MEAN.js & Full-Stack JavaScript_transcript.txt

[0.00 --> 14.40]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where members support a blog podcast and weekly
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[21.02 --> 27.20]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog you're listening to episode 119 and
[27.20 --> 34.28]  talk to the fellows behind mean js amos aviv and rowie cohen mean js is a full stack javascript
[34.28 --> 43.10]  solution using mongo db express anguli js and node great show today it's sponsored by codeship
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[129.68 --> 139.76]  we're joined today by Amos Aviv and Roe Schwaber Cohen talking about Mean.js it's a product oriented
[139.76 --> 145.30]  full stack javascript boilerplate so why don't one of you guys give us a uh well first of all why don't
[145.30 --> 153.28]  you guys introduce yourself i guess Amos you can go first um so my name is Amos Aviv and i'm a developer
[153.28 --> 164.68]  a web developer for about uh 12 years now um i've been through the days of i5 and quicksmod uh through
[164.68 --> 174.80]  uh the birth of the uh new generation um browsers and finally to where we are today uh in this exciting
[174.80 --> 182.40]  new world of javascript uh in in the server and stuff like that um i do a lot of um
[182.40 --> 192.48]  side projects i guess um because uh you have to do something for your soul um
[192.48 --> 200.10]  and one of the latest side projects i had was Mean.io um which evolved to be Mean.js
[200.10 --> 207.56]  um yeah so there's there's a little bit of drama around that which we'll kind of touch on a little
[207.56 --> 212.34]  bit um later in the show but we you know we'll kind of avoid that as much as possible just to kind
[212.34 --> 217.34]  of shine a light on the good of Mean.js um so that's cool so you've been around you've been doing
[217.34 --> 223.68]  this for a while yeah uh Roe yeah Roe why don't you so i've been a developer in israel um for the past
[223.68 --> 231.44]  uh nine years i would say um yeah i come from a more of a php background but recently also found
[231.44 --> 238.76]  the light and node um very interested in like all of what this framework has to offer um and then
[238.76 --> 244.60]  angular is again one of the newer tools that i've started using in the past uh maybe a year or two
[244.60 --> 253.52]  um and i'm currently working for a company called leafly here in seattle um yeah that's about it
[253.52 --> 259.36]  awesome so why don't you guys give us a uh introduction to what Mean.js is um in its current
[259.36 --> 270.34]  in its current form okay so um Mean.js is a full stack javascript boilerplate um it was born out of
[270.34 --> 279.02]  uh our attempt at um a better flow for this kind of stack so the term was coined um in the MongoDB
[279.02 --> 287.32]  blog actually um and we basically found out that it was super um efficient um almost basically wrote
[287.32 --> 294.74]  the stack um i think it was uh six or seven months ago no no it was am i making a mistake yeah it's
[294.74 --> 304.62]  about uh a year ago um the blog post was uh written by a developer called valery karpov he uh on the
[304.62 --> 313.02]  mongodb blog um i used to do uh i'm a freelance developer so i i'm involved in several projects
[313.02 --> 320.82]  and i recognized a certain pattern in projects where where developers used mongodb as the database
[320.82 --> 330.62]  uh node as the web server and uh angular js as the as the client web framework um and decided uh
[330.62 --> 337.38]  uh those projects could look better be better organized if uh they put in some sort of order
[337.38 --> 346.48]  so i created uh a Mean stack uh which i used uh uh for about uh two months before we released it as
[346.48 --> 355.22]  an open source um i i i thought the name Mean was cool and when i looked it up i found out uh
[355.22 --> 364.98]  several people are already using it uh so i just released it um as Mean um to to address the namespace
[364.98 --> 378.02]  i guess um it can it it basically um was constructed to offer uh MVC whatever um structure to both the
[378.02 --> 386.82]  server side and the server side um in a way that um represents your entities properly um
[386.82 --> 396.66]  i think what what i i tried to do uh was help developers from coming from strict type languages
[396.66 --> 407.76]  with background in in a java um uh sp.net uh and stuff like that um step into the world of node.js
[407.76 --> 416.42]  web applications and feel a little more comfortable um and so the point of Mean uh just sorry to interrupt
[416.42 --> 421.70]  the point of Mean so it's it's it's opinionated right it's mongo express angular node and this is
[421.70 --> 428.02]  something that you guys basically noticed was like a really common trend amongst uh for a node stack
[428.02 --> 434.56]  right which was this thing called Mean uh what is it about Mean.js now i've used all of these things
[434.56 --> 441.00]  and all of them are relatively easy to uh get started with on their own what is it about Mean.js that that
[441.00 --> 445.34]  kind of makes it easier to get started with the whole stack rather than trying to do each one individually
[445.34 --> 452.08]  so i think uh the most important uh stuff we wanted to address the most important issue we wanted to
[452.08 --> 459.42]  address was um the interface between the different parts um you have your angular js application uh
[459.42 --> 466.58]  running and you want to communicate with your node server so your node server um it should present
[466.58 --> 477.64]  some sort of a rest api for angular js to use um and we wanted that um uh interface point uh to be
[477.64 --> 488.24]  properly organized so when you download the stack you get um a folder structure uh and a couple of config
[488.24 --> 494.56]  files that help you configure the different parts of the application like um the connection point between
