[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Just for a week, we were given a map and told to go to the community on the map and see if someone would put us up for a week practice or Spanish. Learn more about Puerto Rico and then came back to the camps. So the family program didn't begin until 1969. Wasn't my idea. But after I finished my Peace Corps service, I actually went with. Noise in the kitchen, sorry.

I was asked to implement the first family live-in training, 12 week training program. We actually gave the trainees three days of Spanish and a map of the section around town of Ponce, Puerto Rico, in the small communities, and told them to go out and find if they could find a family that would be willing to put up with them for three months. They all did it. It was amazing. After the first cycle, we realized if we wanted families to be trainers, maybe we should select the families and give them some orientation and some support instead of just randomly sending people out looking for places to live. So, again, it was a learning process that the agency was going through.

[Assistant] But so go back to yours. Do you think your training prepared you for your service at that time?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Why not?

[User] It was too focused on the physical aspects of it. You didn't need to rappel off dams and do drown proofing and then take five day hikes through the rainforest to survive. Here it was preparing us for being special forces in the military, and we needed the language, certainly, and the cross culture, but we didn't really integrate much with the local Puerto Rican culture to make it very. You still book learning versus what eventually evolved into more of an experiential learning. So it just took some time for the agency to evolve.

[Assistant] And what kind of preparation did you have for community development? Did you find out what community development meant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Why not?

[User] It was too focused on the physical aspects of it. You didn't need to rappel off dams and do drown proofing and then take five day hikes through the rainforest to survive. Here it was preparing us for being special forces in the military, and we needed the language, certainly, and the cross culture, but we didn't really integrate much with the local Puerto Rican culture to make it very. You still book learning versus what eventually evolved into more of an experiential learning. So it just took some time for the agency to evolve.

[Assistant] And what kind of preparation did you have for community development? Did you find out what community development meant?

[User] Yes, but not in training. I think, again, it was, you know, learned how to kill a chicken and dress a pig and talked about community organizing. But it was really in-service training where we learned more about it during our service. And I was assigned to an Office of Community Development, which was a new agency that was created after the revolution had just taken place in 1965. The Peace Corps stayed in the country from throughout the revolution. And after there was this agency set up to help in self-help and throughout the country in rural areas. And it was mostly AID funded, Agency for International Development. And I worked in a region with seven other extension agents that were we were all expected to be doing the same type of work. The other six were Dominicans. And I was the one American in my area. And my group of 18 were dispersed with other Dominican.

[Assistant] So each one country, one volunteer with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was too focused on the physical aspects of it. You didn't need to rappel off dams and do drown proofing and then take five day hikes through the rainforest to survive. Here it was preparing us for being special forces in the military, and we needed the language, certainly, and the cross culture, but we didn't really integrate much with the local Puerto Rican culture to make it very. You still book learning versus what eventually evolved into more of an experiential learning. So it just took some time for the agency to evolve.

[Assistant] And what kind of preparation did you have for community development? Did you find out what community development meant?

[User] Yes, but not in training. I think, again, it was, you know, learned how to kill a chicken and dress a pig and talked about community organizing. But it was really in-service training where we learned more about it during our service. And I was assigned to an Office of Community Development, which was a new agency that was created after the revolution had just taken place in 1965. The Peace Corps stayed in the country from throughout the revolution. And after there was this agency set up to help in self-help and throughout the country in rural areas. And it was mostly AID funded, Agency for International Development. And I worked in a region with seven other extension agents that were we were all expected to be doing the same type of work. The other six were Dominicans. And I was the one American in my area. And my group of 18 were dispersed with other Dominican.

[Assistant] So each one country, one volunteer with?

[User] Per region.

[Assistant] And what is it that you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but not in training. I think, again, it was, you know, learned how to kill a chicken and dress a pig and talked about community organizing. But it was really in-service training where we learned more about it during our service. And I was assigned to an Office of Community Development, which was a new agency that was created after the revolution had just taken place in 1965. The Peace Corps stayed in the country from throughout the revolution. And after there was this agency set up to help in self-help and throughout the country in rural areas. And it was mostly AID funded, Agency for International Development. And I worked in a region with seven other extension agents that were we were all expected to be doing the same type of work. The other six were Dominicans. And I was the one American in my area. And my group of 18 were dispersed with other Dominican.

[Assistant] So each one country, one volunteer with?

[User] Per region.

[Assistant] And what is it that you did?

[User] Well, when I first arrived in the community where I was dropped off, my project manager looked at me and says, go develop. I'll see you in six months. And so I tried to figure out basically from some of our training is just talk to people. I spent the first three months visiting as many families as I could through an eight kilometer road were about 500 families were dispersed throughout the area. And to find out who they were, what their interests were, what they thought of the community, what they might want to do as a community. And in that particular community where I started, they were desperate for a school because the youth population was exploding and they were in one small room with all grades and four teachers. So we eventually were able to actually help that community build a school. And with that, as my base, by the end of my first year, I ended up working in 10 different communities within the province I was in.

[Assistant] What province where you in what's called?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Per region.

[Assistant] And what is it that you did?

[User] Well, when I first arrived in the community where I was dropped off, my project manager looked at me and says, go develop. I'll see you in six months. And so I tried to figure out basically from some of our training is just talk to people. I spent the first three months visiting as many families as I could through an eight kilometer road were about 500 families were dispersed throughout the area. And to find out who they were, what their interests were, what they thought of the community, what they might want to do as a community. And in that particular community where I started, they were desperate for a school because the youth population was exploding and they were in one small room with all grades and four teachers. So we eventually were able to actually help that community build a school. And with that, as my base, by the end of my first year, I ended up working in 10 different communities within the province I was in.

[Assistant] What province where you in what's called?

[User] Santiago Rodriguez or Sabaneta. It changed its name at different points in its history. When I was there it was called Santiago Rodriguez. It was in the far northwest part of the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] And what was it called later? What was the second name of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when I first arrived in the community where I was dropped off, my project manager looked at me and says, go develop. I'll see you in six months. And so I tried to figure out basically from some of our training is just talk to people. I spent the first three months visiting as many families as I could through an eight kilometer road were about 500 families were dispersed throughout the area. And to find out who they were, what their interests were, what they thought of the community, what they might want to do as a community. And in that particular community where I started, they were desperate for a school because the youth population was exploding and they were in one small room with all grades and four teachers. So we eventually were able to actually help that community build a school. And with that, as my base, by the end of my first year, I ended up working in 10 different communities within the province I was in.

[Assistant] What province where you in what's called?

[User] Santiago Rodriguez or Sabaneta. It changed its name at different points in its history. When I was there it was called Santiago Rodriguez. It was in the far northwest part of the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] And what was it called later? What was the second name of it?

[User] Sabaneta.

[Assistant] So you ended up working in 10 different communities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Santiago Rodriguez or Sabaneta. It changed its name at different points in its history. When I was there it was called Santiago Rodriguez. It was in the far northwest part of the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] And what was it called later? What was the second name of it?

[User] Sabaneta.

[Assistant] So you ended up working in 10 different communities?

[User] The work varied depending on what the community was interested in. One wanted schools. One wanted a health clinic, and a number of them wanted help with agricultural production of peanuts. Started a youth club. Some credit union organization, farm to market roads. The agency that I worked with supplied engineers and heavy equipment communities had to do the manual labor, put up about 50 percent of the cost of whatever was being done. And so it was mostly labor. But sometimes they would make the cement blocks from the buildings and raise some of their own money to maybe by roofing material or things like that. So very much of a community organizing effort, printing sort of advisory committees, or because they really didn't have any community councils per se. So these committees were more of a steering committee to help move the communities along.

[Assistant] And what was your role vis a vis the Dominicans who were community developers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sabaneta.

[Assistant] So you ended up working in 10 different communities?

[User] The work varied depending on what the community was interested in. One wanted schools. One wanted a health clinic, and a number of them wanted help with agricultural production of peanuts. Started a youth club. Some credit union organization, farm to market roads. The agency that I worked with supplied engineers and heavy equipment communities had to do the manual labor, put up about 50 percent of the cost of whatever was being done. And so it was mostly labor. But sometimes they would make the cement blocks from the buildings and raise some of their own money to maybe by roofing material or things like that. So very much of a community organizing effort, printing sort of advisory committees, or because they really didn't have any community councils per se. So these committees were more of a steering committee to help move the communities along.

[Assistant] And what was your role vis a vis the Dominicans who were community developers?

[User] We did the same thing in different areas.

