[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I designed it and my friend built it because he was a welder. [I did help him build it when I had time.]

[Assistant] He could make it work. That’s a good combination.

[User] Yes, but he wound up getting in all the pictures [except one]. He got in the newspaper. He just happened to be there when they came. He was finishing up. He got in all the pictures that went in the newspaper. [We had a lot of fun with the kids also.]

[Assistant] But you got to work on Apollo 11, so that’s a good tradeoff. You mentioned a while ago too about [Apollo] 13, about how important it was. Were you part [of that mission?]

[User] I did not work on 13. Apollo 11 was the last Apollo flight I worked on, because they took a group of us to work on the Space Shuttle. I worked on the Space Shuttle aborts, which is mainly the Return to Launch Site [RTLS] and the landings in Africa [Transoceanic Abort Landing (TAL)]. We did the Abort to Orbit [ATO], where something happens, you can still go into orbit, but then the ones that you land in Spain or land in Africa I remember. So that’s mainly what I did on the Space Shuttle, plus the real-time support. Some logic of mine did get into the Space Shuttle computer, on the aborts, on the GRTLS [Glide Return to Launch Site], which was the glide portion.

[Assistant] Tell us your thoughts when you learned about Space Shuttle and some of the initial ideas that came out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but in history maybe they [may] have something of what they had to do, but I know they had to do a lot to be able [to support the landing].

[Assistant] Yes, in a short amount of time.

[User] They said, “We were scrambling.” I think they worked all night.

[Assistant] Were you involved with the approach and landing test?

[User] Indirectly. I knew the people that were working on it. We had the programs. I knew what they went through, but I was involved in with the aborts, because you had to do approach and landing, but not the design of the approach and landing. I knew the people that worked on that, because we all worked on this thing [the Space Shuttle], but I was mainly more on the aerodynamic forces when you come in. That was more of what I did.

[Assistant] What were your memories of STS-1, with Crippen and Young?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They called me up, I don’t know, [about] a month before the flight, because they were concerned about the aborts. So I went, because that’s what I worked on, the aborts. Mainly the RTLS, the return to launch site. They called me up because they said, “We’re kind of confused on some of this stuff.” Actually I don’t know why but they called me, so I went and told Harpold. I said, “John Young called me, he wants me to go over and tell them all about the RTLS, the return to launch site.” Which includes the powered [abort], so I went over all the things that we had to do.\n\n I said, “We checked it all out, it’s fine.” They said okay and thanks for coming, but I think that they just wanted to see me probably. [I had only talked to them on the phone before.] That’s what I thought, because they knew all [about the aborts], they just wanted somebody to tell them. I said, “I don’t know why they called.”\n\n I was in the staff support room in the mission when we did the entry. That was our first entry, but we had the times that they were going to go into blackout and the time they were going to come out of blackout. We had computed those times real-time in the ACR, so we knew. We were just listening and listening, until it came time for that. They did come out at about the same time.

[Assistant] Well, that was exciting.

[User] Oh yes. Everybody was on pins and needles.

[Assistant] Especially for a manned flight, first time out.

[User] Yes. Oh, I remember when I was talking to the [weather] guys at Edwards. They said, “We saw the landing. John Young came out and he was just jumping, looking at the Orbiter. I think he kicked the tires.”

[Assistant] What an exciting time for you to have worked on these three different spacecraft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Everybody was on pins and needles.

[Assistant] Especially for a manned flight, first time out.

[User] Yes. Oh, I remember when I was talking to the [weather] guys at Edwards. They said, “We saw the landing. John Young came out and he was just jumping, looking at the Orbiter. I think he kicked the tires.”

[Assistant] What an exciting time for you to have worked on these three different spacecraft.

[User] Yes. I didn’t work on Mercury but I knew [some of] the people that worked on Mercury. Carl [R.] Huss became our MPAD division head at one time, and I used to talk with him a lot. In fact I bought [one of] his car[s]. He had a T-shirt that said he was the first Retrofire Officer in the free world or something [like that]. They worked out of KSC when they did Mercury, but he was a good guy, Carl Huss. He said, “I’m the first Retrofire Officer of the free world.” All those stories.

[Assistant] How many Shuttle flights were you assisting with before you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Yes. The weather.

[Assistant] Can you share with us some of the challenges?

[User] It’s different weather and also it’s a lake bed at Edwards. At KSC we have a [finite] runway. I had been on that runway. So it’s a different rollout, different aim points. We had aim points where you had to hit so you would be able to stay on the runway and have a good landing. Of course the weather was bad sometimes because of the humidity, especially in the summer.\n\n Then the approach was a little different also. A lot of times we’d go through Texas. A lot of times we’d go through Mexico, but to me Edwards was a lot easier to land at, because it was very forgiving, but not at KSC. That was something that we really had to make sure to go into KSC, because of the finite runway.\n\n That was the main difference there. Other than that we still had the HAC, the Heading Alignment Circle. It would be the same. We had more capability at KSC, as far as the balloons and the weather [support], but to me it was a little tougher until we finally started landing there.

[Assistant] Do you want to take a look at the notes you had made to see if there’s some areas that we might not have talked about?

[User] Even when I graduated from high school, I still went to work as a migrant worker, because that was the quickest job that you could get, but I worked mainly in the packing plants. My brother went to work at a factory, but they said I was too young or something. So I couldn’t work. So I had to go back and work in the canning plants.

[Assistant] Were they in Texas or did you go out of the state?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, John Glenn was old, but he made it [back into space].

[Assistant] Yes he did. Well, thank you so much for giving up your afternoon for us and sharing all these nice memories

[User] Oh, it’s my pleasure. I guess I was glad that I worked [with the space program]. I don’t think I’d have been happy working anyplace else, even though I worked with the environmental agency [in Texas] 12, 13 years, which was a lot to me. I like the operations, and the technical side too. So I was glad that I was able to work on both sides. There were some times that weren’t good, but some times that were. I let everything roll off my back. I didn’t care.

[Assistant] It’s really nice you got to live out your dream from a young child, that you got to do the things that you really wanted to do.

[User] Yes, because when I was a kid picking cotton I knew that I was going to work somewhere, that I was going to be a pilot. At that time I didn’t know I didn’t see that well. [So I settled for aerospace work.]

[Assistant] But you got to see a lot, so that’s what’s really amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it’s my pleasure. I guess I was glad that I worked [with the space program]. I don’t think I’d have been happy working anyplace else, even though I worked with the environmental agency [in Texas] 12, 13 years, which was a lot to me. I like the operations, and the technical side too. So I was glad that I was able to work on both sides. There were some times that weren’t good, but some times that were. I let everything roll off my back. I didn’t care.

[Assistant] It’s really nice you got to live out your dream from a young child, that you got to do the things that you really wanted to do.

[User] Yes, because when I was a kid picking cotton I knew that I was going to work somewhere, that I was going to be a pilot. At that time I didn’t know I didn’t see that well. [So I settled for aerospace work.]

[Assistant] But you got to see a lot, so that’s what’s really amazing.

[User] Yes. Yes. I’m glad that I had a part in it, even though I wasn’t really recognized that much. It didn’t matter to me, as long as I knew what I did. I was very happy. My wife wasn’t too happy with the work, with the amount of work that I did, but we got through that. We were able to work things out. I know that three or four of my buddies got a divorce. It was hard on families. You really had to be dedicated to work that many hours, especially at the beginning. But I think that was the only way we could accomplish our goal within the time limit that was set by [President John F.] Kennedy. Oh, I went to his inauguration.

[Assistant] Did you really?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, because when I was a kid picking cotton I knew that I was going to work somewhere, that I was going to be a pilot. At that time I didn’t know I didn’t see that well. [So I settled for aerospace work.]

[Assistant] But you got to see a lot, so that’s what’s really amazing.

[User] Yes. Yes. I’m glad that I had a part in it, even though I wasn’t really recognized that much. It didn’t matter to me, as long as I knew what I did. I was very happy. My wife wasn’t too happy with the work, with the amount of work that I did, but we got through that. We were able to work things out. I know that three or four of my buddies got a divorce. It was hard on families. You really had to be dedicated to work that many hours, especially at the beginning. But I think that was the only way we could accomplish our goal within the time limit that was set by [President John F.] Kennedy. Oh, I went to his inauguration.

[Assistant] Did you really?

[User] Well, I was out there in the snow. My wife and I were out in the snow. It just happened that that was my day off when I was in the Army. I said, “We’re going.” So he was Catholic, and we were Catholic, but that wasn’t the reason. It’s that he had a lot of goals for the country.

[Assistant] A lot of hope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. I’m glad that I had a part in it, even though I wasn’t really recognized that much. It didn’t matter to me, as long as I knew what I did. I was very happy. My wife wasn’t too happy with the work, with the amount of work that I did, but we got through that. We were able to work things out. I know that three or four of my buddies got a divorce. It was hard on families. You really had to be dedicated to work that many hours, especially at the beginning. But I think that was the only way we could accomplish our goal within the time limit that was set by [President John F.] Kennedy. Oh, I went to his inauguration.

[Assistant] Did you really?

[User] Well, I was out there in the snow. My wife and I were out in the snow. It just happened that that was my day off when I was in the Army. I said, “We’re going.” So he was Catholic, and we were Catholic, but that wasn’t the reason. It’s that he had a lot of goals for the country.

