[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think it’s more like the other way around. Here first and then [there].

Yes because we do the maintaining. But it was operated by the ops people [at Dryden]. Over here we do the maintenance [and] operate the system too.

[Assistant] So you knew the system inside and out because you had used it. Tell me about the weather and the corrosion.

[User]
He can tell you a lot. He worked a lot of it.

I’ll tell you what. In California you have the desert and no salt. The MDD out there is pristine. The one out here, it is a constant battle with rust and corrosion. Not only does it affect the structure and the steels, but it affects the electronics, the breakers, the electrical system, even our wiring gets corroded. It gets brittle. Constant battle. Just very difficult. That’s one of our most difficult facilities to maintain, because it’s a frame structure out in the weather. We have hurricanes and things like that.

Water, rain.

Water constantly gets penetrated. We have birds, thousands of birds.

Alligators.

Buzzards.

[Assistant] They think it’s a roost?

[User]
Snakes, spider.

That sit on that. They go on it pretty much. Their droppings are corrosive. It’s just a very difficult facility. Be honest with you, as much attachment as I have with it, the last one goes off--.

[Assistant] It’ll be good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
He can tell you a lot. He worked a lot of it.

I’ll tell you what. In California you have the desert and no salt. The MDD out there is pristine. The one out here, it is a constant battle with rust and corrosion. Not only does it affect the structure and the steels, but it affects the electronics, the breakers, the electrical system, even our wiring gets corroded. It gets brittle. Constant battle. Just very difficult. That’s one of our most difficult facilities to maintain, because it’s a frame structure out in the weather. We have hurricanes and things like that.

Water, rain.

Water constantly gets penetrated. We have birds, thousands of birds.

Alligators.

Buzzards.

[Assistant] They think it’s a roost?

[User]
Snakes, spider.

That sit on that. They go on it pretty much. Their droppings are corrosive. It’s just a very difficult facility. Be honest with you, as much attachment as I have with it, the last one goes off--.

[Assistant] It’ll be good.

[User] I’ll be happy.

[Assistant] Do you have a regular maintenance schedule?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Snakes, spider.

That sit on that. They go on it pretty much. Their droppings are corrosive. It’s just a very difficult facility. Be honest with you, as much attachment as I have with it, the last one goes off--.

[Assistant] It’ll be good.

[User] I’ll be happy.

[Assistant] Do you have a regular maintenance schedule?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you tear it down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll be happy.

[Assistant] Do you have a regular maintenance schedule?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you tear it down?

[User] No, we have an operational and maintenance procedure. The operation [and maintenance instruction] mainly tells you how to operate the system and all the whistles that the system has. We have a maintenance procedure that we do quarterly, semiannual, and annual PMs [definition?]. Then we do a load test every year. I think since Challenger they came out with, they call it the file six requirement. It’s a database that they created after Challenger that any critical system that [has] a requirement would be put into that database. So it have to be signed every 365 days. It had to be done that way. So the load test, when we pick up that weight, the total weight of the hoist, the 100% load test, we test each brake individually. We test the emergency brake, verify that it holds, and also holds at 150%. So you don’t choke the load if it’s activated.\n\n Regular maintenance on the wire ropes, on all the electrical components, and everything. So we keep a constant maintenance all the time. No matter if we use it or not. Then before every use we do a good preop, because the system is not used that constantly like the cranes over here that we use more. The preop there takes about maybe two, three days to get that done. So before we did Discovery we took pretty much a whole week because we haven’t used that one for a long long time. The weather has been nice, so it has been operating often. Everything worked fine in this onload that we did for Discovery.

[Assistant] So I guess on a couple sides you were busy, because as we were walking in you mentioned that Discovery had been kept in the VAB.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you tear it down?

[User] No, we have an operational and maintenance procedure. The operation [and maintenance instruction] mainly tells you how to operate the system and all the whistles that the system has. We have a maintenance procedure that we do quarterly, semiannual, and annual PMs [definition?]. Then we do a load test every year. I think since Challenger they came out with, they call it the file six requirement. It’s a database that they created after Challenger that any critical system that [has] a requirement would be put into that database. So it have to be signed every 365 days. It had to be done that way. So the load test, when we pick up that weight, the total weight of the hoist, the 100% load test, we test each brake individually. We test the emergency brake, verify that it holds, and also holds at 150%. So you don’t choke the load if it’s activated.\n\n Regular maintenance on the wire ropes, on all the electrical components, and everything. So we keep a constant maintenance all the time. No matter if we use it or not. Then before every use we do a good preop, because the system is not used that constantly like the cranes over here that we use more. The preop there takes about maybe two, three days to get that done. So before we did Discovery we took pretty much a whole week because we haven’t used that one for a long long time. The weather has been nice, so it has been operating often. Everything worked fine in this onload that we did for Discovery.

[Assistant] So I guess on a couple sides you were busy, because as we were walking in you mentioned that Discovery had been kept in the VAB.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] So do you mind walking me through the last couple weeks or however long it was that you actually started moving Discovery toward [ferry flight]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] So do you mind walking me through the last couple weeks or however long it was that you actually started moving Discovery toward [ferry flight]?

[User] Discovery was moved out of OPF-2 because it was completed. So they moved it to High Bay 4. NASA did that, because they don’t have another bay, because the other bay was rented to commercial people. They put it there, and they said, “Hey, now we can show it to people.” So they got tour buses coming into the VAB, and they could walk through for the tour people so they can see Discovery in High Bay 4. That was something nice extra that the tour people got to see. They were pretty close, maybe 25 feet from the orbiter.

[Assistant] That’s nice, that is close. So you babysat with her for a while.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you mentioned about a week before you went out to the --


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Discovery was moved out of OPF-2 because it was completed. So they moved it to High Bay 4. NASA did that, because they don’t have another bay, because the other bay was rented to commercial people. They put it there, and they said, “Hey, now we can show it to people.” So they got tour buses coming into the VAB, and they could walk through for the tour people so they can see Discovery in High Bay 4. That was something nice extra that the tour people got to see. They were pretty close, maybe 25 feet from the orbiter.

[Assistant] That’s nice, that is close. So you babysat with her for a while.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you mentioned about a week before you went out to the --

[User] To the MDD.

[Assistant] And checked it all out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you mentioned about a week before you went out to the --

[User] To the MDD.

[Assistant] And checked it all out.

[User] We did the preop on the hoist, on the SAP, and the X-Y system. So we did pretty extensive [tests]. We didn’t want them to have any hiccups. We know that there was a lot of people watching us and looking at it.

[Assistant] I guess on this onload you had a few more observers, I guess, than normal because of its destination.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To the MDD.

[Assistant] And checked it all out.

[User] We did the preop on the hoist, on the SAP, and the X-Y system. So we did pretty extensive [tests]. We didn’t want them to have any hiccups. We know that there was a lot of people watching us and looking at it.

[Assistant] I guess on this onload you had a few more observers, I guess, than normal because of its destination.

[User]
Yes, and TV, it has been recorded and everything. Everything was recorded.

Our OMI [Operations and Maintenance Instruction] systems, we have monthly maintenance that we do, and we have semiannuals every six months that we do, and then we have our annuals. The annuals are more extensive, deeper maintenance that we do than the others. Then our 100% load test where they bring these great big weight cages. They have these great big 10,000-pound plates that they shove in like a deck of cards. For each hoist connection we pick up these great big weight cages. It’s quite impressive. Do our testing.

[Assistant] What’s used for weight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did the preop on the hoist, on the SAP, and the X-Y system. So we did pretty extensive [tests]. We didn’t want them to have any hiccups. We know that there was a lot of people watching us and looking at it.

[Assistant] I guess on this onload you had a few more observers, I guess, than normal because of its destination.

[User]
Yes, and TV, it has been recorded and everything. Everything was recorded.

Our OMI [Operations and Maintenance Instruction] systems, we have monthly maintenance that we do, and we have semiannuals every six months that we do, and then we have our annuals. The annuals are more extensive, deeper maintenance that we do than the others. Then our 100% load test where they bring these great big weight cages. They have these great big 10,000-pound plates that they shove in like a deck of cards. For each hoist connection we pick up these great big weight cages. It’s quite impressive. Do our testing.

[Assistant] What’s used for weight?

[User]
Steel plates. I would say like two-inch-by--.

They call it like a test cage. They slap those [in] and put them on top of it.

Slide them in like cards. Two-inch. I would say they’re like six-by-ten maybe sheets of heavy heavy plates that they slide into a square frame, steel structural frame. Then we attach to that, pick it up. Three of them for each hoist. There’s three hoists. People forget. There’s two on the aft component of the sling setup because that’s where all your engines are. Basically your heaviest, like 60% I would say of the weight, is in the aft portion because of the three main engines and the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines and the fuel cells. The front portion of the Shuttle that we pick up is just one hoist. That’s much lighter because there’s not as much components in there.

[Assistant] Do you always test for the maximum load?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, and TV, it has been recorded and everything. Everything was recorded.

Our OMI [Operations and Maintenance Instruction] systems, we have monthly maintenance that we do, and we have semiannuals every six months that we do, and then we have our annuals. The annuals are more extensive, deeper maintenance that we do than the others. Then our 100% load test where they bring these great big weight cages. They have these great big 10,000-pound plates that they shove in like a deck of cards. For each hoist connection we pick up these great big weight cages. It’s quite impressive. Do our testing.

