So let's start our second me meeting on conceptual design.

So,

Mm-hmm.

as the previous meeting I will be the secretary

Mm-hmm.

and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision. So I will first uh.

No y you do the minutes first, or?

What?

No?

I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first, Mister David Jordan.

Okay.

Yep.

So, we'll S

Yeah.

technical accessoire?

No no no.

Interface?

Yeah.

This.

Mm. So uh first I will present the concept of user interface. Um there's three concepts in the user interface. So first one it's a Google controller. The second is a fancy controller. The last one is uh intelligent controller. So there are three concepts in our controller. Um n next I will explain one by one, the first is Google controller. Um, so I want the controller to be easy to use, but with sophisticated functions. So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions. Uh this is a first concept of our controller. The second concept is a fancy controller, um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive, um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products, so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute, very very g um

Mm.

Mm.

A nice one.

attractive. Such like this, there are several uh examples in the slides.

I'm not sure the one in the middle is very attractive.

Yeah, it's very, you know

It's very big,

if you're.

yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it. Or to recognise it,

Okay.

yeah.

Yeah, why not..

Yeah. Yeah.

We'll have big discussion I suppose after that,

Yeah. Yeah.

so.

Yeah.

Mm.

So the last uh concept is intelligent. We want uh we want our controller to be smart,

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

so maybe we should uh use um uh technology, such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology, so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition. Um With this advanced features we I think we can attract a lot of user.

Okay. Something else?

Okay. No. There this is the three concepts of our controller.

Yeah.

I just have one question, because for the intelligent controller, you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition,

Yeah. Yeah.

but as the um expert told us, most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels. Do you think they will be able to use gestures?

Yeah, so.

Because, if they do all the time the same gesture, as you said previously in the last meeting, maybe they will get injuries because of that?

Y

Yeah. Maybe.

or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five, I think they will be bored after a while. You don't think so?

Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button.

Yeah, sure.

For example, if you cannot find your uh controller, you can just uh just just uh speak something such as, yeah, one two.

I

Oh yeah, that's a good that's a good point, so.

That's true..

One and.

Yeah, but suppose you got a cold. You have a mute remote controller.

Yeah.

Mm.

So you can use your gesture. That's no problem..

Yeah but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition?

Broken arm?

For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah, but suppose you have a family watching T_V_, and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time, do you think it will work? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time?

Yeah.

Yep..

But this this but this would never happen anyway.

Why?

Yeah, they cannot speak at the same time.

If you have one brother and one sister

Yeah.

and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme,

Yeah, but the.

so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time,

Yeah but Yeah

Yeah, it's very interesting..

Yeah but this.

so.

but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control

Yeah.

because the.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I don't think it.

but you have the remote control, so maybe you can keep it f with you.

That's right.

You're not you're not obliged to share it.

Oh, okay, okay, you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff.

Yeah, we can yeah.

Yeah, that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller. Even you h you have the controller, I can I can say channel three,

It's it's.

No.

so it's c come to channel three,

No, but this is disadvant disadvantage.

I don't have to.

Yeah, I think it's a disadvantage.

It's advantage.

Yeah.

And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to

Yeah, but one other question.

manual controllers, eh.

How how much will it cost?

No, more expensive maybe.

How much?

Yeah. Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working.

No no we we d we we just are use um.

Some some efficient.

Uh if you if if you use the basic.

No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute, we don't have to do some basic research on this field.

So you think it won't cost an Not a lot for us? Or?

Yeah, I think it's uh because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition, it's very.

Yeah, but uh uh.

it's uh yeah. It's.

But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built. Because then you need uh I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition, for example.

Well y y you have also the language problem,

No it's uh Even for the f um because the the vocabulary the.

you know when you.

Mm-mm.

'Cause it it have to be universal,

Yeah. I agree with uh.

so.

The vocabulary is very small, so that's not a problem.

Yeah.

Yeah, but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international

Yeah.

