[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they didn't have to deal with as much as I did. You know, I began to see the real futility of war. I became an environmentalist because it's, you know, the, uh, the abusiveness to the environment of the war and the Army is terrible. And so my perspective was really one of, hey, you know, what about conservation? What about negotiation? So I seem to always have a history of being kind of outside the fence of whatever group I'm in. Growing up with the military, our roots weren't in these places. I was the outsider. And then I was the outsider in the Peace Corps because of my war and in the Army, I was the outsider because of my Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I was wondering whether people looked at you askance because.

[User] A little bit. And what I say is, is I think the Peace Corps probably influenced my thinking.

[Assistant] Oh, I was going to ask that.

[User] Very predominantly. Even in comparison to 20 years in the Army, I think the Peace Corps had a tremendous impact on how I look at things.

[Assistant] But you brought a lot to the experience and sort of Peace Corps enabled you to express things that, I mean, you had within you. Yeah, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit. And what I say is, is I think the Peace Corps probably influenced my thinking.

[Assistant] Oh, I was going to ask that.

[User] Very predominantly. Even in comparison to 20 years in the Army, I think the Peace Corps had a tremendous impact on how I look at things.

[Assistant] But you brought a lot to the experience and sort of Peace Corps enabled you to express things that, I mean, you had within you. Yeah, I mean.

[User] Another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's exactly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very predominantly. Even in comparison to 20 years in the Army, I think the Peace Corps had a tremendous impact on how I look at things.

[Assistant] But you brought a lot to the experience and sort of Peace Corps enabled you to express things that, I mean, you had within you. Yeah, I mean.

[User] Another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's exactly.

[User] It gave another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to say for posterity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's exactly.

[User] It gave another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to say for posterity?

[User] Join the Peace Corps. And war no more. This war that we're about to embark on, I think is completely avoidable. I'm absolutely. I think it's another example of misguided American intentions where we don't have to go to the war. We could, if our government would use alternative fuels, reduce consumption, be conservation minded. We wouldn't need to be in this war.

[Assistant] But now, I mean, I gather from the life you're leading now that what you did in the Peace Corps, there's lots to do here within the United States. So your involvement with Sierra Club and environmental.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It gave another perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to say for posterity?

[User] Join the Peace Corps. And war no more. This war that we're about to embark on, I think is completely avoidable. I'm absolutely. I think it's another example of misguided American intentions where we don't have to go to the war. We could, if our government would use alternative fuels, reduce consumption, be conservation minded. We wouldn't need to be in this war.

[Assistant] But now, I mean, I gather from the life you're leading now that what you did in the Peace Corps, there's lots to do here within the United States. So your involvement with Sierra Club and environmental.

[User] Yeah, it's all related.

[Assistant] It's all of a piece, yeah. Great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite a bit, yes.

[Assistant] So where did you go to a high school?

[User] You know, my parents made a conscious decision, although we did travel when we were very young in our elementary school era. But my mother really wanted us to be stable in our schooling in high school and middle school. So we stayed in Washington state. So my father was based at Fort Lewis in Washington, and my siblings and I were born on McCord Air Force Base. And so we stayed in Washington state for quite some time while my father was deployed in several conflicts in the world. And that's where I went to high school, to Spanaway Lake High School. And it's, Washington is home for me. But I traveled extensively.

[Assistant] Not a total army brat.

[User] Not a total army brat, but definitely in the sense that my family, we were, my family was very supportive of my father being that he was away a lot during my childhood on different deployments all around the world. I was actually, my father was in Korea when I was born. And he also served in Germany, and he did several deployments abroad. And I think that's really what kind of opened my eyes. The first thing that opened my eyes to the world around us is just that, oh, Daddy's where? And my mom would show us on the map. Daddy's here or Daddy's there. So I knew that a wider world existed in my child mind, but I got the chance to explore that world as an adult.

[Assistant] How many siblings do you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, my parents made a conscious decision, although we did travel when we were very young in our elementary school era. But my mother really wanted us to be stable in our schooling in high school and middle school. So we stayed in Washington state. So my father was based at Fort Lewis in Washington, and my siblings and I were born on McCord Air Force Base. And so we stayed in Washington state for quite some time while my father was deployed in several conflicts in the world. And that's where I went to high school, to Spanaway Lake High School. And it's, Washington is home for me. But I traveled extensively.

[Assistant] Not a total army brat.

[User] Not a total army brat, but definitely in the sense that my family, we were, my family was very supportive of my father being that he was away a lot during my childhood on different deployments all around the world. I was actually, my father was in Korea when I was born. And he also served in Germany, and he did several deployments abroad. And I think that's really what kind of opened my eyes. The first thing that opened my eyes to the world around us is just that, oh, Daddy's where? And my mom would show us on the map. Daddy's here or Daddy's there. So I knew that a wider world existed in my child mind, but I got the chance to explore that world as an adult.

[Assistant] How many siblings do you have?

[User] We are one of four. I am the eldest daughter, but the third child.

[Assistant] And where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a total army brat, but definitely in the sense that my family, we were, my family was very supportive of my father being that he was away a lot during my childhood on different deployments all around the world. I was actually, my father was in Korea when I was born. And he also served in Germany, and he did several deployments abroad. And I think that's really what kind of opened my eyes. The first thing that opened my eyes to the world around us is just that, oh, Daddy's where? And my mom would show us on the map. Daddy's here or Daddy's there. So I knew that a wider world existed in my child mind, but I got the chance to explore that world as an adult.

[Assistant] How many siblings do you have?

[User] We are one of four. I am the eldest daughter, but the third child.

[Assistant] And where did you go to college?

[User] I went to college at the University of Washington. Go dogs! I am a Husky and there I did five years. I had to do a victory lap year. So I graduated in 2008. I started school in 2003 and I studied Spanish and international relations with a Latin American focus.

[Assistant] Oh. And you actually went to the Peace Corps and spoke Spanish. A rare thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are one of four. I am the eldest daughter, but the third child.

[Assistant] And where did you go to college?

[User] I went to college at the University of Washington. Go dogs! I am a Husky and there I did five years. I had to do a victory lap year. So I graduated in 2008. I started school in 2003 and I studied Spanish and international relations with a Latin American focus.

[Assistant] Oh. And you actually went to the Peace Corps and spoke Spanish. A rare thing.

[User] Very rare.

[Assistant] Many people say they spoke French or Spanish, and then they were sent far away, somewhere else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to college at the University of Washington. Go dogs! I am a Husky and there I did five years. I had to do a victory lap year. So I graduated in 2008. I started school in 2003 and I studied Spanish and international relations with a Latin American focus.

[Assistant] Oh. And you actually went to the Peace Corps and spoke Spanish. A rare thing.

[User] Very rare.

[Assistant] Many people say they spoke French or Spanish, and then they were sent far away, somewhere else.

[User] I actually did get the opportunity to speak the language that I studied, although I must say that studying a language in college does not mean you speak it. And I learned that for myself because although I had a degree in Spanish, the conversational Spanish, that piece I did not have. And looking back, I'm very grateful that I learned it the way I did with the theory and the grammar first and then really conversational and colloquial Spanish second because I could kind of code switch. So I could be very proper in Spanish and I could speak with my counterparts in the fields or in the villages with my Spanish that I learned in the communities. So it was the best of both worlds and it definitely helped me in my service.

[Assistant] So you graduated college in 2008. And then you joined the Peace Corps in 2013. What did you do in between?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very rare.

[Assistant] Many people say they spoke French or Spanish, and then they were sent far away, somewhere else.

[User] I actually did get the opportunity to speak the language that I studied, although I must say that studying a language in college does not mean you speak it. And I learned that for myself because although I had a degree in Spanish, the conversational Spanish, that piece I did not have. And looking back, I'm very grateful that I learned it the way I did with the theory and the grammar first and then really conversational and colloquial Spanish second because I could kind of code switch. So I could be very proper in Spanish and I could speak with my counterparts in the fields or in the villages with my Spanish that I learned in the communities. So it was the best of both worlds and it definitely helped me in my service.

[Assistant] So you graduated college in 2008. And then you joined the Peace Corps in 2013. What did you do in between?

[User] So my Peace Corps story was a winding road because I decided that I needed a graduate degree before I did anything. I worked for a year after I graduated from college, and then I decided to enter into the Peace Corps Master's International program, which no longer exists.

[Assistant] Why don't you say what that is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very fortunate. Peace Corps saved my life, basically.

[Assistant] So you're totally free now?

[User] Right. I will always have a condition that requires me to be aware of my body, what I put into my body, how I treat my body. So my kidneys are definitely not out of the woods and they never will be. But I can control how much damage happens because now I know about it. So now I'm very, I'm very healthy. I've never not been healthy. But now I'm actively and conscious about the decisions that I make concerning my eating habits, exercising, the environments that I'm in, just to prolong the life of my kidneys for as long as possible.