[Assistant] A lot of hope.

[User] Yes. We went, and at the time my camera didn’t work right. Something happened to my camera and I was able to take just a few pictures, but we were out there. He was like that [indicating size because of distance], but we saw him, we could hear him. We were there. Even though it snowed all night, I remember. My wife said, “You really want to go.”\n\n I said, “Yeah, this is our only chance.”

[Assistant] That was a good decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kona.

[Assistant] Kona. Thanks again for having us out to your house. We certainly appreciate the time that you’re taking this morning. I wanted to ask you about your move into Houston. I understand that you bought a house in Nassau Bay.

[User] Had it built.

[Assistant] Why did you move to Houston?

[User] I was married to a guy who was with the DuPont Company, and he was transferred to the Houston area. DuPont was generous enough to send me down to find a house. They gave me two days.

[Assistant] That’s very generous.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Had it built.

[Assistant] Why did you move to Houston?

[User] I was married to a guy who was with the DuPont Company, and he was transferred to the Houston area. DuPont was generous enough to send me down to find a house. They gave me two days.

[Assistant] That’s very generous.

[User] I couldn’t find a house that I liked. I’d been living in a gigantic Victorian house across from Niagara Falls, and there’s nothing like that around. I love antiques, and I look for that. I found a lot. There’s a little lake in the back of Nassau Bay, and I found a lot on a corner that faced that. In those two days, I found a builder and a plan. Because I’d done many houses—too many—I sent him instructions of everything that I wanted: the wallpaper, what numbers, where it went, the tiles, everything. When we arrived to move in he had only made one mistake. He’d put one tile where another—he switched. He said I was the easiest he had ever had to work with. I shook his hand, smiled, and he drove away.\n\n What I wanted to do was set myself up as an artist in the area because that’s what I’ve always been. I started selling paintings when I was in high school. I’d studied with some of the most famous [artists]. Norman Rockwell was a friend of my father because Dad worked in the main office, which was in New York City, and Rockwell did a lot of stuff for the company.

[Assistant] What company was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Apparently he had gotten lessons from someone that he wasn’t satisfied with. That’s what I got from him. I said, “Why do you want to do this?”\n\n He says, “Ardis, when I retire from the space program I want to be able to paint space. I’ll be the only artist that’s ever been in space, that’s painting space. I can make a living doing it.” He did.

[Assistant] Oh yes. Very well actually. He made quite a lot of money.

[User] I did Amy’s portrait. She was about that tall [demonstrates] and blond. My youngest son Scott, he was so cute. There was a little brick wall around that you went through to my front door and a little garden. I kept hearing a little girl say, “Scott, come out! Scott, come out,” over and over. Finally I went to the living room window, and I looked out. There’s three little girls sitting on the top. I wonder where Scott is. Finally I went back to his bedroom. I said, “Scott.”\n\n He says, “I know. I’m not coming out.”\n\n I went to the front door, and I said, “I’m sorry, Amy and your friends, Scott is not coming out.”

[Assistant] Oh, that’s funny. Nassau Bay sounds like a nice family neighborhood. Is that why you picked it?

[User] It was. I wanted to live in River Oaks because they were older houses, and I was coming from a Victorian. I found one I really liked, and my husband refused to move there because it was going to be too long a drive for him to go to DuPont. He said, “We’re going to go down to Nassau Bay,” and that’s how I ended up [there].\n\n That’s Alan and that’s me and that’s other people in the class. [Shows picture]

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. He looks so young there. Everybody does.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did Amy’s portrait. She was about that tall [demonstrates] and blond. My youngest son Scott, he was so cute. There was a little brick wall around that you went through to my front door and a little garden. I kept hearing a little girl say, “Scott, come out! Scott, come out,” over and over. Finally I went to the living room window, and I looked out. There’s three little girls sitting on the top. I wonder where Scott is. Finally I went back to his bedroom. I said, “Scott.”\n\n He says, “I know. I’m not coming out.”\n\n I went to the front door, and I said, “I’m sorry, Amy and your friends, Scott is not coming out.”

[Assistant] Oh, that’s funny. Nassau Bay sounds like a nice family neighborhood. Is that why you picked it?

[User] It was. I wanted to live in River Oaks because they were older houses, and I was coming from a Victorian. I found one I really liked, and my husband refused to move there because it was going to be too long a drive for him to go to DuPont. He said, “We’re going to go down to Nassau Bay,” and that’s how I ended up [there].\n\n That’s Alan and that’s me and that’s other people in the class. [Shows picture]

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. He looks so young there. Everybody does.

[User] Here’s a better print of it.

[Assistant] Is this photo in your home, or is it in the apartment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. I wanted to live in River Oaks because they were older houses, and I was coming from a Victorian. I found one I really liked, and my husband refused to move there because it was going to be too long a drive for him to go to DuPont. He said, “We’re going to go down to Nassau Bay,” and that’s how I ended up [there].\n\n That’s Alan and that’s me and that’s other people in the class. [Shows picture]

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. He looks so young there. Everybody does.

[User] Here’s a better print of it.

[Assistant] Is this photo in your home, or is it in the apartment?

[User] No, that’s where I taught. That was my family room. I bought enough easels so that everyone would have one when they came to the house. Then they put them in the garage when they left.

[Assistant]
That’s great.

That’s amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Here’s a better print of it.

[Assistant] Is this photo in your home, or is it in the apartment?

[User] No, that’s where I taught. That was my family room. I bought enough easels so that everyone would have one when they came to the house. Then they put them in the garage when they left.

[Assistant]
That’s great.

That’s amazing.

[User] The funny part about it is my education, I’m just an artist. I’ve got brains from NASA, people who did important jobs that had degree after degree, and here I am just an artist and I’m teaching them. I was very humble about the whole thing, but we had a good time. Do you want any pictures?

[Assistant]
If you want to share.

We can scan them and return them to you, so yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that’s where I taught. That was my family room. I bought enough easels so that everyone would have one when they came to the house. Then they put them in the garage when they left.

[Assistant]
That’s great.

That’s amazing.

[User] The funny part about it is my education, I’m just an artist. I’ve got brains from NASA, people who did important jobs that had degree after degree, and here I am just an artist and I’m teaching them. I was very humble about the whole thing, but we had a good time. Do you want any pictures?

[Assistant]
If you want to share.

We can scan them and return them to you, so yes.

[User] Yes. You might want that.

[Assistant] We always like to add them to the transcripts because then it just adds nice detail. …


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The funny part about it is my education, I’m just an artist. I’ve got brains from NASA, people who did important jobs that had degree after degree, and here I am just an artist and I’m teaching them. I was very humble about the whole thing, but we had a good time. Do you want any pictures?

[Assistant]
If you want to share.

We can scan them and return them to you, so yes.

[User] Yes. You might want that.

[Assistant] We always like to add them to the transcripts because then it just adds nice detail. …

[User] I had a party at my house for the wives. … This was really fun. [Shows photos]

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about that [the patch on the antique car] as well. I understand you designed that for the vehicle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You might want that.

[Assistant] We always like to add them to the transcripts because then it just adds nice detail. …

[User] I had a party at my house for the wives. … This was really fun. [Shows photos]

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about that [the patch on the antique car] as well. I understand you designed that for the vehicle.

[User] I painted it.

[Assistant] I wondered if you were involved in the decision to go with those Western nineteenth century [outfits].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a party at my house for the wives. … This was really fun. [Shows photos]

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about that [the patch on the antique car] as well. I understand you designed that for the vehicle.

[User] I painted it.

[Assistant] I wondered if you were involved in the decision to go with those Western nineteenth century [outfits].

[User] They came up with that idea and asked me if I would do a patch big enough to cover the tire on the back. Gratia [Lousma] has it. She’s not sure where it is.

[Assistant] They have moved a couple of times, so it probably is somewhere. …


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They came up with that idea and asked me if I would do a patch big enough to cover the tire on the back. Gratia [Lousma] has it. She’s not sure where it is.

[Assistant] They have moved a couple of times, so it probably is somewhere. …

[User] Jack [R.] Lousma has a really neat story about the wives’ patch. He was actually sitting right where you are right now when he told me about it. He said that when they got up into space they each had a little [locker] that was for their personal stuff, and when they each opened their door they saw the wives’ patch. That’s the first they knew about the wives’ patch. That was a surprise. He’s so sweet. He said, “Ardis, every day I would open that and it would make me happy to see that patch.” Isn’t that darling of him?

[Assistant] That’s sweet.

[User] He’s a jewel among men.

[Assistant] Why don’t we talk about the patch, since we’ve got it in front of us. Tell us how the idea came about. Did you know these three women? Why did you decide to design a patch specifically for that crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What happened is I had a party at my house and invited them. I had cut them out, because they came from the printer like that. I cut three out and one for me. When they came in, I stuck it on them.

[Assistant] Ah, so that’s what that is on their shirts in this photo.

[User] Yes. They just thought it was a gas. It was a big party. It was joyous. I think that’s the first time people had given them any kind of credit.

[Assistant] How did you manage to get the patch on board the spacecraft?

