[0.00 --> 14.90] welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email [14.90 --> 20.74] covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com [20.74 --> 27.76] our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 121 [27.76 --> 34.18] we're joined today by lars bach and seth ladd just two of the awesome team members behind dart [34.18 --> 41.96] a new language and platform started by google for scalable web app engineering today's show is [41.96 --> 48.18] sponsored by our partner digital ocean fresh books and new relic we'll tell you a bit more about [48.18 --> 54.06] fresh books and new relic later in the show but digital ocean we owe our uptime to digital ocean [54.06 --> 58.46] we're hosted on digital ocean we are partnered with digital ocean we think that you should [58.46 --> 65.04] use digital ocean i mean that's that's that should be the spot right there right but it goes on uh [65.04 --> 71.68] it's super easy to use digital ocean literally in 55 seconds you got a server full root access ssh keys [71.68 --> 77.60] on the machine your choice of os at your fingertips it just doesn't get any easier than that it's [77.60 --> 83.68] affordable pricing plans start at five bucks a month you get half a gram 20 gigs of ssd drive space [83.68 --> 91.64] one cpu one terabyte transfer and it's blazing fast ssds and it's super easy to use use the promo [91.64 --> 98.92] code changelog may that's right changelog may to get a ten dollar credit when you sign up head to [98.92 --> 103.04] digital ocean.com to get started and now on to the show [103.04 --> 113.02] welcome back everybody we are joined today by lars bach and seth ladd lars is the co-founder a co-founder [113.02 --> 119.88] of dart and v8 and seth is a developer advocate for dart we're here today to talk about dart and [119.88 --> 125.90] what it is and all those good things so lars why don't you give us an introduction to who you are and [125.90 --> 132.70] where you come from i don't want to spend too much time but the sad story is i've been doing virtual [132.70 --> 139.84] machines for object oriented languages since 88 so there's been a few and you probably can remember [139.84 --> 148.20] some of them like hotspot i was a tech leader on hotspot i've done strong talk what else v8 is one [148.20 --> 157.44] and so lots of different virtual machines and and my game is making the the languages run fast and [157.44 --> 163.96] lately last three years i've been focusing on the new programming language start and it's basically sort [163.96 --> 171.12] of uh written is from the experience of implementing the ioscript so we can talk about the later yeah [171.12 --> 175.14] for sure so i i forgot to mention when i introduced you that you both are at google so i just wanted to [175.14 --> 181.28] make sure we make that clear that is true okay all right and seth why don't you give us an introduction [181.28 --> 187.20] about who you are and where you come from sure so i'm a developer advocate with the google developer [187.20 --> 193.36] team and for the past couple years i've been focused on dart and helping external and internal [193.36 --> 200.36] developers get online with our tools our language our libraries and help get the community excited [200.36 --> 207.62] and participating in this new project awesome so can can one of you give me a introduction to what [207.62 --> 211.46] dart is i think that you know a lot a lot of people have heard about it because it's not exactly [211.46 --> 216.28] you know brand new um but but but maybe there are some people out there that aren't really familiar [216.28 --> 221.42] with it and would like to know what it is oh i can take a stab at that we started the dart project [221.42 --> 227.04] three years ago and it's a platform so and it includes a new programming language for the web [227.04 --> 234.06] but it also has a libraries a consistent set of libraries and programming tools on top of that [234.06 --> 240.94] if you talk about the the language it's a a clean simple class-based object oriented languages [240.94 --> 247.94] language and it's more structured than javascript and we want really want to capture people that are [247.94 --> 253.76] interesting uh having structure in the programming language so they can easily do refactoring and [253.76 --> 262.86] build last a lot web applications awesome so one of the things about dart i think that um i've i've [262.86 --> 267.38] heard just kind of talking to people and and and actually like doing some of my own research is [267.38 --> 273.12] right now it seems like and this is kind of the main one of the main questions i want to kind of [273.12 --> 278.30] get to but right now it seems like one of the big goals of dart is to be able to compile it down to [278.30 --> 284.70] javascript but that doesn't feel like the end goal for dart so would you say that javascript or sorry [284.70 --> 290.30] that dart is is is going to be an evolution in in uh you know writing program programming for the web or [290.30 --> 294.26] is it going to be an option you know a la coffee script or something like that to compile down to [294.26 --> 301.08] javascript well first of all i have to say for us uh being compatible with the web is really important so [301.08 --> 307.80] one of our most important components is the dart to js compiler it translates the dart source code [307.80 --> 314.00] into javascript and ensures that you get the same semantic semantics as if you ran on top of the [314.00 --> 319.72] virtual machine of course we have a virtual machine as well and we have a special build of chromium [319.72 --> 328.64] we call dartium and it has that dart virtual machine built in and so we can run raw dart in that [328.64 --> 336.16] browser but yeah the compatibility with the web is super important for us so so do you think that's [336.16 --> 341.86] something if i guess the question is if you had to kind of pick like would compatibility with javascript [341.86 --> 346.08] be what you would rather would you rather every browser have the dart vm installed [346.08 --> 353.72] well first of all it's always great if people take all our code and include in the browser but [353.72 --> 358.68] i think the the point is what we're trying to do is we are we're trying to make sure that [358.68 --> 367.16] that if you only have a javascript engine in your browser you'll still run a dart fine but there's [367.16 --> 373.92] certainly advantages or we're running the dart vm inside the browser two of them is that it runs faster [373.92 --> 380.10] and secondly you have a fantastic startup experience because the application startup super fast [380.10 --> 386.16] i do want to draw a distinction though between dart and some of the other languages like coffee script so [386.16 --> 392.34] coffee script is designed to provide a new syntax on top of javascript but it still retains [392.34 --> 398.42] javascript semantics whereas dart is its own language so yes compiling a javascript is really [398.42 --> 403.18] important for the project in the web but we're as large was saying we're we're able to bring over the [403.18 --> 408.42] semantics from the dart language and libraries back down to javascript so it's not just syntactic like [408.42 --> 414.60] code of paint so yeah that's something that you know you'll see with like typescript and asm [414.60 --> 421.24] that that are more like you know just you know subsets or supersets of javascript but this is a new [421.24 --> 426.32] language but i i have a i mean maybe just in layman's like if you could explain to me the difference [426.32 --> 434.50] because uh if it compiles down to javascript then it seems like it while you know in the future i could [434.50 --> 440.08] envision a world where using dartium or any other browser with the dart vm uh has major advantages [440.08 --> 444.00] because you can write dart and run dart in the browser but as long as it's being used to compile [444.00 --> 449.10] down to javascript it i don't really necessarily see the the huge increases that you can get with the [449.10 --> 456.58] dart vm so well well um let me just uh stop you a little bit it's uh you get fast execution i guess [456.58 --> 