[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, we wouldn't live here if we hadn't done Peace Corps. I mean, there's no way. And, you know, I think we've sacrificed a lot in career opportunities to live here. But this has been where we've wanted to be and we've loved it. And it's, it's because of Peace Corps. I mean, we wouldn't have done this.

[Assistant] But it's interesting. You make genuine life choices and career choices.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] I think many people don't. They sort of.

[User] Yeah, I think that's true. And Peace Corps was, well, for me, the first choice was to go to Washington. I mean, this was really a break. And once I did that, it was like, you know what? I'm going to keep going.

[Assistant] Talk briefly about your daughter's joining the Peace Corps and the role you might have played.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think that's true. And Peace Corps was, well, for me, the first choice was to go to Washington. I mean, this was really a break. And once I did that, it was like, you know what? I'm going to keep going.

[Assistant] Talk briefly about your daughter's joining the Peace Corps and the role you might have played.

[User] Okay. Well, of course, she grew up with Peace Corps stories and Peace Corps friends. I mean, you know, we have lots of people who visit us. And actually for eight years, when from the time Tana was about six months old until she was almost nine, Jim was the director of a group home for children, and he advertised in the Peace Corps employment bulletin. So he hired in a lot of returned volunteers. And so she was constantly surrounded by returned volunteers. And then when she was 15, we had a reunion of our group, to which 104 people came.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And not all volunteers. It was probably, I don't know, maybe 40 who were actually from the program. And it was just a blast, three days at a cabin in the mountains. And that convinced her. She said, these are the coolest people I've ever met. I've got to be a Peace Corps volunteer. It's like, well.

[Assistant] How old was she?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And not all volunteers. It was probably, I don't know, maybe 40 who were actually from the program. And it was just a blast, three days at a cabin in the mountains. And that convinced her. She said, these are the coolest people I've ever met. I've got to be a Peace Corps volunteer. It's like, well.

[Assistant] How old was she?

[User] Fifteen. Okay. We'll see. And she really stuck with that and then worked for one year in California after graduating from college and decided that's what she wanted to do. And she called at 6:00 one morning from California. She said, Mom, they just called from Washington. They want me to go to Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Whoa.

[Assistant] And then once she got there as a volunteer, you and Jim had a chance, an opportunity to go and visit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fifteen. Okay. We'll see. And she really stuck with that and then worked for one year in California after graduating from college and decided that's what she wanted to do. And she called at 6:00 one morning from California. She said, Mom, they just called from Washington. They want me to go to Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Whoa.

[Assistant] And then once she got there as a volunteer, you and Jim had a chance, an opportunity to go and visit?

[User] Yeah, a year later we went to visit her and, um.

[Assistant] And you included a trip to Kenya then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, a year later we went to visit her and, um.

[Assistant] And you included a trip to Kenya then?

[User] Right. Trip back to Kenya. We, um, all four of us went to, or the three of us went to Malawi to visit Tana, where we spent a month in her village and then a week backpacking in the highlands. And then all flew up to Kenya.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we were reunited with these students because of one student who we remained close to. We had actually lost touch with him. And he, he was very, very smart. We knew he'd do well, but he went on to the university in Nairobi. He got a master's in Nairobi and was working in the university teaching, and a guest professor from the University of Indiana came to Nairobi and encouraged him to go on for his PhD. And so when he wrote to this man and said.

[Assistant] What's his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, um, anyway. He met us in Nairobi. And we stayed at his home. He had, he had retired from the university. And, um, no, when he went back after he got his PhD, he became president or principal or whatever was called of one of the colleges up country.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Did that at a couple of different ones and then retired to write. And built a beautiful home up near our school.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And his wife was there, but he had been asked by the government to start this Higher Education Student Loan Board in Nairobi. And so he came back and so he was living there in a government supplied house where we stayed with him. And living with him were many young men from the Kuria tribe who he was mentoring. It was so great. It was just so much fun.

[Assistant] So he, he, he was then your guide or escort back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did that at a couple of different ones and then retired to write. And built a beautiful home up near our school.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And his wife was there, but he had been asked by the government to start this Higher Education Student Loan Board in Nairobi. And so he came back and so he was living there in a government supplied house where we stayed with him. And living with him were many young men from the Kuria tribe who he was mentoring. It was so great. It was just so much fun.

[Assistant] So he, he, he was then your guide or escort back?

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. And he took us to, we took his driver and car and went back to the school. And actually it was on my 51st birthday. It was so wonderful. And a big rainbow. There was a huge rainstorm and the rainbow. But I mean, it was like Hollywood, couldn't have been orchestrated better.

[Assistant] But through the years you haven't had much, you haven't maintained much contact with Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still an adventure that captured people, yes.

[Assistant] Still an adventure.

[User] It really was, and on that flight, it became not just an American adventure, which it might have been before that, but it became a kind of a human-race adventure, because they just became three human beings that were in pretty serious peril, and maybe that's a good way to put it. It became an adventure for the human race at that point, as opposed to just a national adventure, which it might have had a stronger flavor of, up till that time.

[Assistant] And everybody was willing to give all the support they could.

[User] Yes. I mean, faxes came in from all around the world, offering this or offering that, and, you know, most of it would be hard to accept and integrate into anything, but the good will with which those requests were made is what really flowed through the people in the Control Center. They were aware of it, could talk about it, and so on.

[Assistant] That's great. Very good system to help get through it. And get through it, you did, and successfully. What about afterwards? You mentioned how you debriefed afterwards and you looked at "We really did the right thing here, we did this all correct," but did you change the way you would do anything for the future missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. It did. And we're very humble about what we might accomplish and arriving in Chile, of course, in the climate of those years, you know, we were under suspicion. There had been, you know, a couple of weeks after our arrival in Chile, there had been sort of an incident at our training site where local political party and newspaper person, I believe, had sort of snuck onto the premises and taken some pictures or just whatever wrote a story about the school of spies that was in the Lincoln out of the my pool where we were training. And so from then on, we were very sort of on guard for when people would say, well, are you American? And so we're very careful about anyone talking to us about that sort of thing. And of course, that tapered off as we became involved at our regular site and became just, you know, warm friends with lots of different people.

[Assistant] You know, let's go back just a little. How did you hear about the Peace Corps? Was that through your husband or did you have all that?

[User] I had a cousin who was actually in the first Peace Corps group and he went to Ghana in, I believe, 1960, and actually he met his wife there. She was, I think, another volunteer in another site or whatever. So I had heard about it and it was always interesting, something that he had done. I never envisioned myself doing it, but certainly the adventure was something that was interesting.

[Assistant] Ok, now kind of describe the process and the timing of the journey. You finish college and then?

[User] Well, in about January of our senior year, we talked to a recruiter and started filling out papers and taking the medical exams and things like that. And they said the training is going to be in Chile. So we, you know, two weeks after we got married, we were three days in Washington, D.C., and then went off to Santiago, which was the middle of winter there, not a good time of the year to go to Chile. And so we just jumped in with both feet, you know?

[Assistant] Now, where did you go to school? The college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a cousin who was actually in the first Peace Corps group and he went to Ghana in, I believe, 1960, and actually he met his wife there. She was, I think, another volunteer in another site or whatever. So I had heard about it and it was always interesting, something that he had done. I never envisioned myself doing it, but certainly the adventure was something that was interesting.

[Assistant] Ok, now kind of describe the process and the timing of the journey. You finish college and then?

[User] Well, in about January of our senior year, we talked to a recruiter and started filling out papers and taking the medical exams and things like that. And they said the training is going to be in Chile. So we, you know, two weeks after we got married, we were three days in Washington, D.C., and then went off to Santiago, which was the middle of winter there, not a good time of the year to go to Chile. And so we just jumped in with both feet, you know?

[Assistant] Now, where did you go to school? The college?

[User] I was at University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, for my last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so that's where you came out of university. Okay. Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in about January of our senior year, we talked to a recruiter and started filling out papers and taking the medical exams and things like that. And they said the training is going to be in Chile. So we, you know, two weeks after we got married, we were three days in Washington, D.C., and then went off to Santiago, which was the middle of winter there, not a good time of the year to go to Chile. And so we just jumped in with both feet, you know?

[Assistant] Now, where did you go to school? The college?

[User] I was at University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, for my last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so that's where you came out of university. Okay. Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?

[User] We were focused on South America. We had done some study of South America. I had just studied four years of French, so I thought, well, we'll see. But I was pretty clear we weren't going to a French country, and Daniel had, my husband, had taken some Spanish, but we were really wanting to do something in South America, or Central America.