[User] I still do not know the answer. The reason is it was very very illegal for somebody to stick something [onboard] that they hadn’t approved of on any of those [missions]. Somebody who worked inside that thing, and nobody would ever tell me who, put those on. I wasn’t even told that it was done. I didn’t know it until I got a picture of Alan Bean on my computer looking at this patch in space. That’s the first I knew that it had even happened. Nobody’s ever going to tell who did it. I’m sorry, I don’t know.

[Assistant] It’s worth asking. Obviously you had done the portrait of Sue [Bean] by then. Did you know the other two wives? Were you close friends with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’d take pictures to send to French-speaking newspapers. We knew each other. We were friends. I didn’t have to say, “I’m Ardis.”

[Assistant] Tell us about the splashdown parties. A lot of people tell us that they were really exciting and very interesting, but they don’t provide too many details.

[User] My favorite party that I went to there was when they had the unveiling of Amy Bean[’s portrait].

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Their layout in their house was a typical Nassau Bay house. When you walked in the front door, you knew where everything was. It was a two-story house. You walked in the entrance and their living room, always tiny—big family room and then a dining room. I walked in, and I looked and hanging over the buffet in the dining room was this portrait.\n\n Everybody was, “Ardis is here.” I’m not good at all that attention. That was a super party. That was my favorite of any that I went to.

[Assistant] I bet. Seeing your work on someone’s wall. Was it a big deal to you that an astronaut had asked you to do portraits? Or was it kind of like [anyone else] asking [you] to commission a painting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My favorite party that I went to there was when they had the unveiling of Amy Bean[’s portrait].

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Their layout in their house was a typical Nassau Bay house. When you walked in the front door, you knew where everything was. It was a two-story house. You walked in the entrance and their living room, always tiny—big family room and then a dining room. I walked in, and I looked and hanging over the buffet in the dining room was this portrait.\n\n Everybody was, “Ardis is here.” I’m not good at all that attention. That was a super party. That was my favorite of any that I went to.

[Assistant] I bet. Seeing your work on someone’s wall. Was it a big deal to you that an astronaut had asked you to do portraits? Or was it kind of like [anyone else] asking [you] to commission a painting?

[User] It was a big deal that we got to be such good friends. I’ve done stuff for movie stars and other big deal people. They’re just human beings. I can admire them for what their accomplishments are. …

[Assistant] I bet you have some interesting stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was so much talking going on, I don’t remember anything that happened, just the vision of the whole thing. The most interesting part about that is Alan always had things figured out the way he wanted them to be before you discussed [them]. When he came over about it he said, “This is what I want.”\n\n My normal size [portrait] was about the size of that [points] but turned the other way, so that it was long. He said, “I want Amy full-length in the center and then I want four little different poses, vignettes, in the corners of her doing something.”\n\n I said, “Alan, you’re not going to like that.”\n\n He said, “That’s what I want.” That’s what I did.\n\n They’re on a specially prepared board, they’re done with pencils, and they have fixative afterwards. Once you’ve gotten that far, you’re done with that. He came over, and he looked at it. He said, “I don’t like it.”\n\n I said, “Alan, I told you you weren’t going to like it.”\n\n He said, “I’m sorry.” So I had to do it over again with just Amy’s portrait in the middle. I believe I charged him $300.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you, but I wasn’t sure if that was appropriate.

[User] Back then my house payment was $299 a month. Money was different. A carton of cigarettes was four bucks. When we say $299, in today’s money it would be a lot more. But I never made the kind of money that my brother did.\n\n My brother was one of America’s most important artists ever, and I could get an iPad from the other room and show you his work. … He was very successful. I’m just the secondary artist in the Shanks family.

[Assistant] Let’s talk a little bit about Nassau Bay, because I think it’s an interesting community.

[User] Oh, I’m sorry.

[Assistant] Oh, no, you’re fine. We appreciate these stories about Alan Bean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Back then my house payment was $299 a month. Money was different. A carton of cigarettes was four bucks. When we say $299, in today’s money it would be a lot more. But I never made the kind of money that my brother did.\n\n My brother was one of America’s most important artists ever, and I could get an iPad from the other room and show you his work. … He was very successful. I’m just the secondary artist in the Shanks family.

[Assistant] Let’s talk a little bit about Nassau Bay, because I think it’s an interesting community.

[User] Oh, I’m sorry.

[Assistant] Oh, no, you’re fine. We appreciate these stories about Alan Bean.

[User] They’re important. The stuff about Alan is important to me.

[Assistant] They are. It is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I’m sorry.

[Assistant] Oh, no, you’re fine. We appreciate these stories about Alan Bean.

[User] They’re important. The stuff about Alan is important to me.

[Assistant] They are. It is.

[User] I want people to know what a wonderful human being he was.

[Assistant] Absolutely. If there’s other stories you want to tell us, we would love to capture them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They’re important. The stuff about Alan is important to me.

[Assistant] They are. It is.

[User] I want people to know what a wonderful human being he was.

[Assistant] Absolutely. If there’s other stories you want to tell us, we would love to capture them.

[User] One or two were full of themselves but very few. Now you take John [H.] Glenn for example. Can I tell you a story about John?

[Assistant] Sure, of course.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want people to know what a wonderful human being he was.

[Assistant] Absolutely. If there’s other stories you want to tell us, we would love to capture them.

[User] One or two were full of themselves but very few. Now you take John [H.] Glenn for example. Can I tell you a story about John?

[Assistant] Sure, of course.

[User] I can’t remember whether it was Kansas City, I think it was, that he was from that area. Do you know?

[Assistant] I think he’s from Ohio.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember whether it was Kansas City, I think it was, that he was from that area. Do you know?

[Assistant] I think he’s from Ohio.

[User] Near Cleveland then. My dad after I’d grown up was the Scout executive for the greater Cleveland area. He managed to get a big new wonderful office space built, which I’m sure is still there, in the colonial style, of course, downtown. He got the idea to contact John Glenn and see if he would come and talk to the Boy Scouts, and John Glenn agreed. He went. It was outside the front of this big huge building, and it was just Boy Scouts, massive, all in their uniforms. I can just imagine what it was like.\n\n He gave this wonderful talk, and when he was finished he was signing autographs and answering questions. Two guys came up, I guess they were the pilots that brought him from NASA. I don’t know. It was the plane he was on. “Excuse me, sir, but we need to leave right now.”\n\n “I’m busy. Wait a few [minutes]. Excuse me, but I’m not finished yet.” He would not go until the last kid had been satisfied. That impressed my father so much that that man was willing to take his time to come and talk to the boys like he did.\n\n Did you know the first astronauts were all Eagle Scouts?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You did?

[Assistant]
Yes.

I think I’ve heard that before.

Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Near Cleveland then. My dad after I’d grown up was the Scout executive for the greater Cleveland area. He managed to get a big new wonderful office space built, which I’m sure is still there, in the colonial style, of course, downtown. He got the idea to contact John Glenn and see if he would come and talk to the Boy Scouts, and John Glenn agreed. He went. It was outside the front of this big huge building, and it was just Boy Scouts, massive, all in their uniforms. I can just imagine what it was like.\n\n He gave this wonderful talk, and when he was finished he was signing autographs and answering questions. Two guys came up, I guess they were the pilots that brought him from NASA. I don’t know. It was the plane he was on. “Excuse me, sir, but we need to leave right now.”\n\n “I’m busy. Wait a few [minutes]. Excuse me, but I’m not finished yet.” He would not go until the last kid had been satisfied. That impressed my father so much that that man was willing to take his time to come and talk to the boys like he did.\n\n Did you know the first astronauts were all Eagle Scouts?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You did?

[Assistant]
Yes.

I think I’ve heard that before.

Yes.

[User] I went to Boy Scout camp in the summer. My girlfriends went to Girl Scout camp.

[Assistant] It makes sense. You have to keep it in the family, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You did?

[Assistant]
Yes.

I think I’ve heard that before.

Yes.

[User] I went to Boy Scout camp in the summer. My girlfriends went to Girl Scout camp.

[Assistant] It makes sense. You have to keep it in the family, right?

[User] Those are just stories about two of the astronauts that myself and my family got to know best. They’re just such nice human beings.

[Assistant] Had you followed the space program much before you moved to Nassau Bay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Boy Scout camp in the summer. My girlfriends went to Girl Scout camp.

[Assistant] It makes sense. You have to keep it in the family, right?

[User] Those are just stories about two of the astronauts that myself and my family got to know best. They’re just such nice human beings.

[Assistant] Had you followed the space program much before you moved to Nassau Bay?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] Was it a big deal that you were moving right across the street from the Manned Spacecraft Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Those are just stories about two of the astronauts that myself and my family got to know best. They’re just such nice human beings.

[Assistant] Had you followed the space program much before you moved to Nassau Bay?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] Was it a big deal that you were moving right across the street from the Manned Spacecraft Center?

[User] No. I was just not happy because I wanted to live in River Oaks.

[Assistant] What did Nassau Bay look like when you moved there? Was there a lot of construction going on, or were things pretty much built up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] Was it a big deal that you were moving right across the street from the Manned Spacecraft Center?

[User] No. I was just not happy because I wanted to live in River Oaks.

[Assistant] What did Nassau Bay look like when you moved there? Was there a lot of construction going on, or were things pretty much built up?

