[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the, um. But my remembrance is there was teaching, was the students during the breaks when school was over.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They would have all their, all their bags and packed up and their suitcases and their trunks waiting, waiting out in front for the lorries to come pick them up to take them back to their homes for the time. That was a big deal.

[Assistant] So during your first year there, you tended to, you would often on a weekend would.

[User] Take off.

[Assistant] To take off and go up to Kumasi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would have all their, all their bags and packed up and their suitcases and their trunks waiting, waiting out in front for the lorries to come pick them up to take them back to their homes for the time. That was a big deal.

[Assistant] So during your first year there, you tended to, you would often on a weekend would.

[User] Take off.

[Assistant] To take off and go up to Kumasi.

[User] Or somewhere else.

[Assistant] Down to Takoradi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't go to Takoradi so much, but Kumasi, yeah. And then at the, it was unique there because at the end of the first semester.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The Ghanaians, when we happened to be there, they were changing. They changed semester, when semester starts and stops.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So they actually had a month and a half of break in December. So I was there, taught for a couple of three or four, three months or so, and then they had a whole month and a half off or two months almost before they started up again. So. I don't.

[Assistant] Do you remember what you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Ghanaians, when we happened to be there, they were changing. They changed semester, when semester starts and stops.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So they actually had a month and a half of break in December. So I was there, taught for a couple of three or four, three months or so, and then they had a whole month and a half off or two months almost before they started up again. So. I don't.

[Assistant] Do you remember what you did?

[User] Yeah I remember what I did. I went to Timbuktu. I took the lorry up to northern Ghana and Mali and up to Mopti. And went, floated down the river on the barges and.

[Assistant] Travel alone or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they actually had a month and a half of break in December. So I was there, taught for a couple of three or four, three months or so, and then they had a whole month and a half off or two months almost before they started up again. So. I don't.

[Assistant] Do you remember what you did?

[User] Yeah I remember what I did. I went to Timbuktu. I took the lorry up to northern Ghana and Mali and up to Mopti. And went, floated down the river on the barges and.

[Assistant] Travel alone or?

[User] Mostly alone. But there were Peace Corps volunteers pretty much everywhere. So like in Mopti there were Peace Corps volunteers. And even in Ouagadougou, which is up in, which is a way out of the way kind of place up there, there wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer, but there was an American guy that was up there and we could stay with him. And we found somebody to stay with all this. I didn't know where I was going to stay every night. You know, you don't know where you're going to stay the next night.

[Assistant] But you were footloose and fancy loose.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah I remember what I did. I went to Timbuktu. I took the lorry up to northern Ghana and Mali and up to Mopti. And went, floated down the river on the barges and.

[Assistant] Travel alone or?

[User] Mostly alone. But there were Peace Corps volunteers pretty much everywhere. So like in Mopti there were Peace Corps volunteers. And even in Ouagadougou, which is up in, which is a way out of the way kind of place up there, there wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer, but there was an American guy that was up there and we could stay with him. And we found somebody to stay with all this. I didn't know where I was going to stay every night. You know, you don't know where you're going to stay the next night.

[Assistant] But you were footloose and fancy loose.

[User] I was footloose and I was going to going to experiment and explore and see how far I could go, what things I could do.

[Assistant] And you enjoyed that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly alone. But there were Peace Corps volunteers pretty much everywhere. So like in Mopti there were Peace Corps volunteers. And even in Ouagadougou, which is up in, which is a way out of the way kind of place up there, there wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer, but there was an American guy that was up there and we could stay with him. And we found somebody to stay with all this. I didn't know where I was going to stay every night. You know, you don't know where you're going to stay the next night.

[Assistant] But you were footloose and fancy loose.

[User] I was footloose and I was going to going to experiment and explore and see how far I could go, what things I could do.

[Assistant] And you enjoyed that?

[User] I enjoyed it, yeah. I took a lot of notes and took photographs and that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Now, so there was this couple weeks of teaching. Then there was the big break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was footloose and I was going to going to experiment and explore and see how far I could go, what things I could do.

[Assistant] And you enjoyed that?

[User] I enjoyed it, yeah. I took a lot of notes and took photographs and that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Now, so there was this couple weeks of teaching. Then there was the big break.

[User] And then a couple of months of teaching, then a big break. Then I came back and taught the rest of the year. Then the summertime. Then we had summer break. Then the second year.

[Assistant] OK, let's stay within the first year. Do you recall what was your contact with Peace Corps during that time, the Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then a couple of months of teaching, then a big break. Then I came back and taught the rest of the year. Then the summertime. Then we had summer break. Then the second year.

[Assistant] OK, let's stay within the first year. Do you recall what was your contact with Peace Corps during that time, the Peace Corps staff?

[User] The major contact with the Peace Corps staff was only really when I would go to Accra occasionally, and they had a big three-story building, was it?

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] For the Peace Corps volunteers, like a youth hostel set up for there. And it was all nice, a nice place to stay and so forth. Beyond that, the Peace Corps staff had very little to do.

[Assistant] You didn't have visitors that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The major contact with the Peace Corps staff was only really when I would go to Accra occasionally, and they had a big three-story building, was it?

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] For the Peace Corps volunteers, like a youth hostel set up for there. And it was all nice, a nice place to stay and so forth. Beyond that, the Peace Corps staff had very little to do.

[Assistant] You didn't have visitors that you recall?

[User] Not up there. The biggest thing I remember is we had a big trunk of, a whole trunk of books arrived, one for each of us, with uh.

[Assistant] It's supposed to be a book locker.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not up there. The biggest thing I remember is we had a big trunk of, a whole trunk of books arrived, one for each of us, with uh.

[Assistant] It's supposed to be a book locker.

[User] A kind of foot locker, which we were supposed to give out to people or read or do something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We did take a couple of trips up to. The kids loved, it was great, Shakespeare. Of course, as you said, they could, they learned how to memorize. And so there was a Shakespeare troupe that was coming through Kumasi. And so we took the lorry up and went for an afternoon and they saw Shakespeare. And it was a, and it was a great experience for them because, you know, they would mouth all the words, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, and you'd hear this echo out in the audience, these kids.

[Assistant] So let's go back to the school setting. It's a boarding school setting and very often the faculty have additional duties like a house master or a sports master. Do you recall any activities like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so whenever the new student would come up to join the school, it was his, it was his decision whether the student got in school or not. He was the arbitrator of whether he accepted the student or not.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] He only accepted students that were shorter than him. Because he didn't want the kid to turn around and beat him up. So he told us, he said, listen, Don, the kids are not, the boys are not being messing up the toilets because they're being nasty or anything. They just don't know how to use them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And so if you teach all the kids to sit on the toilets, it would be, we're going to not have this problem of cleaning the toilets all the time. So Don was in there. And so I remember this one day with Don. Don was giving the talk to the, we had 15 Ghanaian students around us. He was standing on the toilet in the stall and I was in the back listening to this thing. And he was saying, listen, this is a European instrument, the toilet. In fact, it's the WC, the English word. It flushes things over a little ledge. And he says, if you use the European instrument toilet in the European way, if we all sit on it, then we won't get messy. And obviously, if someone messes up the toilet seat, the next person's got to stand on it. He's not going to sit on it, and so forth and so on.

And so if, so one of the Ghanaian students, I guess he'd been sort of looking through the windows at us. He said if us Ghanaians use that European instrument in the European way, our long African penises are going to dangle in the water. And that was a kick. That was such a kick.

[Assistant] Yeah. Other than the housemaster responsibilities, did you do any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He only accepted students that were shorter than him. Because he didn't want the kid to turn around and beat him up. So he told us, he said, listen, Don, the kids are not, the boys are not being messing up the toilets because they're being nasty or anything. They just don't know how to use them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And so if you teach all the kids to sit on the toilets, it would be, we're going to not have this problem of cleaning the toilets all the time. So Don was in there. And so I remember this one day with Don. Don was giving the talk to the, we had 15 Ghanaian students around us. He was standing on the toilet in the stall and I was in the back listening to this thing. And he was saying, listen, this is a European instrument, the toilet. In fact, it's the WC, the English word. It flushes things over a little ledge. And he says, if you use the European instrument toilet in the European way, if we all sit on it, then we won't get messy. And obviously, if someone messes up the toilet seat, the next person's got to stand on it. He's not going to sit on it, and so forth and so on.

And so if, so one of the Ghanaian students, I guess he'd been sort of looking through the windows at us. He said if us Ghanaians use that European instrument in the European way, our long African penises are going to dangle in the water. And that was a kick. That was such a kick.

[Assistant] Yeah. Other than the housemaster responsibilities, did you do any?