[494.56 --> 503.62]  node and uh MongoDB uh where we use the Mongoose module or uh a user authentication layer uh which uses the
[503.62 --> 511.62]  the popular passport module and we wanted to give this all out of the box uh to feel to let uh developers just
[511.62 --> 520.96]  uh begin writing their code uh instead of uh i don't know trying to figure out how to um build their project
[520.96 --> 531.46]  um and just concentrate on building uh what they want instead of um the infrastructure which which i used to see
[531.46 --> 538.70]  uh which i used to see developers uh taking a lot of time uh dealing with the infrastructure and the way
[538.70 --> 545.98]  the proper way to uh connect those parts uh so right means we have a very i think we have a very
[545.98 --> 552.40]  important um concept that we're trying to relay um with mean which is first of all we chose um
[552.40 --> 562.18]  only if not um like mostly if not only popular um components so um we intentionally chose to go with
[562.18 --> 568.24]  Mongo instead of couch we intentionally chose to go with express instead of some other um um framework
[568.24 --> 575.06]  uh that does routing we chose to reduce uh our jade imprint eventually because all of these things
[575.06 --> 580.82]  were were were coming from the community so we're trying to pick um again components that are really
[580.82 --> 586.60]  popular from the one hand and from the other we really wanted to not abstract away the simplicity of
[586.60 --> 591.98]  of all these frameworks so we don't want to create some sort of like a layer that takes all this
[591.98 --> 596.62]  complexity away from you as a developer we wanted it we wanted you to still be hands-on and really
[596.62 --> 603.36]  understand how the parts work but um that doesn't necessitate um you learning each of the components
[603.36 --> 609.02]  and like really knowing how to integrate them properly um and we found that it was really easy
[609.02 --> 615.30]  to start um creating vertical stacks uh which means like all the stacks in the server all the all the
[615.30 --> 622.26]  parts of the server and the client for for a given entity um it made that whole process a lot easier and a lot
[622.26 --> 628.92]  faster right so this is different from a lot of our listeners are rubyists and this is different from
[628.92 --> 634.46]  rails and that rails is its own thing right it builds all the layers into its own thing and and
[634.46 --> 638.60]  this would be similar if you guys were to say build your own express that had its own templating and
[638.60 --> 644.00]  its own database and its own you know all that mean it takes the other tools so you still have
[644.00 --> 649.54]  complete control over the tools individually and it allows you to but it makes it easier to kind of
[649.54 --> 654.68]  connect it all together yeah i think one of the more the more uh prominent patterns we saw with uh
[654.68 --> 661.74]  with mean is the amount of forks um that were kind of unusual to yeah about um 1000 forks already
[661.74 --> 667.38]  yeah so like yeah the total the total is about 1000 forks and the reason for that is people
[667.38 --> 672.12]  like different flavors of mean and they like different flavors of full stack javascript really
[672.12 --> 677.74]  um so if we look at this entire picture we're we're of the mind that um all these flavors are
[677.74 --> 683.94]  totally valid and we're not necessarily opinionated um in a way that says like our our flavor is better
[683.94 --> 688.82]  than any other flavor it's just that we found these tools to be super popular and super helpful
[688.82 --> 694.54]  and powerful and we thought that they were our our best choice for the scenarios where we were
[694.54 --> 701.04]  at the time so i was um um developing for a startup called go mango and i had to rewrite my website
[701.04 --> 706.14]  really quickly and it was sort of built with a lot of fragmented pieces of jquery and angular
[706.14 --> 712.08]  and node in the back and some php and some dotnet and all all these systems were working together
[712.08 --> 717.78]  but not very well um and my first experience with mean.io was when i basically converted my website
[717.78 --> 722.94]  that was built before that um it took about eight months to build and i converted it in about two
[722.94 --> 732.30]  weeks so i feel i really felt a very significant and real um uh change in in the speed uh of my
[732.30 --> 737.78]  development and i think it really it really has a lot to do with a the fact that we're doing only
[737.78 --> 743.94]  javascript um and not like switching between languages which is immensely helpful and it's
[743.94 --> 750.94]  sort of easier to keep on thinking sort of the same way um with with thinking and and i and i specifically
[750.94 --> 756.96]  mean about thinking about modularity and thinking about you know um asynchronous um uh workflow instead
[756.96 --> 761.70]  of a synchronous workflow all of that together creates this effect of everything is so much easier
[761.70 --> 768.22]  and faster gotcha so the the idea that you're using like mongo instead of couch or react and express
[768.22 --> 773.74]  instead of happy or getty or you know different different things uh that's that's your choice but
[773.74 --> 778.78]  but what happens when like somebody forks this and it's reen right with all the same stack except
[778.78 --> 783.24]  react instead of mongo and that one kind of takes off as the popular fork like that's that's a real
[783.24 --> 789.44]  problem that this open source project faces um and so what happens there we're actually not yeah we're
[789.44 --> 794.62]  not seeing it as a problem yeah we're not this is a great yeah how else you can go so we're not
[794.62 --> 801.52]  viewing it as a uh we're not viewing it as a problem um we actually find this as a great opportunity
[801.52 --> 811.00]  uh we i personally hate uh um religious technical discussions like the editor wars of the 80s
