[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they just told me what they were doing. If you hire good people and you delegate jobs to them, then unless they come and say, “I need help,” it’s best not to micromanage how they do their job. Doc repeatedly informed me that RocketplaneKistler wasn’t making milestones and that if they kept going in that fashion, he was going to have to terminate them. My response was “Okay, then terminate them and take the money. We’ll use it to do another competition and we’ll select another company.”

[Assistant]
Thank you very much. That was all for my side of things.

We don’t want to take up all your morning. Do you have any more thoughts that you want to offer at this point, or any other recollections of that time period?

[User] No, I’m just trying to respond to your questions. If you’ve got more, I’ll answer them.

[Assistant] I think part of what we wanted to definitely get in your words was your thoughts of when you started this effort.

[User] I walked into the Agency with this as one of my goals. As you said, I wrote them down. I presented them in my confirmation hearing on the 12th of April [2005]. I announced what my goals were in my confirmation hearing. I would have been foolish to announce goals that I had not previously cleared with the Bush administration. That would be silly.\n\n I worked for the President; I would not be allowed to have goals of which the President didn’t approve, so I had vetted these statements first with the executive office of the President, meaning OSTP [Office of Science and Technology Policy] and OMB [Office of Management and Budget] and the National Security Council. I had pre-vetted the half-dozen goals that I had with the administration. They were fine with them, and so I announced them at my confirmation hearing. When I got to the Agency, I set to work on those goals. Not just COTS, all the others as well.

[Assistant] It was almost as if this was under the radar at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Turned out well. Turned out very well. I wouldn't change a minute of it, not a minute.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] But they were big decisions at the time, and difficult ones. Strangely enough, Bob [Robert C.] Seamans [Jr.], who was the deputy administrator of NASA, with Jim Webb, Bob became Secretary of the Air Force later. I was in Washington [DC] as the Director of Life Sciences for NASA, and he was the Secretary of the Air Force. We talked all the time. If I'd had had any sense then, if I'd had time to think about what was going on at that time, I would have worked out some deal with them to where I would have gotten credit for NASA time some way from a reserve standpoint, and I'm sure we could have worked that out. I've talked with—in fact, I just had a meeting up in Boston [Massachusetts] a few months ago and was talking to Bob Seamans. He said, "You know, that was really crazy. We should have done something about that." I said, "Yeah, we probably should have." [Laughter]

[Assistant] Hindsight's always 20-20.

[User] But hindsight is great, yes. It didn't, and it doesn't matter really now. It would have made a difference money-wise, retirement-wise, and a lot of things like that, but that's gone, so there's no point in talking about it.

[Assistant] Going back, I know it's been covered in some detail, the selection process of the original astronauts, but if you could share with us some of your thoughts at the time about what you were selecting these men to do and how you could even test them, since nobody had done it before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The crew has done as well or better, and survived in spite of the hardware. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So it was an interesting discussion. I like to say that from an engineering point of view, they really did have the capability to do that, and they were able to get a .999. I think that's wonderful, but that's an expensive thing to do for a program, but it's an important thing to do.\n\n When we were doing medical experiments, we had difficulties, too, because they wanted everything that we had aboard the spacecraft, wanted space-qualified. Now, if every piece of hardware that you put on there, sure, you can't just take a stethoscope, if you really lived by that rule, and that makes things—the minute you say something's going to be space-qualified, then a lot of money is going to go to a lot of contractors to say, yes, this piece is space-qualified to go on there. So that makes the experiments really expensive. So there had been a big move, and I think a lot of things now are done that aren't "space-qualified," and I think that's very sensible to do.

[Assistant] Got to have that balance.

[User] That's right. Exactly. Price yourself out of business is what you do. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We've talked a couple of times now, you've mentioned Deke Slayton, and you started to talk earlier about how you and he snuck in through the back way when he did start having his difficulty in Mercury. As you tried to help him through that, of course we know the outcome and that he, unfortunately, did have to be grounded for a while, then eventually did get to fly. But as you helped him through that, how was that for you, working with him and trying to work the situation out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Absolutely. And he didn't fibrillate anymore, either, and we still don't know why. I still do not know why. It's idiopathic, which just means we don't know why, we don't know the cause. We could not find any cause. All the common causes of fibrillation we had chased down a long time before. He didn't have any thyroid disease. It wasn't from smoking. It wasn't from alcohol. It wasn't from any of the things that you could possibly find.

[Assistant] Shows how complex the human body is.

[User] The human body is a very complex mechanism, it really is. Definitely.

[Assistant] You mentioned Al Shepard a couple of times as we were talking about Deke Slayton, how it was a similar situation but was a shorter time span, I guess.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Are there any future comments you wanted to make about him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, “back to the future” thing. Certainly depending on who you ask it was something good or it wasn’t something good. I won’t express a view there, because I’m still somewhat associated with the Agency. But I think that I’ll just say that there are a variety of views on the efficacy of a National Space Council.

[Assistant] I thought it was interesting, too, this past April the Senator [R. E. “Ted” Cruz] from our state brought up the possibility of looking at the 50-year-old [Outer] Space Treaty to bring it up to date. When looking at the policy that you had worked on for the National Space Policy in 2010 under President Obama, one of the principles states: “It’s established in international law there shall be no national claims of sovereignty over outer space and any celestial bodies.” When I was reading about what Senator Cruz was bringing up, people were speculating that—and it’s all speculation at this point, I guess—but there are groups that want to have sovereignty over celestial bodies.

[User] Sovereignty or property rights.

[Assistant] Right, property rights so that they can mine and get the resources from it. I just thought it was interesting that that’s specifically in the Space Policy.

[User] If you take a look at the preceding space policies, you’ll see that in there as well.

[Assistant] Yes. It’s almost like that wording would have to be changed quite a bit, if they really do go back and redo that treaty that’s been in place for 50 years to keep the peaceful uses of outer space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe Robert, who knows?

[Assistant] You never know. I thought maybe I would close out by asking you—and you don’t have to give a long involved answer, obviously, because we don’t have a lot of time—but throughout your career with NASA, what was your most challenging time?

[User] Oh, boy. That is a really hard question.

[Assistant] If that one is a little difficult, maybe turn it and say what are you most proud of? It may be the same thing, sometimes it is.

[User] I guess the Export Control Program and its success is something I’m very proud of. While I was not the first leader of it, it only came into existence when I came to NASA. Bob [Robert] Tucker and I made it happen, and it grew to be—when I say grew, it doesn’t mean expanded people as much as it expanded its influence and the ability to keep us out of trouble and to be good stewards of the nation’s advanced technologies.\n\n It’s well respected by the interagency community, by the regulatory community. The Departments of State and Commerce and Defense recognize and applaud our success in the Export Control Program. I’m certainly proud of that.\n\n I think probably some of the Space Policy work. There were a number of legal things that I thought were good achievements, contributions to the International Space Station Intergovernmental Agreement that we had talked about the last time and certain things like that. The duty-free entry regulation that we talked about the last time, that’s a huge victory actually. I should probably list that as number one because ain’t nobody else got that. It took a lot of work, but it has paid off for sure.\n\n I’m trying to think what was most difficult. Most difficult day was leaving. There were lots and lots of difficult days, I’m not saying that there weren’t, but the hardest day was the day I walked out of here.

[Assistant] I can imagine if you love your job and you love the people you’re working with and have a respect for them, it is difficult to walk away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started in 1987 but all of those conversations took place in 1986.

[Assistant] And then what was your impression of the National Archives when you came here?

[User] Well, I had an interview with Trudy Peterson [then head of the Office of the National Archives], and Bill Cunliffe [then director of the Special Archives Division], in Trudy’s office which had a nice big Wang computer [terminal]. They sold me on being part of the rebuilding of the machine- readable branch. When I arrived and was assigned to my office on the 21st floor, or 21st stack level, I had a wooden desk that didn’t have any drawers and I was given an old upright typewriter as my personal piece of equipment. I was coming from Kentucky, right? So [think of] all of your stereotypes, but I had had my own PC for several years. There was an IBM plant in Kentucky, and they made sure the university was well supplied. And to be given a manual typewriter as my personal piece of equipment to help rebuild the machine-readable records program was quite a shock. And what I got introduced to was how under-resourced the National Archives really was. And that comes out in the articles of some of my colleagues in the 30 years book: how under-resourced NARA was. And so that was a major shock.

