[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember anything like that. No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It was all paper, you know, in those days, '72, it was all paper, paperwork. So '71, '72.

[Assistant] Did you express a preference for any particular country?

[User] No, I said anything. And in fact, I was kind of scheduled to go to Uganda, and that was the year that, uh, you know, there were, there was a lot of problems there. And somehow that, that particular, um, you know, group just didn't go or something. And then they said Malaysia. I said, oh, sure, whatever. You know. So that's why I ended up in Malaysia.

[Assistant] So you were accepted into the Peace Corps. And, uh, when did your training start?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was all paper, you know, in those days, '72, it was all paper, paperwork. So '71, '72.

[Assistant] Did you express a preference for any particular country?

[User] No, I said anything. And in fact, I was kind of scheduled to go to Uganda, and that was the year that, uh, you know, there were, there was a lot of problems there. And somehow that, that particular, um, you know, group just didn't go or something. And then they said Malaysia. I said, oh, sure, whatever. You know. So that's why I ended up in Malaysia.

[Assistant] So you were accepted into the Peace Corps. And, uh, when did your training start?

[User]
Yeah, September '73. We went right to, in fact. Well, we went to, it was, um, the staging was in San Jose, California, and we were there for about a few days, three or 4 or 5 days. And then on the trip over, um, they were talking to the people on the plane and they said to me, do you want to go on a side group or something? And I said, yeah. And they said Sabah. I said, where's that? So I said, okay, I'll do it. And so they took 14 of us to Sabah, which at those in those days was kind of a sensitive area. It kind of still is. Um, the, uh, Indonesia and Malaysia have a border on Kalimantan and Borneo, and they had, really had been kind of a war in that area. Not, not exactly where I was, but, uh, Sarawak, which is south.

And so, um, it was very sensitive for Peace Corps volunteers to be in that, that area. So they wanted to make sure they had, you know, I don't know, I was a little bit more mature or something that, that they picked up, you know, the 14 of us to go to Sabah that year.

[Assistant] So in your staging, did you have a few vaccinations or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember anything like that. I just remember talking to the psychologist that I would, I was, you know, my mother was very upset. My dad was so upset. And, you know, my dad said certain things. And, um, you know, to me about don't go and, and so I was kind of crying and in San Jose and the psychologist talked to me and it was real good. And, you know, then I, you know, I got on the plane and went. But the punch line to that story is when I got home, my sisters told me that my dad spent the whole two years bragging all over town that his daughter was in Asia so. So it shows you, you know.

[Assistant] But their initial reaction was less than positive?

[User] Yeah, they didn't want me to go. No. Uh uh. Bloom where you are planted, that was the card my mother sent me.

[Assistant] The, uh. So you did your training in country?

[User] Yeah, it was interesting because, like I said, there were 14 of us, and it was supposedly, I don't know if it's true, but this is '73, which is very high inflationary times. And we were on an island, which makes it even worse, right? And so the 14 of us went, you know, to be trained and they had to buy everything for us, like bikes and, and every, you know, literally everything. And supposedly, again, it was supposed to be one of the most expensive trainings per volunteer. But I don't know if that's true. But we were in a, um, we were way out in the country. It was beautiful. Uh, but it was a kind of a compound. Um, and it was for the blind people or orang buta. And so they, you know, they kind of laughed at the white people, you know, the Americans, the white, the white people were the blind people. So that was kind of, you know, the joke at the time. So.

[Assistant] Were was your group the first one in the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was interesting because, like I said, there were 14 of us, and it was supposedly, I don't know if it's true, but this is '73, which is very high inflationary times. And we were on an island, which makes it even worse, right? And so the 14 of us went, you know, to be trained and they had to buy everything for us, like bikes and, and every, you know, literally everything. And supposedly, again, it was supposed to be one of the most expensive trainings per volunteer. But I don't know if that's true. But we were in a, um, we were way out in the country. It was beautiful. Uh, but it was a kind of a compound. Um, and it was for the blind people or orang buta. And so they, you know, they kind of laughed at the white people, you know, the Americans, the white, the white people were the blind people. So that was kind of, you know, the joke at the time. So.

[Assistant] Were was your group the first one in the country?

[User] No, there had been volunteers in Sabah, but they were long gone. This was like kind of a reentry group.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And in fact, one of our volunteers, um, well, it was kind of a, kind of what happened was the trainers kind of encouraged us to, you know, talk to the government officials. And this one young lady got real friendly with the governor's daughter. And so she was always going there and staying there. And they, you know, got real friendly. And at some point I don't know what happened, but she was expelled from the country. And I think it was because of her friendship with the governor's daughter. So it was kind of, kind of a weird situation. But nobody else ever had any problems like that at all.

[Assistant] And, uh, in comparing yourself to the others in the training group, what were they like compared to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there had been volunteers in Sabah, but they were long gone. This was like kind of a reentry group.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And in fact, one of our volunteers, um, well, it was kind of a, kind of what happened was the trainers kind of encouraged us to, you know, talk to the government officials. And this one young lady got real friendly with the governor's daughter. And so she was always going there and staying there. And they, you know, got real friendly. And at some point I don't know what happened, but she was expelled from the country. And I think it was because of her friendship with the governor's daughter. So it was kind of, kind of a weird situation. But nobody else ever had any problems like that at all.

[Assistant] And, uh, in comparing yourself to the others in the training group, what were they like compared to you?

[User] Yeah, I was a little bit older. I was a couple years older than most of them. Uh, but we were all science or math majors. So, uh, and then a few of us got, I got sent to an English language, English speaking school. So I taught science, and I taught biology and physics in English, and many of them got sent to Malay speaking schools. And they really learned the language, you know, of course, when they had to do it every day. So I was kind of spoiled.

[Assistant] The, uh, and about how many were in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in fact, one of our volunteers, um, well, it was kind of a, kind of what happened was the trainers kind of encouraged us to, you know, talk to the government officials. And this one young lady got real friendly with the governor's daughter. And so she was always going there and staying there. And they, you know, got real friendly. And at some point I don't know what happened, but she was expelled from the country. And I think it was because of her friendship with the governor's daughter. So it was kind of, kind of a weird situation. But nobody else ever had any problems like that at all.

[Assistant] And, uh, in comparing yourself to the others in the training group, what were they like compared to you?

[User] Yeah, I was a little bit older. I was a couple years older than most of them. Uh, but we were all science or math majors. So, uh, and then a few of us got, I got sent to an English language, English speaking school. So I taught science, and I taught biology and physics in English, and many of them got sent to Malay speaking schools. And they really learned the language, you know, of course, when they had to do it every day. So I was kind of spoiled.

[Assistant] The, uh, and about how many were in the group?

[User] We had 14.

[Assistant]
Okay.

And what was the mix of men and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was a little bit older. I was a couple years older than most of them. Uh, but we were all science or math majors. So, uh, and then a few of us got, I got sent to an English language, English speaking school. So I taught science, and I taught biology and physics in English, and many of them got sent to Malay speaking schools. And they really learned the language, you know, of course, when they had to do it every day. So I was kind of spoiled.

[Assistant] The, uh, and about how many were in the group?

[User] We had 14.

[Assistant]
Okay.

And what was the mix of men and?

[User] Yeah, it was uh, it was four women and the rest were men. Yeah. And of the 14, um, nine of us finished two years. Seven of them went, uh, four years. And a couple of the men who married local women stayed, you know, seven, eight, nine years long altogether.

[Assistant] I see. Uh, nobody was married at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was uh, it was four women and the rest were men. Yeah. And of the 14, um, nine of us finished two years. Seven of them went, uh, four years. And a couple of the men who married local women stayed, you know, seven, eight, nine years long altogether.

[Assistant] I see. Uh, nobody was married at the time?

[User] No, no, we were all single. Right.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. No couples in that group, no.

[Assistant] Did anybody in the group, had you, have any teacher, uh, training or teaching experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, we were all single. Right.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. No couples in that group, no.

[Assistant] Did anybody in the group, had you, have any teacher, uh, training or teaching experience?

[User] I don't believe so, no. I think we were all math science majors and, you know, and that. And I'm not, I can't. Well, yeah, actually, um, you know, it's kind of the same format for universities now, um. If you're an education major, that's your major. And then you take science courses. Whereas if you're a science major, you don't take any education courses, you just take science, right? So that's, that was the model for all of us.

[Assistant] The, uh, what kind of facility was it where you were trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. No couples in that group, no.

[Assistant] Did anybody in the group, had you, have any teacher, uh, training or teaching experience?

[User] I don't believe so, no. I think we were all math science majors and, you know, and that. And I'm not, I can't. Well, yeah, actually, um, you know, it's kind of the same format for universities now, um. If you're an education major, that's your major. And then you take science courses. Whereas if you're a science major, you don't take any education courses, you just take science, right? So that's, that was the model for all of us.

