[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Happy to participate…

[Assistant] Okay. I'd like to start. If you could tell us about your background, where you grew up, and what kind of interest you may have had that led you into the NASA career.

[User] Well, I grew up on a remote cattle ranch on the Wyoming-Montana border. It was so remote that when I started school I had to board out from the first grade through high school. So I kind of got used to being self-sufficient, I guess you might say, or independent.\n\n When I was little, I had an interest in science, and I always wanted my dad to buy me a really good microscope, you know, and all that sort of thing. In high school I got really interested in physics, and that's what I ended up majoring in in college. I don't know what else there is to say, really.

[Assistant] That's fine. Before you went to college, you spent some time in the Army, is that correct?

[User] Actually, it was between my freshman and sophomore years. I was in the National Guard. I had one month to serve for my three-year term of service in the National Guard when [Harry S.] Truman, President Truman, that is, activated or extended everybody's enlistment, whether it was National Guard Reserve, regular Army, or whatever, by one year. So I ended up spending thirteen months in the Army, about eight or nine of those in Korea.

[Assistant] So what type of work did you do for the Army? Anything related to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I grew up on a remote cattle ranch on the Wyoming-Montana border. It was so remote that when I started school I had to board out from the first grade through high school. So I kind of got used to being self-sufficient, I guess you might say, or independent.\n\n When I was little, I had an interest in science, and I always wanted my dad to buy me a really good microscope, you know, and all that sort of thing. In high school I got really interested in physics, and that's what I ended up majoring in in college. I don't know what else there is to say, really.

[Assistant] That's fine. Before you went to college, you spent some time in the Army, is that correct?

[User] Actually, it was between my freshman and sophomore years. I was in the National Guard. I had one month to serve for my three-year term of service in the National Guard when [Harry S.] Truman, President Truman, that is, activated or extended everybody's enlistment, whether it was National Guard Reserve, regular Army, or whatever, by one year. So I ended up spending thirteen months in the Army, about eight or nine of those in Korea.

[Assistant] So what type of work did you do for the Army? Anything related to—

[User] I was a supply corporal and a truck driver. [Laughter] Nothing related to anything.

[Assistant] Then you obviously had a chance to go back to school and work on your physics degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, it was between my freshman and sophomore years. I was in the National Guard. I had one month to serve for my three-year term of service in the National Guard when [Harry S.] Truman, President Truman, that is, activated or extended everybody's enlistment, whether it was National Guard Reserve, regular Army, or whatever, by one year. So I ended up spending thirteen months in the Army, about eight or nine of those in Korea.

[Assistant] So what type of work did you do for the Army? Anything related to—

[User] I was a supply corporal and a truck driver. [Laughter] Nothing related to anything.

[Assistant] Then you obviously had a chance to go back to school and work on your physics degree?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular interest there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a supply corporal and a truck driver. [Laughter] Nothing related to anything.

[Assistant] Then you obviously had a chance to go back to school and work on your physics degree?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular interest there?

[User] As a matter of fact, that worked out pretty good, because my G.I. Bill carried me right to my bachelor's degree and that was it. It would have run out like three days after I got my bachelor's degree.\n\n What was your next question? I'm sorry.

[Assistant] I was just asking you about your specific interest in physics, if you had any.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular interest there?

[User] As a matter of fact, that worked out pretty good, because my G.I. Bill carried me right to my bachelor's degree and that was it. It would have run out like three days after I got my bachelor's degree.\n\n What was your next question? I'm sorry.

[Assistant] I was just asking you about your specific interest in physics, if you had any.

[User] No, not really. You know, at the baccalaureate level you don't really have a chance to specialize or anything. I was just kind of interested in everything.\n\n When I graduated, I went back to the ranch for a year, and I decided that being a 25 percent partner in a family-owned ranch wasn't my cup of tea, because I was the junior partner and took orders from everybody else. So I decided I'd just strike out on my own.\n\n I went back to the University of Wyoming [Laramie, Wyoming] for one semester of graduate work. I got a summer job in San Diego [California] with Convair [Division of General Dynamics]. The reason we took that was because my wife's folks, my mother-in-law and father-in-law, were living in San Diego at the time, so we had free board and room. It was so much fun to make money for a change, that I just never went back to school. I stayed with Convair, which very quickly became General Dynamics Astronautics. I was on the Atlas program.

[Assistant] What was your first job with Convair?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I managed to survive Houston for ten months. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What kind of projects were you working on when you first came down? What specific areas?

[User] Developing the flight test program for the Apollo spacecraft.

[Assistant] That involved—?

[User] Oh, boy, that involved just a whole range of things, you know. How many flights do we need? What's the best way to test them? What kind of instrumentation should we use? When do we need to start using Saturn Vs as opposed to Saturn Is or -IBs or whatever? How many times do we need to test an Earth orbit before we do a lunar orbit test? It's just all that kind of stuff. Everybody had different ideas about it.\n\n I tended to be less conservative than most and would do fewer tests than a lot would. I didn't stay in that job but less than a year, but ultimately it came out about the number of flights that I thought it should take. Some people were saying we ought to fly two or three or four times that many flights just to get confidence. Well, hell, once the thing's working, go to the Moon with it.

[Assistant] Let me follow up with George [E.] Mueller and the all-up testing. How did you feel about that, where they would test the Saturn V with all functional components, rather than doing it stage by stage?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Developing the flight test program for the Apollo spacecraft.

[Assistant] That involved—?

[User] Oh, boy, that involved just a whole range of things, you know. How many flights do we need? What's the best way to test them? What kind of instrumentation should we use? When do we need to start using Saturn Vs as opposed to Saturn Is or -IBs or whatever? How many times do we need to test an Earth orbit before we do a lunar orbit test? It's just all that kind of stuff. Everybody had different ideas about it.\n\n I tended to be less conservative than most and would do fewer tests than a lot would. I didn't stay in that job but less than a year, but ultimately it came out about the number of flights that I thought it should take. Some people were saying we ought to fly two or three or four times that many flights just to get confidence. Well, hell, once the thing's working, go to the Moon with it.

[Assistant] Let me follow up with George [E.] Mueller and the all-up testing. How did you feel about that, where they would test the Saturn V with all functional components, rather than doing it stage by stage?

[User] I thought that was great. I think von Braun was in favor of that, too. Was it Mueller that kind of invented that philosophy?

[Assistant] He is usually given credit for that, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, boy, that involved just a whole range of things, you know. How many flights do we need? What's the best way to test them? What kind of instrumentation should we use? When do we need to start using Saturn Vs as opposed to Saturn Is or -IBs or whatever? How many times do we need to test an Earth orbit before we do a lunar orbit test? It's just all that kind of stuff. Everybody had different ideas about it.\n\n I tended to be less conservative than most and would do fewer tests than a lot would. I didn't stay in that job but less than a year, but ultimately it came out about the number of flights that I thought it should take. Some people were saying we ought to fly two or three or four times that many flights just to get confidence. Well, hell, once the thing's working, go to the Moon with it.

[Assistant] Let me follow up with George [E.] Mueller and the all-up testing. How did you feel about that, where they would test the Saturn V with all functional components, rather than doing it stage by stage?

[User] I thought that was great. I think von Braun was in favor of that, too. Was it Mueller that kind of invented that philosophy?

[Assistant] He is usually given credit for that, yes.

[User] Is he? Okay. I wasn't really aware of that. I kind of thought that was von Braun's own personal idea, but it might have been Mueller sticking it down von Braun's throat. I don't know. But, yes, I always believed when you test something, test it in as full a configuration as you possibly can.

[Assistant] There's certainly a lot of payoff that you can get through that in terms of time and saving dollars, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought that was great. I think von Braun was in favor of that, too. Was it Mueller that kind of invented that philosophy?

[Assistant] He is usually given credit for that, yes.

[User] Is he? Okay. I wasn't really aware of that. I kind of thought that was von Braun's own personal idea, but it might have been Mueller sticking it down von Braun's throat. I don't know. But, yes, I always believed when you test something, test it in as full a configuration as you possibly can.

[Assistant] There's certainly a lot of payoff that you can get through that in terms of time and saving dollars, I guess.

[User] Yes. Apollo had a very short flight test program. It was extremely short.

[Assistant] After ten months, you moved out to this area. How did that opportunity come about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was a pretty doggone successful propulsion system. It was pretty benign. It didn't create us a lot of problems, unlike the lunar ascent system which that engine went through a couple of different—they took it away from one contractor and gave it to another a time or two before they finally found somebody that they felt like they wanted to leave the contract with.

[Assistant] Mr. Thibodaux was relating some of the problems they were having with the injector system on the ascent stage.