[Assistant] So, what was your first order of business then if you’re sitting there with a typewriter trying to—

[User] [Interposing] I wrote a memo. [Laughing]

[Assistant] What did your memo say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had an interview with Trudy Peterson [then head of the Office of the National Archives], and Bill Cunliffe [then director of the Special Archives Division], in Trudy’s office which had a nice big Wang computer [terminal]. They sold me on being part of the rebuilding of the machine- readable branch. When I arrived and was assigned to my office on the 21st floor, or 21st stack level, I had a wooden desk that didn’t have any drawers and I was given an old upright typewriter as my personal piece of equipment. I was coming from Kentucky, right? So [think of] all of your stereotypes, but I had had my own PC for several years. There was an IBM plant in Kentucky, and they made sure the university was well supplied. And to be given a manual typewriter as my personal piece of equipment to help rebuild the machine-readable records program was quite a shock. And what I got introduced to was how under-resourced the National Archives really was. And that comes out in the articles of some of my colleagues in the 30 years book: how under-resourced NARA was. And so that was a major shock.

[Assistant] So, what was your first order of business then if you’re sitting there with a typewriter trying to—

[User] [Interposing] I wrote a memo. [Laughing]

[Assistant] What did your memo say?

[User] Something to the effect that I don’t believe this.

[Assistant] Give me a computer [laughing].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] I wrote a memo. [Laughing]

[Assistant] What did your memo say?

[User] Something to the effect that I don’t believe this.

[Assistant] Give me a computer [laughing].

[User] I don't believe that I'm expected to help rebuild the machine-readable records program and have as my personal equipment a manual typewriter. There was a dial up computer [terminal]. It was a DECwriter, which accessed the [mainframe] computer at the NIH which the staff commonly used. [The NIH computer center was then a data center for several federal agencies.] Then there was also a Wang system [terminal], like I had seen in Trudy’s office. I therefore had been blindsided to the fact that this [equipment was only] in a few offices including in the machine-readable records branch. There was one [NCR terminal] and it was only used there, well, it was primarily used there, for accounting purposes for the Trust Fund’s system for handling reproductions of records and the cost recovery for that. So effectively the staff did not have equipment and the staff at that point, as part of the rebuilding, was being trained in using this DECwriter to communicate with the NIH computer and was learning to do some forms of programming that were then sort of the default processes at the NIH Computing Center, which [the branch] was using for our data services. [All of this was reminiscent of my 1960s experiences at DPLS, but this was 1987, at the U.S. National Archives.]

[Assistant] And who were your colleagues when you first started at the machine-readable branch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would be a veteran calling and saying I need—among other things—I need to document that I was exposed to a stressing event and the buddies that I served with died. Can I have their casualty records? So, we would be working with them to try and pinpoint sufficient information to try and get down—

[Assistant] [Interposing] And you would actually go find—

[User] [Interposing] Right.

[Assistant] They couldn’t access the—

[User] [Interposing] They couldn’t directly access. We had full printouts of those records and one practice that the Department of Defense had started even before they transferred the records to the National Archives, was to create state lists of casualties which are extracts from the whole database which organized casualties by their state of home of record. Those were very much in demand for memorializing purposes. In addition to the individual veterans who were seeking records of buddies in order to document their post-traumatic or their stressing event, you had all of the people trying to memorialize. And that was also during the period where there was a lot of emphasis on the people who were at that point still considered to be missing or prisoners, well, not prisoners of war but missing in action—which really were the people whose bodies had never been recovered.

[Assistant] Can you talk about as time progressed and your career with the archives, the kinds of things you were involved in and how your career changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I mean, there’s just no staff to do that.

[Assistant] Right. And about how big was the staff?

[User] Well, when I started out, I was doing that work and there was, I said Mario Lopez-Gomez who was handling all of the reproductions of records and all the sort of building the databases and helped us increase the Title List and so forth. And then we had a technician and then we hired another technician not too long later. And then gradually a professional. But it never was more than three or four people. And even now [2018] the reference staff, electronic records, is only, I would say five or six people. But a lot more material is available online now.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But like with anything technological, you evolve and you provide new services and those new services generate demand for even more services. So, but still very understaffed. And it was an era when machine-readable records, or electronic records as they became, as their next identity, for all intents and purposes still meant digital data. The whole business of all of the office automation records and email, and all the rest of that didn’t come until later.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, I was going to ask, how did the advent of the Internet change your work processes or was it something that came like much later? Because agencies weren’t transferring their emails until—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But like with anything technological, you evolve and you provide new services and those new services generate demand for even more services. So, but still very understaffed. And it was an era when machine-readable records, or electronic records as they became, as their next identity, for all intents and purposes still meant digital data. The whole business of all of the office automation records and email, and all the rest of that didn’t come until later.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, I was going to ask, how did the advent of the Internet change your work processes or was it something that came like much later? Because agencies weren’t transferring their emails until—

[User] [Interposing] I don’t understand that.

[Assistant] Yeah, exactly.

[User] I mean, I am removed from the program for the last five years, [so my comments don't reflect recent developments]. But the focus on email of course came with the White House email. I would say it was a slower evolution, when it, I mean, we had BitNet before we had the Internet and BitNet was just in universities and government agencies. But that provided a mechanism for people to get information and having FTP, file transfer protocol, meant that people could download like the Title List and so forth. So, at each stage, technology enhanced the services that could be provided, and we tried to keep up as much as we could, or that resources, etc. [allowed]. But we had a presence on the "web" in a sense before the push of the Internet.

[Assistant] In like the early 90s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] I don’t understand that.

[Assistant] Yeah, exactly.

[User] I mean, I am removed from the program for the last five years, [so my comments don't reflect recent developments]. But the focus on email of course came with the White House email. I would say it was a slower evolution, when it, I mean, we had BitNet before we had the Internet and BitNet was just in universities and government agencies. But that provided a mechanism for people to get information and having FTP, file transfer protocol, meant that people could download like the Title List and so forth. So, at each stage, technology enhanced the services that could be provided, and we tried to keep up as much as we could, or that resources, etc. [allowed]. But we had a presence on the "web" in a sense before the push of the Internet.

[Assistant] In like the early 90s?

[User] Mm-hm, mm-hm. Right. And unfortunately, [beginning in 1993], the PROFS case ate up most of NARA’s resources for electronic records, handling the demands of that litigation. So, although the branch, by then it was the Center for Electronic Records, had developed a computerized capability to validate the data files that agencies were transferring, which created metadata which, the intent from the very beginning was that that metadata could be used to make records available and assist researchers. Because of the PROFS case, all development on that ceased until the PROFS case was basically done with and so we had a long period — and that’s covered in the 30 years book. We were doing what we could to continue, I mean, the reference program was pretty isolated from the PROFS case—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Okay, I was wondering if you were involved at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm-hm, mm-hm. Right. And unfortunately, [beginning in 1993], the PROFS case ate up most of NARA’s resources for electronic records, handling the demands of that litigation. So, although the branch, by then it was the Center for Electronic Records, had developed a computerized capability to validate the data files that agencies were transferring, which created metadata which, the intent from the very beginning was that that metadata could be used to make records available and assist researchers. Because of the PROFS case, all development on that ceased until the PROFS case was basically done with and so we had a long period — and that’s covered in the 30 years book. We were doing what we could to continue, I mean, the reference program was pretty isolated from the PROFS case—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Okay, I was wondering if you were involved at all.

[User] No, not directly, no. And Ken Thibodeau, [the Center director], was very prescient in doing that so that the [archival electronic records] program could at least still survive. I mean it was certainly being taxed very heavily to have so much of its resources handling that case. But what we could do didn't involve a sort of building on what had gone before with the intention of it affecting reference and access until the late 1990s, which is when NARA was finally in a position to let the contract that led to the development of the Access to Archival Databases.

[Assistant] The AAD.

[User] Which is still up.

[Assistant] I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the development of the AAD and your role in that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not directly, no. And Ken Thibodeau, [the Center director], was very prescient in doing that so that the [archival electronic records] program could at least still survive. I mean it was certainly being taxed very heavily to have so much of its resources handling that case. But what we could do didn't involve a sort of building on what had gone before with the intention of it affecting reference and access until the late 1990s, which is when NARA was finally in a position to let the contract that led to the development of the Access to Archival Databases.

[Assistant] The AAD.

[User] Which is still up.

[Assistant] I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the development of the AAD and your role in that.

[User] Well, I was very directly involved in that. We worked with contractors, using the metadata that is produced as a result of processing to then develop a capability for a selection of the holdings, those which really lend themselves to individual record level access to be available for search and retrieval on an individual record level. So those would be records that identify specific persons, places, institutions. A large proportion of the holdings which are research files that agencies produce are not appropriate for record level access. So AAD only deals with files that are appropriate for record level access and we use the metadata from the processing to then have the metadata that could be displayed as the codes and values for the data that is record level accessible, and that’s where AAD shines. And I’d like to see it get some expansion.

[Assistant] For those who are listening who don’t really know about AAD, could you kind of describe a little bit about what kind of researcher would use that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was. The unit itself changed to many different identities but yes. That’s what I came to the Archives to do. That’s what, I mean, I had had this opportunity that was really very unique and, you know, my work with the University of Wisconsin and then at Kentucky doesn’t fit any kind of real career path nor, even now, is there really training for that kind of career path. So, I very deliberately was coming to the National Archives to be a part of what was then called the machine-readable branch and which now is the electronic records division.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, did the Archives offer additional training opportunities for you?

