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Dorothea Lange Wayfarers May 1937
"Mother and child of Arkansas flood refugee family near Memphis, Texas. These people, with all their earthly belongings, are bound for the lower Rio Grande Valley, where they hope to pick cotton"
Ilargi: It is nice for the United Arab Emirates’ central bank to say they stand behind the country's banks, but it's doubtful that the story ends there. Many if not most of the losses that are beseeching Dubai are there to stay. It’s about solvency, not liquidity, you might say. And who in Abu Dhabi (which is where the money will have to come from) is willing to throw their cash into a bottomless pit? Another aspect of the problems in what until recently was known as the "land of nothing but sand and flies", one that is easily overlooked, is that the "poor" folks who've bought property in "la-la land in the desert" have already seen the "value" of their purchases plunge by 50%. Even before the current trouble started. Think those prices will rebound anytime soon? That's many thousands of people who lost half a million, a million, that sort of money. Poof, gone. Forever.
We’ll see in the days to come how the markets react to both the debt and the Abu Dhabi "guarantees". The smarter investor will have felt an oops upside the head, scratched her/him self behind the ears a time or two and resolved to get the heebeejeesus out of there. Christmas will soon be here and the uncertainty just ain't worth the pain. Try to collect what bonus you can and lay low until at the earliest the new year. There's an avalanche of earnings numbers, losses and writedowns coming soon and they promise a very substantial risk of very substantial pain. Dubai is but an itch compared to that. Banks in the EU and the US need to raise hundreds of billions of dollars 2010, much more than Dubai could ever lose, while their governments need many trillions.
To see how things really stand, look no further than the other side of the poor folk spectrum, where the real people live. Today, one in four US children get at least part of their nutrition from food stamps. Food banks and pantries report a 30% increase in demand. And sure, there will always be a plethora of voices who proudly proclaim that only the lazy will ask for food for their children. None of these voices need to. Nor have they ever had to declare bankruptcy because of their medical bills, another one of America's few remaining proud growth industries.
Even if you "believe" in a recovery, don’t you think the people who presently hold the power would prepare for the unfortunate eventuality that maybe that recovery will not succeed? What do you think they would do to keep their hands on the wheel regardless? Bob Chapman thinks he knows what the next steps will be, and claims to have insider information to support his assertions. Cut commercial lending, abolish both the FDIC and the US dollar in a years' time, and leave no government guarantees in place other than bonds. Chapman is a bit strange perhaps, but he's also a lifelong broker and trader and not a complete fool. Chapman advises to get out of life insurance policies and annuities, since they are invested 80% in stocks and 20% in bonds. And I agree there. Your fund managers expect to turn profits in the stock markets? Supported by what? Yes, there's the herding instinct that's kept them in until now. But that same instinct can drive them out real fast too. As in any day now.
The flow of events and the reasoning behind it all is summed up once more by our perhaps soon-to-be contributor VK, who begs to differ with Chapman's conclusion that hyperinflation is the chosen path. As do we.
Easy credit money leads to speculative boom.
Excess overcapacity is built, asset prices soar, general feeling of goodwill and trust. People more willing to go into debt as future looks all rosy.
Cash flow problems occur, as credit growth far outstrips wage growth.
Minsky moment reached and the greatest fool is left holding the bag, asset prices plunge due to declining liquidity as borrowers refuse to borrow due to exorbitant costs of servicing the interest.
Banks reduce lending sharply as asset price decline leads to a balance sheet recession and lots and lots of losses. Further liquidity drained from the system.
Now Government steps in to fill in the gap caused by massive deleveraging. It's sole goal is to reflate, reflate, reflate.
If the gap between debt to income is sufficiently small, the Government can kick the can down the road but once it grows larger, they can no longer do so.
Wage price deflation takes hold as the economy simply can't handle the debt. Wages fall, asset prices fall, debt burden soars as money goes down the proverbial black hole, banks collapse as does government revenue and the cost of servicing debt soars. Unemployment shoots up thus removing any wage pressures.
The Government has two options at this point, one is to print its way out, thus destroying its currency and isolating itself from the broader international community or it can allow massive deflation to occur through which it is not isolated and the value of its currency rises. In both scenarios the middle class is F***ED but in the deflation scenario the elites are saved.
The elites would prefer an outcome whereby there is massive deflation; as Ilargi once mentioned, if you lose 50% of your net worth but asset prices fall 80%, you're up 30%! Buying back the country for cents on the dollar is a delicious outcome and lets the game be carried on for a little while longer.
Hyperinflation carries more risk then deflation for the elite. Both pose risks to social stability and the possible collapse of society but in a deflationary collapse the elite would have more of an advantage.
Farreaching Decision of the Federal Reserve: Banks which received TARP funds are to restrict commercial lending
by Bob Chapman
Bob Chapman reports that his source at the top of the banking industry has told him that 2000+ banks are in imminent danger of collapse, the FDIC will be closed or collapsed by Sep 2010 or year end and official devaluation will happen by the end of 2010. The source has been queried about making room for a new currency.
The following information may be the most important we have ever published. One of our Intel sources, highly placed in banking circles, tells us that on 1/1/10 all banks that have received TARP funds have been informed by the Federal Reserve that they must further restrict any commercial lending. Loans have to be 75% collateralized, 50% of which has to be in cash, which is a compensating balance.
The Fed has to do one of two things: They either have to pull $1.5 trillion out of the system by June, which would collapse the economy, or face hyperinflation. This is why the Fed has instructed banks to inform them when and how much of the TARP funds they can return. At best they can expect $300 to $400 billion plus the $200 billion the Fed already has in hand.
We believe the Fed will opt for letting the system run into hyperinflation. All signs tell us they cannot risk allowing the undertow of deflation to take over the economy. The system cannot stand such a withdrawal of funds. They also must depend on assistance from Congress in supplying a second stimulus plan. That would probably be $400 to $800 billion. A lack of such funding would send the economy and the stock market into a tailspin. Even with such funding the economy cannot expect any growth to speak of and at best a sideways movement for perhaps a year.
We have been told that the FDIC not only is $8.2 billion in the hole, but they have secretly borrowed an additional $80 billion from the Treasury. We have also been told that the FDIC is lying about the banks in trouble. The number in eminent danger are not 552, but a massive 2,035. The cost of bailing these banks out would be $800 billion to $1 trillion. That means 2,500 could be closed in 2010. Now get this, the FDIC is going to be collapsed before the end of 2010, which means no more deposit insurance. This follows the 9/18/09 end of government guarantees on money market funds. Both will force deposits into US government bonds and agency bonds in an attempt to save the system.
This will strip small and medium-sized banks and force them into shutting down or being absorbed. This means you have to get your money out of banks, especially CDs. We repeat get your cash values out of life insurance policies and annuities. They are invested 80% in stocks and 20% in bonds. Keep only enough money in banks for three months of operating expenses, six months for businesses. Major and semi-major banks are being told to obtain secure storage for new currency-dollars. They expect official devaluation by the end of the year.
We do not know what the exchange rate will be, but as we have stated previously we expect three old dollars to be traded for one new dollar. The alternative is gold and silver coins and shares. For those with substantial sums that do not want to be in gold and silver related assets completely you can use Canadian and Swiss Treasuries. If you need brokers for these investments we can supply them.
The Fed also expects a meltdown in the bond market, especially in municipals. Public services will be cut drastically leading to increased crime and social problems, not to mention the psychological trauma that our country will experience. Already 50% of homes in hard hit urban areas are under water, nationwide more than 25%. That means you have to be out of bonds as well, especially municipals.
Global sovereign debt to hit $49.5 trillion
Global sovereign debt is expected to hit $49.5 trillion by year end, a 45 percent climb since 2007 as the credit crisis takes a toll, Moody's Investors Service said on Tuesday. The expected $15.3 trillion increase in worldwide government debt is more than 100 times the inflation-adjusted cost of the Marshall plan, Moody's said in a report.
The Marshall Plan, a U.S. effort to rebuild Western Europe after World War II, cost an estimated $13 billion in unadjusted dollars. Sovereign debt ballooned during the global credit crisis as countries funded massive bailouts, shifting risk from corporate to government balance sheets. "Not surprisingly, the G7 countries account for 78 percent of the increase, as their fiscal accounts have been hit hardest by the crisis," Jaime Reusche, associate analyst in Moody's sovereign risk group, said in the report. The G7 or group of seven major industrial nations are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States.
Moody's said it expects global government debt to total 80 percent gross domestic product in 2010, up from a 10-year low of 63 percent in 2008. Debt will also be less affordable, as measured in terms of interest payments relative to revenue, Reusche said. For advanced industrial countries, interest payments are expected to total 6.1 percent of revenues in 2010, up from 4.3 percent in 2007. "As growth turns negative in 2009 for most countries, the relative debt load becomes harder to bear," Moody's said. In the United States, government debt is expected to rise to $14.48 trillion in 2010 from $12.29 trillion in 2009 and $10.27 trillion in 2008, the Moody's report said.
Big U.S banks will be forced to raise more capital soon
Most big U.S. banks may be forced to make public offerings soon if the Treasury demands payback of the funds it issued under the Troubled Assets Relief Program, veteran banking analyst Richard Bove said. The U.S. Federal Reserve this month asked banks that were part of its "stress tests" to submit plans to repay government money, if they have not already repaid it.
"Virtually all of the banks can easily redeem their TARP preferreds from current cash holdings. However, it may be that only 3 of the top 30 would have an adequate Tier 1 Capital ratio if they redeemed these preferreds," Bove said in a note to clients. The Rochdale Securities analyst said burgeoning fiscal deficit, which is expected to touch 9.5 percent this fiscal, and a plunging dollar are forcing the U.S. government to obtain money from wherever it can find it.
Repayment of the TARP funds would be one available source, Bove wrote. Many U.S. banks are eager to repay money borrowed under the government's $700 billion TARP. Participation in the program comes with limitations on pay, dividend payouts and share repurchases. It is believed that the Treasury was looking for Tier 1 Capital ratios of 12 percent at U.S. banks, and the banks would be forced to raise capital, without government assistance, before they are allowed to repay their TARP preferreds, Bove said.
"This raises the specter that a number of banks will be making public offerings soon despite the fact that their earnings remain under a cloud." The U.S. Treasury Department said on November 19 it would auction off stock warrants it received from three big banks that received taxpayers' funds from the government's financial rescue fund.
U.S. Treasury to Push Lenders to Finish More Home Modifications
The U.S. Treasury Department will step up public pressure on lenders to finish modifying more home loans to troubled borrowers under a $75 billion campaign against the record tide of foreclosures. More than 650,994 loan revisions had been started through the Obama administration’s Home Affordable Modification Program as of last month, from about 487,081 as of September, according to the Treasury. None of the trial modifications through October had been converted to permanent repayment plans, the Treasury data showed. That failure is getting the administration’s attention.
"We are taking additional steps to enhance servicer transparency and accountability as part of a broader focus on maximizing conversion rates to permanent modifications," Treasury spokeswoman Meg Reilly said in an e-mail yesterday. The Obama administration plans to announce additional steps tomorrow, including new private-public partnerships and resources for borrowers. The modification program was announced in February as a way to combat a surge in foreclosures that has pushed property values lower and curtailed economic growth. It hasn’t stopped foreclosures, which are now being driven by unemployment that was at a 26-year high of 10.2 percent in October.
The Mortgage Bankers Association, the industry’s largest trade group, predicts foreclosures won’t peak until after unemployment rates crest, some time in the second half of next year. The administration’s initiative provides a cash incentive of $1,000 to the mortgage servicer once a loan is converted from a trial to a permanent modification plus annual payments of $1,000 for as long as three years provided the loan remains in good standing.
Bank of America Corp. was among the worst performers in the program, with 14 percent of loans in modification in October, according to the Treasury. The bank, the largest in the U.S. and the biggest mortgage servicer, has 990,628 eligible loans, a greater total than any other company on the Treasury’s list. A spokesman for the Charlotte, North Carolina-based bank, Dan Frahm, has said the eligibility data may be overstated. "As many as one-in-three of those borrowers listed as eligible for the program will not actually qualify for HAMP because the home is vacant, the customer has a debt-to-income ratio below 31 percent or is unemployed," Frahm said in a Nov. 10 interview.
Eligible loans under the program are at least 60 days past due, in foreclosure or bankruptcy, and originated before 2009. The underlying property must be owner-occupied and conform to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loan limits, which can be as high as $729,750 in some areas. The data excludes Federal Housing Administration and Veterans Affairs loans. A borrower’s mortgage payment must be 31 percent or more of their gross monthly income to qualify.
Morgan Stanley, Citigroup Inc. and JPMorgan Chase & Co. led the pack of U.S. banks modifying home loans to troubled borrowers through October under the foreclosure prevention plan, the Treasury Department said. Citigroup, the third-largest U.S. bank by assets, began 88,968 trial modifications, or 40 percent of its eligible mortgages. JPMorgan, the second-largest U.S. bank, has started 133,988 modifications, or 32 percent of those eligible, the Treasury said.
Morgan Stanley’s Saxon Mortgage Services had begun trials for 44 percent of its 80,477 eligible loans. In all, 20 percent of eligible U.S. homeowners have received trial modifications through the government program, according to the data. Bank of America’s modifications started rose to 136,994 in October from 94,918 in September. The bank also accounted for 30.7 percent of the 3.2 million loans eligible for the program and about 22 percent of the 919,965 modification offers extended to borrowers by all the participating banks combined.
The administration program requires banks that received federal aid from the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, as well as mortgage-finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to lower monthly payments for borrowers at "imminent risk" of default. Banks can lengthen repayment terms, lower interest rates to as low as 2 percent and forbear outstanding principal, among other methods.
President Barack Obama announced the program in February, and final criteria for administering the modifications on loans owned by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage-finance companies seized by the government, were released in April.
Specific program guidelines for loans owned by other investors were provided in June and the Treasury later gave new details for loans backed by the Federal Housing Administration. The administration’s $75 billion Making Home Affordable program includes the mortgage modification initiative and loan refinancing through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Black Friday results: Minimal growth
All the hope and hype that went into Black Friday preparations this year didn't give us much. Year-over-year, retail sales grew only 0.5%, from $10.61 billion to $10.66 billion, according to ShopperTrak. This follows a 3% gain last year, when the world was gripped by the panic triggered by the global financial crisis. In 2007, the situation was much better, with Black Friday sales leaping 8.3%.
The slight gain this year came even with the extra efforts retailers made, which included, in some cases, opening on Thanksgiving Day and making an extra push via social media. These measures effectively helped retailers tread water. Worries about the momentum from Black Friday fading through the holiday season are even tougher, now that we know there isn't much momentum on which to rely. Shopper traffic was heavy this year, according to ShopperTrak, which led to much of the early optimism. But, the lookers weren't converting at the rates retailers had hoped.
The action came online this year, even ahead of Cyber Monday. Internet shopping increased 35%, with the average order reaching $170.19, according to online retail analytics company Coremetrics. Despite the difficult results last week, ShopperTrak is maintaining its holiday season growth estimate of 1.6%, with co-founder Bill Martin saying in a company statement that the forecast "remains intact."
Richest 1% of Britons hold 70% of wealth
I missed this report yesterday but it’s an interesting one. According to consultants AT Kearney, the richest 1pc in the UK hold some 70pc of the country’s wealth. That there is this divide between rich and poor is not exactly new – but the scale of it, and the likelihood that it is not being narrowed by the financial crisis, is a big worry. Indeed, according to the report, in the US the amount of financial assets owned by the richest 1pc in the US is far, far lower at 48pc, and only 34pc in Australia.
This must, to a large degree, be due to the fact that the UK set itself up in recent years as a haven for the super-rich, with its relatively generous rules on capital gains tax, because the income tax system itself is rather more redistributive than in the US. But the Kearney report is interesting because, unlike the traditional measure of inequality, the gini coefficient, it focuses not on income (the flow of money) but on actual substantive wealth (the stack of it that sits beneath us).
Says Penney Frohling, a partner at AT Kearney: "To understand the impact of the market crash, though, you need to look at wealth – not just how much people hold, but how it is held across different asset types. This is harder to do but drives quite different insights about how deeply and how widely the market crash and subsequent recovery have affected investors across age and wealth bands." "On an income basis, the UK and Australia have similar levels of equality according to the UN, with the US having proportionately more very high- and very low-earners. But in terms of the distribution of what people own rather than what they earn, the UK picture is more like an emerging market – though of course at a higher level."
In the latest UN report on the gini coefficient (in which a score of 0 means absolutely equal income across the population and 100 means one person has all the income), the UK scored 36.0, Australia 35.2, USA: 40.8. In part the poor score for the UK is due to its relatively ungenerous pension provision, compared with Australia where there is a compulsory pension savings scheme.
But what I find particularly intriguing (and this is something which won’t be clear for another year or more) is the question of whether this crisis has levelled out those inequality gaps. The Great Depression and its aftermath most certainly did, but despite the fact that the gini coefficient (certainly in the US, probably in the UK) are at levels comparable with the late 1920s and early 1930s, we haven’t yet seen any kind of dramatic social backlash as a result.
Food Stamp Use Soars, and Stigma Fades
With food stamp use at record highs and climbing every month, a program once scorned as a failed welfare scheme now helps feed one in eight Americans and one in four children. It has grown so rapidly in places so diverse that it is becoming nearly as ordinary as the groceries it buys. More than 36 million people use inconspicuous plastic cards for staples like milk, bread and cheese, swiping them at counters in blighted cities and in suburbs pocked with foreclosure signs.
Virtually all have incomes near or below the federal poverty line, but their eclectic ranks testify to the range of people struggling with basic needs. They include single mothers and married couples, the newly jobless and the chronically poor, longtime recipients of welfare checks and workers whose reduced hours or slender wages leave pantries bare.
While the numbers have soared during the recession, the path was cleared in better times when the Bush administration led a campaign to erase the program’s stigma, calling food stamps "nutritional aid" instead of welfare, and made it easier to apply. That bipartisan effort capped an extraordinary reversal from the 1990s, when some conservatives tried to abolish the program, Congress enacted large cuts and bureaucratic hurdles chased many needy people away.
From the ailing resorts of the Florida Keys to Alaskan villages along the Bering Sea, the program is now expanding at a pace of about 20,000 people a day. There are 239 counties in the United States where at least a quarter of the population receives food stamps, according to an analysis of local data collected by The New York Times. The counties are as big as the Bronx and Philadelphia and as small as Owsley County in Kentucky, a patch of Appalachian distress where half of the 4,600 residents receive food stamps.
In more than 750 counties, the program helps feed one in three blacks. In more than 800 counties, it helps feed one in three children. In the Mississippi River cities of St. Louis, Memphis and New Orleans, half of the children or more receive food stamps. Even in Peoria, Ill. — Everytown, U.S.A. — nearly 40 percent of children receive aid. While use is greatest where poverty runs deep, the growth has been especially swift in once-prosperous places hit by the housing bust.
There are about 50 small counties and a dozen sizable ones where the rolls have doubled in the last two years. In another 205 counties, they have risen by at least two-thirds. These places with soaring rolls include populous Riverside County, Calif., most of greater Phoenix and Las Vegas, a ring of affluent Atlanta suburbs, and a 150-mile stretch of southwest Florida from Bradenton to the Everglades. Although the program is growing at a record rate, the federal official who oversees it would like it to grow even faster. "I think the response of the program has been tremendous," said Kevin Concannon, an under secretary of agriculture, "but we’re mindful that there are another 15, 16 million who could benefit."
Nationwide, food stamps reach about two-thirds of those eligible, with rates ranging from an estimated 50 percent in California to 98 percent in Missouri. Mr. Concannon urged lagging states to do more to enroll the needy, citing a recent government report that found a sharp rise in Americans with inconsistent access to adequate food. "This is the most urgent time for our feeding programs in our lifetime, with the exception of the Depression," he said. "It’s time for us to face up to the fact that in this country of plenty, there are hungry people."
The program’s growing reach can be seen in a corner of southwestern Ohio where red state politics reign and blue-collar workers have often called food stamps a sign of laziness. But unemployment has soared, and food stamp use in a six-county area outside Cincinnati has risen more than 50 percent. With most of his co-workers laid off, Greg Dawson, a third-generation electrician in rural Martinsville, considers himself lucky to still have a job. He works the night shift for a contracting firm, installing freezer lights in a chain of grocery stores. But when his overtime income vanished and his expenses went up, Mr. Dawson started skimping on meals to feed his wife and five children.
He tried to fill up on cereal and eggs. He ate a lot of Spam. Then he went to work with a grumbling stomach to shine lights on food he could not afford. When an outreach worker appeared at his son’s Head Start program, Mr. Dawson gave in. "It’s embarrassing," said Mr. Dawson, 29, a taciturn man with a wispy goatee who is so uneasy about the monthly benefit of $300 that he has not told his parents. "I always thought it was people trying to milk the system. But we just felt like we really needed the help right now."
The outreach worker is a telltale sign. Like many states, Ohio has campaigned hard to raise the share of eligible people collecting benefits, which are financed entirely by the federal government and brought the state about $2.2 billion last year. By contrast, in the federal cash welfare program, states until recently bore the entire cost of caseload growth, and nationally the rolls have stayed virtually flat. Unemployment insurance, despite rapid growth, reaches about only half the jobless (and replaces about half their income), making food stamps the only aid many people can get — the safety net’s safety net.
Support for the food stamp program reached a nadir in the mid-1990s when critics, likening the benefit to cash welfare, won significant restrictions and sought even more. But after use plunged for several years, President Bill Clinton began promoting the program, in part as a way to help the working poor. President George W. Bush expanded that effort, a strategy Mr. Obama has embraced.
The revival was crowned last year with an upbeat change of name. What most people still call food stamps is technically the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP. By the time the recession began, in December 2007, "the whole message around this program had changed," said Stacy Dean of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a Washington group that has supported food stamp expansions. "The general pitch was, ‘This program is here to help you.’ " Now nearly 12 percent of Americans receive aid — 28 percent of blacks, 15 percent of Latinos and 8 percent of whites. Benefits average about $130 a month for each person in the household, but vary with shelter and child care costs.
In the promotion of the program, critics see a sleight of hand. "Some people like to camouflage this by calling it a nutrition program, but it’s really not different from cash welfare," said Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation, whose views have a following among conservatives on Capitol Hill. "Food stamps is quasi money." Arguing that aid discourages work and marriage, Mr. Rector said food stamps should contain work requirements as strict as those placed on cash assistance. "The food stamp program is a fossil that repeats all the errors of the war on poverty," he said.
Across the country, the food stamp rolls can be read like a scan of a sick economy. The counties of northwest Ohio, where car parts are made, take sick when Detroit falls ill. Food stamp use is up by about 60 percent in Erie County (vibration controls), 77 percent in Wood County (floor mats) and 84 percent in hard-hit Van Wert (shifting components and cooling fans). Just west, in Indiana, Elkhart County makes the majority of the nation’s recreational vehicles. Sales have fallen more than half during the recession, and nearly 30 percent of the county’s children are receiving food stamps.
The pox in southwest Florida is the housing bust, with foreclosure rates in Fort Myers often leading the nation in the last two years. Across six contiguous counties from Manatee to Monroe, the food stamp rolls have more than doubled. In sheer numbers, growth has come about equally from places where food stamp use was common and places where it was rare. Since 2007, the 600 counties with the highest percentage of people on the rolls added 1.3 million new recipients. So did the 600 counties where use was lowest.
The richest counties are often where aid is growing fastest, although from a small base. In 2007, Forsyth County, outside Atlanta, had the highest household income in the South. (One author dubbed it "Whitopia.") Food stamp use there has more than doubled. This is the first recession in which a majority of the poor in metropolitan areas live in the suburbs, giving food stamps new prominence there. Use has grown by half or more in dozens of suburban counties from Boston to Seattle, including such bulwarks of modern conservatism as California’s Orange County, where the rolls are up more than 50 percent.
While food stamp use is still the exception in places like Orange County (where 4 percent of the population get food aid), the program reaches deep in places of chronic poverty. It feeds half the people in stretches of white Appalachia, in a Yupik-speaking region of Alaska and on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. Across the 10 core counties of the Mississippi Delta, 45 percent of black residents receive aid. In a city as big as St. Louis, the share is 60 percent.
Use among children is especially high. A third of the children in Louisiana, Missouri and Tennessee receive food aid. In the Bronx, the rate is 46 percent. In East Carroll Parish, La., three-quarters of the children receive food stamps. A recent study by Mark R. Rank, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis, startled some policy makers in finding that half of Americans receive food stamps, at least briefly, by the time they turn 20. Among black children, the figure was 90 percent.
Across the small towns and rolling farmland outside Cincinnati, old disdain for the program has collided with new needs. Warren County, the second-richest in Ohio, is so averse to government aid that it turned down a federal stimulus grant. But the market for its high-end suburban homes has sagged, people who build them are idle and food stamp use has doubled. Next door, in Clinton County, the blow has been worse. DHL, the international package carrier, has closed most of its giant airfield, costing the county its biggest employer and about 7,500 jobs. The county unemployment rate nearly tripled, to more than 14 percent.
"We’re seeing people getting food stamps who never thought they’d get them," said Tina Osso, the director of the Shared Harvest Food Bank in Fairfield, which runs an outreach program in five area counties. While Mr. Dawson, the electrician, has kept his job, the drive to distant work sites has doubled his gas bill, food prices rose sharply last year and his health insurance premiums have soared. His monthly expenses have risen by about $400, and the elimination of overtime has cost him $200 a month. Food stamps help fill the gap.
Like many new beneficiaries here, Mr. Dawson argues that people often abuse the program and is quick to say he is different. While some people "choose not to get married, just so they can apply for benefits," he is a married, churchgoing man who works and owns his home. While "some people put piles of steaks in their carts," he will not use the government’s money for luxuries like coffee or soda. "To me, that’s just morally wrong," he said.
He has noticed crowds of midnight shoppers once a month when benefits get renewed. While policy analysts, spotting similar crowds nationwide, have called them a sign of increased hunger, he sees idleness. "Generally, if you’re up at that hour and not working, what are you into?" he said. Still, the program has filled the Dawsons’ home with fresh fruit, vegetables, bread and meat, and something they had not fully expected — an enormous sense of relief. "I know if I run out of milk, I could run down to the gas station," said Mr. Dawson’s wife, Sheila. As others here tell it, that is a benefit not to be overlooked.
Sarah and Tyrone Mangold started the year on track to make $70,000 — she was selling health insurance, and he was working on a heating and air conditioning crew. She got laid off in the spring, and he a few months later. Together they had one unemployment check and a blended family of three children, including one with a neurological disorder aggravated by poor nutrition.
They ate at his mother’s house twice a week. They pawned jewelry. She scoured the food pantry. He scrounged for side jobs. Their frustration peaked one night over a can of pinto beans. Each blamed the other when that was all they had to eat. "We were being really snippy, having anxiety attacks," Ms. Mangold said. "People get irritable when they’re hungry." Food stamps now fortify the family income by $623 a month, and Mr. Mangold, who is still patching together odd jobs, no longer objects. "I always thought people on public assistance were lazy," he said, "but it helps me know I can feed my kids."
So far, few elected officials have objected to the program’s growth. Almost 90 percent of beneficiaries nationwide live below the poverty line (about $22,000 a year for a family of four). But a minor tempest hit Ohio’s Warren County after a woman drove to the food stamp office in a Mercedes-Benz and word spread that she owned a $300,000 home loan-free. Since Ohio ignores the value of houses and cars, she qualified.
"I’m a hard-core conservative Republican guy — I found that appalling," said Dave Young, a member of the county board of commissioners, which briefly threatened to withdraw from the federal program. "As soon as people figure out they can vote representatives in to give them benefits, that’s the end of democracy," Mr. Young said. "More and more people will be taking, and fewer will be producing."
At the same time, the recession left Sandi Bernstein more sympathetic to the needy. After years of success in the insurance business, Ms. Bernstein, 66, had just settled into what she had expected to be a comfortable retirement when the financial crisis last year sent her brokerage accounts plummeting. Feeling newly vulnerable herself, she volunteered with an outreach program run by AARP and the Ohio Association of Second Harvest Food Banks.
Having assumed that poor people clamored for aid, she was surprised to find that some needed convincing to apply."I come here and I see people who are knowledgeable, normal, well-spoken, well-dressed," she said. "These are people I could be having lunch with." That could describe Franny and Shawn Wardlow, whose house in nearby Oregonia conjures middle-American stability rather than the struggle to meet basic needs. Their three daughters have heads of neat blond hair, pink bedroom curtains and a turtle bought in better times on vacation in Daytona Beach, Fla. One wrote a fourth-grade story about her parents that concluded "They lived happily ever after."
Ms. Wardlow, who worked at a nursing home, lost her job first. Soon after, Mr. Wardlow was laid off from the construction job he had held for nearly nine years. As Ms. Wardlow tells the story of the subsequent fall — cutoff threats from the power company, the dinners of egg noodles, the soap from the Salvation Army — she dwells on one unlikely symbol of the security she lost. Pot roast. "I was raised on eating pot roast," she said. "Just a nice decent meal."
Mr. Wardlow, 32, is a strapping man with a friendly air. He talked his way into a job at an envelope factory although his boss said he was overqualified. But it pays less than what he made muscling a jackhammer, and with Ms. Wardlow still jobless, they are two months behind on the rent. A monthly food stamp benefit of $429 fills the shelves and puts an occasional roast on the Sunday table. It reminds Ms. Wardlow of what she has lost, and what she hopes to regain. "I would consider us middle class at one time," she said. "I like to have a nice decent meal for dinner."
Food banks nationwide report more 1st timers
Prentice Jones worked construction jobs around Chicago for most of his 60 years and is quick to boast of a foreman job he once held at a revamped city college and 23 years at a steel company. But these days, work has been so scarce that the man with a penchant for cowboy hats has been forced to move in with his mother and do something this week he never expected — visit a food pantry. "There's no work now," Jones said while waiting in line at St. Columbanus Parish for a frozen turkey and bags of apples, bread and potatoes. "I pray it's temporary."
A surge in first time visitors has contributed to the greatest demand in years at food banks nationwide, according to Feeding America, a Chicago-based national food bank association. Many of the first timers were middle class but lost jobs or had their wages cut. "They were doing pretty well," said Ross Fraser of Feeding America. "They've completely had the rug pulled out from under them."
Federal agencies and national organizations have just started tracking first timers. But anecdotal evidence and statistics from individual pantries is clear: More and more new faces are appearing among the approximately 25 million Americans who rely on food pantries each year. St. Columbanus Pantry, which serves about 500 people a week on Chicago's South Side, has had up to 50 new people sign up each week since February. The Friendly Center in Orange, Calif., serves 80 families a day, with about 20 new people trying to qualify each day, far more than last year. And at the Community Kitchen and Food Pantry of West Harlem, N.Y., about 250 of the 1,000 people who show up each day — up from 750 this time last year — are newcomers.
"The line has grown so long that when you walk outside, it's overwhelming," said Jesse Taylor, senior director at the pantry. "A lot of people are coming out in suits, they're carrying brief cases." Food banks across the country report about a 30 percent increase in demand on average, but some have seen as much as a 150 percent jump in demand from 2008 through the middle of this year, according to Feeding America. Reliance on food banks and the number of Americans using food stamps — at least 35 million currently — are two indicators of hunger. The U.S. Department of Agriculture said earlier this month that 49 million people, or 14.6 percent of U.S. households, struggle to put food on the table, the most since the agency began tracking food security levels in 1995.
First timers to food banks have worries others might not experience. For starters, they may not know what to do. "Some don't have the coping skills, they've never been in this situation," said Elizabeth Donovan, a director at the Northern Illinois Food Bank, which serves 13 counties. "Asking for help is difficult." Jones was cajoled into coming into the food pantry by a friend who knew where to go, where to wait and how to apply for services. But others say the experience is fraught with shame, confusion or anger.
"We're hearing from more and more middle class who have never in their life gone to a food pantry," said Diane Doherty, an executive director at the Illinois Hunger Coalition. "They're very, very frustrated and angry." About half of the almost 40,000 families who have been fed at Holy Family Food Pantry in Waukegan, Ill., about 40 miles north of Chicago, are new, services director Barb Karacic said. They include Gail Small, a 55-year-old school bus driver who got laid off from her $16 an hour job at the Waukegan Public School District earlier in the year and hasn't been able to find work since.
"It was very embarrassing," Small said. "I didn't tell my children. I didn't tell my dad." Others say at some point, the need to survive trumps emotions. Linda Herrera, 59, went to All Saints Parish on Detroit's southwest side for the first time this week. Herrera, who is on state assistance, said the embarrassment of having to pick up food was offset by her empty cupboards. "We were down to practically nothing," she said, carrying out bags containing juice, mashed potatoes, dried milk, rice and beans. "I'm trying to just make it now 'til the end of the month, until I get my check."
From the Hospital to Bankruptcy Court
Some of the debtors sitting forlornly in this city’s old stone bankruptcy court have lost a job or gotten divorced. Others have been summoned to face their creditors because they spent mindlessly beyond their means. But all too often these days, they are there merely because they, or their children, got sick. Wes and Katie Covington, from Smyrna, Tenn., were already in debt from a round of fertility treatments when complications with her pregnancy and surgery on his knee left them with unmanageable bills. For Christine L. Phillips of Nashville, it was a $10,000 trip to the emergency room after a car wreck, on the heels of costly operations to remove a cyst and repair a damaged nerve.
Jodie and Charlie Mullins of Dickson, Tenn., were making ends meet on his patrolman’s salary until she developed debilitating back pain that required spinal surgery and forced her to quit nursing school. As with many medical bankruptcies, they had health insurance but their policy had a $3,000 deductible and, to their surprise, covered only 80 percent of their costs. "I always promised myself that if I ever got in trouble, I’d work two jobs to get out of it," said Mr. Mullins, a 16-year veteran of the Dickson police force. "But it gets to the point where two or three or four jobs wouldn’t take care of it. The bills just were out of sight."
Although statistics are elusive, there is a general sense among bankruptcy lawyers and court officials, in Nashville as elsewhere, that the share of personal bankruptcies caused by illness is growing. In the campaign to broaden support for the overhaul of American health care, few arguments have packed as much rhetorical punch as the there-but-for-the-grace-of-God notion that average families, through no fault of their own, are going bankrupt because of medical debt.
President Obama, in addressing a joint session of Congress in September, called on lawmakers to protect those "who live every day just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy." He added: "These are not primarily people on welfare. These are middle-class Americans." The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, made a similar case on Saturday in a floor speech calling for passage of a measure to open debate on his chamber’s health care bill. The legislation moving through Congress would attack the problem in numerous ways.
Bills in both houses would expand eligibility for Medicaid and provide health insurance subsidies for those making up to four times the federal poverty level. Insurers would be prohibited from denying coverage to those with pre-existing health conditions. Out-of-pocket medical costs would be capped annually. How many personal bankruptcies might be avoided is unpredictable, as it is not clear how often medical debt plays a back-breaking role. There were 1.1 million personal bankruptcy filings in 2008, including 12,500 in Nashville, and more are expected this year.
Last summer, Harvard researchers published a headline-grabbing paper that concluded that illness or medical bills contributed to 62 percent of bankruptcies in 2007, up from about half in 2001. More than three-fourths of those with medical debt had health insurance. But the researchers’ methodology has been criticized as defining medical bankruptcy too broadly and for the ideological leanings of its authors, some of whom are outspoken advocates for nationalized health care.
At the bankruptcy court in Nashville, lawyers provided a spectrum of estimates for the share of cases in Middle Tennessee where medical debt was decisive, from 15 percent to 50 percent. But many said they felt the number had been growing, and might be higher than was obvious because medical bills are often disguised as credit card debt. "This has really become the insurance system for the country," said Susan R. Limor, a bankruptcy trustee who calculated that 13 of the 48 Chapter 7 liquidation cases on her docket one recent afternoon included medical debts of more than $1,000.
Under Chapter 7, a debtor’s assets are liquidated and the proceeds are used to pay creditors; any remaining debts are discharged, and filers are left with a 10-year stain on their credit ratings. "You can’t believe how many people discharge medical debts," Ms. Limor said. "It’s a kind of trailing indicator of who’s suffering in this economy." Kyle D. Craddock, a bankruptcy lawyer here, said his medical cases were heartbreaking because the financial devastation was so rapid and ill-timed. "They’re sick, they’re bankrupt, and if they stay sick for too long, they end up losing their jobs as well," he said.
That was the case for Ms. Phillips, 45, who said she was fired in October from her job in a shipping department because she had missed so much work while recuperating from her car accident and operations. Her firing came only 11 days after she filed for bankruptcy, listing about $7,000 in unpaid medical bills among her $187,000 in liabilities. "The medical bills put me over the edge," said Ms. Phillips, who lost her health insurance along with her job. "I had no money for food at this point. How was I going to do it?"
It was the same for the Mullinses, who have two children. They had a mortgage and owed money on credit cards and student loans. "But the medical problem is what took us down," said Ms. Mullins, who is packing to move from the two-bedroom house they will soon surrender to Wells Fargo. "Everything was due, they wanted their money now, now, now, and it just became overwhelming."
For some, like Nathan W. Hale, 34, who had an attack of pancreatitis two months after losing his job with a Nashville cable company, it is the absence of insurance that pulls them under. Others, like Robin P. Herron, 35, of Eagleville, Tenn., have insurance, but it is not enough. Her Blue Cross Blue Shield policy covered only 80 percent of the cost when her daughter needed surgery to remove a cyst from a fallopian tube, leaving her $6,000 in debt. After cortisone injections failed to cure his gimpy knee, Mr. Covington, 31, had surgery because the pain was forcing him to miss days of work as an emergency medical technician. His recovery kept him off the job for five months.
Simultaneously, his wife, a 911 dispatcher, developed sciatica while pregnant and had to take months off on reduced disability pay. Their insurance policy, with an $850 monthly premium, has a $4,000 annual deductible per family. As the bills rolled in, the Covingtons compounded their troubles by placing medical charges on credit cards, simply to make the collection agencies stop calling. They fell months behind on their mortgage, and by August had lost their house and both cars. Mr. Covington, who has taken a second job, said he found it ironic that it had not been the recession that forced them into bankruptcy. "I tell my wife that we beat the economy," he said, "but health care beat us."
Taxpayers face a generation of pain
Fiscal stimulus was the economic tool, so long disparaged by the policymaking community, that came into its own during the economic crisis, playing its part alongside monetary easing and bank bail-outs in warding off a depression. But the result of fiscal stimulus in almost every Group of 20 economy has been the rise of deficits to levels never seen in peacetime, debt so high there is not the ammunition to fight another economic war and a bill to clean up the mess that will be felt by tax?payers for a generation to come. The latest estimates from the International Monetary Fund show that advanced countries’ deficits averaged 1.9 per cent of national income before the financial crisis started in 2007. This year they are expected to hit 9.7 per cent, followed by 8.7 per cent in 2010.
Public sector gross debt is expected to explode from an average across advanced economies of 78 per cent of national income in 2007 to 118 per cent in 2014. Emerging economies with their faster economic growth and greater constraints on borrowing expect much lower build-up of debt. The greatest effect on deficits and debt has come not from discretionary stimulus measures but lost tax revenues and increases in public expenditure as unemployment has risen. The problem for advanced economies is that plans for a great fiscal consolidation are needed at the same time as they are expected to cope with the retirement of the postwar "baby boomer" generation. Few are under any illusion that this will be a difficult task. Jørgen Elmeskov, acting chief economist of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, argues that "stopping the rot is clearly necessary and will call for fiscal consolidation that is substantial in most cases and drastic in some".
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, managing director of the International Monetary Fund, said this week that fiscal consolidation should be the "top priority" for the medium term in advanced economies once recovery was firmly established, because "the threats are greater, the politics are more complicated and the machinery of adjustment is more unwieldy". The IMF chief was speaking in London, which was apt as the UK has potentially one of the most difficult feats of fiscal consolidation to perform. Its tax revenues were heavily dependent on financial sector profits; public spending had been set to rise rapidly until 2011; and the country has very strong automatic stabilisers and an extensive means-tested system of state support, which automatically kicks in as people become unemployed.
The UK’s budget deficit is projected to rise from 2.6 per cent of national income in 2007 to 13.2 per cent in 2010, according to the IMF. Gross debt is forecast to more than double from an internationally low 44 per cent of national income to 98 per cent in 2014. The UK has records on government borrowing and debt stretching back to 1691. The expected 50 percentage point rise in the debt-to-national-income ratio is similar in proportion to that experienced during the many wars Britain fought in the 18th century and is the biggest peacetime explosion of government liabilities. In cash terms, the government expects to borrow more in 2009 and 2010 than the entire borrowing of centuries of British governments between 1692 and 1997. The pressure mounted this week when Mervyn King, the Bank of England governor, reiterated his view that official plans to reduce the deficit by half over the next four years were insufficient and not credible.
Instead, he called for "something where a really significant reduction in deficits to eliminate a large part of the structural deficit should take place over the lifetime of a parliament". Plans for deficit reduction are central to the domestic political debate, but neither main UK party has come close to providing a detailed programme for public expenditure curbs of the scale needed to cut the deficit and control debt. The scale of the cuts is, however, already clear. Under the government’s existing Budget, it is planning to halve the annual level of capital expenditure between 2009-10 and 2013-14. Road, hospital and school building will bear the brunt. Day-to-day expenditure will also be hit hard.
Over the three years from April 2011 government departments will face cuts of 1.9 per cent a year in real terms, compared with the annual rises of more than 4 per cent they were used to in the previous decade. "This would be the tightest squeeze in spending on public services since the UK was negotiating its spending plans with the IMF in the late 1970s," says Robert Chote, director of the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies. The main difference between the parties is that Labour believes that doing too much deficit reduction too soon might threaten the anaemic recovery, while the Conservatives claim that doing too little might lead to higher borrowing costs. But the big issue confronting Britain and governments in all advanced economies is that the current level of public borrowing is too high but few know when to start consolidation, or how fast it should be. Whatever happens, people in Britain will have to get used to paying much more for their public services and receiving much less.
Professor advises underwater homeowners to walk away from mortgages
Go ahead. Break the chains. Stop paying on your mortgage if you owe more than the house is worth. And most important: Don't feel guilty about it. Don't think you're doing something morally wrong. That's the incendiary core message of a new academic paper by Brent T. White, a University of Arizona law school professor, titled "Underwater and Not Walking Away: Shame, Fear and the Social Management of the Housing Crisis."
White contends that far more of the estimated 15 million U.S. homeowners who are underwater on their mortgages should stiff their lenders and take a hike. Doing so, he suggests, could save some of them hundreds of thousands of dollars that they "have no reasonable prospect of recouping" in the years ahead. Plus the penalties are nowhere near as painful or long-lasting as they might assume, he says. "Homeowners should be walking away in droves," White said. "But they aren't. And it's not because the financial costs of foreclosure outweigh the benefits."
Sure, credit scores get whacked when you walk away, he acknowledges. But as long as you stay current with other creditors, "one can have a good credit rating again -- meaning above 660 -- within two years after a foreclosure." Better yet, homeowners can default "strategically": Buy all the major items they'll need for the next couple of years -- a new car, even a new house -- just before they pull the plug on their current mortgage lender. "Most individuals should be able to plan in advance for a few years of limited credit," White said, with minimal disruptions to their lifestyles.
What kind of law school professorial advice is this? Aren't mortgages legal contracts? In so-called anti-deficiency states such as California and Arizona, mortgage lenders have limited or no legal rights to pursue defaulting homeowners' assets beyond the house itself, White said. In other states, lenders may decide that it is not worth the legal expense to pursue walkaways, or consumers may be able to find flaws in the mortgage documents, disclosures or underwriting to challenge the original contract.
The main point, he said, is that too often people's emotions get in the way of clear financial thinking about mortgages, turning them into what he calls "woodheads" -- "individuals who choose not to act in their own self-interest." Most owners are too worried about feelings of shame and embarrassment after a foreclosure, and ignore the powerful financial reasons for doing so. Buttressing these emotions is a system that White labels "the social control of the housing crisis" -- pressures and messages continually sent to consumers by the "social control agents," namely banks, government and the media. The mantra that these agents -- all the way up to President Obama -- pound into owners' heads, White said, is that "voluntarily defaulting on a mortgage is immoral."
Yet there is an inherent imbalance in the borrower-lender relationship that makes this morality message unfair to consumers, White says: Banks set the rules during the housing boom, handing out home loans with no down payments, no income checks and inflated appraisals. Now that property values have dropped 20% to 50% in many areas, banks have been slow to modify troubled mortgages and reluctant to reduce principal debts. Only when homeowners cut through the emotional fog and default strategically in large numbers, White argues, will this inequitable situation be seriously addressed.
How does White's 52-page manifesto go over with mortgage lenders? Predictably, not well. Officials at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- investors who fund the bulk of all new mortgages in the country -- disputed White's characterization of how quickly after foreclosure a walkaway borrower can obtain a new loan. It's not three years, they said, it's a minimum of five years, absent extenuating circumstances such as medical or employment problems that caused the foreclosure.
"Borrowers who walk away from their mortgage obligations face serious consequences," including severely depressed credit scores for extended periods, said Brian Faith of Fannie Mae. In addition, he said, "there's a moral dimension to this as homeowners who simply abandon their homes contribute to the destabilization of their neighborhood and community."
A Faith-Based Recovery
by Joel Bowman
Today we have something extraordinary for you to ponder. We call it, in the prescribed, politico-doublespeak of the times, a "recovery." Allow us to elaborate for just a moment…
A "recovery," as defined by the same economic talent that led us into mass speculative temptation in the first place, is a magical reversal of fortunes for the global economy.
What is this recovery based on? Glad you asked, because here comes the extraordinary part…it is underpinned by the hysterical, back-slapping delusion that comes from accepting that there is, in fact, a recovery. It is real, in other words, because we are told it is real.
Convinced yet?
As the late astronomer, Carl Sagan, was fond of saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In the absence of such evidence, let us examine the faith-based foundation on which the stability of the world’s largest economy now rests.
Below are a few tenets all sworn Recoverites must accept, any and all evidence to the contrary be damned:
1. That a consumer economy can continue to grow exponentially, even as the consumers themselves are forced to economize…
Where once manufacturing, innovation and a solid savings base held sturdy the US economy, there is now consumption, a waning service industry and a fiscally constipating accumulation of debt.
With household liabilities as a percentage of disposable income running at almost 130% for the average American family, and official unemployment bubbling over a 26-year peak of 10.2%, it’s tough going at the mall…even for the mighty US consumer…and even after the government has bribed him to go out and spend!
Already GDP estimates for the September quarter were revised downward – from 3.5% to 2.8% – after it became clear that the effects of the Cash for Clunkers program – the governmental equivalent of economic Viagra – had worn off sooner than expected. Barely had the poor consumer got his pants off and his wallet out when his many embarrassing deficits became all too apparent.
2. That the notices of liability printed by the Feds – commonly referred to as "greenbacks" – will enjoy the infinite confidence and unyielding patience of the nation’s foreign creditors…
For the past year we have heard rumblings from the BRIC nations, in particular China, over the government-sponsored debasement of the greenback. Most recently, Liu Mingkang, the Middle Kingdom’s chief banking regulator, argued that the combination of a weak dollar with persistently low interest rates had encouraged a "huge carry trade" that was having a "massive impact on global asset prices."
It is no secret that "dollar alternatives" are openly discussed among large holders of US paper. So shaky is the dollar, in fact, that even a (briskly discredited) rumor in an English paper about OPEC nations ditching the buck sent the world’s "reserve" currency into a tailspin, tipping off gold’s current trailblazing rise – itself another indicator of fear and loathing of the once almighty buck.
(As we were jotting these few words, midweek, the greenback had just fallen below one Swiss franc for only the second time ever, reaching a 15-month low on the dollar index and approaching a 14-year low against the yen.)
3. That those creditors will continue to reinvest said monies back into the increasingly regulated and overtaxed US securities exchanges…
And that’s to say nothing of the growing minority of American citizens and companies already, wisely, looking for ways to flee their own shores with the hope of doing business in more accommodating, less intrusive arenas.
4. That extorting money from current and future workers in order to allocate it to the nation’s least efficient industries is a positive long-term strategy…
Over the past year, the government of the United States of America has pumped more money into its flailing economy than the total value of all the gold ever mined in world history…doubled.
Before we go on, let us remember that each and every one of those dollars – and the trillions more splashed around by the do-gooder interventionalists of the world – are dollars that are NOT now available to private citizens or the thousands of small businesses that might have benefited from a little extra cash during this whole crisis.
The true opportunity cost of this gross misallocation of vital resources will, of course, never be known. What is known, however, is that said bailouts helped the federal budget deficit along to a post WWII record of more than $1.4 trillion in fiscal 2009. Treasury officials warn the national debt limit of $12.1 trillion may be reached and breached by as early as December.
5. That those still purchasing stocks are better informed than the industries’ insiders…
Insider selling increased during the latest week from $960 million in sales to over $1.39 billion. That compares with "buys" totaling just $160 million. The ratio of selling to buying has, at times during this stock market rally, stretched to as much as 31:1.
Is there something outsiders know that insiders don’t? Unlikely.
6. And, that the geniuses who missed the warning signs of the biggest bust up in modern financial history are the most qualified to guide us out of it…
Even up until the very eve of the crisis, elected and unelected politicians assured those who knew better that the vast and plentiful risks to the financial industry were contained. Clearly, they were not. At every juncture since then, those leaders and others have sought to impose the very measures – currency debasement, deficit spending, increased state intervention, bailouts, nationalizations etc. – that history tells us lead to outright ruin.
Sir Isaac Newton – himself a man of faith…and a devout student of alchemy – once wrote, "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."
What is perhaps the most galling of this entire financial debacle is that, with the abundance of insightful economists history has granted us, today’s leaders should appear proud to be seen standing on the shoulders of earthworms.
Get Ready for Half a Recovery
A robust economic recovery in 2010 is certainly on most investors’ wish lists as this year draws to a close. A return to prosperity would not only mean an end to our long financial nightmare, but it would also buttress a rebounding stock market, one of 2009’s few bright spots.
The news out of Dubai late last week, however — that its investment company is struggling to meet repayments on some of its $59 billion in debt — reminds us that we are far from finished with a ferocious deleveraging process that began last year. And the weight of debt that still must be worked out is one reason that Ian Shepherdson, chief United States economist at High Frequency Economics, estimates that growth in the United States’ output for 2010 will be no better than 2 percent.
Mr. Shepherdson — whose economic forecasts have been more right than wrong throughout the credit crisis — says that while cost-cutting has produced enviable productivity figures and rising earnings at large companies, continued growth in corporate output will be much harder to come by. “Looking further ahead, you can’t survive on cost-cutting forever,” he says. “We will have to see decent volume growth but we won’t see that immediately.”
Mr. Shepherdson’s 2 percent estimate for gross domestic product growth next year is roughly half what he would normally expect for a solid economic recovery. And a crucial reason is the fact that bad assets on personal and institutional balance sheets are the equivalent of a ball and chain strapped to the economy, he says. “You can pick up that ball and walk with it,” he says, “but you have to walk slowly.”
All that debt overhanging consumers and organizations is the pivotal reason we are still seeing a free fall in bank lending. And small businesses, which account for half of all jobs in this country, are taking the brunt of this credit contraction. Smaller banks are especially worried about their own balance sheets and aren’t making loans. This puts small businesses — important engines of growth — squarely on the brink.
Investors may be celebrating data that points to improvements in economic activity — this month, for example, the Institute for Supply Management said manufacturing had expanded for three months in a row. But Mr. Shepherdson worries about what he sees in monthly figures put out by the National Federation of Independent Business, a trade group representing small businesses. The N.F.I.B. data was far more prescient than that of the I.S.M. in predicting the current recession, which began in December 2007, Mr. Shepherdson says. The N.F.I.B. survey signaled a downturn in the spring of 2007, while I.S.M. studies didn’t point to a recession until after Lehman Brothers failed in September 2008.
In its survey, the N.F.I.B. asks small businesses how easy it is for them to get loans. The most recent data shows that credit tightness peaked earlier this fall — the worst levels in 23 years, Mr. Shepherdson says. Although credit continues to remain troublingly hard for small business to come by, that phenomenon is a largely untold story. “Wall Street focuses on big companies because they are in the Standard & Poor’s 500, but small businesses are still in a very grim state,” he says. “Small-company activity according to the N.F.I.B. is still at deep recession levels.”
And while small businesses do not make up the big stock indexes, they do contribute significantly to the overall economy. The tens of millions of people who work at small concerns are, after all, customers of those big, high-profile corporations like McDonald’s, Wal-Mart and Whirlpool. What we all are enduring — and what small businesses, workers and consumers continue to be pummeled by, even as Wall Street wizards jump back into the bonus pool — is the dismantling of the great credit boom of the early 2000s. This necessary but grueling deleveraging began last year and is now in full swing. But it is nowhere near over.
Bank credit outstanding peaked in October 2008 at $7.3 trillion and is now down to $6.72 trillion. Still, Mr. Shepherdson says he thinks that banking-sector loan and lease assets have to fall by an additional $2 trillion. That could take another two years. “We are in unknown territory here,” he said. “Since the peak in October ’08, bank credit has dropped by 8 percent. That is enormous and it is accelerating. The peak-to-trough drop in the early ’90s was just 1.3 percent and that was enough to scare the pants off the Fed.”
This credit cave-in is the driving force behind the Federal Reserve’s mortgage purchase program, Mr. Shepherdson says. The last thing the central bank wants to see is a decline in the broad-based money supply, because when that happens it usually means a depression is afoot. Money supply didn’t fall in the early 1990s, but it fell by one-quarter during the 1930s. The Fed’s asset purchase program is therefore not about driving down mortgage rates, Mr. Shepherdson says, but about trying to prevent a collapse in the money supply. When the Fed buys assets it creates deposits, which, in turn, helps offset the credit pullback. If the Fed wasn’t buying mortgages with both hands, Mr. Shepherdson estimates, the money supply would be falling 1 percent a month.
The message amid this gloom, he says, is that the Fed isn’t likely to raise interest rates anytime soon. In fact, he doesn’t anticipate an increase in rates until the spring of 2011. “I would be astonished if they raised rates in the heart of the credit contraction storm,” Mr. Shepherdson says. “The credit contraction will last for a couple of years and if the Fed is interested in offsetting it, they will have to buy assets through next year.” Deflating an asset bubble is never fun, and this particular specimen is one for the record books. The binge may have been a blast, but the purge, alas, sure is painful.
by Bill Bonner
Governments benefit from 'teaser' rates. Wait 'til they come to an end...
There are so many breathtaking things going on around us we practically suffocate. Last week, three-month US Treasury-bills yielded all of 0.015% interest. Some yields were below zero. In effect, investors gave the government money. The government thanked them and promised to give them back less money three months later. How do you explain this strange transaction? Was there a full moon?
Moonlight on the week of November 6 must have been especially intense. Bids totaled a record $361 billion for just $86 billion worth of T- bills. This was $100 billion more than the peak set during the credit crisis a year ago. What? A third of a trillion dollars, per week, gives itself up to the hard labor of government service and asks for nothing in return?
Even lending to the government for much longer period yields little to the investor. The 10-year yield is only 3.32%. Thirty-year lenders get only 100 basis points more. And this in a currency that is melting faster than polar ice. Gold, the traditional bank reserve, is soaring in comparison. Not surprising; the US dollar money supply - measured by the US monetary base - rose 147% over the past 24 months.
The only thing rising faster than the demand for government debt is the supply of it. All major governments of the West - and Japan - are now borrowing as if their lives depended on it. The IMF predicts that Britain's ratio of public debt to GDP will rise 50% between 2007 and 2014. In America, the increase is forecast to take taxpayers nearly to the debt levels of WWII. Those estimates are probably far too low, since they depend on an economic 'recovery' that will almost certainly prove to be a disappointment. The purpose of a depression is to get rid of bad debts and correct bad investment decisions. But an economy cannot correct itself unless it is allowed to enter a correction. When you try to prevent it, you get a zombie economy in constant need of freshly borrowed blood. Debts rise, but with no recovery. As reported on this back page, former US Office of Management and Budget director David Stockman expects a zombie economy in the US, with deficits twice as great as those now projected...that is, of $2 trillion per year, not $1 trillion. This will send US debt beyond WWII levels...up to Japan- like heights.
Other governments, too, are likely to see similar swelling in their public debt limbs. All right-thinking economists and commentators have come to the same conclusion - that fiscal and monetary stimulus must continue until the 'recovery' is more manifest. Worse, they've been trapped by the logic of Keynesianism itself. Now, everything is 'stimulus.' Nothing can be cut. The boils cannot be lanced.
When you come to the end of a war, spending is naturally reduced.
Deficits can go home with the troops. Debts can be paid down. But there is no end in sight for these deficits. Because only a small part of them is the direct consequence of the war against depression. Instead, they are merely the inevitable result of governments that spend too much money. In the US this "structural deficit" is estimated by the IMF at 3.7% of GDP. In Japan and Britain it is twice that amount.
Whatever else can be said of it, this freak show cannot go on forever. The US has $2 trillion worth of short-term bills that must be refinanced in the next 12 months. It must also refinance about $1 trillion more of notes and bonds. That's without adding any additional debt! So put a deficit of $1.5 trillion on top of that and you have $4.5 trillion of financing for the US alone.
But the US is not the only one fishing in this pond. Japan's national debt already measures 200% of its GDP and is increasing rapidly. So far, Japan's deficits have been financed internally. The Japanese saved 20% of their household incomes in 1980. But the Japanese are aging. When they retire, people cease saving and begin drawing on savings to cover living expenses. At the current pace, the household savings rate should fall to zero in 5 years. Then, who will buy Japan's bonds? Who will cover Japan's deficits? The same people who are supposed to cover America's deficits?
Taken all together, the world's governments will need $1 trillion per month, in financing, over the next 12 months, according to an estimate in the Financial Times. Who has that kind of money? Total US savings are only $700 billion. Even the Chinese, if they put their entire cash pile to it, could only fund the deficits for about 67 days' worth. Warren Buffett? Less than 48 hours.
There is also the problem of paying the interest on rising debt loads. Thanks to the forgetfulness or credulity of the world's lenders, borrowers now benefit from exceptionally low rates - just like the 'teaser' rates once accorded to sub-prime lenders. But the tease will come to an end soon. Even the Obama Administration forecasts interest payments to rise from $200 billion at present to $700 billion by 2019. This assumes interest rates only regress to 'normal.' But "hot money" from the feds has acted like spent nuclear fuel; every fish in the financial pond now seems to have two heads and a bag over both of them. The freaks of November 2009 may be replaced by things perhaps no less strange, but in a different way. The last time gold was over $800 lenders to the US government demanded yields in excess of 18% in order to part with their money. That was odd too. But it had very different consequences for investors.
Arab Emirates Move to Limit Crisis in Dubai
Trying to prevent a run on its banks and possible financial turmoil, the United Arab Emirates said on Sunday that it would lend money to banks operating in Dubai amid concerns about excessive borrowing around the world. The move by the group’s central bank was an attempt to head off the kind of crisis of confidence that froze credit markets last year and brought the global economy to the brink of failure, threatening everyone from hedge fund billionaires to retirees who had their savings in supposedly safe investments.
Central bankers and government officials around the world will watch for signs that fears are spreading or are being contained as markets open in Europe and New York. They are looking to see whether investors begin taking money not just from companies and banks connected to Dubai, but also from other countries that may have taken on more debt than they can afford to repay. Asian markets in their first hours were up more than 2 percent on Monday morning.
Last week, investors fled the stocks of banks with outstanding loans to the tiny emirate and its investment arm, Dubai World. Now, analysts will be watching to see whether investors desert other highly indebted companies. While Dubai is not big enough to set off financial repercussions outside the Middle East, the main fear is that investors could flee risky markets all at once in search of safer havens for their money. As in September 2008, when the failure of Lehman Brothers heightened worries about all financial institutions, they might pull back, regardless of the markets’ strength.
Those fears were allayed only after the United States announced a huge bank bailout and began guaranteeing a variety of borrowing that slowly helped credit markets begin functioning again. That many of these measures remain in place could help contain any problems from Dubai now. But while the federation is following a similar strategy, albeit on a smaller scale, analysts expressed concern that the promise of added funds to support Dubai banks might not be enough to keep anxiety from jumping to other countries and institutions.
Indeed, an analysis from Goldman Sachs on Sunday said that the failure of federation authorities to provide a blanket guarantee for all of Dubai’s debt showed that governments worldwide were less willing to bail out overextended companies and their investors. “This episode represents a timely reminder that emergency public funding support should not be taken for granted,” wrote Francesco Garzarelli, an analyst based in London for Goldman. The extent to which the federation and its wealthiest member-state, Abu Dhabi, which has vast oil reserves, appear to guarantee Dubai’s debts could affect how investors view many other companies previously believed to have the implicit backing of their governments.
“There are plenty of people around in world capitals who are tired of bailouts,” said Simon Johnson, a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund. As a result, banks that made big loans to some heavily indebted governments and companies might start to incur more losses. The shares of HSBC and Standard Chartered, which lent heavily to Dubai, have fallen sharply in the last week, and Mr. Johnson said that the cost of insuring against defaults by big Irish banks has surged since the Dubai announcement. A fear of contagion from Dubai would further destabilize European banks that were only starting to mend.
The Dubai crisis began last week, when the emirate said Dubai World would not be able to make on-time payments for some of its $59 billion in debt. The company invested in lavish real estate projects, including artificial islands in the shape of a palm tree and a globe, and spent heavily to acquire stakes in glittering properties like Barneys in New York and the MGM Mirage in Las Vegas. Dubai was far from alone in taking on too much debt as companies and countries around the world did the same. Investors have already been alarmed by problems in countries in Eastern Europe, in Ireland and in Greece.
Dubai’s problems are also a reminder of the lasting effects of the global real estate bubble, which remains a danger in the United States, where several big banks are encumbered by souring commercial real estate loans. There is a concern that governments have responded to the financial crisis by taking on unsustainable levels of debt that they may no longer be able to finance. Even in the United States, public debt is forecast to rise to around 80 percent, from about 40 percent, of gross domestic product, the economist Nouriel Roubini said.
“Dubai could be the beginning of a series of sovereign debt issues or crises,” said Mohamed A. El-Erian, chief executive of Pimco, the giant bond-trading firm. “What Dubai is going to do is make people think more intensely about the lagging implications of last year’s crisis. It’s going to be a wake-up call to the people who thought that the financial crisis was just a flesh wound.” Many analysts expect federation authorities to release further details as soon as Monday on how they plan to restructure the debt of Dubai and Dubai World to keep markets calm.
Analysts will be watching crucial indicators of stability or alarm. The most apparent will be if money is pulled from other investments to the safe havens. Analysts will be monitoring the amount of interest that investors demand to lend money to emerging market countries. It has already risen sharply since the Dubai crisis erupted on Wednesday. A major worry, investors say, is that the global debt crisis in private debt could metastasize into a debt crisis for governments that are running mounting deficits to pay for bailouts and stimulus packages — especially in Eastern Europe but also in Britain.
In fact, a warning sign has already started flashing: the cost of insuring debt issued by Greece, a member of the euro bloc, is now as much as insuring Turkey’s debt, an investment that was once considered much riskier. One consequence of the global financial crisis is that Greece has been forced to take on shorter-term external debt. Debt securities due within a year have risen to $24 billion in the second quarter of 2009, from $14.5 billion at the end of 2007, according to figures from international economists.
Many countries may face tests in the weeks and months to come as they try to roll over their existing debts. These countries will not be able to raise money easily or cheaply. This could put pressure on stronger members of the European Union to bail out weaker members, or at least help them restructure their debts and nurse them back to health. So strung out was Latvia this year that the country barely recovered from a speculative attack on its currency, the lat, though it is a member of the European Union. As it teetered, economists fretted about a coming “lat bath,” like the Thai “baht bath” devaluation that set off the 1997 Asian crisis.
The International Monetary Fund, World Bank and European Union stepped in to prop up the weakest countries, however, and fears of true sovereign defaults in Europe’s most vulnerable countries receded before last week’s turmoil. These institutions’ guarantees, however, do not extend to state-backed companies. Hungary, Bulgaria and the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia carry foreign debt that exceeds 100 percent of their gross domestic products, Ivan Tchakarov, chief economist for Russia and the former Soviet states at Nomura bank, said in a telephone interview from London.
But the problems, if any, are likely to be limited to Europe. The tremors would not immediately spread to the United States, beyond the effects of the strengthening of the dollar, and potentially a weakening of commodity prices as investors bet on a slowdown in emerging markets. However, in the long run, a global credit crisis set off by Dubai would make the cost of financing the trillions of dollars in American debt much more expensive, Mr. Roubini said. “Even the U.S. — over time — cannot run forever unsustainable fiscal deficit,” he said. “The total financing needs of the U.S. will range in the $1.5 trillion to $1.7 trillion a year for the next decade,” he said. “That is a huge amount of public debt to issue and or roll over.”
West fears fire sale of Dubai assets that will spread across world
When an Arabian consortium bought the Peninsular & Oriental (P&O) ports company three years ago, American politicians went into uproar over the perceived terrorist threat. It emerged this week, however, that the bombshell the world should have been worried about was the debt that the group was taking on to fund its growth.
The Government of Dubai said on Wednesday that it was seeking a standstill on debt repayments for Dubai World, the vast conglomerate that bought P&O (minus the American ports) for £3.9 billion in 2006. Dubai World has liabilities of $60 billion (£36 billion) and the standstill announcement, made just before most of the Arab world stopped work for the Eid religious festival, has stunned stock and credit markets. The standstill raises the possibility that Dubai World could default on its debt.
The fear in Western markets is that banks risk losing billions, causing more paralysis in the lending markets. Dubai World’s difficulties also raise the prospect that it may be forced into a fire sale of its assets, which include some famous names in the UK. Leisurecorp, one of the many subdivisions within Dubai World, bought Turnberry, the golf course that hosted this year’s Open Championship, for £55 million last year. It also owns the Chris Evert tennis centres and more than 200 golf courses across the US — all assets that could be sold quickly to help to repay debt back home.
Dubai World’s Istithmar investment fund has $3.5 billion in businesses as diverse as Irish textbook publishers and aerospace companies. Last year Istithmar also bought a 20 per cent stake in Cirque du Soleil and the Canadian circus performers have since established a permanent base in Dubai. In the less glamorous world of ports, DP World became the third-largest operator globally after its acquisition of P&O. It owns Dubai’s Jebel Ali port and various other container terminals around the world.
In Britain DP World operates container terminals at Tilbury, near London, and Southampton, and is building a port called London Gateway. Many of the goods that are imported into Europe are, therefore, transferred through ports owned or operated by Dubai — the source of US concern when the P&O deal was struck. The Arabian group bowed to pressure after buying P&O and sold the American ports to another company. Dubai World yesterday ring-fenced DP World from the rest of the company’s debts. This was seen as an attempt to protect the profitable ports division from potential creditors.
It is Nakheel, Dubai World’s property developer, that has been causing the difficulties. The company, which built the Palm Islands in the Gulf, was due to repay a $4 billion Islamic bond on December 14. Most investors had assumed that there would be no difficulty doing so as Dubai World, the Government of Dubai and Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Dubai’s billionaire ruler, were assumed to be supporting the developer. It now appears that nobody has the money to repay or refinance the bond and so the other $56 billion of Dubai World’s liabilities are also at risk.
This triggered a run on international bank stocks as investors worried about their exposure to Dubai World, which accounts for nearly three quarters of Dubai’s state debt. Falling share prices wiped £14 billion off the UK banking sector alone. Credit Suisse has estimated that European banks could have €40 billion (£36 billion) in loans to Dubai and much of this could be at risk if the Gulf emirate defaults. Banks including HSBC and Royal Bank of Scotland have helped to finance Dubai’s acquisitions and are now on the hook if the state cannot repay its debts.
Dubai enjoyed a bubble that made the boom years in the UK seem like postwar rationing. But the boom was built on debt and when credit markets tightened and the emirate’s growth slowed the property bubble burst. Prices have fallen by up to 60 per cent and more than 400 construction projects worth more than $300 billion have been shut down or postponed. Many expatriates facing negative equity and ballooning credit card bills have skipped the country rather than face debtors’ prison and Dubai’s reputation has taken a battering. If Dubai is forced to raise money to meet its debt repayments, the impact will be felt far wider than Cirque du Soleil and Turnberry golf course.
In recent years, the various investment companies owned by Sheikh Mohammed and the Government of Dubai have been buying up numerous Western assets. Dubai International Capital, the $12 billion sovereign wealth fund, bought Travelodge, the budget hotel chain. It also has a 16 per cent stake in Merlin Entertainments, which owns the London Eye, Madame Tussauds, Legoland and Thorpe Park. Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al-Maktoum, of Dubai’s Supreme Fiscal Committee, said that the Government acted in full knowledge of how the markets would react and that further information would be given next week.
U.A.E. Central Bank Stands Behind Lenders, Adds Funds
The United Arab Emirates’ central bank said it "stands behind" the country’s local and foreign banks, which face losses from Dubai World’s possible default, and offered them access to more money under a new facility. Banks will be able to use a special facility tied to their current accounts that can be accessed at a cost of 50 basis points above the three-month local benchmark interest rate, the Abu Dhabi-based regulator said in an e-mailed statement today. "This is a very reassuring move by the central bank to limit the risk of any run on Dubai-based banks," said John Sfakianakis, chief economist at Banque Saudi Fransi in Riyadh. It will alleviate any "liquidity concerns by foreign banks about the banking system, mostly those based in Dubai."
Dubai World, a state-owned holding company struggling with $59 billion of debt and other liabilities, said Nov. 25 it would seek a standstill agreement with creditors and an extension of loan maturities until at least May 30, 2010. The news led to a slump in financial markets around the world and raised prospects of new loan losses for U.A.E. and foreign banks. The benchmark three-month Emirates interbank offered rate was at 1.919 percent on Nov. 25, the last working day before a religious holiday, according to Bloomberg data. The U.A.E. has 24 local banks and 28 units of foreign lenders operating in the country, including those of Citigroup Inc. and HSBC Holdings Plc.
The cost of protecting Dubai government notes from default more than doubled to 647 basis points in three days after Dubai World announced plans to delay loan repayments, according to CMA DataVision prices. The swap contracts pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities or the cash equivalent should a company fail to adhere to its debt agreements. There are 100 basis points in a percentage point.
Dubai, the second-biggest of seven states that make up the U.A.E., and its state-owned companies borrowed $80 billion to fund an economic boom and diversify its economy. The onset of the global credit crisis and a decline in property prices hurt companies like Dubai World as they struggled to raise loans and forced the emirate to turn for help to Abu Dhabi, the U.A.E. capital and holder of 8 percent of the world’s oil reserves. U.A.E. banks are already facing rising loan losses stemming from the global recession as the economy slowed and two Saudi Arabian business groups defaulted on at least $15.7 billion of loans. Provisions for bad loans at U.A.E. banks rose to 2.76 percent of the total as of the end of October from 1.92 percent a year ago, according to central bank data.
The U.A.E.’s banking system is "more sound and liquid than a year ago" and local banks’ sale of medium-term notes and commercial paper in foreign markets has declined by 25 percent over the period, the central bank said. Foreign interbank deposits make up only 5 percent of the total, it said. Dubai World, which owns property developer Nakheel PJSC, the builder of palm-tree shaped islands off the emirate’s coast, has $40 billion of debt, two bankers familiar with the company said Oct. 21, declining to be identified because the information is private. Some $18 billion of Dubai World’s debt is with companies such as port operator DP World Ltd. that have sufficient cashflow to service their loans, the bankers said. The remaining $22 billion is of greater concern, they said.
The U.A.E.’s banking industry is already the biggest among the six Gulf Arab states including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar, with 1.54 trillion dirhams ($418 billion) in assets, central bank data show.
Dubai Debt May Be Much Higher Than $80 Billion, UBS Says
Dubai, the Persian Gulf emirate whose state-run companies are seeking to defer debt payments, may owe more than the $80 billion to $90 billion in liabilities assumed by investors, UBS AG analysts said. “Perhaps Dubai’s debt includes sizeable off-balance sheet liabilities that imply a total debt burden well above the $80 billion to $90 billion markets have estimated so far,” Dubai- based real estate analyst Saud Masud wrote in a note. “This could imply that the debt issued by Dubai in recent weeks is insufficient to meet upcoming redemptions.”
Dubai, which has said it will raise as much as $20 billion selling bonds to repay borrowings, said on Nov. 25 that state- run Dubai World, with $59 billion of liabilities, would ask creditors for a “standstill” agreement as it negotiates to extend debt maturities. The request to delay debt repayment “came as a major shock” to investors, Masud and fellow UBS London-based analyst Reinhard Cluse told clients on a conference call today. Dubai World property unit Nakheel PJSC has $3.52 billion of Islamic bonds due Dec. 14. Dubai World may seek to negotiate all its liabilities as it reorganizes the business, Masud said. “The Nakheel sukuk is the largest that has ever been issued,” Cluse said on the conference call. “Markets will take some time to digest this blow.”
Dubai accumulated $80 billion of debt by expanding in banking, real estate and transportation before credit markets seized up last year. The second biggest of seven sheikhdoms that make up the United Arab Emirates formed a fund to help reorganize state firms and sold $10 billion in bonds to the national central bank in February. It borrowed an additional $5 billion from Abu Dhabi government-controlled banks Nov. 25, half the $10 billion in bonds that Dubai ruler Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al-Maktoum said he planned to raise by yearend. Nakheel bondholders could demand a “significant sweetener” to renegotiate the debt and look to determine which of the real estate unit’s assets they may be able to claim, according to Masud.
There is growing interest from Persian Gulf investment funds in acquiring properties owned by Dubai entities, including Nakheel, which may be forced to sell assets to reduce debt, said Michael Atwell, head of Middle East operations at real estate broker Cushman & Wakefield. “We can sense it, and we’re hoping to have some transactions from several funds with buying requirements, some over $100 million,” he said. Potential buyers may be seeking stable cash flow from buildings with long leases. “The city is still buzzing. Dubai won’t turn into a ghost town, but there’ll be some big restructuring and reorganization, without a doubt.”
Seeking a repayment delay may indicate that Abu Dhabi, the U.A.E.’s largest sheikhdom, may not want to support Dubai further financially until the smaller emirate addresses internal problems at government-run companies, Masud said. “This could be the realization that you cannot simply buy your way out of this crisis,” Masud said. The request could also suggest that Abu Dhabi and Dubai have decided to seek to bolster long-term confidence in the market by forcing weaker parts of government businesses to take responsibility for bad decisions and could involve defaults at some Dubai firms, Masud said.
Dubai property developers may be liable for an estimated $11 billion required to build 40,000 homes that they have started, said Masud in an interview yesterday. That amount represents the off-balance sheet cost, or “funding gap” required to complete and hand over the properties, on which investors are now defaulting, by the end of 2010. Nakheel’s share of that funding gap is about $2 billion, estimated Masud. Around half of the investors in the 40,000 unfinished homes may default by the end of next year, he said. Mortgage defaults, which stand at about 3 percent of the total in the U.A.E., may increase fivefold to “the teens,” Masud said on the call today.
Greece and Dubai show the system is still unstable
by Gillian Tett
A watershed in the derivatives world could be reached this week: the cost of insuring against a bond default by Greece, using credit derivatives, may rise above the comparable metric for Turkey for the first time. Just two short years ago, that would have seemed almost inconceivable to most credit default swaps traders, never mind proud Greek politicians. After all, in 2007, the Turkish CDS spread - like that of many "emerging markets" - was trading at about 500 basis points on perceived fiscal risks.
Greece, by contrast, was nearer 15bp, because it was a member of the European Monetary Union, and its euro-denominated bonds were considered quasi-protected by other euro states. But in the past year the fiscal positions of many emerging markets nations, such as Turkey, have become more favourable relative to the western world. Meanwhile, Greece has plunged into a profound budgetary mess, notwithstanding its use of the euro.
Thus yesterday - as markets reeled from the Dubai shock and investors fled from risk - the bid-offer spread on fiveyear Greek CDSs was 201bp-208bp, according to Markit. That of Turkish CDSs was 207bp-212bp,
leaving them neck and neck (and according to Bloomberg data, in some trades the Greek CDS was even higher than Turkey). All this is a bitter blow to Greek pride. However, there is a much bigger moral here, which cuts to the heart of the Dubai saga too.
Two years ago, global investors generally did not spend much time worrying about so-called "tail risk" (a banking term for the chance that seemingly remote, nasty events might occur). After all, before 2007, when the world was supposedly enjoying the era of the "Great Moderation", the world seemed so stable and predictable that it was hard to imagine truly unpleasant events occurring. But in the past two years, a seemingly safe financial system has crumbled, and - to paraphrase Lewis Carroll - investors have repeatedly been asked to believe six impossible things before breakfast, ranging from the collapse of Lehman Brothers to the implosion of Iceland (and much else). Tail risk, in other words, has leapt into investor consciousness.
And while the financial markets have stabilised in the past six months, that lesson about tail risk cannot be easily unlearnt. The sheer psychological shock of 2007 and 2008, in other words, has left investors looking like veterans from a brutal war. Long after the fighting has stopped, the mere sound of a "bang", is apt to leave them running for cover. All this does not mean - let me stress - that it is correct to expect the world to melt down imminently. The fact that the CDS spread for Greek bonds has swung from 5bp to 200bp, in other words, should not be interpreted as a sign of an imminent Greek default, or a likely break-up of the euro. The CDS market is pretty illiquid and prices can swing on low volumes.
But what the CDS market does capture is the perception of tail risk, or low-probability outcomes. Or, to put it another way, the market projects what could occur if the current fiscal and political situations were taken to logical extremes. Much of the time investors are tempted to ignore those logical extremes. After all, investors have known for months that Dubai World was dangerously over-leveraged. They assumed that this would not be too dangerous, because they thought that foreign investors would always be protected.
Now, however, that assumption has been challenged. Tail risk has resurfaced with a vengeance. Little wonder that the CDS spreads of some other debt-laden emerging markets, such as Hungary, swung wider too yesterday. Nor that the Greek CDS moved as well. For while investors used to assume that it was just emerging market countries that were prone to suffering truly nasty fiscal shocks, the debt fundamentals in Dubai are not necessarily so different from those in developed nations, be that Greece or even the US. Suddenly the line between "emerging" and "developed" countries is becoming more blurred.
So perhaps the best way to view the events in Dubai - and the Greek CDS price - is as a welcome wake-up call. In recent months, a sense of stabilisation has returned to the financial system as a whole, as central banks have poured in vast quantities of support. A striking liquidity-fuelled asset price rally has also got under way. But the grim truth is that many of the fundamental imbalances that created the crisis in the first place - such as excess leverage - have not yet disappeared. Beneath any aura of stability huge potential vulnerabilities remain. If yesterday's events prompt investors to remember that, so much the better; not just in Dubai but in Greece too.
Ports face crisis as volumes fall
The world’s container ports industry is facing a sharp reversal in its fortunes as the sector’s first ever year-on-year fall in volumes forces an abrupt change from breakneck expansion to retrenchment. The four biggest operators – Hong Kong’s Hutchison Ports, Singapore’s PSA, Denmark’s APM Terminals and Dubai’s DP World – have cut costs, including laying off staff, and delayed or cancelled new construction projects.
London-based Drewry Shipping Consultants forecasts a year-on-year fall of 10.3 per cent in containers moved this year, compared with 4.6 per cent growth in 1982, the previous worst year since 1956, when container shipping started. "Before October 2008, our industry was used to 10 to 15 per cent annual growth in global trade volumes," said Kim Fejfer, chief executive of APM Terminals. "Not only are we in the middle of a volume crisis but our customers, the container carriers, are in an even more difficult situation because of the over-capacity in that particular sector," he added.
Mohammed Sharaf, chief executive of DP World, said the industry was facing a major change. "We have to shift gears, shift our thinking process to meet the demand." The slowdown has increased the focus on cost-cutting. "We have more time to focus on specific areas such as efficiencies of the equipment, the utilisation of the equipment and the challenge of shuffling man hours," Mr Sharaf said. All the big four operators, except DP World, have cancelled port projects.
Hutchison has pulled out of projects in Thessaloniki in Greece and Manta in Ecuador, although it insisted both were a result of efforts by the authorities to make unilateral changes to its contract. PSA is known to have cancelled some projects, but declines to comment publicly. Mr Fejfer confirmed that APM Terminals had pulled out of some projects but declined to say which. "On some projects, we had to review the proposition from a cost point of view and a capital expenditure point of view," he said. "We also unfortunately had to cancel a few projects."
Neil Davidson, ports analyst at Drewry Shipping Consultants, said that, while terminal operators had suffered falling revenue, their profit margins were "largely unchanged". Mr Sharaf said he believed the downturn could prove ultimately healthy for operators if it helped them to learn to control costs better. "I think this is something good which is happening, in a way," he said.
NYSE Invokes Rule 48 In Anticipation Of Extreme Volatility
The NYSE hedged its bets earlier by invoking the rarely used Rule 48, which "provides the exchange with the ability to suspend the requirement to disseminate price indications and obtain floor-official approval prior to the opening when extremely high market-wide volatility could cause delay opening securities on the exchange." The full disclosure was made on the NYSE blog:
Rule 48 is intended to be invoked only in those situations where the potential for extreme market volatility would likely impair floor-wide operations at the exchange by impeding the fair and orderly opening of securities. Accordingly, the rule sets forth a number of factors to be considered before declaring such a condition, including:
Volatility during the previous day’s trading session;
Trading in foreign markets before the open;
Substantial activity in the futures market before the open;
The volume of pre-opening indications of interest;
Evidence of pre-opening significant order imbalances across the market;
Government announcements;
News and corporate events; and,
Any such other market conditions that could impact floor-wide trading conditions.
And some other "do not panic, we have nothing under control" information dissemination by the NYSE:
The invocation of Rule 48 is in effect only for today. Previously, the NYSE invoked the rule on 11 March, 2008; 23 Jan., 2008; 22 Jan., 2008; and 12 Dec., 2007. The rule was approved by the Securities and Exchange Commission on 6 Dec., 2007. Now add 17 March, 2008 to the list. I kind of had an uneasy feeling all weekend about Bear Stearns, and felt even worse upon seeing the announcement on Sunday night. To my train buddy at Bear Stearns and his colleagues, I'm sorry to see this happen.
And just for reference, here's a link to our circuit breakers. Here's hoping we don't need them today. Or any other day, for that matter.
Good luck today, everyone.
Good luck indeed.
Keeping Derivatives in the Dark
by Floyd Norris
Opaque markets breed insider profits and abuse of investors. Sunshine can bring competition and lower costs even if regulators do little beyond letting the sunlight shine. You might think that as Congress considers just how much regulation is needed for the shadow financial system — the one that largely escaped regulation in the past — letting in such light would be an easy and uncontroversial move. But it is not proving to be easy at all, and is one part of the Obama administration’s financial reform package that is most in jeopardy.
Timothy Geithner, the secretary of the Treasury, will testify before the Senate Agriculture Committee next week in an effort to hold on to important provisions of the proposal that have come under attack by banks fearful of losing one of their most profitable franchises — the selling of customized derivatives to corporate customers. Remarkably, the banks have persuaded customers that keeping the market for those products secret is in their interest.
Last week, Gary Gensler, the chairman of the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, faced the same panel, and ran into questions that indicated at least some senators were sympathetic to efforts to keep large parts of the derivatives market in the dark. Those markets allow companies to bet on — or, if you prefer, hedge themselves against losses from — changing interest rates and commodity prices. They also allow investors to use credit-default swaps to bet on whether a company will go broke. The administration wants to standardize those products when possible, and force the trading of them onto exchanges when possible.
Banks want to whittle away the reforms if they can, and to minimize the roles of the C.F.T.C. and the Securities and Exchange Commission, experienced market regulators who have been generally kept away from over-the-counter derivatives in the past. Instead, the banks would like to leave it to banking regulators to oversee the dealers, something regulators totally failed to do in the past. Unless Mr. Geithner can persuade legislators otherwise, one of the great bank lobbying campaigns will have succeeded, in large part because some companies that buy derivatives from banks have been persuaded that their costs will rise if needed reforms were made.
The opposite is probably true. The history of nearly all markets is that customers suffer if dealers are able to keep them ignorant of what is actually going on. Until the beginning of this decade, that was true in the corporate bond market, where actual trades were kept confidential. That made it easy for bond dealers to charge big markups when they sold bonds to customers. After regulators forced timely disclosures, the bid-ask spreads — the difference between what customers paid when they bought bonds and what they could get when selling them — declined significantly. The result was smaller profits for bond dealers, and better returns for bond investors.
"It is now time," Mr. Gensler testified, "to promote similar transparency in the relatively new marketplace" for derivatives traded over the counter. "Lack of regulation in these markets," he added, "has created significant information deficits." He listed "information deficits for market participants who cannot observe transactions as they occur and, thus, cannot benefit from the transparent price discovery function of the marketplace; information deficits for the public who cannot see the aggregate scope and scale of the markets; and information deficits for regulators who cannot see and police the markets."
In the listed markets for derivative securities, like futures, there are margins that must be posted every day if markets move against the buyer of the derivative. Corporate customers of over-the-counter derivatives fear that they might face similar margin requirements if their contracts were to be traded on exchanges, and have persuaded some legislators that would be horrible.
Of course, because prices aren’t made public, we can only hope that the banks currently are pricing the credit at reasonable levels. The banks say they are. Robert Pickel, the chief executive of the International Swaps and Derivatives Association, an industry group, assured me this week that "the cost of credit is taken into account in the collateral relationship and in the bid-ask spread."
In layman’s terms, that means that customers with worse credit would face different prices than customers with excellent credit, which Mr. Pickel argued would make price disclosure of limited value. Mr. Gensler, the C.F.T.C. chairman, argues that customers would be better off if the two markets — for the derivatives and for the credit — were separated and had clear pricing. "How else," he asked in an interview, "can customers know if they are getting fair prices?"
Remarkably, big corporations like Boeing, Caterpillar and many others that use derivatives to hedge risk have been persuaded by bankers that they should not worry about that. If over-the-counter derivatives were to be traded on exchanges, or centrally cleared, or subject to margin requirements, a host of corporate trade associations and companies said in a recent letter to legislators, such reforms "would inhibit companies from using these important risk management tools in the course of everyday business operations. These proposals, which would increase business risk and raise costs, are at cross purposes with the goals of lowering systemic risk and promoting economic recovery."
Reflected in that letter is a belief that the banks, in designing and selling derivatives to customers, are acting as trusted advisers, looking out for the best interests of their customers. Every so often, one of these deals blows up and winds up in court. Then the banks argue that they were simply counterparties, with no responsibility for the wisdom, or lack of same, shown by the customers.
If, as seems likely, Congress chooses to eliminate or minimize the disclosure of customer trades, and if it allows custom derivatives to remain almost completely opaque and without visible pricing of credit, that will encourage some corporate customers to prefer customized contracts. Such contracts will probably cost them more, but the cost of credit will be hidden, and they may not have to post collateral immediately if they are losing money.
For Mr. Geithner, this legislative battle may indicate whether he still has the ability to persuade legislators, or whether he has become the political liability that at least some Republicans think he is. When he ventured to Capitol Hill earlier this month, one congressman suggested he should resign. If Mr. Geithner is vulnerable, it is because the efforts of the administration and the Federal Reserve to save the banking system worked too well. The fears of collapse that were present early this year have faded away, and been replaced by a general feeling of resentment. The banks seem to be on the verge of harnessing that feeling of resentment to preserve a major profit center. In terms of lobbying, it will be a remarkable achievement.
As one crisis recedes, the fiscal one may be only beginning
It is hard to recall a time when opinion on asset markets was more sharply polarised between bulls and bears. But then it is also hard to recall a time when the future course of the world economy looked so uncertain. The bulls point to resurgent growth in the emerging markets of Asia and Latin America, and reckon the developed world will soon be following, albeit it at a slower pace. The bears focus instead on burgeoning fiscal deficits, still shrinking private credit availability and a basic lack of demand in once buoyant deficit nations. For them, the big menace is "out of control" public debt. Yet for the moment there is no doubt which view is triumphing. Since the nadir of the crisis in March, the price of virtually all assets has risen strongly. I say virtually all, but of course one of the biggest asset classes of the lot – government bonds – has not. Bond prices are quite a bit lower than they were last March. And therein lies a large part of the bear case.
If all governments have done in fighting the crisis is replace private debt with public debt, then they have not addressed the underlying problem. The most that can be said is that they have smoothed and stretched out the adjustment, but they have not removed it. What's more, governments must soon start the process of rebuilding their finances, which in turn is going to act as a brake on demand for possibly years to come. In the meantime, fiscal deficits throughout the developed world are rising to levels which even the most sanguine of observers find truly scary. Some idea of the scale of this deterioration is given by the latest edition of Moody's sovereign debt "statistical handbook". Preliminary estimates suggest that the total stock of sovereign debt will rise by nearly a half to around $15.3 trillion by the end of next year.
Sovereign debt of such magnitude is not entirely without precedent. Britain emerged from the Second World War with debts of 240pc of GDP. IMF forecasts of around 100pc in five years' time for the UK look almost pedestrian by comparison. But for this country at least, it's still a peacetime record by a long way. Fiscal adjustment after a major war is a relatively straightforward matter. Military spending is simply switched off and things return quite quickly to normal. But when a country has been routinely spending beyond its means, then the correction in terms of tax rises and spending cuts becomes considerably more difficult and painful. Given these challenges, the wonder is not that bond prices have not risen in tandem with equities and other assets, but that they haven't fallen a good deal further. The UK Government alone plans a record £220bn of debt issuance this fiscal year and not much less in each of the next four.
This is a mere bagatelle against the trillions being raised across the developed world as a whole. There must surely be limits both on investors' appetite for such a mountain of public debt and on the ability of governments to service and repay it. And yet, despite the fact that these limits are being stretched to breaking point, bond markets remain remarkably calm. How come? After the collapse of Lehman Brothers, bond yields in the US and other countries seen as safe havens fell sharply. High demand for government debt as a result of risk aversion was reinforced by liquidity injections and in some cases, including the US and UK, outright purchases of bonds by central banks. With the return of risk appetite, investor demand for sovereign debt waned, but yields have remained substantially below pre-crisis levels. Quantitative easing, under which governments borrow with money created by the central bank, has plainly helped.
Demand is also supported by a massive carry trade which allows investors to borrow at next to nothing from central bank funds and then lend it out for more further down the yield curve. The authorities have conspired to create other artificial sources of demand too, by for instance, requiring banks to hold bigger liquidity buffers. These have to be held in so-called "risk-free assets", which means effectively government bonds. Regulatory demands for more exact liability matching has further encouraged a herd-like movement among insurers and maturing pension funds away from productive investment into government debt. Only, of course, bonds are not risk- free. The main threat is usually from resurgent inflation, which can destroy capital more effectively than even the idiocies of miscreant bankers.
For the moment, nobody's worrying too much about inflation. The margin of spare capacity in the economy – the output gap, in the jargon – is too big. That joyous moment in which output again catches up with capacity is still regrettably many years away. The other risk is fiscal, where again market perceptions are still remarkably tame. If bond markets do crack over the next year, this is where the trouble will start. Investors will demand more for their money even in conditions where there is outright price deflation if they see rising risk of default. Markets remain accommodative only because they expect governments to come up with and deliver on credible plans for fiscal consolidation. Those that show signs of failing to do so – notably Greece – are already being hammered in the bond markets.
Across the board, the cost of insuring against default on sovereign debt has risen markedly. How real is this danger? In countries which are monetarising the deficit – again mainly Britain and America – risk of default is reflected more through currency weakness than yields. Sterling depreciation means that it is now 25pc cheaper for foreign investors to buy UK gilts than it was before the crisis, all other things being equal. For higher-risk countries in currency unions (think Greece, Italy and Spain) or with inherently strong currencies (think Japan), yields are already on the march. My own guess is that fiscal risk will be one of the big defining stories of the next year, and that this in turn will create lots of difficulties for governments. Common sense alone suggests you cannot create such an oversupply and expect markets to pay the same. The key thing to watch out for is the rising burden of interest payments as a percentage of government revenues. Most major economies are still well below the danger point of 10pc, where without radical action debt begins to compound, but such is the accumulation of borrowing that some will be perilously close or even through it in four years' time.
On present projections, some smaller countries will also breach the 12.5pc level which credit rating agencies judge to be the point of no return. What makes the position doubly worrying is that it only requires interest rates to rise a bit to put Britain and others in just such a debt trap. The flip side of economic recovery would be government bankruptcy. For nearly all developed economy governments, simply allowing the fiscal stimulus of the last year or two to expire will not be enough. Nor will return to growth fix the problem. Debt would still be left on an explosive course. For the time being, nobody seems to care. Yields are still tame. But, as the IMF has remarked, markets tend to react late and abruptly to changed fiscal circumstances. Small wonder that the bears have not yet been driven back into the woods. One crisis has been averted, but the fiscal one may be only just beginning.
China, gold, and the civilization shift
Stephen Jen from the hedge fund Blue Gold Capital has a warning for those who think that gold has risen far too high, is necessarily in a speculative bubble, and must soon come clattering back down. Mr Jen is an expert on sovereign wealth funds from his days at Morgan Stanley. The gold story — essentially — is that the rising economic powers of Asia, the Middle East, and the commodity bloc are rejecting Western fiat currencies. China, India, and Russia have all been buying gold on a large scale over recent months. Why should that stop when the AAA club of sovereign debtors is pushing towards the danger threshold of 100pc of GDP?
These new players account for almost all the accumulation of foreign currency reserves worldwide over the last five years, so what they do matters enormously. After crunching the numbers, Mr Jen found that the share of gold in their reserves is just 2.2pc compared to 38pc for the Old World (perhaps we should just call them the deadbeats from now on). They would have to buy $115bn of gold at current prices to raise their bullion to just 5pc of total reserves, and $700bn to reach just half western levels. The killer-term here is at current prices since any such move in the tiny global market for gold would send prices into the stratosphere.
Mr Jen says that you know where you are in the currency markets — more or less — because there are concepts of "fair value" used by experts. Ditto for the equity markets, where you have P/E ratios (warts and all I might add, since the actual reported P/E of the S&P 500 was a record 141 in September before the agency stopped publishing the figure — a far cry from the forward earnings in vogue). How on earth do we determine what fair value should be for gold? "We have no such concept," he said. Actually, that is not quite true. You can use the dollar monetary base as a proxy. Mr Jen said China alone accumulated $150bn in reserves in the third quarter, pushing the total to $2.3 trillion. These are colossal sums. China is amassing almost as much each month as the United States ($63bn) has built up in the entire history of the country. True, the US understates the value of its gold, but you get the picture. Something big is going on.
So far, China has just 1.7pc of its reserves in gold, or 34m troy ounces. I was told by a top Chinese official that they are buying on the dips so as not to crowd out the market, which means of course that gold cannot "crash" unless you think China itself is going to crash — or stop building reserves (which is possible: Albert Edwards from SocGen says China may be in current account deficit next year, leading to a yuan move — down, not up). The gold proportions are: Hong Kong (0), Singapore (0), Korea (0.2), Brazil (0.6), India (4.8) after its shock purchase of IMF gold, and Russia (5.5). Yes, the West still has a lot in percentage terms — US (86), France (78), Italy (72), Switzerland (33), Germany (25) — but they don’t count for so much any more.
It is true that the Old World could meet demand for a while (a short while actually) by selling some of their gold. But will they do so? They did not use up their quota for the last year under the Washington accord. My own guess is that they too are wondering whether it makes any sense to keep selling metal in order to buy the fiat paper of the bankrupt peers (note that the Bank of England’s own pension fund has got rid of almost all its Gilts, buying inflation protection instead). Britain may become a net buyer of gold under the Tories, Who knows? Bottom line: "The scope for EM central banks to buy more gold is substantial, if they choose to do so," he wrote cautiously in a note to clients. Will they choose to do so? "I suspect they will," he told me. Personally, I have been feeling vertigo with gold near $1180. All my contrarian instincts cause me to dislike momentum stories — but there again, maybe this is not momentum. Perhaps it is a civilization shift. Can’t make up my mind.
ING to Raise $11.2 Billion at 52% Discount
Dutch Financial Company ING Group NV said Friday that has priced its €7.5 billion ($11.2 billion) rights issue at a hefty discount in a move aimed at repaying half the €10 billion state aid it received during the financial crisis. The company said it will issue new shares at €4.24 each, representing a 52% discount to Thursday's closing price, or 37.3% after taking into account the dilution once the new shares start trading. "This rights issue is a critical component of the measures we announced to regain our independence and to chart a clear course forward," ING's Chief Executive Jan Hommen said.
ING follows a number of other European banks that have taken advantage of more buoyant capital markets to raise funds as a way of reducing government involvement in their businesses. The U.K.'s Lloyds Banking Group, which is 43% state owned, on Thursday won shareholder approval for a £13.5 billion rights issue priced at a 60% discount. European bank rights issues have been priced at a 40%-45% discount to their share prices before the offer announcement, according to analyst estimates.
At ING, existing shareholders can subscribe for six new shares for every seven subscription rights they hold from Nov. 30 to Dec. 15. ING shares closed Thursday at €8.92. In addition to repaying half its state aid, ING has to pay a penalty to the Dutch government of up to €965 million due to early repayment as well as an extra payment of €1.3 billion related to state guarantees on its Alt-A portfolio. The€1.3 billion will be booked as a one-off pre-tax charge in the fourth quarter of 2009.
The rights issue is fully underwritten by a syndicate of banks led by Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan. Earlier this week ING's shareholders approved the rights issue and gave the green light for a radical restructuring of the company marking the end of its formerly praised bancassurance model. In negotiations with the European Commission over competition concerns, ING agreed to divest some of its assets, leaving it to focus mainly on its banking activities.
Bundesbank fears relapse as German banks face €90 billion fresh losses
The Bundesbank has told German banks to take advantage of renewed confidence while they can to prepare for likely losses of €90bn (£81bn) over the next year, warning that the delayed shock waves of the economic crisis still pose a major threat to global recovery and bank finance. The venerable bank said in its Stability Report that the world had narrowly averted a "virtually uncontrollable" collapse in the late summer of 2008. While the credit system has partly stabilised, the underlying problems "are still far from being overcome" and money markets are not yet functioning properly. "It is already clear that the financial system will be severely tested going forward. Downside risks remain pre-dominant," said the report.
The danger is that a long phase of stagnation and rising job loses in the West sets off "spiralling loan losses in both industry and in the residential and commercial real estate markets. In such an unfavourable scenario, negative feedback between the real economy and the financial system could gain added momentum." The Bundesbank said the next wave of bank write-downs will come from loan book losses as the default rate on lower-tier companies tops 14pc in the US and 12pc in Europe. German banks alone will have to write down €50bn to €70bn of loans over the next year. Losses from sub-prime securities are mostly in the open already. Further write-down from collateralised debt obligations (CDOs) - mostly tranches of mortgage debt packaged as securities - are likely to be €10bn to €15bn.
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the International Monetary Fund, told Le Figaro on Wednesday that banks worldwide have so far admitted to just half of the $3.5 trillion (£2.1 trillion) of likely damage. "There are still large hidden losses: perhaps 50pc tucked away in balance sheets. The proportion is higher in Europe than in America. The history of banking crisis, notably in Japan, shows that there won't be healthy growth again until the banks have been cleaned up completely," he said.
The Bundesbank report came a day after Berlin agreed to inject up to €4bn to rescue WestLB, the country's third largest state bank. Commerzbank, HSH Nordbank, and Bayern LB have all run into trouble, requiring large bail-outs that have angered German taxpayers. The state Landesbanken emerged as the most reckless, building large liabilities `off-books' through Irish-based investment vehicles. Paradoxically, Europe's bank problems help explain why the euro has risen to a 15-month high of $1.51 against the dollar. Hans Redeker from BNP Paribas said distressed banks are having to sell assets overseas and repatriate the money to shore up their capital base, pushing the euro towards the pain barrier for many European exporters.
KPMG: Brussels puts European banks on sale
Many banks are surprised by the way Europe's competition commissioner Neelie Kroes intervenes in the sector, consultants at KPMG say. "They didn't know they would be sanctioned like this because of state aid." The European Commission is turning the European banking landscape into an enormous all-you-can-eat buffet for financial institutions in the United States and Asia, according to accounting giant KPMG. "They see all these nice little snacks laid out for them," says Marcel van den Broek, a Dutch consultant at the firm.
Van den Broek and Age Lindenbergh analysed the effects of state aid on European banks and draw one clear conclusion: "The aid was initially helpful and brought stability, but the actions the Commission took after that were too harsh," says Lindenbergh. "They have gone overboard, they are pulling down banks instead of helping them." European banks have been more restricted after receiving state aid than their American counterparts. As a result of the European Commission's interference the European banking sector is now highly fragmented and weakened, the consultants say. "Anglo-Saxon investors - mainly private equity firms such as Lone Star [a Texan company that was in the race to take over part of bankrupt DSB bank] - come to us for information on future bargains. They are mostly funds that specialise in managing credit portfolios," says Lindenbergh. The KPMG consultants fear this won't contribute to a strong banking industry desired by all, including the European Commission.
Lindenbergh and Van den Broek's criticism counters the accolades antitrust commissioner Neelie Kroes has been getting for her handling of the banks. Kroes' directorate general has scrutinised the state aid for ING, KBC, Commerzbank, Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland and others who were thrown a lifeline by their governments. Her fans praise Kroes' approach because it helps restore competition between European banks. "Banks think they are treated unfairly," Lindenbergh says. "It is obvious they have to do something in return for the bailouts. But at the time the banks received the support, it was completely unclear what the sanctions would be. They had to wait months to learn the consequences." "The rules were only drawn up while the game had already started," Van den Broek adds. The toughness of Kroes' policies has now become clear. ING, Commerzbank and WestLB, for example, have to divest 45 percent of their assets.
That is out of proportion, according to the KPMG men. "The government interference is experienced as imperative," says Lindenbergh. Kroes does refer to existing EU treaties in her restructuring proposals, KMPG acknowledges, "but the way a company is finally broken up is subject to negotiations. There are no rules for that. The only similarity [between the different cases] is the measures are substantial and the part where the problems originated is usually hived off," Lindenbergh says, referring to ING subsidiary ING Direct USA. Furthermore, the banks are not discharged of their obligations even when they repay the state aid. "The consequences of the reform plans from Brussels will weigh on the banks for years. ING can reimburse the bailout, but it will still be cut into pieces," the consultants say, adding this will distort the banking landscape for years to come.
Lindenbergh: "The European Commission stepped in to prevent state aid from distorting free competition, but as a result a level playing field will be a long time coming." KPMG says the Commission is too focused on small banks and not enough on the risks of its policies. But despite their criticism towards Brussels, not a single bank has actively opposed the harsh measures. "They have not reported to us," says Van den Broek. But there is a logical explanation, he admits. A bank cannot file a case before the European Court; that is up to the member state where the bank has its headquarters. And although the banks feel disadvantaged, it is unlikely governments will act on their behalf right now. The damage done by the financial industry is too big to justify that.
French jobless total jumps 52,400 in October
France's headline unemployment rose 52,400 in October, the largest rise since April, data from the economy ministry showed on Thursday, confirming expectations for a worsening labour market. The monthly data showed the headline jobless total in the euro zone's second largest economy rising to 2.627 million compared with September. That was a 2.0 percent monthly increase and represented a 25.0 percent rise year-on-year.
'We have a figure for October which is not good and which confirms our diagnosis that we have exited the recession but the recover is still fragile, that the economy is still in crisis and continues to destroy jobs,' Economy Minister Christine Lagarde said at a news conference in Lyon. Lagarde has repeatedly argued the recovery was fragile and therefore it was too soon to remove economic support put in place to help economies through the financial crisis.
The rise in unemployment hit workers over 50 and under 25 the hardest. There was a 28.1 percent year-on-year increase in the number of jobseekers among under 25-year-olds and a 28.3 percent rise among over 50-year-olds. Recent unemployment data has surprised economists, many of whom had been expecting larger increases after the recession which France left behind in the second quarter. The jobless total rose 21,600 in September. Ministers had warned of further increases through 2009 and 2010.
The monthly figures reported by the economy ministry do not include an unemployment rate but according to the most recent data from the European Union statistics office, France's unemployment rate stood at 10 percent in September. Economists worry that if the unemployment rate jumps sharply, it could hurt consumer spending, the mainstay of France's economic growth. Spending on manufactured goods rose 1.1 percent in October, above expectations, boosting hopes for fourth quarter growth.
Third quarter gross domestic product showed the French economy grew by 0.3 percent between July and September, and economists expect stronger growth in the fourth quarter. But unemployment is a lagging indicator of economic health and companies have been forced to cut jobs to stay competitive. Lagarde also said on Thursday the strong euro was making it particularly difficult for European exporters. The government has said tackling unemployment is a priority and has not looked favourably on companies shifting jobs abroad.
In one current case, the planned sale of nuclear operator Areva's transmission and distribution unit, foreign bidders have made promises to protect local jobs in a bid to outweigh the perceived advantage of a French offer for the business. France's jobless data is not prepared according to the widely used International Labour Organisation standards and does not include an unemployment rate. However, it is politically significant because it is the mostly widely reported domestic jobs indicator.
Kazakh Bank Lost Billions in Western Investments
In the last few years, big banks have found many surprising ways to lose billions of dollars by making loans that turned sour. But few can match the odd tale involving Kazakhstan and a little-known bank that many Western financiers wish had remained so to them. From 2003 to 2008, the likes of Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, Royal Bank of Scotland, ING and others funneled more than $10 billion in loans into Kazakhstan’s largest bank, Bank Turalem, as the large Central Asian country enjoyed a growth boom spurred by its rich deposits of oil and natural gas.
So many of these loans are now bust that many foreign banks are facing write-offs of as much as 80 percent of their value, prompting investigations into why the loans went so bad so fast, according to officials at Bank Turalem, which was taken over by the government earlier this year. Hoping to become the dominant bank in the region, BTA, as the bank is known, cast its eye well beyond Kazakhstan and lent billions of dollars to finance vast real estate projects in Russia and Ukraine, as well as offshore companies with vague business plans and no trading histories to speak of, according to executives at BTA who did not want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.
The money went to companies with names like Best Catch Trading and Sandown Holding, based in places as diverse as the Seychelles, the British Virgin Islands and England, that offered up little in the way of collateral, according to these executives. Among other things, prosecutors in Kazakhstan and a team of international lawyers and accountants hired by Bank Turalem are investigating whether the foreign banks may have unwittingly financed a scheme by BTA’s former chairman, Mukhtar Ablyazov, to direct between $8 billion and $12 billion worth of BTA loans — about half of the bank’s loan book — to companies that he secretly controlled, according to lawyers representing BTA as well as prosecutors in Kazakhstan.
Mr. Ablyazov denies the allegations, insisting that the loans were proper and that the investigation is politically inspired because he has been a critic of the government. Mr. Ablyazov is a longtime political opponent of Nursultan Nazarbayev, Kazakhstan’s authoritarian president, and he fled Kazakhstan for London just days before the government took over BTA this February, fearing a government crackdown.
Whether the investigation reveals the foreign banks to have been careless, naïve or hoodwinked about how the loans would be used, the losses point to a recurring problem for supposedly smart and sophisticated international bankers. In past decades, international banks have rushed headlong into hot markets like Mexico and Argentina, and later into Thailand and Russia, only to suffer huge losses.
Ignoring or forgetting lessons learned from those debacles, institutions poured billions of dollars to help finance property developments in Ireland, the global expansion of Icelandic banks and subprime mortgages in the United States, only to see much of that money evaporate. "Capital markets have no memories," said Richard Portes, a professor of economics at the London Business School. "Bankers simply charge premium spreads high enough to take defaults and still end up, on average, with profitable lending."
Currently embroiled in arduous talks with BTA over restructuring their debt in hopes of trimming their losses, foreign bankers claim they did their homework before making the loans, although none would publicly discuss their relationship with BTA and its controversial chairman. Deloitte, the accounting firm that is advising a steering committee representing the foreign banks, did not respond to a request for comment. In a statement, Credit Suisse, which lent close to $1.1 billion to BTA, the most of any bank, said its current exposure to BTA was immaterial to its financial condition and that "all transactions with BTA went through established due diligence procedures." But, while BTA may have been the flavor of the day for international lenders, questions were being raised about it closer to home.
"BTA was one of the least transparent banks here, and there were a whole bunch of transactions prior to the seizure that indicated extremely lax banking," said Michael Carter, the chief executive of Visor Capital, an investment bank based in Kazakhstan. "But Kazakhstan was very sexy at the time, and foreign banks were just shoveling in money, so much so that that banks here had more money than they knew what to do with."
Mr. Ablyazov, 46, a small, energetic man who made his first fortune importing cars from Lithuania, maintains that the loans that BTA made were legitimate. He claims that the $9 billion charge against profits that the bank declared after he left — as well as the government takeover of the bank — represent the final stage of a plot by President Nazarbayev to wrest BTA from him. "We have been a profitable and transparent bank, with $538 million in profits in 2007," said Mr. Ablyazov in an interview through an interpreter in London.
As he sees it, the robust support he garnered from international banks was an endorsement of his plan to remake BTA in the image of HSBC, the hugely successful international bank that grew from its roots as a colonial bank financing trade between China and Britain. He scoffs at the allegation that his ultimate aim was to siphon off profits. "We would do all this just to misdeal money? That would be a strange criminal to make a plan like this," he said.
It may be some time before investigations determine if Mr. Ablyazov did anything illegal at BTA or is just the target of a political witch hunt. But BTA has already filed a civil suit against Mr. Ablyazov on a narrower claim in a British court that he misappropriated $295 million in bank funds last year; a judge ruled this month that the charges were serious enough to support the continued freezing of his assets.
What is not in dispute is that, even by the loose standards of the credit boom, few banks lent as aggressively as BTA. Between 2003 and 2007, the amount of its loans outstanding grew by an extraordinary 1,100 percent. Like many other banks in less developed countries, BTA relied heavily on foreign funds, as opposed to customer deposits, to propel its loan growth — so much so that its ratio of loans to deposits peaked at 3.6 to 1 in 2007, one of the highest anywhere in the world.
Mr. Ablyazov maintains that BTA would have paid off its loans had he remained at the helm and that the enormous charge-off was a ploy by Mr. Nazarbayev to seize control of BTA and damage a political rival’s reputation. Lawyers and BTA executives contend that many of the offshore companies were controlled by Mr. Ablyazov, and BTA lawyers are now trying to determine whether the loans were used to provide billions of dollars to Mr. Ablyazov’s own real estate projects — in particular, a 4,700-acre development outside Moscow in which BTA has a $1.5 billion credit exposure.
Although his title was chairman, Mr. Ablyazov took a hands-on approach when it came to the bank’s lending, even sitting on the regional credit committee that oversaw many of the questionable loans. In its 2008 report on BTA, Ernst & Young, the bank’s auditor, highlighted this unusual arrangement, citing it as a conflict of interest that "potentially contributed to the issuance of loans to offshore companies, which became uncollectible in 2008."
Mr. Ablyazov disputes this claim, saying that he had headed this committee for three years without complaint from his auditor, and that the bank’s credit operations were transparent. Nikolay Varenko, the deputy chairman of BTA and the executive leading the bank’s internal investigation into Mr. Ablyazov’s activities, disagrees. "The bank was like an investment fund for his own personal projects," he said.
For Mr. Ablyazov, the question of how he deployed BTA’s loan book is just the latest in a series of battles he has been waging with President Nazarbayev. And while he may well have his enemies, few question his bravery. In 2001, he and several other reform-minded businessmen founded the Democratic Choice of Kazakhstan Party, the first opposition party to challenge Mr. Nazarbayev on the ground that he and his network of family insiders were monopolizing economic and political power. A year later, he was sentenced to six years behind bars on charges related to his time as head of the government electricity company. Mr. Ablyazov claims the charges were politically motivated. He served a little over a year in Kazakhstan prison, where he says he was subjected to numerous beatings and other forms of torture.
After pressure from international human rights organizations, Mr. Ablyazov was released in 2003. In 2005 he took full control of BTA. These days, he rents a 15,000-square-foot mansion on Bishops Avenue in London, one of London’s most exclusive neighborhoods, where security guards stand day and night. Unlike other oligarchs here, Mr. Ablyazov keeps a low profile in London. He says that his ultimate aim is to overthrow Mr. Nazarbayev, even though he could be caught up in British courts for years to come. "I am just here temporarily," he insisted. "In the end I will return to Kazakhstan."
Blame Larry Summers
Barack Obama's chief economic advisor, Lawrence Summers, is determined to sabotage a second round of stimulus. And, he's getting plenty of help, too. Congressional Democrats are dragging their feet because they're worried about the political backlash and midterm elections, the GOP deficit hawks are looking for a way they can derail the Obama agenda and reestablish their bone fides as fiscal conservatives, and the bailout-traumatized American people are simply opposed to anything that generates more red ink. Even Obama has joined the fray and started badmouthing stimulus stressing the importance of living within our means and trimming the deficits. So it looks like a done-deal; no more stimulus. There's only one problem, without another blast of stimulus the economy is headed for the skids.
Summers knows this because he is an extremely bright and competent economist. With Summers, the issue is loyalty, not intelligence. To prove this point, consider Summers comments in a Washington Post editorial (September of 2008) where he explains what needs to be done to put the economy back on track:
"Indeed, in the current circumstances the case for fiscal stimulus -- policy actions that increase short-term deficits -- is stronger than ever before in my professional lifetime. Unemployment is almost certain to increase -- probably to the highest levels in a generation. Monetary policy has little scope to stimulate the economy given how low interest rates already are and the problems in the financial system. Global experience with economic downturns caused by financial distress suggests that while they are of uncertain depth, they are almost always of long duration.
“The economic point here can be made straightforwardly: The more people who are unemployed, the more desirable it is that government takes steps to put them back to work by investing in infrastructure or energy or simply by providing tax cuts that allow families to avoid cutting back on their spending.” ("A Bailout Is Just a Start", Lawrence Summers, Washington Post)
To repeat: "Monetary policy has little scope to stimulate the economy given how low interest rates already are and the problems in the financial system."
Bingo. Zero-percent rates don't give any traction in a liquidity trap. That's why economists push for fiscal stimulus; jobs programs, state aid, and extended unemployment benefits. That's the only way to narrow the output gap and rev up economic activity. Summers doesn't even challenge the idea; in fact, he makes the case for fiscal stimulus. Of course, that was then, and now is now. Here's another clip of Summers stirring up the masses at the Brookings Institute with his thundering Fidel Castro impersonation:
"Between 2000 and 2007 – a period of solid aggregate economic growth – the typical working-age household saw their income decline by nearly $2000. The decline in middle-class incomes even as the incomes of the top 1% skyrocketed has a number of causes, but one of them is surely rising asset prices and the fact that financial sector profits exploded to the point to where they represented 40% of all corporate profits in 2006.Confidence today will be enhanced if we put measures in place that assure that the coming expansion will be more sustainable and fair in the distribution of benefits than its predecessor."
Larry Summers carrying-on about "distribution of benefits"? Huh? So how does the Redistributionist-in-Chief feel about stimulus now? Here's a clip from Thursday's Wall Street Journal:
"The White House is lukewarm about proposals by congressional Democrats to introduce broad legislation to create jobs, instead favoring targeted measures that would be less likely to inflate the deficit, administration officials said. “Mr. Obama is keen to avoid any measures suggestive of a second, big-ticket stimulus. With about half of the February stimulus spending spoken for, the measure has created about 640,000 jobs, fewer than the number of jobs lost in January alone.
"There is no discussion of a package like a second stimulus, but we are working closely with Congress and consulting with outside experts to determine the right policies and the right steps," said White House deputy press secretary Jennifer Psaki. ("Weighing Jobs and Deficits", Elizabeth Williamson, Wall Street Journal)
Apparently, Summers has had time to rethink his populism and do a 180. Team Obama plans to create jobs by initiating tax credits and lending to small businesses. Sound familiar? In other words, the only way that millions of dejected workers will get any relief is if private industry can be enriched in the process. That's why "there is no discussion of a second stimulus." Because Summers is an industry rep who primary task is to ensure the smooth transfer of public wealth to corporate plutocrats. He even opposed the extension of unemployment benefits believing that greater hardship would push wages down even further.
Indeed, from Summer’s point of view, the America Rescue and Recovery Act has worked out just dandy. The unions are getting walloped, 8 million people are out of work, the labor market is in the worst shape it's been since the Great Depression, and the blood-flow of stimulus is about to get choked-off sometime in the next two quarters. Hey, it's morning in America! But, as we noted earlier, Summers is a good economist, so maybe there is an economic reason for his opposition to more stimulus. Could it have to do with the output gap?
Since Lehman Bros collapsed, the output gap (which is the difference between an economy’s actual output and its potential output) has been at record lows. That means that there is not sufficient demand to take up the slack in the economy. The only way to resolve that problem (when the Fed is in a liquidity trap and consumers are slashing spending) is to get money into the hands of people who will spend it. That means more government spending, thus, more stimulus. But how much more?
Here's economist Robert Skidelsky with an answer:
"But how large must such a stimulus be? The United States Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that American output will be roughly 7% below its potential in the next two years, making this the worst recession since World War II. American unemployment is projected to peak at 9.4% towards the end of 2009 or the beginning of 2010, and is expected to remain above 7% at least until the end of 2011.
“The US government has pledged $787 billion in economic stimulus, or about 7% of GDP. Superficially this looks about right to close the output gap – if it is spent this year . But it is in fact a three year-program. Some $584 billion is allocated for 2009-2010, leaving perhaps $300 billion of extra money for this year. Even so, it is not clear how much of that will be spent.
“ ....A double round of stimulus packages is needed to counteract the real prospect of a double-dip recession. “The time to start worrying about inflation is when the recovery is entrenched. To pay back the debt without strain, we need a booming economy. Talk of government spending cuts is premature. ‘A boom not a slump is the right time for austerity at the Treasury’ said Keynes. He was right." ("Is Stimulus Still Necessary?" Robert Skidelsky. Project Syndicate)
Surely, Summers made the same calculations as Skidelsky, but decided to go with a smaller stimulus package for political reasons. Fair enough. He was probably afraid that a larger bill wouldn't get through congress. That's reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that more stimulus is needed now. The White House should be preparing itself for a major public relations campaign. But there's no PR campaign on the drawing board at all; just more blabber about cutting deficits and reducing long-term government spending. (nb...an attack on Social Security) So as soon as this stimulus-injection wears off, the economy will slip into a coma once again. Here's Paul Krugman breaking it all down:
"Second estimate of third-quarter GDP out; growth rate marked down to 2.8%. This is really quite grim. At this growth rate it’s far from clear that we’re doing anything to reduce the output gap — the gap between what the economy could produce and what it’s actually producing. Correspondingly, there’s no reason now for even a bit of optimism on unemployment.
When the 3.5% advance number came out, I took to warning people that even if the economy continued to grow at that rate, we wouldn’t see anything like full employment until late in Sarah Palin’s second term. Given the latest number, the date at which we can expect to see a return to full employment is … never.
And that’s if growth continues at this rate. The odds are good that growth will slow down next year: the stimulus has already had its peak effect on growth and will turn into a net drag in the second half, the inventory bounce — which was a major factor in 3rd quarter growth, such as it was — will fade out. Basically, we may be in a technical recovery, but we’re not recovering. (Paul Krugman, "Gee, that’s De Pressing" The Conscience of a Liberal, New York Times)
There's no recovery. Figure it out. Bank profits went up last quarter, but lending went down significantly. Now, that's a neat trick. How did they manage that? They did it with the money they're getting from the Fed. Bernanke has provided broken banks and other financial institutions with trillions of dollars that are being diverted into high-risk assets, carry trades (with the zero-rate dollar as the funding currency) and speculative derivatives bets. The same bubble that just blew up a year ago has been reflated thanks to Bernanke's largesse and gigantic re-leveraging. Main Street is in a Depression, but Wall Street is doing just fine.
Even so, there is no sign of inflation anywhere and the government is able to borrow capital at record low costs. Last week 3-month Treasuries went negative while the 2-year T-bill has fallen off a cliff. Why? Because Bernanke ended the guarantee on money markets so investors are fleeing to safety again. Ordinary retail investors who can't do bigtime cross-border currency transactions or High Frequency Trading, need a place to hide. Hence, USTs. They're forking over their money to Uncle Sam for under 1 percent interest. It's highway robbery. At the same time, consumer credit is shrinking, bank lending is down, and 1 out of 4 homeowners is upside-down. Money is not moving and the economy is on a ventilator. We need more stimulus.
But there won't be another round of stimulus because Summers and his sniveling companion Geithner won't allow it. They have other plans. Oh yeah, Wall Street and the banking Goliaths will still get as much monetary stimulus as they need (under the phony moniker of "quantitative easing", liquidity swaps, or excess reserves) But as for the working slob -- zilch.
Summers’ assignment is to bring the broader economy to its knees; to crush big labor by keeping unemployment high, to force state and local and governments to privatize more public assets and services, and to generate as much human misery as possible. In short, Summers is laying the groundwork for structural adjustment within the US, a policy which reflects his ongoing commitment to multinational corporations and neoliberalism. It's the shock doctrine redux. These people are monsters.
How Social Mood Trends Define Popular Culture
Studies of the stock market and of trends in popular attitudes support the premise that trends in aggregate stock prices directly reflect the mood and mood changes of investors collectively, and by extension, society at large. The stock market is the optimum place to study mood change because it is the only intersection of mass behavior that offers specific, detailed, and voluminous numerical data. It was with such data that R.N. Elliott discovered the Wave Principle, the analytical method which reveals that mass mood changes are natural, rhythmic and precise. The stock market is a literal drawing of how mass mood unfolds.
In the following two clips from The Socionomics Institute's documentary History's Hidden Engine,you'll see how extremes in popular cultural trends coincide with extremes in stock prices: they peak and trough coincidentally in their reflection of the popular mood. Regarding music, for example, Robert Prechter said "You can almost hear the Dow going up and down over the airwaves." In this three minute video montage, see how music trends from the Beatles to Jimi Hendrix to Britney Spears reveal a startling connection between pop culture and finance:
At the theaters, Disney released another adaptation of Charles Dickens's "A Christmas Carol" this year that many parents found too dark and scary for kids. Disney's iconic Mickey Mouse himself got an edgier makeover recently. What could be behind Disney's new marketing strategy? Successful Disney films and themes have more in common with horror movies and dark themes than you might think. This three minute clip from History's Hidden Engine explains that connection -- and why it's as relevant to stock markets and broad social trends as it is to movies:
Watch the full 90-minute documentary, History's Hidden Engine, online right now. In just 59 minutes and with the help of pop songs, news footage and cultural images, you'll see how social mood drives trends in movies, music, fashion, economics, politics, the media, and even the stock market.
Martin Armstong – Forced to Move to a High Security Prison to Silence Him?
Frankly, I cannot believe that I have to write the words that follow. I just learned that Martin Armstrong is being moved, possibly as early as Monday, from his current holding facility to a much higher security facility, MDC Brooklyn, which is similar to the facility he was in when he was in solitary confinement and where he was beaten nearly to death! This goes against the prison’s own rules and is against the law as he has two Habeas cases open in the Supreme Court.
Why would this be happening now with a little more than a year before he is eligible for parole? I and others contend that it is because of his recent writing activity and because of his recent interview with the New Yorker Magazine (The New Yorker - "The Secret Cycle…"), and also because there are now several media outlets requesting to do interviews with him – the prison simply does not want, for whatever reason, the access that we have been enjoying lately to continue. I spoke directly to Martin’s younger sister, Nancy, and this is her opinion as well. She is very upset over this move as she, “fears that he may not make it out.” She claims that Martin is very much afraid of this move and for good reason…
First let’s review the facts… whatever you believe about his innocence or guilt or innocence of any crime, the facts are that he was never put on trial for any crime. He was held in contempt of court for not producing what the judge ordered him to produce, something which he claims he didn’t have. He was placed in MDC Manhattan and was basically TORTURED. According to Nancy, he was locked in solitary confinement for almost the entire duration, suffering days on end and at times was intentionally awaken every hour or so all night long, night after night, in an attempt to get him to sign a confession. He was repeatedly told that he would not get the chance to see his 91 year old mother alive again if he did not sign the confession. This took place off and on for SEVEN YEARS. Then one day a huge convict, “a known homicidal maniac” named George, was locked in his cell with him where he proceeded to beat and strangle him until he thought he was dead. Later, according to Armstrong, a fellow inmate stated that the guards watched the beating and refused to open the door to stop it. He lost most of his teeth, and now, over two years later is still missing them because the prison system only has one dentist for over 5,000 inmates. He suffered a detached retina, broken ribs and other internal injuries that left him in intensive care.
They offered him a plea agreement to TIME SERVED if he would plead guilty and after 7 years, he could take no more and agreed, obviously under heavy duress. However, after pleading guilty, the judge instead of living up to the plea agreement sentenced him to the maximum amount allowable and he is now not scheduled for release until September of 2011, first eligible for parole in March 2011. His current location is at Ft. Dix, New Jersey where he is only 20 minutes from his mother and sister, a relatively safe facility. His sister takes his infirmed mother to visit him once a week, but she will not be able to make the journey into Manhattan. He is now under great stress as he believes he may not survive while inside the new location.
Inside this facility, I am told, he will be basically strip searched with nearly every movement, and he is not granted some of the “privileges” that he currently has access to, thus producing his work will be impaired, if not eliminated all together.
The question is WHY would they break their own rules and the law to move him now?
For a refresher, Habeas Corpus is defined as follows: “Habeas corpus (Latin: You (shall) have the body) is a legal action, or writ, through which a person can seek relief from their unlawful detention or that of another person. It protects individuals from harming themselves or from being harmed by the judicial system.”
Borrowers who walk away from their mortgage obligations face serious consequences," including severely depressed credit scores for extended periods, said Brian Faith of Fannie Mae. In addition, he said, "there's a moral dimension to this as homeowners who simply abandon their homes contribute to the destabilization of their neighborhood and community."
Oh, that's rich. A Fannie Mae 'official' lecturing underwater homeowners about their moral obligation to society.
california womanl said...
Ilargi or Stoneleigh
What do you think of his comment - Three old dollars to be traded for 1 new dollar. If you agree, when do you think this would occur, and how can we protect ourselves?
Ilargi
"And who in Abu Dhabi (which is where the money will have to come from) is willing to throw their cash into a bottomless pit?"
The operational word is "their." They don't have a pseudo-democracy where they can throw OPM into the black hole. Consequently.......so long suckers; been nice to know ya!
∞ Food Stamp Usage Across the Country Interactive map
Play with it, roll your cursor over each county to get stats. Squint your eyes to 'grok' the larger patterns, to damn bad it has no animated features to show trends over time to give that cool 'pandemic' effect to dynamic hunger stats.
Food stamps are a canary in the mine shaft if you ask me. As they rise by county, the economy sinks in those counties.
IMO, counties by the way are closer to 'localization units' than states (or nations)
∞ "Halliburton is opening its corporate headquarters in Dubai while maintaining a corporate office in Houston"
Remember back in March how Darth Cheney's Death Star corporate shell moved it's extortion racket to Dubai and left a store front open in Houston? Sweet aye.
∞ A small note on the 'Keeping Derivatives in the Dark' article. Well, I've always thought of the dark global unregulated derivative's market as a Monster that is larger than all the wealth of the planet combined. It's the Rosemary's Baby of the Shadow Banking Mafia, it's 'love child' of compounding interest, and it's still growing. It aspires to Infinite Wealth, it will deliver widespread Death.
john patrick said...
I remember I&S saying "Cash will be king" in the 40 ways... I wonder how this will be affected if we have a currency conversion? Or, will the conversion really occur?
I've spent the last year prepping (knowing I'll be sharing with girlfriend/kids/family) and one option I've pondered is purchasing a used RV for cash (park it on friends/family property) rather than continue to pay rent. But my concern is, taxes, insurance, and fuel could go through the roof. So perhaps it's better to just double-up on a current rental situation, i.e. have everyone live under one roof.
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Mish did a long analysis in October on how the banking industry was using the "moral issue" to inhibit people from acting in their own best interests. Of course the bankers have shown morals that would embarrass a wolverine.
I don't have the link but I saved the article to my hard drive. It is titled, Financial Logic of Walking Away ." Worth as careful read. It also analyses real estate bubbles, and indicates that if the selling price of a house is well over 16 times the annual rental, then you are in a bubble. The asking sales price right now of the house that I am renting in Costa Rica is 100 times the annual rent. Is there a message there?
Our local food bank in Central Texas is planning on a 100% increase in families for Christmas food needs. We have folks who buy up to 50 loaves of day old bread and distribute those with other limited food resources to 50 plus families once a week in less than 4hours. We are also see many first time families that are in need of just the basics to get by. John
Dear great-aunt Josephine,
In answer to your question, which is most moral... to be a paid or an unpaid whore?
Your grand-niece,
another top flight intro!
Mortgage mods are a zero, who could have seen that??
Reality is upon us, but I expect another push up before that happens.
I guess that all depends if they feel it's a bottomless pit. After all isn't it the underlying presumption that growth will resume?
ric2 said...
Actually, I'd like to hear Stoneleigh's take on the entire Chapman excerpt.
It seems like some of the things he claims will happen because of Fed action are actually already happening or will happen due to deflation, and you've already described them:
-further restriction on commercial lending by TARP recipient banks without substantial collateral (commercial lending is already dead, right, so are any further "restrictions" even required?)
-stock market going into a tailspin without a second $400-800 billion stimulus (it's poised to drop and there is no money for a second stimulus)
-2000+ banks in trouble
-FDIC collapse
I know anything can happen, but how realistic is to believe that the Fed has the choice to "opt for letting the system run into hyperinflation" with complete currency devaluation and replacement by the end of next year? (Maybe Chapman is telling us this last bit about hyperinflation because he wants to sell us some gold or have us buy Canadian or Swiss Treasuries through one of his brokers?)
BTW, would love to see VK become a regular front-page contributor. His generation will be coming of age as young adults in these tragic and traumatic times, and it will be on their shoulders to do most of the work in creating workable and just communities no matter where they may be in the world. His thoughts matter, and for being such a young man, he sure is keen with words and ideas.
KLR said...
Stuart Staniford, of Oil Drum fame, is posting once again at his Early Warning blog. One of the sharpest knives in the drawer over there, glad to see him up and at it once more.
Joseph j7uy5 said...
Referring to the photo in the introduction: there were people leaving dirt farms in Arkansas for dirt farms in the lower Rio Grande valley. They were going to pick cotton. I noticed this because that is where I live. (I can see the Rio Grande cotton fields from my porch!) Such a movement strikes me as random. What difference does it make, a cotton field is a cotton field.
I wonder how much of the maneuvering we see is really just random movement. Not kicking the can down the road, rather kicking it in a circle, hoping that things get better in the meantime. Maybe someone bails out Dubai, but it is just moving money in a circle. Perhaps the hope is that the propaganda can keep people going.
We'll see positive spin on the Black Friday numbers. Up 0.5%. But the population of the USA has increased ~0.9% since last year. We need at least that much growth, just to stay even. Anything less, you have more people laying claim to a smaller pie. Spin it any way you want, even the best numbers show that things are getting worse.
I am thinking about donating some nut trees to the local food bank. They already have a large vegetable garden, but no renewable source of good protein. Somebody, somewhere, has to actually produce something, and that would increase the amount of food available. Not just move it from one place to another.
Fascinating take by VK, although this sentence in (8.) needs an edit:
"...banks collapse and government revenue and cost of servicing debt soars."
Nope, it's :"...banks and government revenue collapse and cost of servicing debt soars."
I agree that it's in the elites' best interest to deflate, not inflate, but history holds that governments lack the will and/or controls to prevent a run at the printing presses. We can argue whether it'll succeed, but IMO monetization of the debt is the most likely avenue for the government to pursue.
Most of what Chapman is saying is basically assigning specific dates and numbers to what I&S have been predicting for a year.
The one thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why would they "devalue" the dollar to one third, and what exactly does that mean? When we were on the gold standard and FDR devalued the dollar from $20 per troy ounce to 35, at least one could understand what that meant. But with a fiat currency, what exactly would be issuing a new dollar for three old dollars do other than create a huge amount of confusion. Would debts still have to be paid back in the old dollar amount making it three times as hard? That would be time for Snuffy to lock and load :-) Can someone explain this to me? As Vinnie Barbarino would say, "I'm so confused!"
I mean, I can understand if with a currency like here in Costa Rica, where years of inflation have moved it to over 500 to the USD, that a government might, say, want to reissue a currency divided by 100 just to make the math easier. But other than keeping numbers smaller and reasonable, what is the point?
Mad Max is saying that there is global warfare going on right now between Gollum Sucks and the Peoples Republic of China, and that is the heart of trying to understand the current moves going on in the world markets. China allowing domestic companies to default on Gollum's fraudulent derivatives could be a wooden stake through its heart. Hmmmm....
Asian stock indices up 2.5 to 3% in Monday morning trading. The pundits saying the the Doobie default is overblown.
Ahh, it's fixed now, I see.
Y'all might be interested with the happenings here in Beaverton OR, and how even the most fascist of bedfellows sometimes have to yield to the electorate.
Hank Paulson's son Merritt owns the local AAA baseball team ("Beavers"), and he wants a new stadium, courtesy of the taxpayers. All the hype and propaganda couldn't distract the homeowners from the fact that they'd be paying tens of millions of dollars in increased property taxes as a gift to Merritt Paulson to help his dream materialize.
The stories I read showed at least 15:1 opposition to the stadium plans, 20:1 is more like it, but the Beaverton mayor, one Denny Doyle, was adamant that the Council could and should decide without interference from the voters. Eventually a couple members of the city council got the message that their jobs were on the line, so they backed away, telling the mayor that they supported a referendum.
And that was it! The plutocrats and their servile shills folded their tents and left overnight, refusing to suffer the kind of public humiliation of an overwhelming loss. It's so thoroughly vanished as an issue that no one is left to ask the bigger question about hijacking the public trust.
Local action = small victories.
snuffy said...
I will keep track of what happens to that ass hat Doyle.Once a tool ,always a tool.
Chapman has had some startling insider calls...I only hope he is dead wrong on this one...
That little bit from l.summers has got me boiling.His advice will lead to more harm for the people of America than anything i can think of .He is the tool here...lent to O-man from the- powers-that-be to make sure he makes the "right" decisions.
That fat piece of dogmeat should have to go out and find a job...a real job..where he was required to produce a product and sell it..
Before he decided what the un-employed "need"
[long scream]
If o-man is taking this guy seriously,and it appears he is,this is why P.Volker is on the shelf,and all the shit is still going on...no controls on wall sreet,and kick the American worker down to third world standard...
[more screams]
If they play some kind of funny games with the currency....that WILL blow the system up.
If the Chinese have decided to kill gold-in-sacks...I put my money on the Chinese.They know that it has taken over the us .gov now...soooo if they kill it...they cut the head off the good old USA...
And they Chinese play for keeps,and have forgotten more about the subtleties of low-level warfare than those boyos at G.S.will ever know.
Time for sleep...no dreams please.
Ps...Stoneleigh,I would love to meet you if possible out here on the left coast....I am sure that those of us TAEs in the Portland area could show you a good time[big grin]
barnaby33 said...
Your comment about elites benefiting more from deflation flies in the face of 80+ years of history.
Maybe you need a clearer definition of Elites, because in inflation, those who stand closest to the printing press win, that would be my definition of elites.
In deflation everyone loses except savers. Who says the elites are savers any more than the work-a-day slobs? They may have more savings in absolute terms, but in their own minds, most feel just as vulnerable to loss as J6P.
Do you folks buy into Bob Chapmans illuminati discourse?
MikeB said...
The documentary about the stock market and social mood is shockingly bad. Are we to assume this site subscribes to the pseudo-science presented in the film?
The fallacy of filtering or "observational selection" and blatant cognitive bias are in full regalia here.
From Robert Carroll's "Skeptic's Dictionary":
A chartist looks for patterns in charts, patterns he believes are predictive. Is there any scientific evidence that there are some truly predictive patterns in stock price charts? No, but there is scientific evidence that chartists see patterns in random processes.
This stuff is just Jesus on Toast all over again.
Skeptic's Dictionary
Very disappointing to see it here.
El G - "Mad Max is saying that there is global warfare going on right now between Gollum Sucks and the Peoples Republic of China..."
And guess who is the most criminal, elitist, and least democratic. And guess who I hope emerges. The "eternal growth" capitalists are taking us all down the road to hell. Some kind of brakes have to be applied, from whatever source!
Snuffy,
I'm not sure what would be possible, but I'll look into it. Wiki tells me that Portland is 5-6 hours south of Vancouver.
From the Evans-Pritchard article
" Paradoxically, Europe's bank problems help explain why the euro has risen to a 15-month high of $1.51 against the dollar. Hans Redeker from BNP Paribas said distressed banks are having to sell assets overseas and repatriate the money to shore up their capital base, pushing the euro towards the pain barrier for many European exporters."
Nothing is what it appears to be in these markets. And when will the US banks like Citi have to sell off overseas assets and set up a counter-flow.
Through Denniger;
http://tinyurl.com/yg7f2h2
Reuters post of an FT leak of FSB and central bankers list of world financial corporations viewed as TBTF. Karl made the interesting point that Citi and WF were not on the list.
Never heard of Chapman before but don't recall that he mentioned the illuminati. I have already questioned the dollar devaluation thing. Would you care to be more specific on others issues that the collective unconscious of this site might " buy?"
I see that Wall Street is opening positive, lifting Europe with it. And I think perhaps investors haven't been paying attention. Yet.
What I think the UAE central bank, Abu Dhabi and Dubai have all said is that they'll take care of their own, and that's where the line is drawn.
Dubai rejects guarantee for Dubai World
The government of Dubai on Monday said it would not guarantee the debt of Dubai World as it sought to clarify comments made last week by the state-owned entity that sent shockwaves through global markets.
In its first public comments since the crisis erupted over the liabilities of its public companies, Dubai’s department of finance on Monday outlined its policy towards the outstanding loans, which total $59bn.
Abdulrahman al-Saleh, director general of Dubai’s department of finance, said in an interview with Dubai TV that creditors had to take responsibility for their own lending decisions and differentiate between advances to companies and the state. He also said global markets had overreacted to the news.
Mr Saleh admitted that creditors of Dubai World, which owns DP World, the ports operator, and Nakheel, the property investment company, would be affected in the short-term but claimed there would be long-term benefits as the government restructured the business.
[..] Nakheel, the company at the centre of Dubai’s financial woes, on Monday asked for all three of its sharia-compliant bonds worth $5.25bn to be suspended from trade “until it is in a position to fully inform the market”.
Sentiment was not helped by a note from EFG-Hermes, a local investment bank, which said that the estimates of Dubai’s $80bn debt burden, consisting of bonds and syndicated loans, could rise to $120bn-$150 billion if bilateral loans and other missing information [sic] were included.
Is Chapman anticipating hyperinflation too soon? Shouldn't we move into hard goods before then? If I remember correctly, you have said that hyperinflation will come not earlier than two years from now, after deflation runs its course.
Oh my, we're in trouble if by the end of 2010 three Franklins will equal one!
Great contribution! Welcome! :)
Could you respond to my post on today's comment section on the Chapman video and the "dollar devaluation" part. If it is just to absurd to deal with, could you mention that in a sentence or two.
Click the link, you'll see the illuminists talk. Chapman is in a strange right side funk. But he was also for years one of the world's biggest gold and silver brokers. He may be a nut, but he's not a fool.
And I don't think he says what he does to make money, he's too old, well-off, that sort of thing.
NB: some "nice" listening material here.
Oh bloody lord, I saw this CBC headline and I burst out laughing, quite inappropriately, in my office:
0.1% GDP growth signals recession's end
No, Chapman, is way off on his hyperinflation assertion. And if anyone thinks the USD can simply be replaced by another currency in an attempt to get out of debt, de facto as US sovereign default, try to see things from a less US centric point of view. What would keep Japan and the EU from doing the same thing? And if they all do it, what will be the net result?
Mish has an excellent, long rant against Uncle Ben this morning, worth a read. Nothing new, but he ties it together.
El G and others,
While I agree with much of what Chapman said, I don't agree with his hyperinflation and dollar devaluation assertion. I agree that liquidity will be in short supply and everyone will be looking for it. I agree that getting loans will be extremely difficult and expensive, with collateral requirements rising dramatically as Chapman says, and also much higher interest rates, which he doesn't explore. I also agree that commercial real estate will implode and that muni bonds will be wallpaper.
We should see much larger credit spreads, as riskier bonds crash, while short term treasuries see high demand and low (or even moderately negative) interest rates on a fight to safety. I would also expect a sharp divergence between long and short term rates, even for government debt.
While I agree that the banking cabal would like to see a single global currency and more central control at a global level, I don't think it will happen. The trajectory they have been on is leading in that direction, but we are at or near a trend reversal. The destructive force of deflation will make further 'progress' in that regard impossible IMO. Deflation comes with fragmentation, not consolidation.
Likewise, Chapman's forecasts for hyperinflation and dollar devaluation are extrapolations of the rising trend we have experienced since March. The imminent/occurring trend reversal will change that view.
Two contiguous article headlines on Bloomberg this morning:
U.S. Stocks Gain as U.A.E. Backs Banks, Business Activity Rises
By Mary Childs
Dubai World’s Debt Not Guaranteed by Government (Update2)
By Zahraa Alkhalisi and Ayesha Daya
I would like the following article headline in Bloomberg:
U.S. Stocks Gain as Most Pension Fund Managers Had Sex Over the Long Holiday Weekend
by El Gallinazo
Well, it's probably me, but I see that sort of writing by Mish as nothing more than pretentious and utterly futile humbug.
@ Stoneleigh
Re. : trip west coast
Save yourself a lot of hassle ... use Abbotsford International Airport (YXX).
Schedule permitting ... come early to met with readers of TAE.
Logistics can be coordinated for Seattle, Portland area readers.
MikeB,
In order to judge Prechter's work, you really need to see/read more of it. The whole documentary History's Hidden Engine is available free online. Snippets do not do it justice. His books also flesh out the concepts to a much greater extent.
Snippets tend to be dismissed facile, but this theory is anything but that. Prechter is not saying that popular music, or hemlines, or film genres etc, drive markets. What he is saying is that there are many manifestations of social mood and they all move together as they have a common driver. Markets are one such phenomenon, as are many disparate cultural trends.
There are optimistic behaviours and pessimistic behaviours which occur in clusters. Optimistic people buy stocks and becomes less risk averse, they start businesses, they have more children in anticipation of good times ahead, they wear bright colours (and show more skin), they listen to cheerful music, they like films with happy endings, they tend to identify with strong heros in a black and white fashion, they behave in a more socially inclusive manner, they build alliances with diverse people, they favour peace etc etc.
