[0.00 --> 14.78]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
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[28.24 --> 34.18]  about all things jekyll and how he got started in open source today's show is sponsored by rackspace
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[87.36 --> 94.94]  we're joined today by parker moore he's uh parker you're a developer you're doing all sorts of cool
[94.94 --> 99.78]  stuff you're you're you're young you're still going to school you're interning at github you have a
[99.78 --> 105.22]  pretty fantastic story so um you know i wanted to have you on the show because i've been a fan of what
[105.22 --> 108.88]  you've been doing with jekyll so i wanted to kind of hear from the horse's mouth how to speak
[108.88 --> 114.10]  about who this man is and what y'all are what you're doing um in open source and what you're
[114.10 --> 119.56]  doing for uh for coding and stuff like that so let's uh let's kick off the show by i guess the
[119.56 --> 124.82]  easiest way possible maybe to give the listeners a peek into who you are so when you introduce yourself
[124.82 --> 129.90]  to a crowd of people how do you do it um well i guess i've never had to introduce myself to a crowd
[129.90 --> 137.04]  of people of a technology or high technology background um but i'll give it a shot um as you said
[137.04 --> 144.90]  i'm parker um i'm a student at cornell university um about to graduate um in august with a degree in
[144.90 --> 149.60]  information science um i've been programming for a really long time since maybe seventh grade
[149.60 --> 159.30]  and have loved it i found ruby um in maybe 2011 and have loved it ever since it's a fantastic language
[159.30 --> 168.18]  i have a lot of fun um and in 2012 i found myself um conversing with tom preston warner
[168.18 --> 176.22]  and um i asked to take over the project jekyll and the rest is sort of history yeah that's that is a
[176.22 --> 181.22]  that's i want to tell that history as best we can so let's let's maybe rewind a little further back
[181.22 --> 186.68]  in the day then so you said you've been programming for a while um how early seventh grade is when i started
[186.68 --> 191.28]  um my math teacher in seventh grade uh with whom i spent a lot of time because that was the year
[191.28 --> 196.02]  that i wanted to get ahead in math and so i was taking two math courses simultaneously um i forget
[196.02 --> 201.52]  what they were but like geometry probably you know uh probability that sort of thing um and then also
[201.52 --> 207.86]  moving up to sort of more of the pre-calculus stuff so um i was spending a lot of time with this
[207.86 --> 215.76]  this math teacher um and he was a huge math geek and he had a bunch of apple 2e's in his in his
[215.76 --> 222.62]  room as well as a couple old macintoshes um and this was right before the mac g5 came out so this
[222.62 --> 231.42]  is you know when is this actually 2003 4 i'm guessing based on math around 2000 well i'm 21 now
[231.42 --> 235.64]  and i'm just graduating from college and i remember that september 11th attacks were in fourth grade
[235.64 --> 242.52]  so it was three years after that okay so i think it was um i think it was closer to 2004
[242.52 --> 249.60]  um but anyway year is not not that important um so i learned how to program in basic um with a group
[249.60 --> 254.36]  of friends we would take our lunch period and we would go to go to this teacher's room mr martin
[254.36 --> 261.04]  his room and we would all leap onto a apple to eat and we would program for the entire period if we
[261.04 --> 266.60]  weren't watching monty python or whatever um so we had a grand old time and i learned a lot of the
[266.60 --> 273.36]  basics of of procedural programming um in basic if you don't know you have to give every line that
[273.36 --> 278.62]  you you type of code has its own line number so you type one and that's your first line and then you
[278.62 --> 284.86]  you know print high or something and then 10 uh or two you could say two if you wanted to um
[284.86 --> 292.12]  you know get variable or something so um i learned a lot about how to think like a computer and sort of
[292.12 --> 298.88]  the basis of my computer computer science knowledge comes from that that time in lunch in lunch period
[298.88 --> 305.76]  um and i didn't actually start any formal computer science um lessons or any formal computer science
[305.76 --> 314.66]  until 10th grade when i took um cs1 and 2 at my high school um and we learned java with carol the robot
[314.66 --> 324.16]  um whom we would program to to go around a grid and collect like buttons or something um so it it was
[324.16 --> 329.80]  an amazing experience um and i ended up doing um advanced placement computer science my senior year
[329.80 --> 336.02]  in high school um and i sort of diverged a little bit in college i went to mcgill university for my first
[336.02 --> 343.32]  year and studied linguistics and philosophy um with an with an a hint of political science um and then
[343.32 --> 349.66]  transferred to cornell and decided you know computers are amazing let's study them let's study the
[349.66 --> 355.26]  sociological the psychological the economic impact of of information and the information technologies
[355.26 --> 359.88]  that we have available to us and so that's sort of what i've been doing since i transferred to cornell
[359.88 --> 365.50]  wow that's uh that's quite a history man i mean i'm not really even sure what to dive deeper into except
[365.50 --> 373.18]  for you know i guess uh javas is one maybe sort of somewhat fun thing to begin learning with
[373.18 --> 380.08]  but maybe also just as hard and not so encouraging um but then at the same time you're kind of where
[380.08 --> 385.00]  you're at now um you know you're contributing heavily to open source you look at your your
[385.00 --> 389.84]  punch card on your github profile and it's just like it's straight up green so um i don't even know
[389.84 --> 395.48]  how you actually do it and do school and do a lot of the stuff you do you say in your free time you
[395.48 --> 400.34]  help maintain jaco i'm not sure if your free time is all the time or what but maybe we can clear that up so
[400.34 --> 408.32]  well so i will say um i can give github a little bit of credit um they they will mark a box green
[408.32 --> 414.34]  even if you only have one commit or you open one issue so you know my minimum on in terms of the
[414.34 --> 420.98]  github uh punch card is is one thing a day one contribution a day so that's not you know not too
[420.98 --> 427.50]  substantial um but it you know certainly that punch card keeps me active and keeps me busy and keeps me
[427.50 --> 433.48]  me motivated which is an interesting um element of that particular feature um but i got into open
[433.48 --> 444.00]  source in 2010 um do you remember the iphone tracker um which tracker um i forgot exactly what it what it
[444.00 --> 450.90]  did specifically i it it would track you track where you were on an app that you could install on your
[450.90 --> 458.02]  phone it would track where you were um and send that information to a server and there was some
[458.02 --> 464.28]  element of of subversion within this like there was some subversive element to this app such that you
[464.28 --> 468.98]  didn't necessarily know that you were being tracked maybe it was based on wi-fi address or something like
[468.98 --> 475.42]  that so the um it was in a news story and maybe in the new york times that i was reading often
[475.42 --> 481.76]  and so i found github because the source code for this particular app was on github and my very first
[481.76 --> 487.82]  pull request was a pull request to this objective c app i'd never touched objective c in my whole life
[487.82 --> 494.82]  um but there was a problem with um with closing i forget exactly what it was but with with closing
[494.82 --> 500.12]  down a piece of the app um when the app was was when the user went back to the home screen
[500.12 --> 504.80]  or switched to a different app um so that was my very first pull request in objective c
[504.80 --> 513.48]  um and that was i guess the my very first pull request being in the fall of 2010 right after i
[513.48 --> 519.56]  had started at mcgill and i was just getting into a friend of mine um well an acquaintance rather um
[519.56 --> 526.60]  from rochester where i'm from um it works at apple now and was a huge buff he used he was part of the
[526.60 --> 532.50]  the team that made cloud the cloud app okay um nick paulson he's sort of been one of my like programming
[532.50 --> 540.56]  heroes um over the last several years in that he is just like a prodigy um exceptional at what he does
[540.56 --> 546.92]  um so i sort of got to know him a little bit through a mutual friend and got to know his work
[546.92 --> 553.58]  and was interested in mac and iphone programming thought you know this will be great but then was
[553.58 --> 558.28]  a little bit worried because it was so tied to to particular products it wasn't something that i could
[558.28 --> 563.60]  run anywhere it was if the iphone doesn't exist then my job doesn't exist so i sort of moved away
[563.60 --> 570.82]  from that platform centric right all right um but yeah so i i found open source to this iphone tracker
[570.82 --> 576.92]  project and in a way got hooked i would keep going back to github more and more as time went by
[576.92 --> 585.94]  um and the summer before my junior year which was i guess the summer of 2012 i worked for um several
[585.94 --> 591.76]  companies but i worked for cornell in the college of agriculture and life sciences communications
[591.76 --> 596.16]  department not the academic department but in the sort of college communications department
[596.16 --> 602.42]  and we were rebuilding our site and i'd used jekyll a little bit heard about it and said why don't we
[602.42 --> 607.16]  use jekyll for this site it'll be great it's all of the uh the information that they needed or
[607.16 --> 612.94]  you know the requirements for the site um the cals.cornell.edu which is still running jekyll at the moment
[612.94 --> 619.72]  um all the requirements were were perfect they they fit the bill perfectly for a static site
[619.72 --> 625.28]  generator so i was like let's use jekyll and we used jekyll and it was kind of painful um and i was
[625.28 --> 630.58]  writing a lot of plugins and and hacking around um and going through the source code and sort of learn
