[0.00 --> 16.24] welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam's dakowiak this is episode 171 [16.24 --> 22.92] and on today's show we're joined by karen meyer the author of living closure she's also known [22.92 --> 28.54] as gigasquid on twitter github and pretty much everywhere else on the interwebs she's speaking [28.54 --> 33.70] soon if you're gonna be at strange loop talking about chemical computing a very interesting [33.70 --> 39.32] conversation we had on this show today she's also the author of babar a little language for machines [39.32 --> 46.40] with speech acts we have three awesome sponsors for the show today code ship imagix and digital [46.40 --> 51.70] ocean our first sponsor for the show today is code ship launching a brand new feature called [51.70 --> 56.96] organizations you've heard me mention it before now you can create teams set permissions for your [56.96 --> 62.96] teams and improve collaboration in your delivery workflows maintain centralized control over your [62.96 --> 68.60] organization's projects as well as your teams with this brand new feature and we want you to save 20 [68.60 --> 75.66] that's huge off any premium plan for three months by using this code the changelog podcast again that [75.66 --> 82.56] code is the changelog podcast head to code ship.com slash the changelog to get started and now on to the show [82.56 --> 95.26] all right everybody we're back today we got karen meyer uh jerry we set up this call through twitter [95.26 --> 101.72] how crazy right it's crazy world out there crazy world so what was going on to invite karen onto the [101.72 --> 110.08] show probably just my interest in closure and um i came across karen i guess i came across her on the [110.08 --> 115.22] top pod podcast over the summer at some point nice shout out to them and then somebody retweeted her or [115.22 --> 120.86] something like that and i said oh that face is familiar and then i checked her bio i was like oh [120.86 --> 126.30] she should come on and talk to talk to us about closure and that was kind of the genesis of it well i'm [126.30 --> 130.64] happy to be here very gracious of you to respond so quickly and be so willing to come on we appreciate [130.64 --> 136.40] it yeah absolutely so karen i guess maybe an easy way to start would be i think your bio says a bit [136.40 --> 142.40] about you being starting in ballet and then physics and then ultimately in software development but [142.40 --> 148.72] when someone asks you kind of who you are what's your response yeah well i i usually just say i'm a [148.72 --> 158.12] i'm a closure developer um because that's what i i do every day and i quite enjoy it and um yeah i guess [158.12 --> 165.56] that pretty much just sums it up i got to it from a very windy path uh like many people uh so i started [165.56 --> 171.06] um i was professional ballet dancer for a couple years right out of high school [171.06 --> 179.36] and that was really cool and i really uh enjoyed it except for uh the starving artist bit which got [179.36 --> 185.28] a little bit old like sleeping on floors with mattresses and cockroaches and things like that [185.28 --> 193.54] so i decided maybe going going to college would be a good idea very pragmatic choice exactly so when i was [193.54 --> 202.78] in um high school i i really i liked physics and math and in particular i had a really nice role model [202.78 --> 208.30] um for my physics instructor she was an awesome woman and so i was super impressed with her and [208.30 --> 213.60] there was this one moment that i always remember in physics that kind of i always went back to i don't [213.60 --> 222.16] know if you did this sort of experiment in in school where you kind of line up ramps that marbles can run on [222.16 --> 228.90] and then you kind of measure everything all out and you predict where the marble will land in in a cup [228.90 --> 236.24] and like i did all the math and everything and release the marble and it landed perfectly in the cup [236.24 --> 244.16] what i was like wow this math physics stuff is awesome yeah i had a similar experience recently at the [244.16 --> 248.98] science center where they had this ramp where you can roll balls down it and if you put it at certain [248.98 --> 255.12] intervals with you know with you know basic multiplication you could determine what um what [255.12 --> 260.00] key it would hit which would make a certain tone and each key down the line got bigger and it was like [260.00 --> 264.84] two four six eight and you know you did the square root of things and that would determine where you would [264.84 --> 272.16] put it at on the ramp and that i mean similar that kind of blew my mind yeah yeah i never had such a [272.16 --> 276.06] great experience maybe that's why i didn't like physics because i didn't have this awesome moment in life [276.06 --> 281.36] why was it amazing that you can do the math and be like we'll put this here and you're gonna hit that [281.36 --> 287.00] key there and you know it's amazing there's a great video of a college professor i think it's a physics [287.00 --> 292.68] professor who i think he sets up like a bowling ball on the end of a chain or something i may have the [292.68 --> 298.40] objects incorrect but he does all the math like you just described karen and he actually swings it from [298.40 --> 304.90] a location at his own face and like he's gonna die or be like seriously injured if the math is wrong [304.90 --> 310.52] and it's great learning moment you know for the class and that's a i saw that on the internet but [310.52 --> 316.36] yeah i never had such a a great moment in physics so that that that that told you that you love math [316.36 --> 321.42] basically yeah yeah so that kind of was a catalyst of where i wanted to stay to went back to um [321.42 --> 326.56] college i i studied physics and really really liked it and then i kind of fell into um [326.56 --> 332.54] computer science after that but i have to ask you if you ever i don't know if i'm completely weird [332.54 --> 337.72] but like whenever i am taking off on planes you know like right at that moment where you just the [337.72 --> 345.86] plane's going really fast and you just start taking off i always say to myself yay math yay math i do [345.86 --> 351.30] because it's so incredible i'm like yay math well yeah because they got to get to a certain speed by a [351.30 --> 358.26] certain distance to actually lift off and some somebody did the math right i know hopefully [358.26 --> 364.86] yeah sometimes it doesn't work that's cool so do you really like do you kind of whisper it a little [364.86 --> 369.40] bit or is it just kind of like an inner voice i'd say it like an inner voice because otherwise people [369.40 --> 374.18] start thinking that you don't say it to the person sitting next to you what well that's a good [374.18 --> 380.48] conversation starter yay math and then you kind of go into who you are what you do yeah i guess it could be [380.48 --> 386.44] oh uh have you uh read this book the martian i'm like the halfway through it right now have you [386.44 --> 392.42] heard about this no so they're making it into a movie um with matt damon yeah yeah yeah and like [392.42 --> 401.36] september october and it's fabulous i mean if you like uh like space stuff math stuff engineer [401.36 --> 408.92] it's just fabulous so it's it's a retelling basically of robinson crusoe on mars like this engineer [408.92 --> 415.52] he gets straight or astronaut he gets stranded there and um strange circumstances of events [415.52 --> 420.94] you know his crew thinks he's dead but he's really not so he has to use all his engineering skills and [420.94 --> 427.30] everything else to like survive on mars and it's a total math and geek fest and it's fabulous so is it [427.30 --> 433.08] really he's really on mars then yeah yeah he's really on mars wow yeah so i totally recommend that [433.08 --> 441.82] i'm sorry so it's you're it's not a true story is that what you're saying jared it's it's i just i [441.82 --> 445.34] had to point that out right i just needed to bring us back to reality there for a second [445.34 --> 452.26] well that's why clarified is he really on mars right but i like it i'm mad even fan i'll check [452.26 --> 458.30] scott movie too oh see night see we just talked about really scott two shows ago with prometheus [458.30 --> 462.92] and see he's falling from grace a little bit with me although adam liked prometheus a lot i liked the [462.92 --> 469.32] name prometheus what about you karen do you like prometheus uh i did not see that so let's have to [469.32 --> 475.08] put that on my list yeah put on your list it's definitely just one of the two home theater if you [475.08 --> 480.38] have home theater do it on home theater don't just watch it on anything just home theater it if you can [480.38 --> 488.90] okay anyways well cool so we got to learn a bit about ballet into physics and some of the [488.90 --> 494.50] appreciation you have for math and whatnot so at what point did you start getting into software [494.50 --> 499.58] development and what was that like for you yeah so i i kind of got into software development doing [499.58 --> 507.80] physics um i started programming in mathematica uh doing computer simulations of um some like [507.80 --> 515.22] simulated annealing and that was like super interesting um so after i graduated uh there [515.22 --> 520.48] was a lot of opportunities for software developers and they were looking for people in just general [520.48 --> 527.20] science fields yeah um so i just kind of fell into it that way and i discovered i really liked [527.20 --> 534.14] um especially the feedback of programming i mean if you think of um a lot of the science experiments [534.14 --> 540.06] you don't have the fast feedback a lot of times but in software development you definitely do and [540.06 --> 547.26] it's a bit artistic too which i really like uh so yeah i did java programming uh ruby programming and [547.26 --> 553.38] then i met closure and i just kind of fell in love with closure and um i've been lucky enough to [553.38 --> 562.38] work in it every day for the past um almost two years so i'm extremely uh happy i still like it [562.38 --> 568.54] so well we definitely want to ask you about closure that's kind of the the thrust of this call but [568.54 --> 572.42] before that i also want to ask you about your internet handle because it's quite unique giga squid [572.42 --> 576.92] yes it's like one of these things that you see it and you can't you can never forget it but i [576.92 --> 583.92] what can you tell us the genesis of that okay so this is like way back in the day um i don't know [583.92 --> 592.22] if you remember this when there was a thing called aol yes aol chat oh yes so uh i was working at a [592.22 --> 600.02] company and during lunch we would all like play half-life together um and so my half-life avatar was [600.02 --> 609.42] um player name was squid so we signed up for um like aol instant messenger and i put in squid as my name [609.42 --> 618.18] and like it was taken i was like darn that's the worst so then i put in mega squid and mega squid [618.18 --> 627.50] was also taken oh man so then finally giga squid was not taken and that's who i was giga squid was born [627.50 --> 632.46] well that's much better alternatives usually people just throw like the year they're born at the end [632.46 --> 637.52] and it's like that's always kind of dorky so i think you did a good job with the prefixes [637.52 --> 642.52] thank you and you've held that handle for a while then too because i mean aol [642.52 --> 649.40] aol days forever ago yeah yeah 20 years maybe i haven't actually yeah i haven't actually been on [649.40 --> 654.70] there for a really long time but it was born it was born there so gotcha [654.70 --> 660.82] awesome well let's get back on the closure here a little bit you fell in love um you've been working [660.82 --> 666.80] with it for two years it sounds like what was it about the language um in your experience that you [666.80 --> 674.64] know turned you on so much yeah i uh i guess i've been asked that before and i never got to a chance [674.64 --> 683.22] to study uh lisp in uh college so i don't know whether it was kind of lisp that i fell in love with [683.22 --> 694.14] or closure but i mean closure gives you access to jvm and java interop and concurrency and all that [694.14 --> 701.40] so i mean right it's pretty sweet um but the simplicity of the language um really really appeals [701.40 --> 707.46] to me so i guess maybe i put the cart before the horse a little bit maybe back up a split second [707.46 --> 712.98] and give the summary of closure we've already known as programming language and like you said it's [712.98 --> 718.48] kind of a lisp can you just kind of give that overall summary sure sure so uh yeah closure is a [718.48 --> 724.96] is a lisp uh so that means it has all these prems and the prems sometimes scare people away [724.96 --> 732.94] but um it really you've just got to like not panic about the prems and they kind of go away [732.94 --> 737.08] after you work in it a while especially with an editor that does matching and automatically [737.08 --> 748.22] inserts it for you they just um you know it it's fine uh so it's a lisp on the jvm uh that's the main [748.22 --> 758.22] language it's a dynamic language it's got uh java interop and it has immutable data structures uh that is [758.22 --> 766.12] really nice for concurrency and also with an area that's really hot in closure land right now is closure [766.12 --> 774.90] which uh closure script is a dialect of closure but it compiles down to javascript and javascript [774.90 --> 782.66] as you know just goes about anywhere nowadays so um there's some really exciting advances uh in that [782.66 --> 789.28] i mean it's hard to keep up with they just uh more stuff's happening every day yeah so i mean just uh [789.28 --> 793.54] just to generalize a little bit and feel free to correct these generalizations but you know you kind [793.54 --> 798.98] of have this divide in uh programming languages between object oriented and functional the lisp [798.98 --> 806.30] language you know the lisp kind of tree of languages um have always been maybe not maybe always is a as a [806.30 --> 813.56] bad word but have kind of had the reputation of being more academic niche um there's always people [813.56 --> 819.14] that love lisps and will always hop into online conversations and tell you how much easier it would [819.14 --> 827.24] be to do in lisp um but overall object oriented has been kind of the dominant paradigm uh the last [827.24 --> 835.20] you know 20 years in programming and yet closure seems to be like super popular so speak to that maybe [835.20 --> 840.86] yeah so i think that's a combination of things um and i think that's because closure has a really [840.86 --> 847.94] practical side as well you know it's it's really concerned about getting the job done and being able [847.94 --> 855.18] to interop um is an important part of that um and being able to run the jvm is is like huge right [855.18 --> 863.68] uh and also there's just really a lot of energy a lot of innovation in the community and it's a really [863.68 --> 871.62] kind community um just a lot of great people so i think that that really has helped its success and [871.62 --> 881.44] also you know rich hickey is is pretty brilliant so that having having him guide our um language [881.44 --> 889.94] uh is is really it's really great um was i was on a project that upgraded from you know one version [889.94 --> 893.58] of closure to the other and all i had to do was change change the version number there was [893.58 --> 900.30] it was totally stable everything was compatible and that's nice that's really unusual that almost [900.30 --> 908.00] never happens right yeah so um so yeah they're really focused on stability and making sure that [908.00 --> 913.66] there's backwards compatibility and the language is moving in the right direction speaking of rich [913.66 --> 919.72] hickey i think adam we have to do a little bit of a shout out yes walters yeah so um devon [919.72 --> 929.44] walters was or is a closure guy who contributed to the changelog back in like 2013 and um he wrote [929.44 --> 933.04] one post for us and it wasn't even a guest post it was like he was going to come on and be you know [933.04 --> 936.88] kind of a more regular writer and you know life happens and whatnot but he wrote a post called rich [936.88 --> 944.44] hickey's greatest hits back in looking at september 16 2013 which is really just a list of like five or [944.44 --> 951.96] six awesome rich hickey talks and that one post was probably the most popular post of the year for [951.96 --> 957.72] us or at least i would almost say all time i would almost say like all time it is i'm i'm guessing here [957.72 --> 964.88] but i might be i see so many shares it's always on twitter like it gets recirculated and people find us [964.88 --> 969.88] because of this yeah years later even i wouldn't i would probably say it's probably the top all time [969.88 --> 975.94] post of the changelog devon's a great guy actually i worked with him um did you about yeah a little [975.94 --> 982.14] bit ago too so he's he's a great guy yeah we're after that post we're like devon you gotta write [982.14 --> 987.40] some more stuff yeah yeah you should he's a smart guy yeah we'll link that one up in the show notes [987.40 --> 994.60] it's kind of become a classic and um yeah rich hickey gives great talks great presenter obviously a very [994.60 --> 999.84] smart man and and uh seemed like he kind of invented closure almost in a vacuum do you know [999.84 --> 1007.28] any of the history of the creation of the language i don't know um his personal um like how he came [1007.28 --> 1014.12] to it all i know that he did work