Open Sourcing .NET Core_transcript.txt

[0.00 --> 15.32]  welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode 134
[15.32 --> 22.28]  jared and i talked to the core team behind dot net core that's microsoft dot net core effects
[22.28 --> 28.32]  can't believe it we have microsoft on here talking about open source of all things we were surprised
[28.32 --> 34.28]  to definitely a great show we have rich lander emma landworth and varun gupta on the show great
[34.28 --> 39.06]  great conversation about microsoft and open source and lots and lots of fun we had some
[39.06 --> 45.76]  awesome sponsors for this show code ship top towel and rack space helping us make this show possible
[45.76 --> 50.84]  we'll talk about top towel and rack space a bit later on the show but our friends at code ship
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[92.40 --> 98.08]  codeship.io slash the changelog and tell them we sent you and now on to the show
[98.08 --> 111.60]  all right everybody we're joined back today we got a fun show lined up today we got myself here got
[111.60 --> 117.62]  jared here we got rich lander we got emo landworth we've got varoon gupta uh those guys are from the
[117.62 --> 124.40]  dot net core team over there at microsoft and i tell you this is this is maybe an unprecedented day
[124.40 --> 129.36]  for us because in the history of this show we've only had one show on dot net and that was on nougat
[129.36 --> 134.68]  um we didn't expect to ever have anyone from microsoft on the show talking about dot net being
[134.68 --> 139.50]  open source so i guess that's uh hands in the air on that one but um let's let's go around the table
[139.50 --> 144.16]  here real quick and give some intros so rich let's start with you emo and then varoon uh after that in
[144.16 --> 154.94]  no particular order sure um i'm rich lander as uh jared said and or sorry adam um and uh i've been at
[154.94 --> 164.12]  microsoft since 2000 i've been on the dot net team since uh 2003 and i've shipped each version of dot net
[164.12 --> 170.22]  since 2-0 it's uh been really interesting being on the team and building all the technology that we've
[170.22 --> 176.16]  been shipping to customers that whole time but uh this last little bit where we've been uh getting
[176.16 --> 181.88]  our open source project ready has been definitely the most exciting time in that that whole period
[181.88 --> 194.50]  all right and we got uh emo yeah so i joined microsoft in 2010 and uh i was a customer for a
[194.50 --> 202.78]  very long time i was basically on the first on the first beta is basically since 2002 i believe
[202.78 --> 208.32]  and uh so when i joined the uh the team i had a very much uh you know focus on dot net from a customer
[208.32 --> 212.42]  perspective and i'm super excited to see some of the things happening that we did over the last
[212.42 --> 216.92]  two years in particular releasing more stuff on new bit as well as open source that we're doing now
[216.92 --> 224.38]  so it's really great times for me as well gotcha all right varoon how about you uh hey guys i've been
[224.38 --> 232.10]  in microsoft for the last 10 years mostly around dot net um i'm part of the dot net team which is doing
[232.10 --> 238.30]  the open source work around dot net core interestingly i'm also part of the team that's helping set up
[238.30 --> 245.40]  dot net foundation so it's very exciting for me from both fronts uh you know seeing back last 10
[245.40 --> 251.18]  years definitely very exciting and a new path um but it's you know something we're all very excited
[251.18 --> 258.26]  about so jared i guess i'll open this uh this show up with probably the most important question we have
[258.26 --> 264.50]  here and to you guys too i mean congrats on taking this shift towards open source i think you'll probably
[264.50 --> 270.34]  see and you probably have seen already the the benefits of of just the open source community
[270.34 --> 275.40]  interacting with you know a wider developer base maybe than you're typically used to with feedback
[275.40 --> 280.72]  and issues and github and pull requests and all this you know collaboration that goes into building
[280.72 --> 286.26]  open source software these days so let's let's maybe ask the the biggest question here which is why
[286.26 --> 292.78]  open source and maybe even a tail-off question which is why now uh how about i'll answer the first
[292.78 --> 300.38]  question i think this is rich right yeah sorry this is rich uh i think the big um key motivation behind
[300.38 --> 309.66]  um why open source is that um we want to just reach developers who um we we can't typically reach
[309.66 --> 317.18]  with a pure kind of closed source uh offering and um there are plenty of folks out there that uh open
[317.18 --> 324.30]  source is a key requirement and uh we want to make them uh our customers as well um so that that's
[324.30 --> 331.24]  really that's really the big piece do you want to tackle the second one email why now yeah so the so
[331.24 --> 336.54]  why now question is interesting so like in the blog post that we published uh two weeks ago we basically
[336.54 --> 344.76]  uh sketched open source as effectively two pieces the first piece is uh cross-plaid which is uh if you think
[344.76 --> 349.02]  of any sort of serious cross-plaid projects and they all have one thing in common in their open
[349.02 --> 354.56]  source and it's not that open source is the only way to do cross-plaid work but it's uh probably the
[354.56 --> 360.52]  most um sustainable way of doing it because you can very easily incorporate other people that care
[360.52 --> 364.82]  about certain things that you either can't repo yet or you just don't care about this yet so a good
[364.82 --> 369.00]  example is if you look at linux for example when linus tol was started this whole project he
[369.00 --> 374.00]  still didn't care about 160 architectures uh for him to target right but over the years
[374.00 --> 378.44]  certain people jumped in that cared about certain architectures and then you know the breadth of the
[378.44 --> 383.20]  project significantly increased over time right and that's that's why it cross-plaid i think of uh
[383.20 --> 389.22]  if you look at dotnet the mono community is a very strong um force there so it would be very very
[389.22 --> 394.86]  you know idiotic from our side if you wouldn't um uh you know incorporate those communities and make
[394.86 --> 399.54]  it easier for them to work with us the second part of it is uh if you look back there for the last two
[399.54 --> 403.44]  years we're basically doing more and more agile delivery and uh from from our point of view
[403.44 --> 408.00]  agile delivery is really the key of uh you know making sure that the right things happening
[408.00 --> 412.96]  uh in a reasonable amount of time because the more complicated the project is and the more
[412.96 --> 417.66]  design up front you perform the higher the chances are you get something wrong at some point right and
[417.66 --> 422.64]  our project is now you know almost 15 years old if you consider the initial work time before it
[422.64 --> 428.06]  went published uh public so there's a lot of complexity in the product itself so by us being able to
[428.06 --> 433.06]  deliver things in an agile fashion that also means we get customer feedback way quicker uh we also
[433.06 --> 437.66]  have happier customers because when you file a bug you live long enough to actually see the bug being
[437.66 --> 442.14]  fixed as well so if you consider this you know in the previous time having like three years release
[442.14 --> 447.10]  cycles uh it was often very frustrating for customers and as i said i was a customer for a very
[447.10 --> 454.94]  long time so i filed a bug in 2004 that got uh closed as uh loan fixed in like 2009 or something so
[454.94 --> 459.68]  i can totally relate to this uh uh problem that you just you know don't get feedback from microsoft
[459.68 --> 464.30]  so agile really gives us this way of doing it and we ship uh packages on you get for over two years
[464.30 --> 469.30]  now on our team and and from from our point of view open source is really just the ultimate version
[469.30 --> 474.02]  of being agile right because you're essentially every time you commit something it's immediately live
[474.02 --> 479.78]  and in theory it's consumable uh modular any bugs so we get feedback pretty much in real time so
[479.78 --> 484.54]  instead of having a customer discussion every two years and we ship a beta we can actually have a
[484.54 --> 488.48]  discussion with the customer in real time and that's why open source now makes a lot more sense
[488.48 --> 494.56]  than it did you know maybe 10 years ago seems like quite a sea change from you know microsoft's
[494.56 --> 501.04]  previous stance um as you guys said in your blog post it was you know kind of you you open source to
