[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You try to. With some folks, it depended on what was going on during the mission. Andy's mission was probably the smoothest one I worked. In general, the mood over there was really good. When there were problems going on, on other people's missions, it was tough over there. You also get into a mode where if you have somebody coming over for six weeks, the first week they're over there, they're still trying to get adjusted and get into the swing of things. Then the last, probably, two weeks they're there it's, "When's my plane?" That sort of thing. So it's tough.\n\n Luckily, we always had a flow of people coming in and out. We tried not to swap everybody out at the same time, so you wouldn't have those kind of spikes and lulls.

[Assistant] Have a good exchange of information?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess, everybody that came in had something new to say?

[User] In general, what we did, we had five or six, in general, positions over there. Each position, somebody would be there for six weeks, and then the next person in their position would come over to take over for them. It really was just getting fresh bodies in.

[Assistant] We talked about your high point. Was there a low point during these 400 days that you were part of the Russian contingent that you thought "Maybe I made the wrong choice. Maybe it'd been better if I hadn't done this"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess, everybody that came in had something new to say?

[User] In general, what we did, we had five or six, in general, positions over there. Each position, somebody would be there for six weeks, and then the next person in their position would come over to take over for them. It really was just getting fresh bodies in.

[Assistant] We talked about your high point. Was there a low point during these 400 days that you were part of the Russian contingent that you thought "Maybe I made the wrong choice. Maybe it'd been better if I hadn't done this"?

[User] No. I can honestly say there was never a time when I said I did the wrong thing. In general, when things were going bad over there, you're so busy you don't have time to think about it. But you come out of that a couple weeks later and you feel great, you know you got through it.

[Assistant] Was there any down time when you all were waiting or just sometimes that you all were sitting, everybody looked at each other like, "What are we supposed to be doing?"


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In general, what we did, we had five or six, in general, positions over there. Each position, somebody would be there for six weeks, and then the next person in their position would come over to take over for them. It really was just getting fresh bodies in.

[Assistant] We talked about your high point. Was there a low point during these 400 days that you were part of the Russian contingent that you thought "Maybe I made the wrong choice. Maybe it'd been better if I hadn't done this"?

[User] No. I can honestly say there was never a time when I said I did the wrong thing. In general, when things were going bad over there, you're so busy you don't have time to think about it. But you come out of that a couple weeks later and you feel great, you know you got through it.

[Assistant] Was there any down time when you all were waiting or just sometimes that you all were sitting, everybody looked at each other like, "What are we supposed to be doing?"

[User] Definitely not a lot. Weekends, in general, were slower than weekdays. But a lot of times you would spend weekends catching up on paperwork or catching up on E-mail or things like that. I always kind of looked forward the weekends. I mean, yes, it was long hours, but at least you would get caught up, caught up on everything.\n\n During Andy's mission we, like I said, it was probably the smoothest of all. He did a great job running his experiments. The experiments held up pretty well. There was probably more down time during Andy's mission than any of the others, but we were never bored over there, looking for stuff to do, anyway. There was always plenty of things to keep us busy.

[Assistant] How about the food? What did you do for lunch every day? Here there's many, many choices, but what did you do for lunch? What did you do when you went home for dinner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I did not taste it. I'm not real adventurous when it comes to that. They're big into tongue over there, too. Nine times out of ten there was tongue on the menu. So you try to get the cafeteria when it opens at noon, because if you go there at two, you get tongue. That's your only choice. You get tongue or you get nothing.

[Assistant] When you went out, did you have more a choice?

[User] Yes. In Moscow, there really is everything there. McDonald's is everywhere. You have T.G.I. Fridays. You have various American restaurants over there. There definitely is not a shortage of places to go to go out over there. Stores over there, grocery stores, in general, the big supermarkets like we're used to aren't very common over there, but they have a ton of little stores over there. You can, in general, find just about anything you wanted. Also I had a membership at the American Embassy commissary, so they would have all kinds of American foods over there. I could get tortilla chips and that sort of thing. We would load up and feed the masses.

[Assistant] How about other shopping? Did you buy clothes after you were there, the seven months in winter?

[User] A couple of times I did. I think people would be surprised to know how expensive it is to live in Moscow. It's ridiculous. Clothes over there, you would pay three times the price that you would here and the quality would be half as good. So I really didn't buy much clothes over there.\n\n People did bring me catalogs, so I would do some shopping and get it delivered actually through the embassy. They can deliver to me over there. So a couple times I had that happen. Or I'd have it delivered to a friend of mine who was coming over on the next charter, that sort of thing. Clothes were something I never really bought over there. A lot of souvenirs the first couple months I was there. That was about it.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite that you bought?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In Moscow, there really is everything there. McDonald's is everywhere. You have T.G.I. Fridays. You have various American restaurants over there. There definitely is not a shortage of places to go to go out over there. Stores over there, grocery stores, in general, the big supermarkets like we're used to aren't very common over there, but they have a ton of little stores over there. You can, in general, find just about anything you wanted. Also I had a membership at the American Embassy commissary, so they would have all kinds of American foods over there. I could get tortilla chips and that sort of thing. We would load up and feed the masses.

[Assistant] How about other shopping? Did you buy clothes after you were there, the seven months in winter?

[User] A couple of times I did. I think people would be surprised to know how expensive it is to live in Moscow. It's ridiculous. Clothes over there, you would pay three times the price that you would here and the quality would be half as good. So I really didn't buy much clothes over there.\n\n People did bring me catalogs, so I would do some shopping and get it delivered actually through the embassy. They can deliver to me over there. So a couple times I had that happen. Or I'd have it delivered to a friend of mine who was coming over on the next charter, that sort of thing. Clothes were something I never really bought over there. A lot of souvenirs the first couple months I was there. That was about it.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite that you bought?

[User] Souvenirs?

[Assistant] Something special that you were glad you found that reminds you of being over there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of times I did. I think people would be surprised to know how expensive it is to live in Moscow. It's ridiculous. Clothes over there, you would pay three times the price that you would here and the quality would be half as good. So I really didn't buy much clothes over there.\n\n People did bring me catalogs, so I would do some shopping and get it delivered actually through the embassy. They can deliver to me over there. So a couple times I had that happen. Or I'd have it delivered to a friend of mine who was coming over on the next charter, that sort of thing. Clothes were something I never really bought over there. A lot of souvenirs the first couple months I was there. That was about it.

[Assistant] Do you have a favorite that you bought?

[User] Souvenirs?

[Assistant] Something special that you were glad you found that reminds you of being over there?

[User] You know, most of my souvenirs have gone to my mom. [Laughter] She was the one calling over, "Yes, but that doll I gave to your aunt. Can you see if you can find me--you know, well, she just really liked it," and that sort of thing.\n\n No, I can't really think of anything. There's this one type of egg that I've kind of wound up collecting, that I probably have four or five of those that I'll hang onto.

[Assistant] Going back to clothes, when you went to work, was there something special you had to wear? Was it a very comfortable atmosphere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Souvenirs?

[Assistant] Something special that you were glad you found that reminds you of being over there?

[User] You know, most of my souvenirs have gone to my mom. [Laughter] She was the one calling over, "Yes, but that doll I gave to your aunt. Can you see if you can find me--you know, well, she just really liked it," and that sort of thing.\n\n No, I can't really think of anything. There's this one type of egg that I've kind of wound up collecting, that I probably have four or five of those that I'll hang onto.

[Assistant] Going back to clothes, when you went to work, was there something special you had to wear? Was it a very comfortable atmosphere?

[User] Very comfortable. In general, now, when all the press was over there, we would try to look at least a little professional. But in general, you would see folks in Dockers, sweaters. A lot of the guys would wear shirts and ties every day. They probably didn't need to. Some of the Russians did, some of them didn't. In general, it was a pretty casual atmosphere. I mean, you could go in blue jeans. I definitely wouldn't do that right out of the chute over there. Like we said, they're big into relationships over there and getting to know you. I think probably the first month or two I was there, skirt and heels or dress pants or something like that. After that, you would see all kinds of dress over there.

[Assistant] You were over there, but while you were there and your team was there, you had a group of people supporting you here. In fact, you invited us into this room today called the POSA room. Could you tell us what they did, and did you also work as part of that team when you were here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The POSA is Payload Operation Support Area. In general, it is staffed by a group of Lockheed-Martin folks. They basically are here Houston-time from about midnight until two in the afternoon, which corresponds to a work day in Moscow of like 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. So basically while the crew was awake.\n\n Most of the folks that supported over here also came over to Moscow to help out over there. We didn't really have any NASA folks in here, I mean, full-time. I would say we had people visiting three days a week, probably. It was probably more than that. I would say probably every day somebody from NASA pokes their head in here and sees how everybody's doing and just checks in with them. These guys did a great job.\n\n Unfortunately, they were given this task that, it's kind of like, "Anything we need over in Moscow. We need you guys to go chase down this obscure fact. We need you guys to go run this down." So these guys, day to day they probably never knew what they were going to be working on the next day. Even like little things, like logical support stuff. "Hey, can somebody track down the Steelers score for me?" I mean, just little things like that. When we were over there for Christmas, they had arranged for one of the people that runs our voice loops to play Christmas music over our voice loops to us. I mean, things like that.