on it uh just solo for quite a bit yeah um before it was presented [1014.12 --> 1021.06] to i think a mailing list and then everybody was like wow this is really cool you know can i help um [1021.06 --> 1030.46] you know make it better so then he had um you know a few uh people just really help put a shine [1030.46 --> 1040.98] on it and bring it to the first version real version so very cool well let's get back to the [1040.98 --> 1045.30] to the language a little bit and one thing that you mentioned was that you said it runs on a jvm and [1045.30 --> 1053.96] that's huge i think is what you said why is that such a big deal just because um the uh the jvm [1053.96 --> 1063.70] is so production hardened and it's so efficient in what it does now after years and years [1063.70 --> 1072.88] that uh it it's just great to be able to run on that sort of platform um and you can see that with [1072.88 --> 1080.88] the explosion of languages that are running within that ecosystem right now like scala and um you [1080.88 --> 1089.62] know jruby and groovy and all the other ones so right yeah and i think that because there are so [1089.62 --> 1094.28] many java developers so many people that are familiar with the jvm um not only is it like [1094.28 --> 1099.44] production ready and hardened and has all these years of you know mind put or thought put into it [1099.44 --> 1106.22] it's just also kind of a comfortable you know uh kind of a not relaxing but just a [1106.22 --> 1111.82] non-confrontational what's the word i'm looking for here adam it's uh it's just an environment [1111.82 --> 1116.90] people are used to where if they're going to be switching you know the way they think about [1116.90 --> 1121.30] programming from an object-oriented mindset to a functional mindset which closure asks you to do [1121.30 --> 1124.88] if you're coming from the other side it's nice to have at least something that's familiar [1124.88 --> 1130.00] i think you're thinking expectations the expectations of working on the jvm are as such [1130.00 --> 1136.96] and because of that you can operate in more of a comfortable calm and uh manner than maybe chaotic [1136.96 --> 1142.34] that you see in the craziness that is open source these days which is the next newest hottest thing [1142.34 --> 1148.68] disrupting the newest hottest thing from yesterday yeah plus right don't you have access to all of the [1148.68 --> 1156.66] the libraries java library yeah yeah there's um there's full java interop um that's for the most [1156.66 --> 1164.54] part wrapper free so it's it's very comfortable to work with um other java classes and libraries [1164.54 --> 1173.16] um so yeah i mean if you're looking for um kind of a low risk kind of try it out you can either you [1173.16 --> 1180.50] carve off a little section and just add a jar and try it there or even in your tests you know you [1180.50 --> 1187.16] could just write some tests and closure and see how it goes um so there's lots of ways to introduce [1187.16 --> 1191.36] it to your team and get used to it when you can just say oh well let's just add this jar [1191.36 --> 1197.92] yeah i mean it sounds like a nice way to to bring up ramp up adoption as well as allowing people to [1197.92 --> 1202.34] dip their toes in the water as opposed to you know completely jumping off or into the pool so to speak [1202.34 --> 1209.62] right right awesome well i think we do want to ask about uh popular use cases like when closure [1209.62 --> 1215.78] makes sense when it doesn't make sense like what is being used for the types of software that you can [1215.78 --> 1221.28] build with closure um we do need to take a sponsor break so let's take a minute here from one of our [1221.28 --> 1226.26] awesome sponsors and when we get back we'll talk about what are the best times to actually use closure [1226.26 --> 1234.48] 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close to a billion with a b images per day [1341.38 --> 1349.10] they're able to make certain optimizations at scale and pass those savings on to you to learn more about [1349.10 --> 1358.88] imagex and what they're all about head to imgix.com once again imgix.com and tell them adam from the [1358.88 --> 1365.56] changelog sent you all right we're back talking about closure with karen meyer and we're interested [1365.56 --> 1372.40] in closure for a few reasons first of all i'm an object-oriented person at least i have been i'm very [1372.40 --> 1378.54] interested in functional i tend to write more and more these days functional style inside of my object [1378.54 --> 1384.88] orientation probably a lot thanks to gary bernhardt and some of his influence on me but also because [1384.88 --> 1390.56] it seems like it's very useful in production applications and so i'm curious like what are [1390.56 --> 1395.48] some awesome use cases for closure how's it being used out there in the wild and maybe even on the [1395.48 --> 1400.46] flip side of that like when is it not a great idea to reach for the language sure well i mean closure [1400.46 --> 1410.74] is a general purpose language so it's good for lots of things um where it really shines is when you [1410.74 --> 1420.46] have to deal with concurrency because uh you have a very composable um simple language it's functional [1420.46 --> 1427.42] and you have mutable data structures and that really just uh lets you handle concurrency very nicely [1427.42 --> 1441.56] um so as a result uh you can see a lot of big companies like banks and financial and retailers i had a lot of [1441.56 --> 1449.42] adoption lately if you if you go to walmart and you get a receipt from walmart your uh receipts are all [1449.42 --> 1457.40] going through a closure program what and that goal that's so crazy yeah so it's it's it's it's it's [1457.40 --> 1465.08] out there and people are using it um in lots of places a big company startups um just everywhere [1465.08 --> 1468.60] it's in the places you may not expect it then [1468.60 --> 1475.46] well yeah like i said it's general purpose so um you could just really use it anywhere [1475.46 --> 1480.42] i just love the idea of this invisible infrastructure that so many people don't have to care about [1480.42 --> 1485.92] and even though we have so many problems with software and security and you know there's tons [1485.92 --> 1491.00] of leaky abstractions out there there's a lot of stuff that's powering you know businesses and [1491.00 --> 1495.84] communities around the world and most people don't even have to have any clue that their receipts from [1495.84 --> 1501.42] walmart are coming through closure but yeah exactly it's pretty cool yeah the kind of nice thing too is [1501.42 --> 1507.74] um now with closure script you can have closure on the front end and on the back end too so you just [1507.74 --> 1512.78] really have a single language that you're working with which um it's kind of nice for me you know [1512.78 --> 1518.76] when i'm developing i don't have to go and switch to javascript or you know copy script or or anything [1518.76 --> 1525.12] for the front end um i can stay within the the same ecosystem so closure script does that work [1525.12 --> 1531.92] pretty much just like any other transpiler would work yeah yeah it uses the um google's and this is [1531.92 --> 1540.12] the unfortunate name uses google's closure compiler but it's like cl right then su but it's you know [1540.12 --> 1548.78] closure and closure which is unfortunate naming namespace collisions cool yeah but yeah yeah it's i think [1548.78 --> 1554.94] it's good for uh just about anything where you wouldn't want to use it uh i could only think maybe [1554.94 --> 1561.70] embedded you know we have really a small uh footprint uh because uh you know the jvm is pretty large [1561.70 --> 1566.86] although that's changing now you know with um with closure script and javascript so if you can get [1566.86 --> 1571.48] small enough to put javascript on there you can probably get small enough to put closure script [1571.48 --> 1578.20] on there as well what about the receipt application that you can think of as an outsider why do you [1578.20 --> 1584.36] think they chose closure over say another way to do reseating for walmart is it because walmart [1584.36 --> 1590.02] is a closure company or is it because that was you know one of the main languages their programmers use [1590.02 --> 1596.58] or is there a reason why that was the best fit for it i i can't talk to their reasons for maybe not [1596.58 --> 1601.56] their reasons but like something in that scenario like that kind of scenario why does closure really [1601.56 --> 1607.40] fit that kind of scenario yeah well i mean it's a jvm right so you're running a lot on the jvm and [1607.40 --> 1616.02] then again current currency that um you're you're doing things um effectively and um then it's less code [1616.02 --> 1625.28] right i mean uh with closure it's really concise uh so you have less code to maintain um