[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did, when we’d actually have to mail those up to the ILC. Not much, but some of the things. They’d say hey, can you draw this out, and we’ll send it up, with some Polaroids or whatever else they had. But not a whole lot. Then when we started working over at what was ILC Space Systems for a while, I worked over there. We were actually doing some drawings of different pieces of hardware.

[Assistant]
Someone else have a question?

Are you still doing watercolor, or are you using other mediums on your paintings?

[User] No, I’m doing watercolors. I just got back. I did a couple pieces in acrylic. Then this I worked on over the weekend, so it’s stage four of that one. That’s the second time I sanded it. I started over because I found my reference material when I took that in the Smithsonian [National Air and Space Museum, Washington, D.C.] at the [Paul E.] Garber [Preservation, Restoration, and Storage] Facility. That’s the way [Charles C.] Pete Conrad’s suit was. Amanda Young had pulled it back so we could take a look at it. I just thought wow, suits that you worked on many years ago. That’s his suit number 614 Skylab suit.

[Assistant] That’s oils, right?

[User] This is oils, yes. So I’m working in all three of them. Yes.

[Assistant] When you’re going through insertion on the day of launch, I know the time is very structured and it’s very tight, and you rehearse over and over and train. Is the conversation very structured or is there any levity? Is there some chit-chat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim [James A.] Lovell. I think Dave [David R.] Scott on [Apollo] 15. I don’t remember. Owen [K.] Garriott. But then of course after when you’re doing the Skylab, all the things that you used to do over in the Flight Crew Training Building, all that went away except for the command module simulation. They can go over to train. One other thing. Some of the guys when they came out of the MOL program, Frank Hernandez and Troy Stewart and Byron Smith. Byron was a real jokester. He was underneath the trainer, and we had a way we could do pressurization and liquid cooling. So he waves me over and he had cut off CDR water. He said, “I got to go out for a minute. Here. Watch this.”\n\n I didn’t look at the flow meters or ask him even. I just knew they weren’t pressurized. So I put the headphones on and couple minutes later it’s like “Suit tech.”\n\n “Go ahead.”\n\n “Who told you to cut the water off?”\n\n “Don’t know what happened, sir. It’s back on, sir.”\n\n “I’ll tell you when to cut the water off, damn it, listen to me.” You could see Byron over there laughing. Gotcha. He was good when you had the suit pressurized to like eight psi, to come behind you with one of the surgical pans that we used to clean hardware in and just drop it behind you. You want to tear the console down.

[Assistant] I’m sure you never played any pranks.

[User] No, absolutely not.

[Assistant] You don’t want to confess any, that’s it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Ron, I would like to know who was the most influential person in your life and why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, absolutely not.

[Assistant] You don’t want to confess any, that’s it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Ron, I would like to know who was the most influential person in your life and why.

[User] Probably my mom, because she’s the one that told me about the job out here.

[Assistant] And taught you to sew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Ron, I would like to know who was the most influential person in your life and why.

[User] Probably my mom, because she’s the one that told me about the job out here.

[Assistant] And taught you to sew.

[User] Taught me to sew, yes. But no, I just look at everybody that I’ve ever known. It’s really been an honor to work out here, but just the people themselves over the years. It’s just tremendous. To see different faces come into the flight crew area down there on a fact finding mission, or looking at their hardware and knowing that hey, if you ever need anything we’re here. Call us and we’ll help you out.

[Assistant] As we’ve gone through the suit evolution, I didn’t get a chance to ask you about the impact on your team after the [Space Shuttle] Challenger accident [STS 51-L].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After I got out of Georgia Tech, I received an offer from NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], but I wanted to work for an aircraft company. I went to work for Douglas Aircraft Company. But then they wanted me to come and be at Langley field. They wanted me to come and be with NACA. I was getting drafted and I was going to be put on duty with the Army Air Corps. They wanted to assign me to Langley. So that's how I ended up, because of the military, being drafted and put on duty at NACA Langley. I worked there for over two years, two years and ten months, something like that before I was discharged. The war was over by then. I was discharged. I worked on airplanes, propellers, and various airplanes to make them faster for the war effort and so forth.\n\n Then after my discharge, I thought I was going back to Douglas Aircraft Company and I received an offer to come back, but I was pretty much involved with the work. I had pretty much become a citizen of Virginia, and I stayed.

[Assistant] Was that the reason why you stayed, because you enjoyed Virginia?

[User] I enjoyed the work.

[Assistant] What types of things did you perform? What types of things did you do?

[User] I was a flight test engineer. I was an aeronautical research engineer doing flight test work on propulsion aerodynamics. I got involved with making airplanes go faster. In those days, the way you make airplanes go faster is a combination. The propulsion system has a lot to do with it. I designed a series of transonic and supersonic propellers. I had a test vehicle that was a jet, turbojet penetration airplane, and we mounted a turboprop engine in the nose so we could test the propellers that we designed on this in free flight.

[Assistant] What kind of plane is this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed the work.

[Assistant] What types of things did you perform? What types of things did you do?

[User] I was a flight test engineer. I was an aeronautical research engineer doing flight test work on propulsion aerodynamics. I got involved with making airplanes go faster. In those days, the way you make airplanes go faster is a combination. The propulsion system has a lot to do with it. I designed a series of transonic and supersonic propellers. I had a test vehicle that was a jet, turbojet penetration airplane, and we mounted a turboprop engine in the nose so we could test the propellers that we designed on this in free flight.

[Assistant] What kind of plane is this?

[User] That's a McDonnell F-88. McDonnell F-88. It was built in St. Louis. Only two were built, and we got both of them. We used one for spare parts. This plane went on to become an attack, a penetration fighter for the Air Force, but it got bigger. It was called F-101 then, but the name of it, Voodoo, stuck. It was the F-88 Voodoo. This is called the XF-88B, and with this plane we were able to test propellers in free flight up to Mach numbers 1.1, and we were able to show that propellers could be just as efficient, if designed properly, at those speeds as they were subsonic, and turbojets were very inefficient, very inefficient.

[Assistant] How are they more inefficient?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That became the Mercury Program.

[Assistant] What exactly did you do throughout the Mercury Program?

[User] Well, starting out, it was obvious that we needed to find out something about it. And lo and behold— [Referring to documentation] This was written October 13, 1958, how we could bring it out of a C-130 and how we could measure its characteristics as it came down. So I did. We got a boilerplate capsule and I designed the parachute recovery system. We took it down to Fort Bragg. I painted the capsule olive drab in case we had any problems, so it wouldn't look like a NASA thing. But it came out and it worked fine.\n\n Pretty soon, the program was accepted, as you know, and they renamed it Project Mercury. We had a group of people that started working on it. As I say, I had gotten involved with that. So they decided to get some people together to pursue the project, and the Center director put together the people, thirty-five or thirty-six people that started what some called the Space Task Group.

[Assistant] Can I ask you what these memos that you are showing me exactly are?

[User] This memo here is my proposal for doing a gravity drop of the satellite to see what its landing characteristics were, the operation of the parachute, to test out the system. Because the landing phase of anything, as you know, is very important, the landing phase of an airplane. It would be to check out the capsule parachute activating system, to measure the dynamics of the landing, to see how that worked in the final phase of the flight, because although the problem is to launch it up into space, you've got to bring it back down. And if we're going to put a man in it, you're going to have to have that all worked out. So that was the purpose of these tests. Those were the things that I did.

[Assistant] What did you find was the most challenging throughout this program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seemed like it was Gemini VIII. Maybe it was Gemini VIII, because in Gemini VIII is when we had the problem with the thrusters and they thought it was the Agena because it was new, and it was the thrusters on the spacecraft. They undocked with it.

[Assistant] And how did you feel when you heard about those problems?

[User] I didn't think it was the Agena. I was in the control center at the time, and I knew the Agena wouldn't do that. I knew it wasn't that. It was the thrusters on the spacecraft.

[Assistant] At that time you said you had just moved out to Houston.

[User] We'd moved out to Houston a little bit earlier than that, in the beginning of the Gemini Program. In fact, as I took the astronauts, we chartered an airplane and we took the astronauts all around on tour of all of the facilities where all of the Agena stuff was being built: Aerojet in Sacramento [California], the engines for the Agena out at Sunnyvale [California], and the Atlas down at San Diego [California]. We had a good time traveling all around together. And they moved out.\n\n It was kind of a tough thing. I had just put in a new air-conditioning system in my house, and not many people had central air-conditioning then. I put in a new system and all, and when I tried to sell my house, there was five inches of snow on the ground in Virginia. I told the guy about it, and he said, "I don't care about air-conditioning!"\n\n Anyway, we all moved down here. There was a development coming up about the time we all moved down. I moved down to be reasonably close to a friend of mine. A lot of the astronauts settled in that same little subdivision over here, the one they call Timber Cove. Gus was across the street from me, Wally was over here, and John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] was over here.

