[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't talk about COVID, but like all the other organizations, we shut down. I mean, we shut our office, but we continued to publish the Federal Register every single day. We never missed anything. We had COVID in the office. We had a security guard who was at the Government Printing Office on Wednesday and died on Saturday from COVID. He was the guard who escorted our agency liaisons up to our office. So we were in fear of what was happening. And there were some other people in the GPO building that passed away. So those were very scary times. I remember someone saying when we first were sent home, “How long do you think it'll last? Two weeks?” And I remember rolling my eyes and saying, "Are you kidding? No way they're going to let us stay off two weeks."

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Two and a half years later we're still . . .

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Very strange, strange times.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think we all thought that. I went back into the office just the other day, and I saw the calendar was still open to March of 2020. So those are just reminders of, wow, everyone thought they were going to be right back. So, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an effort run by a team across the Agency to look at a design of the service module independent of what the Project was doing, to flesh out the requirements for the vehicle that was going to be bought through what is now the contract that Lockheed Martin has. It was an effort to take the Agency expertise against a set of requirements and determine were those the right set of requirements and what would that cost.

[Assistant] Also, you mentioned the fairings last time. You mentioned how you needed to win support for that idea. Could you share some details about coming up with that concept and then convincing management that it was the right decision?

[User] Sure. It was a group of engineers at Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio] who were trying to help the entire Orion Project with the mass to orbit problem that was both in the crew and service module. There were efforts under way for both to drop mass off the vehicle, because it was overweight. This was one of the concepts traded by a couple engineers at Glenn that had come up with the idea, and then there were a lot of technical trades. I don’t know that it was convincing management. It was probably more convincing the entire technical side that it was the right thing to do. So that happened through a series of meetings and formal technical presentations that eventually became the baseline on the vehicle.

[Assistant] The last question that I have for you based on the transcript was when you became Director at Glenn, you said that you were helping to make sure that Glenn met the milestones and commitments for EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1. Can you give a couple of examples?

[User] The primary one for EFT-1 on our side, we had a number of folks helping the vehicle overall, but the primary one for us was getting the fairing testing done to fly on EFT-1.

[Assistant] We talked about that a little bit last time. You also mentioned that you were watching EFT-1 with the Glenn folks. Were you in Florida or were you back in Ohio?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. It was a group of engineers at Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio] who were trying to help the entire Orion Project with the mass to orbit problem that was both in the crew and service module. There were efforts under way for both to drop mass off the vehicle, because it was overweight. This was one of the concepts traded by a couple engineers at Glenn that had come up with the idea, and then there were a lot of technical trades. I don’t know that it was convincing management. It was probably more convincing the entire technical side that it was the right thing to do. So that happened through a series of meetings and formal technical presentations that eventually became the baseline on the vehicle.

[Assistant] The last question that I have for you based on the transcript was when you became Director at Glenn, you said that you were helping to make sure that Glenn met the milestones and commitments for EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1. Can you give a couple of examples?

[User] The primary one for EFT-1 on our side, we had a number of folks helping the vehicle overall, but the primary one for us was getting the fairing testing done to fly on EFT-1.

[Assistant] We talked about that a little bit last time. You also mentioned that you were watching EFT-1 with the Glenn folks. Were you in Florida or were you back in Ohio?

[User] I was in Florida for the first attempt, but we had some VIPs [Very Important Persons] coming the next day to the Center, so I had to fly home. So I was at Glenn watching with the employees in our auditorium.

[Assistant] Were you present for the recovery or landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The primary one for EFT-1 on our side, we had a number of folks helping the vehicle overall, but the primary one for us was getting the fairing testing done to fly on EFT-1.

[Assistant] We talked about that a little bit last time. You also mentioned that you were watching EFT-1 with the Glenn folks. Were you in Florida or were you back in Ohio?

[User] I was in Florida for the first attempt, but we had some VIPs [Very Important Persons] coming the next day to the Center, so I had to fly home. So I was at Glenn watching with the employees in our auditorium.

[Assistant] Were you present for the recovery or landing?

[User] No, I watched that actually at the NASA Glenn Visitor Center at the Science Center in Cleveland. I went down and watched that with a number of folks from the public who were at the Science Center that day. We watched it on TV.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant challenge during your time with Orion up to EFT-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in Florida for the first attempt, but we had some VIPs [Very Important Persons] coming the next day to the Center, so I had to fly home. So I was at Glenn watching with the employees in our auditorium.

[Assistant] Were you present for the recovery or landing?

[User] No, I watched that actually at the NASA Glenn Visitor Center at the Science Center in Cleveland. I went down and watched that with a number of folks from the public who were at the Science Center that day. We watched it on TV.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant challenge during your time with Orion up to EFT-1?

[User] Boy, my personal challenge was probably getting the—I want to almost say Project sold, the ability for Glenn to be a contributor on the Project. Once the technical work came, while challenging, that was easy, because I knew we had good people. Getting the Project sold that it was okay to have Glenn be a member of the team was probably the biggest challenge.

[Assistant] Can you explain why? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m just curious. Is it because this is more of a human spaceflight endeavor, and Glenn wasn’t necessarily always included in those efforts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I watched that actually at the NASA Glenn Visitor Center at the Science Center in Cleveland. I went down and watched that with a number of folks from the public who were at the Science Center that day. We watched it on TV.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant challenge during your time with Orion up to EFT-1?

[User] Boy, my personal challenge was probably getting the—I want to almost say Project sold, the ability for Glenn to be a contributor on the Project. Once the technical work came, while challenging, that was easy, because I knew we had good people. Getting the Project sold that it was okay to have Glenn be a member of the team was probably the biggest challenge.

[Assistant] Can you explain why? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m just curious. Is it because this is more of a human spaceflight endeavor, and Glenn wasn’t necessarily always included in those efforts?

[User] I think you summed it up well. I think it was the traditional—we still say it today—the human spaceflight centers versus the robotic or the research centers. We tend to stereotype centers and capabilities, and that’s what I believe was happening with Glenn. It was stereotyped as a research center because it said research in the title, even though it had done flight projects for a number of years.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to EFT-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, my personal challenge was probably getting the—I want to almost say Project sold, the ability for Glenn to be a contributor on the Project. Once the technical work came, while challenging, that was easy, because I knew we had good people. Getting the Project sold that it was okay to have Glenn be a member of the team was probably the biggest challenge.

[Assistant] Can you explain why? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m just curious. Is it because this is more of a human spaceflight endeavor, and Glenn wasn’t necessarily always included in those efforts?

[User] I think you summed it up well. I think it was the traditional—we still say it today—the human spaceflight centers versus the robotic or the research centers. We tend to stereotype centers and capabilities, and that’s what I believe was happening with Glenn. It was stereotyped as a research center because it said research in the title, even though it had done flight projects for a number of years.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to EFT-1?

[User] I would say any contribution I had from a service module perspective or Orion perspective on the technical side was made years before that. The fairings would probably be the biggest thing. In terms of what I did from my management position, it was hopefully enable as I talked about our products to be of the quality that they needed to be to make EFT-1 successful.

[Assistant] I have a quote from Program Manager Mark Geyer. He said that the Orion Project learned to persevere. Would you agree or disagree with that statement, and why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you summed it up well. I think it was the traditional—we still say it today—the human spaceflight centers versus the robotic or the research centers. We tend to stereotype centers and capabilities, and that’s what I believe was happening with Glenn. It was stereotyped as a research center because it said research in the title, even though it had done flight projects for a number of years.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to EFT-1?

[User] I would say any contribution I had from a service module perspective or Orion perspective on the technical side was made years before that. The fairings would probably be the biggest thing. In terms of what I did from my management position, it was hopefully enable as I talked about our products to be of the quality that they needed to be to make EFT-1 successful.

[Assistant] I have a quote from Program Manager Mark Geyer. He said that the Orion Project learned to persevere. Would you agree or disagree with that statement, and why?

[User] Learn perseverance?

[Assistant] Yes. Learned to persevere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say any contribution I had from a service module perspective or Orion perspective on the technical side was made years before that. The fairings would probably be the biggest thing. In terms of what I did from my management position, it was hopefully enable as I talked about our products to be of the quality that they needed to be to make EFT-1 successful.

[Assistant] I have a quote from Program Manager Mark Geyer. He said that the Orion Project learned to persevere. Would you agree or disagree with that statement, and why?

[User] Learn perseverance?

[Assistant] Yes. Learned to persevere.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely, in many ways. Through the last presidential transition, to every technical challenge that was thrown the team’s way, to everybody knowing better how to design a vehicle, in their opinion, right, knowing better how to design the vehicle, I think they more than persevered. I think they really showed why they’re the team that’s getting it done.