and you can [1625.28 --> 1632.02] compose things and break them up very nicely so it's just a nice place to be i think how about [1632.02 --> 1637.54] readability um aside from the parentheses let's just assume we can get over the parentheses which [1637.54 --> 1646.72] i i think i probably can get over that um but at the same time maybe just because it's foreign but [1646.72 --> 1652.64] uh you know you have the order of the arguments is flipped i believe yeah um isn't it pretty strange [1652.64 --> 1659.00] to read at least at first well maybe at first but i think once you get used to it then it's like really [1659.00 --> 1667.18] a really simple syntax right i mean what comes first it's always uh you know the function [1667.18 --> 1672.64] or the operator and then all the other stuff is afterwards so it's it's very beautiful and it's [1672.64 --> 1676.94] um like this is the thing that comes first all the time i don't really need to think about it [1676.94 --> 1682.48] so yeah i think that actually improves its readability it reminds me of adam when we were [1682.48 --> 1686.30] at space city js last spring i don't know if you remember this but there was a talk about [1686.30 --> 1692.16] how they built tetris enclosure script do you remember that talk i do yeah yeah pretty interesting [1692.16 --> 1698.02] and we were sitting way in the back um so we couldn't see the slides very well but it was cool [1698.02 --> 1701.80] because he showed how like after they had kind of built this foundation of these functions and closure [1701.80 --> 1707.58] script a lot of the features that they needed kind of fell out of the fact that the language is [1707.58 --> 1711.58] designed in such a way that adding additional features later on was very easy and they almost got [1711.58 --> 1716.46] certain things for free um and he was showing different code blocks and he showed the changes [1716.46 --> 1722.68] from one slide to the next to add the next feature and you know the the feature would be like when the [1722.68 --> 1729.28] row gets complete like wipe out the for the blocks of that row and i was so far back that i could only [1729.28 --> 1734.48] really see the shape of it i couldn't i couldn't read any of the code but it had this very i don't know [1734.48 --> 1738.18] it was like an attractive shape you know sometimes you can just look at a program from far away [1738.18 --> 1743.80] kind of do the squint test yeah and you can tell if it's like poorly factored or not exactly and this [1743.80 --> 1749.10] even though i couldn't i couldn't understand it from from latin or from hebrew it looked really [1749.10 --> 1755.30] nice and uh i wonder if that's appealing to you or if it was just because i was so far away no i'm [1755.30 --> 1760.44] sure that's a part of it i mean it's just um you know you get the joy factor of working in language [1760.44 --> 1767.14] too that you find pleasing right and um oh we haven't talked about the REPL yet like the REPL is like a huge [1767.14 --> 1773.74] part of it uh so the the REPL stands for read about print loop but it really it allows [1773.74 --> 1780.30] you to just interactively i like to think about it as like sculpting your code like you can just get [1780.30 --> 1785.90] in there and get your data structures and just manipulate it in and get like super fast feedback [1785.90 --> 1793.76] um and you can even poke it running code and explore it that way too um so the REPL is an incredibly [1793.76 --> 1799.42] powerful feature that just kind of really aids your development i think it speeds it up [1799.42 --> 1804.10] uh so yeah that's a really important part of it too [1804.10 --> 1811.02] very cool uh one thing i was going to ask is when you you mentioned kind of sculpting your data in [1811.02 --> 1816.30] the REPL one thing about functional programming and some of this could be my lack of understanding so [1816.30 --> 1820.64] feel free to like educate as well here um i will not be embarrassed if you educate me here [1820.64 --> 1829.16] um it's like you're just kind of passing around this bag of data um through these functions and i'm i'm down with [1829.16 --> 1836.88] transformation and like chaining and all that but it seems like it seems like you you could benefit from [1836.88 --> 1841.68] structure around that data you know some from some object orientation do you miss that ever inside of [1841.68 --> 1847.06] closure or is it just kind of like once you get used to it you're just used to passing bags of data and [1847.06 --> 1851.24] is even that even correct that you do that kind of just pass what i consider a hash or like a key [1851.24 --> 1856.08] value yeah yeah i mean it's all it's all based on those data structures and like a map uh data [1856.08 --> 1862.32] structure and like a vector data structure those are core uh you do organize your functions um and you [1862.32 --> 1868.92] organize them usually by namespaces okay uh so you can almost think about the way that you'd maybe [1868.92 --> 1876.84] organize um objects you'd use kind of namespaces for too you keep groups of related uh functions [1876.84 --> 1883.38] in a separate file or namespace and um then include them in whatever you're working on [1883.38 --> 1887.50] so yeah you can definitely organize your code um so it's not just [1887.50 --> 1896.10] um you know just plain functions everywhere okay you mentioned the community you said it kind of has a [1896.10 --> 1902.18] great community can you uh dive into that at all and give us some more detail yeah it has a very vibrant [1902.18 --> 1908.82] um community in fact there's a slack channel now that just started up it used to just be irc [1908.82 --> 1915.90] but somebody opened up a slack channel i think it's called closureians.slack.com but i think it's got [1915.90 --> 1923.12] almost pretty much 2 000 people from like around the world or just like all this yeah yeah and it's [1923.12 --> 1927.08] fabulous you know there's all sorts of different channels for different people's interests you know [1927.08 --> 1934.24] if they're in um you know england or russia or wherever sometimes by geography sometimes by [1934.24 --> 1940.14] interest if they're into a closure script or totomic um but you know it just brings everybody together [1940.14 --> 1949.24] and um talking and sharing hints um there's all sorts of interesting libraries that are being [1949.24 --> 1956.88] created every day um let me see there was a there's one that just came out the other day that was [1956.88 --> 1962.94] really cool um somebody put out a couple screencasts uh called parens of the dead [1962.94 --> 1970.56] wow so it was creating a closure script game he'd only done a couple um screencasts yet but i watched [1970.56 --> 1977.96] them and they're fabulous so he kind of codes it all as you're watching uh through emacs and uh the [1977.96 --> 1985.12] repl and closure script and everything so i think it was the first video is probably about 15 minutes [1985.12 --> 1988.78] and the second one was 12 and he pretty much had like this working closure script game [1988.78 --> 1995.18] it was awesome we gotta find that one adam and link that thing up yeah friends of the dead what do you [1995.18 --> 2000.80] know about the meetup communities and and conferences out there for closure oh well there's a lot of good [2000.80 --> 2010.02] ones um so closure conge is coming up in november so that was actually the first uh closure conference [2010.02 --> 2013.98] and after that there have been all sorts of other ones that have sprung up there's closure west [2013.98 --> 2021.92] for the west coast and now there's your closure for um people in europe and um i think there's some [2021.92 --> 2027.90] other ones i'm forgetting their names but um some more and more are are coming up with popularity [2027.90 --> 2035.24] and um so that's great there's local community groups everywhere i help run one in our local [2035.24 --> 2041.60] city um cincinnati ohio i help run the cincinnati functional programmers group and that's a great [2041.60 --> 2048.52] group of people too oh and there's one coming up too um strange loop uh that's not just closure [2048.52 --> 2054.56] but it's a lot of different languages um but closure has a strong contingent there as well but it's a [2054.56 --> 2061.02] fabulous conference i guess while we're on the note of strange loop muzzle mention your awesome [2061.02 --> 2067.80] talk chemical computing yeah yeah so that's the one i am going to be talking about when coming to [2067.80 --> 2075.96] strange loop so uh yeah chemical computing kind of a strange thing so i'm actually really excited that [2075.96 --> 2084.26] the talk had accepted because it's it's um the idea of it came from papers that i found in a book [2084.26 --> 2093.20] that was entitled unconventional programming paradigms so right off that really appealed to me [2093.20 --> 2097.30] uh just i like that would that would just scare me so you can tell we're