[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just whatever at the time, right.

[Assistant] Can you think of any particular people that you either met or worked with that really stood out in your mind?

[User] The people that are you referring to, people that I worked with or trying to help?

[Assistant] Either worked with or trying to help. Any of those.

[User] Well, looking back on experiences and people, I remember that we went through a growing season demonstration. Everything in Bolivia, or in the Cochabamba, was a union. Even the founders of the unions, for their local unions, for the farmers and for one group we were doing an experiment in wheat. We took a growing season, we planted one test plot of the native wheat they had used for years and years and years and without fertilizer. We did a test of that with fertilizer. Then we brought a new variety in from Mexico. And we did that one without fertilizer and one with fertilizer. The changing of the seed alone, the variety that was grown, almost doubled the production. After the growing season, we did our measurements and we calculated this out and explained to the group how much more wheat they could raise on that property, how much more profit they can make out of it. And the head of the local union after we finished this experiment, got up and he said, this is all well and good, he said, we thank you very kindly for showing us how we can make this money, but we just have one question. What is that? Why do we want to make more money? So that's a hard question to answer.

[Assistant] It is a hard question to answer. OK, so you talked about your work. So what did you do in your off time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the first year, this was about the time that President Kennedy was assassinated. I can remember I came in from work that day in the country because we haven't had the news out in the provinces and Mama Michelle was crying and wanted to know if we're going to have to leave and go home. We didn't know what she was talking about. And she told us that the council, to go to the council. We went down to the council and that’s when we got word that Kennedy had been shot.

[Assistant] So how did you how did that affect you as a group?

[User] As a group, I think it was a sad time for everybody, but it was one thing that the people of Bolivia. It affected them, I think as much as it affected us. They thought very highly of President Kennedy.

[Assistant] Anything else that you can remember in the first year?

[User] I’m trying to remember back to the end of the first year, that was a notable thing that happened that I remember. But by the end of the first year, I think we had settled in and were very comfortable. We had established our life, our work habits, our socialization, our friends. It was no different, I don't think, as if we'd been here in the States.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have any health problems or anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a group, I think it was a sad time for everybody, but it was one thing that the people of Bolivia. It affected them, I think as much as it affected us. They thought very highly of President Kennedy.

[Assistant] Anything else that you can remember in the first year?

[User] I’m trying to remember back to the end of the first year, that was a notable thing that happened that I remember. But by the end of the first year, I think we had settled in and were very comfortable. We had established our life, our work habits, our socialization, our friends. It was no different, I don't think, as if we'd been here in the States.

[Assistant] OK. Did you have any health problems or anything like that?

[User] Well, I am a person who likes my food very well. I had made up my mind. And I can remember, a lot of times that we were given instructions on the cleanliness of food, what to eat, what not to eat. The families of the. I can remember the first time that I went.

[Assistant] We were talking about health problems. You were talking about your eating in different places.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, I was 18 when we went in and 20 when we got out.

[Assistant] Yeah, so if you were doing it 10 years later, or even five or six years later.

[User] If I were doing it five or six years later. But like I say, sometimes you had to have that knowledge of what was going on and having lived it in order to see where the needs were and where the differences were. We tried to equate everything on our standards and on what we do, without knowing what's in the culture, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, what's needed, what's not needed. Because the things we may think are important to them aren’t important. And the things that are important to them, to us may hold little importance. And it takes time to learn how these things relate.

[Assistant] True. OK, did you when you got out of the Peace Corps, did you have any plans for the future? What did you what were you thinking you might do?

[User] At that particular point? You know, I really didn’t. When I got out of the Peace Corps, I went back and helped my dad on the farm for a while. And then I moved to Oklahoma City and worked as a traveling salesman for a while. And after that I got drafted and went through the army, served in Turkey. When I got out of the army, I ended up going to Joplin, Missouri, and went to work for a church.

[Assistant] Did you think that being in the Peace Corps helped you to be able to adapt to Turkey, a different culture and all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I feel like it did allow that. Because we did provide technical assistance wherever we could. And I think we helped them understand us a little better, because through dealing and living with the people, it was much easier to have a better understanding of how they thought, and I'm sure they had a better understanding of how we thought. That we don't always. Our goals aren't always the same. It’s like one the Bolivian boys told me before I left the country. He said there is one difference between us Latinos and you Americans. Oh, what’s that? And he said, us Latinos, we work to live. But he said, you Americans live to work. And I got to thinking about that, a little bit of truth in that statement.

[Assistant] So over the years since you got out, have you continued any involvement in Peace Corps or with Bolivia or in Peace Corps activities?

[User] Not as much as probably what I should have. But I have kept in contact with my Bolivian sister. And then all of my Peace Corps friends, we have a reunion about every two years.

[Assistant] And you have been the organizer of that, I might add, in the last few years. OK, so did being in the Peace Corps change you, your career plans or what your goals would have been or just what happened, do you think?

[User] I think the best way that I could answer that question is when I arrived back at home and I had met with one of my friends. After I've been home for a little while and we were talking and I said, you know, it's really something, everybody has changed so much since I've been gone. And she looked at me and kind of laughed and said, no Larry, it’s not us that have changed, it’s you that has changed. So I guess there must have been some good in that.

[Assistant] So what do you think was the major change that came about? I mean, you come from a small middle America town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as much as probably what I should have. But I have kept in contact with my Bolivian sister. And then all of my Peace Corps friends, we have a reunion about every two years.

[Assistant] And you have been the organizer of that, I might add, in the last few years. OK, so did being in the Peace Corps change you, your career plans or what your goals would have been or just what happened, do you think?

[User] I think the best way that I could answer that question is when I arrived back at home and I had met with one of my friends. After I've been home for a little while and we were talking and I said, you know, it's really something, everybody has changed so much since I've been gone. And she looked at me and kind of laughed and said, no Larry, it’s not us that have changed, it’s you that has changed. So I guess there must have been some good in that.

[Assistant] So what do you think was the major change that came about? I mean, you come from a small middle America town.

[User] And I think that those. My look at the world was different now. My world included the whole world, whereas a lot of the kids that stayed at home, their whole life would have been the boundaries of the community. That I think it broadened my outlook on life.

[Assistant] This is sort of related. We began to talk about this a little bit earlier, but when you came back, did you have a hard time adjusting because of those changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the best way that I could answer that question is when I arrived back at home and I had met with one of my friends. After I've been home for a little while and we were talking and I said, you know, it's really something, everybody has changed so much since I've been gone. And she looked at me and kind of laughed and said, no Larry, it’s not us that have changed, it’s you that has changed. So I guess there must have been some good in that.

[Assistant] So what do you think was the major change that came about? I mean, you come from a small middle America town.

[User] And I think that those. My look at the world was different now. My world included the whole world, whereas a lot of the kids that stayed at home, their whole life would have been the boundaries of the community. That I think it broadened my outlook on life.

[Assistant] This is sort of related. We began to talk about this a little bit earlier, but when you came back, did you have a hard time adjusting because of those changes?

[User] Well, the hard time I had was the fact that my interest and maybe the interest of my friends at that particular time had changed. Our outlook on life may have changed a little bit. There was probably a period that it may have been a little bit difficult. But for the most part, I would say that it was a more positive change, that it helped me when I got to dealing with different workplaces and different people, that you had many more people skills than what I would have otherwise had and an understanding.

[Assistant] Well. I think we're pretty much at the end. Is there anything else that we haven't mentioned that you'd like to add to this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I knew both of them quite well.\n\n Because I visited [the] El Paso [NASA base] a lot, I would talk to the guys. I got to know about 100 astronauts, maybe more, real personally [like Robert L. “Bob”] Crippen and Young. Young is one of my favorite guys. I was in his office one day at Johnson Space Center. There was this picture of the Earth. I said, “Hey, that’s a neat picture.” He said, “Yes, I took that picture on the way back from the Moon. We were 9,000 miles out.” I said, “Oh, neat.” So, without telling me, he sent me a copy of that picture with the inscription “To Al Paczynski, thanks for your efforts in helping to get this effort going.” Signed, “John Young.” He was so nice he had to send me that thing personally. Wasn’t that nice of him?

[Assistant] That was nice.

[User] He’s a tremendous guy. Lousma was a good pilot, he’s an ex-Marine. I liked him. He practiced there a lot.

[Assistant] Did you get to go out there and greet the crew as they were walking out of the Orbiter?

[User] Oh, no, that was for [VIPs]. General Nord was there, Senator Schmitt was there. I was just the center of operations, I wasn’t the leader. I give a speech once in a while.