[Assistant] What’s used for weight?

[User]
Steel plates. I would say like two-inch-by--.

They call it like a test cage. They slap those [in] and put them on top of it.

Slide them in like cards. Two-inch. I would say they’re like six-by-ten maybe sheets of heavy heavy plates that they slide into a square frame, steel structural frame. Then we attach to that, pick it up. Three of them for each hoist. There’s three hoists. People forget. There’s two on the aft component of the sling setup because that’s where all your engines are. Basically your heaviest, like 60% I would say of the weight, is in the aft portion because of the three main engines and the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines and the fuel cells. The front portion of the Shuttle that we pick up is just one hoist. That’s much lighter because there’s not as much components in there.

[Assistant] Do you always test for the maximum load?

[User] Yes. 100%. If we do a modification in the brake system, in the path of that brake, we will have to do 125% load test, just to verify the integrity of the component and [that] everything worked fine. Then we continue doing the 100% load test on that one.

[Assistant] So for Discovery’s route last week, she left early Thursday, I think, morning. Wednesday morning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Steel plates. I would say like two-inch-by--.

They call it like a test cage. They slap those [in] and put them on top of it.

Slide them in like cards. Two-inch. I would say they’re like six-by-ten maybe sheets of heavy heavy plates that they slide into a square frame, steel structural frame. Then we attach to that, pick it up. Three of them for each hoist. There’s three hoists. People forget. There’s two on the aft component of the sling setup because that’s where all your engines are. Basically your heaviest, like 60% I would say of the weight, is in the aft portion because of the three main engines and the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines and the fuel cells. The front portion of the Shuttle that we pick up is just one hoist. That’s much lighter because there’s not as much components in there.

[Assistant] Do you always test for the maximum load?

[User] Yes. 100%. If we do a modification in the brake system, in the path of that brake, we will have to do 125% load test, just to verify the integrity of the component and [that] everything worked fine. Then we continue doing the 100% load test on that one.

[Assistant] So for Discovery’s route last week, she left early Thursday, I think, morning. Wednesday morning?

[User] No. Saturday morning. They took it out at 4:30 in the morning. We left the doors open the night before in High Bay 4. The weather was good, maybe cloudy but they didn’t care if it rained. The orbiter people came in, and heavy equipment came in. Put the threshover plates [in]. I think at 4:30 they were pulling it back. By the time the crane crew got here, it was already parked underneath the—they took in the wheels. So they tow it all the way back to the OPF. So from there on by 7:00, yes, they were ready to go.

[Assistant] So you just reported down to the SLF [Shuttle Landing Facility], is that what it’s called?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. 100%. If we do a modification in the brake system, in the path of that brake, we will have to do 125% load test, just to verify the integrity of the component and [that] everything worked fine. Then we continue doing the 100% load test on that one.

[Assistant] So for Discovery’s route last week, she left early Thursday, I think, morning. Wednesday morning?

[User] No. Saturday morning. They took it out at 4:30 in the morning. We left the doors open the night before in High Bay 4. The weather was good, maybe cloudy but they didn’t care if it rained. The orbiter people came in, and heavy equipment came in. Put the threshover plates [in]. I think at 4:30 they were pulling it back. By the time the crane crew got here, it was already parked underneath the—they took in the wheels. So they tow it all the way back to the OPF. So from there on by 7:00, yes, they were ready to go.

[Assistant] So you just reported down to the SLF [Shuttle Landing Facility], is that what it’s called?

[User] To the MDD, yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that morning? I understand you had weather again that caused a little issue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, this Saturday. Yes this Saturday we hook[ed] up everything. We lifted the front, and we were lowering down. We attached the aft, and then we had to stop there. We were supposed to pick it up so we can get the 747 underneath. We [could not] do it because of wind restraint. The wind was coming from the southeast at 26 to 28 knots. The tolerance is 16. If the wind comes from the east I think 16. You can put more wind straight from the front because it doesn’t move the orbiter. So we had to stop. Safety shut us down. We had to get wood cribbage, how do you call those?

Cribbing.

We had to put the cribbing in the front wheel about four feet high and lower the front a little bit. So we set the front wheel in there and lock[ed] it up, and [left] the orbiter hanging in there halfway until the next day. So he took over the next day, and they were able to finish it.

Yes it went very smooth Sunday. We completed everything pretty much ahead of schedule. Worked out well.

[Assistant] So safety issues like on Saturday, was there more of a concern for the orbiter or more concern for the people working?

[User] For both. For both, because you got a load that is doing this. [Demonstrates]

[Assistant] Moving back and forth.

[User]
Yes, back and forth. Even though it’s going to a machine, you don’t want to damage anyhow.

Well, you know what, they’ve had data basically on side loads from wind. People forget that when you have that huge tail rudder and the side of the orbiter, you have a wind of let’s say 10, 15 knots, you have about 4,000 or 5,000 pounds of force from that wind. It’s basically a sail like on a sailboat. A lot of loads.

[Assistant] With a tail that big, you’re right. So you were finished on Sunday, correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For both. For both, because you got a load that is doing this. [Demonstrates]

[Assistant] Moving back and forth.

[User]
Yes, back and forth. Even though it’s going to a machine, you don’t want to damage anyhow.

Well, you know what, they’ve had data basically on side loads from wind. People forget that when you have that huge tail rudder and the side of the orbiter, you have a wind of let’s say 10, 15 knots, you have about 4,000 or 5,000 pounds of force from that wind. It’s basically a sail like on a sailboat. A lot of loads.

[Assistant] With a tail that big, you’re right. So you were finished on Sunday, correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long does it normally take if you don’t have weather conditions or a brake having to be replaced?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, back and forth. Even though it’s going to a machine, you don’t want to damage anyhow.

Well, you know what, they’ve had data basically on side loads from wind. People forget that when you have that huge tail rudder and the side of the orbiter, you have a wind of let’s say 10, 15 knots, you have about 4,000 or 5,000 pounds of force from that wind. It’s basically a sail like on a sailboat. A lot of loads.

[Assistant] With a tail that big, you’re right. So you were finished on Sunday, correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long does it normally take if you don’t have weather conditions or a brake having to be replaced?

[User]
Usually takes between 14 to 16 hours pretty much from the beginning to end. It all depends. This was beautiful weather even though it was windy Saturday. We didn’t have any mosquitoes. You didn’t have nothing that bothers you, because sometimes it gets so bad with mosquitoes on there it’s unbelievable. You have to put one of those screen jackets so the mosquito wouldn’t bother you. It’s unbelievable the amount of mosquitoes.

One of my fondest memories of the MDD is I had to operate—it was a 24-hour shift. Had to come in at 7:00 and work 7:00 in the morning. It was drizzling rain. It was in the middle of August and hot, drizzling rain. I was glazed over like a doughnut with Deep Woods OFF. The winds were coming and going, but I remember the floodlights. We have five stadiumlike floodlights, and it was at night in this drizzling rain. They were swarming around the floodlights, the mosquitoes, and they created like a vortex around these floodlights. I was staring saying, “Oh my God this is unbelievable.” That was a rough shift, going through that night and all day.

[Assistant] I don’t know what the use of mosquitoes is, but they’re horrible, they’re just horrible. Tell me is there a difference, a risk factor in operations procedure when you’re doing a night operation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I started in ’84. They landed over there 54 times, plus the one in White Sands [Space Harbor, New Mexico]. From that maybe half of it, or a little bit more than half.

[Assistant] Did you do the [OMDPs, Orbit Maintenance Down Periods]? Would you help load them go to back out and come back in?

[User] Yes. Well, that was when they did the upgrades on the orbiter. They had to be sent back to California, Rockwell. So they had to be onloaded and sent back to Rockwell for that.

[Assistant] How many have you been involved with, Don?

[User]
I guess I started 11 years ago and pretty much all the ones. To count them, I can’t really count them. It’s just I guess about 10 or 12 maybe.

No, I think more than that.

More than that? I lost track.

[Assistant] I guess they’re all the same, but yet every one is different every time you do it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, that was when they did the upgrades on the orbiter. They had to be sent back to California, Rockwell. So they had to be onloaded and sent back to Rockwell for that.

[Assistant] How many have you been involved with, Don?

[User]
I guess I started 11 years ago and pretty much all the ones. To count them, I can’t really count them. It’s just I guess about 10 or 12 maybe.

No, I think more than that.

More than that? I lost track.

[Assistant] I guess they’re all the same, but yet every one is different every time you do it.

[User] Well, it all depends. At the beginning they were all landing in Edwards. So you knew that you were going to use the MDD. Then later on they said, “No, we save $1 million every time we land here. So hey, why don’t we start using KSC?” Then they start using KSC. But sometimes the weather here was so bad that they still had to use Edwards. So the people that go to Edwards, sometimes they were sent the same day. They said, “Hey, you have to get your stuff, get a military plane, and take you off over there.”

[Assistant] So did your crew go to Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I guess I started 11 years ago and pretty much all the ones. To count them, I can’t really count them. It’s just I guess about 10 or 12 maybe.

