[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Florida, in Gainesville. Grew up there, went to school there, went to college there. Not to bore you with any details about all that, but I did major in accounting. While I was in school I was teaching diving and got into a technical type of diving while I was there. Several years after I graduated, an opportunity came up to come down here and interview for a job because of contacts that I’d made in the diving world. I liked diving a lot better than I did accounting. I never intended to be here longer than a few years, and that was 31 years ago.

[Assistant] Talk about your first jobs when you got here and some of the first missions that you worked on.

[User] Well, I was hired as a lead diver. That was my primary job, but like everybody else over here we did multiple jobs. My responsibility was to lead teams of divers, particularly during the Shuttle missions. That was what we did 90% of the time. Then when we came back from the Shuttle missions I would work disassembly shifts to take apart the boosters until they were done. After that was completed, then we would do preventive maintenance on the dive gear, what we call the GSE, the government-supplied equipment, the retrieval equipment that we use during the missions.

[Assistant] What was the first Shuttle mission that you worked?

[User] STS-3.

[Assistant] Were a lot of the procedures already in place when you first got here? Or did you help develop some of the procedures and processes that you used on the very last mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Ambar boats are a hard-bottomed boat, but they also have an inflatable RIB [rigid inflatable boat] on them. We [have] a davit that you [can] use to launch that boat with the equipment and with some people in it. You can’t launch it with the whole crew in the boat, so the biggest help was being able to launch these boats with the gear in them.\n\n Before, we would have to come back beside the ship, hand up these heavy double tanks from the small boat into the ship, and all the other gear, and then bring the boat aboard. At least now we could leave all the gear in the boat. The tanks and the regulators and the cameras and the toolboxes and everything else, just bring it onto the boat. That helped a lot.

[Assistant] What brought that change? Was it feedback from the crews to the management? Or was there a safety issue? Was there a diver that was endangered and therefore it brought that change about?

[User] There was not a specific instance that caused that to happen. There was a general knowledge that it was always a problem transferring the gear and the equipment from the ship to the small boat. At the time that we started this operation, these Ambar boats were not available, to the best of my knowledge. We went from Zodiacs, which had no hard bottom at all, when I came here, to these Avon boats, British boats that had a fiberglass bottom but a bigger sponson, the inflatable part. You could launch these boats, but not really with the gear in them. There just wasn’t the room, no places to put it.\n\n The Ambars gave us the ability to put tanks and regulators and boxes and oxygen resuscitators and everything in the boat, and lash it all down. We could even launch people in these boats; you just couldn’t launch everybody in them usually.

[Assistant] You said you were here for STS-4.

[User] We lost the boosters, yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us the end of that mission? What did you bring back after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lost the boosters, yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us the end of that mission? What did you bring back after?

[User] We brought the frustums back. It was my second mission, in [June 1982]. The ocean was like glass. Every launch we would seem to lose some parachutes. The boosters would hit the water, the parachutes had some type of pyrotechnic on top, and the feet would blow off when they’d hit the water, just before it hit the water, or at splashdown. All of the floats were up in the apex of the parachutes, and for some reason we kept losing one or two chutes on these launches. So they decided instead of blowing all the legs off, to blow every other leg off. That would leave one leg of the parachutes attached to the booster.\n\n But what happened was the booster sensed splashdown thousands of feet up, so the chutes are maybe not even totally dereefed. Every other leg blows off, and then the chutes streamer. They hit, they broke apart, and they sank. The frustums were there. We got there, and there’s no boosters. There was just nothing. We were there several hours. I remember I jumped in the water, I think I was probably the only one to dive. I jumped off the back of the Freedom [Star] with a scooter and went down to about 70 feet. There was this big black cloud, but there was nothing. We determined pretty quickly that they sank. Then I spent a great part of my summer out at sea that year, because we went out there with ROVs [remotely operated vehicles] and hunted for them till we found them and took a lot of pictures.

[Assistant] Were the pictures given to people for assessment?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Other than Challenger, was there another time that you came back with a lighter load than you expected when you went out for retrieval?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn’t, because you’re bringing up debris. Fortunately for us, we didn’t work on the crew cabin at all. Whoever was in charge decided that the Navy boat out there would do that. They parked on top of it and they did it all, so we were left looking for satellites and other stuff, which was better.

[Assistant] What are some of the other missions that you’ve gone on with the ships that were a little bit unique? Did you go out on the treasure hunt?

[User] I wasn’t on it. I guess at a period of time between launches, there was a group—I believe it was the ship the America, maybe—that had a considerable amount of treasure on board. A group had put together a plan and had an area staked out. You can get some type of a permit or claim, and they were working that when another group came along and decided well just in case they would hunt in the area near there. So the Liberty went out with them, and they pulled a towed array around but the first group found it. I think it was up off of North Carolina or someplace like that.

[Assistant] A bit odd in the history of the ships. You did some work with NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration].

[User] I did quite a bit of work with NOAA. Not all of it diving, but diving-wise we did one expedition to a place called the Flower Gardens, which being from Texas you should know about because it’s not far off of Houston.

[Assistant] Closer to Galveston [Island].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t on it. I guess at a period of time between launches, there was a group—I believe it was the ship the America, maybe—that had a considerable amount of treasure on board. A group had put together a plan and had an area staked out. You can get some type of a permit or claim, and they were working that when another group came along and decided well just in case they would hunt in the area near there. So the Liberty went out with them, and they pulled a towed array around but the first group found it. I think it was up off of North Carolina or someplace like that.

[Assistant] A bit odd in the history of the ships. You did some work with NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration].

[User] I did quite a bit of work with NOAA. Not all of it diving, but diving-wise we did one expedition to a place called the Flower Gardens, which being from Texas you should know about because it’s not far off of Houston.

[Assistant] Closer to Galveston [Island].

[User] Galveston, yes. It’s an absolutely fabulous place. We were out there for maybe a week to ten days doing scientific work for NOAA, diving every day. It’s beautiful. The tops of these salt domes come up to about 100 feet of water and come out of about 400, 500 feet of water. They’re very very similar-looking to the [Florida] Keys. Some fish that we have in the Keys like yellowtail snapper don’t exist there at all, but a lot of the other stuff does. The most magnificent plate coral I’ve ever seen, and crystal clear water, just crystal clear, with oil wells around. Really interesting, something you don’t see in Florida.\n\n Then we’ve done quite a bit of work with NOAA at Aquarius, the undersea laboratory that’s off of Key Largo [Florida]. One of the most interesting things I’ve ever done here was I had the opportunity to saturate at Aquarius for five days prior to one of the other missions, and that was very different.

[Assistant] What does that mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did quite a bit of work with NOAA. Not all of it diving, but diving-wise we did one expedition to a place called the Flower Gardens, which being from Texas you should know about because it’s not far off of Houston.

[Assistant] Closer to Galveston [Island].

[User] Galveston, yes. It’s an absolutely fabulous place. We were out there for maybe a week to ten days doing scientific work for NOAA, diving every day. It’s beautiful. The tops of these salt domes come up to about 100 feet of water and come out of about 400, 500 feet of water. They’re very very similar-looking to the [Florida] Keys. Some fish that we have in the Keys like yellowtail snapper don’t exist there at all, but a lot of the other stuff does. The most magnificent plate coral I’ve ever seen, and crystal clear water, just crystal clear, with oil wells around. Really interesting, something you don’t see in Florida.\n\n Then we’ve done quite a bit of work with NOAA at Aquarius, the undersea laboratory that’s off of Key Largo [Florida]. One of the most interesting things I’ve ever done here was I had the opportunity to saturate at Aquarius for five days prior to one of the other missions, and that was very different.

[Assistant] What does that mean?

[User] In other words, I was able to go live in the habitat for five days underwater, and we were setting everything up for a 14-day mission. We were running cables and com [communication] lines and putting down little outposts and things for a week. That was very different. Since then we’ve supported quite a few scientific missions down there, one NEEMO [NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations] mission. Hopefully we’ll do another one this June.

[Assistant] What is the value of working with those types of operations, for your group as well as the contracting group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was ’86 or ’87. It was right after Challenger.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have any questions that you can think of?

I was trying to think of something personal. I’m wondering, do you have any amusing or funny stories about any retrievals that you can share with us?

Anything memorable. You talked about the bad weather conditions, but were there other times? Or are there any traditions that you guys do when you’re coming back in or going out for a mission?

[User] Gosh, most of the guys are pretty sullen when they’re going out and it’s bad. Morale is low. When you head out through the port and the palm trees are turned inside out, morale plummets, but the morale improves when they’re heading back on the way in. I guess there’s been lots of funny things. Occasionally we would do crazy things like we’d be on a training mission and we’d take a whole carton of eggs, and then we’d fly by the other ship’s small boat and just plaster them with eggs, just for the heck of it. Things like that.

