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Speaker A: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk is one of the most celebrated and accomplished profession... |
Speaker B: Thanks. |
Speaker A: I'm particularly thrilled to have this conversation because I've tracked your career for a very long time. Grew up in the skateboard thing. |
Speaker B: I know. |
Speaker A: Had your poster on my wall. |
Speaker B: Oh, thank you. |
Speaker A: Your name is synonymous with skateboarding, as you know. I think a question that probably get asked from time to time, but let's just clarify the data from the outset. Tony Hawk is your real name, right? |
Speaker B: Yes, Anthony Frank Hawke. But I never went by Anthony. I mean, my parents call me Tony's and so could remember. |
Speaker A: So it's a fitting name given the sport and what you do. And we will get into this a little bit later when we talk about family and parenting and parents. But I'll allude to the story now that, uh, when I was 14 years old, your parents took me in. Yeah, I slept in your bed, in your home, not with you in it, b... |
Speaker B: Been right after I moved out. |
Speaker A: So this would be. I was 14 years old. Maybe I'll just tell the story now very briefly. I was 14 years old. I was at a contest at Lindavista boys club. Everyone left me and another kid named Billy Waldman were still there. Your dad said, where are you going? It was clear that I didn't know where I was going. ... |
Speaker B: I mean, that tracks. That would definitely. My dad and my mom together would be doing that. Yes. |
Speaker A: Incredible people. And we'll get back to that story later. Cause you and I actually met the next day in Fallbrook at your ramp. |
Speaker B: Oh, Fallbrook. So it had been 88. 89. |
Speaker A: That's right. I'm gonna say 89. |
Speaker B: Okay. |
Speaker A: And it must have been one of the either NSA or castle contests that your dad was very active in. Well, we'll get back to that. But I have so many questions that relate to skateboarding to you, and really, as a neuroscientist, to the whole concept of a life of continual progression, because whether or not peo... |
Speaker B: When I was young, I was put in a lot of advanced classes, and not that that felt like a badge of honor. It felt more like I was just classified as a nerd. But then I thought, okay, well, that's my strength, so I'll lean into that. And I thought that maybe I would be a teacher, because I thought, well, I get ... |
Speaker A: Did you stop playing all the other sports? |
Speaker B: Yeah, I quit little league in the middle of the season when my dad had been appointed president of that chapter of little league because he was the coach, he was always very involved in all of his kids. I have three siblings, so he was always very supportive, whatever they were doing. And then when I was pla... |
Speaker A: Did you immediately start skateboarding in the parks on transition, as we say, or were you pushing around in the driveway like most kids? |
Speaker B: I was transportation, and skating was kind of a fad. So I started in 78, roughly, maybe 77 even. And it was kind of a fad. So kids just had skateboards, and they would all cruise around, you know, like it was the seventies, so everyone had a bike, right? And you knew where all the kids were because the bikes... |
Speaker A: That was Del Mar skate park. |
Speaker B: Skate park. Oasis. |
Speaker A: Okay. Oasis. |
Speaker B: Oasis Skate park was the first one in our area. Actually, I take that back. Spring Valley was the first skate park. I tried to go there, and I was nine and you had to be ten. And I remember sitting in the parking lot looking over the fence, and my dad didn't realize what they. Cause my dad would have easily ... |
Speaker A: Cause I think of you as synonymous with Del Mar skate ranch. |
Speaker B: Sure. Well, that came later because Oasis skatepark was open. So this was when I first went, was like, 78. A friend of mine was going, and he said, I'm gonna go to the skate park. So I had to go get. You know, it's such a hassle. Like, I had to go get the authorization form. I had to get it notarized by the ... |
Speaker A: Your dad's involvement is interesting because I got into skateboarding because my dad wasn't around that much at that time. A lot of kids get into skateboarding because it doesn't require parent involvement. Was it unusual to have parental involvement at that stage? Yeah. I mean, I remember Frank, and by the... |
Speaker B: It was. I mean, and in that respect, it was great to have his support and to rely on him for that. The fact that he was always around and that he was in charge of a lot of the events, that sucked because it just marked me as one being favorited and spoiled. And most of my friends, their parents didn't want t... |
