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I think the DNC should be ashamed of themselves for allowing themselves to be hacked. They had bad defenses. And they were able to be hacked. |
But I heard they were trying to hack the Republicans too. But -- and this may be wrong, but they had much stronger defenses. |
TAPPER: Now, Senator Warner, obviously, the Russians are responsible for Russian actions. |
But looking at the indictment and everything we know now about the Russian election interference, in retrospect, shouldn't President Obama and his administration have done much more? |
WARNER: Jake, our committee will lay out what the Obama administration and the FBI should have done or shouldn't have done shortly. But the basic facts remain. |
The reason why we have difficult relations with Russia is not because of the Mueller probe, but because Russia intervened in our elections. They hacked into the Democratic National Committee, hacked into Hillary Clinton's team. |
They interfered in over 20 states' electoral systems. They used social media in ways that were unprecedented. This was a full-on assault on our democratic system. And, matter of fact, as the intelligence community assessment made and our committee reaffirmed, they did it with the intent of helping Trump and hurting Cli... |
That's the reason why we have difficult relations with Russia. And I'm stunned that this president will not call out Vladimir Putin or Russia's bad behavior. |
TAPPER: Well, with all due respect, sir, you didn't answer my question, which is, President Obama did not do enough to stop this while it was going on in 2016. |
I think that seems obvious to anybody reading the indictments or reading the newspaper for the last two years. Do you disagree? |
WARNER: I think that the FBI could have done more. |
As a matter of fact, when the October 7th letter came out where the Obama administration did point out the threat of Russian interference, strangely enough, it was the exact same day that both the Podesta e- mails were hacked and released, and it was the same day of the famous so-called Bush "Hollywood" tapes. |
TAPPER: President Trump was asked this morning by CBS if he would consider pushing for the extradition of these 12 Russian military intelligence officials accused of hacking and interfering in the election. Take a listen to his response. |
TRUMP: I hadn't thought of that, but, certainly, I will be asking about it. |
But, again, this was during the Obama administration. They were doing whatever it was during the Obama administration. |
TAPPER: So, he says he hadn't thought about requesting the extradition of these 12 officials. |
What do you want President Trump to do when he meets with Vladimir Putin in the building behind me tomorrow? |
WARNER: Listen, I don't think Putin will probably deliver those 12 Russian spies, but I sure as heck think the president of the United States ought to ask that these Russian spies are actually released to the American government for American legal process to continue. |
They attacked our government. This is -- and, again, let's take the Mueller investigation in full, over 30 indictments, five guilty pleas. And we still have whole questions around obstruction of justice, and the various people who were part of the Trump campaign who are now cooperating with the government to see whethe... |
TAPPER: But just to ask you, do you have any hesitation criticizing President Trump while he's overseas, given the old adage that politics should stop at the water's edge? |
WARNER: Listen, I'm saying to Mr. Trump and to his White House, let's make sure that we put more people in that meeting with Vladimir Putin, a trained KGB agent. |
We need to make sure that the Americans and, for that matter, the world gets the straight story of what happens in that meeting. |
But let's also examine the fact this is a president throughout the last week who has basically treated our allies like adversaries in ways that were, I believe, totally inappropriate, and continues to treat our adversaries -- tries to act like they are -- like they are friends. |
I don't believe that is in the best interest of making America safer. |
TAPPER: You raised president behavior -- President Trump's behavior at the NATO summit. |
The NATO secretary-general has said that President Trump has had success in pushing U.S. allies to spend more on defense, which has long been a charge of U.S. presidents. |
Take a listen to this exchange. |
JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Last year was the biggest increase in defense spending across Europe and Canada in that generation. |
STOLTENBERG: It's also because of your leadership, because there is a clear message. |
TRUMP: They won't write that. |
STOLTENBERG: No, I have said it before. And -- but the thing is that it really has -- your message is having an impact. |
TAPPER: That's the U.N. secretary general, Stoltenberg, crediting President Trump with getting U.S. allies to chip in more. Isn't it fair to say that his strategy here is working? |
WARNER: Well, Jake, clearly, I think other NATO company -- countries should chip in more. That's been a goal of American through Democratic and Republican administrations for decades. |
But, at the end of the day, we will see if that actually happens. This president has a tendency to make bold statements after meetings, and there may or may not be results afterwards. |
Let's go back to the president's photo-op opportunity with Kim Jong- un. After that meeting, he said -- if I remember correctly, he tweeted that Americans can sleep soundly because North Korea is no longer a nuclear threat. |
Well, we have clearly seen that that declaration was not true in terms of the follow-up meetings and in terms of our own intelligence assessments that North Korea has done virtually nothing to actually denuclearize. |
So, the proof will be in the pudding. Let's see if these European countries actually step up and spend more. I would be very -- I would be pleasantly surprised if that proves to be the case. |
