[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, I would, it was too hot to be inside. So it was, I was always sitting outside talking to somebody. Sometimes the, you know, the, the. I mean, I was, I was somewhere in between because I was young enough to be youth, but I think most of them treated me more like an adult, even though I was in age wise, was definitely in their youth cohort that wouldn't have been given a voice in a meeting or anything like that. Um.

[Assistant] But you were a teacher.

[User] I was a teacher. And so that, so I was kind of in the middle. Sometimes I would hang out with the boys, um, but not too much. It was mostly talking to more of the older, the younger parents. Um, another big problem there is the culture doesn't mix well with Western culture. And so alcoholism and suicide are really big problems in Micronesia, particularly for the men. Um, and so there were, there were large.

[Assistant] Because of lack of job opportunities or why is that?

[User] No way for the young men to prove themselves or gain esteem in their clan or their family. Um, there wasn't even enough land to farm, and fishing was kind of fished out. And so if you were lucky enough to get a job, that would work. But there were almost, you know, so few jobs. And if you didn't speak English and, you know, weren't really smart and connected, it was pretty difficult to find work. Um, and so they were rather, it was a difficult spot for young men in their culture to find a landing, a way to become an established part of their clan.

[Assistant] And this is a U.S. territory basically. Is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a teacher. And so that, so I was kind of in the middle. Sometimes I would hang out with the boys, um, but not too much. It was mostly talking to more of the older, the younger parents. Um, another big problem there is the culture doesn't mix well with Western culture. And so alcoholism and suicide are really big problems in Micronesia, particularly for the men. Um, and so there were, there were large.

[Assistant] Because of lack of job opportunities or why is that?

[User] No way for the young men to prove themselves or gain esteem in their clan or their family. Um, there wasn't even enough land to farm, and fishing was kind of fished out. And so if you were lucky enough to get a job, that would work. But there were almost, you know, so few jobs. And if you didn't speak English and, you know, weren't really smart and connected, it was pretty difficult to find work. Um, and so they were rather, it was a difficult spot for young men in their culture to find a landing, a way to become an established part of their clan.

[Assistant] And this is a U.S. territory basically. Is it?

[User] It was then.

[Assistant] It was, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was then.

[Assistant] It was, yeah.

[User] It was then. Now it's an independent country. In fact, while I was there, they became an independent country. But it's still very closely aligned with the U.S. We have a, it's called a, um, there's a special treaty, which is part of the reason why Micronesians can travel to the U.S. without visas. Um, the U.S. retains basing rights where we ever needed to put military soldiers there. Um, it is, the Chuuk lagoon, Chuuk lagoon, which some people know as Truk, was the largest Japanese naval base outside of Japan during World War II, um, in the state I was in. And so in the, towards the end of World War II, the U.S. blockaded it and bombed it and sank 60 ships in the lagoon. So it's a Japanese Pearl Harbor.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So even today, they, you know, they stick out of the water and you can scuba dive on them. And there's World War II wreckage, including all these gigantic ships sunk in the harbor there. Um, and it's fantastic scuba diving. Um, but, uh, so it had some strategic value in the Pacific. I'm not sure that's still the case today, but, um, certainly at the end of World War II, when the U.S. took it over, it had great strategic value. Um, and they have, because it was, they were, the U.S. blockaded it. So there was no food for the 50,000 Japanese soldiers that were there. So it was the Japanese soldiers were beginning to starve. They were very, very abusive to the Chuukese. Um, killed them and ate them, really horrible stories. So when the Americans came, they were very highly regarded and to this day are still very highly regarded to be an American. You know, they have very high regard for the U.S., which is a, a gift when you're a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Were there other Americans besides Peace Corps volunteers that you interacted with or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So even today, they, you know, they stick out of the water and you can scuba dive on them. And there's World War II wreckage, including all these gigantic ships sunk in the harbor there. Um, and it's fantastic scuba diving. Um, but, uh, so it had some strategic value in the Pacific. I'm not sure that's still the case today, but, um, certainly at the end of World War II, when the U.S. took it over, it had great strategic value. Um, and they have, because it was, they were, the U.S. blockaded it. So there was no food for the 50,000 Japanese soldiers that were there. So it was the Japanese soldiers were beginning to starve. They were very, very abusive to the Chuukese. Um, killed them and ate them, really horrible stories. So when the Americans came, they were very highly regarded and to this day are still very highly regarded to be an American. You know, they have very high regard for the U.S., which is a, a gift when you're a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Were there other Americans besides Peace Corps volunteers that you interacted with or?

[User] There were two Jesuit priests and three other Americans. One was a volunteer who stayed. Another was a former volunteer who had come back to work with the state Department of Education. And one was the attorney general, because they couldn't have, they couldn't have their own attorney general. They had to have an external attorney general, it was a lawyer who came back. So that, five non volunteer Americans in the state. Um, you get to know them pretty quickly.

[Assistant] Well, they were in the state. So you were in the.

[User] They were in the state capital. I was on an island outside the state capital, but. Um.

[Assistant] And you never went by boat to other places?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were two Jesuit priests and three other Americans. One was a volunteer who stayed. Another was a former volunteer who had come back to work with the state Department of Education. And one was the attorney general, because they couldn't have, they couldn't have their own attorney general. They had to have an external attorney general, it was a lawyer who came back. So that, five non volunteer Americans in the state. Um, you get to know them pretty quickly.

[Assistant] Well, they were in the state. So you were in the.

[User] They were in the state capital. I was on an island outside the state capital, but. Um.

[Assistant] And you never went by boat to other places?

[User] Occasionally. I mean, obviously we'd go to the capital to get our mail, and there was a Peace Corps office in the state capital for our mail and support. Um, then you see other volunteers there.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps come out to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were in the state capital. I was on an island outside the state capital, but. Um.

[Assistant] And you never went by boat to other places?

[User] Occasionally. I mean, obviously we'd go to the capital to get our mail, and there was a Peace Corps office in the state capital for our mail and support. Um, then you see other volunteers there.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps come out to you?

[User] Uh, I had one official visit. Actually the country director visited my village and the, and the nurse for the whole country. The actual Peace Corps office was in Pohnpei, which was the national capital, um, which was two hour flight away. So, um. Uh, so that was the only visit. But we, we'd sometimes arrange visits. So, you know, several of the other volunteers came to my island for a day once, and we had a big dinner and walked around the island and stuff. Um, and I went to a few other people's islands on occasion. One island was very near mine, and, um, I could bum a canoe if I really wanted to and canoe over there. Um, it was like literally about 1,000 yards, but, um, but you couldn't swim it. It was too, the current was pretty rough there. So you, but you could canoe it or boat over it. And I went over there once, once or twice. She was a year ahead of me, so she was only there for the first year I was there, uh, a volunteer on that island.

[Assistant] And then when you all met in Guam, what, what was the. Was everybody's experience similar to yours, or were there different kinds of experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they'd seen a broken paddle, but, um. And so they all sat and learned how to carve paddles with, well, he was carving mine and actually had two. I had one for a friend carved at the same time. Um, they all learned and carved their own paddles.

[Assistant] Oh, neat.

[User] Because the young men in their 20s were the ones that ran the boats that did run. And so having a Chuukese, in fact, it was an island specific paddle, uh, became a source of pride. And so they all learned to carve their own paddles, which I thought was very cool.

[Assistant] It is, yeah. So what did Peace Corps, how did it influence you?

[User] Uh, it set the course of my life pretty much. Uh, I became, uh, so I studied public health when I came back, went and got a master's degree in public health, and became a diplomat with USAID doing foreign assistance projects in the developing world for my whole career. So it.

[Assistant] Never would have thought of that, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the young men in their 20s were the ones that ran the boats that did run. And so having a Chuukese, in fact, it was an island specific paddle, uh, became a source of pride. And so they all learned to carve their own paddles, which I thought was very cool.

[Assistant] It is, yeah. So what did Peace Corps, how did it influence you?

[User] Uh, it set the course of my life pretty much. Uh, I became, uh, so I studied public health when I came back, went and got a master's degree in public health, and became a diplomat with USAID doing foreign assistance projects in the developing world for my whole career. So it.

[Assistant] Never would have thought of that, right?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] You were going into engineering?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, it set the course of my life pretty much. Uh, I became, uh, so I studied public health when I came back, went and got a master's degree in public health, and became a diplomat with USAID doing foreign assistance projects in the developing world for my whole career. So it.

[Assistant] Never would have thought of that, right?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] You were going into engineering?

[User] Engineering, yes. And, uh, no, I would not have gone that route without Peace Corps for sure. Um, and so it set the course of my, you know, can't. Very difficult to get a job at USAID when you're not, haven't been a Peace Corps volunteer. To become a foreign service officer with USAID as opposed to State, they're separate, um, you have to speak a foreign language, have lived two years in the developing world, have a master's degree. I mean, where do Americans get two years in the developing world and learn a foreign language other than the Peace Corps, I mean?

