[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. The six-by-six-foot wind tunnel was started late in the war, and I worked on that. There came a period in the late forties where I felt that things were just kind of drifting along. The jobs weren’t very interesting. I think you ought to be careful about my saying that, because I was not on the research side of the house. The people on the research side of the house may have felt, “We’ve finally got the equipment we need, and we’re able to do the work we always really wanted to do.”\n\n Well, I had been in the business of providing new equipment for people, and when the war was over, they said, “Well, we don’t need anything new for a while,” and so things slowed down to, “Well, can we make this a little better? Can we make that a little better?” And there were no big construction projects.

[Assistant] Did you work at all on deactivating any wind tunnels or making changes to certain wind tunnels?

[User] Deactivating, did you say?

[Assistant] Yes. Did you help out with deactivating or closing down any wind tunnels?

[User] No. I don’t know of any that were—well at least under NACA, I don’t know any that were deactivated at that time.

[Assistant] What about making any changes to any wind tunnels?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deactivating, did you say?

[Assistant] Yes. Did you help out with deactivating or closing down any wind tunnels?

[User] No. I don’t know of any that were—well at least under NACA, I don’t know any that were deactivated at that time.

[Assistant] What about making any changes to any wind tunnels?

[User] Yes, a lot of changes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about some of the changes that you helped [with]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I don’t know of any that were—well at least under NACA, I don’t know any that were deactivated at that time.

[Assistant] What about making any changes to any wind tunnels?

[User] Yes, a lot of changes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about some of the changes that you helped [with]?

[User] Well, there were a lot of variable-frequency motor generator sets put in. The wind tunnel models used to have in them motors to drive the propellers in the model, and they had to be very small. They were water-cooled, because you want to get a lot of horsepower output in a small volume. And then you got speed control of the propellers by feeding them with electrical power that was adjustable frequency, from zero to 150 cycles in some cases, zero to 400 cycles in other cases. There was installation of that equipment in a number of wind tunnels that I worked on, forty-by-eighty and the six-by-six wind tunnel. I think that’s all.

[Assistant] What was the impact of the use of jet engines on your position at NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a lot of changes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about some of the changes that you helped [with]?

[User] Well, there were a lot of variable-frequency motor generator sets put in. The wind tunnel models used to have in them motors to drive the propellers in the model, and they had to be very small. They were water-cooled, because you want to get a lot of horsepower output in a small volume. And then you got speed control of the propellers by feeding them with electrical power that was adjustable frequency, from zero to 150 cycles in some cases, zero to 400 cycles in other cases. There was installation of that equipment in a number of wind tunnels that I worked on, forty-by-eighty and the six-by-six wind tunnel. I think that’s all.

[Assistant] What was the impact of the use of jet engines on your position at NACA?

[User] Well, little or none, I’d say, I guess, in the sense that when I was first there they kept buying more and more of these motors to put into models, and they quit buying those, although they were used to drive air compressors in models to simulate the jet in a model. But little effect on the things I did.

[Assistant] What about the use of supersonic aircraft? Did that have any sort of influence on your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were a lot of variable-frequency motor generator sets put in. The wind tunnel models used to have in them motors to drive the propellers in the model, and they had to be very small. They were water-cooled, because you want to get a lot of horsepower output in a small volume. And then you got speed control of the propellers by feeding them with electrical power that was adjustable frequency, from zero to 150 cycles in some cases, zero to 400 cycles in other cases. There was installation of that equipment in a number of wind tunnels that I worked on, forty-by-eighty and the six-by-six wind tunnel. I think that’s all.

[Assistant] What was the impact of the use of jet engines on your position at NACA?

[User] Well, little or none, I’d say, I guess, in the sense that when I was first there they kept buying more and more of these motors to put into models, and they quit buying those, although they were used to drive air compressors in models to simulate the jet in a model. But little effect on the things I did.

[Assistant] What about the use of supersonic aircraft? Did that have any sort of influence on your career?

[User] Well, only in the sense that I was working on new kinds of wind tunnels, supersonic wind tunnels. In general, in the older wind tunnels the speed of the drive motors went through a continuous range, from zero to top speed, while in the supersonic wind tunnels, they were driven by compressors within the speed being set by an adjustable throat in the wind tunnel.

[Assistant] While you were working for NACA, did you frequently give presentations or write papers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, little or none, I’d say, I guess, in the sense that when I was first there they kept buying more and more of these motors to put into models, and they quit buying those, although they were used to drive air compressors in models to simulate the jet in a model. But little effect on the things I did.

[Assistant] What about the use of supersonic aircraft? Did that have any sort of influence on your career?

[User] Well, only in the sense that I was working on new kinds of wind tunnels, supersonic wind tunnels. In general, in the older wind tunnels the speed of the drive motors went through a continuous range, from zero to top speed, while in the supersonic wind tunnels, they were driven by compressors within the speed being set by an adjustable throat in the wind tunnel.

[Assistant] While you were working for NACA, did you frequently give presentations or write papers?

[User] Under NACA, not at all.

[Assistant] Was that common for electrical engineers working for NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, only in the sense that I was working on new kinds of wind tunnels, supersonic wind tunnels. In general, in the older wind tunnels the speed of the drive motors went through a continuous range, from zero to top speed, while in the supersonic wind tunnels, they were driven by compressors within the speed being set by an adjustable throat in the wind tunnel.

[Assistant] While you were working for NACA, did you frequently give presentations or write papers?

[User] Under NACA, not at all.

[Assistant] Was that common for electrical engineers working for NACA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of professional organizations while you were working out at the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Under NACA, not at all.

[Assistant] Was that common for electrical engineers working for NACA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of professional organizations while you were working out at the Center?

[User] On the NACA, I had joined what’s now IEEE [Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers] in college, and that organization has a nice advantage of when you reach a combination of age and length of membership reaches, I don’t know, eighty or something like that, you’re home free. No more dues. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s excellent. Were you encouraged by your Branch Chief or anyone else at NACA to join professional organizations and to go to conferences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of professional organizations while you were working out at the Center?

[User] On the NACA, I had joined what’s now IEEE [Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers] in college, and that organization has a nice advantage of when you reach a combination of age and length of membership reaches, I don’t know, eighty or something like that, you’re home free. No more dues. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s excellent. Were you encouraged by your Branch Chief or anyone else at NACA to join professional organizations and to go to conferences?

[User] No, no strong pressure. I think encouraged is okay; that is an okay, word, but there was no strong pressure.

[Assistant] Do you recall if NACA paid your dues, or did you have to pay your dues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the NACA, I had joined what’s now IEEE [Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers] in college, and that organization has a nice advantage of when you reach a combination of age and length of membership reaches, I don’t know, eighty or something like that, you’re home free. No more dues. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That’s excellent. Were you encouraged by your Branch Chief or anyone else at NACA to join professional organizations and to go to conferences?

[User] No, no strong pressure. I think encouraged is okay; that is an okay, word, but there was no strong pressure.

[Assistant] Do you recall if NACA paid your dues, or did you have to pay your dues?

[User] Oh, I recall they did not. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What impact do you think that Ames has had on the surrounding area of San Jose and some of the universities in the area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no strong pressure. I think encouraged is okay; that is an okay, word, but there was no strong pressure.

[Assistant] Do you recall if NACA paid your dues, or did you have to pay your dues?

[User] Oh, I recall they did not. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What impact do you think that Ames has had on the surrounding area of San Jose and some of the universities in the area?

[User] Well, certainly one of the criteria in choosing Moffett Field was the fact that Stanford and UC [University of California] Berkeley [Berkeley, California] were in the vicinity. I don’t have a good answer for your question. I don’t think I know.

[Assistant] How did you get around the Laboratory once you were on-site? Did you ride a bicycle to get around the site, or did you walk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I recall they did not. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What impact do you think that Ames has had on the surrounding area of San Jose and some of the universities in the area?

[User] Well, certainly one of the criteria in choosing Moffett Field was the fact that Stanford and UC [University of California] Berkeley [Berkeley, California] were in the vicinity. I don’t have a good answer for your question. I don’t think I know.

[Assistant] How did you get around the Laboratory once you were on-site? Did you ride a bicycle to get around the site, or did you walk?

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes, the Electrical Branch had about six bicycles, which were kept under lock and key so nobody else would take them. Then somebody figured out this elaborate scheme where, when the bicycle got old—they wouldn’t give you a new bicycle, but when the bicycle got old, you could ask that it be condemned, and then you could get a new bicycle. But then somehow or other you fixed up the condemned bicycle, so you got one more that way. Yes, mainly by bicycle. When I was first there, the Electrical Branch had no transportation except bicycles.\n\n Sometime during the war—it was before I got there—they had a barrage balloon. You know what a barrage balloon is? Well, during the war they set up these free balloons with cables dangling from them so an airplane couldn’t fly low. That is to keep out enemy fighters, primarily, or any kind of enemy plane. One of them broke loose—I think it was from Mare Island—and it ended up on the Ames Substation, where it shorted out the buses, I guess. It was before I was there. I guess the engineer in charge said, “Well, look, you guys weren’t really equipped to handle a big emergency like that. I’m going to get you a truck.”