[User] Pretty much finished, pretty much the way they look right now. I think some storm took down one or two houses that had to be rebuilt. It was a nice place to live, and I thought the school system was very good.\n\n While we were there my oldest daughter went to [Texas] A&M [University, College Station]. Phil, if you see the picture of the two boys with the hats, the one on the right, he was a musician in high school. The one on the left became a big deal with Chevron. Rex Tillerson fired 7,000 people one day while he was back on leave from Kazakhstan, so they sent him $1.25 million severance pay. He already had made millions. He’s a multimillionaire retired, and he’s in his fifties.\n\n Phil went out to Hollywood. When he was a teenager, he played at Fridays. But he and his friends weren’t old enough to drive, so I would drive them down to the nightclub, where they would play, and I would sit in there for the evening. He would always do the same thing, it was so cute. The kids got such good vibes living in the Bay Area. No crime. You didn’t have to worry about locking your doors.\n\n At the end when all the applause was down he’d say, “And now I’d like you to meet my mother.” Now how many teenage kids would do that? Somebody took this picture. Here. I just was so proud of him because I can’t imagine teenagers wanting to introduce their mother. I’m the mother. That’s him up on the stage.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s sweet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was just not happy because I wanted to live in River Oaks.

[Assistant] What did Nassau Bay look like when you moved there? Was there a lot of construction going on, or were things pretty much built up?

[User] Pretty much finished, pretty much the way they look right now. I think some storm took down one or two houses that had to be rebuilt. It was a nice place to live, and I thought the school system was very good.\n\n While we were there my oldest daughter went to [Texas] A&M [University, College Station]. Phil, if you see the picture of the two boys with the hats, the one on the right, he was a musician in high school. The one on the left became a big deal with Chevron. Rex Tillerson fired 7,000 people one day while he was back on leave from Kazakhstan, so they sent him $1.25 million severance pay. He already had made millions. He’s a multimillionaire retired, and he’s in his fifties.\n\n Phil went out to Hollywood. When he was a teenager, he played at Fridays. But he and his friends weren’t old enough to drive, so I would drive them down to the nightclub, where they would play, and I would sit in there for the evening. He would always do the same thing, it was so cute. The kids got such good vibes living in the Bay Area. No crime. You didn’t have to worry about locking your doors.\n\n At the end when all the applause was down he’d say, “And now I’d like you to meet my mother.” Now how many teenage kids would do that? Somebody took this picture. Here. I just was so proud of him because I can’t imagine teenagers wanting to introduce their mother. I’m the mother. That’s him up on the stage.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s sweet.

[User] After he introduced his mother.

[Assistant]
That’s sweet.

That’s nice.

You raised him right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After he introduced his mother.

[Assistant]
That’s sweet.

That’s nice.

You raised him right.

[User] A lot of it has to do with where you are. If you’re living in Brooklyn, there’s so much crime even now that it’s going to be hard to keep your kids out of trouble. But in a peaceful place like it was down by the Space Center—in those years a lot of adults and a lot of children were smoking pot. It was real easy to buy it by the pound and divide it up between you and all your friends, but nobody got into trouble.\n\n When he grew up, he went to Hollywood and became a bandleader, singer, guitar player, music writer, and did the music for movies. That was his career until he passed away a few years ago, but he had the life he wanted. His father wanted him to be a DuPont engineer.

[Assistant] Yes, of course.

[User] But see, my mother was a concert pianist, so it sort of runs in the family.

[Assistant] I kind of figured, since you mentioned your brother.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But see, my mother was a concert pianist, so it sort of runs in the family.

[Assistant] I kind of figured, since you mentioned your brother.

[User] Yes, you’ll have to look him up sometime. I’ll give you his name.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Anyhow, that’s what I felt about Nassau Bay. Where we lived in Lewiston, New York, you can hear the queen’s band playing in Canada on Sundays from our backyard. The town was minute, about six stores, period, so it was a good atmosphere for kids too. I was lucky; we never lived any place that was crime-loaded.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of restaurants or places to shop when you moved to Nassau Bay? Or did you go up into Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you’ll have to look him up sometime. I’ll give you his name.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Anyhow, that’s what I felt about Nassau Bay. Where we lived in Lewiston, New York, you can hear the queen’s band playing in Canada on Sundays from our backyard. The town was minute, about six stores, period, so it was a good atmosphere for kids too. I was lucky; we never lived any place that was crime-loaded.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of restaurants or places to shop when you moved to Nassau Bay? Or did you go up into Houston?

[User] Honey, I bought my clothes at Neiman Marcus.

[Assistant] Oh, so I guess you went to The Galleria. Or was The Galleria even around then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyhow, that’s what I felt about Nassau Bay. Where we lived in Lewiston, New York, you can hear the queen’s band playing in Canada on Sundays from our backyard. The town was minute, about six stores, period, so it was a good atmosphere for kids too. I was lucky; we never lived any place that was crime-loaded.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of restaurants or places to shop when you moved to Nassau Bay? Or did you go up into Houston?

[User] Honey, I bought my clothes at Neiman Marcus.

[Assistant] Oh, so I guess you went to The Galleria. Or was The Galleria even around then?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, it was The Galleria.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, it was The Galleria.

[User] I had to dress fancy because I was always getting my picture taken, and I would not pay for advertising. I had this woman in the adult department, smaller lady department, on this corner upstairs, Mrs. Shepard. She would call me, and she’d say, “Ardis, this is Mrs. Shepard.”\n\n “Hi, Mrs. Shepard.”\n\n “We just got some new clothes in, and I think there may be something that you would like.”\n\n I would go down, and she would have them hanging in a dressing room. If I’d say, “I don’t think I like that,” she says, “My dear, please just try it on.” She always would pick out things. See, I was busy. I couldn’t spend all day shopping like my other friends that lived there. She’d pick stuff out, and I’d go down and buy it.\n\n There was another store on the way into town on that side, a big shopping place. I think it’s not there anymore, where I bought most of the kids’ clothes.

[Assistant] Gulfgate Mall?

[User] Yes. The grocery store was fine. Downtown on the other side of town was a little Italian market. I loved to cook Italian food. I’d been to Italy. I loved the people and the food.\n\n When you walked in, there was a wooden barrel inside the door and it was filled with snails still in their shells, escargots. I’d always buy a few dozen of those and other things. The funniest part about it, when I’d get them home, you put them in warm water, and that little sealed part melts away, and they wake up. I’d let the kids stick them on the wall in the kitchen, and they’d be all crawling. We had fun, once I got divorced.

[Assistant] When did you divorce?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to dress fancy because I was always getting my picture taken, and I would not pay for advertising. I had this woman in the adult department, smaller lady department, on this corner upstairs, Mrs. Shepard. She would call me, and she’d say, “Ardis, this is Mrs. Shepard.”\n\n “Hi, Mrs. Shepard.”\n\n “We just got some new clothes in, and I think there may be something that you would like.”\n\n I would go down, and she would have them hanging in a dressing room. If I’d say, “I don’t think I like that,” she says, “My dear, please just try it on.” She always would pick out things. See, I was busy. I couldn’t spend all day shopping like my other friends that lived there. She’d pick stuff out, and I’d go down and buy it.\n\n There was another store on the way into town on that side, a big shopping place. I think it’s not there anymore, where I bought most of the kids’ clothes.

[Assistant] Gulfgate Mall?

[User] Yes. The grocery store was fine. Downtown on the other side of town was a little Italian market. I loved to cook Italian food. I’d been to Italy. I loved the people and the food.\n\n When you walked in, there was a wooden barrel inside the door and it was filled with snails still in their shells, escargots. I’d always buy a few dozen of those and other things. The funniest part about it, when I’d get them home, you put them in warm water, and that little sealed part melts away, and they wake up. I’d let the kids stick them on the wall in the kitchen, and they’d be all crawling. We had fun, once I got divorced.

[Assistant] When did you divorce?

[User] Heck. My daughter was 19, and I was 19 years older than her. If you add that up, I was born in ’32, and you would have the answer. Can you figure that out?

[Assistant] Is that ’70? I think ’70.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The grocery store was fine. Downtown on the other side of town was a little Italian market. I loved to cook Italian food. I’d been to Italy. I loved the people and the food.\n\n When you walked in, there was a wooden barrel inside the door and it was filled with snails still in their shells, escargots. I’d always buy a few dozen of those and other things. The funniest part about it, when I’d get them home, you put them in warm water, and that little sealed part melts away, and they wake up. I’d let the kids stick them on the wall in the kitchen, and they’d be all crawling. We had fun, once I got divorced.

[Assistant] When did you divorce?

[User] Heck. My daughter was 19, and I was 19 years older than her. If you add that up, I was born in ’32, and you would have the answer. Can you figure that out?

[Assistant] Is that ’70? I think ’70.

[User] I never pay any attention to dates. I’m sorry.

[Assistant] That’s okay. I’m just wondering the time period, because you said you were the single woman living in the neighborhood. Just interesting, because that was a very family-oriented [neighborhood].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Heck. My daughter was 19, and I was 19 years older than her. If you add that up, I was born in ’32, and you would have the answer. Can you figure that out?

[Assistant] Is that ’70? I think ’70.

[User] I never pay any attention to dates. I’m sorry.

[Assistant] That’s okay. I’m just wondering the time period, because you said you were the single woman living in the neighborhood. Just interesting, because that was a very family-oriented [neighborhood].