[Assistant] I had a couple of questions for you just related to the service module. The EFT-1 service module was primarily a structural representation of the service module. Were there any lessons learned from that flight that are being then applied to EM-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learn perseverance?

[Assistant] Yes. Learned to persevere.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely, in many ways. Through the last presidential transition, to every technical challenge that was thrown the team’s way, to everybody knowing better how to design a vehicle, in their opinion, right, knowing better how to design the vehicle, I think they more than persevered. I think they really showed why they’re the team that’s getting it done.

[Assistant] I had a couple of questions for you just related to the service module. The EFT-1 service module was primarily a structural representation of the service module. Were there any lessons learned from that flight that are being then applied to EM-1?

[User] It was basically a structural element. I think all the environments that the service module saw from a structural perspective, meaning the loads on the structure, were certainly something that were validated via the EFT-1 flight. I know that the data has been used to inform the evolution of the design. So yes, absolutely, there were things that were learned from it.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk a little bit about the ESM [European Service Module], if you could. Can you talk about NASA’s relationship with ESA [European Space Agency] and the agreement that led to the partnership for the new ESM?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely, in many ways. Through the last presidential transition, to every technical challenge that was thrown the team’s way, to everybody knowing better how to design a vehicle, in their opinion, right, knowing better how to design the vehicle, I think they more than persevered. I think they really showed why they’re the team that’s getting it done.

[Assistant] I had a couple of questions for you just related to the service module. The EFT-1 service module was primarily a structural representation of the service module. Were there any lessons learned from that flight that are being then applied to EM-1?

[User] It was basically a structural element. I think all the environments that the service module saw from a structural perspective, meaning the loads on the structure, were certainly something that were validated via the EFT-1 flight. I know that the data has been used to inform the evolution of the design. So yes, absolutely, there were things that were learned from it.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk a little bit about the ESM [European Service Module], if you could. Can you talk about NASA’s relationship with ESA [European Space Agency] and the agreement that led to the partnership for the new ESM?

[User] I think NASA’s relationship with ESA is certainly lengthy. first of all. Second of all, it comes from our work on ISS [International Space Station]. I think it was an opportunity for Europe to play a bigger role in human spaceflight. No other country had been in the critical path, meaning it’s got to deliver for our success, meaning the U.S. success. No other country had ever been in that position before. The lessons learned from Space Station of how to work together and how to continue that trust and that development of exploration is what led to the confidence to put Europe in that position.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any of those negotiations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was basically a structural element. I think all the environments that the service module saw from a structural perspective, meaning the loads on the structure, were certainly something that were validated via the EFT-1 flight. I know that the data has been used to inform the evolution of the design. So yes, absolutely, there were things that were learned from it.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk a little bit about the ESM [European Service Module], if you could. Can you talk about NASA’s relationship with ESA [European Space Agency] and the agreement that led to the partnership for the new ESM?

[User] I think NASA’s relationship with ESA is certainly lengthy. first of all. Second of all, it comes from our work on ISS [International Space Station]. I think it was an opportunity for Europe to play a bigger role in human spaceflight. No other country had been in the critical path, meaning it’s got to deliver for our success, meaning the U.S. success. No other country had ever been in that position before. The lessons learned from Space Station of how to work together and how to continue that trust and that development of exploration is what led to the confidence to put Europe in that position.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any of those negotiations?

[User] I was not, other than supporting them at the time. I was just transitioning out of Deputy Director and transitioning into Center Director when that agreement was signed so just in terms of supporting the team, hearing about the negotiations, giving them some ideas of potentially how to do things. That was really run by the Project, and certainly Mr. [William H.] Gerstenmaier here at Headquarters.

[Assistant] What were your initial thoughts when you heard about this idea? Did you have any concerns?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think NASA’s relationship with ESA is certainly lengthy. first of all. Second of all, it comes from our work on ISS [International Space Station]. I think it was an opportunity for Europe to play a bigger role in human spaceflight. No other country had been in the critical path, meaning it’s got to deliver for our success, meaning the U.S. success. No other country had ever been in that position before. The lessons learned from Space Station of how to work together and how to continue that trust and that development of exploration is what led to the confidence to put Europe in that position.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any of those negotiations?

[User] I was not, other than supporting them at the time. I was just transitioning out of Deputy Director and transitioning into Center Director when that agreement was signed so just in terms of supporting the team, hearing about the negotiations, giving them some ideas of potentially how to do things. That was really run by the Project, and certainly Mr. [William H.] Gerstenmaier here at Headquarters.

[Assistant] What were your initial thoughts when you heard about this idea? Did you have any concerns?

[User] I don’t know if they’re concerns. Any time you put a different interface in any system, it has the potential to add complexity. But I couldn’t look myself in the eye after encouraging the Agency to entrust Glenn to do the work on service module initially by adding an interface—I was basically doing the same thing—to then look at the Agency and say, “You shouldn’t do this because it adds complexity.” I think the international piece certainly adds a whole different element to it. ESA’s motivation to be a member of the team and the wherewithal to withstand a lot of what we go through in the U.S. on human spaceflight from a political perspective, is something I think Europe has to learn. I don’t know that I had reservations.

[Assistant] Did anybody at Glenn worry about job security or any of those issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not, other than supporting them at the time. I was just transitioning out of Deputy Director and transitioning into Center Director when that agreement was signed so just in terms of supporting the team, hearing about the negotiations, giving them some ideas of potentially how to do things. That was really run by the Project, and certainly Mr. [William H.] Gerstenmaier here at Headquarters.

[Assistant] What were your initial thoughts when you heard about this idea? Did you have any concerns?

[User] I don’t know if they’re concerns. Any time you put a different interface in any system, it has the potential to add complexity. But I couldn’t look myself in the eye after encouraging the Agency to entrust Glenn to do the work on service module initially by adding an interface—I was basically doing the same thing—to then look at the Agency and say, “You shouldn’t do this because it adds complexity.” I think the international piece certainly adds a whole different element to it. ESA’s motivation to be a member of the team and the wherewithal to withstand a lot of what we go through in the U.S. on human spaceflight from a political perspective, is something I think Europe has to learn. I don’t know that I had reservations.

[Assistant] Did anybody at Glenn worry about job security or any of those issues?

[User] Boy, not that I’m aware of. I’m sure they did, but I can’t speak to the fact of anyone ever saying to me, “I’m worried that our job is getting taken away.” I think initially there may have been some thought of that. The time and effort that it takes to work with an international partner has probably had people realize that hey, there isn’t a job issue there at all. We may even have a few more resources than we had previously to do the same work.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had spent some time over in Europe recently, last time we had spoken. What is your role now working on the ESM?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know if they’re concerns. Any time you put a different interface in any system, it has the potential to add complexity. But I couldn’t look myself in the eye after encouraging the Agency to entrust Glenn to do the work on service module initially by adding an interface—I was basically doing the same thing—to then look at the Agency and say, “You shouldn’t do this because it adds complexity.” I think the international piece certainly adds a whole different element to it. ESA’s motivation to be a member of the team and the wherewithal to withstand a lot of what we go through in the U.S. on human spaceflight from a political perspective, is something I think Europe has to learn. I don’t know that I had reservations.

[Assistant] Did anybody at Glenn worry about job security or any of those issues?

[User] Boy, not that I’m aware of. I’m sure they did, but I can’t speak to the fact of anyone ever saying to me, “I’m worried that our job is getting taken away.” I think initially there may have been some thought of that. The time and effort that it takes to work with an international partner has probably had people realize that hey, there isn’t a job issue there at all. We may even have a few more resources than we had previously to do the same work.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had spent some time over in Europe recently, last time we had spoken. What is your role now working on the ESM?

[User] I’m really trying to be the person that tracks it for Mr. Gerstenmaier here in my new capacity, finding ways to build those international relationships, and really ensure that the Project has everything that it needs to get past this critical milestone. As a Headquarters person I can hopefully help with the relationship with the Europeans. So try to learn some of the folks on the Europe side that I had never worked with before and then also take my knowledge of the service module and maybe help get them through some of the difficult technical issues that they face.

[Assistant] What were some of those issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, not that I’m aware of. I’m sure they did, but I can’t speak to the fact of anyone ever saying to me, “I’m worried that our job is getting taken away.” I think initially there may have been some thought of that. The time and effort that it takes to work with an international partner has probably had people realize that hey, there isn’t a job issue there at all. We may even have a few more resources than we had previously to do the same work.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had spent some time over in Europe recently, last time we had spoken. What is your role now working on the ESM?

