[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the potential for him being the first student to ever pass the O-exam. But Morosi Moshoeshoe was his name. Moshoeshoe is a, is actually a, uh, and it's M-O.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] M-O-shoe-shoe. But that was, that's very royal. The kings of Lesotho are Moshoeshoes. So Morosi Moshoeshoe had some relative. But he was from way up in the mountains. He came in to me and he said, Ntate John, can you talk to me? Can you tell me what?

[Assistant] Oh, so that Ntate was applied to you too?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] You were Ntate John.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] You were Ntate John.

[User] Ntate John. Can you tell talk to me about the Falkland Islands and I went, what? Yeah, what, what was, what's happening with the Falkland Islands? You know, why are the British there? And so I just, I. Morosi was just in an, I mean, a brilliant student. And I talked to the priest of the mission and said, you know, Ntate, he really shouldn't be here. He needs to be someplace where he can really take advantage of the education.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] We don't, I don't have a beaker for science. How am I going to really teach him science? And the priest of the mission said, no, he's going to stay here.

[Assistant] Well, they were getting his tuition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ntate John. Can you tell talk to me about the Falkland Islands and I went, what? Yeah, what, what was, what's happening with the Falkland Islands? You know, why are the British there? And so I just, I. Morosi was just in an, I mean, a brilliant student. And I talked to the priest of the mission and said, you know, Ntate, he really shouldn't be here. He needs to be someplace where he can really take advantage of the education.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] We don't, I don't have a beaker for science. How am I going to really teach him science? And the priest of the mission said, no, he's going to stay here.

[Assistant] Well, they were getting his tuition.

[User] Right. Well, and he. Part of it I understood, he could have been the potential to be the first person to pass, but that was sacrificing him. So I went down. I got to know during training the brothers at, at Christ the King, which was the school in Roma, where we did our training.

[Assistant] Which is 4 hours away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We don't, I don't have a beaker for science. How am I going to really teach him science? And the priest of the mission said, no, he's going to stay here.

[Assistant] Well, they were getting his tuition.

[User] Right. Well, and he. Part of it I understood, he could have been the potential to be the first person to pass, but that was sacrificing him. So I went down. I got to know during training the brothers at, at Christ the King, which was the school in Roma, where we did our training.

[Assistant] Which is 4 hours away.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it'd be a boarding school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it'd be a boarding school.

[User] It's a boarding school. I went down. Our school is a boarding school.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yeah. We had.

[Assistant] So people came in from the outlying villages, which were even more remote.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a boarding school. I went down. Our school is a boarding school.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yeah. We had.

[Assistant] So people came in from the outlying villages, which were even more remote.

[User] Oh, exactly. So I ended up talking to the brother down at Christ the King, and he had a, saw his exams and then said, oh yeah, we'll get him in here. So I got Morosi out of there, down to Christ the King. Long story short, he ended up graduating from the National University, has been very successful. Just incredible.

[Assistant] What's he doing now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We had.

[Assistant] So people came in from the outlying villages, which were even more remote.

[User] Oh, exactly. So I ended up talking to the brother down at Christ the King, and he had a, saw his exams and then said, oh yeah, we'll get him in here. So I got Morosi out of there, down to Christ the King. Long story short, he ended up graduating from the National University, has been very successful. Just incredible.

[Assistant] What's he doing now?

[User] He is, he's got two businesses, three businesses that he's doing.

[Assistant] Still in Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, he's still in Lesotho.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I just heard from him.

[Assistant] Ah, no kidding. Are you in touch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he's still in Lesotho.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I just heard from him.

[Assistant] Ah, no kidding. Are you in touch?

[User] Just recently. And but the priest of the mission never really talked to me again, you know? But, you know, I said, you know, if that's, if I look back, I still say that's the best thing I ever did as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] You saved a life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think it's what we do in terms of changing ourselves does make a big difference. I even look at myself in terms of the career that I ended up taking, you know, training young kids at university and doing some development work in terms of projects on the ground. What I do with my kids, talking to them about voting, talking them about participating in your community, what community's about, you know. Boy, what an impact. And that really, I really attribute that to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Let's go back to you being a Peace Corps volunteer. Yes, let's take a break. We're back from a short break. Um, after your first year of teaching, which was seems to me incredibly difficult. Did you have a break? Was there, you started at the beginning of a school year, right?

[User] Right. Yeah. You know, as a Peace Corps volunteer, you accumulate leave time. They do really encourage you to do a secondary project, especially as a teacher, which I did.

[Assistant] You mentioned the library.

[User] The library and trying to get science equipment and just kind of working in the community and doing some things.

[Assistant] How did you, how did you do that? Did you have to do some fundraising back home or how did you get the money to get books, to get the science equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. All of that. I wrote to people not only in the U.S. but in Europe, anyplace I could find, you know, where were there pots of money that you might be able to get? And I got some support. I can't even remember what the foundation was. Peace Corps would give us, here's some potential opportunities for funding. And I can't remember. I just remember writing and getting some money. And then I got the Catholic Church to get some money for the library at the school.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] So it turned out to be wonderful. It turned out to be really incredible. Um. Never enough books, never enough things for them, but more equipment. But it was better than what we had. The sad part of that, I'll just jump ahead a little bit, is I did end up going back to Lesotho ten years after I, no, 20 years after I left.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] In the early nineties. And the school is in much worse shape than it was when I was there.

[Assistant] Oh, that makes you feel bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the early nineties. And the school is in much worse shape than it was when I was there.

[Assistant] Oh, that makes you feel bad.

[User] Yeah, it was just. But at the time it was just, yeah, it was just amazing. It was. But it was just like one schoolhouse and no windows or no glass in the windows. And when it rained, you had to stop because it was just a tin roof.

[Assistant] The noise.

[User] The noise was so intense. And lightning, you know, you're in the mountains and people would get killed often by being struck by lightning because there was no, Lesotho doesn't have any trees or almost no trees. So it's these bare mountains. And so if you're out walking, it was pretty intense. And so, and students knew that. So when it was lightning, people would dive under desks. And it was pretty, pretty kind of a scary time. And lightning struck close to the houses that we were in on several occasions. So it was, it was, it was just such a great environment. So, so very amazing.

[Assistant] Did you take a break ever?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was just. But at the time it was just, yeah, it was just amazing. It was. But it was just like one schoolhouse and no windows or no glass in the windows. And when it rained, you had to stop because it was just a tin roof.

[Assistant] The noise.

[User] The noise was so intense. And lightning, you know, you're in the mountains and people would get killed often by being struck by lightning because there was no, Lesotho doesn't have any trees or almost no trees. So it's these bare mountains. And so if you're out walking, it was pretty intense. And so, and students knew that. So when it was lightning, people would dive under desks. And it was pretty, pretty kind of a scary time. And lightning struck close to the houses that we were in on several occasions. So it was, it was, it was just such a great environment. So, so very amazing.

[Assistant] Did you take a break ever?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you get some vacation? You said it accumulated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The noise was so intense. And lightning, you know, you're in the mountains and people would get killed often by being struck by lightning because there was no, Lesotho doesn't have any trees or almost no trees. So it's these bare mountains. And so if you're out walking, it was pretty intense. And so, and students knew that. So when it was lightning, people would dive under desks. And it was pretty, pretty kind of a scary time. And lightning struck close to the houses that we were in on several occasions. So it was, it was, it was just such a great environment. So, so very amazing.

[Assistant] Did you take a break ever?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you get some vacation? You said it accumulated.

[User] We did. We went, I actually had one of the most incredible vacations I've ever had in my life where we hitchhiked to what they called the Wild Coast. You know, at the time, politically, South Africa was making these, these homelands and saying that they're independent countries. And the only, I think the only country that recognized them in independent countries was Israel.

[Assistant] Oh. And we're not talking about Swaziland and Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you get some vacation? You said it accumulated.

[User] We did. We went, I actually had one of the most incredible vacations I've ever had in my life where we hitchhiked to what they called the Wild Coast. You know, at the time, politically, South Africa was making these, these homelands and saying that they're independent countries. And the only, I think the only country that recognized them in independent countries was Israel.

[Assistant] Oh. And we're not talking about Swaziland and Lesotho?

[User] No, no, no. We're talking about the Transkei and the Ciskei, all of these that were in South Africa that they made into supposedly independent countries. So there was one called the Transkei, which is along the eastern border of South Africa, absolutely beautiful. So we hitchhiked to the, Durban is the big city kind of in the north. We hitchhiked to Durban and then went down the, went to a place where the road was. And by the way, there was a Holiday Inn with a casino. So if you're in South Africa, it was illegal for gambling. Prostitution was illegal. But they put prostitution and gambling in Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana.