[User] When I first moved there I was married.

[Assistant]
Right.

You mentioned you were a friend of Al Bean’s, but you mentioned other friends as well. Who were some of your friends? Were they all from NASA? Or were they artists like you? Who were some of the folks that would come over, and you would have dinner parties with or go out to lunch with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never pay any attention to dates. I’m sorry.

[Assistant] That’s okay. I’m just wondering the time period, because you said you were the single woman living in the neighborhood. Just interesting, because that was a very family-oriented [neighborhood].

[User] When I first moved there I was married.

[Assistant]
Right.

You mentioned you were a friend of Al Bean’s, but you mentioned other friends as well. Who were some of your friends? Were they all from NASA? Or were they artists like you? Who were some of the folks that would come over, and you would have dinner parties with or go out to lunch with?

[User] When I first moved there I had a lot of DuPont people. I had done the same kind of a deal other places. I like to cook very gourmet. I don’t do it as much now because my dog doesn’t eat that stuff. I’d have dinner parties. All the ladies would wear long dresses, and it was all very fun and very formal.\n\n The dining room, the chairs were all Queen Anne. I’d bought them in Liverpool, England, when I was on one of my trips to England. The dining room table was sort of Queen Anne style, and I’d bought it from the people who had owned the Victorian house that I had. You could put in these leaves, so it could be big. I’d learned a lot of lessons. My mother did a lot of entertaining.\n\n One of the things I would do is I’d take a little piece of paper, and I would write different subjects on it. I would put it under my spoon. If the conversation went completely silent and everybody’s looking like, “What are we going to talk about,” I’d pick the next thing on the [list] and say, “Well, what do you think about so-and-so?” I had all these tricks to make the parties, because some of them with the DuPont people were quite boring.

[Assistant] What about the NASA people or the artists that would come over? Were they more engaging?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve done so many shows and traveled on planes so much. Of course when I built this house every Friday I paid off the workers so that when the last guy left I owned it. All this I’ve done as a little artist. The patch thing, to get back to that, that was just as a fun little sweet thing to do for some girls. Usually when people want to talk about it, “Hey, it’s not about me, it’s about them.” It really is.

[Assistant] Did you get to know Sue Bean very well, being such a good friend of Alan?

[User] Yes, and when the mikes are turned off I’ll tell you something about that. Yes, we were friends.

[Assistant] I had a couple of other questions that I’ve been thinking about. I wanted to get your take on it. One of them is I think that the women who moved to Clear Lake really helped to create and build that community because the guys were always gone. They were busy working on the space program, or I’m guessing in your husband’s case working at DuPont. I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that.

[User] Tell me the first part. The women were doing what?

[Assistant] Really helping to build the community. When they got there there wasn’t much there, and they were building these homes, building a life. Their husbands were off working at NASA. Is that what you witnessed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and when the mikes are turned off I’ll tell you something about that. Yes, we were friends.

[Assistant] I had a couple of other questions that I’ve been thinking about. I wanted to get your take on it. One of them is I think that the women who moved to Clear Lake really helped to create and build that community because the guys were always gone. They were busy working on the space program, or I’m guessing in your husband’s case working at DuPont. I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that.

[User] Tell me the first part. The women were doing what?

[Assistant] Really helping to build the community. When they got there there wasn’t much there, and they were building these homes, building a life. Their husbands were off working at NASA. Is that what you witnessed?

[User] No, when I got there almost every lot was already finished and people were living there. There were a few on the lakeside, the big lake, whatever that big water is as you come in. The grocery store is there, and that water that’s out there. There were a few places to build. But it was finished.

[Assistant] Did you get a sense of the community being unified behind the Apollo Program, the Moon program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tell me the first part. The women were doing what?

[Assistant] Really helping to build the community. When they got there there wasn’t much there, and they were building these homes, building a life. Their husbands were off working at NASA. Is that what you witnessed?

[User] No, when I got there almost every lot was already finished and people were living there. There were a few on the lakeside, the big lake, whatever that big water is as you come in. The grocery store is there, and that water that’s out there. There were a few places to build. But it was finished.

[Assistant] Did you get a sense of the community being unified behind the Apollo Program, the Moon program?

[User] I felt like it was, but it’s just a feeling. People didn’t go up and say, “I’m unified.”

[Assistant] Right. What gave you that feeling? What do you think created that or caused that in that community, in that space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, when I got there almost every lot was already finished and people were living there. There were a few on the lakeside, the big lake, whatever that big water is as you come in. The grocery store is there, and that water that’s out there. There were a few places to build. But it was finished.

[Assistant] Did you get a sense of the community being unified behind the Apollo Program, the Moon program?

[User] I felt like it was, but it’s just a feeling. People didn’t go up and say, “I’m unified.”

[Assistant] Right. What gave you that feeling? What do you think created that or caused that in that community, in that space?

[User] A lot of people worked there. Most of my students worked there or flew there. It was just all about space there.

[Assistant] Did you end up going to a church when you moved to that area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I felt like it was, but it’s just a feeling. People didn’t go up and say, “I’m unified.”

[Assistant] Right. What gave you that feeling? What do you think created that or caused that in that community, in that space?

[User] A lot of people worked there. Most of my students worked there or flew there. It was just all about space there.

[Assistant] Did you end up going to a church when you moved to that area?

[User] I had always gone to a church before I moved down there. My grandfather was a Methodist minister, so it was a very heavy thing in our family. I don’t know why, but I just did not find a church that I felt like I wanted to be part of when I got down there. It didn’t stop me from being serious about being a Christian.\n\n When I moved over here, people have asked me, “What church do you go to?”\n\n I say, “I don’t go to church, I live in one.” Because when I got ready to build this house I found out that they were getting ready to tear down Incarnate Word Convent in San Antonio, which was built in 1889, and I went over and made a deal with Sister Rosita. She gave me a few days, more than a week, to go and tear out whatever I wanted, and then I would give a donation. All these windows, these doors, the altar rail, the floors. More stuff all over the house was all part of Incarnate Word Convent. You can see that doorway is from a house from about 1920 [points] versus if you look over at that door, 1889.

[Assistant] That was a great deal you made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of people worked there. Most of my students worked there or flew there. It was just all about space there.

[Assistant] Did you end up going to a church when you moved to that area?

[User] I had always gone to a church before I moved down there. My grandfather was a Methodist minister, so it was a very heavy thing in our family. I don’t know why, but I just did not find a church that I felt like I wanted to be part of when I got down there. It didn’t stop me from being serious about being a Christian.\n\n When I moved over here, people have asked me, “What church do you go to?”\n\n I say, “I don’t go to church, I live in one.” Because when I got ready to build this house I found out that they were getting ready to tear down Incarnate Word Convent in San Antonio, which was built in 1889, and I went over and made a deal with Sister Rosita. She gave me a few days, more than a week, to go and tear out whatever I wanted, and then I would give a donation. All these windows, these doors, the altar rail, the floors. More stuff all over the house was all part of Incarnate Word Convent. You can see that doorway is from a house from about 1920 [points] versus if you look over at that door, 1889.

[Assistant] That was a great deal you made.

[User] I lost a lot of weight in there. I’ll tell you I had a couple of big strong guys, but I worked my little butt [off]. I lost about a pound a day every day I was over there, trying to get stuff out. The table they used to cut the habits out is now my dining room table. I’ll show you around, if you want to see it.

[Assistant] Yes, I’d like to see it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had always gone to a church before I moved down there. My grandfather was a Methodist minister, so it was a very heavy thing in our family. I don’t know why, but I just did not find a church that I felt like I wanted to be part of when I got down there. It didn’t stop me from being serious about being a Christian.\n\n When I moved over here, people have asked me, “What church do you go to?”\n\n I say, “I don’t go to church, I live in one.” Because when I got ready to build this house I found out that they were getting ready to tear down Incarnate Word Convent in San Antonio, which was built in 1889, and I went over and made a deal with Sister Rosita. She gave me a few days, more than a week, to go and tear out whatever I wanted, and then I would give a donation. All these windows, these doors, the altar rail, the floors. More stuff all over the house was all part of Incarnate Word Convent. You can see that doorway is from a house from about 1920 [points] versus if you look over at that door, 1889.

[Assistant] That was a great deal you made.

[User] I lost a lot of weight in there. I’ll tell you I had a couple of big strong guys, but I worked my little butt [off]. I lost about a pound a day every day I was over there, trying to get stuff out. The table they used to cut the habits out is now my dining room table. I’ll show you around, if you want to see it.

[Assistant] Yes, I’d like to see it.

[User] But back to Nassau Bay. If I had just made a dream in my head, I couldn’t have thought of a better place to have my family, if I had to leave Lewiston, New York.

[Assistant] Why would you say it was such a great place for your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lost a lot of weight in there. I’ll tell you I had a couple of big strong guys, but I worked my little butt [off]. I lost about a pound a day every day I was over there, trying to get stuff out. The table they used to cut the habits out is now my dining room table. I’ll show you around, if you want to see it.

[Assistant] Yes, I’d like to see it.

[User] But back to Nassau Bay. If I had just made a dream in my head, I couldn’t have thought of a better place to have my family, if I had to leave Lewiston, New York.

[Assistant] Why would you say it was such a great place for your family?