[Assistant] Do you? About the Space Harbor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s a tremendous guy. Lousma was a good pilot, he’s an ex-Marine. I liked him. He practiced there a lot.

[Assistant] Did you get to go out there and greet the crew as they were walking out of the Orbiter?

[User] Oh, no, that was for [VIPs]. General Nord was there, Senator Schmitt was there. I was just the center of operations, I wasn’t the leader. I give a speech once in a while.

[Assistant] Do you? About the Space Harbor?

[User] About this, yes. I had to make a decision, “Do I want to get involved in this thing or not?” I said, “Carpe diem.” I did. But if I hadn’t, there would have been nothing here—you wouldn’t be here, they would have had training someplace in Arizona, maybe Williams Air Force Base [Arizona] or Davis-Monthan [Air Force Base, Arizona]. It couldn’t be used for a Shuttle landing because it would be too short. They would have had to let STS-3 sit there for a month, lakebed dry, and that would have been very costly.\n\n Colonel Paul Smathers was the guy in charge of the Air Force when I took Allen Manson over to talk about how safe is it going to be for NASA to fly in here. He’d go into great detail how they protect the airspace of the Missile Range. He said, “Once in a while we get an intrusion. We ferret them out, and we give the guy hell and fine him.” I want to mention him, that he was very instrumental.

[Assistant] Was he with the Army or with the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, that was for [VIPs]. General Nord was there, Senator Schmitt was there. I was just the center of operations, I wasn’t the leader. I give a speech once in a while.

[Assistant] Do you? About the Space Harbor?

[User] About this, yes. I had to make a decision, “Do I want to get involved in this thing or not?” I said, “Carpe diem.” I did. But if I hadn’t, there would have been nothing here—you wouldn’t be here, they would have had training someplace in Arizona, maybe Williams Air Force Base [Arizona] or Davis-Monthan [Air Force Base, Arizona]. It couldn’t be used for a Shuttle landing because it would be too short. They would have had to let STS-3 sit there for a month, lakebed dry, and that would have been very costly.\n\n Colonel Paul Smathers was the guy in charge of the Air Force when I took Allen Manson over to talk about how safe is it going to be for NASA to fly in here. He’d go into great detail how they protect the airspace of the Missile Range. He said, “Once in a while we get an intrusion. We ferret them out, and we give the guy hell and fine him.” I want to mention him, that he was very instrumental.

[Assistant] Was he with the Army or with the—

[User] Air Force, with the Air Force contingent assigned to the Missile Range. They took care of airspace management.

[Assistant] Were there ever any concerns? I know that sometimes U.S. 70 is closed because of missiles going overhead. Were there any concerns about that when you presented this idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a nice career.

[Assistant] What did you think of all of that? I mean, just starting out?

[User] Well, it was nice. You know, DC is a great place for young people. And I was still pretty young at the time, before children, so it was pretty exciting. Mary, before our marriage, had a roommate and lived out in Sterling. And I had rented a room in a house out in Sterling. After we got married, we actually moved into the District [of Columbia]. That was a time when the District was very much transitioning, and parts of the city still were very unsafe. But ours was. But we took every opportunity to go to concerts, see all the museums, you know, apple festivals, and gosh, we did a lot. We did something almost every weekend and almost every evening, and took advantage of the city; it was great. And we did a lot of the program. The National Archives, the old building downtown, used to have this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful theater. They used to show a lot of Frank Capra. The National Archives had a—part of their collection—they had gotten a—oh, shoot, I can't remember—one of the news service companies, one of the companies that own the newsreels—Ed Herlihy was the narrator. Anyway, they would play those a lot and they would do things like Frank Capra. They would show a Frank Capra film every week for the summer. So everything from his silent movies, all the way through, you know, the 40s and 50s. So we did. We kept very busy. Very, very busy. A lot of authors and book collectors and stuff like that.

[Assistant] So a big change then from Mobile, Alabama?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. A big change. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any—[CROSS-TALKING]. I'm sorry. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was nice. You know, DC is a great place for young people. And I was still pretty young at the time, before children, so it was pretty exciting. Mary, before our marriage, had a roommate and lived out in Sterling. And I had rented a room in a house out in Sterling. After we got married, we actually moved into the District [of Columbia]. That was a time when the District was very much transitioning, and parts of the city still were very unsafe. But ours was. But we took every opportunity to go to concerts, see all the museums, you know, apple festivals, and gosh, we did a lot. We did something almost every weekend and almost every evening, and took advantage of the city; it was great. And we did a lot of the program. The National Archives, the old building downtown, used to have this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful theater. They used to show a lot of Frank Capra. The National Archives had a—part of their collection—they had gotten a—oh, shoot, I can't remember—one of the news service companies, one of the companies that own the newsreels—Ed Herlihy was the narrator. Anyway, they would play those a lot and they would do things like Frank Capra. They would show a Frank Capra film every week for the summer. So everything from his silent movies, all the way through, you know, the 40s and 50s. So we did. We kept very busy. Very, very busy. A lot of authors and book collectors and stuff like that.

[Assistant] So a big change then from Mobile, Alabama?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. A big change. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any—[CROSS-TALKING]. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[User] No, you go ahead.

[Assistant] I was just going to ask if the National Archives gave you any job training for your positions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. A big change. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any—[CROSS-TALKING]. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[User] No, you go ahead.

[Assistant] I was just going to ask if the National Archives gave you any job training for your positions?

[User] So, they used to have a program. When I became an archivist, they had a program that was called CIDS: Career [thinking of acronym] Development—I can't—"C-I-D-S"—career intern—no, I don't remember. But it was a two-week course that all new archivists went through. I was in California when I joined the program. I ended up doing a paper on an obsolete electronic records system that the Bush White House had called “PROFS,” which actually became a big deal at the end of the administration because—should it be deleted or were they a record that was—anyway, neither here nor there. So give me the question again, because I've already—.

[Assistant] Sure. Any job training that—.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, I became an archivist. When I went out to Reagan, I was hired as an archivist at Reagan. So I was hired in March as a technician, as a GS-4 or -5. I can't remember. I was promoted after 90 days and then still as a technician. And then in—March, April, May, June, July, August—so I think about five months later, in August, I applied for the job, the archivist position at Reagan. And, I think, in August, I went to California, and I stayed in California for one year.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And then that would have made me a GS-7—that would have made me a GS-9, probably. And I came back to DC and went to work for Pat Borders, Nancy Smith, and John Fawcett, who was the head of the office.

[Assistant] Well, going back to the Reagan Library, what were your responsibilities there?

[User] So we were just starting up. We would go to the— what's the movie with—? Oh, shoot. The movie with Bruce Willis. Reagan's office was in the same movie that the Bruce Willis film was made, you know, where they blow up the building and all that.

[Assistant] Like a Die Hard movie?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun. It was fun. I lived in Culver—. The building was in the old—I'm not sure the building still exists—but it's typical California. It was a great California experience for me. I lived in Culver City, right across the street from what had been the MGM headquarters. It was then Lorimar and, I think, later became Sony headquarters. But we were in a building that had been A-1 Pasta Factory, and they had made pasta there. And in the same building with us was the dealership, an automotive repair shop that worked on Bentleys. And that was kind of fun. And then Tales from the Crypt was filmed above us. And one night, in 1989, at the end of the season, there was a wrap party. The production company had a wrap party, and there was a lot of ice, and they left the ice apparently on the roof, and it all leaked through the roof and into our stack area. And we were very, very lucky nothing got damaged, but we were also very, very—not very, very happy. But it was on Venice Boulevard, and we were about, I don't know, two or three miles from Venice Beach. So it's very—it was very California-ish.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And Culver City, apparently, has changed quite a bit since then. But I lived there for—I lived in a small—a woman-owned house, and she had built a mother-in-law apartment for her mother, and her mother had died. And she rented the little apartment to me.

[Assistant] Wow. Connections, right?

[User] Yeah. I was working for the Reagan Library. She was part of the local Los Angeles Democratic Party Committee. And she was always trying to save me. And I always tried to point out to her that I worked for the National Archives. This was a nonpartisan, nonpolitical job. But I don't think she ever really believed me.

[Assistant] Right. I know we get that, don't we? Yeah. Does anything really stick out in your mind from your time at the Reagan Library?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people that have had their hands on those records for 30 years, or 15 years, or 10 years, are the people that should have those records. It's not to say that the people who are getting those records aren't smart. It's just going to take them some time to figure out what's—. You know what I'm saying.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. I think they have some rationale behind it, but there's pros and cons to it, right?