[User] That's about it. We had, we had that. We.

[Assistant] Did you get involved in the sports at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And so if you teach all the kids to sit on the toilets, it would be, we're going to not have this problem of cleaning the toilets all the time. So Don was in there. And so I remember this one day with Don. Don was giving the talk to the, we had 15 Ghanaian students around us. He was standing on the toilet in the stall and I was in the back listening to this thing. And he was saying, listen, this is a European instrument, the toilet. In fact, it's the WC, the English word. It flushes things over a little ledge. And he says, if you use the European instrument toilet in the European way, if we all sit on it, then we won't get messy. And obviously, if someone messes up the toilet seat, the next person's got to stand on it. He's not going to sit on it, and so forth and so on.

And so if, so one of the Ghanaian students, I guess he'd been sort of looking through the windows at us. He said if us Ghanaians use that European instrument in the European way, our long African penises are going to dangle in the water. And that was a kick. That was such a kick.

[Assistant] Yeah. Other than the housemaster responsibilities, did you do any?

[User] That's about it. We had, we had that. We.

[Assistant] Did you get involved in the sports at all?

[User] Just to watch the students. We had.

[Assistant] But you didn't coach or anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's about it. We had, we had that. We.

[Assistant] Did you get involved in the sports at all?

[User] Just to watch the students. We had.

[Assistant] But you didn't coach or anything.

[User] I wasn't coaching anything because you had the, we had an athletic coach, the Ghanaian guy. And he was, he was a good, athletic young man and was teaching the kids to do soccer and so forth. He did an excellent job.

[Assistant] But on a typical school day, I mean, you were only teaching maybe 2 hours, 3 hours. How did you, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just to watch the students. We had.

[Assistant] But you didn't coach or anything.

[User] I wasn't coaching anything because you had the, we had an athletic coach, the Ghanaian guy. And he was, he was a good, athletic young man and was teaching the kids to do soccer and so forth. He did an excellent job.

[Assistant] But on a typical school day, I mean, you were only teaching maybe 2 hours, 3 hours. How did you, what did you do?

[User] I was preparing for the, preparing for the next class. I was grading papers in the evening.

[Assistant] In the little blue books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was preparing for the, preparing for the next class. I was grading papers in the evening.

[Assistant] In the little blue books.

[User] Yeah. And I was setting up the, setting up the, doing the laboratories, the science lab kind of thing. The blackboards were exactly that, of course, they were boards painted black.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so cleaning up the place a little bit. The, um. Teach. Do that. Have lunch. Go back teach again. Come back in the afternoon. Prepare. Read a little bit. Evening time, we would have dinner. And usually Don and I would sit and talk. Or we'd, we would read Shakespeare together, to each other, take parts. And I remember we went through a couple of books, Shakespeare books like that.

[Assistant] Were both you and Don at that time playing guitar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I was setting up the, setting up the, doing the laboratories, the science lab kind of thing. The blackboards were exactly that, of course, they were boards painted black.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so cleaning up the place a little bit. The, um. Teach. Do that. Have lunch. Go back teach again. Come back in the afternoon. Prepare. Read a little bit. Evening time, we would have dinner. And usually Don and I would sit and talk. Or we'd, we would read Shakespeare together, to each other, take parts. And I remember we went through a couple of books, Shakespeare books like that.

[Assistant] Were both you and Don at that time playing guitar?

[User] Don played the guitar and I had a banjo.

[Assistant] Talk about that, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so cleaning up the place a little bit. The, um. Teach. Do that. Have lunch. Go back teach again. Come back in the afternoon. Prepare. Read a little bit. Evening time, we would have dinner. And usually Don and I would sit and talk. Or we'd, we would read Shakespeare together, to each other, take parts. And I remember we went through a couple of books, Shakespeare books like that.

[Assistant] Were both you and Don at that time playing guitar?

[User] Don played the guitar and I had a banjo.

[Assistant] Talk about that, I mean.

[User] I had a banjo and we didn't, we did. So I don't remember too much of us singing that much, but I did. I did do. I had the banjo and I was into playing that and the Ghanaians sometimes liked, you know, we'd play a little bit.

[Assistant] You ever try to perform for the students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don played the guitar and I had a banjo.

[Assistant] Talk about that, I mean.

[User] I had a banjo and we didn't, we did. So I don't remember too much of us singing that much, but I did. I did do. I had the banjo and I was into playing that and the Ghanaians sometimes liked, you know, we'd play a little bit.

[Assistant] You ever try to perform for the students?

[User] Occasionally I guess, but not that much.

[Assistant] I mean, formally.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During, I forget what year it was.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I ran the, uh, I ran the stage and the lights and, you know, and created the lighting effects and all that, all the scientific science kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And Don did the play and so and we did it downtown, ended up doing it downtown. So that was.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into town to do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I ran the, uh, I ran the stage and the lights and, you know, and created the lighting effects and all that, all the scientific science kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And Don did the play and so and we did it downtown, ended up doing it downtown. So that was.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into town to do it?

[User] It was, yeah. The play was actually done on a stage and we set up, or in a room, we set up a curtain and put lights on it and dimmed the lights and all that stuff.

[Assistant] Did during that first year, did you, uh, you don't, there weren't that many other faculty members. Did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Don did the play and so and we did it downtown, ended up doing it downtown. So that was.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into town to do it?

[User] It was, yeah. The play was actually done on a stage and we set up, or in a room, we set up a curtain and put lights on it and dimmed the lights and all that stuff.

[Assistant] Did during that first year, did you, uh, you don't, there weren't that many other faculty members. Did you?

[User] There I think there was a woman.

[Assistant] Must have been a woman.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There I think there was a woman.

[Assistant] Must have been a woman.

[User] A woman. A teacher.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I frankly I don't, unfortunately I don't remember.

[Assistant] Do you recall particularly getting to know Ghanaians, I mean, having any Ghanaian friends, personal friends, you know, rather than just someone you work with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was, um, in the, it was a really wasn't a village but at the bottom of the hill before you get to the main road was a small village and there was living a Ghanaian but he had actually studied in the United States and studied anthropology and we got to know him. But that's kind of, he was more, he had a little bit of more American. We did get to know, I think it was more in the second year than the first year, we got to know. Dunkwa was on the railroad tracks, and so it was, it had a lot of ministry type, little small ministry type people there, young men who ran the ministry offices in town.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they were all, so we'd get together with them on a Sunday afternoon and drink palm wine downtown at someone's house.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, um, drink palm wine. And they called it Sherwood Forest. And we would have. And they would, and if anybody spilled the palm wine, they would have a trial. And someone had to be a defendant, and someone had to be the prosecutor. And they had. And Don would play the guitar. We'd sing and so forth.

[Assistant] And this is all young men.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were all, so we'd get together with them on a Sunday afternoon and drink palm wine downtown at someone's house.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, um, drink palm wine. And they called it Sherwood Forest. And we would have. And they would, and if anybody spilled the palm wine, they would have a trial. And someone had to be a defendant, and someone had to be the prosecutor. And they had. And Don would play the guitar. We'd sing and so forth.

[Assistant] And this is all young men.

[User] All young men.

[Assistant] And was, the exchanges were all in English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All young men.

[Assistant] And was, the exchanges were all in English?

[User] All in English, yes, because they were all young bureaucrats basically.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they spoke English. Dunkwa was also had a fairly strong expatriate. They had a, they had a big alluvial gold mining operation there. So they had, they had a fairly strong, um. They had a hospital, a Ghanaian doctor, and we got to know him. He invited us up. But they also had a bunch of English people there who worked with, who worked the gold mine or the alluvial boat in the middle of the river. Got the boat.

[Assistant] Did they have their own club?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All in English, yes, because they were all young bureaucrats basically.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they spoke English. Dunkwa was also had a fairly strong expatriate. They had a, they had a big alluvial gold mining operation there. So they had, they had a fairly strong, um. They had a hospital, a Ghanaian doctor, and we got to know him. He invited us up. But they also had a bunch of English people there who worked with, who worked the gold mine or the alluvial boat in the middle of the river. Got the boat.

[Assistant] Did they have their own club?

[User] They had their own club. So every so often we'd, maybe once a month or twice a month, we'd go out there and they'd have, they'd have a movie show and a swimming pool and a club and that kind of stuff out there. That was, you know, of course, that was not Ghanaian. That was basic expatriate.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you recall any sense of, you know, how did the British people react to you, I mean you're Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And being in the Peace Corps and they're very helpful. They were helpful as far as I could tell. We were always friendly with them. They, you know, they didn't know quite what we're doing there if we weren't making a lot of money.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Most of the people I run into mostly were, you know, they were there because they weren't necessarily they had, they felt this was. I'm talking about the expatriates there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Except the guys who ran the, a couple of guys that ran the place, but the rest of them were technicians and mechanics and that sort of thing that felt it was an opportunity for them.

