[0.00 --> 14.78] welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode [14.78 --> 21.62] number 128 jared and i talked to justin saros about his work on lyman js building javascript [21.62 --> 27.64] apps and much more today's show is sponsored by code ship pager duty and harry's we'll tell you [27.64 --> 33.38] a bit more about pager duty and harry's later in the show but our friends at code ship they're rock [33.38 --> 38.72] solid hosted continuous deployment service that just works you can easily get set up with continuous [38.72 --> 43.92] integration for your app in just a few steps and automatically deploy when all your tests pass [43.92 --> 49.62] code ship has great support for lots of languages test frameworks as well as notification services [49.62 --> 55.06] they easily integrate with github or bitbucket and can deploy to cloud services like roku [55.06 --> 62.56] aws nojitsu google app engine and even your own servers setup is easy takes just three minutes [62.56 --> 68.68] get started today with their free plan and make sure you use our code the changelog podcast again [68.68 --> 75.10] that's the changelog podcast when you use that you're gonna get a 20 discount for three months [75.10 --> 82.60] on any plan you choose head to coach ship.io and tell them the changelog sent you and now on to the show [82.60 --> 89.74] welcome back everyone we got a fun show lineup today today is friday august 1st we're actually [89.74 --> 94.96] broadcasting this show in particular live on five by five we don't always broadcast live but today is [94.96 --> 99.96] it's just one of those days we got to broadcast live so um i'm adam stikowiak i'm joined by [99.96 --> 107.72] jared santo our managing editor so jared say hello hello hello and we also have our our guest today on [107.72 --> 113.14] the show justin serrells justin how are you i'm doing fantastically well thank you fantastically [113.14 --> 118.92] well what makes you fantastically well um i am just really excited to have gotten over the hump on [118.92 --> 124.32] a dozen really annoying things that were on my plate this week after a two-week vacation [124.32 --> 129.14] wow yeah i saw on twitter you said you made it to friday and you were celebrating [129.14 --> 135.34] yep i celebrate every friday yes fridays are good days that we we had our sprints on friday we [135.34 --> 141.06] started going to one week sprints so fridays are good days is that working better were you doing [141.06 --> 147.84] two weeks previously we were yeah we i think the the shortness and the just a fast pace of of one [147.84 --> 153.58] week and it helps us bite-size things better gives us quicker iterations it's really helped us out a lot [153.58 --> 158.30] um helps our planning process i don't know just it seems like we just get through that quicker and we [158.30 --> 162.92] give ourselves breaks you know once a month we'll give ourselves like a a week to kind of catch up [162.92 --> 168.40] and you know three weeks on one week off kind of thing so that's cool man it's been cool yeah a [168.40 --> 176.38] little sidetrack there dev talk well justin we have you on the show uh we were uh to talk about linemen [176.38 --> 183.20] js amongst other things you've kind of been uh maybe a prolific would be the word uh open source [183.20 --> 189.76] contributor um i first found you i think uh because of some of your work with uh jasmine and [189.76 --> 193.72] some of the the testing tools that you've you've put out there so i've been using those for a long [193.72 --> 199.82] time but linemen seems to be um a bigger project that you're you're behind you're uh building and [199.82 --> 206.12] appreciate having you on i thank you i kind of want to kick off the conversation with quoting you to [206.12 --> 213.46] yourself um no that's always a good way so you can defend yourself uh no i have i cannot warrant [213.46 --> 220.28] anything that past me said past me was not a smart guy but we have it on tape so you have to stand by [220.28 --> 227.60] it um you said and this was recently i think you've even given talks on this uh as as recently as was it [227.60 --> 233.02] rails golf 2014 where the title of the talk is the quote that i'll say is that the rails of javascript [233.02 --> 239.24] won't be a framework um obviously we don't have time to go into your 30 minute discussion on that [239.24 --> 244.72] i know you have tons of details um around that sentence but maybe just kind of unpack it for us [244.72 --> 249.28] tell us what that means and why you say that and then how it kind of led into linemen if it did yeah [249.28 --> 256.02] so the the talk is broken up into two parts uh the first half is a discussion about uh application [256.02 --> 260.50] development as it is especially in this era where people are trying to build lots of uh you know [260.50 --> 264.68] whatever you want to call them fat client javascript applications meant to run in web [264.68 --> 270.34] browsers and then phone home to like you know a lightweight api on the back end um so just a [270.34 --> 273.94] discussion of like you know what's what's painful about that if you're using something like ruby on [273.94 --> 280.50] rails you know the monolithic aspect the fact that the sort of community has been uh gradually moving [280.50 --> 286.08] to node.js and ruby gems aren't you know uh quite quite quite so populated then the second half of the [286.08 --> 292.60] talk is like just like a basically like a a demo of how we've built lineman js to alleviate all of [292.60 --> 298.60] those problems with monolithic rails application development um but the the pivot in the middle [298.60 --> 305.84] i guess is maybe what the what the title is referring to which is right rails is um uh [305.84 --> 311.60] really fantastic for a couple reasons and i think that over the course of 10 years what we've learned is [311.60 --> 316.80] that uh some of the things that we initially loved about rails turn out to not be fantastic for like [316.80 --> 323.62] long-term long-lived projects um you know i break up rails uh responsibilities into sort of three [323.62 --> 331.00] categories there's the uh the build aspect right like all the rake tasks all of the confusingly uh [331.00 --> 337.60] task-like things that you have to type rails for instead of rake for um then there's the um [337.60 --> 343.62] uh uh actual application framework that's the the types that you're extending and the active support [343.62 --> 347.78] apis that you can just kind of reach for wherever you are in your app and so all the coupling between [347.78 --> 352.52] your custom application code with the framework code and all the lift that that gives you and then in the [352.52 --> 359.14] middle is just like uh uh sensible defaults that you don't have to specify and then conventions that we [359.14 --> 366.04] all just sort of follow socially like you learn about from a buddy or from a guide um and and as a [366.04 --> 371.00] result we don't have to repeat ourself from project to project and we don't succumb to uh what i might [371.00 --> 375.82] call like accidental creativity right which you see in a lot of other communities where it's like i've [375.82 --> 381.40] got this 500 line long grunt file over here i'll copy and paste it and i'll diverge it you know uh [381.40 --> 388.14] inadvertently um so when i look back on my experience with rails the the real the hardest thing to learn [388.14 --> 394.52] but the most valuable part was was sensible defaults and convention-driven design um the the application [394.52 --> 399.92] framework stuff has a lot of problems uh and the build stuff was really awesome in 2005 and it just [399.92 --> 406.74] has not progressed to to handle the sort of static assets we're building for the web very well um and [406.74 --> 411.48] so what i want to do is just like cargo call the really great stuff in the middle and then apply that [411.48 --> 417.18] to uh front-end web development um and what i'm finding is like in the node community that's like [417.18 --> 422.42] that's that's that's news to them right like they're they're very kind of unix velocity you want lots of [422.42 --> 428.72] different like an eclectic blend of tiny little modules to work with right as opposed to you know [428.72 --> 433.04] well here's just like a default project and then you can just specify how your project diverges from [433.04 --> 439.14] those defaults uh so culturally it's a it's a it's a you know i feel like it's a point of friction right [439.14 --> 443.26] like you got ruby s on one side who understand this but they've they're very much tied up in the [443.26 --> 447.30] ruby ecosystem and they don't want to leave it and then you have like because lineman's written in [447.30 --> 450.76] node.js you have node.js on the other hand where it's like all these people just like don't [450.76 --> 455.28] understand the cultural benefit of that but they do have the technical tasks and tools to to get [455.28 --> 462.12] awesome stuff done quickly so lineman comes into kind of like you said cargo cult what you thought [462.12 --> 468.28] were the good ideas and rails bring them over to the front end um via the command line and give that [468.28 --> 474.12] structure that we so desperately need that we're saying that's that's my hope and you know in [474.12 --> 479.36] practice at uh our agency uh test double where we're