[Assistant] I wasn't aware of those requirements. Was that always the case or is, I guess I'm an older generation. I wonder if the speaking of foreign language, maybe, but two years overseas experience. That's interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] You were going into engineering?

[User] Engineering, yes. And, uh, no, I would not have gone that route without Peace Corps for sure. Um, and so it set the course of my, you know, can't. Very difficult to get a job at USAID when you're not, haven't been a Peace Corps volunteer. To become a foreign service officer with USAID as opposed to State, they're separate, um, you have to speak a foreign language, have lived two years in the developing world, have a master's degree. I mean, where do Americans get two years in the developing world and learn a foreign language other than the Peace Corps, I mean?

[Assistant] I wasn't aware of those requirements. Was that always the case or is, I guess I'm an older generation. I wonder if the speaking of foreign language, maybe, but two years overseas experience. That's interesting.

[User] That was, that was a requirement for U.S. AID. At State Department, you take the exam. If you pass the exam, you're in State Department. AID hires specialists. So I was hired as a health officer. I had to have a graduate degree in public health, two years experience in the developing world, and experience with a foreign language so that I, they, I, they knew I had proficiency. I didn't have to be fluent, but I had to show an ability because I was going to have to be fluent in order to stay in the Foreign Service to become tenured. So USAID, that was the basic requirements to become a foreign service officer. Um, and so.

[Assistant] What did your parents say about all of that? Your father, your stepfather expected you to be an engineer, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Engineering, yes. And, uh, no, I would not have gone that route without Peace Corps for sure. Um, and so it set the course of my, you know, can't. Very difficult to get a job at USAID when you're not, haven't been a Peace Corps volunteer. To become a foreign service officer with USAID as opposed to State, they're separate, um, you have to speak a foreign language, have lived two years in the developing world, have a master's degree. I mean, where do Americans get two years in the developing world and learn a foreign language other than the Peace Corps, I mean?

[Assistant] I wasn't aware of those requirements. Was that always the case or is, I guess I'm an older generation. I wonder if the speaking of foreign language, maybe, but two years overseas experience. That's interesting.

[User] That was, that was a requirement for U.S. AID. At State Department, you take the exam. If you pass the exam, you're in State Department. AID hires specialists. So I was hired as a health officer. I had to have a graduate degree in public health, two years experience in the developing world, and experience with a foreign language so that I, they, I, they knew I had proficiency. I didn't have to be fluent, but I had to show an ability because I was going to have to be fluent in order to stay in the Foreign Service to become tenured. So USAID, that was the basic requirements to become a foreign service officer. Um, and so.

[Assistant] What did your parents say about all of that? Your father, your stepfather expected you to be an engineer, right?

[User] I, no, that, that was long since gone. I actually, when I came back, my first job back was as an engineer. So I got a job as an engineer while I went to graduate school. Um, but no, being a diplomat was, was good enough.

[Assistant] Okay. And where were you stationed afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was, that was a requirement for U.S. AID. At State Department, you take the exam. If you pass the exam, you're in State Department. AID hires specialists. So I was hired as a health officer. I had to have a graduate degree in public health, two years experience in the developing world, and experience with a foreign language so that I, they, I, they knew I had proficiency. I didn't have to be fluent, but I had to show an ability because I was going to have to be fluent in order to stay in the Foreign Service to become tenured. So USAID, that was the basic requirements to become a foreign service officer. Um, and so.

[Assistant] What did your parents say about all of that? Your father, your stepfather expected you to be an engineer, right?

[User] I, no, that, that was long since gone. I actually, when I came back, my first job back was as an engineer. So I got a job as an engineer while I went to graduate school. Um, but no, being a diplomat was, was good enough.

[Assistant] Okay. And where were you stationed afterwards?

[User] So I, first, when I first, I was newly married and my first posting was Tanzania. My wife actually ended up, who was also a Peace Corps volunteer from a different place. We met in graduate school, but she ended up starting the HIV AIDS program in Tanzania, became staff at the Peace Corps office there. Um, we went from there to the Philippines, um, back to Washington, then, uh, Nepal for a couple of years. Uh, actually we reopened with AID, U.S. AID, we helped fund and create, restart the Peace Corps program back in Nepal while I was there with USAID funding from my office. Um, uh, and then my last posting was in, actually in Germany for Libya. I was running the programs in Libya, but our embassy was closed at the time, so I was based in Frankfurt.

[Assistant] What do you think Peace Corps' impact has been on U.S. AID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, well, USAID as an organization is probably even today, 50 to 60 percent returned Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Um, because of the requirements. I mean, there are other ways to get those skill sets, but by and large, Americans generally go to the Peace Corps route.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and if you go to the Peace Corps route, then you often develop an affinity for wanting to help the developing world. So it feeds on itself. Um, I mean, that, that working in the village, living, is the basis of how we do effective development. So it's fundamental to how the U.S. works, um, in a foreign assistance realm for sure. Um, and is often, now volunteers are part of our foreign assistance. They're often HIV AIDS outreach workers or, um, funded by U.S. foreign assistance will help support Peace Corps who hires and does their own thing. But the money goes to Peace Corps to place HIV AIDS volunteers. Do the same thing with a program on food security. So we'll fund Peace Corps to, to send volunteers to certain countries to help work on food security programs, which are important to USAID's goals even today.

[Assistant] Do you think that's good? In the, in the old days, we were considered separate, very separate from official government.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and if you go to the Peace Corps route, then you often develop an affinity for wanting to help the developing world. So it feeds on itself. Um, I mean, that, that working in the village, living, is the basis of how we do effective development. So it's fundamental to how the U.S. works, um, in a foreign assistance realm for sure. Um, and is often, now volunteers are part of our foreign assistance. They're often HIV AIDS outreach workers or, um, funded by U.S. foreign assistance will help support Peace Corps who hires and does their own thing. But the money goes to Peace Corps to place HIV AIDS volunteers. Do the same thing with a program on food security. So we'll fund Peace Corps to, to send volunteers to certain countries to help work on food security programs, which are important to USAID's goals even today.

[Assistant] Do you think that's good? In the, in the old days, we were considered separate, very separate from official government.

[User] And, and on the ground they still are. So the volunteers would not recognize themselves as part of the USAID activity. They may know the pipeline feeds back, um, but I think that distinction is helpful in the field.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] The fact that USAID realizes that these outreach workers can be helpful, I think is fine. As long as there's a bit of an arm's length, I think that's helpful, um, for sure. Um, because I think the Peace Corps is better served if they are viewed as volunteers on their own. Um.

[Assistant] And so, I mean, USAID is criticized very often for not being on the ground enough, and too many contractors and, and all of that. I guess you have a different perspective with so many Peace Corps volunteers who have that on the ground experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, and on the ground they still are. So the volunteers would not recognize themselves as part of the USAID activity. They may know the pipeline feeds back, um, but I think that distinction is helpful in the field.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] The fact that USAID realizes that these outreach workers can be helpful, I think is fine. As long as there's a bit of an arm's length, I think that's helpful, um, for sure. Um, because I think the Peace Corps is better served if they are viewed as volunteers on their own. Um.

[Assistant] And so, I mean, USAID is criticized very often for not being on the ground enough, and too many contractors and, and all of that. I guess you have a different perspective with so many Peace Corps volunteers who have that on the ground experience.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] I guess you would, you would say that's not a fair criticism.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The fact that USAID realizes that these outreach workers can be helpful, I think is fine. As long as there's a bit of an arm's length, I think that's helpful, um, for sure. Um, because I think the Peace Corps is better served if they are viewed as volunteers on their own. Um.

[Assistant] And so, I mean, USAID is criticized very often for not being on the ground enough, and too many contractors and, and all of that. I guess you have a different perspective with so many Peace Corps volunteers who have that on the ground experience.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] I guess you would, you would say that's not a fair criticism.

[User] Uh, no.

[Assistant] I'm not criticizing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I mean, we are on the ground in almost every country we work in, so that, that's very real, as opposed to Treasury who's not, or Commerce that's not, or other government agencies that are not on the ground in these countries. USAID has offices in all these countries with large staffs, most of which are locally hired.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So there'll be a handful of Americans and then, you know, 8 or 10 to 1 local hires who.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Who are connected with the communities there. Um, we do pass off the resources to someone else to implement. That's the way the institution works these days. Um, uh, and in pretty much not since the Vietnam War has USAID implemented its own programs with USAID staff. So that's been phased out. I mean, we're the ultimate in outsourcing as a government agency can be pretty much. Um, but we can hire good grantees in particular and contractors too when need be.

[Assistant] Who are probably also staffed with former Peace Corps volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there'll be a handful of Americans and then, you know, 8 or 10 to 1 local hires who.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Who are connected with the communities there. Um, we do pass off the resources to someone else to implement. That's the way the institution works these days. Um, uh, and in pretty much not since the Vietnam War has USAID implemented its own programs with USAID staff. So that's been phased out. I mean, we're the ultimate in outsourcing as a government agency can be pretty much. Um, but we can hire good grantees in particular and contractors too when need be.