different people [2097.30 --> 2103.08] i'd be like oh scary put it away yeah so i really like to be able to step back [2103.08 --> 2109.38] and kind of approach problems that we take every day and just think about it in a completely [2109.38 --> 2117.90] different way um i find that really interesting so what chemical programming is is it's not actually [2117.90 --> 2124.74] programming with real chemicals which i mean that would be super cool too but that's not what it's [2124.74 --> 2131.88] about it's about abstract um so you're using the kind of the metaphor of a chemical reaction [2131.88 --> 2142.32] to do your programming with so uh it would be you kind of think so if you can take the example of [2142.32 --> 2152.16] um like calculating a max like you know a max of some numbers right right you can think of um we'll say [2152.16 --> 2157.32] two numbers like five and three you can think of as molecules [2157.32 --> 2168.38] and when these molecules react they react according to a certain rule and the to find the max the rule [2168.38 --> 2175.96] is um if you have a five and a three um two molecules you're going to return two new molecules [2175.96 --> 2183.18] that are the same number as the biggest molecule that you had in so a five and a three would react and [2183.18 --> 2193.00] return a five and a five uh and basically you just do this with a big you can just imagine like a big [2193.00 --> 2201.96] list of molecule numbers from one to a hundred okay and then you mix them all up [2201.96 --> 2206.86] and you divide them into pairs [2206.86 --> 2215.16] and then each of those pairs reacts with one another so it becomes two more numbers [2215.16 --> 2221.34] wow and then you mix them up again until you just have one number and then you do the same thing [2221.34 --> 2229.92] right and then as they react with one another um you will eventually and this is the tricky part [2229.92 --> 2238.42] because you don't really know when yeah you will eventually get them all to be the same number [2238.42 --> 2244.86] which is the maximum so you can take a quote measurement which would be take a look at all these number [2244.86 --> 2253.52] molecules and say do a distinct on it and you should have you know the number 99 or you know 100 [2253.52 --> 2260.76] wherever you ended up um calculating the max from and you'll have your result but yeah so that's a [2260.76 --> 2268.42] tricky bit trying to figure out where to end but the kind of awesome thing about um that i found kind [2268.42 --> 2277.10] of experimenting with it and doing things that way is that this model really allows you to just turn [2277.10 --> 2285.30] concurrency up to the max because there's no sequences and there's no no sequentially sequentiality [2285.30 --> 2291.26] can't talk there's no prerequisites for these yeah anything yeah and if you think about it like we [2291.26 --> 2299.32] as programmers like we iterate over loops and do so much stuff in sequences like all the time [2299.32 --> 2305.16] if you would just think about how you normally calculate a max that you just realize wow there's [2305.16 --> 2311.96] other ways to do it i don't really even need to have do stuff in order like that so it's it's kind [2311.96 --> 2316.22] of an interesting way to think about it and that's kind of what nature does right nature doesn't line [2316.22 --> 2323.96] everything up and put it in a loop and process it all well maybe if you think about time you have a 24 [2323.96 --> 2329.08] hour loop and just kind of keep going every day it's a brand new day no i like that it seems like a [2329.08 --> 2334.20] whole different way of of thinking about things and is the purpose of these types of [2334.20 --> 2341.84] exercises is to just basically kind of get us out of our rut of thinking about solving problems in [2341.84 --> 2348.30] the same way is that what you're trying to do with this talk yeah and and also um just spreading the [2348.30 --> 2359.16] knowledge around of um another way of thinking uh i think when you have cross fertilization [2359.16 --> 2368.46] of two different fields uh like computer science and um you know biology or nature inspired solutions [2368.46 --> 2376.80] that's an area where you have a lot of new ideas and research and innovation and all the papers that [2376.80 --> 2383.74] i got all this information from right now all the ideas are just in research right now so there's [2383.74 --> 2391.56] nothing in the wild that has um been used but there could be right so this is kind of putting [2391.56 --> 2396.72] the knowledge out there and the seeds in people's minds and what might inspire them like to think [2396.72 --> 2401.88] about this in a different way you know maybe that'll help them solve some sort of concurrency [2401.88 --> 2408.96] problem that they're having um you know who knows what it might what it might spark so that's the [2408.96 --> 2416.48] exciting part to me sounds like there's a little bit of a of a pattern here because not only do you [2416.48 --> 2421.62] have this upcoming chemical computing uh talk which by the way you have a nice rundown on your website [2421.62 --> 2425.04] we'll link that one up in the show notes to those who can't make it to strange loop this year [2425.04 --> 2431.88] um but you also have a programming language of your own uh you also say that you're into ai and you're [2431.88 --> 2437.20] into robots you have this thing called uh babar i don't know if that's how you say it but [2437.20 --> 2441.14] that's how i always said it in my head i don't know how to say it either babar i don't know it's [2441.14 --> 2446.70] the elephant from the cartoons right i don't know well see there was a there was a car or a [2446.70 --> 2452.82] a cartoon called right babar yeah yeah was that what it was called and i would have so i was gonna [2452.82 --> 2458.14] say it babar but is it babar okay yeah i could be wrong i remember the elephant cartoon yeah i don't [2458.14 --> 2462.76] remember how they pronounce it and that's what it's named after yeah i don't i'm unsure about the [2462.76 --> 2466.58] pronunciation your language so you can pick how you pronounce it yeah all right we'll go with babar [2466.58 --> 2472.72] okay i'm almost certain it is babar i'm almost certain okay i was a fan of the show so i i like [2472.72 --> 2480.40] that show too tell us about uh your language yeah so um i i kind of have this habit uh that i like to [2480.40 --> 2489.10] try to dig into papers and um kind of understand them and one of the papers that i was looking at [2489.10 --> 2498.14] was by john mccarthy and it was entitled elephant 2000 and this was had a lot of his [2498.14 --> 2507.70] they weren't entirely flushed out but his ideas of what um a programming language of the future should [2507.70 --> 2516.14] be and i think it was entitled for the year 2000 right okay um so he had some very interesting ideas [2516.14 --> 2524.52] here and one that really aspect that really appealed to me was uh the idea and we talk about cross [2524.52 --> 2535.86] federalization that um from philosophy of humans all speak in a language right and if you look at the [2535.86 --> 2544.32] things that we do with our language you can abstract that to kind of higher a higher level like what [2544.32 --> 2552.52] what what do we try to communicate with each other with our speech for example if you say pass the salt [2552.52 --> 2562.72] in english and then you say pass the salt in japanese you know you're you're meaning the same thing even [2562.72 --> 2569.22] though you're speaking different languages you're meaning you are want to um you want to request [2569.22 --> 2578.44] someone to do an action for you so that kind of boils it down um to a different a different level [2578.44 --> 2586.54] and he thought that and philosophers he got this from philosophers that this would be [2586.54 --> 2593.74] the same sort of principles would hold true if you wanted to communicate with somebody from mars [2593.74 --> 2601.84] right you would still need to have requests you would still need to have um assertions asserting [2601.84 --> 2609.44] something like a fact you would still have to have something like queries you know asking a question [2609.44 --> 2617.46] um and those are and not only that is the way that we would communicate with machines [2617.46 --> 2624.48] right machines would have to and computers would have to communicate with us on this level and we can [2624.48 --> 2631.70] see the ones that i mentioned are pretty easy right we we tell computers facts um you know basically x is [2631.70 --> 2643.12] seven and um we do queries you know what what is the value of x uh we do requests quite a bit a lot of times [2643.12 --> 2653.20] but some things that he mentioned in the speech acts were aspects that our computers don't regularly have [2653.20 --> 2664.42] and these are um you could have beliefs and you could have um you could try to convince someone [2664.42 --> 2671.74] of