463.56] that's a good thing but think about the development process when you change the line of code you can [463.56 --> 468.56] be up running right away instead of first translating to to javascript and run in a [468.56 --> 476.74] java engine if you have the dart vm inside the browser right you can do a debugging at the source level [476.74 --> 483.38] and you can do very interesting things that are based on the language that's hard to do when you [483.38 --> 489.54] first translate to javascript and want to provide the same kind of programming experience yeah so so i [489.54 --> 494.06] guess that's what i'm saying is that it seems like the major the major benefits of dart other than just [494.06 --> 498.38] you know the the language itself being a very clean language is like when you actually use it in its [498.38 --> 503.50] in the dart vm itself rather than compiling it to javascript i think one of the huge benefits of dart [503.50 --> 508.58] is the productivity which is sort of what lars is alluding to here and that as a developer and i'm [508.58 --> 515.14] being asked to deliver engaging wonderful experiences to my users on mobile devices that need to run 60 [515.14 --> 521.04] frames a second take advantage of all the html5 features and really take advantage of these new [521.04 --> 527.50] mobile devices i'm being asked to develop and deliver much more complex applications and when i have a [527.50 --> 533.10] much more complex world i need languages libraries and tools to help me compensate for that and do things [533.10 --> 539.38] like static analysis warnings refactoring all the great stuff that we've had for other platforms for [539.38 --> 544.70] years and years and years and to get i'm i'm basically being asked to do this on the web now today just [544.70 --> 548.98] because my users are asking for this and so the huge advantage of dart is i get that productive [548.98 --> 553.56] development experience yet still get the really fast iteration times of the web [553.56 --> 559.62] so so one thing i would like to mention about the language we haven't talked about what's in the [559.62 --> 567.82] language but one thing i find that's really great is the optional typing an optional static typing [567.82 --> 575.12] gives you that you can start programming without any types so when you do experimentation you can get up [575.12 --> 581.70] run very fast but as you write a library and you want to harden it you put in the types maybe on the [581.70 --> 587.44] interface to the library and you can make sure that if people want to use the library they can [587.44 --> 594.20] validate that you pass in the right kinds of objects to that interface and i think that that allows the [594.20 --> 599.94] programmer to to trust the library more instead of that if you don't have any types and you call a [599.94 --> 604.12] library and you get an error you basically have to debug a third-party code which is not easy [604.12 --> 610.06] yeah i think there are some really cool things about dart uh that the language itself which will [610.06 --> 616.78] we'll get into in in a in a little bit but uh the one thing that i think so okay so we we've talked a [616.78 --> 623.54] little bit about you know what's the the the major benefit of dart uh in its current form but what [623.54 --> 629.14] would you say where do you see dart in five years or in 10 years or in 15 years like where where do you [629.14 --> 636.70] want to see this project headed clearly we want to make sure that a lot of programmers will use it [636.70 --> 646.06] right now it's clear that web applications are becoming larger and larger and to control these big [646.06 --> 652.82] piles of source code i believe strongly that you need a better structure in the programming language [652.82 --> 659.26] and the way we handle libraries in dart will certainly help you the projects we have been [659.26 --> 666.76] supporting in dart they have all been saying that as soon as they uh get used to the new language which [666.76 --> 672.84] doesn't take very long they really really like uh the the typing and the tools so they can you can do [672.84 --> 678.34] refactoring that really counts when you build big applications and you have to maintain them over time [678.34 --> 685.00] yeah one of the the and this is kind of an aside here the fact that dart doesn't hoist variables i think [685.00 --> 690.68] makes it uh a lot easier to read like you know top to bottom than javascript just in general i mean [690.68 --> 696.32] that's like a a one little teeny feature of dart but like a major impact in readability when i've [696.32 --> 703.42] since i've noticed it so you asked uh what do we want to see in 5 10 15 years i'm extremely motivated [703.42 --> 712.00] to help the web continue to develop and deliver amazing experiences on mobile devices and so if anything [712.00 --> 716.90] we can do to help developers just naturally and organically continue to pick the web to deliver [716.90 --> 723.16] these really great experiences then i'm very happy i feel like at this point we need to give developers [723.16 --> 727.56] who are used to building on native platforms and who have very high expectations and tools and [727.56 --> 731.84] productivity i need to deliver that to developers when they want to target the web [731.84 --> 740.14] yeah so i think that that that's definitely a uh uh uh what's the what's the word a pretty broad [740.14 --> 744.40] goal right and i think that that's that there's nothing wrong with that i think that's a that's a [744.40 --> 751.64] that's a great goal but uh how do you how do you do that i mean i guess my question is i'm i'm trying to [751.64 --> 757.38] figure out a good way to word this but so in the 90s like you know javascript comes about and then all [757.38 --> 761.64] of a sudden today it's ubiquitous and it's everywhere and you can you know use it in any environment that [761.64 --> 766.48] basically a browser exists and and and now with node in cases of not the browser existing so [766.48 --> 771.92] like how does dart go from where it is now to becoming like a ubiquitous where you can use it [771.92 --> 778.80] anywhere well in the the first phase here it was very important to focus on the the web client and [778.80 --> 784.86] making sure that we can do web applications really well the next step is of course of course uh uh running [784.86 --> 790.04] on the uh the front end of the server so you can use the same programming language the same libraries [790.04 --> 797.62] in the client but also on the server side and with our last released uh release we we send out some [797.62 --> 803.44] more io code so you can actually run uh the the dart system on the server side so it's clear that [803.44 --> 809.10] if you can span from the client to the server it gives huge advantages to to the programmers [809.10 --> 819.96] yeah but again the uh what i would like to say that uh what's important to us is to make sure that [819.96 --> 827.86] we provide a very efficient uh programming platform and uh of course it's great to get more users but [827.86 --> 837.48] making sure that people can innovate faster uh is is a clear goal for us um i think um that is a [837.48 --> 841.46] different language and it's certainly not everybody that likes a new language for the web [841.46 --> 846.76] but deep down i think that innovation is what's going to make the web even better [846.76 --> 852.94] so it may be worth it to just talk about what is dart for a second because we we've talked a lot [852.94 --> 857.84] about the language a lot and i'm not sure many people know the full breadth or scope of the platform [857.84 --> 863.70] so real briefly it is its own language um and i'd love to hear lars talk a little bit about some of [863.70 --> 868.92] the influences to that but there's also a core set of libraries which i think is really missing from [868.92 --> 873.54] the web platform right now it's very hard to say like what kind of collection facilities do i have [873.54 --> 879.72] what do i have for dates and times what do i have for stopwatches debugging uh you name it uh so dart [879.72 --> 884.56] ships with a very rich core set of libraries it also has a