[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, OK.

[Assistant] And was there any break between first and second year? How many months did you serve altogether, because you were training for a long time, including in-country?

[User] Well, I left. We left Medellin in February of '66. Got there probably in, well, I got to Colombia in the spring of '64.

[Assistant] Okay, so shy of 20 months.

[User] Year and a half at least in the country, a year and a half in Medellin.

[Assistant] It's pretty clear, I think. Is there anything further about the particular job you were doing? Did it change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I left. We left Medellin in February of '66. Got there probably in, well, I got to Colombia in the spring of '64.

[Assistant] Okay, so shy of 20 months.

[User] Year and a half at least in the country, a year and a half in Medellin.

[Assistant] It's pretty clear, I think. Is there anything further about the particular job you were doing? Did it change?

[User] No, it didn't. I mean, it didn't change. I mean, I think, I mean, the variety of things that I got to do besides the schools. I did a church in another community. A volunteer had a community and they wanted to build a church and came to me and I said, sure, you know, I designed this church and I've got pictures of it under construction, but not completed.

[Assistant] Was that, it's not also CINVA-Ram, is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Year and a half at least in the country, a year and a half in Medellin.

[Assistant] It's pretty clear, I think. Is there anything further about the particular job you were doing? Did it change?

[User] No, it didn't. I mean, it didn't change. I mean, I think, I mean, the variety of things that I got to do besides the schools. I did a church in another community. A volunteer had a community and they wanted to build a church and came to me and I said, sure, you know, I designed this church and I've got pictures of it under construction, but not completed.

[Assistant] Was that, it's not also CINVA-Ram, is it?

[User]
I think it was brick. Yeah, masonry and wood. And then at the time, Sam Farr's father and a sister had come to Colombia to visit him. Maureen, who was absolutely wonderful in terms of her mobility through the society and the bureaucracy, had become very good friends with the son of a former president of Colombia, Alfonso Ospina. And they had a cattle ranch in another department west, north of, a very wealthy family, north of where we were in Medellin. Sam's sister fell from a horse when they were visiting, and she subsequently died. Very, very tragic.

And but Alfonso then funded a school, wanted to build a school for his workers and named it after her. And you know, and I designed it. I don't know if it was ever built. It's very strange. So, but anyway, but I went up there and spent some time there and designed the school for them.

[Assistant] It was just because of all the connections involved? And things were loose enough or flexible enough that you could do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it didn't. I mean, it didn't change. I mean, I think, I mean, the variety of things that I got to do besides the schools. I did a church in another community. A volunteer had a community and they wanted to build a church and came to me and I said, sure, you know, I designed this church and I've got pictures of it under construction, but not completed.

[Assistant] Was that, it's not also CINVA-Ram, is it?

[User]
I think it was brick. Yeah, masonry and wood. And then at the time, Sam Farr's father and a sister had come to Colombia to visit him. Maureen, who was absolutely wonderful in terms of her mobility through the society and the bureaucracy, had become very good friends with the son of a former president of Colombia, Alfonso Ospina. And they had a cattle ranch in another department west, north of, a very wealthy family, north of where we were in Medellin. Sam's sister fell from a horse when they were visiting, and she subsequently died. Very, very tragic.

And but Alfonso then funded a school, wanted to build a school for his workers and named it after her. And you know, and I designed it. I don't know if it was ever built. It's very strange. So, but anyway, but I went up there and spent some time there and designed the school for them.

[Assistant] It was just because of all the connections involved? And things were loose enough or flexible enough that you could do that?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense that you were accountable to anyone? You know, you had an office, you were working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think it was brick. Yeah, masonry and wood. And then at the time, Sam Farr's father and a sister had come to Colombia to visit him. Maureen, who was absolutely wonderful in terms of her mobility through the society and the bureaucracy, had become very good friends with the son of a former president of Colombia, Alfonso Ospina. And they had a cattle ranch in another department west, north of, a very wealthy family, north of where we were in Medellin. Sam's sister fell from a horse when they were visiting, and she subsequently died. Very, very tragic.

And but Alfonso then funded a school, wanted to build a school for his workers and named it after her. And you know, and I designed it. I don't know if it was ever built. It's very strange. So, but anyway, but I went up there and spent some time there and designed the school for them.

[Assistant] It was just because of all the connections involved? And things were loose enough or flexible enough that you could do that?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense that you were accountable to anyone? You know, you had an office, you were working.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I think. No. No, I didn't. I mean, you know, I was doing monthly reports and we had a director and the Peace Corps office and the architect with whom I was working, for whom I was working. Yeah, the local architect was, I think he was pretty loose about everything and there wasn't any real sense of, you know, wanted to know what we were doing and but no real strong control over things. I'd say, Raul, you know, Thursday, I'm going off to Yali, I'll be back in the office on Monday or Tuesday. He'd say, that's OK.

[Assistant] So at any point, let's go into the second year, was there a break between the first and second year? You must have had some leave time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense that you were accountable to anyone? You know, you had an office, you were working.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I think. No. No, I didn't. I mean, you know, I was doing monthly reports and we had a director and the Peace Corps office and the architect with whom I was working, for whom I was working. Yeah, the local architect was, I think he was pretty loose about everything and there wasn't any real sense of, you know, wanted to know what we were doing and but no real strong control over things. I'd say, Raul, you know, Thursday, I'm going off to Yali, I'll be back in the office on Monday or Tuesday. He'd say, that's OK.

[Assistant] So at any point, let's go into the second year, was there a break between the first and second year? You must have had some leave time.

[User] Oh, well, yeah, I mean, there was.

[Assistant] I mean, the Peace Corps has it built in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, no. I did take a vacation, but I don't remember when that was. But yeah, the couple of us that were in. Actually one of the people, one of the volunteers in Medellin was friendly with, was still very, very friendly with one of the volunteers from Venezuela. I think that's how it worked.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Anyway, I remember the three of us took a trip, an overland trip, to Quito from Medellin to Quito, which was a lot of fun and very interesting. Lots of stories about that thing, too. And then one of interesting parts about that was that on the way, wherever we stopped, made a couple of overnight stops we made was finding the local Peace Corps volunteers and crashing on their floors, which was perfectly natural?

[Assistant] Normal custom.

[User] That's right. Yes. I mean, so that was the big, um.

[Assistant] During the first year, had you been communicating back to friends and family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, I remember the three of us took a trip, an overland trip, to Quito from Medellin to Quito, which was a lot of fun and very interesting. Lots of stories about that thing, too. And then one of interesting parts about that was that on the way, wherever we stopped, made a couple of overnight stops we made was finding the local Peace Corps volunteers and crashing on their floors, which was perfectly natural?

[Assistant] Normal custom.

[User] That's right. Yes. I mean, so that was the big, um.

[Assistant] During the first year, had you been communicating back to friends and family?

[User] Yeah. You know, writing letters.

[Assistant] Mostly to family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Yes. I mean, so that was the big, um.

[Assistant] During the first year, had you been communicating back to friends and family?

[User] Yeah. You know, writing letters.

[Assistant] Mostly to family?

[User] Mostly to family, a couple of friends. But you know, mostly family.

[Assistant] And do they still exist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly to family, a couple of friends. But you know, mostly family.

[Assistant] And do they still exist?

[User] Yeah. I think they do. I think I've got them.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] The other interesting thing was, we had a telephone in our apartment, which just sort of came there. I talked to my parents once or twice, in maybe the two years I was there.

[Assistant] No family crises.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think they do. I think I've got them.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] The other interesting thing was, we had a telephone in our apartment, which just sort of came there. I talked to my parents once or twice, in maybe the two years I was there.

[Assistant] No family crises.

[User] No, no, no. Just a call Sunday morning or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, going in. There's a break and you're sort of going into your second year and it'll be 10 months or whatever. Do you recall the break, and at that point probably you're aware that you're not going to be in Colombia permanently? There's an end. And sometimes some volunteers will then say, well, before I go, I really would like to at least achieve this or get this done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other interesting thing was, we had a telephone in our apartment, which just sort of came there. I talked to my parents once or twice, in maybe the two years I was there.

[Assistant] No family crises.

[User] No, no, no. Just a call Sunday morning or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, going in. There's a break and you're sort of going into your second year and it'll be 10 months or whatever. Do you recall the break, and at that point probably you're aware that you're not going to be in Colombia permanently? There's an end. And sometimes some volunteers will then say, well, before I go, I really would like to at least achieve this or get this done.

[User] No, I don't think I had the feeling.

[Assistant] That you're aware of going into your second year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. Just a call Sunday morning or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, going in. There's a break and you're sort of going into your second year and it'll be 10 months or whatever. Do you recall the break, and at that point probably you're aware that you're not going to be in Colombia permanently? There's an end. And sometimes some volunteers will then say, well, before I go, I really would like to at least achieve this or get this done.

[User] No, I don't think I had the feeling.

[Assistant] That you're aware of going into your second year.

