[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, anyway, you know, it kind of went on to watch how things were going. And just went nominal. The crews had a great time, you know. The—Pete and Alan Bean bouncing around on the Moon, they had a wonderful time visiting that Surveyor, taking some—

[Assistant] They brought pieces of it back.

[User] ——some pieces of it back. Cutting them off and bringing them back proved that we could, indeed, land at a particular point. So, that set the basis for the scientific planning for the traverses that was in work and was going to be accentuated over the next couple of missions. And came back, and essentially had a fairly normal flight from their point of view of all the standard phases that we worry about. But landing by the Surveyor was done. And it was a set of techniques that had been developed to help these planners, that would, you know, convert it into things that we could actually do with ourselves and with the ground crew—with the air crews and—and get the vehicle knowing where it was and where it wanted to go, and get there properly. So, it worked fine and set us up for the later lunar exploration missions.

[Assistant] Set you up, also, for what was going to happen next, which we’ve covered in a prior interview. Set you up for Apollo 13.

[User] Apollo 13.

[Assistant] Because by the time 12 had come and gone, you’d been through two lunar missions that had been very successful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ——some pieces of it back. Cutting them off and bringing them back proved that we could, indeed, land at a particular point. So, that set the basis for the scientific planning for the traverses that was in work and was going to be accentuated over the next couple of missions. And came back, and essentially had a fairly normal flight from their point of view of all the standard phases that we worry about. But landing by the Surveyor was done. And it was a set of techniques that had been developed to help these planners, that would, you know, convert it into things that we could actually do with ourselves and with the ground crew—with the air crews and—and get the vehicle knowing where it was and where it wanted to go, and get there properly. So, it worked fine and set us up for the later lunar exploration missions.

[Assistant] Set you up, also, for what was going to happen next, which we’ve covered in a prior interview. Set you up for Apollo 13.

[User] Apollo 13.

[Assistant] Because by the time 12 had come and gone, you’d been through two lunar missions that had been very successful.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] So, it was—it somewhat took people here by surprise when 13 ran into trouble, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Apollo 13.

[Assistant] Because by the time 12 had come and gone, you’d been through two lunar missions that had been very successful.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] So, it was—it somewhat took people here by surprise when 13 ran into trouble, didn’t it?

[User] Oh! Well, yes.

[Assistant] To say the least.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh! Well, yes.

[Assistant] To say the least.

[User] To say the least. Not only that, certainly the extent of the trouble—

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] —how it played itself out. But, you know. Yes, it was quite a shock to all of us. And this had been a lot of—there was a lot of talk about how the coverage of the Apollo flights had decreased over time. And there was a noticeable drop off in the coverage that went with Apollo 13.

[Assistant] You’re talking the television, the media.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I gather that there was a set of things that occurred in terms of the crew assignments that could have been the case.

[Assistant] Probably just as well it worked out the way that it did.

[User] Probably. But again, as I said, to me the crews were relatively interchangeable. I think either crew could’ve ended up with either mission, and it would’ve come out about the same.

[Assistant] As you moved into Apollo 15, however, here was a different matter. Now you began seeing the science side of the house exercising itself.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Dave [David R.] Scott was the commander.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. But again, as I said, to me the crews were relatively interchangeable. I think either crew could’ve ended up with either mission, and it would’ve come out about the same.

[Assistant] As you moved into Apollo 15, however, here was a different matter. Now you began seeing the science side of the house exercising itself.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Dave [David R.] Scott was the commander.

[User] Dave Scott and Jim [James] Irwin and—

[Assistant] Al [Alfred M.] Worden.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh very.

[Assistant] —of handling the media.

[User] Very good. Very good at that—

[Assistant] Of course, being the Russian commander.

[User] ——very good at that, and I would say in other things. Very good at being a capitalist probably. And probably in America would have been a gangbusters capitalist. But that’s an accident of where we’re born, you know, and we don’t have a heck of a lot that we can say or do about that. We just are born in one place or another; and actually for me, having spent years dealing with people there, ultimately, you know, on a fairly personal basis, where you get to know people pretty well and their families and so on, they became human beings for me. Not stereotypes. And you know, today, I’ve been struck with, because of the difficulties that the—that Russia is going through—economic difficulties—that reflects itself in so much hardship on their people, an awful lot of people over there are suffering because of some decisions and actions that people took 75, 85 years ago and played out through history. And it’s just amazing how many hundreds of millions of people, in that country alone, have been affected, adversely now, by bad decisions, bad implementation, and so on. And I feel for them. I mean, I feel sorry for them. No fault of their own.\n\n They were born where they were born. They did the best they could, probably, or tried to survive in—with the rules of the game as they were laid out for them. Like filling out your IRS [internal revenue service] forms. I mean, we don’t make them, we just have to comply with them. And, you know, most of them are in the same condition. And they’re just trying to take care of themselves and raise their families and so on. And—difficult for them. I mean, they’re in a difficult situation, and it’s going to take them a long time to recover from it.

[Assistant] As you moved into that arena, for the first time you really had an opportunity to study the Russian hardware—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The only thing I really remember about Hubble is I know that there were some issues about—because this was being part of the Management Council and hearing what the various organizations were talking about. There were issues about the specifications and the tradeoffs between spacecraft versus instrument, and payload versus shuttle. Goddard was doing a lot of the instruments. The spacecraft was being done by [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama].\n\n There was a fair amount of inter-center rivalry going on there, and there also was a manned versus unmanned space rivalry, that I am confident still exists. And so you’d hear things like that, about how, “Are these requirements that the Shuttle Program is now putting on?” All of a sudden they’d come up with new—according to the people I was talking to, which were the Goddard ones, they’d say all of a sudden they would get these new sets of requirements from the Shuttle Program about vibration or this or that or something, which would make them go back a long way and start requalifying and doing a whole bunch of stuff. And they just were very unhappy, from time to time, over that. But I don’t think there were any big legal things that I remember. It’s just something that I remember was a very active topic of discussion around the Center when I was there.

[Assistant] Also during that time, the Solar Max [satellite] repair mission took place.

[User] Right. I do remember that.

[Assistant] Were there any issues related to that?

[User] I remember when the mission took place, and I remember all the presentations and the results. I honestly don’t recall. That’s a long time ago. That has to have been, what, eighteen years ago.

[Assistant] It’s been a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I do remember that.

[Assistant] Were there any issues related to that?

[User] I remember when the mission took place, and I remember all the presentations and the results. I honestly don’t recall. That’s a long time ago. That has to have been, what, eighteen years ago.

[Assistant] It’s been a while.

[User] Yes, because I left in October of [19]’85.

[Assistant] Do you feel like your aerospace background, as far as being an engineer, helped you in that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Typing on computer keyboard.] I don’t know if I spelled embassy right. Yes, lunar embassy world headquarters.

[Assistant] Maybe it should be loony embassy.

[User] [Reading] Buy yourself some space.

[Assistant] Goodness.

[User] [Reading] Christmas orders. Get your Christmas order in soon. Christmas is nearly upon us. Don’t worry if you’re late in ordering. At the end of our—or to make it available to you, register to receive this.

[Assistant] This would be interesting if people start putting in prior claims and then they—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Christmas orders. Let’s see. What’s this all about? It’s just bizarre. Here’s the latest news. Look at pictures, latest news. But anyway, quick buy. I’ve got to do that one. It says copyright to 1980, so it’s been around for a while.

[Assistant] Goodness gracious.

[User] Okay. [Reads] Register. Archive for fifteen bucks. Lunar properties, an acre, 19.99. Prime lunar properties with a deed with your name printed on it, as opposed to being without it, is 22.49. Yes, it’s just crazy. I mean, I guess there’s no reason you can’t do that, because there’s—here’s prime view Martian properties are also 22—same price.

[Assistant] Same price.

[User] You can get an atmosphere for the same price, just a thin atmosphere. So, at least one of them will also go and, like I said, you can buy stars or the entire asteroid belt or something. It’s crazy. But they’re just saying—they’re wrong. That’s all I can tell you. Or if they’re not wrong, it doesn’t matter.

[Assistant] You talked about what you felt was your significant accomplishment. What do you think was the most challenging point of your career with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. [Reads] Register. Archive for fifteen bucks. Lunar properties, an acre, 19.99. Prime lunar properties with a deed with your name printed on it, as opposed to being without it, is 22.49. Yes, it’s just crazy. I mean, I guess there’s no reason you can’t do that, because there’s—here’s prime view Martian properties are also 22—same price.

[Assistant] Same price.