[Assistant] So you expressed that desire when you applied and it worked out. That's good. Ok, what were your friends' and families' reactions when you were accepted? You know, were there any hesitation or reservation on your part or their part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, for my last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so that's where you came out of university. Okay. Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?

[User] We were focused on South America. We had done some study of South America. I had just studied four years of French, so I thought, well, we'll see. But I was pretty clear we weren't going to a French country, and Daniel had, my husband, had taken some Spanish, but we were really wanting to do something in South America, or Central America.

[Assistant] So you expressed that desire when you applied and it worked out. That's good. Ok, what were your friends' and families' reactions when you were accepted? You know, were there any hesitation or reservation on your part or their part?

[User] I think for the most part, people were happy for us that it sounded like a neat thing to do. I'm not sure my mom was particularly joyful about me going off so far. But she didn't really make that known. You know, she was good about it. So it wasn't a conflict.

[Assistant] Okay, well, it's good. Now what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, when you're 22, you know, there's not much to prepare. You're pretty much a rolling stone at that point, you know, no property, no possessions to speak of. So it was a good time, you know? And as you know, looking back at this point, it was just a wonderful time to go and have fun.

[Assistant] Ok, now are you say your training was all in Chile then?

[User] Absolutely. They had done a little testing, I think, for three days in Washington, D.C. Of course, we're all very nervous. We don't want to be bumped out. And then they shipped us down there on a very slow plane to, 15 hours to get from here to Santiago. We stopped at every major city. We were so sick by the time we got there, oh my gosh.

[Assistant] Now how many were there in your group?

[User] We are a group of, it was like 11 couples.

[Assistant] So it was all couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. They had done a little testing, I think, for three days in Washington, D.C. Of course, we're all very nervous. We don't want to be bumped out. And then they shipped us down there on a very slow plane to, 15 hours to get from here to Santiago. We stopped at every major city. We were so sick by the time we got there, oh my gosh.

[Assistant] Now how many were there in your group?

[User] We are a group of, it was like 11 couples.

[Assistant] So it was all couples?

[User] And seven single men who were caught who were going to preparing to work in the forests. They were forest management. And so we're, you know, roughly 30 people.

[Assistant] Oh okay. Can you tell me something about like the faculty, the syllabus, technical studies, reaction to the other trainings that you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are a group of, it was like 11 couples.

[Assistant] So it was all couples?

[User] And seven single men who were caught who were going to preparing to work in the forests. They were forest management. And so we're, you know, roughly 30 people.

[Assistant] Oh okay. Can you tell me something about like the faculty, the syllabus, technical studies, reaction to the other trainings that you have?

[User] It was an immersion training experience and they had a man from Spain running the program, and he had hired mostly providores, young, not necessarily men, young men, but men from the working class of Chile to be our teachers. And so we were learning, you know, we had no books, we were just learning from their mouths to our mouths. And of course, we were divided into groups where if you had previous language experience and you haven't and my language experience had not been in Spanish, so I was in a different group than my husband. So it was interesting. So you found yourself mostly getting to know the people who were in your same language group. And of course, you're quite limited. You know, they're really asking us to speak Spanish all the time. So it would, you know, in the bathroom and stuff, you would speak English because of course, you're dealing with all sorts of adjustments intestinally to the food, which was sort of developed at. My husband talks about a camaraderie in the bathroom in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] Okay. What was your reaction to the other trainees or? I guess you said that the people you knew most were the ones in your language group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was no stamina sorts of training. We were not preparing for a physical. We weren't killing chickens, you know? We were going to towns and city. I was in a city of three million people, albeit on the very edges. So that sort of thing wasn't present, and what they had said was, you know, they had to, they had pretty much said there is no selection. You know, we brought you here. You know, you are all in as far as we're concerned. So we didn't have that overlay of not making it. Except, you know, I think, you know, our own personal cautiousness about, you know. They could send you home. Watch your P's and Q's. That sort of thing.

[Assistant] Ok. Did the training program prepare you and was it useful for your Peace Corps service?

[User] The training was mostly the language program for me. They had some other sorts of things. The truth was they really did not know what the women, you know, us what 11 or 12, 11 women were going to be doing. So, you know, they had a little smattering of cooking and maybe talked about the mothers’ groups or. I can't remember the other things they did, but they were pretty insignificant in terms of the training for that. The men's training was different, you know, they took them out to sites and they talked about the different, you know, laying the plumbing. And the electrical work and what was all involved, so that was more focused. It's a good question. If I scratched my head, would I be able to think of what we do in these hearings when they were doing all that stuff?

[Assistant] So a lot of it was language then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What about your initial entry into the country and your reaction to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training was mostly the language program for me. They had some other sorts of things. The truth was they really did not know what the women, you know, us what 11 or 12, 11 women were going to be doing. So, you know, they had a little smattering of cooking and maybe talked about the mothers’ groups or. I can't remember the other things they did, but they were pretty insignificant in terms of the training for that. The men's training was different, you know, they took them out to sites and they talked about the different, you know, laying the plumbing. And the electrical work and what was all involved, so that was more focused. It's a good question. If I scratched my head, would I be able to think of what we do in these hearings when they were doing all that stuff?

[Assistant] So a lot of it was language then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What about your initial entry into the country and your reaction to it?

[User] Well, my ignorance was just like, I had arrived there and I thought, this looks like Europe. Not that I'd been to Europe, but I thought it was all going to look like northern Mexico. I just was just astonished. It was like a major city, you know?

[Assistant] Now you went where? Did you go to Santiago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What about your initial entry into the country and your reaction to it?

[User] Well, my ignorance was just like, I had arrived there and I thought, this looks like Europe. Not that I'd been to Europe, but I thought it was all going to look like northern Mexico. I just was just astonished. It was like a major city, you know?

[Assistant] Now you went where? Did you go to Santiago?

[User] Yes. We all flew into Santiago, and then you go to your other places. So it was, you know, and it was, oh, the middle of winter. It was dark. It was rainy. You know, no central heating, so those sorts of comforts were not there. But you know that, I think I was. It was pleasant to see that it wasn't, you know, northern Mexico, but that was good. I just had to adjust to the weather.

[Assistant] Let's see now. So once you got there, you were sent to a site.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We all flew into Santiago, and then you go to your other places. So it was, you know, and it was, oh, the middle of winter. It was dark. It was rainy. You know, no central heating, so those sorts of comforts were not there. But you know that, I think I was. It was pleasant to see that it wasn't, you know, northern Mexico, but that was good. I just had to adjust to the weather.

[Assistant] Let's see now. So once you got there, you were sent to a site.

[User] Well, so we had the three months of training which was a good thing, and the weather eventually warmed up. And we have said, you know, we've had this experience that, you know, the folks here that think we're spies and we do not want to be sent to a site, you know, with one mark against us. So please be sure that the folks want us. So in time to go to the sites, we packed up our stuff, somebody is taking us out on a truck. Got to the site. The social worker at the site said, what's this about? And they said, well, you know, you said you wanted to, you know, you voted to have a social worker. Not social worker, I'm sorry, Peace Corps couple. And she said, yes, we did vote, but we voted not to have them. That was just rankled us and we weren't real tickled with the folks of the Peace Corps office. We said, because he had said something like, well, they're certainly going to accept you. You know, we can make them accept you. Oh, sorry. No, thank you. We don't want them to make our house accept us. And so apparently somebody knew some other project head who said, oh yeah, I'd love to have another pair of hands over here. And then we got directed to another site.

[Assistant] Ok, now where did the training actually take place?

[User] We started our training in a place called Rinconada de Maipú, which was a Chilean technical school.

[Assistant] Is it in Santiago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We started our training in a place called Rinconada de Maipú, which was a Chilean technical school.

[Assistant] Is it in Santiago?

[User] It's in like a little suburb of Santiago, which was, you know, out the door. There was, you know, sheep and goats, and we could take lovely walks in the country. It was neat. I don't know if it was politically motivated or the fact that they want give him this very good food to eat, but after several weeks, we got moved to a like a retreat house and then we spent the next two months there. And so, you know, we had basic things and, you know, meals, which, you know, we don't always recognize, but it was a good experience. Always, always good wine.

[Assistant] Uh, let's see. Okay, now when you went out to your sites, was there more? Was there just like one couple at each site pretty much?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And it was rural or city or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's in like a little suburb of Santiago, which was, you know, out the door. There was, you know, sheep and goats, and we could take lovely walks in the country. It was neat. I don't know if it was politically motivated or the fact that they want give him this very good food to eat, but after several weeks, we got moved to a like a retreat house and then we spent the next two months there. And so, you know, we had basic things and, you know, meals, which, you know, we don't always recognize, but it was a good experience. Always, always good wine.