Yeah.

remote control. We need something that is international. Suppose we're we want to sell it in France.

Yeah.

The recognition system will be able to understand French. If you want to go to England, it will be able to understand English,

Yeah.

so.

Yeah, the key, the key um the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation

Yeah, this could be downloaded by the web maybe, or.

Yeah but you know. The product The pro

mechanism. It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese. It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French.

It's a very smart, it's a very smart controller maybe.

Mm, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah,

And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control?

it's.

Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. But.

Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed.

Yeah, but how will you.

So.

Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller, you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world, the same one.

Yeah. Yeah.

If you have the language, you have to develop for each country.

Mm.

Oh n Yeah, yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation.

Yeah, but for each country you have to do one,

Yeah.

because uh the for example for Se.

Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to.

Oh really? That's.

Oh.

Yeah,

Seems to be quite complex.

but then w Yeah,

Comple

No, it's not so complex.

we have to take care of the twelve Euros

And what about voice recognition, do we have microphones?

problem.

And where will be they? Do you think if we're far from television it will work?

No no no it's not I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone. It it just the microphone is embedded in the controller.

Yeah, but where is the controller?

Okay.

Where is the controller?

Yeah.

It's in your family, in your home..

Yeah, but we're.

No, but then it's it's like this uh.

here it's uh an object. But here you say you want to use i uh s technology.

Yeah. Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here.

A microphone maybe.

Yeah, but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this, if you have an object. If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free, without any object.

To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe.

You just want to interact with television.

Yeah yeah just you just put the controller here, then you

I if you say one, he switch to channel,

you use your command

Yeah,

yeah.

and you do s your gesture.

but you can lose it..

No no it's n y if you lose it.

So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one.

Yeah.

Okay you so you can build a kind of black box

Devic

and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone inside your remote control.

Ah.

Yeah.

But you would still have the buttons. Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons?

think it we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think.

Okay, so you.

Yeah,

yeah.

yeah.

You can see they can switch form one modality to another.

Mm.

Yeah, I dunno. It's a bit risky risky.

I think so.

Yeah.

No,

And maybe it will be quite.

that's quite inter quite attractive.

But I think that, you know, switching from one country to to another will be a problem, so although y y

Well, if you do language adaptation, there should be no problem..

Yeah,

Yeah but i i.

Okay..

I dunno.

We should have confidence in technology..

Yeah, we should. Uh.

Hmm. So, what do you think? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer.

Mm.

What?

Which kind of controller would you prefer to use, you as a remote control user?

If if I mean, uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price, he's happy to have recognition.

More features, yeah.

Yeah, but.

But if if if it like doubles uh

I think he need a control that is very reliable,

no one would would be interested.

so.

So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller. Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller? Hmm?

Yeah. Yeah.

Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller, easy to use, sophisticated and fancy. You think it's possible?

Yeah but if if you stick to um stick to the first two parts. So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market? There's no k features of our controller, so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features?

Yeah.

Yeah. No,

Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that.

I mean.

It's not really the we

Y

we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet, so or something like that. But uh I think a user need.

Yeah, you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller, that's a function of T_V_. You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function,

No,

but.

but you need you need new remote controller then. Because if you wanna browse internet or, I don't know, if you wanna type something,

Don't have a the the Yeah

Okay.

or.

if we can send email from it.

But it's not the only the problem only the issue of controller, it's it's also the issue of the T_V_.

No. No.

Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if.

Cause for example yeah.

Yeah, but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller,

Yeah.

Yeah, but uh we want so

but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it, your mobile, but you when you choose a new mobile, you choose the one with voice recognition.

Yeah, you wou you would.

That's.

True.

the feature is not one hundred percent reliable, but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products.

Yeah, but w we we want something th that works all the time, every day, every hour, for everyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And for all the person of the family maybe,

Yeah, uh.

You don't need to tune it.

so, yeah.

Yeah, if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable, would you replace it with another one?

Yeah, why not? If it's.

