[0.00 --> 14.24] welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is [14.24 --> 21.74] episode 133 today jared and i talked to curtis poe about all things pearl a great conversation [21.74 --> 27.26] you're gonna love it this show is sponsored by code ship rack space and status page.io [27.26 --> 32.58] we'll tell you a bit more about rack space and status page.io later in the show but our friends [32.58 --> 38.46] at code ship are all about continuous integration and delivery as a service you can release more [38.46 --> 44.34] frequently get faster feedback and build the product your users need a simple push to a repo [44.34 --> 49.84] runs your automated tests and configure deployments from the simple deployments are roku to complex [49.84 --> 55.34] deployment pipelines for large infrastructures they can all be set up with ease they even integrate [55.34 --> 60.54] with github or bitbucket you can get started today with their free plan setup takes just three minutes [60.54 --> 67.06] make sure you use the code the changelog podcast to get a 20 discount for three months on any plane you [67.06 --> 73.68] choose head to code ship.io slash the changelog and tell them the changelog sent you and now on to the [73.68 --> 87.38] show everybody we're back and today we're joined by curtis ovid uh ovid poe actually he's got a cool [87.38 --> 92.00] middle name there's not a real middle name maybe at some point curtis you can mention how you got that [92.00 --> 98.58] name it's your internet handle right yes it is i'm here jared's here we're all here with curtis and [98.58 --> 105.34] we're going to talk about pearl so we're excited what's uh what's ovid ovid um a long time ago when [105.34 --> 111.06] i switched from mainframe development and getting into pearl uh i decided to sign up for the website [111.06 --> 117.30] called pearl monks and i happen to tremendously enjoy poetry and when i had to pick a username [117.30 --> 122.90] my two top favorite poets were uh an 18th 19th century scottish poet named john davidson [122.90 --> 129.82] or the roman poet ovid and john davidson sounded like a very stupid username so i picked the username [129.82 --> 136.86] ovid and it just stuck with me for the years i like ovid i wish i had that name and i could be i [136.86 --> 141.28] could be a ba with with ovid oh his poetry is phenomenal highly recommended particularly [141.28 --> 148.16] translations by peter green so uh that's that's obviously language dependent there but um let's [148.16 --> 155.90] give a shout out to to uh robert norris uh he's rob n r-o-b-n on github he actually suggested this [155.90 --> 160.22] show via our ping repo so if you don't know it and you're a listener out there we have a weekly email [160.22 --> 166.80] we ship we have a featured section in there for pings we get on the ping repo drop an issue in there [166.80 --> 172.58] just like robert norris did or rob n on github did uh to suggest us to talk to curtis and talk about [172.58 --> 178.14] pearl and kind of bring we've never actually had a pearl specific show on this uh on the podcast [178.14 --> 183.90] so we're excited about that but uh every week we feature how many repos we feature jared on in [183.90 --> 191.30] weekly uh three three okay so we feature three repos in our weekly email via ping so if you've got [191.30 --> 195.76] some awesome repos out there you need some extra traction on drop them in there they might show up [195.76 --> 199.82] on the podcast they might show up in the email they might show up on the blog you just never know [199.82 --> 204.90] we might even tweet it out so uh with that said let's let's drop into to this conversation with [204.90 --> 211.06] curtis curtis you know jared jared and i you know jared back in college you did some pearl work [211.06 --> 217.32] i own a few pearls um we probably have a pretty diverse listenership to this uh to this podcast [217.32 --> 222.36] that is going to be really adept to programming but maybe not that big of a fan to pearl so what [222.36 --> 229.38] do you say to those people who are not huge fans of pearl um i actually don't say anything to them i'm i [229.38 --> 235.84] understand that not everyone is going to be able to get into every language and pearl during the late [235.84 --> 243.38] 1990s early 2000s was you know rightfully called the duct tape of the internet and as the market has [243.38 --> 250.02] grown and there was such a low barrier to entry we have a lot of competitors come in and for any [250.02 --> 255.68] healthy market of course it's going to shrink our market share and so for a lot of people who didn't [255.68 --> 261.04] care for the pearl syntax um they were happy to turn away from it so it's kind of sad because it's [261.04 --> 265.60] a fabulous language and we shouldn't let the punctuation characters in there turn people away [265.60 --> 271.96] from it but nonetheless you know people have their opinions and just as i understand that i also like [271.96 --> 277.36] other diverse languages i i enjoy python i enjoy ruby i i like prologue i think it's fascinating [277.36 --> 282.76] uh but i understand not everyone likes everything uh lisp i think is phenomenal language but [282.76 --> 287.96] i don't care to program it just because i just find it so frustrating and ugly when i play around [287.96 --> 293.08] with it no no offense to lisp programmers out there so i i don't really stress about it much i understand [293.08 --> 299.26] that it's not everyone's cup of tea so you've been doing pearl a long time you've written a book on [299.26 --> 305.32] pearl you have a consulting company that consults on pearl uh what is it about the language that you fell [305.32 --> 314.08] in love with it was an accident um in i think it was 1999 i was a mainframe programmer and i was [314.08 --> 321.72] working i was mostly doing cobalt development and one of cobalt's worst strengths is worst abilities is [321.72 --> 327.00] dealing with freeform text and that's pretty much all the web is incidentally which is why cobalt even [327.00 --> 331.00] though it's tried to it's never broken up the web and there was i was working on a program to [331.00 --> 338.60] convert nt csv files into the mainframe fixed width format that cobalt is really comfortable with [338.60 --> 343.96] and it was about 150 lines of code and there was a bug and someone didn't understand something called [343.96 --> 349.66] the unstring function something we would call split in many modern languages which splits a string on a [349.66 --> 355.34] character and i fixed it i got it down to i think like 80 lines of code and this unix sysadmin kept [355.34 --> 361.46] telling me you got to check out pearl so i checked it out and i got this 80 line cobalt function down [361.46 --> 367.12] to about 10 lines of pearl and that was with error checking and it was actually fairly readable and i [367.12 --> 371.96] was thinking my goodness what the heck am i doing and when he eventually left to form his own company [371.96 --> 378.32] he said come along i know you can do this and i haven't looked back though the ironic thing is i enjoy [378.32 --> 384.96] a lot of other programming languages i program in c assembler variants of basic java ruby python [384.96 --> 392.18] but i joined pearl right at the time of the dot-com collapse so i stuck around with pearl for so long [392.18 --> 397.98] that after the economy rebounded i found myself in a situation where people would see so much pearl [397.98 --> 402.80] on my cv either they didn't want to offer me a position or they would offer me a junior programmer [402.80 --> 408.54] salary so i wound up sticking with pearl and i've been specializing in it for about 15 years now [408.54 --> 414.90] it seems fitting that the the thing that brought you to pearl it seems to be its its best trait which [414.90 --> 420.56] is and what it was designed for right isn't it all about text extraction and manipulation that's [420.56 --> 427.12] initially what was going on larry wall uh the creator of pearl uh he originally released it in 1987 [427.12 --> 434.70] and he was trying to handle a lot of problems that said and awk and other tools were supposed to be [434.70 --> 440.28] doing but he wanted to do it in one tool to make it very easy i believe for reporting for nasa as i [440.28 --> 447.02] recall and then he eventually released pearl uh open source to the community pearl 1 in 87 and it just [447.02 --> 454.30] took off from there it was just so phenomenally easy to hack and pearl i mean today i often find myself [454.30 --> 458.14] writing quick bash scripts and as soon as they start to get complicated i say okay forget about [458.14 --> 463.86] this and i switch over to pearl because it makes things so easy but at the same time i also specialize [463.86 --> 470.72] in extremely large scale uh websites you know database