[Assistant] The, uh, what kind of facility was it where you were trained?

[User] Where we trained? Well, like I said, it was this kind of compound way out in the country and, um, uh, you know, uh, with, uh, squat toilets and no running water in the, in the houses. Nice little houses. And, um, we had, uh, some people that brought in food for us, so it was kind of primitive. We were a little bit far out from the town, so we had to have the bikes to get into the little town.

[Assistant] I see. And what was the little name of the little town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't believe so, no. I think we were all math science majors and, you know, and that. And I'm not, I can't. Well, yeah, actually, um, you know, it's kind of the same format for universities now, um. If you're an education major, that's your major. And then you take science courses. Whereas if you're a science major, you don't take any education courses, you just take science, right? So that's, that was the model for all of us.

[Assistant] The, uh, what kind of facility was it where you were trained?

[User] Where we trained? Well, like I said, it was this kind of compound way out in the country and, um, uh, you know, uh, with, uh, squat toilets and no running water in the, in the houses. Nice little houses. And, um, we had, uh, some people that brought in food for us, so it was kind of primitive. We were a little bit far out from the town, so we had to have the bikes to get into the little town.

[Assistant] I see. And what was the little name of the little town?

[User] Oh, Tuaran. Tuaran in Sabah.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was running the training program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where we trained? Well, like I said, it was this kind of compound way out in the country and, um, uh, you know, uh, with, uh, squat toilets and no running water in the, in the houses. Nice little houses. And, um, we had, uh, some people that brought in food for us, so it was kind of primitive. We were a little bit far out from the town, so we had to have the bikes to get into the little town.

[Assistant] I see. And what was the little name of the little town?

[User] Oh, Tuaran. Tuaran in Sabah.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was running the training program?

[User] It was staff. And then of course, there were local staff. One of those people was on the Facebook page now, which is kind of amazing to me because, you know, in those days when we left, I mean, we left, right? It was, you know, there was hardly any way to get in touch with people except by, by mail. But now, you know, I see their pictures and it's kind of fun.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um. Your schedule in training, how did that work out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Tuaran. Tuaran in Sabah.

[Assistant] Okay. And who was running the training program?

[User] It was staff. And then of course, there were local staff. One of those people was on the Facebook page now, which is kind of amazing to me because, you know, in those days when we left, I mean, we left, right? It was, you know, there was hardly any way to get in touch with people except by, by mail. But now, you know, I see their pictures and it's kind of fun.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um. Your schedule in training, how did that work out?

[User]
Yeah, it was good. We had a, you know, the language and we had teacher training, kind of a, you know, rudimentary, you know, how to make a lesson plan and, and a little bit about, you know, the system in Malaysia is based on the, the English system, right? So I taught form four, form five, which is roughly 10th and 11th grades. Except that sometimes the students have to go for bridge class for a couple of years, which is language. So after, say, sixth grade, they might have a couple extra years in there to try to shift over from Chinese to English or Malay to English or whatever. Um, so anyway, um, that was our training, it was a mixture.

And we had of course, we had a homestay, I had a wonderful homestay. Um, and the people were really, they were very nice to me. They were always, they, every couple of months, as you know, through the two, through the years I was there. Every few months they would come and take me to something or a party or take me to their house. So that was very nice.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So you're, you really didn't have to have any language training or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah, we had Bahasa. Yeah, I had language. Yeah, yeah. But when I taught in the English speaking school, I didn't really practice it as much. Um, and then, but, but then it's funny, you know, Malaysia's, you know, they had so, so many. I mean, they had the advantage of having really high level of English. But yet my school a few years after that turned into a Malay language school. So somehow, you know, they have this, you know, kind of flip flopping where they, you know, you know, they have the English, but then they say, well, we want Bahasa, we want Malay language. And so it's kind of, um, you know, they kind of gave away that advantage because then, you know, now, I mean, anybody that speaks English, right, in the, you know, the high tech world is, it's a very big advantage. So anyway.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What was, uh, the method of teaching language, conversation?

[User] Yeah. No, it was the, uh. Yeah, it was the repair repeat, the basic Peace Corps. Um, there's probably a term for that, but, yeah, we would sit in a circle and repeat, repeat, repeat. So that was really good. I really learned it very well.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you do any student teaching?

[User] Yep, yep. We had a week at a school. Yes.

[Assistant] And did you feel confident going into your assignment that you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. No, it was the, uh. Yeah, it was the repair repeat, the basic Peace Corps. Um, there's probably a term for that, but, yeah, we would sit in a circle and repeat, repeat, repeat. So that was really good. I really learned it very well.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you do any student teaching?

[User] Yep, yep. We had a week at a school. Yes.

[Assistant] And did you feel confident going into your assignment that you were?

[User]
Yeah, I did, yeah, I liked it. Um, my school was kind of the, kind of the odd school out for some reason. Um, there were kind of quotes the better schools in that area. And my school was, um, when, when I first got there, we were sharing with another school, which was kind of the, you know, the upper, you know, the more, more advanced school. And they had, they had the facility in the morning and we had it from 1:00 to 6:00. And 1:00 to 6:00 in Malaysia is like killer, right? You know, the heat is just unbelievable. And then about six months into it, the new school was ready and it was brand new. It was beautiful. And it was built with funds from the World Bank. See, Malaysia in those days was developing. And so they were, you know, using this World Bank funds to, to expand their, their school system.

So the school is still there. They had a compound for the teachers, that's gone. There's like a ten story building in that spot right now. So it's kind of kind of, you know, weird to think about it, that my little house is gone. It was brand, everything, like I said, was brand new in those days. New equipment, all new wonderful science equipment, unbelievable science equipment. Much of which, you know, we didn't even, we couldn't even use. But it was all there.

[Assistant] Did anybody from Peace Corps Washington show up during your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know, I don't remember anybody. Um, I mean, we had the, the local, um, you know, our, our director. I'm not even sure the country director ever came. I don't believe so. I think one of the, we had, like, a state director or something, that was there for a while. And then he left, and then I don't think there was anybody in my state that was Peace Corps. I think it was, uh, Kuching in Sarawak, the next state, had, had an office. We never had a Peace Corps office where I was.

[Assistant] Where was your, uh, assigned school in relation to the training site?

[User] Oh, Kota Kinabalu was, is the capital, and Tuaran was, say, 25 miles north of Kota Kinabalu. And so the other volunteers were scattered all over the state.

[Assistant] So did you, did they ask if you were interested in a particular area or you just take whatever?

[User] Yeah. It was just. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, you know, when they asked me to go to this, you know, side group and I said yes. And so we were in Kuala Lumpur for a day or two, and then we just went, then we flew over to, um, to Borneo, to Sabah.

[Assistant] And you said you, you spoke with a psychologist in California before you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Kota Kinabalu was, is the capital, and Tuaran was, say, 25 miles north of Kota Kinabalu. And so the other volunteers were scattered all over the state.

[Assistant] So did you, did they ask if you were interested in a particular area or you just take whatever?

[User] Yeah. It was just. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, you know, when they asked me to go to this, you know, side group and I said yes. And so we were in Kuala Lumpur for a day or two, and then we just went, then we flew over to, um, to Borneo, to Sabah.

[Assistant] And you said you, you spoke with a psychologist in California before you left?

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Was there any psychological component to the training in country or no?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was just. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, you know, when they asked me to go to this, you know, side group and I said yes. And so we were in Kuala Lumpur for a day or two, and then we just went, then we flew over to, um, to Borneo, to Sabah.

[Assistant] And you said you, you spoke with a psychologist in California before you left?

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Was there any psychological component to the training in country or no?

[User] I don't remember anything like that. No, no.

[Assistant] Um, was everybody that came over, did they all successfully complete the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Was there any psychological component to the training in country or no?

[User] I don't remember anything like that. No, no.

[Assistant] Um, was everybody that came over, did they all successfully complete the training?

[User] Well, like I said, the one young lady that was expelled. And one guy wanted to go to Nepal, he was determined to go and, um, you know, he, he got, he got himself transferred. He finished up successfully in Nepal. And one guy was kind of let go and one other guy something. He just, he never finished. So most, like I said, most of us, that was, that was. Nine of us finished out of the original 14.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Finish the training or finished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember anything like that. No, no.

[Assistant] Um, was everybody that came over, did they all successfully complete the training?

[User] Well, like I said, the one young lady that was expelled. And one guy wanted to go to Nepal, he was determined to go and, um, you know, he, he got, he got himself transferred. He finished up successfully in Nepal. And one guy was kind of let go and one other guy something. He just, he never finished. So most, like I said, most of us, that was, that was. Nine of us finished out of the original 14.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Finish the training or finished?