[Assistant] OK, so that's an unusual application process, right?

[User] Yes, it was a long, long.

[Assistant] So they finally decided that your condition was stable enough so that you could join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I will always have a condition that requires me to be aware of my body, what I put into my body, how I treat my body. So my kidneys are definitely not out of the woods and they never will be. But I can control how much damage happens because now I know about it. So now I'm very, I'm very healthy. I've never not been healthy. But now I'm actively and conscious about the decisions that I make concerning my eating habits, exercising, the environments that I'm in, just to prolong the life of my kidneys for as long as possible.

[Assistant] OK, so that's an unusual application process, right?

[User] Yes, it was a long, long.

[Assistant] So they finally decided that your condition was stable enough so that you could join?

[User] Exactly. They did. But it was so random how it happened. There was no fanfare. There was no official letter. The letter came after the fact. But I just received a phone call in the middle of the day from headquarters from a young woman who asked me, we've received her application and we see that you have been in medical hold for a considerable amount of time. We have a post available in El Salvador. Do you accept? And I had to say yes or no at that moment, otherwise, my application just. It had been on hold for too long. So it was either do it now or not at all.

[Assistant] And presumably you were working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a long, long.

[Assistant] So they finally decided that your condition was stable enough so that you could join?

[User] Exactly. They did. But it was so random how it happened. There was no fanfare. There was no official letter. The letter came after the fact. But I just received a phone call in the middle of the day from headquarters from a young woman who asked me, we've received her application and we see that you have been in medical hold for a considerable amount of time. We have a post available in El Salvador. Do you accept? And I had to say yes or no at that moment, otherwise, my application just. It had been on hold for too long. So it was either do it now or not at all.

[Assistant] And presumably you were working.

[User] I was working, you know, I had my life kind of going in Chicago, and I still had hope for my Peace Corps application. But it was not something that was top of mind in that time, you know, because my degree was still on hold too because I hadn't finished. Yeah, I hadn't finished my thesis. So in that time, they made an exception for me to do a different type of overseas assignment so I could at least get my graduate degree within those that timeframe. Because I was already three years out from when I originally did my coursework at the university. So in that time I went to China, but I got really sick in China and I was deported. So I came back to Chicago to live with my parents.

[Assistant] You were deported?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dad was just thrilled. He just said, you go out there, do what you do best, leave it better than you found it. And my mom, of course, mothers. My mom was just, call me every day. Make sure you take your medicine. Don't do anything I wouldn't do. You're going to do great, but just make sure that you're in contact. Now, little did I know that having contact in the Peace Corps, it can mean very, very different things depending on where you serve and how far off the grid you are. And my site was probably one of the furthest off the grid.

[Assistant] We'll get to that in a minute.

[User] We'll get to that. But my parents were very excited for me, very supportive throughout the whole process. And I couldn't be more grateful and thankful for the family that I have, just the family unit, that expectation of service. Not only that, but just the love and the care that they put into developing my siblings and I into adults that contribute to society overall.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Kudos to them, Rob and Crystal Grigsby. Just awesome individuals and I love them so much.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. So you packed up your life and where did you meet up with the rest of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We'll get to that. But my parents were very excited for me, very supportive throughout the whole process. And I couldn't be more grateful and thankful for the family that I have, just the family unit, that expectation of service. Not only that, but just the love and the care that they put into developing my siblings and I into adults that contribute to society overall.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Kudos to them, Rob and Crystal Grigsby. Just awesome individuals and I love them so much.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. So you packed up your life and where did you meet up with the rest of the group?

[User] So I flew in from Chicago. I missed my plane three times because I went to the wrong airport. There are two major airports in Chicago, Midway and O'Hare. For some reason, I don't know why, I went to Midway, which is the smaller of the two airports, instead of O'Hare. And so I missed every single flight. They had to rebook me three times in order to get there. I arrived at staging in Washington, D.C., I think a full five hours late, five or six. So I missed the first whole day almost. And I literally packed everything I had. I just I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking that Peace Corps was going to be this glamorous just over the top fabulous place. I had, what I was wearing. I was wearing this really great pencil skirt with four-inch heels and a blazer and some type of shimmery sheer blouse and I mean, I was just way overdone. I didn't realize Peace Corps is.

[Assistant] Not that fancy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe, I'm not sure, but I lived in Siete de Marzo, and it was our little training community. Every day we would walk into Nuevo Cuscatlán and we rented out a little house there that we had our sessions and our classes and our Spanish classes as well.

[Assistant] How many people were in your group?

[User] In my group, there was 15 altogether. So pretty small, pretty small.

[Assistant] And these were all in community organization?

[User] Yes, we were all in community organization and economic development. Yes. But we lived. We lived together. Not everyone lived in Siete de Marzo, but we all lived very close by and we all walked together, or took the bus when we were feeling lazy, to go to Nuevo Cuscatlán to do our classes. But it was.

[Assistant] How was the training? Was it helpful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my group, there was 15 altogether. So pretty small, pretty small.

[Assistant] And these were all in community organization?

[User] Yes, we were all in community organization and economic development. Yes. But we lived. We lived together. Not everyone lived in Siete de Marzo, but we all lived very close by and we all walked together, or took the bus when we were feeling lazy, to go to Nuevo Cuscatlán to do our classes. But it was.

[Assistant] How was the training? Was it helpful?

[User] Training was definitely helpful. I think there are some things that cannot be taught. You really learn on the job in the Peace Corps. But as far as culture, food, dynamics and the norms in different interactions with people. How to just be on your, be your best and represent not only yourself, but the United States, in the best way possible. A lot of people were concerned with me because not, most people did not think that I was American, as an African American woman. My training, my teachers and the different trainers in Nuevo Cuscatlán, they told me that I would be something that was very curious to people. People would look at me.

[Assistant] That they haven't seen African Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were all in community organization and economic development. Yes. But we lived. We lived together. Not everyone lived in Siete de Marzo, but we all lived very close by and we all walked together, or took the bus when we were feeling lazy, to go to Nuevo Cuscatlán to do our classes. But it was.

[Assistant] How was the training? Was it helpful?

[User] Training was definitely helpful. I think there are some things that cannot be taught. You really learn on the job in the Peace Corps. But as far as culture, food, dynamics and the norms in different interactions with people. How to just be on your, be your best and represent not only yourself, but the United States, in the best way possible. A lot of people were concerned with me because not, most people did not think that I was American, as an African American woman. My training, my teachers and the different trainers in Nuevo Cuscatlán, they told me that I would be something that was very curious to people. People would look at me.

[Assistant] That they haven't seen African Americans?

[User] No. There is not a large Afro population at all in El Salvador. I think in the two and a half years I was there, I maybe counted five or so.

[Assistant] Were you the only African American in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was definitely helpful. I think there are some things that cannot be taught. You really learn on the job in the Peace Corps. But as far as culture, food, dynamics and the norms in different interactions with people. How to just be on your, be your best and represent not only yourself, but the United States, in the best way possible. A lot of people were concerned with me because not, most people did not think that I was American, as an African American woman. My training, my teachers and the different trainers in Nuevo Cuscatlán, they told me that I would be something that was very curious to people. People would look at me.

[Assistant] That they haven't seen African Americans?

[User] No. There is not a large Afro population at all in El Salvador. I think in the two and a half years I was there, I maybe counted five or so.

[Assistant] Were you the only African American in the group?

[User] In my group, yes. Yes, I was. Let me just go through my head real quick and make sure. Yes, I was. But going down the street, people would always come up to me. They would want to touch my hair. They would ask me questions about my skin. They would ask me about my nationality. I was always African. The people just did not believe that I was American because Americans don't look like me. Of course. And then they would just be so.

[Assistant] Because you were black or because you were tall or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my group, yes. Yes, I was. Let me just go through my head real quick and make sure. Yes, I was. But going down the street, people would always come up to me. They would want to touch my hair. They would ask me questions about my skin. They would ask me about my nationality. I was always African. The people just did not believe that I was American because Americans don't look like me. Of course. And then they would just be so.

[Assistant] Because you were black or because you were tall or?

[User] Because I was black, because I am black. And tall. Being tall was just hilarious to them because they, women, tall women is not something that they see at all in El Salvador. People are very short. They're very short and stout. So me being 6'2" and.

[Assistant] And thin.

[User] Uh huh, and thin. A black woman who's single with no children and, oh my goodness, I was just. I might as well have been an alien because I was just everything that they didn't understand. So I actually took that as an opportunity to share my culture and to share just the things that I believed and the things that make me who I am. So it was an opportunity more than anything. And an opportunity to practice my Spanish.

[Assistant] So let's just go back to training a bit. So did you have to go through Spanish training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was black, because I am black. And tall. Being tall was just hilarious to them because they, women, tall women is not something that they see at all in El Salvador. People are very short. They're very short and stout. So me being 6'2" and.

[Assistant] And thin.