driven uh that use pearl almost exclusively [470.72 --> 476.26] as the back end so it's everything from the really tall blue really small blue things that we have [476.26 --> 480.96] to the very large scale websites some of the largest e-commerce platforms in the world are driven [480.96 --> 487.76] with pearl and it's just amazing how easy it is to shift back and forth like in java i'm not going [487.76 --> 493.66] to use java to hack out a small uh small utility for gluing things together it just wouldn't make any [493.66 --> 499.30] sense at the same time uh tickle might be great for you know a lot of smaller tools but a lot of people [499.30 --> 505.22] complain it doesn't scale as well though again no offense to the tickle community um so it's it just [505.22 --> 510.92] really feels fills a sweet spot for me of being able to solve virtually all of what i tend to do [510.92 --> 518.58] on a daily basis one of the uh the biggest pearl advocates and fans that i know on the podcast scene [518.58 --> 523.94] is john saracusa who um writes pearl you know professionally to this day and loves the language [523.94 --> 528.74] and one of the things that he says that's interesting and maybe you can tell me if this uh resonates with [528.74 --> 535.82] you is that pearl is really kind of a formalization of the unix way and kind of uh taking those ideas [535.82 --> 541.00] of those small tools and those command line tools and wrapping them in kind of a nicer uh language [541.00 --> 546.62] is that does that resonate with you or yes it does and i'm actually going to go back to cobalt for just [546.62 --> 550.84] a moment if you don't mind there's a reason for that so one of the things fascinating about cobalt [550.84 --> 557.22] what made cobalt so powerful and why it stuck along stuck around for so long is because cobalt's not very [557.22 --> 561.80] good it's not very powerful it's hard to write big systems in cobalt so what you do is you write [561.80 --> 566.26] a small cobalt utility which maybe reads some records from an isam database and stores them [566.26 --> 572.40] in the file but you have jcl job controlling which kind of it's tough to describe it doesn't really [572.40 --> 576.72] have a good analogy today but jcl would have different steps so you call a step which would [576.72 --> 581.62] read that a cobalt program which read the data saved to a file you call another step which would sort [581.62 --> 586.76] that file and then the next step might load another program which would read that file [586.76 --> 592.96] add some more data in save it and then you call another one which would take that saved file [592.96 --> 598.64] pass it on to another system basically it was a unix pipeline and that's part of what made cobalt [598.64 --> 603.88] so incredibly powerful because it wasn't powerful so people built a lot of small decoupled tools [603.88 --> 610.66] and kind of piped them together with jcl so that worked out very well for me when i was transitioning [610.66 --> 616.24] into pearl initially and getting used to the unix model because it was used to the way my mind [616.24 --> 623.36] already worked build small tools pipe them together so that's part of the reason why yes i write a lot [623.36 --> 628.72] of bash i write a lot of small bash utilities to get stuff done but anytime it starts to become [628.72 --> 634.10] painful and bash and anyone who's done enough bash scripting knows what i mean i just switch to pearl [634.10 --> 639.80] and i can do the same thing and it winds up being it's not quite as simple as bash but once you get [639.80 --> 644.06] to the stuff that bash is you know a little bit weaker on or maybe my bash knowledge isn't as good [644.06 --> 649.88] in pearl just makes it so easy to glue all these different tools together to shell out to some of [649.88 --> 655.60] their program fetch its results uh you know fork off multiple processes run a whole bunch of stuff [655.60 --> 661.80] aggregate them together and push it out there it's just it's lovely it's simple and you know from [661.80 --> 667.12] scaling down to that small scale the really tiny things you do up to the big large scale systems [667.12 --> 673.66] it's just it's always amazed me how seamlessly it tends to do that let's talk about some of those [673.66 --> 678.50] the large scale systems you speak of um do you know any off the top of your head that are like [678.50 --> 682.24] you know well-known sites that people may not realize are actually powered by pearl in the back [682.24 --> 686.08] end uh depends upon what other people would think of as a well-known site so i live in europe [686.08 --> 694.18] and one of the well-known sites over here is booking.com uh until the ipo of alibaba they were the third [694.18 --> 699.98] largest e-commerce site in the world after amazon and ebay i mean they're huge they're not as well [699.98 --> 704.78] known in the united states but basically they're an online hotel reservation system and they're massive [704.78 --> 710.44] and yet almost the entire back end is written in pearl and i remember when i was working for them [710.44 --> 716.56] one of my first days there i was walking by this guy and he was hacking on some java and i was surprised [716.56 --> 721.24] and i said what are you doing java programming what do we do with java here and he said well we don't [721.24 --> 725.44] we're taking all of our java programs and we're converting them to pearl just because it's easier [725.44 --> 731.58] to work with which i found rather ironic because sometimes you hear about it going the other way [731.58 --> 735.24] around people are converting pearl some of the language and here they're converting from some of [735.24 --> 739.82] their language into pearl and it's something very common for them but they just found pearl so easy to [739.82 --> 747.18] work with so that's possibly the biggest uh company i know of i work for the bbc also um world's largest [747.18 --> 753.98] broadcaster they had 26 000 uh people when i was there and i was working on the central metadata [753.98 --> 759.50] repository which basically that was information about you know what their schedules were what [759.50 --> 765.34] programs were on telly and i found it rather ironic that me an american who didn't watch tv was telling [765.34 --> 771.10] the british people what tv they were going to watch and all of that was managed through their pip system [771.10 --> 779.46] all written entirely in pearl and just many many companies like that crowd tilt now known as tilt.com [779.46 --> 786.26] which is a popular crowdsourcing system is written entirely in pearl there's actually an mmorpg called [786.26 --> 792.74] lacuna expanse which has been written in pearl lots of large-scale systems some are well-known some are less [792.74 --> 798.98] well so there's a lot of it out there um yes man it's been a long around a long time there's a lot of it [798.98 --> 803.92] out there it has a lot of virtues what is it about it it seems like it's behind it seems like pearl's [803.92 --> 810.24] behind the scenes is it just bad marketing or um is it just communities that you know don't necessarily [810.24 --> 817.08] overlap uh you know we keep our our thumb on open source and you know we have to go out of our way to [817.08 --> 821.52] find pearl open source even though it has been from the very beginning so is it what is it about pearl [821.52 --> 828.82] the community is it just small or is this just not vocal um why it's not better known in the [828.82 --> 836.72] greater open source community at one time it was obviously late 1990s early 2000 as i mentioned [836.72 --> 842.48] pearl was known as the duct tape of the internet because it was virtually everything that you wanted [842.48 --> 846.72] to know on the web you know if it wasn't written directly in pearl pearl was supporting behind the [846.72 --> 851.50] scenes and that's still often surprisingly true today i work for a number of different companies [851.50 --> 856.04] they call me in for all sorts of consulting things and i'm finding pearl all over the place but [856.04 --> 864.56] i think part of what happened was uh back around uh around 2000 2001 there was kind of a malaise in [864.56 --> 870.22] the pearl community um internally they were still trying to work out some differences um some folks [870.22 --> 875.50] were frustrated and there was a famous incident when john orwatt threw a mug at the wall shattered it [875.50 --> 881.18] and said we've got to do something different and then the pearl 6 project was born and there was a [881.18 --> 885.78] misunderstanding from the beginning it was decided that pearl 6 would be the successor to pearl [885.78 --> 891.14] but then it was quickly realized that it couldn't be the successor to pearl and said it would be a [891.14 --> 896.42] sister language just as you