[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, actually, he met a woman in Venezuela and came back to Seattle for a visit before returning to Venezuela, where he was living. So he was able to stop the Miami during my training period and we saw each other.

[Assistant] And you were part of the famous Micronesia I training group. So, what can you say about that?

[User] Well, we were so many. They were deselected left and right throughout the training period. But they said that, you know, just getting anybody basically right out of college for this Micro I program. At the Marina Hotel in Key West, Florida. All of the Micronesian volunteers were together in the hotel. But we also with our own groups and we had our own rotating schedules, and we didn't really have much opportunity to talk about the other Micronesia volunteers. I remember very painfully the language tests that they gave us.

[Assistant] Who was your language trainers?

[User] Oh, I just had their names. Robert [inaudible], Caleb [inaudible], [inaudible], Victor [inaudible], John Stool, and the two women were Annie Hama, and [inaudible]. They are all deceased now. They were all teachers. I realize now that they gave up an awful lot to come so far away from their families for the three months. It was probably very intense for them.

[Assistant] I remember our, not so much the [inaudible] but especially the ones from [inaudible]. They were just kind of freaked when we were in Honolulu, it was the big city. [inaudible].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I just had their names. Robert [inaudible], Caleb [inaudible], [inaudible], Victor [inaudible], John Stool, and the two women were Annie Hama, and [inaudible]. They are all deceased now. They were all teachers. I realize now that they gave up an awful lot to come so far away from their families for the three months. It was probably very intense for them.

[Assistant] I remember our, not so much the [inaudible] but especially the ones from [inaudible]. They were just kind of freaked when we were in Honolulu, it was the big city. [inaudible].

[User] And then, um, Father, well he wasn’t yet Father, but Felix Yau was training at Woodstock at that time. So he was hired and came down for a week or so and spoke to us.

[Assistant] Cultural stuff?

[User] Yeah, cultural stuff.

[Assistant] So, what did you think of the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then, um, Father, well he wasn’t yet Father, but Felix Yau was training at Woodstock at that time. So he was hired and came down for a week or so and spoke to us.

[Assistant] Cultural stuff?

[User] Yeah, cultural stuff.

[Assistant] So, what did you think of the training?

[User] Well, it was such a new experience. It was really unforgettable. I mean we had the time in Key West and then we went out to these smaller islands, Little Munson, where we camped. We learned how to [inaudible]. We learned how to fight the mosquitoes, scale a fish, or you know, these cultural things, I mean. We spent some time in Miami staying in a hotel, and then we were doing, going out in small groups in the community. So I remember going to like impoverished neighborhoods with a community worker, social worker I guess. Just kind of meeting one-on- one with people. I don’t know what really it was training us for. Maybe the best part of our training that was relevant to coming here was the hurricane that we had. Really really bad hurricane. I remember sitting on the floor of the hotel watching the wind and the rain just whipping by. Housebound for the duration. And then all the shots that we had to get, that was a memorable part of the training. I don't know what the reason we're here, so they were shooting immunizations for everything and some people got really really sick. Big doses of whatever.

[Assistant] Were most of the people have an education background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. And then went to the old townhouse to buy aloha shirts and muumuus, you know, to come to the islands.

[Assistant] So, why don’t you say a few words about your first impressions of Palau.

[User]
Certainly the beauty of the place really struck me. And when we were driving in from the airport into Koror and looking down out of the bus window, looking down at the terraced gardens and the [inaudible] gardens, just how beautiful it was. So green. It's really very beautiful. We all stayed in an abai. There were 26 of us who were all in this one big room in the abai. The community people brought pillows and sheets for us. But we had no privacy. So the girls, we would take turn holding a sheet up so we could change our clothes. But being the first group with so many white skin Americans, I remember there were slats all around the abai and there’d just be brown faces. All the kids were coming in and they were just so curious to see how we slept, how we ate, and everything. And then the community, certain hamlets, were assigned to feed us. They were trying to outdo each other. So all this food for every meal and then you were taken around and met some of the territory employees and given a further introduction about what we’re going be doing, who was who, and so on.

So we were in Koror about a week and then we were sent out to our sites. I was assigned to [inaudible].

[Assistant] Which is in the big island. Nice beach?

[User] No beach, no beach in sight, just mangroves.

[Assistant] So you stayed with a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Certainly the beauty of the place really struck me. And when we were driving in from the airport into Koror and looking down out of the bus window, looking down at the terraced gardens and the [inaudible] gardens, just how beautiful it was. So green. It's really very beautiful. We all stayed in an abai. There were 26 of us who were all in this one big room in the abai. The community people brought pillows and sheets for us. But we had no privacy. So the girls, we would take turn holding a sheet up so we could change our clothes. But being the first group with so many white skin Americans, I remember there were slats all around the abai and there’d just be brown faces. All the kids were coming in and they were just so curious to see how we slept, how we ate, and everything. And then the community, certain hamlets, were assigned to feed us. They were trying to outdo each other. So all this food for every meal and then you were taken around and met some of the territory employees and given a further introduction about what we’re going be doing, who was who, and so on.

So we were in Koror about a week and then we were sent out to our sites. I was assigned to [inaudible].

[Assistant] Which is in the big island. Nice beach?

[User] No beach, no beach in sight, just mangroves.

[Assistant] So you stayed with a family?

[User] No, I stayed [inaudible] were assigned to a house owned by a family, but the family was actually in Koror. So just the two of us there in the house. Actually it had been moved in by, the previous year, by an American teacher [inaudible]. So there was like a bed, some furniture, but [inaudible].

[Assistant] What was the school like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No beach, no beach in sight, just mangroves.

[Assistant] So you stayed with a family?

[User] No, I stayed [inaudible] were assigned to a house owned by a family, but the family was actually in Koror. So just the two of us there in the house. Actually it had been moved in by, the previous year, by an American teacher [inaudible]. So there was like a bed, some furniture, but [inaudible].

[Assistant] What was the school like?

[User] The school, I don't know, I was assigned to teach [inaudible]. For some reason, I just freaked out. I think I had culture shock. It just wasn’t the right fit for me. Gene and I were friends but not really close and I just didn't feel that it was a good mix for us to be together.

[Assistant] What did you [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I stayed [inaudible] were assigned to a house owned by a family, but the family was actually in Koror. So just the two of us there in the house. Actually it had been moved in by, the previous year, by an American teacher [inaudible]. So there was like a bed, some furniture, but [inaudible].

[Assistant] What was the school like?

[User] The school, I don't know, I was assigned to teach [inaudible]. For some reason, I just freaked out. I think I had culture shock. It just wasn’t the right fit for me. Gene and I were friends but not really close and I just didn't feel that it was a good mix for us to be together.

[Assistant] What did you [inaudible]?

[User] We started to but then some woman would cook for us [inaudible]. I remember doing my own laundry and how the heck I was supposed to wash my sheets and hang them up on the line and I know we could never get [inaudible] so we have to call somebody down to help somebody [inaudible]. The house had a kerosene refrigerator. I felt guilty about using it because we were supposed to be roughing it. Like we wouldn't sleep on the bed because we were supposed to be roughing it, you know. [inaudible] You know, we were trying to tough it out. So anyway, after right after the Christmas break when we all came into Koror for the training and I just kind of broke down, but I didn't want to go home, so they just reassigned me to Koror.

[Assistant] So actually what month did you get to Palau?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The school, I don't know, I was assigned to teach [inaudible]. For some reason, I just freaked out. I think I had culture shock. It just wasn’t the right fit for me. Gene and I were friends but not really close and I just didn't feel that it was a good mix for us to be together.

[Assistant] What did you [inaudible]?

[User] We started to but then some woman would cook for us [inaudible]. I remember doing my own laundry and how the heck I was supposed to wash my sheets and hang them up on the line and I know we could never get [inaudible] so we have to call somebody down to help somebody [inaudible]. The house had a kerosene refrigerator. I felt guilty about using it because we were supposed to be roughing it. Like we wouldn't sleep on the bed because we were supposed to be roughing it, you know. [inaudible] You know, we were trying to tough it out. So anyway, after right after the Christmas break when we all came into Koror for the training and I just kind of broke down, but I didn't want to go home, so they just reassigned me to Koror.

[Assistant] So actually what month did you get to Palau?

[User] We came in November 1966. The first day was a Sunday. I will never forget that day. [inaudible] So I was transferred into Koror. [inaudible] So a lot of my former students still remember, some of them, I think are still in therapy over that. This frightening tall white American woman, you know, coming in and forcing you to speak English. For some it was terrifying.

[Assistant] So then where were you living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We started to but then some woman would cook for us [inaudible]. I remember doing my own laundry and how the heck I was supposed to wash my sheets and hang them up on the line and I know we could never get [inaudible] so we have to call somebody down to help somebody [inaudible]. The house had a kerosene refrigerator. I felt guilty about using it because we were supposed to be roughing it. Like we wouldn't sleep on the bed because we were supposed to be roughing it, you know. [inaudible] You know, we were trying to tough it out. So anyway, after right after the Christmas break when we all came into Koror for the training and I just kind of broke down, but I didn't want to go home, so they just reassigned me to Koror.