[User] Yeah, and it would be fair to say that anybody in the National Archives would tell you that I have argued to keep the records, but I haven't been obstinate about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, I do understand the pros and cons, but I do think it's better they stay at the Presidential Libraries, but I do understand both sides of the coin. So no one's become an enemy of mine because they've made a decision that I don't agree with, which is something that happens too often in this country right now.

[Assistant] You're very right about that. Yes. Yeah. Well, hey, I've kept you for a full two hours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and it would be fair to say that anybody in the National Archives would tell you that I have argued to keep the records, but I haven't been obstinate about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, I do understand the pros and cons, but I do think it's better they stay at the Presidential Libraries, but I do understand both sides of the coin. So no one's become an enemy of mine because they've made a decision that I don't agree with, which is something that happens too often in this country right now.

[Assistant] You're very right about that. Yes. Yeah. Well, hey, I've kept you for a full two hours.

[User] Well, I appreciate it.

[Assistant] This has been really interesting. You have such a storied career, and you've met so many interesting people and worked at several different [Presidential] Libraries and—.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, I do understand the pros and cons, but I do think it's better they stay at the Presidential Libraries, but I do understand both sides of the coin. So no one's become an enemy of mine because they've made a decision that I don't agree with, which is something that happens too often in this country right now.

[Assistant] You're very right about that. Yes. Yeah. Well, hey, I've kept you for a full two hours.

[User] Well, I appreciate it.

[Assistant] This has been really interesting. You have such a storied career, and you've met so many interesting people and worked at several different [Presidential] Libraries and—.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. I enjoyed the career. Thirty years was time to retire. I've wanted to retire when I was still kind of enjoying the work. But, 62 1/2 was the time to retire. Um, you didn't ask me who my favorite person I ever met was.

[Assistant] And who was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I appreciate it.

[Assistant] This has been really interesting. You have such a storied career, and you've met so many interesting people and worked at several different [Presidential] Libraries and—.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. I enjoyed the career. Thirty years was time to retire. I've wanted to retire when I was still kind of enjoying the work. But, 62 1/2 was the time to retire. Um, you didn't ask me who my favorite person I ever met was.

[Assistant] And who was that?

[User] Bob Newhart.

[Assistant] Bob Newhart. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. I enjoyed the career. Thirty years was time to retire. I've wanted to retire when I was still kind of enjoying the work. But, 62 1/2 was the time to retire. Um, you didn't ask me who my favorite person I ever met was.

[Assistant] And who was that?

[User] Bob Newhart.

[Assistant] Bob Newhart. Okay.

[User] Mrs. Bush used to have a literacy fundraiser down in Houston, and she would bring the authors up. And Bob Newhart came many years ago. You just meet all kinds of people. But growing up watching The Bob Newhart Show, it was just—he was just such a nice, nice, nice guy.

[Assistant] In person, in real life, he's a nice guy. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mrs. Bush used to have a literacy fundraiser down in Houston, and she would bring the authors up. And Bob Newhart came many years ago. You just meet all kinds of people. But growing up watching The Bob Newhart Show, it was just—he was just such a nice, nice, nice guy.

[Assistant] In person, in real life, he's a nice guy. Yeah.

[User] They mostly all are.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So anyway. Yeah. Thank you. It's been a great career, and I've enjoyed every minute of it and enjoyed working with—.

[Assistant] What do you miss the most?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I still see my colleagues at work, and I still see the foundation people, and the arts council keeps me very, very busy. And I was involved in the community for 30 years, and so I have friends here. So, I thought I would be lonely and wouldn't have anything to do. But people like you give me—. So like today, I went over to the foundation this morning and worked a little bit with the staff on the project. I'm doing this interview. I'm meeting with the—we're giving another scholarship to a Bryan [Texas] kid, so I'm meeting with the mayor of Bryan at 5 o’clock, and at 7 o’clock, I’ve got a dinner at a fancy-schmancy restaurant with some people in town. So, it's a good life. It was a good time to retire.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yes. It sounds like you are super busy still.

[User] So, anyway, I've been very, very fortunate. Very, very fortunate. And I'm having a hell of a good time in retirement.

[Assistant] That is good to hear. Would you happen to have any photographs that you would want to share with us? Just one during your time in service, or it could be a picture from now or anything like that?

[User] Yeah, I have a whole, uh,—. Can I send them tomorrow?

[Assistant] Oh, yes, yes. Whenever you have time. There's no rush.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, anyway, I've been very, very fortunate. Very, very fortunate. And I'm having a hell of a good time in retirement.

[Assistant] That is good to hear. Would you happen to have any photographs that you would want to share with us? Just one during your time in service, or it could be a picture from now or anything like that?

[User] Yeah, I have a whole, uh,—. Can I send them tomorrow?

[Assistant] Oh, yes, yes. Whenever you have time. There's no rush.

[User] I have a whole carousel. The foundation did a program for my retirement. They're very nice, and they put a bunch of photos together throughout my career. So it might be more than you want, but I'll send it to you.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, that would be great. We'd appreciate it. So, yeah, just thank you so much for spending all this time with me today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I have a whole, uh,—. Can I send them tomorrow?

[Assistant] Oh, yes, yes. Whenever you have time. There's no rush.

[User] I have a whole carousel. The foundation did a program for my retirement. They're very nice, and they put a bunch of photos together throughout my career. So it might be more than you want, but I'll send it to you.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, that would be great. We'd appreciate it. So, yeah, just thank you so much for spending all this time with me today.

[User] Hopefully, I didn't bore you to death.

[Assistant] Oh, no! This is so interesting. You know, you've just done so much. It's been really, really great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have a whole carousel. The foundation did a program for my retirement. They're very nice, and they put a bunch of photos together throughout my career. So it might be more than you want, but I'll send it to you.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, that would be great. We'd appreciate it. So, yeah, just thank you so much for spending all this time with me today.

[User] Hopefully, I didn't bore you to death.

[Assistant] Oh, no! This is so interesting. You know, you've just done so much. It's been really, really great.

[User] Well, thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

[Assistant] Yeah. All right. Well, hey, I'm going to let you go. But again, thank you so much. And, you know, hopefully we'll be talking soon about the photographs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd think, though, really, in this day and age, that if it had been faked that somebody wouldn't have talked? You couldn't keep a secret in this country if you wanted to.

[Assistant] No, certainly not.

[User] I mean, maybe there's some zealots who would take something to the grave with them. There are people that are willing to die for what they believe in and will keep their mouth shut if it's a conspiracy kind of thing, but to pull off something of that magnitude, there are too many people involved to make it work. There's no way you're going to keep that secret, no way. Are you familiar with the [web]site NASA Watch?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] [Daniel S.] Goldin would have a meeting behind his doors up there, and it would be on NASA Watch before the night was over. I mean, who's leaking it? But I mean some reason, somehow, they knew what was going on, what was being said in there. It's crazy.

[Assistant] Yes, the word certainly spreads very quickly, very quickly. Part of, I guess, being in an open society. There's not much that is hidden, and certainly not anything of that magnitude could be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, maybe there's some zealots who would take something to the grave with them. There are people that are willing to die for what they believe in and will keep their mouth shut if it's a conspiracy kind of thing, but to pull off something of that magnitude, there are too many people involved to make it work. There's no way you're going to keep that secret, no way. Are you familiar with the [web]site NASA Watch?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] [Daniel S.] Goldin would have a meeting behind his doors up there, and it would be on NASA Watch before the night was over. I mean, who's leaking it? But I mean some reason, somehow, they knew what was going on, what was being said in there. It's crazy.

[Assistant] Yes, the word certainly spreads very quickly, very quickly. Part of, I guess, being in an open society. There's not much that is hidden, and certainly not anything of that magnitude could be.

[User] No, and people see things they don't understand and they try to ascribe other reasons to it.

[Assistant] Yes, without looking into the scientific facts and the flag-waving and all those things, there's very simple basic explanations.\n\n But it is interesting that you mentioned your moment of realizing all that was going on. At that point, what were your thoughts about being involved in the space program? At that point, did you realize that the later Apollo missions had been canceled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They did a great job of reconfiguring and saving the mission. Those three Skylab missions I thought went very well. I wound up, I think, getting more graveyard Capcom shifts than anybody. It was just the luck of the draw. In fact, I don't know, still maybe somebody has caught me by now, but I think I held the record for Capcom time for a long time because I did all three of the Skylabs and Apollo 16, so it was a lot of hours sitting in the mission control. A dubious record, not one I'm real proud of. But I had a lot of fun doing that. We had good teams and worked well together.