[Assistant] Oh, and so the South Africans would come in


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We went, I actually had one of the most incredible vacations I've ever had in my life where we hitchhiked to what they called the Wild Coast. You know, at the time, politically, South Africa was making these, these homelands and saying that they're independent countries. And the only, I think the only country that recognized them in independent countries was Israel.

[Assistant] Oh. And we're not talking about Swaziland and Lesotho?

[User] No, no, no. We're talking about the Transkei and the Ciskei, all of these that were in South Africa that they made into supposedly independent countries. So there was one called the Transkei, which is along the eastern border of South Africa, absolutely beautiful. So we hitchhiked to the, Durban is the big city kind of in the north. We hitchhiked to Durban and then went down the, went to a place where the road was. And by the way, there was a Holiday Inn with a casino. So if you're in South Africa, it was illegal for gambling. Prostitution was illegal. But they put prostitution and gambling in Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana.

[Assistant] Oh, and so the South Africans would come in

[User] In these homelands. Right. So Sun City is one that people have often heard of up by Johannesburg, which was this big playground for South Africans that was in, I forget which homeland it was in. And these homelands were like islands. They weren't necessarily contiguous, they were broken up in some cases. So we went to this Holiday Inn, and from there on there were no more roads down the coast. So we walked down the coast for ten days to a place called Port Saint John's.

[Assistant] Wow, you walked for ten days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. We're talking about the Transkei and the Ciskei, all of these that were in South Africa that they made into supposedly independent countries. So there was one called the Transkei, which is along the eastern border of South Africa, absolutely beautiful. So we hitchhiked to the, Durban is the big city kind of in the north. We hitchhiked to Durban and then went down the, went to a place where the road was. And by the way, there was a Holiday Inn with a casino. So if you're in South Africa, it was illegal for gambling. Prostitution was illegal. But they put prostitution and gambling in Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana.

[Assistant] Oh, and so the South Africans would come in

[User] In these homelands. Right. So Sun City is one that people have often heard of up by Johannesburg, which was this big playground for South Africans that was in, I forget which homeland it was in. And these homelands were like islands. They weren't necessarily contiguous, they were broken up in some cases. So we went to this Holiday Inn, and from there on there were no more roads down the coast. So we walked down the coast for ten days to a place called Port Saint John's.

[Assistant] Wow, you walked for ten days?

[User] And it was just incredible because you'd have these white sandy beaches and the way that the, um, Ndebele they're called, where they live. And that's where Nelson Mandela was from. They didn't live right on the coast. They lived inland. So the coast itself was pretty deserted. And there was actually a, um, game preserve right on the coast that we had to swim across the river to get to. And then there was people with guns on one side saying, what are you doing here?

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In these homelands. Right. So Sun City is one that people have often heard of up by Johannesburg, which was this big playground for South Africans that was in, I forget which homeland it was in. And these homelands were like islands. They weren't necessarily contiguous, they were broken up in some cases. So we went to this Holiday Inn, and from there on there were no more roads down the coast. So we walked down the coast for ten days to a place called Port Saint John's.

[Assistant] Wow, you walked for ten days?

[User] And it was just incredible because you'd have these white sandy beaches and the way that the, um, Ndebele they're called, where they live. And that's where Nelson Mandela was from. They didn't live right on the coast. They lived inland. So the coast itself was pretty deserted. And there was actually a, um, game preserve right on the coast that we had to swim across the river to get to. And then there was people with guns on one side saying, what are you doing here?

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] And we told them, that they took us across the game reserve. So we saw, it was the first time I saw giraffe and some other big game. And then we walked down the coast to this place called Port St. John's. And so it was, and we were out, there was three of us that did it. And it was just magical because you have no electricity, you're right on the coast. We'd go out and wade in and get mussels off the rocks and have steamed mussels and we got bread. There were some villages we could walk inland a little bit and buy bread and peanut butter.

[Assistant] We you're saying, who's with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we told them, that they took us across the game reserve. So we saw, it was the first time I saw giraffe and some other big game. And then we walked down the coast to this place called Port St. John's. And so it was, and we were out, there was three of us that did it. And it was just magical because you have no electricity, you're right on the coast. We'd go out and wade in and get mussels off the rocks and have steamed mussels and we got bread. There were some villages we could walk inland a little bit and buy bread and peanut butter.

[Assistant] We you're saying, who's with you?

[User] Guy by the name of Dave Roush. Dave is now a math professor at the University of Denver and, and Deb McDuffie. And Deb is, uh, she works in. I've lost touch with Deb. She's in upstate New York and had just lost touch with. So three of us in our group along the coast.

[Assistant] Terrific.

[User] And it was just, yeah, it was just absolutely amazing.

[Assistant] Was this sort of at the halfway point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guy by the name of Dave Roush. Dave is now a math professor at the University of Denver and, and Deb McDuffie. And Deb is, uh, she works in. I've lost touch with Deb. She's in upstate New York and had just lost touch with. So three of us in our group along the coast.

[Assistant] Terrific.

[User] And it was just, yeah, it was just absolutely amazing.

[Assistant] Was this sort of at the halfway point?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] When your school would have, the students would have had a break of a couple of weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was just, yeah, it was just absolutely amazing.

[Assistant] Was this sort of at the halfway point?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] When your school would have, the students would have had a break of a couple of weeks?

[User] Correct. Yeah. And one of the, another time I want during the school we did it, is that we actually took the kids to Durbin.

[Assistant] Took your students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] When your school would have, the students would have had a break of a couple of weeks?

[User] Correct. Yeah. And one of the, another time I want during the school we did it, is that we actually took the kids to Durbin.

[Assistant] Took your students?

[User] Took group students to Durbin. Got money from the mission and from the, to take them there.

[Assistant] Now was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Took group students to Durbin. Got money from the mission and from the, to take them there.

[Assistant] Now was that?

[User] They'd never been out of the mountains. Some of these kids had never been in the lowlands of Lesotho.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] First time some of them have ever seen more than a two story building. When they went through at the border, I had to get out because it was illegal for me to ride with the students because they were Black.

[Assistant] Once you're in South Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First time some of them have ever seen more than a two story building. When they went through at the border, I had to get out because it was illegal for me to ride with the students because they were Black.

[Assistant] Once you're in South Africa.

[User] Once you're in South Africa. So they got out in the bus and I hitchhiked to, there was a lot of hitchhiking at that time. I hitchhiked to Durban.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then at the beaches in Durban, it was.

[Assistant] Then you met up with the students.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once you're in South Africa. So they got out in the bus and I hitchhiked to, there was a lot of hitchhiking at that time. I hitchhiked to Durban.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then at the beaches in Durban, it was.

[Assistant] Then you met up with the students.

[User] Right. I couldn't stay with them. It was illegal. And I wasn't actually supposed to be on the beach with them. They had Black white beaches.

[Assistant] Were you the only, um, staff person from the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then at the beaches in Durban, it was.

[Assistant] Then you met up with the students.

[User] Right. I couldn't stay with them. It was illegal. And I wasn't actually supposed to be on the beach with them. They had Black white beaches.

[Assistant] Were you the only, um, staff person from the school?

[User] No. There was a couple other teachers that went.

[Assistant] Okay, that helped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I couldn't stay with them. It was illegal. And I wasn't actually supposed to be on the beach with them. They had Black white beaches.

[Assistant] Were you the only, um, staff person from the school?

[User] No. There was a couple other teachers that went.

[Assistant] Okay, that helped.

[User] That went with them, that they could stay because they were Basotho. They were Black.

[Assistant] Right. They were Black so they could be on the bus with the kids. Okay, that's good, I was worried about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. There was a couple other teachers that went.

[Assistant] Okay, that helped.

[User] That went with them, that they could stay because they were Basotho. They were Black.

[Assistant] Right. They were Black so they could be on the bus with the kids. Okay, that's good, I was worried about.

[User] But that was an incredible experience. Just another eye opener about what that was like. Just, just incredible. And you got, actually on the way back from Port St. John's to Lesotho to come back, I don't know why Dave wasn't with us at this point, but Deb and I split off to come back and we were hitchhiking and got into a, inevitably what happened when you got picked up by a South African, especially a farmer. She'd get around to conversation and eventually they'd say, well, what do you think about our Blacks?

[Assistant] So of course, when you say a South African farmer, this is a white guy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That went with them, that they could stay because they were Basotho. They were Black.

[Assistant] Right. They were Black so they could be on the bus with the kids. Okay, that's good, I was worried about.

[User] But that was an incredible experience. Just another eye opener about what that was like. Just, just incredible. And you got, actually on the way back from Port St. John's to Lesotho to come back, I don't know why Dave wasn't with us at this point, but Deb and I split off to come back and we were hitchhiking and got into a, inevitably what happened when you got picked up by a South African, especially a farmer. She'd get around to conversation and eventually they'd say, well, what do you think about our Blacks?