[Assistant] I used to live in Timber Cove with my grandparents.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, things were so fast, and while Apollo 8 was going on, of course, we were turning out the planning products for other Apollo missions, the follow-on missions. After Apollo 8, we were concentrating on additional things like the lunar rendezvous capability.

[Assistant] Were you able to use some of the first work that you worked on?

[User] No. The early rendezvous work was only of historical interest. That document was sort of recognized by a few of the rendezvous people, but that was like, “Oh, that was done way back when, you know, so that’s trivia.” It was of interest though in that all of the computations were done on the Friden—prior to computers.

[Assistant] Just a few years, but yet. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] A lot had happened in those years, hadn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The early rendezvous work was only of historical interest. That document was sort of recognized by a few of the rendezvous people, but that was like, “Oh, that was done way back when, you know, so that’s trivia.” It was of interest though in that all of the computations were done on the Friden—prior to computers.

[Assistant] Just a few years, but yet. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] A lot had happened in those years, hadn’t it?

[User] And, of course, the work done at Langley was Earth orbit trajectory analysis, and it was very simplistic, in terms of accuracy of computation, because there was no atmospheric model or anything like that. It was really conceptual and had to do with the later phase of rendezvous trajectories to a Space Station. But I looked at that TN not too long ago, and it was sort of interesting to read in the context of the 1960 publication date.

[Assistant] How much information were you able to use from the Mercury and Gemini flights to apply to what you were going to do for Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] A lot had happened in those years, hadn’t it?

[User] And, of course, the work done at Langley was Earth orbit trajectory analysis, and it was very simplistic, in terms of accuracy of computation, because there was no atmospheric model or anything like that. It was really conceptual and had to do with the later phase of rendezvous trajectories to a Space Station. But I looked at that TN not too long ago, and it was sort of interesting to read in the context of the 1960 publication date.

[Assistant] How much information were you able to use from the Mercury and Gemini flights to apply to what you were going to do for Apollo?

[User] A tremendous amount of technology was transferred from the early programs into the Apollo mission planning tools. Earth models, atmosphere models, rendezvous planning and analysis tools, etc., were fed directly into the Apollo planning tools. And of course there was a direct transfer of knowledge and experience into the lunar trajectory section.\n\n Something that was very complex, even complex today is to represent the upper atmosphere density, and how that influences the orbit of a spacecraft in low Earth orbit. Ed Lineberry and Sam Wilson (and others) developed analytic models to represent the atmospheric density in a simplistic model to avoid extensive integration.\n\n The Gemini rendezvous techniques were used and the orbital/flight data from the actual vehicles were used to test our modeling (e.g., the Earth’s oblateness). We used things like radiation profiles to get the Van Allen [Radiation] Belt better represented, and of course, the atmospheric density. Then up around the Moon, we took the flight data and improved the math model of the Moon to get things like what they called MassCons, which were mass concentrations that perturbed the lunar orbit. But postflight analysis was always done to perfect the mathematical models.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about those fast days, that were really years, between Apollo 8 and Apollo 11, and how you and your group took that data and applied it to prepare for Apollo 11.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, it was infinitely gratifying, but from a collective perspective. In other words, it wasn’t as much a matter of personal accomplishment as it was an Agency accomplishment. It was just extremely gratifying that the whole thing came off, and of course, a great deal of pride.\n\n But looking back on it, certainly for me it is hard to even think in terms of personal accomplishment, because it was such a group activity, and you had such phenomenal leadership. Now, somebody like Glynn Lunney and Chris Kraft and [Sigurd A.] Sig Sjoberg and Bill Tindall and John Mayer, if he were here, and Carl Huss, well, I think they could look back on it and almost say, “This was partly because of me.”\n\n But somebody at my level, even though I had unique expertise, I am sure that had I not been there, somebody else would have done it. It was that sort of thing. But, I have other friends my age that have had other careers, and there’s probably nothing comparable with the early days of the space program, in terms of a real opportunity to do something interesting and unique and pioneering. It really was a tremendously gratifying experience.

[Assistant] A different type of reward for the agency and your family, other than the Apollo landing, was, of course, the recovery of Apollo 13 and bringing that crew—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what your involvement was with that rescue?

[User] Yes, we can do that. Can we take a break?

[Assistant]
We can.\n\n [pause]

—Apollo 13. Were you ready to move on to there, or was there anything that you want to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we can do that. Can we take a break?

[Assistant]
We can.\n\n [pause]

—Apollo 13. Were you ready to move on to there, or was there anything that you want to talk about?

[User] I think, one thing, we do have to go all the way back to Langley after a while.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We hadn’t talked about the MPAD parties yet.

[Assistant] All right. We’ve got to talk about that. I’ll make myself a note.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, one thing, we do have to go all the way back to Langley after a while.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We hadn’t talked about the MPAD parties yet.

[Assistant] All right. We’ve got to talk about that. I’ll make myself a note.

[User] Apollo 13, the entire Agency was of course involved in that. As soon as there was an indication there was a problem, the back room activity got very, very intense. All of the “what if” type considerations and concerns required analysts to do trajectory computations including when should you do a midcourse correction, what type midcourse correction, and what systems would be utilized for it and all that sort of thing.\n\n Obviously the center of gravity for that activity was in the Control Center. That’s where the decisions were made, and that’s where our management basically was. But the back room activity was intense—that’s where the “what-if” computations were done. That information was fed to the managers who were asking the questions, “What if you did such and such at such and such a time?”\n\n Generally that would require a lot of activity and a lot of computation to answer those questions, so that was an intense time and a very active time for everybody involved, because there were analysts all over the country. Especially the systems people, the hardware people themselves were working to see, well, what system had failed and exactly how did it fail and how did that jeopardize an adjacent system.

[Assistant] Were you constantly being asked for inputs, or was there a certain time in the recovery activities that your group became more vital to bringing the crew back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For some of the select payloads, the security measures were very constraining. All the local meetings were held in a little vault room that was specially shielded and equipped over in Building 1. You went in behind a secure lock, and you couldn’t take any notes, or you could take notes, but they had to be left in the room. You couldn’t take any information out, and of course, you couldn’t discuss it with anybody. That created some awkward situations with our relationship with our managers.

[Assistant] During those days you spent planning, did you get involved at all in the early days of the station planning?

[User] Only with the development of the integrated planning system, but not in the launch planning, or the assembly. I did do some assembly sequence evaluation but never really got into nominal mission planning. But I was following all the planning activity to see what the requirements imposed on the Integrated Planning System, the software that was being developed.

[Assistant] Was that prior to launch?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Have you worked on anything regarding the station since it’s launched or been a part of any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only with the development of the integrated planning system, but not in the launch planning, or the assembly. I did do some assembly sequence evaluation but never really got into nominal mission planning. But I was following all the planning activity to see what the requirements imposed on the Integrated Planning System, the software that was being developed.

[Assistant] Was that prior to launch?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Have you worked on anything regarding the station since it’s launched or been a part of any of that?

[User] Not to any extent.

[Assistant] You have mentioned off and on during the session about the computers and how they changed. At what point did NASA start to have enough computer power to do the work that they needed, where you weren’t having to go down to the University of Houston or the Medical Center, to stop using theirs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Have you worked on anything regarding the station since it’s launched or been a part of any of that?

[User] Not to any extent.

[Assistant] You have mentioned off and on during the session about the computers and how they changed. At what point did NASA start to have enough computer power to do the work that they needed, where you weren’t having to go down to the University of Houston or the Medical Center, to stop using theirs?

[User] I don’t think that we got computer capability, at least our group didn’t, until we came to MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center] on NASA Road 1, when they built the new building, and that was probably [19]’64. Perhaps the engineering group had a computer prior to the move to MSC. But we really didn’t get the computer capability that we needed until we came down here. I believe that we had the 1620 up at HPC, but all of our work, and especially in the lunar area, HPC was not nearly adequate to do that.

[Assistant] How was your area impacted by the change of technology, especially in the computer world, over those next years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not to any extent.

[Assistant] You have mentioned off and on during the session about the computers and how they changed. At what point did NASA start to have enough computer power to do the work that they needed, where you weren’t having to go down to the University of Houston or the Medical Center, to stop using theirs?

[User] I don’t think that we got computer capability, at least our group didn’t, until we came to MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center] on NASA Road 1, when they built the new building, and that was probably [19]’64. Perhaps the engineering group had a computer prior to the move to MSC. But we really didn’t get the computer capability that we needed until we came down here. I believe that we had the 1620 up at HPC, but all of our work, and especially in the lunar area, HPC was not nearly adequate to do that.

[Assistant] How was your area impacted by the change of technology, especially in the computer world, over those next years?

[User] It was impacted tremendously. It’s still amazing to me. I remember when they got to 128 kilobytes, that we thought that was a lot of memory, and that was probably adequate. And it’s still amazing to me that we could have put a lunar landing program on a 128-kilobyte machine. Of course bigger and faster computers simplified the generation and documentation of planning products tremendously.\n\n I remember when—and I don’t know what year that was—the IBM 360 came out, and that was a real big machine. I always thought that a tremendously interesting story would be the history of the computer within NASA, and how we went from one capability to the next and what the impact had on efficiency.

