on the television or radio or newspaper. I really don't remember, it was most probably a based on

[Assistant] What did you think about the Peace Corps when you heard about it on the television?

[User] Oh, I think it was something that people can do to help other people in other countries. And I believe that at that time, I'd like to speak about a group of people who they felt they, despite this, I decided to make a change may mean it will not change.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User] Take you to work.

[Assistant] How old were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it was something that people can do to help other people in other countries. And I believe that at that time, I'd like to speak about a group of people who they felt they, despite this, I decided to make a change may mean it will not change.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User] Take you to work.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User]
61 and 29. I was 32. Medical at 32. I was 31. At that time, I just don't don't granddad, my dad, my the chairman of the electrical department and get my degree in engineering so I didn't have to go back to school, I was stuck at 3/4 hours at that time.

[inaudible]

[Assistant] Oh. Can you introduce yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Take you to work.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User]
61 and 29. I was 32. Medical at 32. I was 31. At that time, I just don't don't granddad, my dad, my the chairman of the electrical department and get my degree in engineering so I didn't have to go back to school, I was stuck at 3/4 hours at that time.

[inaudible]

[Assistant] Oh. Can you introduce yourself?

[User] Yes. This is Carol Cespedes, Benny’s wife. I'm sitting here because Benny is hard of hearing. And I was also in Pakistan, although not a Peace Corps volunteer. I just coached Benny or Jeff to say something about Benny’s service in the Army.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
61 and 29. I was 32. Medical at 32. I was 31. At that time, I just don't don't granddad, my dad, my the chairman of the electrical department and get my degree in engineering so I didn't have to go back to school, I was stuck at 3/4 hours at that time.

[inaudible]

[Assistant] Oh. Can you introduce yourself?

[User] Yes. This is Carol Cespedes, Benny’s wife. I'm sitting here because Benny is hard of hearing. And I was also in Pakistan, although not a Peace Corps volunteer. I just coached Benny or Jeff to say something about Benny’s service in the Army.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the application process?

[User] Well, application process, like the Peace Corps? Yes, well, I out that I think the best days I took them or whatever. Um, uh. I don't know what I like getting the firms to work experience and so forth in the background, and I forgot all about that actually.

[Assistant] Did they interview you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. This is Carol Cespedes, Benny’s wife. I'm sitting here because Benny is hard of hearing. And I was also in Pakistan, although not a Peace Corps volunteer. I just coached Benny or Jeff to say something about Benny’s service in the Army.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the application process?

[User] Well, application process, like the Peace Corps? Yes, well, I out that I think the best days I took them or whatever. Um, uh. I don't know what I like getting the firms to work experience and so forth in the background, and I forgot all about that actually.

[Assistant] Did they interview you?

[User] Yeah, when I first filled out the first thing it was in March or April. And I went to work for the post office. And then I got a telegram from Shriver at that time with people that were invited to training. OK, I'm amazed that you are yet accepted by what? Medical training? And by the same time, I had a job offer a technical writer for a company in Silver Spring, Maryland. So I was in a quandary and I asked my friend in Ohio, what's his opinion, what would you do. And he said, take the Peace Corps, whichever one you take, you'll regret it. He recommended that the Peace Corps. So I thought they accepted the invitation, the training which took place to take place in the Fort Collins. And then in Colorado, I mean, University of Colorado in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Assistant] OK. This was in 1961?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, application process, like the Peace Corps? Yes, well, I out that I think the best days I took them or whatever. Um, uh. I don't know what I like getting the firms to work experience and so forth in the background, and I forgot all about that actually.

[Assistant] Did they interview you?

[User] Yeah, when I first filled out the first thing it was in March or April. And I went to work for the post office. And then I got a telegram from Shriver at that time with people that were invited to training. OK, I'm amazed that you are yet accepted by what? Medical training? And by the same time, I had a job offer a technical writer for a company in Silver Spring, Maryland. So I was in a quandary and I asked my friend in Ohio, what's his opinion, what would you do. And he said, take the Peace Corps, whichever one you take, you'll regret it. He recommended that the Peace Corps. So I thought they accepted the invitation, the training which took place to take place in the Fort Collins. And then in Colorado, I mean, University of Colorado in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Assistant] OK. This was in 1961?

[User] 1961 August, August. I understand that our group was the number nine to go and training and number seven to go overseas where we were posted.

[Assistant] Seventh to go to Pakistan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, when I first filled out the first thing it was in March or April. And I went to work for the post office. And then I got a telegram from Shriver at that time with people that were invited to training. OK, I'm amazed that you are yet accepted by what? Medical training? And by the same time, I had a job offer a technical writer for a company in Silver Spring, Maryland. So I was in a quandary and I asked my friend in Ohio, what's his opinion, what would you do. And he said, take the Peace Corps, whichever one you take, you'll regret it. He recommended that the Peace Corps. So I thought they accepted the invitation, the training which took place to take place in the Fort Collins. And then in Colorado, I mean, University of Colorado in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Assistant] OK. This was in 1961?

[User] 1961 August, August. I understand that our group was the number nine to go and training and number seven to go overseas where we were posted.

[Assistant] Seventh to go to Pakistan?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Seventh to go to Pakistan?