[User] Because there was no crime. People were friendly. There were no traffic jams unless you got on the Gulf Freeway. My view was of the lake out the front. It just was a good place for kids to grow up.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any problems with tour buses coming in wanting to see the home of Al Bean or some of the other astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But back to Nassau Bay. If I had just made a dream in my head, I couldn’t have thought of a better place to have my family, if I had to leave Lewiston, New York.

[Assistant] Why would you say it was such a great place for your family?

[User] Because there was no crime. People were friendly. There were no traffic jams unless you got on the Gulf Freeway. My view was of the lake out the front. It just was a good place for kids to grow up.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any problems with tour buses coming in wanting to see the home of Al Bean or some of the other astronauts?

[User] No. The community would ask me, the garden club and other [groups], they’d do house tours. I think they made money doing them, I’m not sure, and they would ask if they could put my house on the tour. I would let them. Because people knew who I was, I’d have crowds coming through. There’d be someone standing in each room to make sure there weren’t shoplifters and to explain the different things that were in that room.\n\n Then I’d have something that I had made on the back porch, some Christmas decorations hanging on strings from the ceiling, that they could purchase. I didn’t take the money, I gave it to the garden club or whatever it was. That was my giving back to my community, because they were a pain in the neck if you want to know the truth.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were divorced, and you were the only single woman. Did you feel like you may have been the only feminist in the area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The community would ask me, the garden club and other [groups], they’d do house tours. I think they made money doing them, I’m not sure, and they would ask if they could put my house on the tour. I would let them. Because people knew who I was, I’d have crowds coming through. There’d be someone standing in each room to make sure there weren’t shoplifters and to explain the different things that were in that room.\n\n Then I’d have something that I had made on the back porch, some Christmas decorations hanging on strings from the ceiling, that they could purchase. I didn’t take the money, I gave it to the garden club or whatever it was. That was my giving back to my community, because they were a pain in the neck if you want to know the truth.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were divorced, and you were the only single woman. Did you feel like you may have been the only feminist in the area?

[User] I never even thought about feminists.

[Assistant] No? Okay.

[User] I don’t think that was an issue back then.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you.

The only thing, you were talking about those tours. I was just curious why they wanted to use your house? Was it because of the antiques and the way you had it decorated? Or was it because you were the artist and people would come to see?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never even thought about feminists.

[Assistant] No? Okay.

[User] I don’t think that was an issue back then.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you.

The only thing, you were talking about those tours. I was just curious why they wanted to use your house? Was it because of the antiques and the way you had it decorated? Or was it because you were the artist and people would come to see?

[User] Probably all of the above, because people that had been to parties at my house knew about paintings that were hanging on the walls and artwork and eighteenth century furniture. My house was more interesting inside than a whole lot of the [subdivision].

[Assistant] That’s what I was wondering.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think that was an issue back then.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you.

The only thing, you were talking about those tours. I was just curious why they wanted to use your house? Was it because of the antiques and the way you had it decorated? Or was it because you were the artist and people would come to see?

[User] Probably all of the above, because people that had been to parties at my house knew about paintings that were hanging on the walls and artwork and eighteenth century furniture. My house was more interesting inside than a whole lot of the [subdivision].

[Assistant] That’s what I was wondering.

[User] I’m thinking of one of the astronauts’ wives I won’t mention right now, that had a house sort of similar to mine. Run-of-the-mill furniture, nothing interesting, just stuff. A lot of the houses were like that. Mine was always like this, wherever you looked there was something that might interest you. That was probably part of it.

[Assistant] That’s what I was thinking, at that time period the style of homes and the furniture was very different than what you have. It was more that midcentury [style].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably all of the above, because people that had been to parties at my house knew about paintings that were hanging on the walls and artwork and eighteenth century furniture. My house was more interesting inside than a whole lot of the [subdivision].

[Assistant] That’s what I was wondering.

[User] I’m thinking of one of the astronauts’ wives I won’t mention right now, that had a house sort of similar to mine. Run-of-the-mill furniture, nothing interesting, just stuff. A lot of the houses were like that. Mine was always like this, wherever you looked there was something that might interest you. That was probably part of it.

[Assistant] That’s what I was thinking, at that time period the style of homes and the furniture was very different than what you have. It was more that midcentury [style].

[User] See, I learned about collecting antiques when I was a little kid. We would go back from up North to Oklahoma and stop at antique stores. On the way home, I would be sitting with a table leg sticking out over where I was sitting. We’d be packed. I learned. Before I was 12, I could spot something and tell you about when and where it was from, which I guess most kids can’t.\n\n I started collecting early on, as soon as I got married. My first piece was a disaster, and I learned a lesson. I bought a table with a marble top, took it to my dad’s house. “Dad, I got an antique.” He comes running out all excited. He looks at it, and he goes [makes face]. I looked at it, and I said, “Oh my gosh, it’s Victorian.” I kept the marble top, and I put it on a piano bench for a coffee table. I threw the table in the garbage. I learned. The beginning of Victorian is—after that it’s a no-no if you’re a serious antique collector.

[Assistant]
Interesting.

I didn’t know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My favorite things are around the eighteenth century, 1800s, a little before, which is like that piece over there [points] with a cabriole leg. Then that’s transitional, that piece there [points], where it’s still curvy a little bit. Louis XVI has a straight round leg, and I don’t like that.\n\n I was fortunate enough, during my first marriage, my father-in-law was sent to England to be the head of Vauxhall Motors. General Motors owned it. That was the biggest car company in England. He had a Vauxhall Viscount and a chauffeur and the whole nine yards. He would send tickets for me to go with my children and spend weeks at a time.\n\n His chauffeur, after he’d take Pop to work, would come pick me up, and we would go to junk shops. That’s what they called antique shops. They were antique shops but they call them junk shops. Have you been there?

[Assistant] No.

[User] We’d go to auctions, for example, and I never could figure out the pounds. I’d tell Jim in dollars how high I would want to go on a piece. He’d stand behind me, and he’d bid. Then sometimes he’d tap me on the shoulder, and he’d lean over. “We’ve got it, ma’am.” Then the company would send a lorry out to pick it up. I’d buy stuff all over the place, top to bottom, up and down. General Motors, at their expense, would ship it all back to my house in the U.S. Many things that you see in this house I got that way. It was so inexpensive.

[Assistant] The other thing I thought about, did your kids belong to Scouts since your father was so involved in Boy Scouts?

[User] Both my boys were Scouts, yes.

[Assistant] Were the Scout leaders men in the neighborhoods or other people that worked for NASA? Were they involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’d go to auctions, for example, and I never could figure out the pounds. I’d tell Jim in dollars how high I would want to go on a piece. He’d stand behind me, and he’d bid. Then sometimes he’d tap me on the shoulder, and he’d lean over. “We’ve got it, ma’am.” Then the company would send a lorry out to pick it up. I’d buy stuff all over the place, top to bottom, up and down. General Motors, at their expense, would ship it all back to my house in the U.S. Many things that you see in this house I got that way. It was so inexpensive.

[Assistant] The other thing I thought about, did your kids belong to Scouts since your father was so involved in Boy Scouts?

[User] Both my boys were Scouts, yes.

[Assistant] Were the Scout leaders men in the neighborhoods or other people that worked for NASA? Were they involved?

[User] Oh, no. It was mostly when we lived up North that they were in scouting. I know my oldest son went on an overnight camping trip with a sleeping bag left over from my dad. It was in the middle of the winter, and he was in the snow in this thing. They had interesting times.

[Assistant] When you came down to Nassau Bay, they weren’t as involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both my boys were Scouts, yes.

[Assistant] Were the Scout leaders men in the neighborhoods or other people that worked for NASA? Were they involved?

[User] Oh, no. It was mostly when we lived up North that they were in scouting. I know my oldest son went on an overnight camping trip with a sleeping bag left over from my dad. It was in the middle of the winter, and he was in the snow in this thing. They had interesting times.

[Assistant] When you came down to Nassau Bay, they weren’t as involved?

[User] No. Not as involved.

[Assistant]
I was just curious. We know some of the—

Some of the wives were heading those up.

—wives were doing that and some of the husbands too. Some of the astronauts were somewhat involved in scouting. Like you said, so many of them were Boy Scouts too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. It was mostly when we lived up North that they were in scouting. I know my oldest son went on an overnight camping trip with a sleeping bag left over from my dad. It was in the middle of the winter, and he was in the snow in this thing. They had interesting times.

[Assistant] When you came down to Nassau Bay, they weren’t as involved?

[User] No. Not as involved.

[Assistant]
I was just curious. We know some of the—

Some of the wives were heading those up.

—wives were doing that and some of the husbands too. Some of the astronauts were somewhat involved in scouting. Like you said, so many of them were Boy Scouts too.

[User] The first group of astronauts were all Eagle Scouts. My dad was very proud of that.

[Assistant] You mentioned taking your kids out on the front lawn and pointing out Apollo 12. Do you have any memories of any of the other missions from Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Not as involved.

[Assistant]
I was just curious. We know some of the—

Some of the wives were heading those up.

—wives were doing that and some of the husbands too. Some of the astronauts were somewhat involved in scouting. Like you said, so many of them were Boy Scouts too.

[User] The first group of astronauts were all Eagle Scouts. My dad was very proud of that.