[Assistant] So of course, when you say a South African farmer, this is a white guy.

[User] Yeah, this is a white guy, an Afrikaner.

[Assistant] So he'd get around to asking you, what do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was an incredible experience. Just another eye opener about what that was like. Just, just incredible. And you got, actually on the way back from Port St. John's to Lesotho to come back, I don't know why Dave wasn't with us at this point, but Deb and I split off to come back and we were hitchhiking and got into a, inevitably what happened when you got picked up by a South African, especially a farmer. She'd get around to conversation and eventually they'd say, well, what do you think about our Blacks?

[Assistant] So of course, when you say a South African farmer, this is a white guy.

[User] Yeah, this is a white guy, an Afrikaner.

[Assistant] So he'd get around to asking you, what do you think?

[User] What do you think about our Black guys? And they would say that, what do you think about our Blacks? They're not like your Blacks. They were. And you know, most.

[Assistant] How do they know, what's their conception of an American black person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What do you think about our Black guys? And they would say that, what do you think about our Blacks? They're not like your Blacks. They were. And you know, most.

[Assistant] How do they know, what's their conception of an American black person?

[User] Well, much more smarter, uh, much more, um, kind of knowing their own skills and things, where their Blacks were lazy and, and, you know, couldn't trust them. They'd steal, all of this stuff. So most of the time you did, you'd say, do I say something? I'm out in the middle of nowhere. Do I say something? You say, well, you know, we all have our own, you know, we all have our own way of looking at things. And, and, you know, what you do in your own country is different than what we do in our country. So you do something political. You kind of lost a little bit of your soul, I think, every time you did that. But you did wear your, well, this time I didn't. This is an old farmer and I was just fed up with it. And I just said, I think it's absolutely atrocious about how Blacks are treated. And the people I know are incredibly bright.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we're out in the middle of what's called the Karoo. We're in the middle of, you're, in parts of South Africa, you're out in the middle of nowhere. There's nothing around. Probably the closest town was, it was, it was Bloemfontein, it was 50 miles away. He let us off, goes well I think it's time for the two of you to get out.

[Assistant] And there you are, fifty, five-oh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, much more smarter, uh, much more, um, kind of knowing their own skills and things, where their Blacks were lazy and, and, you know, couldn't trust them. They'd steal, all of this stuff. So most of the time you did, you'd say, do I say something? I'm out in the middle of nowhere. Do I say something? You say, well, you know, we all have our own, you know, we all have our own way of looking at things. And, and, you know, what you do in your own country is different than what we do in our country. So you do something political. You kind of lost a little bit of your soul, I think, every time you did that. But you did wear your, well, this time I didn't. This is an old farmer and I was just fed up with it. And I just said, I think it's absolutely atrocious about how Blacks are treated. And the people I know are incredibly bright.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we're out in the middle of what's called the Karoo. We're in the middle of, you're, in parts of South Africa, you're out in the middle of nowhere. There's nothing around. Probably the closest town was, it was, it was Bloemfontein, it was 50 miles away. He let us off, goes well I think it's time for the two of you to get out.

[Assistant] And there you are, fifty, five-oh?

[User] Five-oh.

[Assistant] 50 miles away from the nearest city.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five-oh.

[Assistant] 50 miles away from the nearest city.

[User] Right. And we're out in the middle of nowhere. And of course Deb's going to me, what did you do? Well, we were out, and it was, I remember it was dark and there was a big truck. You know, most people would pass you by. You're out in the middle of it. And because a lot of the drivers were Black and they'd never pick up a white.

[Assistant] They wouldn't?

[User] No, because you'd get, they'd get in trouble.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And we're out in the middle of nowhere. And of course Deb's going to me, what did you do? Well, we were out, and it was, I remember it was dark and there was a big truck. You know, most people would pass you by. You're out in the middle of it. And because a lot of the drivers were Black and they'd never pick up a white.

[Assistant] They wouldn't?

[User] No, because you'd get, they'd get in trouble.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] They could get in trouble. But a truck came and we were hitchhiking and a truck stopped. And when he saw us, afterwards he goes, if I would have known you were white, I never would have picked you up. But he ended up.

[Assistant] But he was a Black Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because you'd get, they'd get in trouble.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] They could get in trouble. But a truck came and we were hitchhiking and a truck stopped. And when he saw us, afterwards he goes, if I would have known you were white, I never would have picked you up. But he ended up.

[Assistant] But he was a Black Lesotho?

[User] He was. He was, no, he was actually colored. See.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, okay, there's this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Indian maybe. But then you had Indians.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] And Indians, but some of these, like to go across the Orange Free State, an Indian had to get a special permit. And then you had whites, but then you had two classes of whites, you had the English whites and you had the Afrikaans. And so it was such. And there was a big, you know, in World War II, the British put Afrikaans in concentration camps. Many Afrikaans died if you look at the history of World War II, because they supported Hitler.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Because they thought if they defeat the British, we can get rid of the British.

[Assistant] Out of South Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The apartheid was just, it was an amazing, amazingly effective system for what they wanted to have done. Completely dehumanizing.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And it always, you know, when people say that, even like whites that have been overseas and especially where I was, and they say they know what it's like to be in a minority. You don't. You're in a minority in a very privileged sense.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] You have no idea what it's like when it would be flipped. I have no idea. In almost any place I've been in the world, that's the case. Yes, I might be the only white person, but I'm also seen at a, you know, a higher level.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, exactly. When somebody in the African bush reaches out to touch your hair, it's not the same as a white person assuming that privilege with a Black person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it always, you know, when people say that, even like whites that have been overseas and especially where I was, and they say they know what it's like to be in a minority. You don't. You're in a minority in a very privileged sense.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] You have no idea what it's like when it would be flipped. I have no idea. In almost any place I've been in the world, that's the case. Yes, I might be the only white person, but I'm also seen at a, you know, a higher level.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, exactly. When somebody in the African bush reaches out to touch your hair, it's not the same as a white person assuming that privilege with a Black person.

[User] Right, not at all.

[Assistant] It's a very different thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have no idea what it's like when it would be flipped. I have no idea. In almost any place I've been in the world, that's the case. Yes, I might be the only white person, but I'm also seen at a, you know, a higher level.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, exactly. When somebody in the African bush reaches out to touch your hair, it's not the same as a white person assuming that privilege with a Black person.

[User] Right, not at all.

[Assistant] It's a very different thing.

[User] Completely different.

[Assistant] So, um, you're having these extraordinary experiences. You're learning so much. You've got family back here in Madison. Well, your mom is back here in Madison.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, not at all.

[Assistant] It's a very different thing.

[User] Completely different.

[Assistant] So, um, you're having these extraordinary experiences. You're learning so much. You've got family back here in Madison. Well, your mom is back here in Madison.

[User] Right, and my brother.

[Assistant] And your brother. And the only way to communicate with them is writing letters. Did you have those blue air letters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Completely different.

[Assistant] So, um, you're having these extraordinary experiences. You're learning so much. You've got family back here in Madison. Well, your mom is back here in Madison.

[User] Right, and my brother.

[Assistant] And your brother. And the only way to communicate with them is writing letters. Did you have those blue air letters?

[User] Air grams.

[Assistant] Right. That's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and my brother.

[Assistant] And your brother. And the only way to communicate with them is writing letters. Did you have those blue air letters?

[User] Air grams.

[Assistant] Right. That's right.

[User] You'd write those and for, what would happen for us is that the mail truck would come up and drop the mail down in at the, um, shop down in the valley, and then we'd be sitting at our, on our porch and we could watch the mail coming up by horse. So they would bring the mail up by horse and you could watch. And it was, and then there was a little post.

[Assistant] They'd bring it up to you at the mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Air grams.

[Assistant] Right. That's right.

[User] You'd write those and for, what would happen for us is that the mail truck would come up and drop the mail down in at the, um, shop down in the valley, and then we'd be sitting at our, on our porch and we could watch the mail coming up by horse. So they would bring the mail up by horse and you could watch. And it was, and then there was a little post.

[Assistant] They'd bring it up to you at the mission?

[User] Well, no. At the mission, right, there was a post office on the mission that people. So you could, but you could. It was delivered by horse. And you know, the communication, it would take, it would take a month to two months for the letter to, you know, if you gave it, who knows how long it takes to get back to the U.S.

[Assistant] It might be a month or two months before your mother would get a letter that you had posted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and I'd seen one.

[Assistant] Coming back?

[User] One time I think we went four or five months without hearing from each other. And so she's wondering what the heck's going on. I'm wondering what the heck's going on. I did, during that time, I did call home because I was really worried.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I could book, when I went down to the capital city, you could book a call at the post office. Was that the post office? I can't, I can't remember now. You could book a call into and you could also go into a, you know, we had in the capital city of Maseru, you had a Holiday Inn with the casino. You had a Hilton with a casino, beautiful hotel.