[Assistant] What other duties were you assigned during your career with NASA that were a bit unique? I believe one that we learned about was that you did some reporting to the International Aéronautique Federation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably six or seven, something like that. Quite a few.

[Assistant] Did you have any other unique assignments that stand out?

[User] I don’t believe. Not really.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier you wanted to go back, all the way back to Langley, and we understand your reputation for hosting some parties.

[User] Oh yes, the parties. [Laughs] Yes.\n\n Well, I don’t know how the tradition got started, but up at Langley I had a house out on Chesapeake Bay on Windmill Point, and it was a perfect party house. Several months before the Space Task Group moved to Houston we had a big party for the mission planning organization. They all came and we had a real party. That’s how the “tradition” got started, and we continued it through the life of MPAD. We got together several times a year for a good time\n\n MPAD was always a very socially active group. In fact, that was probably the outstanding characteristic of the Mission Planning and Analysis Division; it was so much like a family. It still is today. It was dissolved in 1990, but members of the group still get together for MPAD luncheons every two or three months. We usually have about sixty people show up, and that’s pretty good since it has been about fifteen years since the organization was dissolved. Most organizations don’t have that many show up for social events while they’re active.\n\n But it seemed that once someone joined the group they seldom left. That was probably true all over NASA. They just stayed and stayed and stayed, so everybody got to know everybody very well, and they got to be like family. Really, a congenial group. That was one thing that made the work interesting. It was always a close team effort.

[Assistant] Did you have many of your group go back to Virginia after you moved to Houston, some that just didn’t want to work here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Perhaps, but I don’t know of many who did. But in the early years employment in the Space Program was such a wonderful opportunity that I doubt many would have given it up unless there were other circumstances.

[Assistant] Before we close today, we’d like to ask you just share with us some of your most memorable times. Maybe when you think back on the times that you spent with your NASA family, what are some of your most favorite experiences or memories that you have that you’d share with us?

[User] There were of course many. One of the most memorable experiences was Apollo 8. I am not sure exactly why—maybe it was just the circumstances of the day. Of course, for everyone, the first lunar landing was truly incredible. But also the early sub-orbital and orbital flights were exciting too. The unknowns were so overwhelming.\n\n Of course the tragedy of the fire was very memorable. That was a horrible thing. It was a reminder of just how vulnerable we really were, and how we could make mistakes. The spacecraft was filled with errors and design flaws. The tragedy was a red flag emphasizing the importance of proper procedures and thorough testing. As bad as it was, it definitely contributed to the success of the Program downstream. Then the Challenger accident was indescribable. That was at such a rough time, anyway. I knew the crew personally. That was just so incredibly shocking.

[Assistant] Where were you working or what area were you working with the Challenger, for the Challenger accident?

[User] I was involved with the STAS activity and was working Shuttle Utilization concept development.

[Assistant] Did the results of that investigation or the Rogers Commission [Presidential Commission to investigate the Challenger accident], did that affect any of the work or the studies that you were working on at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were of course many. One of the most memorable experiences was Apollo 8. I am not sure exactly why—maybe it was just the circumstances of the day. Of course, for everyone, the first lunar landing was truly incredible. But also the early sub-orbital and orbital flights were exciting too. The unknowns were so overwhelming.\n\n Of course the tragedy of the fire was very memorable. That was a horrible thing. It was a reminder of just how vulnerable we really were, and how we could make mistakes. The spacecraft was filled with errors and design flaws. The tragedy was a red flag emphasizing the importance of proper procedures and thorough testing. As bad as it was, it definitely contributed to the success of the Program downstream. Then the Challenger accident was indescribable. That was at such a rough time, anyway. I knew the crew personally. That was just so incredibly shocking.

[Assistant] Where were you working or what area were you working with the Challenger, for the Challenger accident?

[User] I was involved with the STAS activity and was working Shuttle Utilization concept development.

[Assistant] Did the results of that investigation or the Rogers Commission [Presidential Commission to investigate the Challenger accident], did that affect any of the work or the studies that you were working on at all?

[User] Only indirectly. It was really so hardware oriented that—of course, it emphasized the fact that everything needed to be checked more carefully, but by that time I think the spirit that was there during Apollo had somehow eroded. There was a totally different environment within NASA. But there was still the NASA family view and feeling. It was such a terrible tragic accident. It was totally devastating to most people that I knew.

[Assistant] What would you consider to be the most challenging time that you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a stay-at-home mom doing the volunteer work and that sort of stuff. At that point I still had little kids, but it was, like, okay, maybe I need to start thinking about going back to work.

[Assistant] Did that involve any school or you knew about the National Archives?

[User] Actually, I knew about it because my husband had done lots of research out here. He was good friends with Alan Perry and Reed Whitaker and Diana Duff. Diana was a student of his. I knew people out here and they said we've got volunteers. We can do preservation. It's not genie work. If you'd like to do it, I think you'd enjoy it. So I started volunteering and then a year and a half later they said would you like to get paid a small pittance for doing what you're doing for free and I said, well, why not. So that started being part-time. Eventually I ended up with a full-time job.

[Assistant] What year would you say you started volunteering?

[User] I think it was probably in 1987. My 10-year-old was in fifth grade at that time.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about what your impressions were of the agency when you started your career or when you started coming on-site to volunteer and do work with the records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, I knew about it because my husband had done lots of research out here. He was good friends with Alan Perry and Reed Whitaker and Diana Duff. Diana was a student of his. I knew people out here and they said we've got volunteers. We can do preservation. It's not genie work. If you'd like to do it, I think you'd enjoy it. So I started volunteering and then a year and a half later they said would you like to get paid a small pittance for doing what you're doing for free and I said, well, why not. So that started being part-time. Eventually I ended up with a full-time job.

[Assistant] What year would you say you started volunteering?

[User] I think it was probably in 1987. My 10-year-old was in fifth grade at that time.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about what your impressions were of the agency when you started your career or when you started coming on-site to volunteer and do work with the records?

[User] As I said I knew some stuff about it—maybe because my husband did research and stuff like that and was also an archivist besides his other real job. I kind of knew, you know, and I thought, okay, a little chance because I had not gone back to school. I talked about it. I had thought about going back into computer science. I just never did. We had the kids and they were small and they did not have a computer science program at U of KC at that time. And so it just kind of, I had done indexing for books—my husband's books and stuff like that. And I did have a history major besides.

[Assistant] What was a typical day or week for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was probably in 1987. My 10-year-old was in fifth grade at that time.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about what your impressions were of the agency when you started your career or when you started coming on-site to volunteer and do work with the records?

[User] As I said I knew some stuff about it—maybe because my husband did research and stuff like that and was also an archivist besides his other real job. I kind of knew, you know, and I thought, okay, a little chance because I had not gone back to school. I talked about it. I had thought about going back into computer science. I just never did. We had the kids and they were small and they did not have a computer science program at U of KC at that time. And so it just kind of, I had done indexing for books—my husband's books and stuff like that. And I did have a history major besides.

[Assistant] What was a typical day or week for you?

[User] I did a lot of processing. The early on reference was done completely different than it is now. There was one person in charge of reference and basically did it or might dole something out. She wanted control. I won’t go into that. It was done differently so I didn't do a lot of reference. It was mostly processing out of the FRC boxes, into the Hollinger's. Some of it, the first project was just strictly out of the brown boxes to Hollingers. I was going through the 135's to make sure everything was there. Most of what I've done has—a lot of it was working with the Indian agencies. We've got a lot of BIA records and I think they have finally finished the last processing.

[Assistant] And, you were co-editor of the Guide to Records at the National Archives at Kansas City?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I said I knew some stuff about it—maybe because my husband did research and stuff like that and was also an archivist besides his other real job. I kind of knew, you know, and I thought, okay, a little chance because I had not gone back to school. I talked about it. I had thought about going back into computer science. I just never did. We had the kids and they were small and they did not have a computer science program at U of KC at that time. And so it just kind of, I had done indexing for books—my husband's books and stuff like that. And I did have a history major besides.

[Assistant] What was a typical day or week for you?

[User] I did a lot of processing. The early on reference was done completely different than it is now. There was one person in charge of reference and basically did it or might dole something out. She wanted control. I won’t go into that. It was done differently so I didn't do a lot of reference. It was mostly processing out of the FRC boxes, into the Hollinger's. Some of it, the first project was just strictly out of the brown boxes to Hollingers. I was going through the 135's to make sure everything was there. Most of what I've done has—a lot of it was working with the Indian agencies. We've got a lot of BIA records and I think they have finally finished the last processing.

[Assistant] And, you were co-editor of the Guide to Records at the National Archives at Kansas City?

[User] It was an update on the—I got a copy if you would like to see.