[Assistant] You mentioned taking your kids out on the front lawn and pointing out Apollo 12. Do you have any memories of any of the other missions from Apollo?

[User] That’s the only time we ever went out and looked up. It was on TV, and so I said, “Come on, let’s go look.” If I’d seen some other missions that you could actually see that they were up there I would have taken them out. They were very interested in all of the space stuff. I think most kids that lived there, how could they resist being interested?

[Assistant] Did you ever get to go over to NASA and tour? See what was going on over there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean in Nassau Bay are you talking about? Or at the Space Center?

[Assistant] No, over at the Space Center. When Apollo 11 might have been going on or another mission. Did you ever go over there?

[User] No. What I’d do is I’d get invited to go over the night before and take pictures, and then the day of the launch I’d go over and there were people all over the place. There were bleachers for the important people. I’d sit usually up at the top of that and take pictures of them.\n\n If I spotted some famous person in another [area], I’d say, “Sir, may I take your picture?” I was all over the place. They had boxes down there, so that when the launch went off your camera would automatically take pictures. I could be with others going around. One of the funniest things that ever happened, I was on my way out. There was this big wide walkway, and a whole bunch of people were coming. They were trying to interview some guy in the front. I was on the side as they came [by]. I walked over, and I said, “May I take your picture?” He starts doing all this. [Demonstrates] I said, “And what’s your name?” He looked at me. He was the governor of California.

[Assistant] Oops.

[User] I didn’t recognize him. That put him in his place.

[Assistant] How did you get the invites to the splashdown parties from the wives? Just because you knew all those folks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it could be about a couple ofthings. Anything to do with looted art, cultural restitution, that has been a major area of my personal and professional focus, I've had a number of publications in the area, I've had the opportunity to participate in international forums on the topic as part ofthe American delegation to these conferences ...so, anything in that area, certainly. Archival management, definitely. Those are the kind of areas that I think that would make sense to have me involved.

[Assistant] Talk for a moment about your work at the University of Maryland, where you've been an adjunct professor for many years now. Your work there has certainly shaped a number ofNARA employees, because we tend to cherry-pick them over here fairly frequently. How did the idea of that management course come to fruition for you?

[User] That I really owe to Frank Burke. Frank was in charge over there of the archival program and he suggested to me that maybe I might want to come and teach a summer course on management. I thought, "well, OK", so with some hesitation, I started and gradually that evolved into a focus on managing cultural institutions, and then kind of more zeroing in on now managing archives. And so, the credit for the concept and the credit for the idea goes to Frank Burke.

[Assistant] I know at least two NARA staff members who met in your class and married ...

[User] Yes, and have had children as a result ofit! Now that's really touching people.

[Assistant] And even my wife remarks about when she was in your class, as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I really owe to Frank Burke. Frank was in charge over there of the archival program and he suggested to me that maybe I might want to come and teach a summer course on management. I thought, "well, OK", so with some hesitation, I started and gradually that evolved into a focus on managing cultural institutions, and then kind of more zeroing in on now managing archives. And so, the credit for the concept and the credit for the idea goes to Frank Burke.

[Assistant] I know at least two NARA staff members who met in your class and married ...

[User] Yes, and have had children as a result ofit! Now that's really touching people.

[Assistant] And even my wife remarks about when she was in your class, as well.

[User] Really? Ok, when was she in there?

[Assistant] She had her library degree many years ago, probably in the late 80's early 90's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and have had children as a result ofit! Now that's really touching people.

[Assistant] And even my wife remarks about when she was in your class, as well.

[User] Really? Ok, when was she in there?

[Assistant] She had her library degree many years ago, probably in the late 80's early 90's.

[User] Oh ...ok well I started in 90, so ...

[Assistant] What do you feel are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes! You're quite welcome!

[Assistant] You've talked a little bit about, sort of, NARA's reputation with the federal agencies...

[User] ....Mmmhmm ....

[Assistant] ... and you've certainly talked and commented about the evolution of that relationship. How do you see our reputation now, and where do we need to be in the future?

[User] Oh, I think it's much stronger now, in two areas. One is records management, which I mentioned; I think we're seen as, really serious partners; as an agency trying to provide guidance, trying to get ahead of all the technological curves that keep coming up as far as communications goes; doing interesting projects that have relevance to agencies; and taking initiatives like the Big Bucket schedules, which while controversial here at NARA, are well received, actually, in the federal community. I think, in the declassification arena, I think we are seen as having successfully stepped up to the NDC plate and so we've got now the authority that we have never had; not complete, not absolute, far from it. Agencies decide ultimately on whether an item is classified or not, but we're running the process. We are not, you know, the poor cousins and so we are not only at the table, we're at the head ofthe table and that's an incredible change. So, I would see in the future, building on that and just, you know, one of the Transformation goals is to be an agency ofleaders and I think in these areas, we need to continue that.

[Assistant] NARA seems to get its fair share of knocks in the press. As you say with the Clinton hard drive, we get a lot of bad press for things that go wrong. C<,rtainly we're doing some things right. What are we doing right? What should we be getting better credit for? What could we be doing differently to help improve the reputation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In March of 1974 ...

[Assistant] ... Isn't that when you started?

[User] It is, it is indeed. Well, I think I mentioned what I was told. Umm ... that's a hard question because I'm trying to I guess imagine myself as a mature professional at that point in time...

[Assistant] ... What is the piece of advice that you wished you had had?

[User] Oh, ok, ok ....

[Assistant] ... What would you tell the new hire today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is, it is indeed. Well, I think I mentioned what I was told. Umm ... that's a hard question because I'm trying to I guess imagine myself as a mature professional at that point in time...

[Assistant] ... What is the piece of advice that you wished you had had?

[User] Oh, ok, ok ....

[Assistant] ... What would you tell the new hire today?

[User] No one told me, no one told us, how important of a place we were coming to. No one talked about the mission. I'll be perfectly frank. I don't think many of the people here, at that point in time, thought this was an important place. I think it was considered and felt to be a backwater. I think many people felt they were in a backwater. I think a lot of managers at that time felt that their careers were really second best to being academics. I never wanted to be one so this was not a problem of mine. No one talked about the mission. Why it's important to work at the National Archives. Why it's worth a lifetime of commitment. That's what was missing and that was huge.

[Assistant] What does the 30 second commercial for the National Archives sound like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, ok, ok ....

[Assistant] ... What would you tell the new hire today?

[User] No one told me, no one told us, how important of a place we were coming to. No one talked about the mission. I'll be perfectly frank. I don't think many of the people here, at that point in time, thought this was an important place. I think it was considered and felt to be a backwater. I think many people felt they were in a backwater. I think a lot of managers at that time felt that their careers were really second best to being academics. I never wanted to be one so this was not a problem of mine. No one talked about the mission. Why it's important to work at the National Archives. Why it's worth a lifetime of commitment. That's what was missing and that was huge.

[Assistant] What does the 30 second commercial for the National Archives sound like?

[User] Well,jingles and those kinds of things are not my strength but I would say it somehow has to connect the citizen, the viewer, to the Archives. You know, we say, and it's true, that everyone's in the National Archives. And I think that's the way to reach people. I leave it to the marketing gurus about how to package that but I think that's the point.

[Assistant] Ifthere was some story that you wanted to tell, that you didn't think you've had an opportunity to tell over the last hour or so, what's missing from this interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well,jingles and those kinds of things are not my strength but I would say it somehow has to connect the citizen, the viewer, to the Archives. You know, we say, and it's true, that everyone's in the National Archives. And I think that's the way to reach people. I leave it to the marketing gurus about how to package that but I think that's the point.

[Assistant] Ifthere was some story that you wanted to tell, that you didn't think you've had an opportunity to tell over the last hour or so, what's missing from this interview?

[User] Well, you know, many years ago when I working out at Suitland doing my dissertation, doing research, going through gazillion boxes, thousands of them, I came across, I had a box and it was material obviously seized by the Nazi secret police and obviously captured by the American Army. And I was just going through it, you know, just going through it and there was a diary of a man who, in Berlin, who was waiting to be arrested the next day and that would be the end of him and suddenly all of these boxes and folders and all the policy I was trying to track about what we did with looted property and all that, became human, it became human and that had a really strong impact on me. And so, we kind of can lose track of that... the human dimension.

[Assistant] And that's important?

[User] It's critical.

[Assistant] Well, those are all my questions. Thank you very much for sitting with us and I think that we've had a really great interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's critical.

[Assistant] Well, those are all my questions. Thank you very much for sitting with us and I think that we've had a really great interview.

[User] I appreciate it and I've enjoyed every bit of it. Thank you.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] Did you get everything covered you wanted, John?

[Assistant] I think, yeah I went through all of my questions ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I appreciate it and I've enjoyed every bit of it. Thank you.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] Did you get everything covered you wanted, John?

[Assistant] I think, yeah I went through all of my questions ...

[User] ...They were good questions. They were very good questions. I don't think there is anything that I did not say that I wanted to say. Um ... I...

[Assistant] ... You didn't say anything that you want to restrict?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you get everything covered you wanted, John?

[Assistant] I think, yeah I went through all of my questions ...

[User] ...They were good questions. They were very good questions. I don't think there is anything that I did not say that I wanted to say. Um ... I...

