[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know anything about it. I didn't even know where it was, unlike today with the Fiji water. But that's a whole other issue. And we drank local water out of the creeks mixed with the special stuff called yanqona or kava, which will kill anything in it. And I drank that for two years and have a hardened stomach.

[Assistant] So you applied and you get this invitation to go to Fiji. What did your, what kind of reaction did you get from your friends and family? What do they think about you going into the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I'm pretty sure, well, my parents were supportive. My father being in the military, he encouraged me to join the Peace Corps. Interesting point is that the military and the Peace Corps have the same mission. It's peace, just different ways of achieving it. So he encouraged me to go and dropped me off at the airport with my guitar slung over my shoulder and my cowboy hat. I’m sure I was a spectacle to the people in Fiji when I arrived.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of training before taking off or where did you guys do your training?

[User] Well, we staged in San Francisco for a few days, but that was just to get kind of the basics down. And then it was a two month in-country training in Fiji, including a one or two week immersion in a village. And that was the best part of all.

[Assistant] So it was a village stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm pretty sure, well, my parents were supportive. My father being in the military, he encouraged me to join the Peace Corps. Interesting point is that the military and the Peace Corps have the same mission. It's peace, just different ways of achieving it. So he encouraged me to go and dropped me off at the airport with my guitar slung over my shoulder and my cowboy hat. I’m sure I was a spectacle to the people in Fiji when I arrived.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of training before taking off or where did you guys do your training?

[User] Well, we staged in San Francisco for a few days, but that was just to get kind of the basics down. And then it was a two month in-country training in Fiji, including a one or two week immersion in a village. And that was the best part of all.

[Assistant] So it was a village stay?

[User] Yeah, the village stay. Because if you didn't speak the language, you didn't speak. And I like to talk, so I got up to speed pretty quickly.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, your impression when you when you first landed in the country? Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we staged in San Francisco for a few days, but that was just to get kind of the basics down. And then it was a two month in-country training in Fiji, including a one or two week immersion in a village. And that was the best part of all.

[Assistant] So it was a village stay?

[User] Yeah, the village stay. Because if you didn't speak the language, you didn't speak. And I like to talk, so I got up to speed pretty quickly.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, your impression when you when you first landed in the country? Do you remember that?

[User] Oh, yeah, I thought the plane had been misdirected to India because as I stepped out, everything was Indian from India. Fiji's history is that one hundred years ago, the British indentured a lot of laborers and they now live in a lot of the towns in Fiji. So the airport is in Nadi on the west side of Fiji, an all Indian community. But then they took us to a beautiful beach. It was the same beach used in the movie Return to Paradise, just a gorgeous South Pacific island beach. And I found the biggest stick I could find. And I carried it around with me through the bushes. I was just trekking around because they used to be cannibals and I thought there might still be cannibals there. That was my first impression.

[Assistant] They didn't tell you during orientation that the cannibals were gone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the village stay. Because if you didn't speak the language, you didn't speak. And I like to talk, so I got up to speed pretty quickly.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, your impression when you when you first landed in the country? Do you remember that?

[User] Oh, yeah, I thought the plane had been misdirected to India because as I stepped out, everything was Indian from India. Fiji's history is that one hundred years ago, the British indentured a lot of laborers and they now live in a lot of the towns in Fiji. So the airport is in Nadi on the west side of Fiji, an all Indian community. But then they took us to a beautiful beach. It was the same beach used in the movie Return to Paradise, just a gorgeous South Pacific island beach. And I found the biggest stick I could find. And I carried it around with me through the bushes. I was just trekking around because they used to be cannibals and I thought there might still be cannibals there. That was my first impression.

[Assistant] They didn't tell you during orientation that the cannibals were gone.

[User] Oh, they might have, but I needed to check that out for myself. Second day was a little calmer.

[Assistant] Any memorable experiences in training? So your training and consisted of language and culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I thought the plane had been misdirected to India because as I stepped out, everything was Indian from India. Fiji's history is that one hundred years ago, the British indentured a lot of laborers and they now live in a lot of the towns in Fiji. So the airport is in Nadi on the west side of Fiji, an all Indian community. But then they took us to a beautiful beach. It was the same beach used in the movie Return to Paradise, just a gorgeous South Pacific island beach. And I found the biggest stick I could find. And I carried it around with me through the bushes. I was just trekking around because they used to be cannibals and I thought there might still be cannibals there. That was my first impression.

[Assistant] They didn't tell you during orientation that the cannibals were gone.

[User] Oh, they might have, but I needed to check that out for myself. Second day was a little calmer.

[Assistant] Any memorable experiences in training? So your training and consisted of language and culture.

[User] Culture, yeah. There was only 14 people in our technical group, so it was a small, tight group. What stands out is we used to sit around playing music and playing volleyball. Yeah, but the language training was pretty intensive in the morning and then again in the afternoon. But I always found that after eating a big lunch, you just felt a little sluggish and just couldn't absorb the language as easy as in the morning.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you say the training was about two months and then you started on your job, reported for work. And where was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they might have, but I needed to check that out for myself. Second day was a little calmer.

[Assistant] Any memorable experiences in training? So your training and consisted of language and culture.

[User] Culture, yeah. There was only 14 people in our technical group, so it was a small, tight group. What stands out is we used to sit around playing music and playing volleyball. Yeah, but the language training was pretty intensive in the morning and then again in the afternoon. But I always found that after eating a big lunch, you just felt a little sluggish and just couldn't absorb the language as easy as in the morning.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you say the training was about two months and then you started on your job, reported for work. And where was that?

[User] So I was on the northernmost island in the Fiji group, Vanua Levu, means Long Island. And I was assigned to the Commissioner Northern Division's office. He is the one that oversees administrative and technical issues on the island, roads and bridges, and so on. So I was assigned to the northeastern part of the island to work in villages. And I met with the local chief and his council. And we just sit down and figure out what their needs were, housing or some other civil projects, like a sea landing jetty at one of the health resorts, oh not resorts, a little health station. Yeah, they have health stations scattered around Fiji. Um, so I had a variety of different experiences, building and self-help construction.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And your living situation out there. Did you live in town or in the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was on the northernmost island in the Fiji group, Vanua Levu, means Long Island. And I was assigned to the Commissioner Northern Division's office. He is the one that oversees administrative and technical issues on the island, roads and bridges, and so on. So I was assigned to the northeastern part of the island to work in villages. And I met with the local chief and his council. And we just sit down and figure out what their needs were, housing or some other civil projects, like a sea landing jetty at one of the health resorts, oh not resorts, a little health station. Yeah, they have health stations scattered around Fiji. Um, so I had a variety of different experiences, building and self-help construction.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And your living situation out there. Did you live in town or in the village?

[User] Both. Yeah. We had a nice flat in town. I shared it with another Peace Corps volunteer who worked the other side of the island. That would be Peter. Then so he'd go one way and I'd go the other way and yeah, met back at the house in town in the middle. And a lot of other Peace Corps volunteers came by to visit us as well.

[Assistant] We did.

[User] Yeah. But then in the village, pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] So you would you kind of based in town and you would have excursions out to the village or a few days out of town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both. Yeah. We had a nice flat in town. I shared it with another Peace Corps volunteer who worked the other side of the island. That would be Peter. Then so he'd go one way and I'd go the other way and yeah, met back at the house in town in the middle. And a lot of other Peace Corps volunteers came by to visit us as well.

[Assistant] We did.

[User] Yeah. But then in the village, pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] So you would you kind of based in town and you would have excursions out to the village or a few days out of town?

[User] Yeah. The primary assignment was in the village, but we had the flat in town that we'd come back and regroup. Yes, so two years of that.

[Assistant] Tell me about your interactions and with, uh, with the local folks. So your coworkers were Fijian and Indian, I imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But then in the village, pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] So you would you kind of based in town and you would have excursions out to the village or a few days out of town?

[User] Yeah. The primary assignment was in the village, but we had the flat in town that we'd come back and regroup. Yes, so two years of that.

[Assistant] Tell me about your interactions and with, uh, with the local folks. So your coworkers were Fijian and Indian, I imagine.

[User] Right, yeah, in the government office. Lovely people. Fijians are the most friendly people on Earth, I'd say. But I studied Fijian language, so I really didn't get to know the Hindi half the community quite as much, but, um, two or three houses down from where I lived there, the secretary of the office worked there. And so they kind of took me in, sort of adopted me, if you would. But they spoke perfect English. They even had a typewriter. And so I do my memoirs on a typewriter at their house. And I used to visit them a couple times a week, I think. You know, it's easy to get homesick when you're away, but, you know, boy they just filled in the voids.

[Assistant] So no trouble getting accepted by the local community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The primary assignment was in the village, but we had the flat in town that we'd come back and regroup. Yes, so two years of that.

[Assistant] Tell me about your interactions and with, uh, with the local folks. So your coworkers were Fijian and Indian, I imagine.