In contrast, pessimistic people do the opposite. They become much more risk averse, they sell stocks, do not start businesses, wear sombre colours (and cover up), have fewer children, listen to sad/angry music, watch angry/horrific films, identify with anti-heros, see the world in shades of grey, become socially exclusive/insular/xenophobic, favour aggressive behaviour internationally, vote for populist extremists etc etc.
Just watch as we pass the trend reversal and move into a new pessimistic phase. One can predict a lot about groups of people merely by knowing whether they are collectively optimistic or pessimistic, and what degree of trend one is looking at. As the new trends pick up momentum, we are going to see a side of people that we are not used to, and it will be profoundly disturbing.
Re skunk smell (yesterday)
Sorry to perhaps alarm you unnecessarily, but pesticide drift can smell like skunk, especially when the smell awakens you in early morning because of an open window. Are there commercial farms nearby that might be applying pesticide overnight? If so, it's probably methyl bromide.
I live downwind from corporate farms, around 2 or 3 miles away and beyond. The smell of methyl bromide in my area has been confused by residents as "skunk smell" or "swamp gas", but indeed, it is methyl bromide, applied to fields before planting. The smell is a bitter-sweet caustic smell that lingers until the sun breaks it down. We haven't slept with open windows for the last 13 years because one cannot predict when the corporate farms will use it.
To our dismay, my husband and I smelled methyl bromide while visiting Craftsbury, Vermont last June. Apparently, dairy farmers apply methyl bromide to fields before planting corn. Unless you are surrounded by organic farms for miles around, most rural areas in the USA (and worldwide) are polluted by the use of pesticides and herbicides.
So a lot of the talk here is about what wealthy people can do? Selling stocks, insurance policies, etc. But what about little guys? What about people with say $5,000 to play with? While that is nothing compared to a lot of people, I debate myself on what I should do with that money. Do I finish paying off my credit card debt? Do I finish paying off my back tax debt? (About $3000 each) Or do I save it and prepare?
Many people of little means see what is happening but we feel that there is little that we can do. What can we do?
I am wondering if one should include "appreciation of dark/black humor" (what a former writing teacher of mine called "the laughter of the damned") in the list of behaviors of pessimistic people. Wasn't there some gruesome stories in Turnbull's account of the Ik where people found great amusement in the miseries of their fellow man?
Along those lines, I found Kunstler's latest to be chock full of laugh-out-loud dark humor. (He also claims he is a "deflationist.")
Should I be worried that I found his latest to be so funny?
It's not just you, mate. I think Mish's fame, such as it is, has gone to his head. You'd think the knock-back his anti-Paulson bailout faxing campaign got would have shown him the futility of "dialogue" with TPTB, but he keeps on with the imaginary conversations (i.e. "monologues with the voices inside his head")...
As for music and economic conditions, remember that the music community is so diverse that it's illusory to link what's popular to what's going on. Didn't hear much country/rap/folk/classical etc. used for those examples. What I heard was the stuff that got played on radio, which is what the corporate music forces were foisting on the listeners. What's "popular" is what the record biz WANTS to be popular. It's more a reflection of THEIR mood than ours. With the fragmented, downloadable music world now, though, it's harder for the biz to set the tone, and the tune.
Re: alternatives sources of skunky smell -- strong (un-smoked) marijuana can have a whiff like that too. You got any Rastas in the 'hood, ElG?
Jim Kunstler is a faithful TAE fan and follower. And we may therefore have helped him find these poignant words:
"Frankly, I have no idea whether the Dubai fiasco will send seismic ripples thundering through a global banking establishment that is already crippled in more ways than you can count.
But it does remind those in thrall to the dazzlement of "green shoots" that debt comes a'creeping, and runs so far, deep, and wide through the broken system of mutual assurances constituting international finance, that Ben Bernanke and his counterparts in central banks 'round the world could drop helicopter loads of paper cash on every rooftop, intersection, parking lot, field, forest, and camel raceway and never make a dent in the fatal web of false obligations we have woven for ourselves."
Debt is the hangman's noose during deflation. Many jobs will disappear, so you shouldn't count too much on continuing pay, certainly not at the present level.
Still, there is also something to be said for investing in what can make you less dependent on the current system, certainly when it comes to food. It's a bit of a toss-up, the choices depend on your preferences, your appetite for risk and of course your present situation.
sv koho said...
Item #10 of VK: The statement is hard to follow. If you lose 50% of your net worth and assets deflate 80%, you up 30%? Whaaaat?! Let's see.Say you have $2 Mil in your mattress. Your net worth is 100% in cash and you hold no debt and rent a container and walk to a soup kitchen. In this scenario you still have $2 million and you can now go out and buy, what? Citi stock for $1/share? Or perhaps Krugerrands? Or perhaps a McMansion in the burbs for an 80% discount? These models do not reflect reality because some percent of your net worth would be tied up in asset classes which lost 80% so saying you are in effect up 30% after you have lost 50% when asset classes have lost 80% is a little hard to follow. Am I missing something?
John Hemingway said...
Ciao Stonleigh!
You know, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't recall you wearing somber clothing the last time we met in Montreal;-)
In the first years of the 21st century, a third world war broke out. Those of us who survived knew that man could never survive a fourth, that our own volatile natures could simply no longer be risked.
And so we have created a new arm of the law; the graviton cleric, whose sole task it is to seek out and eradicate the true source of man's inhumanity to man; his ability to leverage beyond 5:1.
At 10:12 AM El G asks:
'Would you care to be more specific on others issues that the collective unconscious of this site might " buy?"'
Not really, the body of the man's youtube work sorta speaks for itself. You know, the RNB, Alex Jones Prison Planet circuit.
No need to get snitty m8. Seeing as how I refer practically everyone I care for to this site, (and then some) I thought the question was legit.
One needs learn to distinguish between an affirmation and an honest inqiry.
sv koho,
"A little hard to follow?" You can say that again. It makes me think of Groucho:
"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know. "
VK's point, which quotes me, stands of course. If your net worth falls 50%, it makes no difference whether some of it is tied up in 80% losing assets, or whether you parked it on the moon. 50% is 50%. Keep it simple.
If the municipal bond market collapses, wouldn't that be hyperdeflationary, in that available credit streams to compensate for missing tax revenues would be instantly cut off, reducing municipal spending to naught?
Several more years of deflation should cause the amount of goods and services in circulation to strongly decrease as a function of decreased moneys in circulation, perhaps making eventual inflation easier by removal of most purchaseable physical goods from circulation more quickly than currency credits can be absorbed, whereby tensile stresses between money and purchaseables could be altered. Increasing price levels by actual lethal scarcity is not inflation as such, but close enough.
Sunffy- "If they play some kind of funny games with the currency....that WILL blow the system up."
As usual, you're just a crazy optimist. :-)
The system HAS BEEN blown up. No kidding, really- it's over.
It's just that we're still only in the first twenty nanoseconds after the explosion. People are looking around, and saying, "hey, we can fix this! Just stuff it all back in that little bomb thingy!"
You really can't stuff a Hellfire missile explosion back inside the original container; no matter how much people want to- or who is promising they can. It'll be way way more obvious in 6 months (i.e. the next 10 nanoseconds)
Yeah, I know, hard to get used to. But I do think that's truly the case. There are no fixes.
Anastasia: "I guess that all depends if they feel it's a bottomless pit. After all isn't it the underlying presumption that growth will resume?"
Not if you're culturally an Arab. Really. I wouldn't presume to say what their expectations are at this point; but I do know they truly do not have the same starting points in life expectations. They've been following the Western Rationale for a couple decades- and it's just failed- hugely.
If I were them, I'd go right back to Arab cultural basics- which generally are far more "steady state" than "growth".
ric2- "I am wondering if one should include "appreciation of dark/black humor" (what a former writing teacher of mine called "the laughter of the damned") in the list of behaviors of pessimistic people."
The Germans call it "Galgenhumor" - "gallows humor".
It's pretty definitely a symptom of despair- nothing left to do but laugh; no power to do anything else.
@whut said...
I posted what I know about Robert Chapman on TheOilDrum
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6004#comment-564995
Be suspicious of this guy is all I can say.
TechGuy said...
My Comments on todays text:
"10. The elites would prefer an outcome whereby there is massive deflation; as Ilargi once mentioned, if you lose 50% of your net worth but asset prices fall 80%, you're up 30%!"
This assesment is dead wrong. The elites have most of their wealth in assets not cash. They own businesses, stocks, and other assets that will collapse in value if deflation happpens. The elites want price inflation not deflation.
Hyper-inflation is inevitable:
1. The Fed must keep rates very low because of interest rate swaps. Consider that the average prime 15/20/30/40 mortgage was issue with a rate below 6.5% during the bubble years. If short term rates rise, virtually every lender will go broke since they need the rates to remain well below the mortgage rates. Even today, more loans are being issued at low rates so the problem continues to be piled on.
2. The gov't is broke and there is a tsunami of entitlements that are about to soar. The gov't has been relying on the Social Security surplus for 40 years and it still wasn't able to ever balance its budget. How does anyone expect the gov't to pay entitlements once the outlays been to soar in a few years. Congress and the administration isn't going to abandon their biggest voting block by reneging on their entitlement promises. Virtually every politican has promised bigger and better entitlements to buy voters.
3. Zimbabwe and Weimar had huge credit contractions. Nobody wanted to lend money to Zimabwe or Weimar. Even the local banks refused to loan out money except for very short term loans. The credit contraction accelerated inflation as the gov't was forced to print money to keep its doors open. Credit contraction does not equal deflation.
4. Japan is not the US. Its gov't debt is nearly 100% financied by its citizens and it has a very strong export market to support its debt. The US is dependant foriegners for 60% of its debt and has been running trade deficits for more than 30 years.
5. Chapman is an idiot. He's been making all sorts of predictions for 20 years and the majority have been proven to be dead wrong. Every year Chapman and Sinclair have predicted a total economic meltdown for every year, going back to 1997. In 1997 they said the stock market was going to crash in 1998 and gold was going to soar past $1000 by the end of 1998. It taken more than 10 years since that predict.If you keep making the same prediction forever they will eventually be right, just as a broken analog clock displays the correct time twice a day. Chapman and Sinclair are nothing more than broken clocks!
So far every single person that has provided a date when the economy will collapse has been dead wrong. The deflationist said in Dec 2008 that interest rates would be in double digits but the fall of 2009. Well they are still at Zero. Jim Sinclair predicted that on October 29th, 2009 the Dollar was going to completely collapse causing Gold to soar over $5000. There is that Russia professor that said the US was going to break up by the end of 2009, Now hes saying its going to happen in 2010. Please stop listening and quoting to these people.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury"
I didn't think my question was snitty. After I asked, Stoneleigh came back and stated that many of his predictions are basically in line with TAE, with the major exception of a "new currency" and near term hyperinflation. And my original comments were highly skeptical of a new currency. And the vast bulk of TAEers are deflationistas. So I was just wondering what else you thought was beyond the pale.
Furthermore, as Stoneleigh indicated, what will happen and what the central banking cartels wish to happen are quite different. If you wish to disparage the recognition of the goals of these cartels, such as globalization and a one world currency with the term Illuminati ideas, well, you are welcome.
Back in my university chemistry days, I had to use methyl bromide all the time as a standard reagent (under a hood - it is nasty). So I sort of remember what it smells like and I don't think this is it. Also, farmers here are up with the sun, but this was before 3 am and we do not have "corporate" farms here, just small holders.
Also would doubt there is a pot of (Acapulco) gold here. There was no wind and I am hundreds of meters from other properties.
I just think it was a skunk that was spooked by some sort of big cat.
Thanks Illargi for the hilarious LOL quote from Groucho. And thanks to you and Stoneleigh for your feedback comments which are as witty as they are instructive.I( have never checked the comments section of TAE and I thus had no idea what I was missing. You folks have unusual names which give no clue to your gender and I do wish you would post a pic or two so I could post them on my desk alongside my wife and family pics. I just returned from outer Mexico where some of the houses have pictures of their favorite saints prominently displayed and I would like to do the same. Stoneleigh makes so much sense that I wonder if he/she? is a woman. I have become a fan of late of some women economists like Elizabeth Warren, Brooksley Born and Gretchen Morgenson. Do you think an extra X chromosome helps economists think straighter? I mentioned this on one of my blogs, incidentally. Thanks again for your good work and I will try to paypal you Canadians when I can afford it but if the greenback keeps tanking, it won't amount to much.
Tech Guy
If your analysis is correct, I think one's best bet is to buy assets now, leveraged as high as you can. I think for the average non-zillionaire, the best way to do this is to buy as much real estate as one can, and let the FHA give you an infinitely leveraged mortgage. So I assume, being a rational tech guy, that is what you are doing. Good luck!
TechGuy,
it doesn't matter what the elites want. Deflation cannot be avoided.
Kunstler understands why:
"[..] debt comes a'creeping, and runs so far, deep, and wide through the broken system of mutual assurances constituting international finance, that Ben Bernanke and his counterparts in central banks 'round the world could drop helicopter loads of paper cash on every rooftop, intersection, parking lot, field, forest, and camel raceway and never make a dent in the fatal web of false obligations we have woven for ourselves"
When that phase is done, sure, someone will start to print. But it's terribly naive to think we can opt to skip it. It doesn't matter what Congress or the White House want either, not as long as the US depends on international markets. They can all start to print, and then what have you got?
Zimbabwe and Weimar are invalid comparisons. It doesn't take that much to recognize that. Just find the differences.
And examples of people who have been wrong? We all know thousands of those. It's weak to grab a few at will and try to make your point using them. Though I will admit that in that light
"The deflationist said in Dec 2008..."
is hilarious. As is
"There is that Russia professor...".
They just don't prove anything. Sort of like another Groucho:
"I had a great evening. But this wasn't it."
One last thing, and I should really write more on it: in 2010, there will be huge increases in taxes and utility costs, among other things. People will claim this is inflation. It is not.
RE; Bob Chapman ... I realize Chapman may have made some "good calls" vut a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
James Grant called for a deprssion for thirty years before he surrendered and became a bull earlier this year.
Chapman is beneath your level, he simply doesn't know what he's talking about. The 'devaluation' rumor has been on the internet for a year. There is no evidence to support it, rather deflationary trends suggest that the opposite of a forced devaluation is taking place.
If the central banks and the Treasury are running a money laundering operation that allows participants to trade money- like securities for cash, the payout is in US dollars. It would be counterproductive to devalue those same dollars after the effort of setting up the trade.
Chapman should read Steve Keen. You should read more of Chapman's nonsense here
As you can see, the Illuminist program is going to come quicker than we anticipated. That in part is because they have had to expedite their program, due to exposure in the IF, other publications and especially via talk ratio and the Internet. There is no doubt we have the elitists on the run.
We are reaching the masses. On TalkStreamLive.com we were on the Rumor Mill this past week and out of 50 talk radio programs we were 5th behind, Rush (Limbaugh), (Sean) Hannity, Dr. Laura and we were tied with (Glenn) Beck. On the Sovereign Economist on Wednesday night we were 5th behind Beck and (Michael) Savage and ahead of Hannity. Both these programs are not well known and the Sovereign Economist is only about a month old. It shows you what you can do if you work hard enough at it.
(UNQUOTE)
Simply garbage ... Bill Bonner easily skewers Chapman by observing that those with (billions of) dollars are paying the Treasury to store them, presumably in secure closets.
He also comes up with the best line in the finance crisis so far:
But "hot money" from the feds has acted like spent nuclear fuel; every fish in the financial pond now seems to have two heads and a bag over both of them.
That's Chapman!
Bob Chapman says a bunch of things that I found interesting, some of which make sense, while others are off by miles. My political views didn't enter the picture. I'm sorry to see there's some among you who cannot make that distinction.
WHT:
Ilargi: "Bob Chapman thinks he knows what the next steps will be, and claims to have insider information to support his assertions."
"This is the same paranoid rhetoric that Kiley used."
There's nothing paranoid in what I said. But seeing that comment, I'm not sure about you.
Reading TAE:
I had a great evening and this was it."
Even the darkest humor has life in it. Lex Hixon writes on laughter:
Elie Wesel writes about these stories of Rebe Nachman: "Laughter occupies an astonishingly important place in his work. Here and there, one meets a man who laughs and does nothing else. Also a landscape that laughs." We encounter the same holy laughter in an account of kensho, or Enlightenment by a contemporary Japanese [Zen] practitioner: "At midnight I abruptly awakened. At first my mind was foggy, then suddenly that quotation flashed into my consciousness: "I came to realize clearly that Mind is no other than mountains, rivers, and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars.' ... Instantaneously, like surging waves, a tremendous delight welled up in me, a veritable hurricane of delight, as I laughed loudly and wildly: ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! The empty sky split in two, then opened it's enormous mouth and began to laugh uproariously: ha, ha, ha!" Rebbe Nochman and this contemporary Japanese Buddhist both encounter a landscape that laughs. There is no fundamental cultural separation: ecstasy is ecstasy, fire is fire."
re: West Coast Visit,
Amtrak is now running two trains a day between Portland and Vancouver. These are actual trains, running on steel rails, not horiffic bus links to Seattle.
I've actually found bus trips between Seattle and Vancouver to be quite pleasant, if a little slow at the border.
This is actually fun, and has something significant to say on the inflation/deflation discussion.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/30/news/economy/Christmas_price_index/index.htm
Don't know if you've followed, but this is an old standard news story- inflation index. This year- it's up - a total of 0.9%. Mostly because of the increase in the price of 5 gold rings. Almost everything else is down.
Except French Hens (I wonder if they made the mistake of pricing "poules"..." and Maids-a-Milking - and, um, I kinda wonder about that one, too.
El G said:
"The one thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why would they "devalue" the dollar to one third, and what exactly does that mean? When we were on the gold standard and FDR devalued the dollar from $20 per troy ounce to 35, at least one could understand what that meant. But with a fiat currency, what exactly would be issuing a new dollar for three old dollars do other than create a huge amount of confusion. Would debts still have to be paid back in the old dollar amount making it three times as hard? That would be time for Snuffy to lock and load :-) Can someone explain this to me? As Vinnie Barbarino would say, 'I'm so confused!'"
You've answered your own question, El G.
Consider, why doesn't the US just print the money it needs? Instead it prints bonds, which are bought by the Fed, which prints money, which it then hands back to the government to spend. Why the extra steps?
Maybe it's because they want you to be confused? Maybe it's because they want the entire process to seem so complicated and esoteric that only "true masters" of economics can grasp its intricacies? Maybe they just don't want you to see the fraud right in front of your face?
They've clearly never milked a cow.
@Greenpa
Checked primary source: 12 Days, $21,465.00 --a 1.8% increase. CNN must have had too much wassail.
The 2009 PNC Christmas Price Index
Shades of Amnesty International:
“Can you believe it? In the face of overwhelming pressure from YOU, the Department of Prisons backed down and agreed to keep Martin where he is! My understanding is that they just want to make the calling STOP!
Thank you to everyone who did, you may have just saved him from a terrible fate. I hope everyone realizes how RARE this event is. The Prison system is used to working in SECRET and they do stuff like this all the time according to my sources. Well, we shined a spot light on them and as soon as we did, they were forced to back down. This is a great example of the power that people possess and they don’t even know they possess it. It is, quite unfortunately, going to be very important that we use this power in the future again, and I’m sure that the next fight won’t be as easily won. That’s because the abuse in our prison system is a SYMPTOM of a much larger problem, that problem is rooted in our economy, in our money system, and in our failure to follow the rule of law.”
Martin Armstrong -WE WON!
Wyote said...
Mark Pittman Dies at 52.
Here was probably the greatest financial reporter of the new Robber Barron decade.
Pittman brought the FOIA suit against the Fed (pending in appeals), ripped the rating agencies for lies about risk,and exposed the slime of the sub-prime debacle among many, many other exposes.
Read the tribute on the above link. The man was exceptional among his colleagues and literally shamed the status of typical financial journalism today.
From the article: "At the time of his death, Pittman’s outgoing messages offered a link to a black-and-white photo of folk musician Woody Guthrie. Written on Guthrie’s guitar: “This machine kills fascists.”
I ask, how do you die at 52 if not by accident? - Wyote
Re.: Dubai
Cash flow to service the debt
Can the owners/mortgagees hand in their keys if they are underwater?
You can do that in most of USA but can it be done in other countries without reprecusions on the rest of your assets?
thethirdcoast said...
I'm just stopping by to share a fantastic visual timeline of the 1999 WTO protests assembled by the folks at the Seattle Times:
Visual timeline of WTO-related events in 1999
One may disagree with the protesters' methodology, but here in the year 2009 it is difficult to refute that they held an utterly prophetic vision of a corporate-controlled world.
Hey, another cool interactive chart. This type of chart has a slight edge on the old stodgy static data ones. Mousing around it almost feels like a video game or something, like Whac-A-Mole. The idea is to win back your health coverage with a high score.
American Workers are Rapidly Losing Health Care
The sucker rally in the stock market was a way to money launder TARP bailout dough from the government. The extra steps were there to confuse and facilitate this money laundering operation. Pump up the anemic asset market with big government 'loans' and the Banking Mafia's shenanigans, draw in the last 'honey pots' of real money like the pension funds and endowment funds and insurance funds, make a nice profit, and pay back your TARP handout and keep the Clean Money. Who's your Daddy now?
Like Mad Max said, it's been a war all along between savers and gamblers (production of useful stuff and savings) versus a F.I.R.E. ponzi and sociopathic gambling addicts.
Guess who won.
Too bad we (The Human Race) have already crossed the Rubicon on that particular decision. The die is cast, the event horizon is within view.
Fasten your seat belts.
UP DATE S&P
What would the market look like if this slide continued for 12 weeks, until 25 Dec 09?
- 2% per week
02 Oct 09 1024 - 20.48 = ACTUAL +4.51% = 1071 =
09 Oct 1003.52 - 20.07 =
16 Oct 983.45 - 19.67 =
30 Oct 944.50 - 18.89 = ACTUAL = 1033
06 Nov 925.61 - 18.51 =
27 Nov 871.17 - 17.42 = ACTUAL = 1,091.49
04 Dec 853.75 - 17.07 =
25 Dec 803.54
No Swans in sight.
From a 12-12-08 post by me:
Bernanke: “Just What-Is-It that Michael (Bloomberg) wants from us? The guy won’t reel in that bulldog Pittman and the whole FOIA thing is making us look like Cheney with Enron.”
Paulsen: Look, the Board is staying with the “trade secrets” and “Matter of confidence” positions. I think we’re safe. Just keep putting out the bank- run scare story. Even if it is actually true.
B: “ Sure, you’re right. But I just can’t figure Michael. Is he one of us or not?
P: “We’re keeping an eye on him. When the blossom opens the City will eat him alive anyway.
B: “ Dang Hank, you’re cold.
P: “Gotta be, Benny Boy, gotta be. The boat only holds so many.
This video may show the way it came down. (and is that Berry Goldwater?) - Wyote
Greenpa,
I have been named many things,over the years................................"wildly optimistic"
Has never EVER been one . Ever.
Than you for the best belly laugh I have had in awhile....
You are right,after all...there is a whole lot of WTF?going on right now as folks try and adjust to this newly forming economic reality.The reality I see day after day is that of squeezing every bit of fat out of a system.And a hell of a lot of muscle.We don't need all the people that are doing various "tasks" in the system.Stripping and minimizing everything and everyone in every organazation.
An optimist would say we will come out of this in another 6-10 months with a leaner,meaner tougher,trimmed down ,slimmed down economy.
I think the majority of the TAE folks will agree with me that we have one long-assed fall ahead before we start to level out
Chapman has been a read off and on for ten years.He is a doomer,and has called a impact point several times.That he has some political stances to the right of Gengis Khan is a given.I ignore the rants,and have seen the eco-101 messages.I have noticed many economic forecasters make a point of mixing politics into their analysis/evaluations.This is a mistake I believe.
Our gentle hosts have kept the vast majority of their presented material relatively free of of overt political "messages".What they have focused on is much deeper and to me more meaningful and succinct.That is,there exists class war in America,and it has resulted in the very profitable destruction of the middle class to the benefit of those in the top 2-5 % of this country who now control EVERYTHING.
Those who currently are in control of the vast amount of wealth of this country will do any and everything to ensure they remain in power,and control...after all,it took them almost 40 years to undo/corrupt the effects of the last great depression...the monetary and regulatory controls that allowed a comfortable middle class to form.
That this greatest of all thefts in history has now been found out,and the players identified,will mean they will not have peace 'till the day they die...due to the fact there will be those who have been destroyed by their actions.And who will remember.Everything.
I wish I could say that I know how this story ends.But if history is any guide,most of the truly guilty will escape justice,the innocent will suffer even more grievous harm than has already been their fate,and as }"the nanoseconds"} time goes by,we will slide with bumps,and bangs,and bruises to a hard and lonely place.
Being able to see clearly where we are is not a gift.The one-eyed man is not king in the land of the blind.
someone i know posted this on facebook:
"For anyone Interested the 30 year interest rate on a Home Mortgage is at 4.75% with no points. If you are interested please feel free to contact me in my office. Information on profile. Jumbo rates above $417,000 are 5.375%. ......Don't wait for them to go up!"
holy shit...
where do i begin in my response...
In today's NYTimes, I see a real gem of a quote about from that little worm Andrew Ross Sorkin:
"With the benefit of hindsight — and you didn’t need much — there were plenty of other signs back then that Dubai was building a financial mirage"
As Stoneleigh has suggested many times, if that worm Sorkin replaced the word "Dubai" with "the world financial system," then he'd be onto something. I guess we'll need to wait another few months.
I live in Minnesota and listened to Bob Chapman talk endlessly on $180 million dollar Ponzi schemer Pat Kiley's radio show for over a year. I just thought people would want to know this connection so they can make up their own minds. I suppose people can be paranoid when it comes down to their own money.
Please feel free to color me astounded that this piece questioning the benefit of the 401(k) scheme was prominently posted on a MSM website like Yahoo! Finance:
The Biggest Scam Ever
Sadly the article's average rating is two stars from 1129 users. I wonder if the people rating it poorly are deluded by their cultural programming, or shills for the programmers? Perhaps a mixture of both?
Wyote
Autopsies don't help much anyway. The pathologist who did the original JFK autopsy burned his original report almost immediately and rewrote it when he learned that one of the bullet holes was coming from the "wrong" direction.
I was just thinking on the eve of O-man's "war we can live with speech." We gotta wind down the military and bases to save money, but we're going to have this big problem coming up by starving, but armed and pissed off people in the USA acting in a disorderly fashion. Sure we can beef up NORTHCOM to deal with it. But there could be a problem with the soldiers being told to shoot their friends and relatives and it's also bad for the deficit.
So here is my solution. Why don't we get countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Korea to build military bases in the USA at their own expense and bring in their crack anti-insurgency elite troops. Helps the budget; improves the balance of payment and the economy with the soldiers working up a tab at US business; and solves the shooting relatives problem.
President Correa of Ecuador just last year offered to renew the lease of the giant US base in his country if the US would let him have a base near Miami. This proves that the idea is a starter.
Dang! I should come back and run for office.
Hey Snuffy
"That is,there exists class war in America,and it has resulted in the very profitable destruction of the middle class to the benefit of those in the top 2-5 % of this country who now control EVERYTHING. '
That isn't a political message? That **is** the political message.
How about, "The one-eyed man is on Zoloft in the land of the blind."
hey 3rdcoast -
the yahoo article you mentioned was written by robert kiyosaki of "rich dad, poor dad" fame.
i havenʻt him lately, but back then he was preaching borrow money and invest in real estate. leverage, leverage, leverage and retire young. for everyone.
Well, it seems that this Chapman chap isn't real popular with the people who know anything about him. I never heard of him until the recent video. He probably got a lot of the stuff right as to upcoming financial market failures, but his inability to see that these would be enormously **deflationary** indicates that he really doesn't understand very much about the real world. He also appears from what people here report to be somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun and of dubious moral and ethical stature. I guess that sums it up. The video did seem to creat a bit of a tempest in a teapot here though.
Toddman said...
re: Stoneleigh on the West Coast -
If Seattle is feasible, I can host as many as are interested.
Otherwise I'll gladly travel up or down to a meetup ;-)
Snuffy, El G:
I wish you guys would stop speculating about me. This one-eyed man is neither king nor on Zoloft. .) I don't exactly see all that clearly anymore either.
What I do see is that I will be visiting Portland in January. I'm not a celebrity draw like Stoneleigh, but I wouldn't mind spending a little quality time with TAE folk.
Snuffy, if by some chance you manage to entice my candidate for Empress of North America to Portland while I'm there that would be beyond fabulous.
In the 1937 Dorothea Lange photograph Wayfarers posted above, note the straight furrows. One man was largely responsible for introducing contour plowing and other measures to mitigate the dust bowl. By coincidence his papers reside at the OSU where Boone Pickens studied geology.
http://www.library.okstate.edu/scua/collect/finnell/index.htm
Darn Robert,
For a moment there I thought you were going to say that the man who was largely responsible for introducing contour plowing was Bob Chapman.
El G.,
Good sum-up. I still think the Chapman thing was worth seeing. And I don't feel responsible nor guilty for people thinking that means that Stoneleigh and me have any affinity whatsoever with any of Chapman's parade of clowns.
People don't see what he says, only what he is. My interest is the opposite.
At 3:25 PM Ilargi said:
"My political views didn't enter the picture. I'm sorry to see there's some among you who cannot make that distinction."
and again at 12:26 AM said:
"People don't see what he says, only what he is. My interest is the opposite."
God damn, I'm sorry I asked the question. I should like to point out that my political views didn't enter the picture either. As far as what he says, well, I listened to the man (along with a cadre of other wingnuts and gun nuts) for well over an hour go on about illuminatists and the international jewish conspiracy as expressed by the jewish lobby, which apparently controls the US.
You might say that "my interest is the opposite" also.
Ric2,
Wasn't there some gruesome stories in Turnbull's account of the Ik where people found great amusement in the miseries of their fellow man?
Indeed. I remember studying them in a developmental psychology course many moons ago. Children were only looked after until the age of about 3, then they were on their own (in roaming bands of young kids). If a scavenging child happened to injure themselves in the cooking fire, the adults would laugh rather than help. The child would have to deal with their injuries by themselves. There were almost no bonds between individuals as their society had completely broken down. It's the most extreme example of social breakdown (in the absence of actual conflict) that I know of.
During optimistic times, people tend to identify and bond with others. They sympathize with others and often seek to help them. Pessimistic times (in large-scale moves at least) are times of increasing indifference to the suffering of others, dehumanization (or demonization) of people who are different, and active cruelty. This compounds the tragedy of the times considerably and is something I dread quite frankly.
Do I finish paying off my credit card debt? Do I finish paying off my back tax debt? (About $3000 each) Or do I save it and prepare?
I would pay off as much of the debt as possible, while hanging on to some of the money in liquid form under your own control. Credit card debt has a punitive rate of interest. Paying it off quickly could save you a lot of money over time.
Is there any way you could pool resources with others? That would help you to prepare much more effectively as well as helping you to build social capital (which ultimately matters more than money).
Preparation is more difficult the fewer resources you have, but being debt free (or nearly so) would be a good start. I would suggest spending as little as possible in order to save as much as you can for a rainy day. Learning extra practical skills would help if you have the opportunity. That way you would have something to barter for essentials, which would make you less dependent on actual money.
I wish you the best of luck.
John Hemingway,
I am not a sombre person - at ASPO they called me a 'cheerful doomer' ;)
Indeed. Municipalities are going to find it exceptionally difficult to come up with any revenues at all, hence property taxes will go up drastically, pushing more people over the edge.
Not to replace socionomics, but to lay alongside it, this really puts a bomb in the mix:
http://unews.utah.edu/p/?r=112009-1
... essentially energy use and economic productivity are linked by a constant. (That turns out to be 9.7 milliwatts per inflation-adjusted 1990 dollar.) Throughout history, that means you can predict societal evolution by looking at energy uptake and efficiency.
That means all economic productivity follows energy use and opens the door to a reassessment of White's Law (good wiki page on that.)
I'm betting all of the waves in society are linked to energy similarly.
Stoneleigh makes so much sense that I wonder if he/she? is a woman.
LOL - thanks, and I am indeed female. Ilargi is male.
I'd be very happy to meet our readers on the west coast. I'll have a think about logistics and see what I can do. I'm currently thinking of the second half of January, and I could come for a week and a bit (one week off plus weekends either end), so that would give me some scope to get around a bit.
It's great to meet people who have put a lot of themselves into this site. Who knows how long we'll all be able to travel? Turning a virtual community into a real one (albeit a dispersed one) while we can seems a good idea to me.
Stoneleigh said "Municipalities are going to find it exceptionally difficult to come up with any revenues at all"
Our small community has resorted to speed traps to generate income. From public records requests, we have learned that income, a couple years ago, from speeding tickets, used to be appx $1000-$2000 per month. Such income is now averaging appx $7000-$8000 per month, and one month actually increased to $12,000. Per Month.
There is no way this gouging will continue forever, but I do wonder what will be the next tactic for revenues.
Bluebird,
Expect much more of that sort of thing. Municipalities will look for revenue wherever they can find it. Speed traps are a start, but there's much more to come. All sorts of things could attract fines and fees. When local authorities institute a lot of bylaws that could be difficult to comply with (that being the point after all, since they are designed to generate revenue), a lot of enforcement discretion ends up in the hands of local enforcement officers. That is a recipe for corruption down the line (eg pay the fine or pay the officer not to enforce the law against you). It wouldn't happen right away, but I don't think it would take that long either.
Municipalities could also run protection rackets. The possibilities are almost endless once one starts down that path.
At least, for the moment, you have control over whether you get these additional taxes, and frankly, the speed limit laws are usually reasonable and serve a good purpose. Most of the drivers in Cost Rica drive much too fast, and they don't seem to connect that with all the dead children and seniors. I'll have mixed feelings when the coming energy and credit crises puts them back on their horses, who, for the most part, have been on holiday for the past 15 years.
Just wait until the police start handing out tickets based on false testimony. Inevitable as people adjust to the new "tax" and slow down.
Same deal with the property taxes. Soon the local governments will own the arbitration companies as do the corporations like Blackwater and justice will be quite impossible.
"Municipalities could also run protection rackets. The possibilities are almost endless once one starts down that path."
This has already been going on for quite some time in towns in Texas, where the cops and judges are relieving pass-through drivers of the cash in their wallets. which sometimes is in the four figures.
Doobie........schmoobie. Happy times are back on the world indices. To paraphrase Freud, "Sometimes a doobie is just a good smoke."
Goldman bankers packing heat to do God's work.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ahD2WoDAL9h0
"I just think it was a skunk that was spooked by some sort of big cat."
Be thankful it was a nice skunk. :)
Debtwatch No 41, December 2009: 4 Years of Calling the GFC | Steve Keen's Debtwatch
The preceding link is to a Steve Keen article which actually references a mathematical model that supports the I&S thesis. Good reading.
Karl D. has identified two big problems and how we got here.
In my opinion, he has not properly identified the problems, and therefore, he missed the implications of his solutions.
What America doesn't understand and is increasingly unwilling to tolerate is the smug grin you folks have on Wall Street, having not only run Americans into bankruptcy but when your imprudent lending threatened to bankrupt you instead of sucking it up you extorted Congress to the tune of more than $12 trillion in direct support and guarantees.
That is you forced the bankrupt consumer to go broke twice and cover your imprudent acts, as all that money to cover up your insolvency is now being forcibly extracted from Main Street by the government through taxes!
Here's the problem, in a nutshell:
1. If we don't get the debt out of the system - really get it out, not just shuffle it around and shift who's balance sheet it sits on - we can't restart true economic growth.
Getting that bad debt out means that both borrowers (who are already going bankrupt) and lenders (who are thus far being protected) need to go bust.
2. To buy a swap from a company that has no money to pay and then claim that swap as "money good", thereby allowing you to "elevate" an asset that would normally have to be reserved against with regulatory capital to something that doesn't is beyond outrageous - it is ridiculously fraudulent.
This is the root cause of the so-called "systemic risk" right there and absolutely nobody is willing to take it on.
What readers need to understand is that the banks are not the ones that will go bankrupt. They are the middlemen.
The true lenders are the savers ... grandma ... pension funds ... foreign lenders ... etc., They are the ones that will go bankrupt.
You cannot tell the savers that they are bankrupt ... you’ll get Mad Max!
Yes! The governments are protecting the lenders!
Yes, it appears that the middlemen are being protected.
Yes, the middlemen are still middlemen and making money from the transactions needed to protect the savers from the truth.
Nobody knows how to get off the merry-go-round without getting hurt.
Nobody knows how to stop the merry-go-round so that everyone can get off.
The best that can be done is to slow the merry-go-round and hope that some of the people will be able to get off without being killed.
Geee! The stock markets are still going up! Every saver is saying, “MY savings are SECURED!”
(I’m not getting off the merry-go-round, YET!)
ps. I do not have a solution.
"Indeed. Municipalities are going to find it exceptionally difficult to come up with any revenues at all, hence property taxes will go up drastically, pushing more people over the edge."
There IS an alternative- older than money tax. Labor tax; corvée.
I understand it's already happening, on a voluntary basis; some folks hit the news last month when they went out with shovels and farm tractors and just fixed a small bridge taken out by flood- when the upper government layers told them it was going to be a couple months before they could get around to it.
For small communities, this could be both viable and not completely unpleasant. And possibly better than bankrupting everyone, for all concerned.
Re: West Coast
I am hoping to travel west in the second half of January and am going to look into including a side train trip from Vancouver to Portland and Seattle. I am hoping to get to Victoria as well. When I know specifics, I'll let people know and we can make arrangements to get together. I've never been to the west coast before and am very much looking forward to it. Meeting readers is great fun :)
Iconoclast421 said...
I dont know who VK is, but (s)he has it wrong. Some elites might prefer deflation, but most elites are either insiders or connected with insiders to the corrupt central bank. As such, they can and do position themselves to profit from inflation. This was done in late february of this year. I could see it on the charts, and it even led me to call the bottom (google "GE is a solid buy at $6.10" I bet you wont find one other person recommending GE at 6 dollars, and I've never recommended GE at any other price).
The decision was made to print, and that information was spread out through a series of criminal inside information leaks. Those privy to the information (as well as those who can read a chart) were able to leverage themselves to the hilt and then rake in the cash as the market rallied. You cant run that kind of racket in a period of constant deflation. That is why central banks will always attempt to print their way out of their messes. It enriches them like nothing else. It is a direct wealth transfer, no different than robbing Ft Knox.
Sign of the times:
Very bad news for rhinos- and all other large wildlife; when locals are desperate, rare wildlife gets eaten/poached, every time. Lots of history there; look up Père David's Deer and Wisent.
The stories about rhino poaching usually attribute it to demand for "oriental traditional medicine" - when it doesn't just say "Chinese aphrodisiac".
There is another traditional use, though, which is also a major contributor- Arabs will pay insane prices for rhino horn to use as a handle for the ceremonial dagger, the Jambiya.
I actually have a perfect fix for the money end of this problem, and maybe even the food end.
All Greenpeace needs to do is: find/poach about 20 rhino horns. Saturate them one way or another with powdered plutonium. Sell them on into the blackmarket.
Likewise with bushmeat. Pepper a dozen or so bonobo carcasses with plutonium; or heck, polonium works fine- and sell them on.
When word gets out that your tigerbone tea can kill you, in a very nasty way, and bonobo stew killed an entire village- or the rhino horn dagger you gave to your adolescent nephew wiped out his entire family- and that everyone in the black market pathways died or has cancer; that would kind of put a crimp in the market.
Don'tcha think?
@Stoneleigh,
In fact, I thought the description of the somber times to come was rather in contrast with your own personality. "Cheerful doomer", I like that:-)
June of 2007 a tornado struck the little town where I grew up and did major damage to the city park. As soon as word got around, people showed up with chain saws, tractors and trucks to clear the debris. A wealthy farmer/business man contributed most of the money needed to build a new shelter.
This was all voluntary, but in a dark and dismal future conscripted labor will no doubt be common. I've commented before about the use of chain gangs in the economically struggling southern states.
Crappy Accounting department:
Minneapolis is having to cut $8 millon from its police budget- no money. That's really going to hurt.
"Dolan's proposed 2010 budget eliminates 47 civilian and prevention specialists jobs -- nearly $4 million in savings."
My first thought is: "And $50 to $90 Million in new costs, for crimes to property not prevented, productive lives not saved, court costs, and costs of imprisoning criminals."
Ecologists are trained to, and used to, following all the energy inputs and drains on a system. Economists are trained to account only for monetary inputs and losses.
The non-monetary costs are a large part of what's killing us right now- and there still is no way to put them into the approved "accounting" processes.
If there were, the poor chief of police could have readily shown the city council- "look, cutting this $4 mil is going to result in a $56 million loss to the community over the next 10 years."
Not that that would make any money appear- but it might make a difference in the process..
Some day.
Stoneleigh's ability to remain cheerful, in the face of what she knows is coming, is the reason I want her crowned Empress. Alternatively, I guess I could stand to see Jon Stewart in charge. If you can't receive bad tidings at least somewhat cheerfully, you are in for a really bad future.
I've just been told that I have myasthenia gravis. Not the best news anybody ever got. It is the reason I've been claiming to be old one-eye. Both eyes actually work, just not together, so one has to be sent into the closet. Hey, it could be worse... I mean, I could have been told that I was actually Senator Grassley's illegitimate brother. .)
I.M.- "This was all voluntary, but in a dark and dismal future conscripted labor will no doubt be common. "
A wise herd manager will find a way to keep the phenomenon feeling "voluntary."
It can be done. I remember driving past a field in China- about 200 people were out in the field, doing something- and all dressed up in their fanciest clothes; kids running around in brilliant colors. Several buses parked nearby, which had brought them all here.
My host explained- it's a government requirement; every person in this region MUST plant 10 trees, each, every year. So they'd turned it into a party- where, incidentally, the compliance could be documented.
Good management. Some of the people were NOT happy to be there- but they weren't complaining enough to ruin it for the others.
Just a spoonful of sugar. :-)
Bill Moyers interviews Jane Goodall. Powerful ...
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11272009/watch.html
I can imagine 'voluntary' work along these lines:
On the night of July 30, 1935, miner Alexei Stakhanov performed, as the newspapers called it, “a worker’s heroic act.” In six hours of his working shift, he produced 102 tons of coal, 14.5 times the daily norm.
Stakhanov was dubbed a hero and everyone was called on to follow suit. Workers’ collectives pronounced themselves his adherents and set higher performance targets. Everyone wanted to be like him. What can be bad about a person becoming famous for his work achievements? In the meantime, the model for imitation, Stakhanov himself, soon started drinking heavily and ended his life in a psychiatric hospital of the town of Torez.
Those who studied his biography have voiced their suspicion that it was the discrepancy between appearance and reality that tormented him. He did not mine that colossal amount of coal himself, like regular miners do, but rather with the help of five assistants who followed in his footsteps and finished his job for him.
The truth is there was no heroic worker’s act. The noise around Stakhanov was created to motivate the Soviet people to exert themselves for the same old wage. Labor efficiency was increased not through improvement of equipment and technology, but through greater physical effort by the workers.
The bankruptcy of this approach is clear. If there was somebody naive enough to produce more than the norm, their pay per unit was simply cut. They were forced to produce more for the same money. Obviously, the number of those willing to work like that dwindles fast.
Workers were later 'encouraged' (shamed into) donating their days off for additional work. This became optional only in theory. Workers will have no bargaining power to resist additional demands or maintain existing protections against abusive practices.
Greyzone mentioned this by Steven Keen:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/12/01/debtwatch-no-41-december-2009-4-years-of-calling-the-gfc/
I also find it excellent. Very clear, a must read, though I do have two questions.
1. The importance of comparing debt to GDP strikes me as so obvious that I do not understand the objection of the neoclassical economists in the article, who evoke comparing a stock to a flow. What is their point exactly?
2. Is it possible that Bernanke, as Keen asserts, does not understand the effect of delevering on aggregate demand? That strikes me as highly dubious.
I find it far more likely that in the quote presented by Keen, Bernanke is simply presenting the arguments of neoclassical economists in decades past. I would think that Bernanke fully understands the effects of delevering, but for reasons that I am unaware of (i.e. I have no proof) is participating in the current policy of bailing out the banks.
The article El G posted above re: Goldman bankers arming themselves has this interesting bit I hadn't heard before (in the bottom 3rd of the article)...
Henry Paulson, U.S. Treasury secretary during the bailout and a former Goldman Sachs CEO, let it slip during testimony to Congress last summer when he explained why it was so critical to bail out Goldman Sachs, and -- oh yes -- the other banks. People “were unhappy with the big discrepancies in wealth, but they at least believed in the system and in some form of market-driven capitalism. But if we had a complete meltdown, it could lead to people questioning the basis of the system.”
El Gallinazo,
Maybe you could give me a few tips? I'll be in CR very soon doing volunteer work. Do you have any recommendations of things one should not miss? I'm more of a wanderer than a tourist, so I don't think the guide books will be all that helpful.
Hot Damn!!
AIG American Intl Group Inc
"The troubled insurer said that it completed a deal wiping out $25 billion of its debt to taxpayers by selling the New York Fed preferred shares of two of its international life insurance companies, including $16 billion of American International Assurance Co. and $9 billion of American Life Insurance Co."
Stock is up 15% today. Boy, as a taxpayer, I'm just overjoyed to have that $25 Bil back!!
oh, wait. Where is our cash, exactly?
So is this a new ploy, or an old one?
Stoneleigh- no question tax labor is, always has been, subject to vast abuse. I like my Chinese example, because it's in a kind of middle position. A lot of people being taxed (way more than I was seeing, of course) - without apparent abuse, yet.
In part, a way for communities to still get things done, when there is no money anywhere.
Stoneleigh: Thank you for clearing up what gender you subscribe to. I am pleased I guessed correctly even if I did have a 50% chance of being right. Also as an aside, I thought Colin Turnbull's take on the Ik had been somewhat discredited although I can't find my source. Seems like the IK weren't as icky as he said. You also forgot to tell me where I could find a picture of you and Illargi to hang up in my cave with my other saints. Also, Isn't it about time to think about writing a book like my other favorite is doing: the archdruid ?
If you believe that selling shares to the Fed is a way to get debt off the taxpayers' back, then yes, rejoice all you will. AIG lost much more yesterday than it gained today, so not everyone is partying yet.
I'm pretty sure the international association of cashiers could certify that no cash was harmed in the making of this lousy picture. It's all credit don'tcha know.
There is a good question as to where that credit entry was made. Did it get used to retire some treasury paper, or was it quietly dumped into the general fund? Perhaps, to be used to buy a few lumps of coal for the troops in Afghanistan? So many questions, so few answers.
Jason 7:09
I found your link pretty interesting. I find it easy to visualize humanity on earth as a giant bio-machine that consumes energy as it grows. Of course there is always exhaust from a FFuel engine!
Of course I cannot competently judge the article's theory, in which he nails down a discrete figure as a ratio of energy consumption to productivity, but it is worthy of some serious consideration, IMO.
The bottom line in all this is easy to understand, irregardless of the causes and extent of climate change. The earth is round, finite, and we cannot keep living like this for much longer or it will all be concrete, blacktop'd and plastic covered!
Sorry, I can't be of that much help. I have only been here six weeks. I traveled around looking at finca's for the first week in an SUV with friends who were looking to buy, and then high tailed it to the Rio Chirripo Valley just north of San Isidro de General. I then went about finding a place I liked to rent where I could get broadband internet of sorts (wifi from a tower 8 km away; no phone lines) and when I had settled in, I went about buying a very small motorcycle (last week). Also, we are in the monsoon season which is suppose to clear up sometime this month, but it has been raining hard every afternoon. I even took to putting my blue jeans in the electric oven - a la Jeans Cordon Bleu. I use the plastic National Geographic Map which is quite good, google earth maps, and a book really designed for potential ex-pats titled :
Living Abroad in Costa Rica (Kindle Edition)
by Erin Van Rheenen (Author)
which I have been referencing on my iTouch in Kindle version. It is also excellent for people who are thinking of a permanent move, but maybe not so much for the casual visiter. When the rainy season is over I intend to get around and see more on my motorcycle. I am also planning to visit the mountains of Panama just on the other side of the border in mid-January. Tourist visas last 90 days, so if you want to stay on, you have to clear out for 72 hours and then come back.
Other than that, the best I can tell you is that the people are very friendly to gringos and it's the most expensive country in general that I have been in in Latin America and more similar to the USA culturally even than Mexico. Also, the young women dress in tight, low cut blouses and short shorts and microskirts, so be prepared for that if you are of the male persuasion.
Also, so far I have spent less than an hour total in San Jose including clearing customs and immigration at the airport, and that has been quite intentional.
@I.M. Nobody,
When I lived in Milan I used to review the research papers of a good friend of mine who was a neurologist specialized in ALS and other neuromuscular diseases. Review them for grammar and syntax mistakes that is. I'm familiar with the terms they use, but the science behind it, no. Yours, from what I read, is a fairly rare condition, but it is treatable, which is good.
Looking at the debt/GDP ratio's in the Steve Keen charts (article which Greyzone posted, thanks) I could not help but relate it to the energy use to productivity theory in the article Jason - 7:09 posted.
Debt, production, and energy are like merging rivers flowing together to produce a flood (in which we are now overwhelmed.)
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AT05N20091130
"Only 26 percent of people who shopped over the weekend said they used credit cards for their purchases, according to a poll conducted for Reuters by America's Research Group."
The rest used FR Notes, Cliff Notes, checks, or debit cards against their checking accounts. I guess folks don't like paying 29.999999999999% interest to Jamie the Torch.
Our new "war" president makes his speech tonight. Afghanistan will once again become the anvil and graveyard of another empire. First the British, then the Soviet, and now the American. I wonder what the Afghanis did to deserve such a lousy karma.
Any else think that NPR News should consider changing its name to Goebbels, Inc.
@FB
I also thought the Keen piece was quite good.
"The importance of comparing debt to GDP strikes me as so obvious that I do not understand the objection of the neoclassical economists in the article, who evoke comparing a stock to a flow. What is their point exactly?"
I am not a neoclassical economist or play one on television but, I would think they don't agree with the sum of credit and cash equals total money definition. Debt (credit) is their stock and cash is their flow. (?)
Is monetisation of debt a cause of devaluation, or is it identical to devaluation? Does the external hyperdevaluation of the dollar require internal hyperinflation, or would such devaluation cause it?
There are few methods by which internal hyperinflation in the US could be triggered, here defined as prices doubling at least once every six months as a function of excessive money supply.
The easiest way, and possibly the only way, is by declaring martial law for whatever reason, destroying all binding faith in government paper and nullifying dollar demand from taxation, this should create hyperinflationary conditions almost instantly, regardless of money supply. The ensuing monetary conditions are best described as transflation, which is what happens when a trillion dollars wont trade for a sandwich.
It does not seem possible to sustain deflationary conditions if martial law were declared, there should be hyperinflationary distrust of money within a week if that happens, though not caused by excessive money-supply, rather infinite supply in regards to zero demand.
What is the theoretical output-gap during martial law, infinite or zero?
Ahimsa - I watched and thoroughly enjoyed the Goodall interview (as it happened). She is a gentle spirit and a person to emulate in many ways.
John Hemingway - I think I'll make myself a "TAE cheerful doomer" bumper sticker! (and I don't like stickers) Better yet!...
Host Ilargi -Send all those who hit the tip jar a sticker...
TAE CHEERFUL DOOMER
I M Nobody - "...As soon as word got around, people showed up with chain saws, tractors and trucks to clear the debris."
A lot of similar neighbor helping neighbor around here after a severe ice storm in 2003 which downed limbs and trees and cut power over sevral counties. I have high hopes (but lower confidence) that this behavior will show itself when the hammer falls.
BTW... Sorry about your diagnosis, but glad you can express some humor about it.
"Any else think that NPR News should consider changing its name to Goebbels, Inc."
Sounds good to me. Since the beginning of the Iraq War NPR should have been renamed National Pentagon Radio.
Goodall was wonderful! I watched the interview online today since we have no TV.
It may be a bit premature to mention martial law, but I am afraid such an event has a high probability of happening within four years, maybe two or less, for various reasons, it may be just what is needed to destroy sovereign debt most fully, creating hyperinflationary conditions internally to provide the basis for external currency hyperdevaluation. The elites could presumably profit from this in some ways, more than by sustained deflation if properly diversified.
Stoneleigh:
What do you think is going to happen to Taiwan and South Korea? Both are Chinese realms of influence. Both are manufacturing powerhouses. Both have massive reserves. However, both are export dependent countries. Also do you foresee Taiwan being absorbed into mainland China?
@John Hemingway
Thank you for the show of interest. Yes, it's rare and treatable, but not curable. As I understand the science, they know what the immune system does. They don't know why.
The diagnostic blood test was ordered by an opthalmologist. I see a neurologist Friday and will probably be put on drugs.
Maybe, if I get to meet Stoneleigh next month I will be able put both eyeballs on her. That would be good. .)
@el g
I've heard allegations that the Afghani did not exactly endear themselves to the macedonians and mongols either.
Haven't listened to NPR in a long time, but I heard the Public Broadcasting Corporation was subverted quite some time ago. A most unfortunate loss.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8389710.stm
Maybe we need a law that states "Two hung juries for one case will be construed as proof of jury tampering. Minimum sentence 10 years."
Yeah, yeah. Why, that would go against umpty zillion democratic principles!
So does Gotti.
El Galileo - I still watch the Moyers show on PBS and a few specials, music, etc. but the news hour is just flat wonder bread! No whole grains, just processed white paste!
I'll watch the Pres. announce his war plans, that match pretty well what the old man and the pretty girl who ran against him would likely have done. (I can say that I'm old too)
As to what it is about Afghanistan that has aroused the world's superpowers to such lengths I cannot fathom, although I am confident it has more to do with oil than Pakistani nukes.
Excellent idea. Greenpeace out to appoach Putin to see if he will part with a little of his stash of Po 210.
@ Stoneleigh:
This is exactly why I roll my eyes and sigh heavily at the "rugged individualists" in my workplace who rail against the unions because, "we have all these laws and OHSA now so we could never return to that!"
Really? Really?
Just like all the other recent events that, "couldn't happen here?"
Then again, I live in a country where some people think it would be a great idea to give Dick "40+ years of destroying America" Heydrich-Cheney a shot at being CinC in 2012.
Back in 2005 I should've dropped out of grad school and done everything I could to take a job in NZ...at least the populace there isn't 100% section 8 flipping insane.
Argh...speaking of being 'shamed' into work...I forgot the following point in my prior post...
Currently I have accumulated 200+ hours of vacation time + 8 hours of personal holiday at my workplace.
To get the Wednesday off before Thanksgiving, my company asked people to work an additional 5.5 hours over the course of a 'substitution week' or get supervisor approval to burn 8 hours of vacation time.
I was feeling awfully run down, and there were multiple people absent with swine flu. I would care about the additional 2.5 hours of vacation if I could sell it to a coworker, but that is not an option in my workplace.
I asked my supervisor to burn the holiday time and he gave me all sorts of garbage about working the substitution week like it would build character and improve my morality.
Are you kidding me? You really think I want to be that corporate clown who dies in his cube or lies on his deathbed thinking, "Gee, I wish I would've spent more time at work!"
Don't even get me started about my Gen Y co-op who appears to have few hobbies or interests and, "..doesn't get off campus much."
A lot of similar neighbor helping neighbor around here after a severe ice storm in 2003 ... I have high hopes (but lower confidence) that this behavior will show itself when the hammer falls.
I think the doomer community tends, on average, to expect too little from humankind. People have gone from prosperity to poverty before without going all crazy on their neighbors. I fully expect much more communal cooperation. I even expect we'll get to know our neighbour's names. .)
Of course, a person from a tribe in an adjacent county may want to beg off any invitations to dinner, due to a risk they might be it. .)
re Martial Law
It seems very likely that there will be civil unrest with possible widescale rioting in at least some of the major US population centers next year. It would take a unique and highly improbable set of circumstances to avoid this, given all that is happening.
I am not an expert on this but it just seems like JIT food delivery has too many failure modes and at least one will happen next year.
Most of my family lives just outside Baltimore, which has a population of 650,000 with 162,195 food stamp program participants and a city police force of 4000 officers. Even if JIT remains functional, what happens when government services collapse due to a funding crisis?
I know Stoneleigh had earlier said that civil unrest will likely occur next year with an uncoordinated response from authorities (to be eventually followed by more organized state repression). I concur, and think the Feds will have no choice but to declare martial law in more than one city in the US before the end of 2010.
Automimmune diseases were the subject of one of my major papers when I was studying biology. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this one. At least yours isn't one of the worst ones to be afflicted with, although I'm sure that's small comfort at this point. The TAE community will be rooting for you I'm sure.
@IM Nobody It's my understanding that the Afgans have never endeared themselves to anyone. Without trying too hard to defend Czarist Russia, the British Raj or the Soviet Union, the Afghans are really crappy neighbors. Even Iran has given us a bit of under the table help there over the last few years. IOW el G, they've spent the last few thousand years earning their kharma.
Persephone said...
UPDATE 2-Boost US debt ceiling to cover 2010, Hoyer says
"Congress will have to raise the current debt ceiling of $12.1 trillion in coming weeks to prevent the Treasury Department from defaulting on its debt."
"The recession, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and tax cuts have forced lawmakers to more than double the debt limit from $5.7 trillion when former President George W. Bush took office in 2001."
Thanks VK. You're statement is quite enlightening.
Thank you all for your links and posts. My education continues every day I can read TAE.
El G - haven't done a search on Costa Rican wildlife, but any animal that is from the mink/weasel family can emit a musky skunk smell .
Ilargi Wrote:
"Zimbabwe and Weimar are invalid comparisons. It doesn't take that much to recognize that. Just find the differences."
Where are the differences? Both Zim. and Weimar had unpayable debt and the Credit market for Joe Six Pack was dead too. Both Countries owned printing presses. How is that different the United States? Please point out the differences.
"The deflationist said in Dec 2008.
is hilarious."
That would be you and Stoneleigh. How many predictions did you make that didn't come true? Virtually all of them. Please go back to your TAE posts in December thru March 09 to see what you predicted would happen by now.
TAE: Dec 30, 2008:
"But first, 2009. No more loans, not for cars and homes, not for business lines and letters of credit, and increasingly not for governments, who'll be attempting to sell their bonds in an ever more overcrowded marketplace. International bond markets will be but a faint shadow of their former selves"
There are many more predictions that you made in the December-April period that didn't happen.
I believe Stoneleigh said sometime in earl 2009 (Jan, Feb or March) that she expected a total economic collapse by the Fall of 2009. While the economy is very bad its still alive. I can't find the exact statment she made, simply because there are so many comments about this prediction and I don't recall the exact text written to find the link. I think it was written in March or April of 2009. I should have bookmarked it. In the future I will be sure to bookmark yours and Stoneleigh predictions.
People are still able to get loans for cars and homes. In fact the FHA is still handing out Mortgages with only 3% downpayment to less then prime borrowers. The GSE's are still buying Billions in new mortgages. People have no trouble getting loans. In fact a bunch of recent college grads with no jobs bought a Million Dollar Mult-famility home in SF (From Wall Street Journal Article about a week ago). The borrowers were even shocked that they got their Million dollar loan!
There is no deflation as the price of Oil, commodities, and the Stock market started rising significantly since March. The period of deflation is likely gone. Perhaps for one more significant market correction, but we won't see a gov't pull back on spending or Fed Money printing. Interest rates will likely remain at extreme lows for the foreseable future.
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=127376#post127376
el gallinazo wrote:
"If your analysis is correct, I think one's best bet is to buy assets now, leveraged as high as you can. I think for the average non-zillionaire"
Real estate is a terrible investment in a hyper-inflation crisis. since it a non-liquid asset and costs for energy and maintaince, and taxes will soar. No body was buying real estate in Zim. or in Germany during the Weimar years and it didn't save property owners from hardship. Real estate isn't a inflation hedge, its an inflation deadweight, as you can't sell it and you can't buy goods and services with it.
If you think deflation is ineviable then sell everything and hold US dollars under a mattress!
Hyper-inflation has happen when gov't can't pay there debts and obligations and turn to to printing presses. It had nothing to do with Consumer and Business Credit and thier confidence. It isn't the same when credit and money liquidity is excessive. Zim and Wiemar had much much higher unemployment than we do today, yet they still had hyper-inflation. If Credit does continue to contract, the gov't will print even more dollars. Look at the charts of the big banks balance sheet. They are hoarding $100s of Billions and offloading Trillions of bad loads to the Fed and the GSEs, and the gov't is on a buying binge. Today the NY fed bought two AIG units for an overpriced value of $25 Billion. The gov't will go on overpaying for worthless assets until the banks balance sheets are healthly.
Living Abroad in Costa Rica (Kindle Edition) by Erin Van Rheenen (Author)
I'll look at the book and see if there is anything helpful in it.
I don't really plan to put my pants in the oven, but one never really knows. I'll keep the other wardrobe tips in mind though as there may be some reason for such fashions that isn't evident to me from here.
I had heard about the tourist visa requirements, but I appreciate the reminder.
I think you really should get out and about some when you get that motorcycle.
Thanks for the Moyers link, Ahimsa. Part 2 (about 13 mins in) becomes relevant for those interested in hearing her views on sustainability, but the whole thing is interesting.
"@IM Nobody It's my understanding that the Afgans have never endeared themselves to anyone. "
It's not my forté, but- it's my understanding that nobody has ever endeared themselves to the Afghanis.
All the wars there I can call to mind were the results of the invasion of Afghanistan by somebody. Unfortunately for them, they're astraddle of all local trade routes, and outsiders keep trying to control them. They've resented that, extremely stubbornly, regardless of their current religion.
How rude of them! :-)
The "Rome Is Crumbling" stories abound these days- but have you noticed- we don't notice?
"LOS ANGELES, Dec 1 (Reuters) - California officials said on Tuesday that drought and environmental restrictions have forced them to cut planned water deliveries to irrigation districts and cities statewide to just 5 percent of their contracted allotments."
Last year; they planned 15% of contract; and ultimately delivered 40; normal delivery is ~ 70%.
From the Minneapolis Star-Tribune (just out of bankruptcy)
"Someone broke into the city-owned St. Paul stadium late Sunday or early Monday, not to swipe bases but to take copper wiring in circuit-breaker boxes along the outfield wall, St. Paul police and a Saints official said."
They have no suspects.
LindaBob said...
Still feeling new here and a bit shy but 'couple things...
We took the plunge and nuked the IRA and paid off the house. May have been foolish, I hope not, but it's what we felt was right. At least we'll sleep better in our own house. Zero debt all around.
Next we have to figure out what to do with the rest$. Physically, we are pretty much set up (been here a long time, have water, gardens, heat, stores and PMs. It's a good problem to have but still thinking about choices. We know that we'll be the family homestead if things come to that and we are trying to prepare.
BTW, we are in Portland OR and would love to meet Stoneleigh and others.
Fed's Plosser says policy must be preemptive
ROCHESTER, New York (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Reserve must be prepared to raise interest rates if needed before the jobless rate has fallen to an "acceptable level", or risk losing its inflation-fighting credibility, a senior Fed official said on Tuesday.
Oh, and somewhere I ran across this:
http://www.escapefromamerica.com/
-- an e-zine about expatriate life
Thank you for your good wishes. I have a long history of taking things as they come. There certainly are agravating symptoms in addition to the ocular problem. I mostly take comfort from the fact that I'm old and was already effectively pretty useless.
I do appreciate the well wishes, but I think TAE folk should focus on the problems you blog about instead of wasting time rooting for me. That's life and I intend to go on laughing just like I always have.
ps: I hope to meet you in Portland.
Dont' look now (too late) the number as of 11/30 is 12,113,047,538,115.42. Wonder if there's an overdraft fee on that?
This is starting to look more and more like a likely way to trouble...the control is food...thru food stamps...1 in eight.1 in four children....What a control mech..."shut up and be still/sit down or the food to your kid stops."
or something a little more subtle,but as effective....
I cannot see anyway out of where we are now except to go to zero and start over.And that will mean blood,death and pain for many.There exists too many of the 1%....call it 3 to 5 million people in American to whom life is just fine as it is...and want absolutely no change.....or better put...change "they" believe in.
The rest of us can slide into the pit...as long as "they" control the strings,the ownership of 95% of everything...
Pretenses of a egalitarian society are being put aside everywhere...and the blinders are off for many,and soon for all.
There is a not-well-received..somewhat radical night talk radio host name of Mike Malloy.He is way way populist...not right..left,and loud.I cannot listen to him to much,as what he is broadcasts is so true,and on the money that my blood-pressure goes thru the roof,and I get depressed.The same is true of any of them...Thom Hartman,Randy Rhoads ect,Jack Rice...what happens is they have pulled the curtains back from the poltical clusterfluck and give a blow by blow of how we are being sold down the road by our "representitives"
Anyway,Malloy has pointed out many times that as soon as the poor dumb sob that believed that he too was part of the American dream,and thought he would have a nice house and toys and security....[well all thats gone]
His rage will melt steel..the payback will be in blood.
O-mans job is to get things done that the republicans could never do...like Clinton passing Nafta and gatta....his job is to gut Social security,and medicare,things a republican could never do....
And smile a big smile doing it.
I can not see where he is wrong.
They were never OUR representatives. I don't know about you, but I've never given one a plugged nickel. Why would they represent me? We accuse them of being corrupt, but that implies that we believe they could somehow not be. Given the actual rules being observed, I don't see how.
If listening to those clowns boils your blood, stop. You already know it is drain circling time. Devote your mental energies to figuring out how to ride the currents so that maybe you can shoot a landing and escape the vortex.
Jihad against the supposed perps will not be part of the solution.
Hey Snuffy -- good onya for listening to Malloy! More than anyone else, he mirrors how Mrs. Bukko and I think. Especially the rage. We did not miss a minute of any of his shows (during several network changes he went through) even when we were living in Australia. (Thank goodness for downloadable podcasts.) Have I told you tonight how much I hate these people? (i.e. the maggots devouring the flesh of American society...)
(And yes, defenders of maggots, I realize they only eat dead stuff, not living tissue.)
Re: the supposed ease of getting credit -- Mrs. Bukko and I have excellent credit histories and high credit scores in the U.S. We were hoping to get a credit card in Canadian dollars, and possibly a loan on a new Prius. But we cannot get credit in Canada to save our lives.
The ostensible reason is that we have no Canadian credit history, because we're recent immigrants. We told the credit union (where we have five figures' worth on deposit) and the Toyota dealer to check our ratings at TransUnion et. al. The U.S. is just next door, after all, and it's not unheard of for Americans to move to Canada. No go, though.
If credit is so fricking easy to get, TechGuy, then how come we can't? It's no trouble for us -- we will continue to use our U.S.-dollar denominated plastic. (We had the same problem in Australia, and did the same thing.) And we could afford to pay for a new car in cash (or even gold dubloons) if we wanted to. But I'm so aggravated that we're going to buy a used car for cash, and eschew plastic wherever possible. Screw these stupid Canadian lenders if they don't want to make some low-risk profit from us. Have I said tonight how much I hate these people? Have I said that already?
Lastly, ThirdCoast, it's too bad your work situation is not in the worker's paradise of Australia. Whilst I can't speak for the entire country, where I worked, it would be considered unsporting, if not outright gauche, to ask employees to labour more to make up for a holiday. "Wagging" a shift or "ringing in a sickie" is the real national sport, not Aussie Rules football.
They don't have the slave mentality in Oz, yet life goes on. People drive nice cars, eat at restaurants, have enough money for holidays overseas. No reason it can't be that way in the USA, except the psych is already on the populace.
Comment-world trivia bit re: the Steve Keen piece on a country's aggregate debt to GDP ratio -- the banned-from-TAE commenter "Scepticus" was an active participant (with multiple responses from Keen) on that one, FWIW.
All of I&S's predictions are unfolding, except at a somewhat slower rate than they expected. And the equities markets are currently quite irrational. I am no expert, but I assume that the current P/E ratios are the highest in history. The S&P has stopped publishing them a few months ago, probably for a good reason. The system has more inertia than one might have thought and TBTB have thrown out a sea anchor, but at huge expense to future taxpayers. Most of the lauded credit you are extolling is going on the taxpayer tab, and this cannot go on indefinitely. Doesn't change the direction, just the rate that it is happening (for the moment). I&S are not day traders, and exact timing is of little interest to them, though Stoneleigh will look at it vis-a-vis equities as an amusing hobby involving herd instinct and probability functions. Whether the inevitable happens in 6 months or 18 months is just not that high on their priorities list.
FYI, Stoneleigh does predict hyperinflation for the US dollar. She simply says that it cannot happen until almost all of the vast credit evaporates, and that will take a matter of some years. One can only get hyperinflation when the primary source of money is fiat currency. Right now, at under $1T, it represents less than 3% of the entire USA credit/money supply.
Speaking of melting steel, check out Jim Puplava's podcast with Martin Gross the author of National Suicide. I knew nothing of Gross before this podcast, but the O-Man froth was palpable through my headphones...
http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2009/Gross.html
S O S - 12.1 Tr... 12.2 Tr... Oh well, what's a few billion among friends!
Techguy:
Overall, loans are down, although a few categories are up. I direct your attention to Table IIA from the 2009 Q3 FDIC Quarterly Banking Profile (large pdf file) which compares data at all FDIC insured institutions from 09Q3 to 08Q3.
Although the non-farm residential and home equity lines categories are up, overall loans secured by real estate are down.
Loans to inviduals: down
Commercial & industiral loans: way down
Net loans & leases are down 8.2% when comparing 09Q3 to 08Q3.
If you look at the previous 2 reports, we see the following:
09Q2 vs 08Q2: Net loans & leases down 5.6%
The trend is clearly that banks are lending less, just as I & S said would happen as we get more and more stuck in the liquidity trap.
You can access the FDIC quarterly banking profile reports (along with lots of other data) at their web site: FDIC QBP
Beware of giving WSJ rah-rah "yay economy!" reports too much credence.
@TechGuy
As you have opened the box, so to speak, I will take issue with your assumption that Zimbabwe prints their own money. That is highly unlikely, but as currency printing is a pretty secretive business I can't be certain. However, if you would go read this story about Currency Printing at the NY Times, you will see that even the US$ is printed by private banknote companies. The Zim government can buy all the banknotes they want, but they'll have to pay for them with a hard currency. That puts some limit on quantity though not nominal value.
"The Campaign Cash Behind the Afghanistan Escalation"
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/01-13
"But while the president may be showing disloyalty to his political base, he's remaining faithful to the defense industry interests that so generously funded his campaign.
According to the Center for Responsive Politics' OpenSecrets.org database, the top recipient of defense industry money in the 2008 election cycle was Barack Obama, whose haul of $1,029,997 far surpassed Republican contender Sen. John McCain's $696,948.
During the 2008 cycle, the industry contributed a total of $23.7 million to federal candidates -- far more than the $17.4 million it invested during the 2006 cycle or the $18.1 million in the 2004 cycle.
The top five defense industry contributors during the 2008 elections were Lockheed Martin at $2.5 million, Boeing at $2.1 million, Northrop Grumman at $1.8 million, and Raytheon and General Dynamics at $1.7 million each.
And it appears their investment may be paying off: The Associated Press reports that analyst Howard A. Rubel of the global investment bank Jefferies & Co. sent out a client note today stating that the fiscal 2010 Defense Department Budget will likely boost demand for precision munitions, communications gear, helicopters, armor and surveillance systems.
Among the companies whose stock Rubel rated as "Buy"? General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman."
Smells like deflation to me:
From today's Wall Street Journal Personal Finance Section:
"Are Your Old Clothes Good Enough?
Resale Shops Are Getting Picky as More People Look to Exchange Their Used Duds for Cash"
Score another point for Stoneleigh's predictions.
Empires die from military boondoogles.
The U.S.military is a parasitic creature at this point in time. It will kill it's host populace with outrageous and impossible demands on it's resources. It does not care, it has taken on the spirit of a rabid vampire bat.
Afghanistan is not about terrorism.
It's about oil and gas, from the former Soviet republics.
Afghanistan is the only avenue for a pipeline that does not pass under the territorial/political control of Russia or Iran.
Obama doesn't have the nuts to say that. Pretending to be a powerful rich white man in black face is more than enough deception for him to handle at any one time.
Who knows, when Obama was deeply bowing in Asia,, it was because the pipeline is for China. A gift. A token of our appreciation for them not outright destroying our economy. Stranger bed fellows have happened in history.
Since we can't pay China back anything of worth, how about blood sweat and tears doing 'god's work' in Afghanistan.
Let's Make a Deal.
Ahimsa - Remember the time in the movie CASABLANCA when Claude Rains, the local "Policia" went up to Rick and said... "I'm shocked! shocked! I tell you, to discover gambling in this establishment!"
well... (wink)
"Ahimsa! I'm shocked! Shocked that you would think those $$$$$ contributions had any effect on U.S. foreign policy!"
I. M. Nobody
Please send me your email address. I would like to send you an interesting link that is even too bizarre to post on this comment section dealing with autoimmune diseases.
hpaulfuchs at a the commercial site gmail.
"I think you really should get out and about some when you get that motorcycle.'
Well, I have had that motorcycle for a week to the day now. I have about 100 km on it. To go into more detail why I haven't been "out and about:"
1) It is extremely uncomfortable to tour with a motorcycle in a monsoon. Additionally it is a lot more dangerous for a variety of reasons, starting with staying on two wheels.
2) In less then 100 km I have passed two motorcycles smashed in the middle of the road with police and EMT's in attendance. I went to pay my rent yesterday, and my gringa landlady apologized for being a little weird, but she said that she just passed a dead older woman in the middle of the road, hit by a car, awaiting the arrival of the police.
The best that can be said for Tico drivers is that they are reckless. The worst will remain unsaid.
3) I sold my last motorcycle over 12 years ago. All my previous bikes were 650cc highway bikes which I almost never took on dirt roads. I now have a 125cc and I cannot avoid crappy dirt roads as I live on one. Furthermore, the low power gives them less evasive powers. I am over 60, my strength, reflexes, and agility are waning, and my bones heal slowly now.
4) It is probably no coincidence that your arrival here coincides with the end of the wet season in the central highland.
5) I have the rest of my life to see the sights, and I will probably see a lot more of them if I extend that life a bit.
So I will be out touring and investigating as soon as it is reasonably safe and dry. In the meantime thanks for the advice. It's always nice to correspond with younger people of strong opinions and generous with them.
@Top Cat
Add to that the intelligence and military's Opium business.
On Afghanistan, Adam Curtis, creator of the excellent docu, The Power of Nightmares,
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
has a blog up about the last 200 years of the West's relationship to Afghanistan. For some reason, the embedded video's aren't working for me, but still a good read.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/afghanistan/
Top Cat said...
"......... it has taken on the spirit of a rabid vampire bat."
Jeez, I'm ready to start humming the Donovan song, "Must Be the Season of the errr .... Vampire." First the great Vampire Squid, then the cinema vampire dreamboat, and now the rabid vampire bat. Think I'll buy futures in my local blood bank. Does Sheila insure the deposits? Does one have to be a type A?
Wolf at the Door said...
@ Tech Guy
Yes....Ilargi is somewhat over the top in his predictions....at least in terms of timing not scope.
Everything is going to take a lot longer to play out IMO than the timeframes usually expressed here. The most powerful empire in world history will not collapse overnight...I usually take the timeframes and outcomes that are the consensus here and automatically spread them out over the next half decade or so. If you do this then you can still appreciate the analysis and the fine understanding of all the many interrelated factors that will come into play as we progress along the road to collapse while being amused and entertained at the certainess of some here regarding its imminence.
I have noticed that when they are right it is a product of their superior analytical skills and when they flub something it is all chalked up to the fact that the analysis is probabilistic (which is just a fancy way of saying that even when they are wrong they are actually right).
Nobody knows when she blows but everything that has been done to date to avoid the blowup will only insure that when it happens it will be spectacular....
@TechGuy, et al. The flaw in the deflationary model is the gross miscalculation as to the extent governments and CBs would undertake to devalue their respective currencies.
Private loan origination may be (temporarily) down, but it is being more than offset by extraordinary levels of government borrowing.
In a fiat environment, the only thing restricting the ability of the PTB to re-ignite an inflationary bubble is the residual debt overhang from the previous credit fueled party.
I&S subscribe to the theory that the herd will bolt in a mad attempt aimed at extinguishing those excess claims. Others, such as myself, believe that FI investors will simply be wiped out, thereby saving everyone a lot of time & effort spent trying to collect something that no longer exists.
Deus ex machina, and all that.
In order for my thesis to work, it requires two key assumptions:
* older savers dying off; and
* foreign holders recognizing that they wouldn't even have reserves in the first place if previous inflationary cycles hadn't taken place.
If everyone is perfectly sensible about this, debts are cancelled (ie jubilee) across the board and the party resumes.
That means dollar denominated risk assets rise in proportion to $USD devaluation. For example, if the dollar drops by a factor of 20x (5% of its current value), assets across all classes should increase by 20x.
The operative word is "sensible". I contend that the only fly in the ointment is if pesky Americans start rioting before the devaluation plans are completed.
If we see an interruption in political power, and the herd does bolt, then the I&S theory comes into play.
If you could send me the link I would appreciate it. Traditional Chinese Medicine treats autoimmune diseases quite well. Sadly, there is probably not enough money to be made to ever justify the research needed "to prove" its effects. Anyhow I love to keep abreast of what is out there.
As an update on some real real estate info. My St. Louis condo has had more interest, from short sales people. The are unhappy but undaunted to find that BofA is the mortgage company. I have been selling the appliances, and have found a huge glut of them on the market so very little to be reclaimed there. My mother successfully sold a house in Oregon for 20% less than peak value. It took almost 6 weeks to close because of financing delays, that were never adequately explained. There are huge anisotropies in the market, same as it ever was, just more so I suspect.
* Stoneleigh may visit the Pacific Northwest; If so TAE Summary hopes to meet her
* Devaluation questions:
- Will 3 Reichsdollars be replaced by one new dollar?
- How is this done and what does it mean?
- Why not let inflation do this naturally?
- Since one dollar = 9.7 milliwatts and e=mc^2 are mass, energy and money all the same thing?
* Hindsight shows there were problems in Dubai; Dubai is bottomless pit; Who will throw their cash in? Someone who expects growth to resume
* To buy is to do; To do is to buy; Do-buy-do-buy-do
* Food banks expect 100% increase; Food stamps are canary in coal mine; Those on food stamps won't pay much in taxes; Martial Law is likely in a few years; Food will be used as the carrot, guns will be the stick
* Counties make better localization units than states; Municipalities are hosed; Speed traps, conscription and protection rackets may fund some munis; Municipal Bond will have a new meaning; Good neighbors may fill in the gap when munis fail; Doomers underestimate humankind
* VK's generation will inherit the mess; Let's hope they are up to being heroes since the prophets have failed them
* Are the TPTB kicking the can down the road or do they just have Restless Leg Syndrome? Elites may want to deflate but lack the will to do so; The top 1% are happy with the things the way they are; Elites have assets, not cash
* Bob Chapman:
- Says interesting things
- Assigns dates to I&S predictions
- Wants to sell us gold or treasuries
- Is hopefully wrong
- Is politically to the right of Genghis Kahn
- Is in a strange right side funk
- Is old and well off
- Is anticipating hyperinflation too soon
- Deserves suspicion
- Is an idiot full of nonsense who is usually dead wrong
- Is beneath our level
- Is easily skewered by Bill Bonner
- Probably introduced contour plowing
* Mish's fame has gone to his head; Jim Kunstler plagiarizes TAE faithfully; Stoneleigh is a cheerful doomer; Snuffy is wildly optimistic
* Debt is the hangman's noose during deflation; Many jobs will disappear; Invest in independence
* Things that smell like skunks:
- Pesticide drift
- Stale marijuana
- Skunks, minks and weasels
- Beavers in search of a new stadium
* People bond during optimistic times and become cruel during pessimistic times; Art is the shadow of economic conditions; Dark humor is a symptom of despair; Go placidly among the doom and gloom
* In inflation those who stand closest to the printing press win; In deflation everyon loses except savers; Deflation will devastate commerce which will make hyperinflation inevitable; Buy, baby buy
* Dying before 52 is an accident; Autopsies aren't much help
* 401K is biggest scam ever; Sucker's rally is laundering TARP money; There is a war between savers and gamblers
* Obama now owns Afgahn war; Obama is the man who would be king; Afgahnistan is the graveyard of empires
* Humpty Dumpty has already been blown to smithereens and is nothing but shell fragments; Economy will soon look like the blue screen of death; Time to press the reset button; Unfortunately many programs will be terminated and lots of bits and bytes will be lost
* Humanity is a giant bio-machine; I and S predictions are unfolding in SloMo; The herd is only shuffling toward the cliff
* Debt ceiling at $12.1T is too low; Raise high the roof beam, congressmen. Like Ares comes the deficit, taller far than a tall man
I was reading some of the commentary from Ahimsa's commondreams.org link and saw this reference to Afghan conflicts. Quite the checkered history....
As Santayana said, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
There are many, too many, reasons Afghanistan is called the "Graveyard of Empires" as noted in Michael Moore's letter to Obama. Sadly, we are now poised to repeat a long, deadly history there.
My numismatist brother Paul Terpstra has collected coins of MOST of the empires that met their end (as imperial powers) in roughly the region we now call Afghanistan. He notes: "A partial list of them occurs below. Overlapping dates indicate times when multiple empires were simultaneously munching on different parts of the poisoned bait..."
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics: 1979-1989
The British Empire: 1837-1919
The Mughal Empire: 1525-1709
The Timurid Empire: 1370-1506
The Il-Khanate: 1245-1332
The Mongol Empire: 1221-1245
The Khwarezmid Empire: 1215-1221
The Delhi Sultanate: 1206-1221
The Ghurid Empire: 1186-1202
The Ghaznavid Empire: 970-1186
The Abbasid Caliphate: 750-970
The Umayyad Empire of Arabia: 637-750
The Tang Dynasty of China: 620-637
The Hepthalite Kingdom: ca. 400-580
The Sassanian Empire: 224-561
The Kushan Empire: 135-240
The Kingdom of the Western Satraps: 020-405
The Indo-Scythian Kingdom: BC140-AD020
The Greco-Bactrian Kingdom: BC250-BC048
The Mauryan Empire: BC305-BC232
The Seleucid Empire: BC323-BC250
The Empire of Alexander the Great: BC328-BC323
The Archaemenid Empire: BC550-BC328
For corrections additions: Paul.Terpstra@Illinois.gov
Re: the pondering here over banknotes -- There's been a scandal slowly brewing in Australia over bribery in "selling" the material used to print money on.
To sum it up, it takes specialized material to print fiat money on, so it's harder to counterfeit. Australia, Switzerland and many other countries I haven't visited, use colourful plastic-y stuff, with clear plastic windows inserted. And some company has to make the stuff, and sell it for a profit.
In Australia, raw banknote material is made by a company named "Securency". It's part-controlled by the Reserve Bank of Australia, Oz's Fed. To increase its business, it tries to get other countries to use their plastic stuff. And apparently Securency bribed decision-making officials in Vietnam so they would start making plastic dongs. (Mish fans might remember the humourous thread about the Viet dong...)
Coverage of this dirty deal revealed a lot about the international currency stock business to me. As far as Zimbabwe, I recall that their worthless banknotes were printed on paper supplied by Germany, and one of the issues about anti-Mugabe sanctions was whether it was moral to keep sending him the raw material to add those zeros to.
I wonder what form of money Zimbabwe used to pay the supplier of its banknotes?
As usual, I highly recommend John Michael Greer's latest essay. This time, he posits that a more (or at all) useful understanding of the nation's economic position could be based on a tri-partite productivity indicator that separates the primary (natural resources), second (goods and services) and tertiary (monetary/financial) products of the economy and allows us to compare them to each other. He also makes the case, which is fairly self-evident, that GDP reporting is by itself useless.
My sister just showed me the "Dollars & Sense" column in one of our local community newspapers, The County Chronicle in northern Baltimore County, MD. (Is every small-paper financial column in the US named "Dollars & Sense" or is it just me?)
Anyways, the 2-page article is on Bob Prechter and Elliot Waves. The columnist says deflation is likely. He recommends holding dollars (but doesn't go so far as to say cash in hand out of the banking system).
He ends with this: "Watch the dollar. Hated by all, should it find a bottom and begin to advance significantly, everything else goes down. Everything."
Is the TAE message finding ears in smaller, local media outlets?
Actually the author of the column on Prechter is a former commodities trader for a "large Wall Street firm" and currently consults for Elliot Wave International. Probably not the typical background for a small-newspaper financial columnist.
TopCat, thanks for the commentary...
I wonder, since Afghanistan is the leading opium producer (right?) then perhaps it's not that the U.S. wants to take over the business, but rather it doesn't want anyone else doing so.
I don't know. It's just depressing that we've had non-stop war for the past 10K years with intermittent periods of peace to re-arm.
I had hoped that Obama would be different, set us on a path to avoid past mistakes. But alas, human nature hasn't changed one bit. And I am now wiser for not expecting it to do so anytime soon.
Thanks I&S. And all the commenters.
Ric2 Wrote:
"Overall, loans are down, although a few categories are up. I direct your attention to Table IIA from the 2009 Q3 FDIC Quarterly Banking Profile (large pdf file) which compares data at all FDIC insured institutions from 09Q3 to 08Q3."
But thats a lot different that Credit is completely gone and unavailable, as was suggested by Ilargi a year ago:
"TAE: Dec 30, 2008:
"But first, 2009. No more loans, not for cars and homes, not for business lines and letters of credit, and increasingly not for governments"
Credit is no longer as abundant and as easy as it was, but its still available. Its still easier and less costly to get a loan today, then it did 10 to 20 years ago. Business and Consumers are borrowing less, as the cost of borrowing have go up. People want free money, and that simply not available (at least until the dollar is worthless).
"One can only get hyperinflation when the primary source of money is fiat currency. Right now, at under $1T, it represents less than 3% of the entire USA credit/money supply."
The real money supply is much greater than 1 Trillion. I doubt that hard cash is necessary to create hyper-inflation. Paper currencies were the dominate media for transactions in the past. Today, the bulk of transactions are electronic.
"I&S are not day traders, and exact timing is of little interest to them"
My point was not to critize future expectations. I was merely fallicy of point in time prediction that never come true. Don't believe people that tell you that some event is going to happen on such a date. It doesn't matter if it Bob Chapman, Obama, Ilargi or even the Pope. No one can predict the future. We can only speculate on future trends.
Just for the record, in the past decade we've had more than 3400 days of higher inflation and a mere 112 of deflation (if I recall correctly). We probably will have a few more days of deflation in the coming years, but its extremely unlikely to have a lasting impact. The Trend is towards inflation and has been for many many decades. The worse the economic becomes the more money that will be spend by Washington to buy votes and futile attempts to re-inflate the labor market. This will reduce faith foriegn creditors will have on America. Foriegns will continue to sell to the US market as long as they believe there are consumers that can buy their exports. Sooner or later they will realize the American consumer is tapped out and that the only one doing the buying is the Federal gov't using devalued dollars. Thus further devalueing the dollar to the point its worthless. The dollar does not deplend on how many people are unemployed, how little credit is available to consumers and businesses, its value is dependant on the confidence of its creditors to take US dollars in exchange for goods and services. For the average Joe that is unemployeed and has no money, inflation or deflation is nearly irrelevant. In either case, he still can not buy stuff. 100 Trillion of Nothing or 0.00001 of Nothing is still Nothing.
The only way deflation will happen is if the gov't stands behind the dollar and gets serious about fixing america's financial issues. Since the odds of that happening are zero, the smart bet is hyper-inflation. its not going to happen tommorow, next month, or even next year. I don't know when its going to happen but I know its inevitable.
Best of Luck to you All
BTW: Congress quietly or covertly increased the Debt Limit to at least 13 Trillion. They are just waiting for the Senate to approve the request.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/12/01/shhh%E2%80%A6congress-is-raising-the-debt-limit/
Actually, my previous comments don't make much sense, basically any situation of sufficient anarchy would be hyper-inflationary, most likely triggering massive hoarding and subsequent loss of faith or trust in currencies as form of payment.
Martial law could probably do that, but that depends on the manner in which it would be declared. Its possible the government would continue to demand payment of taxation in dollars, and some commercial activity could remain intact, which might just continue deflation if general faith in currency were preserved.
I do think hyper-inflation would have to be based mostly on physical currency, so that most transactions are done in paper notes, not credit. I'm not sure if credit flows can be hyper-inflationary at all, unless done on purpose, since they are so easily removed from circulation, the problem with hyper-inflationary spirals being that volume and velocity of money flows cannot be easily decreased when in physical circulation.
It is difficult to provide a sound definition of said hyped phenomenon, prices doubling once per unit time as a direct function of excessive money flows, but how would any of the 'money' pumped into equities thus far be translatable into actual money-flows chasing goods?
As for moneyed elites profiting most from deflation, is that not dependent on whether they are invested in dollar-denominated assets very much? They must have ways in which to profit from dollar inflation as well, surely.
Wolf at the Door
I think your time frame is a bit too slomo. As with Wile E Coyote looking down, d= 1/2 gt2, or for those who hate physics (which included most of my classes when I had to teach it), things fall a lot faster given a little time.
Costa Rican Dentistry
Went to see the dentist today. She is an attractive woman in her late twenties who speaks fluent English. She asked me when I had got my last cleaning, and I said two years. She groaned and said that someone with my gum problems should get a cleaning every eight months. I replied that my dentist is in Cusco, Peru and my trip last year fell through. Then we got into cost.
She said she simply couldn't understand the prices that American dentists charge. Most of the work she sees from the US is quite ordinary in technique and materials. She said that sometimes Germans come in, and they also had paid through the nose, but both the work and materials were quite intricate and extraordinary, so the prices could be rationalized a bit. She repeated that she didn't understand it, and that she made a decent living at her rates, and she used all the latest USA equipment and materials in her practice.
She spent almost an hour working on me with advanced equipment and an assistant in attendance who wrote down notes as she called off her findings and held the phone to her ear when her child care called for advice. Total cost was $38.
Then I had to go to an X-ray store. The proprietor was a 58 year old gringa from rural Kansas of Scandinavian extraction who came to the CR in 1973. She was not a hippy at all, and was into the old values, but she just got tired of all her male friends and relatives either coming back from Nam in body bags or totally crazy. So she left. Started a private school, married a Tico, has three kids. Ultra green outlook. Waste not - want not.
Had a very sophisticated x-Ray device which totally circled around my head and took one graph that showed all my teeth and jaws. Total cost - $21.
A good thanksgiving??
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/12/privately-owned-amtrusts-bankruptcy-a-bad-sign-for-regionals.html
Privately-owned AmTrust’s bankruptcy a bad sign for regionals
Posted by Edward Harrison on 2 December 2009
Moreover, the bankruptcy occurred yesterday, not on Friday in the typical FDIC bank seizure fashion.
I just caught up on this list - several things I think warrent a comment.
1. Afganistan - There are several reasons the USA has a military prescence there. Defense contractors that need targets/ratioanle for large budgets. Export lines for gas and oil in former Soviet republics. Misguided belief by some that we can actually secure the US by dropping bombs and shooting people in distant lands.
2. Bukko_in_? Isn't it time for a name change? I think the TAE groupies would be able to follow it without attributing a new appellation to some knock off, relative, or descendant.
3. Municipalities - There has been discussion of local goverments' finances on TAE before, and the consensus is that many are totally hosed. Last night my wife and I decided to try out a restaurant in town for the first time as we are new to the area. "In town" happens to be the county seat and our table happened to be right next to a group of six people discussing tax rates and budgets. I recognized the treasurer as I sat in my chair because he'd won the election less than a month ago by a narrow margin (and he had taken out some full page adds in local papers prominently displaying his face). I wasn't privy to the whole conversation but I did gather that the county's general fund is running rather low. The budget as currently proposed could work, but any hiccup and the general fund will be depleted. There is no cushion left to play with. I even heard him use the "B" word - bankruptcy if there are unforseen problems. For anyone that's curious I'm in Upstate NY in a predominantly rural county.
4. Steve Keen is a genius. I always find his stuff to be educational and understandable without being dumbed down too much.
5. OFF TOPIC - but really interesting - Immune disorders. Hookworms? There are some people with terrible asthma histories and Crohn's disease out there who claim to have "cured" themselves with hookworms. If I had an auto-immune disorder I'd totally give them a shot. The worst thing that could happen is I'd have an auto-immune disorder AND hookworms. There's a cure for hookworms though. If you're interested try googling the topic.
There is a theoretical basis for a brief period of hyper-deflation, which would be defined as a halving of prices per unit time as a function of extreme shortages in moneyflows, but this could not last very long before collapsing the system totally.
It may not be possible to sustain >5% deflation for more than six or seven years in industrial society without causing total supply-chain collapse, making sustained debt-deflation somewhat unfeasible, in that sense extreme inflation would likely happen in five years or less by conscious choice of policy.
Credit-based hyperinflation might have to be forced actively and deliberately, maybe with freely dispersed richly-endowed debit cards on negative interest rates, while huge amounts of physical cash dissemination could cause a runaway moneyflow 'by accident'.
Causing hyper-inflation in the US is very much harder than is generally assumed, it requires greater active policy than with traditional cash-based moneyflows. If oil reaches 2000$ per barrel or so, it might become more feasible to deliberately attempt it.
Bukko - Vancouver is used car heaven. Lots of good deals to be found. Some pitfalls, though, and places to avoid. Get in touch if you want some advice on where to look. El g can hook us up - if he hasn't pancaked that scooter yet ;-)
KD has published an incoherent rant about Tiger Woods now. He appears to be really losing it.
Yoa el gallinazo
From http://www.infocostarica.com/fauna/vampire.html
These guys are in your 'neck' of the woods, sorry for the vampire pun.
"...Although pregnant vampire bats can be netted in any month of the year, it is said that they have high pregnancy activity rates for the wet seasons in northern Costa Rica, and this may be related to pray availability.
Presumably vampire bats experienced a population explosion when domestic animal where brought to the New World. These afforded the vampires a more accessible an more plentiful supply of blood than did the native wildlife. Today serological tests of blood meals of Desmodus rotundus in Mexico, Trinidad, and Costa Rica indicate a nearly complete switch to domesticated animals, particularly cattle, horses and poultry.
Though their unique feeding habits, vampires can transmit a number of diseases, the most serious, of course, being paralytic rabies. Desmodus rotundus is known to survive the virus itself...."
Don't freak out, I'm sure the locals are aware of the critters and know the right moves. They don't like moonlight nights and they too apparently have fabulous teeth :>
I believe there is A Flaw in the Hyperinflationary Argument. I explain my reasoning on my blog.
@Greyzone...You make a good point. I had just assumed the money was circulating widely.
What could be done with $30 billion?
Give $12,000/year to 2,500,000 USA citizens for welfare.
Hire at $12,000/year 2,500,000 Aufgans for wages.
Pay 2,500,000 Afgans $12,000 not to grow poppies and to plant another kind of crop.
Directly help the war machines for 18 months.
You aren't the first older person to take that tone. Being but a mere 40-and-some-change, I realize how little I must know in comparison to the many, many, many decades of wisdom you likely possess. Of course, this is the reason why I asked you for advice in the first place.
You paint a truly frightening picture of commuting in Costa Rica. Up until this exact instant, I hadn't imagined anything could possibly surpass the perils of Phoenix freeways during the dreaded August rush hours. Now however, I understand that although the desert folk pack pistolas in order to resolve their methamphetamine induced road rages, what you report to have experienced since your arrival there is true treachery!
Your assumption #4 is just really wrong. It is a mere coincidence of timing. As this is said to be everything, I feel safe to consider it something. I'm personally assuming that there should be safe ways to see the sights at any time if only one were creative about it. Indeed, I tell most everybody to get out as much as possible because frankly, life is short.
Since being a smart ass is not really my strong suit, again I say thank you.
It seems that EBrown does not share your belief that the topic was too bizarre for TAE. Who knew the standards were so low? .)
All I can say is, this should be good news for those who make it thru the bottleneck. There should be plenty of worms and to few shoes.
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FirstBank Boosts Education Sector, Supports Schools with N10bn Loan
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BOSS OF THE WEEK
Home/Business/FirstBank Conquers Financial Inclusion Challenge with Firstmonie Agents Banking
FirstBank Conquers Financial Inclusion Challenge with Firstmonie Agents Banking
Eric November 19, 2019
By Eric Elezuo
When Nigeria’s foremost bank, FirstBank of Nigeria Plc rolled out drums to celebrate top performers among its over 37, 000 firstmonie banking agents, the reasons were obvious. In the first instance, the bank succeeded in proving that it remains the first name behind the quest to implement financial inclusion in the banking world as well as explain that the gap between the tech savvy and the low literacy clients has been breached. This is because the firstmonie agent network represents the convenient and comfortable alternative for customers that are acquainted with sophisticated digital channels.
Another reason stem from the fact that it has succeeded in looking into the future to create that ecosystem that allows easy financial transaction wherever a customer is in Nigeria.
At the event, FirstBank compensated 37 leading agents with N15, 250, 000.00 as follows; the sum of N250, 000 to 31 agents at the state level; N1, 000, 000 to five agents at the regional level and a whopping N2, 500, 000 to the grand prize winner at the National level. Zayyanu Hassan Ishaq from Abuja emerged the grand prize winner.
FirstBank’s Firstmonie service is providing financial/banking solutions to rural and semi-urban locations across the country. Through this channel, the Bank is providing convenient services that endears trust and provides ease of access to banking products, irrespective of location, literacy levels, familiarity with technology and accessibility to modern infrastructural facilities.
The firstmonie initiative of FirstBank is borne out of the fact that 38 per cent of the adult population in the country is financially excluded. Of this number, according to EFINA 2018 Survey, 41.1 percent are male while 55.9 percent are female. There was need therefore, to get all hands on deck to bring about financial inclusiveness among all and sundry, invariably fostering economic development.
Trancing the origin of firstmonie, the Deputy Managing Director, First Bank of Nigeria Plc, Mr. Francis Gbenga Shobo stated that “It actually started in 2009 when it was just a concept in the bank. We have branches all over nigeria; we are one of the most spread branches in the country. But we felt that there was still an opening out there. It was in 2010 that we launched the firstmomie programme.”
Lending credence, the Group Executive eBusiness and Retail Products, Mr. Chuma Ezirim, confirmed that steps were taken between 2014 and 2017 to give the programme the top of spot status it enjoys today.
“In 2014, we took a decision to change the scheme from wallet base to account base. It took us another two years to test the concept and officially started the pilot in 2017,” Ezirim revealed.
It is worthy of note that the firstmonie initiative had undergone several operating structure changes and value proposition. In December 2017, the bank ran its pilot test with over 400, 000 transactions processed. The success of the first run necessitated its re-launching in 2018.With a key motive of ‘planting community heroes nationwide’, FirstBank has not only succeeded in developing the small and medium scale enterprise sector, but has created independent finance experts and men and women who can hold their own financially.
Giving further details, Managing Director/Chief Executive Officer, First Bank of Nigeria Plc. Dr. Adesola Adeduntan, described how it is FirstBank’s proactive stance to leverage on gaps in the society to provide long lasting solutions beneficial to citizens towards financial inclusion, addressing poverty, hunger, unemployment and reducing crime.
He said: “The key part of our history and our future is about development and economic growth, and the key strength of our franchise is our ability to look at gaps in the society, develop products and services that address that gap. So as an integral part of our strategy, we believe that by significantly working with the Central Bank, we can improve the financial inclusion index of the country. We would, as FirstBank, be assisting this country to address poverty, hunger…thereby also promoting security of life and property because when people are gainfully employed, the implication is that they think less of crime.
He noted that FirstBank’s intention with firstmonie is to try as much as possible to make agents the ‘centre of the financial ecosystem in the country’.
Across the length and breath of the nation, tidings of great joy are the order of the day following the presence of FirstBank’s firstmonie agents, even in the remotest parts of existence. The scheme has eased the stress of trading and has raised financially independent entrepreneurs as well as thoroughbred employers of labour.
In Aiyetoro, a riverine community in Ilaje, Ondo State, where there are no banks, but FirstBank has positively impacted it. A firstmonie agent, Stephen Adeleye, confided that;
“People can easily walk in without having to travel and that has developed a savings habit because we have easy access to the bank and can deposit their money easily,” he said.
Testifying to the positive impact of the scheme, a beneficiary, Tina Farodoye, revealed that “The transaction has really helped my business to grow. I buy my things in bulk and do a transfer from here. And the things I buy from Lagos gives me more gains because they are expensive here.
“Again, Agent Emphraim Osinachi from Obohie, Asa Ukwa West of Abia State explained that people of all ages have embraced the scheme because of its positives, saying that customers are better given attention by the agents as against what is obtainable at the ATMs.
“We serve all ages, from adults to minor. Unlike the ATM machine where there is no assistance, the people feel relaxed here. Sometime ago, armed robbers invaded a house and were able to get only N50 from a home after ransacking the house while the owners were away. The reason is because of the firstmonie agent banking in place now.”
He maintained firstmonie is a veritable option to enforcing the Federal Government policy on cashless economy.
Aliu Adeleye spoke from Lekki-Aja in Lagos, and excitedly narrated how people have come to support and patronise the scheme, stressing that business improved when he added ‘mobile banking transaction using our firstmonie platform’.
“This place is heavily buzzing with transactions, especially in the evenings when the banking halls are already closed. Presently we have about six other locations because of the demands, and they are all doing well,” an elated Adeleye said.
Surajudeen Adebisi Bada from Abeokuta, Ogun State stated that “we open by 8am but people are already lined up by 7am, and there over two hundred customers trying to transfer money and over a thousand trying to collect money. If I look at our data base, I am convinced that we can beat some of the banks.”
Noting the importance of Firstmonie agents, Shobo emphasized that they are the ones the customers go to, to open accounts, take deposits, make payments, sell airtime and all the rest, adding that ‘they are the most critical part of that ecosystem’. He further lauded the CBN for its regulatory role and enablement and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation for their contributions and oversight functions.
“The regulators are very important, and we must give it to the CBN and its governor, Godwin Emefiele; they have done a lot of changes in regulation that have allowed the programme to scale as much as it has, today. A very, very important partner of ours has been the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation; they helped us with grants, advice, and insight of what they had in other countries. We’ve used all that in coming up with the testimonies with which we are running now.”
Today, we have 36, 000 agents, with each having about one or two persons assisting them. We have opened more than 500, 000 accounts, processed more than two trillion transactions through the firstmonie agency, indirect employment in excess of 100, 000 people working across the entire value chain. More than 8, 000 women have been fully empowered servicing different customers, and they can begin to improve for themselves,” he said.
Sustaining the avalanche of positive feedbacks, Kehinde Kudirat Kasali from Ogun State, confessed that ‘FirstBank has been able to help me a lot. This is so that I can stand on my own. I can hold my own anywhere I am, and I appreciate Firstmonie.”
In the words of Uchechi Amogu from Obowo in Imo State, ‘There’s really been a great change in my life. I can tell you that in this very location, sometimes we do up to 200 transactions each day. I was working alone, but now I have employed two other persons.”
From Warri, Delta State, Orode Hesse, said that “Firstmonie has really impacted me; it has empowered me financially, and I have been able to employ six staff; five female and one male. I see firstmonie as a business to employ and empower women.”
Abubakar Aki Bolaji from Abuja puts it this way ‘the nearest bank here is about 15 kilometres away. We have cut the cost of transportation, and we have about 350 footprints here on a daily basis’ exposing a massive influx of customers each passing day.
Conquering harsh terrains and topography, the firstmonie agent banking scheme has reach the nook and crannies of Northern Nigeria and made impacts indelible to neglect.
“We have built up a significant number of firstmonie agents in the Northern parts of the country. A top government officer from Jigawa State told me of a couple of agents at somewhere in Gumel. This is about 70 kilometres to the nearest bank-town. Along the 70 kilometres, he said he saw two agent locations. That’s a testimony of our presence in the North.
“We are not stopping. It’s going to be a marathon; we believe there’s a lot to be done, not just in Nigeria. We also have other locations across Africa. Ghana is of interest to us, and we have started rolling our agency banking in Ghana. The Democratic Republic of Congo, a country of about 80 million people, is also a significant opportunity for us to help Africa, to promote financial inclusion and begin to address poverty across the continent,” Adeduntan said.
The assessment of Mohammed Tatari from Bauchi state seems to summarise the unquantifiable advantage of firstmonie.
He said: “We are thankful for this bank that has come closer to us. Before this time, people travel far just to enjoy banking services, but now firstmonie has brought banking close to them. This firstmonie service is helping people in many ways, as a result, we are experiencing large numbers of people here.”l
“Before firstmonie, goods have to be loaded into vehicles and will not be delivered until money has exchanged hands. But now, we just transfer the money to the supplier and the goods will be delivered without question so this has really changed our lives.”
While the tradition among people is that banks have about 600 locations, FirstBank has 37, 000 locations, and they are present in 99 per cent of the 774 local government areas of the Federation, and there’s no one close to the record. The beauty of the opportunity is that it is being used to impact positively on the society.
The Head, Marketing and Communication, FirstBank Nigeria Plc, Mrs. Folake Ani-Mumuney, was full of praises and encouragement for the Firstmonie agents, urging them to continue in their giant strides while encouraging others to follow suit to further raise the banner of financial reach and inclusion, and the Nigerian economy.
“This is about your future and the growth of your locality and the country in general. Continue to thrive and win, and do not rest on your laurels,” she admonished.
“The unwavering efforts and remarkable contributions by our Firstmonie Agents at promoting financial inclusion in Nigeria is indeed very much appreciated. We remain committed to doing more, strengthening business activities, driving economic growth and development; thereby reducing poverty,” the CEO, Adeduntan concluded.
Life’s a Lot More Easier with FirstBank Cards
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Posts Tagged ‘Sherlock’
The Flickcast – Episode 234: Superman vs. The Release Date
by The Flickcast, Jan 24 2014 // 12:00 PM
It’s that time again, folks. That’s right, a brand new episode of The Flickcast is here and it’s yours for the taking. For free.
That’s right, free. As in free beer. And really, who doesn’t love free beer? Nobody, that’s who. Yeah, we’ve used that example before, but so what? It still works. Anyway. . .
Moving right along, Chris and Joe are back and ready to rock and roll with a whole slew of new and recurring topics. Some of these topics include the change in release date of Superman vs. Batman, Star Wars VII script news, Elementary, the return of Sherlock, fanboys and haters, the true meaning of life and a whole lot more.
No, not really. We just slipped that “true meaning of life” one in to see if you were paying attention.
This week’s picks include Chris’ pick of the novel Pandemic by Scott Sigler and Joe’s pick of the audio version of the novel Redshirts by John Scalzi and read by Wil Wheaton.
Tagged: Batman, Ben Affleck, Benedict Cumberbatch, Comics, DC, Henry Cavill, J.J Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, Martin Freeman, Podcasts, Sherlock, Star Wars Episode VII, Superman, Superman vs. Batman, The Flickcast
The Flickcast – Episode 231: Merry New Year!
by The Flickcast, Jan 3 2014 // 2:00 PM
It’s 2014 and Chris and Joe kick things off correct with a brand new episode of The Flickcast. Yes, even though the holiday hangovers are still in full effect, the boys found time to get together, find a barn (or something) and have a show.
Topics this week include holiday movies, upcoming TV shows for 2014, Guardians of the Galaxy, Man of Steel 2, Lex Luthor casting, beer, flying cars, jetpacks, erectile disfunction and a whole lot more.
Did we mention all the more! Well, there’s a lot of it, as usual. This is a long one.
This week’s picks include Chris’ pick of the novel Wired by Douglas E. Richards and Joe’s pick of the book The Naked Brewer, by Christina Perozzi and Hallie Beaune (aka The Beer Chicks).
Tagged: Benedict Cumberpatch, Douglas E. Richards, Guardians of the Galaxy, James Gunn, Michael Rooker, Movies, Sherlock, The Beer Chicks, The Naked Brewer, TV, Wired
‘Sherlock’ Star Benedict Cumberbatch Says There Will Be a Season 4
What could be better than a third season of the BBC’s awesome Sherlock series starring Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman as a modern-day Holmes and Watson? Why, a fourth season of course.
That’s right, during and interview with UK’s Radio Times today, Cumberbatch said he and co-star Freeman have agreed to do two seasons after Season 2.
“We’ve agreed to two more series but I could get into trouble for saying that,” Cumberbatch said during the interview. “All I know at the moment is I’m doing these three and another three.” Which, translated to how we do series here in the U.S. means he’s currently filming season three of three episodes and then would go on to do a fourth season of three episodes.
He also said in the interview that he and Freeman would like to do more seasons, but as always it depends on their schedules and that of co-creator Steven Moffat, who also runs the BBC’s Doctor Who.
So yeah, that’s pretty cool. We could all use more seasons of this excellent show. And more Cumberbatch and Freeman isn’t a bad thing either.
Look for season three of Sherlock to hit the U.S. later this year.
Posted in: BBC · News · TV
Tagged: BBC, BBC America, Benedict Cumberbatch, Doctor Who, Martin Freeman, Sherlock, Steven Moffat
Film Score Friday: ‘Sherlock’ Series 1 & 2 by David Arnold and Michael Price
by Jonathan Weilbaecher, Apr 27 2012 // 3:45 PM
My affinity for Doctor Who has to be well-known at this point in time, but there is another Brit series that really floats my boat these days. Coincidentally, or more likely not, both shows are currently headed by the same mad genius, Steven Moffat.
Sherlock co-stars one of my favorite british actors, Martin Freeman, and introduced me to the wonder that is Benedict Cumberbatch. But the show has another secret weapon that I am excited to dig into today, a wonderful score by David Arnold and Michael Price.
The name David Arnold should ring a few bells for a few of you, he is most well-known for his many recent James Bond scores, in fact he the second most frequent Bond composer right after the legend, John Barry. Aside from Bong, Arnold also has several other geek cred credits, most notably writing the scores to Independence Day and Startgate.
Posted in: Action · Adaptation · BBC · Drama · Film Music Reviews · Film Score Friday · Music · News · Reviews · TV
Tagged: BBC, Benedict Cumberbatch, David Arnold, film music review, Film Score Friday, Martin Freeman, Michael Price, score, Series 1, Series 2, Sherlock, Soundtrack
Lucy Liu to Play Watson In New CBS ‘Sherlock Holmes’ Series
by Jonathan Weilbaecher, Feb 28 2012 // 12:15 PM
In case you were not aware, there is a brilliant modernization of Sherlock Holmes on TV right now. Sherlock, the BBC series, tells the tale of the titular detective in a modern London, complete with text messaging, internet teleconferencing and Watson’s blog!
CBS, excited by the prospect of the most famous detective’s ability to work in a modern setting, has set forth on their own take on a 21st century Holmes, and they just nabbed their Watson.
According to Deadline the role of Sherlock’s faithful aide is being filled by a rather surprising choice:
Lucy Liu is set to play Sherlock Holmes’ sidekick in CBS’ drama pilot Elementary, whose tweaks to Arthur Conan Doyle’s classic include switching Watson’s gender to female. The project, written by Robert Doherty, is set in present day and stars Jonny Lee Miller as eccentric Brit Sherlock Holmes, a former consultant to Scotland Yard whose addiction problems led him to a rehab center in New York City.
On one hand, the concept of Jonny Lee Miller and Lucy Liu running around New York as Holmes and Watson actually sounds crazy enough to work. On the other hand, we might be reaching a point of Sherlock Holmes overload, with a TV show and movie series already very much alive.
We at The Flickcast have our fingers crossed that this adaptation goes just bug nutty enough to work along side Sherlock, not against it.
Posted in: Adaptation · Announcements · BBC · Casting · CBS · News · TV
Tagged: Announcments, Casting, CBS, Elementary, Jonny Lee Miller, Lucy Liu, News, Pilot, Sherlock, Sherlock Holmes, TV, Watson
‘Sherlock’ Star Benedict Cumberbatch Might Soon Be Facing Off Against Doctor Who
Steven Moffat is one of the best television minds working today. He is in charge of two of the most interesting, well written and generally fun shows on television, Doctor Who and Sherlock, and he might fancy bringing a bit of both together.
The Express is reporting that Cumberbatch is the desired choice to play the most recent incarnation of The Master, a renegade Time Lord who often butts heads with the good Doctor:
“It’s fitting that the Doctor comes face to face with his ultimate enemy, The Master, for the 50th anniversary and it’s felt Benedict is the perfect choice if schedules can work… Fans will love the idea of the man who plays Sherlock Holmes taking on the Doctor’’
This year Cumberbatch was in two highly regarded films stateside, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and War Horse, and the next year and a half will see him in at least two major blockbusters, Star Trek 2 and The Hobbit. So there is genuine concern about his upcoming availability for a multiple episode or even season long arc on the show.
The 50th anniversary year of the longest running sci-fi show in history is expected to be huge. No doubt bringing back the Master is only the tip of the iceberg of plans the Grand Moff and BBC have in store for us in 2013.
Posted in: Action · BBC · Casting · Doctor Who · News · Rumor · Sci-Fi · TV
Tagged: BBC, Benedict Cumberbatch, Casting, Doctor Who, Matt Smith, News, Rumor, Sherlock, Steven Moffat, The Doctor, The Master, TV
‘Sherlock’ Gets A Third Season As CBS Preps It’s Own US Modernization
by Jonathan Weilbaecher, Jan 17 2012 // 3:00 PM
Sherlock Holmes is a popular character these days, between a popular film franchise and an acclaimed BBC TV show, there are several ways to enjoy his particular brand of inductive reasoning. So popular in fact that BBC has ordered up a third round of Sherlock episodes, according to the trustworthy official twitter of show creator Steven Moffat.
Add that popularity with a recent trend of taking quality foreign programming and re-purposing it for American audiences and it will come as no surprise that CBS has ordered their own Holmes pilot as well. Elementary is planned as a modern take on the classic detective, putting Holmes in the middle of New York City.
This is not the first time a network wanted to put a Holmesian character on the mean streets of the big apple. Law and Order spin-off Criminal Intent was originally conceived as a way to put a detective like Sherlock in the Law and Order universe. That worked well, but the character was only loosely based on Holmes, it will be interesting to see how the character fits into the CBS style drama mold.
Posted in: Adaptation · Announcements · BBC · CBS · Movies · News · TV
Tagged: Adaptation, BBC, Benedict Cumberbatch, CBS, Elementary, Guy Ritchie, Martin Freeman, Modernization, Pilot, Sherlock, Steven Moffat, TV, US Version
Comic Review: ‘Moriarty #8’
by Jason Inman, Jan 12 2012 // 9:00 AM
It has never been a hotter time to be a fan of Sherlock Holmes. The old chap now has two blockbuster Hollywood movies. Plus, Sherlock has a highly rated and successful BBC television series. The only thing he is missing is a comic book.
His mortal enemy Professor James Moriarty is brilliantly featured in his own series published by Image comics called, what else, Moriarty. It is the beginning of the 20th century, the dawn of World War 1, Sherlock Holmes has been dead for twenty years, and Moriarty has been drafted into service by MI5.
This issue is part four of the storyline called The Lazarus Tree. A full-scale riot breaks out in the streets of Kyauktada, and the British authorities sweep in to take control. The mystery begins to unravel, and Moriarty becomes aware of the lurking threat of Moran’s sniper rifle hunting him in the shadows.
The characterization of Moriarty is brilliant. He is essentially an evil Sherlock Holmes. He sees common details that people miss, he is a brilliant doctor, and he is even a brilliant professor, dealing with concepts and theories that are way beyond his time. The major problem with the character is that even though he interesting; the writing never truly gives us a reason to like him.
Posted in: Comic Reviews · Comics · Editorial and Opinion · Features · Image Comics · Indie · Reviews
Tagged: Anthony Diecidue, Comic Review, Comics, Daniel Corey, Image Comics, Moriarty, Moriarty #8, Sherlock, Sherlock Holmes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
British Super Hero Series ‘Misfits’ Returning for a Fourth Season
by Matt Raub, Jan 3 2012 // 9:00 AM
For those who are stuck in the box of US television, and have yet to venture into the exciting world of British TV, you’ve missed quite a bit. Sure, there are the hits like Doctor Who and Sherlock, but one show that doesn’t get nearly as much play as it should is the E4 series Misfits.
Just finishing up its 3rd season, the show follows a band of teen troublemakers who, while stuck on a chain gang for community service, are struck by lighting, granting them superpowers to do whatever they choose. We wish that was all the show was about, but it’s managed to become one of the best shows on TV in only 21 episodes.
This past season saw the departure of the show’s lead comedic relief, Robert Sheehan, and the introduction of This is England’s Joseph Gilgun. Now, with two more characters leaving the show in the season 3 finale, we can expect to see the show make a return for a fourth year.
We don’t want to spoil anything for those who haven’t caught up, but you can catch up on Misfits over on HULU.com. Not even the show’s creator has a clue where the band of juvenile delinquents are headed next year, but we definitely know that it will involve plenty of superpowers, and tons of swearing.
Posted in: Action · Announcements · BBC · Comedy · Drama · News · Sci-Fi · TV · TV Previews · TV Ratings
Tagged: Antonia Thomas, BBC, Doctor Who, Iwan Rheon, Joseph Gilgun, Lauren Socha, Matthew McNulty, Misfits, Nathan Stewart-Jarrett, Robert Sheehan, Sherlock
Benedict Cumberbatch Possibility as Next Doctor Who
In a recent interview promoting the new BBC mini series Sherlock, Benedict Cumberbatch candidly implies his interest in becoming the next Doctor Who. With current Doctor Who show runner Steven Moffat also heading up the Sherlock mini-series, the possibility is much higher than with most similar rumors.
During the interview with Digital Spy, the interviewer unassumingly asked if Cumberbunch had any interest in appearing on an episode of Doctor Who, to which he responded that he wouldn’t want to be in an episode. Then the interviewer realized that Cumberbatch was asserting that he didn’t want to just have a single episode run and asked if he wanted to be the doctor, and with a sly smile he responds with a quizzical maybe.
Cumberbatch then explains that after Sherlock, it would be more fitting to have a substantial role in his next project. The video is open to interpretation, as Cumberbatch has previously been rumored to be Moffat’s choice for a role as The Master, but he does seem to imply that he wouldn’t be in a supporting role if he were to join the cast of Doctor Who.
Whether this lends any credence to the rumor that Matt Smith is looking to leave the role after next season has also yet to be determined. One thing is for sure, the bravado I saw Cumberbatch display as he responded to the question assures me that he will no doubt be having an impact on Doctor Who sooner rather than later.
How do you feel about the possibility of Matt Smith leaving Doctor Who? Do you think Benedict Cumberbatch would make a fitting replacement?
To see Cumberbatch’s response check out the video after the jump and for all your Doctor Who news stick with The Flickcast.
Posted in: BBC · Casting · Rumor · Sci-Fi · TV
Tagged: Adam Smith, Benedict Cumberbatch, Doctor Who, Sherlock, Steven Moffat
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Classic Cinema Corner: Nicholas Ray's Johnny Guitar and How Joan Freakin' Crawford Helped Untame the Not So Wild West
"There was theatre (Griffith), poetry (Murnau), painting (Rossellini), dance (Eisenstein), music (Renoir). Henceforward there is cinema. And the cinema is Nicholas Ray." - Jean-Luc Godard
I watched Johnny Guitar again last night and all I have to say is - let the gushing begin. Seriously, Johnny Guitar is what cinema was, once upon a time, and what it still should be. Combining Nicholas Ray's unique talent for visually luscious filmmaking and stark raving mad narrative, and with dialogue that is beautifully over the top and a not-so-veiled stand against McCarthyism and Hollywood blacklisting, the favourite director of the French New Wave, and one of the reasons behind the auteur theory coming into effect, creates a genre redefining of the western. Ray's film can be quite ambiguous when it comes to who is wearing the white hat and who the black, and two years before John Ford's The Searchers, can be seen as one of the first revisionist westerns. And on top of all that - Joan Freakin' Crawford!
The film that Truffaut once called "Hallucinatory Cinema", Johnny Guitar is almost magical in its approach to what film is, and again, still should be, dammit. Watching it on the big screen (as I finally had the opportunity to do a few years ago, after years of adoring it sitting on the couch in my living room) one is mesmerized by each and every frame of this sexy, delicious, ravenous piece of film history. Nary a false note is heard - a thing that can be said of only a handful of the thousands and thousands and thousands of films ever made. Derek Malcolm of The Guardian said of the film, "This baroque and deliriously stylised Western, along with Fritz Lang's Rancho Notorious and Raoul Walsh's Pursued, proves it is possible to lift the genre into the realms of Freudian analysis, political polemic and even Greek tragedy." Amen brother. I agree that Rancho Notorious (starring another aging but still outspoken iconic figure of the cinema, Marlene Dietrich) is the other psychologically powerful (and psychologically ambiguous) early revisionist western of the time. And on top of all that - Joan Freakin' Crawford!
Other westerns of the time did indeed delve deeper than that of the typical genre-specific Hopalong Cassidy territory of the earlier mode - The Searchers is a Freudian masterpiece for sure and the films of Anthony Mann (and to a lesser degree Budd Boetticher) have stretched the ideas of right and wrong to whole other ballparks - but it was/is Johnny Guitar that puts them all to shame, not only in its sheer gorgeousness of set, costume and photography (a delectably gorgeous work, inside and out), its brilliantly subversive screenplay ("written" by Philip Yordan as a front for blacklisted writer Ben Maddow) taking on much taboo subject matter for it's not so hidden background meanings (taking on the subjects that were the reasons behind Maddow's wrong-headed blacklisting in the first place), and/or its oh so richly textured (and, like the aforementioned Rancho Notorious two years earlier, verging on camp) performances but also in its power to transcend even the very cinema Godard spoke of and become one with the gods so to speak. Hey, I told you I was going to gush! Oh, and on top of all that - Joan Freakin' Crawford!
Yes, let's finally get around to Joan Freakin' Crawford. Ray's film also stars Sterling Hayden (as the titular guitar-swingin' anti-gun man), Ward Bond, Ben Cooper, Scott Brady, Royal Dano, John Carradine, Ernest Borgnine, and Mercedes McCambridge (who would steal the picture if not for Joan), but this is Joan Crawford's movie. No doubt about that. A comeback of sorts for Crawford, Johnny Guitar, no matter how masculine the western genre typically is, is indeed whole heartedly Joan's picture to win or lose. The film's tagline reads: "Gun-Queen of the Arizona Frontier! ...and her kind of men !!!" The auteur theory aside for a moment - after all this is really Nick Ray's picture to win or lose (and he wins!) - it was Crawford who bought the rights to the novel by Roy Chanslor and it was Crawford who put the whole kit and kaboodle together and in motion in the first place, and it was Crawford who was taking a chance on reinventing herself after years of artistic and professional struggle in the male-dominated studio system of the day. Derek Malcolm (again) said of Crawford, "What she does in the film transcends either camp or melodrama. It's like watching a legend at work throwing off her previous baggage and gaining a new acting skin." Perhaps this was the last of her great pictures (though her bloody duet with gal pal Bette Davis a few years later may beg to differ) but nonetheless, Malcolm's words ring true. We won't even bother going into her on set feud with costar Mercedes McCambridge (wasn't there always one of these?) or the divaesque insistence on having all her close-ups filmed in studio where the lighting could be better staged. After all, it's Joan Freakin' Crawford - what else could, or should, one expect?
And sure, even though I did write above that nary a false note is heard in Johnny Guitar, there may indeed be flaws (you didn't think I could really be uncritical did you?) but someone once said (it may have been Truffaut, not sure) that every movie has flaws and it is in these flaws that is born something special. Okay, I may have made that up, who knows (I do remember reading this somewhere in one of my myriad of cinema books, but could not find it referenced anywhere online), but it is something to believe in. Film lovers are sick people (Truffaut really did say that!) and that can be proven in the fact that we, the aforementioned sick film lovers, can love a film not in spite of its flaws and blemishes but because of them. Sick. But for now, let's forget all the critical and analytical mumbo jumbo and end on a much simpler note. To quote Johnny Guitar himself (see, it's not all about Joan after all) - "There`s only two things in this world that a real man needs. A cup of coffee and a good smoke." This post has been brought to you by the Letter J. Click on the banner below to have that one explained. That's it gang. See ya 'round the web.
Posted by Kevyn Knox at 8:37 AM
Labels: A to Z Challenge, Classic Cinema, Joan Crawford, Movies, Nicholas Ray, Westerns
Birgit April 11, 2014 at 11:15 AM
Don't kill me....I have not seen this movie-Gulp, Aghast! It is always on my 10 ten and I never get around to it. I am not a Joan fan but appreciate her acting talent. I know that Mercedes got a standing O by the crew for a scene she did and afterwards, Joan would manipulate things to bother her. Mercedes blames Joan Crawford for hurting her career afterwards out of jealousy-Ahh gotta love those film nuts:)
Kevyn Knox April 11, 2014 at 11:24 AM
Don't worry, I won't kill you... yet. Actually, Johnny Guitar probably isn't all that well known of a film outside of cinephiliac circles. Yeah, Joan could be quite the beast to fellow actresses. McCambridge's career never did get all that big, and that could have been because of Joan (wouldn't surprise me) but her voice, as Satan in The Exorcist, does live on in scary-as-Hell fashion.
Thanx for stopping by. Glad to have a seeming regular 'round these parts.
Marry June 19, 2016 at 11:22 AM
I have witnessed so many guitarists become significantly more frustrated shortly after playing the guitar for some time. The minute the underlying cause musicalstudy of the main problem was traced, it was found that so many had missed or ignored the basic principles of guitar playing.
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What are Antisperm Antibodies ?
What are Antisperm Antibodies
Antisperm antibodies (ASA) are immune system proteins that may develop in the body of men or women to target and kill sperms. This condition is also known as immunological infertility and may make it impossible for couples to have a child.
Men generally develop antisperm antibodies from inflammatory conditions of the reproductive tract. About 8-10% of men develop the autoimmune condition in the blood or seminal fluid after a prostate infection, exposure to heavy metals, torsion, testicular cancer, vasectomy, or injury to the testicles. Scientists also suggest that oxidative stress may be a cause underlying immune infertility.
Women may develop resistance to sperm in response to an allergic reaction to semen. If this occurs, the immune system cells in the woman’s vagina may identify sperm as invaders and trigger an immune response against them.
Detecting Antisperm Antibodies
Antisperm antibodies may be antisperm agglutinating antibodies (cause the sperm to clump) or antisperm immobilizing antibodies (affect sperm motility, either completely or prevent forward progression such that sperm only shows a shaking movement (non-progressive motility)).
ASA tests may be direct or indirect. Direct ASA testing evaluates the semen for antibodies that may cause infertility. Indirect testing involves testing for antibodies in blood serum.
Antisperm antibody tests detect antibodies that may be attacking sperm in the blood, semen, or vaginal discharge. Men are advised to collect the semen sample after two days and no more than five days have elapsed following the last ejaculation. Results are generally available within 24 to 36 hours.
Clinical tests available to diagnose ASA include mixed agglutination reaction (MAR), direct immunobead test (DIT), indirect MAR or IBT, sperm immobilization test (SIT), tray agglutination test (TAT), flow cytometry, and ELISA.
Antisperm Antibodies and Male Infertility
Antisperm antibodies adversely affect certain sperm parameters. ASA may lead to a decline in sperm motility (movement and activity), liquefaction time (time taken for sperm to become liquid), and sperm concentration (number of million sperm per milliliter of semen). However, they may not necessarily affect sperm volume or morphology.
According to findings from scientific research, ASA also affects testosterone levels in men as the seminal fluid and serum of infertile men contains lower testosterone levels.
Further, ASA may cause a premature acrosome reaction in infertile men with immunological infertility, rendering the sperm incapable of fusing with the oocyte. They may also lead to subtle DNA damage that may not be corrected by the DNA repair mechanism.
Call us now to get your semen test or sperm DFI test done!
Treatment Options for Antisperm Antibodies
Treatment options for antisperm antibodies are limited. Men who have developed the condition may be advised to take medication that lowers their immune response. Treatment with cyclosporine or corticosteroids is generally the chosen course of treatment.
Physicians mostly advise assisted reproductive techniques such as gamete intrafallopian transfer, intrauterine insemination (IUI), intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI), or in vitro fertilization (IVF). Other laboratory techniques that resolve the condition include immunomagnetic sperm separation, sperm washing, immunobeads, and proteolytic enzyme treatment. Treatment techniques are highly variable and may differ in terms of costs and efficacy. Therefore, couples must acquire adequate information about the method, its side effects, and the expected results of their chosen treatment.
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Home › Forum › OFF-TOPIC THREAD 17: DINOSAURS ARE THE SHIT
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OFF-TOPIC THREAD 17: DINOSAURS ARE THE SHIT
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Deathdrop
Yautja
HAI, GURRRRRRRRRRRLLLZ. We were discussing the Doom Chickens, if I'm not mistaken.
OFF-TOPIC THREAD
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 2: DIE HARDER!!
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 3: WANKING IN THE 3rd DIMENSION!!!
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 4: ELECTRIC BUNGALOW
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 5: LOL WUT?
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 6: THE RAPTURE THAT WASN'T
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 7: PRECEDING 8!!!!!
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 8: FOLLOWING 7!!!!!
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 9: YOU KNOW, WHATEVER...
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 10: DECADE OF DICK-JOKES
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 11: MY MEDS STOPPED WORKING
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 12: DID YOU BRING YOUR 3-D GLASSES!?!
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 13: TITTLE TO BE DETERMINED
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 14: I CAN HAZ INTERWEBZ?
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 15: I FORGET WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
OFF-TOPIC THREAD 16: FUCK
Dronehive
It isn't in the off topic, and its been like a year since Planes of Nightmares.
And when I spent quite a while putting my RP together, nobody joined.
Kaajin
Ah, sorry. Didn't know that, but I think that it would be cool if there was an RPG for AvP. Haven't ever really played it before and I think it would be cool, heh. Sorry to hear your RP didn't catch speed. I would be mad too.
DeathWraith
I WARNED YOU, DRONEHIVE! I TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE LIKE THAT! IT WASN'T THE RIGHT TIME! YOU DIDN'T LISTEN!
So anyway, potential allies for me in this one are all of the non-human characters. Basically Therhea hates everything that has ever historically threatened or betrayed the elves. At the top of this list are humans, dwarfs and gnomes. If you are any of those and she knows it, she will try to kill you on sight and if she fails, she will attempt to pursue you. She also doesn't like orcs and trolls because of their primitive mannerisms and she's a huge fucking bigot so she generally doesn't like small or ugly things. She likes tall, beautiful, strong creatures and to her this includes the Tauren, who are just bipedal cows. The basic physiological features required to win her favour at first sight are being bipedal, being tall and proportioned mostly like a ridiculously attractive hominid and either being furry, having blueish skin, or having glowing eyes.
READ THE RULES
A song about me and skull_ripper that I wrote:
"Yeah, uh, yea yeah, uh, yeah, crackers gonna crack yeah, uh, yeah..."
(thats what I have so far hope u like it)
What if they are non-human, but they don't meet her requirements?
Then she will probably think you're an animal and try to avoid you because there's no point engaging wild animals for no reason.
EDIT: Alright, I've taken SR's two puny creatures to be my character and the dead guy in front of her, I hope this doesn't mean that the RP can never continue for me because he's never gonna post again.
Guys plez. Make those posts a bit longer. At this rate, we're gonna get to posts as long as "He winked."
EDIT: So I've found an old homework notebook of mine from when I was 12 and the compositions I wrote are eerily similar in style to Bloo's off-topic RPG posts.
badapple24
Yeah aaha sorry about that DW I was kinda preoccupied writing those.
And thats fucked up, but it seems rather intriguing
I'm very particular in my words~Pagan min
Veteran Runner Of the Shadow Serpents
-Bloo-
I'm really ecstatic that I'm somehow channeling 12-year-old DW through my off-topic RPG posts. Was he more like Cars or Luigi?
MODERATOR / LEADER OF THE SHADOW SERPENTS
Like Cars, of course. I feel like it was a much better writing style than my current try-hard style. A complete disregard for the rules of common sense and no attempt to impress, but rather to confuse and amuse. I think it's because it was original. I hadn't read more than 90% of a book in total by the time I was 12 and I hadn't been influenced by any noble prize nominee's style yet. It was pure off the top of my head stupid writing, just like Kim Young-Ha says it should be.
It's a really fun way to write. It's somehow become my default writing style whenever I'm not trying to be serious or actually good.
I'm honestly incapable of writing like that si I find it pretty impressive.
It's pretty awful in the sense that I can never present it to a publisher and realistically expect them to publish anything like that because of how nonsensical it can be, but it's still the most enjoyable and natural way (for me) to write.
Alien Vs Predator Books
Like AvP Universe
AvP : Requiem
AvP : Extinction
Alien³
Alien Trilogy
Colonial Marines
Predator : CJ
:: Associates ::
AvP Unknown
Planete Alien
Prometheus-Movie
The Alien vs Predator - Universe website doesn't own or represent any of the trademarks.
Alien vs Predator, Alien, Predator and all related marks are trademarks of 20th Century Fox or of any of its corporations.
All trademarks and copyrights are owned by their respective owners
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HOME : Pre-Columbian Art : Art of Panama : Cocle Terracotta Pedestal Bowl
Cocle Terracotta Pedestal Bowl - PF.3533
Origin: Panama
Circa: 800 AD to 1200 AD
Dimensions: 21" (53.3cm) high
Collection: Pre-Columbian
Medium: Terracotta
Archaeological excavations in the Cocle Province located in Central Panama have revealed that an ancient civilization once inhabited these lands. The findings suggested that the so-called Cocle culture arose around 500 A.D. and lasted until about 1000 A.D. Although their dating is roughly contemporaneous with the Diquis culture to the north in modern day Costa Rica, the art they left behind suggests that they were a unique, independent civilization. Cocle art, which consists primarily of unslipped or buff slipped pottery and terracotta sculptures, is distinguished by their polychrome hues and lively asymmetrical motifs which often include animal themes.
Sculpted in Ancient Central America, this white- slipped terracotta pedestal is elegantly decorated, with the top slate depicting an Ancient Costa Rican mythical creature. The fluid orange lines portray the form and the swift movement of the creature, and short black lines indicating the eyes, arms, and scale-like forms of the body. Its dramatic expression is surely to grab anyone's attention and it is interesting to wonder what kind of mythical world from which this creature originated. The support of the pedestal is enhanced with colorful, geometric patterns. It is divided into two bands--the top is decorated with large, black x shapes and the bottom with black v shapes. Most likely used in rituals and ceremonies, this pedestal most likely had a specific meaning and significance. Perhaps it supported a ritual offering which was to please the gods. As we contemplate this wonderful sculpture, we deeply appreciate its fascinating cultural history and its breath-taking artistic quality. - (PF.3533)
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Even Buffett Isn't Perfect: Chapter 7
The public often views Buffett as pro-shareholder and a fan of good corporate governance. But Janjigian points out that Berkshire falls short on several fronts when it comes to corporate governance.
For example, governance experts suggest that a company's CEO and Chairman position should be occupied by different individuals, but this is not the case at Berkshire where Buffett holds both roles.
Berkshire (until recently) also didn't meet governance standards when it came to the number of independent directors on its board. As recently as 2002, the board of Berkshire consisted of only 7 individuals. There were three Buffetts on this board, along with Charles Munger and Richard Olson (a partner at Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP). Therefore, clearly 5 of the 7 board members were not independent.
In fairness to Buffett, however, he disagrees with the definition of "independent" when it comes to directors. Buffett believes that while those whose association with the company results in their receiving a large portion of their income from fees for being directors are regarded as independent by the experts, they are actually the least useful. Instead, Buffett would rather have directors with a substantial investment in the company, since these individuals are most likely to be on the side of shareholders when it comes to company matters.
Buffett has also failed in his succession planning according to Janjigian. For most of Berkshire's existence under Buffett, it has not had a plan in place. It should be noted that currently Berkshire does have clear succession planning, but it took an NYSE requirement to get this process started. Even so, no one person will do Buffett's job, as his job will be split between someone who runs the business, and someone who runs the investment operation. As such, in all of Buffett's years at the top of Berkshire, he has not trained anyone who can truly take over his position.
International Investors Beware
RACK Up The Losses
Inflation On The Horizon
Signs That Mr. Market Is Offering Great Prices
Seeing Into The Future
Lessons To Be Learned From Japan
Buybacks Still Exist?
Free Book For Readers
Margins Levelling Off
Industry Profitability
Hammond Powers Up
Update Complete!
The Media Goes Too Far
Can't Forget Corporate Governance
Hitting Up The CAS
From The Mailbag: PCAR
Value Investors Do Add Value
Trade Deficit Levels
It Matters If You're Black Or White
Value Investors: Take Heart
Canam Building Up
Build-A-Bear Renegotiates
Even Buffett Isn't Perfect: Introduction
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Get Feed from Amazon.com
Order our Feed Study Guide
Part 1, Moon: Your Face Is Not an Organ; Impact; Juice
Part 1, Moon: The Nose Grid; The Moon Is in the House of Boring
Part 2, Eden: Awake; College Try; Boring; Still Boring
Part 2, Eden: Missing the Feed; Cache & Carry; Night. And Boring; Father
Part 2, Eden: Salad days. w/ Sneeze Guard; The Garden; Dead Language; Release
Part 3, Utopia: Normal; Undervalued Truffle; The Others In Mal; Nudging
Part 3, Utopia: Lose the Chemise; Sniffling; A New Place; The Dimples of Delglacey
Part 3, Utopia: Lift; A Question of Moral; Observe the Remarkable Verdure; A Day in the Country
Part 3, Utopia: Nudging Again; The Real Thing; Fight and Flight; So Much To Do
Part 3, Utopia: Seashore; Limbo in Prayer; Flat Hope; Our Duty to the Party
Part 4, Slumberland: 52.9%; 87.3%; 87.1%; 87.1%; 86.5%; 52.0%; 82.4%
Part 4, Slumberland: 57.2%; 54.1%; 51.5%, Summertime; The Deep; 4.6%; 4.6%
Feed - Part 4, Slumberland: 80.9%; 78.6%; 77.8%; 76.3%; 76.2%; 76.2%; 59.3% Summary & Analysis
Matthew Tobin Anderson
This Study Guide consists of approximately 36 pages of chapter summaries, quotes, character analysis, themes, and more - everything you need to sharpen your knowledge of Feed.
Part 4, Slumberland: 80.9%; 78.6%; 77.8%; 76.3%; 76.2%; 76.2%; 59.3% Summary
In 80.9%, Violet sends her list of things she wants to do via the feed. She wants to do things like go to the mountains and stay in a hotel with Titus. She wants to dance and go under the sea. She wants to have children and grandchildren and tell them about her homosexual ancestor who fled Germany in World War II. She wants to not remember the hours of being in the hospital, being sick and Titus only coming to see her to feel like a good person.
In 78.6%, Titus is in school, staring at a hologram for a teacher. Due to budget cuts, alive teachers were cut and holograms teach instead. He reads Violet's list in fragments. He stares at the back of a girl's sweater. He says the hologram looks like an empty shell.
In 77.8%, Violet chats Titus and...
(read more from the Part 4, Slumberland: 80.9%; 78.6%; 77.8%; 76.3%; 76.2%; 76.2%; 59.3% Summary)
More summaries and resources for teaching or studying Feed.
Feed from BookRags. (c)2020 BookRags, Inc. All rights reserved.
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Gaul leads soccer to fast start
By Scout on September 16, 2011
On the first day of classes this semester, a professor asked senior soccer player Bryan Gaul what he planned to do after graduation. Gaul said he wanted to play professional soccer and the professor laughed off Gaul’s remarks.
But nobody’s laughing anymore after Gaul has helped Bradley to a top-25 national ranking and a 4-0-2 record heading into this weekend’s Hotels at Grand Prairie Classic at Shea Stadium.
Gaul has led the Braves on the field with five goals, two assists, 12 points and three game-winning goals, in addition to being a leader of the team off of the field.
“Since I was about nine or ten, I’ve really wanted to go pro,” Gaul said. “I’ve been playing for so long and putting the time in and time out of soccer.”
Although it is difficult to reach the professional ranks of any sport, Gaul’s coaches believe he has what it takes to succeed at the next level.
“He does that thing that all great players do, make the players around him better,” said coach Jim DeRose. “When he gets the ball, he is just as electric as they come.”
Gaul, a forward from Naperville, has already been named a preseason All-American and national player of the week by CollegeSoccerNews.com and TopDrawerSoccer.com.
“Anytime, it doesn’t matter what sport, when you have a big-time scorer, he draws the attention of other players and confines their own games,” DeRose said. “He draws focus but still produces points.”
Gaul led his high school, Neuqua Valley, to a state tournament runner-up finish while earning all-state honors from both the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun. He decided to play at Bradley after it earned its first-ever NCAA Tournament win and advanced to the national quarterfinals.
“I chose Bradley because I loved the stadium, I liked the team, they had a really good tradition and I wanted to be a part of it,” Gaul said.
Gaul expects his team to expand on their NCAA Tournament berth from last year and earn their first NCAA Tournament win since the 2007 season.
“We are building off of last year,” Gaul said. “We were really good last year but I think we are very good this year. We have more chemistry and just have a better team.”
Although Gaul has led the team in many statistical categories, he is also leading the Braves in numerous immeasurable ways.
“He’s willing to change his game if people are trying to take him out of the game,” DeRose said. “He’s not selfish to the point where he always wants to go be a ball magnet, he knows to drift away and take players away.”
While Gaul has created many highlight reel plays and scored game-winning goals in Bradley’s fast start to the season, coach DeRose’s favorite memory of Gaul hails from the team’s spring trip to Barbados.
“When you see the little kids go ‘oohh and ahhh’ and they watch him with the ball and all of a sudden – he was wearing number seven in Barbados – and you can hear all of the Bajans go ‘number seven,’ ‘number seven’.”
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Childs amongst boys: junior forward takes charge to lead Braves to victory
LaHood discusses bipartisan politics
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NDC supporters urged not to be discouraged
23rd Dec 2016 | Source: Ghanaian Times
Mr. Japheth Baidoo, Western Regional Organiser of the National Democratic Congress (NDC), has urged party supporters and sympathisers not to be deterred by the electoral defeat, but work extra hard to make the party attractive.
He noted that the results of the 2016 polls were not anticipated and some NDC followers had not recovered from the electoral defeat.