[User] Uh huh, and thin. A black woman who's single with no children and, oh my goodness, I was just. I might as well have been an alien because I was just everything that they didn't understand. So I actually took that as an opportunity to share my culture and to share just the things that I believed and the things that make me who I am. So it was an opportunity more than anything. And an opportunity to practice my Spanish.

[Assistant] So let's just go back to training a bit. So did you have to go through Spanish training?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Even though you were a Spanish major?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh, and thin. A black woman who's single with no children and, oh my goodness, I was just. I might as well have been an alien because I was just everything that they didn't understand. So I actually took that as an opportunity to share my culture and to share just the things that I believed and the things that make me who I am. So it was an opportunity more than anything. And an opportunity to practice my Spanish.

[Assistant] So let's just go back to training a bit. So did you have to go through Spanish training?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Even though you were a Spanish major?

[User] Yes. And I was so shocked and a little bit disappointed because I did not even place in the top Spanish group as far as conversationally. Not at all. I was in intermediate Spanish and I had. I could not believe it, but I have a degree. I have a degree in this. What do you mean that I am not superior? This makes no sense. What? But no, I was intermediate when I got to El Salvador and I had to go hash it out. I had to learn, you know, the conjugations and the sentence structures and the proper way to greet and the proper way to put together sentences and so many things. My vocabulary wasn't nearly as large as I thought it was, and just so many things.

[Assistant] Tells you something about language instruction in this country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Even though you were a Spanish major?

[User] Yes. And I was so shocked and a little bit disappointed because I did not even place in the top Spanish group as far as conversationally. Not at all. I was in intermediate Spanish and I had. I could not believe it, but I have a degree. I have a degree in this. What do you mean that I am not superior? This makes no sense. What? But no, I was intermediate when I got to El Salvador and I had to go hash it out. I had to learn, you know, the conjugations and the sentence structures and the proper way to greet and the proper way to put together sentences and so many things. My vocabulary wasn't nearly as large as I thought it was, and just so many things.

[Assistant] Tells you something about language instruction in this country.

[User]
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I was shocked. I was shocked. I had been studying Spanish since the ninth grade, probably a little earlier, probably seriously since the sixth grade. But when I got to college and that being my focus, it was all the time. All of my classes were in Spanish, so I knew I knew it. I understand this language but understanding and fluency is a very different thing. Speaking and being able to pick out the structure of a sentence. But the funny thing about it is going through Spanish classes made me understand the parts of speech in English better. So we learned how to speak English just naturally, just through conversation. Our parents, our surroundings, siblings.

But learning Spanish, since I learned it backwards, I could pick out verbs and adjectives and nouns and gerunds and the conjugations and the different forms. The tu form, the I, the yo form, all of these, the ways that we speak to each other. And that made me understand, woah, structure in English is not quite the same, but now I can understand structure in a different way. So that was very helpful after I got outside of my ego and being so shocked.

[Assistant] And then what was the training like for community organization and economic development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, the training was broad, I will say. There was so much to learn.

[Assistant] What were you supposed to be doing in your program? Was that clear to you?

[User] No, not for me. But I will say that the staff in El Salvador, they wanted us to go into our sites with an open mind and open hearts more than anything. Don't go in as the American that knows everything. Go in as the American who wants to listen, who wants to learn, and who wants to assist. So that's what I did. The first year as a Peace Corps volunteer I just got to know people. I went to houses and I sat and drank lukewarm instant coffee and these little cookies, sugar cookies. And I would walk. My little village, it was one big circle, so I would walk it and I would hang out with the kids.

[Assistant] So where were you assigned? So you finished training.

[User] I finished training, yes.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to say about training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not for me. But I will say that the staff in El Salvador, they wanted us to go into our sites with an open mind and open hearts more than anything. Don't go in as the American that knows everything. Go in as the American who wants to listen, who wants to learn, and who wants to assist. So that's what I did. The first year as a Peace Corps volunteer I just got to know people. I went to houses and I sat and drank lukewarm instant coffee and these little cookies, sugar cookies. And I would walk. My little village, it was one big circle, so I would walk it and I would hang out with the kids.

[Assistant] So where were you assigned? So you finished training.

[User] I finished training, yes.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to say about training?

[User] Training was helpful after the fact. I did not. I did not immediately see the value in training until I was well into my second year.

[Assistant] And then it made sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I finished training, yes.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to say about training?

[User] Training was helpful after the fact. I did not. I did not immediately see the value in training until I was well into my second year.

[Assistant] And then it made sense.

[User] Then it made sense. And then the aha moments came almost daily.

[Assistant] So what in retrospect was useful then, the listening part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was helpful after the fact. I did not. I did not immediately see the value in training until I was well into my second year.

[Assistant] And then it made sense.

[User] Then it made sense. And then the aha moments came almost daily.

[Assistant] So what in retrospect was useful then, the listening part?

[User] The listening part and then the timing. There in El Salvador, people are not in a rush. They're not in a rush. They think things will get done in their own time. Things are there in order to bring people together. It's not necessarily about money. It's just all of these little golden nuggets that really kind of wash over American society as a whole. But just to be present and to just wait and to see how things happen. And maybe tweak something and then wait and see again. And then maybe if it needs another little tweak, try again.

[Assistant] So you learned that in training or you learned that afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The listening part and then the timing. There in El Salvador, people are not in a rush. They're not in a rush. They think things will get done in their own time. Things are there in order to bring people together. It's not necessarily about money. It's just all of these little golden nuggets that really kind of wash over American society as a whole. But just to be present and to just wait and to see how things happen. And maybe tweak something and then wait and see again. And then maybe if it needs another little tweak, try again.

[Assistant] So you learned that in training or you learned that afterwards?

[User] I learned that that is actually a thing in training. Like this is something that people do? What? I learned that in training and maybe even subliminally, I learned that in training, and then it came full circle as a volunteer.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] But also my trainers in El Salvador were so attentive to us. They wanted to make sure that we had everything we need to be successful. Because El Salvador was a red country, meaning that we could not travel freely throughout El Salvador. We could not travel, use public transportation, that was not, um, that was restricted. We could not, we couldn't cross department borders. So all, uh, we had a shuttle system. Once a week or twice a week, the shuttle would come to different parts of the country and pick up volunteers and take them across department borders to different areas if we wanted to collaborate with other volunteers or if we needed to come to the city. It just really depends. And then. [dog barks]

[Assistant] Excuse the distraction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I learned that that is actually a thing in training. Like this is something that people do? What? I learned that in training and maybe even subliminally, I learned that in training, and then it came full circle as a volunteer.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] But also my trainers in El Salvador were so attentive to us. They wanted to make sure that we had everything we need to be successful. Because El Salvador was a red country, meaning that we could not travel freely throughout El Salvador. We could not travel, use public transportation, that was not, um, that was restricted. We could not, we couldn't cross department borders. So all, uh, we had a shuttle system. Once a week or twice a week, the shuttle would come to different parts of the country and pick up volunteers and take them across department borders to different areas if we wanted to collaborate with other volunteers or if we needed to come to the city. It just really depends. And then. [dog barks]

[Assistant] Excuse the distraction.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] So why couldn't you travel? What was going on in El Salvador at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] So why couldn't you travel? What was going on in El Salvador at the time?

[User] There is a lot of socio-political strife going on. There was a lot of gang violence, MS-13 and the Mara Salvatrucha are prominent gangs. And priority number one is keeping the volunteer safe and in environments that they can be successful, healthy, and feel like they're safe. So even the capital in San Salvador where our headquarters is, our home office, it was off limits. We can only come to the capital for medical appointments, for emergencies, or if we were leaving the country, going to the airport, or coming back into the country.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Other than that, we were not allowed to come to San Salvador. Before my time in El Salvador, the country had been evacuated so that the program was shut down for a number of years. I'm not sure how many. But we were one of, I think we were the second group that got to come in when they reopened the country in early 2000, I want to say 2000. You know, I don't even know the date, but it was two thousand and something when they reopened the country for another group of volunteers to come in.

[Assistant] And where were you stationed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There is a lot of socio-political strife going on. There was a lot of gang violence, MS-13 and the Mara Salvatrucha are prominent gangs. And priority number one is keeping the volunteer safe and in environments that they can be successful, healthy, and feel like they're safe. So even the capital in San Salvador where our headquarters is, our home office, it was off limits. We can only come to the capital for medical appointments, for emergencies, or if we were leaving the country, going to the airport, or coming back into the country.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Other than that, we were not allowed to come to San Salvador. Before my time in El Salvador, the country had been evacuated so that the program was shut down for a number of years. I'm not sure how many. But we were one of, I think we were the second group that got to come in when they reopened the country in early 2000, I want to say 2000. You know, I don't even know the date, but it was two thousand and something when they reopened the country for another group of volunteers to come in.

[Assistant] And where were you stationed?