[Assistant] How many people were in here? Did it vary or was it the same amount of people?

[User] In general, it was probably two or three. But I feel sorry for the guys that are in here midnight to 9 a.m. I mean, they are the only ones in this building, just about.

[Assistant] But it was nice, I guess, for you to know that they were here.

[User] It was great. It was great. Also, if an experiment broke at three in the morning Houston time, it was nice; they got to call the experimenter and wake him up, not us.

[Assistant] That's a benefit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In general, it was probably two or three. But I feel sorry for the guys that are in here midnight to 9 a.m. I mean, they are the only ones in this building, just about.

[Assistant] But it was nice, I guess, for you to know that they were here.

[User] It was great. It was great. Also, if an experiment broke at three in the morning Houston time, it was nice; they got to call the experimenter and wake him up, not us.

[Assistant] That's a benefit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Overall, your positions have been so varied the last few years, do you feel that the Shuttle-Mir Program is going to be a benefit to International Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was great. It was great. Also, if an experiment broke at three in the morning Houston time, it was nice; they got to call the experimenter and wake him up, not us.

[Assistant] That's a benefit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Overall, your positions have been so varied the last few years, do you feel that the Shuttle-Mir Program is going to be a benefit to International Space Station?

[User] Yes. I think what we learned, my perspective, we learned how to run a mission. That's not just how to take care of the crew member, but it was how to take care of the people over in Moscow. We're going to have people living in Moscow, possibly at the other centers, I don't know, long term. It's a special-needs thing. I think it's one of the things NASA's probably still learning. I mean, we're getting a whole lot better at it.\n\n While I was there during Andy's increment, one of the other folks there from my group was there with his family. He was one of the first folks to actually bring his full family over here. He's got a wife and three kids, aged, I think, four to twelve, or something. So little ones he has over there.\n\n It's one of the things NASA's still learning, I think, is how you attract the right type of person to that job and how you keep them happy over there.

[Assistant] Did you find changes not only in how you did business, but did you see people change, become more flexible, just overall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never felt like there was a time that I would say something and they weren't interpreting correctly. A lot of times we would be having a discussion amongst ourselves, just with the Americans, "Do we do this? Do we want to do this? Well, why don't we ask this." This sort of thing. One of the interpreters would be sitting there listening to us, and would be like, "Well, you want me to call So-and-so and find out?" It'd be like, "Yes." You'd get to the point where you trust them implicitly to do stuff like that. We're really lucky, we have a real sharp group of interpreters, and that was just key. They also, whether they like or not, sometimes get to be our Russian instructors. Some of my best phrases I learned from the interpreters. [Laughter] That's not for camera, though.

[Assistant] Will you be sharing those? [Laughter] Well, we all have to learn what we have to learn to deal with what we have to deal with.

[User] That's true. You do what you have to do.

[Assistant] We thank you for your time today. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us, something that maybe we didn't cover that you've thought about?

[User] I can't really think of anything.

[Assistant] What we'd like for you to do is if you could just show us how this room works or tell us what's in here, so that we can at least capture that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. You do what you have to do.

[Assistant] We thank you for your time today. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us, something that maybe we didn't cover that you've thought about?

[User] I can't really think of anything.

[Assistant] What we'd like for you to do is if you could just show us how this room works or tell us what's in here, so that we can at least capture that.

[User] Okay. It's not going to be very exciting, but sure. Okay.

[Assistant] That's okay. We take it all and then we just kind of let it flow. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't really think of anything.

[Assistant] What we'd like for you to do is if you could just show us how this room works or tell us what's in here, so that we can at least capture that.

[User] Okay. It's not going to be very exciting, but sure. Okay.

[Assistant] That's okay. We take it all and then we just kind of let it flow. [Laughter]

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You might want to start with your friends up here [photos on the wall]. A lot of these folks you know, don't you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. It's not going to be very exciting, but sure. Okay.

[Assistant] That's okay. We take it all and then we just kind of let it flow. [Laughter]

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You might want to start with your friends up here [photos on the wall]. A lot of these folks you know, don't you?

[User] Yes, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] You didn't work with Shannon Lucid. Your first time was with John Blaha, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You might want to start with your friends up here [photos on the wall]. A lot of these folks you know, don't you?

[User] Yes, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] You didn't work with Shannon Lucid. Your first time was with John Blaha, right?

[User] Not in Moscow.

[Assistant] But you worked with her here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] You didn't work with Shannon Lucid. Your first time was with John Blaha, right?

[User] Not in Moscow.

[Assistant] But you worked with her here?

[User] Yes. When I was doing the Shuttle-only-type thing. So I worked her Shuttle flights.\n\n Yes, these are our cast of heroes here. Starting off with Norm [Norman] Thagard's flight and then all the way through. I guess we don't have any of Dave and Andy up yet. Actually, I just thought one of the things over in Moscow, we have a wall, kind of similar to this, smaller pictures. But we have the crews, kind of like their official astronaut portrait over there. We started at one point coming up with names for everybody. Somebody was, I think Norm Thagard, we were like, "Oh, that's our man in the can." Shannon was "That's our ace in space." It was that sort of thing. We have kind of our wall of fame over there, too.

[Assistant] So are you going to finish these, or that's the only two we're going to get? Do you remember the rest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in Moscow.

[Assistant] But you worked with her here?

[User] Yes. When I was doing the Shuttle-only-type thing. So I worked her Shuttle flights.\n\n Yes, these are our cast of heroes here. Starting off with Norm [Norman] Thagard's flight and then all the way through. I guess we don't have any of Dave and Andy up yet. Actually, I just thought one of the things over in Moscow, we have a wall, kind of similar to this, smaller pictures. But we have the crews, kind of like their official astronaut portrait over there. We started at one point coming up with names for everybody. Somebody was, I think Norm Thagard, we were like, "Oh, that's our man in the can." Shannon was "That's our ace in space." It was that sort of thing. We have kind of our wall of fame over there, too.

[Assistant] So are you going to finish these, or that's the only two we're going to get? Do you remember the rest?

[User] One of them was "Our hero in zero G." I can't remember what the other ones were.\n\n These are just a couple of layouts of some of the modules, some of the Mir modules. Like I said, it was tough for us to keep track of what all was located where. Or when Andy would call down, "Hey, you guys, you know, keep me honest, I'm stowing this behind panel 214. If I need to find it again, help me." Just trying to figure out, okay, now where the heck did he put that thing? Just keeping track of where everything was.

[Assistant] Did you have a training on the modules or was this on the job you learned where everything was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In general it was on the job. A lot of the folks that had been there before me had put together some great reference material that had layouts like this. "Okay, here's where the treadmill is. Here's the galley is," and that sort of thing. So I had a general idea of where things were laid out.\n\n This is kind of the area I would say where most of the work gets done in these two rows. This black phone right here is where they talk to Moscow. The jobs they do here, I mean, are varied. They'll have some long-term things that they need to work on. We keep track of obviously the progress the astronauts are making on experiments and that sort of thing. So that sort of tracking gets done here. But little things, too. "Can you guys make sure So-and-so sees a copy of this video that was downlinked?" That sort of thing. These guys, it's not a glamorous job back here. They do it well. They do a real good job.\n\n Most of the computers in here--E-mail, with the time difference being what it is, E-mail is absolutely essential. There's no way we could do our jobs without it. These guys kind of try to funnel our E-mail for us and make sure we're seeing what we need to see and taking care of the other things for us.

[Assistant] You never really felt isolated from here, because you had so many different forms of communication while you were there?

[User] Yes, it's true. Actually, towards the end of our trip over there, they set up kind of a video teleconferencing-type thing for us that we would use for family conferences. People could bring in the wife and kids and have them on camera and you'd be able to see each other for twenty minutes or so, or actually however long. It was nice. That sort of thing helps.

[Assistant] I can understand why it would be so hard for you to put together a job description of what you did.

[User] It is. You do what needs done and you never know what that is.

[Assistant] We thank you for all the information and for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it's true. Actually, towards the end of our trip over there, they set up kind of a video teleconferencing-type thing for us that we would use for family conferences. People could bring in the wife and kids and have them on camera and you'd be able to see each other for twenty minutes or so, or actually however long. It was nice. That sort of thing helps.

[Assistant] I can understand why it would be so hard for you to put together a job description of what you did.

[User] It is. You do what needs done and you never know what that is.

[Assistant] We thank you for all the information and for your time.

[User] Oh, sure. You bet.

[Assistant] Good luck with wherever it takes you in the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. You do what needs done and you never know what that is.

[Assistant] We thank you for all the information and for your time.

[User] Oh, sure. You bet.

[Assistant] Good luck with wherever it takes you in the future.

[User] Yes, who knows. [Laughter]

[Assistant] More experiences, you'll just have more adventures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. You bet.

[Assistant] Good luck with wherever it takes you in the future.

[User] Yes, who knows. [Laughter]

[Assistant] More experiences, you'll just have more adventures.

[User] Yes, more adventures. That's what I'm looking for.