[User] Well, yes. I took a bunch of courses at NIH, well, so it was NIH, I mean the government sponsored them. But that's primarily what I did. And then of course from time to time there would be a variety of management courses and that kind of thing. [I also had immersed myself in archival literature when I was working on that NHPRC-sponsored project for the Kentucky State Archives. I also had opportunities throughout my career for the kind of training that comes from participating in professional associations and meetings, and NARA was very supportive in this regard. I published a number of articles and also taught some workshops, and you always learn a lot through that kind of activity. And, I had an opportunity for a several month detail at OMB, which was highly informative].

[Assistant] And did the change in the Archivist and Acting Archivist and the new Archivist change your work at all? Did they implement any changes or ask you to make changes or did you basically have a constant mission the entire time and didn’t really deviate—

[User] [Interposing] Me personally?

[Assistant] Well, I guess you personally and then also the machine-readable/electronic records programs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I couldn’t put a date on that. There was a point at which—and the [electronic records] reference staff moved down to the 18th tier. I mean, obviously it’s not—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yeah, where you [were] originally?

[User] On the 20th or 21st tier, I’m not sure. The machine-readable branch was on 20 and then there were a few people who had offices up on 21; that’s just a stack entry. And then there was a biggish room on 18 which was opened up for the reference staff of machine-readable. And I know we were in there when we got the PCs but I couldn’t tell you for sure when we moved down there. But we moved out to College Park in the 1990s, let’s see. Clinton was elected in...?

[Assistant] ‘92.

[User] 1992. So, the PROFS case began in—so he became President in ‘93 and that’s when all hell broke loose in 1993. So, my guess is it must have been 1994 that the machine-readable branch, by then the Center for Electronic Records, moved to College Park. Before that there had also been expansion when Ken Thibodeau came on as director of the Center. His office was down on the 5th or 6th tier, someplace else.

[Assistant] And it doesn’t exist probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the 20th or 21st tier, I’m not sure. The machine-readable branch was on 20 and then there were a few people who had offices up on 21; that’s just a stack entry. And then there was a biggish room on 18 which was opened up for the reference staff of machine-readable. And I know we were in there when we got the PCs but I couldn’t tell you for sure when we moved down there. But we moved out to College Park in the 1990s, let’s see. Clinton was elected in...?

[Assistant] ‘92.

[User] 1992. So, the PROFS case began in—so he became President in ‘93 and that’s when all hell broke loose in 1993. So, my guess is it must have been 1994 that the machine-readable branch, by then the Center for Electronic Records, moved to College Park. Before that there had also been expansion when Ken Thibodeau came on as director of the Center. His office was down on the 5th or 6th tier, someplace else.

[Assistant] And it doesn’t exist probably.

[User] No. I’m sure none of this exists anymore. But all of this was better than the stories I always heard from the folks who were—see Trudy Peterson’s article in the 30 years book—when they were down on 14th Street in some offices on 14th Street when 14th Street was not where anybody wanted to be.

[Assistant] So, then you moved to College Park in 1994.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1992. So, the PROFS case began in—so he became President in ‘93 and that’s when all hell broke loose in 1993. So, my guess is it must have been 1994 that the machine-readable branch, by then the Center for Electronic Records, moved to College Park. Before that there had also been expansion when Ken Thibodeau came on as director of the Center. His office was down on the 5th or 6th tier, someplace else.

[Assistant] And it doesn’t exist probably.

[User] No. I’m sure none of this exists anymore. But all of this was better than the stories I always heard from the folks who were—see Trudy Peterson’s article in the 30 years book—when they were down on 14th Street in some offices on 14th Street when 14th Street was not where anybody wanted to be.

[Assistant] So, then you moved to College Park in 1994.

[User] And so it was sometime before that that we got computers. Probably at least two years before that so it—but I mean it was a goodly while, I mean, we got pretty adept at using the Wang and there was also the NCR machine for the Trust Fund. and Wang to do a little bit of word-processing. And then the DECwriter interactive terminal, typing terminals. That’s what we used for interaction with NIH and the maintenance of the Title List such as it was that we had then.

[Assistant] So, when you moved to College Park, were you provided new equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I’m sure none of this exists anymore. But all of this was better than the stories I always heard from the folks who were—see Trudy Peterson’s article in the 30 years book—when they were down on 14th Street in some offices on 14th Street when 14th Street was not where anybody wanted to be.

[Assistant] So, then you moved to College Park in 1994.

[User] And so it was sometime before that that we got computers. Probably at least two years before that so it—but I mean it was a goodly while, I mean, we got pretty adept at using the Wang and there was also the NCR machine for the Trust Fund. and Wang to do a little bit of word-processing. And then the DECwriter interactive terminal, typing terminals. That’s what we used for interaction with NIH and the maintenance of the Title List such as it was that we had then.

[Assistant] So, when you moved to College Park, were you provided new equipment?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And how did things change with that move?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so it was sometime before that that we got computers. Probably at least two years before that so it—but I mean it was a goodly while, I mean, we got pretty adept at using the Wang and there was also the NCR machine for the Trust Fund. and Wang to do a little bit of word-processing. And then the DECwriter interactive terminal, typing terminals. That’s what we used for interaction with NIH and the maintenance of the Title List such as it was that we had then.

[Assistant] So, when you moved to College Park, were you provided new equipment?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And how did things change with that move?

[User] I don’t think a whole lot (as we continued to use BitNet and were already using office automation]. But, you know, you forget an awful lot. It’s like with any kind of pain [laughing], you forget it. I mean, compared to the facility, the kind of physical environment, it was really nice being downtown but the physical environment was really lacking. And those of us on the 18th tier actually had nice digs. So many of our colleagues in the then-expanded Center for Electronic Records, were in space that was just unbelievable. So, it was very positive change that way.

[Assistant] And you were all brought together into one office space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And how did things change with that move?

[User] I don’t think a whole lot (as we continued to use BitNet and were already using office automation]. But, you know, you forget an awful lot. It’s like with any kind of pain [laughing], you forget it. I mean, compared to the facility, the kind of physical environment, it was really nice being downtown but the physical environment was really lacking. And those of us on the 18th tier actually had nice digs. So many of our colleagues in the then-expanded Center for Electronic Records, were in space that was just unbelievable. So, it was very positive change that way.

[Assistant] And you were all brought together into one office space?

[User] One—yes, yes, one large office space. Well, two large office spaces but they were just across the corridor from each other.

[Assistant] Were they on the sixth floor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think a whole lot (as we continued to use BitNet and were already using office automation]. But, you know, you forget an awful lot. It’s like with any kind of pain [laughing], you forget it. I mean, compared to the facility, the kind of physical environment, it was really nice being downtown but the physical environment was really lacking. And those of us on the 18th tier actually had nice digs. So many of our colleagues in the then-expanded Center for Electronic Records, were in space that was just unbelievable. So, it was very positive change that way.

[Assistant] And you were all brought together into one office space?

[User] One—yes, yes, one large office space. Well, two large office spaces but they were just across the corridor from each other.

[Assistant] Were they on the sixth floor?

[User] Fifth. And then at some point we also moved down to the fourth floor.

[Assistant] Okay. And then you continued to work in reference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One—yes, yes, one large office space. Well, two large office spaces but they were just across the corridor from each other.

[Assistant] Were they on the sixth floor?

[User] Fifth. And then at some point we also moved down to the fourth floor.

[Assistant] Okay. And then you continued to work in reference.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] While you were—well, I guess your whole career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fifth. And then at some point we also moved down to the fourth floor.

[Assistant] Okay. And then you continued to work in reference.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] While you were—well, I guess your whole career?

[User] Right. And after Tom Brown retired as the head of the Archival Services branch of the Center, I took his responsibilities and eventually was hired into that position. So, for the last six years or so of my career, I was managing the Archival Services program more generally, but up until that point I was doing the reference part of it [although I also had other responsibilities like the review of records schedules and appraisals].

[Assistant] And did you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] While you were—well, I guess your whole career?

[User] Right. And after Tom Brown retired as the head of the Archival Services branch of the Center, I took his responsibilities and eventually was hired into that position. So, for the last six years or so of my career, I was managing the Archival Services program more generally, but up until that point I was doing the reference part of it [although I also had other responsibilities like the review of records schedules and appraisals].

[Assistant] And did you—

[User] [Interposing] I [had been] assistant branch chief [since shortly before we moved to College Park] and my primary responsibility was the reference program until I became the chief of archival services.