[User] Yes. They really had performance problems. They weren't getting the performance out of it that they needed.

[Assistant] And that was showing up on your test stands?

[User] Yes. It was also showing up at the manufacturer's test facilities as well. Guy was intimately involved with all of that sort of thing, much more so than I was, because at that point I was more LM facilities related and I wasn't paying all that much attention to SPS testing. But that was Guy's responsibility. He had to make sure that they had a proper propulsion system when the time came to use it.

[Assistant] As you were in charge of the LM facilities, how did you go about deciding what you needed for that and setting it up for the system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they learned from experience. That wasn't the only kind of a run-in like I had with them. When I was over in the 400 Area on the LM program, two or three times they did some kind of facility maintenance task without coordinating with me or with Grumman people or whoever, you know, to know what our schedule was, and it really screwed things up. They'd get their hands slapped severely every time. Finally, they pretty well learned.\n\n The O&M contractors we had after Zia weren't quite as belligerent. They had been here in other roles anyway, so as time progressed, the relationships between NASA and the contractors got better and better.

[Assistant] Did any of the issues with the prime contractors show up at White Sands?

[User] How do you mean?

[Assistant] With North American or Grumman, did you have any big issues with the work you were doing with them?

[User] Not really that I can remember. That LM ascent engine was always a problem, but Thibodaux was mainly taking care of that at the contractor level. I can't even remember whether we fired one of those. Who was it that was building that engine? It was Bell, wasn't it, that started out on that engine and was having so much trouble with it? I don't remember whether we fired a Bell version here or not. I think we did, but I just can't remember for sure.

[Assistant] Were the contractors then satisfied with the test regimen you were putting their engines through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How do you mean?

[Assistant] With North American or Grumman, did you have any big issues with the work you were doing with them?

[User] Not really that I can remember. That LM ascent engine was always a problem, but Thibodaux was mainly taking care of that at the contractor level. I can't even remember whether we fired one of those. Who was it that was building that engine? It was Bell, wasn't it, that started out on that engine and was having so much trouble with it? I don't remember whether we fired a Bell version here or not. I think we did, but I just can't remember for sure.

[Assistant] Were the contractors then satisfied with the test regimen you were putting their engines through?

[User] Well, yes, because they were intimately involved in coming up with that test regimen. In fact, they were responsible for coming up with that test regimen subject to our approval and Thibodaux and his people's approval. Thibodaux's people looked at it from, "Are we learning what we needed to learn about the propulsion system?" We looked at it more from the point of view "Is it compatible with the facility and our capabilities and all that sort of thing?" And it worked pretty good.

[Assistant] In terms of contractor relations, the Apollo 1 fire had some repercussions. Did the fire cause any changes out of White Sands?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really that I can remember. That LM ascent engine was always a problem, but Thibodaux was mainly taking care of that at the contractor level. I can't even remember whether we fired one of those. Who was it that was building that engine? It was Bell, wasn't it, that started out on that engine and was having so much trouble with it? I don't remember whether we fired a Bell version here or not. I think we did, but I just can't remember for sure.

[Assistant] Were the contractors then satisfied with the test regimen you were putting their engines through?

[User] Well, yes, because they were intimately involved in coming up with that test regimen. In fact, they were responsible for coming up with that test regimen subject to our approval and Thibodaux and his people's approval. Thibodaux's people looked at it from, "Are we learning what we needed to learn about the propulsion system?" We looked at it more from the point of view "Is it compatible with the facility and our capabilities and all that sort of thing?" And it worked pretty good.

[Assistant] In terms of contractor relations, the Apollo 1 fire had some repercussions. Did the fire cause any changes out of White Sands?

[User] Yes, it sure did. It just invented our materials test program out here. It gave it a real quick boost. We had just kind of dabbled a little, the laboratory people, had just dabbled a little bit in testing certain kinds of materials, maybe for reasons of their own, I don't remember whether they were involved with any of the people at JSC in doing this or not, but, boy, that sure gave it a kick in the rear, I'll tell you, when they had all that problem with flammable materials in the cabin and that sort of thing. We got into a materials test program that ultimately we became the materials test experts for the agency. Marshall would never admit that, but we were anyway.

[Assistant] Why do you think that ended up at White Sands? Was there a logical reason behind that, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure that there were logical reasons behind a lot of things that happened at NASA. But we had a good test facility. We had a good laboratory. It was being under-utilized. We had good support contractors that were willing to work for a dollar, work for their pay instead of loafing and all that kind of thing. I think it just—we didn't have any unions at that time, which kind of simplified matters management-wise and productivity-wise.\n\n It was just something, I think it just kind of grew like Topsy. We started doing this little thing and this little thing and that little thing, and pretty soon we had a whole mountain of things we were doing in terms of materials testing. It became our mainstay, along with propulsion testing. The two were just about equally important by the time we got to the Shuttle program. We did most of the materials testing with the Shuttle program, at least for everything that we were responsible, that JSC was responsible for, which was everything except for the main engines, just about.

[Assistant] I want to also ask you about some of the people you worked with on the Apollo program. Who do you think were some of the key individuals that really made a contribution?

[User] To the Apollo program?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] George [M.] Low, first and foremost. Of course, there were thousands of people that made important contributions.

[Assistant] Well, ones that perhaps you had a chance to work with on a close level.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To the Apollo program?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] George [M.] Low, first and foremost. Of course, there were thousands of people that made important contributions.

[Assistant] Well, ones that perhaps you had a chance to work with on a close level.

[User] I think George Low was probably the key guy in the Apollo program. He took over as the ASPO manager right after the fire, and he really got the program back on its feet again.\n\n But Max [Maxime A.] Faget, golly sakes, he had an awful lot to do with it Apollo. In fact, I think it was Faget who invented, and ultimately got approved, the lunar orbit rendezvous concept.\n\n Joe [Joseph F.] Shea was important. It was kind of on his shift that the fire happened. There was just so many people. All the flight test people. Chris Kraft, another very, very important element. Then, you know, give me a phone book with all their names in it and I can— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Sure. Of course, there were many, many people that were involved in and made just such great contributions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] George [M.] Low, first and foremost. Of course, there were thousands of people that made important contributions.

[Assistant] Well, ones that perhaps you had a chance to work with on a close level.

[User] I think George Low was probably the key guy in the Apollo program. He took over as the ASPO manager right after the fire, and he really got the program back on its feet again.\n\n But Max [Maxime A.] Faget, golly sakes, he had an awful lot to do with it Apollo. In fact, I think it was Faget who invented, and ultimately got approved, the lunar orbit rendezvous concept.\n\n Joe [Joseph F.] Shea was important. It was kind of on his shift that the fire happened. There was just so many people. All the flight test people. Chris Kraft, another very, very important element. Then, you know, give me a phone book with all their names in it and I can— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Sure. Of course, there were many, many people that were involved in and made just such great contributions.

[User] Chris was a super guy. Too bad he couldn't stay as the JSC director forever. He was sure the best one they ever had. And don't tell Aaron Cohen I said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We'll try not to mention it to him. Speaking of JSC, JSC was White Sands' parent organization, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think George Low was probably the key guy in the Apollo program. He took over as the ASPO manager right after the fire, and he really got the program back on its feet again.\n\n But Max [Maxime A.] Faget, golly sakes, he had an awful lot to do with it Apollo. In fact, I think it was Faget who invented, and ultimately got approved, the lunar orbit rendezvous concept.\n\n Joe [Joseph F.] Shea was important. It was kind of on his shift that the fire happened. There was just so many people. All the flight test people. Chris Kraft, another very, very important element. Then, you know, give me a phone book with all their names in it and I can— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Sure. Of course, there were many, many people that were involved in and made just such great contributions.

[User] Chris was a super guy. Too bad he couldn't stay as the JSC director forever. He was sure the best one they ever had. And don't tell Aaron Cohen I said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We'll try not to mention it to him. Speaking of JSC, JSC was White Sands' parent organization, I guess.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that relationship work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chris was a super guy. Too bad he couldn't stay as the JSC director forever. He was sure the best one they ever had. And don't tell Aaron Cohen I said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We'll try not to mention it to him. Speaking of JSC, JSC was White Sands' parent organization, I guess.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that relationship work?