[Assistant] Do you recall when you got that pickup truck? Was that before you came or after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, certainly one of the criteria in choosing Moffett Field was the fact that Stanford and UC [University of California] Berkeley [Berkeley, California] were in the vicinity. I don’t have a good answer for your question. I don’t think I know.

[Assistant] How did you get around the Laboratory once you were on-site? Did you ride a bicycle to get around the site, or did you walk?

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes, the Electrical Branch had about six bicycles, which were kept under lock and key so nobody else would take them. Then somebody figured out this elaborate scheme where, when the bicycle got old—they wouldn’t give you a new bicycle, but when the bicycle got old, you could ask that it be condemned, and then you could get a new bicycle. But then somehow or other you fixed up the condemned bicycle, so you got one more that way. Yes, mainly by bicycle. When I was first there, the Electrical Branch had no transportation except bicycles.\n\n Sometime during the war—it was before I got there—they had a barrage balloon. You know what a barrage balloon is? Well, during the war they set up these free balloons with cables dangling from them so an airplane couldn’t fly low. That is to keep out enemy fighters, primarily, or any kind of enemy plane. One of them broke loose—I think it was from Mare Island—and it ended up on the Ames Substation, where it shorted out the buses, I guess. It was before I was there. I guess the engineer in charge said, “Well, look, you guys weren’t really equipped to handle a big emergency like that. I’m going to get you a truck.”

[Assistant] Do you recall when you got that pickup truck? Was that before you came or after?

[User] Afterwards. Took about a year to get the truck, I would guess.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any organizations that were active at Ames?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Oh yes, the Electrical Branch had about six bicycles, which were kept under lock and key so nobody else would take them. Then somebody figured out this elaborate scheme where, when the bicycle got old—they wouldn’t give you a new bicycle, but when the bicycle got old, you could ask that it be condemned, and then you could get a new bicycle. But then somehow or other you fixed up the condemned bicycle, so you got one more that way. Yes, mainly by bicycle. When I was first there, the Electrical Branch had no transportation except bicycles.\n\n Sometime during the war—it was before I got there—they had a barrage balloon. You know what a barrage balloon is? Well, during the war they set up these free balloons with cables dangling from them so an airplane couldn’t fly low. That is to keep out enemy fighters, primarily, or any kind of enemy plane. One of them broke loose—I think it was from Mare Island—and it ended up on the Ames Substation, where it shorted out the buses, I guess. It was before I was there. I guess the engineer in charge said, “Well, look, you guys weren’t really equipped to handle a big emergency like that. I’m going to get you a truck.”

[Assistant] Do you recall when you got that pickup truck? Was that before you came or after?

[User] Afterwards. Took about a year to get the truck, I would guess.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any organizations that were active at Ames?

[User] No. Well, I guess so, in the sense that in the first ten years or so, fifteen, maybe, the Electrical Branch had a softball team, and everybody under the age of thirty played on the softball team. Everybody had to, because that was the only way you could field a team.

[Assistant] So did the other branches then have their own softball teams as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Afterwards. Took about a year to get the truck, I would guess.

[Assistant] Did you belong to any organizations that were active at Ames?

[User] No. Well, I guess so, in the sense that in the first ten years or so, fifteen, maybe, the Electrical Branch had a softball team, and everybody under the age of thirty played on the softball team. Everybody had to, because that was the only way you could field a team.

[Assistant] So did the other branches then have their own softball teams as well?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall how well the Electrical Branch did in competitions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, I guess so, in the sense that in the first ten years or so, fifteen, maybe, the Electrical Branch had a softball team, and everybody under the age of thirty played on the softball team. Everybody had to, because that was the only way you could field a team.

[Assistant] So did the other branches then have their own softball teams as well?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall how well the Electrical Branch did in competitions?

[User] Not really, no.

[Assistant] Were there any sort of dances or social activities that were sponsored by Ames that you attended?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall how well the Electrical Branch did in competitions?

[User] Not really, no.

[Assistant] Were there any sort of dances or social activities that were sponsored by Ames that you attended?

[User] Not very many. Now, what I’m going to tell you is hearsay, but it’s probably so. At Langley [Aeronautical Laboratory, Hampton, Virginia], you know, they were kind of isolated there. There was no large cities in the vicinity, and so that there were a lot of dances and amateur theatricals. In fact, I believe they even had a symphony orchestra there. So when the hierarchy of Ames came out from Langley, they attempted to start things like that here, and my impression was that people here were used to going to San Francisco [California] for the theater and the symphony and things like that, and that they didn’t need that bush-league, amateur theatricals and things like that. There were some dances, but it is my impression that the management tried to foster things like that, and they really fell kind of flat because people out here didn’t feel they needed them.

[Assistant] Speaking of Langley, did you ever do any work with individuals who worked at Langley while you were working on projects at Ames?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, no.

[Assistant] Were there any sort of dances or social activities that were sponsored by Ames that you attended?

[User] Not very many. Now, what I’m going to tell you is hearsay, but it’s probably so. At Langley [Aeronautical Laboratory, Hampton, Virginia], you know, they were kind of isolated there. There was no large cities in the vicinity, and so that there were a lot of dances and amateur theatricals. In fact, I believe they even had a symphony orchestra there. So when the hierarchy of Ames came out from Langley, they attempted to start things like that here, and my impression was that people here were used to going to San Francisco [California] for the theater and the symphony and things like that, and that they didn’t need that bush-league, amateur theatricals and things like that. There were some dances, but it is my impression that the management tried to foster things like that, and they really fell kind of flat because people out here didn’t feel they needed them.

[Assistant] Speaking of Langley, did you ever do any work with individuals who worked at Langley while you were working on projects at Ames?

[User] Not under NACA, no, I did not. Under NASA, yes, but not under NACA.

[Assistant] Did you ever do any work with any of the universities near Ames?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very many. Now, what I’m going to tell you is hearsay, but it’s probably so. At Langley [Aeronautical Laboratory, Hampton, Virginia], you know, they were kind of isolated there. There was no large cities in the vicinity, and so that there were a lot of dances and amateur theatricals. In fact, I believe they even had a symphony orchestra there. So when the hierarchy of Ames came out from Langley, they attempted to start things like that here, and my impression was that people here were used to going to San Francisco [California] for the theater and the symphony and things like that, and that they didn’t need that bush-league, amateur theatricals and things like that. There were some dances, but it is my impression that the management tried to foster things like that, and they really fell kind of flat because people out here didn’t feel they needed them.

[Assistant] Speaking of Langley, did you ever do any work with individuals who worked at Langley while you were working on projects at Ames?

[User] Not under NACA, no, I did not. Under NASA, yes, but not under NACA.

[Assistant] Did you ever do any work with any of the universities near Ames?

[User] No. I took some courses at Stanford, but nothing work-related. I mean, the courses were, of course, work-related, but only taking courses there, and I can’t even remember—that’s one of those places where I can’t draw the NACA/NASA line.

[Assistant] What impact do you think that the Korean War had on NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not under NACA, no, I did not. Under NASA, yes, but not under NACA.

[Assistant] Did you ever do any work with any of the universities near Ames?

[User] No. I took some courses at Stanford, but nothing work-related. I mean, the courses were, of course, work-related, but only taking courses there, and I can’t even remember—that’s one of those places where I can’t draw the NACA/NASA line.

[Assistant] What impact do you think that the Korean War had on NACA?

[User] I didn’t see any impact. Now, other people may have and that’s quite possible. The only impact I saw was the threat of recalling to service or drafting of some of the people who were working for me at the time. NACA was always successfully able to defend those people against the draft and against recall, but that’s the only thing I remember about the Korean War.

[Assistant] By that time, what position were you at NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I took some courses at Stanford, but nothing work-related. I mean, the courses were, of course, work-related, but only taking courses there, and I can’t even remember—that’s one of those places where I can’t draw the NACA/NASA line.

[Assistant] What impact do you think that the Korean War had on NACA?

[User] I didn’t see any impact. Now, other people may have and that’s quite possible. The only impact I saw was the threat of recalling to service or drafting of some of the people who were working for me at the time. NACA was always successfully able to defend those people against the draft and against recall, but that’s the only thing I remember about the Korean War.