[User] No, finished the two years. Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, the two years. Right. Okay. Did you have any contact with home during the training period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just letters, just, you know, airmail.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That's it. Yeah. That's all.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And did you become friends with any of the folks in your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's it. Yeah. That's all.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And did you become friends with any of the folks in your training group?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're on the Facebook page. Yeah, but now they're all scattered around the country. We, we got together a couple of years ago, so.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And how long did the training last until?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And did you become friends with any of the folks in your training group?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're on the Facebook page. Yeah, but now they're all scattered around the country. We, we got together a couple of years ago, so.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And how long did the training last until?

[User] The three months. Regular, right, three months.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did, at the end of it, did you have a swearing in ceremony or did everybody just say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The three months. Regular, right, three months.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did, at the end of it, did you have a swearing in ceremony or did everybody just say?

[User] Oh gee I can't remember that at all. Sorry. No.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] But you know, you were saying about our contact. When my grandmother died, you know, they don't send you home for grandmothers, right? And so they came to tell me and, um, so I had to call home. So in 27 months, I tell my, I tell my students this at Wesleyan, where I teach, that I called home one time in 27 months. And in those days, what you had to do was, well, there was a phone at the school, but I, you know, I didn't know how to use it. So one of the other teachers said, you can use my phone. So I went to her house and I had to make an appointment. You had to make an appointment with the overseas operator. And so I made the appointment and the appointment's for the next day from noon to five. And so I went back to her house the next day and waited, you know, and the operator calls you to make that connection because it all had to be, you know, literally plugged in, you know, everybody had to, to make the connection. And I must have paid her for it. And I can't remember how I paid for it. But that was one call I made in 27 months when I called home.

[Assistant] Um. So the flight was from where in California to where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kuala Lumpur, yeah. I'm sorry, I don't remember that. I remember waking up in the, you know, in the middle of the night, of course, jet lag and the smells and the people and, and it was this kind of old fashioned hotel. I do remember that the, the old, the old style hotel where they had us. And I, you know, I was groggy and my roommate and we were kind of groggy and we woke up in the middle of the night and kind of looked around, and I think we went outside and walked around a little bit. But, you know, that was our first impression was, you know, jet lag.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So you were able to get by pretty much just using English.

[User] Yeah. All Malaysia is very. And it's like I said, especially in those days because it was a colony up till '63. It was a British colony. And um, so there was, you know, you know, most people spoke English. Yeah. In the bazaar, you could get, you know, you could, you could use your Malay, but you really didn't need it that much. And like I said, my school was all English speaking school, English speaking, you know, teachers. The instruction was all in English.

[Assistant] And at your school, you were the only volunteer there?

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a Canadian, a CUSO, Canadian University Services Overseas. And, you know, she, she had just departed. I, when I went there for the visit, um, you know, I stayed with her and then she was done. She was kind of a funny, funny lady, but, um, then she went to Indonesia and she was determined that she was going to start a preschool or something there. And of course, that didn't work out for her, so I don't know what she did after that.

[Assistant] And while you were at your school, um, you had. Yeah, they had a telephone in case of an emergency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, like I said, I had a brand new house. It was beautiful. It was a nice little, you know, no air conditioning. It had, you know, water and, you know, sewer, of course, but, um, you know, screened in bedrooms and, um, you know, kitchen. And it was a kind of nice little wooden house, up on stilts, of course, you know, um, to keep, you know, animals and bugs away. And so we, you know, I had. It was a three bedroom house, and they put two other teachers in with me and the Peace Corps, of course, paid for that. So those, those two ladies were happy because they didn't pay, you know, the year they lived with me. So that was kind of nice. And it was, like I said, it was a little compound, ten houses built purpose for, for teachers at that school.

[Assistant] Um, were the, were your roommates, um, nationals of the country?

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they were Sabahans. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was, it was division three government housing, right? There was one division one house, which was very nice and. Oh, no, I had division two house that was kind of in the middle. Then division three was like a little bit less, less nice, you know. So they had it all, all worked out for government housing.

[Assistant] But did it have electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they were Sabahans. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was, it was division three government housing, right? There was one division one house, which was very nice and. Oh, no, I had division two house that was kind of in the middle. Then division three was like a little bit less, less nice, you know. So they had it all, all worked out for government housing.

[Assistant] But did it have electricity?

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was it furnished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was, it was division three government housing, right? There was one division one house, which was very nice and. Oh, no, I had division two house that was kind of in the middle. Then division three was like a little bit less, less nice, you know. So they had it all, all worked out for government housing.

[Assistant] But did it have electricity?

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was it furnished?

[User] Yep. Yep.

[Assistant] So. So would you say it was, uh, pretty comfortable accommodation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was it furnished?

[User] Yep. Yep.

[Assistant] So. So would you say it was, uh, pretty comfortable accommodation?

[User] Oh, it was very nice. Yeah. Yeah. But like I said, there's no air conditioning and those. I think now there's malls and everything in that, in that city. It's like amazing. But that's what I said when, uh, when Joanne and I would go to this, it was istimewa, uh, restaurant, and that was air conditioned. That was like the one hour a week that that we would sit in the air conditioning. Um, but you get used to it in Malaysia, you know, it's very hot during the day, but it cools off at night. So it's not like, like North Carolina. You cannot sleep in here in North Carolina at night with, you know, without air. But over there, I mean, the evenings were 70. There was a couple of nights I might have put a sweater on because it got so cool. And of course, in the tropics, the, you know, the sun. What's the, you know, I guess, Kipling. The sun crashes down. I forget the direct quote. But there's hardly any dusk and hardly any dawn, you know? So it's like really dark, you know, and gets cooled off really fast at night. So it was very comfortable.

[Assistant] Did you do all your shopping and cooking and cleaning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't, no, I didn't really have to. I did it at some points, but there was no, no rule about homework or tests or anything. No. I think I did, I can't remember exactly, but I must have done some kind of quizzes. Um, but there was no rules or anything. There was no, you know, minimum. Just get them ready for this Cambridge exam.

[Assistant] So that was everybody's objective to try to?

[User] For the O-levels. Yeah, yeah. And then, then, then if they got to form six then they would take A-levels, which is advanced. And that was, that was really university level work.

[Assistant] What was the school calendar like?

[User] It was very nice. We started in January and it was three semesters. Three, uh, three sessions, I guess. Um, and in between would be a two week break, which is really nice. And we were done in November, say? Mid November. And that was the end of the school year, was November. So that worked out great.

[Assistant] The school year was more like a calendar year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the O-levels. Yeah, yeah. And then, then, then if they got to form six then they would take A-levels, which is advanced. And that was, that was really university level work.

[Assistant] What was the school calendar like?

[User] It was very nice. We started in January and it was three semesters. Three, uh, three sessions, I guess. Um, and in between would be a two week break, which is really nice. And we were done in November, say? Mid November. And that was the end of the school year, was November. So that worked out great.

[Assistant] The school year was more like a calendar year.

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Instead of overlapping like we do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very nice. We started in January and it was three semesters. Three, uh, three sessions, I guess. Um, and in between would be a two week break, which is really nice. And we were done in November, say? Mid November. And that was the end of the school year, was November. So that worked out great.

[Assistant] The school year was more like a calendar year.

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Instead of overlapping like we do.

[User] Yeah. And then we had these two week breaks that we traveled. I went to Indonesia, I went to Thailand, I went to Singapore.

[Assistant] Well, that was good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Instead of overlapping like we do.

[User] Yeah. And then we had these two week breaks that we traveled. I went to Indonesia, I went to Thailand, I went to Singapore.

[Assistant] Well, that was good.

[User] Yeah, that was a great part. Yeah. And all around, all around Sabah too. There was, you know, we made trips around, around the state as well.

[Assistant] And you didn't handle any discipline?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then we had these two week breaks that we traveled. I went to Indonesia, I went to Thailand, I went to Singapore.

[Assistant] Well, that was good.

[User] Yeah, that was a great part. Yeah. And all around, all around Sabah too. There was, you know, we made trips around, around the state as well.

[Assistant] And you didn't handle any discipline?

[User] No. No, teachers didn't do anything like that. Nope. Never. I never had any. I had problems with one boy. One time he was kind of mouthing off to me and the and the other, the Chinese lady said, oh, he's, you know, he's different, he's from the north, and his family. What, the north of China, you know? And his, his, probably, his, you know, it was like a hundred years ago that, you know, his family emigrated. Uh, but she was still kind of saying it's kind of like, you know, Italians talk about Sicilians or something. It was very weird. Uh, but, but again, you know, I didn't have any, you know, it was no big deal. I mean, he was just mouthing off to me, and somehow it just went away. So.

[Assistant] So, uh, once you got to the school and started teaching, were you fairly comfortable right away, or did it take a while to get comfortable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, that was just, that was it. Yeah. Then everybody went home. And like I said, this was kind of the, you know, like I said, the poorer school, you know, poorer school, uh, in those days so that, you know, just kind of the extra school that, you know, that they didn't really, you know, spend a lot of time on, except that we had this beautiful new building that was very nice.