TAPPER: All right, Senator Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, thanks so much for your time, as always. |
And even after Friday's indictments Republican senator Rand Paul says, he still thinks there's no need for a special counsel. We'll talk about that next. |
TAPPER: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper in Helsinki, Finland. |
And we are live from Allas Sea Pool in Helsinki. You can see the Presidential Palace behind me. That's where tomorrow's historic U.S.- Russia summit will take place. The meeting is causing some anxiety among some Republicans, fears that President Trump might give too much away or not be tough enough. |
But Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky says that President Trump doing the right thing by meeting with Putin face to face. |
Senator Paul -- thanks so much for joining us, as always. |
Just 48 hours ago the U.S. government, the Trump administration said that top Russian military intelligence officers orchestrated a massive hack to affect the U.S. election. How much do you want President Trump to try to hold Putin accountable for that? |
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: I think really we mistake our response if we think it's about accountability from the Russians. They are another country. They are going to spy on us. |
The do spy on us. They are going to interfere in our elections. We also do the same. |
Doug Levin at Carnegie Mellon studied this over about a 50-year period in the last century and found 81 times that the U.S. interfered in other country's elections. So we all do it. |
TAPPER: It sounds as though you are saying that the United States has done the equivalent of what the Russians did in the 2016 election and it might sound to some viewers that you're offering that statement as an excuse for what the Russians did. |
PAUL: No, what I would say it's not morally equivalent but I think in their mind it is. And I think it's important to know in your adversary's mind the way they perceive things. |
PAUL: I'm not saying it's justified -- yes, go on. |
TAPPER: -- done -- the United States has never done what Russia did. |
Yes. Go on, I'm sorry. |
PAUL: I'm not saying -- I'm not saying -- yes, I'm not saying they're equivalent or morally equivalent but I am saying that this is the way the Russians respond. So if you want to know how we have better diplomacy or better reactions, we have to know their response. |
But it's not just interference in elections that I think has caused this nationalism in Russia. Also, I think part of the reason is, we promised them when James Baker at the end when Germany reunified, we promised them that we wouldn't go one inch eastward of Germany with NATO. And we've crept up on the borders. |
We still have neo-cons in both parties who want Ukraine and Georgia to be a NATO. That's very, very provocative and it has stimulated and encouraged nationalism in Russia. |
TAPPER: I want to get to NATO in a second but just to underline this point about what the United States should do in response to the Russian election interference. In a new interview just this morning, President Trump said he -- quote -- "hadn't thought of asking Putin to extradite those 12 Russian military intelligenc... |
Do you think President Trump should ask for the extradition when they meet tomorrow? PAUL: I think it would be a moot point. I don't think Russia is sending anyone back over here for trial. The same way we wouldn't send anybody over there for trial. |
No country with any sovereignty or sense of sovereignty is sending anybody to another country for trial. I think we have to protect ourselves. |
So because we waste time saying, well, Putin needs to admit this and apologize, he's not going to admit that he did it. And we can't take with -- on face value anything they tell us. |
We have to assume and if we have proof that they did it, which it sounds like we did, we should now spend our time protecting ourself instead of sort of having this witch hunt on the President. |
If the President was involved by all means put the information forward. There is no evidence so far of the President's involvement at all in this. |
So I think we need to be done with this so we can start actually protecting our elections from foreign countries. |
TAPPER: Well, you just called this a witch hunt but if it were not for this probe, if it were not for Robert Mueller, the American people would not know about the Russian military intelligence officers who are hacking American e-mails, stealing voter information, releasing stolen information to influence the election. ... |
PAUL: Yes. I would say that this is a Department of Justice investigation and that would still have ensued in either way. I wish President Obama had been more aggressive in pursuing it during President Obama's term. But I think the Department of Justice can get to the bottom of this without sort of a special counsel. |
I think the Mueller investigation, the problem with special counsels is exactly what happened in the Starr investigation and that is that they run far afield of it. |
But I do think the Department of Justice would have investigated the Russians and I think indicting these officers that were hacking the elections is a good thing. |
TAPPER: This week in the Senate -- I want to talk about NATO now because you brought it up. This week the Senate voted 97-2 in favor of a motion that supports the NATO alliance. This was a nonbinding motion expressing the Senate's support for NATO, calling on negotiators to reaffirm the U.S. commitment to NATO. |
You were one of the two in the 97-2. You voted against it. There is consensus that NATO has served an essential role in stabilizing Europe which ultimately has prevented the United States to need to take military action and to also check Russian aggression. |