[User] I’m really trying to be the person that tracks it for Mr. Gerstenmaier here in my new capacity, finding ways to build those international relationships, and really ensure that the Project has everything that it needs to get past this critical milestone. As a Headquarters person I can hopefully help with the relationship with the Europeans. So try to learn some of the folks on the Europe side that I had never worked with before and then also take my knowledge of the service module and maybe help get them through some of the difficult technical issues that they face.

[Assistant] What were some of those issues?

[User] I think it’s just general development of a new spacecraft, the interfaces to the crew module being one of them. I think it’s some of the design, how things are designed differently for human-rated vehicles versus robotic vehicles. It’s probably more a cultural transition. Once you get the teams in a room talking through specific technical issues, that was demonstrated to be the easy part. It’s more gaining the perspective that each side has in this type of development.

[Assistant] Did I read correctly that recently there was a CDR [Critical Design Review] for the ESM?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m really trying to be the person that tracks it for Mr. Gerstenmaier here in my new capacity, finding ways to build those international relationships, and really ensure that the Project has everything that it needs to get past this critical milestone. As a Headquarters person I can hopefully help with the relationship with the Europeans. So try to learn some of the folks on the Europe side that I had never worked with before and then also take my knowledge of the service module and maybe help get them through some of the difficult technical issues that they face.

[Assistant] What were some of those issues?

[User] I think it’s just general development of a new spacecraft, the interfaces to the crew module being one of them. I think it’s some of the design, how things are designed differently for human-rated vehicles versus robotic vehicles. It’s probably more a cultural transition. Once you get the teams in a room talking through specific technical issues, that was demonstrated to be the easy part. It’s more gaining the perspective that each side has in this type of development.

[Assistant] Did I read correctly that recently there was a CDR [Critical Design Review] for the ESM?

[User] Yes, that’s what I was over there for, the first phase of that, and the closeout of that will be in the October timeframe.

[Assistant] That will be delivered to KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] in 2017?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it’s just general development of a new spacecraft, the interfaces to the crew module being one of them. I think it’s some of the design, how things are designed differently for human-rated vehicles versus robotic vehicles. It’s probably more a cultural transition. Once you get the teams in a room talking through specific technical issues, that was demonstrated to be the easy part. It’s more gaining the perspective that each side has in this type of development.

[Assistant] Did I read correctly that recently there was a CDR [Critical Design Review] for the ESM?

[User] Yes, that’s what I was over there for, the first phase of that, and the closeout of that will be in the October timeframe.

[Assistant] That will be delivered to KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] in 2017?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I think we’ve gone through all of my questions. You were fast today. Unless there’s anything else that you wanted to talk about in terms of ESM or any other details you think we might have overlooked when we spoke the other day or today. I know you’re on a limited time schedule.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started in February of '74 as a grade three clerk typist in the correspondence section. And then I did get a promotion to secretary of the Army Reference branch, worked for a while in the Building Manager's office, and ended my career after being Assistant Director’s secretary to being the secretary to the Director and retired in 2016.

[Assistant] Congratulations! How did you come to work at the National Archives, and why did you choose to work there?

[User] My neighbor was the Marine Corps liaison officer there, and I was looking for a job and was working at a small little store where I lived. And in talking with him, I told him that I had worked for the government before and had almost four years. And he said, "Why don't you come to work? You have reinstatement rights. I'm going to get you an application. Call CPR and get a statement of service."

[Assistant] Did you have any impressions of the agency at the time you began your career? Did you know anything about them?

[User] I knew nothing about it. I saw that a record center had burned on the fire in July of '73, but I had no idea what records they were referring to.

[Assistant] Okay. So when you started, did they give you any particular kind of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My neighbor was the Marine Corps liaison officer there, and I was looking for a job and was working at a small little store where I lived. And in talking with him, I told him that I had worked for the government before and had almost four years. And he said, "Why don't you come to work? You have reinstatement rights. I'm going to get you an application. Call CPR and get a statement of service."

[Assistant] Did you have any impressions of the agency at the time you began your career? Did you know anything about them?

[User] I knew nothing about it. I saw that a record center had burned on the fire in July of '73, but I had no idea what records they were referring to.

[Assistant] Okay. So when you started, did they give you any particular kind of training?

[User] Oh, yes. Training was short. It was mostly typing from drafts that the archives techs prepared in response to requests. But working with them taught me more than I could ever have learned otherwise.

[Assistant] Okay. Very in-hand sort of learning. Yeah. Awesome. What aspects of the work did you enjoy? Was there anything in particular that stood out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew nothing about it. I saw that a record center had burned on the fire in July of '73, but I had no idea what records they were referring to.

[Assistant] Okay. So when you started, did they give you any particular kind of training?

[User] Oh, yes. Training was short. It was mostly typing from drafts that the archives techs prepared in response to requests. But working with them taught me more than I could ever have learned otherwise.

[Assistant] Okay. Very in-hand sort of learning. Yeah. Awesome. What aspects of the work did you enjoy? Was there anything in particular that stood out?

[User] I favored being either a typist or secretarial type, but I did work cases for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a reassignment to a secretarial position, so I took that.

[Assistant] What was your work like in the secretarial position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Training was short. It was mostly typing from drafts that the archives techs prepared in response to requests. But working with them taught me more than I could ever have learned otherwise.

[Assistant] Okay. Very in-hand sort of learning. Yeah. Awesome. What aspects of the work did you enjoy? Was there anything in particular that stood out?

[User] I favored being either a typist or secretarial type, but I did work cases for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a reassignment to a secretarial position, so I took that.

[Assistant] What was your work like in the secretarial position?

[User] Well, a lot of it had to do with disciplinary actions. And at that time on, you know, electric typewriters, we had the original and five carbon copies. It also involved typing responses to requests that the Branch Chief handled. Also keeping time cards and just general clerical duties.

[Assistant] Okay, so what made you want to move to the secretarial position? Was it just that you liked the work more? Did they offer different hours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I favored being either a typist or secretarial type, but I did work cases for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a reassignment to a secretarial position, so I took that.

[Assistant] What was your work like in the secretarial position?

[User] Well, a lot of it had to do with disciplinary actions. And at that time on, you know, electric typewriters, we had the original and five carbon copies. It also involved typing responses to requests that the Branch Chief handled. Also keeping time cards and just general clerical duties.

[Assistant] Okay, so what made you want to move to the secretarial position? Was it just that you liked the work more? Did they offer different hours?

[User] I just enjoyed answering the phone, interacting with people, that type of thing. You know, having visitors come or setting up a meeting rather than just typing from drafts.

[Assistant] Okay, that makes sense. Do you recall any particularly unusual, challenging, or anything that sticks out in your mind regarding your job in its entirety from the beginning to the end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, a lot of it had to do with disciplinary actions. And at that time on, you know, electric typewriters, we had the original and five carbon copies. It also involved typing responses to requests that the Branch Chief handled. Also keeping time cards and just general clerical duties.

[Assistant] Okay, so what made you want to move to the secretarial position? Was it just that you liked the work more? Did they offer different hours?

[User] I just enjoyed answering the phone, interacting with people, that type of thing. You know, having visitors come or setting up a meeting rather than just typing from drafts.

[Assistant] Okay, that makes sense. Do you recall any particularly unusual, challenging, or anything that sticks out in your mind regarding your job in its entirety from the beginning to the end?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you know if changes in Presidential administrations or changes for the Archivists of the U.S. administrations, did that change the nature of your work at all, or was it pretty consistent regardless of who was President?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just enjoyed answering the phone, interacting with people, that type of thing. You know, having visitors come or setting up a meeting rather than just typing from drafts.

[Assistant] Okay, that makes sense. Do you recall any particularly unusual, challenging, or anything that sticks out in your mind regarding your job in its entirety from the beginning to the end?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you know if changes in Presidential administrations or changes for the Archivists of the U.S. administrations, did that change the nature of your work at all, or was it pretty consistent regardless of who was President?

[User] My work was pretty consistent.

[Assistant] Okay, that's what we're getting from a lot of people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you know if changes in Presidential administrations or changes for the Archivists of the U.S. administrations, did that change the nature of your work at all, or was it pretty consistent regardless of who was President?

[User] My work was pretty consistent.

[Assistant] Okay, that's what we're getting from a lot of people.

[User] Well, you know, veterans write in that they need this, this, this or that from the record, and we provided it hopefully.

[Assistant] What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My work was pretty consistent.

[Assistant] Okay, that's what we're getting from a lot of people.