I mean, for example the goo y

Because you have new.

you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google. Google is is simple, works fine,

Yeah.

so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic, simple and works fine, it's already a lot.

Yeah. Oh yes, but there's no big difference between the traditional controller.

Uh thi this I mean, the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition

The then nn

or.

no.

if he has something that works fine and is really fancy, looks nice and it's easy easy to use, easy to use.

Tha

Not too expensive too.

But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller.

See.

That's the same.

That's the problem,

yeah.

yeah. I mean, I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever.

Ye.

Yeah.

But you have to think, the user is the one who gonna buy the product

Yeah.

and so.

Okay. So

I mean, that's the point.

let's go to the Industrial Designer.

Okay.

Okay.

Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that, so.

Okay.

Yeah.

Two?

Yeah, participant two um.

Working?

Yeah, working design,

so.

So I think.

I can.

Can you go to the next one? I uh it's not this one.

Okay.

It's uh oth the oth so I.

It's the working design. Sorry. Component design.

It's okay.

So this yeah so this is the described use.

What? Are you inst

Uh I think there's something wrong with your.

It did didn't r receive it. Didn't receive it.

Maybe you you record it somewhere else.

I don't think so.

Participant one. Participant one.

Interface concept. No.

Hmm.

Mm mm.

Oh. Maybe I record recorded directly on the Computer.

Yeah.

Uh. Nope..

Dunno.

Okay, okay. Yes.

It seems that we have a problem with the.

I dunno if you remember what you had to say or.

I can say it to you without.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, maybe we can first come to

No, I think it will be more interesting to start with uh.

uh to Frahan. With Frahan, then you can prepare your slides,

I think it's more interesting what he says,

Yeah.

Yeah,

then present it later.

okay.

exac

You will had s some more information in.

Okay.

I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation.

Yeah.

Yeah, true.

Yeah.

Okay..

In fact, I don't know,

So. Okay.

I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with.

Okay, never mind.

so It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r

Okay.

of the remote control. So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside

Okay. Okay.

and so. So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use,

Mm-hmm.

so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one. So and in which which which kind will be the the different bu button,

Mm-hmm.

so it can be some, you know, classic pushbutton like this one, or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know, the button the buttons are unlighted during the night,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

or, you know, you can see them in the darkness.

Okay.

Okay.

And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation, electric alimentation do you want to have, so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation

Uh-huh.

or will it be a battery like the classical battery so. And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them, so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from, you know, the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal, so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation, you just, when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it, for example.

Yeah, I think it's an added value to the remote control

Yeah. Yeah, yeah mm.

and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers

Ecologists, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

and but about the the price of adding this solar battery, would it be something really that will increase the price of production more,

no?

Alrigh In fact, having them both will if we want to have battery, regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it'll it will add a little bit of the price,

So.

but it will be an added value also that will be compensated,

Yeah.

Okay.

so hmm.

And what tha what about the uh materials?

And the materials, it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common

Impersonal, mm-hmm.

it's very resistant but, you know, something wooden will be like, I don't know high cl so a special high class,

Yeah.

Special for.

or you know, you can have some.

Yeah, and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, even if it is not completely wood, but just a part of the, you know, will be wooden, in wood

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

and it can be interesting.

Mm okay, seems to be interesting, mm.

And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits, chips, or do you have low level or or very very expensive, it depends, but I think that low level will be, you know, it is an interim module.

Yeah, we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And you think that we will be.

Yeah, I think it will fit on the price we want, twel twelve Euros,

Okay.

so.

So wood.

And what about the buttons?

I think the buttons I pr I prefer, you know, the L_C_D_ you know lighted buttons because, you know, it's I don't know um yeah, in the dark, it's fashion

No it's fashion, yeah.

and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost, you know in the darkness it's very easy so, right.

What about the touch scr touch screen? For example. It's it's expensive I I guess.

I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so.

Mm.

