[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was. We didn't even take the thing off the pad.\n\n Then, of course, the next real thing in Gemini was Gemini VIII with Armstrong, when his spacecraft spun up on him. I don't know how he ever got out that one, but he did. When he did abort and land in the ocean, here he was out in the middle of the Pacific, and I don't know how they found him, but they did. Actually, right after the launch, I went home since my job was over, and George [E.] Mueller, who was the head of manned space flight, was here and he had gone to the airport to go home on his airplane. All of a sudden he called me up to tell me what was going on and told me to pick him up, so I went back out to the Cape with George.\n\n Let's see, we're getting close.\n\n But as you well know, Gemini was unusually successful, is one thing I would say.

[Assistant] That's a good way to put it.

[User] They did a lot of things that were necessary for Apollo. I don't think it really is appreciated, but a long-duration flight it took care of with the—

[Assistant] Frank Borman and Jim [James A.] Lovell?

[User] Yes, Borman and Lovell. I mean, they had a miserable time, but the rendezvous techniques were developed, the docking techniques, the using a target vehicle for propulsion. I mean, all these things are things that were going to happen in Apollo, and, of course, the extravehicular activity, which was necessary. So Gemini was a very necessary part of getting to the Moon.\n\n I don't know whether anybody ever talked to you about the fact that during the middle of the Gemini program there were thoughts of sending it to the Moon.

[Assistant] We've heard a little bit about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did a lot of things that were necessary for Apollo. I don't think it really is appreciated, but a long-duration flight it took care of with the—

[Assistant] Frank Borman and Jim [James A.] Lovell?

[User] Yes, Borman and Lovell. I mean, they had a miserable time, but the rendezvous techniques were developed, the docking techniques, the using a target vehicle for propulsion. I mean, all these things are things that were going to happen in Apollo, and, of course, the extravehicular activity, which was necessary. So Gemini was a very necessary part of getting to the Moon.\n\n I don't know whether anybody ever talked to you about the fact that during the middle of the Gemini program there were thoughts of sending it to the Moon.

[Assistant] We've heard a little bit about that.

[User] Yes. Well, you aren't going to hear too much more about it. [Laughter] But McDonnell, of course, was proposing that, and so was the Gemini program manager before Chuck Mathews. I believe it was the Canadian engineer.

[Assistant] [James A.] Chamberlin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Borman and Lovell. I mean, they had a miserable time, but the rendezvous techniques were developed, the docking techniques, the using a target vehicle for propulsion. I mean, all these things are things that were going to happen in Apollo, and, of course, the extravehicular activity, which was necessary. So Gemini was a very necessary part of getting to the Moon.\n\n I don't know whether anybody ever talked to you about the fact that during the middle of the Gemini program there were thoughts of sending it to the Moon.

[Assistant] We've heard a little bit about that.

[User] Yes. Well, you aren't going to hear too much more about it. [Laughter] But McDonnell, of course, was proposing that, and so was the Gemini program manager before Chuck Mathews. I believe it was the Canadian engineer.

[Assistant] [James A.] Chamberlin?

[User] Chamberlin, yes. Yes, he was hot after that, too. But it didn't, but there was that thought and it probably would have worked, but it needs a lot of changes from what it was, and it would be kind of miserable conditions flying that damn thing all the way to the Moon and back. I mean, it was bad enough in the Apollo, but that was terrible.\n\n Of course, we flew twelve flights of Gemini in twelve months and that was a smart contrast to what we did in Mercury. We really got with it about that time.

[Assistant] Had really developed the skills and the techniques.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, you aren't going to hear too much more about it. [Laughter] But McDonnell, of course, was proposing that, and so was the Gemini program manager before Chuck Mathews. I believe it was the Canadian engineer.

[Assistant] [James A.] Chamberlin?

[User] Chamberlin, yes. Yes, he was hot after that, too. But it didn't, but there was that thought and it probably would have worked, but it needs a lot of changes from what it was, and it would be kind of miserable conditions flying that damn thing all the way to the Moon and back. I mean, it was bad enough in the Apollo, but that was terrible.\n\n Of course, we flew twelve flights of Gemini in twelve months and that was a smart contrast to what we did in Mercury. We really got with it about that time.

[Assistant] Had really developed the skills and the techniques.

[User] Well, we had a feeling of confidence in the hardware, which McDonnell gave you. They were a good contractor. On the last flight, though, I got the pleasure of going out to the recovery ship which was on the carrier, and made a carrier landing and then a carrier takeoff afterwards.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chamberlin, yes. Yes, he was hot after that, too. But it didn't, but there was that thought and it probably would have worked, but it needs a lot of changes from what it was, and it would be kind of miserable conditions flying that damn thing all the way to the Moon and back. I mean, it was bad enough in the Apollo, but that was terrible.\n\n Of course, we flew twelve flights of Gemini in twelve months and that was a smart contrast to what we did in Mercury. We really got with it about that time.

[Assistant] Had really developed the skills and the techniques.

[User] Well, we had a feeling of confidence in the hardware, which McDonnell gave you. They were a good contractor. On the last flight, though, I got the pleasure of going out to the recovery ship which was on the carrier, and made a carrier landing and then a carrier takeoff afterwards.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.

[User] What amazed me was that during the night we ran into some big waves, and I mean big waves, and that whole damn carrier would shake, and, hell, that thing's tons, so I wouldn't think it would bother it, but it did.

[Assistant] What an experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had a feeling of confidence in the hardware, which McDonnell gave you. They were a good contractor. On the last flight, though, I got the pleasure of going out to the recovery ship which was on the carrier, and made a carrier landing and then a carrier takeoff afterwards.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.

[User] What amazed me was that during the night we ran into some big waves, and I mean big waves, and that whole damn carrier would shake, and, hell, that thing's tons, so I wouldn't think it would bother it, but it did.

[Assistant] What an experience.

[User] Yes. It was really surprising. I think that was just a bonus for the success of the Gemini program. Mueller and I were the only ones that went out, and I certainly enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Well, if we could pause here for a moment. [Tape changed.]\n\n You mentioned that toward the end of Gemini that you had then been going to transfer into—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you see, fundamentally McDonnell, not McDonnell, but North American was the designer and developer of the X-15, and that was a very forward-looking piece of equipment, and so it came to a certain amount of confidence. Stormy—what was his last name? [Harrison A.] Storms, I guess—was real talented, but he didn't stay with it too long. I can't remember how long. He was president at one time, wasn't he?

[Assistant] I believe so.

[User] I think he was. But he didn't stay there that long. I never had a bad feeling about North American, although I had a very good feeling about McDonnell, because I'd been working with them so much, and particularly Yardley. But outside of Stormy, there wasn't anybody like Yardley. I mean, nobody stood out like that, and it would be unusual if there were. Stormy was good, but I don't know what happened. Do you know what happened to him?

[Assistant] I think after the fire, I think is when he moved on.

[User] No, I don't think he lasted that long.

[Assistant] I think that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he was. But he didn't stay there that long. I never had a bad feeling about North American, although I had a very good feeling about McDonnell, because I'd been working with them so much, and particularly Yardley. But outside of Stormy, there wasn't anybody like Yardley. I mean, nobody stood out like that, and it would be unusual if there were. Stormy was good, but I don't know what happened. Do you know what happened to him?

[Assistant] I think after the fire, I think is when he moved on.

[User] No, I don't think he lasted that long.

[Assistant] I think that's right.

[User] He was?

[Assistant] Yes, because North American didn't want him to leave, but other people at NASA felt that it might be more appropriate that he did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think he lasted that long.

[Assistant] I think that's right.

[User] He was?

[Assistant] Yes, because North American didn't want him to leave, but other people at NASA felt that it might be more appropriate that he did.

[User] Well, the president was not Stormy then, it was a guy that I was most—well, I shouldn't—turn the thing off. It's not appropriate to talk about.

[Assistant] Okay. Not a problem.\n\n Were you very familiar with the differences between the Block I and then the Block II spacecraft on Apollo? You mentioned that you had been involved with the investigation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. One point I might make is that [Joseph F.] Shea was not an airplane man, he was a computer man, and then I guess he had something to do with missiles, but there's a difference flying manned airplanes and some of these other kind of equipment. So his experience, he was an extremely talented engineer, but he lacked a certain sense of knowing about manned flight. I think Rocco [Petrone] initially was the same problem, because they never had any—I mean, Kraft and I both came out of the flight research, flying airplanes and not exactly safe airplanes while we were at it, either. However, nobody will ever really know and don't how I can—I think I better not say any more about that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's perfectly fine.

[User] Some people might get excited about it.

[Assistant] You moved into the design engineering directorate.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us what your duties and roles were in that, what you were responsible for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some people might get excited about it.

[Assistant] You moved into the design engineering directorate.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us what your duties and roles were in that, what you were responsible for?

[User] Say that again.

[Assistant] Can you tell us when you were in the design engineering directorate, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us what your duties and roles were in that, what you were responsible for?