[User] Well, you know, veterans write in that they need this, this, this or that from the record, and we provided it hopefully.

[Assistant] What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career?

[User] I guess when I was selected to be the secretary to the Assistant Director. And then when the Director's secretary retired, I applied to be the Director's secretary. Okay.

[Assistant] What was that selection process like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, veterans write in that they need this, this, this or that from the record, and we provided it hopefully.

[Assistant] What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career?

[User] I guess when I was selected to be the secretary to the Assistant Director. And then when the Director's secretary retired, I applied to be the Director's secretary. Okay.

[Assistant] What was that selection process like?

[User] For the Assistant Director. I think back then, I can't remember what year I was selected for that position. It was like a written resume or he was aware of the work that all the applicants did because we were all in the center. For the Director's secretary position, it was done online.

[Assistant] Okay, did you have any relationship with the other federal agencies like the Army, the VA, Air Force, any of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess when I was selected to be the secretary to the Assistant Director. And then when the Director's secretary retired, I applied to be the Director's secretary. Okay.

[Assistant] What was that selection process like?

[User] For the Assistant Director. I think back then, I can't remember what year I was selected for that position. It was like a written resume or he was aware of the work that all the applicants did because we were all in the center. For the Director's secretary position, it was done online.

[Assistant] Okay, did you have any relationship with the other federal agencies like the Army, the VA, Air Force, any of those?

[User] I began working for the government at the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center. It became Defense Mapping, and it now has another name, National Geospatial something or other.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working at NARA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the Assistant Director. I think back then, I can't remember what year I was selected for that position. It was like a written resume or he was aware of the work that all the applicants did because we were all in the center. For the Director's secretary position, it was done online.

[Assistant] Okay, did you have any relationship with the other federal agencies like the Army, the VA, Air Force, any of those?

[User] I began working for the government at the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center. It became Defense Mapping, and it now has another name, National Geospatial something or other.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working at NARA?

[User] Well, becoming the secretary to the Director brought me to a grade level I'd never thought I would achieve and felt very proud of myself for accomplishing that.

[Assistant] As you should. That's a very competitive position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I began working for the government at the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center. It became Defense Mapping, and it now has another name, National Geospatial something or other.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working at NARA?

[User] Well, becoming the secretary to the Director brought me to a grade level I'd never thought I would achieve and felt very proud of myself for accomplishing that.

[Assistant] As you should. That's a very competitive position.

[User] Yeah, it is.

[Assistant] Okay. What kind of technological advancements have you observed throughout your career there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, becoming the secretary to the Director brought me to a grade level I'd never thought I would achieve and felt very proud of myself for accomplishing that.

[Assistant] As you should. That's a very competitive position.

[User] Yeah, it is.

[Assistant] Okay. What kind of technological advancements have you observed throughout your career there?

[User] Well, starting with doing everything with pencil and paper to getting computers, learning how to do time and attendance on computers, searching for records on computers, or requesting records on computers, everything. It just was a whole new thing because everything in the beginning was paper and pencil.

[Assistant] And carbon copies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it is.

[Assistant] Okay. What kind of technological advancements have you observed throughout your career there?

[User] Well, starting with doing everything with pencil and paper to getting computers, learning how to do time and attendance on computers, searching for records on computers, or requesting records on computers, everything. It just was a whole new thing because everything in the beginning was paper and pencil.

[Assistant] And carbon copies.

[User] Yes, carbon copies.

[Assistant] Do you recall your last day at the National Archives? What did that feel like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, starting with doing everything with pencil and paper to getting computers, learning how to do time and attendance on computers, searching for records on computers, or requesting records on computers, everything. It just was a whole new thing because everything in the beginning was paper and pencil.

[Assistant] And carbon copies.

[User] Yes, carbon copies.

[Assistant] Do you recall your last day at the National Archives? What did that feel like?

[User] My work day or my retirement day?

[Assistant] I was thinking work day, but we can go with retirement day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, carbon copies.

[Assistant] Do you recall your last day at the National Archives? What did that feel like?

[User] My work day or my retirement day?

[Assistant] I was thinking work day, but we can go with retirement day.

[User] Retirement day was amazing because I don't think I even went up to my office until after the party and finished cleaning out. But it was quite humbling. There were a lot of people there. My family was there, but the highlight was when Jay Trainer put on a St. Louis Cardinals hat for me. That was just shocking. Jay was a good guy. But for him to do that, I think it caused him a little bit of pain.

[Assistant] Not a fan of the Cards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My work day or my retirement day?

[Assistant] I was thinking work day, but we can go with retirement day.

[User] Retirement day was amazing because I don't think I even went up to my office until after the party and finished cleaning out. But it was quite humbling. There were a lot of people there. My family was there, but the highlight was when Jay Trainer put on a St. Louis Cardinals hat for me. That was just shocking. Jay was a good guy. But for him to do that, I think it caused him a little bit of pain.

[Assistant] Not a fan of the Cards?

[User] Oh, I can't remember who he likes. Cincinnati Reds. It was not his team. It was not his team.

[Assistant] That was a sacrifice then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Retirement day was amazing because I don't think I even went up to my office until after the party and finished cleaning out. But it was quite humbling. There were a lot of people there. My family was there, but the highlight was when Jay Trainer put on a St. Louis Cardinals hat for me. That was just shocking. Jay was a good guy. But for him to do that, I think it caused him a little bit of pain.

[Assistant] Not a fan of the Cards?

[User] Oh, I can't remember who he likes. Cincinnati Reds. It was not his team. It was not his team.

[Assistant] That was a sacrifice then.

[User] Yes, definitely.

[Assistant] How do you view your time in the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I can't remember who he likes. Cincinnati Reds. It was not his team. It was not his team.

[Assistant] That was a sacrifice then.

[User] Yes, definitely.

[Assistant] How do you view your time in the National Archives?

[User] What do you mean?

[Assistant] So, looking back on it, are you like, do you kind of miss it? Are you proud of it? Are you like, "I am retired now? I'm done with it all."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, definitely.

[Assistant] How do you view your time in the National Archives?

[User] What do you mean?

[Assistant] So, looking back on it, are you like, do you kind of miss it? Are you proud of it? Are you like, "I am retired now? I'm done with it all."

[User] I am retired now. I don't miss it. I do think of some of the people I worked with. It was a very good work experience. It was a good, good place to work with a lot of nice, very smart people. And there was a lot of history, and I learned a lot of things working there well.

[Assistant] So what message or advice would you give to someone just starting at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What do you mean?

[Assistant] So, looking back on it, are you like, do you kind of miss it? Are you proud of it? Are you like, "I am retired now? I'm done with it all."

[User] I am retired now. I don't miss it. I do think of some of the people I worked with. It was a very good work experience. It was a good, good place to work with a lot of nice, very smart people. And there was a lot of history, and I learned a lot of things working there well.

[Assistant] So what message or advice would you give to someone just starting at the National Archives?

[User] Do your best. Work hard. I mean, today you have a much better chance of advancing and making a fairly good salary than we did back when.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add to the section of the interview that is obviously career specific? Anything else in your career you'd like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am retired now. I don't miss it. I do think of some of the people I worked with. It was a very good work experience. It was a good, good place to work with a lot of nice, very smart people. And there was a lot of history, and I learned a lot of things working there well.

[Assistant] So what message or advice would you give to someone just starting at the National Archives?

[User] Do your best. Work hard. I mean, today you have a much better chance of advancing and making a fairly good salary than we did back when.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add to the section of the interview that is obviously career specific? Anything else in your career you'd like to mention?

[User] No, not really. I think most of it was very good, you know, I mean, there were a few things I didn't care for from time to time, but that goes with anything. If I'm going to shout out to somebody, it would be to the mailroom people. They were always there to help. They were great. They were great.

[Assistant] Awesome. So now, because the oral histories are in part looking at the 1973 anniversary of the fire, I'm going to move on to questions that are a little more specific about the fire and its aftermath. Okay. I know that you didn't start until 1974, but I'm sure that there was a lot still going on with the fire. Well, first of all, do you remember anything about hearing about the fire before you started when it was happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do your best. Work hard. I mean, today you have a much better chance of advancing and making a fairly good salary than we did back when.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add to the section of the interview that is obviously career specific? Anything else in your career you'd like to mention?

[User] No, not really. I think most of it was very good, you know, I mean, there were a few things I didn't care for from time to time, but that goes with anything. If I'm going to shout out to somebody, it would be to the mailroom people. They were always there to help. They were great. They were great.

