Building Bridges_transcript.txt

[0.00 --> 17.18]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stankowiak this is episode 157
[17.18 --> 23.02]  and on today's show we're joined by a special guest host beverly nelson you've seen beverly
[23.02 --> 29.90]  around the blog she has done some awesome stuff in the learning section a more recent article for
[29.90 --> 36.28]  her is get resources for visual learners if you haven't seen that post check the show notes for it
[36.28 --> 43.48]  we're also joined by sarah allen sarah is most known for her work to diversify ruby with rails
[43.48 --> 49.98]  bridge she co-founded that in 2009 and also bridge foundry but we dive deep into sarah's history of
[49.98 --> 56.30]  programming such wealth of knowledge loved having sarah on the show we have three awesome sponsors
[56.30 --> 64.06]  for the show code ship top tout and digital ocean code ship is our first sponsor very hosted
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[109.64 --> 118.34]  hey everybody adam here from the change log i'm joined today by sarah allen and beverly nelson
[118.34 --> 124.86]  sarah you uh been lining up this call for a while beverly you helped line it up uh just some quick
[124.86 --> 131.90]  introductions from my side beverly you work on the uh change log team writing and now being on the
[131.90 --> 138.80]  podcast and sarah you uh and beverly work together outside of this stuff actually in uh with your
[138.80 --> 144.32]  with the with bridge founder something you founded to to help uh move tech learning move moving
[144.32 --> 151.12]  forward uh so welcome to the show thank you it's great to be here and i guess sarah let's start with
[151.12 --> 155.26]  you with some quick introductions so for those who may not know who you are how do you introduce yourself
[155.26 --> 161.18]  well i've been in the software industry for over 20 years most of the time as an individual
[161.18 --> 168.38]  contributor developer um also as a technical leader and um early in my career i did a little bit of ui
[168.38 --> 176.88]  design and now i um lead a product team um working for the united states federal government at a group
[176.88 --> 183.96]  called 18f i have to say that i do not speak for the federal government and um with that disclaimer
[183.96 --> 193.22]  i'm speaking in my personal capacity um uh i am a leader of bridge foundry the leader of bridge
[193.22 --> 198.40]  foundry which is an organization that started out as rails bridge which i co-founded with sarah may
[198.40 --> 206.58]  um and the open workshops project and um and then a few years ago we refactored the organization
[206.58 --> 213.24]  and created bridge foundry which is dedicated to all the different technologies and um
[213.24 --> 220.92]  in my other hat that i wear is i have a startup company that i work on on the side called mightyverse
[220.92 --> 228.58]  so many things wow lots of things the serial innovator is what i read somewhere about you is that uh
[228.58 --> 234.48]  seems to be true right yeah that's the name i came up with because um people always call themselves
[234.48 --> 241.78]  serial entrepreneurs and i like making things and sometimes they're companies and sometimes they're
[241.78 --> 247.94]  open source projects or sometimes they're other things and uh so beverly you helped line up this
[247.94 --> 253.86]  call uh good friends with sarah work with her with uh with bridge foundry we work together at pure
[253.86 --> 259.56]  charity so that's that's obviously uh nothing that's hidden you've worked with uh me on the change log
[259.56 --> 265.90]  one of your posts recently was a very big post get resources for visual learners you love teaching so
[265.90 --> 272.26]  i don't know if i did your intro for you but it could be to a degree that sums it up i would say
[272.26 --> 277.16]  definitely i'm a ruby developer and i just have a tremendous passion for learning and making
[277.16 --> 282.84]  information accessible especially for those who may be in an area that's not diverse enough to have
[282.84 --> 287.96]  technology easily accessible and so it's a personal gain of my personal mission just to really expose
[287.96 --> 290.90]  that to as many people as possible and give them the opportunities that i was given
[290.90 --> 301.16]  so i feel like this call isn't exactly um isn't exactly just about you know your efforts collectively
[301.16 --> 307.08]  the two of you together around diversity not so much just for women but also for all walks of life
[307.08 --> 312.24]  all races of life uh the under the underrepresented but also about the work you're doing an open
[312.24 --> 318.88]  source and sarah i'm really interested about uh about your history um in software development you've
[318.88 --> 324.22]  been around for a while i'm not saying you're old i'm 36 but i've got some history and you've got
[324.22 --> 328.50]  some history so i'm really curious to like go back in your past a bit can we go back in your past to
[328.50 --> 335.04]  maybe um you know some fun times i guess when did this all begin for you well i started programming
[335.04 --> 342.92]  when i was 12 oh okay um my mom brought home an apple 2 um she'd been laid off from teaching
[342.92 --> 349.76]  and decided that she was going to sell computers which is a huge departure from for her and um she
[349.76 --> 355.12]  really wanted to learn about them and i was very lucky that i had school off the day after it arrived
[355.12 --> 362.86]  and at that time um apple 2's came with a manual that told you how to kind of open it and get started
[362.86 --> 368.90]  and then it came up with a second book that taught you basic so i just walked went through the book and
[368.90 --> 374.86]  typed stuff into the command line and learned how to make the computer do things and i think it's a
[374.86 --> 383.06]  very sad thing that nowadays it's very inaccessible to get started coding i think it's a great thing that
[383.06 --> 387.66]  computers are more accessible for people who don't want to code but now you have to install all this
[387.66 --> 394.26]  stuff onto your computer just to write code and i think that's pretty unfortunate yeah i guess so so
[394.26 --> 400.60]  what's the i guess the kind of marrying that against the setup to develop ruby i guess on a on a mac is
[400.60 --> 407.60]  that what you mean yeah i mean anything you know if you we we have these graphical user experiences and
[407.60 --> 419.22]  um you have to install special editions to get to the terminal on a mac um and often it's just hard to
[419.22 --> 425.90]  get started in the early days of apple and macintosh there were things like hyper card you know there
[425.90 --> 432.12]  was um there was basic there were all these things that were built in that allowed um people to kind
[432.12 --> 439.98]  of access the underbelly of the machine or do a little hacking in a friendly way and that um value
[439.98 --> 448.84]  system of really allowing people to modify and change and invent things with computers seems to be
[448.84 --> 458.90]  um a less accessible than it was you know in the early days so i guess you have a pretty awesome
[458.90 --> 467.02]  handle right ultrasaurus and you've even gone as far on your site to explain uh what an ultrasaurus is
[467.02 --> 472.48]  but for those who don't want to go to that url and and read your awesome copy about what an ultrasaurus
[472.48 --> 478.82]  is which i totally enjoyed uh what is an ultrasaurus can you tell us now um it's a um very large
[478.84 --> 485.16]  dinosaur so i did i'm not sure that i was um i didn't give it a lot of forethought when i came
[485.16 --> 490.94]  up with this handle because i i'm not sure that i should have picked being a very large dinosaur when
[490.94 --> 499.40]  it comes to working in tech um because there are biases against people who are older but uh i did uh
[499.40 --> 507.82]  i when i first um i needed to have a domain name that was unique and i had a my son was four and a half
[507.82 --> 513.46]  years old at the time and going through this major dinosaur phase and the ultrasaurus i had recently
[513.46 --> 521.78]  learned about so um i picked that as a domain name and then i was experimenting with a bunch of
[521.78 --> 527.60]  what are now called social networks but at the day we you know sort of called themselves you know sort
[527.60 --> 533.22]  of consumer computer assisted collaborative work i think was what people called it or something like
[533.22 --> 539.18]  that and so i would need sarah is a common name and sarah allen actually is a common name so
[539.18 --> 545.10]  i would put ultrasaurus as the name for all these different things that i was experimenting with
[545.10 --> 553.24]  um realizing only later that that would then become my actual name on the internet it's crazy though right
[553.24 --> 558.04]  like it i guess i'm gonna say back in the day because i chose the same thing back in the day
[558.04 --> 563.52]  i was adamstack.com i never was my full name because my last name is nine letters and as soon
[563.52 --> 568.96]  as you see nine letters you're like uh i can't pronounce your name so i was just adam stacks and
[568.96 --> 575.80]  so you know you kind of choose your handle to a degree um but nowadays it's a bit more explicit right
[575.80 --> 582.36]  when you join the web basically social anything anytime you make a presence on the web you're asked