[User] Right, yeah, in the government office. Lovely people. Fijians are the most friendly people on Earth, I'd say. But I studied Fijian language, so I really didn't get to know the Hindi half the community quite as much, but, um, two or three houses down from where I lived there, the secretary of the office worked there. And so they kind of took me in, sort of adopted me, if you would. But they spoke perfect English. They even had a typewriter. And so I do my memoirs on a typewriter at their house. And I used to visit them a couple times a week, I think. You know, it's easy to get homesick when you're away, but, you know, boy they just filled in the voids.

[Assistant] So no trouble getting accepted by the local community?

[User] And I also played in the band. So that got me accepted. I played bass guitar. We had a couple of little bands we'd play in town. They didn't have electricity out in the villages. They didn't have telephones, they didn't have TV. They did have newspapers. And they were a little old by the time they got out there. But, uh, but everybody communicated by the coconut wireless, which is just word of mouth and however fast the good stories travel.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So tell me about some of the projects. What are some of the most memorable projects you had out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was originally signed for a housing project, low cost self- help housing projects. So they were cutting down hardwood timbers in the forest, sending them up the river to be milled, and then they'd send them back and we'd build Australian-style construction, which is just exposed framing, no drywall on the inside, metal roofs, no facilities. All the toilets were, you know, pit latrines outside. But because they needed to relocate this one village up from the river, um, actually made a whole development plan for them for a longer-term plan. And I don't know how much of that ever got built. We built the church, we built the first couple of houses and a community hall and then I left. So that was probably the most successful project. You don't really want to hear about the least successful project, do you? Since I brought it up. Well, I had to build a water reservoir for a school that was an elevated tank, but I forgot to line it with waterproof concrete on the inside and the efflorescence just oozed out on the outside. It was the ugliest thing. It looked like a cavern, you know, stalactite sunny outside. I hope my name didn't get associated with that.

[Assistant] You think they were able to salvage it or?

[User] Oh, eventually, yeah. Somebody figured out, put some waterproofing on the inside. But I'm not a civil engineer, we got to do a little bit of everything.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, it sounds like you had a lot of good interaction with the locals.

[User] Oh, I love the people.

[Assistant] And, um. And so you met your wife there also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, eventually, yeah. Somebody figured out, put some waterproofing on the inside. But I'm not a civil engineer, we got to do a little bit of everything.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, it sounds like you had a lot of good interaction with the locals.

[User] Oh, I love the people.

[Assistant] And, um. And so you met your wife there also?

[User] I did, yeah. So like I said, she's Chinese American. She was a teacher on one end of the island. And so I would sometimes visit her on my way up because she lived at the end of the road. And from there we had to take a bus or walk or a horse. So this was back in the mid ‘80s. Oh no, I'm sorry, early ‘80s. ’78 through ’80. So, yeah, they probably come a long way since then.

[Assistant] So the roads at that time were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I love the people.

[Assistant] And, um. And so you met your wife there also?

[User] I did, yeah. So like I said, she's Chinese American. She was a teacher on one end of the island. And so I would sometimes visit her on my way up because she lived at the end of the road. And from there we had to take a bus or walk or a horse. So this was back in the mid ‘80s. Oh no, I'm sorry, early ‘80s. ’78 through ’80. So, yeah, they probably come a long way since then.

[Assistant] So the roads at that time were?

[User] Gravel and very dusty. Yeah, we’d take these open sided busses up and down the island. By the time you get to the end you just covered in dust, couldn’t even see your face. So we'd wear bandanas over our nose and mouth. And that's half the fun. And then eat a bunch of chili peppers on the other end to get your eyes to water and flush all that dirt out.

[Assistant] And describe the island for me a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, yeah. So like I said, she's Chinese American. She was a teacher on one end of the island. And so I would sometimes visit her on my way up because she lived at the end of the road. And from there we had to take a bus or walk or a horse. So this was back in the mid ‘80s. Oh no, I'm sorry, early ‘80s. ’78 through ’80. So, yeah, they probably come a long way since then.

[Assistant] So the roads at that time were?

[User] Gravel and very dusty. Yeah, we’d take these open sided busses up and down the island. By the time you get to the end you just covered in dust, couldn’t even see your face. So we'd wear bandanas over our nose and mouth. And that's half the fun. And then eat a bunch of chili peppers on the other end to get your eyes to water and flush all that dirt out.

[Assistant] And describe the island for me a little bit.

[User] Well, Fiji is composed of anywhere from 300 to 800 islands, depending on the tide. So low tide, you got a lot of islands sticking up, which means they’re reefs, which also means they're extremely hazardous to sailing. But they're volcanic islands, so generally higher in the center. And then they go down to the ocean and are surrounded by coral reef. And some of the best diving in the world there. We used to snorkel a lot and just go swimming. Nice warm water, as you can imagine. But even in the wintertime, it gets cold. They'd be walking around in fur coats in their wintertime.

[Assistant] Yeah, when you when you get acclimated to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gravel and very dusty. Yeah, we’d take these open sided busses up and down the island. By the time you get to the end you just covered in dust, couldn’t even see your face. So we'd wear bandanas over our nose and mouth. And that's half the fun. And then eat a bunch of chili peppers on the other end to get your eyes to water and flush all that dirt out.

[Assistant] And describe the island for me a little bit.

[User] Well, Fiji is composed of anywhere from 300 to 800 islands, depending on the tide. So low tide, you got a lot of islands sticking up, which means they’re reefs, which also means they're extremely hazardous to sailing. But they're volcanic islands, so generally higher in the center. And then they go down to the ocean and are surrounded by coral reef. And some of the best diving in the world there. We used to snorkel a lot and just go swimming. Nice warm water, as you can imagine. But even in the wintertime, it gets cold. They'd be walking around in fur coats in their wintertime.

[Assistant] Yeah, when you when you get acclimated to it.

[User] Yeah, Southern Hemisphere winter. So Christmas was really weird. The warmest time of year is when you get to celebrating Christmas and singing the songs and they love Christmas. The Fijians are mostly Christian, the Indians are half Hindu and half Muslim. And then there's an assortment of Europeans and Chinese or whatever else. But a mix of people.

[Assistant] Did you work with any of the other European people in the area, like the English people or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Fiji is composed of anywhere from 300 to 800 islands, depending on the tide. So low tide, you got a lot of islands sticking up, which means they’re reefs, which also means they're extremely hazardous to sailing. But they're volcanic islands, so generally higher in the center. And then they go down to the ocean and are surrounded by coral reef. And some of the best diving in the world there. We used to snorkel a lot and just go swimming. Nice warm water, as you can imagine. But even in the wintertime, it gets cold. They'd be walking around in fur coats in their wintertime.

[Assistant] Yeah, when you when you get acclimated to it.

[User] Yeah, Southern Hemisphere winter. So Christmas was really weird. The warmest time of year is when you get to celebrating Christmas and singing the songs and they love Christmas. The Fijians are mostly Christian, the Indians are half Hindu and half Muslim. And then there's an assortment of Europeans and Chinese or whatever else. But a mix of people.

[Assistant] Did you work with any of the other European people in the area, like the English people or?

[User] Yeah, we didn't really work together. We more socialized together at the Grand Eastern Hotel, which was the central focus on the island. They had a volunteer program. Um, that's a little different because they got paid. I think we were making 125 dollars subsistence at the time, which was generally enough to buy food. Our local hosts provided the housing in the village. You know, we just slept on a on the map in somebody’s bure, which is a hut. Yeah, so fairly simple living.

[Assistant] Do you think the perception of the local people or the attitude towards Peace Corps was different, might have been different, than towards seeing other Europeans that were there? Did they understand that there was a difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Southern Hemisphere winter. So Christmas was really weird. The warmest time of year is when you get to celebrating Christmas and singing the songs and they love Christmas. The Fijians are mostly Christian, the Indians are half Hindu and half Muslim. And then there's an assortment of Europeans and Chinese or whatever else. But a mix of people.

[Assistant] Did you work with any of the other European people in the area, like the English people or?

[User] Yeah, we didn't really work together. We more socialized together at the Grand Eastern Hotel, which was the central focus on the island. They had a volunteer program. Um, that's a little different because they got paid. I think we were making 125 dollars subsistence at the time, which was generally enough to buy food. Our local hosts provided the housing in the village. You know, we just slept on a on the map in somebody’s bure, which is a hut. Yeah, so fairly simple living.

[Assistant] Do you think the perception of the local people or the attitude towards Peace Corps was different, might have been different, than towards seeing other Europeans that were there? Did they understand that there was a difference?

[User] Um, I think they did. They all knew at least one Peace Corps volunteer that had been there previously. So I was Group 31. So they’d probably been there 10 years prior. And apparently we left, you know, everybody leaves with a good reputation, so they always welcome us back. Um, but the perception, the difference. Yeah, I think they tended to treat us like the Europeans, more colonialists, until they realize we're Americans and we let our hair down, you know, no pretense at all.