[501.04 --> 507.92]  universal acclaim trending on github anything microsoft does makes a big splash but i'm interested in
[507.92 --> 515.84]  how this change came about inside of the company because uh it seems like such a change in strategy
[515.84 --> 521.88]  that usually those things have to be sold up a chain um whose idea was it and how long has it been
[521.88 --> 528.02]  like you guys trying to convince people or are you the ultimate decision makers it's clearly all emo's idea
[528.02 --> 529.16]  definitely
[529.16 --> 536.80]  good one yeah so i think on our side we're all very interested right now that basically say open source
[536.80 --> 542.52]  was my idea yeah but i think that you said like it's a strategy change i would agree that the strategy
[542.52 --> 546.90]  changed but i don't think it should be you know a massive surprise i mean if you if you look over
[546.90 --> 552.42]  the over the last i don't know probably longer years i mean dot net open source is not this you know
[552.42 --> 556.20]  the first open source project that microsoft did right the very first open source project was
[556.20 --> 561.26]  the windows installed the xml and that's not you know fairly long time ago uh asp.net is open
[561.26 --> 566.50]  source for quite a long time now and uh they've managed c sharp and bb compilers was in open source
[566.50 --> 571.82]  six months ago so there's there's clearly a progression where microsoft became um i think
[571.82 --> 576.08]  better at realizing what open source actually means right i mean there's like you know these bad quotes
[576.08 --> 580.76]  from balma like 10 years ago or something about gpl but if you if you realize like how we run with
[580.76 --> 585.66]  open source now i think uh it's clear that it's not a shift that happened overnight um and there's
[585.66 --> 591.76]  for example the shift designer of c sharp he had a lot of experience with open sourcing uh as part
[591.76 --> 597.02]  of the typescript initiative that was open source from the first day and he really absolutely liked
[597.02 --> 601.40]  the experience that that open source designing the open interacting with people in real time
[601.40 --> 605.74]  was ringing because you could reach developers that we just could never reach before right it's really
[605.74 --> 611.28]  about the conversation and and the you know you know the sheer innovation speed of which you can
[611.28 --> 615.38]  take the feedback and make something out of it um and i think in general like if you look at
[615.38 --> 620.24]  microsoft around i mean uh you know balma had this uh vision statement of devices and services for
[620.24 --> 625.26]  example and especially when you look at services and we are in the same work that delivers uh azure as
[625.26 --> 630.06]  well so there's this uh ntfs and both are services now and so they're both in a very aggressive
[630.06 --> 636.54]  uh timeline as far as you know releasing uh you know small increments of uh functionality and then
[636.54 --> 641.50]  getting customer feedback on it and and from our point of view the developer stack is uh something
[641.50 --> 645.18]  that you really have to give people's hand very early on in order to get meaningful feedback but
[645.18 --> 650.00]  we can't just ship faster you know the framework itself on windows because that just doesn't scale
[650.00 --> 654.58]  to 1.8 building machines you really have to have a way where we can give it to developers faster and
[654.58 --> 658.76]  so on that point of view i think that that open source is also just the continuation of you know
[658.76 --> 663.04]  dev ops or some of the other you know keywords that you have probably heard so you mentioned
[663.04 --> 668.14]  balmer and as we all know you guys have had a change in leadership here recently uh is the timing
[668.14 --> 675.80]  there uh coincidental uh or was that change in leadership kind of leading to this this this new
[675.80 --> 683.60]  stuff uh this rich again um i do not think it was coincidental uh if we look at the fact that um
[683.60 --> 692.28]  dotnet supporting linux and office supporting ios happened in the same year um i think uh that's
[692.28 --> 700.98]  clearly showing that we're trying to reach out to um uh you know to our customers and provide products
[700.98 --> 709.22]  on the os's where that they're using so uh i i think you're just seeing a shift in strategy
[709.22 --> 716.90]  at a fairly broad um level in microsoft i have to give you guys credit too because when you're
[716.90 --> 724.56]  embracing it you guys really are embracing open source um on github uh mit licensed stuff taking
[724.56 --> 728.78]  pull requests you know i always compare apple and microsoft when i'm looking at strategies because
[728.78 --> 733.14]  i just enjoy watching you guys do things apple's still kind of just like throwing their open source
[733.14 --> 739.36]  over the wall and just like here you go you know they're not really embracing it as a thing as much
[739.36 --> 744.76]  but you guys seem like you're really going for it yeah i think that's something that we that we
[744.76 --> 748.26]  learned over the years is i mean my team in particular we did open source or should say
[748.26 --> 753.12]  source open for a lot longer than uh than just the you know the current open source strategy like
[753.12 --> 757.00]  there was the managed sensibility framework that we published on code black a while ago
[757.00 --> 761.82]  but the the challenges that we always had that we basically did that you know source open where we
[761.82 --> 766.50]  basically give you the source but then there is a lot of challenges around us keeping the community
[766.50 --> 770.68]  around alive because it's not really the real thing might we give you like every once in a while
[770.68 --> 774.92]  the drop of the source and so the one thing that we learned over the years is that first of all
[774.92 --> 779.82]  that's just not sustainable from our side because if you think of microsoft as a company that delivers
[779.82 --> 785.66]  um uh you know a bunch of products then you always have these massive release cadences where
[785.66 --> 790.78]  you know towards the end game you are focusing on fixing bugs stabilization all of that and then the
[790.78 --> 795.38]  first thing that you stop doing is you know things that don't directly contribute value towards that
[795.38 --> 799.68]  goal and so from our point of view like maintaining an open source site somewhere as a
[799.68 --> 804.58]  as a site project it's just not maintainable it's the first thing that gets it's cut when you know
[804.58 --> 810.12]  people have to focus so the only way you can sustain open source is if if what you see on github is the
[810.12 --> 814.26]  real deal because that's something we can't cut right like when we stabilize then you know and we have to
[814.26 --> 820.04]  commit to the same repository everybody sees then there's really no option for us uh to discontinue that
[820.04 --> 824.12]  work and i think that's also something that the community really appreciates because i think in open
[824.12 --> 828.64]  source in general and i think that's true in any community it's definitely true in marriages right that
[828.64 --> 833.84]  people don't want to get surprised right you basically want to have a trusted relationship
[833.84 --> 838.14]  with each other so if you get the impression that microsoft is holding something back because we go
[838.14 --> 842.88]  dark for half a year like even if we don't do anything bad it still has this very bad taste of us
[842.88 --> 846.70]  not telling me everything right and i think that's something that i think we learned very you know
[846.70 --> 851.56]  the hard way over the years and uh but i totally agree with your sentiment that you know i was a customer
[851.56 --> 856.58]  for a long time i pitched about microsoft like everybody else and uh one thing i realized internally is that
[856.58 --> 860.58]  you know things if they change they really change i mean people really embrace it and then go
[860.58 --> 864.92]  wholeheartedly with that vision and that's why i'm so excited about open source because i think
[864.92 --> 870.52]  you know we normally have like any way to to back off from that like now we are all in and i think that
[870.52 --> 875.56]  this trend will continue i like the term all in too especially for you because like you said when you
[875.56 --> 883.42]  make a turn or you make a change it tends to be pretty drastic or you know it's not an easy shift you
[883.42 --> 889.26]  sort of make quick decisions when it comes to to big turns like that one thing you said that i'd like
[889.26 --> 894.06]  to camp out on for just a second was the flip side of open source i never really thought about and maybe
[894.06 --> 898.96]  this is a new term to me or just a new term in general but source open versus open source being