[582.36 --> 588.14]  what is your username and so sometimes people have several uh sometimes people have aliases because
[588.14 --> 593.64]  they're they're like catfish or whatever um but some of us are pretty explicit about who we are we and
[593.64 --> 600.00]  we kind of state that out there so you sort of did it accidentally to a degree yeah and then and now of
[600.00 --> 606.02]  course it's um it's very convenient because as long as i'm relatively early in this whatever it is
[606.02 --> 614.26]  usually aldosaurus is a unique name so let's talk a bit about uh i guess past the apple 2 past basic
[614.26 --> 619.90]  at what point did it become real for you you know like you're a kid you were 12 but at what point
[619.90 --> 625.80]  were you like i i want to do this for a living i like this stuff i could do something with it at what
[625.80 --> 631.68]  point did that happen for you it wasn't until after i graduated from college i'd actually gotten a
[631.68 --> 638.64]  computer science degree and co-founded a company before i decided that this was actually what i
[638.64 --> 648.46]  wanted to do how's that happen well i um i went to brown university and i was kind of really interested
[648.46 --> 654.88]  in studying language but i ended up wanting to get a visual arts degree and i was really interested in
[654.88 --> 660.90]  studio art but i didn't think that that was um if i was paying all this money for college i should do
[660.90 --> 666.08]  something practical so i did i studied computer science as a backup um because i figured i could
[666.08 --> 674.02]  always get a job programming and um and then i decided not to do art full-time because i wanted
[674.02 --> 681.60]  not to compromise my art um and i had this theory that if i was a programmer by day that i would have
[681.60 --> 688.26]  time to do art um which i did probably for one year of my career but as um i think we all know it can
[688.26 --> 696.62]  be a little all-consuming to be a programmer yes so i um a bunch of my friends um who graduated a half
[696.62 --> 701.14]  a year before me were starting this company we called the company of science and art which was a
[701.14 --> 710.66]  very good fit for me and i um i joined the you know the founding team of this company and still you
[710.66 --> 714.90]  know we were building software but i didn't think that this was what i was going to do with my life
[714.90 --> 724.24]  and then um it was only i was answering a tech support call and um because we all took turns
[724.24 --> 728.22]  you know playing tech support um there were only eight of us at the company and this was probably
[728.22 --> 736.84]  like a year later and um there somebody had bought our software and had a question about like what it
[736.84 --> 742.10]  could do and i had helped write the manual i was very proud of myself and i said oh you just turn to
[742.10 --> 751.42]  page 34 and you can see right there that it does whatever and um the guy said wow i didn't know
[751.42 --> 759.20]  computers could do that and he said i just bought this software as a lark um i thought maybe it would
[759.20 --> 767.60]  be helpful but i was not convinced that this was even possible and i was really struck by that because
[767.60 --> 774.94]  it was something like um you know our software you could then it would did um audio and like
[774.94 --> 783.40]  synchronized graphics and audio off um cd-rom and this was like connecting um something like
[783.40 --> 793.96]  macromine director to play our um audio and video triggered from something mechanical so nowadays like
[793.96 --> 798.50]  that's mom and apple pie everybody realizes that you know the internet of things you can connect
[798.50 --> 808.34]  things and sensors to computers but um even then i knew that that was possible it never occurred to me
[808.34 --> 814.72]  that there was anybody who was literate who would have a computer who would not realize that this was
[814.72 --> 821.60]  possible right that just maybe it was you know took a bunch of work to make it to make the connections
[821.60 --> 827.84]  happen and maybe it wasn't practical like maybe it wasn't worth the expense of doing it but it was
[827.84 --> 835.52]  certainly possible and that there was somebody who thought that maybe it wasn't possible and then i
[835.52 --> 843.58]  thought of all the things that i can think of that i know are possible like i just i just know it
[843.58 --> 850.26]  because of all the things that i know and then i can imagine these things that other people can't
[850.26 --> 856.50]  imagine because they don't think they're possible blows your mind yeah so i just started at a
[856.50 --> 863.38]  relatively young age thinking about all the things that i knew were possible that other people could
[863.38 --> 869.20]  maybe they didn't have access to those like even those ideas and maybe it was my responsibility
[869.20 --> 876.50]  or opportunity to make some of those things and we just um we ship a weekly email called change
[876.50 --> 881.64]  all weekly and this isn't a plug for that but it's awesome you should sign up for it um we just
[881.64 --> 888.96]  shipped this latest issue and i'm going to it right now because um i was really excited to put this
[888.96 --> 895.22]  this one post in there in particular and it was about is coding the new literacy and that's actually
[895.22 --> 900.52]  the one it was uh it was actually that's actually the title of it and it was a mother jones uh post but
[900.52 --> 904.98]  it was from back in the day and and i'm glad they didn't have it time stamped well enough so that when
[904.98 --> 910.20]  people get there you can like judge it based on its date uh because it was such a great article about
[910.20 --> 917.04]  how you know i think what you're talking about and correct me if i'm wrong but being that code coding
[917.04 --> 923.24]  is a new literacy when you understand how the phone in your pocket works and you can make something for
[923.24 --> 932.22]  it it like it changes your life because you could never do that before right and even further back you
[932.22 --> 937.68]  couldn't even imagine that something could do you know the aha moment where you're mentioning where
[937.68 --> 942.40]  you're on that customer service call like how could you not know that's possible i know it's possible
[942.40 --> 946.64]  why can't you know it's possible and it's just it's so mind-blowing to see the gap there between
[946.64 --> 953.08]  those who know what's possible and those who don't and the literacy gap in between and look how close
[953.08 --> 958.36]  sarah came to not having that at all you know what if her mom didn't start selling computers what if
[958.36 --> 962.48]  she had decided not to go ahead and go forward with programming you know those things and even
[962.48 --> 966.82]  for me i had a similar circumstance where i was introduced to programming at a very young age
[966.82 --> 971.36]  and i think back that was a catalyst moment for me what if that had never been shown to me would
[971.36 --> 975.38]  i've been a completely different person and it's turned out to be you know absolutely essential and
[975.38 --> 979.52]  something that i enjoy so much and enjoy sharing with others but it was because somebody exposed it to
[979.52 --> 983.86]  me and let me see what programming was all about and let me see the possibilities of being able to
[983.86 --> 989.88]  create and so definitely having that opportunity i hate that it was a chance for many people in the
[989.88 --> 998.22]  past and i think there's a real uh initiative to change that yeah i agree i think that um i think
[998.22 --> 1003.70]  everybody should learn to code for the same reasons that i think everybody should understand photosynthesis
[1003.70 --> 1010.98]  you know like it's not like i use this in my daily life like i don't really use chemistry or
[1010.98 --> 1017.32]  um maybe i you could argue that i use physics because you know gravity makes a difference in
[1017.32 --> 1023.82]  my life but um there's so many things that i learned in grade school that just helped me make decisions
[1023.82 --> 1029.50]  about the world you know they helped me understand global warming and they helped me understand
[1029.50 --> 1036.10]  why you know i think i should pay taxes for certain things that you know protect our and you know that
[1036.10 --> 1042.74]  i think there should be laws that protect our environment and um it may help me reason about
[1042.74 --> 1048.42]  the world and i think coding is like one of those things i don't think everybody needs to be a software
[1048.42 --> 1055.08]  developer but everybody right yes should be able to have these tools right that's what i tell so many
[1055.08 --> 1062.30]  people too i meet people who are very you know either one intellectual naturally or educated and i'm like
[1062.30 --> 1066.78]  you would be a really awesome programmer i could just tell based on how you think and it's not so
[1066.78 --> 1071.52]  much that hey you should go and program for a living but it'd be kind of neat to sit down and learn
[1071.52 --> 1079.08]  html css and javascript as a start potentially and just like just understand like you said before what's
[1079.08 --> 1083.66]  possible you know i think that people don't really grasp that and i wish more people got it