[Assistant] A little rivalry between the two of you.

[User] Yes, sometimes you just turn into kids.

[Assistant] Is there a downside part of your job? So much of what you do is enjoyable, because you enjoy the diving part, but is there—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody who dives. If you’re going to be on the active dive list, you have to pass this fitness test every 90 days. We still have some guys that are current and uncurrent, current and uncurrent. There’s still a few that are having issues. They’ll go for three or four months, you don’t ever see them in the gym. Then they fail the test and then you see them over there every day. They still don’t like to work out that much, but they want to dive enough to get it done. So that’s funny, but it works.

[Assistant] At the most, how many active divers did you have at your peak?

[User] Between 30 and 35.

[Assistant] And now how many?

[User] Oh, 14.

[Assistant] So a lot of the people who are still here are part of your active dive team, give or take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Between 30 and 35.

[Assistant] And now how many?

[User] Oh, 14.

[Assistant] So a lot of the people who are still here are part of your active dive team, give or take?

[User] Well, they’re all active right now. Most of the divers are what you would call part-time divers. Most of them always were. I never had more than, say, four full-time divers that that was their primary job. And even those guys were all seconded off to other areas. They all worked disassembly. They all would go down and work on the ships if need be. There never was enough diving in this job to be able to hire someone just as divers and just have that the only thing they did.\n\n All of the people that were involved in retrieval did various jobs. You had to be able to move from one area to another. I had engineers that would be heading up jobs here that would wind up on the deck of the ship taking orders from the lowest tech or the lowliest seaman that we have. That’s the way it’s been since I’ve been here. If you didn’t fit in with that type of environment, it wasn’t going to work for you. You had to be able to give orders and take orders.

[Assistant] You spent many years with John [C.] Fischbeck. We had an opportunity to talk with him for a few minutes, and he told us about a time he was on watch. He noticed in the depths of the water while some of your crew members were out swimming that he saw sharks. Can you share with us some of the dangers of sharks in what you do for a living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the SWARs. Getting the parachutes disconnected in any kind of manner other than us having to do it by hand, that was very important. Way more important than getting anything color-coded. That helped a lot and made the job a lot easier and safer.

[Assistant] How big were the floats?

[User] We changed over the years. Originally we were using these Oslo floats. I’m sure you’ve seen them. They’re big red balls. You probably see them with the smaller boats out here. They use them all the time. They’re about this big around [demonstrates]. The bigger ones, they’re called Oslo 80s. I don’t know exactly what the diameter is, but they’re the larger ones that they make. We were putting four of those on each parachute. It took at least two of them to float a chute. Later we started using ships’ fenders, the big white torpedo looking things. They’re that big around [demonstrates] and three or four feet long. They come in varying sizes. We would put two of those on each chute, one on each leg.

[Assistant] On the trip out were these housed on the back of the boat, or were they inside the ship?

[User] The floats stayed up on the bow. We used them as fenders and as floats for the parachutes, so they served a dual purpose. They’re much bigger than the Oslo floats, so you didn’t have to use as many.

[Assistant] To get those in the water—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We changed over the years. Originally we were using these Oslo floats. I’m sure you’ve seen them. They’re big red balls. You probably see them with the smaller boats out here. They use them all the time. They’re about this big around [demonstrates]. The bigger ones, they’re called Oslo 80s. I don’t know exactly what the diameter is, but they’re the larger ones that they make. We were putting four of those on each parachute. It took at least two of them to float a chute. Later we started using ships’ fenders, the big white torpedo looking things. They’re that big around [demonstrates] and three or four feet long. They come in varying sizes. We would put two of those on each chute, one on each leg.

[Assistant] On the trip out were these housed on the back of the boat, or were they inside the ship?

[User] The floats stayed up on the bow. We used them as fenders and as floats for the parachutes, so they served a dual purpose. They’re much bigger than the Oslo floats, so you didn’t have to use as many.

[Assistant] To get those in the water—

[User] We’d drag them over. Too big to put in the boat, so we would throw them in the water and drag them over. You had the lines already made up to them, then you would just dive down and tie them in place. It worked out pretty good.

[Assistant] You mentioned the seatbelt cutters. Were there other unique tools that you used for your job? You talked to us about the DOP.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The floats stayed up on the bow. We used them as fenders and as floats for the parachutes, so they served a dual purpose. They’re much bigger than the Oslo floats, so you didn’t have to use as many.

[Assistant] To get those in the water—

[User] We’d drag them over. Too big to put in the boat, so we would throw them in the water and drag them over. You had the lines already made up to them, then you would just dive down and tie them in place. It worked out pretty good.

[Assistant] You mentioned the seatbelt cutters. Were there other unique tools that you used for your job? You talked to us about the DOP.

[User] We had to put lights on the booster. When you’re towing something, you have to put a light on it. If you have a barge that’s being towed from a tugboat at sea, it has to have a bow and a stern light. So we used magnetic lights for the front, and we’d basically stick it on during the retrieval process, just go up to it in the boat and throw it on there. Then we had another light that we would actually put on at depth. We would put it where the hold-down posts are on the booster, those leave four holes. We would put what we called a DIPP in there, which stands for diver-inserted post plug. It was basically a plug you could put in that hole. By turning it you expanded the plug, and it would hold anything. We used it to put an eye in there that we could put a cable on, or we used it for the stinger that we made up later, and we had a light that we’d put in there.\n\n Of course you had to train the divers to put it in the right hole, because on the towback at least one of those holes is completely underwater. So occasionally the divers would put it in the wrong DIPP hole and the light would be underwater. Did John talk to you at all about the dewatering process?

[Assistant] A little bit, but you can share with us if you’d like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that would be '63 and I would have been starting my fifth year in architecture at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana. So my last year of school.

[Assistant] And so you've been in college then five years?

[User] Yeah, I mean, that would be been my fifth year straight.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?

[User] I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.

[Assistant] Went to high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.

[Assistant] Went to high school?

[User] Went to high school at Austin High School. I grew up in the west side of Chicago.

[Assistant] Brothers, sisters?

[User] No. Only child, which is the source of many of my problems.

[Assistant] We may get into some of those. And during your high school years, did you study a foreign language? Did you do any travel, any volunteer work in summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Went to high school at Austin High School. I grew up in the west side of Chicago.

[Assistant] Brothers, sisters?

[User] No. Only child, which is the source of many of my problems.

[Assistant] We may get into some of those. And during your high school years, did you study a foreign language? Did you do any travel, any volunteer work in summers?

[User] I did. I did. I studied Spanish in high school. I think that was probably the most common language that everybody studied. Not that it did me much good, but I studied it and I got good grades. I guess I did some volunteer work I'm trying to remember. Or did I? I was involved in some community activities, Jewish community activities, Jewish Community Center, track stuff. Traveling, to that point, not really. I go back a little bit. My mother's a whole other interesting story. My mother's sister in 1945 or 6 had married a Russian Jew who had immigrated to Cuba in the thirties, I believe. And they met here and they got married and they moved to Havana, back to Havana, where he had a business. And so as I was growing up for, from when I was about four or so until I was about 11, we would go visit them every year. They'd take me out of school at Christmas time. Instead of two weeks, I'd be gone four or five weeks or whatever. And so we'd go, you know, spend time with my aunt and uncle.

[Assistant] On the visits, did you have a chance to speak English or Yiddish or Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I did. I studied Spanish in high school. I think that was probably the most common language that everybody studied. Not that it did me much good, but I studied it and I got good grades. I guess I did some volunteer work I'm trying to remember. Or did I? I was involved in some community activities, Jewish community activities, Jewish Community Center, track stuff. Traveling, to that point, not really. I go back a little bit. My mother's a whole other interesting story. My mother's sister in 1945 or 6 had married a Russian Jew who had immigrated to Cuba in the thirties, I believe. And they met here and they got married and they moved to Havana, back to Havana, where he had a business. And so as I was growing up for, from when I was about four or so until I was about 11, we would go visit them every year. They'd take me out of school at Christmas time. Instead of two weeks, I'd be gone four or five weeks or whatever. And so we'd go, you know, spend time with my aunt and uncle.

[Assistant] On the visits, did you have a chance to speak English or Yiddish or Spanish?

[User] I didn't understand much of anything.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But I guess I got acclimated to it.

[Assistant] But you were in the Spanish speaking environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't understand much of anything.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But I guess I got acclimated to it.

[Assistant] But you were in the Spanish speaking environment.

[User] A Spanish speaking environment, yeah.

[Assistant] So when you're finishing high school, what was your goal at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I guess I got acclimated to it.