[898.96 --> 904.86]  pretty much the exact opposite where open source is focused on uh like jared said not pulling an apple
[904.86 --> 908.94]  where you're just throwing the code over the over the wall and hoping for the best and not really
[908.94 --> 914.16]  embracing the community and where can you talk a little bit about that shift particularly with
[914.16 --> 919.22]  source open versus open source and maybe i guess maybe you've already done that to a degree but
[919.22 --> 924.44]  feel free to ramble on source open versus open source for a bit do you have any thoughts on that varoon
[924.44 --> 931.06]  yeah i think we had a reference sources up there for a while they were under the reference source
[931.06 --> 939.08]  license um but it was you know basically one way so what we this time it's very different we have
[939.08 --> 945.02]  resources up there and there's a lot of activity and we are basically two way it's basically the real
[945.02 --> 950.40]  way i mean what you were referring with apple is probably what we were doing earlier but the current
[950.40 --> 957.80]  effort is really about getting our stuff open source in a meaningful way and as you know your question
[957.80 --> 962.84]  earlier the mood in the dotnet team and you know how we're looking at it you know i i would actually
[962.84 --> 969.70]  put it this way there's a lot of excitement within the team and that's reflecting on the repo uh
[969.70 --> 975.04]  basically every day we have you know stand-ups and hallway meetings and stuff like that and chats
[975.04 --> 980.32]  uh and everyone is super excited like we are talking about you know what's the next full request
[980.32 --> 985.56]  coming and we're discussing about those and having a good time about it i think all of that is kind of
[985.56 --> 991.16]  reflecting on you know github the all the energy in the team the team in general is very excited about
[991.16 --> 999.10]  it excited about the open source aspect what um when you say team varoon um beyond you rich and emo
[999.10 --> 1006.16]  um who is who is the dotnet team you know how how big is that i mean obviously it's probably large but
[1006.16 --> 1013.14]  you know how give the audience a an example of how big your team is and the excitement size well i'll just
[1013.14 --> 1021.70]  cover the team size we have a lot of people working on like on dotnet in general um in the division so
[1021.70 --> 1027.58]  we're in developer division and so we have a ton of people working on you know visual studio on dotnet
[1027.58 --> 1033.34]  framework on compilers but i think your question is more maybe the size of the team that is working
[1033.34 --> 1039.98]  on dotnet core itself that's certainly well with the team that released the framework libraries that
[1039.98 --> 1045.80]  you saw there's tens of people that are working on that and then the runtime will come later there's
[1045.80 --> 1052.32]  some other set of tens of people working on that uh so all told i think you're probably looking at
[1052.32 --> 1058.28]  about 100 people working on uh the code base that's going to ship in um that's going to be available on
[1058.28 --> 1064.26]  github that's actually a lot of investment if you're wanting to you know make it bet on dotnet
[1064.26 --> 1070.02]  um you can see that there's a lot of people working at microsoft to provide you with a quality code base
[1070.02 --> 1077.16]  so let's talk about exactly which pieces of code are out there right now because let's face it y'all
[1077.16 --> 1082.90]  have a lot of software over there and there's distinctions between dotnet core dotnet framework
[1082.90 --> 1088.18]  entity framework so on and so forth if you go to your guys's microsoft's github page which i think is
[1088.18 --> 1095.36]  just microsoft dot github dot io um tons of repos kind of highlight the big ones and kind of show us
[1095.36 --> 1101.74]  tell us maybe what's not there yet well yeah so basically if you look at dotnet core what you see
[1101.74 --> 1107.50]  today on github is a very small number of libraries we have immutable collections we have the metadata
[1107.50 --> 1113.32]  reader that rostin is using we have xml and we have our vector library that uh enables sim the
[1113.32 --> 1117.82]  intrinsics and you know the question is why did we pick these four and not some other random slice and
[1117.82 --> 1122.76]  the the the reason is as i said earlier like from forest number one priority is to make open source
[1122.76 --> 1127.76]  real is that the thing that you see on the website is the thing that we can actually build uh ourselves
[1127.76 --> 1133.34]  and actually you know use the you know the actual source to deliver the the actual product and so
[1133.34 --> 1137.48]  there's some engineering initiative that we have to do internally to decouple our our built
[1137.48 --> 1142.22]  infrastructure from from the libraries themselves and as you can imagine like dev dev is super large and
[1142.22 --> 1147.40]  we have you know tens 10 years of like you know code base uh and built infrastructure that we have to
[1147.40 --> 1150.96]  decouple in order to make that work so that these four libraries that are out there on github right
[1150.96 --> 1155.78]  now and dotnet core are essentially just you know the libraries that you know we could easily extract
[1155.78 --> 1160.26]  because they're the you know the most recent ones we did um xml is certainly not the most recent one
[1160.26 --> 1164.28]  but it was right you know one of our or few libraries that we could just say okay this is the one we can
[1164.28 --> 1169.50]  decouple very quickly and so what you will see over over time is that um the entire dotnet core stack
[1169.50 --> 1175.08]  which basically includes the runtime includes the bcl layer includes networking uh and uh also
[1175.08 --> 1180.66]  includes hpl.net on top as the app model will be open sourced and so as right now as i said there's
[1180.66 --> 1185.34]  a smaller segment in it so you can basically watch us as we add more libraries and i think you know
[1185.34 --> 1189.16]  over the next couple of weeks there's like i think three or four libraries being scheduled for being
[1189.16 --> 1194.14]  added uh console is being one of them data flow is another and so that you know there's certainly more
[1194.14 --> 1199.16]  growth if you look at the other repos as i said that if you look at dotnet core it's you know one way to
[1199.16 --> 1205.04]  think about the core fx repo is it's essentially the bcl and so the bcl is basically the libraries
[1205.04 --> 1210.58]  that everybody has to use right and then you have asp.net which is uh essentially the um the modern
[1210.58 --> 1216.10]  web uh framework that's just on top of dotnet core as well as the full framework as a as a runtime
[1216.10 --> 1221.12]  option and then you have entity framework and you have uh the you know the rost and compilers which
[1221.12 --> 1225.72]  are not on github yet they're on complex still and so the all these things in combination are
[1225.72 --> 1231.54]  effective with the dotnet platform and um asp.net basically when they started developing uh asp.net
[1231.54 --> 1236.58]  five they already knew that they would go open source entirely so they started pretty much uh you
[1236.58 --> 1241.12]  know working on github from day one versus on our side as i said we you know dotnet core is still
[1241.12 --> 1247.08]  something that is in our internal servers and we're extracting it as we go and so um i think that
[1247.08 --> 1251.96]  should cover what's on github now as far as the dotnet framework goes we essentially have two stacks
[1251.96 --> 1257.34]  and right now if you go to the dotnet uh blog i just published a blog post about dotnet core and
[1257.34 --> 1261.90]  how it relates to the full framework so you can think of dotnet essentially our side as being two
[1261.90 --> 1267.18]  stacks one of them is the is the dotnet framework which is the you know you know full flavored stack
[1267.18 --> 1272.32]  that we shipped you know 15 years ago uh and uh that is the one that actually includes you know
[1272.32 --> 1276.82]  desktop scenarios it includes web scenarios it includes uh pretty much every scenario the developer ever
[1276.82 --> 1281.44]  wanted and then on the other side you have dotnet core which is which is essentially a fork
[1281.44 --> 1285.78]  and so the question is why do we have a fork and the the the reason really is it has to do with
[1285.78 --> 1291.62]  our ability to evolve that stack so that in core is essentially a stack where factoring concerns and
[1291.62 --> 1297.40]  modularity was a key concern from day one versus dotnet framework was never a concern as far as
[1297.40 --> 1301.20]  deployment goes because you know the dotnet framework was designed to be deployed with windows
[1301.20 --> 1306.70]  as one monolithic entity so factoring was never really a concern but now when you think about the you