[Assistant] I would love to see it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did a lot of processing. The early on reference was done completely different than it is now. There was one person in charge of reference and basically did it or might dole something out. She wanted control. I won’t go into that. It was done differently so I didn't do a lot of reference. It was mostly processing out of the FRC boxes, into the Hollinger's. Some of it, the first project was just strictly out of the brown boxes to Hollingers. I was going through the 135's to make sure everything was there. Most of what I've done has—a lot of it was working with the Indian agencies. We've got a lot of BIA records and I think they have finally finished the last processing.

[Assistant] And, you were co-editor of the Guide to Records at the National Archives at Kansas City?

[User] It was an update on the—I got a copy if you would like to see.

[Assistant] I would love to see it.

[User] I didn't know whether I still had one because back then there was no internet. So this was the finding aid. It was an update and I don't know if you knew Nancy Malan. She was in Washington.

[Assistant] She was my first boss when I moved to Maryland.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an update on the—I got a copy if you would like to see.

[Assistant] I would love to see it.

[User] I didn't know whether I still had one because back then there was no internet. So this was the finding aid. It was an update and I don't know if you knew Nancy Malan. She was in Washington.

[Assistant] She was my first boss when I moved to Maryland.

[User] She was the lead out of Washington working, I think, with all of the regions on updating your guides.

[Assistant] So how long did this take you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know whether I still had one because back then there was no internet. So this was the finding aid. It was an update and I don't know if you knew Nancy Malan. She was in Washington.

[Assistant] She was my first boss when I moved to Maryland.

[User] She was the lead out of Washington working, I think, with all of the regions on updating your guides.

[Assistant] So how long did this take you?

[User] We were using the old guides. It was basically going through the old guide and checking, you know, do we have additional records? Did we want to change something? Updating the footage. We didn't start from scratch. But if we had new record groups then they had to be added in, and at the time I just helped doing it and Alan ended up sticking my name on it. He didn't ask. I didn't expect it but I thought that was very nice of him. Not everybody would have done that. He said, well, you did most of the work.

[Assistant] Did you have to write finding aids?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was the lead out of Washington working, I think, with all of the regions on updating your guides.

[Assistant] So how long did this take you?

[User] We were using the old guides. It was basically going through the old guide and checking, you know, do we have additional records? Did we want to change something? Updating the footage. We didn't start from scratch. But if we had new record groups then they had to be added in, and at the time I just helped doing it and Alan ended up sticking my name on it. He didn't ask. I didn't expect it but I thought that was very nice of him. Not everybody would have done that. He said, well, you did most of the work.

[Assistant] Did you have to write finding aids?

[User] We had paper finding aids.

[Assistant] Did you have to do new descriptions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were using the old guides. It was basically going through the old guide and checking, you know, do we have additional records? Did we want to change something? Updating the footage. We didn't start from scratch. But if we had new record groups then they had to be added in, and at the time I just helped doing it and Alan ended up sticking my name on it. He didn't ask. I didn't expect it but I thought that was very nice of him. Not everybody would have done that. He said, well, you did most of the work.

[Assistant] Did you have to write finding aids?

[User] We had paper finding aids.

[Assistant] Did you have to do new descriptions?

[User] On some, yes. A lot of it was just rechecking the guide, you know, to have the information that's there. Every region had one.

[Assistant] You mentioned Native American records. Any interesting discoveries that you remember or a particular item?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had paper finding aids.

[Assistant] Did you have to do new descriptions?

[User] On some, yes. A lot of it was just rechecking the guide, you know, to have the information that's there. Every region had one.

[Assistant] You mentioned Native American records. Any interesting discoveries that you remember or a particular item?

[User] The student case files were interesting, out of Haskell, because they went way back. Sometimes you found interesting things. I was trying to think, there was an employee and there were letters back and forth from having been in Russia. There was a Native American who went to work in D.C. and - - anyway. At the time I felt maybe, you know, I never did anything with it. But they were kind of interesting and those came out of the Haskell records because I processed Haskell. The original first one I completely processed and wrote descriptions for. We have the Standing Rock records, at the times of the killing. Some significant events. And the telegram to go bring him in. In fact I carried that telegram home from Washington, D.C. in 2009. It had been loaned out. I was going out there. Alan asked would I pick it up and something else and bring them back. I said sure. So they met me and we signed the paperwork and I thought, oh god. This was after 9/11 and I had to let it go through security. I'm thinking, oh no, when is this going to come out on the other side? And I got back and I said I'm dropping it off.

[Assistant] Were you allowed to—did you have to put it under your seat or did you—was it always near you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On some, yes. A lot of it was just rechecking the guide, you know, to have the information that's there. Every region had one.

[Assistant] You mentioned Native American records. Any interesting discoveries that you remember or a particular item?

[User] The student case files were interesting, out of Haskell, because they went way back. Sometimes you found interesting things. I was trying to think, there was an employee and there were letters back and forth from having been in Russia. There was a Native American who went to work in D.C. and - - anyway. At the time I felt maybe, you know, I never did anything with it. But they were kind of interesting and those came out of the Haskell records because I processed Haskell. The original first one I completely processed and wrote descriptions for. We have the Standing Rock records, at the times of the killing. Some significant events. And the telegram to go bring him in. In fact I carried that telegram home from Washington, D.C. in 2009. It had been loaned out. I was going out there. Alan asked would I pick it up and something else and bring them back. I said sure. So they met me and we signed the paperwork and I thought, oh god. This was after 9/11 and I had to let it go through security. I'm thinking, oh no, when is this going to come out on the other side? And I got back and I said I'm dropping it off.

[Assistant] Were you allowed to—did you have to put it under your seat or did you—was it always near you?

[User] I had to—yeah. It was a folder type thing. I didn't have to stick it above. Nobody knows you got it. They don't know what it is.

[Assistant] Right, right. We're going pretty fast. Please don't let me rush you if you have other things you want to talk about. You were working here during the big move from Bannister?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The student case files were interesting, out of Haskell, because they went way back. Sometimes you found interesting things. I was trying to think, there was an employee and there were letters back and forth from having been in Russia. There was a Native American who went to work in D.C. and - - anyway. At the time I felt maybe, you know, I never did anything with it. But they were kind of interesting and those came out of the Haskell records because I processed Haskell. The original first one I completely processed and wrote descriptions for. We have the Standing Rock records, at the times of the killing. Some significant events. And the telegram to go bring him in. In fact I carried that telegram home from Washington, D.C. in 2009. It had been loaned out. I was going out there. Alan asked would I pick it up and something else and bring them back. I said sure. So they met me and we signed the paperwork and I thought, oh god. This was after 9/11 and I had to let it go through security. I'm thinking, oh no, when is this going to come out on the other side? And I got back and I said I'm dropping it off.

[Assistant] Were you allowed to—did you have to put it under your seat or did you—was it always near you?

[User] I had to—yeah. It was a folder type thing. I didn't have to stick it above. Nobody knows you got it. They don't know what it is.

[Assistant] Right, right. We're going pretty fast. Please don't let me rush you if you have other things you want to talk about. You were working here during the big move from Bannister?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk at all about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to—yeah. It was a folder type thing. I didn't have to stick it above. Nobody knows you got it. They don't know what it is.

[Assistant] Right, right. We're going pretty fast. Please don't let me rush you if you have other things you want to talk about. You were working here during the big move from Bannister?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk at all about that?

[User] I would have to say not only was it an interesting time but it was stressful because we were all—everybody—going through and finding stuff. Either it was forgotten about, we didn't know it was there, or you didn't know where they belonged. I went through a lot of Corps of Engineers old records because when they closed the Army Records Center they moved all that stuff over when the Archives was brand new here, basically without a lot of paperwork. I would go into Reed’s office and ask him. He was here but even he didn’t know. We tried to tie back into the early paperwork, the accessioning files, and find out what they were because we had to do that. We had to, you know, get it.

[Assistant] Do you remember roughly how long it took?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk at all about that?

[User] I would have to say not only was it an interesting time but it was stressful because we were all—everybody—going through and finding stuff. Either it was forgotten about, we didn't know it was there, or you didn't know where they belonged. I went through a lot of Corps of Engineers old records because when they closed the Army Records Center they moved all that stuff over when the Archives was brand new here, basically without a lot of paperwork. I would go into Reed’s office and ask him. He was here but even he didn’t know. We tried to tie back into the early paperwork, the accessioning files, and find out what they were because we had to do that. We had to, you know, get it.

[Assistant] Do you remember roughly how long it took?

[User] I'm trying to think how long it was when we first started. I mean because we had—then we had to move the microfilm. It consumed, basically, months and months of time to get it done from the time that we knew that we were going to move and when they had this building. Then people had to figure out what could come down here, discussions on what did we want down here as opposed to out at Lee's Summit.