[User] You know, for a long time that was kind of muddied water. We never really had a parent organization in Houston. We never really had stature on the picture pages of the phone book and that kind of thing. Finally, Chris kind of started it, and he was the guy who was probably more responsible for me getting the job as base manager out here than anybody else. Actually, it was Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin that made the selection, because Chris had gone by that time. But Chris had filled Gerry's ear, I think, pretty good, because there were some pretty stiff competition for that job. A couple guys from the Cape and another guy from out here, Dave [David L.] Pippen.\n\n But I guess probably because of Chris's intervention, it was probably never a whole lot of question that I would be selected. Griffin was very happy with the selection. Gerry changed the management structure, and he had—what'd they call them? Vice-presidents? They were like super directors or whatever, but there were three of them. Bill [William R.] Kelly was one, he was in charge of admin, all of the administration functions and a lot of other things as well. White Sands was one of the other things. So I reported to Bill, the best boss I ever worked for, really a good guy. We really got along good together, and he helped me get White Sands established in the JSC hierarchy.

[Assistant] Getting back to Apollo for a few minutes, did you follow the flights as they were going, I mean from a professional standpoint?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite secure. We were well involved in OMS and RCS testing at that point, and it had a future. So by that point in time, we were over the hurdle of being shut down.

[Assistant] You mentioned a little bit before about how you became manager about—

[User] About Chris?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I started out out here, well, just watching the facility construction for Henry Van Goey. Then I was responsible for overseeing the initial test programs on the boilerplate test article. By the time Spacecraft 1 came along, I had another guy that I had assigned to Spacecraft 1, and didn't have to spend a lot of time with it. But I was kind of what they called the chief operations director, and I stayed that way until the summer of '68.\n\n Marty Raines was leaving. He knew he was going to be leaving. Bill Gantz was going to be made the site manager. So they made Bill the assistant site manager for a period of time so he would get familiar with what Marty was doing before Marty left. So they needed somebody to be in charge of the propulsion test organization, and they gave the job to me. I got my 15 out of it. Boy, I stayed a 15 forever, it seemed like to me, from '68 to 1982.\n\n What was the question?

[Assistant] We were talking about how you became the site manager.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, involved in all aspects of a lot of things associated with Shuttle, still doing OMS and RCS work, heavily involved in materials. Probably had just as much manpower in materials testing as we did in propulsion by that stage. Other kinds of systems testing that, you know, a special problem would arise, like the Viking thing that I mentioned to you, but not that one, because that one was all gone by that time. Any special problems like that, we were always prepared to jump to and tackle anything, reassign people as necessary to get any particular request done as quickly as possible, by whenever they needed it. If it took working twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, that's what we did.

[Assistant] Did the Shuttle landing facility also fall under your—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us a little bit about that?

[User] Northrup Strip, now known as White Sands Space Harbor. I liked Northrup Strip better. Al [Alexander S.] Paczynski worked for me out here, and he was kind of responsible for that. He worked pretty close with flight crew people. I think he went down there and gave a slide presentation or something, if I remember correctly, to some of the people, flight crew operations. I don't know whether it was the astronaut office was specifically, but—who was the flight crew director then? Oh, boy. That goes back a long ways. Warren [J.] North, probably. Or possibly the seventh Apollo astronaut. What's his name?

[Assistant] [Donald K.] Deke Slayton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. Well, I'd better back off of that. Yes, I guess we did. We had a little propulsion module. The attitude and reboost systems on the original Space Station configuration, and that's probably the '84 configuration you're talking about, we did some test work on that, in Test Stand 302. I don't know why I'm so vague on that, but I just don't remember much about what went on there. I think it was a very short-lived program, for one thing, because designs were changing all the time and that sort of thing. That was supplied by Rockwell.

[Assistant] What impact did the Challenger accident have on White Sands? Was it similar to after the Apollo 1 fire?

[User] It concentrated our materials testing on booster seals and seal materials and things like that. We did quite a bit of work associated with that, but it was all materials. It was just little bits here and pieces of that kind of stuff that they needed done.

[Assistant] Had you done that kind of work on the seals before that?

[User] No, I'd never seen the seal material before then.

[Assistant] Then were you beginning to see it just as part of the investigation or this was after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It concentrated our materials testing on booster seals and seal materials and things like that. We did quite a bit of work associated with that, but it was all materials. It was just little bits here and pieces of that kind of stuff that they needed done.

[Assistant] Had you done that kind of work on the seals before that?

[User] No, I'd never seen the seal material before then.

[Assistant] Then were you beginning to see it just as part of the investigation or this was after that?

[User] Kind of both. We sent people to the Cape as part of the investigating team as well, that assembled all the pieces of the Challenger in that one hangar and tried to get as much information out as they could. They were kind of constrained from talking about that even to me, so I never did learn a lot about what they contributed.\n\n One of them was Frank Benz [phonetic], who was the director of something or other in Houston. No, I think he was a division chief. Real capable guy. He was head of the laboratories for a while here.

[Assistant] Do you recall any other significant projects or areas that you worked in before you retired, that we haven't covered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A lot of people have said, "When I get reincarnated as a dog, I want to live with the Tilletts." [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, I can see why.\n\n Looking back on your experience with the space program as a whole, what do you think your greatest contribution to it was?

[User] That's a tough question. Boy, I think just being here and keeping things going in whatever area I was responsible for, and making sure that I did my best to not let something slip through the cracks. That's not very grandiose, but whatever my responsibility was at the time, I took it seriously.

[Assistant] In a similar vein, what do you think the most difficult moment was for you?

[User] When I was sitting out here in the visitor area next to my office watching the TV when the Challenger went. I just couldn't believe it. But, you know, before anybody on TV said anything, you immediately know something's wrong. You know what you're looking for. I knew it probably within a second of when I saw the rocket motor blew, just from watching. That was pretty tough. I stuck around for about thirty minutes and I had visitors from JSC, and I just finally told them, you know, "I'm done for the day. I'm going home."

[Assistant] It was certainly a difficult time for everybody involved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a tough question. Boy, I think just being here and keeping things going in whatever area I was responsible for, and making sure that I did my best to not let something slip through the cracks. That's not very grandiose, but whatever my responsibility was at the time, I took it seriously.

[Assistant] In a similar vein, what do you think the most difficult moment was for you?

[User] When I was sitting out here in the visitor area next to my office watching the TV when the Challenger went. I just couldn't believe it. But, you know, before anybody on TV said anything, you immediately know something's wrong. You know what you're looking for. I knew it probably within a second of when I saw the rocket motor blew, just from watching. That was pretty tough. I stuck around for about thirty minutes and I had visitors from JSC, and I just finally told them, you know, "I'm done for the day. I'm going home."

[Assistant] It was certainly a difficult time for everybody involved.

[User] Everybody.

[Assistant] Are there any other people that you'd like to mention that we haven't already talked about, that you think really had a valuable contribution?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea at all. But you know, an interesting thing with that. There's always a class prophecy for the high school senior class. I was working at White Sands, New Mexico, in that class prophecy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's amazing.

[User] What they were thinking of, that was shortly after the atomic bomb and all, they thought I'd probably be working in nuclear physics. Unfortunately, I quit school before I was far enough advanced in physics to be of any use in nuclear physics. But I thought that was kind of interesting that my prophecy came true, at least geographically, if not functionally.

[Assistant]
That is quite an amazing coincidence. I'd also like to ask Carol if she has any questions for you.

I have one. Did you go back to a high school reunion and tell them that you were working at White Sands?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's amazing.

[User] What they were thinking of, that was shortly after the atomic bomb and all, they thought I'd probably be working in nuclear physics. Unfortunately, I quit school before I was far enough advanced in physics to be of any use in nuclear physics. But I thought that was kind of interesting that my prophecy came true, at least geographically, if not functionally.

[Assistant]
That is quite an amazing coincidence. I'd also like to ask Carol if she has any questions for you.

I have one. Did you go back to a high school reunion and tell them that you were working at White Sands?

[User] Oh, yes. They already knew it, because my sister-in-law's sister, I don't know what makes her to me, but, anyway, she was one of the class of '49 graduates along with me, and she made sure that everybody knew that that prophecy had come true.\n\n I didn't go to some of the earlier reunions. I went to the 30th and the 41st—you might ask why 41—and the 50th. The 50th was last summer. That was fun. The 41st, they had a reunion of all the classes, the graduating classes, from '38 to '51. That was interesting, because a lot of your friends tend to be a year older or a year younger or two years older or younger, and we got to see people that we would never ever been able to see any other way. That was sure a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Unless there are any other areas that you'd like to talk about, those are all the questions I had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What they were thinking of, that was shortly after the atomic bomb and all, they thought I'd probably be working in nuclear physics. Unfortunately, I quit school before I was far enough advanced in physics to be of any use in nuclear physics. But I thought that was kind of interesting that my prophecy came true, at least geographically, if not functionally.

[Assistant]
That is quite an amazing coincidence. I'd also like to ask Carol if she has any questions for you.