[1306.70 --> 1313.22]  know the breadth of devices and uh the the scale that it has to um um has to do then the question
[1313.22 --> 1317.18]  really becomes how do we ensure that we have the same architecture and can evolve this thing over
[1317.18 --> 1320.96]  the time and so when we did dotnet core we really focused on that and that's why we have two stacks
[1320.96 --> 1326.96]  today and uh as far as open source goes one of the one of the key things that that we need to focus
[1326.96 --> 1331.80]  on is being able to not just release source on a regular cadence but also take contributions back
[1331.80 --> 1335.84]  and i think an open source product isn't really an open source product unless you can really involve
[1335.84 --> 1340.44]  the community which obviously involves you know bug fixes and spec reviews but it also involves
[1340.44 --> 1345.12]  actually taking code and so the dotnet framework because it ships with windows it's you know pushed
[1345.12 --> 1350.32]  out by windows update there's a super high compact bar for that and the problem is once you ship on 1.8
[1350.32 --> 1356.00]  billion machines it's really no longer about whether you fulfill your contract it's also about the fact
[1356.00 --> 1360.72]  that do you fulfill the implied contract because when you have apps running in that you know at that
[1360.72 --> 1366.16]  you know sheer size then there's a lot of like implicit dependencies so even for us it's very
[1366.16 --> 1370.48]  hard to evolve the full framework at this point because every time you make a change there's this
[1370.48 --> 1375.38]  trade-off between oh did this break somebody or not and the dotnet core stack is completely designed
[1375.38 --> 1381.56]  to be app local so from our point of view it's very easy to actually take contributions on on dotnet core
[1381.56 --> 1386.40]  because it's very easy to reason about what happens if we take that source code and so that's why
[1386.40 --> 1390.48]  dotnet framework um you know we released parts of it that corresponds to all
[1390.48 --> 1395.92]  core stack as open source on github in the sense that it's an open source compliant license so it's
[1395.92 --> 1400.56]  all using the the mit license but we don't run it as an open source project so we don't take
[1400.56 --> 1405.60]  contributions back on the full framework stack uh from our point of view the the real open source
[1405.60 --> 1411.76]  strategy is on dotnet core and that's where the focus of attention is all right let's pause the show
[1411.76 --> 1415.92]  just a minute give a shout out to a sponsor i want to thank top top for their support of this show
[1415.92 --> 1421.68]  you know besides my personal experience with top top pure charity uh as many of you know who've
[1421.68 --> 1426.88]  been listening to the show a while and those who are new uh i work at a non-profit called pure charity
[1427.44 --> 1433.52]  and earlier this year we had a huge need for uh several ruby developers and within a matter of
[1433.52 --> 1438.40]  weeks top to helped us find some of the best and we still have them on our team some of the best
[1438.96 --> 1444.08]  ruby on rails developers we could ever find this show in particular we're talking about dotnet we're
[1444.08 --> 1448.88]  talking to the team at microsoft behind dotnet core effects being open source and what they're
[1448.88 --> 1453.60]  doing with the dotnet framework but even you as a as a developer or someone out there who's trying
[1453.60 --> 1459.44]  to hire a developer uh to join their team go to top top.com they'll take great care of you you can
[1459.44 --> 1464.80]  freelance this developer you can hire dotnet developers the full gamut top top.com tell them
[1464.80 --> 1472.24]  the changelog sent you so dotnet core you said the the term bco i translated as his base class license
[1472.24 --> 1477.92]  or sorry um base class library my bad i was uh stuck on your word of license back there for a
[1477.92 --> 1483.52]  second but am i right to assume that when you say base class library okay so you use the term bcl there
[1483.52 --> 1490.08]  to talk about dotnet core um and you use the word forked too so to slow down a bit for the listeners who
[1490.08 --> 1494.96]  are like just probably like i am like asking a bunch of questions as they're listening to you or um
[1494.96 --> 1503.20]  um is is dotnet core then a fork of of the framework then and will there be will there be a second
[1503.20 --> 1506.88]  version of the framework that's sort of open source and the dotnet framework that's sort of
[1506.88 --> 1513.92]  proprietary and closed source that you control that's that's kind of the model except that uh you
[1513.92 --> 1518.32]  know as i said the dotnet framework is super large but it also has client technologies like winforms and
[1518.32 --> 1525.20]  wpath on top but there's certainly also the bcl part in the full framework as well and so when we
[1525.20 --> 1529.60]  when i said fork i mean you can think of it we took the sources in the full framework and just
[1529.60 --> 1534.80]  packaged it slightly differently for dotnet core and so one thing we did for example is uh changing the
[1534.80 --> 1539.84]  assemblies themselves or the you know physical files that actually contain the the binary code and
[1539.84 --> 1544.24]  that is basically done in order to support the new factoring goals and that required some changes to
[1544.24 --> 1550.96]  the source so um from that point of view there are some differences in the in the api sets but we
[1550.96 --> 1556.16]  still are fully committed on keeping a story where you can basically create libraries that run on either
[1556.16 --> 1560.72]  side so you can only create a library that runs on full framework as well as dotnet core so there is
[1560.72 --> 1568.00]  a compatibility story between the two stacks but as far as evolution goes you can think of it as similar to
[1568.00 --> 1572.88]  the you know to open source in general where you basically have uh you know the the latest hot
[1572.88 --> 1576.72]  stuff is you know whatever the latest commit in the repo is people can download this build it locally
[1576.72 --> 1582.56]  and run it then the next step on our side is we release open source uh pre-packaged as a bunch of
[1582.56 --> 1586.72]  new get packages and so we ship these package every once in a while when the team that owns the particular
[1586.72 --> 1591.76]  component you know test that component and signs off of that but that's a you know per component thing
[1591.76 --> 1596.48]  and then the next step is basically we take a bunch of new get packages and effectively do the same thing
[1596.48 --> 1600.24]  that open sources with distributions and we basically take a whole bunch of packages together
[1600.24 --> 1605.44]  and say this is the next version of dotnet core and so a fourth step conceptually is it's porting
[1605.44 --> 1610.24]  these you know this you know the the innovation that happened on dotnet core back to the full
[1610.24 --> 1615.76]  framework and that is like just from a machine engineering if yeah effort that is always somewhat
[1615.76 --> 1620.88]  lacking behind because as i said touching full framework is hard we take our responsibility on
[1620.88 --> 1626.64]  compatibility extremely seriously so we don't just roll the latest build out and so that that requires some
[1626.64 --> 1631.60]  some some some delay essentially and so from that point of view the the core pieces of it are
[1631.60 --> 1634.80]  available as open source on the on the full framework but not everything is
[1636.48 --> 1641.04]  do you have that written down somewhere because uh my head's spinning a little bit it sounds like a lot
[1641.04 --> 1646.56]  of process maybe your direct customers probably follow that a little better than i did but it seems like
[1646.56 --> 1652.48]  um perhaps some clarity on exactly how it all works do you guys have that documented anywhere or
[1652.48 --> 1656.96]  somebody who wanted to get involved could go and say okay here's how here's what i can contribute with
[1656.96 --> 1662.56]  with here's the stuff i can't here's how it all gets shipped is that anywhere yeah so as i said like
[1662.56 --> 1666.96]  there's basically two blog posts on our side that basically summarize them up there there's one on
[1666.96 --> 1672.80]  dotnet core open source which is uh about two weeks old and then just today i published a blog post on
[1672.80 --> 1677.44]  what is dotnet core and how it relates to the full framework um and you know what are the what are
[1677.44 --> 1682.24]  the differences between the two and how do we think about that gotcha awesome now i'm sitting here you
[1682.24 --> 1687.68]  said the word forked and this might be a fun tangent um you guys got some forks out here
[1687.68 --> 1694.96]  on your guys's microsoft page you forked redis you forked node you forked docker uh safe to assume that
