Do you need to change anything on it? Because otherwise I will already open it.

Um Mm, don't think so.

Okay.

Unless uh things have suddenly change again.

Is it much changes?

Uh don't know. Maybe uh you've got new information, like uh last time.

Uh I didn't No no. I do hot have Only the same information..

Okay.

Hello, Sebastian.

Hello hello Mister P_M_.

I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well, in the control room.

Well, that's where the thinking goes on..

Oh, it's that Roo again, always late.

Bongiorno.

Bongiorno.

I think you should punish him.

Hmm..

You're the P_M_..

Punish..

I see some interesting.

okay.

You wish..

Possibilities, yeah?.

People, welcome back.

Welcome. Uh.

The third meeting..

Oop.

Um I have some points I would like to uh some some issues I would like to point out. Um first of all, um if you make minutes yourself as well, uh like Sebastian does, um could you put them on the shared folder? If you do not make minutes, no problem, but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down,

Yeah.

so I could uh can uh um use that in the in the report. Um the second thing, um I was th uh s thinking to myself, I have this little remote control, and I'm talking to it, but I still need to point to the television, because it works with infrared. That's quite strange.

Yes.

Okay. We'll come to that later, I g I think.

So.

Um the agenda for now uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions?

No.

Not at all.

Okay. Um

No.

we wi we will have your individual presentations, uh then the decision on the remote control concept, um and uh the closing. Forty minutes in total for this. So um I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations, um the progress you've made.

Okay.

Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first, because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation.

'Kay. Hmm?

Alright.

Oh.

Just press the okay button, it works.

Yeah, Okay.

Um yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. My method?.

How surprising..

Well, findings. Uh Ease of use is important, but uh innovation is more important, and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important. And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes, shoes and furniture,

and that they want spongy material. Probably watch too much Sponge Bob.

Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours. Simple shapes uh m material. But we since we are concentrating on uh the younger group.

Uh w wait a sec wait a se

Oh wait uh wait up.

uh could you go to the previous slide? Um because I'm taking minutes

'Kay.

Um were the important themes enclose. Yeah okay. The feel of to be spongy.

Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also?

Well, uh one example given was this, so um I assume they just want something colourful. Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something.

Not something dull.

But they like dark colours,

Okay.

you said in the p

No, uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects.

Okay. Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow.

But.

I had.

But can you can you go back to that slide? The uh

Which one?

just one slide back,

This?

no no no. Yes. Okay, and the feel of the material has to be spongy.

Yes.

Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also, do you think?.

Uh well, it might.

But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control. But Maybe soft material or something. But not a real sponge.

Okay, so so, yeah, it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard. It it maybe it rubber or or.

Yeah, exactly.

yeah. Okay.

Yeah, and like uh the older group likes familiar materials,

Or we could make oh.

but that doesn't mean we should use wood, So.

Okay.

Well, this this is an example of what they would like. But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group, I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones, exch exchangeable covers.

Yeah.

So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like.

Well, that's interesting.

It's quite interesting..

You could make a few v very colourful ones, and uh a very traditional co cover.

Yeah, o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh telephone from uh Siemens. The yellow uh rubber telephone.

Yes..

Yeah, yeah.

It's the it's the rubber uh cover.

Yeah, it is, it is i yeah.

And it's uh colourful.

Yeah.

It looks likes a banana. We have the fruit, we have the colours. We have the simple design.

Do you know the phone?

I don't know the phone,

It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five,

but I can imagine it.

I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away,

Um thirty five.

Oh, that one, yes.

the very.

And the b the light blue and it's also in yellow.

Now I kn uh oh, I know, I know. Yes, I I've seen it. I've seen it.

You kn you know, Ruud, as well? About th

I've seen it,

Okay. Okay. Um uh

but.

okay. Do you have uh thit that was.

'Kay. Uh that's about it.

Okay. Okay, so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the our target group.

Yes.

And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials.

Uh soft material.

Okay.

So So ease of use is important, but technology is twice as important. And what was even more important?

Uh the fancy look and feel.

Okay. So that's the most important thing for our customers.

Yes. Apparently.

Okay, Roo,

Yeah.

could you do your presentation?

Mm-hmm. Well, I don't ha really have much to add, um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion. Um.

Okay, well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about.

Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume. Well, a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these. These are both with uh with voice recognition, but they're very advanced and very high-tech and just um, well, a weird um shape.

Shape.

So I suggest I couldn't uh I had a small uh mock-up uh sign on the on paper.

But it didn't work. My pen didn't load um the information. So I made a really simple f uh a shape on uh in um PowerPoint. But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control. Uh yellow.

Mm-hmm. But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic, so that's very good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what I'm thinking about, maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um I mean this is how you hold a remote control.

Yes.

Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt, too slippery,

Slippery.

s because um.

But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone, it's rubber.

You have to grab it.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So it's easy in your hand Uh indeed.

Yeah.

Yes. There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in,

Yeah, ex for your fingers, yeah.

Yeah.

so you can get a really good grip on it. So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it. It's it's a lot easier.

Yeah. It grips automatically. Yeah,.

So m Yes.

okay.

But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation.

Okay, good.

Great..

Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information, in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh, well, the the fancy colours and uh and so on, and still have the ease of use, because we have an easy interface. And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on.

Yeah. Way too much I think for our goal,

Yeah.

yeah.

So if you have the voice recognition, you can you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it.

Okay, b but I think we'll.

Okay, but I'll I'll go into that,

yeah.

because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities. Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division, and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design. Uh these are the things we've looked at. And of course I used the web to uh find my information. About the casing, we have three different casing possibilities. We have the uncurved or flat case. Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a it ju it's just a box. I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing. We have uh a curved one. It's uh curved in two dimensions. You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form. So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape.

Okay.

Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape, which is curved in three dimension. I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation. The the big remote control, something like that.

Yeah. Right.

But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think. Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing. We can use plastic, which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice, but you can give it any colour, uh which is the same for rubber, but it's not slippery. We can use wood and titanium. Well, um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases. And these latex cases, there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source source. Which brings me to the different energy sources. Um well, we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh remote controls.

You really have to imagine like winding up your uh

Great..

Well, it would be very new to the market,

I d

but.

It would be very new,

but it's a kind of a retro uh style, I think.

Yeah..

Uh Well,

this is quite interesting. Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply. So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're you you have to um make some kind of energy kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall, whatever you wish.

Like the watch.

It have it it has to move, that's the the sense of it. And you can store the energy in the in the thing.

I think um, if if I can hook on to that, um the kinetic thing is very funny.

Mm-hmm. It's very funny indeed.

I mean solar is of course it's nice, but it's, well, your uh your calculator has a solar panel.

Mm-hmm. Indeed.

Um hand dynamo.

But if you're watching a movie, how many times uh you take the the remote control and and.

Well, maybe m

if uh if you have a watch, you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also.