[User] Probably. But you know, and I know we had a. I should say, no, we probably had a conference, you know, went to Bogota and all met at the end of the first year. And we had one of these little mini get togethers. Yeah, what's happening, what's going on?

[Assistant] And when you got together, how did your experience match up to that of the others from your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think I had the feeling.

[Assistant] That you're aware of going into your second year.

[User] Probably. But you know, and I know we had a. I should say, no, we probably had a conference, you know, went to Bogota and all met at the end of the first year. And we had one of these little mini get togethers. Yeah, what's happening, what's going on?

[Assistant] And when you got together, how did your experience match up to that of the others from your training group?

[User] I'm just going to say probably pretty similar in terms of the kinds of, relatively speaking, the kinds of work we were doing and who we were working with and how the work was going.

[Assistant] And there weren't people who said, you know, it's impossible to work with these people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. But you know, and I know we had a. I should say, no, we probably had a conference, you know, went to Bogota and all met at the end of the first year. And we had one of these little mini get togethers. Yeah, what's happening, what's going on?

[Assistant] And when you got together, how did your experience match up to that of the others from your training group?

[User] I'm just going to say probably pretty similar in terms of the kinds of, relatively speaking, the kinds of work we were doing and who we were working with and how the work was going.

[Assistant] And there weren't people who said, you know, it's impossible to work with these people.

[User] No, I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] OK. And no one went home that you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm just going to say probably pretty similar in terms of the kinds of, relatively speaking, the kinds of work we were doing and who we were working with and how the work was going.

[Assistant] And there weren't people who said, you know, it's impossible to work with these people.

[User] No, I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] OK. And no one went home that you know?

[User] Not in our group. No, no one went home from our group.

[Assistant] In relation to the second year, I was thinking whether was there any point that you thought maybe it would be good if I could train a Colombian to be doing some of what I'm doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] OK. And no one went home that you know?

[User] Not in our group. No, no one went home from our group.

[Assistant] In relation to the second year, I was thinking whether was there any point that you thought maybe it would be good if I could train a Colombian to be doing some of what I'm doing?

[User] I don't know. That's a very good question, because somewhere during my second year, I don't remember what the timing was. My roommate's time was up. So he was getting ready to leave, but there was another fellow that came to work in the office after that.

[Assistant] Another Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in our group. No, no one went home from our group.

[Assistant] In relation to the second year, I was thinking whether was there any point that you thought maybe it would be good if I could train a Colombian to be doing some of what I'm doing?

[User] I don't know. That's a very good question, because somewhere during my second year, I don't remember what the timing was. My roommate's time was up. So he was getting ready to leave, but there was another fellow that came to work in the office after that.

[Assistant] Another Peace Corps?

[User] Another Peace Corps volunteer, yeah, another architect. And so Peter left. And I mean, Bill came before Peter left and then Peter left and Bill was there and then I left, and I don't know what happened after that.

[Assistant] So the continuity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. That's a very good question, because somewhere during my second year, I don't remember what the timing was. My roommate's time was up. So he was getting ready to leave, but there was another fellow that came to work in the office after that.

[Assistant] Another Peace Corps?

[User] Another Peace Corps volunteer, yeah, another architect. And so Peter left. And I mean, Bill came before Peter left and then Peter left and Bill was there and then I left, and I don't know what happened after that.

[Assistant] So the continuity?

[User] There was continuity.

[Assistant] And Bill moved in with you I assume.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Another Peace Corps volunteer, yeah, another architect. And so Peter left. And I mean, Bill came before Peter left and then Peter left and Bill was there and then I left, and I don't know what happened after that.

[Assistant] So the continuity?

[User] There was continuity.

[Assistant] And Bill moved in with you I assume.

[User] Yeah, he moved in. Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. So now as you're coming near the end, oh, another. During your time there, were you aware of political problems in the country? Did they impinge at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was continuity.

[Assistant] And Bill moved in with you I assume.

[User] Yeah, he moved in. Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. So now as you're coming near the end, oh, another. During your time there, were you aware of political problems in the country? Did they impinge at all?

[User] They didn't impinge. I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was, although if I look at my, I don't think it'll be on the film all. I remember one evening being out in Medellin and martial law has been declared, estado de citia, martial law, and I saw troops and tanks in the street in Medellin and I looked at them and I was kind of looking closely and my thought was, Christ, this stuff all came from the United States. Yeah, but that didn't last. I don't even remember what the issue was. I don't know if it was around an election or.

[Assistant] And you didn't feel threatened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he moved in. Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. So now as you're coming near the end, oh, another. During your time there, were you aware of political problems in the country? Did they impinge at all?

[User] They didn't impinge. I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was, although if I look at my, I don't think it'll be on the film all. I remember one evening being out in Medellin and martial law has been declared, estado de citia, martial law, and I saw troops and tanks in the street in Medellin and I looked at them and I was kind of looking closely and my thought was, Christ, this stuff all came from the United States. Yeah, but that didn't last. I don't even remember what the issue was. I don't know if it was around an election or.

[Assistant] And you didn't feel threatened?

[User] No, I didn't feel threatened at all. Not at all. It was interesting. I just had this sense of something's going on here.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps office in Bogota in touch at all about what was going on or giving advice or suggesting an evacuation plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't impinge. I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was, although if I look at my, I don't think it'll be on the film all. I remember one evening being out in Medellin and martial law has been declared, estado de citia, martial law, and I saw troops and tanks in the street in Medellin and I looked at them and I was kind of looking closely and my thought was, Christ, this stuff all came from the United States. Yeah, but that didn't last. I don't even remember what the issue was. I don't know if it was around an election or.

[Assistant] And you didn't feel threatened?

[User] No, I didn't feel threatened at all. Not at all. It was interesting. I just had this sense of something's going on here.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps office in Bogota in touch at all about what was going on or giving advice or suggesting an evacuation plan?

[User] No, I don't remember anything like that happening.

[Assistant] OK. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't feel threatened at all. Not at all. It was interesting. I just had this sense of something's going on here.

[Assistant] Was Peace Corps office in Bogota in touch at all about what was going on or giving advice or suggesting an evacuation plan?

[User] No, I don't remember anything like that happening.

[Assistant] OK. Go ahead.

[User] No, no. The whole time I was there, I mean, there were, there was, again, you know that we had discussion about there was a guerilla movement that was nascent and going on, but it wasn't here. It was somewhere out there in the jungles or whatever was happening.

[Assistant] Well, when you went out to the boonies to do the site visits, did you get any sense of unrest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember anything like that happening.

[Assistant] OK. Go ahead.

[User] No, no. The whole time I was there, I mean, there were, there was, again, you know that we had discussion about there was a guerilla movement that was nascent and going on, but it wasn't here. It was somewhere out there in the jungles or whatever was happening.

[Assistant] Well, when you went out to the boonies to do the site visits, did you get any sense of unrest?

[User] No, no. I didn't have any sense of it. Of course, just wasn't in the right places, I guess.

[Assistant] Well, for the most part, they were communities that had coalesced enough to be able to commit to a building project, which may say something about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. The whole time I was there, I mean, there were, there was, again, you know that we had discussion about there was a guerilla movement that was nascent and going on, but it wasn't here. It was somewhere out there in the jungles or whatever was happening.

[Assistant] Well, when you went out to the boonies to do the site visits, did you get any sense of unrest?

[User] No, no. I didn't have any sense of it. Of course, just wasn't in the right places, I guess.

[Assistant] Well, for the most part, they were communities that had coalesced enough to be able to commit to a building project, which may say something about that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So as you're coming to the end of your tour, what are your feelings about what you had accomplished, whether it had been worth it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I didn't have any sense of it. Of course, just wasn't in the right places, I guess.

[Assistant] Well, for the most part, they were communities that had coalesced enough to be able to commit to a building project, which may say something about that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So as you're coming to the end of your tour, what are your feelings about what you had accomplished, whether it had been worth it?

[User] Yeah, I think I felt that it had been worth it. I mean, I certainly enjoyed my time there, and I felt that professionally I had gotten a lot of experience that I never would have gotten if I had just gone to work in somebody's office right out of college here in the States. There's a lot of, you know, the opportunity to design and see built or at least started a lot of different projects, different types of projects. And I had responsibility for doing them. I'm not sure I knew much more right, but I certainly had a sense of accomplishment, both professionally and as well as working for the people that I was, you know, working with.

[Assistant] And now with this fabulous experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So as you're coming to the end of your tour, what are your feelings about what you had accomplished, whether it had been worth it?

[User] Yeah, I think I felt that it had been worth it. I mean, I certainly enjoyed my time there, and I felt that professionally I had gotten a lot of experience that I never would have gotten if I had just gone to work in somebody's office right out of college here in the States. There's a lot of, you know, the opportunity to design and see built or at least started a lot of different projects, different types of projects. And I had responsibility for doing them. I'm not sure I knew much more right, but I certainly had a sense of accomplishment, both professionally and as well as working for the people that I was, you know, working with.

[Assistant] And now with this fabulous experience.