[Assistant] And did you get, uh, did you get to travel around a lot? What did you do on your time off, vacation time and so forth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think they did. They all knew at least one Peace Corps volunteer that had been there previously. So I was Group 31. So they’d probably been there 10 years prior. And apparently we left, you know, everybody leaves with a good reputation, so they always welcome us back. Um, but the perception, the difference. Yeah, I think they tended to treat us like the Europeans, more colonialists, until they realize we're Americans and we let our hair down, you know, no pretense at all.

[Assistant] And did you get, uh, did you get to travel around a lot? What did you do on your time off, vacation time and so forth?

[User] Oh, yeah. So my first trip with my now ex-wife, we went to the outer island Rotuma, which is a Polynesian island in the Fiji group, which is Melanesian, and a typhoon blew through right after Christmas and we got stuck for a month. So don't ever let anybody tell you that being stranded on a tropical island is paradise cause it's not. So we ran out of money. We were staying with friends. We were just kind of picking up fruit along this road when we could. And it was pretty austere and we were happy to get home. But when we did, my wife had overextended her visa by a month. And I was AWOL. I got a message from the secretary of state, Cyrus Vance, saying parental inquiry, please reply.

[Assistant] Because your parents hadn’t heard from you?

[User] They hadn't heard from me in over a month.

[Assistant] So. Well, that's quite an experience. So did you stay in a village in Rotuma when you were stranded there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. So my first trip with my now ex-wife, we went to the outer island Rotuma, which is a Polynesian island in the Fiji group, which is Melanesian, and a typhoon blew through right after Christmas and we got stuck for a month. So don't ever let anybody tell you that being stranded on a tropical island is paradise cause it's not. So we ran out of money. We were staying with friends. We were just kind of picking up fruit along this road when we could. And it was pretty austere and we were happy to get home. But when we did, my wife had overextended her visa by a month. And I was AWOL. I got a message from the secretary of state, Cyrus Vance, saying parental inquiry, please reply.

[Assistant] Because your parents hadn’t heard from you?

[User] They hadn't heard from me in over a month.

[Assistant] So. Well, that's quite an experience. So did you stay in a village in Rotuma when you were stranded there?

[User] Yeah, we stayed with friends. First we stayed with the parents, and then we had to move out because they.

[Assistant] And these were Rotuman friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They hadn't heard from me in over a month.

[Assistant] So. Well, that's quite an experience. So did you stay in a village in Rotuma when you were stranded there?

[User] Yeah, we stayed with friends. First we stayed with the parents, and then we had to move out because they.

[Assistant] And these were Rotuman friends?

[User] Rotuman friends, yes. We had met in Fiji, the guy was actually a police officer in Fiji. So we went to Rotuma and stayed with his parents. But we had to leave there because they let the chickens roost inside the house. And my fiancée got infested with chicken chicks in her hair. So she had to wash her hair with kerosene, using one of these little fine tooth comb to scrape all the bugs out of her hair. Oh, she must have smelled horrible, but uh.

[Assistant] That was pretty common, to get lice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we stayed with friends. First we stayed with the parents, and then we had to move out because they.

[Assistant] And these were Rotuman friends?

[User] Rotuman friends, yes. We had met in Fiji, the guy was actually a police officer in Fiji. So we went to Rotuma and stayed with his parents. But we had to leave there because they let the chickens roost inside the house. And my fiancée got infested with chicken chicks in her hair. So she had to wash her hair with kerosene, using one of these little fine tooth comb to scrape all the bugs out of her hair. Oh, she must have smelled horrible, but uh.

[Assistant] That was pretty common, to get lice.

[User] So I heard, yeah, but that was probably the worst of it.

[Assistant] And you stayed for the two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rotuman friends, yes. We had met in Fiji, the guy was actually a police officer in Fiji. So we went to Rotuma and stayed with his parents. But we had to leave there because they let the chickens roost inside the house. And my fiancée got infested with chicken chicks in her hair. So she had to wash her hair with kerosene, using one of these little fine tooth comb to scrape all the bugs out of her hair. Oh, she must have smelled horrible, but uh.

[Assistant] That was pretty common, to get lice.

[User] So I heard, yeah, but that was probably the worst of it.

[Assistant] And you stayed for the two years?

[User] Two years of normal tour.

[Assistant] Did you think about extending?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I heard, yeah, but that was probably the worst of it.

[Assistant] And you stayed for the two years?

[User] Two years of normal tour.

[Assistant] Did you think about extending?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of reason why not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two years of normal tour.

[Assistant] Did you think about extending?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of reason why not?

[User] No. Yeah, I was engaged at the time, when my fiancée left after nine months. I was kind of lonely and so I didn't hook up with any of the Fijian girls and they all wanted to, they all wanted to. So I was a good boy. And then when I left Fiji, I traveled back and met her back in Detroit. No regrets. Yeah, otherwise I might have a Fijian wife.

[Assistant] Yeah. So looking back at, uh, your stay there, what were some of your, what do you think are some of your biggest accomplishments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of reason why not?

[User] No. Yeah, I was engaged at the time, when my fiancée left after nine months. I was kind of lonely and so I didn't hook up with any of the Fijian girls and they all wanted to, they all wanted to. So I was a good boy. And then when I left Fiji, I traveled back and met her back in Detroit. No regrets. Yeah, otherwise I might have a Fijian wife.

[Assistant] Yeah. So looking back at, uh, your stay there, what were some of your, what do you think are some of your biggest accomplishments?

[User] Well, I was a new architect and green as could be, but I had some building experience, so I learned a lot about working with people, being practical, about design solutions, shipping materials, or some things that just shouldn't be built in coastal areas that have hurricanes. I come from Florida. Fiji is not much different. Um, but I also learned about some of the methods of construction that they've been doing for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where they'll take hardwood timbers, char the ends of them so they're bug-proof, nothing to eat, and they bed them in sand so they drain well. And these timber structures have been in the ground for over 100 years. So I've learned a lot about, you know, modern construction through Fijians.

[Assistant] So you learn something from them as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Yeah, I was engaged at the time, when my fiancée left after nine months. I was kind of lonely and so I didn't hook up with any of the Fijian girls and they all wanted to, they all wanted to. So I was a good boy. And then when I left Fiji, I traveled back and met her back in Detroit. No regrets. Yeah, otherwise I might have a Fijian wife.

[Assistant] Yeah. So looking back at, uh, your stay there, what were some of your, what do you think are some of your biggest accomplishments?

[User] Well, I was a new architect and green as could be, but I had some building experience, so I learned a lot about working with people, being practical, about design solutions, shipping materials, or some things that just shouldn't be built in coastal areas that have hurricanes. I come from Florida. Fiji is not much different. Um, but I also learned about some of the methods of construction that they've been doing for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where they'll take hardwood timbers, char the ends of them so they're bug-proof, nothing to eat, and they bed them in sand so they drain well. And these timber structures have been in the ground for over 100 years. So I've learned a lot about, you know, modern construction through Fijians.

[Assistant] So you learn something from them as well.

[User] Right. Here's a trivial point, though. The fro pick, that was designed in Fiji. Originally called the Fijian, yeah, the Afro pick. So the Fijians have had their influence on our society, not the least of which is Fiji water. Tastes better with kava in it.

[Assistant] Tell us about kava.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a new architect and green as could be, but I had some building experience, so I learned a lot about working with people, being practical, about design solutions, shipping materials, or some things that just shouldn't be built in coastal areas that have hurricanes. I come from Florida. Fiji is not much different. Um, but I also learned about some of the methods of construction that they've been doing for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where they'll take hardwood timbers, char the ends of them so they're bug-proof, nothing to eat, and they bed them in sand so they drain well. And these timber structures have been in the ground for over 100 years. So I've learned a lot about, you know, modern construction through Fijians.

[Assistant] So you learn something from them as well.

[User] Right. Here's a trivial point, though. The fro pick, that was designed in Fiji. Originally called the Fijian, yeah, the Afro pick. So the Fijians have had their influence on our society, not the least of which is Fiji water. Tastes better with kava in it.

[Assistant] Tell us about kava.

[User] Well, kava is a pepper root. Don’t know if it's indigenous to just the Pacific islands, but different groups of islands drink it differently. In Fiji, it's ceremonial. So they drink it for weddings, funerals, divination of high chiefs, and so on. And they treat it with a lot of respect. You have to continue drinking until it's all gone or, you know, other traditions like that. It makes you, according to James Michener, the author of Hawaii, it makes you feel strong and important. So that's why they use it for these important meetings where you're sitting around drinking with a chief. And because they didn't have TV at the time, we just sit around telling stories all night long. And I'm pretty sure that by the end of the evening, the stories got better and better.