No, I think more than that.

More than that? I lost track.

[Assistant] I guess they’re all the same, but yet every one is different every time you do it.

[User] Well, it all depends. At the beginning they were all landing in Edwards. So you knew that you were going to use the MDD. Then later on they said, “No, we save $1 million every time we land here. So hey, why don’t we start using KSC?” Then they start using KSC. But sometimes the weather here was so bad that they still had to use Edwards. So the people that go to Edwards, sometimes they were sent the same day. They said, “Hey, you have to get your stuff, get a military plane, and take you off over there.”

[Assistant] So did your crew go to Edwards?

[User]
No, we don’t operate over there, but we support engineeringwise for that.

Problems with the hoist and things like that, mechanical, electrical.

Yes, he went there one time to do a load test, no?

No. I was out there for—they had that other structure—what was that called?

Oh. The frame.

The OLF [Orbiter Lifting Frame].

The lifting frame that they use in White Sands.

[Assistant] White Sands and Palmdale [California].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it all depends. At the beginning they were all landing in Edwards. So you knew that you were going to use the MDD. Then later on they said, “No, we save $1 million every time we land here. So hey, why don’t we start using KSC?” Then they start using KSC. But sometimes the weather here was so bad that they still had to use Edwards. So the people that go to Edwards, sometimes they were sent the same day. They said, “Hey, you have to get your stuff, get a military plane, and take you off over there.”

[Assistant] So did your crew go to Edwards?

[User]
No, we don’t operate over there, but we support engineeringwise for that.

Problems with the hoist and things like that, mechanical, electrical.

Yes, he went there one time to do a load test, no?

No. I was out there for—they had that other structure—what was that called?

Oh. The frame.

The OLF [Orbiter Lifting Frame].

The lifting frame that they use in White Sands.

[Assistant] White Sands and Palmdale [California].

[User] It was interesting. I went out there to decommission that and take it down. I was looking at everything. Everything was just in perfect condition. I was like—[demonstrates].

[Assistant] I’m so jealous.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, we don’t operate over there, but we support engineeringwise for that.

Problems with the hoist and things like that, mechanical, electrical.

Yes, he went there one time to do a load test, no?

No. I was out there for—they had that other structure—what was that called?

Oh. The frame.

The OLF [Orbiter Lifting Frame].

The lifting frame that they use in White Sands.

[Assistant] White Sands and Palmdale [California].

[User] It was interesting. I went out there to decommission that and take it down. I was looking at everything. Everything was just in perfect condition. I was like—[demonstrates].

[Assistant] I’m so jealous.

[User] It’s like it’s a shame to take this facility down, because everything was working so well.

[Assistant] So what will happen to the mate/demate here I guess after Endeavour leaves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I don’t know.

I hope they demolition it to be honest with you.

[Assistant] Really?

[User]
It needs it. It’s seen its day; it has absolutely seen its day.

Yes, it has been there for what, [52] years pretty much.

[Assistant] Amazing.

[User]
I’ll be glad to see that—believe it or not—taken down.

Unless they come with something similar to the orbiter, something that they can use. I don’t see any other reason for that at all.

I think it would have been a lot better if they had enclosed it somewhat, keep the weather off it.

[Assistant] Did it ever move? Has it just always been at the SLF?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It needs it. It’s seen its day; it has absolutely seen its day.

Yes, it has been there for what, [52] years pretty much.

[Assistant] Amazing.

[User]
I’ll be glad to see that—believe it or not—taken down.

Unless they come with something similar to the orbiter, something that they can use. I don’t see any other reason for that at all.

I think it would have been a lot better if they had enclosed it somewhat, keep the weather off it.

[Assistant] Did it ever move? Has it just always been at the SLF?

[User]
Always been on the apron. On the ramp over there on the northeast part of the ramp. Pretty much at the end of the runway where the Shuttle facility office are.

I have a little bit of a funny story. I was out there, and we changed the wire ropes. That was one of the mods [modifications] we did out there. Then they also painted the facility, top to bottom. We had a contractor come out and paint this, removed all the rust. So I was going back out there to do a follow-up on the painting. Here’s this beautiful facility. At the top there must have been I would say about 35, 40 buzzards sitting up there, already messing up the facility. I was mad. I went up the stairs, all the way up to the 100-foot level to these buzzards that were sitting on the handrails. They would not move.

[Assistant] They claimed their spot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I’ll be glad to see that—believe it or not—taken down.

Unless they come with something similar to the orbiter, something that they can use. I don’t see any other reason for that at all.

I think it would have been a lot better if they had enclosed it somewhat, keep the weather off it.

[Assistant] Did it ever move? Has it just always been at the SLF?

[User]
Always been on the apron. On the ramp over there on the northeast part of the ramp. Pretty much at the end of the runway where the Shuttle facility office are.

I have a little bit of a funny story. I was out there, and we changed the wire ropes. That was one of the mods [modifications] we did out there. Then they also painted the facility, top to bottom. We had a contractor come out and paint this, removed all the rust. So I was going back out there to do a follow-up on the painting. Here’s this beautiful facility. At the top there must have been I would say about 35, 40 buzzards sitting up there, already messing up the facility. I was mad. I went up the stairs, all the way up to the 100-foot level to these buzzards that were sitting on the handrails. They would not move.

[Assistant] They claimed their spot.

[User]
I was probably four, five feet away from them waving my arms, yelling at them, and those buzzards looked at me like, “Who the heck are you?”

Hey, this is wildlife here.

So basically they won that battle.

[Assistant] Now did you mention snakes get in there as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Always been on the apron. On the ramp over there on the northeast part of the ramp. Pretty much at the end of the runway where the Shuttle facility office are.

I have a little bit of a funny story. I was out there, and we changed the wire ropes. That was one of the mods [modifications] we did out there. Then they also painted the facility, top to bottom. We had a contractor come out and paint this, removed all the rust. So I was going back out there to do a follow-up on the painting. Here’s this beautiful facility. At the top there must have been I would say about 35, 40 buzzards sitting up there, already messing up the facility. I was mad. I went up the stairs, all the way up to the 100-foot level to these buzzards that were sitting on the handrails. They would not move.

[Assistant] They claimed their spot.

[User]
I was probably four, five feet away from them waving my arms, yelling at them, and those buzzards looked at me like, “Who the heck are you?”

Hey, this is wildlife here.

So basically they won that battle.

[Assistant] Now did you mention snakes get in there as well?

[User]
Oh yes snakes. Like he was telling [you]. We have—it’s like a little room that was at the 100-foot level. They use it for antennas and communication and something like that, but at the end they took all that stuff out. There was wasps; there was snakes. Anything gets in there, and storage in there.

Wasps.

[Assistant] Long way for a snake to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I was probably four, five feet away from them waving my arms, yelling at them, and those buzzards looked at me like, “Who the heck are you?”

Hey, this is wildlife here.

So basically they won that battle.

[Assistant] Now did you mention snakes get in there as well?

[User]
Oh yes snakes. Like he was telling [you]. We have—it’s like a little room that was at the 100-foot level. They use it for antennas and communication and something like that, but at the end they took all that stuff out. There was wasps; there was snakes. Anything gets in there, and storage in there.

Wasps.

[Assistant] Long way for a snake to go.

[User]
I know.

There must have been 100,000 wasps in that side of that room. You look inside through the window, and you can see the nests on the ceiling. They would come out and bother you. You’d be working and these wasps would be all around you. So I was really glad when they took that down. Then also we had a brake cover, a box. We noticed inside the box there were some baby rabbits or something so I didn’t want to disturb them. They were in a little area underneath it. It seemed like they wouldn’t hurt anything, so I left it. Came back the next monthly maintenance. There was a big snake in place of the baby rabbits.

[Assistant] This is elevated, right? These snakes go up this elevated platform.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes snakes. Like he was telling [you]. We have—it’s like a little room that was at the 100-foot level. They use it for antennas and communication and something like that, but at the end they took all that stuff out. There was wasps; there was snakes. Anything gets in there, and storage in there.

Wasps.

[Assistant] Long way for a snake to go.

[User]
I know.

There must have been 100,000 wasps in that side of that room. You look inside through the window, and you can see the nests on the ceiling. They would come out and bother you. You’d be working and these wasps would be all around you. So I was really glad when they took that down. Then also we had a brake cover, a box. We noticed inside the box there were some baby rabbits or something so I didn’t want to disturb them. They were in a little area underneath it. It seemed like they wouldn’t hurt anything, so I left it. Came back the next monthly maintenance. There was a big snake in place of the baby rabbits.

[Assistant] This is elevated, right? These snakes go up this elevated platform.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Unbelievable. There were a couple times in the Shuttle program that flights were halted, after Challenger and after Columbia [STS-107]. Did that timeframe allow your group to make any other modifications on your operation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We never got that frozen part. It was really cold that day.

My point out here is that we did that many critical connections and have a perfect record. I’m kind of proud of it.

On the crane side at least.

On the crane side.

The only thing that happened one time was in the RPSF [Rotation Processing and Surge Facility]. Remember we [had] a failure in one of the load cells on the crane. We damaged the clevis on one of the SRBs. We pulled too much on it. That was one time. But one in so many, I think we have a good record.