[User] Now with this fabulous experience, I went home.

[Assistant] To face the draft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now with this fabulous experience, I went home.

[Assistant] To face the draft.

[User] To face the draft, right. I mean, one of the interesting, I mean, there are so many interesting little little things that happen, as you know, when you're a Peace Corps volunteer. One of them was going home. And so we had a choice of, at that time, of flying from Medellin to Miami, either on a jet or on a Super G Constellation or whatever. And if you took the Super G Constellation, it was a slower trip. It was less costly and you get the difference in cash between the two tickets. So guess what? But that was kind of fun because there we were in the back section of this, going to Miami, and I don't think Maureen was there. Sam was there, a couple of other volunteers, and we were just having a party going back to Miami.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So then I came home, and it was. Vietnam is happening and I don't want any part of that particularly. And I went up and applied for a job in the Army Corps of Engineers in Chicago, and I was hired as an architect.

[Assistant] While you were in Colombia, ere you aware of what was going on with American foreign policy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To face the draft, right. I mean, one of the interesting, I mean, there are so many interesting little little things that happen, as you know, when you're a Peace Corps volunteer. One of them was going home. And so we had a choice of, at that time, of flying from Medellin to Miami, either on a jet or on a Super G Constellation or whatever. And if you took the Super G Constellation, it was a slower trip. It was less costly and you get the difference in cash between the two tickets. So guess what? But that was kind of fun because there we were in the back section of this, going to Miami, and I don't think Maureen was there. Sam was there, a couple of other volunteers, and we were just having a party going back to Miami.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So then I came home, and it was. Vietnam is happening and I don't want any part of that particularly. And I went up and applied for a job in the Army Corps of Engineers in Chicago, and I was hired as an architect.

[Assistant] While you were in Colombia, ere you aware of what was going on with American foreign policy?

[User] Um, you know, what I read in the newspapers and in Time magazine. We got Time magazine over there. And I think it was in Spanish, but I usually picked up a copy of Time almost every week.

[Assistant] Do you remember if people you worked with, Colombians, were aware of the Vietnam War or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then I came home, and it was. Vietnam is happening and I don't want any part of that particularly. And I went up and applied for a job in the Army Corps of Engineers in Chicago, and I was hired as an architect.

[Assistant] While you were in Colombia, ere you aware of what was going on with American foreign policy?

[User] Um, you know, what I read in the newspapers and in Time magazine. We got Time magazine over there. And I think it was in Spanish, but I usually picked up a copy of Time almost every week.

[Assistant] Do you remember if people you worked with, Colombians, were aware of the Vietnam War or not?

[User] No, I don't. I don't remember at all. I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] One question about Medellin, of course, because it later became prominent in the drug trade. Were there any inklings of that or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, you know, what I read in the newspapers and in Time magazine. We got Time magazine over there. And I think it was in Spanish, but I usually picked up a copy of Time almost every week.

[Assistant] Do you remember if people you worked with, Colombians, were aware of the Vietnam War or not?

[User] No, I don't. I don't remember at all. I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] One question about Medellin, of course, because it later became prominent in the drug trade. Were there any inklings of that or?

[User] No, not when I was there. I mean, I'm fond of saying that the biggest cash crop at that time was coffee. And it was, personally, it was a great disappointment to me what happened and I still don't quite understand it because out of all, in my understanding, of all the other countries in Latin America, Colombia when I was there in the sixties, probably had ten centers of population of 100,000 or more, which is, you know, a good size. I mean, Evanston is 78,000. I mean, it's a good middle. And they had a tremendous middle class. I mean, it's true, there was a lot of rural poverty. There was a lot of urban poverty, but you had three cities. It wasn't like some of these other countries where you've got one city that continually grows because everybody's coming into those urban areas. I mean, Medellin was a half a million people. Bogota was probably a million. Cali at that time was 300,000. So these are three really good sized cities. Plus a lot of other cities scattered around the country, there is a big middle class. And I think we all felt very, very hopeful for the country, that there was this great middle class, that community development's going on, you know, and stuff. It all went to hell in a handbasket for a while.

[Assistant] Right. From the time you left, how long did Peace Corps stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't. I don't remember at all. I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] One question about Medellin, of course, because it later became prominent in the drug trade. Were there any inklings of that or?

[User] No, not when I was there. I mean, I'm fond of saying that the biggest cash crop at that time was coffee. And it was, personally, it was a great disappointment to me what happened and I still don't quite understand it because out of all, in my understanding, of all the other countries in Latin America, Colombia when I was there in the sixties, probably had ten centers of population of 100,000 or more, which is, you know, a good size. I mean, Evanston is 78,000. I mean, it's a good middle. And they had a tremendous middle class. I mean, it's true, there was a lot of rural poverty. There was a lot of urban poverty, but you had three cities. It wasn't like some of these other countries where you've got one city that continually grows because everybody's coming into those urban areas. I mean, Medellin was a half a million people. Bogota was probably a million. Cali at that time was 300,000. So these are three really good sized cities. Plus a lot of other cities scattered around the country, there is a big middle class. And I think we all felt very, very hopeful for the country, that there was this great middle class, that community development's going on, you know, and stuff. It all went to hell in a handbasket for a while.

[Assistant] Right. From the time you left, how long did Peace Corps stay?

[User] Maybe, I want to say '82 maybe.

[Assistant] So it was there continuously through the sixties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not when I was there. I mean, I'm fond of saying that the biggest cash crop at that time was coffee. And it was, personally, it was a great disappointment to me what happened and I still don't quite understand it because out of all, in my understanding, of all the other countries in Latin America, Colombia when I was there in the sixties, probably had ten centers of population of 100,000 or more, which is, you know, a good size. I mean, Evanston is 78,000. I mean, it's a good middle. And they had a tremendous middle class. I mean, it's true, there was a lot of rural poverty. There was a lot of urban poverty, but you had three cities. It wasn't like some of these other countries where you've got one city that continually grows because everybody's coming into those urban areas. I mean, Medellin was a half a million people. Bogota was probably a million. Cali at that time was 300,000. So these are three really good sized cities. Plus a lot of other cities scattered around the country, there is a big middle class. And I think we all felt very, very hopeful for the country, that there was this great middle class, that community development's going on, you know, and stuff. It all went to hell in a handbasket for a while.

[Assistant] Right. From the time you left, how long did Peace Corps stay?

[User] Maybe, I want to say '82 maybe.

[Assistant] So it was there continuously through the sixties.

[User] It was there continuously through the sixties, maybe up until '82.

[Assistant] Oh OK. Few questions following up. You came back to Chicago. You went to work for the Corps of Engineers. Were you able to maintain any contact with friends back in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe, I want to say '82 maybe.

[Assistant] So it was there continuously through the sixties.

[User] It was there continuously through the sixties, maybe up until '82.

[Assistant] Oh OK. Few questions following up. You came back to Chicago. You went to work for the Corps of Engineers. Were you able to maintain any contact with friends back in Colombia?

[User] No, I didn't. A couple of Christmas cards here and there, and it just sort of petered out.

[Assistant] Were you able to make use of your bilinguality? I mean, it must have been a curiosity to come back into the uni-lingual of American society.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was there continuously through the sixties, maybe up until '82.

[Assistant] Oh OK. Few questions following up. You came back to Chicago. You went to work for the Corps of Engineers. Were you able to maintain any contact with friends back in Colombia?

[User] No, I didn't. A couple of Christmas cards here and there, and it just sort of petered out.

[Assistant] Were you able to make use of your bilinguality? I mean, it must have been a curiosity to come back into the uni-lingual of American society.

[User] Well, in 1966, there was not as much Spanish being spoken in this country as there is today. So that's kind of. But yeah, buy you know, I started to travel. I went to Mexico, went to Spain several times. Went to Israel and had a conversation with somebody who spoke Ladino. And so.

[Assistant] Yeah. But within the work environment here, the fact that you knew Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't. A couple of Christmas cards here and there, and it just sort of petered out.

[Assistant] Were you able to make use of your bilinguality? I mean, it must have been a curiosity to come back into the uni-lingual of American society.

[User] Well, in 1966, there was not as much Spanish being spoken in this country as there is today. So that's kind of. But yeah, buy you know, I started to travel. I went to Mexico, went to Spain several times. Went to Israel and had a conversation with somebody who spoke Ladino. And so.

[Assistant] Yeah. But within the work environment here, the fact that you knew Spanish.

[User] No. And it really hasn't been until maybe the last, until the nineties, really when I run across situations where I could use the Spanish in the city.

[Assistant] It's obvious you've also been able to stay in touch with some of the people who served with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in 1966, there was not as much Spanish being spoken in this country as there is today. So that's kind of. But yeah, buy you know, I started to travel. I went to Mexico, went to Spain several times. Went to Israel and had a conversation with somebody who spoke Ladino. And so.

[Assistant] Yeah. But within the work environment here, the fact that you knew Spanish.

