[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Prior to the award fee type contracts, the office chiefs were responsible for the evaluation of the contractor work in their respective areas. These duties were delegated to the engineers and personnel who were assigned to monitor the work in their areas of responsibility. After award fee type contracts were issued, the evaluation process remained basically the same except the criteria for evaluation was established and issued as part of the contract. The evaluation consisted of both objective and subjective criteria and was evaluated in a daily basis with weekly scheduled meetings with the contractors.

[Assistant] At what point were the regulations in place?

[User] It was an evolving type thing. They weren’t just sent to us, the came to us as they were formulated. WSTF had a Procedures Board, which was made up of the office chiefs and the manager. We wrote internal procedures called WSTFIs [White Sands Test Facility Internal Procedures] and as it became necessary or there were problems, we would write a new procedure. The board met on a weekly basis to write new regulations. JSCIs [Johnson Space Center Internal Procedures] were the implementing instructions of the Headquarters, and, of course, we complied with those as well.

[Assistant] Of course, Grumman and North American, being the prime contractors, and you mentioned that the people that were there sometimes may have felt like they weren’t sure about NASA having complete control, but what type of relationship did your office have with them?

[User] Excellent, particularly with North American, which was the most active in the early stages. The manager from North American had a technical background as most of NASA personnel. North American Administrator understood what had to be done and he would come to me and ask, “How can we resolve this?” We would resolve the problem between us. We would go back to our respective managers with our solution and attempt to convince them this was the way it should be done. That is how we resolved many problems and the system worked beautifully.

[Assistant] Were there any other companies that you worked closely with on a regular basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an evolving type thing. They weren’t just sent to us, the came to us as they were formulated. WSTF had a Procedures Board, which was made up of the office chiefs and the manager. We wrote internal procedures called WSTFIs [White Sands Test Facility Internal Procedures] and as it became necessary or there were problems, we would write a new procedure. The board met on a weekly basis to write new regulations. JSCIs [Johnson Space Center Internal Procedures] were the implementing instructions of the Headquarters, and, of course, we complied with those as well.

[Assistant] Of course, Grumman and North American, being the prime contractors, and you mentioned that the people that were there sometimes may have felt like they weren’t sure about NASA having complete control, but what type of relationship did your office have with them?

[User] Excellent, particularly with North American, which was the most active in the early stages. The manager from North American had a technical background as most of NASA personnel. North American Administrator understood what had to be done and he would come to me and ask, “How can we resolve this?” We would resolve the problem between us. We would go back to our respective managers with our solution and attempt to convince them this was the way it should be done. That is how we resolved many problems and the system worked beautifully.

[Assistant] Were there any other companies that you worked closely with on a regular basis?

[User] Yes, Grumman Aircraft. But those contracts were awarded out of JSC. The Grumman Contracting Officer was Jim Neal, and Hank Wychek was the Contracting Officer for North American. I really didn’t have any problem from that standpoint, although I did stay in contact with both Jim and Hank.

[Assistant] What about the relationship of the Procurement Office at White Sands with other NASA centers and NASA Headquarters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Excellent, particularly with North American, which was the most active in the early stages. The manager from North American had a technical background as most of NASA personnel. North American Administrator understood what had to be done and he would come to me and ask, “How can we resolve this?” We would resolve the problem between us. We would go back to our respective managers with our solution and attempt to convince them this was the way it should be done. That is how we resolved many problems and the system worked beautifully.

[Assistant] Were there any other companies that you worked closely with on a regular basis?

[User] Yes, Grumman Aircraft. But those contracts were awarded out of JSC. The Grumman Contracting Officer was Jim Neal, and Hank Wychek was the Contracting Officer for North American. I really didn’t have any problem from that standpoint, although I did stay in contact with both Jim and Hank.

[Assistant] What about the relationship of the Procurement Office at White Sands with other NASA centers and NASA Headquarters?

[User] If I had a problem that I didn’t know how to handle, I usually called J. P. Harris at JSC procurement office, or the legal office, depending on the nature of the problem. They may suggest to me to call either NASA Kennedy Space Center, FL or one of the other centers who had handled similar problems. Other than that, we handled 95 to 98 percent of everything at WSTF or JSC.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo for a minute, the actual program itself. Of course, the Apollo 1 fire. Can you tell us what kind of effect that had on White Sands and your office in particular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I had a problem that I didn’t know how to handle, I usually called J. P. Harris at JSC procurement office, or the legal office, depending on the nature of the problem. They may suggest to me to call either NASA Kennedy Space Center, FL or one of the other centers who had handled similar problems. Other than that, we handled 95 to 98 percent of everything at WSTF or JSC.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo for a minute, the actual program itself. Of course, the Apollo 1 fire. Can you tell us what kind of effect that had on White Sands and your office in particular?

[User] Yes. We were so involved with total requirements; we attended staff meetings every week from the time I was at WSFT. Plus, I spent 50 to 60 percent of my time in meetings for almost the entire time. I was involved with many aspects of the WSTF requirements and I knew what was going on over most of the site. When that came along, we had not done flammability testing. NASA was operating in 100 percent oxygen environment, and we had not tested the materials, nor did we have a requirement at that time to test flammability of the wiring inside the command module. When that happened, the requirement was given to the laboratory to perform the testing. Have you talked to Dave Pippen yet?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Dave is the individual you need to talk with. He did the flammability testing. The laboratory developed the testing equipment. No one had ever done that type of testing before, to my knowledge. Dave developed the procedures for testing and then the lab immediately started performing testing on the materials. JSC engineers would write what needed to be tested and how they wanted it tested, and the environment they wanted the testing performed. The laboratory then did the testing. The only way it affected the Administration Office was added procurement to support the testing. I didn’t see very much difference in the way we were normally operating.

[Assistant] Even with building the test area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We were so involved with total requirements; we attended staff meetings every week from the time I was at WSFT. Plus, I spent 50 to 60 percent of my time in meetings for almost the entire time. I was involved with many aspects of the WSTF requirements and I knew what was going on over most of the site. When that came along, we had not done flammability testing. NASA was operating in 100 percent oxygen environment, and we had not tested the materials, nor did we have a requirement at that time to test flammability of the wiring inside the command module. When that happened, the requirement was given to the laboratory to perform the testing. Have you talked to Dave Pippen yet?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Dave is the individual you need to talk with. He did the flammability testing. The laboratory developed the testing equipment. No one had ever done that type of testing before, to my knowledge. Dave developed the procedures for testing and then the lab immediately started performing testing on the materials. JSC engineers would write what needed to be tested and how they wanted it tested, and the environment they wanted the testing performed. The laboratory then did the testing. The only way it affected the Administration Office was added procurement to support the testing. I didn’t see very much difference in the way we were normally operating.

[Assistant] Even with building the test area?

[User] The test areas themselves, yes. We issued the contracts on some of the testing equipment.

[Assistant] There was a feeling of commitment in the whole facility to get it working?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dave is the individual you need to talk with. He did the flammability testing. The laboratory developed the testing equipment. No one had ever done that type of testing before, to my knowledge. Dave developed the procedures for testing and then the lab immediately started performing testing on the materials. JSC engineers would write what needed to be tested and how they wanted it tested, and the environment they wanted the testing performed. The laboratory then did the testing. The only way it affected the Administration Office was added procurement to support the testing. I didn’t see very much difference in the way we were normally operating.

[Assistant] Even with building the test area?

[User] The test areas themselves, yes. We issued the contracts on some of the testing equipment.

[Assistant] There was a feeling of commitment in the whole facility to get it working?

[User] Oh yes, and it continued to be so up until after the Apollo Program. It was quite a letdown after the Apollo Program. The work had been quite exciting, and everyone was actually proud to be a part of it. But when the Shuttle came along, we were interested in doing it, of course, but the enthusiasm wasn’t there to the same extent as in Apollo.

[Assistant] At what point did the unions come in, time-wise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The test areas themselves, yes. We issued the contracts on some of the testing equipment.

[Assistant] There was a feeling of commitment in the whole facility to get it working?

[User] Oh yes, and it continued to be so up until after the Apollo Program. It was quite a letdown after the Apollo Program. The work had been quite exciting, and everyone was actually proud to be a part of it. But when the Shuttle came along, we were interested in doing it, of course, but the enthusiasm wasn’t there to the same extent as in Apollo.

[Assistant] At what point did the unions come in, time-wise?

[User] It was during the time Dynaelectron was the Maintenance and Operations Contractor.

[Assistant] Was it during the Apollo Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, and it continued to be so up until after the Apollo Program. It was quite a letdown after the Apollo Program. The work had been quite exciting, and everyone was actually proud to be a part of it. But when the Shuttle came along, we were interested in doing it, of course, but the enthusiasm wasn’t there to the same extent as in Apollo.

[Assistant] At what point did the unions come in, time-wise?

[User] It was during the time Dynaelectron was the Maintenance and Operations Contractor.