[User] Say that again.

[Assistant] Can you tell us when you were in the design engineering directorate, what did you do?

[User] Well, it was responsible for designing KSC, period, everything, but that included all the launch complexes, plus all the equipment in them, plus all the checkout gear to check out both vehicles. We were successful in doing that job for the spacecraft end of the deal, but Marshall, in its usual fashion, never gave up all its authority, and still hangs on to some of it.\n\n But it was a pretty neat job, actually. I was there, I don't know, about three or four years, but it was right through the critical part of the Apollo, from the fire on to the end of the Apollo program. I wasn't there for Skylab. I probably was in future programs by the time Skylab came along, and, of course, the Shuttle I was involved in as a project manager.

[Assistant] While you were in the design directorate, were you involved at all with the missions themselves, or did you help in any of those when—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the only real involvement is that all the senior staff participated in what was called the launch readiness reviews. So I was always involved in those, but I think when I became involved in the Shuttle I didn't spend too much time on that. I was busy enough taking care of the Shuttle, so I didn't. Of course, the design reviews, I mean, the launch reviews were also considering of the ground equipment, so I was there for the fact that they were covering my equipment, too. But as far as the flight hardware, I didn't really have much to do with it except the mate between that and the ground equipment.\n\n You know, I was amazed, though, when after I'd been a designer and it came to the first Saturn V launch, and I stood there and watched those massive swing arms move, but not only move, but the instant of liftoff. I mean, while liftoff was going on, and, boy, I'm telling you, that gave me as big a shudder as Shepard's flight. I mean, that really thrilled you, because, boy, that could have ruined the whole day. I think there were eleven of them, and, boy, those things were huge. They still are, or what's there. But they worked. I had my moments.

[Assistant] Must have been quite remarkable.

[User] Yes. People tend to think only of the flight hardware, but I soon learned that those kids and boys were doing a big job.

[Assistant] Certainly everything on the ground and all the people are required to make the missions happen.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned the first Saturn V launch. Was this an unmanned one or was this the Apollo 8 launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. People tend to think only of the flight hardware, but I soon learned that those kids and boys were doing a big job.

[Assistant] Certainly everything on the ground and all the people are required to make the missions happen.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned the first Saturn V launch. Was this an unmanned one or was this the Apollo 8 launch?

[User] No, this was the unmanned one before Apollo 8. But even Apollo 8, though, you just couldn't believe that they were going to do that. I didn't have any input into doing it or not doing it, except wanting to get on with it, but, boy, I'm telling you that was a huge step. I wonder how the three astronauts really—they must have gone into that with a certain amount of destiny in their thinking, because the odds were greatly unfavorable. I mean, hell, how in the world could we expect to do that? But we did.

[Assistant] Luckily it was quite a success.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned the first Saturn V launch. Was this an unmanned one or was this the Apollo 8 launch?

[User] No, this was the unmanned one before Apollo 8. But even Apollo 8, though, you just couldn't believe that they were going to do that. I didn't have any input into doing it or not doing it, except wanting to get on with it, but, boy, I'm telling you that was a huge step. I wonder how the three astronauts really—they must have gone into that with a certain amount of destiny in their thinking, because the odds were greatly unfavorable. I mean, hell, how in the world could we expect to do that? But we did.

[Assistant] Luckily it was quite a success.

[User] Oh, that was a tremendous success. You know it changed the whole environmental attitude of the world when they saw that picture of the Earth. I mean, it did more than to advance the environmentalism than anything that ever happened.

[Assistant] Certainly gives you a whole new perspective.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, this was the unmanned one before Apollo 8. But even Apollo 8, though, you just couldn't believe that they were going to do that. I didn't have any input into doing it or not doing it, except wanting to get on with it, but, boy, I'm telling you that was a huge step. I wonder how the three astronauts really—they must have gone into that with a certain amount of destiny in their thinking, because the odds were greatly unfavorable. I mean, hell, how in the world could we expect to do that? But we did.

[Assistant] Luckily it was quite a success.

[User] Oh, that was a tremendous success. You know it changed the whole environmental attitude of the world when they saw that picture of the Earth. I mean, it did more than to advance the environmentalism than anything that ever happened.

[Assistant] Certainly gives you a whole new perspective.

[User] Oh, it did that.

[Assistant] Talking about the missions, even though you weren't directly involved with them, Apollo 8, of course, was a very big step and then Apollo 11 was, of course, the landing. Did you watch that one and then do you recall where you were when they landed on the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that was a tremendous success. You know it changed the whole environmental attitude of the world when they saw that picture of the Earth. I mean, it did more than to advance the environmentalism than anything that ever happened.

[Assistant] Certainly gives you a whole new perspective.

[User] Oh, it did that.

[Assistant] Talking about the missions, even though you weren't directly involved with them, Apollo 8, of course, was a very big step and then Apollo 11 was, of course, the landing. Did you watch that one and then do you recall where you were when they landed on the Moon?

[User] Oh, well, I was—when you see the next launch, you'll see a plexiglass cage over behind the launch director. That's where I was. That's where almost, well, all the senior staff that weren't down on the floor were located in case a problem came up. Then I came home and watched it on TV, of course, and stayed up until the middle of the night. In fact, what time did it land? I've forgotten.

[Assistant] It was pretty close to the middle of the night, I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it did that.

[Assistant] Talking about the missions, even though you weren't directly involved with them, Apollo 8, of course, was a very big step and then Apollo 11 was, of course, the landing. Did you watch that one and then do you recall where you were when they landed on the Moon?

[User] Oh, well, I was—when you see the next launch, you'll see a plexiglass cage over behind the launch director. That's where I was. That's where almost, well, all the senior staff that weren't down on the floor were located in case a problem came up. Then I came home and watched it on TV, of course, and stayed up until the middle of the night. In fact, what time did it land? I've forgotten.

[Assistant] It was pretty close to the middle of the night, I think.

[User] It was pretty late, I remember that. But anyway, that's my normal procedure, anyway, even when I was involved, because once it lifted off, there wasn't a damn thing I could do, and they knew where to get me if they had to.

[Assistant] That's right. Must have been good to see it all come together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I told you earlier, Kraft bailed me out quite often, but I'd sit here, I never was comfortable until the thing landed again, because something could go wrong and it could be something we did and usually was. You know, that's where Kraft did me a big favor in fixing them.\n\n We'd better get on. We're getting close.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Well, we've already gone over that.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] [Referring to notes] Hey, we're on the last page. On the Shuttle program, KSC participated more intensely in the design of the spacecraft than it ever had before. I mean, it was heavily involved, not the spacecraft, the Shuttle, and it was there mainly to give operational aspects of design. I had developed a team from throughout the center of probably twenty to thirty people, specialists in each area that would go out to design reviews, and then when they got around to start cutting hardware, that group would go.\n\n Bob Thompson and I were old friends from Mercury, all the way back to Mercury, and we understood each other. That's where I got him to assign the responsibility for all the ground equipment to KSC to design and build, which was a big boost to KSC. KSC sort of felt like an orphan child and that's the way ABMA treated them. But we participated in the selection of the Shuttle contractor very heavily with, I guess, fifteen people that were out at Houston for almost—not almost, a month, at least, at Houston while that review was going on, and had some very strong comments about the design so that we were really involved in that program.\n\n As I said, I don't know if I'm bringing it up again, but I was disappointed in McDonnell and Yardley not getting that contract, but it later turned out that it wasn't that bad. But you had something that you knew and trusted that you all of a sudden had to give up. Besides, Yardley was really the father of the Shuttle in the configuration as it ended up. I still don't know what he did.

[Assistant] The Shuttle was so different from the earlier programs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I decided maybe I'd better get out of here. Really it was because I wasn't going to be there when they flew, because that was several years off and I left it in competent hands. Andy Pickett was my deputy and then Bob—oh, boy. He's the old unmanned operations guy. One from Goddard. Bob. He'll kill me for not remembering his name. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We'll look it up in the records and we'll slip it in the transcript so that—

[User] You slip it in so they won't know who it is?

[Assistant] Well, we'll put it in the transcript. We'll make sure his name gets in there.

[User] I know him as well as I know anybody. You get old, you have these lapses. I'm surprised I remembered as many as I have.

[Assistant] Oh, I have them, too. You're doing very well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You slip it in so they won't know who it is?

[Assistant] Well, we'll put it in the transcript. We'll make sure his name gets in there.

[User] I know him as well as I know anybody. You get old, you have these lapses. I'm surprised I remembered as many as I have.

[Assistant] Oh, I have them, too. You're doing very well.

[User] I think I'm about done, at least from—if you want to ask some questions.

[Assistant] Well, did you do any other work after retiring, or did you just retire and relax?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Anyway, in building a house I'd bought all the hardware, the door knobs and all the locks, and I had them in the back of my truck. I came out that night and they were all gone. I found out the brother of the contractor had taken them. I mean, that's the kind they were, so I just didn't enjoy it. I mean, after working with NACA and NASA, those are different people.