[630.58 --> 638.44]  the ins and outs of how jekyll worked through that experience and also the annoyance um of there were
[638.44 --> 644.28]  string encoding errors and you know the file system watcher was uh directory watcher was still really
[644.28 --> 651.74]  old and so so there was a lot to be done and i recognized this um and in december i said you know
[651.74 --> 657.32]  i really like this project and i really want to see it succeed and so i emailed tom press and warner
[657.32 --> 663.84]  um and he eventually got back to me around christmas time and was like let's skype and so we chatted on
[663.84 --> 670.06]  skype and um he was like all right i'm going to give you a contributor access to the repo um you
[670.06 --> 674.18]  seem to know what you're doing um just don't merge any pull requests don't change anything in master
[674.18 --> 679.92]  yet great so like just go through the issues and so i spent my entire winter break going through the
[679.92 --> 688.10]  issues on majumbo jekyll um and went through like 300 or 400 in the first week um just sort of going
[688.10 --> 695.64]  through and closing the ones that were um that we you know had to close because they were past done or
[695.64 --> 704.32]  um it was a quick fix or whatever and um and actually one day so i was in rochester for that
[704.32 --> 712.72]  time and um nick coronto um q rush crush yeah um on twitter and github um was also a contributor to
[712.72 --> 718.24]  to jekyll he had access from you know from early on um and he's in buffalo and buffalo is only about
[718.24 --> 724.64]  an hour away drive from rochester so i went one night to a buffalo open hack night um and he and i
[724.64 --> 729.96]  hacked on on jekyll um which was awesome and we closed a lot of issues as a result of that that one
[729.96 --> 735.04]  night so just sort of got more and more involved and became more and more obsessed with this product
[735.04 --> 743.96]  um and the potential of static sites um and sort of continued on and i went in january late january
[743.96 --> 751.20]  of of 2013 i decided to take a semester off from school altogether and went to go work for um sex
[751.20 --> 757.86]  wunderkinder in berlin they make wonderlist right and um and i loved wonderlist and i love the people
[757.86 --> 762.76]  that were that work there um so i was like hey you know is there a possibility that i could intern with
[762.76 --> 767.50]  you and they interviewed me and they were like you should come intern um and so of course yes
[767.50 --> 776.66]  what have you and so i i went to go intern um and learned a lot there um which you know which was
[776.66 --> 781.36]  and it was an absolutely amazing experience so you're actually in germany or just did you intern
[781.36 --> 787.14]  from here in the states i was i was actually living in berlin i lived on chalsea just off of
[787.14 --> 796.50]  no on chalsea straße um right there in in mitte wow so so i i had a lot of free time because in
[796.50 --> 802.04]  college i didn't i don't have a lot of free time when i'm in classes um but i have a lot of free time
[802.04 --> 809.02]  when i'm working nine to five so which is surprising to me um so i was i was you know hacking on jekyll more
[809.02 --> 816.50]  and more and we released 1.0 by may and so this is what about i guess may of 2013 right yep
[816.50 --> 821.54]  just about a year ago so you you've kind of had this pattern of impressing people and getting the
[821.54 --> 828.04]  right connections i i guess pretty much early on and then using that as as a way to bootstrap your
[828.04 --> 834.08]  skill set and bootstrap your abilities and kind of get in the right places so how much i guess maybe
[834.08 --> 839.58]  to rewind maybe a tiny bit how much do you know about the earlier days of of jekyll and kind of where
[839.58 --> 845.38]  it came from and its philosophy and then i guess now uh as of this past may which would be one year
[845.38 --> 851.80]  since 1.0 basically right so you got 2.0 that just came out yep yeah so i don't actually know
[851.80 --> 856.76]  very much about the early days i know it used to be called auto blog um so it was originally very
[856.76 --> 863.90]  focused on blogging um and originally very um more blog centric than than blog aware as it as it now
[863.90 --> 870.98]  states right um i'm not sure what what tom's original wishes for it were i think he just wanted
[870.98 --> 874.66]  to write a static blog and didn't like any of the products that were available and so he wrote it
[874.66 --> 881.66]  um along with along with nick so i'm not really sure about the early days but the philosophy was
[881.66 --> 888.22]  was in the readme um a blog aware and and in the um github description as well a blog aware static site
[888.22 --> 894.44]  generator so i sort of took that and based on the issues and how people were using it um molded it into
[894.44 --> 898.68]  something that i thought people would like yeah let's talk about that a little bit then because
[898.68 --> 907.94]  um i it almost seems like you're you you've said a couple times a product uh you kind of act even i
[907.94 --> 913.10]  would you probably would agree with this but um like a product manager like you listen to the crowd
[913.10 --> 917.98]  or you kind of um you know you go through the like you'd mentioned you know earlier in the in your
[917.98 --> 923.18]  history with with jekyll that you kind of went through several hundred issues in a weekend to kind of
[923.18 --> 928.74]  get a heartbeat of where it's at what kind of um a telltale signs i guess did you use that are
[928.74 --> 934.06]  inherent in issues with jekyll that helped you understand where it was coming from or where it
[934.06 --> 939.02]  needed to go to be successful for the people that were using it that's a really awesome question i
[939.02 --> 945.86]  think um when i was going through the issues the biggest of course uh indicator of of a problem or a
[945.86 --> 951.12]  feature that should be implemented is the sheer number of comments on the um on the issue if there's
[951.12 --> 957.00]  an issue like for right now there's an issue that stands open um for incremental regeneration uh
[957.00 --> 962.40]  basically taking a site that's already been built um understanding the current state and then only
[962.40 --> 968.06]  only changing or rebuilding the pieces that need to be rebuilt which is a you know an np hard problem
[968.06 --> 972.20]  yeah it's probably a huge saving too for the the disc you're on and just in general this is speed
[972.20 --> 976.76]  exactly exactly it would be a huge win um and there are a lot of people who've said this would be
[976.76 --> 980.70]  amazing this would be amazing and of course i mean you know we've just both agreed it would be an
[980.70 --> 986.32]  amazing feature um the as i was going through the you know several hundred issues i think there were
[986.32 --> 993.80]  like 623 or something uh open issues when i took when i came on to the project um as i was going through
[993.80 --> 1000.20]  them depending upon the number of comments and the sort of logic of each argument um i sort of weighed
[1000.20 --> 1007.38]  them in a certain way um if there was a and and sort of got to know how people were using it based on
[1007.38 --> 1013.42]  their comments and the issues and the you know occasional site that i would come across um on
[1013.42 --> 1020.02]  some repository on github um and as that as i sort of got to know a little bit more about how people
[1020.02 --> 1026.12]  were using the product um i said you know this we should support this or or this is not really how we
[1026.12 --> 1030.28]  envision this product to be used but maybe we can make a compromise and just make it easily
[1030.28 --> 1034.56]  extensible so they can build it on their server without having to do all this crazy monkey patching
[1034.56 --> 1041.40]  etc um and so sort of weighing what are jekyll's primary objectives based on what was in the readme
[1041.40 --> 1048.64]  versus how are people using it versus how do people want to be using it what is the best sort of
[1048.64 --> 1053.70]  middle ground between those three elements um and i've i've that that took a lot of thought
[1053.70 --> 1060.14]  and when you first take over a project or first enter into a project like jekyll that has been
[1060.14 --> 1068.08]  around for five years um and is is relatively successful um it it took me probably six months
[1068.08 --> 1075.68]  to figure out exactly what what the trajectory for this product should be i'd imagine even your
[1075.68 --> 1081.70]  your methodology had to be pretty methodical too to kind of go through comments and i mean maybe
[1081.70 --> 1085.50]  you're weighing them based on is there a code sample you know how passionate is this person is
[1085.50 --> 1092.38]  it you know is this person commenting on several other issues as well or kicking up issues um i gotta
[1092.38 --> 1097.28]  imagine that was a pretty tough job to triage and like you said six months to even get a heartbeat
[1097.28 --> 1102.88]  that's that's a lot yeah um and it's it part of it is because there's so many people using it and
[1102.88 --> 1108.04]  and as well it was still being used on github pages so i sort of had to weigh in well how would
[1108.04 --> 1114.04]  this change github pages is this still secure for github pages um and one of the things that tom said
[1114.04 --> 1120.82]  to me during our initial chat was um basically like instill the fear in me of change which is very
[1120.82 --> 1129.24]  interesting um that said jekyll is is good as it is it is good at present it's good um it can be great
[1129.24 --> 1135.82]  but it shouldn't be but the the the way to get to greatness is not through completely rewriting
[1135.82 --> 1140.58]  everything that you have um basically to say add on to what you have change the things that
[1140.58 --> 1147.20]  absolutely must be changed um but don't don't go too crazy basically um so in terms of accepting
[1147.20 --> 1151.76]  pull requests that made me very skeptical um originally i was like oh you want this feature
[1151.76 --> 1158.38]  let's you know let's merge it in it'll be great but as long as the ci passed um but as after time
[1158.38 --> 1164.54]  after some amount of time even the the general idea not even just the code i would scrutinize
[1164.54 --> 1168.88]  um significantly is this something that is useful to the majority of jekyll users for example
