[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I think we were the only country in the world that they allowed that. Because if you traveled, many countries, both in southern Africa as well other places, if you could, wouldn't accept your passport if you had a South African stamp in it.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So they knew that.

[Assistant] Okay, because they were against, that was a way of showing their opposition to apartheid?

[User] Correct. So we had these, you know, two passports. So you gave the one passport to the South Africans and they stamped it in. And then we had this other passport later when you traveled. So and we took a bus in the middle of the night to a town called Roma, which is where the National University of Lesotho is, and the nicest, probably one of the nicest secondary schools in the country, which was a Catholic school, and went into dorms. So almost all of us were either secondary school teachers or they had a group of teacher trainers. And then they had a couple of kind of people that would work on a higher level with, you know, training programs, even at the National University and other places. And my friend actually became, Mike became a teacher at the National University in Lesotho, National University in Botswana, and the National University in Swaziland. So he went around teaching management training.

[Assistant] As a Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. So we had these, you know, two passports. So you gave the one passport to the South Africans and they stamped it in. And then we had this other passport later when you traveled. So and we took a bus in the middle of the night to a town called Roma, which is where the National University of Lesotho is, and the nicest, probably one of the nicest secondary schools in the country, which was a Catholic school, and went into dorms. So almost all of us were either secondary school teachers or they had a group of teacher trainers. And then they had a couple of kind of people that would work on a higher level with, you know, training programs, even at the National University and other places. And my friend actually became, Mike became a teacher at the National University in Lesotho, National University in Botswana, and the National University in Swaziland. So he went around teaching management training.

[Assistant] As a Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] As a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] He did those. At first he didn't like it very much. Again, I said he was gifted at languages during our training. He became quite fluent in Sesotho in a very short period of time.

[Assistant] Wow, what a gift.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] He did those. At first he didn't like it very much. Again, I said he was gifted at languages during our training. He became quite fluent in Sesotho in a very short period of time.

[Assistant] Wow, what a gift.

[User] But then, but then all of a sudden he's in Botswana, which he can use that because Setswana is very close to Sesotho, but then Setswati is very different. So he, but he'd learned bits and pieces of all of those. But that was the group. And we were in these dorms and it was a wonderful time just getting to know all the other, uh, Peace Corps volunteers. I met some of the people that are my best friends today. I also was exposed, I think, back up. I was, I think I grew up in a, you know, Madison was pretty conservative where I was. So, you know, obviously, I knew, I knew, obviously there was people that were gay or lesbian.

[Assistant] In the training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then, but then all of a sudden he's in Botswana, which he can use that because Setswana is very close to Sesotho, but then Setswati is very different. So he, but he'd learned bits and pieces of all of those. But that was the group. And we were in these dorms and it was a wonderful time just getting to know all the other, uh, Peace Corps volunteers. I met some of the people that are my best friends today. I also was exposed, I think, back up. I was, I think I grew up in a, you know, Madison was pretty conservative where I was. So, you know, obviously, I knew, I knew, obviously there was people that were gay or lesbian.

[Assistant] In the training group?

[User] No. Back, backing up. Back when I was in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But I didn't, it was like that was totally out of my thought. I didn't even think about that at the time. And it really wasn't until I became a Peace Corps volunteer and a couple of my best friends were gay. A couple of women that I, and I started to examine my own self in terms of where was I and this feelings of these things. And it opened up a whole different world than where people are from.

[Assistant] Yeah. Another thing that you didn't anticipate Peace Corps giving you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Back, backing up. Back when I was in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But I didn't, it was like that was totally out of my thought. I didn't even think about that at the time. And it really wasn't until I became a Peace Corps volunteer and a couple of my best friends were gay. A couple of women that I, and I started to examine my own self in terms of where was I and this feelings of these things. And it opened up a whole different world than where people are from.

[Assistant] Yeah. Another thing that you didn't anticipate Peace Corps giving you.

[User] Never. You know.

[Assistant] So many, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never. You know.

[Assistant] So many, yes.

[User] Didn't even think about it.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And you know, it's, it's.

[Assistant] What, uh, were, if there were gay people in your Peace Corps group, were they able to be out or do they have to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, it's, it's.

[Assistant] What, uh, were, if there were gay people in your Peace Corps group, were they able to be out or do they have to?

[User] No, not really. Not at the time. It wasn't that, in fact, my, again, one of my better friends and still they, Bill Botticker, who lives in San Francisco now. Bill didn't come out to any of us till about a year later.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was, it was more of, you know.

[Assistant] While still in Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was, it was more of, you know.

[Assistant] While still in Lesotho?

[User] Yeah, we were still in Lesotho when he said that. I don't know who you are. I didn't know any of this stuff. Part of it came out that we started discussing because at the time we used to get Newsweek magazine as volunteers.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] They, that one, when we were in country very early on, they came out with a story about this new disease called Slim's Disease. And nobody knew what it was, but it was impacting the gay community and people, the drug users.

[Assistant] Was that what we now call HIV AIDS?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And so, and so Bill, we didn't know at the time. Bill actually would go to gay bars in South Africa.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] He would escape and get out. And he was a math teacher. He ended up being in Roma in that national university. So he was close to the border and could get out. And it's a whole different community. So it wasn't till about a year later and then there's a couple other people came out. You just kind of, you know, that's, that's when I really, it became very clear to me. It's like, so what? People are people.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] And I learned to, and I'll say this very openly, I learned that I could love a man and not confuse that with the whole sexual side of it.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. You can, you can feel emotion and caring deeply.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He would escape and get out. And he was a math teacher. He ended up being in Roma in that national university. So he was close to the border and could get out. And it's a whole different community. So it wasn't till about a year later and then there's a couple other people came out. You just kind of, you know, that's, that's when I really, it became very clear to me. It's like, so what? People are people.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] And I learned to, and I'll say this very openly, I learned that I could love a man and not confuse that with the whole sexual side of it.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. You can, you can feel emotion and caring deeply.

[User] Exactly. And that was that was probably, I mean, I look at the learnings that you get from an experience like Peace Corps, and those are the types of things that you learn about yourself that carry on forward and impact what you do. And not only then but afterwards and what you do with your children and those things that are just so powerful. And I'm not sure if Peace Corps, I don't know how you do that to people trying to go in now or even afterwards, how you really kind of parlay that kind of information to them, because I think you almost have to experience that yourself.

[Assistant] I think so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I learned to, and I'll say this very openly, I learned that I could love a man and not confuse that with the whole sexual side of it.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. You can, you can feel emotion and caring deeply.

[User] Exactly. And that was that was probably, I mean, I look at the learnings that you get from an experience like Peace Corps, and those are the types of things that you learn about yourself that carry on forward and impact what you do. And not only then but afterwards and what you do with your children and those things that are just so powerful. And I'm not sure if Peace Corps, I don't know how you do that to people trying to go in now or even afterwards, how you really kind of parlay that kind of information to them, because I think you almost have to experience that yourself.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] And how does that happen to you as an individual? So, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] More about training. You were living in a dorm in a Catholic secondary school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And that was that was probably, I mean, I look at the learnings that you get from an experience like Peace Corps, and those are the types of things that you learn about yourself that carry on forward and impact what you do. And not only then but afterwards and what you do with your children and those things that are just so powerful. And I'm not sure if Peace Corps, I don't know how you do that to people trying to go in now or even afterwards, how you really kind of parlay that kind of information to them, because I think you almost have to experience that yourself.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] And how does that happen to you as an individual? So, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] More about training. You were living in a dorm in a Catholic secondary school.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] School must have been out of session.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And how does that happen to you as an individual? So, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] More about training. You were living in a dorm in a Catholic secondary school.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] School must have been out of session.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During that time, so they had the space for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] School must have been out of session.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During that time, so they had the space for you.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, and there would have been classrooms for you to meet in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During that time, so they had the space for you.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, and there would have been classrooms for you to meet in?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what's, what sorts of activities went on during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, and there would have been classrooms for you to meet in?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what's, what sorts of activities went on during training?

[User] Well, it was, you know, language was a big one, cultural was another one.

[Assistant] And the language was Sesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sesotho, right. So it's a Bantu language. So it's, you know, the country's Lesotho, the people are Basotho, one person is a Mosotho, the language is Sesotho. And you can do all the way up to Uganda now, it's Uganda, Baganda, Moganda, Lugandan. And so there's a lot of similarities as you go through and even some common words. So you know, all of that was happening. We also did teacher training.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah.