[Assistant] So that was my follow-up question. Before Union Station, it was Bannister? And Lee’s Summit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did a lot of prepping. There were people who were paying to have records microfilmed. I also photocopied the Yellowstone records that we have here in the Park Service with another staff person. Yellowstone wanted us to give them the records and we said no, of course. Then they paid to have a photocopy. So we photocopied them all and pulled some. We said, okay we can't obviously photocopy these. Do they want to send them out to have somebody copy them? So we did that and that was during that crazy, nutty time too that went on, just involving getting another position. I kept—so-and-so - - got her promotion. It comes through and then that job opens up and you can—but, you know, things are—and those are things that are agency-wide...and just because of other things, well, it's not good to speak of this, but I almost quit. I really did. They said don't let her win. I said I know. I'm not going to get into the personnel, more of the backstory.

[Assistant] So you started in 1987 as a volunteer. When would you say you were full-time? I know you retired in 2012.

[User] Well, I went part-time I'd say from ‘88. So it would have been, oh, gosh, when did I go full-time? It would have been ninety—do you have a copy of…

[Assistant] You have ‘94 to ‘98 at Grace Cathedral. Do you think ‘94 is when you started here full-time?

[User] It was probably December 1998 I started full-time. Because then I quit the cathedral it would have been the Fall of ‘98. That would be right. All those health issues started crashing down around him.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was difficult. Is there anything else you want to add? Any anecdotes or words of wisdom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went part-time I'd say from ‘88. So it would have been, oh, gosh, when did I go full-time? It would have been ninety—do you have a copy of…

[Assistant] You have ‘94 to ‘98 at Grace Cathedral. Do you think ‘94 is when you started here full-time?

[User] It was probably December 1998 I started full-time. Because then I quit the cathedral it would have been the Fall of ‘98. That would be right. All those health issues started crashing down around him.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was difficult. Is there anything else you want to add? Any anecdotes or words of wisdom?

[User] Oh, I don't have any words of wisdom. It's kind of fun. Usually, practically all—most people you work with as even on reference and stuff—we're very nice. By phone and then eventually mostly everything came in by email. I can remember when the internet was first starting up and I think the first one of those things was MySpace. We were told in no unequivocal terms, nobody should be on MySpace. Nobody. And now it's, like, yeah, Facebook, Twitter. Get it out there.

[Assistant] You're right. There's whole, there's whole groups devoted to social media now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was probably December 1998 I started full-time. Because then I quit the cathedral it would have been the Fall of ‘98. That would be right. All those health issues started crashing down around him.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was difficult. Is there anything else you want to add? Any anecdotes or words of wisdom?

[User] Oh, I don't have any words of wisdom. It's kind of fun. Usually, practically all—most people you work with as even on reference and stuff—we're very nice. By phone and then eventually mostly everything came in by email. I can remember when the internet was first starting up and I think the first one of those things was MySpace. We were told in no unequivocal terms, nobody should be on MySpace. Nobody. And now it's, like, yeah, Facebook, Twitter. Get it out there.

[Assistant] You're right. There's whole, there's whole groups devoted to social media now.

[User] Right. No, there was to be absolute no presence at all. Then all of a sudden it's, like, get on. Can you get on Facebook? Can you get on Twitter? Now, you've got everything everywhere. Ones you don't even know about anymore. That was a funny one.

[Assistant] Oh, I love that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked for Kimberley Clark. I did psychological statistics. I didn't have any psych but I had statistics and my boss was the industrial psychologist.

[Assistant] I would have to think having statistical background would help in an archival background just organizationally or something.

[User] So I like puzzles too.

[Assistant] Maybe your—just your brain is wired that way.

[User] Yeah. It's wired that way. That's why I didn't do English and stuff and then when I married a history professor who was also an archivist, I just sort of, I guess I had been ordained. When I finally went back to work when the kids got old enough and I wasn't running around with tiny children.

[Assistant] But archival work requires a very, like, kind of rigid or specific organization.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I like puzzles too.

[Assistant] Maybe your—just your brain is wired that way.

[User] Yeah. It's wired that way. That's why I didn't do English and stuff and then when I married a history professor who was also an archivist, I just sort of, I guess I had been ordained. When I finally went back to work when the kids got old enough and I wasn't running around with tiny children.

[Assistant] But archival work requires a very, like, kind of rigid or specific organization.

[User] Yeah, I like puzzles and putting things together and that kind of stuff. So I just slid into it by volunteering. Working on large documents and doing some help in various things and I got into it. I stayed around. I finally left—finally decided to retire. You’ll just realize. It’s time. It’s time to go.

[Assistant] If you don't have anything else we can end the interview. I really appreciate your time today. It's been so nice to have you here and to…


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, that's an excellent question. And, you know, my recollection is that I didn't think it probably would be more than five or six years, as I'm recalling.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And that's based on kind of what my impression was of what the work was and what we had to do yet. And the reason they were hiring new staff is there had been, in 1996, a Nixon Tape Settlement Agreement—that is between NARA and the Nixon Estate. President Nixon passed away in 1994, and he had very aggressively fought openings of Nixon White House tapes from the time he resigned as President in 1974 until his death 20 years later, in 1994. You know, by the time President Nixon passed away, only 63 hours of tape were publicly open, and most of that related to—there were the Watergate Trial Tapes and then the Watergate Special Prosecution Force Tapes. Those two bodies of tapes comprised about 63 hours. And in a total body of maybe 3,700 hours of total Nixon White House tapes, that's a pretty small number. And so, you know, after President Nixon passed away in '94, NARA was able to achieve an agreement with the Nixon Estate, the Nixon family and the Nixon lawyers, on a process to open the rest of the Nixon White House tapes with a lot of provisions on what had to be restricted.

[Assistant] Sure, sure.

[User] But yeah. So [that’s an] excellent question, Jennifer, about how long I expected it to be. It turned out to be 10 years. But, you know, the tapes themselves continue to be open. I think 2013 was the last major opening of the final fifth Chron segment.

[Assistant] I'm glad you mentioned Chrons. We'll get back to that, because a number of people who we've interviewed were specific to a Chron or maybe couldn't speak to the creation of Chrons.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's based on kind of what my impression was of what the work was and what we had to do yet. And the reason they were hiring new staff is there had been, in 1996, a Nixon Tape Settlement Agreement—that is between NARA and the Nixon Estate. President Nixon passed away in 1994, and he had very aggressively fought openings of Nixon White House tapes from the time he resigned as President in 1974 until his death 20 years later, in 1994. You know, by the time President Nixon passed away, only 63 hours of tape were publicly open, and most of that related to—there were the Watergate Trial Tapes and then the Watergate Special Prosecution Force Tapes. Those two bodies of tapes comprised about 63 hours. And in a total body of maybe 3,700 hours of total Nixon White House tapes, that's a pretty small number. And so, you know, after President Nixon passed away in '94, NARA was able to achieve an agreement with the Nixon Estate, the Nixon family and the Nixon lawyers, on a process to open the rest of the Nixon White House tapes with a lot of provisions on what had to be restricted.

[Assistant] Sure, sure.

[User] But yeah. So [that’s an] excellent question, Jennifer, about how long I expected it to be. It turned out to be 10 years. But, you know, the tapes themselves continue to be open. I think 2013 was the last major opening of the final fifth Chron segment.

[Assistant] I'm glad you mentioned Chrons. We'll get back to that, because a number of people who we've interviewed were specific to a Chron or maybe couldn't speak to the creation of Chrons.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] So you might want to lead in with that. But I was going to say, can you describe what your role on the Nixon Tapes Project was, the type of work you were doing, and just kind of start from there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And these archivists and the administrators, particularly Karl Weissenbach, the late Karl Weissenbach, were very helpful in smoothing the way for young archivists like myself who could get in and start doing the work and not have to worry so much about being interrupted by court orders or trials of various kinds—trials is not the right word—but court orders to stop us.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] In the early 90s—and I'll probably give you more information than you need—but in the early 90s, I'll just briefly say that Public Citizen, which is a lobby group, and historian Stanley Kutler sued the National Archives basically saying, "Why are you not opening these tapes?" This is before Nixon passes away. And so there's this kind of fierce litigation [in the] early 1980s over this. And I'm simplifying. There's a lot more . . . some that I don't even remember. But anyway, the Public Citizen suit is very important. And it also helps smooth the way because, eventually, Public Citizen sues the Archives and then Nixon countersues, and NARA is stuck in the middle here, you know. Then Nixon passes away. And honestly, that probably does help expedite an agreement which is reached in 1996, the year before I am hired.

[Assistant] Gotcha. Okay.

[User] I'm sorry if I'm giving you too much or not.

[Assistant] No, no. This is great! No, it's a lot to cover. So you come online in 1996–97.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the early 90s—and I'll probably give you more information than you need—but in the early 90s, I'll just briefly say that Public Citizen, which is a lobby group, and historian Stanley Kutler sued the National Archives basically saying, "Why are you not opening these tapes?" This is before Nixon passes away. And so there's this kind of fierce litigation [in the] early 1980s over this. And I'm simplifying. There's a lot more . . . some that I don't even remember. But anyway, the Public Citizen suit is very important. And it also helps smooth the way because, eventually, Public Citizen sues the Archives and then Nixon countersues, and NARA is stuck in the middle here, you know. Then Nixon passes away. And honestly, that probably does help expedite an agreement which is reached in 1996, the year before I am hired.