[Assistant] Awesome. So now, because the oral histories are in part looking at the 1973 anniversary of the fire, I'm going to move on to questions that are a little more specific about the fire and its aftermath. Okay. I know that you didn't start until 1974, but I'm sure that there was a lot still going on with the fire. Well, first of all, do you remember anything about hearing about the fire before you started when it was happening?

[User] I saw it on TV. It was on the news that the record center was on fire. I had no idea what records they were referring to. I had never heard of the record center.

[Assistant] Okay. So I bet it was a big shock to come there '74 and realize just how much that affected things. What was it like starting at the National Archives right after the fire? What kind of impact did you see on how people did their job day to day? How did it affect everyone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I think most of it was very good, you know, I mean, there were a few things I didn't care for from time to time, but that goes with anything. If I'm going to shout out to somebody, it would be to the mailroom people. They were always there to help. They were great. They were great.

[Assistant] Awesome. So now, because the oral histories are in part looking at the 1973 anniversary of the fire, I'm going to move on to questions that are a little more specific about the fire and its aftermath. Okay. I know that you didn't start until 1974, but I'm sure that there was a lot still going on with the fire. Well, first of all, do you remember anything about hearing about the fire before you started when it was happening?

[User] I saw it on TV. It was on the news that the record center was on fire. I had no idea what records they were referring to. I had never heard of the record center.

[Assistant] Okay. So I bet it was a big shock to come there '74 and realize just how much that affected things. What was it like starting at the National Archives right after the fire? What kind of impact did you see on how people did their job day to day? How did it affect everyone?

[User] Well, I was a little bit nervous about starting. I hadn't worked in about 12 years. People seemed to be pretty conscientious about doing their job. The offices were in a huge room. Everybody was together and the supervisors were able to see if you were not doing your job or kind of goofing off, they could see and fix that right away. But it was a good place. And it seemed like people were there to do their work, do their job.

[Assistant] Okay. At that point in time, did you interact with the burnt records at all? Did you see the burnt records in any capacity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw it on TV. It was on the news that the record center was on fire. I had no idea what records they were referring to. I had never heard of the record center.

[Assistant] Okay. So I bet it was a big shock to come there '74 and realize just how much that affected things. What was it like starting at the National Archives right after the fire? What kind of impact did you see on how people did their job day to day? How did it affect everyone?

[User] Well, I was a little bit nervous about starting. I hadn't worked in about 12 years. People seemed to be pretty conscientious about doing their job. The offices were in a huge room. Everybody was together and the supervisors were able to see if you were not doing your job or kind of goofing off, they could see and fix that right away. But it was a good place. And it seemed like people were there to do their work, do their job.

[Assistant] Okay. At that point in time, did you interact with the burnt records at all? Did you see the burnt records in any capacity?

[User] Actually, I saw records opened up on the window sills in the offices with the windows open, trying to dry them out. And we have come such a long way from that. But upon entering the building, you could smell the dampness and then you could see maybe water stains or wet stains on the wall still. And then you would maybe see a little puddle here and there. But for the records when I worked cases, that was an eye opener because I worked in the Records Reconstruction Branch, where we did get all the burnt records.

[Assistant] So during your job in the Records Reconstruction Branch, what were your responsibilities there at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a little bit nervous about starting. I hadn't worked in about 12 years. People seemed to be pretty conscientious about doing their job. The offices were in a huge room. Everybody was together and the supervisors were able to see if you were not doing your job or kind of goofing off, they could see and fix that right away. But it was a good place. And it seemed like people were there to do their work, do their job.

[Assistant] Okay. At that point in time, did you interact with the burnt records at all? Did you see the burnt records in any capacity?

[User] Actually, I saw records opened up on the window sills in the offices with the windows open, trying to dry them out. And we have come such a long way from that. But upon entering the building, you could smell the dampness and then you could see maybe water stains or wet stains on the wall still. And then you would maybe see a little puddle here and there. But for the records when I worked cases, that was an eye opener because I worked in the Records Reconstruction Branch, where we did get all the burnt records.

[Assistant] So during your job in the Records Reconstruction Branch, what were your responsibilities there at the time?

[User] Basically, I was a secretary to the Branch Chief, but I had been an archives tech and worked cases, the position right before that. And so I knew how to work cases. I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch.

[Assistant] Okay. When the fire occurred, it was largely on the sixth floor. So it affected the records on the fifth and the sixth floors. Where were the records being stored at this time? Immediately after, when you started work, do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, I saw records opened up on the window sills in the offices with the windows open, trying to dry them out. And we have come such a long way from that. But upon entering the building, you could smell the dampness and then you could see maybe water stains or wet stains on the wall still. And then you would maybe see a little puddle here and there. But for the records when I worked cases, that was an eye opener because I worked in the Records Reconstruction Branch, where we did get all the burnt records.

[Assistant] So during your job in the Records Reconstruction Branch, what were your responsibilities there at the time?

[User] Basically, I was a secretary to the Branch Chief, but I had been an archives tech and worked cases, the position right before that. And so I knew how to work cases. I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch.

[Assistant] Okay. When the fire occurred, it was largely on the sixth floor. So it affected the records on the fifth and the sixth floors. Where were the records being stored at this time? Immediately after, when you started work, do you remember?

[User] The records that were not involved?

[Assistant] So the records that had been burned but were still salvageable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically, I was a secretary to the Branch Chief, but I had been an archives tech and worked cases, the position right before that. And so I knew how to work cases. I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch.

[Assistant] Okay. When the fire occurred, it was largely on the sixth floor. So it affected the records on the fifth and the sixth floors. Where were the records being stored at this time? Immediately after, when you started work, do you remember?

[User] The records that were not involved?

[Assistant] So the records that had been burned but were still salvageable.

[User] Oh, I really don't know. I don't know. I'm not aware that they were able to salvage any of them on the sixth floor. But I could be wrong about that. I don't know.

[Assistant] Okay. Where was your office? What floor was it on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I really don't know. I don't know. I'm not aware that they were able to salvage any of them on the sixth floor. But I could be wrong about that. I don't know.

[Assistant] Okay. Where was your office? What floor was it on?

[User] Mostly on the second floor.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Recon [Reconstruction Branch] was started on the ground floor at the east end of the building. And then we came up to the second floor.

[Assistant] Okay, What did Recon do at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly on the second floor.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Recon [Reconstruction Branch] was started on the ground floor at the east end of the building. And then we came up to the second floor.

[Assistant] Okay, What did Recon do at the time?

[User] Well, mostly they worked with the burnt records or fire-related records, I should say. And they had different sources they could go to to help verify service if it wasn't contained in the record or if they couldn't actually get through the record. They had an organizational records section which searched organizational records, and we had our own search section, which had service number index, pay vouchers, and documents like that that you could go to verify certain parts of a person's military service.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. We still occasionally have stuff like that. We still go to that. Do you recall how many records requests were coming in per week at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Recon [Reconstruction Branch] was started on the ground floor at the east end of the building. And then we came up to the second floor.

[Assistant] Okay, What did Recon do at the time?

[User] Well, mostly they worked with the burnt records or fire-related records, I should say. And they had different sources they could go to to help verify service if it wasn't contained in the record or if they couldn't actually get through the record. They had an organizational records section which searched organizational records, and we had our own search section, which had service number index, pay vouchers, and documents like that that you could go to verify certain parts of a person's military service.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. We still occasionally have stuff like that. We still go to that. Do you recall how many records requests were coming in per week at the time?

[User] I could be wrong here, but I think when the backlog would reach 100,000, the center Director would go, no way. So yeah, I don't know how many were coming in, but I know when the backlog hit, if it came near 100,000, that was not acceptable.

[Assistant] Okay, so at the very beginning when you did actually work as an archives technician, how many of the requests for records would you estimate were for ones that were burnt versus ones that were not damaged.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, mostly they worked with the burnt records or fire-related records, I should say. And they had different sources they could go to to help verify service if it wasn't contained in the record or if they couldn't actually get through the record. They had an organizational records section which searched organizational records, and we had our own search section, which had service number index, pay vouchers, and documents like that that you could go to verify certain parts of a person's military service.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. We still occasionally have stuff like that. We still go to that. Do you recall how many records requests were coming in per week at the time?

[User] I could be wrong here, but I think when the backlog would reach 100,000, the center Director would go, no way. So yeah, I don't know how many were coming in, but I know when the backlog hit, if it came near 100,000, that was not acceptable.

[Assistant] Okay, so at the very beginning when you did actually work as an archives technician, how many of the requests for records would you estimate were for ones that were burnt versus ones that were not damaged.