[Assistant] By that time, what position were you at NACA?

[User] I was what’s called Section Head of the Electrical Engineering Section. Sometime, I can’t remember when, maybe 1950 or something like that, the Electrical Branch was split into two sections, and there was a branch organization which was just the Branch Chief and, I guess, two assistants, and then there were Engineer Section and an Electrician Section, and I was head of the Engineer Section.

[Assistant] Do you recall why that branch was split into two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t see any impact. Now, other people may have and that’s quite possible. The only impact I saw was the threat of recalling to service or drafting of some of the people who were working for me at the time. NACA was always successfully able to defend those people against the draft and against recall, but that’s the only thing I remember about the Korean War.

[Assistant] By that time, what position were you at NACA?

[User] I was what’s called Section Head of the Electrical Engineering Section. Sometime, I can’t remember when, maybe 1950 or something like that, the Electrical Branch was split into two sections, and there was a branch organization which was just the Branch Chief and, I guess, two assistants, and then there were Engineer Section and an Electrician Section, and I was head of the Engineer Section.

[Assistant] Do you recall why that branch was split into two?

[User] No. It’s not that I don’t recall. I don’t think I ever really [knew]. I suspect that it was some sort of political move that they could give more prestige to the organization and get better pay for everybody.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could talk about the transition from NACA to NASA that occurred in ’58.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was what’s called Section Head of the Electrical Engineering Section. Sometime, I can’t remember when, maybe 1950 or something like that, the Electrical Branch was split into two sections, and there was a branch organization which was just the Branch Chief and, I guess, two assistants, and then there were Engineer Section and an Electrician Section, and I was head of the Engineer Section.

[Assistant] Do you recall why that branch was split into two?

[User] No. It’s not that I don’t recall. I don’t think I ever really [knew]. I suspect that it was some sort of political move that they could give more prestige to the organization and get better pay for everybody.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could talk about the transition from NACA to NASA that occurred in ’58.

[User] I don’t recall any great transition in ’58 except, I guess, Jim [James E.] Webb was coming out, and they had to get the sign. They had to be sure they had the NACA signs off of all the buildings and got NASA signs up. And, in fact, the front of the Administration Building had, cast in concrete, “Ames Aeronautical Laboratory” on it, and they had to get a jackhammer and dig that out and put “Ames Research Center” [Moffett Field] out there. That was done in a hurry because everybody thought, “Well, we’ll do that in good time,” but James Webb was coming out, and they wanted it done before he got there.\n\n I don’t recall any big instant transformation. Activities began to expand. There were more people. I got the opportunity to move into flight simulation, which was a great opportunity for me.

[Assistant] Were there any members of Ames who were not happy with the move from NACA to NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It’s not that I don’t recall. I don’t think I ever really [knew]. I suspect that it was some sort of political move that they could give more prestige to the organization and get better pay for everybody.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could talk about the transition from NACA to NASA that occurred in ’58.

[User] I don’t recall any great transition in ’58 except, I guess, Jim [James E.] Webb was coming out, and they had to get the sign. They had to be sure they had the NACA signs off of all the buildings and got NASA signs up. And, in fact, the front of the Administration Building had, cast in concrete, “Ames Aeronautical Laboratory” on it, and they had to get a jackhammer and dig that out and put “Ames Research Center” [Moffett Field] out there. That was done in a hurry because everybody thought, “Well, we’ll do that in good time,” but James Webb was coming out, and they wanted it done before he got there.\n\n I don’t recall any big instant transformation. Activities began to expand. There were more people. I got the opportunity to move into flight simulation, which was a great opportunity for me.

[Assistant] Were there any members of Ames who were not happy with the move from NACA to NASA?

[User] Well, I can remember Smith J. DeFrance, who was Engineer in Charge under NACA and the Center Director under NASA, I remember him saying, “Well, I could have done the same thing and not changed the name; changed the act. We could have done all this under the old legislation.” I’m sure he lost a lot of independence, and, well, I’m also sure that he’d worked there long enough so he was reluctant to make any changes. As long as he was the boss, why would you want to change anything? [Laughs]

[Assistant] How do you think that the work environment changed, if at all, when you started working for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall any great transition in ’58 except, I guess, Jim [James E.] Webb was coming out, and they had to get the sign. They had to be sure they had the NACA signs off of all the buildings and got NASA signs up. And, in fact, the front of the Administration Building had, cast in concrete, “Ames Aeronautical Laboratory” on it, and they had to get a jackhammer and dig that out and put “Ames Research Center” [Moffett Field] out there. That was done in a hurry because everybody thought, “Well, we’ll do that in good time,” but James Webb was coming out, and they wanted it done before he got there.\n\n I don’t recall any big instant transformation. Activities began to expand. There were more people. I got the opportunity to move into flight simulation, which was a great opportunity for me.

[Assistant] Were there any members of Ames who were not happy with the move from NACA to NASA?

[User] Well, I can remember Smith J. DeFrance, who was Engineer in Charge under NACA and the Center Director under NASA, I remember him saying, “Well, I could have done the same thing and not changed the name; changed the act. We could have done all this under the old legislation.” I’m sure he lost a lot of independence, and, well, I’m also sure that he’d worked there long enough so he was reluctant to make any changes. As long as he was the boss, why would you want to change anything? [Laughs]

[Assistant] How do you think that the work environment changed, if at all, when you started working for NASA?

[User] I think, to me and to a number of other people, there were just a lot more opportunities. There was a lot of different kinds of work going on, so that if you had experience and a record of working hard and doing well, that new opportunities were presented to you.

[Assistant] Looking back over your work with NACA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I can remember Smith J. DeFrance, who was Engineer in Charge under NACA and the Center Director under NASA, I remember him saying, “Well, I could have done the same thing and not changed the name; changed the act. We could have done all this under the old legislation.” I’m sure he lost a lot of independence, and, well, I’m also sure that he’d worked there long enough so he was reluctant to make any changes. As long as he was the boss, why would you want to change anything? [Laughs]

[Assistant] How do you think that the work environment changed, if at all, when you started working for NASA?

[User] I think, to me and to a number of other people, there were just a lot more opportunities. There was a lot of different kinds of work going on, so that if you had experience and a record of working hard and doing well, that new opportunities were presented to you.

[Assistant] Looking back over your work with NACA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] I guess I can’t think of any really significant accomplishments there. One thing I think I did after White left and his successor left, the new boss was physically not very well, and I felt like that I kept the electrical end of the operation out there going. Obviously not all by myself, but I felt I was providing as much direction as anybody else to all the electrical work going on.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, to me and to a number of other people, there were just a lot more opportunities. There was a lot of different kinds of work going on, so that if you had experience and a record of working hard and doing well, that new opportunities were presented to you.

[Assistant] Looking back over your work with NACA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] I guess I can’t think of any really significant accomplishments there. One thing I think I did after White left and his successor left, the new boss was physically not very well, and I felt like that I kept the electrical end of the operation out there going. Obviously not all by myself, but I felt I was providing as much direction as anybody else to all the electrical work going on.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NACA?

[User] I think my biggest challenge was doing what I just told you without making it obvious to my boss. [Laughs]

[Assistant] What do you think has been the impact of your work with NACA on aviation research?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I can’t think of any really significant accomplishments there. One thing I think I did after White left and his successor left, the new boss was physically not very well, and I felt like that I kept the electrical end of the operation out there going. Obviously not all by myself, but I felt I was providing as much direction as anybody else to all the electrical work going on.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NACA?

[User] I think my biggest challenge was doing what I just told you without making it obvious to my boss. [Laughs]

[Assistant] What do you think has been the impact of your work with NACA on aviation research?

[User] I’ve never done any aviation research, so I only enabled others to do aviation research.

[Assistant] Would you like to tell us a little bit about your work with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my biggest challenge was doing what I just told you without making it obvious to my boss. [Laughs]

[Assistant] What do you think has been the impact of your work with NACA on aviation research?

[User] I’ve never done any aviation research, so I only enabled others to do aviation research.

[Assistant] Would you like to tell us a little bit about your work with NASA?

[User] Well, I guess it was 1960. They’d been doing some flight simulation work at Ames, and they were about to put in a small centrifuge. In general, work on simulation machinery was expanding, and they wanted me to set up a separate group to handle that. I was asked to be the Branch Chief of that group, so this was a great change in formal responsibility to me and opportunity to do things more the way I wanted to do them. It expanded to more than that. You asked about writing papers. I began to write papers, which I had never done under NACA. I began to meet with people from other NASA Centers. I began to go to international meetings. So there was a great personal change to me.\n\n Were these changes because of the change from NACA to NASA, or were they just the way technology was expanding? That’s a hard line to draw, I guess, but I never saw anybody in the kind of work I had been doing in electrical machinery, I never saw anybody at Ames do things like that under NACA, and I could do that under NASA. Maybe that was time rather than change in organization; but I think it was change in organization.