[Assistant] And how did you enjoy that, being the branch chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And after Tom Brown retired as the head of the Archival Services branch of the Center, I took his responsibilities and eventually was hired into that position. So, for the last six years or so of my career, I was managing the Archival Services program more generally, but up until that point I was doing the reference part of it [although I also had other responsibilities like the review of records schedules and appraisals].

[Assistant] And did you—

[User] [Interposing] I [had been] assistant branch chief [since shortly before we moved to College Park] and my primary responsibility was the reference program until I became the chief of archival services.

[Assistant] And how did you enjoy that, being the branch chief?

[User] Well, it was just a lot more work, with, you know, that kind of thing is always an opportunity to try out things that you thought about for some time. But I had worked very closely with Tom for about a decade so it was not that much of a change really. Except that I had a larger workload.

[Assistant] What other sorts of projects did you work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] I [had been] assistant branch chief [since shortly before we moved to College Park] and my primary responsibility was the reference program until I became the chief of archival services.

[Assistant] And how did you enjoy that, being the branch chief?

[User] Well, it was just a lot more work, with, you know, that kind of thing is always an opportunity to try out things that you thought about for some time. But I had worked very closely with Tom for about a decade so it was not that much of a change really. Except that I had a larger workload.

[Assistant] What other sorts of projects did you work on?

[User] I mean, all the various developments to make known the holdings, which as I said started out as the Title List and then that graduated, morphed into, I mean, when the staff started putting things [descriptive records] into the Archival Research Catalog. But that didn’t occur until the early 2000s. So, all that time we were developing our own ways of getting in touch with researchers and informing them—writing informal reference papers, focusing on things about which we were getting a fair demand. So, trying to capture something in a brief leaflet. Not a formal RIP but just a casual two pager or so. And then AAD was a full other range and then what we started doing was—and I did not do a lot of this work myself but I directed it—[some very talented staff did it]—the work to making the records available online for download. And that’s a whole additional process of getting the documentation so that it can be in shape to be scanned, so that it can be downloaded, because you can’t use the data without the documentation. And most of the documentation that we received, at least up until the era of the internet, was all print on paper. So that all had to be—

[Assistant] I can imagine. That’s a lot of paper.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was more than a full-time job.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Yes, the new media comes out. It’s almost like, awe, another one. So, can you talk about some of the awards you received for your work?

[User] I’ve been fortunate to receive some recognition both from the Society of American Archivists, being named a Fellow, and from IASSIST, the International Association of Social Science Information Service and Technology, which has sort of been my home professional organization since, well, it didn’t exist when I was in Wisconsin, but since I was in Kentucky. And so that’s a small organization. IASSIST named me a, what do they call it, a lifetime achievement award or something like that. You could look up [their website, www.iassistdata.org]. It’s an organization of people like ourselves whose primary job is to identify, preserve, and make available social science data. Most of the National Archives' holdings in electronic form are archival records which can be used for social science research. [Other awards included Fynnette Eaton's] guest-edited issue of The American Archivist in which I had an article on the history of punch card [records] and how they are the predecessor to electronic records. Tom Brown had an article, Linda Henry had an article, Bruce Ambacher had an article. I mean many of the people had authorship in the—

[Assistant] [Interposing] the 30 years book

[User] 30 years book. And that American Archivist issue received an award.

[Assistant] I know you said you do reference but are there certain aspects of reference you really enjoy doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve been fortunate to receive some recognition both from the Society of American Archivists, being named a Fellow, and from IASSIST, the International Association of Social Science Information Service and Technology, which has sort of been my home professional organization since, well, it didn’t exist when I was in Wisconsin, but since I was in Kentucky. And so that’s a small organization. IASSIST named me a, what do they call it, a lifetime achievement award or something like that. You could look up [their website, www.iassistdata.org]. It’s an organization of people like ourselves whose primary job is to identify, preserve, and make available social science data. Most of the National Archives' holdings in electronic form are archival records which can be used for social science research. [Other awards included Fynnette Eaton's] guest-edited issue of The American Archivist in which I had an article on the history of punch card [records] and how they are the predecessor to electronic records. Tom Brown had an article, Linda Henry had an article, Bruce Ambacher had an article. I mean many of the people had authorship in the—

[Assistant] [Interposing] the 30 years book

[User] 30 years book. And that American Archivist issue received an award.

[Assistant] I know you said you do reference but are there certain aspects of reference you really enjoy doing?

[User] Oh, I mean, it's always fun to work with people who think they have found something that nobody else has found. Sometimes that’s true. Sometimes NARA will have preserved some record for a very long time that no researcher has really ever exploited and for a researcher to find those records is always very exciting, as is helping them do that. But I would say helping the guy who said, “I lost my legs but not my life,” helping the media find and identify the unknown soldier, those are real high points. But having the rest of the world understand that the United States is committed to preserving its digital data has always been a high point too. So, all my opportunities to participate in various professional associations were... I could carry that message.

[Assistant] Can you talk about some of the challenges that you faced while here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I was getting on [laughing]. I worked until I was 70. So, I think that was time for me to move on. New people could do it and I needed to just step back.

[Assistant] And that was in 2013?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you miss it?

[User] I don’t miss the commute.

[Assistant] Where did you live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t miss the commute.

[Assistant] Where did you live?

[User] I live in DC, upper northwest.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] I don’t miss the commute and I think the day-to-day grind after a while, [one] just gets tired. It was time to move on. I did not want to do contract work in this field partially because I think the government should employ more people directly. But of course, I miss it. I mean, it’s been a part of my [professional] life always. And I try to keep up online with as much as I can in terms of evolution, things that are important in SAA and I’ve done some writing and I did edit a volume of articles for IASSIST after I retired. I have an article that theoretically was supposed to be out some time ago that I was asked to do a year or so ago.

[Assistant] So, you’re still active?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I live in DC, upper northwest.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] I don’t miss the commute and I think the day-to-day grind after a while, [one] just gets tired. It was time to move on. I did not want to do contract work in this field partially because I think the government should employ more people directly. But of course, I miss it. I mean, it’s been a part of my [professional] life always. And I try to keep up online with as much as I can in terms of evolution, things that are important in SAA and I’ve done some writing and I did edit a volume of articles for IASSIST after I retired. I have an article that theoretically was supposed to be out some time ago that I was asked to do a year or so ago.

[Assistant] So, you’re still active?

[User] Still a little bit, yeah. And I do other volunteer work.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I know I said it would be an hour and we’re about 10 minutes over but I was wondering, is there anything else you want to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but what kind of electronic business are you going to be in?

[Assistant] Can you see, I mean, you worked here, do you think the Archives is—

[User] [Interposing] You see, my soft spot is still with the data, right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Okay. Will the Archives as a whole really—I mean, do the research reference staff here in this building as well as the ones at Archives II think of digital data as a primary source when they’re working with people? They do if they know about a particular file or they know—I mean, I think there’s a fair amount of use of resources that are on AAD. But, does primary source documentation to them incorporate that kind of resource? I mean, it’s not unlike, you probably would find some people challenged by thinking of photographs, still photos, digital photos now. Well, the historical record is very word based. Data is not word based. So yes, I think we’re going electronic and I think [digital] data are going to continue to be created because that’s what runs agencies.

[Assistant] And that’s what’s really—I mean, I think the data, because you can study and you can find trends and you can point out things that are wrong—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] You see, my soft spot is still with the data, right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Okay. Will the Archives as a whole really—I mean, do the research reference staff here in this building as well as the ones at Archives II think of digital data as a primary source when they’re working with people? They do if they know about a particular file or they know—I mean, I think there’s a fair amount of use of resources that are on AAD. But, does primary source documentation to them incorporate that kind of resource? I mean, it’s not unlike, you probably would find some people challenged by thinking of photographs, still photos, digital photos now. Well, the historical record is very word based. Data is not word based. So yes, I think we’re going electronic and I think [digital] data are going to continue to be created because that’s what runs agencies.

[Assistant] And that’s what’s really—I mean, I think the data, because you can study and you can find trends and you can point out things that are wrong—

[User] [Interposing] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Especially since the agencies don’t talk to each other, we really need to keep that information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Will the Archives as a whole really—I mean, do the research reference staff here in this building as well as the ones at Archives II think of digital data as a primary source when they’re working with people? They do if they know about a particular file or they know—I mean, I think there’s a fair amount of use of resources that are on AAD. But, does primary source documentation to them incorporate that kind of resource? I mean, it’s not unlike, you probably would find some people challenged by thinking of photographs, still photos, digital photos now. Well, the historical record is very word based. Data is not word based. So yes, I think we’re going electronic and I think [digital] data are going to continue to be created because that’s what runs agencies.

[Assistant] And that’s what’s really—I mean, I think the data, because you can study and you can find trends and you can point out things that are wrong—

[User] [Interposing] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Especially since the agencies don’t talk to each other, we really need to keep that information.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And make it available.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Especially since the agencies don’t talk to each other, we really need to keep that information.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And make it available.