[User] Well, when I worked in the Archives as an archives tech, I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch, so I did not have burnt records to deal with.

[Assistant] You got to avoid those ones. So did you ever have to deal with the original burnt records at any point in time? Did you have to physically handle them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could be wrong here, but I think when the backlog would reach 100,000, the center Director would go, no way. So yeah, I don't know how many were coming in, but I know when the backlog hit, if it came near 100,000, that was not acceptable.

[Assistant] Okay, so at the very beginning when you did actually work as an archives technician, how many of the requests for records would you estimate were for ones that were burnt versus ones that were not damaged.

[User] Well, when I worked in the Archives as an archives tech, I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch, so I did not have burnt records to deal with.

[Assistant] You got to avoid those ones. So did you ever have to deal with the original burnt records at any point in time? Did you have to physically handle them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. What did they look like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when I worked in the Archives as an archives tech, I worked in the Air Force Reference Branch, so I did not have burnt records to deal with.

[Assistant] You got to avoid those ones. So did you ever have to deal with the original burnt records at any point in time? Did you have to physically handle them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. What did they look like?

[User] Well, they varied from just being singed around the edges to opening a record and finding half of the document was burnt, and sometimes because they had had water damage, when you tried to separate the pages, they would crinkle and crack. So you really couldn't get into the record at all.

[Assistant] So when you were handling them, did you have to wear anything like masks or gloves at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. What did they look like?

[User] Well, they varied from just being singed around the edges to opening a record and finding half of the document was burnt, and sometimes because they had had water damage, when you tried to separate the pages, they would crinkle and crack. So you really couldn't get into the record at all.

[Assistant] So when you were handling them, did you have to wear anything like masks or gloves at the time.

[User] No.

[Assistant] None of that was needed at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they varied from just being singed around the edges to opening a record and finding half of the document was burnt, and sometimes because they had had water damage, when you tried to separate the pages, they would crinkle and crack. So you really couldn't get into the record at all.

[Assistant] So when you were handling them, did you have to wear anything like masks or gloves at the time.

[User] No.

[Assistant] None of that was needed at the time?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Did they smell like smoke?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] None of that was needed at the time?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Did they smell like smoke?

[User] They had a certain smell. I don't think it was smoke. It was more like wet paper, damp, you know. And sometimes when you'd open it up, you'd kind of start itching because maybe there were like little paper mites or something in them.

[Assistant] Were they moldy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Did they smell like smoke?

[User] They had a certain smell. I don't think it was smoke. It was more like wet paper, damp, you know. And sometimes when you'd open it up, you'd kind of start itching because maybe there were like little paper mites or something in them.

[Assistant] Were they moldy?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. In the years immediately after the fire. So let's say '74, '75, '76, how much did people commemorate the anniversary? Did they pause and remember and think about the fire every July 12th? Or was it just kind of going about your business?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had a certain smell. I don't think it was smoke. It was more like wet paper, damp, you know. And sometimes when you'd open it up, you'd kind of start itching because maybe there were like little paper mites or something in them.

[Assistant] Were they moldy?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. In the years immediately after the fire. So let's say '74, '75, '76, how much did people commemorate the anniversary? Did they pause and remember and think about the fire every July 12th? Or was it just kind of going about your business?

[User] Yeah, it was. I mean, we knew the date, but no, nothing specific was remembered or celebrated or whatever.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. Did your work change the way that you view records or the importance of records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. In the years immediately after the fire. So let's say '74, '75, '76, how much did people commemorate the anniversary? Did they pause and remember and think about the fire every July 12th? Or was it just kind of going about your business?

[User] Yeah, it was. I mean, we knew the date, but no, nothing specific was remembered or celebrated or whatever.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. Did your work change the way that you view records or the importance of records?

[User] Absolutely. Well, not knowing that the records even existed or not ever having thought about it since I didn't know what records were there on Page. Yes, for sure it did.

[Assistant] Yes, okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes. We’d also tell the contractors what we felt needed to be done to improve their simulations.\n\n Can you tell if I’m recording or not?

[Assistant] I believe you are.

[User] Okay. I was just wondering here.

[Assistant] Yes. Everything sounds good.

[User] I didn’t want to be doing all this blabbing here and not have it recorded.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. The good thing about this [recorder] is it actually has two different reads, for both of our mikes on it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. I was just wondering here.

[Assistant] Yes. Everything sounds good.

[User] I didn’t want to be doing all this blabbing here and not have it recorded.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. The good thing about this [recorder] is it actually has two different reads, for both of our mikes on it.

[User] Now the next question I had is do you want me just to go right on through to the projects that I did?

[Assistant] If that flows well for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t want to be doing all this blabbing here and not have it recorded.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. The good thing about this [recorder] is it actually has two different reads, for both of our mikes on it.

[User] Now the next question I had is do you want me just to go right on through to the projects that I did?

[Assistant] If that flows well for you.

[User] Are you interested in those sorts of things?

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely, absolutely.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Neil said that. It was very comforting to find out that the lunar module flew quite similar in terms of attitude, in terms of handling characteristics as the lunar landing training vehicle. Of course, that’s one of the satisfactions that you get personally as a reward other than some little medal that somebody might pin on your chest and say “Good boy, Dean.” It’s something that you remember long after you’re gone from the program. It’s something you feel very proud of that you did even if nobody else knows, or very few people know that you did it.

[Assistant] It certainly is something to be proud of.

[User] I don’t know whether I’ve covered your question or not.

[Assistant] You’ve covered it pretty well.

[User] There are a lot of other subtle differences between the vehicles as well, but I think those were the major things. The major thing that was important to the astronaut was the recognition of the attitude and that they had to refer to instruments rather than look out the window because you really couldn’t judge your pitch by looking out the window. The second thing was to crank up a good pitch angle and hold it and wait to see what the response was as you were descending to the lunar surface to null out your velocity.\n\n In Neil’s case, he got down fairly close to the surface and was horizontal, stopped his descent and flew along horizontal just above the place where he was getting the dust cloud because he could see places where he didn’t want to land since we was horizontal now. Then rather than have to pitch the vehicle up, it wasn’t much of a pitch then to stop the vehicle because he was only going forward at a few feet per second at that point in time. So he could pitch it up at a relatively benign angle and stop his velocity and then set down, which he did with maybe ten seconds’ worth of fuel left.

[Assistant] Did you follow the landing very closely? Do you remember where you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I wasn’t there. I had told Deke [Donald K. Slayton] that since I had spent the last two years prior to the lunar landing almost totally dedicated to that vehicle, plus some of these other tasks that I had, I was usually out there twenty hours a day, seven days a week for two years because there were always problems and there were always decisions to be made. We had accidents and we had to put a third vehicle in the wind tunnel to determine what our real problems were. There were always electrical and electronic bugs to fix, things that we couldn’t imagine happening on the vehicle but it did; such as, the system always switching into backup at certain times when we were flying it. We had no idea why until we finally wondered if that big search radar that Ellington had was causing us a problem. So we had telecommunications division come out and set up a system to measure the electromagnetic pulse we were getting from the search radar. Sure enough, when that thing was pointed right at us, in flight or on the ground, it would switch our electronic system.\n\n If you believe the readings, everybody out there was sterile.

[Assistant] Well, that’s not quite so good.

[User] Because the energy was so strong. What we got the Air Force to do with some cajoling was to turn the radar system off or point it in a different direction and leave our sector clear while we were flying the crews out there. But that jumps ahead quite a ways from your list of questions, if we want to take things in order.

[Assistant] Sure. We can go back. It all seemed to flow logically there, so that’s all right.

[User] There’s probably some other things we could talk about on the project, but—

[Assistant] Sure. Well, we can always come back to it, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the energy was so strong. What we got the Air Force to do with some cajoling was to turn the radar system off or point it in a different direction and leave our sector clear while we were flying the crews out there. But that jumps ahead quite a ways from your list of questions, if we want to take things in order.

[Assistant] Sure. We can go back. It all seemed to flow logically there, so that’s all right.

[User] There’s probably some other things we could talk about on the project, but—

[Assistant] Sure. Well, we can always come back to it, too.