[Assistant] Gotcha. Okay.

[User] I'm sorry if I'm giving you too much or not.

[Assistant] No, no. This is great! No, it's a lot to cover. So you come online in 1996–97.

[User] '97. Yes. Right. [COUNTER-TALKING] June.

[Assistant] And can you, if you haven't already covered something you want to, can you talk about kind of the process just a single tape would go through. I read that two different archivists would listen to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry if I'm giving you too much or not.

[Assistant] No, no. This is great! No, it's a lot to cover. So you come online in 1996–97.

[User] '97. Yes. Right. [COUNTER-TALKING] June.

[Assistant] And can you, if you haven't already covered something you want to, can you talk about kind of the process just a single tape would go through. I read that two different archivists would listen to it.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And talk a little bit about the process for. . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And talk a little bit about the process for. . . .

[User] Yeah. No, that's great. You know, I was one of several archivists on the team, Jennifer. I can recall an average of maybe, oh, four review archivists at any given time, and that number would fluctuate up and down. Now, I was not involved in the tape's technical aspects directly, although I did work with the technical team on matters such as audio enhancement.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And again, I want to give them a lot of credit, too. Bill Cowell, Jerome Bozeman, to people you probably should talk to if you have a chance to. I emailed those names, I think, to Anna Smallwood. They're still at NARA, and they're both very smart men and very, very, very helpful. They helped make my job a lot easier, too. But, you know, I was involved directly or indirectly with all five Chrons, by the way.

[Assistant] Okay, there were five Chrons.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. No, that's great. You know, I was one of several archivists on the team, Jennifer. I can recall an average of maybe, oh, four review archivists at any given time, and that number would fluctuate up and down. Now, I was not involved in the tape's technical aspects directly, although I did work with the technical team on matters such as audio enhancement.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And again, I want to give them a lot of credit, too. Bill Cowell, Jerome Bozeman, to people you probably should talk to if you have a chance to. I emailed those names, I think, to Anna Smallwood. They're still at NARA, and they're both very smart men and very, very, very helpful. They helped make my job a lot easier, too. But, you know, I was involved directly or indirectly with all five Chrons, by the way.

[Assistant] Okay, there were five Chrons.

[User] There were five. Exactly. And I can give you details on those, too, if you want. But you know, those first four Chrons, I added up [that they were] about 1,527 hours, which was about 41 percent of the total estimate of the total number of Nixon White House tapes that exist. But I was also involved with the fifth Chron review prior to my leaving in 2007. So I reviewed tapes for the fifth Chron, from November and December 1972, and June of 1973. Okay?

[Assistant] So, real quick . . . Chrons means—is that short for chronological, you decided . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And again, I want to give them a lot of credit, too. Bill Cowell, Jerome Bozeman, to people you probably should talk to if you have a chance to. I emailed those names, I think, to Anna Smallwood. They're still at NARA, and they're both very smart men and very, very, very helpful. They helped make my job a lot easier, too. But, you know, I was involved directly or indirectly with all five Chrons, by the way.

[Assistant] Okay, there were five Chrons.

[User] There were five. Exactly. And I can give you details on those, too, if you want. But you know, those first four Chrons, I added up [that they were] about 1,527 hours, which was about 41 percent of the total estimate of the total number of Nixon White House tapes that exist. But I was also involved with the fifth Chron review prior to my leaving in 2007. So I reviewed tapes for the fifth Chron, from November and December 1972, and June of 1973. Okay?

[Assistant] So, real quick . . . Chrons means—is that short for chronological, you decided . . .

[User] I'm sorry.

[Assistant] . . . or the group . . . ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were five. Exactly. And I can give you details on those, too, if you want. But you know, those first four Chrons, I added up [that they were] about 1,527 hours, which was about 41 percent of the total estimate of the total number of Nixon White House tapes that exist. But I was also involved with the fifth Chron review prior to my leaving in 2007. So I reviewed tapes for the fifth Chron, from November and December 1972, and June of 1973. Okay?

[Assistant] So, real quick . . . Chrons means—is that short for chronological, you decided . . .

[User] I'm sorry.

[Assistant] . . . or the group . . . ?

[User] Yes. Correct.

[Assistant] That's okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry.

[Assistant] . . . or the group . . . ?

[User] Yes. Correct.

[Assistant] That's okay. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. Correct. And that was part of the . . .

[Assistant] It was like a systematic organization for the tapes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Correct.

[Assistant] That's okay. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. Correct. And that was part of the . . .

[Assistant] It was like a systematic organization for the tapes?

[User] Exactly. It was supposed to be a scheduled opening and that was per, again, the 1996 Tapes Agreement.

[Assistant] Oh, wow! Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] . . . because of staffing restrictions, staffing limitations. And there was litigation happening, too, during the period I was at Nixon, and it involved two main issues, and that is the so-called original tapes issue—that is the matter of cutting and splicing original Nixon White House tapes. Were those segments going to be physically returned to the Nixon Estate? So the original tapes agreement and then the compensation suit—that is where the Nixon Estate argued that the government had taken private material, the Nixon Papers, and had not given due compensation. And so those were two big cases that, you know, the original tapes agreement and then the compensation suit that did take a lot of our time, too.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And my involvement with that would be to provide, oh, documents that either the Nixon lawyers wanted or the government wanted for the—they were like trials, you know. I remember going down to the federal courthouse in Washington and watching some of this happen. Very interesting stuff. And experts would testify about the monetary value of artifacts as it extended to the gifts. And I believe the total settlement that they settled out of court, I believe, for like $18 million was the total.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I did not know that. So the Nixon Foundation or family argued that the tapes that were—because all these tapes came from different areas of the White House, correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my involvement with that would be to provide, oh, documents that either the Nixon lawyers wanted or the government wanted for the—they were like trials, you know. I remember going down to the federal courthouse in Washington and watching some of this happen. Very interesting stuff. And experts would testify about the monetary value of artifacts as it extended to the gifts. And I believe the total settlement that they settled out of court, I believe, for like $18 million was the total.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I did not know that. So the Nixon Foundation or family argued that the tapes that were—because all these tapes came from different areas of the White House, correct?

[User] Yes. Yes, they were. There are different places where the recording system happened, you know, the Oval Office and the White House telephones and the Camp David recordings to the EOB—the old Executive Office Building.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. That's right. I remember—but all happening during what you would consider, like, President Nixon's business day. But they were just arguing that maybe he would have had a conversation about some personal matter and NARA had . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I did not know that. So the Nixon Foundation or family argued that the tapes that were—because all these tapes came from different areas of the White House, correct?

[User] Yes. Yes, they were. There are different places where the recording system happened, you know, the Oval Office and the White House telephones and the Camp David recordings to the EOB—the old Executive Office Building.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. That's right. I remember—but all happening during what you would consider, like, President Nixon's business day. But they were just arguing that maybe he would have had a conversation about some personal matter and NARA had . . .

[User] Yeah. That's actually . . .

[Assistant] But their argument was that there was personal . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, they were. There are different places where the recording system happened, you know, the Oval Office and the White House telephones and the Camp David recordings to the EOB—the old Executive Office Building.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. That's right. I remember—but all happening during what you would consider, like, President Nixon's business day. But they were just arguing that maybe he would have had a conversation about some personal matter and NARA had . . .

[User] Yeah. That's actually . . .

[Assistant] But their argument was that there was personal . . .

[User] You know, there's actually [CROSS-TALKING] two issues.

[Assistant] Not to confuse it—I just did not realize that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, there's actually [CROSS-TALKING] two issues.

[Assistant] Not to confuse it—I just did not realize that.

[User] There's two issues. The one issue is the monetary value of White House gifts and papers.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure.

[User] And they tried to put a monetary value on everything, because they claim that, well, a President like President Truman donated his papers and artifacts and audiovisual materials, et cetera, to the government. Those were his property. He decided to donate them.

[Assistant]
I see.

Richard Nixon was denied that opportunity to do that. If Truman or another one of the Presidents had wanted to, you know, they could have disposed of them any way they wanted to. He could have sold them, if he wanted to. There's no stipulation you have to donate the collections to the government, to NARA. So, therefore, because the government seized Nixon's materials, Nixon and his family were denied the compensation they were potentially due. That's my understanding.

Sure. No, it makes more sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we technically think, well, you know, should we have—and we're not applying the Privacy Act. It's a special privacy restriction within PRMPA, you know, a clearly unwarranted invasion of privacy, I think is how it went. And many times we opened material because it's Nixon being Nixon. We said that a lot.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because if we closed every time he kind of bad-mouths or criticizes someone, we would be closing a lot. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Sure. Sure.

[User] And so our stipulation was, well, you know, does it deal with—and if the person was still living in the late 1990s or early 2000s, there still were several Nixon administration officials still living. Well, it's a critical comment about a living person. Okay. Does it deal with that person's finances? Yes/no. Does it deal with that person's health or personal habits or lifestyle? Yes/no. Okay. That was another measure of how we determined, you know. So anyway, it got to be . . .

