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[723.22 --> 728.92] seen some a lot of great talks from people particularly at the end of the day we tend to |
[728.92 --> 734.84] do lightning talks and people can sign up for the lightning talks on the day and you know it's it's |
[734.84 --> 740.64] really it's really fun to see people just pull out like their fun little projects that they've been |
[740.64 --> 746.14] hacking on you know things that they would never really bother submitting like a full-scale conference |
[746.14 --> 754.76] talk um but you know for instance at the at the conference this year we saw a guy presented his um |
[754.76 --> 761.30] he wrote a like a backup system in go and he was fairly serious about it and so it was it was actually |
[761.30 --> 767.72] quite a nice solid product that he produced another guy showed this really bizarre thing called a |
[767.72 --> 776.06] fantoscope i think which is like a an old school way of producing moving images um by sort of uh |
[776.06 --> 780.64] it's probably too difficult for me to explain uh you'll have to google it but you need a visual it |
[780.64 --> 786.04] was it was a visual thing it was kind of wild it was pretty unexpected so do you have the past |
[786.04 --> 791.14] years on video then yeah yeah so the playlist includes the uh the lightning talks and all of the |
[791.14 --> 797.06] lightning talks are uh in the youtube video description we have the time stamps of when each of the talks |
[797.06 --> 802.16] begin so you can skip through them awesome so definitely check them out actually last year there was a |
[802.16 --> 808.38] great one from one of our contributors a guy called remy udumfang who's who's a french guy who's been |
[808.38 --> 816.10] off and on contributing to the compiler and and runtime very smart guy but he just i kind of like me and |
[816.10 --> 821.00] brad pushed him throughout the day to like you should give a talk remy come on and um he was pretty shy |
[821.00 --> 826.36] but he ended up writing this talk like why you should contribute to go um and it was a really nice little |
[826.36 --> 831.34] little talk about why it's nice to work on the go project which resonated with me at least |
[831.34 --> 837.24] you know i got sort of an off question i guess before we actually dig into the state of go |
[837.24 --> 845.50] but we just had a conversation about phoenix and elixir phoenix web framework and elixir built on top of |
[845.50 --> 851.76] the erlang uh vm and one of the one of the pieces of that conversation that stuck out to me was the |
[851.76 --> 859.50] concurrency and it talked about how um erlang had been doing concurrency for years you know they saw this |
[859.50 --> 863.38] problem 20 years ago and i hear a lot and i've heard a lot over the last year and a half since |
[863.38 --> 870.44] the last time i've been on the show about go and concurrency in in that in that direction what is it |
[870.44 --> 876.34] about go in comparison to say like java which you're planning to supplant and languages like erlang or even |
[876.34 --> 883.50] elixir how do you how does go uh compete with or what is the landscape like in comparison to those |
[883.50 --> 888.56] other languages that that are concurrent as well there's a there's a lot in that question so it's |
[888.56 --> 897.00] it's quite a deep topic but i think what erlang gives you and elixir as well is this environment in which |
[897.00 --> 905.08] to build distributed concurrent systems or maybe concurrent systems and you know it's very much baked into |
[905.08 --> 912.46] like every part of working with those languages is you think about concurrency and message passing |
[912.46 --> 916.62] and so on because that's my understanding i don't have a lot of experience with them yeah um but |
[916.62 --> 922.36] that's that's how i took it as well yeah but with go um concurrency is always there you can always |
[922.36 --> 929.06] use it use the concurrency features um when you want to do something that involves concurrency so it's |
[929.06 --> 935.68] that we provide really nice tools for like modeling concurrent processes but it's it's not uncommon to |
[935.68 --> 941.82] write go programs that use no concurrency at all you know you don't have to use those tools or think |
[941.82 --> 946.72] in that mindset if it's not appropriate for what you're doing like if you're just if you're writing |
[946.72 --> 952.14] a tool to open a text file process a whole bunch of lines and compute something and print the output |
[952.14 --> 957.84] you know you concurrency is not really appropriate it's an inherently serial process um so you don't |
[957.84 --> 963.64] need the tools if they're not there uh if they're not necessary but there's that aspect there's also the |
[963.64 --> 969.58] aspect that go is still very much you know an imperative programming language it's not a functional |
[969.58 --> 977.12] programming language um so it's a lot more familiar to most programmers and the model in which you're |
[977.12 --> 982.82] running go programs is also familiar you know you you write a go program that runs as a process |
[982.82 --> 990.94] and then that process may talk to other processes but there's no sort of infrastructure to manage those |
[990.94 --> 996.58] processes or pass messages between them or anything none of that's baked into the language unlike |
[996.58 --> 1001.92] erlang which is gives you that entire framework for doing that and so with go it's it's very much |
[1001.92 --> 1009.44] like you program with concurrency assuming that you're operating inside a single process and so |
[1009.44 --> 1015.30] you know like if you send a message um across the channel and it's received by some other go routine |
[1015.30 --> 1021.56] in the process like you know if you're still executing then that other go routine must still be |
[1021.56 --> 1026.56] executing like if the program hasn't crashed then the program is still running and so it's |