Yeah, I know.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

You you walk

Yeah.

and uh but uh you you're sitting on a couch.

But you know you know from your own watch your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy. the the shaking of your body, which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake, uh it charges it. But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy. So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a in an amount of time, and you want t to switch uh the channel or something,

Yeah. And wha

well, m it might not work. So that's something you have to keep in mind.

Okay.

So, but maybe maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries, so we can save on the batteries

Yeah.

and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy, use the kinetic energy, and otherwise use the batteries.

Okay, because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power.

Uh yes, it does.

Yeah.

I'll come to that later.

Okay.

And we of course have the traditional uh solar power, which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity. The user interface controls, um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels. And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons. So it's just like a mouse. You can scroll'em, you can also push it. Um uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays, which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently.

Mm-hmm.

uh and we also have double scroll-buttons, which are just two of these things. So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting, the the thing with the the round with the four.

Mm-hmm. Oh, we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round.

Yes. That is possible too. Yes.

But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels I had some I had some information about it too.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels.

Well.

I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it.

Well, mayb uh well, m me neither. Maybe when you integrate some functions.

This will be the remote, right?

Yeah.

Um with uh maybe a channel selector. What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side?

Yeah, uh that's a possibility,

Uh it's do it's done before.

Because this is how you keep it.

but.

Yes. It's quite quite good, yes.

But Flores, think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for.

Volume?

Well, it's it well, i what he means is there's an button integrated in the scroll-wheel.

A volume, okay.

There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel. You just use the wheel.

Well, what about mute?

About mute.

Thi i i m I guess uh th

Well, yes.

this is my volume button. And I can either on this side or this side um.

Okay. Yes. Well, okay. Well, that that that's one possibility, okay.

And click it to muten the device.

Well, okay. It's quite goods.

And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market. So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

So maybe um I guess that that's something you two uh need to think about.

Yeah.

Uh Ruud, wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar? Uh scroll-wheel.

Um Uh well,

Wheel.

it's obvious obviously new. So it might attract uh the young customers.

Okay.

Hmm. But it's done before, uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio, pocket radios. We use this.

Yeah.

And Well, it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now.

Well, all the Sony telephones use it, for example, for volume.

So maybe it's not no.

Nokia has a well, okay, it's not really a scroll-wheel, but on their side th the the volume button is on the side, because you gri grab it like this.

Hmm. Yes, but it uses two separate buttons.

Yeah. I know, it's not really a scroll-wheel. No. Yeah.

It doesn't use a. Well. Uh something for uh Roo here..

For you too, yeah.

Yeah, I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said, um the grip uh places in in the remote control. You have your hand on one place on the remote control, so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb.

Wi within reach. Yes, you have to.

So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect.

Yes. yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Okay. Sebastian. Um.

Okay, um we have to know, if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case, um you must use these push uh push-buttons. There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays. There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels, because it's all curved.

Yeah.

There's there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things. So that's a limitation. About um the components, uh just the hardware. We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal. Uh we have a simple, regular and advanced chip. And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker, which is a little cryptic uh to me. But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about.

Yeah yeah, you can um I have some information about it. Uh in the voice recognition you say a word you can programme words like uh v uh volume up. Of mute, let's say mute.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So so.

Um you programme it, you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function

okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

and uh when you speak in the the remote control, it repeats uh your saying. that's the sample sensor. So So if you say mute, it says mute again,

Okay.

and then it's um well, I believe it's uh.

Mm-hmm.

It performs the action. Yeah.

Yeah, and then uh he he repeats its action what which he believes it is.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you say mute, he repeats mute and you makes a computer sound mute, and then goes to the mute function.

Okay. Okay, so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for. Okay. This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip, I thought. Um no op I'm not very sure. No, it's not in here. If we want to use the L_C_D_ display, we really need the advanced version, which is a bit l little bit more costly. If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version. And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip, which is a bit cheaper.

Okay. Uh well uh

Okay.

d did we already decide on the display? To.

Um no, but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about.

Yeah. Well, I don't have um I haven't looked for uh for information about it, but I don't think information uh y I don't think you need it on a display.

No.

Especially when when we have to look at a cost, I don't think uh.

I I don't think either.

'cause uh uh all any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen,

No. I don't think you need it.

On screen display. Yeah.

yeah.

Okay

Okay. Okay, well

th

my conclusion, um unfortunately the market has decided the a little uh other than I thought. I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing, but they seem to like natural uh stuff. So maybe we should think about uh wood finish. Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy. It's more reliable, it's cheaper.

Okay. Good.

So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing..

Kineti okay.

The kinetic thing it it's it's a possibility. It's it's more advanced, but I'm I think you should combine it with batteries.

Okay, it's maybe a bit too too flashy,

Otherwise it will not too advanced,

too.

uh well.

yeah.

It's in in in some way it can give us an advance, because you will save on your batteries.

Yeah, but that that's the same with the solar cell. That's no different.

But Yes. And I think it's more robust.

Yeah. Okay.

It's more uh Uh it's more functional.

But what about um the markets uh wants colourfuls uh designs? So if you use titanium.

No no, but the uh um that's what Sebastian said.

The titanium thing uh we have to skip it..

He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference. But but yet, I understood that the market is different.

Okay. Oh,

So um.

sorry. Yeah.

So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff,

Yeah.

and we should uh use wood or something like that.

No,

And I would think.

And

r

yeah,

rubber with colours.

the yeah, the older people liked wood.

Oh okay, sorry. So it it needs to be rubber.

No the.

Colourful and.

Okay.

Yeah, the younger people liked soft material.

Yeah.

Okay, spongy materials.

Yeah..

Okay, um well um these scroll-wheels, I think uh they they can be they can be handy.

And they can be implemented with a regular chip?

So Yes, they can. But they really need the regular chip, you cannot use the sa simple.

Okay, but we also uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker.

Well, I'm not very sure. Maybe that's an uh a different.

oh,

But but do we want the curved uh uh design,

evalu

or.

I think so, if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design, i uh it's too dull.

I it's too dull. Yeah.

I don't think c our customers will like it.

Yeah.

And um if you uh take the double-curved, uh then you cannot um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So I think this is the best of two worlds.

Okay, what about um the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue. Because it it's of cour

Yes. It's it's uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device.

Yeah.

It's very unlogical.

But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all.

Well.

Well the there has to be some pointing at. But.

It depends also on your on your.

Well, if you if you take your hand before it, okay, it won't work, but you can point it just to the other wall.

Well, it depends on your walls actually. If you have uh have um smooth walls, it it it probably you're probably right.

Yeah.

But if you have carpets on the wall, which our natural loving friends probably do have, then um yeah, th th it might be a bit more of a issue.

All lights get absorbed, yeah..

So.

Yes, because the walls they they reflect the infrared light.

Yeah.

So it has an it's easier. Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample. Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker. Um with a with a regular chip.