[1083.66 --> 1092.38]  yeah i agree i also think that um it i do i like you sometimes i meet people and you can kind of see
[1092.38 --> 1096.86]  how their brain works and you're like wow i have an instinct that you'd be good at this and like it
[1096.86 --> 1105.12]  but i also think that it's really hard to tell who's going to be good at programming based on other
[1105.12 --> 1111.16]  characteristics i have this theory that if you took a hundred people that there would always be a
[1111.16 --> 1118.30]  certain percentage of them who are good at coding like i don't know whether it's 20 or 50 or 80
[1118.30 --> 1126.24]  but it's not a hundred percent like and i think it has a lot to do with how whether people love it
[1126.24 --> 1132.96]  um there's like this crazy gratification that some of us get when you're like wow it works oh my gosh
[1132.96 --> 1140.72]  it's like magic and not everybody has that amazing thrill when it works um but i think there's some
[1140.72 --> 1146.86]  percentage of people right for whom they have that it's exciting it's fun there it like clicks
[1146.86 --> 1152.26]  through your brain in a certain way and it has nothing to do with whether you're good at math
[1152.26 --> 1158.64]  it has nothing to do with any particular attribute that i've ever been able to see it's just that some
[1158.64 --> 1167.88]  people love it and have that like special spark of this is what they you know the it all makes sense to
[1167.88 --> 1176.18]  them and you know and i think that so many people are just not even exposed to it that you would just
[1176.18 --> 1182.12]  never know it and that's what's so fun about these work weekend workshops we do that people learn it and
[1182.12 --> 1186.32]  some people they just end up like okay well i have this skill that i didn't have before and that's good
[1186.32 --> 1193.44]  um and then other people it changes their whole world i'm gonna take a break here in a minute or so
[1193.44 --> 1199.44]  to to cover a sponsor but before we do that i want to ask you one question and then dive deep into
[1199.44 --> 1205.20]  what you're doing at bridge foundry and the question is since you mentioned it uh the love
[1205.20 --> 1210.54]  moment with programming at what point can you remember when did you fall in love with it and you're
[1210.54 --> 1214.66]  like i'm never leaving this this is my thing this is what i'm doing what was that moment for you
[1214.66 --> 1223.34]  well i think it's interesting because i always loved doing it but i didn't value it and i think
[1223.34 --> 1230.52]  that um i always felt when i was um a kid and programming that it was like doing a crossword
[1230.52 --> 1235.92]  puzzle or like those i used to always love those blacksmith puzzles where they're physical puzzles and
[1235.92 --> 1244.02]  you try to get the you try to kind of unhook the the loops from each other um but i never occurred to
[1244.02 --> 1256.90]  me that i could or should spend my day job doing something that was so fun and i i i believe that
[1256.90 --> 1263.12]  like kind of i was inculcated and maybe it was just how things were in the 80s like if you were going to
[1263.12 --> 1270.20]  do something meaningfully for with your life that that wasn't necessarily something that could be as
[1270.20 --> 1277.94]  so joyful and so i assumed that it was something that i would just have to do in my spare time
[1277.94 --> 1285.50]  periodically just for entertainment um and that i couldn't connect it to um something that would be
[1285.50 --> 1290.32]  actually meaningful in the world um which i think was terribly short-sighted because of course computers
[1290.32 --> 1296.02]  can even then like could affect pretty positive change in the world but um but i wasn't really exposed
[1296.02 --> 1303.34]  to that i wasn't exposed to how powerful computers could be solving real important problems that was
[1303.34 --> 1309.56]  you know for whatever reason that wasn't something that i was exposed to until you know i was in my 20s
[1309.56 --> 1314.92]  i guess on that note let's take a quick break we'll hear from from uh one of our awesome sponsors
[1314.92 --> 1320.22]  making this show possible and when we get back we're going to talk about bridge foundry so we'll be right back
[1320.22 --> 1326.86]  you've heard me talk about top towel several times in this podcast but today is different i've got a
[1326.86 --> 1333.16]  special treat for you i went out and spoke with a listener who a year ago had never heard of top towel
[1333.16 --> 1338.68]  he listened to the show just like you're doing right here right now today and heard us talk about
[1338.68 --> 1344.26]  top towel and what they're all about and he decided to get in touch and now he's living the dream as a
[1344.26 --> 1349.62]  freelance software developer with top towel his name is daniel alzon and i sat down and i talked with him i said
[1349.62 --> 1356.80]  hey what is it that you love most about top towel take a listen well for me the the thing about top towel
[1356.80 --> 1362.78]  which i thought would be very hard for me personally as i transitioned to a more consulting role
[1362.78 --> 1368.76]  uh was the way i would have access to new clients and what quality of those would be
[1368.76 --> 1375.22]  so i found that i've had access to awesome clients through top towel and it hasn't been that hard to
[1375.22 --> 1380.96]  find because they have a lot of choice and even more than that uh there's enough choice and i i can
[1380.96 --> 1386.84]  actually be a little selective about what kinds of things i want to be working on so i use that as a
[1386.84 --> 1392.82]  way to sort of hone my skills and you know go towards the technology that i think are worth investing in
[1392.82 --> 1398.40]  for the future so whether it's you know including new front-end frameworks or doing a little devops
[1398.40 --> 1404.46]  work on the side i i usually am able to find clients who are have the needs of the things i want to get
[1404.46 --> 1410.94]  better at so that's been that's been truly useful all right that was daniel alzon a listener of the
[1410.94 --> 1417.86]  change log and also a freelance software developer with top towel if you want to follow in daniel's
[1417.86 --> 1427.58]  footsteps go to top towel.com slash developers that's t-o-p-t-a-l.com slash developers to learn
[1427.58 --> 1434.22]  more about what top towel is all about and tell them the change log sent you all right we're back
[1434.22 --> 1440.66]  bridge foundry i'm excited about this because i've heard so much from beverly about the work you guys do
[1440.66 --> 1448.22]  um there's we had sarah may on the show episode 146 so for those listening we'll have that link in
[1448.22 --> 1453.98]  the show notes but it's easy to type in changelaw.com slash 146 uh we talked about particularly in that
[1453.98 --> 1459.34]  show we talked about minding the gap we also talked about uh a little bit of of bridge foundry but also
[1459.34 --> 1466.10]  rails bridge and this outreach and this education and uh serving the underrepresented um where should we
[1466.10 --> 1472.20]  begin the conversation around bridge foundry well maybe begin with the the the core workshops that
[1472.20 --> 1478.92]  you know that's really the thing that took off and has made this organization grow um we had this
[1478.92 --> 1487.70]  insight that um when we started it was about um really overcoming gender diversity in the ruby community
[1487.70 --> 1494.76]  and that you know very simple insight that maybe if we wanted women to more women in our community we
[1494.76 --> 1503.48]  should teach them the technology that we're using and i um had done a lot of reading on the statistics
[1503.48 --> 1514.72]  and knew that um in that in proprietary software in corporations typically you see um about 20 to 25
[1514.72 --> 1522.28]  percent women programmers um in open source you see two to three percent women programmers or women
[1522.28 --> 1529.06]  contributors of any kind it's kind of even worse than you know um not just having women programmers but
[1529.06 --> 1536.38]  now women in the community and um but if you do the math and i knew sort of roughly how bit how many
[1536.38 --> 1543.86]  ruby programmers there were um it was likely and probably still is today that there are more women
[1543.86 --> 1550.22]  programmers in the bay area than there are ruby programmers so i figured hey if we could just convert some
[1550.22 --> 1556.64]  of them it would be easy to get 50 50 easy yeah i say in quotes um to have 50 50 women and men in the
[1556.64 --> 1560.04]  ruby community and if you start with a small community you can do really powerful things
[1560.04 --> 1564.80]  um so we start with this idea well let's just teach women and sarah was really passionate about
[1564.80 --> 1571.34]  um teaching people who couldn't code um and so i said okay you teach that class i'll teach the
[1571.34 --> 1577.10]  um women programmers because i feel like i'm going to get to like a quicker outcome of actually having
[1577.10 --> 1584.26]  one peers if i start with women java developers or women c sharp developers or whatever um and we
[1584.26 --> 1591.70]  thought it would be really hard to find women um to take this workshop that we had dreamed up and um
[1591.70 --> 1597.80]  we spent like three weeks uh trying to figure out where we were going to post this and we um we both