[Assistant] So actually what month did you get to Palau?

[User] We came in November 1966. The first day was a Sunday. I will never forget that day. [inaudible] So I was transferred into Koror. [inaudible] So a lot of my former students still remember, some of them, I think are still in therapy over that. This frightening tall white American woman, you know, coming in and forcing you to speak English. For some it was terrifying.

[Assistant] So then where were you living?

[User] Uh, well, I lived on the main road with a family. They had a store in front. And then right after Typhoon Sally, I moved in with [inaudible] mother who was a widow and lived alone. So March or April of ’67, yeah after the typhoon because she had some damage. [inaudible] Because there were two women alone in the house, some neighborhood men would knock on the window at night and that was frightening to me. I couldn't sleep. So I found a family [inaudible] and moved in with them and they had a lot of kids.

[Assistant] These other places you went to were kind of hamlets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We came in November 1966. The first day was a Sunday. I will never forget that day. [inaudible] So I was transferred into Koror. [inaudible] So a lot of my former students still remember, some of them, I think are still in therapy over that. This frightening tall white American woman, you know, coming in and forcing you to speak English. For some it was terrifying.

[Assistant] So then where were you living?

[User] Uh, well, I lived on the main road with a family. They had a store in front. And then right after Typhoon Sally, I moved in with [inaudible] mother who was a widow and lived alone. So March or April of ’67, yeah after the typhoon because she had some damage. [inaudible] Because there were two women alone in the house, some neighborhood men would knock on the window at night and that was frightening to me. I couldn't sleep. So I found a family [inaudible] and moved in with them and they had a lot of kids.

[Assistant] These other places you went to were kind of hamlets?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Say a word or two about the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, well, I lived on the main road with a family. They had a store in front. And then right after Typhoon Sally, I moved in with [inaudible] mother who was a widow and lived alone. So March or April of ’67, yeah after the typhoon because she had some damage. [inaudible] Because there were two women alone in the house, some neighborhood men would knock on the window at night and that was frightening to me. I couldn't sleep. So I found a family [inaudible] and moved in with them and they had a lot of kids.

[Assistant] These other places you went to were kind of hamlets?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Say a word or two about the school?

[User] When I first went there the Missionary Sisters were running the school. And I was not a Catholic. So I was very unfamiliar about nuns and white habits, saying rosaries, and talking to Mother Angelica and all this, but they were very warm and gracious to me. Really made me feel comfortable.

[Assistant] And that’s the elementary school for the Catholic school system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Say a word or two about the school?

[User] When I first went there the Missionary Sisters were running the school. And I was not a Catholic. So I was very unfamiliar about nuns and white habits, saying rosaries, and talking to Mother Angelica and all this, but they were very warm and gracious to me. Really made me feel comfortable.

[Assistant] And that’s the elementary school for the Catholic school system?

[User] Right, right. Just the one elementary school and then [inaudible] the high school.

[Assistant] So, you spent the rest of your tour as a teaching [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I first went there the Missionary Sisters were running the school. And I was not a Catholic. So I was very unfamiliar about nuns and white habits, saying rosaries, and talking to Mother Angelica and all this, but they were very warm and gracious to me. Really made me feel comfortable.

[Assistant] And that’s the elementary school for the Catholic school system?

[User] Right, right. Just the one elementary school and then [inaudible] the high school.

[Assistant] So, you spent the rest of your tour as a teaching [inaudible]?

[User] No, I spent the two years teaching just at Maris Stella. During that time is when I met Juan. And he was actually he had just returned from, he had just graduated from Canisius College. So he had just got back.

[Assistant] Canisius in Buffalo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. Just the one elementary school and then [inaudible] the high school.

[Assistant] So, you spent the rest of your tour as a teaching [inaudible]?

[User] No, I spent the two years teaching just at Maris Stella. During that time is when I met Juan. And he was actually he had just returned from, he had just graduated from Canisius College. So he had just got back.

[Assistant] Canisius in Buffalo?

[User] In Buffalo, right. The Jesuits sent him there. He was teaching at the high school, so we met at this massive ceremony after the birth of the first child [inaudible]. And it was right across from this bar called The Boom-Boom Room. Well, they gave us first plates of food and we had no place to sit down there. So her uncle Robert owned the Boom-Boom. So we were happy that Robert opened up the Boom-Boom on Sunday afternoon, closed of course. So we went in [inaudible] and sitting down and then Juan and his cousin [inaudible] were there checking out the Peace Corps. And they came over and that’s where I first met him, at the Boom-Boom Room. That’s the reason why I extended a third year was to kind of see if things were going to work out and we really were going to get married and this is where I’d spend the rest of my life.

[Assistant] So what did you do for your third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I spent the two years teaching just at Maris Stella. During that time is when I met Juan. And he was actually he had just returned from, he had just graduated from Canisius College. So he had just got back.

[Assistant] Canisius in Buffalo?

[User] In Buffalo, right. The Jesuits sent him there. He was teaching at the high school, so we met at this massive ceremony after the birth of the first child [inaudible]. And it was right across from this bar called The Boom-Boom Room. Well, they gave us first plates of food and we had no place to sit down there. So her uncle Robert owned the Boom-Boom. So we were happy that Robert opened up the Boom-Boom on Sunday afternoon, closed of course. So we went in [inaudible] and sitting down and then Juan and his cousin [inaudible] were there checking out the Peace Corps. And they came over and that’s where I first met him, at the Boom-Boom Room. That’s the reason why I extended a third year was to kind of see if things were going to work out and we really were going to get married and this is where I’d spend the rest of my life.

[Assistant] So what did you do for your third year?

[User] The same. I was still at Maris Stella teaching. And by that third year, really, I was feeling much more comfortable about the teaching and really getting into it. I think the kids, at least that new year’s, you know, kind of got the feel of what’s going on.

[Assistant] So. In addition to teaching, what other kinds of things did you do for fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Buffalo, right. The Jesuits sent him there. He was teaching at the high school, so we met at this massive ceremony after the birth of the first child [inaudible]. And it was right across from this bar called The Boom-Boom Room. Well, they gave us first plates of food and we had no place to sit down there. So her uncle Robert owned the Boom-Boom. So we were happy that Robert opened up the Boom-Boom on Sunday afternoon, closed of course. So we went in [inaudible] and sitting down and then Juan and his cousin [inaudible] were there checking out the Peace Corps. And they came over and that’s where I first met him, at the Boom-Boom Room. That’s the reason why I extended a third year was to kind of see if things were going to work out and we really were going to get married and this is where I’d spend the rest of my life.

[Assistant] So what did you do for your third year?

[User] The same. I was still at Maris Stella teaching. And by that third year, really, I was feeling much more comfortable about the teaching and really getting into it. I think the kids, at least that new year’s, you know, kind of got the feel of what’s going on.

[Assistant] So. In addition to teaching, what other kinds of things did you do for fun?

[User] During the summer, we were supposed to be working. And so kind of on my own initiative and with Steve Lewis, who was also in my group, we did this waitress training program. We felt that the waitresses here didn't really know how to properly set the table in order to serve them, which I mean, so we just did this seminar on waitress training program. And then also maybe it was my third year, although it might have been after I was finished being a volunteer because I continued to teach, but anyway I started a Girl Scouts troop. There was a, for a few years, a Girl Scout program here. So I had a Girl Scout troop.

[Assistant] Had you been a Scout?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same. I was still at Maris Stella teaching. And by that third year, really, I was feeling much more comfortable about the teaching and really getting into it. I think the kids, at least that new year’s, you know, kind of got the feel of what’s going on.

[Assistant] So. In addition to teaching, what other kinds of things did you do for fun?

[User] During the summer, we were supposed to be working. And so kind of on my own initiative and with Steve Lewis, who was also in my group, we did this waitress training program. We felt that the waitresses here didn't really know how to properly set the table in order to serve them, which I mean, so we just did this seminar on waitress training program. And then also maybe it was my third year, although it might have been after I was finished being a volunteer because I continued to teach, but anyway I started a Girl Scouts troop. There was a, for a few years, a Girl Scout program here. So I had a Girl Scout troop.

[Assistant] Had you been a Scout?

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] Had you been a camper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During the summer, we were supposed to be working. And so kind of on my own initiative and with Steve Lewis, who was also in my group, we did this waitress training program. We felt that the waitresses here didn't really know how to properly set the table in order to serve them, which I mean, so we just did this seminar on waitress training program. And then also maybe it was my third year, although it might have been after I was finished being a volunteer because I continued to teach, but anyway I started a Girl Scouts troop. There was a, for a few years, a Girl Scout program here. So I had a Girl Scout troop.

[Assistant] Had you been a Scout?

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] Had you been a camper?

[User] A little bit, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you ever been to a tropical island before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] Had you been a camper?

[User] A little bit, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you ever been to a tropical island before?