[User] You can get an atmosphere for the same price, just a thin atmosphere. So, at least one of them will also go and, like I said, you can buy stars or the entire asteroid belt or something. It’s crazy. But they’re just saying—they’re wrong. That’s all I can tell you. Or if they’re not wrong, it doesn’t matter.

[Assistant] You talked about what you felt was your significant accomplishment. What do you think was the most challenging point of your career with NASA?

[User] Challenging in which way?

[Assistant] Challenging to you personally.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can get an atmosphere for the same price, just a thin atmosphere. So, at least one of them will also go and, like I said, you can buy stars or the entire asteroid belt or something. It’s crazy. But they’re just saying—they’re wrong. That’s all I can tell you. Or if they’re not wrong, it doesn’t matter.

[Assistant] You talked about what you felt was your significant accomplishment. What do you think was the most challenging point of your career with NASA?

[User] Challenging in which way?

[Assistant] Challenging to you personally.

[User] Getting through the Challenger accident. Getting through the Challenger accident. There’s no doubt about it. That was awful, personally. Professionally it was fine. I did okay as a lawyer. But so many people that you knew so well. It was just so hostile and for so long, that that was really, really hard. I think that would clearly be the time.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in any of the work relating to the Columbia disaster, as a consultant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Challenging in which way?

[Assistant] Challenging to you personally.

[User] Getting through the Challenger accident. Getting through the Challenger accident. There’s no doubt about it. That was awful, personally. Professionally it was fine. I did okay as a lawyer. But so many people that you knew so well. It was just so hostile and for so long, that that was really, really hard. I think that would clearly be the time.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in any of the work relating to the Columbia disaster, as a consultant?

[User] Very little. No, very little. I’ve gotten a couple of phone calls asking about what do I remember about this or that. A couple of reporters have called me. I was very happy I wasn’t there.

[Assistant] I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting through the Challenger accident. Getting through the Challenger accident. There’s no doubt about it. That was awful, personally. Professionally it was fine. I did okay as a lawyer. But so many people that you knew so well. It was just so hostile and for so long, that that was really, really hard. I think that would clearly be the time.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in any of the work relating to the Columbia disaster, as a consultant?

[User] Very little. No, very little. I’ve gotten a couple of phone calls asking about what do I remember about this or that. A couple of reporters have called me. I was very happy I wasn’t there.

[Assistant] I would imagine.

[User] Couldn’t have done a—I could have, but I wouldn’t have wanted to do a second one. I don’t want anyone to ever have to do a third one. But it was just not—

[Assistant] Do you think NASA was better prepared for this event than they were for the Challenger, legally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little. No, very little. I’ve gotten a couple of phone calls asking about what do I remember about this or that. A couple of reporters have called me. I was very happy I wasn’t there.

[Assistant] I would imagine.

[User] Couldn’t have done a—I could have, but I wouldn’t have wanted to do a second one. I don’t want anyone to ever have to do a third one. But it was just not—

[Assistant] Do you think NASA was better prepared for this event than they were for the Challenger, legally?

[User] Legally? No, I don’t think so. I think they were legally just about the same place. The problem—the thing is, not the problem; the thing is it was no longer an unimaginable event, and so it got a moderate amount of attention, but nothing like Challenger did; just nothing like Challenger did, which I’m glad for the people who had to live through it. Not saying that this has been good, because it certainly hasn’t, and they’re not through with it yet and I think there’s still more hearings coming up and all that. And who knows what’s going to happen to the Shuttle system.\n\n But you didn’t have the accusations of criminality and the moral stuff, and the stuff that was really heart-wrenching, other than, obviously—and please don’t make it sound like I’m not saying that it wasn’t heart-wrenching to see what happened to the families and the people and those—and they’re wonderful people who died, and all that. But the extra stuff that was going on that was sort of the extracurricular stuff out of Challenger was much, much greater.\n\n I think that part of it’s just it’s the second one, and I think the country has become more inured and are probably a little harder now, and less empathetic. You know, whatever. I don’t know.

[Assistant] When you decided to retire from NASA, you had been in the General Counsel position longer than anyone else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Couldn’t have done a—I could have, but I wouldn’t have wanted to do a second one. I don’t want anyone to ever have to do a third one. But it was just not—

[Assistant] Do you think NASA was better prepared for this event than they were for the Challenger, legally?

[User] Legally? No, I don’t think so. I think they were legally just about the same place. The problem—the thing is, not the problem; the thing is it was no longer an unimaginable event, and so it got a moderate amount of attention, but nothing like Challenger did; just nothing like Challenger did, which I’m glad for the people who had to live through it. Not saying that this has been good, because it certainly hasn’t, and they’re not through with it yet and I think there’s still more hearings coming up and all that. And who knows what’s going to happen to the Shuttle system.\n\n But you didn’t have the accusations of criminality and the moral stuff, and the stuff that was really heart-wrenching, other than, obviously—and please don’t make it sound like I’m not saying that it wasn’t heart-wrenching to see what happened to the families and the people and those—and they’re wonderful people who died, and all that. But the extra stuff that was going on that was sort of the extracurricular stuff out of Challenger was much, much greater.\n\n I think that part of it’s just it’s the second one, and I think the country has become more inured and are probably a little harder now, and less empathetic. You know, whatever. I don’t know.

[Assistant] When you decided to retire from NASA, you had been in the General Counsel position longer than anyone else.

[User] By quite a bit.

[Assistant] What brought about your decision to retire when you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's fine with me.

[Assistant] All right. Could you start out with talking about your career more broadly speaking? Do you mind giving an overview of your career at the National Archives?

[User] Yes, I went to the center in 1964, and I was a file clerk at that time. And then I became the supervisor of a file unit in 1965. And from there I went to different things. I went to the Accession unit downstairs, where we accessioned records into the center. And from there I went to the mailroom. I was supervisor of the mailroom then. And then from there, I went to the chief of the Army correspondence section. And I retired from there.

[Assistant] Okay. It sounds like you wore a lot of different hats throughout your career.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] How many years in total did you work for the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went to the center in 1964, and I was a file clerk at that time. And then I became the supervisor of a file unit in 1965. And from there I went to different things. I went to the Accession unit downstairs, where we accessioned records into the center. And from there I went to the mailroom. I was supervisor of the mailroom then. And then from there, I went to the chief of the Army correspondence section. And I retired from there.

[Assistant] Okay. It sounds like you wore a lot of different hats throughout your career.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] How many years in total did you work for the National Archives?

[User] 35 years.

[Assistant] 35. Okay. That's some dedication, I would say, to the agency. Can you talk about what your responsibilities were at your different jobs that you did for the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] How many years in total did you work for the National Archives?

[User] 35 years.

[Assistant] 35. Okay. That's some dedication, I would say, to the agency. Can you talk about what your responsibilities were at your different jobs that you did for the National Archives?

[User] Okay. When I was a file clerk, when records were pulled to be sent to the correspondence units to answer correspondence, then they had to be returned to the files. My job was to put them back in the files where they came from, whether it was Army, Navy, or whatever files they came from. And when I was supervisor of that, then I was the supervisor of getting the records from the correspondence section, having people get them from the correspondence units, and putting them in order and getting back in file. Also we filed loose papers that needed to be inserted in the records. Maybe documents that were sent from the Department of the Army or Navy, and they needed to be put in the person's record. Then from there, I went to the accession downstairs where you accessioned the new records coming into the center. They had to be keypunched in and put into the computer system at that time. Then we had a registry file, and it didn't make any difference what service you were in, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, you were assigned a number and put in order in this file. That was the registry file. That's where I was at the time of the fire.

[Assistant] Okay. I think you mentioned in our earlier conversation that you were actually in the Navy prior to joining the National Archives. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 35 years.

[Assistant] 35. Okay. That's some dedication, I would say, to the agency. Can you talk about what your responsibilities were at your different jobs that you did for the National Archives?

[User] Okay. When I was a file clerk, when records were pulled to be sent to the correspondence units to answer correspondence, then they had to be returned to the files. My job was to put them back in the files where they came from, whether it was Army, Navy, or whatever files they came from. And when I was supervisor of that, then I was the supervisor of getting the records from the correspondence section, having people get them from the correspondence units, and putting them in order and getting back in file. Also we filed loose papers that needed to be inserted in the records. Maybe documents that were sent from the Department of the Army or Navy, and they needed to be put in the person's record. Then from there, I went to the accession downstairs where you accessioned the new records coming into the center. They had to be keypunched in and put into the computer system at that time. Then we had a registry file, and it didn't make any difference what service you were in, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, you were assigned a number and put in order in this file. That was the registry file. That's where I was at the time of the fire.