[User] And Peace Corps hired, hired. It was really hired students to come back where they provided them lunches. So at one point for a couple of weeks, we were in classrooms teaching students that would come back.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So which was also wonderful because it's pretty intimidating. And it wasn't until later, one of the problems with that is, again, I said we were in one of the best high schools in the country. They had labs as well- equipped as we had in the United States.

[Assistant] Now sitting in Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Peace Corps hired, hired. It was really hired students to come back where they provided them lunches. So at one point for a couple of weeks, we were in classrooms teaching students that would come back.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So which was also wonderful because it's pretty intimidating. And it wasn't until later, one of the problems with that is, again, I said we were in one of the best high schools in the country. They had labs as well- equipped as we had in the United States.

[Assistant] Now sitting in Lesotho?

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] That's good to know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] That's good to know.

[User] And it was all developed by the, the, with the, um, Oblate brothers in the Catholic Church. But it didn't prepare you that well when you went to your own site. Because I went to my own site and I had a beaker and a Bunsen burner that didn't work. That's what I had for equipment.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So it wasn't, it wasn't a very, um, good job of really preparing most of us for our situation.

[Assistant] In that way. But it did get you standing in front of a group of kids and talking and trying to figure out how you're going to present an idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was all developed by the, the, with the, um, Oblate brothers in the Catholic Church. But it didn't prepare you that well when you went to your own site. Because I went to my own site and I had a beaker and a Bunsen burner that didn't work. That's what I had for equipment.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So it wasn't, it wasn't a very, um, good job of really preparing most of us for our situation.

[Assistant] In that way. But it did get you standing in front of a group of kids and talking and trying to figure out how you're going to present an idea.

[User] Right. And so they would have trainers that were there that would sit in your classroom and. See, part of what, part of the group that we had were teacher trainers. So these were people that already had teaching certificates. So they would help. It was peer to peer in the sense that they would sit in the classroom and talk to you about what you did and help you write, we had to write lesson plans. We had to do all of these things. And so it was, um, it was a great time. And then you had the, all the social other things that went on. There was kind of social activities that they would put together, and then you could play basketball or go for hikes. We went for a beautiful hike. I have a beautiful picture of us in the mountains. You know, one of the things that people don't think about when they think of Africa is a place like Lesotho where it snows. I got snowed in and snowed out of my site.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's not the image one has of Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And so they would have trainers that were there that would sit in your classroom and. See, part of what, part of the group that we had were teacher trainers. So these were people that already had teaching certificates. So they would help. It was peer to peer in the sense that they would sit in the classroom and talk to you about what you did and help you write, we had to write lesson plans. We had to do all of these things. And so it was, um, it was a great time. And then you had the, all the social other things that went on. There was kind of social activities that they would put together, and then you could play basketball or go for hikes. We went for a beautiful hike. I have a beautiful picture of us in the mountains. You know, one of the things that people don't think about when they think of Africa is a place like Lesotho where it snows. I got snowed in and snowed out of my site.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's not the image one has of Africa.

[User] No, not at all. So there was very high mountains. They had a little place you could go skiing. It was in the Drakensberg range of mountains in South Africa. And my, one of the best things I ever got that I really looked at that Peace Corps gave us, and I really heeded it, was a very warm sleeping bag.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Because it got cold.

[Assistant] And you brought that over with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all. So there was very high mountains. They had a little place you could go skiing. It was in the Drakensberg range of mountains in South Africa. And my, one of the best things I ever got that I really looked at that Peace Corps gave us, and I really heeded it, was a very warm sleeping bag.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Because it got cold.

[Assistant] And you brought that over with you?

[User] I brought that over with me.

[Assistant] Yeah. You wouldn't have ordinarily thought to put that in a trunk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it got cold.

[Assistant] And you brought that over with you?

[User] I brought that over with me.

[Assistant] Yeah. You wouldn't have ordinarily thought to put that in a trunk.

[User] No, I was going to Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was going to Africa.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] The good thing about that is we didn't have malaria.

[Assistant] True.

[User] We had other things that, you know, dysentery, things that you had because of water.

[Assistant] Were, uh, was part of Peace Corps training getting a big series of vaccinations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The good thing about that is we didn't have malaria.

[Assistant] True.

[User] We had other things that, you know, dysentery, things that you had because of water.

[Assistant] Were, uh, was part of Peace Corps training getting a big series of vaccinations?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And that happened in Lesotho, not here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had other things that, you know, dysentery, things that you had because of water.

[Assistant] Were, uh, was part of Peace Corps training getting a big series of vaccinations?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And that happened in Lesotho, not here?

[User] We did before. We had to get some before. But then you also had your gamma globulin shots.

[Assistant] Ah, yes. Every six months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] And that happened in Lesotho, not here?

[User] We did before. We had to get some before. But then you also had your gamma globulin shots.

[Assistant] Ah, yes. Every six months?

[User] And if you, you know, you were threatened if you didn't come to get that, you were, you could go home. They'd send you home.

[Assistant] That's a hepatitis, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And if you, you know, you were threatened if you didn't come to get that, you were, you could go home. They'd send you home.

[Assistant] That's a hepatitis, right?

[User] Right. So which they don't do anymore.

[Assistant] They don't?

[User] I don't think or else they have a different way of doing gamma globulin.

[Assistant] There was a huge shot in the butt.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think or else they have a different way of doing gamma globulin.

[Assistant] There was a huge shot in the butt.

[User] It was. Yes. And we always made a big party of it. So everybody had to come down from their sites and you'd have to get your GG shots.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that was a great kind of part of it.

[Assistant] But back to training. So you're learning language. Are they talking, were there classes about the history of Lesotho, the politics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was a great kind of part of it.

[Assistant] But back to training. So you're learning language. Are they talking, were there classes about the history of Lesotho, the politics?

[User] Yes. I mean, we had like at that time, the ANC, the African National Congress, was considered a terrorist organization and they were in Lesotho. So they, Peace Corps actually had ANC come and talk to us. And I can remember them saying, you know, thank you for all being, all of you being here. But if you really want to help us, go home. Because you as an American have such more influence if you go home and, you know, look at how you vote and do those things. Now, after having said that, they said, okay, we understand you're not going to do that. And we also understand you need to educate yourself on what the realities are.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So please keep that in mind when you're in Lesotho where people are free in a sense, um, that just across the border. And South Africa on several occasions shut down Lesotho because the ANC would go do something in South Africa. You know, it was a violent time, bombings and, and they literally shut the border and had jets flying over. They raided Lesotho.

[Assistant] While you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I mean, we had like at that time, the ANC, the African National Congress, was considered a terrorist organization and they were in Lesotho. So they, Peace Corps actually had ANC come and talk to us. And I can remember them saying, you know, thank you for all being, all of you being here. But if you really want to help us, go home. Because you as an American have such more influence if you go home and, you know, look at how you vote and do those things. Now, after having said that, they said, okay, we understand you're not going to do that. And we also understand you need to educate yourself on what the realities are.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So please keep that in mind when you're in Lesotho where people are free in a sense, um, that just across the border. And South Africa on several occasions shut down Lesotho because the ANC would go do something in South Africa. You know, it was a violent time, bombings and, and they literally shut the border and had jets flying over. They raided Lesotho.

[Assistant] While you were there?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah, we had volunteers in the capital city, several of them, that got caught in between some firefights between the South African Defense Force and the ANC and bombs went off. And, you know, luckily nobody from our group were injured, but were in pretty scary situations.

[Assistant] Were you instructed by Peace Corps about what stance you were to take or not take vis a vis apartheid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And how we impact the world. And I think, you know, Phyllis, and I know if I jump into this now, this is one of the things that I think, that I just think, uh, that I wish more Americans would do Peace Corps. It's not for everybody, but they would, because I get very. For me personally now, when people say, well, why do they hate us? Or we, you know, we should be, you know, we're loved, we're doing all this for them. I just kind of shake my head. And you say, do you realize the history of what we've done and who we've supported?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, that, that, you know, people aren't going to see everything that we do as being positive and everything that we do isn't in the best interest of the country that we're in. It's for American interests. That's what foreign policy. All these other countries basically do the same thing too. But we've done some horrible, horrible things. So if you don't have that perspective and you're here, it's, you know, you have a lot of the hatred and perspectives that I hear people talk about today. And I look at, you know, what our potential people holding high offices have, their perspectives. And I just kind of shake my head because it's, it's, uh, so narrow and it also doesn't take into consideration so many other things that should be.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So that's a one, I mean, that's what, that's what that training did. You get very close to a, to a group of people and we were pretty close as a group. There's actually five or six of us that got very close. And we still, every other year, we're going this year, have rented a beach house in North Carolina.