[User] I was stationed in the Department of Morazán and it was right on the border of Honduras. In fact, my village was a 10 minute walk from the border. There was a river that separated us, the river San Antonio. And it was a river that my kids in the community loved to play in on hot days, which was every day.

[Assistant] So was that a safe area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than that, we were not allowed to come to San Salvador. Before my time in El Salvador, the country had been evacuated so that the program was shut down for a number of years. I'm not sure how many. But we were one of, I think we were the second group that got to come in when they reopened the country in early 2000, I want to say 2000. You know, I don't even know the date, but it was two thousand and something when they reopened the country for another group of volunteers to come in.

[Assistant] And where were you stationed?

[User] I was stationed in the Department of Morazán and it was right on the border of Honduras. In fact, my village was a 10 minute walk from the border. There was a river that separated us, the river San Antonio. And it was a river that my kids in the community loved to play in on hot days, which was every day.

[Assistant] So was that a safe area?

[User] For me, absolutely. Because my village was so small. There was 250 people, men, women and children all living together in provisional housing that they've made out of mud bricks and hay and straw.

[Assistant] So there were no gangs there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was stationed in the Department of Morazán and it was right on the border of Honduras. In fact, my village was a 10 minute walk from the border. There was a river that separated us, the river San Antonio. And it was a river that my kids in the community loved to play in on hot days, which was every day.

[Assistant] So was that a safe area?

[User] For me, absolutely. Because my village was so small. There was 250 people, men, women and children all living together in provisional housing that they've made out of mud bricks and hay and straw.

[Assistant] So there were no gangs there.

[User] Oh no. And if there were little outcroppings of gangs, the children who were trying to to be of that mindset, the community leaders would stamp it out immediately.

[Assistant] So the gangs were mostly in the city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For me, absolutely. Because my village was so small. There was 250 people, men, women and children all living together in provisional housing that they've made out of mud bricks and hay and straw.

[Assistant] So there were no gangs there.

[User] Oh no. And if there were little outcroppings of gangs, the children who were trying to to be of that mindset, the community leaders would stamp it out immediately.

[Assistant] So the gangs were mostly in the city?

[User] Absolutely, mostly in the cities. So that's why the majority of our cohort were placed in rural areas. Very, very few of us were in cities or in large metropolitan areas.

[Assistant] How did you get to the, how did you get to your town when you were placed there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, mostly in the cities. So that's why the majority of our cohort were placed in rural areas. Very, very few of us were in cities or in large metropolitan areas.

[Assistant] How did you get to the, how did you get to your town when you were placed there?

[User] When I was placed there, I was picked up by my community contact Glenda Argueta and the local alcalde, which is the mayor. They picked me up in the pickup truck of the nearest town and they drove me the eight hours. Felt like eight hours. I could probably get there in six, but I think that day we took a few stops because they wanted me to see the area and know about El Salvador. Salvadorans have so much pride for their country and they love their patria. So we stopped and we toured a little bit in the country before we got to my site. And they dropped me off at the bottom of this dusty road. It's not even a road. It was a path full of rocks and dirt, and it was lined with trees and stray dogs just everywhere. And they said, OK, well, this is it.

[Assistant] So yeah.

[User] And that was it. That was the last time I rode in a car for many, many months.

[Assistant] And you were alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was placed there, I was picked up by my community contact Glenda Argueta and the local alcalde, which is the mayor. They picked me up in the pickup truck of the nearest town and they drove me the eight hours. Felt like eight hours. I could probably get there in six, but I think that day we took a few stops because they wanted me to see the area and know about El Salvador. Salvadorans have so much pride for their country and they love their patria. So we stopped and we toured a little bit in the country before we got to my site. And they dropped me off at the bottom of this dusty road. It's not even a road. It was a path full of rocks and dirt, and it was lined with trees and stray dogs just everywhere. And they said, OK, well, this is it.

[Assistant] So yeah.

[User] And that was it. That was the last time I rode in a car for many, many months.

[Assistant] And you were alone.

[User] I was alone. Yes. I did not have another volunteer in my site. I think the closest volunteer to me was at least an hour and a half, two hours away on bus, although the distance may not have been so long. The route and the timing was much longer because it was winding roads that went up and down mountainsides. None of the roads were paved at all. There was either dirt roads or roads made of stones kind of thrown together in a semi-organized manner. And the transportation. Once I hiked out of my site, which took about, when I got good at it, it took about 45 minutes. But when I started, it was at least an hour and 15 minutes, hour and a half, hiking straight up a hill to get out of my site into our neighboring town of Joateca. And that's where the busses would be.

[Assistant] In the neighboring town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was it. That was the last time I rode in a car for many, many months.

[Assistant] And you were alone.

[User] I was alone. Yes. I did not have another volunteer in my site. I think the closest volunteer to me was at least an hour and a half, two hours away on bus, although the distance may not have been so long. The route and the timing was much longer because it was winding roads that went up and down mountainsides. None of the roads were paved at all. There was either dirt roads or roads made of stones kind of thrown together in a semi-organized manner. And the transportation. Once I hiked out of my site, which took about, when I got good at it, it took about 45 minutes. But when I started, it was at least an hour and 15 minutes, hour and a half, hiking straight up a hill to get out of my site into our neighboring town of Joateca. And that's where the busses would be.

[Assistant] In the neighboring town?

[User] Mm hmm, in the neighboring town, the busses to anywhere outside of our community. And these busses were the same busses that I'm sure I rode when I was in elementary school. You know, the big yellow Blue Bell busses, but these are pimped out busses. They had all kinds of intricate designs and bright colors and bells and fringes and those big horns.

[Assistant] But basically school busses.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was alone. Yes. I did not have another volunteer in my site. I think the closest volunteer to me was at least an hour and a half, two hours away on bus, although the distance may not have been so long. The route and the timing was much longer because it was winding roads that went up and down mountainsides. None of the roads were paved at all. There was either dirt roads or roads made of stones kind of thrown together in a semi-organized manner. And the transportation. Once I hiked out of my site, which took about, when I got good at it, it took about 45 minutes. But when I started, it was at least an hour and 15 minutes, hour and a half, hiking straight up a hill to get out of my site into our neighboring town of Joateca. And that's where the busses would be.

[Assistant] In the neighboring town?

[User] Mm hmm, in the neighboring town, the busses to anywhere outside of our community. And these busses were the same busses that I'm sure I rode when I was in elementary school. You know, the big yellow Blue Bell busses, but these are pimped out busses. They had all kinds of intricate designs and bright colors and bells and fringes and those big horns.

[Assistant] But basically school busses.

[User] Yes, they were absolutely school busses. Absolutely. Sometimes they would have the back exit door just open so men could hang halfway out the bus. And I don't know, I thought, I guess it was something cool to do, if you hang out the bus. Everybody would fight for that back seat so you can kind of dangle your legs from the exit door. But of course, that was prohibited for us. But every then the busses only left three times a day and it was at 4:30 a.m., 5:00 a.m., and 5:45 a.m. If you missed those busses, you were stuck. So I remember many days.

[Assistant] Why so early, to get into the big city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm, in the neighboring town, the busses to anywhere outside of our community. And these busses were the same busses that I'm sure I rode when I was in elementary school. You know, the big yellow Blue Bell busses, but these are pimped out busses. They had all kinds of intricate designs and bright colors and bells and fringes and those big horns.

[Assistant] But basically school busses.

[User] Yes, they were absolutely school busses. Absolutely. Sometimes they would have the back exit door just open so men could hang halfway out the bus. And I don't know, I thought, I guess it was something cool to do, if you hang out the bus. Everybody would fight for that back seat so you can kind of dangle your legs from the exit door. But of course, that was prohibited for us. But every then the busses only left three times a day and it was at 4:30 a.m., 5:00 a.m., and 5:45 a.m. If you missed those busses, you were stuck. So I remember many days.

[Assistant] Why so early, to get into the big city?

[User] Because it took so long to get from Joateca, which is the largest neighboring town, to Gotera, which is where most people did all of their shopping. That was a three, three and a half hour ride. And you know, if you leave at 5:00 in the morning, then you'll get there by 8:00. And most people start opening up shops and doing all of their, you know, their shopping and their just goings-about at that hour in the morning.

[Assistant] And then you could get back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were absolutely school busses. Absolutely. Sometimes they would have the back exit door just open so men could hang halfway out the bus. And I don't know, I thought, I guess it was something cool to do, if you hang out the bus. Everybody would fight for that back seat so you can kind of dangle your legs from the exit door. But of course, that was prohibited for us. But every then the busses only left three times a day and it was at 4:30 a.m., 5:00 a.m., and 5:45 a.m. If you missed those busses, you were stuck. So I remember many days.

[Assistant] Why so early, to get into the big city?

[User] Because it took so long to get from Joateca, which is the largest neighboring town, to Gotera, which is where most people did all of their shopping. That was a three, three and a half hour ride. And you know, if you leave at 5:00 in the morning, then you'll get there by 8:00. And most people start opening up shops and doing all of their, you know, their shopping and their just goings-about at that hour in the morning.