[1168.88 --> 1177.52]  is this something that is safe to run on on github pages is this something etc etc so um it it has
[1177.52 --> 1184.30]  taken a long time but but yeah it's it's been i think that's a really key part to to taking over a
[1184.30 --> 1192.58]  project into to making something cool so what um i guess maybe playing off of if i'm tracking with
[1192.58 --> 1199.58]  you uh early on tom said you know hey you know kind of toe the line so to speak you know when you
[1199.58 --> 1206.00]  first took over how is that how is that contrast against how you are now with the project and what
[1206.00 --> 1213.72]  changed so when we when i initially took over tom was still very much present um
[1213.72 --> 1220.46]  you know quote unquote so i could i had a tag on on the issues that was at my jumbo and i would email
[1220.46 --> 1225.20]  him if that got too high maybe 35 issues or something like that and it just needed a decision
[1225.20 --> 1230.72]  by him it just needed you know hey what do you think about this um is this a good idea bad idea
[1230.72 --> 1236.98]  so i sort of at the beginning was was really chatting with him a lot um as much as possible
[1236.98 --> 1243.52]  and getting his idea about what the product and where it should go and as a contrast to now
[1243.52 --> 1252.38]  i have complete control um i can't imagine so i have complete control in the literal sense in that
[1252.38 --> 1258.96]  i can change anything but uh there's still some philosophical constraints of course in that i want
[1258.96 --> 1263.42]  it to be something that people like to use etc um and something that that continues on with the
[1263.42 --> 1268.70]  tradition of what jekyll has been um if you take a product and you completely modify what it's like
[1268.70 --> 1273.54]  completely change everything then it's no longer the same thing so existing jekyll sites for example
[1273.54 --> 1279.80]  i don't want someone to write a site and then for it to immediately break um we've with the 2.0 release
[1279.80 --> 1286.46]  we did our best to to maximize the number of backwards compatible changes um i think there was like
[1286.46 --> 1293.14]  maybe one backwards incompatible change and it was we still had a way to to work around it so
[1293.14 --> 1302.00]  not to mention too you also had github as as uh i guess a uh a customer so to speak um right because
[1302.00 --> 1306.20]  they're using it for pages and they obviously have a trajectory where they're taking uh pages and what
[1306.20 --> 1312.46]  they're doing with it not it's obviously a large part of the open source ecosystem where people host
[1312.46 --> 1318.54]  their docs on there or they host their you know single page kind of here's my repo kind of thing or
[1318.54 --> 1324.80]  even just simple sites it was a part of what github was doing so how did uh i guess maybe to break the
[1324.80 --> 1330.60]  seal on this so right now you're an intern also at github so that that kind of had to blossom into even
[1330.60 --> 1337.82]  new opportunities for you can you talk a little about that yeah so so um my my exact title is a
[1337.82 --> 1346.88]  as a github pages contractor and so i as a contractor and um i'm working on github pages and trying to make it
[1346.88 --> 1351.78]  an even better platform um some of the changes that we've released like the site.github namespace
[1351.78 --> 1357.28]  um there's been there's been a complete rewrite behind the scenes in the back since i've i've
[1357.28 --> 1364.46]  joined the team um and basically what that's done is allowed me to gain new insights into how
[1364.46 --> 1369.72]  jackal's being used um in particular i'm working with ben balter who's an amazing guy um really
[1369.72 --> 1376.80]  brilliant um he recently he graduated from law school um was a wordpress core contributor um
[1376.80 --> 1384.40]  was a white house presidential um innovation fellow is just a crazy cool guy um and he's sort
[1384.40 --> 1388.94]  of been my mentor on that project um the guy watching over me making sure i don't mess up too
[1388.94 --> 1397.06]  many things and uh and because he's focused on government i've gotten a huge i've i've gleaned a
[1397.06 --> 1406.42]  new or gained a huge appreciation in how um how jackal is being used on on the massive scale or larger scale
[1406.42 --> 1412.64]  um so if you're if you're a government institution that wants to publish data how can how are they
[1412.64 --> 1418.72]  using jackal to publish data for example um they're using wordpress and jackal in many many occasions
[1418.72 --> 1429.18]  to publish open data to um publish process um project open data is a jackal site um and they're
[1429.18 --> 1435.36]  using that to write policy around open data if you're you know the city of chicago how should your how
[1435.36 --> 1439.74]  should your data be released and what are the what are the guidelines surrounding that that entire
[1439.74 --> 1446.74]  project that um every everything within that all the content is written um written as a jackal site
[1446.74 --> 1453.18]  that's funny that you mention uh ben because you know he also just being a core contributor to
[1453.18 --> 1459.06]  wordpress uh you know for those who know about jack or maybe this is you're a listener this is the
[1459.06 --> 1464.18]  first time you're hearing about it i don't know where you've been but um wordpress and jekyll tend
[1464.18 --> 1470.58]  to fall into the same conversation because it tends to be a fork a choice of left or right jekyll or
[1470.58 --> 1475.60]  wordpress and you know a lot of the reasons why developers like is one because it's just
[1475.60 --> 1479.68]  developer centric i think far more than maybe wordpress is but not in a bad way
[1479.68 --> 1484.40]  wordpress is kind of designed and delivered as a product for different types of people and different
[1484.40 --> 1489.32]  types of developers but you know the separation of the database and stuff like that so does does
[1489.32 --> 1493.44]  ben get involved with the product is he involved with jekyll now or is he just kind of advisor to you
[1493.44 --> 1499.44]  he's he's definitely involved in the product um not as much as as i am you know he's not he's not
[1499.44 --> 1504.44]  around day to day um but when i have sweeping questions or large questions i would have sweeping
[1504.44 --> 1511.28]  effects on the product i tend to tend to run them by him um he actually was kind enough to
[1511.28 --> 1516.52]  invite me out to san francisco um or out to the github headquarters i was interning for visual
[1516.52 --> 1521.72]  supply company at the time out to the github headquarters one saturday to sort of host a
[1521.72 --> 1526.44]  jekyll nano summit uh there's a github issue with all of the on jekyll jekyll with all of the details
[1526.44 --> 1534.88]  of that summit um and we sat in the situation room in the github office um and it was ben and me and
[1534.88 --> 1541.80]  mislove um who's a great guy and tom came for about an hour um and or an hour and a half and then
[1541.80 --> 1550.06]  um garen um as well gj tarikian i think um i'm not sure about your name sorry garen uh your last name
[1550.06 --> 1556.52]  rather um and so we sat around and matt matt uh rogers of course my co-maintener um he was in he
[1556.52 --> 1563.98]  wasn't able to come physically but but he was he was beamed in via blue jeans um and so we we sort of
[1563.98 --> 1569.14]  chatted about the the future of jekyll what we wanted for 2.0 what we wanted for 3.0 sort of what
[1569.14 --> 1578.32]  the future would be um so ben has been a significant advisor um and has has sort of opened up or suggested
[1578.32 --> 1583.90]  things like a nano summit where we would all meet and chat about it you know in in meet space um that
[1583.90 --> 1590.10]  i would never have thought to do um so he and you know he scheduled all of that he flew out from dc
[1590.10 --> 1596.74]  um to get to san francisco just for this um and it was a it was a really cool experience so he's been
[1596.74 --> 1602.14]  he's been an advisor a serious very serious advisor of this project um partly because i think he sees
[1602.14 --> 1608.74]  the potential of static site generators and the because jekyll's already on github pages the amazing
[1608.74 --> 1616.66]  potential for um open data for um open source websites in general um the bootstrap website the
[1616.66 --> 1623.38]  ratchet websites are both open source and on github pages um and so and the you know it's an
[1623.38 --> 1629.54]  alternative to to wordpress in many ways because it is very content focused though it's less focused
[1629.54 --> 1634.90]  about how does my theme look um it's more focused on what are the words that i'm putting out there to
[1634.90 --> 1643.56]  for the world to see um it he's sort of been an evangelist in many ways of jekyll um and a wonderful
[1643.56 --> 1650.52]  supporter of it let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to our sponsor snap snap is a
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[1698.20 --> 1707.08]  free for 30 days today sign up at snap ci.com slash the changelog i never really thought about the i mean i
[1707.08 --> 1711.96]  guess it's it seems kind of obvious and logical but i never really thought about the impact to
[1712.68 --> 1719.40]  increase the level of open source whether it's code content or whatnot that jekyll's actually had the
[1719.40 --> 1723.72]  impact of i always kind of i guess i really just never thought about it like that because i mean
[1723.72 --> 1729.40]  we covered chicago's open data about a year ago when they first started to publish a lot of their
[1729.40 --> 1734.04]  open data and whatnot they're leading the way in a lot of ways for local governments to do that kind
[1734.04 --> 1740.68]  of stuff and then what you mentioned too about just documentation and then twitter bootstrap and other
[1740.68 --> 1746.68]  sites that are kind of put out there and they're open right like even even your site your your blog is
[1746.68 --> 1751.80]  open on github it's you know it's it's kind of like it just seems like a natural thing and it only
[1751.80 --> 1757.96]  helps uh bootstrap and bolster this open open source ecosystem we all kind of desire to be in
[1758.76 --> 1766.36]  exactly and one of the main tenants of of jekyll um has always been to to as much as possible and
[1766.36 --> 1772.52]  github pages helps with this tremendously as much as possible open source your website um yeah let let