You talked about how NATO has moved closer and closer towards the Russian border. A lot of experts say that's because Russia has continued to expand and take territory in Ukraine, in Crimea, in Georgia. Do you support NATO? |
PAUL: I think it's sort of chicken and the egg. Which happens first -- either NATO's expansion or Russia pushing back or vice-versa. |
I will say that when you look at NATO, what I voted against was an ironclad commitment to defend any nation in NATO and they also said that they want an open door policy in NATO to admit any aspirant. So I think that is very foolhardy to say we're going to defend any country in the world that wants to be a NATO and we'... |
That is a recipe for disaster. NATO has had historic achievements and has been part of, you know, what was deterrence to Russia. |
But the interesting thing now is that European forces are 13 times bigger than Russian forces. European plus U.S. forces are probably 30 times bigger than Russia forces. So right now there's a disproportionate advantage to the west with NATO. |
I'm not saying we disband NATO but I don't think we should have an open door policy. |
TAPPER: I just think there are a lot of people out there who would be surprised to hear a sitting United States senator describe Russia versus NATO in terms of confrontation and expansion as a chicken or egg proposition given the fact that NATO protects sovereign countries while allowing them to remain sovereign while ... |
PAUL: Right. Well, what I would say is that there were people -- probably the greatest diplomat of the last country was -- of the last century was George Kennan. And he did predict as NATO expanded that you would incite militaristic tendencies and nationalism in Russia. |
I'm not justifying Russia's aggression in Ukraine or in Georgia. I'm not saying they are equivalent. I'm saying though that the provocation of pushing NATO forward after we promised -- James Baker promised Gorbachev in 1990 when Germany unified that we would not go -- the west would not go one inch beyond Germany. And ... |
And so for every action that we put out there, there is a reaction. And I think we need to think this through. And it's not a moral equivalency. |
It's not justifying Russia's behavior. But it is realizing that from Russia's perspective, they see NATO expansion as a threat and that part of their militarism, part of their nationalism may be inherent to the tides of the current century there. But it's also in reaction to policy from the west as well. |
TAPPER: Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, we thank you for your time as always, sir. Good to see you. |
TAPPER: How is the Russian president approaching tomorrow's summit? And what it's like to be in the room face to face with Vladimir Putin? We'll talk to someone who has been there, next. |
TAPPER: Welcome back to the special edition of STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper live in Helsinki, in Finland. |
Donald Trump is the fourth U.S. president to face off with Vladimir Putin who first took office on New Year's day 2000. Let's bring in two Russian born journalists who have written extensively about Putin and the Putin era. |
Masha Gessen spent 20 years covering Russian politics as a reporter in Moscow and wrote a biography of Putin. |
Julia Ioffe is also a former Moscow based correspondent who has been writing about Russian politics for more than a decade. |
Masha, let me start with you. My first question is in your latest piece "Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and the Triumph of Nothing Over Everyone." You write -- quote -- "In Russia in only thing that matters about the summit is the bare fact of it. Is the hollow power gesture taken to its world-stage extreme." |
What do you think is Putin's mind-set heading into this? He just is declaring victory because he's getting the summit to -- to begin with? |
MASHA GESSEN, "THE NEW YORKER": Absolutely. |
I mean, this is a huge change in American policy toward Russia -- or apparently a huge change -- over the last four or five years. |
He is getting the meeting with no agenda, no clear items that the American president is going in with. And he gets to demonstrate to Russia that he has reestablished the bipolar world that he has been promising. |
TAPPER: And, Julia, President Trump seems to be ambivalent about what might be able to come out of this summit. |
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nothing bad is going to come out of it. And maybe some good will come out. |
But I go in with low expectations. I'm not going in with high expectations. I don't -- I don't really -- I can't tell you what's going to happen, but I can tell you what I will be asking for. And we will see if something comes of it. |
TAPPER: Julia, what do you make of that argument, nothing bad could come out of this? |
JULIA IOFFE, "THE ATLANTIC": I think a lot of bad has already happened. |
I mean, the fact that this meeting is still happening three days after a sweeping indictment of 12 Russian intelligence officers, military intelligence officers, who laid -- an indictment that laid out in great detail the way the Russian government meddled in our election. |
President Obama canceled a meeting with President Putin after putting invaded Ukraine, which most Americans, I think, don't care about. This is effectively an invasion of the U.S., and this meeting is still happening for no clear reason. |
And, for Putin, who is a very zero sum kind of guy, he is right now watching the World Cup in Moscow, watching his triumph kind of come together, and then he's going to go from one victory to the next, Trump, having kind of beaten NATO up all week, coming and meeting with him as equals, with no note takers, no advisers... |
And that already hands Putin a win. And because Putin is such a zero sum guy, handing him a win means it's our loss. There is no win-win scenario that -- that exists in Putin's mind. |
TAPPER: And, Masha, just moments ago, President Trump put out a series of tweets about the summit. |
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