[Assistant] Was it during the Apollo Program?

[User] It might have been at the end of the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] In 1968, Martin L. Raines recommended to George M. Low that they start phasing down the contractor operations. What type of effect did that have on the test facility and the morale and day-to-day activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was during the time Dynaelectron was the Maintenance and Operations Contractor.

[Assistant] Was it during the Apollo Program?

[User] It might have been at the end of the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] In 1968, Martin L. Raines recommended to George M. Low that they start phasing down the contractor operations. What type of effect did that have on the test facility and the morale and day-to-day activities?

[User] Of course, we had people that were concerned. We had built up around 2,100 people at that time. We may have been a little overstaffed based upon the current testing requirements. Past experience has shown you start laying off personnel, productivity increases. I think we actually saw a little productivity increase from the initial layoff. Morale stayed high. We didn’t see any additional, significant problems.

[Assistant] In 1969, you headed the White Sands Test Facility’s Administration Office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It might have been at the end of the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] In 1968, Martin L. Raines recommended to George M. Low that they start phasing down the contractor operations. What type of effect did that have on the test facility and the morale and day-to-day activities?

[User] Of course, we had people that were concerned. We had built up around 2,100 people at that time. We may have been a little overstaffed based upon the current testing requirements. Past experience has shown you start laying off personnel, productivity increases. I think we actually saw a little productivity increase from the initial layoff. Morale stayed high. We didn’t see any additional, significant problems.

[Assistant] In 1969, you headed the White Sands Test Facility’s Administration Office.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What changed as far as your job duties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, we had people that were concerned. We had built up around 2,100 people at that time. We may have been a little overstaffed based upon the current testing requirements. Past experience has shown you start laying off personnel, productivity increases. I think we actually saw a little productivity increase from the initial layoff. Morale stayed high. We didn’t see any additional, significant problems.

[Assistant] In 1969, you headed the White Sands Test Facility’s Administration Office.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What changed as far as your job duties?

[User] Just a lot more responsibility. The Administration Office was assigned most of the non-technical duties. I had procurement, contract administration, subcontracts; property and supply; budgets; financial management; personnel; reproduction; travel; communications; transportation; and mail service.

[Assistant] How many people did you have supporting you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just a lot more responsibility. The Administration Office was assigned most of the non-technical duties. I had procurement, contract administration, subcontracts; property and supply; budgets; financial management; personnel; reproduction; travel; communications; transportation; and mail service.

[Assistant] How many people did you have supporting you?

[User] At that time?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Including me, we had twenty-one people, which was minimal. I can’t overemphasize this was a group effort, what I called a team concept. We truly had a good team. They performed the work in an outstanding manner with very little complaint.

[Assistant] How was the office organized? How were those twenty-one people organized under you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Including me, we had twenty-one people, which was minimal. I can’t overemphasize this was a group effort, what I called a team concept. We truly had a good team. They performed the work in an outstanding manner with very little complaint.

[Assistant] How was the office organized? How were those twenty-one people organized under you?

[User] The Administration Office consisted of procurement, contract administration, property, communications, transportation, mail, financial management and budget, travel and site personnel, and other duties as assigned. The duties were assigned to the branches, Procurement, Contract Administration and Financial Management and Budget. Personnel and Travel were a staff function to my office and Transportation and Communications were assigned to the Property Officer.

[Assistant] Were there any personnel issues or anything that you can remember during your time there that you dealt with specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Including me, we had twenty-one people, which was minimal. I can’t overemphasize this was a group effort, what I called a team concept. We truly had a good team. They performed the work in an outstanding manner with very little complaint.

[Assistant] How was the office organized? How were those twenty-one people organized under you?

[User] The Administration Office consisted of procurement, contract administration, property, communications, transportation, mail, financial management and budget, travel and site personnel, and other duties as assigned. The duties were assigned to the branches, Procurement, Contract Administration and Financial Management and Budget. Personnel and Travel were a staff function to my office and Transportation and Communications were assigned to the Property Officer.

[Assistant] Were there any personnel issues or anything that you can remember during your time there that you dealt with specifically?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Anything you want to mention? [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Administration Office consisted of procurement, contract administration, property, communications, transportation, mail, financial management and budget, travel and site personnel, and other duties as assigned. The duties were assigned to the branches, Procurement, Contract Administration and Financial Management and Budget. Personnel and Travel were a staff function to my office and Transportation and Communications were assigned to the Property Officer.

[Assistant] Were there any personnel issues or anything that you can remember during your time there that you dealt with specifically?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Anything you want to mention? [Laughter]

[User] If personnel from the contractors, Propulsion Office, Facilities Office, or the Laboratory had a problem that they didn’t feel was being addressed or solved, they came to see me. They knew their issue would be kept confidential and every effort would be made to correct or settle the issue. We tried to resolve a personnel issue in-house and were very successful in doing so.

[Assistant] In 1970, I believe NASA planned to close White Sands. What were your thoughts about that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Anything you want to mention? [Laughter]

[User] If personnel from the contractors, Propulsion Office, Facilities Office, or the Laboratory had a problem that they didn’t feel was being addressed or solved, they came to see me. They knew their issue would be kept confidential and every effort would be made to correct or settle the issue. We tried to resolve a personnel issue in-house and were very successful in doing so.

[Assistant] In 1970, I believe NASA planned to close White Sands. What were your thoughts about that decision?

[User] We all recognized that the time would come when the Apollo Program work would be completed at WSTF. I was told not to expect to stay more than five years at the outset. But when it came, we were very concerned. I recognized that to close down a site, the people required to do that would be personnel and property administration. I wasn’t personally too concerned. I knew the office chiefs were going to try very hard to get additional work, and I knew that the work we had been doing was one of a kind and requirement would be needed to continue NASA’s work.

[Assistant] You mentioned that they told you, when you first began, not to expect to be here any longer than five years. Do you feel that that’s the way they were setting this place up, as something that would be closed down completely and not opened again, or just closed and then possibly opened again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If personnel from the contractors, Propulsion Office, Facilities Office, or the Laboratory had a problem that they didn’t feel was being addressed or solved, they came to see me. They knew their issue would be kept confidential and every effort would be made to correct or settle the issue. We tried to resolve a personnel issue in-house and were very successful in doing so.

[Assistant] In 1970, I believe NASA planned to close White Sands. What were your thoughts about that decision?

[User] We all recognized that the time would come when the Apollo Program work would be completed at WSTF. I was told not to expect to stay more than five years at the outset. But when it came, we were very concerned. I recognized that to close down a site, the people required to do that would be personnel and property administration. I wasn’t personally too concerned. I knew the office chiefs were going to try very hard to get additional work, and I knew that the work we had been doing was one of a kind and requirement would be needed to continue NASA’s work.

[Assistant] You mentioned that they told you, when you first began, not to expect to be here any longer than five years. Do you feel that that’s the way they were setting this place up, as something that would be closed down completely and not opened again, or just closed and then possibly opened again?

[User] No, I think at the time they made that statement, they felt that once the testing was completed, they would close down the facility.

[Assistant] So a lot of people did go back to Johnson?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We all recognized that the time would come when the Apollo Program work would be completed at WSTF. I was told not to expect to stay more than five years at the outset. But when it came, we were very concerned. I recognized that to close down a site, the people required to do that would be personnel and property administration. I wasn’t personally too concerned. I knew the office chiefs were going to try very hard to get additional work, and I knew that the work we had been doing was one of a kind and requirement would be needed to continue NASA’s work.

[Assistant] You mentioned that they told you, when you first began, not to expect to be here any longer than five years. Do you feel that that’s the way they were setting this place up, as something that would be closed down completely and not opened again, or just closed and then possibly opened again?

[User] No, I think at the time they made that statement, they felt that once the testing was completed, they would close down the facility.

[Assistant] So a lot of people did go back to Johnson?

[User] Yes. And, in turn, came back to WSTF later on. The current manager is one of those. He started at WSTF, went to JSC and returned as manager.

[Assistant] How many people did the total number go down to at that time? You mentioned it was, I think, 2,100 at one time. What it go down to? How small did it become?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think at the time they made that statement, they felt that once the testing was completed, they would close down the facility.

[Assistant] So a lot of people did go back to Johnson?

[User] Yes. And, in turn, came back to WSTF later on. The current manager is one of those. He started at WSTF, went to JSC and returned as manager.

[Assistant] How many people did the total number go down to at that time? You mentioned it was, I think, 2,100 at one time. What it go down to? How small did it become?

[User] I am not absolutely sure.

[Assistant] You can give an approximation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am not absolutely sure.

[Assistant] You can give an approximation.

[User] I am not sure of the exact number, but approximately 400.

[Assistant] That small?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Let’s talk about the Space Shuttle Program and then how it affected White Sands and the workforce out here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am not sure of the exact number, but approximately 400.