But And it is a kind of other design, I mean. It can also be interesting to have this kind of.

Yeah.

So you got email?

I dunno. I think we have only uh five minutes left.

Okay.

Participant four? Functional requirements?

Uh no, trend watching. The other one..

This one?

Yeah. Uh, I think so, just Yeah, so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market, so next.

So again, it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting. Um user really really want a fancy look and feel. They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel, okay. Like the one you've shown, David, with all the buttons and I mean i i it sounds good technically

Mm.

Mm.

but it's it's not what they want and uh So, second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative, so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on.

Okay.

At the same time, it's important that it's easy to use. So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis.

Now i if we look at fashion in general um Okay. Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables,

Ah yes.

okay, so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.

'Cause it's it's really what people want. Even if it's in general fashion, we want it to be in the remote control. And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points, fancy look and feel has, on a score of seven would have six as importance. Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative, it's three. Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones.

Okay.

So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one, and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris

And fruit and vegetables yeah.

we go to the fruits and vede vegetables. And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch,

Spongy'Kay.

okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

I dunno.

Yeah, but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy?

Yeah thi this is this would be like um

Pla S

plastic-like, but rubber, mayb maybe, you know, rubber-like uh

Very stuff Okay, rubber rubber desi okay, yeah. Yeah.

device, so um

Yeah.

Okay, tha tha that was the main point, I think, from the trend in fashion.

Okay.

So we have to take decisions about the component concepts, about the energy. So, as you say you want something technologically innovative, maybe using solar energy and with battery would be something interesting,

Yeah. Solar.

Yeah, so when I think it's.

Okay.

maybe will attract

Yeah.

Mm-hmm

It will be a.

pro-ecology consumers.

Yeah.

Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well.

Yeah, I think Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Case.

Later?.

So you think case. Something spongy. Someth no wood.

No wood but Plastic?

Maybe not no wood, but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know.

Would some.

Pla

Maybe you.

I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and, you know. It depends on the design we want,

Yeah, maybe the base.

so.

It's it's natural.

But still y

Th The feeling is natural,

Yeah, it's natural

Yeah.

and i

so maybe we can stay with wood.

And it can be correlated to energy, solar energy, so for the marketing aspect, you know, saying that it's ecol

Yeah, I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view.

Mm, yeah, it's not right, so.

But it's still fashion.

But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons,

Okay.

or

Yeah,

I dunno.

something that you can into it.

Yeah.

Uh and what about the user interface concept?

Google and.

Google and fancy?

and fancy, f how about the the voice? And.

Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this.

Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested

Uh yes.

and how It It is an an interesting concept to see to have uh voice control.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

The smart controller..

But and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_, so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually,

Yeah,

so.

but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice.

But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control, so.

That's true.

Yeah d

Okay.

So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller,

I dunno.

Mm.

maybe try to mix them these two concepts together, just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood.

Yeah. It's good.

And L_C_D_ buttons.

Yeah, L_C_D_.

Yeah, I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And pf what can we think a supplement to.

What interface?

Yeah, for the interface something added value.

I think the supplement can be the voice. It is just, you know, it is not the most important, but it can be a part of.

With a module? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use

Yeah, yeah.

commands, words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers.

Yeah. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

To push button, yeah, yeah. Even it is for s just some kids, you know, switching channels one two three four.

Turning the T_V_ o on o or off.

Yeah, turning yeah, yeah. Not very complex commands, but easy commands,

So,

so.

adding some vocal commands.

Yeah.

Simple ones?

Yeah, simple ones for.

Okay. So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes so we'll you will all have to work in in your direction. So you will have to work on the look and feel design, to have the easy to use, powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah.

Uh you will have to work more, Baba, on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons.

expensive buttons Yeah, to make some new.

and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control.

Yeah.

And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too.

Yeah, no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends.

Yeah.

Okay, fruits.

Yeah.

If possible.

Okay.

And remember as as I said last meeting, we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really it will be seen in the remote control.