[User] No. And it really hasn't been until maybe the last, until the nineties, really when I run across situations where I could use the Spanish in the city.

[Assistant] It's obvious you've also been able to stay in touch with some of the people who served with you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you mentioned that recently you made a trip back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. And it really hasn't been until maybe the last, until the nineties, really when I run across situations where I could use the Spanish in the city.

[Assistant] It's obvious you've also been able to stay in touch with some of the people who served with you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you mentioned that recently you made a trip back.

[User] Yeah. In February 2008, in Cartagena, there was a conference for volunteers that had served in Colombia.

[Assistant] Who organized the conference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you mentioned that recently you made a trip back.

[User] Yeah. In February 2008, in Cartagena, there was a conference for volunteers that had served in Colombia.

[Assistant] Who organized the conference?

[User] It was a joint effort between the Colombian Embassy, Colombian government through their embassy in Washington, and Friends of Colombia, the organization of returned Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And I gather that Peace Corps is currently in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In February 2008, in Cartagena, there was a conference for volunteers that had served in Colombia.

[Assistant] Who organized the conference?

[User] It was a joint effort between the Colombian Embassy, Colombian government through their embassy in Washington, and Friends of Colombia, the organization of returned Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And I gather that Peace Corps is currently in Colombia?

[User] They're not.

[Assistant] It is not. OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a joint effort between the Colombian Embassy, Colombian government through their embassy in Washington, and Friends of Colombia, the organization of returned Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And I gather that Peace Corps is currently in Colombia?

[User] They're not.

[Assistant] It is not. OK.

[User] But President Uribe recently sent a letter to the Peace Corps requesting Peace Corps volunteers return to the country.

[Assistant] Going to the Cartagena conference, was there a sense that this was to be PR, that maybe to bring a little light to the idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're not.

[Assistant] It is not. OK.

[User] But President Uribe recently sent a letter to the Peace Corps requesting Peace Corps volunteers return to the country.

[Assistant] Going to the Cartagena conference, was there a sense that this was to be PR, that maybe to bring a little light to the idea?

[User] Maybe that was, I don't know if that was overt, but I mean, I think two things happened. First of all, there were over two hundred people that came to the conference from all the States and a lot of.

[Assistant] All returned volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But President Uribe recently sent a letter to the Peace Corps requesting Peace Corps volunteers return to the country.

[Assistant] Going to the Cartagena conference, was there a sense that this was to be PR, that maybe to bring a little light to the idea?

[User] Maybe that was, I don't know if that was overt, but I mean, I think two things happened. First of all, there were over two hundred people that came to the conference from all the States and a lot of.

[Assistant] All returned volunteers?

[User] No, not at all. But I don't know what the total number of returned volunteers was, but they brought family. I mean, kids, friends,

[Assistant] CIA agents, probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all. But I don't know what the total number of returned volunteers was, but they brought family. I mean, kids, friends,

[Assistant] CIA agents, probably.

[User] But I mean, but having 200 people come to that conference and some people like myself haven't been back to Colombia since they served.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And people were just so overjoyed to be back and to be there. And so I saw two of the people, two of the other people that were in my group who were there and we reconnected. We sort of, you know, maybe had a little contact, but not a lot. You know, once every 15 years or something. But we reconnected and that was nice. And um, but President Uribe spoke. He came, we had. I guess if we were diplomats, you'd say we had briefings by people in the Colombian government. I mean, we, the defense minister spoke to us about the situation, what's going on in Colombia. We had commerce and we had people from NGOs that spoke about what their programs are, what's going on. So I mean, we had a really big overview of what's happening in Colombia.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to get to Medellin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I mean, but having 200 people come to that conference and some people like myself haven't been back to Colombia since they served.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And people were just so overjoyed to be back and to be there. And so I saw two of the people, two of the other people that were in my group who were there and we reconnected. We sort of, you know, maybe had a little contact, but not a lot. You know, once every 15 years or something. But we reconnected and that was nice. And um, but President Uribe spoke. He came, we had. I guess if we were diplomats, you'd say we had briefings by people in the Colombian government. I mean, we, the defense minister spoke to us about the situation, what's going on in Colombia. We had commerce and we had people from NGOs that spoke about what their programs are, what's going on. So I mean, we had a really big overview of what's happening in Colombia.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to get to Medellin?

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah. We went, there was a group of us that went to Medellin.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And people were just so overjoyed to be back and to be there. And so I saw two of the people, two of the other people that were in my group who were there and we reconnected. We sort of, you know, maybe had a little contact, but not a lot. You know, once every 15 years or something. But we reconnected and that was nice. And um, but President Uribe spoke. He came, we had. I guess if we were diplomats, you'd say we had briefings by people in the Colombian government. I mean, we, the defense minister spoke to us about the situation, what's going on in Colombia. We had commerce and we had people from NGOs that spoke about what their programs are, what's going on. So I mean, we had a really big overview of what's happening in Colombia.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to get to Medellin?

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah. We went, there was a group of us that went to Medellin.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being back?

[User] Well, it was, you know, it was not that things change. They now have a metro and it's above ground, so it's very obvious. It goes through the center of the city where we used to hang out. And the center of the city where we used to hang out and the street where we used to hang out in the restaurants is a pedestrian, is a pedestrian mall. And where we used to be is now thought of as not the best place to be. And that's moved out to what used to be kind of a little suburban community that was just a little little tiny place.

[Assistant] How was your Spanish when you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah. We went, there was a group of us that went to Medellin.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being back?

[User] Well, it was, you know, it was not that things change. They now have a metro and it's above ground, so it's very obvious. It goes through the center of the city where we used to hang out. And the center of the city where we used to hang out and the street where we used to hang out in the restaurants is a pedestrian, is a pedestrian mall. And where we used to be is now thought of as not the best place to be. And that's moved out to what used to be kind of a little suburban community that was just a little little tiny place.

[Assistant] How was your Spanish when you went?

[User] About half of my Spanish was fine. Yeah, I mean, I was. Maureen, when she was a volunteer in a community up in the hills above Medellin, had helped her community build a school. They named the school after her and she has been actively involved with that school for quite a while now. I think there was a time during the big drug stuff going on where she was not going there, but now she goes, she goes back, maybe once or twice a year, maybe twice a year. That school is becoming a model for bilingual schools. It's a grammar school.

[Assistant] And bilingual being?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was, you know, it was not that things change. They now have a metro and it's above ground, so it's very obvious. It goes through the center of the city where we used to hang out. And the center of the city where we used to hang out and the street where we used to hang out in the restaurants is a pedestrian, is a pedestrian mall. And where we used to be is now thought of as not the best place to be. And that's moved out to what used to be kind of a little suburban community that was just a little little tiny place.

[Assistant] How was your Spanish when you went?

[User] About half of my Spanish was fine. Yeah, I mean, I was. Maureen, when she was a volunteer in a community up in the hills above Medellin, had helped her community build a school. They named the school after her and she has been actively involved with that school for quite a while now. I think there was a time during the big drug stuff going on where she was not going there, but now she goes, she goes back, maybe once or twice a year, maybe twice a year. That school is becoming a model for bilingual schools. It's a grammar school.

[Assistant] And bilingual being?

[User] English and Spanish. She's done a tremendous job in terms of getting money for the school, for teacher training, for technology. She started one laptop per child in that school. She got, I think it was Hewlett Packard donated a whole bunch of computers and went there, and these kids are, these kids.

[Assistant] And so you visited the school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About half of my Spanish was fine. Yeah, I mean, I was. Maureen, when she was a volunteer in a community up in the hills above Medellin, had helped her community build a school. They named the school after her and she has been actively involved with that school for quite a while now. I think there was a time during the big drug stuff going on where she was not going there, but now she goes, she goes back, maybe once or twice a year, maybe twice a year. That school is becoming a model for bilingual schools. It's a grammar school.

[Assistant] And bilingual being?

[User] English and Spanish. She's done a tremendous job in terms of getting money for the school, for teacher training, for technology. She started one laptop per child in that school. She got, I think it was Hewlett Packard donated a whole bunch of computers and went there, and these kids are, these kids.

[Assistant] And so you visited the school.

[User] We visited the school. A bunch of us visited the school.

[Assistant] Now is Friends of Colombia now supporting the school or helping?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I don't know if the organization, but anyway, but the Spanish. So what I wanted to say was that so when we were there, they had a ceremony, you know, looking back on the volunteers in Medellin and the newspaper was there and they interviewed me and I had no problem with it, the conversation.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Yeah. So the Spanish came, you know, came back. And well I've been using it, speaking it.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah, so the language has been very useful.

[Assistant] So sort of to wrap up, what do you think the impact of the Peace Corps service was on your own life? [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so the language has been very useful.