like you know a consultancy who builds a lot [479.36 --> 485.18] of apps uh what we we've been using lineman for for a couple of years now on most of our projects [485.18 --> 489.80] and my favorite thing about it is very similar to my favorite things about rails like i can hop into [489.80 --> 495.14] any one of our projects and i instantly know you know how to run stuff how to build stuff how to get [495.14 --> 499.82] the test running uh i know that it's already set up for travis ci out of the box and i can just push it [499.82 --> 505.60] um i i really love that uh if i look at somebody's application config i can just literally see like [505.60 --> 510.36] them declaring these are the ways that i'm not normal so i can understand what's unusual about [510.36 --> 514.60] their build and where their backends are and all their proxies and their server stubbing and stuff [514.60 --> 520.78] is all like you know really readily apparent um in fact if you want to uh kind of broaden the [520.78 --> 525.48] discussion just a little bit behind my tool i i got the chance to finally meet tom dale and [525.48 --> 531.62] yahuda katson person this year and as i've talked to them about their trials and tribulations and selling [531.62 --> 539.70] ember js outside of the rails community uh i feel like they're doing an analogous uh uh uh crusade [539.70 --> 544.06] from from the rails community's understanding of what makes a good application framework [544.06 --> 549.98] to you know no js land or or just to the web more broadly where people are kind of you know [549.98 --> 555.70] anti-frameworks because there's so much framework fatigue on the front end yeah and uh i think that [555.70 --> 559.40] they're trying to accomplish a lot of the same things especially when it comes to sensible defaults [559.40 --> 563.62] and and common conventions whereas my focus has been more on build tools as opposed to application [563.62 --> 570.34] framework design yeah so lineman itself not a framework it's a it's a tool and it works with [570.34 --> 577.16] the front end frameworks that you would want to use whether it be ember angular knockout perhaps all of [577.16 --> 581.94] the the popular javascript frameworks of the day um so it's not actually trying to solve the [581.94 --> 587.84] application uh framework problem or structure problem it's actually trying to solve the build tools [587.84 --> 594.38] problem it's a single responsibility principle thing yeah exactly so i mean if uh when you when [594.38 --> 599.52] you say lineman new project it's going to assume you've got a totally vanilla javascript and css app [599.52 --> 604.56] and and you just want to build it but as soon as you say like well i want to use ember then all you [604.56 --> 611.50] have to do is say npm tech tech save dev uh lineman ember and hit enter and it'll install you know [611.50 --> 616.32] a lineman ember plugin that will kind of behind the scenes totally dynamically without generating any [616.32 --> 622.56] cruft or crap in your project just modify the configuration and the tasks and the order that [622.56 --> 627.26] they run in so that now you're building an ember project um and and it's doing everything you know [627.26 --> 631.58] handle the templates appropriately and so forth uh same thing with lineman rails if you want to like [631.58 --> 636.12] you know proxy back to a rails application our goal has been all along to like avoid code generation [636.12 --> 642.54] but make it like dead simple to integrate with and build plugins for whatever whatever you want on the [642.54 --> 646.26] top of the stack whatever whatever application framework you want we want to be totally agnostic [646.26 --> 651.24] to that cool so if you don't mind i'd like to step back for a second we'll get back to lineman and the [651.24 --> 656.22] features and and the details there i kind of like to talk to you a little bit uh from a consultant [656.22 --> 662.18] perspective i also run a development firm and at test double you know you're making the decisions on [662.18 --> 667.42] behalf of your clients i assume lots of times which technologies to use uh which style of application [667.42 --> 672.62] they actually need right so we've seen this massive move towards rich javascript front ends especially [672.62 --> 677.68] in the you know the edge of the development community um there's lots of problems that can [677.68 --> 683.88] still be solved with traditional you know page based or rails you know application structure um [683.88 --> 688.16] how do you decide when when your clients come to you is it just based on the needs of the app [688.16 --> 693.86] and how often are a follow-up question how often are you doing the rich javascript clients and how [693.86 --> 699.70] often are you still doing traditional apps that's a great question i think that um there's really a [699.70 --> 704.34] third category too when you try to break down percentages of how we work uh there's a third [704.34 --> 710.26] category too which is like client already has a system and they need they need help and uh we're [710.26 --> 715.28] you know i think very pragmatic because what we want to be doing is uh build trust with the client by [715.28 --> 721.80] meeting them where they are um uh and to choose our battles to choose to like you know take a stand only [721.80 --> 726.04] where making a change from their perspective is going to like you know they're going to appreciably [726.04 --> 730.72] benefit somehow so sometimes like we're we're working in really eclectic and weird you know [730.72 --> 736.88] environments and we're totally cool with that because uh if it's solving the problem uh as well [736.88 --> 740.28] and as efficiently as possible and it's in a way that's copacetic with the client wants that's great [740.28 --> 746.26] but now to your question of like greenfield apps that we're just building most important thing to me [746.26 --> 752.90] is to understand uh what are they trying to get out of the out of the application is is user experience [752.90 --> 757.78] really important like if they want to have a really fantastic tight crisp enjoyable user experience [757.78 --> 761.20] because somebody's going to be in this application all day long maybe working out of it or maybe [761.20 --> 765.96] uh on the other end of the spectrum like it's a public facing application they want to be really [765.96 --> 771.26] sexy and convert a lot of users and build a lot of affect and loyalty then it starts to sound [771.26 --> 775.06] like rich client might make a lot of sense because anything happening locally in your browser is a much [775.06 --> 780.20] tighter feedback loop and you have a lot more kind of ux uh tricks in your toolbox but on the other [780.20 --> 784.70] you know on the other hand if what they need is like they don't have a lot of money uh they they [784.70 --> 788.82] don't have a lot that maybe they'll have a handful of users and it's a it's a seldom used app [788.82 --> 795.42] front-end application development like with javascript is like significantly more expensive and i think that [795.42 --> 800.86] some people don't acknowledge that because they're so busy trying to sell browser as the runtime [800.86 --> 804.96] everything's going this way but you have to acknowledge like it's doing a lot more work like [804.96 --> 809.70] a back-end rails app it's like a specification of the user interface we're just rendering some html the [809.70 --> 814.36] browser's actually doing the ui programming but like introducing a fat client application is just [814.36 --> 818.10] like a much more expensive thing because now you're building two things you're building an api application [818.10 --> 824.98] and you're building a fat client user interface application um and and i try to be as cognizant of [824.98 --> 829.42] the cost of that as possible in spite of the fact that i'm super duper excited about all the cool [829.42 --> 835.86] stuff you can do on the front end yeah i think i fall in that that that same category where um you [835.86 --> 839.82] know depends obviously on the customer's needs and on the actual business goals of the application that [839.82 --> 845.04] they're building and their budget and all sorts of things like that um oftentimes what i find is a [845.04 --> 853.24] very simple traditional web application um can serve companies quite well at first and then and you [853.24 --> 857.80] just kind of sprinkle in the javascript you know the interactions here you know make this uh do that [857.80 --> 864.54] fancy thing um maybe have some ajax based stuff but still doing the traditional style and then over [864.54 --> 869.68] time it gets to the point where they just keep asking for more and more and more of that to where [869.68 --> 875.62] even if you've been pretty diligent which i try to be with the the uh structure of the javascript [875.62 --> 881.68] side of the application which has been growing in line count right yep it gets a certain point where it [881.68 --> 887.76] becomes not unmaintainable but just not as efficient as if this would be you know an ember [887.76 --> 893.14] app with a with an api um do you guys the worst part of the worst part about that yeah the worst [893.14 --> 900.10] part about that particular phenomenon right is that um let me phrase it this way going back to sort [900.10 --> 905.38] of because uh um was it adam