[Assistant] How did you and Don get around when you decided to go to in town or any place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of the people I run into mostly were, you know, they were there because they weren't necessarily they had, they felt this was. I'm talking about the expatriates there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Except the guys who ran the, a couple of guys that ran the place, but the rest of them were technicians and mechanics and that sort of thing that felt it was an opportunity for them.

[Assistant] How did you and Don get around when you decided to go to in town or any place?

[User] Went to the town, we'd walk. Generally walk. Occasionally the lorry would go into town. We'd catch the lorry into town.

[Assistant] The school lorry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Went to the town, we'd walk. Generally walk. Occasionally the lorry would go into town. We'd catch the lorry into town.

[Assistant] The school lorry?

[User] School lorry. But overall we just generally, we didn't have our own cars or anything like that, so we'd walk. If we go to Kumasi, we generally would hitchhike. We'd get on the road and hitchhike. And usually what that meant was a lorry would be coming by and he would pick us up. The lorry being the transportation of all the people, a lorry, a truck with right across the back people would sit on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, there they'd always want to put us up front in the front seat and we'd always want to say, no, no, no, we don't have to do that. You have to end up in the front seat anyway.

[Assistant] So coming to the end of the first year, I can't remember. There's usually a mid service conference where all the volunteers are called together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] School lorry. But overall we just generally, we didn't have our own cars or anything like that, so we'd walk. If we go to Kumasi, we generally would hitchhike. We'd get on the road and hitchhike. And usually what that meant was a lorry would be coming by and he would pick us up. The lorry being the transportation of all the people, a lorry, a truck with right across the back people would sit on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, there they'd always want to put us up front in the front seat and we'd always want to say, no, no, no, we don't have to do that. You have to end up in the front seat anyway.

[Assistant] So coming to the end of the first year, I can't remember. There's usually a mid service conference where all the volunteers are called together.

[User] I didn't recall.

[Assistant] You don't recall that at all. It may not have happened. But by the end of the first year, had you had much contact with the other people you were trained with or the other Peace Corps in the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't recall.

[Assistant] You don't recall that at all. It may not have happened. But by the end of the first year, had you had much contact with the other people you were trained with or the other Peace Corps in the country?

[User] Yeah, because I'd go to Accra and we'd meet people there and I'd go to Kumasi and there were people there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn't really. I got to know a couple of people a little bit, but I was not. I was not that involved with, you know, being part of a Peace Corps community per se.

[Assistant] I mean, did you have a sense that other people were having a better experience or worse experience than you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because I'd go to Accra and we'd meet people there and I'd go to Kumasi and there were people there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn't really. I got to know a couple of people a little bit, but I was not. I was not that involved with, you know, being part of a Peace Corps community per se.

[Assistant] I mean, did you have a sense that other people were having a better experience or worse experience than you?

[User] I thought people were about the same. I thought that they were all in fairly. They were, the government was taking care of them, that they were. There were a couple of people, I think, who had some problem. One lady, one girl left early. [tape break]

[Assistant] One of the issues with Peace Corps was at times staff would express in different ways is that it wasn't enough just to be teaching, that you really should be involved in the larger community, get to know Ghana better. Do you recall that at all? Again, don't let me put words in your mouth. You know, being encouraged to do projects, to do more than just be on the compound.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought people were about the same. I thought that they were all in fairly. They were, the government was taking care of them, that they were. There were a couple of people, I think, who had some problem. One lady, one girl left early. [tape break]

[Assistant] One of the issues with Peace Corps was at times staff would express in different ways is that it wasn't enough just to be teaching, that you really should be involved in the larger community, get to know Ghana better. Do you recall that at all? Again, don't let me put words in your mouth. You know, being encouraged to do projects, to do more than just be on the compound.

[User] Don and I. Don and I had talked about that and we talked about it more in the sense that there is a sense of wanting to leave something behind and say I've been there kind of thing. And how important, was that really important or was it important to do our, to do our job to teach? And so we didn't get involved with any projects.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] I was, if I look back on it in truthfulness, I would say that I was there to teach. And to travel and get to know the land. That's what I was doing. I was doing my teaching, doing what I needed to do. I wasn't, I didn't go out of my way particularly to do too much in the community. And when I did have extra time, I used it to travel.

[Assistant] You felt it was yours to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, if I look back on it in truthfulness, I would say that I was there to teach. And to travel and get to know the land. That's what I was doing. I was doing my teaching, doing what I needed to do. I wasn't, I didn't go out of my way particularly to do too much in the community. And when I did have extra time, I used it to travel.

[Assistant] You felt it was yours to do?

[User] Yeah. I look back on that and I say, that's probably not necessarily the best thing.

[Assistant] Well.

[User] But that's what I did.

[Assistant] So your recollection is that it was pretty much an individual thing you were doing. You were not necessarily constantly aware of being part of a bigger Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that's what I did.

[Assistant] So your recollection is that it was pretty much an individual thing you were doing. You were not necessarily constantly aware of being part of a bigger Peace Corps.

[User] Except that I felt that, you know, that it was a, what do you call it? It was, there was a whole infrastructure.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] There was, you know, if I needed help, that was going to be fixed. It was, there was an infrastructure there that if I needed it, it was available. And the other thing is, by that time, in the second or third year, there was, you know, you could travel just about anywhere in West Africa and find a Peace Corps volunteer within a couple of, within an hour's walk somewhere.

[Assistant] Through the first year, how was your health?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Except that I felt that, you know, that it was a, what do you call it? It was, there was a whole infrastructure.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] There was, you know, if I needed help, that was going to be fixed. It was, there was an infrastructure there that if I needed it, it was available. And the other thing is, by that time, in the second or third year, there was, you know, you could travel just about anywhere in West Africa and find a Peace Corps volunteer within a couple of, within an hour's walk somewhere.

[Assistant] Through the first year, how was your health?

[User] Fine. I had no problem at all.

[Assistant] OK. And there's a long break between first and second year in the school pattern. Almost two months, at least two months. What did you do during the long vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fine. I had no problem at all.

[Assistant] OK. And there's a long break between first and second year in the school pattern. Almost two months, at least two months. What did you do during the long vacation?

[User] Again, I had met, when we were going at the university, during our introduction.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I had met a couple of the, a couple of professors there who were from South Africa, and they had left South Africa because of the apartheid. This is white people, these were white guys who didn't, who left and wanted to teach. So they were teaching in Ghana. And so I decided that I got the name, but I got to know them a little bit and got the names of some people that they knew in South Africa. And I decided to take off for the summer. And I flew to actually Rhodesia and hitchhiked from Rhodesia down to Cape Town and back.

[Assistant] You were aware that that was against Peace Corps policy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Again, I had met, when we were going at the university, during our introduction.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I had met a couple of the, a couple of professors there who were from South Africa, and they had left South Africa because of the apartheid. This is white people, these were white guys who didn't, who left and wanted to teach. So they were teaching in Ghana. And so I decided that I got the name, but I got to know them a little bit and got the names of some people that they knew in South Africa. And I decided to take off for the summer. And I flew to actually Rhodesia and hitchhiked from Rhodesia down to Cape Town and back.

[Assistant] You were aware that that was against Peace Corps policy?

[User] It was through the Peace Corps that I did this with Peace Corps. They knew I was doing it.

[Assistant] Leaving to South Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was through the Peace Corps that I did this with Peace Corps. They knew I was doing it.

[Assistant] Leaving to South Africa?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In fact, they gave me a second passport. I got a, I got a, I have, I got two passports, one for the Ghanaian and one for, one anyway. So they gave me, I got a second passport so that I wouldn't get a South African visa on my passport.

[Assistant] Well, related to that, now that during the first year and even into the second, there was a certain amount of political tension about the Peace Corps in Ghana that, you know, with times there were accusations that Peace Corps were spies. And Ghana was moving sort of between east and west.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In fact, they gave me a second passport. I got a, I got a, I have, I got two passports, one for the Ghanaian and one for, one anyway. So they gave me, I got a second passport so that I wouldn't get a South African visa on my passport.

[Assistant] Well, related to that, now that during the first year and even into the second, there was a certain amount of political tension about the Peace Corps in Ghana that, you know, with times there were accusations that Peace Corps were spies. And Ghana was moving sort of between east and west.

[User] Right. We saw that. We saw it because there was a young, all the students who had the Young Pioneer leader who was not from the school, who would come out and organize the students and have Young Pioneer meetings and so forth, bandanas and sort of like a Boy Scouts kind of thing, which was a.