[User] No, never been out of Washington state. Until I went to Florida for training and then all the way out here.

[Assistant] Would you just reflect a little bit on your actual three years as a volunteer. What came out of it for you, for [inaudible], for Palau.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit, yeah.

[Assistant] Had you ever been to a tropical island before?

[User] No, never been out of Washington state. Until I went to Florida for training and then all the way out here.

[Assistant] Would you just reflect a little bit on your actual three years as a volunteer. What came out of it for you, for [inaudible], for Palau.

[User] I guess I felt that this was a place where I felt really comfortable. I liked the idea of being far away from my parents. And I just felt that this was a place where I could contribute something. Basically, yeah, this is a place where I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] It's really interesting how so many people felt exactly [inaudible].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, never been out of Washington state. Until I went to Florida for training and then all the way out here.

[Assistant] Would you just reflect a little bit on your actual three years as a volunteer. What came out of it for you, for [inaudible], for Palau.

[User] I guess I felt that this was a place where I felt really comfortable. I liked the idea of being far away from my parents. And I just felt that this was a place where I could contribute something. Basically, yeah, this is a place where I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] It's really interesting how so many people felt exactly [inaudible].

[User] I don’t know, I just yeah, I just had a very comfortable feeling about it. Because Juan, you know, when we met and then got serious and talked about marriage and he’d come back with the sociology degree and felt that's the reason he went to college is so that he could come back and help Palauans develop and that this is where he would want to be, stay. And so was I willing [inaudible] to stay here.

[Assistant] And you have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I felt that this was a place where I felt really comfortable. I liked the idea of being far away from my parents. And I just felt that this was a place where I could contribute something. Basically, yeah, this is a place where I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] It's really interesting how so many people felt exactly [inaudible].

[User] I don’t know, I just yeah, I just had a very comfortable feeling about it. Because Juan, you know, when we met and then got serious and talked about marriage and he’d come back with the sociology degree and felt that's the reason he went to college is so that he could come back and help Palauans develop and that this is where he would want to be, stay. And so was I willing [inaudible] to stay here.

[Assistant] And you have.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, not every volunteer would stay here. [inaudible] So when did you and Juan get married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know, I just yeah, I just had a very comfortable feeling about it. Because Juan, you know, when we met and then got serious and talked about marriage and he’d come back with the sociology degree and felt that's the reason he went to college is so that he could come back and help Palauans develop and that this is where he would want to be, stay. And so was I willing [inaudible] to stay here.

[Assistant] And you have.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, not every volunteer would stay here. [inaudible] So when did you and Juan get married?

[User] We got married on December 27, 1969, which was his birthday. And he decided that was more than that and anniversaries, remembering birthdays were something important to Americans where as Palauans really don’t celebrate that kind of event. And so, we got married on his birthday and that would help him remember. I kind of wanted to get married early in the year, but some of his younger sisters ended up getting married on August 15, which is a big celebration here in the Catholic Church. It’s a holy week for the church but it is also when Palauans celebrate the end of World War II when they got their freedom. So that was one sister-in-law. And then the other sister-in-law snuck in their wedding in October. So by that time, we had already settled on December.

[Assistant] So there were three weddings in the same year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, not every volunteer would stay here. [inaudible] So when did you and Juan get married?

[User] We got married on December 27, 1969, which was his birthday. And he decided that was more than that and anniversaries, remembering birthdays were something important to Americans where as Palauans really don’t celebrate that kind of event. And so, we got married on his birthday and that would help him remember. I kind of wanted to get married early in the year, but some of his younger sisters ended up getting married on August 15, which is a big celebration here in the Catholic Church. It’s a holy week for the church but it is also when Palauans celebrate the end of World War II when they got their freedom. So that was one sister-in-law. And then the other sister-in-law snuck in their wedding in October. So by that time, we had already settled on December.

[Assistant] So there were three weddings in the same year?

[User] Yes, three weddings in the one year.

[Assistant] So your wedding was here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got married on December 27, 1969, which was his birthday. And he decided that was more than that and anniversaries, remembering birthdays were something important to Americans where as Palauans really don’t celebrate that kind of event. And so, we got married on his birthday and that would help him remember. I kind of wanted to get married early in the year, but some of his younger sisters ended up getting married on August 15, which is a big celebration here in the Catholic Church. It’s a holy week for the church but it is also when Palauans celebrate the end of World War II when they got their freedom. So that was one sister-in-law. And then the other sister-in-law snuck in their wedding in October. So by that time, we had already settled on December.

[Assistant] So there were three weddings in the same year?

[User] Yes, three weddings in the one year.

[Assistant] So your wedding was here?

[User] It was here in Koror at the Catholic church. Not a real big wedding.

[Assistant] Did you become a Catholic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, three weddings in the one year.

[Assistant] So your wedding was here?

[User] It was here in Koror at the Catholic church. Not a real big wedding.

[Assistant] Did you become a Catholic?

[User] I was thinking about it. Although, Juan nor his family never pushed me. [inaudible] Well, Father McMannis had a heart attack in September of ‘69 and somehow that kind of, something clicked after that and I started thinking more about God and that I needed and wanted to have religion in my life and I said well maybe it was [inaudible] that I ended up being at the Catholic school. I was baptized on Christmas Eve in ‘69. And then we got married three days later. Father Moore was the one [inaudible]. Because Juan had lived there with his brother in Buffalo and taught Father Moore the Palauan language.

[Assistant] So did any of your family come to the wedding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was here in Koror at the Catholic church. Not a real big wedding.

[Assistant] Did you become a Catholic?

[User] I was thinking about it. Although, Juan nor his family never pushed me. [inaudible] Well, Father McMannis had a heart attack in September of ‘69 and somehow that kind of, something clicked after that and I started thinking more about God and that I needed and wanted to have religion in my life and I said well maybe it was [inaudible] that I ended up being at the Catholic school. I was baptized on Christmas Eve in ‘69. And then we got married three days later. Father Moore was the one [inaudible]. Because Juan had lived there with his brother in Buffalo and taught Father Moore the Palauan language.

[Assistant] So did any of your family come to the wedding?

[User] No. My parents hadn’t met Juan, but the whole idea of me staying here, they weren’t keen on it. They said they wouldn’t come, but it didn’t surprise me. They were supportive and then they sent money. [inaudible] they chose not to come, but years later, in ‘92, my father died and my brother and I were there cleaning out my dad’s stuff and my mother said you know I always wanted to come to the wedding but your father didn’t want to. [inaudible] But I had one of the [inaudible] come and she was my maid of honor. Then Juan asked his cousin to be the best man.

[Assistant] And then you just kind of carried on teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s part of our training for the crewmembers. We also do briefings for flight directors, and we’re also involved in Spaceflight Resource Management, SFRM, which is training that all the flight controllers go through. We have a finger in a lot of pies, but it’s not always a big finger, sometimes it’s small.

[Assistant] I was just curious, because no one ever sees tension. I have to assume there has to be some tension sometimes coming from flight crews, going back and forth.

[User] Absolutely. There’s a classic disconnect between remote teams, not just in space but military, pole, climbing teams, ballooning teams, boating teams, and their home base. It’s just a classic disconnect. They see different worlds, and they have different priorities. It’s built in. Ground will see the world one way, ground will have certain goals. Then the crew or the remote team sees things differently. Sometimes tension can develop between the two just because of the distance. We’ve found that flights that had audio-only comm between crews and ground had more difficulties than flights that had audio/video between crew and ground. It was the video aspect that allowed them to have more information and could read intent from the other person. “Is this person really a bad person?” Or, “Well, I kind of like that person.” It has a way of softening tension. That’s been good.

[Assistant] It’s been a constant lesson learning and a constant lesson application for you since actually you’ve been here.

[User] Yes, it’s been great. It’s wonderful to learn things.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the difficulty of when crewmembers come back and how your team helps them to adjust, especially maybe those crewmembers who know that that was their final flight, and how they tend to transition into ground-based assignments and/or to a new adventure that they’re moving on to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Possibly so, yes.

[Assistant] You’ve taught people how to work with each other. Are you teaching them how to deal with working with robots and what it’ll be like to have interaction with nonhuman behavior? Is that something that you guys are looking at as well?

[User] They are not yet there; we’re not there yet because operations has such a short term view of things. The research side of BHP, however, has a much longer term view. No, they’re not doing anything there, but what we want them to do and what we are talking to people about—there’s various researchers out there that are working on virtual reality. The virtual reality offers not a robot but offers artificial environments, environments different than the one you might be in. If we put on a VR headset right now we could be in any environment imagined, although we’re here.

[Assistant] Like a holodeck [fictional virtual reality facility].

[User] Like a holodeck, but cheap. We’re pushing to experiment that way, but not with robotics. I just think robotics will come on probably a little bit slower than VR does, but eventually they’ll have to do that.