I have one. Did you go back to a high school reunion and tell them that you were working at White Sands?

[User] Oh, yes. They already knew it, because my sister-in-law's sister, I don't know what makes her to me, but, anyway, she was one of the class of '49 graduates along with me, and she made sure that everybody knew that that prophecy had come true.\n\n I didn't go to some of the earlier reunions. I went to the 30th and the 41st—you might ask why 41—and the 50th. The 50th was last summer. That was fun. The 41st, they had a reunion of all the classes, the graduating classes, from '38 to '51. That was interesting, because a lot of your friends tend to be a year older or a year younger or two years older or younger, and we got to see people that we would never ever been able to see any other way. That was sure a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Unless there are any other areas that you'd like to talk about, those are all the questions I had.

[User] We'll probably get into, you know, if Grady and I can jog each other's memories tomorrow, why, we'll probably get into some more of these sidetracks, but that's about all I can think of right for the moment.

[Assistant] Great. Well, then I'd like to thank you for participating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, I was in college. I was in college the year before. And when I was a sophomore in college, I took a test, the Peace Corps test, and was interested in joining then. I took the Peace Corps test and I said, I think I need to finish college.

[Assistant] Where were you in college?

[User] I was at Hamline University in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

[Assistant] And what was your major or what were you studying?

[User] Uh, I majored in history.

[Assistant] And what was your intent? I mean, did you have a career goal at that point or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I majored in history.

[Assistant] And what was your intent? I mean, did you have a career goal at that point or?

[User] No, I had no career goal, actually. When I was, I didn't. The spring of my senior year, I did not have a job and I wasn't successful applying for jobs. And so the Peace Corps recruiters came and it just sounded like a good deal to me.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I sent in my application and almost right away I got a telegram. I mean, I guess you don't send telegrams anymore, but I got a telegram. And it's saying I'd been accepted into, you know, Peace Corps in India, about less than a month after I applied. That was great. I knew what I was going to do for the next two years.

[Assistant] Great. Well, let's go back. Where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had no career goal, actually. When I was, I didn't. The spring of my senior year, I did not have a job and I wasn't successful applying for jobs. And so the Peace Corps recruiters came and it just sounded like a good deal to me.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I sent in my application and almost right away I got a telegram. I mean, I guess you don't send telegrams anymore, but I got a telegram. And it's saying I'd been accepted into, you know, Peace Corps in India, about less than a month after I applied. That was great. I knew what I was going to do for the next two years.

[Assistant] Great. Well, let's go back. Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up on a farm in Wood, near Wood Lake, Minnesota. And I know I had that, some of the things, it actually prepared me for a lot in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And large family, small family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sent in my application and almost right away I got a telegram. I mean, I guess you don't send telegrams anymore, but I got a telegram. And it's saying I'd been accepted into, you know, Peace Corps in India, about less than a month after I applied. That was great. I knew what I was going to do for the next two years.

[Assistant] Great. Well, let's go back. Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up on a farm in Wood, near Wood Lake, Minnesota. And I know I had that, some of the things, it actually prepared me for a lot in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And large family, small family?

[User] It was a large family. I have three sisters, three brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] And did you go, where did you go to high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up on a farm in Wood, near Wood Lake, Minnesota. And I know I had that, some of the things, it actually prepared me for a lot in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And large family, small family?

[User] It was a large family. I have three sisters, three brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] And did you go, where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to one school for 12 years, Wood Lake Public, and I had no kindergarten, just that's where I went to school. And then I went to Hamline.

[Assistant] And during your high school, did you do any volunteer work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a large family. I have three sisters, three brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] And did you go, where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to one school for 12 years, Wood Lake Public, and I had no kindergarten, just that's where I went to school. And then I went to Hamline.

[Assistant] And during your high school, did you do any volunteer work?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I was, I was active in my NYF youth fellowship and I was active in 4-H. I actually got a 4-H Key Club.

[Assistant] This is in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I was, I was active in my NYF youth fellowship and I was active in 4-H. I actually got a 4-H Key Club.

[Assistant] This is in high school?

[User] Yes, in high school. Right. Which, Key Club is as high as you can go in 4-H.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh, I helped publish the yearbook in high school. And also I was a yearbook editor in college too.

[Assistant] In high school, were you able to do any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in high school. Right. Which, Key Club is as high as you can go in 4-H.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh, I helped publish the yearbook in high school. And also I was a yearbook editor in college too.

[Assistant] In high school, were you able to do any travel?

[User] No, my, we were on the farm. My parents didn't travel much. When I was in sixth grade, my neighbor invited me to go with their family to the Black Hills and I decided to go. And my sixth grade teacher did not like it because I was ruining my perfect attendance at school. But I said yes, I'm going.

[Assistant] Okay, so that was it. But were you the first in your family to go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, my, we were on the farm. My parents didn't travel much. When I was in sixth grade, my neighbor invited me to go with their family to the Black Hills and I decided to go. And my sixth grade teacher did not like it because I was ruining my perfect attendance at school. But I said yes, I'm going.

[Assistant] Okay, so that was it. But were you the first in your family to go to college?

[User] Oh, no, my, I have an older sister. She graduated from Macalester and I went to Hamline.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] My parents, my mother had gone to college for a couple of years.

[Assistant] So when you finished high school, you would decide next step was college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, my, I have an older sister. She graduated from Macalester and I went to Hamline.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] My parents, my mother had gone to college for a couple of years.

[Assistant] So when you finished high school, you would decide next step was college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you ended up studying history, not being quite sure what your goal was. Did you expect to be a teacher or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you ended up studying history, not being quite sure what your goal was. Did you expect to be a teacher or?

[User] At first, when I first went to college, I thought I would be a teacher, but and I thought I was going to major in English or math, which I had done well in high school. But I didn't, I took. What threw me off is I was put in advanced classes from tests in both English and math. And compared to people from big city schools, I shouldn't have been in advanced classes. And that hurt me. It threw me off. So it took a while to adjust to that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, if I had just been in regular classes, I would have been fine. But trying to put me in advanced classes when I really wasn't prepared for it.

[Assistant] During your four years of college, did you do any travel, any volunteer work? Did you study any foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I didn't travel around when I was in college. I had worked in the summers and I did do volunteer work when I was, uh, one of the first things, just community activist. I volunteered to, uh, go in. This was in, you know, in the sixties. Right when I was a freshman, '62 or '63, I volunteered to go into a suburban Minneapolis or a suburban neighborhood and ask them about a Black family. I think when one had moved in or done anything, that was my activist. And it was it was a little shocking to hear that. But I mean, Minnesota was like 98 percent white.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was a big deal.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] For someone doing that. I like I said, I published The Liner and I was in a sorority in college.

[Assistant] Do you remember, do you remember when you first heard of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For someone doing that. I like I said, I published The Liner and I was in a sorority in college.

[Assistant] Do you remember, do you remember when you first heard of the Peace Corps?

[User] I think that I heard it right at the very beginning. Well, I mean, Minnesota. Hubert Humphrey was from Minnesota. And Hubert Humphrey got some credit for the Peace Corps, at least in Minnesota.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So, yes, we did hear about it at the very beginning and said I wanted to go into it.

[Assistant] And as it developed to go in the Peace Corps, what was the reaction of your family and your friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that I heard it right at the very beginning. Well, I mean, Minnesota. Hubert Humphrey was from Minnesota. And Hubert Humphrey got some credit for the Peace Corps, at least in Minnesota.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So, yes, we did hear about it at the very beginning and said I wanted to go into it.

[Assistant] And as it developed to go in the Peace Corps, what was the reaction of your family and your friends?

[User] Well, my friends, especially from college, thought it was great. My family, my father especially thought, what? You were raised on a farm. You went there. Now you go to college and now you want to go to India for two years and work in a, you know, you know, on a farm or do all that. And applied nutrition we were working with.

[Assistant] And what did you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my friends, especially from college, thought it was great. My family, my father especially thought, what? You were raised on a farm. You went there. Now you go to college and now you want to go to India for two years and work in a, you know, you know, on a farm or do all that. And applied nutrition we were working with.

[Assistant] And what did you say?

[User] I said I was.

[Assistant] I'm going.

[User] I'm going. Right. So he didn't have much to say about it, but he didn't. He didn't, he thought I should be, you know, working, getting a job or just something else. My mother thought it was great. My mother always wanted to travel, and she loved the fact that I could travel.

[Assistant] Well, so as you came near graduation, you had already been accepted to the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I applied in May. I graduated on 6-6-66 [June 6, 1966].