[1597.80 --> 1603.02]  tweeted about it and she posted on this mailing list called um san francisco women of the web and in less
[1603.02 --> 1610.64]  than 24 hours we had a wait list wow and back i mean you guys might remember this was i i think 2007
[1610.64 --> 1622.56]  and it was common for people to say um oh maybe women don't want a code you know this is this arcane
[1622.56 --> 1628.62]  thing and it just might be that there are fewer women who are interested and the fact that we had
[1628.62 --> 1633.32]  these workshops and we'd had them um we had them every other month and there was always a wait list
[1633.32 --> 1641.88]  and in san francisco we've just consistently had 20 to 60 person wait lists for these events that we've
[1641.88 --> 1651.18]  been having for like seven years um it's unbelievable so really in in just a few months people stopped saying
[1651.18 --> 1659.18]  that demand was a problem and it really transformed how people thought about um you know the problems
[1659.18 --> 1666.44]  with diversity um but and it really changed how you know kind of i felt as a woman in the field like i
[1666.44 --> 1675.10]  stopped um i would just routinely be in these groups with um you know 50 women coding and coming from
[1675.10 --> 1680.80]  like some of them were amazing technologists who just didn't happen to know rails and um and it was
[1680.80 --> 1685.30]  really fun and really transformative for me personally i think as well as for the community
[1685.30 --> 1690.26]  um and if you hear sarah may talk she she gave this great presentation in december of that year
[1690.26 --> 1697.04]  where um we were both keeping stats of the ruby meetups and they went from three percent women to 18
[1697.04 --> 1703.72]  percent women in um less than six months so tell me something sarah about how you made the jump to
[1703.72 --> 1708.46]  because this is something that people have asked me not only how you made the jump from doing just rails
[1708.46 --> 1713.22]  to bridge foundry is now offering um and you can probably name them i know we've got the mobile
[1713.22 --> 1719.18]  bridge i know we've got uh most recently an angular i believe um but how did you how did that go from
[1719.18 --> 1724.54]  just one particular technology to others and then i'm curious about how people if they say i want to do
[1724.54 --> 1729.56]  this for example i want to bring a new technology to my area you know what would i what would i do what
[1729.56 --> 1735.74]  are the next steps for that that's a great question um actually from the get-go we it was sort of
[1735.74 --> 1740.80]  controversial that we we called that rails bridge because we um one of the other projects that we
[1740.80 --> 1750.72]  started at the time i was um teaching ruby to um uh to kids um elementary school students and um but
[1750.72 --> 1754.84]  we decided to call it rails bridge because it was really grew out of people in the rails community
[1754.84 --> 1763.32]  that wanted to change things and we didn't think of it from the get-go is only about rails the reason
[1763.32 --> 1767.30]  we picked rails for the workshops is not only that was the most of what sarah and i were doing
[1767.30 --> 1774.16]  but it was very hot at the time to be doing rails and it's not like like now there's been a lot of
[1774.16 --> 1782.88]  kind of learn to code marketing um you know president obama um has given you know mentioned this a lot
[1782.88 --> 1789.32]  and we've had a lot of um new organizations really promote the value of learning to code
[1789.32 --> 1796.60]  um but that was not at all true uh when we started so it was really important to latch on to something
[1796.60 --> 1806.58]  that had its own momentum and um but what we did very intentionally is we made all of the materials
[1806.58 --> 1816.66]  open source and we said hey anybody can take these materials do what you want and the only um
[1816.66 --> 1823.64]  guideline we set is that if in order to call it a rails bridge workshop it has to be free and it has
[1823.64 --> 1830.32]  to be targeted at outreaching to some community that's underrepresented in tech which turns out to
[1830.32 --> 1837.52]  be like the majority of people in the world so it's not that hard um but what we saw is all of
[1837.52 --> 1844.22]  these spinoff groups so um there were like three different python groups there was pystar there was um
[1844.22 --> 1851.34]  the boston python workshops which is very um popular and they did a great job in reaching out to the python
[1851.34 --> 1857.66]  community and actually um create i think the individuals who did that had um transformative effects
[1857.66 --> 1863.76]  in you know affecting conference speakers and in a lot of different ripple effects that were very
[1863.76 --> 1871.30]  exciting to see um and we actually have a funny story because i did a workshop in cambridge um i think
[1871.30 --> 1877.42]  in our first year but it didn't really catch on in the boston ruby community until after the boston python
[1877.42 --> 1883.40]  workshops and then they were so inspired by seeing the boston python workshops that we um ended up with a
[1883.40 --> 1890.86]  boston ruby community that's very very strong um and so really from the beginning we had a vision of it
[1890.86 --> 1899.22]  being um any technology but i think because we had rails in the name people who were coming from a
[1899.22 --> 1904.10]  different technology that was you know substantively different than rails felt like they needed to
[1904.10 --> 1909.20]  create their own separate organization and so we saw that happening and we really saw that there was
[1909.20 --> 1916.96]  this potential for really sharing um you know what i call the meta stuff you know the the how to make a
[1916.96 --> 1926.90]  workshop and and the teaching guidelines and um they this sort of viral workshop phenomenon um is
[1926.90 --> 1935.20]  something that is transcends the technology so a few years ago we decided to um create bridge foundry as
[1935.20 --> 1941.02]  which is really just a renaming of the umbrella organization that we'd always envisioned to house
[1941.02 --> 1947.56]  things that were not just rails and then renaming rails bridge to be just the workshop component of it
[1947.56 --> 1952.82]  that was focused on the rails workshops and we're still in the midst of that refactor because we still
[1952.82 --> 1957.24]  do front-end workshops that are under rails bridge and you know things like that we're still sorting
[1957.24 --> 1965.12]  things out but um but it's pretty easy to um create a new bridge we have um closure bridge really
[1965.12 --> 1970.20]  took off in the last year that's closure with a j which is really exciting to have a functional
[1970.20 --> 1977.82]  language join the family because i feel like if you learn um a functional language and an object-oriented
[1977.82 --> 1983.98]  language and a web application framework you kind of have the a bunch of the key components that you
[1983.98 --> 1991.92]  need to um be a powerful software developer today and then um with mobile bridge um i think that also
[1991.92 --> 1999.90]  kind of rounds out the family where people are learning um native code um and device code with java and
[1999.90 --> 2010.40]  um objective c so um so to start a new bridge you just email hello at bridge foundry.org we're working on
[2010.40 --> 2018.80]  having the guidelines be posted um but the best way to get a sense of um how it works is to go to
[2018.80 --> 2024.30]  uh one of these bridge workshops wherever you are and if you want to check one out you can go to
[2024.30 --> 2034.28]  bridgetroll.org and um most of the um different technologies post their workshops there and um
[2034.28 --> 2039.14]  and the process is pretty easy basically we'll have a conversation about like do you really understand
[2039.14 --> 2043.60]  like the what we're trying to do here because it's most of it's written down but it's written down in a
[2043.60 --> 2049.42]  lot of different places and we're working on ways to make that kind of the the documentation be more
[2049.42 --> 2055.16]  comprehensive so a lot of it is transmitted through kind of the oral tradition about talking about the
[2055.16 --> 2060.82]  mission and do you understand it and um are you going to move things forward in this direction and if
[2060.82 --> 2070.18]  we if we're aligned in philosophy then um you then fork um one of the different um organizations on
[2070.18 --> 2076.78]  github and um angular bridge did this most recently by just forking the mobile bridge materials
[2076.78 --> 2086.82]  and um we have a very collaborative process we like the um the github issues um mechanism yeah for um
[2086.82 --> 2096.46]  sharing openly and so even though i think it's i don't love calling workshops issues yes stories i i you
[2096.46 --> 2103.64]  know i wish we were using um i wish github would change their nomenclature um not only for um for
[2103.64 --> 2109.10]  that before for sure but also for open source projects everything isn't an issue um but anyhow
[2109.10 --> 2116.70]  we use that and it's very easy to tag people and it's completely transparent so anybody can come
[2116.70 --> 2123.38]  join the organizing team for workshop and um i i think that's a real that's a breakthrough that um
[2123.38 --> 2128.58]  rachel myers innovated and then all of the different um bridges are starting to um
[2128.58 --> 2134.10]  uh use those techniques which i think is really exciting and that's been super helpful for me as