[Assistant] Well, thank you for speaking with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I spent a year in college, and then Korea [Korean War] broke out. I enlisted in the Navy, and after four years in the Navy, worked as an aircraft mechanic. I came out, I was an accounting major when I went to college the first time. When I came back, I went back to New Mexico, where my folks had moved to, and I was working in the oil fields and a potash mine, waiting to go back to college as an accountant. I watched all the contrails going across the sky, and I said, “Uh-uh, this ain’t for me.”\n\n I came back to California, went up to Reedley College, got an A&P [airframe and power plant mechanics] license and a pilot’s license. Just before I was going to go up to San Jose, I got a summer job down at NACA [High-Speed Flight Station]. Through that summer job, they came and asked me if I would stay. I said, “Yes, I like just what I’m doing here. I don’t need to go any more to college.” I accepted the job, went to work.

[Assistant] Were you interested in aeronautics before you went in the Navy and became a mechanic?

[User] Oh, yes. I’d make the model airplanes, and all that good stuff.

[Assistant] When you started that first summer job, you thought at first it was just going to be temporary?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What type of things were you working on on that summer job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I’d make the model airplanes, and all that good stuff.

[Assistant] When you started that first summer job, you thought at first it was just going to be temporary?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What type of things were you working on on that summer job?

[User] I was working on a [McDonnell F-]101. It was a [NACA] Langley Research [Center, Hampton, Virginia] program. I was working as a crew member on a 101.

[Assistant] What did that entail, being a crew member on a 101?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What type of things were you working on on that summer job?

[User] I was working on a [McDonnell F-]101. It was a [NACA] Langley Research [Center, Hampton, Virginia] program. I was working as a crew member on a 101.

[Assistant] What did that entail, being a crew member on a 101?

[User] Changing engines, and fueling it, and getting it ready for flight, pre-flight, and fixing everything that broke, rigged her complete. Aircraft mechanic.

[Assistant] Did you have to provide your own hand tools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was working on a [McDonnell F-]101. It was a [NACA] Langley Research [Center, Hampton, Virginia] program. I was working as a crew member on a 101.

[Assistant] What did that entail, being a crew member on a 101?

[User] Changing engines, and fueling it, and getting it ready for flight, pre-flight, and fixing everything that broke, rigged her complete. Aircraft mechanic.

[Assistant] Did you have to provide your own hand tools?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do to get those tools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Changing engines, and fueling it, and getting it ready for flight, pre-flight, and fixing everything that broke, rigged her complete. Aircraft mechanic.

[Assistant] Did you have to provide your own hand tools?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do to get those tools?

[User] Well, when I left the Navy, I had a full tool box.

[Assistant] You just brought that with you when you came.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do to get those tools?

[User] Well, when I left the Navy, I had a full tool box.

[Assistant] You just brought that with you when you came.

[User] Yes. You worked on cars with the same tools.

[Assistant] Then, to learn to do what you did on that 101, was that just by watching the older guys and them telling you what to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when I left the Navy, I had a full tool box.

[Assistant] You just brought that with you when you came.

[User] Yes. You worked on cars with the same tools.

[Assistant] Then, to learn to do what you did on that 101, was that just by watching the older guys and them telling you what to do?

[User] Yes, books, TOs [technical orders] that you read. But I had four years of experience in the Navy, working on airplanes. It was no big deal, other than just learning the procedures and the processes that they were using at the time that you did, it was just normal. When you’re getting paid as a mechanic, you know what to do. Then there was three other guys on the crew that if you had a question, you asked them; they had more experience. You had a crew chief.

[Assistant] Those procedures and those processes, were they documented already? Or, was it just you learned those things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You worked on cars with the same tools.

[Assistant] Then, to learn to do what you did on that 101, was that just by watching the older guys and them telling you what to do?

[User] Yes, books, TOs [technical orders] that you read. But I had four years of experience in the Navy, working on airplanes. It was no big deal, other than just learning the procedures and the processes that they were using at the time that you did, it was just normal. When you’re getting paid as a mechanic, you know what to do. Then there was three other guys on the crew that if you had a question, you asked them; they had more experience. You had a crew chief.

[Assistant] Those procedures and those processes, were they documented already? Or, was it just you learned those things?

[User] Yes. Not to the extent they’re documented today. You had to sign off, you had a worksheet, a work book, you wrote down if there was any broken items or squawks against the airplane, it was written down. You wrote in your repair, got an inspector to buy it off, and move on. A pre-flight was always printed out, you just initialed the portion you did. It’s still the same today, basically.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you first started working out here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, books, TOs [technical orders] that you read. But I had four years of experience in the Navy, working on airplanes. It was no big deal, other than just learning the procedures and the processes that they were using at the time that you did, it was just normal. When you’re getting paid as a mechanic, you know what to do. Then there was three other guys on the crew that if you had a question, you asked them; they had more experience. You had a crew chief.

[Assistant] Those procedures and those processes, were they documented already? Or, was it just you learned those things?

[User] Yes. Not to the extent they’re documented today. You had to sign off, you had a worksheet, a work book, you wrote down if there was any broken items or squawks against the airplane, it was written down. You wrote in your repair, got an inspector to buy it off, and move on. A pre-flight was always printed out, you just initialed the portion you did. It’s still the same today, basically.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you first started working out here?

[User] On [North] Base. I came down for the summer, and they gave us a room out on [North] Base for 10 bucks a week. It had a little walk-in closet, and everybody had their [food] box, their chow they’d fix. Neil [A. Armstrong] was down there. All the new hires, the single people, we stayed down there. When I came down permanent, I rented an apartment in Rosamond [California].\n\n I take that back. That was the North Base. The South Base is where the B-2 is now. That’s the South—my mistake. It was the North Base.

[Assistant] They provided that housing for you, the single people to have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Not to the extent they’re documented today. You had to sign off, you had a worksheet, a work book, you wrote down if there was any broken items or squawks against the airplane, it was written down. You wrote in your repair, got an inspector to buy it off, and move on. A pre-flight was always printed out, you just initialed the portion you did. It’s still the same today, basically.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you first started working out here?

[User] On [North] Base. I came down for the summer, and they gave us a room out on [North] Base for 10 bucks a week. It had a little walk-in closet, and everybody had their [food] box, their chow they’d fix. Neil [A. Armstrong] was down there. All the new hires, the single people, we stayed down there. When I came down permanent, I rented an apartment in Rosamond [California].\n\n I take that back. That was the North Base. The South Base is where the B-2 is now. That’s the South—my mistake. It was the North Base.

[Assistant] They provided that housing for you, the single people to have.

[User] Yes. It was old barracks that was left there from the Air Force, when they moved the new base.

[Assistant] How much did you know about the NACA, coming from a Navy background, were you aware what the NACA was doing with research on airplanes before you came here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On [North] Base. I came down for the summer, and they gave us a room out on [North] Base for 10 bucks a week. It had a little walk-in closet, and everybody had their [food] box, their chow they’d fix. Neil [A. Armstrong] was down there. All the new hires, the single people, we stayed down there. When I came down permanent, I rented an apartment in Rosamond [California].\n\n I take that back. That was the North Base. The South Base is where the B-2 is now. That’s the South—my mistake. It was the North Base.

[Assistant] They provided that housing for you, the single people to have.

[User] Yes. It was old barracks that was left there from the Air Force, when they moved the new base.

[Assistant] How much did you know about the NACA, coming from a Navy background, were you aware what the NACA was doing with research on airplanes before you came here?

[User] [I was stationed at Naval Air Station Moffett Field (California) in the Navy.] I learned about NACA through Reedley College. We came down for a field trip, and that’s when I asked if they ever hired anybody for the summer. They said no, but we’re going to start this year. They handed me an app [application]. Made out an app, sent it in, just like you were a regular civil servant. In them days, you didn’t have to take a written civil service test. They would give you a rating on your experience and your schooling. I hired in as a WB-8. Most everybody else was hiring in at WB-2s, or so.

[Assistant] Because you had the experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was old barracks that was left there from the Air Force, when they moved the new base.

[Assistant] How much did you know about the NACA, coming from a Navy background, were you aware what the NACA was doing with research on airplanes before you came here?

[User] [I was stationed at Naval Air Station Moffett Field (California) in the Navy.] I learned about NACA through Reedley College. We came down for a field trip, and that’s when I asked if they ever hired anybody for the summer. They said no, but we’re going to start this year. They handed me an app [application]. Made out an app, sent it in, just like you were a regular civil servant. In them days, you didn’t have to take a written civil service test. They would give you a rating on your experience and your schooling. I hired in as a WB-8. Most everybody else was hiring in at WB-2s, or so.

[Assistant] Because you had the experience.

[User] From out of college, yes.

[Assistant] You had that experience behind you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From out of college, yes.

[Assistant] You had that experience behind you.

[User] Yes. Well, four years and then A&P and everything, gave me the experience. Yes, we came down and took an airplane apart and took it back up to Reedley and made a test bed out of it, that NACA had given us. I got to know some of the mechanics there. There was only 26 mechanics in the hanger when I hired in. We still had B-29s, all the X-models were there. [Bell] X-1, clear through them all. Then the X-2 was on the South Base. We hadn’t gotten it yet. Two [Boeing] B-29s [Superfortress], a [Boeing] B-47 [Stratojet]. The hanger—you’ve been out there. You know, the big hanger on the main building? The biggest hanger?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We had all our airplanes in there. It was jammed.