[Assistant] So you were just part of the team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The work varied depending on what the community was interested in. One wanted schools. One wanted a health clinic, and a number of them wanted help with agricultural production of peanuts. Started a youth club. Some credit union organization, farm to market roads. The agency that I worked with supplied engineers and heavy equipment communities had to do the manual labor, put up about 50 percent of the cost of whatever was being done. And so it was mostly labor. But sometimes they would make the cement blocks from the buildings and raise some of their own money to maybe by roofing material or things like that. So very much of a community organizing effort, printing sort of advisory committees, or because they really didn't have any community councils per se. So these committees were more of a steering committee to help move the communities along.

[Assistant] And what was your role vis a vis the Dominicans who were community developers?

[User] We did the same thing in different areas.

[Assistant] So you were just part of the team?

[User] Which is part of the team. And we would meet monthly as a group to talk about what we were all doing and how we're doing it. So we shared our experiences.

[Assistant] But each one was in a different place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did the same thing in different areas.

[Assistant] So you were just part of the team?

[User] Which is part of the team. And we would meet monthly as a group to talk about what we were all doing and how we're doing it. So we shared our experiences.

[Assistant] But each one was in a different place.

[User] Each one was in a different you know, we didn't work together in the same place.

[Assistant] So you were in this, what town were you in again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is part of the team. And we would meet monthly as a group to talk about what we were all doing and how we're doing it. So we shared our experiences.

[Assistant] But each one was in a different place.

[User] Each one was in a different you know, we didn't work together in the same place.

[Assistant] So you were in this, what town were you in again?

[User] A small town or a small community, it was called El Guanal.

[Assistant] Oh, El Guanal. And talk a little bit about what this town was like and what your living situation was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Each one was in a different you know, we didn't work together in the same place.

[Assistant] So you were in this, what town were you in again?

[User] A small town or a small community, it was called El Guanal.

[Assistant] Oh, El Guanal. And talk a little bit about what this town was like and what your living situation was.

[User] You'd call it a community, not a town, because it was literally just dispersed houses along the eight kilometer road throughout the hill. Most of the houses, the house I lived in was about 15 foot by 15 foot dirt for four and a thatched roof. We had an outhouse and then the back there was a lean-to where they had a clay stove for cooking. The owner of the house wanted five dollars a month rent, and he moved out of the house to live in a lean-to at the back of the house to get the five dollars.

[Assistant] Which was a considerable amount of money, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A small town or a small community, it was called El Guanal.

[Assistant] Oh, El Guanal. And talk a little bit about what this town was like and what your living situation was.

[User] You'd call it a community, not a town, because it was literally just dispersed houses along the eight kilometer road throughout the hill. Most of the houses, the house I lived in was about 15 foot by 15 foot dirt for four and a thatched roof. We had an outhouse and then the back there was a lean-to where they had a clay stove for cooking. The owner of the house wanted five dollars a month rent, and he moved out of the house to live in a lean-to at the back of the house to get the five dollars.

[Assistant] Which was a considerable amount of money, I guess.

[User] Probably. Well, our salary was about a hundred dollars a month. So five percent of my salary went for the house and another 30 dollars for food. Had a family prepare my breakfast, lunch and dinner. That was thirty dollars. I paid another five dollars for laundry, which meant getting my clothes on a rock at the river and putting it in boiling water. So my elastic bands and my underwear sort of disappeared.

[Assistant] But it was clean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd call it a community, not a town, because it was literally just dispersed houses along the eight kilometer road throughout the hill. Most of the houses, the house I lived in was about 15 foot by 15 foot dirt for four and a thatched roof. We had an outhouse and then the back there was a lean-to where they had a clay stove for cooking. The owner of the house wanted five dollars a month rent, and he moved out of the house to live in a lean-to at the back of the house to get the five dollars.

[Assistant] Which was a considerable amount of money, I guess.

[User] Probably. Well, our salary was about a hundred dollars a month. So five percent of my salary went for the house and another 30 dollars for food. Had a family prepare my breakfast, lunch and dinner. That was thirty dollars. I paid another five dollars for laundry, which meant getting my clothes on a rock at the river and putting it in boiling water. So my elastic bands and my underwear sort of disappeared.

[Assistant] But it was clean.

[User] It was clean and always prompt, folded, neat. I think those were my basic expenses.

[Assistant] Did you who did you communicate with in the who were your friends? Did you did you have friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. Well, our salary was about a hundred dollars a month. So five percent of my salary went for the house and another 30 dollars for food. Had a family prepare my breakfast, lunch and dinner. That was thirty dollars. I paid another five dollars for laundry, which meant getting my clothes on a rock at the river and putting it in boiling water. So my elastic bands and my underwear sort of disappeared.

[Assistant] But it was clean.

[User] It was clean and always prompt, folded, neat. I think those were my basic expenses.

[Assistant] Did you who did you communicate with in the who were your friends? Did you did you have friends?

[User] Not particularly in the community. I mean, I met the families and I would work in the field sometimes just to get to know the men. And there weren't too many older children, mostly under 15, who were still in the community. And the. So certainly the family I ate with became close and there was a landowner in the area who was raising cattle. I did become very good friends with his son, who was a university student and which was very rare in that area. And we maintained a relationship over the last 50 years. He just died last year.

[Assistant] Well, you said there weren’t many young people left over 15. Where had they gone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was clean and always prompt, folded, neat. I think those were my basic expenses.

[Assistant] Did you who did you communicate with in the who were your friends? Did you did you have friends?

[User] Not particularly in the community. I mean, I met the families and I would work in the field sometimes just to get to know the men. And there weren't too many older children, mostly under 15, who were still in the community. And the. So certainly the family I ate with became close and there was a landowner in the area who was raising cattle. I did become very good friends with his son, who was a university student and which was very rare in that area. And we maintained a relationship over the last 50 years. He just died last year.

[Assistant] Well, you said there weren’t many young people left over 15. Where had they gone?

[User] Good question. I didn't think of asking it at the time, but they weren't there. And in that community anyway.

[Assistant] But it wasn't military.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not particularly in the community. I mean, I met the families and I would work in the field sometimes just to get to know the men. And there weren't too many older children, mostly under 15, who were still in the community. And the. So certainly the family I ate with became close and there was a landowner in the area who was raising cattle. I did become very good friends with his son, who was a university student and which was very rare in that area. And we maintained a relationship over the last 50 years. He just died last year.

[Assistant] Well, you said there weren’t many young people left over 15. Where had they gone?

[User] Good question. I didn't think of asking it at the time, but they weren't there. And in that community anyway.

[Assistant] But it wasn't military.

[User] No, no. At the end of my second year, close to the end of my second year, I actually moved into the small provincial capital, which was about 3000 people there. The local high school youth approached me and asked me if I would sponsor them for a youth club. So there was an empty house right on the town square that was given free rent in the back room to sort of guard the place. And the rest of the house was used for the club. And these were young people who were looking for leadership. Developing their own leadership after a 30 year dictatorship. In the first year anniversary of the club in November, the young president of the club, who was a senior in the high school, made a statement that he says, the reason we're together learning is because we don't want to be like our parents. Which to me was shocking to hear him say it publicly, but it was because they were so submissive to the dictatorship. Did you think they saw themselves as a new generation that was going to change things?

[Assistant] How did that how did you experience that in the first town you were in in community development? Did people seem passive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a politician. He was trying to do play a leadership role, which he did. And he. I think that lesson always followed me when I understood things like Iran and Iraq, Afghanistan. We were so dismissive of people who had been in the Republican Guard, for example, under Hussein, and that understanding that if you weren't a member of the party, that you couldn't be a principal of the school, you couldn't be a doctor or head of a clinic. There wasn't an option, you had to be a member. It doesn't mean you had the same particular values of the dictators. But you had to buy in, if you're in a communist country, if you're not a member of a party, you're not given any leadership positions. It doesn't mean you're particularly again. Adhere to all the values of those political systems. It's just a given. And I think that is something that's hard to understand coming from a country like our own. To understand those pressures, other people have to live under that. We don't.

[Assistant] Did you see the evolution of people's attitudes that during the time you were there?

[User] Certainly among the youth. I mean, they did. You saw at the universities that the youths demanding more transparency and openness and at least in the Dominican Republic over the last 50 years, it's gone from left to right to left to right. I mean, they've managed to have relatively nonviolent transitions of government across parties. So something was able to be stabilized and evolve.

[Assistant] And how did Peace Corps manage under both? I guess it was Peace Corps there under the dictator.

[User] The dictator, no. So only came in afterwards, came in after the dictator was assassinated in ‘61, I believe.

[Assistant] Who was the dictator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The dictator, no. So only came in afterwards, came in after the dictator was assassinated in ‘61, I believe.

[Assistant] Who was the dictator?

[User] Trujillo.

[Assistant] Trujillo. Yes.