Mr Baidoo said this in Sekondi on Monday at a press conference to respond to claims by the New Patriotic Party (NPP) regional executives that there were anomalies in the results announced by the Electoral Commission from five constituencies in the region.
He alleged that the NPP regional executives were making those claims just to attract the attention of the President-elect, Nana Akufo-Addo, in order for him to acknowledge their efforts and probably appoint them into his government.
It would be recalled that the Regional Secretary of the NPP, Mr Charles Bissue, recently told the media that the party would challenge the parliamentary results in five constituencies in court because the results declared by the EC did not tally with theirs.
They include the results from Aowin, Wassa Amenfi Central, Ellembelle, Suaman and Wassa East constituencies.
He said although the NDC-administration under President John Dramani Mahama performed creditably to deserve another term, the party had accepted the results in good faith and would mobilise its members to re-capture political power in 2020.
He entreated the rank and file of the party to refrain from the blame-game and misguided comments that could divide its front, saying, “You should be cautious with the kind of comments you make in the media so that it does not create rancour in the party”.
Mr Baidoo, who was also in-charge of the party’s operations for the 2016 elections, took responsibility for the party’s defeat in the region.
The NDC lost grounds in the parliamentary election which saw its parliamentary seats reduced from 18 to10 while the NPP’s seat increased from eight to 16.
When asked about an alleged misappropriation of election funds by the party’s campaign team, he said the team utilised the resources allocated to it judiciously and, therefore, dismissed claims that the grassroots supporters of the party did not get their fair share of the resources. – GNA
Prosper Africa: Registration Open, Tunis
We have no support for secessionist
No project abandoned in Biakoye - DCE
The island at risk of going under water
Youth cautioned against politics of insults
ECOWAS,UN Restate Commitment To Peace WA
Electoral Register just needs upgrade
Pan-African exhibition to herald art scene
Threats against Nigerien, Western Facilities
The fake medicines in Africa that can kill
Stay at post until you hand over
ASHYBEC-GH salute President-elect
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2019 Habitat Build
We are again partnering with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, and United Church to build multiple townhome one-bedroom, single-level, handicapped-accessible units in Habitat's Crescent Magnolia neighborhood for Seniors.
Our scheduled church work (Satur)days for 2019 began Saturday, 14 September, and will continue for all Saturdays (except Thanksgiving and Christmas weekends) through the end of the year. We need BOTH experienced and inexperienced construction folk (hammering, painting, landscaping, etc.) as well as lunch providers for the days that the Community Church provides lunch for the partnership. Youth 16 & 17yo can volunteer with some work task restrictions (and, of course, a parent/guardian signed Habitat waiver form). Those 18yo and older can do it all. If you are looking for more info on Habitat volunteer opportunities or to be added to church Habitat email list, please contact Dave Morgan using the purple "Contact Us!" button above on this page.
2018 Habitat Build
We are partnering with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, and United Church to build townhome units in Habitat's Crescent Magnolia neighborhood for Seniors.
We again partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church to build a home in Habitat's Tinnen Woods neighborhood.
We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church to build a home on Whitaker Street in Chapel Hill's Northside neighborhood.
We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church to build a home in Habitat's brand new new green neighborhood, Tinnen Woods. The home is for Ashley and Tyler Headrick and their two young daughters. Thanks to all who came out to help build. A big shout-out to Noah Hrynewich who volunteered four Saturdays for a total of 15 hours. And a special thanks to the RE crews who provided lunches.
2014 Fall Build
We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church to build a home in Habitat's brand new new green neighborhood, Tinnen Woods. The home is for Rita McBroom and her daughter Alexia (photo right). On June 20, we (partners, supporters, friends, and family) had a dedication ceremony at the McBroom home.
2013 Fall Build
We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church in Habitat's green neighborhood, Phoenix Place.
The home is for the Htoo Baw family. He and his wife, Paw Pleh, have 5 children (ages 8-20).
The Karen family came from Burma 3 years ago. Htoo Baw works at the Franklin Hotel, and Paw Pleh works for ARAMARK at UNC.
We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church to build a home for Evy Nuñez, who had been sharing a room with her daughter, Naima, in her parents house in Mebane. Evy has worked at Piedmont Health Services and as a part-time as a translator. Evy is very familiar with the Habitat program as her parents live in a Habitat home and she has volunteered on the construction site and at past Habitat events.We partnered with St. Thomas More, Newman Center, Holy Trinity, University Baptist, and United Church in Habitat's green neighborhood, Phoenix Place.
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Census • Person • Thomas Cobham
Bio Gallery Contemporaries
born active died
unknown 1563 ca unknown
No biographical information available
-all-ArchitectsArtistsAstronomersCartographersClergyCommerceComposersEducatorsExplorersGovernanceInventorsLegalMilitaryNavalPerformersPhysiciansPiratesScientistsSculptorsWriters Nationality
-all-AlgeriaEnglandFranceGermanyGreeceIrelandItalyJapanNetherlandsOttoman EmpireTurkey
NameNationalityBornActiveDied Selected
Thomas Cobham unknown 1563
Turgut Reis 1485 1500
1565 1565, Jun 23
an Ottoman Greek Admiral and privateer who also served as Bey of Algiers; Beylerbey of the Medite...
Salih Reis 1488 ca 1529
a Turkish privateer and Ottoman admiral. In 1529, he took part in the Turkish-Spanish battle near...
Captain Robert Blondel 1530 ca 1550
1568 1568 ca
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Juan_de_Ulúa_(1568) ....... French captai...
Takanobu Matsura 1529 1540
1569 1599, Apr 1
a 16th-century Japanese samurai and 25th hereditary lord of the Matsura clan of Hirado. He was on...
Francois Le Clerc unknown 1550
a 16th-century French privateer, originally from Normandy. He is credited as the first pirate in...
Matsura Takanobu 1529 1550
a 16th-century Japanese samurai and 25th hereditary lord of the Matsura clan of Hirado. He was o...
Mustapha unknown 1558
In 1558 he sailed, with a fleet of 140 vessels, to the Island of Minorca. Landed, and besieged th...
William Burder unknown 1560
Mayor of Dover. It may seem strange to accuse the mayor of so important a seaport as Dover of bei...
Richard Deigle unknown 1560
An Elizabethan pirate. Wrecked in the John of Sandwich at Alderney in 1564, when he was arrested,...
Captain Heidon unknown 1560
Arrested for piracy in 1564 for having captured a Flemish ship. This vessel he manned with thirte...
Philip Readhead unknown 1560
One of Captain Heidon's crew of the pirate ship John of Sandwich, wrecked on Alderney Island in 1...
Roger Shaster unknown 1560
One of Captain Heidon's crew of the pirate ship John of Sandwich, which was wrecked on the coast ...
Lady Mary Killigrew [3] unknown 1530
Mary was the daughter of a former Suffolk pirate. Mary's husband Sir Henry Killigrew, a former pi...
Ali Basha unknown 1560
1570s 9 unknown
From Algiers. Barbary corsair. Conquered the Kingdom of Tunis in the sixteenth century, and captu...
Jean Bontemps 1530 ca 1559
a French privateer. In 1559, sailing with Jean-Martin Cotes, he attacked the towns of Santa Marta...
Richard Allen [1] unknown 1560
1572 1572, Nov
a young English sailor turned pirate. He worked in the Bay of Biscay and English Channel. Along w...
Charles Glub 1540 ca 1560
English quartermaster and pirate. He was very popular with the crew for his cheerful disposition...
Klein Henszlein unknown 1560
a German pirate from 1560 to 1573 who raided shipping in the North Sea until his defeat and captu...
Louis de Boisot 1530 ca 1560
1576 1576, May 27
After 1567 he joined the watergeuzen. He took part in a battle under Willem van Oranje in 1572. H...
Andrew Barker unknown 1560
an English merchant. In 1575 at Tenerife, the Inquisition laid hands on the captain and crew of t...
Richard Minivy 1545 ca 1560
Richard Minivy *1545?? - +prosinec 1578. English pirate. He was a member of the crew by Francis ...
Captain John Thomas [1] 1540 ca 1560
English captain and pirate. He was a member of the crew by Francis Drake in 1560 and attended al...
Jacques de Sores unknown 1550
A French pirate whose sole documented act was his attack and burning of Havana in 1555. Other tha...
Guillaume Le Testu 1509 ca 1560
a French privateer, explorer and navigator. He was one of the foremost cartographers of his time ...
Leonard Vicary 1540 ca 1560s
English officer and a pirate. He was a student rights. He was a member of the crew by Francis Dr...
John Brewer 1540 ca 1560
1580s 9 1600 ca
Sailed with Francis Drake on his round the world journey ...... English captain and pirate. H...
Giovanni Dionigi 1519 1536
an Italian born corsair (privateer) who later became an Ottoman admiral (Reis), Bey of the Regenc...
Edward Bright unknown 1560
Sailed with Francis Drake on his round the world journey ...... English pirate. He was a memb...
John Cooke [1] 1545 ca 1560
English pirate. He was a member of the crew by Francis Drake in 1560 and attended all his robber...
Lawrence Eliot 1545 ca 1560
George Fortescue [1] 1550 ca 1560
James Rance 1545 ca 1560
English pirate. He was a member of the crew of Francis Drake from 1560 to r.1567 and attended al...
Thomas Drake unknown 1560
an English pirate captain, commanded the ship Thomas for his brother Francis Drake during the cam...
Sir John Hawkins 1532 1562
1595 1595, Nov 12
an English naval commander and administrator, merchant, navigator, shipbuilder, privateer and sla...
Grace O'Malley 1530 1550
chieftain of the Ó Máille clan in the west of Ireland, following in the footsteps of her father...
George Clifford unknown 1558
an English peer, naval commander and courtier of Queen Elizabeth I. He helped to prepare an exped...
Murat Reis the Elder 1534 1560
1608/38 1608/9/38
an Albanian privateer and admiral of the Ottoman Navy. He is regarded as one of the most importan...
Richard Bishop 1550 ca 1561
Pirate of the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. ..... English pirate. He served in the Mediterra...
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Search by products & services
PRODUCT/SERVICE SEARCH RESULTS
Your search for Effluent purification & treatment found 4 companies. Click on the names of listed companies to view further details.
If required, further narrow down your search within particular countries and/or type of business.
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Tarmac Buxton Lime
Tarmac Buxton Lime is a global leader in the supply of lime and limestone solutions. We work with associated companies operating in Germany, the Czech Republic, Ireland, Poland and Russia to serve markets in Europe and the rest of the world. From water purification and electricity generation, to the production of essential materials such as iron, steel, glass, plastics and paper, our lime products play a vital role in everything we do.
Future Industrial Services
LMI Limited
Winsford, United Kingdom
Liquid Metering Instruments is the UK distributor for LMI Milton Roy metering pumps, conductivity, pH and redox controllers. From a single pump to a complete automated chemical dosing system, LMI has a proven track record in providing reliable, cost-effective chemical dosing solutions.
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Home > China First Capital, China Investment, China Investment Banking, China IPO, China Private Equity, Chinese Domestic Economy, Chinese Government Policy, Chinese SME, Entrepreneurship, IPO, Private Equity, Renminbi funds, Valuation > CFC’s New Research Report on Capital Allocation and Private Equity Trends in China
CFC’s New Research Report on Capital Allocation and Private Equity Trends in China
February 28th, 2012 Leave a comment Go to comments
Capital allocation, not the amount of capital, is the largest financial challenge confronting the private equity industry in China. Capital continues to flood into the PE sector in China. 2011 was a record year, with over $30billion in new capital raised by PE firms, including both funds investing in dollars and those investing in Renminbi. China’s private equity industry seems destined now to outstrip in size that of every other country, with exception of the US. Ten years ago, the industry hardly existed in China.
Yes, it is a time of plenty. Yet, plenty of problems remain. Many of the best private companies remain starved of capital, as China’s domestic banks continue to choke back on their lending. As a result, PE firms will play an increasingly vital role in providing growth capital to these companies.
These are some of the key themes addressed in CFC’s latest research report, titled “2012-2013: 中国私募股权融资与市场趋势”. It can be downloaded from the CFC website or by clicking here.
The report is available in Chinese only.
Like many of CFC’s research reports, this latest one is intended primarily for reference by China’s entrepreneurs and company bosses. Private equity, particularly funds able to invest Renminbi into domestic companies, is still a comparatively new phenomenon in China. Entrepreneurs remain, for the most part, unfamiliar with all but the basics of growth capital investment. The report assesses both costs and benefits of raising PE.
This calculus has some unique components in China. Private equity is often not just the only source for growth capital, it is also, in many cases, a pre-condition to gaining approval from the CSRC for a domestic IPO. It’s a somewhat odd concept for someone with a background only in US or European private equity. But, from an entrepreneur’s perspective, raising private equity in China is a kind of toll booth on the road to IPO. The entrepreneurs sells the PE firm a chunk of his company (usually 15%-20%) for a price significantly below comparable quoted companies’ valuation. The PE firm then manages the IPO approval process.
Most Chinese companies that apply for domestic IPO are turned down by the CSRC. Bringing in a PE firm can often greatly improve the odds of success. If a company is approved for domestic IPO, its valuation will likely be at least three to four times higher (on price/earnings basis) than the level at which the PE firm invested. Thus, both PE firm and entrepreneur stand to benefit.
The CSRC relies on PE firms’ pre-investment due diligence when assessing the quality and reliability of a company’s accounting and growth strategy. If a PE firm (particularly one of the leading firms, with significant experience and successful IPO exits in China) is willing to commit its own money, it provides that extra level of confidence the CSRC is looking for before it allows a Chinese company to take money from Chinese retail investors.
From a Chinese entrepreneur’s perspective, the stark reality is “No PE, No IPO”.
CFC’s Jessie Wu did most of the heavy lifting in preparing this latest report, which also digests some material previously published in columns I write for “21 Century Business Herald” (“21世纪经济报道) and “Forbes China” (“福布斯中文”). The cover photo is a Ming Dynasty Xuande vase.
The “OTCBB-ization” of the Hong Kong Stock Exchange Too Few Exits: The PE Camel Can’t Pass Through the Eye of China’s IPO Needle
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This blog started in 2008. Its purpose then and now is to evaluate and highlight key trends in China's private equity industry, M&A and capital markets.
Investing in China remains both one of the supremely attractive as well as most challenging endeavors for institutional investors, global corporations, private individuals.
We are an international investment bank and advisory firm based in China and committed as few others are to the continued strength, dynamism and globalization of China's economy, particularly its private sector entrepreneurial companies and forward-thinking state-owned enterprises.
We invite you also to visit the Chinese-language blog, which digests our articles and commentaries published in the Chinese media on China’s economy, SOE sector, capital markets, technology, entrepreneurship. 中国股权投资: www.chinaprivateequityblog.com
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China Regulatory Failure to Contain Financial Excesses Putting Off Some Foreign Investors — South China Morning Post
China and Ireland: Building a Powerful High-Tech Partnership. Enterprise Ireland Ambition Asia Conference, Dublin June 2019
Adviser Banks Forced to Hold Stakes in IPOs on China Startup Board — Nikkei Asian Review
Chinese Education Startup Puts Western Teachers on Notice — Wall Street Journal
Chinese Private Equity Funding Hit By Sharp Downturn — Financial Times
Global Investment in Aviation Summit (GIAS), Dubai
Are US and China Decoupling? Guest Lecture at University of Michigan Ross School of Business
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The Order of the Alchemists (DVD)
Philip Gardiner’s The Order of the Alchemists takes Reality Films to a new level in terms of both production values and content.
As a writer who enjoys words and analyzing different styles of writing and speaking, I was quite impressed by the narration.
On the arts side, the CGI (computer generated imagery) is a definite step up from earlier productions. And the soundtrack for this DVD is simply beautiful.
Gardiner himself seems to be something of a modern day Gnostic or, at least, an advocate for Gnosticism. But he’s certainly not lost in the clouds as some New Age enthusiasts seem to be. Instead, this film showcases his considerable abilities as a sometimes edgy but never too jagged communicator of ideas.
The DVD begins by looking at the 11th century bigotry, as Gardiner puts it, of the Roman Catholic Crusades. Gardiner is critical of a Catholic Church that, so he implies, was chiefly concerned with the acquisition of riches and power through means of unsavory aggression.
While watching this part of the video and writing in my notepad,“he points the finger at the Roman Catholic Church” Gardiner soon after adds that Islam, historically speaking, was not exempt from succumbing to the fighting instinct.
But the Catholic power brokers, Gardiner says, started it all.
After this bold kickoff the narrative turns to the Portuguese nobleman Manuel Pinto da Fonseca (1681-1773). Here Gardiner provides a visually rich portrayal of this curious man’s quest for political power alongside his pursuit of the alchemical Elixir of Life.
Throughout his account Gardiner develops a controversial theory dealing with alleged connections between the longstanding Knights of Malta and an assortment of contemporary world powers.
But to avoid a spoiler I won’t reveal Gardiner’s unsettling conclusions.
Suffice it to say that I found The Order of the Alchemists a provocative investigation into some hidden histories that, for all we know, just might need more telling.
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Report: Big Four and Blockchain: Are Auditing Giants Adopting Yet? (cointelegraph.com)
Last week, Big Four firm Deloitte unveiled a mobile platform designed to host blockchain networks on a small scale for demonstration purposes. The product is “based on client interest in understanding blockchain capabilities in live interactions," as per the press release.
With this move, the Big Four companies — comprised of Deloitte, PwC, Ernst & Young (EY) and KPMG — continue their expansion into the field of blockchain. Combined, the firms brought in over $148 billion in revenue last year, as they handle over 50% of audits for both public and private companies.
Consequently, their presence in the crypto space could be a reflection of the state of blockchain adoption.
So, how far have the Big Four gone while exploring distributed ledger technology (DLT), and can blockchain offer any particular perks for those companies?
Big Four: Consistent, but limited interest in blockchain
At this point, all of the Big Four companies have at least demonstrated some interest in blockchain, albeit their approaches tend to differ. Some companies, like Deloitte, have been mostly researching how this technology has affected the general market, while EY, for instance, has focused on releasing software solutions tailored for the needs of cryptocurrency businesses.
Such diversity can be explained by the very nature of those companies — being professional services networks, they offer a variety of services, including audit, tax, consulting, enterprise risk and financial advisory.
It is also the reason why the Big Four have yet to fully dive into blockchain instead of merely flirting with the technology, as Cal Evans — the founder of Gresham International, a compliance and strategy firm — opined in a conversation with Cointelegraph:
“Because the Big Four work in such a wide scope of sectors, they are unable (or unwilling) to dedicate serious time to blockchain. This makes sense, given that they cannot invest in every new technology set which comes along (although we view blockchain as different). One key thing to note is that many of the big four only got into blockchain when Crypto projects began using them to show more transparency. The Big Four are known to only get involved with something when their client base is using it, blockchain was and is no exception.”
“These appear to be just early steps,” Juan M. Villaverde, chief crypto analyst at Weiss Ratings, said. “They [the Big Four] have begun to recognize the potential of DLT, but they have not yet figured out how to leverage that potential.
”According to recruitment platform Indeed, as of March 2019, PwC had 40 blockchain-related job offerings, being the top recruiter in the field among the Big Four. EY came second with 17 vacancies, followed by Deloitte with 10 job offers.
Meanwhile, a more up-to-date search shows that PwC is still the most active professional services network when it comes to blockchain technology, but has only 13 positions directly mentioning the word “blockchain” left. EY has four job offerings, while apparently neither KPMG nor Deloitte are hunting for any blockchain talent at this point.
That seems to confirm that the Big Four’s interest in the crypto space is existent, but moderate: PwC, for instance, has a total of 1,010 open vacancies on Indeed, meaning that its 40 blockchain-related job offers account for a minuscule fraction of that number.
Maurizio Raffone, CEO at crypto-focused consultancy and advisory firm Finetiq Ltd., told Cointelegraph:
“My impression is that the Big Four are keen on blockchain as an additional area where they can provide consulting services rather than audit services. There has been a trend by audit firms to move into more lucrative consulting and blockchain offers them yet another opportunity for that strategy.
”Related: How Blockchain Is Reshaping External Audit: Crypto Developments by PwC, KPMG, EY and Deloitte Nevertheless, blockchain itself should also prove especially useful in the auditing market due to its transparent nature, as Evans told Cointelegraph:
“Blockchain is one of the few technology sets that can actually aid in most auditing respects. Financial auditing can be assisted by an end-to-end blockchain-based company as all transactions will be open and verifiable. They will also be contained within one ledger, which is one of the largest problems for an independent financial audit. Of course, there is more than one type of audit. Blockchain can be deployed across different sectors to make, for example, a service level agreement audit more effective. Companies could be monitored using blockchain to ensure that they are meeting compliance and the clients wishes.”
Raffone agrees that auditing practices could benefit from having blockchain in place. “I see blockchain as a cost-saving technology in the auditing space,” he told Cointelegraph. “Given the public nature of financial accounts, a blockchain solution would be rather efficient.
”However, Villaverde of Weiss Ratings is wary that the Big Four can stimulate crypto adoption only in certain scenarios. If the Big Four seek to involve themselves exclusively in the support of private blockchain solutions, the expert said, then it would hardly have any effect on the market at large, because “a private, permissioned blockchain is little more than a glorified database.” He went on, saying:
“It’s only when these firms decide to leverage the power of public blockchains, such as Ethereum or Bitcoin, that we envision these initiatives having a significant impact on public adoption.”
Crypto/blockchain market reports: Yes
Blockchain-based software solutions: Yes
First-hand adoption (Bitcoin acceptance, crypto ATMs): Yes
Investments in the crypto market: No
Having started accepting Bitcoin (BTC) as a payment for a part of its services back in 2017, PwC today is arguably the Big Four company that is the most proactive in exploring cryptocurrencies and blockchain. The company even has a major training program in place to boost its employees’ knowledge on the field.
Thus, PwC is no stranger to the crypto space and its major problems: In its 2018 study entitled “Blockchain is here. What’s your next move?” the firm highlighted regulatory uncertainty and trust as major barriers to blockchain adoption among businesses.
Additionally, PwC has paid particular interest to stablecoins — another increasingly important part of the industry — and struck a partnership with decentralized lending platform Cred to advise on issuance of a United States dollar-pegged cryptocurrency.
However, the firm has not limited its blockchain presence to its advisory department. In March 2018, it partnered with leading global asset management company Northern Trust in a bid to enable real-time equity audits via blockchain and hence make the underlying transactions more transparent.
Two months later, PwC invested in VeChain, a large cryptocurrency startup specializing in web services, supply chain management and anti-counterfeiting.
In July of the same year, news broke that PwC was going to audit Tezos, the ambitious cryptocurrency project that was going through an internal dispute and several class-action lawsuits at the time.
As per the accompanying press release published by the latter, it was allegedly the first time a “large-scale blockchain organization” had been accepted as a Big Four audit client. Most recently, PwC announced the release of a cryptocurrency auditing software solution.
Specifically, the company updated its Halo auditing suite to accommodate “entities engaging in cryptocurrency transactions” by providing independent evidence of private-public key pairing and collecting information about transactions and balances from blockchains. Related: Will PwC’s New Software Solve the Cryptocurrency Auditing Problem?
First-hand adoption (Bitcoin acceptance, crypto ATMs): No
EY has released more solo crypto-related software projects than any of its Big Four rivals. First, in April 2018, EY announced Blockchain Analyzer, becoming the first mainstream auditor to offer its services specifically for the needs of cryptocurrency companies, which allowed for the gathering of an organization’s entire transaction data from multiple blockchain ledgers.
A year later, the firm followed up with a major update, introducing “the second generation” of EY Blockchain Analyzer. According to Paul Brody, the global innovation leader for blockchain at EY, the new version can be used for multiple purposes — such as audit, tax and transaction monitoring.
Moreover, in March 2019, EY unveiled another software solution — this time, for tax purposes exclusively. Dubbed Crypto-Asset Accounting and Tax, or CAAT, the tool was designed to assist its U.S. customers — both public and institutional — in filing IRS tax returns related to crypto assets.
Further, in May, EY open-sourced the code of Nightfall — its solution that enables the transfer of ERC-20 and ERC-721 tokens on the Ethereum (ETH) blockchain “with complete privacy” — and put it on GitHub. “It is an experimental solution and still being actively developed,” the company warned.
Finally, the audit titan has applied blockchain to track wine. Specifically, the platform — titled Tattoo — helps consumers across Asia determine the quality, provenance and authenticity of imported European wines.
As with the aforementioned Nightall, EY's solution enables its customers to perform secure and private transactions on the Ethereum public network by using zero-knowledge proof technology.
On top of releasing a number of blockchain-related software solutions, EY has also been supplying its regular services to crypto actors. Namely, the firm has been appointed by QuadrigaCX — a Canadian cryptocurrency exchange that went defunct under mysterious circumstances — as an independent third party to monitor the proceedings in a creditor protection case.
However, some of the exchange’s former clients are not happy with how EY has been handling the case: At some point, the auditor reportedly transferred 103 Bitcoins (approximately $1 million) to the exchange’s locked-out cold wallets. According to the reportreleased by EY in February, the loss was caused by “a platform setting error.”
KPMG has not only been increasing its presence in the blockchain space, but has also been a member of the Wall Street Blockchain Alliance (WSBA) since 2017.
Over the past 12 months, it has partnered with blockchain company Guardtime to offer blockchain-based services to clients; joined forces with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to integrate blockchain in the pharmaceutical supply chain (the initiative will reportedly speed up the process of tracking inventory and boost the accuracy of data shared between members of the supply chain); and worked with United Arab Emirates officials to successfully test a blockchain-based Know Your Customer, or KYC, application.
Additionally, KPMG collaborated with three powerful software companies — Microsoft, R3 and Tomia — to develop a blockchain-powered solution for telecom settlements. Arun Ghosh, who leads KPMG's blockchain consultancy, said of the initiative:
"Blockchain has the potential to deliver transparency and visibility, providing the opportunity to help reduce reconciliations and increase efficiencies associated with traditional interconnect billing, roaming and partner settlement processes.”
Apart from working on blockchain-backed projects, KPMG has also studied the cryptocurrency market with an overall bullish outlook. In a November 2018 report, for instance, the auditing company invited institutional investors to “realize its potential.” which, in turn, would allegedly benefit the industry at large.
“Cryptoassets have potential. But for them to realize this potential, institutionalization is needed,” the document’s authors argued.
KPMG’s latest survey on blockchain, however, suggests that most tax and finance executives are not considering adopting the technology. Regardless, David Jarczyk, innovation principal and tax leader for blockchain at KPMG, highlighted its potential benefits for the financial world:
“Blockchain is like a spreadsheet on steroids that can automate certain tasks, build greater transparency, speed and reliability, and provide a single source of transactional information.”
Deloitte was the earliest Big Four player to delve into the crypto space, as it announced its first blockchain lab in Dublin back in May 2016. By that time, the company had already collaborated with the Bank of Ireland to complete a joint proof-of-concept blockchain trial.
Today, three of the Ireland’s four largest banks are reportedly using Deloitte’s blockchain solution (developed in its Dublin branch) to verify employees’ credentials.
Also in 2016, Deloitte installed a Bitcoin ATM on the premises of its Toronto office. Placed outside the security gates so it could be accessible to the general public, the machine showcased the firm’s interest in cryptocurrencies.
Since then, Deloitte has kept a close eye on the market, releasing several reports that have recognized regulatory uncertainty and Bitcoin’s infamous scalability problem among the main hurdles for mass adoption.
Nevertheless, the company’s August 2018 report entitled “Breaking Blockchain Open: 2018 Global Blockchain Survey” predicted that blockchain technology was getting closer to a breakout moment.
Meanwhile, the newest issue of that report unveiled that as much as 73% of Chinese enterprises believe that blockchain is a top-five strategic priority, highlighting the nation’s focus on the technology.
This summer, Deloitte has also begun supporting a new blockchain accelerator program called Startup Studio in partnership with 22 other companies, including Fidelity and Amazon. Startup Studio will reportedly host workshops for blockchain startups to help them enhance a variety of skills important for the industry.
Finally, the Big Four giant has just rolled out its own blockchain-based platform designed to provide users with blockchain demonstrations and experiments. Called Blockchain in a Box, the new product is described as “a mobile, self-contained technology platform capable of hosting blockchain-based solutions across four small-form-factor compute nodes and three video displays, as well as networking components that enable integration with external services, such as traditional cloud technologies.”
Are the Big Four doing enough?
As for now, experts seem somewhat skeptical of the Big Four’s progress in terms of blockchain, arguing that their knowledge on the subject seems limited at this point. Evans told Cointelegraph:
“There have been examples in the market where companies such as PwC have actually plagiarized and copied work from other companies within the crypto space, showing that their knowledge on the subject is incredibly limited. It is hard for a company to push something they don't fully understand themselves.”
Either way, most accounting and auditing functions have the potential to become automated with smart contracts at some point in the future, and the Big Four would have to drastically increase their presence to stay relevant, according to Weiss Ratings’ Villaverde, who continued:
“The main question is: Will the Big Four lead in the creation of this new technology? Or will smaller, potentially more nimble, players jump into the space and take over significant market share from the Big Four?”
Whether or not the Big Four will adopt blockchain in their regular service offerings, the fact that all four firms draw up regular reports on the crypto and/or blockchain market shows that they are interested and are closely following the developments in the industry.
Sep 3, 2019 by Admin in Research and Reports
Francisco Gimeno - BC Analyst and
Jhon Allen
Francisco Gimeno - BC Analyst The blockchain is yet an emerging tech. Some people in their optimism forget this. We expect it to be ubiquitous around all sectors in the next future, but its use cases are yet few and apart. Observing the "Big Four" dealings with it we can feel the growing interest in a technology which, we shouldn't forget, will be disruptive and facilitate the 4th IR. PwC shows the way here by investing time and people in researching and educating.
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Austria Hofer
Right-wing Austrian candidate on Brexit
Source: AP TELEVISION
Dateline: Vienna - 5 July 2016
Vienna - 5 July 2016
1. Austrian presidential candidate Norbert Hofer at desk
2. Hofer at desk
3. Hands shuffling through documents
4. SOUNDBITE (German) Norbert Hofer, Austrian presidential candidate:
"My opinion is that should treaties be developed that say 'we disempower the member states, we build a centralist Europe under complete elimination of the unanimity principle' then you would have to ask the Austrians if they wanted to be a member in such a Europe. Because the joining of the European Union happened under different conditions. That was a very important promise that we as a small country, also because of the unanimity principle, can have a say in important questions. Then this would be a different Europe. Then you would have to ask again: do you want to be a member in a centralist Europe? The result could absolutely be 'yes'. But you have to ask the question."
5. Hofer during interview
6. Various of portrait of Tyrolean leader Andreas Hofer on wall
"What happens if Turkey becomes a member of the European Union? That would also be a completely different Europe. And I think the European Union could hardly cope with this. I'm in favour of a privileged partnership with Turkey, with tight economic relations, friendly relations. But for me Turkey is not a European country with the exception of a few square kilometres."
9. Hofer's hands
10. SOUNDBITE (German) Norbert Hofer, Austrian presidential candidate:
"I strongly believe that the people in responsible positions in the European Union and and the member states have learned from this and also realise how critical such a decision can be. I believe in a healing effect. And maybe the European Union can even come out invigorated out of this crisis - if you make the right decisions and if the right personalities are in power."
11. Hofer during interview
"For me Juncker is not someone who should have this position now in such a critical situation. My view is similar to, I think Merkel, who seems to have already made some remarks. For many citizens Juncker doesn't represent the picture of the European Union we wish. This non-serious appearance, slapping heads of states and governments when they arrive. He must be aware of the big responsibility he is bearing in this position. You can't play the comic relief, that's just not possible."
13. Various of Hofer at his desk
Austrian Presidential candidate Norbert Hofer said that if the European Union is not reformed to become less centralised, it would be right to ask Austrians if they want to remain part of the bloc.
The right-wing candidate said Austria joined the EU "under different circumstances" and if the bloc moves towards further integration "then you would have to ask again: do you want to be a member in a centralist Europe? The result could absolutely be 'yes'. But you have to ask the question."
Hofer said he hopes that the current EU crisis after the Brexit vote could have a "healing effect" which could even invigorate the Union.
Hofer added that he was against Turkey joining the EU but in favour of tight economic and friendly relations with the country saying, "for me Turkey is not a European country with the exception of a few square kilometres."
He also criticised EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, saying he didn't represent "the picture of the European Union we wish".
Hofer will head his right-wing Freedom Party in a rerun of the presidential election ordered by the country's highest court on grounds of wide-spread voting irregularities in the first ballot.
Austria's chancellor on Tuesday said the government has set October 2 as the date for the rerun of the presidential election
The date, announced Tuesday by Chancellor Christian Kern, still has to be approved by parliament, but that is only a formality.
The Constitutional Court on Thursday had announced that the May runoff between Hofer and left-leaning independent Alexander Van Der Bellen must be repeated.
Van der Bellen had won by less than 30,000 votes.
The ruling essentially matched a challenge by Hofer's party, which asserted the election's results were distorted by mistakes and sloppiness in counting absentee ballots and by other ballot violations.
Presidential elections , Voting fraud and irregularities , Religion and politics , Elections , Voting , Government and politics , Economy , Supreme courts , National elections , Religious issues , Religion , Social affairs , Religious issues , Social issues , Business , National courts , National governments , National courts , Courts , Judiciary
Norbert Hofer , Jean-Claude Juncker , Christian Kern
Austria government, European Union, Germany government
Vienna , Vienna , Austria
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US House Russia Investigation
House GOP: Obama FBI 'prejudged' Trump's guilt
Dateline: Washington DC - 25 October 2018
Washington DC - 25 October 2018
1. Various of George Papadopoulos entering meeting with Congressional investigators
2. SOUNDBITE: (English) Rep. John Ratcliffe, (R) Texas:
"Justice is a blindfolded lady holding a set of scales. No one's finger is supposed to be on the scales and these facts continue to lend themselves to the narrative that there were folks in the Obama FBI and Justice Department that prejudged Hillary Clinton's innocence, and prejudged Donald Trump's guilt or involvement with the Russian government and potential collusion."
++SOTS SEPARATED BY BLACK FRAMES++
4. SOUNDBITE: (English) Rep. Mark Meadows, (R) North Carolina:
"The facts that we are finding in here are astounding that we would allow this type of investigation to be embarked upon without any real solid foundation of collusion."
5. Meadows walks away
Republican congressional members say their meeting with former Trump campaign adviser, George Papadopoulos, backs up their belief that partisan bias has affected investigations at the Justice Department.
"These facts continue to lend themselves to the narrative that there were folks in the Obama FBI and Justice Department that prejudged Hillary Clinton's innocence, and prejudged Donald Trump's guilt or involvement with the Russian government and potential collusion," said Republican Rep. John Ratcliffe.
Ratcliffe was one of a few lawmakers who attended an interview on Thursday with George Papadopoulos on Capitol Hill. Congress is currently on recess in the weeks before the November election. Republican and Democratic staffers were also in the room.
Papadopoulos, who triggered the Russia investigation, made his first appearance Thursday before congressional investigators.
Papadopoulos was sentenced in September to two weeks in prison as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's probe, was meeting in closed session with two GOP-led House committees. It is one of several interviews the GOP-led House Judiciary and Oversight and Government Reform panels are conducting as part of their investigation into partisan bias at the Justice Department.
Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russian intermediaries during the 2016 campaign. Since he was sentenced, he has been eager to talk publicly. He has spent many nights on Twitter, along with his wife, venting anger with the FBI and implying that he was set up in the investigation.
Papadopoulos, who served as a foreign policy adviser to Trump's campaign, has been a central figure in the Russia investigation dating back before Mueller's May 2017 appointment. He was the first person to plead guilty in Mueller's probe and the first Trump campaign adviser to be sentenced. His case was also the first to detail a member of the Trump campaign having knowledge of Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election while it was ongoing.
According to a sweeping indictment, Russian intelligence had stolen emails from Hillary Clinton's campaign and other Democratic groups by April 2016, the same month Papadopoulos was told by the professor, Joseph Mifsud, that Russian officials had told him they had "dirt" on Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails." According to a New York Times report last year, Papadopoulos then told the Australian diplomat, Alexander Downer, who tipped off the FBI.
Democrats have said the GOP investigation is an attempt to discredit Mueller's investigation.
Political parties , Political organizations , Government and politics , Crime , General news , United States presidential election , Legislature , Law enforcement agencies , Presidential elections , National elections , Elections , Special Counsel investigation into Russia’s interference in 2016 U.S. Elections , Campaigns , Criminal investigations , Criminal investigations , Law and order , 2016 United States presidential election
Donald Trump , Hillary Clinton , Robert Mueller , John Ratcliffe , Mark Meadows , George Papadopoulos
Russia government, United States Congress, United States government, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation, U.S. Republican Party, U.S. Department of Justice
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Clifford Pershing Hannum
Courtesy of Michael T. Stein:
Brigadier General Clifford Pershing Hannum
Born December 7, 1912 in Indiana
Second Lieutenant (Reserve) February 10, 1941
Served to Lieutenant Colonel (AUS) May 27, 1946
Second Lieutenant (Cavalry) August 22, 1949
Captain October 29, 1954
Student, University of Arkansas 1948-49
Transferred from Cavalry to Infantry 1950
Student, Command & General Staff College 1952-53
Silver Star - Bronze Star Medal (two)
Brigadier General Clifford Pershing Hannum served in World War II and in the Vietnam War. He was buried with full military honors in Sectin 60 of Arlington National Cemetery.
Captain Clifford P. Hannum, Infantry, Indiana, 32d Division, Buna, was awarded the Silver Star Medal for actions on 29 December 1942.
Research regarding his life and career continues.
Photograph By M. R. Patterson, October 2002
HANNUM, CLIFFORD PERSHING
BRIG GEN US ARMY
WORLD WAR II, VIETNAM
BURIED AT: SECTION 66 SITE 6839
Posted: 12 October 2002 Updated: 7 March 2003 Updated: 24 June 2003 Updated: 2 December 2005 Updated: 27 December 2005
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New film paints Bab al-Tabbaneh in its true colors
File - A photo shows the filming process of "Ibrahim Realms " in Tripoli, Thursday, Aug. 21, 2014. (The Daily Star/Fathi Masri)
Misbah al-Ali| The Daily Star
A version of this article appeared in the print edition of The Daily Star on September 06, 2014, on page 3.
Bab Al-Tabbaneh
Remy Itani
Crystal Films
Dima Jundy
Ibrahim Realms
Screen Institute
Francophone Organization
In the film "Ibrahim Realms" the life of Bab al-Tabbaneh resident Ibrahim Farran takes center focus as one among many cases of alienation, drug addiction and also religious intolerance.
Producer Dima Jundy said she was intent on making the film to illustrate how the value of human life is degraded in Bab al-Tabbaneh, whose people have no choice but to live in squalid conditions.
The young director of the film, Remy Itani, seemed eager to capture people's emotions and document them.
Itani previously directed two documentaries, "Furners at Home" in 2011 and "Invisible Citizens" in 2012 . However, her new movie about Bab al-Tabbaneh has a special place in her heart, and she was impressed, foremost by how the people of the neighborhood managed to find joy, despite hardship.
Bassem Fayad is more than a cinematographer who films the shots Itani wants, but thinks along the same wavelength as the director, and truly understands her. His sharpness demonstrates a rare talent, and this is what emerged during the long hours spent editing the film.
More from Misbah al-Ali
Tripoli solar project faces uphill battle
A passion for riding a bicycle in Tripoli
Tripoli’s renowned Al-Attar Mosque to be renovated
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Archbishop says flag designs need to be re-evaluated
by Archbishop Peter Loy Chong
The Oxford Dictionary states that a flag is a piece of cloth or similar material, typically oblong or square, attachable by one edge to a pole or rope and used as the symbol or emblem of a country. The flag is a symbol of a nation's identity, beliefs and values.
Therefore to create a new flag and ensure it truly represents a nation's identity, those charged with this task must understand the notion of a symbol. What is a symbol and how does it function?
I wish to contribute to the formulation of Fiji's new flag by providing a framework for understanding the flag as a symbol. I draw my contribution from Roger Haight's book "Dynamics of Theology".
Haight's discussion on symbol draws from two prominent Christian theologians, Karl Rahner (Catholic) and Paul Tillich (Protestant). Rahner's theology of symbols is rooted in a great doctor of the church, Thomas Aquinas, and Aristotle.
Haight argues a symbol may be simply defined as that through which something other than itself is made present and known. In some cases the symbol may be the only way through which the thing symbolised is actualised or known. A symbol makes something else present and actual. It makes known something other than itself.
In the religious context, symbols make God known and present. A symbol can be anything, an event, or person in history which mediates or makes present to human consciousness the presence of God in one way or another.
A good synonym for symbol is medium. In other words a symbol mediates the experience of God. Since a symbol is a medium its function is to point to something beyond itself or something other than itself. This is what makes a symbol a symbol, namely the ability to point to something else.
A symbol is more than a mere sign. A sign bears no internal connection to that which it signifies. A symbol on the other hand has the capability of making present that which it symbolises.
Paul Tillich goes further by stating a symbol participates in that which is symbolised. The symbol makes present what it symbolises. Since a symbol communicates and makes the divine present, it must be meaningful to the people of the particular culture.
The above understanding of the symbol can help us understand the significance of a national symbol such as the flag.
A flag symbolises a nation's identity, history, beliefs and values. The flag should communicate and make present to people what their nation stands for. The symbols in the flag point to the nation. To see the symbols is to see their national identity, beliefs and values.
Symbols will only speak to a people when it is drawn from their culture. Hence, a foreign symbol cannot speak to the local people. It must be added here that an effective symbol needs no interpretation or explanation. In other words, an effective symbol has the power to communicate what it symbolises and hence no need for explanations.
From what has been said about the nature and function of symbols we can make some concluding remarks in relation to the proposed new Fiji flag.
1. The Fiji flag should communicate Fijian identity, beliefs, values and aspirations.
2. The new Fiji flag should use effective and powerful local symbols that communicate Fijian identity, beliefs and values.
3. The symbols should be drawn from the major local ethnic and religious communities.
The 23 probable flags should be evaluated and critiqued in light of these three points. The comments we are getting in the media show the 23 probable flags fail to communicate the Fijian identity, beliefs and values.
Any Fijian who sees the Fiji flag should see something of the Fijianness in his or her heart.
It really shows that majority of the people still go with the famous current fag........God Bleeeesssssssss Fiiiiiijjjiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!
Tin Tin said...
Some officers from AG's office are currently in Kadavu supposedly on a mission to collect data that will show agreement and verification by the people of the government's intention to have one of the 23 designs adopted and also raised during the Fiji Day celebration in October. The same government team returned from Vanua Levu villages last week.
Be prepared to hear the AG announcing that he has the signatures of more than 60% of the population that have agreed on a new flag for the nation.
Josateki Daulako says....The sad thing is many people express verbally their dislike for the 23 flag choices. When it comes to signing petitions no one wants to do it. I hear that SODELPA only collected under 400 signatures. Everyone in Fiji seems to have the attitude of letting someone else do the hard work and they are not bothered. People of Fiji should be bothered and understand their rights as individuals or have we succumbed...Of course these Government Officials who made the trip to Vanualevu and Kadavu will come back with thousands of votes...Half of it was probably signed on the way there and back but they will get their signatures. There is a saying...when the going gets tough, the tough gets going and this is the moments when we need true leaders and I will keep harping about it...Not leaders who say something than seat back and expect everyone else to do the work but leader who show courage and step up and do the work and people will follow. We do not have such a leader today in Fiji. Our leaders are all wind.... Why call oneself a Chief if one cannot lead from the front. Why call oneself a representative of the people within an electorate when one cannot be the voice for the people. Mandela spent most of his living life or the better part of it in jail. That is a sacrifice of dignity for his people. Where is Fiji's Mandela.
As far as I am concerned, this flag issue is not going to put food on the table. There are certainly more pressing issues than this piece of rag. Most people are sick and tired of this garbage that a change in flag design could do miracles...read my lips..IT WON'T. All it does is leave behind a legacy of the worst history in Fijian Politics. A mad man who lacks wisdom. A lawyer who has lost his nuts and a group of gullible suckers. Likewise on the other side of the aisle, a group of jealous traditionalists and racists who think that the world has not moved one inch. To me, Fijian politics is fucked. All we have are "political soldiers" who think they can save the world
KUA NI RERE said...
I would like to thank C4.5 and Archibishop Loy Chong for this wonderful description of what a "Flag " means.The description of Symbolisms are fantastic. I'm not Catholic but even God deals with us in Symbolisms.
I've never heard of pre-Christian history of Fijians having a Flag. Rt Cakobau's flag is obviously SYMBOLS from the Bible ( Piegon with olive branch)
Although we have Fijian words like Kuila and Drotini. I dont know whether Kuila is a derivation from another language. It sounds like it. Drotini sounds more Fijian.
I'm happy to be corrected.
I would suggest all young people in Fiji read the Archibishops definition of Symbolism. May be they should Facebook it to all their friends.
BECAUSE ON THE 10TH OF OCTOBER YOU WILL SEE A FLAG THAT MEANS NOTHING TO US ...but probably means something to the 2 Conniving, Lying, Thieving, DUMB arseholes Bainimarama and Kaiyum.
Probably the only symbols fit for their flag would be 2 black arses pointing at us. Now those SYMBOLS would mean a lot to Fiji and its citizens.
More like Bati ni Tanoa soldiers...rogo vinaka na vakamacala io kena caka2 taki...me dua tale cakava....woilei...sa sivia na vosa but that is why we need true leaders to step up and lead from the front.
The current flag, is a give away...its a class 6-7 student with a stencil and colour ready to splash paint of a meaningless, stupid and whitewash symbols. This goes to show the shallow mentality of those behind it, they want a new flat, kick everybody's opinion out of the door and let their will be done fullstop!..make it worse everybody keeping silent...with the exception of the few like Archbishop Loy.
@JD the problem is no one trusts chiefs any more. They are look downed upon there's no longer any respect especially amongst the young ones.They say we are a republic and the GCC is dismantled we dont need a monarchy/chiefly rank style structure and advising the government.They say the people should advise governments not lazy careless Aristotle snobbish fat cats who have destroyed the country.Chiefs are viewed as worthless traitors to the country these days.In fact its even tougher to be a chief under this government then any other.
It is a very inspiring article on symbolism and it reveals the true meaning of it.
I am not against the notion of a new flag but how shallow are the perceptions and views of the ones that are regarded.
If our flag imperatively has to change then lets put more work to it and raise the bar above the one that is flying high now.
Bai time to smarten up this Archibishop Tong,fong,kong or whatever?
He needs to know that he can't jump into the political arena before
taking off your fathers' frock? Hey, if you opposed this new flag then just wait and vote off the Government at the next election?What
people should be worried about is JOBS & GOOD WAGES?
I believe that people didn't want to sign the petition against the flag for coupla reasons:
1. For fear of being targeted by this regime
2. The perception that their signatures do not carry weight anymore.
3. The perception that the flag had been finalized and ready to be hoisted.
4.The loss of trust towards the ruling party.
5. The loss of trust on our judiciary
And to say that we do not have leaders to lead from the front is basically unfair when every Fijian today is afraid of confronting a regime that threat its own people with armor, violence , butchery and thievery.Our fight against this regime is making waves in the planet today through our social network, more than the gathered signatures. Let them do what they are doing because it's their season.
Tomasi used to write" There's a season to everything"
The time for justice is forthcoming The dogs day isn't here yet and I'm waiting for that day.
6 28. The archbishop is right.
He has the right to freedom of expression both as a citizen and his status in our society and he is exercising them.
Yeah, jobs and good wages you're asking are available at the Never land. This regime and it's idiot leaders are doing a great job of stealing and devouring the wealth of its people. Thats why its difficult to find a job. Their policies are failing.
Josateki Daulako says to Anon 1:42am...I think your sentiments about our Chiefs is rather harse...Our traditional system is still in place and maintained strongly by our Fijian communities and every Fijian today knows that to do away with it is to do away with our history, our cultures and customs and we are proud to maintain this. The concept of Capitalism has however driven people to be more individualistic rather than communal, communal being the manner in which villages operate with its systems, each knowing their role within their respective village to enable the cooperation of all.
Like in any society whether it be a workplace, school, university or Government there are always leaders and within every Fijian village, the leaders are the Chiefs who have inherited the right from ancestors and acknowledged within every village.
Your idealism perhaps is viewed mainly by city dwellers because of the demands and expectations of a Capitalistic Society.
To say Chiefs are today disrespected is perhaps your views but we Fijians understand our place and structure and one respects the other so as to maintain those boundaries and structures so I disagree with you....The only thing I can say about the disrespect of the Chiefs is that Frank has caused this to happen with his political propaganda leading people to believe that the Chiefs were the influencing factors behind the previous 2000 and 1987 coup. Though some Chiefs may have played a part in them, their decision is individual. The role of the Chiefs in Government had been defined in Cessation, Independence of Fiji and the 1997 Constitution and this 1997 Constitution has been subrogated by Frank, who despite being a Fijian, has uttered and shown total disrespect to his own people and his Chiefs. You will see when Frank attended the funeral of the late Ratu Ravoka, Frank knew his place and that is as a PM (if subject of Kiuva he would not have sat where he sat) and he sat where he was expected to seat, behind his Chiefs from Bau, Burebasaga and other. His showing respect reveals that Frank understands these protocols but his vengeance of the 2000 events, has also caused him to issue political propaganda against these Chiefs from 2006.
Chiefs are representation of their individual villages and from there up to provinces. They have been recognised since cessation to independence as the voice of their people. Many of the people who grew up in villages have very limited education or preferred not to voice their opinions but that does not mean they do not have a voice. People are still individuals and our capitalist society is moving people towards these notions.
Whether a Chief is capable of participating in politics is an individual choice and should not be construed as one which the Chief may think or feel is his sole right. Democracy is guided by these rules. If you feel you have the capability so go for it but who are we to say who and why they should not stand in government. It is their individual right as a citizen to do so.
In making such a statement, many of us young educated Fijians cringe because we realise today, with education and the western influences and other races upon our country, we are rapidly losing our own identify as Fijians. Many of our customs and traditions have been replaced or changed and one may argue that everything evolves. Like Indians wish to maintain their cultural identify and the same with Indians and other races, we also wish to see the preservation of our Fijian identify because it is who we are and whether you like it or not, Chiefs make up the social fabric of our communal system.
Josateki Daulako says to Anon 9:59am...agree totally with you hence I say that we lack leaders with courage today. Leaders who are willing to face the regime. History has proven in every country facing what we are, in every warfare, in every political battle, when a leader leads from the front and confronts what people fear, the people will have the courage to follow the leader. We have lacked one since Frank committed the coup in 2006 hence, he was allowed to maintain dictatorial rule for 8 years and his subsequent win of the 2006 election. Look at the manner in which Chaudary confronted the coup perpetrators of 2000. He gained tremendous respect for his courage but my opinion is that he took the matter personal, just as Frank takes his personal and that had led to Chaudary's perhaps demise. These matters are not personal matters because it is for the people. Where are Fiji's Mandela and Ghandi.
Kutchi said...
The most regrettable part of our way forward is that the 2 supposed leaders are just worried about how to ensure that they will have a safe exit and future, after milking as much as they can from national coffers.
They seem to be quickly forgetting that the power , glory and wealth they currently enjoy all started from the coup of 2006.
"Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword" Saddam Hssein was hiding in a drain. Ghadaffi tried to disguise himself as a woman when he was caught.
Bai and Khai will be sodomised, castrated and hung at Nakobalevu mast before they are dismembered and fed to the qitawa at Nubukalou creek.
Its called power trip...I don't think Frank envisioned the power in his hands until it happened and if you have a dumb idiot taking power...powder keg ready to explode....Has anyone looked up Khaiyum's previous conviction.
Yes, if Kaiyum had a conviction then how come he was allowed to stand in the last election. The government's own rule was to exclude anyone with past criminal conviction.
If conviction is found it may bring him down...Im sure there are police officers who have this information and document
An oversight I guess my friend. ...it's called. ...power grip
....power grip
What conviction? what crime did he commit? Of course treason will be part of his criminal record in future . In the meantime I'll run a background check and hope something pops up in the system . I will update you later .
please allow me to answer a question about the whereabouts of Fiji's Mandela and Ghandi's,actually they are the ones supporting the FFP Govt, the Mandealer and Ghandus are on the other side of the parliament.
stop worrying about previous convictions,several members of the Opposition might be forced to leave parliament also.
Josateki Daulako quotes...every moment has its time. For every beginning there will always be an end. For now it may be yours but tommorow it will change hands. Cherish not what is indefinite. Thrive not in its temptation. Heed the crying hearts for those tears will confront and douse the fires of oppresion.
Kaiyum has a criminal record.
He was caught with a bomb on an aeroplane in Nadi in 1987.
The Opposition should apply the law and get this criminal thrown out of the government.
Im sure there is an honest police officer who can produce Khaiyum's previous conviction.
Interesting that the police have threatened people not to make comments about the 23 flag designs and poofters like Vili disappeared immediately...Must be up the hills of Ba..Even other FF supporters commenting on this site are not saying anything about the designs....
the problem of poor taste and poor understanding of symbolism is all what we are talking about here.
lack of wisdom from the government to keep pushing in the wrong direction.
Notice how the newspapers are not publishing any article about the issue anymore (they pass the risk to the people in the letters to the editor!)
How come the newspapers don't ask the government why they don't follow their own rules? they were supposed to select a flag amongst all proposals and then submit them to the parliament. There was supposed to be A WINNER who would raise the new flag on Fiji Day with his/her name written on a plaque... what happened to all that?!?!?
While I disagree with the authoritarian "elected regime", I can only ask that they follow at least their own rules. I am not asking for an extension of the competition as the rules were clear from the beginning. 2 months is enough and if you didn't submit anything, well that's it for you. I ask for the designs submitted to be published so that we can discuss about the quality of the selection. I don't think it is representative of the people's submissions!
@8:17 PM
Absolutely. The problem here is all about NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.
We know that many great designs would have been ruled out, and we know the 23 designs were in fact produced by Khaiyum (they look too unprofessional to be the produce of a vexillologist) or such person in the government. Look at that sun with... 11 points! 11! ELEVEN!!! Eleven for what?
There is only one way for us to judge of the integrity of the government and the flag committee: get all the proposals published.
No other way. As for SODELPA, thank you very much for not doing your job of observing the selection process by not having anyone on the committee. That was really nice of you. You might disagree with the change, but that doesn't mean you have to pull out of your responsabilities... So now you do what? you take your $$$ from the government and you will... walk in October! You guys are so smart.
Science More: Environment Water Drought California
21 of the world’s 37 biggest sources of drinking water are on the verge of disappearing
MATTHEW SPEISER
JUN. 18, 2015, 2:08 PM
The world is running out of water.
New NASA satellite data shows that a majority of the world's largest underground aquifers — the predominant source of our drinking water — are being depleted faster than they can be refilled.
From its recent 2003 to 2013 study, NASA concluded that 21 of the 37 largest aquifers (underground reservoirs that store groundwater from rain and snow) are running out too fast to be replenished.
An additional 13 are declining at a rate that puts them in a category NASA calls the "most troubled."
This is extremely troubling considering that we draw about a one-third of the world's water from aquifers.
“The situation is quite critical,” Jay Famiglietti, senior water scientist at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California and principal investigator of the University of California Irvine-led studies, told the Washington Post.
NASA gathered its data using special satellites called Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment satellites, which took precise measurements of the world’s groundwater aquifers. Since the bigger, heavier water sources exerted a stronger gravitational pull on the satellite, they could use this data to spot the largest sources of water.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-data-shows-the-world-is-running-out-of-water-2015-6#ixzz3dXdzgaNM
"3. The symbols should be drawn from the major local ethnic and religious communities"
Here there might be a problem if the designer is not well versed in vexillology.
The symbols have to be very abstract. For example, if you want to refer to the main ethnic groups (say Fijians and Indians) then you can have 2 large rectangles like on the Nigerian flag for example, but it would be a mistake to have something more "clear" (pictogram) As for religious communities (and here I suspect the archbishop might be in conflict of interets... but that's allright in Fiji...) the challenge is very difficult. You may do so if you can extract from a religious symbol something more abstract that can be shared by everybody, but that is such a difficult thing to do (and very unlikely) that it would be better to stick to something simple.
A flag has to be simple and meaningful. The 23 flags that don't have a pictogram are simple. The problem is all about the very symbolism. The crazy obsession about the number 7 (stupid) , the BLUE stars (!) , the land of the "first sun" (Japan already has that one!) and the triangle "looking forward" has been used by so many other countries that we can hardly call it original.
the level of symbolism is these flags is very very very childish. While a primary school child should be able to drae the flag, that doesn't mean the flag should be designed by a primary school child too!!!
oilei...
Don't worry about our drinking water. If the ocean runs dry then you worry.
California is getting ready to desalinate the Pacific Coast in case the long drought continues.
8.25 am. Anon
That's exactly what's happening around the world. Spring water today is big business. In the US, nearly all households are not drinking tap water but either from an underground well or from bottled water sold in stores. At home its our own world renowned Fiji Water.
In California alone, being the world's supplier of green produce, much of its water consumption comes from farms and that's why Gov Brown is pleading with Californians to limit water usage. Yard sprinkling is regulated. Home car wash is prohibited.
If big businesses continue to thrive on our natural fresh underground water , what will happen in the next 50 years.
My brother, you go home and drink a glass of water, maybe than you shall realise that the topic of conversation is FLAG here, vinaka.
Semisi said...
Our beloved country won't be the same until this current administration leave the office. they can build, develop and establish many institution to provide for the well being of its citizen. It will come to nothing, as it was established on a false foundation. What was happened in Fiji for the last few years with continue manipulate, cunning and using their position to manufacture the coups culture, using RACISM and other reason as a card to blind the people's mind and heart.
Our country won't be different from other countries that had been taken by force which so far none has been last long, regardless their powerful military. When the people are becoming hard to find air to breath, they will do anything to find a way.
Mark my words that history will repeat itself here in Fiji, when the might of the people began to move..........
The new flag had been evaluated, dissected, scrutinized, critique, praised, ridiculed, sodomised, defecated, burnt and so forth in this blog. Our proposals, complaints and recommendations had been written and presented in here yet will these change the stance of Bhai Khai on the new flag. . Big Doubt!
That's why I'm turning away to welcome a diff topic of discussion. Sa madra mai na kuila nei Kulina Kaiyum kei kakuli Vore.
Your are most probably right, but... if this is the attitude we want to have in Fiji (getting "tired" after 2 weeks) then we will end up living forever in the land of carelessness. That explain why the coup culture can go on and on and on... nobody is willing to wake up.
Taki mada!
In today's Fiji Times Proff Wadan Narsey has torn to pieces the idiotic Proff Satendra None-Done's piece on the Magna Carta.
Is AG mad or he just born like that? Only need a cat in the new design....but a talented cat.....so we have a new copycat flag
6.27pm.
Noka tale na sosoko ni bilo ya...vakawai mada.
I seem to agree with your sentiment. ..but I would only hope that the flag committee is strong and bold enough to convince Vore and Khai to go back to the initial design by each single participant and let the general public vote for the best and meaningful one. The committee's responsibility in this case is similar to a polling clerk...administering proper counting and recording.That is being transparent and clear honesty as they're trying to model.
If this is not done then our culture of coup lives on. It is a daily phenomena. Vore and Khai are taking everyone by force every single day they are in office.
....taki tale..vakasisinai
Very true, Archbishop for your leadership to define the problem here. Those who do not know the "heart" only know imposition and dictatorship which is what Bainimarama's Fiji flag is all about. He is a bully along with his puppeteer.
Why are we being force to choose among the shortlisted flags, in the first we did not want to change it anyway.
AG Wasn't born mad, he just grew greedy, when he got into power with Bainimarama government, he was caught in the greed and power, he has started thinking of himself as the most powerful person in Fiji, which is indeed true, he knows he is nothing without Bainimarama and Bainimarama know he is brainless so he needs khaiyums brain, but these two idiots wont last long,they will fall in the black hole they have dug for Fiji. Being bully wasn't necessary for tham but they have gotten accustomed to bullying, they don't know they are awakening the power of people by continuing to be morons.
The following quote is from Activist Post on climate change as a ruse to create the New World Order:
“Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s top business advisor on Friday claimed climate change was a ruse encouraged by the United Nations to create a new authoritarian world order under its control.
“Maurice Newman, chairman of the Prime Minister’s Business Advisory Council, said the real agenda was “concentrated political authority. Global warming is the hook”.
“In a column for The Australian newspaper to coincide with a visit by UN climate chief Christiana Figueres, he added that the world had been “subjected to extravagance from climate catastrophists for close to 50 years”.
“It’s a well-kept secret, but 95 percent of the climate models we are told prove the link between human CO2 emissions and catastrophic global warming have been found, after nearly two decades of temperature stasis, to be in error,” he said, without providing evidence.
“Newman, a former chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, is a known climate change sceptic but he went further by accusing the UN of being involved in a SCAM.
“Gee. A SCAM that has been “encouraged by the United Nations” to bring about “concentrated political authority” that will help to create “a new authoritarian world order under its control.” You don’t say.”
A special commission has been set up to examine how much the official temperature data has been compromised. Well, good luck with that, and we hope to see some prosecutions of corrupt scientists.
Geoengineering and CERN.
The chemtrail air fleet.
How California’s government is responding to the drought. Big changes are in the works. More reporting from TABU. We are beginning to see the various tentacles of the octopus come together to form the socialist prison state. California is a key target, and we expect the Jade Helm exercises to take down resistance in the most conservative states.
aND not so - its a myth - that if the world population farted all at once we are emitting lethal gas that will cause global warming!
How easily do we all get sucked or brainwashed about how humans are destroying the world through CO2 emissions.
And the pope says in his encyclical that we should worship mother earth...let mother earth forgive us. Perhaps this is the result of chemtrail spraying that is affecting human intelligence...cause seems like we are lacking or easily duped by world government authorisation.
What's in a flag again???
My friends, we can talk about anything regarding the illegal current administration and the way they conduct themselves in running the country. From day one after they took over in 2006 up to now, what have it change? Shall we say that the new parliament came about, because the new system was been carefully established to elect a democratic form of government to take care of it citizen????
What a load of rubbish. There are nothing change in term of governing our people. They still run the country exactly the same with what happened from day one since they take over.
So, what will we do to help bring back the freedom to our land? There are many ways, but I strongly believed that if everyone of us that are willing to sacrifice their time and write down a clear message of condemnation in the strongest word that you can, perhaps that will give our people a message that this current leaders are just using us for their own benefit.
They government leaders are laughing at us, when they put up something for discussing like the choosing of the flag. because they already know the answer before they ask for our commend.
Agree 100% for what Wadan wrote. Though I didn't disagree totally with Herr and Nandan on the Magna carter their articles are seen to support the 2013 constitution through selective clauses while leaving out clauses against it. This is devious and fraudulent to a student of history.
Then what design do you want on our flag?
Looks like you don't want any at all.
The only design that I think of that best suit your taste and not childish is a white flag carrying a picture of two asses with their rears facing out. That carries a lot of meaning.
White means it is crystal clear that Fiji is controlled and run by 2 asses.
The 2 asses are making an ass of it's people.
People are united by 2 asses. The 2 asses are real arseholes.
At last, a beginning of discussion with Mr. Bainimarama?
THE public's reaction to the 23 new flag designs has not been entirely positive, Prime Minister Voreqe Bainimarama has confirmed.
And the Prime Minister has welcomed public debate on the new flag designs.
"I welcome this debate about the designs, the criticism of designs, as well as the positive responses that have come in," Mr Bainimarama said while opening the Raiwai Multi Purpose Sporting Court yesterday.
"As you all know, we have a range of designs that people are now being asked to comment on.
"And I know that the public reaction to the 23 designs that have been put out hasn't been entirely positive; we also know that many Fijians do not object to the flag to being changed but want a design they like," Mr Bainimarama said.
He said a lot of Fijians were now, only after the designs had been put out, getting engaged and suggesting new ideas.
"In our vakamalua attitude to most things, it sometimes takes us Fijians a while to get involved, but now that is happening. And that is good," he said.
He said none of the current designs were carved in stone and if necessary, they would review the current process to get the right result.
Mr Bainimarama has urged every Fijian of every age and background to give his/her opinion on the current designs, suggest new designs and join the crusade to find a national symbol that everyone could identify with.
"A design that speaks to the experience of being a Fijian now and in the future, not the experience of our colonial past. A great flag for a great country," he said.
http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=310623
Since I agree that Fiji needs to mature and reach full adulthood, I can only support the idea of a change of flag.
But I am asking for a real OPEN and DEMOCRATIC process, which means that the best ORIGINAL designs shall be published independently of the Flag Committee, so that the PEOPLE can guide the committee with their opinions and advice. I suppose that 200 flags would be enough, maybe 100. But we need to have a VARIETY of designs without interference from the top. That means SODELPA should grow up and send some observers at least. I would respect their choicd of not picking a new flag, but at least go and OBSERVE what is happening!
Come on guys, we are now living in 2015 on WEB 2.0 where it is easy to publish all designs with a description of the symbolism of each of them (as most of the designs are submitted by email, this is just a copy/paste job!) and a better interface than the one on newfijiflag.com where we have to go through all the list one by one instead of having a nice gallery of flags (we could click on a flag to get to a proper description of its symbolism)
Come on FF and Flag Committee, don't mess a great opportunity to give Fiji a nice symbol!!!
Bainimarama is insistent on our colonial past being completely eliminated from our flag symbols. Perhaps he should remember that there was more freedom of expression and association during those 97 years than we are experiencing currently in this purportedly democratic dictatorship.
The world regarded Fiji as "the way the world should be" during those years and immediately after, but the coups have now changed Fiji to "a troubled land in paradise".
The colonial past cannot be changed. And if we carry on and remain in this current path of coups, limiting freedom, disenfranchising the native Fijian rights and usurping their lands, government controlling the courts, depriving the citizens from drafting their constitution, making election laws and changing them during elections and etc...etc.., we are looking at a dismal future where the colonial past will always be in our fond memories.
Those were the days when our soldiers who answered the call to fight against tyranny and oppression not because of how much they were going to be paid but because they held freedom dear in their hearts and where the slogan, "For your tomorrows..., we sacrifice our todays..." were proven to be so true and so inspiring.
Sa dri yani...
@5:27 PM Humans love war. They don't need a pay check... look at history! It is pathetic that so many people love the idea to die under a flag when we want to live under it. Men are prehistoric.
Fiji's flag is really outdated and I believe that only a colonized mind can really love the idea of having an Union Jack PLUS a lion PLUS the St-George Cross MINUS the Fijian warriors and the motto on his flag... At least NZ, Australia and Tuvalu thought the Union Jack was enough...but Fiji need all the symbols of colonialism.
The problem here is all about good taste anyway. A good flag should not have another country's flag on it and no coats of arms. let's start from there. If a link with UK is to be kept, it has to be using a smart symbolism. And the 23 flags proposed have poor symbolism, poor choice of colors and many are too complex to draw.
The war of words between America and Russia is escalating. So, too, is the movement of implements of war — from U.S. fighter jets to Russian nuclear weapons.
So is an actual war imminent?
No one in Russia, NATO or the United States has gone that far yet. Still, the rhetoric and actions from both sides have definitely ratcheted up in recent days, raising concerns of a new arms race — if not worse — amid tensions both sides blame on each other.
The major players all claim their movements are defensive and necessary responses to their foe’s provocation. None has talked of an invasion. Still, that’s not what some experts are worried about. They say a bigger fear is what things can happen, accidentally, when you have increasingly powerful military forces lined up so close to each other…
@7:37 stop spaming this forum! we're here to talk about the FLAG.
Yes and I thank C45 for being our voice to the world. It's crystal clear that he is referring to feedbacks from c45 .
Vinaka vakalevu c45. You...rock!
I think that we all share one thing in common : we love Fiji (with a few exceptions like those racists writing crap here or those who have their private agendas)
Certainly Fiji is a great country and deserves a great flag, no one can deny that. And anyone with half of a brain would understand why the flag has to be changed : we are not teenagers anymore, but ADULTS. Sad to see Pita Waqavonovono... grow up man!!!
I think one of the "flaws" from the government side has been to impose a theme for the flag (new Fiji, Fiji forward, etc.) The simple fact that we change the flag is in ITSELF a reference to a new Fiji... that's probably enough! So there is no need to reuse the triangle stuff (or the weird blue stars) to show that "forward" concept. There are plenty other ways to design a flag without pointing too much to "change". It's been done by many other countries like Guyana and has become somewhat too common and dull.
For many of us, obviously, we refuse to discard our past (the Fiji we love is the product of our history after all!!!) and we should not suggest on our flag that we turn our back on everything (of course we turn our back on a few things, but it's not true that ALL of our history was wrong... and even in our mistakes, we did much better than most, if not all, other nations... even in our failures we are a bit more of the way the world should be than countries in the Middle East, Africa, Asia or Europe...)
Probably that is where the problem is. Having a theme might be "ok", but it should not be restrictive as it limits the acceptable designs a lot! All our neighbours became independent and turned a page on "something" at some point, but... did they all end up with symbols about "change"? No. There is a diversity of flags, from PNG to Federated States of Micronesia, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Kiribati and Nauru for example. Maybe we should take our inspiration in our region so that our flag fits in the big picture of Oceania...
There is also one VERY IMPORTANT thing to consider from the government point of view : the Opposition might be childish, but that doesn't mean all SODELPA people are... and if you want to win the HEARTS of a lot of people, which is VERY IMPORTANT here, then you need to show some consideration for those who want to keep a connection with the major Christian heritage (that doesn't mean having a cross, but we could have a color like white to symbolize the peace that came with missionaries and the British administration... or Cakobau dove in a very stylized fashion instead of turtles, etc... ) If we give more than one meaning to a color, then it can also please everybody. What I mean here is that we should not RULE OUT symbols referring to our religions or ethnic groups, as the archbishop said.
These 23 flags have been selected because of their lack of connection with the past. We may need to review that idea now... or simply give up the idea of showing "time" on our flag and focus on something else like our neighbours did on their flags...
I suppose showing respect for our ancestors might be a better idea actually than turning our back on them. Somehow we want to acknowledge both the past and the future... a lesson of humility for all of us, we need to look both ways!
If that theme of "looking forward only" was to be reconsidered, then I guess there might be at least 100 other good flags in the list tomorrow and we would be pleased to have a look at them...
There is of course the problem of good taste too... for example, light yellow and light blue are a bit hard to distinguish (take that tiny yellow sun on a blue field... nice concept, similar to Palau, but much less visible at a distance... could be bigger, maybe white on a slightly darker shade of blue and it would already be more visible) The FSM have 4 small white stars on the same blue field and they are more visible I think... and certainly more beautiful than yellow like on Tuvalu's flag... "good taste" might be by far the most subjective thing, but I believe that the real failure of those 23 flags is mostly in their symbolism... The artist didn't even bothered to count the number of sun rays in one case where it could have been 14 instead of 11...Those flags seem to have been drawn quickly... very quickly!
Let's open the range of acceptable flags (it doesn't have to be 1000, but if we have 50 VERY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS that would be perfect) We don't want 5 versions of the same flag : if there is a need to produce a flag in so many versions, it's because the symbolism failed... why a boat in the middle and then on the left on the next flag? If you can switch the colors or position of symbols (or even the symbols themselves...) then probably you need to think more about your flag...
"Bainimarama is insistent on our colonial past being completely eliminated from our flag symbols."
Very true, and that is where the problem lies. It's not that much removing the Union Jack the problem for a lot of us, but removing its "spirit" from the flag, like if all that was British was wrong... That's unacceptable! If you want to please those opposed to the change, you need to take their feelings into account...
A good symbolism would respect the British heritage and would also respect the history of Fiji (and I am not only thinking about WW2!!!!) The good news for Bainimarama is that you don't need an Union Jack of a lion or a cross to do that. You can do it in some other ways, in more subtle ways I shall say. We Fijians have a deep sense of our history and the best way to have a consensus around the new flag is to open some doors to those who think differently.
One rule to design a good flag is to ask yourself one question : could that flag also represent some other nation?
If the answer is "yes", then maybe the symbolism is not so good.
Take Palau for example. Yellow circle on blue background. That could be any country in the Pacific...
take Nauru : it is symbolized by a white 12-pointed star. Each point represents one of the 12 indigenous tribes on the island. That could not apply to Tonga. So Nauru's flag is better than Palau as far as symbolism is concerned.
Take Kiribati : The 17 rays of the sun represent the 16 Gilbert Islands and Banaba (former Ocean Island). It couldn't be Fiji!
If we look at many of those 23 flags, we can see that they fail in representing Fiji in a way that is really...FIJIAN! Most of those 23 flags could be used by any other country in the tropics...The 17 rays of the sun represent the 16 Gilbert Islands and Banaba (former Ocean Island).
Leave the Fijian Flag symbols as they are but remove the Lion and
replace it with a Whale? Whale is an ancient Fijian symbol which
we needs to protect.
@11:11 No coats of arms on a flag. A flag is NOT coats of arms. Coats or arms is like the signature of a country. It is a complex symbol because no one should be able to draw it easily, like a signature.
A flag has to be visible from the distance. Coats of arms are intended for official documents and be printed on pieces of paper mainly.
A flag is a flag, and coats of arms are coats of arms. How come nobody gets it our country?!?!?
As for the Union Jack, you may as well fly it alongside the Fiji flag if you like, but a flag of an independant nation doesn't have the flag of another independant country on it. What would you do if UK changes its own flag?
The bizarre thing in Fiji is that we haven't got a flag. The only Fijian thing is the blue field...
@11:11 By the way, we don't use symbols like whales for the sake of using them. They must mean something in the context of the flag. You might as well say a tabua...well...a tabua is a powerful symbol in the Fijian tradition, it is a kind of "currency" but with a noble component to it. But it is irrelevant on a FLAG. And a flag should not have pictograms, unless they are very very very simple (one polygon only)
Take 5 minutes to have a look at all national flags, just google "list of all national flags" and try to see what is the NORM and not the exception. The shape of Nepal's flag is an exception = NOT GOOD. The text on Saudi Arabia's flag is an exception = NOT GOOD, the complex dragon on Bhutan's flag is an exception = NOT GOOD, the 50 stars on American Flag is an exception = NOT GOOD.
A good flag is a flag that is not exceptional because of some distinct feature (trying to be distinct for the sake of being distinct is NOT GOOD) We need to have a good symbolism and colors that match together. It's that simple.
White and blue like Micronesia is beautiful. Yellow and blue like Palau is so so...
Today in the Times we have this letter:
Flag scenario HAS Simon Hazelman (FT 20/6) heard the saying 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'? If he acquaints himself with what the idiom means, he would have a better understanding on why so many of his compatriots do not favour a change of the current Fiji flag.
RAJEND NAIDU Sydney, Australia
I thought Rajend would have the wisdom to understand what is problematic with the flag... what if it was an American flag instead of a British Union Jack? After all America saved the Pacific Islands during WW2.
Rajend should do some research on flag design. A lot of people in Fiji should do the same thing.
Good bye bananas!
Simon Hazelman went from supporting the change to opposing it after he saw the 23 proposed designs. Then he chosed to support flag #50...out of good faith I suppose.
An old saying says only fools don't change their mind... I can follow his way of thinking... but I rather think it would be better to try harder to find a consensus by having a more honest and open competition. So far, the Flag Committee is very low profile. ..
This is the way I think we should go about it:
1) The Flag Committee should "get rid" of all ridiculous flags (sorry to say that to those who tried hard to design a new flag...) By ridiculous I mean most of the flags we saw in the media (the "Bula Fiji" one with coats of arms and map of Fiji is a good example...) We need flags that JUST MEET the criterions of a "good flag" : no text, simple, no pictograms, etc... We might end up with only 300 flags out of 2000, judging from what we have seen so far... 300 flags can be easily printed in a newspaper (5 pages with 60 flags) and a short explanation of the symbolism for each flag. Compare that to the long lists of signatures during the elections... it's NOTHING!!! NO EDITING from the Committee allowed. The Flag Committee is there to chose a list of flags, they are not there to actually design the new flag!!! Otherwise, what's the point of the whole competition?!?!
2) The public can give their opinion about those new flags and then the Committee can bring down the list to some 20 flags. That list should be given to parliament. No interference from politicians whatsoever.
3) Parliament vote.
If those 3 steps are followed, we share the decision between the people (designers), the Committee (preselection), the people again (everybody, not only designers) and then the elected MPs. That would be FAIR.
Right now, we all feel like the whole democratic process was everything but democratic. The general perception of the public matters in a democracy!
Step 3 could follow a poll to see if a majority of Fijians prefer the new flag to the old one... so that MPs can vote according to what they think is right. I ask for a FREE and SECRET vote.
The very fact that ALL countries using the Union Jack on their national flag have either ...
- removed it permanently in the past (Canada)
- removed it not permanently (Tuvalu)
- thought seriously about removing it (Australia)
- undertaken a competition to change it (New Zealand)
SHOW that something is wrong. If we ask the people to chose between a new flag and the old flag in a poll and we get something like 50-50, it means the old flag is actually quite bad because it has the advantage of "history". A really good flag should get 80% plus support after 45 years...
My take is that the old flag should get 60%-70% plus support in a poll over many weeks (cheaper than a referendum) in order to remain. Otherwise, the new flag will win.
What seems obvious is that we need that new flag before having a final poll... and I don't think that any of those 23 flags would win... and mind you we have a very colonial flag!!! Come on guys, a little bit of imagination!!!!
I just googled "world flags ranking" and obviously the rest of the world never puts our flag in the top... :( Some sites puts our flag at the bottom and most never in the top 50...
It's not just about what WE think about our flag, but what the rest of the world thinks too...
If everybody overseas says that our Fiji Airways design is the best (we won many awards) then it means we did a good job. Air Pacific had the Gay Pride logo on it and nobody bothered to change it... what does it say about us?
We need the same change about our new flag, but we don't want a commercial logo!!! It has to be different. A flag is a flag!
If you like pink and brown like some bus companies in Fiji but everbody thinks it's really ugly to the extend they take pictures and put them online to make fun of the companies, well.. maybe it means something...
I never liked our flag since I was a child. It just looks weird... and it seems that it is what most people think OUTSIDE of Fiji at least!
Thanks for the update. It's fact that every single human today must educate him/herself of the dangers lurking ahead in terms of what's going on in the world.
The US/Russia relation is worsening day by day with Russia on the verge of using its nuclear to curb threats of continued sanctions from the West headed by the US. While Putin is outsmarting everyone knowing that he has the most sophisticated military arsenal on planet Obama is weakening its own through massive military budget cuts.
Today the US is more focused on building defensive devices/shields for protection from Russia ' s threat.
WW3 is not a nuclear war but a war of indignation where electric and electronic tech will be the tool of surprise. The country with the biggest and enormous EMP on planet is Russia.
While the Flag issue rages on one must not lose sight of the fact that we in Fiji, a speck in the map is part of the global network. What happens on the other side of planet will be felt here.
Therefore lets utilize every opportunity the world of information has offered us and create an awareness on what's going on within and around us.
http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/prettiest-flag?page=2
Fiji flag not sooo good, but not the worst either. Around 3 "dislikes" for every "likes"... a little bit lower than average.
Interesting to see that not a single flag ends up with a majority of "likes" ... sounds like it will be difficult to find a consensus anyway!
@3:23PM irrelevant. vinaka
@Anonymous 3:23PM
The American government is evil.
They along with the Israelis destroyed the Twin Towers or WTC. Everybody knows that.
And we know they shot down the Malaysian Airlines over Ukraine.
Funny how they get their lackies like Australia to do the propaganda for them.
The day after Malaysian Airlines was shot down, Tony Abbot and Julia Bishop were jumping up and down and blaming the Russians.
Wow! Thats a big call.
Thats even before any evidence was gathered. What a bunch of fuckwits.
I thought Australia's justice system says You are innocent until proven guilty....but Australia's leadership straightaway on the next day on TV blamed the Russians.
I dont know how Australia's leaders can be so idiotic.
The only other possible reason for their behaviour is that America must have called them and told them to blame Russia.
How childish.
We the people are not easily fooled. Hehehehe.
Remember the evil American governmentis also advising Bainimarama. They got people on the ground in Fiji.
Changing the flag is very important part of neutralising a population's sense of pride.
Well said @3.23pm!!!
And NO, @3.27pm, it is definitely not irrelevant! You are just being ignorant to what is happening with world powers who are on the verge of eliminating each other with war arsenals and most probably nuclear! The USA and its impending economic crisis is just around the block.
As correctly stated by 3.23pm, it takes the USA and other big countries to FALL which is very likely to happen and poor Fiji with its ongoing tideous talanoa about the new flag will receive the rippling effects so bad that the big hoo-ha time wastage on the flag will be considered a complete waste of precious time!!! You'd best picture yourself holding just the pole as everything will be deemed meaningless except saving your life !!
Good sense shall prevail.
@3.53pm
Yes just like the USA is force-feeding the people of their "once upon a time nation so proud and fair but is no longer the same land of freedom and justice" so shall it be for Fiji. Look at the state of social and economic affairs of the USA and know that something big is about to hit them!
We in Fiji who dare to venture for knowledge and truth are not fools. We do have our chosen STOOGES in power who are misleading the people.
Its quite frightening to know that we have RULES concerning the flag that is to be respected so highly that we may as well say we're being forced to WORSHIP and BOW before this new flag or else get thrown into timbaktoo for years!!
As in AMERICA with all the shocking changes taking place for the worst so shall it be around the globe not forgetting our little tiny spec in the ocean 'Fiji'!
If we're not becoming a communist nation, then why all the forceful harsh laws being shoved at our faces huh?>
Isou sara...if Frank did not withdraw the flag...keitou march this week...Lucky saraga boy...
@4:01 get lost.
@4:14PM we have heard that before...
4.14pm...vaqakoro
4.25 pm.
Piece of crap
let's stick to the issue here.
If you are pro-government, your position can be:
1) I dislike so much the colonial flag that anything else would be better.
2) I dislike the colonial flag but I need a nice flag to support the change.
3) I don't have an opinion about the colonial flag and I will consider the quality of the new proposal before making a choice.
4) I like the colonial flag.
If you are anti-government, your position can be:
5) Don't touch to my colonial flag.
6) If you can show me a better flag, I will consider it.
7) I don't like the colonial flag at all and I support the change, whatever the new flag is.
8) I don't like the colonial flag, but I ask for a democratic process to change it.
It is likely that a majority of the population of Fiji could fall in the category 1-2-3-6-7-8.
The challenge for Bainimarama will be to handle the issue with diplomacy.
Vakamalua mada!
"“I urge every Fijian of every age and background to give your opinions on the current designs, suggest new designs and join our crusade to find a national symbol we can all identify with – a design that speaks to the experience of being a Fijian now and in the future, not the experience of our colonial past. A great flag for a great country.”
Here I wonder what Bainimarama means. The future? God knows what it will be. Now? Well... Fiji is still made of 333 islands or so. The colonial past? Of course many of us want to get rid of the SYMBOLS of our colonial past as long as they carry ambiguity or may be inappropriate. I think the bananas are VERY inappropriate. The Union Jack means that we are a British territory to anyone who knows nothing about us Fijians.
But I am not sure what Bainimarama means by "colonial past". Can we have a flag linked to our history? I think it would be wise. Can we preserve a link with the UK in a more subtle manner? I hope so. If we are to gain a maximum of support about this flag change, we will have to reevaluate the QUALITY of our current symbolism, that doesn't mean to deny our past. Anti-colonial doesn't mean anti-British. Anti-colonial doesn't mean anti-history.
Our past is more relevant than our future since we have got no idea what the future will be! Let's simply improve the symbolism on our flag and respect the rules of vexillology. That should be enough to get the support of a large chunk of the population.
If we can't please (at least secretly) a certain proportion of the opposition, it will be a very unpleasant journey... let's be DEMOCRATIC!
I appreciate the "ideas" by the Archbishop.
The flag needs "ideas" from our leaders, Chiefs, businessmen, Pastors, Talatala, school children, etc..it should not be put into competition in the first place
The flag must represent "freedom" and not "undemocratic"
The new flag must have the blessing of the "People" (as written in the constitution "We the People"
Fiji must not forget God, looking back to the past, where we are now and into the future.....as in Genesis - God's promised to Abraham
1. I will make you a great nation.
2. I will bless you.
3. I will make your name great.
4. You will be a blessing.
5. I will bless those who bless you.
6. I will curse those who curse you.
7. All people on earth will be blessed through you.
8. I will give you the land of Canaan.
@6:22PM
I respect your view, even though I think that a national flag is not a "religious flag" so to speak.
We should respect everybody and should we chose to use a symbol that has a religious link (like the British did on their flag actually) then it would be nice to think carefully about it... In my opinion, New Zealand and Australia with their southern cross may have found a nice solution to the problem. Nobody overthere would oppose the southern cross, only the Union Jack is an issue... and not because of its "crosses" but because its colonial flavor.
Actually, come to think about it, maybe Fiji should use the southern cross as well? Nobody thought about it... not a single proposal I've seen used it. Food for thought...
to be democratic, I think that Bainimarama should give up the idea of "locking" the new flag into the constitution. The reason is simple: if the flag is accepted by the People, then there will be no fear of going back to the colonial flag. If the new flag is not genuinely accepted by the people, we want to have the right to change it again through a simple electoral process (whether that means going back to the colonial flag or having a new competition). We don't want to WASTE MORE MONEY in a referendum.
We accept that the MPs are free to take a decision on our behalf at the end of the day since we voted them into parliament. They have to listen to us and if they do so, things will be alright. A simple poll should be enough to measure the public acceptance of the new flag and all MPs should then vote (secret vote would be more genuine). If we are really unhappy after the whole process is finished, we want to have the possibility to change the flag in 4, 8 or 12 years whatever. If we are really happy after a little while (assuming it always take some time to accept change) then we can "lock" the new flag in the constitution like Khaiyum wants to do right now (which is a big mistake).
That would be a very honest gesture of Bainimarama towards democracy. Make the competition more transparent by following the rules chosen initially. The flag committee is not there to design the flag! Then just listen to the people and don't threaten those who oppose the change...they have the right to do so!
My friend, when another coup eventuates and this government is gotten rid of, than nothing will be locked into the constitution, the constitution will be thrown out the door, the constitution and the decrees mean nothing, its just a big joke, laugh about it like I do, let khaiyum lock everything in the constitution, its meaningless, after next coup, the constitution will be burnt like the ghai constitution was burnt, So don't worry about it, JUST LAUGH AT THE FACT THE KHAIYUM THINKS HE IS HERE TO STAY, I haven't heard a funnier joke than this one.His and bainis time will come in due time!
Vili Rakoro said...
Since Bainimarama hates the Colonial symbols, how about he change the Fiji Military insignia first before thinking about the flag.
It has a lion and a crown on it.
I think they should change the Fiji Military insignia first and see what people think.
They should change the Lion to a Snake, because snake is native to Fiji.
May be 2 snakes.
@8:03 PM yes I know that's a possibility. The future is always unpredictable.
But as I love Fiji, and as I never supported any coup, I think this big circus has to end some day. Whatever the constitution is, if we the People are unhappy and our politicians listen to us, they can actually change the constitution, little by little. Make the new laws and have a referendum would be better than a coup! That would be the wise option because truly, we can't afford another coup. The country will go bankrupt. I suppose we all need to swallow our little pill and do something good for our country. It is impossible to please everybody all the time... I can see good and bad things on both side of the parliament and I think that any enlighten person can do so as well.
I think Fiji deserves a great flag, a flag without obvious symbols of our colonial past but with a friendly reference to the UK.
@8:17 I think we all thought about that one... hahhaha Queen Elizabeth Barracks...
it is actually a colonial nonsense too...
well apparently they want to change the coats of arms too now... if you look at most countries' coats of arms, they use elements from the flag in a way or in another... so when chosing the new flag keep in mind that the coats of arms will likely be changed accordingly!
I would suggest not to worry about the new flag too much, it aint going anywhere, after this government is kicked out, the very first thing that will be done is to raise our very own immensely loved old flag to show that we are once again, Fiji as it is supposed to be, no racism, no dictatorship, a new government that hears plight of all and respects the view of people and believes in cooperation and engagement of people at the ground level, nothing will be forced upon institutions and people, everything will happen collectively with mutual respect, A new Fiji. And yes, the whole world will be shown the true colour of this government and all that they did since they tookover, and BTW, proof of election ridging will also be shown to the international community. PERIOD.
@0645PM
The ISIS flag is a "religious flag"..motto - conquer and occupy, our new national flag should be a "born again" Christianized flag
Our new flag must have a "symbol" to represent Christianity, why? My grandfather, a cannibal became a human when he accepted Jesus Christ
@745PM
The FFP has an undemocratic way of doing things
Yet, our national motto says: Fear God and Honor the Queen. But we have chopped of the Queens head in our currency, trying to erase the Queen's escutcheon, kill the golden lion and crucify St George on the cross
I am not a supporter of FF, but I am a honest person. What I have seen so far in Fiji is that the election results actually reflect the will of the people. SODELPA has become a "village party" and Fiji is moving towards urbanisation. My analysis is that FF gave a lot of freedom to our people (ni-Vanuatu, Solomoners, iTaukeis, Indians, etc.) Freedom from our own culture actually! Have you noticed how elders and turaga ni koro around the country complain that their own people don't listen to them anymore? that is the weird thing...
It took me some time to understand the magnitude of the change in the mindset of the new generation. I suppose I am getting old. We Fijians are not very comfortable to talk about it, but let the people vote secretly and you see what they want... I suspect that a lot of people in villages think that their vote is not secret so therefore they vote along their talatala's line... one Fijian lady in a nearby village was surprised when I told her it was impossible for her husband to know how she voted during a previous election... so I think we have to look at both sides of the story.
The fact that the voting age has been lowered also explain the results. SODELPA is going nowhere. Fiji will need a new Opposition party and that will require a merging of iTaukei and Indian interests (not a bad thing at all!!!)
You sound a little bit too much like a disgruntled Mike Beddoes to me... I reckon SODELPA failed miserably. We need a new opposition.
As for the change of flag, it will depend of the mana of our new flag. Time will tell.
I support change but change of the government.As for the flag, if another coup happens, I bet it will be first thing that will be burnt followed by the constitution because both have been forced upon us. Well, if FF doesn't change its ways, than eventually the civilians are going to say enough is enough, people are getting tired of the government of the day, forget about the opposition, they are wasteless. Another coup is imminent if bainikhaiyum don't change they ways, They better start behaving and treating the citizens of this country with respect.
Since we hate all things Colonial then Queen Elizabeth Barracks should change its name to Vutusona Barracks ie VB for short.
Queens Road shall be called Look North Road and the Kings Road should be called Look South Road.
Colonial War Memorial Hospital should change its name too. Maybe call it Waimanu Road Hospital.
Please keep the Cross of Jesus Christ on the new flag.It always gives me goosebumps, when our boys score a try in rugby sevens, make the sign on the Cross,point to the heavens, the commentator quips, 'This is a deeply religious nation'...they're giving thanks to the Man up above'
With deep respects to our diversity and religions, Fijians, yes, the natives of this islands are called, we would humbly, request to have the 'Sign' or symbol of our faith, Jesus Christ's Cross, on the new flag which is missing from those shown.
If cross or reference to Christ is put on the flag, its reference is Christianity, Fiji being a multiracial country doesn't want symbolism of one ethinic group, That kindaa flag has SODELPA WRITTEN ALL OVER IT.OOPS.
Tomasi said...
Friends and fellow Fijians. I believe that there is a consensus amongst a great majority of people of every community, that Fiji has now reached a place of reckoning. Much has gone on since that fateful day in December 2006, when Voreqe and his group of men illegally took control of the Government and our nation. From that day on, they have methodically, systematically dismantled key institutions and processes. The flag is just one of the many dictatorial actions and decisions by Khai and Bhai that powerfully demonstrates how blatantly arrogant and evil they are. Much of what they had done are absolutely illegal, immoral and will drastically change the social, political and economic dynamics and stability of this nation. If allowed to continue, Voreqe, Khaiyum and their regime and their advisers in the shadows will cause more pain and destruction. I will make this bold statement out my love for our nation and all its communities and citizens. Khaiyum and Voreqe have been allowed too much power and control. Parliament only serves to perpetuate and increase their control. THIS REGIME IS OUT OF CONTROL. KHAIYUM IS ABSOLUTELY OUT OF CONTROL. WE THE PEOPLE MUST ACT NOW TO STOP THEIR THUGGERY, DESPOTISM, NEPOTISM, TYRRANY AND EVIL ACTIONS. IT IS TIME TO TAKE THEM OUT SO THAT WE MAY BEGIN TO TALK AND AGREE AGAIN AS A NATION OF DECENT AND GOD FEARING PEOPLE ON WHERE AND HOW TO GO ON FROM HERE.
One day, history will judge us on how we have lived our lives in accordance with the longstanding principles of righteousness, truth, justice and freedom. One day, our succeeding generations will survey the history of our young nation, and pause, ... to note, that in 2015, after having waited patiently for nine long years, we the people of Fiji finally stood up against an evil group of men and women who have sought to destroy our nation by force and political and legal subterfuge. Let us not delay or hesitate anymore. This regime is out of control. They have defied every legal code and even trashed our Constitution. They have stolen, robbed, murdered, lied, and blatantly paraded themselves as almighty powerful rulers disregarding our rights and freedoms and our well being. It is time to for us the people to act.
I humbly ask our leaders in Parliament and others in all corners and sectors of Fiji. Khaiyum and Bhai are out of control. We must act NOW. We must act decisively. We must act together to save our nation from civil war.
Bhai and Khai did trash our 1997 constitution by illegally abrogating it through the former President Rt. Iloilovatu who was senile. And then they burned the proposed peoples' constitution drafted by Yagesh Ghai, while shoving down our throats the present illegal constitution without the peoples' permission. And tnen now, they are trying to change the flag design and symbol in that they are forcing us to forget our past 97 years of peace and prosperity and civilization after the deed of cession to Great Britain.
Now they want us to look into their kind of dismal future with tyrannical regimes who do not respect freedom of association, speech and thought for fear that they would lose their grip on powerless citizens especially the indigenous people.
Thank you Tomasi. It appears they are losing their credibility now as they attempt to further their dictatorial agendas for personal and selfish gains.
Long live the Bainimarama government and the Military.You are the minority and we are the majority.If you don't like it then take it like a bitch and yes that's right ACCEPT IT.The FF is the peoples party and we will completely eradicate those who are against us.IF YOU NOT WITH US THEN YOU ARE AGAINST US.I assure those who are against us to give up because we the majority will remove and eradicate you once and for all. Long live Bainimarama love live the REPUBLIC OF FIJI.
Long live Frank and Mary Kean... I mean Bainimarama... Long live Khaiyum and his many wives... and 77 virgins.. (I always wonder why 77..why not 1 million or 100 or 50...why only 77...) Long live Royal Fiji Military opps Republic Of Fiji Military and the Queen Elizabeth Barracks.... We are not with you so we are against you... Eradication is a process called racial and mass extinction. You are the party of Indians and 40% of Fijians. May you live a short life and suffer sudden death....
FFirst supporters days are sooooo bad that they hiding behind khaiyums skirt. If you do that the only thing he will do is SHIT IN YOUR FACE. That's whats he has been doing so far.
9.33am. This is pretty cool. I agree totally and beg the committee to consider these points in their finality but with time gap zeroing in I would welcome something SPECIFIC. -A design , not a guide. Perhaps that's what the committee wants now.
@9:15 AM
I think you fail to accept the result of the elections... what I mean here is simple: we all know what happened in Fiji after 2006 (crimes, Ghai constitution, etc.) and we all know that when it comes to corruption / mismanagement, it is pretty much business as usual... business as it was before. Let's not be too cynical, but that's it. Somehow, Fijians think that SODELPA is worst than FF... to do a revolution, you need more than 60% AGAINST the government...not in favor of them... Everything played in favor of SODELPA in theory... but somehow they managed to lose... in any other democracy, Kepa would have given up her job the very night she lost the elections! Think about it...
9.33am said it the right way : "even in our mistakes, we did much better than most, if not all, other nations... even in our failures we are a bit more of the way the world should be"
Violence is not the solution, and certainly won't please those asking for Jesus' cross (10:22PM). If you are a follower of Jesus, ask yourself what He would do... what did he do with the Roman Emperor?
@11:38 PM Here I think the suggestion of 6:45 PM (the southern cross) might be the way forward as it is not per say a religious symbol, but may carry a subtle symbol to show respect to missionaries without whom none of us would be here today to talk about the new flag. By the way, I have always been proud of Fiji because we are a member of the 3 Union Jack countries (NZ and AUS) NZ will probably remove its Union Jack, and Australia will probably do it "one day", certainly if Scotland leaves the UK! So now to keep our link with our big brothers (I know some PM don't like them but we PEOPLE all love Aussies and Kiwis) we could have our own southern cross but on our lovely blue field. What say? Anyway, the southern cross doesn't belong to anyone. If Indians can live under the cross in NZ or Australia, why not Fiji? The cross is not just a symbol for Christianity, but also for the VALUES of Christianity. These are not in contradiction with other religions. I have seen the cross being raised on hindu flags in hindu temple alongside with the hindu symbols and islamic symbols... no one is against the cross, that would be childish! We all have to make compromises to find an acceptable flag.
@1:14PM Take Cakobau's flag. Remove his coats of arms and put a white southern cross on the blue half, right in the middle? Simple, elegant and show respect to our REAL FIJIAN FLAG!
when you think about it, our real non colonial fijian flag is cakobau's flag...
I like the idea of southern cross on the blue side!
Maybe that compromise can please some MPs in both side of the parliament...
Nobody could say it's Bainimarama's flag! And nobody could say it's a colonial flag! And nobody could say there is no cross on the flag! And nobody could say there is a cross on the flag! And nobody could say it's not the real Fijian flag!
Why should we use the 1970 flag (a variant of our colonial flag) over Cakobau's flag?
Brillant!
Interesting, indeed.
The idea of changing the flag was contemplated before, as we can read on wikipedia :
"It has remained unchanged since Fiji was declared a republic in 1987, despite calls from some politicians (such as Opposition Senator Atu Emberson-Bain) for changes."
It is obvious that some members of the Opposition and some nationalists would like the idea, but they would probably be unable to come with acceptable symbols.
The southern cross is a very good idea because it would force BOTH sides of the parliament to make some little compromises. Bainimarama would have to accept the idea that some sort of "cross" (even though it is actually a constellation) is acceptable. And Kepa would have to accept that the real flag of Fiji is Cakobau's flag, not the British one. I wonder why nobody out of 2000 designers thought about it!
Since it is obvious that we need a compromise if we are to move forward, then I support the idea! Let's remember Cakobau's legacy and let's put a symbol of hope in the South Pacific!
I think that 4 white stars like New Zealand (without the red) is the best. Standard five-pointed stars for me. After all we have 4 divisions in Fiji, that makes sense.
Someone should propose that flag now...
The advantage of the southern cross on Cakobau's flag is that nobody would dare to turn it upside down and nobody would dare to make fun of the design of Fiji's very first prime minister!
Some of the 23 flags already have got a Christian flavor too : http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/symbols/5-point-star
ha...ha...
Maybe the archbishop should propose that flag.
Nobody would mess with the archbishop's flag...ha..ha
hey ...o cei ena mai tutuvi ena kuila qo....e cava eda na mai ologi kina ni da sa na mate?e na kauti keda tani mai na ca se vakabulai keda mai nai valavala ca sa tu rawa tu?e warai e veivakalialiai jiko....cakava toka na veisau ni kuila dua tale na ka e caka lo jiko..!!!yadra VITI!!!
@7:57 au taleitaka na kuila qo.
As someone said before, CHANGING the flag is in itself a symbol suggesting that the country is CHANGING to a new state. There is no need for adding those weird triangles.
If we prefer to honor our past and our ancestors by flying a variant of Cakobau's flag, what's wrong with that?
I prefer Cakobau's flag to our colonial flag anytime. Removing his crown means that the time of monarchy is over and adding the southern cross means that we are a republic of the south pacific like New Zealand. The southern cross would be on the right, which actually means that we are moving forward. That should be enough to please those obsessed by the idea of "moving forward"... and those who can't live without a cross... without hurting those obsessed by the secular state!
Overall, that's probably the most intelligent thing we have heard in a long while about this flag issue! I would vote for that flag anytime over any of the 23 proposed designs.
For those contemplating the CROSS to be our flag design, think otherwise. The right place for the cross is in the hearts of men and his house of worship. Jesus would want it this way too..Not to represent this nation, ever. I'm a Christian and I don't want the cross to represent a country already . riddled with corruption, murder, filth and evil.
History had told us of the atrocities committed, violence, rape, slaying , pillaging of the land by an army with a cross on their flag, the Christian crusades. Their invasion was to convert non Christians to Christianity but it turned out to be a conquest.The result was the most horrendous slain of men, women and children , ever, the taking of the land, the power it exert upon the people, wealth amassed by the invading armies all in the name of Christianity. The army was headed then by the Pope had also featured King Richard the lion heart of England Everyone knows King Richard riding a black stallion holding a white flag with a red cross. Everyone knew he was great and beloved by his subjects. But not everyone knew he was a murderer..he was a crusade.
I will Not vote for the beloved Cross to be on our Flag.
@9:36 AM The Southern Cross is a constellation, not a Christian cross. Those extremist Christians will see a cross in it and those more balanced like you won't. Everybody should be happy.
By the way, it's not because some extremist people have used religious symbols that those religious symbols become worthless. Nazi used a hindu symbol on their flag... and you can still see the swastika in Fiji and India!
Of course all governments end up doing evil things. Our flag, as a symbol, is supposed to fly over all governments and over everybody. A good flag should inspire us to become better. England still has the red cross on a white background like during the crusades, yet the country has grown up a lot since the dark ages!
Otherwise I suggest Cakobau's flag without the crown, that's it.
Could we not have a flag with Pope's, Mohammeds, hanuman,s and Tomasi's arses on a blue background as our flag? (Sorry I forgot the jews.) That should keep every one, except the atheists, happy. Only asking.
@9.49 I agree but the southern cross to most, maybe all, is constellation but to others is astral . It is a group of stars formed in the atmosphere which is now a medium of worship for clairvoyants.
I hope the design we want to put on our flag isn't another object of worship.
10.51...you're so pathetic!
If you don't have anything good to share, just shut the f...up.
Heard from reliable sources that Vili Rakoro, aka Cavuka Vutusona, has been hospitalised with an infected anus. Disgusting piece of shit!!!
@10:54 AM quit drugs now.
If it's good for NZ and Australia, there is no reason why it would be wrong for Fiji.
@10:51AM
Arses of Pope's, Mohammeds, Hanuman, Tomasi, Jews and Atheists.
6 Arses represented by 6 stars on a blue background.
Voila ! You got it.
If there is only 2 Stars then I know its 2 ARSES ie Bai & Kai.
If Moon Crescent = Islam
The vertical bands on Cakobau's flag could stand for a nation standing on its own (end of colonialism).
The removal of the coats of arms for the end of monarchy and tribalism (republic of Fiji).
Blue and white for our respect of Cakobau's choice (iTaukei traditions and customs).
The southern cross on the right for our place in the Pacific family and Fiji moving forward.
The 4 stars for our 4 divisions.
Simple is beautiful. Forget about all the weird colors. Stick to what we consider "Fijian".
A great flag for a great country!
Blue and white also for the two main ethnic groups living in peace and the blue sky for hope of a better future!
12.22..what are the 4 divisions? Name them
11.50, come on man..M not drug addict
but factual. Why towing from NZ and Aust when we can create our own. Cakobau flag is ok, why bringing in the southern cross star. Let me reiterate- the constelation star is a medium of worship for the clairvoyants. Clairvoyants are witches( meke vula kei na kalokalo- another term..dau vakadraudrau) Didn't they call upon these to summon the spirits . The term is astral projection or astrology.
Let's get away from the idea of having the southern cross on our flag.
Yes bring in Cakobaus flag without a crown and involve the Fiji Museums expertise in this field. They have been left out totally by this regime .
From the lyrics of "we are Fiji" :
"now is the time for all to see that we can live in harmony
from now on we'll walk together
we are fiji
lets put our differences behind us
we can do it if we try"
STANDING SIDE BY SIDE. Sounds like Cakobau foresaw what Fiji would become...
I love Cakobau's flag concept. The colors are just right and peaceful.
Let's stand by his flag, remove the coats of arms and add the southern cross. GREAT!!!
@1:11 PNG has a bad flag too then? Too many crazy people in Fiji... the southern cross in the "atmosphere"? o iko lialia?
Looking through the window... one half of the sky is white, the other one is Cakobau's blue. Beautiful!
Cakobau's flag has blue on the right. It could mean good weather following a cloudy sky?
Maybe that's enough?
Look at Indonesia, Ukraine or Poland flags... it doesn't need to be complicated!!!
What matters is SYMBOLISM. Cakobau's flag has a lot of it hidden inside...
CAKOBAU ROCKS!!!
12.22.,12.25,.1.23 the same blogger.. what are the 4 divisions?
12.22,12.25,1 23, and 1.45..the same person now silent...what are the 4 divisions???
Pythagoras said...
4 ÷ 2 = ?
10 ÷ 5 = ?
These are the four divisions, and Bainimarama couldn't solve it.
No stars. No nothing. Blue and white.
NEXT TO GO TO JAIL are THE SCAMMERS Bainimarama and Kaiyum
$3m road scam: 3 jailed, Liwaiono gets suspended sentence
By TALEBULA KATE
Update: 1:10PM THREE of the men convicted for the $3 million road scam received prison sentences ranging from four to eight years by the High Court in Suva this morning.
The fourth convicted person, Aisea Liwaiono was handed a suspended sentence by Justice Paul Madigan.
Justice Madigan sentenced businessman Firoz Jan Mohammed to eight years imprisonment and former civil servants Iliesa Turagacati and Navitalai Tamanitoakula received six years and fours years respectively.
Juab Dean said...
Firoz Jan Mohammed has been framed and jailed by SODELPA and Qarase supporters.
To the silent blogger. .you are so upsetting. Come back and answer the single question posted. .what are the 4 divisions in Fiji that your southern star represents. .
Come on man, finish what you start. Luveni yali!
I don't want any pagan representation on our flag. I don't want any meaning off the hoot to fool the people with.
Vanish in oblivion!! because your brain is pissed.
obviously you are not living in Fiji.
Our 4 divisions are:
-North Indians
-South Indians
- Kai Yanuyanu
- Real Kai Viti
The North and South divisions have merged together over the years.
Same thing with the Kai Yanuyanu and Real Kai Viti.
@3:07 drugs not good for your little brain.
None of the stars represent a division.
Just like blue and white do not represent a particular race.
It's call symbolism.
as for yourself, you are plain dumb.
O na tini evei? St-Giles!
3.14..I asked the question based on the posts. The posts said 4 stars represent 4 divisions, it didn't say ' symbolism'
Idiot! Go get your medication.
@3:36 PM You are just plain dumb... PLAIN DUMB! LIALIA SARA GA!
"It didn't say 'symbolism' " ha..ha..unbelievable... you realize your stupidity and then you dare saying idiot? You will make us laugh for some time...
A little question for you : which one of the 50 stars on the American flag is California?
You can meditate on that.
3.09 well well.. who created this 4 division? and where the hell in Fiji it is written?
By the way are you I taukei?
Your 4 division is segregating the I taukei( kai yanuyanu and real kai viti ) .
I'm confused whether your brain is at work here or Marijuana. .
Your third division by name means the kai yanuyanu do not belong with the 4th division because they are not Real Kai Viti., huh!! Boy this is inciteful You can start a civil unrest.
listen up Fiji! this is what's going on in secret.
Forget about the southern cross on our flag.
@3:35 PM I am kai loma making fun of dumb people like YOU!
Who created this 4 division? Ask your guru. You look very much into spiritism...
I think it is Vili who likes talking about the kai Yanuyanu and since I know you miss him, I thought your dumb brain would like it as a dumb answer. So many civil unrests have started in Coup 4.5... poor crying baby.
yes Fiji listen! this is the level of stupidity we want to get rid of in Fiji!!!
By the way California where I live usually is star number 33.
Need to commission a new artist or focus group to come up with another set of options. The current ones are ORDINARY.
We should borrow the SODELPA symbol from the party and use it for our national flag. The symbol is masi type design and should be coloured very deep navy blue with turquoise blue as background. If wer'e to add the Cakobau flag insignia, then we can colour it white, and without the coat of arms.
FFP can force SODELPA to give up their symbol by just voting for it in parliament; they have the numbers. But I wonder why FFP had to borrow the current fiji flag for their symbol. They could have easily borrowed one of the 23 proposed designs that have been advertised.
In Fiji, we are not allowed to put on our flag things like boats, shells, stars, triangles, coconut trees, crosses, crescents, suns, lions and what else? Oh yes, bananas and Union Jacks.
We are indeed a unique nation. That's why Cakobau's background will do with me.
The only problem I see is that he won't be there to raise the flag on Fiji Day.
Kuila said...
A plain flag without any symbols suits Fiji...at least we can easily change our flag in the next coup
The Kai Lomas should not be permitted to voice their opinion on our flag...After all they are the products of the Union Jack which is about to be made a museum piece.
@6:45 PM Some Kai Lomas not product of the Union Jack!!!
“To kill Americans and their allies, civilians, and military is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it.”
– Osama bin Laden, Feb. 23, 1998
@4.18pm..well said!
Thank you very much bro for straightening up the idiot @3.51.
Maybe also write him a new med prescription. What he is on now(grass) is pissing his brain. Dementia is prevalent and possibly write a referral note for him to give his physician to be transferred to the local memory facility- St Giles.
The next time you bow down to kiss the floor make sure that you bow low as far as you can so that your arse sticks upright in mid air and your mouth reaches your balls.
And when you do, SUCK your balls.
- Osama bin Sucker, June 24,2015
@3:11 AM you're welcome.
We still live in a country where most people are afraid of "ghosts" at night (just like little children) and where people can get murdered because some idiots think they are practicing witchcraft... WE ARE IN 2015!!! There was one case in the newspaper last year. One Indian guy got murdered because he used to "offer" the first bilo to some invisible ghost. MIDDLE AGE!!! I was shocked that NOBODY replied anything in the Letters to the Editor (as I now live half the time in the US because no $$$ in Fiji, I may have missed them... I don't read the papers "religiously" but the lack of interest from writers afterwards told something about us...). It shows clearly that a lot of people in our country are not quite sane...St-Giles is way too small and dilapidated. Look at all the nonsense that guy said in only a few lines!!! What can you reply to that? I thought he was joking in the beginning... but I was wrong!!!! meke vula kei na kalokalo @1:11PM? For the non-Fijians here, it means "dance of the moon and the star", a meke that some of our ancestors did in the stone age... like probably in 99.9% human civilizations at some point! Human foolishness, yeah.
You wont hear me saying that too often, but one good thing about Bainimarama is that he is a game changer in a country where the mindset is locked in STONE AGE. The reasons behind the coup are far from being noble (they are personal issues), but as an unexpected consequence of his coup we see things that we would never have seen otherwise... things that will have a lasting impact probably.
At least Cakobau went from Stone Age to kind-of-modern era in less than a few decades. That's why his flag is great actually.
The best we can do is probably just to give a nice meaning to his flag. At least the vertical bands can mean a lot of nice things like "standing for independence", "moving from clouds to blue sky" , "2 cultures living side by side" and so on. That's what a flag is supposed to be. Simple, but meaningful.
"Old is Gold" is what Pita Waqavono says about the colonial flag.
"Older is Better" is what I say.
Cakobau's flag minus the crown is wonderful. It says exactly what Bainimarama wants to say (moving forward from monarchy and standing united as an independant country) and it can't be turned upside down.
Plus we can see that flag for FREE in the sky everyday! We will save a lot of money.
All that time our flag was right there under our eyes and no one could see it...
Blessing grant oh God of nations on the isles of Fiji
As we stand united under noble banner blue [OUR BLUE SKY AFTER THE CLOUDS ARE GONE IS OUR BANNER BLUE]
And we honour and defend the cause of freedom ever
Onward march together [THE TWO VERTICAL RECTANGLES OF CAKOBAU'S MARCHING TOGETHER]
For Fiji, ever Fiji, let our voices ring with pride
For Fiji, ever Fiji, her name hail far and wide [SKY IS THE LIMIT]
A land of freedom, hope and glory, to endure what ever befall
May God bless Fiji
Forever more!
Blessing grant, oh God of nations, on the isles of Fiji
Shores of golden sand and sunshine, happiness and song [BORDER BETWEEN A WHITE SANDY BEACH AND A BLUE LAGOON, FUN IN THE SUN]
Stand united, we of Fiji, fame and glory ever [TWO VERTICAL RECTANGLES TOUCHING]
Onward march together [FROM WHITE CLOUDS TO BLUE SKY]
God bless Fiji.
Cakobau's flag background matches our national anthem much better than the colonial flag!!!
Vinaka vakalevu Ratu Cakobau, may your name be written on the plaque, may your spirit raise our new flag in October.
I propose Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi as the official winner since he is from Bau and is a real gentleman! Come back from Nauru Sir!
Y not. They are part of the I taukei and has full privileges to anything here in Fiji. They are our vasu and they have great minds too!
Ratu Joni is the most honorable man in Fiji.
He didn't support the coup, he never talks badly.
He is pragmatic.
When he used to write letters to the editor, we never used his title Ratu.
A great man indeed. Respected by everybody, iTaukei, Indians, Europeans, SODELPA, FF.
Let's look at history : the 1970 flag was a simple change of color from the colonial flag.
Our new flag could be a simple removal of the symbol of monarchy (crown).
What makes a great flag is not that much the colors like some people seem to think.
It's the MANA of the SYMBOLS.
Take the Indonesian flag for example. If you don't know the history of Indonesia, you might think it's a boring flag. But if you know that the legend says that the people of Indonesia teared up the blue of the flag of the Netherlands to get rid of the "blue blood" of their colonial power, then suddenly it STRIKES to the heart! That's a great flag for that very reason. It strikes.
We already have our great Fijian flag matching our national anthem!!!
Wake up people, let's move forward. We need some blue sky, we have to make compromises otherwise we will all end up at St Giles.
7.57 and 10.18.
I totally support your ideas. Its worthy. Thank you
I felt a sense of pride when I read and sing silently our national anthem. My heart sank with every lyric reminding me of our own survival and growth over the years since 1970 . The creator and designer of our current flag must never be forgotten. Her design is the symbol of Fiji the world had ever known had also reminded visitors and foreign nationals that Fiji is the way the world should be.
We have on our very nose what we are looking for to display on our flag. The lyrics on our national anthem unlocks the design.....Let us zero in on- The Flag of Rt Cakobau.
Bainimarama is an idiot
What the fark is his problem.
When he looks at the Union Jack, does he pee in his pants or why the fark does he not like it?
The British did not enslave us like the Americans enslaved Black people.
So what the fark is Bainimarama's problem.
The Indians in India had to fight the British so of course they have every right to hate the Colonial Flag.
Whereas for us Fijians, the British helped us ALL THE WAY. They helped us when the Americans tried to con us in 1800. They built great Infrastructure, Government and Judiciary for us.
Then they graciously gave us Independence when we asked for it.
WE DID NOT HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT YOU FARKING ARSEHOLES.
SO WHY CHANGE THE FARKING FLAG.
BAINIMARAMA IS AN IDIOT.
We will burn his farking flag , whatever it may be.
IF HE HATES THE BRITISH THEN HE SHOULD FARK OFF BACK TO HIS VILLAGE AND GO CRY WITH MAGGOT KAIYUM OVER THERE.
@2:10 British took Fiji because some australian interests already in Fiji explained to the British how to make good money... Yes the British did many great things, but it also came to a cost to a lot of people... ask the Indentured Indians and Solomoners and ni-Vanuatu... and ask iTaukeis who were kept aside of development in their villages... SUGAR=$$$$$ Read your history again. There are always two sides to a coin...
I don't understand why you say :"SO WHY CHANGE THE FARKING FLAG". Why do you insult the very flag you pretend to love?
The real flag of Fiji is Cakobau's. It is only appropriate to give him credit now, he is the one who actually ceded Fiji for a certain period of time so that iTaukeis could catch up with the rest of the world. Now we are in the 21st century... but still Cakobau's vision is right there on his flag. I respect the fact that a man who was originally a terrible person changed and became such a smart man. His intelligence is displayed right there on his flag. It is the story of his life, of the lifes of iTaukeis, of the lifes of indentured Indians, of Fiji. His flag is Fiji's destiny. Nothing less than that. I hope someone will propose this amazing and lovely design. Simple and STRIKING!!!
All credits to the maestro of flag design!
We need to get that idea in the media now.
We need to ask Ratu Madraiwiwi what he thinks about it. He is the only man who might be able to bring back a sense of order here. Amazing coincidence that such a gentleman is a son of Bau island too! This is a call from Destiny.
I love Rt Cakobau's concept 1000000000000 times more than those 23 crazy designs together!!!
If we are to have a new flag against the will of most people, let it at least be a flag that inspires us all.
If a man like Rt Cakobau managed to change so much in so little time, how come it takes us so long to get under the blue sky?
Rt Cakobau was more than a Great Fijian Leader, his very own life was a message of hope for humankind. Fiji can be the way the world should be. We can all change for the better.
BTW, I am asking Coup 4.5 to keep the focus on our flag issue UNTIL it is resolved to our satisfaction. The issue is too important to be brushed aside. I know many are getting fed up, but we have to fight for our dignity. We also ask for respect of the current flag. Only when the current flag is too damaged, then it should be changed. DON'T WASTE MONEY TO CHANGE ALL FLAGS IN ONE DAY. That's plain crazy!!! That new flag proposal can be seen in the sky pretty much everyday so no need to rush anything.
In 1970, when the British flag was lowered, it was done VERY SLOWLY to show respect. We remember that very well.
@2:08PM In order to show respect to Tessa Mackenzie, the designer of our current flag, let's ask for a period of 3 years to change all government flags progressively. A flag won't last much longer outside, exposed to wind, rain, sun, etc...
So the next time the government will need to order flags, they will just order the simplified Cakobau's version. That way, the actual cost of changing the flag will be brought down to very little. The flags should be MADE IN FIJI and the government should order only a thousand of them (say 20$ each for a good fabric) that's just 20000$ and we remove the most damaged flags first and we put the new flag only on the most important buildings to begin. Let's be smart and pragmatic.
By the way, it is much cheaper to produce a simple flag than a complex one... we might as well save money in the long run! we could actually even make our own Fiji flags at home!
Suomynona said...
Well there was no referendum done anyways as the idea for a flag change just happened without the people even consenting to it.
The current ones being shown just don't come anywhere near the old flag, better remove the Union Jack only and not the coat of arms shield.
@6:30PM You are right, but they will go ahead and the coats of arms will change too... so let's try to save whatever we can! The coats of arms are not supposed to be on the flag; and they don't fit with the national anthem.
May I point to the fact that countries like Poland and Russia have one standard version of their flag (red and white for Poland, white, blue and red for Russia) and another version with their national symbol (eagle) on top for government purposes.
We could have the same thing in Fiji. The official flag would be only white and blue (Cakobau's simplified flag) and the government standard would have the full coats of arms on it, right in the middle?
If the government wants to change the coats of arms, we could replace the shield by a vertical version of Cakobau's flag suspended to a pole. The 2 warriors would hold the pole together.
Fiji's motto is "Rerevaka na Kalou ka doka na Tui" : Fear God and honor the King/Queen.
The national anthem uses the word God 5 times.
Now let's honor the King and suggest Cakobau's simplified flag and also say that God = White (color of light) and Fiji = Blue for some of the lyrics (the meaning can change to fit every line)
[WHITE = GOD (COLOR OF LIGHT) TOUCHING (BLESSING) THE BLUE (COLOR OF THE SEA)= FIJI]
As we stand united under noble banner blue
[STANDING = VERTICAL RECTANGLE, UNITED = BLUE AND WHITE TOUCHING, NOBLE BANNER BLUE = OUR SKY, WE = iTAUKEIs AND NON-iTAUKEIs]
[BLUE SKY = FREEDOM, VERTICAL RECTANGLES = HONOR AND DEFEND]
Onward march together
[FROM WHITE TO BLUE = FROM CLOUDS TO CLEAR SKY = ONWARD, 2 VERTICAL RECTANGLES TOUCHING = MARCH TOGETHER]
[WHITE TOUCHING BLUE]
[BLUE = FIJI, RIGHT RECTANGLE = EVER (FUTURE)]
For Fiji, ever Fiji, her name hail far and wide,
[BLUE SKY = FAR AND WIDE, "SKY IS THE LIMIT"]
[VERTICAL BLUE RECTANGLE = FIJI STANDING (ENDURING WHAT EVER BEFALL)]
[THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BLUE RECTANGLE TOWARDS INFINITY]
[WHITE TOUCHING BLUE = GOD BLESSING FIJI]
Shores of golden sand and sunshine, happiness and song
[WHITE SANDY BEACH/BLUE LAGOON BORDER SEEN FROM THE SKY ON A NICE DAY= GOLDEN SAND AND SUNSHINE, FUN IN THE SUN AND SOUND OF THE WAVES = HAPPINESS AND SONG]
Stand united, we of Fiji, fame and glory ever
[VERTICAL RECTANGLES TOUCHING = STAND UNITED, WE = iTAUKEIs and NON-iTAUKEIs, GLORY EVER = RIGHT SIDE OF BLUE RECTANGLE TOWARDS INFINITY
[FROM OVERCAST (WHITE CLOUDS ON THE LEFT) TO CLEAR BLUE SKY ON THE RIGHT]
This is a perfect match! Wonderfully created and meaningful.
My mind and heart will rest in peace on this one and I'm looking forward to see this design.
@5.43 pm. Yes, for MsTeza Mckenzie's contribution to the nation- She is a Hall of Famer and I would recommend a street under her name.
@4.33 A man of principal and integrity, Rt Madraiwiwi would be happy with this design. And I beleive this flag will bring unity to the yavusa vaka turaga o Kubuna, Burebasaga and Tovata. Our beloved sons and daughters of the Indentured , the Chinese and the Asians, the Pacific Islanders, the Caucasians, the religious communities, all faiths and everyone whose home is Fiji.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I propose to declare the day Rt Cakobau converted to Christianity the Cakobau Day and make it public holiday.
Why? Because it symbolizes the greatest change a human person can possibly do : from darkness to light.
This is what we want to accomplish as a society and show it to the world!
The day would also be known as the Flag Day, a day to remember our past and think more about our actions. A day of forgiveness and hope.
the public holiday could also be right in the middle of the year if no direct religious reference is preferred, as we don't have any public holiday for almost 4 months in a row around this time of the year :(. good idea actually come to think about it!!! The flag is split 50-50 so why not split the calendar 50-50 too?
All supporting or commenting on the new flag, playing right into the hands of the dictators.
This is exactly what they want; Legitimised removal of Fiji's past by encouraging benign public debate through social media (on C4.5) at the same time introducing "year 0" reforms according to the Bhaikaiyum constitution.
I think the colour for the background should not be blue. Do away with blue all together as it is also a symbol of Fiji's painful colonial past.
The colour yellow should be used for it is the colour of the sun and very "kata-kata" What you reckon?
Let's text 1 to the Flag Committee for Cakobau's flag!
@11:13 AM No way! I don't want to be rude, but your suggestion is just weird. Sun is white, not yellow by the way...
Bainimarama wants to have HIS Fiji Flag (1) and wants to do away with the Union Jack (2).
Let's do away with the Union Jack, but have OUR FIJIAN FLAG, the simplified flag of Cakobau.
it's a 50-50 compromise, a compromise that will respect the feelings of people like yourself who may not like too much the colonial era, of people like myself who prefer simple designs and of most people on Coup 4.5 who have been fighting a long and peaceful battle for justice. Light blue is NOT the color of pur colonial past, I would say that RED is... Look at the red cross...
Also, the flag has to match with out national anthem and I think it would be really difficult to do better than @3:37 AM.
Let's start spreading the concept and lyrics on social networks.
I wonder what Pita Waqavonovono would say about it?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyawn..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz boring - more pressing issues than a stupid flag change.......Fiji Airways screwed with new CEO.... Chinese interest in our resources will cause irrepairable damage to land, seas, rivers with their pollution....water problems, electricity problems...growing poverty...increased unemployment 40,000 plus school leavers have no future...does not include exiting unemployed and those public servants leaving at ripe age of 55....growing and violent crimes....child prostitution, beggars on street...urban drift impacting on increased slum dwellers and list increases....
@11:44 AM zzzzz? I don't think a lot of people consider the forced flag change as something "boring".
All the problems you talk about are real, and we will STAND TOGETHER to fight them!
By the way, Cakobau's flag will be cheaper to produce... at least we will same some money in the long run for the flags themselves (sadly, not for the flag committee, billboards and all that crap from government...)
I wish we had that idea before!!!!
11.44. It's stale news for us. Go back to your comfort zone and yawn your brain to sleep, the fool.
@11.44
"Furthermore, complicated flags cost more to make, which often can limit how widely they are used. "
- http://www.flagorder.com/design.html
At least C4.5 can contribute to help us save money in the future... ;)
Long-term investment. Cakobau's wisdom.
Everybody who loves Fiji and has a sense of pragmatism, PLEASE LISTEN:
the simplified Cakobau's flag idea was passed to me by a friend who wants to remain anonymous by respect of Fijian tradition.
he said that ANYONE is the owner of his idea, and EVERYONE CAN SUBMIT IT!
So please, if you can look at the sky today and see that flag in your heart, in memory of Cakobau and his wisdom, please submit that flag! Please text #1
This is the flag that will fly above our constitution, a constitution that will have to change as our country will keep changing, but our flag shall fly forever FAR AND WIDE!!!!!
May God Bless Fiji forever more.... WHITE touching BLUE
Thank you 4.50 am and to your anon friend, he/she has to get prepared because, if this is approved, his /her name will go down in the history books.
And to that person 3.37am 26th June, the meanings are just too sweet Can't wait to see and know who the 2 people here.
I can only say" VINAKA SAKA VAKALEVU"
@6:05 AM my friend is waaaaaaaay too humble to stand next to the GREAT CAKOBAU, the first TUI VITI... but I can tell you he probably loves this country more than anyone else!
let's just accept that it is WE THE PEOPLE who are raising this flag on TOP OF EVERYTHING we value, including ANY CONSTITUTION (or variant of) . That's my anonymous friend's proposal, and he says it is up to the people to take ownership of their lovely symbols!!!
Cakobau must be winking at us and smiling!!!! ;) it's almost prophetic...
FOR FIJI EVER FIJI! BLUE TO INFINITY ON THE FLY!
That white/blue flag concept (God/chasing clouds) reminds of a song... "I can see clearly now, the rain has gone"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pij1VWgnpY
God has been with Fiji all along, hence the vertical line from top to bottom!
"I Can See Clearly Now"
I can see all obstacles in my way.
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind.
It's gonna be a bright (bright)
bright (bright) sunshiny day.
Oh, yes I can make it now the pain is gone.
All of the bad feelings have disappeared.
Here is that rainbow I've been praying for.
(ooh...) Look all around, there's nothing but blue skies.
Look straight ahead, there's nothing but blue skies.
It's going to be a bright (bright)
Yeah, hey, it's gonna be a bright (bright) bright (bright)
sunshiny day.
I think someone should forward this GREAT FLAG CONCEPT to the Fiji Times, Fiji Sun and Flag Committee as the people are still lost, wondering if the flag should have a stupid turtle or a ridiculous star on it...
Simplified Cakobau's flag all the way! Come on guys let's wake up! Some keyboard warrior around?
From the time C45 had posted the topic on "the flag new design" I haven't seen a majority opinion such as this coming together in support of Rt Cakobau's flag.
We have to push this across to people, maybe someone, anyone to make this happen.
This is an anti-government website... most people are against the change, we would now expect tons of negative comments... but there are none... (at least none that are clever!) Big silence. That proposal was like a knockout by Cakobau. I think, no one saw it coming. That also "speaks volumes"... I suppose that if it had been posted on a pro-government blog, it would have been a major hit!
All we need is for someone to pen a letter to the newspapers and to the flag committee (newfijiflag at gmail.com)
It can be an anonymous letter or not, since the designer "gave" his/her idea to all of us, people of Fiji. so that we can see what the general public of Fiji thinks about it. As we are Fijians, our vakamalua attitude is a problem and nobody wants to be the i liuliu, isn't? ;) We get what we deserve I suppose... vakamalua fever... or vucesa? Sunday would be a good day to pen a letter about a national anthem talking about God and Fiji.
Viti noqu Viti! Blue and white marching together.
Anonymously,
a citizen of the way the world should be
P.S. As for myself, I LOVE that design!!!
@10.50am Agree 1000 fold.
Someone in here was writing about the need for someone like Ghandi and Mandela who can lead "liuliu" and make things happen so everyone can follow. This is not only for a selective few but for the entire nation. This is not about FF or SODELPA or NFP or FLP but for the young and old- the citizens.
Sa kua mada na moce Viti.
Date: 12 September 2007 11:56:07 AM
To: timesnews@fijitimes.com.fj
Subject: Today's reply to my comment !
Mark Manning of Sydney,Australia (38 minutes ago)It matters not what anyone thinks , this regime decided years ago just exactly what it had in mind and how it would achieve it's goals . Anyone who believes otherwise , is deluding themselves ! The processes this regime have put into place , are merely a smokescreen to hide their real intent . And one can only assume that that is total dominance over all facets of Fijian society . Hasn't anyone in Fiji understood yet , that Fiji is being sold out to the Asians from under your feet , by your own countrymen ?
Indian of India (29 minutes ago)To Mar Manning of Sydney Australia-#34
These silly Fijians do not know- ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! We are controlling their Military now. We will do it slowly until we destroy all the Fijian Institutions and the their land rights. The silly Fijians including the selfish Ganilau and Bai do not know and do not bother. GENOCIDE is the MISSION. It can achieved politically.
GO INDIA GO.
Crash Stock Exchange of United States (14 minutes ago)To India and Manning
hahahaha...yeah lets start with crashing the South Pacific Exchange dominated by India and the banks! Maybe the Fijians can start thinking about the 6 billion deal now...hehehehe Take your pick!
Fijians are lousy merchants anyway because their eyes have always been to big for their stomach(traditionally) thus the need to have a corporate body(GCC new look) to curb the crooks that take advantage of the Natadola projects etc. I say Code of conduct is necessary because no chief should be above the law neither are accountants!
@ Mark You are probably right, but still our flag makes us dream I suppose. There are so many things to cry about on this Earth, can't we look into the sky and hope?
I see in Cakobau's simplified flag an opened book.
The left (past) has been erased, and the future (blue) is the new Fiji.
One day, all our bad deeds will get erased.
IT is my very firm belief that despite how hard a segment of the Fijian population fights government's decision to change the flag, the cause is already lost. This is not what many may want but it appears destined to be the case.
That there will be change is a done deal and fighting it is only an exercise in futility. Their valuable energy should be better used for selecting their choice of a new flag.
This will be more effective and make a difference to Fijians than requesting for a referendum as we all know Government has the mandate from the people to govern and thus has the final say in this matter.
The Fiji Times last Saturday carried detailed reports and opinions of Fijians suggesting that as many as 87 per cent of them preferred to vote on whether our national flag should be changed.
Tebbutt Times Poll also posed the question on what should be the process to select the new flag for Fiji. Interestingly, 65 per cent wanted a national referendum for registered voters, 20.8 per cent wanted the Government to decide, 11.2 per cent wanted the decision to be made by the parliamentarians and 1.8 per cent was not sure.
It should be noted that the Tebbutt Times Poll canvassed the opinions of 1052 randomly selected adults from all walks of life across Fiji and was conducted between June 23 and 25, 2015. Personal telephone interviewing was used with both landline and mobile phone numbers being randomly selected.
I was on facebook page of coup4.5.I noticed an article of Aaina and saw the host, that FUGLGY BTICH.I remember the way she was so rude to the members of various political parties she interviewed.
I vote for the new version of the Ratu Cakobau flag as our new flag.
Mark Manning and anon 12.44am, do you agree?
@4:32AM Interesting to note that no one seems to oppose Ratu Cakobau flag here... and this is our #1 opposition website...
Long life Cakobau!
He is like our Fijian Che, but much better!
What is it about those clowns who are wasting public money to advertise those 23 ugly flags on TV when they already have said that the list wasn't final anymore? Isn't it a recognition they have failed?
Poor taste is widespread and they think that the general public will be able to come up with something better than our real Fijian flag?
White and Blue are the colors of our flag people, never let anyone walk on your feet! Never let it happen! Never. Sega ni bau.
Tomorrow the sun will set, so that our sun at last will raise.
My opinion about the flag selection process:
1) Have a larger selection of flags with really different designs.
2) Have one web page per flag. Each page should include all the SPECIFIC infos for the flag as some flags like the simplified Cakobau's flag do require a long "explanation". You can't juge a flag just by its visual elements without knowing what's behind...
3) Allow the public to make anonymous suggestions as some people might have good ideas but are not interested to be in the spotlight. It is up to the public to choose the flag, so it doesn't matter where the concepts originate from. The more good flags we have the better. (NZ flag selection was open to anyone, including foreigners!)
Fiji flag flies high
Shalveen Chand In Port Moresby, Png
THE Team Fiji contingent raised the Fiji flag with pride as the 22 nations competing in the 15th Pacific Games got together for a flag hoisting ceremony yesterday in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea.
FASANOC president Joe Rodan said this was the last Pacific Games the noble banner blue would possibly be hoisted and the team felt they had to show off the flag we have come to call ours.
"We wanted to show the Pacific Games and its participating nations that as Fijians we are proud of our country and its flag," he said.
"This is probably the last time this flag would be hoisted at the Pacific Games, so it gives us much honour in showing the other nations, how much we love what symbolises our nation.
"It truly is an honour."
FIJI NEEDS LEADERS LIKE THIS MAN WHO IS NOT AFRAID OF THE MILITARY & ITS GUNS. STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS PEOPLE - YOU CANNOT TAKE POWER BY THE GUN, RIG AN ELECTION & BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE VOTED. YOU INTO POWER.
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Pawan Atri October 15, 2014
A 62 run innings off 78 balls cannot be considered great, but Indian vice-captain Virat Kohli may have played perhaps the most crucial knock of his career in recent times in the second ODI against the West Indies at the historic Feroz Shah Kotla in Delhi. Struggling for runs for more than seven months, the stylish batsman arrived at the crease with India in considerable pressure at 50 for 2.
Virat Kohli scored impressive 62 runs off 78 balls vs West Indies in 2nd ODI at Feroz Shah Kotla, Delhi
With Shikhar Dhawan perishing early and Ajinkya Rahane giving away his wicket because of constant tight and accurate bowling by the Carribean pacemen, Kohli, who came into bat a spot lower than his customary No.3 position had to work tremendously hard to get himself going. Initially, he appeared scratchy and mistimed the ball a couple of times before finding his rhythm much to the delight of his hometown crowd.
Once he got his eyes set, a huge score looked imminent as the runs began to flow from his willow. With a combined total of merely 109 runs in his last seven essays at the crease since his previous ODI century against Bangladesh in February at Fatullah, Kohli was determined to turn things around in his favor and his early intentions made it absolutely clear that he was quite eager to be back among the runs.
He was actually ready to do anything and everything to get back in form – he was extremely patient, extra cautious and played second fiddle to Raina during the larger part of his knock. Here, the time he spent with Little Master Sachin Tendulkar during the break after the England tour came in enormously handy. He successfully negated whatever movement the tall, fast bowlers of the opposition got from the track and also avoided the horizontal bad shots against the spinners until he felt comfortable with hitting the ball in the air.
He was watchful early on as it took him eight balls to open his account on the scoreboard. The elegant batter known for his aggressive approach went on to curb his natural instincts as he was aware of the risks at that stage of the match and hence, decided to play the role of the sheet anchor, which he played with some success as he amassed more than half of his score (34+8) with the help of ones and twos.
Though, there were a few encouraging signs too, as his signature shots – those classic flicks through the mid wicket region and the cuts in between the cover and backward point were on show as his self belief began to rise. With Suresh Raina acting as the attacker in the partnership, Kohli displayed every bit of his astuteness in pacing his knock. In fact, when the partnership between Raina and Kohli was on, WI bowlers looked a disgruntled lot and had no idea whatsoever about how to prevent the flow of runs.
Raina’s free flowing innings of 62 from 60 balls was equally responsible in easing out the pressure from the shoulders of Kohli as the right-hander bided his time in the center. By dabbing the ball gently in the mid wicket area, Virat reached his half century in 63 balls. As he raised his bat towards the crowd, a smile that had relief written all over it followed.
Just when the packed house inside the stadium started believing that there hero would treat them with a century, Kohli fell to Ravi Rampaul in his pursuit to up the run rate as he was caught in the deep by Marlon Samuels on the edge of the long off boundary.
Even if he was livid with himself after losing his wicket in such a manner, it was the right shot to play at that juncture as India had just lost Suresh Raina and Kohli had to change his role from a sheet anchor to an all out swashbuckler to let his captain MS Dhoni to get himself in. Unfortunately, things didn’t go according to plan as he got out, still it has to be said that the way he played clearly signal that Kohli is well on his way back to the big scores, the quick-fire hundreds we all have so loved to watch from his Adidas bat in recent years.
Tags: Cricket, Delhi, India, ODIs, Virat Kohli, West Indies
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Munna Bhai October 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm
Still a long way to go to cement his position in Indian team. Few more series failures and selectors would be looking for alternative. There are truck load of youngsters waiting in queue and they all have potential to be next Virat Kohli. So buckle up dude and bring your best.
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By Larisa Vilensky
High up in the northern Himalaya Mountains, the Tadzhik people of Pamir plateau, divided between Tajikistan and Afghanistan, still live a simple, centuries-old life, herding animals. Here we find a rare art, the making of colorwork crochet socks, called by the Turkish word Jourab. Larisa Vilensky provides rare insight into textile history,with her original research showing clear links between the making of these Jourabs and the ancient arts of Persian and Anatolian rugmaking.
Knitting and crocheting of colored socks is a very popular craft in the vast territory of Eurasia, spreading along the river Volga, around the Caspian Sea, and further into the Middle Eastern steppes of Turkestan and mountains and valleys of Pamir.
All this territory was once conquered by the armies of the Turkish Seljuk Empire, the boundaries of which were as far north as the steppes of Sarmatia on the Volga River near the modern city of Saratov, and as far east as the Pamir and Kazakh steppes. Built on Persian culture, the Seljuk Empire promoted carpet making in all of its territory. Azeri of Azerbaijan, Armenians and the Dagestan people in the western parts of the empire, Turkmen, Tajik and Kazakh tribes in the east, as well as the regions of the former Khwarizmi Khanate in the east (Samarkand, Bukhara, etc.) were all engaged in carpet making.
The craft of carpet making required a steady supply of threads and dyes. Cold northern steppes and high altitude plateaus had ideal dry and cool climate for growing sheep. Oasis and deserts of the south were natural environments for camel stock. Plants suitable for dyes also varied from place to place, supporting production of dyes of different colors and qualities.
Although the name of the craft was the same, each region produced carpets in different colors, using techniques native to that region. Interestingly enough, all the places where beautiful carpets were crafted also had a tradition of making colored crocheted socks. In the area of Dagestan and Azerbaijan these socks are called “jourabs”. This term for the colored socks is known as far as Punjab in the East. People of Turkey call these socks “chorabs”, which is in essence the same word.
Some sources suggest that remnants of carpet threads were used for making jourabs. In many areas the patterns used in the carpets are found in jourabs as well. When we look at the tools and techniques of making carpets we will find similarities with crochet as we know it today.
The modern jourabs are made in two very distinct crochet techniques. One technique is based on the single crochet stitch, another on crochet slip stitch. We can find the elements of this technique in carpet making, which suggests that jourabs and carpets were likely produced by the same craftsmen. It also means that the origins of modern crochet may be in carpet making and that crochet originated in the carpet making regions of Anatolia and the Middle East.
The Mongolian invasion into Russia created perfect conditions for all crafts to be blended together. The Mongols did not, however, introduce carpet making to the people of the Sarmatia and Lower Volga. Ancient carpets were found in Scythian burials in Lower Volga region of Russia and dated as far as 4th century AD. Mongols brought together the carpet makers of Sarmatia and Tatarstan, Central Asia and the Lower Urals (Bashkirs).
Over time, techniques, tools, dyes and patterns were exchanged, greatly enriching the craft. Given this interchange, it is difficult to determine which craft and which tool originated in a particular region. Knitting needles were used interchangeably with the crochet hook, using the same colored charts.
As this article is written for a crochet magazine, we are focusing on the techniques of sock making using only crochet. In many regions jourab making requires both knitting and crochet skills. Somehow, the Tajik people of the Pamir area still preserve the old style of making jourabs using crochet only.
Pamir is the system of mountains spread over the territories of Tajikistan, Kirgizia, Afghanistan and China. It is sometimes referred as the Northern part of Himalayas.
Geographic isolation of these places, caution with regard to strangers, and traditional Muslim customs made exploring these areas very difficult. Seeing this beautiful craft became almost impossible. We must thank fearless mountain climbers and tourists who are visiting these areas and not forgetting to post photos of Pamir nature, Pamir people, and their beautifully crafted jourabs. Practically all information included in this article is translated from Russian and taken from Russian websites. These incidental photos and stories, which somehow included jourabs in the thick of tourist attractions and gear, allow us to compile and bring this article to you.
Some say that the most admirable jourabs are made in the valley of Bartang river. A very unique crochet pattern is shown in first jourab from the left. The natural slant to the left of crochet in the round gives these jourabs special textural effect. The second jourabs from the left are made with the traditional Central Asian star, often found in carpets of the region. Scythian patterns can often be found in the colorful knitted socks and mittens of Russian people. The central symbol of fertility “gandunai hurshed” (swastika) was removed after WW II anywhere in the Soviet Union. The similar style can be noticed in the border patterns on three of these Bartang jourabs. The similarity of motifs prompts speculation of a common origin of knitting patterns of Northern Russia and the crochet patterns of Bartang.
The darker colored socks at right are by far the most interesting and intricate of all. The composition of these socks is comprised of the most versatile combination of carpet elements including flowers, S-sign and other geometrical shapes found in carpets of Central Asia. We can assume that these jourabs are made entirely with slip stitch. Those who are proficient users of slip stitch know that it is all but impossible to create sharp geometric shapes using slip stitch. However slip stitch is best for creating free form “fuzzy” flowery and feather-like ornaments
Similar patterns can be found in Afghani crochet. For a long time Pamir Tajik people have been traveling from Afghanistan to Tajikistan without heeding borders.