[Assistant] Yes, because I can see astronauts viewing robots as competitors in the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They are not yet there; we’re not there yet because operations has such a short term view of things. The research side of BHP, however, has a much longer term view. No, they’re not doing anything there, but what we want them to do and what we are talking to people about—there’s various researchers out there that are working on virtual reality. The virtual reality offers not a robot but offers artificial environments, environments different than the one you might be in. If we put on a VR headset right now we could be in any environment imagined, although we’re here.

[Assistant] Like a holodeck [fictional virtual reality facility].

[User] Like a holodeck, but cheap. We’re pushing to experiment that way, but not with robotics. I just think robotics will come on probably a little bit slower than VR does, but eventually they’ll have to do that.

[Assistant] Yes, because I can see astronauts viewing robots as competitors in the future.

[User] Unless you are the one who is helping program that robot; unless that’s your robot and you have a choice.

[Assistant] Before we finish today, there are a couple of other questions I wanted to ask. It’s a long time for you to have to think back, but are there some times during your adventures with the ISS Program that you feel have been rewarding and that you believe your group has significantly contributed to the success of the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] To start with, we can start back with your STS-60 flight and when you first joined the program in 1990 as an astronaut. When did you hear about the Shuttle-Mir Program or the agreements to actually fly a cosmonaut on the Shuttle? Was that before you began training for the STS-60?

[User] I believe that we had heard about a Shuttle-Mir Program around the time of our assignment to STS-60, but we didn't hear that the assignment to a cosmonaut on STS-60 would happen until after the first five members of the crew were on board. So the announcement that there would be a Shuttle-Mir Program, I think, preceded the assignment of STS-60, but the actual inclusion of a cosmonaut, I believe, followed the announcement of the crew, the initial announcement.

[Assistant] Was it much long after that announcement?

[User] I don't believe so, but I would have to go back and see if that was the case.

[Assistant] When you were training for that flight then, after the cosmonaut was announced and you began training with them, was there any specialized training for this flight that would have been different than a mission without a cosmonaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe that we had heard about a Shuttle-Mir Program around the time of our assignment to STS-60, but we didn't hear that the assignment to a cosmonaut on STS-60 would happen until after the first five members of the crew were on board. So the announcement that there would be a Shuttle-Mir Program, I think, preceded the assignment of STS-60, but the actual inclusion of a cosmonaut, I believe, followed the announcement of the crew, the initial announcement.

[Assistant] Was it much long after that announcement?

[User] I don't believe so, but I would have to go back and see if that was the case.

[Assistant] When you were training for that flight then, after the cosmonaut was announced and you began training with them, was there any specialized training for this flight that would have been different than a mission without a cosmonaut?

[User] In two ways, there was a--well, probably more than that. There was a difference. One is getting to know the cosmonauts and their families, so we not only integrated the cosmonauts into the training, but also their families in a social context. Our crew took some Russian classes as part of our training. We worked with investigation teams that were joint, U.S. and Russian researchers, investigators, scientists, for the payloads that were on board STS-60. Again, a subset of experiments were joint U.S. and Russian experiments.

[Assistant] Do you remember what some of those experiments were, offhand?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. It was certainly after landing on STS-60. It would have been in late spring or early summer of the year. Well, let's see here. In fact, the request to take that assignment was made when I was supporting Dick Richards' flight that year as one of the family escorts down at the Cape. So that's actually the time, so we could go back and see when that flight was. But it was, I think, launch day of Dick Richards' flight at the Cape when I talked to, I believe, Dave Leestma or Bob Cabana, or both, about this request to take an assignment over in Russia as the DOR.

[Assistant] What did you think when you were first offered that opportunity?

[User] Well, it was a surprise, and that I was not as prepared as I would have wanted to be in the Russian language, in particular, for taking that flight. So I accepted the assignment and took the Russian classes at JSC [Johnson Space Center] and then over to the Defense Language Institute for roughly six weeks, September and part of October, I believe. Then off to Russia in early November.

[Assistant] A crash-course.

[User] Sure was. For me, learning the Russian language was quite difficult. By the time of the second space flight, the technical Russian was coming along, but the general conversational and social Russian was very difficult.

[Assistant] It is a challenging language, certainly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a surprise, and that I was not as prepared as I would have wanted to be in the Russian language, in particular, for taking that flight. So I accepted the assignment and took the Russian classes at JSC [Johnson Space Center] and then over to the Defense Language Institute for roughly six weeks, September and part of October, I believe. Then off to Russia in early November.

[Assistant] A crash-course.

[User] Sure was. For me, learning the Russian language was quite difficult. By the time of the second space flight, the technical Russian was coming along, but the general conversational and social Russian was very difficult.

[Assistant] It is a challenging language, certainly.

[User] Especially if the conversation is not done in context. You'd see a discussion in a particular environment of the Mir station or the simulator about some components or some activities, and that would be easier for me to understand and put it in context. Many of the words are quite similar to English. But without context, in a more general conversation with colloquial expressions, it was more difficult.

[Assistant] Obviously, you've picked up enough of it to do a pretty good job while you were over there and on the flights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure was. For me, learning the Russian language was quite difficult. By the time of the second space flight, the technical Russian was coming along, but the general conversational and social Russian was very difficult.

[Assistant] It is a challenging language, certainly.

[User] Especially if the conversation is not done in context. You'd see a discussion in a particular environment of the Mir station or the simulator about some components or some activities, and that would be easier for me to understand and put it in context. Many of the words are quite similar to English. But without context, in a more general conversation with colloquial expressions, it was more difficult.

[Assistant] Obviously, you've picked up enough of it to do a pretty good job while you were over there and on the flights.

[User] Fortunately, we had a lot of help. The Russians that were in our office were a great deal of help.

[Assistant] Can you go over the different individuals that you did have in your office and what some of their roles were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Especially if the conversation is not done in context. You'd see a discussion in a particular environment of the Mir station or the simulator about some components or some activities, and that would be easier for me to understand and put it in context. Many of the words are quite similar to English. But without context, in a more general conversation with colloquial expressions, it was more difficult.

[Assistant] Obviously, you've picked up enough of it to do a pretty good job while you were over there and on the flights.

[User] Fortunately, we had a lot of help. The Russians that were in our office were a great deal of help.

[Assistant] Can you go over the different individuals that you did have in your office and what some of their roles were?

[User] The number of Americans in Star City varied from probably six, at the lowest number, to thirty-five or so at the highest number, when science teams and medical teams would come in. So during the preparation for the flight, we would have periods when hardware would arrive, technicians would arrive, medical personnel and research physicians, research scientists would all converge on Star City. Typically, during an event where there's a lot of activity, we would have visitors. So the numbers would rise and fall throughout that five-month period. But it was a fairly intense period of time as we were engaged in activities that were new for us, and for the Russians, preparing a crew to fly out of Baikonur.

[Assistant] That must have been quite different from any kind of preparations that were done for a Shuttle flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fortunately, we had a lot of help. The Russians that were in our office were a great deal of help.

[Assistant] Can you go over the different individuals that you did have in your office and what some of their roles were?

[User] The number of Americans in Star City varied from probably six, at the lowest number, to thirty-five or so at the highest number, when science teams and medical teams would come in. So during the preparation for the flight, we would have periods when hardware would arrive, technicians would arrive, medical personnel and research physicians, research scientists would all converge on Star City. Typically, during an event where there's a lot of activity, we would have visitors. So the numbers would rise and fall throughout that five-month period. But it was a fairly intense period of time as we were engaged in activities that were new for us, and for the Russians, preparing a crew to fly out of Baikonur.

[Assistant] That must have been quite different from any kind of preparations that were done for a Shuttle flight.

[User] In many ways there are similarities of crew training, but in many ways that's different. The Russian training system certainly has differences from ours, and the equipment and other support structure for our side of the activity was also more difficult to put all of the parts in place because of the distance involved in obtaining spare parts and those types of things.

[Assistant] Looking at the mission and preparing for that, what were some of your other duties as DOR, besides helping the astronauts train for their mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, by those that had seen the transition, it certainly was. Those that had arrived for their tour probably would not have recognized the situation that was present just five months prior.

[Assistant] Talking about changes, even in the five months, I think you mentioned in the first interview that you also saw changes in Moscow itself. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[User] The changes were occurring at a rapid rate during that period of time, from storefronts improving in appearance, from more goods appearing in stores, even more cars appearing on the highway system. There was an influx of Western business in Moscow, and an improvement in the overall infrastructure of the city was occurring during the time that we were in Star City. Now, the changes in Moscow were more evident than those in Star City. It was on the outside of the outer loop so that you didn't see a great deal of change in that part of the country, as one would see in Moscow.

[Assistant] Taking a little bit about some or both of these changes, you mentioned how one of the things that you were involved with was getting transportation and vans for the NASA personnel. How did you first get around before you did have those arranged?

[User] There was an agreement to have Russian drivers in there, [unclear] primarily, that were part of the motor pool in Star City that would provide the transportation to and from Moscow. That was part of the original agreements for Phase One, but that arrangement was negotiated up to Norm's flight. So there needed to be some transition after that part of our program was completed, as well as accommodating the additional people that would be involved in the investigations on the life sciences material sciences side.