package manager and inside the package [884.56 --> 893.36] manager you can go get libraries for crypto game uh game drivers um image processors you name it [893.36 --> 899.74] there's i think over 880 packages in our package repo right now we also ship uh an editor and [899.74 --> 905.94] plugins for other editors like sublime and webstorm and eclipse uh and then we have of course a dart to [905.94 --> 912.80] js compiler and we also have a great static analyzer which is speaks to that uh productivity aspect of dart [912.80 --> 921.12] where because dart is static and toolable i can run programs that tell me where i have warnings and errors [921.12 --> 926.66] before i run the program and that's such a huge productivity win so it's i really think of dart as a [926.66 --> 933.30] as a platform on which i can build so it's interesting because we actually had uh rob pike and andrew geron on [933.30 --> 940.44] the show to talk about goo or goo that's funny talk about go a while back but uh it feels kind of like [940.44 --> 946.94] you are taking the same like approach to dart as you as they are with go and that you know tooling and [946.94 --> 952.62] like productivity is a is a major major part of it it's not just a language that's you know that [952.62 --> 957.14] that's it's right it's not just the syntax that compiles the javascript it's its own language with [957.14 --> 963.54] its improved semantics uh better developer productivity and very toolable but i think the [963.54 --> 969.50] there are certainly big differences between uh go and dart yeah one thing i would like to highlight [969.50 --> 974.08] is that we have been very conservative when designing the language so if you have a background [974.08 --> 982.48] in java or c sharp or javascript it should be very easy to start being productive in dart i would say [982.48 --> 988.60] in a few hours you can probably understand most of the semantics of dart and that has been a goal [988.60 --> 995.24] from the beginning so that we can easily get programmers to be productive in our system yeah [995.24 --> 1003.72] so talking about uh a little bit about the community of dart here the is it similar as go [1003.72 --> 1008.42] where like it's an open language and that the kind of the whole world can see the changes that are made [1008.42 --> 1012.74] but you're you're hesitant to accept changes from the outside world as of right now anyway [1012.74 --> 1020.74] or on the contrary we want all the changes we can get so the so everything that relates to dart [1020.74 --> 1028.34] is out in the open uh even from day one uh all our chains let's go directly to the outside and and [1028.34 --> 1036.58] we are getting patches in from uh from external developers and we encourage that a lot it's of [1036.58 --> 1044.82] course clear it's clear that for some uh corner cases of the the advanced compiler not many people [1044.82 --> 1050.60] contribute uh but uh in in more light areas uh we get a lot of contribution uh especially when it [1050.60 --> 1057.28] comes to packages and and so on but on that note the language itself is now in the ecma [1057.28 --> 1064.48] spec uh process in fact there was some really good news there with the ecma group tc52 has been [1064.48 --> 1070.40] meeting to discuss the dart language spec itself and it looks great and it looks on track so what does [1070.40 --> 1073.98] that mean for dart when when if dart becomes standardized what does that what does that [1073.98 --> 1078.40] mean how does that change the game it basically means that there's an official process how the [1078.40 --> 1085.44] language is going to change in the future so we inside google cannot just decide um to change it [1085.44 --> 1091.08] and i think that's really important if we want to have other companies or organizations implement [1091.08 --> 1097.32] another version of the vm because then they can join the committee and make sure they have an [1097.32 --> 1103.80] influence in how the language is going to change in the future do you think that there's it's double [1103.80 --> 1108.96] yeah it's double important too when you're talking about building web languages and things that need [1108.96 --> 1115.10] to live in the open like the web ecosystem does so i think a lot of developers are just look for that [1115.10 --> 1121.22] to make sure that they can trust this is something that has legs and longevity let's pause the show [1121.22 --> 1125.66] for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors fresh books you know we use fresh books here at [1125.66 --> 1131.42] the change login i gotta i gotta say i'm probably logged into fresh books five ten times or more a [1131.42 --> 1139.64] day um either sending invoices reviewing invoices estimates uh receipts expenses all these different [1139.64 --> 1145.82] things we're doing and honestly it makes our life a breeze it it makes my life so much easier and it [1145.82 --> 1150.70] makes people that work with us their life so much easier because it's so easy to pay us it's so easy to [1150.70 --> 1157.72] to like collaborate on what's going on um around these parts of our business and it's just just [1157.72 --> 1162.22] love fresh books and i want you to love fresh books too if you're if you're out there and you're not [1162.22 --> 1169.70] using fresh books go try it out 60 day free trial we're giving away um to our listeners uh if you go [1169.70 --> 1175.96] to getfreshbooks.com and enter the change log in how did you hear about us uh when you sign up you'll get [1175.96 --> 1181.46] access to that 60 day free trial uh because they support five by five and the change law but [1181.46 --> 1186.30] tell me if this sounds like you we just came to this tax season and your life is probably a bit of [1186.30 --> 1189.94] a mess if you weren't using fresh books you're digging through invoices you're going through [1189.94 --> 1196.34] all your records one by one it's the worst no one wants to do that and that's why there's fresh books [1196.34 --> 1202.74] okay it's simple it's easy it's a cloud accounting solution that makes not only your taxes easy but [1202.74 --> 1209.20] your day-to-day business a breeze uh create professional invoices capture and track expenses [1209.20 --> 1215.38] get real-time business reports in just a few clicks all too easy the sooner you start using fresh books [1215.38 --> 1222.42] the sooner you can start focusing on the work you love focus on your work not your paperwork again go to [1222.42 --> 1230.18] uh go to this url getfreshbooks.com and enter the change log in the how did you hear about us section [1230.18 --> 1239.22] and you'll get access to that 60 day free trial from fresh books do it now do you think that uh [1239.22 --> 1244.46] the lack of standardization right now has prevented anyone from considering building a vm for dart other [1244.46 --> 1253.12] than google um we're still early in the process i would say um but the you cannot make a standard [1253.12 --> 1258.98] out of something that's moving uh fast so it's important that you have a basic design of the language [1258.98 --> 1266.28] and it's fairly stable before you standardize it so you need to be at a certain uh stage before you [1266.28 --> 1270.36] can start standardizing i think we are there now we haven't changed the language very much since we [1270.36 --> 1277.02] came out with one o in november uh so this is the right time to do it and uh we expect that the [1277.02 --> 1283.68] the current spec is will be ratified in in the ecma tc 52 here uh this summer [1283.68 --> 1289.24] that's pretty quick actually i feel like that just a few months to to have the spec ratified [1289.24 --> 1299.58] well we started the process um uh late last year so okay it's half a year so yeah so it's funny when [1299.58 --> 1303.84] we talked about i i felt like i had heard about dart much longer you said the project's only about three [1303.84 --> 1312.80] years old yeah a good three years yeah so when you say yeah i mean just i i just remember hearing [1312.80 --> 1316.96] about dart and i guess maybe i've made so many life changes in the last couple years that it seems [1316.96 --> 1322.14] like it's been a lot longer but but