Speaker A: Did it push you harder? Like, you know, if you could prove yourself with a skateboarding, then you didn't have to worry about any claims of favoritism, because ultimately, you can't fake skateboarding, right? I mean, there's no deep fake version of skateboarding. You know, you either can do it or you can't d... |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, I had all kinds of things going against me at the time. |
Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't think people will realize this unless they met you in person, but nowadays there are few taller skateboarders out there. Cause the sport's grown so much. But you're pretty tall. You're like six. |
Speaker B: Six three. But I was not when I was growing, when I was that age, I was very small and kind of concerningly small, because by the time I got to be 16, I was still. I looked like I was 13. I used to get pulled over. I literally, like, I had a car that I bought with my earnings. I had a Honda Civic, 1977 CBCC.... |
Speaker A: Okay, so that's interesting, and we can get back to this when we talk about your almost remarkable levels of ability to recover from physical injuries, because, well, I'll just share a little bit of a biological theory here, which is that there are a lot of people that study longevity, and perhaps the fastes... |
Speaker B: Right. |
Speaker A: Other kids, it's very, very long. And it sounds like we don't have to talk about when you hit puberty and the other markers, but it sounds like your growth spurt occurred late. That's a terrific marker of a long life, by the way, because what it reflects is the onset of a big burst of growth hormone out of t... |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. |
Speaker A: So this may have important and fortunate consequences. So at 17, you shot up. Am I correct in remembering? Maybe you said it, maybe somebody else did, that you were, forgive me, but so skinny when you were a kid that you actually wore elbow pads as knee pads. |
Speaker B: Yeah, that's a true story for sure. I took inspiration from others that I identified with, namely Steve Caballero, because he was already an established pro when I started to come up in the ranks or even get noticed at all. And he was wearing elbow pads on his knees in this full page picture of him in Winche... |
Speaker A: And as I recall, Stevie also has a pretty severe scoliosis, right? |
Speaker B: Like, at one point, he has. |
Speaker A: At one point, he was turned, turned pretty, pretty tight to the, to the right or left? I don't recall which, I mean, still incredible. Skateboarder loves Stevie. He's a norcal guy. So I grew up, I know whatever. |
Speaker B: He had is from birth, but. But it was more that his size, and I didn't even know he was many, not many, but at least four years older than me. So I just was like, oh, there's small guys doing that. I can do it, maybe. But when I got tall, when I went through puberty, suddenly I had all these tricks, and then... |
Speaker A: Yeah. Isn't that wild when the nervous system knows how to do something and then your body changes and you can do the same thing, but with so much more force? |
Speaker B: Even the bowls look smaller. When I would stand on top of them, I was like, wait, this isn't that big. |
Speaker A: It's wild. Well, the reason I ask about this, I think people listening generally seem to assume that if you become a Stanford professor or become a professional skateboarder, or you become a professional soccer player, that you were just fated to become that. It's clear that it's the confluence of so many di... |
Speaker B: Well, there was none of that to be had. So we didn't have these great aspirations because no one had really done that before. You could have some success. Yes, you could have maybe a signature model, but even the top sales of skateboarding then wasn't a career. The prize money was $150 for first place, 100 f... |
Speaker A: A couple tanks of gas, some food. |
Speaker B: Yeah, let's put it this way. I turned pro when I was 14. By the time I was 15 and a half, and I had a learner's permit and I could drive a scooter. I had $600 in my bank account, and I used that to buy a Honda express moped for a year and a half. That was my earnings was dollar 600. |
Speaker A: So clearly, money wasn't the dopamine hithennezhe. It was the actual skateboarder. |
Speaker B: Sure. And that's what I mean, though, there was no goal of that because it just didn't exist. So I didn't care. Like, are you kidding me? I have my own vehicle at age 15. Like, I was living large. I could get to the skate park on my own. That was amazing. |
Speaker A: To be 14 and be a professional at anything. Must be a trip, so to speak. But what I'm wondering about, because I came up when I, your early cohort with pal Peralta. So for those that don't know, so called Bones brigade, right. I guess it was, what, total, what, like six, seven guys? There were some that were... |
Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think it was that I didn't never. I never. That was never a goal. And then when I had a sense of it, I was very uncomfortable. I mean, I was happy. I was happy to be successful. I was happy that people recognized me. That was amazing. Just because I was good at skateboarding. I never imagined s... |
Speaker A: Gosh, this is the last words I would ever use to describe you. |
Speaker B: I think it was just more that people would see me. Like, I'd go to a ramp. I didn't know anybody, and I would just start skating, and I'd do all my stuff, and they were like, oh, he doesn't even talk to anyone. And it was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to act. |
Speaker A: Also, you're 14 years old, right? |
Speaker B: Broke me out of that, because I remember one time, there was a kid that was just staring at me, like, hold my skateboard. He had my signature model, and he said, go say hi to that guy. What? Are you sure? Like, he wants to interact with you. Just go high five him or anything. And I learned to break out of my... |
Speaker A: You mentioned Stacy. We should probably clarify for people. Tony's referring to the great Stacy Peralta. |
Speaker B: Yeah. He was the one who put me on the bones brigade when I was still considered sort of a circus act. My skating was not really established. The stuff that I was doing was largely made fun of because people thought that what I was doing was just more like a free show. |
Speaker A: Can you explain more? And let me just tell you that my first recollection of you, that I still have that image in my mind, is the finger flip air. For folks that aren't familiar with skateboarding, people ride around on transition or in the street handrail stairs. You know, people probably familiar with all ... |
Speaker B: I would say kind of just before that, in that window is when people were. Were more giving me flack for what I was doing, because I was mostly doing board variation stuff, but I still. |
Speaker A: Didn'T have the height, the height in. |
Speaker B: Terms of the height, in terms of getting in the air. So I was doing all the stuff kind of right at coping level. And so people weren't taking it into consideration or giving it much merit because it was just like, oh, he's doing a little board twist or a bar turn. And then when I started to get some height, ... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I remember that because I was from northern California, and Thrasher magazine was a skateboard magazine from northern California. Actually wrote for them for a while when I was a postdoc to make some extra money under a different name, folks. But you can try and find those articles. They're out there. ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, it was Trans World skateboarding. And Thrasher magazine were the two the rivals, right? Yeah. |
Speaker A: So, yeah, I recall some of those things that were said. It just is amazing to me. But it brings about a really important lesson, which is that kid that gets made fun of, if they're determined and they love what they're doing, that's going to be the kid that blows everyone away later. And I know this for sure... |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. |
Speaker A: So one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest street skateboarder, if you can't really define these things, greatest and whatnot in skateboarding. But, you know, I remember thinking, this guy's just. He's a kook. And then I realized who it was, and then I realized he was just like any other kid there at some ... |
Speaker B: I didn't really have a support group or any resource to voice those concerns. I just knew I wanted to keep getting better. That was it. And so if anything, if I was worried about those voices, if I was worried about whatever take people had on me, I knew I was going to go back to the skate park and learn mor... |
Speaker A: The thing was big, but I also recall the hips, as they're called, the transitions, the way they match up were. |
Speaker B: Super tight, lotiver giant coping, super rough. Like if you fell in Upland, you're getting chewed up. It's pulling your knee pads down. |
Speaker A: I didn't know that because from the photos I wouldn't know that. |
Speaker B: Oh, it was, it was treacherous. It really was like, it was. And, and I wanted to do well at the event and I would drive up there every weekend. Like my friend Greg Smith was a freestyler, but he lived near Upland and so I would go drive Friday after school, straight to Upland, skate at night, skate Saturday ... |
Speaker A: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic greens. Athletic greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podca... |
