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[736.06 --> 740.08] come did it come from top down did it come from bottom up to see here's how we're solving solutions |
[740.08 --> 745.20] or solving these problems but also sort of microsoft's general direction for product |
[745.20 --> 752.72] yeah it's it's funny it's it's not that it came it's neither top down nor bottom up it sort of |
[752.72 --> 760.60] organically came from people who were more affinitized with areas that that that are in the open source |
[760.60 --> 768.04] space do you know what i mean it's like html javascript css whatever is is very affinitized with |
[768.04 --> 772.64] open source i would say because it's cross-platform it runs everywhere that's sort of its bread and butter |
[772.64 --> 777.92] right and and it's it's almost ridiculous to think about doing anything in that space without |
[777.92 --> 785.12] doing it open source um but but over time that has gotten truer and truer for for more and more areas |
[785.12 --> 791.08] right as as you know it all sort of started with developers started like very developer technologies |
[791.08 --> 797.72] and now it's sort of spread into more and more you know throughout the software ecosystem if if if you |
[797.72 --> 806.96] will i think i mean we were early uh with you know on on a microsoft time scale if you will with with |
[806.96 --> 813.96] open source and um and a lot of our learnings we we have shared with other groups in in the company |
[813.96 --> 819.96] and and and but now you know certainly in the division we sit in the developer division uh the |
[819.96 --> 825.18] default answer here is that it's open source unless you have good reasons why it shouldn't be |
[825.18 --> 831.84] uh and that's a big that's a big turnaround from where we were you know and that was certainly |
[831.84 --> 838.44] not the default when we started with typescript um but i will say i mean uniformly even at that time |
[838.44 --> 844.54] people sort of realized that we have to we have to do this it's more a question of how you know because |
[844.54 --> 851.26] this is a big company with a lot of engineering culture that that was just done differently right and |
[851.26 --> 858.82] and it you don't just change it overnight and and i would say even for us you know like we we sort of |
[858.82 --> 864.72] we sort of stumbled into open source in the in the beginning a little bit you know we we hosted on |
[864.72 --> 872.00] codeplex because that was microsoft's open source uh uh repository right then but that's not really where |
[872.00 --> 875.82] that community is and you come to realize that and you come to realize so they're sort of like doing |
[875.82 --> 881.40] open source and then there's doing open source the open source way and the latter takes a while to |
[881.40 --> 886.70] learn right i mean or there's just a culture there like there is in any vibrant community and then you |
[886.70 --> 892.62] sort of gotta experience it in order to to to live it right just to speak to your point about how early |
[892.62 --> 899.20] inside microsoft y'all were as far as open sourcing like you said october 2012 uh recently we had on the |
[899.20 --> 905.64] .net core team uh that's episode 134 and that was like december 2014 was when that show aired they had |
[905.64 --> 910.44] open source .net announced the open sourcing of it uh sometime before that but within six months |
[910.44 --> 917.02] so there's 2014 versus 2012 you guys were definitely one of the earlier teams was there a decision to be |
[917.02 --> 921.58] made or was it just a fact of like was there even a discussion like this is going to be open source or |
[921.58 --> 927.60] was that something that y'all had to come to i think it was you know to to to the people |
[927.60 --> 933.36] that were part of that decision i think it was clear to everyone that there's no way we're going |
[933.36 --> 940.72] to appeal to the javascript community if we're not open source um i mean we might we might appeal to |
[940.72 --> 948.16] a slice of the javascript community i.e the slice that uses microsoft tooling but but that wasn't really |
[948.16 --> 953.58] the slice that we wanted to appeal to we wanted to broadly appeal to the javascript community and and |
[953.58 --> 959.62] and and really sort of deliver value in that community right and and i think we all understood |
[959.62 --> 966.72] that that had that that had to mean open source uh it just had to and and does that speak to to |
[966.72 --> 971.94] your sensibilities because languages that you've had you know parted in the past delphi proprietary |
[971.94 --> 977.58] at least the compiler is i'm not sure is the specification for delphi open source or is that all |
[977.58 --> 986.48] proprietary stuff i don't know that there was one well there's your answer then um no it was not |
[986.48 --> 991.00] open i mean the heck open source hadn't been invented at the time i don't think you know so so |
[991.00 --> 996.46] there was there was just no way it could be i mean an open source it's it's stuff was around i mean |
[996.46 --> 1002.94] what year what year was that early 90s sure yeah yeah but i mean delphi goes all the way back to |
[1002.94 --> 1009.06] turbo pascal was in 83 right i mean and then and then delphi sort of grew out of that but yeah i |
[1009.06 --> 1015.02] i ecosystem there was an open source going on back then in the in the 90s when delphi was having its |
[1015.02 --> 1023.36] heyday right i'm not sure i because i i wasn't here yeah yeah yeah okay um but but either either way |
[1023.36 --> 1030.76] you know it's um i mean the world has changed right i mean and and and it's just you know back back then |
[1030.76 --> 1037.26] that was sort of how you you you you bootstrap yourself as a company you know and i i will say |
[1037.26 --> 1044.36] that the one thing i think that that turbo pascal and dan delphi both did was they um i mean turbo |
[1044.36 --> 1051.44] pascal at the time delivered a product that probably was an order of magnitude more efficient and cost an |