And the regular chip.

I think uh it gives us the advantage of.

And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels. Yeah.

Yes, yes.

I like the scroll wheels uh idea.

And uh skip and skip the L_C_D_ part.

Yeah.

I don't think it it's any uh value added thing.

No. Think so too.

So.

Well, it looks uh yeah, well um

Okay.

according to Ruud, the the the market likes um new flashy technology,

Technology.

and I mean L_C_D_ is.

Yes. It's not very flashy and new.

well, ok I know, but it's m it's less um s standard

Standard?

than than Well, we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part. That's the problem.

Mm-hmm.

Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance, I would say do integrate it,

Mm-hmm.

because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it.

Yes.

But we already have the scroll-wheels, the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition, the rubber, the fancy colours.

Mm yeah.

Uh I think our customers will go insane.

Okay, okay.

It's it's too much.

Yeah. Okay, I I agree. I think i Ruud, do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or.

Nah, um n no, I don't think so. M

No? Sebast uh nee, Roo? Roo, do you have any other.

Um no. Nothing more.

Nothing more. Um.

Okay. Uh the n the next phase will be um the um not the.

Sebas

what is the next phase f Flores?

Well, we we need to describe uh decisions now.

Okay.

So um

So i

on the energy, well, we decided.

Okay.

Chip.

Okay.

The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve.

Okay, okay.

User interface um

Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case? Yeah, okay.

Yes, they can work.

Sorry, yeah.

They cannot work with double-curved.

Oh, sorry. Yeah.

That's that's problem. I'll check it for you.

Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product. I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian. Uh you talked about it before, the colours, grey and yellow.

Yeah.

Keep it in mind. And um the buttons, well we talked about it now. The next phase, um Sebastian, um is um the design of the look and feel. The user interface design.

Yes. Mm-hmm.

And for you, the product evaluation. Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that.

Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard.

Okay.

And I'm going uh to plan my holidays..

Okay.

The project drawing is for the next.

So you will be on the Bahamas. Uh.

Yeah, it's it's uh when we come back in thirty minutes, uh you will have a uh prototype ready.

Yeah, right.

Okay. So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made?

Yeah? I can. Um maybe one of you could write it down.

I'll do.

Great. Um Uh you you need to help me. Um.

Okay. W start with the casing.

The casing is curved, single-curved.

Single-curved.

Okay, single-curved case. Okay. What about the energy source?

Traditional batteries uh and solar.

But can there be uh wor can they work together? Or do we have to choose between them?

No,

'Cause if we have to choose.

they can be complementary. Uh al al I uh.

yeah?

I I think they can. Yes.

Okay.

Well, uh.

Every device.

What if not?

It it should be. There should be really no problem.

Okay.

They can be supplementary. That's no problem.

Yeah. Okay, um

So.

th

So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar.

Battery and solar, yeah.

Okay. What about uh the finishing of the case? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber?

Yeah, with colourful rubber.

Yeah.

Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers, but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish.

Okay, and I think we should use the company colours. Something like black and red. uh black and yellow.

Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow. Yeah.

Grey and yellow.

Grey yellow, okay.

Yellow case and grey buttons, I think.

Yeah, although I don't think that's very colourful. Except for the yellow of course,

Hmm.

but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours.

Oh, I think it's uh it's not very dull. It's quite modern actually. Don't you think?

Well, I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before.

I believe the But you have already um you must have a red uh on and off button. And um Well well.

Well, it it doesn't have to be red. Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for. Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours, it should be a full colour cover with such an image

Hmm.

or or I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group, I guess.

Okay.

Or black and yellow.

Black and yellow, yeah.

Okay,

but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device. Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself. But.

Well, there is. Just a week ago, a keyboard manufacturer would print,

Oh, I've read.

Yeah.

with and uh.

Yes. Yes,

No.

but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques. They're actually very slow in its techniques.

Okay, so we have to deal with wh what's possible here.

So So I'm afraid it's not possible.

Yeah. Okay. Um more f more more decisions we made. Um Um.

A scroll-wheel.

The scroll-heel. Yes, the voice recognition we already decided.

Voice recognition, of course.

Okay, so scroll-wheel. But there will be some additional buttons, I guess.

Yeah.

And th the they should be spongy also, because they're they're rubber too.

Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two..

What what did you say?

Well uh you can use well, when you use the buttons, they'll they'll be made of rubber too.

Yeah.

So it has th the spongy uh feel also.

Yeah.

Yeah, or you could use plastic buttons. In the rubber.

I think rubber is nice. Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button, and what do they want spongy uh uh devices, or or i

Yeah, b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually.

What I said in the in the first uh discussion, uh the digit six on the button, it will disappear when it's from rubber.

Uh is that uh does our our supplier say so?

It is not uh something uh it's no information I read about it or so, but it's just from.

Uh didn't did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition?

No, but but uh it.

'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button.

Yeah. You could place a um uh this this would be the button.

There the icons.

The scroll-wheel, I mean. And you could place the indica th th the signals the.

Yeah, b yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, that's possible,

That's okay.

So you don't touch the icons that much.

but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case. So still then, if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control, you just rub on the cover, so you rub on the painting.

No no, there's no painting, only uh yellow or But it's into the rubber.

Yeah. Yeah, but but the the plus or the minus.

Yeah, but this is on the pla

You have to draw the.

Yes, the signs.

yeah, I know. Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean.

Yeah, it's on the cover. So if you uh You just move the problem.

What about um making this rubber and making this plastic?

Uh I see what you mean. Well, maybe that's possible, because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing. So maybe they can combine these two.

Yeah. Well actually, we should have it the other way around, I guess. A plastic cover with rubber finishing. I mean, this is this is the finishing. This is um what's on the edge. What you feel.

Yeah.

But the front, on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber.

Mm-hmm.

I mean.

Well, I'm I'm not so sure,

Y uh can you separate these uh these.

I think it c should be Well, I'm not sure, I have to ask with manufacturing, but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want, because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel, and that's what you get with rubber. So if you want the spongy feel, you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber.

I know, but do you touch this or do you touch this?

I think both.

I mean, I I never touch between the buttons.

I do..

I do.

Or the s uh the sideways.

I think.

Or the the back. Or the back.

Yeah, the side, exactly, the sideways. The side, but do you touch between the the these buttons?

I think Yes, especially when there are l a few buttons on it, you have uh a lot of space to touch. So you just have it in your hand completely or or i you play with it.

Okay. Well, we do not have very much time uh left. Um I guess you two have to figure that out. I'm going to leave the decision to you,

Yeah.

um because you have to make its prototype, and um yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers, the possibilities and uh.

Yeah.

Okay.

so I'm going to leave it the decision with you. Um Sebastian, did you write enough decisions down?

Um not quite. Um what about uh the chips? We use the regular chip?

Regular.

Okay.

Yeah.

And.

Use with.