[Assistant] You mentioned you did work in simulations. What aspect of simulations, specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve never done any aviation research, so I only enabled others to do aviation research.

[Assistant] Would you like to tell us a little bit about your work with NASA?

[User] Well, I guess it was 1960. They’d been doing some flight simulation work at Ames, and they were about to put in a small centrifuge. In general, work on simulation machinery was expanding, and they wanted me to set up a separate group to handle that. I was asked to be the Branch Chief of that group, so this was a great change in formal responsibility to me and opportunity to do things more the way I wanted to do them. It expanded to more than that. You asked about writing papers. I began to write papers, which I had never done under NACA. I began to meet with people from other NASA Centers. I began to go to international meetings. So there was a great personal change to me.\n\n Were these changes because of the change from NACA to NASA, or were they just the way technology was expanding? That’s a hard line to draw, I guess, but I never saw anybody in the kind of work I had been doing in electrical machinery, I never saw anybody at Ames do things like that under NACA, and I could do that under NASA. Maybe that was time rather than change in organization; but I think it was change in organization.

[Assistant] You mentioned you did work in simulations. What aspect of simulations, specifically?

[User] Well, the thing that Ames was primarily good at was motion cues in flight simulation; that is, putting the forces on a pilot, giving him the physical feel of the airplane as opposed to just looking at an instrument panel. We had a lot of machinery to do that, eventually developed a lot of machinery to do that. Then they had really before that had done nothing but an instrument panel, a pilot and an instrument panel and control devices. So the expansion there was to get these motion systems in, get out-the-window visual systems and things like that.

[Assistant] Did you work with any aircraft companies or the military on these simulators?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the thing that Ames was primarily good at was motion cues in flight simulation; that is, putting the forces on a pilot, giving him the physical feel of the airplane as opposed to just looking at an instrument panel. We had a lot of machinery to do that, eventually developed a lot of machinery to do that. Then they had really before that had done nothing but an instrument panel, a pilot and an instrument panel and control devices. So the expansion there was to get these motion systems in, get out-the-window visual systems and things like that.

[Assistant] Did you work with any aircraft companies or the military on these simulators?

[User] Yes. AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics] set up—there was a working group on flight simulation, which included military and NASA and airframe manufacturers, generally. We used to meet twice a year, I guess, and we’d go jumping around the country and look at each other’s facilities, and people would get up and explain what they’re doing. It was a very free interchange of ideas. It was a good group.

[Assistant] How did simulations change over time, from 1960 until you left Ames?

[User] Well, as I said, when I first got there about all they had was a pilot and a joy stick and an instrument panel. By the time I left, they had big motion-producing devices, out-the-window visual systems, and things like this, so much more realistic.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics] set up—there was a working group on flight simulation, which included military and NASA and airframe manufacturers, generally. We used to meet twice a year, I guess, and we’d go jumping around the country and look at each other’s facilities, and people would get up and explain what they’re doing. It was a very free interchange of ideas. It was a good group.

[Assistant] How did simulations change over time, from 1960 until you left Ames?

[User] Well, as I said, when I first got there about all they had was a pilot and a joy stick and an instrument panel. By the time I left, they had big motion-producing devices, out-the-window visual systems, and things like this, so much more realistic.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Well, I think I played an important role in putting together the Simulation Lab. The people who had headed it up before thought of this as a sideline to the mathematical work they were doing, which was perfectly okay; it just grew to the point where you had to put more concentration on it, and the people who headed it up before weren’t interested in doing that kind of work.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I said, when I first got there about all they had was a pilot and a joy stick and an instrument panel. By the time I left, they had big motion-producing devices, out-the-window visual systems, and things like this, so much more realistic.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Well, I think I played an important role in putting together the Simulation Lab. The people who had headed it up before thought of this as a sideline to the mathematical work they were doing, which was perfectly okay; it just grew to the point where you had to put more concentration on it, and the people who headed it up before weren’t interested in doing that kind of work.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NASA?

[User] I think it was putting together that simulation stuff.

[Assistant] And when did you finally leave NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I played an important role in putting together the Simulation Lab. The people who had headed it up before thought of this as a sideline to the mathematical work they were doing, which was perfectly okay; it just grew to the point where you had to put more concentration on it, and the people who headed it up before weren’t interested in doing that kind of work.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge while working for NASA?

[User] I think it was putting together that simulation stuff.

[Assistant] And when did you finally leave NASA?

[User] ’81.

[Assistant] And why did you decide to leave NASA at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I’ve done some work in the first five or six years after I retired. I did some work on contract for Ames, mainly writing instruction books on various things for the forty-by-eighty wind tunnel.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I’m going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions for you.

[User] Why not?

[Assistant] I have a couple. One of them focuses on budgets. Can you share with us how you put together your budget, especially during those first years in NACA, and then how maybe the budget process changed for NASA? And then again, I know NASA had some lean years as well. But just kind of talk to us about how money impacted the work that you did, if it did at all. Did budget increases or decreases affect your projects?

[User] I can remember the last simulator we built. I can’t give you a good general answer. I remember the last simulator we built. We were told, “You’re never going to get the amount of money you need for that. Why don’t you make this compromise now, and we’ll come back later and bring it up to the specifications that you really want.” That’s the only thing that I can really remember where we didn’t get the amount of money we needed.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier about when Jim White took over and gave everyone the instruments that they needed—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Why not?

[Assistant] I have a couple. One of them focuses on budgets. Can you share with us how you put together your budget, especially during those first years in NACA, and then how maybe the budget process changed for NASA? And then again, I know NASA had some lean years as well. But just kind of talk to us about how money impacted the work that you did, if it did at all. Did budget increases or decreases affect your projects?

[User] I can remember the last simulator we built. I can’t give you a good general answer. I remember the last simulator we built. We were told, “You’re never going to get the amount of money you need for that. Why don’t you make this compromise now, and we’ll come back later and bring it up to the specifications that you really want.” That’s the only thing that I can really remember where we didn’t get the amount of money we needed.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier about when Jim White took over and gave everyone the instruments that they needed—

[User] Well, when he was taken over from.

[Assistant] But you got the instruments. You had said that NACA for a while was living through a depression mentality, that you weren’t exactly getting what you needed to do your job. But you saw that change where you got more instruments. When you were in charge of that branch, were you able to get your employees what they needed to do their job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can remember the last simulator we built. I can’t give you a good general answer. I remember the last simulator we built. We were told, “You’re never going to get the amount of money you need for that. Why don’t you make this compromise now, and we’ll come back later and bring it up to the specifications that you really want.” That’s the only thing that I can really remember where we didn’t get the amount of money we needed.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier about when Jim White took over and gave everyone the instruments that they needed—

[User] Well, when he was taken over from.

[Assistant] But you got the instruments. You had said that NACA for a while was living through a depression mentality, that you weren’t exactly getting what you needed to do your job. But you saw that change where you got more instruments. When you were in charge of that branch, were you able to get your employees what they needed to do their job?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] How big was your workforce at the biggest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when he was taken over from.

[Assistant] But you got the instruments. You had said that NACA for a while was living through a depression mentality, that you weren’t exactly getting what you needed to do your job. But you saw that change where you got more instruments. When you were in charge of that branch, were you able to get your employees what they needed to do their job?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] How big was your workforce at the biggest?

[User] About ten.

[Assistant] And you were scattered all over the Research Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] How big was your workforce at the biggest?

[User] About ten.

[Assistant] And you were scattered all over the Research Center?

[User] No, we were all in one group, although we worked all over the Center. You just said something that—I can’t remember what it was. You just said something that put a spark in my head, but—oh, I know. It seemed to me that I guess in the latter days of NASA, that engineers, the electrical engineers—it was probably true in the other branches—that they should have been hiring more clerical help and fewer engineers, that the engineers were doing things that were primarily clerical tasks that could have been passed on to other people, and some of them would have been happier.

[Assistant] Probably. Before we started our interview today, you and I were talking about Mr. White and how we’re not going to be able to interview him. Is there anything you’d like to add, before we finish our interview today with you, about working for him? Any memories or anything that you have of him that you’d like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About ten.

[Assistant] And you were scattered all over the Research Center?

[User] No, we were all in one group, although we worked all over the Center. You just said something that—I can’t remember what it was. You just said something that put a spark in my head, but—oh, I know. It seemed to me that I guess in the latter days of NASA, that engineers, the electrical engineers—it was probably true in the other branches—that they should have been hiring more clerical help and fewer engineers, that the engineers were doing things that were primarily clerical tasks that could have been passed on to other people, and some of them would have been happier.