[Assistant] So that was kind of the social life then, gathering around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Here's a trivial point, though. The fro pick, that was designed in Fiji. Originally called the Fijian, yeah, the Afro pick. So the Fijians have had their influence on our society, not the least of which is Fiji water. Tastes better with kava in it.

[Assistant] Tell us about kava.

[User] Well, kava is a pepper root. Don’t know if it's indigenous to just the Pacific islands, but different groups of islands drink it differently. In Fiji, it's ceremonial. So they drink it for weddings, funerals, divination of high chiefs, and so on. And they treat it with a lot of respect. You have to continue drinking until it's all gone or, you know, other traditions like that. It makes you, according to James Michener, the author of Hawaii, it makes you feel strong and important. So that's why they use it for these important meetings where you're sitting around drinking with a chief. And because they didn't have TV at the time, we just sit around telling stories all night long. And I'm pretty sure that by the end of the evening, the stories got better and better.

[Assistant] So that was kind of the social life then, gathering around.

[User] Yeah, for men. Now, the women, they were back in the kitchen cooking and chatting. So my fiancée, she got kind of rushed to the women's side, even though she'd sneak back out and drink grog with the men.

[Assistant] So even being she wasn't Fijian, they still treated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, kava is a pepper root. Don’t know if it's indigenous to just the Pacific islands, but different groups of islands drink it differently. In Fiji, it's ceremonial. So they drink it for weddings, funerals, divination of high chiefs, and so on. And they treat it with a lot of respect. You have to continue drinking until it's all gone or, you know, other traditions like that. It makes you, according to James Michener, the author of Hawaii, it makes you feel strong and important. So that's why they use it for these important meetings where you're sitting around drinking with a chief. And because they didn't have TV at the time, we just sit around telling stories all night long. And I'm pretty sure that by the end of the evening, the stories got better and better.

[Assistant] So that was kind of the social life then, gathering around.

[User] Yeah, for men. Now, the women, they were back in the kitchen cooking and chatting. So my fiancée, she got kind of rushed to the women's side, even though she'd sneak back out and drink grog with the men.

[Assistant] So even being she wasn't Fijian, they still treated.

[User] Yes, she was Chinese. They didn't know the difference. And as well for an African-American volunteer, they treated her like one of the indigenous locals. So, yeah, we were treated more like colonialists, being white Europeans. Maybe that's changed now some.

[Assistant] And since, um, okay, so you left Peace Corps in 1980, it's been a long time. Have you kept in touch with, uh, with friends and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, for men. Now, the women, they were back in the kitchen cooking and chatting. So my fiancée, she got kind of rushed to the women's side, even though she'd sneak back out and drink grog with the men.

[Assistant] So even being she wasn't Fijian, they still treated.

[User] Yes, she was Chinese. They didn't know the difference. And as well for an African-American volunteer, they treated her like one of the indigenous locals. So, yeah, we were treated more like colonialists, being white Europeans. Maybe that's changed now some.

[Assistant] And since, um, okay, so you left Peace Corps in 1980, it's been a long time. Have you kept in touch with, uh, with friends and?

[User] I've certainly kept in touch with other Peace Corps volunteers. I've finally lost contact with the one family that I was writing to, um, up to about five years ago. They had a big hurricane or a typhoon and they had asked for some money, and I believe they sent something to help them out a little bit. But, um, since then, I've just lost touch. And I don't know that I'll ever get back there again. It's probably on my bucket list, but I might be an old man when I do.

[Assistant] So you haven't been back since?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, she was Chinese. They didn't know the difference. And as well for an African-American volunteer, they treated her like one of the indigenous locals. So, yeah, we were treated more like colonialists, being white Europeans. Maybe that's changed now some.

[Assistant] And since, um, okay, so you left Peace Corps in 1980, it's been a long time. Have you kept in touch with, uh, with friends and?

[User] I've certainly kept in touch with other Peace Corps volunteers. I've finally lost contact with the one family that I was writing to, um, up to about five years ago. They had a big hurricane or a typhoon and they had asked for some money, and I believe they sent something to help them out a little bit. But, um, since then, I've just lost touch. And I don't know that I'll ever get back there again. It's probably on my bucket list, but I might be an old man when I do.

[Assistant] So you haven't been back since?

[User] No, I just think about a lot.

[Assistant] But you have traveled a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've certainly kept in touch with other Peace Corps volunteers. I've finally lost contact with the one family that I was writing to, um, up to about five years ago. They had a big hurricane or a typhoon and they had asked for some money, and I believe they sent something to help them out a little bit. But, um, since then, I've just lost touch. And I don't know that I'll ever get back there again. It's probably on my bucket list, but I might be an old man when I do.

[Assistant] So you haven't been back since?

[User] No, I just think about a lot.

[Assistant] But you have traveled a lot.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What were some of the really unique things about the things that made Fiji different than other places you traveled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I just think about a lot.

[Assistant] But you have traveled a lot.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What were some of the really unique things about the things that made Fiji different than other places you traveled?

[User] Well, let me compare it to Okinawa, where I lived for four years. So between the Fijians and the Okinawans, I'd say the friendliest people on Earth. Poor Okinawans, they just got stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time during the war years. But even the Fijians were involved in the war, and the Solomons, and the Japanese were terribly afraid of them because they thought they were cannibals. And if they were captured, they'd be eaten. So that was probably the most interesting thing about Fiji is their cannibalistic history, but that only goes back about one hundred years ago. The last guy to be eaten was John Savage, because he loaned his comb to the chief and he went and touched the chief's head as he retrieved his comb. And that was his last stand. I think they boiled him. Their biggest insult would be, we wouldn't even want to eat you. Oh, please, please.

[Assistant] Well, that's a good thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What were some of the really unique things about the things that made Fiji different than other places you traveled?

[User] Well, let me compare it to Okinawa, where I lived for four years. So between the Fijians and the Okinawans, I'd say the friendliest people on Earth. Poor Okinawans, they just got stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time during the war years. But even the Fijians were involved in the war, and the Solomons, and the Japanese were terribly afraid of them because they thought they were cannibals. And if they were captured, they'd be eaten. So that was probably the most interesting thing about Fiji is their cannibalistic history, but that only goes back about one hundred years ago. The last guy to be eaten was John Savage, because he loaned his comb to the chief and he went and touched the chief's head as he retrieved his comb. And that was his last stand. I think they boiled him. Their biggest insult would be, we wouldn't even want to eat you. Oh, please, please.

[Assistant] Well, that's a good thing.

[User] Yeah, but it's all said in jest.

[Assistant] But you haven't kept in touch with the Peace Corps RPCV community and still involved somewhat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let me compare it to Okinawa, where I lived for four years. So between the Fijians and the Okinawans, I'd say the friendliest people on Earth. Poor Okinawans, they just got stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time during the war years. But even the Fijians were involved in the war, and the Solomons, and the Japanese were terribly afraid of them because they thought they were cannibals. And if they were captured, they'd be eaten. So that was probably the most interesting thing about Fiji is their cannibalistic history, but that only goes back about one hundred years ago. The last guy to be eaten was John Savage, because he loaned his comb to the chief and he went and touched the chief's head as he retrieved his comb. And that was his last stand. I think they boiled him. Their biggest insult would be, we wouldn't even want to eat you. Oh, please, please.

[Assistant] Well, that's a good thing.

[User] Yeah, but it's all said in jest.

[Assistant] But you haven't kept in touch with the Peace Corps RPCV community and still involved somewhat?

[User] Yeah, well, that's what brings me out here to Palo Alto, is a reunion with the other Peace Corps volunteers from many, many years ago.

[Assistant] And so in light of the three goals of Peace Corps, you know, providing assistance and promoting better understanding. Do you think you know from the personal connections that you made, that maybe you did foster some better understanding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but it's all said in jest.

[Assistant] But you haven't kept in touch with the Peace Corps RPCV community and still involved somewhat?

[User] Yeah, well, that's what brings me out here to Palo Alto, is a reunion with the other Peace Corps volunteers from many, many years ago.

[Assistant] And so in light of the three goals of Peace Corps, you know, providing assistance and promoting better understanding. Do you think you know from the personal connections that you made, that maybe you did foster some better understanding?

[User] I sure hope so. I sure hope so, because we're not stuffy. We’re Americans. We're not as proper as the English, Australians, New Zealanders. We're just, we're different somehow. And I hope that conveyed. And I've got a lot of Fijian friends here in California, Sacramento, Monterey, and as soon as we meet each other and say, bulla, it's like we're best friends.

[Assistant] When you're sitting around drinking with your friends, are there stories about Fiji that you like to tell? What is your favorite Fiji story?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, that's what brings me out here to Palo Alto, is a reunion with the other Peace Corps volunteers from many, many years ago.

[Assistant] And so in light of the three goals of Peace Corps, you know, providing assistance and promoting better understanding. Do you think you know from the personal connections that you made, that maybe you did foster some better understanding?