[Assistant] I bet that was a sight, seeing that for the first time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, four years and then A&P and everything, gave me the experience. Yes, we came down and took an airplane apart and took it back up to Reedley and made a test bed out of it, that NACA had given us. I got to know some of the mechanics there. There was only 26 mechanics in the hanger when I hired in. We still had B-29s, all the X-models were there. [Bell] X-1, clear through them all. Then the X-2 was on the South Base. We hadn’t gotten it yet. Two [Boeing] B-29s [Superfortress], a [Boeing] B-47 [Stratojet]. The hanger—you’ve been out there. You know, the big hanger on the main building? The biggest hanger?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We had all our airplanes in there. It was jammed.

[Assistant] I bet that was a sight, seeing that for the first time.

[User] Yes. The thing is, you worked on all of them. If someone needed a hand, that’s why family is family out there. If someone needed help, they said, “Hey.” Okay, you go over and give them a hand?

[Assistant] Everybody kind of helped each other out. Even though you were working on one particular airplane, or what’s what you were assigned to you were able to work on some of the others, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had all our airplanes in there. It was jammed.

[Assistant] I bet that was a sight, seeing that for the first time.

[User] Yes. The thing is, you worked on all of them. If someone needed a hand, that’s why family is family out there. If someone needed help, they said, “Hey.” Okay, you go over and give them a hand?

[Assistant] Everybody kind of helped each other out. Even though you were working on one particular airplane, or what’s what you were assigned to you were able to work on some of the others, too?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. You might be working on an airplane, and then they might need someone to ride in the back seat and be an observer. In the [B-]29, we were launching X-1s and Phase IIs [Douglas D-558-2 Skyrocket].

[Assistant] Did you ever ride?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The thing is, you worked on all of them. If someone needed a hand, that’s why family is family out there. If someone needed help, they said, “Hey.” Okay, you go over and give them a hand?

[Assistant] Everybody kind of helped each other out. Even though you were working on one particular airplane, or what’s what you were assigned to you were able to work on some of the others, too?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. You might be working on an airplane, and then they might need someone to ride in the back seat and be an observer. In the [B-]29, we were launching X-1s and Phase IIs [Douglas D-558-2 Skyrocket].

[Assistant] Did you ever ride?

[User] I got a couple of rides, yes.

[Assistant] What was that experience like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. You might be working on an airplane, and then they might need someone to ride in the back seat and be an observer. In the [B-]29, we were launching X-1s and Phase IIs [Douglas D-558-2 Skyrocket].

[Assistant] Did you ever ride?

[User] I got a couple of rides, yes.

[Assistant] What was that experience like?

[User] Fun.

[Assistant] I bet it was. It’s something that not many people can say they got to do.\n\n Then, they offered you that permanent position. What was your main project after the 101?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fun.

[Assistant] I bet it was. It’s something that not many people can say they got to do.\n\n Then, they offered you that permanent position. What was your main project after the 101?

[User] I went over to the assistant crew chief on a [Lockheed F-] 104 [Starfighter] with old Dick [Richard E.] Payne. Old Clyde Bailey, did you ever interview Clyde Bailey?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Ed [Edward C.] Coyle, who was crewing the 101 wanted me to move with him over to the [North American F-]100 [Super Sabre], on another project. Then Clyde called me in, and he says, “I think it would be a whole lot better if you went over and worked for Payne on a 104, brand new airplane. Good program.” He says, “He’ll teach you more.”\n\n I said, “Clyde, I’m here, whatever you want me to do, I’ll go do.” I went over, and Payne gave me the opportunity to learn a lot about a lot of processes; how to order parts the NASA way, which NASA uses the Air Force way, not the Navy Way.

[Assistant] So it was different from what you were used to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re responsible for the whole airplane, and everything that’s done to it.

[Assistant] From the moment you take possession of it, on.

[User] If something happened, it was your fault. You had an ops [operations] engineer, and between the two of you, when it broke, or anything went wrong, the two of you worked it, but the responsibility was the crew chief. When something went wrong, the crew chief, it was your fault. We had a lot of power. In those days, crew chief had a lot of power.

[Assistant] You directed all the activity that went around it?

[User] The instrumentation and you scheduled it and all these work orders come down, you coordinated all the work and the crews, and each airplane had a little different program, so each crew chief would handle that.

[Assistant] Were there three X-15s here? Did you handle just one? Or did you handle all of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If something happened, it was your fault. You had an ops [operations] engineer, and between the two of you, when it broke, or anything went wrong, the two of you worked it, but the responsibility was the crew chief. When something went wrong, the crew chief, it was your fault. We had a lot of power. In those days, crew chief had a lot of power.

[Assistant] You directed all the activity that went around it?

[User] The instrumentation and you scheduled it and all these work orders come down, you coordinated all the work and the crews, and each airplane had a little different program, so each crew chief would handle that.

[Assistant] Were there three X-15s here? Did you handle just one? Or did you handle all of them?

[User] When it started out, there were six crew chiefs, two on an airplane, because we worked two shifts. You just rotated every 90 days, days and nights. Then it walked down to where they started cutting back, so then there was four crew chiefs left. I was supposed to take care of the one and go to night shift, and I didn’t want to. Mr. [Joseph R.] Vensel said I didn’t have to. Then we just rotated airplanes. I was [Ship] 2 up until that period. When it crashed at Mud Lake [Nevada], I went down to LAX [Los Angeles International Airport], at North America, we put it all back together and put the tanks on it. Then, when we came back, after, that’s when we shut her down a little bit. So, [Lorenzo “Larry”] Barnett sort of took Ship 2, I took Ship 3. We completely rewired Ship 3 and did everything, and I was crewing Ship 3 when Mike [Michael J. Adams] bought the farm and it crashed.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of difference between the different X-15s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The instrumentation and you scheduled it and all these work orders come down, you coordinated all the work and the crews, and each airplane had a little different program, so each crew chief would handle that.

[Assistant] Were there three X-15s here? Did you handle just one? Or did you handle all of them?

[User] When it started out, there were six crew chiefs, two on an airplane, because we worked two shifts. You just rotated every 90 days, days and nights. Then it walked down to where they started cutting back, so then there was four crew chiefs left. I was supposed to take care of the one and go to night shift, and I didn’t want to. Mr. [Joseph R.] Vensel said I didn’t have to. Then we just rotated airplanes. I was [Ship] 2 up until that period. When it crashed at Mud Lake [Nevada], I went down to LAX [Los Angeles International Airport], at North America, we put it all back together and put the tanks on it. Then, when we came back, after, that’s when we shut her down a little bit. So, [Lorenzo “Larry”] Barnett sort of took Ship 2, I took Ship 3. We completely rewired Ship 3 and did everything, and I was crewing Ship 3 when Mike [Michael J. Adams] bought the farm and it crashed.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of difference between the different X-15s?

[User] The programs, yes. Ship 2 had big drop tanks on it; Ship 1 had the small engines, and then it went to a big engine. Ship 2 had the big engine to start with, and then Ship 3 had a different guidance system in it. It had what you called Energy Management System. The panel was a little different, your cockpit panel. But, as far as the systems, they were the same.

[Assistant] How long did it take when you went down to North American to learn the systems? How long were you there doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When it started out, there were six crew chiefs, two on an airplane, because we worked two shifts. You just rotated every 90 days, days and nights. Then it walked down to where they started cutting back, so then there was four crew chiefs left. I was supposed to take care of the one and go to night shift, and I didn’t want to. Mr. [Joseph R.] Vensel said I didn’t have to. Then we just rotated airplanes. I was [Ship] 2 up until that period. When it crashed at Mud Lake [Nevada], I went down to LAX [Los Angeles International Airport], at North America, we put it all back together and put the tanks on it. Then, when we came back, after, that’s when we shut her down a little bit. So, [Lorenzo “Larry”] Barnett sort of took Ship 2, I took Ship 3. We completely rewired Ship 3 and did everything, and I was crewing Ship 3 when Mike [Michael J. Adams] bought the farm and it crashed.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of difference between the different X-15s?

[User] The programs, yes. Ship 2 had big drop tanks on it; Ship 1 had the small engines, and then it went to a big engine. Ship 2 had the big engine to start with, and then Ship 3 had a different guidance system in it. It had what you called Energy Management System. The panel was a little different, your cockpit panel. But, as far as the systems, they were the same.

[Assistant] How long did it take when you went down to North American to learn the systems? How long were you there doing that?

[User] You mean the first time?

[Assistant] Yes, the first time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The programs, yes. Ship 2 had big drop tanks on it; Ship 1 had the small engines, and then it went to a big engine. Ship 2 had the big engine to start with, and then Ship 3 had a different guidance system in it. It had what you called Energy Management System. The panel was a little different, your cockpit panel. But, as far as the systems, they were the same.

[Assistant] How long did it take when you went down to North American to learn the systems? How long were you there doing that?

[User] You mean the first time?

[Assistant] Yes, the first time.

[User] We were over there maybe four, five months. Just before we got the airplane. Some of the guys had been over there for a year or so.

[Assistant] So, it was quite a process, learning that plane, because it was so different, I imagine. You mentioned that the one that crashed at Mud Lake, and then you went and helped. Can you talk about that accident and what happened, and what you did after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were over there maybe four, five months. Just before we got the airplane. Some of the guys had been over there for a year or so.