[Assistant] No kidding. You get together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, that, that, you know, people aren't going to see everything that we do as being positive and everything that we do isn't in the best interest of the country that we're in. It's for American interests. That's what foreign policy. All these other countries basically do the same thing too. But we've done some horrible, horrible things. So if you don't have that perspective and you're here, it's, you know, you have a lot of the hatred and perspectives that I hear people talk about today. And I look at, you know, what our potential people holding high offices have, their perspectives. And I just kind of shake my head because it's, it's, uh, so narrow and it also doesn't take into consideration so many other things that should be.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So that's a one, I mean, that's what, that's what that training did. You get very close to a, to a group of people and we were pretty close as a group. There's actually five or six of us that got very close. And we still, every other year, we're going this year, have rented a beach house in North Carolina.

[Assistant] No kidding. You get together?

[User] There's a woman from Alaska that comes, a couple from, um, Bill from San Francisco and his partner, a couple from upstate New York, the only married couple in the group, upstate New York. We come from Wisconsin. And there's somebody that comes from Washington, D.C., and Colorado.

[Assistant] And these are all people who were in your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's a one, I mean, that's what, that's what that training did. You get very close to a, to a group of people and we were pretty close as a group. There's actually five or six of us that got very close. And we still, every other year, we're going this year, have rented a beach house in North Carolina.

[Assistant] No kidding. You get together?

[User] There's a woman from Alaska that comes, a couple from, um, Bill from San Francisco and his partner, a couple from upstate New York, the only married couple in the group, upstate New York. We come from Wisconsin. And there's somebody that comes from Washington, D.C., and Colorado.

[Assistant] And these are all people who were in your training group?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] When you all you went through that one week together and then you went through training in Lesotho together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] When you all you went through that one week together and then you went through training in Lesotho together.

[User] And then we went off and did. But we stayed, we stayed really, really close.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] So it's just incredible.

[Assistant] How long did that training last in Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we went off and did. But we stayed, we stayed really, really close.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] So it's just incredible.

[Assistant] How long did that training last in Lesotho?

[User] That training was, what was it? Eight weeks, it was almost two months.

[Assistant] Okay. That's a good chunk of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it's just incredible.

[Assistant] How long did that training last in Lesotho?

[User] That training was, what was it? Eight weeks, it was almost two months.

[Assistant] Okay. That's a good chunk of time.

[User] And, you know, you're 24 hours, you're together.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And then at the end of that, was there a swearing in ceremony?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, you're 24 hours, you're together.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And then at the end of that, was there a swearing in ceremony?

[User] Well, the big thing I can remember at the end of the training is we got together and they had balloons up. They had a big map of Lesotho and they had balloons up.

[Assistant] Oh wow.

[User] And we took turns throwing a dart at a balloon and it would pop and there would be somebody's name so we could go up and read the place and the name. And that's how people found out.

[Assistant] So until that moment, you didn't know where in Lesotho you were going to be assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after you've got, you've been there and you really kind of understand what you're getting yourself into, that changes, which is a good thing. They need to do that. And I knew I wanted to be up in the mountains and I got that, but others didn't. So it was, it was wonderful. And so that was a, I mean, it was such a celebratory time and place. It was just pretty amazing to kind of go through that and be a part of that. And then we did have, yes, we went to the ambassador's residence and had a swearing in ceremony. It was a fantastic ceremony. Plus we had the swimming pool at the ambassador's.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And when I was in Peace Corps, and this again, this is a difference than being overseas with the new, you know, FaceTime and Skype and all of this. We were really discouraged from calling home, using any kind of two-way radio or any of that, because there was also the association with Americans and CIA.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] Especially in South Africa and Southern Africa, what was going on.

[Assistant] So if the people would see you on the phone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Especially in South Africa and Southern Africa, what was going on.

[Assistant] So if the people would see you on the phone?

[User] Right, right. So we were discouraged, so we wrote.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, when I. The other big thing I can remember about after that was going up to my site because that was, you know, you'd been intensely in this kind of environment, experiences, training. And then the next day I, there was a, Musan Deely, who was the driver for Peace Corps. He and I going up the mountain road.

[Assistant] Just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. So we were discouraged, so we wrote.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, when I. The other big thing I can remember about after that was going up to my site because that was, you know, you'd been intensely in this kind of environment, experiences, training. And then the next day I, there was a, Musan Deely, who was the driver for Peace Corps. He and I going up the mountain road.

[Assistant] Just the two of you?

[User] Just the two of us going up the mountain road to my site, which the mountain road ended up, you know, most of it was dirt. And it was, it was pretty, you know, you're down steep.

[Assistant] On the edge of a cliff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, when I. The other big thing I can remember about after that was going up to my site because that was, you know, you'd been intensely in this kind of environment, experiences, training. And then the next day I, there was a, Musan Deely, who was the driver for Peace Corps. He and I going up the mountain road.

[Assistant] Just the two of you?

[User] Just the two of us going up the mountain road to my site, which the mountain road ended up, you know, most of it was dirt. And it was, it was pretty, you know, you're down steep.

[Assistant] On the edge of a cliff.

[User] Edge of a cliff, and you're going up to this school. And he took me up there and.

[Assistant] And how long, how long a drive is this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just the two of us going up the mountain road to my site, which the mountain road ended up, you know, most of it was dirt. And it was, it was pretty, you know, you're down steep.

[Assistant] On the edge of a cliff.

[User] Edge of a cliff, and you're going up to this school. And he took me up there and.

[Assistant] And how long, how long a drive is this?

[User] It was about four hours.

[Assistant] From the capital city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about four hours.

[Assistant] From the capital city?

[User] Yeah, because the road bent and you're going up.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You're going up. And so he dropped me off and it was holiday time still. So there wasn't. He dropped me off and he left and I'm kind of.

[Assistant] You're standing there with your suitcase?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because the road bent and you're going up.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You're going up. And so he dropped me off and it was holiday time still. So there wasn't. He dropped me off and he left and I'm kind of.

[Assistant] You're standing there with your suitcase?

[User] And so I end up going over to the, to the priest's home.

[Assistant] Oh, it's a Catholic school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I end up going over to the, to the priest's home.

[Assistant] Oh, it's a Catholic school?

[User] It's a Catholic school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The priest's home. Because, well, when he first drove in, there was the school on the side of the mountain, which was out in the middle of nowhere. And then he kept driving. And he came around this, back in this cliff to this mountain was this beautiful, beautiful mission, just gorgeous. And so.

[Assistant] But we're not in the village, there's not a town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The priest's home. Because, well, when he first drove in, there was the school on the side of the mountain, which was out in the middle of nowhere. And then he kept driving. And he came around this, back in this cliff to this mountain was this beautiful, beautiful mission, just gorgeous. And so.

[Assistant] But we're not in the village, there's not a town?

[User] The village is down. I could see the village, but it was down the valley, down. But there was a river in the valley and the village Marakabeis was the name of it. It was down by the river.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the mission was up on top. So I eventually. And they were supposed to be meeting us there. But, you know, of course communications and things were a lot different. But eventually they came out and they put me in this, it was an old convent, this one room. It was an old convent, and it ended up being that's where I stayed. This guy from Sri Lanka, Guy Amar, was there. And then there was.

[Assistant] He was a faculty, another faculty member?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the mission was up on top. So I eventually. And they were supposed to be meeting us there. But, you know, of course communications and things were a lot different. But eventually they came out and they put me in this, it was an old convent, this one room. It was an old convent, and it ended up being that's where I stayed. This guy from Sri Lanka, Guy Amar, was there. And then there was.

[Assistant] He was a faculty, another faculty member?