[Assistant] Did you have a mental flowchart or did you have some kind of . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because if we closed every time he kind of bad-mouths or criticizes someone, we would be closing a lot. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Sure. Sure.

[User] And so our stipulation was, well, you know, does it deal with—and if the person was still living in the late 1990s or early 2000s, there still were several Nixon administration officials still living. Well, it's a critical comment about a living person. Okay. Does it deal with that person's finances? Yes/no. Does it deal with that person's health or personal habits or lifestyle? Yes/no. Okay. That was another measure of how we determined, you know. So anyway, it got to be . . .

[Assistant] Did you have a mental flowchart or did you have some kind of . . .

[User] That's a good way to put it.

[Assistant] . . . a kind of legal document to be able to say yes/no? I mean, I just can't imagine, like, the lunchtime conversations dissecting what you just heard that morning or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a good way to put it.

[Assistant] . . . a kind of legal document to be able to say yes/no? I mean, I just can't imagine, like, the lunchtime conversations dissecting what you just heard that morning or something.

[User] Oh yeah, Jennifer. You know, when the segment a couple of months ago was released, Ronald Reagan [was] speaking to Richard Nixon—and Reagan at this point is not President of the United States. He would be a future President of the United States. But he's talking about— he's very upset—and he talks to Nixon on the phone about the behavior of certain African delegates at the United Nations when the vote was to admit Communist China to be the representative of China instead of Taiwan. Taiwan's our ally. Communist China, you know, we had an opening in China. But anyway, Reagan is very upset about the behavior. And I remember hearing that segment and, at the time, we decided to close it. Well, we just opened it a couple of months ago as a result of, I think, a FOIA [Freedom of Information Act request] or a mandatory . . . it had to be a mandatory review request. I remember where it came out in the press, and I remember just smiling, thinking I remember that segment. I remember discussions about it.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And my view at the time was that we should have opened it, even though Ronald Reagan was still living at the time.

[Assistant] Because of the language he used, I think I remember reading about this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, Jennifer. You know, when the segment a couple of months ago was released, Ronald Reagan [was] speaking to Richard Nixon—and Reagan at this point is not President of the United States. He would be a future President of the United States. But he's talking about— he's very upset—and he talks to Nixon on the phone about the behavior of certain African delegates at the United Nations when the vote was to admit Communist China to be the representative of China instead of Taiwan. Taiwan's our ally. Communist China, you know, we had an opening in China. But anyway, Reagan is very upset about the behavior. And I remember hearing that segment and, at the time, we decided to close it. Well, we just opened it a couple of months ago as a result of, I think, a FOIA [Freedom of Information Act request] or a mandatory . . . it had to be a mandatory review request. I remember where it came out in the press, and I remember just smiling, thinking I remember that segment. I remember discussions about it.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And my view at the time was that we should have opened it, even though Ronald Reagan was still living at the time.

[Assistant] Because of the language he used, I think I remember reading about this.

[User] It was kind of racist.

[Assistant] Sure. Right. Very colorful and offensive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my view at the time was that we should have opened it, even though Ronald Reagan was still living at the time.

[Assistant] Because of the language he used, I think I remember reading about this.

[User] It was kind of racist.

[Assistant] Sure. Right. Very colorful and offensive.

[User] Very colorful, derogatory, offensive, but not Privacy, in my view. And I remember talking to colleagues and, I think, maybe a NARA council saying, you know, basically, I think the . . . I should say . . .

[Assistant] Whatever you want.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was kind of racist.

[Assistant] Sure. Right. Very colorful and offensive.

[User] Very colorful, derogatory, offensive, but not Privacy, in my view. And I remember talking to colleagues and, I think, maybe a NARA council saying, you know, basically, I think the . . . I should say . . .

[Assistant] Whatever you want.

[User] Yeah, I think the concern was . . . [CROSS-TALKING].

[Assistant] It definitely paints about what an enormous . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think the concern was . . . [CROSS-TALKING].

[Assistant] It definitely paints about what an enormous . . .

[User] Let's put it this way. I think it was, all right, the agency trying to avoid embarrassment.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But it had nothing to do with the PRMPA. And that's just Sam speaking as an archivist.

[Assistant] Yeah. Right. [CROSS-TALKING] But an enormously difficult task! Yeah!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right. They were not always reliable.

[Assistant] Right. And mishearing words.

[User] That’s exactly it.

[Assistant] I remember . . . yes, that some people might have said the Ambassador is this, so you can't guarantee that it's . . .

[User] Right.

[Assistant] . . . precise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, Jennifer. Exactly. We would rely a lot on Nixon biographies. We used various archival and secondary sources: Nixon biographies; A Facts on File was a good secondary source; the New York Times Index; Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger's memoirs. . . .

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. And then, of course, the main primary sources were the Nixon Papers, which we had right there on site. So we'd use the President's personal files a lot; the President's office files; news summaries; the NSC files—very helpful, the National Security Council files—H. R. Haldeman's diaries; John Ehrlichman's notes; Charles Colson's notes. . . . I mean, a lot would depend on who's in the room, too. . . . H. R. Haldeman was in the room quite a bit as Chief of Staff, and so it would be great to listen to him. And then often he would be, as you're hearing him on the tapes and looking at his handwritten notes of that same meeting, it was really cool because there might be something I'm not hearing quite right. But then I realize, oh, this is the context right here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The documents provide a context for what we're listening to, and it was a very rich source for us.

[Assistant] I bet. I bet. So did you come to recognize voices almost instantly by the time you got in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then, of course, the main primary sources were the Nixon Papers, which we had right there on site. So we'd use the President's personal files a lot; the President's office files; news summaries; the NSC files—very helpful, the National Security Council files—H. R. Haldeman's diaries; John Ehrlichman's notes; Charles Colson's notes. . . . I mean, a lot would depend on who's in the room, too. . . . H. R. Haldeman was in the room quite a bit as Chief of Staff, and so it would be great to listen to him. And then often he would be, as you're hearing him on the tapes and looking at his handwritten notes of that same meeting, it was really cool because there might be something I'm not hearing quite right. But then I realize, oh, this is the context right here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The documents provide a context for what we're listening to, and it was a very rich source for us.

[Assistant] I bet. I bet. So did you come to recognize voices almost instantly by the time you got in?

[User] Yeah. I mean, yes. And, you know, part of the value of these documents is that we could refer to the President's calendar.

[Assistant] Right, and know who was in the room.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's okay. Sorry. I think I'm doing that as well.

[Assistant] So today, if you were a researcher, you could access them at AII and also at the Nixon Library. And then are they available online? Is that what . . . ?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay, so you could essentially access these tapes due to the efforts that the Nixon Tape Staff did over those 10, 12, 15 years?

[User] That's correct. That's correct. They digitized the tapes and put them online. And most of that was done after I left in 2007. NixonLibrary.gov. And there's also a private website. There's probably others, too. Nixontapes.org is another site that has a lot of tapes online. [CROSS-TALKING]

[Assistant] Oh, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay, so you could essentially access these tapes due to the efforts that the Nixon Tape Staff did over those 10, 12, 15 years?

[User] That's correct. That's correct. They digitized the tapes and put them online. And most of that was done after I left in 2007. NixonLibrary.gov. And there's also a private website. There's probably others, too. Nixontapes.org is another site that has a lot of tapes online. [CROSS-TALKING]

[Assistant] Oh, go ahead.

[User] Oh, sorry, Jennifer.

[Assistant] Well, you had written in your article, which was 2007, so right as NARA had gained—I guess the word is—the Nixon Foundation. [The Foundation had] at that point [been in] private custody or private control. But in 2007, it all came under NARA as their way to say . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that's an excellent question. I would say we closed relatively little for Privacy and relatively little for National Security, probably no more than three to five percent.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Okay.

[User] Yeah. The vast majority would be these personal returnables.

[Assistant] And those have slowly been opening up more since even you worked on it.

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say roughly 70 percent.

[Assistant] Wow. So more than the majority for sure. And if we can just back up real quick so I can understand the process. . . . So once the team of NARA, the one-two team of archivists, reviewed the tapes and identified or annotated what should be retained or should be returned, and then it was published in the Federal Register for comment . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The vast majority would be these personal returnables.

[Assistant] And those have slowly been opening up more since even you worked on it.

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say roughly 70 percent.

[Assistant] Wow. So more than the majority for sure. And if we can just back up real quick so I can understand the process. . . . So once the team of NARA, the one-two team of archivists, reviewed the tapes and identified or annotated what should be retained or should be returned, and then it was published in the Federal Register for comment . . .

[User] Right.

[Assistant] . . . what then happened after that [CROSS-TALKING]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say roughly 70 percent.

[Assistant] Wow. So more than the majority for sure. And if we can just back up real quick so I can understand the process. . . . So once the team of NARA, the one-two team of archivists, reviewed the tapes and identified or annotated what should be retained or should be returned, and then it was published in the Federal Register for comment . . .