[User] And during the revolution, the general the opposition came on national radio and said, leave Peace Corps alone. They're neutral. We were the only international organization alone allowed to cross into rebel territory. We had a contingent of nurses that were administering to the wounded on both sides. So we maintained a level of neutrality that was respected by both sides. So we were neutral. They saw us as a people to people as we see it ourselves versus a representative of our government.

[Assistant] Not accused of being CIA spies or anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Trujillo.

[Assistant] Trujillo. Yes.

[User] And during the revolution, the general the opposition came on national radio and said, leave Peace Corps alone. They're neutral. We were the only international organization alone allowed to cross into rebel territory. We had a contingent of nurses that were administering to the wounded on both sides. So we maintained a level of neutrality that was respected by both sides. So we were neutral. They saw us as a people to people as we see it ourselves versus a representative of our government.

[Assistant] Not accused of being CIA spies or anything like that?

[User] We were all accused of that. You're different. I mean, I would joke with my youth kids who were sort of jokingly say, oh, you're not, you're CIA. I said, well, what is it here that the CIA would care to be interested in? You know, do you really have a military installation here? Anyway, I almost got them into trouble, though, because at one point we did an overnight up into the mountains and on the way down in back into town, I came up against the military who had been told that there were youth up in the mountains. And right after, you know, this was only a year or two after the revolution. So the military came up to see who these young men were up in the mountains. And luckily, I was coming down in front of them all. So when they saw me, the two of them had military guy in charge, just came up to me and said, next time you go up, make sure you inform me of growing up, because this could have turned into a disaster. It didn't cross my mind to inform you that we were just going like a Boy Scout camp out. But that definitely would give you a sense of the underlying sensitivity that things were still not normal, whatever that is.

[Assistant] Peace Corps didn't actually train you or make you aware of the sensitivities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not those type. So we certainly were told not to engage in politics, which we didn't do. At one point, the current governor invited me to some of his meetings with some of those small communities around the capitol. And I would go until I realized that he was sort of using me as an example of someone supporting him. Hmm. I wasn't supporting him, per se, but I'm trying to learn about what he was saying, the communities, the issues the communities were interested in. But I realized that my presence looked like I was part of his retinue. And so I had to tactfully decline to continue going to the meetings with him.

[Assistant] Why did you move from the town you were in doing the community development to working with the youth group?

[User] I was still doing the development. Only the town was now more central to the ten communities I was working in.

[Assistant] So you didn't switch jobs. So it was just activity?

[User] You know, this was just an added activity. And with the central location that it made it easier to get around to the other communities.

[Assistant] So what did you do during the vacation time? I assume you had vacation. Did you travel around the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was still doing the development. Only the town was now more central to the ten communities I was working in.

[Assistant] So you didn't switch jobs. So it was just activity?

[User] You know, this was just an added activity. And with the central location that it made it easier to get around to the other communities.

[Assistant] So what did you do during the vacation time? I assume you had vacation. Did you travel around the country?

[User] I, um, I took one vacation that I can remember where we went back to Puerto Rico. And I just spent a couple of days in San Juan enjoying the, uh, enjoying Puerto Rico again. Um, I took a vacation between my second and third year because I stayed for a third year. So that was the only time I really took a vacation.

[Assistant] Why did you stay for a third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Puerto Rico. And then we began to as things started moving in-country, I did set up one training in Venezuela and began doing training for Peace Corps in Peru.

[Assistant] So by that time, you were a Peace Corps staff, you moved from?

[User] I was a contractor because the training center was running the contract for Peace Corps. So I wasn't a Peace Corps employee directly.

[Assistant] So I know when we talked, you mentioned that there was a bombing of the Peace Corps office.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] When was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a contractor because the training center was running the contract for Peace Corps. So I wasn't a Peace Corps employee directly.

[Assistant] So I know when we talked, you mentioned that there was a bombing of the Peace Corps office.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] When was that?

[User] In the capital during my third year. I was on my way to the office to do some work that evening in the Peace Corps, Dr. drove by. He says we have three people looking for a fourth for bridge game. Would you be interested in joining us? And I said, well, I had some work to do, but I can always do it in the morning. So sure. Glad to join you and play some bridge. As we were playing, we heard a bomb go off, which was not exceptional in the capital. And this was in an area where the U.S. embassy and the AID building was. So we just said there's a bomb. OK. However, the doctor got a call saying, come to the Peace Corps office, it’s just been bombed. And when we got there, we found, ironically, that my desk, the one I usually used in the office because I had an office in the Peace Corps office as well as in the ministry, was the one that had set a bomb under. And when it exploded, it blew the desk up in the air and turn it upside down and landed. And it's on its top. A good government desk, strong. And it turned out that the reason the office was attacked that evening was because there was a newspaper reporter for The Washington Post by the name of Drew Pearson, who had written an article claiming that the Peace Corps agency director had been a head of a not-for-profit that was a CIA front. And so the group of young men came to the office looking for an American killed to kill that evening.

[Assistant] And it could have been you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're all not necessarily trained that way.

[Assistant] I was going to ask, why is it that D.C. Peace Corps headquarters doesn't see that?

[User] Well, one, you get incredible turnover in headquarters. You have I think it's three political appointees who direct most of the officers in the agency. So they come in every time there's a change in administration, and it doesn't matter what party it is. And when they implement their ideas, instead of trying to figure out what's actually working and trusting what's working and supporting that instead of general reminds me of the volunteer who thinks they're the one that's going to make the change instead of being simply a facilitator to help someone make the change they want to make. So it's the difference between the volunteer doing it to prove themselves versus facilitating someone else's vision. Staff people are the same way. I mean, they want to come in to show how good they are instead of accepting that maybe some of their predecessors actually knew what they were doing. And this is probably an organizational issue anywhere, but I think it's incredible. It's even more so when you have the turnover of staff. Where you don't have at least five to 10 years of experience.

[Assistant] You have the turnover of volunteers, you have the turnover of staff. So decentralized.

[User] The only consistency is the host country staff. And unfortunately, they're so overburdened, any new idea is put on them to implement. So even those that can think or want to think systemically, they're so overburdened with trying to get everything else that that's put on their plate, that's just horrible. So, I mean, certainly don't blame them. But it's this whole. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I come from a development perspective. I mean, that's my education training, I went from being a physicist to being a Ph.D. in sociology and in culture change.

[Assistant] So you did become an anthropologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, one, you get incredible turnover in headquarters. You have I think it's three political appointees who direct most of the officers in the agency. So they come in every time there's a change in administration, and it doesn't matter what party it is. And when they implement their ideas, instead of trying to figure out what's actually working and trusting what's working and supporting that instead of general reminds me of the volunteer who thinks they're the one that's going to make the change instead of being simply a facilitator to help someone make the change they want to make. So it's the difference between the volunteer doing it to prove themselves versus facilitating someone else's vision. Staff people are the same way. I mean, they want to come in to show how good they are instead of accepting that maybe some of their predecessors actually knew what they were doing. And this is probably an organizational issue anywhere, but I think it's incredible. It's even more so when you have the turnover of staff. Where you don't have at least five to 10 years of experience.

[Assistant] You have the turnover of volunteers, you have the turnover of staff. So decentralized.

[User] The only consistency is the host country staff. And unfortunately, they're so overburdened, any new idea is put on them to implement. So even those that can think or want to think systemically, they're so overburdened with trying to get everything else that that's put on their plate, that's just horrible. So, I mean, certainly don't blame them. But it's this whole. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I come from a development perspective. I mean, that's my education training, I went from being a physicist to being a Ph.D. in sociology and in culture change.

[Assistant] So you did become an anthropologist?

[User] I did sort of.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's pretty close. Sociology is much the same. Yeah. Gets pretty close.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, to some degree. There are certainly a lot of volunteers throughout both aid and embassies. Oh, I just saw RPCV appointed an ambassador to Libya, is it? I can't remember which in today's or yesterday's paper, an RPCV is an ambassador. I just hope they had more experience than their volunteer experience, because I don't think it's enough. The cultures like the State Department and AID are too strong to put up with the total renegade within them. If anything, you hopefully have the same tact you had as volunteer so you can work within those cultures and influence them indirectly, if you will. But you're not going to break into those cultures.

[Assistant] But do you think in the field. Peace Corps volunteers are now involved in U.S. aid projects. Are they now involved in USAID projects?

[User] Not necessarily through AID, but through the contractors.

[Assistant] Through their contractors, you know, but then to after their volunteers, but as volunteers. I mean, I know I've interviewed some people and they say, well, they were able to get some money through an AID grant for a project, for example.

[User] Yeah, it varies.

[Assistant] That's not a regular thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not necessarily through AID, but through the contractors.

[Assistant] Through their contractors, you know, but then to after their volunteers, but as volunteers. I mean, I know I've interviewed some people and they say, well, they were able to get some money through an AID grant for a project, for example.