have you know c sharp is a sister language to java c plus plus is kind of a [896.42 --> 904.10] sister language to pearl pearl 6 is a sister language to pearl 5 and a lot of people simply see pearl 5 and [904.10 --> 910.10] they don't realize that we have major releases um every year or so um new features powerful features [910.10 --> 916.14] being introduced all the time but people just keep seeing pearl 6 and they're not aware that you know [916.14 --> 921.44] development's still continuing on pearl 6 that pearl 5 is still tremendous progressing at a tremendous [921.44 --> 927.64] pace and internally i actually was doing a lot of work with marketing with pearl and i discovered a [927.64 --> 932.76] tremendous amount of hostility from the pearl community for marketing itself um they were just happy [932.76 --> 939.46] to sit back and get stuff done and that kind of caused a problem so people outside think that [939.46 --> 945.06] pearl 6 is a successor and therefore pearl 5 isn't going anywhere when that's absolutely not true we're [945.06 --> 951.38] on pearl 520 right now pearl 522 um you know it's going to be out fairly soon new features being added [951.38 --> 958.90] all the time um powerful features and it's a great language but we don't do a great job of talking about [958.90 --> 964.46] outside of the community it sounds like some misinformation there sort of stouts you a little bit because [964.46 --> 970.42] you want to you obviously want to progress but you don't want to stop the progression and and be like [970.42 --> 977.10] that pearl 5 is not going anywhere can you talk a bit about beyond that the the health aspects i guess of [977.10 --> 984.34] of of 5 versus 6 or where that's you know what some of the biggest issues are around this 5 versus 6 transition [984.34 --> 990.28] well they're entirely separate languages that needs to be understood first of all as i mentioned [990.28 --> 996.62] they're sister languages like c shark or java c plus plus two so it's a right turn to lisp yes um [996.62 --> 1002.72] there is some work being done to make pearl 5 run inside of pearl 6 but it needs to be understood that [1002.72 --> 1008.02] they're not the same language so because we haven't done a great job of communicating that outside and [1008.02 --> 1014.22] because a lot of people just see that pearl 5 was released um that was actually back in 1994 [1014.22 --> 1021.46] that pearl 5 was released uh that was 20 years ago so people aren't aware that pearl 5 20 is not the [1021.46 --> 1031.16] same language as pearl 5 pearl 5 code will generally run with a lot of warnings in 5 20 but 5 20 and the [1031.16 --> 1035.78] supporting libraries that are available for it such as moose probably the most advanced object-oriented [1035.78 --> 1040.96] system you're going to find in any dynamic language today and possibly more advanced than most static [1040.96 --> 1047.00] languages i would say fan fabulous tool i i miss that when i program in anything else there are such [1047.00 --> 1052.12] wonderful things available for pearl 5 but people outside the community aren't aware of that i would [1052.12 --> 1057.04] like to see the pearl community we've done a great job over the past few years of internally getting our [1057.04 --> 1062.10] act together healing you know pushing things forward after that malaise of people internally not [1062.10 --> 1068.24] understanding the pearl 5 pearl 6 split um but it would be it would be great if we can communicate [1068.24 --> 1074.54] that better outside because if people outside of pearl aren't aware of how powerful it is the powerful [1074.54 --> 1079.62] web frameworks orms and other tools that we have uh you know we drive a lot of what's called the bio [1079.62 --> 1083.58] pearl movement so there's a lot of biological work the research being done with pearl if people [1083.58 --> 1090.06] outside aren't aware of that it's harder for them to make the decision to choose that let's pause the show [1090.06 --> 1094.62] for just a minute give a shout out to a sponsor rack space has been helping us out they love open [1094.62 --> 1100.56] source we love open source uh we've been working with rack space for the past year and uh one of the [1100.56 --> 1104.52] things they keep telling me is how much they love open source and that's why they keep sponsoring the [1104.52 --> 1109.52] show and making sure that you know how much they care about it and that's also why they're giving you [1109.52 --> 1116.66] and everyone else who wants it 50 a month in credit for 12 months that's right 50 a month in credit [1116.66 --> 1121.92] for 12 months to explore their open cloud all you got to do is create a developer plus account to get [1121.92 --> 1128.26] started go to the changelaw.com slash rack space to get started you get dev to dev support so if you [1128.26 --> 1133.88] got complex questions you can talk directly to their developers about their sdks and their apis [1133.88 --> 1140.08] they have various services included like monitoring dns auto scaling orchestration private networking the [1140.08 --> 1146.24] list goes on there is no usage limits you can use your services as much as you want and you're only [1146.24 --> 1152.80] billed for usage beyond 50 a month again they're giving away 50 a month in credit for 12 months [1152.80 --> 1159.20] go to the changelaw.com slash rack space to get started and now back to the show yeah something [1159.20 --> 1162.74] we have in our notes here too it's i'm going to quote this back to you because this is what you [1162.74 --> 1168.12] said you said the pearl community and you've said this too here in the show just not as succinctly as [1168.12 --> 1172.80] this um you said the pearl community has been stunningly bad at marketing in this area meaning [1172.80 --> 1179.82] um you know this divide between pearl 5 and pearl 6 and just in general what pearls is going to do [1179.82 --> 1184.48] today and what it's doing today and jared i think that's something maybe we can even possibly help out [1184.48 --> 1189.96] with like you know curtis you mentioned in the bio information you know different areas where pearl [1189.96 --> 1194.80] is doing some cool stuff i think it's neat how the changelaw can kind of step in and have curtis on the [1194.80 --> 1200.50] show and and talk to you know what probably is we have a large ruby audience a large javascript [1200.50 --> 1206.30] audience um to to some people who don't often look at pearl and say oh that's that's neat we should [1206.30 --> 1213.80] try that out but maybe there's a a space here where there's some interest to peek up how great is the [1213.80 --> 1220.66] divide between the two as far as you know sister languages are they syntactically very similar [1220.66 --> 1227.92] or they have huge differences um was pearl 6 was just a huge undertaking uh is it used in production [1227.92 --> 1232.80] i'm just having tons of questions pour out of me here uh pick ovid pick any of those and just run [1232.80 --> 1239.72] with it because i got so many questions now so if you were to look at maybe an interesting example [1239.72 --> 1245.92] would be there are many people who criticize pearl they're unhappy with it people who don't know pearl [1245.92 --> 1250.52] they look at it and they just see a bunch of sigils of punctuation characters all over [1250.52 --> 1256.26] place many of these people could look at pearl and php and not tell you which is which they're not [1256.26 --> 1260.40] going to say anything about php they might have different complaints about php about you know how [1260.40 --> 1265.84] it's kind of ad hoc you know unclear interfaces but for the uninitiated you won't see a difference [1265.84 --> 1270.80] and yet many people will turn to php over pearl simply because it's just ubiquitous on web servers [1270.80 --> 1277.20] and it's so quick and easy to get things started with php uh pearl is extremely powerful um i think in [1277.20 --> 1282.08] many respects i i would definitely prefer pearl over php not just because i know it so well but [1282.08 --> 1285.02] there's some benefits to some of the things it does i'm not going to get into it i don't want to [1285.02 --> 1290.08] fight between languages php is a great thing because it does other stuff well but if you can't tell the [1290.08 --> 1296.74] difference from the outside then if you're in the inside you can easily tell the difference for pro 5 and [1296.74 --> 1301.50] pro 6 from the outside it's a little bit harder to tell the difference until you start getting into [1301.50 --> 1305.86] some of the more advanced features from the inside you're going to see huge differences so they're [1305.86 --> 1310.92] definitely sister languages so you would look at pearl 5 code and there's a lot of pearl 5 code [1310.92 --> 1316.74] which if it's written carefully will run the same under