something that might change your belief uh so it might affect your future actions [2671.74 --> 2679.88] uh so that was kind of an interesting one to explore with um what a computer might make of that [2679.88 --> 2691.66] another is um when you when somebody asks you to pass the salt and you agree you have made a kind of [2691.66 --> 2700.14] obligation to fulfill that request by kind of accepting it so there's all sorts of these interesting kind of [2700.14 --> 2709.58] philosophical um higher level how do we interact with each other and how would that drive interacting [2709.58 --> 2713.94] with computer so that was kind of a roundabout [2713.94 --> 2720.78] exploration so i created this language to kind of explore some of this so i made um [2720.78 --> 2727.18] uh the language through closure i used instaparse which is a great parsing language [2727.18 --> 2735.70] uh made my own language to uh give be able to have beliefs and speech acts um in my repl or in my [2735.70 --> 2741.74] computer program and then i used this to control um like my ar drone [2741.74 --> 2750.24] wow yes so now it got interesting yeah yeah so you know the whole you could maybe give it goals and [2750.24 --> 2754.70] beliefs and communicate it with speech acts this is kind of interesting so that was kind of fun i had one [2754.70 --> 2763.36] point where um you you know it would it would um fly up until it believed that it was high enough [2763.36 --> 2771.44] and that was you know at three meters or however it was and it was kind of fun debugging that so instead [2771.44 --> 2775.28] of saying stop when you're three meters high say you believe that three meters is high enough [2775.28 --> 2780.98] yeah yeah i i yeah i have i have the belief so when when it flew off and i got stuck on the ceiling [2780.98 --> 2788.16] i'm like oh you have a faulty belief right yeah i believe there's a ceiling there yeah so it's kind [2788.16 --> 2793.08] of a different way of thinking about and and debugging programs a different way of interacting with them [2793.08 --> 2798.30] very cool the syntax is pretty interesting too when you read through some of your examples on the on [2798.30 --> 2804.30] the readme just the way that you restructure uh jared almost counter to what you said earlier about [2804.30 --> 2810.62] closure like it's is it kind of hard to read but in this case the way that you're asking the program [2810.62 --> 2817.68] it's it's sort of like similar to english you know it's very english like yeah there was on purpose [2817.68 --> 2822.62] so i used to close your program to create a new language that had no friends [2822.62 --> 2830.88] it also is kind of funny because you know when you start to use things like convincing and [2830.88 --> 2836.02] requesting you're you're kind of humanizing the machine at this point right because you are [2836.02 --> 2841.88] trying to convince it to to power off you know exactly so i start to have sky net thoughts so how [2841.88 --> 2847.08] yeah how long have you been doing this like how old is this project don't kill us oh this one's a [2847.08 --> 2853.94] a few years old i think i did it in like 2013 so is it stable is it where it's at are you playing [2853.94 --> 2859.58] with it anymore it was it was mainly just kind of an exploratory thing for me um so i haven't been [2859.58 --> 2866.34] adding to it but um you know it's out there and i've had i've had all sorts of interesting people [2866.34 --> 2874.12] comment on it and in fact i found that uh there was another real programming language not just my [2874.12 --> 2880.30] toy programming language that actually had speech acts in it um this is called the star programming [2880.30 --> 2885.16] language uh so this is a language i think it's used privately right now although i think that he [2885.16 --> 2892.98] just open sourced it um starlang but a full featured language that has a notion of speech acts in it [2892.98 --> 2895.78] i mean they're not the requests and that's not the beliefs and the [2895.78 --> 2904.64] but there's some other some other um acts but very awesome that's all things that i've never even [2904.64 --> 2911.28] heard of so very cool things to to be exposed to uh even the term speech acts when i first hit your [2911.28 --> 2916.70] home page of the bar or bad bar i was like what the heck's a speech act you know that is exactly right [2916.70 --> 2921.98] this is why i love like looking at these papers yeah as i read elf in 2000 i had the same thing it [2921.98 --> 2926.52] came to speech acts and i was like what the heck what is that so it's kind of like just a thread [2926.52 --> 2932.90] that you can pull on and then you can say oh speech acts is from this philosophy john searles and [2932.90 --> 2939.12] and just follow the thread and through trying to just understand just like a couple paragraphs [2939.12 --> 2945.26] in this paper it takes you off in different wonderful directions um that you never knew existed [2945.26 --> 2948.80] yeah when you talk when you start talking about reading these papers it reminded me i think [2948.80 --> 2955.46] um it's the the independent there's independent mac developer i think it's super mega ultra groovy [2955.46 --> 2962.56] um which is smug is this company name which i thought was hilarious but he does like audio [2962.56 --> 2970.62] synthesizing type of software and i i saw a talk of his years ago where uh he says that he he reads [2970.62 --> 2977.70] research papers as a competitive edge in like the indie dev scene to like give himself a level above [2977.70 --> 2983.12] everybody else and so he'll like go read an academic paper about signal processing or about some sort of [2983.12 --> 2988.76] audio intricacies and he'll work that into his software into his product because nobody else is doing [2988.76 --> 2994.28] that you know and he's bringing these ideas from academia which you know oftentimes they just kind [2994.28 --> 2999.30] of stop there and they just sit on a shelf so to speak and bringing them into you know kind of a [2999.30 --> 3003.64] capitalist economy i thought was very interesting but yeah your take on it's just as interesting where [3003.64 --> 3008.96] it's like we can actually you know reach into these other areas and bring thoughts out that [3008.96 --> 3015.10] otherwise we never would have been exposed to and they can actually make us better developers [3015.10 --> 3018.90] uh they can affect the community in like kind of foundational ways so it's pretty cool [3018.90 --> 3024.24] sure yeah and this is actually i think one of the strong suits of uh that i see in the closure [3024.24 --> 3033.14] community too that there is a real um friendly give and take with the academic community and the industry [3033.14 --> 3040.44] uh that you'll see at the closure conferences there'll be uh speakers from the academic world [3040.44 --> 3045.74] and so they we learn from them and then they turn around and then they learn from us too and that [3045.74 --> 3052.82] cross-fertilization is just valuable everywhere well let's uh let's break there we do have some [3052.82 --> 3057.46] closing thoughts so let's break we'll hear from a sponsor and we'll be right back [3057.46 --> 3064.64] i have yet to meet a single person who doesn't love digital ocean if you've tried digital ocean [3064.64 --> 3070.82] you know how awesome it is and here at the changelog everything we have runs on blazing fast [3070.82 --> 3077.02] ssd cloud servers from digital ocean and i want you to use the code changelog when you sign up today [3077.02 --> 3083.96] to get a free month run a server with one gig of ram and 30 gigs of ssd drive space totally for free [3083.96 --> 3091.12] on digital ocean use the code changelog again that code is changelog use that when you sign up for a new [3091.12 --> 3095.66] account head to digitalocean.com to sign up and tell them the changelog sent you [3095.66 --> 3103.24] all right we're back we got karen here we're talking now about her book i didn't say that before [3103.24 --> 3110.56] the break my bad but uh we've been waiting to talk about this book because this this whole call has sort [3110.56 --> 3118.02] of been uh an introductory guide maybe even a preface to your book potentially but your book is a guide for [3118.02 --> 3125.54] those wanting to get in closure it's a as described by your um by your about here on uh on amazon the [3125.54 --> 3131.72] guide this is the guide that's perfect it's perfectly thorough but gentle uh in terms of an introduction [3131.72 --> 3139.86] for closure so what is this book why did you write it uh where did it come from right so um i think one [3139.86 --> 3148.74] of the unique things about this book is that it's a combo it is two parts and it's part uh an introduction [3148.74 --> 3156.98] in the first half and then in the second half it's a training plan and i structured it that way um [3156.98 --> 3159.68] from trying to run [3159.68 --> 3166.48] so i had been