[Assistant] But you were in the Spanish speaking environment.

[User] A Spanish speaking environment, yeah.

[Assistant] So when you're finishing high school, what was your goal at that point?

[User] At that goal, I had decided I wanted to study architecture, and so I went to Champaign-Urbana and enrolled in. And I got a kick out of it because these days it sounds like there's such competition to get into state universities. I mean, back when I went to school in '59, it was, oh, you want to come to the University of Illinois? Fine. When can we expect you? And so it wasn't, it was not a problem at all to get into universities.

[Assistant] What was it that led you to architecture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that goal, I had decided I wanted to study architecture, and so I went to Champaign-Urbana and enrolled in. And I got a kick out of it because these days it sounds like there's such competition to get into state universities. I mean, back when I went to school in '59, it was, oh, you want to come to the University of Illinois? Fine. When can we expect you? And so it wasn't, it was not a problem at all to get into universities.

[Assistant] What was it that led you to architecture?

[User] I thought I wanted to start study engineering. I just, I'm not exactly sure why, but I just kind of felt that way. You know, I had an erector set when I was a kid and a Lionel train and Lincoln logs and all of those things. And I went to Austin High School, which at that time was one of the three or four public high schools in the city of Chicago that had a technical education component.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So it was there was mechanical drafting, there was architectural drawing. They had shops and foundries and the whole nine yards. And so I, in addition to taking a general college prep curriculum, I also took shop and mechanical drawing.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you applied to school and were admitted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought I wanted to start study engineering. I just, I'm not exactly sure why, but I just kind of felt that way. You know, I had an erector set when I was a kid and a Lionel train and Lincoln logs and all of those things. And I went to Austin High School, which at that time was one of the three or four public high schools in the city of Chicago that had a technical education component.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So it was there was mechanical drafting, there was architectural drawing. They had shops and foundries and the whole nine yards. And so I, in addition to taking a general college prep curriculum, I also took shop and mechanical drawing.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you applied to school and were admitted.

[User] There was a minute.

[Assistant] Right. So now you were doing essentially an engineering curriculum or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was there was mechanical drafting, there was architectural drawing. They had shops and foundries and the whole nine yards. And so I, in addition to taking a general college prep curriculum, I also took shop and mechanical drawing.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you applied to school and were admitted.

[User] There was a minute.

[Assistant] Right. So now you were doing essentially an engineering curriculum or?

[User] No, I was doing architecture. I had.

[Assistant] From the get-go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a minute.

[Assistant] Right. So now you were doing essentially an engineering curriculum or?

[User] No, I was doing architecture. I had.

[Assistant] From the get-go?

[User] From the get-go. Yeah, I just I had decided that engineering probably wasn't going to be for me. I had gotten involved in some architectural drawing classes in high school and I liked that a lot. And then when I went down to Champaign, I actually enrolled in architectural engineering. And that lasted for two years, and then I switched over to the straight architectural curriculum, aiming toward.

[Assistant] Would it still be five years to the market?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was doing architecture. I had.

[Assistant] From the get-go?

[User] From the get-go. Yeah, I just I had decided that engineering probably wasn't going to be for me. I had gotten involved in some architectural drawing classes in high school and I liked that a lot. And then when I went down to Champaign, I actually enrolled in architectural engineering. And that lasted for two years, and then I switched over to the straight architectural curriculum, aiming toward.

[Assistant] Would it still be five years to the market?

[User] So, yeah, it's still five years, but it would be a BA instead of a BS. That was the only difference.

[Assistant] And again, during your college years, travel and any volunteer work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the get-go. Yeah, I just I had decided that engineering probably wasn't going to be for me. I had gotten involved in some architectural drawing classes in high school and I liked that a lot. And then when I went down to Champaign, I actually enrolled in architectural engineering. And that lasted for two years, and then I switched over to the straight architectural curriculum, aiming toward.

[Assistant] Would it still be five years to the market?

[User] So, yeah, it's still five years, but it would be a BA instead of a BS. That was the only difference.

[Assistant] And again, during your college years, travel and any volunteer work?

[User] No, nothing. Well, you know, I'm just trying to remember that in school, I mean, summer jobs. I had summer jobs as a camp counselor. Then I eventually had summer jobs in architectural offices.

[Assistant] Did you continue language studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah, it's still five years, but it would be a BA instead of a BS. That was the only difference.

[Assistant] And again, during your college years, travel and any volunteer work?

[User] No, nothing. Well, you know, I'm just trying to remember that in school, I mean, summer jobs. I had summer jobs as a camp counselor. Then I eventually had summer jobs in architectural offices.

[Assistant] Did you continue language studies?

[User] No, not in college. I didn't. I didn't take any language in college. It wasn't a requirement in the architectural or engineering program to take a language. But what I did miss though, in which I subsequently made up in an MA program, they missed all the things that you didn't have time to take when you were doing a technical curriculum. Because, I mean, from the get-go, I had 16 hours a semester. And it was like going to school, you know, 8:30 to 4:00 or 5:00 every day, practically.

[Assistant] So do you remember when you first heard about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not in college. I didn't. I didn't take any language in college. It wasn't a requirement in the architectural or engineering program to take a language. But what I did miss though, in which I subsequently made up in an MA program, they missed all the things that you didn't have time to take when you were doing a technical curriculum. Because, I mean, from the get-go, I had 16 hours a semester. And it was like going to school, you know, 8:30 to 4:00 or 5:00 every day, practically.

[Assistant] So do you remember when you first heard about Peace Corps?

[User] Yeah, I do. It was. I started college, because Chicago at that time had, you could start school in either September or February. And I had started in February because that's when my birthday was. And so my first semester of my fifth year was February to May. Must have been, you know, it was '63. And so my second semester was going to be following the summer to the following February, and it was one of those really lovely spring days, kind of like today is. And it was late in the semester and I was walking through the Quad in Champaign from, I think, from the union back towards, I don't know if I was going home or where. I walked by one of the buildings. And there was a sign outside that said, Peace Corps recruiters or, you know, something like that. And I said, I don't know if I even heard of the Peace Corps at that point. And I don't know what the sign said, but it enticed me to go in. And, you know, I found out about it and I said, well, it sounds interesting. So I sat down and took the test right there.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So they were actually giving the test. So I don't remember if I came back and took it or if I took it right there, it seems to me I just took it right there.

[Assistant] Could be. Now this is in your last year of school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I do. It was. I started college, because Chicago at that time had, you could start school in either September or February. And I had started in February because that's when my birthday was. And so my first semester of my fifth year was February to May. Must have been, you know, it was '63. And so my second semester was going to be following the summer to the following February, and it was one of those really lovely spring days, kind of like today is. And it was late in the semester and I was walking through the Quad in Champaign from, I think, from the union back towards, I don't know if I was going home or where. I walked by one of the buildings. And there was a sign outside that said, Peace Corps recruiters or, you know, something like that. And I said, I don't know if I even heard of the Peace Corps at that point. And I don't know what the sign said, but it enticed me to go in. And, you know, I found out about it and I said, well, it sounds interesting. So I sat down and took the test right there.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So they were actually giving the test. So I don't remember if I came back and took it or if I took it right there, it seems to me I just took it right there.

[Assistant] Could be. Now this is in your last year of school?

[User] This is my last year. My last year of school, my second to last semester.

[Assistant] And if you took the test at the same time, you must have filled out the application. Do you recall that? One of the things in the app, a couple of them. One, they ask if you have a preference for area assignments. And two, they may ask also if you have any, feel you have any confidence in the foreign language. Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is my last year. My last year of school, my second to last semester.

[Assistant] And if you took the test at the same time, you must have filled out the application. Do you recall that? One of the things in the app, a couple of them. One, they ask if you have a preference for area assignments. And two, they may ask also if you have any, feel you have any confidence in the foreign language. Do you remember?

[User] I don't remember the area. If I answered it, I have no idea how I answered it. And then I remember there was kind of a foreign language competency component to the test.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was kind of a nonsense skipping syllables or whatever.

[Assistant] It was actually Urdu.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember the area. If I answered it, I have no idea how I answered it. And then I remember there was kind of a foreign language competency component to the test.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was kind of a nonsense skipping syllables or whatever.

[Assistant] It was actually Urdu.

[User] Was that what it was? Oh, now I know 40 years later. So, you know, I took it and they're saying goodbye, whatever, you'll hear from us in whatever and.

[Assistant] How far away from graduation are you at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was that what it was? Oh, now I know 40 years later. So, you know, I took it and they're saying goodbye, whatever, you'll hear from us in whatever and.

[Assistant] How far away from graduation are you at this point?

[User] Oh, it's the summer and then another semester.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So it's the June, July. June, July, August and September to January.