[811.00 --> 819.26]  um i i find it extremely unproductive i believe everyone should choose their
[819.26 --> 830.24]  tools i'm really pro um um a variety of tools so what we we faced this early on uh roi actually
[830.24 --> 838.44]  helped one of our uh more passionate developers um yeah martin jenna he's like an awesome awesome dude
[838.44 --> 846.76]  yeah he's like an awesome dude who runs the the 100 jas blog uh and he wanted to make a mean fork
[846.76 --> 857.66]  using amber and roi helped him doing so uh and and uh when we saw this coming uh we and roi uh started
[857.66 --> 865.76]  creating uh different forks of mean we we created a jane fork which used a juggling db as an obfuscation
[865.76 --> 874.76]  layer for different databases um i played with the idea of um breaking the angular part and um
[874.76 --> 883.88]  um letting users re uh use the the web framework frameworks they want like amber uh backbone knockout
[883.88 --> 889.80]  whatever you like um and i helped the company implement their own web framework inside mean
[889.80 --> 897.44]  so um we find this this is actually one of the things we find uh inspiring because we don't see mean
[897.44 --> 905.26]  as uh as the goal we see it as a starting point for something much bigger um javascript full stack is
[905.26 --> 912.78]  a vision not yet uh fulfilled yeah it's very new yeah it's very new uh we experienced uh firsthand
[912.78 --> 922.62]  the possibilities in this field um as roi mentioned um the quick uh the gain in performance
[922.62 --> 927.78]  developers uh developers get when they use a javascript um a full stack javascript boilerplate
[927.78 --> 936.00]  uh is impressive um and we want to push towards that location we even considering starting a project
[936.00 --> 943.86]  called jsfs we will talk about it sometimes sometime later but uh jsfs will contain the different flavors
[943.86 --> 952.74]  of um full stack javascript it's um it's uh in the far future i don't know how far but um
[952.74 --> 957.54]  it's still in its infancy yeah yeah yeah but but but that's okay that's um
[957.54 --> 964.44]  we find this as an opportunity not a problem we we see we would like to see developers implement
[964.44 --> 972.26]  their own flavor of whatever they like stack um call it whatever i think we're trying to also like
[972.26 --> 978.60]  sort of take the discussion about javascript to like a newer place which talks about not only the
[978.60 --> 983.84]  components that you use but rather the patterns that we see emerging from these these tools so like
[983.84 --> 989.62]  full like the full stack thing comes comes naturally because it's all javascript and all in one language
[989.62 --> 998.80]  so it's much easier to describe it that way um but i i sort of feel that that um with with this this
[998.80 --> 1004.50]  framework framework uh in mind we can start talking about more complex ideas and then start thinking
[1004.50 --> 1009.58]  about how are we collaborating across this ecosystem because like one of the problems we were facing and
[1009.58 --> 1014.10]  that's something that you start facing when you're doing full stack javascript is how do you do um
[1014.10 --> 1019.34]  package management for for the front end for the back end and these are like larger issues that are
[1019.34 --> 1026.14]  relevant to the entire um sort of full stack uh javascript community right or ecosystem and not just to
[1026.14 --> 1030.78]  mean we're going to pause the show real quick and give a shout out to our sponsors rackspace
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[1087.50 --> 1096.36]  something awesome and get started today developer.rackspace.com slash dev trial so just out of curiosity
[1096.36 --> 1103.40]  yamas as somebody who is around in the editor wars um which editor is the right one to use with mean
[1103.40 --> 1116.76]  developers um developers prefer different kind of of editors according to uh the way they used to um
[1116.76 --> 1126.80]  um program i think when you maintain um a large code base you would prefer using an ide or um a tool that
[1126.80 --> 1133.32]  allows like a tool that allows you to to dig deeper and and and assist you with with understanding the
[1133.32 --> 1140.54]  complexity of your code and when you write a lot of code like we do uh i i prefer my editors as lean
[1140.54 --> 1150.04]  as possible uh i currently use sublime um sub the the guy writing sublime is awesome um i'm addicted
[1150.04 --> 1156.24]  to multiple characters um so that's that was a joke question you're not supposed to really have
[1156.24 --> 1162.88]  an answer for that that's not fair no no you stepped into a field i i am i'm talking so much about
[1162.88 --> 1169.04]  we're both kind of like editor fanatics and we're like totally interested in any new editor that comes
[1169.04 --> 1174.20]  around because part of us does feel that there is some sort of a gap between what we need as developers
[1174.20 --> 1178.98]  when we're trying to like maintain a full stack application it's sort of getting difficult because
[1178.98 --> 1183.38]  you're you're juggling a lot of balls and and it sort of feels like sometimes you're encumbered by your
[1183.38 --> 1187.84]  editor um and and yeah that's also another conversation we sort of want to have with people
[1187.84 --> 1194.20]  gotcha so actually uh to kind of ask this question uh i think it was rowey did you say you came from
[1194.20 --> 1201.08]  like php land yeah mostly yeah so one of the things to get started i mean specifically in like node land
[1201.08 --> 1206.28]  and with you know full stack javascript is the ability to learn and the ability to learn like the
[1206.28 --> 1211.70]  new environment and all that um what was it like for you and what what is it how does mean kind of
[1211.70 --> 1218.22]  help people when they're getting started in in node land so so my experience was that um everything
