[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I probably would have gone into business with my dad.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Okay. But you got a taste of teaching and you liked it?

[User] Yeah. It gave me more independence than I knew. Being in business with my dad in a small town, I wouldn't be that independent.

[Assistant] Yeah, right. Yeah.

[User] So I liked that part of it.

[Assistant] Would you recommend Peace Corps to young people today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It gave me more independence than I knew. Being in business with my dad in a small town, I wouldn't be that independent.

[Assistant] Yeah, right. Yeah.

[User] So I liked that part of it.

[Assistant] Would you recommend Peace Corps to young people today?

[User] Yes, I would. I really would. It, uh, it really turned things around for me. I discovered a career because of it. I was successful at that career, and just really, really enjoyed meeting the people that I did in Honduras. And they're still friends today. So, you know, it can't get much better than that, you know.

[Assistant] It's a very happy story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I liked that part of it.

[Assistant] Would you recommend Peace Corps to young people today?

[User] Yes, I would. I really would. It, uh, it really turned things around for me. I discovered a career because of it. I was successful at that career, and just really, really enjoyed meeting the people that I did in Honduras. And they're still friends today. So, you know, it can't get much better than that, you know.

[Assistant] It's a very happy story.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I would. I really would. It, uh, it really turned things around for me. I discovered a career because of it. I was successful at that career, and just really, really enjoyed meeting the people that I did in Honduras. And they're still friends today. So, you know, it can't get much better than that, you know.

[Assistant] It's a very happy story.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say?

[User] Hmm. Not really, no.

[Assistant] Okay. Thank you very much. It's been a very interesting interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These were Peace Corps nurses that we had. They came and visited a lot of our sites and they did come and visit me, which was fun. I did have a visit, I believe, once from my APCD, Francisco Garces, who I love, who was our forestry APCD, who is just an inspiration and a really wonderful guy, but I was very isolated so. And I think in a lot of other volunteers maybe had more visits from Francisco based on his travel patterns. But he did visit me once and I was able to show him my work and some of the communities where I worked, and that was really great. But in general, I mostly interacted with Peace Corps staff when I came into the capital for really normally for medical issues, for either shots or issues that I was having. Or, you know, we had a mid-term conference and our COS conference where we were required to essentially go back to the Quito area. So that was mostly when I interacted with employees of Peace Corps. But you know, in general, I probably had less interaction with them and more interaction with my host agency folks. But we also, we didn't have a phone in my neighborhood, in my town. The nearest phone was a five hour bus ride. So I mean, even if I could have went and called someone and asked for advice, I mean, it was difficult to do so.

[Assistant] Five hours for a phone?

[User] Five hours for a phone, five hours for money, five hours for a lot of, you know, for a lot of food really that you couldn't get in my little town. You know, you'd bulk up on, you know, peanut butter and tuna and things five hours away. And that was, you know, that was my nearest phone to call my family as well.

[Assistant] Has that changed now or do you know or? Do they have cell phones?

[User] I don't know. I think, I know that they, I heard that they had paved and improved the road going to my town. So I'm sure that that's changed things quite a bit.

[Assistant] As far as you know, they still don't have electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five hours for a phone, five hours for money, five hours for a lot of, you know, for a lot of food really that you couldn't get in my little town. You know, you'd bulk up on, you know, peanut butter and tuna and things five hours away. And that was, you know, that was my nearest phone to call my family as well.

[Assistant] Has that changed now or do you know or? Do they have cell phones?

[User] I don't know. I think, I know that they, I heard that they had paved and improved the road going to my town. So I'm sure that that's changed things quite a bit.

[Assistant] As far as you know, they still don't have electricity?

[User] They do have, I think, electricity now. It started, they started building the infrastructure right at the end of my service but were having a very hard time with it because they were using hydropower and had a tremendous amount of energy, and not enough places to send the energy, because there weren't that many people living in the area. And we lived next to this Rio San Juan, which was a raging river that separates Colombia and Ecuador. And so my understanding is that they do have electricity now, but I think they still, you know, it's not, it kind of comes and goes, because I think they've been having trouble with the system. But yeah, and I'm sure it's changed quite a bit, actually. And that's why I'm very curious and I'm also kind of trepidatious about returning and seeing how things have changed. But I know that they still don't have.

[Assistant] What do you think it would take to get you back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I think, I know that they, I heard that they had paved and improved the road going to my town. So I'm sure that that's changed things quite a bit.

[Assistant] As far as you know, they still don't have electricity?

[User] They do have, I think, electricity now. It started, they started building the infrastructure right at the end of my service but were having a very hard time with it because they were using hydropower and had a tremendous amount of energy, and not enough places to send the energy, because there weren't that many people living in the area. And we lived next to this Rio San Juan, which was a raging river that separates Colombia and Ecuador. And so my understanding is that they do have electricity now, but I think they still, you know, it's not, it kind of comes and goes, because I think they've been having trouble with the system. But yeah, and I'm sure it's changed quite a bit, actually. And that's why I'm very curious and I'm also kind of trepidatious about returning and seeing how things have changed. But I know that they still don't have.

[Assistant] What do you think it would take to get you back?

[User] Oh gosh, a break in my work schedule probably. And a little bit of money. But no, I would really love to go back and I am planning to go back fairly soon. But I know that they still don't have phones. I know that they still, my friends at least who call me still have to go to the capital five hours away to call me. But, you know, I mean, that's calling the U.S. but.

[Assistant] If it's anything like my experience, you know, they didn't tell me at the time that they valued me and I didn't know if it was worthwhile. But when I did go back, they really laid it on. So I think that the same will probably happen to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They do have, I think, electricity now. It started, they started building the infrastructure right at the end of my service but were having a very hard time with it because they were using hydropower and had a tremendous amount of energy, and not enough places to send the energy, because there weren't that many people living in the area. And we lived next to this Rio San Juan, which was a raging river that separates Colombia and Ecuador. And so my understanding is that they do have electricity now, but I think they still, you know, it's not, it kind of comes and goes, because I think they've been having trouble with the system. But yeah, and I'm sure it's changed quite a bit, actually. And that's why I'm very curious and I'm also kind of trepidatious about returning and seeing how things have changed. But I know that they still don't have.

[Assistant] What do you think it would take to get you back?

[User] Oh gosh, a break in my work schedule probably. And a little bit of money. But no, I would really love to go back and I am planning to go back fairly soon. But I know that they still don't have phones. I know that they still, my friends at least who call me still have to go to the capital five hours away to call me. But, you know, I mean, that's calling the U.S. but.

[Assistant] If it's anything like my experience, you know, they didn't tell me at the time that they valued me and I didn't know if it was worthwhile. But when I did go back, they really laid it on. So I think that the same will probably happen to you.

[User] Yeah. It would be fun to go back now too because I've been gone for about 10 years.

[Assistant] Ten years, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gosh, a break in my work schedule probably. And a little bit of money. But no, I would really love to go back and I am planning to go back fairly soon. But I know that they still don't have phones. I know that they still, my friends at least who call me still have to go to the capital five hours away to call me. But, you know, I mean, that's calling the U.S. but.

[Assistant] If it's anything like my experience, you know, they didn't tell me at the time that they valued me and I didn't know if it was worthwhile. But when I did go back, they really laid it on. So I think that the same will probably happen to you.

[User] Yeah. It would be fun to go back now too because I've been gone for about 10 years.

[Assistant] Ten years, yeah.

[User] So to go back and see how things have changed. And I have heard little stories about, you know, some of the kids I used to teach getting married and having, you know, different lives of their own now. So it'd be really fun to go back and see everyone. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK, well I think that's pretty much it unless there's anything else you want to say. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It would be fun to go back now too because I've been gone for about 10 years.

[Assistant] Ten years, yeah.

[User] So to go back and see how things have changed. And I have heard little stories about, you know, some of the kids I used to teach getting married and having, you know, different lives of their own now. So it'd be really fun to go back and see everyone. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK, well I think that's pretty much it unless there's anything else you want to say. [tape break]

[User] And you know and hope that more people join and that we keep it going.

[Assistant] Well, thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't need to talk to, in that direction.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Today is December 9th, 2019. This is Randolph Adams, and I'm interviewing Mary Quattro, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Malaysia from August 1968 to November 1970. She worked in secondary education. Morning, Mary. How are you doing today?

[User] I'm well, thank you.

[Assistant] We're going to start off the interview just by talking a little about what your life was like before joining the Peace Corps, childhood, education. Any experiences that are relevant to maybe having influenced you to become a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Today is December 9th, 2019. This is Randolph Adams, and I'm interviewing Mary Quattro, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Malaysia from August 1968 to November 1970. She worked in secondary education. Morning, Mary. How are you doing today?

[User] I'm well, thank you.

[Assistant] We're going to start off the interview just by talking a little about what your life was like before joining the Peace Corps, childhood, education. Any experiences that are relevant to maybe having influenced you to become a volunteer?