[Assistant] Okay. I think you mentioned in our earlier conversation that you were actually in the Navy prior to joining the National Archives. Is that correct?

[User] I was in the Navy, yes. From 1958 to '61 on active duty.

[Assistant] Great. Can you talk about what it was like transitioning from the Navy to working at the National Archives? Was there anything about being in the Navy that influenced your decision to work at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the Navy, yes. From 1958 to '61 on active duty.

[Assistant] Great. Can you talk about what it was like transitioning from the Navy to working at the National Archives? Was there anything about being in the Navy that influenced your decision to work at the National Archives?

[User] It helped me. When I got out of the service, I started at the Post Office, really, when I got out of the service. I had nothing but day and night shifts, and I didn't particularly like that change. So there were openings at the center, and I applied for it. I thought that was interesting the more I got into it. It was very interesting and also enlightening as to all the stuff that goes on in the military that you don't even think about.

[Assistant] What sorts of things? Do you remember? Do you recall what those things were?

[User] Well, I mean, all the records that you get from all over, and they're the files of all the people that served in the service. And it just brings to light how great a country it really is.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about your impressions when you first started working at the agency? I know you just said it kind of expanded how you thought about the military, the U.S. military, and their operations and the manpower that it takes to do all of that. Do you mind talking a little bit about some of your other impressions that you had of the National Archives, in particular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It helped me. When I got out of the service, I started at the Post Office, really, when I got out of the service. I had nothing but day and night shifts, and I didn't particularly like that change. So there were openings at the center, and I applied for it. I thought that was interesting the more I got into it. It was very interesting and also enlightening as to all the stuff that goes on in the military that you don't even think about.

[Assistant] What sorts of things? Do you remember? Do you recall what those things were?

[User] Well, I mean, all the records that you get from all over, and they're the files of all the people that served in the service. And it just brings to light how great a country it really is.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about your impressions when you first started working at the agency? I know you just said it kind of expanded how you thought about the military, the U.S. military, and their operations and the manpower that it takes to do all of that. Do you mind talking a little bit about some of your other impressions that you had of the National Archives, in particular?

[User] Yes. The day that I was interviewed, it happened that the supervisor took me through there. We went to the Marine Corps and the Navy section, and he showed us the files. Here these files were nine shelves high in cabinets. And the records were filed by the person's service number. That was the Marine Corps. And I'm thinking, "Wow!" These records went back to, I mean, in the Marine Corps, went back into the 1800s and then came forward. I'm thinking, "Wow!" And then as you went along, you just found out that it went up to the present time. And then the Navy files were similar, only they were filed alphabetically by your name. I'm thinking, "Oh, wow! Look at all these people." And you could tell at that time people were identified by their service numbers.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm sure the amount of records that they had even back then was pretty astounding to see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, all the records that you get from all over, and they're the files of all the people that served in the service. And it just brings to light how great a country it really is.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about your impressions when you first started working at the agency? I know you just said it kind of expanded how you thought about the military, the U.S. military, and their operations and the manpower that it takes to do all of that. Do you mind talking a little bit about some of your other impressions that you had of the National Archives, in particular?

[User] Yes. The day that I was interviewed, it happened that the supervisor took me through there. We went to the Marine Corps and the Navy section, and he showed us the files. Here these files were nine shelves high in cabinets. And the records were filed by the person's service number. That was the Marine Corps. And I'm thinking, "Wow!" These records went back to, I mean, in the Marine Corps, went back into the 1800s and then came forward. I'm thinking, "Wow!" And then as you went along, you just found out that it went up to the present time. And then the Navy files were similar, only they were filed alphabetically by your name. I'm thinking, "Oh, wow! Look at all these people." And you could tell at that time people were identified by their service numbers.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm sure the amount of records that they had even back then was pretty astounding to see.

[User] It was! For somebody that was not used to seeing such a thing, it really opened your eyes as to what it really, really takes to put things together as far as your military.

[Assistant] Right. And I'm sure you probably felt a little bit like you're part of a long line of people that have been in the military and have served in the military.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The day that I was interviewed, it happened that the supervisor took me through there. We went to the Marine Corps and the Navy section, and he showed us the files. Here these files were nine shelves high in cabinets. And the records were filed by the person's service number. That was the Marine Corps. And I'm thinking, "Wow!" These records went back to, I mean, in the Marine Corps, went back into the 1800s and then came forward. I'm thinking, "Wow!" And then as you went along, you just found out that it went up to the present time. And then the Navy files were similar, only they were filed alphabetically by your name. I'm thinking, "Oh, wow! Look at all these people." And you could tell at that time people were identified by their service numbers.

[Assistant] Yes, I'm sure the amount of records that they had even back then was pretty astounding to see.

[User] It was! For somebody that was not used to seeing such a thing, it really opened your eyes as to what it really, really takes to put things together as far as your military.

[Assistant] Right. And I'm sure you probably felt a little bit like you're part of a long line of people that have been in the military and have served in the military.

[User] Yes!

[Assistant] Can you talk about the sort of training that the National Archives provided you when you first started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was! For somebody that was not used to seeing such a thing, it really opened your eyes as to what it really, really takes to put things together as far as your military.

[Assistant] Right. And I'm sure you probably felt a little bit like you're part of a long line of people that have been in the military and have served in the military.

[User] Yes!

[Assistant] Can you talk about the sort of training that the National Archives provided you when you first started?

[User] Well, they taught me the record systems of how they were filed and how they got started. As you went along, you learned different things. My first ones were with the Marine Corps and in the Navy section where the medical records for the Navy, for example, they were separate from the personnel file. And so you had two files for a Navy person. The Marine Corps, their medical records were in that, too, because they were part of the Navy system. It was just interesting how that was put together. As you went along, you learned a little bit about each year and how they retired these records.

[Assistant] Got it. In terms of the actual work itself, I know you did quite a few different things. It sounds like you had a lot of different experiences at the National Archives. Can you talk about the parts of the work that you really enjoyed and your day-to-day going into the office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes!

[Assistant] Can you talk about the sort of training that the National Archives provided you when you first started?

[User] Well, they taught me the record systems of how they were filed and how they got started. As you went along, you learned different things. My first ones were with the Marine Corps and in the Navy section where the medical records for the Navy, for example, they were separate from the personnel file. And so you had two files for a Navy person. The Marine Corps, their medical records were in that, too, because they were part of the Navy system. It was just interesting how that was put together. As you went along, you learned a little bit about each year and how they retired these records.

[Assistant] Got it. In terms of the actual work itself, I know you did quite a few different things. It sounds like you had a lot of different experiences at the National Archives. Can you talk about the parts of the work that you really enjoyed and your day-to-day going into the office?

[User] I really, really enjoyed the accessioning of the records because you got the records in and then you keypunched them into the computer and they were labeled, and then they would go on the shelves for service, and you felt you were actually putting records to make them available for people to respond for correspondence. I thought that was pretty good because you had to make sure they were keypunched in right and they were filed right. And you have some interesting things there.

[Assistant] It sounds like it was very precise work. As in you had to be very, as you said, things were keypunched in correctly. Everything is dotting your I's and crossing your T's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really, really enjoyed the accessioning of the records because you got the records in and then you keypunched them into the computer and they were labeled, and then they would go on the shelves for service, and you felt you were actually putting records to make them available for people to respond for correspondence. I thought that was pretty good because you had to make sure they were keypunched in right and they were filed right. And you have some interesting things there.

[Assistant] It sounds like it was very precise work. As in you had to be very, as you said, things were keypunched in correctly. Everything is dotting your I's and crossing your T's.

[User] Right. Then the people had to label them up. And then the people that were putting them together had to be conscientious and get that done. I had a good group of people that did that and then had some young men that took the files up and put them in file order. They did a remarkable job of getting that done because you have to lift and put the boxes on the shelves in order. That was good.

[Assistant] We'll get to more stuff about the fire in a minute. But just to round out your history of your career with the National Archives, can you talk briefly about what were some of the fire-related challenges that you faced in your career with the agency? Because I know you were there both before and after the fire occurred.

[User] I'm wondering exactly what you're asking about.

[Assistant] That's okay. Were there any challenges related to the fire that impacted your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Then the people had to label them up. And then the people that were putting them together had to be conscientious and get that done. I had a good group of people that did that and then had some young men that took the files up and put them in file order. They did a remarkable job of getting that done because you have to lift and put the boxes on the shelves in order. That was good.