[User] Right. And then there was a, there was a, uh, Lesotho couple who became, Indotti Majody became one of my, and Me Mama Jody became some of my best friends and their, their children. I can remember them, the youngest ones there. So we had this little. And we had a beautiful porch that I had a rocking chair that we could sit and rock and look off down the valley. And we would sit at, you know, you didn't have television, you had radio. You could get radio, South African radio mainly, but you'd have tea at night and coffee and just sit and talk, you know, and that electricity would stay on. There was a generator. The electricity would stay on till I think it was 9:00.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And then the electricity would go off and then you had, you know, paraffin and kerosene lamps and things.

[Assistant] But you had people to talk to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And then there was a, there was a, uh, Lesotho couple who became, Indotti Majody became one of my, and Me Mama Jody became some of my best friends and their, their children. I can remember them, the youngest ones there. So we had this little. And we had a beautiful porch that I had a rocking chair that we could sit and rock and look off down the valley. And we would sit at, you know, you didn't have television, you had radio. You could get radio, South African radio mainly, but you'd have tea at night and coffee and just sit and talk, you know, and that electricity would stay on. There was a generator. The electricity would stay on till I think it was 9:00.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And then the electricity would go off and then you had, you know, paraffin and kerosene lamps and things.

[Assistant] But you had people to talk to.

[User] Yeah, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] In the dark. Sit out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then the electricity would go off and then you had, you know, paraffin and kerosene lamps and things.

[Assistant] But you had people to talk to.

[User] Yeah, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] In the dark. Sit out there.

[User] You could just sit out there and talk. And it was just, it was one, I, you know, if anything, you know, when I think back in memory, I treasure those times of just kind of the simplicity of it all. And you had more chance to just talk.

[Assistant] So when you first got there, you were taken to the, you had a room in what had been a convent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was wonderful.

[Assistant] In the dark. Sit out there.

[User] You could just sit out there and talk. And it was just, it was one, I, you know, if anything, you know, when I think back in memory, I treasure those times of just kind of the simplicity of it all. And you had more chance to just talk.

[Assistant] So when you first got there, you were taken to the, you had a room in what had been a convent?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And was that where you stayed for your whole two years as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could just sit out there and talk. And it was just, it was one, I, you know, if anything, you know, when I think back in memory, I treasure those times of just kind of the simplicity of it all. And you had more chance to just talk.

[Assistant] So when you first got there, you were taken to the, you had a room in what had been a convent?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And was that where you stayed for your whole two years as a volunteer?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or did you move into something a little?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or did you move into something a little?

[User] Well, they ended up building houses over by the school.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so about a little into my second year, they moved us over there. And I really wish they wouldn't have because it was just more isolated, because it was just, there wasn't more of the mission things that were going on. And there was a primary school at the mission. So there was always kids around.

[Assistant] Little kids around. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they ended up building houses over by the school.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so about a little into my second year, they moved us over there. And I really wish they wouldn't have because it was just more isolated, because it was just, there wasn't more of the mission things that were going on. And there was a primary school at the mission. So there was always kids around.

[Assistant] Little kids around. Yeah, yeah.

[User] And at night we're over at the school where we were, there was no electricity. There was no running water.

[Assistant] Oh, not even something that would end at 9:00, there wasn't?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so about a little into my second year, they moved us over there. And I really wish they wouldn't have because it was just more isolated, because it was just, there wasn't more of the mission things that were going on. And there was a primary school at the mission. So there was always kids around.

[Assistant] Little kids around. Yeah, yeah.

[User] And at night we're over at the school where we were, there was no electricity. There was no running water.

[Assistant] Oh, not even something that would end at 9:00, there wasn't?

[User] No, there was no.

[Assistant] And no running water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And at night we're over at the school where we were, there was no electricity. There was no running water.

[Assistant] Oh, not even something that would end at 9:00, there wasn't?

[User] No, there was no.

[Assistant] And no running water?

[User] No running water. So we had to go down. There's just a little ways down the valley. But to get water and carry that up.

[Assistant] In a bucket.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In a bucket. And then we'd fill. During the school, when school was on, they had kids do that, that would go down and fill it into a bigger bucket.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we had this outside, this bigger bucket.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that's, but it was a nice house, but.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the room in the convent first and then I want to hear more about the, the nicer house without the amenities. Are we okay time wise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had this outside, this bigger bucket.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that's, but it was a nice house, but.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the room in the convent first and then I want to hear more about the, the nicer house without the amenities. Are we okay time wise?

[User] We're fine.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. In your, uh. My mind just went blank. At the, when you lived in the, in the convent was there some community? All you, you were just in a room so where did you cook or how did, how did you eat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're fine.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. In your, uh. My mind just went blank. At the, when you lived in the, in the convent was there some community? All you, you were just in a room so where did you cook or how did, how did you eat?

[User] We got, um, we often ate together, all of us. But I had a little gas cylinder with a little gas stove. And so that's what, we'd cook things on the little gas stove.

[Assistant] Outside?

[User] No, it was inside the room. There was another little room that off of that that we could put the gas cooker on.

[Assistant] Okay. So each of you had a little gas cooker?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got, um, we often ate together, all of us. But I had a little gas cylinder with a little gas stove. And so that's what, we'd cook things on the little gas stove.

[Assistant] Outside?

[User] No, it was inside the room. There was another little room that off of that that we could put the gas cooker on.

[Assistant] Okay. So each of you had a little gas cooker?

[User] Right. That was right there.

[Assistant] And that was provided for you? Did Peace Corps issue that to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was inside the room. There was another little room that off of that that we could put the gas cooker on.

[Assistant] Okay. So each of you had a little gas cooker?

[User] Right. That was right there.

[Assistant] And that was provided for you? Did Peace Corps issue that to you?

[User] No, we had to get it.

[Assistant] You had to go buy it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had to get it.

[Assistant] You had to go buy it?

[User] We had to go buy it. We had to, that was part of our settling in allowance that we got from Peace Corps. And to get gas, we had to go down to the town in the valley, which, it was a long way. So often we would get a horse, strap it to it, or else we could. If at my first year, if the priest was going down, he'd give us a ride in the vehicle. And we could get our gas cylinders and bring those back up. Um, there was no heating.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I mean, a lot of them, they had these paraffin heaters, but I didn't like it because I didn't like the smell. So I just wore more clothes.

[Assistant] You're talking about a place where it snowed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to go buy it. We had to, that was part of our settling in allowance that we got from Peace Corps. And to get gas, we had to go down to the town in the valley, which, it was a long way. So often we would get a horse, strap it to it, or else we could. If at my first year, if the priest was going down, he'd give us a ride in the vehicle. And we could get our gas cylinders and bring those back up. Um, there was no heating.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I mean, a lot of them, they had these paraffin heaters, but I didn't like it because I didn't like the smell. So I just wore more clothes.

[Assistant] You're talking about a place where it snowed.

[User] It was cold. And taking, you know, taking a bath. It was cold. It was cold. And, you know, you had mice and, you know, those types of things in the building. So I would ball up my socks at night and I'd hear the scratching and I'd take my flashlight, the torch, and turn it on and fire my socks. So it's just such great, great, wonderful memories.

[Assistant] But, um, you were eating, who cooked? You cooked for yourselves? It wasn't like a cook for the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, a lot of them, they had these paraffin heaters, but I didn't like it because I didn't like the smell. So I just wore more clothes.

[Assistant] You're talking about a place where it snowed.

[User] It was cold. And taking, you know, taking a bath. It was cold. It was cold. And, you know, you had mice and, you know, those types of things in the building. So I would ball up my socks at night and I'd hear the scratching and I'd take my flashlight, the torch, and turn it on and fire my socks. So it's just such great, great, wonderful memories.

[Assistant] But, um, you were eating, who cooked? You cooked for yourselves? It wasn't like a cook for the mission.

[User] No, it's, you know. The priests and the nuns lived very well. They had a huge garden and they weren't very accommodating and sharing.

[Assistant] Oh. They didn't invite you all over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was cold. And taking, you know, taking a bath. It was cold. It was cold. And, you know, you had mice and, you know, those types of things in the building. So I would ball up my socks at night and I'd hear the scratching and I'd take my flashlight, the torch, and turn it on and fire my socks. So it's just such great, great, wonderful memories.

[Assistant] But, um, you were eating, who cooked? You cooked for yourselves? It wasn't like a cook for the mission.