[User]
Okay. Um, I grew up in a little town in Davis, called Davis, West Virginia. It was a coal town, um, mostly made up of at that time, uh, immigrants from Italy and Poland. And, uh, so I didn't hear much of a West Virginia accent. I heard European accents. Uh, my, uh, father was first generation, and my grandmother and her and my granddad were, had come over and started a family here. Um, I think one of the things originally that, uh, I heard about, uh. Uh, it was a very small town, so we didn't have a lot of, of outside influence. But I always understood that about a broader world and wanted to be able to see that.

And one of the first things that I wanted to do was when I went on to college, and I was the, the first in my family to actually get a college degree. But when I went on to college, I had heard about, um, VISTA volunteers, uh, which were in the Appalachian regions, most of them. And I wanted to do that, but I wasn't accepted into, uh, VISTA volunteers, and I was, not until later anyway. At first I wasn't accepted there, and I was really upset about that. And Peace Corps had just been, I think Peace Corps was in the early, about '64 started?

[Assistant] '61 announced and '62 started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Started, yeah. So I was concerned that it would be gone by the time I was old enough to, you know, time I got out of college. So I was very hopeful that that would be a possibility for me, to go to the Peace Corps. Um, I liked the whole idea of, of having it, like, you know, of course, John Kennedy was an inspiration to everyone.

Um, but my family was not excited about me leaving, so, um, I didn't tell them about it until, I didn't tell them I had taken the test. I didn't tell them that I'd been accepted until it was getting down to the wire, and I needed to do things like, um, get my shots and get my, uh, tickets and get ready to, to leave. Um, I think they were just afraid for me, and they didn't want me to go. Um, my mother had lived all her life within 20 miles of where she was born, as had my dad. So it was, uh, it was a daunting prospect. We might need to stop just a second.

[Assistant] Let's just go back a step. Uh, where did you go to college?

[User] I went to, um, undergraduate. I did my undergraduate work at Shepherd College in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. It's now Shepherd University. And I later did graduate work at University of Virginia.

[Assistant] In?

[User] Charlottesville.

[Assistant] In education or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to, um, undergraduate. I did my undergraduate work at Shepherd College in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. It's now Shepherd University. And I later did graduate work at University of Virginia.

[Assistant] In?

[User] Charlottesville.

[Assistant] In education or?

[User] Yes, in education. In guidance and education. Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, continue talking about your, your family. What happened after you finally told them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Charlottesville.

[Assistant] In education or?

[User] Yes, in education. In guidance and education. Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, continue talking about your, your family. What happened after you finally told them?

[User]
My dad was really opposed to it. He, he did not, didn't want me to go, but I was adamant. So I was gone. So they, they eventually, I think, you know, did what they could do to help, help me, you know, in terms of getting the medical things approved and all that. But it was, I think it was a big stretch for them to have me go.

Um, so I left out of a little tiny airport in Elkins, West Virginia. Had got on like a little honest to God prop plane almost, and flew up to, uh, Pittsburgh airport and left out of, out of Pittsburgh. And my dad took me over to the airport. But he was, he was very sad to do that. Um. So I, and that was the first time I'd ever flown. So I flew from, uh, from Pittsburgh to, out to California. And I was in the group called, uh, Group 20, Malaysia 20. And most of the, of that group were, uh, education and, uh, some rural, uh, rural health projects.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in education. In guidance and education. Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, continue talking about your, your family. What happened after you finally told them?

[User]
My dad was really opposed to it. He, he did not, didn't want me to go, but I was adamant. So I was gone. So they, they eventually, I think, you know, did what they could do to help, help me, you know, in terms of getting the medical things approved and all that. But it was, I think it was a big stretch for them to have me go.

Um, so I left out of a little tiny airport in Elkins, West Virginia. Had got on like a little honest to God prop plane almost, and flew up to, uh, Pittsburgh airport and left out of, out of Pittsburgh. And my dad took me over to the airport. But he was, he was very sad to do that. Um. So I, and that was the first time I'd ever flown. So I flew from, uh, from Pittsburgh to, out to California. And I was in the group called, uh, Group 20, Malaysia 20. And most of the, of that group were, uh, education and, uh, some rural, uh, rural health projects.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?

[User] I did. I had, uh, there were six, six of us. Uh, two older sisters. And then, um, I was the middle kid. Um.

[Assistant] So how did they react to you leaving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
My dad was really opposed to it. He, he did not, didn't want me to go, but I was adamant. So I was gone. So they, they eventually, I think, you know, did what they could do to help, help me, you know, in terms of getting the medical things approved and all that. But it was, I think it was a big stretch for them to have me go.

Um, so I left out of a little tiny airport in Elkins, West Virginia. Had got on like a little honest to God prop plane almost, and flew up to, uh, Pittsburgh airport and left out of, out of Pittsburgh. And my dad took me over to the airport. But he was, he was very sad to do that. Um. So I, and that was the first time I'd ever flown. So I flew from, uh, from Pittsburgh to, out to California. And I was in the group called, uh, Group 20, Malaysia 20. And most of the, of that group were, uh, education and, uh, some rural, uh, rural health projects.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?

[User] I did. I had, uh, there were six, six of us. Uh, two older sisters. And then, um, I was the middle kid. Um.

[Assistant] So how did they react to you leaving?

[User] I, I think, uh, my sisters, they were fine with it actually. My youngest sister, Bec, was just a kid. She was just young. And the funny part was, when I came back, I was like, I felt like I'd been gone forever. And she, she was, like, on the edge of being a teenager. When I came back, she was just kind of grown person. Um, what happened to these people? Now I think they were, my siblings were pretty supportive, but, but I just think my parents were more afraid than anything else.

[Assistant] So why did you join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I had, uh, there were six, six of us. Uh, two older sisters. And then, um, I was the middle kid. Um.

[Assistant] So how did they react to you leaving?

[User] I, I think, uh, my sisters, they were fine with it actually. My youngest sister, Bec, was just a kid. She was just young. And the funny part was, when I came back, I was like, I felt like I'd been gone forever. And she, she was, like, on the edge of being a teenager. When I came back, she was just kind of grown person. Um, what happened to these people? Now I think they were, my siblings were pretty supportive, but, but I just think my parents were more afraid than anything else.

[Assistant] So why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] I, part of it was to be able to travel, but I think the other part was to be able to, to serve in a way. My dad always talked about doing service. Uh, his idea of doing service, though, was what he called for this family. It was always, you know, you took care of your own family. Uh, but there was a real, uh, um, strong emphasis on emphasis on that. And he, uh, you know, we, we heard that growing up, and we did that and all my, all my siblings have been very, very active, uh, in their personal life, active socially, and doing been politically. So I think we learned it well.

[Assistant] Um, how did you hear about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I think, uh, my sisters, they were fine with it actually. My youngest sister, Bec, was just a kid. She was just young. And the funny part was, when I came back, I was like, I felt like I'd been gone forever. And she, she was, like, on the edge of being a teenager. When I came back, she was just kind of grown person. Um, what happened to these people? Now I think they were, my siblings were pretty supportive, but, but I just think my parents were more afraid than anything else.

[Assistant] So why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] I, part of it was to be able to travel, but I think the other part was to be able to, to serve in a way. My dad always talked about doing service. Uh, his idea of doing service, though, was what he called for this family. It was always, you know, you took care of your own family. Uh, but there was a real, uh, um, strong emphasis on emphasis on that. And he, uh, you know, we, we heard that growing up, and we did that and all my, all my siblings have been very, very active, uh, in their personal life, active socially, and doing been politically. So I think we learned it well.

[Assistant] Um, how did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] You know, I'm not sure. I'm sure. Maybe some guidance counselor somewhere along the way told me, but somehow I had heard. Well, I mean, I certainly knew about it from the news about being founded, but, uh. And, you know, once I was familiar with the Appalachian volunteers and VISTA volunteers. So I think it just was a something I'd heard about over growing up.

[Assistant] And when you tried to get into VISTA, was that for education also or what was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, part of it was to be able to travel, but I think the other part was to be able to, to serve in a way. My dad always talked about doing service. Uh, his idea of doing service, though, was what he called for this family. It was always, you know, you took care of your own family. Uh, but there was a real, uh, um, strong emphasis on emphasis on that. And he, uh, you know, we, we heard that growing up, and we did that and all my, all my siblings have been very, very active, uh, in their personal life, active socially, and doing been politically. So I think we learned it well.

[Assistant] Um, how did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] You know, I'm not sure. I'm sure. Maybe some guidance counselor somewhere along the way told me, but somehow I had heard. Well, I mean, I certainly knew about it from the news about being founded, but, uh. And, you know, once I was familiar with the Appalachian volunteers and VISTA volunteers. So I think it just was a something I'd heard about over growing up.