[Assistant] And those hotels had phones?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One time I think we went four or five months without hearing from each other. And so she's wondering what the heck's going on. I'm wondering what the heck's going on. I did, during that time, I did call home because I was really worried.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I could book, when I went down to the capital city, you could book a call at the post office. Was that the post office? I can't, I can't remember now. You could book a call into and you could also go into a, you know, we had in the capital city of Maseru, you had a Holiday Inn with the casino. You had a Hilton with a casino, beautiful hotel.

[Assistant] And those hotels had phones?

[User] They had phones.

[Assistant] Right. Yes, right. That was my experience. I had to go to a fancy hotel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could book, when I went down to the capital city, you could book a call at the post office. Was that the post office? I can't, I can't remember now. You could book a call into and you could also go into a, you know, we had in the capital city of Maseru, you had a Holiday Inn with the casino. You had a Hilton with a casino, beautiful hotel.

[Assistant] And those hotels had phones?

[User] They had phones.

[Assistant] Right. Yes, right. That was my experience. I had to go to a fancy hotel.

[User] Yeah. They were, they were definitely, you know, you didn't stay in those. They were more expensive.

[Assistant] But you went into their lobby, maybe use the bathroom and make a phone call.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had phones.

[Assistant] Right. Yes, right. That was my experience. I had to go to a fancy hotel.

[User] Yeah. They were, they were definitely, you know, you didn't stay in those. They were more expensive.

[Assistant] But you went into their lobby, maybe use the bathroom and make a phone call.

[User] We actually did stay there one time, and this is kind of a funny story. I told you about the ANC in South Africa. Well, the ANC had a raid in South Africa. South Africa closed the borders, actually flew jets over and said they were, because that the Lesotho army captured some South African military. And they said, South Africa said, if you don't return our military, we're going to bomb your capital. So they flew everybody over and there was all this tension. And Peace Corps in its ultimate wisdom, I say that tongue in cheek, brought all the volunteers out of their sites to the capital city, which was exactly where.

[Assistant] Which was the place that would be bombed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They were, they were definitely, you know, you didn't stay in those. They were more expensive.

[Assistant] But you went into their lobby, maybe use the bathroom and make a phone call.

[User] We actually did stay there one time, and this is kind of a funny story. I told you about the ANC in South Africa. Well, the ANC had a raid in South Africa. South Africa closed the borders, actually flew jets over and said they were, because that the Lesotho army captured some South African military. And they said, South Africa said, if you don't return our military, we're going to bomb your capital. So they flew everybody over and there was all this tension. And Peace Corps in its ultimate wisdom, I say that tongue in cheek, brought all the volunteers out of their sites to the capital city, which was exactly where.

[Assistant] Which was the place that would be bombed.

[User] Right. Well, the funny part of it is, so they put us up in the Holiday Inn.

[Assistant] Which is also a casino.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, the funny part of it is, so they put us up in the Holiday Inn.

[Assistant] Which is also a casino.

[User] And they were having the Miss Nude South Africa contest. So there are all these volunteers coming in and there were all these women, you know, and they were white women, sitting around with no tops on and they're sunbathing and it's the Miss Nude. And you had all these Afrikaan men and all these. It was, like.

[Assistant] Surreal.

[User] It was surreal. It was so bizarre. It was so bizarre. And we had some volunteers that lost all their, because there was a casino, there wasn't really anything to do. So they lost all their, their monthly allowance and barely limped back up to their site once they let us go after a couple of days of wisdom saying, well, maybe this isn't the best place for all these volunteers to be. It was just kind of crazy, kind of crazy stuff.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you had a very full two years as a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were having the Miss Nude South Africa contest. So there are all these volunteers coming in and there were all these women, you know, and they were white women, sitting around with no tops on and they're sunbathing and it's the Miss Nude. And you had all these Afrikaan men and all these. It was, like.

[Assistant] Surreal.

[User] It was surreal. It was so bizarre. It was so bizarre. And we had some volunteers that lost all their, because there was a casino, there wasn't really anything to do. So they lost all their, their monthly allowance and barely limped back up to their site once they let us go after a couple of days of wisdom saying, well, maybe this isn't the best place for all these volunteers to be. It was just kind of crazy, kind of crazy stuff.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you had a very full two years as a volunteer.

[User] I did. It was absolutely wonderful.

[Assistant] Is there anything else about that happened during those two years that you want to make sure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. It was absolutely wonderful.

[Assistant] Is there anything else about that happened during those two years that you want to make sure?

[User] Well, I just think the, the, to really kind of focus. The depth of friendships that you get there can change you for a lifetime. You know, it's not just the friendships of other Americans, other volunteers, it's the whole host of things that you learn about. So sitting around and having, talking about, you know, what's going on in Ireland and Northern Ireland and that at the time and their perspectives on that, and talking about all these other things happening in sub-Saharan Africa. You know, that's just, I mean, that's an education that you can't duplicate in any place.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then like I said, Phyllis, I think the biggest thing, and I do. I do. I wish more Americans would do that. You know, then learning about your own role in this world and what can you do or can't do or what do you want to try to, to accomplish? I think it's just. I just think it's invaluable. To me it changed my life. I think it changed the life of my wife. I think it like changed the life of my kids.

[Assistant] Was your wife in the Peace Corps, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I just think the, the, to really kind of focus. The depth of friendships that you get there can change you for a lifetime. You know, it's not just the friendships of other Americans, other volunteers, it's the whole host of things that you learn about. So sitting around and having, talking about, you know, what's going on in Ireland and Northern Ireland and that at the time and their perspectives on that, and talking about all these other things happening in sub-Saharan Africa. You know, that's just, I mean, that's an education that you can't duplicate in any place.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then like I said, Phyllis, I think the biggest thing, and I do. I do. I wish more Americans would do that. You know, then learning about your own role in this world and what can you do or can't do or what do you want to try to, to accomplish? I think it's just. I just think it's invaluable. To me it changed my life. I think it changed the life of my wife. I think it like changed the life of my kids.

[Assistant] Was your wife in the Peace Corps, too?

[User] She wasn't, but she always wishes she was.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah. When you finished your two years, was there some kind of debriefing in maybe Maseru?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then like I said, Phyllis, I think the biggest thing, and I do. I do. I wish more Americans would do that. You know, then learning about your own role in this world and what can you do or can't do or what do you want to try to, to accomplish? I think it's just. I just think it's invaluable. To me it changed my life. I think it changed the life of my wife. I think it like changed the life of my kids.

[Assistant] Was your wife in the Peace Corps, too?

[User] She wasn't, but she always wishes she was.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah. When you finished your two years, was there some kind of debriefing in maybe Maseru?

[User] Yeah, we had. We had, we had those COS conferences, close.

[Assistant] COS being closing of service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had. We had, we had those COS conferences, close.

[Assistant] COS being closing of service.

[User] Conferences. And so we had a close of service conference and debriefing. And I ended up staying a little bit longer because I ended up doing, helping with training and doing some other things with Peace Corps volunteers coming in.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] So my total time was about three years almost in Lesotho. So yeah, it was just an incredible, incredible experience. I still look back on that as, you know, if I, and my wife and I talk about this, about the potential of doing Peace Corps again.

[Assistant] Do you, do you? And you'd do it together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we'd do it together.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. And I don't know if that will happen or not. It depends on our health and things like that. But we'll see because I think it still is an incredible experience. So I would, you know, I, again, I come back to I really do think that having young people do it and learn about this and people learn about them and etcetera is just so incredibly valuable. And man, don't we need it more today than any other time when there's so many tensions and people?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Things that they're saying about other cultures and things, I just.

[Assistant] People are grouping together with like-minded groups.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I don't know if that will happen or not. It depends on our health and things like that. But we'll see because I think it still is an incredible experience. So I would, you know, I, again, I come back to I really do think that having young people do it and learn about this and people learn about them and etcetera is just so incredibly valuable. And man, don't we need it more today than any other time when there's so many tensions and people?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Things that they're saying about other cultures and things, I just.

[Assistant] People are grouping together with like-minded groups.

[User] Yes. Nationalist tendencies that's happening.

[Assistant] Yes. After you left Lesotho, you went on to have a very international life. You were, you were Peace Corps staff in Papua New Guinea as associate director for a couple of years or a year maybe. And then you went on to be associate director and then acting country director in Fiji.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Things that they're saying about other cultures and things, I just.

[Assistant] People are grouping together with like-minded groups.

[User] Yes. Nationalist tendencies that's happening.