[Assistant] That small?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Let’s talk about the Space Shuttle Program and then how it affected White Sands and the workforce out here.

[User] As far as my office was concerned, if anything, we many have seen somewhat less requirements come through our office, but it really didn’t have any material effect on what we were doing.

[Assistant] Did the atmosphere change? You mentioned before that with Apollo everyone had that goal in mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Let’s talk about the Space Shuttle Program and then how it affected White Sands and the workforce out here.

[User] As far as my office was concerned, if anything, we many have seen somewhat less requirements come through our office, but it really didn’t have any material effect on what we were doing.

[Assistant] Did the atmosphere change? You mentioned before that with Apollo everyone had that goal in mind.

[User] Yes, because this was the time that I told you that they brought the unions in. If one directed a craft member to do work that was not within the scope of his craft, he could not perform the work. Up until that time, it didn’t make any difference if you were a carpenter or a plumber, if you needed the work done, whoever was available did it.

[Assistant] You mentioned in your list of duties, budget was one of the things you were responsible for. So what were some of the differences between the Apollo Program and the Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as my office was concerned, if anything, we many have seen somewhat less requirements come through our office, but it really didn’t have any material effect on what we were doing.

[Assistant] Did the atmosphere change? You mentioned before that with Apollo everyone had that goal in mind.

[User] Yes, because this was the time that I told you that they brought the unions in. If one directed a craft member to do work that was not within the scope of his craft, he could not perform the work. Up until that time, it didn’t make any difference if you were a carpenter or a plumber, if you needed the work done, whoever was available did it.

[Assistant] You mentioned in your list of duties, budget was one of the things you were responsible for. So what were some of the differences between the Apollo Program and the Shuttle Program?

[User] We had developed a computerized cost-accounting system. All work was defined by task. All the work done on the site was authorized by test preparation sheet [TPS] or work order. When a requirement came in to us, it was in the test area, we would issue a TPS. The Budget Office used a funding number, assigned a task number, and every hour worked would be charged to that task. The computer printout was issued on a weekly basis.

[Assistant] During the seventies, the budget with NASA was shrinking, and you had less to work with. How did you maintain your responsibilities out here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, because this was the time that I told you that they brought the unions in. If one directed a craft member to do work that was not within the scope of his craft, he could not perform the work. Up until that time, it didn’t make any difference if you were a carpenter or a plumber, if you needed the work done, whoever was available did it.

[Assistant] You mentioned in your list of duties, budget was one of the things you were responsible for. So what were some of the differences between the Apollo Program and the Shuttle Program?

[User] We had developed a computerized cost-accounting system. All work was defined by task. All the work done on the site was authorized by test preparation sheet [TPS] or work order. When a requirement came in to us, it was in the test area, we would issue a TPS. The Budget Office used a funding number, assigned a task number, and every hour worked would be charged to that task. The computer printout was issued on a weekly basis.

[Assistant] During the seventies, the budget with NASA was shrinking, and you had less to work with. How did you maintain your responsibilities out here?

[User] I guess, like all organizations. In our meetings with the office chiefs and the managers, we reviewed all the work that had to be done and ask, “Where can we cut?” Normally, you never got an unanimous decision among the office chiefs, and in that case, the manager would just make an arbitrary cut. Then if we got into trouble, usually, you could get help. It was in everyone’s interest that each office meet their responsibilities. I will have to admit , it was cut pretty thin at times, but we always managed to meet our schedules.

[Assistant] You touched on, a minute ago, the reimbursable work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had developed a computerized cost-accounting system. All work was defined by task. All the work done on the site was authorized by test preparation sheet [TPS] or work order. When a requirement came in to us, it was in the test area, we would issue a TPS. The Budget Office used a funding number, assigned a task number, and every hour worked would be charged to that task. The computer printout was issued on a weekly basis.

[Assistant] During the seventies, the budget with NASA was shrinking, and you had less to work with. How did you maintain your responsibilities out here?

[User] I guess, like all organizations. In our meetings with the office chiefs and the managers, we reviewed all the work that had to be done and ask, “Where can we cut?” Normally, you never got an unanimous decision among the office chiefs, and in that case, the manager would just make an arbitrary cut. Then if we got into trouble, usually, you could get help. It was in everyone’s interest that each office meet their responsibilities. I will have to admit , it was cut pretty thin at times, but we always managed to meet our schedules.

[Assistant] You touched on, a minute ago, the reimbursable work.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit and how that process worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess, like all organizations. In our meetings with the office chiefs and the managers, we reviewed all the work that had to be done and ask, “Where can we cut?” Normally, you never got an unanimous decision among the office chiefs, and in that case, the manager would just make an arbitrary cut. Then if we got into trouble, usually, you could get help. It was in everyone’s interest that each office meet their responsibilities. I will have to admit , it was cut pretty thin at times, but we always managed to meet our schedules.

[Assistant] You touched on, a minute ago, the reimbursable work.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit and how that process worked?

[User] When we received reimbursable work, the area that was to perform the testing would come up with a budget, with estimated hours to perform the work. If WSTF agreed that we could do the work within the budget, we accepted the work. A task order was assigned and as work progressed, all changes were made to the assigned task order number. Task order reports came out on a weekly basis or were made available more often, if office chief desired. This permitted the office chief to keep current in trucking cost and performance.

[Assistant] What type of contracts were those? You worked with the Army and the Air Force, too; is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that a little bit and how that process worked?

[User] When we received reimbursable work, the area that was to perform the testing would come up with a budget, with estimated hours to perform the work. If WSTF agreed that we could do the work within the budget, we accepted the work. A task order was assigned and as work progressed, all changes were made to the assigned task order number. Task order reports came out on a weekly basis or were made available more often, if office chief desired. This permitted the office chief to keep current in trucking cost and performance.

[Assistant] What type of contracts were those? You worked with the Army and the Air Force, too; is that correct?

[User] Even though they were not specifically designated as such, they ere in effect a fixed price type contract. Yes, we worked with the Army and Air Force and some work with contractors.

[Assistant] In 1978, I believe, there was a reduction in force [RIF]. Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we received reimbursable work, the area that was to perform the testing would come up with a budget, with estimated hours to perform the work. If WSTF agreed that we could do the work within the budget, we accepted the work. A task order was assigned and as work progressed, all changes were made to the assigned task order number. Task order reports came out on a weekly basis or were made available more often, if office chief desired. This permitted the office chief to keep current in trucking cost and performance.

[Assistant] What type of contracts were those? You worked with the Army and the Air Force, too; is that correct?

[User] Even though they were not specifically designated as such, they ere in effect a fixed price type contract. Yes, we worked with the Army and Air Force and some work with contractors.

[Assistant] In 1978, I believe, there was a reduction in force [RIF]. Do you remember that?

[User] Yes, I do. The RIF had very little impact as the net result. We had a few volunteers to leave or transfer.

[Assistant] Was there any indication before it happened that this was coming in your offices? Did you know it was inevitable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Even though they were not specifically designated as such, they ere in effect a fixed price type contract. Yes, we worked with the Army and Air Force and some work with contractors.

[Assistant] In 1978, I believe, there was a reduction in force [RIF]. Do you remember that?

[User] Yes, I do. The RIF had very little impact as the net result. We had a few volunteers to leave or transfer.

[Assistant] Was there any indication before it happened that this was coming in your offices? Did you know it was inevitable?

[User] We suspected it, sure, since I had the personnel function, I worked closely with personnel. I pretty much knew what was coming. As office chiefs, we were constantly going through personnel cuts with the contractors. When we had cuts in budget, we had to reduce the contractor’s workforce.

[Assistant] When you first started here, going throughout your career here, obviously there was a lot of technological changes as far as the testing facility and engineers and that sort of thing. How did the technology over time, affect your offices?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do. The RIF had very little impact as the net result. We had a few volunteers to leave or transfer.

[Assistant] Was there any indication before it happened that this was coming in your offices? Did you know it was inevitable?

[User] We suspected it, sure, since I had the personnel function, I worked closely with personnel. I pretty much knew what was coming. As office chiefs, we were constantly going through personnel cuts with the contractors. When we had cuts in budget, we had to reduce the contractor’s workforce.

[Assistant] When you first started here, going throughout your career here, obviously there was a lot of technological changes as far as the testing facility and engineers and that sort of thing. How did the technology over time, affect your offices?

[User] Made it easier. The effects it had on us went from typewriter to computer. But the early computers were not very user friendly. In my office, we didn’t have that much of a problem, the mainframe computer system was assigned to the facilities office. The priority was test reports. Everything else was secondary. That meant my office was secondary, except for payroll.

[Assistant] You mentioned that all the astronauts had come through at various times to watch some of the testing. What were your feelings during the Apollo Program, watching them fly, the different astronauts? The ones that always come to mind are Apollo 8 or Apollo 11. Maybe you can describe some of those experiences and where you were and what you were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We suspected it, sure, since I had the personnel function, I worked closely with personnel. I pretty much knew what was coming. As office chiefs, we were constantly going through personnel cuts with the contractors. When we had cuts in budget, we had to reduce the contractor’s workforce.

