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Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So the human mind generates all this.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:01:43.560
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And so what do you think is the, they all seem to be like echoes of the same thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:01:46.520
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
What do you think emotion is exactly?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:01:52.840
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Like how deep does it run?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:01:56.280
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Is it a surface level thing that we display to each other?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:01:57.720
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Is it just another form of language or something deep within?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:01.800
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
I think it's really deep.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:05.640
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's how, you know, we started with memory.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:07.480
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
I think emotions play a really important role.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:09.880
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Yeah, emotions play a very important role in how we encode memories, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:14.040
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Our memories are often encoded, almost indexed by emotions.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:18.040
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Yeah.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:21.640
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Yeah, it's at the core of how, you know, our decision making engine is also heavily
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:22.120
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
influenced by our emotions.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:28.520
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So emotions is part of cognition.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:30.040
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Totally.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:31.960
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's intermixed into the whole thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:32.680
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Yes, absolutely.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:34.680
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And in fact, when you take it away, people are unable to make decisions.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:35.960
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
They're really paralyzed.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:39.960
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Like they can't go about their daily or their, you know, personal or professional lives.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:41.000
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:45.240
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It does seem like there's probably some interesting interweaving of emotion and consciousness.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:45.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
I wonder if it's possible to have, like if they're next door neighbors somehow, or if
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:53.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
they're actually flat mates.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:02:58.940
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
I don't, it feels like the hard problem of consciousness where it's some, it feels like
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:01.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
something to experience the thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:08.940
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Like red feels like red, and it's, you know, when you eat a mango, it's sweet.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:10.780
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
The taste, the sweetness, that it feels like something to experience that sweetness, that
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Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
whatever generates emotions.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:24.620
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
But then like, see, I feel like emotion is part of communication.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:28.060
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's very much about communication.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:31.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And then, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:34.300
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
and then that means it's also deeply connected to language.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:39.420
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
But then probably human intelligence is deeply connected to the collective intelligence between
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Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
humans.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:52.300
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's not just the standalone thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:52.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So the whole thing is really connected.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:54.540
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So emotion is connected to language, language is connected to intelligence, and then intelligence
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:03:56.380
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
is connected to consciousness, and consciousness is connected to emotion.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:02.140
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
The whole thing is that it's a beautiful mess.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:05.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So can I comment on the emotions being a communication mechanism?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:09.180
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Because I think there are two facets of our emotional experiences.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:15.660
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
One is communication, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:23.020
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Like we use emotions, for example, facial expressions or other nonverbal cues to connect
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:24.380
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
with other human beings and with other beings in the world, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:29.820
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
But even if it's not a communication context, we still experience emotions and we still
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:34.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
process emotions and we still leverage emotions to make decisions and to learn and, you know,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:40.460
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
to experience life.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:46.860
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So it isn't always just about communication.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:47.740
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And we learned that very early on in our and kind of our work at Affectiva.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:51.180
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
One of the very first applications we brought to market was understanding how people respond
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:04:56.460
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
to content, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:00.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So if they're watching this video of ours, like, are they interested?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:01.660
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Are they inspired?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:04.860
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Are they bored to death?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:05.900
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And so we watched their facial expressions and we had, we weren't sure if people would
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:07.180
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
express any emotions if they were sitting alone.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:12.060
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Like if you're in your bed at night, watching a Netflix TV series, would we still see any
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:15.580
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
emotions on your face?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:20.220
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And we were surprised that, yes, people still emote, even if they're alone, even if you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:21.420
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
in your car driving around, you're singing along the song and you're joyful, you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:25.660
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
smiling, you're joyful, we'll see these expressions.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:30.300
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So it's not just about communicating with another person.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:33.980
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It sometimes really isn't just about experiencing the world.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:37.820
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And first of all, I wonder if some of that is because we develop our intelligence and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:41.260
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
our emotional intelligence by communicating with other humans.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:47.900
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And so when other humans disappear from the picture, we're still kind of a virtual human.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:52.140
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
The code still runs.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:56.940
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
Yeah, the code still runs, but you also kind of, you're still, there's like virtual humans.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:05:57.900
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
You don't have to think of it that way, but there's a kind of, when you like chuckle,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:02.860
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
like, yeah, like you're kind of chuckling to a virtual human.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:07.260
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
I mean, it's possible that the code has to have another human there because if you just
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:13.100
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
grew up alone, I wonder if emotion will still be there in this visual form.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:23.340
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So yeah, I wonder, but anyway, what can you tell from the human face about what's going
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:28.540
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
on inside?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:37.100
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So that's the problem that Effectiva first tackled, which is using computer vision, using
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:38.300
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
machine learning to try to detect stuff about the human face, as many things as possible
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:45.100
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
and convert them into a prediction of categories of emotion, anger, happiness, all that kind
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:50.220
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
of stuff.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:57.900
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
How hard is that problem?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:06:58.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's extremely hard.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:00.300
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
It's very, very hard because there is no one to one mapping between a facial expression
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:01.340
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
and your internal state.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:07.180
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
There just isn't.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:08.380
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
There's this oversimplification of the problem where it's something like, if you are smiling,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:09.340
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
then you're happy.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:14.220
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
If you do a brow furrow, then you're angry.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:15.180
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
If you do an eyebrow raise, then you're surprised.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:17.340
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
And just think about it for a moment.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:19.500
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
You could be smiling for a whole host of reasons.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:22.140
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
You could also be happy and not be smiling, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:24.940
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
You could furrow your eyebrows because you're angry or you're confused about something or
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:28.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
you're constipated.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:34.220
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So I think this oversimplistic approach to inferring emotion from a facial expression
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:37.100
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
is really dangerous.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:41.820
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
The solution is to incorporate as many contextual signals as you can, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:42.780
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
So if, for example, I'm driving a car and you can see me like nodding my head and my
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:07:48.700
Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
eyes are closed and the blinking rate is changing, I'm probably falling asleep at the wheel,
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Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322
right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0322-large.html#01:08:00.460