[User] I sure hope so. I sure hope so, because we're not stuffy. We’re Americans. We're not as proper as the English, Australians, New Zealanders. We're just, we're different somehow. And I hope that conveyed. And I've got a lot of Fijian friends here in California, Sacramento, Monterey, and as soon as we meet each other and say, bulla, it's like we're best friends.

[Assistant] When you're sitting around drinking with your friends, are there stories about Fiji that you like to tell? What is your favorite Fiji story?

[User] Favorite Fiji story? Well, I guess I'll use the one I mentioned the other day where the ambassador to Fiji came down for a conference with our director. And we were at a very nice luxury resort. And I was just starting to take interest in my fiancée. And I knocked on the door of one of the apartments and said, Irene, Irene! And the lady came to the door and says, no, she's not here, this is the ambassador's unit. Oh well, I got another one from Fiji. So I had to measure a sea landing jetty and I didn't have a long measuring tape. So I took a 10 foot stick and I was out there in the low tide, doing an end over end, doing an old measuring device to see how far out in the water I had to go with this rock jetty. And all the Fijians were up on the hill watching me dance under the full moon. They thought I was a devil and told me about it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I wonder how they would have done it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure hope so. I sure hope so, because we're not stuffy. We’re Americans. We're not as proper as the English, Australians, New Zealanders. We're just, we're different somehow. And I hope that conveyed. And I've got a lot of Fijian friends here in California, Sacramento, Monterey, and as soon as we meet each other and say, bulla, it's like we're best friends.

[Assistant] When you're sitting around drinking with your friends, are there stories about Fiji that you like to tell? What is your favorite Fiji story?

[User] Favorite Fiji story? Well, I guess I'll use the one I mentioned the other day where the ambassador to Fiji came down for a conference with our director. And we were at a very nice luxury resort. And I was just starting to take interest in my fiancée. And I knocked on the door of one of the apartments and said, Irene, Irene! And the lady came to the door and says, no, she's not here, this is the ambassador's unit. Oh well, I got another one from Fiji. So I had to measure a sea landing jetty and I didn't have a long measuring tape. So I took a 10 foot stick and I was out there in the low tide, doing an end over end, doing an old measuring device to see how far out in the water I had to go with this rock jetty. And all the Fijians were up on the hill watching me dance under the full moon. They thought I was a devil and told me about it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I wonder how they would have done it.

[User] I don't know, but I'm sure they were amused.

[Assistant] Were you able to see a lot of your project completed, like the jetty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Favorite Fiji story? Well, I guess I'll use the one I mentioned the other day where the ambassador to Fiji came down for a conference with our director. And we were at a very nice luxury resort. And I was just starting to take interest in my fiancée. And I knocked on the door of one of the apartments and said, Irene, Irene! And the lady came to the door and says, no, she's not here, this is the ambassador's unit. Oh well, I got another one from Fiji. So I had to measure a sea landing jetty and I didn't have a long measuring tape. So I took a 10 foot stick and I was out there in the low tide, doing an end over end, doing an old measuring device to see how far out in the water I had to go with this rock jetty. And all the Fijians were up on the hill watching me dance under the full moon. They thought I was a devil and told me about it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I wonder how they would have done it.

[User] I don't know, but I'm sure they were amused.

[Assistant] Were you able to see a lot of your project completed, like the jetty?

[User] Yeah, most of them were small projects. And some were obviously ongoing with housing and such. But yeah, you know, I think I did some good in the housing area, but I probably did more good in the grassroots diplomacy know. I'm sure. Yeah. Go to Fiji if you can.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay. Anything else you want to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know, but I'm sure they were amused.

[Assistant] Were you able to see a lot of your project completed, like the jetty?

[User] Yeah, most of them were small projects. And some were obviously ongoing with housing and such. But yeah, you know, I think I did some good in the housing area, but I probably did more good in the grassroots diplomacy know. I'm sure. Yeah. Go to Fiji if you can.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay. Anything else you want to share?

[User] Oh, I'm sure there's a lot more to add, but for sake of time and the record, I think I'll call it a day, but thank you for the interview. It's my honor to have served.

[Assistant] Ok, well thank you Jack. I appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be with all of you anytime.

[Assistant] Thank you. We appreciate that. We're happy to be with you, too.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] I thought today we'd talk about Shuttle.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I guess to start out, talk a little bit about your involvement in training the first class of Shuttle astronauts and how that came about, and what you talked with them about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Denver, Colorado, and spent the first six years in Denver and then came back to Wisconsin. My father was from Gays Mills, Wisconsin, west of Madison, and he was in the Navy and met my mother in Norfolk, Virginia, at a big naval base. And so my mother and father first went to Colorado because of some associations with family on my mother's side. But then we came back to, uh, to Wisconsin and to Madison. So I really see Madison as where I grew up.

[Assistant] And you're still here.

[User] And I'm still here. Left for a few years but came back because we had some small children and just thought it's a great place to raise kids and really love the east side of Madison. And I grew up on the far east side of Madison, which at that time was very working class. There's a real split and still is in Madison today between the working class and a much more, the educated, the university, government side of town. So my dad worked at Oscar Meyer and people at P.F. Schultz, really kind of industrial side of town. La Follette High School is where I went to high school, and that was, I would say, 98, 99 percent white.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] At the time I was here, you know, I had a class of close to 600 kids in my graduating class. And I, I think we had two African Americans, maybe a couple Asians, and a couple of Hispanics in a class that size. So very, very homogeneous, very, very, you know, like working class Democratic conservative in terms of the social side of it in many ways. So.

[Assistant] Sure. And when you were in high school, what did you do outside of academics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm still here. Left for a few years but came back because we had some small children and just thought it's a great place to raise kids and really love the east side of Madison. And I grew up on the far east side of Madison, which at that time was very working class. There's a real split and still is in Madison today between the working class and a much more, the educated, the university, government side of town. So my dad worked at Oscar Meyer and people at P.F. Schultz, really kind of industrial side of town. La Follette High School is where I went to high school, and that was, I would say, 98, 99 percent white.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] At the time I was here, you know, I had a class of close to 600 kids in my graduating class. And I, I think we had two African Americans, maybe a couple Asians, and a couple of Hispanics in a class that size. So very, very homogeneous, very, very, you know, like working class Democratic conservative in terms of the social side of it in many ways. So.

[Assistant] Sure. And when you were in high school, what did you do outside of academics?

[User] Sports. I was very much into sports, I played football, basketball, and baseball. I probably had a pretty typical kind of childhood growing up. I would say.

[Assistant] Do you have brothers and sisters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time I was here, you know, I had a class of close to 600 kids in my graduating class. And I, I think we had two African Americans, maybe a couple Asians, and a couple of Hispanics in a class that size. So very, very homogeneous, very, very, you know, like working class Democratic conservative in terms of the social side of it in many ways. So.

[Assistant] Sure. And when you were in high school, what did you do outside of academics?

[User] Sports. I was very much into sports, I played football, basketball, and baseball. I probably had a pretty typical kind of childhood growing up. I would say.

[Assistant] Do you have brothers and sisters?

[User] I had an older brother that was a couple of years older than I was. He was two years, yeah, almost two years almost exactly older than I was. And that was just the two of us and my mother and father.

[Assistant] And your mother stayed home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sports. I was very much into sports, I played football, basketball, and baseball. I probably had a pretty typical kind of childhood growing up. I would say.

[Assistant] Do you have brothers and sisters?

[User] I had an older brother that was a couple of years older than I was. He was two years, yeah, almost two years almost exactly older than I was. And that was just the two of us and my mother and father.

[Assistant] And your mother stayed home?

[User] No, my mother worked. She worked for the telephone company for years.

[Assistant] Huh, no kidding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had an older brother that was a couple of years older than I was. He was two years, yeah, almost two years almost exactly older than I was. And that was just the two of us and my mother and father.

[Assistant] And your mother stayed home?

[User] No, my mother worked. She worked for the telephone company for years.

[Assistant] Huh, no kidding.

[User] She was with the telephone company.

[Assistant] So did mine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was with the telephone company.

[Assistant] So did mine.

[User] Really? Huh. Yeah. So she worked at the telephone company and my dad had, my dad was one of these dreamers that was always trying to, to, in hindsight I understood it, trying to, to get more for the family. So he was in and out of jobs. But he, he, like I said, worked at Oscar Mayer on the, on the east side, the meatpacking plant at the time, and had other various jobs. He passed away when I was 19.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I was pretty, pretty young when he passed away.

[Assistant] Yeah. You would have been in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? Huh. Yeah. So she worked at the telephone company and my dad had, my dad was one of these dreamers that was always trying to, to, in hindsight I understood it, trying to, to get more for the family. So he was in and out of jobs. But he, he, like I said, worked at Oscar Mayer on the, on the east side, the meatpacking plant at the time, and had other various jobs. He passed away when I was 19.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I was pretty, pretty young when he passed away.

[Assistant] Yeah. You would have been in college?