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I went into the Peace Corps about a week afterwards or ten weeks after was the first time I flew in an airplane. I flew from Minneapolis to Boston and we were supposed to fly to Lebanon, near where Hanover, where Dartmouth is.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] But we couldn't, that was, visibility was poor. So they actually, we went by car from Boston.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was the first, your first time flying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went into the Peace Corps about a week afterwards or ten weeks after was the first time I flew in an airplane. I flew from Minneapolis to Boston and we were supposed to fly to Lebanon, near where Hanover, where Dartmouth is.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] But we couldn't, that was, visibility was poor. So they actually, we went by car from Boston.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was the first, your first time flying?

[User] First time flying.

[Assistant] But when you received the telegram from Peace Corps saying you've been accepted for training and India, at that point did you have any second thoughts? I mean, now the idea of Peace Corps has suddenly become a reality.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First time flying.

[Assistant] But when you received the telegram from Peace Corps saying you've been accepted for training and India, at that point did you have any second thoughts? I mean, now the idea of Peace Corps has suddenly become a reality.

[User] No, I didn't have any second thoughts. One thing, though, I did not know until I got to Peace Corps, until I got there, is that, I mean, I didn't have to do anything. I was, I was going straight out of college. I didn't own anything. I just, you know, if I go there and it didn't work out, I would get something else. But when I was in the Peace Corps, unlike what it is now I think, is we were at, there were 70 people invited for training or 75 or something and only 50 made it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was competitive. You didn't necessarily go to training and become a volunteer.

[Assistant] Well, we'll talk about that. So, uh, you, you are accepted into a program in applied nutrition, but you had no background in studying nutrition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't have any second thoughts. One thing, though, I did not know until I got to Peace Corps, until I got there, is that, I mean, I didn't have to do anything. I was, I was going straight out of college. I didn't own anything. I just, you know, if I go there and it didn't work out, I would get something else. But when I was in the Peace Corps, unlike what it is now I think, is we were at, there were 70 people invited for training or 75 or something and only 50 made it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it was competitive. You didn't necessarily go to training and become a volunteer.

[Assistant] Well, we'll talk about that. So, uh, you, you are accepted into a program in applied nutrition, but you had no background in studying nutrition?

[User] No, but I think it's, I think it said something about it was an agriculture program or something. Because with the applied nutrition program, we started nursery schools with the mid-day meal, but there were people that were nurses and nurses and, you know, Peace Corps nurses and nurses, and there were people that worked with poultry and some people worked with eggs.

[Assistant] So you think it was because you grew up on a farm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was competitive. You didn't necessarily go to training and become a volunteer.

[Assistant] Well, we'll talk about that. So, uh, you, you are accepted into a program in applied nutrition, but you had no background in studying nutrition?

[User] No, but I think it's, I think it said something about it was an agriculture program or something. Because with the applied nutrition program, we started nursery schools with the mid-day meal, but there were people that were nurses and nurses and, you know, Peace Corps nurses and nurses, and there were people that worked with poultry and some people worked with eggs.

[Assistant] So you think it was because you grew up on a farm?

[User] Yes, it helped me. And I think there was something about the overall description. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Now you report to Dartmouth, you flew, got into Boston and they took you up to and you're at Dartmouth College. Is that where the training is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but I think it's, I think it said something about it was an agriculture program or something. Because with the applied nutrition program, we started nursery schools with the mid-day meal, but there were people that were nurses and nurses and, you know, Peace Corps nurses and nurses, and there were people that worked with poultry and some people worked with eggs.

[Assistant] So you think it was because you grew up on a farm?

[User] Yes, it helped me. And I think there was something about the overall description. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Now you report to Dartmouth, you flew, got into Boston and they took you up to and you're at Dartmouth College. Is that where the training is?

[User] Well, that's where we were told. So we spent a whole week at Dartmouth and then we went to the hills of Vermont.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to just the very first getting together in Dartmouth. Now you're in the presence of, what, 70 other people who've joined the Peace Corps, and it's your first chance to look at others who made the same decision as you. Do you recall your reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's where we were told. So we spent a whole week at Dartmouth and then we went to the hills of Vermont.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to just the very first getting together in Dartmouth. Now you're in the presence of, what, 70 other people who've joined the Peace Corps, and it's your first chance to look at others who made the same decision as you. Do you recall your reaction?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Not really. Not my first reaction.

[Assistant] You felt comfortable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Not really. Not my first reaction.

[Assistant] You felt comfortable?

[User] I think I was just, yeah, I was just taking it all in.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. And so you spent a week at Dartmouth, and what went on during that first week.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. Not my first reaction.

[Assistant] You felt comfortable?

[User] I think I was just, yeah, I was just taking it all in.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. And so you spent a week at Dartmouth, and what went on during that first week.

[User] In the, we basically got settled into what we were doing, had some classes. I'm not even sure we spent a week, because we, right away they told us we would be going to a ski resort and we would be. The couple, there were some couples there. They would be building their own places to live for the evening, their cots, their little tents that they had. And we, uh, we were in more of the camping. The girls were all just.

[Assistant] What time of year was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the, we basically got settled into what we were doing, had some classes. I'm not even sure we spent a week, because we, right away they told us we would be going to a ski resort and we would be. The couple, there were some couples there. They would be building their own places to live for the evening, their cots, their little tents that they had. And we, uh, we were in more of the camping. The girls were all just.

[Assistant] What time of year was it?

[User] It was in the summer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It was a really, we went in June. We left in September, but it was very cold, wet summer.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, the group was mostly women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in the summer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It was a really, we went in June. We left in September, but it was very cold, wet summer.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, the group was mostly women?

[User] No, no, no. Most, when I was there.

[Assistant] In the training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. Most, when I was there.

[Assistant] In the training group?

[User] Right. The training group was mostly men. Actually, I mean, this was in 1966 and there were just a lot of the men getting out of the, not going to Vietnam for the war.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And so, no, they were mostly, mostly men I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you then go from Dartmouth to the ski resort where you build your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. The training group was mostly men. Actually, I mean, this was in 1966 and there were just a lot of the men getting out of the, not going to Vietnam for the war.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And so, no, they were mostly, mostly men I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you then go from Dartmouth to the ski resort where you build your own?

[User] Right. We, we didn't, the women didn't have to build our own, but we were pretty rustic and we had no heat. Like I said, it was cold. We slept in our sleeping bags. And in the end, because we were doing with the nursery school, they ended up bringing up some children, boys from the slum. I don't know if they were, I got, was assigned a boy. I think they were all boys from the slums in New Haven that they said, and we were supposed to practice with them and they absolutely wore us out.

[Assistant] So what were you practicing? Just working with the child?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, no, they were mostly, mostly men I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you then go from Dartmouth to the ski resort where you build your own?

[User] Right. We, we didn't, the women didn't have to build our own, but we were pretty rustic and we had no heat. Like I said, it was cold. We slept in our sleeping bags. And in the end, because we were doing with the nursery school, they ended up bringing up some children, boys from the slum. I don't know if they were, I got, was assigned a boy. I think they were all boys from the slums in New Haven that they said, and we were supposed to practice with them and they absolutely wore us out.

[Assistant] So what were you practicing? Just working with the child?

[User] Just working with them. Right. And they thought it would be a good idea. But studying the language, learning everything else, it was hard.

[Assistant] Now, who, do you remember who ran the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. We, we didn't, the women didn't have to build our own, but we were pretty rustic and we had no heat. Like I said, it was cold. We slept in our sleeping bags. And in the end, because we were doing with the nursery school, they ended up bringing up some children, boys from the slum. I don't know if they were, I got, was assigned a boy. I think they were all boys from the slums in New Haven that they said, and we were supposed to practice with them and they absolutely wore us out.

[Assistant] So what were you practicing? Just working with the child?

[User] Just working with them. Right. And they thought it would be a good idea. But studying the language, learning everything else, it was hard.

[Assistant] Now, who, do you remember who ran the program?

[User] Uh, Wright. I forget his first name.

[Assistant] Was it, was it under Dartmouth or was it some company or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, no. I think that these people probably did. And they had it.

[Assistant] Yeah,

[User] They were the, Wright was the one who was in charge and did all that. He had some, he was more affiliated with Yale because that's where he came from, New Haven and everything. And a lot of the staff were all returned volunteers.

[Assistant] From India?

[User] A lot of them, it must have been in India, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Most training programs have several components. One is language. Language training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were the, Wright was the one who was in charge and did all that. He had some, he was more affiliated with Yale because that's where he came from, New Haven and everything. And a lot of the staff were all returned volunteers.

[Assistant] From India?