[Assistant] And then you could get back?

[User] Then you could get back. There is a midday bus that went back. And so usually everybody would be on the midday bus coming back. But that was it. If you missed those three busses, you had to wait till the next day.

[Assistant] So where did you live in this town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it took so long to get from Joateca, which is the largest neighboring town, to Gotera, which is where most people did all of their shopping. That was a three, three and a half hour ride. And you know, if you leave at 5:00 in the morning, then you'll get there by 8:00. And most people start opening up shops and doing all of their, you know, their shopping and their just goings-about at that hour in the morning.

[Assistant] And then you could get back?

[User] Then you could get back. There is a midday bus that went back. And so usually everybody would be on the midday bus coming back. But that was it. If you missed those three busses, you had to wait till the next day.

[Assistant] So where did you live in this town?

[User] I lived in a little village called Estanzuela. Estanzuela was a suburb, and I use that term very loosely, of Joateca. It is a tiny town. All the houses are made of adobe, homemade adobe, and sink roofs. It is a very poor area. Most of the town really survived on agriculture. The cash crops were beans, coffee, and corn, and most of the men were farmers. They farmed land that they owned and had been passed down throughout the family or land that they rented from larger landowners. A lot of the children, and I should say adult children, had gone to the United States and a lot of families lived off of remesas that were sent back. So money sent back from family members that are working in the United States. So it was, you know, a very economically impoverished area, but people were so happy, so incredibly happy. And of course, there was me. I felt like the first at least six months I just struggled just to get the swing of life down.

[Assistant] And you lived by, did you live by yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did not. I lived with a host family. My mother's name was Sybilla, and Sybilla and I had a great relationship, but she wasn't an overbearing host mother at all. She kind of let me do what I needed to do, and if I ever needed anything, she was always there, willing and able to help. And the funniest thing about it was when I first arrived at my house, everybody just kind of looked at me and they said, well, you know, we were really hoping to get an American. I mean, you're cool. We'll keep you too. But when our American gets here, we're going to have to give them the house that we set aside for them. But you can stay here for now. And that was.

[Assistant] Because you were African.

[User] Yeah, because I was African to everybody. So I had to go through this process of proving myself that, no, I'm actually the volunteer that you solicited. It's me and there's no one else coming, just me. But they were like, no, I mean, you can stay, but just know when the real volunteer gets here, we'll have to move you to another place. They were very gentle in telling me this.

[Assistant] Wait, do you think they were? Were they discriminating against you? Or just that you were strange?

[User] I think that they were utterly confused, just like, what? I thought we were getting an American.

[Assistant] But in El Salvador, they don't have racial differences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because I was African to everybody. So I had to go through this process of proving myself that, no, I'm actually the volunteer that you solicited. It's me and there's no one else coming, just me. But they were like, no, I mean, you can stay, but just know when the real volunteer gets here, we'll have to move you to another place. They were very gentle in telling me this.

[Assistant] Wait, do you think they were? Were they discriminating against you? Or just that you were strange?

[User] I think that they were utterly confused, just like, what? I thought we were getting an American.

[Assistant] But in El Salvador, they don't have racial differences?

[User] There definitely are. There is, in my mind, there's a lot of discrimination against people of indigenous heritage. So the darker you are, they say indios. You look like an indio because you have a darker complexion, and those are indigenous people.

[Assistant] And they are discriminated against?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that they were utterly confused, just like, what? I thought we were getting an American.

[Assistant] But in El Salvador, they don't have racial differences?

[User] There definitely are. There is, in my mind, there's a lot of discrimination against people of indigenous heritage. So the darker you are, they say indios. You look like an indio because you have a darker complexion, and those are indigenous people.

[Assistant] And they are discriminated against?

[User] Oh yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

[Assistant] So it must have been a relief for once.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

[Assistant] So it must have been a relief for once.

[User] It was just very interesting because there were so many things going on, just the juxtaposition of me being black and American, but not quite American enough. And because I was dark-skinned, but I think just me being an American superseded everything. As the American, it doesn't really matter that you're black. OK, we'll take that, and we'll just ask you a lot of questions to see if you're actually.

[Assistant] American.

[User] American. You're a woman and you're single? That's, well, that's OK. We will take it, whatever.

[Assistant] But what's wrong with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that took the entire two years of service to get to the point where people would just even talk to each other about these very intimate, very deep-rooted feelings that they've carried with them for their lifetimes. And I will say that it was just, it's a family unit. There was only three last names in my whole village. And so they were Blanco, Pereira, and Argueta, were the three last names that everyone had. And so.

[Assistant] So you can't really escape.

[User] No, you can't. Because it's so entrenched. It's everybody knows everybody and everyone is related to everyone. So, yeah, you know exactly who you're talking about when you're telling the story of what happened to you as a child, or when you were just married off to such-and-such a person, how this individual treated you. All of these things. They're each other's family members. So it was a difficult process, but necessary.

[Assistant] Are there repercussions when somebody says something? Does it get back to the man?

[User] I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. But by the end of the service, the women were strong enough as a unit to not allow any one woman to be singled out. So there it was definitely power in numbers. And I hope that it continued even after I left. But I cannot say for sure that it is still a strong unit, the strong unit that we built together in those two years. I hope so. I honestly and truly hope so.

[Assistant] What did you do? So you just got to meet them. And how did you end up pulling this group together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. But by the end of the service, the women were strong enough as a unit to not allow any one woman to be singled out. So there it was definitely power in numbers. And I hope that it continued even after I left. But I cannot say for sure that it is still a strong unit, the strong unit that we built together in those two years. I hope so. I honestly and truly hope so.

[Assistant] What did you do? So you just got to meet them. And how did you end up pulling this group together?

[User] My projects came organically. I knew of my focus. I know what I wanted my focus to be, but I did not have a map to how to make that happen. It took, like I said before, it took a year of just sitting with people and talking with people and drinking lots of lukewarm coffee and instant. I forget the name of the coffee we used to drink.

[Assistant] Nescafe?

[User] Yeah, it was Nescafe! Yes, it was. It was Nescafe. It was terrible. But we drank it every day.

[Assistant] Which is strange for a country that grows coffee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My projects came organically. I knew of my focus. I know what I wanted my focus to be, but I did not have a map to how to make that happen. It took, like I said before, it took a year of just sitting with people and talking with people and drinking lots of lukewarm coffee and instant. I forget the name of the coffee we used to drink.

[Assistant] Nescafe?

[User] Yeah, it was Nescafe! Yes, it was. It was Nescafe. It was terrible. But we drank it every day.

[Assistant] Which is strange for a country that grows coffee.

[User] Exactly. Their coffee is exported. And when they can get a significant financial gain from the products that they grow, of course, they're going to send their best overseas for export and just they'll take what's the sloppy seconds. So we had Nescafe. So we did that and it was a year of being patient, which is not my strong suit. It was a year of being quiet, which is also hard for me. To listen and just accept that reality in that moment, this is what's happening. I saw it all around me. What do I need to do to change it? But of course, as a person who I am in our society, we see a problem. We have to fix it immediately. Fix, go, put. What can I do to make this right? Do it. But in El Salvador, you cannot rush because it will fall apart. And you have to act appropriately within the culture. So just the fact that I am a woman myself and I don't fit into their description of womanhood, I had to walk very carefully. It is a very fine line on how to address this issue.

[Assistant] What did your host mom say to all of us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was Nescafe! Yes, it was. It was Nescafe. It was terrible. But we drank it every day.

[Assistant] Which is strange for a country that grows coffee.

[User] Exactly. Their coffee is exported. And when they can get a significant financial gain from the products that they grow, of course, they're going to send their best overseas for export and just they'll take what's the sloppy seconds. So we had Nescafe. So we did that and it was a year of being patient, which is not my strong suit. It was a year of being quiet, which is also hard for me. To listen and just accept that reality in that moment, this is what's happening. I saw it all around me. What do I need to do to change it? But of course, as a person who I am in our society, we see a problem. We have to fix it immediately. Fix, go, put. What can I do to make this right? Do it. But in El Salvador, you cannot rush because it will fall apart. And you have to act appropriately within the culture. So just the fact that I am a woman myself and I don't fit into their description of womanhood, I had to walk very carefully. It is a very fine line on how to address this issue.

[Assistant] What did your host mom say to all of us?

[User] You know, my host mom, she was not really involved in my project. She was older. She's well into her 80s and she stayed at the house. Her job was making sure her house was spotless, and she did a phenomenal job doing that. I know no one else, actually probably everyone else got up every morning before the sun came out to sweep a dirt floor. I did not understand why people swept dirt floors until the end, and it was all about presentation. I am making what I have, which is not much, the best that I can make it, so I will sweep this dirt floor until it looks like it's not even dirt. And she did that. She washed dishes. She prepared meals.