Speaker B: It comes in different forms, but for the most part I think about how I could combine existing tricks and would this trick work going into this trick? And could your body position shift or would it all work in unison? And when I approach a new trick, I'm saying more. In the last 20 years, my thought process i... |
Speaker A: Let's break that down for you. 360 shove it. So who's going to take this on? I'll let you take this on. I can try from my knowledge and perspective, but why 360 shove? |
Speaker B: It is pushing the board with your feet and letting it spin. A full 360 rotation under your feet and then landing back on it. It's a trick that people do on usually on flat ground. I've learned to do it up on the vert walls. Like, I can do 360 shovets, kind of in the air, but I'm doing that. I'm doing a 360 s... |
Speaker A: Like the axle between the wheels on. |
Speaker B: One axle in a what we call 50 position, which is basically a wheelie on the truck. So everything is so precise. I got to do 360 shove it at exactly a certain spot on the wall. I've got to catch it so that my truck lands when my foot hits it. I can't push it into the truck because that screws up my balance. S... |
Speaker A: In thinking about the 360 show at 500 fakie, was that something that you thought of the night before you decide that day? Do you ever use visualization? Have you ever had learning come to you in a dream or find that you tried, tried, tried something, went to sleep that night, next day, made it anything like ... |
Speaker B: Yes. Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll write down something because it was like, oh, there's this trick. Oh, I think I could do that. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna write it down. |
Speaker A: So you dream about skateboarding from time to time? |
Speaker B: Yeah. Well, yeah, that has shifted a bit after I got hurt, but, yeah, I used to dream that I can't skate like I'm trying, and that it feels like the ramp's made a carpet. I can't get the speed, I can't get the timing. And then as I went through this traumatic injury, my dreams shifted to, wow, I can skate. I... |
Speaker A: Oh, interesting. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: A little piece of science around the can't can't skate piece. Or when people feel like they're bolted down in a dream or they can't run away. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: There's this one phase of sleep called rapid eye movement sleep, where the brain is very active. The dreams associated with it tend to be very vivid, and at the same time, we are completely paralyzed. And the idea is that no one really knows why, but that it's the case that we're paralyzed to prevent us from... |
Speaker B: You wake up and actually, a couple of my kids have struggled with that a couple times. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Rem interference, it's called. It's not dangerous. And usually people can jolt themselves out, but it's kind of terrifying. So that's interesting. We'll get to a discussion about the recent injury, and thankfully, recovery from the injury not miraculous, because that makes it seem as if it's surprising... |
Speaker B: When I was doing it in my dream, there was always some roadblock that I just couldn't like, why can't I get any speed? Why can't I snap or do this trick? It's more in the moments where it's twilight moments where I'm kind of awake and I'm thinking about tricks that everything else falls away, and I can actua... |
Speaker A: Okay, we can walk through this half cab cab has come up backwards. Go 360. Right. So half of that would go one. |
Speaker B: As I approach the top of the ramp. Yeah, I body rail. That means I jump around and then I jump around on my board, and then I make sure that it lands with my two trucks out and my tail on the coping, which is very precarious. And I've done that and come in Fakie before. |
Speaker A: That's the blunt piece. |
Speaker B: That's the blunt. So I've done that. And then you have to use your feet to lift up the board. Coming Fakie. Right. I've done that. I've done that twice. And I thought, well, I wonder if there's something I could do like that. And then I realized that if I just keep coming around and I come in backside direct... |
Speaker A: I think I saw a clip of this on Instagram. I did it. |
Speaker B: Yeah, I did it. X games. And that was like, it was my last run. I was. It was. I mean, it didn't move the needle. I got 7th place. But for me, it was a huge momentous. |
Speaker A: It felt amazing, I bet. |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, it was like weeks of preparation and trying to figure this thing out. I made it twice before the event, on my own, alone, on my ramp. But that's just an example of. I was literally falling asleep, and then all of a sudden it was like, half gut body veil backs up blunt. |
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