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[101.42 --> 111.46] all right everyone we're back we got jonathan turn on the line anders hausberg he uh he's done some |
[111.46 --> 116.08] cool stuff anders we'll let you tell tell a bit in the in here in a second or two but we also have |
[116.08 --> 121.70] jared on the call today talking about typescript jared are you excited i'm excited man second time we |
[121.70 --> 128.16] have microsoft people on the changelog recently so it's blowing my mind it's a new microsoft and we'll find |
[128.16 --> 133.60] more i'm sure jonathan let's start with you um introduce yourself if you don't mind talk about |
[133.60 --> 137.50] uh you know who you are at microsoft what you do and then angels will follow up with you after |
[137.50 --> 143.78] after jonathan sure thing so my name is jonathan turner i'm the program manager at microsoft on the |
[143.78 --> 150.66] typescript team so program manager is kind of like i don't know the glorious cat herder so i i kind of |
[150.66 --> 157.86] i know right uh i run the design meetings i do a lot of connections out to clients and and kind of |
[157.86 --> 163.66] try to gather all the requirements to make sure we're on the right track and just what about you |
[163.66 --> 173.00] uh i'm anders hausberg and i'm a um technical fellow at microsoft um and uh these days i'm working |
[173.00 --> 180.06] on typescript but i've spent many years over a decade working on dotnet and c sharp and before that i was |
[180.06 --> 188.44] at borland for about 13 years and worked on turbo pascal and delphi and lots of other things yeah |
[188.44 --> 193.32] jared in our pre-call you had some pretty unique uh asks for andrews anything in particular on |
[193.32 --> 198.06] delphi as we in the pre-call we kind of determined it's not delphi it depends on which side of the |
[198.06 --> 203.34] the atlantic you live on if it's delphi or delphi so what else i'm just saying i'm apparently a brit |
[203.34 --> 209.96] at heart or something because delphi just sounds right to me always has so uh i've been corrected |
[209.96 --> 215.24] i stand corrected i'm going to try to say delphi um because anders if you say it's delphi i'll go |
[215.24 --> 221.86] with delphi although to the guy who invented the gif i'm not gonna relent on that one i'm not gonna |
[221.86 --> 226.78] call it i'm not gonna call it a gif sorry fella but for you anders i'll definitely go with delphi |
[226.78 --> 234.00] yeah i was wondering um with your history um and on the wikipedia page for typescript uh you're kind |
[234.00 --> 238.24] of named as i don't know the inventor of typescript or at least the person who kind of started inside of |
[238.24 --> 245.48] of microsoft we're curious how that came about um if it was your idea if somebody approached you |
[245.48 --> 250.52] if there was a core team at the beginning maybe just give us a backstory of your role at microsoft |
[250.52 --> 256.50] and how typescript has been involved in it yeah no i mean typescript is obviously a team |
[256.50 --> 262.72] effort and i would say i i lead the team as sort of the architect for the language and i i also work |
[262.72 --> 271.52] in actively on the compiler um the project probably trying to think well we we went public in october |
[271.52 --> 276.88] of 2012 i remember that i was trying to think back the other day when we started it was probably well |
[276.88 --> 285.08] it must have been sometime in 2011 probably late 2011 um and we sort of had this on and off |
[285.08 --> 291.74] conversation about what what are we going to do going forward for javascript um we saw increasingly |
[291.74 --> 297.16] that people were writing larger and larger applications in-house as well as externally |
[297.16 --> 305.20] um in javascript just because you know that's sort of like the you only cross-platform game left in town |
[305.20 --> 312.42] right and um people were finding uh certainly in-house that it's hard to maintain these large apps |
[312.42 --> 318.22] uh as as they get beyond a certain size it just becomes incredibly hard to keep it all in your head |
[318.22 --> 325.86] and when you want to do uh refactorings or or anything of a larger nature you know it's it's |
[325.86 --> 331.22] it's like playing with landmines to refactor a javascript code base because you can never really |
[331.22 --> 337.18] be certain that you have tests to cover everything and if you pick the name for a property like say text |
[337.18 --> 342.26] or whatever then there's a million of things called text and how do you know that you're getting the |
[342.26 --> 348.84] right ones and and and people basically were trying to solve this problem in a variety of different ways |
[348.84 --> 355.02] we saw like at google for example they have gwt or quit as they called it early on which was the idea |
[355.02 --> 360.18] there is you author in java and then you cross-compile it to javascript and that allows you to get the |
[360.18 --> 366.14] grown-up tooling of java and the java ecosystem but it allows you to run it in the browser |
[366.14 --> 372.80] and we actually had a project in-house that was similar in nature called script sharp that office |
[372.80 --> 379.34] uh has used for for a number of their large projects um and we were sort of toying with the |
[379.34 --> 384.58] idea boy should we productize that maybe or but but then the more we thought about it the more we felt |
[384.58 --> 390.74] that hey if if if you really want to do something in a in a community like javascript you you really |
[390.74 --> 396.58] should aim to be best of breed you know you really should aim to solve the the problems on the |
[396.58 --> 403.62] on the community's terms not on your terms so to speak and and so you know we try to put our |
[403.62 --> 408.44] javascript hat on and go well what is it that what is it that a javascript programmer would want here for |
[408.44 --> 414.46] their large apps and it's clearly not to substitute a different language but rather it's to remedy you |
[414.46 --> 420.38] those things that are missing in javascript and at the time you know now before ecma script 6 that |