[Assistant] We'll get to more stuff about the fire in a minute. But just to round out your history of your career with the National Archives, can you talk briefly about what were some of the fire-related challenges that you faced in your career with the agency? Because I know you were there both before and after the fire occurred.

[User] I'm wondering exactly what you're asking about.

[Assistant] That's okay. Were there any challenges related to the fire that impacted your career?

[User] Other than the fact that you'd seen a whole lot of records that were burned, and you just wondered, a lot of their personal Army history was lost. There was not a whole lot that could be done and bring that back. That was awful sad.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. Losing that many files, and there's really nothing you can do to replace them and bring them back is, I'm sure, really frustrating for someone whose life is about preserving these files and making sure that they continue into the future. Could you talk about any changes in Presidential administrations or administrations of the Archivist of the United States? Did that have any impact on your work at all, or do you recall any of those changes, specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm wondering exactly what you're asking about.

[Assistant] That's okay. Were there any challenges related to the fire that impacted your career?

[User] Other than the fact that you'd seen a whole lot of records that were burned, and you just wondered, a lot of their personal Army history was lost. There was not a whole lot that could be done and bring that back. That was awful sad.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. Losing that many files, and there's really nothing you can do to replace them and bring them back is, I'm sure, really frustrating for someone whose life is about preserving these files and making sure that they continue into the future. Could you talk about any changes in Presidential administrations or administrations of the Archivist of the United States? Did that have any impact on your work at all, or do you recall any of those changes, specifically?

[User] I don't recall any changes like that. It seemed like whatever they needed to get things done, it seemed like they provided the funds to do whatever needed to be done. Where I was, I got almost anything that was practical and necessary to get the job done.

[Assistant] Okay. That's good to hear. Did you make any interesting discoveries through your work at the National Archives? I know, for instance, you said earlier that seeing all of those military records was really eye opening. Were there any other interesting discoveries that you feel like you made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall any changes like that. It seemed like whatever they needed to get things done, it seemed like they provided the funds to do whatever needed to be done. Where I was, I got almost anything that was practical and necessary to get the job done.

[Assistant] Okay. That's good to hear. Did you make any interesting discoveries through your work at the National Archives? I know, for instance, you said earlier that seeing all of those military records was really eye opening. Were there any other interesting discoveries that you feel like you made?

[User] Oh, it was interesting. This is just funny. One of the things in the correspondence section, for example, when I worked, people used to write in and want copies of something from Elvis Presley's records. His records were at the center, but they were with the Department of the Army. But they could get certain documents from that. So you'd have to get his records and they would answer it and you'd send it back. And I'm thinking, "Wow, all the people in the world and here's a person that you’d just seen in the thing..." But there were others like that. I remember that, I didn't see it, but they had to pull records of anybody that made national news, like when Kennedy got shot. They pulled the records and sent them to Washington. But I wasn't in on any of those as far as pulling the records are concerned.

[Assistant] That's funny, though, that a lot of people wanted Elvis Presley's records.

[User] Right! Yes, it was interesting because I never even thought about things like that.

[Assistant] Right. Of course. Did you observe any major technological advancements during your career? How did you see those impacting the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was interesting. This is just funny. One of the things in the correspondence section, for example, when I worked, people used to write in and want copies of something from Elvis Presley's records. His records were at the center, but they were with the Department of the Army. But they could get certain documents from that. So you'd have to get his records and they would answer it and you'd send it back. And I'm thinking, "Wow, all the people in the world and here's a person that you’d just seen in the thing..." But there were others like that. I remember that, I didn't see it, but they had to pull records of anybody that made national news, like when Kennedy got shot. They pulled the records and sent them to Washington. But I wasn't in on any of those as far as pulling the records are concerned.

[Assistant] That's funny, though, that a lot of people wanted Elvis Presley's records.

[User] Right! Yes, it was interesting because I never even thought about things like that.

[Assistant] Right. Of course. Did you observe any major technological advancements during your career? How did you see those impacting the National Archives?

[User] Oh, I saw a lot! One of the things is that being computerized helped things an awful lot because you could search on a computer and find out if you had a record on file rather quickly and then you could go and get it. Otherwise, you had to get a name and walk out there and find it alphabetically or numerically and that took a little more time. Sometimes with records where, for example, if you had Navy, you had a medical and you had a personnel record. Sometimes if you needed them both, you had to go to two different files to get it. You would still have to do that, but on a computer search, they would both come up and tell you where they were.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. That's much more convenient.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right! Yes, it was interesting because I never even thought about things like that.

[Assistant] Right. Of course. Did you observe any major technological advancements during your career? How did you see those impacting the National Archives?

[User] Oh, I saw a lot! One of the things is that being computerized helped things an awful lot because you could search on a computer and find out if you had a record on file rather quickly and then you could go and get it. Otherwise, you had to get a name and walk out there and find it alphabetically or numerically and that took a little more time. Sometimes with records where, for example, if you had Navy, you had a medical and you had a personnel record. Sometimes if you needed them both, you had to go to two different files to get it. You would still have to do that, but on a computer search, they would both come up and tell you where they were.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. That's much more convenient.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm sure that saved you a lot of time. Do you remember around what time things were computerized in the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm sure that saved you a lot of time. Do you remember around what time things were computerized in the National Archives?

[User] They started the registry file, I think, in 1964. It started off kind of slow. That was for people that were discharged after 1964.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] That was the year that they started the registry system, and they were just getting started. And then they kept adding to that as we went along. The Air Force and the Navy and Marine Corps and Coast Guard made up the first part of that, and then eventually we started getting more Army records.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember if people and staff in general really embraced the computerization of the records? Or was it tough to adjust to changes like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They started the registry file, I think, in 1964. It started off kind of slow. That was for people that were discharged after 1964.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] That was the year that they started the registry system, and they were just getting started. And then they kept adding to that as we went along. The Air Force and the Navy and Marine Corps and Coast Guard made up the first part of that, and then eventually we started getting more Army records.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember if people and staff in general really embraced the computerization of the records? Or was it tough to adjust to changes like that?

[User] I think they really embraced it, except that it was new and most of us were not in the computer age and how this was working. That was interesting how that was going to work. But, I mean, you get a record in and you assign a number to it and you put it in the computer and it tells you to go out and look at record 11, and that's where that record would be. Then you had to just get familiar with that instead of going out and looking alphabetically or numerically for this file, because you needed to know the person's full name and maybe a service number. And at that time, a lot of people did not always know their service numbers.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Okay. Got it. Can you talk about your relationship with other federal agencies? Did changes with those agencies impact your work? I'm thinking maybe the VA or the Army.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they really embraced it, except that it was new and most of us were not in the computer age and how this was working. That was interesting how that was going to work. But, I mean, you get a record in and you assign a number to it and you put it in the computer and it tells you to go out and look at record 11, and that's where that record would be. Then you had to just get familiar with that instead of going out and looking alphabetically or numerically for this file, because you needed to know the person's full name and maybe a service number. And at that time, a lot of people did not always know their service numbers.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Okay. Got it. Can you talk about your relationship with other federal agencies? Did changes with those agencies impact your work? I'm thinking maybe the VA or the Army.

[User] I didn't really have a lot. I worked mainly with CPR, the civilian side, because they were in the computer system, too. So you could touch base with them and see if they knew things. But mainly the records were sent from the thing and received from the departments. I had no real contact with those people that retired the records there.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] We just got them by shipments and worked them from there.

[Assistant] Okay. You were at the National Archives when it became independent of GSA in 1985, correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't really have a lot. I worked mainly with CPR, the civilian side, because they were in the computer system, too. So you could touch base with them and see if they knew things. But mainly the records were sent from the thing and received from the departments. I had no real contact with those people that retired the records there.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] We just got them by shipments and worked them from there.

[Assistant] Okay. You were at the National Archives when it became independent of GSA in 1985, correct?

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Did you notice any differences or any changes when that happened? Did that impact your work at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We just got them by shipments and worked them from there.

[Assistant] Okay. You were at the National Archives when it became independent of GSA in 1985, correct?

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Did you notice any differences or any changes when that happened? Did that impact your work at all?

[User] It didn't impact anything that I was doing other than that you knew all the supervisors and center director directly. And that was nice.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. Well, I think now would be a good time to start talking about the fire. Because you were there both before the fire and after the fire. You were involved in the immediate aftermath of that. Can you talk about what you recall about the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Did you notice any differences or any changes when that happened? Did that impact your work at all?