[Assistant] Uh, let's see. Okay, now when you went out to your sites, was there more? Was there just like one couple at each site pretty much?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And it was rural or city or?

[User] Well, we're talking about, you know, building on the edges of towns. So where we were on the outskirts of Santiago, where it was sort of pushing up against the lovely hills and. It's probably like a suburb, you know? And then shortly after we went there, there was in the next bit of land, the next section of land, they had what was called a toma de terreno, where a group of people organized themselves. Walked in under the, holding the Chilean flag and set up housing, you know, just tents and whatever and sort of said, this land is not used. We are people that need housing and they have been nicely organized. And know the local leadership knows eventually these people are going to be voters. So he's not necessarily interested in booting them out. So they were so nicely organized. They were able to get some services and, you know, like the plumbing and electrical and whatever the basic services need. To get in there even before our housing establishment did, just because they were so well organized.

[Assistant] So these people wanted to do this and then they got you kind of help them out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And it was rural or city or?

[User] Well, we're talking about, you know, building on the edges of towns. So where we were on the outskirts of Santiago, where it was sort of pushing up against the lovely hills and. It's probably like a suburb, you know? And then shortly after we went there, there was in the next bit of land, the next section of land, they had what was called a toma de terreno, where a group of people organized themselves. Walked in under the, holding the Chilean flag and set up housing, you know, just tents and whatever and sort of said, this land is not used. We are people that need housing and they have been nicely organized. And know the local leadership knows eventually these people are going to be voters. So he's not necessarily interested in booting them out. So they were so nicely organized. They were able to get some services and, you know, like the plumbing and electrical and whatever the basic services need. To get in there even before our housing establishment did, just because they were so well organized.

[Assistant] So these people wanted to do this and then they got you kind of help them out?

[User] Well, now, I wasn't around for the beginnings of our project. Our project was sort of well underway when we got there. We had had a, you know, a Peace Corps volunteer there before us. And so, um, and I don't know the circumstances at which it might have been more well more official and not a toma. Toma means take. So it was just a, you know, politically just so interesting to see how it was done. They were in the middle of, you know, these are our work crews. These are the hours you come, you have to volunteer so many hours a week in order to sort of get to your house.

[Assistant] Now, was it just the people who were going to live in the house that volunteered to work or did? Were there other teams that came in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, now, I wasn't around for the beginnings of our project. Our project was sort of well underway when we got there. We had had a, you know, a Peace Corps volunteer there before us. And so, um, and I don't know the circumstances at which it might have been more well more official and not a toma. Toma means take. So it was just a, you know, politically just so interesting to see how it was done. They were in the middle of, you know, these are our work crews. These are the hours you come, you have to volunteer so many hours a week in order to sort of get to your house.

[Assistant] Now, was it just the people who were going to live in the house that volunteered to work or did? Were there other teams that came in?

[User] It was most of the people are going to volunteer to work, but you could you could hustle up somebody to do it, like if you have a, you know, a widow and a child, she wants to find someone who can do her portions for her. Or she may be, you know, the women did some of the work and I know. And then even some of the finishing stuff that a man might do in its own house. They had asked my husband if he would go help this widow with her this or that. You know, getting it finished up.

[Assistant] So were all the houses pretty much the same kind?

[User] Yeah. And then depending upon your, what you could afford, you could outfit them with the little comforts or, you know, little extra woodwork or and then, you know, who was the first one to get a couch or something like that because those were all luxury items. You know, it was beds and toilets and just the basic things.

[Assistant] So what about your assignment? Were there any, you know, specifics of the job that you were assigned to or what were the living conditions, typical day, and so on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were fortunate in that we were, you know, studying the language. So they knew it'd be helpful to us later on, especially in my area of social work. I, not having any other formal Spanish training, went into the city and took a language class, so I was able to write a little bit. And I thought we were doing fine. We always thought the real test was when one day we woke up and said, oh I understand what they're saying on the radio now. It's a good thing.

[Assistant] Now, did you and Dan speak just Spanish when you were alone?

[User] Absolutely not. I think that would have been the fast road to divorce.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, you had to take your comfort where you could.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, I know with us, you know, in our training program, we could always talk to the other volunteers. And, you know, it wasn't until I got in the village when, you know, well, I had another volunteer there. But, you know, in order to communicate, you had to do the language. It took me about six, I had a headache every night for like six months.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely not. I think that would have been the fast road to divorce.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, you had to take your comfort where you could.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, I know with us, you know, in our training program, we could always talk to the other volunteers. And, you know, it wasn't until I got in the village when, you know, well, I had another volunteer there. But, you know, in order to communicate, you had to do the language. It took me about six, I had a headache every night for like six months.

[User] Oh my gosh. Challenging. I think my ignorance gotten through because I was, people were so accepting. And as my husband said, he would just look at me because, you know, I was very new with this language and he'd say, she's pretty happy and she thinks she's getting over to them. But you know, I'm not going to step on her parade. But then occasionally later he pulled me aside and say, you know, you got to say it this way if you really want him to understand it.

[Assistant] What about your uh, did you have much contact with the Peace Corps staff there at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, you had to take your comfort where you could.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, I know with us, you know, in our training program, we could always talk to the other volunteers. And, you know, it wasn't until I got in the village when, you know, well, I had another volunteer there. But, you know, in order to communicate, you had to do the language. It took me about six, I had a headache every night for like six months.

[User] Oh my gosh. Challenging. I think my ignorance gotten through because I was, people were so accepting. And as my husband said, he would just look at me because, you know, I was very new with this language and he'd say, she's pretty happy and she thinks she's getting over to them. But you know, I'm not going to step on her parade. But then occasionally later he pulled me aside and say, you know, you got to say it this way if you really want him to understand it.

[Assistant] What about your uh, did you have much contact with the Peace Corps staff there at all?

[User] You know, we came in and connected with them, and occasionally they'd have a party. They had American holiday parties and things like that and connect with others. The Peace Corps staff, it was good to talk to them. I felt like we had really good medical back up. You know, we would get shots and this and that. So that was a good thing. Besides that blip at the beginning of our program, when they sent us someplace where they weren't wanted, but things went. Things went well, we felt a warmth there and being in the major city, you know, they were fairly available to us.

[Assistant] So did they come out to see you or like supervisors or whatever?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh my gosh. Challenging. I think my ignorance gotten through because I was, people were so accepting. And as my husband said, he would just look at me because, you know, I was very new with this language and he'd say, she's pretty happy and she thinks she's getting over to them. But you know, I'm not going to step on her parade. But then occasionally later he pulled me aside and say, you know, you got to say it this way if you really want him to understand it.

[Assistant] What about your uh, did you have much contact with the Peace Corps staff there at all?

[User] You know, we came in and connected with them, and occasionally they'd have a party. They had American holiday parties and things like that and connect with others. The Peace Corps staff, it was good to talk to them. I felt like we had really good medical back up. You know, we would get shots and this and that. So that was a good thing. Besides that blip at the beginning of our program, when they sent us someplace where they weren't wanted, but things went. Things went well, we felt a warmth there and being in the major city, you know, they were fairly available to us.

[Assistant] So did they come out to see you or like supervisors or whatever?

[User] One time one of them came out for dinner.

[Assistant] OK. What about your work time versus your leisure time? If you could maybe describe how that worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we came in and connected with them, and occasionally they'd have a party. They had American holiday parties and things like that and connect with others. The Peace Corps staff, it was good to talk to them. I felt like we had really good medical back up. You know, we would get shots and this and that. So that was a good thing. Besides that blip at the beginning of our program, when they sent us someplace where they weren't wanted, but things went. Things went well, we felt a warmth there and being in the major city, you know, they were fairly available to us.

[Assistant] So did they come out to see you or like supervisors or whatever?

[User] One time one of them came out for dinner.

[Assistant] OK. What about your work time versus your leisure time? If you could maybe describe how that worked.

[User] The construction programs was sort of an after work program, so Daniel went to work maybe at 3:00 in the afternoon and worked till dark because they were building houses.

[Assistant] So most of the people had jobs during the day and then they started that after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One time one of them came out for dinner.

[Assistant] OK. What about your work time versus your leisure time? If you could maybe describe how that worked.

[User] The construction programs was sort of an after work program, so Daniel went to work maybe at 3:00 in the afternoon and worked till dark because they were building houses.

[Assistant] So most of the people had jobs during the day and then they started that after?