Pamir carpet and jourab crafters use symbols of nature, geometrical shapes and solar signs. Each element has its own name. For example, peacock feather is called “pari towus”; hen is “chahak”; scorpion is “kazdumak”; flame is “alowak.” Combinations of colors can vary: red, purple, yellow, green, brown, black and white. Color charts are passed from generation to generation visually without recording the process.
It was not in the tradition of the jourab makers to pass them through generations as heirlooms. They were worn and eventually worn out and discarded. The utmost treasure, passed from generation to generation of crafters, was the collection of secrets of making the beautiful socks as we know them today. Families of dyers, spinners and crocheters keep their timeless traditions of extracting natural and very strong and bright dyes in secret. The most common plants used for color dyes are henna and the bark of hazel (Córylus) trees. In earlier times crochet hooks were made from the branches of local shrubs.
The making of jourab is very similar to creating modern day top-down crocheted socks. The unfinished jourab shown below is started from the top and follows the color chart through the entire leg area. When the tube covering the leg is of the right length (usually the length from knee to ankle), the jourab maker starts forming the gusset area. The flexibility of crochet as compared to knitting allows for creating the gusset in various ways.
It is very likely that the crocheter used the following technique to finish the gusset area. The jourab maker creates a “diameter chain”, which completely crosses the bottom of the leg tube. It divides the opening into two halves. One half is designated for the heel, the other for the foot area. The crocheter first works the foot area in rounds, creating a cone of sufficient length to fit the gusset. Then she works the second half in similar fashion, creating a cone for the heel by making symmetrical decreases in the round.
Traditionally, the foot is finished with natural off-white color for the entire foot, or with colored stripes. In jourab crochet there are no set rules of how to insert the hook into the stitch. Some prefer front loop, others back loop, and some may work into both. The final size of jourabs is quite large and resembles the size of boots.
These bright colored patterns in geometrical figures seem to just jump from the carpet and onto these jourabs. The only way to buy them is to visit the area of the river Rushan. Make sure you are properly equipped for survival, because these places are considered the most difficult for travelling, even for experienced mountaineers.
We include at bottom an example of a commercial version of Pamir jourabs which resembles a traditional Russian sock. The heel is square shaped. The entire sock is made using slip stitch. The sock is shorter and resembles a boot sock, which is good for hiking. These crochet socks are widely available in many local tourist shops and online stores which sell craft items.
Can you color these jourabs using your imagination? They are knit and come from Badahshan in Tajikistan. Similar to all jourabs, they have braided threads which are used to wrap and tie the sock around the leg. Can you guess why these ones are knitted? Knitted patterns have straight stitches whereas crochet patterns make stitches slant to the left.
The article began with the statement that crafters interchanged both techniques utilizing the same color charts. It seems that the word “loop”, once originated from carpet making, migrated into both crochet and knitting making it very difficult to separate the crafts from one another.
Article written for the interview with Mavluda Raxmatova for BBC «Ð¢Ð°Ð¹Ð½Ñ‹ ПамирÑких Джурабов» http://www.asiaplus.tj/articles/201/4325.html
Mountain climber sites http://www.skitalets.ru/; http://tour.dsp.kz/pamir2004/diary3.html
Craft Russian sites: http://av-trik1.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_04.html
Technique of Dagestan carpets:http://www.carpets.dgu.ru
History of Carpet making by Fomenko and Nosovskij
Russian carpet site: Carpets.dgu.ru
History of carpet making: http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/tur_capit.html
Special thanks to my husband, who patiently edited my “uncombed thoughts” and special thanks to Dora for inspiring me to do this research
E23D35C6-B9AB-4697-8724-4381752B8543 [at] earthlink [dot] net”>
Larisa Vilensky acquired her knit and crochet skills in Russia in her family. At age of 25 she moved to Canada and 10 years later became very active in all aspects of knitting and crocheting craft. Studying history through textile became the most interesting venue in all activities. In 2008 she wrote a book “The Book of Russian Knitting” where she shared her skills in knitting and crochet with readers. Currently she is working on her next book “The Book of Russian Crochet” in which she is going to talk about all aspects of crochet developed in Russia.
Learn more about “The Book of Russian Knitting” here http://www.headwaterwool.com/BookDetail.aspx?row_num=4
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"We must be ready to dare all for our country. For history does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. We must acquire proficiency in defense and display stamina in purpose." - President Eisenhower, First Inaugural Address
PC Got Rockets
Sunday Ship History
Sunday Ship History - delayed by technical issues.
Keep an eye on this spot.
Dot explained here.
Posted by Mark Tempest at 5/31/2009 11:29:00 PM No comments: Links to this post
Possible Pirate Attack in the Red Sea
I have received an early report of an RPG and machine gun attack on a merchant ship in the Red Sea, north of the Bab El Mandeb chokepoint, after the ship dropped its escort vessels. The attack reportedly took place about 8-9 hours ago.
The red "ship" symbol marks the reported attack.
As far as I know, this is the first reported attack by possible pirates in this area.
(UPDATE: Correction - 3rd in area within 3 months -see UPDATE 4 below)
However, with monsoon weather possibly affecting the Gulf of Aden and waters off the east coast of Somalia, this might be another pirate adaptation.
UPDATE: Report from Nick of Gulf of Aden Group Transits (GOAGT):
Just a heads up that ...[ship] was attacked this morning with RPG & automatic fire – the (pending)... [under] escort from Oman Border to the start of the supposed safe area of red sea at Bab El Mandeb – however this attack happened 50 miles North, after the (pending) had been released from the Navy escort.
Vessel has sustained damage to bridge and accommodation block but vessel conducted evasive manouevres and ... contacted Gulf of Aden Group Transits ...[contacted] Yemen Navy resulted in immediate deployment of multiple military vessels and helicopters searching for the Skiff with the 7 pirates onboard.
I owe a debt of gratitude to the Yemen Navy for immediately deploying all available assets in region from Aden, Hodeidah & Mokha
Photo of (pendng) under escort by Yemeni Navy provided by Gulf of Aden Group Transits, used by permission, all rights reserved.
Sounds like a harrowing time for the attacked ship, with good responses by all of the counter pirate forces including GOAGT which was providing guidance to the vessel, the Yemenis and the crew of the (pending)
UPDATE2: You might recall that (pending) was released by Somali pirates on (pending).
UPDATE3: A request to withdraw ship name- I have replaced reported name with (pending) - maintaining "possible" attack status pending further clarification and confirmation. Sorry for any inconvenience.
UPDATE4: IMB reports incident here. IMB's Live Piracy Map correctly shows two prior incidents in area -both occurring in March 2009. In addition, three other incidents in mouth of Bab El Mandeb since February 2009.
UPDATE5: Modified IMB 2009 Piracy Map for Red Sea Area (31 May alleged attack circled in red) showing dates of other attacks in Red Sea and Bab El Mandeb vicinity:
UPDATE6: A clarification- Fairplay reports earlier Red Sea attacks may not have involved weapons firing at vessels.
Labels: Pirates, Red Sea
The Merry Minuet
Of course, while the world gets busy, I'm swamped and not able to post except to offer up this reminder that the more things change, the more they remain the same. I first heard this song on a 1960 or so Kingston Trio record:
The Merry Minuet by Sheldon Harnick
They're rioting in Africa. They're starving in Spain. There's hurricanes in Florida, and Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch. And I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud, for man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day, someone will set the spark off... and we will all be blown away.
They're rioting in Africa. There's strife in Iran. What nature doesn't do to us... will be done by our fellow man.
North Korea Threatens
North Korea, pounding the war drum, threatens the South Koreans and the United States, prompting an increased alert level:
One day after North Korea warned of a possible attack against the South, the United States and South Korea ordered their forces here to their highest alert for three years, increasing surveillance flights and satellite reconnaissance to counter what officials termed a “grave threat.”
North Korea, reiterating its assertion made in January that all agreements with South Korea are dead, including the maritime "northern limit line" separating the DPRK (North Korea) waters from the ROK (South Korea) waters. Without an agreed line, international law would recognize a 12 mile limit for the territorial waters. a problem with that limit are the numerous islands that dot the coast of the Korean peninsula, each island extending the 12 mile base line.
Some of the recent threatening North Korean language involves the U.S. threat to lead a group of navies in boarding and searching all North Korean vessels leaving the DPRK:
North Korea intensified its threats against South Korea and the United States on Wednesday with warnings of a “powerful military strike” if any North Korean ships were stopped or searched as part of an American-led operation to intercept vessels suspected of carrying unconventional weapons.
Diplomatic efforts are underway at the UN to bolster existing snactions:
Diplomats said American and Japanese officials were drafting a Security Council resolution that would concentrate on five or six ways to flesh out existing sanctions against North Korea that had never been enforced. Although China supports the idea of sanctions, it wants to work slowly and to bolster measures first passed in 2006 rather than creating new ones, they said.
Technically a state of war currently exists between the ROK, its allies and the DPRK. An extended armistice has been in place for 55 years, but the unilateral renunciation by one side to the agreement ought to have some meaning - in this case, that the war is back on and that DPRK ships are fair game for seizure, boarding and attack by ROK and UN forces.
According to this the North Koreans say the "truce" is over:
South Korea and the United States raised the military alert level for the peninsula on Thursday after the communist North warned the truce ending the Korean War was dead and it was ready to attack.
With the DPRK asserting that the truce is dead, there would seem to be no limits to any allied activity regarding DPRK shipping. The question being who will send ships to enforce the Proliferation Security Agreement, previous "deals" with the DPRK and war at sea.
UPDATE: More on the PSI and the DPRK from here:
South Korea, still divided from the North by a heavily fortified border, had responded to the nuclear test by joining the Proliferation Security Initiative, a U.S.-led movement to stop ships from transporting banned nuclear goods.
Pyongyang lashed out at both the U.S. and South Korea, calling Seoul's move to join the PSI tantamount to a declaration of war and a violation of the truce keeping the peace between the two Koreas.
"Full participation in the PSI by a side on the Korean Peninsula where the state of military confrontation is growing acute and there is constant danger of military conflict itself means igniting a war," North Korea's Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea said in a statement carried on state media.
The regime warned that it would "deal a decisive and merciless retaliatory blow" to anyone trying to inspect its vessels.
North Korea's army said it would be "illogical" to honor the 1953 armistice between the two Koreas, given the violations by the U.S. and South Korea, and said it could no longer promise the safety of U.S. and South Korean warships and civilian vessels in the waters near the maritime border.
North Korea, as is its wont, blames the U.S.:
An official newspaper of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) on Tuesday urged the United States to apologize for its infringement on the DRPK's autonomy.
Rodong Simun said the Barack Obama administration was taking a both hard and placatory line toward the DPRK. They held an "olive branch" in one hand and an "arrow" in another hand, but the emphasis of the tactic was "arrow." The so-called "talks" alleged by the United States were only favorable conditions that Washington created for shooting the "arrow."
It said the Obama administration responded to the DPRK's satellite launch by imposing sanctions, totally destroying the mood of the "talks." The Obama administration did not admit his fault, but smeared the DPRK as a tyranny or rogue nation.
No matter what others say, the DPRK would do things in its own way, especially regarding the Korean Peninsula's nuclear issue and the DPRK-U.S. relationship, the newspaper noted.
If it were me, I'd "apologize" by moving a couple of more carriers toward the area and a bevy of smaller ships for interdiction purposes.
The North Koreans have now proven that they can make a viable nuclear weapon. They are believed to have enough fissile material to make several weapons, a couple of years ago, the estimate was 12 weapons.
In addition, the DPRK is believed to have large stocks of chemical weapons. See here:
... in 1997, the U.S. State Department, in response to questions posed by U.S. Senator Thad Cochran, stated that North Korea was, in fact, "believed to have a sizable stockpile of chemical weapons." The MND has been more specific. It claimed in 2003 that North Korea had produced "over ten kinds of lethal chemicals that include nerve, blister, and blood agents" and had a stockpile of "some 2,500 to 5,000 tons of these chemical agents."
UPDATE: Wikipedia reports on the forward deployed warhships of the U.S. Navy:
U.S. Fleet Activities Yokosuka, Japan
* USS George Washington (CVN-73)
* USS Blue Ridge (LCC-19)
* USS Cowpens (CG-63)
* USS Shiloh (CG-67)
* USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG-54)
* USS John S. McCain (DDG-56)
* USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62)
* USS Stethem (DDG-63)
* USS Lassen (DDG-82)
* USS McCampbell (DDG-85)
* USS Mustin (DDG-89)
U.S. Fleet Activities Sasebo, Japan
* USS Essex (LHD-2)
* USS Denver (LPD-9)
* USS Harpers Ferry (LSD-49)
* USS Tortuga (LSD-46)
* USS Guardian (MCM-5)
* USS Patriot (MCM-7)
Apra Harbor, Guam
* USS Frank Cable (AS-40)
* USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN-705)
* USS Houston (SSN-713)
* USS Buffalo (SSN-715)
The U.S. Pacific Air Forces include about 375 air craft located in South Korea, Japan, Guam and Alaska. In addition to George Washington, the Navy lists two other carriers as operating in the Pacific. Japan has a substantial Maritime Self Defense Force (100 ships), as does South Korea (150 ships). Good source of Asian navy info: Maritime Asia.
Posted by Mark Tempest at 5/28/2009 07:47:00 AM No comments: Links to this post
Labels: North Korea
Wednesday Reading
Fred Fry's Maritime Monday 163 with a lot of links and some great pictures of the nuclear powered cargo ship Savannah.
"Yemeni Fishing Ship Blows Up in Sudanese Waters"
Here's an interesting situation from Jane over at Armies of Liberation: Yemeni Fishing Ship Blows Up in Sudanese Waters. The background is that a Yemeni newspaper asserts that a Yemeni fishing boat was destroyed by outside forces, as set out here:
Two Yemeni fishermen were killed and one was injured while the fate of a fourth one is still unknown after their boat came under an aggressive assault by one of the international naval ships patrolling the Red Sea near Sudan on Tuesday.
A source at the Coast Guard said Abdu Marwani and Muhammad Naj'e were killed immediately after their boat was totally destroyed by a missile which some suspect was an air strike.
Sources at Yemen's navy said it probably came from sea.
While the third fisherman made it to Sudanese coast and is now in critical condition.
The fishermen came from the Midy area, Hajjah before their boat was hit near Sudan's waters.
A coordinated investigation by Yemen and Sudan is underway to explore reasons for the attack.
Meanwhile, director of the Midy district Abdul Majeed Al-Himyari dismissed reports a Yemeni boat was attacked in Yemen's territorial waters, saying the incident took place while the boat was in Sudan's territorial waters.
He told the media the survivor is being investigated by Sudan.
Tuesday's attack comes in a series of attacks against Yemeni fishing boats by international forces patrolling the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean.
Off Sudan?
Remember the alleged destruction of an alleged Iranian arms ship off Sudan? See here.
Jane notes there is a lively trade in smuggling diesel fuel from Yemen to Sudan and others have noted that some Yemenis have been arms merchants (see here and here).
Jane correctly points out that maintaining situational awareness is vital throughout the region:
The much bigger issue is the exploding fishing boat. Its unclear that any missile hit it at this point, its could have been laden with explosives and blew up accidentally. Its important for the international fleet to remain vigilant about the danger of maritime terror attacks in the Gulf of Aden.
The rules of engagement should not allow hapless lost Yemeni fishermen to approach military vessels...
A statement from al Qaeda Central called for naval jihad (April 2008?), the October one by a Yemeni forecast a major event around Somalia. The links between AQAP in Yemen and al Shabab go back to the ICU and before. Its a predictable scenario that AQAP would attempt to outdo the Cole bombing when the waters are full of such tempting targets...
It was not in Somali waters that the Cole was attacked, nor the oil tanker Limburg.
About a year ago, though, al Qaeda was yapping about Chokepoint Terrorism:
Finally, the article stresses that the seas off the coast of Yemen, namely the Gulf of Aden, the Bab Al-Mandeb strait and the Red Sea are of supreme strategic importance in the campaign to expel the enemy from key locations. If the enemy loses these key areas, it explains, "he will not be able to defend himself on land and [to protect] his naval bases from the mujahideens' attack."
Keep a sea eye open on this.
Labels: Red Sea, Sea Lines of Communication, Sudan, Yemen
In the Mail: Terror on the Sea: True Tales of Modern Day Pirates
Just got Daniel Sekulich's new book in the mail Terror on the Sea: True Tales of Modern Day Pirates and will have a report soon.
Daniel's regular website is here.
Labels: Pirates
Somali Pirates: Slowdown
First, a pirate who sees a slowdown Somali pirate fears good times maybe finished:
He and his colleagues have hijacked nearly 30 vessels this year, meaning 2009 is on course to be even worse than last year, when pirates from the Horn of Africa nation seized 42 ships.
But the crime wave has prompted a hurried deployment in the region by foreign navies, thwarting several attacks -- and now the weather is turning too, making the seas rougher and the pirates' prey harder to hunt.
"My biggest fear is that the piracy business will have to stop. The weather will be terrible in the coming days and the warships have increased in number," Said told Reuters in Eyl.
But the last few weeks have not been so successful. He knows he was lucky to get off scot-free after being captured once.
"I recently went to sea ... but all of my last three attempts have been in vain. I was even caught by a Portuguese warship, but fortunately they released me and my friends."
Just in time for bad weather, another 200 pirates claim to have given up piracy, as set out here:
Around 200 Somali pirates are reported to have renounced piracy at a meeting in northern Somalia.
Members of the group met local leaders and Somali expatriates in Eyl, in the autonomous region of Puntland, and promised to halt their activities.
Pirate representative Abshir Abdullah told the BBC he urged other groups to free ships in return for amnesty.
I don't see amnesty forthcoming, unless the pirates surrender themselves along with the captured ships. And I suspect the pirate plan does not include the "former pirates" remaining in Somalia. The south of France, however, is nice...
Speaking of weather, the monsoon (see here) seems to be kicking up:
Higher winds, heavier seas - not much for a pirate in a small open boat to enjoy.
Expect, in addition to further promises of pirate reform, a couple of months of slowed pirate activity.
Iran has chosen this perod to send 6 (?) warships to the area to participate in international anti-pirate measures, as set out here:
Navy Commander Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari announced on Monday that Iran has sent 6 warships and logistic vessels to the Gulf of Aden and the surrounding international waters.
Sayyari, who made the remarks while visiting the development projects and installations of the Iranian Navy here in Tehran, described the measure as "unprecedented in the history of the Iranian Navy", and added, "This important move indicates the country's high military capability in confronting any kind of foreign threat along the coasts of the country."
Might be a slow deployment for the Iranians, since the pirates seem to be standing down for weather. Not that the effort isn't appreciated.
UPDATE: Having staked out a position for a slowdown, I now report two unsuccessful attacks in the Gulf of Aden, which I have tried to depict on the image nearby:
Atttack 1: At 0130 UTC a merchant vessel was under attack by 2 skiffs in position 1305N 04858E.
The ship is safe now.
Attack 2: At 242120Z a merchant vessel was under attack by pirates in position 13 11N 049 18E.
The vessel is safe now
And a report of a Swedish warship capturing some suspected pirates, loaded with normal fishing equipment, here:
Early this morning suspected pirates attacked a Greek Bulk Carrier in the Gulf of Aden. The pirates fired upon the ship with small arms and RPG (Rocket Propelled Grenade). A distress call was picked up by the EU NAVFOR Swedish warship HMS MALMO which immediatelly proceeded to the area.
MALMO then got visual contact with the attacking skiff and fired warning shots and flares. The skiff stopped after pursuit and was boarded by a VPD (Vessel Protection Detachment) sent out from MALMO. On board the skiff some weapons, GPS equipment, grappling hooks and barrels of fuel were found. 7 suspected pirates were captured and are at present being held on board HMS MALMO for further investigation.
Tip of the hat to Bryan for the info.
Labels: Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean, Seychelles, Somali Pirates, Somalia
The Axis of Evil Rises Again
Let the dangerous games begin again as set out in Kim's Nuclear Fallout:
If history is any guide, Kim's strategy is to keep escalating with tests and proliferation until he extorts another round of money, aid and global recognition. This time in particular he's testing President Barack Obama and his vow to "engage" the world's rogues.
By early accounts, yesterday's underground test outside the northeastern city of Kilju was successful. If the initial reports of a 10 to 20 kiloton blast are true, then the North's scientists have come a long way since their first test in October 2006. That blast registered less than a kiloton and was widely considered a failure abroad, if not in the North, where Kim used it to bolster his prestige.
In response to that test, the Bush Administration and China at first increased sanctions and diplomatic pressure. But they quickly turned to strike a deal offering Pyongyang aid and recognition in return for the North's promise to dismantle its nuclear programs.
Kim is now going back to his familiar playbook with Mr. Obama in the White House, and he can't be displeased with the reaction. After the North launched a long-range ballistic missile over Japan in April, Mr. Obama declared that "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something. The world must stand together to prevent the spread of these weapons. Now is the time for a strong international response." But the U.S. couldn't even get a Security Council resolution at the U.N. and had to settle for a nonbinding "presidential statement" of rebuke.
The stakes here go beyond the ambitions of one nasty regime. North Korea has shown in the past it is willing to sell its missile and other technology around the world, not least to Iran and Syria. The mullahs in Tehran and other rogues are also carefully watching the response of the new American President as they contemplate the costs of their own WMD ambitions. Mr. Obama won the White House while promising that his brand of kinder, gentler diplomacy would better rally the world against bad actors. Now is the time to prove it.
What's the compromise position for someone who wants you dead? Not all disagreements can be resolved with mediation.
Consider the North's goals. First and foremost, Chairman Kim wants the international community to recognize his nation as a nuclear-weapons state. Second, the regime seeks to destabilize the South Korean government of President Lee Myung-bak, who has taken a much tougher approach to Pyongyang than his two predecessors, Kim Dae-jung and Roh Moo-hyun. Third, Great Leader Kim -- he has been trying to elevate his status from "Dear Leader" -- undoubtedly wants additional assistance from international donors to alleviate the hardship caused by the four-year downturn in the North Korean economy. And as always, Pyongyang's ruler hopes to bolster the popularity of his regime among hungry North Koreans -- and the senior generals whose backing he needs to continue his increasingly tenuous rule and to pass power to one of his ill-prepared sons.
Yet Kim had one more objective in mind when he set off the nuclear device in Kilju yesterday. And that reason alone should be sufficient to put North Korea at the top of the foreign-policy inbox for the next several years. The official Korean Central News Agency said this immediately after the detonation: "The results of the test helped satisfactorily settle the scientific and technological problems arising in further increasing the power of nuclear weapons and steadily developing nuclear technology." Ominously, this does not look like idle propaganda. This is sales talk. North Korea appears set to go into high gear and merchandise its nuclear arsenal.
North Korea's last nuclear test, in October 2006, was by all accounts a dud. The North Koreans were too ambitious in their designs, used unsuitable plutonium, or had not mastered the intricacies of the triggering device. In any event, the yield was less than a kiloton, well below the four kilotons they had predicted when they gave the Chinese a warning of the test. To get over the embarrassment of the "fizzle," Kim's technicians had to detonate another device to validate their designs and demonstrate the power of their weapon. The Iranians who witnessed the event three years ago could not have been overly impressed with the low yield. And Tehran is an important customer to the North Koreans, because the Islamic Republic has, in all probability, funded at least one acquirer of Kim's nuclear technology.
That acquirer would be Syria, which was building what looked like a reactor of North Korean design in their desert. The Israelis destroyed that secret facility in September 2007 in a daring air raid. We do not know at this moment if Damascus has abandoned its nuclear ambitions, but it is clear the Iranians have not. They are somewhere between one to three years to a working nuclear device of their own. Undoubtedly, we will hear in the next few months reports that Tehran's technicians were again witnesses to yesterday's test.
There is no greater threat to the United States than the proliferation of nuclear weapons to dangerous and hostile regimes. The Bush administration, however, never made North Korea pay any price for crossing the "red line" of selling nuclear technology. In fact, Bush policy in later years centered on providing benefits to Pyongyang for its continued participation in denuclearization talks. The American failure to impose consequences on the North apparently led Kim to think he could continue to design, test and even spread weapons technology.
We could be at one of the most consequential moments of our times. North Korea is taking on the world, and we have no choice but to respond.
UPDATE: Some thoughts at One Free Korea in Nuclear Groundhog Day in North Korea. And at DPRK Studies: "Why North Korea Conducted a Second Nuclear Test":
What it’s not about: Finally, Pyongyang did not conduct this second nuclear test because it felt ignored or wanted more attention from the Obama administration. It’s a reason that gets attached to many North Korean actions as sometimes North Korean acts of brinkmanship are indeed meant to get America’s attention, but not this time I think. After the April TD-2 test, North Korea threatened to escalate – what we’re seeing now – if the UN even discussed the TD-2 issue. A ridiculous and absurd demand, since the UN Security Council was practically guaranteed to make some sort of watered down statement. North Korea likely had a nuclear test planned before April and only the most unrealistic of responses from the U.S. would have prevented it.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met here on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of it as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But in a larger sense we can not dedicate - we can not consecrate - we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled, here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but can never forget what they did here. It is for us, the living, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they have, thus far, so nobly carried on. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us - that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation shall have a new birth of freedom; and that this government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. - Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
No Sunday Ship History this weekend. This post is the same as I ran last year, but let me add this: Gettysburg has been followed by a thousand other battlefields in North Africa, the North Atlantic, the South Pacific, the North Pacific, the sky over Germany, Japan, the Marianas, Vietnam, Iraq, and on Europe's soil and hundreds of mile at sea. The "government of the people" still stands.
UPDATE: A reminder from a reader that it's not just the warriors we should remember :
Standing nearby is a replica of Sydney’s hull serving as a stele or grave marker and looking out to sea is the bronze figure of a waiting woman (holding her hat against the sea breeze), representing the women who were left behind, waiting in vain for those who would never return. Through her, visitors can feel the pain of the loss felt by so many.
U.S. Navy Future: 200 ships?
A trio of C-Span presentations made a Hudson Institute forum worth watching. Takes about 3 hours:
Status of the Navy:
Particular attention should be paid to James Clad's presentation starting about 30 minutes in. And Aaron Friedberg's comments following. The theme is the long term effects of a decline in U.S. maritime capability in the Indian and Western Pacific Oceans. The post presentation Q&A discusses the "surprise" we are experiencing with China's rapid increase in potential power. And the perceived lack of U.S. Navy presence in the area. Has China already limited our access to the Strait of Taiwan and the South China Sea?
Retired admiral and current U.S. Rep Sestak (D. PA) presentation on the status of the Navy:
Capability vs. numbers of units. Interesting discussion re maneuverable ballistic anti-ship missiles and ABM Aegis ships about 43 minutes in. He likes the LCS about 47 minutes in. Except there is a problem with module shifting. And he does peg the Navy's pending lack of heavy lift helos when the H-53s go bye-bye. The H-60 cannot replace the lift that the H-3 and H-53s had.
Former SecNav John Lehman here at the same event:
"We should look like we know what we're doing." Telling the U.S. merchant fleet that it's not the Navy's job to provide freedom of the sea, even against Somali pirates in small skiffs, isn't sending the right message. The Chinese don't believe we can project sufficient force, perhaps with some reason. And we are not managing procurement well.
Capability based solely on models is a dangerous path;
Hard to send one ship, no matter how capable to 2 different locations at the same time;
Numbers do matter;
When the nation is involved in land wars, the Navy needs to continually speak up loudly about the importance of the U.S. being a maritime nation.
UPDATE: Interesting discussion:
I was also interested to hear the Chief of Naval Operations state yesterday, at the Full Committee hearing, that the Navy still intends to maintain a minimum of 313 ships. It had begun to sound as if the Secretary of Defense, in his Foreign Affairs article, and the Navy, in its budget roll out, were beginning to back away from that number. It was not clear to me how the Navy planned to implement the joint Maritime Strategy, with its emphasis on forward presence, if the Navy intended to accept fewer ships. A ship can only be in one place at once and today’s fleet is the smallest it has been for nearly one hundred years.
Labels: U.S.Navy
Somali Pirates: Pirate Negotiator
Another excellent report from National Public Radio in After A Pirate Negotiation, A Personal Connection. Following negotiating the payment of ransom for a capture Danish ship, the pirate negotiator called the shipping company negotiator for a little post deal wrap up:
Mohammed says he gets something out of the relationship, too. He doesn't see himself as a pirate. He says he agreed to negotiate for pirates so he could learn enough about their business to start his own.
"If I become an expert on piracy and try to milk that, I think it is a legit business," he says. "The news media and global news media will need someone who is going to be an authority, to report from the inner feelings of a pirate, and to report whether pirates are going to stay around for a long time or not, and how to eliminate piracy."
Gullestrup sounds satisfied with that arrangement. "We tried to help him by giving him credentials as an expert in piracy locally, and he's trying to establish himself as a piracy consultant. It's a quid pro quo," he says. "It's not like we're bosom buddies. It's a business relationship."
That's one thing to keep in mind - for the pirate food chain, this is a business, shades of the Barbary Coast.
Labels: Somali Pirates, Somalia
Somali Pirates Attack, Canadian Warship Responds
A reader (thanks, Bryan!) emailed me about this - an American CBS television reporter is out riding on the the HMCS Winnipeg and fled the following Exclusive: Pirate Drama Unfolds Up Close:
In the gulf of Aden, on board the Canadian warship Winnipeg Friday morning, the first calls came into the bridge from the cargo ship Maria K, reports CBS News correspondent Sheila MacVicar.
"They are still shooting with rocket-propelled grenades," the Maria K radioed.
"This is clearly an act of piracy," the commander of the HMCS Winnipeg Craig Baines told MacVicar. "The merchant seamen said they saw rocket propelled grenades being fired at them."
The pirates move fast. To prevent a hijacking there is very little time for action. Within minutes three naval helicopters were in the air.
"The pirate skiff is breaking off," a crewman radioed. "They're heading north."
Suddenly, the pirates break off their pursuit of the Maria K and head for an American ship. It's the Maersk Virginia - sister ship to the Maersk Alabama, hijacked last month.
Maersk Virginia escapes the attack, too.
Watch CBS Videos Online
A little overly dramatic for my taste, and I doubt the pirates in the skiffs connected the Maersk ships, but an interesting report. Good job, Canadians and Italians.
Another report on the Maersk Virginia attack.
Maria K photo Ivan Meshkov from ShipSpotting.com and used in accord with the terms there.
UPDATE: Nine suspected pirates nabbed by the Italian Navy in the incident.
Labels: Canadian Forces, Gulf of Aden, Somali Pirates
This Memorial Day
As we honor the fallen who have given their lives in the service of this country, the roll call has grown by 5 more: Navy Helicopter Crewmembers Identified:
The names of the five Helicopter Anti-submarine Squadron (HS) 6 aircrew involved in the crash of a Navy HH-60 Seahawk helicopter the evening of May 19 were released May 21.
- Lt. Cmdr. Eric J. Purvis, 37, of Poway, Calif.
- Lt. Allison M. Oubre, 27, of Slidell, La.
- Naval Air Crewman 1st Class (AW/NAC) Samuel "Grant" Kerslake, 41, of Hot Springs, Ark.
- Naval Air Crewman 2nd Class (AW/NAC) Aaron L. Clingman, 25, of Bend, Ore.
- Naval Air Crewman 3rd Class (AW/NAC) Sean M. Ward, 20, of Lovelock, Nev.
It is not just our grandfathers and fathers we honor this weekend. Nor is it just this crew.
Our friends, our classmates, our children, our grandchildren . . .
Say a little prayer, will you, sometime this weekend?
Labels: Memorial Day
"News Service" says "Somali 'pirate' pleads not guilty"
The BBC, a "News Service" uses "quotation marks" (a/k/a "scare quotes") to "report" on the status of a pretrial hearing in "New York": "Somali 'pirate' pleads not guilty:
A Somali man arrested after a US captain was kidnapped has pleaded not guilty to 10 charges in a New York court, including piracy.
Abde Wale Abdul Kadhir Muse was also charged with holding a hostage for ransom and armed hijacking.
He spoke through a translator during the brief appearance. His next hearing was set for 17 September.
His lawyers said they had difficulty communicating with him, and that he was "confused" about the situation.
Defence lawyer Phil Weinstein also said "they are giving him medications that he doesn't understand", AFP news agency reported.
It was unclear what the medication was for.
I dunno, maybe khat withdrawal? Usually drug use is used to attempt to excuse the crime ...
This kid is lucky only his compatriots died in the affair for which he is standing trial.
Labels: Pirate Trial
Coming soon: Southwest Monsoon, Gulf of Aden and Western Arabian Sea
The monsoon is coming, the monsoon is coming! With which should come a hiatus in Somali pirate attacks because of the sea being too rough and the winds being too high for easy small boat operations.
From a U.S. Navy meteorological tutorial:
Over the Gulf of Aden the Southwest Monsoon usually sets in towards the end of May or early in June, shortly after it has become fully established over the western Arabian Sea. Once established, conditions persist throughout June, July and August. Near the eastern entrance SSW winds prevail and the wind speed increases very rapidly as the entrance is approached from the west. In July typical conditions are: 11-16 kt over the Gulf and eastward to about 52E, becoming 22-27 kt in the area of 52-54E, and further increasing to 28-33 kt in the vicinity of 56-60E. While gale force winds are infrequent in the Gulf, gales of 34 to 40 kt are experienced on about 11 days per month in the 52-54E zone. A marked increase in wave and swell heights are also experienced as one passes eastward out of the Gulf of Aden into the western Arabian Sea.
The region in which the Southwest Monsoon winds are strongest is in a belt running northeastward from about 7N on the African coast, passing close to the eastward of Ras Hafun and Socatra and onward to about 16-18N, 60E. During July in this area winds average 22-33 kt and are greater than 34 kt about 20% of the time. This belt of persistent strong southwesterly flow is referred to as the Somalia Low Level Jet (LLJ). Over the open water of the southwestern Arabian Sea there is very little diurnal variation in winds.
Fog and mist occur frequently along coastal Somalia and Oman during the Southwest Monsoon and may extend some 200 nm offshore. This weather condition is in response to the persistent along shore low level jet southwesterly winds, the induced Ekman Spiral offshore water transport, resulting upwelled subsurface cool water, lowered SST's and, marine boundary layer saturation and fog/stratus development. This pattern of wind, upwelling, cold SST's and low clouds and fog is similar to that found off the west coast of the US during the summer season when the dominant eastern Pacific high results in persistent northwesterly winds along that coast.
Opposite the mouth of the Gulf of Aden there are some minor diurnal wind variations. To the north of Ras Asir, including the Socotra Island area, the maximum is at midnight and the minimum is in the early afternoon, while to the east and south of Socotra there is a maximum in the early afternoon and minimum in the early morning. As is typical over the open seas, the speed range of the diurnal variation is relatively small being on the order of 5 kt or less.
The diurnal variation of wind speed over the open Gulf of Aden is similar in timing to that east of Socotra, but the speed range is larger. The midday maximum tends to more than double the 2000 LST (1700Z) minimum. The diurnal variation is larger yet on both the northern and southern shores and over the near coastal waters.
SOMALI LOW-LEVEL JET
The "Somali Jet" is a relatively narrow wind stream along the East African Coast and
is part of the larger Southwest Monsoon circulation pattern. The Somali Jet is one of the strongest and most sustained low-level wind systems on earth. It is normally strongest in July and August when core maximum speeds up to 100 kt have been observed. The core is usually centered at an elevation of about 5000 ft. Figure 1 shows a typical July cloud pattern over the Arabian Sea during a moderately strong Southwest Monsoon situation. A relatively intense Somali Jet would be expected under this situation. The low-level wind speed maximum just east of Socotra Island usually appears as a nearly cloud free area bounded on the north and east by diverging cloud lines. Figure 2 shows a monthly mean airflow chart at 3500 ft for July. Notice the three local speed maxima, north of Madagasgar, off the coast of Kenya, and to the east of Socotra Island. These are semi- permanent low-level wind features during the Southwest Monsoon.
SST=Sea Surface Temperature. LST= Local Standard Time
Labels: Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean, Somali Pirates, Somalia
Somail Pirates: Pirate Trials
Excellent summary of the issues facing the countries who are undertaking putting captured Somali pirates on trial from the BBC in "Pirates in the dock":
The appearance of five suspected Somali pirates in court in the Netherlands this week and the scheduled court hearing of a Somali teenager in New York on Thursday have focused attention once more on the legal challenges posed by 21st-century piracy.
Reports that some of the suspects were enjoying their stay in Dutch prison cells and were considering eventually claiming asylum, were met with disdain by the country's foreign minister who was quoted as saying he would prefer it if they were being tried in Kenya under UN auspices.
But, as Cyrus Mody from the International Maritime Bureau points out, the length of time taken bringing some of these cases to trial indicates the complexities involved.
The logistical and legal burdens involved in transporting pirate suspects to Western countries can be daunting, he says.
"It is difficult getting the pieces together, the evidence, the witnesses. Who's going to pay for it all?
"And if a prosecution fails, the burden lies with that country. There is always the prospect the suspected pirate might then claim asylum," he told the BBC.
Because of such difficulties, countries are reluctant to conduct their own trials.
Geoffrey Till, professor of Maritime Studies at Kings College in London, told the anti-piracy conference that some navies were wary of bringing suspects back for trial because of European Union human rights laws, which guarantee all people, including pirates, respect for their basic rights.
Piracy is defined by UN conventions as a universal crime and each country may arrest pirates at sea and prosecute them at home.
But whether a country can prosecute arrested pirates depends on its own laws. Several countries do not know how to incorporate the convention into their domestic jurisdiction.
Criminal defense counsel will probably be using variations on the theme announced by one of the defense counsel in the Dutch courts - "Poverty made my client do it" -
A lawyer for one of five suspected Somali pirates being prosecuted in the Netherlands described his client Monday as a modern-day Robin Hood driven by poverty to hijack ships.
This isn't too surprising, since the pirates have long insisted they are de facto coast guard units, protecting the Somali coast from foreign exploiters and that the exploitation has ruined the Somali fishing grounds, forcing the former fishermen to seek other ways to earn money. Other ways including hijacking ships carrying free food for other Somalis and threatening to kill innocent crew members of ships that have had nothing to do with Somalia at all.
A federal grand jury has now indicted the only Somali pirate in U.S. custody. He was captured as part of the Maersk Alabama attempted seizure. Reported here:
A Somali teenager whose role in the commandeering of an American cargo ship thrust him into the international spotlight has been indicted on multiple piracy charges, authorities said Tuesday.
Abdiwali Abdiqadir Muse — the only pirate to survive the siege — has been jailed in Manhattan since he was captured on April 12 and flown to the United States to face what's believed to be the first U.S. piracy prosecution in more than a century.
Muse, 18, was expected to enter a plea later this week on 10 counts, including piracy under the law of nations, conspiracy, hostage-taking, kidnapping and possession of a machine gun while seizing a ship by force.
Now, a common lawyer saying is that a grand jury is so much under the prosecutor's sway that a prosecutor could "indict a ham sandwich" if he wanted, though there would seem to be plenty of evidence available in the Muse case. And the money to fly in witnesses, etc.
If I were Muse, I would ask to see a menu of the educational opportunities available in federal prison and see if I could get a head start on that GED and college prep. And ask for a green suit with a nifty hat with a feather in it.
Labels: Pirate Trial, Somali Pirates, Somalia
Iran: Medium Range Missile Tested
Reported as Iran 'test launches' medium-range missile:
Iran says it has successfully test launched a mid-range surface-to-surface missile, state media has reported.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said the Sajjil-2 missile used "advanced technology" and had "landed exactly" on the unspecified target.
He said the missile used solid fuel and was "able to go beyond the atmosphere then come back and hit its target".
Hmmm. Solid fuel.
UPDATE: Steeljaw has a relevant post here linking to the new Missile Defense Agency publication Foreign Ballistic Missile Capabilities, which contains the following on Iran:
Iran does not yet have the technical capability to produce an ICBM, but it is believed they
may develop one by 2015. Iran has continued research and development on its longer
range ballistic missile programs and has publicly reiterated its commitment to developing
SLVs, which contain most of the key building blocks for an ICBM. Iran launched its Safir
SLV on 17 August 2008 in a failed attempt to orbit its indigenously produced Omid satellite.
On 2 February 2009 Iran again launched a Safir SLV, successfully inserting the Omid satellite
into orbit. This success shows progress in some technologies relevant to ICBMs.
Iran has also indicated it has a solid-propellant MRBM in development, and it may seek to develop additional longer-range MRBMs and IRBMs. This includes a variant of the North Korean new IRBM which reportedly has been sold to Iran. (footnotes omitted)
An SLV is a Space Launch Vehicle. Apparently Iran is moving along on it "solid-propellant MRBM.
Potential ranges of Iranian missiles:
Since the Iranians assert the range of the Sajjil-2 is 2000 km, the red line gives you an idea on the range potential, not that Iranian leaders have ever vowed to wipe Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria or Greece off the map. Israel is not impressed:
Israel said that the new missile test should also be a source of concern for European countries which would also now be in range.
"In terms of strategic importance, this new missile test doesn't change anything for us since the Iranians already tested a missile with a range of 1,500 kilometres (nearly 950 miles), but it should worry the Europeans," Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said.
"The Iranians are also trying to develop a ballistic missile with a range of 10,000 kilometres (6,250 miles) that could reach the coast of the United States," Ayalon told public radio.
Blackmail by missile. Coming soon to a town near you.
Cutting defense budgets in missile defense? Have you called your Congresspersons?
Labels: Iran, Missile Defense
Somali Pirates: EU Counter-Piracy Mission May Expand to Cover Seychelles
After a flurry of pirate attacks in and around the Seychelles, the EU may extend anti-piracy efforts to cover the islands, as set out here:
The European Union may expand its naval anti-piracy operations to cover the Seychelles islands, 1,500 kilometres from the Somali coastline, Germany's defence minister said Monday.
The Seychelles, an archipelago of more than 100 islands, has been the scene of several recent attacks.
"We see that the pirates are extending their activities into the Indian Ocean, so the area around the Seychelles should be included in the operation," German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung said before a meeting of the European Union's foreign and defence ministers.
Labels: EU, Indian Ocean, Seychelles, Somali Pirates
Tuesday Reading
Fred Fry's Martime Monday 162 with real life pictures of German logistics operations and enough links that I didn't get to posting a link to Fred until today.
Weather for Fighting Pirates
From here, forecasts for winds and waves for the 20th of May 2009 in the Gulf of Aden, off East Somalia and by the Seychelles. Click to enlarge.
Wind and waves not looking good for pirate action off eastern Somalia or near the Seychelles. Winds increasing in Gulf of Aden, but waves still under/about 1 meter. Monsoon weather expected in about 10 days, with a subsequent decrease in piracy.
Labels: Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean, Somali Pirates, Weather and Pirates
Gulf of Aden Group Transits
From the April 2009 Maritime Liaison Office Bahrain News letter:
Originally begun by EU Naval Forces, the Gulf of Aden Group Transits (GOAGT) scheme is now the primary method for merchant vessels transiting the area to deter acts of piracy. GOA GT is endorsed by the general maritime community and supported by all navies involved in the regional counter piracy mission. This includes naval forces from the EU, US, Coalition Maritime Forces, NATO, China, Japan, Korea, and regional countries. Based on old anti-submarine tactics, the GOA Group Transit is simple. Pirate attacks rarely happen at night, thus merchant ships should transit “high risk” areas of the IRTC at night. Dawn and dusk are when most pirate attacks occur, thus that these “high risk” times are when naval warships should be present. Merchant ships are grouped by speed, with staggered starting points.This allows each group to transit the “high risk” areas at night, and allows the groups to reach the same point at the same time. Upon arrival at this point,at either dawn or dusk, the groups are protected by naval assets who have “sanitized” the area. As a result of the GOA GT, merchant ships transit “high risk” areas at night, and are protected by naval assets at the most “high risk”times. Additionally, the grouping of ships by speed allows close monitoring and quicker response by the nearest naval asset in case of emergency. Merchant activity in the corridor is separated, with westbound traffic to the north and Eastbound traffic to the south. Compared to convoys and escorts, the GOAGT is the most effective use of limited military assets to protect the maximum number of ships.
UPDATE: GOAGT is careful to point out, as a correction to the MARLO Newsletter item, that Military Security Centre (Horn of Africa) (MSC(HOA) "actually run the system." GOAGT states that it offers a different level of service than does MSC(HOA)... "the vessels that do register with us, GoAGT, get a bridge call every 3 hours and acknowledgement and threat assessment and pirate weather forecast for the trip."
The Gulf of Aden Group Transits website is here and is currently under construction.
MARLO Bahrain website is here. It offers up some useful advice if trying to avoid pirates:
* If the Master has exercised his right to turn off the Automatic Identification System (AIS), this should be turned on once the ship comes under pirate attack. * Sound emergency alarm and make ‘Pirate Attack’ PA announcement in accordance with the ship’s emergency plan. * Make ‘Mayday’ call on VHF Ch 16 (and backup Ch 08, which is monitored by naval units). Send a distress message via the DSC (Digital Selective Calling) system and Inmarsat-C as applicable * Maximize ship speed. In the Gulf of Aden, evidence to date from failed attacks is that the pirates will give up if unable to board within 30 45 minutes. If you can buy time until the military forces can arrive, this often leads the pirates to abort their attack. * Prevent skiffs from closing by altering course and increasing speed where possible. Pirates have great difficulty boarding a ship that is: o Making way at over 15 knots. o Maneuvering - Consider increasing the pirates’ exposure to wind/waves and using bow wave and stern wash to restrict pirate craft coming alongside. Aggressive maneuvering, such as small zigzagging, should be attempted when skiffs are close to ships side (within 10-20 meters). Try to keep pirate skiffs in the positive pressure zones and out of the negative pressure zone. After skiffs have hauled off, vessel should straighten up and try to regain speed. * Activate fire pump defensive measures. * Muster all remaining crew in defined safe muster area/citadel * DO NOT STOP.
Gulf of Aden Transit Route map by Ken Adams.
Labels: Gulf of Aden, Marlo, Somali Pirates
Somali Pirates: Meet the Aussies
What follows is not really a headline that creates the proper image, is it? "Aussie ships assist in pirate attack" - though it means the Aussies engaged some pirates off Somalia:
Two Australian warships have rushed to the aid of a freighter under attack in the Gulf of Aden from pirates firing rocket propelled grenades and attempting to board the vessel by force.
HMAS Sydney and HMAS Ballarat responded to a distress call from the merchant vessel, MV Dubai Princess, at about 6pm Australian time on Sunday.
Upon receiving the distress call, the Sydney closed in on the merchant vessel and launched a helicopter to assess the situation, while the Ballarat went to action stations.
As the situation developed, another merchant vessel, MV MSC Stella, was also harassed by small vessels in the same area.
The head of the Australian Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, said the measured response by the two Australian ships provided security to the merchant vessels and stabilised the situation.
"Sydney closed in on the merchant vessel and launched her embarked Sea Hawk helicopter to gain an appraisal of the situation," Air Chief Marshal Houston said in a statement.
"About the same time, Ballarat went to action stations and joined the response. She was instrumental in supporting MV MSC Stella."
The pirates fled the area after the two frigates and the helicopter appeared. The action is believed to have taken place about 170km south of Yemen.
"It appears the situation de-escalated once Sydney and Ballarat asserted their presence at the scene and from the reports we have, no injuries were suffered by merchant sailors."
Labels: Australia, Gulf of Aden, Somali Pirates, Somalia
Sunday Ship History: "Torpedo Juice"
If you have not had the opportunity of reading the books written by Ferrol Sams, you have missed one of life's little pleasures. The final book of the triology that began with Run with the Horsemen is When All the World Was Young. The book, set in the days before and during WWII, is a coming of age tale featuring a former medical student's adventures in the Army as he learns about himself and his place in the world.
One of the things he learns is that the military has the same proportion of geniuses and fools as does the civilian world and that the distribution is evenly spaced through the ranks. Which he also learns, thus making it all the more fun for him to outwit some of the gaggle of fools who happen to rank above him and who further assume their exalted status is due to some sort of divine right.
Making the occasional jerk you work for suffer from his or her own foolishness is, after all, is one of the secrets of a good soldier or sailor. Not that I am admitting that I know that from practical experience, you understand...
But it might help, to explain the fascination in some circles with the legendary substance known as "torpedo juice." After all, "torpedo juice" is really about "sticking it to the man" - maybe even one man.
Before we get to that man, we need to remember some facts about the United States Navy. First, taking traditions from our English brethren, the American Navy used to provide its sailors with grog, first in the form of rum and then as whiskey or "Bob Smith." See here for that story.
Starting in about 1862, during the American Civil War, orders were given to limit the presence of distilled spirits on Navy ships:
1862 Spirit ration was discontinued by act of Congress on 14 July. "Distilled spirituous liquors" were also banned from all naval vessels "except as medical stores and upon the order and under the control of the medical officers of such vessels." Those who are entitled to the spirit ration will receive a commutation payment of 5 cents per day (in addition to their regular pay) beginning 1 September.
1862 General Order issued by Gideon Welles on 16 September, required captains of naval vessels to remove all distilled liquors from their ships except those that serve as medical stores. "Ale, beer, wine, and other liquors not distilled" were exempted from the provisions of the act of 14 July 1862.
1864 Welles' General Order 29 of 1 February, stated that beer, ale, wine, "and other liquors not prohibited by law on board vessels of the Navy" were to "be regarded as private stores" and were "not [to] be brought on board without the sanction of the commanding officer."
In 1893, the officer corps worked to be allowed to establish their own private wine messes.
In 1914, along comes Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels, who, among his many other flaws, decided it was in the best interest of the U.S. Navy to ban alcohol of any form under General Order 99:
"The use or introduction for drinking purposes of alcoholic liquors on board any naval vessel, or within any navy yard or station, is strictly prohibited, and commanding officers will be held directly responsible for the enforcement of this order."
It should be noted that Daniels seemed to have a thing about anyone having any fun near the Navy. He also attempted a ban on prostitution:
In 1917, Secretary Daniels determined that no prostitution would be permitted within a five-mile radius of naval installations.
As you might gather, the shore side bans never really worked. Sailors on the beach had to travel further for drink and frolic, but the bar and brothel business never slowed.
Even during Prohibition, Americans who wanted a drink managed to find one when needed. American sailors were no different.
After Prohibition ended, officers clubs were allowed to serve alcohol. However, the restriction on alcohol on ships continued.
In the early days of American torpedoes, the torpedoes were powered by steam, generated by burning a combination of fuel and air. The fuel consisted of alcohol.
It's a short step from knowing that to being willing and able to divert some of the fuel to - personal use. Except of course, that the Navy was not stupid. It modified the alcohol with an additive - some suggest it was something called "pink lady" and other say it was croton oil. Croton oil is not nice.
The sailor in need of a drink, however, is not easily denied. According to this site, reports that the additive could be filtered out of the fuel by straining it through a compressed loaf of bread is a myth. In the book, Find 'em, chase 'em, sink 'em by Mike Ostlund, the removal technique involves setting up a still, boiling off the alcohol and re-condensing it without the additive. Nearly everyone agrees the alcohol was mixed with fruit juice to render it palatable.
In some cases, it appears that some crews over indulged:
On 5 December 1943, an intrepid group of THORN shipmates decided to hold an early Christmas celebration in the after crews quarters. As a result of these "hi-jinks", HIRAM W. JONES, JR., JOSEPH W. KISER, ERVIN MABRY, JAMES M. NEALE and JOSE A. PENALVER were charged with "under the influence of intoxicating liquor", and other offenses.
They were punished.
Marines on the beach in Guadalcanal partook:
The torpedoes ran on alcohol and they used to put what they called pink lady in it, to make you sick if you drank it. If the planes didn't use the torpedoes, we were supposed to dump the liquid out. We dumped it out, but not back in the barrel. We made torpedo juice instead. We had copper tubing and guys from Tennessee. They knew what to do. At night in the foxholes, we'd run the stuff through a still and get the pink lady out of it.
On at least one occasion, the "torpedo juice" came in handy - when a submarine pharmacist mate had to perform a emergency appendectomy on a submerged submarine:
Rubber gloves dipped in torpedo alcohol were drawn upon the youthful "Doc's" hands.
So, where did the croton free alcohol come from?
American sailor ingenuity, you can be sure.
I never sampled "torpedo juice" - but I do recall the days when we worked in the cold rain and the skipper would tell the doc to provide the crew with some medicinal alcohol (0ddly enough it was in the form of those airline mini bottles) and "splice the main brace."
I hear sailors now sometimes get beer on special occasions.
Somewhere Josephus Daniels rolls over in his grave.
Torpedo cutaway from here.
UPDATE: The torpedo cutaway, as you will find by following the above link, leads to one page of a remarkable collection of information concerning the U.S. Navy at the site of Gene Slover GENE SLOVER'S US NAVY PAGES which is well worth a tour.
Labels: Sunday Ship History
Somali Piracy: The Business Model
U.S. National Public Radio reporter gets some pirates to discuss their business model in The Piracy Business: All The Headaches, But No Suits.
A link directly to the media player here.
Very well done, Gwen Thompkins!
And another voice. An interview conducted by Professor Claude Berube of the U.S. Naval Academy for As Maine Goes.
Somali Pirates: "Shipping Industry dismisses reports of targeted Somali pirate attacks"
Following up media reports of a "London-based" spy network for Somali pirates (see here), more experts join in doubting that any sort network exists, as in the case of the ICC International Maritime Bureau in
Shipping Industry dismisses reports of targeted Somali pirate attacks:
The ICC International Maritime Bureau (IMB), in consultation with the International Chamber of Shipping, INTERTANKO and BIMCO, today dismissed a number of recent press reports claiming that pirates off the Somali coast target vessels in advance, allegedly making use of a network of international contacts.
Vessels attacked so far have included a range of vessel types from fishing boats and coastal dhows to bulk carriers and a supertanker. The vessels have been of many diverse flags, crewed by different nationalities, with various cargoes on board destined for a wide range of ports.
Pirates have even attempted to attack naval units mistakenly believing them to be merchant vessels. Pirates target vessels that are easy to board and in their vicinity. If an attack is successfully repelled they move on to another vessel. All the evidence indicates that these are primarily opportunistic crimes. The suggestion that vessels are targeted in advance using shore based intelligence is spurious.
That's not to say pirates are getting info on general ship movements or even on the location of military escort ships, but ....
Labels: IMB, Pirate Intelligence Network, Somali Pirates
Somali Pirates: Catching Suspected Pirates
Catching suspected pirates Turkish-Led CTF 151 Makes First Suspected Pirate Capture:
Ships from Combined Task Force (CTF) 151 prevented a piracy attack in the Gulf of Aden, which resulted in the apprehension of more than a dozen suspected pirates aboard an alleged “mothership” yesterday.
At approximately 3:30 p.m., the Republic of Korea Destroyer, ROKS Munmu the Great (DDG 976) and guided missile cruiser USS Gettysburg (CG 64) responded to a distress call from the Egyptian-flagged Motor Vessel Amira, which reported being attacked approximately 75 nautical miles south of Al Mukalla, Yemen.
Several assault rifle rounds and one rocket propelled grenade round struck M/V Amira resulting in little to no damage to the ship. A rope was thrown from the skiff in an attempt to board but the attempt failed and the suspected pirates abandoned their attack.
Gettysburg and Munmu the Great launched their embarked helicopters which flew immediately to Amira’s location. During its flight, the SH-60B helicopter assigned to Helicopter Anti-submarine Squadron Light (HSL) 46 located a dhow suspected of serving as a pirate “mothership” with approximately 17 people onboard.
A Gettysburg visit, board, search and seizure (VBSS) team boarded the suspected “mothership” along with members of U.S. Coast Guard Legal Detachment (LEDET) 409 and apprehended the suspected pirates after finding eight assault rifles, a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and one rocket-propelled grenade. All 17 of the passengers were brought on board Gettysburg for further questioning.
Video of VBSS team:
Labels: CTF151, Somali Pirates, Somalia
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About EagleSpeak
Mark Tempest
The main focus of this blog is maritime security. Other matters may appear. I am a retired attorney and a retired Navy Reserve Captain (Surface Warfare). Opinions expressed herein are my own. Sometimes I have the experience to back them up. Your opinions may vary. Don't panic. Feel free to disagree, that's what free speech is all about. Nothing contained herein should be confused as me giving legal advice to anyone. If you are confused, welcome to the club. All mistakes herein are my fault. I have sufficient academic credentials to be dangerous to myself and to others. Comment moderation is at my discretion, so your comments may never appear. You can start your own blog for free and comment there all you want. I enjoy a healthy debate, but not arguing with trolls. If you can't comment without using intemperate language, go someplace else., Under the header: A Griffin missile is launched from USS Hurricane (PC 3) demonstrating the capability for the ships to defend against small boat threats and ensure maritime security through key chokepoints in the U.S. Central Command. (U.S. Army photo by Spc. Terrell Sherman/Released)
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In the Mail: Terror on the Sea: True Tales of Mode...
"News Service" says "Somali 'pirate' pleads not gu...
Coming soon: Southwest Monsoon, Gulf of Aden and W...
Somali Pirates: EU Counter-Piracy Mission May Exp...
Somali Pirates: "Shipping Industry dismisses repor...
Iran to send two warships to Somalia to fight pira...
Somali Pirates: Tactics and Intelligence
Somali Pirates: EU says Somali Pirates coordinatin...
Billions for "Entitlements" - Defense Not So Much
Somali Pirates: An "intelligence network?" Maybe....
Coast Guard issues Maritime Security Directive
Somali Pirates: "Where are the Escorts?"
Somali Pirates: Another "Beginning of the End?"
Sunday Ship History: The Dismal Swamp Canal
Why we like the sea
Jack Kemp
Somali Pirates: Attack on USNS Lewis and Clark
Somali Pirates: Grab a Dutch Ship
Latest ONI Worldwide Threats to Shipping Report (t...
Somali Pirates: Good Weather for Pirating
Somali Pirates: Maersk Calls for Secure Somali Sea...
Somali Pirates: Hijack Ship Out of Convoy
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Home › Weather Glossary - I
Weather Glossary - I
Abbreviation for International Civil Aviation Organisation.
Ice Pellets
Precipitation in the form of pellets of ice with diameter 5mm or less.
Inflow bands
(or Feeder Bands) Bands of low clouds, arranged parallel to the low-level winds and moving into or toward a thunderstorm. They may indicate the strength of the inflow of moist air into the storm and hence its potential severity. Spotters should be especially wary of inflow bands that are curved in a manner suggesting cyclonic rotation; this pattern may indicate the presence of a mesocyclone.
Inflow jets
Local jets of air near the ground flowing inward toward the base of a tornado.
Inflow notch
A radar signature characterized by an indentation in the reflectivity pattern on the inflow side of the storm. The indentation often is V-shaped, but this term should not be confused with V-notch. Supercell thunderstorms often exhibit inflow notches, usualy in the right quadrant of a classic supercell, but sometimes in the eastern part of an HP storm or in the rear part of a storm (rear inflow notch).
Inflow stinger
A inflow band with a stinger-like shape.
Infrared (IR) satellite images are a picture of cloud cover, using the infrared spectrum rather than the visible. IR satellite images indicate the temperature of the cloud-top, by measuring the heat radiating from the clouds. The colder the cloud-top, the brighter the cloud will be on the resulting satellite image. Severe thunderstorms normally have very cold tops, so will show up as bright spots on images.
In general, the clouds will be colder than the land or ocean, so the clouds will be easy to identify. In winter months the land surface can reach temperatures similar to the top of low cloud cover, making it difficult to distinguish cloud from the land. Low cloud can also occasionally be difficult to identify on IR images.See also Satellite images.
The coastal waters zone adjacent to the coastline within which the majority of small craft operate and which is usually within 5 to 10 nautical miles of the coastline.
Incoming solar radiation. Solar heating, sunshine.
The tendency for air parcels to accelerate when they are displaced from their original position; especially, the tendency to accelerate upward after being lifted. Instability is a prerequisite for severe weather - the greater the instability, the greater the potential for severe thunderstorms. See lifted index and sounding.
Intensity of precipitation
Slight or light:
Rain: Individual drops easily identified, puddles form slowly, small streams may flow in gutters.
Drizzle: Can be felt on the face but is not visible. Produces little runoff from roads or roofs. Generally visibility is reduced, but not less than 1000 m.
Snow: Small sparse flakes. Generally visibility is reduced, but not less than 1000 m.
Hail: Sparse hailstones of small size, often mixed with rain.
Moderate:
Rain: Rapidly forming puddles, down pipes flowing freely, some spray visible over hard surface.
Drizzle: Window and road surfaces streaming with moisture. Visibility generally between 400 and 1000 m.
Snow: Large numerous flakes and visibility generally between 400-1000 m.
Hail: particles numerous enough to whiten the ground.
Heavy:
Rain: falls in sheets, misty spray over hard surfaces, may cause roaring noise on roof.
Drizzle: Visibility reduced to less than 400 m.
Snow: Numerous flakes of all sizes. Visibility generally reduced below 400 m.
Hail: A proportion of the hailstones exceed 6 mm diameter.
Inter Tropical Convergence Zone
A relatively narrow zone of persistent thunderstorms in tropical waters. It marks the meeting or convergent point of winds originating from both the northern and southern hemispheres. The ITCZ usually lies poleward of the Equatorial trough.
Generally, a departure from the usual increase or decrease in an atmospheric property with altitude. Specifically it almost always refers to a temperature inversion, i.e., an increase in temperature with height, or to the layer within which such an increase occurs.
Inversions are common in winter when there is a large anticyclone present. Subsiding air in the anticyclone warms as it descends and produces a layer of warmer air around 1000-2000m above the surface. This inversion is strengthened at night due to radiational cooling of the lowest levels of the atmosphere.
Inversions can trap pollutants in the lower parts of the atmosphere, leading to poor visibility, especially in winter when wood fires increase the levels of particles in the atmosphere.
An inversion is present in the lower part of a cap. See sounding.
Isallobar
The line of equal change in atmospheric pressure during a certain time period. It marks the change in pressure tendency.
Isentropic lift
Lifting of air that is travelling along an upward-sloping isentropic surface.
Isentropic lift often is referred to erroneously as overrunning, but more accurately describes the physical process by which the lifting occurs. Situations involving isentropic lift often are characterized by widespread stratiform clouds and rain, but may include elevated convection in the form of embedded thunderstorms.
Isentropic surface
A two-dimensional surface containing points of equal potential temperature.
A line connecting points of equal pressure.
Isobaric surfaces
A surface of equal pressure. Isobaric surfaces are used in upper level charts where geopotential heights are contoured to decribe the upper level features. These charts are typically produced at standard levels such as 850hPa, 700hPa, 500hPa etc. In additional to geopotential height, these can charts are also used to display a variety of parameters such as streamlines, vorticity, moisture, temperature and so on.Also known as a constant pressure surface.
Isodrosotherm
A line connecting points of equal dew point temperature.
Isohyet
A line connecting points of equal precipitation amounts.
Isopleth
General term for a line connecting points of equal value of some quantity. Isobars, isotherms, etc. all are examples of isopleths.
Isotach
A line connecting points of equal wind speed.
A line connecting points of equal temperature.
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Clinical Trial Logistics and Services
FFF Enterprises, Inc. (“FFF”) provides management and support for clinical trials through distribution and supply chain logistics and services. We are recognized by the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy as a Verified-Accredited Wholesale Distributor. FFF has participated in more than 30 clinical trials, supporting the sponsors ranging from IVIG, Albumin and Factors, to West Nile Virus, C-1 Inhibitors, Plasminogen, Varicella Zoster Immune Globulin and Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma therapy. Other areas of expertise include:
Participation in studies for efficacy, safety, tolerability and access to pharmacokinetic (PK) profile
Experience in distributing investigational products for comparator studies
Our regulatory services team verifies site licensing on required documentation for all imported trial products. We also require approvals and documents for export to Canada, and are a Customs Bond Holder.
Distribution and Storage Services
Our dedicated clinical support and operations staff, which includes our Project Manager, Logistics Manager, and Customer Service team, are part of a group of professionally trained staff who manages materials, including drug product and ancillary supplies, to ensure accurate quantities are packaged and shipped to clinical sites.
We are compliant with all external audit requirements, both domestic and international.
Additionally, we are experienced in importing product from the U.K., Canada and the European Union.
Storage Capabilities
Our state-of-the-art storage facility located in Temecula, California is equipped with temperature controlled and monitored (ambient and refrigerated) equipment.
It is also a GMP and 21 CFR 205 compliant facility with secured access.
Our facility provides and supports product return, recall and destruction services.
Additionally, our facility manages delivery expectations to clinical sites by patient or in bulk shipments.
Verified Inventory Program™
Our Verified Inventory Program (VIP) offers medical grade cabinets that are equipped with radio frequency identification (RFID)-powered technology to enable FFF, the sponsor and the CRO to remotely monitor investigational products.
VIP cabinets are temperature controlled for either refrigerated
(2° C to 8° C) or room temperature product storage.
The cabinets are available in four different sizes:
2.3 cu ft.
12 cu ft.
VIP Alerts and Reports
VIP provides real-time inventory alerts and immediate notification when temperatures fluctuate out of specifications, protecting product integrity.
Alerts and reports include:
Periodic Automatic Replenishment (PAR) level alerts
Temperature alerts
Expiration date report
Inventory report (quantities and lots)
Customized usage reports
Nufactor®, Inc.
Nufactor, the specialty pharmacy of FFF Enterprises, Inc., offers comprehensive pharmacy services and specializes in the treatment of patients with chronic conditions with concentration on rare disease states in neurology, immunology, hematology, oncology, dermatology and rheumatology. Nufactor has the ability to both monitor and promote clinical trial compliance so that the sponsor and the CRO’s resources are not wasted.
Through Nufactor, FFF has the ability to deliver products to physician offices and ambulatory infusion clinics.
Nufactor also offers clinical product distribution to a patients’ home and/or office.
On-call pharmacists and nurses are available 24/7/365 to help answer clinical questions or concerns.
Customized reporting is available to the sponsor and the CRO upon request.
Through FFF, Nufactor also offers Lot-Track® product tracking and recall notifications.
Our in-house Marketing team has the ability to create specialized educational patient materials for the sponsored study.
Nufactor has earned the Joint Commission Gold Seal of Approval and is a URAC Accredited Specialty Pharmacy.
For more information regarding Clinical Trial Logistics and Services, contact Bob Vega at (800) 843-7477, ext. 1127.
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Population 62,274 750,229
Population Density 2,678 2,210
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Marietta Real Estate
Marietta is located in Georgia. Marietta, Georgia has a population of 62,274. Marietta is less family-centric than the surrounding county with 27% of the households containing married families with children. The county average for households married with children is 32%.
The median household income in Marietta, Georgia is $41,799. The median household income for the surrounding county is $58,133 compared to the national median of $49,877. The median age of people living in Marietta is 35.2 years.
Marietta is located in central Cobb County, Georgia, United States,[3] and is the county's seat and largest city. As of the 2010 census, the city had a total population of 56,579,[4] making it one of the Atlantametropolitan area's largest suburbs. Marietta is the fourth largest of the principal cities (by population) of the Atlanta metropolitan statistical area.
WHAT TO KNOW ABOUT MARIETTA, GEORGIA
The city has six historic districts, some on the National Register of Historic Places. A seventh, along Kennesaw Avenue, is proving more controversial, and is still being considered as of March 2010. The city's welcome center is located in the historic train depot.
Downtown is the town square and former location of the county courthouse. The square is the site of several cultural productions and public events, including a weekly farmers' market.
The Marietta Players perform semi-professional theater year round. The Strand Theatre has been renovated back to its original design and features classic films and other events.
The Marietta Museum of History exhibits the history of the city and county. The museum is home to thousands of artifacts including items from Marietta residents and businesses. The Marietta Gone with the Wind Museum, also called "Scarlett on the Square", houses a collection of memorabilia related to Gone with the Wind, both the book and the film.
The Big Chicken is a landmark on U.S. 41.
Miramax Films and Disney filmed scenes of the 1995 movie Gordy here.
The CSX freight trains between Atlanta and Chattanooga (Western & Atlantic Subdivision) still run a block west of the town square, past the train depot (now the Visitor Center) and the Kennesaw House, one of only four buildings in Marietta not burned to the ground in Sherman's March to the Sea. The Kennesaw House is home to the Marietta Museum of History[26] which tells the history of Marietta and Cobb County.
Marietta Weather
The average high temperature in July is 88.42 degrees, with an average low temperature in January of 28.79 degrees. The average rainfall is approximately 52.22 inches per year, with inches of snow per year. No weather information available.
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Grammy Winner Barry Manilow will play limited run on Broadway
Home/Concerts, Special Events/Grammy Winner Barry Manilow will play limited run on Broadway
The engagement, which begins in July, is part of the Lunt-Fontanne’s In Residence on Broadway series.
Grammy winner Barry Manilow will be part of the In Residence on Broadway series at the Lunt-Fontanne Theatre, which kicked off May 2–11 with Morrissey.
Manilow, who was last on Broadway in Manilow on Broadway, will play the Lunt-Fontanne July 26–August 17.
“I am thrilled to be returning to my hometown of New York City and performing once again on Broadway,” said Manilow. “It holds a very special place in my heart.”
The artist had 25 consecutive Top 40 hits on the Billboard Hot 100 between 1975 and 1983. The list includes songs that he still sings today: “Mandy,” “It’s a Miracle,” “Could It Be Magic,” “I Write the Songs,” “Tryin’ To Get the Feeling Again,” “This One’s For You,” “Weekend in New England,” “Looks Like We Made It,” “Can’t Smile Without You,” “Even Now,” and the Grammy-winning ”Copacabana (At the Copa).” He’s also got a passion for musical theatre; he wrote the scores for the musicals Harmony and Copacabana.
Manilow just celebrated his 500th show at the International Theater at the Westgate in Las Vegas, where he has been in residency since 2018.
The In Residence series is a collaboration between Live Nation, The Araca Group, and Entertainment Benefits Group. The series continues with Yanni playing the Lunt-Fontanne May 28–June 2, Tony winner Mel Brooks June 17–18, Regina Spektor June 20–26, and illusionist Criss Angel set for July 2–7.
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Those Ungrateful Iraqis →
Disintegration in Iraq – A Call For Withdrawal
Posted on April 2, 2006 by Mash
The New York Times is reporting today that Shia and Sunni Iraqis have begun to flee from mixed Shia-Sunni areas. This migration comes on the heels of increased sectarian strife, death squad activity; and bombings targeting political figures, businesses, ordinary citizens and religious establishments.
The daily body count in Iraq ranges anywhere from 30 to 60 deaths, depending on which source you cite. That translates to 10950 to 21900 deaths per year if the current trend remains steady and does not accelerate. To put these numbers in perspective, consider that during the rule of Saddam Hussein from 1979 to 2003, the US Government’s estimate of the number of deaths is 300,000. That is, about 12500 deaths per year. The current death rate in Iraq equals or far exceeds the deaths during the rule of Saddam Hussein. So, if you pose to the common Iraqi the Ronald Reagan question, "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" it should not come as a surprise if the answer is "No."
The reader can continue the gruesome exercise of comparing body counts with such well-known civil wars as Lebanon and Algeria. If you do work the numbers you will find that in terms of the death rate, Iraq today either equals or exceeds the death rates in these and other civil wars of the 20th Century.
The consequence of the Shia and Sunni communities separating geographically will be further bloodshed. Mixed communities were the last strands of the chord holding Iraq together. Without the countervailing force of these mixed neighborhoods there is nothing to slow the rapid acceleration of sectarian strife.
Into the imbroglio enter the United States. We have not too subtly asked the Iraqi Prime Minister to step down. Washington Post is reporting today that there are now calls from within Iraq for the Prime Minister to step down. The United States may unfortunately get its wish here. It is unfortunate because al-Jaafari’s likely replacement will be Adel Abdul Mahdi. Abdul Mahdi is the candidate backed directly by SCIRI (Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq). I think the name of the organization speaks for itself. Incidentally, the Badr Brigade, the militia blamed for a large number of the killings, is the military wing of SCIRI.
The pushing aside of al-Jaafari, with the backing of the United States, will further de-legitimize the Iraqi Government. It will certainly give no comfort to the Sunni minority to see the U.S., however inadvertently, offering support to SCIRI. Further compounding the problem is the large-scale infiltration of the Iraqi police and army by the Badr Brigade and Mahdi Army militias. Of these police forces, GlobalSecurity.org reports that the U.S. Army General in charge of security in Baghdad, General James Thurman, said this week:
Iraqi troops and police units are more and more often taking the lead in counter-insurgency operations in Baghdad and the three provinces to the south that come under his responsibility. He also says more Iraqis are calling a special phone number to report insurgent activity. He says there have been more than 3,000 such calls since January, and that most of them have resulted in military operations that found insurgents, criminals or weapons caches.
The paradox is what looks like progress in training the Iraqi police and military is in fact resulting in these forces creating the very instability we are training them to control. We have, like it or not, taken sides in this civil war. Our stated objective is to stay out of any civil war that may be occurring or may occur in the future. But, the reality is that you cannot have a 138,000 strong army sitting on its hands while a civil war rages all around. The logic of the situation will force the United States to choose one side over another (consider the examples of Lebanon or Somalia).
What then will be the role of the U.S. military in Iraq with civil war breaking out all around them? There is no viable role for the military in Iraq that does not entail a long-term entanglement in the conflict – with the outcome decidedly uncertain. It is time, then, to withdraw our troops in some sort of orderly fashion. Very little further damage to our credibility will result from a quick withdrawal. Our three years in Iraq have damaged our credibility to levels below which it is unlikely to go.
I think the Iraqi conflict train has already left the station. We are left only with trying to affect a quick resolution of the civil war. This does not require a military presence, and in fact, a military presence might hinder any such progress for reasons mentioned above. Our goal from this point should and must be to try to work to ease tensions within Iraq and to work with Iraq’s neighbors to contain the conflict within Iraq’s borders.
It is not an attractive proposition, but we are where we are.
This entry was posted in Foreign Policy, Iraq, Politics, Society. Bookmark the permalink.
5 Responses to Disintegration in Iraq – A Call For Withdrawal
MediaFreeze says:
The thing that caught my eye last week was the early reports of people on the move. People fleeing their homes can not be good.
The next stage in the Battle of Baghdad will likely be the building of barricades.
This is civil war.
With the US raining in airstrikes on one faction or the other. Maybe on both.
[crossposted from dKos]
EightNyland says:
I might further add, our true reasons for being there do not dictate we withdraw, however much sense it would make in light of the stated facts. If we are to look at what has transpired over the past three years, rather than listen to the “reasons” proffered by the Bush administration, we would see clearly that things in Iraq are going according to plan. Perhaps not according to the best hopes of the Neo-Conmen, but certainly in a way that is acceptable to them.
That is why Rumsfeld still has a job, despite what seems to be an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that he is totally incompetent. By their thinking, his actions are still within the bounds of what is acceptable in our occupation. Failing to protect the Iraqis after three years is acceptable. Failing to rebuild the infrastructure after three years is acceptable. Failing to quell the insurgency after three years is acceptable. Failing to seal the borders after three years is acceptable. Failing to provide for our service people is acceptable, and the list goes on and on and on.
So, in light of the facts I’ve just stated, your “reasons” for leaving Iraq, while I might be in complete agreement with them, are not nearly sufficient reason to this administration. Because their true agenda is not their stated agenda. Their true goals are not their stated goals. Therefore, how ever well reasoned your argument for withdrawal is, it changes nothing whatsoever in their minds, and so will lead to no such action.
Our “rationales”, however cogently offered, cannot even be considered by the White House, because our rationales, while they may be best for Americans, and they would certainly be best for the Iraqis, do not serve the true agenda of George Bush.
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Van11 says:
Pingback: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying » Blaming The Iraqis
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DEA Administrator Chief Michele Leonhart Expected to Resign
Resignation Comes as DEA at Center of Series of Scandals in its Effort to Continue Failed War on Drugs
After Decades of Mass Incarceration, Racial Disparities, and Failed Drug Policies, DEA Finally Facing Scrutiny
New DPA Issue Brief Released Today: The Scandal-Ridden DEA: Everything You Need to Know
<h2 class="subtitle">
Contact:</h2>
<p>Tony Newman 646-335-5384<br />
Bill Piper 202-669-6430</p>
A senior White House official has said that the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Michele Leonhart, is expected to resign soon. The news comes as no surprise to drug policy reformers who say her opposition to reform made her out of step with the Obama Administration.
“Leonhart’s DEA reflects an outdated, disastrous approach that President Obama claims he wants to leave behind,” said Bill Piper, director of national affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance. “If she leaves he has an opportunity to appoint someone who will overhaul the DEA and support drug policy reform.”
The federal Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) has existed for more than 40 years, but little attention has been given to the role the agency has played in fueling mass incarceration, racial disparities and other drug war problems. Congress has rarely scrutinized the agency, its actions or its budget, instead deferring to DEA Administrators on how best to deal with drug-related issues. That changed, however, in part because of all the scandals and corruption that have occurred under DEA Administrator Michele Leonhart.
To provide context for Leonhart’s resignation, DPA is releasing a new issue brief today, The Scandal-Ridden DEA: Everything You Need to Know, which includes recommendations for fundamental reforms of the DEA.
According to a recently released Justice Department report, several DEA agents (some with top secret clearances) allegedly participated in multiple orgies with hired sex workers "funded by the local drug cartels" in Colombia. Some also received money, gifts and weapons from these traffickers. The parties occurred at the agents' "government-leased quarters", where laptops and other equipment were accessible – raising "the possibility that DEA equipment and information also may have been compromised as a result of the agents' conduct." The report also found that the DEA obstructed the investigations into this and other scandals.
After Leonhart’s horrible performance in Congress during a hearing focused on the sex scandal the House Oversight Committee issued a bipartisan statement of “no confidence” in her leadership. Leonhart was widely panned and her answers deemed inadequate during testimony on her agency’s handling of sexual harassment and misconduct allegations. When asked by reporters the White House declined to offer a vote of confidence in Leonhart. In fact, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said that President Obama is concerned by "troubling details" about the Colombia scandal and the DEA's response to it.
The call to dismiss Leonhart came against a backdrop of scandals and incompetence at the DEA, which have dominated Leonhart’s tenure. A Drug Policy Alliance petition to President Obama calling for Leonhart to be fired garnered almost 11,000 signatures in a week.
Some of the more egregious incidents during Leonhart’s tenure include:
The Department of Justice’s Office of the Inspector General currently has six open investigations into numerous DEA scandals, including the massacre of civilians in Honduras, the use of NSA data to both spy on virtually all Americans and to systematically fabricate evidence, and controversial uses of confidential informants.
A series of recent investigations by USA Today found that the DEA has been tracking billions of U.S. phone calls without warrants or even suspicion of wrong-doing, an operation copied by the NSA and other agencies after 9/11. The DEA built the modern surveillance state.
DEA Administrator Michele Leonhart herself has been at the center of several scandals, including the House of Death scandal in which the DEA may have turned a blind eye to torture and murder, and the Andrew Chambers scandal, in which the DEA rehired a confidential informant with a history of lying.
DEA conflicts with Obama administration policy. Last year, Leonhart publicly rebuked President Obama for admitting that marijuana is as safe as alcohol, told members of Congress that the DEA will continue to go after marijuana even in states where it is legal despite DOJ guidance stating otherwise, and spoke out against bipartisan drug sentencing reform in Congress that the Obama administration is supporting.
Last May, The DEA created a political firestorm this week when it seized seeds bound for a Kentucky hemp research program that was approved by Congress. Then Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) called the incident “an outrage” and the Kentucky Agriculture Department sued the DEA.
The DEA’s refusal to acknowledge science. DEA Administrator Michele Leonhart has on several occasions ignored science and overruled the DEA’s own administrative law judges on medical issues relating to marijuana. In a bizarre 2012 debate with members of Congress Leonhart refused repeatedly to acknowledge that marijuana is safer than cocaine and heroin.
Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN) and Rep. Jared Polis (D-CO) have previously called on Leonhart to resign, with Polis commenting that he "found her to be completely incompetent and unknowledgeable." The Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) said last week, "It's time for her to go…I don't have confidence in her, nor does the majority of the committee." He went on to say that if Leonhart does not step down, then President Obama should fire her.
“The DEA is a large, expensive, scandal-prone bureaucracy that has failed to reduce drug-related problems,” said Piper. “Drug use should be treated as a health issue instead of a criminal justice issue; with states legalizing marijuana and adopting other drug policy reforms it is time to ask if the agency is even needed anymore.”
Rethinking the "Drug Dealer"
DPA Podcast Episode 28: Joe Rubin Taught Safety First in His Health Classes: Here’s What He Thought
DPA Podcast Episode 27: Safety First: Drug Education 101 with Sasha Simon
DPA Statement on Introduction of New Mexico Cannabis Legalization Bill
Joint Statement from DPA, LatinoJustice & ILRC - New Study: Deportation or Detainment of Friends & Family Strongly Associated with Increased Incidence of Substance Use Disorder Among US Citizen Latinx Populations
Statement from Drug Policy Alliance’s Kassandra Frederique: New York Can Set National Example for Cannabis Reform
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Sunset Beach Pete Gallagher
a native of Ft. Lauderdale who grew up in Cocoa/Rockledge and has lived in St. Petersburg since 1974, has been writing songs and singing about Florida for more than 35 years. An award-winning journalist and freelance writer, Pete has been involved in Florida preservation pursuits since he graduated from the University of Florida in 1972. From his landmark Vanishing Florida column in the St. Petersburg Times to his investigative work that freed migrant farm-worker James Richardson from jail (after being wrongfully convicted for murdering his seven children) to his work exposing the tragedy of Rosewood,
the plight of the endangered Florida Panther, and his expose on unethical state government permitting and variance capers that allowed the destruction of the world’s oldest aboriginal canoes (for the Seminole Indian Tribune), he has consistently fought for truth and sanity in Florida environmental and cultural issues. He spent 15 years working for Chief Jim Billie at the Seminole Tribe of Florida, directing Tribal communications and producing large-scale entertainment events (including the Discover Native America powwow series, the Fire On The Swamp country music fests and the Phish NYE 2000 show which drew 100,000 folks to the Big Cypress cattle pasture on the millennium. ◙ Pete has appeared at the Florida Folk Festival each year since 1972, most of that time as a member of the original Green Grass Revival (Florida bluegrass/folk band) and as a duo with longtime partner Pat Barmore. ◙ Pete has released seven albums, the legendary Live At Tampa Theatre LP with Green Grass in 1979, Florida Folk Music I, Florida Folk Music II and Dog Peter Gnats (with Raiford Starke), Songs of Florida, with Kelly Green of Live Oak, Live In Florida (with Pat Barmore) and Orange Blossom Special (with the Green Grass Boys) Pete’s music combines humor (Dog Peter Gnats, Dog Paw Tea) and pathos (The Old Rope Swing, Tamiami Trail, Suwannee River 2023) with intuitive looks at Florida characters (Tom Gaskins, Scott Howard, Don Grooms) and places (Chokoloskee, Girl From Immokalee {co-written with R. Starke]) everything presented with a pro-Florida environmental theme. ◙ Pete was the winner of the first Will McLean Poetry Contest, and is a two-time winner in the Live-Arts Peninsula Foundation’s “Floridian” songwriting contest. ◙ From 1981 until 1991, he managed the comeback career of blues singer Mary Smith McClain and was the writer/producer on a short film of her life called “Diamond Teeth Mary.” ◙ He is currently host of the Florida Folk Show (Thursdays 9-10 a.m. on WMNF 88.5 FM Community Radio Tampa Bay) and co-host (with Pat Barmore) of two Florida Folk Music Songwriter’s Showcase Nights: Thursdays 6-10pm at the Sloppy Pelican on Blind Pass, St. Pete Beach ; and Tuesdays 7-10pm at Kojak’s Ribhouse in Palmetto. ◙ Pete is a voting member of the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences and has been the executive producer on three nationally-released (Grammy nominated) CDs. ◙ Pete is a member of three musical acts: Dog Peter Pat (duo with songwriter Pat Barmore), Green Grass Boys (with Elan Chalford, T.C. Carr & Raiford Starke) and the Green Grass Revival (with Sandra Jemison, Elan Chalford, Jack Piccalo, Joe Smith and Foster Barnes). Pete performs in two themed shows for the Florida Humanities Council and other organizations: a “Tribute to The Florida Fiddler” with Florida state fiddle champ Elan Chalford and “Florida Songs” (with Pat Barmore), which employs Florida music to both educate special audiences about Florida history and present a case for Florida cultural, environmental and artistic preservation. ◙ In May, 2010, Pete was awarded the Stetson Kennedy Foundation’s "Fellow Man & Mother Earth" Award, which recognizes performers and composers whose lives and works have reflected their concern for the environment or human rights and traditional culture. You can contact Pete at pgallag2@tampabay.rr.com or 727-510-5474.
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Review: Demonic Symphony - The Awakening (2004)
Demonic Symphony [ Website | MySpace ]
The historic German city of Mainz is home to Demonic Symphony, an up-and-coming melodic metal band that incorporates a significant amount of lightless atmosphere into their style. Having chosen a name that evokes an impression of bleak, icy metal with symphonic elements, the band actually only briefly resembles their moniker. Instead, they treat their listeners to catchy, hook-heavy metal akin to bands such as Whitesnake, Dio, and mid-'80s Heart.
The Awakening, which is the second demo from Demonic Symphony, kicks off with the very catchy "I Owe You Pain". Keyboards play a crucial role in the band's sound, but they are interwoven in such a way as to avoid being distracting or overpowering. On the leadoff track they provide not only a lush atmosphere, but lend to it a bit of a Middle Eastern sound as well. Frontwoman Darlana, who's vocal style resembles in many ways both Lita Ford and Doro Pesch, has a powerful voice and delivers the lyrics with plenty of punch. Her slight accent enhances the Gothic ambiance of the music, adding yet another layer to an already deep composition. "Down On The Road", my favorite track on the demo, draws on the band's '80s influences to give the song a familiar feel while keeping it from sounding dated. The majority of guitarist Tommy Gad's solos on The Awakening are crisp and brief, though well-played. Here, however, Tommy lets loose with a top-notch extended solo that is backed up by some groovy bass lines from Darlana. Definitely one of the high points of the demo. The title track, closing out the demo, is the most Gothic of the disc and finds the bands drifting closest to the image created by their name. Cheerless church bells open the track and give way to blistering riffs from Tommy, to which he sings in a processed voice that sounds nothing short of demonic. Darlana adds only occasional backing vocals on this track, her voice lending a soft melody to contrast with Tommy's growls. An up-tempo burner, "The Awakening" is one of the top tracks on the demo and leaves the listener yearning for more from this young band.
Demonic Symphony relies on exuberant keyboards, chunky riffs, heavy bass, and Darlana's distinctive voice to create their brand of Gothic melodic metal. They've succeeded on all fronts with The Awakening. Fans of this genre of metal will enjoy this demo, and I'm sure the band's next effort as well.
1 I Owe You Pain 4:36
2 Life's a Bitch ... 5:44
3 Down on the Road 5:36
4 Roar with the Thunder 3:20
5 The Awakening 4:40
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Posted by Dave at 2:22 PM
Labels: 2004, Demonic Symphony, Germany, Gothic metal
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Review: Glen Drover - Metalusion
Review: Lord Volture - Never Cry Wolf (2011)
Interview: Devallia of Bloody Hammers
Interview: Andrea Weiss of Black Daffodils
Review: Surgeon - Chemical Reign (2013)
Review: Forefather - Engla Tocyme (2002)
Review: Overloaded - Hail The Kingdom (2005)
Interview: Desislava Hristova of Chains
Review: 7th Moon - Alter Alma (2002)
Review: Destination's Calling - Mastery of the Light (2001)
Review: Fast Taker - Fast Taker (2005)
Chroniclers of Steel
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Heavy Metal Addiction
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Occult Rock Magazine
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Meditation and Heart Health
Updated:May 2,2017
Lower stress, cardiovascular disease risk by meditating.
Taking a few minutes to relax each day could help you lower your risks of cardiovascular disease.
Meditation is a practice — often using deep breathing, quiet contemplation or sustained focus on something benign, such as a color, phrase or sound — that helps you let go of stress and feel peaceful and maintain a relaxed state of mind.
“Think of it as a 20- or 30-minute vacation from the stress in your life,” said Richard A. Stein, professor of medicine and director of the exercise and nutrition program at New York University’s Center for Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease.
Stress is your body’s natural alarm system. It releases a hormone called adrenaline that causes your breathing to quicken, and your heart rate and blood pressure to rise.
But that “fight or flight” response can take a toll on your body if it’s sustained over a long time.“When we were cavemen, that adrenaline helped us be ready if a tiger was going to attack,” Dr. Stein said. “Today, all the tigers are in our heads.”
For people with cardiovascular disease, meditation provides a technique for reducing stress and focusing on things they can do to be healthier, Dr. Stein said. “Meditation is a way of allowing you to come to balance in your life,” Dr. Stein said. “It can also help you to sleep better, which is a very important restorative part of physical health.”
Recent studies have offered promising results about the impact of meditation in reducing blood pressure. A 2012 study showed African-Americans with heart disease who practiced Transcendental Meditation regularly were 48 percent less likely to have a heart attack or stroke or die compared with African-Americans who attended a health education class over more than five years.
Find the Method That Works for You
There are countless types of meditation, so it’s important to find an approach that you feel comfortable with, Dr. Stein said.
“Find what works for you,” Dr. Stein said. “Maybe it’s just listening to your favorite music while you walk at a moderate pace.”
Dr. Stein encourages his patients to find local classes on meditation to get started, get recommendations from friends or read books on different forms.
Transcendental meditation is a technique that allows your mind to focus inward, maintaining alertness to other thoughts or sensations without allowing them to interfere. It’s done seated with your eyes closed for 20 minutes, twice a day.
Mindful mediation may use sound or touch, for example the ringing of a bell, chanting, beads or a simple object to help the mind to focus. Relaxation response meditation uses a single word to focus on.
Not all mediation is done sitting down with your legs crossed like many people believe. For example, tai chi, also called “moving meditation,” incorporates gentle movements that require deep concentration and balance. Yoga is an ancient practice of stretching and breathing used to prepare the body for long periods of meditation.
Prayer can also be a form of mediation, Dr. Stein said.
While meditation can offer a technique for lowering stress, and your risk for heart disease, Dr. Stein said it can’t replace other important lifestyle changes like eating healthier, losing or managing weight, reducing salt or getting regular physical activity. It’s also not a substitute for any medication your doctor may have prescribed as part of your treatment plan.
“Meditation should be an adjunct to prescribed medications and dietary and exercise programs, not a replacement,” Dr. Stein said.
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Indian Islands Tours
Havelock Island Tour
Duration: 4 Nights 5 Days
Experience the most loved water adventures in Havelock. Havelock has been enriched with incredible beaches that further offer the most thrilling water activities at the backdrop of bewitching [...]
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Andaman & Nicobar Holidays
Embrace the enchanting creations of nature in one of the world’s best island destinations - Andamans - where the marine life prevails with their most alluring forms, where the sun shines [...]
Lakshadweep Island Tour
Explore the most exotic charm of the glorious marine world of Lakshadweep. The angelic island is enriched with natural opulence and a nautical world distinct from ours. The marine life comprises some [...]
Lakshadweep Coral Reef Tour
Lakshadweep is the most spectacular group of islands that are poised elegantly over the profound Arabian Sea. It is one of the most spectacular islands that the planet comprises. This exotic cluster of island [...]
India is an exclusive nation in terms of tourist wonders. The nation has been replete with incredible as well as diverse attractions. The range of attractions goes way beyond, from snow-capped peaks to pristine beaches, indolently stretched deserts to evergreen woods. India does not limit itself to these natural allurements. It even comprises one of the glorious natural wonders – the islands. India is a proud habitat to two spectacular islands: Andaman & Nicobar Islands and Lakshadweep.
India has been beautifully fringed with water at the southern section. Three edges in the southern region of India have been drenched with tropical beauty and marine life. With such opulence of water life, India boasts its exotic islands. The marine world of these islands is utterly distinct from ours. Nowhere else one can find such profoundness of nature. People from across the world visit the inexplicable beauty of India’s islands. The natural splendor that India comprises in the form of its islands is just incomparable.
Andaman and Nicobar islands: Andaman and Nicobar islands affirms to be the tropical paradise on earth that takes the travelers to a distinct world away from the busy lives. These are known to be some of the most incredible islands of the world that are elegantly poised amidst the south-eastern part of the Bay of Bengal. It exquisitely forms a splendid group of 572 bewitching islands that showcases sheer splendor of nature.
Andaman with its inexplicable charm has been considered as a replica of the Garden of Eden. It affirms to be a naturalist heaven with all the untouched glories of nature. The best part of these glorious islands lies in the silvery beaches that flourish incredible marine life. The aqua life of this island has been enriched with rarest of the rare species. It comprises sheer excellence of nature with artistic pieces of corals and incredible under water foliage that adorns the sea world. The rain forests in the island are adorned with fascinating lime stone caves that constantly drips sweet water. The vista looks eternal. A nature trek is a perfect way to explore the eternal charm of these rain forests. Water sports are also enjoyed here. The water of the ocean seems perfect to enjoy the adventurous water activities like scuba diving, swimming, coral watching and much more.
Lakshadweep: Lakshadweep is yet another incredible piece of land that is replete with bewitching natural charm. Lakshadweep constitutes of 36 small islands that are naturally designed over the water to beautify the Arabian Sea. This group of island stretches itself at an area of 32 Sq. Kilometers. Not only that, the island has been exquisitely fringed with 4200 sq. Kilometers of lagoon. Visiting this island is a treat to the eyes. The island has been bestowed with such extremities of nature that mere landing on this island would be enough to have the best experience of your life. The island has some amazingly virgin beaches beautifully fringed by the swaying palms. The fluctuating turquoise water perfectly complements the white glistening sand.
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ARRIVE ADULTS
DEPART CHILDRENS
Speed and intensity in water and asphalt
SCENIC ATRACTIONS
Casa Bruce
Caseta Mora
Villa Portella
Casa Tortosa
SantaElena
Llebeig
Year after year, Valencia becomes the stage for the highlighted sports events of the international scene.
Valencia will issue the 33rd edition of the America's Cup 2009. Valencia, in the view of the organizers, brings together the best conditions of winds and sea state, in addition to be a vibrant city endowed with the necessary infrastructure for the holding of this nautical event. The conclusion of the 33rd America's Cup represents the consolidation of Valencia as a city opened to the Mediterranean and with the most modern infrastructure for the nautical tourism.
Valencia welcomes, from 2008, the European Grand Prix in Valencia Street Circuit, a spectacular street circuit that opens Valencia to the sea. This event is scheduled to be held in the capital of the Comunitat Valenciana during at least seven years.
Valencia's Circuit is located in Cheste, at 20 km West of the city of Valencia. The circuit has presented its timetable of the season 2009 with 13 weekends of competition in which they emphasize three world championships: Superbikes, on the 15th of April; WTCC and Formula 2, on May the 31st and the Grand Prix de la Comunidad Valenciana which it will close the World Motorcycling Prize on November the 8th .
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AVENIDA FRANCISCO CERDÁ 49 BAJO - 46870 ONTINYENT-VALENCIA-SPAIN / TEL. 670 416 995 - FAX. 96 238 75 84 / Nº REGISTRO CONSELLERÍA DE TURISMO DE VALENCIA EG-189-V By Coodex
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Home > Editorial > The Imposture
The Sorbonne in a State of Shock Following Police Assault France: One Million Demonstrate Against “First Job Contracts” for Youths The Price of the Alternative Media Is the donkey the voter? A Hellish Life awaiting Immigrants to France The role of historians is not the validation of social values Europe: liberal offensive shakes but holds Indispensable Laicism A colonialist offensive and The "benefits" of colonialism History’s Revanchists Reflections about Emergent Knowledge The Enigma of Emergence
About Austerity, read also
Budget. Michel Sapin wants to make security rhyme with austerity 100,000 protest against austerity in Brussels The capitalist reality is worse than its caricature... With Syriza the Greek People Can Revive Hope In Europe Hollande and the EU : Downright Capitulation, No Renegotiation Retirement: According to Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault, French Will Have to Make an Effort The German Model Is Breaking Down Greece: "Stop! We can’t take any more" This is how the Greeks are living The Markets Place New Dragons at the ECB Moody’s And Sarkozy Portuguese March Against the IMF Aggression
About Nicolas Sarkozy, read also
White-Collar Crime : The Criminal Was In the Cabinet! The French Government’s “Golden Rule”: Will the Socialist Party Fall into the Trap?
Death of Henry CRAPO AMHACH Condoleances Henry Crapo is no longer with us! Who is behind Hong Kong Protests? 习近平同志，法国欢迎你！ Élysée. Macron Wants to Bill the Community Instead of the CAC 40 National Assembly. André Chassaigne: "We Are Living a Historical Moment" The Left will also be in the Street, on Saturday "THE PCF MUST WIN BACK HEARTS AND MINDS"... André Chassaigne: "We must stop the Spiral of Effacement of the PCF THE TIME FOR ECO-COMMUNISM Macron wrecks a Communist Party proposal on Europe Hidden behind the “we are all entrepreneurs”
ORIGINAL FRENCH ARTICLE: L’imposture
by Jean-Paul Piérot
The Imposture
Translated Thursday 10 November 2011, by Isabelle Métral and reviewed by Bill Scoble
The austerity plan presented yesterday [1] by François Fillon, the French prime minister, constitutes a further stage in the enterprise of social destruction that has been wrought since the beginning of president Sarkozy’s term of office in 2007. Familiar as those deceptive ploys have become, as has the dramatic staging of their delusive announcements, the enormity of the manoeuvre to which the completely discredited government just now resorts leaves one flabbergasted.
Short of being able to persuade the lower or lower-middle-class electors to whom he owes his victory in the presidential election - “I stand for purchasing power”, “work harder and earn more” - Nicolas Sarkozy thinks he has struck a note of fear that will enable him to evade the doom that awaits him in the polls. The Greek Crisis serves as a threat brandished against the social movement. “The word ‘bankruptcy’ is no vain word,” François Fillon deliberately warned, somewhat imprudently at that, since the remark exposes the team that has presided over France’s destiny for the last five years to the risk of being blamed by the better informed of our citizens for bringing down this dire prospect upon us. The French sovereign debt is inordinate? The deficit unacceptable? But who is to blame for the inadequacy of the public revenue if not those who under Sarkozy’s leadership have multiplied fiscal exemptions for the benefit of the richest and spread the cost of their largess on the rest of society through cuts in the social benefits.
This short-sighted policy has largely contributed to hampering growth, and hardly justifies Fillon’s prescribing “the acceleration of our efforts”. This headlong rush towards yet more austerity will push France down into a deadly spiral. The austerity plans stifle consumption and call for more austerity plans in the future. The scenario the Government is unrolling is very similar to the Greek scenario, only to a lesser degree, even though Nicolas Sarkozy is presented as the man who allegedly wants “to protect French people from the serious difficulties several European countries are labouring under.” What nerve!
The aggravation of the pension reform is sure to postpone the retiring age for salaried workers born between 1952 and 1956 and push up the unemployment rate for young people looking for jobs. The upgrading of benefits proportionately to the growth rate instead of the cost of living means that child benefits will increase by half the expected rate in 2012. The rise in the the lower VAT rate to 7% from 5.5% will cost low-income workers as much as billionaires. Likewise the uncoupling of the income tax from inflation will result in an undifferentiated increase in the tax pressure. The new cuts in public expenses and health care will be felt first and foremost by low-income families. Parallel to this, the “exceptional” rise in the tax on large companies and in the fixed levy on dividends, supposed to offset these dispositions, seem merely appetizers when compared to the extravagant bill footed by labour for these liberalities.
What cannot be denied is this government’s stubbornness. François Fillon slipped an ominous sentence into his speech: “Our growth model must be redefined: it has become unsustainable after being too long fuelled by consumption - itself stoked up by social benefits.” This is a major confession. Five years ago Denis Kessler, then at the head of the bosses’ association, hailed Nicolas Sarkozy’s election as the opportunity to give up the platform of the Resistance’s National Committee…Nicolas Sarkozy has not disappointed that component of the Right on this point!
[1] Monday, November 7.
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Proposed Regulations Extend Bank Secrecy Act to U.S. Postal Service The U.S. Department of Treasury has proposed regulations to extend the Bank Secrecy Act (hereinafter "BSA") reporting to cash purchases of postal money orders. Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Bank Secrecy
U.S. Supreme Court Grants Cert on Consent Directive on Grand Jury Targets Having Foreign Bank Accounts The United States Supreme Court has granted certiorari to hear the case of Doe v. United States. This case has significance for practitioners concerned with international enforcement law because it... Dan Cohen 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Banking Supervision
Final Bank Secrecy Act Rule Authorizes Disclosure of Information to States In a final rule, effective October 22, 1987, Treasury has clarified the regulation authorizing the disclosure of report information to the U.S. Congress consistent with the purposes of the Bank... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Bank Secrecy
Der Zivilprozess in Den Vereinigten Staaten by Lange and Black This practitioner's guide to U.S. civil procedure is highly recommended to common law lawyers serving clients in German speaking civil law nations to overcome misunderstandings in procedural... Clemens J.M. Kochinke 3 10 1987-10-01 United States International Law
Treasury Institutes a Ruling System for the Bank Secrecy Act In a measure designated to facilitate understanding of and compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act (hereinafter "BSA") and regulations, the Office of the Assistant Secretary (Enforcement), U.S. Treasury... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Bank Secrecy
Trademark Law, A Practitioner's Guide by Siegrud D. Kane This guide is true to its name. It is a clear and concise blueprint of an effective trademark management program. In addition to introducing the reader to basics and providing proven hands-on... Clemens J.M. Kochinke 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Trade Enforcement
CARICOM Begins Program to Cooperate on Regional Enforcement On September 2-4, the representatives of the thirteen member Caribbean Common Market and Community (CARICOM) and Suriname met and discussed a joint approach to reduce the supply and use of illicit... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 Caribbean Drug Enforcement
U.S. To Cut Bolivian Aid Because of Problems of Narcotics Cooperation The State Department announced at the end of September that it will cut off $8.7 million in aid to Bolivia because the government was not doing enough to eradicate the coca crop which ultimately is... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Drug Enforcement
U.S.-Dominica Conclude Tax Information Exchange Agreement On October 1, 1987, Dominica and the U.S. concluded a tax information exchange agreement. The agreement makes Dominica eligible for financing under Section 936 of the Internal Revenue Code, serving... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 Dominica Taxation
IRS Appoints Donald Berghem Deputy Assistant Commissioner for International On October 7, 1987, the Internal Revenue Service in an information release announced the appointment of Donald Bergherm, assistant regional Internal Revenue Service Commissioner for Examniation for... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 United States Tax Enforcement
OECD Convention on Mutual Assistance Opened for Signature While ICC and Others Oppose Its Ratification On October 8, 1987, the Council of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) agreed to open the OECD draft Convention for Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax Matters for... Bruce Zagaris 3 10 1987-10-01 World Mutual Legal Assistance
Austrian-U.S. Cooperation in Export Control Enforcement Enhanced On several occasions, Austrian companies have been the target of investigations of possible export control violations because Austria has been assumed to form a suitable corridor for diversions of U.... Clemens J.M. Kochinke 3 10 1987-10-01 Austria Export Enforcement
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You are at:Home»Features»Culture vultures
POP Montreal © Jean Philippe Sansfaçon
Culture vultures
By Maria Roberts on October 17, 2019  Analysis Features, Interviews
POP Montreal’s 2019 edition ran from 25-29 September. Jozef Spiteri, director of brand partnerships, discusses leveraging the festival’s influences with youth-orientated businesses – including a legal cannabis brand. Maria Roberts reports.
A not-for-profit entity, POP Montreal’s latest edition saw icons like Laurie Anderson performing alongside newly-discovered talent like Yung Baby Tate, Safia Nolin and Anemone. The multidisciplinary festival was started in 2001 by co-founders Daniel Seligman, Noelle Sorbara and Peter Rowan, who were geared up by their love of independent music and attraction to the uniqueness of working with new artists.
In its early days POP Montreal promoted the career of small band-turned global hit Arcade Fire, and from that point on really started to tap into the talent that was packed into Montréal. Other notable success stories are The Dears, Weyes Blood, and The Barr Brothers.
As a non-venue specific festival, events take place in 50 or so places around the city. And the festival’s cool and dynamic edge leads to plenty of opportunities to link with companies that you might not necessarily find associated with an arts organisation. As director of brand partnerships for POP Montreal, Jozef Spiteri ensures the festival is a “trampoline” for both new artists and new businesses, giving them the bounce to reach a culture-hungry audience.
“Being a not-for-profit is the vision of our founders,” he tells me over the phone from Québec. Unlike a for-profit we have the capacity to take risks, so we can listen to what our audience want and take chances on new talent. We’re also able to easily programme with gender parity, for this edition we came out 40/40 male and female and 20% mixed headliners.”
Much of the programme at POP Montreal is built from an open submission process: out of 1,500 submissions they present some 200-300 acts at each edition. This means that if you are doing something interesting, there is a likelihood you can get a spot on the programme (while appearances are paid, POP offers support for public funding and sponsorship and provides foresight to artists in view of what they may need).
Says Spiteri: “We are famed for putting these big names in little venues and booking these little names on the schedule just in time for them to blow up – and then really giving them creative support to succeed.
“Of these new names to make it onto the programme, three to five from the submission pool will be asked to join the newly-formed POP Export programme, they will be taken to South by Southwest (SXSW, Texas) and to showcases in Europe and South America. [The names will be announced after the festival.] This is a way to propel bands and their work internationally. Likewise, the professional delegate programme at POP Montreal brings in buyers and record labels to mingle and develop links with the Montréal community and visiting artists.”
One of the advantages of being a festival dedicated to new talent is that it allows for Spiteri to build some very unique brand partnerships that connect with a youthful demographic.
“That means that we have discussions around what their goals are how we can work with them to achieve those goals – how do we make both brands live together according to the POP Montreal voice and theirs? I’m always towing the line between the weird Montréal AI community and the weird LA music start-up community. And at the same time, we have trendsetters and fashion people who are a very in-the-know audience and lifestyle plaudits.
Leif Vollebekk performs at POP Montreal © Jean Philippe Sansfaçon
“The whole alcohol industry is very interesting for a festival like ours,” he adds. “We have partnerships that have been with us from our first edition, St-Ambroise Beers has been a partner for the past 18 years. We also welcome partners who are looking to amplify their brands for the duration of the festival.”
In Canada and Québec cannabis is legalised, which has made for some very interesting challenges from a business and legal perspective.
“I have to be aware of multiple industries and how they impact our culture and understand the positioning and what is the best for them and for us at the same time. Cannabis has been a really interesting example, how do you communicate a product when you don’t know if the person consumes it?
“Ahead of legalisation, one of the leading cannabis brands came to POP Montreal to establish themselves as a hub of culture at the forefront of their industry. The goal was to connect with the festival audience by designing immersive experiences in the festival hub that attracted not only the festival-goers but allowed for discussion around professional development within POP Montréal’s Symposium.”
POP Montreal has also developed a partnership with hip footwear brand Little Burgundy.
“They wanted to push their mission of supporting arts and culture to a new generation of culture-curious Canadians. POP Montreal flexed its network to pull together a diverse set of influential talents, collaborating on a next-level experience that combined music, immersive art and photo-optimised event moments.”
From a branding perspective, what sums up their ethos at POP Montreal? “These collaborations continue to create meaningful experiences for the festival’s attendees with a lasting impression and a measurable ROI,” says Spiteri. “We believe in collaborating with inspiring businesses, who are driven by community, curiosity and discovery.”
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Tag: Hixson
Kingston Cricket Ground, with pavillion, to the south of the village, on the site of the former Rope Factory
In his book ‘Odds and Ends from My Century’ (1992), Bob Dorey wrote:
Kingston had cricket teams. The Earl had his own team, including, of course, the Vicar, who had been a Cambridge Blue, and other local gentry; the Earl also took the four best of the village lads to play in his team.
There was also a village team. Twice during the summer they would play the Earl’s team, once “at home” for the Earl on his well kept pitch out on Steart Field (above “London Doors”) and once on the village pitch up in “Rope Walk” (a field at the top of South Street, … the site of a rope-making works in earlier times). Traditionally refreshments at half time were provided by the Earl, as was a roller to keep the pitches in good order.
As a young man, a little while after coming back from the war, I found myself Secretary trying to restart the Cricket Club. The Earl, and his Team, had gone; so had the roller.
Former Vicar, the Rev. F.S. Horan commented in his book ‘From the Crack of the Pistol’:
The Kingston Cricket Club was quite a going concern. A certain Ernest Hixson was Captain – a tricky left-hand bowler; and we had a redoubtable demon bowler in one of the Dorey family – Arthur. With a long run and a hop, skip and jump, he would deliver a ball calculated, on a rough village wicket, to strike terror into the most intrpid bastsman.
Ken Orchard (son of Charley Orchard and Mrs. Orchard the postmistress) was our champion heavy-weight slogger. He used to stride up to the wicket with his bat over his shoulder, a braod assured grin on his face – a Hercules, but for the leopard skin. Fielders fell back – he took his centre – and then with every ball bowled it was “six” or “out” with him. Ken certainly didn’t believe in slow cricket – he quickly brought any match to life. We had fixtures with most of the villages round and our Kingston boys generally gave a good account of themselves.
KINGSTON v. CORFE CASTLE
Played at Kingston on Saturday, and won by Corfe Castle by 32 runs. Scores:- Corfe, 66 (Major Woodhouse 20, Dr. Drury, not out, 18); Kingston, 34 (Jeffs 12). Loxton bowled well for the home side, and Savage and Beath for Corfe.
Western Gazette, 25 August 1922
1925 – WAREHAM AND DISTRICT LEAGUE
Played at Kingston on Saturday, and resulted in an easy win for the home team by 79 runs. Batting first Corfe Castle made a bad start, and lost five wickets for 28 runs, the total reaching 84 (Colonel Strange 31). The home team made a good reply, the first wicket putting on 35 runs, and the Corfe total was passed with five wickets in hand, the total eventually reaching 163, the last wicket putting on 38 runs (G. Travers 41, Loxton 22, Hixson 20). For Kingston Hunt took four wickets for 18 and Hixson three for 18. The most successful bowler for Corfe was the Rev. F. Corfield, with five for 49.
Western Gazette, 24 July 1925
1931 – DIVISION I.
CORFE CASTLE DEFEATED BY KINGSTON
By 47 runs (33-80) Kingston beat Corfe Castle on the latter’s ground. G. Travers (3-8), C. Dorey (4-12), and E. Hixson (3-11) were responsible for Corfe’s dismissal, whilst the chief scorers for the winners were W. Stickland (21), K. Orchard (18), Travers (12), and F. Cooper (10). Five Corfe bowlers shared the wickets – Stockley (2-5), Fooks (3-23), D. Cooper (2-16), P. Crofts (2-20), and K. Greenstock (1-10).
Western Gazette, 3 July 1931
Page last updated: 20 February 2016
Tagged Cooper, Cricket, Dorey, Hixson, Horan, Hunt, Loxston, Orchard, Stickland, Travers
The Hixson Family
By Kingston One-Place Study 04/01/2016 27/01/2017 Families
We’ve just added a new page dedicated to The Hixson Family who first lived at Encombe and later at West Street, Kingston.
Tagged Hixson
Albert ‘Ernest’ Hixson (1886-1962)
Ernest was one of eight children born to Swanage boatman Thomas Nicholas Hixson (1845-1922) and Mary Emma ‘Emma’ Hixson neé Farwell (1855-1911).
In 1909 Ernest was living in a furnished bedroom on the High Street, Swanage for which he paid rent of 6s. 6d. a week to his father Thomas whose address was given as 1 Seaside, Swanage. By 1911, Ernest aged 24 was back living in the family home then at Exeter House, Swanage. He was a solictor’s clerk. His mother was running a fancy goods business.
The following year, Ernest married Elsie Collins (1885-1957). Ernest and Elsie had four children (see later). In 1915, Ernie and Elsie were living at Dalkeith in Princess Road, Swanage. By 1918 they were living at Encombe and Ernest was working for the Encombe Estate. By 1921 the family were living in Kingston. Later on the family are known to have lived in the property on West Street, Kingston between the Forge and the Scott Arms (which now forms part of the Scott Arms).
Ernest gained quite a reputation on the cricket pitch and played for Kingston for many years. In an end of season match in 1932, when Wareham & District League champions Swanage took on the ‘Rest’ of the League, the report stated “but E. Hixson, a member of the Kingston Club, was almost unplayable, a fact which is borne out by his analysis, which shows eight wickets for ten runs”. In February 1935, Ernest was elected Vice-Chairman of the Wareham Cricket League (which included up to ten clubs in the wider area which extended as far as Poole, including Kingston, Corfe Castle and Swanage). Ernest was also Secretary of the Swanage Pier Company from at least 1931 to 1939. In 1938, Ernest was an eyewitness to the Fairy Swordfish crash at Polar Wood in which three RAF men were killed.
Elsie died in May 1957 aged 72 and was buried at Kingston on 29 May 1957. Later that year Ernest married Ellen Martha ‘Pat’ Ward (1889-1980). They lived in West Street. Ernest died on 30 April 1962 and Pat died in 1980.
Children of Ernest & Elsie:
1. William Gerald Hixson (1913-1983)
William was born at Swanage on 7 June 1913. In 1939 he married Helena May Werrey-Easterbrook (1920–2000). William and Helena had two daughters.
William and Helena. Photographs courtesy of Andrew Gibson.
2. Frank Arthur Hixson (1914-1982)
Frank was born at Swanage on 15 November 1914.
3. Douglas John ‘Jack’ Hixson (1920-1949)
Jack is believed to have been invalided during World War 2. He died at The Borough Sanitorium, Weymouth on 14 November 1949 aged 29. Jack was buried at Kingston on 19 November 1949. He is remembered on the World War 2 memorial plaque in Kingston New Church.
4. Kenneth ‘Ken’ Oswald Collins Hixson (1922-2007)
Ken was born on 1 November 1922. In 1950 he married Doreen H Hawkes. Ken and Doreen had one daughter and three grandchildren. Ken was Secretary of the Wareham & District Skittles League for 40 years. Ken died at Poole Hospital on 24 October 2007 aged 84.
Ken Hickson
William, Jack and Frank. Photographs courtesy of Andrew Gibson.
If you have any further information, memories, photographs etc. about the Hixson family then please get in touch with us.
Page last updated: 8 January 2016
1952: Recollections of a former vicar
By Kingston One-Place Study 01/07/1952 27/01/2017 Published Works
Extracts from ‘From the crack of the pistol‘ (published c. 1952) by F.S. Horan, Vicar of Kingston from 1932-1938:
Quot Homines, Tot Amici
I found my Chilton experience of a country parish a help at Kingston. Muriel and I soon got going and found plenty to do, visiting the cottages, the school and the distant farms, of which there were several.
“What are the special needs of this place?” was a question I asked myself. It had a rather pleasant feudal atmosphere about it. Nearly all the men worked on the Encombe Estate. The polite manners of an earlier generation had not quite died out. ‘Sir’, ‘Mam’, capping and even a curtsey from an aged inhabitant, lent a nice touch of dignity to everyday intercourse; yet there was a delightful sense of cameraderie in all our relationships. The children under the care of Miss Broad and Mrs Cottrell, in our village (church) school, which I visited regularly, rose politely and gave me a cheery chorus of welcome when I appeared. Muriel, as always, was my great help in a hundred ways. She took over the Sunday School, and it was everything to me to have her opinion on the various village problems which arose from time to time. She was quick to help in any emergency of sickness or trouble.
Our great stand-bys in the village were Mr. and Mrs. Tom Joyce, and Mr. Gerald Loxton.
Joyce was the village blacksmith – a pillar of the church, and one of the nicest, friendliest, staunchest men who ever stepped. His wife was as nice as he was, gentle and refined. She had been the village school mistress. They both knew the village inside out, and were wise and understanding. It was a great help to discuss with them any plans or alterations that one might have in mind.
Sir Ernest was the Vicar’s warden, and Gerald Loxton, the People’s warden. Gerald could see further through a brick wall than most people and had a delightful, dry, Dorset sense of humour. I was very fortunate in having such men as Joyce and Loxton. They are proofs of what wonderful help laymen can be in a parish.
They weren’t the only ones I learnt to value and love at Kingston. We had so many willing helpers in all our plans and schemes for the good of the village. There was a keen spirit of co-operation – nearly everyone was glad to pull his weight in the village life. Some have passed on: I can see them now. Gilbert Dorey, the Estate woodman, with a natural musical talent and a wonderful mastery of the beautiful organ in the church, that he loved and played so well. Mrs. Orchard, the postmistress, our untiring helper in the W.I. and in all our socials, and in every project. Bill Hooper, our most reliable Captain of the Bells. George Hunt, always ready to help in anything, a very kind, open-hearted fellow. I salute them all!
There were a good many young men in the village who seemed rather at a loose end. I was keen to get into touch with them, and found the Boys’ Club Room helpful for this purpose. There we played games of an evening, and arranged cricket club fixtures and so on.
The Kingston Cricket Club was quite a going concern. A certain Ernest Hixson was Captain – a tricky left-hand bowler; and we had a redoubtable demon bowler in one of the Dorey family – Arthur. With a long run and a hop, skip, and jump, he would deliver a ball calculated, on a rough village wicket, to strike terror into the most intrepid batsman.
Ken Orchard (son of Charley Orchard and Mrs. Orchard the postmistress) was our champion heavy-weight slogger. He used to stride up to the wicket with his bat over his shoulder, a broad assured grin on his face – a Hercules, but for the leopard skin. Fielders fell back – he took his centre – and then with every ball bowled it was “six” or “out” with him. Ken certainly didn’t believe in slow cricket – he quickly brought any match to life. We had fixtures with most of the villages round and our Kingston boys generally gave a good account of themselves.
When the cricket season was over, I suggested play-acting during the winter months. How would they like to try a One-Act play as a start? At first they were shy; but I got them going. We started with Shivering Socks, an appropriate title for us at the moment! They came and rehearsed, undisturbed, at the Vicarage.
On a given day we gave the performance. The only place we had for such an outbreak was the small village schoolroom, where all socials and functions – even dances – had to be held. The audience, packed like sardines, too perspiring even to boo or cat-call – took it well on the whole and let themselves go at the end with a round of applause. Thus a Kingston Dramatic Society was started and on we went to further triumphs!
We found much unexpected talent among young and old. Little did we think that before long England – and even Canada – would lend an ear to us – that, in fact, we should broadcast! But so it proved.
We couln’t have done it without outside help. The person in the village to whom we owed most was Mrs. Fenwick-Owen. She and her daughter, Morvyne, were very keen on the dramatic effort: they loved acting, and realised what a good thing it is for a village to get people out of their shells and give them a form of self-expression combined with lots of fun. “Mrs. F-O” was untiring in the help she gave, and was always so jolly about it – rehearsing, producing and suggesting plays.
We were greatly handicapped at Kingston for want of a village hall for social activities. When I went there I saw this was an urgent need. There were two churches – the new and the old. The old church, though it bore signs of its Norman origin in the walls, and had an Elizabethan bell, had been re-built only some fifty years before the new one arose.
The new one was almost a miniature cathedral, and stood upon a hilly eminence. It was built in 1887 by Lord Eldon (the father of Sir Ernest Scott), of Purbeck stone and marble, in the Gothic style. Street, the architect, was given carte blanche and made a wonderful thing of it. Grand and imposing, it cast the little old church – a stone’s throw away – into the shade. Our services were held in the new church: the old church was hardly ever used.
What a pity I thought, not to make some use of the old church? Could it not still serve a good purpose? Could we get leave to turn it into a Village Hall? I talked this idea over with Sir Ernest Scott and members of the Church Council, and they were quite willing for me to approach the Church Authorities at Salisbury with the suggestion. This I did, with the welcome result that permission was granted. The Union of Benefices Measure allowed such a change to be made where there was a redundancy of churches: so we obtained leave to transform the old church into a Village Hall.
It took time and effort to do this; but the great work was accomplished at last, thanks to the many willing workers in the village who came forward to give their voluntary help – especially the young men of the Boys’ Club. They took off their coats and slaved away in their spare time – reflooring the building, making a platform and doing a hundred things. So, by its own voluntary labour, Kingston had a village hall.
Some other places besides Kingston benifited from our labours. ‘Chaddy’ [Revd. R.M. Chadwick] was thankful to purchase the pews, stained oak, plain and good, for the chapel at Forres. He had them scraped and now they look beautiful in their new setting. The altar and fittings were given to the Infirmary Chapel at Wareham. The attractive candelabra now hang in Arne’s tiny church which survived the bombing there. Memorial tablets were transferred to the new Kingston Church.
The Village Hall has proved an untold boon to Kingston. Scouts and Cubs and Brownies, which we started, have functioned there. A flourishing Kingston W.I. which we also started, has had it for all their meetings and doings ever since. It has served for village dances, concerts, whist drives and shows of all descriptions.
When the Second World War came, I don’t know what Kingston would have done without it as a place for the flood of evacuated school children that descended on the village to be schooled, helped, entertained and catered for in all conceivable ways. Indeed, it came just in time for Hitler’s outbreak and its consequences!
The Village Hall was not only used for secular purposes. We sometimes had religious services there – especially in Lent – and lantern lectures on various subjects. It was quite invaluable to us. Through this strange metamorphosis the old church had come to life again and was able to do something for the new church which greatly needed help for there was no endowment for the upkeep of that majestic building. It wanted a better system of heating and lighting and the organ was crying out for repairs. Where was the money to come from?
The old church by becoming a village hall, where funds could be raised throughout the year by shows and sales and other things, was able to make some welcome response to the appeal of its new neighbour. More was needed however than it could manage so I got busy and staged a Fete on a large scale in the beautiful grounds of Encombe, by permission of Sir Ernest Scott.
Sir Ernest was dubious about it at first; thought it was a big undertaking and felt people would never want the long walk from Kingston down to Encombe and back again. But I advertised it terrifically. Went down to Swanage to broadcast it. Booked buses to run right down to Encombe. Went to great trouble with George Bartlett, the proprietor of the Eldon Arms, to get a licence to have a bar on the Fete grounds to give the villagers a chance of having their pint down at Encombe instead of leaving the side-shows to go back to Kingston for a drink.
The W.I. arranged for large numbers of teas (and how well they organized them!). We got a Band to play for us and to wind up the Fete with dancing on the lawn by moonlight.
The day came. It was August: there were many visitors about – and posters on all the hoardings. People came in flocks from Swanage, Langton and Worth Matravers, Corfe Castle and Wareham – from all round the countryside – had a great time and emptied their pockets for the benefit of our Church Fund.
We raked in £170, and the fete was such a success that it has become an annual affair. In August 1937 it was opened by Leslie Banks who had a holiday cottage at Worth Matravers, the charming little village on the coast near St. Aldhelm’s Head. He was always ready to do a good turn.
Our first ambitious venture in the acting line was a performance of the Morality Play, Everyman. We were fortunate in getting a talented actress, Miss Joyce Bailey, as our producer and to play the part of ‘Everyman’. Two artist friends of ours – near neighbours – Miss Jane Welsh and Miss May Wilson were our mainstays. Miss Welsh was assistant producer, and Miss Wilson was mistress of the robes – and much more besides. These two gifted people provided all the dresses and props and, with a wide experience of producing and acting, helped us in all our doubts and difficulties. Without them, our production could never have reached such a high pitch.
Everyman has a big cast, so that friends from round about and many of our own villagers were roped in for the parts. I was ‘Death’. Muriel, ‘Faith’. Skrimmy was ‘Goods’ and was brought onto the stage in a wonderful chest, out of which he emerged with arms and face covered in gold paint – from which he suffered afterwards. Sir Ernest Scott started the play off by reading the prologue from the stage.
It was a great success at Kingston and also at Swanage where we played it for two nights at the Mowlem Theatre. It was felt to be an exceptional production for a small village. So the Kingston Players had made a good start.
This was only the beginning of many plays that village talent provided. Those who didn’t act themselves were only too ready to help behind the scenes. Ken Orchard (the Hercules of the Cricket Club) was our lighting expert and he never failed us. The plays we did after Everyman were generally produced by Mrs. Fenwick-Owen and gave scope for all and sundry, both male and female, to show their capabilities.
We were keen to do a Dorset Dialogue play – so one day Mrs. Fenwick-Owen and Muriel returning from a W.I. meeting in Dorchester, called on Mrs. Thomas Hardy at Max Gate to ask if her husband had ever written a short play suitable for village acting. She at once gave them a privately printed copy of The Three Wayfarers – a play adapted from one of his Wessex Tales which, she said, was very dramatic and would be most suitable. So we got going on that and performed it with success both at Kingston and at the W.I. Drama Festival at Dorchester.
This was the play we were asked to broadcast. Francis Dillon of the B.B.C. Western Regional saw us do it at the Dorchester Festival and arranged with Mrs. Fenwick-Owen, who produced us, to broadcast it from our Village Hall. We were naturally elated.
Francis Dillon came and stayed in Kingston for a week, and put us through our paces for the broadcast. We were tremendously interested in the arrangements for it, especially for the “noises off” which were done direct from Bristol and made to synchronise exactly with our spoken words. It seemed wonderful! We had many rehearsals through the week. On the day, it went without a hitch and, so far as we know, was heard by listeners from John o’Groats to Lands End, and certainly in Canada by the relations of some of our broadcasters. It was a Red Letter Day for the Kingston Players.
We once made a new departure, and tried our hand at a … Minstrel Show – male and female … It took some doing to collect good jokes and patter. Muriel went about with a red note-book and wrote down all she could get hold of. Then we had to fit them in with the songs and dancing. We had full audiences at Kingston, Corfe Castle, Langton Matravers and Swanage. Sir Ernest, in the audience at Kingston, was absolutely convulsed with laughter. He himself supplied one of our best jokes.
For a time much interest was taken in Folk dancing. Miss Ruth Dawson came over from Langton Matravers to teach us. Several of the older people were beautiful dancers – George Hunt and Mrs. Senneck especially.
I could count on those who helped most in social activities to help in religious activity too – as sidesmen, choirmen, bell-ringers or anything connected with the Church. We were all good mixers. I think our strenuous work in creating a Village Hall had helped us in this: it had drawn us together in a very matey way.
One Lent we had a Village Mission taken by the Diocesan Lay Missioner, Mr. C. S. Agar. It was very well attended and we had special meetings for men, women and children, besides the daily Mission Services. The Mission was a help to many. It was to Muriel and me.
On Good Fridays we generally had a Sacred Cantata in the evening, such as Stainer’s Crucifixion, Maunder’s From Olivet to Calvary and Darkness and Dawn. These were arranged by our good organist, Gilbert Dorey, who took infinite trouble over the practices. We had an augmented choir for them – Muriel, and Morvyne Fenwick-Owen (who had a charming voice which she later took on stage proper), and several other women from the village were in it, as well as extra men. The Cantatas were very much appreciated by the village and many who came from outside.
One Good Friday morning we had a Procession of Witness through the village, with hymns and a short address, which I have on the rising ground opposite the Post Office. Sir Ernest Scott, the Choir, and a number of others joined us in the witness. Our Easter services were always delightful, full of life.
After his ordination ‘Chaddy’ came up several times of a Sunday and preached at Evensong. Sometimes we exchanged and I went to Forres Chapel.
Muriel found some good helpers among the girls for her Sunday School work – especially Irene Sansom (now married with two little boys of her own). For a time Miss Joan Muspratt kindly came up from Swanage to take the class of older girls.
I was anxious that, with all our considerable social activities, we should put first things first, and I think that everyone knew I was keen on this: while at the same time I did not wish to draw a hard and fast line between secular and sacred – bearing in mind the words of Archbishop Magee: “There is nothing secular but sin”.
We had a strong British Legion contingent in the village, and we made much of every 11th of November. On the Saturday evening before Remembrance Sunday, we assembled in force at the Eldon Arms (now the Scott Arms). There we had a truly wonderful Dinner – with Sir Ernest Scott in the Chair. With speeches and a sing-song we kept it up pretty late. My usual song was Father O’Flynn. It was a most enjoyable re-union. Mrs. Bartlett, the Proprietress, excelled herself each year with her marvellous Roast beef, roast fowls, plum pudding and apple tart and other things. She was a striking old Victorian character immensely respected and very dignified in her glossy black silk; rather grim till you got on the right side of her – but she certainly delivered the goods.
On Remembrance Sunday we always had a packed church for the Service. Our British Legion men came in force, and the Swanage Legion Band. They were marshalled and paraded to church by our Charley Orchard, who had served in the Dorsetshire Yeomanry, and now marched in front of the Ex-servicemen like a Drum Major.
Inside the Church we had a moving Service – the Silence, the special hymns, the Bugle Calls sounded by Gerald White (our gardener), the placing of a wreath against the War Memorial Tablet, and at the close, the March off to the tune of “Onward Christian Soldiers” played by the Band.
The congregations at our usual Sunday morning Services were greatly helped by Oldfield (Co-educational) and Spyway (Preparatory) Schools, who came along and added considerably to our numbers. When Forres Chapel was built, Oldfield missed the schools’ service I had taken at All Saints’, Swanage, and which was discontinued; so they came up to Kingston in buses on alternate Sundays all the time I was vicar there. The Hicksons of Oldfield and the Warners of Spyway, were long-standing frends and we were always very glad to see them with their bus loads of boys and girls whom they brought along because they liked our simple short service.
St. James was our patron Saint – one of the “Sons of Thunder”. Our Cathedral-like Church, dedicated to him, lent itself well to services on special occasions, such as the Remembrance Service and Harvest Thanksgiving and the big Festivals.
In the Summer months, too, it came into its own with Summer visitors, and Scouts and Guides from camps near by. So then we had very good morning congregations and hearty services and were glad of the size and beauty of St. James’s Church. It was an impressive and worshipful place.
The Church Tower commanded a grand view towards Corfe and Poole Harbour beyond. It had a fine peal of eight bells, and we had a hefty team of keen bellringers under the Captain of the Bells, Bill Hooper.
Every New Year’s Eve was the occasion of another dinner at the Eldon Arms, with Mrs. Bartlett going strong as ever in the matter of beef, puddings and apple tarts. This was the Choir and Bellringers’ Dinner. It was kept up with song and merriment till about 11.15pm when we all adjourned to the Belfry where we rang the Old Year out and the New Year in, had a prayer, and then closed with the hymn “Father, let me dedicate all this Year to Thee”.
During my time at Kingston I was much indebted to the Agent of Encombe Estate, Mr W. E. Candy, who invariably gave his willing help and co-operation in all that was undertaken for the good of the Village. He was one of the School Managers, served on the Parochial Church Council and on the Village Hall Committee; and gave valuable help as Hon. Treasurer of the Fetes we had at Encombe. If I was ever in any difficulty I could always count on his sound advice.
Mr. Candy had entered the service of the third Lord Eldon (Sir Ernest Scott’s father) as long ago as 1890, and continued to serve the same family when Sir Ernest Scott became the owner.
Sometimes in the summer we let the Vicarage and trekked off for a holiday. In 1935 we let it for some weeks to a Mr. and Mrs. Milligan and their young family. We went to Chagford first for fishing … From there Muriel and I set off for the Shakespeare Festival at Stratford-on-Avon. We did some sight-seeing too …Then we turned our faces towards home and this time, as the Vicarage was still let, we parked ourselves in a wizard little stone cottage on the cliffs above Dancing Ledge , called “Sea Spray”. This enabled me to do the duty at Kingston and make arrangements for the Encombe Fete and Flower Show.
Here we were joined again by Editha Roupell … She brought her young nephew and niece … They brought a tent with them … and pitched alongside “Sea Spray” … We mealed together in the cottage – or more often on the terrace, and had a great time, lots of fun. So did the two Kingston girls, Margaret Senneck and Edna Turner, whom we brought along to work for us.
The Encombe Fete and Flower Show was again a huge success. We had lovely weather. All the entrance tickets were sold, and about a thousand people came, including many Scouts and guides. Our Church Funds benefited very considerably. We were fortunate in having many good helpers …
Towards the end of 1936 we were much saddened at Kingston by Tom Joyce‘s failing health – he had been such a good friend to us. Some internal trouble developed and caused him a good deal of discomfort and suffering. He was taken to the West Hants Hospital at Boscombe, where I visited him several times. I remember him smiling up at me after a talk – it was my last visit, I think – and saying, “I’m having a rough passage, Vicar”. It was over for him just after Christmas. His wife did not long survive him. She passed on the following summer. In them we had lost two whom we could ill spare.
Dr. Dru Drury of Corfe Castle and his daughter were special friends of ours. He has an extensive practice there and in the surrounding villages, including Kingston. He is a man of many parts, a great supporter of the Church and a keen archaeologist.
Janet, living in such surroundings, could not fail to have both the historic and histrionic sense. She roped in many of us at Kingston for various plays and pageants. She now runs an amateur troupe known as “The Purbeck Players” and regularly carries off bouquets at the annual Dorset Drama Festival.
She produced The Tempest at Corfe Castle, and Kingston, and in the grounds of Encombe. I played ‘Prospero’ which meant much memorizing, but was well worth it. A Kingston girl – Dulcie Curtis, made a charming little ‘Ariel’, and Morvyne Fenwick-Owen played ‘Miranda’ with much feeling. … Encombe afforded a beautiful outdoor setting and we had a large and appreciative audience there.
Janet, now Mrs. Wilson, is an exceptionally able and imaginative producer and gets the best out of a cast. Her “Purbeck Players” today are highly skilled. They have performaed a variety of plays .. Some outstanding acting has been shown in these productions by Dulcie Curtis as ‘Velvet’, Syd Payne as ‘The Farmer’, Gerald Loxston as ‘Churdles Ash’, Mrs. Elford as ‘Araminta’ and Mrs. John Lawrence in several parts, to take but a few instances.
In July 1939, just before the awful cloudburst of World War II, a wonderful Dorset Pageant was performed in the grounds of Lulworth Castle (by permission of Colonel Weld). Many Dorset W.I.’s contributed episodes to illustrate historic events in Dorset from earliest times. It fell to the villages of Worth Matravers, Kingston and Corfe Castle to act an episode entitled Benjamin Jesty, the discoverer of the use of cow-pox injections against the small pox. For Jesty lived at Dunshay in the parish ofWorth Matravers, and his tomb is in the churchyard of Worth’s ancient and lovely little church.
Janet Drury produced our episode. My part in it was to make a speech in honour of ‘Jesty’. A Mr. Drew drove on with Muriel in a dog-cart as “parson” and “parson’s wife”!
A date that stands out in my Kingston period is May 12th, 1937 – the day of the Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth. In the morning , we assembled in the Church to listen to the broadcast of the Service from Westminster Abbey – very moving and impressive.
For the rest of the day we flag-wagged, junketed and racketed: sports and races for both children and grown-ups; a fancy dress procession; ‘cakes and ale’, tea and buns for anyone and everyone; fireworks and a bonfire after dark; a dance in the Village Hall to finish with. A day to be remembered!
In August this same year a word began to echo in my mind, and a wish in my heart – “Retirement”: not from active service as a “Sky Pilot”, but from being restricted to one place for my efforts. I had now been forty years in orders, and I began to feel I should like to cut adrift from the daily humfdrum routine of parochialities and be a free-lance – free to give what clerical help and assistance I could in the neighbourhood and diocese, unfettered by a parish.
When I sent my resignation to Sir Ernest Scott, I received a charming letter from him, regretting my decision, thanking me for my work at Kingston, and saying how sorry the people would be to hear that I was leaving, for it was, he said, ‘a case of Quot homines, tot amici‘.
I could not have had a nicer nor kinder patron than Sir Ernest – always willing to help and co-operate in any way he could. He was a good sportsman, a most considerate landlord to the people on his estate and a friend to all.
My last Sunday as Vicar of Kingston was July 10th, 1938. For some weeks previously Muriel and I had been busy paying farewell visits, always a sad business: but we were cheered by the thought we were only going to live a short distance away and would often see our Kingston friends. We had an extremely happy and interesting time there and were genuinely sorry to leave. I was succeeded by the Rev. M. de Burgh Scott, long well-known to us in Swanage.
Tagged Bartlett, Boys Club, Broad, Candy, Cottrell, Cricket, Curtis, Dorey, Eldon Arms, Fenwick-Owen, Fete, Hixson, Hooper, Horan, Hunt, Joyce, Kingston Players, Loxston, Orchard, Sansom, Scott, Senneck, Turner, Village Hall, W.I., White, Women;s Institute
1938: The Late Mr. Gilbert V. Dorey
By Kingston One-Place Study 06/01/1939 27/01/2017 Newspapers, Obituaries
Three former vicars of Kingston (Corfe Castle) attended the funeral service at St. James’ Church, on Saturday afternoon, of Mr. Gilbert Victor Dorey, who for over 30 years had been organist at the church. The interior of the building which deceased knew and loved so well, still bore its Christmas decorations, as the coffin, borne by four senior employees (Messrs. Gerald Loxton, Charlie Orchard, George Hunt and Jesse Marsh), of the Encombe Estate, was carried into the church, the cortege being preceded by the choir, with the congregation joining in the hymn, “Peace, perfect peace.” As the cortege left the church the “Nunc Dimittis” was chanted.
The Vicar (the Rev. M. de Burgh Scott) conducted the service, assisted by the Rev. F. S. Horan (the former vicar). Mr. Charles Pond was at the organ.
The principal mourners were the widow, Mrs. C. Clark, Mrs. G. Randall, Mrs. E. Brake, and Mrs. W. Neale (sisters), Mr. A. Dorey and Mr. R. Dorey (brothers), Mr. C. Dorey, Mr. W. Randall, Mr. and Mrs. P. Hann, and Miss O. Dorey (nephews and nieces), Mr. G. Dorey, Mr. and Mrs. E. Dorey, and Mrs. W. Smith (cousins). Mrs. F. Dorey, Mrs. A. S. Dorey, Mrs. A. Dorey, Mrs. W. Dorey, and Miss Jukes (sisters-in-law), Mr. and Mrs. F. Cooper, Mr. and Mrs. L. Turner, Mr. J. Marsh, and Mr. and Mrs. Donald Barnes.
Mr. W. Dorey (eldest brother) was unable to attend owing to illness.
Included among those present in the church were Archdeacon Smith and the Rev. Raymond A. Bond (former vicars), Mrs. M. de B. Scott, Mrs. F. S. Horan, Mrs. Raymond A. Bond, Mrs. Fenwick-Owen, Captain J. Docrwa Rogers, Mr. Walter E. Candy (agent to the Encombe Estate), and Mr. E. A. Hixson, together with many estate employees and villagers.
The large number of wreaths included tributes from the bellringers, choirmen, boys and girls, and sidesmen of St. James’ Church, Kingston, Mr. W. E. Candy (agent), and Messrs. Hixson, Loxton, Gale, and Marsh (senior employees), Estate and farm employees, Kingston ex-Service men and Kingston Women’s Institute.
FLORAL TRIBUTES.
The beautiful floral tokens included the following:- In ever-loving memory of my darling Husband, from his sorrowing Wife; Cecil and Ron (sons); Charlotte and family; Bessie and family; Jennie and Ernest; Lou and George (Canada); Mabel and Will and Phillip; Walt, Gert, and Marjorie; Alf, Rose, Fred, and Iris; Bob, Bet, Grace, and Betty; Art, Irene, Olive (nephew and nieces); Annie, Agnes, and family, Charlie, Kath, Michael; Lot, George, Nance, Ern and Rose, and Amy (cousins); Alice (sister-in-law); Ben, Fred, and Frank (brother-in-law and nephews); Walt and Ern (brother-in-law and sister); Bert and family (brother-in-law and sister); Vicar and Mrs. Scott; Rev. Raymond and Mrs. Bond and Miss Margaret; Mr. and Mrs. A. Cooper and family; Mr. and Mrs. W. Stickland; ”Eldon Arms,” Kingston; Mr. and Mrs. F. Tatchell; Mrs. Allen, Corfe Castle; Mr. and Mrs. P. Damer and Nellie; Mrs. N. Phillips; Mr. and Mrs. D. Barnes; Rhoda and Will; Ronald and Hubert; Jack.
Mrs. Dorey and family sincerely thank the many friends who have expressed sympathy and sent floral tributes in their bereavement.
NATIVE OF THE VILLAGE.
The late Mr. Dorey passed away at his home, 3, West-street, Kingston on Tuesday, after a fairly long period of ill-health, although his last illness was of short duration. Aged 51 years, he was a native of the village, and throughout the whole of his working life had been employed on the Encombe Estate. As far as the communal spirit of the village was concerned Mr. Dorey was one of the greatest stalwarts. His greatest interest was in the church, which he served faithfully for 44 years, as choirboy from the age of seven and upwards of 30 years as organist and choirmaster. He also lent a hand at bell-ringing, and at times he rang regularly for fairly long periods, in spite of the calls made upon his time by other church duties. As a tribute to his memory the bells were rung half-muffled following the committal on Saturday afternoon.
A KEEN MUSICIAN.
A keen musician deceased could play a number of instruments and for many years was one of the leading members of the Kingston Village Band. He was also interested in the many social functions which have produced such a happy village life at Kingston, and he was ever ready to lend a hand in whatever direction the call was made. Only a fortnight before his death he took part in a play in the village hall, while it may be recalled that just 12 months before his passing – on December 26th 1937 – he was one of the Kingston Players taking part in Thos. Hardy’s “The Three Strangers,” broadcast by the B.B.C.
Mr. Dorey leaves a widow and two sons aged 13 and 9, with whom much sympathy is felt.
Western Gazette, Friday 6 January 1939
Tagged Bond, Candy, Damer, Dorey, Fenwick-Owen, Hixson, Horan, Loxston, Pond, Smith, Tatchell
1938: Dorset R.A.F. Crash
By Kingston One-Place Study 25/03/1938 27/01/2017 Newspapers
Disaster in Coastal Fog – Three Men Killed near Corfe Castle – Aircraft in Flames
The three occupants of an R.A.F. aeroplane, a Fairy Swordfish, bound from Gosport to Roborough, near Plymouth, on Friday afternoon, were killed when the machine, after hitting some trees, crashed in a coastal fog, near Encombe House, the Dorsetshire residence of the Hon. Sir Ernest S. Scott, K.C.M.G., M.V.O. Hearing the noise of the crash, Sir Ernest went to the scene with some of his employees, but was unable to render assistance owing to the flames which burst from the wreckage.