[User] It didn't impact anything that I was doing other than that you knew all the supervisors and center director directly. And that was nice.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. Well, I think now would be a good time to start talking about the fire. Because you were there both before the fire and after the fire. You were involved in the immediate aftermath of that. Can you talk about what you recall about the fire?

[User] The morning after the fire had been put out I received a call that my boss, he wanted me and another fella to come up to the center and that we would have permission to get on the lot, because it was all closed off. And I said, "Well, we can do that." So we went up there and then he told us what the plans were, that and to basically go home and get some work clothes on and come in, and we're going to go inside and make a survey of what the building looked like on the inside because some of them had been inside, but not a lot of people had been inside at that time. So we went and did all of that, and we got back and we went inside of the building. You saw the water in the hallways. It was water from the sixth floor, which had drained all the way down to the second floor and through the stairwells and the escalators. You kind of walked around this. On our second floor, there were correspondence units and files, and we just surveyed a little bit of that floor. Then later on, we got to go down and look at our areas to see if water damage or anything was bad or got the records.

[Assistant] And was it? Had the water damage been pretty bad during your survey?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, my section was on the first floor. It was down in the basement, sort of. And there was water on the floors in areas, but for the most part, no records were really damaged with water. But naturally, the musty smell was there. A little bit of water had to be cleaned up. But, fortunately, no records were damaged that was in that area.

[Assistant] Well, that's good. Can you describe what the building looked like when you arrived? You said that there was water all in the hallways, and obviously it did not smell very good.

[User] Yes. When we got there, there was a lot of broken glass on the sixth floor. There was a lot of glass at the National Archives on Page Avenue there, and a lot of the windows were broken because the firemen were trying to put out the fire and broken windows just from probably the heat of the building. It just looked like, “Wow, there's a lot more damage in there than you really know.” You couldn't see anything and the smell outside was still there.

[Assistant] I'm sure. Did you mention that your boss had called you to tell you basically to come in with work clothes? Was it you and one other employee? Or how many were there?

[User] Well, that morning he just called me and a fellow named Felix. Felix worked in the A and D section. He basically was organizational records. He helped access and dispose of our organizational records, such as hospital records.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. And it's Felix, correct? You said Felix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When we got there, there was a lot of broken glass on the sixth floor. There was a lot of glass at the National Archives on Page Avenue there, and a lot of the windows were broken because the firemen were trying to put out the fire and broken windows just from probably the heat of the building. It just looked like, “Wow, there's a lot more damage in there than you really know.” You couldn't see anything and the smell outside was still there.

[Assistant] I'm sure. Did you mention that your boss had called you to tell you basically to come in with work clothes? Was it you and one other employee? Or how many were there?

[User] Well, that morning he just called me and a fellow named Felix. Felix worked in the A and D section. He basically was organizational records. He helped access and dispose of our organizational records, such as hospital records.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. And it's Felix, correct? You said Felix?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did your boss have you and Felix doing that day in the immediate response to the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that morning he just called me and a fellow named Felix. Felix worked in the A and D section. He basically was organizational records. He helped access and dispose of our organizational records, such as hospital records.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. And it's Felix, correct? You said Felix?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did your boss have you and Felix doing that day in the immediate response to the fire?

[User] We were just looking for the water damage in some of the areas. Felix, he came to the center when it was originally put in the St. Louis area there. I'm not exactly sure of the exact year that they got there, but he came there and he knew all the organizational records pretty good.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. Are there any other anecdotes about the impact of the fire in the National Archives that you can recall? How it impacted the operations of the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did your boss have you and Felix doing that day in the immediate response to the fire?

[User] We were just looking for the water damage in some of the areas. Felix, he came to the center when it was originally put in the St. Louis area there. I'm not exactly sure of the exact year that they got there, but he came there and he knew all the organizational records pretty good.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. Are there any other anecdotes about the impact of the fire in the National Archives that you can recall? How it impacted the operations of the National Archives?

[User] At the beginning of it, it made it hard to respond to some of these people that wrote in to the center, because first of all, you had to find out if you had a record, number one. Number two, the files weren't complete, so it took you a long time to process all the burnt records and get all the burned files together. A lot of times you didn't have anything to go on to help verify their service or create things. So you weren't really able to help at times.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was a frustrating experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were just looking for the water damage in some of the areas. Felix, he came to the center when it was originally put in the St. Louis area there. I'm not exactly sure of the exact year that they got there, but he came there and he knew all the organizational records pretty good.

[Assistant] I see. Okay. Are there any other anecdotes about the impact of the fire in the National Archives that you can recall? How it impacted the operations of the National Archives?

[User] At the beginning of it, it made it hard to respond to some of these people that wrote in to the center, because first of all, you had to find out if you had a record, number one. Number two, the files weren't complete, so it took you a long time to process all the burnt records and get all the burned files together. A lot of times you didn't have anything to go on to help verify their service or create things. So you weren't really able to help at times.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was a frustrating experience.

[User] I think it was awful, that, because, at that time, a lot of the records in that burned area, they needed service numbers and different things, and a lot of people didn't know their service numbers. You had to get the right information to know whether you had a record or not, names and what have you. That wasn't always easy to get.

[Assistant] I know that immediately after the fire, I think there was a really big tent operation essentially set up in the parking lot of the building. Can you talk about what that was like? What was your involvement in that? At the time, you were the supervisor of the accessions records unit, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the beginning of it, it made it hard to respond to some of these people that wrote in to the center, because first of all, you had to find out if you had a record, number one. Number two, the files weren't complete, so it took you a long time to process all the burnt records and get all the burned files together. A lot of times you didn't have anything to go on to help verify their service or create things. So you weren't really able to help at times.

[Assistant] I'm sure that was a frustrating experience.

[User] I think it was awful, that, because, at that time, a lot of the records in that burned area, they needed service numbers and different things, and a lot of people didn't know their service numbers. You had to get the right information to know whether you had a record or not, names and what have you. That wasn't always easy to get.

[Assistant] I know that immediately after the fire, I think there was a really big tent operation essentially set up in the parking lot of the building. Can you talk about what that was like? What was your involvement in that? At the time, you were the supervisor of the accessions records unit, right?

[User] Right. I didn't have a lot to do with what we called "Tent City" out there. They had tents out there where they helped shade them. Basically, they got the boxes from the records from the burn area, and they would go through them, and the records that had enough material to make it a record or any documents that made a record, they put it in a box to say, "This is this is a record. We're going to accession this in." Over time, they would accumulate so many boxes of this stuff. How many boxes, I don't know. But, then they loaded them on a truck and they took them out to McDonnell Douglas or Boeing. They put them in their freeze-dried area, which helped get the moisture out of the files and made them easier to handle in Accessions because the more you handle them, sometimes the burn edges would get off.

[Assistant] They would crumble a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I didn't have a lot to do with what we called "Tent City" out there. They had tents out there where they helped shade them. Basically, they got the boxes from the records from the burn area, and they would go through them, and the records that had enough material to make it a record or any documents that made a record, they put it in a box to say, "This is this is a record. We're going to accession this in." Over time, they would accumulate so many boxes of this stuff. How many boxes, I don't know. But, then they loaded them on a truck and they took them out to McDonnell Douglas or Boeing. They put them in their freeze-dried area, which helped get the moisture out of the files and made them easier to handle in Accessions because the more you handle them, sometimes the burn edges would get off.

[Assistant] They would crumble a little bit.

[User] Yes, right. It was kind of dirty, but then when they would come back and they were records, then they would come down to our area and then we would keypunch them in from that standpoint. Then we loaded them into the burnt file, that's what we called it, the burnt file. You keypunched whatever they sent, whatever we could keypunch in, we did. Sometimes it was a record, so we keypunched it in. We didn't know exactly what was there.

[Assistant] Right. I mean, what was it like handling those burned files? Were they still extremely fragile when you were keypunching them in and accessioning them in?

[User] Yes. Every time, because you handled them, you had to turn them to do that and the burn edges were off. Most of the time, the keypunch operators, and other people also, they wore smocks or plastic smocks they could put on so the burnt ends wouldn't get on them and be as clean as possible to make sure that, if there was anything bad on it health-wise, that they were okay.

[Assistant] Right. Was there any concern about the health of the workers in your unit who were handling these?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right. It was kind of dirty, but then when they would come back and they were records, then they would come down to our area and then we would keypunch them in from that standpoint. Then we loaded them into the burnt file, that's what we called it, the burnt file. You keypunched whatever they sent, whatever we could keypunch in, we did. Sometimes it was a record, so we keypunched it in. We didn't know exactly what was there.