[Assistant] Very different. Very different.

[User] I never saw anybody with that attitude in that time frame.

[Assistant] Well, if there had been anyone like that, the space program wouldn't have been the success it was.

[User] Well, I just don't think there were. I think they were motivated to be better than that. Even the mechanics and that type of people, they were real high-grade people.

[Assistant] Certainly had a good goal to be shooting for, and people really wanted to make it happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never saw anybody with that attitude in that time frame.

[Assistant] Well, if there had been anyone like that, the space program wouldn't have been the success it was.

[User] Well, I just don't think there were. I think they were motivated to be better than that. Even the mechanics and that type of people, they were real high-grade people.

[Assistant] Certainly had a good goal to be shooting for, and people really wanted to make it happen.

[User] Well, they were proud of what they were doing.

[Assistant] Definitely something to be very proud of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were proud of what they were doing.

[Assistant] Definitely something to be very proud of.

[User] But you know when you're flying airplanes, you don't goof off like that either.

[Assistant] No.

[User] Because your life's at stake.

[Assistant] A couple just final questions. Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you consider your most challenging moment or the biggest challenge that you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But you know when you're flying airplanes, you don't goof off like that either.

[Assistant] No.

[User] Because your life's at stake.

[Assistant] A couple just final questions. Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you consider your most challenging moment or the biggest challenge that you had?

[User] Most challenging moment. It can't be one, but one of them, of course, was the Gemini turnaround and launch in 76. The Shuttle program was a big challenge, and then, of course, lunar landing, they all three were tremendous challenges.

[Assistant] They certainly were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It sure did. It's an awful good school.

[Assistant] It certainly is.

[User] It's different than the other technical schools in that this was fundamentally an undergraduate school, whereas MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] is basically a graduate school and so is Cal Tech [California Institute of Technology]. They do have undergraduates, but I don't think they're as good as Rensselaer, and there are a lot of good undergraduate engineering schools. I had a hard time making up my mind about [University of] Michigan and Purdue [University] and Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology]. My dad finally convinced me to go to Rensselaer because a former resident in our hometown was from there and he happened to run into him and he talked him into it. I sure was never against that decision.

[Assistant] I guess you have to have some factor that outweighs all the others.

[User] Well, he was the one that was going to pay the bill, so I couldn't argue with him. Back in those days, I think when I first went to Rensselaer it was 200 dollars a semester. Now, boy, it's something like 10 or 12,000. I don't know, maybe it's even higher. Terrible.

[Assistant] It's pretty expensive now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's different than the other technical schools in that this was fundamentally an undergraduate school, whereas MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] is basically a graduate school and so is Cal Tech [California Institute of Technology]. They do have undergraduates, but I don't think they're as good as Rensselaer, and there are a lot of good undergraduate engineering schools. I had a hard time making up my mind about [University of] Michigan and Purdue [University] and Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology]. My dad finally convinced me to go to Rensselaer because a former resident in our hometown was from there and he happened to run into him and he talked him into it. I sure was never against that decision.

[Assistant] I guess you have to have some factor that outweighs all the others.

[User] Well, he was the one that was going to pay the bill, so I couldn't argue with him. Back in those days, I think when I first went to Rensselaer it was 200 dollars a semester. Now, boy, it's something like 10 or 12,000. I don't know, maybe it's even higher. Terrible.

[Assistant] It's pretty expensive now.

[User] The second year they raised it to 400.

[Assistant] You've certainly seen quite a few changes in everything from finances to technology over your career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The second year they raised it to 400.

[Assistant] You've certainly seen quite a few changes in everything from finances to technology over your career.

[User] Oh, yes. When I was in high school, my friends were all taking pilot training in [Piper] Cubs, if you know what a Cub is. Most of them were soloing in a matter of four or five hours, and most of them didn't do anything about it. So I never got around to it, mainly because I thought it was too damned expensive, because it was expensive even back then, particularly in light of what the economy was then. In the middle thirties things weren't running too hot.

[Assistant] Certainly not.

[User] I was surprised my dad could send me away to school, but he just the year before got the job as county treasurer, which gave him an income. Before that he had three department stores, which the Depression took care of all three of them, one at a time. So things were a little rough, but could have been a lot worse.

[Assistant] Certainly could have. It sounds like it worked out pretty well in the long run.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. When I was in high school, my friends were all taking pilot training in [Piper] Cubs, if you know what a Cub is. Most of them were soloing in a matter of four or five hours, and most of them didn't do anything about it. So I never got around to it, mainly because I thought it was too damned expensive, because it was expensive even back then, particularly in light of what the economy was then. In the middle thirties things weren't running too hot.

[Assistant] Certainly not.

[User] I was surprised my dad could send me away to school, but he just the year before got the job as county treasurer, which gave him an income. Before that he had three department stores, which the Depression took care of all three of them, one at a time. So things were a little rough, but could have been a lot worse.

[Assistant] Certainly could have. It sounds like it worked out pretty well in the long run.

[User] It did for me.

[Assistant] Again, looking at your career with NASA, is there any one point or a couple points that you feel you made your greatest contribution to the program or your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did for me.

[Assistant] Again, looking at your career with NASA, is there any one point or a couple points that you feel you made your greatest contribution to the program or your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Well, the latest would be the Shuttle program. I made a fairly significant contribution mostly in the design of the Shuttle and design of the ground system to go with it. Yes, we made a very big contribution for that, and participated pretty well. In all the previous programs, KSC's input was sort of incidental, but ours became, particularly with Thompson's appreciation and recognition, involved us more heavily and more rigidly than before. So that we did make a very significant impression. But of course, all the programs. Gemini, I think, was more, I was more responsible than Mercury or Apollo. More self-satisfying. I think we accomplished an awful lot.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] But the longer the space program went on, the more diluted it got, as far as people were concerned. It started out there weren't very many.

[Assistant] The program certainly grew a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the latest would be the Shuttle program. I made a fairly significant contribution mostly in the design of the Shuttle and design of the ground system to go with it. Yes, we made a very big contribution for that, and participated pretty well. In all the previous programs, KSC's input was sort of incidental, but ours became, particularly with Thompson's appreciation and recognition, involved us more heavily and more rigidly than before. So that we did make a very significant impression. But of course, all the programs. Gemini, I think, was more, I was more responsible than Mercury or Apollo. More self-satisfying. I think we accomplished an awful lot.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] But the longer the space program went on, the more diluted it got, as far as people were concerned. It started out there weren't very many.

[Assistant] The program certainly grew a lot.

[User] Yes. I can't remember how many was in Space Task Group. I remember there were only about twenty-five in this organization down here, and it grew to about five hundred before it went into KSC. Some of that might have been more than necessary.

[Assistant] But you were able to accomplish the goal and bring it all together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the longer the space program went on, the more diluted it got, as far as people were concerned. It started out there weren't very many.

[Assistant] The program certainly grew a lot.

[User] Yes. I can't remember how many was in Space Task Group. I remember there were only about twenty-five in this organization down here, and it grew to about five hundred before it went into KSC. Some of that might have been more than necessary.

[Assistant] But you were able to accomplish the goal and bring it all together.

[User] Yes, I think we did. Did you get a chance to answer any of your questions?

[Assistant]
I got most of mine covered. I'd like to ask Kevin real quickly if he has any to tie things off.

I just had a couple. First, it's more sort of a general question. When you first got down here, you know, in the first few weeks, what was the atmosphere like? What was it like being down here, how were things being run, and what were the big tasks you had to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Your turn.

[Assistant] Well, I've pretty much got mine covered.

[User] You got any more?

[Assistant] We had heard stories about things like them bringing the first Mercury capsules out to the pads in the back of a pickup truck on top of plywood and mattresses and just having little roped-off areas of the hangar, those kinds of—

[User] That would have had to have been Big Joe, if it was. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, but I don't think we had any carrier vehicle. I really don't remember, but as I said, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Assistant] Just pulling things all together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You got any more?

[Assistant] We had heard stories about things like them bringing the first Mercury capsules out to the pads in the back of a pickup truck on top of plywood and mattresses and just having little roped-off areas of the hangar, those kinds of—

[User] That would have had to have been Big Joe, if it was. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, but I don't think we had any carrier vehicle. I really don't remember, but as I said, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Assistant] Just pulling things all together.

[User] We had to do things rather differently. I imagine the people on the ridge got a kick out of that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes, that seems to be what they said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would have had to have been Big Joe, if it was. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, but I don't think we had any carrier vehicle. I really don't remember, but as I said, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Assistant] Just pulling things all together.

[User] We had to do things rather differently. I imagine the people on the ridge got a kick out of that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes, that seems to be what they said.

[User] Get it done, that's all.

[Assistant] Right. That's why I was wondering how primitive were the facilities to get the technical job done here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to do things rather differently. I imagine the people on the ridge got a kick out of that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes, that seems to be what they said.

[User] Get it done, that's all.