[Assistant] At that point, had you begun thinking about what you were going to do when you got your degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it's the summer and then another semester.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So it's the June, July. June, July, August and September to January.

[Assistant] At that point, had you begun thinking about what you were going to do when you got your degree?

[User] Yeah. And I didn't know. I was sort of like, you know, where am I going to get a job or am I going to work? What kind of an office do I want to look at, big office, small office, you know? And I really, really didn't know what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] In '63, '64, was the draft an issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it's the June, July. June, July, August and September to January.

[Assistant] At that point, had you begun thinking about what you were going to do when you got your degree?

[User] Yeah. And I didn't know. I was sort of like, you know, where am I going to get a job or am I going to work? What kind of an office do I want to look at, big office, small office, you know? And I really, really didn't know what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] In '63, '64, was the draft an issue?

[User] The draft was an issue, yeah.

[Assistant] You had been getting deferments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I didn't know. I was sort of like, you know, where am I going to get a job or am I going to work? What kind of an office do I want to look at, big office, small office, you know? And I really, really didn't know what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] In '63, '64, was the draft an issue?

[User] The draft was an issue, yeah.

[Assistant] You had been getting deferments?

[User] I'd been getting deferments for school.

[Assistant] At the point when you applied, did you mention it to your family and your friends, you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The draft was an issue, yeah.

[Assistant] You had been getting deferments?

[User] I'd been getting deferments for school.

[Assistant] At the point when you applied, did you mention it to your family and your friends, you recall?

[User] I don't. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

[Assistant] OK. So take the next step.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd been getting deferments for school.

[Assistant] At the point when you applied, did you mention it to your family and your friends, you recall?

[User] I don't. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

[Assistant] OK. So take the next step.

[User] OK, so the next step, you know, I go to work during the summer. I come back to school in the fall. I don't remember if it was during the summer or during the fall, but I got a letter from Peace Corps. And it said, thank you for taking the test. We know you did it. Oh, we're so sorry, we've lost it. If you're interested, would you, you know, reapply in the application and you know. I'm thinking, oh god, what a crummy organization this is. You know, it's the government. And at that point I said, oh, I don't know, you know? And I just forgot about it. And then sometimes, and then so I go back to school. And then sometime in the fall, I get another letter for Peace Corps. It says, congratulations, you've been accepted. Didn't even mention having lost it before. You've been accepted. We've got a program starting up for architects and engineers to go to Colombia, and training is going to start right after my graduation, like February '66. Would you be interested? Well, yeah, I think I'm interested. I don't know what else I'm going to do.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't have, it wasn't like you were choosing Peace Corps over two or three other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

[Assistant] OK. So take the next step.

[User] OK, so the next step, you know, I go to work during the summer. I come back to school in the fall. I don't remember if it was during the summer or during the fall, but I got a letter from Peace Corps. And it said, thank you for taking the test. We know you did it. Oh, we're so sorry, we've lost it. If you're interested, would you, you know, reapply in the application and you know. I'm thinking, oh god, what a crummy organization this is. You know, it's the government. And at that point I said, oh, I don't know, you know? And I just forgot about it. And then sometimes, and then so I go back to school. And then sometime in the fall, I get another letter for Peace Corps. It says, congratulations, you've been accepted. Didn't even mention having lost it before. You've been accepted. We've got a program starting up for architects and engineers to go to Colombia, and training is going to start right after my graduation, like February '66. Would you be interested? Well, yeah, I think I'm interested. I don't know what else I'm going to do.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't have, it wasn't like you were choosing Peace Corps over two or three other?

[User] No, no. I hadn't even started to look, you know, I hadn't even thought about looking for a job or where to look.

[Assistant] So at that point, you must have told people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, so the next step, you know, I go to work during the summer. I come back to school in the fall. I don't remember if it was during the summer or during the fall, but I got a letter from Peace Corps. And it said, thank you for taking the test. We know you did it. Oh, we're so sorry, we've lost it. If you're interested, would you, you know, reapply in the application and you know. I'm thinking, oh god, what a crummy organization this is. You know, it's the government. And at that point I said, oh, I don't know, you know? And I just forgot about it. And then sometimes, and then so I go back to school. And then sometime in the fall, I get another letter for Peace Corps. It says, congratulations, you've been accepted. Didn't even mention having lost it before. You've been accepted. We've got a program starting up for architects and engineers to go to Colombia, and training is going to start right after my graduation, like February '66. Would you be interested? Well, yeah, I think I'm interested. I don't know what else I'm going to do.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't have, it wasn't like you were choosing Peace Corps over two or three other?

[User] No, no. I hadn't even started to look, you know, I hadn't even thought about looking for a job or where to look.

[Assistant] So at that point, you must have told people.

[User] Yeah, then I started telling people, right.

[Assistant] Do you recall their reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I hadn't even started to look, you know, I hadn't even thought about looking for a job or where to look.

[Assistant] So at that point, you must have told people.

[User] Yeah, then I started telling people, right.

[Assistant] Do you recall their reaction?

[User] Yeah, my mother's reaction was kind of, you're doing what? Where are you going and why are you going to do that and how long are you going to be gone and how far is it and where is it? So that was the big reaction.

[Assistant] And you knew virtually nothing of Colombia at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, then I started telling people, right.

[Assistant] Do you recall their reaction?

[User] Yeah, my mother's reaction was kind of, you're doing what? Where are you going and why are you going to do that and how long are you going to be gone and how far is it and where is it? So that was the big reaction.

[Assistant] And you knew virtually nothing of Colombia at that point.

[User] No. I think I looked at the map and I said, Oh, OK, there it is.

[Assistant] So graduation and then fairly soon thereafter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my mother's reaction was kind of, you're doing what? Where are you going and why are you going to do that and how long are you going to be gone and how far is it and where is it? So that was the big reaction.

[Assistant] And you knew virtually nothing of Colombia at that point.

[User] No. I think I looked at the map and I said, Oh, OK, there it is.

[Assistant] So graduation and then fairly soon thereafter.

[User] Yeah, fairly soon after. Actually, I didn't go to graduation because they didn't have a, they didn't have a winter graduation. They had a they had one in the summer for everybody for the year. And you come back and I never got the graduation. Yes. And then we started training in February.

[Assistant] And where was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think I looked at the map and I said, Oh, OK, there it is.

[Assistant] So graduation and then fairly soon thereafter.

[User] Yeah, fairly soon after. Actually, I didn't go to graduation because they didn't have a, they didn't have a winter graduation. They had a they had one in the summer for everybody for the year. And you come back and I never got the graduation. Yes. And then we started training in February.

[Assistant] And where was that?

[User] And that was in Los Angeles State. LA State in LA. California State University in Los Angeles. And I'm trying to remember what. But anyway, it was in Los Angeles and the training was there.

[Assistant] Were you remember reporting for training? You must have flown out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, fairly soon after. Actually, I didn't go to graduation because they didn't have a, they didn't have a winter graduation. They had a they had one in the summer for everybody for the year. And you come back and I never got the graduation. Yes. And then we started training in February.

[Assistant] And where was that?

[User] And that was in Los Angeles State. LA State in LA. California State University in Los Angeles. And I'm trying to remember what. But anyway, it was in Los Angeles and the training was there.

[Assistant] Were you remember reporting for training? You must have flown out.

[User] Oh yeah, no, I do. That was the first time I was on a jet I think. Flew out to Los Angeles, had directions where to go, and everybody met in front of or at a hotel and somewhere in downtown LA.

[Assistant] Not on the campus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was in Los Angeles State. LA State in LA. California State University in Los Angeles. And I'm trying to remember what. But anyway, it was in Los Angeles and the training was there.

[Assistant] Were you remember reporting for training? You must have flown out.

[User] Oh yeah, no, I do. That was the first time I was on a jet I think. Flew out to Los Angeles, had directions where to go, and everybody met in front of or at a hotel and somewhere in downtown LA.

[Assistant] Not on the campus?

[User] Not on the campus. Then we all got bused to.

[Assistant] About how many at that point were in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, no, I do. That was the first time I was on a jet I think. Flew out to Los Angeles, had directions where to go, and everybody met in front of or at a hotel and somewhere in downtown LA.

[Assistant] Not on the campus?

[User] Not on the campus. Then we all got bused to.

[Assistant] About how many at that point were in the group?

[User] Well, there were two groups. We actually trained. I'm trying to remember. There were maybe there were eight or 10 architects and engineers. And then we also trained with a big group that was going to Venezuela in physical education. So we were together. I mean, we lived together. We did Spanish and the meals and all sorts of activities together. In our specialized training we were apart.

[Assistant] So it was a relatively small group that you were with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not on the campus. Then we all got bused to.