[1772.52 --> 1778.68]  other people learn from it there's a great uh page on the wiki the jekyll wiki called sites and it we
[1778.68 --> 1784.60]  have this one one rule you post the link to your site but you must post the source for your site as
[1784.60 --> 1789.00]  well so if your sort if your site isn't open source it can't be on the sites page and there's something
[1789.00 --> 1795.00]  like a thousand almost a thousand um sites with their sources linked directly next to the to where the
[1795.00 --> 1800.36]  page is so if you go to see a site that you really like then the source is right there for you to look
[1800.36 --> 1806.44]  at um so it's a great learning learning tool and anyone who has a site anyone who has a github
[1806.44 --> 1814.20]  account can edit it so it's it the the jekyll community has been hugely a huge proponent i guess
[1814.20 --> 1819.08]  of open source and making sure that they can learn from each other the way that open source champions
[1820.20 --> 1825.96]  before we uh i guess before we turn away from i guess maybe newer topics more topics
[1825.96 --> 1830.84]  uh i want to ask you a bit more detail if you can share it about the conversation that ben
[1831.32 --> 1837.24]  had with you when he kind of enlightened you about the overarching ecosystem of jekyll like
[1837.24 --> 1840.84]  what was that conversation what were some of the things he kind of fed you to help you really get
[1840.84 --> 1844.12]  the aha moment and and kind of be able to tackle what you've done
[1846.12 --> 1851.96]  the so it's been sort of an ongoing conversation it's it's you know comments here and there in in
[1851.96 --> 1859.08]  the github pages repo and on jekyll um as well as at that nano summit but the the overarching or
[1859.08 --> 1867.08]  sort of the aha moment that i had was um when when ben said two things two things that i really i
[1867.08 --> 1871.88]  really cared about one was um be the pull request that you want to see in the world which is really
[1871.88 --> 1877.08]  cliche but really awesome and goes along with the um let's make jekyll the coolest thing that that
[1877.08 --> 1883.16]  it can be not because we want it but because everyone wants it um and and because everyone
[1883.16 --> 1888.60]  can contribute to it if they if they wish um and the second thing is make it as simple as possible
[1888.60 --> 1896.04]  absorb complexity as much as possible that is that is the way to a good product um and that i've sort
[1896.04 --> 1902.36]  of you know github itself um the organization and all of its employees champion that that concept
[1902.36 --> 1906.36]  if you're not you don't make your your user interface simple if you don't make the process
[1906.36 --> 1910.20]  simple then people aren't going to use it people aren't going to do do what you're asking them to do
[1910.84 --> 1915.88]  so um he's really molded this product into something that is as simple as possible
[1916.44 --> 1924.12]  um and that's you know sort of where it's been an ongoing conversation but um sort of where we get that
[1924.12 --> 1931.96]  that that heightened sense of simplicity from i guess since uh this might be a good time to talk about
[1932.36 --> 1937.80]  um you know i guess earlier um i'm almost forget which month it is sometimes but i guess it's
[1937.80 --> 1942.20]  earlier this month because it's it's the the last day of the month we're recording on may 30th by the
[1942.20 --> 1947.32]  way um because the show doesn't always come out the same day we we actually record it but earlier this
[1947.32 --> 1955.80]  month um you released um jekyll 2.0 but you know kind of flipping that on its head last year you were
[1955.80 --> 1963.72]  releasing 1.0 a lot's changed you got a lot of newfound vision because of this history and and
[1963.72 --> 1969.48]  all that what is what are some of the core things that change from jekyll 1.0 to jekyll 2.0 and then
[1969.48 --> 1974.84]  also i guess to maybe make sure that the those who have been using jekyll for the last five years
[1974.84 --> 1982.36]  don't have breaking sites right so to answer the first half the question what has changed um we
[1982.36 --> 1988.68]  introduced a lot of things that that a lot of new concepts and a lot of um support for technologies
[1988.68 --> 1994.04]  that people were using so the two main concepts that i really enjoyed working on and really enjoyed
[1994.04 --> 2001.16]  uh releasing i was really excited to release were um collections and uh yaml front matter defaults
[2001.72 --> 2011.00]  um so collections allow you to define a series of documents um all collected into one one entity as it
[2011.00 --> 2016.76]  were um so one of the reasons or the reason that we originally wrote this um this feature was
[2016.76 --> 2024.52]  actually because during the jekyll nano summit mislov said i'm writing for zepto the api documentation
[2024.52 --> 2031.72]  i want to have one page per document or rather one page per method in the or function in the api
[2031.72 --> 2039.08]  and i don't want to have to mangle jekyll you know monkey patch it up the wazoo in order to actually
[2039.08 --> 2047.40]  write write write out individual pages for um for my um uh excuse me form for the api
[2048.44 --> 2055.72]  and i don't want to mixing up the pages um or posts and i don't want to use posts for it etc etc
[2055.72 --> 2061.40]  so he wanted a lot more customization um he wanted to be able to take the take the the documents and
[2062.20 --> 2068.60]  import them into collection or into pages as well so include them um and write them out so he needed
[2068.60 --> 2074.44]  them to be to some insurance to make sure that they were processed beforehand etc he wanted them to be
[2074.44 --> 2080.36]  to be custom um he didn't want to necessarily have to have them write out as a file um so collections
[2080.36 --> 2088.12]  natively or in the base most basic sense um you have a series of documents um that contain data yaml
[2088.12 --> 2095.80]  front matter um and content and that's it um you can optionally set up um each individual document to
[2095.80 --> 2100.76]  have an output file um that just goes into forward slash collection name forward slash document name
[2100.76 --> 2108.76]  um and that will output an individual file if you want that um but the idea is is sort of data um
[2109.40 --> 2114.68]  plus content mixed together in a nice way that isn't this isn't just yaml can you give an example of it
[2114.68 --> 2121.16]  is that i'm thinking is it like if i were publishing a podcast so to speak would it be like a podcast is
[2121.16 --> 2125.88]  that what you mean where it acts like a page or acts like a post does by normal traits but you kind
[2125.88 --> 2133.24]  of give it its own name space and it's its own kind of model so to speak right so you use collections
[2133.24 --> 2137.32]  for anything that isn't necessarily date sensitive although you can use dates and collections if you
[2137.32 --> 2146.28]  want to um with when we were first setting up the jekyll site for example we had each docs docs page set up in as
[2146.28 --> 2153.72]  a post it was just like 2010 01 01 here's my post uh or here's my docs page and we set it up as a post
[2153.72 --> 2158.84]  because we wanted to make sure it was processed before the pages write them out into pages etc um
[2158.84 --> 2166.84]  and have an individual an individual html file generated for each docs page as well so when we were
[2166.84 --> 2173.24]  doing that it it was creating a collection of items but in the only only collection that we had which was
[2173.24 --> 2179.32]  posts um you can think of posts as a date centric collection okay um of of documents and each document
[2179.32 --> 2185.96]  is called a post in that case um so what we wanted to do is take that idea and generalize it not make
[2185.96 --> 2193.16]  it so date centric people were kept asking hey can we remove the dates from our posts of course in a in
[2193.16 --> 2199.80]  in a blog you every post should have a date um that's the point of a blog it's it's a chronologically
[2199.80 --> 2205.96]  ordered um series of content so we said well if we're not going to take dates out of out of posts
[2205.96 --> 2214.52]  let's you know create some more generalized concept um that's based on posts but um allows you to um
[2215.16 --> 2222.28]  to collect various items um and write them out to individual files or just just have that data um so
[2222.28 --> 2229.56]  an example is if we were to rewrite if jekyll 2.0 were up on getup pages um i would take the all the
[2229.56 --> 2236.76]  docs pages that we have for jekyll at the moment in site docs and i would move them into a collection
[2236.76 --> 2241.80]  called docs they would probably exist the same way that they do right now but they would exist within
[2241.80 --> 2249.32]  this site.docs collection this would allow me to iterate over them if if there were maybe two pages
[2249.32 --> 2254.68]  that i wanted to have on the same output page so two or two documents that i want to have this on the
[2254.68 --> 2261.00]  same page or if i wanted to list all the pages in like a site map um then i don't have to say okay
[2261.00 --> 2269.88]  site.pages like four four page and site.pages in liquid um and i explicitly remove all of the css pages
[2269.88 --> 2276.76]  or then you know index.html pages that aren't docs i have this one subset of the site in this underscore
[2276.76 --> 2284.52]  docs folder that i can i can iterate over that i can output that i can etc um as its own entity
[2284.52 --> 2290.52]  so i guess you can think of collections as a subset of the content of a of a site in a way
[2290.52 --> 2295.88]  and this is just one of the many changes and also i guess it's probably smart to drop a caveat in there
[2295.88 --> 2302.38]  that uh the collections is kind of unstable it's in it's it's out there but it's not finalized it may
[2302.38 --> 2308.72]  change right right um and the other thing that we that we did or the major major feature was yaml
[2308.72 --> 2313.54]  front matter defaults so if you kept writing that you wanted the layout to be article or layout to be post
[2313.54 --> 2319.92]  um in all of your posts or all of your pages in a specific uh subdirectory now all that you have
[2319.92 --> 2326.54]  to do is add a few lines to your your configuration file and you have layout post set for all of the
[2326.54 --> 2331.46]  posts or pages that you specify um right now yaml front matter defaults don't work with collections