[Assistant] Did you feel like you got to know the students?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. Um, they were, they were, you know, high school kids, right? And like I said, there weren't that many. I mean, I didn't have that many in my classes because, you know, so many of them had, you know, failed the, the exam that, that year. It was kind of a scandal, really, not a scandal, but, you know, sad in a way, you know, that they had lost so many kids.

[Assistant] So you had one group of kids for a year?

[User] Right, form four and then. Yeah. And then I followed them.

[Assistant] They'd take the exam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. Um, they were, they were, you know, high school kids, right? And like I said, there weren't that many. I mean, I didn't have that many in my classes because, you know, so many of them had, you know, failed the, the exam that, that year. It was kind of a scandal, really, not a scandal, but, you know, sad in a way, you know, that they had lost so many kids.

[Assistant] So you had one group of kids for a year?

[User] Right, form four and then. Yeah. And then I followed them.

[Assistant] They'd take the exam.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, form four and then. Yeah. And then I followed them.

[Assistant] They'd take the exam.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the second year?

[User] No, I was with the form. Well, I taught four, I taught all the science, I taught all the biology for form four and form five. But my homeroom was, was four, and then I followed them to five. And then, then I was done, right? That was my second year, and that was all. So that when they finished my, when, when my homeroom finished, then I was done.

[Assistant] Did you become friendly with any of the host country nationals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the second year?

[User] No, I was with the form. Well, I taught four, I taught all the science, I taught all the biology for form four and form five. But my homeroom was, was four, and then I followed them to five. And then, then I was done, right? That was my second year, and that was all. So that when they finished my, when, when my homeroom finished, then I was done.

[Assistant] Did you become friendly with any of the host country nationals?

[User] Yeah. Dory. Dory was my, was what? Lived with me. Yeah. Uh, Dory was kind of interesting. She had also this O-level exam. She didn't do very well. Dory was really smart. Dory could speak, like, six languages. She could converse, you know, and she could read a couple of languages. But, I mean, like I said, that O-level exam was really hard. And so she said, you know, she wanted to live with me so that she could, she wanted to kind of get away from the family because of course, when she was home, she had to do, you know, work, you know, basically taking care of the little kids and everything. So she lived with me, and the idea was she was going to study and take the exams again. And she did, but she never passed. But now she's got, her husband recently died and, um, she had four, four kids. So she went after, you know, she grew up.

[Assistant] Was how was your income, uh, lifestyle compared to your counterparts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not on, no, not for, but like I said, that one young lady that was, uh, was involved with, um, you know, her friend that was the governor's daughter, you know, she was asked to leave. So. And I think it was because of, you know, being friendly with the wrong political, political, you know. And it was kind of, you know, not, I mean, what did she ever, I mean, she couldn't possibly have done anything, right? But and she was devastated. She cried and cried. She came to my house. And you know, what could I do? You know, they, they asked her to leave and she didn't have a work permit. She had to go. So.

[Assistant] In terms of your health, you said you enjoyed the food.

[User] Mm hmm. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm going back in, um, in May, May and June, for a week. So I'm going to Sabah in 2017.

[Assistant] No. No sickness or medical treatment or anything?

[User] No, I was never, no, I was fine. I had a, um, a impacted wisdom tooth so I had to have that done there. Boy, that was, you know. Wisdom teeth are no fun at all. So I had had one of those done while I was in Malaysia.

[Assistant] So that, that was your worst health challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm going back in, um, in May, May and June, for a week. So I'm going to Sabah in 2017.

[Assistant] No. No sickness or medical treatment or anything?

[User] No, I was never, no, I was fine. I had a, um, a impacted wisdom tooth so I had to have that done there. Boy, that was, you know. Wisdom teeth are no fun at all. So I had had one of those done while I was in Malaysia.

[Assistant] So that, that was your worst health challenge?

[User] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Assistant] So did you feel isolated at all or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was never, no, I was fine. I had a, um, a impacted wisdom tooth so I had to have that done there. Boy, that was, you know. Wisdom teeth are no fun at all. So I had had one of those done while I was in Malaysia.

[Assistant] So that, that was your worst health challenge?

[User] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Assistant] So did you feel isolated at all or?

[User] No, I was in Kota Kinabalu, so I was, it's a city. I took tai chi. I would go on a bus every day. It was three days a week and that was really good. It was all in Chinese. And then, um, you know, so there was one guy who would try to, there was a lot of people who didn't understand, you know, because it was all like philosophical, you know, so this one guy would try to kind of translate for, for the most of us who didn't understand. So he would, you know, talk about the, you know, what chi? And, you know, and so it was, it was the old school. I mean, you would stand there and do one pose for like 20 minutes, you know, and go through all the, all the steps. So I took that for about nine months. That was very nice.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um, but um, anything in the culture that, uh, you reacted to that you thought was strange or unusual or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. What went, well, local travel, you know, get a taxi, busses around the town. And of course, we were on an island. And that was a problem because we had to, you know, you had to fly. You know, people would fly to Hong Kong for, for a couple of days. There was direct flights, you know, so people would do that, you know, on, some of the teachers would go just for breaks. Or there was direct flight, I think, to, uh, Bangkok, if I'm not mistaken. But, um, you know, in those years, by the way, we got, uh, boat people from, from Indonesia, you know, the war was just winding down, uh, from, uh, yeah. I'm sorry, from, uh, uh, from, um, you know what I mean? Vietnam. Sorry.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, so from Vietnam, we had boat people escaping the war. And when I went to Thailand, it was all military. It was, you know, it was really a shock because I'd been in Malaysia for such a, you know, for so, for how many times. And over there, I mean, you could use American money. There were like bowling alleys. I was like, what is? You know, it was like, it was kind of a culture shock when I went to Thailand because it was so Americanized in those days. Compared to Malaysia anyway.

[Assistant] So was there a noticeable difference between your first and second year on your?

[User] Not, not really. No. Except, you know, like I said, I had to, you know, teach, teach a lot of variety because like I said, the one teacher had left and left us with two science teachers instead of the three we should have had.

[Assistant] Um, the, uh. Did you have any special goals that you wanted to accomplish before you wrapped up your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I liked it. I was, I, you know, it would have been easier to stay for a third year. That would have been the easy thing to do. But I just, you know, felt like I had to come home, so. And like I said, so many of them did stay because, you know, it was so nice to be there. And four, four of the guys married local ladies. So that's, you know, they, they get, you know, of course they go back every, at least every year, maybe sometimes more. Uh, so that's very nice for them. But the problem is now I want to go back, but there's nobody there. So I'm going to have to go back by myself because. Um, like, for instance, the one guy is going, but he goes for a wedding in July and I just can't go in July, right? So it's kind of interesting that they have such close, close contact with it.

[Assistant] Did you think about staying on for an additional?

[User] Oh yeah, but that's how I said it would have been easier, but I can't. I thought it was time to come home, so, um, I don't know.

[Assistant] What plans did you have for yourself on returning to the U.S.?

[User] Not really anything. I just, you know, it's kind of, kind of up in the air for a while. I worked as a recruiter for a year. That was fun. And then I went to grad school. So then I got my MBA when I got back. And in those days, you know, it was so cheap to go to grad school. It was nice, you know? So, you know, I had, I had, I had my readjustment allowance. And so that helped get me through the year of grad school.

[Assistant] When you returned to the U.S. was, did you go straight back or did you take any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, but that's how I said it would have been easier, but I can't. I thought it was time to come home, so, um, I don't know.

[Assistant] What plans did you have for yourself on returning to the U.S.?

[User] Not really anything. I just, you know, it's kind of, kind of up in the air for a while. I worked as a recruiter for a year. That was fun. And then I went to grad school. So then I got my MBA when I got back. And in those days, you know, it was so cheap to go to grad school. It was nice, you know? So, you know, I had, I had, I had my readjustment allowance. And so that helped get me through the year of grad school.

[Assistant] When you returned to the U.S. was, did you go straight back or did you take any?

[User] Yeah, I went to, yeah I did, I went to Hong Kong and I went to Taiwan. And I was, you know, like I said, National Palace Museum. I remember that was wonderful in Taiwan. And Japan. And it was so cold in Japan. It was, it was, it was November, right? And into December. And I was freezing and it was so expensive. So I spent, that was my trip home. And like I said, that would have been easier to stay because I would have had more, more trips then, right? You know, going back and then the break, break trips and everything. So.

[Assistant] What, uh, how did you feel about being back in the U.S. after being away for a couple of years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I went to, yeah I did, I went to Hong Kong and I went to Taiwan. And I was, you know, like I said, National Palace Museum. I remember that was wonderful in Taiwan. And Japan. And it was so cold in Japan. It was, it was, it was November, right? And into December. And I was freezing and it was so expensive. So I spent, that was my trip home. And like I said, that would have been easier to stay because I would have had more, more trips then, right? You know, going back and then the break, break trips and everything. So.