[Assistant] So, it was quite a process, learning that plane, because it was so different, I imagine. You mentioned that the one that crashed at Mud Lake, and then you went and helped. Can you talk about that accident and what happened, and what you did after that?

[User] On Ship 2 when [John B “Jack”] McKay took it in?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] They had an engine failure, didn’t start, so they made an emergency landing at Mud Lake, and the gear folded. It had too much weight in the back. It didn’t jettison all the peroxide out of the rear tank. The engine peroxide that ran the pump that pumped everything in. When that did, it slid over, the wing dug in, it flipped over, and Jack got rid of the canopy, but thank God he did. It landed upside down. Once they pulled him out, we had to go up and get some cranes and turn it over and put it on a truck and bring it back. Then they finally found funding and that’s when they stretched it out 39 inches; they made the airplane longer. They put the drop tanks on it. That’s the one that Pete [William J. Knight] made the speed run in, tried to burn it up. But Barnett was on it, then.

[Assistant] Were you on the X-15 the whole time it was here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On Ship 2 when [John B “Jack”] McKay took it in?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] They had an engine failure, didn’t start, so they made an emergency landing at Mud Lake, and the gear folded. It had too much weight in the back. It didn’t jettison all the peroxide out of the rear tank. The engine peroxide that ran the pump that pumped everything in. When that did, it slid over, the wing dug in, it flipped over, and Jack got rid of the canopy, but thank God he did. It landed upside down. Once they pulled him out, we had to go up and get some cranes and turn it over and put it on a truck and bring it back. Then they finally found funding and that’s when they stretched it out 39 inches; they made the airplane longer. They put the drop tanks on it. That’s the one that Pete [William J. Knight] made the speed run in, tried to burn it up. But Barnett was on it, then.

[Assistant] Were you on the X-15 the whole time it was here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do anything else while you were doing the X-15? Or that was it, you just crewed that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had an engine failure, didn’t start, so they made an emergency landing at Mud Lake, and the gear folded. It had too much weight in the back. It didn’t jettison all the peroxide out of the rear tank. The engine peroxide that ran the pump that pumped everything in. When that did, it slid over, the wing dug in, it flipped over, and Jack got rid of the canopy, but thank God he did. It landed upside down. Once they pulled him out, we had to go up and get some cranes and turn it over and put it on a truck and bring it back. Then they finally found funding and that’s when they stretched it out 39 inches; they made the airplane longer. They put the drop tanks on it. That’s the one that Pete [William J. Knight] made the speed run in, tried to burn it up. But Barnett was on it, then.

[Assistant] Were you on the X-15 the whole time it was here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do anything else while you were doing the X-15? Or that was it, you just crewed that?

[User] Yes, other than when you’re on night shift, we worked on 104s, or anything else that might need it. If your airplane wasn’t ready to fly, you were just sort of babysitting and doing small mods [modifications]. When you had the time, you went and helped. Some of those crew chiefs down there they had on those 104s didn’t even know how to change an engine, so you had to go down there and give them a hand. Well, they were learning.

[Assistant] Did you ever work on the LLRV [Lunar Landing Research Vehicle]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do anything else while you were doing the X-15? Or that was it, you just crewed that?

[User] Yes, other than when you’re on night shift, we worked on 104s, or anything else that might need it. If your airplane wasn’t ready to fly, you were just sort of babysitting and doing small mods [modifications]. When you had the time, you went and helped. Some of those crew chiefs down there they had on those 104s didn’t even know how to change an engine, so you had to go down there and give them a hand. Well, they were learning.

[Assistant] Did you ever work on the LLRV [Lunar Landing Research Vehicle]?

[User] I know what it is, yes.

[Assistant] But you didn’t actually do any of the maintenance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, other than when you’re on night shift, we worked on 104s, or anything else that might need it. If your airplane wasn’t ready to fly, you were just sort of babysitting and doing small mods [modifications]. When you had the time, you went and helped. Some of those crew chiefs down there they had on those 104s didn’t even know how to change an engine, so you had to go down there and give them a hand. Well, they were learning.

[Assistant] Did you ever work on the LLRV [Lunar Landing Research Vehicle]?

[User] I know what it is, yes.

[Assistant] But you didn’t actually do any of the maintenance.

[User] No. No, when they first had it, when the Iron Bird [X-15 simulator] was there—see, I left NASA for 10 years.

[Assistant] When was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know what it is, yes.

[Assistant] But you didn’t actually do any of the maintenance.

[User] No. No, when they first had it, when the Iron Bird [X-15 simulator] was there—see, I left NASA for 10 years.

[Assistant] When was that?

[User] I left in ’69. I was crewing the [General Dynamics F-]111 [Aardvark]. I thought the world was passing me by, I wasn’t being advanced fast enough, so I quit. Mr. [Paul F.] Bikle said, “If you ever want to come back, Charlie, you can come back.”\n\n I said, “Well, thank you,” but I went up to Reedley where I had gone to school, and I bought a service station, and a tow business. I ran that, and then I got a call from Mr. Barnett.\n\n He said, “Hey, I really need you to come back and do something for me.” He said, “Would you come back?”\n\n I said, “I don’t know.”\n\n He said, “I can’t pay you what you’re making, tell me your bottom line, and we’ll see what we can do.” So, I did. The next thing, I came back and took over the [Space] Shuttle area.

[Assistant] They asked you to come back and do that because of your experience with the X-15?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, when they first had it, when the Iron Bird [X-15 simulator] was there—see, I left NASA for 10 years.

[Assistant] When was that?

[User] I left in ’69. I was crewing the [General Dynamics F-]111 [Aardvark]. I thought the world was passing me by, I wasn’t being advanced fast enough, so I quit. Mr. [Paul F.] Bikle said, “If you ever want to come back, Charlie, you can come back.”\n\n I said, “Well, thank you,” but I went up to Reedley where I had gone to school, and I bought a service station, and a tow business. I ran that, and then I got a call from Mr. Barnett.\n\n He said, “Hey, I really need you to come back and do something for me.” He said, “Would you come back?”\n\n I said, “I don’t know.”\n\n He said, “I can’t pay you what you’re making, tell me your bottom line, and we’ll see what we can do.” So, I did. The next thing, I came back and took over the [Space] Shuttle area.

[Assistant] They asked you to come back and do that because of your experience with the X-15?

[User] Well, my experience with NASA. Knowing the ropes. Knowing how to get around. My first six weeks I was down in the Shuttle area, my job was to tell them what was wrong.

[Assistant] What was wrong with the processes that they were using?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And knew how to get things done. There was that NACA mentality in the way things were done, and then when it got switched over to NASA, for a while, maybe it may have maintained that, but things started changing after a time.

[User] When it went from NACA to NASA, at Dryden it didn’t change. We still did the same old thing we’d always been doing, it was the same old way. Then you’d have processes and pillars, and all this stuff come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] that you had to bring into your processes. The process, for now, is just so cumbersome. You could not fly an X-15 today.

[Assistant] Just because of the way they do things, or process things?

[User] Hell, they wouldn’t let you be running the pumps, and stick your head in there and see if there was a fire or anything.

[Assistant] It was a dangerous situation, being an aircraft mechanic, then working with those crews, the X-15, and I know mechanics were right there with toxic fumes, and different things happening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When it went from NACA to NASA, at Dryden it didn’t change. We still did the same old thing we’d always been doing, it was the same old way. Then you’d have processes and pillars, and all this stuff come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] that you had to bring into your processes. The process, for now, is just so cumbersome. You could not fly an X-15 today.

[Assistant] Just because of the way they do things, or process things?

[User] Hell, they wouldn’t let you be running the pumps, and stick your head in there and see if there was a fire or anything.

[Assistant] It was a dangerous situation, being an aircraft mechanic, then working with those crews, the X-15, and I know mechanics were right there with toxic fumes, and different things happening.

[User] We were careful. We knew what we were doing. Today there’s just too many people saying, “Well, gee whiz, what if, what if, what if?” Well, come on.

[Assistant] You came back, when was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hell, they wouldn’t let you be running the pumps, and stick your head in there and see if there was a fire or anything.

[Assistant] It was a dangerous situation, being an aircraft mechanic, then working with those crews, the X-15, and I know mechanics were right there with toxic fumes, and different things happening.

[User] We were careful. We knew what we were doing. Today there’s just too many people saying, “Well, gee whiz, what if, what if, what if?” Well, come on.

[Assistant] You came back, when was that?

[User] I was gone through the ‘70s. I came back in ’80.

[Assistant] Were you there during some of the early ALT [Approach and Landing Test] flights at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were careful. We knew what we were doing. Today there’s just too many people saying, “Well, gee whiz, what if, what if, what if?” Well, come on.

[Assistant] You came back, when was that?

[User] I was gone through the ‘70s. I came back in ’80.

[Assistant] Were you there during some of the early ALT [Approach and Landing Test] flights at all?

[User] No, right after that. I was an inspector on the 747, plus taking care of some of the stuff in the Shuttle area, until I finally became Chief of the Shuttle Support Office.

[Assistant] You were inspector for the 747. What did that entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was gone through the ‘70s. I came back in ’80.

[Assistant] Were you there during some of the early ALT [Approach and Landing Test] flights at all?

[User] No, right after that. I was an inspector on the 747, plus taking care of some of the stuff in the Shuttle area, until I finally became Chief of the Shuttle Support Office.