[User] Just, I was a sophomore in college actually, and I had gone my first year of college to Eau Claire, Wisconsin.

[Assistant] That's at University of Wisconsin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, up in northern Wisconsin. And then my sophomore year, I went out to Lewis Clark State out in Idaho and took classes there and at the University of Idaho, because I had relatives there and always loved it.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And probably would have stayed if it wasn't for my father passing away and coming back and trying, you know, trying to support my mother and being with my mother.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So eventually then graduated from University of Wisconsin, Madison.

[Assistant] In what, what did you major in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And probably would have stayed if it wasn't for my father passing away and coming back and trying, you know, trying to support my mother and being with my mother.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So eventually then graduated from University of Wisconsin, Madison.

[Assistant] In what, what did you major in?

[User] I was in broad field social studies, it was called. But I was very interested in kind of the connection of education and agriculture in a kind of more holistic sense even back then.

[Assistant] Huh. And you still are.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So eventually then graduated from University of Wisconsin, Madison.

[Assistant] In what, what did you major in?

[User] I was in broad field social studies, it was called. But I was very interested in kind of the connection of education and agriculture in a kind of more holistic sense even back then.

[Assistant] Huh. And you still are.

[User] And I still am. I still am.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did your, um, did your family have a chance to travel together like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in broad field social studies, it was called. But I was very interested in kind of the connection of education and agriculture in a kind of more holistic sense even back then.

[Assistant] Huh. And you still are.

[User] And I still am. I still am.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did your, um, did your family have a chance to travel together like?

[User] Very little. We didn't do, a little bit in northern Wisconsin, but my mother, I think, was really kind of the instigator of my wanting to explore the world. She always talked about, you know, going beyond where you are and there's a big world out there.

[Assistant] Oh wow, good for her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little. We didn't do, a little bit in northern Wisconsin, but my mother, I think, was really kind of the instigator of my wanting to explore the world. She always talked about, you know, going beyond where you are and there's a big world out there.

[Assistant] Oh wow, good for her.

[User] And finding out. So I really do attribute my going overseas and international to my mother. My first connection with Peace Corps is my best friend in high school's older brother. Um, I knew Hank, you know, somewhat well before he left, but he left and was a Peace Corps volunteer in then Zaire.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And we just started writing back and forth. And his.

[Assistant] While he was in Zaire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we just started writing back and forth. And his.

[Assistant] While he was in Zaire?

[User] While he was in Zaire.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] And so his stories of what he was doing, who he was working with, being in Africa just completely intrigued me and completely stimulated my interest in saying, I've got to go there. I want to do this.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] While he was in Zaire.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] And so his stories of what he was doing, who he was working with, being in Africa just completely intrigued me and completely stimulated my interest in saying, I've got to go there. I want to do this.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah, yeah.

[User] So I went through college.

[Assistant] Did you study languages, picturing yourself speaking something else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so his stories of what he was doing, who he was working with, being in Africa just completely intrigued me and completely stimulated my interest in saying, I've got to go there. I want to do this.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah, yeah.

[User] So I went through college.

[Assistant] Did you study languages, picturing yourself speaking something else?

[User]
You know, I didn't. Matter of fact, I consider myself pretty, pretty insufficient in learning language. It intimidated me I think at the time. I did have, obviously as a Peace Corps volunteer, have to learn language. I don't know how well I spoke Sesotho, though when I speak it now, and we'll get to being in Lesotho, I still, some of it comes back.

And I just think that that language is one of those key things to being comfortable or as comfortable as you can in a foreign country is knowing the language. And you just, if you don't know the language, you miss out on so much, and not only just the connections you make with people, but understanding how people look at the world a little bit better because I think that's one of the challenges of being overseas, is trying to figure out how are people looking at their own situations. And, you know, after now over 30 years going to Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, in many ways, I still don't exactly know how people do things and how they figure out livelihoods in that, because it just, it's just so, it's just out of my realm, out of my norm but.

[Assistant] And language has something to do with figuring that out. But maybe one has to stay in a country for longer than just two years to really figure out in depth how things really work, how decisions get made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, for me, Peace Corps at the time, I really didn't even think about it in a broad sense. I thought about going to someplace in sub-Saharan Africa because that's where I wanted to go. I didn't think about all the other connections you can have as a Peace Corps volunteer. I thought, okay, I'll go to some village and I'll meet the people there. But in that village that I went to, one of my best friends was a Sri Lankan. There was a South African that was living there. There was a whole Irish community because there was a pony project in Lesotho that I got to know. And then there are the returned Peace Corps volunteers or the volunteers that were there in my group who became some of my best friends and still are. We still get together.

[Assistant] So it's, it's an international experience.

[User] International.

[Assistant] It's much broader than what we thought.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] It would be. In your application to Peace Corps, and you must have applied, what, in your senior year of college maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] International.

[Assistant] It's much broader than what we thought.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] It would be. In your application to Peace Corps, and you must have applied, what, in your senior year of college maybe?

[User] I think so, yes.

[Assistant] You, do you remember if they asked the question of, um, where you would prefer to be sent if you had, what would be your first choice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] It would be. In your application to Peace Corps, and you must have applied, what, in your senior year of college maybe?

[User] I think so, yes.

[Assistant] You, do you remember if they asked the question of, um, where you would prefer to be sent if you had, what would be your first choice?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you got to say sub-Saharan Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, and that's really where I wanted, I didn't, I didn't really want to go anyplace else.

[Assistant] Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I, I answered that question saying, yes, Latin America, because I lived in Chicago and there were millions of people who spoke Spanish. And so I got the invitation to train for Nigeria. You got exactly what you wanted. That's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, and that's really where I wanted, I didn't, I didn't really want to go anyplace else.

[Assistant] Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I, I answered that question saying, yes, Latin America, because I lived in Chicago and there were millions of people who spoke Spanish. And so I got the invitation to train for Nigeria. You got exactly what you wanted. That's good.

[User] Well, my best friend in Peace Corps, Michael de Damo was his name, who's since passed away, he was talking about languages. He just had a gift with languages. So he was fluent in French. So he wanted to definitely go to Francophone Africa.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my best friend in Peace Corps, Michael de Damo was his name, who's since passed away, he was talking about languages. He just had a gift with languages. So he was fluent in French. So he wanted to definitely go to Francophone Africa.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, yes.

[User] Well, he ended up with Lesotho.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Which is Anglophone.

[Assistant] Nobody speaks French.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is Anglophone.

[Assistant] Nobody speaks French.

[User] Nobody speaks French.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] And, you know, in hindsight, it was, it was just an incredible gift to me that that happened because he was such an incredible, incredible person. But yeah, it's one of those things. It's not an exact science. And I can get into this more about my changes and thoughts about really what to me is important about Peace Corps and why it's, to me, it's more, even more critical today than it was when I was there, given the world.

[Assistant] Good. Let's save that reflection for a while. But let's not abandon it. So you, you received the, uh, the invitation to train and you say goodbye to your mom and dad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, in hindsight, it was, it was just an incredible gift to me that that happened because he was such an incredible, incredible person. But yeah, it's one of those things. It's not an exact science. And I can get into this more about my changes and thoughts about really what to me is important about Peace Corps and why it's, to me, it's more, even more critical today than it was when I was there, given the world.

[Assistant] Good. Let's save that reflection for a while. But let's not abandon it. So you, you received the, uh, the invitation to train and you say goodbye to your mom and dad.

[User] Well, it was interesting because I was waiting. I didn't really, I had like a year. They said you can go in and but it was like a year before I went.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I ended up going out to visit a cousin out in Seattle, Washington. And then I had a very, this friend of mine from high school whose brother had been a Peace Corps volunteer. Kurt Mueller had just gotten his first job with Hormel, the meat packing place, as a salesman down in Austin, Texas. So I said, I'll go down to Austin, Texas. So I drove down to Austin, Texas, from Seattle and stayed down there for almost nine months.

[Assistant] Did you work at Hormel too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I ended up going out to visit a cousin out in Seattle, Washington. And then I had a very, this friend of mine from high school whose brother had been a Peace Corps volunteer. Kurt Mueller had just gotten his first job with Hormel, the meat packing place, as a salesman down in Austin, Texas. So I said, I'll go down to Austin, Texas. So I drove down to Austin, Texas, from Seattle and stayed down there for almost nine months.

[Assistant] Did you work at Hormel too?

[User] No, I worked in various jobs just to kind of get by. And it was, it was wonderful. You know, at that time of your life, you don't need a whole lot. And Kurt had this great job at the time that he was doing so I could live with him. So it was a wonderful experience in between as I was waiting for my time to go in. And at that time they had these, you know, Peace Corps had these programs where it was almost like a week-long job interview.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] Where, and they were called, I want to say CRESTs, which was the acronym. I can't remember, CATs and CRESTs. But they, in, it was, it was actually Halloween that we went out to Washington. All of us flew to Washington. And then they put us in busses and we went out to a place called Cappahosic, Virginia, which is the birthplace I think of the NAACP. Beautiful place out in the countryside but you're very isolated. And you would have these what they called intact groups where you were with a group of other people wanting to go into Peace Corps and you had two trainers and you would go through these exercises all day long.