[Assistant] Looking some more at the transportation, we've heard a little bit that driving in Moscow could be an entertaining prospect. Do you have incidents that you can recall that were? Or just a general feeling of the driving situation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The changes were occurring at a rapid rate during that period of time, from storefronts improving in appearance, from more goods appearing in stores, even more cars appearing on the highway system. There was an influx of Western business in Moscow, and an improvement in the overall infrastructure of the city was occurring during the time that we were in Star City. Now, the changes in Moscow were more evident than those in Star City. It was on the outside of the outer loop so that you didn't see a great deal of change in that part of the country, as one would see in Moscow.

[Assistant] Taking a little bit about some or both of these changes, you mentioned how one of the things that you were involved with was getting transportation and vans for the NASA personnel. How did you first get around before you did have those arranged?

[User] There was an agreement to have Russian drivers in there, [unclear] primarily, that were part of the motor pool in Star City that would provide the transportation to and from Moscow. That was part of the original agreements for Phase One, but that arrangement was negotiated up to Norm's flight. So there needed to be some transition after that part of our program was completed, as well as accommodating the additional people that would be involved in the investigations on the life sciences material sciences side.

[Assistant] Looking some more at the transportation, we've heard a little bit that driving in Moscow could be an entertaining prospect. Do you have incidents that you can recall that were? Or just a general feeling of the driving situation?

[User] The drive to and from Moscow was generally an experience. The drivers were, by and large, quite good and would drive like many of the others on the road. So it was just a normal way of driving and still the best way of getting from one point to another for us.

[Assistant] Was there ever any discussion about getting driver's licenses for the American individuals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was an agreement to have Russian drivers in there, [unclear] primarily, that were part of the motor pool in Star City that would provide the transportation to and from Moscow. That was part of the original agreements for Phase One, but that arrangement was negotiated up to Norm's flight. So there needed to be some transition after that part of our program was completed, as well as accommodating the additional people that would be involved in the investigations on the life sciences material sciences side.

[Assistant] Looking some more at the transportation, we've heard a little bit that driving in Moscow could be an entertaining prospect. Do you have incidents that you can recall that were? Or just a general feeling of the driving situation?

[User] The drive to and from Moscow was generally an experience. The drivers were, by and large, quite good and would drive like many of the others on the road. So it was just a normal way of driving and still the best way of getting from one point to another for us.

[Assistant] Was there ever any discussion about getting driver's licenses for the American individuals?

[User] There was some discussion about the driver's licenses for the U.S. folks, but the issue of storing the vehicle and parking it in different parts of Moscow, outside of the embassy compound, for example, was always a question whether that was a good idea. And how difficult that would be to find a place, a simple place to park, whereas the driver situation, and hiring what turned out to be a very good addition to our team, I think, was a good solution. They knew how to get around Moscow when [unclear], which occasionally happened by the [unclear] kind of folks there, or the guard would be more adept at getting us to the next point, getting through that situation. We didn't have to worry about where the vehicles were going to be when we got done.

[Assistant] It would be kind of like trying to park a car in New York City.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The drive to and from Moscow was generally an experience. The drivers were, by and large, quite good and would drive like many of the others on the road. So it was just a normal way of driving and still the best way of getting from one point to another for us.

[Assistant] Was there ever any discussion about getting driver's licenses for the American individuals?

[User] There was some discussion about the driver's licenses for the U.S. folks, but the issue of storing the vehicle and parking it in different parts of Moscow, outside of the embassy compound, for example, was always a question whether that was a good idea. And how difficult that would be to find a place, a simple place to park, whereas the driver situation, and hiring what turned out to be a very good addition to our team, I think, was a good solution. They knew how to get around Moscow when [unclear], which occasionally happened by the [unclear] kind of folks there, or the guard would be more adept at getting us to the next point, getting through that situation. We didn't have to worry about where the vehicles were going to be when we got done.

[Assistant] It would be kind of like trying to park a car in New York City.

[User] Something like that, yes. There's also an issue of some cases of European vehicles being stolen in that time.

[Assistant] That would be quite inconvenient. [Laughter] Come out and don't have a car anymore. That sounds like it worked out pretty well in the long run.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was some discussion about the driver's licenses for the U.S. folks, but the issue of storing the vehicle and parking it in different parts of Moscow, outside of the embassy compound, for example, was always a question whether that was a good idea. And how difficult that would be to find a place, a simple place to park, whereas the driver situation, and hiring what turned out to be a very good addition to our team, I think, was a good solution. They knew how to get around Moscow when [unclear], which occasionally happened by the [unclear] kind of folks there, or the guard would be more adept at getting us to the next point, getting through that situation. We didn't have to worry about where the vehicles were going to be when we got done.

[Assistant] It would be kind of like trying to park a car in New York City.

[User] Something like that, yes. There's also an issue of some cases of European vehicles being stolen in that time.

[Assistant] That would be quite inconvenient. [Laughter] Come out and don't have a car anymore. That sounds like it worked out pretty well in the long run.

[User] Yes, I think so. The drivers, when they weren't actually engaged in driving, would come up to the office and try to help out, as well. It was a good rapport with everybody in the office.

[Assistant] Always helps to have that. Talking a little bit about rapport, can you go into some of the relationships between the American side and the Russian side, some of the cultural differences? Were there any holdover emotions from the Cold War, anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something like that, yes. There's also an issue of some cases of European vehicles being stolen in that time.

[Assistant] That would be quite inconvenient. [Laughter] Come out and don't have a car anymore. That sounds like it worked out pretty well in the long run.

[User] Yes, I think so. The drivers, when they weren't actually engaged in driving, would come up to the office and try to help out, as well. It was a good rapport with everybody in the office.

[Assistant] Always helps to have that. Talking a little bit about rapport, can you go into some of the relationships between the American side and the Russian side, some of the cultural differences? Were there any holdover emotions from the Cold War, anything like that?

[User] I think you could find the entire spectrum among fairly significant numbers of people there in Star City, from those that very enthusiastically embraced the new program between the two countries, to those that were quite reluctant to embrace this new program. Most fell somewhere in between. As each side started to understand the other more, the situation continued to improve. I think we ended up sharing a lot of common interests and experiences. Some things in space point to a way of doing things that both countries kind of evolve to separately. You would find it quite normal, natural, how to take care of a certain technical situation when it concerned space flight. The cultural differences in the more social environment probably were a little broader than they were in the technical aspects of space flight.

[Assistant] Some of those cultural differences, as you did get to know each other better and as everyone was working together, were there opportunities for social events that would kind of help smooth those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure. I would suspect the answer would be yes, but I'm not sure. We thought it was a good idea. We even had pictures of the prime and back-up crew members for the Soyuz launch and they were symbolically put on the Mir station and the Shuttle. It was kind of a cartoon. I think it was a chimney actually installed on the Mir station and the Shuttle was sort of the sleigh, being pulled by reindeer en route to the Mir station with just the pictures of a head view of the three for the back-up on the Shuttle coming up toward the Mir station, the other three then on board the Mir station as it would be for STS-71.

[Assistant] That's great. I'm sure that was well appreciated. Talking a little bit about the cultural and the relationships and such, I've noticed in the Star City updates that you passed on to us that some cross-cultural training was begun while you were over there. What did that entail and how different was that from what had been done before?

[User] The cross-cultural training, as I recall, was not very extensive, first of all, led by a U.S. group. A contact point, I believe, would be Al Holland.

[Assistant] Sure, we can talk to him.

[User] On the reasonably structured syllabus of what they wanted to cover and some discussion on cultural differences. For us it was relatively late in our stay and it probably reflected more of a confirmation of many of the items that they presented. There were some new issues as well, but probably a good course for people that were newly arriving, but in our case, a little downstream from our perspective.

[Assistant] You'd learned it all on the job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cross-cultural training, as I recall, was not very extensive, first of all, led by a U.S. group. A contact point, I believe, would be Al Holland.

[Assistant] Sure, we can talk to him.

[User] On the reasonably structured syllabus of what they wanted to cover and some discussion on cultural differences. For us it was relatively late in our stay and it probably reflected more of a confirmation of many of the items that they presented. There were some new issues as well, but probably a good course for people that were newly arriving, but in our case, a little downstream from our perspective.

[Assistant] You'd learned it all on the job.

[User] Quite a bit of it, yes.

[Assistant] There was a section in that mentioned that was about women in the workplace. A little bit from what we've heard from some of the others that we've talked with, the Russians were a little bit surprised about the American women. Do you have any perspective on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The two principal systems were through the Russian phone system that allowed you to connect to an AT&T operator, sometimes by way of the Russian system into, say, the U.S. Embassy. Another means of communication was through the NMARSAT [phonetic] system via two portable systems that we had. One was in the office area and one was in an apartment area. So we became reasonably good at understanding the signal strength problems of the system and ways that we would try to restore the communication signals and the channel. One would point to a satellite over the Indian Ocean, the other one over the Atlantic. So we had some idea what the look angles were for those two ways of reaching a satellite and eventually sending either voice and/or data back to the U.S.