[Assistant] Right. That's why I was wondering how primitive were the facilities to get the technical job done here.

[User] Well, when we first came with the real piece of hardware—Bob Gray is the guy I was trying to think of in charge of the unmanned. He used Hangar S for his unmanned launches and he had what was called a white room, which was about half as big as this house, where he did all his work in. Mel Gough kicked them all out of the hangar and let us in. I don't think that was right. I don't think Bob ever forgave him. We took over the hangar. I don't even know where he ended up.\n\n But the hangar was our total—it had offices on each side built into the hangar, but shortly after that they built a lean-to sheetmetal building on the north side of that building. That was our first change. Then later they built a building out front for engineering offices. The further I got away from it, the further I got away from the intimacy of the work.\n\n You keep losing track in the middle of a—go on, your turn.

[Assistant] In terms of the other facilities at KSC that they were building really for the Apollo program, things like the VAB [Vehicle Assembly Building], did you have anything to do with those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I called it chicken feed. [Laughter] But they quit talking, they quit asking, but it was truthful. I mean, it was at least a hundred-to-one ratio between what I was asking and what they were asking. But they sure gave me the going-over.\n\n I'm trying to think of the head of the manned space flight subcommittee. He's from Texas. He's dead now, but he was one of our best supporters. His nephew was a priest at our church, and now I can't remember his name, but anyway, he was one on our side, and fortunately he was the chairman of the subcommittee.

[Assistant] Olin [E.] Teague?

[User] Teague. Yes. He was a great guy, particularly when he took care of us. But all through the Mercury and Gemini program he—I don't know when he resigned. I think it was probably in the Gemini program somewhere. I don't think he was in the Apollo. I really don't know. I have no way of knowing.

[Assistant]
We can certainly look up the dates on that.

Well, that was all the questions I had, so thank you.

[User] Okay. You'd better get going. Oh, it's canceled [referring to the STS-99 launch].

[Assistant] Yes. But we certainly want to thank you very much for sharing your experiences with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hope so. See grandkids, travel some.

[Assistant] And enjoy yourself.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about over these last two sessions that you wanted to mention that we just didn’t get around to?

[User] I guess I would have to emphasize one last time I think I have some scars that could have been prevented if management had been a little more into people management. I’d like to see JSC and the future space program do a little bit more about managing people. I think there’s been some efforts there, but I think they get gobbled up by the next technical problem you’ve got to wrestle with. I think there should be some balancing of selecting people in the management chain based on their people management and mentoring skills versus strictly their technical skills. If I could leave one message for JSC, that’s probably what I would talk about.

[Assistant] Okay. All right. Well, we thank you for joining us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Treasury, Treasury records and then the judicial cluster was the courts, the Supreme Court and Justice Department. I started actually in fiscal records. I was working with Terry Matchette, who was at that time an archives technician working in Coast Guard. And so my first records were actually those Coast Guard records that we've talked about so often. And my my first letter ever was a reference report. And I had, I had no idea of the significance of being able to sign something, but Terry was so happy I got to sign something as an intern, because at that time, you know, nobody got to sign their own letters.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Yeah, so. My first letter I ever did was a reference report on a lighthouse. And she walked me through the whole thing and then I got to sign it.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah, wow. That was a long time ago.

[Assistant] Yeah, boy things have changed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so. My first letter I ever did was a reference report on a lighthouse. And she walked me through the whole thing and then I got to sign it.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah, wow. That was a long time ago.

[Assistant] Yeah, boy things have changed.

[User] 10-E-2.

[Assistant] So I was going to ask you about training, but that was done during your internship.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, wow. That was a long time ago.

[Assistant] Yeah, boy things have changed.

[User] 10-E-2.

[Assistant] So I was going to ask you about training, but that was done during your internship.

[User] Well, I was in this and when I came back in ’80, I was in the CIDS program, so I did the two-year, Career Intern Development System training that was in place at that time. Yeah.

[Assistant] So was that pretty much the same as it later came to be? Was it rotations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And computers, right? Yeah, we got a, there was a technology assessment staff at that time, a guy named Bill Holmes had come from Social Security or something. And the Archivist had created this kind of think tank, he thought, and Roger (unintelligible) was part of that. And they had purchased several of these LANs, local area networks that were produced by Radio Shack. And it was a CPU (shrugs negatively) and had 8-inch disks. I mean, it was … and then you had these terminals that came off of it. So you could have, we had, in the outer office, you had one big unit and then two side terminals that people could use, and they could then store their stuff on this CPU. And we also had this little laptop. And I could take the little laptop into the stack and let them enter the stuff, because we didn’t want to bring the records out.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so they would go in the stack and enter all this information and come back and then Holmes had written me this little dump program, so I could dump the stuff into the computer, and then we could produce a roll list and box labels, actually.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] So those little, little pin-fed box labels that are on some of those rolls, that came from that RadioShack computer.

[Assistant] Who knew it was going to be 30 years later--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they would go in the stack and enter all this information and come back and then Holmes had written me this little dump program, so I could dump the stuff into the computer, and then we could produce a roll list and box labels, actually.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] So those little, little pin-fed box labels that are on some of those rolls, that came from that RadioShack computer.

[Assistant] Who knew it was going to be 30 years later--

[User] 30 years later, they’d still be there.

[Assistant] And still our finding aid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So those little, little pin-fed box labels that are on some of those rolls, that came from that RadioShack computer.

[Assistant] Who knew it was going to be 30 years later--

[User] 30 years later, they’d still be there.

[Assistant] And still our finding aid.

[User] That's right. You got it. Yeah.

[Assistant]
And actually, probably the most useful way of creating finding aids that we have is those. OK, well, it's better than a box list.

Exactly--what's better than a box list? Knowing what's in the box is half the battle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I did a paper, I did a presentation for an SAA conference for the management roundtable. And it was about the corporate culture of different institutions, archival institutions; it was actually kind of a fun panel. And I did ours. And what I discovered when I went through this exercise that you do to figure out what the culture is like, that we were about substance. We were about being right. And not about form. Pretty wasn't as important as right. And so that, that, I think, is pretty much who we were. It was, it was a really--everybody was here for the same purpose, to preserve and make available the records. And I mean that it was a really kind of collegial, collegial place.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah. So I was going to ask you about the typical day, but it sounds like you just described that.

[User] Well, I did work in there. (Both laugh)

[Assistant] I had a question about what was significant about the records you worked with. But, Supreme Court, that's kind of obvious. And fiscal and judicial, unless there's anything else you'd like to say about that.

[User] The significance of the records.

[Assistant] Yeah. Or how interest and demand might have changed over time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The significance of the records.

[Assistant] Yeah. Or how interest and demand might have changed over time.

[User] Well. The Treasury records, the early Treasury records, are kind of expansive, in that they document all the government. I mean, everything that the government did is documented in financial records. And so the Treasury cluster included at that time, RG 217, the what was then called the General Accounting Office. It’s now Auditors of the Treasury. But that record group was a go-to place for finding all sorts of information about the way the government operated, from the transportation accounts of the individual members of Congress to horse claims, how many horses did some farmer give to the Union Army? You know. I mean, there was, there was so much information there about everything, that, I guess, that was the most challenging body of material and probably one of the richest sources that has never been mined because it's so bloody difficult to use.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But there's just an incredible amount of information in there. Those records are so significant. I don't know. We've never been able to actually get a good handle on them because of the vagaries of time. I think finding aids for some very complicated series were never accessioned or were never created. I mean, maybe they were all two-legged finding aids, that’s certainly a possibility. But those--underutilized because they're so difficult but so significant, some of the oldest records we have in this institution.

[Assistant] You weren't always in reference, didn’t you move out, do some other work as well before you went into management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes! Because I hired you. (Laughter from both)

[Assistant] That's right. You did.

[User] I did. I hired some really cool people, actually. Deb Wall. She was Deb Steidel at the time. I hired, you know, really important people.

[Assistant] So that was about ’88, ’89?

[User] That was ’86, ’87.

[Assistant]
Is that right, OK. Yeah. And then I, then I was--Tom Brown was the head of the administrative staff at that time. Then I was his deputy, and we hired Mary Rephlo to take over staff development. And then I got the head of, I got Tom's job when he went to work in what became Electronic.

Was that NNB or something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I hired some really cool people, actually. Deb Wall. She was Deb Steidel at the time. I hired, you know, really important people.

[Assistant] So that was about ’88, ’89?

[User] That was ’86, ’87.

[Assistant]
Is that right, OK. Yeah. And then I, then I was--Tom Brown was the head of the administrative staff at that time. Then I was his deputy, and we hired Mary Rephlo to take over staff development. And then I got the head of, I got Tom's job when he went to work in what became Electronic.

Was that NNB or something like that?

[User] Yeah, it was. NNB.

[Assistant] OK, um, I guess we'll move into challenges and issues you've encountered in your career,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they only did the cards.

[Assistant] No.