[User] You have my orbital rendezvous work with Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin [Jr.]. That’s a long story. The one thing I’ll say about Buzz is that he could come up with more ideas in five minutes than would take me twenty-four hours to shoot down.\n\n He had a lot of good ideas, and some we incorporated into the orbital rendezvous procedures. Buzz wrote his Ph.D. thesis on orbital rendezvous when he at MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] before he got selected as an astronaut. So that’s why they always called him Mr. Rendezvous, if you’ve ever heard that statement.\n\n It’s interesting that Buzz, I don’t know how widely he admitted this, but he admitted that after working on the actual orbital rendezvous with me and others during the Gemini spacecraft flight, that he found out that his thesis was wrong, or at least some parts of it were wrong. [Laughter]

[Assistant] It’s always a learning process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not on anything. He was adamant about that. So before we’d come down, they sent Bill [Howard W.] Tindall [Jr.], who was the assistant director for?I can’t remember what the name of his division was at the time that he was in. It’s like MOD or something close to that.

[Assistant] MPAD or Mission Planning [and Analysis Division]—

[User] MPAD, MPAD. I loved that guy. I’m sorry that he’s gone.

[Assistant] Yes, we’re very sorry about that.

[User] His Tindallgrams were just priceless.

[Assistant] If you could hold that thought real quick, I’ll change out the tape. [Tape change]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] MPAD, MPAD. I loved that guy. I’m sorry that he’s gone.

[Assistant] Yes, we’re very sorry about that.

[User] His Tindallgrams were just priceless.

[Assistant] If you could hold that thought real quick, I’ll change out the tape. [Tape change]

[User] So they had sent Bill Tindall before they had this big meeting at MSC because he was over that group that I had tried to work with for developing the trajectories and procedures and so forth at JSC. They weren’t able to, their computer would not do what I needed one, and they agreed with that. Bob [Robert W.] Becker was the guy that I worked with at that point in time, and [Edgar C.] Lineberry.\n\n So Bill came up and sat with the crew and watched them for a day, and he said, “Yep, Dean, it works.” So he went [home]. So when they asked Bill, oh, this guy at Headquarters says we need to get [The] Boeing [Company], who was the Headquarters contractor at that time supporting Headquarters, and they did theoretically all these analytical studies to give Headquarters the warm and bubbly feelings. He [the Headquarters guy] said, “We need to have Boeing take six months and run a good analysis of orbital rendezvous and Grimm’s procedures and so forth, because we think it’s snake oil.” So he recommended that the orbital rendezvous thing be postponed, the mission be postponed.

[Assistant] This was already while the Gemini Program is in process now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guenter, Guenter, yes. I never can remember his name, but yes.\n\n So there was just a lot of things going on. My plate was certainly full during that period of time. I’m sure other peoples’ were too, but the one thing that if I ever had to criticize Warren North about was that he didn’t trust a lot of people, and you had to prove yourself to him. But once you proved yourself to him, there was no limit to what he would dump on you. [Laughter] And he dumped on me.

[Assistant] I guess proving yourself wasn’t necessarily a good thing then, was it?

[User] That’s probably true, but I was a glutton for punishment, and of course, like I’d said earlier, I always loved challenges. I was so into this program that I couldn’t hardly wait to go to work every day.

[Assistant] That’s nice. A lot of people can’t say that.

[User] It was that way up until probably the last three years of my time with NASA.

[Assistant] That’s really good. That’s very fortunate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s probably true, but I was a glutton for punishment, and of course, like I’d said earlier, I always loved challenges. I was so into this program that I couldn’t hardly wait to go to work every day.

[Assistant] That’s nice. A lot of people can’t say that.

[User] It was that way up until probably the last three years of my time with NASA.

[Assistant] That’s really good. That’s very fortunate.

[User] Of course, it’s been that way at Boeing, when I was at Convair, when I was with FAA, I just loved my job and dug into it and said there’s always things to learn and always to grow, always ways to do new things and there almost wasn’t a challenge that I wouldn’t accept. Fortunately I was in the position where you could do those things, and then I had a boss who had enough confidence in me to let me do it. That’s a wonderful to have, because I would say that there’s not many people that can say during their professional career that they had a boss who had confidence in them and let them do their thing without much guidance.\n\n Of course, in many things we were doing there wasn’t much guidance to be given because everything we were doing was new. It was a one-of-a-kind first-time project.

[Assistant] Never been done before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was that way up until probably the last three years of my time with NASA.

[Assistant] That’s really good. That’s very fortunate.

[User] Of course, it’s been that way at Boeing, when I was at Convair, when I was with FAA, I just loved my job and dug into it and said there’s always things to learn and always to grow, always ways to do new things and there almost wasn’t a challenge that I wouldn’t accept. Fortunately I was in the position where you could do those things, and then I had a boss who had enough confidence in me to let me do it. That’s a wonderful to have, because I would say that there’s not many people that can say during their professional career that they had a boss who had confidence in them and let them do their thing without much guidance.\n\n Of course, in many things we were doing there wasn’t much guidance to be given because everything we were doing was new. It was a one-of-a-kind first-time project.

[Assistant] Never been done before.

[User] Never been done before. And thank God, we didn’t make many mistakes.

[Assistant] It all came together so well, considering how little background there was in it all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, it’s been that way at Boeing, when I was at Convair, when I was with FAA, I just loved my job and dug into it and said there’s always things to learn and always to grow, always ways to do new things and there almost wasn’t a challenge that I wouldn’t accept. Fortunately I was in the position where you could do those things, and then I had a boss who had enough confidence in me to let me do it. That’s a wonderful to have, because I would say that there’s not many people that can say during their professional career that they had a boss who had confidence in them and let them do their thing without much guidance.\n\n Of course, in many things we were doing there wasn’t much guidance to be given because everything we were doing was new. It was a one-of-a-kind first-time project.

[Assistant] Never been done before.

[User] Never been done before. And thank God, we didn’t make many mistakes.

[Assistant] It all came together so well, considering how little background there was in it all.

[User] So I think that covers the—there’s some interesting things that happened during that orbital rendezvous training that I won’t get into, but would make for a spicy book sometime. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Talking a little bit on rendezvous, later in the program, after it was proved out for the first couple missions in Gemini, then later they began testing different types of rendezvous, even one that was the direct rendezvous. Were a lot of those procedures based on what you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was doing other things at that point in time. I had people there in the control rooms but I was not there. I think that Holloway, Tommy or some of his people and Lineberry over in MPAD and Paul Cramer’s group from the mission planning branch?that’s not his title. I can’t remember what it was?that was in our division, was the one working with Lineberry to develop the different rendezvous concepts at that point in time. I sort of passed it off because I told Warren this wasn’t my area of expertise.\n\n We proved our point and had been successful and had backup procedures and it was time for the people who had that responsibility to pick it up.

[Assistant] Of course, by the end of this you had sort of become somewhat of an expert in the area.

[User] More than I had ever envisioned, yes.\n\n But so I think that kind of covers most of the things on the Gemini missions that I was involved in.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were also involved with the crew stations, but that was primarily on Apollo; is that correct?

[User] Mainly on Apollo. As I said, the only thing I was involved with the crew station was the handling qualities for the docking area and the things I’ve already covered on the Gemini Program. I was much more involved in the crew station area in Apollo [Command Module and] in the Lunar Module area and so forth.\n\n So I think you asked the question on the next line there about did I participate in actual missions? Only on that one, was I over there.\n\n You asked what my thoughts were when they successfully achieved rendezvous. I had no doubt. I was very pleased, obviously, and I think I even got a commendation, I think on that. Should have been money, but it was only a commendation.

[Assistant] At least there was recognition for your efforts. Did that come from Headquarters? Were they finally recognizing that, yes, your procedures had—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More than I had ever envisioned, yes.\n\n But so I think that kind of covers most of the things on the Gemini missions that I was involved in.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were also involved with the crew stations, but that was primarily on Apollo; is that correct?

[User] Mainly on Apollo. As I said, the only thing I was involved with the crew station was the handling qualities for the docking area and the things I’ve already covered on the Gemini Program. I was much more involved in the crew station area in Apollo [Command Module and] in the Lunar Module area and so forth.\n\n So I think you asked the question on the next line there about did I participate in actual missions? Only on that one, was I over there.\n\n You asked what my thoughts were when they successfully achieved rendezvous. I had no doubt. I was very pleased, obviously, and I think I even got a commendation, I think on that. Should have been money, but it was only a commendation.

[Assistant] At least there was recognition for your efforts. Did that come from Headquarters? Were they finally recognizing that, yes, your procedures had—

[User] No, that didn’t come from Headquarters. That came from JSC. I think Warren put me in for that commendation. At that time they weren’t giving out the exceptional service medals, distinguished service medals like they did later in the program. In the initial parts of the programs, only the crews got it. A little later, only the wheels got it. By the end of the program, those things were being given out like stickers for the calendar.