[Assistant] When you first started here, going throughout your career here, obviously there was a lot of technological changes as far as the testing facility and engineers and that sort of thing. How did the technology over time, affect your offices?

[User] Made it easier. The effects it had on us went from typewriter to computer. But the early computers were not very user friendly. In my office, we didn’t have that much of a problem, the mainframe computer system was assigned to the facilities office. The priority was test reports. Everything else was secondary. That meant my office was secondary, except for payroll.

[Assistant] You mentioned that all the astronauts had come through at various times to watch some of the testing. What were your feelings during the Apollo Program, watching them fly, the different astronauts? The ones that always come to mind are Apollo 8 or Apollo 11. Maybe you can describe some of those experiences and where you were and what you were doing.

[User] I would say we were probably as tense as the group in JSC and Kennedy or maybe more so because we knew the anomalies from the testing we had done and what we hadn’t done. When Apollo 11 touched down on the moon, a great sense of pride for having been a member of the NASA team.

[Assistant] Where were you when Apollo 11 landed? Were you at work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Made it easier. The effects it had on us went from typewriter to computer. But the early computers were not very user friendly. In my office, we didn’t have that much of a problem, the mainframe computer system was assigned to the facilities office. The priority was test reports. Everything else was secondary. That meant my office was secondary, except for payroll.

[Assistant] You mentioned that all the astronauts had come through at various times to watch some of the testing. What were your feelings during the Apollo Program, watching them fly, the different astronauts? The ones that always come to mind are Apollo 8 or Apollo 11. Maybe you can describe some of those experiences and where you were and what you were doing.

[User] I would say we were probably as tense as the group in JSC and Kennedy or maybe more so because we knew the anomalies from the testing we had done and what we hadn’t done. When Apollo 11 touched down on the moon, a great sense of pride for having been a member of the NASA team.

[Assistant] Where were you when Apollo 11 landed? Were you at work?

[User] I must have been at work. I do remember that it was quite exciting and a very proud moment.

[Assistant] You were attentive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say we were probably as tense as the group in JSC and Kennedy or maybe more so because we knew the anomalies from the testing we had done and what we hadn’t done. When Apollo 11 touched down on the moon, a great sense of pride for having been a member of the NASA team.

[Assistant] Where were you when Apollo 11 landed? Were you at work?

[User] I must have been at work. I do remember that it was quite exciting and a very proud moment.

[Assistant] You were attentive.

[User] I was attentive.

[Assistant] While you were at White Sands, during your tenure there you worked under several different managers. Is there anything about their management styles or anything you would like to share as far as the way it was run or any of their styles, like I said, their management styles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I must have been at work. I do remember that it was quite exciting and a very proud moment.

[Assistant] You were attentive.

[User] I was attentive.

[Assistant] While you were at White Sands, during your tenure there you worked under several different managers. Is there anything about their management styles or anything you would like to share as far as the way it was run or any of their styles, like I said, their management styles?

[User] I alluded to you earlier that NASA was a technical organization, but our managers didn’t necessarily possess a management background. They had a technical background, which was consistent with the policy of NASA. But generally, I don’t think we found managers any different from what you might find in a similar type technical organization. I think we covered the spectrum. We had from very good managers to poor. A good manager manages people. If you have a manager who manages the work, that is what a technician should do. When you get a manager who manages work, I put him on the bottom of the scale. We had one of those and we had the other.

[Assistant] Across the board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was attentive.

[Assistant] While you were at White Sands, during your tenure there you worked under several different managers. Is there anything about their management styles or anything you would like to share as far as the way it was run or any of their styles, like I said, their management styles?

[User] I alluded to you earlier that NASA was a technical organization, but our managers didn’t necessarily possess a management background. They had a technical background, which was consistent with the policy of NASA. But generally, I don’t think we found managers any different from what you might find in a similar type technical organization. I think we covered the spectrum. We had from very good managers to poor. A good manager manages people. If you have a manager who manages the work, that is what a technician should do. When you get a manager who manages work, I put him on the bottom of the scale. We had one of those and we had the other.

[Assistant] Across the board?

[User] Yes, But I think the key is that we got the job done. We were successful and that is the important thing.

[Assistant] I noticed also in your list of duties, one of the things that was under there was communication. What did that entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I alluded to you earlier that NASA was a technical organization, but our managers didn’t necessarily possess a management background. They had a technical background, which was consistent with the policy of NASA. But generally, I don’t think we found managers any different from what you might find in a similar type technical organization. I think we covered the spectrum. We had from very good managers to poor. A good manager manages people. If you have a manager who manages the work, that is what a technician should do. When you get a manager who manages work, I put him on the bottom of the scale. We had one of those and we had the other.

[Assistant] Across the board?

[User] Yes, But I think the key is that we got the job done. We were successful and that is the important thing.

[Assistant] I noticed also in your list of duties, one of the things that was under there was communication. What did that entail?

[User] Providing for all the land lines, telephones, fax machines and installations to meet the requirements of all site personnel. We got help from the telephone company, who wrote up a plan and made suggestions of what would be the best for the site. The biggest effort was monitoring the requirements and keeping up with the changes to the system.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1981.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, But I think the key is that we got the job done. We were successful and that is the important thing.

[Assistant] I noticed also in your list of duties, one of the things that was under there was communication. What did that entail?

[User] Providing for all the land lines, telephones, fax machines and installations to meet the requirements of all site personnel. We got help from the telephone company, who wrote up a plan and made suggestions of what would be the best for the site. The biggest effort was monitoring the requirements and keeping up with the changes to the system.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1981.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What lead to that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Providing for all the land lines, telephones, fax machines and installations to meet the requirements of all site personnel. We got help from the telephone company, who wrote up a plan and made suggestions of what would be the best for the site. The biggest effort was monitoring the requirements and keeping up with the changes to the system.

[Assistant] You left NASA in 1981.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What lead to that decision?

[User] The enthusiasm was over. We began to get into Skylab at that point, which was not quite as glamorous. We were to a point where we had written so many regulations that it was more difficult to get the job done. I just felt that it was time to give somebody else a shot, and I really intended to retire, but it turned out I didn’t. The experience I got after that was quite interesting too.

[Assistant] What did you do when you left NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What lead to that decision?

[User] The enthusiasm was over. We began to get into Skylab at that point, which was not quite as glamorous. We were to a point where we had written so many regulations that it was more difficult to get the job done. I just felt that it was time to give somebody else a shot, and I really intended to retire, but it turned out I didn’t. The experience I got after that was quite interesting too.

[Assistant] What did you do when you left NASA?

[User] I worked at New Mexico State University [NMSU] for five years as their contracts manager, consulted for Dynaelectron Corporation for about a year. Then I went to work for Cortez III Corporation and worked there for five years. After that, I finally retired.

[Assistant] If you will, looking at the time you were there from 1963 to 1981, if you can give us just an overview, in your mind, of the changes at White Sands Test Facility and how it changed overtime as far as in the Las Cruces area also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The enthusiasm was over. We began to get into Skylab at that point, which was not quite as glamorous. We were to a point where we had written so many regulations that it was more difficult to get the job done. I just felt that it was time to give somebody else a shot, and I really intended to retire, but it turned out I didn’t. The experience I got after that was quite interesting too.

[Assistant] What did you do when you left NASA?

[User] I worked at New Mexico State University [NMSU] for five years as their contracts manager, consulted for Dynaelectron Corporation for about a year. Then I went to work for Cortez III Corporation and worked there for five years. After that, I finally retired.

[Assistant] If you will, looking at the time you were there from 1963 to 1981, if you can give us just an overview, in your mind, of the changes at White Sands Test Facility and how it changed overtime as far as in the Las Cruces area also.

[User] You can’t imagine how Las Cruces has changed. The area was desert all the way out from Las Cruces to WSTF. There was one abandoned service station and on out a little ways, there was an old warehouse. Now there are houses and businesses from Las Cruces to the NASA turnoff from U.S. Route 70, with a four lane highway which replaced a two lane road. The WSTF site continued to be kept operational, as well as added capabilities in both engine testing and laboratory functions. The Air Force built a Tracking Data Relay Satellite System [TRSS] adjacent to the 100 area of WSTF.

[Assistant] You mentioned your most significant accomplishment, in you mind, was never having caused a schedule delay. What about the most challenging part of your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked at New Mexico State University [NMSU] for five years as their contracts manager, consulted for Dynaelectron Corporation for about a year. Then I went to work for Cortez III Corporation and worked there for five years. After that, I finally retired.

[Assistant] If you will, looking at the time you were there from 1963 to 1981, if you can give us just an overview, in your mind, of the changes at White Sands Test Facility and how it changed overtime as far as in the Las Cruces area also.

