[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was probably the time I had the bad dream where I had the Russian bear eating on my head that woke me up in a scream. That was probably the easiest one to recall. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Was that here?

[User] Oh, yes, I was at home. It was in the middle of the acceptance test process. We were just under significant amount of stress. We were getting attention all the way up to the administrator. It was just like I just woke up--it was a bear chomping on my head. The symbology was unmistakable. That wasn't necessarily a low point, it was just one of those things going through it.

[Assistant] Having your sleep abruptly stopped and then having a bear chomp on your head, I can see why that [memory] would last for you. That's for sure.

[User] I mean, I've got a fairly forgiving memory, so I've already forgotten all that stuff that was tough.

[Assistant] Was there one of the payloads that seemed to be more challenging than the others to get it ready?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was after I was over there running SESL. I’d have to somehow refresh my memory on that. I don’t know if there’s anything here that would help me do that or not. I don’t think so. I can’t tell you, without going and looking.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I thought about maybe bringing—I’ve still got my reading files from way back. I've got my calendars, too, my office calendars. I thought about bringing those out and having them handy while we were going through this, but I said, “Well, I don’t know if they want to fool with all that.”

[Assistant] Actually, that may be nice, yes.

[User] Well, they're back there, but it would take me a few minutes to—

[Assistant] We can do that later if we need to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought about maybe bringing—I’ve still got my reading files from way back. I've got my calendars, too, my office calendars. I thought about bringing those out and having them handy while we were going through this, but I said, “Well, I don’t know if they want to fool with all that.”

[Assistant] Actually, that may be nice, yes.

[User] Well, they're back there, but it would take me a few minutes to—

[Assistant] We can do that later if we need to.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] We were talking about some of the specific testing going on there before. You mentioned the suits and testing the command module and the lunar module. What other sorts of maybe unusual testing was going on, sort of one-off items or things that were out of the ordinary in terms of things you had to test?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they're back there, but it would take me a few minutes to—

[Assistant] We can do that later if we need to.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] We were talking about some of the specific testing going on there before. You mentioned the suits and testing the command module and the lunar module. What other sorts of maybe unusual testing was going on, sort of one-off items or things that were out of the ordinary in terms of things you had to test?

[User] Well, I’ll tell you a little bit about one program, not very much, but a little bit. One day, I was called, along with Alec—Alec had been made Assistant Deputy Chief of the E&D somehow. He had four divisions under him, four or five divisions, mine, Crew Systems, Propulsion Power, and I forget the other one. I was called up to the director’s office, along with Aleck. What had happened is some guy had shown up with an inquiry about supporting DoD, or somebody, in a test, a major test, and it had a security clearance on it that was higher than—nobody on the Center had a security clearance that high. So they couldn’t talk to anybody about it. [Laughter]\n\n So, eventually they granted that security clearance to a few of us and we got to undertake that program. That was pretty interesting, because we had a whole bunch of people here with it. They didn’t even want people to know who they worked for. The test was very successful, I might say. We made a little money on it.

[Assistant] Can you tell us what it was, or is it still classified?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How, given the eventual scientists talking, given the presentations to say why it’s needed, and then given the costs that went into it and the time that went into it, in your opinion, did it end up being a valuable resource?

[User] Oh, I think it was absolutely essential. Everybody recognized at the time that it probably would be obsolete for use on, say, a Mars mission, but in the meantime, we would learn about how to do it. I think it served its purpose. I think it did very well.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to go in later, even though you had moved on to the other project, and see any of the samples or see them put to use?

[User] No, I moved on. I never bothered going over there. [Laughter] I once hauled a sample up to headquarters. I was going to up on TDY [temporary duty], and somebody asked me to take it up there. I had fun showing it around in the airplane.\n\n Of course, you see lunar samples everywhere you go now, so nothing. Elbert King gave me a lunar sample, a tektite that he said had come from the Moon, but I’m not sure that it did, really. He’s not around. He died here about two years ago, three years ago. I’d like for him to tell me whether he still thinks it came from the Moon.

[Assistant]
Thank you. That’s all the questions I have.

I did actually have one. Looking, we were talking about your experiences with the SESL, what kind of regrets, if any, do you have that you were not given the chance to build the Mark II facility after being connected with SESL for so long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was up in the VIP viewing room. I used to go out every night and I'd look up at the Moon, and I’d say, “I just can’t imagine we’re actually going to put a man there.” I was obviously just as happy as anybody else that we’d done it. We’d had a press conference after our successful lunar module testing, and I spoke at that. We’d been at it so long and we’d worked so hard on it. I say “we,” and I really mean everybody over there at SESL. I was just probably a little overjoyed that we’d passed the test successfully, run the test successfully. So I started out with a statement that, “Well, we’re home free.” [Laughter] And that was a little headline on a little newspaper article that came out the next day, and I got severely chastised for that. There were a few other things to be done in the program. So I looked a little stupid there, but I really meant it.

[Assistant] It’s been a pleasure to be able to get some of your contributions here on tape today and talk with you for these past few hours.

[User] Well, I’m sorry I didn’t prepare a little bit more for that. I’m sure I’ve left something out that’s fairly important, but I won’t dwell on that. I appreciate your asking me to participate in this thing, and I look forward to—are you going to give me a tape on it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Okay, good. I’ll give that to my kids. I like to write, and I was hoping to write. I’ve got a box of stuff from the Lunar Receiving Lab just crammed full of stuff, and I was reluctant to give it up. Jim [JamesM.] Grimwood suggested that the NASA historians would be quite interested in that. What do you guys call the little files that the people keep?

[Assistant] The archives. What you guys keep?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’m sorry I didn’t prepare a little bit more for that. I’m sure I’ve left something out that’s fairly important, but I won’t dwell on that. I appreciate your asking me to participate in this thing, and I look forward to—are you going to give me a tape on it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Okay, good. I’ll give that to my kids. I like to write, and I was hoping to write. I’ve got a box of stuff from the Lunar Receiving Lab just crammed full of stuff, and I was reluctant to give it up. Jim [JamesM.] Grimwood suggested that the NASA historians would be quite interested in that. What do you guys call the little files that the people keep?

[Assistant] The archives. What you guys keep?

[User] Yes. You’ve got a name for it. I can’t remember that either. You don’t know what it is

[Assistant] Good resources. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, good. I’ll give that to my kids. I like to write, and I was hoping to write. I’ve got a box of stuff from the Lunar Receiving Lab just crammed full of stuff, and I was reluctant to give it up. Jim [JamesM.] Grimwood suggested that the NASA historians would be quite interested in that. What do you guys call the little files that the people keep?

[Assistant] The archives. What you guys keep?

[User] Yes. You’ve got a name for it. I can’t remember that either. You don’t know what it is

[Assistant] Good resources. [Laughter]

[User] No, no, no. I forget. There’s another slang name for it. But I was really planning to write a book about that. We’ve talked a bit about it today, but there’s a lot, lot more to it than that. I was reluctant to give up my files. I’ll be glad to lend them to anybody, but I was reluctant to give them up completely to somebody else. Nobody wanted them except on the condition that they could keep them, throw away what they want, I guess, and keep what they think is valuable.

[Assistant] At some point you may want to consider donating them to JSC and to the archives there. Other people have done so, and it would certainly be a valuable place to keep the information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were about … twelve or fourteen computers, and, like I said, the engineers would come in and talk to Roxie. They might even sit on one of the desks in the middle of the room and talk to her. All of us could hear [these conversations]. But there were no male computers. They were all ladies, and most of them were—I would say 50 percent of them were Air Force wives, and so they came and left within a short period of time.…

[Assistant] Did Roxie ever have meetings with you as a group, or was everything done on the individual basis when she communicated information to you? I think we call them today staff meetings or group meetings or hands-on meetings. But she never had—

[User] Never a meeting. My lands, no. [Laughs] No, there were never any meetings. She probably attended meetings at Walt Williams’ direction, … because she was head of that unit, so she would go and report things. I’ve seen photographs of meetings, and she’s always at those meetings. And Mary [V.] Little [Kuhl], I always considered her [an] assistant, because if Roxie wasn’t able to be there, Mary would be there to kind of take her place. The engineers would go see Mary rather than Roxie. But Mary tells me that wasn’t so, so I’m not real sure how the pecking order was.

[Assistant] Was Roxanah the only woman that you know of on the base that had that type of position, whatever that position was? Were there any other women?

[User] On the whole base?

[Assistant] Yes, that were working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never a meeting. My lands, no. [Laughs] No, there were never any meetings. She probably attended meetings at Walt Williams’ direction, … because she was head of that unit, so she would go and report things. I’ve seen photographs of meetings, and she’s always at those meetings. And Mary [V.] Little [Kuhl], I always considered her [an] assistant, because if Roxie wasn’t able to be there, Mary would be there to kind of take her place. The engineers would go see Mary rather than Roxie. But Mary tells me that wasn’t so, so I’m not real sure how the pecking order was.