[User] Yeah, it varies.

[Assistant] That's not a regular thing?

[User] No, it isn't in all the countries. There used to be a small project assistance grant from AID to Peace Corps, and that was ended a while ago. I don't know when or why.

[Assistant] Maybe it was under that program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thanks, Rebecca. We need to save this information.

[Assistant] Well, we know you have so much after your duration, so we're going to try to help you find some of the highlights that you would like to have on the record. We know that you've only been home about five months, so how are you feeling physically?

[User] Five months now. I'm, I'd say, 80 or 90 percent back. The delay in coming 100 percent back is not just from space flight, it's the busy life that comes with completing a mission like this. In fact, the mission just really ended, I'd say, in the last few weeks. It doesn't end when you land. There's still a lot of mission to go, both scientifically, public affairs-wise, transferring the engineering information and science information to the engineering and science development teams. So it's a very busy job for at least four months or so after landing.

[Assistant] How about emotionally? Are you being able to be detached from being on board Mir for that long?

[User] Well, just as the mission doesn't end when you land, the mission doesn't start when you launch. We've been gone almost two years, the people that do these missions, and there's a lot of relationships to reestablish, your house, various equipment. I have an airplane that needs a lot of work now, and it's two years of chores all saved up and trying to, one by one, get through those. You can't go see all your friends and family all at once, so there's a certain emptiness there, that you need to start reestablishing relationships that have been years delayed.

[Assistant] I guess time may have felt like it stopped on the Mir, but it certainly didn't here on Earth, did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five months now. I'm, I'd say, 80 or 90 percent back. The delay in coming 100 percent back is not just from space flight, it's the busy life that comes with completing a mission like this. In fact, the mission just really ended, I'd say, in the last few weeks. It doesn't end when you land. There's still a lot of mission to go, both scientifically, public affairs-wise, transferring the engineering information and science information to the engineering and science development teams. So it's a very busy job for at least four months or so after landing.

[Assistant] How about emotionally? Are you being able to be detached from being on board Mir for that long?

[User] Well, just as the mission doesn't end when you land, the mission doesn't start when you launch. We've been gone almost two years, the people that do these missions, and there's a lot of relationships to reestablish, your house, various equipment. I have an airplane that needs a lot of work now, and it's two years of chores all saved up and trying to, one by one, get through those. You can't go see all your friends and family all at once, so there's a certain emptiness there, that you need to start reestablishing relationships that have been years delayed.

[Assistant] I guess time may have felt like it stopped on the Mir, but it certainly didn't here on Earth, did it?

[User] That's right. In fact, that's interesting. The housing developments are much bigger. There's new stores and restaurants, and it's kind of exciting stepping out of the time machine back to Earth and seeing how fast our society progresses, and it really strikes you when you've been gone for a few years.

[Assistant] Although, as you mentioned, you started a couple of years ago preparing for the flight, right before you launched, the time was filled with discussion and concern about the risk involved with placing another American on Mir. Saying yes to go for that mission reflected a tremendous amount of trust that you had in NASA. Could you tell us about some of the factors that helped you make that decision professionally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Can you give us some idea of what that was like and what you were feeling when you were there?

[User] When I was nine years old, I saw Ed White do the first American space walk, and it was that moment that I decided I'd like to be an astronaut and, in fact, I'd like to do a space walk as an astronaut. It was thirty-one years later that I did it. It was worth every minute of the wait. But I never dreamed it would be from a Russian spacecraft, in a Russian spacesuit, speaking Russian with a Russian who had been out sixteen times, the most experienced space walker in the world, and that's what Anatoly [Y.] Solovyev is. So it was a real first-hand lesson from the number-one guy in the field, and that was a privilege. I helped Pavel and Anatoly do five space walks from an in-cabin point of view, so I felt very ready to go.\n\n Finally I got to do one. It was a real highlight. Clipped on and opening the hatch and pushing yourself free is the highlight of a person's life. You look back at this space complex and the Earth, and it looks like two spacecraft flying in formation with each other, and you get a real perspective globally of what's going on here and what we've accomplished as a society. It's just awesome to see this panoramic view, much wider than you can see through any window, and in essentially a personal spacecraft, but pretty quickly you get your attention refocused to the job at hand and the details involved with that.

[Assistant] What were some of your duties while you were there, outside?

[User] The primary goal of our space walk was to take an instrument called a spectroreflectometer, which is a hand-held, fairly large instrument which measures surface properties of the Mir in various locations, the goal being to understand how the surface coatings, which are very critical to the thermal properties of the Mir, have withstood the long-duration exposure to the space environment so that we can develop better coatings for the International Space Station.

[Assistant] That wasn't your only EVA, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was nine years old, I saw Ed White do the first American space walk, and it was that moment that I decided I'd like to be an astronaut and, in fact, I'd like to do a space walk as an astronaut. It was thirty-one years later that I did it. It was worth every minute of the wait. But I never dreamed it would be from a Russian spacecraft, in a Russian spacesuit, speaking Russian with a Russian who had been out sixteen times, the most experienced space walker in the world, and that's what Anatoly [Y.] Solovyev is. So it was a real first-hand lesson from the number-one guy in the field, and that was a privilege. I helped Pavel and Anatoly do five space walks from an in-cabin point of view, so I felt very ready to go.\n\n Finally I got to do one. It was a real highlight. Clipped on and opening the hatch and pushing yourself free is the highlight of a person's life. You look back at this space complex and the Earth, and it looks like two spacecraft flying in formation with each other, and you get a real perspective globally of what's going on here and what we've accomplished as a society. It's just awesome to see this panoramic view, much wider than you can see through any window, and in essentially a personal spacecraft, but pretty quickly you get your attention refocused to the job at hand and the details involved with that.

[Assistant] What were some of your duties while you were there, outside?

[User] The primary goal of our space walk was to take an instrument called a spectroreflectometer, which is a hand-held, fairly large instrument which measures surface properties of the Mir in various locations, the goal being to understand how the surface coatings, which are very critical to the thermal properties of the Mir, have withstood the long-duration exposure to the space environment so that we can develop better coatings for the International Space Station.

[Assistant] That wasn't your only EVA, is that correct?

[User] That was the only one I've done.

[Assistant] And looking forward to doing another one, I'm sure, at some point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The primary goal of our space walk was to take an instrument called a spectroreflectometer, which is a hand-held, fairly large instrument which measures surface properties of the Mir in various locations, the goal being to understand how the surface coatings, which are very critical to the thermal properties of the Mir, have withstood the long-duration exposure to the space environment so that we can develop better coatings for the International Space Station.

[Assistant] That wasn't your only EVA, is that correct?

[User] That was the only one I've done.

[Assistant] And looking forward to doing another one, I'm sure, at some point?

[User] I absolutely would like to do that.

[Assistant] Another unique opportunity you had was kind of un-space related. I understand you exercised your right to vote while you were in space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the only one I've done.

[Assistant] And looking forward to doing another one, I'm sure, at some point?

[User] I absolutely would like to do that.

[Assistant] Another unique opportunity you had was kind of un-space related. I understand you exercised your right to vote while you were in space.

[User] [Yes, I,] Voted from space, which demonstrates that space is becoming a place to live and we have to pay attention to people's lives on the ground, not just voting, but how do they handle banking and their home staying in repair and their lawn cut. There's a whole set of issues when you're drawn that far away, how to handle life, because it has to go on.

[Assistant] It must have been a special thrill. At least you know that your vote was cast and it was counted and every vote amounts to the total.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I absolutely would like to do that.

[Assistant] Another unique opportunity you had was kind of un-space related. I understand you exercised your right to vote while you were in space.

[User] [Yes, I,] Voted from space, which demonstrates that space is becoming a place to live and we have to pay attention to people's lives on the ground, not just voting, but how do they handle banking and their home staying in repair and their lawn cut. There's a whole set of issues when you're drawn that far away, how to handle life, because it has to go on.

[Assistant] It must have been a special thrill. At least you know that your vote was cast and it was counted and every vote amounts to the total.

[User] That's right. [It’s our choices, made by voting, that make this country great.]

[Assistant] One of the other concerns when you were getting ready to launch is that the astronaut going from America would be fixing situations on Mir. You'd be busy doing other things, other than scientific research. Could you share some of the accomplishments that you felt were made during your increment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Yes, I,] Voted from space, which demonstrates that space is becoming a place to live and we have to pay attention to people's lives on the ground, not just voting, but how do they handle banking and their home staying in repair and their lawn cut. There's a whole set of issues when you're drawn that far away, how to handle life, because it has to go on.

[Assistant] It must have been a special thrill. At least you know that your vote was cast and it was counted and every vote amounts to the total.

[User] That's right. [It’s our choices, made by voting, that make this country great.]