[Assistant] Who are probably also staffed with former Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Oh, you bet. Yep. Almost exclusively volunteers, in fact. Um, and they stay longer.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps has really been a training ground for development workers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Who are connected with the communities there. Um, we do pass off the resources to someone else to implement. That's the way the institution works these days. Um, uh, and in pretty much not since the Vietnam War has USAID implemented its own programs with USAID staff. So that's been phased out. I mean, we're the ultimate in outsourcing as a government agency can be pretty much. Um, but we can hire good grantees in particular and contractors too when need be.

[Assistant] Who are probably also staffed with former Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Oh, you bet. Yep. Almost exclusively volunteers, in fact. Um, and they stay longer.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps has really been a training ground for development workers.

[User] It is the training ground for U.S. Foreign Service, foreign assistance, foreign service officers, development workers. It is the training ground. I mean, if there's Georgetown's University of Foreign Service for State Department diplomats, Peace Corps is the one and only training ground for development professionals for the United States. And almost every country, every, all the other donor countries are very jealous of the fact that almost everybody at AID comes with very real on the ground in the village substantive experience, which no other donor, Japanese, Brits, French, Germans, nobody else has that at all. Um.

[Assistant] Is that something Peace Corps should be touting, or should that be kept as a secret?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you bet. Yep. Almost exclusively volunteers, in fact. Um, and they stay longer.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps has really been a training ground for development workers.

[User] It is the training ground for U.S. Foreign Service, foreign assistance, foreign service officers, development workers. It is the training ground. I mean, if there's Georgetown's University of Foreign Service for State Department diplomats, Peace Corps is the one and only training ground for development professionals for the United States. And almost every country, every, all the other donor countries are very jealous of the fact that almost everybody at AID comes with very real on the ground in the village substantive experience, which no other donor, Japanese, Brits, French, Germans, nobody else has that at all. Um.

[Assistant] Is that something Peace Corps should be touting, or should that be kept as a secret?

[User] No, it's, it's touted. In fact, in the, when we went to the Hill, that was part of the talking points, was it is the training ground for all of our foreign assistance professionals across the U.S. government, whether it's grantee, contractor, or in the government itself. Like I said, there are other avenues. It's not the only one, but, you know, all the others maybe make up 10 percent when you put them all together. The Jesuit volunteers, the Lutheran volunteers. You can go work for some companies that work in the developing world, but even then, you're not likely to be in the village. You're still going to be in the capital. Um, so it is, it's a very.

[Assistant] Well, a young friend of, of mine was in the Peace Corps in, in West Africa and then joined Médecins Sans Frontieres afterwards, but they probably hired him because of the Peace Corps experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is the training ground for U.S. Foreign Service, foreign assistance, foreign service officers, development workers. It is the training ground. I mean, if there's Georgetown's University of Foreign Service for State Department diplomats, Peace Corps is the one and only training ground for development professionals for the United States. And almost every country, every, all the other donor countries are very jealous of the fact that almost everybody at AID comes with very real on the ground in the village substantive experience, which no other donor, Japanese, Brits, French, Germans, nobody else has that at all. Um.

[Assistant] Is that something Peace Corps should be touting, or should that be kept as a secret?

[User] No, it's, it's touted. In fact, in the, when we went to the Hill, that was part of the talking points, was it is the training ground for all of our foreign assistance professionals across the U.S. government, whether it's grantee, contractor, or in the government itself. Like I said, there are other avenues. It's not the only one, but, you know, all the others maybe make up 10 percent when you put them all together. The Jesuit volunteers, the Lutheran volunteers. You can go work for some companies that work in the developing world, but even then, you're not likely to be in the village. You're still going to be in the capital. Um, so it is, it's a very.

[Assistant] Well, a young friend of, of mine was in the Peace Corps in, in West Africa and then joined Médecins Sans Frontieres afterwards, but they probably hired him because of the Peace Corps experience.

[User] Oh, absolutely, yeah. Especially MSF, yeah.

[Assistant] And now he's at USAID so full circle. So he's, he's come back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's, it's touted. In fact, in the, when we went to the Hill, that was part of the talking points, was it is the training ground for all of our foreign assistance professionals across the U.S. government, whether it's grantee, contractor, or in the government itself. Like I said, there are other avenues. It's not the only one, but, you know, all the others maybe make up 10 percent when you put them all together. The Jesuit volunteers, the Lutheran volunteers. You can go work for some companies that work in the developing world, but even then, you're not likely to be in the village. You're still going to be in the capital. Um, so it is, it's a very.

[Assistant] Well, a young friend of, of mine was in the Peace Corps in, in West Africa and then joined Médecins Sans Frontieres afterwards, but they probably hired him because of the Peace Corps experience.

[User] Oh, absolutely, yeah. Especially MSF, yeah.

[Assistant] And now he's at USAID so full circle. So he's, he's come back.

[User] Yeah. And that's, that's quite, quite common. In fact, it's very difficult to get in USAID now. I mean, while I say those are the minimum criteria, most people have much more experience than that to get in the door at USAID. The minimum criteria is two years in a foreign language and an advanced degree, but most people don't join until they have ten years in the developing country and speak two languages. And, you know.

[Assistant] So you've talked about the impact on USAID, on maybe that's the answer to the third question. You know, the impact on the United States in our communities, bringing Peace Corps, bringing the world back to the United States. Do you think there's been an impact there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and so that expands that individually for sure. Um, I mean, I've been in Washington mostly, which is certainly more globally aware as far as cities in the U.S. go. Um, so I'm not sure how much of a role I've played other than the impact on my family and talks in my hometown on occasion. Um, but I do think that flipping it around a little bit, almost every person in the developing world that has met an American, it's probably was a Peace Corps volunteer. And that is a good impression. You know, they're not the stereotype that one sees on TV. You know, it's not Baywatch.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] When you bump into a Peace Corps volunteer in Benin. Um, and, you know, I've interacted with diplomats my entire career. Almost to a one, they will say they knew a Peace Corps volunteer when they were young, and that created a very positive impression of the U.S. I mean, there probably are 40 ambassadors to the U.S. right now who were taught by Peace Corps volunteers, you know, from Africa and Asian countries. I even have, I've even met ambassadors who were fed by U.S. government programs.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] But almost always it's been a Peace Corps volunteer who's been their contact. And that is, I think the diplomatic value of that is absolutely incalculably valuable, far more than even your best ambassador, your country team could no way over, bring more value than those volunteers, especially with some continuity if the program lasts. That impact they'll have on that country's view of Americans for the positive, you know. And Peace Corps volunteers have their flaws, but their flaws.

[Assistant] They're people, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When you bump into a Peace Corps volunteer in Benin. Um, and, you know, I've interacted with diplomats my entire career. Almost to a one, they will say they knew a Peace Corps volunteer when they were young, and that created a very positive impression of the U.S. I mean, there probably are 40 ambassadors to the U.S. right now who were taught by Peace Corps volunteers, you know, from Africa and Asian countries. I even have, I've even met ambassadors who were fed by U.S. government programs.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] But almost always it's been a Peace Corps volunteer who's been their contact. And that is, I think the diplomatic value of that is absolutely incalculably valuable, far more than even your best ambassador, your country team could no way over, bring more value than those volunteers, especially with some continuity if the program lasts. That impact they'll have on that country's view of Americans for the positive, you know. And Peace Corps volunteers have their flaws, but their flaws.

[Assistant] They're people, yeah.

[User] They're flaws of people. They're not flaws of, of an institution or a flaws of a country. And people can see them for that and know, by and large, these are wonderful people that Americans are and view Americans that way because of it. And again, no other country has that in the whole world. And so the goodwill that buys us in so many ways, in so many venues, is beyond the, the, the, you know, a calculable price.

[Assistant] And that continues to this day, obviously.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're flaws of people. They're not flaws of, of an institution or a flaws of a country. And people can see them for that and know, by and large, these are wonderful people that Americans are and view Americans that way because of it. And again, no other country has that in the whole world. And so the goodwill that buys us in so many ways, in so many venues, is beyond the, the, the, you know, a calculable price.

[Assistant] And that continues to this day, obviously.

[User] Absolutely. Even if we ended the program today, not that we should.

[Assistant] No.

[User] That value would continue for those, and probably several generations past that, in fact.

[Assistant] You were, you were in country, just going back. You were in country when Micronesia became independent. Did you, can you talk a little bit about that whole transition, what that was like from a village up perspective, as opposed to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all. No. Um, and in many respects, they thought of themselves as an independent country, even though every law they passed had to be signed by some deputy assistant secretary of agriculture in Washington. Um. Now that's no longer the case. Um, in some respects, that oversight may have been beneficial, particularly in the beginning, but I think the neglect outweighed what benefit there might come from that over the long term.