[Assistant] Probably. Before we started our interview today, you and I were talking about Mr. White and how we’re not going to be able to interview him. Is there anything you’d like to add, before we finish our interview today with you, about working for him? Any memories or anything that you have of him that you’d like to share?

[User] Well, I remember him as a very intelligent and smart person. I guess until I went to work for Hans Mark I think Jim was really the smartest person I ever met, and remembered everything he learned and knew how to use it. He was kind of a conservative person, but I really admired his intellect.

[Assistant] Now, he was one of the people from Langley that had come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were all in one group, although we worked all over the Center. You just said something that—I can’t remember what it was. You just said something that put a spark in my head, but—oh, I know. It seemed to me that I guess in the latter days of NASA, that engineers, the electrical engineers—it was probably true in the other branches—that they should have been hiring more clerical help and fewer engineers, that the engineers were doing things that were primarily clerical tasks that could have been passed on to other people, and some of them would have been happier.

[Assistant] Probably. Before we started our interview today, you and I were talking about Mr. White and how we’re not going to be able to interview him. Is there anything you’d like to add, before we finish our interview today with you, about working for him? Any memories or anything that you have of him that you’d like to share?

[User] Well, I remember him as a very intelligent and smart person. I guess until I went to work for Hans Mark I think Jim was really the smartest person I ever met, and remembered everything he learned and knew how to use it. He was kind of a conservative person, but I really admired his intellect.

[Assistant] Now, he was one of the people from Langley that had come?

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Were there others that you worked under directly that had come from Langley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I remember him as a very intelligent and smart person. I guess until I went to work for Hans Mark I think Jim was really the smartest person I ever met, and remembered everything he learned and knew how to use it. He was kind of a conservative person, but I really admired his intellect.

[Assistant] Now, he was one of the people from Langley that had come?

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Were there others that you worked under directly that had come from Langley?

[User] Well, I can remember one man who was in charge of the Drafting Room. It turned out that on one job I had, I had to spend a lot of time with a draftsman, and here I was, a young engineer who really didn’t know what I was doing, and the guy who was the head of the Drafting Room was a Langley engineer, and he was one of those people who wasn’t your supervisor that you learned a great deal from.

[Assistant] When you first came to work for the NACA, most of the new hire people that you were working with, were they from this area, or did they recruit them from all over the country to come work with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My badge was number 6-0-6, and obviously, some people had left. About five hundred, I would guess. By the time I left, there were about three thousand, although, as the boss used to put it, there were three thousand people come through the gate every morning, but not all of them were NASA employees.

[Assistant] How do you think Ames changed from the time that you arrived until the time that you retired?

[User] I think it was a much more open establishment, open in the sense that individuals had more freedom to pursue their own goals. In general, I think that’s right. It’s obviously much more diverse. It was not just propeller-driven airplanes, and it was not just airplanes, because it involved spacecraft materials and life sciences, so it was a much, much more diverse organization.\n\n You read about what they did yesterday?

[Assistant] About Google? Yes.

[User] There you go.

[Assistant]
That’s fantastic. Do you have any more questions, Rebecca?

No.

Is there anything that you’d like to tell us that we might not know about that we should talk about, about NACA? I’m curious to know, did a President ever come out to NACA, [Harry S.] Truman or [Dwight D.] Eisenhower, while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was a much more open establishment, open in the sense that individuals had more freedom to pursue their own goals. In general, I think that’s right. It’s obviously much more diverse. It was not just propeller-driven airplanes, and it was not just airplanes, because it involved spacecraft materials and life sciences, so it was a much, much more diverse organization.\n\n You read about what they did yesterday?

[Assistant] About Google? Yes.

[User] There you go.

[Assistant]
That’s fantastic. Do you have any more questions, Rebecca?

No.

Is there anything that you’d like to tell us that we might not know about that we should talk about, about NACA? I’m curious to know, did a President ever come out to NACA, [Harry S.] Truman or [Dwight D.] Eisenhower, while you were there?

[User] No. Lyndon [B.] Johnson came out when he was Vice President.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There you go.

[Assistant]
That’s fantastic. Do you have any more questions, Rebecca?

No.

Is there anything that you’d like to tell us that we might not know about that we should talk about, about NACA? I’m curious to know, did a President ever come out to NACA, [Harry S.] Truman or [Dwight D.] Eisenhower, while you were there?

[User] No. Lyndon [B.] Johnson came out when he was Vice President.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?

[User] Well, we did a demonstration on a moving base simulator for him, that is, motion, force-exhibiting simulator for him. And then I was just reading in a biographical note on George Cooper that George Cooper had flown Lyndon Johnson in one of the simulators. I’ve got a job to take one of the tour groups out to Cooper’s Winery tomorrow, so I dug up some biographical information on him, and I noticed that he said, “Lyndon Johnson said he knew how to fly an airplane, but he didn’t. I had to rescue him every time.” [Laughter]\n\n Pat [Thelma Catherine Ryan] Nixon came out one time, but those are the only presidential—well, neither one was president at the time.

[Assistant] You’ve spent a lifetime at Ames. Did you ever think about leaving and moving somewhere else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Lyndon [B.] Johnson came out when he was Vice President.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?

[User] Well, we did a demonstration on a moving base simulator for him, that is, motion, force-exhibiting simulator for him. And then I was just reading in a biographical note on George Cooper that George Cooper had flown Lyndon Johnson in one of the simulators. I’ve got a job to take one of the tour groups out to Cooper’s Winery tomorrow, so I dug up some biographical information on him, and I noticed that he said, “Lyndon Johnson said he knew how to fly an airplane, but he didn’t. I had to rescue him every time.” [Laughter]\n\n Pat [Thelma Catherine Ryan] Nixon came out one time, but those are the only presidential—well, neither one was president at the time.

[Assistant] You’ve spent a lifetime at Ames. Did you ever think about leaving and moving somewhere else?

[User] Yes. Well, about the time I got this job in flight simulation, I felt that, well, as I told you, I felt that my boss wasn’t physically capable of keeping the place going, and that I was doing a great deal of it—the Electrical Branch—and that I wasn’t getting credit for it or getting paid for it, and yes, I started looking around for a job. Fortunately for me, this other opportunity came up about that time.

[Assistant] We thank you for your time this morning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was one of the unexpected benefits. That's exactly right.\n\n Another one that was interesting, too, is the electromagnetic people. I told you about the difference between their customer groups and the engineering groups. Whenever you had some electrical box that you were going to put on the Mir, that you were going to operate, they had a requirement to do what they call EMI testing, electromagnetic interference testing, on the box. The way you go test that is, they have a ground-based system which is an exact replica of the electrical system on the Mir. You go plug it into their system and test it and see how it operates. We don't normally do that.\n\n Our methodology is a little bit different. We have a set of criteria that says you can go test it in our laboratory over here, and if it doesn't exceed a certain level, it's acceptable. So ours is to a criteria to a standard across the United States; theirs is to a specific set of criteria for the Mir. So the science guys were finding it extremely difficult in trying to meet their criteria. Well, one of our guys, particularly a guy named Art Reubens, who is an EMI expert, has since retired, Art worked with our labs over here to design a system that emulated the Mir, set up a criteria there that we could test the boxes here for EMI and the Russians would accept the results of that particular one. So the testing, rather than having to ship the boxes to Russia to be tested, they can be tested here and accepted by the Russians. So that was another one that was very similar to the water transfer.

[Assistant] The evolutions were internal, external, every which way, and I guess international as well.

[User] International as well. That's exactly right.

[Assistant] You've worked for NASA since 1962.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I'm going to make an assumption that on your first job that you would have never thought you'd be ending up talking with the Russians on so many detailed pieces of information and working to put a successful partnership together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] January 2, 1999.

[Assistant] Did you pick that date to give you enough time to finish Shuttle-Mir and all the paperwork associated or that's your time?

[User] The Mir ended up and crossed my mind. Of course, the Mir was a second job for me. Our primary job in our office is to define the requirements for all the Shuttle elements to fly, as well as all the payload. So we had both the systems integration and the cargo integration side of the house in our particular shop. So that's our primary job.\n\n The Mir, to us, we were kind of matrix to Frank as a secondary job. And so, yes, it crossed my mind that the end of the Mir Program was within the time that I was still going to be here before I retired, but the to pick the date was not driven by Mir. Thirty-six years is enough time.

[Assistant] So you're ready to move on and watch others put the Station together?

[User] And watch others go do that. I just hope I get to see the first Station launch before I retire.