[Assistant] One of the other concerns when you were getting ready to launch is that the astronaut going from America would be fixing situations on Mir. You'd be busy doing other things, other than scientific research. Could you share some of the accomplishments that you felt were made during your increment?

[User] Each increment had its own character. You know, we had a fire on Jerry Linenger's, a collision on Mike Foale's, and the whole associated repair work and response work to that. On NASA 6, I would characterize it as long-term very hard work, and by that I mean nine in the morning till midnight, essentially every day of the whole mission. There were a few breaks, afternoon on Christmas, one or two Sundays I took the afternoon off. But long duration very hard work, and this was because the two Russians I was with, Anatoly and Pavel, were determined to bring this spacecraft up to snuff, top working order, and I wasn't going to let them work any harder than me, and that meant taking another job off the job list at ten at night, and this was an infinite job list. There was also a full science program, eight, nine hours a day, I would say, and so between that and the job list, it was an extremely interleaved day of scientific work and systems, both maintenance and handling, work.

[Assistant] Was there one scientific experiment or part of your research that stands out as a great accomplishment from that increment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. So I was sure I was going to be able to pull it off, whatever it took, if the system could digest it, which it did very well. The Russians were very good about coming up with a plan, and it was based on utilizing prior EVA experience I've had, not in space, but I was EVA-qualified in the U.S. suit. I was EVA crew member had we needed to do one, on my prior mission, with Shannon Lucid. and I had a lot of time under water testing ISS, International Space Station, assembly techniques. So I was always interested in that and put a lot of time into it.\n\n So, that combined with the Russians' willingness to utilize that experience to just essentially put the deltas in, the differences, learn their suit, carefully, made it work, and it was very comfortable, no corners cut, by the end of that three weeks, except there was a lot of rough edges cut on my body from wearing out against the suit.

[Assistant] But those days became even longer in your training, due to the [unclear].

[User] There was all weekends and into the evening, nine, ten at night, essentially every day and all day Saturday and Sunday for those four weeks or so, and then back in the States almost as hard, certainly as hard, considering you have to get ready to leave the world for a while. So those were extremely busy days, but I was on a mission.

[Assistant] Any time off in between the time that you left for Russia and the time -

[User] Well, I guess I can tell you now. I snuck a little vacation in. I met my girlfriend in Florida. I couldn't tell anybody where I'd be, or else it would get filled up with calls and time, too, so I diverted to Ft. Lauderdale, where she flew in, and we spent three days before I continued on, and I kind of masked that in the travel to some degree and had three days (about three weeks before the launch) just to walk on the beach.

[Assistant] Was it easy or hard to separate yourself during those three days? Could you let go of what was in the past?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was all weekends and into the evening, nine, ten at night, essentially every day and all day Saturday and Sunday for those four weeks or so, and then back in the States almost as hard, certainly as hard, considering you have to get ready to leave the world for a while. So those were extremely busy days, but I was on a mission.

[Assistant] Any time off in between the time that you left for Russia and the time -

[User] Well, I guess I can tell you now. I snuck a little vacation in. I met my girlfriend in Florida. I couldn't tell anybody where I'd be, or else it would get filled up with calls and time, too, so I diverted to Ft. Lauderdale, where she flew in, and we spent three days before I continued on, and I kind of masked that in the travel to some degree and had three days (about three weeks before the launch) just to walk on the beach.

[Assistant] Was it easy or hard to separate yourself during those three days? Could you let go of what was in the past?

[User] Never did let go. Things were happening too fast on a mission. It was more of a time just not to pile more on for three days and digest what was happening. Of course, it was the topic of my thoughts and conversation. So, no, I never lost it. We know it takes four or five days on a vacation until you really leave work, right? And that never happened.

[Assistant] But at least you had, like you said, no more work piled on top of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never did let go. Things were happening too fast on a mission. It was more of a time just not to pile more on for three days and digest what was happening. Of course, it was the topic of my thoughts and conversation. So, no, I never lost it. We know it takes four or five days on a vacation until you really leave work, right? And that never happened.

[Assistant] But at least you had, like you said, no more work piled on top of it.

[User] It still felt good.

[Assistant] I'll bet.

[User] I felt great in those days. I had never felt more like the agency I always wanted to work for was now putting its trust in me to make something happen. I felt very good about the team, the whole team, and I have never felt better than I did in those days. [Still had to remain objective, however, that we were all doing the right thing.]

[Assistant] Ready to go. Wendy Lawrence became then not necessarily as your back-up, but part of your support team. Was she able to give you information and some advice, or how did she help work with this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It still felt good.

[Assistant] I'll bet.

[User] I felt great in those days. I had never felt more like the agency I always wanted to work for was now putting its trust in me to make something happen. I felt very good about the team, the whole team, and I have never felt better than I did in those days. [Still had to remain objective, however, that we were all doing the right thing.]

[Assistant] Ready to go. Wendy Lawrence became then not necessarily as your back-up, but part of your support team. Was she able to give you information and some advice, or how did she help work with this mission?

[User] Wendy was still a critical part of the mission. In fact, I could not have succeeded at this without her. She still went up. She knew more about the planning of the transfer and placing gear and what all the gear was than I did, of course. Although I was a back-up, she knew [this mission] better than I did. So she went up and just made things work fast up on board and got me organized and off on a great start. So it's a misnomer to think Wendy wasn't on that mission.

[Assistant] Did Mike Foale have any good advice for you as he went through the handover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I felt great in those days. I had never felt more like the agency I always wanted to work for was now putting its trust in me to make something happen. I felt very good about the team, the whole team, and I have never felt better than I did in those days. [Still had to remain objective, however, that we were all doing the right thing.]

[Assistant] Ready to go. Wendy Lawrence became then not necessarily as your back-up, but part of your support team. Was she able to give you information and some advice, or how did she help work with this mission?

[User] Wendy was still a critical part of the mission. In fact, I could not have succeeded at this without her. She still went up. She knew more about the planning of the transfer and placing gear and what all the gear was than I did, of course. Although I was a back-up, she knew [this mission] better than I did. So she went up and just made things work fast up on board and got me organized and off on a great start. So it's a misnomer to think Wendy wasn't on that mission.

[Assistant] Did Mike Foale have any good advice for you as he went through the handover?

[User] Well, handovers are very important. He had a lot of good advice. He showed me how to work the toilet properly [along with a myriad of critical information].

[Assistant] I'm sure that's essential.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wendy was still a critical part of the mission. In fact, I could not have succeeded at this without her. She still went up. She knew more about the planning of the transfer and placing gear and what all the gear was than I did, of course. Although I was a back-up, she knew [this mission] better than I did. So she went up and just made things work fast up on board and got me organized and off on a great start. So it's a misnomer to think Wendy wasn't on that mission.

[Assistant] Did Mike Foale have any good advice for you as he went through the handover?

[User] Well, handovers are very important. He had a lot of good advice. He showed me how to work the toilet properly [along with a myriad of critical information].

[Assistant] I'm sure that's essential.

[User] Really, the advice we went through was everything from how to work with Russians and their operations technique, which we had not simulated on the ground. In fact, I had never even really met the two I flew with, only at a distance at a party or so, but never done anything together. And he had then been in space for three or four weeks with them, and he gave me a lot of hints on how to get along well, which were very useful, things like, "You have to be present at every communications pass. These guys want you there, and that interrupts about every hour of your work for fifteen, twenty minutes and makes it hard to do long-term work such as tissue culture." I never dreamed that if I was in the middle of an experiment that I would have to put it down or even put it away and save it and then go to a comm pass, and that was what was expected up there, and we never did fully work through that problem, and that's something that we're working with on ISS operations.

[Assistant] Would you describe just what it felt like when you were in the Mir and the hatch closed and your only chance to go back to Earth at that time -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, handovers are very important. He had a lot of good advice. He showed me how to work the toilet properly [along with a myriad of critical information].

[Assistant] I'm sure that's essential.

[User] Really, the advice we went through was everything from how to work with Russians and their operations technique, which we had not simulated on the ground. In fact, I had never even really met the two I flew with, only at a distance at a party or so, but never done anything together. And he had then been in space for three or four weeks with them, and he gave me a lot of hints on how to get along well, which were very useful, things like, "You have to be present at every communications pass. These guys want you there, and that interrupts about every hour of your work for fifteen, twenty minutes and makes it hard to do long-term work such as tissue culture." I never dreamed that if I was in the middle of an experiment that I would have to put it down or even put it away and save it and then go to a comm pass, and that was what was expected up there, and we never did fully work through that problem, and that's something that we're working with on ISS operations.