[User] Right, and make it available and preserve—well, have to identify first what’s valuable and then, I mean, for the longest time, and I don’t know what the policy is right now, but for the longest time the policy of the National Archives was only to accept digital data that was in a software independent format. Now I know that’s gone by the by but the logic behind that was that it was through having software-independent records that you could preserve them long term and retain the ability to use those records with whatever software and hardware gets developed down the road because we know this is never going to end. And it’s never going to be the case that something happens out there that’s going to solve the problem and you’re not going to have to keep migrating or whatever it is we’re now doing. I think an understanding of technological innovation says that that’s not going to happen. So, I would just like to see us move a little bit more to, you know, integration of mentalities about the value of digital data as a primary source.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And make it available.

[User] Right, and make it available and preserve—well, have to identify first what’s valuable and then, I mean, for the longest time, and I don’t know what the policy is right now, but for the longest time the policy of the National Archives was only to accept digital data that was in a software independent format. Now I know that’s gone by the by but the logic behind that was that it was through having software-independent records that you could preserve them long term and retain the ability to use those records with whatever software and hardware gets developed down the road because we know this is never going to end. And it’s never going to be the case that something happens out there that’s going to solve the problem and you’re not going to have to keep migrating or whatever it is we’re now doing. I think an understanding of technological innovation says that that’s not going to happen. So, I would just like to see us move a little bit more to, you know, integration of mentalities about the value of digital data as a primary source.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much—

[User] [Interposing] Well, you’re welcome.

[Assistant] —for sharing with me. This was great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and make it available and preserve—well, have to identify first what’s valuable and then, I mean, for the longest time, and I don’t know what the policy is right now, but for the longest time the policy of the National Archives was only to accept digital data that was in a software independent format. Now I know that’s gone by the by but the logic behind that was that it was through having software-independent records that you could preserve them long term and retain the ability to use those records with whatever software and hardware gets developed down the road because we know this is never going to end. And it’s never going to be the case that something happens out there that’s going to solve the problem and you’re not going to have to keep migrating or whatever it is we’re now doing. I think an understanding of technological innovation says that that’s not going to happen. So, I would just like to see us move a little bit more to, you know, integration of mentalities about the value of digital data as a primary source.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much—

[User] [Interposing] Well, you’re welcome.

[Assistant] —for sharing with me. This was great.

[User] But, I mean, it was an exciting opportunity to have a chance to work on [and talk about] this, all those years and from the punch card era to the online.

[Assistant] Yeah. That’s quite a change when you think about punch cards to, I mean, you probably, I probably, couldn’t even envision the internet. I don’t know, it must have been a huge technological advancement while working with these electronic records, having this created and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Well, you’re welcome.

[Assistant] —for sharing with me. This was great.

[User] But, I mean, it was an exciting opportunity to have a chance to work on [and talk about] this, all those years and from the punch card era to the online.

[Assistant] Yeah. That’s quite a change when you think about punch cards to, I mean, you probably, I probably, couldn’t even envision the internet. I don’t know, it must have been a huge technological advancement while working with these electronic records, having this created and—

[User] [Interposing] Oh, yeah, it was marvelous. I mean, you know, you could see how technology was going to take us down the road. The advantage I had by starting with punch cards is I also could visualize what it is to store bits and bytes and so I had a mental picture. So, I’m not unlike what I’m critiquing here, saying that people are only going to go with what they understand, I mean, so I could understand how information was being stored and so when we migrated to tape, it was still organized the same way but I could understand it in a way that somebody who didn’t have that opportunity had to learn it differently.

[Assistant] Right. That’s great. Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. I was doing part-time teaching in St. Louis and looking for jobs as a full- time professor and there were no jobs. A friend of mine from grad school, Alan Perry, who was already with the National Archives, suggested that I apply for a position. He said that it was history-related and it paid okay and it had benefits, so it seemed like a good thing to do. And so I took the civil service exam and, a few months after that, was selected for a training position to be an archivist, starting at the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis.

[Assistant] What were you doing prior to the National Archives?

[User] I was teaching part-time, mostly at community colleges in St. Louis, but actually wherever they would hire me. And jobs were getting scarce, so I needed something permanent and full- time.

[Assistant] How did your education influence your decision to come to the National Archives?

[User] Well, I was a history major undergrad. My Ph.D. was in French history, so I wanted to do something that was history-related. And certainly the National Archives has a strong history component and, in fact, to be an archivist at the time, and I’m not sure if it’s still the case, you had to have 30 hours of American history or politics or some related field. And so it’s definitely, my history degree was something useful in a job and actually having a PhD helped. The National Archives was good at the process of hiring a lot of history PhDs who could not get jobs in academia.

[Assistant] Interesting. What would this timeframe be? Can you encapsulate a timeframe period that we’re talking here as your history in the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was teaching part-time, mostly at community colleges in St. Louis, but actually wherever they would hire me. And jobs were getting scarce, so I needed something permanent and full- time.

[Assistant] How did your education influence your decision to come to the National Archives?

[User] Well, I was a history major undergrad. My Ph.D. was in French history, so I wanted to do something that was history-related. And certainly the National Archives has a strong history component and, in fact, to be an archivist at the time, and I’m not sure if it’s still the case, you had to have 30 hours of American history or politics or some related field. And so it’s definitely, my history degree was something useful in a job and actually having a PhD helped. The National Archives was good at the process of hiring a lot of history PhDs who could not get jobs in academia.

[Assistant] Interesting. What would this timeframe be? Can you encapsulate a timeframe period that we’re talking here as your history in the National Archives?

[User] Yeah. I started in October 1977 in St. Louis, and so, that’s 37 and a half years ago.

[Assistant] What were your impressions of the agency at the time that you began?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, without question. Certainly with just locally we have National Park Service records, which are coming in at a decent pace. We have records of Portsmouth Navy Yard from the 19th century that we’re still working on getting in without people having direct contact, people in Boston having contact with Portsmouth, we’re not going to get those records. And that’s just one example, I’m sure I could come up with a lot of other examples. Not only in New England, but throughout the country.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to add, any anecdotes or words of wisdom or, so to speak, of anything? And I know it’s a pretty broad question again that we’re asking of you here, but is there anything else that you’d like to address before we end our interview?

[User] Well, I guess just that I didn’t grow up saying, gee, when I grow up, I want to be an archivist. And even in college and grad school, I wasn’t doing that. I was using archives but I didn’t want to be an archivist. Yeah, I was going to go, you know, teach people, and yet it’s a really interesting and rewarding career. And, yeah, so you have fun with the records. It’s been great and the people have been great. So, you know, although it was not my initial career path, as it turned out, I’m very happy with it. I’m happy with what I’ve done.

[Assistant] Anything you’d do differently?

[User] That’s a hard question. Yeah, I’d probably make some different appraisal decisions, but, keep this, throw out that.

[Assistant] But as a career move you feel that this was a good direction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess just that I didn’t grow up saying, gee, when I grow up, I want to be an archivist. And even in college and grad school, I wasn’t doing that. I was using archives but I didn’t want to be an archivist. Yeah, I was going to go, you know, teach people, and yet it’s a really interesting and rewarding career. And, yeah, so you have fun with the records. It’s been great and the people have been great. So, you know, although it was not my initial career path, as it turned out, I’m very happy with it. I’m happy with what I’ve done.

[Assistant] Anything you’d do differently?

[User] That’s a hard question. Yeah, I’d probably make some different appraisal decisions, but, keep this, throw out that.

[Assistant] But as a career move you feel that this was a good direction?

[User] Yeah. And I think, yeah, because I’ve really enjoyed working directly with the records. One of the things in RSA, if you get too many promotions you get separated from actual contact with the records. And sometimes very consciously chosen not to go for a promotion where I’d be doing more management and less records work. And I think that’s, for me that’s the correct decision.

[Assistant] Okay, Marvin. Thank you for your time, thank you for your service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a hard question. Yeah, I’d probably make some different appraisal decisions, but, keep this, throw out that.

[Assistant] But as a career move you feel that this was a good direction?

[User] Yeah. And I think, yeah, because I’ve really enjoyed working directly with the records. One of the things in RSA, if you get too many promotions you get separated from actual contact with the records. And sometimes very consciously chosen not to go for a promotion where I’d be doing more management and less records work. And I think that’s, for me that’s the correct decision.

[Assistant] Okay, Marvin. Thank you for your time, thank you for your service.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Appreciate it, and I’m sure for the record everybody who looks at this recording in the future will come, will come away with a better perspective on the National Archives and certainly a better perspective of you as a human being as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This Office did not need to exist. It was because, I think, of the fairly painful year we went through in trying to take these three different projects and mold them such that they would all conduct their business sort of the same way. It just wasn’t working. Let’s face it, some of it had to do with the people involved—even on our side, Larry and my side—but some of it had to do with the players involved who were involved in these other projects. It was short-lived. It was at least a year, I’m thinking, and then I’ll just say we had the guts to stand up and tell Center management that we don’t think this needs to exist. So it went away.

