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**Autumn Nash:** \[06:02\] ...I don't know if it's gonna get better... You know what I mean? It will just be even more like fakeness... |
**Justin Garrison:** Two people show up in real world, they're like "Oh, so our bots talk to each other, right?" \[laughs\] |
**Autumn Nash:** I don't know if that makes it better. Like, you're just sitting there... It's like, there's so much fake stuff that we already have to present this version of us on social media or on dating apps... Doesn't that make a layer more of trying to figure out who's a creeper or not? The AI might make you thi... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. It's gonna be really weird. I don't know. We're putting it in everything because it's making money. Right now, this announcement with Copilot and Microsoft's - whatever the new Windows feature is that's making Copilot plus... |
**Autumn Nash:** Which Copilot - regular Copilot and an IDE is really good. This is like -- I don't know... |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, and that's GitHub Copilot, because there's -- like, Copilot is also the Microsoft-branded thing, which is just generic, like the Bing chat side of things. That's not coding. But there's GitHub Copilot, there's Bing Copilot... This is like the PC plus Copilot thing... |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah, they're kind of naming everything Copilot, which makes it hard to differentiate what -- |
**Justin Garrison:** They went hard on that naming, and now it's really hard to figure out which one's which. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah. I love using ChatGPT and different AI as like the rubber duckie to get out your ideas. I feel like it's made me so much faster of a writer for different talks and things, just because you can be like "Okay, I have all these ideas. What's interesting? What's already been done about it? Where would... |
But this is like -- we're almost taking the fun out of everything. I don't want it to create content for me, I want it to catch my spelling errors and like help me make it sound better. You're taking all the fun. |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, I mean I have spellcheck in my Vim without an AI bot, right? Those are things that a known dictionary of words also works. |
**Autumn Nash:** But I do think that at some point we can make better -- just regular things that we have, but we can make it better and more efficient with technology. But this is -- I don't know where we're going with this. |
**Justin Garrison:** To me, one of the best things about using a chatbot or AI in some way is the hallucinations, the actual extreme sides of things... For real. I'll use ChatGPT, or Midjourney, all of the other ones - like "Hey, do something along these lines", but then I try to trip it up enough to get something outs... |
**Autumn Nash:** That's kind of what I'm saying... But maybe not to that extreme. But it helps you -- not just that, but sometimes things can get so repetitive, and being able to quickly search what's out there, what is like the coolest, most off the wall ways to do this? Or like the different perspectives... But I jus... |
**Justin Garrison:** I guess most AI, if you're an expert on something, you're gonna be smarter than the AI is for just like general knowing things. But to summarize something else... And for me, thinking outside of the box. Like, "Hey, I want to think of this in a different approach." |
**Autumn Nash:** I also like it as a fun way to learn. Sometimes you can only read so much, and you can only watch so many videos... Sometimes having that back and forth conversational approach to learning a new subject, and then you can ask questions, and then you can be like "Okay, I get this and this. Now let's go d... |
**Justin Garrison:** Just being able to direct your interest, because you're like "Oh, that sentence was interesting. That one wasn't." And then it's like "Let's dive into this piece of it." And I do think that there is some value in like PDFs summarizations, and white papers, and those sorts of things. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah. And having somebody sort of explain something back to you is a different way of learning than reading it, right? Because you can ask questions when you're confused somewhere... But then there's also a lot of times where I've gotten that and it's been the wrong question... So I don't know. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. Well, and so what was -- Google recently had their developer conference, Microsoft Build is having their dev conference... Both of them all about AI. Apple's I think is next month. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[10:03\] Yeah, they're next. |
**Justin Garrison:** It's all going to be AI, I'm sure. So for anyone that wants to jump on Linux on the desktop, hit me up... |
**Autumn Nash:** Yo...! Half of Twitter's like "If Apple goes in hard, where's Linux?" And then somebody was like "Linux had 200 CVEs", and I was like "..." |
**Justin Garrison:** That is less than every other OS. |
**Autumn Nash:** I'm like, I don't know if you're making a case... Like, I think the case that you think you're making, you're not making... |
**Justin Garrison:** So yeah, it's been interesting... My article is similar, in that it's about Microsoft and AI... And this one's specifically calling out that Microsoft's AI obsession is jeopardizing its climate ambitions. |
**Autumn Nash:** I think this is really interesting, and I don't think we should just dog out Microsoft on this one, because this is everybody. When it comes to a data center, you're either picking between using a ton of water, or a ton of electricity. You know what I mean? And this is going to be everybody. We were ta... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. And I think this one specifically is -- this article is calling out Microsoft, because in 2020 they said they were going to be carbon-neutral by the end of the decade. And in the last year, they increased their carbon output by a lot, because of the new data centers and AI training... Because... |
I also wanted to call out - this is kind of ridiculous... They have a sustainability report Microsoft puts out, that this article is referencing... It is 88 pages of complete marketing nonsense. And I'm thankful for whoever was at The Verge who went through this and found the differences of like "Oh, this was hidden so... |
**Autumn Nash:** I just wanna thank tech reporters, because sometimes they at least tell you where to go look, so that you know what you're getting yourself into, but your know what you're looking for... You know, you can go back and check their sources, but at least they tell you what's up. |
**Justin Garrison:** And this was one thing -- I like to look at sources a lot. And so I opened up the sources, and I was like "There's no way that you could decipher what this one says, compared to the one they said from three years ago." |
**Autumn Nash:** But see, this is why I don't understand how people are so all-in on any source that is just kind of giving you like answers for something. We double-check our sources on Google. When you were in college, could you just submit any link that you wanted? No. You had to like verify your sources. We don't l... |
**Justin Garrison:** It's a non-determinate system. When you're trusting this big blob of information that gets spit out some way... And it's the same thing for humans; there's biases, and there's things that happen over time, and... |
**Autumn Nash:** And us humans are honestly going to mess up AI. Even if it had a chance of being great, we're going to put biased data into it, because we are biased. You know what I mean? So there always has to be -- you can't just trust one human, and you can't just trust AI. It's got to be checks and balances for e... |
**Justin Garrison:** But specifically for my article, I just found it interesting that -- well, four years ago, when your stock price would go up by being carbon-neutral, that's what Microsoft did. Four years later, when AI will make your stock price go up, that's what Microsoft did. And I feel like company over compan... |
**Autumn Nash:** First, it's the carbon neutral. It's also like -- people are like "We should hire people that are like diverse perspectives", and now they're like "Screw your perspectives." So I feel like we're on that in a lot of areas. Tech is getting weird. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. There is a lot of -- especially in big tech, I feel like a lot of just chasing the stock price, and doing whatever is going to drive that price... Because that is the ultimate thing. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[14:11\] Which kind of sucks, because we were building some cool stuff. And so much cool stuff just kind of like -- I mean, there are people, of course, still building cool stuff, but it's just like it seems like we're just doing the same thing over and over... And it's hard to get excited like we use... |
I think we've already found the cool things to do with it. And of course, there's going to be other cool things, but I'm just like -- |
**Justin Garrison:** There's a lot that might shake out still... But it's definitely not bubbling up to the surface, and the mainstream stuff is not what I'm asking for. It's not what a lot of people are asking for. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah, because I'm like "Dude, there's so many cool things that I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface on, or really like looked into." |
**Justin Garrison:** So with that depressing news, let's jump into the interview with Jon... |
**Autumn Nash:** We could be more depressing. We could talk about the market... |
**Justin Garrison:** Let's just sidestep all that. We're gonna talk about tars, we're gonna talk about Deflate, and we're gonna learn a lot about just how basically tars -- tars rule the world. And really, if you think AI's taking over, really, tars are the OG. They were here before AI. |
**Autumn Nash:** This is also a great example of when a developer is interested in something, their natural curiosity will go through the ends of the earth to find a good solution. It is the best. It's jut like, this is the epitome of software development right here. Like the warm and fuzzies. |
**Justin Garrison:** So let's jump to the interview and we will talk to you again after. |
**Break**: \[15:59\] |
**Justin Garrison:** Alright, welcome to the show today, Jon Johnson. Thanks for joining. Tell us a little bit about yourself. |
**Jon Johnson:** Hi. |
**Autumn Nash:** We're gonna stop laughing at some point... |
**Justin Garrison:** For anyone that's just joining this conversation, we've been talking for like a half hour now, and it's been a great conversation before the show, so we're just going to carry this right into the podcast. |
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