[Assistant] Would you describe just what it felt like when you were in the Mir and the hatch closed and your only chance to go back to Earth at that time -

[User] I can tell you exactly how it felt. It was exactly I hadn't had the feeling in many years, since I was a little kid, and it came back instantly. It was like when I went to my first summer camp and there's my bags, and there's the station wagon driving away with my mom and dad, and it's just time to take what you've got and go make it happen. It's an excitement. You don't know what's about to occur, but you know it's going to be exciting.

[Assistant] Of course, the big difference is that if you really got homesick at camp, you could have called Mom and Dad. They might have come back to get you, but -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really, the advice we went through was everything from how to work with Russians and their operations technique, which we had not simulated on the ground. In fact, I had never even really met the two I flew with, only at a distance at a party or so, but never done anything together. And he had then been in space for three or four weeks with them, and he gave me a lot of hints on how to get along well, which were very useful, things like, "You have to be present at every communications pass. These guys want you there, and that interrupts about every hour of your work for fifteen, twenty minutes and makes it hard to do long-term work such as tissue culture." I never dreamed that if I was in the middle of an experiment that I would have to put it down or even put it away and save it and then go to a comm pass, and that was what was expected up there, and we never did fully work through that problem, and that's something that we're working with on ISS operations.

[Assistant] Would you describe just what it felt like when you were in the Mir and the hatch closed and your only chance to go back to Earth at that time -

[User] I can tell you exactly how it felt. It was exactly I hadn't had the feeling in many years, since I was a little kid, and it came back instantly. It was like when I went to my first summer camp and there's my bags, and there's the station wagon driving away with my mom and dad, and it's just time to take what you've got and go make it happen. It's an excitement. You don't know what's about to occur, but you know it's going to be exciting.

[Assistant] Of course, the big difference is that if you really got homesick at camp, you could have called Mom and Dad. They might have come back to get you, but -

[User] It didn't feel that way then.

[Assistant] Of course not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can tell you exactly how it felt. It was exactly I hadn't had the feeling in many years, since I was a little kid, and it came back instantly. It was like when I went to my first summer camp and there's my bags, and there's the station wagon driving away with my mom and dad, and it's just time to take what you've got and go make it happen. It's an excitement. You don't know what's about to occur, but you know it's going to be exciting.

[Assistant] Of course, the big difference is that if you really got homesick at camp, you could have called Mom and Dad. They might have come back to get you, but -

[User] It didn't feel that way then.

[Assistant] Of course not.

[User] It felt about as possible to do that then as it did to say, "Well, I'm coming home in the Soyuz tomorrow," at NASA.

[Assistant] How fast did the months go? I know your days were busy, I know they were long, but did it seem at the time like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It didn't feel that way then.

[Assistant] Of course not.

[User] It felt about as possible to do that then as it did to say, "Well, I'm coming home in the Soyuz tomorrow," at NASA.

[Assistant] How fast did the months go? I know your days were busy, I know they were long, but did it seem at the time like that?

[User] The time went about as it was. I wouldn't say it went fast or slow. It seemed like four and a half months. It seemed like a long time, although I mentally had moved to space. That was my tool for lasting the time, and, "Some day I'll move back to Earth." I didn't feel like I was moving back to Earth until the Shuttle launched to come get me.

[Assistant] That was your signal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It felt about as possible to do that then as it did to say, "Well, I'm coming home in the Soyuz tomorrow," at NASA.

[Assistant] How fast did the months go? I know your days were busy, I know they were long, but did it seem at the time like that?

[User] The time went about as it was. I wouldn't say it went fast or slow. It seemed like four and a half months. It seemed like a long time, although I mentally had moved to space. That was my tool for lasting the time, and, "Some day I'll move back to Earth." I didn't feel like I was moving back to Earth until the Shuttle launched to come get me.

[Assistant] That was your signal.

[User] That was the signal that you're really highly likely going to come home soon. And then I started thinking about Earth thoughts and driving to the Stop and Go to get coffee, and, you know, all the Earth thoughts. I let them flood back in. But until then, I didn't let them. This metal house and processed air was my world, and that was what I was living in.

[Assistant] This is the farthest you've ever been away from home at Christmas. Did you celebrate in your own way while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The time went about as it was. I wouldn't say it went fast or slow. It seemed like four and a half months. It seemed like a long time, although I mentally had moved to space. That was my tool for lasting the time, and, "Some day I'll move back to Earth." I didn't feel like I was moving back to Earth until the Shuttle launched to come get me.

[Assistant] That was your signal.

[User] That was the signal that you're really highly likely going to come home soon. And then I started thinking about Earth thoughts and driving to the Stop and Go to get coffee, and, you know, all the Earth thoughts. I let them flood back in. But until then, I didn't let them. This metal house and processed air was my world, and that was what I was living in.

[Assistant] This is the farthest you've ever been away from home at Christmas. Did you celebrate in your own way while you were there?

[User] Christmas and Chanukah we celebrated. Couldn't light the candles, but it was a nice time. We slowed down a bit in the work, actually took some time off. Special communications periods. But I kind of felt like I do at Christmas on Earth. I'm ready to get the world moving again and back to normal activity.

[Assistant] I remember reading in one of your letters that, "The little things mean a lot up here." Have you appreciated those even more now that you're back on Earth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the signal that you're really highly likely going to come home soon. And then I started thinking about Earth thoughts and driving to the Stop and Go to get coffee, and, you know, all the Earth thoughts. I let them flood back in. But until then, I didn't let them. This metal house and processed air was my world, and that was what I was living in.

[Assistant] This is the farthest you've ever been away from home at Christmas. Did you celebrate in your own way while you were there?

[User] Christmas and Chanukah we celebrated. Couldn't light the candles, but it was a nice time. We slowed down a bit in the work, actually took some time off. Special communications periods. But I kind of felt like I do at Christmas on Earth. I'm ready to get the world moving again and back to normal activity.

[Assistant] I remember reading in one of your letters that, "The little things mean a lot up here." Have you appreciated those even more now that you're back on Earth?

[User] I'm trying to hang on to that. Although humans, I guess, always revert to the level they're at, the little things I'm starting to forget all these little things that seemed so important when I first came back, although I'm going to hang on to many of them. I still like pulling my car up and getting out and getting a coffee at any of these Stop and Gos, and I try to do it slowly and enjoy that time in that and all the things like that.\n\n Little things do mean a lot on a long-duration space mission. Like I felt, for example, that movies had much more impact on me, surprising impact, where you see all these people interacting and interacting with Earth things. Movies that I've watched again since, that I watched two times or three times in space in little pieces in the cracks of my time just absolutely impacted me, and it was really fun.

[Assistant] You saw them, I guess, in a completely different way because you -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Christmas and Chanukah we celebrated. Couldn't light the candles, but it was a nice time. We slowed down a bit in the work, actually took some time off. Special communications periods. But I kind of felt like I do at Christmas on Earth. I'm ready to get the world moving again and back to normal activity.

[Assistant] I remember reading in one of your letters that, "The little things mean a lot up here." Have you appreciated those even more now that you're back on Earth?

[User] I'm trying to hang on to that. Although humans, I guess, always revert to the level they're at, the little things I'm starting to forget all these little things that seemed so important when I first came back, although I'm going to hang on to many of them. I still like pulling my car up and getting out and getting a coffee at any of these Stop and Gos, and I try to do it slowly and enjoy that time in that and all the things like that.\n\n Little things do mean a lot on a long-duration space mission. Like I felt, for example, that movies had much more impact on me, surprising impact, where you see all these people interacting and interacting with Earth things. Movies that I've watched again since, that I watched two times or three times in space in little pieces in the cracks of my time just absolutely impacted me, and it was really fun.

[Assistant] You saw them, I guess, in a completely different way because you -

[User] Different way. Your brain has this open thirst for Earth images and relationships, and they just seem to magnify in intensity.

[Assistant] Have you been to movies? Have you had time since you've been back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to hang on to that. Although humans, I guess, always revert to the level they're at, the little things I'm starting to forget all these little things that seemed so important when I first came back, although I'm going to hang on to many of them. I still like pulling my car up and getting out and getting a coffee at any of these Stop and Gos, and I try to do it slowly and enjoy that time in that and all the things like that.\n\n Little things do mean a lot on a long-duration space mission. Like I felt, for example, that movies had much more impact on me, surprising impact, where you see all these people interacting and interacting with Earth things. Movies that I've watched again since, that I watched two times or three times in space in little pieces in the cracks of my time just absolutely impacted me, and it was really fun.

[Assistant] You saw them, I guess, in a completely different way because you -

[User] Different way. Your brain has this open thirst for Earth images and relationships, and they just seem to magnify in intensity.

[Assistant] Have you been to movies? Have you had time since you've been back?

[User] I've not been to a theater, but I've watched a number of videos.