[Assistant] We do, too. We thank you for your time. We wish you luck in your next life, but we know that you've got a few months here and I'm sure every day they're going to get all the work out of they can till you're gone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I remember him coming up to me. And, you know, he like put his hand on my shoulder and tears in his eyes. It's like, Be careful over there. And I said it's so, you know, Kazakhstan, it's okay. It's fine. Um, it's not it's not Afghanistan. And like this is in a war zone.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] So there's, you know, lots of those sort of like preconceived notions. And I think to some degree, maybe I had some of that. Like, I mean, I had this sense like, OK, it's not it's not as like. I can't make that broad of a generalization about Kazakhstan, and that means something specific. But my sense is just like I don't really know anything about it, you know, so Peace Corps send some materials and it was kind of reading through that. And so that was kind of my first exposure to a lot of the culture and history of Central Asia at the time. Yeah. Before up until then, other than like a random geography quiz, I suppose, in high school.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So again, that's sort of just feeling of of curiosity and exploration. And just that was piqued.

[Assistant] Right. So what was your reaction once you were invited or accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, even coming back to visit for I think I came back for a week or two. Um, the summer after my first year of service. And really all of my friends, except for maybe like one or two, they moved on. They're doing their own things and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and that's kind of how life goes, you know, it's just it's always moving and changing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so I think that was a big realization to me to like really, experience each day for what it is.

[Assistant] Right. What were the reactions of your friends and family when you made your decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so I, I had I had preference at the time. I think that application is different now. But at the time, you could preference a region. So I did preference East Europe, and that's largely because of my heritage, my family, you know, maybe can tell from the name, OK, but they immigrated from what was Austria at the time, Austinite, the Austrian empire at the late 19th century. So they were actually were Texas Czechs. So there's a big Czech community in central Texas, among others, you know, German community and stuff like that. So I really wanted to explore more Slavic cultures, and that's my preference to East Europe. And so getting the invitation to go to Kazakhstan, that was something that I was like kind of agonizing over a little bit like, if I turned it down, what would the next invitation be? Would it be what I preference? What if it's not? What if it's something that's even further removed from what I had imagined? And so I ended up accepting, um, Kazakhstan again, really not knowing anything about it. But the it ended up working out because I ended up being in a Russian village in the northern part of Kazakhstan with the host family for two years. So I still got to I got what I, you know, kind of wanted to get out of it and getting a better sense of Slavic and maybe post-Soviet culture or Soviet culture, even though it's very it's very different, I think, than the Czech experience.

[Assistant] Right, yeah.

[User] So then I was invited to being an English lit major, doomed to a future of graduate work. Oh yeah. I did a I did an English education position. So I was in a little village of twenty five hundred people.

[Assistant] And you taught English?

[User] And taught English to all grades from fifth through eleventh. And I also started some um, some sort of optional elective English courses as well.

[Assistant] Okay. Where and how were you trained to prepare for your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then I was invited to being an English lit major, doomed to a future of graduate work. Oh yeah. I did a I did an English education position. So I was in a little village of twenty five hundred people.

[Assistant] And you taught English?

[User] And taught English to all grades from fifth through eleventh. And I also started some um, some sort of optional elective English courses as well.

[Assistant] Okay. Where and how were you trained to prepare for your assignment?

[User] My training in the sort of nuts and bolts of teaching was during Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. Pre-service training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My training in the sort of nuts and bolts of teaching was during Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah. Pre-service training.

[User] So other than that, my love for English and for literature and I think just my own tendencies to like the technical nature of grammar and poetry of the of the language like was more preparation for me. So I think it was more individual and personal. But the actual training was. Yeah. During our 11 week pre service training before we actually got to the site. And so that was in country. Yeah. So I've never really had any formal teacher training.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And so really what I think I was meant to be was a, um, a native speaking connection. Um, a resource for the local English teacher. Um, bringing some bringing some different perspectives and techniques to teaching, because the system itself, like I think. I think what it felt like is that I was more a catalyst, not necessarily

[Assistant] An expert. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So other than that, my love for English and for literature and I think just my own tendencies to like the technical nature of grammar and poetry of the of the language like was more preparation for me. So I think it was more individual and personal. But the actual training was. Yeah. During our 11 week pre service training before we actually got to the site. And so that was in country. Yeah. So I've never really had any formal teacher training.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And so really what I think I was meant to be was a, um, a native speaking connection. Um, a resource for the local English teacher. Um, bringing some bringing some different perspectives and techniques to teaching, because the system itself, like I think. I think what it felt like is that I was more a catalyst, not necessarily

[Assistant] An expert. Right.

[User] I was I was a catalyst to create some sort of change within the education system, which had largely been defined by the Soviet system, centralized top down rote and learning education model, as opposed to maybe more of the like constructivist scaffolding approaches to education.

[Assistant] Did you learn a language during your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so really what I think I was meant to be was a, um, a native speaking connection. Um, a resource for the local English teacher. Um, bringing some bringing some different perspectives and techniques to teaching, because the system itself, like I think. I think what it felt like is that I was more a catalyst, not necessarily

[Assistant] An expert. Right.

[User] I was I was a catalyst to create some sort of change within the education system, which had largely been defined by the Soviet system, centralized top down rote and learning education model, as opposed to maybe more of the like constructivist scaffolding approaches to education.

[Assistant] Did you learn a language during your training?

[User] Yeah. It's my first exposure. I didn't know any Russian before I went and found out that that was like the language that most people spoke. Other than Kazakh, which was what ethnic Kazaks spoke. But I learned that as well during pre-service training. But because of my I think my background in languages and music, I did pretty well with the language. And it kind of took to it pretty quickly. But I didn't know anything. Like I got to learn the alphabet and a few like words before I left. Yeah, it was it was fun. I still I have lots of fond memories from training just because it was just so many like so many like new and exciting experiences.

[Assistant] Right. And where was the actual training site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was I was a catalyst to create some sort of change within the education system, which had largely been defined by the Soviet system, centralized top down rote and learning education model, as opposed to maybe more of the like constructivist scaffolding approaches to education.

[Assistant] Did you learn a language during your training?

[User] Yeah. It's my first exposure. I didn't know any Russian before I went and found out that that was like the language that most people spoke. Other than Kazakh, which was what ethnic Kazaks spoke. But I learned that as well during pre-service training. But because of my I think my background in languages and music, I did pretty well with the language. And it kind of took to it pretty quickly. But I didn't know anything. Like I got to learn the alphabet and a few like words before I left. Yeah, it was it was fun. I still I have lots of fond memories from training just because it was just so many like so many like new and exciting experiences.

[Assistant] Right. And where was the actual training site?

[User] The training was just outside of Almaty, which is one of the larger cities of Kazakhstan in the south. And we were outside. And some neighboring districts in this town called Esik. E-S-I-K. Well, it's different in Russia. And so what was what was interesting about it is that we were in a village. It was it was a Uighur village.

[Assistant] A what village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uighur. It's an ethnic group.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You know, historically nomadic population kind of coming from the, you know, the ancient Mongols. But they're kind of like it's kind of like a it's kind of like the Kurds. It's a nation without a state, without a state. So a lot of the Uighurs live in western China. And they've been in the news a lot because of the reeducation programs and some of the oppression that's been perpetrated on them by the Chinese government. But there's a huge population of them in Kazakhstan as well.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they have their own kind of language, their own culture and history.

[Assistant] Do you know any of their language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they have their own kind of language, their own culture and history.

[Assistant] Do you know any of their language?

[User] No, I didn't. I didn't get to learn any. I did get to learn one of their traditional instruments, though. So there was a there was a girl in the village that that played and performed. And I thought it would be fun just to kind of pick it up. So I learned I learned a song and I ended up playing it in our sort of like training. Graduation.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it was so fun because most of the volunteers actually lived with Uighur families, especially in our town. And so they all got in and we're dancing and singing along with it. It was, I was really nervous, but yeah.

[Assistant] Did you live with a Uighur family? Did anybody not at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't. I didn't get to learn any. I did get to learn one of their traditional instruments, though. So there was a there was a girl in the village that that played and performed. And I thought it would be fun just to kind of pick it up. So I learned I learned a song and I ended up playing it in our sort of like training. Graduation.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it was so fun because most of the volunteers actually lived with Uighur families, especially in our town. And so they all got in and we're dancing and singing along with it. It was, I was really nervous, but yeah.

[Assistant] Did you live with a Uighur family? Did anybody not at all?

[User] Mm hmm. Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Were they at a central site or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Were they at a central site or so?

[User] Well, we were in because of our cohort was kind of large. I think it was close to 40. No, I mean, maybe 30.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We were in multiple villages around the training site.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice. How did you get from there if you needed to go in to class, or to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were in because of our cohort was kind of large. I think it was close to 40. No, I mean, maybe 30.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We were in multiple villages around the training site.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice. How did you get from there if you needed to go in to class, or to?