[Assistant] Right. I mean, what was it like handling those burned files? Were they still extremely fragile when you were keypunching them in and accessioning them in?

[User] Yes. Every time, because you handled them, you had to turn them to do that and the burn edges were off. Most of the time, the keypunch operators, and other people also, they wore smocks or plastic smocks they could put on so the burnt ends wouldn't get on them and be as clean as possible to make sure that, if there was anything bad on it health-wise, that they were okay.

[Assistant] Right. Was there any concern about the health of the workers in your unit who were handling these?

[User] No, not really. It was just that you handled all of this burnt stuff on your hands. It's more stuff you haven't done in your life, maybe.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of unpleasant to handle those types of things. Do you think that the fire impacted your work in the long term beyond just the immediate aftermath?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Every time, because you handled them, you had to turn them to do that and the burn edges were off. Most of the time, the keypunch operators, and other people also, they wore smocks or plastic smocks they could put on so the burnt ends wouldn't get on them and be as clean as possible to make sure that, if there was anything bad on it health-wise, that they were okay.

[Assistant] Right. Was there any concern about the health of the workers in your unit who were handling these?

[User] No, not really. It was just that you handled all of this burnt stuff on your hands. It's more stuff you haven't done in your life, maybe.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of unpleasant to handle those types of things. Do you think that the fire impacted your work in the long term beyond just the immediate aftermath?

[User] I don't think it affected my thing. The center getting them accessioned in was an asset, I know. I do think that.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get all the burned files all accessioned in again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. It was just that you handled all of this burnt stuff on your hands. It's more stuff you haven't done in your life, maybe.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of unpleasant to handle those types of things. Do you think that the fire impacted your work in the long term beyond just the immediate aftermath?

[User] I don't think it affected my thing. The center getting them accessioned in was an asset, I know. I do think that.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get all the burned files all accessioned in again?

[User] Oh, gosh, they were accessioning burned files for oh, months that it took them. But also they had some records that were sent from other places for the burned files to help. And we got those from other places.

[Assistant] I'm sure it was a really big task. It wasn't done in just a couple of days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think it affected my thing. The center getting them accessioned in was an asset, I know. I do think that.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get all the burned files all accessioned in again?

[User] Oh, gosh, they were accessioning burned files for oh, months that it took them. But also they had some records that were sent from other places for the burned files to help. And we got those from other places.

[Assistant] I'm sure it was a really big task. It wasn't done in just a couple of days.

[User] No, it wasn't. I don't know the time frame of some of that because it is probably continuing on in different ways now, even.

[Assistant] Do you think that there were any reorganization efforts that were done after the fire? Did you see any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh, they were accessioning burned files for oh, months that it took them. But also they had some records that were sent from other places for the burned files to help. And we got those from other places.

[Assistant] I'm sure it was a really big task. It wasn't done in just a couple of days.

[User] No, it wasn't. I don't know the time frame of some of that because it is probably continuing on in different ways now, even.

[Assistant] Do you think that there were any reorganization efforts that were done after the fire? Did you see any of that?

[User] I didn't see any of that, but I know that towards the end of my career that a lot of the services were going to microfilms and the records and computer things. So that makes a little difference.

[Assistant] Right. Just out of curiosity, were you working in the Records Reconstruction Branch after the fire at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't. I don't know the time frame of some of that because it is probably continuing on in different ways now, even.

[Assistant] Do you think that there were any reorganization efforts that were done after the fire? Did you see any of that?

[User] I didn't see any of that, but I know that towards the end of my career that a lot of the services were going to microfilms and the records and computer things. So that makes a little difference.

[Assistant] Right. Just out of curiosity, were you working in the Records Reconstruction Branch after the fire at all?

[User] No, I didn't work in the Reconstruction Branch.

[Assistant] Okay, great. Well, you must have been there when the records moved from the 9700 page location to Spanish Lake?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't see any of that, but I know that towards the end of my career that a lot of the services were going to microfilms and the records and computer things. So that makes a little difference.

[Assistant] Right. Just out of curiosity, were you working in the Records Reconstruction Branch after the fire at all?

[User] No, I didn't work in the Reconstruction Branch.

[Assistant] Okay, great. Well, you must have been there when the records moved from the 9700 page location to Spanish Lake?

[User] No, I was not. I was retired.

[Assistant] That's right because that was later. But I'm sure you probably heard about the move that they made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't work in the Reconstruction Branch.

[Assistant] Okay, great. Well, you must have been there when the records moved from the 9700 page location to Spanish Lake?

[User] No, I was not. I was retired.

[Assistant] That's right because that was later. But I'm sure you probably heard about the move that they made.

[User] Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you feel that that was a good move to move everything to the new location? Because you were familiar with the 9700 Page location.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not. I was retired.

[Assistant] That's right because that was later. But I'm sure you probably heard about the move that they made.

[User] Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you feel that that was a good move to move everything to the new location? Because you were familiar with the 9700 Page location.

[User] Yes, I think it was probably good and probably good for the records. Give it a fresh start and all the new things that are coming along and all the computer ages that have come along with the records. I think it was probably a good thing.

[Assistant] Were there any procedures or policies that were put in place after the fire that were done because of the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you feel that that was a good move to move everything to the new location? Because you were familiar with the 9700 Page location.

[User] Yes, I think it was probably good and probably good for the records. Give it a fresh start and all the new things that are coming along and all the computer ages that have come along with the records. I think it was probably a good thing.

[Assistant] Were there any procedures or policies that were put in place after the fire that were done because of the fire?

[User] Not that I am aware of. The part that I was in, it was just changes, the normal changes, the fire didn't have anything to do with them. They were just normal things. Maybe to help make better copies. Just work related, not policy.

[Assistant] Got it. Okay. Were you familiar with the decision to make the official military personnel files permanent? Because that happened after the fire, I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it was probably good and probably good for the records. Give it a fresh start and all the new things that are coming along and all the computer ages that have come along with the records. I think it was probably a good thing.

[Assistant] Were there any procedures or policies that were put in place after the fire that were done because of the fire?

[User] Not that I am aware of. The part that I was in, it was just changes, the normal changes, the fire didn't have anything to do with them. They were just normal things. Maybe to help make better copies. Just work related, not policy.

[Assistant] Got it. Okay. Were you familiar with the decision to make the official military personnel files permanent? Because that happened after the fire, I think.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Right. Were you involved in that decision? Do you think there were any benefits to that or did that bring up any new challenges for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that I am aware of. The part that I was in, it was just changes, the normal changes, the fire didn't have anything to do with them. They were just normal things. Maybe to help make better copies. Just work related, not policy.

[Assistant] Got it. Okay. Were you familiar with the decision to make the official military personnel files permanent? Because that happened after the fire, I think.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Right. Were you involved in that decision? Do you think there were any benefits to that or did that bring up any new challenges for you?

[User] I wasn't involved in any of the decisions like that and it really didn't affect me at all.

[Assistant] Okay. Just, more generally, zooming out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about the culture at NPRC, at the agency, and the work culture and specifically within your unit, the Accession unit, during the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Right. Were you involved in that decision? Do you think there were any benefits to that or did that bring up any new challenges for you?

[User] I wasn't involved in any of the decisions like that and it really didn't affect me at all.

[Assistant] Okay. Just, more generally, zooming out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about the culture at NPRC, at the agency, and the work culture and specifically within your unit, the Accession unit, during the fire?

[User] I'm not sure what you're asking there, but we had data keypunch operators that punched stuff into the things, and they did their job. Then you had to take the punch cards and turn them in and get the labels for them. And then we had a group of people that we would assign to label up whatever records needed to be labeled up. They worked in teams, because sometimes you would have maybe 20 or 30 boxes of records that needed to be labeled. So they would get that done. Then the boys would know that they were ready to go to file, and then they had to make room for the next group of records that were coming on these conveyor belts.

[Assistant] Got it. Can you talk briefly about what do you think the impact was of the fire at the National Archives? Was there a larger impact that you felt there was on the agency in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't involved in any of the decisions like that and it really didn't affect me at all.

[Assistant] Okay. Just, more generally, zooming out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about the culture at NPRC, at the agency, and the work culture and specifically within your unit, the Accession unit, during the fire?