[2134.10 --> 2139.84]  well because i actually was tagged on something for a rails bridge that was regionally close to me but
[2139.84 --> 2144.28]  not necessarily in my state or even in my town but it was something that i could provide assistance on
[2144.28 --> 2148.82]  and because everything is transparent it's not stuck in someone's email box so this collaboration
[2148.82 --> 2154.16]  is you know it's truly a community helping to organize these workshops and um something else
[2154.16 --> 2158.50]  that i think is really nice is all the curriculum is open source so people can contribute to it and
[2158.50 --> 2165.00]  they can i've seen lots of rails bridge forks in the past for the curriculum there and so um i think
[2165.00 --> 2169.94]  that's been really helpful to see that and something else i was going to ask you to share sarah is that
[2169.94 --> 2175.00]  this is really a culmination of the stone soup illustration that you've shared on your blog before because
[2175.00 --> 2179.50]  we're all bringing what we have as a talent and essentially to really better the community and
[2179.50 --> 2185.06]  and to teach them um do you mind sharing how that's really manifested with the stone soup illustration
[2185.06 --> 2191.20]  yeah absolutely i mean i feel like often um putting a workshop together is like that it's very
[2191.20 --> 2198.42]  intimidating i mean to put on an event especially because most of our volunteers are developers they're
[2198.42 --> 2204.22]  individual contributors who um know how to write code and they're inspired to share what they know
[2204.22 --> 2212.08]  but most of them have not put on an event or approached a company about donating space or
[2212.08 --> 2217.92]  you know god forbid talk to ask for somebody for money for sponsoring something and so each of these
[2217.92 --> 2227.90]  things seems a big big hurdle and often all we need is somebody to say okay i will organize it and then um
[2227.90 --> 2234.02]  and then it's much easier for somebody to help than it is for somebody to do and i think this
[2234.02 --> 2243.00]  was most it was best illustrated by um somebody i got a tweet one day from um uh i can't remember who
[2243.00 --> 2248.82]  was first whether it was liana leahy or um mary tolbert from boston who said hey how do we have a
[2248.82 --> 2252.60]  rails bridge workshop in boston this was the very first one that actually took place in cambridge
[2252.60 --> 2261.08]  um and i said well my family's there if you organize a workshop then i'll come teach and
[2261.08 --> 2268.60]  based on that you know i was like i'll bring a rock let's make soup there you know we found
[2268.60 --> 2275.58]  tas um space all of the things came together and every single person who was involved some
[2275.58 --> 2282.52]  some people did an awful lot of work but it's that impetus somebody has to say okay i will step
[2282.52 --> 2290.10]  up i will bring the first space or i will be the first teacher i will um you know in the case of a
[2290.10 --> 2293.28]  new bridge i will write some pot like lunch or something like that you know it's like everybody
[2293.28 --> 2300.70]  brings something and everybody eats exactly many hands make light work yes yes for sure well that's neat
[2300.70 --> 2308.42]  um i guess another question i i have for you is is uh your passion for the underrepresented
[2308.42 --> 2316.04]  um not only uh gender-based or race-based but even down to children you love kids
[2316.04 --> 2321.26]  yeah i mean a lot of it doesn't love kids right who doesn't love kids well some people don't
[2322.12 --> 2328.48]  um i have a child i have a boy child which is also comes from one like i didn't want to do things
[2328.48 --> 2331.84]  just for girls because i would never want to do something that he couldn't be a part of
[2331.84 --> 2344.40]  um and i also see how there's true i i by no means ever want to diminish anyone's enthusiasm for doing
[2344.40 --> 2351.86]  this great work but if you have a boy child there's actually fewer things these days um to bring them to
[2351.86 --> 2358.34]  to get them enthusiastic about technology because there's a lot of girls only programs now but there
[2358.34 --> 2366.12]  um are you know there are fewer programs um that are inclusive of boys which is kind of an odd
[2366.12 --> 2374.68]  thing um because i mean only 10 years ago that all the things were um were not even if they weren't
[2374.68 --> 2381.20]  targeted at boys they feel that way if it's going to be mostly boys um so i think we just need to
[2381.20 --> 2388.10]  be balanced in our approach and make it so that these these opportunities are available for everyone
[2388.10 --> 2397.78]  um and i'm also very painfully aware that a lot of the work we do is really available to people who are
[2397.78 --> 2406.08]  quite well off um it you know again not to diminish the fact that there is very real sexism in the world
[2406.08 --> 2413.82]  and there are a lot of women who you know maybe um they have a lot of resources but they still can't
[2413.82 --> 2421.88]  find a job because of barriers in the workplace um but then there are people who um have the aptitude
[2421.88 --> 2429.50]  for this work and they don't have a laptop can't come to a workshop and um when we were doing the very
[2429.50 --> 2436.22]  first year of rails bridge i was really struck by like is this the work that i want to be doing with
[2436.22 --> 2445.72]  my life like teaching coding to um you know people with of privilege um and a very good friend of mine
[2445.72 --> 2453.20]  david bogarts um who i know from high school said to me well maybe what you're doing is you're first
[2453.20 --> 2462.54]  doing this work in the community that you know the people that you are most like and most have access
[2462.54 --> 2471.92]  to and um and then if you're successful and you know in you make this transformative you will then
[2471.92 --> 2478.30]  have a whole lot of volunteers who can then take this further and it's very very exciting to start seeing
[2478.30 --> 2485.96]  that now um there's a volunteer here in san francisco michelle glauser who's um looking at
[2485.96 --> 2492.90]  you know are there places in san francisco and we've identified a few of them that are teaching
[2492.90 --> 2502.54]  um like word and excel and powerpoint to people who don't have computers and maybe there's an
[2502.54 --> 2508.28]  opportunity for partnership there maybe we could um you know teach coding classes in their lab
[2508.30 --> 2517.60]  labs um because i think that um we have to go beyond just teaching people to write words on
[2517.60 --> 2527.20]  computers um i think this just such an opportunity to broaden our group of makers to all the people in
[2527.20 --> 2534.36]  the world and if we don't do that we will not solve the problems that we need to solve to fix
[2534.36 --> 2540.74]  the um the planet we're on uh or all the damage we're doing to the planet we're on i should say
[2540.74 --> 2545.34]  i'm reminded that every day you know i don't know about you but i watch vice news on hbo here once
[2545.34 --> 2551.58]  in a while and they had this episode recently about uh this myth called global warming uh i'm not sure
[2551.58 --> 2556.90]  which side of the fence you stand on but it seems so scientifically clear and so visibly clear that we
[2556.90 --> 2562.36]  have some serious issues and they may or not be able to be solved by us by reducing carbon emissions
[2562.36 --> 2566.90]  and things like that but there is a problem and there is something to be to be solved there and
[2566.90 --> 2572.76]  yet people can still turn a blind eye to this changing earth we're on and still do crazy stuff
[2572.76 --> 2579.76]  uh you know adjacent to that was a topic in india and how they have really poor sewage system
[2579.76 --> 2585.62]  and they have how they have public defecation like it's crazy how there's such severe conditions in the
[2585.62 --> 2594.04]  world and we're just you know i guess bubbled people say privileged and i'm i'm almost i'm weary
[2594.04 --> 2599.18]  of that because i know i'm privileged but at the same time there's some things in my past because i'm
[2599.18 --> 2606.76]  white i'm a male um but i grew up poor i should not be here where i'm at today and if i told you my
[2606.76 --> 2611.82]  story you'd cry but i got a crazy story and it wasn't privileged my whole life even though i'm white
[2611.82 --> 2616.44]  and i'm a male and i feel like we're in these bubbles you know it's like you said touch the
[2616.44 --> 2620.40]  people you can that you have most access to once you've proven the concept or proven your
[2620.40 --> 2627.18]  your ability move on to or have a ton of volunteers to to go to the next step yeah i'm really glad you
[2627.18 --> 2632.38]  said that because and thank you for um kind of sharing a little bit of your personal story
[2632.38 --> 2638.82]  because i mean that's one of the things that i'm always um so moved by the people who attend these
[2638.82 --> 2647.48]  workshops um one of the things that we always do is um provide coffee in the morning and snacks and
[2647.48 --> 2653.36]  lunch and we have an after party where the volunteers get drink tickets and everybody goes out and
[2653.36 --> 2659.84]  socializes and that's really i've always thought that was important because it keeps people there