[User] No, it's, you know. The priests and the nuns lived very well. They had a huge garden and they weren't very accommodating and sharing.

[Assistant] Oh. They didn't invite you all over?

[User] No. And I, you know, this kind of shows you. You know, I grew up Catholic, but I didn't consider myself religious, and still don't. But I would go to church because it was a part of the community. And I stopped going when the priest admonished the community for not putting more of their money into the`. And I just said, I can't. This is just, these people, these are subsistence farmers. They're barely getting by.

[Assistant] And meanwhile, the people running the mission are living quite comfortably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. And I, you know, this kind of shows you. You know, I grew up Catholic, but I didn't consider myself religious, and still don't. But I would go to church because it was a part of the community. And I stopped going when the priest admonished the community for not putting more of their money into the`. And I just said, I can't. This is just, these people, these are subsistence farmers. They're barely getting by.

[Assistant] And meanwhile, the people running the mission are living quite comfortably.

[User] They, the priests and the nuns lived very well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Vehicles, tractors that they did for their mission land. And so they lived, had a two, it was the only two story building around. The new convent they built was two stories, was very nice. I think I was invited to dinner once, um. So, and I can, I'll go into something else a little bit later in terms of the teaching that became what I consider the best thing I ever did as a Peace Corps volunteer, which, which really put me at odds with the priest of the mission.

[Assistant] Let's save that for a minute, because I just want to get straight about your living situation, and then we'll go on to the classroom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, the priests and the nuns lived very well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Vehicles, tractors that they did for their mission land. And so they lived, had a two, it was the only two story building around. The new convent they built was two stories, was very nice. I think I was invited to dinner once, um. So, and I can, I'll go into something else a little bit later in terms of the teaching that became what I consider the best thing I ever did as a Peace Corps volunteer, which, which really put me at odds with the priest of the mission.

[Assistant] Let's save that for a minute, because I just want to get straight about your living situation, and then we'll go on to the classroom.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] When I'm thinking about your health and how much control you had over what you were eating. And so were you able to get vegetables and protein? And was the water potable? What did you have to do to keep healthy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Vehicles, tractors that they did for their mission land. And so they lived, had a two, it was the only two story building around. The new convent they built was two stories, was very nice. I think I was invited to dinner once, um. So, and I can, I'll go into something else a little bit later in terms of the teaching that became what I consider the best thing I ever did as a Peace Corps volunteer, which, which really put me at odds with the priest of the mission.

[Assistant] Let's save that for a minute, because I just want to get straight about your living situation, and then we'll go on to the classroom.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] When I'm thinking about your health and how much control you had over what you were eating. And so were you able to get vegetables and protein? And was the water potable? What did you have to do to keep healthy?

[User] Getting the right kind of vegetables, it all depended on what time of the month it was and what year. At the beginning of the month after we got paid, then you could get things, you can buy things.

[Assistant] So there's a market in that little village down there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] When I'm thinking about your health and how much control you had over what you were eating. And so were you able to get vegetables and protein? And was the water potable? What did you have to do to keep healthy?

[User] Getting the right kind of vegetables, it all depended on what time of the month it was and what year. At the beginning of the month after we got paid, then you could get things, you can buy things.

[Assistant] So there's a market in that little village down there?

[User] And it was wonderful because, you know, bartering is a part of the, kind of the, I would say, even I'll generalize, the African kind of spirit so.

[Assistant] And I'm thinking that maybe the market people didn't speak English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting the right kind of vegetables, it all depended on what time of the month it was and what year. At the beginning of the month after we got paid, then you could get things, you can buy things.

[Assistant] So there's a market in that little village down there?

[User] And it was wonderful because, you know, bartering is a part of the, kind of the, I would say, even I'll generalize, the African kind of spirit so.

[Assistant] And I'm thinking that maybe the market people didn't speak English.

[User] No. They didn't speak any English.

[Assistant] Right. So you got to use whatever you learned in training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was wonderful because, you know, bartering is a part of the, kind of the, I would say, even I'll generalize, the African kind of spirit so.

[Assistant] And I'm thinking that maybe the market people didn't speak English.

[User] No. They didn't speak any English.

[Assistant] Right. So you got to use whatever you learned in training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] At least in the market bargaining.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] At least in the market bargaining.

[User] That and going out to the bars, that's where, that's when you get to know many of the men. Because in those rural areas, women didn't go out. The only time a woman would go out would be they would basically be a prostitute, especially in the rural areas, because you just didn't, you went out to what they called the shebeen, which was a local place. And they may have regular beer that we know or they had local beer. It was a great place to go and meet men and talk to them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And find out what was going on.

[Assistant] But now I'm feeling very sorry for the woman Peace Corps volunteer in Lesotho.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That and going out to the bars, that's where, that's when you get to know many of the men. Because in those rural areas, women didn't go out. The only time a woman would go out would be they would basically be a prostitute, especially in the rural areas, because you just didn't, you went out to what they called the shebeen, which was a local place. And they may have regular beer that we know or they had local beer. It was a great place to go and meet men and talk to them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And find out what was going on.

[Assistant] But now I'm feeling very sorry for the woman Peace Corps volunteer in Lesotho.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Who was way out in the country. They'd be very isolated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And find out what was going on.

[Assistant] But now I'm feeling very sorry for the woman Peace Corps volunteer in Lesotho.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Who was way out in the country. They'd be very isolated.

[User] It was a challenge. I mean, in most places I've been in the world, it feels women have unique challenges with that. I mean, most places I've been are very, very male dominated. And that's, that wasn't the exception in Lesotho. It was very much the norm. So, yeah, it was much more of a challenge. But they also were in women's groups. You know, people were very good at finding their kind of niches and things so.

[Assistant] So you went to the market and you could buy vegetables or you could buy whatever was in season at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You couldn't barter in there.

[Assistant] No.

[User] With the market you could. And so a lot of times I would barter with, the women at first knew. You know, didn't know who I was, but I would barter with them. And then I would usually, because they'd always ask for more money, because I was this white guy that was there.

[Assistant] Oh, sure.

[User] This foreigner, I should say more, because it happened no matter what you were.

[Assistant] So how would it work? They would say, um, what's? What's the currency in Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This foreigner, I should say more, because it happened no matter what you were.

[Assistant] So how would it work? They would say, um, what's? What's the currency in Lesotho?

[User] Maloti.

[Assistant] Maloti.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So suppose they would say, um, you want to buy this, what? What, a loaf of bread. I'm making this up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maloti.

[Assistant] Maloti.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So suppose they would say, um, you want to buy this, what? What, a loaf of bread. I'm making this up.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I don't know if they had bread. They have bread?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So suppose they would say, um, you want to buy this, what? What, a loaf of bread. I'm making this up.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I don't know if they had bread. They have bread?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. You want to buy a loaf of bread and it's going to be 10 maloti.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I don't know if they had bread. They have bread?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. You want to buy a loaf of bread and it's going to be 10 maloti.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then you would counter with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. You want to buy a loaf of bread and it's going to be 10 maloti.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then you would counter with?

[User] They'd ask for 20, let's say. If it was supposed to be 10 there, they'd ask for 20 from me.

[Assistant] Okay, so when they asked for 20, then you knew it was supposed to be 10.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They'd ask for 20, let's say. If it was supposed to be 10 there, they'd ask for 20 from me.

[Assistant] Okay, so when they asked for 20, then you knew it was supposed to be 10.

[User] So I would barter them down. I'd say no, I'd say eight. And they would say, no, no, all this time. And they go up to, you know, 15. Then we get down. And eventually I'd get them down to 10 or eight.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I'd pay them 15. And after a while.

[Assistant] And you just enjoyed, they enjoyed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was kind of an insult if you didn't do that.

[Assistant] Oh, sure.

[User] It was part of that. So and after a while they knew me and they, they, they'd ask for 50, you know, because they knew we'd go back and do all of this stuff. And I got to know them. I got invited to their houses. Many of their kids were, were students at the school. So I got to know the parents. And so that was a wonderful, that whole part of it was wonderful.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] And, you know, I'd ride horses. The, the Lesotho, they had, matter of fact, the big Irish group that I told about earlier were trying to revitalize the Basotho [or Basuto] pony. So main transportation in the mountains was in, was on a small horse.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And you had one or access to one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was part of that. So and after a while they knew me and they, they, they'd ask for 50, you know, because they knew we'd go back and do all of this stuff. And I got to know them. I got invited to their houses. Many of their kids were, were students at the school. So I got to know the parents. And so that was a wonderful, that whole part of it was wonderful.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] And, you know, I'd ride horses. The, the Lesotho, they had, matter of fact, the big Irish group that I told about earlier were trying to revitalize the Basotho [or Basuto] pony. So main transportation in the mountains was in, was on a small horse.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And you had one or access to one?