[Assistant] And when you tried to get into VISTA, was that for education also or what was?

[User] Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I was going in education. I, you know, the part about that is I think that later on I was accepted, initially I wasn't, was not, but some of that might have been just because I wasn't finished with school when I applied.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, the application process you had to go through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'm not sure. I'm sure. Maybe some guidance counselor somewhere along the way told me, but somehow I had heard. Well, I mean, I certainly knew about it from the news about being founded, but, uh. And, you know, once I was familiar with the Appalachian volunteers and VISTA volunteers. So I think it just was a something I'd heard about over growing up.

[Assistant] And when you tried to get into VISTA, was that for education also or what was?

[User] Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I was going in education. I, you know, the part about that is I think that later on I was accepted, initially I wasn't, was not, but some of that might have been just because I wasn't finished with school when I applied.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, the application process you had to go through?

[User] Not much, because I was, I did it. I mean, I took, you know, there were tests and things, and I think we were able to take the test at, at Shepherd. Uh, I honestly don't recall a whole lot of that because I just, I just knew I was applying and taking, you know, doing what I needed to do and trying to make sure that, that my parents weren't going to stop it in the process because they, I didn't tell them about it.

[Assistant] Um, did you have a specific country in mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I was going in education. I, you know, the part about that is I think that later on I was accepted, initially I wasn't, was not, but some of that might have been just because I wasn't finished with school when I applied.

[Assistant] Do you remember, um, the application process you had to go through?

[User] Not much, because I was, I did it. I mean, I took, you know, there were tests and things, and I think we were able to take the test at, at Shepherd. Uh, I honestly don't recall a whole lot of that because I just, I just knew I was applying and taking, you know, doing what I needed to do and trying to make sure that, that my parents weren't going to stop it in the process because they, I didn't tell them about it.

[Assistant] Um, did you have a specific country in mind?

[User] I did. I was hoping to, uh, to go. I didn't want, I didn't ask for Malaysia. I was hoping to go somewhere like Thailand or something like that. That seemed more exotic to me, but, uh, I ended up being selected for Malaysia and it turned out to be a good thing.

[Assistant] And obviously you were interested in the education program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much, because I was, I did it. I mean, I took, you know, there were tests and things, and I think we were able to take the test at, at Shepherd. Uh, I honestly don't recall a whole lot of that because I just, I just knew I was applying and taking, you know, doing what I needed to do and trying to make sure that, that my parents weren't going to stop it in the process because they, I didn't tell them about it.

[Assistant] Um, did you have a specific country in mind?

[User] I did. I was hoping to, uh, to go. I didn't want, I didn't ask for Malaysia. I was hoping to go somewhere like Thailand or something like that. That seemed more exotic to me, but, uh, I ended up being selected for Malaysia and it turned out to be a good thing.

[Assistant] And obviously you were interested in the education program.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I was hoping to, uh, to go. I didn't want, I didn't ask for Malaysia. I was hoping to go somewhere like Thailand or something like that. That seemed more exotic to me, but, uh, I ended up being selected for Malaysia and it turned out to be a good thing.

[Assistant] And obviously you were interested in the education program.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was, I was happy about it. I was like, but then, oh, I guess I'll have to, guess I'll have to let the rest of the crowd in on this one now. So I waited a few, few weeks.

[Assistant] Do you have time to prepare? How quickly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was, I was happy about it. I was like, but then, oh, I guess I'll have to, guess I'll have to let the rest of the crowd in on this one now. So I waited a few, few weeks.

[Assistant] Do you have time to prepare? How quickly?

[User] Yeah, I did because I, you know, I, it was, it was like late August or September. So I mean, I was out of school by, I'd graduated by like May. So yes, I had the months to do that.

[Assistant] Remember what you did? Did you look up where Malaysia was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, I was happy about it. I was like, but then, oh, I guess I'll have to, guess I'll have to let the rest of the crowd in on this one now. So I waited a few, few weeks.

[Assistant] Do you have time to prepare? How quickly?

[User] Yeah, I did because I, you know, I, it was, it was like late August or September. So I mean, I was out of school by, I'd graduated by like May. So yes, I had the months to do that.

[Assistant] Remember what you did? Did you look up where Malaysia was?

[User] I did. Looked up where it was and, and just, you know, just trying to go through the process of knowing what medical things I needed to do. And, um. I just remember just the time, just going quickly, it seemed to me. But I was ready to go. I was anxious to go. Um.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little about training. Um, you mentioned, um, before we started the interview that you trained in Hawaii.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I did because I, you know, I, it was, it was like late August or September. So I mean, I was out of school by, I'd graduated by like May. So yes, I had the months to do that.

[Assistant] Remember what you did? Did you look up where Malaysia was?

[User] I did. Looked up where it was and, and just, you know, just trying to go through the process of knowing what medical things I needed to do. And, um. I just remember just the time, just going quickly, it seemed to me. But I was ready to go. I was anxious to go. Um.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little about training. Um, you mentioned, um, before we started the interview that you trained in Hawaii.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Looked up where it was and, and just, you know, just trying to go through the process of knowing what medical things I needed to do. And, um. I just remember just the time, just going quickly, it seemed to me. But I was ready to go. I was anxious to go. Um.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little about training. Um, you mentioned, um, before we started the interview that you trained in Hawaii.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that like?

[User] Wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful. That was one, we were, I think, either the last or the next to last group to train, uh, in country, uh, for Malaysia. Uh, later on, everybody went directly in country to, to train. But we were, uh, were there for three months. Uh, we lived in, uh, there were two or three training groups. We, our group was the smaller one. Um, and we had, uh, Malaysia cikgus, teachers, who came to Hawaii to, uh, teach us. Uh, there were in my group only two, two women, uh, and there was one married, one married woman and two single women. The rest were, were male trainees. So we had a smaller group.

[Assistant] The other groups were also for Malaysia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What was that like?

[User] Wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful. That was one, we were, I think, either the last or the next to last group to train, uh, in country, uh, for Malaysia. Uh, later on, everybody went directly in country to, to train. But we were, uh, were there for three months. Uh, we lived in, uh, there were two or three training groups. We, our group was the smaller one. Um, and we had, uh, Malaysia cikgus, teachers, who came to Hawaii to, uh, teach us. Uh, there were in my group only two, two women, uh, and there was one married, one married woman and two single women. The rest were, were male trainees. So we had a smaller group.

[Assistant] The other groups were also for Malaysia?

[User] They were going to Malaysia, but they were going to West Malaysia. We didn't know that at the time, but that's what it turned out to be, that a lot of our group went to East Malaysia, to the island of Borneo.

[Assistant] What did training cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful. That was one, we were, I think, either the last or the next to last group to train, uh, in country, uh, for Malaysia. Uh, later on, everybody went directly in country to, to train. But we were, uh, were there for three months. Uh, we lived in, uh, there were two or three training groups. We, our group was the smaller one. Um, and we had, uh, Malaysia cikgus, teachers, who came to Hawaii to, uh, teach us. Uh, there were in my group only two, two women, uh, and there was one married, one married woman and two single women. The rest were, were male trainees. So we had a smaller group.

[Assistant] The other groups were also for Malaysia?

[User] They were going to Malaysia, but they were going to West Malaysia. We didn't know that at the time, but that's what it turned out to be, that a lot of our group went to East Malaysia, to the island of Borneo.

[Assistant] What did training cover?

[User] Uh, mostly language. Uh. You know, we did some, uh, we learned some things about the schools. Um. But it was mostly just intensive language.

[Assistant] Do you recall, were all of you, um, previous teachers or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were going to Malaysia, but they were going to West Malaysia. We didn't know that at the time, but that's what it turned out to be, that a lot of our group went to East Malaysia, to the island of Borneo.

[Assistant] What did training cover?

[User] Uh, mostly language. Uh. You know, we did some, uh, we learned some things about the schools. Um. But it was mostly just intensive language.

[Assistant] Do you recall, were all of you, um, previous teachers or?

[User] Um. Well, a lot of us were newbies. I mean, we were just out of college, a lot of us. So there were a couple men who, who were older and had done some, uh, I mean, had worked as engineers or other kinds of things. But most of us were, were young, fairly young, fairly inexperienced.

[Assistant] So you didn't really get any technical training in terms of teaching techniques or things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, mostly language. Uh. You know, we did some, uh, we learned some things about the schools. Um. But it was mostly just intensive language.

[Assistant] Do you recall, were all of you, um, previous teachers or?

[User] Um. Well, a lot of us were newbies. I mean, we were just out of college, a lot of us. So there were a couple men who, who were older and had done some, uh, I mean, had worked as engineers or other kinds of things. But most of us were, were young, fairly young, fairly inexperienced.

[Assistant] So you didn't really get any technical training in terms of teaching techniques or things like that?