you mentioned that you just moved to one week sprints we were talking [905.38 --> 911.24] about like agile stuff right so one of the one of the one of my favorite agile dogmas is uh when you [911.24 --> 915.38] pull a story card and you're trying to implement it do the simplest thing that could possibly work [915.38 --> 922.80] right um i think a lot of agile teams fall into this trap of uh equating simplest with quickest to [922.80 --> 929.86] get done right and so that's the truth for sure so quickest to get done is let's just spin up a rails [929.86 --> 935.44] app put a view on there and then you know maybe iteration two three four we start sprinkling on [935.44 --> 940.36] unstructured javascript and sort of like the you know the the the front end equivalent of like one [940.36 --> 948.06] gigantic main method that we kind of like tease apart in an ad hoc fashion um the the problem with [948.06 --> 953.98] what i call like the simple the simple trap is you're kind of going up this complexity hill [953.98 --> 959.12] in a monolithic way uh in a totally unstructured way from the front end perspective and then all [959.12 --> 963.44] of a sudden you'll reach a point where it's just like you can't go any further and they want features [963.44 --> 967.72] that would demand of a fat client front end app like maybe it's a graphing tool and they want zoom [967.72 --> 972.60] and filter and all this stuff that you can't possibly rasterize on the back end uh there's no [972.60 --> 976.50] there's a huge chasm there there's no logical way to take the stuff that you've already built [976.50 --> 982.88] and iterate further to where they need to go you have to you have to break that monolith up now [982.88 --> 988.70] and and do some amount of rework and and build a new thing and breaking it up is really hard and and [988.70 --> 992.82] rework is really hard especially if somebody else is paying you for it and you're the one who [992.82 --> 998.42] recommended them that they go down that path in the first place so of the greenfield apps what do [998.42 --> 1003.70] you give me that percentage breakdown obviously just ballpark it uh new projects how how many are fat [1003.70 --> 1015.38] clients of our new of our new projects um probably two-thirds fat client one-third uh uh all back end [1015.38 --> 1022.74] just like a api to a uh well what do you know back end well i guess as i think about it i'm trying [1022.74 --> 1028.86] to think like when was the last time we had a client who who actually engaged us for a traditional like [1028.86 --> 1037.62] rails view layer yeah um i think maybe a fair percentage would be to say like 50 50 fat client [1037.62 --> 1043.80] web being 50 and then the other 50 being a combination of just uh like device integration network [1043.80 --> 1049.74] integration all back end services and also maybe a little bit of rail traditional rails crud um but [1049.74 --> 1053.22] we don't see a lot of traditional rails crud anymore because i think that the skills have commoditized [1053.22 --> 1059.74] a bit uh and it's you know a lot of people can get by just fine on that stuff without needing to call [1059.74 --> 1065.88] for help right cool interesting stuff i think you know those those decisions obviously as developers [1065.88 --> 1070.90] or as consultants whatever role we play we're making these decisions on which way do i go so now let's get [1070.90 --> 1077.14] back into lineman let's assume you know i'm convinced i need a javascript fat client lineman looks cool [1077.14 --> 1082.42] lineman says that its mission statement is to make fat client javascript web applications as easy to [1082.42 --> 1087.46] build as traditional server-side html web applications that's your guys's goal so what are the killer [1087.46 --> 1098.94] features what makes lineman awesome to work with so um caveat of uh when you're the person who built the [1098.94 --> 1104.60] thing you you you you use the thing differently than than anyone else will use the thing my usage [1104.60 --> 1110.54] patterns of lineman are probably very different than uh most of our users but so i can only really [1110.54 --> 1114.00] speak for myself because i'm not very good at marketing this thing i spent like a year and a [1114.00 --> 1120.18] half to to build that talk that you referenced at rails conf um my usage is i really like rapid [1120.18 --> 1124.98] prototyping new ideas quickly right so like i previously have been using rails for rapid prototyping [1124.98 --> 1129.50] but when it came to javascript interactions i love being able to say lineman new foo create a new [1129.50 --> 1134.08] project i got to build already and i can just start start writing code and it's immediately showing up [1134.08 --> 1140.04] in a browser um i like the consistency from project to project when we're all building lineman applications [1140.04 --> 1146.70] i like that we can take a common bit of uh one of our uh the biggest lineman users is rackspace um so [1146.70 --> 1151.18] there's a group at rackspace that's doing internal tooling and one of the cool things that they can do is [1151.18 --> 1155.26] they have like a sort of standard stack of lineman plugins and lineman actually supports meta plugins [1155.26 --> 1159.98] too so you could say like make a plugin called lineman rackspace and all it represents is like [1159.98 --> 1164.38] pulling in all of the plugins that it depends on at the versions that they specify and maybe any sort [1164.38 --> 1168.68] of deviations and configuration so you could literally as like an organization just settle on [1168.68 --> 1174.90] like this is our default you know initial project stack um and be off to the races on a new project in [1174.90 --> 1181.06] like two command lines um the other thing the other kind of half to the equation other than the [1181.06 --> 1186.44] like what lineman doesn't do like unlike yeoman it doesn't generate a whole bunch of garbage into [1186.44 --> 1190.64] your project that you can't tease out later can't upgrade later or have to deal with you know a [1190.64 --> 1200.30] community that's not supporting your your your uh bootstrap nonsense um the other thing that that i [1200.30 --> 1205.02] think is really great about lineman is that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater [1205.02 --> 1210.30] from a server-side perspective like if i'm building a rails application um and i just want to you know [1210.30 --> 1215.10] do the next major feature on a standalone page as a lineman application that would be a fat client [1215.10 --> 1219.82] javascript application i can build that lineman application at in a world where that's the only [1219.82 --> 1224.08] thing that exists totally separately totally physically divorced but then lineman has features [1224.08 --> 1228.42] to proxy back to the rails application easily so like any request that lineman doesn't know how to [1228.42 --> 1234.44] handle it'll just phone home to rails um and uh that way you can develop against lineman's port but [1234.44 --> 1239.50] still be inside of your rails application and get all of the benefit without having to completely [1239.50 --> 1245.60] redesign your rails application to be completely just like you know api uh api only uh or divorced [1245.60 --> 1251.12] from any hint of erb or or templates that drop in little javascript variables so you can get up and [1251.12 --> 1256.12] running on almost any project immediately even if it's a long-standing existing one it's not only [1256.12 --> 1261.12] for greenfield projects so do you just check that code into your main app then or do you have [1261.12 --> 1267.02] do you keep separate repositories or either i guess either it depends on you know a person's priorities uh [1267.02 --> 1273.16] if the if the team is already uh figured out cracked the nut on how to do deployments well with multiple [1273.16 --> 1278.04] repos at multiple versions then this is just another repo uh and just like you'd probably put [1278.04 --> 1284.02] your iphone or android application in a separate repo um it can make sense to put your fat client [1284.02 --> 1287.16] javascript application in a separate repo because at the end of the day that's all it is it's just [1287.16 --> 1292.38] another client to your api but i think for most people especially right out the gate um because [1292.38 --> 1296.42] versioning is extra hard and because the deployment story can be more more complex just [1296.42 --> 1303.72] adding that to your repo as like a another root directory is probably a okay um and then on the [1303.72 --> 1308.48] the benefit of doing it that way too is that we have a gem for rails called rails lineman that you just [1308.48 --> 1313.26] you merely install the gem and tell it where your lineman app is and then whenever you run rake assets [1313.26 --> 1318.16] pre-compile like as part of your deploy it'll actually do a lineman build sneakily shove that into [1318.16 --> 1321.20] your public assets directory and so you don't have to configure it but you actually get [1321.20 --> 1328.42] kind of get all of lineman's assets for free without having to think let's pause the show for [1328.42 --> 1333.94] a minute give a shout out to a sponsor if you've ever gotten to work only to find out something [1333.94 --> 1339.36] happened while you're out the server's down customers are unhappy chaos everywhere you gotta [1339.36 --> 