[Assistant] Processes, it’s so important for the next person that comes through. Is your process different on the MDD? Was it different than the process the use out at Dryden? Or did you copy the process pretty closely?

[User]
I’ve never been there. So I think they use pretty much the same process.

Same thing. Same OMI, the same.

[Assistant] OMI is --

[User] It’s an operations instruction or maintenance instruction, whatever you want to call it. They call it operations and maintenance instruction, OMI.

[Assistant] I’m going to take a second and look at my notes and see if there’s something else, if you’ll do the same so that we don’t miss anything. Pretty much what you’re saying, the mating and demating have remained the same. The processes remained the same for all those years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I’ve never been there. So I think they use pretty much the same process.

Same thing. Same OMI, the same.

[Assistant] OMI is --

[User] It’s an operations instruction or maintenance instruction, whatever you want to call it. They call it operations and maintenance instruction, OMI.

[Assistant] I’m going to take a second and look at my notes and see if there’s something else, if you’ll do the same so that we don’t miss anything. Pretty much what you’re saying, the mating and demating have remained the same. The processes remained the same for all those years.

[User]
Yes.

Pretty much.

[Assistant] Really no different on the fact that there are two SCAs? They mate the same?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s an operations instruction or maintenance instruction, whatever you want to call it. They call it operations and maintenance instruction, OMI.

[Assistant] I’m going to take a second and look at my notes and see if there’s something else, if you’ll do the same so that we don’t miss anything. Pretty much what you’re saying, the mating and demating have remained the same. The processes remained the same for all those years.

[User]
Yes.

Pretty much.

[Assistant] Really no different on the fact that there are two SCAs? They mate the same?

[User]
Yes, pretty much.

I think the only difference was the one brake issue, and then the one out at Edwards has an elevator.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes.

Pretty much.

[Assistant] Really no different on the fact that there are two SCAs? They mate the same?

[User]
Yes, pretty much.

I think the only difference was the one brake issue, and then the one out at Edwards has an elevator.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.

[User] Everything that comes from the West Coast comes with elevators. You remember the OPF, the platform in OPF-3. They come with an elevator. Over here we don’t, we have to walk.

[Assistant] Can you share with me how different it’s going to be when they offload Discovery and onload Enterprise? What the operations are going to be at [Washington] Dulles [International Airport, Virginia]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, pretty much.

I think the only difference was the one brake issue, and then the one out at Edwards has an elevator.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.

[User] Everything that comes from the West Coast comes with elevators. You remember the OPF, the platform in OPF-3. They come with an elevator. Over here we don’t, we have to walk.

[Assistant] Can you share with me how different it’s going to be when they offload Discovery and onload Enterprise? What the operations are going to be at [Washington] Dulles [International Airport, Virginia]?

[User]
It’s going to be contracted. We’re not going to be involved in it, at least United Space Alliance. We still have heavy equipment engineers going over there, because they’re going to be using mobile cranes. So they’re going to have to have a fixture similar to the one that we have here, hook it up by two mobile cranes. They have to do the same process: pick it up, take the bolts out, pick it up, remove the SCA, and then land it, put it down, open the landing gears and set it down on the floor. But it’s tricky. They’re trying to get the cranes. I think they’re 500-ton cranes. They’re going to try to get it with the operator, the people that do the operation constantly every day. It’s not worth it to send an operator from here that doesn’t know the crane. That way they know the cranes pretty good. So that’s the way they’re going to be doing the offloading over there in Virginia.

Basically a mobile boom crane.

[Assistant] Make you nervous? That somebody’s touching your orbiters? How many times you touched them, and they’re yours, and somebody else is going to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything that comes from the West Coast comes with elevators. You remember the OPF, the platform in OPF-3. They come with an elevator. Over here we don’t, we have to walk.

[Assistant] Can you share with me how different it’s going to be when they offload Discovery and onload Enterprise? What the operations are going to be at [Washington] Dulles [International Airport, Virginia]?

[User]
It’s going to be contracted. We’re not going to be involved in it, at least United Space Alliance. We still have heavy equipment engineers going over there, because they’re going to be using mobile cranes. So they’re going to have to have a fixture similar to the one that we have here, hook it up by two mobile cranes. They have to do the same process: pick it up, take the bolts out, pick it up, remove the SCA, and then land it, put it down, open the landing gears and set it down on the floor. But it’s tricky. They’re trying to get the cranes. I think they’re 500-ton cranes. They’re going to try to get it with the operator, the people that do the operation constantly every day. It’s not worth it to send an operator from here that doesn’t know the crane. That way they know the cranes pretty good. So that’s the way they’re going to be doing the offloading over there in Virginia.

Basically a mobile boom crane.

[Assistant] Make you nervous? That somebody’s touching your orbiters? How many times you touched them, and they’re yours, and somebody else is going to do that.

[User] At least they’re going to be shown for everybody now.

[Assistant] That’s good. Well, Roberto, do you have some other aspects or some other notes or thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It’s going to be contracted. We’re not going to be involved in it, at least United Space Alliance. We still have heavy equipment engineers going over there, because they’re going to be using mobile cranes. So they’re going to have to have a fixture similar to the one that we have here, hook it up by two mobile cranes. They have to do the same process: pick it up, take the bolts out, pick it up, remove the SCA, and then land it, put it down, open the landing gears and set it down on the floor. But it’s tricky. They’re trying to get the cranes. I think they’re 500-ton cranes. They’re going to try to get it with the operator, the people that do the operation constantly every day. It’s not worth it to send an operator from here that doesn’t know the crane. That way they know the cranes pretty good. So that’s the way they’re going to be doing the offloading over there in Virginia.

Basically a mobile boom crane.

[Assistant] Make you nervous? That somebody’s touching your orbiters? How many times you touched them, and they’re yours, and somebody else is going to do that.

[User] At least they’re going to be shown for everybody now.

[Assistant] That’s good. Well, Roberto, do you have some other aspects or some other notes or thoughts?

[User] No, I pretty much covered everything that we have here. We have pretty much covered everything.

[Assistant] Don, do you have some other things you’d like to add or something you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At least they’re going to be shown for everybody now.

[Assistant] That’s good. Well, Roberto, do you have some other aspects or some other notes or thoughts?

[User] No, I pretty much covered everything that we have here. We have pretty much covered everything.

[Assistant] Don, do you have some other things you’d like to add or something you can think of?

[User]
I think we covered it pretty well.

We feel proud of working over here. We didn’t like the way it ended, because we didn’t have a solution for taking astronauts to the Space Station. But hey, we have to live with it and keep on going. We’ll be here until they throw us out of here.

[Assistant] That’s all of us. You’ve got to keep the cranes happy, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I pretty much covered everything that we have here. We have pretty much covered everything.

[Assistant] Don, do you have some other things you’d like to add or something you can think of?

[User]
I think we covered it pretty well.

We feel proud of working over here. We didn’t like the way it ended, because we didn’t have a solution for taking astronauts to the Space Station. But hey, we have to live with it and keep on going. We’ll be here until they throw us out of here.

[Assistant] That’s all of us. You’ve got to keep the cranes happy, right?

[User]
Yes. That’s mainly why we stay here, for the T&R, for transition and retirement. Also NASA wants to keep the cranes ready to go. So we have another contract besides the T&R that was called code capability to do the maintenance on the VAB and some modifications they want to do for the vertical door that he’s getting involved in, the whole group is getting involved. It’s pretty neat. We’re doing a lot of work, even though we’re doing only T&R. But we have some other stuff. It’s good and keep us busy until the end.

Yes, a lot of infrastructure rebuilding, especially in the VAB. We have all those 28 vertical doors which are 90,000 pounds each. They’re basically elevators, because you have counterweight systems with them. We’re modifying those lifting systems. They’re basically like a lifting system.

And what are you doing? Installing a disk brake with a caliper.

Installing a new caliper disk brake.

There he goes again.

[Assistant] Using all that experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think we covered it pretty well.

We feel proud of working over here. We didn’t like the way it ended, because we didn’t have a solution for taking astronauts to the Space Station. But hey, we have to live with it and keep on going. We’ll be here until they throw us out of here.

[Assistant] That’s all of us. You’ve got to keep the cranes happy, right?

[User]
Yes. That’s mainly why we stay here, for the T&R, for transition and retirement. Also NASA wants to keep the cranes ready to go. So we have another contract besides the T&R that was called code capability to do the maintenance on the VAB and some modifications they want to do for the vertical door that he’s getting involved in, the whole group is getting involved. It’s pretty neat. We’re doing a lot of work, even though we’re doing only T&R. But we have some other stuff. It’s good and keep us busy until the end.

Yes, a lot of infrastructure rebuilding, especially in the VAB. We have all those 28 vertical doors which are 90,000 pounds each. They’re basically elevators, because you have counterweight systems with them. We’re modifying those lifting systems. They’re basically like a lifting system.

And what are you doing? Installing a disk brake with a caliper.

Installing a new caliper disk brake.

There he goes again.

[Assistant] Using all that experience.