[User] Yeah. That's form over over substance. That's what that is.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, that’s disappointing.

[User] And that happened. And I think, I think in terms of morale and that professional camaraderie that I mentioned earlier, something happened in there that just, it changed, it changed.

[Assistant] Were there any significant controversies that we haven't talked about? I was going to ask you, I guess, when this assembly was first created. Were you around for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That's form over over substance. That's what that is.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, that’s disappointing.

[User] And that happened. And I think, I think in terms of morale and that professional camaraderie that I mentioned earlier, something happened in there that just, it changed, it changed.

[Assistant] Were there any significant controversies that we haven't talked about? I was going to ask you, I guess, when this assembly was first created. Were you around for that?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. I was not part of the cabal. I wasn't high enough in the, I was just a CIDS trainee at the time, but I attended that first organizational meeting at the auditorium on the sixth floor.

[Assistant] On a Saturday, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On a Saturday, we all came in on a Saturday. What had happened was that there was a new administrator at GSA, Admiral Freeman, and Admiral Freeman came in and wanted to cut costs. And he looked at the Archives and he said, “We have all these facilities out in the regions out all over the country, but they don't have many records. All the records are here in Washington. Why don't we ship some of them out? And he proposed creating subject centers, so World War One would be in Fort Worth or--you know, that was his proposal. And that would save a ton of money because rent was cheaper out in the hinterlands and staffing was cheaper out in the hinterlands, and, you know, NARS could finally, you know, be part of the cost cutting effort. And the hue and cry from the research community and from the professional community was huge, just huge. The destruction of provenance, just taking record groups apart was beyond anybody's comprehension. And so the staff actually became very active, and the Assembly became our voice at the time. And so I was a member right away. I helped out on the newsletter, The New Archivist. I helped type it and write articles for it. I wrote a column for a number of years called, “Did You Know?” Just stuff that people might not have been aware of, because we didn't have email and it was, you know, no Internet at the time. And I never actually held office in the Assembly. I'm not sure why, but the timing was just never right. They did ask me several times to do several different things. And I just, the timing wasn't right.

[Assistant] So ultimately, ultimately, what happened to the admiral?

[User] Oh, he left.

[Assistant] He left.

[User] Yes. The Post did a nice little piece about him and it said that he had dropped anchor in the Federal Triangle, and we had then gone after him with our torpedoes (both laugh) And he didn't like it much. So he left.

[Assistant] And that was the beginning of independence, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, he left.

[Assistant] He left.

[User] Yes. The Post did a nice little piece about him and it said that he had dropped anchor in the Federal Triangle, and we had then gone after him with our torpedoes (both laugh) And he didn't like it much. So he left.

[Assistant] And that was the beginning of independence, right?

[User] Yes, that was the beginning of independence. And at the same time that the Assembly was doing that, Bob Warner, who was the new Archivist of the United States, was busily trying to put together support for an independent National Archives, which occurred in 1985. The Assembly was part of that whole effort, always was. And Bob Warner credited the administrators of General Services for their help in gaining independence, because he said if they hadn't been so stupid, we'd probably still be part of GSA. Admiral Freeman was followed by Gerald Carmen, who is, was a used tire salesman from New Hampshire. And Adrienne Thomas decided, recommended that we make some T-shirts with the state motto of New Hampshire, which was “Live Free or Die” and put “National Archives” under it. (both laugh) We had T-shirts made, the Assembly did, had the T-shirts made. But anyway, Carmen was remembered most because he said, he came to to talk to the staff here, and he said to us that we were the jewel in the crown of the General Services Administration, and that every time he walked in the building, it made him tingle.

[Assistant] Oh, and so that's the source of the quote.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The Post did a nice little piece about him and it said that he had dropped anchor in the Federal Triangle, and we had then gone after him with our torpedoes (both laugh) And he didn't like it much. So he left.

[Assistant] And that was the beginning of independence, right?

[User] Yes, that was the beginning of independence. And at the same time that the Assembly was doing that, Bob Warner, who was the new Archivist of the United States, was busily trying to put together support for an independent National Archives, which occurred in 1985. The Assembly was part of that whole effort, always was. And Bob Warner credited the administrators of General Services for their help in gaining independence, because he said if they hadn't been so stupid, we'd probably still be part of GSA. Admiral Freeman was followed by Gerald Carmen, who is, was a used tire salesman from New Hampshire. And Adrienne Thomas decided, recommended that we make some T-shirts with the state motto of New Hampshire, which was “Live Free or Die” and put “National Archives” under it. (both laugh) We had T-shirts made, the Assembly did, had the T-shirts made. But anyway, Carmen was remembered most because he said, he came to to talk to the staff here, and he said to us that we were the jewel in the crown of the General Services Administration, and that every time he walked in the building, it made him tingle.

[Assistant] Oh, and so that's the source of the quote.

[User] NARS makes me tingle.

[Assistant] Now we know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was the beginning of independence. And at the same time that the Assembly was doing that, Bob Warner, who was the new Archivist of the United States, was busily trying to put together support for an independent National Archives, which occurred in 1985. The Assembly was part of that whole effort, always was. And Bob Warner credited the administrators of General Services for their help in gaining independence, because he said if they hadn't been so stupid, we'd probably still be part of GSA. Admiral Freeman was followed by Gerald Carmen, who is, was a used tire salesman from New Hampshire. And Adrienne Thomas decided, recommended that we make some T-shirts with the state motto of New Hampshire, which was “Live Free or Die” and put “National Archives” under it. (both laugh) We had T-shirts made, the Assembly did, had the T-shirts made. But anyway, Carmen was remembered most because he said, he came to to talk to the staff here, and he said to us that we were the jewel in the crown of the General Services Administration, and that every time he walked in the building, it made him tingle.

[Assistant] Oh, and so that's the source of the quote.

[User] NARS makes me tingle.

[Assistant] Now we know.

[User] Gerald Carmen.

[Assistant] It is revealed. (Cindi laugh Well, let's talk about some of the things you brought. And I also had a question about Mary Walton Livingston and her role in the resignation of Nixon. Did she, didn’t she find something? A document that was dated ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gerald Carmen.

[Assistant] It is revealed. (Cindi laugh Well, let's talk about some of the things you brought. And I also had a question about Mary Walton Livingston and her role in the resignation of Nixon. Did she, didn’t she find something? A document that was dated ...

[User] Richard Nixon had a collection of vice presidential papers, and he was going to donate them at some point to the Eisenhower Library, or to his own library had he been elected. And they were going to change the law about whether or not he could take a tax writeoff for the donation. And so he asked the then-administrator to backdate the deed of gift so that it would fall under the previous rule, and he'd be able to take the tax writeoff, and they would be donated to the Eisenhower rather than holding on to them for the Nixon Library. And Mrs. Livingston worked in Presidential Libraries at the time. And she refused to do it. And so that was the big flap about Mary Walton. She, she was just too honorable. She wasn’t going to do it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so it became known that he had attempted to, to bend the rules.

[Assistant] I see, OK, interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Richard Nixon had a collection of vice presidential papers, and he was going to donate them at some point to the Eisenhower Library, or to his own library had he been elected. And they were going to change the law about whether or not he could take a tax writeoff for the donation. And so he asked the then-administrator to backdate the deed of gift so that it would fall under the previous rule, and he'd be able to take the tax writeoff, and they would be donated to the Eisenhower rather than holding on to them for the Nixon Library. And Mrs. Livingston worked in Presidential Libraries at the time. And she refused to do it. And so that was the big flap about Mary Walton. She, she was just too honorable. She wasn’t going to do it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so it became known that he had attempted to, to bend the rules.

[Assistant] I see, OK, interesting.

[User] That predated me, though. I wasn’t here then.

[Assistant] OK, well, what have you brought to show us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I like that.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

[User] So that's, that's what that is. (holds it up again) And you can see Henry Kissinger's initials and the time.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] Now, Agnew's resignation letter never made it here. They say we lost it, but we didn't. It never came. That's one of the reasons why they got this one over here so fast, that afternoon it was delivered here. They didn't want it to go missing.

[Assistant] Yeah, I guess not. That’d be the end of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly. So you know, I mean it was very, it was a very different feel and Archives II is a horizontal building, not a vertical building. So you don't run into people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it's so huge that you have very little chance of running into people. So it's a different feel. And in this building, Jim McGronigle, who was the head of administration, decided he didn't like the tables being moved around in the snack bar. So he had them bolted to the floor. He got booths and that cut down on the, you know, the kind of camaraderie thing that was going on down there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So anyway.

[Assistant] Strange thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's so huge that you have very little chance of running into people. So it's a different feel. And in this building, Jim McGronigle, who was the head of administration, decided he didn't like the tables being moved around in the snack bar. So he had them bolted to the floor. He got booths and that cut down on the, you know, the kind of camaraderie thing that was going on down there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So anyway.

[Assistant] Strange thing to do.

[User] Yeah. Some people are weird.