[Assistant] So when you said that the education system was kept functioning, that's under, under the American?

[User] Under American oversight.

[Assistant] As well as post. So you were there, what, one year during the Americans and one year after?

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] You didn't feel any real difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Under American oversight.

[Assistant] As well as post. So you were there, what, one year during the Americans and one year after?

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] You didn't feel any real difference?

[User]
No. Because the U.S. government was granting money to the government, which paid the teacher salaries. Um, and that was how, that's how the whole country still functions today. And that grant didn't substantively change, uh, with this turnover. Um, they chartered it. With the turnover, they became an independent country. They got a seat in the United Nations. Um, you know, they had to open an embassy here in Washington. Um, now, I think the grant, the amount of money the U.S. government support provides has been dropping in stages since then, um, probably to the great detriment of Micronesia, I imagine. But, um, at the time it didn't. There was no tangible difference other than they had a vote in the United Nations.

And, I mean, even then they issued their own passports. So they, that must have been happening for some time up, even though it was a U.S. territory they had their own passports. Unlike Guam, which is part of the United States proper. If you're born in Guam, you're an American citizen. You get an American passport.

[Assistant] Oh, like the Northern Marianas was, was also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] You didn't feel any real difference?

[User]
No. Because the U.S. government was granting money to the government, which paid the teacher salaries. Um, and that was how, that's how the whole country still functions today. And that grant didn't substantively change, uh, with this turnover. Um, they chartered it. With the turnover, they became an independent country. They got a seat in the United Nations. Um, you know, they had to open an embassy here in Washington. Um, now, I think the grant, the amount of money the U.S. government support provides has been dropping in stages since then, um, probably to the great detriment of Micronesia, I imagine. But, um, at the time it didn't. There was no tangible difference other than they had a vote in the United Nations.

And, I mean, even then they issued their own passports. So they, that must have been happening for some time up, even though it was a U.S. territory they had their own passports. Unlike Guam, which is part of the United States proper. If you're born in Guam, you're an American citizen. You get an American passport.

[Assistant] Oh, like the Northern Marianas was, was also.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] A different category.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. Because the U.S. government was granting money to the government, which paid the teacher salaries. Um, and that was how, that's how the whole country still functions today. And that grant didn't substantively change, uh, with this turnover. Um, they chartered it. With the turnover, they became an independent country. They got a seat in the United Nations. Um, you know, they had to open an embassy here in Washington. Um, now, I think the grant, the amount of money the U.S. government support provides has been dropping in stages since then, um, probably to the great detriment of Micronesia, I imagine. But, um, at the time it didn't. There was no tangible difference other than they had a vote in the United Nations.

And, I mean, even then they issued their own passports. So they, that must have been happening for some time up, even though it was a U.S. territory they had their own passports. Unlike Guam, which is part of the United States proper. If you're born in Guam, you're an American citizen. You get an American passport.

[Assistant] Oh, like the Northern Marianas was, was also.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] A different category.

[User] It's the same.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands. Guam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] A different category.

[User] It's the same.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands. Guam.

[User] Are American.

[Assistant] And then there is a second tier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's the same.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands. Guam.

[User] Are American.

[Assistant] And then there is a second tier.

[User] These are called trust territories.

[Assistant] Trust territories. I don't understand the difference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These are called trust territories.

[Assistant] Trust territories. I don't understand the difference.

[User] Yeah. The same, very similar arrangement with Marianas. Um, and the trust territory relationship.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, and so now it's a treaty as opposed to a trust territory relationship, but they still retain basing rights. And for those basing rights, the U.S. continues to make support payments to the government, which essentially keeps the governments running because they have no tax base.

[Assistant] Well, when we were talking before, you said, you know, how should you prepare? I said, what, you know, think of stories you want to tell. Are there any stories that you want to tell that I didn't ask you about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was like, that is a difference. If those other moms think to give ORS when their babies are sick, that may actually make a difference.

[Assistant] So what, I don't know what ORS is.

[User] Oh, I'm sorry. Oral rehydration solution.

[Assistant] So it's, oh, it's just a powder.

[User] It's a little packet of minerals you mix with water to treat diarrhea.

[Assistant] Oh. We didn't have those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, I mean, it's a, it's a. It's universally reduced diarrheal disease around the world.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] Um. Doesn't taste very good. Um. But it's, uh, essentially like a.

[Assistant] Electrolytes?

[User] Electrolytes, yes. Designed for sick people and children in particular. Um, and, um, because you eventually got.

[Assistant] So every Peace Corps volunteer should have packets.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Doesn't taste very good. Um. But it's, uh, essentially like a.

[Assistant] Electrolytes?

[User] Electrolytes, yes. Designed for sick people and children in particular. Um, and, um, because you eventually got.

[Assistant] So every Peace Corps volunteer should have packets.

[User] And they, every Peace Corps volunteer gets packets of these for themselves.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they, every Peace Corps volunteer gets packets of these for themselves.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] Because they're like, if you get diarrhea, you need to drink this stuff. But you can buy them for pennies anywhere. And Peace Corps buries their volunteers in them. So I had plenty. So I left them with her so she didn't have to buy them. But they're readily available everywhere in the world, frankly. Um, but people don't always use them because they don't taste very well and they don't believe they work. And, you know, and, you know, they give it to them and one baby dies. So they say, oh, this is useless. Um, but that baby lived. And that mom believed that was part of the reason why and was teaching other moms. I was like, that may actually make a difference in this village to save a baby's life someday. Um, that made me very, very happy. If I could have done more of that, it would have been great.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Um. Total luck. Not any particular skill.

[Assistant] No, not total luck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they're like, if you get diarrhea, you need to drink this stuff. But you can buy them for pennies anywhere. And Peace Corps buries their volunteers in them. So I had plenty. So I left them with her so she didn't have to buy them. But they're readily available everywhere in the world, frankly. Um, but people don't always use them because they don't taste very well and they don't believe they work. And, you know, and, you know, they give it to them and one baby dies. So they say, oh, this is useless. Um, but that baby lived. And that mom believed that was part of the reason why and was teaching other moms. I was like, that may actually make a difference in this village to save a baby's life someday. Um, that made me very, very happy. If I could have done more of that, it would have been great.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Um. Total luck. Not any particular skill.

[Assistant] No, not total luck.

[User] But, uh.

[Assistant] Well, you knew what to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Total luck. Not any particular skill.

[Assistant] No, not total luck.

[User] But, uh.

[Assistant] Well, you knew what to do.

[User] I knew something to do.

[Assistant] Um. So that's a really good story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, uh.

[Assistant] Well, you knew what to do.

[User] I knew something to do.

[Assistant] Um. So that's a really good story.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Any other stories you want to? I'm out of questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Any other stories you want to? I'm out of questions.

[User] What is the, what's, what's the fun one I always tell, which is the shark story. You live in a Pacific island, you got to have a shark story.

[Assistant] Yes. Okay.

[User]
So first week or two, you know, when you go through training, they're like, well, if you're unsure what to do, just do whatever the, you know, your host family, your locals do. Whatever they're doing you can, you know, do that, you should be okay. So we went reef fishing. So you go, we went to an outer reef and swimming in the reef. And I'm just taking pictures with my camera because I'm not going to be able to spear a fish to save my life. Um, and I'm swimming around snorkeling, and I look and I'm like, oh, there's a shark. So I look around and the other guys are still fishing. So I'm like, okay, it must be okay. Shark goes away. Ten minutes later, there are two sharks. Big sharks. All right, look around there. Guys are still fishing. It's okay. All right, I'm doing good.

Come up, I turn, there are four sharks. And I stick my head out of the water and all the guys are up on the shore. I'm like? And they're like, don't you see the shark? I'm like, yeah! Why didn't you tell me? And I get scrambling out of the water and get out of the shark. Like, so much for following what the locals do. They didn't care for me at all. They left me to the sharks. It's like, don't you see the shark? Like, yeah! But it all turned out fine.

[Assistant] So sharks don't necessarily attack right away, is that it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, that was less common. Overfishing was just there were more people than the reefs could support. Um, uh, a little bit of dynamite fishing, but that was illegal and kind of frowned upon, so you couldn't. By the time I was there, you couldn't sell dynamited fish. And they can usually tell when a fish has been dynamited versus caught.

[Assistant] Doesn't look too good.

[User] No, I mean, I mean, they're, they, they, they're. I'm not sure how they could tell, but they said they could generally tell dynamited fish from regular fish. And you could sell them individually, but you couldn't sell them to a fishmonger.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He wouldn't buy dynamited fish. Um, and so it was less common. It still happened, but was less common then. And you could, snorkeling you could see. You're like, oh, that was dynamite there. You could just see a big circle of dead coral. You're like, that was dynamite.