The dead men were Pilot-Officer Frederick Edgar Williams, Corporal Cyril John Coles, and Leading-Aircraftsman David Samuel Hurrell.
Eye-Witness’s Story
Mr. E. Hixon [Hixson], of the Encombe Estate Office, who, with others, heard the crash and rushed to the spot in a motor-car, told a representative of this paper that the ‘plane was flying in the fog over the coast line at 2.45 p.m. and must have hit some tree on the road to Swyre Head, just outside the village of Kingston, near Corfe Castle. When he arrived the aeroplane was in flames. “There were three men in it, but we could not get near them owing to the great heat. I think the men must have been killed when the plane crashed.” The aeroplane had rolled down through the trees and then down the hill-side in the vale. An overcoat of R.A.F. blue, was thrown out of the aeroplane, and in the pocket was a handkerchief bearing the name ‘Williams, Gosport.’”
The bodies were subsequently removed to the mortuary at the Poor-law Institution, at Wareham, pending the inquest on Tuesday by the Coroner for East Dorset (Mr. R. N. Neville-Jones).
“Flying Too Low”
Coroner and Cause of Accident.
Graphic stories of the disaster were told the Coroner by witnesses and the jury, of whom Mr. S. W. Roshier was foreman, returned a verdict of “Accidental Death.”
The Coroner, reviewing the evidence, observed for some reason or other the aeroplane was flying very much too low round the Purbeck Hills, and one of the probable reasons for that was that there was a good deal of low cloud about, and the pilot, having lost sight of the ground, came down to see if he could see it again, and in doing so, unfortunately, came down too low and had the very great misfortune to strike some trees. Had he been a very few feet further up he would have missed them altogether and got out to sea quite safely.
How Men were Identified
Leading Aircraftsman Gwyn Lewis, of the R.A.F., stationed at Gosport, identified Pilot-Officer Williams (aged 21 and single) by his flying overalls, and Corporal Coles (married, aged 32) by his name on a piece of his trousers, which was not burned. Hurrell was aged 21 and single.
Squadron-Leader John Goodenough Elton, commanding the R.A.F. training squadron at Gosport, stated Mr. Williams was a pupil on torpedo training course, and was on a cross-country training flight to Roborough, which witness had authorised. Williams had had just over 200 hours flying as a pilot, and he was considered one of the best pilots, being qualified in all respects. The two passengers were both members of the training squadron and on a pilot course.
Flying Low Regulations
Coroner: What are the regulations about flying low?
Witness: In the normal course of events a pilot is not supposed to fly lower than 1,000 feet, but he is occasionally forced lower by the weather.
The Coroner: The visibility in places was very good apparently that afternoon, but over the Purbeck Hills and the particular spot where he crashed there was fog.
Witness observed it was supposition, but he thought probably the aeroplane was flying under a cloud and keeping sight of the ground, which a pilot would often do. “They should actually keep up high and wait until they came out of it,” added witness.
The Coroner pointed out that this was the second fatality which had occurred in his district within the last few months due to almost exactly the same cause – fog and low flying, and there was an instruction the pilot should keep up.
Witness: Pilots are definitely instructed not to fly low when they get in bad weather, but remain at a safe height and turn round and trace their way back into the fair weather again. The machine was completely equipped with instruments which showed its height.
The Coroner: What it really amounts to was inexperience and he was doing what he ought not to do – a dangerous procedure? – Yes.
Witness: Oh, yes. In this particular case I instructed the pilot to return if the weather deteriorated after leaving Gosport, where it was quite fine. There were special orders about low flying.
The Coroner: Which are honoured in the breach apparently.
Eye-Witnesses’ Stories
Stories of the disaster were told by witnesses – Misses Bessie Beatrice Marsh, of Orchard Hill Farm, Kingston, Mr Ernest Albert Hixon [Hixson] of Rabling-road, Swanage, a clerk employed at the Encombe Estate Office, Kingston, and Mrs. Alice Pamela Sampson [Sansom], of Encombe.
Mrs. Marsh said her husband remarked, “He is going to hit the house,” it was flying so low – within another foot it would have touched the chimney. There was a very thick mist and she was only just able to make out the outline of the ‘plane as it passed straight over the house. A few seconds later she heard a loud crash in the direction the ‘plane had gone, followed by a loud bang or explosion. She went in a lorry with her husband and found the machine in flames. It had torn right through Polar Wood and was burning fiercely on the hill-side – the sea side of the wood – just below.
Mr. Hixon [Hixson] stated there was a very thick fog. He heard the roar of a ‘plane which seemed directly over-head and apparently travelling at a very fast speed. Next he heard a crash of splintering wood.
From her upstairs window, Mrs. Sampson [Sansom] said she saw the ‘plane fall in flames half-way down the hillside, and she observed an object – what it was she did not know – roll down the hill.
Replying to Mr. R. C. Hockey, Air Ministry Inspector of Accidents, witness said she could not quite remember but she was under the impression the aeroplane hit the hillside before bursting into flames.
P.C. Cutler produced the overcoat of an R.A.F. officer, singed but not badly burnt., which he said he found near where the ‘plane crashed. Parts of the aeroplane were scattered all over the hillside, and trees in polar Wood had had their tops cut off by the plane. Later, with the assistance of other policemen, he recovered the bodies from the wreckage.
The Coroner, on behalf of himself and the jury, expressed to the relatives of deceased, the sympathy which they all felt for them in this “most unfortunate tragedy.” – Inspector G. E. Burt, on behalf on the police, associated himself with these remarks.
Western Gazette, 25 March 1938
Tagged air crash, Hixson, Marsh, Sansom, Scott
1936: Obituary: Funeral of Mr. Andrew Dorey
KINGSTON – FUNERAL OF MR. ANDREW DOREY – VICTIM OF GRAVEL PIT ACCIDENT
The beautiful little village of Kingston was in mourning on Tuesday for the loss of Mr. Andrew Stephen Dorey, aged 57, who (as reported in another column) met his death in tragic circumstances on Friday, when he was killed by a fall of gravel in the course of his work on the Encombe Estate. Mr. Dorey worked from his boyhood on the Encombe Estate, and was for many years shepherd, but during recent years, since Mr. and Mrs. Dorey have been resident at Encombe House, where Mrs. Dorey is housekeeper, he has done general work on the estate. He was known and highly respected throughout the neighbourhood, and his lossis very keenly felt. He was a staunch churchman, and a chorister and bellringer for many years, also a bandsman in the Village Band. Mr. Dorey leaves his widow, one son and two daughters to mourn their loss.
The Vicar, the Rev. F. S. Horan, conducted the funeral service, during which he paid tribute to the character of Mr. Andrew Dorey who, through a life well lived, was leaving a happy memory for those who loved him. He was a friend to all, his cheery smile will always be remembered, and he leaves the village poorer for his loss.
Sir Ernest Scott was among those attending, and the large congregation included estate employees and parishioners. Mr. E. A. Hixson represnted Mr. W. E. Candy, the agent, who was prevented being present, and Mr. F. Pond represented the Swanage Town Band, deceased having been a member of the Kingston Band. Estate employees – Messrs. G. Hunt, H. Sansom, C. Brown, and C. Orchard – acted as bearers.
The chief mourners were the widow and family.
THE WREATHS
Beautiful wreaths were sent by the following: His loving and sorrowing wife; Art and Gladys (son and daughter-in-law); Irene and Percy (daughter and son-in-law); Olive (daughter); Charlotte, Mabel and Bill (sisters and brother-in-law) and Philip (nephew); Bessie (sister) and family; Jennie and Ernest (sister and brother-in-law); Walt and Gertie (brother and sister-in-law) and Marjorie (niece); Gilb and Frances (brother and sister-in-law); Alf and Rose (brother and sister-law); Fred and Iris (nephew and niece); Bob and Bet (brother and sister-in-law); Grace and Betty (nieces); Mabel, Will, Winnie and Gilbert (nieces and nephews); Jim and Kath (nephew and niece); Cecil and Ron (nephews); Lottie, Annie, Rose, Amy, George and Jennie (cousins); Ern (cousin); Aunt Fan, Bert, Fred, Win, Nancy and Len; Fred and Em; Bob; Cousin Poll (Ellen); Jim and Kate; Mr. and Mrs. Frank Hann; Mr. and Mrs. W. Barnes and family (East Holme); Mr. and Mrs. D. Barnes (Arne); Mr. and Mrs. W. Cooper; Charlie, Nellie and Ken Orchard; Percy and Ada Damer; Mrs. Robert Damer and Dawson; Jack and Elsie; Joan; Mr. and Mrs. Seymour and family; In memory of our comrade and workmate, from men of Encombe Farm and Estate; From Garden staff, Encombe; Churchwardens, sidesman, choirmen and bellringers; Mrs C. Bartlett and Mr. and Mrs. G. Bartlett; H. Sansom and family; Mrs. Joyce; The Rev. and Mrs. F. S. Horan; Charlie and Beat (Creech); Bill and Maud; Mrs. Loxton; Mr. and Mrs. P. Churchill; Mrs. Pooss (Preston).
Mrs. Dorey and family wish to thank all who gave their assistance, also for sympathy in their sad bereavement, and floral tributes sent.
Our thanks to Carol Brown who provided this cutting
Tagged accident, Bartlett, Brown, Candy, Cooper, Damer, Dorey, Hixson, Horan, Hunt, Loxston, Orchard, Sansom, Scott
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Date of Web Publication 14-Oct-2009
Keywords: Buccinator groove, camper′s line, occlusal plane, interpupillary line, retromolar pad area
Gupta R, Aeran H, Singh S P. Relationship of anatomic landmarks with occlusal plane. J Indian Prosthodont Soc 2009;9:142-7
Gupta R, Aeran H, Singh S P. Relationship of anatomic landmarks with occlusal plane. J Indian Prosthodont Soc [serial online] 2009 [cited 2020 Jan 20];9:142-7. Available from: http://www.j-ips.org/text.asp?2009/9/3/142/57083
The desire to look good and feel healthy is not limited by age. Since time immemorial, dentists have faced the challenge of providing accord between function and esthetics. The occlusal plane, lost in patients rendered edentulous, should be relocated if complete dentures are to be esthetically and functionally satisfactory.
GPT (July 2005) [1] defines occlusal plane as "the average plane established by the incisal and occlusal surfaces of the teeth". Generally it is not a plane but represents the planar mean of the curvature of these surfaces. Functionally, the inclination of the occlusal plane is one of the key factors governing occlusal balance and phonation. Esthetically, the anterior occlusal plane takes on a fundamental role.
Considering the importance of the accurate establishment of the location and inclination of occlusal plane on function, esthetics and speech, a method to conform it to the occlusal plane that existed in the natural teeth seems necessary. Various authors have advocated different methods for the orientation of the occlusal plane. Most important and accurate of these is pre-extraction record, eg: profile photographs, lead wire, acrylic face mask, dentulous casts etc. Unfortunately, these records are generally not available.
Numerous authors, since the beginning of complete denture fabrication, have proposed several landmarks to help define the level of occlusal plane. Various planes like Frankfurt horizontal plane, Camper's line, Palatal line, Occlusal line, Mandibular line, Interpupillary line, Hamular notch incisive papilla (H.I.P. plane) etc. have been suggested. Many intraoral landmarks like commissures of the mouth by Gillis [2] in 1933, Incisive papilla by Robert N. Harper [3] in 1948, parotid papilla by P. F. Foley and G. H. Latta [4] in 1985, upper lip line by Rahn and Heartwell [5] in 1986, height of the retromolar pad, the lateral borders of the tongue etc. have also been suggested
In 1979, H. Okane [6] found that during clenching maximum biting force was greatest and muscle activity was least when the occlusal plane was made parallel to the ala-tragus line. Landa [2] in 1947 said that the occlusal plane is parallel to line drawn from the alae of nose to the middle point of the tragus while Arthur O. Rahn and Charles M. Heartwell (1986) [7] said the occlusal plane should coincide with Camper's line (superior border of the tragus). On the other hand, F. Rostamkhani, A. Sahafian and H. Kermani (2005) [8] conducted a cephalometric study and concluded that the inferior border of the tragus can be suggested as the posterior point for ala-tragus line orientation. Various authors like J. E. Scott (1952) [9] described an instrument "the bite plane leveler, Nikzad S. Javid (1974) [10] suggested the use of "J-plane", Kazanoglu& John W. Unger (1992) [11] described "Camper's plane indicator" and Urbano, Santana-Penin& Maria J. Mora (1998) [12] described a U-shaped device for analyzing the level of ala-tragus line. In 1993, Vincent Kokich [13] said for good esthetics the occlusal plane should be parallel to interpupillary plane while Jeff Morley and Jimmy Eubank (2001) [14] said the creation of an incisal plane perpendicular to the facial midline produces a reliable and repeatable position that does not depend on the interpupillary line.
Jack Piermatti (2006) [15] said the occlusal plane should terminate at the upper level of the retromolar pad while Arthur O. Rahn and Charles M. Heartwell (1986) [7] said posterior height should not exceed half the height of the retromolar pad. On the other hand, K. Shigli, B.R. Chetal and J. Jabade (2005) [16] found the lower one-third of the retromolar pad consistent with the mandibular occlusal plane while Robert L. Engelmeier (1996) [17] said in the sagittal view the occlusal plane is determined by the incisal edges of maxillary central incisors and the approximate juncture of the upper and middle thirds of the retromolar pad.
K. Shigli, B.R. Chetal and J. Jabade (2005) [16] found that the mean value of all readings of buccinator groove was 0.94 mm below the mandibular occlusal plane and is a reliable intraoral landmark for occlusal plane determination.
It is evident that the various concepts reported in literature allow variation in the location of occlusal plane. Hence a need was felt to evaluate the relationship between the occlusal plane, extraoral and intraoral landmarks.
To assess relationships between intraoral and, extraoral soft tissue landmarks, Viz. Retroretromolar pad, buccinator groove, ala-tragus line and interpupillary line, with occlusal plane
To determine consistency of soft tissue landmarks with occlusal plane in both sexes and check for any variation
To evaluate the significance of soft tissue landmarks in establishing lost occlusal plane
The study was conducted on 100 dentulous subjects (50 males and 50 females)
Age group = 17 - 21 yrs
No history of
facial trauma or surgery causing asymmetry of the eyes
no gingival or periodontal conditions or therapy that would undermine a healthy tooth-to-tissue relationship.
All healthy permanent teeth were present in normal arch form and alignment with
no interdental spacing or crowding present.
teeth were not grossly abraded or attrited
no gross dental restorations that might alter the plane
no evidence of gingival alteration or dental irregularities
Absence of any apparent defect, deformity or asymmetry of the face
Instruments Used
1. Occlusal Plane Analyzer [Figure 1]
This instrument was custom made to check for parallelism of ala-tragus line to the occlusal plane and occlusal plane to interpupillary line.
A FOX PLANE (Dr. Frank Fox (Dentsply /York division, York, PA) was taken. Four long screws were attached at the four ends of occlusal plane relator arm, care was taken to place these screws parallel to each other. Three metal plates (two in oblique direction and one in horizontal) were then attached to these screws. Two plates (oblique) were made parallel to the occlusal plane relator arm. It served to analyze the parallelism of occlusal plane with ala-tragus line. The third plate (horizontal) was parallel to the frontal connecting arm which could relate the occlusal plane to interpupillary line. A mark was made on both the sides of all the plates. The corresponding mark, which was in a straight line to the mark on the plate, was placed on the arms of the fox plane. These marks helped determine parallelism of the plates by measuring the distance between the plates.
A metal key was also provided with the instrument to open the metal collars and help move the plates up and down.
2. Digital Vernier Callipers:
Digital Vernier calipers, with an accuracy of .001mm, were used to check the distance between the two arrowheads on two parallel plates.
3. Buccinator Groove Relator: [Figure 2]
It was custom made to compare the level of the buccinator groove (linea alba buccalis) with the occlusal plane. A vertical impression plate with rounded ends was attached on either side of the bite fork. The ends of these plates were rounded to avoid any possible injury to the soft tissues. Small holes were made on the vertical plates to help for the retention of the impression material.
4. Level Analyzer: [Figure 3]
An u-shaped plate was made to check the level of buccinator groove with the occlusal plane on the impression taken. While fabricating, care was taken to make sure both the prongs of the U were at the same level and parallel to each other.
5. Metallic Scale:
A thin 6" stainless steel scale was used to relate the occlusal plane to the retromolar pad.
STEP - 1: Parallelism of Occlusal Plane to Campers Line:
Subjects are seated in an upright position on a dental chair so that they looked forward at the horizon. Using a surgical marking pencil, three points are marked on the tragus of the subject according to its location i.e. superior, middle and inferior. The occlusal plane analyzer is placed in the subject's mouth and held in position by the subject biting over it. The plate is raised until it coincided with ala of the nose. [Figure 4]
The distance between the arrowheads on the two plates is then measured using the digital vernier calipers. Same distance between the two plates on both sides indicated parallel opening. [Figure 5]
The posterior end is then checkedwhether to see if it coincided with the superior, middle or inferior point of the tragus. The procedure was repeated for both the sides.
STEP - 2: Parallelism of Occlusal Plane to Interpupillary Line:
The parallelism of occlusal plane with interpupillary line is checked using the same instrument. With the subject seated in the upright position, the occlusal plane analyzer is placed in the subject's mouth and held in position by the subject biting over it. The frontal metal plate is then made parallel to the interpupillary line. Finally, the parallelism is checked with the frontal connecting arm of the fox plane, by measuring the distance between the two plates using digital vernier calipers. Same distance between both the ends indicated parallelism. [Figure 5]
STEP - 3: Level of Occlusal Plane with Linea Alba Buccalis
For the buccinator groove, the buccinator groove relator and level analyzer are used. An irreversible hydrocolloid impression material (alginate - Zelgan 2002.Dentsply) is used to make the impression of the buccinator groove. An indelible pencil is used to mark the groove in the subject's mouth [Figure 6]. For the impression, alginate material is placed on the vertical impression plates. It is made certain that the distal aspects of the buccal vestibules on both sides are filled. The subject is then asked to pucker his/her lips as in sucking with the lips slightly separated, but without the loss of contact of teeth with the bite plate. This helps transfer the mark to the impression. The impression is then removed from the mouth, washed with water and excess trimmed.
The level analyzer is then used to check for the level of the groove in relation to the occlusal plane. One of the prongs of the plate is kept on the top side of the bite plate (depicting maxillary occlusal plane) such that the second prong extends on the other side of the vertical plate, carrying the vestibular impression [Figure 7]. The coincidence/non-coincidence of the groove to the occlusal plane is then noted. Similar procedure is followed for the other side also.
STEP - 4: Relationship of Occular Plane with Retromolar Pad
Using a surgical marking pencil, the retromolar pad area of the subject is divided into three equal zones. The stainless steel scale is then slided posteriorly over the cusps of the mandibular posterior teeth ensuring its contact with the tip of the cuspid on one side of the mandibular arch to make contact with the retromolar pad. The zone of contact i.e. the superior one-third, middle one-third or the junction of superior or middle one-third of the retromolar pad, is then recorded [Figure 8]. The process is repeated on the other side of the arch.
Statistical analysis was carried out using: CHI - SQUARE TEST. The level of significance adopted was 5%.
Occlusal Plane and Camper's Line
The occlusal plane analyzer was used [Table 1]; a variation of posterior reference point of Camper's line in males and females was also observed. It was seen that 72% of males had middle point as posterior reference point while 80% of females had superior point as the posterior reference point showing parallelism to the occlusal plane
Occlusal Plane and Interpupilalry Line
The same instrument was used to analyze parallelism of the occlusal plane with the interpupillary line. Despite various claims only 13% subjects showed occlusal plane parallel to the interpupillary line. Not much difference was observed between the two sexes [Table 2], 92% of males and 82% of females showed canting
Occlusal Plane and Buccinator Groove
The buccinator groove relator was used to relate the occlusal plane with the level of buccinator groove. The level analyzer was used to analyze the level; 70% males and 66% females have the groove at the same level of the occlusal plane. So the buccinator groove can be used as a reliable [Table 3] landmark for orientation of occlusal plane.
Occlusal Plane and Retromolar Pad
A metallic scale was passed along the cusp tip from cuspid to mandibular II / III molar and extended posteriorly to check for the relationship between occlusal plane and retromolar pad. Insignificant difference between the males and females was observed as 76% of males and 78% of females with occlusal plane at the level of the middle third of the retromolar pad area [Table 4].
Comparing the right and left side
Variation of occlusal plane relationship with the ala-tragus plane, buccinator groove and retromolar pad area was observed on the right and left side. The retromolar pad area showed maximum number of variations followed by buccinator groove; least in relating the ala-tragus line to occlusal plane. This indicates that ala-tragus plane is a reliable [Table 5] landmark for orienting the occlusal plane. Intraorally, buccinator groove is the best available landmark.
The orientation of the occlusal plane lost in patients rendered edentulous should be relocated if complete dentures are to be esthetic and function satisfactorily. The orientation of the occlusal plane forms the basis for teeth arrangement conducive to satisfactory esthetics and proper function.
Anteriorly, occlusal plane mainly helps in achieving esthetics and phonetics while posteriorly, it forms a milling surface. Thus, incorrect record of the occlusal plane would hamper esthetics, phonetics, and mastication. It may also affect the stability of a complete denture and ultimately result in alveolar bone resorption.
Functionally, inclination of the occlusal plane is one of the key factors governing occlusal balance. Movement of the mouth during chewing shows a harmonious relationship between the tongue, the mandibular posterior teeth, and the buccinator muscle; incorrect location of occlusal plane, results in malfunctions.
Thus it can be said that for the success of complete denture prosthesis, arranging the teeth in correct plane of occlusion is pivotal. Changes in the plane of occlusion modify the physical and functional relationship of the oral musculature leading to an alteration in function, comfort and also the esthetic value. Considering the importance of the accurate establishment of the location and the effect of the inclination of the established occlusal plane on function, esthetics and speech, a method to conform it to the occlusal plane that existed in the natural teeth seems necessary. Hence, this study was conducted to examine the significance of various soft tissue landmarks as a guide to establish the original occlusal plane as was present in the patient's natural dentition and determine the consistency of soft tissue landmarks with the occlusal plane in both sexes and check for any variation.
On the basis of the results obtained, the following conclusions can be drawn:
In maximum number of subjects, the occlusal plane was found parallel to Camper's plane with the anterior reference point as the ala of the nose and posterior reference point as the superior point of tragus.
The posterior reference point of Camper's plane showing parallelism with occlusal plane varies in males and females. In males, it is the middle point of tragus and in females the superior point of tragus.
The occlusal plane is not always parallel to the interpupillary line. Slight canting was observed.
The buccinator groove is found to be at the level of the occlusal plane in most of the subjects; independent of sex of the subject. Hence, it can be considered the most stable intra-oral landmark for orienting the occlusal plane.
Majority of the subjects showed the occlusal plane at the level of middle third of the retromolar pad area. However, due to high percentage of variation between the right and left side it cannot be considered a reliable landmark for orienting the occlusal plane.
The results of this study indicate that no single method was accurate in determining the occlusal plane. However, using more than one of these parameters along with a judicious clinical judgment, we can be very close to the ideal occlusal plane level for an edentulous patient.
It must be constantly borne in mind that the occlusal plane is determined by the dynamics of function and not by any particular static relationship. It is also advisable that occlusal plane should be selected on the basis of anatomical landmarks, esthetics, phonation, comfort and function.
We place on record our gratitude to Dr. (Maj. Gen) V. K. Sood and Dr. Sanjay Yadav.
The glossary of prosthodontic terms. J Prosthet Dent 2005;94:10-92.
Augsburger RH. Occlusal plane relation to facial type. J Prosthet Dent 1953;3:755-69.
Harper RN. The incisive papilla - the basis of a technic to reproduce the positions of key teeth in prosthodontia. J D Res 1948;27:661-8.
Foley PF, Latta GH. A study of the position of the parotid papilla relative to the occlusal plane. J Prosthet Dent 1985;53:124-6.
Rahn AO, Charles M. Heartwell: Textbook of complete dentures. 5 th ed. Wolters Kluwer Co; 1986.
Okane H, Yamashina T, Nagasawa T, Tsuru H. The effect of anteroposterior inclination of the occlusal plane on biting force. J Prosthet Dent 1979;42:497-501.
AO. Rahn and CM. Heartwell: Textbook of complete dentures. 5 th ed. Wolters Kluwer Co; 1986.
Rostamkhani F, Sahafian A, Kermani H. A Cephalometric Study on the Relationship between the Occlusal Plane, Ala-Tragus and Camper's Lines, in Patients with Angle's Class III Malocclusion. J Dent 2005;2:46-9.
Scott JE. The Scott system of precision articulation in three-dimensional occlusion. J Prosthet Dent 1952;2:362-79.
Javid NS. A technique for determination of the occlusal plane. J Prosthet Dent 1974;31:270-2.
Kazanoglu A, Unger JW. Determining the occlusal plane with the Camper's plane indicator. J Prosthet Dent 1992;67:400-501.
Santana-Penin UA, Mora MJ. The occlusal plane indicator: A new device for determining the inclination of the occlusal plane. J Prosthet Dent 1998;80:374-5.
Kokich V. Esthetics and Anterior Tooth Position: An Orthodontic Perspective Part II: Vertical Position. J Esthet Dent 1993;5:174-8.
Morley J, Eubank J. Macroesthetic elements of smile design. J Am Dent Assoc 2001;132:39-45.
Piermatti J. Tooth position in full-mouth implant restorations - a case report. Gen Dent 2006;54:209-13.
Shigli K, Chetal BR, Jabade J. Validity of soft tissue landmarks in determining the occlusal plane. J Indian Prosthodont Soc 2005;5:139-45.
Engelmeier RL. Complete denture esthetics. Dent Clin North Am 1996;40:71-84.
[Figure 1], [Figure 2], [Figure 3], [Figure 4], [Figure 5], [Figure 6], [Figure 7], [Figure 8]
[Table 1], [Table 2], [Table 3], [Table 4], [Table 5]
Summary and Conc...
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Diecut UK launches platen replacement
Finishing equipment manufacturer Diecut UK has launched the Diecut Goldline, which it says will improve safety in the diecutting sector.
According to managing director Steve Waterhouse, the machine replaces hand-fed platens, which he claims are unsafe.
While users are still able to climb into a platen, the Goldline works more like a hydraulic press, with the sheet taken through the machine using a toggle system.
Waterhouse told PrintWeek: "This is the most significant development in manual die-cutting for 90 years. With all the problems and dangers using handfed platens, this new development is big news for the industry.
"Recently there have been several issues with safety and operator usage of hand-fed platens. So for over two years we have been working with our clients and design team to develop and bring the Goldline to market."
As well as the safety element, Waterhouse said that the machine applied much more pressure than a platen and cuts paper, plastic, corrugated board, box board, display board and kiss cuts.
It is available in a number of sizes, from 890mmx640mm through to 2,100mmx1,600mm. Wider-format machines may be available in the future – although that will be at least two years away.
Waterhouse said that the price of the machine would be comparable to that of a high-end hand-fed platen. He added: "We want to give printers the chance to protect their human asset, and that is the operator."
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David Gilmour Gear Guide
Albums and tours
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Gilmour VS. Waters
Posted on June 08th 2006
Every now and then, we (my band) have these little fights or arguments over who is better; Gilmour or Waters. We (well, most of us) always end up with Gilmour and judging by the way we perform the Floyd songs, we are on Gilmour’s side… If there is such a thing as taking sides in this matter. Still, very early on we decided that we were only to perform songs from the original era.. the Waters era. Why? Both the songs and live experience was better in the 70’s.
Yesterday we got a bootleg from the Rio concert, – Waters’ opening night. I was, or we all were, excited that he had pulled out rare classics like Sheep and Fletcher’s Memorial Home (we are all huge fans of Final Cut). I don’t know what we expected, but I was (and still is) very pissed that it sounded so bad… Yes, I was pissed. Now, I know a lot of you are Waters fans. Probably as much as you like Gilmour, but get me right. I respect the man and I’m a huge fan of his work. Hey, there wouldn’t have been a Floyd without him… or a Gilmour! But, I get embarassed when I listen to his own versions of the Floyd classics. The man just can’t get it right… he never has…
OK. Before you delete my site from your bookmarks and call me a jerk, let me explain my view. To me, Gilmour has always been the true musicican in Floyd. From the very start (almost), he took charge in shaping Waters’ ideas into listenable pieces. Together with Wright and Mason, he made them into the classics we know today. Sure, Waters was the man behind most of it, but could he play? No. Could he write down the long instrumental parts? No. It’s all Gilmour and Wright. I think what Waters’ did best was to say “I like this” and “I don’t like this”. He has always been good at hearing what he wants and telling the band how to do it, but it takes a musician to make it happen…
This is also why I think his live shows differs so much from Gilmour’s way of doing things. Waters has been doing his own “thing” since the Pros and Cons tour in the mid 80’s and while I can understand that one gets caught up in the tacky 80’s way of doing things, I can’t understand why he doesn’t change things around now to sound as Floyd as possible. He is the one who travles around claiming to be the “Creative Genious of Pink Floyd”, but he sounds like a bad cover…
Gilmour has put together a band consisting of some of the finest musicians the business has to offer. Not only that, but they want to make it sound authentic and good. I don’t even think Gilmour had to tell them that. They have a vibe and feeling that surpasses everything one could have hoped for from farily young musicians. Of course it helps to have names like Phil Mazanera and Richard Wright too… So what have Waters done? It’s obvious that he is comfortable with the guys from the original Bleeding Hearts Band, because he keeps bringing them in and it sounds exactly the same as in 85. Double bass drums on Shine On. Endless “Van Halen” wanking on the guitar and not a soulful moment from any of them. Not even Waters sounds like him self… I was surprised how good he sounded on Live 8. This was not the bass player I had vitnessed the last decades. This was the good ol’ Roger. It didn’t last tho…
I know you can’t judge a band on the opening night and let alone on a bootleg, but that’s not really my point either. I was hoping Waters was so “on” the Floyd thing again (as he claims) and that he had done everything to make it sound right. Unfortunately he hasn’t… This has nothing to do with the fact that I saw Gilmour last week performing Echoes (that I am blinded). I only think that he has prooven once and for all that he has the right tools to bring on the Floyd legacy. The sad thing though (at last for me), is that I don’t think most people even care or hear the difference. They want a good show and the old classics. After all, let’s face it… Roger Waters has a bigger name than David Gilmour.
So, if you’re still reading… This “war” that has been going on since “87” has probably done more to the fans than Floyd it self. It’s like a nation voting for two persidents or “should we have this religion or this?”. Basically it’s all just stupid and ultimately it comes down to taste… which obviously one can’t argue. It seems to be a two way thing between the fans and the band too. The more the fans and press talks about the conflict, the bigger it seems to get. It’s funny to see how the tables have turned… Now it is Gilmour who doesn’t want a band. I can’t blame him and he is fortunate enought to make his own calls. Still, it’s pretty frustrating for the fans and like Mason said , – it’s pretty British too… or childish. Why can’t they just talk to each other and deal with it? Live 8 didn’t help at all it seems… And don’t tell me that it’s just a coincidence that Gilmour has added new outdoor dates too his tour and are putting out PULSE while Roger is touring. The war is still on…
Post Tagged with david gilmour, roger waters
260 Responsesso far.
You listen the music of Pink Floyd with Syd Barrett? Gilmour wasn’t there in the first 2 albums of Pink Floyd. Waters was there. And Wright and Mason. Waters, as he said, was very much marked by Syd Barrett. They wrote together first 2 albums. The music after Barrett, with Gilmour, was with the influence of Barrett’s ideas and Waters’s too. Gilmour was a great musician, but the music has the mark of Waters (inspired by Barrett in the early years). Gilmour has a great influence in the Pink Floyd music, but the original ideas was from Barrett and Waters.Don’t forget Wright and Mason.
Well, Barrett didn’t play on Saucerful. Only Jugband Blues.
Charlie Marando says:
Syd Barrett is SO overhyped. Pink Floyd’s really great music came long after Syd was gone. Gilmour, Waters and Mason wrote amazing stuff after Syd was out of the way. Syd’s songs were, honestly, somewhat juvenile & silly. Syd looked really cool (visually beautiful) and that has gone a long way to elevate his status.
If not for Syd Barret, there would never have been a Pink Floyd!!!! He was a genius who unfortunately did way too much Acid, and went somewhere you don’t come back from. No Over hype about him at all!
Peace KEITH
Peter Muscarella says:
I couldn’t agree more. The Syd Barrett stuff is just kind of ok. Floyd really hit their stride around the time Meddle came out. You can thank David Gilmour for this. I also prefer Gilmour to Waters but I will also say both were better when they worked together. That’s why people are so upset about no meaningful reunion.
Phil B says:
Sure as we all know the best stuff was produced when Dave and Roger worked together. Rogers lyrical and musical ideas were shaped into good arrangements by Dave most of the time, although not to be forgotten is Rick’s input there, too. At least up until Animals as he himself recalled in an interview.
The rest … well Dave said once “ancient Floyd history” and he hates to talk about that time :D
Julien says:
Bro what you on about. Piper at the gates of dawn was a psychedelic masterpiece, in the height of the psychedelic era. Singles like arnold Layne and see emily play are also up there. Syd Barrett was also one of the only artist that could really use British vocabulary in music while most other British bands of that time used american vocabulary, making this album extra special for many Brits
Thank you, Piper is one of my faves! Nice to see someone who has taste somewhere other than their mouth, haha!
Peace, KEITH
Let there be light.
motorcaster57 says:
Dave was already bailing during the wall because of Roger’s attitude… Roger Waters is a toxic human…The opposite of DG… Once the good work was done, Dave knew it and knew he must move on… Roger Waters has a whiney voice is an average bass player and cannot even handle an acoustic guitar… Roger was increasingly narcissistic and Dave was still full of creativity. David’s first solo record was the best solo record either of them did because the music had immense sonic space.. Music trumps lyrics.. That’s why we don’t have Poet Stars, we have rock stars… David had a beautiful voice and he sang the chrouses which are the beautiful elevating parts of PF’s music… Roger had about an octave and a half of usable vocals and was not a natural performer..He expressed his art through his lyrics although they did not speak that well to me… Dave had 3 octaves and no fear… Roger was alienated, Dave was inclusive… I was very happy that Roger was not with them and Rick Wright and Dave Gilmour could really flesh out the musical ideas and not worry to much about the lyrics…. One Slip… Terminal Frost ….. are you kidding…. These songs are sonic masterpieces… I never even learned the words… Gilmours soaring guitar lines made for arena… Not a flourish of notes strung together but a statement made with a Tele or a Strat that told us a story as we yearned for something new… I didn’t want Roger back in the band… He almost strangled it during The Wall and he did during The Final Cut… Half of the wall was unlistenable and the same for the final cut… No one creates feeling with a guitar like David Gilmour… or sings so effortlessly while doing so … It is a reflection of who he is….. It’s pretty easy to tell which side of the argument I am on…. But my favorite PF album is clearly DSOTM…. Collectively the rang the bell on that one…….
Except Pink Floyd without Waters was not the same, and of the two, Waters has had the most successful and just better solo career. If you think Waters didn’t add anything musical to the band, then how come the two albums after him are considered some of the most lackluster ones in their history?
There could be a number of reasons why Momentary and Bell aren’t considered as good as Dark Side or any of the other classic albums. I think that if you look at any band with such a long carreer, they rarely keep up with the classic early releases. They get older and change the perspective. They’re not hungry and have nothing to prove. And, although loyal, fans change taste and move on. Roger didn’t release any highlights either, apart from Amused but then again, Bell sold more. In any case, a band isn’t the same band once one of the members decides to leave. Whomever it is.
I saw PF with Roger, and twice without, and Tampa in 1977 for the Animals tour was by far the best of the 3 shows. I don’t criticize the younger generation who seems to like the Wall, and post Waters stuff the most, but I find all Floyd from the first album, with Syd, through Animals their best work. And that one album with Syd is IMO the catalyst that made Pink Floyd, and as I’ve said before, without Syd Barrett, there would have been no Pink Floyd, and I doubt any of the other members would have been popular as they became.
Yokel says:
I agree wholeheartedly with everything @motorcaster57 said in their comment.
Waters, Wright, Glimour and Mason together made some of the greatest music of all time. It is a big shame that Roger Waters seemed to have a toxic attitude that was always destined to rip the classic band line-up apart.
Roger vs David as a live musical experience, only has one winner. David’s superb playing and singing far out-performs watching anything Waters can do, it’s a near religious experience. @motorcaster57’s point is perfect – ultimately fans want Rock Stars not Poet Stars.
I’ve seen PF live at least 15 times starting in 1987 – including some oddities like the Sad Barrett tribute in 2007 (where Roger appeared at the same event but performed separately), Live 8 in 2005 (I was so privileged to finally see that classic line-up play live) and the Silver Clef Award Winners Concert at Knebworth 1990.
I have seen Roger solo 3 times and David solo 3 times (including when David Bowie guested at the Royal Albert Hall and sang Roger’s bits of Comfortably Numb). @motorcaster57’s point on Roger’s singing voice and musicianship is totally correct, Roger struggles to sing and he’s average at best on acoustic guitar, although it’s always nice to hear him play bass on the old PF numbers.
David Lomax says:
You don’t hear Waters singing any Gilmour penned numbers at shows.. Gilmour otherwise .
Well, yes you do. Run Like Hell, Dogs and, Comfortably Numb which I believe is the climax on all of Waters’ shows. All of these was written by Gilmour and he brought them into the band.
One reason why Roger tends to stick to his own songs is because he can’t sing the songs that David Gilmour sang. On the last tour, he had Jon Carrin and others singing Dogs and other songs that Gilmour sung. On Roger’s last solo album, he hardly sung he pretty much read the parts. I love Roger and I give him a lot of credit for resurrecting much of the Animals LP on his last tour, but his voice is pretty much gone. Furthermore, he no longer writes music that sounds like Pink Floyd (although his lyrics are still very powerful).. He hasn’t since the mid ’80’s.
Mike Louden says:
After Rodger Waters ran the ball to the 5 yard line, david Gilmore ran it in for the winning score. Both made music history. Both stallions! Wasn’t enough room for waters ego unfortunately
Where do you read that this was the case? Has Gilmour dismissed the claims Waters made about him and Wright keeping Waters down? Roger left because Wright wasn’t a helpful member anymore, and Gilmour was too soft to do anything, Wright even admitted to being a splinter in the group, how come everyone blames Waters?
David Gilmore picked up the ball and ran it in for the winning touchdown. Enough said.
Luca Giordano says:
Two points of view. You can try too make it sound as authentic as possible…. but the risc is that you become your own tributeband and perhaps bored.
Or you can try two give it a twist, change it around and keep yourself and audiencies on their toes…. with the risc of rewriting the original too a lesser version or making tacky judgement calls (vanhalen solo’s)
I would say that treating the song as a living thing is good but having said that, I like Gilmours’ shows better…..
ultimately there is no right or wrong….
you’re probably right, but if waters couln’t write down the long instrumentals parts how did he manage to write that opera about the french revolution ?
Lynde Smith says:
I loved it totally agree. David is awesome and roger scares me haha
Eh, no. Waters wrote all the lyrics and 90% of the music on dsotm, wywh and animals. I love the other guys and they contributed to the sound of Pink Floyd. But Waters is and will always be the aritect behind the band.
Endre says:
Simply no. He did not write 90% of it. As Bjørn also wrote on this subject before, credits is a tricky beast. Writing and producing credits is about who earns what amount of money, in what capacity they do stuff on the album. I have read and seen as good as all there is to read/watch on documentaries and interviews from the band and producers/mixers involved with Pink Floyd. They all played, rehearsed and threw out ideas and riffs together before the Animals album. But the guy sparking the initial idea or riff that evolved into the final song usually get the main writing credit.
Waters started to take full control in the start of the Animals album. You can clearly hear the shift in music direction, wich then continued on and manifested itself completly by the time they started on the album The Wall. And if you listen to both Final Cut and The Wall, the structure and soundscape are pretty much the same. The Wall was Waters writing 90%. Final Cut was 100% Waters.
You can tell the differense in how the albums feel. Division bell and endless river sounds alot more like wywh and dsotm in its structure and flow. Endless river actually sounds very close to some of the long instrumental parts on shine on. It’s pretty evident who made pink floyd sound like ‘classic pink floyd’. And its even more evident when you go to their live shows. But waters was a creative force. He did contribute alot on all those albums. He was the main driving force behind the consepts and themes of the albums, he wrote alot of the music and also contributed 100% involved with all the lyrics from dsotm and onwards. So yes, waters contributed ALOT, but not 90%.
Somebody needs to do their homework. 90% of the music … simply ridiculous.
I did do my homework. 90% of the music waters wrote. Do your homework.
Roger wrote just about all the lyrics between Dark Side and Final Cut.
Roger had initial ideas for the concept of the albums in this period but the concept on Dark Side, WYWH and Animals in particular, was developed further by the band.
Roger did bring musical ideas into the band for all of the albums between Dark Side and Wall but all of the material was worked out and arranged by the band during rehearsals and touring. Dark Side was very much a band effort. WYWH and Animals feature music that was written largely on the Dark Side tour and arranged by the band. David and Rick had a huge impact on both WYWH and Animals musically, with chord progressions and arrangements.
Wall was largely Waters but it also had huge input from producer Bob Ezrin and composer Michael Kamen. Rick and Mason was very much left out, while David did arrange several of the songs in addition to bringing Young Lust, Comfortably Numb and Run Like Hell into the sessions.
Final Cut is very much a joint collaboration between Roger and Kamen. David and Nick was taken on board as session musicians. Rick was not a part of the band.
All music prior to Dark Side was very much a band effort.
All of this can be verified by listening to available demos, bootleg live recordings and reading books and interviews with the band.
lapelcelery says:
Bjorn, you may have more info on this than I do. I always hear that Dave brought C. Numb to the wall sessions, but I’ve never seen any evidence that he brought anything other than the chords and melody for the chorus before the others heard it.
I know Dave has released the demo he brought to the sessions, and that contains only these parts – the verse only appears as early as the band demos as far as I’m aware.
I’ve always been of the opinion that the verse music sounds pure Waters, particularly with the emphasis on the bass. Does anyone have any more info on this?
I’ve only heard David’s demo that he recorded for his 1978 solo album. As far as I know, he brought it to the Wall session and Roger pretty much turned it into Comf Numb. Hard to tell how they worked on it in the studio, there are lots of “in progress” material but I think it was very a much a Waters song after David presented the initial demo. They apparently fought about the mix but from what I understand that’s minor changes in the levels.
This debate should be really simple. If you think The Wall/Final Cut is Pink Floyds masterpieces, then clearly Waters is the ‘creative leader and boss’. If you think DSOTM and WYWH are the best, then Wright/Gilmour must be the way to go. You can hear the same musical landscape on dsotm, wywh and Division Bell, Endless River. Also in David’s recent solo work and live performances. It’s Pink Floyd through and through.
A good idea in itself isn’t enough to create good music. Music is, after all, about music. Not words or creative ideas in itself. And thats the direction, a Waters dominant Floyd, was heading. Dark, bleak and depressive.The truth is, alot of other people in and around the band had alot more influence on these records, than Waters wants us to believe. Bob Ezrin had alot of creative input on the wall. Gilmour shaped the tunes. He added texture and extended musical pieces to make it fit together as a whole piece.
And as Gilmour so eloquently put it “Roger never had any success with anything he had full creative control over”
ojay says:
To me Waters was the creative talent and the rest were his backing band I only have to listen to the crap Pink fraud put out after Waters left to reinforce that theory.
I love Gilmour, Mason and Wright as musicians but creatively they bore the pants off me.
Don’t get me started on Polly.
I agree that I have heard Waters do some Floyd tunes at live shows and they were not as good as Floyd, with the exception of ‘The Wall tour’ which I felt that the only element missing was Gilmour’s vocals.
I know I only speak for myself but hey that’s what makes life interesting.
Don’t hate debate.
In response to Ojay, other than 2 or 3 songs (which are ok), the music on Roger Waters’ solo albums is boring and sounds like bad 80’s music. I hear none of the Pink Floyd style creativity that one hears in SOYCD, Welcome to the Machine, Time, WYWH, Have a Cigar, Dogs, Sheep, etc. 1) One could argue that it is the overall arrangement by Pink Floyd that makes their songs special and there is a lot of truth in that claim. Even on the songs that bear only Roger’s name (minus the stripped down acoustic numbers), these songs would have never been Pink Floyd songs if it wasn’t for the contributions of Wright and Gilmour., For example, would Money have been the same if it wasn’t for Gilmour’s guitar? 2) One could also argue that Roger lost his musical muse when he left the band. (IMO, He started losing it after The Wall.) Most of the great composers write their best material in a period lof a decade or less and the 70’s were when Roger was most prolific. While Momentary Lapse and the Division Bell may not be on par with DSOTM or WYWH, songs like “Sorrow”, “Marooned”, and “High Hopes” are definitely Pink Floyd classics. I don’t see how any true Pink Floyd could call these songs boring. On the other hand, if you think the lyrics are the most important part of the song, I can understand your affinity for Roger’s solo career. However, Gilmour and Wright were the Pink Floyd’s musical tour de force and they made Pink Floyd relevant again after The Wall.
Seth Heaster says:
I definitely think Gilmour is better. Waters sounds really bad without the rest of the band. His name that he tours with him is just awful. I was watching a rig rundown of the guitars, and his main guitar was a Les Paul. I was just like “A Les Paul?!? As a main guitar for Floyd?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?” And it always makes me mad how either 1) the band is just a really bad cover band, 2) he purposefully messes with the the songs, or 3) he wants to get away from his Floyd background. But if he wants number 3, he’s not doing it right, as well as he always claimed/claims that he is Pink Floyd. Don’t get me wromng, I like his lyrics, but the true emotion comes from Gilmours guitars, Richard’s careful movements in the keys, and Mason’s ability to feel the song and develop a drum fill perfect for the mood.
Glumonion says:
I’ve been a Pink Floyd fan since the wonderful sounds of Echo,s came willowing out of my brothers sickly sweet smoke filled room in 1972. The best albums by far are those between 1970 and 1977 (Atom heart to Animals). Personal favourites are Wish You Were Here and Meddle.
For me there were four important components of Pink Floyd. Roger Waters provided the strength and substance.
David Gilmour the Musicallity.
Richard Wright provided the gorgeous texture that was uniquely Pink Floyd.
Nick Mason was the rhythm and the catalyst that brought the whole thing together.
Working together they were awsome, working individually they were a pale shadow of their united selves. You only had to go back to the studio part of Ummagumma to realise this.
The trouble started when they asked ‘which one is Pink’. They should have listened to Ummagumma at that point to confirm that only together they were Pink Floyd.
Fa says:
I agree with you mostly. Fan of Pink Floyd since I’m 14. I think Waters is like the strengh of the band and Gilmour and Wright are like the harmony. Without them it wouldn’t happen. Without Water wouldn’t happen either. I was never a fan of “The Piper at the Gates of Dawn”, Gilmour wasn’t in there… so it is easy to see his legacy. Echoes is a good example of these 4 together doing a masterpiece. Sad that Waters didn’t let the band go farther or have the others participate more (Animals and The Wall could be even better). Anyways, I was to a Roger Waters concert and I enjoyed every second (I knew it would never be like Pink Floyd) but it is the closest experience I could get. I hope to see Gilmour in the future.
mnanda says:
Obviously opinions vary. Personally my favorites are the last 4 albums waters and gilmour did together – dark side, animals, wish you were here, the wall. It was dark side that rogers commented they had finally learned to use their chisels properly and this time did it right. I couldn’t agree more. Everything before that, especially the syd barret era, I could just not get into any of that stuff. Obscured by clouds was ok, the next best runner up, and Floyd in Pompeii has one very good song. But otherwise, all the early stuff is no comparison at all. It’s like they were just experimenting and doing all kinds of whacky stuff rather than making real good music, I mean come on – a song with a dog barking ?? But then suddenly with dark side they went from tinkering to lengendary song making.
And after rogers left, their solo music was never nearly as good as Pink floyd. All the solo albums have a few hilights but simply cannot compare to the 4 best floyd albums. Would be awesome if they got back together, but i suspect even if they did (especially with wright gone) and put together another album, it just might not be quite as good as it was. The magic of pink floyd song writing is probably not only the combination of the individuals, but also the era of time, or whatever it may be, perhaps planetary influenes or something. We can see that the music of the 80’s changed from the 70’s, and by the 90’s the creative magic of soul touching songs was practically gone. The whole jaunder of classic rock pretty much ended in the 80’s when van halen changed to sammy hagar.
It’s almost like we’re kind of stuck listening to just music from 30+ years ago. Sure there’s a few catchy tunes that come and go but all the modern music just comes and goes, nothing lengendary and long lasting like Floyd.
But what I’d like to know mostly is how the pink floyd songs came together. Each song may vary and it would be very intersting for musicians to know how exactly each song evolved – did it start with lyrics, a chord progression, keyboards or what. I have searched on this topic and cannot find much details. There’s a few mentions only for instance Crazy Diamond gilmour mentioned that it was the 4 opening notes he stumbled up first which then inspired waters with the lyrics. And with the wall it is said that waters basically came in with the whole thing already written and when he asked the others what they had written, they had nothing prepared.
This is what I’d really like to know – what exactly did waters already have written when he introduced the concept of the wall to the band ? Are we talking just the lyrics, are we talking lyrics and chords or what ? Waters was primarily the bass player, but you do see him on documentaries or on the live performance of ‘mother’ where he plays acoustic guitar. Did he write the songs with acoustic guitar, come up with the basic chord structure and lyrics ? O did he write the song on bass. Did he use a metronome ? How exactly did the different instruments come together, one after the other, simultaneously, track by track, or by an improvised live jam ? Some albums of various bands are first composed with all the instruments, and then lastly the vocals are written. Then sometimes it starts with vocals, etc, etc.
We would need to know all this and know exactly who contributed what. But I don’t see anyone talking about this (unless I missed something in this very long thread). What we need is a documentary where we interview waters, gilmour and the sound engineers and walk through each song and break it down. Get each of their takes on how it came together. That would be most interesting and very educational musically for those of us who are interested in song writing.
This is widely documented in different books, interviews etc. There is enough info out there to figure out who did what. Keep in mind though… Pink Floyd, like most bands back in the days, worked out their songs together. Either in the studio, during soundchecks or live shows. It was often a long process of everyone chipping in, adding ideas and their sound.
Credits on the album cover often refer to the initial idea but Roger’s ideas were often some lyrics, bits of chords and perhaps a very rough demo of him playing acoustic. Money is a great example of how one of his very crude ideas became the song we know, after everyone added something. Not only specific pieces and ideas but playing the song together also makes you realize what’s working and what’s not, so the song also evolves naturally from just jamming and playing.
Credits is also about politics and money. The Wall for instance, is mostly credited to Roger, but while he did have the concept and indeas for most of the songs, the versions and albums that we know, is largely a group effort with a lot of input from David, Bob Ezrin and Michael Kamen in particular.
Same goes for a solo album. Neither Amused to Death nor On an Island, or any of the other albums, are just Roger or David. It’s a group effort between them, the producer and all the musicians playing.
Again, we know a lot about who had the idea, who wrote the demo and lyrics and who contributed what but between all that, there is a group effort that is hard to pin down and again, that’s rarely reflected in the album’s credits.
So I read most of this article and I couldn’t finish it. Let me start off by saying Gilmore as much as I agree how absolutely incredible he is and I love his music. Waters was in the band from the very beginning. David was lucky to have the chance to fill in guitar for Sid’s issues. Waters was part of the writing from the beginning to help shape there psychedelic sound.
Waters wrote most of there best albums. I have seen him the last 3 times he came to the states. If you watch the documentary’s you can see just how extremely involved Roger is with the writing. Roger is the Lennon of the group and David/ wright are the McCartney’s of the band. They all serve a important part in the band! Just remember the waterless Floyd though still great was not nearly as edgy as with Waters.
Agreed. If you were lucky enough to attend a concert from Water’s 2017 “Us + Them” tour, it didn’t take long to realize who the master behind Pink Floyd was. Wow. Just wow. The medium + the message.
I was lucky enough to see Us and Them and yes I agree mostly. Although I do think Gilmour and the rest had a lot to do with the pearly perfection of Pink Floyd. You would have noted that Roger has not changed much in the music when he plays PF today. He is sharp enough to know perfection when he hears it. .
I can see the Lennon/ McCartney comparison loosely. Roger while strong musically can be a bit dry like Lennon and Gilmour a bit soft at times like McCartney. Together they sound perfect! Interestingly (and probably no coincidence, I think Roger may have figured this out!) Roger’s new record with the very mellow, talented, warm touch of Jonathan Wilson (looking a bit like a young Gilmour at first glance)creates a nice balance. After PF Waters has played with greatness like Jeff Beck and Clapton and while good it wasn’t up to Floyd standard. The new record to me is of PF caliber.
Well anyhow, they are only human and you can see how Rogers talents and vision were a force of their own. How could a creative force that strong be contained!? He couldn’t. And good for the others for standing their ground. Ironically the Waters show made me appreciate Gilmour ( and of course Roger and all the band) even more. I say bless them all and they should do what makes them happy! I’m thankful for what they have done and are doing. They all seem to live up to the message in their music doing lots of charity work and promoting peace.
The Us and Them show really was just WOW. The message, the medium , the music. Roger is a kind (listen to the lyrics on his new record! OMG!) lovely man who is undeniably genius. I think Dave is too in his own way. Sometimes its not the quantity but the quality of contributions. Ever had a soup without seasoning?! Small things can make a big difference.
I heard Roger’s US & Them Tour was an awesome show although I heard that some of the Trump fanatics couldn’t handle “Pigs 3 Different Ones”. lol Unfortunately, I had some sick parents at the time and was unable to attend. (The closest he came to me was a 4 hour drive.) However, the video clips really make me wish I was there (pardon the pun). I only hope that Gilmour will do a final tour where 80% of the material is classic Pink Floyd. As for a Waters-Gilmour reunion, I’d love to see them do a final tour together. However, I can’t see them doing a final album together. They are too old, too different, and would kill each other fighting in the studio. :)
I have been alloys fan since animals( I am 58 this year) and admired the genius behind the music. Roger is a great writer but as you said Gilmour made the magic. I know they are gonna celebrate 50 years of Floyd but I don’t see the children playing nicely and it will be a shame I won’t see them together again
In my mind, what far too many Floyd fans fail to realise, is that Pink Floyd was NEVER about the individual band members. Floyd was never about a “Mick Jagger or John Lennon” type of band. It was all about the music and what the music made us feel. End of story. “Fans” saying Floyd post Waters era is fake Floyd is just pure nonsense! If we wanna follow these mindsets, Floyd post Syd era, is also not the true Pink Floyd. How can people even think such crap out loud?!? Floyd was doing fine after Syd got mad. And Floyd did just fine after Waters left the band. Some like Syd`s era the most…some like the 70`s era, and some like the post Waters era the best. It`s all about taste and it is ALL Pink Floyd. Nothing of it is fake or a forgery. Personally I like the DSOTM and WYWH era the most. It has a magical feel to it, because of the perfect blend between Waters lyrics and Dave & Ricks music and melodies. But Division Bell is probably my favourite album. Throw away all knowledge of wich band member I like the most and who did what on this and that, that album is just wonderful musically. High Hopes and Marooned are probably some of Floyds best tunes.
But this thread is about the individuals after all ;) So I`m just gonna put in my two cents on the matter. Just a couple of facts I need to adress:
Roger Waters left Pink Floyd on his own damn free will. David, Nick or Rick didn`t have anything to do with that. Waters thought HE was Pink Floyd. Fact: He never was. He was only a part of Pink Floyd. 1/4th infact. If Roger would have stayed in the band, none of this hatred crap that followed for years would have happened. That is Warer`s fault. Period! Waters had NO rights to decide when Floyd was to be declared finnished.
I have read a ton of interviews from almost every singel person involved with producing an album with the Floyds, and every singel one of them says exactly the same, about how Waters forcefully grabbed control of the band and making it almost impossible to contribute anything creative to the records post the Animals album.
People calling Momentary Lapse a forgery? Divison bell is just a fake Floyd rehash of the same old Floyd formula? Well…by that mindset, then Shine on must be a fake carbon copy of Echoes? Or the song Mother, a dreadful fake formula copy of Wish You Were Here? Why isn`t anybody saying that??
Fact is, all of the shit that happened since the band fell apart in the 70`s was Roger`s fault. None of it would have happened if he didn`t go “Stalin” on the band. Read interviews from Alan Parker and Bob Ezrin to get more insight on how that story really was.
Fact is, Gilmour and Wright made Floyd sound like Pink Floyd. Everything Roger did alone, after the Wall sounded like a great band trying to sound like Pink Floyd. But it still feels like a cover band. I attended both Roger`s the Wall shows here in Norway, it it was spectacular! It was awesome, and it floored me! I love Roger`s work. I admire his writings, but he is not Mr.Pink Floyd by himself alone. David on the other hand, has always sounded more Floydìsh. It feels natural. It doesn`t feel forced or fake. I can not really put my finger on it, but it feels authentic.
Imagine the Water`s Pros and Cons album under the Pink Floyd name. Think it would have had The Walls popularity and legendary status? I think not. It is a mess of an album. No real structure musically and lyrically. And I feel the same way about Amused to death. I love Roger`s lyrics on it, and I really love bits and pieces of the muical parts on it, but it drags on for too long. It`s too much about the concept and the words, Too much sound effects and background noises. It doesn`t feel as structurally impressive as The Wall. And in my mind that is what Warers lacks. He is all about the grand scheme and the big crazy ideas, and not too interested in the music and the melodies. If I wanna read poems or a great story, I buy a book. If I wanna listen to music, I sit down listening to a record. You can take away lyrics and still call it music, but you can not take away the music and still call it a song. There should always be a balance between the lyrics and the music. That is why DSOTM and WYWH are the two most iconic Floyd albums of all time. It was the perfect blend.
Craig James says:
Waters has ALWAYS been overrated …………..he hasn’t been able to put out a single – single that is listenable without Gilmour and Wright.
Ray Stoll says:
May I comment?
Drone says:
ive seen both seperately several times and i can say that both are great solo, but together they are the best band ever assembled. Its one of those yin and yang things. Maybe one day I will get to see them play a full show together. I was 6 the last time they toured and i think they owe it to their legion of younger fans to bury the hatchet and do one last tour together. Perhaps a 40th anniversary Animals tour? I think its the best album ever made.
John L. Fletcher says:
I think you make a terrific comment, BUT, your conclusory remarks are disappointing. Without Gilmour, Wright and Mason, there is NO PINK FLOYD, period. Roger cannot carry that on his shoulders no matter how great a writer he was. Without G, W &M, Waters is another Bob Dylan. I love Roger AND David and don’t really care who is the better known (Roger for touring the Wall solo for so long…). Without both of them and the other two, there is no PF.
PinkRules says:
Waters=good lyrics
Gilmour=good tune
That’s what I think
Jon Rogers says:
Wow, long thread. in my little opinion, I have to go back to the beginning. Waters is a lyrical genius (notably inspired by Syd Barrett) Since his writing style was developed when he had to take over the job of song writer for a band that already had a style and a following that Barrett created. When his songwriting took shape he was definitely the better songwriter. His lyrics were colored with depth and emotions. He painted pictures with words. However equally notable is the dramatic change that happened as Gilmour became more of a contributor. Gilmour is the better musician. His guitar work changed the band. He took the basic elements of a song and created the brilliant landscapes for the words. And it is impossible to leave Wright or Mason out, they carried the original psychedelic theme of the band through the transition from the PF of the 60’s to what became the PF that left its mark on the world. They provided the canvas and gave the music its theme.
I believe it is the perfect combination of personalities, talents, events and influences that created the sound. It was the frustrating battle of egos forced to work together as a band that created the atmosphere. Finally it was the collective genius of Waters ideas and lyrics with Gilmours musical talent, mixed with Barretts legacy, an ever-present influence that resulted in some of the best music ever recorded. In the end they are both great. But none of them could ever capture the magic of Pink Floyd without the other. Sadly for all of us who love their music, Pink Floyd died with Richard Wright. Although he gets less credit, he was the original member that tied all of these things together.
Michael Connelly says:
Get a grip folks!! We have had the best of both worlds for a long time.
Roger Waters was the main lyricist and driving force of the band and Gilmour and Wright were the sound of Pink Floyd ( inc Mason )!! Let’s not forget it was Roger’s decision to leave the band publicly in 1985 and Gilmour and Mason decided to continue with the band,there is no doubt that Roger’s lyrics and driving force were pivotal to the band from Meddle to The Wall ( but the input from Gilmour, Mason and Wright were just as important, granted Wright did not contribute much on Animals or The Wall ). The combination of all 4 members WERE the sound of Pink Floyd. Sure The Final Cut was a Water’s solo album, sure A Momentary Lapse Of Reason was a Gilmour solo album, but we should be glad to have them both! These albums from another band would be hailed as a classic or very good ( but admittedly not to the highest standard of the band, but very good nonetheless). I have to say that Amused To Death is a personal favourite of mine as is On An Island, sure About Face and Radio Kaos sound dated and they are 80’s sounding albums, but tell me is that a bad thing?
I say this to you all, be thankful of the body of work created by the band over the last 50 years ( inc The Endless River ). I am eternally greatful to Syd Barrett, Roger Waters, David Gilmour, Richard Wright & Nick Mason with providing me with the best music which has been with me through my life’s journey and all the memories of Floyd concerts and solo tours over the years, long live Pink Floyd!!!
Endre Knutsen says:
Amen! Well written :)
John Lorenzo says:
I agree, very well written. Thank you, I feel the same.
KAOS83 says:
You have summed this up “Perfectly”!! I have been a Huge Pink Floyd Fan for over 40 years, I always liked the whole Band, but when it came down to picking a member as my favorite, it was always Syd, then Roger as my favorites. Once the Final Cut was finished, which I didn’t like instantly, but grew to like as I listened….well, other than about 3 Songs that I considered instantly “Catchy”…..even when the Fighting began, went public, I had been on Waters side so much in my young years, that I just naturally went with him……But, as I’ve aged, and have looked at things with a more Mature and Understanding Mind, I can see that Dave Gilmour really did “Shape, Put it All Together-Musically etc….even playing Roger’s Bass Lines so many times……David just was really much more the “Pink” in Pink Floyd, that I always presumed was Waters. It comes down to, I don’t care so much in the arguments, who wrote this, or that, or the most…..but rather what the Finished Product “Sounds Like”!! And David Gilmour’s Solo Works, as well as Pink Floyd without Roger, led by Dave, sounds so much More like “Pink Floyd” than anything that Roger has written in his Solo works…..and when either of them, with their respective Bands, has gone out and played the Pink Floyd Material, David Gilmour’s Work always sound Way more like Pink Floyd!! Not even close!! It’s amazing that David has had so much more to do with the Overall Sound of Pink Floyd, that goes under the Radar by casual fans…Roger knows this is True too, and that was killing his Huge Ego all these years…..But I have truly come to be honest with myself, and see for myself just how much so David Gilmour made up of Pink Floyd….Vocally…..Musically…..and Pulling it all Together for that Perfect Sound….that he and Roger wanted!! And also how much of a role Rick Wright had in the Pink Floyd sound so much Input musically also….till Roger kinda worked him out of it all…..David being so much more Humble, and Gentleman made it so much easier for the Remaining Members of the Floyd to Go at it Together, and Rightfully go on as intended as “Pink Floyd”!!! I am so Happy and Grateful that they did!!! Amazing Albums that they put out Together!! I still like Roger, but he’s not all or what I had believed he was, in my younger days……….
Waw, i still can’t believe i’ve manage to read all posts. I must admit while the actual (mature) discussion of this is fun, i was getting really fed up with a lot of the childish, Roger fanboy worship like and uninformed attitude on some of the posters here, but i’ve made it thru.
I’m not even going to get into the discussion itself as it’s been discussed to death and with a lot of great arguments.
All i can say for my personal experience is, i first got into PF in the 80’s, my first record was the Delicate Sound of Thunder (vinyl) witch i still have and love. I’ve must have played that record hundreds of times. So for a long time that WAS the PF sound. Songs like “Learning to Fly”, “On the Turning Away”, and “Sorrow” will forever stay with me. Than came the Division Bell and Pulse, witch i also loved but feel it lacked a bit of the energy of DSOT.
I new a bit of the story of Roger at the time, but for me back then he was just a bass player, so i didn’t understand what all the fuss was about him leaving, they still sounding amazing,
Only years later i’ve started to listen to the earlier records and really started to understand the massive contribution Roger had given to the band, as well as David’s and Rick’s, and actually understanding what they where about.
So i guess the period that you where first exposed to PF has a lot of influence on what period you prefer.
I personalty love all of PF eras, SYD era, Waters era and post Waters era. As much as i love all the 70’s records i cant imagine a Floyd without some songs from AMLOR and TDB.
And i prefer the Shine On played on the 80’s and 90’s to the versions played on the 70’s, as much of a blasphemy that may seem to some.
All this being said for me is shocking to read some comments about Gilmour saying “all he did was make the solos, or the arrangements or whatever…”
All he did..????? And you think that’s nothing compared to Roger part??? What is it with some people and lyrics? Yes Roger made most of the lyrics and they are great, but the biggest part of the Floyd “sound” was David and Rick.
They have all contributed equally for what was PF, each one on what they did best, Roger with lyrics and ideas and Dave and Rick with music and arrangements, both things equally important.
As a musician myself i will take a song with weak lyrics and great music over a song with great lyrics and poor music any time. I liked Roger’s In the flesh gigs, but i would’t take it over Pulse or DSOT by any means.
So there you have another opinion, to prove that apart from actual facts, taste is always subjective and there are no wrights or wrongs.
What is a song without music? A poem. I grew up in the 70’s and the first PF album I bought was DSOTM. Loved it! Thought it was amazing. Also, loved WYWH and Animals. At that time, I thought the world revolved around Roger Waters although I recognized the importance of Gilmour and Wright. Then “The Wall Came Out” and this was where the music began secondary to the lyrics and the concept. IMO, it should have never been a double album. Half of the songs on The Wall were great (ie all of the Gilmour tunes). As for the remaining songs, I thought most of them were good to ok, but some of them just SUCKED. I can’t stand the music in “Vera”, “Bring The Boys Back”, “Waiting for The Worms”, and “Outside the Wall”. I thought these songs sounded nothing like Pink Floyd. I thought they sounded like were written by some crooner from the 50’s. Then the Final Cut came out and I cried. To this day, I won’t listen to it. IMO, it sounds nothing like the Pink Floyd or the Roger Waters I once adored. It seems like Roger’s musical taste changed considerably during The Wall and drastically during The Final Cut. I realize that things must change and that progressive rock was on its way out when The Wall was released, but Roger’s music began to sound old and dated. So when Roger left the band, I was happy. When Roger said Pink Floyd was a spent force, I think he was talking about himself. However, that doesn’t erase the outstanding contributions he made to the band in the 70’s. Pink Floyd was a great band and a great band is more than a single part, or for that matter, the sum of its parts.
fred quin says:
Pink Floyd is over and there is no more.
All there is now, is what was.
Emmett says:
“Double bass drums on Shine On” “Since 85”
Dude, he didn’t even play Shine On until 99, and I seem to recall his drummer, Graham Broad, as only having ONE bass drum. Nick Mason on the other hand uses two. And I’d hardly label the playing of Eric Clapton, Snowy White, Andy Fairweather-Low or Jeff Beck as “endless Van Halen wanking”.
Also, judging his playing and version of things by the quality of a bootleg? Really? Go listen to a live Gilmour bootleg from 85 and tell me it’s any better.
Not bashing Gilmour, but this is a bit skewed.
Bjorn, who played the fretless bassline on Hey You? I assume that Roger didn’t do a lot of the bass on the albums, but that’s such a great fretless line, I wondered if it was him, David, or someone Bob Ezrin chose?
PS, Bob Ezrin did such an awesome job with the guitars of Steve Hunter, and Dick Wagner on the live album, “The Alice Cooper Show”. Have you heard the album? Possibly the best sounding live album I’ve heard production wise. Also the same two guitarists on Lou Reeds Rock ‘N’ Roll Animal! Also Ezrin produced.
[That’s Gilmour :) He played a Charvel fretless P-bass I think. – Bjorn]
To clarify my point, IMO, most older fans prefer the Pink Floyd that existed from Animals, back to Arnold Layne. And my personal experience shows that after the ’77 tour, they became a completely different band. In ’77, they were exactly what I expected, and more, in ’88, I really didn’t get it, but in ’94, because the set was mostly Roger era material, the show itself was a spectacle to behold, with many musicians of great talent, and a gazzilion dollar stage show, one couldn’t help but enjoy it. However, it didn’t hold a candle to Tampa ’77, and the Animals tour. A horse of an entirely different color, with the same name. A great band? Oh yes!, Pink Floyd, by no means the Floyd I grew up with. I will say no more on the subject, but would love to hear the opinions of those lucky enough to have seen both eras.
Peace, Love, and Pinks,( Three Different Ones!)
[Well, one can always argue that a band was better in a certain period but this will almost always be a subjective perspective. Our experience and perception of music, and art in general, is very often tied to a specific point in our lives. Pink Floyd’s career span over 40 years and both them as a band and we, as the listener, will change over that period. I think this is important to keep in mind when music is discussed. It’s not just the case of whether or not a band changes but also if you have changed. And you certainly have. This is also why younger people will have a stronger relationship to their later catalogue then people who discovered them in the early days. – Bjorn]
@Stephen, regardless of our differences off the playing field, you hit the nail squarely on the head with your post.
Peace, and forgiveness, Keith
I don’t think bad mouthing any of these talented men is of any value either. However, for us older Floyd fans, IMO the band stopped being Pink Floyd the minute Roger kicked Rick out. Everything recorded by either camp since Animals has been a mere shadow of a once great band. I get that most born after around ’79 love mlor, and db, and fc, but other than a handful of songs on all of those albums put together, there’s not much Pink Floyd about them. I saw the Animals tour in Tampa, Fla in ’77, MLOR in ’88, and DB in ’94, both at RFK, and while the DB tour was very good,( almost all old material), the ’88 show I didn’t recognize a song, and compared to Tampa, both shows didn’t come close to the magic of that! It’s like comoaring Meddle, or WYWH, to MLOR! There us no comparison!!!
But I don’t disparage either camp, but to me, Floyd ceased to exist in a slow, steady fashion between ’77, and ’80.
Peace all, Keith
Brad Roller says:
Why can’t people just love every single floyd version and love every single member of the band like I do? I LOVE syd barret floyd, I love everything after syd left, from saucer full to the final cut, then from momentary to division bell and I’m going to love The Endless River! I love Pink Floyd regardless of the version. Each member was brilliant in their own way, btw Rog, Gilmour is not a liar he is a straight forward person and he had every right to use the band name. If you think of Gilmour in such a way, why are you on a site dedicated to him? Sorry Bjorn I just had to put my 2 cents in. Lol You’ll never hear me bad mouth any of the members.
@ Leftwhinge
It is not a question of members changing but who has influence on the writing of the music. When David hires on other performers today they are not there to be an equal part of the decision making in the musical creation. They are paid musicians to come and fulfill the musical desires of one person David Gilmour, therefore they are merely an extension off of 1 creator. Pink Floyd had already gone through a transition when Syd left, getting David on board was an amazing stroke of luck but at that point they all were working as a team to create one sound together. Even when one took the lead as with the Wall and Final Cut there was still stylistic and creative input from the others in the band.
If David were to find new members and give the new members equal say in the new direction of the music it would certainly undergo another evolution (perhaps better perhaps worse subjectively speaking). As for now I prefer to look at post Waters Pink Floyd as “David and Friends” as it is primarily Davids solo work, some of which Wright and Mason were a part of. In this way I find that Floyd has stagnated as there is no longer give and take between creative forces but just one persons vision. David is certainly one of the greats in rock history but he was made great by being part of the Floyd as well. Without the history of Syd and the writing duo of Waters and Gilmour he perhaps would never have made it to such an elevated status. It is pointless to argue since we can not know paths which were not taken but certainly Roger was a key stone in the sound of Floyd as was Gilmour, Wright and Mason.
In short. David hiring other performers is not any where near to the same idea as Syd being replaced as Syd was replaced in a way that all musicians still held creative license in the music and by chance these 4 musicians created something far greater than any one of them could have created on their own.
Carolyn, let’s get dinner.
I have a lot more respect now for Roger’s Pink Floyd imput, and Roger himself. However, from almost the very begining of Pf i fell in love with David Gilmour’s music; soulful playing, sound and voice. Also, though maybe it is irrelevent, his person. He is as fine a man as they come. Yes, i became a fan of PF, because of David or i may never have become a fan at all ??? To me, PF is David Gilmour. Never forgetting Roger, Richard, Nick or Syd. Take Care xx
Rog says:
By the way, they even put balls to the inflatable pig so that they could use it. Talking about sincere artists.
I think there’s no discussion that Roger was the one who wrote most of the songs. To say that he didn’t give credit to the others is ridiculous. Why should anyone give credit for a song that he wrote himself. I have seen in one of the above posts that since Roger didn t write the keyboard and the guitar parts for some songs, these should have been credited to the other members. It is clear to me that you have no idea how songwriting credits work. If the guy came up with the chords, melody and lyrics that s enough to grant him a writing credit. Gilmour apart from the few songs he co-wrote with Roger, only wrote the solos and arranged the songs so why should Waters have given him a writing credit? Songwriters needs musicians or session men to shape up their songs but it doesn t mean that they have to give them credit for the writing of the song when all they did is arranging it. I think the credits on the Pink Floyd’s albums are true. It’s Gilmour who has been going around, ever since they broke up, spreading this nonsense and contradicting many of his interviews of the late 70s and early 80s where he was saying that Roger was the one who wrote most of the songs. So in 87, he went to great lengths to discredit Roger’s massive contributions and work in the band by spreading lies when he has always admitted himself that he was never the most prolific of songwriters. Take Dark side of the Moon. He only has 3 songwriting credits. All he did was playing well and writing good solos, that’s it. The two post-waters albums have few great tunes and the majority of the songs lack substance and edge. They are really dull. Nothing happens really. The only one that stands out is High Hopes. But i am starting to understand that only people who really know about music can really see through that. It’s the same with Gilmour’s solo albums. They are overrated. Firstly, they don’t sound at all like Pink Floyd, reinforcing the fact that he wasn’t the one writing the songs in the band. On an island for instance, it’s made up for the majority of the same boring, repetitive instrumentals that go to highlight once again Gilmour’s poor attempt to try to write decent songs and the fact that he is only a great guitar player, period. He is not able to write a complete album of songs that are not instrumental. He is a great guitar player and arranger but in the songwriting department his songs are below standard. No wonder good critics have slashed A momentary Lapse and The Division Bell. Even Comfortably Numb that many people largely associate to him, wouldn’t have become the popular hit that it is today hadn’t been for Roger’s verse and last line contribution. It would have probably ended up on one Gilmour’s solo albums as an i strumental or third-rate song. Lastly, if anybody dare to compare Gilmour’s to Water’s solo albums, i cannot but develop a feeling of animosity towards them. There is no comparison to be made. Roger is on a league of its own. He has wandered and experimented with different genres spicing up his career. Radio Kaos is a great concept album regardless of what people say. Even critics are starting to appreciate it lately. On the other hand, Gilmour’s has stuck to the same monotonous, meandering and uninteresting tunes. His style has become flat. The Endless river is another example of this. Unfortunately, by using the brand name Pink Floyd in the eighties he has managed to lie and convince people that he did more than he s credited for which is bullshit. His solo albums are a reflection of that. As far as the live concerts are concerned, i can say that Gilmour’s are more precise because he has a better voice and he is a better musician but they are not better. Roger Waters In the Flesh is far more encompassing, deep and moving than Pulse. Pulse is emotionless. Plus, there are some songs like Money that are slightly different in rythm from the original. Badly played. Roger was right in an interview: as long people recognize the tunes and see a lot of lights, they are ok. The magic was missing. Why the magic was missing? because the men who wrote most of the songs wasn’t there!!!
[Well, who’s to credit on a song is as much politics as anything else. Especially when you sell 30mill+++ albums. These are the facts: Syd wrote most of Piper, with both Roger and Rick contributing. Pink Floyd, all four members, should be credited more or less equally for the period between 1968-71. Then, in early 1972 Roger wrote Eclipse, which would later evolve into Dark Side of the Moon. From there on, up to Final Cut, he contributed with the concepts, main song structures and lyrics (with a very few exceptions). Rick and David was very much involved musically with Dark Side and WYWH, partially with Animals and very little with Wall and Aninmals. As I see it, Animals is the last true Floyd album. Wall is mostly Waters and Ezrin, while Final Cut is purely a Waters/Kamen project.
Different bands have different ways of crediting the songs. Who writes the lyrics is often pretty obvious, while the music is in most cases a collaboration. Although one might have provided the main chords and perhaps a structure, it’s often the case of several of the band members contributing to actually arranging the song and adding their sound and playing to the final piece. When money is involved, credits are also subjected to who benefits the most. No doubt that many bands have fought over who’s gonna get credit for what. There are no clear lines or rules and it’s often hard to point out who did what. What is writing and arranging and what is just contributing with your own playing?
In the case of Floyd, there’s no doubt that both Rick and David had an important role in shaping and arranging Roger’s ideas into what ended up on the albums. They were the soul of the band, musically, while he had the ideas and lyrics. Again, Dark Side, WYWH and Animals are as much David and Rick as they are Roger. Wall and Final Cut is something else. I think you’re wrong in comparing these albums to Floyd’s latter work and David’s solo albums. David is nor Roger. Nor is he Floyd. He’s first solo album and Island is deliberately something different because he wanted to do something different. About Face is more of a record company thing… different story. Momentary and Division Bell can’t be compared to the 70s Floyd because, yes Roger wasn’t involved, but don’t be fooled into thinking that they would have made something as brilliant as Dark Side and WYWH with him. Roger is a different person now and besides, you can hardly call Pros and Cons, Radio Kaos or any of the newer songs he’s come up with, brilliant. Pink Floyd had their heydays in the 70s. That’s gone and will never happen again. It was the joint collaboration of Roger, David, Rick and Nick and not just one person alone. – Bjorn]
John Allen says:
I would say David has pretty much caught up with Roger on writing songs for Pink Floyd. He has 3 albums under the Pink Floyd banner that Roger has no credits because he quit. Plus they each have 4 solo albums of which Dave has the better albums by far. He outsells Rogers solo stuff. Now if Roger is so much more well known than Dave then that speaks volumes. The Pink Floyd fans have spoken.
Wow! So many years and still taking comments. Nice one.
Didn’t read it all but a lot of it. Amazing the reaction you can get from people. As for me, It was their solid working together that really amazed me and what I believe helped draw out their almost musical perfection. The some of the parts can never equal the sum of the whole. Honestly, I think I side just a bit towards the Roger side of the camp, but most likely because I feel he really got the screws put too him. He had a desire to work after, DSOTM, and the other lads simply didn’t. Gilmour admitting in an interview that they just “lazily gave up control.” Also, knowing that Gilmour just wanted to put the two Animals songs they had with WYWH and call it good cuts into me a bit deep. I’m glad roger stood his ground because it gave us two great albums. Animals being my favorite.
So right. I look at the Pompeii video as their pinnacle time. Solid teamwork. All four of them. Just doesn’t get any better than that era. Echoes Part 1 is effing rock n roll. I have blown many people away just playing that ten minutes. Always quiets the room. Somehow makes it smell funny too.
Peace Jason, Bjork
Wow. I read pretty much that whole thing. Might put that on my resume/CV. Ha!
I’m not gonna start the discussion again, but I will say that it took ALL of them together to truly be Floyd. I’ve enjoyed pretty much everything ever put out under the Pink Floyd name, but as much as I enjoy Animals and The Wall, I really agree with someone earlier (farther up I should say) who said that The Wall is WAY overplayed on the radio. I listen to it all the way through MAYBE once a year and am tired of it after that.
For my money, when I CRAVE Floyd, it’s Pompeii through Wish You Were Here. Wish You Were Here is amazing and Dark Side will always have THAT sound, but honestly, I’ve gotten to the point in recent months where Pompeii is my go-to Floyd. It’s just got SUCH a cool sound and location (where you can just HEAR the sounds decaying into the wind instead reverbing around a studio) and they were all young and just IN it, you know? Pompeii is musical perfection as far as I’m concerned.
Also, I had a thought… Everytime someone named David chimed in on this thread and “sided with Gilmour” on the debate, I almost wonder if it was Mr. Gilmour himself venting after 30+ years anonymously since he can’t really talk to Waters anymore. Hahaha.
Oh, and on a side note, have you ever demoed the Wampler Velvet Fuzz? I kinda like it, but something about it sounds too “produced” (like comparing a Boss pedal to something boutique and hand-made).
Awesome site as always Bjorn!
[Thanks for reviving the discussion. To be honest, the Velvet Fuzz was a disappointment… to me at least. It falls a bit between a fuzz and distortion. Too dark and hard to figure out. – Bjorn]
Operario says:
@Mick G I know what you mean. But mind you, the guitar solos were NOT what made “Money” successful on the mainstream. In fact, solos hardly ever do. Well, who wrote the solo for Brick II? Still, that’s not the reason why it was such a successful song. Guitar solos are hardly enough to make a song’s popularity (Comfortably Numb and Sweet Child O’Mine notwithstading)
Regarding the discussion, specially what Bjorn and Leftwhinge have brought up: I think in order to determine what something is and what it is not, we have to analyze what elements are involved (I think someone already mentioned this above, not sure).
I imagine it as sort of a household: a father, a mother and two kids. If the mother dies, the family does not stop being a family. But it changes. And even if the father remarries, things won’t be the same again. It might be better, it might be worse (or rather, it might be better for some, worse for others)… the only thing one can be sure of is that it won’t be the same. One of the fundamental elements is not there anymore, it can’t possibly remain the same entity. That’s sort of what happens to bands.
My gripe with Waters-less Floyd is how much it “feels” different. You know, all Floyd albums do sound different, but Saucerful-Animals have something about them, a certain familiar feel that neither subsequent albums have. Things changed, of course. And like the family who lost the mother, that’s not objectively better or worse, but it’s certainly different. And this is where I have to agree with Bjorn: the fact that I prefer 1969-1977 Floyd says more about me than about he band. They were better during that time – for me. Someone else might have an entirely different opinion. One of my best friends, for example, says Division Bell it his favourite album of all time(!). Of course I mock him for that and find it to be completely absurd in my mind. But perhaps I shouldn’t. After all, I don’t know which kinds of experiences he had with the Floyd and what Division bell means to him; I only know the ones I did, and what it means to me. It’s quite interesting to notice how that applies not only to music, but life in general: we despise and mock people for a number of reasons, yet they all have their own reasons for it – reasons as valid as the ones we have for mocking them. Perhaps understanding that is the real meaning of “tolerance”.
Regarding Richard… it’s a sad thing, but I agree with Bjorn’s reply to Pete above: his lack of input was startling from Animals on, and I don’t think that’s a consequence of Roger’s takeover, quite the opposite: I think it was one of the causes of it. It seems to me Richard was the first of the four to lose interest in making music, which is a shame considering the guy’s potential. So, when I say Pink Floyd was only TRULY Floyd from Saucerful to Animals, in reality what I should be saying is that that is “My” Pink Floyd, and I’m not so fond of the “other” Floyds.
So, what’s your Floyd?
leftwhinge says:
Yes I agree that bands evolve and that was the point I was making in response to an earlier comment. But while bands evolve, the evolution is very organic and I guess that is what some people have a problem with.
As opposed to it sounding “less floyd”, a lot of fans at that time felt that the sound and lyrics of were manufactured to sound like the Floyd of the 70’s by an entire machinery. I think Roger himself famously called it a clever “Forgery”. But that aside, I think as band members for over a decade and a half, Gilmour and Mason had every right to decide the direction of the band.
So far as music being a commodity is concerned, I don’t think paying for something in itself makes it a commodity. Every artistic creation, object, product or material has an intrinsic value. But the price you pay for it depends on external factors. According to me, these extraneous variables vis a vis, its intrinsic value is what makes something a commodity.
And the point I was trying to make in this context is that as fans we stop evaluating something for its intrinsic value and are blinded by extraneous variables – namely legacy, brand, loyalty and so on.
As an afterthought…I think that once bands / artists or entities become massive like Pink Floyd, they take on a very corporate nature. There are a lot of people whose well being depends on the survival of the entity. And sometimes the rightful owners of entities like this are not the people who sit at the top but people who are responsible for the day to day functioning of the entity.
In Pink Floyd’s case, it was perhaps the fans because as debatable an album as A Momentary Lapse of Reason was, it was commercially successful when compared to Radio K.A.O.S. So one can argue that although Waters thought that the band was finished, the brand still had plenty of life in it.
At what point we stop becoming fans and become consumers of a brand is the big question.
[Well, as long as bands aren’t making music for free, then we are consumers but I get your point. Final Cut was released with the Pink Floyd name because of financial issues. Momentary Lapse of Reason was a perhaps more of a band album but they took a huge risk and brought on a team that made the album sound less Floyd but perhaps made it more agreable with the fans and criticts. It’s also a fact that the attempt at making Gilmour into a guitar hero and star with About Face bombed so bad that neither he nor the record company dared to issue a new solo album. – Bjorn]
@Operario & Keith
A lot of sense in what each of you said…Also it is heartening to note that Floyd have transcended generations and genres and all such. The younger fans have are just as much important if not more to the legacy of Floyd. And that is why it is probably necessary to not categorise Pink Floyd into Gilmour and Waters’ camps. Although, the members themselves have tried to do the same.
But the one idea which I have trouble comprehending is who or what a band is. While there are merits in arguments about Floyd not being Floyd after Animals, a point of view which I held at one time, I am less sure now. Particularly, because Pink Floyd had their big successes after Syd left. To many Syd was Pink Floyd and there was a marked change in the band’s musical direction after his departure.
So if Gilmour replaced Syd, why can’t an array of musicians come together as was the case when Waters left and be true to the legacy, philosophy and music of the band. I say this because despite releasing two studio albums, much of the Gilmour led floyd’s live material was made up of racks from the Waters era. And the arrangement was more or less the same although an entire entourage was involved.
[You raise a good point here – “what is a band”. A band is obviously a given number of musicians that have formed a unity making music together. Pink Floyd is no longer a band. They were. David Gilmour and Roger Waters are both solo artists but they have a live band which helps them to realize their music. A band can also be together for other more political reasons. Pink Floyd was a band in the traditional sense during The Wall because in spite of all the turmoil, everyone was writing and arranging together and not just Roger. Pink Floyd was not a band in the traditional sense during Final Cut. It was and have always been a Roger Waters solo album but due to financial issues and a pushing record company, the album was relased with the Pink Floyd banner, with David and Nick pitching in. Pink Floyd was technically a duo during Momentary, although Rick contributed with the writing (and later became a full time member). Pink Floyd during Division Bell was a band consisting of David, Nick and Rick.
My point is, a band won’t be the same band forever. Members will quit and new will join. Founding members might change and want to persuit other ways of writing music. We all change and although some would have wanted Pink Floyd to still be making Saucerful or Animals, it would be very limiting for an artist and certainly not an artist that evolves, learn and challenges him self. It’s natural for a band that has lasted over several years to change and fans will come and go. I think it says more about the fans than the band, when one claim that “they were better 20 years ago”. Of course they were, becuase that’s when you discovered them (or perhaps that was the first album you heard years later) and you have all sorts of memories and affections linked to that time and music. That’s what music does but the band continues to change because the members aren’t static figures in a painting or an illusion you created.
Pink Floyd is just a name and although some of the members were in the band from the start, Pink Floyd during Division Bell is not the same band as it was during Piper… and not just because Syd wasn’t there but for the reasons mentioned above. – Bjorn]
Mick G says:
Operario – who do think wrote the soloes
for Money, David or Roger?
As I have been reading the comments, I notice that many people feel that Animals was a cut off point for classic Pink Floyd.
Many of those songs were written before WYWH and almost made it on that album. (Another classic argument between Waters and Gilmour.) It should be noted that after WYWH, that Richards
musical input into the band dropped to nil. Not because of other members of the band, but because of documented personal problems.
This caused a lot of problems in the band. Roger wanted to get rid of Richard before The Wall and David fought for him. He eventually lost the fight for Final Cut.
So if those albums seem different, note that Richard was not contributing as he had in the past. Roger, being Roger, stepped in to fill the void, and just took over. That’s why those albums are so focused on his songs.
Roger actually presented tapes to the band for a new album back in 1978, and the band voted on which one they were going to record. One of those tapes would become The Wall. The other would eventually become The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.
So, to summarize, if Richard had kept his demons at bay and kept contributing, then who knows what would have been.
[Good point Pete. Wright’s contribution has always been overlooked in my opinion. Part of the reason is politics. Dividing credits for a song and album is a tricky part because it’s often down to money and contracts. It’s also very difficult to exactly tell who did what and what it was that made a certain song special. Roger might have brought the initial demo and the lyrics. David arranged the music, sang the song and put his signature guitar on it but without Rick’s keyboards, the song would have turned out quite differently. Did he contribute in the writing? Did he arrange? Hard to tell but his playing is crucial for many of the songs he didn’t actually get credit for – whether he deserved it or not. I see Rick as the glue. Between Roger and Gilmour’s writing and blues references, Rick had a more subtle approach perhaps but with a sense of melody and texture and he brought with him his jazz influences, which is evident on Obscured, Dark Side and WYWH in particular.
I do think Rick’s contribution on Animals is substansial but you’re right, at that point he wasn’t contributing much with the writing and although there are some very nice keyboard parts on the album it’s really not more than nice sounds. Wall and Final Cut are obviously different album because by that time, Roger had decided that he wanted to do other things that just write a new rock album. He brought on board producers and musicians that would help him take the music in a different direction and to realize his vision. While Pink Floyd was rooted in blues and jazz, guys like Bob Ezrin and Michael Kamen, who both did a huge job on those two albums, had a very different background and approach. It’s not just about Rick not being there but the intent of making somethig different. – Bjorn]
Aristotle said it best: “The whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts”. Musically, Pink Floyd was at it’s zenith between DSotM and Animals, when the band was the band. During that period, each of the band members performed astoundingly, and with a creativity that has rarely been seen, either before or since. Individually, none of the band members comprise the complete picture of what made PF great: Roger is the lyricist, and the music is not THE music without his bass lines. Gilmour is obviously the guitar, and the primary voice (although, he and Wright were both very good and sometimes hard to tell apart back in the day). Wright’s haunting keyboard work is definitely one of the cornerstones of the PF sound, and Mason’s drums are without equal during the heyday.
I must say that I enjoy Gilmour’s later individual work more than Waters’ (including the Water-less PF work); his subjects are not so angry and political, and his guitar work was and is a great influence to me personally. If he releases a new album, I’ll buy it. If I had answered the same question 25 years ago, I think Roger’s lyrics may have resonated more with me at that point in my life–but I can’t really say I’ve bought anything since Radio KAOS. That being said, neither Waters nor Gilmour, individually, are anywhere near the artists that they were when the four of them actually collaborated on the music.
Being almost 52, and a lifeling Floyd fan, I was lucky enough to see them three times, Tampa Florida, 1977, with Waters, on the Animals tour, and twice without Waters at the Washington DC shows at RFK, 80 something, and ’94 I think. There is no comparison between the experience of seeing the pre, and post Waters era Floyd, and while both RFK shows were a great spectacle of sight, and sound, both of the posters above, hit the nail squarely on the head. To younger fans, you may not think this way, and I can empathize, but to most people who are older, and grew up listening to the band, it is my opinion that they ceased to be Pink Floyd somewhere during that 1977 Animals tour, and became first, the Roger Waters band, and after the final cut, the David Gilmour band. Neither of which had the flavor of Floyd as a unit of Four men working toward a common goal. That is why I never listen to anything post Animals anymore, and never really listened to any of either bands offerings after the Wall got played into pop culutre hell. Suffice it to say, Roger was the writer, Gilmour the consumate melody maker, Mason the heartbeat, and Richard Wright the SOUL of what was Pink Floyd.
Just as an addendum, to me the question of “which one is Pink” has a very definitive answer: it was Richard Wright. He was the “musical genius” of the band, even outweighing Gilmour. It comes as no surprise to me that Floyd albums get progressively (hah!) less interesting the less involved Richard Wright is with the making of the music.
I recently listened to the entire The Wall album. I love it. I think it is a great progressive rock album, although not a good “Pink Floyd” album. But while I listened to it … the mesmerizing guitar in Brick I, the painful lyrics in Mother, One of My Turns and Nobody Home, the heavy yet soulful guitar playing in Hey You and Comfortably Numb… and while I thought it was all very good, I couldn’t help but find my mind drifting away and reminiscing about the “Ascension” part of Echoes, the “Celestial Voices” section of Saucerful of Secrets, his “Turkish Delight” solos in Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, the beautiful and peaceful Rhodes from Mudmen, the eerie Farfisa Organ in the intro of Time, the zenith of DSoTM with his playing on Eclipse, the beautiful texture of Hammond organ in Atom Heart Mother, upon which David Gilmour gently plays a lap steel solo… these things are almost entirely absent from The Wall on (slightly returning in Division Bell… but by then it was too little, too late)
These are the things that matter to me, and what music is: in the end, it is about how it makes you feel. And this might just be my personal opinion, but any of these momen speak more to me than any of Roger’s lyrics or Gilmour’s solos
@Leftwhinge
I’m 25. My first contact with the Floyd was via my father, who was a fan in the 70s and had some of the vinyls. By the time I got interested in music (around the age of 11 or 12), he only had the Pulse album though, which I thought was great. For a long time, that was all the Pink Floyd I knew. With the internet era (especially after 2004) I got to listen to the studio albums and am, right now, in a bootleg frenzy.
It almost pains me to say that, despite being a fan of David Gilmour’s musical contributions to the Floyd, I think Waters’ contribution was more… how can I say… “important”? It is no secret that Waters was the driving force in the band EVEN when they were actually functioning as, you know… a band. Roger wrote the overwhelming majority of the lyrics, Roger actually wrote the music to some of their most popular songs (including Money, which Mr. Gilmour himself acknowledged was what changed everything… “it was not DSoTM that changed things… it was ‘Money'”). To me it seems that out of the 4, Waters was the one who was most interested in actually making music… which seems even more evident after DSoTM…
After DSoTM, I believe the band members started drifting apart (even musically) and were more interested in enjoying their fortune and success (can’t blame them) than in making music. And I believe without Roger’s firm grip (which eventually evolved into and iron fist that would ultimately destroy the band), Pink Floyd might have ceased to exist right after DSoTM (maybe releasing one more album, but still…). To me, Waters’ talent was his ability to give the band a focus, to set a direction that I honestly doubt either of the other members would be able to set.
Of course, like I said earlier, Waters’ firm grip turned into a sort of “despotic rule” in the band, and he failed to realize that he did not have that much talent himself… thus the weakness of The Final Cut and his two first solo albums (Amused to Death is pretty good though).
On a side note, I absolutely despise dehydrated (Waters-less) Floyd. I’m going to quote Waters on this, because it sums up perfectly how I feel about it:
“I have nothing against Dave Gilmour furthering his own goals. It’s just the idea of Dave’s solo career masquerading as Pink Floyd that offends me!”
Penthouse Magazine, September, 1988
Boy, he couldn’t be more right. But he’s unable to see that Wall and Final Cut are also, essentially, “Waters’ solo career masquerading as Pink Floyd” Both Waters releasing said albums as Pink Floyd and Gilmour releasing MLOR and Division Bell as Pink Floyd are, to me, laughable travesties
So yes… to me, Pink Floyd only “truly” is “Pink Floyd” when it’s an album made by the four of them, or rather “mostly” made by the four of them. So, everything from Saucerful of Secrets to Animals = Floyd; Wall and Final Cut= Waters solo albums; MLOR and Divison Bell = Gilmour solo albums. Your mileave may vary, though.
Hope what I wrote made some sense =]
I would be interested in knowing the ages of most of the commentators here…I wonder if a lot of people here were first exposed to latter day Floyd i.e. A Momentary Lapse of Reason, The Division Bell and Pulse.
The reason I point this out is that David Gilmour had the full weight of Pink Floyd the brand behind him, while Waters went out day in, day out as Roger Waters the solo artist. In fact, Waters says that people hardly knew who he was without the Pink Floyd umbrella.
Gilmour will naturally sound more like Floyd than a Waters ensemble because he was the voice and guitar of the band. We also need to take into count that the Gilmour led Floyd was more an ensemble than a 4 piece band that Pink Floyd was. And a look at the musicians, lyricists and songwriting involved offers a major clue on who or what Pink Floyd was during that era. Still Pink Floyd though…
I have to say that I have been following this dispute for a long time and to me there’s been a lot of propaganda from either side but. But Waters has been isolated systematically and has had to constantly remind people of what his contributions have been and most importantly has had to do it without the safety net of the brand…
As a bottom line if you were to simply measure contributions of each Floyd member, Waters’ contribution musically, lyrically and thematically outweighs everyone else’s. However, I completely understand and acknowledge that Gilmour’s guitar hero status is pre-eminent amongst younger Pink Floyd fans. And mind you is fully deserved…
I wasn’t attempting to bringing theology into it Bjorn, I Iust get tired of,( insert artists name here) is God. Sorry.
[No worries at all Keith. I agree and being an atheist I don’t think neither God nor religion needs to be a part of this site. Music, in all its forms, and the friendship we have here is enough for us to share common ground… in my opinion :) – Bjorn]
Gilmour is a guitarist, God is God.
[I guess David can be a god to someone on the same level as any so-called divine force. But before we start, let the theology rest on this site guys :) Thanks! – Bjorn]
Gilmour is God
AGREED! Especially how the younger audience, and the proliferation of airplay that they enjoyed in the later period, would necessarily endear those records to that audience, and likewise, the days of the concept album had run their course. So change too was I suppose, a necessity.
I’ve never heard a Pink Floyd song that made me change the station, and that is unique in itself.
Peace, Love, And Gilmourish, THE POSTECUTIONER
[Yeah, no matter how many times you’ve heard those songs you always stop and listen when they’re on the radio :) – Bjorn]
You are spot on, and I was speaking rhetorically, and greatly enjoyed seeing them twice after Roger left, but in all reality,neither show was close to Tampa in ’77, the one time I got to see them with Roger. And not being a fan of the post Animals material, albeit with several exceptions on the Wall, and at least one or two songs on the following discs, I always felt that they were the same Pink Floyd on everything post Pipers, through Animals, but just changed their style almost every album. The Who was very similar in that respect, and I personally feel it’s because both bands had a tendency to write albums as a composer writes a symphony, with each song being just another movement in the whole, and that continued through the Wall, but after that, at least to me, they seemed to be just going through the motions, and the feeling was somehow lost. The last few albums certainly had a few of those moments of magic, that was almost all Pink Floyd, but it was no longer every song, seamlessly tying into the next to create a socio-political commentary, or in the case of the earlier material a land of fantasy, full of color, and strange themes, and creatures. To me, it began to seem more about the money, and fulfilling contracts, than making art like Animals, Echoes, and the record setting DSOTM. As always, this is merely my opinion, based on forty years of listening to one of musics most relevant, and lasting bands, who took music to the apex of music as an artform!
Peace, The Postecutioner
[Well, I agree and understand your point. In terms in how they wrote music, neither Momentary nor Bell followed the classic tradition but then again, both were made in a time when radio played a bigger role and concept albums weren’t that cool. I like both albums but they’re not like the old ones. Having said that, people who discovered Floyd during the 80s and 90s see those albums in a different light and appreciate them based on memories, association etc… which is what music and art often is all about. – Bjorn]
How has it been proven. While some may disagree, especially younger fans who weren’t born when the split started in ’76, the fact is, the last Oink Floyd album was ANIMALS, and nothing after it is a real Pink Floyd album. Without Roger, (and I saw the band before, and after Riger left.), there was definitely something missing, his creative vision, his voice, and his unique style of bass. After Roger left, there were two bands, the Roger Waters band, and the Gilmour/ Wright band. I think the truth is, neither should have been called PF, and many would say the band’s name should have changed when it’s founder, and the true genius Syd Barrett lost it. But to say there was a band Pink Floyd in anything other than name after Animals, is purely semantics, and and isn’t based in reality. IN MY OLD ASS OPINION!!!
THE POSTECUTIONER
[Well, yes… Pink Floyd after Animals changed. So it did after Syd, after Atom Heart, after Dark Side, after Momentary… Regardless of who’s in the band, the band is still Pink Floyd and a band that’s been in the game for 40 years will always change. We, the fans, have an affection for a certain period, album, member or sound but the band, it’s still Pink Floyd and it’s carrying the tradition, history and present status. If you ask me, I think that anyone saying that Floyd stopped being Floyd after Syd left, are fools. Of course it changed, but then again, you’d have an obscure band that released one album and that’s that. Floyd themselves wanted to call the quits after Dark Side, but then we wouldn’t have gotten WYWH and Animals. Roger wanted to do Wall alone but he understood that Pink Floyd was more than him – at least at that point. If he’d done it alone, we’d have a very tedious double album… Then Roger quit and David, Rick and Nick carried the torch. It wasn’t the same but then again, Roger’s 80s solo albums didn’t sound anything near Animals, Wall or Final Cut either. Why? Time, place and situation… One can’t expect one band to do the same thing over and over for 40 years… not counting Stones and AC/DC… :) – Bjorn]
You are right. The last OINK Floyd album was Animals!;-) Seriously, I like Meddle through the Wall the best. For me, the band literally lost it’s edge when Waters left. While the Wall was Waters baby, I still consider it Floyd myself. Gilmour’s contributions and the overall music was still magic. Not too much a fan of post Waters “Floyd” but there are a few good songs.. Like most of Waters post Floyd too, but not as much as Floyd….until his latest release in 2017. ITTLWRW is GOLD and delivers imho most of what I loved about Pink Floyd. No band stays in their Zenith forever. I am actually happy they put out as much as they did and hung in as long as they did. The good news is that they never sold out and never grew old and boring and Waters last album has as much wit and melody as I could want. I think Roger had more to do with what I loved about Floyd, but that in no way diminishes my appreciation for the epic singing and guitar work of David Gilmour. And Wright and Mason are awesome too. Like Led Zeppelin they were four epic talents in one band. Still sounding as good today as it ever did!
Hi Delsolomon,
music journalism IS about opinions. If even just two people could experience a concert or a CD in exactly the same way, there would be no reason to ask others how they liked it and why. Music journalism is part of this conversation. Why are there so many people who don’t understand that? And by the way: Not every opinion you don’t share is based on bad research.
Delsolomon says:
This article was mostly opinion. You say there counldn’t have been a Pink Floyd without Waters or Gilmour but that is untrue and it has been proven. Pink Floyd started without Gilmour and finished without Waters. I’m not going express my opinion on who’s better, but it would do all of us justice if you did some research before you post like this again.
[Of course it’s my opinion! Why else should I be writing this? Besides, I can write what I want. Please read the article again. – Bjorn]
gh gh gh I’d like to know your thoughts about this video :DD
Good post. For me that said a lot about the band and where they came from. Groundbreaking.
Spaceman Spiff says:
I have been, and always will be, more of a David fan than a Roger fan. (Even though my favorite album is Animals) I do love the lyrics that Roger has written, to include his solo works; however, I really try not to get too deep into the meaning of what someone is trying to say. I find lyrics to be propaganda that musicians are trying to sell their ideologies to the sheep. Words bind a song in a unique way by giving it purpose through tone, feeling, and meaning. It has always bothered me that most of the writing credits go to the people in the band that write them. To me, Floyd’s strongest song(s) are the ones that do not necessarily rely on words alone, but are made better with or without them. (Great gig, One of These Days, Echoes, Shine On, Any Colour You Like,……) Even though some of the songs that I have just mentioned have lyrics to them, I strongly feel that they could stand alone without them. I would also have to fully agree with Costello’s comment about Rick Wright and his influence on Floyd. Nick is the only member that I think could have been replaceable. (Not trying to offend anyone, simply an opinion) I think that Nick’s greatest input to the band is what you are not seeing on the records. He always seemed to be the arbitrator between the two head ego’s. Anyway, thank you for putting up a wonder site like this. Much appreciated and cheers!!!!
Ted Oliver says:
I’m a newbie to the site, and I particularly enjoyed your comments very much, especially those about the politics of writing credits (especially in Pink Floyd’s case) and your short-list of your favourite Floyd tunes–I agree, Floyd is a SOUND (regardless of lyrical quality) that has rarely been equaled–and the nice sentiments about Rick’s irreplaceable talent and contributions to the band’s body of work.
Anyway, having listened to “Wish You Were Here” and “Animals” a lot recently, I have a few questions about a few songs. For instance, although Waters put his name solely beside “Sheep”, both predecessor “Raving and Drooling” and the eventual “Sheep” track featured on the album, the song comes across as one of those songs were all three (Gilmour-Wright-Waters) contributed to the musical composition. Does anyone feel that Gilmour (or even Wright–I love his intro to the song) deserve a writing credit for this one? And, how about “Pigs”–from the middle section wherein Gilmour talks through the guitar down to the excellent climatic solo–just doesn’t seem like something Waters would have composed himself. I always feel the longer the Floyd tracks go length-wise, the more Gilmour and Wright are behind it. Any thoughts?
As for “Wish You Were Here”, what I’m really curious about is “Welcome to the Machine” in terms of writing credits. Before the 1987-90 Lapse tours, I watched an interview with Gilmour in which he talked about the songs from the past chosen for the set-list. I’m sure he said something along the lines of choosing the songs very carefully, and was wondering if it was a veiled reference to his lack of proper credits for songs credited solely to Waters. “Money” was played, but we all know this one should read Gilmour-Waters-Wright-Mason-Parry, and we know Gilmour should have had credit for “ABITW part 2” (but wasn’t) and it was played, too. “Sheep” was considered, but I believe he felt his vocals weren’t up to task for that tune. That leaves “Welcome to the Machine” as the only track performed live for which Waters was given sole credit. It seems that the effort was made to showcase the songs that Gilmour and Wright had major contributions toward. The WYWH documentaries don’t really shed too much liight on the song’s evolution. There are hints of the guitar parts in track 2 on “The Endless River”, and it made me think–after a listen on the headphones it would appear that this was another case of Gilmour and Wright’s musical magic coming to fore again (but not in the credit dept). Does anyone have any info on the development of this song? It’s one of my favourites, and it would be really strange that a Waters-only credited song would have been featured all through the first post-Waters tours. Should it read Waters-Gilmour-Wright????
Sorry for the long-winded post, but given the wealth of knowledge, opinions, and genuine love for the best band of them all evident on this site, I’m hoping some fans out there can shed some new light on my questions.
Cheers, and shine on everybody!
Ted from Ottawa
Costello says:
When you speak about who was the better artist, you’re never going to get a clear answer from everybody. Whether the better artist was RW, DG, or SB is not a solvable question. It just depends on what style you prefer. HOWEVER, you can argue which artist was the most innovative and influential. The most innovative and influential artist in Pink Floyd is Syd Barrett. The RW directed Floyd and the DG Floyd are simply the respective interpretation of a sound and mood created by Syd Barrett. In fact, if you want to argue who was responsible for the Pink Floyd sound, Richard Wright deserves even more credit than RW or DG. No instrument in the Floyd gave the lyrics and baseline that trademark “spookiness” more than Richard Wright’s keyboard. Syds unique word painting and squeaking guitar inspired Wright’s mood establishing space cadet keyboard. Mason’s hypnotic drum beats coupled with Waters’ well placed melancholic base lines followed rounded out the original Floyd sound. Waters became a great lyricist because he at least began by imitating Syd’s style. Gilmour’s began by imitating Syd’s guitar parts and evolved a “sensitivity with balls” sound of his own. But it’s all derivative of Barrett and even Wright, developed by Waters and Gilmour.
Overhead the Albatross says:
Forgive me for failing to resist the urge to add my opinion to this old argument.
The standard premise is that RW was the leader whose ideas pulled everything together, while DG has some soulful guitar phrases that were better recognized because of their tying-down to the concept.
Be that as it may, we must remember that RW was a mediocre lyricist at first (evidence: ‘More Light’, ‘Thy Stethoscope’, ‘If’ arguably), while DG was finding his sound having been imitating the likes of Hendrix and Clapton.
RW’s songs are often a bit folk-ish, but lyric-wise simple yet somewhat intellectual; intellectual pop if you will. Direct and never too abstract (even on WYWH, he borrowed Syd’s imagery). But it must be pointed out that it is the music created when RW does not over-dictate that stands out. In fact, I daresay if TFC was made in 1975, before RW dictated everything, it would have been a classic in a way different from it is now.
For example, Bricks II was apparently similar to Bricks I before DG’s solo, the disco-ish drumbeats and the children choir. If RW had been the way he was in TFC, Bricks II would have indeed been just another track (or even filler) in The Wall. Pretty sure if TFC-era Waters had worked on Bricks II, we would have a gloomy funereal track with some sound effects.
Another example is Money, where DG does the solo and sings RW’s lyrics in his bluesy style that propelled the band to stardom. If we had RW from the 80s working with PF instead, he probably would have limited DG’s input and maybe even try to sing the lead.
Back to the post-Piper years. Both RW and DG seemed to be very uninspired. And both manifested their trademarks at the same time (everyone would say at Echoes). Everything from thereon is just creative synergy between them.
When RW became too involved in everything, the music just didn’t sound that good. Ample evidence can be heard in TFC, which was by and large RW’s heartfelt but painful vocals coupled with Michael Kamen’s piano/orchestral input and the rare DG guitar solos. RW did have PF’s Midas Touch, but when he grabs hold of everything, as he did in TFC, it just became a miserable listen (TFC has its merits, but Wright’s absence and DG’s lack of input is glaring).
As for DG becoming too involved in everything, there is even more evidence in ‘Lapse’ and ‘Bell’. The spacey sounds were distinct, but hollow and uninspired.
So as to the question, Team DG or Team RW, I think the answer is anything but clear. Both of them peaked at the same time, so we can’t say for sure if it were RW or DG who lifted PF out of the post-Syd slump. A gun to my head though, I must side with DG, since it is his musical synergy with Wright that made me fall in love with the band’s music in the first place. Ultimately, the most special of all was Syd of course, whose lyrics lifted/inspired from random books and artsy guitaring had separated PF from all the other bands of the time, founding both DG and RW’s long careers.
[Thanks for your comment! – Bjorn]
Jeffnichos says:
I wonder if you could poll all who have contributed to this debate over the years, whether through this post or elsewhere, if you’d find that to a large extent, the majority of Gilmour supporters are musicians while those in the Waters camp are not. Might explain the basis of preference toward musicality vs. meaning. For the record, count me on Gilmour’s side.
[I’m sure there are lots of polls out there on this very subject. My intention, when I posted this years ago, was to stir up a fun discussion. I’ll leave it with that :) – Bjorn]
A Pseudonym says:
I have been listening to all the Floyd stuff; from bootlegs to solo material. And I must say, I agree. Obviously, nearly all the PF material contains guitar, so Gilmour would naturally be the better one to replicate the live stuff, having already won the guitar war. Waters has in the past employed some gifted guitarists (including Snowy White) and they all sound incredible, while Jon Carin plays for both Gilmour or Waters. I think it’s a no contest. Gilmour will always sound truer to the original having performed (and/or written) the music. Having said that, Waters has employed the best of the best, and in his recent (2010s) Wall tour, the performance has been quite accurate. But on the other material where Gilmour and Wright did contribute substantially (WYWH, TDSOM etc), Gilmour will always have the upper hand.
Basically, without Waters, Gilmour and Wright and Mason would be just another band; The Division Bell is, IMHO, very impressive sonically and perhaps musically, but is severely lacking in conceptual development (it’s not simply a Concept album just because the theme is ‘communication’, and you have songs such as ‘Poles Apart’ and ‘Keep Talking’). But Waters can’t cover much ground by relying on session musicians as well who are arguably not familiar with him (his solo work has too little music for a lot of words, although Jeff Beck on Amused to Death was brilliant as ever). Gilmour did not choose the ‘guitar virtuoso’ path, and therefore needs someone who can provide the ‘pop’ to make his unique guitar sound stand out. Waters has a lot of ideas, but would not have made it big if he had either employed session musicians or had different bandmates. In short, neither Gilmour nor Waters would be anywhere without each other, and so comparing the two would be pointless.
memento says:
I’ve started to really listen to Pink Floyd recently, and I also have watched a few documentaries about the band.
As others have previously mentioned, Roger Waters is the one with ideas and rest of the band “make them happen”. He’s the visionary and brains behind Pink Floyd’s most successful and creative work.
I think Roger Waters to Pink Floyd is what Steve Jobs was to Apple – the way they managed others, they futuristic ideas and the fact that they needed other incredibly talented peoples help to form their ideas into actual body of work makes their similarities uncanny.
Wow… a 7 year old thread still going strong.
I’ve always been in the Waters camp. Couldn’t really help it. The Wall was my gateway drug to Floyd when I was a lad and watching a VHS of the film in the late 80’s. From there, actually got into Waters solo work first with KAOS (still think Four Minutes is one of his best works) and Amused to Death when it dropped (always in a neck and neck race with WYWH as my number 1 album).
It wasn’t until 1994 when I finally gave Dark Side and Wish You Were Here a real listen and that was because I saw it live at 14 years old. I still regard PULSE as having the definitive live renditions of certain songs (Time, Wish You Were Here, Shine On). Since ’94, been immersed in full Floyd, from Piper on.
Now, here is where I will start to diverge from many posters on here. I saw Floyd in ’94, and then I saw In the Flesh in ’99 and ’00. Where as I prefer three or four songs from PULSE, I prefer ITF as a tour overall but that is because I don’t consider either to be Pink Floyd. The ticket said “Pink Floyd” in 1994, but that, to me, is the same as a Waters ticket saying “Creative Genius Of”. They are both using a famed musical history to sell a product/experience… but none are the genuine article.
No show post 1981 (Live 8 being the obvious exception) has been PINK FLOYD. Nor was it PINK FLOYD in ’11 when Waters, Mason and Gilmour were on stage in London. If somebody claimed “that was the last Pink Floyd show”, fans would be up in arms due to the lack of Rick Wright… yet many of those same people have no qualms saying that ’94 was the year of the last Pink Floyd tour. Nonsense.
Without Waters, Gilmour, Mason or Wright, there is no Pink Floyd… just varying formats of its’ members playing with other musicians.
Much has been put into the strengths and weaknesses of the “big two”. I think I am in the Waters camp as I tend to be more cerebral. I respond to the lyrics and concepts more so than the music exclusively. The best era of Floyd was when they had the “mixture” right. Parts of Meddle, Dark Side, WYWH, parts of Animals and parts of the Wall were prime examples of that mix. Waters was the brain, Gilmour was the heart.
For many of those who complain that Waters’ backing band sounds like a glorified cover band, I wonder how bad you would have flayed the singer/guitar player in London on May 12th 2011 if you didn’t KNOW it was Gilmour. Flubbed lyrics, sloppy playing of a man who maybe practiced the day of the show but not before… I think they would have been crucified and rightfully so. But, it wasn’t some unnamed nobody up there, it was DAVID GILMOUR! It wasn’t atrocious, it was the BEST! He didn’t fuck up, he was awesome! Once again, nonsense.
I have long believed that Waters could have Gilmour playing and singing every night in an Abe Lincoln mask behind stage and if nobody was told or knew, many fans would STILL claim it “doesn’t sound as good as Gilmour”. There is, I think, an “on/off” switch in fans heads. If they don’t see Gilmour, it’s automatically not as good. I never looked at it that way. I go off of what I see and hear and FEEL. Waters shows have moved me, Pink Floyd ’05 moved me, Floyd ’94 didn’t.
Sorry for the length.
[Thanks for commenting! Good points! – Bjorn]
Rafael Sena says:
I agree with you Bjorn. Rogers’s performances were never very good in my opinion. But… I saw him in São Paulo (Brazil) last year performig “The Wall” and it was amazing. A great band and an excellent performance! I heard that he used some voice overdubs (Young lust was a little too accurate if you know what I mean). It was the best show of my life.
ps – I ain’t never seen Gilmour live (lol)
[Agree. The The Wall show was amazing! – Bjorn]
Agreed with Dan ^
Dan Richter says:
I find it alot like peanut butter cups. I like peanut butter(Waters), I like chocolate(Gilmour), but they are the best when together. I am more on Gilmour side of things when it comes to the guitar and polished music, but the song writer/idea side of me really likes Waters vision.
I find David’s music more soulful and transcendent on a grandeous scale, while Roger’s pulls at my heart strings and explores the depths of my psyche. They are both great in different ways and I appreciate them in different ways. For me Gilmour will always edge out Waters, but that is only personal preference. That is the truley great thing about music/art, it can touch us all in different yet personally relevant ways.
I’ll see you all on the dark side of the moon.
Keith Clarke says:
I said I was done, but have to add that like an atom, if you lose or gain an electron, you have a different element, so I was saying just that, when Rick was given the boot, different band, different feel. When Roger took total control, and then left, that was not Pink Floyd, but elements of the band remained. I will say that I saw them before the breakup, and after, and that even without Roger, they still sounded like Pink Floyd, on the older material, but at least in my mind, The Wall was a definite turning point, that signaled the end of the band I knew as Pink Floyd. I don’t think everything they did in the post Animals period was bad, or a sell out, just a different band. As for King Crimson, it never was “a band”, merely a varying group of musicians that changed every album, and more of a Fripp solo project that changed with each album, so yes, they are a definite contrast to Floyd’s attempt to continue on even though they weren’t actually Pink Floyd anymore. I’m quite sure that there are those who would disagree with the 3 opinions expressed here, and think that Pink Floyd ceased to exist when Syd lost it, and left the band. Lastly, I was merely stating a long held opinion, and do not expect everyone to agree. It was just a thought after hearing perhaps the song I find so not PF, “Learning to Fly”. Now, I’m done! LOL! I am not an expert, nor do I intend to insult ANYONES taste, just an observation.
Peace be with you, and all you love, Keith :)
Very correct generalization, Bjorn!
I allow myself to come up with a different position.
When considering the almost fifty-year history of Pink Floyd, I find that even with a certain period, the essence of Floyd was unchanged. Unlike other well-known groups. I fundamentally do not single out the best periods. The unique history of Pin Floyd is that certain periods firmly united into one, as the atoms in the molecules: each atom is unique and makes certain properties in a stable molecule. Contrasts the history of King Crimson, which is devoid of such integrity, it is an unstable molecule in time. So fragmentation stories Pink Floyd is just the best way of seeing this cultural heritage. Man for a better perception of reality tend to make a formal simplification, to divide the whole into parts, etc. That’s the way the brain and the human psyche.
Vadim.
[Well put :) – Bjorn]
Wow Bjorn, you understood exactly what I was trying to say, but stated it much more eloquently than I ever could. In 1979, at 17 I wrung my hands constantly waiting for the follow up to Animals, and as I’ve mentioned before, my friend worked for CBS, so I was able to get the album, and all of the promotional materials several weeks before even the radio stations. I immediately fell in love with The Wall, but at 17, I was less interested in the lyrical content, and was unaware of the inner turmoil within the band, and all I cared about at that young age was how kick ass Run Like Hell, and Dirty Woman were. Admittedly, it wasn’t until I was a year or two older, and had been bombarded non-stop with ABITW, and Comfortably Numb on my local rock station, and had started college where I started to think more about lyrical content, and started to examine the socio-political side of things that I became disenchanted with the obvious fact that the album was NOT a Pink Floyd album. Animals was almost as much a Waters album, but the others still had enough input to, at least in my mind, make it a great Pink Floyd record, one that to this day I feel was one of their greatest. But as you correctly said, the demons that take over when you become a sell out every show, big time radio star, and yet find yourself still economically in the shitter, almost always kill the band. Interesting that you put the Beatles in there, because they were likely the most popular, and powerful band that has ever existed, and they went through the gamut of crisis’ including financial woes, interruptions by girlfriends, and wives, and not least of all that thing that likens being in a band to marriage, feelings of hurt, jealousy, and abandonment. Yet, somehow, they were the exception to the rule as far as their music went during the end days of the band. Everyone knows that the last couple of albums were a collection of solo material of each member, but never did they not sound like the Beatles, while they definitely morphed from the old Jerry and the pace makers, British version of American blues and soul, almost cover band, into a more adult band both lyrically, and musically, being innovative in everything they did, I would say that Abbey Road, The Beatles, (the White album), and Let it Be, are as good as anything they ever recorded, in some ways better, and even though they were a lot like the Pink Floyd of The Wall/Final Cut, they still sounded like The Beatles. I digress. You stated my point as well as could be stated, and yet it still saddens me that at the height of their abilities, and the technical innovations that became available in the ’80s, that they just imploded into a charicature of the Pink Floyd I loved so very much, and my personal feelings are that they should have quit after Animals, and embarked on solo carreers, instead of attempting to be something that they could never be as anything less than a democratic unit. That’s all I will say about this ever again, and will end with they should have listened to their own line from DSOTM, ” No one told you when to run, you missed the starting, (in this case the ending!) Gun……. Young men and women, Listen to some nice old Floyd every chance you get.
Peace, Love, and Gilmourish, Keith
Stephen Ford says:
Cheers to that!
In response to Keith’s latests posts…
First of all, happy 51st birthday, Keith! Hope you had a nice celebration!
This whole thread, as so many has pointed out, is pretty pointless. Perhaps I shouldn’t have started it in the first place but then again, why not. There’s no right or wrong simply because it’s all subjective point of views. It is not possible to discuss this matter without being coloured by one’s own taste, opinion, experience etc… as with most things in life.
The Floyd history is covered in detail, so that’s really no fun to discuss. It’s widely known who did what… even if both David and Roger claims otherwise.
Personally I agree with you. I think Pink Floyd sounded best between 1968-1977 with a peak around 1971-77. I don’t agree that everything after Animals is a sell out. It’s just another era of the band.
Above all, I think you have to take in consideration the state of the band. Up until Dark Side, all they wanted was to sell albums and reach as many people as possible with their music. Once they broke through in the States in 1973, they had reached all their goals. They got rich and everything got bigger. No matter how much you want this, it does something with your head and this had a strong effect on the band, their relationship and their creativity. As it did with Beatles, Zeppelin and pretty much everyone else.
Looking back, Roger has said that the band should have quit after Dark Side. But they didn’t. They wrote WYWH, which was an incredibly introspective album dealing with what they felt at the time. By Animals, they were so big and the rollercoaster was hard to stop. They toured the world and it had a devastating effect on ROger, Rick and the relationship within the band. Again, they should have quit. Not because they couldn’t write more meaningful music but because they were exhaused and this had an effect on their creativity and judgement.
The Wall is perhaps a hard album to grasp for some but I don’t think Roger wrote it to please anyone. He wrote it because he had to deal with his demons. David didn’t get this and saw the whole thing as a failure. I think The Wall has some weak moments but in whole, it’s a master piece. I rank it way down on the Floyd scale but I’m awe over what Roger achieved. Not least after having seen his latest shows, which, for me, put the whole album and it’s story in perspective.
But The Wall isn’t Pink Floyd. It’s a Roger Waters solo album with the rest of the guys contributing. It does not have the same group effort as the previous albums.
Final Cut was intended to be a collection of unused songs from the Wall. Then it ended up as a Roger Waters solo album. It was never intended to be a new Floyd album but due to their catastrophic financial situation at the time, the record company and Roger, didn’t dare to release it without the Floyd logo. Rick was already out of the picture and Nick and David was brought in to do their parts. I love the album but it’s not Pink Floyd.
So, my point is, you can’t just talk about one album, without seeing the whole picture. Why is Sgt Pepper different from Rubber Soul? The Beatles had stopped touring, they were more experienced, they had explored other artistic forms, some of them were more politically active etc… There’s always a reason and some like the old band bettr than the new… or vice versa. It doesn’t make the other better or worse.
It’s interesting that music is always considered more commercial and up for debate than most other art forms. Poetry or painting are considered to be a more serious art form but for me, music has a much bigger meaning and impact on me as a human. Pink Floyd’s music is a great example of how you can paint music. They wrote as a painter would layer his textures and colours. Echoes is one piece consisting of several individual parts. just like the images of the Sistine Chappel. So is The Wall. It’s not one song but a collection of individual pieces that makes up one big image. Music isn’t written out of the blue. It is a result of how the author and performer felt at that particular time. That’s the beauty of music.
I just remembered what got me thinking about this. I heard learning to fly on the radio a couple of days ago. Listen to that song, and then just about any pre The Wall song, and the difference should make my point quite well.
Regardless, David Gilmour is the most soulful, innovative rock guitarist ever, and I don’t think anyone will ever change my thinking in that belief! Peace, Love, and Gilmourish…Everything he’s ever done! Keith
Bjorn, do you at some level see my point? Like I said, I’m in no way trying to pee on anyone’s parade, I’ve just never really seem to enjoy any band as much once they get that taste of mass airplay, and feel that the music suffers when they start writing for their radio audience instead of for their own artistic satisfaction. I feel the same about the Who, post Who are You, Zeppelin’s In through the Out Door, etc. I fully believe bands should evolve, but some get a taste of a few FM hits, and Devolve. I don’t know what got me thinking about this, and really don’t mean to minimalize anyone’s feelings about the post Animals stuff, I guess I see so many posts about songs, and albums I’ve only had a cursory relationship with, that it makes me wonder why there’s not more talk of the earlier Gilmour stuff, other than Echoes, or a few songs from DSOTM, AND WYWH. I love Not now John, I find Sorrow interesting, I’m actually pretty crazy about Ms. Fletchers, but find that
the vast majority of the post Waters Floyd to consist mainly of the same heavily processed drums, rhythmic echo produced guitar line ala Another Brick, and less than emotional talking through the lyrics in a monotone fashion, instead of the wonderfully beautiful harmonies Gilmour, and Wright were so capable of. I cannot help to feel as though I’m listening to two entirely different bands. I’m just going on, but I just hope someone understands what I’m saying, abd that no one takes it wrong
An addendum ! I am sorry for all the typos, these little phone’s keys are difficult to hit right every time, but I assure you I have no idea how ” one of the finest recordings”, ended up, one of the Conestoga? Auto spell is a bitch! The rest, I think you can decipher.
Peace y’all, KC
I’m not about to start this controversy all over again, but thought this was the best place for my thoughts. Maybe it’s got something to do with age, as I turned 51 yesterday, and that being said, I have been a huge Floyd fan since before many of you were born, but I just can’t seem to get impressed by anything called Pink Floyd after, or perhaps during Animals. I must admit that Animals, while it is the album where Roger, and oerhaps Davids egos began the unstoppable spiral tgat killed Floyd, it is still perhaps my favorite Pink Floyd album, although Neddle, and WYWH, are very dear to my soul, and of course DSOTM is without a doubt one of the Conestoga recordings ever made on the earth. Perhaps because I got so sick off hearing one song after another from Roger’s mental masterbation, known as The Wall receive constant airplay that was never afforded the band at the apex of their creativity that put a bad taste in my mouth, and made me think they just sold out. To some degree, I do feel that the post Animals remaining two albums, The Wall, and The Final cut are pretty much Roger waters/ Michael Kamen/ Bob Ezrin albums, thus more targeted to a radio audience, I also have never been able to wrap my love of the band around much of the post Waters material, which again sounds more nainstream pop, and while the lyrical content is definitely not the stuff of average pop, the songs just seem to bleed one into the other, to a point at which to me there is little more than the lyrics to distinguish one song from the next. There are exceptions, and admittedly, th
e Wall may have discouraged me from listening to their post Animals material with the vigor I previously awaited the earlier releases. I say thus, knowing that many here care more for the Division Bell, than Atom Heart, or UmmaGumma, but once again, this may be an age thing. Take for example, Comfortably Numb,the greatest solo ever. I find that statement to be so far from what I think of as Davids best work, that it makes me cringe to think so many are enamored by the relative soullessness of that solo compared to say the Dogs solo before the vocal,” And when you lose control”. The tone may be something
great, and of course tone is a big reason why we’re all here, but while the technique that solo was recorded with, does have a beautiful tone, I don’t see how it can come close to the soul filled solos on DSOTM, WYWH, and not least Animals, where you can hear him pouring the emotions he’s feeling onto the tape! I will never criticize anyone for their tastes, but I think some of you need to go back to the beginning, and listen to the earliest of the Gilmour era a bit closer, and follow through the Wall, and see if you can grasp my opinion, even if you don’t end up agreeing with it. Anyway, not trying to start a controversy, just stating a very strongly held opinion.
Peace, Love, and Gilmourish, Keith Clarke
Chinni says:
Agreed Bjorn,
SYD – The Meaning of Floyd
ROGER – The Voice of Floyd
DAVE – The Sound of Floyd
Despite a Hard-core WATER’s fan I can say just one thing.
ROGER-DAVE combo, the best ever.
WATER’s himself wrote in “HEY YOU”
TOGETHER WE STAND.. DIVIDED WE FALL..
All we can do is to listen and praise the work they did together..
[Indeed! – Bjorn]
Well then you say Cherish ‘GILMOURISH’..
I respect the man who started the The Tea Set, the man who led Pink Floyd for nearly 2 decades, the man whose writings were DIVINE, whose thoughts were extreme, the man who had loyal respect towards his true leader SYD, the man who always initiate raw singles, which inturn shared by the band to furnish it into a masterpiece..
He wrote
TIME – Every man has a day to die, so live your life.
MONEY – Its a gas, so dont give it a shit.
SHINE ON – SYD we love you.
THE FINAL CUT – He missed his Father.
ABITW 1 – Memento to his father.
ABITW 2 – Fuck studies, teachers leave the kids alone.
ABITW 3 – Leave drugs.
Animals – People all arounds, three different kinds.
And tons and tons of masterpieces..
All respect to the Maestro “ROGER WATERS”..
Master, you are UNIQUE..
[He is unique all right… So is and was the rest of the guys. Wonder how these songs would have sounded without Floyd. – Bjorn]
Any such debate is pointless. Who contributed more to the Zepplin sound? Page? Bonham? Would the Beatles have been better if they substituted Chet Atkins for George? Garfunkle with Tom Jones? Ridiculous. We have the music we all love because of the random events that brought them together. Unless you prefer muzak, (which, bless you, is ok if it really moves you), you have to realize that the classic bands all had key contributors. In different ways, different extents, and at different times. It’s the MAGIC people! Random, magical, collaborative beauty. That’s what makes the music we love. Debate less…listen, and enjoy more.
[Well, I think we all can agree to that. Hell, WYWH, Animals and Wall wouldn’t have been written if it wasn’t for the huge success of Dark Side driving Floyd into the endless strains of touring. There are so much more to music and the writing that just the person writing it. Still though, a debate is always fun :) There are worse things you can do. – Bjorn]
I’m looking forward to see what Roger comes up with in his new album http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/upcoming_releases/roger_waters_writing_new_concept_album.html
Hopefully it will be better than his other solo work because he’s a very creative writer and has potential into making something really stand out on his own. Also I can’t wait for the new Wall Concerts DVD to come out, hopefully it’ll on blu-ray too.
Bjorn, have you been to the Roger Waters – The Wall concert yet? I just saw they announced a second leg of the European tour in which two dates includes Norway. It’s really fantastic, I’ve been to the first concert in Toronto where he started and the last concert in Quebec of the second leg tour in North America. He improved many things in the second leg of the tour, including sound – which is top priority.
[Looking forward to hear some new material although I think it will be hard to beat Amused to Death. I did get to see all of the shows in London’s O2 arena in May last year, including David’s performance. I was really blown away by the show and I think Roger’s done an amazing job keeping the concept and music fresh and new. – Bjorn]
Well, I’ve hinted at, but never said it straight up befire. To me, the last, and perhaps one of the finest Pink Floyd albums was Animals. The Wall impressed me when it was released, but the commercialization, and constant airplay made me sick of the LP very quickly. I mentioned in an earlier post that my best friend worked for CBS, distributing advance mayerial to radio stations, and record outlets. At the tine, I was in one of my Floyd periods, and greatly anticipated the release because of my fascination with Animals. About a month before it’s release, I got a bunch of promotional Gerald Scarffe stand ups, with widows in the wall that opened to reveal the various characters, several Theatre sized posters, and the promotional stamped copy of th LP a month before the radio stations. I couldn’t wait for the tour, and got 2 tickets to one of the only 2 east coast dates at Nassau Colosseum in NY, only to miss the show! Now, getting back to the subject, I really don’t think of much of anything after Animals as being a real Pink Floyd effort, and with few exceptions don’t find anything after Animals that doesn’t sound very commercial. Like Stephen, I too think that the Syd era produced some of their finest work, and set the stage for the direction the band took ince David’s prowess on guitar added it’s uniqueness. But I am absolutely fanatical about everything from the point David joined the band, up to Animals, and think the troubles that started with Animals basically ended Pink Floyd as far as albums go. Hiwever, live, David, Rick, and Nick did the bands music justice on tour as Pink Floyd, as did David, and Rick. I don’t see Roger as having dne that, and lastly, the bad investments you spoke of Bjorn, seem mainly to have been a result once again of Roger’s “Vision”, and the crazy amounts of money they lost on The Wall, one time I’m sure Rick was glad to be getting a paycheck, as he was the only member or non member that is, to make a dime on the fiasco of a tour. So it basically doesn’t really matter. They WERE a great band, who made some great albums, and as with most great bands, their heads got too big, and they exploded, the onlu difference is my opinion that Animals was the kast real Pink Floyd album made for the music, not the money!
Peace, Love, and Gilmourish FOREVER! KC
“Perhaps this should be a solo record. I’ll pay you guys the money we’ve spent, and I’ll make this a solo album.’ No, they didn’t want that, because they know songs don’t grow on trees. They wanted it to be a Floyd record.”
This is what WATERS said about Final Cut in 1987.
He was a maestro. Just like that.
[In 1987 Waters had just lost the legal battle with Floyd and he was pissed. Really pissed. He said a lot of things out of spite. The truth about Final Cut was that Roger wanted it to be a solo album and he wrote and recorded it as a solo album. Rick was out and David and Nick was treated as hired musicians. They came into the studio, recorded their parts and left the album to Roger and in large part, Michael Kamen (ALL of the orchestra arrangements are Kamen). The reason they decided on making it a Floyd album was the fact that they didn’t dare to do it any other way. Well, Roger and the record company didn’t dare. Pink Floyd had lost most of their money after Wall due to some bad investments and they were more or less bankrupt. Nobody knew who the individual members were so it would have been a huge risk and required a massive promo campaign to release the album under Roger’s name. It is also fair to speculate that everyone was aware that the band was over but none didn’t quite dare to take the step. Nick was lazy. David was keen on playing but didn’t have the guts to start his solo career (he was “forced” later on due to financial problems and by the record company) and Roger was perhaps well aware that the album wouldn’t have done shit without the Floyd logo. Personally I think Final Cut is some of Roger’s finest work and it’s one of my favourite Floyd albums. – Bjorn]
@ Keith
I may not be open minded. I just want to ask, why Momentary Lapse of Reason failed to Impress?? And fact that The Final Cut struck massively, Floyd fans enjoyed it. I’m sure that Division Bell was one of the best, but most of the lyrics written by Anthony Moore and Bob Ezrin..
Momentary Lapse of Reason suffered the loss of WATERS, apart Learning to Fly, no other number had good lyrics.
I said Angus Young because, he composed, played ecstatically, wrote lyrics.
I said Mark Knopfler because, hez the only brick in that wall so called Dire Straits.
And Jimmy Page, we need to accept he can be called The Greatest.
Gilmour’s great piece of composition was his contribution in Shine On, WYWH, Comfortably Numb, Dogs, Echoes, and most of Meddle.
But of the Most, Waters wrote Shine On, WYWH, Echoes and Meddle.
Contributed in Dogs (Gilmour’s “You ‘ve got to be Crazy” song) and Comfortably Numb.
Since 20 years, I ‘ve been listening to Floyd, just Floyd.
Tried to shift to Led Zeppelin, Doors or some other stuff, but I am completely addicted to Floyd.
Trust me, My day starts with Shine On, ends with Wearing the inside out. Just Floyd.
I enjoyed waters kind of music, It was very psychic, different, especially his voice, ofcourse now its not good, but when he sang, Brain Damage, Shine On all those stuff, he had a Psychic voice.
@ Stephen Ford
I do respect Syd, no offence. He was the best.
It was a big blow, his departure.
But Dave for sure is the right replacement.
But Waters led the band from 1968-83.
That was a massive blow, their very next album’s failure.
Dave replaced him as Band’s leader.
The question is “Did the band get the same response from the crowd??”
Their soul was gone when SYD left. But for sure, Dave refreshed music like a perfume.
Their heart was gone when ROGER left.
That’s why people call 1985, The Fall of Floyd..
[I don’t think you can call Momentary a failure. It was a massive hit and the tour was the biggest they ever did. Apart from the die hard fans, most of the crowd didn’t even notice that Roger had left because Floyd were anonymous figures. True, Momentary was a huge step in another direction but so was the music scene all together. Prog rock was considered dead and the massive concept albums had lost the audience’s interest due to the focus on singles and MTV. Momentary was kind of “saved” by Learning to Fly but it wouldn’t have sounding like Dark Side or Wall with Waters on board anyway. It was a new era. Likewise, I have a hard time believing that Floyd would have survived with Syd… I think you also have to consider the massive pressure Floyd and David had in making the album. They had a lot to live up to and they put all their savings up for the album and tour to be a success. I’m sure this affected their ability to write true Floyd music, something which is clear on Division Bell, which is much more true to the spirit of the band. – Bjorn]
I’ll take MLOR over DB any day . I can’t stand his wife’s lyrics.
Oh, I almost forgot, you said Gilmour was a show off. Of all the guitarists you named, Gilmour is the least “Showy” of them all. Most of the time, DG stands in one place, the only show being the soulful concentration on his face. Page, jumped all over the place in skintight sequined bell bottoms, Blackmore walked to center stage to get the main spots on him during solos,Knopfler slightly more movement aronud the stage, Clapton pretty much the same as Gilmour,Santana, and his exaggerated “rat like” facial expressions, and lastly, come on, ANGUS YOUNG? How much more of a poser can one be? If not for his stage antics, he’d be playing Blues Rock bars in the outback! Your Graduate school hasn’t taught you to be open-minded, that much is obvious. And oh yeah, I have a degree in MUSIC!
Hello Bjorn! I laud your inclusion of the comments made by Chinni because it proves that you are fair, and will post even comments that many find totally out of line for a site devoted to the Gilmourish communities love of the guitarists work. Now, I would like to personally address his comments, and while this is MY opinion, I believe I will echo the sentiments of many in the Gilmourish community, Chinni, While I must admit that Mr. Waters is indeed a very talented writer, your use of statistical analysis based on liner notes, and information gleaned from internet sites in no way tells the Pink Floyd story, or who deserves the most credit for their artistic vision, or their success. First, While Waters is a great writer, that is pretty much his major contribution to the band. If not for Syd Barrett, I do not believe there would have been a Pink Floyd,(Especially since it was Barrett who coined the bands name on the spot, when the name they were using, “The Tea Set” was being used bu another band on the bill of an early show. Barrett at the time was the main influence both lyrically, and musically, but because of his mental issues, his tenure was short. Enter Gilmour. When David joined the band, it was Wrights keyboard genius that gave The Pink Floyd their unique sound, but as they moved away from the influence of Syd, Gilmour’s soulful solos, and innovative techniques using the latest availible effects, that took center stage along with Wright, to give Pink Floyd it’s signature sound. Yes, Roger wrote a great deal of the lyrics, and sang many of the songs, but where does his musicianship ever shine anywhere close to the levels of the other band members? I will bet my life that had Roger not had Syd, and then David, he would never have been a rock star, possibly a writer, poet, or artist , but I can find nothing in his playing, or singing that would have made him a star. He was not considered the driving force in the band until perhaps Animals, when his ego took over the band so much that he fired Rick Wright, only to have to hire him for the tour, because Wright could never be replaced, Roger was replaced! In your post you mentioned several guitarists who you put above Gilmour, and with the exception of Mark Knopfler, (Really just another Chet Atkins knock off.), I see no one on that list who comes close to the talent, nor personal style of DG. While they are all fine Guitarists, they are all pentatonic blues scale players, as is Gilmour, but with a twist. Gilmour took the blues riff into unchartyed territory, the minor scale, and that is what sets hiim apart from all the guitarists you mentioned. You know the old addage about opinions, and what they are like, and that everyone has one, and they all stink, so instead of coming to a site that is about someone you obviously have a problem with, I’m sure there is a site possibly called, “Watered Down”, “The man who destroyed the band”, “It’s my band, and I’ll run it my way”, or maybe just “ROGER IS GOD!”. Yes Chinni, Waters wrote a vast amount of the lyrics, and got a great deal of credit for his musical input, but as far as the music goes, it was a group effort, with Wright, and Gilmour wirting the vast majority of the post Syd melodies. I may even step on some peoples feet by saying that as a band, Pink Floyds best work ended with Animals, the point where Roger really took over. While the Music is wonderfully arranged, and recorded, I find the Wall to be Rogers self indulgent ego at it’s apex, and find little in their later catalog that interests me. and lastly, as far as Rogers vocals go, (and I’ve done this.), I can put a clothespin on my nose, and nail his nasal, rather off key, yet unique vocals. Both DG, and RW have wonderful voices, and would have been well known musicians with, or without Roger, but I don’t think Roger would have made it without them. Please at least try to be positive if you are going to be part of the community. Like mom said, “If you don’t have something nice to say, SHUT UP!”
Peace, Love, and all members of PINK FLOYD made them the band they were, not any one! KC
[Thanks for your comment, Keith. Please see my reply below. – Bjorn]
@Chinni,
Nicely done, I really enjoyed having it all broken down!
I would debate the premise of this discussion at its core as much as I enjoy reading and considering all of the reasonings.
In my opinion (and many would agree) the greatest music Pink Floyd composed was birthed through the collaboration of great musical minds and to give any one person the credit for their part alone misses the subtly of how musicians feed off of one another. I give Syd much more than 8% based on the amazing path that his imagination took them on, one that lasted far beyond his span with The Floyd. Honestly I still find the best of Floyd to come during Syd’s years and shortly after his leaving and then slowly sinking downward towards The Final Cut. David still makes amazing music, and is and will always be a great inspiration to me but his later work is a lot less original than it once was…perhaps more accessible but much more commercial.
In my opinion Roger and David needed each other to be the best they both could be, and to separate the two is pointless.
When musicians loose site of how the others around them contribute to their own greatness you get exactly what happened to Pink Floyd. Roger Waters became lost in his all mighty Tower, Wright’s role was down played to the point of non existence in Rogers eyes and the band lost out as a whole.
