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Speaker A: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Doctor Rhonda Patrick. Doctor Patrick is known to some of you as a podcaster an... |
Speaker B: That's been, oh, that is so kind. Thank you. Thank you so much. |
Speaker A: It's absolutely true. |
Speaker B: I am so excited to be here having a conversation with you. |
Speaker A: Thank you. It's absolutely true. If anyone does their research, they will realize that the statement I just made is absolutely true. And there isn't even a close second. Any other public facing educators that have formal science training and do regular posting of content came in several years after you initi... |
Speaker B: I would love to. Let's take a step back. And I think you brought up a really important point here, and I think that point has to do with the intermittent challenging of yourself and whether that is through, you know, temperature changes like cold or heat, or through other types of stressors, like physical ac... |
Speaker A: Yeah, that's very helpful. And it brings to mind, in the context of the nervous system, I always tell people, you only have a small kit of neurochemicals to work with. There isn't dopamine for Netflix and then dopamine for relationship and dopamine for work, et cetera. Dopamine is a generic pathway by which ... |
Speaker B: I actually think that it's almost impossible. I mean, you'd have to eat nothing but the same plant all day, every day. I mean, the bioavailability of these compounds in the plants, they're attached to a food matrix. It's not like taking it in a supplement form as well. It's such that, like, it's very difficu... |
Speaker A: They get goit neck. |
Speaker B: Yeah. And they're like, iodine deficient on top of that. You know, I do think you can, of course, make, I mean, there are types of plants that are toxic in small quantities. Right? I mean, hemlock. Hemlock, exactly. |
Speaker A: They'll kill you. Folks don't play this game with hemlock. |
Speaker B: But you're not going to get poison from eating your serving of broccoli at dinner. Right. So, I mean, it depends on the plant. I don't. These generalizations are kind of, they're just not useful. And I think that a lot of people online, in the blogosphere, they gravitate towards them because it's just easier... |
Speaker A: Plants, meat and starches. I'm one of those rare omnivores out there. Now, I feel like it's rare to be an omnivore, but I think once you step out of the social media, as you said, the blogosphere, most people, I would say 99% of people on the planet, are probably omnivores. |
Speaker B: Right. |
Speaker A: And someone will probably correct me, but I doubt the number falls below 90 98. |
Speaker B: I think if you look at data, you know, and when we have carnivore data, like, I can't wait to see it. But, like, right now, it's a lot of. Okay, well, this is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And there's, you know, there's a good. There's a lot of good starts with anecdotes, but, like, people change a thousand t... |
Speaker A: That is amazing. |
Speaker B: In plasma. Yeah. |
Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt. I just want to make sure when. So broccoli sprouts are different than broccoli, and you just told us that they have much. They're much richer in these compounds. So note to self, I should have broccoli sprouts, not just broccoli. Can we cook the broccoli and still get these nutrients, or ... |
Speaker B: So the sulforaphane is formed from a compound called glucoraphanin, which is in the broccoli. And the enzyme that converts it into sulforaphane is myrosinase, and it's heat sensitive, so you do somewhat lower the sulforaphane levels when you cook the broccoli. However, there was a study a few years back that... |
Speaker A: So this is great, because I confess I like broccoli if it's cooked to the appropriate density, not too mushy, but definitely not raw. The idea of eating raw broccoli, to me, just sounds horrible. But I like the way mustard seed sounds. So just a little bit of mustard seed powder added to the cooked broccoli ... |
Speaker B: Yes. So what I do is I will, you know, lightly steam my broccoli and then I add a little bit of my Kerrygold butter, and then I add some mustard seed powder on the top of that, and it's got a little kick. Like, it's just a little spice, you know? And if you don't taste that, it's expired. Like, it should hav... |
Speaker A: And because I know people will want to know how often and how much, you know. Are you eating this every day or most days of the week? |
Speaker B: Well, I had shifted to supplementation with sulforaphane. I'm admitting right now that I've been terrible about it the past, like, I don't know, six months or so. |
Speaker A: The supplementation or the broccoli? |
Speaker B: Yes, the supplementation. And so there's another way to get. There's another compound, and it's actually called Moringa. And Doctor Judd Fahey, who's really the expert on the sulforaphane, he's a good friend of mine. He's been on the podcast a couple of times. He, he basically thinks, and, you know, has done... |