[User] Yes. We have an old what they call dog system that bites into the rail. They sag and inadvertently grab. We have a lot of problems with those so we’re modifying the lifting system. People forget those vertical doors are elevators, because you have these huge counterweights which are 4 by 4 by 30 feet long approximately, 80,000-pound deadweight that help lift the doors up and lower them down. We’re doing that big modification, United Space Alliance, as our last big job. We took on a contractor role.

[Assistant] That’s good. I’m sure the VAB has got a lot of years ahead of her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We have an old what they call dog system that bites into the rail. They sag and inadvertently grab. We have a lot of problems with those so we’re modifying the lifting system. People forget those vertical doors are elevators, because you have these huge counterweights which are 4 by 4 by 30 feet long approximately, 80,000-pound deadweight that help lift the doors up and lower them down. We’re doing that big modification, United Space Alliance, as our last big job. We took on a contractor role.

[Assistant] That’s good. I’m sure the VAB has got a lot of years ahead of her.

[User]
Oh yes. Pretty much they repainted everything. They changed all the steel that was rusted pretty much everywhere.

Yes, we’re keeping the building in pretty good shape. We’re doing a lot of work on it. You can see out in the transfer aisle all the stuff they’re hauling off. Every day it fills up, and they haul off the trucks. It’s amazing.

All the stuff that has been staged in here in the building.

Just amazing. I mean probably hundreds of tons of just accumulation of stuff in here.

I talked to the guys that are doing it. You have stuff in here that has been 30 years old that they haven’t used it but they store it in here. Now they have to throw it away finally.

[Assistant] Well, if you don’t have anything else to add. I’m just curious. Do you name your cranes? Do they all have names, your equipment?

[User] Yes, names in the sense that we call it by the tonnage. Tonnage and crane one, crane two, or depending on the location they are. We call the MDD the MDD, mate/demate.

[Assistant] Do you cross-train all the folks so that they can work on crane one or crane two? Or do you have specific operators?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, at the beginning we used to cover 24 hours. So we have engineers on first shift and second shift. So the second shifter will have to be more knowledgeable pretty much because he’s by himself. Whenever we have to cover 24 hours he will have to stay 4 hours. The guys in the morning have to come in 4 hours early. So we cover the third shift that way. So whoever’s in second, you better get moving, because something happens, it’s going to be on your watch.

I’m the last mechanical guy in the group. So I have to cover everything pretty much, all the cranes that we still have and all the doors. I think as we lost people you accept more responsibility, and you have to cover more. We’re multitasked now.

He’s the only mechanical left. I’m electrical. We got three more electrical. Pretty much we have a lot more problems with the electrical parts of the crane than the mechanical. So that’s how we did it. But we’re helping everywhere. Helping with the door mod. We’re just here just to cover everything. It works out well.

One thing I have to say, the 325-ton cranes are very complicated cranes. The amount of computers. We’ll have the length of the bridge. Half of it with cabinets stuffed with electronics and programmable logic computers and controllers and watchdog controllers. When those things start giving us trouble, it is unbelievable how difficult it is to troubleshoot some of the problems we have.

A lot of software. You have so [much] software involved in it. That’s why we’re getting more younger people in that part to help us with the computer stuff.

[Assistant] Truly has a life of its own.

[User] Yes, that’s right. You got it right.

[Assistant] Well, thank you both for spending the morning with me. Appreciate it.

[User] Thank you for letting us [have] this opportunity.

[Assistant] It’s very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. I was extremely lucky I have to say. Remember, I came in doing something completely different. I had no clue that I would be involved in anything like this when I first came.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, and kind of sad at the same time that we’re missing those opportunities now. I assume it’s because of funding issues that everybody else is going through.

[User] Well, and the overall sense of needing control. In the military you want to have control, but when you are doing research you have to relax. People do, to a degree. The management, the Science management, understands all this. The point is it’s not a formal acceptance.\n\n It’s different, it’s different. It drives some people away from NASA, and if they can get an equivalent position at a university, they would go. And they have. As I say, they could go to Headquarters and manage the programs that they don’t like. It’s a choice one has to make, or just go in a different field. That happens, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned the military, and it just brought to mind one of the things I read about. This was back in ’80 again. It’s on your CV [curriculum vitae] that you were an organizer for the NASA–U.S. Army Workshop on Sub/Near Millimeter Wave Technology.

[User] It could be. Was that in Maryland?

[Assistant] At Goddard, it says.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, of course. Of course. When I went another time a few years later, a couple of years later, I think I had a phone call—they also asked just general questions. They had specific questions—whether specific people were there. I said I didn’t meet them, I don’t know who they are. I think the third time I was busy, and then they never called back. It sort of decayed with the Cold War.

[Assistant] That’s quite an experience, and I don’t blame you. I think I would have been a little nervous on the plane.

[User] Oh, yes. There’s nowhere to run.

[Assistant] Yes, exactly. Unless you had a parachute, that was it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned the work you did at Headquarters, and that was between ’93 and ’96. What exactly were you doing in that position? It says “Manager, Planetary Instrument Definition and Development Program [PIDDP].” Talk about that for a minute, and what you were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember it very well. I had a migraine. I had to go to downtown Boston—this was the first day out of the country, there. I hated coming to Boston. I had to come down to get sworn in by the GSA. I remember coming in from the north, 93 or whatever it was, and there was terrible, terrible traffic. It was probably typical daily traffic, but I had never experienced it before. I got to GSA; sworn in, I had such a night. I turned around and came home. I never got here the first day. I said, "This is not a good sign." But the next day, I was better when I came back. That was my first day. I had met Jim a couple of times, while he was attending the Archives' directors' meetings in Washington, so I knew of Jim, and I didn't know of anybody else here.

[Assistant] What was your role here at this time? You were hired, at that point, in January 1977?

[User] Yeah. As a general assistant to Jim Owens. I think, as I said, most of it was anticipating getting in there and doing truly backroom archives work in the stacks. Initially, I had to go learn how this operated, and there was a lot of genealogy involved at first. My role was typically research room, reference room, and working with the public.

[Assistant] You also had to work with the Federal Records Center, which was a huge presence here, right?

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] What was that like? Did you know much about the Federal Records Center? And how it interacts with the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. As a general assistant to Jim Owens. I think, as I said, most of it was anticipating getting in there and doing truly backroom archives work in the stacks. Initially, I had to go learn how this operated, and there was a lot of genealogy involved at first. My role was typically research room, reference room, and working with the public.

[Assistant] You also had to work with the Federal Records Center, which was a huge presence here, right?

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] What was that like? Did you know much about the Federal Records Center? And how it interacts with the Archives?

[User] Well, yes. I got to know them very easily. I got to know the people, the archivists in this side of the building and so forth. We'd work with them getting records transferred to the Archives. I had no problem at all with the Records Center people.

[Assistant] Describe some of your functions that you've formed over your time at the National Archives; the various groups that you met—you mentioned genealogy. Describe other organizations and groups that you worked with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] What was that like? Did you know much about the Federal Records Center? And how it interacts with the Archives?

[User] Well, yes. I got to know them very easily. I got to know the people, the archivists in this side of the building and so forth. We'd work with them getting records transferred to the Archives. I had no problem at all with the Records Center people.

[Assistant] Describe some of your functions that you've formed over your time at the National Archives; the various groups that you met—you mentioned genealogy. Describe other organizations and groups that you worked with.

[User] Well, our clientele included academics; you know, professors who were doing research on certain things, and students were coming all the time. So, there were some academics. I was a member of the Council of America's Military Past (CAMP), and a lot of the people in this area were interested in post-artillery forts. And there were quite a few of them that were looking for records on military facilities in New England. They pushed the researchers to me and I was able to assist them, because I got to know the records, and so forth. I assisted them quite a bit. Did some work with the volunteer program, initially with the volunteer program, but I was never involved too much in going out and speaking to school groups, or rotary clubs, and so on, and so on. Jim and others pretty much took care of that. My clientele were mostly visitors to the facility, here.

[Assistant] And what would you say your daily activities were? You pretty much were processing archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you have all the elite, original records that are still here, or wherever, and they're not going to be online, or microfilmed or anything in the near future. So, we've got lots of records in the backroom, there. Someone's going to have to get them out and take care of them. The outreach part, yeah, I was never a fan of outreach. People who are more comfortable doing it, speaking to groups and so forth—Jim being one of them, but even Walter when he was here, and others—that outreach was done in a number of ways; some major ways and some very minor ways. I think, certainly, it is going to be people who are doing historical work and needing, certainly there's many people who are doing historical work and needing properly cared for and properly described historical records to use. There is no room in Washington. They're still regionalizing records. Is that true, I presume, that records are still coming from Washington?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Directly to the Archives?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] A lot of those records have not been truly processed and described, and so forth. There's work still to be done here, so I would say so. The outreach, that can be done. Diane was really into outreach a lot. And Jim went along with it, to a certain extent. But I kind of just stayed in the back room, where I was happier.

[Assistant] What would you say Stan Tozeski's legacy would be here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Directly to the Archives?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] A lot of those records have not been truly processed and described, and so forth. There's work still to be done here, so I would say so. The outreach, that can be done. Diane was really into outreach a lot. And Jim went along with it, to a certain extent. But I kind of just stayed in the back room, where I was happier.