Need it to be, okay.

So you will have Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control,

Yeah.

Okay.

so you will have to model model something.

Okay. Yep

And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach.

Okay.

So,

Okay.

no more questions, we can close the session.

Sounds good, mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah. Okay, cool.

Okay.

Question: Can you provide a quick summary of the meeting?

Response: The participants discussed three concepts for the new remote control user interface: A Google-like controller, a fancy controller, and an intelligent controller. They agreed to focus on the first two and combine them into one concept. The team also agreed to add solar energy and battery alimentation to the remote control, along with low-level chips. Finally, they decided to explore the option of adding a vocal command recognition module to the product.

Question: Why did they decide to combine the Google-like and fancy controller concepts into one?

Response: The participants agreed that a Google-like controller is functional but impersonal, while a fancy controller is visually appealing but not functional. They felt that combining the two concepts would result in a remote control that is both easy to use and visually appealing.

Question: What were User Interface's thoughts regarding the intelligent controller concept?

Response: User Interface suggested that they should make their controller smart by using speech recognition and gesture recognition technology, as it is more convenient to use voice or gesture than buttons. If the user cannot find the controller, they can just speak to give commands.

Question: Regarding the surface material of the remote control, what was the final decision?

Response: The participants ultimately decided to use wood for the case of the remote control. They felt that wood would be a good choice because it is a natural material that is associated with eco-friendliness. Additionally, they believed that wood would provide a spongy feel to the remote control, which would make it more comfortable to hold.

Question: Besides wood, were there any other materials considered for the case of the remote control?

Response: Yes, the participants also considered using plastic for the case of the remote control. However, they ultimately decided against plastic because they felt that it would not provide the same spongy feel as wood.

Question: Why did the Marketing participant say that the user is more interested in the fancy look and feel of the remote control rather than the functional look and feel?

Response: The Marketing participant mentioned that users are currently interested in a fancy look and feel because the fashion trend in general is leaning towards a design inspired by fruits and vegetables.

Question: What was the main objective of the meeting?

Response: The main objective of the meeting was to finalize the design concept for the new remote control. The participants discussed various aspects of the remote control's design, including the user interface, the case material, and the power source. They also discussed the possibility of adding a vocal command recognition module to the remote control.

Question: Did the participants decide to solely use a Google-like controller for the remote control's user interface?

Response: No, they decided to combine the Google-like controller and the fancy controller into one concept. This was because they felt that a Google-like controller is functional but impersonal, while a fancy controller is visually appealing but not functional. They believed that combining the two concepts would result in a remote control that is both easy to use and visually appealing.

Question: What was the group's final decision regarding the power source for the remote control?

Response: The participants decided to use a combination of solar energy and batteries for the remote control's power source. They felt that this would be a good option because it would allow users to use the remote control even when there is no sunlight available.

Question: What was the advantage of using rubber for the remote control's buttons?

Response: The participants decided to use rubber for the remote control's buttons as it would give that spongy feel to the remote control.


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.

Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.

Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.

Which is a big problem.

Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.

And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.

Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us,'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.

Kay, is that your experience?

Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.

Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.

Do you mind if I carry on in English—

Fine.

—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.

What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?

I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.

I will carry on in English, if that's okay.

Yes, it's no problem.

I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be,'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.

Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.

So, do we get rid of it?

You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]

I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?

I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.

I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.

Suzy, you've got a supplementary.

Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.

Okay. Have you finished? Janet.

Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.

I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.

Okay. Thank you.

Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.

If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.

Thank you.

And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.

Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.

That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—

Great advocates.

—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.

Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.

Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying,'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.

And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.

Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?

Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.

Did you have a supplementary, Siân?

Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.

Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.

Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.

Siân.

Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.

I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.

But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.

No, there is no problem there.

Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.

Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?

Right.

Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think,'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.

I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.

What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?

Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.

Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.

It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.

I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.

On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.

I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.

Suzy, you had a supplementary.

Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?

I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.

Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.

Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.

And obviously practice will differ across schools.