[Assistant] Was Roxanah the only woman that you know of on the base that had that type of position, whatever that position was? Were there any other women?

[User] On the whole base?

[Assistant] Yes, that were working.

[User] Not in computing. There was a woman draftsman that had a group under her, that would probably be comparable. But as far as research airplanes, no, and, of course, there weren’t the big-frame computers, so we were the big-frame computers.

[Assistant] Now, every day when you’d get ready to leave, you mentioned you turned your work back in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the whole base?

[Assistant] Yes, that were working.

[User] Not in computing. There was a woman draftsman that had a group under her, that would probably be comparable. But as far as research airplanes, no, and, of course, there weren’t the big-frame computers, so we were the big-frame computers.

[Assistant] Now, every day when you’d get ready to leave, you mentioned you turned your work back in.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So nothing was ever left on your desk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in computing. There was a woman draftsman that had a group under her, that would probably be comparable. But as far as research airplanes, no, and, of course, there weren’t the big-frame computers, so we were the big-frame computers.

[Assistant] Now, every day when you’d get ready to leave, you mentioned you turned your work back in.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So nothing was ever left on your desk.

[User] Oh, no. Our desks were clean. Our Friedans were covered, because there might be a quarter-inch of dirt when you came back, and our light boxes were always put away in the bottom of our desks in our drawers. But you didn’t keep anything. You kept your supplies, your pencils, and your scales. You had a twelve-inch scale, a six-inch scale, and you had several French curves that were assigned to you when you came to work, and those you kept in your desk, and a triangle for straight lines and things like that. But, no, we didn’t keep our work in the desk; it was given back to Roxie. And I suppose, looking back on it now, not then, I didn’t know, but looking back at it later, it probably was a good thing to do because if the engineers needed that work, why, then she might get a couple of the girls that lived in the dorm to stay and do the work. So it was probably done for a purpose, and it was a good reason. But we always have to look at it backwards to make sure.

[Assistant] There were women that lived in the dorm that had come out to work at Dryden, and then, of course, there were women like you that were there. Their husbands worked out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So nothing was ever left on your desk.

[User] Oh, no. Our desks were clean. Our Friedans were covered, because there might be a quarter-inch of dirt when you came back, and our light boxes were always put away in the bottom of our desks in our drawers. But you didn’t keep anything. You kept your supplies, your pencils, and your scales. You had a twelve-inch scale, a six-inch scale, and you had several French curves that were assigned to you when you came to work, and those you kept in your desk, and a triangle for straight lines and things like that. But, no, we didn’t keep our work in the desk; it was given back to Roxie. And I suppose, looking back on it now, not then, I didn’t know, but looking back at it later, it probably was a good thing to do because if the engineers needed that work, why, then she might get a couple of the girls that lived in the dorm to stay and do the work. So it was probably done for a purpose, and it was a good reason. But we always have to look at it backwards to make sure.

[Assistant] There were women that lived in the dorm that had come out to work at Dryden, and then, of course, there were women like you that were there. Their husbands worked out there.

[User] And they lived on the base, too. They lived in what was called waring housing, that the Air Force built for [the] servicemen. … They had started to build a few homes in Lancaster. So some of them came from Lancaster, but not very many of them, and, of course, I didn’t live in Lancaster. I lived in Littlerock. So I drove from Littlerock in a car pool.

[Assistant] Were you one of the few that commuted in every day to your group of computers, and did you commute with your husband?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they lived on the base, too. They lived in what was called waring housing, that the Air Force built for [the] servicemen. … They had started to build a few homes in Lancaster. So some of them came from Lancaster, but not very many of them, and, of course, I didn’t live in Lancaster. I lived in Littlerock. So I drove from Littlerock in a car pool.

[Assistant] Were you one of the few that commuted in every day to your group of computers, and did you commute with your husband?

[User] Yes. We had car pools. There were people from that area that would come in, and they would—in fact, most everybody got there by car pools, even those that came from Mojave or Tehachapi or Lancaster, Palmdale area. They all came in car pools, and there was usually five or six in a car pool, depending on the size of your car. But most of the cars in that time period would hold three in the front and three in the back. They [didn’t have] bucket seats [in the front seats].

[Assistant] Did the women ever drive the car pools, or was it always the men? Just curious.

[User] Later on, the women did, because I did. As the place kind of grew—well, I would say that until we moved over into our new location, most of the women lived right there on base with their husbands or lived in the dorm. The girls lived in the dorm, because a lot of them were single [and no other housing was available].

[Assistant] When did your duties change? How long did you do what you were doing when you were first hired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I [worked] under [Tom who reported to Mr. Beeler].

[Assistant] So that was the end of your time with her.

[User] With the computers, yes. I still worked with her, I mean, if I ran into something I didn’t know. The only difference it really meant, I could ask why and what was I doing, and I was told and I was shown. I got taken down and shown the airplanes and what we were studying. If there was a panel on the side of an airplane that vibrated in flight, I was shown that panel, and if it had cracked, why, I was explained how it cracked. So I was in seventh heaven. I knew what I was going to be doing.

[Assistant] Do you believe the information you were getting now could benefit your whole understanding of what you were doing?

[User] Of what I’m doing now?

[Assistant] No, what you were doing then. Did it help you do your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1966, maybe? ’66? ’65?

[Assistant] That’s great. Do you have a copy of the film now?

[User] Yes, and I had them put it on a VCR [videocassette recorder] for me, but it isn’t as nice as the film. And it was black and white because they didn’t have much color then. But that was a fun-type project.

[Assistant] And when did it debut? Did the Center people get to see it?

[User] Oh, yes. They showed it to the Center people. I’m afraid I’m the type that loves to do work behind the scenes, and I don’t want anything, so my name isn’t on it anyplace. Neither is Mr. Fiskan’s. The only name on it anyplace is Joe Walker’s and the actor who narrated it, and I can’t even remember his name without looking. But it was a project that was different than the research airplanes. But I found I got to do a lot of that kind of stuff, and I didn’t do anything special for any of that, but it just worked that way.

[Assistant] During all this time, did you still have the same title?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I had them put it on a VCR [videocassette recorder] for me, but it isn’t as nice as the film. And it was black and white because they didn’t have much color then. But that was a fun-type project.

[Assistant] And when did it debut? Did the Center people get to see it?

[User] Oh, yes. They showed it to the Center people. I’m afraid I’m the type that loves to do work behind the scenes, and I don’t want anything, so my name isn’t on it anyplace. Neither is Mr. Fiskan’s. The only name on it anyplace is Joe Walker’s and the actor who narrated it, and I can’t even remember his name without looking. But it was a project that was different than the research airplanes. But I found I got to do a lot of that kind of stuff, and I didn’t do anything special for any of that, but it just worked that way.

[Assistant] During all this time, did you still have the same title?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you still in the same office with your desk being in there as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. They showed it to the Center people. I’m afraid I’m the type that loves to do work behind the scenes, and I don’t want anything, so my name isn’t on it anyplace. Neither is Mr. Fiskan’s. The only name on it anyplace is Joe Walker’s and the actor who narrated it, and I can’t even remember his name without looking. But it was a project that was different than the research airplanes. But I found I got to do a lot of that kind of stuff, and I didn’t do anything special for any of that, but it just worked that way.

[Assistant] During all this time, did you still have the same title?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you still in the same office with your desk being in there as well?

[User] Yes, and then Tom left and went to Houston [Texas]. In fact, he went with Walt Williams when Walt went down, and I’m not real sure—he was one of the boys, the engineering fellows, that Walt took with him from FRC.\n\n Then I had a series of supervisors, … but [I was] still doing structure work [on research aircraft]. … So I stayed in structures right up until I retired.

[Assistant] In what year did you retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you still in the same office with your desk being in there as well?

[User] Yes, and then Tom left and went to Houston [Texas]. In fact, he went with Walt Williams when Walt went down, and I’m not real sure—he was one of the boys, the engineering fellows, that Walt took with him from FRC.\n\n Then I had a series of supervisors, … but [I was] still doing structure work [on research aircraft]. … So I stayed in structures right up until I retired.

[Assistant] In what year did you retire?

[User] … 1974, in May of 1974. I enjoyed what I did. I still do.

[Assistant] During those twenty years or so that you were there, what other types of changes or, for instance, did you see any more rooms of women being computers? How did that change? How were women starting to become more of the work force while you were out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell me how you kept cool in these hot summers out on the base.

[User] The fellows wore short-sleeved white shirts, and the material wasn’t as heavy as the long-sleeved. They always had a tie, but they were string ties in those days. And us gals would wear dresses which were lightweight cottons and things. There were a lot of materials that you could use. Didn’t have any trouble.

[Assistant] And lots of fans?

[User] No. We never had any fans.