[User] I took busses.

[Assistant] You took busses. Okay. And what was the traditional instrument that you played? Oh, you don't remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in multiple villages around the training site.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice. How did you get from there if you needed to go in to class, or to?

[User] I took busses.

[Assistant] You took busses. Okay. And what was the traditional instrument that you played? Oh, you don't remember?

[User] I can't remember. Okay.

[Assistant] Okay, is it stringed or is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took busses.

[Assistant] You took busses. Okay. And what was the traditional instrument that you played? Oh, you don't remember?

[User] I can't remember. Okay.

[Assistant] Okay, is it stringed or is it?

[User] It is stringed. Yeah. There are two strings. I can’t remember the name. I’ll have to look it up.

[Assistant] So you had busses in your country. That's posh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember. Okay.

[Assistant] Okay, is it stringed or is it?

[User] It is stringed. Yeah. There are two strings. I can’t remember the name. I’ll have to look it up.

[Assistant] So you had busses in your country. That's posh.

[User] Oh, yeah. The public transportation is great.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. So did you have to have any kind of transportation? Were you were you were you pre cell phone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is stringed. Yeah. There are two strings. I can’t remember the name. I’ll have to look it up.

[Assistant] So you had busses in your country. That's posh.

[User] Oh, yeah. The public transportation is great.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. So did you have to have any kind of transportation? Were you were you were you pre cell phone?

[User]
We were on the cusp. Yeah. Yeah, 2004 to 2006. So cell phones were becoming more mainstream. And later, when I did get to site, I think probably after six months or so, I did get my own cell phone that I would use whenever I went to went to the town. So in the village, there was no cell phone reception. But it was easy to. It was easy to have just a little a cell phone to coordinate with the other Peace Corps volunteers that were in the city. Yeah, because we had secondary projects going on together, music clubs and language speaking clubs and stuff like that.

So, yeah, that was that was. It's funny. We joke like, you know, some of the connecting with some of the other RPCVs. So talking about like if you have a cell phone, it's not Peace Corps, it’s Posh Corps.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So did you. So back to one of my questions. Did you have a bike or were you entirely reliant on public transport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. The public transportation is great.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. So did you have to have any kind of transportation? Were you were you were you pre cell phone?

[User]
We were on the cusp. Yeah. Yeah, 2004 to 2006. So cell phones were becoming more mainstream. And later, when I did get to site, I think probably after six months or so, I did get my own cell phone that I would use whenever I went to went to the town. So in the village, there was no cell phone reception. But it was easy to. It was easy to have just a little a cell phone to coordinate with the other Peace Corps volunteers that were in the city. Yeah, because we had secondary projects going on together, music clubs and language speaking clubs and stuff like that.

So, yeah, that was that was. It's funny. We joke like, you know, some of the connecting with some of the other RPCVs. So talking about like if you have a cell phone, it's not Peace Corps, it’s Posh Corps.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So did you. So back to one of my questions. Did you have a bike or were you entirely reliant on public transport?

[User] Yeah, I'm walking and public transportation. Okay.

[Assistant] And your village? Your village was where was it in the country or what was the name of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm walking and public transportation. Okay.

[Assistant] And your village? Your village was where was it in the country or what was the name of it?

[User] So once I got to the site, I was in a village called Tarhanka.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It was in this little river valley. It was kind of an agriculture community during the Soviet Union. It was a large it was they had a horse. I am a collective farm, and they raised a lot of pigs and um. And they farmed sunflowers. Oh, wow. So and during the during the summer months, there would just be miles and miles of yellow fields in the distance and uh, just a really beautiful, beautiful village. One main road, now on this little river. So yeah, it was really, I mean, it didn't it didn't feel like a village in some ways because they had such a great infrastructure that even remained. I'm not great, but I mean, like they had infrastructure that remained from the Soviet Union that that that still was functional and houses had like heated, heated radiator systems, coal stoves and stuff like that. So the houses were really well kept. But a lot of the centralized buildings and services that were run by the Soviet Union had collapsed a lot and deteriorated. There was a dome cultura, a House of Culture, that this little village, 2,500 people, you know, they had this huge Soviet house of culture where they would do performances and they had they would have musical instruments and sporting equipment for all the village people. But without the without the central funding, you know, that just there were still some people that kind of kept it up. Um, the school is a lot like that, too. You know, they would kind of have to patch a patch a lot and put some band aids on it. But the houses were really kind of like independent and well-kept.

[Assistant] So what was your initial entry into the country like? What were your initial reactions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I talked a little bit about that earlier, but yeah, really just like I didn't really know anything about it. And so I my first introduction was sort of like a the booklet that Peace Corps sent. Yeah. About the history and some of the history and some of the culture. And um, but even that, I mean, it's that's hard to put into words. And practically when you're on the ground and kind of seeing how people who have such a lot of their history and culture has been, interwoven and subverted and co-opted by. Soviet culture in many ways. It was really interesting, seeing as how the nation was actually working through developing a collective identity after as they're as they're developing their nation after the fall of the Soviet Union. I was coming in. This was I mean, a little over a decade after the Soviet Union fell. And so they were they were doing a lot of like developing a real sense of nationalism around in many ways, a sort of like imagined and idealized vision of what their culture used to be.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So, I mean, in some ways, it may have been made up.

[Assistant] Maybe not. Right.

[User] But it was it was hard to tell because it had been part of the Soviet Union and then part of the Russian empire even before that. Right. And so a lot of that was lost. So they were really kind of recreating it.

[Assistant] Do you remember your emotional reactions? Do you remember periods where you were really lonely and or wanted to go home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would wake up. It would be dark. I'd go to class and it would be cold. And the school would put plastic film over the windows to keep the cold out. So there would be this sort of hazy sunlight coming through the windows. And then when classes ended, I'd leave and it'd be dark again. So that first winter, we got down to like negative. Forty five degrees. I was indoors a lot of the time. Right. And I didn't really have anyone my age or still was learning the lines while I was. So I was really lonely, isolated, and I was probably depressed. So, yeah, working through that. And at the same time, like I would also I was also kind of like trying to figure out, like, how do I how do I work through some of the, navigate some of these like ethical dilemmas that I had sort of imagined, like, OK, no one here's my age. Like as soon as they graduate kids graduating high school, they're they like they typically would leave.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So really, the only people that were there were the old people that that just end up staying there, stuck, they had the property there. Right. Or my students. Right.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so it was really difficult to kind of make relationships, let alone like navigating like the cultural norms about how you how you build relationships and how men interact. Yeah. So I had to, that was that was that was challenging.

[Assistant] You just mentioned how men interact. What was so different about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I struggled a lot with that. Like, I mean, I didn't want all of my relationships to be about like, okay, I have I have to drink, you know, to have some sort of relationship. But that's where I felt like a lot of men would approach me. They're like, hey, let's go get something to drink, you know? And especially with the young people, too. And so how do I have relationships with my students, especially with my own kind of my Western perceptions of, you know, authority, the dynamics of authority and power, power as a teacher over them? Um, you know, I I'm not going to drink with my students right now. Like I can't do that. So there was always this. And eventually it just kind of it became so it became so tiring to feel like constantly having to navigate that. That that added, I think, a lot to my feeling of isolation. It was easier to back or back away and isolate myself to some degree than it was to try and interact.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that's really one of my biggest regrets, I think, is giving in to that temptation to just isolate myself. Um, I mean, it wasn't always like that.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was, but in the village, there was that sort of like that sense of oppression. That's a strong word, but.

[Assistant] So if you were to advise an incoming or new volunteer on how to work through that, what we through the feelings of isolation, how would you how would you advise them? Looking back now that you're wiser.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So a lot of it was I mean, that that kind of goes hand in hand with the language and sort of having to stumble through that. It just takes it does take a lot of work. And so being OK with that. And so that's the that's the one piece like it takes, I think, having a good support around you to be able to have to always put that energy in.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Really thinking through some good strategies for mindfulness. If that's prayer. If that's some journaling. And putting in the work really to know yourself better and be more aware of yourself, which is something that I think that was one of the pieces of my story growing up in central Texas, being educated in central Texas, having this sense that I do need to be more aware, but not really having the tools to increase my own awareness and going into Peace Corps. So I had to like all of that was done on the fly.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] Um, so I think it really benefits someone who's stepping into different, who's stepping into cultural difference and navigating that. To do to do more on the front end. And developing their intercultural competency, um, finding a mentor or finding a coach. And then it's easier now, I imagine, with social media and more connected connectivity to have some familiar support structures, whether it's family or friends, to be able to work through and work through that.