pearl 6 but the differences quickly diverge in [1316.74 --> 1322.56] the cleaner syntax of pearl 6 something we call invariant sigils which really solves a lot of the [1322.56 --> 1330.02] problems that new developers in pearl 5 had a lot of the things that are add-ons to pearl 5 today [1330.02 --> 1335.74] such as meta programming roles which is probably the greatest advancement object-oriented [1335.74 --> 1341.18] programming since simula 67 almost 50 years ago that's going to be baked into the language so many [1341.18 --> 1348.16] powerful things about it which either don't exist directly in pearl 5 or would be very hard to implement [1348.16 --> 1354.04] tell us about that over this roles thing okay roles this comes from smallpox style traits [1354.04 --> 1360.50] and there was a paper called um a brief introduction to traits i believe is the name and it was an [1360.50 --> 1367.06] introduction to solving a long-standing problem we had with uh object-oriented programming so in 1967 [1367.06 --> 1373.48] simula 67 was released and that had classes inheritance polymorphism uh encapsulation and people generally [1373.48 --> 1381.16] agreed about all of that except for inheritance inheritance was such a problem so many languages allow [1381.16 --> 1388.36] multiple inheritance such as c++ and others but you're often warned not to actually use it other languages such as [1388.36 --> 1395.66] java ruby and others say okay multiple inheritance is such a problem we're not going to allow that at [1395.66 --> 1400.46] all but here's the alternative and they actually encourage the alternative the problem is the [1400.46 --> 1407.32] alternatives such as mixins interfaces yep they have so many built-in problems themselves that they [1407.32 --> 1412.66] didn't actually solve the underlying problem so the traits researchers we call them roles in pearl because [1412.66 --> 1418.32] traits is actually a term for a different thing what the traits researchers did is they were [1418.32 --> 1422.66] funded to investigate the problem come up with solution and what they discovered was classes actually [1422.66 --> 1429.60] have two roles as an agent of responsibility your employee class as your system grows has to take [1429.60 --> 1436.54] on more and more and more behavior but if you're going to inherit from your employee class then it's an [1436.54 --> 1441.54] agent of code reuse and quite often for code reuse we don't want all that behavior we just want little [1441.54 --> 1446.72] specific bits and pieces and in fact there's a language called beta which was going to implement [1446.72 --> 1451.16] multiple inheritance but when they researched it they found out that almost everyone using multiple [1451.16 --> 1455.48] inheritance wasn't for creating more specialized classes it was just to pull out bits and pieces of [1455.48 --> 1461.04] parent classes so the reality is for code reuse you actually want smaller code because you just want to pick [1461.04 --> 1466.06] out the bits and pieces you need but for class responsibility you need all of that so classes actually serve [1466.06 --> 1473.40] to do a role reuse and responsibility and the problem we've had with inheritance and the solutions such as [1473.40 --> 1481.60] interfaces and mixins has been you need to decouple those so roles has decoupled them entirely and so classes are [1481.60 --> 1486.48] agents of responsibility so an employee might have an employee number but does an employee know how to [1486.48 --> 1494.88] serialize itself to xml or json no it doesn't this is a bit of behavior which could be shared amongst classes [1494.88 --> 1501.06] which are not necessarily related by inheritance so ruby mixins which actually came from a variant of [1501.06 --> 1508.90] lisp called flavors ruby mixins actually properly separate behavior from responsibility but unfortunately [1508.90 --> 1515.80] they implemented it via single inheritance so if you mix in a couple of modules into your ruby code and [1515.80 --> 1521.36] then you call ancestors you'll find that it's implemented as a single inheritance tree and then you wind up with [1521.36 --> 1526.90] strange bugs so in if you have duplicate methods in multiply inherited classes the first class you [1526.90 --> 1535.06] inherit from generally wins in ruby the last mixin that you've mixed in wins with roles it's completely [1535.06 --> 1540.10] different it says oh i'm sorry you have duplicate methods they have the same name it's going to fail [1540.10 --> 1544.74] at composition time close enough to the pile time most people won't notice the difference it'll fail [1544.74 --> 1549.58] composition time says i don't know which of these methods you need so you specifically say i want this method [1549.58 --> 1556.76] from this role i want this method from that role and you don't have any of those composition issues [1556.76 --> 1561.90] that you have with multiple inheritance or mixins or some of the other solutions which are out there [1561.90 --> 1567.68] there's a lot more i can say about them but this is one of the finest things about roles it cleanly [1567.68 --> 1573.36] separates class responsibility from code reuse and more and more developers are finding out that you can [1573.36 --> 1579.12] eliminate inheritance entirely and build an entire large-scale object-oriented system just by [1579.12 --> 1584.16] composing different roles and saying i want this behavior that behavior the other behavior and you [1584.16 --> 1588.52] get composition safety because you don't have to worry about method conflicts anymore you don't have [1588.52 --> 1592.56] to worry about accidentally inheriting a method that you didn't realize that you were inheriting [1592.56 --> 1599.64] and it makes things so much simpler it sounds like a pretty big win so is that available in pearl 6 today [1599.64 --> 1604.80] it's available in pearl 6 today it's available in pearl 5 via something called moose roles there's some [1604.80 --> 1610.14] other role modules out there i have one myself which is actually goes back to the original research [1610.14 --> 1617.46] on this there's some guarantees that roles actually provide such as being commutative and associative [1617.46 --> 1622.84] basically mathematical guarantees to get around some of the issues that you had with inheritance and [1622.84 --> 1630.90] mixins and different systems meet those guarantees in different ways but it's available out there but many [1630.90 --> 1635.30] other languages have this i know there's been some experiment with java to do this there's been [1635.30 --> 1642.30] some experiments with python to do this i'm pretty sure it's available in ruby javascript has something [1642.30 --> 1647.36] i believe called juice which i had heard about i don't know how far along that is which also [1647.36 --> 1654.20] makes roles available so there's a wide variety of languages which have adopted it but you know how much [1654.20 --> 1658.12] people are actually using it it's hard to say but the pearl community has bought into it wholesale [1658.12 --> 1663.00] because it tremendously simplifies your code and makes it much easier to understand [1663.00 --> 1670.10] pearl 6 sounds very it sounds very experimental and research oriented is it run by the same group [1670.10 --> 1678.12] of folks that are doing the pearl 5 stuff or are they also diverged um yes and no does that help [1678.12 --> 1685.94] uh nope please explain i'm glad i can clarify that so lary wall the founder of pearl um has shifted [1685.94 --> 1692.38] focus from pearl 5 to pearl 6 and many people now call pearl 6 rakudo just to distinguish it from [1692.38 --> 1700.58] pearl 5 would you say rakuda rakudo r-a-k-u-d-o interesting earlier on i was thinking man maybe it just [1700.58 --> 1706.34] needs a separate word like a separate term altogether yes and i would like to see that term adopted a [1706.34 --> 1712.30] little bit more widely but yeah there's there's a lot of background to that um and pearl 6 the name's [1712.30 --> 1717.20] been around for so long that they've stuck with it right so there's that marketing thing about you [1717.20 --> 1723.42] know don't shift your name because you'll lose people so possibly that's some of it yeah anyways [1723.42 --> 1729.76] you were saying so larry wall uh has shifted his focus from pearl 5 to pearl 6 and has been pushing [1729.76 --> 1736.84] it forward and it's just making tremendous strides damian conway uh he wrote uh pearl best practices and [1736.84 --> 1740.68] quite a number of other excellent books uh involving pearl including object-oriented pearl [1740.68 --> 1747.20] and he has also been doing a huge amount of work with this but many people such as uh patrick michaud [1747.20 --> 1753.74] who was heavily involved with php and others carl msak many others have been heavily involved in [1753.74 --> 