[Assistant] So sort of to wrap up, what do you think the impact of the Peace Corps service was on your own life? [tape break]

[User] And where they live. So we become much more sensitive to other cultures and to how people get along with each other based on their cultural framework or context, you know, things are just different. And it certainly gave me a desire to travel, which I and we've done a lot of, yeah, a lot of traveling. I love it, you know, going different places. It gave me the language which is, you know, fun and useful. It also. The thing that came to my mind, which is really, I suppose, good or bad, I'm not indifferent to, but I can ignore somebody sitting on the street cross- legged with their hands up and their hat out.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] I mean, there was just so much of that. I don't know what your experience was in Ghana. There was so much of that going on in the, you know, in the cities in Colombia in the sixties, you know.

[Assistant] Have you particularly followed Colombian affairs or it's not that easy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And where they live. So we become much more sensitive to other cultures and to how people get along with each other based on their cultural framework or context, you know, things are just different. And it certainly gave me a desire to travel, which I and we've done a lot of, yeah, a lot of traveling. I love it, you know, going different places. It gave me the language which is, you know, fun and useful. It also. The thing that came to my mind, which is really, I suppose, good or bad, I'm not indifferent to, but I can ignore somebody sitting on the street cross- legged with their hands up and their hat out.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] I mean, there was just so much of that. I don't know what your experience was in Ghana. There was so much of that going on in the, you know, in the cities in Colombia in the sixties, you know.

[Assistant] Have you particularly followed Colombian affairs or it's not that easy?

[User] Um, I have, you know, from time to time. I mean, when I first came back, I subscribed to a magazine, maybe it was Decision, that was published in Latin America. Anyway, it was kind of like a Latin American Time magazine. And there's a lot of, or Colombian Time magazine. And you know, I did from time to time. And it's interesting because I mean, the drug war, that whole drug thing is kind of like, you know, I. Yes, I've seen programs and how it started and everything, but I still don't understand how it got a foothold. And then with all this stuff that's going on in Mexico, I commented to Carol, I said, Mexico sounds like Colombia 20 years ago.

[Assistant] Yeah. But based on your own experience of Colombia, it's the puzzle. It's hard to understand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, there was just so much of that. I don't know what your experience was in Ghana. There was so much of that going on in the, you know, in the cities in Colombia in the sixties, you know.

[Assistant] Have you particularly followed Colombian affairs or it's not that easy?

[User] Um, I have, you know, from time to time. I mean, when I first came back, I subscribed to a magazine, maybe it was Decision, that was published in Latin America. Anyway, it was kind of like a Latin American Time magazine. And there's a lot of, or Colombian Time magazine. And you know, I did from time to time. And it's interesting because I mean, the drug war, that whole drug thing is kind of like, you know, I. Yes, I've seen programs and how it started and everything, but I still don't understand how it got a foothold. And then with all this stuff that's going on in Mexico, I commented to Carol, I said, Mexico sounds like Colombia 20 years ago.

[Assistant] Yeah. But based on your own experience of Colombia, it's the puzzle. It's hard to understand.

[User] Yeah. Well, maybe next. I don't know.

[Assistant] Would you recommend, if a young person came to you today or an old person, would you recommend they join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I have, you know, from time to time. I mean, when I first came back, I subscribed to a magazine, maybe it was Decision, that was published in Latin America. Anyway, it was kind of like a Latin American Time magazine. And there's a lot of, or Colombian Time magazine. And you know, I did from time to time. And it's interesting because I mean, the drug war, that whole drug thing is kind of like, you know, I. Yes, I've seen programs and how it started and everything, but I still don't understand how it got a foothold. And then with all this stuff that's going on in Mexico, I commented to Carol, I said, Mexico sounds like Colombia 20 years ago.

[Assistant] Yeah. But based on your own experience of Colombia, it's the puzzle. It's hard to understand.

[User] Yeah. Well, maybe next. I don't know.

[Assistant] Would you recommend, if a young person came to you today or an old person, would you recommend they join the Peace Corps?

[User] Absolutely. After a lot of hesitation. It's great. It's great. We tried to get. My son wasn't interested. Daughter wasn't interested. It was kind of like, you know, absolutely wonderful.

[Assistant] Anything else you'd like to say to the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a matter of fact, Harrington, although an excellent teacher; his ambition was to become an administrator.

[Assistant] He was the president ofthe University ofWisconsin when I was there in the late 1960s.

[User] I remember that. As a matter of fact, I kept in touch with Harrington until he died. But before he became the head ofthe school at Madison, an opening had occurred at Hawaii. You may not know this, Tim, but he applied for the job at Hawaii, was accepted, but in them meantime the job opened at Madison. So he did some quick legwork and got the job at Madison. He was there, by the way, during the Vietnam War.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] From the reports I got, he kept a very low profile, and probably steered the school in a fairly decent and safe course during those bad times at Madison.

[Assistant] When you arrived at the Archives, for what part of the Archives did you originally work, and what kind oftraining, either on-the-job or course kind oftraining, did the Archives provide to new employees at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember that. As a matter of fact, I kept in touch with Harrington until he died. But before he became the head ofthe school at Madison, an opening had occurred at Hawaii. You may not know this, Tim, but he applied for the job at Hawaii, was accepted, but in them meantime the job opened at Madison. So he did some quick legwork and got the job at Madison. He was there, by the way, during the Vietnam War.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] From the reports I got, he kept a very low profile, and probably steered the school in a fairly decent and safe course during those bad times at Madison.

[Assistant] When you arrived at the Archives, for what part of the Archives did you originally work, and what kind oftraining, either on-the-job or course kind oftraining, did the Archives provide to new employees at that point?

[User] I'll take you up on training first. Only a few days had I been there when my supervisqr said, "We have a man here in town, the famous German archivist who fled Germany in 1937 or 1938, and he gives a course in archives administration. You should take it." I replied to my supervisor, ''Not this week. I want to work here for at least six months before I take any courses." And I'm glad I did. At the end ofsix months, or seven months, I did sign up for Dr. Posner's course. Ernst Posner was his name. He was an excellent teacher. I learned a lot from him, but after working at the Archives for seven months I understood what he was talking about. Unfortunately, some ofmy colleagues took the course immediately, and much ofit went over their heads.

[Assistant] Was he teaching at American University at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the reports I got, he kept a very low profile, and probably steered the school in a fairly decent and safe course during those bad times at Madison.

[Assistant] When you arrived at the Archives, for what part of the Archives did you originally work, and what kind oftraining, either on-the-job or course kind oftraining, did the Archives provide to new employees at that point?

[User] I'll take you up on training first. Only a few days had I been there when my supervisqr said, "We have a man here in town, the famous German archivist who fled Germany in 1937 or 1938, and he gives a course in archives administration. You should take it." I replied to my supervisor, ''Not this week. I want to work here for at least six months before I take any courses." And I'm glad I did. At the end ofsix months, or seven months, I did sign up for Dr. Posner's course. Ernst Posner was his name. He was an excellent teacher. I learned a lot from him, but after working at the Archives for seven months I understood what he was talking about. Unfortunately, some ofmy colleagues took the course immediately, and much ofit went over their heads.

[Assistant] Was he teaching at American University at that time?

[User] He was associated with A.U., but his classes were held at Archives I.

[Assistant] Oh, really? ,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll take you up on training first. Only a few days had I been there when my supervisqr said, "We have a man here in town, the famous German archivist who fled Germany in 1937 or 1938, and he gives a course in archives administration. You should take it." I replied to my supervisor, ''Not this week. I want to work here for at least six months before I take any courses." And I'm glad I did. At the end ofsix months, or seven months, I did sign up for Dr. Posner's course. Ernst Posner was his name. He was an excellent teacher. I learned a lot from him, but after working at the Archives for seven months I understood what he was talking about. Unfortunately, some ofmy colleagues took the course immediately, and much ofit went over their heads.

[Assistant] Was he teaching at American University at that time?

[User] He was associated with A.U., but his classes were held at Archives I.

[Assistant] Oh, really? ,

[User] Also, when I first arrived, I was assigned to the War Records Office, which had been created some months before. The War Records Office was headed by Dr. Campbell, actually; he's the one who hired me; after I got in the building and had the first interview with me. Ned Campbell. He was fairly young at the time, 31 or 32. But one of the first things he said to me was, "I hope you have good common sense." He said, "Unfortunately over the last few months we have had young people come in here with good backgrounds but no common sense. I hope you have good common sense." That is something I have never forgotten.

[Assistant] I can just imagine Dr. Campbell saying that. He was the office head when I came to the Archives in 1970.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was associated with A.U., but his classes were held at Archives I.

[Assistant] Oh, really? ,

[User] Also, when I first arrived, I was assigned to the War Records Office, which had been created some months before. The War Records Office was headed by Dr. Campbell, actually; he's the one who hired me; after I got in the building and had the first interview with me. Ned Campbell. He was fairly young at the time, 31 or 32. But one of the first things he said to me was, "I hope you have good common sense." He said, "Unfortunately over the last few months we have had young people come in here with good backgrounds but no common sense. I hope you have good common sense." That is something I have never forgotten.

[Assistant] I can just imagine Dr. Campbell saying that. He was the office head when I came to the Archives in 1970.