1345.40] listen up one of our new sponsors and i'm excited to have them on board pager duty pager duty eliminates [1345.40 --> 1351.08] the noise chaos and manual processes to help you streamline your entire incident [1351.08 --> 1356.32] life cycle and ultimately decrease the amount of time it takes you to resolve issues you can get [1356.32 --> 1362.22] reliable it alerting and on-call management you'll receive instant notifications when incidents are [1362.22 --> 1367.84] reported so you can quickly resolve those issues they're trusted by companies like etsy github [1367.84 --> 1374.50] nike and we want you to try them for free sign up today for a free 30-day trial at pagerduty.com [1374.50 --> 1377.68] slash the changelog and tell them the changelog sent you [1377.68 --> 1385.56] so you mentioned yeoman briefly and it seems like if lineman had a competitor it would be yeoman [1385.56 --> 1392.60] both tools trying to provide you know help for front-end projects um yeoman is a combination of [1392.60 --> 1397.30] yo which i believe and you can correct me if i got details wrong but this is a scaffold generator a [1397.30 --> 1404.72] code generator grunt which is the the the task runner and then bauer i believe is or the dependency [1404.72 --> 1411.46] management of some kind i think it's bauer um how does lyman compare to yeoman uh pros and cons of [1411.46 --> 1418.30] either side um we have a a table up uh at linemanjs.com where i spent some time answering specific [1418.30 --> 1423.80] questions from the community about this and i wish i had in front of me um so so go to linemanjs.com [1423.80 --> 1429.82] check out the table for probably better answers than this um but my um my off-the-cuff reaction is [1429.82 --> 1439.02] that yeoman misses some opportunities that lineman seized upon and it it does some things that i think [1439.02 --> 1446.04] are very attractive for adoption purposes but but long term have a poisonous effect on on the [1446.04 --> 1451.96] sustainability of projects one of the opportunities that it failed to realize is that there is a higher [1451.96 --> 1459.18] order concern than simply running tasks a build is really you know like a its own domain model it [1459.18 --> 1463.64] runs tasks but it has to figure out the order and when and how to do it in the in a way that's like [1463.64 --> 1469.88] maybe you know um iterative like if like say only one file changes just compile that one file and find [1469.88 --> 1474.34] a way to graft it in as opposed to rebuild everything on every single file change right so there's a whole [1474.34 --> 1478.08] bunch of build responsibilities that they just kind of left on the table that something like joe [1478.08 --> 1487.08] lissa's broccoli tool was built to be um the other aspect uh uh that that stands to me about yeoman that [1487.08 --> 1493.82] really bothers me is that it's got all of these community driven generators uh for you like they've [1493.82 --> 1500.16] got this website that's like you know pick which of the 15 bootstrap three generators you want if you [1500.16 --> 1505.90] want to pull like start a bootstrap project or if you want to start this project here and some of them [1505.90 --> 1510.50] are in total disarray some of them are relatively maintained some of them are maintained but they [1510.50 --> 1516.22] actually have like very weird or or incongruent opinions about how to do things well um but all [1516.22 --> 1522.02] of them just generate a lot of cruft that you then have to commit into your repository uh and when you do [1522.02 --> 1529.72] that if you need to upgrade later maybe none almost none of those generators have clear sane upgrade [1529.72 --> 1533.98] paths so it's like you're making a project and it's like at this point in time this project will and [1533.98 --> 1538.42] forever will be you know tied to this version of this one particular tool because we chose to [1538.42 --> 1546.06] you know uh get the convenience of an easy quick start um uh with without you know having to have [1546.06 --> 1550.30] paid the cost for a tool that sort of like embedded conventions for us it just sort of handed all this [1550.30 --> 1555.00] stuff um and that really that really bums me out because when i see that there's not a lot of help [1555.00 --> 1560.44] i can do for people other than recommend that they start fresh yeah i've used yeoman a little bit for a [1560.44 --> 1564.88] few small angular apps and i can definitely those statements resonate with me i found your table by [1564.88 --> 1570.90] the way so just a few other things here that you missed uh you provide html5 push state simulator [1570.90 --> 1578.78] built in um i think really the big differentiator from my perspective is the testing story so lyman [1578.78 --> 1584.34] seems to provide for those interested in in writing tests for their javascript which is a pretty good [1584.34 --> 1590.78] idea if you ask me um you have a test runner you have api stubbing and stuff like that um so that [1590.78 --> 1596.54] you can so you can easily get started testing can you talk about the how the test runner works yeah so [1596.54 --> 1602.86] the the test runner that we use is called testum uh and it was written by a uh a great developer down [1602.86 --> 1609.24] i think he's in atlanta his name is toby ho and uh testum is a test runner that was written to be [1609.24 --> 1615.00] completely agnostic of the test library so you can use testum with uh uh almost anything you can use [1615.00 --> 1620.54] it with obviously q unit jasmine and mocha the big three uh you could use it with casper you could use [1620.54 --> 1628.06] it with with with almost anything you want on on the library end uh and then on the other end it it's [1628.06 --> 1632.78] able to capture lots of different browser environments with a little tiny script and some [1632.78 --> 1640.42] socket io uh so you can easily run uh your tests in any browser you like like uh uh you know whether [1640.42 --> 1645.40] that's ie safari firefox or or what have you or or mobile browsers or different devices on your network [1645.40 --> 1652.40] if you have a device lab and so forth and uh it does all of this with a very sexy uh n curses like [1652.40 --> 1658.30] terminal ui that lets you um like you know arrow between the different the different user agents that [1658.30 --> 1662.76] are running your tests you can see how the uh error messages might differ from one to the next [1662.76 --> 1670.44] um and then it sort of ties a bow around all that with a very nice uh ci mode so this is all the [1670.44 --> 1674.64] interactive mode but in the ci mode it'll run under phantom js and it'll give you you know any format [1674.64 --> 1678.70] you want like whether you want the j unit style xml formatting or whether you want tap formatting [1678.70 --> 1684.54] uh so that you can you know aggregate those results in your ci system uh so testum is really like [1684.54 --> 1690.00] they toby did 100 of the heavy lifting there what lyman does just like it does with all of its grunt [1690.00 --> 1694.20] tasks that it runs and everything else is it just provides a default configuration that just works [1694.20 --> 1701.12] out of the box um and and this is maybe a little selfish but i also shove all of my um uh jasmine [1701.12 --> 1705.08] test helpers that i've built over the years into your helpers directory for you right off the gate [1705.08 --> 1709.76] um and i do that because i use them and i was sick of downloading them but hopefully you know people [1709.76 --> 1714.96] find some benefit from that as well cool yeah that leads me to my next question because uh you know [1714.96 --> 1720.10] talk about downloading uh helpers and whatnot the other but another big differentiator yeoman the [1720.10 --> 1724.60] third part of that would be bauer which is you know it's not really dependency management but it's [1724.60 --> 1730.68] a downloader so to speak um lyman seems to just completely punt on package management it's true [1730.68 --> 1737.34] yeah is that purposeful or it is purpose you got tired it's uh it's very intentional and i think that [1737.34 --> 1742.86] it's uh a couple years ago now i wrote a blog post called unrequired love about required js [1742.86 --> 1749.50] um and how i think that in open source my goal has always been to identify areas of pain [1749.50 --> 1755.76] and then think really hard about why am i feeling that pain and then and then sit and then think [1755.76 --> 1760.24] really hard again and then eventually start writing tools to alleviate that pain somewhat [1760.24 --> 1766.74] and i feel like the obsession with front-end package management tools whether it's require or browserify [1766.74 --> 1771.42] or to the extent that people use bauer as a dependency management tool when i agree with you it's not [1771.42 --> 1777.64] really it's more like a very fancy downloader right um what i worry is that they're identifying the pain [1777.64 --> 1781.66] of i've got all of these third-party scripts everywhere but then they they apply the wrong [1781.66 --> 1785.00] prescription which is let's give me something to manage all of these third-party scripts [1785.00 --> 1790.12] when a better prescription would be let's write leaner meaner applications that don't you know [1790.12 --> 1793.82] that are architected well enough that we can solve a lot more of our own problems