[User] I'm not sure what you're asking there, but we had data keypunch operators that punched stuff into the things, and they did their job. Then you had to take the punch cards and turn them in and get the labels for them. And then we had a group of people that we would assign to label up whatever records needed to be labeled up. They worked in teams, because sometimes you would have maybe 20 or 30 boxes of records that needed to be labeled. So they would get that done. Then the boys would know that they were ready to go to file, and then they had to make room for the next group of records that were coming on these conveyor belts.

[Assistant] Got it. Can you talk briefly about what do you think the impact was of the fire at the National Archives? Was there a larger impact that you felt there was on the agency in general?

[User] I'm not sure about that. I'm sure that it had an impact on the center because I can remember when I first started there that one of the things that some people said was that in the place on Page that there was no fire system in the building. I would think that the new place has the updated codes for whatever that is. I don't know why or why not they didn't have one at that time. But I did hear that conversation in the early days, and I never thought it was good, bad, indifferent because it was just conversation.

[Assistant] Right. What do you remember from what you first thought when you heard that there was a fire at the agency and that essentially your boss was calling you in to help survey the damage?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When you heard that, I thought, "Well, they'll probably have that put out before you know it." Then as time went along and they were still working on it, I'm thinking, "Wow, this is..." And then as the news got out—I was getting my information from the news, mostly because it was still an active fire up there and still putting water on it—I'm thinking, "Oh, this is bigger than anyone thought." Then you're thinking, "Okay, what impact is that going to have on jobs? When can you get in?" Then when I did get the call and I walked there and I thought, "Whoa, whoa," because there was no really electric. There were no escalators, there was nothing. I'm thinking "By the time they check all of this out and make it work-worthy that, wow, this is not going to be overnight!"

[Assistant] Right. I think you had mentioned in a previous conversation that you guys had squeegees and you were trying to just remove as much water as possible that first day.

[User] Yes, that first day! First day, they had some squeegees about four feet, three, four feet wide. And several of us, we would push water down the hallway and out the front door and down the stairwells. Then down on the next floor they were doing the same thing. There was just a lot of water draining from all of the above. Standing there, you really realize that this was not going to be easy nor fun.

[Assistant] Right. Yes, certainly not fun.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I think you had mentioned, too, that you showed up and started squeegeeing and there weren't necessarily hardhats on the job either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that first day! First day, they had some squeegees about four feet, three, four feet wide. And several of us, we would push water down the hallway and out the front door and down the stairwells. Then down on the next floor they were doing the same thing. There was just a lot of water draining from all of the above. Standing there, you really realize that this was not going to be easy nor fun.

[Assistant] Right. Yes, certainly not fun.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I think you had mentioned, too, that you showed up and started squeegeeing and there weren't necessarily hardhats on the job either.

[User] No, no, at that time there wasn't. But when we went in, when we got back, they gave us boots to walk around in the building with, with the water. But on the first day, we didn't have hardhats. But then it was required that you have a hardhat after that.

[Assistant] I'm sure that walking around was probably pretty gross with all the burnt stuff. And I think you said there was broken glass as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I think you had mentioned, too, that you showed up and started squeegeeing and there weren't necessarily hardhats on the job either.

[User] No, no, at that time there wasn't. But when we went in, when we got back, they gave us boots to walk around in the building with, with the water. But on the first day, we didn't have hardhats. But then it was required that you have a hardhat after that.

[Assistant] I'm sure that walking around was probably pretty gross with all the burnt stuff. And I think you said there was broken glass as well.

[User] Yes, it was from the windows that were broken up above. If you were standing on the outside, every once in a while a piece of glass would fall out that you had worked loose and come down on the ground and you're thinking, "Wow, okay, don't stand too close to that." You could get hit by a piece of glass from above not even thinking of that.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of miraculous then that you weren't injured at all during this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, at that time there wasn't. But when we went in, when we got back, they gave us boots to walk around in the building with, with the water. But on the first day, we didn't have hardhats. But then it was required that you have a hardhat after that.

[Assistant] I'm sure that walking around was probably pretty gross with all the burnt stuff. And I think you said there was broken glass as well.

[User] Yes, it was from the windows that were broken up above. If you were standing on the outside, every once in a while a piece of glass would fall out that you had worked loose and come down on the ground and you're thinking, "Wow, okay, don't stand too close to that." You could get hit by a piece of glass from above not even thinking of that.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of miraculous then that you weren't injured at all during this.

[User] Oh, no. I mean we were pretty cautious about it. It's just that you're just standing there, and all of the things going through your head just thinking, "Wow, they have to fix all the glass and get this all back." I mean, all the pieces that you think about, seeing this building that you work in has to be put back together so you can come back to work.

[Assistant] Sure. I'm sure it was pretty astounding to see the level of damage that there was to the building itself. I'm sure it's very odd to see a building that you work in have so much fire damage to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was from the windows that were broken up above. If you were standing on the outside, every once in a while a piece of glass would fall out that you had worked loose and come down on the ground and you're thinking, "Wow, okay, don't stand too close to that." You could get hit by a piece of glass from above not even thinking of that.

[Assistant] Right. It's kind of miraculous then that you weren't injured at all during this.

[User] Oh, no. I mean we were pretty cautious about it. It's just that you're just standing there, and all of the things going through your head just thinking, "Wow, they have to fix all the glass and get this all back." I mean, all the pieces that you think about, seeing this building that you work in has to be put back together so you can come back to work.

[Assistant] Sure. I'm sure it was pretty astounding to see the level of damage that there was to the building itself. I'm sure it's very odd to see a building that you work in have so much fire damage to it.

[User] Yes. And I did not go up to the sixth floor where the fire was. They were very cautious about that because I don't know if they didn't know if there was any structural damage from the heat or how safe it was. But they had a group of fellows that worked up there that actually helped process the records out of there. That was a good team of workers up there. I don't know all of them that worked up there, but I'm sure they had some exciting days with how to get this off of the shelf.

[Assistant] I'm sure they definitely did. Well, just to close out the interview, do you mind talking about how you view your time at the National Archives, whether it's related to the fire. It sounds like you were pretty integral to being there in the immediate aftermath of the fire. But how do you view your time at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I did not go up to the sixth floor where the fire was. They were very cautious about that because I don't know if they didn't know if there was any structural damage from the heat or how safe it was. But they had a group of fellows that worked up there that actually helped process the records out of there. That was a good team of workers up there. I don't know all of them that worked up there, but I'm sure they had some exciting days with how to get this off of the shelf.

[Assistant] I'm sure they definitely did. Well, just to close out the interview, do you mind talking about how you view your time at the National Archives, whether it's related to the fire. It sounds like you were pretty integral to being there in the immediate aftermath of the fire. But how do you view your time at the National Archives?

[User] Oh, I thought it was a great career! I really enjoyed that, working from the files to accessing records. I learned an awful lot and I really, really appreciate all the veterans that served no matter when they served. I have an extra thing about all the things they did. And they absolutely were in the war and they did things, they were in the service. Every once in a while, I get choked up when it's a certain thing and they play the national anthem. It means a lot more.

[Assistant] I'm sure it must be pretty breathtaking too. I mean, you witnessed firsthand taking care of their records, in a way, helping and taking care of veterans themselves.

[User] Yes. From my standpoint personally, everybody at the center did an awesome job of trying to help veterans and help get things that they could help, maybe get their VA benefits and things that they were looking for and provide service to them. They were just a good group of people to work with.

[Assistant] It sounds like you had a pretty long and dedicated career with the National Archives in St. Louis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I thought it was a great career! I really enjoyed that, working from the files to accessing records. I learned an awful lot and I really, really appreciate all the veterans that served no matter when they served. I have an extra thing about all the things they did. And they absolutely were in the war and they did things, they were in the service. Every once in a while, I get choked up when it's a certain thing and they play the national anthem. It means a lot more.

[Assistant] I'm sure it must be pretty breathtaking too. I mean, you witnessed firsthand taking care of their records, in a way, helping and taking care of veterans themselves.

[User] Yes. From my standpoint personally, everybody at the center did an awesome job of trying to help veterans and help get things that they could help, maybe get their VA benefits and things that they were looking for and provide service to them. They were just a good group of people to work with.

[Assistant] It sounds like you had a pretty long and dedicated career with the National Archives in St. Louis.

[User] I did. Like I say, I enjoyed every day that I went in, and I never really didn't like to go in.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to add to the interview? Anything else that I missed asking about? Anything about the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. From my standpoint personally, everybody at the center did an awesome job of trying to help veterans and help get things that they could help, maybe get their VA benefits and things that they were looking for and provide service to them. They were just a good group of people to work with.

[Assistant] It sounds like you had a pretty long and dedicated career with the National Archives in St. Louis.