[1218.22 --> 1226.04]  requires a lot of experimentation um and well once you get the gist of uh you know how javascript works
[1226.04 --> 1232.26]  in its core um once you start understanding that not everything is synchronous um everything sort of
[1232.26 --> 1237.38]  starts making more sense so i had a rough time starting out um and i didn't have a whole lot of
[1237.38 --> 1241.66]  documentation on node because i started playing with it when it was like still not not really around
[1241.66 --> 1249.18]  um as a as a production uh framework at least um and what we're trying to do again is like sort of uh
[1249.18 --> 1255.40]  with mean is sort of start with uh frameworks that are already well known um already uh have a community
[1255.40 --> 1262.66]  and some sort of uh a well a good documentation um with them and we we really tried with mean js to
[1262.66 --> 1267.58]  expand our own documentation and sort of make it easy for you as a developer to start um fiddling with
[1267.58 --> 1272.74]  javascript because with mean because again if you're a javascript developer um and even if you're not a
[1272.74 --> 1279.28]  javascript developer it's not very complicated um whatever is happening on the on the service side is
[1279.28 --> 1284.90]  really quite simple it's a model and and some routes and the stuff that's go and and that's obviously
[1284.90 --> 1292.48]  like uh really simplifying the the picture but but in terms of what you need to uh know it's it's it's very
[1292.48 --> 1299.14]  very limited um and and and the whole and and the fact that we chose these popular stacks kind of uh
[1299.14 --> 1304.20]  created this this weird effect that like our community support is sort of built in and we don't
[1304.20 --> 1310.90]  really need to invest in uh supporting each of the components on its own but rather we can only um
[1310.90 --> 1316.36]  sort of interact with issues that are pertaining to the stack itself and the way you you connect these
[1316.36 --> 1322.60]  parts together so that sort of makes it easier to to sort of document and and solve issues and so on
[1322.60 --> 1327.98]  and so forth yeah unique part of your documentation with mean js is like if you read through it the
[1327.98 --> 1333.42]  first you know i don't know 10 lines of the documentation are like go read mongo's documentation
[1333.42 --> 1337.74]  here's a manual to use go read expresses and documentation here's a guide to use go look at
[1337.74 --> 1343.72]  angular js here's a guide and then like once you get past all that um right it's really just like
[1343.72 --> 1349.50]  you can read the whole documentation in one sitting and so uh you'll obviously want to yeah you'll want
[1349.50 --> 1354.62]  to come back to it and reference things but it's neat because you guys do benefit this is an odd type
[1354.62 --> 1361.06]  of a project because as much as you are depending on other uh pieces of open source you're also
[1361.06 --> 1367.88]  benefiting from the other pieces of open source so one of the so the upside is you know as that piece
[1367.88 --> 1373.26]  as mongo progresses you guys progress with it as express progresses you guys you know progress with it
[1373.26 --> 1380.10]  what happens when something ships to mongo's you know like latest release and it and it causes a
[1380.10 --> 1386.66]  conflict in your in mean js like how does this work so actually this just happened because um express is
[1386.66 --> 1396.94]  about to release their the fourth version um you kind of need to to stay uh alert to those changes
[1396.94 --> 1402.74]  this is this is our mission like our mission is to to support the different changes in the different
[1402.74 --> 1412.74]  packages we try to make those packages um as lean as possible um um we try to use uh packages that are
[1412.74 --> 1421.94]  widely supported and not just like um a niche packages that might be uh deserted in a few um uh months or so
[1421.94 --> 1429.78]  uh so we have to keep up with those changes and offer uh an update to the uh to the stack itself um
[1429.78 --> 1439.96]  um updates are in general uh a huge issue when when you offer a stack that is built from uh uh different
[1439.96 --> 1448.32]  components and you don't you don't wrap it like in a in a sealed uh module so any update you you do
[1448.32 --> 1453.66]  uh must be supported by the community and that's what we try to do with mean js we try to give it
[1453.66 --> 1459.52]  a more modular approach so we can update it without uh affecting or breaking your project
[1459.52 --> 1467.90]  um that's one of the biggest um issues we have we we we're yeah i think i think we're not we're not
[1467.90 --> 1475.04]  even trying to really solve these bigger issues um i think with with projects like uh jsfs and that may
[1475.04 --> 1481.10]  may or may not happen uh we might again create enough discussion about the issues that that that
[1481.10 --> 1487.10]  pertain to all of us i mean yeah not just the mean stack but the the reen stack and the gene stack and
[1487.10 --> 1493.04]  the amen stack or whatever stack it is we're all going to have a problem with maintaining uh backward
[1493.04 --> 1499.74]  like our our dependencies and maintaining our uh uh backward compatibility um when we ship things that
[1499.74 --> 1505.46]  are super dependent on other packages and i don't think we're alone in this and again right now it's
[1505.46 --> 1512.04]  our mission to keep and keep maintaining a live very healthy stack um but we see that this issue is
[1512.04 --> 1517.10]  going to happen for everyone so we we sort of want to create a discussion about this as well so do you
[1517.10 --> 1522.16]  guys follow like beta or alpha releases of the other of the pieces of mean and and and like integrate
[1522.16 --> 1532.46]  you know kind of proactively um yeah we we try to to react to uh different changes when they do happen