[Assistant] About how many at that point were in the group?

[User] Well, there were two groups. We actually trained. I'm trying to remember. There were maybe there were eight or 10 architects and engineers. And then we also trained with a big group that was going to Venezuela in physical education. So we were together. I mean, we lived together. We did Spanish and the meals and all sorts of activities together. In our specialized training we were apart.

[Assistant] So it was a relatively small group that you were with.

[User] I was, yeah, it was a relatively small group.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to the others in the architects and engineers group? I mean, they joined the Peace Corps like you, and you must have made some comparisons.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were two groups. We actually trained. I'm trying to remember. There were maybe there were eight or 10 architects and engineers. And then we also trained with a big group that was going to Venezuela in physical education. So we were together. I mean, we lived together. We did Spanish and the meals and all sorts of activities together. In our specialized training we were apart.

[Assistant] So it was a relatively small group that you were with.

[User] I was, yeah, it was a relatively small group.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to the others in the architects and engineers group? I mean, they joined the Peace Corps like you, and you must have made some comparisons.

[User] Yeah. And I, you know, like for the life of me, I can't remember. I think a lot of it was kind of like, you know, it's sounded like a really good idea. I didn't know what else I was going to do, and it sounded like an opportunity to travel and, you know, go away for a couple of years.

[Assistant] And was that group all male?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, yeah, it was a relatively small group.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to the others in the architects and engineers group? I mean, they joined the Peace Corps like you, and you must have made some comparisons.

[User] Yeah. And I, you know, like for the life of me, I can't remember. I think a lot of it was kind of like, you know, it's sounded like a really good idea. I didn't know what else I was going to do, and it sounded like an opportunity to travel and, you know, go away for a couple of years.

[Assistant] And was that group all male?

[User] The architects and engineers were, yes.

[Assistant] OK. So you're then, do you stay on the campus or do they find, were you would at a training site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I, you know, like for the life of me, I can't remember. I think a lot of it was kind of like, you know, it's sounded like a really good idea. I didn't know what else I was going to do, and it sounded like an opportunity to travel and, you know, go away for a couple of years.

[Assistant] And was that group all male?

[User] The architects and engineers were, yes.

[Assistant] OK. So you're then, do you stay on the campus or do they find, were you would at a training site?

[User] No, we were on. We were on the campus, actually. We lived, they had an, there was an apartment complex that the Peace Corps had rented and we people roomed together in the apartment complex. That was kind of kind of fun. I mean, here you are. You're in California. It's February. Sun is shining, it's warm. You got a swimming pool on the complex. And then it was a walk to the campus. I remember now. The campus was on one side of this kind of a valley and the apartment complex was on the other side. So that was a nice downhill and back uphill walk. I don't know how long it took, maybe 15, 20 minutes.

[Assistant] Do you recall who ran the program? Was it LA State?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The architects and engineers were, yes.

[Assistant] OK. So you're then, do you stay on the campus or do they find, were you would at a training site?

[User] No, we were on. We were on the campus, actually. We lived, they had an, there was an apartment complex that the Peace Corps had rented and we people roomed together in the apartment complex. That was kind of kind of fun. I mean, here you are. You're in California. It's February. Sun is shining, it's warm. You got a swimming pool on the complex. And then it was a walk to the campus. I remember now. The campus was on one side of this kind of a valley and the apartment complex was on the other side. So that was a nice downhill and back uphill walk. I don't know how long it took, maybe 15, 20 minutes.

[Assistant] Do you recall who ran the program? Was it LA State?

[User] It was LA State as far as I remember. Yeah, it was the university we were at.

[Assistant] So usually training has several components. It would have been different in your case. One, of course, would be language training. So let's start by talking about that and how that was organized.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were on. We were on the campus, actually. We lived, they had an, there was an apartment complex that the Peace Corps had rented and we people roomed together in the apartment complex. That was kind of kind of fun. I mean, here you are. You're in California. It's February. Sun is shining, it's warm. You got a swimming pool on the complex. And then it was a walk to the campus. I remember now. The campus was on one side of this kind of a valley and the apartment complex was on the other side. So that was a nice downhill and back uphill walk. I don't know how long it took, maybe 15, 20 minutes.

[Assistant] Do you recall who ran the program? Was it LA State?

[User] It was LA State as far as I remember. Yeah, it was the university we were at.

[Assistant] So usually training has several components. It would have been different in your case. One, of course, would be language training. So let's start by talking about that and how that was organized.

[User] It seemed like all we did was have language training. I mean, there was it was so intensive and there was so much of it. Every day, I mean, we had. There was classroom instruction, there was the language labs of course. We had meals where we were only supposed to speak Spanish. And so those were the.

[Assistant] Who were the instructors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was LA State as far as I remember. Yeah, it was the university we were at.

[Assistant] So usually training has several components. It would have been different in your case. One, of course, would be language training. So let's start by talking about that and how that was organized.

[User] It seemed like all we did was have language training. I mean, there was it was so intensive and there was so much of it. Every day, I mean, we had. There was classroom instruction, there was the language labs of course. We had meals where we were only supposed to speak Spanish. And so those were the.

[Assistant] Who were the instructors?

[User] As far as I know, there were, if I'm going to remember, they were university instructors.

[Assistant] Not necessarily Colombians or Venezuelans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seemed like all we did was have language training. I mean, there was it was so intensive and there was so much of it. Every day, I mean, we had. There was classroom instruction, there was the language labs of course. We had meals where we were only supposed to speak Spanish. And so those were the.

[Assistant] Who were the instructors?

[User] As far as I know, there were, if I'm going to remember, they were university instructors.

[Assistant] Not necessarily Colombians or Venezuelans.

[User] No, not necessarily. But I remember at least one, one was a native Spanish speaker.

[Assistant] Right. So in going into the language training, does the training staff make it apparent that your getting into the Peace Corps would depend on your ability with the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as I know, there were, if I'm going to remember, they were university instructors.

[Assistant] Not necessarily Colombians or Venezuelans.

[User] No, not necessarily. But I remember at least one, one was a native Spanish speaker.

[Assistant] Right. So in going into the language training, does the training staff make it apparent that your getting into the Peace Corps would depend on your ability with the language?

[User] I don't think so. I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that as a criterion for, you know.

[Assistant] And did your previous studies or time in Havana come into of any use?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not necessarily. But I remember at least one, one was a native Spanish speaker.

[Assistant] Right. So in going into the language training, does the training staff make it apparent that your getting into the Peace Corps would depend on your ability with the language?

[User] I don't think so. I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that as a criterion for, you know.

[Assistant] And did your previous studies or time in Havana come into of any use?

[User] It, you know, it probably did, but I can't say for sure.

[Assistant] Felt like going from square one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that as a criterion for, you know.

[Assistant] And did your previous studies or time in Havana come into of any use?

[User] It, you know, it probably did, but I can't say for sure.

[Assistant] Felt like going from square one.

[User] From square one, I mean, what I found out subsequent to that is when I finally came home and then went out to the world and started working and started traveling that I've got a facility for foreign language.

[Assistant] So the language component was intensive and took up a good part of each day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It, you know, it probably did, but I can't say for sure.

[Assistant] Felt like going from square one.

[User] From square one, I mean, what I found out subsequent to that is when I finally came home and then went out to the world and started working and started traveling that I've got a facility for foreign language.

[Assistant] So the language component was intensive and took up a good part of each day.

[User] I think we were in a language lab, probably for, I know it seemed like a couple of hours each day.

[Assistant] Pretty much concentrating on conversation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From square one, I mean, what I found out subsequent to that is when I finally came home and then went out to the world and started working and started traveling that I've got a facility for foreign language.

[Assistant] So the language component was intensive and took up a good part of each day.

[User] I think we were in a language lab, probably for, I know it seemed like a couple of hours each day.

[Assistant] Pretty much concentrating on conversation?

[User] Conversation. Yeah. Well, reading. I don't remember about writing, but certainly reading and comprehension and conversation.

[Assistant] Did your group work by itself in a lab and then the Venezuelans were elsewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were in a language lab, probably for, I know it seemed like a couple of hours each day.

[Assistant] Pretty much concentrating on conversation?

[User] Conversation. Yeah. Well, reading. I don't remember about writing, but certainly reading and comprehension and conversation.

[Assistant] Did your group work by itself in a lab and then the Venezuelans were elsewhere?

[User] No, I think we're all, yeah, it was all mixed in.

[Assistant] It was all mixed in. And what else went on at LA State then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think we're all, yeah, it was all mixed in.

[Assistant] It was all mixed in. And what else went on at LA State then?