[Assistant] You got that right. Well I think, you know, a lot of the criticism about, you know, the employees or people at work here have, is that there is the stovepiping has always been an issue, and communication, and it just seems to get worse. It's never resolved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So anyway.

[Assistant] Strange thing to do.

[User] Yeah. Some people are weird.

[Assistant] You got that right. Well I think, you know, a lot of the criticism about, you know, the employees or people at work here have, is that there is the stovepiping has always been an issue, and communication, and it just seems to get worse. It's never resolved.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And I don't know if there is a way to do it when we're physically separated, but that's no longer supposed to be an issue with social media, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Um, I guess my problem with the way things evolved, and I'm as guilty as anybody of hitting the forward button and, you know, we used to have, and they used to make us have, branch meetings, where people had to sit down together and, you know, see the faces of the other people in the unit and find out what they did. And at the end of my career, I was as guilty as anybody of relying almost entirely on electronic transmission. We were the big branch. You know, we had all those people, 70-some-odd employees, and it was just kind of overwhelming to try to get them all in one place at one time other than for the Christmas party.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] You know, so, but you lose something in doing it that way. And I'm trying really hard now that I'm no longer working and I'm retired, I'm trying really hard to call people, because it is so easy to email, and it is so, you know. But it's, you lose something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I'm trying really hard to stay in touch with some people and have lunch with them. And I'm trying really hard to remember to call instead of just emailing. But you know, I’m as guilty as anybody.

[Assistant] Well it's hard, it’s difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. You got to be fast on your feet. You got researchers beating you up over here, you got managers beating you over there. You have to be quick. And if somebody is putting up little notes telling you, you're not going to, you know. But I, I, I have to say the 31 years I've spent here were good years. I, I love this place. I love what we do. Loved, love what we did, what I did. I love what you do. And I, I honestly and truthfully believe that most of the people who work here are here for the same purpose, which gives you such a feeling of pride, you know, when you do a good job. That, and I always loved reference, because it had that psychic pay thing, you know. Of course, I never, I never understood why it was you work really, really hard for somebody and they just, “Oh, OK, fine.” And then you would do like nothing for somebody, and they would be, “My God! This is what I've been looking for my whole life.”

[Assistant] I had an email from somebody, he wanted to know if we had deck logs for a Navy vessel. And I said, “Yeah, we have those, and we have them for these dates.” And he wrote me back all in capital letters, “Hot Dog, exclamation point.” I just laughed at my desk. I thought, that's great, you know? I never had that response before.

[User] Hot dog! No, I’ve got, I have a folder of fan mail.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] From my early days. And I kept things, you know, people would write just reams, three pages of “Oh, you have just made my day, and “oh my golly.” And then you would work really, really hard finding something for somebody in a complex body of material. And they would look at it and go, “Oh yeah, OK.”

[Assistant] That's not what I wanted. (laughs)


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hot dog! No, I’ve got, I have a folder of fan mail.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] From my early days. And I kept things, you know, people would write just reams, three pages of “Oh, you have just made my day, and “oh my golly.” And then you would work really, really hard finding something for somebody in a complex body of material. And they would look at it and go, “Oh yeah, OK.”

[Assistant] That's not what I wanted. (laughs)

[User] “You haven't even looked at it, how do you know, it's not what you wanted?”

[Assistant] That's true. It has its … but it all balances out in the end, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From my early days. And I kept things, you know, people would write just reams, three pages of “Oh, you have just made my day, and “oh my golly.” And then you would work really, really hard finding something for somebody in a complex body of material. And they would look at it and go, “Oh yeah, OK.”

[Assistant] That's not what I wanted. (laughs)

[User] “You haven't even looked at it, how do you know, it's not what you wanted?”

[Assistant] That's true. It has its … but it all balances out in the end, right.

[User] Yeah that's right. In the end, in the final analysis, it all comes home.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything else you'd like to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah that's right. In the end, in the final analysis, it all comes home.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything else you'd like to talk about.

[User] OK, so we now know where NARS makes me tingle came from.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we know about Mary Walton Livingston, yes. Is there anything else from my my dim past? (Laughs)

[Assistant] I think there's a lot in the in here that has come to light. Perhaps you don't realize yet. (Both laugh)


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, so we now know where NARS makes me tingle came from.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we know about Mary Walton Livingston, yes. Is there anything else from my my dim past? (Laughs)

[Assistant] I think there's a lot in the in here that has come to light. Perhaps you don't realize yet. (Both laugh)

[User] OK.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Cindi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess they felt they had a greater need at that time here than they did there. It was just starting to build up here. Nobody had moved into the Center yet. We were scattered in offices all over the southeastern part of Houston, and the Public Affairs Office was in a building over on Griggs Road. So it was just the start of the buildup, and they wanted to get people here and ready to move into the new Center.

[Assistant] What were your impressions when you first moved to Houston from California?

[User] Well, of course, during my three or four months in California with NASA, I had been here several times. In fact, I went to MA-9 [Mercury Atlas 9] the last Mercury mission down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], and I had been here several other times. So I knew what to expect. My wife was a little bit different. About the time we were getting ready to move,\n\n Time\n\n magazine published an article about Houston and made the point that the British Foreign Service paid hardship pay for people who were stationed here, which gave her a little pause.\n\n But, no, we’ve enjoyed it. It was not near as a transient area as California was, and people were friendly. The biggest drawback, of course, was the humidity and the heat, but that’s been thirty-nine years ago, I guess. So we’ve withstood it.

[Assistant] When you came to Houston, it was the end of Mercury, the beginning of Gemini?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And during the Gemini Project and the Apollo Program, you served as a public information specialist to the Gemini Program Office, the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office, the Flight Crew Operations, and Flight Operations Directorates. Can you tell us about some of your specific duties when you first started here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went to a number of the briefings, not the ones that they had here on geology, but in the field. I would sit in on the briefings. Normally in the area that we were in, wherever it might be, they had a professor from a nearby university, a geology professor, who was well versed in that area, and he would give lectures, and I’d sit in on those.\n\n Uel Clanton, Dr. Clanton was a geologist working for NASA and one of the people in charge of the program, gave me a big book on geology that I studied. Fortunately, I’d had a five-hour course in geology in college. That kind of gave me the basics. I knew the basic forms of rocks and minerals and that sort of thing. Then I just mainly by observation and walking around, because whenever I wasn’t involved with the press, I just kind of hung around and kept my eyes and ears open, and you learn a lot that way.

[Assistant] The press conferences, did you facilitate them for the astronauts? You mentioned that they had their press conferences.

[User] When we were on field trips and things?

[Assistant] Well, before that you mentioned that they started the press conferences once a week.

[User] Oh, those were interviews.

[Assistant] Interviews. Excuse me, yes. Did you facilitate those, or did you help the astronauts, or did you coach them any on what they could or couldn’t say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we were on field trips and things?

[Assistant] Well, before that you mentioned that they started the press conferences once a week.

[User] Oh, those were interviews.

[Assistant] Interviews. Excuse me, yes. Did you facilitate those, or did you help the astronauts, or did you coach them any on what they could or couldn’t say?

[User] No, we didn’t coach them. They pretty much knew what to say and what not to say. In fact, a lot of them could have said more than they did. A lot of them didn’t understand the press or didn’t trust the press, and so they were kind of reticent to do things. But initially, well, I wasn’t the only one that got involved, because initially, and this is when the astronauts—their offices were out at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas,], and that’s where we did the interviews. But the demand was so great and we had so many, that probably two or three of us out of the office got involved.\n\n Initially we were required to sit in on the interviews and, in effect, monitor them, but after a year or so, we convinced management and the astronauts that the press didn’t really like that, and it was to the advantage of the agency and to them to—and by that time they were pretty well used to dealing with the press. So we were able to discontinue monitoring all of them, which freed you up to do other things.\n\n The news conferences mainly started when—well, we had news conferences when we had new groups of astronauts. Then when we started selecting crews, each crew would have an interview day, which started with a news conference and then individual interviews afterwards with the crew members. That occupied a full day every time. So that’s generally how it went.

[Assistant] On the geology field trips and the survival school, you mentioned that you were there. Did you field questions from the press, or were they followed wherever they traveled? Was there a lot of press interest everywhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I worked at the news center at the Cape mainly during Gemini, because I went to most of the launches down there, the Gemini launches, until when I started doing commentary, I didn’t go to the Cape as often, but when I did work in the news center here, it was generally on the query desk, or several times I’d worked at the interview desk and that sort of thing. We had several desks set up, an interview desk, a query desk, and a desk for the contractors and things like that.

[Assistant] Was it one large room?

[User] Yes, it was one large room. Well, in those days we were across the street from the Center in Building 6, is what we called it, one of those buildings in Nassau Bay, [Texas]. But it was a large open area, yes. It was like a bullpen, like a newsroom in a newspaper, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] From reading, I saw that Paul Haney opposed housing it offsite. He wanted it closer or onsite. Is that correct, or do you have any memories of that?