[Assistant] You had running water in the house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's what I had. I had beans and rice every single day. I ate a lot of eggs. They make this cheese called cuajada, and it can be very salty. But I learned to love it. And then, of course, you can never get your fill of tortillas. And that was one of the running jokes in my service is, how many tortillas can Asiha eat? And everyone was just so shocked that I could only finish one, maybe one and a half, because they were just so thick. In El Salvador, they're about the size of a small bowl around, and they're just thick. Maybe half an inch thick.

[Assistant] Very different.

[User] Very different from the tortillas that I had in my mind, which can fold to make tacos.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, no. It's more, it's used like a utensil. Rather than using forks and spoons, people just eat with a tortilla. They use their two, their pointer finger and their index finger and then their thumb. And they get your tortilla and you get a bit of beans and rice and you scoop it up with your tortilla and you just eat the whole thing.

[Assistant] So did you travel around the country as well or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very different from the tortillas that I had in my mind, which can fold to make tacos.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, no. It's more, it's used like a utensil. Rather than using forks and spoons, people just eat with a tortilla. They use their two, their pointer finger and their index finger and then their thumb. And they get your tortilla and you get a bit of beans and rice and you scoop it up with your tortilla and you just eat the whole thing.

[Assistant] So did you travel around the country as well or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You couldn't. Because of the restrictions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, no. It's more, it's used like a utensil. Rather than using forks and spoons, people just eat with a tortilla. They use their two, their pointer finger and their index finger and then their thumb. And they get your tortilla and you get a bit of beans and rice and you scoop it up with your tortilla and you just eat the whole thing.

[Assistant] So did you travel around the country as well or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You couldn't. Because of the restrictions.

[User] Because of the restrictions, I didn't travel much around the country, but I took it upon myself to be a part of the VAC, which is the Volunteer Advisory Committee. It's like ASB for Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] What is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because of the restrictions, I didn't travel much around the country, but I took it upon myself to be a part of the VAC, which is the Volunteer Advisory Committee. It's like ASB for Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] What is that?

[User] ASB, you know, if you go back to middle school and high school, it was your student advisory board.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it was the same thing, but for volunteers. So once a month, every six weeks, something like that, we chose a different place to go around the country to have our VAC meetings. So all the volunteers. There is one from each cohort and, or two, two from each cohort, that were the representatives for their cohorts. And we went to different places all around El Salvador. That was the only way I traveled, with VAC.

[Assistant] So you did get quite a bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was the same thing, but for volunteers. So once a month, every six weeks, something like that, we chose a different place to go around the country to have our VAC meetings. So all the volunteers. There is one from each cohort and, or two, two from each cohort, that were the representatives for their cohorts. And we went to different places all around El Salvador. That was the only way I traveled, with VAC.

[Assistant] So you did get quite a bit.

[User] I did. But as far as getting to know the area, I would say no. We would go and we'd stay overnight in a hotel, which was always the thrill of VAC meetings. We got showers with running water and a bed with sheets and so many creature comforts that we did not have in our sites. So it would honestly be just an escape, rest and relaxation one night in the hotel room. Oh my goodness, we got to do it on VAC, yes.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] That was. That's what I did.

[Assistant] So you did that for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. But as far as getting to know the area, I would say no. We would go and we'd stay overnight in a hotel, which was always the thrill of VAC meetings. We got showers with running water and a bed with sheets and so many creature comforts that we did not have in our sites. So it would honestly be just an escape, rest and relaxation one night in the hotel room. Oh my goodness, we got to do it on VAC, yes.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] That was. That's what I did.

[Assistant] So you did that for two years?

[User] I did. I did that for two years.

[Assistant] And then how did you end up re-upping in Panama?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was. That's what I did.

[Assistant] So you did that for two years?

[User] I did. I did that for two years.

[Assistant] And then how did you end up re-upping in Panama?

[User] In Panama. So I had a four month gap between my service in El Salvador to my service in Panama.

[Assistant] Many people stay a third year, but you chose not to stay a third year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Panama. So I had a four month gap between my service in El Salvador to my service in Panama.

[Assistant] Many people stay a third year, but you chose not to stay a third year.

[User] I chose not to stay a third year, even though I wanted to, because they shut down El Salvador.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So when I COSed in September of 2015, I -- so closed my service is COS -- I flew back home to Chicago. And in January they had shut down El Salvador as a Peace Corps country because of problems in security, just because of the violence of the threat of gangs and the government deemed that it was not a safe place to have a Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] So you couldn't stay at the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I chose not to stay a third year, even though I wanted to, because they shut down El Salvador.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So when I COSed in September of 2015, I -- so closed my service is COS -- I flew back home to Chicago. And in January they had shut down El Salvador as a Peace Corps country because of problems in security, just because of the violence of the threat of gangs and the government deemed that it was not a safe place to have a Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] So you couldn't stay at the?

[User] No, I could not. The program was officially closed at that point.

[Assistant] But you finished your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when I COSed in September of 2015, I -- so closed my service is COS -- I flew back home to Chicago. And in January they had shut down El Salvador as a Peace Corps country because of problems in security, just because of the violence of the threat of gangs and the government deemed that it was not a safe place to have a Peace Corps program.

[Assistant] So you couldn't stay at the?

[User] No, I could not. The program was officially closed at that point.

[Assistant] But you finished your second year?

[User] Yes, my group was the last group to actually COS. So all of the people in my cohort closed their service having done the full two years. The group that came after me did not. And I think there's actually two groups that had come in after me, and they did not. They were all taken out of the country and given options for different assignments in other countries, or to just close their service as a shortened service. So I was very happy for that, but very sad that the program in El Salvador was closed at that point.

[Assistant] So you went home and then went to Panama.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I could not. The program was officially closed at that point.

[Assistant] But you finished your second year?

[User] Yes, my group was the last group to actually COS. So all of the people in my cohort closed their service having done the full two years. The group that came after me did not. And I think there's actually two groups that had come in after me, and they did not. They were all taken out of the country and given options for different assignments in other countries, or to just close their service as a shortened service. So I was very happy for that, but very sad that the program in El Salvador was closed at that point.

[Assistant] So you went home and then went to Panama.

[User] I did. I went home in September and it was just so cold and dark and I was used to tropical weather. I was used to, you know, fruit on the trees and sun blazing down on you and just being extraordinarily hot. And then I come to Chicago in the late fall and when winter hit, I just said, I can't. I've had, I cannot do it. I've had enough. I'm going back to what I know. So I decided to take a position as a Response volunteer in Panama. So I did Panama, Peace Corps Response in Chiriquí, Panama, which is the northern border of Panama, right with Costa Rica. I worked as a small business consultant for an organic farming cooperative that specialized in mostly leafy greens, but also they grew carrots and all types of citrus fruits. They specialized in kale though, different varieties of kale. I always had fresh fruit and vegetables every day.

[Assistant] And this was a, I'm sorry this was a co-op that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked with them for 14 months.

[Assistant] Oh. So Response, I always thought Response was a very short period.

[User] It is. It depends on the assignment how long your actual project will be.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it can be anywhere from three months to a year or beyond. My assignment originally started off as a year, and I extended it for a couple of months longer to meet the goals that we set for ourselves.

[Assistant] So by that time, you were speaking Spanish well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. It depends on the assignment how long your actual project will be.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it can be anywhere from three months to a year or beyond. My assignment originally started off as a year, and I extended it for a couple of months longer to meet the goals that we set for ourselves.

[Assistant] So by that time, you were speaking Spanish well.

[User] Oh yeah, by that time I was excellent.

[Assistant] And where did you live then? Did you live in a city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it can be anywhere from three months to a year or beyond. My assignment originally started off as a year, and I extended it for a couple of months longer to meet the goals that we set for ourselves.

[Assistant] So by that time, you were speaking Spanish well.

[User] Oh yeah, by that time I was excellent.

[Assistant] And where did you live then? Did you live in a city?

[User]
I lived. I wouldn't call it a city, but it was definitely a large town. The town of Volcán inside of Chiriquí is actually a expat destination, an up and coming expat destination. I had a lot of American retirees who lived nearby and had these super giant homes. We had paved roads. We had actual grocery stores. We had a Super Selectos, I believe, was out there and was it Super Selectos? I don't remember the name, but we actually had a grocery store there. We had restaurants. There in Volcán was Volcán Barú, and that volcano is a hiker destination in Panama. People love to hike the trail, to get to the crater up there.

So it was a tourist destination and very different, very different from El Salvador. I think if I had done it in reverse, going from Panama to El Salvador, I would not have made it. But the fact that I started in the most rural, most off the grid, no toilet, no running water, no nothing, no windows, the animals all over me, insects, dengue. And then I went to Panama. It was just, wow, this is the life. I can actually take a bus to wherever I want to go.

[Assistant] And there was no violence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, by that time I was excellent.

[Assistant] And where did you live then? Did you live in a city?