one of these people like everyone you know would run and i was like oh i wish i could run [3166.48 --> 3170.60] oh you mean actually running with your feet yeah like jogging with your feet like jogging and i was [3170.60 --> 3176.78] like and i would try it and i'd be like i just can't i can't do it you know i would try running for 15 [3176.78 --> 3182.98] minutes and i would just feel like i was gonna die so i was just like this is just too hard for me i just [3182.98 --> 3191.88] i can't do it and then i um ran into one of these kind of like teach yourself to run programs that was [3191.88 --> 3199.62] like he's into 5k that had this thing like you just run for maybe a minute and then you walk for [3199.62 --> 3205.76] five minutes and then you run for another minute and then you gradually build up over the course of [3205.76 --> 3213.28] you know seven eight weeks till you can finally actually run and this was like i mean i guess i [3213.28 --> 3218.02] should have figured this out earlier but it just was mind opening for me that i just didn't have to do it [3218.02 --> 3223.90] all at once and the reason why i was having such trouble was i was trying to do too much at once [3223.90 --> 3233.00] and i thought you know this can apply to so many other areas and in fact i had i was at a user group [3233.00 --> 3239.84] and i was talking to a um a fellow that wanted to learn closure he said yeah i picked up a closure [3239.84 --> 3245.44] book and i read it over the weekend and i tried it all and i just i just don't get it it's just too hard [3245.44 --> 3253.18] and i was like that's the same thing like when i was running yeah that it if you're changing i mean [3253.18 --> 3260.38] the way that you think object oriented is kind of just a drastic difference from functional it's [3260.38 --> 3266.02] a different way of approaching problems and that it's it's just kind of like learning to think and do [3266.02 --> 3271.14] something in a new way that you just really can't do it all at once i mean maybe some people can [3271.14 --> 3278.38] but i certainly couldn't and it took me a long while to kind of mold my brain to think in a [3278.38 --> 3285.12] different way and approach problems that way so this book was um all about kind of approaching it [3285.12 --> 3293.12] um and giving people the the the path that says yeah it's okay let's ease into it let's start simple [3293.12 --> 3298.28] this is not going to happen you're not going to pick up this book and all of a sudden be [3298.28 --> 3305.28] totally knowing how to code closure in like two days right it's going to take seven weeks [3305.28 --> 3311.96] and i at least for me and i hope other people out there that just that knowledge of okay it's just [3311.96 --> 3317.30] not going to happen right away and that's okay it's just a very valuable thing so it provides a [3317.30 --> 3324.10] structured training plan um between week one and week seven it starts off using some open source [3324.10 --> 3333.26] um website called foreclosure where you can solve problems with the community in a um kind of a [3333.26 --> 3340.66] almost a test driven way which is nice and then it moves into doing some katas i've made a github [3340.66 --> 3348.24] repo and it's totally open sourcing you there it's called um wonderland katas um so you're doing [3348.24 --> 3354.68] katas for closure and developing your skills and little bigger chunks and then the final week is [3354.68 --> 3361.74] actually developing your own web app so and by the time you're done with that you've had your brain a [3361.74 --> 3369.26] chance to kind of think a different way and it it's it it becomes a lot easier and you can run a 5k [3369.26 --> 3375.76] and you can run a 5k i think this is a great example to to pause on the tech side of things [3375.76 --> 3380.70] from this conversation and just say that this is to me it seems like a really great example of [3380.70 --> 3388.24] living your real life not just in front of a computer and having profound uh new thoughts that [3388.24 --> 3395.80] totally impact what you do in your day job in programming uh i think it's amazing how learning to [3395.80 --> 3400.60] run and influence you to write this book and then ultimately hopefully potentially influence so [3400.60 --> 3409.34] many people out there to uh take their time learning closure through your book yes that's really cool [3409.34 --> 3416.28] i mean it's it's amazing to see that yeah i think it's a great conceit for an intro book i loved when i [3416.28 --> 3421.54] just saw that it was an intro slash training plan for closure and i almost feel like i need a training [3421.54 --> 3426.06] plan more than an introduction because you know i've talked to people about it and i've seen the [3426.06 --> 3430.62] syntax and you know i've i've got a little bit of an intro already but a training plan that's something [3430.62 --> 3436.24] that i feel like i can really execute on you know uh sometimes you have a book that just intros you to [3436.24 --> 3444.00] language it's like well now what do i do yeah i just like yeah write a blog yeah make a web app um but [3444.00 --> 3450.64] one that actually takes baby steps with it with you through it is is a great idea yeah yeah i mean it [3450.64 --> 3456.10] totally depends on your learning style but hopefully this will key into um the people that that appreciate [3456.10 --> 3463.00] that as their learning style i have a question about uh the wonderland closure katas and the [3463.00 --> 3468.94] question i guess is why you chose katas over cohen's since cohen's are so popular and they're very similar [3468.94 --> 3477.94] to katas right so yeah so what i guess a lot of people are what's the what's the difference so i'll give [3477.94 --> 3483.52] you my definition of it maybe it's it's not your definition of the difference of them i would think [3483.52 --> 3491.34] of katas being a little bit bigger um chunk problems than cohen's um so that's just my [3491.34 --> 3496.76] interpretation of it um but is that is that yours or do you have a different interpretation of it [3496.76 --> 3502.72] i my interpretation was just more or less learning something through iterative practicing not so much [3502.72 --> 3507.84] the the variant that you went to i think isn't cohen's the purpose is like it's test driven that's [3507.84 --> 3512.98] like the whole thing with cohen's but with katas it's you do the same thing over and over and over [3512.98 --> 3519.44] again is that right or am i off do i not understand that that that could be it's like i've heard i've [3519.44 --> 3523.68] heard various definitions but i'll tell you i'll tell you what it is and then you can tell me [3523.68 --> 3532.48] what camp it falls into okay so um the wonderland um code examples they're they're independent little um [3532.48 --> 3539.88] closure projects and they do have tests so they come with tests uh failing tests and you need to [3539.88 --> 3546.70] provide the code to make those tests pass um and then once you have a solution you're welcome to [3546.70 --> 3554.22] share that as a link in the readme too so people can learn from each other as well um so i don't know [3554.22 --> 3560.58] exactly what camp that falls into that's what it is well you can probably ask five people and get six [3560.58 --> 3566.18] opinions that's true i was gonna say that because i was just curious because they you know by definition [3566.18 --> 3571.88] they seem pretty similar and and i was just thinking like with so many coens out there you know sometimes [3571.88 --> 3578.00] you might ride the coat till the popularity of other coens to popularize yours for example oh okay yeah [3578.00 --> 3583.50] no i i got inspired just because the book um follows a lot of examples of alice in wonderland [3583.50 --> 3594.06] so the the repo um the exercises the wonderland exercises um take their inspiration from lewis carroll [3594.06 --> 3602.86] and he actually was a really big puzzlest so he he he really enjoyed doing puzzles there's um [3602.86 --> 3613.06] there's an alphabet cipher that he had published um there was um i don't think he originated this but [3613.06 --> 3618.98] he would is documented that he used it with children a lot it's the it's a river crossing puzzle i don't [3618.98 --> 3626.86] know if you've ever heard that where you've got like a a fox and a goose and a bag of corn and then [3626.86 --> 3633.58] you've got to get them across the river and you can only carry you know whatever across at one time [3633.58 --> 3641.80] and they gotta not eat each other so um that sort of thing i i do love your appreciation i'm not sure if [3641.80 --> 3647.66] it's uh that way or not but for just the some of the the art that comes with this so when you're [3647.66 --> 3651.66] reading me you've got alice kind of peeking i'm not sure what she's peeking into i think she's [3651.66 --> 3657.60] finding a door that's super small and she's gonna go into it but