[Assistant] Did you, when you weren't working your Capcom shifts, were you working some of your other—were you starting to get into Shuttle at that point?

[User] No, because the way the Capcom things did, I forget the work schedule. It was like three, maybe it was five days. I don't know. Five on and three off, or something. Your off times varied, then you shifted schedule. You'd be like five. I forget. I think it was five, five days on the graveyard, and then you would shift and go to the next shift. So you got a planning shift and whatever they called them, and an ops shift. So you weren't always stuck on it, but you moved around from shift to shift. They gave you a few days to adjust your sleep cycle and to go back to the office and do whatever you got to do to get caught up. But really there wasn't an opportunity to do much else.

[Assistant] Certainly a challenge getting your schedule shifted around like that, getting your body adjusted, and so forth. But Skylab certainly has returned a lot of good information.

[User] Oh, it was great. We had a lot of fun doing that. It was unfortunate that it got ripped apart on ascent, but we're fortunate that we didn't lose it.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Were there any incidents or occurrences during Skylab, either from a technical standpoint or from a more humorous standpoint that stand out for you that you'd like to mention during all those shifts on duty and such?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have to learn it all over again, but they will.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully, there's enough people still around that were involved with [Skylab] that can throw out a few pieces of advice here and there, too.

[User] Oh, they are, and they have been contributing to it.

[Assistant] During Skylab, was NASA able to work with DoD at all to incorporate some of the things that had been anticipated for the MOL Program then?

[User] Not to my knowledge, I don't think that ever happened, because MOL never really flew so there wasn't a lot to pass on.

[Assistant] I know they had managed to do some DoD events for the Gemini Program, and I wasn't sure if maybe they had been able to tie in some.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was just aggravating to have to undo all that, because that locker, the stuff we had just barely fit in there, so it was a really stowage issue here. If there's one thing you learn in zero G, things are always neatly packed. They pack it in FEPC [Flight Equipment Processing Contract] and you get it up there, and once you pull it out, it doesn't always go back in, because it expands or does something in zero G and it doesn't fit very well.

[Assistant] I think I've had that problem down here trying to get something back in.

[User] Well, you pack a suitcase to go somewhere. Once you open it up, you can't get it all back in there.

[Assistant] Yes. It's amazing how that works.\n\n With the Department of Defense and NASA did have a lot of interaction on Shuttle, they had some plans early on with that, being with your background, did you have much involvement in those plans throughout the development of Shuttle and up?

[User] Not in development. I was involved on some of the classified flights to a limited extent. Those things they kept very tightly controlled, which they had to, you know. There were some things that I was doing later on after I finished flying that required my access to some of the things they were doing and some of the things that were going on. After Challenger, they quit flying military payloads.

[Assistant] Right. What was part of the motivation then, because they had originally thought of flying Shuttle flights out of Vandenberg and having—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you pack a suitcase to go somewhere. Once you open it up, you can't get it all back in there.

[Assistant] Yes. It's amazing how that works.\n\n With the Department of Defense and NASA did have a lot of interaction on Shuttle, they had some plans early on with that, being with your background, did you have much involvement in those plans throughout the development of Shuttle and up?

[User] Not in development. I was involved on some of the classified flights to a limited extent. Those things they kept very tightly controlled, which they had to, you know. There were some things that I was doing later on after I finished flying that required my access to some of the things they were doing and some of the things that were going on. After Challenger, they quit flying military payloads.

[Assistant] Right. What was part of the motivation then, because they had originally thought of flying Shuttle flights out of Vandenberg and having—

[User] In fact, the old MOL pad became the Shuttle pad. They modified that.

[Assistant] Did those needs change at some point along the way, and then after Challenger they decided to go more with focused just on the unmanned systems? Is that probably what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, I graduated from college in 1967 and had to do a 12 month internship, which I could do anywhere in the country. So I looked around different places, wanting to get out of Michigan and go to a big city. So I ended up in Washington, D.C.

[Assistant] Let's go back. What degree was it that you got?

[User] A Bachelor of Science in medical technology from Michigan State University.

[Assistant] Had you grown up in Michigan?

[User] Yeah, I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and really hadn't, had not experienced much of the country, let alone the world until I went off to college and was very intrigued by these students from all over the country and, and the world, but primarily just there were people from New York and California, Wyoming. And so anyway, I found that pretty interesting. And when I had this internship to do, I decided on Washington.

[Assistant] Let's go back to when you were in high school. Did you do any special activities, volunteer work? What did you do with your summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A Bachelor of Science in medical technology from Michigan State University.

[Assistant] Had you grown up in Michigan?

[User] Yeah, I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and really hadn't, had not experienced much of the country, let alone the world until I went off to college and was very intrigued by these students from all over the country and, and the world, but primarily just there were people from New York and California, Wyoming. And so anyway, I found that pretty interesting. And when I had this internship to do, I decided on Washington.

[Assistant] Let's go back to when you were in high school. Did you do any special activities, volunteer work? What did you do with your summers?

[User]
My summers, for the most part when I was a little younger than high school until I was about 14, I spent every summer doing classes at the local museum all day every day because my parents both worked. And that was a wonderful, wonderful thing for me and really developed my interest in science. And, um, and I think had I been of a generation or two later, I might have pursued a career in the natural sciences in some way, but didn't even think that was something a girl could do, right? And there were teachers and nurses, and I knew I didn't want to be a nurse, but I loved medicine. And so that led me to medical technology.

And in high school, in the summers, I, I, I guess I just did all those typical high school things. I think I worked a little, but it wasn't real compelling to work until I got out of high school. And then, then the first summer I went to work in a mattress factory where my mom worked and sewed mattress covers. And, uh, anyway.

[Assistant] Did you do any travel at all during?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and really hadn't, had not experienced much of the country, let alone the world until I went off to college and was very intrigued by these students from all over the country and, and the world, but primarily just there were people from New York and California, Wyoming. And so anyway, I found that pretty interesting. And when I had this internship to do, I decided on Washington.

[Assistant] Let's go back to when you were in high school. Did you do any special activities, volunteer work? What did you do with your summers?

[User]
My summers, for the most part when I was a little younger than high school until I was about 14, I spent every summer doing classes at the local museum all day every day because my parents both worked. And that was a wonderful, wonderful thing for me and really developed my interest in science. And, um, and I think had I been of a generation or two later, I might have pursued a career in the natural sciences in some way, but didn't even think that was something a girl could do, right? And there were teachers and nurses, and I knew I didn't want to be a nurse, but I loved medicine. And so that led me to medical technology.

And in high school, in the summers, I, I, I guess I just did all those typical high school things. I think I worked a little, but it wasn't real compelling to work until I got out of high school. And then, then the first summer I went to work in a mattress factory where my mom worked and sewed mattress covers. And, uh, anyway.

[Assistant] Did you do any travel at all during?

[User] No. My family, my family always camped around Michigan, but we really never. We took one trip to California, the obligatory trip to California. But no, I mean, my parents were very working class and they certainly didn't have money to travel abroad or anything like that.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
My summers, for the most part when I was a little younger than high school until I was about 14, I spent every summer doing classes at the local museum all day every day because my parents both worked. And that was a wonderful, wonderful thing for me and really developed my interest in science. And, um, and I think had I been of a generation or two later, I might have pursued a career in the natural sciences in some way, but didn't even think that was something a girl could do, right? And there were teachers and nurses, and I knew I didn't want to be a nurse, but I loved medicine. And so that led me to medical technology.

And in high school, in the summers, I, I, I guess I just did all those typical high school things. I think I worked a little, but it wasn't real compelling to work until I got out of high school. And then, then the first summer I went to work in a mattress factory where my mom worked and sewed mattress covers. And, uh, anyway.

[Assistant] Did you do any travel at all during?

[User] No. My family, my family always camped around Michigan, but we really never. We took one trip to California, the obligatory trip to California. But no, I mean, my parents were very working class and they certainly didn't have money to travel abroad or anything like that.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing?

[User] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, in summers while I worked the entire time I was in college and all through the summers to pay for it, and my parents helping with what they could. But I was typical in that I left with student loans and all of these things. But I had this internship to do. So that led me to Washington, D.C., which, well, number one, when I got to college, I was thrilled. I spent the whole time smiling. I mean, I just thought this was the most amazing new environment.