[1694.96 --> 1700.96]  you guys are building technologies on top of these open source projects uh in-house uh well this is rich
[1700.96 --> 1706.64]  again there's probably a little bit of clarification that's be useful here okay uh so there's actually two
[1706.64 --> 1714.64]  github well actually there's multiple github orgs okay um that we're using microsoft the microsoft
[1714.64 --> 1723.44]  org is the main github organization that microsoft is using um as you might guess and so there's teams
[1723.44 --> 1729.76]  that we're like we don't even know anything about necessarily that operate in that org and so you said
[1729.76 --> 1737.92]  you know someone for redis um we actually have no clue um about that yeah i mean obviously we could
[1737.92 --> 1743.52]  find out kind of thing but um we have like zero insight into that i'm seeing now at the bottom of
[1743.52 --> 1749.76]  that page there's other hype microsoft github orgs and you guys have man double digits yeah we actually
[1749.76 --> 1756.56]  have like 20 or 30 or 40 orgs we're actually trying to move more people over to the microsoft org to make
[1756.56 --> 1765.68]  it a little bit easier to navigate but um the thing um is our work is actually in the dotnet org
[1765.68 --> 1771.20]  gotcha yeah that's where dotnet core lives uh actually verun can speak to to this piece what
[1771.20 --> 1780.72]  the dotnet org is and why um dotnet core is in there right so basically dotnet repo is actually the
[1780.72 --> 1786.16]  repo for dotnet foundation the open source effort um you know the open source community effort
[1786.16 --> 1794.24]  around dotnet in general with the community so dotnet core became open source it joined the
[1794.24 --> 1800.72]  community as well dotnet foundation community so they were setting up a new repo um so basically
[1800.72 --> 1808.00]  uh you know we had a lively discussion and they actually set it up the repo directly in the foundation
[1808.00 --> 1815.60]  so that org uh in the github you know organization is dotnet foundation organization and dotnet core
[1816.16 --> 1823.68]  has joined uh the organization and is basically doing all the open source work in the open and you know
[1823.68 --> 1830.32]  rich can talk about how mono is also in there um you know basically actively participating in the
[1830.32 --> 1837.36]  discussions and the efforts yeah what vroom was mentioning is there we have a dotnet foundation
[1837.36 --> 1847.20]  dot org website and there's some forums on that at forums dot dotnet foundation dot org and for those
[1847.20 --> 1852.64]  of you um who know about dotnet open source you'll probably know about the mono project and so we're
[1852.64 --> 1861.36]  very much um collaborating with that project both in a code sense as well as um collaborating together
[1861.36 --> 1867.04]  and talking together in these forums and if you take a look at the forums you'll probably get a sense of that
[1867.36 --> 1875.60]  okay and for those who are unaware can you uh give a brief rundown of mono sure mono is essentially um
[1876.40 --> 1885.60]  a clone of um the dotnet that um microsoft built it's i don't know the exact date of its inception
[1886.24 --> 1894.08]  but um it's in the early 2000s for sure and uh it's headed by a guy named uh miguel de casa
[1894.08 --> 1901.36]  who actually had worked on some other open source projects i think he'd worked on the gnome uh window
[1901.36 --> 1910.08]  manager oh i'm correct on that point and um anyway it's it's a project that uh a lot of people have
[1910.08 --> 1917.20]  used um more recently it's actually been used to target ios and android as part of the uh a tool set
[1917.20 --> 1925.44]  built by xamarin who miguel actually works for he's actually a founder of that company and um
[1925.44 --> 1931.20]  the thing i think is really interesting right now is microsoft like the dotnet team at microsoft and
[1931.20 --> 1939.28]  the mono project are now working closely together to um kind of deliver coherent and consistent dotnet
[1939.28 --> 1947.04]  implementations for all um dotnet users on the planet essentially and we didn't quite have that
[1947.04 --> 1953.92]  kind of an arrangement before so uh i think it's really really positive and uh you'll see that i
[1953.92 --> 1959.52]  think you'll really see that come together probably next year right now we're just kind of trying to get
[1959.52 --> 1966.64]  everything laid out you know this news of us open sourcing is also new to miguel so i think by the time
[1966.64 --> 1972.48]  we get say to you know the middle of next year i think we'll have a much more a much better sense
[1972.48 --> 1976.80]  of what it is that the two projects are doing together we're very much you know still trying
[1976.80 --> 1981.60]  to figure that out that's awesome i mean i think the cross-platform aspect of this is going to be a
[1981.60 --> 1988.48]  huge win for developers everywhere i fact checked your uh your your gnome there and you drilled it uh
[1988.48 --> 1993.60]  okay awesome so just uh while you're talking there i was like i looked it up yeah yeah i do i mean we
[1993.60 --> 1998.80]  we know miguel personally so uh but i just wanted to yeah make sure that was correct
[2000.72 --> 2005.44]  can we uh maybe camp out there for just a sec on the on the cross-platform thing and maybe just the
[2005.44 --> 2009.20]  the fork thing and the open source thing i think it's sort of the the summary of what we've been
[2009.20 --> 2014.96]  talking about for the last 20-30 minutes but um you know what's the true goal here you know varoon
[2014.96 --> 2020.72]  you mentioned earlier uh cross-platform as a is a nice advantage of of going open source
[2020.72 --> 2026.40]  um it mentioned embracing the community embracing actually open source versus source open
[2026.96 --> 2031.52]  what's the what do you think what can you share about the true goal the overall goal of
[2032.16 --> 2037.92]  open sourcing.net core versus keeping a closed source and not embracing community
[2039.12 --> 2045.12]  so i think you meant me not varoon but that's okay um so i think from the the other the other
[2045.12 --> 2054.88]  um maybe i have a light sound so soon was it was it mo yeah oh sorry you know you take it i think the
[2055.84 --> 2061.52]  one of the one of the challenges is as i said is that you know microsoft is as which mentioned now
[2061.52 --> 2065.92]  certainly going you know out of more devices i think the the general realization that everybody
[2065.92 --> 2070.96]  in the industry is now uh making is that you know there's no longer like true monoculture so
[2070.96 --> 2075.68]  there there there's many like you know device ranges and like they all have certain market
[2075.68 --> 2081.68]  segments but in order to to be successful uh as far as an application experience skills those span
[2081.68 --> 2085.68]  devices now right like you can even if you're say even if microsoft would say you want to focus on
[2085.68 --> 2090.32]  windows the the reality is there's so many other devices and experiences out there that you kind of
[2090.32 --> 2095.12]  have to integrate into that's expected from an app standpoint that basically requires you to to
[2095.12 --> 2100.08]  support not just one thing you can still say as an application developer you know i provide you know
[2100.08 --> 2104.48]  the best experience or you know most of my features in a certain in a certain vertical but you know
[2104.48 --> 2109.60]  the integration points are the ones that you still have to you know deal with somehow and uh dot
[2109.60 --> 2115.92]  net was pretty much from the get-go designed to become to to have a single experience on a variety of
[2115.92 --> 2120.48]  scenarios so if you look at the original design of win forms and web forms for example somebody really
[2120.48 --> 2124.32]  made sure that they are pretty much the same no i would argue that for that that was a mistake
[2124.32 --> 2129.04]  because it's not an event-based paradigm but that you know in the spirit of making things similar i think
[2129.04 --> 2133.84]  that that's still very much uh an important scenario for for for many people because if you think from
[2133.84 --> 2137.76]  a just on an epic from an architectural layering perspective there's always pieces of your code
[2137.76 --> 2142.48]  that you want to reuse across the devices right some business logic you know some you know some
[2142.48 --> 2148.40]  logic that does something in your app and and you know from it from a scenario standpoint dot net
[2148.40 --> 2152.48]  wants to enable those scenarios and that that has to that certainly means that we have to go
[2153.04 --> 2157.52]  effectively where the app has to go and in today's world as i said like there's mac there's ios there's
[2157.52 --> 2162.00]  android there's there's linux and so we you have to enable the stack to go there from that from
[2162.00 --> 2166.64]  that point of view i think that open source is really about increasing the breadth of dot net