[Assistant] You were inspector for the 747. What did that entail?

[User] That airplane belonged to Johnson. That was a Johnson contract that worked on that airplane. Well, [Joseph S.] Algranti, the deal was, when they left it there, that Dryden would furnish an inspector to make sure Dryden was covered. I got that job.

[Assistant] You inspected to make sure that everything was done right on it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, right after that. I was an inspector on the 747, plus taking care of some of the stuff in the Shuttle area, until I finally became Chief of the Shuttle Support Office.

[Assistant] You were inspector for the 747. What did that entail?

[User] That airplane belonged to Johnson. That was a Johnson contract that worked on that airplane. Well, [Joseph S.] Algranti, the deal was, when they left it there, that Dryden would furnish an inspector to make sure Dryden was covered. I got that job.

[Assistant] You inspected to make sure that everything was done right on it?

[User] Yes, I went down to Flying Tigers [Flying Tiger Line], and I went to 747 school. I could have crewed it, I had the same ability. But I don’t think I would have. You had to learn the airplane to even inspect it. You didn’t know what the hell you was looking at if you didn’t know some of the systems.

[Assistant] Talk about that first Shuttle flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That airplane belonged to Johnson. That was a Johnson contract that worked on that airplane. Well, [Joseph S.] Algranti, the deal was, when they left it there, that Dryden would furnish an inspector to make sure Dryden was covered. I got that job.

[Assistant] You inspected to make sure that everything was done right on it?

[User] Yes, I went down to Flying Tigers [Flying Tiger Line], and I went to 747 school. I could have crewed it, I had the same ability. But I don’t think I would have. You had to learn the airplane to even inspect it. You didn’t know what the hell you was looking at if you didn’t know some of the systems.

[Assistant] Talk about that first Shuttle flight.

[User] STS-1?

[Assistant] Yes, I’m sure everyone watched that first launch. Talk about when it came back and what your duties were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went down to Flying Tigers [Flying Tiger Line], and I went to 747 school. I could have crewed it, I had the same ability. But I don’t think I would have. You had to learn the airplane to even inspect it. You didn’t know what the hell you was looking at if you didn’t know some of the systems.

[Assistant] Talk about that first Shuttle flight.

[User] STS-1?

[Assistant] Yes, I’m sure everyone watched that first launch. Talk about when it came back and what your duties were.

[User] Well, the night before was chaos with all the photographers that were there. I was up all night long, because they’d climb the fence, and keeping them out of the area, it got to be a nightmare calling security, “Get that guy out of here.”

[Assistant] Was that part of your responsibilities, too, making sure the area was clear?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] STS-1?

[Assistant] Yes, I’m sure everyone watched that first launch. Talk about when it came back and what your duties were.

[User] Well, the night before was chaos with all the photographers that were there. I was up all night long, because they’d climb the fence, and keeping them out of the area, it got to be a nightmare calling security, “Get that guy out of here.”

[Assistant] Was that part of your responsibilities, too, making sure the area was clear?

[User] Yes. All the equipment, because Dryden was in charge of all rolling stock. We maintained all the rolling stock, stair trucks, the generators, almost all that convoy equipment that was going out, we maintained it all. That was our job. We had a contractor that did some, then NASA was a COTR [Contracting Officer’s Technical Representative], oversaw it. That was part of my responsibility. But after we did that and they landed, and they towed it back, that’s the first time I ever saw it. I got a sunburn on the roof of my mouth from gawking at it.\n\n But when we were towing it back, they came across the lake bed, and we were going to pull it up—you’ve been out there, where the MDD [Shuttle Mate-Demate Device] was? Old Chuck [Charles A.] Brown, which he was a facility guy at the time, washed down the ramp, and water went out on the lake bed, made it a little soft. They were pulling it, and I could see the Shuttle sinking. I’m telling them, “Pull harder, get moving, get it going faster.” Oh, no, no. They stopped. Down she went.

[Assistant] On a STS-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Right out in front. It’s dark, and everything. They finally give up and said, “Oh, the tug’s bad.”\n\n “No, the tug’s not bad.”\n\n “Oh, it’s all heating up.”\n\n I took the radiator cap, stuck my finger in, and said, “Not very damned hot to me.” I’m arguing with Kennedy. They didn’t know what to do. Finally, I turned around and says, “Do you think you know how?”\n\n And I said, “Oh, yes.” I called the warehouse and said, “Send me down a bunch of plywood. Thickest you got.” Come down and put plywood under the wheels. First, I wanted to leave the air out of the tires. Oh, can’t do that. That’s old farmers that do that. We got the plywood down, got the T500 [truck] come down, hooked it on, we pulled it and got it up on the plywood, started moving, take that plywood and walked it up until we got to concrete. They didn’t like that, either. But it got done.

[Assistant] What would have been the alternative if you hadn’t gotten it out of there?

[User] They would have probably gone down and dug it down and poured concrete.

[Assistant] Built a ramp?

[User] Yes. You know how they would overdo things.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned the convoy and the ground support equipment. How many trucks were in that convoy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would have probably gone down and dug it down and poured concrete.

[Assistant] Built a ramp?

[User] Yes. You know how they would overdo things.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned the convoy and the ground support equipment. How many trucks were in that convoy?

[User] Oh, God, probably 14, 15, 20 or so. I think the first time we went down with everything there that was 25, 30 vehicles in line. They had the two big air conditioning units, that cool and the purge. Those were the ones with the tubes coming up, they did the same thing at Kennedy.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of people, then they were all working under you, the people that drove it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You know how they would overdo things.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned the convoy and the ground support equipment. How many trucks were in that convoy?

[User] Oh, God, probably 14, 15, 20 or so. I think the first time we went down with everything there that was 25, 30 vehicles in line. They had the two big air conditioning units, that cool and the purge. Those were the ones with the tubes coming up, they did the same thing at Kennedy.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of people, then they were all working under you, the people that drove it?

[User] No, I supported that.

[Assistant] The flights that came after that, of course [STS-] 2 landed, but STS-3 landed at White Sands [New Mexico].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, God, probably 14, 15, 20 or so. I think the first time we went down with everything there that was 25, 30 vehicles in line. They had the two big air conditioning units, that cool and the purge. Those were the ones with the tubes coming up, they did the same thing at Kennedy.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of people, then they were all working under you, the people that drove it?

[User] No, I supported that.

[Assistant] The flights that came after that, of course [STS-] 2 landed, but STS-3 landed at White Sands [New Mexico].

[User] We packed all the equipment to go to White Sands. We came in that day, they had the abort, and they made the decision, so we started tearing all the equipment apart, putting it together, went home, took a shower, came back, we loaded them up on the cars, drove to Las Cruces [New Mexico], went out to White Sands for a meeting. We beat the train there. Then we went and started unloading the train, and then I went to bed. Slept in the car on the way.

[Assistant] How long were you out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I supported that.

[Assistant] The flights that came after that, of course [STS-] 2 landed, but STS-3 landed at White Sands [New Mexico].

[User] We packed all the equipment to go to White Sands. We came in that day, they had the abort, and they made the decision, so we started tearing all the equipment apart, putting it together, went home, took a shower, came back, we loaded them up on the cars, drove to Las Cruces [New Mexico], went out to White Sands for a meeting. We beat the train there. Then we went and started unloading the train, and then I went to bed. Slept in the car on the way.

[Assistant] How long were you out there?

[User] What was it? A month? Three weeks? That’s when it got all sanded up. In fact, it was Lockheed then. They didn’t show up in time, so here I am driving the purge unit and equipment back out to White Sands, and my guys. I had four guys from Smith, it was Smith Engineering [Company] at the time. It’s Kay and Associates now, but that contract. They were there, we took care of all the generators and made sure they kept running through the whole time, and everything.

[Assistant] You took all the equipment out there to take care of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We packed all the equipment to go to White Sands. We came in that day, they had the abort, and they made the decision, so we started tearing all the equipment apart, putting it together, went home, took a shower, came back, we loaded them up on the cars, drove to Las Cruces [New Mexico], went out to White Sands for a meeting. We beat the train there. Then we went and started unloading the train, and then I went to bed. Slept in the car on the way.

[Assistant] How long were you out there?

[User] What was it? A month? Three weeks? That’s when it got all sanded up. In fact, it was Lockheed then. They didn’t show up in time, so here I am driving the purge unit and equipment back out to White Sands, and my guys. I had four guys from Smith, it was Smith Engineering [Company] at the time. It’s Kay and Associates now, but that contract. They were there, we took care of all the generators and made sure they kept running through the whole time, and everything.

[Assistant] You took all the equipment out there to take care of that.

[User] Yes, I worked pretty close with Kennedy. We were just outside looking in. But when they needed something, they knew where to come.

[Assistant] So, coordinating, I imagine especially on that flight, the coordinating between Kennedy and Johnson and Dryden, and then you throw White Sands into it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a big show. I had to go in and get something, because I had a little pickup, I ran around, and I was a chief gofer, and I’m running in there to get something out of the thing, the guy with the Uzi says, “You can’t go here.”\n\n I said, “Then shoot me.” He looked at me. I said, “I’ve got a job to do, you got a job to do. I have to see that person right now, and I’m gone.” I walked right on by and did my job and left. I don’t know if he’d have shot me, or not, but I think I out-bluffed him.