[Assistant] You were the first in the family to go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. My family, my family always camped around Michigan, but we really never. We took one trip to California, the obligatory trip to California. But no, I mean, my parents were very working class and they certainly didn't have money to travel abroad or anything like that.

[Assistant] Then when you were in college, same thing?

[User] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, in summers while I worked the entire time I was in college and all through the summers to pay for it, and my parents helping with what they could. But I was typical in that I left with student loans and all of these things. But I had this internship to do. So that led me to Washington, D.C., which, well, number one, when I got to college, I was thrilled. I spent the whole time smiling. I mean, I just thought this was the most amazing new environment.

[Assistant] You were the first in the family to go to college?

[User] Yeah, I was the first in the family to go to college. And I'm a baby. So I had these older brothers and, older brother and two sisters and who never had any interest, and they went right to work and all that. So I just thought this was the best thing since sliced bread. So when I, but when I got to D.C., it got even better because it was this world I had had absolutely no exposure to. Politics was certainly nothing that was ever discussed in my family. My father, working class Catholic Italian, had been an acquaintance of Gerald Ford in their, when they played football in the 1920s and therefore became a Ford supporter and therefore a Republican, which made everybody else in the family crazy. And so my mother would never, she just would not allow any discussion of politics in our home because it always ended up in an argument with my dad.

[Assistant] So during the early sixties, do you, do you have any recollection of John F. Kennedy or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Actually, I did. And I, you know, I can't. Well, no, not during high school. During college I did, yeah, because I graduated from high school in 1963, and I really wasn't aware of it at that time. But in college, I became aware of it and very interested. And then when I went to D.C., I was just, I mean, this was absolutely what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Were there recruiters on the college campus, do you recall?

[User] There probably were, because I know that Michigan State has provided, at that time it was the, it had the largest number of Peace Corps volunteers of any public university.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so there must have been recruiters, but I just wasn't aware of it. I was either studying or working.

[Assistant] Okay, so your head was elsewhere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I, you know, honestly, I can't say how I became aware of it. It must have been through the news and whatever. Yeah. So by the time I got to D.C. in August of '67, of course, the political scene was pretty intense with the war protests. And, and I'd never been involved in any of that. And remembering the first march on the Pentagon, being in my room. I lived in a nurse's dorm because it was all I could afford in Washington making $75 a month.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Just wanting so badly to be there and not even having a clue how to go about making connections with people and not daring to go alone.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And that sort of thing. So it was kind of this definitely significant political awakening in D.C. and I got involved in the McCarthy campaign after some time.

[Assistant] Now where was the internship?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just wanting so badly to be there and not even having a clue how to go about making connections with people and not daring to go alone.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And that sort of thing. So it was kind of this definitely significant political awakening in D.C. and I got involved in the McCarthy campaign after some time.

[Assistant] Now where was the internship?

[User] At the Washington Hospital Center in Northwest Washington.

[Assistant] And this was part of a master's program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that sort of thing. So it was kind of this definitely significant political awakening in D.C. and I got involved in the McCarthy campaign after some time.

[Assistant] Now where was the internship?

[User] At the Washington Hospital Center in Northwest Washington.

[Assistant] And this was part of a master's program?

[User] Well, it was to become a medical technologist, you had to have a degree and an internship. And many universities who had their own hospital systems combined that in the four years. But Michigan State required that you get a degree and then do your internship that fifth year. So it really didn't lead to a master's, but it led to being qualified to take the exam to.

[Assistant] Now was the exam national or by state?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was to become a medical technologist, you had to have a degree and an internship. And many universities who had their own hospital systems combined that in the four years. But Michigan State required that you get a degree and then do your internship that fifth year. So it really didn't lead to a master's, but it led to being qualified to take the exam to.

[Assistant] Now was the exam national or by state?

[User] National.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it didn't have to all be done in Michigan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] National.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it didn't have to all be done in Michigan.

[User] Right. Exactly.

[Assistant] So and it was a one year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it didn't have to all be done in Michigan.

[User] Right. Exactly.

[Assistant] So and it was a one year?

[User] One year, one full year.

[Assistant] Did you, what else did you do during the year in Washington?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Exactly.

[Assistant] So and it was a one year?

[User] One year, one full year.

[Assistant] Did you, what else did you do during the year in Washington?

[User] Oh, gosh. All kinds of things. I mean, I visited, you know, did the whole tourist thing. And actually Jim moved there after about six months and we did everything free in Washington.

[Assistant] So Jim grew up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One year, one full year.

[Assistant] Did you, what else did you do during the year in Washington?

[User] Oh, gosh. All kinds of things. I mean, I visited, you know, did the whole tourist thing. And actually Jim moved there after about six months and we did everything free in Washington.

[Assistant] So Jim grew up?

[User] In Grand Rapids.

[Assistant] And just tell me quickly who Jim is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh. All kinds of things. I mean, I visited, you know, did the whole tourist thing. And actually Jim moved there after about six months and we did everything free in Washington.

[Assistant] So Jim grew up?

[User] In Grand Rapids.

[Assistant] And just tell me quickly who Jim is.

[User] My husband.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. All right, let's go on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Grand Rapids.

[Assistant] And just tell me quickly who Jim is.

[User] My husband.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. All right, let's go on.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So he came to Washington.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So he came to Washington.

[User] So he came to D.C. and I started badgering him, well, we were engaged at this point.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so I started badgering him about Peace Corps. And he was just kind of, well, yeah, whatever you want to do. And I had really always been very intrigued by international travel and other cultures. You know, I mean, I can remember in high school going right to the National Geographic, and that was about my, you know, the extent of my exposure. But it really did turn me on to this. So anyway, he got a job. When Jim came to D.C., he got a job with EEOC, and his job was. How did this work? I can't remember how it all worked. But anyway, he ended up evaluating VISTA applications, and we had already put in our Peace Corps applications. And so then through his experience, we learned what the process was. So we kept going to Peace Corps and saying, we need a decision, you know, when are you going to tell us if we're.

[Assistant] Do you remember actually going to the Peace Corps office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So he came to D.C. and I started badgering him, well, we were engaged at this point.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so I started badgering him about Peace Corps. And he was just kind of, well, yeah, whatever you want to do. And I had really always been very intrigued by international travel and other cultures. You know, I mean, I can remember in high school going right to the National Geographic, and that was about my, you know, the extent of my exposure. But it really did turn me on to this. So anyway, he got a job. When Jim came to D.C., he got a job with EEOC, and his job was. How did this work? I can't remember how it all worked. But anyway, he ended up evaluating VISTA applications, and we had already put in our Peace Corps applications. And so then through his experience, we learned what the process was. So we kept going to Peace Corps and saying, we need a decision, you know, when are you going to tell us if we're.

[Assistant] Do you remember actually going to the Peace Corps office?

[User] Yeah, once. And Jim went several times because he worked in the area. So he kept badgering them. But you can ask him about that.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I started badgering him about Peace Corps. And he was just kind of, well, yeah, whatever you want to do. And I had really always been very intrigued by international travel and other cultures. You know, I mean, I can remember in high school going right to the National Geographic, and that was about my, you know, the extent of my exposure. But it really did turn me on to this. So anyway, he got a job. When Jim came to D.C., he got a job with EEOC, and his job was. How did this work? I can't remember how it all worked. But anyway, he ended up evaluating VISTA applications, and we had already put in our Peace Corps applications. And so then through his experience, we learned what the process was. So we kept going to Peace Corps and saying, we need a decision, you know, when are you going to tell us if we're.

[Assistant] Do you remember actually going to the Peace Corps office?

[User] Yeah, once. And Jim went several times because he worked in the area. So he kept badgering them. But you can ask him about that.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process at all?

[User] Yes, I do. And I was, well, related to our conversation earlier about writing. I was completely traumatized, traumatized by having to write a motivational statement. And I had this huge stress about it. And I think now if I were to see it, I'd probably be embarrassed. But I'm glad it's destroyed or lost or whatever. But it worked, whatever I wrote that I don't really remember. I just felt that, I know I felt I had this skill that would certainly be very useful anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] So while you were in Washington, you just sort of it, your next step you felt was going to be Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, once. And Jim went several times because he worked in the area. So he kept badgering them. But you can ask him about that.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process at all?