[User] Housing for what?

[Assistant] The news center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was one large room. Well, in those days we were across the street from the Center in Building 6, is what we called it, one of those buildings in Nassau Bay, [Texas]. But it was a large open area, yes. It was like a bullpen, like a newsroom in a newspaper, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] From reading, I saw that Paul Haney opposed housing it offsite. He wanted it closer or onsite. Is that correct, or do you have any memories of that?

[User] Housing for what?

[Assistant] The news center.

[User] Initially when we moved to the Center, we were onsite. Then I guess we kind of ran out of space, or the space wasn’t apportioned correctly. I think Building 2 at that time was made up mainly of individual offices, which didn’t work too well for a news center. We had an auditorium, but it was fairly small. We could get much more space across the street there. We had the whole building.\n\n But it was inconvenient in that you had to have transportation back and forth if you’re bringing people over for interviews or that sort of thing, or even just covering a beat. You couldn’t just walk to the next building. It was considerably more inconvenient than being onsite. I don’t recall how long we were over there, but it was probably a year or so.\n\n Then eventually they reconfigured Building 2 to more like a newsroom configuration, and we moved back. We were across the street during the [Apollo] 204 fire, and I think it was not too long after that we moved back over here, as I recall.

[Assistant] You mentioned being there during the simulations to get the information you needed to do your commentary. Did you actually practice your commentary during those simulations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Housing for what?

[Assistant] The news center.

[User] Initially when we moved to the Center, we were onsite. Then I guess we kind of ran out of space, or the space wasn’t apportioned correctly. I think Building 2 at that time was made up mainly of individual offices, which didn’t work too well for a news center. We had an auditorium, but it was fairly small. We could get much more space across the street there. We had the whole building.\n\n But it was inconvenient in that you had to have transportation back and forth if you’re bringing people over for interviews or that sort of thing, or even just covering a beat. You couldn’t just walk to the next building. It was considerably more inconvenient than being onsite. I don’t recall how long we were over there, but it was probably a year or so.\n\n Then eventually they reconfigured Building 2 to more like a newsroom configuration, and we moved back. We were across the street during the [Apollo] 204 fire, and I think it was not too long after that we moved back over here, as I recall.

[Assistant] You mentioned being there during the simulations to get the information you needed to do your commentary. Did you actually practice your commentary during those simulations?

[User] I didn’t, usually. I would make a lot of notes. Well, on some occasions I guess we did practice, particularly as we got down closer to the mission, because the sound room in the building would record and give us the tapes and we could listen to those and study those, too. So, yes, we did. But initially when you’re first starting just to learn the mission, no, just mainly familiarized ourselves with terms and things that were going to happen during the mission, and who was whom in the MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room], who were the people that you really had to know and get to, to get the kind of information you needed. But later, yes, we did do commentary as we got closer to the mission.

[Assistant] Were you given any instructions on how to do the commentary, or was that comfortable for you to start out doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wouldn’t say it was comfortable. I had never really done anything like that before. As I recall, we took some very basic training in speech, and they preferred you not to have some very obvious accent and that sort of thing.\n\n But I guess the most nervous part of commentary is always the launch, and commentators don’t usually start with the launch phase. You usually start out working the overnight, which is good because you learn a lot about the things that go on.\n\n The whole point of commentary was not to tell the public what was going on directly. So although I knew I was, I never felt like I was talking to thousands or millions of people. The idea of the commentary was to provide good information and explanations to the media, to the news media that was at the news center, so that they could disseminate correct information. Then, of course, the networks picked it up and put it on the air, so it became a little more than that. But I can’t say I was never uncomfortable doing some phases, but I always just tried to imagine that I was just talking to one or two people, not a lot of people. So I was never really discombobulated too much, I don’t think.

[Assistant] Was [John A.] “Shorty” Powers still there when you started?

[User] Yes, “Shorty” was the one that hired me, he and Ben James, and “Shorty”, he was still there, yes.

[Assistant] He was known as “The Voice of Mercury.”

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was his commentary different than what it was when you started doing it? Did it change somewhat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, “Shorty” was the one that hired me, he and Ben James, and “Shorty”, he was still there, yes.

[Assistant] He was known as “The Voice of Mercury.”

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was his commentary different than what it was when you started doing it? Did it change somewhat?

[User] Yes, I think it did change. “Shorty” had a very personal kind of commentary, and I think eventually we got to the point where we tried to make it more impersonal. But “Shorty” was pretty flamboyant, and he liked to invent phrases like “A-okay,” which nobody understood what it really meant, and he had a knack for doing it. I mean, he was a wonderful commentator, particularly for the initial program, the Mercury Program. He got people really interested in what was going on, and he could portray a sense of drama and all that kind of stuff. But that kind of changed, I think.\n\n I think Haney was probably the second commentator. He started commentary on—well, it was MA-9, because it was a, what, thirty-six-hour flight? I don’t remember exactly. But it was several days, and one commentator couldn’t do it all. So that’s when Paul started. He was at [NASA] Headquarters, [Washington, D.C.] at that time, and he started doing commentary. Then he came to Houston as the public affairs officer.\n\n But I think as the rest of us got into it, Terry [Robert T.] White and [John E.] McLeaish and Doug [Douglas K.] Ward, we tried to make it more impersonal and stress more the information and explanatory part of it. At least I did. I think they did, too.

[Assistant] You started in the mid-sixties with your commentary and went all the way through Shuttle with that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was his commentary different than what it was when you started doing it? Did it change somewhat?

[User] Yes, I think it did change. “Shorty” had a very personal kind of commentary, and I think eventually we got to the point where we tried to make it more impersonal. But “Shorty” was pretty flamboyant, and he liked to invent phrases like “A-okay,” which nobody understood what it really meant, and he had a knack for doing it. I mean, he was a wonderful commentator, particularly for the initial program, the Mercury Program. He got people really interested in what was going on, and he could portray a sense of drama and all that kind of stuff. But that kind of changed, I think.\n\n I think Haney was probably the second commentator. He started commentary on—well, it was MA-9, because it was a, what, thirty-six-hour flight? I don’t remember exactly. But it was several days, and one commentator couldn’t do it all. So that’s when Paul started. He was at [NASA] Headquarters, [Washington, D.C.] at that time, and he started doing commentary. Then he came to Houston as the public affairs officer.\n\n But I think as the rest of us got into it, Terry [Robert T.] White and [John E.] McLeaish and Doug [Douglas K.] Ward, we tried to make it more impersonal and stress more the information and explanatory part of it. At least I did. I think they did, too.

[Assistant] You started in the mid-sixties with your commentary and went all the way through Shuttle with that position?

[User] Well, I did the early part of the Shuttle, and I didn’t do a commentary on ASTP because I was too involved in the program itself.

[Assistant] Are there any missions, beginning with Gemini, that stick out in your mind while you were working and doing the commentary that you’d like to share? You mentioned that you were in the news center, or you were during Apollo 1, the fire.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember whether I was. If you asked me to make a list of every mission I was commentary, I couldn’t do it.

[Assistant] You don’t remember? That’s fine.

[User] And I don’t think I was, because that was just, like, the second Gemini mission, manned Gemini mission, I think, Gemini IV.

[Assistant] Yes, it was the first one that was actually mission control and Houston.

[User] Yes, that was in ’65, and the first one was John Young and—

[Assistant] And [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don’t think I was, because that was just, like, the second Gemini mission, manned Gemini mission, I think, Gemini IV.

[Assistant] Yes, it was the first one that was actually mission control and Houston.

[User] Yes, that was in ’65, and the first one was John Young and—

[Assistant] And [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom.

[User] And Grissom. We were still operating at the Cape at that time, and that was Gemini III, I think. So, no, I didn’t give commentary on IV, I don’t think, and I’m sure I went to the Cape for the launch and then came back after launch.

[Assistant] How many launches did you go to the Cape for? Was that all through Apollo also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was in ’65, and the first one was John Young and—

[Assistant] And [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom.

[User] And Grissom. We were still operating at the Cape at that time, and that was Gemini III, I think. So, no, I didn’t give commentary on IV, I don’t think, and I’m sure I went to the Cape for the launch and then came back after launch.

[Assistant] How many launches did you go to the Cape for? Was that all through Apollo also?

[User] I went to the Cape for some of the unmanned Apollo launches, but for most of the Apollo launches I did commentary, I think. I didn’t go to Apollo 8. I think I worked the query desk here. But for most of the others I did commentary. So I never did get to the Cape for a manned Apollo launch. I was there for the first Saturn V launch, but that was unmanned, and I was there for one of the early Saturn launches, and it was a night launch, Saturn I. It wasn’t a V, was it? No, I didn’t go to the Cape for any Apollo launches.\n\n The only Shuttle launch I ever went to the Cape for was several years ago after I retired, and NASA retirees had a big reunion at the Cape during one of the launches, and we all saw the launch from the press site. But because I was always busy, I was either doing commentary in the initial part or after I became the branch chief, I was tied up with management kind of stuff in the news center, and I didn’t do commentary then either.\n\n I was there for the last Mercury launch and for most of the Gemini launches, but after Gemini I didn’t go, other than, I’d say, a couple of the unmanned Apollo type.