[2167.36 --> 2172.48]  and making it easier for people to just stick to one technology if they if they chose to do that but
[2172.48 --> 2176.24]  you know but they'd always had great availability with native code so if you want to do something
[2176.24 --> 2181.60]  else uh you know providing a native ui for example uh and then you know call into dot net or the other
[2181.60 --> 2185.92]  way around there's certainly stories for that as well so when we talk about cross-platform i just one
[2185.92 --> 2190.24]  question here for the listeners who are thinking like okay so what does this thing work on what
[2190.24 --> 2196.16]  can i if i'm hacking today could i pull it down start working on it today what platforms are currently
[2196.16 --> 2201.84]  supported by dot net dot net core dot net uh framework framework that's the word i was looking for
[2201.84 --> 2210.24]  the other f word the good f word uh i could take that one that's rich um right now both dot net core and
[2210.24 --> 2217.36]  dot net framework support only windows so just to back up a little bit we've we've clearly stated that
[2217.36 --> 2225.68]  um for dot net core we're going to um uh support it on mac and linux as well and so we kind of had a
[2225.68 --> 2232.56]  decision to make which was should we wait until we've done all the engineering work at which point
[2232.56 --> 2239.36]  we support linux and mac as well as windows and then open source or should we open source with our
[2239.36 --> 2247.76]  windows implementation start to build a community and then build the uh linux and mac support in the
[2247.76 --> 2254.88]  open and so as you can guess we chose this latter option and i i like that option yeah i really feel
[2254.88 --> 2260.00]  like it was the right option especially given the response that we saw i think it's just been
[2260.56 --> 2266.40]  hugely validated that it was the right option that's essentially what we're doing so we do not yet have the
[2266.40 --> 2271.68]  the linux and mac support but we're uh we've started already started working on it um we have
[2271.68 --> 2277.68]  people who that's their main job is building linux and mac support into dot net core and uh you're going
[2277.68 --> 2283.60]  to see that um start to arrive pretty soon now it's it's it's not going to all appear on one day
[2284.48 --> 2287.76]  it's going to be very iterative is there one that's first before the other
[2289.20 --> 2296.32]  that's a good question i don't think we've made a plan uh quite like that yet well what i would say is
[2296.40 --> 2299.76]  in general like if you look at how dot net works i mean there's certainly things that are
[2299.76 --> 2303.92]  innovative platform independent right i mean all the collection libraries like immutable collections
[2303.92 --> 2308.88]  probably works today as it is already on any environment you know things that interact with
[2308.88 --> 2313.44]  the operating system like file systems and other things are obviously a bit more involved and then
[2313.44 --> 2319.20]  as you go to the lower stack uh you know we have this very you know thin layer that basically ties the
[2319.20 --> 2324.48]  the actual framework towards runtime and so you know on our side we basically have two different
[2324.48 --> 2329.44]  runtime strategies today we have a legit based runtime and we have an ahead of time compiled runtime
[2329.44 --> 2333.76]  and so we also make investments to make the runtimes available cross-clad but that's obviously
[2333.76 --> 2338.48]  something that is more like an all-in or nothing because you need the entire runtime uh up and running
[2338.48 --> 2343.60]  before you can actually run any managed code so there's certainly some um you know some investment
[2343.60 --> 2348.56]  there as well but as far as libraries go i mean you can probably already compile some of our libraries
[2348.56 --> 2353.04]  there that are in github i would say that the metadata reader probably uh in some way or the other
[2353.04 --> 2358.64]  already works on mono because there was a demo that we gilded where uh the majesty shop bb compilers
[2358.64 --> 2364.88]  we use that component already run on mono new collections should just work and so uh i think the very first
[2364.88 --> 2369.52]  thing we probably do is on our side uh you know add the build scripts we can actually build on a non-windows
[2369.52 --> 2374.56]  machine and then set up a ci system so we can actually uh you know validate for requests across the
[2374.56 --> 2378.96]  different platforms but as far as the ability goes to just take the source from one of it today you should
[2378.96 --> 2383.36]  be already be able to do that the one thing i want to add is that you know it's always true that
[2383.36 --> 2388.08]  dotnet was you know cross-platform if you screen hard enough right because the mono was around for a
[2388.08 --> 2392.64]  long time now but i think the real difference is now that we normally have a fourth community you know
[2392.64 --> 2396.72]  where you know one side does the windows thing which is microsoft and then this is other community that
[2396.72 --> 2402.56]  does the linux implementation the intent of dotnet core is really to have one unified code base that runs on
[2403.12 --> 2408.72]  you know linux windows and mac and not just that also on top of that microsoft actually says we support
[2408.96 --> 2412.88]  these three things so it's no longer the case that you know there's a microsoft distribution that is
[2412.88 --> 2416.80]  windows and then there is let's say a mono distribution that does linux and mac it will
[2416.80 --> 2421.92]  actually be coming from you know from from from one corporation so to speak you know as far as baking
[2421.92 --> 2426.64]  goes but as far as the community goes it's really just one big community where microsoft plays one
[2426.64 --> 2431.20]  part in it and then you know the mono community plays another part and whoever else wants to join in
[2431.20 --> 2436.48]  plays their part all right let's take a break from the show real quick we got to mention a sponsor
[2436.48 --> 2443.12]  that sponsor is rackspace rackspace loves open source they love supporting their community and
[2443.12 --> 2447.28]  just one of the ways they're doing that is by sponsoring this show right here that you're listening
[2447.28 --> 2452.32]  to and that's why they're giving you and everyone else who wants it fifty dollars a month in credit
[2452.32 --> 2457.84]  for 12 months to explore their open cloud get a free developer plus account today to get started
[2457.84 --> 2463.28]  you get dev to dev support so if you get complex questions you can talk directly to their developers
[2463.28 --> 2468.96]  they're the same experts who write their sdks and their apis and get access to all their services
[2468.96 --> 2477.44]  monitoring dns auto scaling orchestration private networking message queues and more all for free
[2477.44 --> 2482.64]  there's no usage limits whatsoever so use their services as much as you want you're only billed
[2482.64 --> 2488.00]  for the usage above fifty dollars a month they have open source libraries to support any language of
[2488.00 --> 2493.68]  your choice and for those listening today they do support dot net go to the change law dot com
[2493.68 --> 2500.16]  slash rackspace to get started and now back to the show earlier on you guys mentioned i think uh
[2500.80 --> 2508.00]  was it emma who made the marriage analogy i want to get i want to get back to that here uh
[2508.80 --> 2513.76]  yeah that was all about his personal life was laughing his butt off so if rins got something up his
[2513.76 --> 2518.56]  sleeve i think well i want to get back to that for a second because uh i love you guys excitement
[2518.56 --> 2523.92]  and this is a really cool stuff the community was you know jumped on it everybody even microsoft haters
[2523.92 --> 2528.40]  were like wow that's really awesome um and you mentioned how excited you guys are for pull requests
[2528.40 --> 2533.04]  and stuff and i would say you're very much in the honeymoon phase of open source where everything's
[2533.04 --> 2537.84]  exciting you know i've had that situation where i get a bug fixed to my repository and i didn't have
[2537.84 --> 2542.48]  to do it myself and that was awesome um we spoke with a lot of people over the years where
[2543.12 --> 2548.00]  they've been maintaining open source projects for a time and started off exciting and they got you
[2548.00 --> 2554.64]  know a lot of press or whatever and uh it was fun and then over time it became hard work um obviously
[2554.64 --> 2560.40]  you guys are doing this as part of you know your jobs but running open source project can be difficult
[2560.40 --> 2567.76]  it can be taxing it can have moments where um you know this pull request you know is is excellent
[2567.76 --> 2571.52]  but it actually goes against our business goals so there's all these different concerns were these