[User] Aside from the language?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Well, we had a lot of physical exercise, physical training. We had what then was called circuit training. We did a lot of that. You know, you move around. We were out in the field and you move from exercise to exercise. I mean, we did a lot of that stuff. Various exercises. We didn't have the kind of equipment that we have now. I mean, there were weights and ropes and all kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] Did anyone try to define what it was, why you were doing the things you were doing? Say this is part of you need this for what's going to happen now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Aside from the language?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Well, we had a lot of physical exercise, physical training. We had what then was called circuit training. We did a lot of that. You know, you move around. We were out in the field and you move from exercise to exercise. I mean, we did a lot of that stuff. Various exercises. We didn't have the kind of equipment that we have now. I mean, there were weights and ropes and all kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] Did anyone try to define what it was, why you were doing the things you were doing? Say this is part of you need this for what's going to happen now.

[User] I mean, aside from the well, I mean, well. Let me tell you a little bit about the other kinds of things that went on. I mean, there were history classes and culture and about the countries that we were going to, about Colombia. So that was pretty obvious about why you're doing that.

[Assistant] And that off by yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had a lot of physical exercise, physical training. We had what then was called circuit training. We did a lot of that. You know, you move around. We were out in the field and you move from exercise to exercise. I mean, we did a lot of that stuff. Various exercises. We didn't have the kind of equipment that we have now. I mean, there were weights and ropes and all kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] Did anyone try to define what it was, why you were doing the things you were doing? Say this is part of you need this for what's going to happen now.

[User] I mean, aside from the well, I mean, well. Let me tell you a little bit about the other kinds of things that went on. I mean, there were history classes and culture and about the countries that we were going to, about Colombia. So that was pretty obvious about why you're doing that.

[Assistant] And that off by yourself.

[User] Yeah, right. The other group was going to Venezuela. And then we also had technology. I don't know what you want to call it. It was kind of like a huge industrial arts class kind of stuff we did, which was kind of fun. We didn't, um. We were all graduates, architects or engineers. I don't think. There may have been a couple of people that maybe had some work experience already.

[Assistant] What, engineer is a generic term, what kind of engineer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, aside from the well, I mean, well. Let me tell you a little bit about the other kinds of things that went on. I mean, there were history classes and culture and about the countries that we were going to, about Colombia. So that was pretty obvious about why you're doing that.

[Assistant] And that off by yourself.

[User] Yeah, right. The other group was going to Venezuela. And then we also had technology. I don't know what you want to call it. It was kind of like a huge industrial arts class kind of stuff we did, which was kind of fun. We didn't, um. We were all graduates, architects or engineers. I don't think. There may have been a couple of people that maybe had some work experience already.

[Assistant] What, engineer is a generic term, what kind of engineer?

[User] Civil engineers, I think mostly, if not all civil engineers, which focus pretty much on construction. And so we did, I mean, we worked with people from LA State who were who taught those kinds of subjects and worked on projects. I mean, we did construction. I mean, we built a brick wall in the lab one day, which was funny. Wasn't that straight, vertically or horizontally.

[Assistant] Well, did you find it demeaning? I mean, didn't you have these skills?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Civil engineers, I think mostly, if not all civil engineers, which focus pretty much on construction. And so we did, I mean, we worked with people from LA State who were who taught those kinds of subjects and worked on projects. I mean, we did construction. I mean, we built a brick wall in the lab one day, which was funny. Wasn't that straight, vertically or horizontally.

[Assistant] Well, did you find it demeaning? I mean, didn't you have these skills?

[User] No, we didn't have. I mean, I'll get off on the education in this country. But you know, because you study civil engineering or study architecture doesn't mean you've got any idea what happens in the field.

[Assistant] OK. OK.

[User] So people that had some field experiences, it was different. But no, but I'd never built anything like that.

[Assistant] So the intent of this was to give you some hands-on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn't have. I mean, I'll get off on the education in this country. But you know, because you study civil engineering or study architecture doesn't mean you've got any idea what happens in the field.

[Assistant] OK. OK.

[User] So people that had some field experiences, it was different. But no, but I'd never built anything like that.

[Assistant] So the intent of this was to give you some hands-on?

[User] Some hands-on, I think, and develop a couple things as I look back, develop an appreciation of really what it takes to do something like that, number one. Also, some team building and test how people work together. Just reactions and when things go right, when things go wrong.

[Assistant] And that spills over to what was always a relatively speaking controversial, the selection process. How did it operate with the eight of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So people that had some field experiences, it was different. But no, but I'd never built anything like that.

[Assistant] So the intent of this was to give you some hands-on?

[User] Some hands-on, I think, and develop a couple things as I look back, develop an appreciation of really what it takes to do something like that, number one. Also, some team building and test how people work together. Just reactions and when things go right, when things go wrong.

[Assistant] And that spills over to what was always a relatively speaking controversial, the selection process. How did it operate with the eight of you?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] I mean, you are aware of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some hands-on, I think, and develop a couple things as I look back, develop an appreciation of really what it takes to do something like that, number one. Also, some team building and test how people work together. Just reactions and when things go right, when things go wrong.

[Assistant] And that spills over to what was always a relatively speaking controversial, the selection process. How did it operate with the eight of you?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] I mean, you are aware of it.

[User] Oh, it was. Yeah, no. We were aware of the fact that there was a selection process and, you know, people were looking at what we were doing and how we were doing it. Criteria, etcetera.

[Assistant] Did you have to go see psychiatrists or was there psychological?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was. Yeah, no. We were aware of the fact that there was a selection process and, you know, people were looking at what we were doing and how we were doing it. Criteria, etcetera.

[Assistant] Did you have to go see psychiatrists or was there psychological?

[User] We had, we had group meetings with the shrink.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And everybody, we used to really laugh at those. We thought they were really funny.

[Assistant] The group's small enough that it must have begun to coalesce as a group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had, we had group meetings with the shrink.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And everybody, we used to really laugh at those. We thought they were really funny.

[Assistant] The group's small enough that it must have begun to coalesce as a group.

[User] Yeah. And I'm trying to remember if part of it was just our group or if it was the bigger group, you know, everybody together. I just don't remember how those meetings worked. But I think once, once a week, maybe we met with the. We would always walk out there scratching our heads because it was kind of like, so how is your week? So what problems came out or what are the major issues? Huh, what, we don't have any problems.

[Assistant] Do you recall if they asked you to do peer ratings? Because that's one of the things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And everybody, we used to really laugh at those. We thought they were really funny.

[Assistant] The group's small enough that it must have begun to coalesce as a group.

[User] Yeah. And I'm trying to remember if part of it was just our group or if it was the bigger group, you know, everybody together. I just don't remember how those meetings worked. But I think once, once a week, maybe we met with the. We would always walk out there scratching our heads because it was kind of like, so how is your week? So what problems came out or what are the major issues? Huh, what, we don't have any problems.

[Assistant] Do you recall if they asked you to do peer ratings? Because that's one of the things.

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] Two things. Well, another component of training, which I think it was still in place. It was called ASWAC. American Studies, World Affairs, Communism. Sort of a crash course in American history and the Cold War and supposedly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I'm trying to remember if part of it was just our group or if it was the bigger group, you know, everybody together. I just don't remember how those meetings worked. But I think once, once a week, maybe we met with the. We would always walk out there scratching our heads because it was kind of like, so how is your week? So what problems came out or what are the major issues? Huh, what, we don't have any problems.

[Assistant] Do you recall if they asked you to do peer ratings? Because that's one of the things.

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] Two things. Well, another component of training, which I think it was still in place. It was called ASWAC. American Studies, World Affairs, Communism. Sort of a crash course in American history and the Cold War and supposedly.

[User] That I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. They may have dropped it by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember that at all.

[Assistant] Two things. Well, another component of training, which I think it was still in place. It was called ASWAC. American Studies, World Affairs, Communism. Sort of a crash course in American history and the Cold War and supposedly.

[User] That I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. They may have dropped it by then.

[User] Yeah, I mean, a couple of the things that we did that were really interesting. Well, when we got our hands dirty, I mean, we actually build an outhouse, which I thought was kind of fun and funny. I mean, we are out there hammering together two by fours and sheets of plywood and stuff. One of the other things that we did is we went to Baja for a weekend, the architects and engineers. We went to Baja for a weekend to a small town called Catorce, fourteen, I guess, because it was 14 kilometers from someplace, I don't know. To just sort of, you know, experience what it was like to live in a rural Spanish speaking village with, you know, dirt floors and all this stuff that people were doing for themselves. It was a great time.

[Assistant] But you were still living together as a group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I don't remember at all.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. They may have dropped it by then.