Speaker A: Cooly Cooley is a brand. |
Speaker B: Coolie Cooley's a brand that you have no affiliation. I have no affiliation, but Jud Fahey, like, has researched it, like that specific brand. And so it's like legit. It's legit, you know, it's like science backed in terms of actually containing Moringa and activating NRF two. And I add it to my smoothies. S... |
Speaker A: What are some dose ranges? And of course, we give the usual recommendations that people should talk to their physician, et cetera, et cetera. But if people are going to, what do you take? That's always the, let's take the table, the David Sinclairian approach. What do you. Where he'll talk about what he does... |
Speaker B: I do a big heaping tablespoon. |
Speaker A: So Moringa, Coolie Cooley, Moringa. It sounds like a song. |
Speaker B: It's with a k. I know, but for people also listening, it's like, well, why would I do that? I mentioned the glutathione in the brain. I mentioned it in plasma. It's been shown to lower DNA damage in people and white blood cells. It's also been shown. There's been several different studies in China. In China,... |
Speaker A: Yeah. You're mutating your DNA. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: To say nothing of the lung cancer. You're mutating your DNA. |
Speaker B: And heart disease risk. Heart disease risk. But anyways, people, and this has been repeated in more than one study, that literally after 24 hours of taking, I can't remember off the top of my head what the dose of sulforaphane from broccoli extract. Broccoli seed extract was. Or broccoli sprouts extract. Not... |
Speaker A: It's coming out in their urine. |
Speaker B: Coming out in their urine. Yeah. |
Speaker A: Well, I'm not a smoker, and I have to be honest, it's rare that I hear of a supplement for the first time, because I've been deep diving on supplements since I was in my teens. This is fascinating, and it brings me back to this question that we had before, and I. I appreciate that you've answered it very cle... |
Speaker B: Right. And that our bodies, we're supposed to be getting that stress to have those pathways activated. Like it is, like, you know. Right. I mean, this is conserved among different animals. Like, this is. This is something that is supposed to happen. And in our modern day world. We don't have to eat plants. W... |
Speaker A: I find that fascinating, and again, drawing a parallel to the nervous system. So what I'm hearing you say is that historically, we would have to go through some stress, some confront cold or confront heat or confront effort or hunger. Have to exercise, essentially, in order to obtain these compounds, and the... |
Speaker B: Can I add to that one thing you just said because. |
Speaker A: Please. |
Speaker B: Because this has been shown with, for example, sulforaphane in animal studies. You precondition, give the animal sulforaphane, and then you expose them to hypoxia or some kind of ischemic stroke condition, whatever they do to induce that. And the sulforaphane, it basically protects them like they're precondi... |
Speaker A: I'm really glad you brought that example up, because many of the questions I get on social media and elsewhere are about traumatic brain injury, and TBI is just one example. And people always think, oh, sports. It's football. Whenever you say TBI, people always think football. And I just want to just take a ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, a couple of things there. One is that, I mean, traumatic brain injury, I mean, it's terrible, but it's also. It's so interesting because it's also, like, literal, real time brain aging. Like, you know, like, it's. You're able to, like, accelerate it and understand. So I often think of, when I think of ... |
Speaker A: Or bicycle. |
Speaker B: Bicycle, yeah. |
Speaker A: Around Stanford we have, I would say, uh, people demonize motorcycles. People demonize a lot of things, but moving fast through space on a small object next to a 3000 pound vehicle, I mean, we've lost, we have a number of friends that have died, we have a number of people with traumatic brain injury. Um, I'm... |
Speaker B: Well, lungs for one, but just even in plasma cells, I mean, I think it's pretty. NRF two is pretty ubiquitously expressed liver. So there's, I mean, there's, there's so many animal studies that have looked at all those things. I try to kind of gravitate towards human ones because it's a little, a lot more re... |
Speaker A: You can link to the video here. |
Speaker B: But it's kind of an old video. It's 2016. But I also had Jed on the podcast and he did talk about this. But, you know, it's also been shown in randomized controlled trials to help treat autism and autistic symptoms. And yet again, it's doing interesting things in the brain. And I think it does have something... |