[Assistant] It's really too bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I mean, I mean, they're, they, they, they're. I'm not sure how they could tell, but they said they could generally tell dynamited fish from regular fish. And you could sell them individually, but you couldn't sell them to a fishmonger.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He wouldn't buy dynamited fish. Um, and so it was less common. It still happened, but was less common then. And you could, snorkeling you could see. You're like, oh, that was dynamite there. You could just see a big circle of dead coral. You're like, that was dynamite.

[Assistant] It's really too bad.

[User] Yeah, and they can get it because the Japanese ships are all there. They can snorkel down to a ship and pull out a, you know, a torpedo and take it apart and get the powder out of it. I mean, there's tens of thousands of them still there. So if they really, I mean, they can readily available to make their own dynamite, which of course is not the wisest thing to do either. Um, but it wasn't hard for them to get even in a tiny island out there.

[Assistant] Well, why don't we end with the dynamite story?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He wouldn't buy dynamited fish. Um, and so it was less common. It still happened, but was less common then. And you could, snorkeling you could see. You're like, oh, that was dynamite there. You could just see a big circle of dead coral. You're like, that was dynamite.

[Assistant] It's really too bad.

[User] Yeah, and they can get it because the Japanese ships are all there. They can snorkel down to a ship and pull out a, you know, a torpedo and take it apart and get the powder out of it. I mean, there's tens of thousands of them still there. So if they really, I mean, they can readily available to make their own dynamite, which of course is not the wisest thing to do either. Um, but it wasn't hard for them to get even in a tiny island out there.

[Assistant] Well, why don't we end with the dynamite story?

[User] I'd call it, I'm gonna call it a dynamite story from now on.

[Assistant] Dynamite story. So thanks so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and they can get it because the Japanese ships are all there. They can snorkel down to a ship and pull out a, you know, a torpedo and take it apart and get the powder out of it. I mean, there's tens of thousands of them still there. So if they really, I mean, they can readily available to make their own dynamite, which of course is not the wisest thing to do either. Um, but it wasn't hard for them to get even in a tiny island out there.

[Assistant] Well, why don't we end with the dynamite story?

[User] I'd call it, I'm gonna call it a dynamite story from now on.

[Assistant] Dynamite story. So thanks so much.

[User] No, thank you. This was fun.

[Assistant] It was fun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd call it, I'm gonna call it a dynamite story from now on.

[Assistant] Dynamite story. So thanks so much.

[User] No, thank you. This was fun.

[Assistant] It was fun.

[User] Nobody else wants to listen to my Peace Corps stories anymore.

[Assistant] I want to listen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, thank you. This was fun.

[Assistant] It was fun.

[User] Nobody else wants to listen to my Peace Corps stories anymore.

[Assistant] I want to listen.

[User] You were very nice.

[Assistant] And now, and now other people will listen as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was actually very surprised at how well it came out. There are certain areas if you get the lighting just right you can sort of see the brushstrokes in it, the roller marks. But most of the time when you’re viewing it I don’t think you’d have any idea that it was actually roller-applied. I don’t think the public has got any idea that that’s how we did it.

[Assistant] What are your feelings as Enterprise is set to go to New York?

[User] I’m a little sad in a way. It’ll be neat to get the [OV-103] Discovery, but I think of all the work that we put into the Enterprise. I’m really proud of all the work we did, and I hate to see it go. It’s nice to be able to look at it on a regular basis and think, “We did that.” But it won’t be too far away so hopefully we’ll be able to visit it up there too.

[Assistant] I imagine they’ll be calling on your expertise.

[User] Well, we’re certainly always willing to help. If they need help with anything, that’s what we’re here for.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have any questions?

I just have one. Is there a special memory that you have of working on that project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, it was a lot of work.

[Assistant] Did you have any schematics from NASA in order to rebuild those?

[User] No, nothing. I don’t think there was anything available. I don’t remember now what the exact history of them was, whether it was actually NASA that built them or if they had them contracted out, but both of them were a little bit different. The construction was slightly different inside, the bracing and such. We tried to replicate as much as possible the way they had originally done it.\n\n We did make some improvements. We added some additional bracing inside just to make sure that if there was any rot that we couldn’t see or couldn’t get to, that they were plenty strong enough for when we had to hoist them up and put them onto the Shuttle. I ended up also being part of the team that installed the OMS pods after they were refurbished, and part of the team that took them off a couple months ago when we were getting ready for Enterprise to go.

[Assistant] A sad moment, bittersweet.

[User] Bittersweet, yes. It’ll be neat to get Discovery in, but it will be sad to see Enterprise go.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you very much for your time this morning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. With military service, it was actually, I think, almost 43 years. So, yeah.

[Assistant] Wow! Yeah, a long, long time.

[User] Long time. It was an interesting career. I have to say that.

[Assistant] Yes. So going back to the very beginning of your NARA service, you said that NARA contacted you. How did that work?

[User] Well, at that time, when you took the PACE exam, I think you put down what sort of work you would like to do. It was so long ago. But I indicated that I was interested in working in archives. And I guess if you score high enough, you know, your name is referred to different agencies. And I think I also indicated that I was interested in staying in St. Louis. And so that also, I guess, narrowed it down. At that time, NPRC was participating pretty aggressively in the CIDS program, bringing on people. And with that, you came in as a GS-5 and, if you were successful in the training program, in two years, you were advanced through to a GS-9. And I was an archives specialist at that time. There was not an opening for an archivist at that time. Those positions were filled, but there was a need for archives specialists. And so that was the position I was offered, and I did accept it.

[Assistant] Okay. And where did this training take place? Was this at 9700 Page Avenue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Long time. It was an interesting career. I have to say that.

[Assistant] Yes. So going back to the very beginning of your NARA service, you said that NARA contacted you. How did that work?

[User] Well, at that time, when you took the PACE exam, I think you put down what sort of work you would like to do. It was so long ago. But I indicated that I was interested in working in archives. And I guess if you score high enough, you know, your name is referred to different agencies. And I think I also indicated that I was interested in staying in St. Louis. And so that also, I guess, narrowed it down. At that time, NPRC was participating pretty aggressively in the CIDS program, bringing on people. And with that, you came in as a GS-5 and, if you were successful in the training program, in two years, you were advanced through to a GS-9. And I was an archives specialist at that time. There was not an opening for an archivist at that time. Those positions were filled, but there was a need for archives specialists. And so that was the position I was offered, and I did accept it.

[Assistant] Okay. And where did this training take place? Was this at 9700 Page Avenue?

[User] At that time, NPRC had two facilities. I guess they have two now as well. But yes, there was the military building at 9700 Page, and then there was also the civilian record center, which was at 111 Winnebago Street near downtown St. Louis. And in training, you had a complete training overview of the operations of both centers, both buildings. Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Okay. And what did they have you doing during the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it almost doubled the holdings of the National Archives. Something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Very significant. Is that why the National Archives was established in St. Louis? Because of those records?

[User] Yes. That's why there was an archival unit there. Exactly. When the records became permanent, they had to establish an archival unit there which had not existed before. Yeah, the only archival function in St. Louis prior to the reappraisal of the individual service records was the appraisal that I mentioned. The appraisal function that was directed at, not the personnel records, but at the military field command records that had landed in St. Louis mainly because there was room and that were unscheduled. And so that was the only archival work that happened in St. Louis up until 1999, when the individual military service records were reappraised as permanent. Then there had to be an archival unit established. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And was that established at the new building, the One Archives Drive location? Or was that at the—?

[User] No, it began at 9700 Page Avenue still. Yes. We were at 9700 Page until 2011, and the Preservation Unit was established in 2000, and the Archival Unit was established in 2004. So we were there at 9700 Page from 2004 until 2011. What is that, seven years? And then we moved into the new building at One Archives Drive now.

[Assistant] But at this time, you were the senior archivist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's why there was an archival unit there. Exactly. When the records became permanent, they had to establish an archival unit there which had not existed before. Yeah, the only archival function in St. Louis prior to the reappraisal of the individual service records was the appraisal that I mentioned. The appraisal function that was directed at, not the personnel records, but at the military field command records that had landed in St. Louis mainly because there was room and that were unscheduled. And so that was the only archival work that happened in St. Louis up until 1999, when the individual military service records were reappraised as permanent. Then there had to be an archival unit established. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And was that established at the new building, the One Archives Drive location? Or was that at the—?

[User] No, it began at 9700 Page Avenue still. Yes. We were at 9700 Page until 2011, and the Preservation Unit was established in 2000, and the Archival Unit was established in 2004. So we were there at 9700 Page from 2004 until 2011. What is that, seven years? And then we moved into the new building at One Archives Drive now.

[Assistant] But at this time, you were the senior archivist?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you help with the move?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it began at 9700 Page Avenue still. Yes. We were at 9700 Page until 2011, and the Preservation Unit was established in 2000, and the Archival Unit was established in 2004. So we were there at 9700 Page from 2004 until 2011. What is that, seven years? And then we moved into the new building at One Archives Drive now.