without [1793.82 --> 1799.88] immediately leaning on a bajillion you know shitty javascript plugins everywhere um and [1799.88 --> 1805.26] also from the from the from the app code perspective where you know there's a lot of people who are [1805.26 --> 1812.34] using packaging tools to kind of organize and require uh explicitly their own code uh uh you know [1812.34 --> 1816.52] like say like i've got a model that my view wants to use i require that model from that view [1816.52 --> 1820.92] there's nothing wrong with that it's just it's not built into javascript it's not you know part of the [1820.92 --> 1824.90] language it's not something the browsers understand yet and so you're kind of marrying yourself to this [1824.90 --> 1830.74] one-off implementation that will probably look silly two three four years from now um when you [1830.74 --> 1834.82] could just solve it the way that you know by respecting what a javascript web application really [1834.82 --> 1841.20] is which is the you know it is equivalent to the concatenation of all of its listings so just know [1841.20 --> 1846.76] how to concatenate it right and then you're done and better yet write code that is order agnostic [1846.76 --> 1850.96] and design systems that don't matter what order you load stuff in so then you don't have to even [1850.96 --> 1855.86] worry about what order it gets concatenated in um those are the ways that we've tried to solve those [1855.86 --> 1862.34] problems now people like to use bauer we have a lineman bauer uh extension um that that you can use [1862.34 --> 1868.26] with lineman but i personally have been frustrated by it for for a lot of reasons one is that it it [1868.26 --> 1874.70] by default will go and grab master of your github repo and that's not a release right it's got a [1874.70 --> 1879.92] version probably in a file somewhere uh but it's it's going to be divergent from the release which [1879.92 --> 1883.36] has caused a bunch of my friends who maintain libraries to freak out because now they're [1883.36 --> 1887.14] getting all these issues filed against stuff that's happening in master when people are just [1887.14 --> 1895.00] grabbing the wrong artifact uh it encourages organ uh like open source maintainers to start committing [1895.00 --> 1898.88] generated artifacts and then track that separately so then the source of truth of like it is just [1898.88 --> 1905.50] counter diversion control in my opinion um and then the worst part kind of belies your first statement [1905.50 --> 1909.30] which is well it's not a dependency management tool it's a downloader like the fact that it [1909.30 --> 1913.26] seems like a dependency management tool gives everyone a false sense of confidence that it's doing [1913.26 --> 1919.88] things like you know negotiating uh version conflicts and transitive dependencies uh uh you know that [1919.88 --> 1925.56] that every single time you download a specific version of a dependency you're getting exactly the [1925.56 --> 1931.44] same one like you would be from npm or from ruby gems you're not and so those people using bower are [1931.44 --> 1935.58] like well don't commit your your vendor dependencies because you have a bower like part of your build [1935.58 --> 1940.22] will just pull those in and then you'll do a build and then they'll just be kind of transient um [1940.22 --> 1945.78] it's it seems totally backwards to me that yeoman on one hand will generate all of this cruft that is [1945.78 --> 1951.18] literally your application forever uh that you don't need and that you can't upgrade uh uh and then [1951.18 --> 1956.34] on the other hand not commit the actual stuff that's like literally your runtime the system [1956.34 --> 1961.80] that you're building uh that that isn't controlled by you shouldn't be controlled by you so i feel like [1961.80 --> 1967.30] it's just coming at a lot of these issues from diametrically opposed perspectives yeah [1967.30 --> 1973.88] yeah and so what do you do then you just like w get the file into a vendor and then you just [1973.88 --> 1981.08] i mean just old school style old school man yeah it it you know if it if it doesn't hurt if it's [1981.08 --> 1985.50] not broke don't fix it i i just have not run into the problems of scale that some other people i've [1985.50 --> 1989.66] talked to had like you know basically anytime i get into a fisty cuffs internet fight with somebody [1989.66 --> 1994.72] about this they eventually pull out like well my app is eight megabytes of compressed javascript so i [1994.72 --> 1999.94] have these problems i'm like okay cool but don't turn around and like offer this as generic advice of [1999.94 --> 2005.88] like best practices that everyone should be doing because whether that was a necessary eight megabytes of [2005.88 --> 2011.32] complexity which i doubt um or or not it's just not representative of most web applications it's a [2011.32 --> 2015.66] problem you can push off till later and every time i see people try to adopt it on day one whether it's [2015.66 --> 2022.88] browserify require um or even bauer it just introduces all of these stupid engineering problems that are a [2022.88 --> 2027.92] distraction from the goal of building an application and lineman's all about getting up and running and [2027.92 --> 2031.20] building an application quickly and not having to worry about those stupid engineering problems [2031.20 --> 2038.40] like like build get focusing on your build and so forth um and uh it seems to just not respect the [2038.40 --> 2045.56] cost of that right on so lineman you know lineman js interestingly the name is lineman js but if you go [2045.56 --> 2054.60] to github and you click on the language statistics uh 59 coffee script 40 javascript but i can't actually [2054.60 --> 2060.84] find where that javascript is coming from it seems like it's all coffee script i think it's probably uh [2060.84 --> 2066.32] in the archetype uh which is the project that gets generated when you line the new there's javascript [2066.32 --> 2070.42] in that i thought maybe there was some sort of thing that was automatically built that had the js in [2070.42 --> 2078.08] it or something no and in fact uh you know i understand why um there's a first of all there's [2078.08 --> 2083.54] the natural reticence to coffee script in the in the broader outside of ruby community yeah because it's [2083.54 --> 2090.92] different uh and it's non-standard and it is uh you know it looks foreign if you've not used a dynamic [2090.92 --> 2094.52] language before and it looks for foreign to some ruby who've never used a white space sensitive [2094.52 --> 2100.28] language before um personally i'm sold because i you know there's myriad benefits that we could talk [2100.28 --> 2105.98] about separately but um the things that are important to me is i want to write code that's as [2105.98 --> 2110.26] clear and as reliable and understandable and maintainable as i possibly can because maintaining [2110.26 --> 2115.96] open source is hard but i want to be handing people code that they can run with and and easily [2115.96 --> 2121.92] understand uh and make sense of and so when you install a lineman and then run a um you know lineman [2121.92 --> 2126.62] new and make a project everything is all javascript no coffee script gets generated unless you use the [2126.62 --> 2134.54] tac tac coffee um uh option to to convert all of that to coffee script for you um and so i feel like [2134.54 --> 2139.36] it's a kind of a straw man argument you're not the first person to bring it up some people have [2139.36 --> 2142.32] literally been like i won't use this because it was written in coffee script and that just seems to [2142.32 --> 2147.38] me like it's a coming from a point of entitlement right like i refuse to spend the 30 minutes it [2147.38 --> 2151.74] takes to learn coffee script because it's really a very very tiny language when you think about it [2151.74 --> 2156.56] and therefore your thing sucks and we should all not contribute to it and we shouldn't use it [2156.56 --> 2161.64] right plus as you say this is a tool that you use and as an end user it's complete it's a nothing [2161.64 --> 2165.76] to you whether what it was written in right it's generating javascript for you it's a command line tool [2165.76 --> 2173.72] um it shouldn't matter that being said like as you said some people uh you know they're very [2173.72 --> 2178.08] averse to coffee script have you gotten a lot of that kind of feedback with lineman maybe even on the [2178.08 --> 2184.10] contribution side how the the contributors worked uh contributors have been fantastic i mean i always [2184.10 --> 2191.02] want more of them uh i guess i'll break that up into two questions first on contributors i feel like [2191.02 --> 2194.84] because we've been using this every day for two years on almost all of our client projects [2194.84 --> 2201.22] uh lineman solves the problems i needed to solve and it is mature from my perspective i mean we never [2201.22 --> 2205.62] did a 1.0 release but it does almost everything i need pretty well and there's things i want to fix [2205.62 --> 2211.64] like there's rough corners but i can live with them pretty well um and so when people open issues uh or [2211.64 --> 2217.36] have problems i would really love if they would more often contribute uh to the project because it's [2217.36 --> 2222.24] their