[Assistant] What, uh, how did you feel about being back in the U.S. after being away for a couple of years?

[User] It was fun. Um, we went to, um. My mother and I went to Ponderosa, uh, shortly after I got back, and it just kind of made, I'm sorry, it made me sick because the people were eating these big steaks, and, you know, in Malaysia, in those, we didn't eat that much meat. You know, if you had meat, it was like little bits in a, in a stir fry or something. And so it was kind of like, oh, how could they eat all that? I was, I was, I was probably a little bit anemic too, you know, because, you know, I'd been traveling and, you know, and um, and living in a, in a tropical climate, you know, you kind of adjust to that. So. But that was, that was. I remember looking at those people eating and I couldn't eat that.

[Assistant] The, uh, you mentioned before that, uh, Vietnam was, was going on.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] What was the what was the feeling of the Malaysian people about, uh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we, it was in Georgia. Yeah. And they, we had one, um, in, in, um, not Michigan. I think it was Wisconsin like in the '80s. So really early on we had one and, and I think I missed one when my kids were little. And I know I missed at least one. Um.

[Assistant] Well, how do you think your Peace Corps service impacted your work and your thinking once you returned?

[User]
Oh, you know, it was, it was worth, I mean, I'd. I've often, you know, I teach at Wesleyan, North Carolina Wesleyan College, and I've, you know, tried to, you know, every once in a while, a student will say kind of they're interested. And I kind of try to talk it up. I've never had a student that actually went. I had two that applied. I was kind of like disappointing that, that I've never been able to, you know, to have an actual student who actually did it. So. But I really would recommend it.

And now, of course, it's a completely different, you know, they're not so isolated. They have internet and so on. And people could travel like, like I said, in those days, I mean, I don't. None of, none of our volunteers had anybody come to visit them. So the whole time. So it just, just was so impossible in those days to get there. Now it's, I'm going to, I'm flying to Beijing and then I have a, um, it's a study tour, and then it ends in Shanghai, and there's a direct flight from Shanghai to Kota Kinabalu. So it's an overnight flight. So and in those days, China was completely closed, right? So I mean, people didn't go to China. So this is kind of new.

[Assistant] And you have, are active in the local returned Peace Corps volunteers group?

[User] Yeah. North Carolina Peace Corps Association, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh, you know, it was, it was worth, I mean, I'd. I've often, you know, I teach at Wesleyan, North Carolina Wesleyan College, and I've, you know, tried to, you know, every once in a while, a student will say kind of they're interested. And I kind of try to talk it up. I've never had a student that actually went. I had two that applied. I was kind of like disappointing that, that I've never been able to, you know, to have an actual student who actually did it. So. But I really would recommend it.

And now, of course, it's a completely different, you know, they're not so isolated. They have internet and so on. And people could travel like, like I said, in those days, I mean, I don't. None of, none of our volunteers had anybody come to visit them. So the whole time. So it just, just was so impossible in those days to get there. Now it's, I'm going to, I'm flying to Beijing and then I have a, um, it's a study tour, and then it ends in Shanghai, and there's a direct flight from Shanghai to Kota Kinabalu. So it's an overnight flight. So and in those days, China was completely closed, right? So I mean, people didn't go to China. So this is kind of new.

[Assistant] And you have, are active in the local returned Peace Corps volunteers group?

[User] Yeah. North Carolina Peace Corps Association, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing that?

[User] Oh, gosh. It's like more than, like five, eight years. Something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] I assume you enjoy it or you wouldn't, you wouldn't stick with it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. North Carolina Peace Corps Association, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing that?

[User] Oh, gosh. It's like more than, like five, eight years. Something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] I assume you enjoy it or you wouldn't, you wouldn't stick with it.

[User] It's interesting. Yeah. It's great. Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else about your Peace Corps experience you'd like to mention or, um, share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh. It's like more than, like five, eight years. Something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] I assume you enjoy it or you wouldn't, you wouldn't stick with it.

[User] It's interesting. Yeah. It's great. Yeah.

[Assistant] Anything else about your Peace Corps experience you'd like to mention or, um, share?

[User] Well, Malaysia, you know, again, in those days, it was a developing country. Now it's, you know, pretty much. It hasn't been a Peace Corps country for a long time because it's developed. So. But, you know, these kids that get to go to China. I thought about it when I retire, but I just couldn't, I don't know, teaching English. I don't know if I could do it, you know. But anyway, so, you know, now it seems like something that you could do as a, you know, as an older adult to get to get that experience again. So.

[Assistant] Well, very good. Thank you very much for sharing your experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So they transferred me to a residencia hotel near the office and it turned out I had measles, which I had never had. And so I sort of recovered. But then we were all moving in country. Well, my parents were in Miami. They had bought a boat and they were traveling around the Caribbean. And so I said, well, can I spend some time there before I go down? So I did. I spent a few days sort of recovering there and then went down, so I arrived a little late. But so my parents were kind of used to.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So what else happened in training? You talked about living with families and just having to find a place? Yeah, but what was your formal, I guess what did you do? And let me back up. What did you do in the Peace Corps and how was the training for that? What was your job in the Peace Corps?

[User] OK. The Peace Corps training that we did in Puerto Rico was just language training, and we had that all day long. Now, interestingly, we were the first group of women to be going to Ecuador. There were seven of us. We called ourselves the Magnificent Seven. And we, you know, we didn't have any training there. We were trained when we went to Ecuador to work with a Caritas program doing nutrition education. And the only nutritionist in the country who had been sent by AID, I think, to Chile to study nutrition. Or she'd studied nutrition in Chile and then AID sent her for more advanced degrees. Was the only nutritionist in the country, and she trained us. She worked for Caritas, and she was quite a bundle of energy and very frustrated with Caritas. But they trained, you know, she gave us basic training on basic nutrition and growth monitoring and things that are now pretty standard. But that was.

[Assistant] So the training. That's very different than our training. So your training was all language before you came in country and then the specifics. And was your whole group nutrition?

[User] Just the women.

[Assistant] Just the women. What did the men do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK. The Peace Corps training that we did in Puerto Rico was just language training, and we had that all day long. Now, interestingly, we were the first group of women to be going to Ecuador. There were seven of us. We called ourselves the Magnificent Seven. And we, you know, we didn't have any training there. We were trained when we went to Ecuador to work with a Caritas program doing nutrition education. And the only nutritionist in the country who had been sent by AID, I think, to Chile to study nutrition. Or she'd studied nutrition in Chile and then AID sent her for more advanced degrees. Was the only nutritionist in the country, and she trained us. She worked for Caritas, and she was quite a bundle of energy and very frustrated with Caritas. But they trained, you know, she gave us basic training on basic nutrition and growth monitoring and things that are now pretty standard. But that was.

[Assistant] So the training. That's very different than our training. So your training was all language before you came in country and then the specifics. And was your whole group nutrition?

[User] Just the women.

[Assistant] Just the women. What did the men do?

[User] They went off to their sites, and I don't know how much training they got. You know, a lot of them.

[Assistant] What was their job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just the women.

[Assistant] Just the women. What did the men do?

[User] They went off to their sites, and I don't know how much training they got. You know, a lot of them.

[Assistant] What was their job?

[User] There were different jobs. Some were doing agricultural development, some were doing construction, and some were doing what they call community development, which is pretty popular. And then, you know, some worked in small business development, tourism and things like that. And some, what this one friend that I can tell you about up here in Rockville, he was a media person and stayed in the Peace Corps office doing a lot of media stuff.

[Assistant] Totally different things. And then where did you do your nutrition counseling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They went off to their sites, and I don't know how much training they got. You know, a lot of them.

[Assistant] What was their job?

[User] There were different jobs. Some were doing agricultural development, some were doing construction, and some were doing what they call community development, which is pretty popular. And then, you know, some worked in small business development, tourism and things like that. And some, what this one friend that I can tell you about up here in Rockville, he was a media person and stayed in the Peace Corps office doing a lot of media stuff.

[Assistant] Totally different things. And then where did you do your nutrition counseling?

[User] That was in Quito.

[Assistant] So you were stationed in Quito?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were different jobs. Some were doing agricultural development, some were doing construction, and some were doing what they call community development, which is pretty popular. And then, you know, some worked in small business development, tourism and things like that. And some, what this one friend that I can tell you about up here in Rockville, he was a media person and stayed in the Peace Corps office doing a lot of media stuff.

[Assistant] Totally different things. And then where did you do your nutrition counseling?

[User] That was in Quito.

[Assistant] So you were stationed in Quito?