Well no, I think that's about it. Yes.

Okay. With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions. The chip is is not really.

The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_. That's all.

Okay, well.

And we've decided not to use L_C_D_.

Yeah. Okay.

So.

Um okay, then I think we are uh quite finished. Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um.

. For the finishing touch.

Yeah? Yeah, um if you write wrote anything down, uh could you put it on the shared folder?

Okay. Okay.

Uh yeah.

Yeah.

But um Sebastian has everything.

I know, but well.

I'll put it online.

Great..

Right.

Question: What questions were raised during the meeting that were left unresolved?

Response: In the meeting, the participants were unable to reach a decision regarding the type of buttons to use. The possibility was raised to have rubber buttons with plastic finishing or plastic buttons with rubber finishing. They left the decision to the industrial designer and the user interface designers.

Question: Apart from the disagreement over the buttons, were there any other differences that arose during the meeting?

Response: The participants also had a disagreement over the colors to be used on the device. The project manager wanted flashy colors that would appeal to younger people but the industrial designer thought that gray and yellow would be more attractive and modern.

Question: Why did the industrial designer prefer the color combination of gray and yellow over the project manager's suggestion of flashy colors?

Response:
The industrial designer believed that the color combination of gray and yellow would be more attractive and modern because:

* They considered it to be a modern color combination.
* They thought that it would be more appealing to both the older and younger target groups.
* They did not think that flashy colors would be as attractive or appealing.

Question: Why did the project manager prefer flashy colors?

Response:
The project manager preferred flashy colors because:

* They believed that flashy colors would be more appealing to the younger target group.
* They thought that flashy colors were more innovative and modern.
* They believed that flashy colors would make the device stand out from the competition.

Question: Apart from the disagreements over the color of the device and the type of buttons to be used, were there any other unresolved issues that arose during the meeting?

Response: No, there were no other unresolved issues that arose during the meeting. The participants were able to reach a consensus on the other aspects of the device, including the casing, energy source, user interface, and chip.

Question: What was decided regarding the type of buttons to be used on the device?

Response: The participants were unable to reach a decision regarding the type of buttons to use. They left the decision to the industrial designer and the user interface designers.

Question: What was decided regarding the material to be used on the surface of the buttons?

Response: The participants were unable to reach a decision regarding the material to be used. They left the decision to the industrial designer and the user interface designers.

Question: What was their compromise on the colors?

Response: The participants were unable to reach a compromise on the colors to be used on the device. The project manager suggested using flashy colors to appeal to younger people, while the industrial designer preferred the combination of gray and yellow, which they believed to be more attractive and appealing to both the older and younger target groups.

Question: What was decided regarding the material for the device's case?

Response: The participants decided to use a curved, single-curved case with a combination of battery and solar energy sources. The casing would have a rubber finishing with the corporate colors gray and yellow.

Question: What was Ruud's opinion on the use of scroll wheels?

Response: There is no participant named as Ruud in the meeting.


Alright, so I'm - I should read all of these numbers?

OK.

Piece of paper? I could borrow?

Oh yeah.

OK, so uh i um I don't know whether Ami's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started.

Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here?

Nancy's still stick?

Don't know. Anyway

OK.

Oh, so there you go. Anyway, so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links, you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones. The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there's and the idea was we were gonna do two things

Is your mike on?

Ah. Oh right, well. Yeah. We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what

That's funny.

and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we what we need to do. Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it. So I didn't did you get a chance to look at all yet?

Yeah, I looked at some of that stuff.

Great. OK so let's start with the uh belief - nets, the general influence stuff and then we'll then we'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff.

Well I think one could go there's I think we can di discuss everything. First of all this I added, I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right? Um

Oh are you gonna go there or not? Yeah, so one i

Given given uh uh not transverse the castle, the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just

Right, true. Does have to be there. And I'm sure we'll find more as we go that

And Hmm? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones. We can start with that. Interesting effect. Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we'll get

Well.

Which one?

what?

" Go there ".

m right.

so there is this question about

Here we we actually get just probabilities,

Yeah.

right for each down here.

When we're yeah when we're done. So so

Hmm.

the the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it's, you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all,

Mm - hmm.

right? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could two different things you could do, you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you're going there when.

When. How.

Yeah and so forth.

Why,

So I'll let

yeah.

we'll see.

Hmm?

I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary, Go - there and then the the possibilities of how to go there because.

OK, that's let's start that way.

because, you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time.

Hmm. Hmm. OK. And so I've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A. We should be be clear. But when it comes to sort of writing down when you when you do these things is it here? You sort of have to a write the values this can take.

Right.

And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um this case it's pretty simple, but as we will see the other ones um for example if it's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished.

Hmm.

No uh

How can I write here that this is something, a number that cr keeps on changing? But OK. Thus is understandable?

Think so.

Yes.

So here for example.

You've s have you seen this before at all Keith, these belief - net things?

Uh, no, but I think I'm following it. So far.

So here is the the we had that the user's budget may influence the outcome of decisions.

Yeah.

Hmm.

There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things.

Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend? OK, h well I mean how is it different from user finance?

Um the finance is sort of here thought of as as the financial policy a person carries out in his life, he is he cheap, average, or spendy?

Alright.

And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know, I didn't want to write greediness, but

Yeah. Hmm.

Or cheapness.

Welcome.

User thrift.

Welcome.

Thrift, that's good.

Yeah.

Great.

There it is.

Yeah. So Keith w what's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff.

Mm - hmm.

So this is not just a display, this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end.

OK. OK.

And it's so simple even I can use it.

Wow, that is simple.

OK, so here was OK, I can think of uh people being cheap, average, or spendy or we can even have a a finer scale moderately cheap,

Doesn't matter.

doesn't matter. Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in.

Let's go ahead.

Well, I mean you've written in you've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is is do you want?

If that's permissible then I'm happy.

Well yeah. So here's here's what's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it's not a belief update, right? It's you took some actions, you spent money and stuff, so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net. Right?

Yeah.

And then what you're going to need is uh for the things that it influences. Well let's first of all let's see if it does influence anything. And if it does influence anything then you're gonna need something that converts from the the number here to something that's relevant to the decision there. So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things.

Hmm. Yeah this is where um OK anyways let's forget it.

Well that's fine. Well anyway, go ahead.

OK, and so this, oh that

The other thing is that um every time that's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it's updated or only when we need to?

Yeah, that's a good question. And uh does it have a lazy mode? I don't remember.

Uh Well, I mean, in Srini's thing there was this thing there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen, automatically.

Oh right. Yeah. S probably does. Yeah someone has to track that down, but I but uh And and and I think actually uh

I just accidentally Oops.

one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local. I they're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they're staying.

Well

Oh just uh accidentally erased this, I I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had " Is he staying in our hotel? ", " Is he staying with friends? ", and so forth

Yeah.

uh so we're OK.