How Waters could ever have gotten to the point of loosing sight of the magic that came from the union of his friends still amazes me. Wright to me is such a great part of what I love about Pink Floyd.
So Roger vs Gilmour??? Whats the point?? Wish they could see that they were better together as I think they all did their best work together… few would argue that DSOTM was anything less that an amazing creation, or argue that Wish You Where Here doesn’t get deeper into the soul than Floyd after they split. Hell I still love Pipers At The Gates Of Dawn as one of my favorite LPs.
It is all great to pick apart but its important not to loose site of the Whole. Pink Floyd was a gift given to the world and to its members by the unity of one special moment in time when as luck would have it all the pieces of a grand puzzle came together.
[To Keith, Chinni and Stephen. Fun to see that there’s still some life in this old post! To answer Stephen first – Roger VS David… what’s the point? Well, my initial point when I posted a few years ago was to have a post for people to have a healthy discussion. It’s always fun to read people’s enthusiastic ravings about a topic that so clearly is without any substance at all :) I think I’ve share my view in about every reply but I can make a new shot…
There is absolutely no point in discussing which is better – Floyd with or without Roger. It’s all a subjective opinion. I prefer Floyd between 68-83 but that’s not because of Roger but because of their collective creativity. Floyd wouldn’t have sounded like they did without David, Roger, Rick, Nick or Syd… or Kamen, Ezrin, Harper, Torry, Parry, Pratt, Parsons and all the others that contributed on their albums. It simply would have sounded different without all these and it would have sounded like a different band without the members. Floyd ceased to exist after Syd left, after Roger left and after Division Bell. I don’t think you even can compare Dark Side with Division Bell. It’s two different bands and eras.
The arguments and lists that Chinni shared are fine but they’re wrong. It’s OK to discuss taste and preference but not facts. If you think Roger wrote everything just because it says so on the album cover, then you got the facts wrong. Sure, he wrote most of the lyrics and had most of the creative ideas but the band wrote the music and crafted out the ideas. Roger was a genius at writing lyrics and knowing how to dramatically arrange the music. However, he was not able as a musician to write all the chords, instrumental bits and the orchestral arrangements. A very large part of Floyd’s music should be credited David, Rick, Ezrin and Kamen. Not Roger. Even the majority of Wall wasn’t just a Roger piece.
So what’s the point? Well, Floyd without the combination of Roger’s ideas and lyrics and David and Rick’s musicality wouldn’t have given us Dark Side, WYWH, Animals and Wall. Simple as that. Roger nor David could have achieved anything near that alone.
– Bjorn]
I spent nearly eight hours yesterday on the web and calculated.
Of the fourteen studio albums by Pink Floyd:
contribution in music composition:
syd- 13
waters- 89
gilmour- 53
wright- 34
mason- 21
contribution as a lyricist:
mason- 2
contribution as a vocalist
Bob Klose, the unofficial member of the band, too performed along side the band for many years.
ron geesin, Alan Stiles, John Alldis Choir, roy Harper, bob ezrin, anthony moore and many others contibuted a little.
I’m a Graduate in Computer Science, I calculated on some statistical basis.
My results say:
Syd’s contribution to the band was : 8%
Roger’s contribution to the band was : 47%
Gilmour’s contribution to the band was: 30%
So that says, The Mighty WATERS contributed more for the band, and so hailed as the “Band’s Rightful Leader”
[He he, well OK… If that makes you sleep better at night. Perhaps you should read up on the Floyd history and not just base your research on the politics stated in the album covers. – Bjorn]
Talking only about music and performance,
Mark Knopfler, Jimmy Page, Angus Young, Eric Clapton, Santana, Richie Blackmore..
Dave Gilmour may come after them.
But Waters was, is and will be unique.
Floyd’s best number ever Shine on.. was written as sung by Waters himself..
Brain Damage, Pigs, Sheep, ABINTW parts 1 and 3, and lots of best numbers were written, composed and sung by him..
1968-85, what did Dave do, just sing what waters write and compose, most of them…
The division bell might have won a prize, but the fans loved DSOTM, Animals and Final Cut the most, In fact waters was a far better leader than Syd..
Gilmour was always a show off..
Hail Waters, he taught what was music..
[Well, you’re right about one thing – Roger wrote the lyrics for all of those songs. However, he did not write the music alone. In fact, apart from maybe Brain Damage, all of the other songs are a result of David and Rick, in particular, working out Roger’s crude ideas into the versions we know. Most of Wall is as much a Bob Ezrin and Michael Kamen album as it is Roger. He did not arrange half of those songs… sorry, but you’re wrong. But hey, it doesn’t matter. Roger and David were both genius in their own way. – Bjorn]
arshad says:
well, its simple enough……roger is all about lyrics and great ideas which revolutionized the “Rock ” plus concert…and gilmour is the man behind music … PF will not be PF with any of them missing…. soo cheers…and “shine on”
Niethcort says:
It sucks to see how people think of music as something that accompanies lyrics, music has to stand on it’s own or I would be reading a poem instead of listening to it.
I’ll be the first to say that I’m team Gilmour. Nothing in the world makes my ears tingle like the sound of his guitar (except maybe the sound of his voice). The lyricist vs. musician paradigm is pretty clear, but after the split (and on Final Cut), I don’t even think Waters’ lyrics are very good. In the old days, his lyrics were poetic and inspired, after the Wall, it all just sounds like angry political ranting, absolutely no subtlety. Say what you will about Momentary Lapse of Reason, it might not hold it’s own as an album like the old Floyd, but musically it has some spectacular moments. Sorrow is among the most spectacular guitar pieces ever played, and nothing cools me down on a hot day like Terminal Frost. And PULSE is pure magic. I will admit though, I’m not very crazy about it’s performance of Dark Side. Time just isn’t raw enough, and Guy Pratt makes the bass on Money way too busy. And Us and Them always disappoints me simply for the fact that on Delicate Sound of Thunder, the first measure is just guitar and keyboards with no bass and drums, and it’s the most beautiful 30 seconds of music I’ve ever heard, and for some reason, they decided not to do it on PULSE. Live, Waters bands don’t hold a candle to David’s. Snowy is a decent No. 2 to David, but as a lead guitarist, his sound has no soul. I think your analogy of them being a cover band featuring Roger Waters is very accurate. The one time his live show was really great was on The Wall in Berlin, but it is forever tarnished by the atrocities that were Joni Mitchell on Goodbye Blue Sky and Van Morrison on Comfortably Numb. There is one way though that Waters could produce a show that could compete with David – bring Adrian Belew (of King Crimson, Talking Heads, David Bowie and Frank Zappa to name a few) as his guitarist and lead vocalist. One of the most amazing and underrated musicians of all time.
Yeah it’s great music…lyrically though.. erm no.
I don’t think either of them were as instrumental as they like to think of themselves as being. Both have colossal egos, both consider themselves to be something more than Pink Floyd. In fact, they were simply cogs of the giant Floydian machine, mutually interdependent on each other as well as on Wright and (to a lesser extent) Mason. I love The Final Cut, and I can’t stand A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I prefer Waters to Gilmour. In contrast, I find Waters’ solo albums (without exception) dreadful, but enjoy immensely Gilmour’s On An Island.
Musician vs Composer
Instrument vs Maestro
It’s All Pink Floyd Guys!!!!!!
Direct Quote from Roger..re dark side of the moon.
When in 2003 he was asked if his input on the album was “organising [the] ideas and frameworks” and David Gilmour’s was “the music”, Waters replied:
That’s crap. There’s no question that Dave needs a vehicle to bring out the best of his guitar playing. And he is a great guitar player. But the idea which he’s tried to propagate over the years that he’s somehow more musical than I am is absolute f*****g nonsense. It’s an absurd notion but people seem quite happy to believe it.
Your answers are great by the way really eloquently put. Incorrect but eloquently put.
[Ha ha! Yeah well, I guess we can agree to disagree :) I think one can’t take neither Roger or David’s words as facts. They both have huge egos and 30 years of bickering obscures the hard facts. I wasn’t in the studio when Dark Side was recorded but I’ve heard most of Roger’s initial demos, over 30 live recordings from the 1972 Eclipse tour and most of the demos from the recording sessiosn (which BTW will be featured on the new remaster). This for me is the evidence that Dark Side was a group effort. Roger had the lyrics but they all came up with the concept. Even Roger admits to that. Roger has some very basic ideas for melodies etc but it was largely David and Rick that brought structure and developed the songs. It’s also easier to understand if you know something about how they write music. I’m not sure how experienced you are but I hear Roger on Breathe, Money, Brain Damage and Eclipse. That’s his signature way of writing. I hear David and Rick on parts of Breathe and most of Time. That’s they’re signature way of writing chords and arranging the music. Rick did most of Great Gig and Us and Them. Partly because these were his old compositions but also because it’s a well documented fact that he worked out the progressions during the 1972 tour and the 1972-73 recording sessions. Shine On was largely a Waters blues song and David and Rick created the dynamics and long instrumental parts. Cigar and WYWH is largely Waters I believe. Sheep and Dogs are very much group efforts although 90% of the music on Dogs is all David. That’s a well documented fact. Pigs is largely Waters. That’s his signature. Roger can say what he wants. If you get him on a bad day he’ll say that he wrote 90% of Floyd’s material. If you catch him on a good day he’ll probably say that David had some impact. David however will say that Roger was too lost in his traumatized childhood and forgot about the music. Neither is right. Roger can’t possibly mean that Floyd would have sounded like they did without David and Rick and he knows that but he also has personal issues with being fired from the band that he though the “owned”. That does something to your ego. David on the other hand needs to steer the ship and at least pretend to be the captain. It’s all politics between two stiff upper lip british gents swinging their swords. It really doesn’t matter. I think both Roger and David are genius. Final Cut and Amused to Death are some of my fav albums of all time. Much better than all of David’s solo albums I must admit. BUT I strongly disagree that Roger would have managed to write Dark Side,WYW, Animals and Wall alone. But again, lets agree to disagree :) – Bjorn]
It has everything to do with it when you are talking about “Musical Ability”.
No i dont think you have to write an Opera..But when you look at the Influence and Contributions each band member provided to the “Pink Floyd” the percentages are greatly in Rogers favor. Most of the time the other band members were going through divorces or other personal issues and simply could not be bothered to provide material for the group and the projects they were working on at that particular time). I think Roger would have gone on to do it alone too..The albums he knocked out after leaving the floyd prove this amused to death for example. I mean Roger wrote the lyrics and music for DSOTM so saying he wouldn’t have done it alone is nonsense it was in him before he met the other members. I think the band are great and gilmour too. I understand what each member brought to the work they did together but cannot get away with all the Dave Gimour fanboy’s getting their digs into Roger. Just remeber that next time your playing one of his songs on your guitars!
Not you personally Bjorn just the fanboys…
Great website by the way!!
[First of all Tony, the reason I started this thread some years ago was to stir up an idiotic debate… who’s the better. I think we all can agree that Floyd wouldn’t have sounded like Floyd without all four members. They all put their mark on the songs one way or the other. For me, one of the things that makes the hole feeling of Dark Side so special is Nick’s superb drumming. It’s not over the top or too fancy but just what the songs needed. Anyway, I’m always been into guitar playing and I like David’s style so naturally I favour him more than Roger. That doesn’t mean that I don’t value Roger’s work or genius. Of course not but I strongly believe that Floyd history has proven that he couldn’t have done it him self. First of all, he developed the ideas over time through the suite Man and the Journey in 1969, then several lyrics on Obscured and then Dark Side, WYWH, Animals, Wall and Final Cut. AND if you listen to the demo recordings of Dark Side and Wall especially you clearly hear that although Roger has the ideas and the concepts he’s not capable of writing music that we describe as the Floyd sound. That was David and Rick and Ezrin and Kamen had a huge impact on Wall. That can’t be debated. It’s history and even Roger more or less admits that he needed the input to turn his ideas into music. Dark Side, WYWH and Animals are group efforts. Roger wrote the lyrics and had some very vague ideas about the musical approach but the music is largely written by David and Rick. Just listen to the demo tapes and early live versions. That’s not Roger’s signature. Wall and Final Cut is largely Waters, Ezrin and Kamen. David and Rick had very little input. BUT all this doesn’t really describe who’s the better musician. What is a good musician and what makes a great band? Zeppelin would never have worked with just Plant or Page. Beatles would never have worked with just Lennon or McCartney. Floyd worked because Roger managed to write about universal topics in a way that few have done… perhaps only Dylan. He also contributed musically by always basing his ideas in blues traditions. David and Rick didn’t understand much of Roger’s lyrics and political point of view but knew how to turn his ideas and feelings into music that fit the concepts like a glove. Roger’s lyrics would never have had the impact without David’s soulful guitars and Rick’s celestial keyboards. That was the magical combination. Take one out of the equation and it’s not classic Floyd. Division Bell and Amused to Death is not WYWH or Wall. – Bjorn]
Roger , Over and Out! I’m sorry but anyone that thinks Roger Waters is a lesser musician than David Gilmour needs to read up a bit and get their facts straight. Pink Floyd before the Final Cut (the las studio album they worked on together..sort of) Was all about Roger. He Wrote most or nigh on all of the lyrics and music that we mainly remember the floyd for. DSOTM , WYWH, Animals, The Wall, I’m sorry i’m not too keen on the 60’s stuff. They only really started knocking out decent music around obscured by clouds. I can’t get away with all this Syd nonsense. They were better off without him to be honest. And after Roger left yes Pink Floyd played great concerts playing his music and singing his songs but the quality of their studio albums went down in my opinion also. Few decent songs on Momentary and Division Bell…A really poor solo album from Gilmour…I mean the lyrics were just terrible David. Yes he’s a great guitarist and easily my fav but it’s like….well the world is full of great guitarists and piano players etc..But only every decade or so do we get the Waters / Mozarts and Shakspears etc…The people who actually do the graft and write the material for others to perform. When’s your opera due out Dave. ?
[Who’s to judge what music and art really is? Do you have to write The Wall and an opera to be called a musician? I don’t think so. David and Roger are two completely different individuals – both as people and as musicians. Roger had the ability to come up with ideas and topics that were universal for all people. From The Man and the Journey, to Dark Side, WYWH, Animals, Wall and Final Cut he managed to write something that touched a lot of people. The reason is that the topics were about everyday life, the horrors of war, religion etc. Stuff we all can relate to. He also had the ability to develop a thread or concept and write melodies that would make it all in into music. This can be related to how the great composers wrote music, like Mozart, Beethoven etc. They all had a theme. However, I strongly believe that Roger didn’t have the ability to make music that would do justice to his lyrics and concepts. Final Cut, Pros and Cons, Radio Kaos and Amused to Death are all proof of that. Sure, Roger Waters alone isn’t as big as Floyd, but the songs aren’t much better than David’s poor lyrics. The combination of Roger’s lyrics and concepts together with David’s and Ricks musical abilities is what made Floyd what they were. Roger didn’t do it alone and in my opinion never could have done it alone. For me, David will always be the one with the best musical abilities and Roger the one with the ideas and concepts and the ability to point out what was needed for a song to work. I really don’t care who wrote an opera. What’s that got to do with anything? – Bjorn]
Ysolde says:
Guys…. seriously. Let boys be boys.
They always have been (especially rock musicians). The great thing about the whole concept of bandhood is that all members contribute in different ways to create something larger than the sum of the parts. As aptly adressed in the initial posting above, wherein the author wonders why Roger played so much better with the band.
Certainly, Roger is probably more the lyricist, Gilmour has the musicality down pat, but the key thing was always the exact context that was Pink Floyd. Not only of RW and DG – let’s not forget Wright and his amazing synth landscapes and artistical input, hugely overlooked as they are, and Mason’s intriguing soundsamples (Case in point the whole first track of of Dark Side).
Artistic partnership, from what I perceive, is in many ways as challenging as marriage. Add to the complexity there being several individuals involved in stead of two. On top of this, the experience of plunging from comparatively unforced creative expression before fame and breakthrough, into the sudden demanding world of having to produce art and perform with these people every effing day because it’s suddenly your work and you signed a contract with some people and everyone’s eyes is at your little artistic partnership of four people. Oh yeah, and one of your common mates going bonkers from it all, disappearing out of the game alltogether.
The music and lyrics of Pink Floyd alluded to their struggle with all these things from the get-go, as well as expressed their difficulty in accepting the nastier aspects of the music industry. Not strange that a collapse took place in the end – what’s admirable, I find, is that they managed to keep it going as long as they did, and turn all of the above into some of the most brilliant musical art ever along the way.
Me, I’ll keep my fingers crossed that Gilmour will play together with Waters on that performance of The Wall which I bought tickets for, because some things are bigger than the sum of their parts, and it makes no sense to account for individual contribution outside of the context.
Fletcie says:
Ok, this is a 5 year old topic. Just my 50 cents . Could the argument David VS Roger take place before 1985? I don’t think so. Million and million of people watched Gilmour’s Floyd perform since 1987. In the people’s hearts it was still Floyd. . Gilmour led version of Floyd had great sound and David performed all vocal duties magnificent. The man that wrote most of these songs though wasn’t there.
The Pink Floyd live shows without David are the main reason most people today prefer him over Roger. Its not just the people that went to the shows. Word spread out. Even in live 8 Roger bass lines were great, his singing was…crap. (although he’s better now in the wall live).
I watched “Floyd” in 1989, the pigs with testicles were flying, the lyrics were great. I wonder how great Wish you were here would be if it had the name “i sail in my boat” or “i want to buy an island”.
I love Roger’s guitar so much…(not only his solos) they define P.F sound.
But.. there’s a big difference in who is a great instumental player and who is great musician. Gilmour is a great musician.
Roger is better even if he really is an average bass or guitar player.
Gilmour is better live though, i admit that. But he’s not Pink.
Finn says:
Roger Waters is clearly the more talented of the two. David Gilmour is a great guitarist but a pretty average songwriter (hence his dull solo albums and ‘A Momentary Lapse of Reason’.) Roger Waters may not be as good a musician but he writes much better songs – ‘Amused to Death’, his third solo album, is my favourite album of all time, even ahead of Pink Floyd’s best work. Anyone who claims that Waters’ solo work is ‘unlistenable’ or not as good musically as Gilmour’s stuff is an idiot. It’s ten times better musically and there is no comparison as far as music goes.
[I must say I disagree. Keep in mind that what makes Amused what it is is not Rogers ability to write music but lyrics. Amused is like any other Floyd album, written by Roger and arranged by other musicians than him self. I love Amused but musically it doesn’t even come close to Dark Side, WYWH, Animals and Wall. No way. Lyrically… perhaps. – Bjorn]
Russ said (Ya I know he said this over a year ago)
Quote – “The Pros of David Gilmour:
1. Beautiful voice that creates a distinct sound. The vocals on Comfortably Numb, Us and Them, Learning To Fly, Echoes, Time, Sheep, etc are absolutely amazing. The man has the most amazing voice we may ever see. It creates a completely soft and perfect space sound that makes the world feel complete. ” – End of Quote
Was Sheep a typo? That would be Roger Waters you hear singing in Sheep. (and didn’t roadies, or was it Mason that read the Psalm part?) I definitely agree with the rest. Especially Wright and Gilmour singing together.
I overall would give Gilmour the musical edge. (You know I kinda feel like a Gilmour fan-boy and cringe saying that because when they were at their best, IMO, is when they all contributed to the music.) I seem to remember Gilmour saying that he had done quite a bit of the bass parts on the studio albums because he could play them quicker than Roger. I give plenty of credit to Gilmour, Wright Mason, and yes Waters for the great concepts, lyrics and lets not forget some of the music we hear is Roger on the bass and acoustic guitar, also didn’t Waters do some of the synth stuff in On the run?
Actually it’s interesting to find out who contributed what on their albums. Most people I know assume Waters is all bass parts, Wright all keys and synths, Gilmour all guitar work, Mason all percussion.
I’m a big Waters fan, but only a knob would believe he wrote note for note “Pigs,” but I don’t hear Waters running around saying that he wrote it note for note either. (only dopey uniformed fan-boys make those type of claims) When did Waters say “that was a wonderful solo I wrote for Dogs,” and that explosive finale solo in Pigs, I did a really good job writing that,” No! Pffft!
To me there is nothing wrong with Water’s acoustic guitar in that album.
I heard Gilmore rather liked that album, his talk box stuff on Pigs, to me anyways, was very expressive work by him. That is one song that Water’s voice alone suited quite well.
The song Dogs, Gilmour and Water’s voice worked. Enough of me blabbing. (I guess some may have figured out that I kinda liked the like Animals album)
When someone tells me Roger Waters was the genius in Floyd, I don’t argue, the same for Gilmour, Wright or Mason, I don’t argue with it. I enjoy all the members stuff and try not to “crank too much” when I don’t hear the Big Floyd sound when the other members are missing.
I’m not excluding Syd… It is interesting to me, that a lot of the Punk rock community, that I was around at least, really loved Syd’s solo stuff). Anyways, Syd you have places in many fellow musicians hearts.
I have to agree that Roger was definantly the man behind the ideas and not much the music. It really reflects in his live shows as well. Still, haveing said that, I`m still stoked to see him perform the Wall live in October, should be a good one.
I haven’t read through all of the 100+ responses, but I’ll respond by saying that it’s a ridiculous argument because ultimately, the band was not the creation of Waters or Gilmour in the first place. Anyone with an appreciation of history knows that Syd Barrett was the musical genious that formed the band (gave it its name) and put Pink Floyd on the map. Although I am a huge Pink Floyd fan and think that Waters is a fantastic lyricist (although most of his ideas were inspired in some way shape or form by Barrett, i.e. the theme of “Dark Side of the Moon”, “Wish you were Here”, “The Wall”, etc), he simply does not have the creativity of the late Syd Barrett. If Syd had not met his untimely and tragic fate, the band would more than likely have evolved into the most successful band of all time! Furthermore, there’s no doubt that the band would have been more prolific and given the world more than a handful of albums to enjoy. MP
a. lloyd says:
I dont think Gilmour gets enough credit for the success of albums like Animals and The Wall.
For example, most of the classic songs on The Wall are songs co-written by Gilmour.
Apparently, there are a lot of commenters who know nothing about music commenting on songwriting.
Yes, on Animals, Waters did write four of five songs on his own but there were produced by the whole band. Meaning the songs structure changed from Waters original ideas. Wright, Gilmour and Mason had a lot of input as they were the producers of those songs. And anybody with knowledge of producing knows what power that is.
I am willing to assume that Gilmour created many of the guitar parts on Animals but wasn’t given co-writer credits by Roger Waters.
[Credits are always the tricky part for a band and not least for Floyd who had a main writer who hated to share credits. There’s always a fine line between who’s contributing and who’s not. What is a contribution anyway? Do you get credits for changing a word in the lyrics? For slightly altering the melody as a vocalist? Who exactly wrote that chorus or bridge? At least on Animals, Roger came up with the basic ideas for all of the songs. Pigs on the Wing are his 100% while Dogs is perhaps more David and Rick than anybody else because they put their signature stamp on it in terms of melodies, solos, sounds etc. Songs like Sheep and Pigs are perhaps more group efforts like most of the WYWH album. As you point out one has to know how a writing process works. Cheers! – Bjorn]
sale pesic says:
Well, the only thing that I can be sure of is that Dave and Roger were TOGETHER in the band. None of them alone created anything even close to PF perfection. There is no sense in trying to judge them or take sides.
Waters is, was and, without Pink Floyd, would be one of the greatest songwriters ever, without him Pink Floyd would’n be such a supergroup. Gilmour is, was and would be a great musician but, additionally, he has lucky to meet someone like … Waters. It makes no sense to dispute who is better musician. There’s a lot of better musicians than Lennon, McCartney or Waters (specially in technical sense) but is it the matter? Their songs might be arranged by someone else, might sound differend, maybe better, but without them there wasn’t these compositions.
[Floyd wouldn’t have been without Waters and Gilmour figuring out the path after Syd’s departure. To say that either of them could have done it without the other is plain wrong. – Bjorn]
tommie k says:
I beleive, both waters,a nd gilmour,a re truly gifted arstist, that being said… gilmour is the guitar hero, extrordinaire, his solos are mind boggling, , I cant imagine a floyd without his guitar virtuoso, now waers on th e other hand , the lyrical mastermind, who created so many works of art, neither is better , they compliment each other, its all subjective anyways to each there own I like both but together,,, please reunite soon…
One interesting thing I’ve noticed is that plenty of people aren’t big fans of The Final Cut and A Momentary Lapse of Reason, as they don’t sound like ‘true’ Pink Floyd albums. The connection between these two records?- no Richard Wright (though I know he was on the AMLOR tour and played a tiny bit on the record). It’s hard to discuss which is best out of Gilmour and Waters without taking into acount the influence Richard Wright had on the music they wrote- without him and the keyboards and harmony he brought there would have been less to make Pink Floyd stand out from other contemporaries like The Who.
[Very good point! – Bjorn]
probably right about that i was just being very theoretical with that one
i dont see division bell as a guilmour album to the extent that momentary lapse was; rick seemed to be all over it
[Agree. Momentary is more so but I think Bell is a lot closer to Island and not just in terms of the sound but the songs are much more David, rather than him trying to make a Floyd album. – Bjorn]
I always find this debate rather cringeworthy but it seems its usually the waters fans who get shirty about things. I’m very much in the middle; my 2 favorite albums are The Division Bell and Amused to Death; with the wall up high as well. I could point out weaknesses in both Gulmour’s and Waters’ solo work as well as strengths. Rick is also constantly being underestimated in the context of this argument; he is the one who lays the foundations for both guilmour and waters to do their things.
We do seem to idolise musicians a lot because they are so influencial; thats the reason why such a childish fallout has caused so many floyd fans to take sides.
It’s also a bit of a union thing going; as you are a guitarist first and foremost (and a bloody good one) thats why you are more supporting of guilmour in the guitarist’s union. I think maybe its true that the people who consider theselves to be songwriters/poets/artists/innovators etc might tend to side with waters more because its probably more about the intense emotional feel than the polished output. That is just a vague assumption though I would consider myself more in the latter categoy but in both to an extent which is perhaps why i dont really take sides.
In conclusion, if the band wasnt so dysfunctional they wouldve made the unanimously greatest ever floyd album in the early/mid 90s; when you consider how their their creativities all seemed to mature with the evidence of Division Bell, Amused to Death and even Broken China (which has some brilliant atmosphere that only rick can create but on the whole only really works on one level).
[Or would they? I think what made Floyd so unique was the different talents, the tension and the ego. Up until Dark Side they worked as a band. After that it was pretty much built on four individuals trying to get as much of their own input on the albums as possible… Waters winning most of the time since he came up with the ideas. WYWH and Animals are both to some extent the result of a overworked live band worn out and struggling with forces within and with the music industry. Wall and not least Final Cut wouldn’t have happened or sounded like they do without the tension within the band. At this point Roger felt that the rest of the band didn’t contribute at least not to his standards and David wanted to take Floyd in a whole different direction. Last, Division Bell is a Gilmour solo album with Rick and Nick putting their sound on it. In my opinion, the dysfunctional band made the magic. – Bjorn]
This is a very interesting debate and one that I have been questioning lately. I first became a Pink Floyd fan when I was 15 (I’m 18 now), and my view of pink floyd changes everyday as I listen to new albums. The question of who is better constantly runs through my mind!
The Pros of David Gilmour:
1. Beautiful voice that creates a distinct sound. The vocals on Comfortably Numb, Us and Them, Learning To Fly, Echoes, Time, Sheep, etc are absolutely amazing. The man has the most amazing voice we may ever see. It creates a completely soft and perfect space sound that makes the world feel complete.
2. Guitar solos…the solos in songs like Money, Time, and Comfortably Numb are amazingly trippy and take you to the moon and back when you listen to them. I think that Gilmour is unique in his ability to capture an audience with pure sound quality. His playing is beautiful and I have never heard one Pink Floyd fan speak negatively about his tones. You also cannot forget how talented Gilmour is at slide guitar.
3. Sound mixing/producing: If you watch the VH1 documentary about the creation of Dark Side, you see that Alan Parsons and David Gilmour both had a huge role in mixing and creating the unique sounds of dark side. Without Gilmours expansive knowledge of sound equipment, Dark Side would not exist.
4. Solo Albums: I am a huge fan of both David Gilmour and On An Island. I listen to these albums and they are absolutely fantastic and you can hear the wonderful guitar.
The Cons of David Gilmour:
1. The Solo Albums: I know I listed these as a positive, but you listen to Gilmours solo albums, and they are not Pink Floyd! They do not sound remotely like Floyd. You still have the beautiful voice and the distinct guitar, but you lose the deep bass and drums that you can only attribute to Roger Waters and Nick Mason.
The Pros of Roger Waters:
1. Bass!!! When people tell me Roger Waters is not a musician, I immediately say, “Go Listen to The Happiest Days of Our Lives!”
If you listen to that song and don’t appreciate Roger’s bass licks, you need to pick up a bass guitar and try to play them. I can assure you his bass guitar is amazing.
2. Lyrics/Concepts/Ideas: Roger is a genius, and I don’t think anybody can deny that. To write albums that are not only a financial success but an artistic success because of the concepts is amazing. Yes the music was great, but listen to Gilmours solo albums. They do not have concepts and do not sound good.
3. Songwriting: Once again for everyone that says Roger Waters is not musical, please listen to Money, Eclipse, and Brain Damage. These three amazing songs from Floyd’s Dark Side were all written exclusively by Waters (except solos).
The Cons of Roger Waters:
1. Vocals: I cannot express in words how terrible some of Rogers vocals are. Some of the songs on the Wall, Such as Vera, have such a beautiful melody and then Roger comes in and ruins it with his whiny, annoying screams that really honestly sound like nails running down a chalkboard. He also ruins in the Flesh with his vocals…it sounds like he has rope tied around his testicles when he sings. And the worst part of all of this is that on the Dark Side of the Moon his vocals were so sick!!!! Why couldn’t he use the same vocals he did on Dark Side!!!
2. Solo Albums: Okay, so Roger Waters solo albums are not all bad. The Pros and Cons of Hitchiking is actually a really interesting album, and some of it sounds good too! Eric Clapton plays all the guitar on this album, and you can see that even a guitar legend like Eric Clapton cannot save Roger the way that David Gilmour did. I honestly like The Pros and Cons of Hitchiking, but Radio Kaos is pure dog shit.
Overall, I think that Pink Floyd is only good when Roger Waters and David Gilmour are together and are helped by Rick Wright and Nick Mason. When you listen to Rogers solo work and Davids solo work, you immediately see that they feed off of each other and that no solo work they do will ever sound as good as the Floyd. I wish that those old bastards would have swallowed their pride so that I could see them live, I am only 18 so I never got the chance to see them live together, except for the television coverage of Live 8, but come on. Now that Rick Wright has been eaten by the worms, persay, it will never be possible to see the real floyd. It bums me out!
My dream Floyd is Roger Waters not being arrogant, playing the bass like he did on the wall, not singing out horrible vocals that hurt my ears, and creative and provocative song writing that makes you think about your entire life. David Gilmour playing his beautiful melodic guitar riffs and belting out the most beautiful vocals on this planet, all while he mixes all the ideas roger gets into a presentable idea, and slide guitar that makes you tear at the eyes. Rick Wright playing keyboards and singing choruses with Gilmour, such as Echoes and Us and Them. And Nick Mason rocking the shit out of his drum kit while all this trippy shit is happening! Floyd is the shit either way.
If you think Gilmour is better you are right, and if you think Waters is better you are right. But what you need to realize is they are only best when they are with each other.
[Thanks for your post! I agree that Floyd was best when Roger was in the band. I’m not convinced that it’s because he had all the ideas as some will claim, but as you say, David and Roger created magic when they were together and I also want to add Wright. In short, David and Wright provided the music while Roger provided the ideas and lyrics.
I don’t agree that Dark Side wouldn’t have happened without David’s equipment knowledge. It’s the work of Chris Thomas and Alan Parsons. No doubt. Floyd probably had a lot of know how about how to produce an album at the time but if you know Parsons work, it’s all him. I also think that Roger had a lot more to say than David, who was more interested in the music. His producing skills came much later.
When judging David’s solo album I think you need to consider how they were made and when. None of them were meant to sound like Floyd. It was (and still is) a huge disappointment to many fans but nevertheless a misconseption. His first solo album was a hasty project between Animals and Wall. David was very eager to make a new Floyd album and enjoyed the Animals tour immensly while Roger hated it and put everything to a hault and wrote as some sort of a therapy. David’s album is very much a group effort between him and his band mates from Bullitt, the band he were in prior to joining Floyd. I love the album and although it could have sounded a lot different if he’d approached it differently I think it’s a great homage to David’s influences.
When About Face was released, Floyd was over… at least so they thought. Both David and the record company wanted to launch a new carriere and portray David as a solo artist… a guitar legend. The album is as far away from Floyd as you can get but that’s the purpose.. disappointing or not. Compared to his first solo album and On an Island, I personally think About Face is crap but there are some great songs on it.
On an Island is a different album all together. I don’t think there’s more Floyd in it than the previous two but it’s much more David and a thought through project. I think with On an Island David finally got to make the album he always wanted. It would have sounded differently 10-20-30 years ago but the process was just how he wanted it. To me, On an Island is what Division Bell would have sounded if it had David Gilmour labelled on the cover and not Pink Floyd.
I think David’s solo albums stands out better than Roger’s because David manages to write good music that lasts, while Roger’s ideas fall through without the proper arrangements and melodies… except for Amused to Death, which is a master peice in any way.
I agree that Roger’s voice is horrible at times but would Floyd have sounded the same without it? I think many of the songs are what they are jsut because of his voice. It underlines the song and lyrics in many ways and it’s a powerful contrast to David’s voice.
I also agree that Roger is a great bassist. Again it comes down to the fact that Floyd is stronger than the four and without Rogers style, Floyd sounds a lot different… hence Delicate Sound of Thunder and PUSLE. But you must also keep in mind that David did a lot of the bass stuff on the albums. Most of the Wall is David.
Dan Hetfield says:
man, you are totally right.
david gilmour was the musical talent in pink floyd, period.
waters was creative indeed, but david made it all come true [along with richard wright, of course (RIP)].
as a musician, i really, reaally love and respect gilmour.
without david, waters’ nowadays performances, concerts, sound just…empty…plain…with feeling or passion. right, he uses like 3 guitar players to try and fill up david’s parts but…it’s just not right, it’s not accurate and it’s definetively not what one would expect.
on the other hand, analyze david’s live performaces…they’re just flawless; tka for example the “live at gdansk dvd and cd”…it’s just beautiful, flawless, and he definetively does not need waters as much as waters needs him.
david gilmour rules.
i am still going for gilmour, he is the best 1000000 times better than that madman waters. does he have the charisma of gilmour, can he present any concert like Gilmour hats off gilmour gilmour the best is gilmour
take a look at momentary lapse of reason and division bell greatest albums with nerve cooling music does that waters ever have such music
just answer to this
There are three Pink Floyd albums that lack that all-important “band interplay” that is so crucial to Pink Floyd music: “The Wall”, “The Final Cut” and “Momentary Lapse of Reason”. “The Wall” succeeds anyway simply because the material is so undeniably good. “The Final Cut” is, for me, is simply a Waters solo record. “Momentary Lapse of Reason” is the worst album in the Floyd catalogue. It is a cynical attempt to sound like classic Floyd with none of the edge, atmosphere, lyrics or band interplay found on actual Floyd records. I love Dave, and just dropped a ton of cash to see him in NY next year, but MLOR is an embarrassment to any ardent listener of Pink Floyd, I admit that “Division Bell” was a vast improvement.
Auslander says:
In my view, the Floyd’s best music occured during the period when they appeared to be the most collaborative: Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and mayte even The Wall. Just as Momentary Lapse and Division Bell are virtually Gilmour solo albums, The Final Cut is even moreso a Waters solo album. At least, in Momentary Lapse and Division Bell, Gilmour allowed (indeed, appeared to encourage) input from the other members. The Final Cut is Waters, through-and-through. I like Waters’ solo albums (probably better than Gilmour’s overall) but none of the solo albums (even the best ones like Final Cut and Amused to Death) can compare to any of the Floyd albums.
I was just discussing this topic with a friend not realizing that it was such a popular topic! I googled it and got this site. I brought up the point (to my friend – who is a Syd devotee) that I had just recently watched both ‘The Pulse’ (’95) dvd and Gilmour solo from Royal Festival Hall/London (’01) as well as Waters’ ‘In the Flesh’ (’00). I was amazed that Waters did not sing a lot of the lyrics on ‘Flesh’. Was he afraid? Gilmour handled ALL of the lyrics on both Pulse and RFH with ease.
I’ve always been of the opinion that rock bands are ‘guitar driven’ (see VH, AC/DC, Zep, SRV, any Clapton project, Hendrix, etc.) and have always been a big fan of Gilmour. Floyd wouldn’t have excelled like they did without David . . . they would have been left with ‘See Emily Play’ as their legacy.
Love the site – sorry it took so long to find it – thank the gods for google!
[Thanks Steve! Glad you found your way through the jungle :) As you can see, the topic is very much alive and well and it seems to stir up some hard felt feelings from the fans. It’s not an important topic at all and one bound to be a bit partial given that this is a Gilmour site but it’s always fun with a healthy discussion don’t you think? Cheers! – Bjorn]
I think It’s increadibly mindless stupidity to argue or even write off Waters position in Pink Floyd they were a unit and a tight one I would not write any of them off because I think a true Pink Floyd fan will like all the bands members and does not have the arrogance to put them in contest its just outragious. I when to see Waters when he plaecy Dark Side of the Moon at liverpool and I think his performance was absolutly brilliant he really did bring out the best performance I ve ever seen Im still waiting to see Gilmour live but my views are still the same there equals in my opinion even though my favourite member of the band is Gilmour I would never even think Pink Floyd would have made it off the ground without Roger and he is an inspiration to me so please bear in mind the audiance your making this blog for because I dont approve of it.
[Fair enough but the reason I wrote this post was to stir up a healthy discussion. After all this is a David Gilmour site… not Pink Floyd. – Bjorn]
Auke van den Berg says:
What I miss in all these comments is the fact that in the ‘golden’ era of Pink Floyd (the 1970s) you never wondered who was ‘best’. Pink Floyd was a band, a group, you hardly knew who its members were, nor did you need to know (they made it a habit not to have photos of themselves on their album sleeves, a good thing because it tells you: it’s about the music, not about us). Things went downhill as soon as egos became important (admittedly, especially Roger’s), though I still like Animals, The Wall and The Final Cut. I do not consider the Roger-less PF albums real PF albums, they’re a bit like later Rolling Stones albums: still trying to sound like Pink Floyd but the magic is gone. I think they should have stuck to the non-ego principle and quit by the late 1970s. I’m not really interested in the Waters-Gilmour controversy. It’s like Lennon and McCartney: they brought out the best in each other, but it could only work for so long.
jabspike says:
Yes sir waters could play (the bass) and this is a question you did not ask can david nick or wright writ lyrics and the answer is no!!!! THAT is what made the pink floyd good rogers lyrics and davids music
DGRocks says:
Just a little perspective here. In 1986, Roger Waters claimed that “Pink Floyd touring without me would be like the Beatles without Lennon and McCartney”.
Pink Floyd came to the Capitol Center in DC and sold out 4 consecutive nights (I went to two of those shows and they blew me away!). Reviews were off the charts, excellent shows.
Waters played his Radio Kaos tour in the same arena a few months later and sold less than 50% of the tickets for one night. Reviews were horrible.
Waters has always thought more of his importance than there actually is. While I am certainly glad he was around, it is obvious that the guitar and keys are what makes the Pink Floyd what it is. He had good concepts, writing and ideas (except for the Final Cut) and the rest of the band made it happen.
DG > RW any day of the week, and real Floyd fans know that.
TUS says:
Hi Bjorn, I agree with the live sound and don’t think i would go to see Waters live as it just doesn’t match his quest for perfection in the studio and your backing a loser without Gilmour playing Gilmour.
However, i believe that just like the live shows, Waters would have had most of the control with regards to when and what was played and the overall sound in the studio from 72/83. Waters would have given Gilmour plenty of room to express himself with the solos and guitar tones etc but i think that as creator of most, it was his direction to the other members that glued their best albums together giving their unique sound. His awareness of song structure, texture and atmosphere is in my opinion stronger than the other members.
For me, The Pro’s and Con’s in many ways sounds more like Floyd than Floyd. It has all the same studio hallmarks that define their 72/83 period. eg songs all cleverly linked with sound effects with purpose and it’s as atmospheric as any other Floyd album. The other Waters albums have been crafted in the same way so they remind me more of Floyd in their earlier period.
I remember when MLOR was first released i thought it was kinda Floydish but all the uniqueness of the earlier albums was missing. It was just songs on a album like everyone else with effects here and there to try to create atmosphere but without any real reason other than well thats what Floyd do so lets put something here. (Hope DG doesn’t read this!) Nowdays Floyd sound like Floyd because thats the way they have sounded for the past twenty odd years. It is a great sound but as the structures changed they seem more like Gilmour albums rather than Floyd albums.
Again all in all its a tough call but i think Waters just shades it. If they were a painter, Waters eyes seen the vision and soaked in the atmosphere and Gilmour’s hands crafted the masterpiece. It takes both to create great art!
Hi Bjorn, best site on the net, afterall who needs tits n ass when you have so many Gilmour facts to fumble with!
Anyway, Gilmour vs Waters. To be fair, it should be Gilmour, Wright and Mason vs Waters in a post Floyd context. In a live performance the original musicians are always going to have the uperhand, particularly if you have in my opinion the best sounding guitarists that us mere mortals have ever heard. Lets face it, Gilmour could solo over postman pat with a black and white cat strapped to his face and would still sound heavenly!
So in my opinion it’s unfair to judge solely or primarily on the live performances as any gig with Gilmour will surpass all others. Moreover, Waters vocal style is unsuited to the live situation, as it’s all about whispers to a scream, phrase and word emphasis and a general vocal which is as articulate as Gilmour’s playing.
Floyd Years; For me it’s a bit like the Lennon and McCartney. They done all their best work when they where together and i think it would be hard to argue otherwise with Floyd. I believe Waters was the driving force and the creator of all their best work, with Gilmour adding the touch of musical penance, especially in the sublime solo’s that have inspired all on this site to play. Without each other there would never have been any of the classic albums, so in that respect, it think it doesn’t matter either way.
Post Floyd; I love all the Waters material, as it is typical Waters AKA Floyd (The Wall, Final Cut) etc. Dark, deep and unique. However, although i get the impression ( and it pains me to say this) that Gilmour’s Floyd have tried to remain true to the original Floyd sound effects, voices and oddity’s if you like! They seem to sometimes be put together for the sake of it rather that Waters keen perception as to when and where you should add obscurities for effect.
However, it is a joy to continue to hear gilmour’s solo’s since the break-up, with marooned being a song to die for. (don’t do it, life is good!) I also like many of the songs from both parties since the split.
They won’t get together again as Waters would have to take control in order to make another classic Floyd album. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it would have to be, so it ain’t gonae happen.
All in all, dusk to dusk, dawn to dawn, for million’s of year’s man just lived like the animals, then something happened, they heard PINK FLOYD!
[Well, I think we agree and as you point out, just like with Lennon/McCartney, Pink Floyd (all four members) are greater than the individual member’s solo career. Waters had most of the ideas and between 1972-83 he was the main creative force in the band. However, and what’s really my point with this post, is that although Waters had the ideas for Dark Side, WYWH, Animals and Wall, they wouldn’t have sounded anything near what they do if it hadn’t been for the three other members and especially Gilmour/Wright (Wright wasn’t too much involved in Wall though). Roger has the unique ability to hatch ideas and point out what he likes and how he wants it but Gilmour and Wright was always the ones to realize these ideas and create the atmosphere and unique sound of Pink Floyd. I think that’s what makes Roger’s and David’s recent tours so different too. Yes, it’s an advantage to have Wright on keyboards and vocals but I doubt Roger’s tour would have sounded much different with Wright instead of Carin. Roger tells his musicians what to do and they do it down to the last detail. Gilmour never tells his musicians what to do but he makes sure that they’re handpicked according to the sound he wants. Personally I think that’s a better way to make the old Floyd tunes more authentic. Roger’s band are trying too hard and one has to keep in mind that Floyd were never great musicians but they had a unique sense of creating textures and a certain feeling.
I think Pink Floyd without Roger is as much or less Floyd as they were with Syd. To some, Piper is the only true Floyd album but their most selling albums are from the “Roger era”. Personally I prefer Division Bell over Piper but I admit that it’s not really a Floyd record compared to Meddle or Animals. – Bjorn]
Gospel Music Lyric Page says:
Hi there Expert, what made you want to write on Gilmour VS. Waters? I was wondering, because I have been thinking about this since last Wednesday.
[Basically because I wanted to stir up some feelings and a debate among you people. I love them both… Gilmour and Waters. Cheers! – Bjorn]
Vincent Hanna says:
Roger Waters is the British equivalent to Bob Dylan: He should be locked in a closet to write his poems and never let out. He can slip his lyrics under the door for others to perform. The guy is a complete embarrassment when he performs. I couldn’t bring myself to see him on tour in 2006 when he performed DSOTM. I listened to a boot of a show later and I am glad I skipped it. Terrible! Live 8 showed that. When he burst in on vocals for WYWH, it sounded like someone’s dead aunt took the mic.
And if he’s such a great musician, why does he tour with another bass player? I mean who does tour with multiple bassists?
Someone earlier mentioned Water was the chief singer, and that’s not true. Gilmour sings all of DSOTM except when Waters takes Brain Damage/Eclipse. Waters may have sung most of the pieces on the Wall, but we all know his control freak history on that record. If Gilmour, Wright, and Mason had not kept Waters in check over the years, much of the PF records – including DSOTM may have sounded far too self-indulgent. The Wall has too many moments of too much Roger. It is too bad Waters was such a control freak and/or the others sat back and did nothing. I think it might have been a far better record – more to the standard of DSOTM and WYWH. As for the Final Cut, rubbish. Unlistenable.
And for all of Waters’ anti-war speeches, I happen to believe he’s a war monger. After all, if there were no wars, he’d have nothing to write about.
PF sans Waters may not be lyrically up to everyone’s standards (though I still like MLOR and Div Bell very much), musically those three of light years ahead of ol’ Roger Dodger. The music is mature, sophisticated, and complex. Waters still writes about Margret Thatcher with the same light and easy melodies rehashed from over the years.
Of all the members of PF, tho, Syd was the real writer, leaps and bounds over Waters, and Waters knows it and was always jealous of him. Had Syd not suffered from mental illness, I put his work over Lennon/McCartney – just an opinion.
[Wow! Even I don’t dare to be this outspoken :) I must say tho, that Final Cut has some great Gilmour moments. The solos are not groundbreaking but the tone is awesome. – Bjorn]
Ricky Gofourth says:
Roger Waters is a great musician is his own right, but……. Not only is he tone def, but he’s mediocer at everything he does. Also, tends to stick to one subject when writing his music. David Gilmour is adverse, much better musician, and signer than Roger. The only thing I give Roger is his placement of lyrics, set aside from the repeditiveness within them.
Lucas Ferrari says:
Well… What I think is… P. Floyd is not P. Floyd without Roger, as it is not P. Floyd without David. Same thing to Rick and Nick.
The band is only decreasing since the little fights and discussions have gain an bigger dimension…
I’m on Gilmours side. I saw Pink Floyd twice in 1994, and no other concert since has even come close to matching it (except Aussie Floyd, but that’s a different story) . The music, sound, the light show, it was just and awesome experience. Anyway, about 7 or 8 years ago Roger Waters came to town. I figured this concert woud satisfy my Floyd fix . . . . WRONG! Maybe I went in with my expectations to high, but the concert really was horrible. They sounded like a cover band butchering the songs. I started getting anoyed during Shine On, and by the time they had finished Money, I had enough. I actually walked out half way through the concert. I’ve been to alot of concerts, and that was the first time I have ever walked out in disgust. Roger Waters actually pissed me off enough to leave.
There’s hardly anything left to be said on this topic, but why not lumber you all with another opinion!
It seems general concensus that both Waters and Gilmour had huge imput into Pink Floyd, and with the two of them still going strong in their own seperate ways, the fans of both have a lot to be thankful for.
Personally, I don’t have a bad word to say about either of them, I recently bought David’s new DVD (it was as close as I could get living in Australia), and went to see Roger earlier in the year, and I certainly wasn’t disapponted in either.
I have to say, when people talk about the P.F. sound, very little (if any) of it comes from Waters. David and Richard have developed their own very unique style, and personally that is what I want to get out of the music. With no-one writing new tunes specifically for the Floyd (though David, Polly and the guys are doing brilliantly under David’s own name), it comes down to hearing either the authentic sound from David and Richard, or what is essentially cover music by Roger and his band.
In short, now that the definitive articles exist on record, it is a matter of the feeling of performance, and personally, I think there is more emotion in the voices and playing of David and Richard than there is with Rogers band, simply because no-one grasps the material like it’s originators.
I have to say in Roger’s favour that while lyrics don’t usually mean much to me, he always manages to be poignant and eloquent, but the Floyd were a musical vessel for his lyrics which is unequalled so far. Polly’s lyrics are always meaningful and stirring, but personally are easier for me to relate to because in my experience they tend to deal with less traumatic subject matter (Try listening to The Final Cut and On an Island back to back). Personally, the increasingly mellow music coming from David and Richard seems to suit it’s current place alongside Polly’s writing perfectly, and likewise with Rogers slightly more aggressive delivery and his current touring band.
It’s all a matter of preference, but ultimately, if you listen to their seperate work, (and I was surprised how much of the Floyd sound exists in Richards ‘Broken China’ album), the P.F. sound does not come from Roger. I have to say with the utmost respect for Roger and his work, if you are listening to him over David, it’s not the Pink Floyd sound you’re interested in, it’s Roger’s Pink Floyd ‘message’.
Waters had the ideas, Gilmour and Wright had the ability to take them, and tweak them out musically. Listen to Waters’ demos of Darkside found on ClASSIC ALBUMS. And in (what I think is right) an issue of Guitar World in 2005, Gilmour talks about his writing partnership with Waters in regards to Darkside. “Roger was keen on keeping the album very dry, and acoustic. I wanted it wet, and swampy with tons of reverb”. Waters’ demos were very basic, but because of Gilmour, Wright, and Mason’s playing styles, they turned it into what it is. You can argue blah blah about Gilmour vs Waters, who’s better who’s worse…at the end of the day, I’d rather see Gilmour, just because I know that live, he sounds a hell of a lot more like Floyd, which is what everyone loves. Waters, yeah, he sounds different live, tries to sing the songs that he didn’t sing on the record (Time, Us and Them), and for that fact, makes it sound different. NOt bad, just different. I saw him in 2006, a great concert no doubt, but different in some songs. And of course the people who TRULY know music and appreciate the unbelievable musicianship that the Floyd have given us, know that if you took Floyd as a quartet, and took one of those men out, you would not have a Floyd. Period. In terms of Waters’ not “getting it right”, I’d agree with Bjorn. Flat out, Comfortably Numb does not call for a dueling guitar solo…
Those two are like the yin and the yang. I’ve seen both live and they have different but equal styles. I saw Gilmour’s Pink Floyd three times and used to think Gimour was better. I just saw Waters in May. Waters makes it sound like the album, which is very cool Vera Lynn through Comfortably Numb sounded just like the Wall album. Gilmour seems more loose, and soothing.
[Not to be cruel but part of the reason why it sounds like the album when Waters is playing is because it is the album you’re hearing. He’s using backtracks/playback for most of the Wall songs (orchestra etc) and he is miming his own pre-recorded voice on stuff like Vera, Have a Cigar, Fletcher Memorial etc. – Bjorn]
Cshaw,
Okay, I will give you the point for calling “Dogs of War” a bad 80’s-style song, and it was, but I like it :D
Bjorn,
Haha, wasn’t my intention to exclude our favourite keyboardist from the credit he deserves, because Wright and Gilmour together are responsible for all the musical “geniousry” that Pink Floyd offered.
Cshaw says:
Just as a quick reply, of course this is all just opinion. I would liken this whole argument to the never ending “Who was the best Beatle?” debate. There are no definite awnsers. You could probably also try to convince me that George was the best Beatle because he was the great musician of the group.
To Matt:
Saying that Glimour isn’t as self indulgent as Waters is true but one has to look at Gilmours attempts at being a great song writer while falling flat on his face. Dogs of War? It was a bad 80’s song and that says a lot concidering all the bad songs of that era. Let’s not even try to put most of Momentary Lapse of Reason in context with Pink Floyd material because it is so lackluster. All of Gimours works without Waters sound very dated in my mind. Radio KAOS sounds very dated in Waters solo career but it stands alone in that respect in my mind.
I really think Waters would be concidered a much more influencial artist if he were a more likeable person. Gilmour is impossible to hate while Waters is very difficult to like. Waters has a terrible persona and I think that dampens his “legacy”.
Again, I love Gilmour, I love Wright, HELL I LOVE NICK MASON, but in my opinion Gilmour can not be a front man or an ideas man or a song writer. Let him tinker with melodies and effects to other peoples work and he is one of the most talented guitarist in rocks history.
Waters has had many talented guitarists play on his solo albums and none of them ever have the oppurtunity to really be great because Waters is so demanding and such a control freak. His songs are still more interesting and constructed much better. I will agree that all of his solo works are hard to listen to as a whole but many of the individual songs have their own unique merits.
To Bjorn: I agree Waters is a prick but it doesn’t effect my opinion of what he has done as an artist.
[Not at all… I deeply respect Waters for what he has created but as you point out, he’s difficult to like as a person and the way he behaves at times and what he says about the Floyd legacy really pisses me off. In my mind he is wasting his talent. I mean, Bob Dylan is known to be a pain but he is respected much due to his ability to work with other artists. Waters manages to ruin most relationships because he just have to have it his way. Eric Clapton quit in the middle of the 84 tour because Waters didn’t want the greatest blues guitarist in the world to improvise… But as I said, – he is one of the few great songwriters of our time. – Bjorn]
Cshaw, I seriously respect your opinions, but I see it as only that. This whole debate is purely subjective, so no one is actually wrong.
Gilmour and Waters working together is purely epic. This is due to the same reasons you said – Gilmour is the musician’s musician, while Water’s is the ideas man.
So it’s obvious why both sound unlike themselves while being without each other, expecially on solo albums, because Gilmour doesn’t have the heavy social commentary from Waters, and Waters doesn’t have the brilliant ability to bring it all together in an epic musical shell like Gilmour could.
As for 1994’s “Division Bell” tour, you should’ve expected “Division Bell” songs to be on the setlist. You don’t tour an album while playing only a couple of songs off of it.
It’s easy to understand why there were “Momentary Lapse” songs on the setlist; songs like “Learning to Fly”, “Sorrow” and “Dogs of War” were actually good.
No matter how you slice it; Gilmour is a great musician. Waters is a good ideas man. Do either of them make a great leader? No. Waters is like you said Cshaw; a perfectionist. Not only is he a perfectionist, he’s an un-comprimising type of perfectionist. We can see that with the results of half of “The Wall”, which could have been much better than it already was (it was an amazing album) if only he had lightened up.
“The Final Cut” was total rubbish. And when you look at it, it was in near every respect a Waters solo album. Looking at Water’s other solo albums, you just don’t have the level of listenability because Waters is so worried about being considered a profound lyricist by his peers rather than making a good album.
And that is where Gilmour is different. Gilmour is as self-indulgent as Waters, so he would rather do what he loves – play the guitar – instead of trying to write deep and profound lyrics. Making an overall good album, with quite flowing lyrics and great flowing music is far better than making purposefully over-the-top lyrics in an attempt to be profound and garbage-quality music to go with it.
And that’s where it stands. This is all my subjective opinion, but we can all agree that Gilmour was the musical genious behind Pink Floyd, and Waters was the lyrical genious behind Pink Floyd. But IMHO, Gilmour solo is far more listenable than Waters solo.
– Matt
[Great comment Matt! I totally agree. This is a Gilmour vs Waters post but let’s not forget the tremendous input from Richard Wright over the years. It was really both Wright and Gilmour that made Waters’ ideas come a live musically and there’s no doubt that David appreciate that fact as he brought him on for the latest tour to be able to re-create the magic they had. That’s one of the things that really pisses me of when it comes to Waters… that he gives Wright no credit what so ever. – Bjorn]
“(Side note: Although the album is over 25 years old, comparing the songs written by Waters on “Ummagumma†with the songs written by Gilmour there is absolutly no comparisson. Gilmour had 1 great song on it while all of Waters’ songs were quite unique in that time period)”
Small Furry Animals… is certainly unique, but is it any good?? Nope, it´s unlistenable.
Grantchester Meadows is a nice little ditty, but is it unique? Nope.
The Narrow Way on the other hand is very interesting. It holds the embryo of the sound and song structure that starts with Meddle. Their first really good album IMO.
I’ll keep it short. Roger Waters solo career was a crapshoot, nothing Pink Floyd did without him is worth listening too. See the difference?
I like a few reviewers saying how Waters solo albums weren’t great musically. Becks performances on “Amused to Death” are outstanding as are Claptons on “The Pros and Cons of Hitchiking”. Sure, “Radio KAOS” is a very dated sound but so are all of Gilmours solo albums.
Gilmour has a great sound and plays as passionatly as any guitarist in the modern/classic rock era, but the songs are so boring and dull that they are very difficult to listen to.
I saw PF on the Division Bell tour and was quite impressed with the visual aspects of the show while totally disapointed in the set lists and most of the older songs. More than half of the set list included “Momentary Lapse of Reason” songs and “Division Bell” songs which were just as boring live as they were on the album.
Seeing Waters on his ’99 tour (99 or 00) I was impressed with the setlist. Only a song or two from RK and the rest from his better solo albums. It seemed even he realized how dated and boring RK was and left it in the 80’s where it belonged.
There is no match for the early days of Gilmour in Pink Floyd, from Ummagumma on both Gilmour and Waters matured from album to album. This maturity in some ways hindered the band into believe songs like “Welcome to Machine” and “Have a Cigar” were creative and unique. Like all bands and artists Pink Floyd had a few stinkers and a few really fantastic works. It’s just how it goes.
In the end Gilmour is a shell of what he was with Waters because he is now the “creative mind” behind Pink Floyd and his own solo works, something that he really shouldn’t be doing. Gilmour was fantastic at getting tones to match voices, effects and Rick Wrights keyboarding, his ear for good sounding and good fitting guitars is second to none. His song writing and composission are terrible.
Waters was able to create several good albums after Pink Floyd because he is a perfectionist, a solid lyric writer, a fantastic song composer and he has a lot of unique ideas for meshing non musical components into music. His solo albums since the Pink Floyd break up have had a lot of powerful messages. Sure, these solo albums seems to be missing that wonderful Gilmour tone and unrepeatable synergy that Richard Wright and Gilmour were able to create, but they don’t lack heart and passion, something every Pink Floyd album without Waters and every Gilmour solo album has been missing.
I respect both for their contributions to music and my life, but the reality is Gilmour isn’t and shouldn’t be a leader. Waters has been and always will be a born leader with little true musical talent when it comes to playing instruments.
(Side note: Although the album is over 25 years old, comparing the songs written by Waters on “Ummagumma” with the songs written by Gilmour there is absolutly no comparisson. Gilmour had 1 great song on it while all of Waters’ songs were quite unique in that time period)
[You got balls writing this on a David Gilmour site… I’ll give you that. – Bjorn]
In the “war” between Gilmour and Waters, I’ve always been waving the Gilmour flag, but I by no means think that Waters isn’t due his rightful credit for the IDEAS behind Floyd.
Though, as it seems, people’s greatest memory of the Floyd is the ‘golden years’, ie 1969-1979. But the 1981-1994 Pink Floyd created some of the greatest songs of those eras. Mind you I think “Momentary Lapse” was certainly one of Pink Floyd’s least popular albums, but it was certainly a good album, just it was created by Gilmour with Waters’ style of leading the group, and we have seen the result.
1994’s “Division Bell” seals it for me proving that a Waters-less Pink Floyd was just as good as the old times, minus the high level of lyricism that Waters generated, the sort of lyricism that put Waters and Gilmour into their famous argument about the role of music and lyrics in a song, Gilmour arguing that music shouldn’t be a vehicle for the lyrics, but that they should work together to create a melodic artwork.
Either way, I respect both, though I feel that Waters has recieved too much credit for Pink Floyd, or at least, David hasn’t recieved enough.
strat player 21 says:
i hate waters, he sucks, he can’t even perform the 70’s period songs, (Shine on, DSOTM, Animals, wish you,) Gilmour with post water floyd does them better. Without the rest of floyd, waters is nothing. IF u see Roger perform in concert again Bjorn, do me a favor and flip him off, thanx.
[Steady old boy… – Bjorn]
Did you watch the Live Earth concert, I just did, and I saw Waters perform, wow all I can say is he just doesn’t have it anymore. His bass playing was off and so was his singing, plus he had backing bassists. He played Another Brick In the Wall. The lead guitarist really did a good job of capturing Gilmour in my opinion, however the other guitarist was not very good at all, his playing and tone were off, I’m sorry but I don’t think the Gilmour tone comes from les pauls into voxes.
[Yeah I saw it… What can I say… – Bjorn]
When I’m pissed at the world I listen to Roger and when I need a boost of inspiration and motivation I listen to David…Roger seems to have this “evil” way of doing things which in some way is cool and Dave’s sound is the “light”(not to sound like star wars or anything) so I guess its all about mood…although I prefer Dave I always recommend a Waters album first to all my friends….you cant have one without the other I guess…and that’s the way it is:)
PS thanks for the shirt and amp tips Bjorn!
[Yeah, I agree… Waters has that evil side and Wall and Amused to Death is doing the job when you want to feel sorry for your self. I think David’s first album from ’78 is my ultimate feel good album… The songs just makes you sit back and drift away. – Bjorn]
I am a younger Pink Floyd fan in that I really only got into their music about 3 years ago. I have read quite a bit on this forum about the difference between the live shows put on by David Gilmour and Roger Waters, so I decided to find out for myself. I bought the Pulse and In the Flesh DVDs to get an idea of what you guys are talking about. Hands down, Pulse is much better, in my opinion. For the most part, Pulse sounds like Pink Floyd. Granted, it helps that Pulse has 3 original members, but everything about the show was better…..the lights, the sound….When I watched In the Flesh, I felt like I was watching some locals covering Pink Floyd songs….yes, they are obviously better than cover bands, but the sound was so different. That left handed guitarist was interesting to watch….the first thing I noticed was the backwards strings he uses. That was weird to see and watch. He was very good, but his actions/movements were so distracting that it was hard to enjoy his playing….I thought he was having seizures half the time. And then there was that old guy who got his 30 seconds of fame with a little piece of the Money solo…but I was waiting for him to start smashing his guitar on the stage. Just too much overreaction in my opinion. As for the sound, I was trying to decide if I was listening to Pink Floyd, or Eddie Van Halen doing Pink Floyd his way. The guitarists were very good, but they were too good in terms of how they played their guitars….Pink Floyd is not a fast guitar solo band, and most of the solos were played very fast. I have nothing against fast solos…..my favorite guitarist is Kirk Hammett from Metallica…but not in a Pink Floyd song…..it was just too much and it completely took away from the emotion of the music. Now I will probably get flamed by RW purists, but thats ok, and I am sure someone will say that I need to see it live to understand the emotions of it, but in all fairness, I have not see either band live……I am only comparing what I saw on DVD. anyways….I enjoy the site.
[Hi Jason! Well, this is more or less how I see it too… I know that Waters fans hate me when I say this but you are correct, – it sounds like a cover band with extremely professional musicians and Waters as a special guest. There’s no Floyd wibe and I didn’t sense that when I saw them last year either. That being said, I enjoy Doyle’s guitar playing and tone, although he is a bit flashy. I also think that Dogs on the DVD is brilliant. Last year they played Sheep too and I was very impressed. But when they do Shine On with distortion and Les Pauls and duels on Comfortably Numb I just loose interest… Sorry, but Waters has a way of destroying his own songs… – Bjorn]
Of course Roger Waters is a great songwriter. But Pink Floyd calssics are made of lyrics AND music.
Post Syd’s Pink Floyd music is an addition of talents: Waters + Gilmour + Wright + Mason. How would sound a song like Wish you were here without David Gimour? Like a Leonard Cohen Song? He is also a great songwriter… ;)
It´s also interesting to note the credit order on The Wall album sleeve.
It says Produced by David Gilmour, Bob Ezrin, Roger Waters. There´s no way Waters would have allowed that order if the input of Gilmour and Ezrin hadn´t been overwhelming.
I agree with Bjorn, if it hadn´t been for the first two, it would have sounded like The Pros and Cons.
BTW sales figures are based on the amount of disks not albums.
[I think that Ezrin’s contributions on the Wall is often overlooked. He (and Michael Kamen) wrote most of the orchestra arrangements and The Trail is all his… Waters had the idea and chord progression. If you listen to the original demos with only the band (“Under Construction” bootleg) the songs are very basic and some are even quite different than what ended up on the album. I think Waters had very strict ideas on how he wanted the album, the story line etc and then Ezrin came in, wrote the scores and used a lot of time re-arranging the story line and the songs. Obviously the band changed alot during the recordings and worked out some great ideas but I think Ezrin was the man that came in and sort of did the producer’s job seeing everything from a different angle and gave the project a push in the right direction.
You’re right about the sales figures… The Wall has sold about 12mill copies but since it’s a double album it counts as two. It’s rather strange as it doesn’t reflect the retail price with discounts etc but that’s how it works. In essence Wall has sold about a 1/3 of Dark Side. – Bjorn]
David#2 says:
Hey bjorn waters wrote 99% of the wall. It should actually be called”roger waters the wall because it is a historical fact that the wall is when waters had his strongest grip and it just so happens that its there biggest selling album with 23 million sold and also 23million making it tied for the third biggest selling album of all time. ROGER WATERS DID EVERYTHING FOR THE WALL KNOW YOUR HISTORY ITS A RECORDED FACT
ROGER WATERS FOREVER.
[Well, it would be interesting to hear how Wall would have sounded without Gilmour, Bob Ezring and Michael Kamen… What if Gilmour hadn’t written Comfortably Numb and Run Like Hell, which both were intended for his first solo album but Waters thought tehy were too good too waste on a non-Floyd album. In fact it was Bob Ezrin who suggested that Another Brick in the Wall (part 2), Pink Floyd’s arguably biggest hit, should be made into a disco song. Waters’ version was a slow song similar to Another Brick 1… You would have ended up with nothing more than Pros and Cons of Hitchiking and I doubt anyone would call that album genious. Waters wrote the lyrics, most of the initial musical ideas and had the whole concept, but come on… you can’t possibly say that Wall would have sold 23mill copies if he had done it as a solo album? Sorry mate… – Bjorn]
David. says:
Im goingto be a little harsh so get ready. Anyone who thinks gilmour is better then waters is a complete wannabe. Lets look at the facts. Roger waters wrote basically ALL of there great albums. He wrote dsotm, the wall, atom heart mother, anmals, saucerfull of secrets plus many more. Do any of you people know what this means??????? it means that lines like” little by little the night turns around-” no when told you when to run you missed the starting gun”_”so ya thought cha might like to go to the show all these great lyrics were written by ROGER WATERS, not your wannabe gilmour. So what if he great at playing guitar the words are what made floyd what there are today. A guitar can be copied lyrics can’t Do i think gilmour is a great guitar player?? ABSOLUTLY do i think he was a huge force in pink floyd ABSOLUTLY but nowhere near the amount that roger waters was. I’ve seen waters 3 times live 99,06,07 just 2 days ago at the philla show-WOW WHAT MAGICAL SHOWS-SOLD OUT AND AWASOME. I’ve also seen floyd without waters, WATERS WAS BETTER PERIOD. Let me end this writting by saying that ive spoken to about 3 dozen old heads about this topic at the 3 shows ive been to(guys between the ages of 50 to 60+ guys who used to drop acid and see pink floyd back in there glory days and id say 95% off them agreed WATERS WAS PINK FLOYD. Anyone who thinks im wrong just remember 3 things. 1. your not a true floyd fan your a wannabee 2. the majority off fans agree waters was floyd and most importantly HE WROTE EVERYTHING THEY ARE HIS SONGS AND NOTHING YOU SAY CAN EVER CHANGE THAT.
WE LOVE YA ROGER KEEP IT GOING FOR THE REAL FLOYD FANS.
[Well, I’m glad that you had a great time seeing Waters live at judging by your comment here it seems that you’ve haven’t completely landed mentally after the show. Please be careful judging people who disagree with you… Everyone is entiteled to their own oppinion and you can’t really argue with taste… just share views. Anyone who says that either Waters or Gilmour IS Pink Floyd is wrong. Pink Floyd consisted of four members and of course Syd was a leading force in the first couple of years.
You seem to know much about the Pink Floyd history, but let me ask you this… Have you even listened to the albums? Before you can claim to know who did what you need to know your history. Everything from A Saucerful of Secrets to Obscured by Clouds was created by the whole band. Everyone wrote an equal amount of songs, even Wright… Mason has never been a huge contributer to the songs, apart from his drumming style. Atom Heart Mother was written based on a chord sequence Gilmour had been fooling around with. Echoes was a piece they all wrote individual sequences to and pasted everything together. More and Obscured by Clouds are two soundstracks the band wrote together in a week or so. As you should know, both of these as well as Atom Heart and Meddle has great contributions from both Gilmour and Wright.
You’re right about Waters having the big ideas for Dark Side, WYWH, Animals and Wall. He wrote the lyrics and most of the songs. However, you are blinded by what you hear on the albums and it seems that you have no idea what any of the other guys have contributed. Do you think Waters just penned everything rigt out of the blue? Do you think he wrote all the music, all the chord sequences and had ideas for the arrangements? NO! That was mainly something Gilmour and Wright handeled. Their signatures is all over the place and you should recognize that before you judge. There wouldn’t be an Us & Them or Great Gig without Wright’s pieces from the late 60’s. There would have been no Shine On without both Gilmour and Wright’s riffs and chord sequences. There wouldn’t have been a Dogs without Dave’s chords. And there would have been no Comfortably Numb and Run Like Hell without Dave’s inital demos for his solo album. There wouldn’t even be a The Wall without Bob Ezrin, who actually wrote huge parts of the album but only got a few minor creds. These are the songs that the fans remember…. sadly, Waters has taken credit for them all. Creds for a song is politics… nothing more. It is something fought over and written down in tons of binding agreements. Do you think Lennon/MacCartney actually wrote all those songs together… Nope. After 1965, the whole thing became a brand.
So, please know your history. I totally respect your views and couldn’t agree more that Waters is a genious but I also think that he acts like a foolish spolied brat when he, 60 years old, still can’t cred the other members for contributing. Waters wasn’t Pink Floyd. They all were. Why do you think their performance on Live 8 sounded so good? – Bjorn]
Adi Corrales says:
Well… I think this post will never die as people as me can find it jejeje….
Many things had been said about who is better musician… but can you set the comparation parameters? How can we compare Gilmour to Waters or Waters to Gilmour? Is there a list of musical questions that we could make, that give us some COMMUN points, and set a qualification? I think there is not….
Is not fair to ask: “Who write the best lyrics ever?” or “who writes the best all times solo?” we should find commun aspects and compare that points.
Now, we can’t find that points in the Floyd Era, because they both have a role in the band and they (for good or not) follow that roles (’till The Wall at least). But now, they have thesame roles in their own bands. Now we can compare, for example “Who is most creative in the visual aspects of the show?” “Who is most interested on create new and better sounds?” “who is most interested in said something that can change the world?” and so… this will not give us an answer, but we are going to find comparations points. As Tim Renwick saids in his interview (not exactly) “Waters like exactly the same every nigth and is much more fun to work with Gilmour…” What is better? it only depends on what do YOU like.
Anyway, I have the chance to see Roger last march in Mexico. The show were amazing, the visuals aspects were great and the vibe of the people do the magic, but, beeing realistic, the show was not a surprise. The same songs of all the tour, in the same order and so…
I don’t have the oportunity to see Pink floyd when they came with the Pulse tour, and Gilmour seems no to like to much latinoamerica, but then, it cames the question… Talking about music… What’s better to you? the good old know and no changes DSOTM with Roger Or an amazing and fresh SOYCD in the David Gilmour’s dvd?(can’t remember where it was..). I really prefer a Roger taking care (or seems to, at least) of what is happenning in our north border (with the USA), but, sincerly, I stay with Gilmour as a musician, because he can write only love songs as good (or as bad, if you like) as many people in the world (of course, not me) but they all sounds fresh and diferents… Roger writes great, no doubt, and altough he had a lot to said, a lot of his songs SOUNDS the same to me…and what is music all about?
So, Who is better? It deppends of the “Battlefield” and “Weapons”…
Bjorn: Great site. There is no doubt that if there is a page named “Waterish” This page will be the best! ;)
[As long as there are two parts in one case, there will always be people who debate who’s better…. Lennon or McCartney, Star Wars or Star Trek, Apple or Windows…. People like to share their oppinions and I guess some even wants to show that they know more about one side than the oponent. Still, as you say, it will never be more than a personal oppinion. Music and all other art is very personal and you can’t say that something is bad… You can say that you don’t like it but you have to respect the ones that do. Thanks for your comment! – Bjorn]
This debate seems to be endless… In my opinion, every band member’s contribution have been important to elaborate the Floyd’s sound (I mean Barett, Gilmour, Mason, Waters and Wright).
Even if you reduce it to Gilmour and Waters (in the post-Syd’s era), their importance is 50/50. Pink Floyd without David Gilmour would be like the Rolling Stones without Keith Richards… Because like David Gilmour in Pink Floyd, Keith Richards alone IS a very large part of his band sound.
Of course,during the 80’s and the 90’s, the ‘Waterless’ Pink Floyd have missed inspiration and creativity. But on his side, Waters did not seem to have so much inspiration at this time: The Final Cut is definitively not the best Floyd’s album, and his work after that is not so amazing. Ok, Amused to Death is the exception, but what else? Only one good album in a 25 years period, it’s quite disappointing!
About the texts, everybody, including David Gilmour – and me – agrees to say that Roger Waters is definitively a great songwriter, far better than Gimour…
But I have to say something important: here in France (yes I’m another Froggy), and in many countries I visited, most fans only speak -and understand- a very basic English… When they do have English notions! So many persons all over the world who like so much Floyd’s classics DON’T UNDERSTAND A WORD in these so beautiful and well written Waters’ songs! It’s sad to say but that is the truth and you have to keep it in mind. For all these persons, Pink Floyd is a sound before anything else. And what characterizes this Floyd’s sound better than Gilmour and Wright playing together?
PS – I would like to thank Bjorn for all his work on this fabulous site. It is a real goldmine, not only for Gilmour or Pink Floyd fans, but for all guitar lovers.
[Good points! … and thanks a lot for your compliments! – Bjorn]
Kristopher Junner says:
I agree with everything Bjorn has said.
As gilmour became less involved the quality of musically decreased, compare ‘The wall’ and ‘The final cut’ to the likes of ‘Meddle’ ‘Dark side’, ‘Wish you were here’ and even ‘The division bell’. Animals is the exception, although gilmour is only involved musically in ‘Dogs’ the others are also great.
The waters dominated albums definately miss gilmours music though, even on the wall, t he best song is comfy numb, where the music was written by gilmour. I love the final cut, waters singing is very emotional and he is very passionate, but my favourite moment on the album is still gilmours solo during ‘the final cut’.
Waters is a fantastic song writer no question, in fact, apart from Bob Dylan I cant think of a better one. He is clearly a very clever man and he knows what he wants and what he likes, but his ego is definately a negative side of him, i read that ‘uncut’ interview he did and its sickening how much credit he takes for the best Floyd work. He even said that when the audience saw him at live 8 he thought they would be thinking “ahh so thats the guy who actually wrote the stuff”. WRONG! he wrote the lyrics, the actual music was composed by all band members (unless we’re talking about the final cut and most of the ‘the wall’ where the quality in music, although still good, is inferior), with major major contributions from Gilmour and Wright.
Its a shame because ive read interviews with Gilmour that have disappointed me too. He doesnt try and take anything away from the rest of the band but Gilmour makes it pretty clear that he isnt willing to forget his bust up with Waters.
I was supposed to see Waters in manchester on 07/05/2007 but i missed it because i needed an emergency operation in hospital. I have no doubts it would have been an entertaining show, but i really dont like his arrangement of some of the songs, and his guitarists just dont do it for me. Snowy White is great, but his style is so different from Dave’s and that other guy is flat out sh*t, sorry guys, but i had to say it. They raped comfy numb with that guitar duet.
Waters is a genius, Gilmour is also a Genius, together with wright and mason (2 more genius’s) they made Pink Floyd, the greatest band of all time. They all needed to be contributing to make works of art like ‘echoes’ that is clear. But as far as solo work goes, i definately think Dave had the better live band. I just wish Waters to drop the ego and acknowledge the massive contributions the others made, especially Dark Side.
On another note, the site looks great Bjorn, the best Gilmour site on the net along with his own, keep up the great work!
[Thanks a lot for the compliments and I do agree with your comment. I think Roger still has some huge demons inside and he seems to have some pretty severe problems with his self-confidence. I can understand that he feared that no-one remembered him but first of all, he chose the anonymous lifestyle in the 70’s and second, he left Pink Floyd. Still, after touring for nearly 8 years, selling out every single show, he must by now know that the fans love him and know exactly what he did in Pink Floyd. He acts like a spoiled little brat… “mine! mine! mine!”. Is he that insecure? I loose some respect every time I read interviews like that. Sorry… – Bjorn]
T.J. Sapp says:
OK. There are a lot of Roger Waters fans, and I’ve already posted my allegience to Gilmour and no arguement here has changed that. But, the thing I don’t understand is all you people who are saying things like “forget Pink Floyd as a whole and forget Gilmour and listen to Doyle Bramhall Jr. (who in my opinion isnt really that great of a guitarist since he doesn’t have any actual emotion he’s just trying to impress people) or listen to Water’s solo albums or all this shit about just ditching Gilmour for Waters…. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU POSTING IT ON A DAVID GILMOUR SITE!!!!!!!! quit whining about how you dislike the bias here and how you are offended that Bjorn would ever say something remotely insulting to your lyric/songwriting god and how crappy of a guitarist you think Gilmour is and start your own sites as a tribute to Roger Water’s lyric writing. Now I’m not directing this to the Roger Water’s fans who obviously have respect for David Gilmour, I’m writing it to the Roger Waters fans who don’t even like the guitar god himself, and some of you people don’t even like Pink Floyd you just want to start some heat about how great Doyle, kilminister and snowy white are, if you don’t like David Gilmour as much as Roger Waters then more power to ya’, just don’t tell everyone on a tribute site to David Gilmour ’cause we are die hard fans of Gilmour and we get pissy when you start that kind of stuff.
~T.J.~
p.s. – sorry to all the Gilmour fans who have to scroll over these harsh words, and thank you again Bjorn for the amazing site, Gilmour truly is a guitar god
It was a truely happy coincidence that those two (Gilmour and Waters) found each other and were able to create the PF-sound, together with Rick Wright and Nick Mason.
It´s sad that the Waters fanatics aren´t able to see the the teamwork behind this great band.
They are great musicians and innovative forces both of them, but Gilmour has the upper hand when it comes to melodies and harmony.
Waters just lack the ability to come up with good tunes. A talent I think Gilmour has plenty of.
Compare A Momentary Lapse of Reason to Pros and Cons and The Division Bell to Radio Kaos and there you have it.
Not even Clapton or Beck (Amused…) were able to turn Waters ideas into something enjoyable.
I think that says a lot about Gilmour´s input.
Still, I fell Gilmour needs the input of Waters aggressive personality to be the icing on the cake.
[Good points, although I have to disagree with you regarding Amused to Death… it’s one of my all time favouites. Anyway, to me, Waters has always been the lyricist and Gilmour the musician. Together they’re dynamite, but I absolutely think that David has managed better on his own than Waters. – Bjorn]
koush says:
just like you say it takes a musician to put roger’s ideas into instrumental pieces… it also takes a musician and a true amazing lyricist to put rogers ideas into words..
no way man… the lyrics that rogers writes are every bit as good and important and ejoyable (if not better) than the intrumental pieces gilmour does.
look at amused to death.. its too good to describe. thats an example of rogers working alone and still pulling off an amazing job.
look at the albums after the split.. not nearly as good with the exception of a few songs in my opinion (like high hopes.. wearing the inside out)
gilmour has said in his interviews that to this date he still struggles with writing lyrics (which is pretty clear to me even if he didnt say it)..
bottom line, both are amazing.. i cant say which one i like better.. and i dont agree with ppl who say one is better than the other.. each of them was amazing at a different thing and together that made a great combination of what is called floyd.
junaid says:
awesome website. i’ll try to keep it general and try not to get repetitive (although the whole spectrum of opinions have more-or-less been covered). We agree that PF is greater than either RW or DG ever have been or will be as solo artists. I also agree that RW is a lyrical genius and DG is an amazing guitarist. As far as my experience is concerned, the first thing that gets my attention of any band or song is the music, more so than the lyrics. And for that, I have to give DG full credit into making me a PF fan. Of course, once I started paying attention, the lyrics sunk deep. Now the albums done together could not have been done without either artist, but frankly, no matter how good of a lyricist RW is, without the music, he does not shine above many poets, playwrights and philosophers of the post-modern era. If he did, we would be reading RW in various forms of literature instead of just listening to him through music. The reason we ever heard him is because of the musical vehicle. And for me, that would not have happened without DG. simple.
On the same note, I should say that it’s subjective what one considers the “best” guitarist. i think under many criteria DG would not be exceptional at all. but it’s his interpretation of music through the guitar, his psychedic sentimentalism that outshines almost any other guitarist.
And last, while I consider Syd to be a genius in his own right, the evolution of music within the band since he “left” has been quite remarkable. So much so that I believe PF would not be the same band with the same music had he been around. And while i am a die-hard fan of the band during Syd’s time, there is no saying how much recognition PF would have received over time. Especially because i find Syd’s tastes to be the least mainstream of the 3 (forgive me for leaving out the other band members, trying to keep this short). Therefore i truly feel that when people refer to the essence of PF – *largely* defined by the ’65-’85 era (or many prefer to define it as the Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall era) of Waters and Gilmour – then they should realize that while Syd was responsible for beginning the evolution of the PF sound, he really was much less central to their sound in that time. For instance, I can’t see myself giving Syd any significant credit for DSOTM and The Wall, two of my fav PF albums. I just wanted to put that into perspective (esp for me since i am a big Syd fan).
Coming back to the present, I think currently both RW and DG in their solo albums have diverged enough that they can’t even be compared. And in this regard, personal bias (as seen on this board) often only reflects personal preference of current musical and lyrical styles that shouldn’t overshadow the genius of PF as a result of the combinatorial duo. (Gosh, i hope i made sense…).
Lastly, despite who might sound better and who embodies more of the “PF sound” now, there really isn’t any solace to the disintegration of the band as our generation has seen. :(
[Great post! I totally agree. I basically wrote this article (it’s almost a year now) to start a debate… it’s always great to hear other people’s oppinion and this topic sure stir up some deep feelings for the most of us. It’s really not important at all, – who is better, Gilmour or Waters. It’s like arguing why someone prefers apples over oranges. Music, or art, is a very personal thing. Nevertheless, one can always have a nice debate why one prefer one over the other.
One fascinating side of this topic is how much Syd Barrett has to do with Pink Floyd after he left. He was a founding member and the creative force in the first period, but when he left (or was told to leave), Pink Floyd miraculusly managed to create their own sound and carried on without much sign of a deep loss. One can argue if this is true or not, but the fact is that the whole Barrett legend thing didn’t start until years after he had left. In 1968-69 most of the fans didn’t even know that Gilmour was the new guy or if there had even been a Syd Barrett. This was mostly due to the fact that Floyd did a massive promo tour with Saucerful in spring ’68 and Gilmour was a part of it all.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how Pink Floyd would have sounded if they had formed the band without Syd, starting with Saucerful. Would Wish You Were Here and the Wall have sounded the same? We’ll never know and Pink Floyd would probably never have excisted. But I do think that Syd’s memory has haunted Pink Floyd ever since he quit. His talent was a huge inspiration, but I also think that especially Waters felt guilty and sorry for how things turned out, which his lyrics often reflect. I also think that Pink Floyd them selves got caught in the whole Syd legend thing, and perhaps unconciously it affected their music. – Bjorn]
you’re totally right!
I have to say that your website is absolutly awsome! Also I totally agree with the Gilmour vs. Waters issue… but I think Waters had a little more say in things then “I like that”. I think David joining the Floyd was one of their best decisions, I believe David helped them get past Syd and to keep moving forward and make and new and unique sound… who knows what would have happend if he did hadnt become part of the Floyd? David’s muscian skills are AMAZING and even though it probablly wouldn’t pass as being good now days, I think his voice is also wonderful. Thanks for making such a wonderful site!
(P.S.: Sorry if I spelled half the stuff I wrote wrong.)
[Hi Winnie! Thanks for your compliments! – Bjorn]
Wow… I don’t know how I managed to read every single comment, if anything just to get an idea, or confirm the idea that this senseless argument of “who is better” is so lame and absurd.
Bjorn, people tend to miss your comments in that “National Enquire” tendency of looking for faults in others rather than concentrating in what they are good at… in Floyd, we have very distinct eras, all of them extremely good, if you dont forget the context in which they were created… for God’s sake, can you truly compare Bike with Money and Watching TV or HighHopes?… Come on… Pink Floyd was and will be way more than what any of their members could claim. It is not difficult to listen to any of the solo albums or of the band and not being able to find something that connects it all.
I can easily listen to About Face (Let get m…), Amused to Death (Perfect Sense) or Broken China (Breakthorugh) and I can feel the connection to Wish You Were Here.
Pink Floys is Syd Barret, Roger Waters, Rick Wright and Nick Mason… no more no less… those guys on their own are still the same, just the times changes, they can choose to evolve or not, or go back and forth if they wish… they have the talent and the experience… which is better? Who is to say?… we need to be there or at the same stage to pass a judgment, we can only have opinions, everybody is entitled to them… but, that doesn’t make it true…
PF songs get under your skin either because of the words or the melody or the combination of both… you pick depending on the mood your are in, and that’s what’s great about it.
That’s the mark of good artists…
As a performing musician for the last 28 years, I can tell you that the goal of performing, recording, write songs, singing, ir to reach out (or in) and make your audience part of you or give them a piece of you.. when that happens is magic, and man theyknow how to do that… they never needed a proven formula, they never followed trends or the commercial easy way like many… and they are still there, if anything to have a bunch of people arguing about these things.
It shows we care… it shows that we love what they do, or done.. that’s it..
Better guitarrist? Better lyricist? Sure… and then some… look around, any of them can kick ass to 99% of the crap that’s being around since they have been around. That’s what is important.. they are not Gods, they are not perfect, they never pretend to, but they are great artist… and art is more than your set of skills or talents… is what you do with it.
Bjorn… love the site… I guess I visit it more often that I do the Fleeting Glimpse or Brain Damage… cool stuff… I have downloaded every single file you have there.. stolen as much info as I can (including the GT-3 settings for God’s sake)
Shit, if we never have PF again, I have seen live all versions and solo acts, except the Barret era, have every recording or books or video available and then some…but, then I can come here and dream a little bit.
[Thanks for your comment Daniel! I’m proud to know that you enjoy my site :-) I also agree with that it’s all a matter of taste. I can’t argue with someone who loves Roger more than Gilmour, but we can express our views. A group is depending on all members, no matter how big or small their contribution is… Still, it’s always fun to start a debate and let people express different oppinions. As you say, this is all because we love the band so much. – Bjorn]
I think David is so f*ckin’ good…I mean, His sound is incredible,man,he is a musician just like Roger but they´re completely different. david knows how to touch our hearts with his solos.He´s amazing. You can’t say david isn´t a great songwriter. I love On an Island and and all his albums. Sorry about my english.
But I still like Gilmour sound and I,m still trying to figure out how he got all these beautiful and inspired guitar sounds
Go figure this one out
I like them both
And by the way Waters should drop all these old Floyd songs from his shows and only play Pros ans Cons,Radio Wave and Amused to Death integrally That would be AMAZING
Gilmour has nothing to say (and even him knows it)
There are thousands of good guitarists,keyboardist,producers,musiciens (including Gilmour)but how many good songwriters ? Waters is the quintessence of songwriting (and I won’t talk about his voice here,what a voice) I love the Pink Floyd Era and i like Gilmour sound and playing (By the way my favorites Floyd album are Animal and Final cut)But I’d rather listen to Pros and Cons,Radio Wave and Amused to death any time of the day
Some people prefer the messenger to the message
That’s not my case Thanks
Don’t forget…60% of the recorded basses in records of Floyd are great…, are those recorded ones for Gilmour :)
[David on a question whether he or Waters played bass on Hey You – “Roger playing fretless? Are you mad??!!”. – Bjorn]
efrenbaron says:
…. I just saw Roger Waters Performing the dark side of the moon…. I must say that going to that show was like going to a tribute show… i didnt feel a thing. He doesnt have the Floyd vibe. And you wont let me lie about this… All of the songs that have become singles… who is singing????? .. the man himself. Gilmour. Personally the only album that i find a bit boring and anti-floyd (because of the song estructure and the short songs ) is the wall. And curiously the classic songs of that album are the ones that gilmour co-wrote with Waters..
Just think about this for a second for God’s sake.
Roger plays his bass with freacking shity wireless system and he don’t even sings money. I guess he is too old.. He is still playing dark syde of the moon as his main act. The songs he played of his solo album were the ones the people chose to go to the bathroom… Plus. He is so Rockstar and selfish.
Gilmour . my man. He plays his spends tons of money tryng to achieve a more organic sound. He plays his guitar with a coaxial cable connected to his amp to sound better each time.. He just stays there in one spot to do his thing and to sing better than you can ever sing in your whole life. He has done almost 5 albums ( including a momentary lapse and division bell ) without roger and all of them kick ass. FINALLY. HE HAS 60 YEARS AND he sings incredible….
Ok I know roger was a good man at the beginning and that he shared some good ideas. But as gilmour said. HE TURNED FLOYD into a vehicle for spreading his lyrics. He forgot about the concept of the band itself. When music Was way more important than lyrics. And tell me folks.. Do u listen to a floyd song and say “oh i like the way the bass sounds.. i dont think so.”
so go a ahead “CReative Genious of Pink Floyd”…. gilmour and the guys are just laughing about you and your shity way of singing.
You´re probably right, it´s all on the surface. I´ve just read the interview with Roger in the Uncut magazin. He still can´t help himself but to spit on his bandmates, although he says that he regretts doing so in the past.
Pathetic and so unnecssary from such a great talent.
[Seems like he has some severe self-confident problems. – Bjorn]
Hi James, you have learnt your ” Gospel according to Roger Waters” by heart I see.
But the fact is that Water´s solo works,especially The pros and cons and Radio KAOS are completely devoid of melody, harmony and sensuality. Amused…is better but not much. Whereas Gilmour´s soloworks lack edge and purpose but everything else that make up good music is there.
They were a very good TEAM. Gilmour has always stressed that fact and now in his older and wiser age Waters seems to begin to acknowledge it as well. The ” Gospel” is tentatively changing it´s harsch dogma. ;=)
[What surprises me is that Roger, who claims he has moved on and become a stronger person, still feels sorry for stuff like giving Mason the creds for Speak to Me and for not singing Have a Cigar. Instead of touring with the purpose of keeping the Floyd history alive and celebrating what one of the greatest bands of all times achieved, he does it with the intention of showing everybody that it was all his work. Waters didn’t move on… he never will. – Bjorn]
ummm, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND TO SAY THAT IT WAS ALL DAVID WHEN IT COMES TO MUSIC?!!!!!! EXCUSE ME BUT I DO BELEIVE THAT ANIMALS, THE WALL, AND DARKSIDE WERE ALL WRITTEN BY ROGER LYRICALLY, AND MUSICALLY. I ALSO DON’T THINK ROGER WOULD EVEN CONSIDER RELEASING ANOTHER ALBUM UNLESS HE LIKED EVERYTHING ABOUT. IF YOU THINK KNOW FLOYD, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW THAT ROGER TOOK COMPLETE MUSICAL CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING THAT FLOYD DID. THE ONLY THING DAVID WAS ALLOWED TO DO WAS WRITE SOLOS. ROGER MADE EVERYONE IN THE BAND DO THE MUSIC HIS WAY, OR NO WAY. ROGER MUST HAVE HAD MUSICAL TALENT TO PRODUCE THE ALBUMS EVERYBODY KNOWS TODAY. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU EMBARRASS YOURSELF.
[Well first of all, I haven’t said that Pink Floyd IS David Gilmour. He is only 1/4. That’s why Pink Floyd’s reunion at Live 8 sounded like Floyd… all fours members were up on the stage…. even a rusty Mason. Second of all, I’m entiteled to my own oppinion just as you are. You should respect that. To me, David is a far greater musician that Roger. As I’ve written in the piece and in noumerous answers, I respect Roger for what he has done…. without him we wouldn’t have had any of the Floyd albums from Saucerful to Final Cut. He had the ideas and the pen. Christ, Amused to Death is on my top 10 list! But if you accuse me of not doing my homework, regarding who did what, then you should really consider your own knowledge about Pink Floyd. Haven’t you seen the creds on each song? Haven’t you heard a single demo or bootleg from the 70’s? Everything shows that Roger had most of the ideas and lyrics, but THE BAND arranged the songs TOGETHER. Listen to how Dark Side evolved throughout 1972, a year before it got released on an album. Listen to how Shine On evolved from being a another endless 12-bar blues to a soulful duett between David’s guitar and Wright’s synths. Both Dogs and Sheep was played throughout 1974-75, two years before they got released on Animals. The songs changed dramatically. Listen to the demoes from The Wall. The songs are very crude and lack the touch of both Wright and Gilmour, and not to forget Bob Ezrin’s arrangements. Before you accuse anyone, YOU should do your homework. – Bjorn]
cem says:
When Pink Floyd was Pink Floyd, David Gilmour was my best guitarist. He created the sound and theme of all good old Pink floyd songs. I admire him and Roger as a Pink Floyd fan. But when I heard Doyle Braham II in In the Flesh concerts, I was first surprised how talented this left handed guy is and how come Roger accepted such gum-chewer in his very disciplined equippe. I realized that Doyle must be a very special guy. He is able to immitate all the sound and virtue of David, that’s alone is something, but actually he also has his own style. I listened to him in his own works and also together with Eric Clapton. He is marvelous. I think it’s time that a younger talent to replace David’s top place. We will never forget David, but Doyle rocks now…
[Ah… riiiight. But, I’ll agree on one thing, – Doyle is a hell of a guitarplayer and technically far better than Gilmour. Doyle learned from one of the best, – Steve Ray Vaughan. He plays some really impressive stuff on the Waters DVD, BUT in my oppinion he doesn’t come close to David’s tone and feeling. – Bjorn]
WOW that post of jan remind me someone..mm.. who? of course!: Roger Waters!!. Isn’t it great how one can hate in others what it is very inside of us?
I think we have a great theme here to make a progressive rock’s song!!
I’m not going to create a debate here. For me the true pink floyd was: Waters, Mason, Wright, Gilmour and of course Syd. I’d rather think in Pink Floyd as a team and his rupture and painfully separation as a reminder of what could happen to people if the EGO in BOTH parts of a disagreenment is incapable of settle down.
And of course, my deep admiration for David Gilmour is not enough to make me change my mind about many of the issues in this confrontation: Roger was right in many of them, altough I can understand perfectly the course of action that Gilmour chose and I don’t blame him. He still is the best rock’s guitarist!!
Also I am guitarist and fan of Pink Floyd, specifically of the Gilmour era.
My vision of the separation is as musician.
It tries to be part of a band (4 people) with world-wide recognition and to see that one of members in determined point wants for itself all the artistic direction. It’s simple, you will not be felt comfortable with this situation.
I agree to Waters in Dark Side DVD when it says that “it does not have pureness in the motivation for the rockâ€â€¦ What I do not agree is that if you if it says part of a band always knows of its responsibility as band, or recognizes the moment to leave for an single artist and admits this necessity.
Asperger says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspergers_syndrome
I got Aspergers Syndrome. You all probably heard of it…
People with Asperger have difficulties with social behaviour (can behave egoistic and arrogant against other people) and are not so intelligent (some people with asperger need help with clothes on and such stuff, pretty like small childs). But may have a special interest that they are very good at (in my case, making music, playing the guitar and listen to Pink Floyd)
But wait… this is supposed to be about Roger Waters vs. David Gilmour!
OK. I like Pink Floyd mainly for their “un-normal” music and, of course, for Roger Waters/Syd Barretts lyrics and David GilmoursSyd Barretts guitar playing.
I have always recognised some of me in both Roger Waters and Syd Barrett (most RW). I’ve read that Syd Barrett may had suffered from just Asperger Syndrome.
If Roger Waters was more musical than David Gilmour or Syd Barrett then it would NOT sound Pink Floyd. If Richard Wright never listened to jazz-trumpeter Miles Davis “Kind of Blue” (ranked as the best jazz-album ever) it would NOT sound Pink Floyd. If Nick Mason never ever took driver license then it would NOT sound Pink Floyd :)
If Roger Waters teacher never beat him up in school it would NOT…
If the nazi-pilot never dropped the bomb over Anzio in 1944…
I could go on for ever.
Roger vs. David… they’re both great in their ways.
!!!AND THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!
It was Rogers idea to kick out Syd both for Syd’s good and the bands good. It was Roger who first, even if he was so unsure of himself, feeled that it was he who had to take control over the band after Syd. And thank god he did.
He contributed with weird sounds on Interstellar Overdrive that is very musical in a way. (well Nick Rick and Syd did som great improvising on IO to but almost everyone seems to think that Roger Waters is NOT musical. He was the bass player and song writer in the best band in the world for god sake.
The REALLY BAD THING about him (Roger…) is of course that he never (as far as I know) gives away money lake the ultra-kind David Gilmour. That he took a lot of credit for songs and that he hated Nick Mason’s drumming in the late 70’s. Nick Mason is my 3rd favourite drummer of ALL TIME! And Rick Wright is the best keyboardist I’ve ever heard with Ray Manzarek of The Doors and Jon Lord of Deep Purple as 2nd and 3rd.
And Careful With That Axe, Eugene is the best song Roger Waters ever written. Time is the best LYRICS he ever written but CWTAE is the best SONG… it’s like INSTRUMENTAL WALL. With the scream representating… something. Well this isn’s http://www.songmeanings.net …
WOW THAT WAS SOME LONG COMMENT.
Last words before I go to bed: Stop saying so bad things about ROGER WATERS. I know he does not look good, that he has a large nose, that he never was as good on bass as David Gilmour… he’s just a weird old man with some painful memories of the past that made him write the best lyrics ever written by man.
There are people that is much more meaner than him. (Not me, though, he he).
Ben Culture says:
In utter ignorance, Asperger said: “The REALLY BAD THING about him (Roger…) is of course that he never (as far as I know) gives away money lake the ultra-kind David Gilmour”
If you’re at all interested in FACTS . . . Since 1975, Roger Waters has donated 25% (one fourth) of all his personal income to a charitable foundation for the poor, homeless, and malnourished. He never even sees the money (nor does the taxman); it goes straight into the foundation. (Waters does not publicize this. It was relatively unknown, until writer Dave Thompson set out to write a biography strictly about Roger Waters, not the whole band.)
Even David Gilmour cannot say he has given away 1/4th of his money for over 30 years.
I see a lot of ignorance on this page. People (like Asperger) just make statements that “feel” right, in their “gut”. I do not respect this way of belief — “bellyfeel”, George Orwell termed it. This is the Internet, the greatest wealth of information in all of human history. It has never been easier to educate yourself for free. This beats the Library of Alexandria. There is no excuse for making things up anymore.
Soft-rock musician David Gilmour bores me. I prefer the sharp-edged artistry of Roger Waters. Solo. Having seen Waters 4X, I never miss Gilmour. The only significant mistake Roger Waters ever made in his solo career would be Paul Carrack. I watched as many bootlegs of The Wall Live as I could, before they were taken down, and I can say in absolute seriousness, Dave Kilminster outclassed Gilmour playing Gilmour’s own solos. Probably just because he is younger, more ambitious, and simply cared more about getting it right. How can Gilmour put sincere passion into “Comfortably Numb” every single time he plays a concert? It’s not possible. I’m a musician/songwriter/guitarist myself. I would grow bored with the same song, after 36 years, and that’s what it sounds like. I liked the Live8 performance for the way all four of them jelled.
Gilmour’s guitar solos are not the star of Pink Floyd anymore. Roger Waters is playing “Dogs” live again, only this time with Kilminster instead of Doyle Bramhall II. And Kilminster kills it.
I attended “Pink Floyd” concerts in 1988 & 1994. I left with a feeling of disgust and bitterness. The “camp” approach to “Run Like Hell” bothered me most — talk about a “cover band”! It sounded like “talent night” at a summer camp for at-risk children!
I am also thoroughly bored by any version of “Comfortably Numb”, and can’t respect Gilmour until he retires it from his onstage repetoire. Imagine if Billy Joel played “Just the Way You Are” at every damn concert he ever performed, for his enitre career . . . That’s respectable? No. Do something fresh and new, Mr. Gilmour! Break out of the E and B blues scales. Try playing alone with “What God Wants Part III”, if you can handle the four key changes.
“Shine On You Crazy Diamond” is divided into 9 parts, with different credits for each part. For example, Rick Wright wrote Part 9 alone. Waters is credited on 8 of the 9 parts — he wrote instrumentals as well as lyrics. And he ALONE is credited for part 5 — the melody/vocal section, that makes it a “song” instead of a “jam”. Roger Waters is a songwriter, not a mere lyricist. The best songwriter Pink Floyd ever had. One of the best rock songwriters alive today. (Gilmour is not even in the top 20.)
I guess this is where Bjorn sticks in the last word? Go right ahead . . . I suppose you own the site or something, so you might as well control the dialogue. Roger’s band is superior to Gilmour’s. Now have your last word . . . .
Terrence Reardon says:
Ben, Roger got stifled with age creatively and lyrically. Roger cannot write good lyrics anymore. I heard snippets of this new album and it sounds like bad Radiohead (and I can’t stand those clowns). I waited 25 years for a new album and instead I get a damn dirge, I’m skipping Roger’s tour because of his LIP SYNCHING and also finances and schedule conflicts! If he can’t sing live then (I agree with Bjorn) he should RETIRE! He lied about getting singing lessons, he records the vocals in the studio and plays over the PA while he mimes. Even Neil Peart of Rush has written better lyrics than Roger in the last 35 years. If you think “Leaving Beirut” and much of Amused to Death is gold, you are so far up Roger’s keester that you can’t spot the flaws of Roger on his own. I think songs that Neil Peart wrote the lyrics for like “Limelight” and “Superconductor” (both swipes at the illusion of the music industry and fame), “Losing It” (about one who loses their talents to age and Roger is now living the lyrics to this song “many years ago how the words would flow with passion and precision but now his mind is dark and dull by sickness and indecision” and “sadder still to watch it die than never to have known it”), “Red Sector A” (a song about the Holocaust survivors), “Afterimage”, the songs on Power Windows, “The Pass” (a song about the pains of committing suicide done to uplifting music), Counterparts and many of Rush’s albums have held up because they don’t name bomb events and can relate to anyone or anything. Listening to The Final Cut is pure 1982/83 and I only play when I’m dealing with depression despite the fact it was the first Pink Floyd album I ever owned as a 7 year old in 1983 thanks to “Your Possible Pasts” and “Not Now John” getting boatloads of airplay on US rock radio). Some songs on Amused to Death drag on and KAOS has songs I disdain and Pros and Cons was saved by Eric Clapton whom Roger could not keep a choke collar on because Eric would play different solos on a nightly basis).
You troll David Gilmour forums you dirtball with your manlove for Roger Waters. You call David SOFT ROCK?!?! WTF?!?! Until We Sleep, Murder and All Lovers Are Deranged fall more into the hard rock category. His first album was hard rock and blues rock. On an Island was mellow yes but got me through the period where my mom passed. Rattle That Lock is my second favorite Gilmour solo album after his first.
To me Pink Floyd was the music of David Gilmour and Rick Wright married with Roger’s lyrical concepts which was from Atom Heart to Wish You Were Here. Animals was where the band feeling was lost and I listen to live versions from 1977 more than the album.
I may get shot for this but my Top 5 lyricists
1) Neil Peart
2) Pete Townshend
3) Bob Dylan
4) Ronnie James Dio
5) Roger Waters
YES, I have Dio and Peart ahead of Roger.
I saw Pink Floyd in 1994 and still the best show I ever attended and I’ve yet to try drugs like pot and so forth. That cold May night in 1994, David Gilmour and Rick Wright and Nick Mason played superbly. What I love about David is he SINGS LIVE and plays different solos every night. If he screws up a lyric or botches a solo, IT’S ROCK AND ROLL. Seen Roger FIVE TIMES (1999, 2000, 2007, 2010 and 2012) and while the In the Flesh tours were amazing, Roger Waters is now watching a Broadway play. Doyle Brahmall was Roger’s best guitarist, he played what he wanted every show (not every solo was a carbon copy of David’s). Plus reminded me of Stevie Ray Vaughan which was also awesome! The VI part to Shine On had Jon Carin play lap steel, Doyle playing either a clean tone or his guitar through a Leslie and Snowy White playing a brilliant solo (which too differed every show).
“Though Gilmour may be the better performer and guitarist, Roger Waters is ten times better then anyone alive at writing songs. He is hands down the greatest lyracist and song writer in the world. He’s greater then Lennon, Plant, and dylan put together.” -Floydfan1
Hmm….greater lyricist than lennon, plant, and dylan? Thats pretty narrow minded. Many songwriters blow Roger Waters out of the water. His words fit perfectly for Gilmours style of guitar and music. Udoubtable he is legendary, but what is he with sub par musican? He is just another songwriter.
If you’re a guitarist or a musician you appreciate Gilmour because he created a whole new style or progressive rock blues. Today he is just another songwriter, but he has always been. But he always has the catchy blues psychdelic feel. It just seems Waters and Gilmour were dependent on each other for the musical abilities to really shine.
Bob Dylan on the other hand? He wasn’t depending on anyone else to help him do anything. That is why i say there is no contest. His music was his no one elses.
[And Dylan is still capable of renewing himself… as he has done many times. His latest albums are considered as some of his best. Water’s latest random compositions (downloads and filmscores) are not even a bleak reminder of how great he once was. Also, don’t forget that Gilmour has managed to take the music press by storm with his 2001/2002 shows… hailed as a new genre in rock. – Bjorn]
you say that rogers band sounds like a cover band.
do you have ears?
[Yes I have ears and my personal oppinion, after seeing Waters live 2 times, is that the band sounds like an uninspired Floyd cover…. on some songs. Roger should have toured with Amused to Death and played a couple of Floyd tunes as encores… Apart from him (of course) and Jon Carin, the rest of the band has no Floyd feeling what so ever. That’s my oppinion. That being said, I think Waters’ recent versions of Dogs and Sheep are awesome and he did a decent job with Dark Side when I saw him last year. – Bjorn]
I just arrived from the concert of Roger Waters.. no words.. no words.. amazing… truly..truly amazing…I’m with Waters in this issue… at least until Gilmour decides to come to LatinAmerica and I can compare both on stage.. but man, what I just saw, is the best concert I’ve ever seen.. and I’ve been in a lot of concerts..
[Glad you had a good time! – Bjorn]
Just noticed this entry and have to say I also tend to lean towards the Gilmour side of things than the Waters side of things. I mean all you people out there reading this, don’t think that we all hate Roger or something, I just tend to like Gilmour. As some people have observed, alot of Roger’s basslines and whatnot were written by Gilmour. However I do feel that they should be put together, they balance eachother out, and make great music. I also believe that Roger’s band sounding like a “cover band” (which they really are) and David’s not sounding like a cover band comes from the way Roger and David handle the shows and the way they do things. Tim Renwick, who has toured with both men, has said before that Roger is very controlling, trying to have complete control over everything, whereas David seems to just let the members do “their own thing” which results in a more natural feel. Anyway if any of you can understand what I just typed, I prefer David, but they both made eachother who they are.
I have to find another way to get bootlegs I can’t find any.
have you ever seen roger in the flesh?
not all the songs but all the pink floyd songs are great.
i’f seen the dvd of 2000.
and not only the music but the whole performance in great.
i think if anyone could bring the sound of pink back it’s roger with the other band members of roger in the flesh.
and doyl bramhall 2 is also on of the best guitarist of the world.
i admire that you admire pink floyd so much.
were on the same line theire, but roger gets my vote
[I’ve seen the DVD and I’ve seen Roger live in 2002 and last year. The show was OK and it was great fun to hear Dogs and Sheep performed live. Doyle is a very good guitarist… but Gilmour gets my vote. Cheers! – Bjorn]
I guess I’m a bit late in the running here. But something caught my eye that I thought was rather interesting, when Floydfan1 said; “so I guess if you like Gilmour, then you listen to the musical aspect of the songs”. Isn’t the point of listening to music to listen to the musical aspects of the songs, I mean sure Waters writes some great lyrics and the credits say that he writes some great music, but he could just as easily write some poetry and seem like a bit less of a pompous jerk than he does when he takes almost all credit of all Pink Floyd’s music away from the rest of the band who are the ones that deserve it. If you look at the credit for Comfortably Numb you see that it says that the music was written by both Waters and Gilmour even though we all know that it was written more than a year before “The Wall” came out. Now if you look at a song like Pigs, or Another Brick in the Wall, or Money, or any song that there is a guitar part on that Waters didn’t play himself. Can you say that Waters wrote every single guitar part and every keyboard part and every drum part that has ever graced a Pink Floyd song. Cause I find that incredibly difficult to believe and if Roger Waters can get a credit for something as simple as deciding how the opening of Comfortably numb should be then the rest of Floyd should get a credit for every contribution they have ever made to the bands music. And the fact that he takes credit for being Pink Floyd’s creative genius should be a crime. Every member of the band was a creative genius and you don’t see any member but Waters taking credit for it. David Gilmour takes credit only for being the Voice and Guitar of Floyd. And we all know that he was soooo much more than that. He was the soul, the dream inspiring melodicism, possibly the greatest guitarist that has ever graced this planet, and he was the lead singer. Sure you could say that without Roger Waters, David Gilmour wouldn’t have gotten anywhere, but it goes the other way too and without syd (rip) none of them would have gotten anywhere. And albums like Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were here, didn’t sell because of the lyrics, 90% of people that listen to music don’t give a crap about lyrics, Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here and every pink floyd song thats ever existed sold (or didnt sell) because of the music, and you notice that the lowest selling Pink Floyd album since Meddle was the one that Waters had the MOST control over because the music was nothing more than a way for the lyrics to get to people and they werent focused on. The worst songs that pink floyd did were the ones that Waters felt should just be used as lyrical conveyors such as the trial. And just because roger waters could write a lyric doesnt mean that he was a musician and anyone who listens to pink floyd knows that he was not a musician. The musicians were Gilmour, Wright, Barret, and Mason, Roger Waters just pissed them off, wrote words for them, and then at the end he took all the credit. (yeah I guess i have a bit of a Gilmour slanted bias..
[I couldn’t agree more… Of course Roger had the big conceptual ideas behind Dark Side, WYWH, Animals and Wall. He also wrote most of the initial musical ideas on those albums. BUT it was mainly David and Rick who turned the crude ideas into the gems we know today. I think Roger had a very “me me me” way of crediting songs when the truth is (maybe apart from the majoryty of Wall) that the songs should be credited Lyrics, -Waters and Music, -Pink Floyd…. Not even Great Gig should be only credited Rick, as the piece didn’t sound anything like the final piece when he wrote it. Who gets the creds is all very political and due to who gets the most money according to a contract. It’s like Lennon/McCartney… it became a trademark, not an actual cred. They wrote very few songs together. Anyway, it really pisses me off me Roger goes around promoting himself as the “creative genious”. If he really is that, he shouldn’t need to shout it out. It’s just childish… like a little 5 year old who desperately need the cred from his parents. Rogers is no doubt a creative genious, but he acts like a fool without dignity. After Amused to Death he should have quit making music and begun writing poetry instead. – Bjorn]
Peter Kline says:
I read your opening essay and basically agree with your views.
However I saw Roger Waters last night in Hong Kong and it was a stunning show – and I saw Pink Floyd many times in the old days. Of course I would have loved to have seen Gilmour up there too – but there was no way you could call the show inferior. Dark Side Of The Moon is a modern master piece and in 100 years people will be up there playing the Gimour guitar peices and singing the Waters lyrics in just the same way orchestras today play Mozart. And, as a matter of fact there is no dark side of the…..
[All in all, I think Roger did a faithful version of Dark Side. The effects and feeling was definitely there and I must say, Great Gig was perhaps the best since Claire sang on the album! But somehow, the band sounds like a cover band with Roger as speacial guest. The musicians seem to have no idea how the album really sounded like (apart from Jon Carin) and I do feel that Gilmour has managed to put together a better sounding band that is more capable of recreating the essence of Floyd. – Bjorn]
I agree that it’s rather silly to compare them. It’s about music, and not a competition about who is the best writer or musician. It’s all about what you like or not, and that’s a matter of taste.
As good as the classic (70s) material was, I think Roger had completely lost it with Final Cut, and I find most of his solo work even worse than that album, even if I can appreciate the occasional stuff. So the question is did Waters stop being a genius…or was it a case of Gilmour not getting enough credits for the classic material?….
Gilmour’s Floyd in the 80s and 90s might be tame in comparison with the classic era but it’s still better than Roger solo IMO.
I also think we should put things in perspective a bit…has ANY other band who made classic albums in the 70s kept up with their old standards and continued to make classics throughout the 80s and 90s?
I can’t think of any. the 80s was a very different era in music, and things never became the same again…
[I agree… It’s a matter of taste. That’s basically why I wrote the post. – Bjorn]
doyle bramhall II is just a chewing gum chewer that is nowhere near as talented as gilmour in any way and comparing them is insulting, it’s like comparing picasso with a copyist…
Now another comment: i don’t see why you only play the waters era pink Floyd, since you seem to prefer Gilmour, i think that songs like learning to fly, on the turning away, sorrow or the whole division bell album are worth and should be played as Pink Floyd so i find foolish not to do it. Now back to the point of the debate Gilmour vs Waters,
I don’t even understand what you are talking about there, on what basis do you want to compare them?
It’s foolish, it’s like comparing Gabriel to Collins, or Tony levin to roger waters or steve Howe to Gilmour.
One thing is sure Gilmour plays a lot better (even the base guitar) than Roger Waters and sings better but gilmour can’t make some voices that roger can and that without that sound some songs are forever lost (take comfortably numb, vera lynn, fletcher memorial home, nobody home) For me the only thing that we can see is the void left by Waters in Pink Floyd, and the void in Waters sound without pink floyd and not only gilmour but wright and mason too. So i insist, it’s foolish to even try to compare them, they are both so strong music personalities but so different, i can live with their separation but it’s so sad what a waste.
[Fair point and I do agree that it’s foolish to compare them because they are both vital parts of the Pink Floyd sound. Still, I was trying to compare Gilmour and Waters today. I wrote the post after seeing Waters on his recent tour last summer and I was shocked to see him fooling around on the stage and even miming to his own lyrics. That’s really a huge difference to what I witnessed when seeing David in Albert Hall in May. The band was on fire and seemed to enjoy themselves together… that was not the case with Waters where he really struggled to show himself as a solo performer. I’m talking about David’s sence of putting together a band consisting of people who get his ideas, the Floyd sound and do shine on their own. Waters will always bee the genious when it comes to the great ideas, both in terms of the music and stage show, but IMO he doesn’t even come close to Gilmour when it comes to the musical aspect. Sorry… About Doyle Bramhall… IMO he is the best guitarist Roger has worked with as a solo artist. He has a great tone, plays the solos very well and has a unique style of his own, heavily influenced by his mentor Steve Ray Vaughan. Kilminister is shame… – Bjorn]
…..forget Gilmore
Money & Comfortably Numb…
Roger Waters Live in the Flesh DVD
5.1 surround sound on my polk audio system…
the best I’ve ever heard, vocals & guitar & stage presence……..
doyle bramhall II rawks,
snowy white rawks,
andy fairweather low rawks-
you could even forget Roger…….
Karen ;o)
[Riiiiight…? – Bjorn]
kieran mullarkey says:
If you actually read any of these comments please read this one. PLEASE. haha. Alrite, I love pink floyd and have heard all of their albums, even the ones from the Syd Barett days and the newer ones where Gilmour led the band. I have seen Roger Waters play, and annually see a famous Pink Floyd cover band called The Machine. Excuse me cause I’m a little tired but my point is that I know Pink Floyd really well. I just feel that Gilmour is and always was a better guitarist than Waters, but Waters is and always will be a better musician. Waters wrote The Wall, Animals, and The Final Cut. He did however let the band help build off of his work once it was written. He also wrote a majority of Dark Side and Wish You Were Here. You do bring up a good arguement on how David Gilmour has helped mold Roger Waters into a better musician, but there were many times when Waters lefts gaps in some of his songs intentionally for Gilmour to build off of but, Waters always laid down the foundation. I truly hope you read this post because I have an offer for you Bjorn Riis. I somehow got a hold of a copy of the rough draft version of The Wall. It is the version of The Wall which Roger Waters wrote entirely by himself which he gave to producers and the rest of Pink Floyd. This is the foundation of The Wall. Let me remind you that this is the first piece of The Wall and is entirely by Waters and no one else. This is the version before Gilmour or producers got their hands on it. I am willing to send you a copy of it to convince you of how much more superior Water’s musicianship is than Gilmours. If you hear it you might be surprised how little Gilmour, producers, or the rest of the band interferred with it.
The origional version of comfortably numb actually has better lyrics! Waters does the guitar, bass, drums, and vocals for it. I will admit that the origional guitar solo is not as good as Gilmour’s famous one. Still the song defines the solo, the solo does not define the song. It is a piece of brilliance. Most of the songs actually go unchanged before being rerecorded for the final cut of the album. I am willing to send you a copy of this cd because I hope that it convinces you that Waters is a far more talented musician than Gilmour. Be mindful that the origional draft of the wall sounds a bit raw and harsh because Waters knew that he would have a chance to rerecord it. There clearly would be no Wall without Roger Waters. There would also be no Animals, or Final Cut without Waters. He also wrote more of Wish you were here and darkside than gilmour. Interestingly enough he spotted Gilmour’s talent when he wanted a replacement for Barrett. Enough said I hope that you respond and that this cd convinces you. If not, no offense taken, we still love Pink Floyd!
[Hi! I agree that Waters wrote a lot of the music and that he left in space for Gilmour (and Wright) to fill. But, I must say that I don’t see Waters as a better musician than Gilmour. Quite the oposite… Waters had the ideas and new how to pitch them to the band and to an audience, but Gilmour was the musician. Gilmour often took Waters’ crude ideas and made them into the songs we now know… not always, but often. David played bass on most songs on The Wall too. I think what made them so unique, if you look beside all the disagreements, was that they made eachother shine. Waters needed David to play guitar and sing on his songs and David needed Waters to write good songs for his playing.
Thanks for the offer, but I think I have that demo already. I’ve listened to it a lot and, at least the demo I have, is with a full band. It’s very crude and there are some stuff on it that sounds very different to the final album. As far as I know, Waters doesn’t play any guitar or drums on the demo. In fact, he has stated many times that his original demo that he showed to the band, was almost purely his voice and accoustic guitar with some soundeffects. And, Comfortably Numb was written by David for his first solo album in 78… I have the original demo. If you do have a different demo than I describe, then please send it. I’d appreciate that! – Bjorn]
Eulogy says:
Well, it’s you’re prerogative to bash Roger, but I think Roger doesn’t give rats ass what people think and that’s really all there is to it. Perhaps he’s really not a singer in a classical sense nor great bass player, but he’s really good musician, he’s got a vision. I really admire his attitude, love his nihilistic lyrics and vocals too when he’s speakin’ or screaming like ass on fire. Some of his bass lines are really clever although really elementary. David’s solo work is for the most part really kinda boring. Love his playing, tone and singing and listen to his work for old times sake, but I really think Roger has made better songs and music. On A Island is an exception, it’s really good song. Nobody really knows besides the guys themselves how did what in PF. I think the sum is greater than it’s parts.
And I wonder to who are you referring this “van halen” wanking? CN end solos are really boring but Snowy, Andy Fairweather Low and especially DBII does a great job delicering PF music. As a main solo player DBII does things his own way and doesn’t try to copy 100% Gilmour. Sign of a great and talented musician.
Sorry for the rant! Peace, happiness and merry Cristmass!
[Oh… where should I start???? Seriously, I agree with you on most points and so I’ve written in the article too. I love Waters for the stuff his written, sung and played. No question. However, – I definitely think you can who did what in the studio. Both David and Rick has a very distinct way of creating music and I could put my finger of a thousand things Waters has taken credit for. He had the idea… often that was it. Still who can write good music without good ideas? As you point out, – the sum is definitely greater that it’s parts. I must admit that I strongly disagree with you on Snowy’s and Low’s way of playing the Floyd tunes. It’s not right… sorry. DBII does a pretty good job and I love his Time and Dogs solos, but the other two… I don’t wan to go there… Have a Merry Christmas! – Bjorn]
Interesting discussion.
Now a little mind game: Imagine a sane Barrett, would he eventually have fallen out with Waters anyway? I think so, because Waters had huge ambitions and I don´t think Syd was that kind of person. Now imagine he got together with his teenage friend Gilmour and started a new band. Two sweet, sensual guys. And then add Rick Wright.
A different kind of music but terriffic no dout.
It´s never only one person that makes a band, teamwork is always the best way to create great results. David, Rick and Nick have always stated this as a fact but Roger thinks he´s the salt of the earth. Sad.
This is what I have against him.
[I agree. A band isn’t driven only by one person… not even Coldplay or U2. Although Roger has stated many times that he misses David’s voice and guitar, he often seem to forget that David actually wrote much of the music… not to forget that he also made some of Roger’s crude ideas into gold. It’s also sad that Roger seem to have totally forgotten Nick and Rick (although Nick has now joined him on stage, but that’s more due to the fact that they were once close friends). I have always thought that Rick is teh most underestimated of the four… eh five. It’s surpising that a man who is so devoted to world issues as Waters, seems to have a lot of demons in his own life and past. He doesn’t seem to be willing to admit that Floyd wans’t his solo project… it was a band. What would Beatles have sounded like if George and Ringo didn’t put their trademark sound on Lennon/McCartney creations? – Bjorn]
i think it takes the whole floyd to make the best stuff!
gilmour leads and great solos.
waters great lyrics and ideas
wright great backing on keyboards
mason great sound effects and drum technique
[Couldn’t agree more! That’s why solo projects rarely work as good as the whole band. – Bjorn]
No harm done fellow Floydian. Cheers
Oh sorry Cody..I guess I should have said Floyd Material of DSOTM and WALL.. This post was about Gilmour Vs. Waters.. didn’t even think of Syd days.. nor listen to them.. sorry for my mis-guided keyboard… I thought also as you stated.. :You would know what I mean..;) :
I like how Michael said on Nov 7th “I’m a fan of the original Floyd” and in the same sentence, he brought in DSOTM and The Wall…What’s…uh the deal man? That’s not original Floyd. Original Floyd was over when Syd left. Not that the Floyd after was unoriginal but you know what I mean…well, I know Bjorn does…I don’t know about the rest of you…Cheers everyone.
Hi Bjorn. I can see that your page is receiving much attention from latin people. I can try a translation of what Victor wrote:
“Hi. To me it seems like Waters sounds bad and I think that he picks bad musicians with the only purpose of being noticed as a best player. Pink Floyd, since Waters’s departure changed and a lot, but remains excelent. The soul of the Rock is the guitar, Waters is quit good writting but lyrics ain’t all, so I hope Gilmour make up his mind and revive Pink Floyd”
In my opinion: I don’t think at all that the musicians that play with Waters in IN THE FLESH DVD were bad. They are some of the best professional musicians: Andy Fairweatherlow, Doyle Braham II, I don’t recall right now the names of the drummer, 2nd guitar and the keyboard’s player but HEY VIctor: This last guy played with Gimlour since “Delicate sound of thunder”!!!! and definitevly the bass’s parts are much much better with Andy Fairweatherlow or waters than with Guy Pratt (sorry.. to me Guy Pratt’s sound in PULSE and in Delicate is too compressed too over-procesed too far away from what it should be).
[Thanks Hugo. By all means, the musicians that Waters choose are not bad. As you say, they are some of the most talentend in the industry. But, that’s part of the problem as I see it. They’re just playing too good and it sounds sterile. Pink Floyd them selves were never top of the line musicians and I think that is what made their music so special. They had a certain feeling and a tone that Waters’ band has a hard time re-creating. Floyd did it to some degree in the 80’s and 90’s, but that was partly because they were three from the original lineup. Still, it wasn’t superb. However, I think David has done a hell of a job to recreate the 70’s sound on his latest tour and Guy Pratt has finally realised that Waters’ way of playing actually contributed a lot to the Floyd sound (which he admits now). As a sidenote, I think that Doyle Braham II is an outsanding guitarist and nailed some of the solos very well on the In the Flesh tour. – Bjorn]
victor de gabriel says:
hola a mi me parece que waters suena muy mal y que el se rodea de malos musicos para resaltar, pink floyd a partir de la salida de waters cambio y mucho pero siguio siendo exelente. EL ALMA DEL ROCK ES LA GUITARRA asi que waters es muy bueno escribiendo pero las letras no son todo espero que gilmour se decida a revivir a pink floyd .
[Hi Victor! Could you please write in English? – Bjorn]
Demetris Michaelides says:
I respect both of them but Gilmour is the soul of Pink Floyd. He is the one who touches people’s souls with his guitar and voice. I have seen Waters in the States and he was good really good. I travelled from Cyprus to London for the live 8 concert just to see Pink Floyd for 25 minutes. Those 25 minutes are the best 25 minutes i have evered experienced. It was really great to see them together. Dave though is just amazing! David Gilmour is the best musician ever!!! Thanks!
[I totally agree! I too got the chance to see them in London last year and it was an “out of body” experience. I still can’t believe I was there when I watch the DVD! Cheers! – Bjorn]
sir david gilmour and mr roger waters are like night and day in the recent issue of guitar legends ,david mentions he can not write lyrics like roger does or did ,how ever david wrote fantastic music, past and present ,i have attended (radio kaos tour &2002) solo perfomances of roger waters, and the pink floyd during the delicate sound of thunder tour and the 1994 tour both here the U.S.A, and the recent david gilmour concert in los angeles, california, kodak theater,this year.
i have seen a dvd of the rio concert of roger waters and it is very sad to see roger lip sync and his voice is very bad and it came to my attention if he did not lip sync at that 2002 show , it was a great show i enjoyed quite much i my add the radio kaos tour was an experience the venue was almost empty (san diego sports arena) but he stated in later interview, that particular show was very positive ,
i was amazing to see david(kodak theatre ) performance of the floyd songs and specially echoes, he has a great voice and play a hell of a guitar , i must say the two are great true legends roger waters was the driving force for most of the golden era of pink floyd ,david fantatisc riffs ,solos, vocals and nick and richard is what made pink floyd what it is now, with out leaving out syd barret off course , i personally like the music side of the artist i do not follow the personal issues
everybody has problems i must say, on the present david has done better than roger musically speaking but when they got together for that live 8 show it brought the best of them for the fans after all thats what we are ………….
Wow… mm Bjorn I must say that I disagree with your poin of view. I’ve just checked the PULSE dvd and compared with the In the flesh DVD of Roger Waters’s tour.
mmm.. how to say this? mmm.. man.. the only thing better in PULSE is David Gilmour.. everything else is better in Roger Water’s show. The correct feeling and tempo of the songs, the correct figures in the bass (guy pratt just deliverately get away of Waters style of playing)..
So, Altough David Gilmour is my guitar hero, and I agree with you in the fact that he is the musical expert behind Floyd’s music, I must say that Roger Waters is the true soul behind Pink Floyd and that shows in scene..
[I think PULSE is great, but far from the best stuff Floyd has done. I agree with you on Pratt… funny thing is that he admits now that he played very bad (see latest Q&A on David’s site). Still, the In The Flesh DVD from Waters sounds more like a coverband with Waters on vocals. Sorry, but without Gilmour, Mason and Wright it’s not sounding like Floyd at all. At least David had Wright on the tour. – Bjorn]
HA i agree completly!!
This argument is pointless. Gilmour without Waters or Waters without Glimour is not Pink Floyd period. I am a great fan of the original Floyd DSOTM and WALL which sounds different than anything either has put out since. There was youth, want and to the most part willingness in their sound and attitude while making both.. nothing compares to them together in their early years…Listen to some live stuff from then.. Glimour’s sound has changed alot and is much more polished (I want more flanger/phaser and rakes ) now and to me has lost something although he is still amazing and in my top ten best guitar players of all time. Waters, Well he is a song writer not a player… nothing he has written grabs me like the early songs, and yes he put alot into his Bass then. I recently watched the Waters “in the Flesh” dvd and enjoyed what Bramhall and Snowy White did with gilmours Comfortably Numb parts but it was not Pink Floyd. If I had to choose one… I would leave it to Mason and Wright to pick…. but I think they already did that.. Your Pink Floyd Experience is as close as they get themselves sometimes. But together, going back to their old sound, would be unbeatable.
When will they realize they need each other and reunite? Gilmour is too sweet, and Waters is too sour, they need each other to balance each other out. It is so obvious to everyone, but their egos won’t allow it. It is sad.
Bjorn your site rocks! even if you hated Dark Side i’d still come here…hell, I visit this site more than I do David’s.
[Thanks a lot! That’s quite a compliment! And… Dark Side is definitely one of my favourites, don’t worry, he he! – Bjorn]
zBladez says:
What I don’t quite understand is WHY it matters. They were both the creative elements and ingredients that made Pink Floyd what it was. Apart, they are just not up to their standards, but still better than most musicians. Call it symbiosis if you will.
[Of course it doesn’t matter, but it’s fun to write something like this and hear what you people have to say. Of course I mean what I wrote, but I’m expressing my taste if you like, as we all are, and I’m extremely aware of the fact that no-one is greater than the other. Floyd wouldn’t have been much without one of them (including Rick and Nick). That’s like Beatles without one of the Fab Four. It wouldn’t have sounded the same, no matter how much one hates George, John, Paul or Ringo. – Bjorn]
I respect everyones ideas here on who they believe is the better musician. There are some things that Roger did that I feel are complete shit. However…there are some things that Gilmour did that I not only feel, but know, are complete shit. *Cough* About Face *Cough*. I mean…is that album a soundtrack for Police Academy or Miami Vice the tv show? It all comes down to Syd..then bam! he’s gone…now we have Roger…he did some good stuff yada yada…Then he said hell with it and took complete control of the band….and what did he leave us with? Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall and The Final Cut. But hey…those albums must suck cause Waters is untalented right? Wrong. I’m getting off on a tangent here…I like both musicians equally. Both are equal in their own right. Gilmour as a musician and Waters as a lyricist. Ever listen to Momentary? that’s the sound of a Pink Floyd that’s lost…hell, rub that album hard enough and it’ll say “David Gilmour solo album” instead of Pink Floyd. I suppose the same is trun in the Roger sense when it comes to the Final Cut…but hell, at least that was tasteful. I’d chose that over Momentary any day…hell i’d chose Pros and Cons over Momentary any day. You will NEVER hear me knock The Division Bell though, that album is beautiful. All i’m tryin to say here is that both are equally good in their own right. Can Roger play the 2nd solo to Comfortably Numb? No. Would Gilmour have done the awesome tape loop for money? No. Even Gilmour admited on a documentary that Roger did better than him on the demo for On The Run using the VCS3. All i’m saying is…both are awesome and we, as well as the rest of the world, were truly blessed to have these two gents get together for a spell and write and play some tunes…so stop bitchin’ and start listenin…cause really…that’s all you can do. And Bjorn…still respect you man…only thing on this site I don’t respect is that link that takes me to where I can buy a Gilmour strap…I was so excited when I saw that…then I saw the price and wanted to kill myself….cheers gents.
[Hm… I never thought that this topic would stir up so many different feelings… Still, it’s great to hear what you have to say. One thing you forgot tho… what about Radio Kaos. There are some great songs, but let’s be honest. Waters lost him self to the Miami Vice era too (and yes, About Face is awful). Hope you don’t dislike my site too much… I didn’t set the price for the Gilmour strap, ha ha! Cheers! – Bjorn]
Stephen Pearson says:
wow – fantastically said!!!
gilmour is so the best!
But just remember,David Gilmour wouldnt be as big as he is today without the original floyd(syd,ROGER….)
I cant Choose between them,they both have their good and bad points.
[You’re right about that, but as goes for Roger… He wouldn’t have been much without Syd and David. – Bjorn]
Roger Waters is alcohol – sloppy and overrated…
David Gilmour is marijuana – inspiring and intergalactic!
[He he! Hear hear! – Bjorn]
Jerri says:
hehe I couldnt stand to read on about this war! I believe that there arent better than eachother. To me in my books, I think that Gilmours guitar sound and vocals are just as Spectacular as Waters Lyrics. either way floyd wouldnt of started with out the Mastermind of Syd Barrett. Why has he been left out of this war? Syd Barrett Started the band, and had brought so many early pink floyd classics such as “See Emily Play”, “Lucifer Sam” or “Arnold Layne”, and I Believe that Gilmour or Waters wouldnt have gotten where they are today without the Genious Syd Barrett. Gilmour, in my eyes is a fabulous musician, and Waters is a Spectacular Lyricist, But to me Syd Barrett will always be the creative mastermind of Pink Floyd. Which anyhow brings me back to my point, I think this war over who is better than who is ridiculous! For me I get the same buzz from listening to David Gilmours Amazing Guitar works, as I do for Listening to Roger’s Meaningful lyrics. They are equal in my books, and I think that “On an Island” was just as amazing as “the Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking”. I just appreciate the fact that everyone from the band [including Nick Mason and Rick Wright] were there at that time to have been able to collaborate together to make those amazing albums over the years, because they all helped contribute to them.and I wouldnt have been able to hear such classics Albums such as “UmmaGumma” or “Animals”. So for me it wouldnt have been as great without any of the band members, in my opinion…
R.I.P. Syd (Roger) Keith Barrett:(
[The “war” was started sometime in the mid 80’s when the media created two monsters out of Gilmour and Waters. I think even they got frustrated over the situation. Syd was never a part of this and I think that most fans see him as the unique man he was and not like a rivalist like the two other main Floyds…. because, let’s face it, – both Waters and Gilmour like to be in charge. Still I agree with you 100%… Floyd wouldn’t have been what it became, or is, without both Gilmour and Waters…. or Syd, Nick and Rick. – Bjorn]
Floydfan1 says:
Alright, Pavan, you DO want to see Waters in concert. I just saw him on the 24th, and it was AMAZING! All of the music, i mean every song, is just absolutely magnificent! I really give Dave Kilminster and Snowy White credit. They handled Gilmour’s tunes very well. (But its still not Gilmour) I say it was 80% Floyd. Each song had the lead guitar above all the other sounds, and it rocked! I mean, there was a deep bass, and a lot of sound effects, but the guitar was just awsome. If anyone says that Waters can’t jam, then they haven’t seen him in concert. And if you have, and you still say that, then your one poor soul. Who needs Gilmour when Waters is just so dang good?
[OK… Everyone is entiteled to their own oppinion, dudes. Don’t get me started about Kilminister. – Bjorn]
Yeah, actually i want to go see him at Nissan Pavlilion, but no one wants to take me. (I can’t drive due to age). I have a decent bootleg, and i will agree, i wasn’t impressed. I agree with you Bjorn on this one. Now if gilmour played here, then i would definetly go…
Why can’t Pink Floyd just tour together. This whole Waters, Gilmour crap annoys the hell out of me…
Oh, and Roger for some odd reson, hasnt pu blished any books (of my knoledge) but he does write poems. I havent been able to come across any, but i do know he writes them. And along with all of that, i know he does a heck of a lot reading himself. So maybe one day he’ll publish a book. (But i wouldnt see GIlmour doing anything like that.)
[He hasn’t published anything, but maybe when he retires from rock n roll we’ll see some poems or short stories…. I wouldn’t compare Waters and Gilmour on this matter. Waters is a poet, writer and a lyricist while Gilmour is a musician.- Bjorn]
Okay, okay. I admit Roger doesnt actually “sing” his songs. But he does use the voices of the three back-up vocalists in harmony with his own voice to create a unique sound. (yet another one of his talents, creating a unique sound.) Amused to death, the song, is a good example of the softly spoken lyrics with a woman’s vocals to back it up. its quit relaxing. Im not argueing this with anyone, its just moy opinion. But if yopu decide im wrong, lol, then i guess my next comment will be pretty heavy…
[He he… write as heavy as you want, but remember that I am the moderator :-) Waters has a unique way of singing and I have always liked it when he whispers or talks the lyrics and dub that with screaming the lyrics in the background. There’s lots of it on both Final Cut and Amused to Death. But it surprised me that a man who has always been so devoted to every detail can go on tour using a backtrack for 50% of his vocals. It was sad seeing him miming to his own words this summer… I will always love his work, but I think it’s time to put the bass on the shelf. – Bjorn]
this is an argument with no end in sight :))
1. for great ideas, lyrics and music: listen to PF albums with RW era (excl Final Cut)
2. for great music with not so great ideas and lyrics: listen to Gilmour and RW less PF albums
3. for great ideas and lyrics but no music with talking and shouting singing listen to RW albums.
Though Gilmour may be the better performer and guitarist, Roger Waters is ten times better then anyone alive at writing songs. He is hands down the greatest lyracist and song writer in the world. He’s greater then Lennon, Plant, and dylan put together. His work is world wide, both with and without Floyd. His writing just touches the hearts of everyone who listens, and his albums are perfectly rounded, with a little bit of everything in them. Anyone who says Gilmour is better than Waters is just in a “Gilmour mood.” At times i enjoy Gilmour way better than Waters. And at other times i feel that Waters is the musical genuise in the band. (which may not be stretching the truth.) So i believe it all depends on what mood you’re in, but Waters and Gilmour are both great artists, so regardless who you like better, you still have a great taste in music…
[I think we agree… No doubt that Water’s write better lyrics or have better ideas than Gilmour. Still, in my mind, Gilmour has a better undestanding of how to put those ideas to life. That’s what made the 70’s Floyd so special. – Bjorn/ this post has been moved from “BK Tube Driver Review”.]
try Dylan sometime.
Waters doesn’t hold a candle
sorry i didnt clarify this. the critic i previously wrote was directed towards the person who said “Music Waters did after PF is not listanable.” That comment upset me in a few ways. Amused to Death is genuis. no doubt about it. so I guess if you like Gilmour, then you listen to the musical aspect of the songs. More interseted about enjoying the songs and not really goping in depth with them. depending onmy mood, i guess i choose either or. but don’t just drop Waters like anold book. Give him life and let him openyour eyes to something wonderful. It truely is a real treat, and i could only hope more people could see it like some of us do…
[I think I’m more into the music, as you point out. I appreciate good lyrics, and especially Waters’, but for some reason I have never had the urge to dig deep into the matter… Still, I wonder why Waters hasn’t published a book. He could have written wonderful poems or even interesting novels. – Bjorn]
WOW! Please tell me you didnt just say Amused to Death is a bad album, b/c i choose that album over Wish You Were Here any day!!!! (though the Wall is my fav, with Dark Side in a close second.) I do believe Gilmour’s music with Roger’s ideas make the Pink floyd what it is, but even without Floyd, Waters has been largely succesful with his writings. (I only wish he got together with Lennon, God Bless His Soul….) Gilmour’s solo work isnt great at all. Even the recent “On An Island” isnt very functional. It’s an album that I listen to, but put to the side when i’m done. with Amused to Death, I HAVE to listen to it again, over and over. If you’re saying that his work is disdanful and tasteless, maybe you’re just into the “music” part of the Floyd, not the deeper meaning. “The Final Cut” is a wonderful album by itself, and i do think it’s better than any Gilmour album. Period! But don’t get me wrong, I enjoy Gilmour a lot, and his floyd work is untouchable. Just tryto give Water’s a second chance. Look at the deeper meaning of his music, and then write back. I promise you’ll see a difference once time has passed and you listen to it again. (or maybe for the first time.)
[Are you asking me? I don’t think I said that Amused was a bad album. Not at all… In fact, Amused is, and has always been, on my top 10 list. No doubt. – Bjorn]
thedarksideofthecat says:
While ATD is a good album, his first album lost A LOT of money. His work with PF is legendary, but as a solo musician he isn’t that good (almost all of Water’s versions of Comfortably Numb are crap), but I love all of his lyrics, but its just as a live performer and solo artist he’s not as strong as gilmour
Clive Weiner says:
dudes wake up smell the coffee, good your brain is lighting up// roger waters is not to be compared to david gilmour// gilmour maybe gets in the top 50 bands or lead guitar genius crap/// roger waters is the NUMBER ONE SOLO ARTIST OF ALL TIME// AS BANDS GO U2 IS ONE, THE ROLLING STONES 2, ROGER WATERS 3// DAVE KILMINSTER MAKES DAVID GILMOUR LOOK ordinary// doyle cranks that fender strat it must make mr gilmour realize he might have won the FIGHT vs ROGER but roger WON THE WAR// HE WROTE COMPOSED ALL LYRICS FOR DARK SIDE OF THE MOON, ADD pigs in the wings , the machine, heart of the sun, etc etc etc// roger only plays songs he wrote and composed// i was at PINK FLOYD 1994 LA, without roger the hard ROCK was missing// as for andrew loyd webber and the piano lid breaks his fucking fingers// roger changes his shows, in the flesh tour EVOLVED WITH EACH SHOW// RIFFS WOULD CHANGE, roger listens to every concert after it’s finished// to improve each and every song// andrew loyd plays exactly the same show evry night for years and years and years // roger DARK SIDE OF THE MOON LIVE with dave kilminster jon carin andy fairweather low snowy white is OUTSTANDING// DOGS WITH BADASS DOYLE IS CLASSICAL HARD ROCK MUSIC AT ITS BEST // if i dont see have a good morning good evening and goodnight\]
// regards clive
I must agree with Bjorn on this Waters vs Gilmour issue. Waters is the “ideas” man and Gilmour is the musician. Music Waters did after PF is not listanable. One thing I differ from Bjorn is I dont think Final Cut is a good record. Nowhere near PF standarts. Waters writes theatrical music. It was Gilmour putting it into this great multi-dimantional rock format that we all love and worship.