[2659.84 --> 2667.34]  in this social environment um but after one workshop we got this feedback of somebody who said
[2667.34 --> 2676.24]  that they um would not have been able to afford to eat except that the food was provided and so
[2676.24 --> 2682.66]  it was very it was incredible to them because it was such an equalizer whereas normally you know if
[2682.66 --> 2687.30]  they go they either have to not eat or you know everybody else goes out to eat and they can't join
[2687.30 --> 2694.34]  and um i i remember writing this blog post post called the psychology of abundance
[2694.34 --> 2699.38]  abundance and i think that's so important for creating a great learning environment
[2699.38 --> 2706.56]  is not feeling you know this desperate feeling of like of scarcity right i think that that inhibits
[2706.56 --> 2716.88]  our creativity and for to just for one day to give everybody that feeling of there's food here for me there are
[2716.88 --> 2724.96]  people here for me i've got all the things and the only thing that i have to overcome is that very
[2724.96 --> 2734.80]  challenging gap from what i don't know to what i do know and um i can i get i get the same everything
[2734.80 --> 2740.02]  as everybody else for this one day and i think that that's just such a precious thing i'd like i wish
[2740.02 --> 2746.14]  everybody in the world had that yeah i think that's something um that is really tremendous about the
[2746.14 --> 2751.12]  workshops is that it really is an equalizer and one of the things that's really great about the whole
[2751.12 --> 2756.12]  stone soup concept and everybody in your area giving what you can or doing what you can for your local
[2756.12 --> 2763.52]  region you know for example sarah can't do anything in florida um she can but she's not in proximity to
[2763.52 --> 2768.66]  florida i'm i'm here this is a circle that i can impact i'm not in san francisco i can't impact her
[2768.66 --> 2775.04]  circle but she can and one of the things that i i do like is that because we're connected by the
[2775.04 --> 2779.62]  internet because we have these workshops because we have github she's also helped me to be more
[2779.62 --> 2785.66]  sensitive to really the people that we look up to and the heroes that we have and sarah you wrote a
[2785.66 --> 2791.28]  post about being an ally i don't know if you recall that um that started out about talking about being
[2791.28 --> 2796.50]  privileged and things like that i would love it if you'd share more about your experience and and just
[2796.50 --> 2800.34]  focusing on even diversifying your heroes and looking to different people even in different
[2800.34 --> 2806.56]  sectors uh because i think that's tremendous it really helps us to grow i like that post by the
[2806.56 --> 2811.04]  way that was really yeah it's a great post isn't it thanks that actually came out of um
[2811.04 --> 2818.62]  martin luther king day and um every year for mighty verse for the last i don't know three or four years
[2818.62 --> 2824.30]  we do um we've been taking the i have a dream speech and translating it into another language and
[2824.30 --> 2831.20]  doing recordings of different voices and um you know as we all know the past year has been
[2831.20 --> 2842.36]  a rough year for race in america um it has just come i mean i have just such empathy for um you know
[2842.36 --> 2848.22]  people who have a different experience of me and who don't feel safe in their own cities um you know
[2848.22 --> 2853.16]  and as a woman i've you know there's certainly a lot of places that i don't feel safe but um it's just
[2853.16 --> 2860.88]  it can't be compared to being a black person in america and um there was a number of articles the
[2860.88 --> 2869.32]  two weeks before um martin luther king day about the um santa classification of dr martin luther king
[2869.32 --> 2880.16]  and that he's like somehow um you know safe uh black hero and it's and and that there's only certain
[2880.16 --> 2887.28]  speeches and parts of speeches that are retold and that you know the i have a dream speech that has
[2887.28 --> 2894.60]  been at least in some people's um thinking appropriated by um white america and then i was
[2894.60 --> 2901.06]  like oh no i'm doing this um whole thing around i have a dream and i felt it was really important to
[2901.06 --> 2909.62]  write about this other perspective and um and i think that i have this voice which can be heard by
[2909.62 --> 2917.86]  white people easier than um than you know other voices i think we're all get a chance to be change
[2917.86 --> 2922.82]  agents and i think that's sort of the role you play because somebody just said there was that you have
[2922.82 --> 2929.96]  um paraphrasing because it's kind of broke my mind but that you have access to white people's minds i
[2929.96 --> 2935.62]  guess how did you say it well i think that i can be heard or you can be heard okay that's yeah sorry i
[2935.62 --> 2946.50]  don't remember exactly how i said it but that um i think that i am of a culture and
[2946.50 --> 2955.78]  i like even though that in some ways i'm a marginalized um i'm in a marginalized community
[2955.78 --> 2965.22]  in my wider community i'm a woman i have um you know certain attributes i'm now a little older
[2965.22 --> 2974.10]  i i'm a mom like these are things that um you know not everybody who is a software engineer
[2974.10 --> 2982.94]  think highly of but at the same time as i'm marginalized in some circles in other circles
[2982.94 --> 2994.14]  i'm given undue weight and undue respect not undue but uneven you know i i got a computer science degree
[2994.14 --> 3000.60]  i went to an ivy league school i started programming when i was 12 you know like these are all these
[3000.60 --> 3006.42]  attributes that some people i think are overvalued right it's not that i don't think they should be
[3006.42 --> 3012.64]  valued it's just that i think people who taught themselves to code when they're 25 should be as
[3012.64 --> 3019.30]  respected as somebody who went through four years of a cs degree and so we need we need to just take
[3019.30 --> 3026.88]  advantage of the you know the the platforms that we have to um as you say make change
[3026.88 --> 3033.72]  though sarah the one thing i'm noticing though is that you allow the things that marginalize you
[3033.72 --> 3039.26]  to describe you not define you right like you're not boxed in by them they're part of who you are
[3039.26 --> 3045.84]  they don't make up who you are they're not your identity yeah i think it's um i mean it took me a long
[3045.84 --> 3059.30]  time to get to that space um and i think that it's it for a long time i um i worried about um that i was
[3059.30 --> 3066.02]  being like too female a little quiet voice a little shy voice for a long time and that i really tried to
[3066.02 --> 3078.02]  change who i was and how i behaved um so that i would not be um have my ideas um uh boxed in by how
[3078.02 --> 3086.34]  people perceived me and then i think certainly growing up and being a parent and um being a mom
[3086.34 --> 3096.00]  i've grown to really cherish you know these different parts of my me and um luckily uh was able to
[3096.00 --> 3102.34]  seek out people who celebrate the you know how we're all different from each other and that that
[3102.34 --> 3108.56]  and largely through the work of rails bridge and bridge foundry had a chance to meet and interact
[3108.56 --> 3117.46]  with this completely different community that is hundreds of thousands of people inside the software
[3117.46 --> 3124.68]  community that actually values the things that i value and i used to think that it was
[3124.68 --> 3133.42]  0.001 or something like it was so rare for me to interact with people who shared my values that i
[3133.42 --> 3140.04]  thought that it was it was too much for me to expect that i could work with these people that um that i felt
[3140.04 --> 3148.08]  like i had to you know hide my values under a bushel but you know um it's not that way and i think that's
[3148.08 --> 3154.66]  very exciting that's a good uh time to take a pause real quick and hear from a sponsor our uh last bunch of
[3154.66 --> 3159.86]  the show here we'll break for a minute come back beverly's got a pressing question for you that i'm
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[3202.24 --> 3209.70]  all right we're back beverly what uh what do you have on your side over there
[3209.70 --> 3215.24]  the primary question is so i've really benefited from hearing a lot of your experience so if you
[3215.24 --> 3220.82]  are talking to somebody who is in an area who maybe they're not in san francisco maybe they're in a
[3220.82 --> 3225.54]  smaller area north carolina or something like that and they hear this and they're inspired to impact
[3225.54 --> 3231.14]  their area or to make sure that software is more available um and they don't want it to be by chance
[3231.14 --> 3235.50]  what are the things that you would suggest that they do you know where they are like what is an
[3235.50 --> 3240.32]  action step that they could take today to start making themselves uh available to other people or
[3240.32 --> 3245.66]  to serve their community or to make information accessible where they are well i think that um
[3245.66 --> 3251.36]  wherever anybody is there is opportunity to volunteer and reach out and teach what you know