[User] Yes, I do. And I was, well, related to our conversation earlier about writing. I was completely traumatized, traumatized by having to write a motivational statement. And I had this huge stress about it. And I think now if I were to see it, I'd probably be embarrassed. But I'm glad it's destroyed or lost or whatever. But it worked, whatever I wrote that I don't really remember. I just felt that, I know I felt I had this skill that would certainly be very useful anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] So while you were in Washington, you just sort of it, your next step you felt was going to be Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, yeah. We were getting married in September '68 and we were, you know, at that place where, where are we going to live? What are we going to do? And I knew I could work at the hospital where I trained in D.C. and we loved D.C. So the plan was to stay there unless we got into Peace Corps. So I went home.

[Assistant] Did Jim have overseas experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do. And I was, well, related to our conversation earlier about writing. I was completely traumatized, traumatized by having to write a motivational statement. And I had this huge stress about it. And I think now if I were to see it, I'd probably be embarrassed. But I'm glad it's destroyed or lost or whatever. But it worked, whatever I wrote that I don't really remember. I just felt that, I know I felt I had this skill that would certainly be very useful anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] So while you were in Washington, you just sort of it, your next step you felt was going to be Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, yeah. We were getting married in September '68 and we were, you know, at that place where, where are we going to live? What are we going to do? And I knew I could work at the hospital where I trained in D.C. and we loved D.C. So the plan was to stay there unless we got into Peace Corps. So I went home.

[Assistant] Did Jim have overseas experience?

[User] No, no, no, no.

[Assistant] So to match up to yours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. We grew up, we went to the same high school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So anyway, I went home a month before our wedding, after graduation, and Jim stayed in D.C., and he called me a week or so later and said, well, Peace Corps says we're accepted, but they don't have a placement for us yet. Great. Okay. So then it was, well, what are we going to do? I mean, we need to get jobs or whatever. Well, anyway, about a week before he came home for our wedding, he called and said, they want to send us to Kenya. I freaked out, of course.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So emotional. Oh, sorry. Anyway. It's really stupid. So he called and said, how about going to Kenya? And I completely freaked out. He didn't know anything about it. I said, oh my God, the only thing I know about Kenya is it's really close to the Serengeti. This would be wonderful.

[Assistant] Had you applied as a married couple?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So emotional. Oh, sorry. Anyway. It's really stupid. So he called and said, how about going to Kenya? And I completely freaked out. He didn't know anything about it. I said, oh my God, the only thing I know about Kenya is it's really close to the Serengeti. This would be wonderful.

[Assistant] Had you applied as a married couple?

[User] We applied as a couple who would be married when we went in. We were engaged at the time and we didn't, weren't available until after we got married. Um. So I was really excited going on and on about how wonderful this would be. And he said, but you have to be a teacher. Which stopped me dead in my tracks, because of the two of us, Jim was what Peace Corps called a BA generalist.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] He had no applicable skill.

[Assistant] What was his degree in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that kind of took the wind out of my sails and I said, well, yeah, you know, this sounds wonderful. And it was going to start two weeks after our wedding and it all fit. And we really hadn't even requested Africa. Back then, remember, you could request three countries.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But we didn't know anything. I mean, we were very ignorant, and so. [phone rings] I can just let it go.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so we, um, we, uh, we just were thrilled. We were thrilled to be accepted and whatever so.

[Assistant] What preferences had you put down, do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we, um, we, uh, we just were thrilled. We were thrilled to be accepted and whatever so.

[Assistant] What preferences had you put down, do you remember?

[User] Yes, we put down Chile and Thailand and I can't remember the third. I mean, we were just all over the place because we really didn't. I had a friend who was Thai.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I don't know why we thought Chile would have been very interesting at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Did you have any friends who had joined the Peace Corps up to that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we put down Chile and Thailand and I can't remember the third. I mean, we were just all over the place because we really didn't. I had a friend who was Thai.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I don't know why we thought Chile would have been very interesting at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Did you have any friends who had joined the Peace Corps up to that point?

[User] No. We knew no one who had joined the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did the, how was the family dealing with your plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know why we thought Chile would have been very interesting at that time. But anyway.

[Assistant] Did you have any friends who had joined the Peace Corps up to that point?

[User] No. We knew no one who had joined the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did the, how was the family dealing with your plan?

[User] Oh, they just thought it was really kind of crazy. My parents really thought anything I did was great, but they just were kind of in shock about this. They would never have said, you know, we don't want you to do it or anything like that. But, um, but I did have an aunt who made it very clear that she thought we were wasting two years of our lives when we could be making money. So it was, um.

[Assistant] Was your father silent, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We knew no one who had joined the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] How did the, how was the family dealing with your plan?

[User] Oh, they just thought it was really kind of crazy. My parents really thought anything I did was great, but they just were kind of in shock about this. They would never have said, you know, we don't want you to do it or anything like that. But, um, but I did have an aunt who made it very clear that she thought we were wasting two years of our lives when we could be making money. So it was, um.

[Assistant] Was your father silent, I mean?

[User] Yeah, my father was almost always silent.

[Assistant] I mean, this is a Democratic thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Oh, yeah. I don't even, you know, honestly, I don't even know that, that he connected it to politics or to Democrats. It was, it was not that thought out a process, I don't think. But, you know, I'm going to have to turn, go ahead and turn off a sec.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So our families, alright, our families were just kind of silent, a little bit shocked, but they knew darn well that there wasn't any point in telling either of us what to do. So they got into the spirit of it. And, and so we, we got married September 21st and we started training. We didn't know when we were going to start training, but we were camping on our honeymoon. And friends drove up to where we were camping with the packets that had come from Peace Corps with all of our travel arrangements.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were to leave in about two and a half weeks. And so we went home and tried to figure out what to pack.

[Assistant] Now where were you told to report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So our families, alright, our families were just kind of silent, a little bit shocked, but they knew darn well that there wasn't any point in telling either of us what to do. So they got into the spirit of it. And, and so we, we got married September 21st and we started training. We didn't know when we were going to start training, but we were camping on our honeymoon. And friends drove up to where we were camping with the packets that had come from Peace Corps with all of our travel arrangements.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were to leave in about two and a half weeks. And so we went home and tried to figure out what to pack.

[Assistant] Now where were you told to report?

[User] New York City.

[Assistant] And where was training going to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] New York City.

[Assistant] And where was training going to be?

[User] Training was in New York City at the Paris Hotel, well, we stayed at the Paris Hotel and then, um. And had all, if I remember, oh, training was at Columbia Teachers College.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. And that's where we had all of our, our courses and such. And then we right away went for the month long language immersion north of the city, where we were ensconced in a closed hotel with about 170 trainees and 25 East Africans as our language instructors. So it's a huge group.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hadn't heard of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was in New York City at the Paris Hotel, well, we stayed at the Paris Hotel and then, um. And had all, if I remember, oh, training was at Columbia Teachers College.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. And that's where we had all of our, our courses and such. And then we right away went for the month long language immersion north of the city, where we were ensconced in a closed hotel with about 170 trainees and 25 East Africans as our language instructors. So it's a huge group.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hadn't heard of that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Had either of you ever spent time in New York?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And that's where we had all of our, our courses and such. And then we right away went for the month long language immersion north of the city, where we were ensconced in a closed hotel with about 170 trainees and 25 East Africans as our language instructors. So it's a huge group.

[Assistant] Yeah, I hadn't heard of that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Had either of you ever spent time in New York?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it's kind of a.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Had either of you ever spent time in New York?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it's kind of a.

[User] Oh, everything was new.

[Assistant] A special honeymoon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, everything was new.

[Assistant] A special honeymoon.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the whole two years was a honeymoon really, I mean, you can't ask for anything better.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So we spent that three months there.

[Assistant] Now, when you left home, you had, you packed up. Was the expectation then that you were going to go to training and directly overseas, or that you would have a chance to come back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the whole two years was a honeymoon really, I mean, you can't ask for anything better.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So we spent that three months there.

[Assistant] Now, when you left home, you had, you packed up. Was the expectation then that you were going to go to training and directly overseas, or that you would have a chance to come back home?

[User] We did go back home because we were to leave on January 1st, and so we took a few days at Christmas time and they allowed people to go home if they wanted. And so we did. We went back to Michigan.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the training now. Okay. So you reported to New York, to the Hotel Paris on 96th Street?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So we spent that three months there.

[Assistant] Now, when you left home, you had, you packed up. Was the expectation then that you were going to go to training and directly overseas, or that you would have a chance to come back home?

[User] We did go back home because we were to leave on January 1st, and so we took a few days at Christmas time and they allowed people to go home if they wanted. And so we did. We went back to Michigan.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the training now. Okay. So you reported to New York, to the Hotel Paris on 96th Street?