[User] You can’t imagine how Las Cruces has changed. The area was desert all the way out from Las Cruces to WSTF. There was one abandoned service station and on out a little ways, there was an old warehouse. Now there are houses and businesses from Las Cruces to the NASA turnoff from U.S. Route 70, with a four lane highway which replaced a two lane road. The WSTF site continued to be kept operational, as well as added capabilities in both engine testing and laboratory functions. The Air Force built a Tracking Data Relay Satellite System [TRSS] adjacent to the 100 area of WSTF.

[Assistant] You mentioned your most significant accomplishment, in you mind, was never having caused a schedule delay. What about the most challenging part of your job?

[User] I would say the most challenging was meeting the tight schedule requirements and supporting the other offices to meet their requirements. One example comes to mind, the logistics of getting delivery of propellants and gases to meet the test.

[Assistant]
Well, if it is okay with you, at this time I’m going to ask Jennifer and Rebecca if they have any questions. Jennifer?

I have a couple of questions. Did White Sands Test Facility ever do any work with New Mexico State University?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can’t imagine how Las Cruces has changed. The area was desert all the way out from Las Cruces to WSTF. There was one abandoned service station and on out a little ways, there was an old warehouse. Now there are houses and businesses from Las Cruces to the NASA turnoff from U.S. Route 70, with a four lane highway which replaced a two lane road. The WSTF site continued to be kept operational, as well as added capabilities in both engine testing and laboratory functions. The Air Force built a Tracking Data Relay Satellite System [TRSS] adjacent to the 100 area of WSTF.

[Assistant] You mentioned your most significant accomplishment, in you mind, was never having caused a schedule delay. What about the most challenging part of your job?

[User] I would say the most challenging was meeting the tight schedule requirements and supporting the other offices to meet their requirements. One example comes to mind, the logistics of getting delivery of propellants and gases to meet the test.

[Assistant]
Well, if it is okay with you, at this time I’m going to ask Jennifer and Rebecca if they have any questions. Jennifer?

I have a couple of questions. Did White Sands Test Facility ever do any work with New Mexico State University?

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] Could you talk to us a little bit about that relationship and the different programs or type of work that you may have done, generally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say the most challenging was meeting the tight schedule requirements and supporting the other offices to meet their requirements. One example comes to mind, the logistics of getting delivery of propellants and gases to meet the test.

[Assistant]
Well, if it is okay with you, at this time I’m going to ask Jennifer and Rebecca if they have any questions. Jennifer?

I have a couple of questions. Did White Sands Test Facility ever do any work with New Mexico State University?

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] Could you talk to us a little bit about that relationship and the different programs or type of work that you may have done, generally?

[User] When we came to town, the medical facilities were not adequate. Nor were the personnel familiar with how to treat personnel who had been exposed to oxidizer or propellant fuels. The hospital had no method to calibrate their equipment. We did some equipment calibration and set standards for equipment with the medical community as well as the Physical Science Laboratory at NMSU.

[Assistant] I just have one general question. Could you define what procurement is specifically, and then compare and contrast it with things like budget work or contract work? If somebody were to ask you about that, if they wanted to write a paper on procurement, what would you tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] Could you talk to us a little bit about that relationship and the different programs or type of work that you may have done, generally?

[User] When we came to town, the medical facilities were not adequate. Nor were the personnel familiar with how to treat personnel who had been exposed to oxidizer or propellant fuels. The hospital had no method to calibrate their equipment. We did some equipment calibration and set standards for equipment with the medical community as well as the Physical Science Laboratory at NMSU.

[Assistant] I just have one general question. Could you define what procurement is specifically, and then compare and contrast it with things like budget work or contract work? If somebody were to ask you about that, if they wanted to write a paper on procurement, what would you tell them?

[User] The process of obtaining materials and supplies and service support which includes warehousing, surplus disposal and construction contracts.

[Assistant] And how does that differ from doing budget work or contract work? They seem to me to be almost part of that process. They also seem to be different in a sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we came to town, the medical facilities were not adequate. Nor were the personnel familiar with how to treat personnel who had been exposed to oxidizer or propellant fuels. The hospital had no method to calibrate their equipment. We did some equipment calibration and set standards for equipment with the medical community as well as the Physical Science Laboratory at NMSU.

[Assistant] I just have one general question. Could you define what procurement is specifically, and then compare and contrast it with things like budget work or contract work? If somebody were to ask you about that, if they wanted to write a paper on procurement, what would you tell them?

[User] The process of obtaining materials and supplies and service support which includes warehousing, surplus disposal and construction contracts.

[Assistant] And how does that differ from doing budget work or contract work? They seem to me to be almost part of that process. They also seem to be different in a sense.

[User] Oh, I would say quite different. The budget process is developing, planning and tracking costs. Payroll is part of the budget process whereas contracting is very different as defined above.

[Assistant] Since we are interviewing someone who did all of these things, and we are going to be interviewing other people from these areas, I thought it would be a good idea for us to get a good grasp of what these different areas entailed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The process of obtaining materials and supplies and service support which includes warehousing, surplus disposal and construction contracts.

[Assistant] And how does that differ from doing budget work or contract work? They seem to me to be almost part of that process. They also seem to be different in a sense.

[User] Oh, I would say quite different. The budget process is developing, planning and tracking costs. Payroll is part of the budget process whereas contracting is very different as defined above.

[Assistant] Since we are interviewing someone who did all of these things, and we are going to be interviewing other people from these areas, I thought it would be a good idea for us to get a good grasp of what these different areas entailed.

[User] Did I explain it enough for you?

[Assistant] I think so, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I would say quite different. The budget process is developing, planning and tracking costs. Payroll is part of the budget process whereas contracting is very different as defined above.

[Assistant] Since we are interviewing someone who did all of these things, and we are going to be interviewing other people from these areas, I thought it would be a good idea for us to get a good grasp of what these different areas entailed.

[User] Did I explain it enough for you?

[Assistant] I think so, yes.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant]
That’s all the questions I have.

I have a couple, and they’re not related. I want to go back, and you originally were talking about the first couple of years that you were here and when you arrived you had pretty much a budget that wasn’t—or maybe was—an unlimited budget. You had money that you could spend. You didn’t have auditing. Can you give us the background on this? Where did that come from, and did you know that when you walked in the door, that the first two years it was kind of open at that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did I explain it enough for you?

[Assistant] I think so, yes.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant]
That’s all the questions I have.

I have a couple, and they’re not related. I want to go back, and you originally were talking about the first couple of years that you were here and when you arrived you had pretty much a budget that wasn’t—or maybe was—an unlimited budget. You had money that you could spend. You didn’t have auditing. Can you give us the background on this? Where did that come from, and did you know that when you walked in the door, that the first two years it was kind of open at that?

[User] The President gave us this task of sending a man to the Moon and returning him, in this decade. The budget was developed by NASA and submitted to Congress. We didn’t have any cost time, so it was just a matter of best guess and past experience. I found out later that even though we seemed to have plenty of budget, we still had our budget reviews with JSC. Initially they were on a monthly basis. We were required to submit our budgets to JSC for approval.

[Assistant] My last question is, you talked about different relationships between the military agencies and between the contractors, but when you and others moved into Las Cruces, how did the community receive you, and how did that change over the years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant]
That’s all the questions I have.

I have a couple, and they’re not related. I want to go back, and you originally were talking about the first couple of years that you were here and when you arrived you had pretty much a budget that wasn’t—or maybe was—an unlimited budget. You had money that you could spend. You didn’t have auditing. Can you give us the background on this? Where did that come from, and did you know that when you walked in the door, that the first two years it was kind of open at that?

[User] The President gave us this task of sending a man to the Moon and returning him, in this decade. The budget was developed by NASA and submitted to Congress. We didn’t have any cost time, so it was just a matter of best guess and past experience. I found out later that even though we seemed to have plenty of budget, we still had our budget reviews with JSC. Initially they were on a monthly basis. We were required to submit our budgets to JSC for approval.

[Assistant] My last question is, you talked about different relationships between the military agencies and between the contractors, but when you and others moved into Las Cruces, how did the community receive you, and how did that change over the years?

[User] The biggest problem that my office had was dealing with local vendors. They were used to supplying common items they had in stock and if there was a requirement for something not in stock, it would take two to six weeks to get it. NASA’s policy was to contract first in the state of New Mexico and the city of Las Cruces.

[Assistant] How the community received you and the people and how that changed over the years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The biggest problem that my office had was dealing with local vendors. They were used to supplying common items they had in stock and if there was a requirement for something not in stock, it would take two to six weeks to get it. NASA’s policy was to contract first in the state of New Mexico and the city of Las Cruces.

[Assistant] How the community received you and the people and how that changed over the years.