[Assistant] Apollo 7, of course, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was labeled “grumpy” by the press, and I believe there were some issues during that flight. Did you have to deal with any of that or deal with the press during any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I think we learned a lot just from the sheer volume of the media, but by that time we had quite a bit of experience on missions and handling. So I don’t recall any kind of drastic or unusual changes involved.

[Assistant] You said you were doing the commentary during the first Moon walk, when Neil [A.] Armstrong stepped on the Moon.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Were you so busy doing what you were doing, or how did it affect you when that happened?

[User] Well, I was fairly awe-struck, I guess. But as I recall, we had made arrangements to have one of the geologists sit with us. I can’t remember whether we started that on 11 or maybe a little bit later. But, anyway, on several of the Apollo missions we had some of the NASA geologists sit with us so that we could use their expertise when the crew was picking up rocks and soil and that sort of thing, and that was very helpful.\n\n Of course, the Apollo 11 EVA, it wasn’t as extensive as the later ones, but, yes, I would have to say I was very impressed. The pictures were kind of fuzzy. They weren’t as good as they were later on when we had better cameras and better places to put them, but it was by far the most exciting pictures from space that we had seen since—of course, Apollo 8 was the low-level surface of the Moon. TV pictures were great, you know. Everybody liked those. But to actually see somebody out on the surface, it was the culmination of what everybody had been looking forward to for so long, and they didn’t fall through the surface or the dust like some people thought they might. But we didn’t think they would anyway.

[Assistant] Apollo 12, unfortunately, had the problem with the camera. How did that affect what your office was doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, we hadn’t had the delay for a long time before that.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] I don’t recall Pete—at least I never heard him say anything, that he was—but, no, I’m not aware of any fears he might have had along that line. He may have said that to somebody else, but I didn’t hear about it.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo 13 before, and the fact that you had the press in the MOCR, the press pool. That was established actually before the mission, right? I mean, it didn’t happen as a result of 13, did it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall Pete—at least I never heard him say anything, that he was—but, no, I’m not aware of any fears he might have had along that line. He may have said that to somebody else, but I didn’t hear about it.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo 13 before, and the fact that you had the press in the MOCR, the press pool. That was established actually before the mission, right? I mean, it didn’t happen as a result of 13, did it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it did?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] They weren’t in there before the actual accident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it did?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] They weren’t in there before the actual accident?

[User] No. No, they were not. I’m trying to think who the public affairs officer was at that time.

[Assistant] Was it Brian Duff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, it just mushroomed, yes.

[Assistant] Was there any problem handling the amount of press or the interest?

[User] No, I don’t recall any big problem, because we already had the facilities that we’d had there before. So it was JUST putting up with the hectic thing of trying to get everybody registered and signed in as they came flooding in and assigned to work positions over in the press working area and that sort of thing. So it kept everybody busy in the news center, but it was not any really big problem.

[Assistant] The subsequent missions, of course, had more geology, and you had been going on the field trips and studying the geology. On these missions you also had geologists sitting with you?

[User] We didn’t on all of them, but there were several that we did, a couple at least, and I can’t remember now which ones those might have been. I don’t know whether 14 was one or not, but 15 I think we may have. Fifteen was when we first had the Rover. Fourteen, they just had that little cart they pulled, a kind of a surrey or something.\n\n I don’t think we had them there for every subsequent mission, but we did on at least two or three more. I can’t remember exactly which one.

[Assistant] Before we get into the further missions past Apollo, do you want to go ahead and take a break just for a second and stretch your legs? We’ve been going a little over an hour.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t recall any big problem, because we already had the facilities that we’d had there before. So it was JUST putting up with the hectic thing of trying to get everybody registered and signed in as they came flooding in and assigned to work positions over in the press working area and that sort of thing. So it kept everybody busy in the news center, but it was not any really big problem.

[Assistant] The subsequent missions, of course, had more geology, and you had been going on the field trips and studying the geology. On these missions you also had geologists sitting with you?

[User] We didn’t on all of them, but there were several that we did, a couple at least, and I can’t remember now which ones those might have been. I don’t know whether 14 was one or not, but 15 I think we may have. Fifteen was when we first had the Rover. Fourteen, they just had that little cart they pulled, a kind of a surrey or something.\n\n I don’t think we had them there for every subsequent mission, but we did on at least two or three more. I can’t remember exactly which one.

[Assistant] Before we get into the further missions past Apollo, do you want to go ahead and take a break just for a second and stretch your legs? We’ve been going a little over an hour.

[User] Okay. All right.\n\n [Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] Okay, we’re back again with Mr. Riley, and we’ve just talked about Apollo. I think I’d like to go on to Skylab now and talk to you a little bit about Skylab. Considering that Skylab was the first truly long-duration flight, after the initial glitch at the beginning, how did that change the role of PAO and the commentary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and Janet Ross. But, yes, they were the first to do commentary, I think. I can’t think of any woman we had on the commentary team prior to them. But they worked out real well. In fact, that was probably one of the most satisfying parts of my NASA career, was being able to draft that training program and oversee it and kind of make sure that they did well and got promoted and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Were you given a list of names to choose from, and were you able to choose them?

[User] Yes, as I recall, we were able to choose them. I think John McLeaish and I interviewed. I don’t remember how many initially were on the list, but the ones we wound up with were ones that we were able to select from a list of applicants. They were NASA employees, mainly secretaries or administrative assistants, that sort of thing, who applied through the Personnel Office when they sent out an announcement that these positions are open. So we were able to select them, yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] But I think that all happened, like I say, it was around ’81, ’82. I think it was probably ’82 by the time they finished their training, as I recall. We had gone [through] what you were talking about earlier, the period of long-duration kind of things that was mainly just a big pain for everybody in the office, but you had to do it because there was no alternative.

[Assistant] Some of the other issues during Skylab, I believe there was some tension or some discussion between PAO and the Office of Manned Space Flight on whether or not to broadcast the medical discussions. Do you have any recollections of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as I recall, we were able to choose them. I think John McLeaish and I interviewed. I don’t remember how many initially were on the list, but the ones we wound up with were ones that we were able to select from a list of applicants. They were NASA employees, mainly secretaries or administrative assistants, that sort of thing, who applied through the Personnel Office when they sent out an announcement that these positions are open. So we were able to select them, yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] But I think that all happened, like I say, it was around ’81, ’82. I think it was probably ’82 by the time they finished their training, as I recall. We had gone [through] what you were talking about earlier, the period of long-duration kind of things that was mainly just a big pain for everybody in the office, but you had to do it because there was no alternative.

[Assistant] Some of the other issues during Skylab, I believe there was some tension or some discussion between PAO and the Office of Manned Space Flight on whether or not to broadcast the medical discussions. Do you have any recollections of that?

[User] I don’t recall that it was ever proposed that we broadcast the medical discussions themselves, but we did think that we had to provide information on what they were about, and we eventually came up with that we were allowed to put out a summary of what was discussed and why, to satisfy the media, primarily, that somebody wasn’t deathly ill or that sort of thing.\n\n I don’t recall, and this could have happened at Headquarters, this discussion, but I don’t recall any discussion here about or anybody pushing that we should release the entire conversation between the crew and the doctor, no. After the discussion was over, why, somebody would get with the flight surgeon and put together a summary, and then that was released.

[Assistant] After Skylab, then let’s talk about ASTP and your role in drafting the public information plan for that project. How did you become involved in that aspect of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s vaguely familiar, but I don’t really remember the specifics. Seems to me they did propose a room that really didn’t handle the number of people that we expected, but that got worked out, as I recall, yes. It was not a real big deal, I don’t think, as I recall.

[Assistant] The part two of the plan, did you have anything to do with that?

[User] No. I think I probably had input because we had some meetings. Part two was primarily drafted at Headquarters, but several Headquarters people would come down, particularly during the working group meetings and things, and we would have discussions about part two and then kind of kick things around. So we were pretty much aware what was going to be in it, but I didn’t get personally involved in putting it down on paper like I did part one with the original draft, no.

[Assistant] Glynn Lunney, we interviewed him, he mentioned in his interview that he was a little concerned at that time about Headquarters coming in after the fact and maybe possibly destroying some of the rapport that had already been built up, and he felt that JSC PAO people were perfectly capable of handling everything. Do you have any specific memories about that issue or that time?

[User] Well, I remember that after we were pretty well into the preparations for the mission, that Headquarters took a lot bigger interest in it and got more heavily involved. I agree with Glynn. I think if it was left up to us, we could have handled it fine. I don’t recall I had any real trepidation that Headquarters was going to mess things up, because they got pretty heavily involved in the TV plans and the photo plans and stuff like that.

[Assistant] Was that more part two?