[Assistant] Yes. After you left Lesotho, you went on to have a very international life. You were, you were Peace Corps staff in Papua New Guinea as associate director for a couple of years or a year maybe. And then you went on to be associate director and then acting country director in Fiji.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I would think that you'd be the best kind of Peace Corps director because you had been a volunteer yourself and you could, um.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's, to me it was just, it was absolutely wonderful being able to develop projects. One of the things I always emphasize to volunteers at that time too was don't get so hung up on your job. Your job is, yes, you want to try to do some things, but you can't do your job until you really get to know people and understand people. And, and we as Americans, we just want to get in and do stuff.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes.

[User]
Positive or negative in a sense, we just want to see ourselves doing stuff. And that's, that still happens with all these development projects I see today. You know, we want to just do stuff. Well, doing stuff might not be the right thing. We want to try to do the right things. And we can't do stuff for people. People have to do stuff for themselves. We can try to facilitate and help out. And that, that's a long-term commitment. It's not going to happen in a couple of years. So it was always fun kind of talking to people and, you know, that works and doesn't work. And part of that is just learning through experience about that because, you know, you, and the more technical you get.

We had, when I was in Fiji, we had a lot of senior volunteers because it's a, it was a safe country. There wasn't, very little, you know, disease. Beautiful. So we had a lot of retired people that were very successful bankers and, you know, people that were very successful in businesses. And getting them to say, you're not transplanting an America to these places. You've got to figure out how you take the skills that you have but do it within that context. It was extremely difficult. I mean, we had just too many older volunteers that would just say, well, this is the way to do it. If they want to be successful, they need to do it this way.

[Assistant] Yeah, slow down there. Um, some. Uh. Did you go back to school?

[User] I did. I went back.

[Assistant] At some point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Positive or negative in a sense, we just want to see ourselves doing stuff. And that's, that still happens with all these development projects I see today. You know, we want to just do stuff. Well, doing stuff might not be the right thing. We want to try to do the right things. And we can't do stuff for people. People have to do stuff for themselves. We can try to facilitate and help out. And that, that's a long-term commitment. It's not going to happen in a couple of years. So it was always fun kind of talking to people and, you know, that works and doesn't work. And part of that is just learning through experience about that because, you know, you, and the more technical you get.

We had, when I was in Fiji, we had a lot of senior volunteers because it's a, it was a safe country. There wasn't, very little, you know, disease. Beautiful. So we had a lot of retired people that were very successful bankers and, you know, people that were very successful in businesses. And getting them to say, you're not transplanting an America to these places. You've got to figure out how you take the skills that you have but do it within that context. It was extremely difficult. I mean, we had just too many older volunteers that would just say, well, this is the way to do it. If they want to be successful, they need to do it this way.

[Assistant] Yeah, slow down there. Um, some. Uh. Did you go back to school?

[User] I did. I went back.

[Assistant] At some point?

[User] Yes, I did in between, after the Peace Corps. So that time when I was doing the trainings, I was in school. I was in graduate school.

[Assistant] Okay, here at UW?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I went back.

[Assistant] At some point?

[User] Yes, I did in between, after the Peace Corps. So that time when I was doing the trainings, I was in school. I was in graduate school.

[Assistant] Okay, here at UW?

[User] In Madison. I ended up going to Madison because it was just cheaper for me to stay in state and go here.

[Assistant] Sure. And so what were you studying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Madison. I ended up going to Madison because it was just cheaper for me to stay in state and go here.

[Assistant] Sure. And so what were you studying?

[User] I was doing agricultural extension, so I really wanted to work with agricultural extension agents internationally. I had planned to stay overseas the rest of my life working on projects and things. And then I met my wife.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] And we did go overseas to, but my daughter was born and my.

[Assistant] Your wife went with you to Papua New Guinea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was supposed to, that's a whole story where that became. Papua New Guinea is a very, culturally it's the most incredible place I've ever been, but it's also has a lot of security issues. There's a lot of things culturally that happen. So if you do something, if you're a male and you do something to me, I get back at you by doing something to your wife.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it became, it became really. And some things happened that, you know, where some people tried to take my counterpart in the Ministry of Education by gunpoint. And I ended up getting out of this situation, um, and they smashed my window with a shotgun. And I said, my wife can't come.

[Assistant] No.

[User] We had a small, our daughter was just small. So then we went to Fiji and they were in Fiji for two years with us. But then my mother started having health problems, Linda. We said, do we want grandparents as a part of our kids lives? We wanted, we knew we wanted at least one more child. And so that's when we decided to come back and see what happens. And so we came back and, you know, I had been offered a job in Washington, D.C., but I said, I don't, I want to, you know, if we're going to do this, let's have them as a part of their lives. So we ended up settling in Madison. I ended up working at the, where I am now in the College of Ag and Life Sciences in their international programs office, working on international projects all over the world and trying to teach and do some things using my experiences and had some wonderful bosses there.

[Assistant] You spoke of Uganda.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it became, it became really. And some things happened that, you know, where some people tried to take my counterpart in the Ministry of Education by gunpoint. And I ended up getting out of this situation, um, and they smashed my window with a shotgun. And I said, my wife can't come.

[Assistant] No.

[User] We had a small, our daughter was just small. So then we went to Fiji and they were in Fiji for two years with us. But then my mother started having health problems, Linda. We said, do we want grandparents as a part of our kids lives? We wanted, we knew we wanted at least one more child. And so that's when we decided to come back and see what happens. And so we came back and, you know, I had been offered a job in Washington, D.C., but I said, I don't, I want to, you know, if we're going to do this, let's have them as a part of their lives. So we ended up settling in Madison. I ended up working at the, where I am now in the College of Ag and Life Sciences in their international programs office, working on international projects all over the world and trying to teach and do some things using my experiences and had some wonderful bosses there.

[Assistant] You spoke of Uganda.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And I know that, uh, I think a colleague of yours, Dr. Cindy Haq?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a small, our daughter was just small. So then we went to Fiji and they were in Fiji for two years with us. But then my mother started having health problems, Linda. We said, do we want grandparents as a part of our kids lives? We wanted, we knew we wanted at least one more child. And so that's when we decided to come back and see what happens. And so we came back and, you know, I had been offered a job in Washington, D.C., but I said, I don't, I want to, you know, if we're going to do this, let's have them as a part of their lives. So we ended up settling in Madison. I ended up working at the, where I am now in the College of Ag and Life Sciences in their international programs office, working on international projects all over the world and trying to teach and do some things using my experiences and had some wonderful bosses there.

[Assistant] You spoke of Uganda.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And I know that, uh, I think a colleague of yours, Dr. Cindy Haq?

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Has been doing, from the University of Wisconsin Global Health Institute, has also been doing projects in Uganda.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And I know that, uh, I think a colleague of yours, Dr. Cindy Haq?

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Has been doing, from the University of Wisconsin Global Health Institute, has also been doing projects in Uganda.

[User]
Well, we actually helped Cindy start the medical schools program in Uganda. I do this with a colleague, James Ntambi. James is a professor of biochemistry and nutritional sciences here. He's Ugandan. And James and I started this program. This will be our 15th year taking. We teach a course in the fall on international health and nutrition and then take students over winter break to Uganda, where we go to hospitals and clinics and villages. We're based in a village, doing some incredible work in this village, we're really kind of a place based approach over the last four years.

Um, but have worked with Cindy. Cindy did her, part of her residency there back in the eighties, right when the current President Museveni was coming into power. Her daughter is now married to a Ugandan, and Chris and, they have a daughter. And I just saw them last year when I was there because her daughter graduated from medical school here, is doing her residency down at Baylor University in Texas. And they have a big program in Uganda. So Heather had gone back. And so, yeah, Cindy's, Cindy's wonderful.

[Assistant] So you're still at it. You're very much internationally involved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, we actually helped Cindy start the medical schools program in Uganda. I do this with a colleague, James Ntambi. James is a professor of biochemistry and nutritional sciences here. He's Ugandan. And James and I started this program. This will be our 15th year taking. We teach a course in the fall on international health and nutrition and then take students over winter break to Uganda, where we go to hospitals and clinics and villages. We're based in a village, doing some incredible work in this village, we're really kind of a place based approach over the last four years.

Um, but have worked with Cindy. Cindy did her, part of her residency there back in the eighties, right when the current President Museveni was coming into power. Her daughter is now married to a Ugandan, and Chris and, they have a daughter. And I just saw them last year when I was there because her daughter graduated from medical school here, is doing her residency down at Baylor University in Texas. And they have a big program in Uganda. So Heather had gone back. And so, yeah, Cindy's, Cindy's wonderful.

[Assistant] So you're still at it. You're very much internationally involved.

[User] I am. And I am still, you know, I still try to do as much with Peace Corps. I was in charge for a while here when the Peace Corps recruiter was based out of our office. So I would help with the recruiter, and I still do whenever I can, I, I try to help out because it's such an incredible experience. I'd like to get back involved with kind of the Peace Corps group, the returned Peace Corps volunteer group. It's just time.