So it's clear where w w w where we are right now. So my suggestion is we just pick uh

Something down here?

one, you know one uh particular one of the uh well let's do the first first one let's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the of the endpoint?

Mm - hmm. And um Oops.

Is hmm

Ah,

So it's true or false?

No, that's that's a

OK. No no no, EVA.

So

Missed that one.

What's the difference between mode and endpoint?

I thought mode, yeah.

although that

Um mode was um

Well, that's

Mode of transportation?

Yeah.

OK. Also true or false.

Mm - hmm.

No, he has he hasn't filled them in yet, is what's true.

Yeah, OK.

Did I or didn't I?  Ah. Probably nothing done yet, oh I just did it on the upper ones, OK. Makes sense. OK, so this was EVA. Maybe we can think of more things, cross

Yeah.

Climb, rob.

OK.

climb, emerge

No no no, these are ju that's just a point,

Uh

Well some of those are subsumed by approach.

this is ju

Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it?

The Charles Bridge, you know.

Yeah, would be a f for a given segment. You know, you y you go first go the town square

Well I eh

No, I mean, if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which where you end up at the end but the part the good part is walking over it, so.

That's subtle, but true. Anyway so let's just leave it three with three for now

Mm - hmm, mmm. Yeah.

and let's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started.

OK, we

You'll see it you'll see something comes up immediately, that the reason I wanna do this.

w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he's a local

Right. Right.

more likely to view if he's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um

We did, but the three things w that that it contributed to this in fact, the other two aren't up there. so one was the ontology

We'll d what type of building is it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse.

What he has mentioned before.

OK, so this is w Right, so what w I what we seem to need here, this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff

mm - hmm

the way we had been designing this, there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse. So each of those the way we had it designed, now we can change the design, but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations

mm - hmm

so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes

Uh we can load it up it you know very simple.

So

and then what you and I have to talk about is, OK if we're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined? But the they're they're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about.

So this was adjusted for this one mode thing.

Oh yes.

Yeah.

So that's w w in our uh in in Johno's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter, view, or approach something.

Oh, it was called mode, so this this is m mode here means the same as endpoint.

Is now this endpoint.

Right.

OK, why don't we ch can we change that?

We can just rename that, yeah.

Alright. You know, but that was actually, yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that's I don't think what we would currently do.

Can I ask about " slurred " and " angry " as inputs to this?

That's a

What why?

Like they're either true or false

The prosody?

OK.

and they uh oh I see.

If the if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or, you know

Mm - hmm. OK. Drunk.

Therefore

And, you know, possibly uh

Less likely to enter.

some,

Hmm.

yeah.

uh I was thinking less likely to view

Yeah. But that's - that seems to, yeah. So so my advice to do is is get this down to what we think is actually likely to to be a a strong influence.

OK.

But yeah, that was what he had in mind.

Right.

So let's think about this this question of how do we wanna handle so there're two separate things. One is uh at least two. One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about, and this is another technical thing Bhaskara, is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items. So the let's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing, the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site, you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter

Mm - hmm.

OK, et cetera. So that there'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set, so that some somehow someone would find this word, look it up in the ontology, pull out these properties, put it into the belief - net, and then the decision would flow.

Mm - hmm.

Now

Seems to me that we've sort of e em embedded a lot, em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in in in some of the other final decisions done here, for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um

Right. Right.

if it's exhibiting itself it is a landmark,

Yeah.

meaning more likely to be viewed

Yep.

if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this, then it's more likely to be entered.

I uh that's I think that's completely right and um I think that's good, right? So what what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling

Accessibility.

no, accessibility meant

If it's closed one probably won't enter. Or if it's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it,

OK.

given that he knows it, of course.

Alright. So let me suggest this. Uh w could you move those up about halfway. Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess.

Yeah, all all of these if it's fixing things selling things, or servicing things

Right. So here here's what it looks like to me. is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of of uh selling, f fixing, or servicing. So that it uh that is, for certain purposes, it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other. Does that seem right? So we di

Basic you're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision?

if we Yes.

Yeah.

Mm - hmm.

So if well it may be more than endpoint decisions, so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three

These three?

Yeah. Eh ser s uh selling, fixing, and servicing.

Yeah.

What ex um and so either those is true f or false?

Uh Uh well it it i here's where it gets a little tricky.

So

Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it's interest it's it's important to know what it's selling or servicing and so forth.

Yeah.

So for this decision it's just uh true or false

OK. Yeah.

and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want.

OK.

That that if any of those things is true then it's the kind of place that you uh

Um more likely to enter.

are more likely to enter.

So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing?

You could, yeah. Yeah, so let's do that. No no, no eh to to an inter no, an intermediate node.

T

Oh, OK.

That's the p part of the idea, is

Um is is that the object type node?

I d

So are they the is it the kind of object that sells, fixes, or services things?

Well, o open up object type and let's see what its values are.

Oh I just created it, it has none so far.

Oh, well OK first of all it's not objects, we called them entities, right?

Yeah. And then we have sort of the um

Let's say I put commercial.

Yeah, I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p

Well couldn't I do let's do commercial uh landmark and

And where was the accessible, yeah.

Well accessible I think is different cuz that's tempor that that varies temporally,

Yeah.

whereas this is a

Mm - hmm.

What would a hotel fall under?

I would call that a service, but but I don't know.

Well I mean in terms of entity type?

Say w w well it's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it's commercial. Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business.

OK.

Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify?

Um things. So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things.

Uh - huh. OK. OK. That also points to entity type I guess.

So we're deriving um this the this feature of whether the the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity?

Well you could, that's a that's a choice.

OK.

So uh

I mean it seems like that's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else

Yeah, the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision,

and Hmm.

now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway, this i

OK.

at a mental level that's what we we're gonna have to sort out.

OK.

So, you know what does this look like, what are what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing, what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions

Mm - hmm.

and what's the best way to organize this so that um it's clean and and consistent and all that sort of stuff.

OK. I'm just thinking about how people, human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something.

Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things, it can either em do s do sell things, fix things, service things, exhibit things, it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things,

Mm - hmm.

it's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site.

Mm - hmm.

Many come to mind. Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible. IE a a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible, some statue

Mm - hmm.

you know can go inside.

OK. Anyway so let me suggest you do something else. Uh which is to get rid get rid of that l long link between who the user and the endpoint.

Could we just move it like this?

No no, I don't want the link there at all.

Oh, OK.

Because what we're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models, so what we we what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions, so let's make a new node

Yeah. Yeah.

Just as a suggestion maybe you could " save as " to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one.

Mmm. The old one was not that not that important, I think but

OK, well, not a big deal then.

Let's do it then.

Well the Isn't there a " save as " inside of java base?

But I can just take this

OK.

copy it somewhere else. This was user something

Well this was

or

uh let's p put it this let's do endpoint underbar - U.

end point?

i endpoint, e end poi this is sa

Ah.

it's the endpoint

Gotcha, yeah.

let's say underbar - U, so that's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the

As related from the user model.