1760.26] pushing pearl 6 along jonathan worthington he was a pearl 5 hacker but mostly focuses on pearl 6 now and [1760.26 --> 1764.46] he's been doing a lot of work putting it on the jvm and writing something called more vm [1764.46 --> 1770.42] so there's now originally it was a bunch of pearl 5 hackers now there's a completely separate [1770.42 --> 1775.16] community of people from a variety of different backgrounds many of them academic many of them [1775.16 --> 1780.14] uh basically you know heavily involved in the real world who have been building pearl 6 many of whom [1780.14 --> 1787.00] have no background in pearl 5 anymore so is pearl 6 out there in production or is it still kind of at a [1787.00 --> 1792.30] at an experimental phase i do know there are some folks who have been using it in production [1792.30 --> 1798.76] generally they're using this for smaller tools the sort of small tools that you might uh build shell [1798.76 --> 1803.34] scripts for because that's a little bit safer a little bit lower risk uh large-scale systems [1803.34 --> 1810.64] are generally not being built in pearl 6 yet um there is more work to be done with the final work for [1810.64 --> 1817.88] porting it to more vm and the jvm to finally get a production ready there's more i can say about that [1817.88 --> 1824.90] but i don't know how much i'm actually allowed to say uh simply because um for the long time [1824.90 --> 1829.00] pearl 6 has always been promised by christmas but we just don't say which one [1829.00 --> 1835.00] yeah i'm reading some commentary behind the scenes here just sort of listening to you by the way i love [1835.00 --> 1841.98] that explanation of roles versus inheritance that was um really great but some some thoughts here from [1841.98 --> 1847.90] reddit i'm not sure that's the best place to go for thoughts but um it seems like people have this [1847.90 --> 1852.36] huge question in the brook community about what's happening worth pearl 6 then even specifically [1852.36 --> 1859.02] larry wall you've mentioned a couple times and whether or not it's uh they've questioned um the code [1859.02 --> 1865.50] quality uh or sorry the language designs not so much code quality but uh some other things happening [1865.50 --> 1870.84] there it seems like stepping back to earlier you mentioned this you know maybe it's not so much [1870.84 --> 1875.18] marketing maybe it's communication and that's where i feel like having you on the show today and [1875.18 --> 1880.24] just sort of getting this bird's eye view from uh someone inside the community that's been there for a [1880.24 --> 1886.04] while that's sort of as you said uh by accident to a degree a happy accident that you can sort of [1886.04 --> 1891.86] disseminate this idea of what pearl 6 is going to be and what profile is doing currently because [1891.86 --> 1898.62] uh to rewind just a tiny bit you mentioned you had a role a role um roles and pearl and i believe [1898.62 --> 1906.46] it's role basic is that your is that your version of roles yes there's there's a second traits paper [1906.46 --> 1912.58] um let me see the typed calculus no a traits the formal definition i think is the name which despite [1912.58 --> 1918.56] the name is actually a fairly easy to read paper which unfortunately i consider to be the traits paper [1918.56 --> 1923.70] that no one has ever read but should um and it's absolutely fantastic and it clears up a lot of the [1923.70 --> 1928.60] communication i've actually spoken with a number of traits researchers to clarify some of the issues in there [1928.62 --> 1935.34] um and traits themselves still have some issues um i should call them roles just because that's what [1935.34 --> 1940.40] pearl does they still have some issues because this is programming and in programming we don't have [1940.40 --> 1945.56] perfect systems anywhere but they are the best thing to come along and i have worked with you know so [1945.56 --> 1951.18] many alternatives and they do solve so many problems but yes i wrote role basic in an attempt to [1951.18 --> 1958.44] create a system that goes back to the original definition and truly respects uh some of the rules [1958.44 --> 1964.92] such as uh you know being commutative and associative for example if you have a role which uh does json [1964.92 --> 1973.18] serialization and you have a role which uh does i don't know yaml serialization and if you compose [1973.18 --> 1979.18] both of those roles they should it doesn't matter which order you compose them in unlike you know inheritance [1979.18 --> 1986.90] or mixins it's guaranteed you get the same behavior technically it is possible to violate this contract [1986.90 --> 1995.06] uh with roles or if you have the role which does json serialization consumes another role which does [1995.06 --> 2002.70] marshalling um you might just decide no i'm going to consume my does marshalling role and that is going to [2002.70 --> 2008.30] consume the does json and does yaml role so i'll get all of the serialization methods all at once [2008.30 --> 2014.66] but in theory according to the original traits research it doesn't matter how you consume those [2014.66 --> 2020.60] how you mix and match those in roles it is possible for that contract to be violated depending upon how [2020.60 --> 2027.44] you do it it's unusual for this to happen and you know dedicated programmers who know that you know [2027.44 --> 2031.38] different methods should actually have different method names are really good about avoiding those [2031.38 --> 2037.80] problems but there are still some subtle edge cases but they are in my experience more than an order [2037.80 --> 2044.44] of magnitude less than you have the edge cases with mixins and inheritance so you probably do most of [2044.44 --> 2051.56] your programming in pearl 5 right yes and this role basic is that what you use for your roles or because [2051.56 --> 2055.70] you said this is your version of it there was another one out there you mentioned um but i didn't catch [2055.70 --> 2063.00] that one though i use uh there's also a role tiny i use almost exclusively moose role because moose is [2063.00 --> 2067.64] the most fully fledged object-oriented system out there and i'm not just talking about for pearl [2067.64 --> 2074.54] moose is it brings a lot of the power of you know what we would typically associate with static languages [2074.54 --> 2081.70] to dynamic languages so when i declare an attribute such as social security number i can say a social [2081.70 --> 2086.14] security number is a and then i can define a very rigid type constraint for what that social security [2086.14 --> 2090.42] number is and rather than you know embedding my code with a whole bunch of type checks everywhere [2090.42 --> 2093.96] you know is a social security number really fitting the format of social security number [2093.96 --> 2099.68] are the first three digits allowed first three digits or not i can simply declare a social security [2099.68 --> 2103.62] type have that provide the validation and anything which consumes a social security number [2103.62 --> 2109.82] it has to match that type or it's going to fail and this is something you often don't get [2109.82 --> 2115.68] with many dynamic languages we tend to play fast and loose with our data but there's so many powerful [2115.68 --> 2121.52] things you can do such as lazy evaluation of attributes so you don't create the connection [2121.52 --> 2126.90] to the database unless you actually ask for the connection to the database or you know just being [2126.90 --> 2130.82] able to list all of your attributes but on top of that you have meta programming so i use meta [2130.82 --> 2136.84] programming quite heavily i built something called test class moose which is basically a an x-unit framework [2136.84 --> 2143.48] for large scale enterprise class databases if you will and it's being used more and more and what [2143.48 --> 2150.56] what i've done with the metadata system within moose is i'm able to inspect the methods to figure out [2150.56 --> 2155.28] what test methods are available i'm able to find out what attributes are available i'm able to compose [2155.28 --> 2160.66] roles into things so i can have roles defining fixtures so i can easily load fixtures on demand [2160.66 --> 2167.70] and if you've never played with meta programming before it is hard to appreciate the power of it [2167.70 --> 2173.06] and once you play with meta programming you never want to go back because it makes so many of your [2173.06 --> 2181.14] problems so much simpler the cost is the software you build is simpler it is easier to write it is [2181.14 --> 2185.52] faster right it's a little bit harder for some other people to understand it because most people [2185.52 --> 2192.26] don't understand the concept of meta programming at first it sounds like you