that's a pretty quick process in general to to start the language and [1322.14 --> 1327.34] get to a point now where we're talking about you know like like when you started dart three years ago [1327.34 --> 1332.28] was it something that it was an experiment or or did you did you kind of envision it being this [1332.28 --> 1341.84] here only three years in the future um well i hoped it would be at this point uh so but when you [1341.84 --> 1349.60] started it was not an experiment uh um like five years ago um i did an experiment with casper that [1349.60 --> 1356.50] where we spent one quarter do a dart like dart like language we did a vm and an implementation just [1356.50 --> 1362.74] to see how it would work on the web um and that looked pretty good so uh three years ago we got [1362.74 --> 1369.26] the the go ahead uh to do it but it was not an experiment we really wanted to change how you did [1369.26 --> 1375.94] uh web applications or you could there was an alternative to do web applications so uh i think [1375.94 --> 1381.10] we are on good track three years is not long for a new programming language and we're getting good [1381.10 --> 1386.48] traction the the interesting part is that people that actually have tried uh dart and developed [1386.48 --> 1393.18] some real code with it they are fairly happy and that's what makes me proud yeah i mean i would [1393.18 --> 1397.46] encourage anyone to just go to the website and and you can tell very quickly that this is not [1397.46 --> 1402.38] it's very different from javascript in a lot of senses but it's very easy to pick up and you can [1402.38 --> 1406.32] just kind of you can tell that that there's a lot of emphasis put in like you know if you're a web [1406.32 --> 1410.44] developer if you've built things for the web right now it's not a huge hurdle to be able to write [1410.44 --> 1416.80] dart and i think that's a major win uh for you guys for sure and uh just to to talk about the [1416.80 --> 1423.68] seriousness of the project we are working we really hard to have a very clear semantics that's documented [1423.68 --> 1428.48] with a language specification and making sure the implementations we have are conformant so [1428.48 --> 1436.54] um that's what we spend a lot of time on and also making sure that when we generate a javascript [1436.54 --> 1442.76] from dart we validate the resulting code it runs in the various modern browsers like internet explorer [1442.76 --> 1452.28] firefox safari and obron so i want to move on a little bit to the language itself and some of the [1452.28 --> 1455.66] design and the thought behind the language do you do you have anything else you want to say about [1455.66 --> 1457.86] just the motivation and the theory behind dart [1457.86 --> 1466.80] i'm just super happy being able to write in dart so i think it's really cool that i get to come to [1466.80 --> 1471.98] work and work on something that actually makes me happier to build for the web so that i feel like [1471.98 --> 1477.72] that's a win yeah for sure so let's talk a little bit about the language itself um can you kind of give [1477.72 --> 1483.86] me some i don't know like obviously there this is hard to summarize in a few you know sentences because [1483.86 --> 1487.86] i'm sure a lot of thought went behind this but but can you give me some some of the insight into [1487.86 --> 1491.50] like the thought behind the language and and what the process looked like to figure out you know the [1491.50 --> 1499.10] syntax of the language and all that well first of all we have to um to say that the only way to get [1499.10 --> 1504.64] a successful language is to to include curly braces so that was the first thing oh and semicolons [1504.64 --> 1512.30] and semicolons yes of course of course um and then secondly we uh we knew from the beginning that [1512.30 --> 1518.30] it had to be translated to javascript and that uh uh sort of was a challenge because some of the [1518.30 --> 1522.86] language feature we wanted to have into the language we could not put in because they would not translate [1522.86 --> 1528.86] to efficient javascript so the design process was uh sort of very iterative in in coming up with a [1528.86 --> 1534.22] feature that matched the language and then implement and see how it would look in in javascript one thing [1534.22 --> 1541.10] uh or a feature we didn't put in we wanted to have but we could not make efficient on top of javascript [1541.10 --> 1547.18] was non-local returns as you probably know from small talk it's a way to bail out from a recursive [1547.18 --> 1552.30] algorithm very quickly but in javascript you could only implement that by throwing exception [1552.30 --> 1557.66] and that was really slow on most implementations yeah yeah one thing that i found really fascinating [1557.66 --> 1563.18] when i talked to the co-founders and some of the other vm uh developers for dart is the difference in [1563.18 --> 1570.86] how how vm design impacted the language design so maybe lars like when you you helped build v8 and you [1570.86 --> 1575.98] you took the javascript language which is very flexible uh and but you but you ultimately made [1575.98 --> 1582.06] it very fast how did that experience help us design the dart language so that the implementations can be [1582.06 --> 1590.62] fast well javascript is very flexible uh if you try to access a property that's not there you return [1590.94 --> 1596.78] an undefined if you if you set a property that's not there you will expand the object with a new [1596.78 --> 1604.94] property and so in order to make a v8 fast we had to design for a sweet spot kind of application [1605.90 --> 1611.58] and the problem with that is that if you from the side create a new library and you poke at a few [1611.58 --> 1617.10] objects suddenly the application would be slow so one of the design goals of dart was also to make sure [1617.10 --> 1623.18] that we had an execution model that would be robust when it came to performance right so you can actually [1623.18 --> 1628.46] trust that if you had a performance library it will continue to be robust no matter how you used it [1629.90 --> 1636.46] so one of the impacts of that is dart has classes and the dart program is declared and then when the [1637.18 --> 1641.98] virtual machine you know scans it and then parses it and then compiles it that's the structure of the [1641.98 --> 1647.18] program and you can know that that is the structure so the vm can more quickly more easily and more [1647.18 --> 1653.42] efficiently optimize that program we basically borrowed the the the optic model from small talk [1654.70 --> 1661.02] so a very simple optic model where in a class you define the the fields you want to have for the [1661.02 --> 1669.34] instances and but you cannot expand it at one time so fields have to be declared and the same way if you [1669.34 --> 1678.30] have a non-global array and you access a fear an element outside the range you get an exception instead of [1678.30 --> 1684.94] expanding the array so it's more rigid than than small talk in some sense on the other hand you also [1684.94 --> 1691.18] you get notified if you do something wrong like in javascript if you do if you if you have a spelling error [1691.18 --> 1697.66] what happens is the program continues to run but it doesn't behave the right way in dart you'll be notified [1697.66 --> 1704.38] you try to access something that's not there so we talked a little bit about how flexible javascript [1704.38 --> 1709.98] is and that's a kind of a double-edged sword right like it's it's neat and it's nice because it allows [1709.98 --> 1715.34] me to do a lot but it also makes it very easy for like developers to make mistakes and in a lot of ways [1715.34 --> 1720.70] because well for a few reasons i would imagine right the first is obviously that uh in order to compile [1720.70 --> 1726.06] dart down to javascript like it's it's a lot easier when dart is more restrictive than javascript to be able [1726.06 --> 1731.02] to compile to javascript and the other way is it's a lot harder it seems like to make mistakes in dart [1731.02 --> 1735.34] in the classical way that that you can make mistakes