[User] No, I wasn't. The work itself was in Riobamba. We decided when we were in country where we were going to go. And I went to Riobamba, which was. R-I-O-B-A-M-B-A. It's a provincial capital in the mountains about four hours from Quito then, now it's probably a lot less because the place has developed a lot, but it was four hours by bus. And it was in the mountains, beautiful area and town. And the thing that interested me and I think a lot of other volunteers was it was one of the areas. This was a time when the theology of liberation was a big deal in South America, and the bishop in Riobamba was known to be a big progressive theology of liberation bishop. And he actually had sort of a training center there. And a lot of priests and nuns from different areas would come there to study with him, and he was also very active. They were going, the country was going through a lot of agrarian reform at the time. So it was an area where a lot of battles were going on with, especially where we were the blue bloods and then the campesinos were kind of at odds in terms of getting the land distributed because the law had been passed.

[Assistant] Was there a formal process for doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For what they needed, yeah, the basic. I think where I wasn't real prepared was how to organize the communities and how to set things up in the communities. And that was what I was counting on Caritas to help with. That kind of fell apart. But anyway.

[Assistant] And then this other volunteer group, that was another formal group? I forgot, you mentioned the name. That after he left, you joined another volunteer group.

[User] No, it was another. It was just a loose knit group of volunteers who worked in community development, you know, with different communities. There were a couple of communities that volunteers had been going to for a long time. And then around them where others and so they went out all the time and worked with the communities, helping them get bridges built or community structures that are just helping the community. A big problem was, for example, they had a cooperative and they would alternate which family or man in the family would manage the cooperative for a month or something. And the problem was that they weren't real good at math, so they'd mess up the money and then everybody'd get real mad. So the volunteers, we, you know, we kind of helped with that and various things and just trying to get them more organized.

[Assistant] So do you think you had an impact?

[User] Yeah, I think there was. But I think also the country developed as years went on. I mean, I went back.

[Assistant] Because of or regardless of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think there was. But I think also the country developed as years went on. I mean, I went back.

[Assistant] Because of or regardless of?

[User] I think it helped. I mean, I always think it helps with the ideas. And, you know, you can probably point to people who had an impact, you know, because they did things in the community and the community woke up and then they pressured the local government for more. And those kinds of things happened. Um, but I think it also helped that the country itself was developing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
So I think it was both. I just, I remember going back. When was it? I think late '80s. I remember going back for a visit, and I was so struck by the changes. The communities were still out there, but they now had water and they had electricity and the kids were all getting educated. I mean, they were still in these little communities and their chozas and things like that, but the kids probably were not going to stay and they were going to the city afterwards. But yeah, they. There's one volunteer in our group who was always very close to them, and he teaches now at the University of Utah. But he goes down every summer just about and stays in touch with the families and will often send money and stuff.

Because this one family that we worked really closely with, Elena, she, her husband, who was the community leader for a long time. It's so funny. He was real short and she was really tall, and it turned out she had been the product of a rape between her mother and the hacienda owner, and she looked just like the hacienda owner. She was tall and blond and light skinned and so forth and he was so proud of her because of her bloodline. And it was just so funny, you know, for us to think about that and she was quite.

[Assistant] And she was blond, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, no. When we were there, you know, you'd walk in for a ways and it was a scattered rural community basically. There was like a little place where they would meet. But yeah, they, um, it was rural and there was no water. There was no electricity and it was an evangelical community. These both were. And there was another one in Colta Lake, another area where we worked in other areas. And so there were a lot of them were evangelical. And the difference there was, the volunteers used to say. The difference with the evangelicals is the Catholic community still drank, and the evangelicals came in and convinced them not to drink and not to smoke and to save their money and so forth. And so the Protestant ethic had taken root a little bit more with these communities, and they were a little bit more open to change. And their houses, they would copy the missionaries and so their houses would have, they'd have these little mud houses and then they'd have tin roofs. But that they liked.

But it was, you know, I think they made a lot of progress, although we worked in another area too. I think those were Catholic communities up in San Juan, another area going up there and um. Yeah, and people were pretty responsible, you know.

[Assistant] Well, before we, I'd love to pursue the Catholic Protestant part, but just talk about the kind of house you lived in. How did you get water and how did you?

[User] OK, I lived in the city.

[Assistant] Did you have a lantern to read by night or how did?

[User] I lived in the city, so we did have electricity and water.

[Assistant] What city did you live in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived in the city, so we did have electricity and water.

[Assistant] What city did you live in?

[User] Riobamba.

[Assistant] Oh, Riobamba.

[User] Yeah, it's Chimborazo province. But yeah, this city, and it was the provincial capital city. So I had, um, when I was first, I lived with some volunteers in a house and then I moved somewhere. I moved to some other volunteers and then I had my own house. Somebody left and I had my own house. Until I was away, I got meningitis and was shipped to the States, and while I was away, they broke in and stole a bunch of things. So then I wound up living with a Belgian woman who was working with this NGO that the church had started and we lived over by the train station in an apartment there. And I think was that the last place? There may have been one other place I lived after that, but various apartments in the town.

[Assistant] So you had electricity and water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Riobamba.

[Assistant] Oh, Riobamba.

[User] Yeah, it's Chimborazo province. But yeah, this city, and it was the provincial capital city. So I had, um, when I was first, I lived with some volunteers in a house and then I moved somewhere. I moved to some other volunteers and then I had my own house. Somebody left and I had my own house. Until I was away, I got meningitis and was shipped to the States, and while I was away, they broke in and stole a bunch of things. So then I wound up living with a Belgian woman who was working with this NGO that the church had started and we lived over by the train station in an apartment there. And I think was that the last place? There may have been one other place I lived after that, but various apartments in the town.

[Assistant] So you had electricity and water?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did the people in the towns get water? Rainwater? Or what did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's Chimborazo province. But yeah, this city, and it was the provincial capital city. So I had, um, when I was first, I lived with some volunteers in a house and then I moved somewhere. I moved to some other volunteers and then I had my own house. Somebody left and I had my own house. Until I was away, I got meningitis and was shipped to the States, and while I was away, they broke in and stole a bunch of things. So then I wound up living with a Belgian woman who was working with this NGO that the church had started and we lived over by the train station in an apartment there. And I think was that the last place? There may have been one other place I lived after that, but various apartments in the town.

[Assistant] So you had electricity and water?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did the people in the towns get water? Rainwater? Or what did?

[User] No, there was a water system they had.

[Assistant] No, no. I mean in the villages.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did the people in the towns get water? Rainwater? Or what did?

[User] No, there was a water system they had.

[Assistant] No, no. I mean in the villages.

[User] Oh, in the villages there would usually be a well or rivers. You know, there was a river near the place I was talking about, where people would go down and get water in jugs and bring it back up.

[Assistant] How did you get meningitis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there was a water system they had.

[Assistant] No, no. I mean in the villages.

[User] Oh, in the villages there would usually be a well or rivers. You know, there was a river near the place I was talking about, where people would go down and get water in jugs and bring it back up.

[Assistant] How did you get meningitis?

[User] Good question. I don't know, but I think it was. You know, it was going on for a while and we couldn't figure it out until one day I was back and I scratched. There was something on my eyebrow that had bothered me, but I kept looking and couldn't see it. And I finally dug around it and pulled out a tick. And then I got it again, this moving paralysis and everything. And then I get a terrible headache. And the next day I managed to get ahold of some neighboring volunteers who drove me to Quito and then they said, OK, we're sending you to the States. Because I'd been up there once and they'd done testing and they knew it was a viral meningitis, but thought it was OK and didn't realize it was still going on.

[Assistant] But it might have been from a tick.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, in the villages there would usually be a well or rivers. You know, there was a river near the place I was talking about, where people would go down and get water in jugs and bring it back up.

[Assistant] How did you get meningitis?

[User] Good question. I don't know, but I think it was. You know, it was going on for a while and we couldn't figure it out until one day I was back and I scratched. There was something on my eyebrow that had bothered me, but I kept looking and couldn't see it. And I finally dug around it and pulled out a tick. And then I got it again, this moving paralysis and everything. And then I get a terrible headache. And the next day I managed to get ahold of some neighboring volunteers who drove me to Quito and then they said, OK, we're sending you to the States. Because I'd been up there once and they'd done testing and they knew it was a viral meningitis, but thought it was OK and didn't realize it was still going on.

[Assistant] But it might have been from a tick.

[User] Yeah, and once I got rid of the tick, then that was it, even though I went to the States and went through a million more tests. But at that point they wanted to send me home because I was near the end of my second year. It was probably in the fall and I didn't want to go back yet. I felt like I had people in Ecuador and just didn't want to up and leave. And so the agreement was that if I extended, the director said, if I'll extend six months, maybe that would work.