[User] Right.

[Assistant] . . . what then happened after that [CROSS-TALKING]?

[User] Forty-five days or sixty days. Sorry, Jennifer.

[Assistant] No, no, that's okay. No, that's all right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] . . . what then happened after that [CROSS-TALKING]?

[User] Forty-five days or sixty days. Sorry, Jennifer.

[Assistant] No, no, that's okay. No, that's all right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So there'd be a period of 45 to 60 days for review?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Forty-five days or sixty days. Sorry, Jennifer.

[Assistant] No, no, that's okay. No, that's all right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So there'd be a period of 45 to 60 days for review?

[User] Yes. I'm really glad you mentioned that, because—and I don't want to interrupt you . . .

[Assistant] Sure. No, that's okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So there'd be a period of 45 to 60 days for review?

[User] Yes. I'm really glad you mentioned that, because—and I don't want to interrupt you . . .

[Assistant] Sure. No, that's okay.

[User] . . . because what you're saying is very important. And that is, the other thing we did, there was another sheet of paper [LAUGHS] where we [had] a list of maybe two dozen men and women—they might have all been men at that time . . . I can't remember—but who were former Nixon administration officials, including Henry Kissinger, [who] was on the list. Charles Colson was on the list. Ronald Ziegler was on. . . . Anyway, there were many, many names. Not everybody. But these were people that wanted to be alerted or informed if we were about to open conversations that they were mentioned in, but not participants in. We didn't have to say what the matter was. We would just have to point out what tape number it was.

[Assistant] Flag it for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pro forma. The party that did show an interest in it is the Nixon Estate.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure.

[User] They were pretty aggressive. A very smart fellow, Robert Nedelkoff, a very bright guy, was the onsite reviewer, and we would bring a tape to him and he'd be very quiet, very diligent. He'd work in his own space there, close to where our offices were. And, you know, his day . . . we sat alone. He sat alone, and he would listen. And at the end of the day, we'd get his tape, put it away, and the next day, "Good morning, Robert. How are you?" [LAUGHS] "Fine, Sam. How are you?" You know, nice. Very, very businesslike. Extremely smart. Anyway, it was a friendly relationship.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] The other thing I did—and I know we're running out of time here, Jennifer—but I want to emphasize some of the other . . .

[Assistant] Yes, please do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm not trying to defend the things he did, but in a different time and place, men like—and they were men—him and H. R. Haldeman, particularly very gifted, and John Dean, very smart . . . you think, a different time and place and with better judgment, frankly . . .

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] . . . what they might have accomplished. And I don't mean to make that sound like I'm being judgmental, but it's just the facts. Anyway, I think that it was very satisfying work. And what's satisfying to me is when I see books that come out and reference [the tapes], you know: John Dean's book about William Rehnquist, The Rehnquist Choice—really good book. And he uses the tapes, Dean, himself. And in Kissinger's book and in numerous literature that's come out—and I admit I've not followed it as closely as I used to since I'm in the Truman world.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Yeah.

[User] And it came full circle in 2007. I had come back to the Presidential Library. It's a homecoming for me. I'm a supervisory archivist, as I am to this day.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, to me, an irony that the tapes, that [President Nixon] wanted to record these conversations more for posterity, for him to write—I was reading in your memoir—but they also became wrapped up in this period of the Presidential Records Act being a necessary piece of legislation because that very President wanted to control what it was. I'm fascinated by this period.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] . . . what they might have accomplished. And I don't mean to make that sound like I'm being judgmental, but it's just the facts. Anyway, I think that it was very satisfying work. And what's satisfying to me is when I see books that come out and reference [the tapes], you know: John Dean's book about William Rehnquist, The Rehnquist Choice—really good book. And he uses the tapes, Dean, himself. And in Kissinger's book and in numerous literature that's come out—and I admit I've not followed it as closely as I used to since I'm in the Truman world.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Yeah.

[User] And it came full circle in 2007. I had come back to the Presidential Library. It's a homecoming for me. I'm a supervisory archivist, as I am to this day.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, to me, an irony that the tapes, that [President Nixon] wanted to record these conversations more for posterity, for him to write—I was reading in your memoir—but they also became wrapped up in this period of the Presidential Records Act being a necessary piece of legislation because that very President wanted to control what it was. I'm fascinated by this period.

[User] Yes, that's a very good point.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you want to cover before we finish the interview today? I can't imagine capturing everything in an hour, but . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's a very good point.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you want to cover before we finish the interview today? I can't imagine capturing everything in an hour, but . . .

[User] No, it's fine. We talked about the difficulties that I had faced. I mean, the audibility and kind of the free-flowing nature of the discussions was a challenge.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it might take an entire workday to review one hour of tape, okay? And you might have to listen to the same segment over and over again. Sorry, I'm referring to my notes a little bit.

[Assistant] No, that's fine. I know I had written down the eight hours, because they literally would activate when a voice was heard. Correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's fine. We talked about the difficulties that I had faced. I mean, the audibility and kind of the free-flowing nature of the discussions was a challenge.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it might take an entire workday to review one hour of tape, okay? And you might have to listen to the same segment over and over again. Sorry, I'm referring to my notes a little bit.

[Assistant] No, that's fine. I know I had written down the eight hours, because they literally would activate when a voice was heard. Correct?

[User] That's actually noise, any noise.

[Assistant] Any noise. So you could have completely random . . . ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's nice! It's nice. So, anyway, thank you for talking to me.

[Assistant] Yeah! Thank you very much!

[User] Was there anything else you wanted to cover?

[Assistant] I don't think so. I think it's wonderful to have gotten time with you today.

[User] Well, thank you, Jennifer!

[Assistant] This is such an incredible project! Even for someone who has heard about him for years, I didn't quite appreciate the magnitude of review and things, so I do appreciate your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was there anything else you wanted to cover?

[Assistant] I don't think so. I think it's wonderful to have gotten time with you today.

[User] Well, thank you, Jennifer!

[Assistant] This is such an incredible project! Even for someone who has heard about him for years, I didn't quite appreciate the magnitude of review and things, so I do appreciate your time.

[User] Oh, you're welcome!

[Assistant] This will be hugely helpful for the oral history project as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my older brother is four years older and he was a volunteer in Venezuela. So I think that's what sparked my interest. And I have, between my junior and senior year of college, I got a phone call and a letter that I got accepted to a program in Nigeria after graduation, but I declined that. But then during my senior year college, there was a recruiting table at the student union center with a poster of a couple on a motorcycle, I think, with a picture from National Geographic. I just went up to the table and I said, take me, I'm yours. Meaning I had already been accepted into the Peace Corps and wasn’t having success finding teaching positions. I was limiting myself to the Bay Area. Anyway, so I went up and I said, I'm yours. They got my name and I left my files. And soon I was getting ready to go to Key West.

[Assistant] So, say a few words about your family, where you went to college, what you majored in.

[User] I grew up in Seattle, Washington, I went to the Washington State University over in Pullman. Majored in education. Had one brother that was four years older. And I always wanted to be a teacher, so that was my education major, so I knew that would fit in well for what Peace Corps has planned for me. Even though my brother has gone to Venezuela and did two years as Peace Corps. My family was not thrilled and was very against it. My father, I don’t think he was worried about my safety or whatever. But what I didn’t realize then was that he was prejudiced against brown skinned people and didn’t like the whole idea of coming out here as a way to continue my education. But I was adamant that this is what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] So, your brother was supportive?

[User] Yes, actually, he met a woman in Venezuela and came back to Seattle for a visit before returning to Venezuela, where he was living. So he was able to stop the Miami during my training period and we saw each other.

[Assistant] And you were part of the famous Micronesia I training group. So, what can you say about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Seattle, Washington, I went to the Washington State University over in Pullman. Majored in education. Had one brother that was four years older. And I always wanted to be a teacher, so that was my education major, so I knew that would fit in well for what Peace Corps has planned for me. Even though my brother has gone to Venezuela and did two years as Peace Corps. My family was not thrilled and was very against it. My father, I don’t think he was worried about my safety or whatever. But what I didn’t realize then was that he was prejudiced against brown skinned people and didn’t like the whole idea of coming out here as a way to continue my education. But I was adamant that this is what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] So, your brother was supportive?

[User] Yes, actually, he met a woman in Venezuela and came back to Seattle for a visit before returning to Venezuela, where he was living. So he was able to stop the Miami during my training period and we saw each other.

[Assistant] And you were part of the famous Micronesia I training group. So, what can you say about that?

[User] Well, we were so many. They were deselected left and right throughout the training period. But they said that, you know, just getting anybody basically right out of college for this Micro I program. At the Marina Hotel in Key West, Florida. All of the Micronesian volunteers were together in the hotel. But we also with our own groups and we had our own rotating schedules, and we didn't really have much opportunity to talk about the other Micronesia volunteers. I remember very painfully the language tests that they gave us.

[Assistant] Who was your language trainers?