in javascript can is it was that was that part of [1735.34 --> 1742.30] the thought process behind some of the restrictions in dart uh clearly because uh if we want to support [1742.30 --> 1748.54] programming in the lot right it's very important for a programmer that he can write a piece of code and be [1748.54 --> 1754.94] fairly certain that it will work against the other libraries in the project so certainly having having a [1754.94 --> 1761.98] tool chain that will check that the way you use the system is valid is important for big programs so [1761.98 --> 1769.58] that was part of the design criteria and also in javascript not only properties for normal [1771.02 --> 1777.10] fields can be added but you can also change the functionality as you go along at one time so for [1777.10 --> 1782.38] instance if you want to swap two functions in the library of javascript you can do that without [1783.18 --> 1788.46] getting notified but the program doesn't behave the right way in dart we have decided that the [1789.34 --> 1793.50] libraries are declared and class are declared that means that when you first stop running [1793.50 --> 1798.70] they will stay the same functional from the beginning of the program execution to the end and that also [1798.70 --> 1807.42] means that you'll not get a problem with conflicts in javascript you can have monkey patching and if two [1807.42 --> 1813.58] libraries that are monkey patching a core object you can get into a sort of interesting behavior [1815.82 --> 1821.42] so uh one thing i want to bring up just kind of as another little aside here you've you've mentioned [1821.42 --> 1825.18] what the first thing you mentioned was that uh obviously it had to have curly braces because you [1825.18 --> 1829.98] know it's impossible to have a successful language without them and you've talked a lot about the influence [1829.98 --> 1835.34] small talk the small talk had on dart uh one of my co-workers said he thinks it's reasonable [1835.34 --> 1839.26] to describe dart as small talk with curly braces totally before this show in the same way that [1839.26 --> 1844.70] javascript is you know scheme with curly braces uh how how do you feel about that statement that's a [1845.50 --> 1849.82] i'm honored if if that's a statement because small talk is one of these languages that are [1850.86 --> 1855.98] very minimal and elegant uh so if he thinks we are close to that i'm very happy [1857.50 --> 1864.14] we try to have a very simple execution model we think that if you have a simple execution model it's much [1864.14 --> 1869.10] easier for the programmer to understand what's going on when he runs the program for instance if you go [1869.10 --> 1874.14] into a debugger and do a single step we want the people to be fully aware of what's going on [1875.50 --> 1881.82] and by having simple semantics like you mentioned before that that variables are staying in the scopes [1881.82 --> 1888.46] that are cleared in like we have a clean lexical scoping it's much easier to understand what's going on in [1888.46 --> 1898.38] in these cases and we think this is a the more comfortable the programmer is with the execution of [1898.38 --> 1903.66] a program the more experimentation he does and the more innovation and i think that makes him a better [1903.66 --> 1908.94] programmer or her a better programmer yeah it's almost like the flexibility of javascript in some [1908.94 --> 1916.38] ways can prevent you from from being too um uh too experimental because you're afraid of what of the [1916.38 --> 1920.86] unknown consequences right like with dart you know exactly what you're going to get uh it's very [1920.86 --> 1924.86] predictable and so it's it's a little bit easier to like try and experiment without worrying about [1924.86 --> 1929.26] you know impacting the rest of the large project you're working on so the other flip side oh go [1929.26 --> 1935.90] ahead lars i just one short comment before seth um so um i've used a many different programming [1935.90 --> 1942.14] languages but one thing that's interesting with dart is that i get the same feeling as when i program in [1942.14 --> 1948.46] small talk in the old days you want to make the program better so often you you write your class [1948.46 --> 1954.06] and you start experimenting with it making it smaller and denser and better that feeling as a programmer [1954.06 --> 1959.42] is very powerful it makes you make the program look good and it also makes it more robust going forward [1961.26 --> 1966.30] so you mentioned experimenting and maybe like features of language make it easier or harder this is [1966.30 --> 1971.58] something i think dart's done pretty well at least at least for me and i think it's really critical for a [1971.58 --> 1976.38] language of the web that is when you start a web project you might have a very small little script [1976.38 --> 1981.02] you know no type annotations probably just some functions and then you hit reload in your browser [1981.02 --> 1984.30] and then you see it you see it pop up right there you're like wow that was really cool and then you [1984.30 --> 1988.86] might add another couple functions and you hit reload you wow and before you know it you're actually [1988.86 --> 1994.30] experimenting and trying out the platform you're building up a mini little app and dart allows you to [1994.30 --> 2000.22] start way at that beginning where you just have some functions and reload but it helps you grow over time [2000.22 --> 2005.34] and scale up to when you're actually ready to add some classes and then you're ready to add maybe a [2005.34 --> 2010.62] library and then you maybe you're ready to add type annotations and so from an experimenting point of [2010.62 --> 2017.10] view i actually find dart easier because i can start as early as i want in that kind of scope or scale but i [2017.10 --> 2021.98] can keep going and keep going and keep going and i don't sort of collapse under my own weight and also due to [2021.98 --> 2029.58] that structure of things like classes and libraries and ultimately packages and interfaces and that you [2029.58 --> 2036.54] know all that great stuff um the experimenting of becomes even easier in the ecosystem because i can [2036.54 --> 2041.50] build on top of the structure other people build and so i don't need to put something out into the [2041.50 --> 2046.06] community and hope it doesn't monkey patch and sort of step over somebody else's stuff for so for [2046.06 --> 2053.66] experimenting i actually think dart is really really productive awesome yeah true let me ask you a [2053.66 --> 2058.62] question here i'm just reading through one of your faqs which by the way if you are listening to this [2058.62 --> 2063.74] show and you have any interest in dart whatsoever go to the website and just like read through the faqs [2063.74 --> 2067.74] and the and the different things about the language it's a it's a this is one of the best things i think [2067.74 --> 2074.62] dart has done so this is our bullet plate for the show i think i mean this this uh faqs list yeah i mean [2074.62 --> 2080.14] it's incredible reading through this and just being able to uh to easily see kind of the evolution of [2080.14 --> 2085.10] the language as well as like the the the differences but one of the things that i'm looking for and i [2085.10 --> 2088.70] haven't really been able to find because these have to exist right there there has to be some sort [2088.70 --> 2093.18] of gotchas for for javascript developers that are coming to dart it can't just be all you know like [2093.18 --> 2099.02] butterflies and flowers like there has to be something here that's like if you typically do uh this in [2099.02 --> 2103.50] javascript this will catch you up here do you know of any kind of common pitfalls or gotchas that that [2103.50 --> 2109.42] javascript developers might experience coming to dart well it's clear that we don't we don't we don't [2109.42 --> 2116.22] have eval so if if you are big on uh getting text strings converted into code and execute on the fly [2116.70 --> 2122.22] i think it's a problem in dart because we have decided to make it much more structured for various [2122.22 --> 