Right. So let's let's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the

Should I rename this too?

uh yeah, so that, I guess that's endpoint uh

It's underscore - E.

underscore - E for entity, and we may change all this, but. Right. And

OK, shouldn't I be able to move them all? No. Or? Can I? Where? What?

Oh I d eh I don't know. Actually, I guess the easiest thing would move mo move the endpoint, well, go ahead. Just do whatever.

Wasn't this possible?

Well.

Yeah.

I think you have to be in move mode before

Uh - huh. OK.

Good. Right.

So now we're looking for user related things that um

Yeah. And uh maybe th maybe it's just one who is the user, I don't know, maybe maybe there's more.

Huh.

Well if he's usi if he's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe

Never mind. Uh anyway, this is crude. Now but the now so so but then the question is uh so and and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology, but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse.

Well let's should we finish this,

Sure,

I mean but surely the user interests

OK.

The user thrift, the user budget.

yeah, yeah

Well, maybe, I again, I d well, OK, put em in but what we're gonna wanna do is actually uh

Well is.

Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a is a vector of five hundred values, so um That's from the user model,

Oh you mean level of interest?

mm - hmm, no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in.

Well.

somebody else has built this user model.

Oh I see,

Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus

right. So why is it oh it, so it's like a vector of five hundred one's or zero's?

Yea - n is that

Like for each thing are we are you interested in it or not?

yeah uh I I think

I see.

Hmm.

OK. So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that. Alright? One is um you could ignore it. But the other thing you could do is have an and this will give you the flavor of the of what you could have a node that's that was a measure of the match between the object's feature, you know, the match between the object the entity, I'm sorry and the user.

Mm - hmm. Uh.

So you could have a k a " fit " node and again that would have to be computed by someone else

Mm - hmm.

but uh so that uh

Just as a mental note uh

Yeah, that's all.

Mm - hmm. And and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of of entering?

Yeah. I mean, we could.

Yeah. And also if it's an expensive place to enter, this may also

OK.

Budget.

User schedule. " Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome  or do I just have to " " time to take a picture of the outside? "

Schedule?

Right.

It seems like everything in a user model a affects.

Well that's what we don't wanna do, see that se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that

Yeah.

Mm - hmm.

an

Cuz if the, I mean, and if the user is tired, the user state,

Well

right, it would affect stuff, but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be

Well, but

Right.

Well, that that's we can't do that, so we we're gonna have to

Yeah.

but this is a good discussion, we're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is is the uh compatibility with his current state, so that's what you'd have to do, you'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact, so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and and his energy

Yeah, just seems like it'd push the problem back a level.

Right.

It does.

Mm - hmm.

Yeah, but

No but, it's more than that, like the the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it's not exponential anymore.

So it yeah, there are two advantages. That's tha there's one technical one

Sh - sh yeah,.

and the other is it it gets used

S so we'd basically be doing subgrouping? Subgrouping, basically into mo

Yeah.

so basically make it more tree like going backwards?

Right.

Yeah.

Right. But it there's two advantages, one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT's,

Bhaskara?

the other is it can be it presumably can be used for multiple decisions.

Mm - hmm.

So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u

Right.

not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it's used in multiple places. Anyway th so in general this is the design, this is really design problem.

Yeah.

OK, you've got a signal, a d set of decisions um how do we do this?

What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something. Oh that's tired, fresh, yeah. Maybe should be renamed into physical state.

Or fat user fatigue even.

Hmm.

That's with a " G "?

Mm - hmm.

Whatever.

Then we can make a user state.

What's th what we're talking about is compatibility. Uh or something, I don't know, but.

I guess the the question uh is It's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again. Or user compatibility.

Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh

That don't.

that don't

The user interests and the user who who who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke

Sure, but other I thought though the node we're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action, right?

the right

Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something.

Uh maybe not. I mean the that's the the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of. And anyway we're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible.

Maybe um if we look at the if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions. Viewing usually is cheap or free.

Mm - hmm.

Is that always true? I don't know.

Well, with the way we're defining it I think yeah.

W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it's free cuz you

And so is approaching.

Yeah.

Well what about the Grand Canyon, right? No, never mind. I mean are there are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like, I mean never mind, not in the current.

No we have to enter the park.

OK.

Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering,

Yeah.

ge going through some

OK. Right, sure.

Right. Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one, I mean clearly there's more work to be done on this

Mm - hmm.

but I think it's gonna be more instructive to to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land. And what they're gonna look like.

So you can save this one as and open up the old one, right and and then everything would be clean. You could do it again.

Why, I think it's worth saving this one but I think I'd I'd like to keep this one

Yeah.

cuz I wanna see if if we're gonna reuse any of this stuff.

Mm - hmm.

Um so this might be What next?

Well you tell me, so in terms of the uh planner what's what's a good one to do?

Well let's th this go there or not I think is a good one.

Uh

Is a very basic one. So what makes things more likely that.

Well the fir see the first thing is, getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse.

So

So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we're gonna want to know you know, which constructions indicate various of these properties

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm.

s and so I I don't yet know how to do this, I guess we're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet.

Mm - hmm.

So that that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse, and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for

We we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint.

Of of course.

Identified that

Yeah.

and so again re that's completely correct, we have the user model, the situation model here, we don't have the discourse model here yet. Much the same way as we didn't we don't have the ontology here.

Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting, selling, and so forth.

Really.

So in some sense it's it's there.

Mm - hmm.

But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet.

Yeah. Um This be specific for second year? Um And and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint.

But if we do it'll have the three values.

Hmm?

It'll have the EVA values if if we have it.

Yeah. Yeah. OK just for starters and here discourse um

For Go - there, probably is true and false, let's say. That's what we talked about.

um well, I think um we're looking at the the little data that we have, so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there.

Mm - hmm.

So this should sort of push it in one direction

Right.

however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there.

Mm - hmm.

And sometimes um people say where is it

Mm - hmm.

because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that you're you want these two values.

Oh yeah, true. So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it's either yep, yay, A, or nay. Yeah. OK?

And they'll be a y uh, a user Go - there and maybe that's all, I don't know.

Situation Go - there, I mean, because it's whether it's open or not.

Mm - hmm.

OK, good.

That definitely interes

Yep.

But that now that kind of um what's the word

Hmm.

um the that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it's fine to go there when it's closed whereas if they want to um

Right.

so

Right, so that's that's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting, so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it's closed or not

Mm - hmm.

in terms of uh uh you know, whether whether you wanna go there.

The time of day,

Mm - hmm.

right I well, right.

It does matter though if there's like a strike or riot or something.

Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter.

Right. So yeah, that's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this that node by itself wouldn't distinguish

Well i i it can have di various values. Yeah, but we eh you you're right it might not be enough.

Yeah, I mean, see I'm I'm thinking that any node that begins with " Go - there " is either gonna be true or false.