[Assistant] So that's how you ended up being a trainer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good question. I don't know, but I think it was. You know, it was going on for a while and we couldn't figure it out until one day I was back and I scratched. There was something on my eyebrow that had bothered me, but I kept looking and couldn't see it. And I finally dug around it and pulled out a tick. And then I got it again, this moving paralysis and everything. And then I get a terrible headache. And the next day I managed to get ahold of some neighboring volunteers who drove me to Quito and then they said, OK, we're sending you to the States. Because I'd been up there once and they'd done testing and they knew it was a viral meningitis, but thought it was OK and didn't realize it was still going on.

[Assistant] But it might have been from a tick.

[User] Yeah, and once I got rid of the tick, then that was it, even though I went to the States and went through a million more tests. But at that point they wanted to send me home because I was near the end of my second year. It was probably in the fall and I didn't want to go back yet. I felt like I had people in Ecuador and just didn't want to up and leave. And so the agreement was that if I extended, the director said, if I'll extend six months, maybe that would work.

[Assistant] So that's how you ended up being a trainer?

[User] Well, I extended six months and then after that, this friend of mine, who was a volunteer in Loja, said she'd been talking to the director about doing training, and we decided we'd like to do it. So we, you know, we went ahead and did that after.

[Assistant] So let's go to that next. So you are both staff and volunteer. Could you reflect a little bit about the differences. Or how did being a volunteer impact on your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and once I got rid of the tick, then that was it, even though I went to the States and went through a million more tests. But at that point they wanted to send me home because I was near the end of my second year. It was probably in the fall and I didn't want to go back yet. I felt like I had people in Ecuador and just didn't want to up and leave. And so the agreement was that if I extended, the director said, if I'll extend six months, maybe that would work.

[Assistant] So that's how you ended up being a trainer?

[User] Well, I extended six months and then after that, this friend of mine, who was a volunteer in Loja, said she'd been talking to the director about doing training, and we decided we'd like to do it. So we, you know, we went ahead and did that after.

[Assistant] So let's go to that next. So you are both staff and volunteer. Could you reflect a little bit about the differences. Or how did being a volunteer impact on your training?

[User] Yeah, I think the problem was, I think we were really more like volunteers with the set. What happened was they had brought the training in country and I think, you know, and they had hired local Ecuadorian organization to do the training.

[Assistant] You mean language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I extended six months and then after that, this friend of mine, who was a volunteer in Loja, said she'd been talking to the director about doing training, and we decided we'd like to do it. So we, you know, we went ahead and did that after.

[Assistant] So let's go to that next. So you are both staff and volunteer. Could you reflect a little bit about the differences. Or how did being a volunteer impact on your training?

[User] Yeah, I think the problem was, I think we were really more like volunteers with the set. What happened was they had brought the training in country and I think, you know, and they had hired local Ecuadorian organization to do the training.

[Assistant] You mean language training?

[User] Language and culture.

[Assistant] Oh, both together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this guy was almost 80, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah. And the other ones that old as well?

[User] There were others that were retirees. Um, I would assume more in their sixties, but maybe seventies too. I don't know. I mean, in this case, I think they took him because he was a professor of some renown. And I guess the university was requesting someone with his skills, and I don't remember what they were now. But um.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of interaction between the older and the younger volunteers?

[User] There was some in training and then I think. You know, actually, I think there did become more when they got to their sites too. I just remember, I think a lot of the older ones had real difficulty with the language, especially if they'd never studied a language. Like there were a lot of Midwestern farmers that would come. And I can remember going to market and hearing somebody screaming at the ladies running the little stands there, as if yelling louder would get their message across in English.

[Assistant] You hear it all the time on the bus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were others that were retirees. Um, I would assume more in their sixties, but maybe seventies too. I don't know. I mean, in this case, I think they took him because he was a professor of some renown. And I guess the university was requesting someone with his skills, and I don't remember what they were now. But um.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of interaction between the older and the younger volunteers?

[User] There was some in training and then I think. You know, actually, I think there did become more when they got to their sites too. I just remember, I think a lot of the older ones had real difficulty with the language, especially if they'd never studied a language. Like there were a lot of Midwestern farmers that would come. And I can remember going to market and hearing somebody screaming at the ladies running the little stands there, as if yelling louder would get their message across in English.

[Assistant] You hear it all the time on the bus.

[User] Right. And you rush over to help them and figure out what they need. And I think a lot of these older volunteers did, you know, the younger ones that were in town would try that, you know, help out and the older ones were more experienced, so they would help too. And there was a woman, when I got sick, there was a woman in the Peace Corps office that kind of took me under her wing and she was. I can't remember why she was in Quito, but maybe it was her husband's job or what. But she was helping out at the office and she kind of took me under her wing when I got sick and made sure I got everything done and helped. And it's just very supportive. So I mean, it was nice to have.

[Assistant] It's nice to have that blend.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was some in training and then I think. You know, actually, I think there did become more when they got to their sites too. I just remember, I think a lot of the older ones had real difficulty with the language, especially if they'd never studied a language. Like there were a lot of Midwestern farmers that would come. And I can remember going to market and hearing somebody screaming at the ladies running the little stands there, as if yelling louder would get their message across in English.

[Assistant] You hear it all the time on the bus.

[User] Right. And you rush over to help them and figure out what they need. And I think a lot of these older volunteers did, you know, the younger ones that were in town would try that, you know, help out and the older ones were more experienced, so they would help too. And there was a woman, when I got sick, there was a woman in the Peace Corps office that kind of took me under her wing and she was. I can't remember why she was in Quito, but maybe it was her husband's job or what. But she was helping out at the office and she kind of took me under her wing when I got sick and made sure I got everything done and helped. And it's just very supportive. So I mean, it was nice to have.

[Assistant] It's nice to have that blend.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Different people bring different skills to that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And you rush over to help them and figure out what they need. And I think a lot of these older volunteers did, you know, the younger ones that were in town would try that, you know, help out and the older ones were more experienced, so they would help too. And there was a woman, when I got sick, there was a woman in the Peace Corps office that kind of took me under her wing and she was. I can't remember why she was in Quito, but maybe it was her husband's job or what. But she was helping out at the office and she kind of took me under her wing when I got sick and made sure I got everything done and helped. And it's just very supportive. So I mean, it was nice to have.

[Assistant] It's nice to have that blend.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Different people bring different skills to that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can we go back to this? You said, well, you remember this was a Catholic village as opposed to an evangelical one. How do you characterize the differences between these communities other than obviously the religion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] The volunteers, are you still friends with some volunteers?

[User] Yeah, like this Joel. Now, not all of them. I think that was one of the interesting things for me. I was thinking about that today, too, was, um, I came from a fairly upper-class suburb of Santa Barbara. And although we'd traveled and lived, you know, gone up and spent summer there. It was. The people I was used to were really different from the volunteers I met. And the original, there were a couple of volunteers that I lived with, a couple who were more, you know, from more of an urban background, but I can't remember. But the ones that really stayed and worked in the community that I've stayed in touch with came from either small towns or more rural backgrounds like in Louisiana, Colorado, some of that. And they were all, these guys were all buddies and they go off fishing on the weekends. And I had this dog that a friend had found and I adopted and she was amazing dog. But when I got sick, they took care of her. And it was awful when I went back because they'd just basically left her in the kitchen while they went off for several days. And she was like, totally shell shocked when I got her and it took her like a day to sort of come out of it. But so these guys were very different, and I was thinking Peace Corps was really good for that. Because it taught you, it introduced you to people who came from really different backgrounds.

[Assistant] In your own country.

[User] In your own country as well as the country you're in. And it gave you a whole different appreciation for people here, you know, and sort of an understanding. And I try to sort of remember that when I get into these political discussions with people, you know.

[Assistant] That you can make friends and find common ground, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, like this Joel. Now, not all of them. I think that was one of the interesting things for me. I was thinking about that today, too, was, um, I came from a fairly upper-class suburb of Santa Barbara. And although we'd traveled and lived, you know, gone up and spent summer there. It was. The people I was used to were really different from the volunteers I met. And the original, there were a couple of volunteers that I lived with, a couple who were more, you know, from more of an urban background, but I can't remember. But the ones that really stayed and worked in the community that I've stayed in touch with came from either small towns or more rural backgrounds like in Louisiana, Colorado, some of that. And they were all, these guys were all buddies and they go off fishing on the weekends. And I had this dog that a friend had found and I adopted and she was amazing dog. But when I got sick, they took care of her. And it was awful when I went back because they'd just basically left her in the kitchen while they went off for several days. And she was like, totally shell shocked when I got her and it took her like a day to sort of come out of it. But so these guys were very different, and I was thinking Peace Corps was really good for that. Because it taught you, it introduced you to people who came from really different backgrounds.

[Assistant] In your own country.

[User] In your own country as well as the country you're in. And it gave you a whole different appreciation for people here, you know, and sort of an understanding. And I try to sort of remember that when I get into these political discussions with people, you know.

[Assistant] That you can make friends and find common ground, right?