[User] I did. Like I say, I enjoyed every day that I went in, and I never really didn't like to go in.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to add to the interview? Anything else that I missed asking about? Anything about the fire?

[User] Not really. I just hope I kind of gave an overshot of the fire. Some of the stuff that I said is from my memory and what I went through, and I hope that people could understand that.

[Assistant] I think you did a wonderful job. I think everything that you said is extremely helpful and really interesting as well. So I'm really glad you were able to do the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Like I say, I enjoyed every day that I went in, and I never really didn't like to go in.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to add to the interview? Anything else that I missed asking about? Anything about the fire?

[User] Not really. I just hope I kind of gave an overshot of the fire. Some of the stuff that I said is from my memory and what I went through, and I hope that people could understand that.

[Assistant] I think you did a wonderful job. I think everything that you said is extremely helpful and really interesting as well. So I'm really glad you were able to do the interview.

[User] There's one thing that might be interesting that I just happened to think about. A lot of the states that had records on file for various reasons—a lot of states had DD 214s of people that served in the service—a lot of them had copies, and they sent them to the center so that we could create a record for a lot of veterans. And I'm sure that helped create some of the burned files. But it also put the documents in a place where they're made available for many people and for years to come.

[Assistant] Got it! Well, thank you so much for doing the interview. If there's nothing more that you'd like to add, I think we can close out the interview. So, thank you very, very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I just hope I kind of gave an overshot of the fire. Some of the stuff that I said is from my memory and what I went through, and I hope that people could understand that.

[Assistant] I think you did a wonderful job. I think everything that you said is extremely helpful and really interesting as well. So I'm really glad you were able to do the interview.

[User] There's one thing that might be interesting that I just happened to think about. A lot of the states that had records on file for various reasons—a lot of states had DD 214s of people that served in the service—a lot of them had copies, and they sent them to the center so that we could create a record for a lot of veterans. And I'm sure that helped create some of the burned files. But it also put the documents in a place where they're made available for many people and for years to come.

[Assistant] Got it! Well, thank you so much for doing the interview. If there's nothing more that you'd like to add, I think we can close out the interview. So, thank you very, very much.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] All right, well, Mickey, have a great rest of your day and thanks again. And I will be in touch through email with Mary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's one thing that might be interesting that I just happened to think about. A lot of the states that had records on file for various reasons—a lot of states had DD 214s of people that served in the service—a lot of them had copies, and they sent them to the center so that we could create a record for a lot of veterans. And I'm sure that helped create some of the burned files. But it also put the documents in a place where they're made available for many people and for years to come.

[Assistant] Got it! Well, thank you so much for doing the interview. If there's nothing more that you'd like to add, I think we can close out the interview. So, thank you very, very much.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] All right, well, Mickey, have a great rest of your day and thanks again. And I will be in touch through email with Mary.

[User] Okay. You do that and I'll try to respond.

[Assistant] Alright. Thank you so much. Have a great day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I asked Caldwell, “Okay, how many people am I authorized?” He said, “How the hell should I know? That’s up to you.” A lot of my fellow branch heads, as I put it, went out to the Gulf Freeway [Interstate 45] and stopped cars. It wasn’t quite that bad. I was very selective in picking only the people that I thought would really make a contribution. That turned out to be a bad career move, because these other guys made division chief and I never did. They would hire 30 or 40 people, and I hired six or eight. I didn’t want to get people that were more of a drag than a contributor.

[Assistant] Did you go out and recruit, or did you have people seeking employment and you were able to pick from that pool?

[User] It was a combination of those things. I called on friends. One of the people I brought in was Don [L.] Teegarden that you may have spoken with. He still lives in El Lago [Texas]. Don and I had worked together at Edwards and gotten along very well. He was working on the X-15 [airplane] program at Edwards as a propulsion engineer. The propulsion engineer at Edwards had total complete control of what was done to those engines, and they had only a tech rep [technical representative] from the contractor. They did all the work in house; so he got some really wonderful rocket engine experience. So I called up my friend Don. I said, “Don, come join me, I need you.” He came in as my deputy, which was a great blessing to me. So you might want to talk with Don sometime. He’s still there. That was an exciting 18-month or so interval.

[Assistant] Guess that experience in Korea working those 16-, 18-hour days paid off for here.

[User] Well, I repeated that. I was still young enough to be able to do that then. I don’t do that anymore.

[Assistant] Were any one of those subsystems more challenging for you than the others to get up and running in that small timeframe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had at most three people.

[Assistant] Did you have authority to make changes at Bethpage as the NASA representative? Or did you have to go back and have someone tell Grumman?

[User] If it was procedural changes and that sort of thing, I had the authority. If it was hardware changes, it had to go to the Configuration Change Board. I attended those, but the sponsor of the change was the guy that made the presentation to primarily George [M.] Low, the program manager. I’d sit close by and be there to object if something came up that I thought was going to hinder our schedule or reliability or whatever. I was in an advisory role for that rather than a deputy role.

[Assistant] Did you exchange information with the other vehicle managers and share information between you all?

[User] We shared information and tried to stay close together. One of the things I was proudest of on Lunar Module 5 was I made it my practice, when I was up at Bethpage checking everything out preparatory to shipping to the Cape, to make a daily telecon to the Mission Control [Center] guy that was in charge of the Lunar Module and brief him on what was taking place and the anomalies we’d had and what we’d done to resolve them. He was so appreciative of it that he made me a member of the Mission Control team and gave me one of their cups, which I have somewhere in a box. Apparently I was the first guy that had troubled himself to call them up and tell them what was going on, but I just thought that was part of the task that I had before me, and it didn’t occur to me not to do so.

[Assistant] It certainly seems like that would help the Mission Control team to understand if you were sharing information on a daily basis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We shared information and tried to stay close together. One of the things I was proudest of on Lunar Module 5 was I made it my practice, when I was up at Bethpage checking everything out preparatory to shipping to the Cape, to make a daily telecon to the Mission Control [Center] guy that was in charge of the Lunar Module and brief him on what was taking place and the anomalies we’d had and what we’d done to resolve them. He was so appreciative of it that he made me a member of the Mission Control team and gave me one of their cups, which I have somewhere in a box. Apparently I was the first guy that had troubled himself to call them up and tell them what was going on, but I just thought that was part of the task that I had before me, and it didn’t occur to me not to do so.

[Assistant] It certainly seems like that would help the Mission Control team to understand if you were sharing information on a daily basis.

[User] Yes. They needed to know these things, because they were apt to experience the same problems that we had in flight. If it occurred once, it was apt to happen again, so they needed to know what happened and what was done to correct it. I let them know those things because I thought that was part of what I was assigned to do. Never occurred to me to do otherwise, but apparently that was unique.

[Assistant] I understand one of your LTAs was the Eagle [Apollo 11 Lunar Module (LM)] that landed on the Moon. Can you share with us what that was like knowing that your assignment actually went to the Moon?

[User] It was scary, that’s what it was. There was a million things that could have gone wrong and didn’t. It’s been my contention for all these years that the good Lord was with us or it would not have happened. That may sound hokey to you, but I mean it quite sincerely that there was some power greater than those group of humans behind that succeeding.

[Assistant] I think at this recent 40th anniversary celebration, lots of people talked about so many things that went right that could have gone wrong.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They needed to know these things, because they were apt to experience the same problems that we had in flight. If it occurred once, it was apt to happen again, so they needed to know what happened and what was done to correct it. I let them know those things because I thought that was part of what I was assigned to do. Never occurred to me to do otherwise, but apparently that was unique.

[Assistant] I understand one of your LTAs was the Eagle [Apollo 11 Lunar Module (LM)] that landed on the Moon. Can you share with us what that was like knowing that your assignment actually went to the Moon?

[User] It was scary, that’s what it was. There was a million things that could have gone wrong and didn’t. It’s been my contention for all these years that the good Lord was with us or it would not have happened. That may sound hokey to you, but I mean it quite sincerely that there was some power greater than those group of humans behind that succeeding.

[Assistant] I think at this recent 40th anniversary celebration, lots of people talked about so many things that went right that could have gone wrong.

[User] That’s right, yes. So it wasn’t just skill and integrity and hard work. It was something beyond that that worked for us.

[Assistant] Do you have any insight you can share with us on how many people that had your skills and integrity? The group of engineers and the group of managers that were there worked so well together and brought this technological feat to success. But yet, as you mentioned already, so many of you had strong opinions on how things should be done. How was it able that you all came together at the end and supported each other’s decisions to create the success?