[Assistant] No? Not any fans? No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We never had any fans.

[Assistant] No? Not any fans? No?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] Nothing?

[User] No.

[Assistant] During the winter, did you have extra things to keep you warm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] Nothing?

[User] No.

[Assistant] During the winter, did you have extra things to keep you warm?

[User] A coat. You wore a coat, and during that time period, snoods were in. Do you know what a snood is? A snood was a heavy-knit, made out of string, like a hairnet, only they were colors, and you would wear them so the wind wouldn’t blow your hair to pieces before you got into the building, and then when you got in the building at your desk, you took them off. Some of them had satin ribbons to tie them on with. Some had elastic in them that you could wear. Some of the girls didn’t wear any and then would do their hair, but during that time period, a lot of them wore bouffants, back-combed and sprayed. So the hairstyle was different, too, and not what it is today. Maybe [today styles are] more comfortable. I don’t know. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, I’ve never heard of those. That’s interesting in itself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] During the winter, did you have extra things to keep you warm?

[User] A coat. You wore a coat, and during that time period, snoods were in. Do you know what a snood is? A snood was a heavy-knit, made out of string, like a hairnet, only they were colors, and you would wear them so the wind wouldn’t blow your hair to pieces before you got into the building, and then when you got in the building at your desk, you took them off. Some of them had satin ribbons to tie them on with. Some had elastic in them that you could wear. Some of the girls didn’t wear any and then would do their hair, but during that time period, a lot of them wore bouffants, back-combed and sprayed. So the hairstyle was different, too, and not what it is today. Maybe [today styles are] more comfortable. I don’t know. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, I’ve never heard of those. That’s interesting in itself.

[User] But they were called snoods, and they were S-N-O-O-D-S. I think was how they spelled them. But they kept your hair in place if you had to go out. But another thing we had, we were all in one building. The cafeteria was right in the building with us. In fact, [the History,] our office today [is] in the cafeteria, in the old cafeteria. But now I was talking to one of the gals that I know out there today, and she said it’s a half-mile walk to walk from the DAF [Data Analysis Facility] Building, which is one of the outer-located buildings, to the photo lab, which is in the main building, and back again. And not everybody has a golf cart. Not everybody has a bicycle to ride in. You walk.

[Assistant] In the midst of all the work that you were doing, some of your contributions were released in publication. Share how this occurred and how your participation was included in that work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of the X ones or any—

[Assistant] Of the ones that you worked on, ever?

[User] Only the X-15 and the XB-70, the lifting bodies. I didn’t mention the lifting bodies. Only those. I didn’t any of the first that I worked at south base. We didn’t see any. But, later on, why, I got to, so that I was in the control room, so you got to see them. So it was pretty nice.\n\n And the control room then was called “the greenhouse” because it was [built] on top of the three-story building, and it was hot up there during the flight, and it wasn’t very big. But they called it “the greenhouse.”

[Assistant] It must have been very satisfying for you to see that the planes and the pilots.

[User] Oh, yes. They were all great guys. They all had a goal and a purpose, and they did a beautiful job, and I think everybody was just as safety-conscious then as we’re being pushed to be now, and we weren’t pushed to be back then. But I don’t think they lost that many planes and pilots from NASA. The air force did, but that was a different situation than what we had.

[Assistant] Was there any other time that you were called in to help put information together for the planes as a whole, like we just mentioned, of a collection of information? You had mentioned earlier about your logs. We talked about that, and you also mentioned about putting that movie reel together. So I was curious to see if you had any more—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only the X-15 and the XB-70, the lifting bodies. I didn’t mention the lifting bodies. Only those. I didn’t any of the first that I worked at south base. We didn’t see any. But, later on, why, I got to, so that I was in the control room, so you got to see them. So it was pretty nice.\n\n And the control room then was called “the greenhouse” because it was [built] on top of the three-story building, and it was hot up there during the flight, and it wasn’t very big. But they called it “the greenhouse.”

[Assistant] It must have been very satisfying for you to see that the planes and the pilots.

[User] Oh, yes. They were all great guys. They all had a goal and a purpose, and they did a beautiful job, and I think everybody was just as safety-conscious then as we’re being pushed to be now, and we weren’t pushed to be back then. But I don’t think they lost that many planes and pilots from NASA. The air force did, but that was a different situation than what we had.

[Assistant] Was there any other time that you were called in to help put information together for the planes as a whole, like we just mentioned, of a collection of information? You had mentioned earlier about your logs. We talked about that, and you also mentioned about putting that movie reel together. So I was curious to see if you had any more—

[User] Oh, I did a loop of the X planes along with the D-5582. It was supposed to be a short continuous loop film that was used in Washington, D.C., at a meeting or conference that they had there that they wanted, and I put that together, and that was used. That was a fun project, too. In fact, any of this has been fun.\n\n I noticed one of your questions—

[Assistant] About anything being a disappointment or discouraging.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. They were all great guys. They all had a goal and a purpose, and they did a beautiful job, and I think everybody was just as safety-conscious then as we’re being pushed to be now, and we weren’t pushed to be back then. But I don’t think they lost that many planes and pilots from NASA. The air force did, but that was a different situation than what we had.

[Assistant] Was there any other time that you were called in to help put information together for the planes as a whole, like we just mentioned, of a collection of information? You had mentioned earlier about your logs. We talked about that, and you also mentioned about putting that movie reel together. So I was curious to see if you had any more—

[User] Oh, I did a loop of the X planes along with the D-5582. It was supposed to be a short continuous loop film that was used in Washington, D.C., at a meeting or conference that they had there that they wanted, and I put that together, and that was used. That was a fun project, too. In fact, any of this has been fun.\n\n I noticed one of your questions—

[Assistant] About anything being a disappointment or discouraging.

[User] I can’t remember ever—

[Assistant] That’s a great accomplishment right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Before we close this afternoon, is there anything else that you would to add or any other reflections on your work there that you’d like for us to know about?

[User] No, just that I don’t know how much longer I’m going to do this. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, at least until we get to the seventy-five anniversary.

[User] Well, I don’t think so.

[Assistant] We thank [you] for all the time and all the efforts and the help that you’ve given this project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just that I don’t know how much longer I’m going to do this. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, at least until we get to the seventy-five anniversary.

[User] Well, I don’t think so.

[Assistant] We thank [you] for all the time and all the efforts and the help that you’ve given this project.

[User] Well, I thank you.

[Assistant] And wish you the best of luck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, but my father was with the railroad, so we moved from Alabama to Virginia to Tennessee, and then I went to college in Valdosta, Georgia. I actually have no place I really call home.

[Assistant] So you went to college in Georgia. Can you tell us about your college years and what you majored in?

[User] You probably aren't aware, but it was strange because I was there in—like, Pearl Harbor was at my last year of high school and then the war was on, so most of the men were all sent somewhere else and there were hardly any men at our school. I think in my math class we were only four students in my math class. I majored in math.\n\n On the weekends sometimes we would have sailors come up from Jacksonville, or we would go out to Moody Field to dances. I worked at the USO [United Service Organizations] on the weekends, I'd go to dances on the weekends. That's the only other entertainment we had, other than studying. And at that time my father was with the railroad, so we had tires and we had gasoline, where other people didn't have it. So he could drive his car to work.\n\n When I'd go back and forth to school, I'd go on—it'd be like a troop train because all these soldiers would be on there drunk and laying in the aisles. We had ration tickets, so that the school got the tickets for the sugar and whatever else they did. I don't remember food being all that thrilling.\n\n But my father was at Valdosta. He moved from Tennessee to Valdosta. I lived right across the street from Georgia State Woman's College, which is now—it's one of the parts of University of Georgia, and it's a university itself. But after I went there for two years, they moved to North Carolina, so I stayed in a dormitory then.

[Assistant] And you majored in math?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that subject a normal subject for a woman to major in at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that subject a normal subject for a woman to major in at that time?

[User] Not too much. As you can see, there were only four in there. When I started out, my mother was pushing me to study art, and I figured I didn't have the personality to sell my art if I did, if I was that good. So I went into school so naive. I said, "Couldn't I major in art and minor in math?" and they said, "No, you can't do that." So I really suffered.\n\n I don't think that I was a good student, and I did my homework all the time, but I do think that I would never have been going on into something, you know, high-level math. But the math we used at NASA was about my speed. We basically just used equations in the work, so it wasn't that I had to do any high theoretical stuff.

[Assistant] What year did you graduate?

[User] Graduated in [19]'47.

[Assistant] Where did you go from there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Graduated in [19]'47.

[Assistant] Where did you go from there?