2130.14] reasons and so that's certainly something you have to get used to but other than that yeah there [2130.14 --> 2135.26] doesn't seem to be a bunch which seems like uh like a pretty awesome thing but it you wonder if [2135.26 --> 2140.06] there is there a catch you know what i mean well we've run numerous hackathons internally to the [2140.06 --> 2146.86] company externally the company we had a recent global dart flight school program which we ran and uh so i've [2146.86 --> 2152.14] seen it numerous times people are up and running in dart in about an hour and they come from all different [2152.14 --> 2158.46] backgrounds and this is one of the reasons i really uh really like this project is because it it is so [2158.46 --> 2163.26] approachable i've seen high school students um some of their first programming experience in these [2163.26 --> 2168.38] hackathons have a web page built and i've seen people with years and years of java years and years [2168.38 --> 2174.30] of action script years and years of javascript all all get up and running so uh at least in my experience [2174.30 --> 2179.42] it's it's very approachable and familiar and there's not really a lot of those gotchas based on your [2179.42 --> 2185.42] other language because job um because dart says okay we've learned a lot of great lessons we're making this a [2185.42 --> 2191.26] a familiar approachable experience so let me let me ask you that one of the what i believe is [2191.26 --> 2196.38] probably the best lesson that uh dart learned and and i mean wow looking at the kind of the [2196.38 --> 2202.62] implementation here is like querying the dom and you know anyone anyone who was around before jquery [2202.62 --> 2207.42] knows like querying the dom in javascript was an absolute nightmare and then when jquery came along [2207.42 --> 2211.26] you're like oh wow i can query it based on these selectors and it's like so much easier and everything [2211.26 --> 2216.78] makes sense and i look at the dart you know how dart queries it on there's there's two succinct [2216.78 --> 2221.82] methods to query the dom and that's all you have to worry about oh it gets even better uh what is [2221.82 --> 2228.06] returned to you are actual iterables uh and so you no longer have like array like things or arrays [2228.86 --> 2234.62] because of that rich core library that we have that you get out of the box with dart you've got lists [2234.62 --> 2240.38] and arrays and sets and maps and iterables and once you have that core library then the other [2240.38 --> 2244.94] libraries like the html library get to use those as well so if you know dart programming [2244.94 --> 2250.38] then you know web programming so i don't even know if people are going to be able to function [2250.38 --> 2255.82] knowing that i mean when i start building something for the web like step one is get all your javascript [2255.82 --> 2259.50] requirements and one of those is jquery like how are people going to even know how to get started [2259.50 --> 2262.70] without having to go out and download the latest production build of jquery [2262.70 --> 2272.14] i guess we could yeah i guess skip that step yeah i'm not embarrassed that it's too easy [2274.70 --> 2283.58] so i think we should we should mention again that that dart has a very comprehensive basic library [2284.06 --> 2291.26] that's very cool we have for asynchronous programming you have futures and streams and that's a very [2291.26 --> 2298.06] consistent way of doing asynchronous programming and we have all these collection types that really fit [2298.06 --> 2305.74] well together so i think if people are used to a programming language where you have a a good self [2305.74 --> 2312.70] libraries like if you come from java or c sharp that is actually very interesting to look at for web [2312.70 --> 2318.70] programming and and because of the fact that yeah these futures which are sort of like promises in a sense [2318.70 --> 2325.34] and javascript are baked into the core platform all the other packages out in the dart ecosystem use [2325.34 --> 2331.42] all these same core primitives so there's no more like which one of these do i use just everyone uses [2331.42 --> 2336.46] futures for the one-shot callbacks and streams for the repeating callbacks and it just propagates the [2336.46 --> 2341.58] ecosystem and it's just another one of those decision points that the community doesn't have to debate and [2341.58 --> 2346.62] developers don't need to reinvent so everyone can kind of take a step up in terms of what they get to work [2346.62 --> 2350.46] on and contribute back and it's just it's helped everyone be so much more productive [2352.38 --> 2357.42] let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors new relic if you've got a web [2357.42 --> 2363.90] or mobile application you need to know about new relic it's your new best friend basically it's your easy to use [2364.30 --> 2371.58] analytics dashboard that basically gives you powerful code level visibility into the real-time performance of your application so [2371.58 --> 2378.70] this means that you can spot bugs see bottlenecks and fix problems fast hopefully before they even affect your users [2379.18 --> 2384.38] and thanks new relic you no longer have to ship your app to production and then helplessly wait around [2384.38 --> 2390.54] hoping for the best until negative app reviews and tweets start to roll in new relic empowers you to [2391.10 --> 2397.26] to see what's going on and what's what is working and what isn't working all around time and the way it works is really straightforward [2397.26 --> 2403.74] they give you a lightweight agent that you unpackage into your production level apps that agent sits around [2403.74 --> 2409.50] quietly and securely in the background kind of gathering real-time metrics across geographies devices [2409.50 --> 2416.22] platforms all the way down to the end user level and then displays all that data in real-time graphs [2416.22 --> 2422.06] so coders can have the visibility they need into the performance of their web applications and make everything awesome [2422.06 --> 2427.74] awesome so go and check out new relic today by visiting new relic.com slash the changelog to learn more [2427.74 --> 2435.02] and use the offer code the changelog and take advantage of this special 30-day extended free pro trial [2436.06 --> 2440.86] available exclusively to our listeners new relic.com slash the changelog [2442.62 --> 2447.34] so i think there are like some obvious questions that people will probably have one of them is is um [2447.98 --> 2451.90] what does google use dart on right now that that you can kind of share with us [2454.14 --> 2461.10] sure uh we have an internal sales tool that uh this this is a great story um it's sort of sort of like [2461.10 --> 2465.66] the widow maker project in a sense that they've tried to re rebuild this system a bunch of times and you [2465.66 --> 2470.70] know legacy software right there's a bunch of decisions made and um and they try to rebuild rebuild it and then [2470.70 --> 2479.82] uh recently uh they they did a full rewrite in dart and angular dart and delivered the project on time [2479.82 --> 2486.38] and blew away everyone's expectations and now that's a successful deployment we also have other apps like [2486.38 --> 2491.98] google elections has a really neat app to help track elections around the world and numerous other [2491.98 --> 2498.22] internal tools that we're not quite ready to to share yet but there's a page on our site called who uses dart [2498.22 --> 2504.86] that references some internal and a bunch external as well awesome so there are so there are some [2504.86 --> 2509.42] external uh can you kind of kind of allude to some of those that that without having to go to the site [2509.42 --> 2514.70] here oh sure so uh one of my favorite is this company called soundtrap and what i really like [2514.70 --> 2519.58] about them is not only do they use dart but they also use some of the really cool new html5 features [2519.58 --> 2526.94] like web rtc which is real-time collaborative communication and some of the media stuff like get user media [2526.94 --> 2534.22] and