Well, what Whoops.

Yeah.

Right.

Ah. I see that could be.

Also, that node, I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for

Mm - hmm.

you know, there's different things, the strikes and the

Could be. Yeah. N

Like situation traffic and so on.

Yeah, the time of day.

Yeah. Yeah. So so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link, and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision

I guess the final

maybe the t they're final re and, I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node. And I don't worry about layout,

Yeah.

I mean then we'll go we'll go nuts but

Mmm.

Mm - hmm.

Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into?

Could be, yeah.

Right. Because that's what we, I mean that's why this situation comes up.

Yeah. Well the Go - there, actually the Endpoint node could feed feed into the Go - there S That's right,

Yeah, right.

so the Endpoint node,

Mm - hmm.

make that up t t to the Go - there then

Yeah.

and again we'll have to do layout at some point, but something like that. Now it's gonna be important not to have loops by the way. Uh really important in in the belief worl net world not to have loops

I was just gonna

uh

Yes.

How long does it take you to to compute uh

No it's much worse than that. It if i loo it it it it it's not def i it's not well defined if you're there are loops,

It things don't converge, yeah.

uh R recursive action?

you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK.

Uh but this isn't, this is this line is just coming from over here.

Yeah.

Yeah, no it's not a loop yet, I'm just saying we we, in no, in

Yeah. Well, but the good thing is we we could have loopy belief propagation which we all love.

Mmm.

Right. OK, so anyway, so that's another decision. Uh what's what's another decision you like?

OK, these have no parents yet, but I guess that sort of doesn't matter. Right?

Well, the idea is that you go there, you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is is a mystery.

I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth, yeah. Sh - Should we just make some

Sure, if you want.

um if there's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares. OK. And if he has seen it already or not and so forth,

Right.

OK. Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here?

Sure.

That sort of comes from Keith.

Mm - hmm.

Just sort of so we don't forget. Oops. Have to get used to this. OK, whoops.

Um actually.

And then also the discourse endpoint, I I guess endpoint sub - D is if you wanna make it consistent.

Wh - ah.

Mm - hmm.

Um actually is this the the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the, I mean

I think so. S

uh, hmm OK. But that still allows for the possibility of the of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from.

Maybe not, a Right.

That all that that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node.

Uh y you yeah you i you if you needed to do that.

Uh. If you needed it to do that.

Yeah.

But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I'm conflating that user node with possible possible asking of the user

Yeah.

you know hey there's a strike on, uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something

Ah. Good point, I don't I don't know how we're going to t uh

or Yeah, so that might not come out of a user model but, you know, directly out of interaction.

Right. Uh I gu yes my curr you know, don't yeah yeah yeah that's enough.

Yeah.

Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it.

Mm - hmm.

And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things

OK.

you know, given that you know there's a strike do you still wanna go?

Yeah.

But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff, then you would ask him do you wanna go?

Mm - hmm. OK.

But I think trying to formulate the conditional question, that sounds too much.

Right, right. Yeah. Right, sure, OK.

To me.

Mm - hmm.

Alright, but let me let let's stay with this a minute

But

because I want to do a little bit of organization. Before we get more into details. The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to to worry about the various constructions that people might use

Mm - hmm.

and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard,

Alright.

so what's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates, OK uh they'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net. I j wa I I assume everybody knows that, I just wanna you know, get closure that that'll be the game then,

Mm - hmm.

so the semantics that you'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes. And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out. So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation

And it there's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what's the utterance go giving us

Yeah.

and then what's the discourse history give us.

Yeah, well that, well, we'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes.

Mm - hmm.

That's uh two things then.

Mm - hmm.

Mmm.

an and it's not clear yet. I mean it could be those are two separate things, it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as which would be my guess that you'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there,

Mm - hmm.

wow, what does that mean and uh

Mm - hmm

Now. Mm - hmm.

Alright. So

But is th is this picture that's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E, sub - D, sub - U and maybe a sub - O " O " for " ontology " um meta node

I don't know.

but it might just

It could be.

could be

This is this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next,

so this

which is s if that's true uh how do we wanna combine those? O or when it's true?

but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that, you know, we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And four you we can handle.

No.

Yeah.

It's too much?

Well i i it see i if it's fou if it's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT, it's not s completely impossi I mean it's it's not beyond what the system could solve but it's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down. or learn.

Right, true.

Uh but, you know it's four to the fourth. It's pretty big. Uh.

Two fifty - six,

Yeah.

is that what that

Yeah, I mean it's and I don't think it's gonna g e I don't think it'll get worse than that by the way, so le that's a that's a good

Mmm yeah.

But but four didn't we decide that all of these had true or false? So is it's four

Uh for go there, but not f but not for the other one's three values for endpoint already.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values

Right.

so I mean it can get big fast.

Um for endpoint? No it's it's sh

EV - it's the EVA.

yeah, down here, but this one only has two.

No.

No it still has three,

Since ta they will still have three.

EVA.

Each so you're uh uh from each point of view you're making the same decision.

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm.

So from the point of view of the ob of the entity

Want to view that, yeah yeah. C sl

Yeah.

yeah

This and also, I mean, the other places where, like for example consider endpoint view, it has inputs coming from user budget, user thrift

Right.

so even

Those are not necessarily binary. S so we're we're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode. And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it, you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place. Alright. So we we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them. But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there.

Mm - hmm.

So th yes they so these things all affect it,

Right.

how do they affect it? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that. So is it it's it's clearer n clear enough what the issue is,

Right.

right? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this?

R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy.

Well, here he here's one of the things that that I th you sh you no, I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up, you click on " endpoint ", OK and everything else fades

Mm - hmm.

and you just see the links that are relevant to that. And I does anybody remember the GUI on this?

Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one

Mm - hmm.

vers cuz uh

It's probably pretty easy do it to do it in HTML, just.

Yeah, but

Uh

HTML?

Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it's respective,

Yeah the well the b

OK.

but

anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram.

Yeah.

Alright, so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I I let me consi suggest that's a s not a first - order consideration, we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A, A, and B how do they get combined mathematically, how do we display them is an issue, but um

I don't, yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that.

Yeah. Yeah, I I mean, it might soon, if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes.

Right. Yeah, and Um I that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into, but um we have to know what we want first. OK, so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what what the choices might be for these?

So Ah, sorry. I guess that's

You can technically wear that as you're talking.

Yeah, it's right, I guess I can do that.

Darn.

Put it in your, yeah.

I guess this board works fine. So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node. Right? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down. So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set, right? These are all like saying EV or A, right? So it's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know, um sorta weighted combination.

Hmm. ROVER, the ROVER decision.

The what decision?

ROVER. All of their outputs combined to make a decision.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those, right? That's the way belief - nets are defined, like each node given its parents, right? So um that's what we want, we want for example P of um let's call this guy Y and let's call these X - one, X - two XN, right. So we want probability that Y equals, you know, for example um E given that these guys are I'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something, uh the co like all of them? Given that for example the data says you know, A, V, A, E, or something right?