[User] A lot of them, it must have been in India, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Most training programs have several components. One is language. Language training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the language training you had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of them, it must have been in India, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Most training programs have several components. One is language. Language training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the language training you had.

[User] We learned Telugu and we did have English. I mean, Indian, you know, speaking who is native tongue was Telugu.

[Assistant] Now where is Telugu spoken?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the language training you had.

[User] We learned Telugu and we did have English. I mean, Indian, you know, speaking who is native tongue was Telugu.

[Assistant] Now where is Telugu spoken?

[User] Telugu is spoken in the state of Andhra Pradesh which is in South India.

[Assistant] Oh, in the south.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We learned Telugu and we did have English. I mean, Indian, you know, speaking who is native tongue was Telugu.

[Assistant] Now where is Telugu spoken?

[User] Telugu is spoken in the state of Andhra Pradesh which is in South India.

[Assistant] Oh, in the south.

[User] Yeah. It's, where we were as in the very south. Hyderabad is the capital of Andhra and we were closer by bus to either go to Madras or Bangalore.

[Assistant] And was the entire group learning Telugu? And you are all going to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Telugu is spoken in the state of Andhra Pradesh which is in South India.

[Assistant] Oh, in the south.

[User] Yeah. It's, where we were as in the very south. Hyderabad is the capital of Andhra and we were closer by bus to either go to Madras or Bangalore.

[Assistant] And was the entire group learning Telugu? And you are all going to?

[User] All of us were going to Andhra. This was at a time when, after Indira Gandhi and Johnson had written, had a proposal, and the United States was giving money or something. And they had a lot of Peace Corps volunteers that went with it. We had, just in our state, we maybe had three or 400. I didn't even know all the volunteers in Andhra.

[Assistant] It was an enormous project, India was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It's, where we were as in the very south. Hyderabad is the capital of Andhra and we were closer by bus to either go to Madras or Bangalore.

[Assistant] And was the entire group learning Telugu? And you are all going to?

[User] All of us were going to Andhra. This was at a time when, after Indira Gandhi and Johnson had written, had a proposal, and the United States was giving money or something. And they had a lot of Peace Corps volunteers that went with it. We had, just in our state, we maybe had three or 400. I didn't even know all the volunteers in Andhra.

[Assistant] It was an enormous project, India was.

[User] India was enormous project. We had, every state had like two doctors assigned to, Peace Corps, doctors assigned to the Peace Corps there.

[Assistant] Well, we'll get to, let's stay in training and then we'll get overseas. So there was language training. Were you told that you had to get up to a certain proficiency in language or you wouldn't go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of us were going to Andhra. This was at a time when, after Indira Gandhi and Johnson had written, had a proposal, and the United States was giving money or something. And they had a lot of Peace Corps volunteers that went with it. We had, just in our state, we maybe had three or 400. I didn't even know all the volunteers in Andhra.

[Assistant] It was an enormous project, India was.

[User] India was enormous project. We had, every state had like two doctors assigned to, Peace Corps, doctors assigned to the Peace Corps there.

[Assistant] Well, we'll get to, let's stay in training and then we'll get overseas. So there was language training. Were you told that you had to get up to a certain proficiency in language or you wouldn't go?

[User] No, we really didn't, because one of the, this, the, at that time, the south wanted English as a national language and the northern India wanted Hindi as the language. And so a lot of people spoke English.

[Assistant] So it was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] India was enormous project. We had, every state had like two doctors assigned to, Peace Corps, doctors assigned to the Peace Corps there.

[Assistant] Well, we'll get to, let's stay in training and then we'll get overseas. So there was language training. Were you told that you had to get up to a certain proficiency in language or you wouldn't go?

[User] No, we really didn't, because one of the, this, the, at that time, the south wanted English as a national language and the northern India wanted Hindi as the language. And so a lot of people spoke English.

[Assistant] So it was.

[User] We learn Telugu, we were stressed Telugu, but I don't think it wasn't as important as maybe some other groups.

[Assistant] Another component of training often is technical studies, whatever work you're expected to do. They try, the Peace Corps tries to prepare you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we really didn't, because one of the, this, the, at that time, the south wanted English as a national language and the northern India wanted Hindi as the language. And so a lot of people spoke English.

[Assistant] So it was.

[User] We learn Telugu, we were stressed Telugu, but I don't think it wasn't as important as maybe some other groups.

[Assistant] Another component of training often is technical studies, whatever work you're expected to do. They try, the Peace Corps tries to prepare you.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] What was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We learn Telugu, we were stressed Telugu, but I don't think it wasn't as important as maybe some other groups.

[Assistant] Another component of training often is technical studies, whatever work you're expected to do. They try, the Peace Corps tries to prepare you.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] What was that?

[User] We had a lot of professors that would tell us about India. You know, we took history courses, geography courses, and also we worked with applied nutrition and. And so what, our job, our part of it was starting nursery schools and so we used a lot of the Head Start, which Head Start was just starting in the United States and we used a lot of the Head Start principles.

[Assistant] Now, this was all while you were up in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] What was that?

[User] We had a lot of professors that would tell us about India. You know, we took history courses, geography courses, and also we worked with applied nutrition and. And so what, our job, our part of it was starting nursery schools and so we used a lot of the Head Start, which Head Start was just starting in the United States and we used a lot of the Head Start principles.

[Assistant] Now, this was all while you were up in?

[User] In training.

[Assistant] In the ski resort area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a lot of professors that would tell us about India. You know, we took history courses, geography courses, and also we worked with applied nutrition and. And so what, our job, our part of it was starting nursery schools and so we used a lot of the Head Start, which Head Start was just starting in the United States and we used a lot of the Head Start principles.

[Assistant] Now, this was all while you were up in?

[User] In training.

[Assistant] In the ski resort area.

[User] In Berkshire, Vermont.

[Assistant] Okay. So did anyone from Peace Corps India or Washington say, well, when you get there, the job you're going to do is this? I mean, or was it left a little vague?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In training.

[Assistant] In the ski resort area.

[User] In Berkshire, Vermont.

[Assistant] Okay. So did anyone from Peace Corps India or Washington say, well, when you get there, the job you're going to do is this? I mean, or was it left a little vague?

[User] No, it was always left a little vague. I think that we would be doing community development and working with that so.

[Assistant] Yeah. So there's language training, area technical, and also area studies. I gather the technical and area studies went together. You learned about India.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was always left a little vague. I think that we would be doing community development and working with that so.

[Assistant] Yeah. So there's language training, area technical, and also area studies. I gather the technical and area studies went together. You learned about India.

[User] We learned about India. We also learned technical. We learned, even though mine was applied nutrition and I had that, oh, I had to learn about chickens, I had to take poultry exams and the other things. And we learned all about unfertilized eggs and everything.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] We had tests. So yes, they were serious. There were people that, I mean, as a matter of fact, I didn't do well on one test. I had to repeat it. And I was scared stiff that I wouldn't make it repeating the test. I mean, I studied and got everything there, and, I mean, I aced that test. Ooh.

[Assistant] Even though you had grown up on a farm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We learned about India. We also learned technical. We learned, even though mine was applied nutrition and I had that, oh, I had to learn about chickens, I had to take poultry exams and the other things. And we learned all about unfertilized eggs and everything.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] We had tests. So yes, they were serious. There were people that, I mean, as a matter of fact, I didn't do well on one test. I had to repeat it. And I was scared stiff that I wouldn't make it repeating the test. I mean, I studied and got everything there, and, I mean, I aced that test. Ooh.

[Assistant] Even though you had grown up on a farm?

[User] Even though I grew up on a farm, I think I thought I didn't have to study it so hard.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Now, the other, the other major part of training is what's called selection. And it has been done in different ways, in different programs. Were you aware of the selection process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had tests. So yes, they were serious. There were people that, I mean, as a matter of fact, I didn't do well on one test. I had to repeat it. And I was scared stiff that I wouldn't make it repeating the test. I mean, I studied and got everything there, and, I mean, I aced that test. Ooh.

[Assistant] Even though you had grown up on a farm?

[User] Even though I grew up on a farm, I think I thought I didn't have to study it so hard.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Now, the other, the other major part of training is what's called selection. And it has been done in different ways, in different programs. Were you aware of the selection process?

[User] Oh, yeah, they did tell us about that. We had.

[Assistant] How did it go, how did it work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We took the, uh, we had to do the Minnesota Multiphasical [Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory] which I had taken in high school and college. So I was used to it, but it scared other people. And my roommate actually did not make the training.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so we, at mid, we had sort of like a midterm. There were some people that were sent home right at midterm.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And some people were just warned. My roommate was warned at midterm, not, she didn't have to leave then.