audio and video so they built a collaborative music authoring uh app with dart and web rtc so it's [2534.22 --> 2541.66] such a cool thing another great story is a startup called blossom and i like i like their story because [2541.66 --> 2549.66] they were originally on javascript and uh let's see backbone and they over time gradually their users [2549.66 --> 2554.46] didn't even know it started swapping out some of their components for dart components and so that that [2554.46 --> 2558.38] was really cool to show that yes you can take an existing javascript app and if you like what dart [2558.38 --> 2565.66] has to offer you don't need to rewrite the whole thing you can do it piecemeal awesome so yeah i mean [2566.86 --> 2571.10] yeah i don't have much to say to that other than the fact that this is obviously something that is [2571.10 --> 2576.94] going to continue going in that direction and i think that that's a that's a good thing so just to [2576.94 --> 2583.18] even though we are from google and our only objective with this project here is to make people more [2583.18 --> 2590.30] efficient at doing web applications so everything is open and we are very receptive to to feedback so [2590.30 --> 2596.38] we can make it better so if people are trying it out and they have problems in an area we would like [2596.38 --> 2602.06] to hear the feedback so we can make the system solve that problem one thing i notice here is that [2602.86 --> 2609.10] similar to go uh you don't actually see any google brands on the dart website that's obviously a uh [2609.10 --> 2616.30] uh on purpose correct that's right it's an open source project it's for the web the spec itself [2616.30 --> 2622.94] is in the ecma process now um it's it's no secret that googlers work on the project but like a lot of [2622.94 --> 2630.78] other successful projects for the web it really is for and of the community so the the million dollar [2630.78 --> 2636.30] question and and we kind of talked about this a little bit before um but but how do you know that you've [2636.30 --> 2641.74] for lack of a better term how do you know that you've won with dart like when do you feel like [2641.74 --> 2648.86] okay you've gotten to a point where dart is is here to stay when every developer is building for the [2648.86 --> 2655.02] modern web on mobile devices and uh i don't think we can get there without something toolable and [2655.02 --> 2665.18] productive like dart yeah so um yeah that's a good answer but this the um so it bottoms out to that [2665.18 --> 2672.30] uh we will continue to innovate to make sure the web uh the web platform gets better and better over [2672.30 --> 2677.58] time uh getting success with the programming language is is hard because people have to like [2677.58 --> 2683.34] it they have to like the feel of it when they type in the code at this point it looks really good the [2683.34 --> 2689.34] projects we've seen working working with dart they like it and it's growing right now the community both [2689.34 --> 2696.30] inside our company and also outside so we have been around we've been working on this for three years [2696.30 --> 2704.54] success uh is coming i think it looks pretty good if we have the same uh growth over the next two years [2705.10 --> 2712.14] i would be really really happy because just having the competition going means that even other web [2712.14 --> 2717.18] programming language they will might learn something from what we did in dart and that will lift the whole [2717.18 --> 2723.34] industry hopefully so it's certainly an idea that we can we can make everything better not only the [2723.34 --> 2729.58] dart system yeah you get the feeling that that one of the goals of dart is not just to like catch up [2729.58 --> 2734.14] and be where web programming is now but but one of the goals of dart is to move web development forward [2734.14 --> 2738.54] and i think that's that's a pretty good and you know ambitious but but also one that's necessary [2738.54 --> 2744.06] here i don't know if we should go back and talk about v8 but that's sort of the same with the v8 project [2744.06 --> 2750.14] uh when we started out uh there was not a lot of javascript code being executed because it was very [2750.14 --> 2757.42] slow and and you basically have to have look into the future and figure out what do people want in the [2757.42 --> 2764.62] future when it comes to executing javascript and we decided that the more speed you have the more [2764.62 --> 2771.18] innovation the application developers would go for and that's also what happened and in the process [2771.18 --> 2779.42] all the other browsers got fast javascript engines as well and i think that's great yeah [2780.30 --> 2785.98] that's that's one of the things about um i don't know about javascript about the current state of [2785.98 --> 2790.06] browsers right now is you'll see these ships of browsers and it'll be like you know some javascript [2790.06 --> 2796.06] uh efficiency some some performance increase but but that kind of almost feels like it's plateauing to [2796.06 --> 2800.94] a to a degree where like the the major like you said the the the benefits you got when like v8 started [2800.94 --> 2805.50] coming and things like that were like were much bigger gains than the ones you're seeing right now [2805.50 --> 2811.42] um does dart follow that same trend or or you know obviously dart is young so there's a lot of [2811.42 --> 2816.46] performance increase to come in the future but but you're not plateauing now or there are from ship [2816.46 --> 2822.54] to ship are they are they major efficiency increases that you're seeing that is getting faster and faster with [2822.54 --> 2830.38] each release uh we're doing and we are focusing on it and uh because start is more structured than [2830.38 --> 2836.94] uh then as we mentioned with javascript uh you would see that over time that uh dart will get the same [2836.94 --> 2847.42] kind of performance as uh as java basically except for if you're doing a hardcore um double computation [2847.42 --> 2853.66] uh yeah but that's not our goal but for ordinary uh object-oriented programs we should approach that [2853.66 --> 2860.46] kind of speed so we're aiming high uh but you'll see performance improvements over at least the next few [2860.46 --> 2869.50] years uh yeah no no plateauing in sight yeah you heard it here first we're going to have a web development [2869.50 --> 2877.10] that is as fast as system programming that's a good thing so speaking about performance the the last [2877.10 --> 2881.98] release we had 1.3 really focused on server-side performance one of the questions we get all the [2881.98 --> 2887.18] time is is there a node for dart i think developers like what they see but they know they have to write [2887.18 --> 2891.34] some server code and client code and so they want to know can they do dart on the server and so the [2891.34 --> 2897.98] answer is a resounding definitely uh we the virtual machine runs on the command line uh just like you [2897.98 --> 2904.38] know ruby or python or or v8 and you can get access to files and directories sockets there's a built-in [2904.38 --> 2909.82] web server built-in web sockets ssl and we've recently turned our performance attention over [2909.82 --> 2915.74] to the server side story as well so the story is looking really good awesome oh yeah we since it's [2915.74 --> 2921.18] a language project we also have to say that our internal tools are mostly written in dart so the [2921.18 --> 2929.50] dart to js compiler is of course written in dart and also the analyzer nice so for people that are just [2929.50 --> 2934.46] getting started what's the what's the recommended way to to to do just that to get started with dart [2935.34 --> 2943.74] on the website uh there is a one hour code lab uh called try dart and uh you build up your pirate name [2944.62 --> 2948.78] but it's really great it walks you through the features of the the language it walks you through [2948.78 --> 2952.86] some web programming and yeah just about an hour you're gonna have a working dart app [2952.86 --> 2962.78] so the website is dartlang.org okay awesome i think obviously i mean