[User] Yes. And I was relating more to the women and children, so my things I would do during the day. I would have classes. At one point I had a cooking class for some young girls. At another point, I had volunteered to work with the Estefan, if I would help with some vaccination things, they were doing oral vaccine in schools and this was with a couple of, I believe, nurses from that public health department so that there was another little experience and actually what it was, was more of a peek into the middle class in Chile for me, just seeing what these women were talking about. We'd also helped a little bit in a local school in the sort of the country area, you know, their school had been damaged by the earthquake in 1960 and still they hadn't sent enough help there to repair it. But they were still using it, and we had helped to get some supplies for this school and, you know, did sort of a visiting teacher of English for a day or so. But boy, seeing that school and the little heat they had for the kids and the enthusiasm of the teacher the children. It was heartening to see that.

[Assistant] Well, what was the weather like there? Was it pretty much like it is here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, so it's chilly. Santiago, which is about the same latitude as San Francisco. So, you know, it's a cold, rainy winter and it's a pleasant summer, although it would get quite hot in the summer because we weren't but maybe two hundred kilometers but maybe close to a hundred miles from the sea, so we weren't like warmed by the sea, but the summers would get hot. To heat themselves in winter, they would have these. They would get heating fuel in a big, huge five, 10-gallon thing and hook it up, you know, if they could afford it to a heater. And you know, the fumes from this were not good, so they really had to use them sparingly. And so you sort of waited for the sun to come up and when the folks could, a lot of times they would work by a sunny window or maybe even in their backyard, they'd sit in the sun.

[Assistant] Did they use wood fire at all?

[User] Yep, they would. Well, a lot of them had, most of them had stoves. Sometimes they've had more in the country. A little charcoal things that, you know, that was the smell you could smell going through the roads. And if you bought, you know, blankets from the country, you know they would have the smell of this charcoal fire.

[Assistant] What about your leisure time, how was that spent?

[User] We did a lot of reading, a lot of reading.

[Assistant] Did you have a Peace Corps trunk of books or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, they would. Well, a lot of them had, most of them had stoves. Sometimes they've had more in the country. A little charcoal things that, you know, that was the smell you could smell going through the roads. And if you bought, you know, blankets from the country, you know they would have the smell of this charcoal fire.

[Assistant] What about your leisure time, how was that spent?

[User] We did a lot of reading, a lot of reading.

[Assistant] Did you have a Peace Corps trunk of books or something?

[User] No, but you know, we could take books out of the central office and bring them back. That was nice. Probably my biggest reading experience. And, you know, and once we'd go into town on our day off on Mondays, we'd go into town and look around. Occasionally we'd go sneak up, we'd go off to a movie now. Let's try the movie and so that meant bolting our dinner, catching the bus, getting downtown, you know, riding a downtown traffic on our feet, you know, running to this. But you know, but a lot of the movies were in English with Spanish subtitles, so that's just speaking our language. But I remember early on when we were in training, it was like that first weekend off, we went into town to a movie and was just like, oh my gosh, this movie was so comforting, to watch a movie in English, that you just didn't want to leave the theater and go back to all that Spanish.

[Assistant] Now you say you only got one day off a week. So does that mean that, like Dan was scheduled to work every day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did a lot of reading, a lot of reading.

[Assistant] Did you have a Peace Corps trunk of books or something?

[User] No, but you know, we could take books out of the central office and bring them back. That was nice. Probably my biggest reading experience. And, you know, and once we'd go into town on our day off on Mondays, we'd go into town and look around. Occasionally we'd go sneak up, we'd go off to a movie now. Let's try the movie and so that meant bolting our dinner, catching the bus, getting downtown, you know, riding a downtown traffic on our feet, you know, running to this. But you know, but a lot of the movies were in English with Spanish subtitles, so that's just speaking our language. But I remember early on when we were in training, it was like that first weekend off, we went into town to a movie and was just like, oh my gosh, this movie was so comforting, to watch a movie in English, that you just didn't want to leave the theater and go back to all that Spanish.

[Assistant] Now you say you only got one day off a week. So does that mean that, like Dan was scheduled to work every day?

[User] No, probably not. We didn't work Sundays, and so we were probably home and around the house or. You know, I think Saturdays, they maybe worked till noon or something. Because we did take weekend trips to visit other Peace Corps folks in other small towns, which was interesting because that just hearing how sort of the same training and the same background interpreted into a totally different experience. So we had some just lovely weekend trips, nice, you know, bus system we could get on a bus and get off to a different places.

[Assistant] But he was on a regular schedule pretty much to work like from certain hour to a certain hour.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but you know, we could take books out of the central office and bring them back. That was nice. Probably my biggest reading experience. And, you know, and once we'd go into town on our day off on Mondays, we'd go into town and look around. Occasionally we'd go sneak up, we'd go off to a movie now. Let's try the movie and so that meant bolting our dinner, catching the bus, getting downtown, you know, riding a downtown traffic on our feet, you know, running to this. But you know, but a lot of the movies were in English with Spanish subtitles, so that's just speaking our language. But I remember early on when we were in training, it was like that first weekend off, we went into town to a movie and was just like, oh my gosh, this movie was so comforting, to watch a movie in English, that you just didn't want to leave the theater and go back to all that Spanish.

[Assistant] Now you say you only got one day off a week. So does that mean that, like Dan was scheduled to work every day?

[User] No, probably not. We didn't work Sundays, and so we were probably home and around the house or. You know, I think Saturdays, they maybe worked till noon or something. Because we did take weekend trips to visit other Peace Corps folks in other small towns, which was interesting because that just hearing how sort of the same training and the same background interpreted into a totally different experience. So we had some just lovely weekend trips, nice, you know, bus system we could get on a bus and get off to a different places.

[Assistant] But he was on a regular schedule pretty much to work like from certain hour to a certain hour.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. That doesn't seem to happen very much. At least it didn't with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, probably not. We didn't work Sundays, and so we were probably home and around the house or. You know, I think Saturdays, they maybe worked till noon or something. Because we did take weekend trips to visit other Peace Corps folks in other small towns, which was interesting because that just hearing how sort of the same training and the same background interpreted into a totally different experience. So we had some just lovely weekend trips, nice, you know, bus system we could get on a bus and get off to a different places.

[Assistant] But he was on a regular schedule pretty much to work like from certain hour to a certain hour.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. That doesn't seem to happen very much. At least it didn't with us.

[User] Well, see the other the other instructors would come from other places and, you know, gather, have the evening cup of coffee or. And then decide what was going on there.

[Assistant] Ok. How did your life and work change over the months when you started out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. That doesn't seem to happen very much. At least it didn't with us.

[User] Well, see the other the other instructors would come from other places and, you know, gather, have the evening cup of coffee or. And then decide what was going on there.

[Assistant] Ok. How did your life and work change over the months when you started out?

[User] Um, I think it just became more involved and connected with more folks. Daniel got involved in a sort of a young men's group he organized. The government had set up national work days to clean up the area. He said, well, we can do that here, you know, which meant he's the one that had to get the connection with the, you know, the municipal truck was going to come and then you do this and this. And then the morning of the event, you know, nobody's anywhere to be found, would go knocking on doors. Are you coming, are you coming? And then by the end of the day, everyone was so proud that they had done this to help their community. It was just basic community organizing.

[Assistant] Ok, what about like at the end of the first year, what were some of the notable events and reflections looking back, joys and woes, unexpected things, relationships?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, see the other the other instructors would come from other places and, you know, gather, have the evening cup of coffee or. And then decide what was going on there.

[Assistant] Ok. How did your life and work change over the months when you started out?

[User] Um, I think it just became more involved and connected with more folks. Daniel got involved in a sort of a young men's group he organized. The government had set up national work days to clean up the area. He said, well, we can do that here, you know, which meant he's the one that had to get the connection with the, you know, the municipal truck was going to come and then you do this and this. And then the morning of the event, you know, nobody's anywhere to be found, would go knocking on doors. Are you coming, are you coming? And then by the end of the day, everyone was so proud that they had done this to help their community. It was just basic community organizing.

[Assistant] Ok, what about like at the end of the first year, what were some of the notable events and reflections looking back, joys and woes, unexpected things, relationships?

[User] As I look back, I just look at, you know, the strangeness and sort of the otherness that we felt in the beginning and then, you know, as we got comfortable there, you know, whereas they were just other and then us. By the time you are there a while, it's oh, well, here's my friend, and here's the worrisome guy, and here's the jovial guy. Here's the guy who is struggling with alcoholism. And here's the woman who just takes care of everybody. You know, they had become people, individuals to us, and that was wonderful. And we also at the end of the first year, we were delighted to hear that there was, we had some weeks off, and then we could plan a vacation. It was wonderful to sort of go visit other countries in South America.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What about health problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we just thought we'd go back to graduate school. Yeah, so that was pretty. And apparently I had done some writing. That went quite smoothly, just to slip back into that.