[User] When we first arrived in Las Cruces, it was a sleepy, little town. It was the land of manana. It is still somewhat the land of manana. When I first arrived, Mr. Hugh Milton, former Under Secretary of Defense, personally met me and drove me around town to look for a house to rent or buy. This is representative of how the community of Las Cruces thought of NASA folks. When my supervisor told me who he was, I couldn’t believe it. Another example, invitations were sent to all the realtors in Las Cruces to come to WSTF and work with NASA on helping with housing for NASA and the contractor’s employees. Only one realtor responded and came to WSTF to determine NASA requirements. For example, if we had North American coming to Las Cruces, that was all you had to tell him. He made up packets and sent them to incoming personnel. Told them he would meet them at the airport, inform them what housing was available, price range, etc. He provided similar services when they were leaving. He provided excellent support to personnel coming in or moving out.

[Assistant] I thought of something while you were talking with Jennifer about the accidents and that sort of thing. Was there any type of training for safety available, and did that come out of your office?

[User] No, not from my office. We had a Safety Office and the Safety Officer worked on the staff of the manager. He had an ongoing safety training program for WSTF personnel. His safety training was very effective. There was only one major accident and no deaths in the course of the total test program at WSTF, while I was there.

[Assistant] Is there anything in closing that you’d like to say or anything we didn’t cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we first arrived in Las Cruces, it was a sleepy, little town. It was the land of manana. It is still somewhat the land of manana. When I first arrived, Mr. Hugh Milton, former Under Secretary of Defense, personally met me and drove me around town to look for a house to rent or buy. This is representative of how the community of Las Cruces thought of NASA folks. When my supervisor told me who he was, I couldn’t believe it. Another example, invitations were sent to all the realtors in Las Cruces to come to WSTF and work with NASA on helping with housing for NASA and the contractor’s employees. Only one realtor responded and came to WSTF to determine NASA requirements. For example, if we had North American coming to Las Cruces, that was all you had to tell him. He made up packets and sent them to incoming personnel. Told them he would meet them at the airport, inform them what housing was available, price range, etc. He provided similar services when they were leaving. He provided excellent support to personnel coming in or moving out.

[Assistant] I thought of something while you were talking with Jennifer about the accidents and that sort of thing. Was there any type of training for safety available, and did that come out of your office?

[User] No, not from my office. We had a Safety Office and the Safety Officer worked on the staff of the manager. He had an ongoing safety training program for WSTF personnel. His safety training was very effective. There was only one major accident and no deaths in the course of the total test program at WSTF, while I was there.

[Assistant] Is there anything in closing that you’d like to say or anything we didn’t cover?

[User] Yes, I would like to say that I was always proud to be part of NASA and the work they did and the way they did it. I was glad to be a member of the team.

[Assistant] We want to thank you for being here with us this afternoon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I have it.

[Assistant] That 2006 article about what we love about JSC. I thought that might just be nice for you to end on that note. What do you love about JSC? What are you going to miss?

[User] The things that I read were the ones that really struck me, because I would read them and say, “Well, that’s exactly what I love about JSC too,” that there’s a feeling of family here, that teamwork is really important, that we’re all focused on making the mission successful, that we have friends at work, that we come here every day and we’re working with our friends. Those are the things I really love about JSC and that’s why I picked those particular quotes. Although there was a whole bunch of really good ones in that article. I had a hard time narrowing it down. I think I picked four or something.

[Assistant] I think those were all of my questions. I think we did a thorough job capturing your tenure.

[User] All right, thank you.

[Assistant] But I wasn’t sure if there was anything else you might [want to talk about].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The things that I read were the ones that really struck me, because I would read them and say, “Well, that’s exactly what I love about JSC too,” that there’s a feeling of family here, that teamwork is really important, that we’re all focused on making the mission successful, that we have friends at work, that we come here every day and we’re working with our friends. Those are the things I really love about JSC and that’s why I picked those particular quotes. Although there was a whole bunch of really good ones in that article. I had a hard time narrowing it down. I think I picked four or something.

[Assistant] I think those were all of my questions. I think we did a thorough job capturing your tenure.

[User] All right, thank you.

[Assistant] But I wasn’t sure if there was anything else you might [want to talk about].

[User] Oh gosh, I don’t know, I can’t even remember what I talked about in all of our sessions. I don’t know. I’m sure there are things I should be mentioning that I haven’t thought of.

[Assistant] Maybe we’ll come up to Boise. It’d be a good excuse. Thank you very much for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fort Knox [Kentucky]. It wasn’t really near. They used to fly out of Fort Knox at the time. I think now there’s helicopters there, but there used to be some fixed-wings that went in and out of there. But that was it. My only introduction was looking up and seeing that streak across the sky. So that was it.

[Assistant] Did you have any interest in the space program?

[User] None. Of course we, like everybody else my age, we watched the Apollo landings and were fascinated by that. But that came afterwards when I was working as a test pilot. My desire was to get back into what we called a gun squadron or fighter fleet, [McDonnell Douglas] F-18 [Hornet] squadron. The Marine Corps wanted to send me for a one-year unaccompanied tour to Okinawa as the Assistant Admin [Administrative] Officer, because I’d done nothing but fly in the Marine Corps, and it was my turn to push paper. I disagreed with that, and that friend of mine that was already in the Astronaut Office, another marine fighter pilot, he talked to me and said, “Hey, Terry, instead of getting out of the Marine Corps, why don’t you consider putting in an application at NASA?”\n\n Once I spent some time thinking about how great that would be—because when you work as a test pilot you’re working with some really really sharp engineers and I was going to miss that. I thought gosh, you would do the same thing with not just exceptionally sharp engineers, but scientists, project managers. That seemed pretty attractive to me. So I did put in that application and was fortunate enough to be selected.

[Assistant] Was that Bryan [D.] O’Connor?

[User] No, it was Andy [Andrew M.] Allen. Of course I met Bryan later in the Office. But I think he got busy doing management jobs soon after I came to the office.

[Assistant] I was looking in your bio. Fairly quickly you were accepted into TOPGUN [training]. Can you talk about that opportunity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seemed like everything went well. So actually I didn’t spend any time worrying about it at all. The Marine Corps changed their mind about my orders to Okinawa and were offering me a seat in a gun squadron, which is what I wanted. I would have been happy either way. One was again to go back to the Fleet Marine Force and the other one was to go fly Space Shuttles. It’s not a bad deal either way. But I enjoyed that week and to this day I think about it as a pleasant memory. So regardless of what would have happened, I would have been okay.\n\n I’m glad things turned out the way they did, but I have to assume the other one would have been equally fun or just about equally fun.

[Assistant] You had a fairly large class and you guys came up with the nickname the Hairballs.

[User] Not all of us came up with that. The more vocal group thought that would be it. The rest of us didn’t care.

[Assistant] Can you tell us the history behind that?

[User] No, I actually can’t. I don’t know. There were worse ones. That was the most acceptable of the ones they came up with. So I don’t know. You ask enough members of my class, somebody’ll probably be able to tell you what that was.

[Assistant] Tell us about some of the training that you had to participate in when you first came down as an ASCAN [Astronaut Candidate].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think most of us, certainly all the pilots, did some of the work in the simulator out at [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] on that. I think Jim [James D.] Wetherbee ran that project. I could be wrong about that but that’s who I remember as running the project. Then we would go out and do runs to see what would be acceptable crosswind limits and procedures on it. I would be pretty confident saying that probably every pilot participated in those test runs. Every single one of our former test pilots, they were used to determining acceptable handling qualities. I would have been one of those.

[Assistant] Did you ever get a chance to go out to [NASA] Stennis [Space Center, Mississippi] when they were testing any of the engines?

[User] Oh, you bet. Matter of fact, our class did while we were still ASCANS in that first year. They took us out to Stennis to watch an SSME fire. Very impressive. It made you appreciate the engineers that designed the thing, because the amount of thrust on that, and to think that you’re going to sit on top of it, like I said, it was impressive.

[Assistant] I’ve never seen one, but from the videos it’s just amazing.

[User] I hope you do, because you don’t just see it, you feel it. Of course the acoustics coming out of there, it vibrates your chest, everything around. It’s an experience.

[Assistant] One of the other things I noticed you did is you worked as a Cape Crusader out in Florida. Can you talk about that and when you got involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope you do, because you don’t just see it, you feel it. Of course the acoustics coming out of there, it vibrates your chest, everything around. It’s an experience.

[Assistant] One of the other things I noticed you did is you worked as a Cape Crusader out in Florida. Can you talk about that and when you got involved?