it's an entire ecosystem [2962.78 --> 2967.50] it's not just a language we can sit here and talk about it for for a long time and and i would love to [2967.50 --> 2972.22] uh to do just that but we try and keep the show down to about an hour so i i have a feeling that this [2972.22 --> 2976.54] is going to be one that we're going to want to to have another show on in the future to see where it goes [2976.54 --> 2981.34] um but but for now i want to give you guys an opportunity anything else that you want to kind of [2981.34 --> 2984.46] to mention about dart for for the people to hear before we move on [2987.98 --> 2994.70] well the uh we hope that people try it out and give us their opinion and and hopefully it's a good [2994.70 --> 3003.10] one um that's pretty much it we'll continue to work hard on making it better over time um so that's [3003.10 --> 3009.18] pretty much it i think it's it's very hard to convince people to use another language over the radio [3009.18 --> 3014.22] uh people have to try it out and have to feel the program is to figure out if something they can be [3014.22 --> 3020.94] productive in so it's a very personal uh kind of decision what's the recommended way to to give [3020.94 --> 3029.02] feedback is it through the uh the mailing list or you can file a file an issue uh on the issue tracker or [3029.02 --> 3036.46] you can send an email to to the mailing list that'll be answered i'd love to ask all developers who are [3036.46 --> 3043.26] interested in dart to go check out pub.dartlang.org that's our hosting site for packages and you'll [3043.26 --> 3048.38] find a tons of great stuff in there from the community um and when when you're building for the [3048.38 --> 3053.82] web don't forget that uh the trends are very clear that everyone's moving to mobile i know i sound like a [3053.82 --> 3060.14] broken record here but if uh if i have to tell anyone anything it's um develop and test on mobile [3060.14 --> 3064.38] phones and tablets for your great web stuff because that's where your users are and and we think dark [3064.38 --> 3071.02] can help you do that awesome so okay great so we we ask our uh our guests the same uh set of questions [3071.02 --> 3075.10] at the end of every show and i want to go ahead and ask you all these questions so i'll ask lars first [3075.10 --> 3079.18] and and you kind of both answered this first one already but and just in case there's anything else [3079.18 --> 3086.54] uh do you have like a call to arms for the community um yes my call to arms is that innovation [3086.54 --> 3091.34] is important and programmers have to be flexible and try out new stuff to see if they're more [3091.34 --> 3096.78] efficient using a different platform there than they used in the past so try out that and and [3097.66 --> 3103.50] see if it's more efficient and set anything from you other than uh building mobile stuff i'll be [3103.50 --> 3109.10] really specific about it in dev tools you can turn on mobile emulation so my call to arms is [3109.10 --> 3113.74] when you develop on your desktop and you're you're in chrome or dev tools turn on mobile emulation [3113.74 --> 3118.38] and just always live with that uh that little window there gotcha [3120.46 --> 3125.98] the second question here is um if you weren't doing this what would you be doing and i'll ask you first [3125.98 --> 3133.18] seth uh probably doing something around education or teaching i'm really inspired by the uh the mooc the [3133.18 --> 3137.42] the online classes and courseware stuff and so i don't know i think i think that'd be pretty interesting [3137.42 --> 3145.26] gotcha and for you lars oh i need more spare time i am i would travel the world uh on a bike [3146.22 --> 3148.62] um well you can only travel part of the world on a bike [3150.70 --> 3150.78] yeah [3150.78 --> 3159.02] but i think i get on a plane at some point or a boat that that is true but uh half a year on the bike [3159.02 --> 3164.86] would be great for me uh but i always have so i've tried it before and it never works so [3164.86 --> 3170.94] um i would say if i don't do that i would probably do another language or vm project nice [3172.94 --> 3178.06] and lars um for a programmer hero or just somebody that's been hugely influential in your life [3179.26 --> 3185.90] oh i have to mention my old professor ole lehmann masson uh he was the uh co-designer of the beta [3185.90 --> 3193.50] programming language a successor to similar 67 if you remember that uh he's been very inspirational in [3193.50 --> 3197.90] pushing me to do languages and and virtual machine implementation all the way back in the [3198.78 --> 3205.82] mid 80s so that's he's probably the main reason why i'm um doing it still that's awesome and seth [3206.70 --> 3212.46] i gotta say uh neil degrasse tyson the scientist and educator is just really inspiring to me because [3212.46 --> 3218.46] that's someone who clearly knows what he's doing and talking about but is so passionate and inspirational [3218.46 --> 3224.06] with how he delivers that stuff to to the world so i really enjoy watching him i've actually been [3224.06 --> 3228.86] waiting for the day for somebody to mention him as their hero because he's he's uh he's been a [3228.86 --> 3233.58] personal hero for many that i've known and he's with the new show recently obviously it's really good [3233.58 --> 3238.30] so people are really enjoying his method of teaching kind of comes from his own predecessor too [3238.30 --> 3250.06] yeah nobody said anything to that no no love for adam no love for adam i've been listening to this [3250.06 --> 3253.66] show i mean this is one of those shows where i wanted to kind of jump in but i feel like i don't [3253.66 --> 3258.70] add a ton i wanted to kind of dig in a bit more about the pub package manager but uh we can save that [3258.70 --> 3265.18] for a different show i'm sure yeah yeah so anything else you guys want to mention here before we go ahead [3265.18 --> 3273.02] and close out the show uh just thanks for inviting us um we need to to get everybody to listen in on [3273.02 --> 3278.70] what that is all about so um we are just happy to be here yeah i really appreciate the opportunity i [3278.70 --> 3284.38] remember uh the changelog is always one of those podcasts that is on the top of my queue and for a [3284.38 --> 3289.74] long time now so it's it's kind of an honor to be on the show so thanks well it's an honor to have [3289.74 --> 3294.78] you guys so what so i just wanted to absolutely yeah so i wanted to once again just say thanks to [3294.78 --> 3300.38] lars and seth for joining us on today's show like like we kind of kind of alluded to uh dart is a [3300.38 --> 3307.18] is a big project and um it's hard to to do any project the size of dart you know justice in a 45 [3307.18 --> 3312.46] minute to an hour radio show uh so i just want to encourage just like they were saying to encourage [3312.46 --> 3316.78] anyone if you're interested in this whatsoever just head over to the website it's it speaks for [3316.78 --> 3321.26] itself and it's something that uh you can just start hacking on in your own time and and really i mean [3321.26 --> 3326.46] just with the small amount of time i've spent on it just to kind of learn it and stuff it's been a uh [3326.46 --> 3331.18] it's been a pleasant experience something worth checking out worth hacking on i think it's uh [3331.18 --> 3336.54] definitely something we will want to consider uh talking about more on this show in the future but [3336.54 --> 3341.58] uh once again i just wanted to say thanks a bunch for joining us and and that's it for this week uh [3342.22 --> 3347.26] just for the listeners if you have not subscribed to the changelog weekly it is our weekly email where we [3347.26 --> 3353.02] share everything that hits our open source radar you can subscribe at the changelog.com weekly [3353.98 --> 3360.70] and um we will be back next week i don't think we know the uh guest yet adam so we will save that as [3360.70 --> 3366.46] a super the guest is still pending yes you're right yeah yeah so until next week though let's say goodbye [3367.02 --> 3368.54] all right bye-bye thank you [3377.26 --> 3383.58] you