[Assistant] How did that affect you directly, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It didn't affect me, except for the students looked at this and said, you know, to some extent they liked it. They like the idea of it. To some extent they had no choice. They had to do it. They look on it like here's a little bit of propaganda. They didn't, they had to put up with to do this. It didn't affect me that much except that to go to South Africa, I had to get, I had to get the visa through the post. So when I came back.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The, I remember that they got me into the downtown and a bunch of local, what looked like workers, but they were people who got me into and say, well, would you ever go to South Africa? What would you do to go to South Africa? They knew I'd been there.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And so they had to, I had to discuss. I could never tell them exactly. I could never say that I'd been to South Africa, but they knew I'd been there. And so we had, I said, well, I had to explain why I went there in order to see the apartheid people that were fighting the apartheid down there and understand what these people were doing and so forth. Not that they understood. But I remember I got a grilling from the local, some local people there.

[Assistant] Who are friends of yours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The, I remember that they got me into the downtown and a bunch of local, what looked like workers, but they were people who got me into and say, well, would you ever go to South Africa? What would you do to go to South Africa? They knew I'd been there.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And so they had to, I had to discuss. I could never tell them exactly. I could never say that I'd been to South Africa, but they knew I'd been there. And so we had, I said, well, I had to explain why I went there in order to see the apartheid people that were fighting the apartheid down there and understand what these people were doing and so forth. Not that they understood. But I remember I got a grilling from the local, some local people there.

[Assistant] Who are friends of yours?

[User]
Yeah, there was not a, it was not unreasonable and they weren't being nasty to me, but they were just wanted to know what I was doing. Did anyone at any point, a student or faculty or other friends ever say, well, are you a spy or?

Yeah, in fact at this meeting they probably asked me if I'd been a spy or what. They probably did. None of the students did. But just that that one meeting was, and they, you know, and I said, no, I'm not a spy. I'm just me trying to learn about the life and people.

[Assistant] Right. So, OK, you did the South Africa trip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they had to, I had to discuss. I could never tell them exactly. I could never say that I'd been to South Africa, but they knew I'd been there. And so we had, I said, well, I had to explain why I went there in order to see the apartheid people that were fighting the apartheid down there and understand what these people were doing and so forth. Not that they understood. But I remember I got a grilling from the local, some local people there.

[Assistant] Who are friends of yours?

[User]
Yeah, there was not a, it was not unreasonable and they weren't being nasty to me, but they were just wanted to know what I was doing. Did anyone at any point, a student or faculty or other friends ever say, well, are you a spy or?

Yeah, in fact at this meeting they probably asked me if I'd been a spy or what. They probably did. None of the students did. But just that that one meeting was, and they, you know, and I said, no, I'm not a spy. I'm just me trying to learn about the life and people.

[Assistant] Right. So, OK, you did the South Africa trip.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And managed two passports and so forth. Now you're coming back for the beginning of the second year. Do you particularly recall starting your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, there was not a, it was not unreasonable and they weren't being nasty to me, but they were just wanted to know what I was doing. Did anyone at any point, a student or faculty or other friends ever say, well, are you a spy or?

Yeah, in fact at this meeting they probably asked me if I'd been a spy or what. They probably did. None of the students did. But just that that one meeting was, and they, you know, and I said, no, I'm not a spy. I'm just me trying to learn about the life and people.

[Assistant] Right. So, OK, you did the South Africa trip.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And managed two passports and so forth. Now you're coming back for the beginning of the second year. Do you particularly recall starting your second year?

[User] I recall, and to me it's just one big, one big, um, you know, doing my thing there at the school.

[Assistant] So there wasn't any sort of self-reflection about, you know, I'm achieving what I wanted or going into the second year, maybe I want to do this before I go back because now I know it's just another year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was doing a lot of personal growing up at that time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The, you know, I think I thought I was fairly mature. I thought I was doing good and so forth. And but as I look back on it, I think I had a lot of self-interest. I wasn't, I wasn't very overall quite compassionate. I felt I was doing good things, but I wasn't going out of my way to become involved with a lot of stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, as I said, why did I do that? I say, well, that's just who I was at the time, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable. Do you remember the Peace Corps staff asking you to go out to Sefwi because there were two women who were assigned there your second year? It would have been their first year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The, you know, I think I thought I was fairly mature. I thought I was doing good and so forth. And but as I look back on it, I think I had a lot of self-interest. I wasn't, I wasn't very overall quite compassionate. I felt I was doing good things, but I wasn't going out of my way to become involved with a lot of stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, as I said, why did I do that? I say, well, that's just who I was at the time, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable. Do you remember the Peace Corps staff asking you to go out to Sefwi because there were two women who were assigned there your second year? It would have been their first year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To kind of help them settle in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, as I said, why did I do that? I say, well, that's just who I was at the time, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable. Do you remember the Peace Corps staff asking you to go out to Sefwi because there were two women who were assigned there your second year? It would have been their first year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To kind of help them settle in.

[User] We did. I remember Don and I went out there a couple of, once, at least once. I remember going to. I remember going out to see you once I think, you are out there.

[Assistant] I, well, your first year, it was my second year there. But then Barbara and Elaine were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To kind of help them settle in.

[User] We did. I remember Don and I went out there a couple of, once, at least once. I remember going to. I remember going out to see you once I think, you are out there.

[Assistant] I, well, your first year, it was my second year there. But then Barbara and Elaine were there.

[User] They were there and we went up. I don't think we were necessarily very helpful though. I think we just went out there and said hello and spent the evening. And but, I mean, in terms of actually being helpful, in terms of.

[Assistant] Well, you were veterans at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. I remember Don and I went out there a couple of, once, at least once. I remember going to. I remember going out to see you once I think, you are out there.

[Assistant] I, well, your first year, it was my second year there. But then Barbara and Elaine were there.

[User] They were there and we went up. I don't think we were necessarily very helpful though. I think we just went out there and said hello and spent the evening. And but, I mean, in terms of actually being helpful, in terms of.

[Assistant] Well, you were veterans at that point.

[User] Yeah. But they were, uh, as I remember, they would come by and stop by Dunkwa when they came back and forth to Kumasi, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Because they had a jeep.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were there and we went up. I don't think we were necessarily very helpful though. I think we just went out there and said hello and spent the evening. And but, I mean, in terms of actually being helpful, in terms of.

[Assistant] Well, you were veterans at that point.

[User] Yeah. But they were, uh, as I remember, they would come by and stop by Dunkwa when they came back and forth to Kumasi, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Because they had a jeep.

[User] Yeah, they had a jeep and so forth. I guess, I didn't know that. I forgot that.

[Assistant] OK. So second year you're teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But they were, uh, as I remember, they would come by and stop by Dunkwa when they came back and forth to Kumasi, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Because they had a jeep.

[User] Yeah, they had a jeep and so forth. I guess, I didn't know that. I forgot that.

[Assistant] OK. So second year you're teaching.

[User] The same kind of thing as the first year, teaching for me.

[Assistant] Any particular travel during that year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same kind of thing as the first year, teaching for me.

[Assistant] Any particular travel during that year?

[User] No, they didn't have, because the thing that Timbuktu and so forth was, uh, was because we just had a real long break that first year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So the second year was a normal break. And so I remember we probably just probably went to Accra or something like that.

[Assistant] And your role pretty much continued second year, essentially teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they didn't have, because the thing that Timbuktu and so forth was, uh, was because we just had a real long break that first year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So the second year was a normal break. And so I remember we probably just probably went to Accra or something like that.

[Assistant] And your role pretty much continued second year, essentially teaching?

[User] Teaching science and math.

[Assistant] And being the housemaster, but no larger circles. You had some friends in town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In town we'd see on some Sundays and for the, uh. But I didn't really get to, I didn't get involved with the local politicians or the local chief, even though the chief was a young man and had just, had been, he had studied in the United States, just gotten back. And I just, we didn't get to them. We went to a couple of the festivals and we got to, we were invited and we went to them and so forth. But I didn't, I didn't really spend. The only thing I did do is I did do some, there was a school in town that was teaching, that was starting up, another school.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Of course. And I went there and helped them out a little bit.

[Assistant] How?

[User] Just talked about some.

[Assistant] Was it a private secondary school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn't secondary. It was just a private school.

[Assistant] Training college?

[User] Training college.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And so teacher training, I think or something.

[Assistant] Was that at your initiative?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training college.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And so teacher training, I think or something.

[Assistant] Was that at your initiative?

[User] So I don't know. They asked us to come let them know and see if we could help out.

[Assistant] Oh, and it was all Ghanaian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so teacher training, I think or something.