uh also i mean you [2192.26 --> 2196.48] mentioned testing here a few times in that conversation obviously when you're meta programming [2196.48 --> 2201.78] and when you have dynamic languages um testing becomes a huge part of that you know assurance that [2201.78 --> 2206.38] things are still working the way that you wanted them to um you said you wrote a test harness that [2206.38 --> 2211.68] ships with the language um maybe tell us about the testing story in the pearl community whether it's [2211.68 --> 2216.52] tdd style or uh kind of what the just what the community looks like and as far as testing code [2216.52 --> 2222.94] goes pearl has possibly i mean ruby talks about themselves just being test infected and they have [2222.94 --> 2230.86] nothing on pearl if so cpan the um this is the central archive of pearl code that most developers tend [2230.86 --> 2237.94] to push their code towards and if i push my code up to the cpan it's immediately pushed out to the cpan [2237.94 --> 2243.94] testers network where people are running the tests for my code on all sorts of different flavors of [2243.94 --> 2250.18] linux all sorts of different flavors of windows all sorts of different macs uh on aix on solaris you [2250.18 --> 2254.00] name it my code is being tested there with tons of different operating systems tons of different [2254.00 --> 2258.12] versions of pearl and i find out very quickly which operating systems which versions of pearl [2258.12 --> 2265.24] my tests are failing on and this is for free and this is the sort of thing that enterprise [2265.24 --> 2272.10] customers can pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for right and there are millions and millions [2272.10 --> 2278.08] literally of test reports out there on cpan testers and when you go out there and you pull up [2278.08 --> 2284.24] one of the versions of your module and you know my version of this module you know 1.14 happens to fail [2284.24 --> 2291.72] on solaris with pearl 516 and then you can go and if you've written your tests well for printing out [2291.72 --> 2296.36] good explanations of what's going on with your test you can say oh now i understand what's failing [2296.36 --> 2300.88] and even if you don't know solaris you can contact a solaris user or perhaps a person who originally [2300.88 --> 2306.52] ran it on their what we call smoke machines they're smokers and say my module failed on your machine with [2306.52 --> 2311.44] this version of pearl can you help me with this and you get this powerful free feedback that is [2311.44 --> 2318.12] virtually impossible to get otherwise and anytime i upload a new module to the cpan i get hundreds and [2318.12 --> 2325.76] hundreds of test reports coming back very quickly and it's just phenomenal and i don't see that other [2325.76 --> 2331.52] places if i want to install a module on my local machine i can have the option to run the tests or [2331.52 --> 2337.44] not so if i want to run the tests i can see what's going on i can give feedback to the module authors it's [2337.44 --> 2343.20] very easy and it's gotten to the point it's very very much frowned upon for popular modules to be [2343.20 --> 2349.20] uploaded to cpan without tests and the test coverage is just phenomenal in many of these [2349.20 --> 2354.60] modules and it really it's nice for me as a developer when i'm recommending you know use this [2354.60 --> 2359.34] new module in your code base because it's going to save you a lot of time and trouble and they say [2359.34 --> 2363.98] well is it robust and i can say look at this test suite look at all these test results and all these [2363.98 --> 2368.76] different operating systems all these different versions of pearl look at all those green bars there [2368.76 --> 2374.82] and it's just fantastic so i love it makes me very happy i did not know that about cpan that [2374.82 --> 2381.86] tester what do you call it the test smokers uh the smokers um it's oh my goodness i'm trying to [2381.86 --> 2388.72] remember the name um it's something that i've taken for granted for so long to be quite honest uh the [2388.72 --> 2395.82] cpan reporters um i would have to go and look up the url offhand but it's you know you can go out [2395.82 --> 2399.72] there very quickly and see all of the test reports which are available for all of your modules but [2399.72 --> 2404.86] this is free and anything anyone uploads is automatically run through the system by just [2404.86 --> 2409.84] dedicated volunteers so it's not something you have to sign up for it's not something you have [2409.84 --> 2415.58] to ask for it just automatically happens for you that's awesome you know when i was back in college [2415.58 --> 2421.12] and i was doing some pearl um i liked the language i still like it to this day i think you know i saw the [2421.12 --> 2426.38] the value especially in the regular expression stuff back then that just was so easy comparative [2426.38 --> 2432.48] to what i had done previously um and cpan was always boasted as you know this great thing now as [2432.48 --> 2439.40] a fledgling young programmer i'm probably like 2001 2002 man i just could not figure cpan out um i [2439.40 --> 2443.54] couldn't even get past like the configure step to get that thing out there i'm just trying to get [2443.54 --> 2449.44] somebody else's code on my system um and i'm sure it's an isolated incident but maybe give us [2449.44 --> 2455.62] um some background on cpan i know that it's it's much touted as as a great system it sounds like [2455.62 --> 2461.30] that the automated testing thing is really cool tell us more about it so the cpan is a comprehensive [2461.30 --> 2467.52] pearl archive network and there's a module cpan.pm which comes shipped core with pearl so when you [2467.52 --> 2474.36] first download pearl you can run the cpan command cpan all over case and what you experienced was a [2474.36 --> 2479.74] a long-standing problem today what it does is it says oh this is the first time you're running cpan [2479.74 --> 2484.36] would you like me to configure as much as i can automatically you hit yes and it magically works [2484.36 --> 2493.08] that sounds great so that's not what i was having i know yeah basically they they took the trouble to [2493.08 --> 2498.12] make the pain go away so i often install new versions of pearl i'm playing around with different things [2498.12 --> 2503.94] i set up cpan for the first time and if i select yes um occasionally it might pick a mirror too far [2503.94 --> 2511.74] away from me but aside from that it works beautifully and it's not a problem you also have cpan minus [2511.74 --> 2520.50] so app cpan so cpan min dot us um that's the site which has a very simple that has a very simple [2520.50 --> 2525.70] command that you can run which will allow you to install cpan minus which is kind of like cpan [2525.70 --> 2530.78] except it does even less so cpan when it downloads your code it will download all the dependencies run [2530.78 --> 2535.16] all the tests and then you have some dependency failing on a test which is completely unrelated to [2535.16 --> 2541.36] what you're doing or cpan minus will just take all the pain away and just build your code and install [2541.36 --> 2546.52] it for you very quickly and it's very powerful and most of the time it just works wonderfully so we're [2546.52 --> 2551.68] actually winding up with multiple different solutions depending upon what your particular needs are how [2551.68 --> 2555.98] thorough do you want your test coverage to be are you not worried about that do you want to just [2555.98 --> 2561.22] install a simple module quickly most of it's just painless and people don't have to worry about it [2561.22 --> 2566.24] anymore so what you discovered was a long-standing complaint but it pretty much doesn't exist today [2566.24 --> 2573.14] cool cool i just loaded up cpan minus and it redirected me to a github page which makes me which [2573.14 --> 2578.98] makes me wonder like where are y'all at with git and github and having code be publicly available on those [2578.98 --> 2585.60] on on github at least yeah embarrassingly enough i just had the same thing yeah is that so is that [2585.60 --> 2592.36] not supposed to happen it wasn't happening a few days ago okay so that makes for a very awkward turn [2592.36 --> 2601.04] for this conversation or a or a perfectly intended turn yeah in our eyes so many pearl developers are [2601.04 --> 2607.24] heavily uh involved in using git so my company actually offers git training also just because it's [2607.24 --> 2612.38] incredibly popular and it was interesting that you know i would have svn available for the long time [2612.38 --> 2617.50] for the longest time and you know oh you can submit patches to my modules you know via svn or you know [2617.50 --> 2623.54] just using the diff patch command