Speaker A: Is really for people listening. That's so important because a number of compounds that people take in supplement form don't cross the blood brain barrier, or they get metabolized in ways that what's listed on the bottle almost becomes irrelevant for what your cells actually experience. So that's very reassur... |
Speaker B: Omega three, the marine omega three fatty acids. So these are found in marine types of, you know, animals, fish, cold water fish, fatty fish. So there's three fatty acids. There's one from a plant, and that's often referred to as ala. People call it short alpha linoleic acid. And then there's icosapentanoic ... |
Speaker A: Yeah. I'm amazed you can pronounce two of the most difficult words to pronounce right next to and spell right next to ophthalmology, which, if you can spell it. I know people who have appointments in ophthalmology departments that don't know how to spell ophthalmology. A little secret. There's an extra p in ... |
Speaker B: Do you have a shellfish allergy? |
Speaker A: No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm not a big fan of shellfish, but I like, you know, I have oysters every now and again or shrimp or something and feel fine. |
Speaker B: So, yeah, we can talk about sources. So, um, krill is a, um, a. A source mostly of a type of DHA and EPA that's in phospholipid lipid form. So it's a phosphatidyl choline, omega three fatty acid. And that's different than most, most of the. Well, if we're talking about fish oil supplements, that's a differen... |
Speaker A: Oh, I would never eat krill. |
Speaker B: Are we talking about the supplements? |
Speaker A: Yes. I apologize. Yeah. Krill supplement versus fish oil supplement. And if it fits in the conversation, talking about great sources of, of omega three s in their whole form, I have a bad feeling you're gonna tell me. Sardines. |
Speaker B: Sardines? Yeah, they're awesome. Anyways, except for the taste and for the potential contaminants. Mercury, I think, was one. No, Joe. Yeah, it was mercury. And Joe was telling me about, like, he used to eat sardines every day. Joe Rogan was telling me that he used to eat sardines every day, and, and then he... |
Speaker A: Would you see this on the packaging? Is it going to say it's in this ethyl form? |
Speaker B: Some official brands will put it on their website, perhaps on their packaging, but you. Most the time you'll have to dig for it on the website and or call them. But I think for the most part, ones that are like higher end will market it like triglyceride form. And it's not that ethyl ester is bad. It just me... |
Speaker A: This is amazing for people. So these are prescription drugs that are essentially very high potency purified omega three s, but they're given to people for lipid issues. So this is the treatment of issues with fat metabolism by giving people fat? |
Speaker B: Yes. |
Speaker A: Just to really, I just want to push home again, I'm not carnivore keto or anything. I'm an omnivore. But, but to just push home, that one thing that's so wonderful that you've done over the years that you continue to do is to move away from these very broad, sweeping statements about fat is bad. I mean, here... |
Speaker B: Or you talk to your doctor and you say, I'm already taking this from. I mean, I don't know how it works. |
Speaker A: Anyways, what's the dosage that you recommend people get. So one way or another. |
Speaker B: All right. Okay. So the dosage that physicians prescribe for hydroglycerides, for example, is 4 grams a day. |
Speaker A: 4 grams of EPA, of. |
Speaker B: Yes, of the vascEpa. I think lavazza is also prescribed at 4 grams a day. And you can get either those from your physician. My father in law just got one of them subscribing. We were buying our own omega three for years and years. It's like, hey, you can actually get this, and health insurance can cover it, ... |
Speaker A: Normally I ask about mechanism, and then I talk about protocols or the why or the why. |
Speaker B: We haven't gotten there yet, but I think that. |
Speaker A: And we definitely will get there. A number of people nowadays are just really excited about what they can do for their health. And so here we're just raising the importance of omega three s, and then we'll definitely get to the why and the underlying mechanism. |
Speaker B: I think 4 grams is. I mean, and in fact, like, you know, Bill Harris, doctor Bill Harris is. He's just one of the pioneers on omega three fatty acid research. He was on our podcast, not, you know, last August, and he was saying the reason FDA chose that was literally just because how much they could get peop... |
Speaker A: I'm smiling because our good friend Sachin Panda at the Salk Institute, who's done a lot of important work on intermittent fasting and other incredible work on circadian rhythms, et cetera. When I was talking to him in preparation for an episode on intermittent fasting, I said, why the eight hour feeding win... |