[Assistant] Time, yeah.

[User] I think I will do that again at some point.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we need to touch on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I will do that again at some point.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we need to touch on?

[User] I don't think so. I just, you know, it's, it's just such an incredible experience. And as I said and I, I wish everybody could do it. It's not for everybody. But I, I just wish people could have that experience of seeing themselves in a different culture and seeing that culture, how that, that experience changes them.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Phyllis.

[Assistant] Thank you, John.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn’t so bad day-wise, I think it was only two days. That was LDEF, I think that was like STS-[32].

[Assistant] What were some of your other memorable ferry flights, and how many have you done since you’ve been here?

[User] I’m trying to recollect. I think I’ve done probably 40 of them, somewhere in that neighborhood, between [SCA] 911 and [SCA] 905. 911 came along in ’89 I think it was. We picked up the second airplane for a couple reasons. They realized that if we had a failure of the 905 for some reason, it would impact the Shuttle program by 18 months because of those skin issues, making those skins. So they went ahead and got the second airplane. I think they started that in probably ’86, and then it finally came to fruition in ’89. I think the first flight was ’90, I think we moved Endeavour on its first flight from Palmdale [California] to here when it was brand new.

[Assistant] Were you on that flight?

[User] Yes. Actually, I was on the airplane too.

[Assistant] That’s right, because it was inert, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to recollect. I think I’ve done probably 40 of them, somewhere in that neighborhood, between [SCA] 911 and [SCA] 905. 911 came along in ’89 I think it was. We picked up the second airplane for a couple reasons. They realized that if we had a failure of the 905 for some reason, it would impact the Shuttle program by 18 months because of those skin issues, making those skins. So they went ahead and got the second airplane. I think they started that in probably ’86, and then it finally came to fruition in ’89. I think the first flight was ’90, I think we moved Endeavour on its first flight from Palmdale [California] to here when it was brand new.

[Assistant] Were you on that flight?

[User] Yes. Actually, I was on the airplane too.

[Assistant] That’s right, because it was inert, right?

[User] Yes, it was inert then.

[Assistant] Tell us about some of those stops.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Structural differences and gear differences. The gear on 911, because it was used as a commuter airplane, it’s actually a 747-SR-46. It’s called short range, SR-46. What that gives you is a beefed-up gear system compared to a normal 100 Model like we have on 905. And it has taller tires, one-inch different-size wheels than 905, which has 16s. The 911 has 17s. That gives you more weight-carrying capability, landing capability.\n\n The total gross weight of either airplane is about the same, 700,000. We don’t want to exceed that. The empty weight of 911 is 323,000, and the empty weight of 905 I think is 318. That’s always a good number to know, because you have to add the Shuttle weight and then you add the fuel weight, and that’s the weight that you don’t want to exceed at the end. You want to be under 700,000.

[Assistant] Do you guys have names for the planes? They’re referred to by their tail numbers.

[User] No no, we never got into that kind of idea. There was a guard on the airplane. 905 had an armed guard on the airplane 24 hours a day because it was a single-source asset. That’s another reason we got 911, to take some of the pressure off the security issue of the airplane. She thought that airplane was hers, she used to call it “the lady.” “How’s my lady, today?” she used to say. That was kind of funny.

[Assistant] So she had that guard from ’77 until you had 911 delivered?

[User] Yes. Well not the same guard, but there was a guard group. She was active there for four or five years I think.

[Assistant] Interesting. Tell us about how many people go on the Pathfinder that you were on. Obviously your crew, and I understand people who were Shuttle folks and DoD [Department of Defense].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a really good group of guys at one time, and over the years toward the end here, it’s not as good as it used to be it seems. It seems like there’s not as much pride in what you were doing as there used to be. That’s just me and my personal thing, but attitudes change. I was just thrilled to be part of this, and these guys it’s like, “It’s a job. Make sure I get my overtime in here on my sheet,” kind of thing.

[Assistant] That was a great experience, and sounds like you’re going to have more with SOFIA.

[User] Yes, I like SOFIA too. I like the position I have there. Now I’m an engineering tech [technician], and what I do is troubleshoot the problems that they’re having on the plane, plus help all the younger guys understand the airplane. It’s kind of complicated, and I write the maintenance manual and a lot of different things. I have a good boss too. I couldn’t believe he let me go on this trip.

[Assistant] Are you going to get to move the Endeavour when she leaves to go to California [California Science Center, Los Angeles]?

[User] I don’t know about that. We’ll see how this one goes. I’m supposed to be doing my maintenance manual and doing this at the same time.

[Assistant] Are you also helping with Enterprise [ferry trip from Washington, D.C. to the Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum in New York City]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we designed some space for it and weight for it. I’m not sure how much they violated the envelope. I know we did go over the life limit we had on the fuel cell. We were beyond any testing we’d ever done before. In fact, I remember Guy [Joseph G.] Thibodaux, who was the Propulsion Division chief, we argued one night and he said, “[unclear] What do you want me to do?” I said, “We don’t have anything better.” I said, “We've got to get up there in two weeks.” He said, “We can’t put another one in. We don’t have one.” So we flew it.

[Assistant] Well, under these unusual circumstances—

[User] Yes, we didn’t have any choice. It worked fine.

[Assistant] As Apollo and Apollo-Soyuz and Skylab, these things are moving on, you’re getting ready for Shuttle, what was your first exposure to the Shuttle Program, your first duty?

[User] The ALT program, Approach and Landing Test. There was sort of a dull spot in there between Mir, Mir was just sort of a stopgap for a week, but between the end of Skylab and ALT, I wasn’t that happy, because things weren’t happening. I wasn’t into working the Shuttle Program at the time. But when we started the ops part of it, then I started getting involved in it. ALT started, picked it up, and then we saw work in a lot of longer-duration sims and stuff like that and getting ready, putting a contingency plan out, all that kind of stuff that goes with that. In fact, at that time I think that we had layoffs at JSC. I think they were cutting people out at that time.

[Assistant] Yes, the reduction-in-force thing, I guess they called it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we didn’t have any choice. It worked fine.

[Assistant] As Apollo and Apollo-Soyuz and Skylab, these things are moving on, you’re getting ready for Shuttle, what was your first exposure to the Shuttle Program, your first duty?

[User] The ALT program, Approach and Landing Test. There was sort of a dull spot in there between Mir, Mir was just sort of a stopgap for a week, but between the end of Skylab and ALT, I wasn’t that happy, because things weren’t happening. I wasn’t into working the Shuttle Program at the time. But when we started the ops part of it, then I started getting involved in it. ALT started, picked it up, and then we saw work in a lot of longer-duration sims and stuff like that and getting ready, putting a contingency plan out, all that kind of stuff that goes with that. In fact, at that time I think that we had layoffs at JSC. I think they were cutting people out at that time.

[Assistant] Yes, the reduction-in-force thing, I guess they called it.

[User] Yes. The RIFs.

[Assistant] You’ve spoken to us in pretty good depth about the Shuttle Program. Could you tell us a little bit about the types of things you’re doing now, what your current jobs are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was really a participant in those, but a pretty active one. The U.S. Geological Survey people were commonly the ones, and the people at Johnson Space Center who were designated to be in charge of crew training at those times. So there would be the principal investigator of the field geology experiment, who would be Gordon Swann early on and Bill Muehlberger later—well, initially Gene Shoemaker, then Gordon Swann, then Bill Muehlberger. So between them and the people at Johnson Space Center, they had arranged for where are we going to go, and then they’d do all the logistical arrangements through their staffs, and then we’d just have a division of labor and go from there.

[Assistant] And then when you got to the traverse and the service activities, were those areas that you also planned, did you plan those specifically?

[User] Yes, on the field trips, you mean?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, I ranged everywhere from being CapCom person in the tents to—we each took turns doing things, like keeping track of the traverse, all the kinds of activities that we would do in mission control during the actual missions themselves. So, yes, we’d trade those around, depending on what’s going on.

[Assistant] Did you have any input on who was the CapCom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, on the field trips, you mean?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, I ranged everywhere from being CapCom person in the tents to—we each took turns doing things, like keeping track of the traverse, all the kinds of activities that we would do in mission control during the actual missions themselves. So, yes, we’d trade those around, depending on what’s going on.

[Assistant] Did you have any input on who was the CapCom?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] That was selection totally by NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] That was selection totally by NASA?

[User] Yes. Probably by the head of the astronaut corps and maybe whoever was head of the ASPO or something. I think it was—I’m not sure, I don’t actually know how it was done, but I—

[Assistant] Just curious.

[User] Yes. No, somewhere in there. They were uniformly good. I mean, Joe [Joseph P.] Allen was fantastic on Apollo 15. I mean, he’s such a great guy. He’s easy-going anyway. But, yes, they were excellent.