[User] Access one that I could ride. So I would ride. The teachers, the teacher trainers actually, many of them had horses or motorcycles. They were the only ones.

[Assistant] Because they'd have to go from village to village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, I'd ride horses. The, the Lesotho, they had, matter of fact, the big Irish group that I told about earlier were trying to revitalize the Basotho [or Basuto] pony. So main transportation in the mountains was in, was on a small horse.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And you had one or access to one?

[User] Access one that I could ride. So I would ride. The teachers, the teacher trainers actually, many of them had horses or motorcycles. They were the only ones.

[Assistant] Because they'd have to go from village to village.

[User] They'd go to different schools. So, um, they were the only ones that could have motorcycles also. It was forbidden for anybody else. You weren't even supposed to ride on a motorcycle. So it was wonderful.

[Assistant] But what were you eating? Was there, were there, was there animals? Was there meat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, you could get meat. But so at the beginning of the month, I may get meat. At the end, I didn't have enough money because I'd spent stuff. But you could, you know, we'd get sacks of potatoes and get them. So we ate a lot of potato soup we made. Greens, you could get greens and have kind of moroho. And the staple in Lesotho like a lot of east and southern Africa is maize meal.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So you'd make what they call papa.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] Or pap. And so you'd have, you'd make maize meal up and you could, if you could have some kind of a gravy, and you could get those Knorr's gravy mixes.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you'd make what they call papa.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] Or pap. And so you'd have, you'd make maize meal up and you could, if you could have some kind of a gravy, and you could get those Knorr's gravy mixes.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] And then they had, uh, for breakfast and things, they had what they call jungle oats, which was oatmeal. So you had oatmeal and things like that. You could get eggs. We could buy eggs from people around.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So not too bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or pap. And so you'd have, you'd make maize meal up and you could, if you could have some kind of a gravy, and you could get those Knorr's gravy mixes.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] And then they had, uh, for breakfast and things, they had what they call jungle oats, which was oatmeal. So you had oatmeal and things like that. You could get eggs. We could buy eggs from people around.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So not too bad.

[User] No, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't too bad at all.

[Assistant] I'm thinking about the maize meal. That's corn.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they had, uh, for breakfast and things, they had what they call jungle oats, which was oatmeal. So you had oatmeal and things like that. You could get eggs. We could buy eggs from people around.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So not too bad.

[User] No, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't too bad at all.

[Assistant] I'm thinking about the maize meal. That's corn.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And of course, corn originated here in the Americas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't too bad at all.

[Assistant] I'm thinking about the maize meal. That's corn.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And of course, corn originated here in the Americas.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So before the 1500s, people in south Africa would not have had, there must have been some other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So before the 1500s, people in south Africa would not have had, there must have been some other?

[User] It would have been millet.

[Assistant] Millet?

[User] Yeah. There would be a millet or a sorghum, you know, which is millet, that would have been their.

[Assistant] Some other kind of grain.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would have been millet.

[Assistant] Millet?

[User] Yeah. There would be a millet or a sorghum, you know, which is millet, that would have been their.

[Assistant] Some other kind of grain.

[User] Yeah, that would have been their staple.

[Assistant] And what about water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. There would be a millet or a sorghum, you know, which is millet, that would have been their.

[Assistant] Some other kind of grain.

[User] Yeah, that would have been their staple.

[Assistant] And what about water?

[User] It was, you know, it was. We're up in the mountains, so it's spring fed. It's pretty clean.

[Assistant] There's no factory up above you dumping?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that would have been their staple.

[Assistant] And what about water?

[User] It was, you know, it was. We're up in the mountains, so it's spring fed. It's pretty clean.

[Assistant] There's no factory up above you dumping?

[User] No factory above us. It was pretty clean. You had to be careful just because of cows. And so we always boiled our water.

[Assistant] You did? Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, you know, it was. We're up in the mountains, so it's spring fed. It's pretty clean.

[Assistant] There's no factory up above you dumping?

[User] No factory above us. It was pretty clean. You had to be careful just because of cows. And so we always boiled our water.

[Assistant] You did? Okay.

[User] Yeah. Because you didn't know what animals, sheep. You know, they had sheep and goats and cattle and horses. So you didn't know where they were. They didn't usually have protected places, so you just didn't know what could be in your water. I actually got amoebic dysentery. I'd never been sicker in my life at my site and trying to get down to the capital city was, was, I mean, it's, right now it's kind of a fond memory. It was, it was such an experience and there's some funny parts of it. But at the time I was just really, really sick. And that's because, you know, sometimes you can't, if somebody offers you some tea or something.

[Assistant] That's just it, when you're a guest in somebody's home, you have to accept it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No factory above us. It was pretty clean. You had to be careful just because of cows. And so we always boiled our water.

[Assistant] You did? Okay.

[User] Yeah. Because you didn't know what animals, sheep. You know, they had sheep and goats and cattle and horses. So you didn't know where they were. They didn't usually have protected places, so you just didn't know what could be in your water. I actually got amoebic dysentery. I'd never been sicker in my life at my site and trying to get down to the capital city was, was, I mean, it's, right now it's kind of a fond memory. It was, it was such an experience and there's some funny parts of it. But at the time I was just really, really sick. And that's because, you know, sometimes you can't, if somebody offers you some tea or something.

[Assistant] That's just it, when you're a guest in somebody's home, you have to accept it.

[User] You accept it, you know, and somebody cooks you something. You don't know how clean their hands are, but you're not going to question that.

[Assistant] No. And you survived this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Because you didn't know what animals, sheep. You know, they had sheep and goats and cattle and horses. So you didn't know where they were. They didn't usually have protected places, so you just didn't know what could be in your water. I actually got amoebic dysentery. I'd never been sicker in my life at my site and trying to get down to the capital city was, was, I mean, it's, right now it's kind of a fond memory. It was, it was such an experience and there's some funny parts of it. But at the time I was just really, really sick. And that's because, you know, sometimes you can't, if somebody offers you some tea or something.

[Assistant] That's just it, when you're a guest in somebody's home, you have to accept it.

[User] You accept it, you know, and somebody cooks you something. You don't know how clean their hands are, but you're not going to question that.

[Assistant] No. And you survived this.

[User] I survived it and I have great stories with some of that. So.

[Assistant] So we're talking about water. Um, what about water for bathing and toilets? What did you do for bathrooms?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You accept it, you know, and somebody cooks you something. You don't know how clean their hands are, but you're not going to question that.

[Assistant] No. And you survived this.

[User] I survived it and I have great stories with some of that. So.

[Assistant] So we're talking about water. Um, what about water for bathing and toilets? What did you do for bathrooms?

[User] You just, you had a bucket and there was a toilet like in both houses. They had a toilet, but you had to fill up a bucket.

[Assistant] Oh, and put it in the tank.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I survived it and I have great stories with some of that. So.

[Assistant] So we're talking about water. Um, what about water for bathing and toilets? What did you do for bathrooms?

[User] You just, you had a bucket and there was a toilet like in both houses. They had a toilet, but you had to fill up a bucket.

[Assistant] Oh, and put it in the tank.

[User] Yeah, well, not in the tank. The one didn't even have a tank. You just poured it in.

[Assistant] Into the toilet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You just, you had a bucket and there was a toilet like in both houses. They had a toilet, but you had to fill up a bucket.

[Assistant] Oh, and put it in the tank.

[User] Yeah, well, not in the tank. The one didn't even have a tank. You just poured it in.

[Assistant] Into the toilet?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It'd go down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, not in the tank. The one didn't even have a tank. You just poured it in.

[Assistant] Into the toilet?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It'd go down.

[User] To flush. Right. So that wasn't, those things weren't bad.