[2331.46 --> 2338.30]  which is a bummer um but we're we're working on getting it for the 2.1 release which should happen soon
[2338.30 --> 2347.26]  so i'm trying to think of where we can go where we can go next i know i got a couple of things on my
[2347.26 --> 2350.10]  my list that i want to mention but um
[2350.10 --> 2358.76]  i guess maybe i don't exactly struggle to to really i mean i guess maybe to some degree i do
[2358.76 --> 2363.44]  but you know what's the sweet spot for jekyll you mentioned earlier with cornell working there and how
[2363.44 --> 2368.16]  you had this list of requirements and jekyll was perfect but that was way back you know several
[2368.16 --> 2374.32]  years ago at least it seems to be um you know what is the sweet spot for jekyll i know we talked a
[2374.32 --> 2378.40]  little bit about documentation but for those who are listening out there that aren't using jekyll
[2378.40 --> 2385.42]  what would make them want to use it why should they use jekyll like it's not a cms it's not a blog
[2385.42 --> 2392.92]  it's evolved right right i would say for two for two reasons i always stick with jekyll the first
[2392.92 --> 2399.94]  reason is that i can use git i can use my lovely version control system um to version my content
[2399.94 --> 2405.74]  not just the theme or whatever that i have um but i can version my content which is amazing i can submit
[2405.74 --> 2411.88]  a pull request for my content um and that's that's hugely powerful um the second reason i'd say is
[2411.88 --> 2417.70]  because it's a static site generator and this is true of any static site generator um the sweet spot
[2417.70 --> 2424.16]  is really in page load time um there have been a couple people who run um jekyll sites on their own
[2424.16 --> 2432.56]  servers maybe like a t1 small or something um on on aws and they never their server never goes down
[2432.56 --> 2438.20]  whereas if you have wordpress you run into problems with memory or you run into problems with the database
[2438.20 --> 2442.90]  load being too high and so your database just cancels connections um or you can't connect to
[2442.90 --> 2448.18]  it when the when someone loads your site so by stripping all of this out and just having an html
[2448.18 --> 2453.68]  file that nginx or apache says oh here's your static file here like here's the content that you need
[2453.68 --> 2462.62]  amazing um it it reduces any problems you would have with scalability to a ridiculous degree so i know
[2462.62 --> 2469.44]  i'm kind of uh hopping on one of those things you mentioned there because the changelog is actually
[2469.44 --> 2475.66]  a wordpress site and we're on digital ocean we have a pretty beefy server at digital ocean so we like
[2475.66 --> 2480.88]  it i mean it's it's great but for a bit there we had issues with our site toppling over and getting
[2480.88 --> 2487.00]  database connect connection issues because basically mysql would uh you know bubble up to the point where
[2487.00 --> 2490.72]  it would take all the memory and then apache couldn't run anymore so it couldn't connect to mysql
[2490.72 --> 2498.28]  or something to that degree it was just a mess and essentially we kind of did uh essentially what
[2498.28 --> 2503.42]  i would probably consider a reversal right we kind of did what would eventually just become cached files
[2503.42 --> 2509.76]  right but you know we used uh wp cache to to cache all of our files which essentially is exactly what
[2509.76 --> 2514.66]  jekyll helps you produce in the first place which is a static site essentially take this dynamic site
[2514.66 --> 2521.88]  and make it static based on cache times and you know um time stamps and stuff like that so it's
[2521.88 --> 2527.90]  that's the one that i can actually really kick myself in the butt for but at the same time i love a lot of
[2527.90 --> 2533.26]  what wordpress gives but you know i never really um moved over to jekyll because of like multi-author
[2533.26 --> 2537.66]  support and stuff like that what do you say to people when they talk about multi-authoring and just
[2537.66 --> 2546.60]  i guess publishing tools that make the job a little easier so one thing that i've i followed intensely
[2546.60 --> 2551.24]  and actually that i think ben originally told me about was prose and i'm sure you've heard of this
[2551.24 --> 2557.94]  but prose is sort of the the silver bullet um or is intended to be at least the silver bullet
[2557.94 --> 2564.56]  um publisher for jekyll sites online i've seen this yeah you you connect to your your github account
[2564.56 --> 2571.22]  you go to a um repository that you have a site and you make edits and you commit them and it's
[2571.22 --> 2577.92]  great um unfortunately sort of development on prose has slowed down significantly as it's not being used
[2577.92 --> 2585.92]  as much by the development seed team um these these amazing guys down in um down in dc were the ones who
[2585.92 --> 2589.92]  originally created it i think they were the ones who originally created the landing page for health
[2589.92 --> 2597.04]  healthcare.gov using jekyll um and so they've created what they of replacement basically for this
[2597.04 --> 2602.24]  for the authoring tools that that wordpress gives you so one of the things that i've always loved about
[2602.24 --> 2607.98]  wordpress is that it's super simple to go in and make a change and then you know you click you hit save
[2607.98 --> 2614.72]  it puts it in the database and you're done um what prose aims to do is is emulate that process but for
[2614.72 --> 2620.02]  jekyll sites using version control um so when you instead of hitting save you hit commit um instead
[2620.02 --> 2627.04]  of of you know going to a specific instead of going to your site slash wp-admin you go to
[2627.04 --> 2635.00]  prose.io slash you know your your site uh repo slash the path and then you edit it commit it you're done
[2635.00 --> 2641.56]  you said it's is it uh slowing down on development right now is that what you said at the moment it's
[2641.56 --> 2645.74]  it's not really it's under active development but it's it's a little bit slow at the moment
[2645.74 --> 2650.48]  um and that's just because it's there's no immediate pressure um if there's anyone who's
[2650.48 --> 2657.42]  really interested in in um you know having it continue can you continue to uh to be developed
[2657.42 --> 2663.06]  um and to to see it grow i'm sure that the development seed guys would be interested in hearing
[2663.06 --> 2667.76]  from you um it's all in javascript and it all runs on github pages with the exception of
[2667.76 --> 2674.54]  something called gatekeeper which is the um heroku app that does all of the oauth with github
[2674.54 --> 2680.54]  we'll have to either get them on the show or or uh find a way to i guess put some light on that i
[2680.54 --> 2684.94]  mean that's i'm glad you mentioned that because it's it's under development but maybe they're just
[2684.94 --> 2689.60]  are they just not feeling like oh it's really needed because it's not being used by a lot of
[2689.60 --> 2695.00]  people is that the is that the concern now it's being used by by a pretty good chunk of people but
[2695.00 --> 2700.00]  it's it's because it doesn't they they originally developed it so that they could write healthcare.gov
[2700.00 --> 2706.16]  right in a way you know the majority of healthcare.gov the content based uh piece of healthcare.gov
[2706.16 --> 2709.46]  the things that don't need to be dynamic basically the marketplace for example would have to be dynamic
[2709.46 --> 2715.04]  but um you know just you know faqs and that sort of thing don't have to be dynamic so they originally
[2715.04 --> 2722.56]  wrote it so that anyone um could could have this wonderful interface for changing files um and so
[2722.56 --> 2727.28]  people aren't using it as much and the development is slow because they aren't using it anymore
[2727.28 --> 2733.98]  yeah i feel like i almost feel like there's i know you're in school and you've got a busy life
[2733.98 --> 2738.92]  and maybe this isn't you know the only thing you wanted to do in your development career but i kind of
[2738.92 --> 2744.02]  feel like maybe you might inherit uh not so much another project but at least kind of bring that into
[2744.02 --> 2749.76]  the fold so to speak because it's so closely aligned with um you know this publishing way for
[2749.76 --> 2754.06]  jekyll that makes it a little easier because one of the concerns that i think we tend to have is
[2754.06 --> 2759.22]  it's okay for us as developers to like you know use git and push via the command line we're very
[2759.22 --> 2763.28]  comfortable with those kinds of things but it's when we start to invite our business analysts and
[2763.28 --> 2767.98]  other people that are not always so fluent with it who may just want to go in make the change like
[2767.98 --> 2773.88]  you said and click save they want that experience they don't want to you know have a certain ruby
[2773.88 --> 2778.64]  installed or you know do i use rvm should i use how do i version my you know how should i use my ruby
[2778.64 --> 2782.74]  and then you start to bring all these questions into somebody like forget it uh can we just use
[2782.74 --> 2787.66]  wordpress uh wordpress works or you know that might be an example of the conversation you might have so
[2787.66 --> 2792.64]  i feel like there's an opportunity here maybe to to bring that into the fold and make it part of your
[2792.64 --> 2800.02]  your uh your work with jekyll and github pages absolutely um and i you know we need a couple a couple
[2800.02 --> 2805.38]  more things for example previews um for a pull request i've always wanted for github pages to build
[2805.38 --> 2812.90]  pull requests if you can build a pull request then you can see the resulting site um on github servers
[2812.90 --> 2818.08]  immediately you don't have to wait um or you don't have to clone it down and deal with ruby installation
[2818.08 --> 2823.82]  um one of the pain points for jekyll is definitely installing ruby um it's it's not supported technically
[2823.82 --> 2829.90]  on windows but it is um you know it's not too hard to get it up and running um but it's still a bit
[2829.90 --> 2835.52]  difficult so there are a couple more elements that i have to have to come and come into uh into the
[2835.52 --> 2842.74]  fold here but once those are in place um if they do come to fruition then um then it would it would