[User] Yes, that's right. And West End.

[Assistant] And was it just a group for Kenya or was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did go back home because we were to leave on January 1st, and so we took a few days at Christmas time and they allowed people to go home if they wanted. And so we did. We went back to Michigan.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the training now. Okay. So you reported to New York, to the Hotel Paris on 96th Street?

[User] Yes, that's right. And West End.

[Assistant] And was it just a group for Kenya or was it?

[User] It was just a group for Kenya. It was combined secondary education and a few nurses who are going to be doing nursing education. I think there might have been maybe 20 nurses out of the group.

[Assistant] So when you first gathered, what was your impression of the others? I mean, now you're see people who were doing the same thing that you were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just a group for Kenya. It was combined secondary education and a few nurses who are going to be doing nursing education. I think there might have been maybe 20 nurses out of the group.

[Assistant] So when you first gathered, what was your impression of the others? I mean, now you're see people who were doing the same thing that you were doing.

[User] Yeah. Well, of course, everybody was nervous and excited and just watching people. One couple we became good friends with. I can remember seeing them walk in and. I think I was pretty intimidated by most of these people because I always felt like everybody had more experience and was far more together than I. But like many of us feel.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it was, it was a great group. It was the fall of 1968. And so there was always the gathering around the TV station, TV to watch the news at night and.

[Assistant] Right. Were there other, there were other married couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was, it was a great group. It was the fall of 1968. And so there was always the gathering around the TV station, TV to watch the news at night and.

[Assistant] Right. Were there other, there were other married couples?

[User] Yeah. We had a lot of married couples. Out of the 170 or so, I would say there were probably at least 30 couples.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were a lot of married couples.

[Assistant] That's a big program, 170.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, it was. And we sent 150 finally. But one of the things that happened with that group, of course, it was during the draft.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so there were, practically all of us, although Jim had a deferment because he had a pin in his leg that deferred him. And we planned to get married on September 21st. But there were, there were all these couples. [coughs] Excuse me. With September anniversaries, because they just quickly got married when they found out they could get into this Peace Corps program to keep the guy out of the draft.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] Yeah. So it was very funny. Many of us share the same anniversary.

[Assistant] You were put up at the Hotel Paris.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so there were, practically all of us, although Jim had a deferment because he had a pin in his leg that deferred him. And we planned to get married on September 21st. But there were, there were all these couples. [coughs] Excuse me. With September anniversaries, because they just quickly got married when they found out they could get into this Peace Corps program to keep the guy out of the draft.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] Yeah. So it was very funny. Many of us share the same anniversary.

[Assistant] You were put up at the Hotel Paris.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] For how long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So it was very funny. Many of us share the same anniversary.

[Assistant] You were put up at the Hotel Paris.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] For how long?

[User] Well, we were there for, I think about a few, just a few days. And then we went up to Monroe, New York, where we did this language immersion for a full month, and we were not allowed any English between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. And, um, and then after that, we could.

[Assistant] What was, how was the language training structured?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were there for, I think about a few, just a few days. And then we went up to Monroe, New York, where we did this language immersion for a full month, and we were not allowed any English between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. And, um, and then after that, we could.

[Assistant] What was, how was the language training structured?

[User] Oh, it was great. Somehow they placed us into, into classes based on our ability. So maybe the first week or few first few days we were just randomly selected. I don't remember. But then you were in a class with a similar, similar level of students and, um, and the instructor spoke Swahili the entire time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they were great. They used a lot of body language and gesturing and, and, um, it was really, for me, the first time that I had ever been successful at learning a language.

[Assistant] Had you taken language at the college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were great. They used a lot of body language and gesturing and, and, um, it was really, for me, the first time that I had ever been successful at learning a language.

[Assistant] Had you taken language at the college?

[User] I had taken one semester of Italian, and I did that because I really regretted not having learned Italian from my grandfather but we weren't allowed to do that when we were kids. It was considered not being Americans.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so that was the only language I had taken. Oh, I took Latin, of course, in high school.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was, it must, it was very intense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had taken one semester of Italian, and I did that because I really regretted not having learned Italian from my grandfather but we weren't allowed to do that when we were kids. It was considered not being Americans.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so that was the only language I had taken. Oh, I took Latin, of course, in high school.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was, it must, it was very intense.

[User] It was very intense.

[Assistant] You were in a relatively isolated location.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We could walk into town or whatever, of course, but we still all stuck together.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We were newly married, as were most of the couples. So there were all those adjustments. I can remember one morning having a huge fight with Jim because it was before, it was after 6:00 in our room, we were getting ready for the day and I said something to him in English, and he corrected me.

[Assistant] In Swahili?

[User] Yes, in Swahili. And I went nuts. But it was, that was what, it was so intense. Like for about the first two weeks, I felt like I didn't know anything. I think a lot of people felt this way. And then all of a sudden it started to fall into place and then we could communicate.

[Assistant] Was he in the class at the same level as you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were newly married, as were most of the couples. So there were all those adjustments. I can remember one morning having a huge fight with Jim because it was before, it was after 6:00 in our room, we were getting ready for the day and I said something to him in English, and he corrected me.

[Assistant] In Swahili?

[User] Yes, in Swahili. And I went nuts. But it was, that was what, it was so intense. Like for about the first two weeks, I felt like I didn't know anything. I think a lot of people felt this way. And then all of a sudden it started to fall into place and then we could communicate.

[Assistant] Was he in the class at the same level as you?

[User] Yeah, we were about, about the same level actually. So he was just being a brat.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had anyone indicated that selection depended on your ability to learn Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in Swahili. And I went nuts. But it was, that was what, it was so intense. Like for about the first two weeks, I felt like I didn't know anything. I think a lot of people felt this way. And then all of a sudden it started to fall into place and then we could communicate.

[Assistant] Was he in the class at the same level as you?

[User] Yeah, we were about, about the same level actually. So he was just being a brat.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had anyone indicated that selection depended on your ability to learn Swahili?

[User] Yeah, there was that implication. Um. I don't remember it being stated because we didn't have to work in the language.

[Assistant] Right, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were about, about the same level actually. So he was just being a brat.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had anyone indicated that selection depended on your ability to learn Swahili?

[User] Yeah, there was that implication. Um. I don't remember it being stated because we didn't have to work in the language.

[Assistant] Right, that's right.

[User] We had, you know, we were working in English and, and I just, well, I just think I know I felt like I just wanted to do everything as best I could because we really wanted to go to Kenya. And so learning Swahili was part of it. That was great.

[Assistant] And that was a four week period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was that implication. Um. I don't remember it being stated because we didn't have to work in the language.

[Assistant] Right, that's right.

[User] We had, you know, we were working in English and, and I just, well, I just think I know I felt like I just wanted to do everything as best I could because we really wanted to go to Kenya. And so learning Swahili was part of it. That was great.

[Assistant] And that was a four week period?

[User] Four weeks, yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any other training going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had, you know, we were working in English and, and I just, well, I just think I know I felt like I just wanted to do everything as best I could because we really wanted to go to Kenya. And so learning Swahili was part of it. That was great.

[Assistant] And that was a four week period?

[User] Four weeks, yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any other training going on?

[User] Yeah, there were evening sessions. There were, um, there was some cross-cultural training going on. And then there were these awful T groups that were being led by, I'm thinking back on it, probably pretty unqualified people. I mean, they may have had the credentials, but I don't know if they were playing with us, I think. And that was very emotional, very traumatic for a lot of people.

[Assistant] Were they trying to get married couples to probe whether?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Separated them.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] But what they did was put partners, like Jim was in T groups with spouses of people who were in my T group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which was kind of interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were they trying to push as to whether you both wanted to go or one? Because that was an issue at times, because one of the couple were clearly committed, but the other wasn't and that led to problems once they got overseas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But what they did was put partners, like Jim was in T groups with spouses of people who were in my T group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which was kind of interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were they trying to push as to whether you both wanted to go or one? Because that was an issue at times, because one of the couple were clearly committed, but the other wasn't and that led to problems once they got overseas.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] I don't know if they were very explicit about it or not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] I don't know if they were very explicit about it or not.

[User] They weren't at that point. Well, I don't remember it at that point. And I think perhaps they didn't address it in the T groups because most of the people were not married couples.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But when we had the meetings with the psychiatrist, again, he didn't approach anything directly. And I had never been in the presence of a psychiatrist. I mean, this was not part of my family scene, number one. Well, there were probably plenty of crazy people, but nobody could afford a psychiatrist. So, I mean, I was so intimidated by this experience.