[Assistant] But at this time, you were the senior archivist?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you help with the move?

[User] Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. My staff, we did tremendous work to physically move the records. And of course, we had to plan. We had a wonderful unit within the archives. The archival—they change the name all the time—I forget. The National Archives in St. Louis is what we eventually were called. And we had a team of management analysts in the Archives at St. Louis who worked on the planning and designing of the new building, because it was to hold archival records. So I mean, yeah, that was a huge, huge effort. Did you say you interviewed Bryan McGraw? He was brought in as the head of the archives basically to develop that new building. I mean, he had had a lot of experience from working as an Air Force officer in logistics and so forth. Anyway, he hired—I think we had at least three management analysts working on the design of the new building. Yeah, it was quite an operation.

[Assistant] In terms of the whole archives then moving to this new building, what were some of the challenges, you know, starting fresh in a new building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. When they converted to an electronic OMPF, the technicians had to become proficient in accessing them, and there was negotiation with the service departments establishing the conditions under which they could have direct access to those records. And then the issue of where and how those records would be brought into NARA and how that—I mean, I was not directly involved in all of that—but it changed how the individual correspondence technicians at the NPRC would do their work because, you know, at that point they were looking at a record that was online. But also prior to that, there was a period when the military services were microfilming, not microfilming—what's the other term? Not microfilm, but micro...the little cards...

[Assistant] Microfiche?

[User] They were microfiching records. And of course, copies of the fiche had to come to NPRC because the records didn't exist in paper. They were on fiche. So that process gradually became subject to using different technology: microfiche readers. And then eventually, the records were on a computer and they had to be able to access those and print out documents for the customers, the members of the public that were coming in to want their records or I should say the veteran or next of kin. Those records—obviously they're still subject to Privacy Act restrictions because they're the newer record—but they are a permanent series that will eventually come into NARA’s legal custody. They will transfer from the agency to NARA. So yeah, that was a major change.

[Assistant] Lots of changes. Let's see here. 2017. That's when you retired from the National Archives, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were microfiching records. And of course, copies of the fiche had to come to NPRC because the records didn't exist in paper. They were on fiche. So that process gradually became subject to using different technology: microfiche readers. And then eventually, the records were on a computer and they had to be able to access those and print out documents for the customers, the members of the public that were coming in to want their records or I should say the veteran or next of kin. Those records—obviously they're still subject to Privacy Act restrictions because they're the newer record—but they are a permanent series that will eventually come into NARA’s legal custody. They will transfer from the agency to NARA. So yeah, that was a major change.

[Assistant] Lots of changes. Let's see here. 2017. That's when you retired from the National Archives, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day?

[User] I think my last day—I have by me here the copy they sent me of the oral history interview. And I think I did that, it says September 20, 2017. And I think my last day was the 30th of September. So like a week later. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did they do anything special for you when you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day?

[User] I think my last day—I have by me here the copy they sent me of the oral history interview. And I think I did that, it says September 20, 2017. And I think my last day was the 30th of September. So like a week later. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did they do anything special for you when you retired?

[User] I didn't want anything special, but my employees did. We had dinner, which was great. They insisted that we all went out to dinner. It was a lot of fun. I didn't want a big retirement ceremony in the building. I just wasn't interested in that. But I did have a wonderful retirement dinner with my staff, and we enjoyed it. And I've been in touch with a lot of them over the years since then. We get together. A bunch of us are trivia enthusiasts, and so we have a team of about eight or ten of us that very often participates in trivia events around the St. Louis area. Yeah. And we do pretty well. Yeah, we do pretty well. Archivists, you know, are full of a lot of general information, so yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That's fun! That's great! Yeah. We're coming up on the end of our interview here. Was there anything that we didn't cover that you would like to add or any memories that you have? You know, anything that was interesting or unusual or anything that you might want to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my last day—I have by me here the copy they sent me of the oral history interview. And I think I did that, it says September 20, 2017. And I think my last day was the 30th of September. So like a week later. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Did they do anything special for you when you retired?

[User] I didn't want anything special, but my employees did. We had dinner, which was great. They insisted that we all went out to dinner. It was a lot of fun. I didn't want a big retirement ceremony in the building. I just wasn't interested in that. But I did have a wonderful retirement dinner with my staff, and we enjoyed it. And I've been in touch with a lot of them over the years since then. We get together. A bunch of us are trivia enthusiasts, and so we have a team of about eight or ten of us that very often participates in trivia events around the St. Louis area. Yeah. And we do pretty well. Yeah, we do pretty well. Archivists, you know, are full of a lot of general information, so yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That's fun! That's great! Yeah. We're coming up on the end of our interview here. Was there anything that we didn't cover that you would like to add or any memories that you have? You know, anything that was interesting or unusual or anything that you might want to add?

[User] Well, thinking back, especially working in the Records Reconstruction Branch in those early years, in the early '80s, it was just the privilege of working with people who were a generation ahead of me, people that lived through and worked through and served in the services during the Second World War, in the Korean War. They were just really a remarkable group of people. I mean, I was in my early 30s, I guess, and they were in their 50s and 60s. And you just learned a tremendous amount from them. And they were just terrific folks. So that was a real privilege. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I think sometimes the people you work with really make a job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, thinking back, especially working in the Records Reconstruction Branch in those early years, in the early '80s, it was just the privilege of working with people who were a generation ahead of me, people that lived through and worked through and served in the services during the Second World War, in the Korean War. They were just really a remarkable group of people. I mean, I was in my early 30s, I guess, and they were in their 50s and 60s. And you just learned a tremendous amount from them. And they were just terrific folks. So that was a real privilege. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I think sometimes the people you work with really make a job.

[User] Oh, yeah. I mean, they knew so much. I mean, it was direct knowledge for how the military worked in those years. And as I say, the men, a lot of them, were veterans. And the women worked very often for the Army and the Army Air Corps or the Navy during the Second World War and the postwar years, the Korean War. And I mean, they just knew how records were and the reasons and the purposes for the records being created, and they had a tremendous amount of direct knowledge and that's what made, to me, the Reconstruction Branch so incredible in those years. And hopefully the people there now are benefiting from that. Well, there’s our various operating procedures. It was all documented, what you were supposed to do, where you were supposed to go for record information in order to reconstruct the stuff lost in the fire. And those procedures and those reference materials are still there. And hopefully the people working there today are using them. But when I was there, there were people with direct personal knowledge. That's when those processes were put in place, and they knew a heck of a lot. Yeah, it was great.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when you get them written down, you can pass them on and everyone will know the steps.

[User] Right. Hopefully so. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, hopefully. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. I mean, they knew so much. I mean, it was direct knowledge for how the military worked in those years. And as I say, the men, a lot of them, were veterans. And the women worked very often for the Army and the Army Air Corps or the Navy during the Second World War and the postwar years, the Korean War. And I mean, they just knew how records were and the reasons and the purposes for the records being created, and they had a tremendous amount of direct knowledge and that's what made, to me, the Reconstruction Branch so incredible in those years. And hopefully the people there now are benefiting from that. Well, there’s our various operating procedures. It was all documented, what you were supposed to do, where you were supposed to go for record information in order to reconstruct the stuff lost in the fire. And those procedures and those reference materials are still there. And hopefully the people working there today are using them. But when I was there, there were people with direct personal knowledge. That's when those processes were put in place, and they knew a heck of a lot. Yeah, it was great.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when you get them written down, you can pass them on and everyone will know the steps.

[User] Right. Hopefully so. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, hopefully. Right.

[User] Exactly. I guess that's about all I can think of.

[Assistant] Okay. So, well, hey, I want to thank you again for agreeing to participate in this oral history project. You've just had such an amazing career. You've gone through different branches and had so many different experiences. It's just been really interesting hearing about all of this. So thank you. And I'll be in touch with you soon. And I don't suppose you would have maybe a photograph that we could post along with your transcript when we get that online? You can think about it if you want.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Hopefully so. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, hopefully. Right.

[User] Exactly. I guess that's about all I can think of.

[Assistant] Okay. So, well, hey, I want to thank you again for agreeing to participate in this oral history project. You've just had such an amazing career. You've gone through different branches and had so many different experiences. It's just been really interesting hearing about all of this. So thank you. And I'll be in touch with you soon. And I don't suppose you would have maybe a photograph that we could post along with your transcript when we get that online? You can think about it if you want.

[User] I will. I'll see if there's something. I'll see what I can come up with. I think they did something at the facility there at one point, and somebody said that there's a photograph that's still up there. So, I don't know, maybe I can figure out where that is. But, anyhow, the other thing I definitely will do is see if I can come up with contact information for Wendy Hollingsworth. I think she would be a tremendous person to be in touch with, because she was there. I mean, she actively participated in the recovery after the fire. She was working there on July 12, and she was there for the next 30 years or so. Wendy would be a wonderful resource to include in this. So I'll try to find out and follow up on that.