[User] Some. I mean, that's what I was saying. I think that it depends on if you were going to a secondary school or to, a couple of people taught in the, the, uh, it wasn't really a college level, but it was, it was in a sense college level classes. And so there were different training courses for that. And so we got a little bit of an idea. I mean, it was based on the English method of the, because Malaysia had been a British protectorate and a British colony for 100 years. And so the method of teaching was similar, something that we could relate to.

[Assistant] And what about the language? What language were you being trained in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Um. In retrospect, were there aspects of training you wish you had had?

[User] No, I felt pretty well prepared. I thought it was good. I thought they were, uh, they worked pretty closely with Malaysian government trying to learn, you know what they needed. Uh, so I think, I think, uh, as far as the training itself was concerned. Now, placements were a little bit different question, I think. And that should have been done better. But uh, the training overall was, I think was suitable for the areas. Again, we, you know, Malaysia is the island of Borneo and then the, the West Malaysia, which is very much a different kind of atmosphere.

[Assistant] One last thing about the training. What about the cultural aspects? Were they, uh, sessions presented by Americans or Malaysians or?

[User]
Both. Uh, some of the, the instructors and some of the people who worked in country already, uh, came to provide training. Another thing about, about that was that Malaysia at that time, as it is now, very much an Islamic country after the revolution, after the Iranian revolution. When we went there, it was, it was not. I mean, they were, they were uh, uh, Muslim, but they were not strict Muslim. I mean, they weren't Muslim, fundamentalist Muslim in the way they are now, like they did not wear the, didn't cover their heads. In fact, most of the Malay women wore beautiful saris. And, you know, over at the time after we left and after the Iranian revolution, then they started taking on the, the hijab and all that. They didn't do that when we were there.

So it was a different, it was a very interesting time because Malaysia itself didn't know what it was doing. I mean, didn't know what it was becoming. And it, it became more and more an Islamic country. But at that, up to that point that its influence was really much more British.

[Assistant] You said after the revolution. What?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I felt pretty well prepared. I thought it was good. I thought they were, uh, they worked pretty closely with Malaysian government trying to learn, you know what they needed. Uh, so I think, I think, uh, as far as the training itself was concerned. Now, placements were a little bit different question, I think. And that should have been done better. But uh, the training overall was, I think was suitable for the areas. Again, we, you know, Malaysia is the island of Borneo and then the, the West Malaysia, which is very much a different kind of atmosphere.

[Assistant] One last thing about the training. What about the cultural aspects? Were they, uh, sessions presented by Americans or Malaysians or?

[User]
Both. Uh, some of the, the instructors and some of the people who worked in country already, uh, came to provide training. Another thing about, about that was that Malaysia at that time, as it is now, very much an Islamic country after the revolution, after the Iranian revolution. When we went there, it was, it was not. I mean, they were, they were uh, uh, Muslim, but they were not strict Muslim. I mean, they weren't Muslim, fundamentalist Muslim in the way they are now, like they did not wear the, didn't cover their heads. In fact, most of the Malay women wore beautiful saris. And, you know, over at the time after we left and after the Iranian revolution, then they started taking on the, the hijab and all that. They didn't do that when we were there.

So it was a different, it was a very interesting time because Malaysia itself didn't know what it was doing. I mean, didn't know what it was becoming. And it, it became more and more an Islamic country. But at that, up to that point that its influence was really much more British.

[Assistant] You said after the revolution. What?

[User] The Iranian, after the Iranian.

[Assistant] The Iranian revolution. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Both. Uh, some of the, the instructors and some of the people who worked in country already, uh, came to provide training. Another thing about, about that was that Malaysia at that time, as it is now, very much an Islamic country after the revolution, after the Iranian revolution. When we went there, it was, it was not. I mean, they were, they were uh, uh, Muslim, but they were not strict Muslim. I mean, they weren't Muslim, fundamentalist Muslim in the way they are now, like they did not wear the, didn't cover their heads. In fact, most of the Malay women wore beautiful saris. And, you know, over at the time after we left and after the Iranian revolution, then they started taking on the, the hijab and all that. They didn't do that when we were there.

So it was a different, it was a very interesting time because Malaysia itself didn't know what it was doing. I mean, didn't know what it was becoming. And it, it became more and more an Islamic country. But at that, up to that point that its influence was really much more British.

[Assistant] You said after the revolution. What?

[User] The Iranian, after the Iranian.

[Assistant] The Iranian revolution. Okay.

[User] And then all that spread. I mean, all the whole idea of a more fundamentalist approach to Islam. Because in Malaysia, even though they were Muslim, they had for, for hundreds of years been under British rule and then their own rule. But the Chinese and the Malays were not, obviously not Muslim. I mean, you had changes like in Philippines or in, in some of the other countries making an influence on Malaysia.

[Assistant] Interesting. Um, what about the trainees? Were any asked to leave during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Iranian, after the Iranian.

[Assistant] The Iranian revolution. Okay.

[User] And then all that spread. I mean, all the whole idea of a more fundamentalist approach to Islam. Because in Malaysia, even though they were Muslim, they had for, for hundreds of years been under British rule and then their own rule. But the Chinese and the Malays were not, obviously not Muslim. I mean, you had changes like in Philippines or in, in some of the other countries making an influence on Malaysia.

[Assistant] Interesting. Um, what about the trainees? Were any asked to leave during training?

[User] A couple. Um, we had some who, you know, Vietnam was still on. Some got drafted.

[Assistant] Right out of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then all that spread. I mean, all the whole idea of a more fundamentalist approach to Islam. Because in Malaysia, even though they were Muslim, they had for, for hundreds of years been under British rule and then their own rule. But the Chinese and the Malays were not, obviously not Muslim. I mean, you had changes like in Philippines or in, in some of the other countries making an influence on Malaysia.

[Assistant] Interesting. Um, what about the trainees? Were any asked to leave during training?

[User] A couple. Um, we had some who, you know, Vietnam was still on. Some got drafted.

[Assistant] Right out of training?

[User] Right out of training. I, we, none of us ever got quite over that. That, you know, here we were Peace Corps volunteers and we had at least two that I can recall, maybe more, who were drafted and had to go home.

[Assistant] Did any decide to leave on their own because, for whatever reason, they said it wasn't probably had something they had to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple. Um, we had some who, you know, Vietnam was still on. Some got drafted.

[Assistant] Right out of training?

[User] Right out of training. I, we, none of us ever got quite over that. That, you know, here we were Peace Corps volunteers and we had at least two that I can recall, maybe more, who were drafted and had to go home.

[Assistant] Did any decide to leave on their own because, for whatever reason, they said it wasn't probably had something they had to do?

[User] We had a couple. I, I mean, for whatever, you know, personal reasons, I don't think. There was a married couple that left, left early. They decided they didn't really want to stay. I, uh, for our group, not so many, though. I can't, I really don't recall other people just leaving on their own accord.

[Assistant] I know in your time period, there were, in other training centers like yours, they usually had psychologists and psychiatrists.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right out of training. I, we, none of us ever got quite over that. That, you know, here we were Peace Corps volunteers and we had at least two that I can recall, maybe more, who were drafted and had to go home.

[Assistant] Did any decide to leave on their own because, for whatever reason, they said it wasn't probably had something they had to do?

[User] We had a couple. I, I mean, for whatever, you know, personal reasons, I don't think. There was a married couple that left, left early. They decided they didn't really want to stay. I, uh, for our group, not so many, though. I can't, I really don't recall other people just leaving on their own accord.

[Assistant] I know in your time period, there were, in other training centers like yours, they usually had psychologists and psychiatrists.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you went through some of those assessments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a couple. I, I mean, for whatever, you know, personal reasons, I don't think. There was a married couple that left, left early. They decided they didn't really want to stay. I, uh, for our group, not so many, though. I can't, I really don't recall other people just leaving on their own accord.

[Assistant] I know in your time period, there were, in other training centers like yours, they usually had psychologists and psychiatrists.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you went through some of those assessments?

[User] We did. We had several, several assessments. Yeah. They came on site and were there with us for a couple of weeks, I guess.

[Assistant] Any reaction to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you went through some of those assessments?

[User] We did. We had several, several assessments. Yeah. They came on site and were there with us for a couple of weeks, I guess.

[Assistant] Any reaction to that?

[User] Some people got de-, I think there were some deselections based on that. That's what they would call it. You've been deselected. So. But not many.

[Assistant] What was the size of your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We had several, several assessments. Yeah. They came on site and were there with us for a couple of weeks, I guess.

[Assistant] Any reaction to that?

[User] Some people got de-, I think there were some deselections based on that. That's what they would call it. You've been deselected. So. But not many.

[Assistant] What was the size of your group?

[User] You know, I. Malaysia 20 was. I'm thinking we probably weren't more than, say, 35 to 40 at the most. Maybe not even that many. I'd say around that number. But there were different training groups going on at the time, depending on what part of the, the country you were in. And some were, some came in like even a couple, uh, a month after we had started. So that was a new another group, 21 or 22, you know. So there were several groups training.