[User] Well, I went home to my family in North Carolina, and, of course, I didn't know anybody because I never lived there, but my cousin was there and I had a friend whose father also worked for the railroad. My family were pressuring me to go into teaching and I thought, "No way am I going into teaching." But I didn't really know how to get a job.\n\n I had a railroad pass where I could go anywhere from New York to New Orleans for free, so this friend of mine was going over to Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] to apply for a job as a secretary. She had a college degree. I don't know what it was, whether it was business or what it was, but when we got over there they interviewed both of us. She said, "Just go on. Just give me company."\n\n What was really odd is that when they interviewed her, they offered her $3,000, about $3,000, and they offered me $4,000, just because I had a math degree. She got a little—I don't remember what her problem was, but she went back home after a while. She didn't stay very long. I don't remember whether she had other things going at home or whether she wasn't happy with what they did, but while I was there, I shared an apartment. They assigned me to Loads Division, and I shared an apartment in Hampton [Virginia] with three other girls. I don't remember. They worked in gust loads or something.\n\n There were a lot of big divisions there at Langley. And we cooked together, and at that time—that was when cars first came back and one of the people in the house bought a car so we were having a little bit more mobility at the time.

[Assistant] The Loads Division, you said you were assigned there?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you explain a little bit about what that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in the East Coast, you know, with all the humidity and the trees and grass, and when I got off that plane, what was really funny is that I got off the plane, and my boyfriend had sent me roses, but I got off the plane and I kept hearing them say, "Beverly Swanson, Beverly Swanson." And I said to the bus driver—they had the Trona Stage [bus route between Trona, California and Los Angeles California], which was a bus that went up to the desert. I said, "Do you hear them saying Beverly?" "No, let's get going." So I didn't get my flowers. But I got on the Trona Stage and I guess it's like ninety miles up to Edwards. Did you go up on the—did you?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So we drove up there and then when I got there, I got there about the middle of the day and it was hot, bright, sunny, like it usually is. It just overwhelmed me. I thought that's what the Sahara Desert is like. But at that time, they had those big—oh, I don't know what you call those buildings. Great, big—

[Assistant] The hangars?

[User] Yes, hangars. And then we were right at the main base, right next to the service club where the airmen came to eat and there were movies. It was like right out our back door.

[Assistant] Where did you live? You lived there at—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you usually cook then?

[User] I don't remember cooking with anybody else too much. There must have been a PX [Post Exchange] there so that we could get food to cook, but I don't remember cooking with anybody else because [Gertrude Wilken] Trudy Valentine was there and she was a very elaborate cook and she was always make big to-dos or something, but we probably shared sometime. And then when Julia Woodbridge came, I don't think she could cook very good, so I think I might have cooked for the two of us.\n\n Different people came and went, so I don't even remember the other girls, but there were a number of different people who came and worked as a computer for a while, and then they didn't stay a very long period of time.

[Assistant] So there was a turnover as far as people coming and going? Do you think it was because of the climate? Do you have any idea?

[User] I don't know. I don't know. There were basically, I think, maybe six or eight of us that stayed there most of the time. Mary Little [Kuhl] and Roxanah and I think her name was Lilly Ann [Bajus], a computer from Cleveland, and a secretary, was on the side with the four, and then on the other side we had another girl. Trudy was from Cleveland. I don't remember who else. Beverly Smith came at a later time.\n\n Let's see, I was in the dorm there for two years and then I got married in 1952, so I stayed on working for another, what—after I was married, I lived like a year in Palmdale [California], and drove back and forth. Then after [19]'53, my husband and I decided to go back East.

[Assistant] While you were there, can you describe your working conditions, the room you were in? I know you said you had the Frieden calculators.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. The engineers were men and the computers were women. I was actually wondering when they actually changed it from computer to mathematician, because I think when I was hired I was a computer, but some time in the five years that I worked it was changed over, and when I was at Langley, in loads, there was a young woman there who was an engineer, aeronautical engineer, and she was fighting all the time, trying to get them to call her an engineer. They didn't even want to give her the title of engineer, so I don't know what her title was. But I remember it being a focus at one time and I was very proud when they changed it to mathematician.

[Assistant] Was that more of a step up as far as status was concerned?

[User] I don't know that it changed my GS [General Schedule], whatever it was, but at least it looked better on paper to be called a mathematician than to be called a computer. The computers were just coming in at that time, so maybe they needed the term for the machine.

[Assistant] Wanted to free it up so they could use it somewhere else.

[User] The first computers that they brought in there would take up a room size, and they were very massive.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities for advancement there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know that it changed my GS [General Schedule], whatever it was, but at least it looked better on paper to be called a mathematician than to be called a computer. The computers were just coming in at that time, so maybe they needed the term for the machine.

[Assistant] Wanted to free it up so they could use it somewhere else.

[User] The first computers that they brought in there would take up a room size, and they were very massive.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities for advancement there?

[User] I think Roxanah really went to bat for us, and I think we did as well as anybody else. She probably had to appeal to De [DeElroy E.] Beeler. Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the head, but I think De Beeler was probably in charge of engineering or he was my superior. But I felt that Roxanah really had our interests at heart.\n\n When I was at Langley I felt like I was just being pushed around a lot. I was assigned to one project one time and I thought this is really, really the pits. I don't really see any purpose in this. It seemed like I was just marking time or something. Maybe overall whatever he was doing was something important but the engineer was not very helpful.\n\n But I learned a lot when I was at Langley because I didn't know anything about the type of work I was doing, so I learned. And I think I might have taken some classes in aeronautics or something while I was there.

[Assistant] So that prepared you for your work at—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first computers that they brought in there would take up a room size, and they were very massive.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities for advancement there?

[User] I think Roxanah really went to bat for us, and I think we did as well as anybody else. She probably had to appeal to De [DeElroy E.] Beeler. Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the head, but I think De Beeler was probably in charge of engineering or he was my superior. But I felt that Roxanah really had our interests at heart.\n\n When I was at Langley I felt like I was just being pushed around a lot. I was assigned to one project one time and I thought this is really, really the pits. I don't really see any purpose in this. It seemed like I was just marking time or something. Maybe overall whatever he was doing was something important but the engineer was not very helpful.\n\n But I learned a lot when I was at Langley because I didn't know anything about the type of work I was doing, so I learned. And I think I might have taken some classes in aeronautics or something while I was there.

[Assistant] So that prepared you for your work at—

[User] Yes. I think I was learning a little bit, you know, catching up with some of these aeronautical engineers.

[Assistant] So when you went out there, how did your family feel about you going that far away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it really colored it when I went into teaching, though. It really broadened my outlook on life and I was a Girl Scout leader for like ten years. When I was living in New Jersey, I was a member of the Christian Jews group and I belong to League of Women Voters, so I'm really into rights for everybody, so I think it had a lot to do with coloring what I became.

[Assistant] Having those exposures early on. Did your husband follow you to California? I mean, he was your boyfriend at that time. He followed you?

[User] Actually, what it says is, "Beverly's boyfriend is coming out here, and I felt sorry for him." But I don't think he felt like he was going anywhere at Langley. If I had really been serious about breaking off with him, I probably shouldn't have contacted him or had anything to do, but we really had a lot of things in common. I'm not sorry that I married him. I have three lovely girls. They all did well in school, but it was not—I had been active in the Episcopal Church and I knew the problems with getting into a mixed marriage, so I really didn't—\n\n He worked on basically the same planes that everybody else worked on, I think, but he got discouraged with government, and I think he thought private industry had a lot more going for it at the time, and then everybody was leaving at that time to go to Cape Canaveral [Florida] and they were going. His boss went back to Republic Aviation in New York and he told George if he came back there he could work for him or something, and that was where he came from.\n\n His parents lived up on the Hudson River, so I think that's why we went. I think if I hadn't gotten married, I probably would have stayed with NASA as long as Mary did, because I liked it.

[Assistant] You enjoyed your work.

[User] Yes. I never felt that women were put down in their work. Everybody was contributing what they could contribute.

[Assistant] You felt like you were treated well, even though you were a woman?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I think it was all just—Ed was probably right. Most of the stuff went back to Langley and then they figured out where they were going, or they looked at all of the reports, you know, like if you didn't see any of the reports, you didn't really know an overall picture of where they were headed. I'm sure today they've used a lot of the research in creating new airplanes. I really loved the little X-4. I think they made a video of that from Ames [Research Center, Mountain View, California], because I remember them saying they were thinking about getting somebody else to be the computer in the picture when I was doing all the work and I thought, "Well, I may not be good-looking, but for crying out loud." So I don't know where—that's probably floating around somewhere, but it was a cute little plane. It had elevons. The elevator and the ailerons were together so it was like a neat little thing. I'm sure that's what they probably use nowadays for some of the little jet planes, but it was really a fun little plane to work on. I could see it taking off outside the window.

[Assistant] That must have given you a feeling of satisfaction, knowing that you were helping.

[User] Yes, but it was fun. I liked working on that one more than I did the others. Mel Sadoff would come in. He'd come down from Ames and he would be there, maybe during the week or something, but he'd come in and look at the stuff and I think I got a little bit more of an idea about what was going on. He'd say, "Do you see so-and-so?" so I think I had a little bit more personal interest.