[Assistant] What would you say Stan Tozeski's legacy would be here?

[User] Legacy? Well, legacy is a catchy, catchy word to use. I think my description work, which I enjoyed doing, I think I did a good job on that. So, any of the description and processing of the collections would be up there.

[Assistant] If you had to change one thing regarding the National Archives itself, what would you change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of those records have not been truly processed and described, and so forth. There's work still to be done here, so I would say so. The outreach, that can be done. Diane was really into outreach a lot. And Jim went along with it, to a certain extent. But I kind of just stayed in the back room, where I was happier.

[Assistant] What would you say Stan Tozeski's legacy would be here?

[User] Legacy? Well, legacy is a catchy, catchy word to use. I think my description work, which I enjoyed doing, I think I did a good job on that. So, any of the description and processing of the collections would be up there.

[Assistant] If you had to change one thing regarding the National Archives itself, what would you change?

[User] No, I can't weigh n.

[Assistant] What should they do a better job at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Legacy? Well, legacy is a catchy, catchy word to use. I think my description work, which I enjoyed doing, I think I did a good job on that. So, any of the description and processing of the collections would be up there.

[Assistant] If you had to change one thing regarding the National Archives itself, what would you change?

[User] No, I can't weigh n.

[Assistant] What should they do a better job at?

[User] For people like myself, or the public at home?

[Assistant] The National Archives as a whole. What should they be doing a better job at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I can't weigh n.

[Assistant] What should they do a better job at?

[User] For people like myself, or the public at home?

[Assistant] The National Archives as a whole. What should they be doing a better job at?

[User] Well, I don’t think they should try to compete with some of the other people in some of the same business—your Library of Congress and other—I always got the feeling that the National Archives, sometimes, wanted to get on the bandwagon, which other people were already doing and had been doing for a long time, just to say, "Look, we can do it, too." You know? I guess you can understand some of that, but as long as they realize that this involvement and a lot of stuff wasn't truly in line with the National Archives mission takes time, and staff, and money, and so forth. Maybe, narrowing this scope of activities and to eliminate a lot of the distractions that can come from competition with the other assistance. The National Archives, is supposed to to have the best qualified people, and most knowledgeable people, and there are a lot of smaller archival activities going on all over the country that could use self-publication, maybe that National Archives could put out, or a workshop they could give someplace, and so on. So, the advisory system's function would remain. I don't know whether it would change anything. 15 years out of the game, I'm not sure what they would be doing for the past 15 years.

[Assistant] If you had to do it all over again, what would you change? Would you change anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For people like myself, or the public at home?

[Assistant] The National Archives as a whole. What should they be doing a better job at?

[User] Well, I don’t think they should try to compete with some of the other people in some of the same business—your Library of Congress and other—I always got the feeling that the National Archives, sometimes, wanted to get on the bandwagon, which other people were already doing and had been doing for a long time, just to say, "Look, we can do it, too." You know? I guess you can understand some of that, but as long as they realize that this involvement and a lot of stuff wasn't truly in line with the National Archives mission takes time, and staff, and money, and so forth. Maybe, narrowing this scope of activities and to eliminate a lot of the distractions that can come from competition with the other assistance. The National Archives, is supposed to to have the best qualified people, and most knowledgeable people, and there are a lot of smaller archival activities going on all over the country that could use self-publication, maybe that National Archives could put out, or a workshop they could give someplace, and so on. So, the advisory system's function would remain. I don't know whether it would change anything. 15 years out of the game, I'm not sure what they would be doing for the past 15 years.

[Assistant] If you had to do it all over again, what would you change? Would you change anything?

[User] Career advancement, and so forth? No, I don't think so.

[Assistant] Okay. Before we end this interview, two more questions; the next one being, tell us a little bit about your post-NARA career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Finally, the last question: Is there anything more to add? Any anecdotes that you can recall?

[User] I was thinking about that. Nothing major. Kind of routine, humdrum affair in the backroom, for the most part. I'm afraid I don't have anything in the way of exciting activities, or discoveries, or—let me look at some of the notes I put down here. You were asking about membership, and so forth. I did belong to quite a few regional activities, and as an archivist, the Council on an abandoned military post and a company of military historians, Boston Area Archives Troop, and that sort of thing. The Academy actually got me a membership at the Society of American Archivists (SAA). While I was there, I was an SAA member, but it was through the Military Academy. After leaving there, I did not retain my membership.

[Assistant] Do you think those memberships helped you in the work that you were able to do?

[User] Oh, sure. The context alone—and then, of course, you were readily able to tell them what we had, here, especially these military guys. As a result, we got quite a bit of statistics about these guys coming in and using our paper records. So, that was good. It all worked out well. That was a nice social thing as well, because there were these periodic meetings of these groups, that was nice to go to, to kind of show the flag.

[Assistant] Did you ever meet any celebrities or important military individuals in your time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. The context alone—and then, of course, you were readily able to tell them what we had, here, especially these military guys. As a result, we got quite a bit of statistics about these guys coming in and using our paper records. So, that was good. It all worked out well. That was a nice social thing as well, because there were these periodic meetings of these groups, that was nice to go to, to kind of show the flag.

[Assistant] Did you ever meet any celebrities or important military individuals in your time?

[User] Well, when I was working at West Point, we went over to the Roosevelt Library for the dedication of their Eleanor Roosevelt wing. That day, Dag Hammarskjöld was there, and Nelson Rockefeller and Marian Anderson. That was the biggest day, with the biggest names. When I was at West Point, also, they were filming a movie, MacArthur, which Gregory Peck, and that was nice. I just missed Barbara Streisand there; "Funny Girl." She was across the river in Cold Spring, but she spent a lot of time at Trophy Point filming that movie, "Funny Girl." There was Jimmy Cagney at West Point. There was the Archbishop. Yeah, there was a lot of show business. A lot of big names at West Point; not so many here.

[Assistant] Jimmy Cagney. Wow.

[User] Yeah. He had an estate up the river from West Point, and he went to speak to the cadets, and I was in the back row, of course. But that was nice. The Yankees and the Mets used to come up to play the Army baseball team. I had to go up there and sit in the grandstand, and watch that. Those were historic events, there, for the Academy. But here, it was really much more business and less bigshots, more or less.

[Assistant] It sounds like a very interesting career, Stan. Thank you very much for your interview, and for your time with the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The name changed, let’s see, that would have been in 2009 when Charlie came on.

[Assistant] I was curious because I see it both ways and I never knew when it changed.

[User] I kid Charlie because I liked the short “External Relations,” but most people think “external relations” is public affairs. It was okay with me. Then, when we changed it to International and Interagency Relations, that almost covered everything, but it didn’t cover the fact that we had a division within our office for advisory councils. So it cut somebody out of the title, but it is actually a better description of what that office does, so I was fine with it.\n\n I’d laugh at Charlie because I went on every international trip, except the last one when I got sick there towards the end of my tour. I went on every international trip with Charlie, and he would always introduce me, but he’d never remember the name of our office. I’d say, “Thanks, Charlie. You’re the one that changed the name.”

[Assistant] He just changed it, he didn’t have to remember it.

[User] Exactly, exactly.

[Assistant] You became AA in 2003. As you mentioned, the Columbia accident happened earlier in that year. Talk about that time period after Columbia. Not only the accident and when that happened, but what involvement you had as far as explaining what had happened. Then we’ll talk after that about the Vision [for Space Exploration] that the President [George W. Bush] announced [in 2004].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I went to them all, as many as I could. Oh my gosh, I should have counted. I’ve probably been to 50 or 60 Space Shuttle launches. I didn’t miss very many over the years. Sometimes when the launches were delayed I’d have to leave, but I’d always go down there. It was one of the nice things that our office got to do, although it was hard work. We would send seven or eight of our desk officers down, and they would be escorts for the internationals. Sometimes we would have several hundred internationals down there at launch, and we would escort them. It would give our office a chance to go down and look at something real that we were doing.

[Assistant] It’s always nice to know, especially after all the negotiations, that it actually is happening.

[User] No kidding, that’s exactly right.

[Assistant] It’s pretty amazing seeing a launch. I imagine that for the international people that got to see it, it was pretty important for them to see, too.

[User] Oh, yes. We had lots of high-level internationals that would show up on occasion, too. They never forgot it, as you can imagine.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the Vision for Space Exploration. You talked a little bit about it in your 2007 interview, but I want to talk about what effect that had on the international partners. Mainly the announcement that the Shuttle Program was going to end at some point, because of course the agreements had the Shuttle being there to ferry things back and forth. Talk about how that affected what your area and what was going on with the partners.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my mistake on that was that I didn’t coordinate that enough with folks around NASA and get some input. It was supposed to be an internal email, of course. It had to do with cooperation. It sounded like we were cutting off all cooperation with Russia, which we were basically told to do at some level, unless it was impacting International Space Station. What we ended up doing, because of the political climate at the time and what I think we were being told to do by the Congress, was cutting back on a couple of projects that we had—I think we had one going on in science in maybe Siberia—until things settled down.\n\n The way it resolved itself was just time, because we didn’t have anything new on the books that we were getting ready to do anyways. There were a couple things that we were doing that were grandfathered, or okayed because they would have had a bigger impact on us than they would have had on Russia. I think it was all part of the Ukraine business as you mentioned. As I recall, I didn’t do anything other than to hunker down and let time go by. I think that might have ended up as my only time in NASA Watch [website/blog].