[User] Yeah, I mean, a couple of the things that we did that were really interesting. Well, when we got our hands dirty, I mean, we actually build an outhouse, which I thought was kind of fun and funny. I mean, we are out there hammering together two by fours and sheets of plywood and stuff. One of the other things that we did is we went to Baja for a weekend, the architects and engineers. We went to Baja for a weekend to a small town called Catorce, fourteen, I guess, because it was 14 kilometers from someplace, I don't know. To just sort of, you know, experience what it was like to live in a rural Spanish speaking village with, you know, dirt floors and all this stuff that people were doing for themselves. It was a great time.

[Assistant] But you were still living together as a group?

[User] Yeah, we were there as a group.

[Assistant] Did you have much chance to use your Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were there as a group.

[Assistant] Did you have much chance to use your Spanish?

[User] Yeah. Well, we tried. I mean, because the people there didn't speak English, so we had to speak Spanish.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I remember there was an American there who lived in the community. I don't remember if he was a minister, an older guy who had lived there for years and years and was sort of like helping in the community as kind of a community development kind of a person. I don't remember what organization he was with. So he spoke English. And of course, the people that were with us spoke English and Spanish.

[Assistant] This whole period, how long was this period at L.A. State?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, we tried. I mean, because the people there didn't speak English, so we had to speak Spanish.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I remember there was an American there who lived in the community. I don't remember if he was a minister, an older guy who had lived there for years and years and was sort of like helping in the community as kind of a community development kind of a person. I don't remember what organization he was with. So he spoke English. And of course, the people that were with us spoke English and Spanish.

[Assistant] This whole period, how long was this period at L.A. State?

[User] Let me see. We start February, March, April, maybe was it two.

[Assistant] Over two months.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember there was an American there who lived in the community. I don't remember if he was a minister, an older guy who had lived there for years and years and was sort of like helping in the community as kind of a community development kind of a person. I don't remember what organization he was with. So he spoke English. And of course, the people that were with us spoke English and Spanish.

[Assistant] This whole period, how long was this period at L.A. State?

[User] Let me see. We start February, March, April, maybe was it two.

[Assistant] Over two months.

[User] Two months and then we went to Puerto Rico too.

[Assistant] Ok, before you get to Puerto Rico. During that two months, was there anyone from Peace Corps Washington or Peace Corps Colombia who visited and said, this is what the program, this is what you'll be doing when you get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me see. We start February, March, April, maybe was it two.

[Assistant] Over two months.

[User] Two months and then we went to Puerto Rico too.

[Assistant] Ok, before you get to Puerto Rico. During that two months, was there anyone from Peace Corps Washington or Peace Corps Colombia who visited and said, this is what the program, this is what you'll be doing when you get there?

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think some somehow we had a sense that we'd be working in local or regional offices of some kind doing working as a resource.

[Assistant] So even though you're doing these team building activities, you were not going to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two months and then we went to Puerto Rico too.

[Assistant] Ok, before you get to Puerto Rico. During that two months, was there anyone from Peace Corps Washington or Peace Corps Colombia who visited and said, this is what the program, this is what you'll be doing when you get there?

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think some somehow we had a sense that we'd be working in local or regional offices of some kind doing working as a resource.

[Assistant] So even though you're doing these team building activities, you were not going to go.

[User] No, we were not going. No. We were going individually to someplace.

[Assistant] And that may have simply been underhanded selection process. Who knows?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think some somehow we had a sense that we'd be working in local or regional offices of some kind doing working as a resource.

[Assistant] So even though you're doing these team building activities, you were not going to go.

[User] No, we were not going. No. We were going individually to someplace.

[Assistant] And that may have simply been underhanded selection process. Who knows?

[User] Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call them overt team building. Besides the way we think of it today, I mean, we are just trying to work together to get stuff done.

[Assistant] So this phase ends, is there a selection board that meets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were not going. No. We were going individually to someplace.

[Assistant] And that may have simply been underhanded selection process. Who knows?

[User] Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call them overt team building. Besides the way we think of it today, I mean, we are just trying to work together to get stuff done.

[Assistant] So this phase ends, is there a selection board that meets?

[User] I, you know, I think there was because I don't, I remember a couple of people that got deselected and didn't go to Puerto Rico. And all of us that went to Puerto Rico then went in country.

[Assistant] Those who weren't deselected, those who went on. Was there any protest, any concern? I mean, it must have been.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call them overt team building. Besides the way we think of it today, I mean, we are just trying to work together to get stuff done.

[Assistant] So this phase ends, is there a selection board that meets?

[User] I, you know, I think there was because I don't, I remember a couple of people that got deselected and didn't go to Puerto Rico. And all of us that went to Puerto Rico then went in country.

[Assistant] Those who weren't deselected, those who went on. Was there any protest, any concern? I mean, it must have been.

[User] There was a lot of head scratching about how, you know, why did? We don't get it. We don't understand why.

[Assistant] And nobody gave you an answer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, you know, I think there was because I don't, I remember a couple of people that got deselected and didn't go to Puerto Rico. And all of us that went to Puerto Rico then went in country.

[Assistant] Those who weren't deselected, those who went on. Was there any protest, any concern? I mean, it must have been.

[User] There was a lot of head scratching about how, you know, why did? We don't get it. We don't understand why.

[Assistant] And nobody gave you an answer?

[User] I don't even remember if the question was asked, or if it was the asked we probably didn't get a straight answer.

[Assistant] So now you finished at LA State. Do you have a chance to come home at all or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a lot of head scratching about how, you know, why did? We don't get it. We don't understand why.

[Assistant] And nobody gave you an answer?

[User] I don't even remember if the question was asked, or if it was the asked we probably didn't get a straight answer.

[Assistant] So now you finished at LA State. Do you have a chance to come home at all or?

[User] Yeah, I came home first.

[Assistant] And at this point, any second thoughts or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even remember if the question was asked, or if it was the asked we probably didn't get a straight answer.

[Assistant] So now you finished at LA State. Do you have a chance to come home at all or?

[User] Yeah, I came home first.

[Assistant] And at this point, any second thoughts or?

[User] No. No, ready to go.

[Assistant] And was the expectation after you finished it, Puerto Rico, you'd be going straight to Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I came home first.

[Assistant] And at this point, any second thoughts or?

[User] No. No, ready to go.

[Assistant] And was the expectation after you finished it, Puerto Rico, you'd be going straight to Colombia.

[User] Oh yeah, right.

[Assistant] So this visit, then you're sort of preparing to be overseas for a while. Was it a traumatic farewell or how did the family and friends go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, ready to go.

[Assistant] And was the expectation after you finished it, Puerto Rico, you'd be going straight to Colombia.

[User] Oh yeah, right.

[Assistant] So this visit, then you're sort of preparing to be overseas for a while. Was it a traumatic farewell or how did the family and friends go?

[User] No, I don't know if there was trauma. It wasn't traumatic for me. I know my folks had a party and it was, I don't remember. That must have been what it was. Yeah, I invited all the family and got together and had supper and, you know, dinner and what are you doing? Where are you going to go? You know, all the usual kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] So you stood up and gave a bar mitzvah speech in Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, right.

[Assistant] So this visit, then you're sort of preparing to be overseas for a while. Was it a traumatic farewell or how did the family and friends go?

[User] No, I don't know if there was trauma. It wasn't traumatic for me. I know my folks had a party and it was, I don't remember. That must have been what it was. Yeah, I invited all the family and got together and had supper and, you know, dinner and what are you doing? Where are you going to go? You know, all the usual kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] So you stood up and gave a bar mitzvah speech in Spanish?

[User] Yeah, yeah, right. In Spanish.

[Assistant] Let's talk about Puerto Rico then and now. It's just six of you at this point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't know if there was trauma. It wasn't traumatic for me. I know my folks had a party and it was, I don't remember. That must have been what it was. Yeah, I invited all the family and got together and had supper and, you know, dinner and what are you doing? Where are you going to go? You know, all the usual kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] So you stood up and gave a bar mitzvah speech in Spanish?

[User] Yeah, yeah, right. In Spanish.

[Assistant] Let's talk about Puerto Rico then and now. It's just six of you at this point.

[User] I think, yeah. I've got on my hand six, six or seven of us. I don't remember the exact number.

[Assistant] And you're still as a group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, right. In Spanish.

[Assistant] Let's talk about Puerto Rico then and now. It's just six of you at this point.

[User] I think, yeah. I've got on my hand six, six or seven of us. I don't remember the exact number.

[Assistant] And you're still as a group?

[User] We're still as a group.

[Assistant] So architects and engineers for Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, yeah. I've got on my hand six, six or seven of us. I don't remember the exact number.

[Assistant] And you're still as a group?

[User] We're still as a group.

[Assistant] So architects and engineers for Colombia.