[Assistant] And it was their role in this as well, that they knew the geo terms.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Probably by the head of the astronaut corps and maybe whoever was head of the ASPO or something. I think it was—I’m not sure, I don’t actually know how it was done, but I—

[Assistant] Just curious.

[User] Yes. No, somewhere in there. They were uniformly good. I mean, Joe [Joseph P.] Allen was fantastic on Apollo 15. I mean, he’s such a great guy. He’s easy-going anyway. But, yes, they were excellent.

[Assistant] And it was their role in this as well, that they knew the geo terms.

[User] Right, absolutely. That was really essential, yes. So they went on most of the field trips, if not all of them, and also participated in a variety of other training sessions.

[Assistant] At some point you trained, and you sent word. The management staff brought them down to, or encouraged them to come down to show them how you were working in the field and what use that was. Could you share with us how that happened, where you had some of these key individuals come down on the field trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. From probably 12 on, in the support or the support-support room, yes. Not for Apollo 11.

[Assistant] Where were you for Apollo 11?

[User] I was home, basically. Yes, it was pretty amazing. Yes, because that was not a geology mission, per se. It was a really small group of people. It was just the core, total core there, and I hadn’t been in the thing that long at that point. Actually, the success of that really was what caused things to blossom on Apollo 12. They carried geological maps, and in Apollo 13, there was much more training and a lot more, and on and on it went. It was great.

[Assistant] How much difference does the rover make in achieving the accomplishments from the science area?

[User] Just orders of magnitude difference. You were traveling to a radius of seven kilometers. I have a plot, actually, that I made up which has all the traverses, including the Soviet Lunokhod traverses, all in the same scale. It just is incredible when you look at the difference between Apollo 11, 12, 14, and then the J missions, 15, 16, and 17. Just amazing. So you had to cover a lot more ground. You could see things in between. You could go to places you couldn’t get to otherwise. So you could go to two or three or four different major objectives and successfully investigate them. Yes, it was just a very, very fundamental delta in this system from a science return point of view. Plus, you also had twenty-one hours of surface EVA, which is—that’s a lot of time.

[Assistant] The geological findings, did they meet up to your expectations, or did you have expectations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to remember if we had anybody from outside the agency. I think we did, maybe some retired people, one retired guy from JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]. We had people from KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida], Tim Barth was at KSC. We had a number of people from JSC—some were here, some were still at JSC. We had Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California]. I don’t think we had anybody from Dryden [Flight Research Center, California], but we definitely had people from Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland]. Neil Dennehy, my deputy, was at Goddard. I think we had one person from Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. It was mostly NASA employees, mostly NESC employees, but we come from all Centers. We’re pretty well represented across the country.

[Assistant] Did you receive unsolicited help? Sometimes when word gets out that you’re working on something, people from outside the agency want to send you suggestions. Or was this pretty much a closed discussion within the people that you selected to be on that team?

[User] I know that some of the Tech Fellows went out to their people, their technical discipline teams, and asked for advice, but those people never got into our meetings. I don’t know how extensive that was. I think it was so short-fused that there wasn’t a lot of time for people to give us unsolicited advice.

[Assistant] Did you select these people, or did people give you names? How did you actually come up with the working group?

[User] The Tech Fellows, there’s maybe 15 or 16 of them. I just got all the ones that were available. I think all of them were.

[Assistant] I would assume they were working on another project someplace, so they were able to stop what they were doing to work on this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know that some of the Tech Fellows went out to their people, their technical discipline teams, and asked for advice, but those people never got into our meetings. I don’t know how extensive that was. I think it was so short-fused that there wasn’t a lot of time for people to give us unsolicited advice.

[Assistant] Did you select these people, or did people give you names? How did you actually come up with the working group?

[User] The Tech Fellows, there’s maybe 15 or 16 of them. I just got all the ones that were available. I think all of them were.

[Assistant] I would assume they were working on another project someplace, so they were able to stop what they were doing to work on this?

[User] Yes, pretty much. Some of them came in for a while and had to step out for a little bit, but the majority of them spent most of their time with us.

[Assistant] Part of what you did is your recommendations for the guidelines. As you mentioned, you included aspects from the behavioral health and the medical doctors. Were they involved in these discussions or were you using inputs they had given to you previously?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, pretty much. Some of them came in for a while and had to step out for a little bit, but the majority of them spent most of their time with us.

[Assistant] Part of what you did is your recommendations for the guidelines. As you mentioned, you included aspects from the behavioral health and the medical doctors. Were they involved in these discussions or were you using inputs they had given to you previously?

[User] One or two of them was involved initially. I knew they wanted specific things. We had talked about it at the mine site, and we had talked about it at the airport before we came home. Some of the things that they wanted for medical reasons were the same kind of things that we wanted for engineering reasons. For example, we wanted lighting in the thing so that the individual had situational awareness. In case the thing got stuck we’d be able, or the Chileans would be able, to talk to the guy and, him being right there, to figure out what was wrong. On the other hand, the doctors wanted lighting for morale purposes. The doctors, psychologists wanted to keep the guys’ spirits up. We wanted two-way communications, again, to help out if there’s any issues on the capsule coming up. They wanted it so that they could talk to the individual in case he was experiencing some kind of medical issue.\n\n I think we got everything the doctors wanted. After I got done with it, J.D. Polk and I talked for quite some time about the paper, and I think he was good with everything that we had put in there. Somehow I got all their inputs and some of the other inputs they had. You’ll see in this paper that we’ve listed if the requirement had anything to do with medical. They wanted to have some oxygen onboard in case the air coming up was bad in the borehole. I think we got everything.

[Assistant] There’s so many unknowns. Were you still working on the premise that it could be anywhere from an hour to four hours to get them out?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Of course, that changed drastically as they moved along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct, yes.

[Assistant] Since 2003, you’ve had an opportunity to see, as you just mentioned, how these people come together. Did you find anything different with this group of challenges? It was so different in the sense that you weren’t dealing with “normal” NASA, that the NESC steps out and helps industry when it needs to. So did you approach it differently, or is it the same as you have done in the past?

[User] I suppose I approached it somewhat similar to the way I’ve tackled problems here at the NESC before. I’d never been involved in mining in my life, but in my talks with the Chilean navy people, they hadn’t been there either. Once we understood what the mining guys were going to provide us, which was like a 26-inch borehole that went down a half mile, it became just really an engineering problem to figure out how we were going to extract them. So with all that background it was sort of out of the ordinary, but then again it wasn’t because it was an engineering problem.

[Assistant] Which I find interesting because you went down as a possible assistant to the medical folks, yet engineering took such a step forward in helping solve this problem.

[User] Right, it was fortuitous. We were looking to help out in any way we could, and this is one way that I thought NASA could help.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about the team dynamics of you working closely with the other three members of the team. We just talked about how you came back and worked with engineers, but had you worked with J.D. or Al or Mike before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose I approached it somewhat similar to the way I’ve tackled problems here at the NESC before. I’d never been involved in mining in my life, but in my talks with the Chilean navy people, they hadn’t been there either. Once we understood what the mining guys were going to provide us, which was like a 26-inch borehole that went down a half mile, it became just really an engineering problem to figure out how we were going to extract them. So with all that background it was sort of out of the ordinary, but then again it wasn’t because it was an engineering problem.

[Assistant] Which I find interesting because you went down as a possible assistant to the medical folks, yet engineering took such a step forward in helping solve this problem.

[User] Right, it was fortuitous. We were looking to help out in any way we could, and this is one way that I thought NASA could help.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about the team dynamics of you working closely with the other three members of the team. We just talked about how you came back and worked with engineers, but had you worked with J.D. or Al or Mike before?

[User] No, didn’t know them. It was the first time I met them, and I thought we got along very well from the start. We were all fish out of water, so to speak; none of us had ever done something like this before. I think all of us were trying our hardest to be able to help the Chileans and give them something that they could use based on our experiences. So we were really supporting each other, I think, and really put our nose to the grindstone when we were down there. I got along with them real well, and now we’re best friends.

[Assistant] I hear you have a team name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, it was fortuitous. We were looking to help out in any way we could, and this is one way that I thought NASA could help.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about the team dynamics of you working closely with the other three members of the team. We just talked about how you came back and worked with engineers, but had you worked with J.D. or Al or Mike before?

[User] No, didn’t know them. It was the first time I met them, and I thought we got along very well from the start. We were all fish out of water, so to speak; none of us had ever done something like this before. I think all of us were trying our hardest to be able to help the Chileans and give them something that they could use based on our experiences. So we were really supporting each other, I think, and really put our nose to the grindstone when we were down there. I got along with them real well, and now we’re best friends.