[Assistant] Management was fine with that decision?

[User] Yes. Yes, they were. I know we’re going to cover this maybe even next, but one thing that came out of this was the EVA Projects Office, came out of doing away with the JSC Projects Office.

[Assistant] How did that come out of it? I know you were deputy manager for EVA Integration. I was wondering how that also went through and if that changed things at all.

[User] Yes, I was. As it turns out, the smaller office that was under the JSC Projects Office umbrella—the smaller office and its leader was not at all happy that in the head office, the JSC Projects Office, there was a position “EVA manager.” That didn’t go over very well, either.\n\n I would say the most awkward period of my career started during that time and lasted until we decided that we no longer needed the JSC Projects Office then going and falling into the EVA Project. It’s interesting, Jennifer. My first journey from Flight Operations—all my career over to the nine-story Building 1—my first journey in existence over here was pretty rough.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suspect that my experience with EVAs during Shuttle, being in the EVA Projects Office, being very much involved with trying to combine our resources, i.e., get the stuff from Marshall over here—probably just natural to be part of that. Jennifer, I can’t remember. When I did that I can’t remember what job I was in, because the ORI [Operational Readiness Inspection] cochairman was just a part-time thing. So I can’t remember where I was at that time, whether I was chief of the Flight Director Office, I don’t know. Do you remember the year that that was done?

[Assistant] That was ’97. So you were still in your position at the EVA Projects Office, because you went back to MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] in ’98 to be deputy chief.

[User] If it was ’97 then I was still over in EVA Projects Office. So I think that answers the question. Jerry Ross was picked because of already his interest in EVA and experience in that, then EVA Projects Office was going to supply the cochair. I just became a natural to do that I think, but the fact that I had the Hubble experience didn’t hurt, I’m sure.

[Assistant] I’m sure.

[User] Yes, I’m sure it didn’t. Because that’s where we really—as somebody used the term recently—EVA stuck its head out of the closet for the first time, with the five back-to-back EVAs that we did.

[Assistant] Yes, there weren’t many, then all of a sudden there was a huge jump. Were you looking at anything like virtual reality? I thought you had used some of that on STS-61. Was that also another issue you were looking at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If it was ’97 then I was still over in EVA Projects Office. So I think that answers the question. Jerry Ross was picked because of already his interest in EVA and experience in that, then EVA Projects Office was going to supply the cochair. I just became a natural to do that I think, but the fact that I had the Hubble experience didn’t hurt, I’m sure.

[Assistant] I’m sure.

[User] Yes, I’m sure it didn’t. Because that’s where we really—as somebody used the term recently—EVA stuck its head out of the closet for the first time, with the five back-to-back EVAs that we did.

[Assistant] Yes, there weren’t many, then all of a sudden there was a huge jump. Were you looking at anything like virtual reality? I thought you had used some of that on STS-61. Was that also another issue you were looking at?

[User] Yes, virtual reality, what a marvelous tool. Yes, man, yes. In fact, I think the crews really fell in love with that. I can understand why. That was well done. The little outfit, the guys and gals that ran that thing, that lab was over, I think, in Building 9. It was one of those things that you walked in, and it looked like my garage. It was just helter-skelter. They had a small team over there that was remarkable in what they could get done, on a very slim budget, very slim budget. You talk about a group of people that got stuff done, they were really a great group.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that first Station mission? Jerry Ross was on that mission, STS-88.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’m sure it didn’t. Because that’s where we really—as somebody used the term recently—EVA stuck its head out of the closet for the first time, with the five back-to-back EVAs that we did.

[Assistant] Yes, there weren’t many, then all of a sudden there was a huge jump. Were you looking at anything like virtual reality? I thought you had used some of that on STS-61. Was that also another issue you were looking at?

[User] Yes, virtual reality, what a marvelous tool. Yes, man, yes. In fact, I think the crews really fell in love with that. I can understand why. That was well done. The little outfit, the guys and gals that ran that thing, that lab was over, I think, in Building 9. It was one of those things that you walked in, and it looked like my garage. It was just helter-skelter. They had a small team over there that was remarkable in what they could get done, on a very slim budget, very slim budget. You talk about a group of people that got stuff done, they were really a great group.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that first Station mission? Jerry Ross was on that mission, STS-88.

[User] Gosh, you tell me.

[Assistant] I just wondered if it made an impact on you. I know you’ve been involved with so many missions. After a while it’s probably like everything else, [it] just kind of melds [together] unless there’s a specific memory.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, virtual reality, what a marvelous tool. Yes, man, yes. In fact, I think the crews really fell in love with that. I can understand why. That was well done. The little outfit, the guys and gals that ran that thing, that lab was over, I think, in Building 9. It was one of those things that you walked in, and it looked like my garage. It was just helter-skelter. They had a small team over there that was remarkable in what they could get done, on a very slim budget, very slim budget. You talk about a group of people that got stuff done, they were really a great group.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that first Station mission? Jerry Ross was on that mission, STS-88.

[User] Gosh, you tell me.

[Assistant] I just wondered if it made an impact on you. I know you’ve been involved with so many missions. After a while it’s probably like everything else, [it] just kind of melds [together] unless there’s a specific memory.

[User] Jennifer, I don’t know that I had any—occasionally I get asked a question like that and it’s like I don’t know that there’s a point that I pause and I say, “Wow, look at that. Look where we’ve come from.” I don’t really remember doing those things. So I don’t have a good answer for that.

[Assistant] You decided to go back to MOD, and became deputy chief, which I find interesting based on our previous discussion about management. So you must have felt pretty capable of handling management issues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gosh, you tell me.

[Assistant] I just wondered if it made an impact on you. I know you’ve been involved with so many missions. After a while it’s probably like everything else, [it] just kind of melds [together] unless there’s a specific memory.

[User] Jennifer, I don’t know that I had any—occasionally I get asked a question like that and it’s like I don’t know that there’s a point that I pause and I say, “Wow, look at that. Look where we’ve come from.” I don’t really remember doing those things. So I don’t have a good answer for that.

[Assistant] You decided to go back to MOD, and became deputy chief, which I find interesting based on our previous discussion about management. So you must have felt pretty capable of handling management issues.

[User] Feeling more capable. The thing I told you about a while ago, I think in EVA Projects Office I learned a lot about that. I don’t think I recognized that I learned a lot about that until later. Jeff [Jeffrey W.] Bantle was the chief of the Flight Director Office, and he asked would I be interested in coming back to be his deputy. It’s interesting—I alluded to this a while ago. For quite a while after that, when I got over there, people probably got tired of me saying this, but often I said, “I escaped Building 1.”

[Assistant] Then you came back later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not a bad thing at all. Again, there’s an example of how that man was in touch. We actually wanted more, but we thought well [we cannot ask for that many]. Perhaps we should have gone in with even more and then come down, but we lowballed it a bit. We ended up getting nine.\n\n I am so proud of the outcome of this thing. Sometimes it’s awkward to talk about diversity. This class was one of the most diverse classes ever, and that’s the way it came out. Sometimes I think when you talk about these things or see how they came out, “Well, they had to hire so-and-so.” You know what I mean, “They had to do that.” No, that’s not the case. I got to select the first African American to be in that position—outstanding. Our class was three ladies. Of the nine we had two with Hispanic background, and we had the first African American. I really felt good about that, and that’s just the way it came out. I was very happy for that. As far as being in the Office and being the chief of the Office, that’s what I feel best about.

[Assistant] It’s a pretty proud moment, seeing a very diverse group of people coming in.

[User] There’s an article out there somewhere. The new class was interviewed by some magazine, and there’s an article out there. I’ll send it to you if you’re interested if I can find it.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Part of it says—and I can’t remember which flight director it was that was one of the first interviewees in the article. He said, “We came in the office”—I’m paraphrasing—“We came in the office for our first meeting, get-together. We all knew Uncle Milty. We came in and he closed the door. Basically he scared the living daylights out of us.”

[Assistant] What’d you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s an article out there somewhere. The new class was interviewed by some magazine, and there’s an article out there. I’ll send it to you if you’re interested if I can find it.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Part of it says—and I can’t remember which flight director it was that was one of the first interviewees in the article. He said, “We came in the office”—I’m paraphrasing—“We came in the office for our first meeting, get-together. We all knew Uncle Milty. We came in and he closed the door. Basically he scared the living daylights out of us.”

[Assistant] What’d you say?