[Assistant] Yes, I saw it there.

[User] Other than that I remember it being—what year was that?

[Assistant] 2014.

[User] 2014. Charlie was just a good egg about it, didn’t give me a hard time about it at all. We just moved on.

[Assistant] I want to ask you about that period in 2009. You mentioned earlier about the Constellation cancelation, then it was announced that we were going to move more toward the commercial partners. Did your office have a part in those negotiations, as far as setting out how that would work with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You can see the wheels turning, kids are looking at this guy going, “Oh my God, if he can do it I can do it.” This is internationally. He talks to kids, and he’s probably doing it again already, domestically. But this was an international crowd. They’d come out, and we had 1,000 hanging out of windows in Ethiopia. We were in this little village in Nepal where 250 kids in their little orange uniforms came out and were showing him robots they built. It was just unbelievable.\n\n So in the midst of all this other important stuff that we’re doing—we’re on these trips for other reasons—he’s out as the U.S. ambassador of goodwill to the children of the world, basically.

[Assistant] Yes, and that’s wonderful. And an example of what you mentioned as one of the things you admired in leadership, was being yourself. I think that is definitely his personality.

[User] Exactly. For someone who has no idea, only knows Charlie by name, and that he’s an astronaut—then to meet him and to figure out that he’s this real person, it’s a real shock.

[Assistant] He’s so genuine, and doesn’t forget anyone he’s ever talked to, I don’t think.

[User] I’ll tell you a story about that. “Charlie, one of these days we’re going to be in an airport somewhere in the world and you’re not going to see somebody you know.” It finally happened in the Gobi Desert [China]. We were on a charter flight to fly up to the Jiuquan [Satellite] Launch [Center], first time a NASA group had ever gone to the Chinese human spaceflight launch site. We were in this airport and he didn’t know anybody there. We were the only airplane at the airport, so it was natural that he wouldn’t know anybody. I said, “Charlie, we’ve finally done it, there’s an airport where you’re not stopping to sign an autograph.”

[Assistant] Talk a minute about your retirement, and then your successor Al [Albert] Condes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. For someone who has no idea, only knows Charlie by name, and that he’s an astronaut—then to meet him and to figure out that he’s this real person, it’s a real shock.

[Assistant] He’s so genuine, and doesn’t forget anyone he’s ever talked to, I don’t think.

[User] I’ll tell you a story about that. “Charlie, one of these days we’re going to be in an airport somewhere in the world and you’re not going to see somebody you know.” It finally happened in the Gobi Desert [China]. We were on a charter flight to fly up to the Jiuquan [Satellite] Launch [Center], first time a NASA group had ever gone to the Chinese human spaceflight launch site. We were in this airport and he didn’t know anybody there. We were the only airplane at the airport, so it was natural that he wouldn’t know anybody. I said, “Charlie, we’ve finally done it, there’s an airport where you’re not stopping to sign an autograph.”

[Assistant] Talk a minute about your retirement, and then your successor Al [Albert] Condes.

[User] Thanks for asking about him.

[Assistant] You said you’d worked with him for quite a while. Is there any advice that you passed on to him when you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a senior in college at Penn State University, having fun attending classes and riding my bicycle through campus.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I used to eat lunch in the cafeteria and I found a table with new people. They were young Peace Corps volunteers in training. They were training at Penn State University. And they would always eat their lunch in the cafeteria the same time I did. And so I would eat with them and talk with them and chat with them and ask them what were they doing, where were they going, and were they excited? And they all were very excited and curious about what was going to be happening to them during the next couple of years. And I thought, wow, Peace Corps sounds really neat.

[Assistant] Good, let's stop there for a moment. What was your major in college?

[User] Okay. My major in college was general arts and letters. It was a very general, um, it was liberal arts with the name of the major was general arts and sciences, which meant I could pretty much take any classes that I wanted to, so I would take courses that sounded interesting to me, like ornithology and parasitology and different science courses. And it was a very general liberal arts major, so I didn't feel I was very prepared for anything.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, during the four years had you studied a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I used to eat lunch in the cafeteria and I found a table with new people. They were young Peace Corps volunteers in training. They were training at Penn State University. And they would always eat their lunch in the cafeteria the same time I did. And so I would eat with them and talk with them and chat with them and ask them what were they doing, where were they going, and were they excited? And they all were very excited and curious about what was going to be happening to them during the next couple of years. And I thought, wow, Peace Corps sounds really neat.

[Assistant] Good, let's stop there for a moment. What was your major in college?

[User] Okay. My major in college was general arts and letters. It was a very general, um, it was liberal arts with the name of the major was general arts and sciences, which meant I could pretty much take any classes that I wanted to, so I would take courses that sounded interesting to me, like ornithology and parasitology and different science courses. And it was a very general liberal arts major, so I didn't feel I was very prepared for anything.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, during the four years had you studied a foreign language?

[User] Yeah, I had always studied Spanish. I started Spanish, well, I started with Latin in seventh and eighth grade and then Spanish through high school and Spanish through college. And I also took a semester of Italian, so I liked languages a lot.

[Assistant] And during your four years of college, did you do any kind of volunteer work, any kind of travel, domestic, foreign?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. My major in college was general arts and letters. It was a very general, um, it was liberal arts with the name of the major was general arts and sciences, which meant I could pretty much take any classes that I wanted to, so I would take courses that sounded interesting to me, like ornithology and parasitology and different science courses. And it was a very general liberal arts major, so I didn't feel I was very prepared for anything.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, during the four years had you studied a foreign language?

[User] Yeah, I had always studied Spanish. I started Spanish, well, I started with Latin in seventh and eighth grade and then Spanish through high school and Spanish through college. And I also took a semester of Italian, so I liked languages a lot.

[Assistant] And during your four years of college, did you do any kind of volunteer work, any kind of travel, domestic, foreign?

[User] Yeah, I. No travel. And I didn't, I didn't travel at all because my family didn't have any money. Actually, in my sophomore year, I did travel. That's right. I got on a plane and came from Philadelphia out to California to visit a relative. And that was a really scary experience because I never been on a plane before and I'm sitting next to the wing looking out the window and I see fire coming out of it. And I say to the man next to me, I think the plane is on fire. I think the plane is on fire. And he looked out the window and he said, no, that's just, that's just the engine. I was so embarrassed. That was my first real travel was to California.

[Assistant] Did you do anything special in the summers while you're in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had always studied Spanish. I started Spanish, well, I started with Latin in seventh and eighth grade and then Spanish through high school and Spanish through college. And I also took a semester of Italian, so I liked languages a lot.

[Assistant] And during your four years of college, did you do any kind of volunteer work, any kind of travel, domestic, foreign?

[User] Yeah, I. No travel. And I didn't, I didn't travel at all because my family didn't have any money. Actually, in my sophomore year, I did travel. That's right. I got on a plane and came from Philadelphia out to California to visit a relative. And that was a really scary experience because I never been on a plane before and I'm sitting next to the wing looking out the window and I see fire coming out of it. And I say to the man next to me, I think the plane is on fire. I think the plane is on fire. And he looked out the window and he said, no, that's just, that's just the engine. I was so embarrassed. That was my first real travel was to California.

[Assistant] Did you do anything special in the summers while you're in college?

[User] Yeah. I got different jobs. I worked down in the, um, the Jersey Shore. I worked in a Dairy Queen, and I rode my bike from where a little apartment I rented. And I could ride my bike to the Dairy Queen to work and then ride back to the little apartment I rented. And it was a great job for me because I've always had a tremendous appetite and I could eat as much as I wanted in this Dairy Queen, which also sold hamburgers and hot dogs and a lot of things other than ice cream. So that was a fun job. I worked there several summers.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back even before college. Where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I got different jobs. I worked down in the, um, the Jersey Shore. I worked in a Dairy Queen, and I rode my bike from where a little apartment I rented. And I could ride my bike to the Dairy Queen to work and then ride back to the little apartment I rented. And it was a great job for me because I've always had a tremendous appetite and I could eat as much as I wanted in this Dairy Queen, which also sold hamburgers and hot dogs and a lot of things other than ice cream. So that was a fun job. I worked there several summers.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back even before college. Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up outside of Philadelphia in a small suburban town called Secane. It's kind of near Swarthmore, near Swarthmore College. I was raised from the time I was four years old until I graduated from high school in Quaker schools.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So from four years old to graduating from sixth grade was Lansdowne Friends School, and from seventh grade through 12th grade was Grand Central School in Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Was that because you were part of the Quaker church?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So from four years old to graduating from sixth grade was Lansdowne Friends School, and from seventh grade through 12th grade was Grand Central School in Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Was that because you were part of the Quaker church?

[User] No, we weren't. We weren't Quaker. But the Quaker schools are always known to be very good schools. And my parents and aunts who lived in the area didn't like the schools where we lived. And so my aunts would help my parents support the three of us, our education in a private school.

[Assistant] Any siblings?

[User] I have a brother and a sister, both older.