I also find Waters a bit arrogant. Who else would rate himself among the best 5 song writers of the World? Who else would trash Andrew Loyd Webber’s music? The guy is a megaloman! I am sure he tried to belittle the rest of the PF members towards the end. And still may do. I think Gilmour and the rest have a just reason not wanting to work with him ever again.
Hugh Jones says:
“Waters writes theatrical music”. That’s very interesting. Maybe that’s why he hates Andrew Lloyd Webber so much, because he sees something of himself in him ;-)
roger maybe arrogant to you, have you watched his interview with HOWARD STERN?? DOES ROGER SOUND ARROGANT? FACT , roger is humble, pink floyd totally stabbed him in the back add EMI// roger was the only MUSICIAN NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY PINK FLOYD SONGS EXCEPT the wall// go figure 24 songs ROGER and the band played IN THE FLESH live and DARK SIDE OF THE MOON live// doyle bramhall DOGS etc and dave kilminster dark side// i was at pink floyd concert 1994, he ripped off all rogers songs knowing mr waters was banned by david gilmour from playing any of themmm// go figure each band member had one vote so they always voted 3 to 1 that roger can’t play pink floyd tunes that roger composed and wrote all the LYRICS /// roger PLAYED THE WALL LIVE in 1980// the sound all comes from roger// you tube 1980 the wall live ROGER SINGS another brick in the wall// SNOWY WHITE IS WAY BETTER ON GUITAR THAN DAVID EVEN BACK THEN.. snowy white was not even mentioned back when
man i am seriously pissed.what u have been saying about Waters is so untrue. i mean i like Gilmour alot and i respect him and completely admire him and he is in my opinion one of the most greatest guitarists ever but i must say that Roger is still pretty good.Hell he was the vocalist for pink floyd so that does mean something.and besides i think the final cut is one of my favourite floyd albums and i adore Roger for making that record.But you cant judje someone from a bootleg.I mean I went to see Roger at Hyde Park in London and it was amazing.I liked the whole show and thier new guitarist Dave Kilminster was also amazing i mean after seeing that show people were like “who needs Pink Floyd” when youve got Waters.So i suggest that you dont judge him without seeing his show live and then youll see why we love him.
[Well, I’ve seen Waters twice… Maybe I didn’t make that clear enough in the article, – in 2002 and this summer and I have to admit that I’m not impressed. But that’s just my personal oppinion and I respect your’s. Hope you like my site nevertheless. – Bjorn]
who sais david gilmour is so great??? doyle bramhall, snowy white, dave kilminster, eric dclapton, john male, trevor rabin etc etc i could name another 20 lead guitarists that make dave not the best// listen on you tube to roger, dave kilminster, snowy white, andy fairweather low, jon carin do COMFORTABLY NUMB// ROGER ALWAYS USES 2 LEAD GUITARS, the sound roger pounds out with total clarity, beethoven is impressed.. you tube roger waters comfortably numb with dave kilminster and always SNOWY WHITE, THEN WATCH “DOGS’ with badass doyle bramhall. ON LEAD GUITAR // MR GILMOUR WON THE FIGHT vs roger , roger won the WAR, listen to the music, then comment folkjs
your illiterate comment made it impossible to make out the message you were trying to output…
what do you mean illiterate ?
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WP – S4E11 – The Way of the Gun
by Barb Rankin | Mar 21, 2017 | Featured, Podcast, Sleepy Hollow, Witness Prophecies | 0 comments
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Hello, SleepyHeads! This week on Witness Prophecies, we discuss Sleepy Hollow Season 4 Episode 11, entitled The Way of the Gun, which originally aired on March 17, 2017. Ichabod Crane becomes the Horseman of War in a stunning twist.
Diana Thomas and Ichabod Crane watch Molly perform in her school play, which depicts George Washington at Valley Forge. Interestingly, the Sleepy Hollow writers used portions of an actual letter of George Washington that he used to rally the troops. Crane was delighted to see the factual representation displayed, but felt the young “troops” that portrayed this historical event didn’t march with vigor, as he knew he would have done. After all, we know he was in almost all the historical moments of the Revolutionary War, except for sea battles, as Diana exasperatedly remarked! Ah the humor of it all! It was during these scenes that we got our first hint about the mysterious young woman who walked in the back of the room – one of many hints that the writers cleverly set before us.
After the play, Team Witness assembles at the Vault, where Alex Norwood has hacked into Malcolm Dreyfuss’s computer, to spy on him and his henchman, Jobe. They believe that Dreyfuss plans to summon the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to change the world, not to end it. They learn that the symbol Dreyfuss is using was originated by a sect that split from the Masonic Order, known as the Arma Mutata, which sought to raise the Four Horsemen by bonding them to human hosts, using supernatural artifacts. They learn that the totem used to summon the Horseman of War is named Turricula Ignis, Weapon of Fire, and that it was hidden in America during the Revolutionary War. Suddenly, an alarm sounds and Jenny Mills chases a mysterious woman who has stolen one of their books, and is in the tunnels. Jenny surprisingly loses the fight, and the woman escapes.
Jake Wells identifies the book and its contents, and Crane realizes that the totem may be hidden at the old site of Benjamin Banneker’s (played by Edwin Hodge) home, which burned to the ground. The writers threw in a shout out to M. Raven Metzner’s sister, brother-in-law, and nieces, as well as their family owned farm, the Raven and Boar, during the episode. The former Banneker barn had become a communal table eatery with the name of Kestrel and Free, his nieces! Unfortunately, there was a 6 week wait time for reservations, which annoyed our dear Crane! Crane and Diana went to the site hoping to recover the Turricula Ignis gun, but the mysterious young woman is there and she already has the box. Jobe arrives, and she uses a crystal to dispatch him, knocking her unconscious. Crane and Diana take her to a DHS safehouse, and interrogate her, learning that one shot from the gun will raise the Horseman of War. She says her name is Lara (played by Seychelle Gabriel), that she knows Dreyfuss, tricks them and escapes with the weapon.
Meanwhile, Jenny Mills tells her old friend, Donnie Lu (played by Lawrence Kao), that she will take the artifact job, but she is clearly torn. Jenny, Jake and Alex discover where Dreyfuss lives, and stake our his home, but Jake and Alex are captured by Jobe. Jobe plays mind games with Jake to force him to reveal what Team Witness knows about the totem. Jenny rescues the pair from the henchman who is guarding them, just before Alex reveals her true feelings to Jake. They realize that Dreyfuss intends to kill the President.
Diana placed a tracking device on Lara, and they find her preparing to destroy the gun. Jobe and Dreyfuss suddenly appear, and confiscate the totem. Lara reveals she is actually from the future, and a future Crane helped her time travel back – she is Molly! Diana shoots Dreyfuss but they then see he is immortal and realize the Philosopher’s Stone ceremony worked! Dreyfuss reveals that Diana is meant to become his Horseman of War! Molly pleads for her mother’s life. Dreyfuss shoots. Crane jumps in front of Diana and takes the bullet. He drops to the ground. His eyes glow like fire. “I am become War!”
This sets up a most interesting quandary – how do we resolve this storyline with only two episodes remaining in this season? Are we left with a cliffhanger, in which Crane remains the Horseman of War and the team will spend next season trying to save him or will they be successful before the season ends? It was a brilliant move to bring a time traveling older Molly (aka Lara) back from the future to fight side by side with Ichabod and the rest of Team Witness, as we have pointed out that it would be impossible to have young Molly fighting the forces of evil with Crane. It will also force Jenny to remain and help #SaveCrane, and the rest of the team will need to assert their leadership skills and intelligence to stop Dreyfuss and Jobe. We have much to look forward to!
Kudos to writer Bryan Q. Miller and director Russell Lee Fine for leaving all the SleepyHeads in shock with jaws agape. This is a Sleepy Hollow episode that will be discussed for years to come!
History Lesson of the Week – Bits and Pieces
There really wasn’t any history this week that we haven’t already covered, and let’s face it – Crane becoming the Horseman of War IS the news!
However, Molly Thomas’s play was about Valley Forge, and the hardships that General George Washington and his troops faced, from December, 1777 through June, 1778. We discussed that episode in history, and the women who supported the troops in Witness Prophecies Episode 41, which was The People v. Ichabod Crane, should you wish to refresh your memory about that time in history.
During this episode, Ichabod Crane and Benjamin Banneker watched as Banneker’s home and barn burned to the ground, destroying all his life’s work. We had a history lesson about Benjamin Banneker in Episode 40, Heads of State. You may recall this information from that podcast:
“On Tuesday, October 11, at the family burial ground a few yards from this house, Benjamin Banneker was laid to rest. During the services, mourners were startled to see his house had caught on fire, quickly burning down. Nearly everything was destroyed, including his personal effects, furniture and wooden clock. The cause of the fire was never determined.”
So – our twistory from this week was that Banneker saw his home and barn burn – which was not possible because he was dead when that occurred. But it made an interesting addition to this week’s story!
SleepyHeads! How will Team Witness save Ichabod Crane? Tune in next week to find out!
March 24, 2017 – Season 4 Episode 12 – “Tomorrow”
And SleepyHeads – don’t forget about the book, Sleepy Hollow – Creating Heroes, Demons & Monsters, by Tara Bennett and Paul Terry. You can order it on Amazon, by using the Golden Spiral Media link.
SleepyHeads! Look into your crystal balls and let us know your future “prophecies” of events that may occur by sending us your feedback! Our deadline is 7PM Eastern, on Saturday. You can use our Feedback page to type an email, record a voicemail, or upload an audio file, or call 304-837-2278. We’d love to hear from you! And while you’re at it, why not take a few minutes to leave a rating and review in iTunes?
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Messerschmitt Me 263 Aircraft Information
Messerschmitt Me 263
Picture - Model of Me 263
Role: Fighter-Interceptor
Manufacturer: Messerschmitt/Junkers
Designed by: Alexander Lippisch
First flight: August 1944 (Unpowered)
Primary user: Luftwaffe
Number built: 1
Developed from: Messerschmitt Me 163
The Messerschmitt Me 263 was a rocket-powered fighter aircraft developed from the Me 163 Komet towards the end of World War II. Three prototypes were built but never flown under their own power as the rapidly deteriorating military situation in Germany prevented the completion of the test program.
The Me 163B had two main shortcomings. One was a limited flight endurance; the second was the lack of a retractable landing gear, because it took off on a jettisonable two-wheel "dolly" that functioned as the main wheels of a conventional landing gear arrangement. The latter meant that the aircraft had to land on a retractable skid. Both shortcomings prevented it from becoming an efficient fighter aircraft.
The Me 163C was an improved design with increased fuel tankage but still lacked retractable landing gear.
The project was then handed over to Heinrich Hertel of the Junkers company. This resulted in the aircraft becoming the Junkers Ju 248.
The design of the Ju 248/Me 263 started after the Me 163C because the Me 163C was not considered an adequate successor to the Me 163B because of its landing skid. The Ju 248/Me 263 took the wings and tail section of the Me 163B while the Me 163C was a completely new design.
Already on 25 September 1944 a wooden mock-up was shown to the officials. The fuselage was considerably modified to accommodate larger fuel tanks to give longer range, the cockpit was redesigned for pressurization and fitted with a bubble canopy to improve the rear view for the pilot, and the landing skid was replaced with a retractable tricycle undercarriage. The Walter HWK 109-509 rocket engine considered for the design was re-designed in its 509B and C versions to have two chambers, oriented one above the other - a larger main chamber to provide power for takeoff and climb, and a smaller, auxiliary chamber, placed underneath the main unit, to provide lower thrust (and therefore lower fuel consumption) for cruising at altitude. The auxiliary chamber afforded a thrust of 300 kgf (660 lbf) which was in addition to the main chamber's normal thrust of 1,700 kgf (3,750 lbf), and the intention was that the aircraft should take off and climb to operational altitude with both rocket chambers operating at full thrust, then cut the main chamber and cruise on the power of the auxiliary chamber alone. This engine arrangement had previously been tested on modified Me 163Bs. The production version was intended to be powered by the more powerful BMW 708 rocket engine in place of the Walter power plant.
Prior to the actual building of the Ju 248, two Me 163Bs, the V 13 and the V 18, were slated to be rebuilt. Unfortunately, the V 13 had deteriorated due to weather exposure, so only the V 18 was rebuilt. It is this aircraft that is often identified as the Me 163D. However, it should be made clear that there was no Me 163D, as this aircraft was built after the Ju 248 project had started. In November 1944, the aircraft was again redesignated as the Me 263 to show its connection with the Me 163. The two projects also got names - the Ju 248 Flunder (Flounder) and the Me 263 Scholle (Plaice).
Hertel had hoped to install Lorin ramjet engines, but this technology was still far ahead of its time. As a stopgap measure, they decided to build the aircraft with a Sondergerx�t (special equipment) in the form of a Zusatztreibstoffbehx�lter (auxiliary fuel tank). This meant two 160 L (42.2 US gal) external T-Stoff oxidizer tanks were to be installed under the wings. This would lead to a 10% speed decrease but no negative flight characteristics. Although Junkers claimed the Ju 248 used a standard Me 163B wing, they decided to modify the wing to hold more C-Stoff fuel. This modification was carried out by the Puklitsch firm.
In early 1945, Junkers proposed its own project, the EF 127 Walli rocket fighter, as a competitor to the Me 163C and Me 263. This was typical for the German war industry where companies still tried to outbid each other instead of focusing resources on a common project.
First unpowered flight of the Me 263 V1 was in February 1945. Several more unpowered flights took place that month. The biggest problem had to do with the center of gravity which was restored with the addition of counterweights. Eventually, the production aircraft would have repositioned the engine or the landing gear installation to solve this problem. The landing gear was still non-retractable. The results of those first flights was the aircraft gave a "ziemlich fertigen Eindruck", meaning that it seemed to be ready.
Test flights were later stopped because of fuel shortages for the Bf 110 towplanes. As the Me 263 was not a part of the Fx�hrernotprogramm (Fx�hrer's Emergency Programme), it was difficult to get the resources it needed. For the time being the plane was not expected to enter production but further development was allowed.
The V2 and V3 were not yet ready. The V2 was to get the retractable landing gear and the V3 would have the armament built in. The next month both the V1 and the V2 had the two-chambered HWK 109-509C installed, correcting the center-of-gravity problems. They flew only as gliders.
In April, the Americans occupied the plant and captured the three prototypes and the mock-up. The V2 was destroyed but another prototype ended up in the USA. The rest was handed over to the Russians who then created their own Mikoyan-Gurevich I-270 interceptor.
Specifications (Me 263 V1)
Length: 7.83 m (25 ft)
Wingspan: 9.50 m (31 ft 2 in)
Height: 3.17 m ()
Wing area: 17.80 m� (191.59 ft�)
Empty weight: 2,105 kg (4,640 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 5,150 kg (11,354 lb)
Powerplant: 1x� Walter HWK 109-509C-3 rocket, 19.61 kN (4,410 lbf)
Maximum speed: 880 km/h (550 mph) (14,000 m (45,000 ft))
Service ceiling: 14,000 m (45,212 ft)
Rate of climb: 150 m/s ()
Endurance:15 minutes at 11,000 m (36,090 ft)
(All performance figures estimated)
2 x� 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons in wing roots
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/me-263.php
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Once again the 2016 Llangynidr Agricultural Show was a huge success, thanks to everyone involved. In this our 10th year, we had a fantastic turnout of around 5,000 visitors, a strong showing in sheep and cattle classes, including in the new breed classes introduced this year, and in the various horse and dog classes, not forgetting the childrens' competitions, other agricultural classes, stick making and the vintage vehicles.
The main ring entertainments went down well, and despite the torrential rain showers in the afternoon, kept the audience gripped. A brilliant array of stalls in the Farmers' Market were busy all day, as were the many food, drink and trade stands around the showground. The demonstration tent also had a busy day, ranging from cookery and butchery, through beekeeping to comedy and storytelling.
Abergavenny Borough Band kept the crowds entertained from a marquee in the playing fields, while those around the main ring watched horses, dogs, falcons, fishermen and axemen. Meanwhile the garden and craft show (now in its 73rd year!) packed out the village hall and the grand draw was as popular as ever.
A special thank you to Mrs Linda Games and Mr John Games who opened the show for us in a fitting tribute to the community of Llangynidr.
Well done to all those who won prizes (see the results page and the garden and craft show page), and thank you to everyone who attended, especially those who stayed throughout the afternoon's showers. We look forward to seeing you all again next year, August 27th 2017.
Fluffy the Sheep Dragon
A highlight of this year's show, of which we are especially proud, was Fluffy the Sheep Dragon. Belonging to Kate Phillips on the organising committee, Fluffy was led around the showground throughout the day and raised
£550 for Cancer Research Wales,Crickhowell Branch.
Well done Fluffy and all her helpers!
Photos by our show photographer, Paul Thomson
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This Week in Washington: Supreme Court, DOL, and Health Care in Focus
Monday and Tuesday brought back-to-back hearings in the Senate to consider the nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the U.S. Supreme Court. Working people are listening closely to see if he will be a justice who respects the importance of laws and protections working people need on the job.
Throughout his career, Gorsuch’s record on workers’ rights cases has raised red flags, from his narrow and restrictive view of worker protections to the many times he sided with corporations over workers. He has ruled against workers with health and safety concerns, rejected claims of discrimination by employees and denied workers’ efforts to secure earned wages.
Working people deserve a Supreme Court justice who will defend our rights on the job. The New Jersey State AFL-CIO will join with our labor brothers and sisters around the nation to make it clear that we need a justice who believes in our right to form unions, in our right to be paid for overtime work and that we deserve safe workplaces free of discrimination.
Alexander Acosta’s hearing for labor secretary is scheduled for Wednesday, March 22, at 9:00 a.m. The House is scheduled to vote on the Republican health care package on Thursday, and we urge everyone to CLICK HERE to express their strong opposition to this destructive plan. While the road ahead will not be easy, our solidarity is what will ensure we persevere.
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His Dark Materials Part 2
So last week Ali and I went to see the first part of the National Theatre's adaptation of Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy of books. Ali unfortunately could not make Part 2 because she was not very well. So I invited my best mate Matt to use the unfortunately spare ticket. Here he is enjoying a glass of wine outside on the balcony at the half time interval.
Don't tell Ali that we enjoyed it though, I lied and said that it was rubbish to make her feel better about missing it. But in truth I have never seen such a spectacular production. Apparently it cost nearly a million pounds to stage the play and it really showed. The stage itself was unbelievable - there were over 60 different sets and without exception they were perfect. From Oxford University through to the Land of The Dead, the South Pole through to the palace of Armoured Bears. Simply stunning. And don't think that this was all done with simple effects and "suspension of disbelief". The stage moved up and down to reveal other sets and then split in half to reveal a screen showing virtual settings. In fact I'm told that the staging is so complicated that this production will never be able to be performed in any theatre than the Olivier because of it's unique capabilities. Simply stunning. Everyone with a love of theatre must see this play.
Update: You may quite rightly be thinking, who cares about the stage - aren't plays about the actors? Well it is a tribute to the production that the amazing sets did not overshadow a magnificent company of actors. From the principals Lyra and Will, the major supporting parts Lord Azriel and Mrs Coulter through to the whole cast, they were exceptional. The principals had a difficult task in that anyone who has read the books will have their own ideas of what these characters should have looked and sounded like - but it was uncanny - they all seemed so right. Perhaps this had something to do with Phillip Pullman, the author of the novels being so closely involved in the production? But when you consider the challenge of portraying things like all the character's daemons you realise what a good job has been done in bringing this to the stage.
If you haven't read the books this probably won't mean that much to you, so I would implore you to read them. They are truly magnificent (think Harry Potter with a brain and some substance). But once you have read them, rush down to the Olivier Theatre and book tickets. You won't be disappointed (unless you can't get a ticket I suppose). Special praise must go to the two camp/gay angels - read the books and then see the play and you'll see what I mean.
Posted by Mr Ports at 7:33 pm
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Tue Jul 22, 08:04:00 am BST
Strange sign
Can a geek last a week without touching a computer...
Manchester Rules!
Lost Travel Card
Microsoft buys Groove Networks
Beautiful Losers play the Borderline 5th March
Oh the embarrassment
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2018 EMA: The Must-See Moments You Cannot Miss
Nicki got raunchy, Janet got political and Camila had a message for Ariana...
Ross McNeilage
Sunday, November 4, 2018 - 23:15
The 2018 MTV EMAs took place this evening (Nov 4) in Bilbao, Spain and something in the air seemed to make everyone feel a little more free than usual.
Whether it was scaling skyscrapers while singing live, getting frisky onstage with a group of naked dancers or speaking out for women around the world, the stars were feeling bold and brave for the awards show of the season.
When a show lasts over two hours it can be difficult to summarise the wildest, most jaw-dropping and surprising or simply adorable or powerful moments into a short list but we think we've managed it for those who missed it.
Let's get to it!
Queen Nicki's Minaj-A-Trois
Nicki Minaj was feeling frisky with a capital F tonight as she performed her p-ssy-popping anthem 'Good Form' and Little Mix collaboration 'Woman Like Me' in one wild medley. During her 'Woman Like Me' verse, she got intimate with several bare dancers, especially two who she had a little ménage-à-trois moment with, leaving our jaws strapped to the floor and our jealousy metres out of control.
Jason Derulo’s Opera Moment
Jason Derulo continues to deliver bop after bop as one of pop's most reliable hitmakers, yet tonight he revealed a new layer to his talent.
Despite being famous for more than a decade now, we have never seen this side to him before as he surprised everyone with some opera singing to start his performance. Before delivering full-out choreography and a mini striptease to 'Goodbye', his major collab with David Guetta and Nicki Minaj, he enjoyed a Popstar to Operastar moment while singing the original version of Andrea Bocelli's 'Time to Say Goodbye'. More of this, please, JD!
Surprise! It's Little Mix
We all knew that Little Mix were performing at the 2018 MTV EMAs as we could barely contain ourselves when it was announced just days ago, however we had no idea what to expect from our favourite girls.
Making their EMA debut, the pop superstars surprised us all when they cut Nicki Minaj's 'Good Form' short and arrived onstage halfway through to join the rap queen for the debut performance of their collab 'Woman Like Me'. Complete with choreo, some butt-grabbing lovin' between Jade and Nicki, and one saucy verse from Minaj (remember? from up there?), it was definitely one to remember.
Camila Cabello’s Shout Out to “Wife” Ariana Grande
One superstar that was sorely missed during this year's EMAs was Ariana Grande, who understandably gave it a miss as she continues her break from the spotlight.
However, her several nominations kept her music alive in the moment and, Woman of the Evening, Camila Cabello gave her a special shout out during one of her many acceptance speeches. Thanking her fans and family for the second or third time in the night, she also chose to give a big thanks to her "wife" Ariana, also saying she loves her. The sweet moment of love and appreciation sure made our hearts swell, and brought Ari into the house.
Brendon Urie Scaling A Building
Sure, we're all about descending from ceilings and getting involved in some props but some people's bravery is just on a whole 'nother level.
Take Brendon Urie, for example, who decided to scale a building for his performance tonight. Like, really scale a building. We mean he was dangling from the side of a skyscraper, while singing live. The insane moment was thankfully only for the interlude of Panic! at the Disco's brilliant performance because our nerves couldn't have handled watching an entire three or four minutes of it, but it was wild to watch while it lasted.
Janet Jackson’s Empowering Speech To Women
The legendary Janet Jackson was honoured with the Global Icon award during this year's ceremony, and instead of reflecting on her vast and unique career, she chose to use her speech as an opportunity to stand up for women around the world.
“Tonight I speak for women whose voices have been stifled. I am one of those women," she said. "Women who have been gagged - both literally and emotionally. Women who have been abused, women who have been intimidated, women who live in fear… I stand with you. You are my sisters. Tonight I carry the hope that a new world is emerging. Women, our voices will be heard […] when we speak out for justice."
The powerful speech comes at an extremely important time for women. When world politics seems to be determined to reduce women's worth and the validity of their words, Janet affirmed everyone listening that they are valid, loved, deserving and supported, and it was beautiful to hear.
Janet Jackson Acceptance Speech for Global Icon | MTV EMAs 2018
Halsey Making It Rain
'Without Me' may be Halsey's most vulnerable single to date but she made sure that its debut live performance was tough, strong and totally badass.
Starting off chained to a box, the singer delivered a moving rendition of the emotional track as she freed herself - literally - before taking solace in the rain. And boy, was there a lot of rain! The singer was absolutely drenched by the end of the performance but it didn't stop her sounding or looking utterly amazing. Bravo, bbs.
More From EMA
2019 EMA | Full Performances
2019 EMA | Complete Winners List - BTS, Halsey, Taylor Swift & Billie Eilish Win Big!
2019 EMA | The Must-See Moments That Stole The Show
2019 EMA | NCT 127 Make History Performing 'Highway To Heaven'
2019 EMA | Watch The Performances!
2019 EMA | Dua Lipa Opens The Show With ‘Don’t Start Now’
Green Day 'Father Of All / Basket Case' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
Sofia Reyes Ft. Jhay Cortez 'A Tu Manera (Corbata)' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
Liam Gallagher 'Once / Wonderwall' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
NCT 127 'Highway To Heaven' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
Mabel 'Don't Call Me Up' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
Rosalía 'Di Mi Nombre' (Live - 2019 MTV EMA)
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Philosophy & Values
Beauty + Culture
Equity + Inclusion
Positive Social Relationships
Sustainable Ecologies
Pre K-12 Education
Real works well here. An eclectic band of individuals bound by a singular vision.
HAVING OUR SAY
of employees rate Mahlum excellent or above average as a workplace.
Collaborative, creative, and caring were rated by employees as traits most expressive of Mahlum’s culture.
People, vision, core values, and happy clients are Mahlum’s greatest strengths.
of employees want to engage in groundbreaking ideas and the work that flows from that source.
Mahlum is inspired to positively influence sustainability and social equity beyond the bounds of architecture.
of employees say excellent people are Mahlum’s greatest strength.
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Associate Principals
Abby Dacey
Associate Principal
AIA, LEED AP BD+C
“I love that every day of my professional life is different – and yet creativity is the key to all the work that I do. I see a future where bold steps – like partnering with health providers, inviting professionals into maker spaces, and incorporating birth-to-5 learning – will transform our schools into centers of community.”
Abby has 18 years of experience working with public and private institutions on campus and building design. She works with clients to find long-term solutions to complex challenges. She is adept at bringing together the voices from the client, user groups, contractor, and jurisdiction, all while ensuring that the design team has the resources to develop the right solution. With each project, she involves students’ voices and creates opportunities for them to learn more about building and design from the process.
Abby was a founding member of Architects Without Borders – Oregon, which provides pro-bono design services for communities in need. She has also served on the AIA-Portland board of directors and currently sits on the Architecture Foundation of Oregon board. With her professional work and service to the community, Abby advocates for design solutions that create stronger communities.
Abby has a Bachelor of Science in Architecture from The Catholic University of America, and a Masters of Architecture from the University of Texas at Austin. She is a registered architect in Oregon.
adacey@mahlum.com
Ada Ascencio
“From a simple sketch on a sheet of paper to a built reality. As a design professional it is rewarding to be able to create exciting sustainable spaces that will not only inspire people to interact and connect, but that will also impact generations to come.”
aascencio@mahlum.com
Allie Turek
“I think of every building as a puzzle. To solve the puzzle means considering every unique user need, carefully examining construction methods and materials, and relying on the strengths of each team member. Through these elements of design, an exciting and unique image is revealed.”
aturek@mahlum.com
Alyssa Leeviraphan
“Curiosity, wonder, and intrigue are what drive me in life and work. A desire to continually grow and share with others, in an effort to make positive change and bring joy. Developing meaningful relationships and discovering what makes each person, place, and situation special is what I seek.”
Alyssa has more than 21 years of architectural experience working on numerous educational facilities throughout the Pacific Northwest, giving her a unique understanding of the materials and construction techniques appropriate to heavily used public facilities. A skilled project manager, Alyssa works closely with the design team and her clients to maximize quality and efficiency, and offer creative, sustainable solutions.
Alyssa received a Bachelor of Architecture from Oklahoma State University. She is a registered architect in Oregon.
alyssal@mahlum.com
Andrew Weller-Gordon
“Through architecture, I hope to create a framework for people to interact, grow, and learn. The choices we make in design affect lives in subtle but powerful ways and have the potential to create vibrant, vital communities.”
aweller-gordon@mahlum.com
Andrew Zelenak
“Growing up, I had a lot of hobbies and interests, but Architecture always stuck out. It encourages creativity while maintaining a humanitarian motive, and demands constant (inescapable) learning. It involves so many disciplines and aspects of life that it never feels stagnant. I like learning new things, and savor opportunities to be inspired by the new and unfamiliar.”
azelenak@mahlum.com
Andy Drissell
AIA, LEED AP BD+C, EDAC
“I strive to approach my work with questions, not assumptions. Every project is a unique opportunity for architecture to improve the quality of life for our communities – to extend beyond conventions and take a more active role in promoting our health and well-being.”
Andy joined Mahlum in 2015 and serves as project architect for healthcare and K-12 projects. He has experience across a broad range of medical projects with particular expertise in design, medical planning and project coordination with all stakeholders. Andy strives to incorporate research and user engagement into the design process, and he’s passionate about architecture’s vital role in helping to improve health and well-being for the users and our communities. He also encourages Mahlum’s various studios to collaborate and share ideas, plus pulls in community members and experts to engage the office about a variety of topics.
Andy recently wrote about the benefits of supporting the circadian rhythm through proper lighting in “The Power of Light: Deploying Tunable Lighting to Support Healthcare” for Medical Construction & Design magazine.
Andy has a Master of Architecture from the University of Kansas. He is a registered architect in Washington and a LEED Accredited Professional.
adrissell@mahlum.com
Anne Schopf
“I am driven by my instinct to create order and serenity within an increasingly chaotic and dislocated world. I do that by re-connecting to the diversity of Mother Nature’s gifts, the seasons and the cycles of life. My favorite activity: forest bathing – any season, any location.”
Working across all studios in the firm in her role as Design Partner, Anne continually challenges teams to question deeply and listen intently to support the firm’s goal of creating healthy and sustainable spaces for their clients and the communities they serve.
Under her leadership, Mahlum was recognized with the 2014 American Institute of Architects Northwest and Pacific Region (AIA NWPR) Firm Award.
A dedicated champion of design excellence and environmental stewardship, Anne’s projects and professional activism continually enhance the discourse on design and place. With more than 80 regional and national design awards to her credit, she continually strives for the highest quality of design within strict parameters of performance.
Anne is the recipient of the 2013 AIA NWPR Medal of Honor, the highest commendation presented to an individual by the region, recognizing excellence in design, the practice of architecture, architectural education, and service to the profession. Elevated to Fellow in the AIA in 2007, she received a Bachelor of Architecture and Bachelor of Science in both Civil Engineering and Building Sciences from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. She is a registered architect in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, New York, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Louisiana, Hawaii, Alaska, Missouri, and New Jersey.
aschopf@mahlum.com
Becky Hutchinson
“I fell in love with cities while living abroad in Florence, and consider it my privilege to contribute to the narrative of our urban environments every day through design and architecture.”
Becky’s work between Boston and Seattle has focused on educational clients and the design of new learning environments – both inside and out – for our next generation of students, teachers, and communities. She has served as a project architect and project manager at Mahlum for the past six years where she focuses on creating smart, sustainable spaces for K-12 learners. She recently led the design effort for Northwood Elementary School on Mercer Island, the recipient of five design awards, including the Award of Excellence in Education Facility Design from AIA Committee on Architecture for Education.
Becky holds a Master of Architecture from Harvard University Graduate School of Design and a Bachelor of Arts from Brown University. She is a registered architect in Massachusetts.
rhutchinson@mahlum.com
Beth Brett
“I have been lucky to be given opportunities in my life that allow me to do something I love. Working with community colleges, universities, and K-12 schools, I make places for others to learn and grow, and hopefully give them the chance to do something they love in their life.”
Beth has more than 15 years of experience as a skilled manager of complex projects for colleges, universities, and primary education clients. Her expertise ranges from multiple facility assessments, programming, and planning projects to the remodel and new construction of facilities for a variety of user groups and stakeholders. Consistently praised by clients for her rigorous attention to detail and high quality service, her participation on various LEED accredited projects exemplifies the high level of quality that she achieves with every endeavor. She focuses on strategies to increase environmental stewardship in the built environment and has been a presenter for the City of Portland’s Bureau of Planning and Sustainability, and Oregon Business Magazine’s annual 100 Best Green Companies.
Beth received a Bachelor of Architecture from Kansas State University. She is a LEED- accredited professional and a licensed architect in Oregon and Arizona.
ebrett@mahlum.com
Binu Tulachan
“I’d like to imagine that our work is as much about observing, understanding, and appreciating the intricacies of the human condition as it is about making space.”
btulachan@mahlum.com
Brad Iest
“I spent my childhood summers camping up and down the West Coast and experienced the dramatic impact environments have on one’s well-being. This relationship with exterior environments is something that I believe is elemental in creating successful, healthy spaces.”
Brad has 16 years of experience as a designer of student housing and educational facilities. As one of Mahlum’s higher education studio leaders, he consistently applies best practices of design gleaned from working with clients at the forefront of pedagogical theories and residence life environments. Brad actively draws from his broad design expertise to foster a sense of community and learning for students.
Brad holds a Master of Architecture from University of Oregon and a Bachelor of Arts in Architecture from Miami University. He is a registered architect in the state of Oregon.
biest@mahlum.com
Brandon Lambrecht
“Born and raised in Kansas, I grew up with a strong appreciation of the prairie, artistry, and good BBQ. I have always had a lifelong interest in thoughtful innovative design and believe that architecture is a thoughtful response to the culture and spirit of each place.”
blambrecht@mahlum.com
Brandon Moggio
“Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much,” as Helen Keller wrote. The people around me inspire me. The most rewarding part of my job is working together as a team. We can inspire trust and respect in all our encounters with a willingness to move forward with patience, tact, and enthusiasm.”
bmoggio@mahlum.com
Brett Dunnam
“As a passionate designer, I have a constant curiosity that drives my interactions with the natural and built environment. That curiosity motivates me to turn complex questions and problems into functional and beautiful spaces.”
bdunnam@mahlum.com
Brian Gerich
“Someone smart once said that architecture is about how a building feels, not only how it looks. I agree. I think this also includes how architecture performs and I try to consider these ideas in my work as well as in the broader context of our built environment – sustainability, health, beauty, ecology, resilience, economy, and community.”
bgerich@mahlum.com
Bryan Hollar
“I am inspired by the importance of our role as designers of learning environments in a time of dramatic societal and environmental change. Our work has the opportunity and responsibility to positively shape the way young people interact with each other, with information, and with the world around them for generations to come.”
bhollar@mahlum.com
Carissa Barry
– Charles Eames
cbarry@mahlum.com
Catherine Maloney
“As a student at Gibson Ek High School, I intern at Mahlum two school days a week to experience the world outside the traditional classroom. Mahlum has taught me much – including the importance of a diverse, colorful, and sizable pen collection.”
info@mahlum.com
Christian Van Waasen
“Projects often have restricted budgets leading many architects to ascribe to “form follows finance.” I, on the other hand, believe that the best spaces are those that don’t rely on the glitz and glamour, but instead appeal to all our five senses and awaken us with their presence.”
cvanwaasen@mahlum.com
“A building is not truly sustainable unless durability, economy, and resilience are considered. Often the best design is the simplest and sometimes the greenest building is the one that already exists.”
With a passion for sustainable design and historic renovations, Chris currently serves as the project architect of the Grant High School Modernization project in Portland. His academic background in philosophy and math inspires his approach to architecture which emphasizes a thoughtful and pragmatic path to problem solving that strives to synthesize multiple objectives to serve a larger design vision.
Chris holds a Master of Architecture from University of Washington and a Bachelor of Arts from Swarthmore College. He is a registered architect in Oregon.
cbrown@mahlum.com
Claudia Saunders
“My biggest drive is to create spaces that allow people to thrive while working, learning and healing. I believe my role as a designer is to really listen to what users need, want, hate, love, and question, and to translate that into our shared language and story – which becomes their unique space where function, beauty and budget complement each other.”
csaunders@mahlum.com
Corrie Rosen
“In order to enhance the public’s appreciation of architecture, I’ve made social outreach an integral part of my practice. I consider the built environment a laboratory – an opportunity to create stimulating new ways of learning and to empower students to effect positive change.”
Corrie works closely with school clients to better understand the technical and organizational issues affecting education and the needs of 21st Century learners. Her expertise in educational facilities design and technical strategies has been honed over 16 years of practice, and she brings keen sensitivity and commitment to enhancing the public’s understanding of the importance of architecture.
Corrie has a Bachelor of Arts in Design of the Environment from University of Pennsylvania and a Master of Architecture from Columbia University. She is a registered architect in Washington and is a LEED-Accredited Professional.
crosen@mahlum.com
Czarina Ducay
“Growing up around poverty has immensely shaped the way I perceive the built environment. My passion for design falls in the spectrum of curating spaces to enhance the experience and engaging within the greater social context.”
cducay@mahlum.com
Dara Smyth
“I’m inspired by the process of uncovering latent strengths while embracing and understanding these potentials. I strive to cultivate vibrant experiences from these untapped resources, weaving them throughout to empower communities.”
dsmyth@mahlum.com
“I strongly believe in a collaborative process in which the client and end users play a critical role, and that architecture of lasting quality is not merely a static object to be admired nor a product to be commodified, but is to be designed with the human experience at its core.”
dcole@mahlum.com
“I am constantly fascinated by cities: their histories, functions, and future potential. I am always looking for more information on context to create better design interventions.”
ddahl@mahlum.com
David Mount
“We stand together to support each other and to serve our communities. Through our service and with our values of compassion, empathy, justice, and equity, we lead and take action to promote social change and to protect our planet and all of its inhabitants.”
David leads Mahlum’s K-12 practice and is widely recognized for his creative, integrated solutions for educational facilities. His technical understanding and design sensitivity have helped deliver sustainable, inventive, and effective environments for learning inside and outside of the classroom. Committed to a collaborative approach, David’s project teams have been recognized with more than 40 design awards, including several AIA Committee on Architecture for Education (CAE) honors, three A4LE (formerly CEFPI) MacConnell Award finalists, and two AIA Committee on the Environment (COTE) Top Ten Green projects.
David has served as chair of the AIA Seattle Committee on the Environment and is currently on the advisory council of Washington Green Schools, a non-profit organization committed to supporting environmental education in schools across the state. With his broad understanding of all aspects of project delivery, David directs the firm’s Integrated Practice initiatives, ensuring the highest caliber of design, technical, and management innovation throughout all areas of our work.
David holds a Bachelor of Architecture from the University of Arizona and is a registered architect in Oregon and Washington. He is a LEED-Accredited Professional.
dmount@mahlum.com
David Perzik
“The inspiration in my life and work is to be thoughtful and creative. At the same time, in architecture we are also asked to be accurate and experimental in our approach to solutions and design. If I can do all that and provide my team and client with a positive experience during each project, then I feel like I have succeeded.”
David has 30 years of experience in all aspects of architecture and is passionate about developing creative approaches to solving building challenges. His responsibilities have included design, medical planning, programming, consultant coordination, construction document production, and construction administration. David is known for his strong technical skills and eye for detail, powerful assets in the design and construction of complex healthcare environments.
He holds a Bachelor of Architecture from the University of Southern California and is a registered architect in Oregon and California.
dperzik@mahlum.com
David Sarti
“For me, the joy of architecture is elevating people and communities often marginalized to feel dignified and inspired. Motivated in this way, design takes on a life of its own. Celebrating people and their needs results in work that is relevant, transformative, and unexpected.”
dsarti@mahlum.com
Dwayne Epp
AIA, LEED AP, CDT CSI
“Today, our environment calls us to focus on sustainability and the resiliency of our buildings. My role at Mahlum has been to mentor project teams to address these construction challenges, finding new ways to create buildings that use their materials in an efficient and elegant way.”
In more than 31 years of architectural practice, Dwayne has been involved in a broad range of projects – from assisting public and independent schools in creating new facilities and renovating existing ones, to significant institutional, high-rise, and single family residential experience. At Mahlum, he’s worked on student housing, healthcare, and commercial projects, making himself indispensable through his vast technical experience and onsite construction administration experience.
Dwayne leads Mahlum’s Quality Assurance program; his unbiased review across all projects in the firm improves product selection and constructability. He also mentors Mahlum’s young architects to ensure consistent and accurate documentation. Other professionals in the field have noted that Dwayne “has the experience that few in [the] industry have anymore, the interest in detailing, accuracy of specifications, as well as negotiation.”
Dwayne earned his Master of Architecture and Bachelor of Environmental Studies from the University of Manitoba. He is a registered architect in Washington.
depp@mahlum.com
Edgardo Arroyo
“In constant movement between San Juan, Barcelona, New York and Seattle, I have devoted myself to collecting experiences in 36 countries that have introduced me to different cultures, landscapes, languages and foods. I’m always looking for ways to express that baggage through design.”
earroyo@mahlum.com
Elijah Coley
“I knew from an early age that I wanted to make a lasting impact in this world. Architecture is the language I use to leave a legacy of healthy, sustainable, and responsible buildings for those after me. I am dedicated to creating spaces that enhance the lives of those that aspire to learn, dream, and heal. At Mahlum I am supported by like-minded creatives, living out their childhood dreams of building a better world for us all.”
ecoley@mahlum.com
Emily Everett
“I have always had a fascination with doors and their ability to act as barriers, transitions, and access all at the same time. As a threshold and entrance into to the built experience and the first impression of a building, I believe they should be beautiful and inspiring.”
eeverett@mahlum.com
Emma Nolan
LEED AP BD+C
“Architecture cannot be successful when it’s designed in a vacuum. As designers we need be responsive and responsible to the needs of all communities. Communication is key – we must initiate the discussion. These voices serve as the best inspiration for successful design.”
enolan@mahlum.com
Erica Hildebrand
Associate, Visual Communications Manager
“Equal parts graphic designer, storyteller, historian, observer, artist.”
Erica’s 26 years of experience as a graphic designer (22 of those years in architecture) has made her deft at visual storytelling, both internally and externally. Her experience ranges from print to digital, and touches upon everything from project photography to the creation of marketing materials and complex award submittals. A product of her Seattle area upbringing, Erica’s Northwest roots influence her work and inspire her fresh and fearless approach to challenges. She excels at discovering opportunities that help continually strengthen Mahlum’s brand personality and potential.
ehildebrand@mahlum.com
Erin Burkard
“Human stories and experiences have always fascinated me, especially when viewed through the lens of culture and psychology. Translating this to design, I constantly look for ways to bridge between design scales to share these stories and experiences through the built environment and foster stronger communities.”
eburkard@mahlum.com
“Always trying to find the right words to describe the world around me. Whether poetry, prose, or marketing write-up, everything sounds better with colorful adjectives, a little humor, and a smattering of exclamation marks (which I sometimes get carried away with!!).”
hlogue@mahlum.com
Henry Lennon
“I’m a 2-time polka dance champion from the great city of Branson, MO. Having now traded my dancing shoes in for hiking boots, I am always intrigued with what other people’s stories are. Coworkers and clients alike, I find it’s these unique backgrounds that shape and define a project.”
hlennon@mahlum.com
Igor Draskovic
“Born in Sarajevo, I have always wanted to rebuild cities that have suffered as it has. I believe that each building lives in a context of not only space, but time, and that architects can influence and educate each generation. I am inspired by everyday experiences, art, hip-hop and travel.”
idraskovic@mahlum.com
Ilva Wilson
“I love making things. I was drawn to architecture because it is the art and the science of making the world around us. The best architecture subtly improves our lives, creating places where it is easier to work, to learn, to play, to live.”
iwilson@mahlum.com
Janet Jacobs
Age Quod Agis
“I continually strive to live by these words in life and work. It inspires me to achieve quality and integrity in all that I do.”
jjacobs@mahlum.com
Jason Manson
“Technologies and methods that improve the quality, cost-effectiveness, and performance of our designs is where my passion lays. I love teaching, coaching, and providing moral support for our digital design efforts.”
Jason has been with Mahlum for more than eight years as an architect who is also passionate about utilizing technology to empower the design process. He is responsible for BIM management and implementation, coordinating standards and workflows, and developing content for teams working in Revit. Additionally, he’s in charge of technology support and training for all of Mahlum, and orchestrates all areas of digital practice for the firm.
Jason graduated from the University of Oregon with a Bachelor of Architecture and is a registered architect in Oregon. A LEED-Accredited Professional, Jason also offers valuable insight into the implementation of sustainable design tools.
jmanson@mahlum.com
Jay Hindmarsh
AIA, CSI CCS, LEED AP, WELL AP
“A Seattle architect, dad, husband and Lab-wrangler.”
Jay is a skillful technical architect and specifier with over 20 years of project experience. He specializes in directing the delivery of nationally award-winning educational and public building designs in the Pacific Northwest through thoughtful documentation, material and system specifications, and successful construction administration.
Jay assists in leading the Mahlum Best Practices and Quality Assurance teams to ensure that project design and technical rigor are realized for all delivery methods and construction budgets. Passionate about the environmental impact of our profession, Jay is an active member of the Mahlum Sustainability Steering Committee and spearheads the internal Healthy Materials Community at the office, where he mentors other staff and champions the selection of better materials.
He earned his Bachelor of Architecture and Bachelor of Science in Building Sciences from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and he is a LEED-Accredited Professional. He is a registered architect in Washington.
jhindmarsh@mahlum.com
Jeff Goldblatt
“I am motivated to explore and reshape new avenues of habitable space for current and future generations. It is my hope to design this beautiful, ecologically sustainable future with others – one that motivates and inspires our community to live to their fullest potential.”
jgoldblatt@mahlum.com
Jeff Sandler
“I believe design excellence at all scales influences day-to-day life, and has the potential to elevate our interactions with the world around us. The challenge to provide this to our clients motivates me to craft spaces that facilitate curiosity, wonder, and compassion.”
jsandler@mahlum.com
Jennifer Huang
“I draw inspiration from designs that bring communities together. Connecting people to places in emotional and creative ways is what drives me to explore the unifying relationship between landscape, urban environments, and architecture.”
jhuang@mahlum.com
Jennifer Lubin
“Graphical excellence is that which gives to the viewer the greatest number of ideas in the shortest time with the least ink in the smallest space.”
– Edward Tufte
jlubin@mahlum.com
Jeremy Rear
“Building partnerships. Commitment to client service. The ability to bring people together, listen carefully, and think in innovative ways…All, are very important to me. They inspire me and drive my work.”
Jeremy has carefully nurtured his experience of more than 21 years, maintaining a commitment to the development of innovative education and housing facilities. Offering a record of successful projects for higher-education institutions, he demonstrates a precise technical understanding of project management, design process, and sustainable site and building concepts. Jeremy’s ability to bring stakeholders together as partners to collaborate in innovative ways results in projects that are long-term assets to collegiate environments and the populations who use them.
Jeremy holds a Bachelor of Architecture from University of Oregon. He is a registered architect in Oregon and holds an Oregon Department of Education Assessor Certificate.
jrear@mahlum.com
Jeremy Thompson
“I am intrigued by ways the built environment can blend with nature and revitalize through the restorative qualities of natural light, air, and sound. I’m drawn to engaging public spaces and the unexpected, an “Architecture of Small Moments” waiting to be discovered.”
jthompson@mahlum.com
Jesse Walton
AIA, CPHC, LEED AP BD+C
“I am inspired by beautifully detailed buildings and forming lasting sustainable public architecture. I am passionate about the process and technology around creating space. In my 12+ years at Mahlum, I am still impressed by the work my peers do and am thankful to work here.”
With more than 17 years of experience with educational clients, Jesse is passionate about creating sustainable, healthy spaces for learners of all ages. As project architect, he works closely with design teams and district staff to maximize quality and efficiency, and offer creative solutions. An early adopter of BIM, he is an office-wide leader in Revit documentation, building envelope design, and energy code compliance.
Jesse holds a Bachelor of Architecture from the Rhode Island School of Design. He is a registered architect in the state of Washington, a LEED-Accredited Professional, and a Certified Passive House Consultant (CPHC).
jwalton@mahlum.com
Jessica Lapano
Assoc. AIA, LEED GA
“I think of architecture as a sculpture you can live in. I believe that a connection to nature and an integrated sense of place is intrinsic to the performance and wellness of the architecture’s inhabitant.”
jlapano@mahlum.com
JoAnn Hindmarsh Wilcox
“David Henry Thoreau wisely said, “To affect the quality of the day – that is the highest of the arts.” So what a privilege it is to practice architecture – a human, and humane, art with the power to improve lives, heal the earth, create beauty, and unify us all.”
JoAnn is a recognized leader of architectural design and public engagement strategy, specializing in the creation of buildings that support student life and advance educational goals. Her work highlights a quiet sensitivity to place, craft, and people, leveraging spatial and functional exploration; multi-disciplinary collaboration; and the cultivation of social interaction through design within the public realm. She is a frequent speaker on issues in architecture related to equity, inclusion, and creating agile learning environments that align space to pedagogy. With nearly 21 years of experience in master planning and architectural design, her work has achieved local to international recognition with awards from A4LE, AIA, and the national AIA Committee on Architecture for Education.
JoAnn holds a Bachelor of Architecture and a Bachelor of Science in Building Science from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. She is a registered architect in Oregon and Washington, and is a LEED-Accredited Professional.
jwilcox@mahlum.com
John Paananen
“I believe in creating inspiring places that nurture, grow and connect our potential with our communities and ecologies. I believe in making places that support the spirit allowing us to heal. I believe in the power of imagination and the tenacity of nature.”
jpaananen@mahlum.com
Joseph Mayo
“I’m an architect, author and researcher of wood building. I’ve worked with CLT and have been involved in city and state coalitions to go beyond the building code with wood. Please see my book Solid Wood: Mass Timber Architecture, Technology and Design, and let’s talk timber!”
Joseph Mayo is an architect in Seattle and author of the first book devoted solely to mass timber commercial buildings. At Mahlum, he advised on the first installation of Oregon-made structural cross-laminated timber (CLT) in the country at Western Oregon University’s Richard Woodcock Education Center. He recently completed a series of three CLT classroom buildings in Washington State.
An advocate for the use of mass timber, Joe has worked with the City of Seattle Department of Planning and Development, and Washington State non-profit Forterra to lead investigations into the use of CLT in building. Recently, as Chair of Forterra building Code and Regulations Action Team, Joe helped to successfully pass new building codes in Washington State that will recognize mass timber as a construction type, and allow up to 18 stories of CLT building.
Joe has served on local and national AIA committees, co-authored a research paper exploring the economic viability of tall wood buildings, and assisted in teaching mass timber courses.
Joe holds a Master of Architecture from University of Oregon and a Bachelor of Arts in Communications from University of Washington.
jmayo@mahlum.com
Julia Stong
“The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it.”
jstong@mahlum.com
“I’m inspired by architecture that empowers people to take control of their own environment – architecture that reveals an alertness to the natural world, shapes the way we encounter it, and invites us to explore.”
In her 13 years with Mahlum, Karen has worked as a member of design teams to create innovative solutions for educational facilities at all levels. Her recent efforts include Arlington Elementary School, which is redefining traditional learning spaces for Tacoma Public Schools, the Mercer Island High School Music Room and Classroom Addition and Renovation projects, as well as the design and construction of a 285,000 square foot High School for Issaquah School District.
Karen holds a Bachelor of Architecture from the University of Virginia and a Master of Architecture from the University of Washington. She is a registered architect in Washington.
kwood@mahlum.com
Kari Heus
IIDA, LEED AP
You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don’t make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can’t take their eyes off you.
Kari has 16 years of experience as an interior designer working with healthcare facilities, commercial and educational clients, and her favorite – libraries. She has a strong belief that the environments we design deeply impact how people engage with others, and the world as a whole. Kari thinks designers have the power to craft spaces that influence the emotions and mindset of its users. She feels that engaging clients as the experts in the design conversations creates more successful, unified projects.
Kari holds a Bachelor of Science in Interior Architecture from the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
kheus@mahlum.com
Katie Felver
Assoc. AIA
“A lot of us in the architecture community are members of the “look-up-club”…but I prefer the “look up, down, all-around club.” Our world is diverse, colorful, inspiring, and full of little lessons if we just look and listen close enough.”
kfelver@mahlum.com
Keyna Mulvaney
“Never underestimate the power of design” is one of my favorite quotes. In this profession, we have the ability to add beauty to the ordinary in unexpected ways; that is what inspires me the most.”
kmulvaney@mahlum.com
Kim Olson
“Someone once told me to always remember what is important to you. My priority in life is the people in it – whether it’s my family, friends, coworkers, or clients, I’m consistently inspired by and grateful for the community I live and work in.”
Joining Mahlum in 2013, Kim brings more than 16 years of experience in project architecture and management. Deeply appreciative of her own collegiate experience, Kim has a passion for design that enriches the living and learning environments for students and faculty. She is a skilled manager of complex projects and takes pride in listening to the needs of all constituents through the design process.
Committed to serving the profession of architecture, Kim has served on the American Institute of Architects Portland Chapter Board of Directors, and chaired the AIA Committee on Architecture for Education’s Spring 2017 conference. She currently is an active member of CAE’s higher education subcommittee and participates in AIAO’s Legislative Affairs Committee Firm Roundtable.
Kim earned a Master of Architecture from Tulane University. She is a registered architect in Oregon.
kolson@mahlum.com
Kurt Haapala
“I enjoy engaging deeply and listening intently to the users of our buildings. Through their voices and the honest sharing of who they are and what their journey is all about, we understand how design can support them. We are the translators, the storytellers of their journey through the built environment.”
Kurt is an industry leader in the planning and design of student life and housing facilities. Having worked with more than a dozen colleges and universities across the West, he has built the firm’s higher education housing studio into a nationally recognized practice. His design concepts were instrumental in helping to achieve LEED Platinum Certification for Ackerman Hall at Western Oregon University, the first residence hall in the country to do so. Kurt’s enthusiasm for student and stakeholder engagement has inspired his extensive research, writing, and speaking on how the built environment can positively impact student outcomes.
As Partner-in-Charge of Business Development, Kurt leverages his passion and energy to propel Mahlum’s market sectors toward clarity and purpose-driven design responses.
Kurt holds a Master of Architecture and Bachelor of Science from the University of Michigan. He is a registered architect in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, California, Michigan, New Jersey, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana, and is a LEED-Accredited Professional. Kurt served as the 2011 President of the Portland Chapter of the AIA and was a 2010 and 2011 Delegate to the AIA Oregon and AIA NWPR Board of Directors.
khaapala@mahlum.com
Laura Craig-Bennett
AIA LEED GA
“I came to architecture with two strengths from my time as a youth media educator: visual storytelling and facilitating collaboration. My passion is working with educators and students to design forward-thinking schools.”
lcraig-bennett@mahlum.com
“Designing for children has always been beyond inspiring for me. Their ingenuity, passion, and excitement about life sparks my imagination and inspires me to create quirky environmental graphics, choose bold color and material palettes, and design spaces for them that are not only healthy and sustainable, but the most original and creative environments that I have to offer.”
“If we want children to flourish, to become truly empowered, then let us allow them to love the earth before we ask them to save it.”
– David Sobel
ldavis@mahlum.com
LeRoy Landers
“When I was fourteen, I knew that I wanted to be an architect. I loved drawing. I loved solving gnarly problems. I loved to build things. What I didn’t know is that architecture is, at its very core, about people. For me, this is the most rewarding aspect of being an architect.”
An engaging and visionary designer, LeRoy guides the practice in pursuit of values-based work that enriches community. His leadership style encourages an integrated approach to planning and design with shared responsibility to push for the best work possible. LeRoy has more than 31 years of architectural experience with educational facilities encompassing facility planning, programming, design, and analysis for diverse new construction and renovation/addition projects. His continuous passion to create visionary facilities that respect community while meeting clients’ goals can be seen in his K-12 work with various school districts across the Pacific Northwest.
LeRoy is a Certified Facility Assessor in Washington and Oregon and a Certified Long Range Facility Planner in Oregon. He has a Bachelor of Architecture from University of Oregon and a Master of Architecture from University of Pennsylvania. He is a registered architect in Washington and Oregon, and has served as President of AIA Portland and on its Board of Directors.
llanders@mahlum.com
Lindsay Dunton
-Robert Swan
ldunton@mahlum.com
Lisa Awazu Wellman
“After receiving my Bachelor of Architecture at Syracuse University and working in Tokyo, I discovered that architecture speaks beyond cultural differences and language barriers. My experiences in Japan also taught me that simplicity can speak volumes, and the importance of every detail.”
LisaAW@mahlum.com
Marijana Misic
AIA, LEED GA
“With the understanding that the built environment has an important impact on one’s well-being, I strive to bring thoughtful design closer to the everyday user. Furthermore, as my career was developing, I made the conscious decision to channel my efforts toward project types that have a positive impact on the greater society.”
mmisic@mahlum.com
Mark Cork
“Now in my 21st year with Mahlum, I am a partner and leader of the firm’s flourishing higher education and healthcare practices. I’m also passionate about local and statewide advocacy efforts, previously serving as president for AIA Washington Council.”
Mark leads the firm’s Higher Education studio and serves as Partner-in-Charge of Operations. He offers a wealth of insight into campus and facility planning issues for both educational and healthcare institutions. His engaging management style and detailed knowledge of facility planning strategies have enabled him to provide deft leadership for numerous campus projects, including the University of Washington West Campus Housing Phase I, which won a 2013 National AIA Housing Award and a 2013 SCUP Honor Award for Excellence in Planning. Mark leverages his management skills to support the health of the firm as he oversees and guides all aspects of Mahlum’s operations.
Mark is serving as the 2018 president for AIA Washington Council where he advocates for the architectural profession and public policies that promote healthy, livable communities. A LEED-Accredited Professional, Mark holds a Bachelor of Architecture degree from California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, and is a registered architect in Washington, California, Oregon and New Jersey.
mcork@mahlum.com
Mike Kolander
“Schools are among the most gratifying projects that we help to create. They are the social anchor of the communities they serve. Schools are interesting buildings full of spaces with a variety of functions and qualities, the result of the contributions of many people with diverse interests. These efforts are for the direct benefit of children and ultimately all of us.”
mkolander@mahlum.com
Nancy Harmon
Associate Principal, Controller
“I choose to practice the art of accounting.”
Nancy joined Mahlum as the 2008 recession was beginning. As Corporate Controller, her foresight and financial guidance helped maintain the health of our firm. She continues to oversee financial reporting, budgeting, capital expenditures, and employee benefits to ensure a healthy triple bottom line as the firm shapes its 10-year strategic plan.
nharmon@mahlum.com
Nicole Walter
“I’m inspired to shape the world we share for the benefit of all: inspiring spaces with a responsible use of materials for the well-being of inhabitants and the planet. I’ve succeeded when I hear a student excited about their new school say “Come check this out, it’s the best!”
nwalter@mahlum.com
Niki Lesko
Principal, Director of Marketing & Business Development
“People don’t buy what you do; they buy why you do it. And what you do simply proves what you believe.”
– Simon Sinek
Niki has 21 years of experience in marketing and business development for professional services. An engaging and committed leader, she offers rich insight to efforts ranging from client research and new project pursuits, to external communication and positioning of senior architects as thought leaders. In her 20 years with Mahlum, Niki has directed numerous procurement pursuits for new construction, modernization, and master planning for pre K-12 education, colleges, and universities; healthcare; and non-profit clients. As a result, she holds an unmatched understanding of the benchmark for marketing of AEC services today, where they need to be tomorrow, and how to get there.
In addition to these project-based efforts, Niki is a member of Mahlum’s executive team and helps craft on-going efforts to progress the firm. Niki has also been the recipient of the Marketer of the Year Award from SMPS Oregon.
Niki has a Bachelor of Science in Merchandising Management from Oregon State University.
nlesko@mahlum.com
Octavio Gutierrez
“After a fourth grade architecture field trip, I became mesmerized with the role of the built environment in our lives. I am thankful this led to a career where the challenges and complex problem-solving of the design process are just as rewarding as walking the finished product.”
With more than 15 years in the profession, Octavio’s experience covers all phases of architecture, from programming and pre-design through construction administration. Focused on higher education projects across many university campuses and versed in a variety of project delivery methods, he has consistently maintained an interest in embedding sustainable and urban/campus strategies into design concepts. His experience as a construction project engineer and cost estimator has enabled him to share lessons learned, anticipate challenges during design, and successfully facilitate communication between the design team, owners, and contractors.
Octavio has a Bachelor of Science in Art and Design from Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a Master of Architecture from University of California, Berkeley.
ogutierrez@mahlum.com
Pam Wasson
“In communications, I think we all start with good intentions and must work carefully to achieve the impact we intend. What I love about working with our people is that the same process applies to the built environment.”
pwasson@mahlum.com
Philip Straeter
Philip hails from Berlin and has worked on a broad range of projects in the U.S., Germany and Africa—from educational facilities and multi-family housing, to large commercial mixed-use developments. These experiences have contributed to his appreciation for thoughtful design solutions that enhance the urban environment and promote healthy communities.
pstraeter@mahlum.com
Pip Allen
AIA CDT
“Kids are the best judges of buildings. While some buildings look great in a skyline, the best ones are interesting from a child’s perspective. Textures to touch, landscapes to play on, or views that make kids quiet with wonder are the building blocks of great architecture.”
pallen@mahlum.com
PJ Bauser
“Thoughtful design can have transformative impacts on the way that we live and work and play. I’m excited to be a part of a team chasing how we can shape the built environment to improve health outcomes. When I’m not doing that, you can find me logging some long miles on the bike.”
With more than 11 years of architectural experience, PJ brings a deep knowledge of healthcare design principles and a passion for the patient experience. As one of our healthcare practice leaders, he understands that smart planning promotes operational efficiencies. He uses LEAN principles skillfully to guide teams as they envision next-generation care strategies. During projects, PJ develops innovative systems and cohesive team building strategies to achieve high-quality outcomes.
PJ earned his Bachelor of Science and a Master of Architecture from the University of Cincinnati College Of Design, Art and Architecture. He is a registered architect in Washington and a LEED-Accredited Professional.
pjbauser@mahlum.com
Quinten McElvain
“Designer, thinker, and collaborator. Uses a wide range of media to explore design. I believe that each design should be tailored to the specific story of each client and responsive to its place and context. Then, apply those ideologies to the way we create and interact with the space.”
qmcelvain@mahlum.com
Rachel Auerbach
“One thing I love about designing schools is that they include libraries, theaters, dining places – they’re like self-contained cities. Those spaces are rich with design possibilities and ways to convey to the students that we, as a society, care about them, as people.”
Rachel, a project architect with 8 years of professional experience, approaches every project with a fresh perspective, asking difficult questions and arriving at unexpected solutions to help create exciting and well-loved buildings. Her ability to balance constructability and economy with delight and beauty in every project has built a strong rapport with her clients.
Rachel holds a Master of Architecture from University of Oregon and a Bachelor of Arts from Oberlin College. She is a registered architect in Oregon.
rauerbach@mahlum.com
Rene Berndt
“I am inspired by the multitude of social, emotional, and physical characteristics that make each human unique, and I like to translate those into the creation of built environments that generate wellbeing.”
With 26 years of architectural experience, Rene Berndt offers extensive knowledge of learning environments that address the specific needs of every age group of learners. Through an engaging process that is based on active participation by all stakeholders, Rene deepens his understanding of the social, emotional, and physical characteristics, goals, and dreams of learners, teachers, and community members on every project. His proposed design solutions aim to turn every building into a useful tool for all users, minimizing the ecological footprint and creating general wellbeing.
Rene enjoys sharing his work and research during university lectures and conference presentations. His work has been featured in numerous design publications, including Architectural Record, and has been recognized with diverse regional and national AIA CAE and A4LE design awards. Most notably for the MHCC Early Childcare Center in Gresham, Oregon, Thurston Elementary School in Springfield, Oregon, and Roosevelt Middle School in Eugene, Oregon.
Rene came to Mahlum following six years of practice in Berlin, Germany, as well as six years working in Los Angeles and Monterey, California. He graduated from the Technical University of Aachen (RWTH) in Germany and studied at London’s Architectural Association School of Architecture as a British Council Scholarship recipient. He is a registered architect in California and Washington.
rberndt@mahlum.com
Robyn Wrobleski
“I believe that, at its best, architecture is one of the world’s great equalizers. A beautiful, comfortable space can truly change someone’s life for the better.”
rwrobleski@mahlum.com
Rodrigo Meira
“Best life lessons learned from backpacking the Pacific Northwest: only take what you absolutely need, carry your own weight, one step at a time.”
In the 12 years that Rod has worked at Mahlum, he has primarily focused on K-12 projects and consistently demonstrated his ability to help create exceptional education facilities with a highly collaborative and inclusive approach. Rod applies his passion for integrative sustainable design by finding synergetic solutions which support client goals and improve our impact on the health of building users and the environment.
He was integral to the development of Cascadia Elementary School, Robert Eagle Staff Middle School and Licton Springs K-8 for Seattle Public Schools, where a shared educational campus for the three schools replaced an outdated facility. Through careful planning, the team was able to maintain existing local artwork by preserving, relocating and reinstalling large, culturally-significant Native American murals painted on the original building’s walls.
Rod has a Bachelor of Architecture from Virginia Tech. He is a registered architect in Washington and a LEED Accredited Professional.
rmeira@mahlum.com
Rosanne Lynch
“I enjoy working on public projects that enrich the overall community both aesthetically as well as socially. I believe the most vulnerable members of our society should be central to our design thinking—and through this focus we can make meaningful contributions to the built environment.”
rlynch@mahlum.com
Roy Abdun-Nur
“With a background in both education and design, I am passionate about creating safe, thoughtfully designed spaces for both Pre K–12 and Higher Education environments that exceed the expectations of students, educators, and support staff.”
rabdun-nur
Sarah Payton
“I am fascinated with people – with the human interaction that occurs between generations, cultures, backgrounds and the stories that result from those unique moments in time. Architecture is a mechanism that embeds its values into the lives of communities and people who will continue to share these moments and generate stories amongst each other for years to come.”
spayton@mahlum.com
“Architecture is the backdrop where life takes place. It is our professional responsibility to act as stewards to provide healthy, vibrant communities by creating a symbiotic relationship with architecture and the environments in which we design.”
smurphy@mahlum.com
Serena Gardiner
AIA LEED AP BD+C
“As an architect, artist and (former) engineer, I firmly believe that through a willingness to experiment, qualities such as beauty, innovation, sustainability and socially-conscious design can be achieved with even the smallest budget or the most difficult constraints.”
sgardiner@mahlum.com
Stacey Crumbaker
Assoc. AIA, IIDA
“I listen for opportunities in a project that encourage a stronger dialogue, erasing the edge between architecture and interior design, and fostering a seamless experience as individual users navigate through space.”
Practicing at the intersection of architecture and interiors, Stacey brings a unique perspective and expertise to the design of educational facilities. With more than 13 years of experience, she has cultivated her practice as a response to human experience and deeply believes in architecture’s ability to shape community. Her work stems from a foundation of cohesive project delivery and knits together the poetics of design with the technicalities of construction.
Stacey received a Bachelor of Science in Interior Design and a Master of Architecture from Arizona State University. She is NCIDQ Certified, and is currently working toward her architectural license.
scrumbaker@mahlum.com
Stacy Rosenbach-Duex
“Fresh clean air, verdant grass, brilliant sparkling lakes, snow-capped mountains, rolling hills, crops in the field, meandering river valleys, stately forests, autumn leaves, rocks, sand, wildlife: the exquisite simplicity and intricacy of nature’s design – that’s my inspiration.”
srosenbach-duex@mahlum.com
Stephen Endy
“Wonderful buildings can inspire students to focus in school and improve our environment. But a design process, which integrates broad stakeholder input, helps build resilient communities around shared values – sustaining deep support and confidence for generations to achieve more.”
sendy@mahlum.com
Steven Schwaeber
“Architect – that is a title that has been granted to me by NCARB. It is often understood as a master builder, but I prefer to be known as a professional problem solver. I like the challenge of a complicated problem or situation, one that requires the combination of skill, intuition, and mental dexterity.”
sschwaeber@mahlum.com
Sunny Zhang
“Start a project by unlearning and don’t let preconception hinder the possibility, because our worst enemy is the known unknown.”
szhang@mahlum.com
Tim Meyers
“A dog person with two cats. An unrestricted draw to nature. A belief in the use of health, knowledge, and kindness to advance humanity.”
tmeyers@mahlum.com
Viagnehy Fernandez
“I’m continually working to improve my definition and understanding of what it means to be a good architect. Even though my priorities and interests may change, I’ll always look to work in a setting where people are committed to effecting a positive change in their communities.”
vfernandez@mahlum.com
Violette Yang
LEED GA
“I keep my eyes, ears and nose open to experiences and exploration. Sounds and smells, wind and light, moments, memories, feelings and stories of people coming and going – for those things we cannot speak about, architecture is the best language.”
vyang@mahlum.com
©2020 Mahlum Architects Inc. All rights reserved.
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Le Perray-en-Yvelines
French Version : http://www.cartesfrance.fr/carte-france-ville/78486_Le Perray-en-Yvelines.html
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City of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
The city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines is a french city located north central of France. The city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines is located in the department of Yvelines of the french region Île-de-France. The city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines is located in the township of Rambouillet part of the district of Rambouillet. The area code for Le Perray-en-Yvelines is 78486 (also known as code INSEE), and the Le Perray-en-Yvelines zip code is 78610.
Geography and map of Le Perray-en-Yvelines :
The altitude of the city hall of Le Perray-en-Yvelines is approximately 175 meters. The Le Perray-en-Yvelines surface is 13.47 km ². The latitude and longitude of Le Perray-en-Yvelines are 48.695 degrees North and 1.855 degrees East. Nearby cities and towns of Le Perray-en-Yvelines are : Auffargis (78610) at 2.49 km, Vieille-Église-en-Yvelines (78125) at 3.16 km, Les Bréviaires (78610) at 3.35 km, Les Essarts-le-Roi (78690) at 3.73 km, Rambouillet (78120) at 5.49 km, Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines (78610) at 7.04 km, Saint-Rémy-l'Honoré (78690) at 7.17 km, Les Mesnuls (78490) at 7.20 km.
(The distances to these nearby towns of Le Perray-en-Yvelines are calculated as the crow flies)
Population and housing of Le Perray-en-Yvelines :
The population of Le Perray-en-Yvelines was 5 839 in 1999, 6 388 in 2006 and 6 427 in 2007. The population density of Le Perray-en-Yvelines is 477.13 inhabitants per km². The number of housing of Le Perray-en-Yvelines was 2 699 in 2007. These homes of Le Perray-en-Yvelines consist of 2 554 main residences, 33 second or occasional homes and 112 vacant homes.
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Administrative Information of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Region : Île-de-France (11)
Departement : Yvelines (78)
District : Rambouillet
Township : Rambouillet
Area code : 78486
Nearby towns of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Here are maps and information of the close municipalities near Le Perray-en-Yvelines.
See all the towns of Yvelines (Distances are calculated as the crow flies)
Auffargis (78) at 2.49 km Vieille-Église-en-Yvelines (78) at 3.16 km
Les Bréviaires (78) at 3.35 km Les Essarts-le-Roi (78) at 3.73 km
Rambouillet (78) at 5.49 km Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines (78) at 7.04 km
Saint-Rémy-l'Honoré (78) at 7.17 km Les Mesnuls (78) at 7.20 km
Coignières (78) at 7.42 km Poigny-la-Forêt (78) at 7.67 km
Lévis-Saint-Nom (78) at 8.02 km Gazeran (78) at 8.65 km
Cernay-la-Ville (78) at 9.10 km Bazoches-sur-Guyonne (78) at 9.33 km
Maurepas (78) at 9.41 km Le Tremblay-sur-Mauldre (78) at 9.44 km
Senlisse (78) at 9.49 km Le Mesnil-Saint-Denis (78) at 9.60 km
Montfort-l'Amaury (78) at 9.72 km Dampierre-en-Yvelines (78) at 9.82 km
Geography of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Area : 13.47 km² (1 347 hectares)
Minimum altitude : 155 m
Maximum altitude : 179 m
Average altitude : 167 m
Altitude of the city hall : 175 m
Sexagesimal geographical coordinates (WGS84): Latitude: 48° 41' 39'' North
Longitude: 01° 51' 15'' East
Decimal geographical coordinates : Latitude: 48.695 degrees (48.695° North)
Longitude: 1.855 degrees (1.855° East)
Lambert 93 geographical coordinates : X: 6 157 hectometers
Y: 68 444 hectometers
Population and housings of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Inhabitants in 1999 : 5 839 inhabitants
Population data : Population Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Population density : 477.13 hab/km²
Variation of population density : +1.21 %/year
Housings in 1999 : 2 410 logements
Housings data : Housing Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Hotel Le Perray-en-Yvelines
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Guest accommodation : La maison du Fargis
Set in Auffargis in the Ile de France Region, 38 km from Paris, La maison du Fargis boasts a sun terrace and views of the garden. The rooms are fitted with a flat-screen TV. Ea...
Rate : from 59.00 € to 118.00 €
Address : 3, Rue de l'Etendoir 78610 Auffargis
Distance Guest accommodation - Le Perray-en-Yvelines : 2.25 km
Bed and Breakfast : Les Cailloux en Vallée de Chevreuse
Set in a farmhouse 7 km from Rambouillet Forest is Les Cailloux en Vallée de Chevreuse bed and breakfast. A continental breakfast is prepared every morning and free Wi-Fi is pro...
Price : from 65.00 € to 80.00 €
Contact : 22 route d'Auffargis 78125 Rambouillet
Distance Bed and Breakfast - Le Perray-en-Yvelines : 3.64 km
Guest accommodation : La Ferme des Vallées
Located 15 km from Rambouillet and surrounded by the countryside, this guest accommodation features a furnished terrace in the large garden. Free WiFi and free public parking ar...
Contact : Route de Cernay 78610 Auffargis
Hotel : Hotel St Charles
This hotel is located in Rambouillet, near the Chateau de Rambouillet in the Chevreuse region. It offers free on-site parking (on reservation) and rooms with free Wi-Fi. Each g...
Contact : 15 Rue De Groussay 78120 Rambouillet
Distance Hotel - Le Perray-en-Yvelines : 5.26 km
Hotel : Best Western Amarys Rambouillet
Situated half-way between Chartres and Versailles, Best Western Amarys Rambouillet is nestled in a quiet setting and features an outdoor swimming pool, open seasonally, and a te...
Price : from 67.15 € to 129.00 €
Address : 73 Rue De La Louviere 78120 Rambouillet
Guest accommodation : Les Viviales Rambouillet
This modern residence is located opposite the forest of Rambouillet and 3 km from Rambouillet Castle. The residence boasts a garden, a fitness room and free Wi-Fi. With flat-sc...
Prices : from 59.00 € to 166.00 €
Contact : 11 Rue de La Giroderie 78120 Rambouillet
Hotel : Mercure Rambouillet Relays Du Château
Located in the heart of Rambouillet, the hotel is set in a 17th-century coaching inn and offers air-conditioned rooms. It is just 50 metres from the château de Rambouillet and g...
Contact : 1 place de la Libération 78120 Rambouillet
Hotel : Abbaye Des Vaux De Cernay
Set on a 65-hectare park with a lake, this 12th-century abbey offers free access to the on-site tennis court. Rochefort Golf Club is located 12 km away. Guest rooms have a refi...
Price : from 130.00 € to 335.00 €
Contact : Route Auffargis 78720 Cernay-la-Ville
Hotel : Le Chene Pendragon
Le Chene Pendragon is a hotel located in Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines a 30-minute drive from Château de Versailles. It offers a garden and a restaurant with covered terrace as well a...
Address : 17 RUE DE LA CROIX BLANCHE 78610 Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines
Guest accommodation : La Maison d'Hotes de Saint Leger
Set in Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines, La Maison d'Hotes de Saint Leger provides a terrace. Providing a restaurant, the property also has a bar. Free WiFi is featured. All units in th...
Rate : from 80.00 €
Contact : 7 Bis Grande Rue 78610 Saint-Léger-en-Yvelines
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Map of Le Perray-en-Yvelines
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Photos Le Perray-en-Yvelines
Most popular and closest pictures of Le Perray-en-Yvelines town hall :
Les Étangs de St-Hubert (Pourras)
Photo taken : 05 Février 2007
Photographer : Tin Image
Photo of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring municipalities Pavillon en ruine
Picture taken : 07 Février 2007
Taken by : Tin Image
Picture of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or nearby towns
horreur boréale dans les Yvelines
Pic taken : 07 Décembre 2008
By : rv8427
Pic of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring towns Aurore ou crépuscule?
Date : 07 Décembre 2008
Photographer : rv8427
Photo of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or nearby municipalities
La mairie-école
Photo taken : 21 Octobre 2011
Photographer : fvexler
Photo of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring municipalities Le Perray en Yvelines
Taken by : Dora Tombacz
Ezeroto krai Lypere
Pic taken : 15 Mars 2009
By : Dian Bonev
Pic of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring towns Coucher de soleil parisien
Date : 27 Février 2007
Photographer : Skuair
Etang de Pourras - La maison ornithologique
Photo taken : 01 Mars 2008
Photographer : trouvephoto.com
Photo of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring municipalities Auffargis
Picture taken : 05 Juillet 2010
Taken by : gilbert92
Vieille Eglise (Yvelines) ; L'aqueduc [18/03/07]
Pic taken : 30 Novembre 2008
By : Pascal Saint-Lot
Pic of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring towns Le Perray-en-Yvelines Gare
Photographer : hpjps
Vieille-Eglise (Yvelines) ; La rigole plate [18/03/07]
Photo taken : 30 Novembre 2008
Photographer : Pascal Saint-Lot
Photo of the city of Le Perray-en-Yvelines or neighboring municipalities Vieille-Eglise (Yvelines) ; Aqueduc [18/03/07]
Picture taken : 30 Novembre 2008
Taken by : Pascal Saint-Lot
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Le Perray-en-Yvelines weather forecast
Find next hours and 7 days weather forecast for Le Perray-en-Yvelines here : weather Le Perray-en-Yvelines (with english metrics)
This is the last weather forecast for Le Perray-en-Yvelines collected by the nearest observation station of Rambouillet.
Week Forecast: Possible drizzle next Monday.
The latest weather data for Le Perray-en-Yvelines were collected Monday, 20 January 2020 at 09:51 from the nearest observation station of Rambouillet.
Temperature Max: 7°C Temperature Min: -0°C
Pressure: 1044.9 mbars
Precipitation Probability: 1% rain
Percentage of sky occluded by clouds: 6%
Wind speed: 4 km/h Sout-East
Wind Gust Speed: 12 km/h
Visibility: 16.093 km Humidity: 81%
Dew Point: -1° UV Index: 1
Precipitation Probability: 5% snow
Wind Gust Speed: 7 km/h
Wednesday, January 22nd
Percentage of sky occluded by clouds: 21%
Precipitation Probability: 10% rain
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Sam Houston State vs A&M-Corpus Christi (Apr 19, 2019)
The Automated ScoreBook
Sam Houston State at A&M-Corpus Christi (Game 1)
Apr 19, 2019 at Corpus Christi, TX (Chapman Field)
Sam Houston State 8 (24-19,15-4)
McDonald, Megan cf 2 2 1 0 1 0 0 0 0
Thompson, Tiffany ss 3 3 3 2 0 0 0 0 0
Malia, Brooke 2b 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kutac, Kyndal 3b 2 1 1 4 0 0 0 0 0
Goetz, Ashley 1b 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
Martinez, Kayte pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
White, Bailey c 3 0 1 0 0 0 14 0 0
Diaz, Alexandra pr 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fisher, Sheridan rf 3 0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0
Fuselier, Taylar dh 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Dunn, Regan pr 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Canada, Karlee lf 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
McLeod, Lindsey p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Totals 24 8 11 7 1 0 15 0 4
A&M-Corpus Christi 0 (8-36,3-17)
Moss,Ashley rf 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 1 0
Baker,Emilee lf 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0
Thomas,Sammi cf 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Johnson,Kennedy 1b 2 0 1 0 0 1 8 0 0
Burke,Samantha 2b 2 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 0
Sgambelluri,Ashleigh ss 2 0 0 0 0 2 2 3 0
Johnson,Kandace p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ruel,Alexis p 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 1
Wendel,Whitney c 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Silvas,Alyson c 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Koehl,Skye dh 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vela,Emily 3b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Totals 16 0 1 0 0 14 15 9 1
Score by Innings R H E
Sam Houston State... 420 11 - 8 11 0
A&M-Corpus Christi.. 000 00 - 0 1 2
E - Burke,Samant(8); Vela,Emily(10). LOB - Sam Houston 4; AMCC 1. 2B - Kutac, K.(4). 3B - Thompson, T.(2). HR - Thompson, T.(4). HBP - Malia, B.. SF - Kutac, K.(2). SB - Malia, B.(2); Dunn, R.(4). CS - Dunn, R.(2).
Sam Houston State ip h r er bb so wp bk hbp ibb ab bf fo go
McLeod, Lindsey W,15-7 5.0 1 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 0 16 16 1 0
A&M-Corpus Christi ip h r er bb so wp bk hbp ibb ab bf fo go
Johnson,Kandace L,7-12 1.0 5 4 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 8 2 1
Ruel,Alexis 4.0 6 4 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 16 19 3 7
Win - McLeod, L. (15-7). Loss - Johnson,Kand (7-12). Save - None. WP - Ruel,Alexis(7). HBP - by Ruel,Alexis (Malia, B.).
Umpires - HP: Sal Jaramillo 1B: Terri Peters 3B: Gwendolyn Boudreau
Weather: Sunny, 80s, wind to center
Sam Houston State starters: 9/cf McDonald, M.; 6/ss Thompson, T.; 14/2b Malia, B.; 12/3b Kutac, K.; 10/1b Goetz, A.; 18/c White, B.; 22/rf Fisher, S.; 2/dh Fuselier, T.; 7/lf Canada, K.; 21/p McLeod, L.;
A&M-Corpus Christi starters: 3/rf Moss,Ashley; 5/lf Baker,Emilee; 33/cf Thomas,Sammi; 9/1b Johnson,Kenn; 32/2b Burke,Samant; 10/ss Sgambelluri,; 21/p Johnson,Kand; 15/c Wendel,Whitn; 22/dh Koehl,Skye; 17/3b Vela,Emily;
Sam Houston State 1st - McDonald, M. singled through the right side. Thompson, T. singled to first base; McDonald, M. advanced to second. Malia, B. singled to pitcher; Thompson, T. advanced to second; McDonald, M. advanced to third. Kutac, K. doubled through the left side, 3 RBI; Malia, B. scored; Thompson, T. scored; McDonald, M. scored. Goetz, A. popped up to 2b. White, B. flied out to rf. Fisher, S. singled to left field, advanced to second on the throw; Kutac, K. advanced to third, scored on an error by 2b, unearned. Fuselier, T. grounded out to ss. 4 runs, 5 hits, 1 error, 1 LOB.
A&M-Corpus Christi 1st - Moss,Ashley struck out swinging. Baker,Emilee struck out swinging. Thomas,Sammi struck out swinging. 0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
Sam Houston State 2nd - Ruel,Alexis to p for Johnson,Kand. Canada, K. grounded out to p. McDonald, M. walked. Thompson, T. tripled to left center, RBI; McDonald, M. scored. Malia, B. hit by pitch. Malia, B. stole second. Kutac, K. flied out to lf, SF, RBI; Thompson, T. scored. Goetz, A. grounded out to ss. 2 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, 1 LOB.
A&M-Corpus Christi 2nd - Johnson,Kenn struck out swinging. Burke,Samant struck out looking. Sgambelluri, struck out swinging. 0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
Sam Houston State 3rd - White, B. fouled out to 1b. Fisher, S. grounded out to p. Fuselier, T. singled up the middle. Dunn, R. pinch ran for Fuselier, T.. Dunn, R. out at second c to ss, caught stealing, interference. 0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
A&M-Corpus Christi 3rd - Ruel,Alexis struck out swinging. Wendel,Whitn struck out swinging. Koehl,Skye popped up to 1b. 0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
Sam Houston State 4th - Canada, K. singled through the right side, out at first rf to 1b. McDonald, M. grounded out to ss. Thompson, T. homered to center field, RBI. Malia, B. grounded out to 3b. 1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
A&M-Corpus Christi 4th - Moss,Ashley struck out swinging. Baker,Emilee struck out swinging. Thomas,Sammi struck out swinging. 0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, 0 LOB.
Sam Houston State 5th - Silvas,Alyso to c for Wendel,Whitn. Kutac, K. grounded out to c unassisted. Goetz, A. reached on an error by 3b. Martinez, K. pinch ran for Goetz, A.. Martinez, K. advanced to second on a wild pitch. White, B. singled through the left side; Martinez, K. advanced to third. Diaz, A. pinch ran for White, B.. Fisher, S. singled, bunt, RBI; Diaz, A. advanced to second; Martinez, K. scored. Dunn, R. reached on a fielder's choice; Fisher, S. out at second 2b to ss; Diaz, A. advanced to third. Dunn, R. stole second. Canada, K. popped up to 2b. 1 run, 2 hits, 1 error, 2 LOB.
A&M-Corpus Christi 5th - Goetz, A. to 1b for Martinez, K.. White, B. to c for Diaz, A.. Johnson,Kenn singled to right center. Burke,Samant struck out swinging. Sgambelluri, struck out swinging. Ruel,Alexis struck out swinging. 0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, 1 LOB.
Sam Houston State 8, A&M-Corpus Christi 0 (Apr 19, 2019 at Corpus Christi, TX) (Game 1)
Sam Houston State... 420 11 - 8 11 0 (24-19, 15-4)
A&M-Corpus Christi.. 000 00 - 0 1 2 (8-36, 3-17)
Pitchers: Sam Houston State - McLeod, Lindsey and White, Bailey. A&M-Corpus Christi -
Johnson,Kandace; Ruel,Alexis(2) and Wendel,Whitney; Silvas,Alyson.
Win-McLeod, Lindsey(15-7) Loss-Johnson,Kandace(7-12) T-1:25 A-115
HR SHSU - Thompson, Tiffany (4).
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TENET - General Information/Discussion/Speculation - Page 199 - Nolan Fans
TENET - General Information/Discussion/Speculation
Lt Aldo Raine
Any thoughts on whether this “international espionage” thriller will revolve around agents of particular intelligence agencies? It’s interesting that of the announced cast we have four Brits and only one American, meanwhile much of the shoot locations are around Europe.
Does this point to a narrative focused on British intelligence and MI6? While John D. Washington doesn’t necessarily have to be playing an American, is he likely to be a CIA agent?
May 26th, 2019, 3:47 am
Would Nolan use real world organizations like that, though?
I kind of hope not.
Pratham
Insomniac wrote: ↑
He's a goofball though. We called him CIA Douche for a reason.
I don’t see why not? Nolan likes to ground his films in reality. NASA was used in Interstellar and I much prefer that to a fictional alternative.
Nolan tends to be terrified of politics in his movies. I just can't see him making a movie where heroic CIA-agents save the day. I also can't see this film being a realistic spy movie in any way. I don't even know what realistic spying entails in 2019.
DHOPW42
Joined: January 2009
I also don't think it will be an existing organization - I suspect a fictional one like Cobol in Inception. Although, NASA is featured heavily in Interstellar. And as for politics, I think The Dark Knight is quite politically charged.
Nolan tends to be terrified of politics in his movies.
What? TDK and TDKR both had political themes. How did you manage miss that?
Demoph
TDK and TDKR have very very interesting subtext, but you can also enjoy the film without paying attention to it.
I would love the film to deal with real issues, and not just in its subtext.
I remember reading Alex Rider: Snakehead from Anthony Horowitz, where the story dealt with the cynicism of foreign politics, immigration, the commerce of organs (one of the very worst thing in the world, though we almost never talk about it).
I would prefer if the heroes are trying to stop the mafia from making money on immigration/selling organs/selling guns to terrorists... than if they are trying to stop someone before he throws a bomb on New-York...
Pratham wrote: ↑
I get the feeling that was more Jonah's thing. Both the surveillance stuff in TDK and the "down with the corrupt elite establishment" class stuff in TDKR.
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Published by The Nordic Society Oikos.
Submitted by Tina on 8 May 2018.
The fig family (Moraceae) has fascinated botanists for generations. The family shows an extraordinary diversity in flower form and mode of pollination. We recently examined the reproductive biology of two highly unusual and poorly known relatives of the fig: Dorstenia contrajerva, native to Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean and South America, and D. lujae, native to tropical Africa. Our paper (NJB-01832) describes the floral biology of these elusive species which, along with other fig relatives, may provide novel insights into how their relative, the fig, may have evolved.
The poorly known genus Dorstenia has a remarkable diversity of floral forms, such as D. acangatara (top left) native to Brazil (photo by Anderson FP Machado), D. lujae (bottom left) native to Africa, and D. gigas, a succulent tree native to Socotra Island in Yemen (photo by Tracy Misiewicz).
The fig family contains several economically and ecologically important plants such as the fig (Ficus), mulberry (Morus) and breadfruit (Artocarpus). Figs are also among the earliest domesticated crops and have been cultivated for over 11,000 years. The biology of most relatives of the fig remains completely unexplored and could offer insight into the evolution of these economically and ecologically important plants.
Although data on obscure, tropical fig relatives is lacking, there have been extensive studies into the reproductive biology of the fig itself. Figs are intimately associated with specific species of wasp, with which they have evolved together for at least 60 million years. The familiar fig is, botanically speaking, actually a syconium – an infolded structure within which the tiny flowers are enclosed, which never see the light of day. Fig wasps (Agaonidae: Hymenoptera) crawl into the fig through a tight passageway called an ostiole, into a central cavity where the flowers are produced. They carry pollen from another fig and fertilise some of the tiny flowers, whilst laying their eggs in others. Flowers which receive an egg develop a gall which the wasps’ grubs feed on; meanwhile flowers which receive pollen develop seeds. Emergent wingless male wasps mate with winged females, which collect pollen as they crawl around the inside of the fig; the fertilised and pollen-laden female wasps then bite their way out, and fly off to find new figs to lay their eggs in.
Our hypothesis that Dorstenia may be reminiscent of an intermediate form in the evolution of this fascinating fig-fig wasp symbiosis is corroborated by a fascinating recent observation, by scientists, of flies laying eggs in the Dorstenia flowers. This exciting observation adds weight to the hypothesis that egg-laying by insects is a common trait that predated the origin of the intimate fig-wasp association that has now become a textbook example of co-evolution.
Cross section diagrams of poorly known living fig relatives Dorstenia (left) and Antiaropsis (centre) which may be reminiscent of intermediate forms in the evolutionary pathway that led to the fig syconium (right) – a highly complex and unusual structure that is intimately associated with pollinating fig-wasps.
Chris Thorogood (author) is Head of Science and Public Engagement for the University of Oxford Botanic Garden and Arboretum. Chris’s research interests centre on evolutionary genetics, plant taxonomy and biodiversity hotspots. Specifically he is interested in speciation and adaptive radiations in cryptic parasitic and carnivorous plant groups, as well as taxonomic diversity in biodiversity hotspots including the Mediterranean Basin region and Japan. Chris won a scholarship in 2005 to carry out his PhD research on speciation in parasitic plants at the University of Bristol for which he won the Irene Manton Prize for botany in 2009; Chris is a Fellow of the Linnean Society of London.
Book Review of Ascomycota Syllabus of Plant Families 1/2
Kuepferia species in Himalaya
Methods for obtaining more complete species lists in surveys of lichen biodiversity
Book review - The Fungi
Discovery of a new species of wintergreen plant from Sichuan Province, China
Effects of wild boar rooting on wildflower populations
Conservation benefits of mowing vs. grazing in semi-natural grasslands
NJB invites new contributions
Invasive plant species in the Swedish flora: criteria for assessing the invasiveness of individual taxa
NJB February issue open to read
Free access to December issue of NJB
DATA PUBLICATION IN DRYAD SPONSORED
NJB most cited papers 2013
Editor in Chief: shorter handling times at NJB
Dust seeds, orchids from two different continents and pollination in S-shaped flower heads – read in latest issue of NJB
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Blue Medora Expands Partnership With VMware
Blue Medora, a provider of enterprise cloud and datacenter management solutions, is releasing its True Visibility Suite will as a third-party product available as part of the VMware vCloud Air Network Program. The True Visibility Suite’s expanded availability to the vCloud Air Network Program makes it only the second third-party solution in the program. “More than 80% of the Fortune 1000 have VMware environments, but no two look alike. Many of them are turning to our vCloud Air Network provider partners to migrate to the cloud as quickly and affordably as possible,” said Geoff Waters, vice president of Cloud Sales, VMware. “Adding the True Visibility Suite to our validated offerings for partners enables IT operations teams to manage their unique heterogeneous, hybrid cloud environment as a single stack.”
Link to article in Database Trends and Applications
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Home > FAQs > What is an Education, Health and Care (EHC) Needs Assessment?
An Education Health and Care (EHC) Needs Assessment is a detailed look at:
the special educational needs of a child or young person
what your child can and cannot do
the support he or she may need in order to learn
It includes information from:
the early years setting or school
other professionals who work with or support your child
The Assessment will look at whether your child needs an Education, Health and Care plan (EHCP).
What is an EHC Plan?
An Education, Health and Care Plan is:
for children and young people (aged up to 25)
who need more support than is available through special educational needs support
EHC Plans identify educational, health and social needs. They set out the additional support to meet those needs.
The EHC plan puts children, young people and families at the very centre of the process. It makes sure that their views are not only heard, but also understood. The EHCP planning process uses person centered planning. This helps families feel that they are more in control.
An EHC plan is based on coordinated assessments from all of the services involved with your child or young person. The plans focus on outcomes. The plan states how services will work together to meet the needs of your child or young person.
Young people and families have helped to design the plan that we are using. So far people are saying:
We feel more listened to
We feel more involved in the decision-making for our child in ways that make sense to us
When should a referral for an EHC Assessment be made?
The majority of children and young people with special educational needs can be provided for from:
resources normally available in school
The Local Offer will ensure that families and practitioners can find out what is available. This helps everyone to make the most of services offered in schools and in the community.
Where provision cannot reasonably be provided through services that are normally available, it may be necessary to apply for an EHC Needs Assessment.
It is usually best for families to talk to their child’s school, education provider or a professional working with their child before a request is made. Education providers and professionals who are familiar with the family should be able to help the family to decide whether an assessment is needed.
When a request is made it really helps those making the decision to know why the family think an assessment is needed. It also helps to have good information about the journey for the child so far. There are questions on the request form that help to gather this information.
Sometimes families may find it helpful to talk to Special Educational Needs and Disability, Information and Support Service (SENDIASS). or other voluntary support services when a request for an EHC Needs Assessment is being considered.
Parents and young people over 16 years have the right to request an EHC Needs Assessment independently.
Early years providers, schools, colleges and other bodies can also request assessments. But they can only do this with the knowledge and agreement of the parent or young person (where this is possible).
How EHC planning works
Our EHCP process diagram [PDF, 96.5Kb] provides details about the assessment process and timescales. If a plan is agreed, it will be reviewed every year although parts of the plan can be reviewed more frequently.
The plan will stay in place until it is no longer needed. It can stay in place until the age of 25.
How are families supported?
Support and advice is available throughout the process from the Special Educational Needs and Disability, Information and Support Service (SENDIASS).
EHC Plan documents
When a new Education, Health and Care Plan is required, a range of documents have been developed to gather information in the Assessment process. These will be used when writing the Plan.
The school or educational/early years provider will complete a referral form EHCP Referral form [PDF, 310Kb]. This will be discussed with parents and professionals. Possibly at a person-centred review meeting before sending to the local authority. This form will include information to help the local authority decide if an Assessment is necessary. A Guidance booklet for schools and education settings gives advice on completing a referral form.
The local authority will also seek information from the local heath authority who will complete an advice form EHCP Health advice [PDF, 223Kb]. They will also ask social care services for advice EHCP Care advice [PDF, 190Kb]. Both will contribute to the Assessment.
On completion of the Assessment, if a decision is made to issue an EHCP, a draft Education, Health and Care Plan will be produced. The local authority’s Template for the Plan [PDF, 105Kb] details assessment advice and support arrangements.
The Plan can be more personalised with names/pictures/images as determined by the young person or parent.
Animations to help explain the EHCP Process and Person Centred Connection
With support from the Department for Education, Independent Support has produced two short animation films. These can be used by local authorities, IAS services, IS agencies, professionals and parent groups in their communications with parents and young people.
The purpose of the two animations is to help explain the EHCP process and its important relationship with the Person Centred Connection.
The majority of cases will be discussed at the Special Educational Needs and Disability Panel (SENDAP). This is a multi-agency panel (with representatives invited from education, health and care).
It meets on a weekly basis to consider and make recommendations in relation to EHC needs assessment requests and outcomes.
The panel makes recommendations regarding cases. Although the local authority is responsible for decision making in relation to EHC needs assessments and outcomes.
Reviewing an EHC Plan
EHC plans must be reviewed by the local authority every 12 months as a minimum. Reviews must focus on the child or young person’s progress towards achieving the outcomes specified in the EHC plan.
Following the review meeting, the local authority will notify the child’s parent or the young person of the outcome. This will be within four weeks of the review meeting.
More information on reviewing an EHC plan can be found in chapter 9 of the SEND Code of Practice.
It is important that young people start to think about their aspirations as early as possible. Local authorities must ensure that the EHC plan review at Year 9 (and every review thereafter) includes a focus on preparation for adulthood.
Transition planning must be built into the revised EHC plan. It should result in clear outcomes being agreed that are ambitious and stretching. This should follow consideration of any further education or training that will enable young people to:
get paid work
or other opportunities for a positive adult life
Young people should be supported to exercise choice and control over their lives. This includes the four ‘preparing for adulthood’ outcomes:
moving into paid employment and higher education
having friends and relationships and being part of their communities
being as healthy as possible
More information on the four ‘preparing for adulthood’ outcomes can be found in chapter 8 of the SEND Code of Practice and the Preparing for Adulthood website. Take a look at the Preparing for Adulthood section of this website too.
Ceasing EHC Plans
A local authority may cease to maintain an EHC plan if it determines that:
it is no longer necessary for the plan to be maintained
or if it is no longer responsible for the child or young person
Where a local authority is considering ceasing to maintain an EHC Plan, it must consult with:
the child’s parent
or the young person
and the school or other institution that is named in the EHC plan
Young People over 19 with EHC Plans
In line with preparing young people for adulthood, a local authority must not cease an EHC plan simply because a young person is aged 19 or over. Young people with EHC plans may need longer in education or training to achieve their outcomes and make an effective transition into adulthood.
However, this position does not mean that there is an automatic entitlement to continued support at age 19. Or an expectation that those with an EHC plan should all remain in education until age 25.
A local authority may cease a plan for a 19 to 25-year-old if it decides that it is no longer necessary for the EHC plan to be maintained.
More information and guidance on EHCPs beyond the age of 19 can be found in the SEND 19-25 year olds entitlement to EHC plans
Young people over compulsory school age have the right to participate in decisions about the provision that is made for them.
However, some young people will not have the mental capacity to make certain decisions. Under the Children and Families Act, lacking mental capacity has the same meaning as in the Mental Capacity Act 2005. In cases where a person lacks mental capacity to make a particular decision, that decision will be taken by a representative on their behalf.
Further information can be found in the SEND Code of Practice.
Also see the Preparation for Adulthood leaflet – Mental Capacity Act and Supported Decision Making [PDF, 517Kb]
Further useful documents
EHCP process diagram [PDF, 96.5Kb]
EHC-Assessment[PDF, 1.29Kb]
EHCP Referral Form [PDF, 309Kb]
Social Care advice for EHC Assessments Form [Doc 203Kb]
Health advice for EHC Assessments Form [Doc, 137Kb]
EHC Guidance for Schools and Education Providers [PDF, 341Kb]
Developing Outcomes [PDF, 79.3Kb]
Hints and Tips for EHCP [PDF, 22Kb]
EHC Plan template [PDF, 294Kb]
EHC Plan Annual Review [PDF, 137Kb]
Annual Review Guidance [PDF, 147Kb]
Developing Outcomes Graphic Poster [PDF, 668Kb]
The video above uses sign language to explain what an Education, Health and Care plan is? This video was created by the NCDS.
This animation video has been co-produced with our children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities from a range of schools in North Lincolnshire
What are Education, Health and Care plans? Watch the video.
What is person centered planning? Watch the video.
SEND Team, Hewson House, Station Road, Brigg DN20 8XJ
special.needssection@northlincs.gov.uk
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Molecular Vision 2000; 6:15-23 <http://www.molvis.org/molvis/v6/a4/>
Received 20 January 2000 | Accepted 24 February 2000 | Published 7 March 2000 Download
Extracellular matrix components in retrocorneal fibrous membrane in comparison to corneal endothelium and Descemet's membrane
Eamon W. Leung,1 Lawrence Rife,1 Ronald E. Smith,1,2 EunDuck P. Kay1,2
1Doheny Eye Institute and 2Department of Ophthalmology, Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Correspondence to: EunDuck P. Kay, D.D.S., Ph. D., Doheny Eye Institute, 1450 San Pablo Street DVRC #203, Los Angeles, CA, 90033; Phone: (213) 342-6625; FAX: (213) 342-6688; email: ekay@hsc.usc.edu
Purpose: To investigate the extracellular matrix macromolecules found in Descemet's membrane and in retrocorneal fibrous membrane (RCFM), and to examine whether the corneal endothelium has the capacity to produce both basement and non-basement membrane phenotypes.
Methods: Rabbit corneas with and without RCFM were analyzed by immunofluorescence using antibodies to 8 different collagens (basement membrane collagens: types IV and VIII; fibrillar collagens: types I and III; interfibrillar collagens: type VI and two spliced variant forms of type XII and one anchoring fiber: type VII), proteoglycans (perlecan and decorin), big-h3 and laminin-1.
Results: Normal corneal endothelium stains positively for all of the tested collagen types except type VII collagen. On the other hand, Descemet's membrane reacts positively only to the type IV collagen antibody. When non-collagenous components in normal cornea were examined, corneal endothelium stained positively for perlecan, decorin, big-h3 and laminin, whereas Descemet's membrane staining for these proteins was negative. When collagenous components of RCFM were examined, RCFM stained positively for all of the tested collagen types except type IV collagen. When non-collagneous components of RCFM were examined, RCFM demonstrated a strong positive staining with decorin, big-h3 and laminin, while perlecan staining was weak.
Conclusions: These observations suggest that corneal endothelium is able to produce both basement membrane phenotypes and non-basement membrane, fibrillar phenotypes. This in vivo study confirms our in vitro model of endothelial mesenchymal transformation, in which corneal endothelial cells are transformed to fibroblasts that are responsible for fibrosis.
The retrocorneal fibrous membrane (RCFM), first described by Fuchs in 1901 [1], has been observed in various clinical conditions associated with disease and damage to the corneal endothelium [2-4]. The presence of RCFM posterior to the preexisting Descemet's membrane (DM) is thought to represent an end-stage disease process of the corneal endothelium that results in functional alterations of the corneal endothelium, leading to corneal opacity and blindness. Our earlier study demonstrated that fibroblasts isolated from RCFM synthesized and secreted type I collagen, the major constituent of RCFM [5]. To determine the origin of the fibroblasts present within this membrane, we established an in vitro model, which demonstrated that corneal endothelial cells (CEC) undergo endothelial mesenchymal transformation by the action of fibroblast growth factor 2 (FGF-2) and a protein factor released by polymorphonuclear leukocytes [6-9]. As a consequence of this transformation, the transformed CEC produce type I collagen, the major component of the fibrillar extracellular matrix.
An understanding of the corneal endothelium/Descemet's membrane complex, including physiologic functions, transparency, and hydration, as well as disorders such as wound healing and some dystrophies, requires a fundamental knowledge of extracellular matrices. Despite the fact that the presence of RCFM in clinical conditions has long been known, a systematic evaluation regarding the composition of extracellular matrix in RCFM is essentially nonexistent. Furthermore, the evaluation of extracellular matrix proteins in DM has focused predominantly on type IV collagen and laminin, the major constituents of the basement membrane. In recent years, it has been known that the corneal endothelium is able to synthesize fibrillar collagens, such as type I collagen, and that these fibrillar collagens are subsequently destroyed inside the cell [10]. This unexpected observation suggests the complexity of the cellular activity of the corneal endothelium and further suggests that those collagens that are synthesized by the corneal endothelium are not necessarily coincidental to the components of DM. An elucidation of the biochemical composition of the matrices is fundamental to an understanding of corneal function and its pathobiology. In this report, we determined the extracellular matrix proteins present in the corneal endothelium, DM, and RCFM, including a variety of collagen types, proteoglycans, and laminin.
Production of RCFM
This procedure was performed as described previously [5]. In brief, 8-week-old New Zealand white rabbits were used for all experiments. Animals were sedated with ketamine, and anesthesia was induced with intravenous sodium pentobarbital administered through an ear vein. Proparacaine solution (Alcaine: Alcon Laboratory, Inc., Ft. Worth, TX) was applied topically to the cornea, and a lid speculum was inserted. Transcorneal freezing was performed with an Alcon surgical cryostat unit (DNE-300 U) using nitrous oxide with a probe temperature of -80 °C. The 2.5 mm probe was first applied to the midcornea for 30 sec. The superior, inferior, temporal, and nasal corneal quadrants were then frozen in a similar manner, with slight overlap of the central application spot. After the procedure, atropine and gentamicin sulfate (Garamycin; Schering Corp., Kenilworth, NJ) were instilled in each eye. The freezing procedure was performed at evenly spaced biweekly intervals for four sessions. The animals were followed by external eye examination and slit-lamp microscopy and were sacrificed 1 week after the final cryoapplication. At least one eye per cryoapplication group was examined histologically to determine whether there was contamination by corneal keratocytes. Corneas from normal animals were used in comparison studies. All experiments were conducted in accordance with the ARVO Statement for the Use of Animals in Ophthalmic and Vision Research and were approved by the University of Southern California Animal Care and Use Committee.
Fresh rabbit corneas and corneas containing RCFM were fixed with 3.5% formalin, paraffin-embedded, and then cut in 5 mm-thick sections onto slides. The slides were heated at 60 °C for 1 h and then deparaffinized through three 2-min changes each of xylene, absolute alcohol, and 95% ethanol. Tissues were then rinsed in 0.1 M phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) for 2 min. In some cases, freshly removed rabbit corneas were embedded in OCT compound (Miles, Elkhart, IN) followed by freezing in liquid nitrogen. Eight mm sections were cut on a Cryocut 1800 (Reichert-Jung, West Germany) and collected on glass slides coated with polylysine.
All washes and incubations were carried out in PBS at room temperature. Tissue sections were treated with buffer A (1% bovine serum albumin [BSA], 0.1% Triton X-100 in PBS) for 15 min at room temperature. Tissues were incubated with primary antibody (1:10 dilution in buffer A) for 1 h at 37 °C in a moist chamber, then washed with PBS. Tissues were next incubated with fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC)-conjugated secondary antibody (1:100 dilution in buffer A) for 45 min at room temperature. Following extensive washes, antibody labeling was examined using a Zeiss LSM 210 laser scanning confocal microscope equipped with a barrier filter for fluorescein epi fluorescence. A plan-neofluar x40 (N.A. 1.3) oil immersion objective lens was used for imaging of fluorescently labeled tissues. Image analysis was performed using the standard system operating software provided with the Zeiss LSM microscope (Version 2.08). Color photomicrographs were taken using a Sony printer connected to the video output of the microscope.
The following antibodies were used: goat anti-type I collagen antibody (Chemicon International Inc., Temecula, CA); sheep anti-type III collagen antibody (a gift from Edward MacCarak, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA); monoclonal mouse anti-type IV collagen antibody and monoclonal mouse anti-type XII (long form and short form) antibodies (gifts from Dr. Nirmala SundarRaj, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA); monoclonal mouse anti-type VI collagen antibody (a gift from Eva Engvall, The Burnham Institute, La Jolla, CA); monoclonal mouse anti-type VII collagen antibody (a gift from Robert Burgeson, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA); monoclonal mouse anti-type VIII collagen antibody (Seikagaku America, Inc, Ijamsville, MD); monoclonal mouse anti-perlecan antibody (Zymed Laboratories Inc., South San Francisco, CA); sheep anti-decorin antibody (United States Biological, Swampscott, MA); chicken anti-big-h3 antibody (a gift from Charles Cintron, Schepens Eye Institute, Boston, MA); goat anti-laminin antibody (a gift from Dr. Yoshihiko Yamada, NIH, Bethesda, MD). FITC-conjugated donkey antibody against goat IgG, FITC-conjugated rabbit antibody against chicken IgG, FITC-conjugated donkey antibody against sheep IgG, and FITC-conjugated goat antibody against mouse IgG were purchased from Vector Laboratories Inc (Burlingame, CA).
Data Presentation
Negative controls for all experiments were stained in the absence of the primary antibody in parallel. In some cases, we further examined negative controls using FITC-conjugated secondary antibodies made in different species from the primary antibody. The routinely performed specificity controls were negative in all experiments; therefore, some of these were not shown. The phase-contrast micrographs were also examined in parallel to the immunohistochemical analysis in all experiments and representative phase-contrast micrographs were shown in Figure 1A,D. The data are representative of 2-4 immunohistochemical analyses per antibody staining.
In situ collagen types in corneal endothelium/Descemet's membrane and RCFM
Light micrographs of corneal endothelium, DM, and RCFM were analyzed using hematoxylin and eosin staining (data not shown): tissue integrity was confirmed in all tissues and the RCFMs were highly cellular, as observed previously [5]. Phase-contrast micrographs showed the integrity of the tissues in corneal endothelium, DM and RCFM (Figure 1A,D). Phase-contrast micrographs were not shown for the subsequent experiments, since the tissue morphologies were very similar to those shown in Figure 1A,D. The staining pattern of type IV collagen, a major basement membrane collagen type, was examined: antibody against type IV collagen, composed of a1(IV) and a2(IV), strongly stained both DM and corneal endothelium (Figure 1C). Control tissues stained in the absence of the primary antibody showed negative staining in corneal endothelium and DM (Figure 1B) and RCFM (Figure 1E). The RCFM-containing cornea showed positive staining with the anti-type IV collagen antibody in DM (Figure 1F). On the other hand, the stromal tissue anterior to DM and the RCFM tissue posterior to DM were not stained with anti-type IV collagen antibody (Figure 1F). The staining pattern for type VIII collagen, another major basement membrane collagen, was also determined: anti-type VIII collagen antibody strongly stained corneal endothelium but not DM (Figure 2B). Interestingly, keratocytes in the corneal stroma showed a positive reaction to the antibody (Figure 2B). Although RCFM tissue showed positive staining with the antibody, the same antibody did not stain DM in between RCFM and the corneal stroma (Figure 2D). Omission of the primary antibody removed the staining potential from corneal endothelium, DM and RCFM (Figure 2A,C).
Our previous studies, using immunohistochemical and biochemical analysis, showed that type I collagen is synthesized by CEC but is not secreted into the DM [10]. Type XII collagen, a member of the fibril-associated collagen with interrupted triple-helices (FACIT), is also reported to be present in corneal endothelium but not in the DM [11]. Therefore, we examined in situ collagen types that involve collagen fibril formation. The in vivo localization of type I collagen in corneal endothelium, as previously reported [10], was confirmed; the corneal endothelium was stained with anti-type I collagen antibody, whereas the underlying DM demonstrated no staining (Figure 3B). In contrast, RCFM tissue showed a strong positive reaction to the anti-type I collagen antibody, whereas DM anterior to RCFM was not stained with the antibody (Figure 3D). Control tissues stained in the absence of the primary antibodies showed no staining in these tissues (Figure 3A,C). When in vivo localization of type III collagen was examined, the corneal endothelium showed a faint positive reaction with anti-type III collagen antibody, while the underlying DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 4B). On the other hand, RCFM showed a strong positive reaction and DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 4D). The negative controls demonstrated no staining in the absence of the primary antibodies (Figure 4A,C).
Type XII collagen, which is known to be associated with collagen fibrils [12-14], is expressed in at least two alternatively spliced variant forms consisting of 340-kDa (long form) and 220-kDa (short form) chains [15,16]. The staining profiles of the two-splice variant forms of type XII collagen were analyzed using respective antibodies (2E4 antibody for long variant form and 3C7 antibody for short variant form). Although corneal endothelium reacted with the 2E4 antibody, the underlying DM did not react (Figure 5B); and the staining profile of long variant form of type XII collagen is identical to the published data [11]. RCFM tissue showed a faint positive staining with the antibody, while the anterior DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 5D). The corneal stroma demonstrated a faint positive staining with the antibody (Figure 5B,D). The negative controls performed in the absence of the primary antibody showed no staining with the antibody in corneal endothelium, DM, or RCFM (data not shown). We employed another set of negative control experiments in which we used FITC-conjugated secondary antibodies made in different species from the primary antibody: in Figure 5A and Figure 5C, none of the three tissues (endothelium, DM and RCFM) was stained by this procedure. When the short variant form of type XII collagen was examined, the staining profiles were similar to those of the long variant form of type XII collagen. Corneal endothelium reacted strongly with the antibody, but the underlying DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 6B). The corneal stroma was faintly stained with the antibody. RCFM showed a positive reaction with the antibody, while DM in between RCFM and corneal stroma did not react with the antibody (Figure 6D). The corneal stroma demonstrated a faint positive staining with the antibody (Figure 6B,D). The negative controls showed no staining in the absence of the primary antibodies (Figure 6A,C).
Type VI collagen, forming beaded filaments, is abundant in the mature stroma and type VII collagen, forming the anchoring fibrils, is present as an epithelial attachment complex. Although there has been no report of these collagens in DM, their in vivo localization in the corneal endothelium, DM, and RCFM was examined to determine whether corneal endothelium is able to produce these collagens as it does fibrillar collagens. Corneal endothelium reacted strongly with anti-type VI collagen antibody, but the underlying DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 7B). RCFM and the corneal stroma reacted strongly with the antibody (Figure 7D). The staining pattern of the negative controls was negligible (Figure 7A,C). On the other hand, none of these tissues (endothelium, DM and RCFM) reacted with anti-type VII collagen antibody (Figure 7E,F), while the corneal stroma showed a faint positive staining with the antibody. The negative controls demonstrated no staining (data not shown).
In situ localization of non-collagenous extracellular matrix macromolecules in corneal endothelium, Descemet's membrane, and RCFM
Immunohistological analysis of proteoglycans (perlecan as a basement membrane component and decorin as a non-member of basement membrane) in corneal endothelium, DM and RCFM showed that the perlecan antibody reacted primarily with the corneal endothelium, while the underlying DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 8B), when compared to the staining intensity of the negative controls (Figure 8A). RCFM showed positive reaction with the antibody (Figure 8D) and the negative controls showed no staining (Figure 8C). On the other hand, the decorin antibody strongly stained corneal endothelium but did not stain DM (Figure 9B). RCFM strongly reacted with the decorin antibody, whereas the anterior and posterior borders of DM showed a faint reaction with the antibody (Figure 9D). The corneal stroma demonstrated a strong positive staining with the antibody (Figure 9D). Control tissues stained in the absence of the primary antibodies showed no staining in corneal endothelium, DM or RCFM (Figure 9A,C). The protein big-h3 has been found in the ECM of the cornea, where it appears to be associated with several different types of collagens [17-19]. We examined the in situ localization of big-h3 in corneal endothelium, the underlying DM and RCFM. Corneal endothelium strongly reacted with the anti-big-h3 antibody but DM did not react with the antibody (Figure 10B). RCFM, on the other hand, was stained with the antibody, whereas the anterior DM was not stained (Figure 10D). Keratocytes in the corneal stroma showed a positive staining with big-h3 antibody (Figure 10B). Negative controls demonstrated no staining (Figure 10A,C). When the in situ localization of laminin-1 was examined, corneal endothelium was stained with anti-laminin-1 antibody, but the underlying DM was not stained with the antibody (Figure 11B). It is of interest that RCFM, the stromal keratocytes, the stromal side of DM, and the posterior borders of DM adjacent to RCFM were all strongly stained with the antibody (Figure 11D). Negative controls showed no positive staining (Figure 11A,C).
Descemet's membrane is a specialized matrix that separates the corneal endothelium and the stromal matrix. This membrane is called the basement membrane of the corneal endothelium because of its location and ultrastructral appearance. Unlike other basement membranes, which are predominantly composed of laminin and type IV collagen, DM contains mostly type VIII collagen in addition to type IV collagen [20-23]. When a cornea is exposed to a variety of insults, the corneal endothelium can heal by forming a scar, clinically called RCFM [1-3,24,25]. This pathological membrane consists of fibrous ECM and elongated cells that are responsible for the fibrillar phenotypes. While it is known that type I collagen is the major constituent of RCFM, the biochemical composition of RCFM has not yet been determined. Therefore, we attempted to identify the ECM components of RCFM in comparison with those in DM using immunofluorescence microscopic analysis. We further examined whether corneal endothelium is responsible for the expression of both basement membrane and non-basement membrane phenotypes. For this purpose, we used paraformaldehyde-fixed tissues, in which corneal endothelial layers were well preserved.
When the distribution of the classic type IV collagen, composed of a1(IV) and a2(IV) chains, was studied, the molecule was seen in the entire DM and in the corneal endothelium, whereas RCFM did not react with the type IV collagen antibody. The staining pattern of DM with the type IV collagen antibody was in agreement with the previous report [26] in which the cryostat sections were pretreated with 0.1 M acetic acid prior to antibody staining. These staining patterns in the entire DM differ from those reported by Ljubimov et al [22], in which the antibody made against the a2(IV) collagen chain predominantly stained the stromal face of the DM. The authors subsequently proposed that keratocytes produce the classic type IV collagen [22]. The difference in the staining pattern of the classic type IV collagen among these studies may not be due to the spatial segregation of a1(IV) and a2(IV) collagen chains produced by the stromal keratocytes. The positive staining of type IV collagen in corneal endothelium (Figure 1B) does not confirm the proposition. Furthermore, we have reported that corneal endothelium contains a2(IV) collagen mRNA and that a1(IV) and a2(IV) collagen chains are synthesized and secreted by CEC [27,28]. The present finding, shown in Figure 1C, confirms that the classic type IV collagen, a product of corneal endothelium, may be present in the entire DM [26].
The DM contains stacks of hexagonal lattices that are arranged parallel to the surface of the membrane [29]. Type VIII collagen most likely forms this hexagonal nodal/internodal network [20,30]. When corneal tissue was stained with anti-type VIII collagen antibody, the antibody stained corneal endothelium but did not stain DM. The absence of staining in DM in the present study differs from previous studies [20,26] in which the entire DM was stained with the type VIII collagen antibody. What causes the difference in the staining patterns is not known; this discrepancy may be due to the masking of epitopes of type VIII collagen in rabbit DM. However, the masking of epitopes is not caused by the use of fixatives, because one of the previous studies [20] was performed with 4% paraformaldehyde-fixed adult bovine corneas, as was the present study. When corneas containing RCFM were stained with the antibody, positive staining of RCFM was observed, suggesting that the transformed endothelial cells in RCFM have the ability to produce type VIII collagen, which is subsequently deposited into the ECM. Hogan reported the characteristic hexagonal figures within the DM (most likely RCFM tissue) in Fuch's endothelial dystrophy before type VIII collagen and its supramolecular organization had been determined [31]. The positive staining of type VIII collagen in RCFM confirms Hogan's finding in Fuch's endothelial dystrophy.
In our previous study [10], we reported that corneal endothelium produces type I procollagen, which is subsequently subjected to intracellular degradation. Type XII collagen is also found in corneal endothelium but not in DM [11]. Ultrastructural studies on the development of rabbit corneal endothelium demonstrate that fibrils deposited on the basal side of the corneal endothelium and subsequently incorporated into DM are synthesized by corneal endothelium [32]. Taken together, these findings suggest that corneal endothelium is able to synthesize not only basement membrane collagens but non-basement membrane collagen types. However, in normal adult corneal endothelium, unlike the fetal corneal endothelium, these non-basement membrane phenotypes should be intracellularly degraded before they are secreted into the ECM for subsequent deposit in DM. The in vivo localization of the fibrillar collagens (I and III), interfibrillar collagens (two splice variant forms of XII and VI), and type VII collagen (anchoring fiber), therefore, was determined in corneal endothelium, DM and RCFM. Types I, III, and VI and both splice-variant forms of type XII collagen are present in corneal endothelium but not in DM, while all of these collagens are present as components of RCFM. The absence of these collagens in DM indicates that corneal endothelium produces non-basement membrane collagens and destroys them before their secretion into the DM. This phenomenon has been studied in detail with type I collagen [10,33], and the present study further indicates that a similar mechanism of intracellular degradation may be applicable to the other non-basement membrane collagens in corneal endothelium. On the other hand, type VII collagen is absent in corneal endothelium, DM and RCFM. It is likely that type VII collagen is present only in the epithelial attachment complex, in which the molecule stabilizes the epithelial basement membrane to the underlying stroma. Linsenmayer et al. suggest that type IV collagen in DM may be a functional homologue of type VII collagen in corneal epithelium [30].
Matrix assembly is dependent on molecular interactions between fibrillar components (mostly collagen fibrils) and interfibrillar macromolecules that bind to fibril surfaces. Among the interfibrillar non-collagenous components that are abundant in corneal tissues are proteoglycans and big-h3. big-h3 is disulfide linked to the globular domain of native type VI collagen; thus the protein is copurified with native type VI collagen [17]. Because of the characteristic behavior of big-h3, we examined its distribution. As shown by its staining pattern, big-h3, like type VI collagen, is present in corneal endothelium but not in DM. RCFM shows a strong positive staining. When the distribution of the two proteoglycan molecules, perlecan (basement membrane phenotype) and decorin (non-basement membrane phenotype), was examined, perlecan was observed in corneal endothelium but not in DM. This staining pattern is different from the one discussed in the previous report [22], in which the endothelial surface of DM is positively stained, as opposed to the lack of staining of DM in the present study. Since corneal endothelium was not present in the previous work [22], a direct comparison of the two studies may hamper the information obtained from these studies. Decorin is seen in corneal endothelium, in the stromal side of DM and in the RCFM. The findings for decorin confirm that corneal endothelium is able to produce a non-basement membrane type of proteoglycan that exists predominantly in the corneal stroma. When the distribution of laminin was examined, corneal endothelium and RCFM were positive for staining with the classic laminin (laminin-1), whereas DM was negative for laminin staining. This observation is different from that reported in the previous work [22], in which the endothelial face of DM demonstrates positive staining. The differences in the staining pattern of basement membrane phenotypes (type IV collagen, perlecan and type VIII collagen) between the present study and the previous report [22] requires close examination.
The present study confirms that corneal endothelium has the capacity to produce non-basement membrane phenotypes, which are subsequently degraded before secretion. RCFM, on the other hand, mostly expresses fibrillar phenotypes although residual production of basement membrane phenotypes is also observed. This further suggests that the cells responsible for RCFM production are indeed the corneal endothelial cells. This in vivo finding supports our in vitro model of endothelial mesenchymal transformation of corneal endothelial cells.
Supported by grants EY 06431 and EY 03040 from the National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, and by an unrestricted grant from Research to Prevent Blindness, New York, New York.
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16. Oh SP, Griffith CM, Hay ED, Olsen BR. Tissue-specific expression of type XII collagen during mouse embryonic development. Dev Dyn 1993; 196:37-46.
17. Gibson MA, Kumaratilake JS, Cleary EG. Immunohistochemical and ultrastructural localization of MP78/70 (betaig-h3) in extracellular matrix of developing and mature bovine tissues. J Histochem Cytochem 1997; 45:1683-96.
18. El-Shabrawi Y, Kublin CL, Cintron C. mRNA levels of alpha1(VI) collagen, alpha1(XII) collagen, and beta ig in rabbit cornea during normal development and healing. Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci 1998; 39:36-44.
19. Rawe IM, Zhan Q, Burrows R, Bennett K, Cintron C. Beta-ig. Molecular cloning and in situ hybridization in corneal tissues. Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci 1997; 38:893-900.
20. Sawada H, Konomi H, Hirosawa K. Characterization of the collagen in the hexagonal lattice of Descemet's membrane: its relation to type VIII collagen. J Cell Biol 1990; 110:219-27.
21. Labermeier U, Kenney MC. The presence of EC collagen and type IV collagen in bovine Descemet's membranes. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1983; 116:619-25.
22. Ljubimov AV, Burgeson RE, Butkowski RJ, Michael AF, Sun TT, Kenney MC. Human corneal basement membrane heterogeneity: topographical differences in the expression of type IV collagen and laminin isoforms. Lab Invest 1995; 72:461-73.
23. Kay EP, Smith RE, Nimni ME. Basement membrane collagen synthesis by rabbit corneal endothelial cells in culture. Evidence for an alpha chain derived from a larger biosynthetic precursor. J Biol Chem 1982; 257:7116-21.
24. Waring GO 3d. Posterior collagenous layer of the cornea. Ultrastructural classification of abnormal collagenous tissue posterior to Descemet's membrane in 30 cases. Arch Ophthalmol 1982; 100:122-34.
25. Bloomfield SE, Jakobiec FA, Iwamoto T. Fibrous ingrowth with retrocorneal membrane. Ophthalmology 1981; 88:459-65.
26. Kapoor R, Bornstein P, Sage EH. Type VIII collagen from bovine Descemet's membrane: structural characterization of a triple-helical domain. Biochemistry 1986; 25:3930-7.
27. Kay EP. Expression of types I and IV collagen genes in normal and in modulated corneal endothelial cells. Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci 1989; 30:260-8.
28. Kay EP, He YG. Post-transcriptional and transcriptional control of collagen gene expression in normal and modulated rabbit corneal endothelial cells. Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci 1991; 32:1821-7.
29. Jakus MA. Studies on the cornea. II. The fine structure of Descemet's membrane. The Journal of Biophysical and Biochemical Cytology 1956; 2:S243-52.
30. Linsenmayer TF, Fitch JM, Gordon MK, Cai CX, Igoe F, Marchant JK, Birk DE. Development and roles of collagenous matrices in the embryonic avian cornea. Prog Retin Eye Res 1998; 17:231-65.
31. Hogan MJ, Wood I, Fine M. Fuch's endothelial dystrophy of the cornea. Am J Ophthalmol 1974; 78:363-83.
32. Cintron C, Covington HI, Kublin CL. Morphogenesis of rabbit corneal endothelium. Curr Eye Res 1988; 7:913-29.
33. Ko MK, Kay EP. Hsp47-dependent and -independent intracellular trafficking of type I collagen in corneal endothelial cells. Mol Vis 1999; 5:17 <http://www.molvis.org/molvis/v5/a17/>.
Leung, Mol Vis 2000; 6:15-23 <http://www.molvis.org/molvis/v6/a4/>
©2000 Molecular Vision <http://www.molvis.org/molvis/>
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Sunday Night Football Flex Scheduling Watch: Week 12
November 28, 2018 by Morgan Wick
Since it started in its current format as the NFL’s main primetime package in 2006, the defining feature of NBC’s Sunday Night Football has been the use of flexible scheduling to ensure the best matchups and showcase the best teams as the season goes along. Well, that’s the theory, anyway; the reality has not always lived up to the initial hype and has at times seemed downright mystifying. Regardless, I’m here to help you figure out what you can and can’t expect to see on Sunday nights on NBC.
A full explanation of all the factors that go into flexible scheduling decisions can be found on my NFL Flexible Scheduling Primer, but here’s the Cliffs Notes version with all the important points you need to know:
The season can be broken down into three different periods (four if you count the first four weeks where flexible scheduling does not apply at all) for flexible scheduling purposes, each with similar yet different rules governing them: the early flex period, from weeks 5 to 10; the main flex period, from weeks 11 to 16; and week 17. In years where Christmas forces either the Sunday afternoon slate or the Sunday night game to Saturday in Week 16, flex scheduling does not apply that week, and the main flex period begins week 10.
In all cases, only games scheduled for Sunday may be moved to Sunday night. Thursday and Monday night games, as well as late-season Saturday games, are not affected by Sunday night flexible scheduling (discounting the “flexible scheduling” applied to Saturday of Week 16 this year – see below).
During the early and main flex periods, one game is “tentatively” scheduled for Sunday night and listed with the Sunday night start time of 8:20 PM ET. This game will usually remain at that start time and air on NBC, but may be flexed out for another game and moved to 1, 4:05, or 4:25 PM ET on Fox or CBS, no less than 12 days in advance of the game.
No more than two games can be flexed to Sunday night over the course of the early flex period. If the NFL wishes to flex out a game in the early flex period twelve days in advance, CBS and Fox may elect to protect one game each from being moved to Sunday night. This is generally an emergency valve in situations where the value of the tentative game has plummeted since the schedule was announced, namely in cases of injury to a key star player.
CBS and Fox may also each protect games in five out of six weeks of the main flex period, but all of those protections must be submitted after week 5, week 4 in years where the main flex period begins week 10 (so it is always six weeks before the start of the main flex period).
No team may appear more than six times across the league’s three primetime packages on NBC, ESPN, and Fox/NFL Network, and only three teams are allowed to appear that often, with everyone else getting five. In addition, no team may appear more than four times on NBC. All teams’ number of appearances heading into this season may be seen here.
According to the league’s official page, teams are notified when “they are no longer under consideration or eligible for a move to Sunday night.” However, they rarely make this known to the fans, and the list of each network’s protections has never officially been made public. It used to leak fairly regularly, but has not leaked since 2014.
In all cases, the NFL is the ultimate arbiter of the schedule and consults with CBS, Fox, and NBC before moving any games to prime time. If the NFL does elect to flex out the Sunday night game, the network whose game is flexed in receives the former tentative game, regardless of which network would “normally” air it under the “CBS=AFC, Fox=NFC” rules, keeping each network’s total number of games constant. At the same time, the NFL may also move games between 1 PM ET and 4:05/4:25 PM ET. However, this feature focuses primarily if not entirely on Sunday night flexible scheduling.
In Week 17, the entire schedule is set on only six days notice, ensuring that NBC gets a game with playoff implications, generally a game where the winner is the division champion. In theory, NBC may also show an intra-division game for a wild card spot, or a game where only one team wins the division with a win but doesn’t win the division with a loss, but such situations are rare and NBC has never shown them. If no game is guaranteed to have maximum playoff implications before Sunday night in this fashion, the league has been known not to schedule a Sunday night game at all. To ensure maximum flexibility, no protections or appearance limits apply to Week 17. The NFL also arranges the rest of the schedule such that no team playing at 4:25 PM ET (there are no 4:05 games Week 17) could have their playoff fate decided by the outcome of the 1 PM ET games, which usually means most if not all of the games with playoff implications outside Sunday night are played at 4:25 PM ET.
Here are the current tentatively-scheduled games and my predictions:
Read moreSunday Night Football Flex Scheduling Watch: Week 12
Categories SNF Flex Scheduling Watch12 Comments
Sunday Night Football Flex Scheduling Watch: Week 9
November 9, 2018 by Morgan Wick
Read moreSunday Night Football Flex Scheduling Watch: Week 9
Last-Minute Remarks on SNF Week 11 Picks
Week 11 (November 18):
Tentative game: Pittsburgh @ Jacksonville
Prospects: 5-2-1 v. 3-5. Getting concerningly lopsided, and the Jaguars are losing contact with the division lead.
Likely protections: Bengals-Ravens if anything (CBS) and Vikings-Bears or Eagles-Saints (more likely the former even if Fox needs to protect Eagles games) (FOX).
Other possible games mentioned on last week’s Watch and their records: Texans (6-3)-Indians (5-3).
Impact of Monday Night Football: None.
Analysis: On the one hand the Texans won, on the other hand the Steelers also won and Washington lost so we’re only one result short from the scenario that I thought would result in the tentative keeping its spot… on the other hand we’re also only one result from one where I might have flexed in Texans-Indians without much of a thought. As it stands Texans-Indians is still a battle of two teams with the division lead, one of which is in the NFC East. Questioning whether the Eagles are actually maxed out on primetime appearances or not doesn’t change the analysis that much.
Final prediction: Houston Texans @ Washington Indians.
Actual selection: Minnesota Vikings @ Chicago Bears (which I accidentally encountered on Twitter before writing this post). Well that puts a whole new wrinkle into the question of whether the Eagles are actually maxed out on primetime appearances; as mentioned, even if they weren’t given the Eagles’ mediocre start I would have figured Fox would have protected Vikings-Bears anyway, especially given the in-division rivalry factor. Even leaving it unprotected, Texans-Indians has a slightly better pair of records and, given their market sizes and the presence of J.J. Watt and an NFC East team, isn’t that much less TV-friendly, and even if you’d normally give the edge to TV-friendlier Vikings-Bears Fox could have given it the lead doubleheader slot (now going to Eagles-Saints) while Texans-Indians will now be mired in singleheader purgatory. And then there’s the fact Steelers-Jaguars is going to CBS, not Fox, showing the league can make exceptions to the “flexed-out game always goes to the network losing a game” rule even though it would have made a lot more sense to bend that rule Week 7.
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Our Prattville - A News Magazine
Send the Editor a Letter
MarChelle’s Bistro & Bakery
May 6, 2009 admin 3 Comments
Marchelle's Bistro & Bakery in downtown Prattville - Photo by Melissa Parker
Prattville – In addition to fine food and a wide variety of desserts, MarChelle’s Bistro & Bakery features live entertainment.
Currently playing every Friday and Saturday night is Brian Brantley, a music professor from Huntingdon College in Montgomery. According to Nolan, MarChelle’s daytime manager, Brantley plays beautiful classical music and it’s just a treat to listen to him play the acoustic guitar.
MarChelle’s also has a wine tasting on the third Thursday of each month. The Bistro & Bakery is located on 166 West Main Street in downtown Prattville.
Article by Melissa Parker
© 2009 Our Prattville. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the express written consent of the publisher.
Posted in: Nightlife Filed under: Nightlife, Prattville, Restaurant
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3 thoughts on “MarChelle’s Bistro & Bakery”
Mark Taylor says:
The Wine Tastings are on the 1st and 3rd Thursdays of each month. And they are FREE!
Starts about 5:30 pm and ends at 7:30 pm. A great way to introduce yourself to new wines. Bring a couple of friends and start the Week End early.
We have Moved the Wine Tastings to Saturdays. Still the 1st and 3rd of each month.
This is something that my friends and I were just talking about doing. Plus the other places we were looking at were over an hour away. This place is in the same city we all live. Is there a limit on how many people can come? Do I need to go down there and be put on a list?
Thanks for any information that you can give me!
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connection can be noticeably slower, often due to the need to resend some of the data to correct for errors.
There are several reasons for these poor results. First and foremost, the antenna built into the laptop is usually located deep inside your boat. What signal actually does reach it has had its strength reduced each time it passed through a group of masts or the structures of other vessels, and the signal is further attenuated when it passes through your own boat’s cabin sides. The signal transmitted by the laptop wi-fi adapter must follow the same path back to the marina access point, with equal complications.
The single most important thing you can do to improve wi-fi performance aboard is to mount an external antenna that delivers a stronger signal to the wi-fi adapter installed on a computer below decks. This will enhance both the received and the transmitted signal. It is important to remember that wi-fi is a two-way connection. If the marina access point can’t “hear” your transmissions, you can’t communicate. Adding an external antenna is not as straightforward as it might seem. At 2.4GHz, a significant amount of
the signal can be lost in the cable. Therefore, selecting a low-loss transmission cable is a must. This type of cable is expensive compared to that commonly used with television or marine VHF antennas, but it’s well worth the price.
Another cause for poor wi-fi results aboard is the lack of sufficient transmitting power. Admittedly, this doesn’t affect reception, but if your signal doesn’t reach the access point antenna, you can’t establish a connection. Transmitting power varies from a low of 30–50 milliwatts to about 500 milliwatts for some of the more powerful wi-fi adapters.
One solution is to enhance the wi-fi signal by employing a bidirectional amplifier that boosts the strength of both the transmitted signal and the received signal. Amplifying the transmitted signal is fairly straightforward, whereas improving the strength and readability of the received signal is a challenge. At 2.4GHz, there is a relatively constant level of background noise. As the strength of the wi-fi signal decreases, it becomes lost in the ever-present background noise. To improve readability, the amplifier
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Stories Blogs Comments Photos Classifieds Everything
Marshall Democrat-News
Stories from Thursday, September 15, 2005
Slots open for golf tournament (Community Sports ~ 09/15/05)
There are openings remaining for teams in the Marshall Three-Man Scramble Tournament, Saturday and Sunday, Sept. 17-18, at Indian Foothills Golf Course. The cost is $240 per team, with the cart fee $10 per person. For more information, call 831-0929...
Westran slams Slater 15-1 (High School Sports ~ 09/15/05)
HUNTSVILLE -- Defending Lewis and Clark Conference champion Westran handed the Slater softball team its 21st straight loss Tuesday, 15-1 in five innings. An error which ultimately led to three runs cost the Lady Wildcats in the bottom of the first inning, but in the second the Lady Hornets banged out seven hits -- including sophomore Emily Moore's two-run single -- to score six times...
Valley teams stomp Harris-Stowe State (College Sports ~ 09/15/05)
ST. LOUIS -- The Missouri Valley College men's and women's soccer teams had a blast Tuesday during their trip to St. Louis. "Blast" as in explosion, which the Vikings performed during their sweep of non-conference foe Hannibal-LaGrange. The Valley men bombed the Hornets, 8-0, and the Lady Vikings cruised to a 4-0 victory...
Prep Grid Preview: 'Hounds, Chiefs in major I-70 showdown (High School Sports ~ 09/15/05)
SWEET SPRINGS -- The defending I-70 Conference champions meets the team which currently leads the league Friday when Santa Fe goes to Sweet Springs. The Chiefs are coming off a pair of hard losses, including a 12-8 setback last week at Lone Jack in which five turnovers played a deciding role...
Just a word about the real heroes (Column ~ 09/15/05)
Because I believe you will not hear this through the normal channels of news (network news coverage, major newspapers, and cable news outlets) I wanted to tell you about some folks who are at this moment making a difference in the lives of countless hurricane victims. In fact, they've been making a difference since day one...
Tractor taken (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
The Marshall Police Department is looking for leads into the theft of a compact tractor stolen sometime between Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning. According to information released by the department, the tractor is a 2210 John Deere equipped with a 5-foot mowing deck. The unit was last seen around 5:30 p.m. Tuesday at Deems Farm Equipment on U.S. Highway 65. It was missing when employees returned Wednesday morning...
Public meeting set to discuss Miami bridge (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
The Missouri Depart-ment of Transportation will hold a public meeting from 4 to 7 p.m. Tuesday, Sept. 20, at the Miami Community Building regarding proposed improvements to the Highway 41 Missouri River bridge between Dewitt and Miami. An open-house format will be utilized for the meeting allowing members of the public to offer input and to discuss the project with MoDOT staff...
Local driver involved in three-vehicle crash (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
A Sedalia girl suffered serious injuries Wednesday after the vehicle she was riding in was totaled in a three-vehicle collision in Pettis County. According to a preliminary report filed by the Missouri State Highway Patrol, the crash occurred at 7:05 a.m. on Whitfield Road at its intersection with Route MM...
McCaskill to address local Democrats (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
The Saline County Democrat Club will host a dinner at 6:30 p.m. Thursday, Sept. 22, at the Marshall Senior Center, 72 W. Morgan, featuring Claire McCaskill, Missouri state auditor, as the guest speaker. McCaskill has announced her candidacy for the 2006 U.S. Senate race. The seat is currently held by Jim Talent...
CLARO parade, festivities scheduled for Saturday (Features ~ 09/15/05)
In the first of what organizers hope will become an annual event, a Latin-American Independence celebration will overtake the Marshall square on Saturday, Sept. 17. CLARO, Marshall's Latino assistance organization, will hold a parade and fiesta with games and authentic cuisine from south of the border on sale. "We're kicking off Hispanic Heritage Month as well," said Carrie Tyler, executive director of CLARO...
Gresham shows directing talents in 'Driving Miss Daisy' (Features ~ 09/15/05)
It's been a busy year for Quin Gresham. In January he was named associate artistic director for the Arrow Rock Lyceum Theatre and in May assumed the duties of artistic director. Finding himself leading a theater at a crossroads, Gresham also took it on himself to direct both "Peter Pan" and the most recent offering, "Driving Miss Daisy." With this play, Gresham has fulfilled his mentor Philip Coffield's prediction and shown how capable he truly is...
Sweet Springs aldermen table cable TV franchise extension (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
A request by Galaxy Cablevision to extend its franchise cable television rights for another 15 years in Sweet Springs was tabled by the Sweet Springs Board of Aldermen Monday. Representing the company, Cameron Miller said Galaxy had been seeking the extension since 2002, though City Clerk Ronda Nienhueser said she had not received any information...
Raid made on Sweet Springs home (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
A pair of Sweet Springs residents were in custody Thursday following a late-night raid on their home Wednesday. Saline County Sheriff Wally George said deputies and troopers with the Missouri State Highway Patrol executed the search warrant around 11:45 p.m. at a house in the 600 block of West Street in Sweet Springs. After knocking three times, officers forced their way into the home and arrested Peter E. Ulberg Jr., 24, and Virginia K. Ulberg, 47...
MVC students take turns behind wheel of drunken driving simulator (Local News ~ 09/15/05)
Missouri Valley College students stepped up to what looked like a glorified arcade game while an open casket sat behind them. The rhythm of Led Zeppelin's "Black Dog" throbbed lightly in the background -- "... Oh, oh child, way you shake that thing, gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting ... ."...
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Site Design and Illustrations by Lorian Tu-Dean (c) 2016
Airlie Anderson (The Children's Book Podcast #463)
Airlie Anderson (@airliebird) is the author illustrator of NEITHER, a new picture book about a creature who is not this or that, but neither. It's a story of finding a place to belong, a place to feel welcome. It's also a story about making room for others who may be different from you. But one of the book's most powerful qualities is the space left for the reader to make his or her own connections, to see his or her own this, that, and neither. And for adults to do the same.
In this colorful and touching story that celebrates what makes each of us unique, a little creature that's not quite a bird and not quite a bunny--it's "neither"--searches for a place to fit in.
In the Land of This and That, there are only two kinds: blue bunnies and yellow birds. But one day a funny green egg hatches, and a little creature that's not quite a bird and not quite a bunny pops out. It's neither!