[Assistant] More input.

[User] Over the long range, I don't know how they—and I guess all that material is unclassified now, so it's out there if people want to—if they used it in building airplanes today.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging part of your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but it was fun. I liked working on that one more than I did the others. Mel Sadoff would come in. He'd come down from Ames and he would be there, maybe during the week or something, but he'd come in and look at the stuff and I think I got a little bit more of an idea about what was going on. He'd say, "Do you see so-and-so?" so I think I had a little bit more personal interest.

[Assistant] More input.

[User] Over the long range, I don't know how they—and I guess all that material is unclassified now, so it's out there if people want to—if they used it in building airplanes today.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging part of your job?

[User] I don't know if there were any at the moment. I don't know if it was challenging or not. It was just interesting, and I just liked working with the data, so I don't know that it was—

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned the X-4 was probably your favorite project that you worked on. Were there any people out there that you felt like really made a difference in your life or in your career or acted as a mentor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in the central—not central valley. It's in back valley there in California. They have a lot of those glider planes. I think that's where you could basically learn how you could—once you get up in the air, you can probably glide to anywhere, just like a bird, if you knew what you were doing.

[Assistant]
I'm going to see if Rebecca has anything that she'd like to ask.

When you were talking about the X-1 and some of the early projects that you worked on, it made me think about the classified type of work that you were working on. Was there a level of secrecy that was going on at the Flight Research Center at that time, that you all felt compelled to maintain while you were working on those projects?

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, when I went to Langley, I don't know whether I had top secret clearance, but I certainly did when I was at Edwards. At that time, the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] would go back and they would actually interview people you went to high school with and they really thoroughly checked into your background. I always felt that I had to keep my mouth shut, off the base.\n\n But basically we were kind of closed in and we didn't have contact with—unless reporters came up or something from L.A. and there was a big thing, but we didn't have contact with them. But one of the reasons I got upset about the X-5 project was because I was supposed to go to the next level of clearance. I don't know why that was so special to me.

[Assistant] That's about the time that you were pregnant?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that your choice not to work anymore, or were you not allowed to work because you were pregnant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, when I went to Langley, I don't know whether I had top secret clearance, but I certainly did when I was at Edwards. At that time, the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] would go back and they would actually interview people you went to high school with and they really thoroughly checked into your background. I always felt that I had to keep my mouth shut, off the base.\n\n But basically we were kind of closed in and we didn't have contact with—unless reporters came up or something from L.A. and there was a big thing, but we didn't have contact with them. But one of the reasons I got upset about the X-5 project was because I was supposed to go to the next level of clearance. I don't know why that was so special to me.

[Assistant] That's about the time that you were pregnant?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that your choice not to work anymore, or were you not allowed to work because you were pregnant?

[User] No, no. It was my choice, but I think at that time most people stopped. Women don't go to work; they stay home and take care of their children. I don't think I ever would have trusted anybody else to take care of my children.

[Assistant] Roxanah would pick you up at your dorm in the old base you called it. But what were your hours like? I know the first six weeks you mentioned that you just had really multiple days, that you just worked constantly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. It was my choice, but I think at that time most people stopped. Women don't go to work; they stay home and take care of their children. I don't think I ever would have trusted anybody else to take care of my children.

[Assistant] Roxanah would pick you up at your dorm in the old base you called it. But what were your hours like? I know the first six weeks you mentioned that you just had really multiple days, that you just worked constantly.

[User] Yes, and we worked overtime, too. I remember getting a big, fat check after the first couple of months or something, because I had worked so much overtime, and I never had an opportunity to do that before, and you really had no choice. It needed to get done and it needed to get done right away. I've forgotten what you asked.

[Assistant] Your hours.

[User] We must have worked like eight hours, generally. But we started early enough in the morning before the desert got hot, but we were inside and we must have had those swamp coolers to keep the place cool, because it was a noisy atmosphere.

[Assistant] Your lunch breaks? Was that a time to talk more about projects, or did you talk about—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and we worked overtime, too. I remember getting a big, fat check after the first couple of months or something, because I had worked so much overtime, and I never had an opportunity to do that before, and you really had no choice. It needed to get done and it needed to get done right away. I've forgotten what you asked.

[Assistant] Your hours.

[User] We must have worked like eight hours, generally. But we started early enough in the morning before the desert got hot, but we were inside and we must have had those swamp coolers to keep the place cool, because it was a noisy atmosphere.

[Assistant] Your lunch breaks? Was that a time to talk more about projects, or did you talk about—

[User] No, and I think we probably just made a sandwich ourselves and brought it. I don't think we went out. We didn't go out anywhere to lunch. It couldn't have been exciting or I would have remembered. But no, I don't remember getting together. I must have done a lot of reading, because I would read whenever I had spare time or something.

[Assistant] Was there any type of library or did someone send you books?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We must have worked like eight hours, generally. But we started early enough in the morning before the desert got hot, but we were inside and we must have had those swamp coolers to keep the place cool, because it was a noisy atmosphere.

[Assistant] Your lunch breaks? Was that a time to talk more about projects, or did you talk about—

[User] No, and I think we probably just made a sandwich ourselves and brought it. I don't think we went out. We didn't go out anywhere to lunch. It couldn't have been exciting or I would have remembered. But no, I don't remember getting together. I must have done a lot of reading, because I would read whenever I had spare time or something.

[Assistant] Was there any type of library or did someone send you books?

[User] They had a library at the service club, right behind us, and you could check out books there. You could go over to the service club and buy various things, but for the life of me, I can't remember where the PX was.

[Assistant]
You had to have one somewhere.

We touched briefly about today's emphasis on dress, and the impression that young people have. During that time, was there a social acceptance or a social expectation of how you should dress when you go to work, or were you all able to dress comfortably for your jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We must have had a washing machine and dryer, I don't know.

[Assistant] A dryer, too? With all the dust and the wind, I can't imagine hanging clothes.

[User] It had to have been done right there, because we were right in the middle of the base and there was nothing except airmen walking all around outside, so there were no clothes lines. There was no fence around our area. We were just sitting right out in the middle of nowhere, so if we opened our window, you could see in. I think we must have had Venetian blinds.\n\n But no, it was totally not private. But we never had any problem. We never had any problem with any of the airmen or anything going on, as far as I know with that. Nobody dated the airmen. Nobody, as far as I know, dated any officers. But sometimes they'd go over to, you know, like if they had a party at the Officers' Club, sometimes some of us would go over and just stay for a while and have a drink, but we never felt like we were involved in their life. We were not excluded, but we were not included, either. I would imagine that people like Walt Williams and De Beeler probably had a lot more to do with them, since they were on a day-to-day basis, talking to them.

[Assistant] Were you there when Walt Williams left, or was he still there after you left?

[User] I think that was probably about close to the time when he was leaving. I don't remember exactly when he—but there were a lot of engineers that were looking around to find something else. Some of them went to TRW, some went to Cape Canaveral, some went back East. I don't know. Some of them thought they'd get in on the ground floor at Canaveral, I guess.

[Assistant] Your salary was somewhere around $3,000 when you were at Langley. Did you get a bonus for moving out to Muroc, or any type of substantial increase? What was your salary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was probably about close to the time when he was leaving. I don't remember exactly when he—but there were a lot of engineers that were looking around to find something else. Some of them went to TRW, some went to Cape Canaveral, some went back East. I don't know. Some of them thought they'd get in on the ground floor at Canaveral, I guess.

[Assistant] Your salary was somewhere around $3,000 when you were at Langley. Did you get a bonus for moving out to Muroc, or any type of substantial increase? What was your salary?

[User] I could probably tell you later when I actually quit, but I looked for my other records and I couldn't find them, but it was, you know, even though I got $4,000 when I started, I don't know that the increments were that great at that time, compared to what it is today. But they just paid my way out there, and I don't remember them giving me any bonus.

[Assistant] Were the dormitories free or did they charge you?

[User] I don't know whether we had any stipend for them or not. If it was, it wasn't very much. I have to think about that. I don't remember it being taken out. Mary might remember something like that, I don't know.

[Assistant] While you were there as a computer, were the computers, the women, all in that one room all the time, or were you—worked with men during the day as well as in your rooms, or were you secluded from the men?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could probably tell you later when I actually quit, but I looked for my other records and I couldn't find them, but it was, you know, even though I got $4,000 when I started, I don't know that the increments were that great at that time, compared to what it is today. But they just paid my way out there, and I don't remember them giving me any bonus.

[Assistant] Were the dormitories free or did they charge you?

[User] I don't know whether we had any stipend for them or not. If it was, it wasn't very much. I have to think about that. I don't remember it being taken out. Mary might remember something like that, I don't know.

[Assistant] While you were there as a computer, were the computers, the women, all in that one room all the time, or were you—worked with men during the day as well as in your rooms, or were you secluded from the men?