[User] He stressed that. He also said, "You're from Arkansas, I want to explain Washington, D.C. to you." He started to give me a short lecture on the relations between whites and blacks. And I stopped him and said, "Look, in the past I have worked as a checkout in a food store in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I also worked with all sorts of people; I worked for American Can in Los Angeles." He said, "End oflecture."

[Assistant] So, was there on-the-job training for new archivists at that point, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He stressed that. He also said, "You're from Arkansas, I want to explain Washington, D.C. to you." He started to give me a short lecture on the relations between whites and blacks. And I stopped him and said, "Look, in the past I have worked as a checkout in a food store in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I also worked with all sorts of people; I worked for American Can in Los Angeles." He said, "End oflecture."

[Assistant] So, was there on-the-job training for new archivists at that point, too?

[User] Only Posner.

[Assistant] Just Posner?

[User] Posner, that's it.

[Assistant] Who were some ofthe other people who were in leadership positions at the Archives at this time? We're talking about 1945, which is about ten years into the existence ofthe Archives, so I imagine some ofthe "founding fathers" were still around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Connor. Then Buck was the second one. Buck remained there for a number ofyears, but I did not see much ofBuck. I was told by my supervisors that Buck wanted to see everything--everything--he wanted everything to pass over his desk. Each paper that passed over he would put his initials in the comer ofthe page. Also, in the Archives when I first arrived was Dr. Irvine. I don't know what job he had before I arrived, but by the time I got there he had been sort ofpushed aside, I believe, by the front office. I had quite a bit ofcontact with him some time later. My immediate supervisor was Dr. Campbell. Campbell was the one who interviewed me. Campbell was head ofthe division, but he had two branch chiefs. One headed the Navy branch, and one headed the Army branch. I was assigned to the Navy branch, under Dr. Locky, who had been there for a number ofyears. Locky liked me in the beginning, too, fortunately. As a matter of fact, when I reported to work, after talking to Campbell and Locky, Locky gave me a desk in his own office. He explained to me, that they had been having problems getting records back from various agencies. Back in those days the Archives lent documents--a massive number of documents--to the agencies around town. A lot ofNavy records, especially, went to the Navy. For a lot ofagencies, they had a hard tiqie getting them back. Locky said to me, "Your job is to get those documents back here."

[Assistant] This was just at the end ofthe war, and a lot ofagencies actually had people working in the Archives exploiting the records for wartime purposes.

[User] Well, the Navy hadn't had people there for many, many years. However-

[Assistant] They had up until the 1970s--

[User] These were agencies, I am talking about, that would call us up on the phone, saying, "Please send this document over to us--"

[Assistant] Just like the Records Centers today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Navy hadn't had people there for many, many years. However-

[Assistant] They had up until the 1970s--

[User] These were agencies, I am talking about, that would call us up on the phone, saying, "Please send this document over to us--"

[Assistant] Just like the Records Centers today.

[User] But when I arrived, the lending system was in a mess. Locky had each archivist in his branch handle these documents that were lent out, and apparently the archivists were not doing a very good job in getting them back. So the first two days I was on the job, Locky personally, without any knowledge or any warning, he went to the desk in the stacks of each archivist. He took the little box that contained all the slips--

[Assistant] Of what had been lent--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These were agencies, I am talking about, that would call us up on the phone, saying, "Please send this document over to us--"

[Assistant] Just like the Records Centers today.

[User] But when I arrived, the lending system was in a mess. Locky had each archivist in his branch handle these documents that were lent out, and apparently the archivists were not doing a very good job in getting them back. So the first two days I was on the job, Locky personally, without any knowledge or any warning, he went to the desk in the stacks of each archivist. He took the little box that contained all the slips--

[Assistant] Of what had been lent--

[User] That had been charged out. He transferred without any knowledge or any comment to these archivists, he picked up the boxes from each desk, and brought them to my desk. I immediately got on the phone and started calling these various agencies. Many times they had been out for over 90 days, they'll say, "Oh, but we still need them." I'd say, "That's OK, just send them back to me and I'll re-charge them." I did that for quite a while. By the way, I came in at what today is a GS-3. It was something else, but it was the equivalent ofwhat is now a GS-3. Having been in Navy for a few months, my supervisor alerted me that there was a job opening in Army, or Military, branch, and I could have it ifl wanted it. So I immediately went to Military.

[Assistant] Who was the chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But when I arrived, the lending system was in a mess. Locky had each archivist in his branch handle these documents that were lent out, and apparently the archivists were not doing a very good job in getting them back. So the first two days I was on the job, Locky personally, without any knowledge or any warning, he went to the desk in the stacks of each archivist. He took the little box that contained all the slips--

[Assistant] Of what had been lent--

[User] That had been charged out. He transferred without any knowledge or any comment to these archivists, he picked up the boxes from each desk, and brought them to my desk. I immediately got on the phone and started calling these various agencies. Many times they had been out for over 90 days, they'll say, "Oh, but we still need them." I'd say, "That's OK, just send them back to me and I'll re-charge them." I did that for quite a while. By the way, I came in at what today is a GS-3. It was something else, but it was the equivalent ofwhat is now a GS-3. Having been in Navy for a few months, my supervisor alerted me that there was a job opening in Army, or Military, branch, and I could have it ifl wanted it. So I immediately went to Military.

[Assistant] Who was the chief?

[User] The branch ofthat--Military, under Campbell, ofcourse--the name escapes me. He, unlike Locky and Campbell, did not have a Ph.D. He had four years ofcollege. He was an excellent, excellent administrator and a good archivist. He used to boast to me the number; he used to say, "I have packed more archives boxes than the whole building combined."

[Assistant] What were your initial impressions ofthe National Archives after you joined it, coming out ofschool?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] --what was going on in that building. Some years after I had been there a top official went to a conference down in Texas. He came back and said, "No one knows anything about us!" So? Of course! They had a husband and wife who would come to the Archives from Tennessee, before I arrived. He had a top job there; his name escapes me now, but his wife, I learned, was one ofhis former students. Apparently he had fallen in love with his student, and married her, and for various reasons had to leave Tennessee. They both came to Archives, and she, too, worked at Archives. Her job was supposedly what Susan Cooper does today .. But the Archives top management gave her no support. As a matter offact they discouraged her from getting the news out about the National Archives.

[Assistant] I have got a couple of--

[User] And she remained there for a number ofyears, but eventually she went to the Library ofCongress, and became vice-president, or assistant librarian, for public affairs!

[Assistant] You mentioned that so few people knew what the Archives was about, and you talked a little bit about some ofyour early jobs, which in my mind raise the question, did archivists then do multi-tasks, or were you more functionally organized like we are today, where there are separate reference units, projects units, and appraisal units? Or did you tend to do a little bit of all?

[User] When I first arrived, Reference was one of the top, top concerns ofDr. Campbell, and Dr. Locky, and also Dr. Elizabeth Greary.

[Assistant] Was the clientele other government agencies, or the public, or--?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she remained there for a number ofyears, but eventually she went to the Library ofCongress, and became vice-president, or assistant librarian, for public affairs!

[Assistant] You mentioned that so few people knew what the Archives was about, and you talked a little bit about some ofyour early jobs, which in my mind raise the question, did archivists then do multi-tasks, or were you more functionally organized like we are today, where there are separate reference units, projects units, and appraisal units? Or did you tend to do a little bit of all?

[User] When I first arrived, Reference was one of the top, top concerns ofDr. Campbell, and Dr. Locky, and also Dr. Elizabeth Greary.

[Assistant] Was the clientele other government agencies, or the public, or--?

[User] Both. Dr. Locky was my supervisor, but Dr. Elizabeth Greary was in charge ofReference for both Army and Navy. I owe a lot to her. She did everything she could for me. We liked each other from day one, and I worked very closely with her. In those early days I heard very little about projects, which I am sure was going on, but--

[Assistant] So it was mostly reference work from the very beginning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I first arrived, Reference was one of the top, top concerns ofDr. Campbell, and Dr. Locky, and also Dr. Elizabeth Greary.

[Assistant] Was the clientele other government agencies, or the public, or--?

[User] Both. Dr. Locky was my supervisor, but Dr. Elizabeth Greary was in charge ofReference for both Army and Navy. I owe a lot to her. She did everything she could for me. We liked each other from day one, and I worked very closely with her. In those early days I heard very little about projects, which I am sure was going on, but--

[Assistant] So it was mostly reference work from the very beginning?

[User] For me. As I say, each branch may have had people who worked on projects, but invariably I heard very little about it.

[Assistant] Do you recollect how big, say, the Army branch was back then, so we get some sense ofthe scale ofthe agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both. Dr. Locky was my supervisor, but Dr. Elizabeth Greary was in charge ofReference for both Army and Navy. I owe a lot to her. She did everything she could for me. We liked each other from day one, and I worked very closely with her. In those early days I heard very little about projects, which I am sure was going on, but--

[Assistant] So it was mostly reference work from the very beginning?