[1026.56 --> 1031.60] actually even though there are parallels you can draw between the way you write code in erlang and |
[1031.60 --> 1036.00] the way you write what the way you might write code and go you can't really compare them they're |
[1036.00 --> 1043.72] actually very very different approaches i see i was you know when i was um on that call i was |
[1043.72 --> 1050.08] thinking angie's gonna be on the show i should talk to him about this because i don't i i don't write |
[1050.08 --> 1055.96] erlang code i don't we're actually just uh tinkering with some elixir stuff as we as we speak but |
[1055.96 --> 1062.56] and i've never written much in go besides maybe some um you know a hello world so i'm actually not |
[1062.56 --> 1068.26] even a great candidate for asking you the deeper questions but it always made me wonder about the |
[1068.26 --> 1074.78] concurrency issues um about that that that topic there whether or not you know why someone would |
[1074.78 --> 1079.08] choose or what kind of applications someone's building that are drastically different that makes |
[1079.08 --> 1085.18] someone choose elixir erlang or go you know what what kind of choices does that programmer go through |
[1085.18 --> 1088.96] when they're actually building the application like what makes them choose the language |
[1088.96 --> 1095.64] and like with for example with ruby you you know a lot of the times you are building you know systems |
[1095.64 --> 1101.22] or for the web and you you're choosing it for the elegance and the readability of the language and the |
[1101.22 --> 1105.90] the developer joy of the language and some of those things that come with it you know so what are the |
[1105.90 --> 1111.04] reasons why someone chooses go over one of these other languages that have competing feature sets |
[1111.04 --> 1117.30] right well i mean i the reasons why like i choose go and i think other people choose go |
[1117.30 --> 1125.54] are a lot to do with that sort of programmer joy thing um you know very much uh the overwriting |
[1125.54 --> 1129.86] sentiment amongst go uses is that go just kind of gets out of your way and lets you write code |
[1129.86 --> 1136.16] um it doesn't really give you the tools to sort of over abstract things and so you tend to just like |
[1136.16 --> 1143.38] write the simple code that does the thing you want to do now as opposed to you know dreaming about how |
[1143.38 --> 1149.64] you might do like how you might want to abstract this so you can make it more useful later which is a |
[1149.64 --> 1156.50] a wonderful uh very interesting trap that programmers fall into all the time and so you know it kind of |
[1156.50 --> 1161.74] resists over engineering a lot but i think the the features that it does provide are very well |
[1161.74 --> 1168.44] considered and just tend to work in predictable ways so you don't really spend time like looking at the |
[1168.44 --> 1175.04] language spec or you know wondering if what you wrote is going to do what you think it does um once you |
[1175.04 --> 1181.38] know the language um which doesn't take very long you you really you just know it and you can just use it |
[1181.38 --> 1186.98] yeah and that was one of the things i pulled out from to call back to episode 100 when you and rob |
[1186.98 --> 1191.60] were on was that uh when they were first writing i remember rob saying that he had remembered the |
[1191.60 --> 1197.20] entire language and is you know he can he wanted to build a language that he can keep in his memory |
[1197.20 --> 1203.22] his his current memory and not have to go back and forth to docs well that's that's it's not just like |
[1203.22 --> 1209.64] at the language level like i was talking about to rob about this recently you know uh recently uh we've |
[1209.64 --> 1214.80] just converted the whole and i guess we're heading into talking about this um we just converted the |
[1214.80 --> 1222.16] the tool chain from c to go so it was originally written in c now it's written in go and you know |
[1222.16 --> 1228.48] some there have been some criticisms um from people in the programming community saying you know are you |
[1228.48 --> 1234.46] the go people they should have just used llbm or they should have you know built this on gcc or |
[1234.46 --> 1241.14] something like that and the counter argument to that is we've just been able to do some really |
[1241.14 --> 1248.04] very interesting work on the compiler and the tool chain and there's more a lot more to come and part |
[1248.04 --> 1255.18] of the reason that that is possible is because it's it's possible for people on the team to keep the |
[1255.18 --> 1261.42] entire tool chain in their head and that is just not possible with some of these larger compiler |
[1261.42 --> 1267.80] projects like they're so huge you know they're massive engineering projects that do a tremendous |
[1267.80 --> 1274.94] amount of work and that is really antithetical to the entire design philosophy of go and all of the go |
[1274.94 --> 1282.82] tools and i think one way to be spectacularly productive is to keep things small enough so that |
[1282.82 --> 1288.50] you can know the entire thing so yeah i think that's that's really just a core tenet of of what we're |
[1288.50 --> 1294.74] about and it's been a source of great success for us so far that's certainly a great transition into |
[1294.74 --> 1300.16] the larger talk we'll have here in just a second so andrew i didn't mention this before the call but |
[1300.16 --> 1304.98] i'm going to take a quick break here and do a spot for one of our our sponsors for this show so |
[1304.98 --> 1309.92] we're back in just a second we'll talk to andrew about the state of go his talk at fosdham and kind |
[1309.92 --> 1315.36] of dive into what we're talking about here transition to get and so much more so we'll be back in just a |
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