[User] I don't know that we were secluded but basically, if the engineers wanted to know something about the work, they came down to our desks, so basically we stayed in that room most of the time. But you could walk down the hallway when you wanted a break, and after George came out there, he used to come down and talk to me a lot. Trudy [Wilken] Valentine was going with George [Valentine] at that time, so he used to come in once in a while and talk to her.\n\n It was basically like it was at Langley, except at Langley the engineers and the computers were in the same room and you would make passing remarks to the engineers then, but we were basically secluded, if you get right down to it. But you could walk down the hall and there wasn't anybody keeping you from visiting, but there was just not that much socializing, I don't think.

[Assistant] Too much work to do, I guess, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know whether we had any stipend for them or not. If it was, it wasn't very much. I have to think about that. I don't remember it being taken out. Mary might remember something like that, I don't know.

[Assistant] While you were there as a computer, were the computers, the women, all in that one room all the time, or were you—worked with men during the day as well as in your rooms, or were you secluded from the men?

[User] I don't know that we were secluded but basically, if the engineers wanted to know something about the work, they came down to our desks, so basically we stayed in that room most of the time. But you could walk down the hallway when you wanted a break, and after George came out there, he used to come down and talk to me a lot. Trudy [Wilken] Valentine was going with George [Valentine] at that time, so he used to come in once in a while and talk to her.\n\n It was basically like it was at Langley, except at Langley the engineers and the computers were in the same room and you would make passing remarks to the engineers then, but we were basically secluded, if you get right down to it. But you could walk down the hall and there wasn't anybody keeping you from visiting, but there was just not that much socializing, I don't think.

[Assistant] Too much work to do, I guess, too.

[User] There seemed like there was pressure to get it done, somewhere.

[Assistant] Was there ever a time where you felt that there was information that they didn't want you to know, with all the secrecy going on, or all the testing of the airplanes? Was there a time when people were not knowledgeable about the projects that were going on in the time that you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there are a number of them, and I think the major ones that you touched on, the fire, the Tito mission. The Tito mission was really a very large hurdle because both sides had become so polarized. In fact, our Administrator had publicly stated very, very firmly that he was not going to fly, and their Administrator had very publicly and just as firmly said, “Yes, he is.”\n\n We honestly—I do recall that was one week where we were probably averaged maybe two or three hours of sleep a night because we would be in very, very hard negotiating meetings with them during the day, and then at the end of the day we would go back to the Volga apartments, the Volga apartments that NASA leases over there, and be on telecoms with the people back here, giving them the information we had learned and receiving information from this side and then trying blend the two together.\n\n Of course, at the end of the day over there, five o’clock over there is eight o’clock here, so as we were just finishing up the day and getting back to the Volga at six o’clock or so, and normally hadn’t eaten yet, the phones would be ringing and people here would be ready for a full day’s work. [Laughs] So it was good in a way that it was a very efficient way to get the job done, but I remember at the end of that week, we were all completely bushed.

[Assistant] You didn’t have to worry about forgetting while you slept.

[User] No. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You just didn’t sleep.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Would you like to take a break for a few minutes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You just didn’t sleep.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Would you like to take a break for a few minutes?

[User]
Yes. That would be a good idea.\n\n [Tape recorder turned off.]

… Pilot In-flight Landing Operations Trainer. He had to force the words to make PILOT out of it. But it was essentially a laptop, but at that time, laptops didn’t have enough capacity, so it was a workstation that we had to go out and buy. Essentially it was like a game, a little game that you buy now down at Target, to land, a landing simulator. We can talk about it or elaborate on it, but it was one of the things I had found I thought was maybe a deficiency or something that really taxed the commander on coming back and landing, that I felt would help unload some of that task, if he could practice the landing onboard, and it’s worked out well. It’s gone on almost every flight now. Now the computers are small enough it can go into a little laptop, with very little overhead.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. What is the feedback from the commanders?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We gathered the information.

[Assistant] In February of 2003, NASA and the nation lost another Orbiter when\n\n Columbia\n\n disintegrated on its way back home. Share with us where you were when you heard that news and then how you’ve become involved with some of the return-to-flight activities.

[User] I was in Reno, Nevada, when we lost\n\n Columbia\n\n . I was at a wildlife conservation convention and saw it on the news very early in the morning, and wasn’t able to get out of there before being captured by some media types who wanted interviews. Of course, I had no idea what had happened then. There was a lot of speculation, but I really had no idea what had happened until, well, I guess it was a day or two later when I learned what the source was.

[Assistant] Are you now involved with some of the return-to-flight activities?

[User] I am. I am now and, again, because of General Stafford, who keeps me off the street and keeps me from my hunting trips and flying as much as I want to. He had been asked by the Administrator to set up an independent review group of how NASA was responding to the recommendations of the\n\n Columbia\n\n Accident Investigation Board. We were not involved at all with the Accident Board or with their findings, but because of the commitment by Mr. [Sean] O’Keefe that NASA would in fact comply with all the recommendations, and NASA’s statement that they would raise the bar and do even more, he asked General Stafford to form a committee of experts, of expertise in various areas, the management areas and the technical areas and the operation areas, to review NASA’s responses and to assess whether they had complied with the intent of the Accident Board recommendation, and that’s what we’re doing now. That’s what I’m involved with right now and will be up until return to flight.

[Assistant] Anything you can share with us at this point, or are you still collecting information?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it’s a real difference in the way—the center cultures pose some interesting challenges in getting jobs done.

[Assistant] I’m sure they will continue to do that.

[User] Oh yes. I think JSC is one of the best integration and operations organization probably that’s ever been put together. We’re not as good a development organization. We’re not as strong as—and it’s cultural, because we’ve not allowed the engineering organization to stay as strong as it was during Apollo, because we’ve had to go favor operations over engineering, and over in Huntsville, fire and thunder rules Huntsville. If you’re ever a Chief Engineer over there, you’re like Flight Directors around here.\n\n So when you look at cross-culture, we can [talk tough on] engineering but they have the culture that says—their whole Center’s is culture is on that model, and we’re on another model. We’ll never be able to compete on a development basis with them, and I don’t think it’s healthy to do so. I think the Centers need to realign to the point where you got some very strong roles, and quit mixing it up so much.\n\n Because that was the infighting; the infighting killed [the Freedom] program. Everybody wanted to do operations; everybody wanted to do logistics; everybody wanted to do this and everybody wanted to do that. And you had Reston on top of it, and they wanted to do it all. So there wasn’t enough money to go around. You literally starved the development contracts because of the bickering that went on between the Centers.

[Assistant] It should continue to be interesting for you as you move through your self-employment days, but yet still being able to do so much with the different Centers.

[User] Yes, it’s been interesting. I don’t mind doing it until I can get my Social Security quarters in, and then I— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, we thank you for all the time that you’ve given us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I think JSC is one of the best integration and operations organization probably that’s ever been put together. We’re not as good a development organization. We’re not as strong as—and it’s cultural, because we’ve not allowed the engineering organization to stay as strong as it was during Apollo, because we’ve had to go favor operations over engineering, and over in Huntsville, fire and thunder rules Huntsville. If you’re ever a Chief Engineer over there, you’re like Flight Directors around here.\n\n So when you look at cross-culture, we can [talk tough on] engineering but they have the culture that says—their whole Center’s is culture is on that model, and we’re on another model. We’ll never be able to compete on a development basis with them, and I don’t think it’s healthy to do so. I think the Centers need to realign to the point where you got some very strong roles, and quit mixing it up so much.\n\n Because that was the infighting; the infighting killed [the Freedom] program. Everybody wanted to do operations; everybody wanted to do logistics; everybody wanted to do this and everybody wanted to do that. And you had Reston on top of it, and they wanted to do it all. So there wasn’t enough money to go around. You literally starved the development contracts because of the bickering that went on between the Centers.

[Assistant] It should continue to be interesting for you as you move through your self-employment days, but yet still being able to do so much with the different Centers.

[User] Yes, it’s been interesting. I don’t mind doing it until I can get my Social Security quarters in, and then I— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, we thank you for all the time that you’ve given us.

[User] I’ve enjoyed this. It’s been cathartic. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Well, good. We’re glad to have that, so thanks again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I would say that was a pretty good model. There were some differences, but it provided the understanding of what could happen and how it could be set up.

[Assistant] Okay. What goes into creating a charter, the initial charter for the Foundation?

[User] I think I have a copy of it here. I'm not sure. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Really? [LAUGHS] Okay.