[Assistant] Okay. I really appreciate that because, yeah, she was not on our list yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. I guess that's about all I can think of.

[Assistant] Okay. So, well, hey, I want to thank you again for agreeing to participate in this oral history project. You've just had such an amazing career. You've gone through different branches and had so many different experiences. It's just been really interesting hearing about all of this. So thank you. And I'll be in touch with you soon. And I don't suppose you would have maybe a photograph that we could post along with your transcript when we get that online? You can think about it if you want.

[User] I will. I'll see if there's something. I'll see what I can come up with. I think they did something at the facility there at one point, and somebody said that there's a photograph that's still up there. So, I don't know, maybe I can figure out where that is. But, anyhow, the other thing I definitely will do is see if I can come up with contact information for Wendy Hollingsworth. I think she would be a tremendous person to be in touch with, because she was there. I mean, she actively participated in the recovery after the fire. She was working there on July 12, and she was there for the next 30 years or so. Wendy would be a wonderful resource to include in this. So I'll try to find out and follow up on that.

[Assistant] Okay. I really appreciate that because, yeah, she was not on our list yet.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much. And I hope you have a nice rest of your week.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Hillside, New Jersey.

[Assistant] And were you raised in New Jersey, as well?

[User] Yes. Went to school, graduated high school there.

[Assistant] Did you attend college?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you marry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Went to school, graduated high school there.

[Assistant] Did you attend college?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you marry?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Do you have any children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you marry?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Do you have any children?

[User] No.

[Assistant] How did you become employed by NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He lived at Stanford University campus and also taught there. As a member of both, he would spend early A.M. hours at NACA then would go to the National Academy of Sciences’ offices on Constitution Avenue.

[Assistant] When you heard about this position at NACA, did you do any sort of research to find out what NACA was and what it did?

[User] No, I didn’t. Whenever I told someone I worked for NACA, I would be asked, “What’s that?” The only thing is, when you’re in high school—you graduated high school—did they ask you what you wanted to pursue?

[Assistant] At some point, yes, I think so.

[User] They printed it in our yearbook—aviation. Some of the other students, my buddies and friends, “Aviation? What are you going to do? Aviation? You’re going to pursue aviation?”\n\n I said, “Well, that’s what I put down, because I used to like to go to the airport and hang around and watch all the airplanes come in and out, and so forth,” since I didn’t live too far from the airport. But anyway, that’s what I chose.\n\n But they said, “Well, listen, we’re going to Washington.” The graduating class always went to Washington. That was a big deal. I don’t know where your graduation class—you probably went to Spain, like my niece. [Laughs] Where did you go?

[Assistant] They didn’t have any trips when I graduated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t. Whenever I told someone I worked for NACA, I would be asked, “What’s that?” The only thing is, when you’re in high school—you graduated high school—did they ask you what you wanted to pursue?

[Assistant] At some point, yes, I think so.

[User] They printed it in our yearbook—aviation. Some of the other students, my buddies and friends, “Aviation? What are you going to do? Aviation? You’re going to pursue aviation?”\n\n I said, “Well, that’s what I put down, because I used to like to go to the airport and hang around and watch all the airplanes come in and out, and so forth,” since I didn’t live too far from the airport. But anyway, that’s what I chose.\n\n But they said, “Well, listen, we’re going to Washington.” The graduating class always went to Washington. That was a big deal. I don’t know where your graduation class—you probably went to Spain, like my niece. [Laughs] Where did you go?

[Assistant] They didn’t have any trips when I graduated.

[User] They didn’t?

[Assistant] No. No, we didn’t go anywhere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They printed it in our yearbook—aviation. Some of the other students, my buddies and friends, “Aviation? What are you going to do? Aviation? You’re going to pursue aviation?”\n\n I said, “Well, that’s what I put down, because I used to like to go to the airport and hang around and watch all the airplanes come in and out, and so forth,” since I didn’t live too far from the airport. But anyway, that’s what I chose.\n\n But they said, “Well, listen, we’re going to Washington.” The graduating class always went to Washington. That was a big deal. I don’t know where your graduation class—you probably went to Spain, like my niece. [Laughs] Where did you go?

[Assistant] They didn’t have any trips when I graduated.

[User] They didn’t?

[Assistant] No. No, we didn’t go anywhere.

[User] How come? Did the school ever have it?

[Assistant] I think that there may have been some opportunities to go on smaller trips, but not necessarily the entire class.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Teach other secretaries. Hey, wait a minute. When you hire somebody, you’re hiring because of the qualifications they have. I have to teach them something? I have to teach them this? No way. I told him, “I thank you very much for trying.” He tried to create this new job. But he was willing to do that, and I said, “No, I can’t accept that. I don’t want to teach anyone.”\n\n Because I felt like telling him, “Look, I had to know what to do in order to get a job, so the people they hire today, they don’t take civil service exams anymore.” I don’t know how they hire; I really don’t. I don’t know how they get their jobs. When I was hired, you had to pass a test, and they held tests all over the country. That’s how they hired people for civil service. It’s changed. Everything’s changed.\n\n An opening came in the Aerodynamics Section across the street. We had another building; the two buildings were close. So I accepted that. I said, “I’ll go to Aerodynamics. I know those people over there.” So that’s how that worked.

[Assistant] Let me ask you some more questions about NACA.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] When you first started working for NACA, this is the late thirties. What were working conditions like over at NACA?

[User] The conditions, well, I tell you, I started in ’42.

[Assistant] Oh, you started in ’42.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just worked, that’s all. I don’t know what I can tell you about that. It was a war town. A lot of soldiers in town, always.

[Assistant] Was there a dress code at NACA? Was there a dress code at Headquarters?

[User] A dress code?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. But those days, they don’t dress like today, of course. You wore what you had to wear. You were covered. [Laughs]

[Assistant] And what would you wear to work, typically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A dress code?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. But those days, they don’t dress like today, of course. You wore what you had to wear. You were covered. [Laughs]

[Assistant] And what would you wear to work, typically?

[User] I wore sport clothes most of the time. Fully dressed. Dresses all the time, never pants, never.

[Assistant] Did you wear a hat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wore sport clothes most of the time. Fully dressed. Dresses all the time, never pants, never.

[Assistant] Did you wear a hat?

[User] I never wore a hat. From the very beginning, my mother couldn’t get me to wear a hat. I wouldn’t even wear a scarf in the wintertime. No, I was bareheaded most of the time, even when I went to school. I own one hat, which I don’t wear. It’s been in the box for years. The feather might just be [makes sound]. [Laughter] No, we dressed normally. Not like today.\n\n Hey, I was at the mall yesterday, San Jose Mall, at the end of the car line or whatever; I don’t know where it was. Uh, terrible. Well, it’s the same way in Washington. I’ll tell you, I don’t know how the girls—I used to—if you’re recording this, I don’t want to tell you that, but anyway, you know, we covered ourselves up. We were not naked from here and here. See-through blouses? Oh, god, forget it. No, we were fully dressed. I can’t tell you anything about that other than we were fully dressed.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That’s all.

[Assistant] You said that there were around fifty people working there. Did you have any social activities, Christmas parties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never wore a hat. From the very beginning, my mother couldn’t get me to wear a hat. I wouldn’t even wear a scarf in the wintertime. No, I was bareheaded most of the time, even when I went to school. I own one hat, which I don’t wear. It’s been in the box for years. The feather might just be [makes sound]. [Laughter] No, we dressed normally. Not like today.\n\n Hey, I was at the mall yesterday, San Jose Mall, at the end of the car line or whatever; I don’t know where it was. Uh, terrible. Well, it’s the same way in Washington. I’ll tell you, I don’t know how the girls—I used to—if you’re recording this, I don’t want to tell you that, but anyway, you know, we covered ourselves up. We were not naked from here and here. See-through blouses? Oh, god, forget it. No, we were fully dressed. I can’t tell you anything about that other than we were fully dressed.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That’s all.

[Assistant] You said that there were around fifty people working there. Did you have any social activities, Christmas parties?

[User] We had picnics, NACA picnics. One time we had one that was held in Maryland, and it was at a regular picnic ground, when Langley Aeronautical Laboratory people came up from Hampton, Virginia. Yes, a group came up, and they—what did they do? It was their own invention, I guess. I don’t know. I have never seen anything like it. They set up aluminum sheets with hooks on them and added pieces of chicken on the hooks. A fire was built which cooked them. They were delicious. I remember that one picnic very well. Then they had a place where you could play baseball, ride swings, and dance.

[Assistant] Did you spend a lot of time with people who you worked with in the office outside of the office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s all.

[Assistant] You said that there were around fifty people working there. Did you have any social activities, Christmas parties?