whatever um and i could count on the fingers of one hand the number of [2623.54 --> 2629.92] patches i would get per year since i switched to doing most of my development and sharing my code on github [2629.92 --> 2636.02] i'm getting patches all the time and it's just phenomenal and because the pearl community is very keen [2636.02 --> 2643.84] about testing and documentation i'm usually getting patches with full documentation full tests or if [2643.84 --> 2647.68] they don't have them people will say you know this is just exploratory to solve this little itch that i [2647.68 --> 2652.70] have what do you think and it's a way of collaboration that you know just didn't exist before and i'm very [2652.70 --> 2657.68] very pleased about that most of the pearl communities bought into it cool and are those integrated git and [2657.68 --> 2664.90] c or github and cpan as far as publishing goes you have you have what are called metafiles available [2664.90 --> 2673.52] in your distributions which can say um my bug queue is actually out on github the actual base repository [2673.52 --> 2679.26] is on github so if you go out to cpan and someone set up their metafiles correctly you can just click [2679.26 --> 2684.20] directly on the source repository and it'll take you over to you know github or click on the bug tracker [2684.20 --> 2689.38] instead of the built-in rt trackers that cpan uses it can take you over to the github track tracker [2689.38 --> 2695.56] or any other site you want it's not just tied into github specifically it's a generic system saying [2695.56 --> 2702.08] this is where my you know source repository actually is this is where my bug tracker actually is and it [2702.08 --> 2707.48] just handles it for you but it's very agnostic about the cpan isn't tied into github but it's [2707.48 --> 2713.34] probably the most popular alternative today we're gonna pause the show for just a minute give a shout out [2713.34 --> 2719.88] to a sponsor status page dot io is a new sponsor for us we're glad to have them it's all about [2719.88 --> 2726.18] transparency during downtime and the best way i know to do that is to use status page dot io to create a [2726.18 --> 2732.14] status page for your app or your website so you can have an always up and always on way to communicate [2732.14 --> 2737.64] to your customers when you're in a bad situation your customers can subscribe to updates you can [2737.64 --> 2742.84] broadcast upcoming maintenance windows you can post updates minute by minute hour by hour keeping [2742.84 --> 2748.58] everyone informed everyone on the know integration with services like new relic and pingdom allow you [2748.58 --> 2753.04] to show off graphs to your customers that they care about you can even embed your system status [2753.04 --> 2759.36] within your actual app head to status page dot io to get started it's free to set up launch it when [2759.36 --> 2766.56] you're ready and tell them the changelog sent you and now back to the show so as the cpan sort of act as a [2766.56 --> 2772.76] registry in that case then more like here's where pro modules go and you can find and install new [2772.76 --> 2778.52] pro modules via cpan is that how that works yes that is far and away the most popular option there's [2778.52 --> 2787.02] also metacpan.org um with the search right yes and some people like that some people don't uh myself uh i [2787.02 --> 2792.40] i think it's interesting but i'm so old school and i'm so used to search cpan.org that i don't even [2792.40 --> 2797.84] remember that there's a www cpan.org i just hit search cpan.org i look for the things that i want [2797.84 --> 2803.86] i read about them i read the test results i read the code yeah okay i'll use this so in your community [2803.86 --> 2809.40] or in your sorry in your opinion what is the the state of the community the pro community in terms of [2809.40 --> 2815.32] transitioning the open source work they do have out there to github because you said that [2815.32 --> 2820.12] earlier you do some get training and stuff like that what is the state of the pro community as it [2820.12 --> 2826.82] relates to github and open source on github and just general availability of of i think what we see [2826.82 --> 2832.46] over the last three or four years just more and more and more developers moving to github is just a [2832.46 --> 2838.62] a better way to socially code together and pearl's been open source since the beginning so it just seems [2838.62 --> 2844.12] like a natural fit for them y'all to eventually move there but what's the state the way it's working right [2844.12 --> 2851.58] now is most of the tool chain available for pearl is centered around cpan so cpan is a central [2851.58 --> 2859.44] repository for the canonical versions of modules and people use github for collaboration i have a [2859.44 --> 2864.28] number of modules which are available out on github for doing various things that i don't have the [2864.28 --> 2868.16] latest versions of those modules out on cpan because i want what's on cpan to be a little bit [2868.16 --> 2873.92] more stable and if i move it from github to the cpan and i'm not entirely comfortable with it i might [2873.92 --> 2879.10] mark it as a developer release so that it won't be installed by default but we use github for [2879.10 --> 2885.10] collaboration for sharing for talking about new ideas we use cpan as the central repository so that [2885.10 --> 2890.22] when you want to install code or you want to manage your cpan code via pinto or something like that [2890.22 --> 2896.68] that you know the one spot to go for that that makes a lot of sense one last question then we'll get [2896.68 --> 2901.60] to the close here so it seems like each language especially talking about web uh web programming [2901.60 --> 2907.14] languages they all kind of have their killer app you know uh ruby has rails you know you might say [2907.14 --> 2914.06] php has wordpress uh javascript has node and you know python has django and and there's alternatives [2914.06 --> 2919.60] of course is there like a go-to uh web tool or framework in the pearl community that everybody's [2919.60 --> 2925.92] using or is it more kind of diverse it's definitely more kind of diverse there are a number of really [2925.92 --> 2934.20] phenomenal tools out there so catalyst is has for the longest time been the default web tool and many [2934.20 --> 2939.62] of the clients that i go into today are using catalyst and catalyst is a wonderful framework [2939.62 --> 2944.64] mostly based around the concept of mvc but one of the things that differs from some of the [2944.64 --> 2950.72] competitors and other languages if you will is that it's agnostic about the mv and c components however [2950.72 --> 2957.70] you want to plug those in um do you want to use dbx class for your you know the back end with for the [2957.70 --> 2962.42] orm which is going to be backing up whatever your model is eventually going to be do you want to use [2962.42 --> 2966.86] rose db do you want to use something different what do you want to have in your view layer to present [2966.86 --> 2970.96] things to people you know from the html you know do you want to use template toolkit do you want to use [2970.96 --> 2977.30] template xslate do you want to use you know mason what do you want to do is however you want to set it up [2977.30 --> 2982.94] so there's a bit more of a learning curve for that but it means you can customize for exactly what you [2982.94 --> 2988.94] need there's other things which are extremely popular such as dancer 2 and mojolicious which [2988.94 --> 2993.32] have different philosophies which are very easy to use they're lighter weight than catalyst they're [2993.32 --> 2998.60] not as fully featured as catalyst but they are so easy to use and so powerful that you know i'm seeing [2998.60 --> 3005.06] more and more sites switch over to them and they're really nice when you talk about the orm layer dbx class [3005.06 --> 3011.16] is just an absolutely phenomenal orm rose db is also excellent it's not as popular it's just [3011.16 --> 3018.42] blazingly fast this is if you like orms i know i know that not everyone does we have an embarrassing [3018.42 --> 3024.98] richness of powerful tools because the community pro community has been around so much longer than [3024.98 --> 3030.84] many of the other communities that we have a number of very mature products out there but [3030.84 --> 3036.90] unfortunately that means if someone says what should i use for you know writing this brilliant [3036.90 --> 3041.52] new website that i have you said well you've got this you've got this you've got this and all of them [3041.52 --> 3048.06] are excellent all of them have pros and cons and a lot of people i just want that one thing and they [3048.06 --> 3052.12] just want to be told what to do and