[User] Right. That there's a way to do that.

[Assistant] Not at the moment but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In your own country as well as the country you're in. And it gave you a whole different appreciation for people here, you know, and sort of an understanding. And I try to sort of remember that when I get into these political discussions with people, you know.

[Assistant] That you can make friends and find common ground, right?

[User] Right. That there's a way to do that.

[Assistant] Not at the moment but.

[User]
No, you even can I think sometimes, you know, it's just hard. I've had a lot of discussion, well, not a lot, but I still remember a discussion I had with the mother of one of my daughter's friends who'd come to pick the girl up and I just come back from Nepal working on a maternal child health project there. And the first thing the mother said to me is, are you promoting abortion? And I said, well, let me tell you something. First of all, this is government funded, so it's not permitted that you can promote abortion. But I said, secondly, abortion is not something you really promote, you know? I mean, even here in the country, nobody's telling someone they have to have one. She said, oh good, because, you know, our doctors tell you you have to have an abortion. And my doctor suggested it to me because the tests for my child came out with problems. We decided not to do that and we had the baby and the baby's fine and stuff. And I said, well, what you have to remember is what your doctor said. It's an option. It's a recommendation. It's still your choice, you know. So.

You get, I don't know, maybe you just have a. It gives you some insight into other perspectives, and I think that was a good thing for me anyway when I was in Peace Corps. You know, there were a lot of things I learned to like about people but didn't necessarily always agree with their views.

[Assistant] And that's carried over for the rest of your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. That there's a way to do that.

[Assistant] Not at the moment but.

[User]
No, you even can I think sometimes, you know, it's just hard. I've had a lot of discussion, well, not a lot, but I still remember a discussion I had with the mother of one of my daughter's friends who'd come to pick the girl up and I just come back from Nepal working on a maternal child health project there. And the first thing the mother said to me is, are you promoting abortion? And I said, well, let me tell you something. First of all, this is government funded, so it's not permitted that you can promote abortion. But I said, secondly, abortion is not something you really promote, you know? I mean, even here in the country, nobody's telling someone they have to have one. She said, oh good, because, you know, our doctors tell you you have to have an abortion. And my doctor suggested it to me because the tests for my child came out with problems. We decided not to do that and we had the baby and the baby's fine and stuff. And I said, well, what you have to remember is what your doctor said. It's an option. It's a recommendation. It's still your choice, you know. So.

You get, I don't know, maybe you just have a. It gives you some insight into other perspectives, and I think that was a good thing for me anyway when I was in Peace Corps. You know, there were a lot of things I learned to like about people but didn't necessarily always agree with their views.

[Assistant] And that's carried over for the rest of your life?

[User] Yeah, clearly. Yeah, I mean, like.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about what you have done since Peace Corps, ending up in Nepal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, clearly. Yeah, I mean, like.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about what you have done since Peace Corps, ending up in Nepal.

[User] Oh, well. But even before I got there, I was going to say. Like these volunteers, a lot of them were Baptists, and they really related to these evangelical communities and stuff. And we'd talk about it like, oh really? But you appreciated what they had to say and their insights and why they thought the communities worked because of it and things. So, you know, it was.

[Assistant] So you learned a lot about that.

[User] Yeah. And then it's, yeah, I think for me, it was really hard when I came back to the States, I didn't know what I was going to do.

[Assistant] You trained as an anthropologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, and I had sort of decided. I liked the Smithsonian when I worked there, but I looked around, I thought, do I really want to spend my life in a museum? And I was worried, you know, either. There was a lot of infighting there in the department and I thought, you know, I could wind up in either a museum or academia and there'd be all this infighting, and I probably wouldn't see that much. I really liked the idea of sort of connecting with people and being helpful and all those things. And I mean, I looked at archeologists that, like this recent find where the guy spent 20 years and finally had this big find. But you're lucky if you find a job on, you know. So as much as I think it was helpful in understanding cultures, and I really appreciate what I studied, but I was thinking I really wanted to do more something else, and I had been working in health. So public health was an area to consider, but I was trying to figure out.

And I wandered around a Peruvian friend that we'd met just before I came up. He was a journalist and we went up to the Bay Area and I was looking for a job and couldn't find anything, and he was totally lost and stuff. And so I finally came home and decided I would look for a school program because I always needed to do something, especially out in California. There aren't as many jobs. And so I went around to different, this was, by this time it was like June or July.

[Assistant] '74?

[User] Yeah. '75.

[Assistant] Oh, '75.

[User] Did I get the times wrong?

[Assistant] No, I got it wrong. Yes, you came back in '75.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In January, yes. January '94 was my first trip to Moscow.

[Assistant] What were your first impressions of being there?

[User] The Sheremetyro Airport is one of the most imposing, stifling experiences you can deal with. I mean, if the Soviet Union was trying to keep people from wanting to leave town, the airport is one way to do that. It's dark. Its features are lifeless. You're walking off a plane that you've been on for the last eleven hours or so out of New York. They amazingly have five or so planes land at one time and they dump them all into the same Customs line. So the Customs booth lines go back up the staircases.\n\n Lines in Russia don't exist. People talk about lines. They will, they'll line up. But in these kind of scenarios there's no line management. Everybody's on their own. They'll make you stand behind the line and they'll call you up. How you got to that line is truly on your own.\n\n So it was a very alive sensation about going through that process, standing in a little booth, waiting for them to hand you back your official passport, to keep moving, getting your gear and trying to shuffle through the Customs.\n\n We have some pretty good stories about going through Customs. We had a lot of short delivery schedules that we'd hand-carry gear over with us. We found some techniques on how to make sure we got through Customs without incidents, to put it mildly.

[Assistant] One of those books that might come out at another time?

[User] Well, hopefully not.

[Assistant] You were able to get in what you needed to get in to do what you needed to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had to. I had issues. My son had gotten sick. There was cholera in the water supply, or in a couple of places in the Moscow River, and I came back and my son had some ungodly intestinal illness that just wiped me out as well when I got back. But that worked out fine. Somebody else took my place.\n\n In fact, what had happened was that the lead flight director for the Shuttle flight, Bill Reeves went over. Bill was over there, he came over early because of the Spektr incident, to start coordinating back here for the MOD team for the flight director ops on STS-71. So when I had to come back, Bill picked up that lead NASA role. The team itself that was in the TSUP had it well under control, as far as scheduling and keeping up with Norm and the science activities that we had to keep up with.

[Assistant] What were you doing once you got back to work? Still doing Spektr work?

[User] Yes. In fact, I was burning up the long-distance credit card on calling Moscow. We had a local line by then, so I could call up through Marshall com. I'd be talking to them at two in the morning, doing a bottle-feeding of my youngest, or my oldest at the time. So it was interesting. I'd wake up in the middle of the night having to do that, and I'd call them up and see what's up. They'd give me some questions or need some answers and I'd follow up with them.\n\n So one of the things about the Mir Program is it was always a twenty-four-hour-a-day thing. Because they were always nine hours ahead and the shift of the crew on board the Mir always shifted based on what the operations demands were, EVAs or docking missions or launches or departures of Progress or Soyuz. So you could always call up and somebody would be around.

[Assistant] I know your pictures weren't any use to Norm, but you mentioned that you could at least provide them for Shannon's use.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did your experiences start to benefit the Mir residents on what was up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's just too many, too many good memories. My first trip to Moscow in January, that was tough. I had never done international travel before and I had gotten the flu in the middle of the trip, so I was hurting. But I hadn't gotten over it. But I knew I was having a long plane ride on the way back, and so we went down, I wanted to do one last bit of shopping before we went home that last night. So we took the Metro, me and this other guy took the Metro down to the Kremlin and walked around Red Square in the snow with the bright floodlights on in the middle of the night. Just seeing the red brick of Kremlin and the flags waving and the quiet of the snow, that was just a great moment.\n\n Just singing songs and doing the stuff in the forest. Being down at Baikonur and being involved in outfitting the module. The thrill of talking on the phone to our guys as STS-71 is launching, saying, "We're on our way." This phase of the mission is coming to an end. Those are all great moments. Sit in console and talking to Norm and getting him through that. There are just too many collections of items to say there's one in particular.

[Assistant] Is it easier to find the lowest point during the time that you were involved in it?

[User] Well, it was probably the time I had the bad dream where I had the Russian bear eating on my head that woke me up in a scream. That was probably the easiest one to recall. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Was that here?

[User] Oh, yes, I was at home. It was in the middle of the acceptance test process. We were just under significant amount of stress. We were getting attention all the way up to the administrator. It was just like I just woke up--it was a bear chomping on my head. The symbology was unmistakable. That wasn't necessarily a low point, it was just one of those things going through it.

[Assistant] Having your sleep abruptly stopped and then having a bear chomp on your head, I can see why that [memory] would last for you. That's for sure.