[420.38 --> 428.58] was things like classes and modules um but also and and interfaces but also you know static typing |
[428.58 --> 436.22] you know the ability to actually describe you know hey this function yeah it takes three parameters uh |
[436.22 --> 440.62] but by the way i could also tell you what the types of those parameters are supposed to be and then |
[440.62 --> 447.46] maybe you could check it for me instead of just blowing up at runtime um and so so that was sort |
[447.46 --> 453.76] of the the genesis of typescript was really is there a way we could we could add all of those things to |
[453.76 --> 460.00] javascript without actually messing with its core value proposition you know which is that it runs |
[460.00 --> 465.82] everywhere and is there a way we could do it so that you can maximally leverage all of the goodness |
[465.82 --> 472.76] that already existed in the javascript uh ecosystem you know i mean that you you guys know us as well |
[472.76 --> 478.48] as we that there's just an enormous amount of effort being poured into javascript in the open source |
[478.48 --> 485.30] community around frameworks for for for for javascript right i mean the classic example is jquery but then |
[485.30 --> 491.68] you know beyond that it's just been astounding how many different frameworks there are and so part of |
[491.68 --> 499.00] our design sort of our key design goal was to make sure that that we could leverage all of that or that |
[499.00 --> 505.10] you wouldn't have to give up all of that um and that again you know led us basically to to design a |
[505.10 --> 513.18] superset of javascript that compiles to plain javascript and then i mean i think from there on it was it was |
[513.18 --> 518.58] really just sort of execution right i think that that was that was sort of like the core insight there was |
[518.58 --> 525.58] let's not try to let's not try to make your code in javascript by by having you coding something else |
[525.58 --> 531.02] because that's just never that's just never gonna never gonna leverage the knowledge that you already |
[531.02 --> 536.56] have and typescript really is it is just like coding in javascript i mean if you look at your method |
[536.56 --> 544.12] bodies they are exactly the same code because mostly we can infer the types for you um it's really just |
[544.12 --> 549.00] the sort of surrounding fluff like you know you can put type annotations on your parameters and and |
[549.00 --> 554.74] and whatever and you can write declaration files for existing frameworks so we can pick up the static |
[554.74 --> 561.70] type information that way so it was october 2012 when um it first went public like you said it was probably |
[561.70 --> 566.44] one or two years before that that you guys were working on it internally did you have internal teams |
[566.44 --> 574.28] using it um either in production or in research um prior to that public launch yeah it's been about |
[574.28 --> 581.08] three teams that were using it prior to it going public um one of those teams has now grown to become |
[581.08 --> 588.84] what's called monaco it's like an id in the web browser um part of visual studio online uh so that's |
[588.84 --> 594.32] that's been kind of cool to watch that they've they've been dogfooding since like long before it was public |
[594.32 --> 600.64] and have been tracking along with us as we've grown they've been growing as well yeah and then the uh |
[600.64 --> 607.40] the f12 tools in uh internet explorer uh were written in typescript uh before we had gone public |
[607.40 --> 614.40] uh and i think we have some asher properties that also used us uh before before we went out yeah |
[614.40 --> 620.50] yeah so what would you say just estimating the time span between ideation of let's do this superset |
[620.50 --> 625.70] of javascript with type annotations and having something working usable that your teams were |
[625.70 --> 631.26] using it internally we're talking six months a year um how long that yeah somewhere yeah somewhere |
[631.26 --> 637.30] somewhere in that range yeah yeah i would say yeah i mean we started there you know you you always get |
[637.30 --> 644.92] there in in circuitous circuitous ways right i mean you know in in the beginning the vision i just |
[644.92 --> 650.48] laid out wasn't actually that clear you know and we thought well maybe then also you know a key |
[650.48 --> 659.88] aspect is going to be having the vm use this type information to more efficiently execute the code |
[659.88 --> 667.22] and that's still an interesting idea but it turned out not to be the sort of design pivot that that we |
[667.22 --> 674.92] maybe thought in in in the beginning um i mean in a sense like becoming less ambitious made us better |
[674.92 --> 681.82] able to focus right once we started thinking tooling is the important part write es6 and make good tooling |
[681.82 --> 687.72] work on top of it so error checking and navigating to your code and i show up some of this and like the |
[687.72 --> 693.50] ng conf talk and if you guys saw it yeah but like you can you can just kind of quickly bounce around your code |
[693.50 --> 700.08] base doing refactoring renaming and and it's really like andrew's just saying you're still just just playing with |
[700.08 --> 704.92] javascript with a little bit of extra help yeah i guess maybe that question jared might be |
[704.92 --> 710.28] a little bigger than that so microsoft's been changing quite a bit over the last i'd say year |
[710.28 --> 716.10] at least that i can tell from the outside uh but you know adopting open source seeing seeing and embracing |
[716.10 --> 721.54] open source a lot more embracing the community embracing pull requests on github um and i'm wondering |
[721.54 --> 729.90] what role typescript plays in the future of microsoft's direction like being html css javascript |
[729.90 --> 736.06] focused in the operating system and on the phone and elsewhere how does you know how to top down this |
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