[Assistant] Okay. And during your high school years, any travel, any special volunteer work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we weren't. We weren't Quaker. But the Quaker schools are always known to be very good schools. And my parents and aunts who lived in the area didn't like the schools where we lived. And so my aunts would help my parents support the three of us, our education in a private school.

[Assistant] Any siblings?

[User] I have a brother and a sister, both older.

[Assistant] Okay. And during your high school years, any travel, any special volunteer work?

[User] No travel. I did, I did a lot of volunteer work. At a Quaker school, usually you have to do service projects. And so we, I chose to work at a hospital that was right very close to our school and served food to the patients. And whenever there was leftover food from, I would always finish it for them.

[Assistant] So you were very healthy teenager.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have a brother and a sister, both older.

[Assistant] Okay. And during your high school years, any travel, any special volunteer work?

[User] No travel. I did, I did a lot of volunteer work. At a Quaker school, usually you have to do service projects. And so we, I chose to work at a hospital that was right very close to our school and served food to the patients. And whenever there was leftover food from, I would always finish it for them.

[Assistant] So you were very healthy teenager.

[User] I was very healthy with a very healthy appetite.

[Assistant] Let's go forward now. When you're in college, other than meeting with the trainees, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No travel. I did, I did a lot of volunteer work. At a Quaker school, usually you have to do service projects. And so we, I chose to work at a hospital that was right very close to our school and served food to the patients. And whenever there was leftover food from, I would always finish it for them.

[Assistant] So you were very healthy teenager.

[User] I was very healthy with a very healthy appetite.

[Assistant] Let's go forward now. When you're in college, other than meeting with the trainees, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?

[User] No, that's the first time. That's really the first I knew of it. Meeting those trainees at lunch and just seeing their excitement and enthusiasm and sense of adventure, which just really blended with mine.

[Assistant] But as you were going into your senior year in college, what was the kind of career path you decided for yourself, or had you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very healthy with a very healthy appetite.

[Assistant] Let's go forward now. When you're in college, other than meeting with the trainees, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?

[User] No, that's the first time. That's really the first I knew of it. Meeting those trainees at lunch and just seeing their excitement and enthusiasm and sense of adventure, which just really blended with mine.

[Assistant] But as you were going into your senior year in college, what was the kind of career path you decided for yourself, or had you?

[User] Well, I was going to go to San Francisco and try and find some sort of a job.

[Assistant] This was after you got your degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was going to go to San Francisco and try and find some sort of a job.

[Assistant] This was after you got your degree?

[User] It was definitely not. It was definitely not going to be teaching because everybody had always told me that they thought I'd be a really good teacher.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I knew the one thing I wouldn't do was going to be a teacher. I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but I was going to go to San Francisco because that sounded really exciting. And being from Philadelphia it was a long way away. And I needed to go. I needed to experience the world.

[Assistant] Do you remember the process? You remember getting the application for the Peace Corps and filling it out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I knew the one thing I wouldn't do was going to be a teacher. I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but I was going to go to San Francisco because that sounded really exciting. And being from Philadelphia it was a long way away. And I needed to go. I needed to experience the world.

[Assistant] Do you remember the process? You remember getting the application for the Peace Corps and filling it out?

[User] I remember filling it out and it was a very long application and I remember that we had to have a lot of, um, people.

[Assistant] Six references.

[User] A lot of references. And I remember it taking a long, long time. And I remember when I did get accepted into the Peace Corps at the very, I think May, at the end of my senior year, it was May and I was so excited. I was, there was an article in the Penn State paper about me because I was the first student from Penn State University to go into the Peace Corps. And so they wrote an article and put it in the Penn State paper, and I was always very proud of that.

[Assistant] Do you recall in the application, there used to be a place where you could indicate a preference for assignment. I'd like to go to this area, I wouldn't. Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of references. And I remember it taking a long, long time. And I remember when I did get accepted into the Peace Corps at the very, I think May, at the end of my senior year, it was May and I was so excited. I was, there was an article in the Penn State paper about me because I was the first student from Penn State University to go into the Peace Corps. And so they wrote an article and put it in the Penn State paper, and I was always very proud of that.

[Assistant] Do you recall in the application, there used to be a place where you could indicate a preference for assignment. I'd like to go to this area, I wouldn't. Do you recall that?

[User] Yeah, I recall that area.

[Assistant] And?

[User] I put, I don't care. Anywhere, anywhere that's necessary that you need to send me is fine.

[Assistant] Do you recall if you indicated any proficiency in Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I recall that area.

[Assistant] And?

[User] I put, I don't care. Anywhere, anywhere that's necessary that you need to send me is fine.

[Assistant] Do you recall if you indicated any proficiency in Spanish?

[User] I probably did. I probably did because I was, I mean, I had taken Spanish for three years in high school and four years in college. So I'm sure I did.

[Assistant] And at the point you sent in the application, did you have any other career options? I mean, you didn't know it was a done deal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't really know what I was going to do. I didn't, you see, when I was going to. I graduated, I was to graduate in June. And my two aunts were going to give me a six week trip to Europe. And so my sister, who had graduated three years before me, my aunt, the two aunts, were going to give it to both of us. And so I was very looking forward to the six week trip in Europe after immediately after college graduation. And then I was going to figure out what I was going to do.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] You know, I was 21 years old. You know?

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] You kind of plan things day by day.

[Assistant] And when you filled out the application, had you discussed it with your family or your friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I was 21 years old. You know?

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] You kind of plan things day by day.

[Assistant] And when you filled out the application, had you discussed it with your family or your friends?

[User] I don't remember if I discussed it with my family. I'm sure I must have. I must have told them that I was sending in an application to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't off-hand remember their reaction initially?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You kind of plan things day by day.

[Assistant] And when you filled out the application, had you discussed it with your family or your friends?

[User] I don't remember if I discussed it with my family. I'm sure I must have. I must have told them that I was sending in an application to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't off-hand remember their reaction initially?

[User] I don't remember the reaction. I remember their reaction when I was accepted. Their reaction was they were very pleased for me because I was a very outdoor person all my life. I was never in the house. I was always outside, climbing trees, riding the horse next door, milking cows next door, shoveling manure out of the barn. I was always outside working with the farmer next door and did not like to be inside much at all. And they knew that I had a very strong sense of adventure and I think were very pleased.

[Assistant] In filling out the application, you had indicated that you grew up on a farm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember if I discussed it with my family. I'm sure I must have. I must have told them that I was sending in an application to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you don't off-hand remember their reaction initially?

[User] I don't remember the reaction. I remember their reaction when I was accepted. Their reaction was they were very pleased for me because I was a very outdoor person all my life. I was never in the house. I was always outside, climbing trees, riding the horse next door, milking cows next door, shoveling manure out of the barn. I was always outside working with the farmer next door and did not like to be inside much at all. And they knew that I had a very strong sense of adventure and I think were very pleased.

[Assistant] In filling out the application, you had indicated that you grew up on a farm?

[User] No, because I didn't. I grew up next to one.

[Assistant] Okay. All right. And you received an invitation to training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember the reaction. I remember their reaction when I was accepted. Their reaction was they were very pleased for me because I was a very outdoor person all my life. I was never in the house. I was always outside, climbing trees, riding the horse next door, milking cows next door, shoveling manure out of the barn. I was always outside working with the farmer next door and did not like to be inside much at all. And they knew that I had a very strong sense of adventure and I think were very pleased.

[Assistant] In filling out the application, you had indicated that you grew up on a farm?

[User] No, because I didn't. I grew up next to one.

[Assistant] Okay. All right. And you received an invitation to training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall what it said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall what it said?

[User] Yeah, I recall that it said your, you've been accepted for service in the country of Guatemala. And I remember thinking, Guatemala? Where's Guatemala? Where's the map? Before I can tell anybody, I need to know where Guatemala is. So it was, it was very exciting. And once I found out where Guatemala was, I was thrilled. It wasn't very far away. But I mean, that was okay. I kind of in my head, I thought I would be going somewhere further away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, but it was okay. It wasn't, it wasn't a disappointment. It was okay. Any place was going to be okay.

[Assistant] And was this before graduation or about the same time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I recall that it said your, you've been accepted for service in the country of Guatemala. And I remember thinking, Guatemala? Where's Guatemala? Where's the map? Before I can tell anybody, I need to know where Guatemala is. So it was, it was very exciting. And once I found out where Guatemala was, I was thrilled. It wasn't very far away. But I mean, that was okay. I kind of in my head, I thought I would be going somewhere further away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, but it was okay. It wasn't, it wasn't a disappointment. It was okay. Any place was going to be okay.

[Assistant] And was this before graduation or about the same time?

[User] No, it was about a month before graduation. I received, I received the information in May and I graduated in June.

[Assistant] And what was, where were you to report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Puerto Rico for training. We were going to go to Puerto Rico for training. We're going to train in Puerto Rico. And then we were going to go to Guatemala.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But what happened was there was an epidemic of dengue fever in Puerto Rico in August. So the day before we were to leave to go to Puerto Rico, we received a cable.

[Assistant] Telegram.

[User] A telegram that said, do not go to Puerto Rico, epidemic dengue fever, wait for further instructions.

[Assistant] And your reaction at that point?