[Assistant] I'm sure that probably contributed to some of those long days, occasionally.

[User] It sure did. Some E-mails would take hours to get through.

[Assistant] Wow. Technology, I guess, eventually prevailed.

[User] Yes, it had more stability in the communications link and so a more normal E-mail traffic would allow that means to go back and forth. We would participate in the conference calls in Houston. Some were at the very beginning of the Houston day, which accommodated our schedule better than one that would be in the latter part of the Houston day, which would be midnight or so in Moscow.

[Assistant] This is moving on to a slightly different tack. I noticed, again while reading the Star City updates, that you mentioned occasionally the Chetznya [phonetic] situation that was while you were over there. How much did that impact what you all were doing over in Star City? How much of a concern was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, the approach and docking. I would continue to practice my Russian, as the speaker for making the rendezvous approach and docking calls in [unclear], the pressure checks and the hatch opening and those types of things.

[Assistant] When you finally got up there to Mir, was it what you had expected from all this training and from all your time spent with working with the Russians?

[User] After hearing of the experiences of the two previous crews that had been on Mir and looking at the photographs of the Mir station, we had a pretty good idea of what the Mir would be like. Some of the tools were placed in more tenuous situations along the sides of the passageways, so you were cautioned, correctly, by the cosmonauts to be careful as we brought equipment through these passageways, not to dislodge pliers and screwdrivers and those kinds of things that were tacked along the sides. We developed a pretty efficient system. We were well ahead of our time line in terms of transfers on our mission.

[Assistant] The docking went pretty smoothly, obviously. Then there was a little bit of ceremony with the handshakes and so forth.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about that, how it was? Had you trained with the cosmonauts on the ground before or met them while you were DOR? Was this the first time for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After hearing of the experiences of the two previous crews that had been on Mir and looking at the photographs of the Mir station, we had a pretty good idea of what the Mir would be like. Some of the tools were placed in more tenuous situations along the sides of the passageways, so you were cautioned, correctly, by the cosmonauts to be careful as we brought equipment through these passageways, not to dislodge pliers and screwdrivers and those kinds of things that were tacked along the sides. We developed a pretty efficient system. We were well ahead of our time line in terms of transfers on our mission.

[Assistant] The docking went pretty smoothly, obviously. Then there was a little bit of ceremony with the handshakes and so forth.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about that, how it was? Had you trained with the cosmonauts on the ground before or met them while you were DOR? Was this the first time for you?

[User] I had met them when I was there as the director of operations, as well as the training trip that we had in Russia. They had made, I believe, two or three trips to the U.S. during the course of their training flow to work out some of the science that would be transported into the Mir station. Maybe just twice. I'm not sure of that. So we'd make a special effort to get together when they were in the U.S., as well. So we were comfortable working with Yuri Frinkel [phonetic] and Yuri Yusochev [phonetic] during the five days that we were docked. A kind of mutual excitement about getting together was clear.

[Assistant] Of course, I'm sure, it was exciting for Shannon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about that, how it was? Had you trained with the cosmonauts on the ground before or met them while you were DOR? Was this the first time for you?

[User] I had met them when I was there as the director of operations, as well as the training trip that we had in Russia. They had made, I believe, two or three trips to the U.S. during the course of their training flow to work out some of the science that would be transported into the Mir station. Maybe just twice. I'm not sure of that. So we'd make a special effort to get together when they were in the U.S., as well. So we were comfortable working with Yuri Frinkel [phonetic] and Yuri Yusochev [phonetic] during the five days that we were docked. A kind of mutual excitement about getting together was clear.

[Assistant] Of course, I'm sure, it was exciting for Shannon.

[User] Absolutely. And she was ready to get on with the work that she had trained to do.

[Assistant] Looking back on the flights and your time as a DOR, what would you say were the biggest challenges for each one along the way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The space program needs are varied. In our college we span hardware and software kinds of disciplines. So I will talk to the students, encourage them to continue their studies and do as well as they possibly can, whatever they choose, but there are a variety roles that they can fill in being involved in the space program. There are some that involve flying in space. Many involve support of those operations in space. Many more involve the design, test, and building of equipment that will be involved in the program, as well as some of the scientific underpinnings, ground-based, as well as space-based work, for the program.\n\n So I lay out a variety of options and listen to what they would like to do and try to assist them in choosing an educational background that would meet some of their goals, try to help a open a few more doors for them in the future, and not close many by narrowing in on something that's very specialized.

[Assistant] Have you seen a lot of potential in the upcoming students?

[User] Absolutely. We have very good students, whether it be the undergraduate folks that are roughly half of those that are working in a community and half that are more traditional, coming from high school population, and our graduate student population, which at this campus is principally working professionals coming to the campus for evening courses, very bright students. I'm confident that we're going to do well in the future.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven't covered that you would like to talk about?

[User] Not that I can think of today, however, more than open to either answering any questions that you may think of, or after reviewing what we have talked about, perhaps giving you a call.

[Assistant] Sure. Thank you so much. I think it's been quite interesting. I really appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I didn't see any reason—you see, there were Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] people flying unmanned vehicles. There were my people flying manned vehicles, and ABMA was a Huntsville organization developing boosters and flying boosters. It had nothing to do with the other two programs, and so it made sense that they put it all together under NASA, that they would.\n\n But one of the things that happened almost immediately, though, when [Kurt H.] Debus became part of NASA was that poor Mel Gough, who had been a member of NACA way back to 1927, was relieved of his job. He was titular head of NASA there, and he just sort of disappeared. He went on to work for the Bureau of Aeronautics to begin with after leaving NACA/NASA for, say, thirty years. But anyway, so it goes.\n\n I keep getting off track. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's all right. Actually, before we go much further, I'd like to jump back a little bit and—

[User] Oh, yes, well, let me figure out where I am first.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yes. Okay. Okay.

[Assistant] You mentioned the formation of NASA and the groups at Langley and at Lewis. What did you think of the process of forming NASA and the manned spaceflight program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, well, let me figure out where I am first.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yes. Okay. Okay.

[Assistant] You mentioned the formation of NASA and the groups at Langley and at Lewis. What did you think of the process of forming NASA and the manned spaceflight program?

[User] I'm sure you're aware of Walt [Walter C.] Williams, who was the mission director for all the flights of Mercury and the first flight of Gemini. In the middle of Mercury, he came down to me and he said, "Preston, you've got to quit worrying about spending money." He said, "You spend it and it's successful, there's no problem. If you don't spend it and you're unsuccessful, boy, you're going to catch hell."\n\n It was a whole different attitude. I mean, NACA was a very frugal organization, a very well-run organization, and an ideal place to work. I had a habit of pinching pennies. That was the nature of that organization. It took me a while to get used to that new attitude, particularly when you had to—our budget the year before NASA was about 10 million dollars. We had, I don't know—well, I'd better not say. I think it was around 7,000 employees. They were all civil service, no contractors, or very little. It was sort of an ideal organization. I'd say it probably was the best organizations the government ever had, but I might be prejudiced.

[Assistant] Well, we've heard that a few times. We've heard that from others, that it was a good organization.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, it's almost like the crash program we had. This was a case where we let go of the airplane at the end of a runway and let it run down and crash, and we forever were finding else new that we didn't expect. When it finally got all through and he said, "Well, that's what we were trying to find out." And it's true, you learn by failure almost as much as you do success.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] But you have to go through some rather strange emotions, though.

[Assistant] You were trying to basically create from scratch all of these procedures.

[User] Yes, well, we would have never have made it if it hadn't been for his help. He didn't exactly write everything, but he sure led us by the nose. He lives here, by the way, and he's a very good friend of mine.

[Assistant] Well, we might have to look at maybe having him participant in the project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But you have to go through some rather strange emotions, though.

[Assistant] You were trying to basically create from scratch all of these procedures.

[User] Yes, well, we would have never have made it if it hadn't been for his help. He didn't exactly write everything, but he sure led us by the nose. He lives here, by the way, and he's a very good friend of mine.

[Assistant] Well, we might have to look at maybe having him participant in the project.

[User] It would be a good idea, because he was the—I don't know his exact position in headquarters, but he was pretty high up, I think, and worked for the administrator himself.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm familiar with his name. We've come across it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, well, we would have never have made it if it hadn't been for his help. He didn't exactly write everything, but he sure led us by the nose. He lives here, by the way, and he's a very good friend of mine.

[Assistant] Well, we might have to look at maybe having him participant in the project.

[User] It would be a good idea, because he was the—I don't know his exact position in headquarters, but he was pretty high up, I think, and worked for the administrator himself.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm familiar with his name. We've come across it.

[User] Phil Culbertson. He retired four or five years ago, but he had been with NASA probably since the end of Mercury or somewhere along in there, a long time.

[Assistant] And certainly involved with it beforehand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would be a good idea, because he was the—I don't know his exact position in headquarters, but he was pretty high up, I think, and worked for the administrator himself.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm familiar with his name. We've come across it.