[User] For me. As I say, each branch may have had people who worked on projects, but invariably I heard very little about it.

[Assistant] Do you recollect how big, say, the Army branch was back then, so we get some sense ofthe scale ofthe agency?

[User]
I simply don't recall the number ofpeople in the Army branch, or even the Navy branch, including the secretaries; I don't recall. [End ofTape 1, Side 1] [Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

--once I went to Army branch, I no longer worked with Navy records, no longer bugging Navy agencies and offices to return records. However, I did some ofthat in Army, because in those early days, the Army, especially the G-2 people in the Pentagon, were calling us two or three times a day for MID [Military Intelligence Division] documents. All classified, every time.

[Assistant] So you had that main collection of interwar MID files--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For me. As I say, each branch may have had people who worked on projects, but invariably I heard very little about it.

[Assistant] Do you recollect how big, say, the Army branch was back then, so we get some sense ofthe scale ofthe agency?

[User]
I simply don't recall the number ofpeople in the Army branch, or even the Navy branch, including the secretaries; I don't recall. [End ofTape 1, Side 1] [Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

--once I went to Army branch, I no longer worked with Navy records, no longer bugging Navy agencies and offices to return records. However, I did some ofthat in Army, because in those early days, the Army, especially the G-2 people in the Pentagon, were calling us two or three times a day for MID [Military Intelligence Division] documents. All classified, every time.

[Assistant] So you had that main collection of interwar MID files--

[User] 1917to 1941--

[Assistant] --At that early date?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1917to 1941--

[Assistant] --At that early date?

[User] They were in the building when I arrived.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] All classified. By the way, besides the Army, I worked with 19th-century records for a while. Beautiful handwriting, but it is hard for me to read.

[Assistant] Right, it still is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All classified. By the way, besides the Army, I worked with 19th-century records for a while. Beautiful handwriting, but it is hard for me to read.

[Assistant] Right, it still is.

[User] But, 1945, 1946, 1947 was a time when a great many wartime records were commgm.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] One ofthe first records _that I worked with that came in, that I packed boxes ofrecords and did reference on, was the Office of Civilian Defense. Also, in the early days I started to open boxes, especially intelligence documents. This is something I learned and something I have never forgotten, that I still tell people about it. These prewar war plans: Orange, for Japan; Black for Germany; and so forth. They always intrigued me. Also in Military Intelligence, I learned for the first time that in the 1920s, Japanese writers were constantly writing stories--all fiction, but still stories--about war with the U.S. In the 20s I doubt any American writers would write about a war with Japan, but there was a lot ofthat in Japan in the 1920s.

[Assistant] Since this was right after the war, and you mentioned that there were a lot ofrecords being retired to the Archives; but were staff members who had been in the service or doing other kinds ofwar work, were they retuning to the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, 1945, 1946, 1947 was a time when a great many wartime records were commgm.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] One ofthe first records _that I worked with that came in, that I packed boxes ofrecords and did reference on, was the Office of Civilian Defense. Also, in the early days I started to open boxes, especially intelligence documents. This is something I learned and something I have never forgotten, that I still tell people about it. These prewar war plans: Orange, for Japan; Black for Germany; and so forth. They always intrigued me. Also in Military Intelligence, I learned for the first time that in the 1920s, Japanese writers were constantly writing stories--all fiction, but still stories--about war with the U.S. In the 20s I doubt any American writers would write about a war with Japan, but there was a lot ofthat in Japan in the 1920s.

[Assistant] Since this was right after the war, and you mentioned that there were a lot ofrecords being retired to the Archives; but were staff members who had been in the service or doing other kinds ofwar work, were they retuning to the Archives?

[User] Oh, no--

[Assistant] Was there a big influx ofold staff and new staff at the same time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, even before the intelligence records, in the beginning; the War Production Board records came in 194 7, and the Nuremberg records came in 1948-49. For many years, I got a reputation in the building and also outside the building, as the lead archivist for both ofthose groups: the Nuremberg, and the War Production Board. But at the same time, I was working with other groups, too. I did a lot ofwork in RG 153, Army JAG [Judge Advocate General]. I packed a lot ofrecords that came in and did a lot ofreference on JAG records for a number ofyears. As a matter offact, I think I worked with JAG records, one part ofit, until Suitland opened in the 1960s--1959?

[Assistant] No. I think it was the late 60s. The Army Departmental Records Branch at the Torpedo Factory [in Alexandria, Virginia] became the World War I1 Records Division in 1958. And they moved out ofthe Torpedo Factory in, I think, 1967 or 1968.

[User] Anyway, at the same time the records at the Torpedo Factory were moved to Suitland, a lot ofrecords were moved from Archives I.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Including a lot ofJAG records.

[Assistant] Right. That was a lot later, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then, in 1975, the State Department Historical Office called me up and said, "We have no further interest in the R&A material, but the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] may have an interest.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So that summer, the CIA sent a team in to review all the documents, They did not review all the cards, that would be impossible. But they reviewed every single page ofthe documents, and held only about one percent. I know that with the one percent withheld, many times they provided us with a sanitized copy, with the names taken out ofthe first paragraph.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I also had good relations with the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation]. There were a Jot ofFBI records in the R&A. For many years, FBI would have to review these documents for a researcher. I first had contact with the FBI in the late 40s. Two agents from the FBI came to see me ahnost every day, looking for Communists- Communist Americans who had worked for the Soviets during World War II. They came in ahnost every day, so I developed a good relationship with the FBI. Anyway, at one point, the FBI reports in the R&A would have to be reviewed by the FBI. So I would gather up the notes ofthe researcher, agents would come over, and look at the docum,ents in.my office. A few days later I would get a Jetter back, signed by J. Edgar [Hoover, FBI Director] himself, saying these documents may be released.

[Assistant] Right. There are a Jot ofFBI documents in the Military Intelligence Division files, too, that we treated--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that summer, the CIA sent a team in to review all the documents, They did not review all the cards, that would be impossible. But they reviewed every single page ofthe documents, and held only about one percent. I know that with the one percent withheld, many times they provided us with a sanitized copy, with the names taken out ofthe first paragraph.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I also had good relations with the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation]. There were a Jot ofFBI records in the R&A. For many years, FBI would have to review these documents for a researcher. I first had contact with the FBI in the late 40s. Two agents from the FBI came to see me ahnost every day, looking for Communists- Communist Americans who had worked for the Soviets during World War II. They came in ahnost every day, so I developed a good relationship with the FBI. Anyway, at one point, the FBI reports in the R&A would have to be reviewed by the FBI. So I would gather up the notes ofthe researcher, agents would come over, and look at the docum,ents in.my office. A few days later I would get a Jetter back, signed by J. Edgar [Hoover, FBI Director] himself, saying these documents may be released.

[Assistant] Right. There are a Jot ofFBI documents in the Military Intelligence Division files, too, that we treated--

[User] Similar--

[Assistant] --in a similar way back in the early 70s. How did the researcher.clientele change over the years, the early years that you were at the Archives? Or did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I also had good relations with the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation]. There were a Jot ofFBI records in the R&A. For many years, FBI would have to review these documents for a researcher. I first had contact with the FBI in the late 40s. Two agents from the FBI came to see me ahnost every day, looking for Communists- Communist Americans who had worked for the Soviets during World War II. They came in ahnost every day, so I developed a good relationship with the FBI. Anyway, at one point, the FBI reports in the R&A would have to be reviewed by the FBI. So I would gather up the notes ofthe researcher, agents would come over, and look at the docum,ents in.my office. A few days later I would get a Jetter back, signed by J. Edgar [Hoover, FBI Director] himself, saying these documents may be released.

[Assistant] Right. There are a Jot ofFBI documents in the Military Intelligence Division files, too, that we treated--

[User] Similar--

[Assistant] --in a similar way back in the early 70s. How did the researcher.clientele change over the years, the early years that you were at the Archives? Or did it?

[User] --Oh, yes--

[Assistant] In terms of the kinds ofdifferent kinds ofresearchers--?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Similar--

[Assistant] --in a similar way back in the early 70s. How did the researcher.clientele change over the years, the early years that you were at the Archives? Or did it?

[User] --Oh, yes--

[Assistant] In terms of the kinds ofdifferent kinds ofresearchers--?

[User] Not only the different kinds, but also the number increased a great deal. As a matter offact, Dr. Posner warned the Archives many years ago, that we should plan ahead. That you are going to have far more people than you expect, and you are going to need far more space than you now have. But much ofthat advice fell on deaf ears. I know that for many years in Archives I, I would see students from London, Paris, Stockholm; I would never see a local school student. Never, from A.U., George Washington, Georgetown, American, never. One student explained to me once, I have forgotten the school, it wasn't a school in Washington D.C., that the professors said to avoid the National Archives, because it is far too complicated and they have far too much records for you.

[Assistant] [Laughs] He got that right, didn't he!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] --Oh, yes--

[Assistant] In terms of the kinds ofdifferent kinds ofresearchers--?