[User] No, I can't put my hands on it real quickly. But it was an agreement about who would do what and the extent to which we would rely on private resources. And then, of course, any time you get into the governmental space, you're dealing with regulations governing the expenditure of funds. And one has to be very careful about giving people benefits or preferences not available generally based on their involvement. It could be as simple as bringing somebody in for a special tour. I don’t think that would cross any kinds of lines. But if you’re beginning to give significant gifts to people that use public resources, you know, you can't use appropriated funds for that. But sometimes there is a place for that kind of thing—promoting the organization or funding things—that either the Archives didn't have the money for, or would be prohibited from using appropriated funds for. So all of that needed to be laid out and clarified. And the charter laid out how often the group would meet, how it was organized, who would be in charge, you know, how they would relate to the Archivist, because it wasn't a statutory organization—an organization set up by law.

[Assistant] Okay. Was there a board then with it, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I can't put my hands on it real quickly. But it was an agreement about who would do what and the extent to which we would rely on private resources. And then, of course, any time you get into the governmental space, you're dealing with regulations governing the expenditure of funds. And one has to be very careful about giving people benefits or preferences not available generally based on their involvement. It could be as simple as bringing somebody in for a special tour. I don’t think that would cross any kinds of lines. But if you’re beginning to give significant gifts to people that use public resources, you know, you can't use appropriated funds for that. But sometimes there is a place for that kind of thing—promoting the organization or funding things—that either the Archives didn't have the money for, or would be prohibited from using appropriated funds for. So all of that needed to be laid out and clarified. And the charter laid out how often the group would meet, how it was organized, who would be in charge, you know, how they would relate to the Archivist, because it wasn't a statutory organization—an organization set up by law.

[Assistant] Okay. Was there a board then with it, too?

[User] Well, initially that was the whole Foundation. But what was envisioned, and what developed was that the public was invited to become members, much like those who join “Friends of the National Zoo.”

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting.

[User] You know, in more recent years, prominent individuals—a name I'll mention is Cokie Roberts, the journalist, was a huge supporter of the Archives, and she, behind the scenes, was on the Foundation. And there have been others on the Foundation. I think maybe the author, David McCullough was on the board. And then there have been some philanthropists on it.

[Assistant] Interesting. And you said that it was created around 1992 or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, in more recent years, prominent individuals—a name I'll mention is Cokie Roberts, the journalist, was a huge supporter of the Archives, and she, behind the scenes, was on the Foundation. And there have been others on the Foundation. I think maybe the author, David McCullough was on the board. And then there have been some philanthropists on it.

[Assistant] Interesting. And you said that it was created around 1992 or so?

[User] Yeah, those foundational documents were in that time period.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They're in the records of the Archives.

[Assistant] Yeah, I'll have to check that out. So that was mainly for, like, getting public support for exhibits and public programming, you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, those foundational documents were in that time period.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They're in the records of the Archives.

[Assistant] Yeah, I'll have to check that out. So that was mainly for, like, getting public support for exhibits and public programming, you said?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, great. Another thing that I wanted to follow up on was you were providing weekly updates to some management officials, something like that? Could you go into more detail on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was an earlier version, now that you pressed me a little bit. Back, I'd say in the early '70s maybe, or sometime in that timeframe, there had been an organ like that that had gone out in the National Archives, and so that was one of the reasons people remembered that and liked that it was being renewed. I think that was part of the impetus that we—that used to be a really good means of communication that we don't have anymore. So I think it's like lots of electronic newsletters. I mean, it played its role during the time that it was in place. Whether or not it's been replaced by other useful things, I mean, certainly it has, but that was one specific kind of thing that served a good purpose. Oh, another point to make is that when staff were contributing news for the Managers Monthly, it was really kind of one of the only times that the managers down to that level of supervisor, I think, were made to feel like they were part of what was going on. So much else was just top down. And this was a bit more saying, "We want to involve you in the decision-making." And so we're specifically not sending it out to folks below you, not because we don't want that information spread, but we're respecting the roles you have as a supervisor, and you deserve to kind of have insight. And then, you know, they could share it with others if they wanted to.

[Assistant] Was this being sent to regional managers?

[User] Yes. Yes. That was the other thing. That's another reason why I think it was particularly useful, because it was a way to create the sense, you know, of "One NARA." We didn't use those terms back then, but . . .

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] . . . create that sense of we're one agency. And [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Do you think it . . . [CROSS TALKING]. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. That was the other thing. That's another reason why I think it was particularly useful, because it was a way to create the sense, you know, of "One NARA." We didn't use those terms back then, but . . .

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] . . . create that sense of we're one agency. And [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Do you think it . . . [CROSS TALKING]. Go ahead.

[User] No, I was just going to say, it also really illustrated to me how diverse the mission of the Archives is and how difficult, in some ways, it is to attempt to find a unified mission outside of the unity of administrative support functions that has to be there.

[Assistant] Do you think for what you were putting out, the monthly and then the weekly, do you think it took someone with your type of personality? You seem to be one that, regardless of where or what position you're in, you like to go out and meet the staff and talk to them and learn about things, whether it was always appreciated or not. But you seem like you were that type of person. Do you think that's what helped make that such a success?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] . . . create that sense of we're one agency. And [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Do you think it . . . [CROSS TALKING]. Go ahead.

[User] No, I was just going to say, it also really illustrated to me how diverse the mission of the Archives is and how difficult, in some ways, it is to attempt to find a unified mission outside of the unity of administrative support functions that has to be there.

[Assistant] Do you think for what you were putting out, the monthly and then the weekly, do you think it took someone with your type of personality? You seem to be one that, regardless of where or what position you're in, you like to go out and meet the staff and talk to them and learn about things, whether it was always appreciated or not. But you seem like you were that type of person. Do you think that's what helped make that such a success?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I think lots of people have those gifts. But if you're going to create something like that, you should staff it with a person that, you know, can do it in an appropriate way. Because of the fact that those types of communications that come out from the main office can be perceived as fluff sheets and nothing substantive, and so they aren't really useful means of communicating. So that's why it was important, I think, to have that. I wasn't—and the Archivist and the Director were not simply trying to propagandize, they were also trying to make this organization a more holistic, well-functioning up-and-down kind of organization.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, in this way, you're getting other perspectives that maybe you wouldn't have heard initially, and you’re sharing those perspectives through the newsletter-type thing. So . . . yeah. Today, I'm sure that you're familiar with the ICN [Internal Collaboration Network].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah? So maybe that was a product of that?

[User] Yep. Yep. That's right. So those books have been converted now into digital resources. So now you don't have to go to Princeton to look at the Papers of Woodrow Wilson, or even to a library. You can sit in front of your computer and pull those up.

[Assistant] Mhm.

[User] And those books are very expensive to purchase. Those are not things that you and I could afford, you know, the entire set of Woodrow Wilson Papers. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] Yeah, I'm sure. And so then a part of this study that you were working on, you're just checking to see if everything is working well and if there's anything that can be added to it or changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And those books are very expensive to purchase. Those are not things that you and I could afford, you know, the entire set of Woodrow Wilson Papers. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] Yeah, I'm sure. And so then a part of this study that you were working on, you're just checking to see if everything is working well and if there's anything that can be added to it or changed?

[User] Right. Right. So the study had a lot to do with process, but there were a lot of the processes that needed attention and, particularly, needed attention given where the Commission was going to be going in terms of this whole new world. For example, once the Commission approves a grant, there is the responsibility to oversee and monitor the use of the funds to ensure they are being spent properly.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It's worth mentioning.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's very neat. And this is yet another piece that kind of ties you to the National Archives when you were working on that also, and learning about the agency and stuff too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right. So the study had a lot to do with process, but there were a lot of the processes that needed attention and, particularly, needed attention given where the Commission was going to be going in terms of this whole new world. For example, once the Commission approves a grant, there is the responsibility to oversee and monitor the use of the funds to ensure they are being spent properly.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It's worth mentioning.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's very neat. And this is yet another piece that kind of ties you to the National Archives when you were working on that also, and learning about the agency and stuff too.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very cool. Okay. The other thing I wanted to mention, so at the end of our conversation last time, we were talking about your time at the Office of the Federal Register and how they were starting to move things online. And I know that there were several major projects that were going on around that time. Could you talk about any of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These are the kinds of documents that you take to the court and record. That's their nature, like laws. And also, before they're published, they are entirely confidential. So there's a lot of security involved. There's a lot of integrity that needs to be 100 percent. So on paper, the eDOCS system looks like a relatively simple off-the-shelf document management system. And that, by the way, is what I think the folks from NARA IT would often see. They’d say (we thought), "So you're saying you're so special and so different. You know, it's just a document management system." Well, yes and no. So in the end then, it's the workhorse of the Federal Register. And also I would say we went from, I don't know, 80 employees down to 40 or 45, and we're producing double the volume of work.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So that was the eDOCS system. I was project manager part of the time, and then we had project managers from NARA come in. But I was always deeply involved in that.

[Assistant] Okay. And so they still use that today . . .?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] . . . the eDOCS system? Yeah. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, okay!