[User] In so many words I said, “You have entered something that is very special, and I need to tell you I don’t want to see you pounding your chest for anything. There are a lot of people out there that could be here in your place. It just so happened that you’re the ones we have selected. No way do I want you to take this position as a flight director and make it”—these aren’t the words I used. Basically, you aren’t the king of the hill. You’re going to have to find a way to be humble but fearless when it comes to running this operation and being in Mission Control and being behind that console. It wasn’t anything I wrote down. It’s just what I felt and said at the time, but it scared the living daylights out of them. In the article, whether it’s true or not, one of them said, “I couldn’t sleep that night.”

[Assistant] Oh, no. Did somebody secretly pass you that article just like they gave you that Congressional Record?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Part of it says—and I can’t remember which flight director it was that was one of the first interviewees in the article. He said, “We came in the office”—I’m paraphrasing—“We came in the office for our first meeting, get-together. We all knew Uncle Milty. We came in and he closed the door. Basically he scared the living daylights out of us.”

[Assistant] What’d you say?

[User] In so many words I said, “You have entered something that is very special, and I need to tell you I don’t want to see you pounding your chest for anything. There are a lot of people out there that could be here in your place. It just so happened that you’re the ones we have selected. No way do I want you to take this position as a flight director and make it”—these aren’t the words I used. Basically, you aren’t the king of the hill. You’re going to have to find a way to be humble but fearless when it comes to running this operation and being in Mission Control and being behind that console. It wasn’t anything I wrote down. It’s just what I felt and said at the time, but it scared the living daylights out of them. In the article, whether it’s true or not, one of them said, “I couldn’t sleep that night.”

[Assistant] Oh, no. Did somebody secretly pass you that article just like they gave you that Congressional Record?

[User] I guess the assertiveness training I had back in the early days must have helped. It showed up again.

[Assistant] That’s right. We’ve talked with people in the Astronaut Office about how they pick crews. How do you determine who’s going to be a flight director for missions? You also had Station missions now in addition to Shuttle missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you would hope so. But my visit to Baikonur and to Kazakhstan, getting off that plane and seeing what I saw for the first time, it was like “Holy cow.” Unbelievable.

[Assistant] Paints a quite interesting picture in my head.

[User] Yes, “If you want to go to the bathroom it’s out there.”

[Assistant] It’s crazy.

[User] I’m not sure it was a real customs thing, but we got through customs pretty quick.

[Assistant] That’s good. I wanted to ask you about 9/11 [terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001] and being here at JSC. What are your memories of that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, “If you want to go to the bathroom it’s out there.”

[Assistant] It’s crazy.

[User] I’m not sure it was a real customs thing, but we got through customs pretty quick.

[Assistant] That’s good. I wanted to ask you about 9/11 [terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001] and being here at JSC. What are your memories of that day?

[User] I was chief of the Office then I think.

[Assistant] You were, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure it was a real customs thing, but we got through customs pretty quick.

[Assistant] That’s good. I wanted to ask you about 9/11 [terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001] and being here at JSC. What are your memories of that day?

[User] I was chief of the Office then I think.

[Assistant] You were, yes.

[User] Yes, I was chief of the Office then. Every morning Mission Operations Directorate would have an 8:00 telephone tag-up [with] the office chiefs, division chiefs from around the area. We’re sitting in this meeting when we get the word that the first plane has struck the building. We get the word, then of course it’s not long after that that the second one happens.\n\n Kind of a blur here, but we were doing a simulation that day. In fact, John [P.] Shannon was still a flight director. He was running a simulation. So I went over to the control center and talked to John, and I told him, I said, “We need to shut this operation down, this simulation. I want it shut down. I want you folks out of here.”\n\n I can’t remember the exact timing. That was still probably before noon here when I got over there. We’d already had a tagup or two with—back in those days the chief of the Flight Director Office was considered senior staff. Oh gosh, who was our Center Director?

[Assistant] Was it [Roy S.] Estess at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was chief of the Office then I think.

[Assistant] You were, yes.

[User] Yes, I was chief of the Office then. Every morning Mission Operations Directorate would have an 8:00 telephone tag-up [with] the office chiefs, division chiefs from around the area. We’re sitting in this meeting when we get the word that the first plane has struck the building. We get the word, then of course it’s not long after that that the second one happens.\n\n Kind of a blur here, but we were doing a simulation that day. In fact, John [P.] Shannon was still a flight director. He was running a simulation. So I went over to the control center and talked to John, and I told him, I said, “We need to shut this operation down, this simulation. I want it shut down. I want you folks out of here.”\n\n I can’t remember the exact timing. That was still probably before noon here when I got over there. We’d already had a tagup or two with—back in those days the chief of the Flight Director Office was considered senior staff. Oh gosh, who was our Center Director?

[Assistant] Was it [Roy S.] Estess at that point?

[User] It was Estess, it was Estess.

[Assistant] I think so, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wonderful thing to do. So we got the people out of that building, they were already uncomfortable in that building. By the time we actually got that all done, [it was] somewhere in the midafternoon timeframe or late afternoon. We got them out of the building, we got them set up over at Building 5, where they could do what they needed to do, and stay there for a while. I don’t remember how long it was there, but that’s what we did.

[Assistant] Did things change as a result? I remember being here that day, and the Center closed for a day. Were you involved in discussions about how we were going to safely bring people back onsite and changes to security, safety?

[User] No, I was not involved in those sorts of things. It was our job, “Okay, we’re going to shut down things here from a training standpoint. The only thing we’re going to be doing right now is operating Space Station, and we’re going to be doing it from Building 5. That’s all we’re going to worry about is getting that done.” That’s what we did.

[Assistant] I think fairly soon after that there was a new guard shack put outside of the entrance to Building 30. I was curious if you knew the reason behind that.

[User] Of course, if you think of what was done around the site, we had all of those—what do we call them, big iron posts put into the ground.

[Assistant] Oh yes, those barriers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not involved in those sorts of things. It was our job, “Okay, we’re going to shut down things here from a training standpoint. The only thing we’re going to be doing right now is operating Space Station, and we’re going to be doing it from Building 5. That’s all we’re going to worry about is getting that done.” That’s what we did.

[Assistant] I think fairly soon after that there was a new guard shack put outside of the entrance to Building 30. I was curious if you knew the reason behind that.

[User] Of course, if you think of what was done around the site, we had all of those—what do we call them, big iron posts put into the ground.

[Assistant] Oh yes, those barriers.

[User] If you think about it, a close-in perimeter was established at Mission Control specifically to be sure that it was protected from any threats like that in the future. Yes, there was a guard shack put out on both sides of the building over on Building 30, both of them.

[Assistant] That’s right, I forgot about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, if you think of what was done around the site, we had all of those—what do we call them, big iron posts put into the ground.

[Assistant] Oh yes, those barriers.

[User] If you think about it, a close-in perimeter was established at Mission Control specifically to be sure that it was protected from any threats like that in the future. Yes, there was a guard shack put out on both sides of the building over on Building 30, both of them.

[Assistant] That’s right, I forgot about that.

[User] Yes, to enter the parking lot on either side you had to go through the guard shack. Clearly 9/11 caused that to happen.

[Assistant] Yes, and now we’re not operating them anymore. That happened fairly quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you think about it, a close-in perimeter was established at Mission Control specifically to be sure that it was protected from any threats like that in the future. Yes, there was a guard shack put out on both sides of the building over on Building 30, both of them.

[Assistant] That’s right, I forgot about that.

[User] Yes, to enter the parking lot on either side you had to go through the guard shack. Clearly 9/11 caused that to happen.

[Assistant] Yes, and now we’re not operating them anymore. That happened fairly quickly.

[User] That’s right, the barrier is still up. Yes, I think that makes sense.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask you about Hurricane Lili, which happened the next year, because it was so unusual. It’s my understanding that was the first time a flight was delayed because of weather here in Houston. You had to close down Mission Control. You want to talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, to enter the parking lot on either side you had to go through the guard shack. Clearly 9/11 caused that to happen.

[Assistant] Yes, and now we’re not operating them anymore. That happened fairly quickly.

[User] That’s right, the barrier is still up. Yes, I think that makes sense.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask you about Hurricane Lili, which happened the next year, because it was so unusual. It’s my understanding that was the first time a flight was delayed because of weather here in Houston. You had to close down Mission Control. You want to talk about that?

[User] For Station, was it?

[Assistant] Shuttle got delayed because of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, the barrier is still up. Yes, I think that makes sense.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask you about Hurricane Lili, which happened the next year, because it was so unusual. It’s my understanding that was the first time a flight was delayed because of weather here in Houston. You had to close down Mission Control. You want to talk about that?

[User] For Station, was it?

[Assistant] Shuttle got delayed because of that.

[User] Shuttle got delayed. So this is the one where we packed up and went to Austin area or something like that—no.

[Assistant] I read you transferred over to backup in Moscow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For Station, was it?

[Assistant] Shuttle got delayed because of that.