[3251.36 --> 3258.12]  so if you don't if you're excited about this and there's things you don't know and you want to learn
[3258.12 --> 3265.74]  um there's a lot of great online resources but i'm a huge fan of connecting in person with your local
[3265.74 --> 3275.72]  community i think that those ties um can be very very powerful so um there's a lot of different groups
[3275.72 --> 3281.42]  doing this kind of work but i would also encourage you to you know don't be afraid to start things
[3281.42 --> 3293.24]  um there i think just look out at your local meetups go out there and um and check out
[3293.24 --> 3300.84]  all the different things happening in your community and um and the things happening online
[3300.84 --> 3307.18]  and look for the opportunities to meet like-minded people and get yourself a support system too
[3307.18 --> 3313.88]  you know i think that that's really important that um that there's a balance and one of the things
[3313.88 --> 3321.98]  that i've found for myself and i've seen in other people is that by doing this work it gives back
[3321.98 --> 3328.20]  and if you're feeling drained by it then i think you need to strike a balance where you're also getting
[3328.20 --> 3333.88]  support and you're finding a way where you can strike that balance where you're getting
[3333.88 --> 3341.70]  enriched by the work that you do as well as doing it and i think too we sometimes have this vision of
[3341.70 --> 3345.52]  oh i've got to have a workshop with 50 people or i've got to have a workshop with 30 people or
[3345.52 --> 3350.92]  something like that and it's really not true because one of the things that um i remember reading about
[3350.92 --> 3355.28]  your teaching kids rails bridge that was one of the first things when i started teaching kids
[3355.28 --> 3360.58]  that i looked to as a resource because now i teach a monthly tech club for homeschoolers and
[3360.58 --> 3365.44]  we've used some of that material and some of the ideas that you expressed a long time ago in that
[3365.44 --> 3370.28]  in those posts and things and something that people need to realize is they could have a you know
[3370.28 --> 3374.34]  coffee table meetup in fact the first rails bridge workshop it actually probably wasn't an officially
[3374.34 --> 3378.82]  sanctioned workshop but literally there were three of us around a kitchen table and i said let's go
[3378.82 --> 3383.34]  through the curriculum together because you know they wanted to get started they couldn't go for
[3383.34 --> 3387.66]  and and there was no minimum i mean it wasn't an official workshop but you don't have to have
[3387.66 --> 3391.26]  this formal thing the lovely thing about open source is that the curriculum is available
[3391.26 --> 3395.32]  and you can impact your community and you've been such a good example of that of just starting
[3395.32 --> 3401.14]  just doing something and you know uh just being free to go ahead and and try something different
[3401.14 --> 3408.72]  and impact your community that way yeah i would also underscore that there there need be no official
[3408.72 --> 3416.02]  sanction correct if it's free if you're doing it in your community um and you're teaching others it's a
[3416.02 --> 3423.54]  you know you can um use all the materials and do the work and um it's a wonderful thing and absolutely
[3423.54 --> 3430.68]  um and yeah and i started teaching kids just you know my kids elementary school and um doing things
[3430.68 --> 3435.40]  small scale first the other thing that's great about teaching kids and i would highly recommend
[3435.40 --> 3442.82]  is i taught i practiced the lessons with my kid and two of his friends and then i let them be
[3442.82 --> 3454.64]  um ta's and kids getting kids to teach kids i think is the most amazing thing because they will learn
[3454.64 --> 3460.86]  so much through teaching and giving them that responsibility is um i think the best thing that
[3460.86 --> 3465.50]  you can give to them and they have no fear that was something that you shared with me after we had our
[3465.50 --> 3471.02]  rails bridge team and my kind of post notes debrief as i was going through it was like they were willing
[3471.02 --> 3476.62]  to experiment and try in ways that the adults were not and we hadn't entirely every it was under 18
[3476.62 --> 3482.20]  it was uh roughly 7th to 12th graders who did the rails big workshop and it was amazing it was amazing
[3482.20 --> 3485.14]  to see and then they would help each other and then they would teach each other a little bit it was
[3485.14 --> 3490.34]  really really amazing to see that kids kids are so awesome
[3490.34 --> 3500.08]  uh so sarah i've been uh it was sort of last minute too as i'm prepping the notes to to prepare
[3500.08 --> 3504.42]  for this call i was thinking you know what would be a profound question to ask you in addition to some
[3504.42 --> 3508.36]  of our awesome closing questions we'll ask you as well but what's a good profound question that i
[3508.36 --> 3514.24]  can ask you that would get something futuristic to get you to hypothesize about the future or what
[3514.24 --> 3519.26]  isn't there that should be there and the question is what's missing in software that you wish was there
[3519.26 --> 3524.14]  that either you're actively trying to add or hope to one day be able to add
[3524.14 --> 3533.06]  software community not just tech wise but just in this space we're in open source things you're involved
[3533.06 --> 3540.12]  in yeah i think that's a good question um i think there's um like a few different angles on it
[3540.12 --> 3549.24]  i think um the biggest thing that's um missing in the world today um is great places to work
[3549.26 --> 3560.96]  um i have been really um fortunate in working with really amazing teams um and largely because i sought
[3560.96 --> 3567.88]  them out i think that there's a lot of people who um i talk to women all the time who um are leaving
[3567.88 --> 3574.22]  the workforce um not the workforce just leaving computing um they've decided they they or they're
[3574.22 --> 3581.60]  coming back through the workshops right um so i think that the biggest thing that we need
[3581.60 --> 3586.76]  is workplaces where people respect each other regardless of what they look like or their
[3586.76 --> 3593.88]  backgrounds um or how they came to be computer programmers and um and i think we need this
[3593.88 --> 3599.58]  everywhere right this is not just a problem amongst um software developers but i think we have a
[3599.58 --> 3609.30]  unique opportunity in tech to fix it because people the entry points are so low in terms of
[3609.30 --> 3615.36]  um not having to have a formalized background to get into it it still takes a lot of hard work to get
[3615.36 --> 3623.50]  into it but um but i think we have a tremendous opportunity to transform the workplace into a place
[3623.50 --> 3628.46]  where people actually respect each other regardless of their background so that's the biggest thing
[3628.46 --> 3638.38]  that is not missing but not as ubiquitous as i think it should be and then the other thing which i think ties
[3638.38 --> 3652.14]  into the entry point um is that i think that every computer and every device should come with software that lets you hack it
[3652.14 --> 3664.06]  um i think that um it should not be uh it shouldn't require you to install extra stuff to um write simple code that controls
[3664.06 --> 3670.70]  your computer or your device so does that mean that you're pro android and anti-apple
[3670.70 --> 3682.12]  i well i'm a big fan of um apple's uh software and hardware uh but it is um i think steve wozniak
[3682.12 --> 3689.00]  um had a great influence on the early mac and early apple and um and i think that
[3689.00 --> 3696.34]  something's been lost there that ios must upset you then to a degree because like it does take
[3696.34 --> 3701.38]  a computer and extra software to do anything with it like you can't do much from the actual device
[3701.38 --> 3706.36]  well it's bigger than that it was actually against their terms of service to develop
[3706.36 --> 3718.08]  any app that allowed the end user to code until like a year or two ago so apple creates policies
[3718.08 --> 3729.62]  that makes it harder for third-party developers to make this accessible and you know that's changing
[3729.62 --> 3736.22]  but um but it needs to change more so for those who are long-time listeners of the show know that
[3736.22 --> 3740.64]  we have a few questions we like to ask the end of the show we're gonna ask two today uh we're not
[3740.64 --> 3745.80]  going to do several of them uh but one i want to ask you in particular that sort of contrast against
[3745.80 --> 3752.12]  something you might say in response uh to your on being an ally post when you said name your heroes
[3752.12 --> 3758.00]  and you said seriously make a list of your top 10 if they were mostly one race class or gender find
[3758.00 --> 3762.48]  some more heroes and we have a question we like to ask people which is who's your programming hero
[3762.48 --> 3766.46]  i i guess we can open that up to be any hero but i'd like to see if you can name 10
[3766.46 --> 3773.90]  um well i'll name six actually i don't know all of their names um but the my programming heroes are
[3773.90 --> 3785.00]  the women who program the eniac so um in 1945 um there were two um engineers who created um one of