[Assistant] So we greatly appreciate that it's in there. We used to go through other . . . I forget. There was a university, I think, that posted regulations, but you just never knew which was the most current. So it was always very confusing. And so now this is our go-to source. So it's great. Now, who maintains that then? Is it GPO?

[User] Between GPO [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Or between both GPO [CROSS TALKING]. Okay.

[User] Well, our office is responsible for the content. I mean, the content is prepared by the agencies, but once a final rule is published and given an effective date, then we maintain the Code, and we use GPO computers for the platform where the e-CFR resides.

[Assistant] Okay. So kind of a mix of both agencies working together on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Between GPO [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Or between both GPO [CROSS TALKING]. Okay.

[User] Well, our office is responsible for the content. I mean, the content is prepared by the agencies, but once a final rule is published and given an effective date, then we maintain the Code, and we use GPO computers for the platform where the e-CFR resides.

[Assistant] Okay. So kind of a mix of both agencies working together on that.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. That seems like it would be a big job to keep up with all of the regulations, with all the agencies, you know? Yeah. Big job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So another part of the federalregister.gov project was integrating into the website the commenting process, which—remember, we're the publishers of the document, but the comments are going to the FAA or the IRS or NOAA. And so bringing the comments into our system and then sending them out to the agencies was a very complex process. But yes, now all of that can be done digitally.

[Assistant] Wow, that's great. I mean, those are some major projects that you were working with. Yeah.

[User] And yet I'll tell you, if anybody ever asked me what I do, I always liked to laugh to see how many seconds until their eyes began to glaze over. It's hard to make the work sound real, real interesting.

[Assistant] I mean, how did this even come to be part of the National Archives? Because, you know, when you talk to someone they're going to be familiar with a Presidential Library maybe, or you hold the Declaration of Independence. Where does this fit in? How did this become part of the National Archives?

[User] There's not a real good insight into that in the legislative record. I think the most we know is that both organizations were created at the same time. So the National Archives was created in 1935, and the Federal Register Act was 1935. And so they were looking for a place to put the Office. There was some discussion about putting it in the attorney general's office because it had this aspect of creating records. I think maybe somebody said, "Well, we're creating this Archives. That's the organization that keeps the federal records." So it's not an entirely illogical explanation, but they are two distinct missions in some ways.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think just the public and probably even some of NARA's own staff aren't that familiar with the Office of the Federal Register and what it is that the Office does. And we talked a little bit last time about it being brought up in the news more with the whole Presidential . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yet I'll tell you, if anybody ever asked me what I do, I always liked to laugh to see how many seconds until their eyes began to glaze over. It's hard to make the work sound real, real interesting.

[Assistant] I mean, how did this even come to be part of the National Archives? Because, you know, when you talk to someone they're going to be familiar with a Presidential Library maybe, or you hold the Declaration of Independence. Where does this fit in? How did this become part of the National Archives?

[User] There's not a real good insight into that in the legislative record. I think the most we know is that both organizations were created at the same time. So the National Archives was created in 1935, and the Federal Register Act was 1935. And so they were looking for a place to put the Office. There was some discussion about putting it in the attorney general's office because it had this aspect of creating records. I think maybe somebody said, "Well, we're creating this Archives. That's the organization that keeps the federal records." So it's not an entirely illogical explanation, but they are two distinct missions in some ways.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think just the public and probably even some of NARA's own staff aren't that familiar with the Office of the Federal Register and what it is that the Office does. And we talked a little bit last time about it being brought up in the news more with the whole Presidential . . .

[User] Electoral College.

[Assistant] Yeah, that Electoral College process and all of that. And people just aren't really familiar with what it is that the Office does. And so you get asked all these questions, and they think that you probably do more than what you do. But, you know, it's . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] Wow. So it was all about maintaining continuity and figuring out how this would continue to function and working with agencies and that sort of thing, it sounds like.

[User] You know what? I'll tell you one take away from that.

[Assistant] Yes?

[User] It really showed me that in emergencies, we're relying on people. Emergency response will function as well as the people are capable of functioning—individuals. So, in those situations, the people that rise really are the people who have guts, innovation, energy, expertise, because I would say the first league wasn't out on the field, initially. And it's because this whole thing had become kind of unreal—few people thought a nuclear weapon would be exploded, so the people assigned to emergency preparedness weren’t, you know, when real-life crises occurred, those who were used to frontline action, and some were sort of saying, "What do I do?" And I think that's true in life. You know, a tornado comes through—you know, I have such respect for what's going on like in Maui [Hawaii] and other places where there's disasters—there are a lot of us that maybe wouldn't know what to do. We'd be sort of paralyzed by what it is. And whether it's war, whether it's disaster, whether it's some other kind of emergency, systems are not adequate. I mean, you can have all the procedures in place, and that's important, but unless you have people that use them, that have a sense of urgency—and I saw a lot of that in that process. And it was a really interesting lesson, or I don't know what to call it, but . . . It gave me a lot of respect for it. We all have our roles, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah. And I guess some are better than others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [CROSS TALKING] And police, they have a unique gift. And you saw that, and you saw people that knew what to do. So rapidly, there was a response. And then there were the majority of us that just were so thankful there are people there that know what to do, because I wouldn't.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, I think there's some training involved, but I think you're right. You know, there are certain innate skills or something about what people can handle and react fast, you know, really fast to something. So, I totally agree with that. Kind of along that same line, I wanted to ask . . . so I believe that you were the executive assistant to Senator Hatfield and then for the Archivist of the United States Don Wilson, and also to the Director of the Office of the Federal Register. Right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Five were [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] What does that say about you? Do you have some knack or skill for being able to support people in their role, of making them successful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Five were [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] What does that say about you? Do you have some knack or skill for being able to support people in their role, of making them successful?

[User] I think I've concluded that the gift I have is not so much being an innovative thinker. I'm not the person that should sit at the top of an organization and think big thoughts, but I am a person who can listen and kind of capture and articulate what others are saying in a pretty simple way for others. I think I have a sense of when I hear something that's right and something that's not right. I don't mean morally. I mean, this is going to work or this—I think I'm a good analyst of things. So, I think what I could do, what I felt best with, is if I could get with a visionary who is also willing to not just think big thoughts but was willing to take action, I could help that person figure out how to take the action or how to say, "Here's how to get from what you want to do to accomplishing it, but you've got to do this. You need to get up and make this speech, or you need to issue this memo, or you need to approach this meeting this way." I still think I'm pretty much a behind-the-scenes person. I can do the upfront to a certain degree, but there are a lot of people who have more skills than I do in that. But that's what I just kept finding myself falling into. So after a while, I realized that's my niche, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like the Archivist or the Senator or whoever may have this vision, and then you can help them determine how to get from Point A to Point B and to get that implemented.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Kind of around that, what do you think is your greatest accomplishment, or what are you most proud of from your time at NARA? You've done a lot of things in a lot of different offices, or a few [LAUGHS], not just one.

[User] I hope I made people's work happy, you know? I hope I was a person that didn't make their days worse. At least, you know, they felt like I was trying to help them. I really wanted to serve people well. I wanted to accomplish things, you know? But, yeah. And it's funny. I think I had two reputations. I think I had kind of a negative reputation. This is probably way too personal for this. I don't know. But I think there are a lot of people who really would say, "He was a good person. He helped us, and he was for us." But there were people that, somehow, I just couldn't connect with. And probably behind doors, they were maybe negative about me. I never had bad motives. I didn't have enemies, you know. If I was in an argument with someone, it was just about the topic. It wasn't, "I hate you, and I'm going to make your life miserable." But I think that's so common that that's what a lot of people, maybe—because, I guess I have some passion sometimes, and maybe my passion comes across a little rough, perhaps. And I don't know. I don't know. That's a part that I never think about, honestly. So . . .

[Assistant] Well, I think we all get along with different personalities, right? So you can't be the only one. Do you remember your last day at the agency in 2021?

[User] I turned off my computer in my home office, and I went downstairs and had dinner. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Oh. You were working from home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That was the end of my career. Yeah, it was really . . .

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] The office did a really neat thing, though. I think two days before, they had an online “Zoom” retirement party, and so there were squares of most of the people on the staff on my computer screen. And some people said some things. I got a chance to say some things. I had watched a woman who had worked in the Federal Register for a long time and, you know, a lot of times retirement parties are kind of a laugh-and-joking kind-of-affair. But at one point, she stood up, and she just spoke to her experience and her career. And it was moving. It was just really nice. And I thought she deserved that, you know, and we deserve to hear this person who's been here a long time. Take ten minutes to let her reflect on her life. I wanted to do that, so I did that. And I have a video of the thing, so that was very sweet. Oh, and they had a cake. They had a cake delivered to my house!

[Assistant] Oh my!

[User] So I had that in front of me. So that was very creative. But my last day was very underwhelming. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Well, so this is during COVID, right? The pandemic? And so everyone was working from home at the time. Yeah.