Speaker B: So I take 4 grams a day, I take two in the morning, 2 grams in the morning, and I take 2 grams in the evening. I take my Epa in the morning, and I take my dha in the evening. |
Speaker A: Split them. |
Speaker B: I do. I don't know if. I don't think it's necessary. Not necessarily. I just happen to buy. I happen to get a certain fish oil supplement that's like, separates them. And so, like lavazza. Lavazza is a great one. And it's all like, in one. And it's easier. |
Speaker A: What if someone doesn't have a prescription? So I take over the counter fish oil. I know I feel better because I've done the experiment of going on and off. I take the main leaf for I don't have depression, but my mood is better, my joints feel better. I just feel better. And I like to think that my platelet... |
Speaker B: Yeah. So if you're asking for where do people get these fish oils? |
Speaker A: Well, let's say I look at the bottle and it says 2 grams per serving. But then I look and it's 750 milligrams of EPA, right? Or 1000 milligrams of EPA. Let's say half of it is EPA. Then do I want to hit a threshold of EPA or a threshold of what's listed on the bottle on the front of the bottle? Because my un... |
Speaker B: I think 2 grams of is a good threshold. Now, the international fish Oil standards, ifs O. They have a website where they do third party testing of a ton of different fish oil supplements from around the world. And they measure the concentration of the omega three fatty acids in the actual supplement because ... |
Speaker A: Mine's in the cupboard. |
Speaker B: So now I know the shelf life, you know, increased lower oxidation. |
Speaker A: Oh, it makes perfect sense, right? |
Speaker B: Yeah. So anyways, they measure that and I typically like to look for, they give you a total oxidation number. It's called Toto. No t o t o x. Totox is what we call it for short. And I like it to be at the least under ten, ideally under six. It's really hard to find all the right mixtures of things, but, um, ... |
Speaker A: No, I'm glad that you did the work. I'm going to put up a tweet every week with you tagged until this list is published online. Sorry, Rhonda, but I'm going to do it. I know it's very sadistic of me, but in service to the community and. |
Speaker B: Myself, and I chose five brands from you and I try to choose, I tried to find one in like Europe and one in Canada. So there's a great selection of. |
Speaker A: Thank you for doing that work. I don't want to do that work and I trust you. So, yeah, I try and get 2 grams per day of EPA from supplementation. I'll now put it in the refrigerator. Mood is better. I made that decision mainly based on the data that I'm aware of. Looking at comparison of people doing that an... |
Speaker B: So, do you know? So I actually published a paper back in 2015 about the role of omega three and vitamin D in depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and impulsive behavior. But so, like within that paper, like doing background research, and this was a review article, by the way. I was just connecting dot... |
Speaker A: No, I'm gonna grab. I confess I don't know the paper, but I love quality reviews because the references they're in are so useful. |
Speaker B: Well, there's a huge role for inflammation, the cause of inflammation and depression. And I think we did a short animated video on this as well, like years ago, back when I was publishing that work where people are injected with lipopolysaccharide. I mean, this is something that we're generating from our gut... |
Speaker A: Amazing. And LP's lipopolysaccharide is no joke. Years ago, when I was working on thermal regulation, we would inject animals with LP's to induce fever. The vagus nerve registers the presence of LP's signals to these particular hypothalamic areas and cranks up body temperature because basically it's a signal... |
Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And you know, to kind of, boy, we have, we got a lot of things to hit back on because one of your original questions was krill oil versus fish oil. DHA specifically is in phospholipid form. It's more bioavailable. So our bodies, if you're comparing exact quantity or concentration in triglyce... |
Speaker A: That'S what made me itchy all over. |
Speaker B: I think they're just like, I haven't found a good krill oil supplement. I pretty, pretty much stay away from it. I mean, if you smell it, too, I mean, it's just like, it just smells rancid. So. But the thing is, and I also published a paper on this back in 2019 or, yeah, something like that, about dHA in pho... |
Speaker A: So people with an Alzheimer's susceptibility, right? |
Speaker B: So, like, 25% of the population has an allele and a gene called apoe four. And basically it's apoe, but the four is referred to as the bad kind of version of it. This is something in our bodies, it's also in our brain. And if people have one of these versions, if they got one from their mom or their dad, the... |
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