[User] Shuttle got delayed. So this is the one where we packed up and went to Austin area or something like that—no.

[Assistant] I read you transferred over to backup in Moscow.

[User] Oh yes, that’s right. There was another weather event another time where we ended up shutting down the Station. We weren’t flying Shuttle, but Station was up, and we ended up taking a team over to somewhere over near the Hill Country and setting up operating remotely from there.

[Assistant] Was that during your tenure as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shuttle got delayed. So this is the one where we packed up and went to Austin area or something like that—no.

[Assistant] I read you transferred over to backup in Moscow.

[User] Oh yes, that’s right. There was another weather event another time where we ended up shutting down the Station. We weren’t flying Shuttle, but Station was up, and we ended up taking a team over to somewhere over near the Hill Country and setting up operating remotely from there.

[Assistant] Was that during your tenure as well?

[User] I think I might have been working for Coats at the time as Associate Director, or I could have been the deputy of MOD at the time. I don’t remember. But no, you’re right, there was a time when we handed over control. To Moscow is a little bit misleading because we had our people over there.

[Assistant] Right, yes, there was a backup American team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, that’s right. There was another weather event another time where we ended up shutting down the Station. We weren’t flying Shuttle, but Station was up, and we ended up taking a team over to somewhere over near the Hill Country and setting up operating remotely from there.

[Assistant] Was that during your tenure as well?

[User] I think I might have been working for Coats at the time as Associate Director, or I could have been the deputy of MOD at the time. I don’t remember. But no, you’re right, there was a time when we handed over control. To Moscow is a little bit misleading because we had our people over there.

[Assistant] Right, yes, there was a backup American team.

[User] Yes, we actually had people over there that could work with the Russians there. In fact, we always have them there. Even now we have a small team, I think, still over there. I don’t remember being involved in the decision process to do that. If I was working for Coats at the time I would have known about it, and I would have nodded my head, said, “It makes perfect sense to me to do that.” Yes.

[Assistant] With Lili were you involved in that decision to shut things down and power things down and transfer control?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I might have been working for Coats at the time as Associate Director, or I could have been the deputy of MOD at the time. I don’t remember. But no, you’re right, there was a time when we handed over control. To Moscow is a little bit misleading because we had our people over there.

[Assistant] Right, yes, there was a backup American team.

[User] Yes, we actually had people over there that could work with the Russians there. In fact, we always have them there. Even now we have a small team, I think, still over there. I don’t remember being involved in the decision process to do that. If I was working for Coats at the time I would have known about it, and I would have nodded my head, said, “It makes perfect sense to me to do that.” Yes.

[Assistant] With Lili were you involved in that decision to shut things down and power things down and transfer control?

[User] When I was on Coats’s staff I sat in on all the meetings where we had briefings during hurricane season, when we were considering going to different levels of protection. I sat in on all these meetings, but I didn’t need to say anything. I wasn’t involved. I didn’t actually have to be. If I heard something I questioned, I could do that, but I wasn’t actually a voting member to say, “We’re going to shut down the Center.” My position wasn’t such. I was welcome to say anything anytime I wanted to, but there was no need for me to, so I wasn’t involved in the decision to shut the Center down.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you about [Space Shuttle] Columbia [STS-107 disaster] because you had some involvement immediately after the accident.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we actually had people over there that could work with the Russians there. In fact, we always have them there. Even now we have a small team, I think, still over there. I don’t remember being involved in the decision process to do that. If I was working for Coats at the time I would have known about it, and I would have nodded my head, said, “It makes perfect sense to me to do that.” Yes.

[Assistant] With Lili were you involved in that decision to shut things down and power things down and transfer control?

[User] When I was on Coats’s staff I sat in on all the meetings where we had briefings during hurricane season, when we were considering going to different levels of protection. I sat in on all these meetings, but I didn’t need to say anything. I wasn’t involved. I didn’t actually have to be. If I heard something I questioned, I could do that, but I wasn’t actually a voting member to say, “We’re going to shut down the Center.” My position wasn’t such. I was welcome to say anything anytime I wanted to, but there was no need for me to, so I wasn’t involved in the decision to shut the Center down.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you about [Space Shuttle] Columbia [STS-107 disaster] because you had some involvement immediately after the accident.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Were you working that Saturday morning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. What the heck was I doing at that time? What year was that?

[Assistant] That was in 2003. So you were still chief of the Flight Director Office.

[User] Oh yes, because then I got another duty after that time, Ombudsman. Public Affairs. I can’t remember if [Public Affairs Officer] Rob [Robert A.] Navias was in the room or Kyle [J.] Herring, I don’t remember who was in the room at the time. We’re getting to the time where NASA needs to say something. Somebody’s deciding we need to have a news conference and tell people what we know.\n\n I can’t remember how I was approached but I was standing there. I could tell that there was some interest in getting LeRoy. At this point somebody else had come into the room. We were getting ready to relieve—LeRoy has done what he can, so let’s let LeRoy step aside, and just do what he needs to do for a little bit. They were interested in LeRoy coming over and talking and I said, “No, I’ll do that.” I didn’t want LeRoy to do that. That’s how I got involved.

[Assistant] I was curious about that.

[User] I said, “I’ll do that.” Nobody offered to take my place.

[Assistant] I imagine that was a pretty difficult press conference then. So many what-ifs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, because then I got another duty after that time, Ombudsman. Public Affairs. I can’t remember if [Public Affairs Officer] Rob [Robert A.] Navias was in the room or Kyle [J.] Herring, I don’t remember who was in the room at the time. We’re getting to the time where NASA needs to say something. Somebody’s deciding we need to have a news conference and tell people what we know.\n\n I can’t remember how I was approached but I was standing there. I could tell that there was some interest in getting LeRoy. At this point somebody else had come into the room. We were getting ready to relieve—LeRoy has done what he can, so let’s let LeRoy step aside, and just do what he needs to do for a little bit. They were interested in LeRoy coming over and talking and I said, “No, I’ll do that.” I didn’t want LeRoy to do that. That’s how I got involved.

[Assistant] I was curious about that.

[User] I said, “I’ll do that.” Nobody offered to take my place.

[Assistant] I imagine that was a pretty difficult press conference then. So many what-ifs.

[User] Yes, I regret something I said early in my opening statement. I wish I had said something in reference to the crew and the family. Ron spoke first, I believe, and he had made that comment I think. He said something. I think my first statement was something to the effect that, “I’m glad I live in a country where when we have something bad happen, we go fix it.” Something like that instead of saying something first about the family.\n\n The way I talk about these things between [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L tragedy]—I was here for the Apollo 1 fire in a very different role at that time. Here for of course the loss of Challenger, we’ve talked about that. This one really did indeed happen on my watch.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s a difficult pill to swallow then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said, “I’ll do that.” Nobody offered to take my place.

[Assistant] I imagine that was a pretty difficult press conference then. So many what-ifs.

[User] Yes, I regret something I said early in my opening statement. I wish I had said something in reference to the crew and the family. Ron spoke first, I believe, and he had made that comment I think. He said something. I think my first statement was something to the effect that, “I’m glad I live in a country where when we have something bad happen, we go fix it.” Something like that instead of saying something first about the family.\n\n The way I talk about these things between [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L tragedy]—I was here for the Apollo 1 fire in a very different role at that time. Here for of course the loss of Challenger, we’ve talked about that. This one really did indeed happen on my watch.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s a difficult pill to swallow then.

[User] Oh, yes. Did we talk about that last time?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t talked about Columbia. We talked about Challenger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It’s interesting. All three of those—Apollo 1 fire, Challenger, Columbia—there’s a common thing in each one of those. And it is there were people that knew that we were doing something we shouldn’t be doing. Going all the way back to the Apollo 1 fire. There were people that were uncomfortable, knew we should not be doing something. So I wonder, Jennifer, have we really learned our lesson.

[Assistant] I guess we won’t know until the next [accident].

[User] Won’t know until the next time.

[Assistant] Yes, unfortunately.

[User] If there is a next time with a similar sort of thing, i.e., some people were nervous in the background, knew something, felt uncomfortable, and they were right on, but they weren’t recognized.

[Assistant] We have about five minutes. I don’t know if you want to talk about some of the time that you spent out in East Texas and Louisiana, or if you just want to stop here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Won’t know until the next time.

[Assistant] Yes, unfortunately.

[User] If there is a next time with a similar sort of thing, i.e., some people were nervous in the background, knew something, felt uncomfortable, and they were right on, but they weren’t recognized.

[Assistant] We have about five minutes. I don’t know if you want to talk about some of the time that you spent out in East Texas and Louisiana, or if you just want to stop here.

[User] No, I can go ahead. Since I’m in that mode now, let me. So maybe it was a couple of weeks after, of course the recovery operation was under way. Have we talked about this yet?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t. We’ve been going chronologically through things.