[1532.46 --> 1540.92]  uh we try to predict what would happen to the stack um when the the final uh release will be um but
[1540.92 --> 1551.14]  what we use is um luckily we have uh each dependency in the project is is installed by using a package manager
[1551.14 --> 1562.46]  um right the amazing npm and bower um tools help us maintain the project um uh solid while we test
[1562.46 --> 1569.04]  the different uh changes that come from from the community so before we release a new uh we before we
[1569.04 --> 1577.08]  upgrade the versions of our dependencies we can test it without breaking the master branch of our uh project
[1577.08 --> 1585.36]  right right so so it is it is though very unique because people are not basically building uh very
[1585.36 --> 1589.84]  simple applications on this and like the amount of complex this is basically a web framework uh really
[1589.84 --> 1595.96]  and and it's not it's going to be hard to really predict um 100 of you know breaking changes but we're
[1595.96 --> 1602.92]  we are doing our best yeah for sure so you guys have a few other uh requirements which are not like
[1602.92 --> 1608.54]  specifically mean you mentioned uh bower so you have npm well that's node basically bower grunt
[1608.54 --> 1613.98]  uh a few other ones so these were the same kind of thing went into picking these over like grunt over
[1613.98 --> 1619.90]  um gulp there's another one that gulp yeah just because they're like they're popular and they're
[1619.90 --> 1625.58]  they're well supported and and those is that nature like why you you chose these yeah basically and i think
[1625.58 --> 1631.66]  i i think that that again there might someone might want to use uh gulp and that's super cool and if that
[1631.66 --> 1638.10]  works for them that's just another flavor of uh another full stack uh javascript uh boilerplate
[1638.10 --> 1643.16]  and i think it's super awesome and it's just that we again just for that for those reasons alone
[1643.16 --> 1648.26]  right just like maintain backwards compatibility and to not break with every new release we're trying to
[1648.26 --> 1657.24]  pick the more uh supported and more uh well-founded uh um packages and we will we'll we'll visit this
[1657.24 --> 1663.98]  uh in a couple of i don't know weeks or so when we'll uh gulp is is an amazing tool that the
[1663.98 --> 1672.12]  the ecosystem is is growing uh really fast but and when it comes a time to choose between those two
[1672.12 --> 1681.22]  um i think we'll revisit this um discussion again um so we need to um again react to the what the
[1681.22 --> 1688.62]  community where the community is leaning to toward yeah once you talk a little bit about jsfs you
[1688.62 --> 1693.62]  mentioned it and what is it and and when can we uh when will we start hearing about it
[1693.62 --> 1703.86]  um so jsfs is like a grander idea our dream you can tell it you can we can tell it this way it's our
[1703.86 --> 1710.14]  dream it is our dream and it sort of like tries to talk about again larger problems and issues that
[1710.14 --> 1714.92]  you see when you're starting to deal with full stack javascript and some of them is our it some
[1714.92 --> 1719.80]  some of those issues are uh like we talked about um you know what flavor to choose for what scenario
[1719.80 --> 1725.12]  and we sort of want to make it a level playing field and sort of uh give a face to all these
[1725.12 --> 1730.14]  flavors but just like maybe uh make sure that the most prominent ones uh are shown to everybody
[1730.14 --> 1735.38]  everybody the ones that use the most popular components should be on top we think um but but on
[1735.38 --> 1740.10]  on on a on a larger scale we sort of want to talk about again the process of managing
[1740.10 --> 1748.32]  uh your file system and how you deal with uh deployment and how you deal with uh you know
[1748.32 --> 1756.54]  development cycles and you know how do you integrate a product lifeline to your jsfs uh sort of workflow
[1756.54 --> 1762.58]  and we sort of want to address the larger issues that come with uh jsfs and not and not necessarily
[1762.58 --> 1770.08]  focus on one stack or the other um and we hope to uh see something very soon i don't i don't think
[1770.08 --> 1776.62]  we have a a set launch date for this yeah but uh yeah cool so you mentioned that i just wanted to
[1776.62 --> 1782.10]  make sure we we hit on that a little bit uh going back to mean uh you have the concept of modules in
[1782.10 --> 1787.68]  mean and and i noticed the only module that you have is mean seo um where modules an original part
[1787.68 --> 1794.08]  of mean js or is that is that a relatively new addition um it's um it's something we planned yeah it's
[1794.08 --> 1802.56]  something we planned um a few months back uh we had a little struggle uh relaunching mean as mean js so
[1802.56 --> 1809.58]  uh we wanted to concentrate on writing uh proper documentation but it's but it's one of our main
[1809.58 --> 1818.62]  goals to um wrap mean with supplemental modules like the mean seo module um it's not it's not the only
[1818.62 --> 1824.52]  model we we want to build uh there are other models we plan on building um in the next couple of weeks
[1824.52 --> 1834.34]  we uh we're working on other tools but but modules are definitely um one of the best ways to uh support
[1834.34 --> 1843.58]  a stack without uh breaking it like without um right making it um vulnerable too heavy yeah yeah
[1843.58 --> 1849.24]  so what what constitutes like a module what what would what can we expect to see in modules for mean
[1849.24 --> 1856.36]  um so we're looking at anything that's uh again cross sort of like cross stack and not necessarily
[1856.36 --> 1864.32]  for mean per se so uh the mean seo module is uh doesn't necessarily have to work on uh mean itself
[1864.32 --> 1871.34]  it could work on other uh spas um this is a problem that again is is very common to all of all