[Assistant] Where did it go then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tank under there that they would do. And, you know, I never even thought about pumping those things out or what they'd do with them or anything like that. But that would have been an issue at some point. Um. But it was, you know, it's just, I just have such incredible, incredible, fond memories of that. And I realize that, you know, electricity I could really do without. I wasn't, that wasn't that big a deal. Not having running water that, you just realize how much time it takes to do anything, to wash dishes. You got to heat things up, to wash dishes, to take a bath. You know, we would heat water to take a, it was just too darn cold.

[Assistant] Cold, yes.

[User] To take a sponge bath. And you learn how to take a, you know, use a minimal amount of water and take a sponge bath.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] Washing clothes, it was terrible.

[Assistant] You had so little water, which you had to carry, drop of which you had had to carry up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Washing clothes, it was terrible.

[Assistant] You had so little water, which you had to carry, drop of which you had had to carry up.

[User] And I, you know, my first year I did my own. And then Dodi Majori just said, John, when are you going to stop that? You realize, you know, you give somebody employment here.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And we talked about it and he said, listen, you don't, you can, you don't have to treat them as if you're a servant. You treat them as an employee, that you're employing them, you treat them fair. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. But having, especially because of, you know, being white there. You know, I asked my students one time, am I better than you because of who I am? And they said yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it's so ingrained.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we talked about it and he said, listen, you don't, you can, you don't have to treat them as if you're a servant. You treat them as an employee, that you're employing them, you treat them fair. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. But having, especially because of, you know, being white there. You know, I asked my students one time, am I better than you because of who I am? And they said yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it's so ingrained.

[User] It's so ingrained. So I was so sensitive to that and didn't want, you know, I'm not, you know, people would call me master and do all that. I mean, it was just what they did. Because if South Africans were visiting up in the mountains, that's what they expected.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But the second year I ended up hiring this woman to do my laundry because it was just, it was. What a relief.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Your primary reason for being there was to be a teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's so ingrained. So I was so sensitive to that and didn't want, you know, I'm not, you know, people would call me master and do all that. I mean, it was just what they did. Because if South Africans were visiting up in the mountains, that's what they expected.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But the second year I ended up hiring this woman to do my laundry because it was just, it was. What a relief.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Your primary reason for being there was to be a teacher?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And that to be a good teacher, you need time to prepare and think things through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the second year I ended up hiring this woman to do my laundry because it was just, it was. What a relief.

[Assistant] Oh, sure. Your primary reason for being there was to be a teacher?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And that to be a good teacher, you need time to prepare and think things through.

[User] Right. And, you know, so that turned out fine. It turned out wonderful.

[Assistant] Good. Let's go into a classroom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And that to be a good teacher, you need time to prepare and think things through.

[User] Right. And, you know, so that turned out fine. It turned out wonderful.

[Assistant] Good. Let's go into a classroom.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] For the two years you taught in that same school the whole time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And, you know, so that turned out fine. It turned out wonderful.

[Assistant] Good. Let's go into a classroom.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] For the two years you taught in that same school the whole time?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Okay. What was the name of the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Okay. What was the name of the school?

[User] It was Saint John the Baptist Catholic Mission.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Marakabei. That's the village it was in. Saint John the Baptist.

[Assistant] When you see me writing things down, it's because later on I'm going to ask you how to spell them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So at the time, actually there was form A, B, C, and D. So ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th grade. Form A was ninth grade. Students were supposed to take an exam to get into ninth grade. And then after their sophomore year, they took another exam to go up to senior second, to go to junior and senior year. Well, this is a small, a small mountain school. So many of the kids coming in, their English was terrible because they were out in these primary schools.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] They didn't have teachers that really knew English to teach. They'd come in, but all of a sudden, the curriculum is all in English. And as a matter of fact, after that second year, the exam that you took was marked down in the capital city. And then the one that was done at the end of your senior year, and I was in. The British system has ordinary levels and advanced levels.

[Assistant] A-levels, yeah.

[User] So my school is only an ordinary.

[Assistant] If somebody wanted to go for the A-level, they would have to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't have teachers that really knew English to teach. They'd come in, but all of a sudden, the curriculum is all in English. And as a matter of fact, after that second year, the exam that you took was marked down in the capital city. And then the one that was done at the end of your senior year, and I was in. The British system has ordinary levels and advanced levels.

[Assistant] A-levels, yeah.

[User] So my school is only an ordinary.

[Assistant] If somebody wanted to go for the A-level, they would have to?

[User] Go someplace else.

[Assistant] Go someplace else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they had to pass this test at the ordinary level. And at that time those tests were taken and then they were sent back to England.

[Assistant] England.

[User] For marking. In the history of the school, there had never been anybody that passed O-levels.

[Assistant] Nobody?

[User] Nobody.

[Assistant] Oh, how discouraging.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it was just, well, it was where they were coming from. It's just such a poor base.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that leads me to the story. Let me come back to the minute. My first encounter in the classroom, I walked into an A-level math class.

[Assistant] An A-level?

[User] Yeah. For freshman year.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. We're not talking about the A-level exams. We're talking about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. For freshman year.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. We're not talking about the A-level exams. We're talking about.

[User] The A-level.

[Assistant] Form A

[User] Form A. 110 kids.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The A-level.

[Assistant] Form A

[User] Form A. 110 kids.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh.

[User] In a classroom probably as big as this room.

[Assistant] Which is smaller than a standard classroom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Form A. 110 kids.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh.

[User] In a classroom probably as big as this room.

[Assistant] Which is smaller than a standard classroom.

[User] It was 110 kids all on the floor.

[Assistant] On the floor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In a classroom probably as big as this room.

[Assistant] Which is smaller than a standard classroom.

[User] It was 110 kids all on the floor.

[Assistant] On the floor?

[User] Sitting on the floor.

[Assistant] There weren't desks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was 110 kids all on the floor.

[Assistant] On the floor?

[User] Sitting on the floor.

[Assistant] There weren't desks?

[User] There's desks, not for the A-level, because there's too many kids. When I got to, um, to the higher level, I was actually ended up being the class teacher. I only had 15 students. So that was wonderful.

[Assistant] But that shows about the attrition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sitting on the floor.

[Assistant] There weren't desks?

[User] There's desks, not for the A-level, because there's too many kids. When I got to, um, to the higher level, I was actually ended up being the class teacher. I only had 15 students. So that was wonderful.

[Assistant] But that shows about the attrition.

[User] Yeah, the attrition was just incredible.

[Assistant] Kids didn't make it through to those higher levels.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's desks, not for the A-level, because there's too many kids. When I got to, um, to the higher level, I was actually ended up being the class teacher. I only had 15 students. So that was wonderful.

[Assistant] But that shows about the attrition.

[User] Yeah, the attrition was just incredible.

[Assistant] Kids didn't make it through to those higher levels.

[User] So I just, and kind of my, kind of one of the things that I do when I teach is I like to walk around and be able to.

[Assistant] Well, how could you? There's no aisles.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the attrition was just incredible.

[Assistant] Kids didn't make it through to those higher levels.

[User] So I just, and kind of my, kind of one of the things that I do when I teach is I like to walk around and be able to.

[Assistant] Well, how could you? There's no aisles.

[User] And the students are very, very trained that the teacher goes up, writes everything on the board, sits down, and then, and then the students copy it. And I, that was, I wasn't going to teach that way. I ended up doing more of it at the form A level because it was so hard to do anything else with a hundred. And just the noise was just incredible. At that higher level, I could do more.

[Assistant] And you were teaching math and science?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the students are very, very trained that the teacher goes up, writes everything on the board, sits down, and then, and then the students copy it. And I, that was, I wasn't going to teach that way. I ended up doing more of it at the form A level because it was so hard to do anything else with a hundred. And just the noise was just incredible. At that higher level, I could do more.

[Assistant] And you were teaching math and science?

[User] Math and science. I ended up teaching English. I ended up teaching, tried to teach religion, that's all another story.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I taught geography, human and social biology, and math. Um, chemistry. And then they switched my second year from human and social biology to physics, which was just another horrible thing in terms of preparation for those students and what they didn't have in terms of background. So as an incredible, that was my first experience. You know, corporal punishment.

[Assistant] Were you expected to mete out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught geography, human and social biology, and math. Um, chemistry. And then they switched my second year from human and social biology to physics, which was just another horrible thing in terms of preparation for those students and what they didn't have in terms of background. So as an incredible, that was my first experience. You know, corporal punishment.