[Assistant] And once you then went to Malaysia, how did that work? What was the country entry like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was, the jungle was, I was surrounded by the jungle. People would say to me, did you not see the snakes? I said, I didn't look at them. I didn't see any. They were there. I just didn't look at them. So I managed to spend almost two years not seeing snakes that were there. I just didn't want to see them.

[Assistant] Um, was this a small community or a small town?

[User] Yeah, the town itself was called Lundu town, Lundu bazaar. And it was, you know, shopkeepers, a lot of Chinese shopkeepers, um. The, the Malay, there were some Malays because they had a, uh, a mosque. They also had a little tiny church that an English priest had been there for, since birth I think, he was a very old man. And he had, he had like, uh, Girl Guides and Boy Scouts that he'd done forever. He was very British. Um, but, but it's, the center was the bazaar, and it wasn't huge. It wasn't big. But there was also a military post there. And then the school was, you know, some distance, a couple miles from the town, quote, town.

[Assistant] So was your area considered a suburb or a community of itself?

[User] It was just considered the school.

[Assistant] Just the school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the town itself was called Lundu town, Lundu bazaar. And it was, you know, shopkeepers, a lot of Chinese shopkeepers, um. The, the Malay, there were some Malays because they had a, uh, a mosque. They also had a little tiny church that an English priest had been there for, since birth I think, he was a very old man. And he had, he had like, uh, Girl Guides and Boy Scouts that he'd done forever. He was very British. Um, but, but it's, the center was the bazaar, and it wasn't huge. It wasn't big. But there was also a military post there. And then the school was, you know, some distance, a couple miles from the town, quote, town.

[Assistant] So was your area considered a suburb or a community of itself?

[User] It was just considered the school.

[Assistant] Just the school?

[User] Yeah. The kids, we had, the Chinese students came in every morning. Most of them lived in the bazaar, in the town. The other kids, the Iban and Malay kids, lived in there, on site. They lived at the school.

[Assistant] So were they walking from a great distance or transportation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just considered the school.

[Assistant] Just the school?

[User] Yeah. The kids, we had, the Chinese students came in every morning. Most of them lived in the bazaar, in the town. The other kids, the Iban and Malay kids, lived in there, on site. They lived at the school.

[Assistant] So were they walking from a great distance or transportation?

[User] No. There was no, there wasn't a bus or anything. They usually rode their bikes, and though it was like a mile, mile and a half at the most. It wasn't much.

[Assistant] What about your typical workday? How would you describe that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Who was, who was cooking the meals?

[User] Cook father. I had a guy who was cook father, he, he cooked for, uh, for everybody. I mean, he cooked for the kids, and then he cooked for us as well.

[Assistant] At night?

[User] Usually evening. Evening, evening.

[Assistant] You would do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cook father. I had a guy who was cook father, he, he cooked for, uh, for everybody. I mean, he cooked for the kids, and then he cooked for us as well.

[Assistant] At night?

[User] Usually evening. Evening, evening.

[Assistant] You would do that?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, in the morning I would just get tea or something, a biscuit or something like that. But he would, uh, cook for us.

[Assistant] Were the, the, how many teachers? You said there were two male teachers and others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually evening. Evening, evening.

[Assistant] You would do that?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, in the morning I would just get tea or something, a biscuit or something like that. But he would, uh, cook for us.

[Assistant] Were the, the, how many teachers? You said there were two male teachers and others.

[User] Yeah. I think we probably had, uh, uh. We probably had about, uh, I wish I had that picture I could show you. We had about ten teachers.

[Assistant] The others lived nearby?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, in the morning I would just get tea or something, a biscuit or something like that. But he would, uh, cook for us.

[Assistant] Were the, the, how many teachers? You said there were two male teachers and others.

[User] Yeah. I think we probably had, uh, uh. We probably had about, uh, I wish I had that picture I could show you. We had about ten teachers.

[Assistant] The others lived nearby?

[User] Some lived in the little town. Uh, one. Actually the first, the first year, uh, one of the Chinese teachers lived with. She and I lived together, and then she later left, and I had my own little place. That was interesting too, because when we lived, when, uh, we lived together, um, again, the insurgency was still going on, and it wasn't uncommon to, I mean, sometimes the Malay soldiers who were posted by were nearby. They would come by and they'd visit, you know, these two single females, but they would come by and visit us. And it was not unusual to have 5 or 6 guns stacked up on the outside of your house, because I didn't want them in, but they needed to bring them. And so it was just a different thing. You just kind of accepted that, I guess.

[Assistant] So what about connecting with other volunteers during your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think we probably had, uh, uh. We probably had about, uh, I wish I had that picture I could show you. We had about ten teachers.

[Assistant] The others lived nearby?

[User] Some lived in the little town. Uh, one. Actually the first, the first year, uh, one of the Chinese teachers lived with. She and I lived together, and then she later left, and I had my own little place. That was interesting too, because when we lived, when, uh, we lived together, um, again, the insurgency was still going on, and it wasn't uncommon to, I mean, sometimes the Malay soldiers who were posted by were nearby. They would come by and they'd visit, you know, these two single females, but they would come by and visit us. And it was not unusual to have 5 or 6 guns stacked up on the outside of your house, because I didn't want them in, but they needed to bring them. And so it was just a different thing. You just kind of accepted that, I guess.

[Assistant] So what about connecting with other volunteers during your service?

[User] We would go into town. There were a number of volunteers who were in Kuching, in the main town, which was where the Peace Corps office was. So we would go in there sometimes on the weekend. It was a big trek, though. I mean, if you were going to do it, you had to do it. Um, I did, I didn't have my friend Don, who came the second year I was there. He lived in the town. Um, so he, he would, if he came up, he'd ride his bicycle up in the evenings or something. And we'd sit there and discuss the problems of the world and what we were doing in the middle of the jungle. And say, say, I'm not sure if I'm up for one more goddamn enchanted evening because it was always in the jungle supposed to be enchanted evenings. And we were like, yeah, well, we'll see.

[Assistant] Um, what was your relationship to Peace Corps staff? Did they help out at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We went to Singapore and we went to, uh, Brunei. We traveled in country mostly. The only exception was when we did go to Singapore. But otherwise we'd travel in country and go to see other Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] It sounds like your living arrangements were pretty steady throughout your entire time period.

[User]
Yeah, I think we were very fortunate. I mean, we had, we had, you know, it wasn't primitive. I mean, we certainly had running water, although I didn't know. The first time I was there, we had, they would store the water in these big cement things inside your house. Well, I, I didn't know what my door. You were supposed to go in and dip the water and take your shower. Well, I didn't know that. I got in the cement thing. Well, I'll tell you, my roommate just, oh my God, she was horrified. She's like, what the hell is wrong with this woman? I'm sure she thought to herself. But I thought, it must be a shower. But it was awful, it was difficult to get into, but I thought, what do I know? So I'm in here ruining the whole water supply, you know, taking my shower. Like, no, no, let me explain. Just dip it. Okay. Splash and dip. Okay. Got it. So I only did that one time.

Um, but, I mean, it was nice. We did have running water. I could cook if I wanted to, although God knows I didn't want to, but we had, like, you know, gas. Uh, I guess it was propane stoves and stuff. And toilets, which was very, very nice to have toilets.

[Assistant] Electricity?

[User] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I mean, the British did something right. So we had a few things that were nice.

[Assistant] Um, looking back, what would you consider your, your main accomplishment as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I mean, the British did something right. So we had a few things that were nice.

[Assistant] Um, looking back, what would you consider your, your main accomplishment as a volunteer?

[User]
Well, I think just being able, uh, you know, I did, uh, you had asked about did I have any contact with students? My friend Don still has contact with one, uh, woman, uh, who's, who we both taught, and now her daughter also writes to them. So I hear about her. But I think it was in what we did was say, this is how America looks. Um, because there was a war going on. There was, you know, we were in Vietnam and we were not telling the truth about what we were doing there. You know, we would listen to, uh, Armed Forces Radio and they'd say, well, we knew there were troops in country, for God's sake we could see them, you know? So, so, I think, uh, I mean, we just were not telling the truth.

And I think, um, the fact that there was the insurrection that was going on with Indonesia, uh, we got, we learned, you know, I mean, there was, there was a lot of unsettled things. And somehow we were a little bit, there was some stability, but there was also a different face to us. We weren't necessarily all the people that were fighting all the time. We were trying to do something. And I know, I know my, like my girls, I mean, they were young girls. They were young, you know, ten, 12 years, 13 years old. But they appreciated, uh, what we were doing.

[Assistant] What, what grade levels did you teach?