[2842.74 --> 2848.46]  be a pretty easy easy fix i think pros is trying to take the intimidating um somewhat intimidating
[2848.46 --> 2853.84]  interface that that github has with issues and discussions and all this business um and make it
[2853.84 --> 2859.36]  as simple as possible and as friendly as possible um so they and and because it's jekyll specific they
[2859.36 --> 2864.70]  make ready and will front matter for example um a piece of cake so they just have individual form
[2864.70 --> 2870.26]  items that you can specify so your date should be a date and your title should always be um you know
[2870.26 --> 2874.24]  they give you a text box for your title and a drop down for your layouts and all of that stuff so
[2874.24 --> 2880.32]  um so you know there are just a couple more pieces and then and then i think we can make a bit we can
[2880.32 --> 2887.58]  make the switch so a mutual i guess a mutual friend of ours had uh two questions i guess one of you
[2887.58 --> 2890.90]  you've kind of mostly answered but if there's anything that maybe you left out that you want
[2890.90 --> 2895.20]  to mention you're welcome to but so to the questions brandon mathis is the mutual friend i'm
[2895.20 --> 2900.60]  talking about and we'll talk a bit more about your involvement with him and octopress and that kind
[2900.60 --> 2903.50]  of stuff but one of the things he wanted me to ask but i think we've already answered this to some
[2903.50 --> 2909.04]  degree so feel free to uh riff as needed but he said you know this is verbatim what he said parker
[2909.04 --> 2913.66]  came out of nowhere and impressed tom and i both enough to become significant parts of both of our
[2913.66 --> 2918.70]  projects jekyll and octopress as the projects uh get him to talk about how so i think you've kind
[2918.70 --> 2923.76]  of entered that but is there anything of the how that he's talking about that maybe you didn't leak
[2923.76 --> 2931.86]  so the that's that's a great question the the way that i got involved with jekyll is that i emailed tom
[2931.86 --> 2937.34]  tom was this is this was at the time the ceo of github um someone that i didn't think i was actually
[2937.34 --> 2942.54]  going to be in contact with ever he was not replying to issues um but i emailed him and i emailed him
[2942.54 --> 2948.70]  three times um over the course of like eight eight or nine months um and finally in december he replied
[2948.70 --> 2956.52]  so i think the key is to um sort of take that leap of faith as well as and i i got in contact with
[2956.52 --> 2960.20]  with brandon because i was following him because i loved octopress and i was using octopress for my
[2960.20 --> 2965.36]  blog um so i was following him and i was like hey do you need any help with octopress i tweeted at him
[2965.36 --> 2969.74]  and he was like yeah i would love some help with octopress and then we just sort of kept going with
[2969.74 --> 2976.62]  that um and uh so so it's you know reach out if you're interested is sort of the key um i think
[2976.62 --> 2982.20]  that the main bottleneck for finding uh added maintainers is the is to see their interest um
[2982.20 --> 2988.30]  are you interested in in devoting the time to to maintain something uh and to make it better um in
[2988.30 --> 2993.44]  in a more meaningful way than just submitting a pull request here and there um so i'd say persistence
[2993.44 --> 2999.50]  and just make that make that initial step okay so maybe dovetailing off of that then his second part
[2999.50 --> 3004.68]  of that question was uh and i had the same question so it's just kind of from both myself and brandon
[3004.68 --> 3010.04]  um and we'll talk you know for those listening and thinking what the heck is octopress we'll talk
[3010.04 --> 3014.60]  about it here in just a second but uh the second part of that question uh a series of questions is
[3014.60 --> 3017.76]  do you have any and i think you kind of touched a little bit just now on this but
[3017.76 --> 3023.88]  do you have any advice for those out there who uh are you know similar to you you know interested
[3023.88 --> 3028.10]  interested in technology but want to get started with open source software and don't really know
[3028.10 --> 3035.56]  where to start or really how to break through i suppose i think the the main barrier to entry is to
[3035.56 --> 3042.48]  know how how to contribute right so from from my perspective go go to the project that you're using
[3042.48 --> 3048.06]  the most maybe you're using rails um rails is a very intimidating project to first start off with
[3048.06 --> 3054.54]  um maybe go to jekyll go to jekyll find an issue that you care about um and find find an issue that
[3054.54 --> 3058.38]  you care about or that you think might be a relatively quick fix um even if you don't know the
[3058.38 --> 3064.42]  code doesn't matter whether you've looked at the code or not see that then then clone down the repo
[3064.42 --> 3069.04]  and look through the code a little bit try to familiarize yourself with how this particular product
[3069.04 --> 3076.32]  does what it does um once you've done that um then then try to pinpoint exactly where the issue
[3076.32 --> 3081.88]  is happening um and or at least where the issue might be might be occurring um change that submit
[3081.88 --> 3088.76]  your pull request um as best as possible add tests you know do sort of do do your dues as it were or
[3088.76 --> 3096.40]  um and in order to see that that would be merged um and submit an issue um or submit a pull request
[3096.40 --> 3101.70]  for that um if that's sometimes even that is too much um you know to to pick an issue that you
[3101.70 --> 3108.52]  might be able to handle and and um change it up or and you know fix it so maybe what you should do
[3108.52 --> 3114.20]  instead is find an issue that you're that you think might be um easy enough to do look through the code
[3114.20 --> 3119.70]  a little bit um and just write a comment and say like hey um i'm interested you know i'd love to help
[3119.70 --> 3126.22]  fix this um i'm not really sure where to start um maybe here here or here um and sort of sort of
[3126.22 --> 3131.28]  indicate that you're thinking about it and that you'd love to help um i'm i can i write way more
[3131.28 --> 3137.28]  comments that i than i you know than commits that i write um so i'm happy to to help someone through
[3137.28 --> 3142.38]  through that process um i love i love to see newcomers to jekyll it's the best thing in the world
[3142.38 --> 3148.48]  um to see people who have never um submitted a pull request or who made their github profile yesterday
[3148.48 --> 3154.98]  to only to read an issue or to submit a pull request so for people to you know find find that
[3154.98 --> 3158.56]  repository that or that project that you're interested in find an issue that you think you
[3158.56 --> 3163.02]  might be able to handle write a comment or just fix it um and submit a pull request if the pull
[3163.02 --> 3167.36]  request isn't the way that they want that they want to handle it uh the maintainers will say this
[3167.36 --> 3171.82]  isn't really how we want to handle it but here's how we would prefer um and then you can implement
[3171.82 --> 3177.52]  that um switch and switch things around so um it's it's more a matter of like just throwing
[3177.52 --> 3186.20]  yourself into the process and and at every turn offering your help and the time let's pause the
[3186.20 --> 3189.98]  show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor top towel now we've been working with top
[3189.98 --> 3194.80]  towel for about a year now almost a year now and we thought it would make sense to circle back
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[3201.34 --> 3206.22]  two to three percent of the engineers who apply make it past their strict elite engineering process
[3206.22 --> 3210.46]  and daniel lauzon a long-time listener and fan of the changelog
[3210.46 --> 3217.56]  is now living the dream he's an elite engineer top towel and i say living the dream because he's now
[3217.56 --> 3223.64]  able to have 100 control of the types of projects and technologies he's working on as well as the
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[3239.40 --> 3246.14]  it takes head to top towel.com slash developers that's t-o-p-t-a-l.com slash developers to get
[3246.14 --> 3252.50]  started tell them the changelog sent you i know a lot of the times when folks come on the show when
[3252.50 --> 3257.74]  we ask them which we'll ask you here in a bit like the call to arms is usually just help us triage
[3257.74 --> 3264.04]  issues especially a lot of high traffic projects with issues that you know have just lots it's you know
[3264.04 --> 3268.56]  sometimes it's just can you comment back to somebody can you just help me you know keep
[3268.56 --> 3272.74]  the heartbeat alive so that they don't think we're a bunch of jerks because we're busy writing code or
[3272.74 --> 3277.60]  busy with day jobs and this is like you in your spare time or your free time so you say you know
[3277.60 --> 3282.98]  so it's like it's kind of like that and then even i like what you said too about um not just saying hey
[3282.98 --> 3288.30]  how can i help it's i've got an idea about this particular problem i've got a couple ideas on how i can
[3288.30 --> 3293.86]  solve it or what i think might work can you give me some guidance because they'll respond easier to
[3293.86 --> 3300.66]  to at least you know some legwork versus just hey i'm here to help what can i do right pick up a broom
[3300.66 --> 3312.58]  you know exactly exactly so let's um let's talk um let's talk about uh your involvement not only with
[3312.58 --> 3317.76]  jekyll but then octopress this is like uh we've gotten through this pretty much you know this whole show
[3317.76 --> 3322.24]  without really mentioning the relationship between these two and i don't want to do it any ill justice
[3322.24 --> 3326.70]  because i haven't kind of riffed with brand much lately about the project and where it's going but i know
[3326.70 --> 3332.38]  you're involved in both now can you kind of give a you know the listeners kind of a mention of how
[3332.38 --> 3340.24]  these two projects align and where you see them fitting so octopress at the moment um in its current form
[3340.24 --> 3347.62]  in imathist slash octopress is sort of a framework around jekyll um a series of rake tasks usually uh