[Assistant] Were you expected to mete out?

[User] Oh, yeah, I was.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] I, I. When they did that one time, I went in to the headmaster and said, I think that's totally inappropriate. I will not do this. And so they would do it behind my back.

[Assistant] Okay. So you would report a student who.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would get whipped with a plastic that they called it a shambock, a plastic whip.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] You talk about hurt.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Yeah. And there was a lot of improprieties in the school with teachers and students and things like that. And you just kind of, you just said, jeez, what do I do about this? I've got to teach my things. And, you know, I don't know. They learned also not to show me things because they knew my reaction, what my reaction would be. So I lived with that. Not my good, my good friends, we talked about it. Ntate Motjoli and Me Ma Motjoli, both teachers. We talked a lot about it and said it's such a horrible situation.

[Assistant] Now, these people you just mentioned, they're the, um?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You talk about hurt.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Yeah. And there was a lot of improprieties in the school with teachers and students and things like that. And you just kind of, you just said, jeez, what do I do about this? I've got to teach my things. And, you know, I don't know. They learned also not to show me things because they knew my reaction, what my reaction would be. So I lived with that. Not my good, my good friends, we talked about it. Ntate Motjoli and Me Ma Motjoli, both teachers. We talked a lot about it and said it's such a horrible situation.

[Assistant] Now, these people you just mentioned, they're the, um?

[User] They were Lesotho and they were teachers.

[Assistant] Lesotho people, okay. What were their names again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were Lesotho and they were teachers.

[Assistant] Lesotho people, okay. What were their names again?

[User] M. M-O-T-J-O-L-I. And L-I is pronounced like a D. So Motjoli is the name, was their name. And one of them is Ntate means like father, but that's N-T-A-T-E. Ntate. And then Me, which is just M-E, is, is for, like a woman.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So it's a respectful way to say, so Ntate Motjoli and Me Ma Motjoli. And Ma is like a mother. Me Ma Motjoli. They were good friends. And then Guy Amar, also, who is a Sri Lankan, became a very good friend. And then my second year, and actually another American, he wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. He was an Oblate volunteer, a Catholic volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I've heard of Maryknoll volunteers but there's some difference here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] M. M-O-T-J-O-L-I. And L-I is pronounced like a D. So Motjoli is the name, was their name. And one of them is Ntate means like father, but that's N-T-A-T-E. Ntate. And then Me, which is just M-E, is, is for, like a woman.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So it's a respectful way to say, so Ntate Motjoli and Me Ma Motjoli. And Ma is like a mother. Me Ma Motjoli. They were good friends. And then Guy Amar, also, who is a Sri Lankan, became a very good friend. And then my second year, and actually another American, he wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. He was an Oblate volunteer, a Catholic volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I've heard of Maryknoll volunteers but there's some difference here.

[User] Yeah, he was an Oblate volunteer. Joe D'Andrea, still a very good friend today. He lives in Boston, teaches philosophy at a small college in Boston. Wonderful guy. Just wonderful guy. And then there was a South African, a woman who wanted to get out of apartheid and came up to the mountains. And I learned so much about South Africa. And she was from Cape Town.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And she was as against apartheid as you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it's a respectful way to say, so Ntate Motjoli and Me Ma Motjoli. And Ma is like a mother. Me Ma Motjoli. They were good friends. And then Guy Amar, also, who is a Sri Lankan, became a very good friend. And then my second year, and actually another American, he wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. He was an Oblate volunteer, a Catholic volunteer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I've heard of Maryknoll volunteers but there's some difference here.

[User] Yeah, he was an Oblate volunteer. Joe D'Andrea, still a very good friend today. He lives in Boston, teaches philosophy at a small college in Boston. Wonderful guy. Just wonderful guy. And then there was a South African, a woman who wanted to get out of apartheid and came up to the mountains. And I learned so much about South Africa. And she was from Cape Town.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And she was as against apartheid as you were?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, how refreshing to know that it's not a monoculture there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, how refreshing to know that it's not a monoculture there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So.

[Assistant] But you're the only Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So.

[Assistant] But you're the only Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] I was the only Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] For the whole two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So.

[Assistant] But you're the only Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] I was the only Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] For the whole two years?

[User] Yes. Yeah. There wasn't another Peace Corps volunteer. There was another volunteer about an hour and a half away by motorcycle. Walking it would have been down in the valley, a long walk. And we did walk it actually.

[Assistant] So your first experience was stepping into a classroom with 110 kids. Were they the same age that we would expect ninth graders to be? Or were they older?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were both, many of them were older.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because they sent out herd boys, you know, the tending the cattle or the sheep.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The girls had to stay at home and do things.

[Assistant] So this was both boys and girls?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they sent out herd boys, you know, the tending the cattle or the sheep.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The girls had to stay at home and do things.

[Assistant] So this was both boys and girls?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. So they're bigger bodies. They're not the bodies of a 13 year old.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The girls had to stay at home and do things.

[Assistant] So this was both boys and girls?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. So they're bigger bodies. They're not the bodies of a 13 year old.

[User] Well, you may have smaller ones.

[Assistant] Yeah. You've got some, you've got a mixture. They're all crammed together, sitting on the floor. Did you ever have, did the school ever supply textbooks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. So they're bigger bodies. They're not the bodies of a 13 year old.

[User] Well, you may have smaller ones.

[Assistant] Yeah. You've got some, you've got a mixture. They're all crammed together, sitting on the floor. Did you ever have, did the school ever supply textbooks?

[User] Um, no. Well, we had some textbooks, but not nearly, not for everybody.

[Assistant] Not, not enough for everybody to have a book.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, no. Well, we had some textbooks, but not nearly, not for everybody.

[Assistant] Not, not enough for everybody to have a book.

[User] At that level. When I was in my, my upper level, they would have a science book.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Some of the books I got, actually, one of my secondary projects was helping to build a library.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that level. When I was in my, my upper level, they would have a science book.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Some of the books I got, actually, one of my secondary projects was helping to build a library.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Yeah.

[User] So got some books for the library and got some science equipment, but not very much.

[Assistant] How difficult to have to prepare people or to try to prepare people to pass an exam which is going to be in English when you don't, when the students don't even have textbooks written in English. That's, that's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of the books I got, actually, one of my secondary projects was helping to build a library.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Yeah.

[User] So got some books for the library and got some science equipment, but not very much.

[Assistant] How difficult to have to prepare people or to try to prepare people to pass an exam which is going to be in English when you don't, when the students don't even have textbooks written in English. That's, that's.

[User] Well, and that's why.

[Assistant] It's so self-defeating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So got some books for the library and got some science equipment, but not very much.

[Assistant] How difficult to have to prepare people or to try to prepare people to pass an exam which is going to be in English when you don't, when the students don't even have textbooks written in English. That's, that's.

[User] Well, and that's why.

[Assistant] It's so self-defeating.

[User] This. I'll tell this story because it is, it's probably, I'm most proud of it. It just kind of makes me kind of cry in some ways too. It's probably the best thing I ever did in being as a Peace Corps volunteer was not teaching anything. It was getting a student out of our school into the school in Roma, which caused tremendous problems. Matter of fact, the priest of the mission never talked to me again. He would pass me on the road when I was hitchhiking, trying to get out of the mountains because he was so.

[Assistant] Because you had arranged for one of his students to go to school where he could actually learn.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This. I'll tell this story because it is, it's probably, I'm most proud of it. It just kind of makes me kind of cry in some ways too. It's probably the best thing I ever did in being as a Peace Corps volunteer was not teaching anything. It was getting a student out of our school into the school in Roma, which caused tremendous problems. Matter of fact, the priest of the mission never talked to me again. He would pass me on the road when I was hitchhiking, trying to get out of the mountains because he was so.

[Assistant] Because you had arranged for one of his students to go to school where he could actually learn.

[User] It was the potential for him being the first student to ever pass the O-exam. But Morosi Moshoeshoe was his name. Moshoeshoe is a, is actually a, uh, and it's M-O.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] M-O-shoe-shoe. But that was, that's very royal. The kings of Lesotho are Moshoeshoes. So Morosi Moshoeshoe had some relative. But he was from way up in the mountains. He came in to me and he said, Ntate John, can you talk to me? Can you tell me what?

[Assistant] Oh, so that Ntate was applied to you too?