[Assistant] ... You didn't say anything that you want to restrict?

[User] No. No, actually, not at all. I thought the thing on the three archivists was a challenge, but I think I did them justice ...

[Assistant] ...That was a very diplomatic explanation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ...They were good questions. They were very good questions. I don't think there is anything that I did not say that I wanted to say. Um ... I...

[Assistant] ... You didn't say anything that you want to restrict?

[User] No. No, actually, not at all. I thought the thing on the three archivists was a challenge, but I think I did them justice ...

[Assistant] ...That was a very diplomatic explanation.

[User] Well, it's true. How effective they've been ...

[Assistant] ... We're still recording ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hi. Okay. The year before I was in the Peace Corps, I was on the George McGovern Shriver campaign. I was national campaign staff in New Jersey, and I had started out in western Pennsylvania on the campaign staff. And then we followed the campaign. I went to New Jersey, I went to New York, I went to Michigan. And I was supposed to have gone to Keene, New Hampshire, but it snowed that day, so I didn't get to go to the, to the primary for that day. So that was what I was doing that up to November. And then I applied and the Malaysia group was going in September. So I just kind of hung around there for a few months. I was at home and I was working and I was waiting to go into Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to, uh, earlier in your life, um. Where did you grow up?

[User] Um, Vandergrift, Pennsylvania, a small town near Pittsburgh. And my dad worked in a mill. My mother was a homemaker.

[Assistant] And what size family did you have?

[User] I have two sisters, and I have a brother who's 16 years younger than I am.

[Assistant] The, uh. Did you really have any kind of international experience or exposure, you know, during the time you were growing up with your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, Vandergrift, Pennsylvania, a small town near Pittsburgh. And my dad worked in a mill. My mother was a homemaker.

[Assistant] And what size family did you have?

[User] I have two sisters, and I have a brother who's 16 years younger than I am.

[Assistant] The, uh. Did you really have any kind of international experience or exposure, you know, during the time you were growing up with your family?

[User] No, not at all. No. My aunt had, you know, gone to Europe on, you know, one of those trips, but that was the only one that, that ever, you know, left the country in those years. That was in the '60s. So, you know, things were pretty tight in those days. So people didn't, didn't travel that I knew very much about.

[Assistant] So you went to high school in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have two sisters, and I have a brother who's 16 years younger than I am.

[Assistant] The, uh. Did you really have any kind of international experience or exposure, you know, during the time you were growing up with your family?

[User] No, not at all. No. My aunt had, you know, gone to Europe on, you know, one of those trips, but that was the only one that, that ever, you know, left the country in those years. That was in the '60s. So, you know, things were pretty tight in those days. So people didn't, didn't travel that I knew very much about.

[Assistant] So you went to high school in?

[User] The Kiski Area [School District] in Vandergrift, yep.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. During high school, did you study a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all. No. My aunt had, you know, gone to Europe on, you know, one of those trips, but that was the only one that, that ever, you know, left the country in those years. That was in the '60s. So, you know, things were pretty tight in those days. So people didn't, didn't travel that I knew very much about.

[Assistant] So you went to high school in?

[User] The Kiski Area [School District] in Vandergrift, yep.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. During high school, did you study a foreign language?

[User] Oh yeah. I had, I had, what, three years of Spanish and four years of German altogether. And, um, not, not very good at any of them, either of them, I guess.

[Assistant] How about extracurricular activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Kiski Area [School District] in Vandergrift, yep.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. During high school, did you study a foreign language?

[User] Oh yeah. I had, I had, what, three years of Spanish and four years of German altogether. And, um, not, not very good at any of them, either of them, I guess.

[Assistant] How about extracurricular activities?

[User] Well, I was, I was, you know, just determined to go to college. And that was, you know, basically, you know, what I did in those days was, you know, make sure I got a scholarship. So I was a full ride at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

[Assistant] When your family took vacations were, what kind of trips did you take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. I had, I had, what, three years of Spanish and four years of German altogether. And, um, not, not very good at any of them, either of them, I guess.

[Assistant] How about extracurricular activities?

[User] Well, I was, I was, you know, just determined to go to college. And that was, you know, basically, you know, what I did in those days was, you know, make sure I got a scholarship. So I was a full ride at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

[Assistant] When your family took vacations were, what kind of trips did you take?

[User] We never took vacations. My dad worked. You know, there was, there was a long period where there wasn't any money for things at all, much less going places. So.

[Assistant] Were you the first in your family to go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was, I was, you know, just determined to go to college. And that was, you know, basically, you know, what I did in those days was, you know, make sure I got a scholarship. So I was a full ride at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

[Assistant] When your family took vacations were, what kind of trips did you take?

[User] We never took vacations. My dad worked. You know, there was, there was a long period where there wasn't any money for things at all, much less going places. So.

[Assistant] Were you the first in your family to go to college?

[User] Well, my aunt went to college and my uncles did. So, you know, on that side. On the other side, my dad's side, no. None of, none of his brothers or sisters went to college. But my mother, her sister and her brothers went to college.

[Assistant] Were you thinking when you went into college about a particular career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We never took vacations. My dad worked. You know, there was, there was a long period where there wasn't any money for things at all, much less going places. So.

[Assistant] Were you the first in your family to go to college?

[User] Well, my aunt went to college and my uncles did. So, you know, on that side. On the other side, my dad's side, no. None of, none of his brothers or sisters went to college. But my mother, her sister and her brothers went to college.

[Assistant] Were you thinking when you went into college about a particular career?

[User] Well, I was a biology major, and, you know, I did pretty, I did okay my first two years. And then after that I got involved in student government, and I was having too much fun. So, you know, my grades were okay. I graduated, but, you know, I just wasn't that serious about it. So.

[Assistant] So, uh, in college, uh, extracurricular activities, student government.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my aunt went to college and my uncles did. So, you know, on that side. On the other side, my dad's side, no. None of, none of his brothers or sisters went to college. But my mother, her sister and her brothers went to college.

[Assistant] Were you thinking when you went into college about a particular career?

[User] Well, I was a biology major, and, you know, I did pretty, I did okay my first two years. And then after that I got involved in student government, and I was having too much fun. So, you know, my grades were okay. I graduated, but, you know, I just wasn't that serious about it. So.

[Assistant] So, uh, in college, uh, extracurricular activities, student government.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a biology major, and, you know, I did pretty, I did okay my first two years. And then after that I got involved in student government, and I was having too much fun. So, you know, my grades were okay. I graduated, but, you know, I just wasn't that serious about it. So.

[Assistant] So, uh, in college, uh, extracurricular activities, student government.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And anything else?

[User] Uh, I was in a service sorority. Yeah, that was about it. Yep.

[Assistant] And in the summertime during college, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And anything else?

[User] Uh, I was in a service sorority. Yeah, that was about it. Yep.

[Assistant] And in the summertime during college, what did you do?

[User] I had to work. Yeah, I had to, you know, I had to have money. I mean, I had like, no, no spending money at all. So.

[Assistant] Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I was in a service sorority. Yeah, that was about it. Yep.

[Assistant] And in the summertime during college, what did you do?

[User] I had to work. Yeah, I had to, you know, I had to have money. I mean, I had like, no, no spending money at all. So.

[Assistant] Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I had one friend that did go the year after college. He must have been a year ahead of me. And so everybody always talked about how David had gone. I think he went to Nepal, I believe. So it was kind of interesting. You know, I kind of thought about it from, from that time, when I was a senior in college. And I had friends who had, who were able to go. There was a professor that took, you know, students on trips and, and they were able to go. And so I was always very jealous that they got to go to Germany with the, with the professor. So.

[Assistant] So you thought about the Peace Corps as a way of getting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to work. Yeah, I had to, you know, I had to have money. I mean, I had like, no, no spending money at all. So.

[Assistant] Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I had one friend that did go the year after college. He must have been a year ahead of me. And so everybody always talked about how David had gone. I think he went to Nepal, I believe. So it was kind of interesting. You know, I kind of thought about it from, from that time, when I was a senior in college. And I had friends who had, who were able to go. There was a professor that took, you know, students on trips and, and they were able to go. And so I was always very jealous that they got to go to Germany with the, with the professor. So.

[Assistant] So you thought about the Peace Corps as a way of getting?

[User] I wanted to do, yeah, get away. Yeah, get out, get away. Yeah.

[Assistant] Leave Pennsylvania and see the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had one friend that did go the year after college. He must have been a year ahead of me. And so everybody always talked about how David had gone. I think he went to Nepal, I believe. So it was kind of interesting. You know, I kind of thought about it from, from that time, when I was a senior in college. And I had friends who had, who were able to go. There was a professor that took, you know, students on trips and, and they were able to go. And so I was always very jealous that they got to go to Germany with the, with the professor. So.

[Assistant] So you thought about the Peace Corps as a way of getting?

[User] I wanted to do, yeah, get away. Yeah, get out, get away. Yeah.

[Assistant] Leave Pennsylvania and see the world.

[User] Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Assistant] When, uh, when you applied did you have to take any kind of entrance exam? Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Assistant] When, uh, when you applied did you have to take any kind of entrance exam? Do you remember?

[User] I don't remember anything like that. No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It was all paper, you know, in those days, '72, it was all paper, paperwork. So '71, '72.

[Assistant] Did you express a preference for any particular country?