[1871.34 --> 1877.42]  all javascript sbas um with crawlers and that sort of like solves it with node in the back end
[1877.42 --> 1886.04]  um we're looking at again uh looking at um at ways to improve uh loading uh your your scripts onto the
[1886.04 --> 1892.16]  page um compressing them uh making sure that all that process is taken care of again behind the scenes
[1892.16 --> 1896.40]  and these are things that you don't necessarily have to care about if you just want to build a web
[1896.40 --> 1901.22]  application but it would be better for you to have those things just to make sure your app
[1901.22 --> 1908.02]  is working properly um so we're looking into that we're looking into um some uh maybe we're not
[1908.02 --> 1913.92]  even uh completely sure that we'll go into a more commercial sort of side of it where we would try to
[1913.92 --> 1920.96]  maybe build a store or anything of that nature but right now we're we're really focusing on uh features
[1920.96 --> 1928.66]  that would make your stack uh work properly um and if we could um not not necessarily build something
[1928.66 --> 1934.32]  that's super opinionated towards mean specifically but rather solve a larger problem for full stack
[1934.32 --> 1940.52]  applications right that'd be great gotcha so somebody could take like ideally so mean seo is
[1940.52 --> 1945.58]  an express middleware so anyone using express for an sba could essentially pull that in is that right
[1945.58 --> 1953.46]  exactly we're gonna pause the show real quick and give a shout out to our sponsor harry's uh this is a
[1953.46 --> 1960.14]  unique sponsor for the changelog we don't often get non-tech related sponsors but harry's loves the
[1960.14 --> 1966.24]  changelog oddly enough they love open source too so it's kind of neat that uh they wanted to sponsor the
[1966.24 --> 1971.98]  changelog but we welcome it it's it's it's different so uh here you go harry's was sparked
[1971.98 --> 1978.60]  by a personal experience of andy and andy is one of their co-founders and his experience that he had
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[1993.58 --> 1999.90]  supplies uh and this is in his words as first person i went to the drugstore i waited 10 minutes
[1999.90 --> 2005.48]  for someone to unlock the case where the razors were being held and i bought a four pack of blades and
[2005.48 --> 2010.64]  buying and i bought some shaving cream it wasn't the best purchase experience to say the least and i
[2010.64 --> 2018.74]  walked out and looked into my bag and i had a receipt for over 25 bucks worth of products and brands
[2018.74 --> 2025.58]  that really didn't speak to me as a customer i just felt like there had to be a better way and
[2025.58 --> 2032.26]  harry's is focused on providing guys a great shaving experience for a fraction of the price
[2032.26 --> 2037.94]  of normal competitors you know i have to say myself i've been using the gillette mach 3 for
[2037.94 --> 2046.36]  i don't know since i was 17 i guess i mean forever and i'm using harry's now harry's is awesome it's a
[2046.36 --> 2052.86]  clean product design it looks phenomenal my wife uh would have bought it for me had she known about it
[2052.86 --> 2059.82]  prior to me finding out about it but um it's great it's um it's high quality the blades are engineered in
[2059.82 --> 2066.20]  their own factory uh in in germany for sharpness and strength uh blazer half the price of competitors
[2066.20 --> 2073.36]  like gillette my my current and uh previous brand i'm still kind of weaning off there but i love i love
[2073.36 --> 2079.00]  my harry's shaving kit it's awesome um and it's shipped right to your door the look and feel the
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[2085.78 --> 2096.00]  and use the promo code changelog to save five bucks on your first purchase harry's.com h-a-r-r-y-s.com
[2096.00 --> 2103.10]  so looking through your changelog uh i think the biggest again going kind of not to hammer on the
[2103.10 --> 2107.72]  same point but like uh switching things out in an application like this is interesting to me i think
[2107.72 --> 2115.46]  the biggest change i see was when you you replace jade with swig and um uh you you kind of hit on that a
[2115.46 --> 2121.16]  little bit why why did you do that and like what kind of conversations did you all have to have to
[2121.16 --> 2130.84]  like decide to pull the trigger on that okay so um templating engine um is a really um nice discussion
[2130.84 --> 2140.08]  we had with the community um the the community of of mean uh does have different preferences
[2140.08 --> 2148.92]  for different um they do prefer a certain um template engine we started with jade because it was most the
[2148.92 --> 2157.00]  most popular template engine um we moved this week because it was it's it is faster and uses html syntax
[2157.00 --> 2165.52]  um again the um to help develop developers um lower their learning curve of getting into min
[2165.52 --> 2176.48]  um we're actually working on a generator which is one of the most uh um um revisited issue request like
[2176.48 --> 2182.82]  uh people are asking for a proper generator and that generator will support different um render
[2182.82 --> 2189.58]  engines especially when you consider that most of the views you use in in a min application are
[2189.58 --> 2198.58]  basically uh angular views and not uh a back-end views uh that which uses uh template engines like jade
[2198.58 --> 2208.00]  era um hogan or any other template engine um but but what we get a lot of opinions about it we discuss
[2208.00 --> 2215.00]  about it a lot um we move to swig again because it it is faster uh but we plan to support different uh
[2215.00 --> 2220.74]  view engines it's kind of interesting that you mention it because like um that was like one of
[2220.74 --> 2225.52]  the reasons we were talking about jsfs to begin with is because we saw that people were like