[3785.00 --> 3794.58]  the first maybe the first digital computer which was the eniac and they um it was built to um solve
[3794.58 --> 3803.56]  these um parabolic equations to uh i think they were they would to do the trajectory of a um of the
[3803.56 --> 3812.04]  ballistics uh you know for the for world war ii and before the computer they had um women who they
[3812.04 --> 3820.42]  would hire um who were math majors they they um recruited to use slide rules to create these books
[3820.42 --> 3826.46]  of um you know sort of you would you would have like the angle that the gun was pointed and what kind
[3826.46 --> 3831.82]  of munition it was and like the wind speed and these different um inputs and then it would say
[3831.82 --> 3839.80]  um like how they would would set up um these uh you know the the guns in order to point the artillery
[3839.80 --> 3850.72]  at the enemy and um in actually in the early um 1900s they um they would call these women who would
[3850.72 --> 3857.50]  do math computers there's a great book called if computers were human or when computers were human sorry
[3857.50 --> 3865.56]  anyhow um they took six of the best computers and they told them that they had a new assignment for
[3865.56 --> 3874.58]  them and they gave them the wiring diagrams the schematics of the computer and of the new machine
[3874.58 --> 3882.54]  and they said that they needed to figure out how to wire up the inputs and outputs in order to make
[3882.54 --> 3887.86]  it do the same calculations that they had been doing the slide rules and these six women were the
[3887.86 --> 3896.70]  very first programmers um and i was just i'm looking up um kay mcnulty and um jean jennings
[3896.70 --> 3903.48]  um invented the subroutine um which was like oh we won't have to plug in these wires to make these
[3903.48 --> 3909.82]  connections as many times we could reuse this um little bit of logic and um you know they invented
[3909.82 --> 3916.54]  loops and all of these you know sort of very common programming structures today that um they were
[3916.54 --> 3923.06]  doing programming by like connecting you know wires to sockets and i think those are my heroes they were
[3923.06 --> 3932.44]  doing things that were actually hard and then um after we know when all this stuff became public um
[3932.44 --> 3938.58]  they were not even mentioned in any of the articles that's not cool that's not cool that's not cool
[3938.58 --> 3946.22]  what's very exciting is um 50 years later um kathy klyman did a whole lot of research and surfaced
[3946.22 --> 3952.76]  these stories and um in the last 10 years there's been a number of articles about this amazing work
[3952.76 --> 3959.94]  that these women did and um and i just love to hear about the early days of um you know women and men
[3959.94 --> 3965.12]  when they were you know inventing things and creating things that now we take for granted
[3965.12 --> 3970.64]  so we have one other question that we wanted to ask to sarah and that is um and i know a little
[3970.64 --> 3975.30]  bit of this because i'm already involved somewhat with bridge foundry but uh even if you're not
[3975.30 --> 3978.94]  somebody who's going to ta you don't necessarily have a technology that you want to put forward and
[3978.94 --> 3983.90]  you want to go ahead and share what would you say is a good call to arms for bridge foundry or if
[3983.90 --> 3987.84]  somebody wants to step in and help and maybe they're a designer or maybe they're just a community
[3987.84 --> 3991.74]  innovator like i have a friend who's really great at just planning parties and so she's really good at
[3991.74 --> 3996.04]  helping with workshops because she's good at the logistics um what would you say to someone like
[3996.04 --> 4001.22]  that are some uh things that they should see about contributing to or ways that they might be able to
[4001.22 --> 4005.22]  help their community even if they're not a programmer and they aren't starting a new workshop or creating
[4005.22 --> 4013.36]  curriculum well i think that there's we need all the things right that um people who can organize
[4013.36 --> 4021.10]  logistics and organize events are precious and amazing people and um there's it turns out that
[4021.10 --> 4026.76]  we've had an easier time finding teachers and tas than the other skills and maybe it's because you
[4026.76 --> 4032.20]  know we're finding people who are like us and that's always easier but um you know and or maybe
[4032.20 --> 4038.14]  we're just not you know getting the word out effectively but um but the people who know who are willing
[4038.14 --> 4044.56]  to step up and you know do the logistics side of things and put up events and um and the other thing
[4044.56 --> 4050.34]  is i think people who are willing to write the stories who are willing to show up at an event and take
[4050.34 --> 4058.02]  photos and write a blog post i believe that if more people even just knew what was happening
[4058.02 --> 4063.70]  with all of these workshops and the programmers teaching programmers and you know people becoming
[4063.70 --> 4072.34]  new programmers every weekend that that would transform the world as much as our doing the work itself
[4072.34 --> 4076.38]  because a lot of it is just like we started talking about the beginning
[4076.38 --> 4083.76]  you know knowing it's possible knowing it's an option is half the battle and making accessible
[4083.76 --> 4089.78]  to everybody that's really that's really the angle yeah making it you know i mean like i look at these i
[4089.78 --> 4095.76]  think about like these you know sort of young musicians who you hear these amazing um young people
[4095.76 --> 4104.40]  you know from all walks of life right who are are coming out of you know poverty or um different
[4104.40 --> 4110.16]  backgrounds where maybe they wouldn't think of um being a programmer and they're so creative i think
[4110.16 --> 4115.92]  those are people who should be like making mobile apps and um i'd like to you know i'd like us to be
[4115.92 --> 4123.74]  reaching everybody well that's uh that's certainly true for sure well it's um it's been a pleasure
[4123.74 --> 4130.30]  having you on the show finally sarah very excited about what you're working on um very awesome for you to
[4130.30 --> 4135.04]  give us your time today to to sort of dive deep not only into some of your passions but also to
[4135.04 --> 4139.92]  share some of your backstory about who you are and what makes ultrasaurus ultrasaurus
[4139.92 --> 4146.90]  i've uh i've been uh very curious about you know who you are and what where you've come from so
[4146.90 --> 4151.42]  i appreciate uh being privileged enough to to sit here and have this conversation with you
[4151.42 --> 4155.82]  and beverly thank you so much for making this possible to just kind of
[4155.82 --> 4160.54]  aligning the stars with us and sarah and just sharing what you do sharing the ways that you work
[4160.54 --> 4166.92]  uh with bridge foundry in your area um is there anything else you want to cover before we tail
[4166.92 --> 4171.32]  off because if not i'm gonna i'm gonna go through our rundown of of going out and that'll be it
[4171.32 --> 4180.40]  oh i think just one more plug um we would love to have more open source contributors to bridge troll
[4180.40 --> 4187.72]  which is our open source registration system we would love designers and developers people who
[4187.72 --> 4196.28]  want to write up stories of how it's used um or screencasts for new organizers so whatever um part of
[4196.28 --> 4203.40]  um the software development process that you might be excited to contribute with um go to um to github
[4203.40 --> 4209.24]  um in the rails bridge organization there's um a bridge troll repo and um lots of instructions
[4209.24 --> 4215.12]  about how to get started and join our google group and we'd love to have you awesome yeah we talked
[4215.12 --> 4219.46]  about that a little bit on on sarah's show she mentioned the same thing so you guys are in sync
[4219.46 --> 4224.40]  on uh on promoting uh contributions to that so we'll link it up in the show notes for sure
[4224.40 --> 4230.52]  um because that's what we do around here right excellent so just for those who are listening
[4230.52 --> 4237.50]  uh what did i say this episode number was 157 so this is episode 157 go to changelog.com
[4237.50 --> 4242.90]  slash 157 everything we talked about heroes and all will be in there we'll do all the digging for
[4242.90 --> 4247.20]  you don't worry about wrecking your car because you're trying to type down the url it's not going
[4247.20 --> 4253.26]  to happen don't do that just go to our show notes and you'll be taken care of uh thanks to all the
[4253.26 --> 4257.98]  listeners for listening to the show thanks to our sponsors code ship top towel and digital ocean
[4257.98 --> 4264.16]  for being awesome and supporting the show next week we have uh an awesome show as well every every
[4264.16 --> 4270.34]  week is an awesome show single page apps with uh henrik and i i haven't practiced pronouncing his
[4270.34 --> 4276.10]  last name but i think it's jorteg or it's horteg i haven't asked but uh if anybody here knows correct
[4276.10 --> 4281.20]  me please uh but other than that i think that's the end of the show so let's say goodbye everybody
[4281.20 --> 4283.66]  bye-bye thank you so much thank you
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