[User] It was forms one through, uh, three, which is like, uh, middle, little middle school, kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Um, have any regrets? But did you suggest changing sites? Just wondered about that. Was that an option? You were pretty deep into your second year already.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born and raised in St. Louis in a suburb of Webster Groves, a very white, middle class community. My father was a lawyer, my mother a homemaker, and would have been an artist if she hadn't been a mother. And I had two older brothers, two and four years older. One of them became a lawyer. One of them tried to and ended up being a consultant in computer data processing they called it at the time. And I was the youngest of the three. A little more sensitive, a little more artistic, and not as good a student as my brothers. But then I went to University of Missouri for two years and then returned to St. Louis to go to Washington University and worked in a bookstore called the Book Nook. So I had a very middle class Midwest background for going to UCLA and then on to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] So your mother would have been an artist, but I'll bet she did a little of that artwork because frankly, I've seen some of your artwork and it's significant.

[User] Well, you've probably also seen a little bit of hers too. She grew up in Illinois and went to a couple of colleges, ended up at Northwestern. And when she married my father, they moved to Colorado, where he went to law school and she got a master's in fine arts. And while my two brothers were very, very young, she was doing quite a bit of art at home, had some exhibitions at the St. Louis Art Museum, along with other amateurs in the community. And throughout her life and later after my father died, she did pursue her art through a study group. She also taught later as a widow in high school.

[Assistant] So I'm not surprised now, now that I know of where your talent emerges.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Right. So there you are. You and Courtney are newlyweds and you immediately go off to Peace Corps training at UCLA. So tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] History, culture, the ethnic groups, health, how to deliver a baby. But most of all, it was how to speak Amharic, which was the language of about 40 percent of Ethiopia, but it was the ruling class. So we did learn some Amharic and learned it fairly well. But by the time we got to Ethiopia as English teachers, I don't think our language improved a lot more after that because we felt our obligation was to use English with our students and we were with our students, not only throughout the class day, but just about every evening we would have students over just out of curiosity. They wanted to see who we were. See our kerosene generated refrigerator. Learn about America and see if maybe we would take them with us when we went home.

[Assistant] So you're jumping into Ethiopia and understandably. And that's all right. Let me. Before I let you go from training and we might have something more, you might have something more to share about that. But I'm curious. So married couples, there were how many married couples in the group?

[User] 20.

[Assistant] 20 married couples. And so you each had a little dorm room of your own, so they didn't put you in a communal space.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you did have some privacy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 20.

[Assistant] 20 married couples. And so you each had a little dorm room of your own, so they didn't put you in a communal space.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you did have some privacy.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, that was civilized. OK, so and your training was, um, it was thorough it sounds like, and it had still had that physical training dimension, which was characteristic of the early years of Peace Corps training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you did have some privacy.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, that was civilized. OK, so and your training was, um, it was thorough it sounds like, and it had still had that physical training dimension, which was characteristic of the early years of Peace Corps training.

[User] Yeah, I don't. What I've learned since then, I think probably the first and second years, particularly for those going to Latin America, was a lot more difficult. And from some people that I've talked to since then, it was a much more modified program. The physical demands were not great. It was mostly just a lot of class time learning about Ethiopia and how to work there and how to be teachers, frankly, because I think most of us were simply college graduates. So we did do some, uh, we monitored some classes in Los Angeles and did a lot of practice teaching. We had teachers trying to teach us how to do that. I think they did fairly well and we did the best we could.

[Assistant] What was your own personal preparation in terms of college major?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, that was civilized. OK, so and your training was, um, it was thorough it sounds like, and it had still had that physical training dimension, which was characteristic of the early years of Peace Corps training.

[User] Yeah, I don't. What I've learned since then, I think probably the first and second years, particularly for those going to Latin America, was a lot more difficult. And from some people that I've talked to since then, it was a much more modified program. The physical demands were not great. It was mostly just a lot of class time learning about Ethiopia and how to work there and how to be teachers, frankly, because I think most of us were simply college graduates. So we did do some, uh, we monitored some classes in Los Angeles and did a lot of practice teaching. We had teachers trying to teach us how to do that. I think they did fairly well and we did the best we could.

[Assistant] What was your own personal preparation in terms of college major?

[User] I had several majors in college. French history, Russian history, art. Ended up with English literature, having no idea how I would apply that in the real world. But I wanted to be a writer or a teacher of English.

[Assistant] OK, so this education was a new, a new bent for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I don't. What I've learned since then, I think probably the first and second years, particularly for those going to Latin America, was a lot more difficult. And from some people that I've talked to since then, it was a much more modified program. The physical demands were not great. It was mostly just a lot of class time learning about Ethiopia and how to work there and how to be teachers, frankly, because I think most of us were simply college graduates. So we did do some, uh, we monitored some classes in Los Angeles and did a lot of practice teaching. We had teachers trying to teach us how to do that. I think they did fairly well and we did the best we could.

[Assistant] What was your own personal preparation in terms of college major?

[User] I had several majors in college. French history, Russian history, art. Ended up with English literature, having no idea how I would apply that in the real world. But I wanted to be a writer or a teacher of English.

[Assistant] OK, so this education was a new, a new bent for you.

[User] Mm hmm. Very much so.

[Assistant] Sounds like very much for other people in the group as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had several majors in college. French history, Russian history, art. Ended up with English literature, having no idea how I would apply that in the real world. But I wanted to be a writer or a teacher of English.

[Assistant] OK, so this education was a new, a new bent for you.

[User] Mm hmm. Very much so.

[Assistant] Sounds like very much for other people in the group as well.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, OK. So we're at the end of training and you're raring to go, no doubt, to get to Ethiopia at long last. So tell us about that transition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Very much so.

[Assistant] Sounds like very much for other people in the group as well.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, OK. So we're at the end of training and you're raring to go, no doubt, to get to Ethiopia at long last. So tell us about that transition.

[User]
They gave us shots before we left UCLA. One of them is gamma globulin, which makes it virtually impossible to sit on a plane to fly from California to St. Louis and Kansas City. And before we left, one of the major concerns I think a lot of trainees had was the term selected out. There are several people who were selected out, one of whom was a man named Conrad Hirsch, who was probably one of the brightest and most creative of the volunteers. I don't know firsthand why he was selected out, but there were three, two or three reasons given in rumors around the campus. One was that he went to Reed College, which was quite liberal. Another was that he had a beard and none of the rest of us did in those days. I later did.

And the third was that he had actually lived with a woman he was not married to. So my understanding was that he was selected out because somebody decided he wasn't going to be a desirable volunteer. When we finally got to Ethiopia, it was several days later, Conrad was already there and he became one of the best volunteers. I don't know how he got back into the Peace Corps, but it worked. When we left UCLA and flew to St. Louis and Kansas City to say goodbye to our families, we sold my car, which was a car that I'd inherited from my family, a little Ford Falcon. And we used the money while we were in New York to go to Boston to the Parker House, to spend the night and have Parker House rolls before we went to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] Tell us about Parker House rolls because not everybody knows that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, OK. So we're at the end of training and you're raring to go, no doubt, to get to Ethiopia at long last. So tell us about that transition.

[User]
They gave us shots before we left UCLA. One of them is gamma globulin, which makes it virtually impossible to sit on a plane to fly from California to St. Louis and Kansas City. And before we left, one of the major concerns I think a lot of trainees had was the term selected out. There are several people who were selected out, one of whom was a man named Conrad Hirsch, who was probably one of the brightest and most creative of the volunteers. I don't know firsthand why he was selected out, but there were three, two or three reasons given in rumors around the campus. One was that he went to Reed College, which was quite liberal. Another was that he had a beard and none of the rest of us did in those days. I later did.

And the third was that he had actually lived with a woman he was not married to. So my understanding was that he was selected out because somebody decided he wasn't going to be a desirable volunteer. When we finally got to Ethiopia, it was several days later, Conrad was already there and he became one of the best volunteers. I don't know how he got back into the Peace Corps, but it worked. When we left UCLA and flew to St. Louis and Kansas City to say goodbye to our families, we sold my car, which was a car that I'd inherited from my family, a little Ford Falcon. And we used the money while we were in New York to go to Boston to the Parker House, to spend the night and have Parker House rolls before we went to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] Tell us about Parker House rolls because not everybody knows that.

[User] Well, I'm sure that they're better than what we were buying in the grocery stores, but I don't remember them frankly, it's been so long.

[Assistant] Obviously, it was a destination you wanted to get to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'm sure that they're better than what we were buying in the grocery stores, but I don't remember them frankly, it's been so long.

[Assistant] Obviously, it was a destination you wanted to get to.

[User] It was one of the few things we thought we could afford to do and had time to do before we all got on the plane to fly TWA to Addis Ababa. The flight, I recall we ended up in sitting in Khartoum for several hours before we could complete the flight. Other than that, it was fairly interesting. We did stop in Athens and watched a new king's marriage I believe it was. It was the first time we pledged to ourselves we would never, ever again stand on the street corner for royalty. It was an exhausting, embarrassing experience and we actually missed most of it.