[2225.52 --> 2231.66]  feverishly um just changing the the the template engine yeah really a sore a sore subject and people
[2231.66 --> 2236.40]  were like really up in arms about it and we sort of figured that like maybe a better way to go about
[2236.40 --> 2242.58]  it would be to not necessarily decide but rather supply a generator that could uh just open a new stack
[2242.58 --> 2250.08]  um with whatever templating engine you want because anyway in mean we really don't uh don't use a lot
[2250.08 --> 2256.36]  of uh server site templating like almost said so it we weren't really uh very very opinionated but we
[2256.36 --> 2263.18]  did have our opinion and again the generator should maybe uh help with solve this problem yeah gotcha
[2263.18 --> 2268.36]  so you talk about the generator uh one of the questions how does somebody get started with mean what how
[2268.36 --> 2272.56]  would you recommend to somebody comes up to you and says i'm interested in you know
[2272.56 --> 2280.18]  building an spa how do i get started with mean um i think the first thing would be to uh look at
[2280.18 --> 2284.96]  look at the website um go to the website start reading the documentation it would be really easy
[2284.96 --> 2291.12]  to just download it um uh npm install which would install all your dependencies and you can run the
[2291.12 --> 2297.24]  server and sort of look around the code and i think for me for me personally i really learned well
[2297.24 --> 2303.82]  example um we included a full stack example of an article um so you can see all sorts of things that
[2303.82 --> 2310.72]  you could do from like the point where you define your model um through the routes and then the angular
[2310.72 --> 2315.58]  service and the views etc and you can just like follow through the stack and sort of look at how
[2315.58 --> 2322.62]  it's implemented and then just play around with it maybe implement your own uh stack um it would be
[2322.62 --> 2327.58]  really easy to do when we have the generator out because all you would have to really do is pick a
[2327.58 --> 2332.62]  name and then set the structure and then it would basically be reflected to you from the server in
[2332.62 --> 2339.32]  your in your angular side with a server service very very easily so if if you do have you i think you
[2339.32 --> 2344.90]  to start using mean you do need some sort of a background a bit in node like a very basic
[2344.90 --> 2350.16]  understanding of what it is and how npm works maybe um and you do need some some sort of knowledge
[2350.16 --> 2356.24]  um uh and and maybe even experience with angular um i wouldn't necessarily recommend this to someone
[2356.24 --> 2362.14]  who doesn't know any of these um at this point but uh if you do have that kind of uh knowledge and
[2362.14 --> 2367.76]  then for sure i think if you if you just download it and and walk through the stack and all of its parts
[2367.76 --> 2373.22]  it's pretty self-explanatory and if that's not enough then then almost has really worked and
[2373.22 --> 2378.80]  uh really hard on uh the documentation on the website and lastly and maybe most importantly
[2378.80 --> 2384.96]  we are here to answer anyone's questions and we will do our our our best to really um reply to
[2384.96 --> 2390.56]  issues and we really encourage everyone to ask and talk to us because we just love it and yeah i think
[2390.56 --> 2394.98]  one of the best things that happened to on a personal level to me and i think to almost as well was
[2394.98 --> 2400.30]  seeing the amazing reaction from the community and that's something that this is my first uh open
[2400.30 --> 2405.54]  source project um that i'm really committed to and i feel that the community support engagement
[2405.54 --> 2410.82]  has really made a difference and really made it worth my while um to actually do it and it's super
[2410.82 --> 2416.68]  fun and people are awesome really best part of my day is discussing with developers what what they build
[2416.68 --> 2425.54]  well about the projects they do it's like answering those emails is like so it makes you feel like what
[2425.54 --> 2430.72]  you do matters you see people creating their dream project and they they ask you for such a simple
[2430.72 --> 2439.90]  question such simple questions and and you can really help them get through like right um so we are
[2439.90 --> 2448.78]  pretty communicative about um supporting uh the community um and we do and we'll we'll make the
[2448.78 --> 2455.76]  documentation better i promise you that accepting forks yeah yeah accepting forks we're totally
[2455.76 --> 2461.98]  accepting forks yeah and yeah and if you want to talk to us about uh your own uh javascript full stack
[2461.98 --> 2469.38]  flavor uh we totally encourage you to do that and we are totally non-denominational so whatever whatever
[2469.38 --> 2474.62]  kind of flavor you want to bring on to the table um i think we are going to limit um the scope to just
[2474.62 --> 2479.60]  javascript and not other languages at this point because otherwise it'll just be a big mess yeah um
[2479.60 --> 2485.30]  but yeah if you do have a stack we would love to hear from you so one of the things almost that you
[2485.30 --> 2489.08]  mentioned was you know it's like your favorite part of the day is answering emails about what people
[2489.08 --> 2494.12]  are building um anything that we know of like that that you could tell me that people are using
[2494.12 --> 2501.60]  meanjs in production to get started with um i don't know if i can disclose this information
[2501.60 --> 2508.24]  because no they trust me they they show me their projects they show me their their code i i don't know
[2508.24 --> 2517.94]  if they if i would like to um disclose their projects um i've seen people create uh simple applications
[2517.94 --> 2526.36]  um uh and an akaton application or something like that uh and i i've seen people um restructure