[Assistant] There was so much more interest once the Shuttle started than there was when you first started with some of those X-planes, and the X-15. Nobody really knew what was going on out here. Then Shuttle came and brought a lot of attention.

[User] [President Lyndon B.] Johnson came out on the X-15, and there were movie stars. We made the X 15 film, did you ever see that one?

[Assistant] I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.

[User] It had [Charles] Bronson, Chuck Bronson, and I forget some of the others. They made a film, and we filmed at night in our hanger.

[Assistant] It was a regular Hollywood film?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [President Lyndon B.] Johnson came out on the X-15, and there were movie stars. We made the X 15 film, did you ever see that one?

[Assistant] I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.

[User] It had [Charles] Bronson, Chuck Bronson, and I forget some of the others. They made a film, and we filmed at night in our hanger.

[Assistant] It was a regular Hollywood film?

[User] A regular Hollywood film, big time. Yes, it was great, because they brought their food, and we could go eat their food. We didn’t have to bring our lunch bucket.

[Assistant] Was the movie good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had [Charles] Bronson, Chuck Bronson, and I forget some of the others. They made a film, and we filmed at night in our hanger.

[Assistant] It was a regular Hollywood film?

[User] A regular Hollywood film, big time. Yes, it was great, because they brought their food, and we could go eat their food. We didn’t have to bring our lunch bucket.

[Assistant] Was the movie good?

[User] Yes, it was. It was pretty good, yes.

[Assistant] Did you feel like it was realistic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A regular Hollywood film, big time. Yes, it was great, because they brought their food, and we could go eat their food. We didn’t have to bring our lunch bucket.

[Assistant] Was the movie good?

[User] Yes, it was. It was pretty good, yes.

[Assistant] Did you feel like it was realistic?

[User] Sort of, yes. They took a little mockup and put it on the [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress], and they would show some of that. It was just sort of a love story, or whatever it was.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look that up. Did you support their effort to do that and was that part of what you needed to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was pretty good, yes.

[Assistant] Did you feel like it was realistic?

[User] Sort of, yes. They took a little mockup and put it on the [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress], and they would show some of that. It was just sort of a love story, or whatever it was.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look that up. Did you support their effort to do that and was that part of what you needed to do?

[User] Yes. Night shift did that. Then, when they made that lunar landing picture, for HBO [From the Earth to the Moon], we supported that, too. That was a lot later on. I was running a support contract out there. I retired in ’94 and I started a flight station out here for [Aurora] Flight Sciences, flying robotic airplanes. The Perseus. We put an airplane to a hundred thousand feet with a gas engine. Robotic.\n\n Then after a year, I found out that big green money they flash in front of your face was not worth it. I quit. Then the guy that was running the AGE [Aerospace Ground Equipment] support contract out there had a massive heart attack, and they asked me if I would come and take over that contract, so I did that. I was there for 11 years doing that.

[Assistant] What was that, the support contract?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sort of, yes. They took a little mockup and put it on the [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress], and they would show some of that. It was just sort of a love story, or whatever it was.

[Assistant] We’ll have to look that up. Did you support their effort to do that and was that part of what you needed to do?

[User] Yes. Night shift did that. Then, when they made that lunar landing picture, for HBO [From the Earth to the Moon], we supported that, too. That was a lot later on. I was running a support contract out there. I retired in ’94 and I started a flight station out here for [Aurora] Flight Sciences, flying robotic airplanes. The Perseus. We put an airplane to a hundred thousand feet with a gas engine. Robotic.\n\n Then after a year, I found out that big green money they flash in front of your face was not worth it. I quit. Then the guy that was running the AGE [Aerospace Ground Equipment] support contract out there had a massive heart attack, and they asked me if I would come and take over that contract, so I did that. I was there for 11 years doing that.

[Assistant] What was that, the support contract?

[User] We took care of all the AGE equipment, ground support equipment, all the vehicles.

[Assistant] You were on the other side now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Night shift did that. Then, when they made that lunar landing picture, for HBO [From the Earth to the Moon], we supported that, too. That was a lot later on. I was running a support contract out there. I retired in ’94 and I started a flight station out here for [Aurora] Flight Sciences, flying robotic airplanes. The Perseus. We put an airplane to a hundred thousand feet with a gas engine. Robotic.\n\n Then after a year, I found out that big green money they flash in front of your face was not worth it. I quit. Then the guy that was running the AGE [Aerospace Ground Equipment] support contract out there had a massive heart attack, and they asked me if I would come and take over that contract, so I did that. I was there for 11 years doing that.

[Assistant] What was that, the support contract?

[User] We took care of all the AGE equipment, ground support equipment, all the vehicles.

[Assistant] You were on the other side now.

[User] I was a contractor. I was triple-dipping. Well, I was still doing what I wanted to do. I’ve always been sort of a troubleshooter. When they’d come and say, “How can we do this?” or, “Can we do that?”\n\n “Yes, we can do that.”\n\n “Well it’s not really—they’re not going to—”\n\n I said, “No, it can get done. Just shut up and be quiet, and it’ll get done.” In fact, you heard about the [Convair] 990 [Coronado] program?

[Assistant] Go ahead and talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] After they started landing in Florida, you still had to be ready here in Dryden, didn’t you?

[User] Every time.

[Assistant] Just in case?

[User] Yes. Well, we landed out there, what, 26 times.

[Assistant] You had to be ready in case they aborted too, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every time.

[Assistant] Just in case?

[User] Yes. Well, we landed out there, what, 26 times.

[Assistant] You had to be ready in case they aborted too, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that any different, preparing for those aborts, than it would be for a normal landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, we landed out there, what, 26 times.

[Assistant] You had to be ready in case they aborted too, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that any different, preparing for those aborts, than it would be for a normal landing?

[User] No, not much, other than the personnel. We finally had our own little crew, so if it had did an AOA [Abort Once Around] and landed here, we’d have gone out and powered down and hooked the tow bar on it and pulled it off the runway, basically, and sit there and wait for Kennedy to get out here. We knew enough about the systems on the Shuttle by that time.

[Assistant] How to take care of them, and safe them, and everything. You mentioned STS-1 getting stuck. Did that happen more than once?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that any different, preparing for those aborts, than it would be for a normal landing?

[User] No, not much, other than the personnel. We finally had our own little crew, so if it had did an AOA [Abort Once Around] and landed here, we’d have gone out and powered down and hooked the tow bar on it and pulled it off the runway, basically, and sit there and wait for Kennedy to get out here. We knew enough about the systems on the Shuttle by that time.

[Assistant] How to take care of them, and safe them, and everything. You mentioned STS-1 getting stuck. Did that happen more than once?

[User] Yes. I forget which other one. We went and did a whole bunch of testing on the lake bed.

[Assistant] Talk about that. I think how you tested the lake bed, I think that’s pretty interesting, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not much, other than the personnel. We finally had our own little crew, so if it had did an AOA [Abort Once Around] and landed here, we’d have gone out and powered down and hooked the tow bar on it and pulled it off the runway, basically, and sit there and wait for Kennedy to get out here. We knew enough about the systems on the Shuttle by that time.

[Assistant] How to take care of them, and safe them, and everything. You mentioned STS-1 getting stuck. Did that happen more than once?

[User] Yes. I forget which other one. We went and did a whole bunch of testing on the lake bed.

[Assistant] Talk about that. I think how you tested the lake bed, I think that’s pretty interesting, too.

[User] They had a big—what would you call it? A trailer with the Shuttle tire mounted on it, in the middle of it. We put weights on it to make it 250,000 pounds. We pulled it with a tug out around the runways and the lake bed, and then we measured how deep it went, which certified it for a Shuttle landing. Then they came out and we got testers, where they did a kind of [ground penetrating radar], put it in a vehicle and popped it down, and you knew by the size of your probe that you were pushing down, how much weight it would take. We went around sort of flying it that way after that.

[Assistant] But they still got stuck, even though you did test it like that, occasionally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I forget which other one. We went and did a whole bunch of testing on the lake bed.

[Assistant] Talk about that. I think how you tested the lake bed, I think that’s pretty interesting, too.

[User] They had a big—what would you call it? A trailer with the Shuttle tire mounted on it, in the middle of it. We put weights on it to make it 250,000 pounds. We pulled it with a tug out around the runways and the lake bed, and then we measured how deep it went, which certified it for a Shuttle landing. Then they came out and we got testers, where they did a kind of [ground penetrating radar], put it in a vehicle and popped it down, and you knew by the size of your probe that you were pushing down, how much weight it would take. We went around sort of flying it that way after that.

[Assistant] But they still got stuck, even though you did test it like that, occasionally?

[User] Well, yes. Well, the Air Force did it first. This kid, captain, certified the runway, and we said, okay, so we towed it the second time on the lake bed towards the Shuttle area. We followed the area, he had it, and we stuck it. But it was easier to get out that time.

[Assistant] Did you have to use plywood again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had a big—what would you call it? A trailer with the Shuttle tire mounted on it, in the middle of it. We put weights on it to make it 250,000 pounds. We pulled it with a tug out around the runways and the lake bed, and then we measured how deep it went, which certified it for a Shuttle landing. Then they came out and we got testers, where they did a kind of [ground penetrating radar], put it in a vehicle and popped it down, and you knew by the size of your probe that you were pushing down, how much weight it would take. We went around sort of flying it that way after that.