[Assistant] So this wedding was taking place in a public outdoor area?

[User] Yeah, it was. Athens was celebrating. I believe it was the wedding of the king. And all I remember about the hotel because they, when we landed in Athens, everyone had, I think we had two or three rooms. You could just kind of catch a nap, but most people wanted to go out and see things. It was the first time I ever saw a bidet and I thought it was the place where you brush your teeth. So I think I can fairly say that both Courtney and I were very young, very naive, very impressionable, and we were about to enter a country that was not naive and was very impressive and in some ways very frightening.

[Assistant] So you're on your way now. You stop over in Greece and then you catch another flight on to Addis Ababa. So tell us about landing there and what did you do when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. In order to get there from Addis, although we went to Dire Dawa to take a Land Rover to Asebe Teferi, generally what you'd do is you get on the train and ride about seven hours to a little desert town called Mieso, which is about halfway to Dire Dawa. And you get off the train in Mieso and you wait for a bus, a little, you know, a 20-seater bus that has a lot of loud music. And that bus will drive you up into the mountains to up to Asebe Teferi. And that's about maybe 45 minutes or an hour ride.

[Assistant] And that's the way you had to travel when you were on your own, when you didn't have the opportunity to meet the Peace Corps doctor.

[User] Right. And usually in order to get from Asebe Teferi to Addis, we would take the bus back down to Mieso and get on a night train. And that's one of the more exciting experiences of life in Ethiopia. There were three classes of train and we took the third class car and I generally ended up tucked under a bench along with some trussed chickens. People sitting above us on the benches were Ethiopian women taking their chickens to market. And when I wanted a little fresh air, I would go to the end of the car. And I don't recall that there were doors on these cars. You just kind of grab on to a railing before you would step off the train. But this train is going quite fast through the dark and the desert, and you could just hang on to that bar and sit on that lower step and just feel the cold desert air running by and in the darkness see little lights off in the distance.

[Assistant] And that's how you got fresh air.

[User] Yeah. Good fun.

[Assistant] Right. Memorable. And so why did you end up under a bench along with the chickens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And usually in order to get from Asebe Teferi to Addis, we would take the bus back down to Mieso and get on a night train. And that's one of the more exciting experiences of life in Ethiopia. There were three classes of train and we took the third class car and I generally ended up tucked under a bench along with some trussed chickens. People sitting above us on the benches were Ethiopian women taking their chickens to market. And when I wanted a little fresh air, I would go to the end of the car. And I don't recall that there were doors on these cars. You just kind of grab on to a railing before you would step off the train. But this train is going quite fast through the dark and the desert, and you could just hang on to that bar and sit on that lower step and just feel the cold desert air running by and in the darkness see little lights off in the distance.

[Assistant] And that's how you got fresh air.

[User] Yeah. Good fun.

[Assistant] Right. Memorable. And so why did you end up under a bench along with the chickens?

[User] They were always crowded, particularly third class. I don't think that first class had many customers. And we just, I don't know what, I don't remember what the price was for first class. But it seemed ridiculously high.

[Assistant] And not in your budget as a Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Good fun.

[Assistant] Right. Memorable. And so why did you end up under a bench along with the chickens?

[User] They were always crowded, particularly third class. I don't think that first class had many customers. And we just, I don't know what, I don't remember what the price was for first class. But it seemed ridiculously high.

[Assistant] And not in your budget as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Did any of the Ethiopians ask you why you weren't riding first class since you were obviously an expat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were always crowded, particularly third class. I don't think that first class had many customers. And we just, I don't know what, I don't remember what the price was for first class. But it seemed ridiculously high.

[Assistant] And not in your budget as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Did any of the Ethiopians ask you why you weren't riding first class since you were obviously an expat?

[User] I don't think we had many conversations with Ethiopians on the night train. Most of them on third class didn't speak any English, and we were just absolutely strange to them.

[Assistant] Subjects of observation and puzzlement. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Right. Did any of the Ethiopians ask you why you weren't riding first class since you were obviously an expat?

[User] I don't think we had many conversations with Ethiopians on the night train. Most of them on third class didn't speak any English, and we were just absolutely strange to them.

[Assistant] Subjects of observation and puzzlement. Right.

[User] Or they really didn't care.

[Assistant] That's, yes, a possibility too, isn't it? So tell us about your life in your village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think we had many conversations with Ethiopians on the night train. Most of them on third class didn't speak any English, and we were just absolutely strange to them.

[Assistant] Subjects of observation and puzzlement. Right.

[User] Or they really didn't care.

[Assistant] That's, yes, a possibility too, isn't it? So tell us about your life in your village.

[User]
We, the four of us, Pat, Eileen, Courtney and I, were driven to a seven-room house that was directly behind the school, which is called, uh. Let's see. Uppaseitom. I've remembered this all of my life. Let's see. In Amharic it's [inaudible], but this particular one's [inaudible]. No. [name in Amharic] And it was a school for probably kindergarten through eighth grade, and we were to be the four teachers that would augment the current Ethiopian staff so they could start a ninth and then a 10th grade in the school.

And I think that most of these students had very good support from their parents because they wanted us to. They wanted these children to learn and stay in their own town instead of having to, uh. Many of these students came from little villages all around and even down near Mieso in the desert. So they were able to come to this school rather than go way down to the larger, much larger town of Dire Dawa at a school where many of them would get into trouble. So because we were able to offer additional grades in the school, which after we left became a twelve grade school. We got a lot of support from the parents about making sure the children were there and very committed to their studies. And most of those kids were very good students and tried very hard.

[Assistant] So it sounds like this was a new school then that was being developed by the government or by the local community? Who was behind it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Right. What did this man teach when he was teaching?

[User] I believe he was teaching English, but I think every teacher had several classes. They taught different classes. For example, I taught English, social studies, math. And Courtney taught English and geography and a couple of other courses. She also got to teach in some of the lower grades, but mostly for the four of us as teachers in the school, we were teaching in seventh and eighth and ninth and then tenth grades.

[Assistant] As the year went on or as the two years went on? Because you were adding a year each year.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] OK, so tell us about your experience of teaching. We've already talked about how education as a methodology and as a discipline was new to you. You were trained, you were introduced to it in training in terms of how you would, how people learn and how the best way to be a good, effective teacher. And then you were dropped in this village and asked to teach, assigned to teach in a high school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe he was teaching English, but I think every teacher had several classes. They taught different classes. For example, I taught English, social studies, math. And Courtney taught English and geography and a couple of other courses. She also got to teach in some of the lower grades, but mostly for the four of us as teachers in the school, we were teaching in seventh and eighth and ninth and then tenth grades.

[Assistant] As the year went on or as the two years went on? Because you were adding a year each year.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] OK, so tell us about your experience of teaching. We've already talked about how education as a methodology and as a discipline was new to you. You were trained, you were introduced to it in training in terms of how you would, how people learn and how the best way to be a good, effective teacher. And then you were dropped in this village and asked to teach, assigned to teach in a high school.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] What kind of resources did you find and how did you put together your, the content of your curriculum?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And what were the Ethiopian teachers using, if they. I'm assuming they had no textbooks either.

[User] Technically they were supposed to be teaching in English after the sixth grade, but I don't think that all of them did. So they might have been relying on textbooks in Amharic from the government school system.

[Assistant] And some of those were available at the school?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or in the personal libraries, perhaps, of the teachers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Technically they were supposed to be teaching in English after the sixth grade, but I don't think that all of them did. So they might have been relying on textbooks in Amharic from the government school system.

[Assistant] And some of those were available at the school?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or in the personal libraries, perhaps, of the teachers.

[User] I think as is probably the habit with many teachers who taught for several years, they developed their own little curriculum and their own set of information to use over and over each year. We didn't have that kind of experience, so we needed some fresh material.

[Assistant] Right. Was there a prescribed curriculum that you had to cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or in the personal libraries, perhaps, of the teachers.

[User] I think as is probably the habit with many teachers who taught for several years, they developed their own little curriculum and their own set of information to use over and over each year. We didn't have that kind of experience, so we needed some fresh material.

[Assistant] Right. Was there a prescribed curriculum that you had to cover?

[User] Yes, I'm sure there was. I don't remember what it was, but it was. For example, a Courtney was supposed to, in geography, teach each continent separately. And, you know, one semester you taught North America and another you taught Europe and another Asia and then Latin America. And she thought it. What she experienced was a little bit of a backlash from students who resented having to spend an entire semester on North America. Because at those times we were having, even before the Vietnam War, there were many issues about U.S. involvement in other countries in Africa and. While they really were interested in what we had to say, they were being, they were very suspicious of what our views were about Elvis Presley or Cassius Clay or any of the conflicts in the world.