[3347.62 --> 3355.14]  generally um that makes it easier to work with jekyll um it comes with a built-in um classic theme
[3355.14 --> 3361.26]  that allows you to you just go rake install and it installs this theme which is beautiful um i'm sure
[3361.26 --> 3368.90]  you've seen it on a lot of sites um and it's the idea of of octopress is really to make it as easy
[3368.90 --> 3374.02]  as possible to get started blogging with jekyll um when you run gem install jekyll you have nothing
[3374.02 --> 3382.10]  available to you um you have now um since 1.0 i think or maybe 1.2 um you have jekyll new and jekyll
[3382.10 --> 3387.36]  new and then you give it a path will install some you know very basic very very run-of-the-mill um
[3387.36 --> 3393.84]  or you know bare bones skeleton sort of site um but if you're if you're looking for like if you're
[3393.84 --> 3398.98]  some erlang programmer or something and you just you don't have the time to set up a ui you don't
[3398.98 --> 3404.90]  want to write any html you just want to write what like write a blog post about something um then
[3404.90 --> 3412.04]  all that you have to do is clone down the repo run rake install run rake new posts and then give it a
[3412.04 --> 3418.54]  title and then boom you're off um and it's the coolest thing um it handles new posts new pages
[3418.54 --> 3426.44]  deployments um previewing generation all of that stuff um one of the key points as well is that it
[3426.44 --> 3432.16]  it has this one one task called rake isolate and one of the the points that you mentioned earlier
[3432.16 --> 3439.00]  about jekyll um is or i guess that we talked about at uh briefly um was this idea of incremental
[3439.00 --> 3445.00]  regeneration right now jekyll just says i'm gonna when you run jekyll generate or jekyll build rather
[3445.00 --> 3449.96]  it just takes your whole site and rebuilds it um and that's not that efficient um especially if
[3449.96 --> 3458.28]  it's the same in 98 of the files so um if you have a massive site maybe of like 1200 posts or something
[3458.28 --> 3463.80]  you've been writing for a long time um i know matt gemmel uses octopress and he has you know i think
[3463.80 --> 3468.08]  close to a thousand posts or he did you know a couple months ago um i'm sure he has over a thousand
[3468.08 --> 3474.00]  posts now um he's a great writer but it just took so long for those posts for that site to regenerate
[3474.00 --> 3479.46]  that he said you know i can't do this so um octopress gives him the tool called rake isolate which gets
[3479.46 --> 3486.18]  rid of all the posts except for the one that he's working on and basically just regenerates that one
[3486.18 --> 3492.22]  um the entire site but just with that one post so it removes the 999 other posts that he doesn't
[3492.22 --> 3497.36]  need to be looking at because he's not working on it right now um and then you um you run rake
[3497.36 --> 3502.00]  integrate and it puts all the posts back and then you run rake gen deploy and he deploys a whole new
[3502.00 --> 3506.34]  thing once it's once it's done so is that using git magic to do that or is that how's that working
[3506.34 --> 3512.70]  rake isolate um basically just takes it takes all the posts except for the one that you're working on
[3512.70 --> 3519.54]  moves it into a separate directory um that jekyll won't look at and then runs jekyll build or jekyll
[3519.54 --> 3523.68]  served depending on what you're doing so it all that it does is it just moves the files
[3523.68 --> 3528.38]  um and then moves it back when you run rake integrate right right it's it's it's an amazing
[3528.38 --> 3534.64]  idea um and it's such it's so so you know dead simple that it's surprising that that no one else
[3534.64 --> 3540.26]  has done it but that's sort of a unique piece to to octopress so octopress is sort of this framework
[3540.26 --> 3544.92]  that makes blogging with jekyll or writing sites with jekyll as easy as possible and gives you the
[3544.92 --> 3553.44]  the ui or the uh the site um uh theme and all this stuff to work with immediately did the projects
[3553.44 --> 3560.66]  so it's it's almost um even still now even after hearing that it's still hard to really see
[3560.66 --> 3567.32]  where they you know where they separate i understand that it's kind of built on top of
[3567.32 --> 3571.88]  jekyll but is it a point that they'll ever merge they'll ever share the same functionality
[3571.88 --> 3577.22]  or essentially tackle the same kinds of problems or is that the reason why you're involved in both
[3577.22 --> 3582.44]  projects kind of help keep them in parallel and keep them kind of working together well
[3582.44 --> 3588.38]  i'm definitely i'm definitely involved with both um in order to make sure that they're going along
[3588.38 --> 3593.82]  parallel in in parallel um i'm way more involved in jekyll just because jekyll has no i mean matt's
[3593.82 --> 3600.32]  working on it as well but matt's um matt's really busy so um i'm the one that's sort of taking care of
[3600.32 --> 3606.04]  of the immediate day-to-day sort of stuff with jekyll um and because no one else is doing that i'm sort
[3606.04 --> 3611.32]  of taking more of a back seat or more of an advisory role i guess um i look over pull requests that
[3611.32 --> 3619.62]  that brandon puts up on octopress repos um and helping with problems as needed um but in terms
[3619.62 --> 3625.80]  of the future there's definitely the possibility that they would merge um the octopress as we know
[3625.80 --> 3631.98]  it today would not be the octopress of tomorrow in any sense um brandon's doing amazing work um on
[3631.98 --> 3637.98]  the octopress organization on github and you can take a look at um where he's taking octopress and
[3637.98 --> 3642.96]  splitting it off into a gem and this gem is just about functionality it's just about sort of
[3642.96 --> 3650.06]  extending the basic jekyll generation stuff into um generating new posts based on like erb templates
[3650.06 --> 3655.80]  that sort of thing um and he also created something which i'm really excited about called octopress inc
[3655.80 --> 3662.92]  um and octopress inc is is an extension to jekyll that allows you to to write isolated themes
[3662.92 --> 3668.44]  so i have a gem for example called i don't know parker's site or parker's theme or something
[3668.44 --> 3674.22]  and i can publish that on ruby gems and you can say gem install parker's site or parker's theme or
[3674.22 --> 3679.68]  whatever and use and it uses octopress inc such that when jekyll says all right i'm going to go
[3679.68 --> 3686.06]  build this site um it uses the css the javascript that i've written um and it's it's all separate from
[3686.06 --> 3692.64]  my own content files so what octopress inc has done is basically taken the concept of wordpress themes
[3692.64 --> 3698.56]  where the theme and the content are completely separate um and applied that to static site
[3698.56 --> 3703.98]  generation as jekyll knows it so i'm sort of i'm sort of there to to make sure that everything's
[3703.98 --> 3708.62]  going along at the same time and to help with like the jekyll 2.0 major bump for example that's a
[3708.62 --> 3712.24]  fantastic teaser for an upcoming conversation i'm sure we'll have with brandon i know that
[3712.24 --> 3718.56]  i mean anytime we ever mention and i try to get brandon to share as much as he can but i know he's it's
[3718.56 --> 3723.26]  he's been so close to 3.0 for a while now and i know that a lot of the listeners and a lot of the
[3723.26 --> 3729.24]  readers of our weekly email and and the blog and anytime we publish any sort of teaser of the upcoming
[3729.24 --> 3734.06]  octopress 3.0 they're always like all over it you know everybody's like waiting with bated breath kind
[3734.06 --> 3738.84]  of so to speak so i'm sure that that was a perfect teaser for to tee it up for brandon when he comes on
[3738.84 --> 3745.58]  the on the show um i guess let's go ahead and tail off the call then i know there's probably
[3745.58 --> 3750.34]  i know you got things you got to do and we could talk probably for days but because you do a lot of
[3750.34 --> 3758.06]  cool stuff but let's let's um let's talk about the future of of jekyll let's tail into that and i think
[3758.06 --> 3762.98]  you kind of know where i'm going with it but where is jekyll going how does it align with github pages how
[3762.98 --> 3769.50]  does it align with github uh github pages api what can you tell us about uh not just jekyll 2.0 which
[3769.50 --> 3775.48]  came out early this month but the the future and beyond that's a really awesome question um the
[3775.48 --> 3783.04]  future of jekyll is is the simplest but also simultaneously most powerful static site generator
[3783.04 --> 3792.94]  that you can find um for for anyone um isolating isolating it from um the expectation that
[3792.94 --> 3800.56]  you must know ruby is is paramount to that objective um the jekyll of tomorrow is a jekyll that
[3800.56 --> 3808.20]  is is easy to install um is really easy to use um doesn't hopefully has as few bugs as possible
[3808.20 --> 3815.50]  if none or if not none rather um and and does the really amazing things like incremental regeneration
[3815.50 --> 3825.08]  and has themes um the way that octopress inc act price inc um displays them um and in order to get
[3825.08 --> 3831.72]  there we just need a lot more manpower um we just need people who are interested in in taking a stake
[3831.72 --> 3837.32]  in jekyll and saying this is a really cool project um let's make it what i want it to be um and when
[3837.32 --> 3842.54]  they hit a pain point to say yeah i could write a plug-in for this that monkey patches jekyll to the
[3842.54 --> 3847.86]  you know how i want it but why don't i take that change and contribute it upstream and see if
[3847.86 --> 3854.78]  they're interested um and to to sort of have that constant conversation with how am i using jekyll
[3854.78 --> 3860.82]  and how is jekyll right now um is sort of what's gonna what's gonna push jekyll forward that might uh
[3860.82 --> 3865.48]  that might lead us right into the call to arms i guess for for jekyll because one of the things we
[3865.48 --> 3871.54]  ask on this show is some some decent questions at the end that's our common questions i guess um but we
[3871.54 --> 3875.40]  always ask you know what's the call to arms how can the community step up and help out so maybe you