[Assistant] I hear you have a team name.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] You said about two weeks after you submitted the paper you heard back. What became of your involvement after that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, didn’t know them. It was the first time I met them, and I thought we got along very well from the start. We were all fish out of water, so to speak; none of us had ever done something like this before. I think all of us were trying our hardest to be able to help the Chileans and give them something that they could use based on our experiences. So we were really supporting each other, I think, and really put our nose to the grindstone when we were down there. I got along with them real well, and now we’re best friends.

[Assistant] I hear you have a team name.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] You said about two weeks after you submitted the paper you heard back. What became of your involvement after that time period?

[User] Not much at all. I’d heard maybe once again from the doctor, and I’ve had a number of correspondences with the navy submarine captain, but really outside this issue just kind of friendly banter. We weren’t asked anything else, and I don’t know how much the others were asked either. I don’t fault the Chileans, I think they did exactly as I would have done it. They asked for help, we gave them our advice, they took the advice and ran with it. Then, as the time came for the rescue, it was a Chilean show. And it really needed to be, I think, a Chilean show. They did the majority of the work, they really kept those guys alive, so I don’t fault them for that. After we had given them our suggestions, they didn’t come back, at least too much. I know that J.D. had talked to the naval doctor maybe a couple times about some other issues, but I don’t think it was very extensive.

[Assistant] This engineering contribution had an urgency because you had human lives at stake. How did that impact the discussions when you were trying to work within that one-week deadline?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We obviously knew we wanted to make this thing strong, and we also wanted, again, to get them something, because it would really be bad if they finished the borehole first and this capsule wasn’t ready. Some of the brighter—well, they’re all bright—Tech Fellows relied heavily on this document called “Personnel Lifting Standards.” It’s the documentation that provides for how to build elevators and things like that. I’m conjecturing here, but there’s specific factors of safety that are involved, so we treated this capsule like that and drew upon these already accepted guidelines in the United States for building a structure that was going to lift people. We were well aware that we were dealing with the safety of these people and we wanted to make sure that this thing did not fail.

[Assistant] You were here in the States living your normal day-to-day duties whenever you were watching the rescue?

[User] Yes, it’s pretty cool.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to share with your team that the Chilean government had accepted many of your guidelines, you were able to get that feedback back to them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that there is a possibility that the four of you will be returning to Chile. What are your expectations or what would you like to accomplish going back to the site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it’s pretty cool.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to share with your team that the Chilean government had accepted many of your guidelines, you were able to get that feedback back to them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that there is a possibility that the four of you will be returning to Chile. What are your expectations or what would you like to accomplish going back to the site?

[User] I think I’d like to garner some lessons learned. Maybe NASA could help out in a situation like this in the future. This particular case was, in my understanding, an unprecedented event. The Chileans were really writing the book on this, how to save some people from a half mile down in this type of conditions. For NASA to come down and help, I think really shows the strength of our agency, but if we could somehow figure out how to codify this a little better, maybe in the future if we get asked to help out with some other issue we would be better prepared. This one was pretty much ad hoc, as I understand it. I’d like to get that out of it. I’d like to see how things went with the suggestions that we made and if there were any other issues where we could have helped more, or didn’t help enough. I think lessons learned, we could get quite a bit of good info. The doctors also would hopefully get some information that would help their studies in long-term survival in austere environments.

[Assistant] Do you feel like, just from this process of going down on the site survey and then coming back and putting this tiger team together, you have lessons learned from that that you’ll be able to apply for another situation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that there is a possibility that the four of you will be returning to Chile. What are your expectations or what would you like to accomplish going back to the site?

[User] I think I’d like to garner some lessons learned. Maybe NASA could help out in a situation like this in the future. This particular case was, in my understanding, an unprecedented event. The Chileans were really writing the book on this, how to save some people from a half mile down in this type of conditions. For NASA to come down and help, I think really shows the strength of our agency, but if we could somehow figure out how to codify this a little better, maybe in the future if we get asked to help out with some other issue we would be better prepared. This one was pretty much ad hoc, as I understand it. I’d like to get that out of it. I’d like to see how things went with the suggestions that we made and if there were any other issues where we could have helped more, or didn’t help enough. I think lessons learned, we could get quite a bit of good info. The doctors also would hopefully get some information that would help their studies in long-term survival in austere environments.

[Assistant] Do you feel like, just from this process of going down on the site survey and then coming back and putting this tiger team together, you have lessons learned from that that you’ll be able to apply for another situation?

[User] Yes, I think so. I think the lessons learned that I’ll take back is that you can get NASA engineers to do pretty much anything. Having that team here and ready to go as soon as we came back into work after Labor Day was really key to the success, and the fact that they were all charged up and ready to work helped too.

[Assistant] As a leadership lesson, do you have something you can share on how you were able to work through some of those heated discussions? Can you give us an example? For instance, maybe one of the discussions that you had to settle, how did you come to the conclusion of what to put in that list of guidelines?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is one of those trips where you work all day and then we got invited out to dinner, and being a Latin country or like a European country, they all eat late. A lady who worked for the minister of economics in the region had us all over for dinner at her house. It was very nice, she was very gracious. We got back to the hotel late, got up early and went back to work. Then the third night we got invited over to the doctor’s house. We didn’t get there until 11 p.m., and the next morning was an early flight. So we did get to socialize a little bit. Then the last day we flew back from Copiapó and we had five or six hours in Santiago. I was told the minister of health got us a tour guide to give us a windshield tour of Santiago. I thought that was very interesting.

[Assistant] What a nice gesture.

[User] Ask the doctors. All the doctors fell asleep, but I was very interested, so I stayed awake.

[Assistant] I’d like to end with your thoughts of what you felt personally of your involvement as you watched the miners being able to reach the surface, knowing that some of the work that you had done had helped ensure their rescue.

[User] Well, you may expect I was concerned about that, but I was very, very relieved when things started going as well as they did. It just seemed that the capsule—and again, I didn’t design it, I didn’t build it, we just provided suggestions—but I thought that the way they had built it, it was performing pretty flawlessly. So I was pretty happy about that. Very relieved, actually.

[Assistant] I’m glad it worked out well for everyone. Thank you for this morning. You gave us some great information, and I appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In terms of the emails that they claimed were deleted and lost?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yeah. That was going on when I got here, and there had been claims that emails have been destroyed by the White House during the Bush administration. And again, I'm not Mr. Technology, but essentially, as it was explained to me was that it pretty much was how those emails were stored, and where they were stored, and what buckets they were in, and so forth. There was a resolution of that with the reconstructing of those lost emails from where they were found, and that was all done, litigation on that was resolved. And so, I think that was kind of symptomatic of coming into this new age of, how best do you preserve these, and how do you store them, how do you access them. I think a learning thing for the White House and for us, but at the end of the day, we have them, and we have a lot of them.

[Assistant] Are there any stories that surround that incident, or other controversies in your ten years, or a little bit less?

[User] Yeah. I'm trying to think. No more around that. I mean, that was pretty straightforward, frankly, of the people who have much more knowledge trying to sort out exactly where those emails had ended up, right? And then, going through with Gary Stern. We worked a lot with NARA's general counsel. I've known Gary for many, many years, and Chris Runkel has been one of my closest friends, and a great adviser. Working with those folks and their staff to try to figure all that out with the technology people. So, no other really big things around that. I'm trying to think of other controversies. Gosh, I hate to act like I'm controversy-free. That's boring. Nothing big, in terms of actual.

[Assistant] Well, the reason why I say that is because Bush's eight years could be considered controversial by many.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That was going on when I got here, and there had been claims that emails have been destroyed by the White House during the Bush administration. And again, I'm not Mr. Technology, but essentially, as it was explained to me was that it pretty much was how those emails were stored, and where they were stored, and what buckets they were in, and so forth. There was a resolution of that with the reconstructing of those lost emails from where they were found, and that was all done, litigation on that was resolved. And so, I think that was kind of symptomatic of coming into this new age of, how best do you preserve these, and how do you store them, how do you access them. I think a learning thing for the White House and for us, but at the end of the day, we have them, and we have a lot of them.

[Assistant] Are there any stories that surround that incident, or other controversies in your ten years, or a little bit less?

[User] Yeah. I'm trying to think. No more around that. I mean, that was pretty straightforward, frankly, of the people who have much more knowledge trying to sort out exactly where those emails had ended up, right? And then, going through with Gary Stern. We worked a lot with NARA's general counsel. I've known Gary for many, many years, and Chris Runkel has been one of my closest friends, and a great adviser. Working with those folks and their staff to try to figure all that out with the technology people. So, no other really big things around that. I'm trying to think of other controversies. Gosh, I hate to act like I'm controversy-free. That's boring. Nothing big, in terms of actual.

[Assistant] Well, the reason why I say that is because Bush's eight years could be considered controversial by many.

[User] Well, yeah, of course.

[Assistant] A lot has happened. I was just wondering if any of that has transferred over into the library?