[Assistant] What was the warning she got?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we, at mid, we had sort of like a midterm. There were some people that were sent home right at midterm.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And some people were just warned. My roommate was warned at midterm, not, she didn't have to leave then.

[Assistant] What was the warning she got?

[User] Well, she just needed to be stronger in, you know, in her subjects and doing all that.

[Assistant] Okay. It wasn't she had to be stronger psychologically, I mean, because?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And some people were just warned. My roommate was warned at midterm, not, she didn't have to leave then.

[Assistant] What was the warning she got?

[User] Well, she just needed to be stronger in, you know, in her subjects and doing all that.

[Assistant] Okay. It wasn't she had to be stronger psychologically, I mean, because?

[User] Well, maybe that too. But just, I mean, I, I don't really know because I was, I felt that I got strong encouragement that, yes, I was going to make it and doing everything. I, I know that she was a little worried. I listened to her there, but I guess it was so competitive that a lot of people just, you just didn't sit around and talk much about it and especially since you were living in, you know, and it was so cold and doing all that, it was more truly a survival. And you were, you were, you know, being kind to people, but you basically were worried about yourself.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did. [tape break] Okay. So you mentioned in selection that actually your roommate was deselected or was warned at mid selection. Did you have, were you interviewed separately by a psychiatrist or psychologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, she just needed to be stronger in, you know, in her subjects and doing all that.

[Assistant] Okay. It wasn't she had to be stronger psychologically, I mean, because?

[User] Well, maybe that too. But just, I mean, I, I don't really know because I was, I felt that I got strong encouragement that, yes, I was going to make it and doing everything. I, I know that she was a little worried. I listened to her there, but I guess it was so competitive that a lot of people just, you just didn't sit around and talk much about it and especially since you were living in, you know, and it was so cold and doing all that, it was more truly a survival. And you were, you were, you know, being kind to people, but you basically were worried about yourself.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did. [tape break] Okay. So you mentioned in selection that actually your roommate was deselected or was warned at mid selection. Did you have, were you interviewed separately by a psychiatrist or psychologist?

[User] Oh, yes. We all had separate interviews. We all were tested. We had separate interviews with psychiatrists, we had separate interviews with other staff.

[Assistant] And did it shake you? I mean, I mean, most of us aren't accustomed to going, having psychiatric interviews and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. We all had separate interviews. We all were tested. We had separate interviews with psychiatrists, we had separate interviews with other staff.

[Assistant] And did it shake you? I mean, I mean, most of us aren't accustomed to going, having psychiatric interviews and?

[User] Well, not really. I just, I don't know. I guess I didn't know. I guess I didn't know enough not to know, not to be afraid or anything, but it didn't bother me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Other people talked about it and I guess I never, I really didn't know what a psychiatric interview was, except I, the only thing experience I had with is we had foster children in our home. And, you know, we had a boy that used to go to his, he would always see the psychologist to play games he would talk about.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So was there anything else about training? How long did it last?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not really. I just, I don't know. I guess I didn't know. I guess I didn't know enough not to know, not to be afraid or anything, but it didn't bother me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Other people talked about it and I guess I never, I really didn't know what a psychiatric interview was, except I, the only thing experience I had with is we had foster children in our home. And, you know, we had a boy that used to go to his, he would always see the psychologist to play games he would talk about.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So was there anything else about training? How long did it last?

[User] It lasted three months. And one weekend we did get to go, I went with a group of other people. We went to Cape Cod.

[Assistant] Just a break from training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other people talked about it and I guess I never, I really didn't know what a psychiatric interview was, except I, the only thing experience I had with is we had foster children in our home. And, you know, we had a boy that used to go to his, he would always see the psychologist to play games he would talk about.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So was there anything else about training? How long did it last?

[User] It lasted three months. And one weekend we did get to go, I went with a group of other people. We went to Cape Cod.

[Assistant] Just a break from training?

[User] Just a break from training. A weekend, a couple of days.

[Assistant] And were you working with a child for the whole training part or just a week or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just a break from training. A weekend, a couple of days.

[Assistant] And were you working with a child for the whole training part or just a week or so?

[User] It was just towards the end. They gave us different children. They assigned to us. And one of the things is we took the children on a field trip and I was driving. Another lady was with me, an older lady. And this is in Vermont, up and down the hills. And I was coming down the hill. These were old cars. And I said, the brakes aren't working. Very quietly. And she said, well, use the handbrakes. And I said, I tried.

[Assistant] And?

[User] And we, I mean, I never used the, I never put my foot on the gas after that, just trying to see what we could do. And when we got down, since, you know, since we hadn't given it any gas, it was lower, but we just went around in circles and just stopped. And then she got out and called the camp. And the people at the camp thought we were wonderful, but the children thought we were terrible. And after that, the person that I was supposed to be taking care of didn't even want to talk to me.

[Assistant] Huh. But that didn't affect the training as such?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just towards the end. They gave us different children. They assigned to us. And one of the things is we took the children on a field trip and I was driving. Another lady was with me, an older lady. And this is in Vermont, up and down the hills. And I was coming down the hill. These were old cars. And I said, the brakes aren't working. Very quietly. And she said, well, use the handbrakes. And I said, I tried.

[Assistant] And?

[User] And we, I mean, I never used the, I never put my foot on the gas after that, just trying to see what we could do. And when we got down, since, you know, since we hadn't given it any gas, it was lower, but we just went around in circles and just stopped. And then she got out and called the camp. And the people at the camp thought we were wonderful, but the children thought we were terrible. And after that, the person that I was supposed to be taking care of didn't even want to talk to me.

[Assistant] Huh. But that didn't affect the training as such?

[User] No, not really. They, they asked me then if I wanted to be assigned to someone else. I said no.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then were there any other components of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we, I mean, I never used the, I never put my foot on the gas after that, just trying to see what we could do. And when we got down, since, you know, since we hadn't given it any gas, it was lower, but we just went around in circles and just stopped. And then she got out and called the camp. And the people at the camp thought we were wonderful, but the children thought we were terrible. And after that, the person that I was supposed to be taking care of didn't even want to talk to me.

[Assistant] Huh. But that didn't affect the training as such?

[User] No, not really. They, they asked me then if I wanted to be assigned to someone else. I said no.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then were there any other components of training?

[User] Well, we had a physical, this was a very much physical fitness. I mean, we had someone from the New York Times that came out and wrote it was the Fort Dix of the Peace Corps. And we had, we all had to do a ten minute mile or we couldn't make it. And I was, you know, study doing hard, staying up all night, running, chasing the kids. It was hard. But one morning, I got up, I did the ten minute mile. I made it and never got up again for any physical education. But we had to do a ten minute mile. Yeah, we had lots of.

[Assistant] Did anyone try to justify why they were doing it, the physical training part of it? You weren't going to be going to India to climb mountains.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we weren't. And that's what some of the people were complaining about and talking. And we, I guess even more so when we got in the country, is that India is hot and it's hot, hotter, and hottest. And we were going in the south where it's hottest.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a cold summer. Temperatures weren't the same. We were not going to be walking up and down mountains.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Doing all that. But they guess, they just, I mean, it was like the challenge. I mean, you it was we accepted whatever it was, you know, this process.

[Assistant] Because you knew it was part of the selection process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a cold summer. Temperatures weren't the same. We were not going to be walking up and down mountains.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Doing all that. But they guess, they just, I mean, it was like the challenge. I mean, you it was we accepted whatever it was, you know, this process.

[Assistant] Because you knew it was part of the selection process.

[User] It was part of the selection process. And I mean, when if you went there, you really wanted to go to India. And I think that was what, just deciding to see if you really wanted to go. That was what they tested.

[Assistant] Did you also have health training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was part of the selection process. And I mean, when if you went there, you really wanted to go to India. And I think that was what, just deciding to see if you really wanted to go. That was what they tested.

[Assistant] Did you also have health training?

[User] What?

[Assistant] Health?

[User] Well, we had, we had people that especially that were in nurses training. We all had to have a couple of health courses, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there volunteers who had served in India who took part in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What?

[Assistant] Health?

[User] Well, we had, we had people that especially that were in nurses training. We all had to have a couple of health courses, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there volunteers who had served in India who took part in the training?

[User] Oh, yes. Most of the, most of our instructors had all been to India.

[Assistant] So they, you could talk to them about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had, we had people that especially that were in nurses training. We all had to have a couple of health courses, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there volunteers who had served in India who took part in the training?

[User] Oh, yes. Most of the, most of our instructors had all been to India.

[Assistant] So they, you could talk to them about.