[Assistant] You have a very good method of putting it all together, I guess.\n\n Moving into Apollo then, and maybe we could talk some about you were involved with the subsystems on the command module and the crew stations. At what point did you become involved in this and how much of the design had already been settled on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] LT-8, and we manned that on at least two different occasions, checking out various aspects of the procedures, suits and systems. Then at the same time, I had another group of people that were working experiments and a number of us were still flying simulations. So that was kind of a smorgasbord of activities that I was doing while I had that organization. That was the Operation Support Office under Warren [North].

[Assistant] It must have been a unique challenge for you in a way to balance the engineering, which had been your training and your background with all this management, and to make the two mesh.

[User] I never considered it a problem. A lot of people that worked for me, worked with me, some of them to this day would accuse me of micromanaging the organization because I looked into everything. But by the same token, what I told some of these people was that when I can see that you’re doing your job, you will no longer see me. But if you manage your job like you’re supposed to, then you won’t have to worry about me micromanaging your part of the organization.

[Assistant] That makes sense.

[User] That’s exactly what happened. I said, “As long as I see problems with your organization, you’re going to see me looking over your shoulder. When I no longer see problems, you won’t see me.” That’s kind of the way I operated, although I had a very good knowledge of what was going on in all of these areas, mainly because I was interested. Some people do it from a management standpoint and never get their hands dirty. I was out there, I’d be walking through the organization at midnight.\n\n I’ve got a hard hat up there that they painted red, and it says “The Chief” on it. The reason why they had that hard hat painted red is because they were surprised so many times by me, unfortunately in many cases, that they gave me that hard hat. I would wear it so that they could see me coming from a distance. [Laughter] So I’ve kept that hard hat up there.

[Assistant] That’s pretty good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you said here, Skylab, what other responsibilities? I think I’ve covered the number of things that I’ve done along the way.

[Assistant] Sure, you covered Skylab pretty good.

[User] Then you’ve got here, after Apollo XIV I became the chief of flight crew integration division. I think I’ve told you about it already the work in there and what the primary responsibilities were of these numbers of teams that I had and these people who did these various different things.

[Assistant] You covered that pretty well, I think. We talked about the Apollo Soyuz.

[User] You said how was it similar and how was it different, and I think we’ve covered all of those things.\n\n We worked, as I’ve talked about, on Skylab’s experiment integration package. I think we’ve already covered that and how I got involved in it. The main reason I got involved with it is because I will take credit for the fact that we did get the training transferred from Marshall to JSC, that 1G training. We already had the simulator training, but had I not pushed that all of that work would have been at Marshall and the roles and functions of the centers at this point in time might be different than they are now. That’s just conjecture.

[Assistant] I think it would have changed a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then you’ve got here, after Apollo XIV I became the chief of flight crew integration division. I think I’ve told you about it already the work in there and what the primary responsibilities were of these numbers of teams that I had and these people who did these various different things.

[Assistant] You covered that pretty well, I think. We talked about the Apollo Soyuz.

[User] You said how was it similar and how was it different, and I think we’ve covered all of those things.\n\n We worked, as I’ve talked about, on Skylab’s experiment integration package. I think we’ve already covered that and how I got involved in it. The main reason I got involved with it is because I will take credit for the fact that we did get the training transferred from Marshall to JSC, that 1G training. We already had the simulator training, but had I not pushed that all of that work would have been at Marshall and the roles and functions of the centers at this point in time might be different than they are now. That’s just conjecture.

[Assistant] I think it would have changed a lot.

[User] They certainly would have gotten a lot of experience. Of course, they did anyhow because Marshall put together the floors with that grid pattern. They put together the handrails. They put together the food lockers. Of course, JSC actually did the food. But they put together the sleeping activities, the trash dump, the water tanks, the storage lockers in the upper area, those sorts of things. They did the environmental system. They did the scrubbing system for the CO2.

[Assistant] The lithium hydroxide cleaner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it flew on a number of missions. In particular, this tail pod thing was this big bulbous thing on the end of the tail, so it flew on a half a dozen missions of that vehicle, because it wasn’t interchangeable with the other vehicles.\n\n Then about that time, Max was getting ready to retire and both his deputy and his assistant director for avionics, all of them were about ready to retire. I think Max was being encouraged by certain people to retire. So they selected two system division chiefs. One was Al [Allen J.] Louviere, who had six divisions that he was responsible for, and I had six divisions that I was responsible for. So they brought us onboard. This was about in ’79.\n\n That worked out quite well because Max and Alec [C.] Bond who was his deputy and Bob Gardnier who was his assistant director could go do their things in terms of planning and in terms of thinking of new technical ideas. You know Max is the one that basically invented Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and Shuttle, the concepts, so he’s patented them. I don’t know if you’ve interviewed Max or not.

[Assistant] We sure have.

[User] So you know that, or did he tell you that he had?

[Assistant] He did. We talked about that.

[User] He’s a very interesting individual to talk to.

[Assistant] Yes, he is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s exactly what I said on my form, I think, that I had experienced a lot of things at NASA and that I was going to explore what new vistas lie out there ahead of me. So I legally, after the fact, and not saying how much before the fact illegally, I secured another job with private industry with a company in Austin, Texas, as a manager in a C3I [Command, Control, Communications, and Intelligence] program.\n\n Do you know what C3I means?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I worked in that program for a year, which had a certain level of classification. After a little over a year, I moved into a higher classification program, black program. Do you know what that means?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I spent a year at Sunnyvale, California. After that year I came back and on that program I was the program director for all engineering on that program. I came back to Austin and became a program manager on another black compartmented program and spent a number of years there. At that point in time, there was some move afoot, and sometimes I had spent TDY like six months at Burbank on some other black programs. Then they wanted to send me as program manager to Nassau, New Hampshire with another company for assignment for a year, and I didn’t want to move back there. So I took a quick retirement from that company and started consulting.\n\n For the next six years I consulted in the aerospace industry, working for Boeing, for Grumman, for NASA, for Lockheed, for McDonnell Douglas, in which I signed contracts of a defined period of time to deliver a defined set of products. When that was through, I was free to go do more work for them if they wanted more work or go take a siesta or go on to another company’s work.\n\n To be very truthful, a lot of these jobs I took so that I could do genealogy on the weekends.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a good reason.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So we can cross-reference that. But I thought, well, since we started talking about the Archives—

[User] [Laughter]

[Assistant] —can you talk a little bit about how you ended up at the Archives?

[User] [Laughter] I ended up in the Archives out of despair. [Laughter]. I had gotten out of the Navy in the beginning of March of 1996, and I had been the information systems officer for Naval District Washington in the Navy Yard. And I thought that was my future, I was going to be doing IT work. Was not really looking forward to that, because I was not really into IT work, but since that was the most recent job experience. So I started throwing job applications out—federal job applications—I knew I wanted to be a Fed. So I started throwing job applications out, and as spring stretched into summer, it—I ran into more and more difficulties. I threw out over 60 job applications. And—

[Assistant] [Interposing] And this was in ’96?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So if there’s any way that’s going to raise a red flag, is that. And so what was found out is that—and this is a story that appeared in the New York Times, that there were secret memoranda between CIA, Air Force, and NARA that allowed their people to go into the open stacks and pull stuff that had been available to the public.

[Assistant] And were there slips?

[User] Well, no. There were no slips.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh.

[User] There was nothing. It was just—the records were just not available.

[Assistant] They were just not there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no. There were no slips.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh.

[User] There was nothing. It was just—the records were just not available.

[Assistant] They were just not there.

[User] They were not available. So there was a little fallout from that.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the successes of that program, and maybe some of the challenges that NDC has faced in these last, I guess, nine years?

[User] [Laughter].

[Assistant] It’s almost been 10 years. Is that hard to believe?

[User] Well actually, President Obama set the deadline to eliminate the backlog by the end of 2013, and we met that. We went ahead and you kept chopping and dicing. I mean, you just keep doing it. We would have murder boards where we would actually take a look at our processes, and if people saw that there were issues, they could bring it up to the senior leadership and say hey, this ain’t working, how about that? We were trying to encourage a lot of critical thinking, that just because we proclaimed it this way doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. And so we were able to get a lot of teamwork out of what was going on, and that allowed us to declare victory at the end of 2013. And so after that, it was more a question of sustainment, where what I mentioned before, we were able to get reviewed accessions in the building and were able to start the NDC process the year following the accessioning. And so that has allowed us to avoid buildup of the backlog. Now that we’re in danger of that again because of the Presidential Libraries business, with all the classified records coming into the Presidential Library, classified coming here. And so that’s going to cause a bit of a—we’re trying to figure that one out still.

[Assistant] And all those records will come to College Park?