[Assistant] But they still got stuck, even though you did test it like that, occasionally?

[User] Well, yes. Well, the Air Force did it first. This kid, captain, certified the runway, and we said, okay, so we towed it the second time on the lake bed towards the Shuttle area. We followed the area, he had it, and we stuck it. But it was easier to get out that time.

[Assistant] Did you have to use plywood again?

[User] Yes, a little bit.

[Assistant] That seemed to work better than any other idea, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. Well, the Air Force did it first. This kid, captain, certified the runway, and we said, okay, so we towed it the second time on the lake bed towards the Shuttle area. We followed the area, he had it, and we stuck it. But it was easier to get out that time.

[Assistant] Did you have to use plywood again?

[User] Yes, a little bit.

[Assistant] That seemed to work better than any other idea, right?

[User] Yes. Well, when they had the flat out there, they didn’t know what to do. I got my plywood out, and I made a little bridge, and I pulled the Shuttle gear up on there, and we took the brake, the brake came apart. Pulled the tire off, pulled the brake off. Put the tire back on, backed it down off. Kennedy said I overstressed the Shuttle, so I had to prove to them I didn’t overstress it.

[Assistant] How did you prove it to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a little bit.

[Assistant] That seemed to work better than any other idea, right?

[User] Yes. Well, when they had the flat out there, they didn’t know what to do. I got my plywood out, and I made a little bridge, and I pulled the Shuttle gear up on there, and we took the brake, the brake came apart. Pulled the tire off, pulled the brake off. Put the tire back on, backed it down off. Kennedy said I overstressed the Shuttle, so I had to prove to them I didn’t overstress it.

[Assistant] How did you prove it to them?

[User] Got me an ops engineer, and we went out and got all the data on what it is. The gear can’t stand more than 40,000 pounds to pull on. Well, the T500 torque converter would give up at 25,000 pounds, so there was no way in hell we could pull any harder on that gear, because the torque converter and the transmission in the T500 wouldn’t pull it. I had to get the tug people to give me that data.

[Assistant] They believed you, once you showed them the data?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, when they had the flat out there, they didn’t know what to do. I got my plywood out, and I made a little bridge, and I pulled the Shuttle gear up on there, and we took the brake, the brake came apart. Pulled the tire off, pulled the brake off. Put the tire back on, backed it down off. Kennedy said I overstressed the Shuttle, so I had to prove to them I didn’t overstress it.

[Assistant] How did you prove it to them?

[User] Got me an ops engineer, and we went out and got all the data on what it is. The gear can’t stand more than 40,000 pounds to pull on. Well, the T500 torque converter would give up at 25,000 pounds, so there was no way in hell we could pull any harder on that gear, because the torque converter and the transmission in the T500 wouldn’t pull it. I had to get the tug people to give me that data.

[Assistant] They believed you, once you showed them the data?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you prepare for night landings, once they started, as compared to the day landings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s why they always called. I wasn’t very smart, but I did simple.

[Assistant] But you could work a problem and fix it.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant]
We call that “resourceful.”

Yes, that’s resourceful, that’s true.

[User] Yes. Tuntland, we worked pretty good together. Yes, so they adopted all that, the whole night landing configuration. Smith put it in, we got 35,000 bucks, the eight of us that developed that whole system, won a federal incentive award.

[Assistant] Oh, that was the award I saw on your wall that the president had signed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Tuntland, we worked pretty good together. Yes, so they adopted all that, the whole night landing configuration. Smith put it in, we got 35,000 bucks, the eight of us that developed that whole system, won a federal incentive award.

[Assistant] Oh, that was the award I saw on your wall that the president had signed.

[User] Yes, and I got 4,000 bucks for the reflectors, and I got 4,000 bucks as incentive, suggestions. Mike put all those in.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Navy man.

[Assistant] Of course, right? Your area, were you responsible for the microwave scanning beam landing system, the PAPI [Precision Approach Path Indicator] lights, and everything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I got 4,000 bucks for the reflectors, and I got 4,000 bucks as incentive, suggestions. Mike put all those in.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Navy man.

[Assistant] Of course, right? Your area, were you responsible for the microwave scanning beam landing system, the PAPI [Precision Approach Path Indicator] lights, and everything?

[User] Yes, all that. It was my idea to put the PAPI lights on the trailer, because we had to take them off and on, off and on after every flight. Before, we had them on a steel thing, and we took them out with a truck and set them up. I said, “Oh, this is bull.” We got some little trailers, mounted them all on a trailer, and hauled them out there and set them up, made a procedure on how to align them.

[Assistant] When the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L] accident happened, were you out at work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Navy man.

[Assistant] Of course, right? Your area, were you responsible for the microwave scanning beam landing system, the PAPI [Precision Approach Path Indicator] lights, and everything?

[User] Yes, all that. It was my idea to put the PAPI lights on the trailer, because we had to take them off and on, off and on after every flight. Before, we had them on a steel thing, and we took them out with a truck and set them up. I said, “Oh, this is bull.” We got some little trailers, mounted them all on a trailer, and hauled them out there and set them up, made a procedure on how to align them.

[Assistant] When the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L] accident happened, were you out at work?

[User] I was in Kennedy.

[Assistant] Why were you at Kennedy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, all that. It was my idea to put the PAPI lights on the trailer, because we had to take them off and on, off and on after every flight. Before, we had them on a steel thing, and we took them out with a truck and set them up. I said, “Oh, this is bull.” We got some little trailers, mounted them all on a trailer, and hauled them out there and set them up, made a procedure on how to align them.

[Assistant] When the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS-51L] accident happened, were you out at work?

[User] I was in Kennedy.

[Assistant] Why were you at Kennedy?

[User] We were following STS-26 through processing. There was three of us. Jim [James R.] Phelps and Barnett, and I. None of us wanted to go, but we were—Milt with Jesse Owens, decided we were going. We went, and our job was to see if we could take 10 days out of processing an Orbiter, because it was taking them so long to process, by putting in flight test procedures. We followed 26 through the processing. In fact, we were supposed to do our out-briefing right after launch which, naturally, we didn’t do. But we could have taken 10 days, it was so cumbersome, the way their processes were done.

[Assistant] Was that as a suggestion for them to take those 10 days out? You were there to help try to find those 10 days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We left immediately. Then we went back, I think, in a week, two weeks, and briefed out. When we went back, we told them we would not write a written report, we would do a verbal briefing. Everybody agreed to that, so we gave them a verbal briefing. It was just like I was telling you. All the things we found, and everything that was there.\n\n Gene [James A.] Thomas was there, and who was the Center Director then? The General [Forrest S. McCartney]. I can’t remember names anymore.

[Assistant] There’s just a lot more names.

[User] The mentality between NACA and NASA, was completely different. I think NACA had a mission, and they got mission oriented completely. We’re going to get it done. NASA became more of a political animal.

[Assistant] It was just a different way of doing business.

[User] Different funding, and, well, different missions, too.

[Assistant] What did you do during that time period between Challenger and STS-26, when it flew, the Return to Flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The mentality between NACA and NASA, was completely different. I think NACA had a mission, and they got mission oriented completely. We’re going to get it done. NASA became more of a political animal.

[Assistant] It was just a different way of doing business.

[User] Different funding, and, well, different missions, too.

[Assistant] What did you do during that time period between Challenger and STS-26, when it flew, the Return to Flight?

[User] We had to keep most of the stuff going together. We were doing some of the 990 stuff, but then mostly just clearing everything up. We had the crew transport vehicle in, we had to get that one ready for it. Most of it was just covering your hiney. We had to go through all our own procedures, all our own paperwork, re-verify we were doing things right. It was pretty intense. In that same time, you couldn’t hurt them flying up there on the other end, because that was sort of my job, was to make sure none of the Shuttle went up in the flight test. I was supposed to keep all the Shuttle stuff away from flying airplanes. We had to get ready for Spacelab [reusable laboratory], we redid the facilities for processing all the equipment, and then DoD came in. You know, just that every day.

[Assistant] Yes, how is that different, when those DoD flights flew, as compared to a regular one as far as your job, once it landed? Was it a completely different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Different funding, and, well, different missions, too.

[Assistant] What did you do during that time period between Challenger and STS-26, when it flew, the Return to Flight?

[User] We had to keep most of the stuff going together. We were doing some of the 990 stuff, but then mostly just clearing everything up. We had the crew transport vehicle in, we had to get that one ready for it. Most of it was just covering your hiney. We had to go through all our own procedures, all our own paperwork, re-verify we were doing things right. It was pretty intense. In that same time, you couldn’t hurt them flying up there on the other end, because that was sort of my job, was to make sure none of the Shuttle went up in the flight test. I was supposed to keep all the Shuttle stuff away from flying airplanes. We had to get ready for Spacelab [reusable laboratory], we redid the facilities for processing all the equipment, and then DoD came in. You know, just that every day.

[Assistant] Yes, how is that different, when those DoD flights flew, as compared to a regular one as far as your job, once it landed? Was it a completely different?

[User] You had to put up with the Air Force then.

[Assistant] Is that spoken like a Navy man?