[Assistant] It was a one-on-one interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't at that point. Well, I don't remember it at that point. And I think perhaps they didn't address it in the T groups because most of the people were not married couples.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But when we had the meetings with the psychiatrist, again, he didn't approach anything directly. And I had never been in the presence of a psychiatrist. I mean, this was not part of my family scene, number one. Well, there were probably plenty of crazy people, but nobody could afford a psychiatrist. So, I mean, I was so intimidated by this experience.

[Assistant] It was a one-on-one interview?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It wasn't the two of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And a very funny thing that Ann Albright still remembers.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We talked about my childhood, going camping, how many sisters and brothers I had, you know, just stuff that seemed like absolutely nothing to me.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it was very personable. And then when I saw the report he had written, he had written that I had, quote, an acute social awareness, unquote. And I remember cracking up, like.

[Assistant] When did you get to see the report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was very personable. And then when I saw the report he had written, he had written that I had, quote, an acute social awareness, unquote. And I remember cracking up, like.

[Assistant] When did you get to see the report?

[User] This is crazy. Before we went.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yeah, I'm not, I don't remember the exact mechanism. But yeah, we actually saw it and I remember just cracking up. It's like, oh really? He knows that from this chat that we had? Okay, well, whatever. I'm glad he came to a good conclusion.

[Assistant] What did, did you have to take psychological tests also, like the MMPI?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm not, I don't remember the exact mechanism. But yeah, we actually saw it and I remember just cracking up. It's like, oh really? He knows that from this chat that we had? Okay, well, whatever. I'm glad he came to a good conclusion.

[Assistant] What did, did you have to take psychological tests also, like the MMPI?

[User] Not that I remember. But, but the psych, one of the interesting things about couples is that the psychiatrist announced that he was going to be meeting, he wanted to have a group meeting with all of the married couples.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] We thought, oh, what's he going to talk about, birth control or what? You know, we just. What he wanted to talk about was competition between couples and how we needed to be aware of that and how that had proven to be problems with Peace Corps couples because they had to work so closely together and they could be competitive. And, and he probably addressed desire to go too at that point. But so that was kind of.

[Assistant] Was this all during that four weeks or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that I remember. But, but the psych, one of the interesting things about couples is that the psychiatrist announced that he was going to be meeting, he wanted to have a group meeting with all of the married couples.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] We thought, oh, what's he going to talk about, birth control or what? You know, we just. What he wanted to talk about was competition between couples and how we needed to be aware of that and how that had proven to be problems with Peace Corps couples because they had to work so closely together and they could be competitive. And, and he probably addressed desire to go too at that point. But so that was kind of.

[Assistant] Was this all during that four weeks or?

[User] Oh no, this was throughout the three months. This was back in the city.

[Assistant] At the end of the four weeks, were you tested on your language ability.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We thought, oh, what's he going to talk about, birth control or what? You know, we just. What he wanted to talk about was competition between couples and how we needed to be aware of that and how that had proven to be problems with Peace Corps couples because they had to work so closely together and they could be competitive. And, and he probably addressed desire to go too at that point. But so that was kind of.

[Assistant] Was this all during that four weeks or?

[User] Oh no, this was throughout the three months. This was back in the city.

[Assistant] At the end of the four weeks, were you tested on your language ability.

[User] Yeah, we were. It was a, um, a verbal test and then they ranked us according to the.

[Assistant] The Foreign Service. FS one, two, three, four.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, this was throughout the three months. This was back in the city.

[Assistant] At the end of the four weeks, were you tested on your language ability.

[User] Yeah, we were. It was a, um, a verbal test and then they ranked us according to the.

[Assistant] The Foreign Service. FS one, two, three, four.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] Was there any indication that you really should be at least two or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] Was there any indication that you really should be at least two or?

[User] Um, I remember getting a one plus and being very happy with that. So they must have, you know, maybe the cutoff was one.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, whatever it was, you know, I mean, that seems pretty paltry now but.

[Assistant] During the four weeks, had anyone dropped out of the program, that you were aware?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I remember getting a one plus and being very happy with that. So they must have, you know, maybe the cutoff was one.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, whatever it was, you know, I mean, that seems pretty paltry now but.

[Assistant] During the four weeks, had anyone dropped out of the program, that you were aware?

[User] Yeah, I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. Uh, so what happens after Monroe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, whatever it was, you know, I mean, that seems pretty paltry now but.

[Assistant] During the four weeks, had anyone dropped out of the program, that you were aware?

[User] Yeah, I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. Uh, so what happens after Monroe?

[User] Okay, so we go back to the Hotel Paris, and we continue with education classes at Columbia Teachers College. And, and then after a week or two, we were placed in the Catholic schools in New York City because of the public school strike.

[Assistant] Let's stay with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, so we go back to the Hotel Paris, and we continue with education classes at Columbia Teachers College. And, and then after a week or two, we were placed in the Catholic schools in New York City because of the public school strike.

[Assistant] Let's stay with.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] I'm sorry. We stayed at the Hotel Paris for about a week, and then we went to our home stays with families in the city.

[Assistant] Do you recall who was running the program at Teachers College or who was head of the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry. We stayed at the Hotel Paris for about a week, and then we went to our home stays with families in the city.

[Assistant] Do you recall who was running the program at Teachers College or who was head of the training?

[User] The one person I remember was a Nigerian named Kojo.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that's the only person I remember.

[Assistant] And within the, so now were the nurses were going to split off at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one person I remember was a Nigerian named Kojo.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that's the only person I remember.

[Assistant] And within the, so now were the nurses were going to split off at this point?

[User] Yeah, they must have split off and done different educational training.

[Assistant] Of the group then, I don't know, it may have been 120, 130 at that point. Were there any, any in the group who had previously taught?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's the only person I remember.

[Assistant] And within the, so now were the nurses were going to split off at this point?

[User] Yeah, they must have split off and done different educational training.

[Assistant] Of the group then, I don't know, it may have been 120, 130 at that point. Were there any, any in the group who had previously taught?

[User] Oh yeah, there were. There were a few teachers.

[Assistant] But the majority had not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, there were. There were a few teachers.

[Assistant] But the majority had not?

[User] The majority had not. The oldest person in our group was 26, and he had a, maybe it was 25 because he still needed to avoid the draft. He had a PhD in biochemistry and he had taught at the college level.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But there were some who had taught in secondary and junior high.

[Assistant] So the, the, uh, the basis of training, the assumption of training, was that you were starting from square one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The majority had not. The oldest person in our group was 26, and he had a, maybe it was 25 because he still needed to avoid the draft. He had a PhD in biochemistry and he had taught at the college level.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But there were some who had taught in secondary and junior high.

[Assistant] So the, the, uh, the basis of training, the assumption of training, was that you were starting from square one?

[User] That's right. And Kenya had required that all of the teachers have bachelor's degree, but they did not require that they'd be certified teachers.

[Assistant] Yes, that's common to the British style system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there were some who had taught in secondary and junior high.

[Assistant] So the, the, uh, the basis of training, the assumption of training, was that you were starting from square one?

[User] That's right. And Kenya had required that all of the teachers have bachelor's degree, but they did not require that they'd be certified teachers.

[Assistant] Yes, that's common to the British style system.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you did an intensive education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And Kenya had required that all of the teachers have bachelor's degree, but they did not require that they'd be certified teachers.

[Assistant] Yes, that's common to the British style system.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you did an intensive education?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] For about a week.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you did an intensive education?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] For about a week.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Were there also cultural and historical studies at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] For about a week.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Were there also cultural and historical studies at that point?

[User] Right. That went on throughout, even when we, um, even when we were staying with families, there were certain days where we had to go back to Teachers College for various sessions, cross cultural and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Do you remember doing, also doing American studies, world communism?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Were there also cultural and historical studies at that point?

[User] Right. That went on throughout, even when we, um, even when we were staying with families, there were certain days where we had to go back to Teachers College for various sessions, cross cultural and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Do you remember doing, also doing American studies, world communism?

[User] No. No, I, I think I would remember that.

[Assistant] Yeah, it may have been dropped by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. That went on throughout, even when we, um, even when we were staying with families, there were certain days where we had to go back to Teachers College for various sessions, cross cultural and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Do you remember doing, also doing American studies, world communism?

[User] No. No, I, I think I would remember that.

[Assistant] Yeah, it may have been dropped by then.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. So tell me about how the home stay went.