[2571.52 --> 2577.04]  things you guys thought about as you decided open source yeah i can take this one this is varon
[2578.16 --> 2582.56]  yeah i think uh here the culture of the team kind of comes into play uh you know that's what i was
[2582.56 --> 2589.04]  talking about earlier so you know when i look at the team our engineering team you know all of them
[2589.04 --> 2595.12]  are really excited about you know open source they feel like uh they're not just doing it you know as
[2595.12 --> 2600.32]  part of their jobs i mean if you look at the github repo you know how it looks and everything folks are
[2600.32 --> 2606.56]  truly excited the only difference is they're getting paid for it uh you know so basically that's why i
[2606.56 --> 2612.80]  think the excitement around open source uh you know will continue here there are you know obviously the
[2612.80 --> 2617.60]  kind of things you mentioned about you know we have to think through you know how we are going to process
[2617.60 --> 2623.68]  you know full request in a democratic way uh you know moving forward uh you know how do we you know
[2623.68 --> 2629.52]  work on some of the contentious things you know obviously you know as engineers we tend to get into
[2629.52 --> 2635.36]  our discussions and stuff like that and how do we kind of handle them uh you know with a broader audience
[2635.36 --> 2640.24]  so all of those challenges are true but i think the true uh you know thing that makes me excited
[2640.24 --> 2645.04]  about this whole thing is the culture on the team that's that's really unique uh you know i was
[2645.04 --> 2651.92]  telling this to you know imo the other day that you know it doesn't feel like that i am uh you know
[2651.92 --> 2657.04]  working in a team which my friends think you know i am you know probably working as you know you know
[2657.04 --> 2660.96]  my friends are not from microsoft they think they're probably wearing suits or something but
[2662.24 --> 2669.28]  here i think the culture of the team is very very different truly excited and you know basically
[2669.28 --> 2674.96]  uh you know if i use the phrase living in github you're not wearing suits then uh no we're not
[2674.96 --> 2681.28]  wearing suits t-shirts shorts flip-flops or what uh in the summer we'd be wearing flip-flops um it's
[2681.28 --> 2686.48]  pretty cold in washington right now that's true yeah it's just about freezing so um yeah we're skipping
[2686.48 --> 2692.00]  the shorts uh well i've heard the rule is if it's above 30 even flip-flops are okay yeah i thought you
[2692.00 --> 2695.84]  kept it so warm there as you wore your cold clothes on the way to work and when you got there you changed
[2695.84 --> 2702.08]  into your warm clothes totally yes i i just like to comment on a question that you guys were kind
[2702.08 --> 2708.16]  of asking earlier back to the motivation piece so we talked a lot about the motivation for open source
[2708.16 --> 2715.68]  but we didn't um really address the motivation for cross-plat quite as much and um from a corporate
[2715.68 --> 2722.40]  customer standpoint we actually do get a lot of customers coming to us that say uh you know really
[2722.40 --> 2728.48]  love dotnet love c sharp it's very productive we can build the apps we want to with it but we've got
[2728.48 --> 2734.08]  a bunch of linux machines um that we've been using and you know we're trying to consolidate
[2734.72 --> 2743.12]  our dev platform across everything we do we want it to be dotnet um so please build a linux version for
[2743.12 --> 2750.96]  us you might be surprised at how often that question comes through uh another one is that uh that's
[2750.96 --> 2759.28]  fairly similar in nature is um i think we've publicly stated that about 20 of the vms in azure are linux now
[2760.00 --> 2768.24]  and um we very much want to be able to give a consistent um offering of developer platforms that
[2768.24 --> 2776.16]  work on both linux and windows server in azure you know azure will continue to have the model of you
[2776.16 --> 2782.24]  you know it's your vm run what you want on it um so we're certainly happy to have people running linux
[2782.24 --> 2789.68]  vms that run java on them or or whatever but um from like a first class offering standpoint we want
[2789.68 --> 2796.80]  to make sure that people can run uh dotnet apps on linux on azure and so that those two those two kind
[2796.80 --> 2804.24]  of things are really the cross-plat motivation for us on the server side you mentioned uh your corporate
[2804.24 --> 2808.16]  friends so that's a good lead into the question we told you we were going to ask you about
[2808.72 --> 2816.24]  just the change that this imposes to your corporate users who either didn't use open source
[2816.24 --> 2820.96]  purposefully because they wanted to use something that was proprietary and had support or had something
[2820.96 --> 2825.84]  to blame basically if something went wrong you know how does this change things for those corporate
[2825.84 --> 2832.48]  users who may not embrace open source or who purposely didn't embrace open source for whatever the reasons were
[2832.48 --> 2840.00]  first i think there's our first answer which is we're not really changing much about what it is we do
[2841.12 --> 2847.36]  as you can imagine we've always had source control and so really all we're doing is taking our source
[2847.36 --> 2855.84]  control system and hosting it on github and changing the license to something much more liberal so that's the
[2855.84 --> 2862.16]  open source thing but we're not changing anything about our internal processes for how we go about
[2862.16 --> 2869.84]  shipping quality commercial software um there's nothing really about that that's changing uh and
[2869.84 --> 2875.28]  that's definitely a strong message we want to send our corporate customers the other side of it is if
[2875.28 --> 2880.56]  you're a uh you know uncomfortable with open source or just don't care about it you don't really have to
[2880.56 --> 2886.32]  think about it because you don't have to participate in the open source community if you don't want to
[2886.32 --> 2893.92]  do and what we ship at the end of the day is still commercial software most uh for the foreseeable future
[2893.92 --> 2900.24]  most of the code base is still going to have been written by microsoft engineers i mean we certainly want
[2900.24 --> 2907.04]  to get to the the case that a very high percentage of pull requests come from the community but um you're
[2907.04 --> 2914.16]  fundamentally still getting a product that was vetted by microsoft and is supported by microsoft
[2914.16 --> 2920.96]  um support so i think for corporate customers you can still think of this very much as microsoft
[2920.96 --> 2928.72]  commercial software and call it good awesome well as you guys know we usually close out uh with a
[2928.72 --> 2935.68]  question about a programming hero now all three of you feel free to answer um but i know at least one of you
[2935.68 --> 2941.36]  have somebody in mind so uh who is your guys's programming hero yeah so from my point of view
[2941.36 --> 2946.64]  i already mentioned i was a customer for a long time for microsoft and um the reason i really jumped
[2946.64 --> 2952.48]  on dotnet when it came out was the fact that i used delphi quite a bit before and uh i was i found
[2952.48 --> 2957.60]  that delphi was an amazing experience and then the guy who did pretty much delphi went to microsoft and
[2957.60 --> 2962.72]  did c-sharp and that's andrew heilsberg so from that point of view like he's he's somewhat my hero in
[2962.72 --> 2968.16]  the sense that you know it set my career and uh influenced my decision to join microsoft as i said
[2968.16 --> 2973.28]  many people here i didn't join microsoft i joined the team that owns dotnet and uh that happened to
[2973.28 --> 2978.80]  be microsoft but if that would be any other place that's where i would have been awesome anybody else
[2979.68 --> 2987.04]  uh that's good enough for me personally i don't know if faroon has uh an answer bill gates anybody
[2987.04 --> 2989.92]  i'd say modern more than
[2993.52 --> 2998.72]  you heard it here first another question that we tend to ask which i think probably is apropos for
[2998.72 --> 3003.92]  you guys yeah is a call to arms uh for the open source community you're speaking directly to the
[3003.92 --> 3009.04]  open source developers here today what would you say what how can they help you or what would you love
[3009.60 --> 3013.44]  uh for the open source community to do with regard to your new you know dotnet open source stuff
[3013.44 --> 3018.48]  yeah i can i can take that one so the one thing you just mentioned is like the honeymoon phase where
[3018.48 --> 3023.60]  everything is awesome right um we will certainly like my team although like we certainly talked to