[Assistant] Did you have anybody come and visit you at all?

[User] A couple. It was, strangely enough, the Republican governor at the time did some sort of a trade mission, and some mother and father of a former boyfriend of mine was headed down there. So they came and stayed at the fancy hotel downtown and came out to the población and invite us downtown to eat with them. So that was fun. Other times when the volunteers would be coming through the area, a lot of times they would say, you might want to go out to see them. And that was always fun to show them around. It was a lovely area. There was a nice climbing hill that you could just take a refreshing walk up the hill nearby.

[Assistant] So you stayed in the same place for?

[User] Yeah, it was a very, that was a really positive thing.

[Assistant] And how did that place compare to the ones that you were building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple. It was, strangely enough, the Republican governor at the time did some sort of a trade mission, and some mother and father of a former boyfriend of mine was headed down there. So they came and stayed at the fancy hotel downtown and came out to the población and invite us downtown to eat with them. So that was fun. Other times when the volunteers would be coming through the area, a lot of times they would say, you might want to go out to see them. And that was always fun to show them around. It was a lovely area. There was a nice climbing hill that you could just take a refreshing walk up the hill nearby.

[Assistant] So you stayed in the same place for?

[User] Yeah, it was a very, that was a really positive thing.

[Assistant] And how did that place compare to the ones that you were building?

[User] Well, the ones we were building were nicer because they were a little more insulated. We had, uh, in training they taught us how to make plaster panels with hemp rope and plaster. So we made, tried to put some plaster panels on our house. But it was a bit of a challenge to make them in one site and transport them on a jiggly truck. And there were only a few that made it up without cracks, major cracks. And there was no insulation in the roof. So, you know, our temperature had a lot to do with what the temperature was outside. But their houses were a lot more insulated.

[Assistant] And how did you heat, did you say you heated with that fuel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was a very, that was a really positive thing.

[Assistant] And how did that place compare to the ones that you were building?

[User] Well, the ones we were building were nicer because they were a little more insulated. We had, uh, in training they taught us how to make plaster panels with hemp rope and plaster. So we made, tried to put some plaster panels on our house. But it was a bit of a challenge to make them in one site and transport them on a jiggly truck. And there were only a few that made it up without cracks, major cracks. And there was no insulation in the roof. So, you know, our temperature had a lot to do with what the temperature was outside. But their houses were a lot more insulated.

[Assistant] And how did you heat, did you say you heated with that fuel?

[User] Right, we did, that you wanted to be real careful about how much you did and you would never have it on when you go to sleep at night. And then the hot water was a contraption with, a metal contraption with a pipe in the middle of it, so the idea was that the water would go slowly in circles around this pipe and in the middle of this metal contraption you started a fire, you put some fuel and then started the fire. So this fire is supposed to heat this water. And of course, the faster it goes, the cooler it comes out. So if you really want hot water, it's just barely dripping out of the cellar. So, and you know, we showered like once a week, if you can believe it. And it was an event. Yeah, it's like, we heat up the bathroom and the bathroom was, you know, my husband taking regular garden hoses and running it from some spigot someplace into the house and into the bathroom and into the kitchen. And then, you know, several times it would spring a leak. And so I think what would happen, I think the local cats would hear something happening in the pipe, in the rubber hose and start digging at it. And then it goes.

[Assistant] So what about your toilet facilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a nice toilet. It worked. When the water was running it flushed down. If the water, we'd bucket flush it. So for the most part.

[Assistant] And where did it go? Was there?

[User] Oh, there's a great picture of my husband digging the black hole outside this little wooden shack. He must have made it, you know, nine feet deep. He said, I am not re-digging this. And it would be all the one people from the neighborhood would look down him. It's going to be enough, you don't have to worry. He was a sort of a laughingstock with this huge hole.

[Assistant] You know, we had one guy on in our group, he was pretty good at construction. He built a, you know, a bathroom. And they don't have seats there, they have those foot stools, you know? Well, he's got it all. And he did a great job and he was great, but he didn't realize until after he got done that when you squatted, you were facing Mecca, you know, and so he had to take the whole thing down and turn it around. So. You make a lot of mistakes to learn a few things. Ok, let's see, I think we're going to try to evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps. The first one is to provide technical assistance where requested. How do you think you did in that area?

[User] I think Daniel was able to do that in terms of his instruction things and just helping out the widow and whoever else he was asked to help. Mine was such a loose assignment. I certainly felt like it was helpful in terms of people, you know, seeing sort of a generosity of spirit and sharing and coming together.

[Assistant] I think with me, it was kind of, you know, I didn't do that much physically. I think it was just making friends and learning their style and, you know, enjoying it. I didn't build any lasting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think, you know, they certainly learned that the people of the United States are just folks, whereas there was just lots of stuff happening with the government that was very ugly. So that was a good thing. One incident happened. Someone had gotten a hold of a Time magazine and there was a picture of a slum, an American slum. And he says, I don't know if this is propagation, propaganda or not but are there slums in America? And it's like he was almost embarrassed to ask my husband. He says, you betcha, you know. And then we started looking through our magazines and there was very little that would indicate that there was, you know, everything wasn't just hunky-dory in America.

[Assistant] Ok, and the third goal is to, excuse me, promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans. How do you think you did there?

[User] I can just, it speaks to the personal enrichment. You know, people are folks. People want the same things. My husband was able to, or we were able to, be involved in some community education efforts. Bringing some films to some areas, Peace Corps movie set, and bring some drums.

[Assistant] Ok, let's see. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and or contact with people from that country?

[User] Well, shortly after we left, a year and a half after maybe two years, there was a horrible coup d'etat in Chile. The newly elected president was killed and we were at UWM at the time. So we definitely made it very clear that we were not in favor of this and we did some organizing around those issues. We had some loose connections with folks. This is a sort of pre-email. Eventually, we were able to get an email of somebody. So it's been quite limited, although when we visited 30 years later, there was one of the other construction workers that, you know, had a house and family and invited us to meet with them.

[Assistant] So you went back in '96, and that was the only time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can just, it speaks to the personal enrichment. You know, people are folks. People want the same things. My husband was able to, or we were able to, be involved in some community education efforts. Bringing some films to some areas, Peace Corps movie set, and bring some drums.

[Assistant] Ok, let's see. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and or contact with people from that country?

[User] Well, shortly after we left, a year and a half after maybe two years, there was a horrible coup d'etat in Chile. The newly elected president was killed and we were at UWM at the time. So we definitely made it very clear that we were not in favor of this and we did some organizing around those issues. We had some loose connections with folks. This is a sort of pre-email. Eventually, we were able to get an email of somebody. So it's been quite limited, although when we visited 30 years later, there was one of the other construction workers that, you know, had a house and family and invited us to meet with them.

[Assistant] So you went back in '96, and that was the only time?

[User] Well, actually went back again in, I believe it was '99, maybe 2000, with our children, and so then. Us with our three children and a good friend of ours stayed at the house. So here my three girls are in one double bed, in this unheated room, just really it's having the Peace Corps experience and talking about how we can fit if the one in the middle would just raise their arms above their head to sleep. It was just sweet to see them dealing with this and putting up with it. We had the fortune of good fortune to have them go into the Spanish immersion school here, so they all had some Spanish, so they could feel connected.

[Assistant] Let's see. Have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, shortly after we left, a year and a half after maybe two years, there was a horrible coup d'etat in Chile. The newly elected president was killed and we were at UWM at the time. So we definitely made it very clear that we were not in favor of this and we did some organizing around those issues. We had some loose connections with folks. This is a sort of pre-email. Eventually, we were able to get an email of somebody. So it's been quite limited, although when we visited 30 years later, there was one of the other construction workers that, you know, had a house and family and invited us to meet with them.

[Assistant] So you went back in '96, and that was the only time?

[User] Well, actually went back again in, I believe it was '99, maybe 2000, with our children, and so then. Us with our three children and a good friend of ours stayed at the house. So here my three girls are in one double bed, in this unheated room, just really it's having the Peace Corps experience and talking about how we can fit if the one in the middle would just raise their arms above their head to sleep. It was just sweet to see them dealing with this and putting up with it. We had the fortune of good fortune to have them go into the Spanish immersion school here, so they all had some Spanish, so they could feel connected.

[Assistant] Let's see. Have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement?

[User] Well, we're part of the group that meets although we don't do a whole lot with them but we love connecting at least once a year.