Yep.

So we would like to do this kind of combination.

Alright, so um Is that uh I yeah, I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on.

I think so, yeah.

It's it's cl e is is it clear what he wants to compute?

Mm - hmm.

Right. So, right. So Basically um what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E, s give a number

Mm - hmm.

because that's obviously not desirable. What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution, so we want it to um add up to one, right?

Hmm.

So those are the two things that we uh need. So what uh I guess, what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we, you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages, right? So for example here two people have voted for A, one has voted for V, and one has voted for E, so we could say that the probabilities are, you know, probability of being E is one over four, because one person voted for E out of four and similarly, probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four. Right? So that's step that's the uh yeah that's the that's the basic uh thing. Now

Um Yeah.

Is that all OK?

And that one outcome, that's

What?

it's X X - one voted for A X - two voted for V

Mm - hmm.

and so forth?

Y right. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things, which may or may not be a good assumption,

That's the outcome.

Mm - hmm. Right.

so that

Yeah. Yeah. So step two is um right. So we've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know, some w be that for example, what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said, like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh

X - one matters more i than X - two or

Right. Sure, so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one, W - two, W - three, and W - four

Hmm.

right? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat, we just need that the W's sum to one. So they can be for example, you know you you could have point one, point three, point two, and point four, say.

That's one.

And that'd be one. So that um also seems to work fine. And uh

So I jus just to make sure I understand this, so in this case um we would still compute the average?

You'd compute the weighted average, so the probability of E would be uh

OK, so so it'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh  W one times.

Point three.

or A or let's see, one full quarter times point one

Not one quarter,

No.

so these numbers have been replaced with point one, point three, point two, and point four. So you can view these as gone.

OK.

Probability of

OK.

Yeah. Yeah. OK. So, alright. So this is uh step two. So the next possibility is that um we've given just a single weight to each expert, right, whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable. So the way this is handled is by what's called a mixture of experts, so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called " H ", OK? This is a hidden variable. And what this is is it gets its input from X - one, X - two, X - three, and X - four, and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation. Right? And then these guys all come here. OK. So this is sightly uh more complicated. So what's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable. So H produces some you know, it produces a number, either one, two, three, or four, in our situation, right? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it's two, and then he just selects the uh thing. That's all there is to say, I guess about it. Right, so you can have a mixture that

Mm - hmm.

Right.

So so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs. It's driving how the other four are interpreted. OK.

Yeah. Yeah.

So H passes a vector on to the next node?

It could.

It could? A vector of the weights as the se

Yeah, it could

oh.

Sorry?

Well a vector with three zero's and one one, right?

Oh it's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it's in or which one of the weighting systems

Right, so I mean the way you desc

W I was just, if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too, couldn't you? OK.

Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha, beta, whatever, or is the that's determined by what the experts are saying, like the type of situ OK. Hmm. OK. OK. I mean It it just seems that like without that that outside input that you've got a situation where, you know, like if if uh X - one says no, you know, a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one, you know, I mean that seems like that'd be weird,

Yeah, well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also.

right? Oh, OK. OK. Alright, right.

Oh The situations that H has, are they built into the net or OK, so they they could either be hand coded or learned or OK.

Yeah.

Based on training data, OK.

Yeah. Yes.

So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Um Well, I mean to learn them we need data, where are we gonna get data? Well I mean we need data with people intentions, right?

Right, right.

Which is slightly tricky. Right.

Uh - huh.

Mm - hmm. But what's the data about like, are we able to get these nodes from the data?

Like how thrifty the user is, or do we have access to that? Mm - hmm. Oh right. Oh good. OK.

Yeah.

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. OK.

Yeah, but that's my question, like how do we I mean, how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E, or endpoint sub uh you know s S?

Well, basically you would say, based on in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was,

Mmm. Mmm.

right?

So this is what we wanna learn. Yep. Right. Hmm. Yeah. I don't think, well you have a can you bring up the function thing? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of

That's on the added variable, isn't it?

Oh function properties, is that it? Hmm, I guess not. Yeah, that's

No.

Right. OK. And um it so e either it'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely, I think more likely it'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU's on your own in the java base format. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was assuming that's what we'd always do because yeah I was assuming that's what we'd always do, it's Right. Yeah.

Ah. Well in terms of java base I think it's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah, I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here.

So Yeah. Yeah. By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they're interacting with the system and so on? Like, I mean, what kind of questions are being given being asked? Cuz OK. Yeah yeah. OK. OK. Fey, you mean. OK. OK. O OK. OK. I'm just wondering, because in terms of, you know, I mean uh w the figure I was thinking about this figure that we talked about, fifty constructions or whatever that's uh that's a whole lot of constructions and um you know, I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so, I mean I know we're going for sort of a rough and ready. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. OK. OK. I mean, I I I I was uh I was talking about the, you know, if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do, I wanna see what people are using, so Well, it will inspire me. Right, sure sure. Right. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. OK. Touche. Good enough.

Question: What were the main topics covered in the meeting?

Response:
* The participants discussed the influence links in order to determine which set of things were relevant to which decisions.
* They also talked about the belief nodes needed to do what they needed to do.
* An additional topic that came up was how they could fix issues where the running budget so that it is constantly changing.

Question: What did Grad C say about the Java - based GUI for editing belief networks?

Response: Grad C did not said anything about the Java - based GUI for editing belief networks.

Question: What was decided regarding how they were going to integrate the discourse semantics with the semantics of the belief nets?

Response: This issue was not discussed in the meeting.

Question: What did they decide about the "H" node in the mixture of experts model?

Response: The participants discussed the "H" node in the mixture of experts model but it is not explicitly clear what did they decide.

Question: Besides what Grad D suggested, were there any other methods proposed for handling the combination of the S nodes?

Response:
The participants discussed three methods for handling the combination of the S nodes:
* Using equal weights for each expert
* Using weighted average, where each expert is assigned a weight
* Using a mixture of experts model, where a hidden node determines which expert is the most reliable in the given situation

Question: Besides the three methods for handling the combination of the S nodes that were discussed, were there any other possible approaches that were considered, even if they were not ultimately chosen?

Response: This topic was not discussed in the meeting.

Question: Besides the examples of data that Grad D mentioned, were there any other possible sources of data that were discussed for training the nodes in the belief network?

Response: This topic was not discussed in the meeting.

Question: What was determined regarding the procedure for integrating the discourse semantics with the semantics of the belief networks?

Response: This topic was not discussed in the meeting.

Question: Did the participants consider using a reinforcement learning algorithm to train the nodes in the belief network?

Response: This topic was not discussed in the meeting.

Question: Were there any other unanswered questions or loose ends from the meeting besides the integration of discourse semantics with belief network semantics?

Response: This topic was not discussed in the meeting.