[User] Not only the different kinds, but also the number increased a great deal. As a matter offact, Dr. Posner warned the Archives many years ago, that we should plan ahead. That you are going to have far more people than you expect, and you are going to need far more space than you now have. But much ofthat advice fell on deaf ears. I know that for many years in Archives I, I would see students from London, Paris, Stockholm; I would never see a local school student. Never, from A.U., George Washington, Georgetown, American, never. One student explained to me once, I have forgotten the school, it wasn't a school in Washington D.C., that the professors said to avoid the National Archives, because it is far too complicated and they have far too much records for you.

[Assistant] [Laughs] He got that right, didn't he!

[User] --Even from as far away as Madison! Of course, in recent years, I see a lot of local students; it's far different from how it was downtown in the early days.

[Assistant] What about the kinds ofresearchers? I mean, in the early days did you deal; today we seem to deal with not exactly genealogists, but people that are interested in family members who were in the military, or family members who served in the OSS, or situations like that, to a far greater degree, it seems to me, than when I even started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] --Even from as far away as Madison! Of course, in recent years, I see a lot of local students; it's far different from how it was downtown in the early days.

[Assistant] What about the kinds ofresearchers? I mean, in the early days did you deal; today we seem to deal with not exactly genealogists, but people that are interested in family members who were in the military, or family members who served in the OSS, or situations like that, to a far greater degree, it seems to me, than when I even started.

[User] Oh, yes, that's true, that's correct. However, even in the early days I saw a lot oflawyers. Mainly in the early 40s.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Oh, yeah. One reason for that was that during the war itself, the War Production Board did a lot ofthings that industry did not like, For example, the Board closed all gold mines in this country, and after the war the gold mine operators brought a lawsuit against the government. Some days I would have lawyers from both sides in my office looking at documents. In addition to the gold mines, patent cases involving automobile tires, or something like that. We had a wide variety ofresearchers in the 1940s.

[Assistant] What were some ofthe challenges that you faced early in your career? Things that your education or experience didn't necessarily prepare you for, in terms of dealing with records, or dealing with researchers, or even dealing with supervisors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, that's true, that's correct. However, even in the early days I saw a lot oflawyers. Mainly in the early 40s.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Oh, yeah. One reason for that was that during the war itself, the War Production Board did a lot ofthings that industry did not like, For example, the Board closed all gold mines in this country, and after the war the gold mine operators brought a lawsuit against the government. Some days I would have lawyers from both sides in my office looking at documents. In addition to the gold mines, patent cases involving automobile tires, or something like that. We had a wide variety ofresearchers in the 1940s.

[Assistant] What were some ofthe challenges that you faced early in your career? Things that your education or experience didn't necessarily prepare you for, in terms of dealing with records, or dealing with researchers, or even dealing with supervisors?

[User] I cannot think ofanything, I mean, I have always been a sort oflaid-back guy. I like working under pressure, I don't worry about a thing. Some ofthe assignments I did not care for. I did try Projects once. To me, it was a lonely job, so I tried to avoid Projects. As a matter offact, one supervisor said to nie once, many, many years ago, "Taylor, the problem with you, is you want to do what you want to do." I plead guilty.

[Assistant] [Laughs] Well, I think sometimes it's management's responsibility to match the job to the personality and talents ofthe individual, and I think clearly in your case, it's been a good match for your long career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the war started in 1950, right? It started pretty soon.

[Assistant]
That's interesting. We'll take a time-out. OK. [End Tape 1, Side 2] [Start Tape 2, Side 1]

Are we back on? Why don't we talk a little bit about the relationship between the National Archives and other Federal agencies and how it's changed over the years, but also how you have developed relationships with different people in other agencies and how that's affected your work at the Archives over the years. I think in particular, a lot ofyour close contacts with people in agencies such as the Central Intelligence Agency.

[User] Are we on?

[Assistant] We're on.

[User] Even before CIA, as I mentioned a bit earlier, I had close contacts with State Department, with FBI, and one agency I did not mention; it was a agency that came on the scene a bit later, NSRB: the National Security Resources Board. It was another civilian agency, established in 1947, and in about 1953 its name had changed. It eventually evolved into what we know today as FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency]. But I worked very closely in the 1950s and early 60s with NSRB: the National Security Resources Board. They had responsibility for allocation ofraw materials during the Korean War, labor, that sort ofthing. Plus, they were also responsible for civil defense. I really did enjoy working with the records, with a guy down the hall, in the civilian agencies. But they were with the Military Branch for many years. Also I worked very closely with the staffmembers there. As a matter offact, they had an office near the White House, and I visited them very often, and they would come to visit me at Archives. They developed their own indexes and their own filing schemes, as many agencies do, and it was such a variety of records and such a wide range ofsubjects, that it was a nice change from military records, per se, or even intelligence records.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about some ofyour dealings with the Central Intelligence Agency, particularly as it relates to access and reference issues on OSS records.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Iris Chang, a Chinese-American writer, is another one I worked with very closely. Three books, she did, before she committed suicide. A lot ofBritish writers, I forget. I spent a lot oftime over the years with a French writer, a French journalist, named Calvi, who did a book published in France, The OSS in France.

[Assistant] When you are helping a researcher, what do you see as your role, in terms ofproviding advice and assistance to a researcher; particularly the kind ofpeople you have just described, the more senior kinds of authors and researchers?

[User] For either one, either a student from Georgetown, or a student from Oxford, or a famous writer who has published a half-a-dozen books, I usually tell these people in the beginning, "The more I know about your project, the better I can heip you." Many, many researchers, not the sort ofpeople you're talking about now, but for many researchers who come here, it's like pulling teeth to find out exactly what are they looking for. They are sometimes reluctant to reveal everything, or think that two or three lines are all we need, but I often tell-researchers that the more we know about your project, the better we can provide assistance.

[Assistant] That's good advice. Describe how you feel about the records that you've worked with over the years. I mean, in terms ofwhat you get out ofworking in the records and what you think the value of archival records, particularly the archival records that you have worked in over your career, are for the American public and the researcher public, which, partic;ularly out here, at College Park, goes well beyond the Americ~n public?

[User] Some days and some weeks I see far more foreign researchers than I do Americans. But, will you rephrase that question?

[Assistant] [Laughs] Do you think this is a congressional hearing or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For either one, either a student from Georgetown, or a student from Oxford, or a famous writer who has published a half-a-dozen books, I usually tell these people in the beginning, "The more I know about your project, the better I can heip you." Many, many researchers, not the sort ofpeople you're talking about now, but for many researchers who come here, it's like pulling teeth to find out exactly what are they looking for. They are sometimes reluctant to reveal everything, or think that two or three lines are all we need, but I often tell-researchers that the more we know about your project, the better we can provide assistance.

[Assistant] That's good advice. Describe how you feel about the records that you've worked with over the years. I mean, in terms ofwhat you get out ofworking in the records and what you think the value of archival records, particularly the archival records that you have worked in over your career, are for the American public and the researcher public, which, partic;ularly out here, at College Park, goes well beyond the Americ~n public?

[User] Some days and some weeks I see far more foreign researchers than I do Americans. But, will you rephrase that question?

[Assistant] [Laughs] Do you think this is a congressional hearing or something?

[User] No, no--

[Assistant] How do you feel about the records that you work in? I have heard you talk about this before, about the sort ofjoy you get out ofworking with the records personally, and I would like to hear a little bit about that, but also about the wider importance ofthese records in terms ofthe information that they contain and what this means for researchers and for an informed public.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some days and some weeks I see far more foreign researchers than I do Americans. But, will you rephrase that question?

[Assistant] [Laughs] Do you think this is a congressional hearing or something?

[User] No, no--

[Assistant] How do you feel about the records that you work in? I have heard you talk about this before, about the sort ofjoy you get out ofworking with the records personally, and I would like to hear a little bit about that, but also about the wider importance ofthese records in terms ofthe information that they contain and what this means for researchers and for an informed public.

[User] Almost every collection I have worked with--almost every collection--! consider to be important. Because the records contain so much information, that--and I have a very good memory, which helps in this business, by the way--but I consider almost everything I have worked with, every collection here, unique.

[Assistant] Does this go back to the point you made earlier, about one ofyour supervisors saying that you only work in the stuff that you want to work in, so that you pick the important series?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no--

[Assistant] How do you feel about the records that you work in? I have heard you talk about this before, about the sort ofjoy you get out ofworking with the records personally, and I would like to hear a little bit about that, but also about the wider importance ofthese records in terms ofthe information that they contain and what this means for researchers and for an informed public.

[User] Almost every collection I have worked with--almost every collection--! consider to be important. Because the records contain so much information, that--and I have a very good memory, which helps in this business, by the way--but I consider almost everything I have worked with, every collection here, unique.

[Assistant] Does this go back to the point you made earlier, about one ofyour supervisors saying that you only work in the stuff that you want to work in, so that you pick the important series?

[User] No, he was talking about the various-

[Assistant] That was a joke, John--