[User]
I lived. I wouldn't call it a city, but it was definitely a large town. The town of Volcán inside of Chiriquí is actually a expat destination, an up and coming expat destination. I had a lot of American retirees who lived nearby and had these super giant homes. We had paved roads. We had actual grocery stores. We had a Super Selectos, I believe, was out there and was it Super Selectos? I don't remember the name, but we actually had a grocery store there. We had restaurants. There in Volcán was Volcán Barú, and that volcano is a hiker destination in Panama. People love to hike the trail, to get to the crater up there.

So it was a tourist destination and very different, very different from El Salvador. I think if I had done it in reverse, going from Panama to El Salvador, I would not have made it. But the fact that I started in the most rural, most off the grid, no toilet, no running water, no nothing, no windows, the animals all over me, insects, dengue. And then I went to Panama. It was just, wow, this is the life. I can actually take a bus to wherever I want to go.

[Assistant] And there was no violence.

[User] No, I never experienced violence. I never had any fears. It was very.

[Assistant] Did people think you were strange being African American in Panama?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think in that area, since it was such a high tourist destination, there has been many different faces and nationalities coming through there. So they were used to people from around the globe and they were used to foreigners. So, no, I wasn't as much of a shock. I still think that people were really like, wow, you're so tall, why are you so tall? But other than that, it was fine. It was fine. Occasionally, I would get people who would ask me, where are you from? And why do you speak Spanish so well? And a lot of people would think that I was from Colón. And Colón is in the canal zone and it is an Afro Caribbean, Afro Panamanian people down there. It's a region. Basically black people that are there. So a lot of people would think that I was from Colón in Panama. Then I tell them, no, I'm American. And then they would say, oh OK, then that would be that.

[Assistant] So you did that for a year. And then you came home or did you travel?

[User] Well, I did travel. I backpacked through Central America once I completed my service in Panama. I started off in Panama and went all the way up to Mexico. It was quite a trip. I was.

[Assistant] By yourself?

[User] Yes, by myself. I was so excited. That was what I wanted. I wanted to be in the world traveling with just the things on my back and the open road in front of me going on this epic adventure. Asiha against the world. Let's go.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask whatever happened to all the clothes you brought?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I did travel. I backpacked through Central America once I completed my service in Panama. I started off in Panama and went all the way up to Mexico. It was quite a trip. I was.

[Assistant] By yourself?

[User] Yes, by myself. I was so excited. That was what I wanted. I wanted to be in the world traveling with just the things on my back and the open road in front of me going on this epic adventure. Asiha against the world. Let's go.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask whatever happened to all the clothes you brought?

[User] Oh, I left them in my site. I couldn't. I went home from El Salvador twice. Once to graduate. I finally got my master's degree. I wrote my thesis on the patio of my host mother's home with a power cord slammed into the only outlet that we had. And I flew home in May of 2015 to walk at Rutgers for my graduation. I wanted that, that I felt like that was just coming full circle for me. So I walked across the stage then. And then I came home once again after a serious illness that I had in El Salvador. And I'm so thankful that they did not medical separate me from my service because I had dengue and I was hospitalized for about three weeks. But I was able to go home and just get some love and nourishment from my mom. I think that's all I needed. And put her fears at rest. And then I went back and finished my service.

[Assistant] So then after Panama, you went hiking through Central America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am. I went back to visit El Salvador last summer and I stayed with everyone in the community because when you go, you cannot just go and see a couple of people. You have to stop by everyone's house. You have to have coffee with every person, ask about their.

[Assistant] And it's still lukewarm, right?

[User] And it's still lukewarm. It's still really, really gross. But I drink it with a smile and with a warm heart because I get to share these moments with people who love me unconditionally. They just love me, and they honestly, they got a little jealous. They would get very, very like protectionists. I went to do a project in another site, collaborating with another volunteer who was close, quote unquote close by. And my community felt like I had just abandoned them because I went for a week to another community to do a project. And they just said, Asiha, are you leaving? What is this? Do you? Are you? Is there something we did? Are they taking you away from us? And I said, calm down, it's OK. So in a way, I was theirs. I was something that belonged to them.

[Assistant] And they weren't any volunteers before you or after so you were the one.

[User] I was the one. I was their volunteer. So going back is always a pleasure. I want to go at least every year or every other year. And cell phones are huge down there, so it's easy to Facetime them or everyone uses WhatsApp, so just sending little text messages and getting that connection is very important.

[Assistant] Have you stayed connected to the Peace Corps here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Say it now before I go into Shuttle, if you’ve got some more Apollo questions.

[Assistant] Sure. You had mentioned a few minutes ago the simulator for the LLTV [lunar landing training vehicle]. Was the LLTV something that was under your department?

[User] No, no. The LLTV was developed by the—who was it that headed up that one? I don’t know who headed that up. It was handled mainly out of the group that took care of the airplanes down at Ellington.

[Assistant] Aircraft Operations

[User] Yes. We just had to build a simulator for the simulator.

[Assistant] You had spoken earlier about the Gemini computer, but the Apollo guidance computer is much more complicated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. The LLTV was developed by the—who was it that headed up that one? I don’t know who headed that up. It was handled mainly out of the group that took care of the airplanes down at Ellington.

[Assistant] Aircraft Operations

[User] Yes. We just had to build a simulator for the simulator.

[Assistant] You had spoken earlier about the Gemini computer, but the Apollo guidance computer is much more complicated.

[User] Yes. I don’t know how many computers there were in that package, but there was many more than one. We kicked around many techniques on how to simulate the Apollo guidance computer, emulation, or so forth and so on, and our final decision was to actually get flight computers and use them. We didn’t have to worry about programming them, because they programmed them for the spacecraft, and we could just stick those programs in. Cost-wise, it was expensive, but it eased our problem quite a bit. Or did I—am I out of whack here? Wait a minute. I know in Shuttle we used flight computers. I’m not sure what we used in Apollo now.

[Assistant] There’s something called an interpreter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We just had to build a simulator for the simulator.

[Assistant] You had spoken earlier about the Gemini computer, but the Apollo guidance computer is much more complicated.

[User] Yes. I don’t know how many computers there were in that package, but there was many more than one. We kicked around many techniques on how to simulate the Apollo guidance computer, emulation, or so forth and so on, and our final decision was to actually get flight computers and use them. We didn’t have to worry about programming them, because they programmed them for the spacecraft, and we could just stick those programs in. Cost-wise, it was expensive, but it eased our problem quite a bit. Or did I—am I out of whack here? Wait a minute. I know in Shuttle we used flight computers. I’m not sure what we used in Apollo now.

[Assistant] There’s something called an interpreter.

[User] Yes, an interpreter, which took the instruction set that were written in one language and converted them into an instruction set that would work in the DDP-24s that we were using to animate the simulator.\n\n But you’ve asked a question. I’m going to back off on my answer. I’m not sure. I know in Shuttle—as I say, in fact, in Shuttle they have five computers in the simulator, just like they have five computers in the spacecraft, and care and feeding of those is not simple. But I’ll back off. I’ve forgotten exactly what we did. I know we weren’t happy with what we did in Gemini because the lead time was bad. So we did something different, but I can’t remember exactly what it was. Have to get one of my other experts. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s all right. We can find that out, I’m sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But I’m sure they’ve come up with a more rigid system on documentation these days.

[User] Hopefully. But, again, if it’s fix today’s problem or documenting yesterday’s solution, fix today’s problem takes priority. I’m sure of that.

[Assistant] Well, it makes good sense.

[User] It’s just they don’t have as many today problems. [Laughs]

[Assistant] At any point, either as early on as the NACA or later, did you have any interaction with the wider human factors community, or industrial psychologists, anything like that, in how to simulate things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t know Don before I met him in class. He was just one of my classmates. In fact, I didn’t even know he took the job here at Langley until I showed up at Langley and he was there, because Don did not live on campus, and so it wasn’t very much social contact. You saw him during a couple of hours a day in the classroom, and that was it.

[Assistant] Well, he’s certainly quite a character.

[User] Yes, he was, but a good engineer.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, he’s certainly one with, I think, very strong instincts about engineering.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, then we’ll move on to a couple of questions about the Gemini Program. The first flight was Gus Grissom and John Young. How prepared were the simulators for that first mission at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right, I hope I’ve done what you wanted.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] Having read several of these things way back several years ago, [Maxime A.] Faget and [Paul E.] Purser and [Joseph G. “Guy”] Thibodaux did some of these things, and they were much more politic-oriented at it. This was before there was such a thing as a Manned Spacecraft Center. These guys were working on the Mercury, what became the Mercury Program, for about a year before it actually formalized. They were more question-and-answer-type things, triggering thoughts from those guys.

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve had occasion to read those interviews, too.

[User] I learned things reading those, and I was there. [Laughs] But I didn’t know they had been working on it for over a year before they started, before it became public knowledge, and I didn’t know that Eisenhower made the big decision to make it a nonmilitary program.\n\n Okay.