[3023.60 --> 3028.08]  a bunch of other teams around here that did open source and you know already way past the honeymoon phase
[3028.48 --> 3032.72]  like you know everything is different every every requirement is different so that's some of the
[3032.72 --> 3036.08]  stuff that we're working on are things like you know how do we do api reviews what do we decide
[3036.08 --> 3040.40]  something is good or not in a transparent fashion and so it is very likely that we will do mistakes
[3040.40 --> 3045.04]  we will do not be as transparent as we promised we would be or we will miscommunicate certain
[3045.04 --> 3049.52]  things or we will just annoy somebody by closing their pull request so if one of those things
[3049.52 --> 3053.92]  happen then we absolutely do want to get feedback from the community and we want to have a conversation
[3053.92 --> 3059.60]  about that and if you go to the forums uh at the net foundation.org there's already a whole bunch of
[3059.60 --> 3063.92]  like people talking about how we do open source what we do well what we don't do well what we could
[3063.92 --> 3070.32]  improve on what we should uh do differently and and that's really for me like the the primary uh
[3070.80 --> 3074.24]  feedback that i am looking for i mean there's always people that want to do pull requests but
[3074.24 --> 3079.20]  it's it's it's from all the people that we reach it's the minority but you know a lot of people
[3079.20 --> 3084.16]  you know benefit from the transparency and so that's the thing i really want to get
[3084.16 --> 3086.16]  i get a handle on whether we do a good job or not
[3088.64 --> 3094.32]  so you mentioned dotnet foundation a couple times in the show uh it makes sense to mention here at the
[3094.32 --> 3100.16]  end that um that we do plan to have you and beth or sorry varoon and beth on upcoming show to talk
[3100.16 --> 3105.60]  about the dotnet foundation and what that is but can you talk a little bit about just a snapshot of
[3105.60 --> 3111.52]  what the dotnet foundation is you mentioned earlier that uh core effects is is uh granted to i think is
[3111.52 --> 3116.88]  the word you used to the dotnet foundation what does that mean what is it uh what is that foundation
[3116.88 --> 3125.20]  yeah that's a great question so basically dotnet foundation you know is an effort uh which is to
[3125.20 --> 3130.88]  aggregate the dotnet community kind of basically together there are a lot of projects that are happening
[3130.88 --> 3136.16]  in process like some of the new ones that are coming on board like dotnet core so the idea is to
[3136.16 --> 3141.60]  kind of have you know common place where we can you know kind of advance the community uh you know at
[3141.60 --> 3147.76]  the same time together it is uh you know community driven effort it is being bootstrapped by microsoft
[3147.76 --> 3156.00]  at this point uh but uh it is going to be a community driven it's its own entity separate from microsoft
[3156.00 --> 3164.08]  its advisory council will also have people from the community so the whole idea behind dotnet foundation is
[3164.08 --> 3170.56]  that like dotnet core has joined the foundation many other projects have you know joined the foundation
[3170.56 --> 3176.40]  and they're actively contributing you know working with each other in the foundation so for all the
[3176.40 --> 3181.44]  new open source developers or the current open source developers dotnet developers are exploring open
[3181.44 --> 3187.44]  source is a great place to kind of bring your projects work together and kind of contribute in existing
[3187.44 --> 3193.20]  projects or you know make your new ones with the community together there are a lot of advantages that
[3193.20 --> 3199.12]  you know come from working together and growing a community so dotnet foundation is that one
[3199.12 --> 3205.04]  one attempt in the upcoming you know podcast that we'll do we'll talk more about you know the exact
[3205.04 --> 3210.16]  specifics but in terms of call to arms i'll recommend you know request everyone to visit the dotnet
[3210.16 --> 3216.88]  foundation dot org website and learn more about it uh there is an email address where you can get in
[3216.88 --> 3222.00]  touch with us uh and you know talk about your existing projects some of the new ideas you're thinking about
[3223.04 --> 3228.56]  and i want to mention too um only because it's timely we don't usually time stamp our shows that much
[3229.12 --> 3234.08]  to a degree but uh you've got as jared mentioned you've got some change happening in several open
[3234.08 --> 3239.28]  source large open source communities where uh you've got corporate partners and sponsors that have
[3239.28 --> 3245.04]  sort of been paving the way and we asked a couple questions around your choices with dotnet core and some
[3245.04 --> 3250.08]  of the future we can expect in open source but i think it's worth mentioning just because of this tail off
[3250.08 --> 3257.84]  the dotnet foundation the fact that at least what i see now is that your approach towards um the foundation
[3257.84 --> 3263.92]  a lot of good open source is built around a foundation versus a corporate entity sort of open governance and
[3263.92 --> 3268.32]  the community is what you mentioned there so i think from what i'm hearing it sounds like you guys are taking
[3268.32 --> 3275.44]  the right steps to go towards linux and mac uh adoption for development platforms uh open sourcing the
[3275.44 --> 3280.72]  the the platform itself or open sourcing you know dotnet core and and the the bcl as you mentioned
[3280.72 --> 3286.80]  before so congrats definitely on that can you maybe mention anything else on that fact that uh you know
[3286.80 --> 3293.12]  it's about community that that there's nothing um that's sort of like microsoft and then versus the
[3293.12 --> 3298.24]  community it's sort of just based on this foundation absolutely and maybe tease the fact we're gonna have
[3298.24 --> 3303.84]  this upcoming show with that you know tease the fact um i completely agree with you know the summary uh
[3303.84 --> 3309.44]  around that it's very important to build open source projects around a community rather than a corporate
[3309.44 --> 3316.48]  entity and that's what foundation aims to be um and i think it'll go a step further the idea is to
[3316.48 --> 3322.32]  you know bring together all the other you know basically cool dotnet projects that are going on and
[3322.32 --> 3327.20]  you know uh you know aggregating them at the same place so that they can connect with each other
[3327.20 --> 3332.24]  and sort of you know cross-pollinate and you know participate in various projects and this kind of should
[3332.24 --> 3340.16]  uh you know accelerate the whole dotnet community as a whole uh you know as imo said you know previously
[3340.16 --> 3346.72]  we are all in into this um and the only way we'll be all in if you know all the community works together
[3346.72 --> 3348.64]  then you know some you know guides from here
[3351.12 --> 3355.60]  well i uh i know that jared and i are definitely excited to have you guys on the show we appreciate uh
[3356.24 --> 3359.36]  you coming on the show beth sorry you couldn't make but we'll definitely catch up with you and
[3359.36 --> 3364.48]  varoon on dotnet foundation dive deeper so for those listening with bait of breath on that one
[3364.48 --> 3368.40]  stay tuned that might happen in the new year i'm not sure if it'll happen before christmas or not
[3368.40 --> 3373.12]  we'll definitely we'll definitely do our best to try but rich emo and varoon thank you so much for
[3373.12 --> 3378.32]  joining us today on this show and thank you to to everyone behind you your team behind you making
[3378.32 --> 3382.32]  your appearance here on this show and talking about dotnet core and what's happening there
[3382.32 --> 3387.84]  possible i know you've got a lot of excited people that are part of your team that are you know
[3388.32 --> 3393.84]  lifting you up and and you know doing lots of great stuff so really appreciate all the effort that that
[3393.84 --> 3401.20]  goes into making your appearance here today um come true for us and we're excited about it so um i do
[3401.20 --> 3405.52]  want to mention before we tail off we got a couple sponsors that make the show possible code ship top
[3405.52 --> 3410.96]  top towel and rack space um some really great uh sponsors we have on the show so we very much
[3410.96 --> 3415.92]  appreciate their support um and and with that unless there's anything else let's uh let's all say goodbye
[3416.48 --> 3421.84]  so goodbye from me goodbye goodbye from rich uh thanks for the opportunity to be on the show
[3421.84 --> 3426.96]  no problem guys thanks for having us yeah thanks guys this is varoon uh it was exciting to talk to
[3426.96 --> 3429.04]  you guys thanks for having us thank you
[3429.04 --> 3438.48]  this is
[3441.12 --> 3454.96]  you
[3459.04 --> 3489.02]  Thank you.