their itch is not my itch and so i could half-heartedly go and try to build it for them [2222.24 --> 2228.04] um but but really there's uh just sort of a depression that sinks in when you realize that [2228.04 --> 2231.70] you're spending a lot of time just trying to make other people happy on the internet for free [2231.70 --> 2237.96] uh just like arguing on the internet and uh uh it bums me out when people kind of like open an issue [2237.96 --> 2243.66] from from from a from a state of entitlement uh like hey your thing's dumb because it doesn't do this [2243.66 --> 2248.18] and then i i get the thing in my inbox and realize i'm blocking somebody and i feel really guilty and i feel [2248.18 --> 2253.14] beholden to them to like you know go implement that thing uh when you know 90 percent of people [2253.14 --> 2258.70] never even offer or think to open a pull request um that's just that that bums me out and now i've [2258.70 --> 2262.30] forgotten the first half of the question that i also was excited oh just if you have a lot of [2262.30 --> 2267.94] so-called haters because of the copy script i think there's an interesting point to this too which is that [2267.94 --> 2275.56] uh coming from the ruby community where like i think that like i see the same 100 150 people at all of [2275.56 --> 2281.12] these ruby conferences across literally the world it's a much much smaller tighter knit uh community [2281.12 --> 2286.72] and as a result we kind of all like you know there's a monoculture aspect to that you know [2286.72 --> 2292.20] high mind yeah yeah we have debates and arguments but then things settle down and we either separate [2292.20 --> 2299.72] into camps or we just sort of adopt the new the new way you can't do that with javascript because [2299.72 --> 2303.86] everybody is stuck with javascript the whole world is writing javascript and they're all from these [2303.86 --> 2307.24] different tribes and these different heritages and different back-end environments and so [2307.24 --> 2312.50] a lot of times i'll see people whether it's from ruby or python or dotnet or java they will enter [2312.50 --> 2317.96] the javascript world with nothing but the perspective of their back-end experience and then they'll [2317.96 --> 2324.12] immediately freak out because they can't see any agreement like what's the right way to do x right [2324.12 --> 2329.46] what's what's the standard way to do y and the answer is like of course there is no right way [2329.46 --> 2337.44] there is no standard way um and and you have to kind of identify just to signal to noise you know [2337.44 --> 2344.02] manage your life you have to identify a group that that seems to agree with you well enough that you [2344.02 --> 2349.48] can be productive uh and one of the ways that i have sort of self-selected a group when i'm working [2349.48 --> 2355.02] on node.js stuff is if somebody comes to me and says that because i write coffee script i'm my project's [2355.02 --> 2361.32] dumb and i'm dumb too i'm like boom bozo button i don't yep you're out of my tribe the world is much [2361.32 --> 2366.06] too big right for me to feel like i have to make absolutely everybody happy please tell me you have [2366.06 --> 2371.60] a real bozo button i was gonna say i like that button i want that button uh i well i i tapped on [2371.60 --> 2376.38] the lid of my water bottle when i said it so that'll be the new bozo button i guess i'd love to have that [2376.38 --> 2384.22] yes right and it just like automatically blocks them on twitter and uh github there could be an [2384.22 --> 2390.42] api and everything for it yeah yeah i love this because you know open source is so interesting we [2390.42 --> 2395.12] have you know the techno they're the purely technical aspects of it right which we can talk [2395.12 --> 2400.58] about all day long and debate and uh evaluate and improve and all that and then you have the social [2400.58 --> 2407.94] meta kind of like the people of open source and all of the interesting and troublesome [2407.94 --> 2414.90] situations that arise around that um then you have the corporate the corporate aspect where we see [2414.90 --> 2421.80] more corporate backing of open source um licensing like there's all these kind of conversations around [2421.80 --> 2428.40] open source that we can have and we do have um and justin you have a talk that's coming up [2428.40 --> 2431.26] you've been you've been working on it you have an abstract called the social [2431.26 --> 2438.54] coding contract which i think speaks into this milieu of the the community the open source community [2438.54 --> 2442.50] especially in in the world that you run which is really the ruby and javascript communities [2442.50 --> 2447.44] specifically um i'll just pull a quote you sent this to us i'd love to talk about it a little bit [2447.44 --> 2450.54] here i'll pull a quote out of this it's probably not going to get the gist but it's my favorite [2450.54 --> 2456.54] paragraph and you say sometimes i swear i can feel a teetering sensation from how precariously [2456.54 --> 2462.24] our applications are perched on top of an ever-growing web of open source dependencies [2462.24 --> 2467.86] fears that our tech stack is about to topple over have been for fomenting in recent years [2467.86 --> 2474.16] but are those fears founded that's kind of the question you pose um you have a specific [2474.16 --> 2479.62] scenario which kind of leads to this go ahead and speak into that and and tell us your thoughts on [2479.62 --> 2490.50] this yeah so i think the zeitgeist um right now is a little bit cynical uh at least among the people [2490.50 --> 2497.54] that that i follow on twitter and that i that i engage with in the community is that we've been [2497.54 --> 2502.88] on this sort of we've been riding this rocket of ever increasing convenience in the open source world [2502.88 --> 2506.82] it used to be the case that open source was a pain in the ass and you had to be really thoughtful [2506.82 --> 2511.84] when you pulled in an open source dependency not just like legally but like literally like pre-github [2511.84 --> 2517.82] pre all of these cool dependency managers like i remember like the pain even in 2004 of getting a jar [2517.82 --> 2522.92] and getting that jar to like in my class path and working in my java project correctly whereas like [2522.92 --> 2529.92] rubygems made it quite a lot easier bundler made it easier still uh npm makes it like almost comically [2529.92 --> 2536.58] easy to both publish you know dinky little scripts and also to consume them um we're so from a package [2536.58 --> 2541.10] management perspective it's easier and easier to slurp in new dependencies uh and it's easier and [2541.10 --> 2547.06] easier to publish new ones and so um because there's so many solved problems out there and no one wants to [2547.06 --> 2554.22] feel like they're reinventing the wheel every single application becomes a a kind of defined by the 15 [2554.22 --> 2561.76] totally disparate things that it stands on top of and those things are maintained by for the most part [2561.76 --> 2568.58] white dudes in their 20s doing it in their spare time who might you know probably have a 40 chance [2568.58 --> 2576.88] of never committing to that thing again right and that is what runs the world software you know that's [2576.88 --> 2581.68] that's what runs pretty soon you know real-time systems even not like about several friends who [2581.68 --> 2586.20] work in real-time systems this trend is coming to real-time systems things that run hydroelectric [2586.20 --> 2591.02] jams things that run airplanes right those embedded devices are getting so strong now that they can [2591.02 --> 2597.00] realistically run you know uh if not dynamic languages certainly stuff like rust and go and [2597.00 --> 2604.06] that's been brought up in this culture of of of convenient uh uh open source grabs meanwhile we're [2604.06 --> 2608.72] seeing like in the news constantly all these open source projects that literally 80 percent of servers [2608.72 --> 2612.66] rely on be like oh there's a gigantic security hole and everything we thought was secure for the [2612.66 --> 2618.96] last 10 years on the internet wasn't yes uh we have all of these basically like you could almost just [2618.96 --> 2624.64] paint uh your application as a graph of single points of failure like here's all of the millions [2624.64 --> 2629.72] of things that could go wrong that could break us and we don't understand any of them because our [2629.72 --> 2634.02] understanding stops as soon as we've typed the name of the gem into our gem file or the name of the [2634.02 --> 2640.44] package into our package json and so the thrust of the talk is like not that this is necessarily bad [2640.44 --> 2645.02] and we're all doomed it's that users i think have a much greater responsibility to understand what [2645.02 --> 2652.22] dependencies they're pulling in who's maintaining them under you know what pretenses uh uh not just [2652.22 --> 2657.56] how how it's licensed but how is it being built like is it is it is there a healthy community around [2657.56 --> 2663.66] it um is it is it small enough to not be an albatross but is it big enough to have the gravitas [2663.66 --> 2671.02] necessary to be able to rely on you know stable releases and fixes in the future and i think most [2671.02 --> 2675.44] users