[Assistant] Okay. Have you been involved in any third goal activities like, you know, presenting to the people in the U.S. what Chile was like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually went back again in, I believe it was '99, maybe 2000, with our children, and so then. Us with our three children and a good friend of ours stayed at the house. So here my three girls are in one double bed, in this unheated room, just really it's having the Peace Corps experience and talking about how we can fit if the one in the middle would just raise their arms above their head to sleep. It was just sweet to see them dealing with this and putting up with it. We had the fortune of good fortune to have them go into the Spanish immersion school here, so they all had some Spanish, so they could feel connected.

[Assistant] Let's see. Have you had any continuing Peace Corps involvement?

[User] Well, we're part of the group that meets although we don't do a whole lot with them but we love connecting at least once a year.

[Assistant] Okay. Have you been involved in any third goal activities like, you know, presenting to the people in the U.S. what Chile was like?

[User] You know, I think my husband has done that, one of those teach-ins with the Peace Corps. But, not so much. And that might be an idea for me in retirement.

[Assistant] Yeah, because people are always looking for something like that. Ok, I guess I want to try to see what effect you thought your Peace Corps service had on you, either an immediate effect or change in yourself, career plans, long term, whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we're part of the group that meets although we don't do a whole lot with them but we love connecting at least once a year.

[Assistant] Okay. Have you been involved in any third goal activities like, you know, presenting to the people in the U.S. what Chile was like?

[User] You know, I think my husband has done that, one of those teach-ins with the Peace Corps. But, not so much. And that might be an idea for me in retirement.

[Assistant] Yeah, because people are always looking for something like that. Ok, I guess I want to try to see what effect you thought your Peace Corps service had on you, either an immediate effect or change in yourself, career plans, long term, whatever.

[User] You know, it really gave me a sense of who I was and who I wasn't. Coming of age in the sixties, you know, I wasn't so proud to be an American. I was a little guarded about that sometimes, would try to pass ourselves off as Canadians. But going to and seeing the folks there and just really realizing what their values were and who they were and how they thought. I thought I am different, and I'm different because this is where I come from, and that's OK. That's who I am. It was just a real inner knowing something that I didn't know before. And I wouldn't have ever known it unless I was able to see that contrast.

[Assistant] Did it change your career at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I think my husband has done that, one of those teach-ins with the Peace Corps. But, not so much. And that might be an idea for me in retirement.

[Assistant] Yeah, because people are always looking for something like that. Ok, I guess I want to try to see what effect you thought your Peace Corps service had on you, either an immediate effect or change in yourself, career plans, long term, whatever.

[User] You know, it really gave me a sense of who I was and who I wasn't. Coming of age in the sixties, you know, I wasn't so proud to be an American. I was a little guarded about that sometimes, would try to pass ourselves off as Canadians. But going to and seeing the folks there and just really realizing what their values were and who they were and how they thought. I thought I am different, and I'm different because this is where I come from, and that's OK. That's who I am. It was just a real inner knowing something that I didn't know before. And I wouldn't have ever known it unless I was able to see that contrast.

[Assistant] Did it change your career at all?

[User] It didn't. It was a boost for me because now I was a Spanish speaking social worker and I could head into my graduate studies and get to work. So that was a good thing.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any like words of wisdom or anything that you'd like to pass on to people who might be listening to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it really gave me a sense of who I was and who I wasn't. Coming of age in the sixties, you know, I wasn't so proud to be an American. I was a little guarded about that sometimes, would try to pass ourselves off as Canadians. But going to and seeing the folks there and just really realizing what their values were and who they were and how they thought. I thought I am different, and I'm different because this is where I come from, and that's OK. That's who I am. It was just a real inner knowing something that I didn't know before. And I wouldn't have ever known it unless I was able to see that contrast.

[Assistant] Did it change your career at all?

[User] It didn't. It was a boost for me because now I was a Spanish speaking social worker and I could head into my graduate studies and get to work. So that was a good thing.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any like words of wisdom or anything that you'd like to pass on to people who might be listening to you?

[User] You know, I think the words that were shared with us before we went, is that you are going to see things, you're not going to, um. Whatever you may leave there is certainly insignificant. The greatest gift is what those folks give to you. And when you think about all the patience they had putting up with us, our 22 year old selves, as we make it through life. They must have had great laughs as they saw us etching out our life on the corner of that.

[Assistant] I think, like you said, uh, the fact that you didn't have those expectations and just kind of took it as it was and realized that you're going to get more out of them than they ever get out of you. I think once I made that mental adjustment, things went, you know, I think a lot of people came in with, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And it was hard for, you know, they got frustrated and you just have to slow down a little.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It didn't. It was a boost for me because now I was a Spanish speaking social worker and I could head into my graduate studies and get to work. So that was a good thing.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any like words of wisdom or anything that you'd like to pass on to people who might be listening to you?

[User] You know, I think the words that were shared with us before we went, is that you are going to see things, you're not going to, um. Whatever you may leave there is certainly insignificant. The greatest gift is what those folks give to you. And when you think about all the patience they had putting up with us, our 22 year old selves, as we make it through life. They must have had great laughs as they saw us etching out our life on the corner of that.

[Assistant] I think, like you said, uh, the fact that you didn't have those expectations and just kind of took it as it was and realized that you're going to get more out of them than they ever get out of you. I think once I made that mental adjustment, things went, you know, I think a lot of people came in with, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And it was hard for, you know, they got frustrated and you just have to slow down a little.

[User] Occasionally, we'd have a visit from somebody, a technical person who was not a Peace Corps, but somehow employed, a Chilean American. And folks were doing a special project with oysters, and they came back with so many resentments and, you know, it wasn't going right, and, you know, lots of complaints about how things were. And I think that speaks to what you just said that they had expectations. And you know, you're not in Kansas anymore.

[Assistant] Right, right. Ok. Anything else you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] To begin with, I did take a look at your autobiography before coming, and it was very interesting. It did cover a lot about your early life and how you got interested in the space program. So I'd like to just expand on some of the things that were in your book.\n\n To begin with, when you first came to JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] early on, were here at JPL, you worked on an early Mars mission—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —by doing some entry studies, I believe.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What were the similarities of that project with what you worked on later that was Mars-related, and then some of the differences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. That's space biz. [Laughter] That's the aerospace biz. Anything that's mainly funded by the government is going to be very up and down. I mean, look at the superconducting super collider. It was great, everybody wanted it until Texas got it, and then all of a sudden there was nothing for anybody but Texas. The impetus to spend all that much money on one project in one state was just not that high.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, that is the way it works sometimes.

[User] Yes, all the time. All the time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] When that project, when the Voyager project that you were working on did go away, you actually left JPL for a brief period and had some interesting experiences.

[User] For six months, right. Right.

[Assistant] But coming back, you got involved in trajectory analysis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, all the time. All the time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] When that project, when the Voyager project that you were working on did go away, you actually left JPL for a brief period and had some interesting experiences.

[User] For six months, right. Right.

[Assistant] But coming back, you got involved in trajectory analysis.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Actually, that wasn't working out so well for you, and you switched with an officemate to working on an automated drug identification system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For six months, right. Right.

[Assistant] But coming back, you got involved in trajectory analysis.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Actually, that wasn't working out so well for you, and you switched with an officemate to working on an automated drug identification system.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That seems a unique thing for JPL to be involved in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right. It was hairy.

[Assistant] And everything did go very well.

[User] Yes, it ended up working. But, of course, it's all done with the people. The engineers and scientists were just willing to put in whatever it took to make it work. I mean, for the scientists, it was their data, the culmination of their career, and you can certainly see why. But the engineers just were absolutely dedicated and devoted and were sleeping on tables, and nobody ever went home. So it was pretty wild. It's one of those things where it's much better to talk about it afterwards than to line through it.

[Assistant] Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there have been a variety of incidents like that in the space program. Most people have a similar viewpoint.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, the Apollo 13. It was kind of Apollo 13 only no people on board.

[Assistant] And a much longer time frame.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it ended up working. But, of course, it's all done with the people. The engineers and scientists were just willing to put in whatever it took to make it work. I mean, for the scientists, it was their data, the culmination of their career, and you can certainly see why. But the engineers just were absolutely dedicated and devoted and were sleeping on tables, and nobody ever went home. So it was pretty wild. It's one of those things where it's much better to talk about it afterwards than to line through it.

[Assistant] Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there have been a variety of incidents like that in the space program. Most people have a similar viewpoint.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, the Apollo 13. It was kind of Apollo 13 only no people on board.

[Assistant] And a much longer time frame.

[User] A much longer time frame. But, you get accustomed—you know, these spacecraft become like people to you. You're not willing to lose them lightly, having invested four, five, six years of your life in them.