[2526.36 --> 2536.02]  uh their uh their companies 20 years old um stack uh in min um i'm actually helping a couple of
[2536.02 --> 2544.66]  companies doing so um um um but uh what we are about to open a built with section in our site and we
[2544.66 --> 2551.06]  will and and we'll invite people to share what they're doing um but i've seen it so we'll look
[2551.06 --> 2555.10]  out for that yeah yeah look out for that i don't want to get you in any trouble here
[2555.10 --> 2563.86]  yeah yeah better not yeah awesome so uh for our guests that are just listening or for new listeners
[2563.86 --> 2568.64]  to the show we ask our guests the same questions uh at the end of every show so we'll go ahead and
[2568.64 --> 2574.94]  ask you them now the first one um i'll ask you uh roe first is for a call to action for the community
[2574.94 --> 2584.14]  um a call action a call to arms would maybe be um just build your stacks uh and and just
[2584.14 --> 2590.62]  be involved in the discussion really um let your voice be heard um we really want to hear from you
[2590.62 --> 2595.16]  and we really want to hear uh what you think about our stack and if you have different ideas about how
[2595.16 --> 2601.64]  it should work or different stack we'd totally love to hear about it what about you amas um let us
[2601.64 --> 2607.30]  know what we're doing wrong i think i guess um and how would somebody do this through github issues
[2607.30 --> 2613.18]  yeah use the github issues on twitter we have a community section in our website you can use twitter
[2613.18 --> 2621.16]  facebook you can uh personally uh um drop me an email or something like that you can use the google group
[2621.16 --> 2629.34]  um we're we're making ourselves available in in in an irc channel um but i think the best way to do it
[2629.34 --> 2635.62]  is to just open an issue uh in the github repository um asking us to change something
[2635.62 --> 2641.18]  or something like that okay cool yeah uh amas if you weren't doing this what would you be doing
[2641.18 --> 2649.82]  instead oh i i would surf the amazing beaches of um sri lanka every day awesome for like 12 hours
[2649.82 --> 2655.58]  we've we've actually had a few people say surfing so uh so yeah that seems to be a common trend
[2655.58 --> 2663.04]  amongst uh developers what about you rowey um i'd probably be a musician i think okay what do you
[2663.04 --> 2670.02]  play yeah i play flute and piano go to rowey's soundcloud page listen to what no no no not yet i've been
[2670.02 --> 2676.12]  experimenting with like no no encourage him encourage him he's making really nice music um
[2676.12 --> 2686.46]  that's rowey schwaber cohen on soundcloud yeah i just thought it's sorry man that's fine that's awesome
[2686.46 --> 2693.02]  yeah sorry your music career begins now uh amas you might need to be looking for a replacement for
[2693.02 --> 2698.76]  mean js so nothing's gonna break this relationship don't worry we've been through a lot
[2698.76 --> 2709.56]  um a programmer hero oh that's a tough one that's an easy one for me uh douglas crockford for sure
[2709.56 --> 2715.72]  yeah um he's the good the good parts the good parts yeah for sure he's the guy who made uh javascript
[2715.72 --> 2723.18]  all make sense to me and i have watched all of all of his lectures on youtube um read all his books he's
[2723.18 --> 2729.32]  just an awesome dude yeah for sure any for you amas and amas you could uh you could even say uh
[2729.32 --> 2736.64]  your parents we've had that before yeah oh that's um i think dennis ritchie which wasn't really
[2736.64 --> 2745.18]  appreciated at this time um he died the same day uh the same week steve jobs died uh invented the
[2745.18 --> 2752.54]  language and and contributed to the unix um it was really cool i like those those ad guys
[2752.54 --> 2762.22]  in the duo of was and steve jobs i i'm i'm certainly the was um kind of guy yeah that's good
[2762.22 --> 2767.64]  yeah they need support too that's good yeah yeah totally they do cool stuff awesome they do cool
[2767.64 --> 2774.16]  stuff they they just do it because they like to do it not any other yeah yeah yeah i mean you when
[2774.16 --> 2778.86]  you kind of start reading into a lot of that history you see that it's it's generally the people
[2778.86 --> 2783.48]  with more moxie that become famous and not necessarily i mean not not to take anything
[2783.48 --> 2788.28]  away from steve jobs yeah of course i'm old but um that you know he has a moxie and that's kind of
[2788.28 --> 2794.10]  what what propels him to like super stardom status versus you know the uh the wazis of the world
[2794.10 --> 2799.86]  and was he so nice he loves to give you yeah yeah he's a nice guy he's a really nice guy
[2799.86 --> 2807.04]  awesome yeah well i wanted to say thanks so much for joining us on the show again it was uh
[2807.04 --> 2812.66]  amas aviv and roe schwaber cohen talking about mean js which uh sounds like it's it's it's just
[2812.66 --> 2817.66]  getting started but it's got some tremendous uh movement behind it and and i'm excited to kind of
[2817.66 --> 2822.58]  see where it goes um you you mentioned this before but what is the twitter for mean js that people can
[2822.58 --> 2830.74]  follow uh it's mean js org the website is mean js dot org um we're mean js on facebook and github
[2830.74 --> 2836.02]  um we hope twitter would give us the mean js name because it's abandoned for some reason
[2836.02 --> 2844.94]  uh but for now it's mean js org um awesome yeah well we'll be back next week with another show uh sorry
[2844.94 --> 2851.26]  that we have been absent a little bit i've been starting a new uh a new job and so it's been kind
[2851.26 --> 2856.50]  hectic so uh for our listeners we will be back next week and we'll be uh weekly from here on out so
[2856.50 --> 2861.46]  until next week let's say goodbye goodbye thank you guys thanks a lot guys
[2881.26 --> 2888.64]  uh