[1051.44 --> 1057.58] order of magnitude less than its competition right and so it maybe wasn't free but it was |
[1057.58 --> 1065.62] pretty close to free it was 50 bucks where the competition was 500 bucks um and uh and it ran at |
[1065.62 --> 1072.08] least 10 times faster than than the competition right so so so it so it it definitely it changed |
[1072.08 --> 1079.96] things or or it you know in in in other ways right um today it's it's funny how we how we sell software |
[1079.96 --> 1085.02] and how open source is financed because obviously ultimately someone has to foot the bill right but but |
[1085.02 --> 1091.08] but that's a different discussion right but it's it's it's yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a discussion |
[1091.08 --> 1097.46] we have often on changelogs we're often talking to to you know small startups who are trying to |
[1097.46 --> 1103.60] bootstrap a company and do open source or do open source and and it's still something that people |
[1103.60 --> 1109.98] are trying to figure out like is this even viable to have a purely open source company um so yeah huge |
[1109.98 --> 1115.24] discussions and interesting things but let's let's reel it back in and get back to where you guys |
[1115.24 --> 1122.40] are at because in 2012 you announced went public recently you know here we are in 2015 we've seen |
[1122.40 --> 1126.64] kind of a i don't know if i call it a groundswell quite yet but it's getting there where all of a |
[1126.64 --> 1133.26] sudden adoption is starting to really ramp up we have um angular 2 um announcing it'll be typescript |
[1133.26 --> 1140.76] driven dojo 2 definitely others what can you attribute that to is it just it just takes time |
[1140.76 --> 1146.10] uh how was it received let's stop there for a second how was it received when you guys first went public |
[1146.10 --> 1151.20] it was a mix of enthusiasm and suspicion |
[1151.20 --> 1158.18] i remember i remember the first day when we went public we were watching all the social media and the |
[1158.18 --> 1164.98] twitter and you know whatever the twitter uh and i'm i'm watching a stream of just negative just one |
[1164.98 --> 1170.32] after another and then another stream of positive i'm like oh my gosh and you know this is what it's |
[1170.32 --> 1176.98] like to to jump right into the pool and and get feedback immediately and it was it was interesting to |
[1176.98 --> 1183.78] kind of see once people started playing with it there was definitely a trickle maybe a trickle at first |
[1183.78 --> 1188.02] of people playing with it saying i'm never going to use this but i'm going to try it for five minutes |
[1188.02 --> 1194.50] and then after that going oh oh i get it i get why they did this this is actually kind of cool |
[1194.50 --> 1202.28] um and i think it took time for people to get over yes it's microsoft right okay get over that try it |
[1202.28 --> 1206.80] yeah and kind of move towards something of like it's just a tool it's just the tool for doing |
[1206.80 --> 1210.64] javascript and web programming and stuff when you say that it seems like there's a little bit of |
[1210.64 --> 1215.38] suspicion there you know maybe the the initial reaction was like why is microsoft doing something |
[1215.38 --> 1221.84] open source and you know in the in the vein of javascript especially back 2012 when we had no |
[1221.84 --> 1228.50] there's no precedence of microsoft doing you know large-scale open source projects no and our track |
[1228.50 --> 1234.86] track record and javascript perhaps wasn't the best at that time either so yeah i mean it's it's |
[1234.86 --> 1243.70] you know you i i always felt like uh you gotta you gotta earn it you know and and i i i was uh i was not |
[1243.70 --> 1250.86] surprised that we got the reaction that we did i was actually fairly uh happy that that we got as |
[1250.86 --> 1258.04] much positive reaction to it as as as we did um and i've always just believed but hey you know we're |
[1258.04 --> 1261.98] just going to stick to it we're going to deliver some some some good product here we're going to do |
[1261.98 --> 1266.40] some good engineering we're going to try and solve the problem because i think we had the right idea |
[1266.40 --> 1271.88] for how to solve it and then it'll they'll come well maybe they won't but let's but but we're going to |
[1271.88 --> 1277.06] believe that they'll come and then and now they're starting to come you know and then but but but but |
[1277.06 --> 1282.86] we've done a lot of hard work you know and we've tried to listen uh to to the community and we but |
[1282.86 --> 1288.46] we've also tried to have a point of view on how to solve this problem you know we're not we're not |
[1288.46 --> 1293.94] turning it into a kitchen sink which is very easy to do in in the javascript space too because there's |
[1293.94 --> 1299.94] there's a new technology or a new framework or a new methodology born every day right and so you sort of |
[1299.94 --> 1304.82] got to stick to your gun on certain areas or guns on certain areas but but then but then still listen |
[1304.82 --> 1310.90] uh to to the feedback um i think also one one thing that that i think we did right was |
[1310.90 --> 1319.72] to self-host and dog food from day one a lot of these transpilers well now they're not but in the |
[1319.72 --> 1327.04] beginning you know early on like gwit uh and and and script sharp were they target javascript but |
[1327.04 --> 1331.36] they're not written in javascript and they don't actually live and breathe the javascript community |
[1331.36 --> 1338.18] to do you know what i mean and i i felt that i felt that we had to do that um and the other thing i i |
[1338.18 --> 1345.34] would say that i i think was was a guiding principle was that we're not just writing a compiler here and |
[1345.34 --> 1352.16] then we're not really doing this we're we're doing this because it ultimately enables us to build |
[1352.16 --> 1357.94] great tooling and we're not just going to open source the compiler we're going to open source |
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