[Assistant] So what were the specifics of the job to which you were assigned? And what were your living arrangements?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, so I was teaching, like I mentioned, all classes. So they would typically have two lessons a week, except for some grades that would have three lessons a week. So I felt like I was constantly like lesson planning, doing teaching lessons. So it was all throughout the week. So pretty much it felt like 9:00 to 5:00. Yeah, there's a full there's a full day.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you would get there at nine. And how long? I don't know. Probably I don't understand the structure.

[User] Probably more like 8:00 to 4:00 I guess.

[Assistant] And were they were the classes two hours long? One hour long?

[User] They were usually, I think, 50 minutes. Ok, 45 or 50 minutes. So, yeah, it would be sort of like rotating through, you know, I'd teach like fifth grade on Tuesday, Thursday, OK, I teach 11th grade on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And so it was always like I'd get there early. I do lesson planning, prepare for the day, prepare the materials, teach one lesson, maybe have a break, teach another lesson. The next day would be very similar.

[Assistant] Ok, so did you do most of your lesson planning at school then? Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Was the school open air or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably more like 8:00 to 4:00 I guess.

[Assistant] And were they were the classes two hours long? One hour long?

[User] They were usually, I think, 50 minutes. Ok, 45 or 50 minutes. So, yeah, it would be sort of like rotating through, you know, I'd teach like fifth grade on Tuesday, Thursday, OK, I teach 11th grade on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And so it was always like I'd get there early. I do lesson planning, prepare for the day, prepare the materials, teach one lesson, maybe have a break, teach another lesson. The next day would be very similar.

[Assistant] Ok, so did you do most of your lesson planning at school then? Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Was the school open air or?

[User] No, it was. It was a building. Old, old Soviet Brutalist square building.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were the windows glass or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were usually, I think, 50 minutes. Ok, 45 or 50 minutes. So, yeah, it would be sort of like rotating through, you know, I'd teach like fifth grade on Tuesday, Thursday, OK, I teach 11th grade on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And so it was always like I'd get there early. I do lesson planning, prepare for the day, prepare the materials, teach one lesson, maybe have a break, teach another lesson. The next day would be very similar.

[Assistant] Ok, so did you do most of your lesson planning at school then? Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Was the school open air or?

[User] No, it was. It was a building. Old, old Soviet Brutalist square building.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were the windows glass or?

[User] Windows were glass? Yeah.

[Assistant] And where are you in your living arrangements? Did you have a room or a separate room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was. It was a building. Old, old Soviet Brutalist square building.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were the windows glass or?

[User] Windows were glass? Yeah.

[Assistant] And where are you in your living arrangements? Did you have a room or a separate room?

[User] Yeah, separate room. That was part of the agreement, right? So, yeah, it was a separate room with a lock. Um, shared a shared a bathroom upstairs with the other guest room. So when the when their son was home, like we would share their bathroom. But otherwise I had it to myself. And yeah, it was actually more of like a futon like daybed and did have a balcony, but it was effectively closed for half the year because of the cold. We put plastic over the over the door. But it was super warm because of the attablini, the radiation system when it would be like it. It's a coal stove, but then the heat would run through the pipes of the whole house. And so like I mean, middle of the winter, 45 degrees outside, and there would be like a hundred degrees in my room.

[Assistant] So, um, what were your relationships with other people? Did you make friends in the town or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I even had the one of the local um, the minister of education of our region, which is kind of like a county, I guess, or state. Yeah. State came and wanted to interview me, just to, you know, make sure that I was a good kid and not spying. I mean, there was nothing there to spy on. It was a village of 2,500 people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But yeah, there was always that sort of like a little undercurrent of that fear.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which I mean, in rural and rural America, you see the same thing, right. The reds, the commies, the right like there was huge in the eighties and nineties have growing up.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But yeah, there was always that sort of like a little undercurrent of that fear.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which I mean, in rural and rural America, you see the same thing, right. The reds, the commies, the right like there was huge in the eighties and nineties have growing up.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah.

[User] And still you I mean, you still see some of that today. You know, the relationship politically between us and Russia.

[Assistant] So did you take any vacations or travel while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which I mean, in rural and rural America, you see the same thing, right. The reds, the commies, the right like there was huge in the eighties and nineties have growing up.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah.

[User] And still you I mean, you still see some of that today. You know, the relationship politically between us and Russia.

[Assistant] So did you take any vacations or travel while you were there?

[User] So I did come home once in the summer right before the pre- service training for the new group, because I assisted with the training for the second group coming in a year after I did. And that was a think for about a week and a half. I also went to southern Kazakhstan to this town called Shymkent for the Persian New Year, Nowruz.

[Assistant] What was that fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And still you I mean, you still see some of that today. You know, the relationship politically between us and Russia.

[Assistant] So did you take any vacations or travel while you were there?

[User] So I did come home once in the summer right before the pre- service training for the new group, because I assisted with the training for the second group coming in a year after I did. And that was a think for about a week and a half. I also went to southern Kazakhstan to this town called Shymkent for the Persian New Year, Nowruz.

[Assistant] What was that fun?

[User] Yeah, it was amazing.

[Assistant] What did call the Persian New Year? Never mind. OK, keep going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did come home once in the summer right before the pre- service training for the new group, because I assisted with the training for the second group coming in a year after I did. And that was a think for about a week and a half. I also went to southern Kazakhstan to this town called Shymkent for the Persian New Year, Nowruz.

[Assistant] What was that fun?

[User] Yeah, it was amazing.

[Assistant] What did call the Persian New Year? Never mind. OK, keep going.

[User] And also to just some of the surrounding countryside in the state where I was. But I really I spent the majority of my time on site. OK.

[Assistant] What do you think were your main accomplishments, your regrets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was amazing.

[Assistant] What did call the Persian New Year? Never mind. OK, keep going.

[User] And also to just some of the surrounding countryside in the state where I was. But I really I spent the majority of my time on site. OK.

[Assistant] What do you think were your main accomplishments, your regrets?

[User] It's hard because I mean, I know, I'm sure that there was some impact. I just don't really see. There wasn't anything like clearly measurable. The so there were lots of relationships I had with students. Some of those kind of continued. But it's hard to keep in touch.

[Assistant] Have you kept in touch with anybody?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And also to just some of the surrounding countryside in the state where I was. But I really I spent the majority of my time on site. OK.

[Assistant] What do you think were your main accomplishments, your regrets?

[User] It's hard because I mean, I know, I'm sure that there was some impact. I just don't really see. There wasn't anything like clearly measurable. The so there were lots of relationships I had with students. Some of those kind of continued. But it's hard to keep in touch.

[Assistant] Have you kept in touch with anybody?

[User] Some I'd write I've written letters to my host family and some emails and stuff like that. They're not too tech savvy. So I you know, I do handwritten letters every once in a while. And I've connected with some of my former students and they're kind of all over the place. So a lot of the a lot of the women, this was just sort of like some of the norms, I guess, in terms of profession. More women would be involved in language learning. That was sort of the big field and like interpretation and translation. Some businesses, you know, they would do like economics and language. Those were the sort of big fields for women. A lot of the men were more pushed to do like more either agriculture, if they're staying in the village or go on to, you know, more technical, technical fields. So there weren't a ton of there weren't a ton of men in my class, mostly women. As far as your students went.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how do you feel about or how was your reentry into the United States? Can you talk a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was around. And when I came back, this was around the same time that like Naked juice, all that had come out. And I remember just going to the store. Huge supermarkets, right? Wal-Mart Supercenter HEB Superstore. Target Superstore. And there'd be like this huge, huge refrigerated case full of, you know, green, different shades of green and orange and red and pink and purple juices like so many and just like bombarding me. So that was like that was just, I think, one sense of overwhelming. And I experienced, again, through it through the eyes of my wife when she came, she was from Kazakhstan. We met there and, you know, kind of her coming here and just like menus in restaurants, like all of the choices. And we're in our culture, we're so accustomed to having things in individualized. It's exactly the way we want.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That we don't have a sense of really like what it means to, I think, give something up or compromise. It's easy. It's easier for us to think of to be self-absorbed.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so that was something that I was trying to be mindful of, too. And I just.

[Assistant] So when I asked you about your relationships, you didn't mention your wife? So how did you meet her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That we don't have a sense of really like what it means to, I think, give something up or compromise. It's easy. It's easier for us to think of to be self-absorbed.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so that was something that I was trying to be mindful of, too. And I just.

[Assistant] So when I asked you about your relationships, you didn't mention your wife? So how did you meet her?

[User] Oh, you're talking about my village. I met her at the.

[Assistant] Oh, she wasn't in your village?