[Assistant] So they were curious, right. And opened up these conversations with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Right. And so because he had a different name in the United States, you did not know with whom you were working up until. And I wonder if he knew. Did he know your name?

[User] No, he didn't.

[Assistant] In your Voice of America capacity?

[User] As far as I know, based on the telephone conversation we had after he'd returned to Atlanta, he was not aware of who I was or who the person was that was supervising the broadcast, because I didn't go on the air. I was just an administrator. I would work with government officials in Ethiopia and occasionally travel there to try to negotiate more licenses for stringers. But other than that, I was not a presence on the broadcasts.

[Assistant] Other people were speaking and broadcasting. Uh huh. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he didn't.

[Assistant] In your Voice of America capacity?

[User] As far as I know, based on the telephone conversation we had after he'd returned to Atlanta, he was not aware of who I was or who the person was that was supervising the broadcast, because I didn't go on the air. I was just an administrator. I would work with government officials in Ethiopia and occasionally travel there to try to negotiate more licenses for stringers. But other than that, I was not a presence on the broadcasts.

[Assistant] Other people were speaking and broadcasting. Uh huh. Right.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And it wasn't until you telephoned him that he knew your name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as I know, based on the telephone conversation we had after he'd returned to Atlanta, he was not aware of who I was or who the person was that was supervising the broadcast, because I didn't go on the air. I was just an administrator. I would work with government officials in Ethiopia and occasionally travel there to try to negotiate more licenses for stringers. But other than that, I was not a presence on the broadcasts.

[Assistant] Other people were speaking and broadcasting. Uh huh. Right.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And it wasn't until you telephoned him that he knew your name.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Heard your name and he remembered you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And it wasn't until you telephoned him that he knew your name.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Heard your name and he remembered you.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what about this guitar he made? Do you and Courtney still have that by chance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Heard your name and he remembered you.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what about this guitar he made? Do you and Courtney still have that by chance?

[User] No, we don't, and I don't know what happened to it. As with many decades of life, there are some things that we have lost and that's one of them.

[Assistant] Yes. Well, you've had several moves across the country and things get lost in that. Wow, so that's a great story of a former student who has made a major impact to record this language that otherwise had never been written. Is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what about this guitar he made? Do you and Courtney still have that by chance?

[User] No, we don't, and I don't know what happened to it. As with many decades of life, there are some things that we have lost and that's one of them.

[Assistant] Yes. Well, you've had several moves across the country and things get lost in that. Wow, so that's a great story of a former student who has made a major impact to record this language that otherwise had never been written. Is that?

[User]
No. In fact, when later in my life on an AID contract to propose a media training center in Addis for Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania. The U.S. government was interested in creating this training center in Addis and wanted me to explore the possibility and interview people in each of those countries to see if it was possible and propose a curriculum, a way of funding it, which I did. But while I was there, I did run into, uh, I didn't run into. I actually had an appointment to meet with Mingesha Woltom McHale, who was another one of our young students. Mingesha was one of the most earnest and dedicated students that we knew. Very, very young.

All these boys, the younger boys, were barefoot and wore torn shorts and torn shirts. They were all from very poor families and Mingesha was one that was almost every afternoon at our house and just so curious about who we were and how much he could learn. He may not have been the absolute most, the brightest student in the class, but he was the most dedicated to learning. And he did become quite a good friend of ours over the years, although he never came to the United States and died several years ago.

[Assistant] Did you get to find him when you were in Addis Ababa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Not much. Because we were inexperienced teachers and had, at least in the beginning, very few resources to prepare for classes, we spent just about every weekday evening sitting at a little table in our house with a Chinese macho. It's called the Aeroplane, A-E-R-O-P-L-A-N-E, was the brand of the kerosene lantern from China that had a very large hood over it. And we would sit on either side of the table from this macho lantern that gave us our light and do our lesson plans and just do all of the work that a teacher is supposed to be doing at night. Friday nights, we would often go to a bar called the Rocket Bar, and this would all at that time be spelled in the particular alphabet of the Amharic language.

And incidentally, when I went back many years later. After the one particular government, the Derg, was replaced and there was more of an effort by the new government to create ethnic diversity within the country, the Oromo region, which we lived in, decided to adopt the Roman alphabet. And so when I went back to visit the Rocket Bar with Mingesha, I could spell it because it was all in English.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Not in the Amharic language.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was interesting the very change that had occurred.

[Assistant] So the same bar was there, the same name, but inscribed in different alphabet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in the Amharic language.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was interesting the very change that had occurred.

[Assistant] So the same bar was there, the same name, but inscribed in different alphabet.

[User] Very little changed in the 20 or 30 years since we were teachers there. And with the exception of the fact that there was a brand- new school a little further up the valley. Not a very modern school, and unfortunately, because of Mengesha's illness, I wasn't able to see it. But did see my old school, which was at the time, I think, abandoned.

[Assistant] Hmm. So it wasn't operating then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little changed in the 20 or 30 years since we were teachers there. And with the exception of the fact that there was a brand- new school a little further up the valley. Not a very modern school, and unfortunately, because of Mengesha's illness, I wasn't able to see it. But did see my old school, which was at the time, I think, abandoned.

[Assistant] Hmm. So it wasn't operating then.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Very hard.

[User] What was your question? I think I might have missed something here.

[Assistant] No, I think. I asked about your social life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What was your question? I think I might have missed something here.

[Assistant] No, I think. I asked about your social life.

[User]
Oh. The social life. On the weekends we would go hiking and the mountain at the end of our valley was called Jelo Mountain, which in English we were told either means crooked finger or crooked penis. I don't recall whether anyone argued better for one translation or the other. But it was a beautiful mountain and we would take a couple of donkeys and some students and we would hike up to the top of the mountain and camp. And we did this at least once. And one night Muhammad Tahir and I were out trying to corral the one of the runaway donkeys. But it was exciting to him. It was a beautiful country. Most of the trees were eucalyptus, which was an imported tree from Australia.

And in fact, when I went back many years later to Asebe Teferi and I mentioned that almost nothing had changed. The one thing that had changed was that they had adopted a new tree that people there called the Truman tree, which is a smaller, less magnificent tree, but apparently has something to do with reducing the population of flies.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] Flies were something that Courtney and I became very aware of before we got to Ethiopia, when we had, uh, let me go back a bit. When I called Courtney from Washington, D.C., and announced that we'd had an invitation to go to Ethiopia, and she said yes, we were at her parents' house either before or after the wedding and were watching a television show. Ironically, it was showing Peace Corps volunteers. And they were talking about their work, and they kept waving their hands in front of their faces, trying to keep the flies away. I don't think flies were that big a problem in Ethiopia, but for some it did. And for the town of Asebe Teferi, it was very, they were very grateful to have their Truman trees because they thought it reduced the fly population.

[Assistant] But you don't know that for a fact?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh. The social life. On the weekends we would go hiking and the mountain at the end of our valley was called Jelo Mountain, which in English we were told either means crooked finger or crooked penis. I don't recall whether anyone argued better for one translation or the other. But it was a beautiful mountain and we would take a couple of donkeys and some students and we would hike up to the top of the mountain and camp. And we did this at least once. And one night Muhammad Tahir and I were out trying to corral the one of the runaway donkeys. But it was exciting to him. It was a beautiful country. Most of the trees were eucalyptus, which was an imported tree from Australia.

And in fact, when I went back many years later to Asebe Teferi and I mentioned that almost nothing had changed. The one thing that had changed was that they had adopted a new tree that people there called the Truman tree, which is a smaller, less magnificent tree, but apparently has something to do with reducing the population of flies.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] Flies were something that Courtney and I became very aware of before we got to Ethiopia, when we had, uh, let me go back a bit. When I called Courtney from Washington, D.C., and announced that we'd had an invitation to go to Ethiopia, and she said yes, we were at her parents' house either before or after the wedding and were watching a television show. Ironically, it was showing Peace Corps volunteers. And they were talking about their work, and they kept waving their hands in front of their faces, trying to keep the flies away. I don't think flies were that big a problem in Ethiopia, but for some it did. And for the town of Asebe Teferi, it was very, they were very grateful to have their Truman trees because they thought it reduced the fly population.

[Assistant] But you don't know that for a fact?

[User] I'll never know.

[Assistant] Right. In your own house, did you have screens on your windows and doors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ammina and Mohammed are, at least as of today I believe, in very good health. Older. They have many sons, I think one daughter. And during the course of raising their family, they offered to send any one of their children to our care in the United States, but we didn't accept the invitation.

[Assistant] So, all right. Before we talk about sort of your close of service and leaving Ethiopia and your next phase of life, are there other stories or events that you want to include?

[User] No, I think that's it.

[Assistant] You think you've covered a lot of the things about your years of service.

[User] Some of it.

[Assistant] Some of it, right. Some of it. All right. What about now as you approach the end of your two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in the village? What was your feeling and how did you proceed towards your departure?