[Assistant] And how many people would be in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I worked in various jobs just to kind of get by. And it was, it was wonderful. You know, at that time of your life, you don't need a whole lot. And Kurt had this great job at the time that he was doing so I could live with him. So it was a wonderful experience in between as I was waiting for my time to go in. And at that time they had these, you know, Peace Corps had these programs where it was almost like a week-long job interview.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] Where, and they were called, I want to say CRESTs, which was the acronym. I can't remember, CATs and CRESTs. But they, in, it was, it was actually Halloween that we went out to Washington. All of us flew to Washington. And then they put us in busses and we went out to a place called Cappahosic, Virginia, which is the birthplace I think of the NAACP. Beautiful place out in the countryside but you're very isolated. And you would have these what they called intact groups where you were with a group of other people wanting to go into Peace Corps and you had two trainers and you would go through these exercises all day long.

[Assistant] And how many people would be in your group?

[User] Well, I think at the time there was, that was like 60 some people.

[Assistant] Divided up into smaller groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where, and they were called, I want to say CRESTs, which was the acronym. I can't remember, CATs and CRESTs. But they, in, it was, it was actually Halloween that we went out to Washington. All of us flew to Washington. And then they put us in busses and we went out to a place called Cappahosic, Virginia, which is the birthplace I think of the NAACP. Beautiful place out in the countryside but you're very isolated. And you would have these what they called intact groups where you were with a group of other people wanting to go into Peace Corps and you had two trainers and you would go through these exercises all day long.

[Assistant] And how many people would be in your group?

[User] Well, I think at the time there was, that was like 60 some people.

[Assistant] Divided up into smaller groups?

[User] And divided up into smaller groups. So you had all these intact groups that you went with and they had exercises. They had these different almost kind of scenarios and case studies, and you watched films and they even said, you know, even when you're eating, when you're interacting, we're watching.

[Assistant] Okay. So were they talking about deselection?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think at the time there was, that was like 60 some people.

[Assistant] Divided up into smaller groups?

[User] And divided up into smaller groups. So you had all these intact groups that you went with and they had exercises. They had these different almost kind of scenarios and case studies, and you watched films and they even said, you know, even when you're eating, when you're interacting, we're watching.

[Assistant] Okay. So were they talking about deselection?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Only some of you will go and some of you will not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Only some of you will go and some of you will not.

[User] Exactly. So actually, the person.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] It was. It was, it was fairly intimidating because you're wondering how honest can you be if you really have a reaction to something because you don't know who these people are really. You don't know how they're interpreting it.

[Assistant] And all these other people, these 60 other people. Was it a mixed group, men and women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. So actually, the person.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] It was. It was, it was fairly intimidating because you're wondering how honest can you be if you really have a reaction to something because you don't know who these people are really. You don't know how they're interpreting it.

[Assistant] And all these other people, these 60 other people. Was it a mixed group, men and women?

[User] Men and women.

[Assistant] Some married couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was, it was fairly intimidating because you're wondering how honest can you be if you really have a reaction to something because you don't know who these people are really. You don't know how they're interpreting it.

[Assistant] And all these other people, these 60 other people. Was it a mixed group, men and women?

[User] Men and women.

[Assistant] Some married couples?

[User] Um, one married couple. And that was it.

[Assistant] And you were all expecting to go to Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Men and women.

[Assistant] Some married couples?

[User] Um, one married couple. And that was it.

[Assistant] And you were all expecting to go to Lesotho?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If this week of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, one married couple. And that was it.

[Assistant] And you were all expecting to go to Lesotho?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If this week of.

[User] It was all for Lesotho.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was all for Lesotho.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How interesting.

[User] And we, there was a couple African American. No, one African American, I believe, in the group if I remember.

[Assistant] Just one?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Everybody else was white?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we, there was a couple African American. No, one African American, I believe, in the group if I remember.

[Assistant] Just one?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Everybody else was white?

[User] Right. Mm hmm. And so. And that was a part of it. You're going to Lesotho, which is stuck in the middle of South Africa. Apartheid is alive and well. And so a lot of it was, and he was actually deselected.

[Assistant] The African American?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Mm hmm. And so. And that was a part of it. You're going to Lesotho, which is stuck in the middle of South Africa. Apartheid is alive and well. And so a lot of it was, and he was actually deselected.

[Assistant] The African American?

[User] Mm hmm. Because of, and again, I'm, I don't know the whole story, but part of it was because, you know, the questions of how would you handle these situations if you're confronted, which you have to be. Lesotho is like an island in the middle of South Africa, with these situations of whites, when you have to go into South Africa to do things. And his reaction was pretty strong about what he wouldn't put up with and what he wouldn't do. And coming from his perspective, I can understand that. But he's also going to South Africa and so he was deselected.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And my best friend from that, that I got closest to, was my roommate, was deselected. And part of that is because, um, he was quiet. And they told you right up front, no data is data. So and, you know, I don't, I thought it was a mistake because I thought he would be an incredible volunteer. But he was also deselected. And then the way it was handled was done very poorly.

[Assistant] And all those decisions about being selected or deselected were made on the basis of that one first week?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Because of, and again, I'm, I don't know the whole story, but part of it was because, you know, the questions of how would you handle these situations if you're confronted, which you have to be. Lesotho is like an island in the middle of South Africa, with these situations of whites, when you have to go into South Africa to do things. And his reaction was pretty strong about what he wouldn't put up with and what he wouldn't do. And coming from his perspective, I can understand that. But he's also going to South Africa and so he was deselected.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And my best friend from that, that I got closest to, was my roommate, was deselected. And part of that is because, um, he was quiet. And they told you right up front, no data is data. So and, you know, I don't, I thought it was a mistake because I thought he would be an incredible volunteer. But he was also deselected. And then the way it was handled was done very poorly.

[Assistant] And all those decisions about being selected or deselected were made on the basis of that one first week?

[User] Yes. Well, in your, yeah. You got there and you were, how that worked is you went through this week and the last day you were called in by yourself and you had your, your two intact leaders there and they talked to you about things that they saw and they said and we've, you know, for me they said we think you'll be a good Peace Corps volunteer. And so you, you're out of there. I hate it!

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my best friend from that, that I got closest to, was my roommate, was deselected. And part of that is because, um, he was quiet. And they told you right up front, no data is data. So and, you know, I don't, I thought it was a mistake because I thought he would be an incredible volunteer. But he was also deselected. And then the way it was handled was done very poorly.

[Assistant] And all those decisions about being selected or deselected were made on the basis of that one first week?

[User] Yes. Well, in your, yeah. You got there and you were, how that worked is you went through this week and the last day you were called in by yourself and you had your, your two intact leaders there and they talked to you about things that they saw and they said and we've, you know, for me they said we think you'll be a good Peace Corps volunteer. And so you, you're out of there. I hate it!

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.

[User] And then you had other people that were in tears coming out and they put us all in the same bus back to Washington.

[Assistant] Oh, how difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, in your, yeah. You got there and you were, how that worked is you went through this week and the last day you were called in by yourself and you had your, your two intact leaders there and they talked to you about things that they saw and they said and we've, you know, for me they said we think you'll be a good Peace Corps volunteer. And so you, you're out of there. I hate it!

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.

[User] And then you had other people that were in tears coming out and they put us all in the same bus back to Washington.

[Assistant] Oh, how difficult.

[User] So how do you? You're in your, you know, I was euphoric. So were all these other people. And you have this other group. How do you, you're sitting there going, you know, I can't be excited. This person's been devastated. So it was, it was a really horrible, horrible part. That part of it was horrible. That week was actually lovely. It was just incredible.

[Assistant] Did they asked you to evaluate your peers at any point during that week?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then you had other people that were in tears coming out and they put us all in the same bus back to Washington.

[Assistant] Oh, how difficult.

[User] So how do you? You're in your, you know, I was euphoric. So were all these other people. And you have this other group. How do you, you're sitting there going, you know, I can't be excited. This person's been devastated. So it was, it was a really horrible, horrible part. That part of it was horrible. That week was actually lovely. It was just incredible.

[Assistant] Did they asked you to evaluate your peers at any point during that week?

[User] No.

[Assistant] It was all the trainers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Evaluating you.

[User] Exactly. Yeah. So that was, that was, that was intense. And so but then you had a month. They sent you back.

[Assistant] Back home?

[User] Back home.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Back home.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] I had a month before, when that was over to the time we left. So you had this month of getting ready and.

[Assistant] Packing up.

[User] Packing up.