[Assistant] Was that at your initiative?

[User] So I don't know. They asked us to come let them know and see if we could help out.

[Assistant] Oh, and it was all Ghanaian?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what did you do? Did you teach science to them or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I don't know. They asked us to come let them know and see if we could help out.

[Assistant] Oh, and it was all Ghanaian?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what did you do? Did you teach science to them or?

[User] I think I taught some math. It was only a couple of times.

[Assistant] Oh, all right, all right. As you're getting near the end of the second year, what do you envision as your future? I mean, you know, you're going to, I assume you're going to, your choice is to leave Ghana, not to try for a third year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I taught some math. It was only a couple of times.

[Assistant] Oh, all right, all right. As you're getting near the end of the second year, what do you envision as your future? I mean, you know, you're going to, I assume you're going to, your choice is to leave Ghana, not to try for a third year.

[User] Yeah, right. Again, I got out of school here on the Stanford and not knowing what I wanted to do so, but knowing that I thought I'd better take the opportunity to get some traveling and experience for myself. And then so I'm at the end of the second year, I'm saying, well, you know, what do I do with my life now?

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And I didn't know what I wanted to do there either. So I had decided to. I thought I would go to. I thought I'd hitchhike basically, go across the continent to East Africa and see if I could get a job in East Africa teaching for another couple of years in East Africa.

[Assistant] OK, let's stop at that point. Let's go. Do you recall, usually at the end of the your Peace Corps service there's what's called the termination conference? The group gets back together and you talk through your experience. Do you remember that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Again, I got out of school here on the Stanford and not knowing what I wanted to do so, but knowing that I thought I'd better take the opportunity to get some traveling and experience for myself. And then so I'm at the end of the second year, I'm saying, well, you know, what do I do with my life now?

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And I didn't know what I wanted to do there either. So I had decided to. I thought I would go to. I thought I'd hitchhike basically, go across the continent to East Africa and see if I could get a job in East Africa teaching for another couple of years in East Africa.

[Assistant] OK, let's stop at that point. Let's go. Do you recall, usually at the end of the your Peace Corps service there's what's called the termination conference? The group gets back together and you talk through your experience. Do you remember that at all?

[User] No, I don't know that.

[Assistant] Your group was, it had become traditional, but only for a short time, was, uh, met with Kwame Nkrumah before you left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't know that.

[Assistant] Your group was, it had become traditional, but only for a short time, was, uh, met with Kwame Nkrumah before you left.

[User] Yes, we did. We did welcome back Kwame Nkrumah. But that was more like herding us into the, into his compound.

[Assistant] Flagstaff.

[User] Flagstaff house and meeting him on the bus. And running in and doing that and then leaving. To me, it was, it was very nice, but it was just.

[Assistant] But this was Nkrumah. You know, if you lived in Ghana in those years, wherever you turned, you would hear about him. Any special impression or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought, I thought he's the guy. My impressions of him personally, no, because I didn't, I just saw him a little bit.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But as far as the people thought of him, I felt the guy was, had really done a lot of good stuff. I felt, I mean, I felt there was a little bit of self-aggrandizement there. Kumi Nkrumah, The Big Man, kind of thing.

[Assistant] The Redeemer.

[User] The Redeemer and all that stuff. But it was my sense, as they taught us in training, you know, that's part of the deal, right? And so I felt that he was, I felt that he had done some very good stuff for the country and that the people liked him. The people felt it was worth, it was good.

[Assistant] During your second year, it was when Kennedy was assassinated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But as far as the people thought of him, I felt the guy was, had really done a lot of good stuff. I felt, I mean, I felt there was a little bit of self-aggrandizement there. Kumi Nkrumah, The Big Man, kind of thing.

[Assistant] The Redeemer.

[User] The Redeemer and all that stuff. But it was my sense, as they taught us in training, you know, that's part of the deal, right? And so I felt that he was, I felt that he had done some very good stuff for the country and that the people liked him. The people felt it was worth, it was good.

[Assistant] During your second year, it was when Kennedy was assassinated.

[User] Second year was the Kennedy assassination.

[Assistant] Can you recall how you heard about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Redeemer and all that stuff. But it was my sense, as they taught us in training, you know, that's part of the deal, right? And so I felt that he was, I felt that he had done some very good stuff for the country and that the people liked him. The people felt it was worth, it was good.

[Assistant] During your second year, it was when Kennedy was assassinated.

[User] Second year was the Kennedy assassination.

[Assistant] Can you recall how you heard about it?

[User] Yeah, I remember about that, very definitely. We were, we were walking.

[Assistant] You and Don?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don and I were walking from the school with a bunch of students in the town. This is about, this is about a mile and a half hike kind of thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User]
Down the hill from the school to the main road and then into town, up the hill again into the main town. And we were coming down the hill when the students came up to me. And he said, Mr. Gilman, I'm very, very sorry. He said, your president was just killed. Your president was just killed. It was like, he felt it very personally, just as if Nkrumah had been killed and had died. And I said, woah. And that was, that was a shock to everybody. And so. I do, I remember we were, we were certainly for a day or two, we were feeling very, uh, connected and sorry and grieving about that.

The Ghanaians, all the Ghanaians were totally, were very, they were very compassionate about the whole thing. All the students and everybody was very compassionate. They felt very strongly for Kennedy and the fact that he'd been doing some things. That when Nkrumah had been in the White House, had been to the White House, that Kennedy held the umbrella for Nkrumah, which is holding an umbrella for the chief as a big deal. So he was showing deference to Nkrumah. And things like that, right? That they felt, they felt very strongly that Kennedy was a, had done a lot for them, and they felt, they felt very connected with Kennedy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Everybody did.

[Assistant] Were either you or Don churchgoers, I can't remember.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Down the hill from the school to the main road and then into town, up the hill again into the main town. And we were coming down the hill when the students came up to me. And he said, Mr. Gilman, I'm very, very sorry. He said, your president was just killed. Your president was just killed. It was like, he felt it very personally, just as if Nkrumah had been killed and had died. And I said, woah. And that was, that was a shock to everybody. And so. I do, I remember we were, we were certainly for a day or two, we were feeling very, uh, connected and sorry and grieving about that.

The Ghanaians, all the Ghanaians were totally, were very, they were very compassionate about the whole thing. All the students and everybody was very compassionate. They felt very strongly for Kennedy and the fact that he'd been doing some things. That when Nkrumah had been in the White House, had been to the White House, that Kennedy held the umbrella for Nkrumah, which is holding an umbrella for the chief as a big deal. So he was showing deference to Nkrumah. And things like that, right? That they felt, they felt very strongly that Kennedy was a, had done a lot for them, and they felt, they felt very connected with Kennedy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Everybody did.

[Assistant] Were either you or Don churchgoers, I can't remember.

[User] I didn't go to church and Don, I think, was Catholic, but I don't think he, I don't remember him going to church.

[Assistant] So you don't recall if there was no.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody did.

[Assistant] Were either you or Don churchgoers, I can't remember.

[User] I didn't go to church and Don, I think, was Catholic, but I don't think he, I don't remember him going to church.

[Assistant] So you don't recall if there was no.

[User] I think he mean, maybe he went to the Catholic Church.

[Assistant] There was a Catholic Church in Dunkwa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't go to church and Don, I think, was Catholic, but I don't think he, I don't remember him going to church.

[Assistant] So you don't recall if there was no.

[User] I think he mean, maybe he went to the Catholic Church.

[Assistant] There was a Catholic Church in Dunkwa?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. But at the time of Kennedy's assassination, there was no thought of, you know, finding a church to go to or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he mean, maybe he went to the Catholic Church.

[Assistant] There was a Catholic Church in Dunkwa?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. But at the time of Kennedy's assassination, there was no thought of, you know, finding a church to go to or?

[User] Not that I remember. Not that I did. It was more just talking about him.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK. And let's jump now. You finish your service. As you're leaving Ghana, did you reflect back at all on your own sense of achievement or what it had meant, you know, for the two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. But at the time of Kennedy's assassination, there was no thought of, you know, finding a church to go to or?

[User] Not that I remember. Not that I did. It was more just talking about him.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK. And let's jump now. You finish your service. As you're leaving Ghana, did you reflect back at all on your own sense of achievement or what it had meant, you know, for the two years?

[User] I was, I was planning. I was, I was mostly moving on.

[Assistant] Thinking what you were coming into.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, I was planning. I was, I was mostly moving on.

[Assistant] Thinking what you were coming into.