[Assistant] Unless there are any final comments


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cranes are pretty much the unit that we use to assemble the SRBs [Solid Rocket Boosters], the ET [External Tank] and the Shuttle. We put the payload in the OPF [Orbiter Processing Facility] for the horizontal payload, and we use the 90-ton to put the vertical payloads in the pad. They’re pretty much essential. If we don’t have it, they cannot be assembled. That’s the bottom line on that one.

[Assistant] What are some of the important attributes [of crane operators]? Or what do you expect the people who work in the crane department? What kind of skills are you looking for?

[User]
We’re looking at people that are capable of not getting nervous when they’re picking up an orbiter. They can talk and [demonstrate their] skill when they’re talking on the radios, especially since the crane operator has to be the electrician, and they have to be mechanical too. So they have to have their own skill too. They have to be skilled in their own craft, separate from being a crane operator. The people that work with us, they’re really nice people.

When you’re picking up flight hardware or an SRB and you have a crane problem, and the crane goes out, you have to go out there and fix that very quickly. You need people in this group that can make decisions. Not everyone can make decisions. They freeze up. They become afraid of the consequences. You need people in the group to go out there and be able to come up and make [decisions]. You do take calculations into consideration. There’s risk factors, but you have to make a decision and move forward. That’s a big difference. A lot of responsibility.

[Assistant] And the responsibility of such expensive hardware. There’s no time for oops.

[User]
At least we haven’t dropped anything.

No, we have a good record.

Yes, maybe damaged a couple of things. But not dropped anything.

If you drop an SRB, that’s it. Everything’s over. So you cannot do that.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the use of the crane with the mate/demate device. Can you share what those steps are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Inside little things.

[Assistant] You have to come up with ways to make something work, because you don’t have that opportunity to redesign. Is that correct?

[User]
You have to live with [things]. It’s very difficult to redesign a lot of things, because there are a lot of drawings you have to revise, and you have to go through a huge process to revise things. There’s a lot of paperwork.

At the beginning we were launching a lot, not compared to now at the end. We did three at least a year. We were doing about five or six a year. So it was a constant movement. Then we are involved through the whole process of doing the orbiter, from the SRB, ET, and then the Shuttle. As soon as it goes out of here the only thing you have to take care is the payload—if it goes that way. If not, it was already installed in the OPF so we didn’t have to worry. It was constantly pop, one after the other one.

So you don’t have time to do improvements all the time, because of the schedule. Everything was so schedule-driven. We’re not talking eight-hour days. We’re talking around the clock 24-hour shifts.

For mating.

It was unreal.

[Assistant] Are there other tools or ingenious resource fixes that you can think of that you guys put together during the timeframe other than the [telescoping tube]?

[User] On the MDD? Or on other stuff here?

[Assistant] MDD first, and then you can do some other stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
You have to live with [things]. It’s very difficult to redesign a lot of things, because there are a lot of drawings you have to revise, and you have to go through a huge process to revise things. There’s a lot of paperwork.

At the beginning we were launching a lot, not compared to now at the end. We did three at least a year. We were doing about five or six a year. So it was a constant movement. Then we are involved through the whole process of doing the orbiter, from the SRB, ET, and then the Shuttle. As soon as it goes out of here the only thing you have to take care is the payload—if it goes that way. If not, it was already installed in the OPF so we didn’t have to worry. It was constantly pop, one after the other one.

So you don’t have time to do improvements all the time, because of the schedule. Everything was so schedule-driven. We’re not talking eight-hour days. We’re talking around the clock 24-hour shifts.

For mating.

It was unreal.

[Assistant] Are there other tools or ingenious resource fixes that you can think of that you guys put together during the timeframe other than the [telescoping tube]?

[User] On the MDD? Or on other stuff here?

[Assistant] MDD first, and then you can do some other stuff.

[User]
The MDD is pretty much maintenance stuff that we had to [be] ingenious on, because of the telescoping tube principally and the bad weather. The other things they have been pretty good, other crane stuff.

I brought my design skills where I could do a sketch real quick and get a shop to make a part that we need to go out there and implement. That was the nice part. I saw instant results. I liked that.

That’s why we’re going to keep it. We told him, “Hey, you’re coming back—you’re not staying there.”

[Assistant] So what other types of fixes did you do? Can you think of some more that you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
All winching systems or hoisting systems have to have at least two brakes on them. The reason why we added them is to stop the hoist when you stop operating. Then you had an emergency brake which would lock everything up. The emergency brake is designed if you lost power the spring-load in the caliper would clamp down on the disk. The way it is is you hydraulically pull back the brakes, so if you have a loss of power, the valves would release, and the spring-loaded mechanical systems would clamp on the brake. Very fail safe. All hoisting systems have to have a minimum of two independent brakes for safety.

That emergency brake that he’s talking about, it’s activated mainly by the overspeed. We have an overspeed in the system that is calibrated to a certain rpm [rates per minute]. If it goes over that rpm, then it shut off the power, and drop[ped] out the solenoid on that caliper. Then it’s set up in the wheel.

[Assistant] Did you ever have to use it?

[User] No, but it got activated by nuisance trips. So we decided to go ahead and change the wedge system to the disk brake system, because it was easier to dislodge them completely. It was a good design; it was nice.

[Assistant] Sounds like it was very valuable—not just for the hardware but of course for people. Or vice versa, not just for people but for the hardware.

[User]
Yes, we have to create it for the overall system. We have to create a special tool. It was like a fork to get in there. Sometimes you even had to bump the hoist to be able to dislodge the wedges in there, it was so hard. It was steel against steel, so it was really hard.

Yes, it was a pretty lame design.

[Assistant] Worked for 1960, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but it got activated by nuisance trips. So we decided to go ahead and change the wedge system to the disk brake system, because it was easier to dislodge them completely. It was a good design; it was nice.

[Assistant] Sounds like it was very valuable—not just for the hardware but of course for people. Or vice versa, not just for people but for the hardware.

[User]
Yes, we have to create it for the overall system. We have to create a special tool. It was like a fork to get in there. Sometimes you even had to bump the hoist to be able to dislodge the wedges in there, it was so hard. It was steel against steel, so it was really hard.

Yes, it was a pretty lame design.

[Assistant] Worked for 1960, huh?

[User] Yes. It worked fine until we finally came up with that solution. It was a good solution.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you integrated those brake systems in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, we have to create it for the overall system. We have to create a special tool. It was like a fork to get in there. Sometimes you even had to bump the hoist to be able to dislodge the wedges in there, it was so hard. It was steel against steel, so it was really hard.

Yes, it was a pretty lame design.

[Assistant] Worked for 1960, huh?

[User] Yes. It worked fine until we finally came up with that solution. It was a good solution.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you integrated those brake systems in?

[User]
It was in the mid ’90s, I think. Yes, ’95 let’s say.

They did the modification in Dryden but they didn’t do the other brake modification over there, because over there they didn’t have the problem with the rust. So that was taken care of. We only did half of it.

[Assistant] If a modification was made at Dryden, was it also made here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It worked fine until we finally came up with that solution. It was a good solution.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you integrated those brake systems in?

[User]
It was in the mid ’90s, I think. Yes, ’95 let’s say.

They did the modification in Dryden but they didn’t do the other brake modification over there, because over there they didn’t have the problem with the rust. So that was taken care of. We only did half of it.

[Assistant] If a modification was made at Dryden, was it also made here?

[User]
I think it’s more like the other way around. Here first and then [there].

Yes because we do the maintaining. But it was operated by the ops people [at Dryden]. Over here we do the maintenance [and] operate the system too.

[Assistant] So you knew the system inside and out because you had used it. Tell me about the weather and the corrosion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was in the mid ’90s, I think. Yes, ’95 let’s say.

They did the modification in Dryden but they didn’t do the other brake modification over there, because over there they didn’t have the problem with the rust. So that was taken care of. We only did half of it.

[Assistant] If a modification was made at Dryden, was it also made here?

[User]
I think it’s more like the other way around. Here first and then [there].

Yes because we do the maintaining. But it was operated by the ops people [at Dryden]. Over here we do the maintenance [and] operate the system too.

[Assistant] So you knew the system inside and out because you had used it. Tell me about the weather and the corrosion.

[User]
He can tell you a lot. He worked a lot of it.

I’ll tell you what. In California you have the desert and no salt. The MDD out there is pristine. The one out here, it is a constant battle with rust and corrosion. Not only does it affect the structure and the steels, but it affects the electronics, the breakers, the electrical system, even our wiring gets corroded. It gets brittle. Constant battle. Just very difficult. That’s one of our most difficult facilities to maintain, because it’s a frame structure out in the weather. We have hurricanes and things like that.

Water, rain.

Water constantly gets penetrated. We have birds, thousands of birds.

Alligators.

Buzzards.

[Assistant] They think it’s a roost?