have kind of just lowered their standards over time as the convenience has gone up from [2675.44 --> 2679.06] companies like that use open source like you mentioned companies companies have a similar [2679.06 --> 2684.00] responsibility like they're getting a tremendous lift a huge amount of free value from open source [2684.00 --> 2689.60] and and if i think of my friends who work in enterprises they have carte blanche ability now to [2689.60 --> 2693.88] use whatever open source they like maybe they have to run a license by a lawyer or something but then [2693.88 --> 2698.86] like if they try to spend two hours to submit a patch it's it's you know basically they have to [2698.86 --> 2704.98] either use vacation time and then still talk to the lawyers uh or or they just you know don't and [2704.98 --> 2709.56] can't and i think that corporations that are using open source and getting all of this tremendous value [2709.56 --> 2716.14] from it have a responsibility to give back something and i don't know exactly what that is yet but that's [2716.14 --> 2720.24] some some of the stuff i'm going to be chewing on for the talk but the maybe the more interesting [2720.24 --> 2724.50] part to me because i'm more you know i publish a lot of open source and not everyone does is i want [2724.50 --> 2728.00] to kind of peel the curtain back a little bit into just like what's the psyche of an open source [2728.00 --> 2735.28] maintainer and for me the the saddest thing about it is that i build tools to solve problems that i [2735.28 --> 2740.96] have and i get some day one gratification of like man i just solved that problem that i had i granted [2740.96 --> 2745.12] i spent all day on a tool to solve the problem when i could have solved the problem some other way in 30 [2745.12 --> 2750.40] minutes but you know now i've automated it and that's fantastic but then days like two through n of [2750.40 --> 2755.16] the project are well i had that first problem but now almost all of my problems are maintaining this [2755.16 --> 2761.08] thing that solves that same problem for other people into perpetuity and when you build a thing [2761.08 --> 2766.02] because you wish it existed in the world you don't get to enjoy it the same way as if it had already [2766.02 --> 2771.12] existed because you have to maintain it you have to worry about it and you have to you take the heat [2771.12 --> 2777.10] when it doesn't work out for some stranger on the internet um and all of those things really [2777.10 --> 2782.72] contribute to the sort of burnout that we see in open source um and and that burnout feeds directly [2782.72 --> 2787.92] into the instability of all the dependencies that we stand on so there's just this uh healthy unhealthy [2787.92 --> 2793.88] burning of the candle at both ends that's going on uh and it's structural and we have to really think [2793.88 --> 2800.12] radically i believe to to figure out what's a sustainable way forward um for all of these [2800.12 --> 2803.62] shared tools because granted everyone no one wants to have to like you know resolve all the same [2803.62 --> 2808.22] problems in every single enterprise and just sort of have like this big nasty dark closet of wheel [2808.22 --> 2814.84] reinvention uh because that's you know similarly hugely error prone but there's got to be a better [2814.84 --> 2821.42] way uh to to sort of just find like that's why i called it the social coding contract like we have [2821.42 --> 2828.44] to find some sort of like you know cultural mores to um shift both our expectations as users and also [2828.44 --> 2834.72] how we view uh maintainers they are not these superheroes that that have like a bajillion stars on github [2834.72 --> 2839.22] and have figured out how to do software they're mostly just people who published a thing and it [2839.22 --> 2845.56] got popular and now their life is dominated by that thing let's pause the show for a minute 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[2899.98 --> 2907.34] dot com and enter the coupon code changelog at checkout and you get five dollars off start shaving better [2907.34 --> 2914.26] today wow so do you have any radical ideas are you just kind of broaching the topic at this point [2914.26 --> 2919.74] saying this is something that we need to talk about um i i have some but they're probably too early to [2919.74 --> 2925.98] speak with with any confidence i think that the um the overarching [2925.98 --> 2934.14] message is going to be that that both parties need to meet in the middle right users need to have a [2934.14 --> 2938.50] deeper understanding of what they're using you need to like default to open up source and look at how the [2938.50 --> 2943.80] source works and contribute back a little bit um because only if you're having the deeper understanding of [2943.80 --> 2947.76] what you're on top of could you ever hope to contribute there's like this demystification [2947.76 --> 2951.78] that occurs when you actually look at the source of the thing you're like oh wow that guy was a [2951.78 --> 2959.16] human huh i thought it was magic um yeah there was a real moment in my you know technical career [2959.16 --> 2965.48] as software developer where i went from being like too afraid to do that to like be that becoming my [2965.48 --> 2969.40] the first thing i do almost immediately sometimes to a fault where i'm like i'm gonna blame this [2969.40 --> 2977.10] dependency when really just my code is got a bug in it but but like i agree with you absolutely like [2977.10 --> 2983.44] you as users of open source like we should be hopping into that and being able to diagnose or try [2983.44 --> 2990.08] right it's difficult for beginners to do those kind of things but um you know the earlier and sooner you [2990.08 --> 2996.14] do it and dive into the mucky muck so to speak the sooner you realize like it's not magic in here this [2996.14 --> 3001.52] this black box has parts that make sense and some don't work and some do and and you grow as a [3001.52 --> 3006.34] developer as part of participating in that process i think that's changing though i think for beginners [3006.34 --> 3013.18] that's that's changing because of the source being so pointed to and pull requests being so social now [3013.18 --> 3017.44] i think that's that's beginning to evolve i think people are becoming more and more aware that [3017.44 --> 3022.80] their first resource should be not just asking your buddy hey how does this work or ask the maintainer [3022.80 --> 3026.50] hey where's the api for this or the docs for this or whatever it's like digging into the actual code [3026.50 --> 3032.64] themselves it's becoming i think that that thought jared is kind of evolving a bit i agree that it's [3032.64 --> 3038.78] evolving a bit and i think that github and pull requests um have helped but one of the things that's [3038.78 --> 3043.24] actually i think kind of unfortunate is that our tools have taken several steps back like i talked [3043.24 --> 3049.70] about just focus on ruby and javascript today say like ruby's debuggers aren't fantastic um ruby offers a [3049.70 --> 3054.36] lot of introspection capabilities of like what's going on in the runtime but not a ton of introspection [3054.36 --> 3060.16] about like where's this source and what is it and how do i open it um a node is about a bajillion [3060.16 --> 3065.94] times worse than this uh because uh debugging you know what's going on under the covers is notoriously [3065.94 --> 3070.34] difficult uh to the point that you know the operational standard in node is like oh well yeah [3070.34 --> 3075.10] every single node process leaks memory like a sieve so just make sure that operationally you can bounce [3075.10 --> 3081.06] those servers whenever you need to um and and it really starts to feel after a while like a black [3081.06 --> 3087.44] box like what's going on under here so i guess i mean one one approach would be invest the time in [3087.44 --> 3094.10] tools that make that lower that that barrier of entry to to hop over into the source code or even [3094.10 --> 3099.16] just like exclaim and visualize it and put it in your face even when you don't ask it to so that like [3099.16 --> 3103.42] you know sort of like code folding right in browser in editors what if you could just like every time [3103.42 --> 3108.44] you called a third party api you could unfold that code and see the source of that method like in [3108.44 --> 3114.82] every editor that sort of stuff would just dramatically i think uh increase the level of [3114.82 --> 3122.52] engagement from users yeah absolutely you think perhaps languages um like go and and russ have [3122.52 --> 3128.16] easier time developing those kind of tools we would have in our communities just because of the nature of [3128.16 --> 3133.40] the languages um it seems like this this thought kind of came into focus you said when uh you [3133.40 --> 3139.46] took over rspec given recently after jim after jim wyrick's death i know you are a huge fan of jim [3139.46 --> 3145.12] wyrick um can you speak to that kind of the process of taking over and just uh anything you like to [3145.12 --> 3153.46] about jim yeah um so i've taken uh over the project with uh another wonderful fella named doug elcorn he's [3153.46 --> 3161.62] at gaslight software in cincinnati um and i've only we've taken it over in name only uh we we haven't