[Assistant] A lot of time and effort to make it all. And as you said, for the scientists, it's so much of their career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A much longer time frame. But, you get accustomed—you know, these spacecraft become like people to you. You're not willing to lose them lightly, having invested four, five, six years of your life in them.

[Assistant] A lot of time and effort to make it all. And as you said, for the scientists, it's so much of their career.

[User] Right. The chances to fly are so few and far between that they're really determined to get the most out of it.

[Assistant] Yes. Absolutely.

[User] Okay. We're not making much progress, are we?

[Assistant] We're doing all right. I think we'll make it.\n\n Now we're kind of actually moving into a transition time for you. There were some other projects, but you also had your daughter about this time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, Webb took the budget and quadrupled it or something like that over what he thought he would need. At that point, when you don't know what you're doing, that's about what you have to do. Then, there was so much work to go around, and the contractors at the time were not entrenched, and they hadn't built the buildings and hired all the people and everything. But once Apollo was over, then here's this big infrastructure in place. Now you've created it, you've got to feed it. So NASA has been feeding its infrastructure ever since. It's just a piece of the military-industrial complex, which [President Dwight D.] Eisenhower feared so much and which is with us.

[Assistant] Well, it should be interesting to see what does come of it, as you said, in these next ten years and these individual groups and the space authorities begin to grow up.

[User] Yes. It's really fun to be in on at the beginning.

[Assistant] It must be.

[User] Yes. It's fun to track this stuff. I mean, you get to talk to some interesting people. I've got one I talked to called J.P. Aerospace that launches things. They launch balloons. They've been around for twenty years now. They launch balloons, and then they dangle rockets from the balloons, and the rockets then fire and go up into orbit from being taken up by a balloon.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Wow. That's neat. I hadn't heard of that before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's really fun to be in on at the beginning.

[Assistant] It must be.

[User] Yes. It's fun to track this stuff. I mean, you get to talk to some interesting people. I've got one I talked to called J.P. Aerospace that launches things. They launch balloons. They've been around for twenty years now. They launch balloons, and then they dangle rockets from the balloons, and the rockets then fire and go up into orbit from being taken up by a balloon.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Wow. That's neat. I hadn't heard of that before.

[User] Yes. In fact, they were called "rockoons" for a while, a cross between a rocket and a balloon. Evidently, Jim [James A.] Van Allen, way back in the early, early days of space, early fifties, mid-fifties, was doing this kind of thing to launch his instruments.

[Assistant] Really? I guess it's a technology, then, that works pretty well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's fun to track this stuff. I mean, you get to talk to some interesting people. I've got one I talked to called J.P. Aerospace that launches things. They launch balloons. They've been around for twenty years now. They launch balloons, and then they dangle rockets from the balloons, and the rockets then fire and go up into orbit from being taken up by a balloon.

[Assistant] Oh, how interesting. Wow. That's neat. I hadn't heard of that before.

[User] Yes. In fact, they were called "rockoons" for a while, a cross between a rocket and a balloon. Evidently, Jim [James A.] Van Allen, way back in the early, early days of space, early fifties, mid-fifties, was doing this kind of thing to launch his instruments.

[Assistant] Really? I guess it's a technology, then, that works pretty well.

[User] That's right. Yes.

[Assistant] That's great. Well, it's just the innovation that people can get into.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In fact, they were called "rockoons" for a while, a cross between a rocket and a balloon. Evidently, Jim [James A.] Van Allen, way back in the early, early days of space, early fifties, mid-fifties, was doing this kind of thing to launch his instruments.

[Assistant] Really? I guess it's a technology, then, that works pretty well.

[User] That's right. Yes.

[Assistant] That's great. Well, it's just the innovation that people can get into.

[User] Yes. Okay. Wow.

[Assistant] We've moved out of Space Station, and after that point was when you began to get into rovers, which then kind of dominated your career for a good rest of the time at JPL. In your book you talked about a lot of the different concepts for the rovers. As you've said, there were some very large ones down to Sojourner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Yes.

[Assistant] That's great. Well, it's just the innovation that people can get into.

[User] Yes. Okay. Wow.

[Assistant] We've moved out of Space Station, and after that point was when you began to get into rovers, which then kind of dominated your career for a good rest of the time at JPL. In your book you talked about a lot of the different concepts for the rovers. As you've said, there were some very large ones down to Sojourner.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Looking at all those different rovers, or different capabilities, what do you see as their future? We've just been talking here about the future of the space program in general, but rovers, both for the space program and even their applicability on Earth, you talked about some of that in your book as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they try hard on the technologies, but you can't sell the space program on the spinoffs. It's just not going to—I mean, there isn't enough. If you were going to develop Teflon, you'd set out and develop Teflon.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Or Tang. The spinoffs are good, but that's not what it's about. It's about exploration and adventure and then the commercial practicalities, telecommunications, remote sensing, and so on. All that's just going to take a while, and with the infrastructure that was built up by the Cold War and Apollo program and everything, now you've got all these pigs at the trough, and the little piggies are trying to get [commercial space] in and having a hard time. So it's going to be interesting.

[Assistant] Hopefully, it'll all begin to come together as time grows.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] If we could take a break here—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or Tang. The spinoffs are good, but that's not what it's about. It's about exploration and adventure and then the commercial practicalities, telecommunications, remote sensing, and so on. All that's just going to take a while, and with the infrastructure that was built up by the Cold War and Apollo program and everything, now you've got all these pigs at the trough, and the little piggies are trying to get [commercial space] in and having a hard time. So it's going to be interesting.

[Assistant] Hopefully, it'll all begin to come together as time grows.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] If we could take a break here—

[User] Yes, let's take a break. [Tape Change]

[Assistant] In your book you talked about—and this is going back a bit to the rovers—you talked about the robotic intelligence branch being separate from the robotics organization and then talked about how those two were integrated and actually how you saw that as not being a good thing for the intelligence group and that several people left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] If we could take a break here—

[User] Yes, let's take a break. [Tape Change]

[Assistant] In your book you talked about—and this is going back a bit to the rovers—you talked about the robotic intelligence branch being separate from the robotics organization and then talked about how those two were integrated and actually how you saw that as not being a good thing for the intelligence group and that several people left.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So I was wondering about what that mission was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. As a matter of fact, Dave is here at the University of Oklahoma now, and he and I are working together. That young man that came in with the [paper]—Dave and I are both on his committee, his master's committee.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great.

[User] Yes. So I talked Dave into coming here.

[Assistant] That's nice.

[User] A small world.

[Assistant] Well, it worked out, I guess, for the university then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So I talked Dave into coming here.

[Assistant] That's nice.

[User] A small world.

[Assistant] Well, it worked out, I guess, for the university then.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Well, we've talked in several instances about some of the leadership and management issues, and you mentioned at one point, both in your book and kind of once as we've been talking, about not having flight hardware experience and that causing some resistance. But it was a Catch-22, as you mentioned in your book. How was a person supposed to overcome—or were they not expected to overcome that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, you've got this big infrastructure to support.

[Assistant] The Pathfinder was, as you said, cute—or not the Pathfinder, Sojourner—cute, attractive, it had human characteristics. But did you, even knowing those things going into it, did you imagine the amount of attention, even to toys being generated?

[User] Well, yeah. We'd been working on the toys for quite some time. A woman named Joan Horvath at JPL was part of our commercialization group, and she got the idea of trying to sell it as a toy. Now, we'd been approached a number of times by people who wanted to market it as a toy, but nothing had ever really happened. So Joan went out and got with Mattel [Inc.] and got all the licensing agreements done and everything like that. Of course, there was a lot of opposition: "Well, this is so undignified, a Hot Wheels toy." And I pushed it real hard, and we finally got it through. So by the time it landed, Mattel had taken a risk, gone ahead and produced a bunch of these packages—like that one over there—and had them out there, and then it was just a frenzy. You couldn't get them.

[Assistant] You couldn't find them. I couldn't find them.

[User] Oh, yes. I had grandmothers calling me up, pleading, "Oh, my grandson has to have one of these. Can you get one?" I said, "I can't get them for my own child." Yes, it went even better than we thought. We knew it was going to be good, but we didn't know how good it was going to be.\n\n It's very interesting because NASA Headquarters public information, for instance, if there's a Shuttle launch, they cover it the whole time. It doesn't matter what else is going on. Most of the time nothing's happening. It's just pictures of people sitting at consoles. But they do it twenty-four hours a day as long as the Shuttle's up. Now, I don't know what they're going to do with the station.