[3875.40 --> 3881.20]  kind of mentioned it but maybe you can kind of go a little deeper yeah so the the way that we would
[3881.20 --> 3886.26]  love for you to get involved is is to be involved in the conversation the issues there's an irc channel
[3886.26 --> 3895.22]  um pound jekyll there is um there's so much available um there's also a jekyll dash help repo um so if
[3895.22 --> 3900.54]  you're if you're if you find that you have an extra even 10 minutes a day to watch that repo and
[3900.54 --> 3905.76]  answer questions to help with the ecosystem or the the users who are are struggling with this or
[3905.76 --> 3911.48]  you know hey i installed jekyll but i can't seem to get this to work can you help me yeah sure let me
[3911.48 --> 3916.10]  just take a quick look at your repo most jekyll problems are diagnosable you know in five minutes
[3916.10 --> 3923.68]  um unless it's some crazy issue with you know your gem environment or something so um to be to be
[3923.68 --> 3930.08]  involved and to do what you can to um either contribute code um or contribute ideas just open
[3930.08 --> 3934.14]  an issue that's like hey this is a really cool idea that i had when i was just writing my site
[3934.14 --> 3939.60]  what do you think about it um and then we can discuss it um to you know involve your friends
[3939.60 --> 3945.24]  maybe uh if you have a if you have a pal who's also using jekyll or a colleague to have them you know
[3945.24 --> 3949.68]  get a github profile they don't already and contribute their ideas um to be part of the
[3949.68 --> 3954.48]  conversation um there's obviously no way that you're you're going to be involved if you aren't
[3954.48 --> 3959.30]  a part if you aren't a part of it but um it's relatively easy to just watch the repo i promise
[3959.30 --> 3967.84]  like maybe 12 to 15 notifications a day i try to stay uh busy but but not too overwhelming um
[3967.84 --> 3975.54]  so you know just sort of contribute where you want to where you can um of course triaging issues is
[3975.54 --> 3980.70]  super helpful but i handle every issue that comes through um so you're pretty active i was always
[3980.70 --> 3986.48]  when i was just kind of prepping for this conversation i was like wow you are on on the
[3986.48 --> 3992.38]  ball you know and not just like hey thanks you know like uh maybe a text expander or something like
[3992.38 --> 3996.90]  that or some sort of you know snippet that you kind of put in it's like you know you really look and
[3996.90 --> 4002.50]  you re-quote and you ask for clarification you kind of give more feedback you're you know i i really
[4002.50 --> 4006.52]  wonder when you say you know you do this in your free time like you must have a lot of free time so
[4006.52 --> 4012.56]  are you really going to school are you two people that kind of thing i've definitely slacked off on my
[4012.56 --> 4017.52]  on my classwork enough uh to to make sure that that the amount of time that i have on github is
[4017.52 --> 4024.30]  substantial so i will uh apologize to my professors on behalf of my time on jekyll um but that i mean it's
[4024.30 --> 4030.06]  taken a long time to to get there but um i find that if you if you're kind and if you're if you're
[4030.06 --> 4034.60]  you give constructive feedback then people will be kind in return and that's there's so much
[4034.60 --> 4040.06]  animosity in the open source open source uh community that to yell at people is not useful
[4040.06 --> 4044.72]  yeah um and it's it's sort of counterproductive to the idea of let's build something awesome together
[4044.72 --> 4049.32]  we've we've talked about that a little bit on the on the show before just kind of like the not so nice
[4049.32 --> 4055.30]  responses from people and just the attitudes because it i mean we talked about burnout on the show before
[4055.30 --> 4061.82]  with lee hambley and capistrano and some other projects that have come on and people who uh lead
[4061.82 --> 4067.06]  those projects have expressed just burnout and you can't always uh help your attitude sometimes you
[4067.06 --> 4072.18]  know let's maybe talk to you in two years and see if you feel the same way um but i mean it does it does
[4072.18 --> 4077.82]  happen um regarding the future of jekyll there's one question i i do have as a dovetail off of what you
[4077.82 --> 4083.86]  said before you said um you know you need more people you need more manpower so to say um
[4083.86 --> 4089.00]  how does that how does that play into github that's what i keep coming back to because
[4089.00 --> 4094.90]  it's obviously a part of pages they obviously have the money to employ people are they a part
[4094.90 --> 4099.40]  of these conversations to make sure that jekyll thrives and jekyll grows and jekyll is awesome
[4099.40 --> 4108.48]  they aren't as much i will say um they're at the moment it's sort of a uh in maintenance mode pages is
[4108.48 --> 4113.36]  i'm i'm certainly building new features um and making it you know as as great as i can
[4113.36 --> 4120.82]  um but there's they aren't building as many new features into into pages certainly um and what
[4120.82 --> 4126.92]  they what they primarily want is to see pages be something something that makes you know documentation
[4126.92 --> 4133.58]  really really great software documentation so if i if i'm bootstrap how can we make sure that
[4133.58 --> 4140.98]  jekyll and that pages are well suited to your um to your needs for that particular project
[4140.98 --> 4147.28]  so to make sure that that jekyll is as general as possible is sort of what um and not too complicated
[4147.28 --> 4152.72]  of course um is sort of what ben's been doing as a part of sort of as an acting entity of github
[4152.72 --> 4158.34]  and also in his own his own uh wishes he'd like to see something that's simple and easy to use
[4158.34 --> 4165.26]  rather than something that's super complicated um or super specific so they aren't they aren't that
[4165.26 --> 4171.12]  heavily uh involved in in jekyll but they've certainly supported me in huge ways um whether
[4171.12 --> 4178.88]  it's just like random boxes of goodies um or you know hey um we want this feature added to jekyll can
[4178.88 --> 4187.76]  you write it for us we'll pay you well um i guess the last question is a is a fun one that i think you
[4187.76 --> 4194.00]  may have touched on at least one hero right uh but who are your you know you can name one you can name a
[4194.00 --> 4198.40]  few it's we don't really have any sort of roles here but uh if you had to name some programming
[4198.40 --> 4206.56]  heroes who would they be um i definitely have a bunch um and they've i i'm i tend to take to heroes
[4206.56 --> 4212.62]  pretty quickly um because they're someone that i can look up to and and it sort of gives me a goal
[4212.62 --> 4219.18]  um to set so i'm starting off in in middle school when i was learning basic um the guy's name was dan
[4219.18 --> 4227.50]  lavoi um later it was nick rao um who now works at modcloth as a software engineer um really brilliant
[4227.50 --> 4232.10]  guy who he was the one who originally taught me how to use rails um and got me interested in ruby
[4232.10 --> 4238.00]  so he's the reason that i i know ruby at all um leaf walsh was a um an acquaintance in in high school
[4238.00 --> 4242.90]  who is just ridiculously brilliant um he got a joint degree at stony brook suny stony brook
[4242.90 --> 4248.60]  um in like theoretical mathematics and computer science um and then of course they're the you
[4248.60 --> 4256.10]  know they're the i guess more general or more normal uh answers of um people like tom um and
[4256.10 --> 4261.02]  chris wanstroth who wrote um and pj who wrote github initially and just sort of wrote it in their
[4261.02 --> 4267.50]  spare time um people like ben who are amazing product people but also or or sort of um product
[4267.50 --> 4274.40]  managers and can can develop vision um in addition to writing amazing code um and so and and people
[4274.40 --> 4281.92]  from my time at sex wonderkinder as well um um hans hasselberg um uh ryan levick um uh
[4281.92 --> 4288.56]  chus or joseph bach um he's a great guy and chad fowler as well um they're all like just amazing
[4288.56 --> 4296.70]  people that i've i have looked up to um and have tried to try to be more like yeah several uh in
[4296.70 --> 4303.62]  there i definitely share similar remarks but uh this has um this has been well i guess probably
[4303.62 --> 4307.40]  one of our longer shows in the last several shows i think we just kind of got on some riffs there and
[4307.40 --> 4313.24]  i want to pull you off and i'm glad that you were uh such a good trooper for the show parker so um
[4313.24 --> 4317.16]  thanks so much for having me i know we we wanted to get you on the show for a while and i'm just you
[4317.16 --> 4323.72]  know very excited about what you're doing so keep up the great work um however we can be of a support
[4323.72 --> 4330.30]  to you and to help uh to help you and matt kind of keep this project you know at the forefront and
[4330.30 --> 4335.90]  just knowing that it is the the next generation and the the way to be when it comes to uh static
[4335.90 --> 4340.14]  site generation and the future of it and you know octopress we hope to have brain on the show
[4340.14 --> 4345.12]  in the near future about that so i want to just you know you got our support however however we can
[4345.12 --> 4351.68]  give it so um great thank you so much uh same to you as we uh to close out the show i want to give
[4351.68 --> 4358.80]  another shout out to our awesome sponsors rackspace uh snapci and top towel uh for supporting the show
[4358.80 --> 4364.54]  they do an awesome job to help make sure we stay around as part of just helping uh parker do his
[4364.54 --> 4370.38]  awesome work and help him stay around so uh i also want to plug our new partner to div shot uh who's
[4370.38 --> 4376.66]  helping pave the way for really awesome static web hosting for developers uh and they're hosting jekyll too
[4376.66 --> 4380.36]  so we'll give you more information about that for the members and if you're not a member yet you
[4380.36 --> 4384.82]  should check it out but uh that's it for this week we'll be back next week and until then
[4384.82 --> 4388.48]  uh parker and i will say goodbye so bye-bye bye-bye
[4388.48 --> 4390.48]  you
[4410.36 --> 4420.48]  you
[4420.48 --> 4421.48]  you
[4421.48 --> 4423.48]  you
[4423.48 --> 4427.48]  you
[4427.48 --> 4429.48]  you