[User] Another great job, I don’t remember the years, because I did that a couple times. But you work at KSC to help with the processing of the Shuttle and getting it ready for launch. That is a wonderful job for an astronaut because you’re inside the actual Shuttle a lot. That’s different than being in the simulators over here, to be inside the actual hardware.\n\n Frankly, when you fly in space, you’re already used to the Shuttle being in the vertical. That can be disorienting a little bit for new guys that have never spent any time in the actual Shuttle. But you’re perfectly at home in the Shuttle. You know where things are. You don’t have any being disoriented due to attitude. You get used to throwing switches on the real hardware. I just think that’s a great job. Plus, you strap in the crews. When some of your friends are getting in, you’re the last person in there. You strap them in, close the hatch, get them on their way. It’s a wonderful job, lots of responsibility, because there’s 2,000 switches, circuit breakers inside the Shuttle. You are the team, with the folks at KSC of course, making sure that every one of those goes in the right position before you launch your pals on their mission. It’s another good job for anyone, particularly a pilot.

[Assistant] I think I read somewhere that it’s the next best thing to flying in space, someone said.

[User] I don’t know about that. It’s good.

[Assistant] Doesn’t come close, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We go inside the spaceship, make sure they’re in good shape, help them unstrap. Then we take over for the commander. There’s still some switches that have to be thrown post landing for cooling and power-down. The sooner we got in, the sooner the commander and the crew could get out, because we would take over those functions. If any of them needed anything then we would take care of that. They’re your friends, we’re all part of the Astronaut Office. We would just get in there to provide whatever assistance would be required and to relieve them so they could get out and start the postlanding things that astronauts have to do, medical things.

[Assistant] Great job. How many days would you be out there before they would land?

[User] Oh, day before, something like that. There wasn’t any reason to be out there earlier. The folks at either place, they know what they’re doing. If they were going to come in tomorrow then we’d fly out there sometime today to get ready, participate in the prebriefs where you go over everyone’s role, and then get ready for the landing. It was well orchestrated. Again Edwards and KSC, they both knew what they were supposed to do, knew how to do it well.

[Assistant] Sounds like a great job.

[User] Gosh, it’s wonderful. Again, it’s real hardware and those are your friends on board. It’s nice to get in there and see they’re all okay, relieve them of the burden of throwing the switches, and let them get out and start getting comfortable.

[Assistant] I imagine after so many days in space they’re ready to stretch their legs so to speak.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. That was one because that’s a lot of night work in that. You tried to limit the time that any one person had to do those kind of things. When you had a burden like that it’s nice to share the burden. Plus, that was another. Gosh, that was a wealth of experience to be gained from working in the SAIL. If you had a new one, or you had someone that could benefit from that kind of training, then you’d put them in there for a while. There’s no bad deal in there. It’s a good thing. The only thing that would perhaps make it a bad deal would be schedule. But it’s such an honor to do any of those jobs that you really don’t have any problem with it.\n\n Everyone understands that that kind of burden has to be shared. You can’t leave somebody on something like that forever. But when I say burden, the burden is minor compared to the training that you get from working a job like SAIL. It was definitely worthwhile.

[Assistant] Did you spend time in SAIL yourself?

[User] Sure. Even as chief of that section of the office. It’s only fair. Why shouldn’t I do nights occasionally? Again, it’s a great thing.

[Assistant] I’m looking at the clock. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your time in Russia over at the Gagarin Training Center. But I wasn’t sure if you wanted to stop here and pick up next time.

[User] It’s up to you. How many questions do you have?\n\n JOHNSON: You have a long career.

[Assistant] It’ll take us a while to get through all of what we have. Plus you have four missions too. I don’t know if you just want to stop here. We can pick up next time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Even as chief of that section of the office. It’s only fair. Why shouldn’t I do nights occasionally? Again, it’s a great thing.

[Assistant] I’m looking at the clock. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your time in Russia over at the Gagarin Training Center. But I wasn’t sure if you wanted to stop here and pick up next time.

[User] It’s up to you. How many questions do you have?\n\n JOHNSON: You have a long career.

[Assistant] It’ll take us a while to get through all of what we have. Plus you have four missions too. I don’t know if you just want to stop here. We can pick up next time.

[User] There’s more than 10 minutes’ worth of time in Russia.

[Assistant] That’s what I was thinking. I don’t want to rush that. I’m sure that was a fascinating experience living over there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For my interview?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes. Yes, and it was mid-March, and the weather was perfect, and the mockingbirds were up in the trees, and it was gorgeous. Little did I know what it was going to be like in July. When we moved down, it was a record-breaking heat wave and I was in an un-air-conditioned U-haul truck with all my belongings in the back, hauling across Texas with a governor in [the truck], and it was unbelievable. Yes, Houston’s a little tough in the summer.

[Assistant] The adventure had begun. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, that’s right. The climatic adventure had begun, that’s right. That was a challenge I never really met. I never got used to the climate. It was just too hot for me.

[Assistant] It hasn’t got any better; it’s still pretty hot. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, and it was mid-March, and the weather was perfect, and the mockingbirds were up in the trees, and it was gorgeous. Little did I know what it was going to be like in July. When we moved down, it was a record-breaking heat wave and I was in an un-air-conditioned U-haul truck with all my belongings in the back, hauling across Texas with a governor in [the truck], and it was unbelievable. Yes, Houston’s a little tough in the summer.

[Assistant] The adventure had begun. [Laughter]

[User] Yes, that’s right. The climatic adventure had begun, that’s right. That was a challenge I never really met. I never got used to the climate. It was just too hot for me.

[Assistant] It hasn’t got any better; it’s still pretty hot. [Laughter]

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Except today; it’s pretty cold here today. The interview process—before we actually get into your moving—were you surprised at any of the questions they asked, or did you feel like you were prepared for that whole process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s right. The climatic adventure had begun, that’s right. That was a challenge I never really met. I never got used to the climate. It was just too hot for me.

[Assistant] It hasn’t got any better; it’s still pretty hot. [Laughter]

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Except today; it’s pretty cold here today. The interview process—before we actually get into your moving—were you surprised at any of the questions they asked, or did you feel like you were prepared for that whole process?

[User] It was the funniest interview I’d ever been in, because I came from academia and I was a research engineer, and so I was totally prepared to go in and knock their socks off with my technical ability, and the first question was, “So, did you play any sports in high school?” [Laughs] I went—because I was just—it was just totally unexpected, and it went on from there, because I didn’t really understand what they were looking for. This was not a technical interview, because I wasn’t going to be asked to go, necessarily, do my technical work. I was being asked to go do other people’s technical work. So it ended up being, I think, much more an interview where they were trying to probe whether I was going to thrive in that environment, which was my take on it afterwards. But, yes, it was very unusual.

[Assistant] Any other aspects? They gave you a tour? Or what other parts of the process did you go through when you were being interviewed as a candidate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, or “sanitary fairy.” Yes, yes.

[Assistant] I’m sure Captain Young must have enjoyed giving you all types of tasks to do.

[User] Yes, he did, and, in fact, to this day, when I go down to Houston, I stay with John and Susie, because I think he felt so bad because he kept giving me all these dumpy jobs to do. [Laughs] But it was good. I was happy to do it and that kind of stuff. So, yes.

[Assistant] When you mentioned about the interview, that you were thinking they were going to talk to you about your technical experience, at what point or did at any point in your training, did you feel like your technical experience and your background helped you get your jobs done?

[User] Well, it helped me a lot. In the classes, there were times—as a sanitary engineer, I had a lot of fluid flow, Reynolds numbers, and that kind of stuff, but it was all in the inside of pipes. I remember sitting in this aero class, and all of a sudden I was looking at the bookwork and I started saying, “My god, this airplane is just an inside-out sewer pipe.” I sort of shared my great “aha” with my classmates, and none of the test pilots were at all impressed with this great visualization of their airplane being an inside-out sewer pipe. [Laughter] But it really was. So, yes, there were things like that that happened. And when it came to life-support stuff, yes, I did a lot of work, and I really worked based on what I had learned in school.

[Assistant] We know that Mr. Abbey assigned you to the Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he did, and, in fact, to this day, when I go down to Houston, I stay with John and Susie, because I think he felt so bad because he kept giving me all these dumpy jobs to do. [Laughs] But it was good. I was happy to do it and that kind of stuff. So, yes.

[Assistant] When you mentioned about the interview, that you were thinking they were going to talk to you about your technical experience, at what point or did at any point in your training, did you feel like your technical experience and your background helped you get your jobs done?

[User] Well, it helped me a lot. In the classes, there were times—as a sanitary engineer, I had a lot of fluid flow, Reynolds numbers, and that kind of stuff, but it was all in the inside of pipes. I remember sitting in this aero class, and all of a sudden I was looking at the bookwork and I started saying, “My god, this airplane is just an inside-out sewer pipe.” I sort of shared my great “aha” with my classmates, and none of the test pilots were at all impressed with this great visualization of their airplane being an inside-out sewer pipe. [Laughter] But it really was. So, yes, there were things like that that happened. And when it came to life-support stuff, yes, I did a lot of work, and I really worked based on what I had learned in school.