[User] We had picnics, NACA picnics. One time we had one that was held in Maryland, and it was at a regular picnic ground, when Langley Aeronautical Laboratory people came up from Hampton, Virginia. Yes, a group came up, and they—what did they do? It was their own invention, I guess. I don’t know. I have never seen anything like it. They set up aluminum sheets with hooks on them and added pieces of chicken on the hooks. A fire was built which cooked them. They were delicious. I remember that one picnic very well. Then they had a place where you could play baseball, ride swings, and dance.

[Assistant] Did you spend a lot of time with people who you worked with in the office outside of the office?

[User] Not I. No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] Give me an idea of what sort of equipment you were working with when you first started at NACA and how that changed when you left in ’72.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not I. No, I didn’t.

[Assistant] Give me an idea of what sort of equipment you were working with when you first started at NACA and how that changed when you left in ’72.

[User] [Laughs] Well, when I was in the secretarial pool, I was assigned a desk next to a huge window. There were about four desks in one row, in four—you know, like that. My desk was made of metal with a center drop for the typewriter. Everybody else had manual typewriters.\n\n All of a sudden—I don’t know when they started, but I was the first one to be issued an IBM (International Business Machines) electric machine. That machine had the whatever they call the—it didn’t have this kind of printing. [Demonstrates] Now, let me see. Yes. Yes, it did. I forget what they call this kind of printing. The newspaper printing is different from what that is, because every time you made a mistake—if you had a capital M, and you wanted it to be an N, you had to know exactly how many backspaces you had to go. How many–one, two, three, four, five. Okay, cut that out. Then you’d hit N, and that would only take four, say. That’s executive type; I think that’s what they called the executive type.\n\n Anyway, I was issued this electric IBM machine, the first, and let me tell you, even with a felt pad this thick [demonstrates], with a typewriter on it, on a metal base, noisy. Boy, was it noisy. [Laughs] I felt sorry for everybody else, but Miss Wheeler issued that machine to me because I was typing all of the minutes of the meetings, the different meetings. So anyway, I was the first one to get that IBM machine. I thought, “Oh, boy.”

[Assistant] What other equipment did you have besides that?

[User] That’s all. That and a telephone—no, I didn’t even have a telephone. Did I? I don’t remember a telephone.

[Assistant] Did that change at all over the years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s all. That and a telephone—no, I didn’t even have a telephone. Did I? I don’t remember a telephone.

[Assistant] Did that change at all over the years?

[User] Oh, sure, you know. I don’t remember that. That I don’t remember—telephone? Well, when you had your own office, then you got your telephone, but I never had my own office at NACA. We were always in a group.

[Assistant] Was it common for most people to have telephones when you first started?

[User] The engineers had telephones on their desk, and if they needed us, they’d buzz. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So did you have some box on your desk so you knew when you were needed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure, you know. I don’t remember that. That I don’t remember—telephone? Well, when you had your own office, then you got your telephone, but I never had my own office at NACA. We were always in a group.

[Assistant] Was it common for most people to have telephones when you first started?

[User] The engineers had telephones on their desk, and if they needed us, they’d buzz. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So did you have some box on your desk so you knew when you were needed?

[User] No, no. No room for it, because when you had the typewriter here and then a little bit here for the drawers, and over here. [Demonstrates]

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were typing minutes from the meetings. Did you get to attend those meetings and take notes in shorthand?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Only the engineer would attend the meetings. He would report on the progress of the whole meeting. Then he would dictate them to me. Do you want to know something?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] No, you can’t print this stuff. I can’t tell you that.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Cut it all.

[Assistant] So what sort of skills did you have to have to be a secretary? You mentioned that you had to have these skills when you came on board that not necessarily everyone had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, you can’t print this stuff. I can’t tell you that.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Cut it all.

[Assistant] So what sort of skills did you have to have to be a secretary? You mentioned that you had to have these skills when you came on board that not necessarily everyone had.

[User] Well, being a high school graduate, what other skills do you have? Either you’re good at typing and good at taking dictation. Other than that, you don’t have—you know, like colleges, you don’t have all this extra. I didn’t have that. I didn’t go to college. I’m just an ordinary high school kid. The only course I took was the commercial course, which included typing, stenography, bookkeeping; duties that required office work.

[Assistant] Did you learn shorthand?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cut it all.

[Assistant] So what sort of skills did you have to have to be a secretary? You mentioned that you had to have these skills when you came on board that not necessarily everyone had.

[User] Well, being a high school graduate, what other skills do you have? Either you’re good at typing and good at taking dictation. Other than that, you don’t have—you know, like colleges, you don’t have all this extra. I didn’t have that. I didn’t go to college. I’m just an ordinary high school kid. The only course I took was the commercial course, which included typing, stenography, bookkeeping; duties that required office work.

[Assistant] Did you learn shorthand?

[User] Oh yes. I was good at both shorthand and typing. I was playing basketball at one of the places downtown, and, of course, you know how many girls are on a basketball team. You know, five on each side, right? Well, I was under the basket with a bunch of other girls, and we were all trying to get the ball. I guess I jumped the highest since the ball came down and hit my finger, breaking the first joint. You see this? Well, that’s the way it is.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I was good at both shorthand and typing. I was playing basketball at one of the places downtown, and, of course, you know how many girls are on a basketball team. You know, five on each side, right? Well, I was under the basket with a bunch of other girls, and we were all trying to get the ball. I guess I jumped the highest since the ball came down and hit my finger, breaking the first joint. You see this? Well, that’s the way it is.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] The basketball did that.

[Assistant] Ouch.

[User] Broke this connection here, from this—the end of this bone hit the end of this bone, and the chip is sitting up there, [demonstrates] and they couldn’t do anything about it. So here I am. After a week I go to the doctor, who said, “You have a chip there, but I can’t do any—.” What happens, if you let it go too long, the fluid hardens in between the broken chip, the chip there, and the connection to the bone. The doctor didn’t do anything but give me a splint. So here I am with a splint on my finger like this [demonstrates], straight as could be, and I’m typing the minutes of the meetings on this electric typewriter, with this splint. And it’s been that way since. It healed, but it’s crooked. Not like that.

[Assistant] There’s quite a large difference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The basketball did that.

[Assistant] Ouch.

[User] Broke this connection here, from this—the end of this bone hit the end of this bone, and the chip is sitting up there, [demonstrates] and they couldn’t do anything about it. So here I am. After a week I go to the doctor, who said, “You have a chip there, but I can’t do any—.” What happens, if you let it go too long, the fluid hardens in between the broken chip, the chip there, and the connection to the bone. The doctor didn’t do anything but give me a splint. So here I am with a splint on my finger like this [demonstrates], straight as could be, and I’m typing the minutes of the meetings on this electric typewriter, with this splint. And it’s been that way since. It healed, but it’s crooked. Not like that.

[Assistant] There’s quite a large difference.

[User] You’re darn tootin’. But they said, “What are you doing, typing with a splint on your finger?” With an electric typewriter you don’t have to do this [demonstrates], you just touch. Well, you know that.

[Assistant] Much easier than a manual, where you have to really—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re darn tootin’. But they said, “What are you doing, typing with a splint on your finger?” With an electric typewriter you don’t have to do this [demonstrates], you just touch. Well, you know that.

[Assistant] Much easier than a manual, where you have to really—

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] —type hard.

[User] Yes, right. You didn’t have to do that, see?

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of national secretarial organizations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] —type hard.

[User] Yes, right. You didn’t have to do that, see?

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of national secretarial organizations?

[User] No, I never joined anything.

[Assistant] Do you recall, was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right. You didn’t have to do that, see?

[Assistant] Did you belong to any sort of national secretarial organizations?

[User] No, I never joined anything.

[Assistant] Do you recall, was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories that you recall?

[User] What was the question?

[Assistant] Was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories while you were working in Headquarters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never joined anything.

[Assistant] Do you recall, was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories that you recall?

[User] What was the question?

[Assistant] Was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories while you were working in Headquarters?

[User] What kind of competition are you talking about?

[Assistant] Any sort of competition. Competition in research or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What was the question?

[Assistant] Was there any sort of competition between the NACA Laboratories while you were working in Headquarters?

[User] What kind of competition are you talking about?

[Assistant] Any sort of competition. Competition in research or—

[User] The research end, that’s out of the secretary’s mind. All they do is do what the boss tells you to do, so I don’t know that.

[Assistant] Let’s see here. Did you have a sense of what NACA’s relationship was like with the various administrations while you were working as a secretary for NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What kind of competition are you talking about?

[Assistant] Any sort of competition. Competition in research or—

[User] The research end, that’s out of the secretary’s mind. All they do is do what the boss tells you to do, so I don’t know that.

[Assistant] Let’s see here. Did you have a sense of what NACA’s relationship was like with the various administrations while you were working as a secretary for NACA?

[User] Well, there were a lot of things that went on up on the Hill, but I never went up on the Hill to hear. Even in the budget hearings, we were not allowed to attend.

[Assistant] What impact do you think Sputnik had on NACA? Or what are your memories of that time at NACA?