that's a little bit harder to do with pearl because we have [3052.12 --> 3059.42] you know an embarrassment of riches if you will excellent excellent so just to preempt the haters [3059.42 --> 3065.62] uh yes i realize that no i realize that node is more than just a web thing i just want to get that [3065.62 --> 3071.26] out there in case um people thought that that was what i was trying to say um very cool man it sounds [3071.26 --> 3077.64] like you guys got a lot going on um every time i talk with somebody on the show i end up being like [3077.64 --> 3082.96] i gotta go look into what is going on in this community so uh ovid you did a great job representing [3082.96 --> 3088.16] pearl uh yeah do you you said you do consulting you have a book anything you want to uh plug or [3088.16 --> 3093.86] promote and while you're here i would say that our company's website is allaroundtheworld.fr [3093.86 --> 3100.58] that's because we're based in france we do pearl consulting we really specialize in going into [3100.58 --> 3105.22] companies which have older legacy systems and rebuilding them testing them making the modern [3105.22 --> 3110.66] systems easier to work on we offer database training get training um i also teach companies [3110.66 --> 3116.78] how do you how to use agile appropriately or if they should use agile because that's not always true [3116.78 --> 3125.84] and so it's it's kind of oh goodness i can we could spend easily a couple of hours with me going [3125.84 --> 3132.10] off about why agile is wonderful and why it is not wonderful and i would follow you both ways [3132.10 --> 3140.48] it's yeah because i have some opinions there as well i'm a strong strong agile fan but it's not [3140.48 --> 3146.46] always the right choice that's right so we we do a lot of things but mostly it's database get training [3146.46 --> 3153.18] uh teaching testing and particularly myself and our other associates going in and fixing people's [3153.18 --> 3159.68] legacy data uh pearl systems and making them easier to use it's amazing how much work there is there [3159.68 --> 3164.08] any any particular repos you want to mention that you've got on github or anywhere else that uh [3164.08 --> 3170.28] that you can use some extra firepower behind like uh some attention to oh my favorite one is [3170.28 --> 3175.50] unfortunately a private repo it's uh some a project code named veer which no one's seen but i've [3175.50 --> 3180.12] talked about it a lot of my blogs i'm building a text-based mmorpg in pearl [3180.12 --> 3188.76] when's that going to get out there i'm hoping to have christmas by christmas i'm hoping to have an [3188.76 --> 3194.30] elf out by the end of next year we actually might have a new developer being pulled up in on it this [3194.30 --> 3199.74] year uh there's actually been mmorpgs written in pearl before but this one um i found an interesting [3199.74 --> 3205.48] niche in the market which is completely uncovered and which was a lot of fun so i'm just building a [3205.48 --> 3210.92] science fiction world a true rpg not one of these things you just click around on like bulletin boards [3210.92 --> 3216.76] on the web but it's text-based so i'm having a lot of fun with that otherwise i would tell people [3216.76 --> 3222.96] check out my test class moose repository if you're interested in pearl and you need to build a large [3222.96 --> 3230.04] scale test suite it's much much better than many of the other alternatives out there for the same [3230.04 --> 3234.14] reason you wouldn't build a huge website today without choosing an appropriate framework you don't want [3234.14 --> 3240.30] to build a huge test suite without choosing an appropriate framework we can't uh we can't [3240.30 --> 3245.22] obviously close this show unless we ask the the notorious question which is who is your programming [3245.22 --> 3249.36] hero and i figure with uh some of the names you've mentioned today you probably either will repeat [3249.36 --> 3255.94] them or you'll have new heroes to mention so um let us know who your hero is oh you're not going to [3255.94 --> 3265.22] believe me my programming heroes are my cobalt professors in college um the reason for that is [3265.22 --> 3271.12] so my java instructors i remember our very first java instructor she was fresh out of uni and she had [3271.12 --> 3276.94] trouble explaining the difference between a class and an instance and it didn't appear that she was a bad [3276.94 --> 3282.96] teacher she just seemed a little confused on the concept my second java instructor um i accidentally [3282.96 --> 3287.92] turned in some code with some j unit tests and he was confused and kicked it back and said he didn't [3287.92 --> 3294.18] understand what that was um i've had this happen with um professors in a number of different programming [3294.18 --> 3299.32] languages who's who just didn't have real world experience but the cobalt teachers they had actually [3299.32 --> 3306.64] come back in from the field many many years of experience and were able to give a class full of students who [3306.64 --> 3314.42] were often you know not very interested or you know not very responsive excellent real world descriptions [3314.42 --> 3321.10] of what you need and i still remember the time i was trying to sign up for a c class at a uni and they [3321.10 --> 3326.40] told me we don't offer c anymore because the future is object-oriented and c is obsolete [3326.40 --> 3336.78] yes completely ivory tower but the cobalt developers they the programmers the professors they understood [3336.78 --> 3342.36] that okay it's not the most popular thing out there but they had tons of real world experience which they [3342.36 --> 3347.26] were able to communicate in a way that my other professors didn't and they were some of the best [3347.26 --> 3351.86] examples i had of what we actually need out there for teaching the next generation of students [3351.86 --> 3358.70] the combination between deep theory that is really useful at surprising times but the real world [3358.70 --> 3366.24] pragmatism of i gotta get stuff done so they are my programming heroes even though no one knows their [3366.24 --> 3373.46] name no one cares about them they're the ones that we need to see a lot more of you know often uh you [3373.46 --> 3378.88] know teachers end up being heroes anyways that's just a good thing at least you know on this show reach [3378.88 --> 3383.86] back out to them i wonder if uh if they happen to know that uh they're your heroes money chance [3383.86 --> 3390.64] but i should find out and contact them what'd you say i said i should find out and contact them at some [3390.64 --> 3395.66] point yeah i mean because you know anytime you've touched somebody's life it's it's nice to know because [3395.66 --> 3400.54] it's it's sort of like this uh pay it forward you know for teachers they don't always see the fruits of their [3400.54 --> 3405.04] labor uh they don't have the luxury of instant gratification you know that's sort of like [3405.04 --> 3409.90] plant a seed and it grows over years and years and years and often oftentimes that person goes on [3409.90 --> 3414.64] to do great things and i'll be nuts to that person but i know that i've got a couple heroes who are [3414.64 --> 3420.68] like that so just saying but okay curtis it's uh it's definitely been a pleasure having you on the [3420.68 --> 3425.30] show i think that uh you've given jared and i uh some food for thought so to speak on on the pro [3425.30 --> 3430.28] community and the pro ecosystem and how we can sort of support that in in our own way here at the [3430.28 --> 3436.36] changelog to just help with this communication and marketing divide of pearl five versus six and [3436.36 --> 3441.48] just in general what's happening it seems like you got a lot of fun great things happening that uh [3441.48 --> 3447.00] that just need a maybe a clear i don't even i don't even know how to say it but i'm sure there's [3447.00 --> 3450.36] some way we can help so we'll we'll do whatever we can to to help you and help the pro community [3450.36 --> 3454.76] um we do want to mention a couple sponsors to help make this show possible before we close out [3454.76 --> 3461.96] code ship rack space and status page dot io all great sponsors of the show we uh we couldn't do [3461.96 --> 3467.86] without their help so uh curtis jared let's uh let's say goodbye adam jared thank you very much [3467.86 --> 3468.38] i had a blast [3484.76 --> 3507.08] all right guess no bye from jared i forgot to say goodbye [3507.08 --> 3515.42] i had to say goodbye real quick goodbye just don't worry about oh i had my thing you've got [3515.42 --> 3521.76] to include that in the clip i was muted the podcast i was i was muted i said goodbye to myself [3521.76 --> 3526.76] on mute that's funny i'm like i felt like i said goodbye