[Assistant] We know that Mr. Abbey assigned you to the Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about your experiences there and the duties that you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it helped me a lot. In the classes, there were times—as a sanitary engineer, I had a lot of fluid flow, Reynolds numbers, and that kind of stuff, but it was all in the inside of pipes. I remember sitting in this aero class, and all of a sudden I was looking at the bookwork and I started saying, “My god, this airplane is just an inside-out sewer pipe.” I sort of shared my great “aha” with my classmates, and none of the test pilots were at all impressed with this great visualization of their airplane being an inside-out sewer pipe. [Laughter] But it really was. So, yes, there were things like that that happened. And when it came to life-support stuff, yes, I did a lot of work, and I really worked based on what I had learned in school.

[Assistant] We know that Mr. Abbey assigned you to the Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about your experiences there and the duties that you had?

[User] We were testing flight software, and a lot of what we were doing was just running different scenarios, and it was fun. For me it was fun, because usually I was assigned—there was a pilot and a mission specialist assigned, and we’d do the payload stuff. But a lot of times we’d end up having to fly or help fly scenarios. When you’re working a simulator, it’s up a lot and then it’s down a lot, so it gives you time to really get to know everybody. The people you’re assigned to, you get to share war stories. So it was a lot of fun, really get to know people that way. For me, it was really good training.

[Assistant] At what point did you get moved into doing the CapCom work? Were you there for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about your experiences there and the duties that you had?

[User] We were testing flight software, and a lot of what we were doing was just running different scenarios, and it was fun. For me it was fun, because usually I was assigned—there was a pilot and a mission specialist assigned, and we’d do the payload stuff. But a lot of times we’d end up having to fly or help fly scenarios. When you’re working a simulator, it’s up a lot and then it’s down a lot, so it gives you time to really get to know everybody. The people you’re assigned to, you get to share war stories. So it was a lot of fun, really get to know people that way. For me, it was really good training.

[Assistant] At what point did you get moved into doing the CapCom work? Were you there for a while?

[User] I know I was there for STS-7 because I was on when Sally [K. Ride]—we were the first female-female connection.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk more about that, since you brought that up, about that mission and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were testing flight software, and a lot of what we were doing was just running different scenarios, and it was fun. For me it was fun, because usually I was assigned—there was a pilot and a mission specialist assigned, and we’d do the payload stuff. But a lot of times we’d end up having to fly or help fly scenarios. When you’re working a simulator, it’s up a lot and then it’s down a lot, so it gives you time to really get to know everybody. The people you’re assigned to, you get to share war stories. So it was a lot of fun, really get to know people that way. For me, it was really good training.

[Assistant] At what point did you get moved into doing the CapCom work? Were you there for a while?

[User] I know I was there for STS-7 because I was on when Sally [K. Ride]—we were the first female-female connection.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk more about that, since you brought that up, about that mission and—

[User] Well, no, I mean—

[Assistant] —your memories about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know I was there for STS-7 because I was on when Sally [K. Ride]—we were the first female-female connection.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk more about that, since you brought that up, about that mission and—

[User] Well, no, I mean—

[Assistant] —your memories about that?

[User] No, I didn’t even notice it. Here’s Sally and I, we didn’t even notice it. But I was on duty, and one female reporter, who will go unnamed, afterwards said, “Mary, it was so disappointing.”\n\n And I said, “What do you mean?”\n\n “You and Sally just had a normal conversation.”\n\n “Yeah. We were working.”\n\n “Well, you should have said something special for this momentous occasion.”\n\n “What momentous—?”\n\n “First female-to-female communication.”\n\n And I went, “Oh, we didn’t notice.” [Laughter] Sort of like, “Well, I’m sorry I disappointed you, but really we didn’t notice it.”

[Assistant] Just doing your job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, I mean—

[Assistant] —your memories about that?

[User] No, I didn’t even notice it. Here’s Sally and I, we didn’t even notice it. But I was on duty, and one female reporter, who will go unnamed, afterwards said, “Mary, it was so disappointing.”\n\n And I said, “What do you mean?”\n\n “You and Sally just had a normal conversation.”\n\n “Yeah. We were working.”\n\n “Well, you should have said something special for this momentous occasion.”\n\n “What momentous—?”\n\n “First female-to-female communication.”\n\n And I went, “Oh, we didn’t notice.” [Laughter] Sort of like, “Well, I’m sorry I disappointed you, but really we didn’t notice it.”

[Assistant] Just doing your job.

[User] Yes, yes. And that was good. That was really good. That was fun.

[Assistant] You mentioned that off and on, about this new beginning and new era of women. Did you feel any kind of resentment from the test pilots or any type of animosity with your other astronauts, or did everyone just feel like you were just there working as astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t even notice it. Here’s Sally and I, we didn’t even notice it. But I was on duty, and one female reporter, who will go unnamed, afterwards said, “Mary, it was so disappointing.”\n\n And I said, “What do you mean?”\n\n “You and Sally just had a normal conversation.”\n\n “Yeah. We were working.”\n\n “Well, you should have said something special for this momentous occasion.”\n\n “What momentous—?”\n\n “First female-to-female communication.”\n\n And I went, “Oh, we didn’t notice.” [Laughter] Sort of like, “Well, I’m sorry I disappointed you, but really we didn’t notice it.”

[Assistant] Just doing your job.

[User] Yes, yes. And that was good. That was really good. That was fun.

[Assistant] You mentioned that off and on, about this new beginning and new era of women. Did you feel any kind of resentment from the test pilots or any type of animosity with your other astronauts, or did everyone just feel like you were just there working as astronauts?

[User] No, I never got any feeling of overt anything. There were issues to deal with all the time. These guys, when you change society like that, these guys are all dealing with having to go out in the field with women in a situation where their spouses weren’t used to this kind of brave new world, and so there were issues you had to deal with in that situation. I’m sure it would have been easier for them not to have to deal with it, but they did that.\n\n Some of the guys didn’t want to fly with women because of that, so you might have had a little—I mean, the only thing I ever really noticed was you might have had a little more trouble trying to get your flight time in back seats just because some of the guys are reticent to go TDY [Temporary Duty] with you, because they got pressure from at home. Other than that—

[Assistant] But the duties assigned—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I found out I was selected from the crew like everybody else finds out: George [Abbey] told me. You don’t know, and then George calls you over and you find out.\n\n That first crew was great. The D.C. contingent, Bryan [D.] O’Connor and Woody [Sherwood C.] Spring and I, still get together two or three times a year. Our families all get together. It’s almost like we—and Jerry [L.] Ross. When I’m down here, I always see him. To me, it was sort of like an extended family. All of us were rookies except for the commander, [Brewster H. Shaw, Jr.], so we were all sharing this for the first time around. We had to train for two years, and we flew three semi-payloads, because there were so many manifest bumps, that we were training together all the time. We just got to know each other really well. It was great. We just had a great flight; everything went well. The EVAs [Extravehicular Activity] were fabulous.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea that you were going to be selected for this flight?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No indication?

[User] No, no. I didn’t really expect to be selected yet, but I was happy. And Bryan O’Connor and I, when we first got down, we were doing our initial skit for our class. You do all these skits. He did a Guido Sarducci kind of comedy routine, so we were the first “mother-father” team in space. We figured George probably assigned us to a flight together because of that skit. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, that’s a new reason.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No indication?

[User] No, no. I didn’t really expect to be selected yet, but I was happy. And Bryan O’Connor and I, when we first got down, we were doing our initial skit for our class. You do all these skits. He did a Guido Sarducci kind of comedy routine, so we were the first “mother-father” team in space. We figured George probably assigned us to a flight together because of that skit. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, that’s a new reason.

[User] Well, we were just teasing.

[Assistant] No, I know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did crew family escort afterwards. I was assigned to help when the families came down, as an escort both at JSC when the President came in to do the memorial service. I was working at—Jim [James F.] Buchli was in charge of the group. They put a marine in charge of the Honor Guard. So I got to learn to be an escort from a marine, which was interesting. I learned how to open up doors. This was sort of like it doesn’t matter if you’re a girl or boy, there’s a certain way people need to be treated when they’re escorted. So I did that. That was interesting. And it was nice to think that you could help at that point, because they had people from the corps assigned to all the families to try to help them.\n\n Then my official duty, I really just sort of worked at what I was working at, and then when they located the crew compartment, I got assigned to be in charge of the area where they brought the crew compartment back, probably because I’d been working the personal-equipment issues, so I understood how they recorded numbers and kept track of all that stuff.

[Assistant] I guess it was a very good piece of news when you found out you were going to get to take your second mission then.

[User] It was wonderful. It was wonderful. We were all really working hard supporting the twenty-sixth flight. We were all really busy, because after the flight, we were extremely busy because we did a piece-by-piece safety review, and that took an incredible amount of time and incredible effort.

[Assistant] You think your contributions during that time period were implemented or at least listened to?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you were the first woman to fly after the Challenger accident. Did you feel like there was any pressure or any undue attention that was given to you because of that?