[User] We could talk to them. There also was one volunteer who had been raised in India with missionaries and she spoke Hindi, although we were learning Telugu, and she had a hard time during training because they thought that she was just trying to get back to India. So even though she was good, but I mean, we would of course ask, she would tell us all kinds of stories about India. We liked that. It was easier to talk to her than, you know, some of the staff.

[Assistant] Because they weren't, you weren't worried about selection with her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Most of the, most of our instructors had all been to India.

[Assistant] So they, you could talk to them about.

[User] We could talk to them. There also was one volunteer who had been raised in India with missionaries and she spoke Hindi, although we were learning Telugu, and she had a hard time during training because they thought that she was just trying to get back to India. So even though she was good, but I mean, we would of course ask, she would tell us all kinds of stories about India. We liked that. It was easier to talk to her than, you know, some of the staff.

[Assistant] Because they weren't, you weren't worried about selection with her.

[User] Right. And with the other thing is that what we had to do to prepare us for India, I guess. But one day we had to cut up the chicken and then that evening was the first night that we had to eat without our without silverware, with our hands, because you didn't eat with the hands in India. And there were a lot of people that were hungry that night.

[Assistant] Did, uh, did the group, if people with disappearing from training all the time, did the group protest at all? Did the group come together and say, what's going on here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And with the other thing is that what we had to do to prepare us for India, I guess. But one day we had to cut up the chicken and then that evening was the first night that we had to eat without our without silverware, with our hands, because you didn't eat with the hands in India. And there were a lot of people that were hungry that night.

[Assistant] Did, uh, did the group, if people with disappearing from training all the time, did the group protest at all? Did the group come together and say, what's going on here?

[User] Oh, no, no. No. Because we knew at the very beginning that everybody would not make it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was just the people were deselected, but there was only, it was just at the midterm and then at the final. But what was really almost unfair that people that would, we knew they had the deselection process. But in the end, and we even voted on the people.

[Assistant] Oh, you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no. No. Because we knew at the very beginning that everybody would not make it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was just the people were deselected, but there was only, it was just at the midterm and then at the final. But what was really almost unfair that people that would, we knew they had the deselection process. But in the end, and we even voted on the people.

[Assistant] Oh, you did?

[User] And we had to vote which team we, what people we'd want on our team to see who was liked by the other people, do a lot of other things. But the one thing that we didn't find out until the very final day is it didn't, they didn't exactly have a set number before. They still had to, talking to India, talking to some other place, and finding out that maybe this person could make it, maybe this person couldn't, or that they could take that, because I mean, it found out later India had a lot of volunteers and I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. And the group didn't object to doing the rating? Well, my vote might get someone kicked out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had to vote which team we, what people we'd want on our team to see who was liked by the other people, do a lot of other things. But the one thing that we didn't find out until the very final day is it didn't, they didn't exactly have a set number before. They still had to, talking to India, talking to some other place, and finding out that maybe this person could make it, maybe this person couldn't, or that they could take that, because I mean, it found out later India had a lot of volunteers and I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. And the group didn't object to doing the rating? Well, my vote might get someone kicked out.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because in a way, it was just the way it was. We thought that that was what we were taught.

[Assistant] Well, since it was the time it was, where was there any discussion about Vietnam?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because in a way, it was just the way it was. We thought that that was what we were taught.

[Assistant] Well, since it was the time it was, where was there any discussion about Vietnam?

[User] This was in '66. So it was a little early.

[Assistant] It was before the big buildup.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because in a way, it was just the way it was. We thought that that was what we were taught.

[Assistant] Well, since it was the time it was, where was there any discussion about Vietnam?

[User] This was in '66. So it was a little early.

[Assistant] It was before the big buildup.

[User] We were reading about Vietnam. We talked some about Vietnam. But really, I mean, I guess I don't remember much of the other discussion because it was, we were working and studying, you know, 12, 13 hours, and then trying to get our sleep. I don't remember, but I'm sure there might have been people that were talking about it because there were some guys in other groups I know, and probably in this group, who were in the Peace Corps instead of being drafted.

[Assistant] And because you were going to India, which was known to be a third world leader, sort of a neutral, were the discussions of politics and how to talk when you met Indians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was in '66. So it was a little early.

[Assistant] It was before the big buildup.

[User] We were reading about Vietnam. We talked some about Vietnam. But really, I mean, I guess I don't remember much of the other discussion because it was, we were working and studying, you know, 12, 13 hours, and then trying to get our sleep. I don't remember, but I'm sure there might have been people that were talking about it because there were some guys in other groups I know, and probably in this group, who were in the Peace Corps instead of being drafted.

[Assistant] And because you were going to India, which was known to be a third world leader, sort of a neutral, were the discussions of politics and how to talk when you met Indians?

[User] Well, yes, there was, there was a politics, especially politics, where we learned a lot about the history of India in our training. Are we still talking about training?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were reading about Vietnam. We talked some about Vietnam. But really, I mean, I guess I don't remember much of the other discussion because it was, we were working and studying, you know, 12, 13 hours, and then trying to get our sleep. I don't remember, but I'm sure there might have been people that were talking about it because there were some guys in other groups I know, and probably in this group, who were in the Peace Corps instead of being drafted.

[Assistant] And because you were going to India, which was known to be a third world leader, sort of a neutral, were the discussions of politics and how to talk when you met Indians?

[User] Well, yes, there was, there was a politics, especially politics, where we learned a lot about the history of India in our training. Are we still talking about training?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[User] And with the, with the Indians in training. Well, I think. I don't know, maybe just from my perspective, I was thinking more from the history than anything. I know afterwards, I was surprised to find that some of the volunteers were put in villages that were very socialist or, you know, everything. But we were, we were taught, of course, that the British had left India, and that was not, you know, and that India was going through its independence.

[Assistant] You don't recall anyone saying, well, you're going to be, because you're American, you'll be attacked about Vietnam? And it was still early, so probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, there was, there was a politics, especially politics, where we learned a lot about the history of India in our training. Are we still talking about training?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[User] And with the, with the Indians in training. Well, I think. I don't know, maybe just from my perspective, I was thinking more from the history than anything. I know afterwards, I was surprised to find that some of the volunteers were put in villages that were very socialist or, you know, everything. But we were, we were taught, of course, that the British had left India, and that was not, you know, and that India was going through its independence.

[Assistant] You don't recall anyone saying, well, you're going to be, because you're American, you'll be attacked about Vietnam? And it was still early, so probably.

[User] No, the other, what, no. We were Americans and what we were taught in training and we certainly did, is that the women were, we were dresses. We did not wear jeans. We weren't wearing slacks. You were doing that. And you were also supposed to be well dressed. You were not mistaken for all the people, the hippies that were in India that were, that were avoiding the draft or.

[Assistant] Looking for ashrams or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And with the, with the Indians in training. Well, I think. I don't know, maybe just from my perspective, I was thinking more from the history than anything. I know afterwards, I was surprised to find that some of the volunteers were put in villages that were very socialist or, you know, everything. But we were, we were taught, of course, that the British had left India, and that was not, you know, and that India was going through its independence.

[Assistant] You don't recall anyone saying, well, you're going to be, because you're American, you'll be attacked about Vietnam? And it was still early, so probably.

[User] No, the other, what, no. We were Americans and what we were taught in training and we certainly did, is that the women were, we were dresses. We did not wear jeans. We weren't wearing slacks. You were doing that. And you were also supposed to be well dressed. You were not mistaken for all the people, the hippies that were in India that were, that were avoiding the draft or.

[Assistant] Looking for ashrams or.

[User] Right. So I remember more about talking about the hippies than about Vietnam. I became interested when I was in India about Vietnam but not before.

[Assistant] Okay, so final selection and you're chosen. What happens at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the other, what, no. We were Americans and what we were taught in training and we certainly did, is that the women were, we were dresses. We did not wear jeans. We weren't wearing slacks. You were doing that. And you were also supposed to be well dressed. You were not mistaken for all the people, the hippies that were in India that were, that were avoiding the draft or.

[Assistant] Looking for ashrams or.

[User] Right. So I remember more about talking about the hippies than about Vietnam. I became interested when I was in India about Vietnam but not before.

[Assistant] Okay, so final selection and you're chosen. What happens at that point?

[User] At that point, we were told. We were told about the team that we had and they combined our team with the other split training group that went, that was trained in Williams, Williams College. And I ended up, most of my, all of the people that I worked with had been trained in Williams College. So they weren't the people that I was trained with at Dartmouth. But then we went home. We were, we went home for a while, like about a week. And then we were supposed to all meet in New York.

[Assistant] While you were home, was there a grand celebration going or is just quiet? And did you have any second thoughts?