[User] It might not be, it might not be necessarily strong, but one of the. When I, sometimes I have a dream nightmare. I don't dream at all. I go to sleep, I wake up, I don't dream very much. But occasionally I would have one and that was I had re-upped in Ghana for a second or third year. It was like, I'm stuck there. Like I didn't want to leave, that I am not moving on with my life kind of thing. This is later years. This is later years. This is like.

[Assistant] After.

[User] Yeah, afterwards. So I looked back on the sense, and I wonder, I don't know why that is. I don't consciously have that sense of it, but I have that sense of I was marking time and not moving on with my life. And in terms of I think probably in terms of adventure and learning to be self- sufficient, yes, I was, I did a lot. But in terms of actually, um, I guess I would have to look back and say I was marking time there and was pretty much self-absorbed.

[Assistant] But in many ways, there's no grand closure. I mean, to your two year, it's not a cycle where at the end of it you have a monument you can look to and say, this is what I achieved. Because, you know, school is ongoing and you're going to leave and it'll continue and yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had Sharon come in, of course, when Don and I. Don and I were there the second year and a third Peace Corps volunteer had come in and she was staying on after that, right?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And she lived in, she actually lived in the girls dorm. She wasn't in the dormitory. They had a second, like an office. And that's where she stayed, next to the girls dormitory.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And she was very much involved with all the girls in the school.

[Assistant] When you left were other volunteers being assigned there or you didn't even know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she lived in, she actually lived in the girls dorm. She wasn't in the dormitory. They had a second, like an office. And that's where she stayed, next to the girls dormitory.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And she was very much involved with all the girls in the school.

[Assistant] When you left were other volunteers being assigned there or you didn't even know?

[User] I think there were, but I didn't, I didn't know them. We'd gone already. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about the end of service. And Sharon had come and was on staff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she was very much involved with all the girls in the school.

[Assistant] When you left were other volunteers being assigned there or you didn't even know?

[User] I think there were, but I didn't, I didn't know them. We'd gone already. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about the end of service. And Sharon had come and was on staff.

[User] On the second year.

[Assistant] Right. And she was staying on for the third, obviously. But there's no, as I was saying, there was no grand closure to having been a volunteer at Dunkwa, I mean, if you had done it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there were, but I didn't, I didn't know them. We'd gone already. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about the end of service. And Sharon had come and was on staff.

[User] On the second year.

[Assistant] Right. And she was staying on for the third, obviously. But there's no, as I was saying, there was no grand closure to having been a volunteer at Dunkwa, I mean, if you had done it.

[User] I had done it and I've gone on to something else.

[Assistant] The next thing was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd been involved with the, you know, the girl in Accra, who was one of the volunteers in Accra.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] A girl, we had become involved with each other to some extent.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] I went out to see her. And she and I actually traveled through, she and I traveled together through Nigeria and into the Central African Republic.

[Assistant] Oh. Is this at the end of the service or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was leaving and she was, she was a first year so then she went back to Ghana.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Um. Yeah. I feel in that sense I felt that, I look back on that and here's this girl who's a very lovely girl, traveling with me, wanted me to become much more involved personally with her life in terms of maybe ongoing. And I just had no clue about that. I was on my adventure.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And she finally got fed up with me on that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So after Peace Corps, I mean, you did lots of things in your life, but at this point, looking back, you know, there were three goals to the Peace Corps. One was to provide needed skills where requested, and that's the teaching you did. The other is to familiarize people in other parts of the world with America. And the third is to, you know, have Americans learn about other parts of the world. Have you, in the years following, have you done much on the third point, you know, to let the world know about, to let Americans know about other parts of the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well. Um, let's see. After the Peace Corps I ended up in, I ended up doing a bunch of stuff with the school in Europe and ended up working with some of the military people, American military in Germany.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] As an expatriate. And I would give, I would sometimes give lectures to people there. I had slides and would show some of the slides. I wrote some articles which got published in the Stanford Daily, the Stanford newspaper. Years later, I talked to somebody who said that he'd read the article I wrote and he signed up for the Peace Corps and it changed his life. And I think, wow, great.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] But as far as actually organized or becoming involved with groups or something like that, you know, I didn't get involved with that.

[Assistant] And you haven't been back to Ghana and have not been able to maintain contact with any.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As an expatriate. And I would give, I would sometimes give lectures to people there. I had slides and would show some of the slides. I wrote some articles which got published in the Stanford Daily, the Stanford newspaper. Years later, I talked to somebody who said that he'd read the article I wrote and he signed up for the Peace Corps and it changed his life. And I think, wow, great.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] But as far as actually organized or becoming involved with groups or something like that, you know, I didn't get involved with that.

[Assistant] And you haven't been back to Ghana and have not been able to maintain contact with any.

[User] I didn't try actually.

[Assistant] Well, OK. Overall, what would you say was the effect of having been in the Peace Corps on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got, I had a lot of sense of my own ability to, uh, to face any kind of situation I wanted to face. I mean, travel anywhere. Um. I got to know a lot of different, different cultures and feel comfortable traveling among all kinds of different cultures. And what is the? I felt, I've always felt that I did something good. Therefore, I'm, I'm an okay person. I'm a, I'm a compassionate human being.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The, um. I say, what did I really learn there? And I think it was a sense of growing up, of learning to be self-confident. I think, I think I would say, I would say very, very much I was, I had a lot a lack of a sense of a lot of self-confidence.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] During that time. It didn't show it directly, but indirectly. And I was, I was proving myself, I was trying to show, to prove to myself that I can handle myself in these situations.

[Assistant] Well, I certainly knew traveling to Timbuktu, you must have had some sense of achievement, hitchhiking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The, um. I say, what did I really learn there? And I think it was a sense of growing up, of learning to be self-confident. I think, I think I would say, I would say very, very much I was, I had a lot a lack of a sense of a lot of self-confidence.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] During that time. It didn't show it directly, but indirectly. And I was, I was proving myself, I was trying to show, to prove to myself that I can handle myself in these situations.

[Assistant] Well, I certainly knew traveling to Timbuktu, you must have had some sense of achievement, hitchhiking.

[User] Hitchhiking around the Congo and things like that.

[Assistant] As well as teaching where you'd never taught before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and getting to know the people. The long lasting is, the long lasting that I felt that a sense of acceptance with other, for cultures, all cultures. But, you know, having grown up in Hawaii as I said early on, that was, I had grown up with that kind of sense of it wasn't a matter of understanding the importance of cultures and of different people. And, and, what I didn't, what I didn't learn at the time is how to get out of my own self, my own skin, and really, really connect, and really connect and with other people in order to help them.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I was, I was there to help people, but to help myself, right?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And it was, it was not, it was not. I was not at the level of maturity where I could just put myself aside and say, how can I be of service?

[Assistant] Well, you may just be being more honest than many people are, you know, because it's clear there's a self, there's a, you know, an individual role and purpose in doing it and there's a lot of personal benefit to it. And incidentally, you help and, you know, making the leap into someone else's shoes is not a simple process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, I was there to help people, but to help myself, right?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And it was, it was not, it was not. I was not at the level of maturity where I could just put myself aside and say, how can I be of service?

[Assistant] Well, you may just be being more honest than many people are, you know, because it's clear there's a self, there's a, you know, an individual role and purpose in doing it and there's a lot of personal benefit to it. And incidentally, you help and, you know, making the leap into someone else's shoes is not a simple process.

[User] That's true. But like Don, if I look at Don. Don was much more, he got more involved with the students. He went on trips with the students, took the trips students on a trip to northern Ghana and to Ouagadougou. He put on plays with the students. You know, I taught, and when I was through teaching, I went home.

[Assistant] And some of that may well have to do with personality difference. And it's not like he's a better person than you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. But like Don, if I look at Don. Don was much more, he got more involved with the students. He went on trips with the students, took the trips students on a trip to northern Ghana and to Ouagadougou. He put on plays with the students. You know, I taught, and when I was through teaching, I went home.

[Assistant] And some of that may well have to do with personality difference. And it's not like he's a better person than you.

[User] No, but at that time he was, you know, not better. But he was at a place in his life that. And he was Catholic. That's right. Very true. And he had grown up with the sense of a little more maturity in that sense than I had. I had struggled through, struggled through high school, struggled to make a living, and the struggled through, not struggled, but through Stanford was, you know. And I had not yet learned, I, my job was to figure out how I can make my way in life, not how I can be there for other people particularly.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] At that time.

[Assistant] I don't know if there's anything else you want to add, but that's as good a place to stop.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] We would like for you to start by telling us what your role or your responsibilities were with the Shuttle-Mir Program.