you know with each of these um i'm [3657.60 --> 3662.36] not sure do you call them are they called katas then each individual one is a kata yeah that's what [3662.36 --> 3669.14] i call them but like you said the terminology is up for grabs i guess so in that case you got but [3669.14 --> 3674.94] you have this art and this playfulness and i love so since i asked you about cohen's i i do appreciate [3674.94 --> 3681.68] your appreciation for alice in wonderland and how you've played each of these katas off of uh probably [3681.68 --> 3688.66] some of your appreciation for that book yeah yeah that's um thanks i i yeah it's just alice in wonderland's [3688.66 --> 3695.36] a fabulous a book um that speaks to people on so many levels so it's one of those books that uh [3695.36 --> 3701.90] are stories that you can read you know several times and still never get all the nuances that are in [3701.90 --> 3707.86] involved you know from everything from the plot to the characters to the yeah you know the ways they [3707.86 --> 3712.18] speak things like that you just there's always this constant onion effect that you can keep going [3712.18 --> 3718.92] layer by layer deeper deeper uh no pun intended back to alice of course yeah it's it's timeless [3718.92 --> 3726.40] well speaking of inspiration i guess we should go into our closing questions now and our closing [3726.40 --> 3732.22] question that we ask pretty much every guest is one about inspiration so if you had to pick somebody [3732.22 --> 3736.84] out there who would be your hero when it comes to programming somebody who inspires you a mentor [3736.84 --> 3744.14] or a role model uh who would you name as your programming hero i would name um jim wyrick he [3744.14 --> 3750.10] actually passed away last year but i had the privilege of working um with him and getting to know him [3750.10 --> 3758.40] personally and not only was he a brilliant man but he was one of the kindest and most inspiring men [3758.40 --> 3765.72] um that i ever got a chance to know so um for i'm sure you've heard of him like he's he was the creator [3765.72 --> 3772.16] of the rake library yeah yeah so uh just a beautiful man um he was kind to everybody uh [3772.16 --> 3777.80] you know it didn't matter whether you were a programmer or not a lot of times during lunch breaks [3777.80 --> 3783.70] and we'd find our drones together you know the the janer would be coming down the hall and he'd say oh [3783.70 --> 3787.34] come over here i'm going to show you something and like show him how to fly the drone and show him [3787.34 --> 3794.14] the code behind it all and everything and he was just a a naturally just beautiful person and a [3794.14 --> 3802.28] wonderful teacher uh so yeah very inspiring yeah amen to that one i think uh we hear jim as a hero [3802.28 --> 3808.78] often and well deserved he uh i think we had justin searles on um man it's been a while now but i [3808.78 --> 3815.86] definitely remember him having similar kind affectionate words for jim and uh we had adam and i are both [3815.86 --> 3822.26] you know have ruby in our roots so we were affected and still use rake to this day yeah by jim not [3822.26 --> 3828.62] only his software lives on but you know just the kind of man he was uh still affects and still like [3828.62 --> 3833.66] close in the hearts of many people to this day so absolutely definitely adam you want to take the [3833.66 --> 3838.40] next one well the the next one is always a fun one because it allows you to be a little introspective [3838.40 --> 3845.60] and and more shout outs to popular open source that may or may not be popular yet um but in terms [3845.60 --> 3850.46] of your radar what is out there either in just in programming or open source what's out there that's [3850.46 --> 3854.28] interesting to you that if you had a free weekend i'm not sure how often that happens for you [3854.28 --> 3860.38] but if you had a free weekend what would it be that you hack on well there's like new stuff all the [3860.38 --> 3865.78] time right at least for me there's like shiny stuff i'm like oh i'm gonna look at that i don't want to [3865.78 --> 3872.36] look at that all right but um right now i'm just um i'm really just entranced with the chemical [3872.36 --> 3877.58] programming and the chemical computing and just kind of looking into that a little bit more [3877.58 --> 3884.42] and there's some more papers about that and maybe practical applications um or practical [3884.42 --> 3890.06] potential applications because there's not in the wild in distributed computing um self-organizing [3890.06 --> 3898.36] systems and self-healing systems uh so i i would probably like to explore um a little bit more in that [3898.36 --> 3907.34] area as far as other kind of cool um libraries and languages um one that i've contributed to [3907.34 --> 3918.98] um quite a bit in uh the past months is pixie lang um and that's a new language by um timothy baldridge [3918.98 --> 3929.36] and he's a really smart guy but it's um it's a lisp again but it's it's uh made in r python [3929.36 --> 3939.16] um using the py py tool chain so um it compiles down natively it's super fast and um can access [3939.16 --> 3944.80] native libraries so it's kind of exciting and different it's closure inspired um but it doesn't [3944.80 --> 3952.92] necessarily um stick to um be compatible with closure says it has magical powers do you know what [3952.92 --> 3960.06] those magical powers are i think that it's it's supposed to be fast and light um but it it's you [3960.06 --> 3964.76] know it's a great language if you especially if you if you want to use fairy gifts [3964.76 --> 3973.38] i think the package manager is is named dust which is pretty cool right so you can have pixie dust [3973.38 --> 3977.98] yes love it yeah always a play on words love that [3977.98 --> 3985.72] but that's a fun it's a fun um project and um they're very open in uh contributions [3985.72 --> 3992.02] and friendly there's a nice chat room so if you're looking to get involved in kind of a cool language [3992.02 --> 3997.58] with nice people that's a nice side project very cool we'll link that up in the show notes so for [3997.58 --> 4002.52] those listening uh if you if you've listened to the show before you know that we take pretty thorough [4002.52 --> 4009.70] show notes um so we do a pretty good job on that this is episode 171 so you can find everything [4009.70 --> 4017.50] that we've talked about today show notes included at changelog.com 171 um any closing thoughts karen [4017.50 --> 4026.26] before we take it home no i think i've said it all but it's been fun well i do want to mention that [4026.26 --> 4031.76] your book living closure is available for order now so it's not like it's a pre-order she's written it [4031.76 --> 4036.16] it's out there now so if you wanted to go check it out there'll be a show note for that i'll link in [4036.16 --> 4041.74] the show notes for that but uh check out the book uh have fun learning closure if you pick up the book [4041.74 --> 4046.52] um as you know we release the show every friday so come back here next friday if you're not [4046.52 --> 4050.76] subscribing yet go into itunes and subscribe and while you're in the nozzle go ahead and rate the [4050.76 --> 4055.60] show if you've listened to it before we also ship a weekly email on saturdays called change all [4055.60 --> 4062.06] weekly you can find that at changelog.com slash weekly and because we love those kinds of words [4062.06 --> 4068.10] we also have a nightly which is essentially uh github trending on crack it's got lots more stuff [4068.10 --> 4075.04] in there maybe cracks a bad word to use on steroids on steroids yeah on steroids worse okay it was on [4075.04 --> 4078.94] steroids thank you for the correction jared read it and then you decide if it's on crack or if it's on [4078.94 --> 4083.48] steroids and we have a an open repo for that if you want to give us some feedback it's [4083.48 --> 4089.94] ping on uh on github so find us on there uh but change all nightly is pretty cool change [4089.94 --> 4094.16] all the com slash nightly subscribe to that we had uh some pretty awesome sponsors for this show [4094.16 --> 4100.72] that help us make it possible code chip love those guys imagex a brand new sponsor and a very cool [4100.72 --> 4107.78] platform for serving images uh very unique and then also digital ocean who doesn't love digital ocean so [4107.78 --> 4111.68] those are our sponsors thank you so much for listening and karen thank you so much for [4111.68 --> 4116.50] coming on the show and just schooling us in the world of closure and everything that you're about [4116.50 --> 4121.56] so cool having this conversation with you so thank you for joining us and uh let's all say goodbye [4121.56 --> 4125.14] thanks bye goodbye thank you [4125.14 --> 4128.08] you [4128.08 --> 4130.64] you [4139.28 --> 4143.40] you [4143.40 --> 4144.30] you [4144.30 --> 4149.08] you