[Assistant] Well, it will be interesting for you to go to the new unless you've already been to the stadium seating with the -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Different way. Your brain has this open thirst for Earth images and relationships, and they just seem to magnify in intensity.

[Assistant] Have you been to movies? Have you had time since you've been back?

[User] I've not been to a theater, but I've watched a number of videos.

[Assistant] Well, it will be interesting for you to go to the new unless you've already been to the stadium seating with the -

[User] I've heard about that. That's another example of how the world has changed. Suddenly I hear these new theaters with big, comfortable chairs, and there's many things like that I need to try on this new Earth that has grown in the two years.

[Assistant] Have to find another three days and fill those up. You are an astronaut, an electrical engineer, doctor, inventor, flight surgeon, aerobatic pilot. Were any one of these areas more important, of expertise, while you were up on the Mir, or was it a combination of all of these talents that helped you get through those four and a half months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've not been to a theater, but I've watched a number of videos.

[Assistant] Well, it will be interesting for you to go to the new unless you've already been to the stadium seating with the -

[User] I've heard about that. That's another example of how the world has changed. Suddenly I hear these new theaters with big, comfortable chairs, and there's many things like that I need to try on this new Earth that has grown in the two years.

[Assistant] Have to find another three days and fill those up. You are an astronaut, an electrical engineer, doctor, inventor, flight surgeon, aerobatic pilot. Were any one of these areas more important, of expertise, while you were up on the Mir, or was it a combination of all of these talents that helped you get through those four and a half months?

[User] Well, when you talk about training for a space station mission, that kind of training starts when you're eight or nine years old and take your first lawnmower apart and can't get it back together, maybe. It takes a life of handling tools and handling equipment of all kinds, whether it's medical equipment or airplanes themselves or mechanical equipment or the pipes in your house. So I think it's the kind of person that gets their hands into the gear that does well, and it's not something that can be trained in an hour class or two-hour class. A few things can, but you don't know what you're going to run into on a long-duration mission like that, and you just have to have a bag of tricks in your head.

[Assistant] How well were you able to communicate with those that you want to communicate on a -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've heard about that. That's another example of how the world has changed. Suddenly I hear these new theaters with big, comfortable chairs, and there's many things like that I need to try on this new Earth that has grown in the two years.

[Assistant] Have to find another three days and fill those up. You are an astronaut, an electrical engineer, doctor, inventor, flight surgeon, aerobatic pilot. Were any one of these areas more important, of expertise, while you were up on the Mir, or was it a combination of all of these talents that helped you get through those four and a half months?

[User] Well, when you talk about training for a space station mission, that kind of training starts when you're eight or nine years old and take your first lawnmower apart and can't get it back together, maybe. It takes a life of handling tools and handling equipment of all kinds, whether it's medical equipment or airplanes themselves or mechanical equipment or the pipes in your house. So I think it's the kind of person that gets their hands into the gear that does well, and it's not something that can be trained in an hour class or two-hour class. A few things can, but you don't know what you're going to run into on a long-duration mission like that, and you just have to have a bag of tricks in your head.

[Assistant] How well were you able to communicate with those that you want to communicate on a -

[User] Communicate with who?

[Assistant] With whomever you would like to on Earth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when you talk about training for a space station mission, that kind of training starts when you're eight or nine years old and take your first lawnmower apart and can't get it back together, maybe. It takes a life of handling tools and handling equipment of all kinds, whether it's medical equipment or airplanes themselves or mechanical equipment or the pipes in your house. So I think it's the kind of person that gets their hands into the gear that does well, and it's not something that can be trained in an hour class or two-hour class. A few things can, but you don't know what you're going to run into on a long-duration mission like that, and you just have to have a bag of tricks in your head.

[Assistant] How well were you able to communicate with those that you want to communicate on a -

[User] Communicate with who?

[Assistant] With whomever you would like to on Earth.

[User] We had adequate communication. E-mail worked good. The flight surgeon takes on a new importance in a mission like this. They do more than what would traditionally be considered flight surgeon work. They are your alter ego. They're yourself on the ground, and they know the people you need to talk with and communicate with, and they're the gateway to you. Chris Flynn [phonetic], my flight surgeon, distributed the information out. He answered people without letting it all come to me as appropriate, and this takes a long relationship before the mission. He has to know you and your family, and you have to know him, and he's under a similar stress as you are on these long-duration missions. In fact, the whole ground team is.\n\n In fact, we're flying one more mission, and that's ISS, and we're going to fly it for twenty years. It's one twenty-year mission, and this is very hard on all the operational teams as well as the people in space. So anyway, the flight surgeon becomes an integral part of that. The people in Mission Control, the ground teams, are on the mission with you, and I forget where we were leading with that.

[Assistant] We were talking about the communication and how -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Communicate with who?

[Assistant] With whomever you would like to on Earth.

[User] We had adequate communication. E-mail worked good. The flight surgeon takes on a new importance in a mission like this. They do more than what would traditionally be considered flight surgeon work. They are your alter ego. They're yourself on the ground, and they know the people you need to talk with and communicate with, and they're the gateway to you. Chris Flynn [phonetic], my flight surgeon, distributed the information out. He answered people without letting it all come to me as appropriate, and this takes a long relationship before the mission. He has to know you and your family, and you have to know him, and he's under a similar stress as you are on these long-duration missions. In fact, the whole ground team is.\n\n In fact, we're flying one more mission, and that's ISS, and we're going to fly it for twenty years. It's one twenty-year mission, and this is very hard on all the operational teams as well as the people in space. So anyway, the flight surgeon becomes an integral part of that. The people in Mission Control, the ground teams, are on the mission with you, and I forget where we were leading with that.

[Assistant] We were talking about the communication and how -

[User] Oh, communications. So E-mail was a critical part of the communications. I honestly felt it was better than the real-time audio occasionally with audio-video because it never failed that the phone would ring, you might say, at the wrong time, when my hands were full, I needed to be doing something. Whereas e-mail, you can answer it and send it when you want, edit it until it means what you like. Again, the e-mail, similar to movies, had more impact to me. I could fell the people's words. I liked the e-mail the best.

[Assistant] Is there a sense of privacy with the E-mail as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had adequate communication. E-mail worked good. The flight surgeon takes on a new importance in a mission like this. They do more than what would traditionally be considered flight surgeon work. They are your alter ego. They're yourself on the ground, and they know the people you need to talk with and communicate with, and they're the gateway to you. Chris Flynn [phonetic], my flight surgeon, distributed the information out. He answered people without letting it all come to me as appropriate, and this takes a long relationship before the mission. He has to know you and your family, and you have to know him, and he's under a similar stress as you are on these long-duration missions. In fact, the whole ground team is.\n\n In fact, we're flying one more mission, and that's ISS, and we're going to fly it for twenty years. It's one twenty-year mission, and this is very hard on all the operational teams as well as the people in space. So anyway, the flight surgeon becomes an integral part of that. The people in Mission Control, the ground teams, are on the mission with you, and I forget where we were leading with that.

[Assistant] We were talking about the communication and how -

[User] Oh, communications. So E-mail was a critical part of the communications. I honestly felt it was better than the real-time audio occasionally with audio-video because it never failed that the phone would ring, you might say, at the wrong time, when my hands were full, I needed to be doing something. Whereas e-mail, you can answer it and send it when you want, edit it until it means what you like. Again, the e-mail, similar to movies, had more impact to me. I could fell the people's words. I liked the e-mail the best.

[Assistant] Is there a sense of privacy with the E-mail as well?

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of people were reading it, but we were still pretty candid with each other.

[Assistant] How about the communications among your friends in space? Did you all have time where you just visited about everyday things like conversation that you would have here if you were at home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, communications. So E-mail was a critical part of the communications. I honestly felt it was better than the real-time audio occasionally with audio-video because it never failed that the phone would ring, you might say, at the wrong time, when my hands were full, I needed to be doing something. Whereas e-mail, you can answer it and send it when you want, edit it until it means what you like. Again, the e-mail, similar to movies, had more impact to me. I could fell the people's words. I liked the e-mail the best.

[Assistant] Is there a sense of privacy with the E-mail as well?

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of people were reading it, but we were still pretty candid with each other.

[Assistant] How about the communications among your friends in space? Did you all have time where you just visited about everyday things like conversation that you would have here if you were at home?

[User] Yes. We had all the spectrum of political, philosophy, just fun and jokes. We had the whole spectrum of communications in space. I found that my Russian was excellent for technical areas and operational areas, it was pretty good for simple philosophical issues and talk, and it was bad at jokes. I couldn't understand jokes, but then, again, I don't understand jokes in English too well.

[Assistant] Were you able to share anything about America and American culture with them that you felt they had not understood or didn't [unclear]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of people were reading it, but we were still pretty candid with each other.