Julie, did you have any more questions?

No, I've finished, thank you.

We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.

Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.

That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say,'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say,'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.

Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.

No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people,'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'

Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?

Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.

Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.

Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.

Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?

We've forced—. No, sorry,'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.

So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.

Yes.

I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it,'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.

Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.

We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills'soft' there—.

Call them'commercial'.

Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of,'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.

That's great. Thank you.

Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?

And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?

As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying,'Come to us for this particular reason.'

No, but does anybody come to you and say,'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?

The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.

And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?

It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.

Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them,'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?

No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.

I'm being devil's advocate.

Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is,'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'

But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought,'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.

Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.

That's a question.

You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?

We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.

We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.

But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.

It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.

Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.

Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?

I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.

And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.

And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—

On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.

I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking,'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'

Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.

Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.

And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.

I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.

I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.

Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.

Question: Can you condense the key points from the Children, Young People, and Education Committee meeting that occurred on the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification?

Response:
Here are the key points from the meeting about the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification:

* Representatives from ColegauCymru and the Civil Engineering Contractors Association shared their views on the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification.
* Employers generally do not understand what the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification includes or what it is for.
* The qualification is perceived as rigorous and demanding, which puts pressure on students and staff.
* This perception has led to a decrease in the number of students taking the qualification at Levels 1 and 2.
* There is a difference of opinion among further education professionals about the value of the qualification at different levels.

Question: What was decided about the potential implementation of a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification?

Response: The meeting did not reach a conclusion regarding the potential implementation of a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification. However, the participants discussed the matter and shared differing opinions. Some participants felt that such a qualification would enhance the status and perception of the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification. Others argued that the vocational lecturers who currently deliver the qualification already possess the necessary skills and that creating a separate qualification would be unnecessary.

Question: Besides differing opinions, was a final decision reached concerning the potential training and teaching qualifications needed to deliver the Welsh Baccalaureate?

Response: No final decision was reached regarding the potential training and teaching qualifications needed to deliver the Welsh Baccalaureate. The participants discussed the matter and presented differing opinions.

Question: What did Dafydd Evans recommend doing to improve the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification?

Response:
Dafydd Evans recommended:
* Reviewing the qualification and ensuring employer input.
* Ensuring employability and entrepreneurship skills have more of a role.
* Replacing the qualification with a skills certificate.

Question: What did Ed Evans propose doing to improve the perception of the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification among parents and young people?

Response:
Ed Evans proposed:
* Engaging with employers to sell the vision of the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification.
* Involving employers in schools and colleges to deliver the qualification.
* Linking contractual clauses that tie in employers to schools and colleges.

Question: Summarize the main points of the meeting regarding the progress of STEM education in Wales?

Response: The topic of STEM education in Wales was not discussed in the meeting. Therefore, I cannot provide a summary of the main points regarding its progress.

Question: Summarize the main points of the meeting regarding the progress of the performing arts in Wales?

Response: The topic of performing arts in Wales was not discussed in the meeting. Therefore, I cannot provide a summary of the main points regarding its progress.

Question: What was their biggest area of agreement on improving the qualification?

Response: The participants agreed that employer input is crucial for improving the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification. They also agreed that the qualification should focus more on employability and entrepreneurship skills.

Question: What was their view on the status of the qualification?

Response: The participants agreed that the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification is perceived as rigorous and demanding, which puts pressure on students and staff. They also agreed that there has been a decrease in the uptake of the qualification at Levels 1 and 2 due to this perception.

Question: Was the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification facing its challenges prior to the COVID-19 pandemic?

Response:
Here are the main points of agreement regarding the challenges faced by the Welsh Baccalaureate Qualification:

* Employers generally do not understand the purpose or value of the qualification.
* The qualification is perceived as too rigorous and demanding for students and staff.
* This perception has led to a decrease in the number of students taking Levels 1 and 2 of the qualification.
* Further education professionals have differing opinions about the qualification's value at different levels.