yet [3161.62 --> 3165.10] actually started digging into the code and starting to work through the backlog of issues [3165.10 --> 3170.92] um but it's funny because we started this process like five months ago and we only like got ruby [3170.92 --> 3175.90] gems access a few weeks ago and we're only able to announce it like last week and a big reason for that [3175.90 --> 3182.98] was uh a combination of of situational problems that are very common um i believe that like uh jim [3182.98 --> 3188.50] didn't specify this kind of stuff in a will right like like who's the executor of my open source [3188.50 --> 3195.32] cachet like who runs rake now right uh and as the world ages as like all this open source is around [3195.32 --> 3199.46] longer we're going to have to deal with this like literally like you need a living will for your open [3199.46 --> 3205.06] source you need to specify whose copyright it is if you die and who can maintain it because [3205.06 --> 3209.68] places like github that we have since learned will require stuff like that legally before they can just [3209.68 --> 3217.32] hand you a repository uh it's not enough that the guy passed away um uh a lot of other services are [3217.32 --> 3222.50] are you know very accommodating but uh you know maybe have a like less rigor about that kind of [3222.50 --> 3226.62] thing but then at the same time they're also operating on shoestring budgets and they just can't [3226.62 --> 3232.04] handle the the the volume of customer help requests that they have so like ruby gem specifically they [3232.04 --> 3236.82] don't have the funding to to spend a ton of time on support and so it took quite a while to get [3236.82 --> 3243.16] uh feedback from nick and evan about about how to move forward uh so so situationally that was [3243.16 --> 3248.58] that was painful um i think i think just structurally [3248.58 --> 3256.78] what i worry about is that we we just aren't geared for for [3256.78 --> 3263.18] sharing dependencies with other people sharing control with other people i guess the other half [3263.18 --> 3267.56] of the talk to get to give you sort of like we talked about the user responsibility the other [3267.56 --> 3271.88] half of the talk is like maintainers generally built their stuff to solve their own problem [3271.88 --> 3278.74] and when somebody else wants to help they're they're they're solving a slightly different [3278.74 --> 3284.16] problem they're solving a variation on the problem that the color is colored by their perspective [3284.16 --> 3289.24] and as a maintainer i don't want to cede control to that guy because he's going to like you know [3289.24 --> 3293.40] if he's really active he's going to kind of pull the project away from my center of gravity towards [3293.40 --> 3297.72] where he wants maybe it's how he codes things or maybe it's what it does and how it does what it [3297.72 --> 3301.70] does and so i think a lot of uh open source maintainers even though they're great people [3301.70 --> 3307.38] tend to be kind of control freaks because they've been burned you know however many times with pull [3307.38 --> 3312.72] requests that introduce bugs and then they have to maintain and so forth um but but i keep seeing all [3312.72 --> 3318.28] these projects that have literally one contributor on them uh and my goal is to try to discourage that [3318.28 --> 3323.32] in my own work uh and and try to pull in additional contributors and try to more actively solicit people [3323.32 --> 3328.54] for help not just because i'm i don't want to spend the time working on it constantly that would be [3328.54 --> 3334.66] great but because uh it is more stable the more people have access and control to things and have [3334.66 --> 3341.42] had eyes on it you know i've never read read rspec given 2.0's uh source code i was familiar with 1.0 [3341.42 --> 3347.36] but 2.0 was a rewrite so i'm gonna have to go in basically with no help uh and totally figure it out [3347.36 --> 3352.22] soup to nuts and if i'd spent just a little bit of time pairing with jim and he had an open offer [3352.22 --> 3358.78] on the table for me to pair with him on it uh uh which i obviously regret not taking him up on [3358.78 --> 3365.38] uh now i'm totally on my own um to say nothing of how important you know his documentation is going [3365.38 --> 3371.16] to be to me which is another area a lot of open source fall short um so that project in particular i [3371.16 --> 3375.90] love it because it's just uh jim gave several talks on rspec given if you have any familiarity with [3375.90 --> 3385.06] rspec or with bdd style unit testing uh i think that given is a really really thematically honest [3385.06 --> 3392.28] conceptually pure way to write unit tests um and it has a lot of benefits that are just not obvious [3392.28 --> 3396.80] at first blush at first blush it looks like oh these are just aliases to give in and before each [3396.80 --> 3401.74] and so forth like that it's just more dsl kind of you know machinations but when you really dive in [3401.74 --> 3407.34] and you realize like the how the structure of the tests becomes much more clear and the uh the [3407.34 --> 3413.54] additional tools that it gives you with using less fewer keywords uh it's a fantastic tool and and i've [3413.54 --> 3417.90] got a port called jasmine given that does the same thing for jasmine which is why i've got the interest in [3417.90 --> 3425.54] maintaining both going forward um but anyway yeah i love the tool and and uh you know speaking on jim [3425.54 --> 3433.42] a little bit more broadly uh my goal is to be more like him in how i carry myself in the community [3433.42 --> 3437.98] and i i feel like a lot of people have said that after he passed away jeff casimir tweeted right after [3437.98 --> 3444.24] jim passed that um no matter who you were uh or or or what your idea was or what you had to say or [3444.24 --> 3451.76] whether jim had had had learned that thing that you learned a hundred years ago he treated you like [3451.76 --> 3458.98] you were fascinating and he uh uh got excited for your excitement and he just had so much joy in his [3458.98 --> 3464.48] heart that he couldn't wait to share with whoever was around him and he was so welcoming um that even [3464.48 --> 3469.80] when you know he was a well-rounded guy i mean he got mad at stuff i think one time he said that you [3469.80 --> 3477.86] you've never really understood a dependency until you've come to hate it um he he he could be biting [3477.86 --> 3485.12] like i i this is several years old now but like when he gave me criticism about about uh code that [3485.12 --> 3491.54] i wrote or how i wrote it uh you know i wanted just like you know you know that that uh uh that image [3491.54 --> 3496.72] where it's like you know lie down and ball try not to cry cry uncontrollably like i like it's really [3496.72 --> 3507.60] uh hit my ego hard but the reason he he was uh uh so so so i guess why it hurt me so much [3507.60 --> 3513.46] was because it's so true and his his feedback was so crisp and so grounded in just so much expertise [3513.46 --> 3517.66] and so much wisdom that he he'd you know he didn't get that wisdom because he was older and he'd been [3517.66 --> 3521.72] programming a long time he got that wisdom because he was incredibly thoughtful and introspective [3521.72 --> 3527.94] and careful and he managed to have both that aspect which i which uh you know i try to pride [3527.94 --> 3534.04] myself on but also this ability to very gracefully meet people where they are and get inside of their [3534.04 --> 3540.56] heads and um that's something that that i think that all of us could you know do a better job with [3540.56 --> 3545.08] and it just makes me really sad we're not going to be running into him at all the conferences [3545.08 --> 3553.92] throughout ohio from now on yeah absolutely man uh speaking of jim the ruby rogues did a a great [3553.92 --> 3557.64] tribute episode i don't know if you heard that or not episode 151 look it up while you're talking there [3557.64 --> 3562.72] uh the ruby rogues talk about jim and all the impact he had on them he had such a dramatic impact on [3562.72 --> 3567.36] so many it's just amazing how many people even though it's a small community that he specifically [3567.36 --> 3574.84] touched a huge loss to the ruby community well justin i think that's a good place to wrap [3574.84 --> 3579.28] appreciate you coming on we're excited about lyman and what you're doing there i've used it a little [3579.28 --> 3584.72] bit i'm excited to use it on some more projects and uh thanks for coming on and talking to us right [3584.72 --> 3589.18] on thank you guys i really appreciate being here and if anyone has any questions at all feel free to [3589.18 --> 3594.30] reach out to me on twitter or i'm justin at testdouble.com and specifically with lyman like [3594.30 --> 3598.74] we don't have an irc or anything so if you have a question or something's confusing just open a github [3598.74 --> 3603.16] issue it's not just about this code doesn't work we just want to have the conversation uh in in one [3603.16 --> 3609.38] place and help help everyone out awesome well we'll be back next week and let's all say goodbye [3609.38 --> 3612.18] bye so long [3612.18 --> 3627.78] like [3627.78 --> 3630.88] you [3630.88 --> 3632.88] you [3632.88 --> 3662.86] Thank you.