[Assistant] They gave you a list of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They give you a list, you know, Peace Corps is very good at providing those, that type, that type of information. I got to learn more about, you know, when I first went into it, I thought it was "Le-so-to" I was going to.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] I didn't know anything about it. They had a little phrase book. You could start to learn some of the greetings and but you went back and then we kept in contact with each other that were going by calling and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we had a month, and four of us.

[Assistant] How many of you were going to go now from the sixty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know anything about it. They had a little phrase book. You could start to learn some of the greetings and but you went back and then we kept in contact with each other that were going by calling and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we had a month, and four of us.

[Assistant] How many of you were going to go now from the sixty?

[User] Probably about 45 or 46.

[Assistant] Okay. So maybe 15 people were deselected at the time. So you had a month at home. What were your, your mom was, I'm sure, quite supportive. You've given an indication that she's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was, but she was also, you know, the real, the realization that I was going to be gone for two plus years and communication at that time, as we talked about, Phyllis, was a lot different than it is today.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] She was also really, she was excited for me, but at the same time, she was frightened. I was going to Africa. What did you know about Africa? All these images that sadly haven't changed all that much from today, I think, in terms of our knowledge of what Africa is. We still get things so distorted. We're all there. So she was excited and at the time my mother had gotten remarried. My father had passed away several years before.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] She met a wonderful guy. So that made me feel better about going in.

[Assistant] Okay, because you wouldn't have to worry about your mom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was also really, she was excited for me, but at the same time, she was frightened. I was going to Africa. What did you know about Africa? All these images that sadly haven't changed all that much from today, I think, in terms of our knowledge of what Africa is. We still get things so distorted. We're all there. So she was excited and at the time my mother had gotten remarried. My father had passed away several years before.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] She met a wonderful guy. So that made me feel better about going in.

[Assistant] Okay, because you wouldn't have to worry about your mom.

[User] Right, my mother. So she was, so she was excited. It was, it was that part of it. And, you know, having to sell. I had an old car, so it wasn't a big deal because I think I sold it for $100 or something to somebody, it was an old beater. And then friends, saying goodbye to them and things. So it was an exciting time. And then we met out in Croton on Hudson, to a guy that lived out there. Went to New York City because we were all flying out of JFK on.

[Assistant] So, so Peace Corps flew you from Madison, Wisconsin, to Croton on Hudson?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She met a wonderful guy. So that made me feel better about going in.

[Assistant] Okay, because you wouldn't have to worry about your mom.

[User] Right, my mother. So she was, so she was excited. It was, it was that part of it. And, you know, having to sell. I had an old car, so it wasn't a big deal because I think I sold it for $100 or something to somebody, it was an old beater. And then friends, saying goodbye to them and things. So it was an exciting time. And then we met out in Croton on Hudson, to a guy that lived out there. Went to New York City because we were all flying out of JFK on.

[Assistant] So, so Peace Corps flew you from Madison, Wisconsin, to Croton on Hudson?

[User] To New York City.

[Assistant] Oh, that is New York City.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's just north, it's just up the Hudson.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So we flew in the JFK and four of us met and went out the night before. And then all of us met at JFK, 45 of us or whatever it was, and flew to Paris. Had a day in Paris.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] So we all went.

[Assistant] So you get over your jetlag.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jetlag. A little bit.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because there was quite a bit of drinking going on and card playing on the way over. And then we were out in Paris. So we're at the cafes drinking wine, and then we, everybody crashed. We got on the plane and went from there to Johannesburg, which is a long flight.

[Assistant] Long flight.

[User] Long flight. And I had my first. Stop me too, Phyllis, if I'm jumping ahead. But I had my first sort of experience with apartheid at the airport in Johannesburg, where a friend of mine, Mike, the guy I said before that was my, ended up being my best friend, went up to the bank in Johannesburg to change some money from dollars into rand.

[Assistant] So you didn't have to stay in the airport at Johannesburg?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because there was quite a bit of drinking going on and card playing on the way over. And then we were out in Paris. So we're at the cafes drinking wine, and then we, everybody crashed. We got on the plane and went from there to Johannesburg, which is a long flight.

[Assistant] Long flight.

[User] Long flight. And I had my first. Stop me too, Phyllis, if I'm jumping ahead. But I had my first sort of experience with apartheid at the airport in Johannesburg, where a friend of mine, Mike, the guy I said before that was my, ended up being my best friend, went up to the bank in Johannesburg to change some money from dollars into rand.

[Assistant] So you didn't have to stay in the airport at Johannesburg?

[User] No, we were, we were. We were getting on, we were going to go. They were trying to figure out exactly some, something happened with travel, but what they were going to do with us. So we were there and wanted to transfer some money, went to the line where there's a bank. And the teller made the two Africans who were in front of us move to the side. And we, and of course, we were kind of indignant about that and said, no, we're not going to do this. And the guy said, well, then I'm not going to wait on you.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. So you're in South Africa. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were, we were. We were getting on, we were going to go. They were trying to figure out exactly some, something happened with travel, but what they were going to do with us. So we were there and wanted to transfer some money, went to the line where there's a bank. And the teller made the two Africans who were in front of us move to the side. And we, and of course, we were kind of indignant about that and said, no, we're not going to do this. And the guy said, well, then I'm not going to wait on you.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. So you're in South Africa. Yeah.

[User] And the two guys there said just go up and do it. So we got up and changed our money. And then we went to, uh, we went to this very nice hotel. Peace Corps put us into what they called a braai, which is a barbecue. That's what they call a barbecue in South Africa. And I think braai is either Dutch or Afrikaans. And did that for the day. There was a swimming pool and it was just, it was bizarre because we're in this hotel. The only Blacks there are waiters and waitresses. They couldn't, it was illegal for them to be in that hotel. And so Peace Corps did that, which we were all saying, what is this about? You know, because that wasn't our image of what we were supposed to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then we ended up flying to a.

[Assistant] But that was just one night, right, in that hotel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we ended up flying to a.

[Assistant] But that was just one night, right, in that hotel?

[User] We didn't even spend the night. We were waiting for a flight later to fly to Bloemfontein.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So it was during the day.

[Assistant] A few hours of, uh, R & R.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't even spend the night. We were waiting for a flight later to fly to Bloemfontein.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So it was during the day.

[Assistant] A few hours of, uh, R & R.

[User] There was about six or 7 hours that we were there and then took a flight to Bloemfontein, which is in the Orange Free State, which is kind of the center of, it was the center of the Afrikaans, um, kind of power structure at the time. So it was all, all white, surrounded by all white farmers. And you did have these townships or homelands at the time around there. So Bloemfontein was a city that at night all the Blacks had to leave, so they all had to go out to their, to their little township outside of Bloemfontein.

[Assistant] And how long a journey might that be, where they worked in Bloemfontein to where they lived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was during the day.

[Assistant] A few hours of, uh, R & R.

[User] There was about six or 7 hours that we were there and then took a flight to Bloemfontein, which is in the Orange Free State, which is kind of the center of, it was the center of the Afrikaans, um, kind of power structure at the time. So it was all, all white, surrounded by all white farmers. And you did have these townships or homelands at the time around there. So Bloemfontein was a city that at night all the Blacks had to leave, so they all had to go out to their, to their little township outside of Bloemfontein.

[Assistant] And how long a journey might that be, where they worked in Bloemfontein to where they lived?

[User] No, they all, all these busses came in and they got on busses. It wasn't too far outside, but the conditions were, you know, this nice city and the conditions in the townships were pretty horrible. And then we took a bus from Bloemfontein into Lesotho. And I remember it was pouring raining, it was dark. We didn't, you know, you're so disoriented, you're tired. They served us Kentucky Fried Chicken on the bus.

[Assistant] And the road, what's the road like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they all, all these busses came in and they got on busses. It wasn't too far outside, but the conditions were, you know, this nice city and the conditions in the townships were pretty horrible. And then we took a bus from Bloemfontein into Lesotho. And I remember it was pouring raining, it was dark. We didn't, you know, you're so disoriented, you're tired. They served us Kentucky Fried Chicken on the bus.

[Assistant] And the road, what's the road like?

[User] The road wasn't bad from there.

[Assistant] Paved?

[User] Yeah, it was paved. It was all paved. You know, South Africa is one of those places where, you know, even, even today, they talk about it different than the rest of sub-Saharan Africa, because it was very Western in what was developed. A very large African population that was totally disenfranchised. But it was, it was, that part of it going from Bloemfontein into South Africa to Lesotho was very well done. It was a very nice highway. And so we went to the border, got in, and then we, it was nighttime and we took the bus to a town called Roma.

[Assistant] This is a different bus now, you switched at the border?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Get our passports and all that done. And it was interesting because at the time we had two passports as Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Two?

[User] Because I think we were the only country in the world that they allowed that. Because if you traveled, many countries, both in southern Africa as well other places, if you could, wouldn't accept your passport if you had a South African stamp in it.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So they knew that.

[Assistant] Okay, because they were against, that was a way of showing their opposition to apartheid?