[Assistant] It'll be interesting to see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I had grandmothers calling me up, pleading, "Oh, my grandson has to have one of these. Can you get one?" I said, "I can't get them for my own child." Yes, it went even better than we thought. We knew it was going to be good, but we didn't know how good it was going to be.\n\n It's very interesting because NASA Headquarters public information, for instance, if there's a Shuttle launch, they cover it the whole time. It doesn't matter what else is going on. Most of the time nothing's happening. It's just pictures of people sitting at consoles. But they do it twenty-four hours a day as long as the Shuttle's up. Now, I don't know what they're going to do with the station.

[Assistant] It'll be interesting to see.

[User] And, of course, they do get pressure from—like they don't want to do produced video. They came in and said we couldn't do the blue rooms anymore because that was produced video and only the media could do produced video. I don't know whether that was pressure they got from the media or where they got it. So again, you know, political pressure does everything.\n\n It was a lot of fun. It was a good experience. Of course it was good for me personally. Because of all the exposure I ended up getting a book contract and getting to be a well-paid speaker. So I was able to retire without starving to death.

[Assistant] That's always a good thing.

[User] It was a good thing.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, both at NASA but even before that, when you were a student earning your degrees, you experienced a variety of discrimination, I guess, is the word, as a woman, and you talked a bit about that in your book. You mentioned that persistence, determination, creativity, and flexibility were some of your keys to success.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, of course, they do get pressure from—like they don't want to do produced video. They came in and said we couldn't do the blue rooms anymore because that was produced video and only the media could do produced video. I don't know whether that was pressure they got from the media or where they got it. So again, you know, political pressure does everything.\n\n It was a lot of fun. It was a good experience. Of course it was good for me personally. Because of all the exposure I ended up getting a book contract and getting to be a well-paid speaker. So I was able to retire without starving to death.

[Assistant] That's always a good thing.

[User] It was a good thing.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, both at NASA but even before that, when you were a student earning your degrees, you experienced a variety of discrimination, I guess, is the word, as a woman, and you talked a bit about that in your book. You mentioned that persistence, determination, creativity, and flexibility were some of your keys to success.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Aside from that as advice, is there anything that you recommend to young women? They're still trying to break into a male world today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it just took me a long time to get through all the hurdles to get to be a project manager.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully the hurdles you went through will help inspire others.

[User] Yes, hopefully.

[Assistant] Open some doors for them.

[User] That would be a big accomplishment if, by existing and being out there, it does inspire other women to do it. That would also be a big accomplishment. That's a little harder to measure, as to how much personal impact you have on something like that. A lot of people come up and tell me that I'm their role model, but it might have happened anyway.

[Assistant] Well, I can say personally that you have impacted my career to a certain extent. I was reading your book while I was finishing my master's program and looked on it as, "Look what women can do in the space world. I can do it." It was right as I was finishing my master's project, was doing a group project, and it was just overwhelming. It was like, "Okay, now, she's been through it. I can go through this."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, hopefully.

[Assistant] Open some doors for them.

[User] That would be a big accomplishment if, by existing and being out there, it does inspire other women to do it. That would also be a big accomplishment. That's a little harder to measure, as to how much personal impact you have on something like that. A lot of people come up and tell me that I'm their role model, but it might have happened anyway.

[Assistant] Well, I can say personally that you have impacted my career to a certain extent. I was reading your book while I was finishing my master's program and looked on it as, "Look what women can do in the space world. I can do it." It was right as I was finishing my master's project, was doing a group project, and it was just overwhelming. It was like, "Okay, now, she's been through it. I can go through this."

[User] So you got a master's degree, in night school yet. Well, very good.

[Assistant] Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically, I was escaping my education. I was currently at the time studying physics. I realized I didn't particularly like it. I spend more time at the Cleveland Public Library studying monogram monographs on Indian populations in South America. So I was interested in possibly switching careers, but I didn't know exactly what, whether I would be good at doing something else. And I like the idea of anthropology. So Peace Corps was a way to test whether I could be an anthropologist.

[Assistant] In the field?

[User] In the field, right. And so they first offered me a teaching position in Chile, teaching physics at the university, which is what I definitely did not want. So I said, no, I'd prefer something else. And the second offered me a position to work in rural community development in the Dominican Republic. I had no idea what that meant, particularly in the Dominican Republic works, but I turned them down one, so I didn't want to be turned down a second time. So I said yes. So that's how I ended up in the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] Great. And what did your family think about your leaving physics and going off?

[User] I don't know. We never really talked about it. So they basically let me do what I wanted to do. So it was I mean, in retrospect, I really don't know what they thought about it. And it never came up. It was just something I told them I was going to do. And I went.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the field, right. And so they first offered me a teaching position in Chile, teaching physics at the university, which is what I definitely did not want. So I said, no, I'd prefer something else. And the second offered me a position to work in rural community development in the Dominican Republic. I had no idea what that meant, particularly in the Dominican Republic works, but I turned them down one, so I didn't want to be turned down a second time. So I said yes. So that's how I ended up in the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] Great. And what did your family think about your leaving physics and going off?

[User] I don't know. We never really talked about it. So they basically let me do what I wanted to do. So it was I mean, in retrospect, I really don't know what they thought about it. And it never came up. It was just something I told them I was going to do. And I went.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] In Cleveland, Ohio.

[Assistant] So did other people in Cleveland, Ohio, join the Peace Corps? Any of your friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. We never really talked about it. So they basically let me do what I wanted to do. So it was I mean, in retrospect, I really don't know what they thought about it. And it never came up. It was just something I told them I was going to do. And I went.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] In Cleveland, Ohio.

[Assistant] So did other people in Cleveland, Ohio, join the Peace Corps? Any of your friends?

[User] No idea. I didn't discuss it with anyone else. Certainly my colleagues at the university were so focused on science. I was an outlier. I mean, I was engaged in the civil rights movement in Cleveland. It's sort of a tutorial center. I was working in what they called Freedom Schools, working in inner city Cleveland, talking about civil rights. So I was doing a lot of stuff off campus anyway.

[Assistant] So you were accepted into the Peace Corps. Where did you go for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Cleveland, Ohio.

[Assistant] So did other people in Cleveland, Ohio, join the Peace Corps? Any of your friends?

[User] No idea. I didn't discuss it with anyone else. Certainly my colleagues at the university were so focused on science. I was an outlier. I mean, I was engaged in the civil rights movement in Cleveland. It's sort of a tutorial center. I was working in what they called Freedom Schools, working in inner city Cleveland, talking about civil rights. So I was doing a lot of stuff off campus anyway.

[Assistant] So you were accepted into the Peace Corps. Where did you go for training?

[User] We had what was called outward bound training. Peace Corps had evolved from doing university stateside training to a number of Outward Bound type of training centers. There was one in Mexico and this one was in Puerto Rico in the outside of Arecibo on the north central coast called those books. It was in embedded in the rainforest. And basically our training was got up at 6:00 in the morning, doing our calisthenics, a mile run, eight hours of intensive Spanish, got into cross-country training and technical training. And it was a very intense three months. We did get about two thirds of the way in. We actually were flown to the Dominican Republic for a week. Oh, just as a sampling of what we were going to go. And then we came back to Puerto Rico to finish our training.

[Assistant] I guess it was close. So it was feasible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No idea. I didn't discuss it with anyone else. Certainly my colleagues at the university were so focused on science. I was an outlier. I mean, I was engaged in the civil rights movement in Cleveland. It's sort of a tutorial center. I was working in what they called Freedom Schools, working in inner city Cleveland, talking about civil rights. So I was doing a lot of stuff off campus anyway.

[Assistant] So you were accepted into the Peace Corps. Where did you go for training?

[User] We had what was called outward bound training. Peace Corps had evolved from doing university stateside training to a number of Outward Bound type of training centers. There was one in Mexico and this one was in Puerto Rico in the outside of Arecibo on the north central coast called those books. It was in embedded in the rainforest. And basically our training was got up at 6:00 in the morning, doing our calisthenics, a mile run, eight hours of intensive Spanish, got into cross-country training and technical training. And it was a very intense three months. We did get about two thirds of the way in. We actually were flown to the Dominican Republic for a week. Oh, just as a sampling of what we were going to go. And then we came back to Puerto Rico to finish our training.

[Assistant] I guess it was close. So it was feasible.

[User] Exactly. And that training lasted till probably the mid ‘70s when Peace Corps went to the third stage of training where they did in country training centers. So I've seen because I've worked for Peace Corps for 20 years, I've seen how the way they've done training has evolved, as well as how they design programs and projects.

[Assistant] We were in domestic university based training. So this was a big step forward. Did you have did you have homestays as well in Puerto Rico?