[User] My role was as a NASA ops lead. Generally, the majority of my time was probably spent in Russia, I would say, doing this task. We managed a team of folks to kind of be the eyes and ears for the astronauts on board. It involved things like keeping them up to date on what their schedule was going to include, any changes to activities, changes to experiments, passing information about experiments back to the payload developers, taking care of scheduling press events, things like that. So it was a little bit of everything over there. We also talked with the astronauts a couple times a day, just trying to keep them up to date on what was going on in the world, both within NASA and outside of places.

[Assistant] How many hours a day did that cover?

[User] It varied. I would say a standard day over there was probably ten or eleven hours a day, and it was six days a week, a little bit longer on weekends. What we would do, we would split teams. Our team was probably about nine or ten people at the most. It kind of grew about halfway through the program, so it wound up being about nine or ten people.\n\n What we would do, all ten of us would be there during the week, kind of at staggered shifts. We would cover from generally crew wake up, or about breakfast-time, until the crew went to bed. So we would be staggered in shifts to cover that period of time during the week. Then on weekends we would generally pick about a twelve-hour portion out of the middle of the day to cover.

[Assistant] How long were you there? You said the minority of your time was in Russia, so what did that equate to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. The apartments are great. They do a good job of setting us up over there. I was basically in a two-bedroom, two-full-bath apartment. Kitchen had a dishwasher and a microwave. Washer and dryer, TV and stereo, and really all the comforts of home. We do have a capability, special phone lines to call back to the States pretty much any time we need to, so that helps a lot, too. I mean, just knowing that that's available to you.\n\n The apartments are great. In some way it's kind of like being in a dorm. It always reminds me of being back in college when I'm over there, because you have a bunch of people, and in general most of the folks that I work with were single, were about my age, so there were always people to go out and do stuff with, or just go to somebody's apartment and watch a movie and that sort of thing. So in a lot of ways that sort of makes or breaks your trip.\n\n It was like the first thing I would do, I would look at my schedule and see, okay, I'm supposed to go back here when. Who else is going to be there? You can have a great trip that way, and you can have a not-so-great trip that way, depending on kind of the mix of people you're over there with, because you're at work with them ten or eleven hours a day, and so they're not only your co-workers, they're your social network, too. I mean, they're the people you're doing stuff in the evenings with. So it's important.

[Assistant] You could start a whole family over there, I guess.

[User] You could.

[Assistant] Everybody's very close in bond?

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] How is it different on your seven-month stay compared to the first time you went to support John Blaha there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could.

[Assistant] Everybody's very close in bond?

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] How is it different on your seven-month stay compared to the first time you went to support John Blaha there?

[User] I would say Moscow has changed a lot. The first time I was there was actually probably about a year or two before John Blaha's mission. I was only there, I'll say "only" two weeks, two or three weeks, which at the time seemed like this huge amount of time. Now it seems like hardly worth unpacking. But the city itself has changed a lot, and NASA has gotten a lot better about supporting people over there.\n\n Living in the apartments is just a huge difference. For the first, I think, probably two or three trips I had over there, I was living in the Penta [phonetic] Hotel, which, it's a great hotel, but being in a hotel for eight weeks at a time, it's tough. I mean, things like doing laundry. I think through the Penta I actually had to do laundry through there once. It cost me like $136 or something. It was something ridiculous like that. But you find ways around it. You have some people washing out their clothes in the sink or the bathtub. We actually found this Russian woman that was kind of running a laundry service, so she would come by and she did a great job, so we used her.

[Assistant] How did you learn the language to converse with people like that laundry person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. The time difference, it's a nine-hour time difference between Houston and Moscow. So really, in general, by the time the day is starting to wind down in Moscow, say, around five or six, that's when folks are just coming in over here. If it was something important, of course, you would page Frank or we would do what we needed to. But in general, you try to handle the mini emergencies as they would come up. So it was interesting.

[Assistant] You said you were there for Christmas, so that means it was cold there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you adapt to the cold weather?

[User] It really wasn't that bad. I grew up in the Northeast, so I was used to cold weather. It never really got just blistering cold, like "I don't want to leave my apartment" cold. It was probably about 20 degree Fahrenheit, which was warmer than I expected. The problem was it stayed that way for three months, three or four months.\n\n I did this last trip all wrong. I spent my winter in Moscow and my summer in Houston. So I need to get smarter about that.

[Assistant] Were you there all different seasons, since you were there the 400 days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you adapt to the cold weather?

[User] It really wasn't that bad. I grew up in the Northeast, so I was used to cold weather. It never really got just blistering cold, like "I don't want to leave my apartment" cold. It was probably about 20 degree Fahrenheit, which was warmer than I expected. The problem was it stayed that way for three months, three or four months.\n\n I did this last trip all wrong. I spent my winter in Moscow and my summer in Houston. So I need to get smarter about that.

[Assistant] Were you there all different seasons, since you were there the 400 days?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you get to see Russia in its full cycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really wasn't that bad. I grew up in the Northeast, so I was used to cold weather. It never really got just blistering cold, like "I don't want to leave my apartment" cold. It was probably about 20 degree Fahrenheit, which was warmer than I expected. The problem was it stayed that way for three months, three or four months.\n\n I did this last trip all wrong. I spent my winter in Moscow and my summer in Houston. So I need to get smarter about that.

[Assistant] Were you there all different seasons, since you were there the 400 days?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you get to see Russia in its full cycle?

[User] Yes. I think, in general, I did. I think I hit most of the major holidays over there.

[Assistant] Our holidays or theirs, or both?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you get to see Russia in its full cycle?

[User] Yes. I think, in general, I did. I think I hit most of the major holidays over there.

[Assistant] Our holidays or theirs, or both?

[User] Probably both. But the last trip I was there I hit Christmas and New Year's. It was the first Christmas I'd been away from home, so that was kind of strange. But you had eight other people in the same situation, so we all had a big Christmas dinner and we watched "The Grinch." Somebody brought "The Grinch" video over and we had a little gift exchange. It made it nice.\n\n New Year's was terrific over there. That's probably one of the best New Year's Eves we've had over there. We said, "Oh, we're all going to go to Red Square." I thought Red Square's just going to be packed. We got down there and they had bands like set up right outside of Red Square, so there was a big crowd out there. But really in Red Square there was maybe a couple hundred people, which is nothing with the size of the place. So I won't forget that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Does Russia sponsor activities for New Year's, or was this just all individual things that people had done for the holiday outside of Red Square?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think, in general, I did. I think I hit most of the major holidays over there.

[Assistant] Our holidays or theirs, or both?

[User] Probably both. But the last trip I was there I hit Christmas and New Year's. It was the first Christmas I'd been away from home, so that was kind of strange. But you had eight other people in the same situation, so we all had a big Christmas dinner and we watched "The Grinch." Somebody brought "The Grinch" video over and we had a little gift exchange. It made it nice.\n\n New Year's was terrific over there. That's probably one of the best New Year's Eves we've had over there. We said, "Oh, we're all going to go to Red Square." I thought Red Square's just going to be packed. We got down there and they had bands like set up right outside of Red Square, so there was a big crowd out there. But really in Red Square there was maybe a couple hundred people, which is nothing with the size of the place. So I won't forget that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Does Russia sponsor activities for New Year's, or was this just all individual things that people had done for the holiday outside of Red Square?

[User] Outside of Red Square it was all sponsored. Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where there's a lot of advertising there. Even you go in Red Square and every once in a while you'll see somebody's hung up banners for whatever. So I don't remember who was sponsoring whatever this New Year's Eve thing was. They had big screens. You could see the bands playing.

[Assistant] I guess that was a different setting compared to maybe when you were there the first time around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably both. But the last trip I was there I hit Christmas and New Year's. It was the first Christmas I'd been away from home, so that was kind of strange. But you had eight other people in the same situation, so we all had a big Christmas dinner and we watched "The Grinch." Somebody brought "The Grinch" video over and we had a little gift exchange. It made it nice.\n\n New Year's was terrific over there. That's probably one of the best New Year's Eves we've had over there. We said, "Oh, we're all going to go to Red Square." I thought Red Square's just going to be packed. We got down there and they had bands like set up right outside of Red Square, so there was a big crowd out there. But really in Red Square there was maybe a couple hundred people, which is nothing with the size of the place. So I won't forget that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Does Russia sponsor activities for New Year's, or was this just all individual things that people had done for the holiday outside of Red Square?

[User] Outside of Red Square it was all sponsored. Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where there's a lot of advertising there. Even you go in Red Square and every once in a while you'll see somebody's hung up banners for whatever. So I don't remember who was sponsoring whatever this New Year's Eve thing was. They had big screens. You could see the bands playing.