[User] Phil Culbertson. He retired four or five years ago, but he had been with NASA probably since the end of Mercury or somewhere along in there, a long time.

[Assistant] And certainly involved with it beforehand.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Working with Phil Culbertson and the Air Force and the NASA people, as you were starting out, you were based in Hangar S at the Cape, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Phil Culbertson. He retired four or five years ago, but he had been with NASA probably since the end of Mercury or somewhere along in there, a long time.

[Assistant] And certainly involved with it beforehand.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Working with Phil Culbertson and the Air Force and the NASA people, as you were starting out, you were based in Hangar S at the Cape, is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you start building these procedures and figuring out the safety as you went along?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Working with Phil Culbertson and the Air Force and the NASA people, as you were starting out, you were based in Hangar S at the Cape, is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you start building these procedures and figuring out the safety as you went along?

[User] Well, we finally learned what was expected and, of course, it turns out you just put down on paper what you know you have to do. I mean, in detailed steps. Before when we were flying up at Lewis, we'd just go out and do it, and that's not acceptable when you've got all this kind of business. But it was just a matter of writing down what's going to go on in detail. I mean extreme detail. Sometimes it gets a little annoying, it's so detailed, but that's the way it really has to be, so that everybody knows what's going on. That's the way they still do it. It wasn't hard— [Telephone interruption.]

[Assistant] You were talking about the details.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's my career, but there are some personal experiences that I might want to talk about.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I got to look and see where I duplicated.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, a couple questions that—go ahead.

[User] I was really going back to, I already told you about the first Atlas shot that Williams and I watched and it failed. The first Redstone was the one where the Redstone lifted off about six inches and then fell back on the pad. Everything in the spacecraft worked perfectly, all the recovery gear came out like it's supposed to. Yardley was standing, both he and I were standing right at the door of the control center, and he immediately knew what was going on. I mean, it was kind of confusing, seeing all this stuff coming out, but he recognized that it was proper procedure.\n\n Well, I don't know, maybe you've heard that story before, but as a result of that, we had to put in a booster development flight for the Redstone, which went in right before [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.], and we missed beating the Russians by a month and that was that month. However, they were going orbital and we were just lobbing it. There's a big difference.\n\n But what happened to the booster, in case you don't know, is that the cord attached to the vehicle dropped out early, which made the booster think that—wait a minute, I've got that backwards. It didn't drop out. When it did pull it out, it thought the flight was over, so it shut down. It's only been thirty-some years, I'm a little confused. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's all right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the fault from the booster lifting off, and it shut down when it was six inches off the pad. An aside from that…our spacecraft [was] fueled with these hyperbolic fuels and not exactly the safest thing in the world. Walter [F.] Burke, who was the, I think he was chief engineer of McDonnell, decided he wasn't going to let his people safe the thing, so he, himself, went up there and safed it. He just wouldn't allow his own people to get involved.

[Assistant] I guess that's an example of good leadership, if you're not willing to do it yourself then—

[User] Well, that's for sure. He came down quite frequently, and it was obvious that he was more in favor of the Mercury spacecraft than he was anything else going on at McDonnell, because he was spending more time on it.\n\n I think I told you about going through Huntsville.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Well, there's not much to say about Shepard's flight, except that the day of the launch I was in the block house as usual, and I went over to see how Shepard was doing with the medical people. One of them looked up at me, he just grabbed my arm, took my pulse, and I was worse off than Shepard was.

[Assistant] Well, I think that's understandable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's for sure. He came down quite frequently, and it was obvious that he was more in favor of the Mercury spacecraft than he was anything else going on at McDonnell, because he was spending more time on it.\n\n I think I told you about going through Huntsville.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Well, there's not much to say about Shepard's flight, except that the day of the launch I was in the block house as usual, and I went over to see how Shepard was doing with the medical people. One of them looked up at me, he just grabbed my arm, took my pulse, and I was worse off than Shepard was.

[Assistant] Well, I think that's understandable.

[User] Yes. Well, truthfully, though, that is about the last time I ever did get too excited when it happened, because it just didn't do anything for you.

[Assistant] Well, after that you had done it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's not much to say about Shepard's flight, except that the day of the launch I was in the block house as usual, and I went over to see how Shepard was doing with the medical people. One of them looked up at me, he just grabbed my arm, took my pulse, and I was worse off than Shepard was.

[Assistant] Well, I think that's understandable.

[User] Yes. Well, truthfully, though, that is about the last time I ever did get too excited when it happened, because it just didn't do anything for you.

[Assistant] Well, after that you had done it.

[User] Yes, I was extremely nervous on that flight. But in the case of [Virgil I. Gus] Grissom, you've heard enough about the flap about the hatch, so I don't need to bring that up. I do side with his wife in that this whole business of recovering the spacecraft is a little bit unnecessary. Quite frankly, I think before it's over they're going to blame Grissom for the whole affair, and I don't know how in the hell they can, but they will. I know we tried to figure out who it was, and finally said, "What's the point anyway?" They redesigned that hatch anyway. It doesn't make any difference. But I think that's the newspapers or what they're after.\n\n But Grissom didn't make himself any easier on himself because he had his flight suit full of pennies, which weighted him down, and he just came within an inch of drowning.\n\n As a rather coincidence, my priest over here at the local Episcopal church…the last one, not this one, was in the flight crew of the helicopter that picked him up. I found that out years later.

[Assistant] That's an interesting coincidence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, once we started flying, the astronaut himself participated. Before that, a mechanic would be in the spacecraft flipping switches, but once it started flying, the astronaut himself would be in there being the simulated pilot. So that was a big difference. As I recall, we didn't get in this position of having that oxygen-filled spacecraft when the man was in there. However, I think that's probably wrong, because we must have done it once or twice, but we didn't get that same experience. I think the difference was that we were extremely cautious about people being in that spacecraft and doing damage to it.\n\n Joe Bobik was my chief inspector and he came from Lewis, a very competent inspector, very precise and very persnickety. Yardley used to complain all the time to me the fact that he was holding them up. I invariably would back him up, because you can't break those people's spirit or they weren't worth a damn.

[Assistant] Very true.

[User] Anyway, it worked. We did have our moments of fear, but not as bad. I think I was the only one in that position that didn't end up with a fatality. Oh, wait a minute, though, whatchacall it. After Petrone. What's his name? [Walter J. Kapryan.] Came from Langley. That's terrible.

[Assistant] He took over from Petrone?

[User] He was the launch director after Petrone. He was his deputy and then he was the—oh, my.

[Assistant] Oh, I can't think of it either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, it worked. We did have our moments of fear, but not as bad. I think I was the only one in that position that didn't end up with a fatality. Oh, wait a minute, though, whatchacall it. After Petrone. What's his name? [Walter J. Kapryan.] Came from Langley. That's terrible.

[Assistant] He took over from Petrone?

[User] He was the launch director after Petrone. He was his deputy and then he was the—oh, my.

[Assistant] Oh, I can't think of it either.

[User] He was in the tank at Langley. Well, that's beside the point, I guess.

[Assistant] We'll check the books and make sure we get his name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was the launch director after Petrone. He was his deputy and then he was the—oh, my.

[Assistant] Oh, I can't think of it either.

[User] He was in the tank at Langley. Well, that's beside the point, I guess.

[Assistant] We'll check the books and make sure we get his name.

[User] Well, that won't help much, but anyway, I don't think he had a fatality. But a couple of times I came awful close. Like for instance, Armstrong's [Gemini VIII] flight, boy, they came so damn close it was terrible. He landed in the ocean. The odds weren't too red hot of picking them out there in the middle of nowhere.\n\n But let's get back to—Carpenter's flight was the one after Glenn's, and he got so enamored with the scenery and the sparklers that he overshot by a couple hundred miles, and, of course, this is old news, probably an old story for you. But Walt Williams asked that we evaluate the astronauts from then on, you know, stability, because Carpenter, he should have paid more attention to what he was doing, but he didn't.\n\n [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was the next flight, and he came storming in the office, said, "You're going to tell me when I can fly?" He just blew his stack. Well, I finally told him that our crew thought he was the best manipulator of the control arm of the whole bunch, and that settled him down. [Laughter]\n\n Everything in Mercury went along fine, considering. At the end of Mercury, we all went off to Washington and New York, quite an experience having a cocktail party at Disney's, and meeting the—who the cartoonist that just retired?

[Assistant] Charles [M.] Schultz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in the tank at Langley. Well, that's beside the point, I guess.

[Assistant] We'll check the books and make sure we get his name.