[Assistant] How about the communications among your friends in space? Did you all have time where you just visited about everyday things like conversation that you would have here if you were at home?

[User] Yes. We had all the spectrum of political, philosophy, just fun and jokes. We had the whole spectrum of communications in space. I found that my Russian was excellent for technical areas and operational areas, it was pretty good for simple philosophical issues and talk, and it was bad at jokes. I couldn't understand jokes, but then, again, I don't understand jokes in English too well.

[Assistant] Were you able to share anything about America and American culture with them that you felt they had not understood or didn't [unclear]?

[User] There's a lot of misconceptions about American culture that Russians or any other culture have, and there was a lot of misconceptions I had. And we knocked those around pretty extensively.

[Assistant] I have one more question for you, and then I was going to ask Paul and Mark if they have any. But I want you to explain a quote from your mother, who says to remember that "normal" for David isn't normal for most people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We had all the spectrum of political, philosophy, just fun and jokes. We had the whole spectrum of communications in space. I found that my Russian was excellent for technical areas and operational areas, it was pretty good for simple philosophical issues and talk, and it was bad at jokes. I couldn't understand jokes, but then, again, I don't understand jokes in English too well.

[Assistant] Were you able to share anything about America and American culture with them that you felt they had not understood or didn't [unclear]?

[User] There's a lot of misconceptions about American culture that Russians or any other culture have, and there was a lot of misconceptions I had. And we knocked those around pretty extensively.

[Assistant] I have one more question for you, and then I was going to ask Paul and Mark if they have any. But I want you to explain a quote from your mother, who says to remember that "normal" for David isn't normal for most people.

[User] Everything seemed perfectly normal to me.

[Assistant] Are you not going to speak for your mother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's a lot of misconceptions about American culture that Russians or any other culture have, and there was a lot of misconceptions I had. And we knocked those around pretty extensively.

[Assistant] I have one more question for you, and then I was going to ask Paul and Mark if they have any. But I want you to explain a quote from your mother, who says to remember that "normal" for David isn't normal for most people.

[User] Everything seemed perfectly normal to me.

[Assistant] Are you not going to speak for your mother?

[User] She's had fun with all this. I know she has. She's turned out to be a pretty good spokesman, I think, when I've reviewed some of the videos, and the media has been interested in her. She's been real supportive, and so has the whole family about all this and made it extra fun. In fact, this is no fun unless you can share it with friends and family and all, and so it's, in that sense, enriched my life.\n\n There's another paradox, in that when you go to Russia for a long time to live and then into space for a long time, people think, well, what does this do to your relationships? Do you get distant or whatever? And you do miss the people and need to catch up, but it actually brought me closer. I established relationships with people, for instance on e-mail, that I might not have talked to at all for those years. We had a fair amount of conversation, so it's actually brought me closer to a lot of people. Now the problem is keeping up with them all.

[Assistant] I know your days just continue to be full, but I think that may be part of that "normal" that your mom was talking about, that your days are always going to be full.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] And then did they help you?

[User] Well, before I wanted to be an astronaut, until that moment, I wanted to be a garbage man, because Mr. Peacock, our garbage man, let me run the garbage truck it was an old-time thing with big levers and let me help him, and before that they said, "It's okay if you want to be a garbage man, just so you're the best one."\n\n And when I announced I wanted to be an astronaut, they were cautious about over-encouraging me. They said, you know, "Not many people get to do that and don't be too disappointed if you can't." And I didn't get too caught up in that. I always wanted to be one, but I realized you had to become something else first and do well at that and that the odds were low and you needed to follow your interests in any case. So wherever you wound up, if the musical chairs game knocked you out, that you'd be happy there. So that is a caution.\n\n But I did realize that anybody can work at NASA that does well in their area, and I ended up working at NASA for seven, eight years before I was an astronaut. It had its ups and downs, then, too, but overall it was a great place to work. So it's certainly true that anybody who has a strong desire and does well can work in the space program, and a lot can fly in space.

[Assistant] Thanks for joining us today.

[User] Thank you very much. I'm glad that you are interested.

[Assistant] I have a couple of questions. They're not really related, so pardon me for jumping around. You've mentioned in your discussions your enjoyment of mechanical equipment. Would you share a few stories of your involvement in some of the repairs on board Mir that [unclear]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'd like to go again for another long-duration mission, of course, on the ISS.

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck and hope you achieve that.

[User] We have a great space program, though. It's not often you build a new space program, a new space platform, a new space system, and this is a neat, rare time in NASA history that we all get to go through it. So it's going to be fascinating.

[Assistant] Are you looking forward to working with additional international partners?

[User] That really sweetens the program, to have all these seventeen, eighteen countries involved. It's very international and a lot of travel in that sense, but that can work as a very positive -

[Assistant] Your language list will increase as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have a great space program, though. It's not often you build a new space program, a new space platform, a new space system, and this is a neat, rare time in NASA history that we all get to go through it. So it's going to be fascinating.

[Assistant] Are you looking forward to working with additional international partners?

[User] That really sweetens the program, to have all these seventeen, eighteen countries involved. It's very international and a lot of travel in that sense, but that can work as a very positive -

[Assistant] Your language list will increase as well.

[User] What's interesting is I don't know if we'll learn other languages, but almost everybody has learned Russian. You know, these international partners, in many cases, have already flown their astronauts with them on the Mir, and it's odd sitting and talking with a Chinese guy in Russian or talking with a Frenchman, Jean-Loup Chretien, for instance. He and I actually prefer speaking in Russian as opposed to either French or English. The Italians also. So, in a sense, Russian has become a central language, although English is the primary language on the International Station. So we get a choice of languages, usually Russian or English.

[Assistant] Well, it's nice you have a back-up. It's one you didn't expect, but it's -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What's interesting is I don't know if we'll learn other languages, but almost everybody has learned Russian. You know, these international partners, in many cases, have already flown their astronauts with them on the Mir, and it's odd sitting and talking with a Chinese guy in Russian or talking with a Frenchman, Jean-Loup Chretien, for instance. He and I actually prefer speaking in Russian as opposed to either French or English. The Italians also. So, in a sense, Russian has become a central language, although English is the primary language on the International Station. So we get a choice of languages, usually Russian or English.

[Assistant] Well, it's nice you have a back-up. It's one you didn't expect, but it's -

[User] That's right. Some things are better to be said in Russian. Russians have words and expressions that we don't have.

[Assistant] Such as?

[User] Well, we don't have a word as good as olbaldenya. If you say to a girl that's what she is, it's better than beautiful and likeable and all that, and we don't even have a word that good.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, that's a good example. Is there anything else that you would like to add for the record? This will be kept in the library for future researchers and historians to review, and if there's something that you'd like to add at this time, we certainly would welcome you to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had electricity. Oh, yeah. We had electricity. And I had a well and an outhouse. So and then I got a little paraffin burning two burner stove, so I could cook on. No refrigeration, so but so we're living comfortably.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I got to going, showing the films in various places, and on Saturday night I would take the bus with the miners up to the mines, and I would show films there. They really loved it and miners tended to be communists. So one time I slipped in some sort of pro-American political stuff.

[Assistant] OK, alright.

[User] But it was followed by Laurel and Hardy, so I didn't get any negative feedback.

[Assistant] So you showed these movies in town, but you also showed them to the miners.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got to going, showing the films in various places, and on Saturday night I would take the bus with the miners up to the mines, and I would show films there. They really loved it and miners tended to be communists. So one time I slipped in some sort of pro-American political stuff.

[Assistant] OK, alright.

[User] But it was followed by Laurel and Hardy, so I didn't get any negative feedback.

[Assistant] So you showed these movies in town, but you also showed them to the miners.

[User] Miners, yeah, three communities in one.

[Assistant] Did you get to know people that way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was followed by Laurel and Hardy, so I didn't get any negative feedback.

[Assistant] So you showed these movies in town, but you also showed them to the miners.

[User] Miners, yeah, three communities in one.

[Assistant] Did you get to know people that way?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Like, were community members also involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Miners, yeah, three communities in one.

[Assistant] Did you get to know people that way?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Like, were community members also involved?

[User] Oh yes, they wouldn't let me go unescorted. Heaven forbid a woman unescorted alone. When I first moved into the community, in fact, I had one mother's club, one part of town, a small town and then 10 blocks away another one. And they would, oh no, we've got to walk you there. And after a while I said, everybody knows me here. Nobody's going to mess with me. You don't need to walk with me. I'll just go on my own. Oh yeah, that makes sense because you do the Peace Corps thing. You introduce yourself to the mayor, to the police chief, to all the authorities, the city council people. And so you were a known quantity and you were actually protected by the whole community because they wanted you to like them and have a good experience. And they succeeded. I liked it.

[Assistant] Were you the first volunteer at that site?