[Assistant] I guess that was a different setting compared to maybe when you were there the first time around.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because of the changes that are being made there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Outside of Red Square it was all sponsored. Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where there's a lot of advertising there. Even you go in Red Square and every once in a while you'll see somebody's hung up banners for whatever. So I don't remember who was sponsoring whatever this New Year's Eve thing was. They had big screens. You could see the bands playing.

[Assistant] I guess that was a different setting compared to maybe when you were there the first time around.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because of the changes that are being made there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you see changes being made also in the areas where you were living? You mentioned the apartments were there. Were the apartments new compared to when you were there and stayed at the hotel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because of the changes that are being made there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you see changes being made also in the areas where you were living? You mentioned the apartments were there. Were the apartments new compared to when you were there and stayed at the hotel?

[User] As far as I know, the apartments were there while I was living at the hotel. We did have some folks living in the apartments. Generally, we put our really long-term people there, the ones that were going to be there for four or five months. When I was living at the hotel, the most it was, was two months or something. I'm pretty sure there simply weren't apartments available, additional apartments available in that area. But NASA's continuing to kind of scoop up the apartments that are over there. For Phase Two, that is where all our people will be housed over there.

[Assistant] About the commute, how long did it take you to get and from work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you see changes being made also in the areas where you were living? You mentioned the apartments were there. Were the apartments new compared to when you were there and stayed at the hotel?

[User] As far as I know, the apartments were there while I was living at the hotel. We did have some folks living in the apartments. Generally, we put our really long-term people there, the ones that were going to be there for four or five months. When I was living at the hotel, the most it was, was two months or something. I'm pretty sure there simply weren't apartments available, additional apartments available in that area. But NASA's continuing to kind of scoop up the apartments that are over there. For Phase Two, that is where all our people will be housed over there.

[Assistant] About the commute, how long did it take you to get and from work?

[User] It was probably about half an hour, forty minutes, by van. Traffic is insane over there. I can remember the first couple weeks I was over there, it was white knuckles the whole way.\n\n [Brief interruption] Actually, a couple of our interpreters are here visiting from Moscow.\n\n Traffic is just a mess over there. Like I said, the first couple weeks was bad. After that, it's nothing. It doesn't even faze you anymore.

[Assistant] But you didn't have to drive, you always had someone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as I know, the apartments were there while I was living at the hotel. We did have some folks living in the apartments. Generally, we put our really long-term people there, the ones that were going to be there for four or five months. When I was living at the hotel, the most it was, was two months or something. I'm pretty sure there simply weren't apartments available, additional apartments available in that area. But NASA's continuing to kind of scoop up the apartments that are over there. For Phase Two, that is where all our people will be housed over there.

[Assistant] About the commute, how long did it take you to get and from work?

[User] It was probably about half an hour, forty minutes, by van. Traffic is insane over there. I can remember the first couple weeks I was over there, it was white knuckles the whole way.\n\n [Brief interruption] Actually, a couple of our interpreters are here visiting from Moscow.\n\n Traffic is just a mess over there. Like I said, the first couple weeks was bad. After that, it's nothing. It doesn't even faze you anymore.

[Assistant] But you didn't have to drive, you always had someone?

[User] Exactly, yes. We always had a van taking us back and forth.

[Assistant] So that was a good thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was probably about half an hour, forty minutes, by van. Traffic is insane over there. I can remember the first couple weeks I was over there, it was white knuckles the whole way.\n\n [Brief interruption] Actually, a couple of our interpreters are here visiting from Moscow.\n\n Traffic is just a mess over there. Like I said, the first couple weeks was bad. After that, it's nothing. It doesn't even faze you anymore.

[Assistant] But you didn't have to drive, you always had someone?

[User] Exactly, yes. We always had a van taking us back and forth.

[Assistant] So that was a good thing.

[User] Yes, thank heavens.

[Assistant] What about excursions? Did you have a chance to go do anything on your free time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, yes. We always had a van taking us back and forth.

[Assistant] So that was a good thing.

[User] Yes, thank heavens.

[Assistant] What about excursions? Did you have a chance to go do anything on your free time?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] I'm sure it was wonderful. Did you get to take some trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, this is a good story. There is a guy that works over in psychological support. He's one of the people that sets up family conferences. When the Progress resupply vehicles go up, his group is responsible for getting the things the crew member wants on there, maybe some more books or movies or photographs or candy or whatever on there. But this guy is a big Green Bay Packers fan, and this friend of his is a big New England Patriots fan, who has spent a ton of time in Moscow. It just so happened a couple of years ago, the Packers played the Patriots in the Super Bowl. So the Packers fan, Steve, had this party and he had this big Packers banner up. Sometime during the party that banner disappeared.\n\n I won't point any fingers, but that people have taken that banner basically all over the world and have been photographed with the banner. It's been everywhere. I know it's been down to Australia. It's been to Antarctica. It went with the cosmonauts on survival training in Siberia or up at the Black Sea. It's been on orbit. It's been on Mir. It's just been everywhere.\n\n We realized, this was back in February, this friend of mine called and said, "The banner's never been to Africa. You want to go to Cairo?"\n\n I'm like, "Yes. Let's do it."\n\n So we were there, it was just for a weekend, but we went. So I've got a picture of me on a camel holding the banner in front of the pyramids.

[Assistant] All these pictures, do they go back to the original owner?

[User] The original owner, as of right now, I think he knows there's something up with the banner. He doesn't know where his banner is. But there is somebody putting together a photo album, "The Travels Of The Banner." This banner has been absolutely everywhere.

[Assistant] So he's been left in the dark and everybody else is having a good time with it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, how funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The original owner, as of right now, I think he knows there's something up with the banner. He doesn't know where his banner is. But there is somebody putting together a photo album, "The Travels Of The Banner." This banner has been absolutely everywhere.

[Assistant] So he's been left in the dark and everybody else is having a good time with it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, how funny.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Are you going to try to get as many people together as you can when you give him the album?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, how funny.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Are you going to try to get as many people together as you can when you give him the album?

[User] We've been talking about how to--we actually have to give him the banner back, too. So we've been talking about what's the best way to do this. We were trying to figure out someway, gosh, does anybody know anybody in the Green Bay Packers? Could we get Brett Favre to present this banner to him? I think folks are still trying to figure out--

[Assistant] They may go for it. That's a great PR story, that it's been everywhere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've been talking about how to--we actually have to give him the banner back, too. So we've been talking about what's the best way to do this. We were trying to figure out someway, gosh, does anybody know anybody in the Green Bay Packers? Could we get Brett Favre to present this banner to him? I think folks are still trying to figure out--

[Assistant] They may go for it. That's a great PR story, that it's been everywhere.

[User] I think so, too. Yes, there's apparently a great picture of, I think, it's on the Shuttle, but it's got Mike Foale in one corner and Wendy Lawrence with one corner, and this thing's in the mid deck.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did all of you try to work together to keep a light atmosphere? You know, having things like that always seems to make people have a good time together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, too. Yes, there's apparently a great picture of, I think, it's on the Shuttle, but it's got Mike Foale in one corner and Wendy Lawrence with one corner, and this thing's in the mid deck.

[Assistant] That's terrific.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did all of you try to work together to keep a light atmosphere? You know, having things like that always seems to make people have a good time together.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is that something that everybody tried to do, is keep that type of attitude?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did all of you try to work together to keep a light atmosphere? You know, having things like that always seems to make people have a good time together.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is that something that everybody tried to do, is keep that type of attitude?

[User] You try to. With some folks, it depended on what was going on during the mission. Andy's mission was probably the smoothest one I worked. In general, the mood over there was really good. When there were problems going on, on other people's missions, it was tough over there. You also get into a mode where if you have somebody coming over for six weeks, the first week they're over there, they're still trying to get adjusted and get into the swing of things. Then the last, probably, two weeks they're there it's, "When's my plane?" That sort of thing. So it's tough.\n\n Luckily, we always had a flow of people coming in and out. We tried not to swap everybody out at the same time, so you wouldn't have those kind of spikes and lulls.

[Assistant] Have a good exchange of information?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Is that something that everybody tried to do, is keep that type of attitude?

[User] You try to. With some folks, it depended on what was going on during the mission. Andy's mission was probably the smoothest one I worked. In general, the mood over there was really good. When there were problems going on, on other people's missions, it was tough over there. You also get into a mode where if you have somebody coming over for six weeks, the first week they're over there, they're still trying to get adjusted and get into the swing of things. Then the last, probably, two weeks they're there it's, "When's my plane?" That sort of thing. So it's tough.\n\n Luckily, we always had a flow of people coming in and out. We tried not to swap everybody out at the same time, so you wouldn't have those kind of spikes and lulls.

[Assistant] Have a good exchange of information?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess, everybody that came in had something new to say?