[User] Well, that won't help much, but anyway, I don't think he had a fatality. But a couple of times I came awful close. Like for instance, Armstrong's [Gemini VIII] flight, boy, they came so damn close it was terrible. He landed in the ocean. The odds weren't too red hot of picking them out there in the middle of nowhere.\n\n But let's get back to—Carpenter's flight was the one after Glenn's, and he got so enamored with the scenery and the sparklers that he overshot by a couple hundred miles, and, of course, this is old news, probably an old story for you. But Walt Williams asked that we evaluate the astronauts from then on, you know, stability, because Carpenter, he should have paid more attention to what he was doing, but he didn't.\n\n [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was the next flight, and he came storming in the office, said, "You're going to tell me when I can fly?" He just blew his stack. Well, I finally told him that our crew thought he was the best manipulator of the control arm of the whole bunch, and that settled him down. [Laughter]\n\n Everything in Mercury went along fine, considering. At the end of Mercury, we all went off to Washington and New York, quite an experience having a cocktail party at Disney's, and meeting the—who the cartoonist that just retired?

[Assistant] Charles [M.] Schultz?

[User] Yes, Schultz was at that party.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that won't help much, but anyway, I don't think he had a fatality. But a couple of times I came awful close. Like for instance, Armstrong's [Gemini VIII] flight, boy, they came so damn close it was terrible. He landed in the ocean. The odds weren't too red hot of picking them out there in the middle of nowhere.\n\n But let's get back to—Carpenter's flight was the one after Glenn's, and he got so enamored with the scenery and the sparklers that he overshot by a couple hundred miles, and, of course, this is old news, probably an old story for you. But Walt Williams asked that we evaluate the astronauts from then on, you know, stability, because Carpenter, he should have paid more attention to what he was doing, but he didn't.\n\n [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] was the next flight, and he came storming in the office, said, "You're going to tell me when I can fly?" He just blew his stack. Well, I finally told him that our crew thought he was the best manipulator of the control arm of the whole bunch, and that settled him down. [Laughter]\n\n Everything in Mercury went along fine, considering. At the end of Mercury, we all went off to Washington and New York, quite an experience having a cocktail party at Disney's, and meeting the—who the cartoonist that just retired?

[Assistant] Charles [M.] Schultz?

[User] Yes, Schultz was at that party.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.

[User] Anyway, that was quite an occasion, but had nothing to do with the space program.

[Assistant] No, but an interesting opportunity that came because you were involved in the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Schultz was at that party.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting.

[User] Anyway, that was quite an occasion, but had nothing to do with the space program.

[Assistant] No, but an interesting opportunity that came because you were involved in the program.

[User] Yes. One of the advantages of this job is we were continually meeting people from hierarchy, I mean, presidents and kings and things like that, and having state dinners with them. That was just a sideline of our job. But they'd come parading through here. The Shah of Iran [Mohammad Reza Pahlevi] was here several times, and I guess people don't think too much of him, but he's a pretty impressive guy.

[Assistant] An aspect of the job you never expected, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, that was quite an occasion, but had nothing to do with the space program.

[Assistant] No, but an interesting opportunity that came because you were involved in the program.

[User] Yes. One of the advantages of this job is we were continually meeting people from hierarchy, I mean, presidents and kings and things like that, and having state dinners with them. That was just a sideline of our job. But they'd come parading through here. The Shah of Iran [Mohammad Reza Pahlevi] was here several times, and I guess people don't think too much of him, but he's a pretty impressive guy.

[Assistant] An aspect of the job you never expected, I'm sure.

[User] Well, it was interesting.

[Assistant] Talking about Mercury still, were you involved at all with discussions or the setup of the network, the communications network?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One of the advantages of this job is we were continually meeting people from hierarchy, I mean, presidents and kings and things like that, and having state dinners with them. That was just a sideline of our job. But they'd come parading through here. The Shah of Iran [Mohammad Reza Pahlevi] was here several times, and I guess people don't think too much of him, but he's a pretty impressive guy.

[Assistant] An aspect of the job you never expected, I'm sure.

[User] Well, it was interesting.

[Assistant] Talking about Mercury still, were you involved at all with discussions or the setup of the network, the communications network?

[User] Not too much. Of course, the original control center was here in the beginning of Mercury, before they went to Houston, and that was the center of that network. Then later on, the network station here at MILA, is what it's called, Merritt Island Launch Area, was one of the prime ones of the whole network. But I never had too much to do with it. Never actually worked on the [unclear] or anything like that. That was essentially done by Goddard and a man back at Houston, Barry. Barry [Graves]. I got that far.

[Assistant] Well, that will give us a lead. We can find him in the paperwork, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was interesting.

[Assistant] Talking about Mercury still, were you involved at all with discussions or the setup of the network, the communications network?

[User] Not too much. Of course, the original control center was here in the beginning of Mercury, before they went to Houston, and that was the center of that network. Then later on, the network station here at MILA, is what it's called, Merritt Island Launch Area, was one of the prime ones of the whole network. But I never had too much to do with it. Never actually worked on the [unclear] or anything like that. That was essentially done by Goddard and a man back at Houston, Barry. Barry [Graves]. I got that far.

[Assistant] Well, that will give us a lead. We can find him in the paperwork, I'm sure.

[User] I had enough to do without messing with that.

[Assistant] You certainly did. You mentioned the MR-1 flight that had had the problems and then having talked about the individual missions, and, of course, with the manned missions the abort system became a high priority. Were you involved in any of the work on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not too much. Of course, the original control center was here in the beginning of Mercury, before they went to Houston, and that was the center of that network. Then later on, the network station here at MILA, is what it's called, Merritt Island Launch Area, was one of the prime ones of the whole network. But I never had too much to do with it. Never actually worked on the [unclear] or anything like that. That was essentially done by Goddard and a man back at Houston, Barry. Barry [Graves]. I got that far.

[Assistant] Well, that will give us a lead. We can find him in the paperwork, I'm sure.

[User] I had enough to do without messing with that.

[Assistant] You certainly did. You mentioned the MR-1 flight that had had the problems and then having talked about the individual missions, and, of course, with the manned missions the abort system became a high priority. Were you involved in any of the work on that?

[User] Do you mean at Wallops? No, I wasn't involved in any of the tests at Wallops or White Sands [Test Facility, New Mexico], except I went out there once, I can't remember why, but it was some test that they—John [R.] Bailey, who was here as a NASA safety guy, sort of independent safety guy, who was a brilliant engineer, too, from Langley Flight Research. I went out there to review what they were doing, I guess, but I don't remember what it was.

[Assistant] That's all right. You certainly had a lot of things you were involved with. I wouldn't expect you to remember everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had enough to do without messing with that.

[Assistant] You certainly did. You mentioned the MR-1 flight that had had the problems and then having talked about the individual missions, and, of course, with the manned missions the abort system became a high priority. Were you involved in any of the work on that?

[User] Do you mean at Wallops? No, I wasn't involved in any of the tests at Wallops or White Sands [Test Facility, New Mexico], except I went out there once, I can't remember why, but it was some test that they—John [R.] Bailey, who was here as a NASA safety guy, sort of independent safety guy, who was a brilliant engineer, too, from Langley Flight Research. I went out there to review what they were doing, I guess, but I don't remember what it was.

[Assistant] That's all right. You certainly had a lot of things you were involved with. I wouldn't expect you to remember everything.

[User] Yes, but most of it was between here and the factory. Graves. [G.] Barry Graves was the network guy.

[Assistant] I'm familiar with his name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you mean at Wallops? No, I wasn't involved in any of the tests at Wallops or White Sands [Test Facility, New Mexico], except I went out there once, I can't remember why, but it was some test that they—John [R.] Bailey, who was here as a NASA safety guy, sort of independent safety guy, who was a brilliant engineer, too, from Langley Flight Research. I went out there to review what they were doing, I guess, but I don't remember what it was.

[Assistant] That's all right. You certainly had a lot of things you were involved with. I wouldn't expect you to remember everything.

[User] Yes, but most of it was between here and the factory. Graves. [G.] Barry Graves was the network guy.

[Assistant] I'm familiar with his name.

[User] Some I remember, some I don't.

[Assistant] There was a lot of people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but most of it was between here and the factory. Graves. [G.] Barry Graves was the network guy.

[Assistant] I'm familiar with his name.

[User] Some I remember, some I don't.

[Assistant] There was a lot of people.

[User] Well, there was an awful lot of people that I got involved with between the beginning and end of my career.\n\n Now, right after—I think it's the first flight of Gemini, manned flight, Walt Williams retired, and Chris Kraft and I sort of split the jobs. I'd taken over what might be called—well, I was titled the launch mission director, and Kraft was still called the flight director. Kraft was nominally the head of the missions, but he delegated all this business down here to me, so that that was a change.\n\n One of the things that happened, I think it was on [L.] Gordon Cooper's flight in Gemini when it started raining and Gordon informed me through the net that raindrops were on the windshield. About that time Debus called me up and says, "Why don't you…scrub?" I had Ernie Ames [phonetic], the weatherman, sitting right there beside me, and I sent him out to see and he says, "It's still out there." So we didn't scrub. Then about four or five minutes later, the lightning struck pad 34 and that was the end of that, because the lightning would strike, but the transit that it caused in the power system shut down all the computers, so we didn't have any choice.

[Assistant] That's a good reason.