[User] Yeah. And then the people from Venezuela also went to Puerto Rico, too. So we stayed together in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Describe the Puerto Rico experience then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're still as a group.

[Assistant] So architects and engineers for Colombia.

[User] Yeah. And then the people from Venezuela also went to Puerto Rico, too. So we stayed together in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Describe the Puerto Rico experience then.

[User] Really interesting. A lot of fun. I think there are two components to the Puerto Rico experience. One was the camp, the training camp, and the other one was actually going and living with Puerto Rican families for, I don't remember if it was a week or, but the two volunteers were assigned to go live with a, well. In my case, there were two of us. I think it was two.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that had been arranged by the training staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then the people from Venezuela also went to Puerto Rico, too. So we stayed together in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. Describe the Puerto Rico experience then.

[User] Really interesting. A lot of fun. I think there are two components to the Puerto Rico experience. One was the camp, the training camp, and the other one was actually going and living with Puerto Rican families for, I don't remember if it was a week or, but the two volunteers were assigned to go live with a, well. In my case, there were two of us. I think it was two.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that had been arranged by the training staff?

[User] They had had been arranged by the training staff, to live with Puerto Rican families in small towns right around the area.

[Assistant] Talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really interesting. A lot of fun. I think there are two components to the Puerto Rico experience. One was the camp, the training camp, and the other one was actually going and living with Puerto Rican families for, I don't remember if it was a week or, but the two volunteers were assigned to go live with a, well. In my case, there were two of us. I think it was two.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that had been arranged by the training staff?

[User] They had had been arranged by the training staff, to live with Puerto Rican families in small towns right around the area.

[Assistant] Talk about that.

[User] The idea again was, you know, immersion in the culture, in the language, and also to just to meet people, see what kinds of projects were going on. I know at that time there was a big project in Puerto Rico for building small houses that were concrete block or poured concrete. I think they were block. But anyway, very much community based community development kinds of projects. The community would get together. I think it was the community that got together and built. The government provided materials and things, and they built these small homes.

[Assistant] So the village you went to, was it just the two of you or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had had been arranged by the training staff, to live with Puerto Rican families in small towns right around the area.

[Assistant] Talk about that.

[User] The idea again was, you know, immersion in the culture, in the language, and also to just to meet people, see what kinds of projects were going on. I know at that time there was a big project in Puerto Rico for building small houses that were concrete block or poured concrete. I think they were block. But anyway, very much community based community development kinds of projects. The community would get together. I think it was the community that got together and built. The government provided materials and things, and they built these small homes.

[Assistant] So the village you went to, was it just the two of you or?

[User] No, I think it was just the two of us.

[Assistant] And did you have to get yourself there on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The idea again was, you know, immersion in the culture, in the language, and also to just to meet people, see what kinds of projects were going on. I know at that time there was a big project in Puerto Rico for building small houses that were concrete block or poured concrete. I think they were block. But anyway, very much community based community development kinds of projects. The community would get together. I think it was the community that got together and built. The government provided materials and things, and they built these small homes.

[Assistant] So the village you went to, was it just the two of you or?

[User] No, I think it was just the two of us.

[Assistant] And did you have to get yourself there on your own?

[User] No, I think we were, they were dropped off. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being with the family, how did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think it was just the two of us.

[Assistant] And did you have to get yourself there on your own?

[User] No, I think we were, they were dropped off. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being with the family, how did that go?

[User] That went fine. I don't remember that much about the family, but I remember the coffee was amazing. And I said, oh, so this is what coffee is like. OK. Similar experience to going to Germany and saying, oh, this is what beer is like.

[Assistant] So you had the village. Was it about two-week village stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think we were, they were dropped off. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] What was your reaction to being with the family, how did that go?

[User] That went fine. I don't remember that much about the family, but I remember the coffee was amazing. And I said, oh, so this is what coffee is like. OK. Similar experience to going to Germany and saying, oh, this is what beer is like.

[Assistant] So you had the village. Was it about two-week village stay?

[User] Yeah, I think it was about two weeks. And we lived in this town with this family and then every day we would get picked up by a staff person. I think they were Puerto Rican, I can't remember his name. But we got, you know, we sort of got a kind of an orientation to what was going on in the communities, what kind of programs were happening, how things were organized. You know, we met some local muckety- mucks and just kind of got acclimated.

[Assistant] Was there any formal language training going on there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That went fine. I don't remember that much about the family, but I remember the coffee was amazing. And I said, oh, so this is what coffee is like. OK. Similar experience to going to Germany and saying, oh, this is what beer is like.

[Assistant] So you had the village. Was it about two-week village stay?

[User] Yeah, I think it was about two weeks. And we lived in this town with this family and then every day we would get picked up by a staff person. I think they were Puerto Rican, I can't remember his name. But we got, you know, we sort of got a kind of an orientation to what was going on in the communities, what kind of programs were happening, how things were organized. You know, we met some local muckety- mucks and just kind of got acclimated.

[Assistant] Was there any formal language training going on there?

[User] Not during those two weeks. There was there was formal language training in the training camp. Several hours a day we would meet.

[Assistant] And what would be talked about in the training camp experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think it was about two weeks. And we lived in this town with this family and then every day we would get picked up by a staff person. I think they were Puerto Rican, I can't remember his name. But we got, you know, we sort of got a kind of an orientation to what was going on in the communities, what kind of programs were happening, how things were organized. You know, we met some local muckety- mucks and just kind of got acclimated.

[Assistant] Was there any formal language training going on there?

[User] Not during those two weeks. There was there was formal language training in the training camp. Several hours a day we would meet.

[Assistant] And what would be talked about in the training camp experience?

[User] Again, that was a real mix of, I mean, it was like going to summer camp. A lot more intense. You know, it was up in the morning. I don't know what time we got in the morning, six o'clock, and there was a mile run or something like that, you know. And breakfast and of course, doing our own, you know, we had army mess kits. I remember that. And so then, you know, I guess it was just like, I wasn't in the army, but I guess it was just like being in the army. When you're done with your meal, you went out and you did the dunk and the three, you know, washed your own stuff up and everything. And we. So it was very intense language training in the camp. There was also a lot of physical activity. We did a lot of swimming.

[Assistant] Was that the drown proofing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Again, that was a real mix of, I mean, it was like going to summer camp. A lot more intense. You know, it was up in the morning. I don't know what time we got in the morning, six o'clock, and there was a mile run or something like that, you know. And breakfast and of course, doing our own, you know, we had army mess kits. I remember that. And so then, you know, I guess it was just like, I wasn't in the army, but I guess it was just like being in the army. When you're done with your meal, you went out and you did the dunk and the three, you know, washed your own stuff up and everything. And we. So it was very intense language training in the camp. There was also a lot of physical activity. We did a lot of swimming.

[Assistant] Was that the drown proofing?

[User] I was just going to say the drown proofing. And the runs every morning.

[Assistant] Rock climbing?

[User] We did. Yeah. Oh, the rock climbing. Yeah, that was an interesting experience too, rock climbing.

[Assistant] What about people who couldn't handle this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. Yeah. Oh, the rock climbing. Yeah, that was an interesting experience too, rock climbing.

[Assistant] What about people who couldn't handle this?

[User] I don't think there was anybody that couldn't really handle it. I mean, the instructors were really great, the ones that we had. I mean, I had a great. I had a very difficult time climbing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But they were really good. I mean, very, very encouraging. And you know, and I think everybody, everybody did it, made it.

[Assistant] Were the instructors former volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think there was anybody that couldn't really handle it. I mean, the instructors were really great, the ones that we had. I mean, I had a great. I had a very difficult time climbing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But they were really good. I mean, very, very encouraging. And you know, and I think everybody, everybody did it, made it.

[Assistant] Were the instructors former volunteers?

[User] We did have a, there was a native Colombian, funny guy, who was in the camp with language training and an instructor, and he'd been an airline pilot. Regaled us with all sorts of wonderful stories about crashing DC3s in the jungle and walking away, you know. It's going to be wonderful.

[Assistant] So did anyone on the training staff at the camp try to justify or explain why it was you were going through that particular kind of discipline of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they were really good. I mean, very, very encouraging. And you know, and I think everybody, everybody did it, made it.

[Assistant] Were the instructors former volunteers?

[User] We did have a, there was a native Colombian, funny guy, who was in the camp with language training and an instructor, and he'd been an airline pilot. Regaled us with all sorts of wonderful stories about crashing DC3s in the jungle and walking away, you know. It's going to be wonderful.

[Assistant] So did anyone on the training staff at the camp try to justify or explain why it was you were going through that particular kind of discipline of training?

[User] I don't remember that.

[Assistant] It was just assumed that that's what Peace Corps was all about?