Neither tries hard to fit in, but its bird legs aren't good for jumping like the other bunnies, and its fluffy tail isn't good for flapping like the other birds. It sets out to find a new home and discovers a very different place, one with endless colors and shapes and creatures of all kinds. But when a blue bunny and a yellow bird with some hidden differences of their own arrive, it's up to Neither to decide if they are welcome in the Land of All.
This colorful, simple, and touching story promotes diversity and offers a valuable lesson to the youngest of audiences: it is our differences that unite us.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR ILLUSTRATOR:
Airlie Anderson is the author and illustrator of Neither, Cat's Colors, Momo and Snap Are Not Friends, and many other children's books. She is the recipient of the Moonbeam Children's Book Award, the Independent Publisher Book Award, and the Practical Pre-School Award. Airlie graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design and now lives in New Jersey.
She creates her illustrations using gouache (opaque watercolor) on hot press watercolor paper (the smooth kind). I also doodle aimlessly in my sketchbook whenever I can.
Learn more about Airlie Anderson at airlieanderson.com
And purchase any one of Airlie's books for you, your readers, a friend, or a library HERE.
OTHER BOOKS BY OUR GUEST
*This post contains affiliate links. Any purchases made through these links will support the costs of maintaining the podcast, webcomic, and other materials associated with this site.
SHOUT OUT TO OUR PATRONS!
Thank you, JENNY SUE, AMY, KATE, DARSHANA, NOCOLE, JARRETT, MIKE, LINK, ANITRA, LYNN, CYNTHIA, DOUG, AMANDA, RUTH, LARA, JUDI, CORRINA, TERESA, ELAINE and the van load of others who are coming with me on this journey. You’re welcome to join us. Just visit Patreon.com/matthewcwinner and pick the support tier that’s right for you. All the hugs and high fives for all of the many, many ways all of out there listening support this show.
Become a Patron of The Children's Book Podcast
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Master List of Kidlit Podcasts
Elizabeth Zunon (The Children's Book Podcast #562)
Angela Joy (The Children's Book Podcast #561)
Seeing Homelessness
Ann Braden (The Children's Book Podcast #560)
Hosting a Mock Book Award
Rajani LaRocca (The Children's Book Podcast #559)
Introducing Matthew In The Stacks
Jin Xiaojing (The Children's Book Podcast #558)
Julie Fogliano (The Children's Book Podcast #557)
Thanku Contributors (The Children's Book Podcast #556)
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Accueil de l'OCDE EmploiDéveloppement économique et création locale d’emplois (LEED)Improving the impact of territorial wide area co-operation in the Adriatic-Ionian region
Improving the impact of territorial wide area co-operation in the Adriatic-Ionian region
Lessons from the Implementation of the ADRION Transnational Co-operation Programme
The OECD Trento Centre for Local Development co-operated with the Emilia Romagna Region (North-East Italy appointed as Managing Authority of the ADRION Programme) and ERVET (Emilia Romagna in-house agency in charge of the technical assistance for the ADRION Programme).
The purpose of the project was to identify the needs and priorities for policy improvement and to foster the exchange of experiences, the capitalisation of acquired know-how and the generation of new and fresh thinking in the Adriatic-Ionian macro-region.
Implementation period: September 2017 - March 2019
The European Union pursues the co-operation between EU territories in the framework of its Regional Development and Cohesion Policy, funded through the European Structural and Investment Funds (ESI Funds) and aimed at strengthening economic and social cohesion by correcting imbalances between regions.
In the framework of the European Territorial Co-operation (ETC), the Interreg VB Adriatic-Ionian 2014-2020 Operational Programme (ADRION), was set up including 31 regions from 4 ERDF partner states and 4 IPA II partner states (from the Western Balkans).
The ADRION is structured according to four main priorities:
Innovative and smart region.
Sustainable region.
Connected region.
Supporting the governance of the EU Strategy for the Adriatic and Ionian Region (EUSAIR).
Moreover, relevant to be considered as part of the European regional development policy context, the European Commission adopted the European Strategy for the Adriatic and Ionian Region (EUSAIR), the macro-regional strategy endorsed by the European Council in 2014.
Both the ADRION Programme and the macro-regional strategy aim at fostering co-operation, creating synergies and enhancing the economic, social and territorial cohesion of the area.
Objectives and contents of the project
The current ADRION implementation and the progress made so far has highlighted a twofold challenge to be tackled in the near future by the Programme:
Pursuing the enhancement of the alignment and overall consistency between the projects funded by ADRION and the EUSAIR, also taking into consideration how to address and target the next ADRION call for proposals.
Envisioning the post-2020 Adriatic and Ionian co-operation space, based on the lessons learned through the ETC area relevant programmes and on the current policy framework in place in the region.
The project implementation has been phased in two parts according to these challenges.
Phase I – September/December 2017
The OECD first defined the methodological approach to be adopted in undertaking the research, mapping the projects from the first ADRION call for proposals in order to prepare the evidence for the subsequent gap analysis focused on the 35 projects funded by ADRION under the first call for proposals.
The gap analysis verified the consistency to the ADRION Co-operation Programme objectives and results and the compliance with the pillars and topics/specific objectives of the EUSAIR.
A comparative analysis of ADRION vis-à-vis other relevant transnational co-operation programmes has been then undertaken, since the latter are considered useful reference for leveraging on other experiences, particularly those where ETC programmes are implemented in European contexts where a macro-regional strategy is in place (i.e. the Baltic, the Danube and the Alpine spaces).
Finally, conclusions and recommendations have been drawn from the research, addressing measures to be taken to improve the performance of ADRION, in particular how to enhance the achievement of the expected results and how to foster a stronger co-ordination and alignment between ADRION and the EUSAIR.
Phase I - Output
Territorial wide area co-operation in the Adriatic-Ionian region - Lessons from the Implementation of the EU ADRION Transnational Cooperation Programme
Phase II - January/March 2019
The overarching objective of the project in the second phase was to contribute envisioning the Adriatic and Ionian co-operation perspectives beyond 2020, building on the experience of current programming period, in particular on the EU ETC relevant programmes and on the current policy framework in place in the region.
That objective reflected the main interest expressed by the Emilia Romagna Region, as Managing Authority of the ADRION Programme, to get suggestions and policy recommendations able to provide arguments for assuming a political orientation and position on the ETC future, on the role of the regions (NUTS 2) therein, under the wider context of future post-2020 EU cohesion policy.
In undertaking such exercise the key policy questions posed were:
Analysis of main recent changes in the Adriatic-Ionian area, considering as reference framework the macroregional current strategy and its pillars;
Discussion of the main drivers for the future development of the macroregion;
Possible role of the ETC and of the future ADRION (or succeeding programme) in tackling some of the key challenges the future development of the Adriatic-Ionian area beyond 2020 entails;
Main ADRION and ETC functional issues to be considered for the future programme so to enable it playing the expected role and function, under a multilevel governance perspective.
From the methodological perspective the activities considered two main focuses:
Updating and consolidating, according to a selective focus on most relevant features, a factual solid and evidence based capacity to read the complex and heterogeneous Adriatic-Ionian macro region, also comparing it with other international transnational areas;
Triggering the discussion, the exchange of ideas and fresh concepts concerning the main policy implications of future transnational and strategy oriented cooperation throughout the Adriatic-Ionian macroregion, envisioning a sound mission and governance for the future ADRION programme, also building on the first phase's conclusions.
Phase II - Output
Territorial wide area co-operation in the Adriatic-Ionian region - Outlook on future Transnational Cooperation in the Region
OECD Contact
Paolo Rosso
Integrated local development
OECD Trento Centre (Italy)
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Prince of Peace Lutheran College | Christian Private School, Brisbane North
A day at the College
Christian life at Prince of Peace
Looking back and to the future
Junior School (P-6)
Middle School (Y7-9)
Senior School (Y10-12)
Supporting diverse learning needs
Keeping parents informed
Leadership and service
Student Representative Council (Y7-12)
Extracurricular opportunities
Why Prince of Peace?
Enrolment documents
Why a Lutheran school?
Kindergarten enrolment
Student portals
Fee invoicing and payments
Outside School Hours Care (P-7)
Homework Club (Y7-12)
Defence School Mentor Program
Supporting the College
Connecting with our local community
We deliver a range of sporting programs as part of a balanced school program. We encourage our students to be physically active and healthy, and complement our sporting programs with Health and Physical Education subjects from Prep onwards.
Training for competitive interschool sport commences in Year 4, with an athletics-based program. Students learn key field and track disciplines during the first half of the school year, and then prepare for and participate in interschool sports competitions during Terms 3 and 4.
From Year 4, students participate in a competitive sports program through to the end of Year 9. Students compete in a summer and winter team in interschool competitions. Students can represent the College in the same sports each year, or explore various sports.
During Years 10-12, students participate in a Sports and Recreation Program alongside their studies, providing them with a range of opportunities including futsul, indoor cricket, volleyball, softball, tennis and soccer.
Interhouse competitions take place throughout the year for cross country, swimming and athletics. Students can qualify to represent the College at district level and above, and also at inter-Lutheran competitions.
Running Club is offered on both campuses. The club focuses on distance and cross-country running during the cross-country season (Terms 1 and 2) and athletics track and field events in the athletics season (Terms 2 and 3). This provides training and preparation for school-based competitions, inter-Lutheran, district and regional events.
Sporting teams
Club sports play an important role in the lives of many of our students. The College provides a sporting program that complements club sports through skills development, and also gives students the opportunity to represent the College in selected competitions.
There are various avenues for students to get involved in sporting teams, including competing in the Brisbane Christian Schools Sport Competition in touch football, soccer and netball, and the Brisbane Outer School Sporting League in netball, basketball, volleyball and futsal. The College also has Year 7 to 9 development squads for selected sports.
For more information on our College sports program please contact our Health and Physical Education curriculum leaders:
Junior Campus Brad Wooding E: bwooding@princeofpeace.qld.edu.au
Senior Campus Grant Carlson E: gcarlson@princeofpeace.qld.edu.au
Back to Beyond the classroom
GENERAL ENQUIRIES 07 3872 5700 school@princeofpeace.qld.edu.au
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Fashion House of Lonali: A Promising Sign of Sustainable Fashion in Sri Lanka
House of Lonali: A Promising Sign of Sustainable Fashion in Sri Lanka
Archana Heenpella
Within Sri Lanka’s illustrious fashion industry, sustainability hasn’t traditionally been a top-notch priority.
In an era of conscious consumption, however, where ethical production, recycling, and up-cycling are now entering the mainstream, House of Lonali has more than just a few tricks up its sleeve.
As Lonali Rodrigo, Head Designer and Founder of the brand passionately explained to me, up-cycling refers to the process where waste material is recreated to produce high-quality items. Through this process, House of Lonali transforms discarded or unused material into bold pieces of clothing, perfect for individuals with a taste for clean and classic looks.
Imbued with a real cosmopolitan edge, the brand’s designs are both versatile and fit for the unforgiving Sri Lankan climate. More than just its fancy floral printed tube tops, conversation-stopping Honza shirts, and reverse print dresses, House of Lonali is also known for its signature line of footwear, featuring both striking prints and more subtle designs. The label is also increasingly popular for its stylish and practical clutches, which are frequently paired with high fashion get-ups.
Women’s clothing and accessories, however, are only the tip of the iceberg for the savvy designer.
With a repertoire of unconventional design work, the label is soon to launch not just a menswear and children’s line but also its second rainwear collection with Rainco. Following up to a daring collection two years ago, the pieces are set to take the Mercedes-Benz Fashion Week by a storm later this year.
In my conversation with the powerhouse behind this global brand, which has an established arm in the UK, one thing I was made to understand is that sustainable fashion is often mired with mistaken beliefs.
Lonali keenly pointed out that unlike other sustainable practices, opting for up-cycled fashion does not mean you compromise on style, comfort or affordability. In fact, you only access high-quality materials that are stylistically redesigned to provide fresh and daring looks. The bonus here is that all the processes behind the sourcing and manufacturing of the clothes are entirely ethical, allowing buyers to sleep soundly knowing they’ve done their duty by the unsung heroes of the clothing industry.
In my conversation with Lonali, I asked her what’s in store for the brand in the near future. Here, she informed me that a couple of exciting lines are soon to be released, including an eye-popping collection that features the work of a young, talented typography artist, as well her aforementioned raincoat collection.
Available at The Design Collective, Zudora (with whom the brand has its own collaboration), and directly from the House of Lonali store, products are available either for direct purchase or through delivery. Orders are accepted through the brand’s keenly-followed Facebook and Instagram profiles.
With players like House of Lonali leading the sustainable fashion niche in Sri Lanka, it’s not long before these efforts make a significant impact on the lure and appeal of local designs in the international market.
Visit www.lonali.com today to check out the brand’s full range of clothing, shoes, and accessories!
fashion sri lanka
House of Lonali
Lonali
sustainable fashion sri lanka
Previous articleWhere to Get Imported Goods in Sri Lanka
Next articleSwapna Burman: The Heptathlon Queen who Battled Pain and Poverty
From Fast Fashion to Thrift Shops: How You Can Help The Climate
Design, Textile and Embroidery: How Sri Lankan Hirushi is Making Waves in International Markets
Model Jeenu Mahadevan speaks out on colourism in the Asian Community
Pulse Offmarks Miss Sri Lanka Earth set to revolutionize the beauty pageant industry in Sri Lanka
The Woes of Shopping in Sri Lanka: A Female Perspective
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What Historical Events Happened On My Birthday?
Today Celebrity Birthdays
See what makes October 18 special at Famous Daily.
History, birthdays, holiday, and a quote!
What happened on October 18
October 18, 0707 John VII ends his reign as Catholic Pope
October 18, 1009 "The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, a Christian church in Jerusalem, is completely destroyed by the Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, who hacks the Church's foundations down to bedrock."
October 18, 1016 Danes defeat Saxons at Battle of Assandun (Ashingdon)
October 18, 1016 The Danes defeat the Saxons in the Battle of Ashingdon.
October 18, 1081 The Normans defeat the Byzantine Empire in the Battle of Dyrrhachium.
October 18, 1210 Pope Innocent III excommunicates German leader Otto IV .
October 18, 1356 "Basel earthquake, the most significant historic seismological event north of the Alps, destroyed the town of Basel, Switzerland."
October 18, 1386 Opening of the University of Heidelberg
October 18, 1561 Fourth Battle of Kawanakajima -- Takeda Shingen defeats Uesugi Kenshin in the climax of their ongoing conflicts.
October 18, 1648 Boston Shoemakers form first U.S. labor organization.
October 18, 1648 First US labor organization forms (Boston Shoemakers)
October 18, 1667 Brooklyn is chartered under the name Brueckelen by the governor of New Netherlands Mathias Nicolls
October 18, 1685 "Louis XIV of France revokes the Edict of Nantes, which has protected French Protestants."
October 18, 1685 "Louis XIV revokes Edict of Nantes, outlaws Protestantism"
October 18, 1767 "Boundary between Md & Pa, the Mason Dixon line, agreed upon"
October 18, 1767 "Mason-Dixon line, survey separating Maryland from Pennsylvania is completed."
October 18, 1775 African-American poet Phillis Wheatley freed from slavery.
October 18, 1776 "In a NY bar decorated with bird tail, customer orders ""cock tail"""
October 18, 1851 Herman Melville's Moby Dick is first published as The Whale by Richard Bentley of London.
October 18, 1860 "The Second Opium War finally ends at the Convention of Peking with the ratification of the Treaty of Tientsin, an unequal treaty."
October 18, 1867 United States takes possession of Alaska after purchasing it from Russia for $7.2 million. Celebrated annually in the state as Alaska Day.
October 18, 1867 US takes formal possession of Alaska from Russia ($7.2 million)
October 18, 1890 John Owen is first man to run 100 yd dash in under 10 seconds
October 18, 1892 First commercial long-distance phone line opens (Chicago-NY)
October 18, 1892 The First long distance phone call in the United States between Chicago and New York.
October 18, 1898 American flag raised in Puerto Rico
October 18, 1908 Belgium annexes Congo Free State
October 18, 1908 Belgium annexes the Congo Free State.
October 18, 1909 Comte de Lambert of France sets airplane altitude record of 300 m
October 18, 1912 Beginning of the first Balkan War
October 18, 1912 Italo-Turkish war ends
October 18, 1912 The First Balkan War begins.
October 18, 1924 University of Illinois halfback Red Grange scores four touchdowns in the first quarter of a game against the University of Michigan Wolverines.
October 18, 1925 "The Grand Ole Opry opens in Nashville, Tennessee."
October 18, 1929 "Women are considered ""Persons"" under Canadian law."
October 18, 1940 "HMS H.49,sunk off Texel island, Holland in North Sea by depth charges from German anti-submarine trawlers UJ.116 and UJ.118. On patrol off Dutch coast at time of threatened German invasion of Britain"
October 18, 1944 Adolf Hitler orders the establishment of a German national militia.
October 18, 1944 "Hitler orders the establishment of ""Volkssturm."" Boys between fifteen and eighteen and men between fifty and sixty are drafted into service. The Nazis have to mobilize replacements for 500,000 men."
October 18, 1944 Soviet troops invade Czechoslovakia during WW II
October 18, 1944 Soviet Union invades Czechoslovakia.
October 18, 1945 "A group of the Venezuelan Armed Forces, led by Mario Vargas, Marcos Prez Jimnez and Carlos Delgado Chalbaud, staged a coup d'ett against then president Isaas Medina Angarita, who was overthrown by the end of the day."
October 18, 1945 The USSR's nuclear program receives plans for the USA's plutonium bomb from Klaus Fuchs at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
October 18, 1954 Hurricane Hazel (3rd of 1954) becomes most severe to hit US
October 18, 1954 Texas Instruments announces the first Transistor radio.
October 18, 1955 Track & Field names Jesse Owens all-time track athlete
October 18, 1960 "In Britain, the News Chronicle & Daily Mail merge,"
October 18, 1960 The London Evening Star merges with the Evening News
October 18, 1962 Dr Watson (US) & Drs Crick & Wilkins (Britain) win Nobel Prize for Medicine for work in determining structure of DNA
October 18, 1962 US launches Ranger 5 for lunar impact; misses Moon
October 18, 1963 IOC votes Mexico City to host 1968 Olympics
October 18, 1967 Soviet Venera 4 becomes the first probe to send data back from Venus
October 18, 1967 The Soviet probe Venera 4 reaches Venus and becomes the first spacecraft to measure the atmosphere of another planet.
October 18, 1967 "Walt Disney's ""Jungle Book"" is released"
October 18, 1968 "Bob Beamon sets a world record of 8.90m in the long jump at the Mexico City games. This becomes the longest unbroken track and field record in history, standing for 23 years, and is later named by Sports Illustrated magazine as one of the five greatest sporting moments of the 20th century."
October 18, 1968 Circus Circus opens in Las Vegas
October 18, 1968 "The U.S. Olympic Committee suspends two black athletes for giving a ""black power"" salute during a victory ceremony at the Mexico City games."
October 18, 1969 Federal govt bans use of cyclamates artificial sweeteners
October 18, 1969 Number one hit on UK music charts - Bobby Gentry - I'll Never Fall In Love Again
October 18, 1969 Soyuz 8 returns to Earth
October 18, 1973 "Congress authorizes bi-centennial quarter, half-dollar & dollar coin"
October 18, 1977 German Autumn: a set of events revolving around the kidnapping of Hanns-Martin Schleyer and the hijacking of a Lufthansa flight by the Red Army Faction (RAF) comes to an end when Schleyer is executed and various RAF members allegedly commit suicide. The West German government states that it would never again negotiate with terrorists.
October 18, 1986 Number one hit on UK music charts - Nick Berry - Every Loser Wins
October 18, 1989 East German leader Erich Honecker resigns.
October 18, 1989 US 62nd manned space mission (Atlantis 5) launches into orbit
October 18, 1991 Azerbaijan declares independence from USSR.
October 18, 2003 "Bolivian Gas War: President Gonzalo Snchez de Lozada, is forced to resign and leave Bolivia."
October 18, 2005 Release date for Ensemble Studios computer game Age of Empires III
October 18, 2007 "After 8 years in exile, Benazir Bhutto returns to her homeland Pakistan. The same night, suicide attackers blow themselves up near Bhutto's convoy, killing over 100 in the cheering crowd, including 20 police officers. Bhutto escaped uninjured."
October 18, 2009 A boat with 76 migrant workers on board headed for Canada is seized by the Canadian Navy and RCMP off its west coast in the Pacific Ocean.
October 18, 2009 "A Rwandan doctor working in a French hospital is suspended after a nurse locates an Internet Interpol arrest warrant, accusing him of a 1994 ""genocide, war crimes""."
October 18, 2009 "At least 60 Taliban militants are killed in an ongoing offensive in South Waziristan, northwest Pakistan."
October 18, 2009 "Eight people are jailed in Hubei, China, for ""disrupting public order"" after 10,000 people participated in riots following the controversial death of a chef in June."
October 18, 2009 "Germany and Israel complain about a Bangkok museum billboard depicting a salute by Adolf Hitler beside the slogan ""Hitler is not dead""."
October 18, 2009 "Hurricane Rick strengthens to a Category 5 storm, becoming the strongest hurricane in a decade in the eastern Pacific Ocean."
October 18, 2009 Iranian state television says Britain was directly involved in the attack and intended it as a distraction from problems it faces in Afghanistan.
October 18, 2009 "Iraq accuses neighbouring countries of stealing sections of its national archives, including centuries-old documents."
October 18, 2009 "Jenson Button wins the 2009 Formula One World Championship in Interlagos, S?o Paulo, Brazil, by finishing fifth in the 2009 Brazilian Grand Prix."
October 18, 2009 Pishin bombing: Senior commanders of Iran's Revolutionary Guards are among 35 people killed in a suicide bombing in the southeast of the country.
October 18, 2009 Scotland Yard investigates a complaint about an article by Jan Moir in the UK's Daily Mail tabloid concerning her views on the death of Boyzone singer Stephen Gately.
October 18, 2009 Seven people are killed and 20 injured after gunmen open fire in a bar in Puerto Rico. (
October 18, 2009 The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) assists Indonesian and Malaysian agencies with two distressed boats.
October 18, 2009 The Australian state of Queensland declares a state of emergency after more than 50 wildfires burn out of control.
October 18, 2009 The Icelandic government says it has come to a new agreement with the governments of the Netherlands and the UK over the repaying of $5bn.
October 18, 2009 The Pakistani charge d'affaires is summoned after Iran says it has evidence the attack had been launched from Pakistani soil.
October 18, 2009 Two foreign aid workers Sharon Commins and Hilda Kawuki ? one Irish and one Ugandan ? working for the GOAL charity captured in Sudan's Darfur region more than three months ago are released.
October 18, 2009 Ukraine commences its first presidential election campaign since the 2004 Orange Revolution.
October 18, 2009 Yemen claims to have killed 18 Shia rebels in fighting in the north of the country.
What happened on October 18 - What happened on my birthday. Today in History. Dates In history
Visitors' Postings
October 18, 1955 Visitor posting - shens was born - USA
October 18, 1958 Visitor posting - Just Married: TOM & TYLITHA SETH
October 18, 1971 Visitor posting - David Hoare born London England - United Kingdom
October 18, 1987 Visitor posting - Zachary David Alexander Efron was born.
October 18, 1991 Visitor posting - The Great Taylor Norris was born - USA
October 18, 1992 Visitor posting - NARENDRAN S/O B RAGAVAN ASPIRINING TO BE A MECHANICAL ENGINEER - India [email protected]
October 18, 1998 Visitor posting - kayla born :) - Canada
October 18, 1999 Visitor posting - Austin born - USA
October 18, 2005 Visitor posting - Desiree Ava born to Billie Jo & Mantello. First Grand child for Brenda & Gary & Robert. - USA
October 18, 2011 Visitor posting - all that sports app finished being developed - United Kingdom [email protected]
2016 Peoples-History.com �
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Home › Top Stories › MAUI INTRODUCES "BIODIESEL" AT PUMP ›
MAUI INTRODUCES "BIODIESEL" AT PUMP
Submitted by Anonymous on Tue, 12/02/2003 - 00:00
By Edwin Tanji
WAILUKU, Maui (The Maui News, Dec. 1) - The Paia Chevron Service Station has become the first Chevron station in the country to offer a biodiesel blend to its customers - while offering it at the lowest price of any fuel for motor vehicles on Maui.
The "B20" fuel is selling at $2.29 a gallon – higher than the average cost of regular gas on Oahu but attractive to drivers on neighboring Maui.
It is a blend of 20 percent biodiesel and 80 percent petroleum diesel fuel that qualifies for both state and Maui County fuel tax exemptions.
Gas prices in Hawaii this week were as high as $2.39 on Kauai to a low of $1.88 on Oahu. The average cost of gas in Hawaii was $1.91, compared with the national average in the U.S. of $1.47.
"The real heroes are our state Legislature and Maui County Council," said Alec McBarnet, president of Maui Oil Co. and operator of the Paia Chevron. "Their foresight and commitment to biodiesel road tax exemptions have made it all possible to actually offer B20 at a competitive price."
The biodiesel is produced by Pacific Biodiesel, the Maui-based company that developed the process for converting waste cooking oil into diesel fuel. While it has been generally accepted as a suitable replacement for petroleum diesel, Pacific Biodiesel President Bob King said he still has more production than he has market for the environmentally friendly fuel.
For motorists with diesel-powered vehicles, there may have been some concerns about switching to the green fuel, including the inconvenience of having only one station in Kahului where the fuel can be bought.
Having the biodiesel blend available at a public pump, and the low price, should help to sell the B20 fuel, King said.
"B20 still offers significant environmental benefits and increased engine lubricity, and now it is available on weekends and evenings," he said.
He credited McBarnet and Maui Oil for agreeing to offer to carry the blend at a competitive price.
"The goal is to expand the market for biodiesel," he said. "We're making it easier for the customer to use the fuel."
King said Pacific Biodiesel produces about 12,000 gallons of biodiesel every month from recycled cooking grease on Maui. He also has put up a plant on Oahu that is producing 20,000 gallons of biodiesel monthly.
"We actually produce a little more fuel stock than we have customers. We had more product than market and we needed to expand the market," he said.
The key to the B20 product is the tax exemptions - a 50 percent exemption from state fuel taxes and a 100 percent exemption from Maui County. The exemptions are the first in the nation for biodiesel, according to Joe Jobe, executive director of the National Biodiesel Board. Jobe was on Maui in August to present an award to Maui County for its support of biodiesel.
The Maui News: www.mauinews.com
POOR LEADERSHIP LEAD TO CULTURE OF CORRUPTION FIJI: ACADEMIC
Tonga, New Zealand Ombudsmen Establish Close Working Relationship
South Korea Surpasses Japan As Top Tourist Market For Guam
Guam Education Department To Reduce ‘Unnecessary Costs’
BOUGAINVILLE FACTIONS TO MEET REGARDING PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE
Former CNMI Official Arrested On Corruption Charges
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Twitter: the next Big Thing?
While the media believes that Facebook is going to be the next big thing in Web Technology, the tech circles have started questioning that belief. These doubts arise from the recent user fatigue observed from the social networking websites, the increasing popularity of Twitter and few niggling problems in Facebook.
Twitter that started off as a micro blogging platform, has now started to encroach people's time from social media sites too. Facebook (and Orkut) provided us an opportunity to get into a conversation with your friends and peers. But unlike Twitter, you can interact with only one person at a time(that is, more like a email). But in Twitter, you get an opportunity to interact with all of your followers and thereby increasing the chances of a meaningful communication that happens real time but still thought provoking and intellectual. Twitter has brought its own blogging fatigue as Scoble recently reported in his blog. But I was still unconvinced since anything without an option to monetize is tough to succeed. But today's post in Problogger - PayperTweet showed that people will come with innovative ways to solve that too.
Mainstream Acceptance
An interesting thing is the acceptance that Twitter is being able to generate from people outside tech circles. For e.g. 10, Downing Street, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, etc. have their own Twitter accounts though it has not yet got the publicity like Facebook.
As usual, Twitter has not found a mention in any of the mainstream media. None of the politicians or news channels are using them though Twitter as a service is the most suitable technology for their mode of communication. Thankfully, Chennai redeems the respect for India by organizing the first Twitter Meet in India.
P.S: If you are curious to know about me more, you can follow me in Twitter @ http://twitter.com/robinsamuel
Update: Sorry, I fell for April Fool's Joke in Problogger. PayperTweet was a April fool's Joke.. :(
Ban Harbhajan for slapping Sreesanth
A Sport with Balls and Bats But with no Pitcher
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Up From The Depths/Demon Of Paradise (Roger Corman's Cult Classics)
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Up From The Depths/Demon Of Paradise
Director: Charles B. Griffith/Cirio H. Santiago
Cast: Sam Bottoms, Susanne Reed, Virgil Frye, Charles Howerton/Kathryn Witt, William Steis, Laura Banks, Frederick Bailey
The Movies:
Continuing to mine the Roger Corman catalogue under their Roger Corman Cult Classics line, Shout! Factory brings together a pair of underwater shockers lensed in the Philippines with the help of frequent Corman collaborator, Cirio H. Santiago during the heyday of Corman’s monster movie rip offs.
UP FROM THE DEPTHS:
Directed by Charles B. Griffith in 1979 and produced by Santiago, this film is set in Hawaii (well, the Philippines doubling for Hawaii, at least) and revolves around a fancy tourist resort run by the ‘business first’ Mr. Forbes (Kedric Wolfe) who cares about very little outside of keeping the steady flow of booze guzzling tourists coming, because as a wise man once said, tourists are money. The thorn in Forbes’ side, however, is a rum crazy pirate type named Earl (Virgil Frye) who, with help from his sideburn loving nephew, Greg (Sam Bottoms), scams his guests out of their cash by taking them on treasure hunting excursions out off the coast line a ways. Much to Forbes’ dismay, his gorgeous young assistant, Rachel (Susanne Reed), has got the hots for Greg
This tropical paradise quickly turns into a living hell, however, as a massive dorsal-finned fish is forced out of the ocean depths by changing currents and heads closer to the shore. He’s not only hungry but is bound and determined to eat as many tourists and foxy female scuba divers and aspiring nude models as possible. Forbes runs damage control as best by offering a reward to anyone who can kill the beast, but a scientist named Dr. Whiting (Charles Howerton) is intent on bringing the beast in alive.
While the cover art and opening scene would have you believe that Up From The Depths is to be taken with deadly seriousness, once you’re about ten minutes into the picture you find out that the joke’s on you. Obviously played for laughs, the film doesn’t just deal in stereotypes, it relishes them. Not only do we get the typical middle aged couple who can’t do anything but argue with one another but we get a brainy scientist fighting against corporate interests, a drunken sea captain, and even a Japanese guy who yells ‘Bonzai’ and who wields a samurai sword. The film takes these stereotypes and flaunts them, making no qualms whatsoever about trying to play to the politically correct crowd.
Oddly enough, as frequent as the humor is, the kill scenes, of which there are quite a few, are played pretty straight, complete with blood saturated water and dismembered body parts. It’s hardly and out and out gore-fest but this, coupled with the copious topless female nudity definitely earns the film it’s R-rating. The film moves at a good pace and while the horrible dubbing makes it pretty groan inducing at times, it’s a fun take on the killer fish film and one worth a look for those with an affinity for low budget drive-in pictures.
DEMON OF PARADISE:
The second film on the disc put Santiago behind the camera as director this time. Shot in 1987, Demon Of Paradise once again finds the Philippines doubling for Hawaii, and is also set around a resort hotel. Things are going just fine until a bunch of fishermen decide to use some dynamite to help them bring in the big catch. The ensuing explosions free a previously dormant man-fish (a low budget Creature From The Black Lagoon type) who heads up to the surface and literally rocks their boat.
Of course, with the so called Paradise Resort nearby, run by a nasty woman named Ms. Cahill (Laura Banks), it only stands to reason that our fish-man is going to head that way and wreak havoc, which is exactly what he does. The locals figure that they can do a ceremonial dance around a fire in order to appease the monster, superstitious types that they are, but it’s to no avail and before you know it, it’s up to a scientist named Annie Essex (Kathryn Witt) and the new sheriff in town, Keefer (William Steis), to put a stop to the monster before he kills off what’s left of the local tourist population. Of course, as the two work together they discover their differences, but also their mutual attraction for one another and a hokey romantic subplot kinda-sorta evolves, but it doesn’t really affect much. A few other supporting characters pop up – a reporter named Ike (Frederick Bailey), a model with a drug problem named Gobby (Lesley Huntly) and a snooty British photographer named Ted (Paul Holmes) – but most of the plot revolves around the two do-gooders as they try to set things right.
This film is pretty much a ‘straight’ version of the first one with a fish-man substituted for a giant fish. Aside from that, the plots are very similar, even if this one throws in some nasty criminal types towards the last half in an attempt to make things more interesting. It doesn’t work. Again we have a film that deals in character stereotypes, no one here shows any real character development or range at all. The performances are fine considering what’s called for and the female cast members are attractive enough that we can overlook a few awkward moments that occur at their expense.
This leaves the monster and the carnage he causes to pick up the slack, and in this department, Demon Of Paradise more or less phones it in. As mentioned, the creature here resembles the Creature From the Black Lagoon quite a bit, though someone has glued some seaweed to his shoulders and back in some sort of attempt to differentiate him. It sort of works, in that the monster somehow manages to make lots of things blow up and seems intent on attacking anytime, anywhere, and under any condition (in spite of a scientists proclamation that he’s nocturnal our creature seems to have no problem taking on all comers in broad daylight). Like the first feature on the disc, it’s not exactly a good movie but it is a fun one that’ll scratch that B-movie itch so long as you’re predisposed to appreciate such things in the first place.
Video/Audio/Extras:
Up From the Depths looks pretty good in this 1.78.1 anamorphic widescreen transfer, considerably better than the previous fullframe offerings ever did. Colors are quite bright and bold without looking oversaturated and skin tones look decent as well. There’s a bit of print damage here and there and the occasional vertical scratch appears on the picture, but all in all, the movie is in pretty good shape and fans should be pleased. Demon Of Paradise is pretty comparable, in that it took looks quite good despite a healthy coat of grain and some mild but noticeable print damage scattered throughout. For whatever reason, some interlacing is evident in the second feature.
Each film gets the Dolby Digital Mono treatment, there are no subtitles or alternate language tracks of any kind provided but thankfully both films sound clean and clear enough that there aren’t any issues there. A bit of hiss pops up now and again if you really listen for it but generally the levels are nicely balanced and the dialogue perfectly audible.
This disc isn’t quite as stacked with extras as previous Shout! Factory Corman discs have been in the past, but there are trailers for both features, a few radio spots, and trailers for other upcoming and previously released Corman films (including Caged Heat), animated menus and chapter selection. You also have the option to watch both films as a grindhouse double feature complete with trailers before and between the features. Inside the disc is an insert containing DVD credits and a list of other Corman DVDs already available.
These aren’t the cream of the Corman crop but both pictures are a lot of good, trashy fun. Plenty of monsters, a barrage of bare breasts and a fair bit of gore make up for the fact (or, more likely, enhance in!) that both films are goofy and derivative and made on the fast and cheap. Shout!’s presentation is a good one and if there aren’t tons of extras here, the trailers are a blast.
Want more information? Check out the Shout! Factory website by clicking here!
DVD And Blu-ray Reviews T-Z
Tags : demon of paradise, dvd review, roger corman, shout factory, up from the depths
Dinosaurus! (Kino Lorber) Blu-ray Review
No still gallery?
https://i.postimg.cc/d1mjMcNw/dinosaurus-60-babe.jpg
John Bernhard 01-18-2020 09:54 PM
Thanks for the review, Ian. Coincidentally, I was just watching this one last night, but...
chriszilla 01-18-2020 05:41 PM
Violence In A Women’s Prison
A lot of that is Ursula Flores...
Consuela is whiny and annoying. Albina is a bitch from Hell...
bflocket 01-15-2020 08:55 AM
The Peanut Butter Solution (Severin Films) Blu-ray Review
"It definitely takes place in Canada."
That sums up this review. :cuckoo:
Alison Jane 01-14-2020 08:19 PM
House By The Cemetery (Blue Underground) Blu-ray Review
Nice bowtie, Fulci.
Matt H. 01-13-2020 10:18 AM
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PCOD+ Project Outputs
Home/Tools/Population Consequences of Disturbance/PCOD+ Project Outputs
PCOD+ Project Outputsadmin2019-12-05T14:42:38+00:00
In this page we will include the main outputs from the PCoD+ project as these become available, including Journal Articles and Working Group Meeting Reports.
Outputs & Reports
Wilson et al., 2019 – A decision framework to identify populations that are most vulnerable to the population level effects of disturbance
Pirotta, et al. 2018 – Understanding the Population Consequences of Disturbance – Ecology and Evolution
Booth,etal. 2017 – Identifying monitoring priorities for PCoD
Online Expert Elicitation Course
PCoD Related Publications
Here are a few examples of publications and reports from various researchers worldwide that are related to PCoD:
Booth et al. (2016). Using an interim PCoD protocol to assess the effects of disturbance associated with US Navy exercises on marine mammal populations.
Harwood & Booth. (2016). The application of an interim PCoD (PCoD Lite) protocol and its extension to other marine mammal populations and sites.
Fleishman et al. (2016). Monitoring population-level responses of marine mammals to human activities.
Christiansen & Lusseau (2015). Linking Behavior to Vital Rates to Measure the Effects of Non‐Lethal Disturbance on Wildlife.
King et al. (2015). An interim framework for assessing the population consequences of disturbance.
Rolland et al. (2015). Health of North Atlantic right whales over three decades: from individual health to demographic and population health trends.
Pirotta et al. (2015). Predicting the effects of human developments on individual dolphins to understand potential long-term population consequences.
TNO (2015). Cumulative effects of impulsive underwater sound on marine mammals.
New et al. (2014). Using short-term measures of behaviour to estimate long-term fitness of southern elephant seals.
New et al. (2013). Using energetic models to investigate the survival and reproduction of beaked whales.
Schick et al. (2013). Estimating resource acquisition and at-sea body condition of a marine predator.
Schick et al. (2013). Using Hierarchical Bayes to Understand Movement, Health, and Survival in the Endangered North Atlantic Right Whale.
National Research Council (2005). Marine Mammal Populations and Ocean Noise; Determining When Noise Causes Biologically Significant Effects.
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Should Jeter defend A-Rod?
Posted by Anthony Stalter (02/03/2009 @ 2:00 pm)
In the wake of Joe Torre’s new book set to hit the shelves on Tuesday, Wallace Matthews of Newsday writes that Derek Jeter should step up and publicly defend Alex Rodriguez as his teammate and captain.
No one, of course, tells Derek Jeter what to do, and I don’t presume to try. But it is my considered opinion that Jeter can hide for only so long behind his stock answer, “I haven’t read the book yet.”
The book is out Tuesday. Time to start reading. And he doesn’t even have to read it to come out and say, simply: “Alex is my teammate. Alex is our guy. Everyone in this clubhouse stands behind him.”
And that has to include the captain. Because that’s what captains do.
And it’s the captain’s job to have his teammates’ backs, every one of them, even if it means taking a stand against a former manager and mentor. Torre isn’t a Yankee anymore, but Rodriguez is. The Yankees can win without Torre but not without A-Rod. For the good of his team, Captain Jeter had better choose which side of this argument he is on in a hurry.
And there would be no better time for him to announce his position than today, when Torre comes to town to kick off a media blitz designed to sell whatever odd copies of the book haven’t already been pre-ordered.
Today would be a fine day for Jeter to make himself available’ to the media, just to let everyone – and one guy in particular – know he’s got A-Rod’s back.
I agree to a point. As a leader, Jeter should stand up and defend his teammates and back them whenever they’re publicly criticized like A-Rod was in Torre’s book. But nobody knows what has really gone on in the Yankees’ clubhouse over the years and therefore nobody has the right to tell Jeter whom he should and shouldn’t defend.
Maybe A-Rod is the ultimate prick and he has already pissed Jeter off too many times to count. Maybe Jeter has already made an effort to back the guy and it’s come back to bit him in the ass. The point is, we don’t know what happens inside a clubhouse or what Jeter’s motivation is behind backing or not backing a teammate. And Jeter is a consummate pro so I wouldn’t question his motivates either way in a situation like this.
Follow the Scores Report editors on Twitter @clevelandteams and @bullzeyedotcom.
Posted in: MLB
Tags: "The Yankee Years", A-Fraud, Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Derek Jeter vs. Alex Rodriguez, Joe Torre, Joe Torre rips Alex Rodriguez, Joe Torre's book, Joe Torre's book Alex Rodriguez
Vaccaro: Torre ruined his legacy
Posted by Anthony Stalter (01/26/2009 @ 11:00 am)
Mike Vaccaro of the New York Post writes that Joe Torre has ruined his legacy in the wake of his new book, which trashes Yankee management and takes shots his former players like Alex Rodriguez.
This book of yours, “The Yankee Years,” is that classy, Joe? Does it dignify what those 12 remarkable years were to baseball, to this city and, not incidentally, to your career? Was it necessary to air the fact that his teammates call Alex Rodriguez – an awfully easy target, by the way, Joe, and also a guy who won two MVPs while playing for you – “A-Fraud,” or to liken him to the crazed Jennifer Jason Leigh character in “Single White Female”?
Seriously, Joe. Did you even see “Single White Female”?
Why would you take shots at Brian Cashman? All he did during that lengthy post-2000 time, when you weren’t winning championships, was defend you exhaustively – to fans, to the press, to fellow Yankee executives, to various and sundry Steinbrenners, to your old front-office pal Randy Levine.
You never much cared to admit this, Joe, but Cashman was your boss. He could have sold you out. He didn’t.
Cashman deserved better, Joe. So did the Yankees. And, most important, so did you. You transformed yourself as a Yankee, earned yourself a certain Hall of Fame plaque.
There were lots of people who thought you were exiled wrongly in 2007, who winced when you hinted at a possible grudge with the Yankees, who figured, no, Joe is bigger than that. Joe is better than that.
Were we really that wrong, Joe? Really?
If you wanted to hurt the Yankees, Joe, understand this: Yesterday at Legends Field in Tampa, workers were manicuring the field, watering the lawn, getting ready for another spring training once the Super Bowl leaves town.
At the minor-league complex just down Dale Mabry Boulevard, kids were working out. Jorge Posada was said to have taken some swings. Derek Jeter will be here this week.
The Yankees have moved on, Joe. Isn’t it time you did, too?
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again – this doesn’t seem like Joe’s style.
I haven’t read the book, but already this doesn’t seem like a classy way to go about things. No matter how wronged Torre believes he was by the Yankees, you always take the high road. Most people in New York were going to remember Joe as the World Series-winning manager in pinstripes – and they still might. But this book definitely casts a shadow over Torre’s great career. Instead of remembering how great of a manager he was in the Bronx, people are going to point to when he called Alex Rodriguez, “A-Fraud” in his book. Is that how Joe wanted to be remembered?
Tags: "The Yankee Years", A-Fraud, Alex Rodriguez, Brian Cashman, Joe Torre, Joe Torre rips Alex Rodriguez, Joe Torre rips Brian Cashman in new book, Joe Torre's book, Joe Torre's new book
Joe Torre blasts A-Rod and Yankee management in new book
Dodgers’ skipper Joe Torre decided to write a book. And then ripped his former employer and at least one former player in said book.
In an explosive new book called “The Yankee Years,” Torre gets most personal in his attacks against Alex Rodriguez, who he says was called “A-Fraud” by his teammates after he developed a “Single White Female”-like obsession with team captain Derek Jeter and asked for a personal clubhouse assistant to run errands for him.
Torre, who left the Yankees and became manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers after the 2007 season, says Cashman never told the brass that the manager wanted a two-year deal and instead remained silent during Torre’s tense final sitdown with the bosses.
The 477-page tell-all, which The Post purchased from a city bookstore last week, is written by co-author Tom Verducci, a longtime Sports Illustrated reporter.
Torre recounts his 12-year career in New York through interviews. It is being published by Doubleday.
Torre spent years trying to bring out a winning performance from A-Rod, the highest-paid player in baseball, which from all reported accounts included a lot of hand-holding and battling the insecurities and demons Rodriguez struggles with.
And while the Bombers would win four world championships under Torre’s watch by 2000, there were years of tension over management’s choice of players and the growing silence between him and Yankee brass.
Torre’s exit in the fall of 2007 came after a 20-minute meeting over his contract with Steinbrenner and other Yankee officials at the team’s Tampa, Fla., office.
At the time, the skipper was coming off a tough and highly scrutinized season. He was seeking a two-year contract with the possibility of a buyout.
Boy, how bad did the Yankee front office brass piss Torre off if he was compelled enough to write a 477-page tell-all? Joe doesn’t seem to be the type that would air secrets about his former club publicly, but this is a man that believes he wasn’t treated right in the end and obviously this is his retaliation.
And once again A-Rod gets blasted, although this has to be the worst. Having your former manager call out your love affair with Derek Jeter? Ouch.
Tags: "The Yankee Years", A-Fraud, Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Joe Torre, Joe Torre rips Alex Rodriguez, Joe Torre's book, Joe Torre's book Alex Rodriguez
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Glastonbury & Street >
Passenger services >
Somerset Central Centenary, 1954 >
43201 on SCR centenary train, Glastonbury, 28-08-54 (4)
MR 3F No. 43201 - originally S&D No. 64 - is at the head of the Somerset Central Railway centenary train at Glastonbury. Saturday 28 August 1954.
The picture shows the wheel splasher which higher resolution versions of the image show to be carrying an S&DJR crest.
Photo by David Milton, ref. 1/20. Copyright S&DRT. Our ref. WSHSD_2015_41_361.
Image width 800 pixels, available for immediate download. For personal use only. Publishing by any means, including social media, is prohibited. Higher resolutions of this image are available for personal use; please see photo enquiries page.
We Also Recommend for 43201 on SCR centenary train, Glastonbury, 28-08-54 (4):
43201 on SCR centenary train, Glastonbury, 28-08-54
MR 3F No. 43201 - originally S&D No. 64 - is seen at the head of the Somerset Central Railway centenary train at Glastonbury. Saturday 28 August...
MR 3F No. 43201 - originally S&D No. 64 - is at the head of the Somerset Central Railway centenary train at Glastonbury. Saturday 28 August...
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Gordon Beall in 1978
W. Gordon Beall, B.A.Sc (E.E.) P.ENG MBA In December 2008, the RRHA family lost member “Gordie” Beall to cancer. Gordie played for the Rams from 1976 to 1978 and for Team Blue in several annual RRHA hockey games. Below is an excerpt from one of the last status updates he sent us approximately a month before his passing …
“One of my goals is to be at the Alumni game in 2009. You gotta set goals as it helps with the treatment.”
Those of us who played with Gordie will always remember him setting a fine lifestyle example, his easy going temperament, his dedication and strong work ethic. Away from the rink, these qualities and the unconditional support of his wife of 31 years, Sara (aka Sandra), enabled Gordon to become a very successful P.Eng and retire at 40 years of age. Gordon and Sandra were dating when he played for the Rams.
Gordie still lives in the minds and hearts of his team mates and in his memory, they are pooling some money together to purchase a nameplate to be placed on the back of a seat at the new Mattamy Sports Centre (Maple Leaf Gardens).
Please fill out the form below to send your $35 donation to Brian Shantz at the university if you wish to contribute to this cause. Total cost of the dedicated seat is $500, all of which (plus any extra collected), goes to the current Ryerson Rams Men’s Hockey Team.
GORDON BEALL SEAT DONATIONS
The donation form has been removed. We’ve reached our goal!
Gordon’s name plate looks like this …
Gordon Beall, B.A.Sc (E.E.) P.ENG MBA
Rams Goalie – 1976-1978
Section E6, Row D, Seat Number 3
Franklin R. Sheffield Jr. $35
Don Wilson $35
George Cowie $35
Mr. Digby Bourke $35
Samuel P. Smith $35
Brian Jones $35
Andy Geracimo $35
John Saunders $35
Doug R. Howe $35
Michael Protulipac $35
Steve Parnham $50
Dave Monteith $35
Mike Daikoff $35
Don DesJardine $35
Total $505
Target $500
Count Down $5.00+
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BH & EU
BH TOURISM
W&N
Interview: Exclusive Interview with H.E. Ambassador of France Guillaume Rousson
Post Tagged with: "tolls"
How much Money did BH Drivers pay for Tolls?
Drivers in BiH paid a total of 637 million BAM for road maintenance in the last three years, but less than 445 million BAM were actually used for that purpose, as reported from Transparency International in BiH. The analysis conducted by Transparency International in BiH showed that a total of […]
How the Funds collected from Tolls were divided?
Revenues from indirect taxes amounted to four billion and 266 million BAM in the first seven months of this year, which is by 357 million BAM or 9.14 % more in comparison to the same period of 2017, as stated by the Head of Department for Communications and International Cooperation […]
Half of the Money from the Sale of Fuel goes to the State?
The burden on the price of fuel at retail fuel stations in BiH is around 50 %, according to data of the Indirect Taxation Authority (ITA BiH). The burden of 50 % in BiH is somewhat smaller than the burden in majority of other European countries. For example, taxes make […]
28 Million BAM of Revenue from Tolls distributed to Entities
The Governing Board of ITA adopted the decision on the temporary distribution of revenues from tolls for motorways that were collected on the Single Account in the amount of 28 million BAM. These funds will be distributed in accordance with the current law regulations, and a total of 59 % […]
Prices of Registrations of Passenger Cars in B&H to increase from this Week
With the amendments to Regulation that is regulating the price of toll in the vehicle registration, citizens of FB&H will pay about 15 BAM more for the registration of their passenger cars from Monday. The basic fee for all vehicles is 30 BAM, and the correction coefficient will be depending […]
Sarajevo Times interview:
Interview: Vanja Lisac is a Famous Photographer whose Client List includes L’Oréal, Italian Vogue, Marie Claire
[caption id="attachment_154861" align="aligncenter" width="411"] I always portray women as strong, they’re never victims,” says Vanja Lisac. Behind her, is one of the many evocative images from her solo exhibition ‘Faces’, hanging at Jeliceva Gallery until December 23.[/caption] SARAJEVO, Old Town —seated on her living room couch in black leggings and a » read more
Miralem Pjanic reveals His Life Story in an Exclusive Interview with Sarajevo Times
Fahrudin Pjanic was certain that the war was coming to Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), and as a footballer of football
Bosnian Presidency aware of the Decision of the NATO Committee
Bosnia-Herzegovina’s Presidency Chairman and Democratic Front party leader Zeljko Komsic told Dnevni Avaz news
Free Public Transportation to be provided for Residents of Sarajevo during Air Pollution?
Sarajevo authorities announced here on Friday that free public transportation will be provided for citizens in a
Mountain Rescue Service sends Important Notice to Visitors of Mountains in Bosnia
Mountain Rescue Service – Sarajevo Station appeals to all visitors of mountains to have adequate equipment
Company producing Weapons in Bosnia generated 117 Percent more Profit
Igman Company from the city of Konjic, the largest state-owned company in the field of dedicated industry,
Real GDP Growth in the third quarter of 2019 in Bosnia amounts to 2.6 Percent
The real GDP growth in the third quarter of 2019, compared to the same quarter of the previous year, amounted
Two Million Cubic Meters of Wood stolen from Forests in Bosnia-Herzegovina Annually
Bosnia-Herzegovina, like other countries in the former Yugoslavia, is covered with the greatest natural
What do British Defense Ministry Archives reveal about Srebrenica Genocide?
In early January 2020, media in Serbia and Republika Srpska entity reported the sensational news that the
New Construction Season could bring almost twice as many Construction Sites in Bosnia
According to the Agency for Statistics of Bosnia- Herzegovina, the new construction season could bring almost
Savings of Residents in Republika Srpska Entity hit Record
Savings of Republika Srpska entity (RS) residents, including current accounts, amount to 3 billion and 417
Analysis: Relations between Bosnia and Croatia after new President Zoran Milanovic
A Croatian member of the European Parliament and its rapporteur on the Western Balkans, Tonino Picula, has said
“Ideal Day” Smart Assistant Application won best at EYA Impact Weekend in Sarajevo
“Interio” and the first “Gast Fest” to be held in Skenderija in March
“Pitching your Product” Workshop successfully held
#WikiGapBiH edit-a-thon: Closing the Wikipedia gender gap Today in Sarajevo
15 years of experience: SPARK hosted Gillian Downey
Bosnian Presidency aware of the Decision of the NATO Committee https://t.co/g6pj4ekJ0D
Free Public Transportation to be provided for Residents of Sarajevo during Air Pollution? https://t.co/aCU0Ky2fNn
Mountain Rescue Service sends Important Notice to Visitors of Mountains in Bosnia https://t.co/V9qdFt5FGP
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Text Alive!
Text Alive! is a free, semester-long arts integration program that brings Shakespeare’s plays to life through performance-based teaching strategies.
Students and teachers develop their knowledge and understanding of Shakespeare through a series of workshops exploring acting, language, and theatrical design. Then students apply their knowledge by rehearsing and producing a scene from one of Shakespeare’s plays. Text Alive! culminates with a performance of an entire Shakespeare play on stage at the Shakespeare Theatre Company.
Public school English and Theatre teachers for grades 9-12 in D.C., Maryland and Virginia are invited to apply.
Text Alive! Fall 2019: Hamlet
Important Dates and Events for Text Alive! Hamlet
10-14 (depending on bell schedule) classroom workshops will take place between September 4 and December 14, 2019
Dates: August 27, September 24, October 22 and November 19, 2019
Times: Tuesdays from 4:30–6:30 p.m.
Location: STC Education Studio, 516 8th St. SE, Washington, DC 20003
Text Alive! Student Performance
Time: 9 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. for participants; performance begins at 10 a.m.
Location: Sidney Harman Hall 610 F St. NW 20004 or The Michael R. Klein Theatre 450 7th St. NW 20004 (TBD)
FREE FOR ALL!- Hamlet; Please join us this summer for FREE FOR ALL where you and you students can see STC’s most recent production of Hamlet for FREE!
Time: Tuesday-Thursday 7:30pm, Friday 8:00pm, and Saturday-Sunday 2:00pm and 8:00pm
Location: Sidney Harman Hall 610 F St. NW 20004
Application deadline is July 1, 2019!
Text Alive! Spring 2020: Much Ado About Nothing
Important Dates and Events for Text Alive! Much Ado About Nothing
10-14 (depending on bell schedule) classroom workshops will take place between February 4 and May 16, 2020
Dates: January 28, February 25, March 24, and April 21, 2020
SHAKESPEARIENCE Student Matinee
Time: 10 a.m.–1 p.m.
Application deadline is November 1, 2019!
Through Text Alive! workshops students will:
Participate fully in an active exploration of the plot, themes, and characters of a Shakespeare play.
Analyze and interpret Shakespeare’s text as an actor.
Create characters through physical and vocal choices.
Make creative choices as a theatrical designer.
Collaborate as an ensemble in a rehearsal process which culminates in a performance.
Identify with the work of other students from a variety of diverse backgrounds.
We offer this program to enhance your existing curriculum and to help students develop a deeper, more immediate connection to the works of William Shakespeare. We also provide all the necessary materials, including teacher curriculum guides, classroom activities and scripts.
This dynamic collaboration between student, classroom teacher and teaching artist includes these successive events:
10 in-class workshops: All workshops are led by STC Teaching Artists.
4 Professional Development Workshops for Teachers: Classroom teachers will attend four mandatory workshops at the STC rehearsal studios. These sessions are designed to build confidence and skills for teaching Shakespeare. They focus on the historical context of the specified play and provide a variety of lesson plans and strategies for teaching Shakespeare. Dinner is provided.
SHAKESPEARIENCE Student Matinee : All participating students and teachers will attend a matinee performance of STC’s production. Subsidized tickets are provided for this event.
Text Alive! Student Performance: Students will perform their scene as part of the whole play before an audience of family, friends and peers on stage at STC.
“I love the fact that we could take a scene that happened centuries ago and make it relevant in today’s time.”
– Jessica, Thomas Wooten High School (MD)
“The story came together and made a lot more sense when we started to act it out.”
– Susanna, Betheda Chevy Chase High School (MD)
“TA! built confidence and appreciation for something that at first I didn’t like or understand.”
– Robert, West Potomac High School (VA)
“I can honestly say I no longer hate Shakespeare and I don’t think I could want a better skill than that. I gained such a great understanding about each of the characters and what each of the technical elements can bring to the play. I never thought I would be able to understand Shakespeare’s language at such a great depth.”
– Maria, Thomas Edison High School (VA)
“[TA!] helped me appreciate Shakespeare more. I’ve only ever read Shakespeare in English and that’s a drag because no one has any enthusiasm for it. This has gotten me psyched for Shakespeare.”
– Emily, George C. Marshall High School (VA)
“Producing a scene helped me relate to the play by bringing the scene to life. By doing this, it made the work more realistic and I could see how I would be able to react to it if it were me.”
– Nestor Vazquez, Parkdale High School
“After getting a deeper understanding of the characters, I realized they were very similar to me: teenagers dealing with romantic and platonic relationships, peer pressure, and loyalty.”
– Nora Sands, Albert Einstein High School
“I have learned how to understand Shakespeare’s language. I have also learned how to break down the lines paraphrase them to get the meaning.”
– Tiona Rollerson, Thurgood Marshall Academy
“Seeing my classmates—real, living people that I know—delivering the lines made Shakespeare’s work seem more human. I understood characters’ motivations and characteristics better when watching my peers portray them.”
– Julia McMurry, Albert Einstein High School
“I have conquered my fear of public speaking.”
– Synquawna Claiborne, Charles Flowers High School
Program Sponsors:
C. Maury Devine
Julie M. Feinsilver
Mark & Carol Hyman Fund
The Jacob and Charlotte Lehrman Foundation
Patrick Michael McMurphy Memorial Foundation
The Morningstar Foundation
Nora Roberts Foundation
Verizon Foundation
Artist in the Classroom: Workshops & Residencies
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Hey JR~~~ John Ritter JR ritter@interserf.net The BJM I kept is a 1942 issue for those non salts that is translated to Blue Jackets Manual, published by the U. S. Naval Institute as the bible for sailors. It thought you everything you needed to know except how to tailor uniforms and pick up gals.
I agree with Charlie about the "V" in CV! The first two real carriers the Saratoga and the Lexington were build on Cruiser hulls that were buing built at Newport News. The number cruisers were limited by a treaty after the end of WW I and the navy has the smarts to convert them during the building process to carriers. The "C" came from being designed from a cruiser hull and has stuck. From Charlie's list the CV's and CVN's come after all the CVS's were taken out of service and indicates that the airwing has both an attack and anit-submarine functional capability although the ASW guys are considered stepchildren to the fighter and attack squadrons.
The Hornet CV-8 was commanded by Captain Marc. A. Mitscher who went on to serve as a true hero during the war and also was the early mentor of Admiral A. (31 knot) Burke who later became CNO during the Eisenhower administration.
Staten Island Web® Forums Index.
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Speaking of Spain
Speaking of Spain Blog
Radical Recipes
The Monk
A Short History of Democracy in Spain
You may be forgiven for thinking that the terms in the title of this short post are mutually exclusive. Particularly if you have been listening to any of the absurdities spouted by politicians these last few days.
In the aftermath of the 2015 local elections, it appears everything is up for grabs - including truth - and the sight of politicians salivating publicly in their lust for power, or resorting to defamation and libel as they see power slipping though their podgy fingers, is enough to make one despair and turn aside. But hold on, the story is not over yet...
A Clash of Values
The fanatic struggle for power in Madrid is bringing out the best and worst in people. With Espe Aguirre's ego dented and the threat of being ousted by a group of what she calls "bolsheviks micro-funded online and renting cheap offices in the capital", her once rock-steady boat in the centre of Spain has been dutifully upturned.
And its precisely the figure head of Manuela Carmona that appears to be doing the rocking, merely by offering herself up as a candidate free from corruption, as someone that cycles to work rather than rides in a limousine, someone free from any manipulation of the media, no history of dismantling public services and no history of speaking without thinking first.
Two of the office lawyers shot by right-wing militants are buried.
But it's not just what Manuela has not done that is important, it's what she has done. Manuela Carmena - has always been a defender of workers rights. As an active lawyer she was arrested under Franco, fighting for the rights of the oppressed. She co-founded the lawyers office in Madrid that fought for workers rights - the very same office that went down in history as Black Monday
On the 27 jan. 1977, as the transition to "democracy" limped painfully forward, the office of Manuela Carmona at Calle Atocha 55 was invaded by right wing armed militants. They shot nine people. 6 died.
2015: May. Espe Aguirre - sinking in her own pile of excrement - accused Manuela of being part of a threat to "democracy" and offered to lead a coalition of all other parties to save Spain from the biggest threat to western democracy: Manuela Carmona and her political party - Ahora Madrid.
It is difficult not to conclude that Espe is - once more - playing the manipulative politician here, or - like Thatcher in her final days - she is mentally unstable. As someone who once worked in a psychiatric institution, my professional opinion is that were she to be brought to me for diagnosis, I would have her incarcerated immediately and placed in an isolation ward - for the safety of the general public.
Street demos in Madrid against the shootings in 1977
Democracy in Spain
So what do we mean when we sling the word "democracy" around? Well, it would not be unreasonable to define it as a form of political representation that encourages participation from citizens, rather than passivity. That it means giving all people a voice rather than always speaking for them, and it means honesty, transparency and accountability. Perhaps most important of all, it means speaking from an informed point of view as opposed to making up facts on the spur of the moment to suit your own agenda.
When Aguirre was questioned where she got the idea that Ahora Madrid would be establishing "soviets in the barrios of Madrid", she had to admit she had never read their political program at all.
As an old an venerated politician once reminded us, the questions we should ask when talking about democracy are: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?"
I would add to this just one more: And have you been taught to read?
Follow @GazpachoMonk
Available from Amazon
And Watch The Tortilla Intro Video here...
Why Orwell is essential to understanding Spain today. More here
The Ambulance Man and the Spanish Civil War (2nd Ed)
The Book HERE
Spain 1936: The Silenced Revolution
Did Laurie Lee Lie? Read the two part investigation.
Subscribe in itunes to the Free Podcast: Speaking of Spain or listen on the site.
Choose Your Tapa
Apps For An Easy Life
Best Books On Spain
Hacienda And Taxes
Photo Galerias
Select Sites....
The Artichoke Adventures
Con Jamón Spain
Spain Uncovered Podcast
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Variety 566077991
Being a millennial could be hazardous to your health
They suffer higher rates of hypertension and high cholesterol than earlier generations.
By Sarah Gantz Philadelphia Inquirer
December 11, 2019 — 2:51pm
The health of millennials is deteriorating more rapidly than older generations’ did, and that could have a devastating effect on the economy, according to a new report by Moody’s Analytics and the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association.
The report paints a dismal picture of how the 2009 economic recession affected millennials’ health.
“This is going to be a very negative, self-reinforcing cycle, and we need to break it,” said Mark Zandi, a chief economist for Moody’s.
Now ages 23 to 38, millennials suffer from higher rates of physical ailments, such as hypertension and high cholesterol, as well as behavioral health problems such as depression when compared with the generation before them.
If the trend continues, millennials could have shorter life expectancy than Generation X. Greater health needs could drive up health spending by 33% compared with Generation X, researchers estimated.
A compromised ability to work could lead to higher unemployment rates and lower worker productivity. In the most adverse projection, millennials could expect to lose more than $4,500 a year in per capita income compared with Generation X at the same age, according to the report.
Those who are already struggling would be hit hardest, “potentially exacerbating instances of income inequality and contributing to a vicious cycle of even greater prevalence of behavioral and physical health conditions,” the report’s authors wrote.
So how did a generation that is often chided for its obsession with wellness and self-care get so unhealthy? Economic prosperity and health are closely linked, and millennials came of age at a time of economic crisis, Zandi said.
Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic. Meanwhile, older millennials were entering the workforce saddled with student loan debt and unable to find jobs. Those who found work started at a low salary and have since struggled to advance their pay.
Millennials now have an average net worth of $90,000, well below the $130,000 of Generation X at the same age.
“Ten years in, many of the millennials are struggling to catch up,” Zandi said.
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Archive for the nyc Category
Monozid/Bootblacks Split 7”
Posted in 2000s, blues, bootblacks, monozid, NDW, nyc, post-punk, punk on January 3, 2011 by Frankie Teardrop
I have some killer archival posts to kick off the new year (starting this afternoon), but everyone knows that modern artists need love too! First things first, I’d like to pass on a free 7” from two chums of mine from two different lands. Here’s a blistering 7” split from Bootblacks (a local NYC blues-punk outfit reminiscent of The Gun Club) and Monozid (hard hitting German post-punk with a hint of NDW). You get two tracks per band with this release! This is Bootblacks’ first appearance on record, while Monozid have a handful of releases dating back to their debut CD-R in 2006.
You can often find these two bands playing shows together throughout Europe and the United States, so be sure to keep your eyes peeled for both bands in the new year. Thanks to Monozid for the download link for the single, hoping you all enjoy it! Here’s the info:
1. Monozid- Shame Of The Nation
2. Monozid- Turquoise Fields Burn Brighter, Honey
3. Bootblacks- Empire
4. Bootblacks- Tuxedo Tomcat
*DOWNLOAD LINK REMOVED*
There’s also a video for the second Monozid track, “Turquoise Fields Burn Brighter, Honey,” which features various tour footage and cameos from both bands! Click below to peep it.
The Puppets- The Way of Life 12”
Posted in 1980s, 1983, dance, disco, long island, nyc, synthpop, The Puppets on May 18, 2010 by Frankie Teardrop
Here’s a pretty killer dance/disco 12”, released in 1983. The Puppets were a New York/Long Island based dance group, who earned quite a bit of airplay from their lone 12” single. The 12” was released on Quality Records, a Canadian label, and came with generic brown sleeve. You can still find this one kicking around certain record stores if you have the patience to sift through coverless singles. Worth the time!
Rumor has it that The Puppets disbanded while recording a follow up full-length. Would love to hear any unreleased material!
Here’s the breakdown for the single:
1. The Way of Life (Dance Mix)
2. The Way of Life (Vocal)
3. The Way of Life (Instrumental)
*download it here* (re-ripped 4.15.17)
Revel Hotel- The Beating of the Wings EP
Posted in 2000s, 2010, nyc, post-punk, Revel Hotel, synthpop on March 15, 2010 by Frankie Teardrop
Allow me to deviate slightly from this blog’s usual course to announce the release of my band Revel Hotel’s debut studio EP, The Beating of the Wings. In true Systems of Romance fashion, I’ve uploaded it for free download for any and all interested parties.
Revel Hotel formed as a three piece in ’06, playing our first show at Wierd soon after. Since then, we’ve changed our name, added a guitar player, and have been carving out our own niche here in New York City. While this is our first studio release, we’ve also issued a downloadable EP of a recent radio session, as aired on 91.5FM and mixed by JennaX. Alongside two tracks that appear on the studio EP, we cut two newer songs, as well as a rather faithtful cover of B-Movie’s “Nowhere Girl.” Those sessions can be downloaded here.
Our studio debut was recorded in March ’09, lovingly mixed and mastered over the course of a year. Without any further ado, here’s the info:
2. 1,000 Dreams
3. Terminission
4. Dark Naked
5. Before I Disappear
For anyone interested in purchasing the EP (no obligations, please!), the record is currently available on CDBaby, iTunes, and Wierd Records.
Otherwise, please feel free to spread the record around at will! Systems of Romance will soon resume regular activity, but in the interim, thanks for listening, and hope you enjoy!
Visit us at these hubs:
Weep update
Posted in 2000s, astrobase go, nyc, post-punk, projekt, shoegaze, weep on October 15, 2008 by Frankie Teardrop
I promised a Weep update once the Never Ever CD went on sale. Well folks, that time is now! Check out this clever ad below and click to be taken to the Projekt.com order form, where you can nab Never Ever for 8 bucks! If you dug the five tracks I uploaded earlier in the year, be sure to pick the CD up and support some stellar music:
Weep- Never Ever demo
Posted in 2000s, nyc, post-punk, shoegaze, weep on March 26, 2008 by Frankie Teardrop
Now, listen up kids, this one is something brand-spanking new, and certainly special. I’m pleased to bring you five tracks from a prolific and multi-talented gentlemen who you may remember from such multimedia projects as the Venture Brothers, Mors Syphilitica, and Requiem in White.
Doc Hammer’s newest musical endeavor, simply entitled Weep, is his best yet, and instead of relying on operatic female vocals, his own voice graces these tracks and adds a new and exciting element to the already stellar, driving music. This demo was completely self-recorded, and each track is passionate and gripping without being overwrought and overbearing. It calls to mind the best epic swirls of shoegaze, the heaviest percussion of early post-punk, and tosses dozens of unforgettable hooks in for good measure. Weep was just unveiled this year, and will soon develop into a full-fledged live band, as these songs are simply a taste of what’s to come. A damn fine taste.
Here’s the tracklisting:
1. The Weep
2. Lay There and Drown
3. The Hole
4. One Lock, One Key
5. Can’t Be True
Otherwise, for more information about Weep, visit the official myspace page, linked just below. Also, I’ve reviewed the demo for Post Punk dot com, so take a peek if you’re so inclined.
Weep on myspace
Post-punk myspace
Bell Hollow
Posted in 2000s, bell hollow, dreampop, nyc, post-punk, shoegaze on November 7, 2007 by Frankie Teardrop
I’m pleased to post about today’s band, NYC local dreampop favorites Bell Hollow. Fresh off the release of their debut full-length, Foxgloves, the band shall be playing their cd release party in the heart of New York next Friday, November 16th, at Don Hills.
The band’s origins date back to 2003, where like minded bassist Christopher Bollman and guitarist Greg Fasolino (both veterans of NYC deathrock outfit Naked & the Dead) formed Bell Hollow to explore and rekindle a love of all things dream-pop and post-punk. The band’s lineup was fully realised with the inclusion of singer Nick Niles in 2005 and the addition of their second drummer, Todd Karasik, in 2006.
Bell Hollow’s sound calls to the glory days of shimmering shoegaze and guitar-pop, swirling guitars, locked-in rhythms, and ethereal vocals, and the band’s influences (Kitchens of Distinction, The Sound, Sad Lovers and Giants) are built upon with solid songwriting, clever arrangements, and admirable musicianship. The band has two releases under their belt, 2006’s Sons of the Burgess Shale EP and 2007’s Foxgloves, both released under indie label five03 (also home of the likeminded and equally captivating Prids). Both releases were recorded and produced by local NYC engineer Hillary Johnson, who also fills out the quartet’s live sound with synthesizers. Acoustic guitar contributions on Foxgloves are also made by Josh Strawn, lead vocalist of fellow NYC outfit Blacklist.
For today’s downloads, I’ve uploaded one track each from Bell Hollow’s releases…the first, a favorite of mine from their debut EP and the second, the lead-off track from Foxgloves.
download Bell Hollow- ‘Secret Key’
download Bell Hollow- ‘Seven Sisters’
If you like what you hear, be sure to support these local darlings and pick up copies of their records, which are available through the iTunes music store, as well as straight from five03. Again, Bell Hollow will grace the stage on Friday, Nov. 16th at Don Hills here in New York City, so be sure to drop by if you’re in the neighborhood! For more on the band, including purchase links, I entreat you to visit the following web-hubs:
Bell Hollow on myspace
purchase Bell Hollow records via five03
Bush Tetras
Posted in 1980s, 1990s, 2007, bush tetras, funk, no-wave, nyc, post-punk on November 5, 2007 by Frankie Teardrop
Today’s band, Bush Tetras, formed in the heart of New York City soon after the initial wave of the punk rock explosion. A female fronted dance-groovin’ post-punk band led by vocalist Cynthia Sley and complete with jerky rhythms and dissonant guitars, Bush Tetras first hit the scene in 1980 with a series of singles and EPs. Lead guitarist Pat Place’s previous credits included co-founding James Chance’s no-wave outfit the Contortions.
The band would achieve initial club success for their ‘Too Many Creeps’ single, a roaring, fiery, and jagged tune that helped draw attention to the budding post-punk and no-wave movements. The band would tour relentlessly during their initial tenure, forming a kinship with The Clash and experimenting with more Afro-rhythms and Caribbean influences.
After recording three proper EPs (Too Many Creeps, Boom In the Night, and Rituals), the band split up in 1983 upon the release of a live cassette entitled Wild Things. A further compilation of the band’s material saw the light of day (albeit also on cassette) in 1989, and it wasn’t until 1995, a year before the initial lineup would reform, that the band saw their first proper cd release, a compilation entitled Boom in the Night, which would collect all their previous efforts. In 1996, the band would record a new record entitled Beauty Lies, picking back up briefly from where they left off. After another decade of inactivity, the band released a combination compilation/record this year, entitled Very Very Happy, which features a handful of new tracks and a series of re-recorded tunes from their past, updating these songs and recording them as they were meant to be heard. The band is currently active and playing shows in East USA, so catch them if you can!
For your listening pleasure (and with the blessing of the Bush Tetra’s promotions dept./label), I’ve uploaded a duo of Bush Tetras tracks: the first is the title track from their 1981 Boom In the Night EP and the second, the freshly re-recorded take on their initial breakthrough single, ‘Too Many Creeps’- plucked from 2007’s Very Very Happy.
download Bush Tetras- ‘Things That Go Boom in the Night’
download Bush Tetras- ‘Too Many Creeps (2007 version)’
and for your viewing pleasure…here’s the band performing ‘Too Many Creeps’ live during NYC’s Ladyfest*East festival in 2002.
To pick up some Bush Tetras material on CD, check out these links:
Roir Online
CD Baby dot com
Our Daughter’s Wedding
Posted in 1980s, nyc, our daughter's wedding, synth, synthpunk, wave on September 10, 2007 by Frankie Teardrop
Our Daughter’s Wedding were a quirky, New York City based wave outfit comparible to the likes of Devo and Suicide. The band formed in the wake of the initial New York punk movement in 1977, taking their name from a section of greeting cards found in shops.
By the time they would begin recording and releasing material, the original straightforward rock lineup would soon add synthesizers to the mix and slim down to a trio. Though they employed the techniques seen in a variety of new wave and synth acts, the band would stay more true to their punk upbrining, keeping their songs punchy and energetic and playing all of their instruments live without the aid of sequencers.
Their first single, ‘Nightlife’ was released in 1980 and failed to make any impact whatsoever, though their second attempt, ‘Lawnchairs’ made a splash in the college circuit. Alongside a few more 7” singles, the band would cut an EP and a full length record, 1982’s Moving Windows, but would soon split in 1983 without any further drive or mainstream success.
I’ve plucked two tracks for your listening pleasure. The first is a remix of their underground hit ‘Lawnchairs’ and the second is the opening track from the Digital Cowboy EP, released in 1981.
download Our Daughter’s Wedding- ‘Lawnchairs (Remix)’
download Our Daughter’s Wedding- ‘Target For Life’
Here’s a live video of Our Daughter’s Wedding performing their first single ‘Nightlife’ in NYC:
Though several collections of the band’s material have been pressed to cd, they remain currently out of print. For more information about the band however, please visit these handy-dandy links.
Posted in 2000s, nyc, synthpunk, the brides on September 7, 2007 by Frankie Teardrop
Today’s band is a currently blossoming post-punk/wave act from New York City.
In the vein of both Devo and the Dead Kennedys, The Brides are a high energy, almost anthemic act combining the buzzsaw guitars of punk and the sharp synths of wave. Like the best sort of punk, there’s a whimsical atmosphere around their lyrics, and incredibly catchy organ hooks throughout even their most bleak material. The band’s vocals even contain a hint of Jello Biafra’s timbre and ferocity. Delightfully morbid, the band is equally austere as it is playful and energetic.
Though the band is relatively new, popping up in the bowels of NYC as early as 2001, both vocalist/guitarist Corey Gorey and drummer D.W. Friend are no strangers to the underground NYC punk scene, for the Brides were formed in the wake of the demise of the Brickbats, a more horror-punk outfit whose split triggered a change in direction for these two previous members. Since the turn of the century, The Brides have released a slew of EPs and compilation tracks, and their most recent offering, Sofa City Sweetheart was released just this year to a fair amount of critical acclaim and buzz.
If you’re living in New York, the Brides will be appearing shortly in both Albany and Poughkeepsie as well as playing various shows in their own hometown. For anyone else out there, here’s a duo of tracks plucked from their matching 2002 EPs; Here Come the Brides (parts 1 & 2).
download the Brides- ‘Amputation Celebration’
download the Brides- ‘Those Things You Cannot See’
And in line with their curious sense of humor, here’s their music video for ‘New Shocks,’ featured on Sofa City Sweetheart:
Their material is available through various outlest such as CDBaby and the Itunes Music Store. For all further information including upcoming shows and purchase links, please divert your attention to these links:
The Brides homepage
The Brides on myspace
Hysterica Passio- Grey Over Life 12”
Posted in 1980s, hysterica passio, minimal, nyc, synth, wave on August 30, 2007 by Frankie Teardrop
I’ve only managed to dig up a few snippets about today’s band- NY based minimal synth act Hysterica Passio. Drawing name inspiration from an outdated term for dementia used in Shakespeare’s King Lear, the band put out but one 12” single in 1982 before their demise two years later. These two tracks would be featured on various DIY Flexi-Pop compilations soon after, but would never record another note.
1. Grey Over Life
*songs removed by request*
Naturally, I’ve no Youtube videos, band photos, or links to pick up their material in mass-quantities. The original vinyl single however, should one be lucky enough to find a copy online, fetches approximately $80.
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Home The World in 2:00 Saudi crown prince seeks Russian help to tame boom-bust oil cycles
Saudi crown prince seeks Russian help to tame boom-bust oil cycles
By Luke Vargas
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman visits the U.N. headquarters in New York on March 27, 2018. UN Photo/Eskinder Debebe
Prince Mohammed bin Salman hopes to partner with Russia for up to two decades to coordinate oil production beyond the OPEC oil cartel.
UNITED NATIONS – Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is continuing his visit to U.S. this week, and he’s generating headlines in energy markets by announcing his intention to partner with Russia for up to two decades to coordinate oil production and stabilize prices.
Saudi Arabia has long been the core member of the OPEC oil cartel, and formalizing some policy overlap with non-OPEC member Russia would be a major deal, at least theoretically.
“Signing a deal on paper would not do the job.”
Robert McNally is the president of the Rapidan Group and served President George W. Bush’s top energy adviser.
“The market will, probably quickly, test the organization’s meddle.”
According to McNally, the near and medium-term challenge facing Saudi Arabia and Russia and the rest of OPEC aren’t the low prices of recent years, but a possible oil price boom caused by several years of under-investment in oil production and a slower-than-expected shift to renewable energy and electric vehicles.
If that happens, producers could find themselves back in 2008 territory, when oil surged to $148 a barrel with no more oil left to pump.
“Most swing producers in history – especially the big ones, all of them – have failed not because they couldn’t prevent prices from collapsing by agreeing to cut, but because they couldn’t prevent prices from booming. They actually lost control on the upside.”
McNally says the Saudis are wise to sync up policy with Russia, but taming oil’s boom-bust cycles won’t be easy:
“They have to go well beyond signing a marriage contract. They have to show that they have collective will to adjust production up and down, to hold spare production capacity, and to act quickly, proactively and collectively to stabilize markets, to prevent big inventory swings one way of the other. And that is a lot easier said than done.”
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Washington’s Words Fire Blanks At Turkey’s War Machine
First promised military support to Saudi Arabia on its way
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TBR NEWS: Former police officer, self procalimed medical examiner / crime scene invesigator tossed from case.
TH News Waco:
Court officials would not let a Tribune-Herald reporter type or Tweet the hearing as it happened.
Joe Carroll, senior judge of the 27th Judicial District Court, granted a motion to recuse McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. “Pete” Peterson from the Matthew Clendennen case.
A local justice of the peace was removed Thursday from an examining trial in the case of a Hewitt biker accused of engaging in organized crime in relation to the shootout at Twin Peaks restaurant.
Joe Carroll, senior judge of the 27th Judicial District Court, granted a motion to recuse Justice of the Peace W.H. “Pete” Peterson from the case involving Matthew Clendennen after Clendennen’s attorney, Clinton Broden, filed a complaint against Peterson.
Peterson set the initial $1 million bonds for the 177 bikers arrested in the aftermath of the May 17 shootout, and he was on the scene that day to pronounce death and order autopsies on all nine bodies of those who were killed.
Carroll said Clendennen’s case should now fall to the next-closest justice of the peace, Dianne Hensley. Broden noted during the hearing that Hensley has said she will recuse herself because she doesn’t think she can be impartial.
If Hensley recuses herself, it will be up to Billy Ray Stubblefield, administrative judge of the 26-county 3rd Judicial Region, to assign the case to another court.
Hensley was not available for comment Thursday.
Broden’s complaint, filed June 2 with the State Commission on Judicial Conduct, alleges Peterson violated several judicial ethical canons when he set the bonds for the jailed bikers. Broden has said his complaint is based on comments Peterson made to the Tribune-Herald after the shooting.
“I think it is important to send a message,” Peterson said at the time. “We had nine people killed in our community. These people just came in, and most of them were from out of town. Very few of them were from in town.”
Broden’s complaint alleges Peterson’s “public comments would cause persons to believe that they could not get a fair examining trial before Peterson.”
In the complaint, he alleges it is unlawful to set bonds to “send a message” and that Peterson’s quotes “indicate that he sets bonds out of bias against people who visit Waco.”
Carroll did not comment on the merit of Broden’s allegations.
Clendennen has said he was sitting on the Twin Peaks patio when the shooting broke out. He has said he was not involved in the violence but is associated with the Scimitars Motorcycle Club.
A gag order has been placed on the Clendennen case, prohibiting parties from speaking about it.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/btr.shows/show/7/794/show_7794949.mp3
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That Devil Music.com: The Reverend's Rock 'n' Roll Archives
An Evening with Wild Man Fischer coming to CD!
Today’s your lucky day, Bunkie, ‘cause Gonzo Multimedia is reissuing the notorious underground classic LP An Evening with Wild Man Fischer on CD for the very first time on January 29th, 2016. Produced by Frank Zappa, the album has taken on an almost mythological status since its original release in 1968, with vinyl copies selling in the neighborhood of a C-note (if you can find one). Long out of print, An Evening with Wild Man Fischer has never received legit CD release until now…
Larry Fischer was a tragic figure; diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, Fischer roamed the streets of Los Angeles singing his songs for a dime for anybody willing to listen. Discovered by Frank Zappa, who released Fischer’s debut album on his Warner Brothers-distributed Bizarre Records imprint, An Evening with Wild Man Fischer featured musical accompaniment by Zappa and members of the Mothers of Invention behind Fischer’s fractured vocals, Zappa reproducing Fischer’s street performances in the studio. Released as an ambitious two-LP set, the album offered up 36 songs – some no more than short, sharp stream-of-consciousness rants while others were insightful, revealing autobiographical poems set to minimalist instrumental backing.
After the release of An Evening with Wild Man Fischer, the singer and Zappa had a falling out over royalties (Zappa held the rights to the album). After Zappa’s death, his widow Gail refused to release the album on CD because she felt that it displayed Frank in a poor light. Fischer later hooked up with Rhino Records, and released three albums for the label – 1977’s Wildmania, 1981’s Pronounced Normal, and 1983’s Nothing Scary – and he would become a minor underground culture celebrity. He was featured in 2004 comic book The Legend of Wild Man Fischer by artist/writer Dennis Eichhorn, and the same year Fischer performed on ABC TV’s Jimmy Kimmel Live! In 2005, a documentary film on Fischer, Derailroaded: Inside the Mind of Wild Man Fischer, debuted at the SxSW Film Festival in Austin, Texas.
Fischer passed away in June 2011 at the age of 66 from heart problems. With the recent death of Gail Zappa, who administered the Zappa estate, the road was obviously paved for the long overdue reissue of Fischer’s most notorious recording. An Evening with Wild Man Fischer is a brilliant, disturbing portrait of outsider music, Fischer an artist with big dreams and talent on par with better-known cult artists like Wesley Willis or Daniel Johnston.
An Evening with Wild Man Fischer track list:
“The Basic Fischer”
1. Merry-Go-Round
2. New Kind of Songs for Sale
3. I’m Not Shy Anymore
4. Are You from Clovis
5. The Madness of Ecstacy Larry’s Songs (unaccompanied)
6. Which Way Did the Freaks Go
7. I’m Working for the Federal Bureau Of Narcotics
8. The Leaves Are Falling
9. 85 Times
10. Cops and Robbers
11. Monkeys Versus Donkeys
12. Start Life over Again
13. The Mope
14. Life Brand New
15. Who Did It Johnny
16. Think of Me When Your Clothes Are Off
17. Taggy Lee
18. Rhonda
19. I Looked Around You
20. Jennifer Jones
“Some Historical Notes”
1. The Taster
2. Story of the Taster
3. The Rocket Rock
4. Explanation and Dialog
5. Dream Girl
6. Dream Girl Explanation
7. Serrano Beach
8. Success Will Not Make Me Happy
9. Wild Man on the Strip Again
10. Why Am I Normal
11. Wild Man Fischer Story
12. Balling Isn’t Everything
13. Ugly Beautiful Girl
14. Larry and His Guitar
16. Larry Under Pressure
Buy the CD from Amazon.com: Wild Man Fischer's An Evening With Wild Man Fischer
Posted by Rev. Keith A. Gordon at Friday, January 29, 2016
Labels: CD reissues, Frank Zappa, Gonzo Multimedia, outsider art, Wild Man Fischer
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
The Rock 'n' Roll Archives: Rockin' 'round the World
Interviews and reviews of international artists like Little Steven, Peter Garrett of Midnight Oil, the Hoodoo Gurus and many more!
The Rock 'n' Roll Archives, Volume Four: Cult Rockers
Interviews and album reviews of "cult rockers" like Billy Bragg, Mojo Nixon, Eugene Chadbourne & more!
The Rock 'n' Roll Archives, Volume Three: Heavy Metal
Artist interviews and album reviews of metal pioneers
The Rock 'n' Roll Archives, Volume Two: Punk Rock
Artist Interviews and album reviews
The Rock 'n' Roll Archives, Volume One: Southern Rockers
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Difference between revisions of "Half-Life"
* The alien trampolines are difficult to control properly and often require a lot of reloading from killing yourself on them. It would have been better if there were either fewer of them, or they were easier to use.
==Documentation==
Half-Life - W32 - Manual.pdf|Game manual.
Half-Life - 2D Map.jpg|A flattened map of the Black Mesa Research Facility.
Half-Life - Fan Art.jpg|Fan Art.
Half-Life - Fan Art 2.jpg|Fan Art.
* [https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Half-Life/Walkthrough strategywiki.org/wiki/Half-Life/Walkthrough] - StrategyWiki.
* [http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php/Half-Life_(W32) vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php/Half-Life_(W32)] - Music.
* [https://www.textures-resource.com/pc_computer/halflife textures-resource.com/pc_computer/halflife] - Textures.
File:Half-Life - Box.jpg
North American box art.
Half-Life is a first-person shooter action game with various puzzle elements developed by Valve, and published by Sierra On-Line for Windows in 1998. You play the character Gordon Freeman working for a company called Black Mesa which is performing theoretical physics experiments and developing equipment for the US military. An accident occurs in the lab, and your team inadvertently opens a portal to an alien world. The aliens are quite hostile and begin killing the scientists. It's your job to try and close the portal, save the remaining scientists, and get out alive.
I didn't play Half-Life until about a decade after it had been released, but I still found the game to be quite enjoyable and technically impressive. An updated version of the game using the Source engine was released in 2005.
2.2 Bad
2.3 Ugly
I own Half-Life: Source through Steam. I have beaten the original game on easy difficulty, and Source on normal difficulty.
Best Version: Half-Life Source for Windows
Though originally based on the Quake engine, the programmers greatly modified it to result in a rather impressive engine, GoldSrc. The newer Source engine was even better.
The enemies have some interesting AI. It's cool to see them hide from the player, attack in concert, accidentally give away their positions, and generally scare the hell out of you.
The weapons feature a nice gradual increase in power that allows you to feel like you're becoming stronger as the game progresses, and each has its own function, benefits, and short comings. Also, most weapons have an alternate fire which adds even more flexibility.
Fitting scripted dialog into the engine was a good idea and it makes the game feel more realistic.
The damaged research facility pitfalls at the beginning of the game are really well-made and often gruesome.
Several of the bosses are terrifying!
Despite its length, there are a lot of puzzles and unique sequences that help keep the game fresh all the way through.
The underwater sequences were well-made and scary to play.
The game's intro is a great way of introducing just how massive and dangerous Black Mesa can be.
It's nice to see the aliens in their natural habitat on Xen, and makes you feel like kind of a jerk for killing them.
The altered gravity on Xen makes for some interesting jumping puzzles.
I like how the game alters the menu's background as you progress.
The crouch-high-jump and crouch-long-jump are both uncomfortable to use on the keyboard.
Breaking open crates with the crowbar ends up taking a lot of time in the game and is usually unrewarding.
It feels like you spend far too much time underground or in tunnels. Every now and then you surface for a few seconds, only to return to the rat maze.
The NPCs continue to talk even if you're out of earshot which doesn't make sense, and often causes you to miss dialogue.
The human skins are pretty bad. Everyone has a sort of odd grayish color flesh.
Having only a couple skins to choose from for the scientists, and only a single guard skin, and having them all use the same voice, hurts the immersion.
Every human character in the game is male except for the assassins. Would it have killed the developers to add a few more women?
The head crabs that turn people into zombies seems like an uncreative melding of Alien and Doom.
The barnacles are a interesting hazard early on in the game, allowing you to bypass them rather than waste bullets, but over time they slow the game down and become annoying.
I enjoy the game's music, but it's so rarely used, and it makes the game seem rather empty.
The game doesn't seem to explain why the military decides to kill every civilian in Black Mesa. I can think of my own reasons (like they fear a zombie outbreak), but it would have made more sense to explicitly say something.
The "On a Rail" chapter has a lot of clever booby traps, but having to keep the cart with you for such a long time slows the pacing to a crawl.
Although Xen has a lot of interesting aspects, something about it feels too unusual and odd to be enjoyable.
The NPCs have a sort of flapping-head motion when they talk which, while funny, hurts immersion.
There are a few too many instances of monsters appearing out of thin air. I know it's thematic to the resonance cascade, but it's too scripted for my tastes.
The training room is a bit too slow.
It is often not clear when bosses are invincible or vulnerable to your weapons because they bleed even when they can't be hurt.
I know it's petty, but I don't like the box art.
There are a serious bugs with some of the scripted NPCs which force you to reload from an earlier point and replay the section in hopes they get it right the next time around. Some places that are particularly bad are the guard at the beginning who is supposed to open the door to the testing chamber (three reloads), Gonarch breaking down the wall (two reloads), and Nihilanth remaining invincible after you've destroyed everything else (countless reloads).
The alien trampolines are difficult to control properly and often require a lot of reloading from killing yourself on them. It would have been better if there were either fewer of them, or they were easier to use.
Game manual.
A flattened map of the Black Mesa Research Facility.
Half-Life - Fan Art.jpg|Fan Art. Half-Life - Fan Art 2.jpg|Fan Art. Half-Life - happymonkeyshoes.jpg|Fan Art. Half-Life - MoshingSnail.jpg|Fan Art. Half-Life - ShawnCoss.jpg|Fan Art. </gallery>
half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Half-Life - Half-Life Wikia.
mobygames.com/game/half-life - MobyGames.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_(video_game) - Wikipedia.
strategywiki.org/wiki/Half-Life/Walkthrough - StrategyWiki.
vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php/Half-Life_(W32) - Music.
textures-resource.com/pc_computer/halflife - Textures.
Retrieved from "http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Half-Life&oldid=7173"
Games I've Beaten
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Albania TV Stations:
Alsat
Albania TV
Alsat TV – is a news channel from Albania. It is the first Albanian national satellite television station. Alsat stands for The Satellite Albanian Television Alsat. Alsat TV broadcasts 24 hours a day programs in Albanian language for a wide audience of 10 million people concentrated mainly in Albania.
Popular TV Stations: Albania TV, Alsat TV
Super Sonic TV is a music TV station broadcasting from Albania. It is one of the popular music television channels in Albania. It is known to be STV. All types of music programs are broadcasted in this channel.
Popular TV Stations: Albania TV, Super Sonic TV
Vizion Plus
Vizion Plus is a local general television channel from Albania. It covers 80% of Albanian territory. Now it will be available in USA and Canada. Vizion Plus organizes programs such as Miss Albania, Miss Globe International, Golden Microphone, Jazz Fest, Albanian Night Videoclips, Krasta Show etc.
Popular TV Stations: Albania TV, Vizion Plus
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The Big Two announce their concert seasons
In recent years I used to refer to the Big Three: Mozarteum Argentino, Nuova Harmonia and Festivales Musicales de Buenos Aires. Unfortunately, Festivales has called it quits, as an evidence of deep crisis, so now we have left the Big Two. There are signs of difficulties, but they have announced their seasons, and they will be good.
Mind you, don´t expect much intellectual stimulus: the programmes will be largely based on standards, and few bright ideas will be found. But the artists are of quality, whilst it is evident that certain markets aren´t being easy, perhaps due to political reasons: grade-A orchestras from the USA will be absent (we don´t even have an ambassador from that country).
The Mozarteum maintains its two cycles at the Colón, but in the provinces their net of filials has had some casualties: Rosario and now, it seems, Salta. What a pity for it is the only private federal concert-giving net, and this reveals local financing problems as a consequence of the deep economic crisis.
I deeply admire the constancy and hard work behind these important cycles: they require sometimes years of communications and when something doesn´t work out it often is because there was a problem in Europe.
They will start on April 13 and 15 with the Choir and Orchestra of the Bachakademie Stuttgart under Hans-Christoph Rademann, offering respectively Bach´s Mass and Händel´s "Messiah"; hardly innovative but probably satisfactory in its results. Also from Germany, the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen, led by violinist Pekka Kuusisto (April 20 and 27). Both these groups make their debut here.
Pianist Jan Lisiecki (debut) will play Bach and Chopin on May 11 and 13. The Atos Trio comes back on May 18 and 19. The fourth visit of the Budapest Festival Orchestra under its founder Ivan Fischer is most welcome; their two programmes are attractive: Brahms´ Fourth Symphony and Ravel´s Piano Concerto (with the excellent Alexander Toradze) on June 26, and soprano Miah Persson (debut) as soloist in both Strauss´ Four Last Songs and Mahler´s Fourth on June 27.
In early August -dates to be confirmed- we´ll have again the visit of the West Eastern Divan Orchestra under Daniel Barenboim. Then, on August 17 and 18, a recital by Dutch mezzosoprano Christianne Stotijn (debut) with pianist Maciej Pikulski; they will offer songs by Tchaikovsky, Strauss, Mahler and Brahms.
The return of Hesperion XXI with Jordi Savall is the most interesting item of the whole season. They will do two fascinating programmes: on September 7, one on the Folías of the Old and New Worlds; and on September 8, a "Dialogue between the Ottoman, Armenian, Greek and Sephardic musical traditions of old Istanbul".
The Italian pianist Alessio Bax will play Beethoven, Rachmaninov and Mussorgsky (October 5 and 6). Finally, the BBC National Orchestra of Wales under Grant Llewellyn with harpist Catrin Finch on November 2 and 4 (debut of all concerned) is an intriguing presence.
Since an early press conference in April telling us at the Coliseo their plans for 2014 (some renovation of the theatre and a new team led by two young women) the Nuova Harmonia authorities have already changed and now only Elisabetta Riva is left. The presentation of the new season took place at the Italian Embassy and there the Ambassadress and Ms Riva (among others) gave us the evidence of support by Italy and details for 2015. For the Coliseo is the only theatre owned by Italy in a foreign country. And even in the middle of a strong crisis, Italian artists will be here in three out of ten international programmes, though with groups already known.
With a couple of exceptions, the music will be very standard repertoire, and following the trend of recent decades, orchestras will dominate. And there will be no vocal music whatsoever.They start on April 16 (all concerts at the Coliseo unless specified otherwise) with the Russian State Symphony Orchestra under Mikhail Jurowski, featuring cellist Alexander Buzlov (debut) in Dvorák´s Concerto; main score, Tchaikovsky´s Fourth.
An enjoyable classical concert will be offered with the debut of the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Philharmonic with Alexander Lonquich (debut) as conductor and pianist (Colón, May 15): Schubert´s Fifth, Mozart´s Concerto Nº 25 and Haydn´s "Oxford" Symphony. The Interpreti Veneziani will do a Baroque Italian night on June 4. The Orquesta Sinfónica Nacional de España will pay us a new visit on July 14, this time under Juanjo Mena (debut): Ravel, Falla´s "Noches en los jardines de España" with pianist Javier Peiranes and Tchaikovsky´s Fifth.
The Quarteto della Scala di Milano will give us Schubert, Beethoven (the "Harp" Quartet) and Verdi on August 11. Pianist Horacio Lavandera will be the sole Argentine presence playing Beethoven, Chopin and Liszt (August 25). I Solisti di Pavia under the cellist Enrico Dindo will do Italian composers and Piazzolla´s "Las Cuatro Estaciones".
In what is perhaps the most innovative programme, a very attractive duo (Viktoria Mullova, violin; Katia Labèque, piano) will play sonatas by Mozart, Schumann and Ravel but add pieces by recent composers, Pärt and Takemitsu; September 28, Colón. The Camerata Ireland under Barry Douglas (conductor and pianist) will offer Mozart and Beethoven, plus a novelty: "Irish Folk Songs and Jigs" (Eimear McGeown, Irish flute); October 21. Finally, Il Gardellino (Dutch Baroque Ensemble) will play G. Benda, C.P.E. and J.S.Bach on November 6.
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Two Argentine chamber operas plus a Juventus celebration
In recent years Argentine composers have written a good many chamber operas, simply because a full-scale opera is very expensive to put on and creators won´t risk it unless there is either a competition whose prize is the staging or otherwise having been commissioned to write one. Two recent instances: the start of the Cycle of Concerts of Contemporary Music (though it wasn´t a concert!) with "La libertad total" at the Teatro San Martín´s Sala Casacuberta, music by Lucas Fagin, text by Pablo Katchadjian; and at the Colón´s CETC, "Hércules en el Mato Grosso", music by Esteban Insinger, libretto by Pola Oloixarac. Both premières, of course.
Martín Bauer has led the San Martín cycle for close to twenty years, but he was also the czar (for a much shorter time) of the TACEC, the Argentino´s equivalent of the CETC. Even more than the latter, the former put the accent on experimentation, an orientation I dislike for it rarely produces good quality. But the new winds blowing at La Plata have ended the TACEC.
It was going to be the place of the Fagin/Katchadjian opus première but it was cancelled when already much advanced; Bauer decided to compensate the authors by giving them pride of place starting the aforementioned Cycle. I´m afraid it wasn´t a good move for the piece seemed to me clearly second-rate. I would have thought that after the precursors Lautréamont and Jarry the theatre of the absurd had already had illustrious practitioners such as Ionesco, Beckett and Arrabal.
The deplorable spoken text of Katchadjian took about half of the 50 minutes length and the absurdisms had no substance and no aim. The two actors met some characters who sang and were incomprehensible; the "singing" was pure distortion, presumably humoristic. Some reasonably interesting ambience was provided by nine players (a sense of timbre seemed to me the sole talent of this ill-advised venture).
I respect the professionalism of the singers who had thankless tasks: Mercedes García Blesa, soprano; Ricardo González Dorrego, tenor; Damián Ramírez, tenor; and Pol González, bass. And the players under Mariano Moruja were good. Luciano Ricio and Julián Cabrera were the harassed actors directed to shout their way through many passages by Mariano Tenconi Blanco. For the record, the poor stage and costume designs were by Micaela Sleigh, the rather better videos by Santiago Brunati and María José Jerónimo and the correct lighting by Matías Sendón. There were two performances.
I rather liked "Hércules en el Mato Grosso". It was commissioned by the CETC and the result was entertaining and original. The pretentious denomination of "lyric drama" is given to this imaginative telling of the perilous incidents met by two Europeans in the Mato Grosso during explorations in 1825. Three brief acts without intervals last 50 minutes. The text is in Portuguese, Quechua and German!
The opera is defined as "an imaginary trip based on a true story" involving the botanist Baron Langsdorff and the French painter Hercule Florence, a would-be predecessor of photography ("painting with light"). Two metaphoric characters evoke the terrible Green Hell: Anacondas Rainha and Vestal, monstrous and seductive. Oloixarac´s libretto and Insinger´s suggestive music (mainly tonal) weave a convincing spell, aided by the attractive stage design of Luna Paiva, the adequate costumes of Leticia Pompei and the good lighting by Eduardo Pérez Winter. Walter Jakob produced with fine attention to detail.
Very well sung by Alejandro Spies (baritone) and Martín Díaz (tenor), they were at times surrounded by the dangerous duets of the Anacondas, done with much conviction by sopranos María Paula Alberdi and María Virginia Majorel. The only players were pianists Victoria Gianera and Leandro Rodríguez Jáuregui,.very competent. The whole was coordinated by Sebastián Zubieta. Both at the beginning and the end there were some offstage electroacoustics by Diego Cano. The place was packed and four performances were given.
The Great Anniversary Gala of Juventus Lyrica is a cause to rejoice: a private opera group has reached its fifteenth year with a good level of artistry, a considerable audience and a fidelity to its main idea: opera done with love and conviction. It was a staged concert at the Avenida conducted by Antonio Russo and produced by Ana D´Anna, the twosome that founded Juventus. There were ups and downs but the end result was agreeable. Four performances with different casts; I attended the fourth, delayed 35 minutes due to the gigantic decibels of the Gay Parade outside the theatre!
There were no less than 27 pieces, all opera or operetta save for the "attributed" Rossini Buffo duet for two cats. The orchestra was too small (only 21) and some arrangements were the consequence. Best points: Figaro´s entrance aria in Rossini´s "Barber..." by a brilliant young baritone, Juan Font. The "Rigoletto" duet with an intense Jaquelina Livieri and an intelligent interpretation by Ernesto Bauer. An "E lucevan le steelle" ("Tosca") very firmly sung by Darío Sayegh. A beautiful "Va pensiero" from the Chorus of Juventus (Hernán Sánchez Arteaga). The low point: an absurd Queen of the Night aria sung by four (?) sopranos.
Fragments from "La Boheme", "Les Contes d´Hoffmann", "Carmen", "le Nozze di Figaro", "Don Giovanni", "Les Pêcheurs de Perles " plus operettas by Johann Strauss II and Lehár were acceptably done but with too loose a hand from D´Anna; the singers sometimes interacted with Russo and the public in a spirit of fun. The veteran maestro was spry and musical. I will mention as positive Laura Polverini, Carlos Ullán, partially Enrique Folger, Soledad de la Rosa, Laura Penchi, Rocío Arbizu.
Festivales Musicales and Nuova Harmonia wrap up their season
Festivales Musicales de Buenos Aires offered the final two concerts of its season, and Nuova Harmonia closed their year with a symphonic concert at the Colón. NH will formally announce their 2015 plans next week, although they already appear in the hand programme. Alas, that won´t happen with Festivales: although a cryptic phrase in the programme of Bach´s Mass implies their final goodbye, it isn´t clearly stated, but it is unfortunately true: after 39 years they are leaving the field to (they say) younger musical associations.
I´m sure that I express a shared feeling of deep regret, for Festivales Musicales was for decades an essential element of life in our musical community. In fact it started as a way of replacing another basic institution, Asociación Amigos de la Música: I can truly say that in the Fifties and Sixties it was the most intelligent and progressive concert organizer, but after the death of Leonor Hirsch de Caraballo it never recovered its impulse and steadily declined.
Mario Videla had been a part of Amigos and had witnessed the Karl Richter Bach Festivals; in the initial group Videla was joined by Antonio Russo and Jesús Segade and they all concentrated on the Baroque period. Shortly after the orientation decanted when Videla teamed with Leonor Luro; she proved a splendid leader, cultured, dynamic and well-oriented in artistic matters. Of course, Videla´s vast know-how was always there.
An essential concept was that each Festival had a central idea: e.g., Purcell-Britten or From Berlioz to Ravel, or the Baroque in different mixtures or Mozart. Another was to bring over distinguished specialists: The English Concert, Les Arts Florissants, Musica Antiqua Köln, The Academy of Ancient Music, La Petite Bande... A veritable cascade of revelations at the highest level, enriching the souls of concertgoers.
But again, fate intervened, and Leonor Luro died. And the orientation changed: there was no longer a central idea and Festivales started to lose its individuality. Unfortunately the country also changed and its political and economic decline meant that fewer sponsors were available. There were signs of imminent demise during these last years but somehow one hoped that a solution would be found, such as a powerful new sponsor or a strong personality with Luro´s drive. Neither appeared, although there was good disposition and hard work from all involved in Festivales.
They will be sorely missed, but at least a "daughter" of great value will survive: as Videla announced, the Academia Bach will go on, and it´s no secret that I deeply admire his work there.
A reprogrammed concert (planned for July but one of the artists fell ill) was presented at the Auditorio de Belgrano with the unusual mixture of baritone and string quartet. In music of Late Romanticism and tonal Twentieth Century there was an odd-man-out, to my mind unnecessary and partial: the long aria "Schlummert ein" from Bach´s Cantata Nº 82, "Ich habe genug" (wrongly programmed to end the evening, but fortunately Pablo Saraví announced a new order for the music and Bach was heard first).
Víctor Torres sang two introspective and beautiful pieces in addition to Bach: Samuel Barber´s "Dover Beach" (1931) on a melancholy poem by Matthew Arnold, and Respighi´s lovely "Il Tramonto" ("The Sunset"), Shelley in Italian translation. The blend of strings and baritone works admirabl. I have a soft spot for the Barber, for the composer was also a baritone and did a very commendable disc which I own. I found Torres in good voice and well attuned to the style of both creators; the blend with the Cuarteto Petrus was very neat.
The Cuarteto Petrus has presented before (and I reviewed that occasion) two attractive quartets of Slavic composers, both quite well-known: Borodin´s Nº 2 and Dvorák´s Nº 12, "American". They play them at an international level and all four must be mentioned: Saraví, Hernán Briático, Silvina Álvarez and Gloria Pankaeva.
The Bach Mass was chosen to end Festivales´ long trajectory. I wish I could be more enthusiastic but I found the version good rather than great. Perhaps Videla´s disposition was (understandably) not at its best, but this Bach, although respectful, well-rehearsed and listenable, lacked the special spark of the great evenings. In the Ensamble Academia Bach, 30-strong, I single out the solos of Fernando Ciancio (trumpet), Fernando Chiappero (horn) and Claudio Barile (flute), but the strings sounded mushy. And the Orfeón de Buenos Aires (Néstor Andrenacci and Pablo Piccinni) sang decently enough, although far from the sound quality and precision of the great Bachian choirs.
Countertenor Martín Oro was the best soloist even if I prefer the timbre of a contralto for such pieces as the Agnus Dei, short in expression this time. But he blended very well in his duos with the clear-voiced Soledad de la Rosa. Santiago Ballerini sang correctly his Benedictus, and Torres had an off night.
Kazakhstan is the biggest, northernmost and more developed of the five "-stan" countries that used to be a part of Siberian Russia and are now independent. The final concert of Nuova Harmonia was supposed to be the debut of the Beijing Symphony but a strange thing happened, that enormously rich country decided that it wouldn´t sponsor the trip! And so we had the unexpected visit of the Kazakh State Symphony Orchestra (the "Orchestra" is redundant in their appellation) at the Colón.
Conducted by the young Frenchman Nicolas Krauze, who showed enthusiasm and professionalism, they gave interesting performances of two Russian classics: the Mussorgsky/Rimsky-Korsakov "A Night on the Bare Mountain" and Tchaikovsky´s Sixth Symphony, "Pathetic". They sounded well and disciplined, but with a touch of steppes roughness.
Kazakh violinist Galya Bisengalieva gave a nicely played, standard account of Bruch´s First Concert. As was only natural, there was also some Kazakh music: in the programme, a beautiful melody from the opera "Kyz Zhibek" by Evgeny Brusilovsky as arranged by Renat Salavatov; and both encores were Kazakh (the first with the violinist).
Ballet Folklórico de México, the Bringer of Joy
In recent years the visits of folk ballets have been few and far between, pero in earlier times (1950s to 1980s) they were frequent and often meant fruitful revelations, adding new cultural elements to the spectator´s life. When they are good (and they generally are) they leave a sediment of curiosity and empathy and become the best ambassadors of their country.
Moiseiev, Beriozka, Mazowsze, Philippines, Africa...and the Ballet Folklórico de México, were Bringers of Joy (paraphrasing Holst´s Jupiter from "The Planets"). The latter visited us for the second time thirty years ago, and its return (at the Coliseo) was long overdue.
I visited Mexico in 2009 and the BFM was performing at its resident venue, the beautiful and vast Palacio de Bellas Artes, both museum and auditorium. I was very sorry to be frustrated in my attempt to see them because of an excursion to Taxco and Cuernavaca.
The BFM, founded by Amalia Hernández in 1952, changes very little over the years; rightly, there´s no "aggiornamento": what we see existed fifty and even a hundred years ago. Pancho Villa is evoked, the corridos, the mariachis, the evergreens that are in the memory of many Argentines as symbols of Mexico ("La Bamba", "Jarabe Tapatío", and so on).
Mexico is basically a "mestizo" country, a blend of the native peoples and Spanish blood, and this is reflected in their songs and dances, although with some territorial differences (e.g., the blend with Aztec or with Maya). They are fiercely nationalistic even now, when the Revolution is centenary, and their colorful and violent history is vividly painted in the murals of Rivera and Siqueiros. Although the BFM basically shows the sunnier side of life, it does touch upon conflictive days of yore. Also, the "Danza del venado" is still a staple of their repertoire, a Yaqui dance (only tribe that has no mixture).
I will not translate all the titles of the tableaux, I feel my bilingual readers will appreciate them as they are. The First Part, after an Overture, presented "Los concheros", in which the dancers use the jingles in their feet for a strong statement of the Pre-Hispanic Mexicans and of Catholic beliefs, with resplendent feathery attire. "Sones antiguos de Michoacán" shows three barefeet dances; one with jingles, the other two "jarabes" (fast charming steps); this is the lovely region of Pátzcuaro and Morelia. Then, "Tarima de Tixtla", three happy dances from a small city in the Estado de Guerrero, whose capital is Chilpancingo: "El Toro", "El Arranca Zacate" ("zacate" is "grass") and "La Iguana". Followed "La Revolución" (1910), rebels sing and dance "Adelita" whilst crashing a party of aristocrats.
"Charreada". In "La Charrería" men and women do dances derived from their work in the fields ("charro" is "cowboy") and in them the "common good" is identified with "love". Finally, a 17-minute "Fiesta en Tlacotalpan" (a picturesque Veracruz pueblo) goes through 14 dances and songs and features enormous puppets called "mojigangas"; the Spanish influence is evident in the fandangos.
The beautiful pre-Hispanic "Danza de los quetzales" (wonderful feathers adorning the dancers´clothes), danced at Puebla, started the Second Part. Then, a Danzón (derived from the Habanera) and a Jarana, a fusion of Maya music and Spanish zapateado and jota. Then, the aforementioned "Danza del venado", so characteristic. And finally, a rambunctious "Fiesta en Jalisco" in which the dancers of the troupe descend to the stalls and dance with the audience members in a paroxysm of joyful communication.
All this wonderfully done by anonymous dancers and by impressive musicians with that inimitable sound of the mariachis (exciting trumpet interventions) and strong-voiced singers. And with splendid clothes and props. A true feast all the way.
Simkin and Kochetkova sparkle in “Don Quixote”
Daniil Simkin is a dance phenomenon who impressed mightily in previous visits. Now the slim imp measuring 1,70 mt showed again his immense agility and childish/naughty charm in a "Don Quixote" built around him. And with a splendid partner, Maria Kochetkova, who danced the final duet this very year with Herman Cornejo in the Ballet Gala.
They are both Russian but working in the USA, he at the New York-based American Ballet Theatre, she at the San Francisco Ballet. Young, personable, with mutual chemistry, they were an ideal couple Basilio-Kitri in what is perhaps the most extensively staged ballet of the last forty years in Buenos Aires.
In fact both the Colón and the Argentino have so often presented either the Zarko Prebil or the Petipa/Gorsky choreography that to put it on seems an easy job. But it isn´t: the ballet is light but long, there are many difficult steps, it has plenty of roles and no less than five scenes in three acts. Only big outfits can do it properly. The corps de ballet has a lot to do and in different styles: Spanish, Gypsy, "ballet blanc".
Ludwig Minkus´ 1869 music has often been denigrated, to my mind unfairly: it may be rather conventional and with no flashes of genius, but it is perfectly adapted to the action, has nice melodies, good rhythms and adequate orchestrations. This Austrian composer knew how to give a Spanish tinge to his pieces. And how to imagine music for pantomime (there´s a lot of it) and for variegated dancing.
Mario Silva is currently Director of the Teatro Argentino Ballet and has presented his Petipa/based choreography there; it was the one used at the Coliseo, with some Prebil added (the Gypsy Girl´s vehement solo). This was a joint production of Grupo Ars and Teatro Argentino presented at the Coliseo; the Ballet Estable (of La Plata) surrounded the two famous soloists.
There are plenty of character roles, including Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, and I have seen them more humorous and richer in details in other stagings. Here the same gestures were redundant too many times, and to boot weren´t sufficiently expressive. Some of the men of the corps de ballet are overweight and lack enough agility; the girls were generally better, though less adjusted than when I saw them at La Plata. Petipa and Gorsky reign in the complex and pure steps that need great dexterity as well as personality. And there both the soloists of the Argentino and in superlative terms, the guests, gave much pleasure.
Of the Argentino artists I single out the following as the best of that group: Bautista Parada´s Torero as the Bullfighter (a strong, tall man), Aldana Bidegaray as the fiery Gypsy Girl, Julieta Paul as an appropriately ethereal Queen of the Dryads, Genoveva Surur and Darío Lesnik as Queen and King of the Gypsies, María Alejandra Baldoni as Street Woman and Agustina Verde and Natalia Mujtar as Kitri´s friends. The character roles were indifferently taken (Don Quixote, Sancho Panza, Lorenzo the Innkeeper, Camacho).
But of course whenever Simkin and Kochetkova were on stage the others faded into the background. Simkin was, along with Julio Bocca, the most accomplished Basilio I´ve seen, with his daring cabrioles and humorous acting. And the beautiful Kochetkova was admirable throughout, perfect in technique and always completing Simkin´s gags.
Lovely costumes from Eduardo Caldirola and agreeable though sometimes incongruous stage designs by Augusto González Ara. Correct lighting by Matías Rodríguez.
Finally, a good account of the music by that expert conductor, Carlos Calleja, leading his 39-member Orquesta Académica de Buenos Aires.
Richard Strauss and Verdi reign as seasons close
The Buenos Aires Philharmonic under Enrique Arturo Diemecke closed its successful season with a valuable all-Richard Strauss concert. And the Ensamble Lírico Orquestal tackled the Verdi Requiem to finish their cycle.
Diemecke´s affinity with Strauss has been appreciated throughout the musical year (150th anniversary of the composer´s birth). Indeed, his total command of the difficult material was again fundamental for the final result, although the Phil wasn´t quite at its best.
Prior to the music Diemecke dedicated the session to his young assistant Carlos Bertazza, who died some weeks ago and left a lasting memory of musicianship and decency. As Bertazza helped prepare the concerts and took care of many logistics aspects of the Phil, he will have to be replaced for next season.
As I read the hand programme I was surprised that the Oboe Concerto was announced as the first work; Diemecke put things right by starting with "Metamorphoses", a melodious contrapuntal homage to the Munich National Theatre, destroyed by bombs; hence the quote from the Funeral March of Beethoven´s "Heroic" Symphony. Written for 23 string soloists, it is a tricky and beautiful score of great melancholy. However, all 23 have to have perfect intonation, and not all did, so there were murky moments.
Then came the high interpretative point of the concert: Strauss´ Oboe Concerto was created close in time to the "Metamorphoses" (1945-6) but it inhabits a bucolic, airy, euphonic world. We had a world-class soloist, Lucas Macías Navarro, first oboe of the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and it was pure bliss to hear him, not only for his marvelous technique but for the subtle taste of his phrasing. The Orchestra accompanied well.
An incredible half-century separates the two aforementioned scores from "Also sprach Zarathustra" ("Thus spoke Zarathustra"), an amazingly complex score inspired by Nietzsche written when the composer was 31 back in 1895. By then his command of orchestration was a wonder of the late Nineteenth Century as well as his enormously intricate language, sensual, rich in harmony, imaginative, contrasted. Although Diemecke´s qualities were again to the fore, the orchestra had some blemishes in the solos, even if many moments had true impact.
Can it be that the inner turmoil of the theatre had some effect on the players´ concentration? In effect, as happened in the "Elektra" performances, the orchestras are complaining with placards reading "Enough!" ("Basta") and "Dignified Salaries" ("Salarios dignos"). They are right, of course, and this time they have avoided the silly strikes that affect the audiences and turn public opinion against them; instead, they were roundly applauded.
Verdi´s mighty Requiem Mass will always be desecrated by a certain sector of the public as much too operatic and dramatic; it is not sacral, but that doesn´t change the fact that we deal with a masterpiece of immense genius. It is also quite a challenge for all concerned: you need four splendid soloists, a first-rate big choir and a full orchestra who has to solve many complicated passages. The Ensamble Lírico Orquestal at the Auditorio de Belgrano was quite audacious in programming it.
So I will use an adjective that recognizes the hard work and competence of all concerned but implies some shortcomings: honorable. Conductor Dante Ranieri was in his youth one of our best lyric tenors, particularly for his phrasing and sense of style. From 1992 on he has taken up conducting, especially in Medellín (Colombia); but in BA he had conducted mostly operas with small orchestras. So this Requiem meant a step forward and a great challenge for him. The ad-hoc Orquesta del Ensamble Lírico Orquestal numbered 63, enough but not huge, and worked rather well most of the time, apart from trumpet smudges (there are eight!), whilst Ranieri chose good tempi and managed reasonable rapport with the Choir.
The Coral Ensamble Adultos was led by Gustavo Codina, Artistic Director of the Ensamble; 71 strong, it was attentive and strong, though some voices could be improved. The soloists were Sonia Schiller (soprano), Laura Cáceres (mezzo soprano), Leonardo Pastore (tenor) and Lucas Debevec (bass). The first was firm in the high range but unpleasant in the lows. The second has two different registers: a very solid upper range and a middle and low range of rather strange timbre. The tenor didn´t avoid some sentimentalisms but sang with "italianità", and the bass was impressive in his intensity and volume.
There was a second performance which I didn´t attend; except the tenor the others changed: Silvia Gatti (soprano), Nora Balanda (mezzo soprano), Mario de Salvo (bass); conductor Codina.
To end, a "review" assisted by poetic justice: as I couldn´t go to an interesting concert by the National Symphony, I went to the rehearsal at the Auditorio de Belgrano, and I enjoyed myself; there´s a good chance that things weren´t very different in the concert proper that same Friday but in the evening. It was the debut of young Croat conductor Miran Vaupotich and he chose two powerful Russian tone poems, neither played often: Rachmaninov´s "The Isle of the Dead", inspired by Böcklin´s famous paintings, and Tchaikovsky´s "Francesca da Rimini", depicting the anguish of Hell for those famous lovers, Paolo and Francesca.
Two interesting Concertos completed the programme: Werner Tärichen´s for Timpani and Carlos Franzetti´s for clarinet. Marcos Serrano and Mariano Rey were the splendid soloists. Vaupotich impressed me well , he is dynamic and knowledgeable.
The Mozarteum ends brilliantly its season
The countertenor voice isn´t a new phenomenon of our musical life. About three decades ago, the reinventor of this sort of vocal emission was here with his son: Alfred with Mark Deller sang countertenor duets and solos (even before, the New York Pro Musica brought along the transparent voice of Russell Oberlin). I met Deller in the Fifties with his groundbreaking and wonderful Vanguard records, and I heard him in an unforgettable recital at Washington´s Library of Congress in December 1957.
Since then, the Baroque market has burgeoned with countertenors galore. The complete Bach sacred cantatas under Leonhardt and Harnonocourt featured Paul Esswood. Festivales Musicales brought English groups that premièred Purcell masques here with countertenors and William Christie with Les Arts Florissants did French repertoire with the likes of Dominique Visse. Argentina produced international countertenors such as Franco Fagioli and Martín Oro. The Mozarteum brought countertenor stars for Baroque programmes. The Colón presented Monteverdi´s "L´incoronazione di Poppea" with countertenors Michael Chance and Visse.
So the debut of Philippe Jaroussky with his Artaserse Ensemble for an all-Vivaldi night was certainly welcome for he is an important artist, but the countertenor battle has long been won in our midst. There will always be prejudice against men who sing in contralto or soprano tessitura, but it is simply a matter of singing with head voice. The concerts (there are two subscription series) closed the successful Mozarteum season brilliantly.
I have written before that the repertoire of Händel operas will never be able to be reproduced exactly as it were in the composer´s time because castrati have disappeared. Yes, it´s intriguing to imagine the splendor of those males with powerful lungs that sang in women´s tessituras and the abundant references of 1720s and 1730s tell us that they were musically and sonorously fascinating. But I don´t see candidates that in the name of pure historicism would want to go under the knife...And so their parts are sung now by women or by countertenors; I much prefer the second option.
Since the Deller years countertenors have found a way to be more audible and now they can be heard in big theatres like the Colón. They will never have the fullness of a lung-projected voice, but I heard Jarousski at all times, although sometimes tenuously in slow, meditative music.
My generation (I have just reached my 76th year) saw the eclosion of the Vivaldi mania with the glorious recording by I Musici of "Il Cimento dell´armonia e dell´invenzione", whose initial concerti are "The Four Seasons", now classical music´s top hit. It also witnessed the discovery of hundreds of forgotten scores and the substitution of the obsolete Pincherle catalogue by the Ryom.
Now all the instrumental and the sacred music is recorded but quite a few of his 40 operas remain unknown; so it was very useful that Jarousski programmed pieces from "Il Giustino", "Orlando finto pazzo" and "L´Olimpiade". I remember the stunned surprise provoked about thirty years ago by the première of "Il Giustino" at the Coliseo by a group of Leyla Gencer disciples in a production that featured L´Olimpichetto, a portable reduction of Palladio´s Vicenza Teatro Olimpico. Unfortunately no further operas have been heard since then.
The Ensemble Artaserse has grown since it was founded by Jarousski in 2002, when the countertenor was only 21; as it came to BA it numbered 13 strings plus a theorbo and harpsichord and organ. Led by Alessandro Tampieri they first played the Concerto for strings and continuo in C minor, RV 120; the reading seemed to me very accurate though rather soft in attack. After the "Stabat Mater" (of which more below), they did what I find an aberration: instead of playing the whole of the announced Concerto for strings and continuo in D major, RV 123, they only played the first movement as an introduction to the Motet "Longe mala, umbrae terrores".
I wasn´t quite convinced by Jarousski in the "Stabat Mater" (which includes the first ten verses of the original twenty), sung with too many gestures and not enough sacrality, but the fast initial aria of the motet was impressive: his voice went with complete ease to the higher regions and the articulation of the florid passages was simply fantastic. The other, slower aria, was sensitively sung.
But it was in the operatic repertoire that Jarousski completely bowled me over, even if it left me more admirative than moved. The voice is beautiful and pure, the Baroque articulation is of uncanny precision, and the music he chose was either fast and nervous or slow and expressive. Both moods were impeccably done and the Artaserse accompanied very well. The instrumental group also did a fine performance of the Concerto Op.3 Nº 8 from the famous series "L´Estro Armonico", with Tampieri and the idiosyncratic Petr Ruzicka as interesting soloists.
More Vivaldi in the encores: "Sento in seno" from "Il Giustino", and the lovely "Cum dederit" from the "Nisi dominus" RV 608, done with taste and serenity.
I will add that Vivaldi is much more varied than the usual image of him, and that I was never bored; rather, I wish there were more programmes entirely dedicated to him. There´s still so much that isn´t known and of such elevated quality For he was undoubtedly the greatest Italian of the Late Baroque. What an incredible genius to extract so much from such simple elements!
Great Mahler and Britten scores played by our orchestras
As readers know, I believe in difficult and challenging programming, both for the information of music lovers and for the betterment of our orchestras. I certainly can´t complain about two recent concerts from the Buenos Aires Philharmonic and the National Symphony.
Roberto Paternostro, who in the same week did a splendid job conducting Strauss´ "Elektra", was correct and careful in Britten´s Serenade for tenor, horn and strings (1943), but really came into his own in a wholly admirable rendition of that late masterpiece by Gustav Mahler, "Das Lied von der Erde" ("The Song of the Earth"). He (and we) had a problem: the originally announced soloists were to be mezzosoprano Barbara Dever and tenor Jonathan Boyd, but without any explanation (as usual...) the Colón substituted them with Alejandra Malvino and Enrique Folger.
The matter was serious in the case of Britten, for Boyd has the right voice and style, in the line of Peter Pears, whilst Folger was manifestly uncomfortable both vocally and in his English articulation. Hornist Fernando Chiappero used two instruments, one natural and the other with valves, which seemed to me right according to the score, but his playing wasn´t as clean as he has shown in other concerts. Chiappero did well but with room for improvement, and I felt that an encore I didn´t identify was quite unnecessary,
But even with these caveats I was glad to hear live this complicated and very personal work, with its refined choice of poets and the endless imagination with which they have been musicalized. Framed by a horn Prologue and Epilogue, we heard six poems by various authors each with its very individual musical texture: Charles Cotton, Alfred Tennyson, William Blake, Anonymous (a Yorkshire "lyke-wake dirge"), Ben Jonson and John Keats, going from the witty to the pastoral and to hard drama.
As to "Das Lied von der Erde", it is a work that I deeply love since my teens, when I heard the Böhm-conducted Colón première and I bought the marvelous Bruno Walter-Kathleen Ferrier and Julius Patzak recording. It is, with the composer´s Ninth and unfinished Tenth Symphonies, a sublime metaphysical musical transition towards his death.
The wonderful poems are taken from the Hans Bethge translations of Chinese poets in his anthology "The Chinese flute": four from the famous Li Tai-Po, one by Chang Tsi and the enormous half-hour final Lied in two parts, "The farewell", by Mong Kao-Jen and Wang Wei, with Mahler adding his final "Ewig" (eternal) among celesta and harp exquisite sounds. The other five songs are very contrasting in mood, with titles such as "Toast for earthly miseries", "The solitary during Autumn" and "About beauty".
The richness and loveliness of the music puts this vocal symphony at the very top of a not abundant genre.
I am glad to say that we had a very good reading, small details apart: Malvino has a beautiful, steady voice, she is expressive and very musical; Folger sang his very taxing and high-lying music with firm tone and reasonable line; the Orchestra sounded well in the outbursts led by Paternostro with control and strength. Also the instrumental soloists contributed many moments of sheer beauty and excellent command in slow meditative passages.
The Swiss maestro Emmanuel Siffert came back to the National Symphony to lead an attractive and complex programme: Prokofiev´s Third Piano Concerto and Britten´s Spring Symphony. The first is of course a repertoire staple and by far the best of the five piano concertos written by the Russian composer, but it is always worth hearing in a good performance. Fernanda Morello is a very estimable artist and she gave a well-articulated performance of a score of strongly contrasting moods, but she lacks the big guns for those steely and inexorable fragments that appear frequently. The conjunction of soloist and orchestra, very intricate, wasn´t always as accurate as it should be. Morello´s encore, a dreamy Grieg piece, showed her best qualities of tone and sensitivity.
The Britten Symphony dates from 1949 and is largely a positive and exhilarating work after the sad first minutes depicting the final stretch of Winter. It is written for three vocal soloists, mixed and children choir and an ample orchestra. The four parts give us enormously varied textures as we traversed fourteen fragments on different English poets from diverse periods. Such is the variety that there´s not one moment of boredom; this is masterly composition with a gigantic and exhilarating climax at the end.
Rarely done due to its difficulties (the 44 minutes have to be very well rehearsed to arrive at destination unscathed), I was very happy by the overall results. I own the recording led by the composer and it is splendid, but this "porteño" offering was more than honorable. Siffert is certainly a very accomplished musician and obtained a generally satisfying performance from almost all concerned (some trumpet smudges, e.g.).
The bright and confident tones of soprano Laura Penchi, the firm line of mezzosoprano María Luisa Merino Ronda and the clean, musicianly singing of tenor Ricardo González Dorrego gave a fine account of the solo music. The Coro Polifónico Nacional, very well-prepared by Roberto Luvini, sounded out with equilibrium and quality (there are many first-rate voices in it) and the Coro Nacional de Niños (María Isabel Sanz) gave us fresh, well-tuned sound.
So we had two vocal symphonies in a week!
A varied cocktail of musical textures
The Buenos Aires Philharmonic received the visit of Chilean conductor Maximiano Valdés, appreciated from other Colón performances and currently Principal Conductor of the Puerto Rico
Symphony and Artistic Director of the Casals Festival in the same island.
At the last moment it was realized that the programme, originally having two scores, was too short, and a welcome novelty was added : Jan Sibelius´ second tone poem. In fact, this very pleasant and melodious "Spring Song" (1894) had its origin in a previous "Improvisation" and was created close to one of his masterpieces, the "Four Legends" (in fact four tone-poems) that include the famous "Swan of Tuonela". But it was revised in 1902, eliminating a Spanish-tinged passage, and surely that was the version we heard.
Esteban Benzecry, born 1970, is having a successful European career, where his style is liked. He has perfected a rich orchestration, colorfully evoking sounds of American ethnic people with abundant endemic percussion. His Violin Concerto dates from 2006-8, was premièred in 2009 (Paris) and in 2010 at San Juan; now Xavier Inchausti has presented the score in our city and it is worth knowing. As was to be expected, the violinist played with the amazing technique and command for which he is famous, and was apparently very well accompanied.
There are three Evocations. According to the author, the first movement, "Evocation of a dream", mixes Andalusian "cante jondo" with Sephardic reminiscences and invented bird songs. The second evokes a tango atmosphere, and the third, "Evocation of a lost world", takes such elements as the baguala, the carnavalito and the malambo. Formally it resorts to the passacaglia and the toccata.
Shostakovich´s Fifth Symphony is the most often played of his fifteen and with good reason, for it is masterly and very expressive. Premièred at Leningrad in December 1937 with huge success, the author needed that triumph after being condemned by Stalin for his opera "Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk".
Rostropovich opened a controversy when he didn´t accept the usual fast tempo for the final pages and instead rammed them home with tremendous slow power, as he did in Buenos Aires. Thus instead of victory we had tragic drama. I am glad to say that the lucid version of Valdés accepted that point of view and with an orchestra on its toes we had a vivid and moving experience throughout.
Two sessions of the Mozarteum´s Midday Concerts at the Gran Rex gave much satisfaction. Usually they last about 50 minutes, but the recital by Ophélie Gaillard (cello, debut) and Anaïs Crestin (piano) lasted about 70! And I certainly didn´t complain for the artists were first-rate and the programme was beautiful.
Two exquisite French composers alternated with characterful Slavic creators. The "sui generis" Debussy Sonata remains an offbeat, quirky marvel. Four short Fauré pieces were successively a feast of melancholy, charm, uncloying sweetness and mercurial "moto perpetuo": "Élégie", "Sicilienne", "Romance" and "Papillon".
The unmistakable language of Janácek (aching melody and contrasting rhythms) is fully present in the three-movement "Pohádka", "A tale: the story of Zar Berendyey". And finally, the pithy and concentrated Shostakoch Sonata Op.40.
Gaillard is a real find: her fluid technique is matched by a ready sensitiveness and fetching presence. And Crestin (a young French woman living in BA) played accurately and in style; I would only object a certain lack of weight in passages that need it.
The Colón´s Academic Orchestra of the High Institute of Art closed the 55th (!) season of the Midday Concerts. Lucas Macías Navarro is the superb first oboe of the Concertgebouw Orchestra; he has started conducting recently. He will be the soloist in the final concert of the B.A.Philharmonic playing Richard Strauss´ Oboe Concerto.
As oboist and coordinator rather than conductor, he played marvelously Alessandro Marcello´s Concerto, maybe the best Baroque piece for the instrument, adding numerous ornaments with consumate taste and
Schubert´s Fourth Symphony was called "Tragic" by the composer and it is indeed the most urgent and dramatic of his first six, although it was written when he was only 19. Here it was evident that the conductor is still rather green, though certainly musical. Although he obtained good ensemble from the 47 players, his phrasing needed more color and intensity, and the first movement´s main section was just an Allegro, without the necessary "vivace". But it was nice to observe the concentration and enthusiasm of the young executants; they are the breeding ground for the main orchestras and already have a very decent professionalism.
It had rained heavily and the subways were flooded, so the audience was sparse in the stalls; but in the upper floors 800 kids applauded and behaved, and that is surely a positive fact.
Mario Videla is our best Bachian; playing the splendid organ of the Church St John the Baptist he gave lucid and admirable readings of three Buxtehude pieces (a Chaconne, a Choral fantasy and a Prelude and fugue) and of two towering J.S.Bach scores separated by the four-movement Pastorale. The Partita on the chorale "Sei gegrüsset Jesu gütig" is a theme with eleven variations; the final score was the Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C major.
This concert for Festivales Musicales was greatly enhanced by the very good video of Videla´s playing; it adds the visual side to the traditional loneliness of organists and facilitates the understanding of the music.
“Elektra”, the edge of the abyss
Some scores of the Twentieth Century represent the very limit of a long tradition or the irruption of a new style. On this second category, suffice it to mention Stravinsky´s "Rite of Spring", where for the first time in Occidental music the basic parameter is rhythm. Richard Strauss´ "Elektra" (1909) is the prime example of the first category: although the composer had been at certain moments of his symphonic poems (the best in history) close to the complete dissolution of tonality, the feeling of being at the very edge of the abyss is paramount in his greatest opera.
Of course, "Elektra" is a fantastic achievement because it is an ideal blend with one of the greatest librettos ever penned: the transformation by Hugo Von Hoffmannsthal of Sophocles´ seminal tragedy into a Freudian case of sexual obsession and vengeance. The Elektra complex is the counterpart of the Oedipus complex, and the terms have stayed up to present times as synonymous of incestuous love.
There is also the tremendous pulse of death in this work: the word "blood" pervades it. In few operas is the Eros-Thanatos syndrome so strong. The tension almost always seems ready to tear everything apart. The few moments of release come from Elektra´s sister Chrysothemis, who wants to lead a normal life.
The other great part is Klytämnestra, their mother, present in only one scene, but it is a crucial one, harmonically the closest to atonality and dramatically almost unbearable. For we are immersed in Mycenaean Greece just after Troy´s war, very far from the Arcadic feeling of later centuries. Klytämnestra is a monster but a fascinating one.
Orest comes late in the game: the moving Recognition Scene, just before he executes the vengeance killing his mother and her husband Aegisth. And there is a great character that never appears but is essential: Agamemnon, the slaughtered father.
Generally the Colón has tried to put on Strauss operas with quality. "Elektra" already has a powerful tradition at the Colón, ever since Strauss himself leading the Vienna Philharmonic premièred it in 1923. As José Luis Sáenz points out in his useful article, our theatre has punctually revived it every decade up to now.
I was twelve in 1951 when I heard Christel Goltz on the radio (conductor Böhm): even in puberty this opera made a very deep impression on me. Later on I saw Goltz in Vienna (1961), Inge Borkh in Munich (1964), and Nilsson in Vienna (1969). Here I heard Gladys Kuchta in 1966, the splendid Daniza Mastilovic in 1975. I was traveling when during Renán´s time a marvelous threesome was assembled in 1995: Hildegard Behrens, Rysanek as Klytämnestra and Deborah Voigt as Chrysothemis; but fortunately I saw a DVD of it. Finally, the rather poor 2007 revival at the Coliseo.
Well, the 2014 presentation was the best thing of the season. The women were on a high level and had already made their mark here: Linda Watson as Brünnhilde and both Iris Vermillion and Manuela Uhl in that other Straussian masterpiece, "Die Frau ohne Schatten". Watson has vital qualities: stamina (it´s the most trying role in the whole repertoire), firm highs, volume, ability to sing softly and fully, and complete command of the words; on the debit side: she doesn´t dance, the sort of clumsy but meaningful dance indicated by Hoffmannsthal; and her timbre lacks beauty when pressed.
Manuela Uhl (the luminous Empress in "Die Frau ohne Schatten") as Chrysothemis was warm and beautiful, with splendid highs and expansive phrasing, though sometimes her lower range was weak. Iris Vermillion was so perfect as the Amme (Wet-Nurse) in "Die Frau ohne Schatten" that I expected a lot from her, but her Klytämnestra, though certainly quite good, didn´t have the same impact: she didn´t look or sound degraded enough, and her presence was too young, although her command of the music was undeniable.
Hernán Iturralde has the right type of baritone for Orest: compact, dark, of good volume; he should have worn a wig, he looked too elderly. Enrique Folger did well in the short and ungrateful part of Aegisth. The Five Maids weren´t satisfactory except the Fifth, well sung by Marisa Pavón. Of the bit parts I single out the fresh new voice of Eduardo Bosio as Young Servant.
I was very impressed by the huge orchestra led by Roberto Paternostro, absolutely basic for a fine "Elektra". The professional firmness of everyone, the Expressionist response to the innumerable accents, the rapport with the stage, the impeccable tempi, were necessary for the undoubted success of this "Elektra".
A minimalist approach to the staging works well in this case. Pedro Pablo García Caffi was the producer as well as the stage and lighting designer, whilst the costumes were designed by Alejandra Espector. Perhaps it was wise that he didn´t take a bow at the end for there´s turmoil in the orchestra: just before the beginning all the players showed placards in the pit demanding better salaries ( as you know, he is the Colón´s Director). But fair is fair, and he did a good job though with some blemishes.
He opted for several big truncated cones which give a Mycenean impression, the handling of the singers was generally correct except in the Aegisth scene, some lighting effects were good and others seemed too modern. Stairs were missing as well as a cyclopean wall. The clothing by Espector was adequate except perhaps Klytämnestra´s.
Mixed results from foreign artists
Two ensembles with distinguished careers offered concerts for Nuova Harmonia, and in both cases results were less satisfactory than I had hoped for. The one at the Coliseo brought back the Swiss Piano Trio; the other, at the Colón, was the first visit of The Moscow Soloists led by world-famous violist Yuri Bashmet.
The Swiss Piano Trio is made up of pianist Martin Lucas Staub, violinist Angela Golubeva and cellist Sébastien Singer. It exists since 1998 and came to Argentina in 2007 and 2013. The programme biography gives no details about the players, but all three are still young, I´d say in their late thirties or early forties.
Maybe part of the trouble was in the programming: apparently Swiss artists (either born or resident) can´t get financial support for their tours if they don´t include a Swiss (or resident) composer. And, as happened recently with the Camerata Bern, either they don´t choose rightly or composing is currently at a low level in that country. I disliked the Buenos Aires première of Martin Wettstein´s "Alpentangomania" (offered last year at Llao-Llao by these players). It fuses old tangos and Alpine folk melodies in 20 minutes of pretty obvious music, even if there are some added effects.
Beethoven´s Trio Nº 2, Op.1 Nº2, was written in Bonn just prior to the composer´s change of residence to Vienna; he brought the three Trios of Op.1 to the Austrian capital and of them the first two are rather conventional pieces; only Nº 3 gives a definite inkling of Beethoven´s strong personality. It is agreeable Late Classic-style, and it needs some persuasive handling from the players to become interesting. What I heard both here and in Wettstein was professional, noncommittal playing.
The enormous Tchaikovsky Trio was tackled by the artists almost complete: they even included the powerful fugue, often eliminated (the score allows it!), though the final gigantic variation was drastically cut: only the exposition was heard, but the development and recapitulation were cut, so that about 5 minutes were missing, before going on to the lugubrious funeral march ending.
The piano part has grand virtuoso writing similar to that of Tchaikovsky´s First Piano Concerto; Staub is certainly very proficient, but he did have some serious smudges along with many passages of impressive firmness. The string players were here much more present than in the First Part (they have to be, otherwise they are swallowed by the piano). The joint interpretation wasn´t characterful, even if some pieces such as the Waltz variation (encored at the end) had charm; but others lacked enough intensity and that pathetic tchaikovskian sadness wasn´t projected.
As to the Moscow Soloists, I was quite happy with their quality: the eighteen string players are energetic, play with excellent intonation and ensemble and with praiseworthy unanimity. The group was established by Bashmet in 1992. The founder is both conductor and solo violist; in the first capacity he showed fine style in Mozart´s Divertimento K. 136 (perhaps the most overplayed score of the entire string ensemble repertoire) and in Schubert´s Quartet Nº 14, "Death and the Maiden", in the string group arrangement by Gustav Mahler as edited by David Matthews and Donald Mitchell. Schubert´s masterpiece has been wholly respected by Mahler, who only adds basses; some sections are played by the concertino rather than by the violin section. This was dramatic, committed playing.
But...(I can hardly believe it) the disappointment was Bashmet the violist. For his playing of the "Arpeggione" Sonata, also by Schubert, was listless and small-voiced, though accurate. It doesn´t help that the unspecified arrangement for strings of the piano accompaniment was very bland. And the score is minor Schubert, written for an instrument that died almost as soon as it was created. It had six strings tuned like a guitar; currently it is played by cellists. Violists have almost no repertoire for solo viola and strings, so it´s hard to imagine an alternative to this arrangement (the few good concertos for viola are with symphony orchestra).
The programme also included a five-minute première: the enigmatically called "Senza volto" by the Russian Igor Raykhelson, born 1961. Built on a rather jazzy theme, this miniature concerto movement is written for violin (Andrei Poskrobko), viola (Bashmet) and cello (Anton Naidenov); it was pleasant and well played.
The encores were good fun and probably premières: the quirky Polca from Schnittke´s "Suite Gogol" (it certainly has the right satyric tinge to it) and the Waltz from the film "Face of another" by Toru Takemitsu, catchy and bittersweet. Brilliant playing.
The Siberian pianist Konstantin Scherbakov, born 1963, paid us a second visit, thus ending the Chopiniana cycle at the Palacio Paz. Frankly I found his programme very conventional, but it was played with great vitality and virtuoso panache. The well-trodden grounds of Beethoven´s "Moonlight Sonata" (Nº 14) and "Appassionata" (Nº 23) were firmly traversed, though with exaggerated dynamics (and in Nº 14 the intermediate movement was too slow).
The Chopin Second Part included two virtuoso vehicles, the rarely played "Introduction and Rondo" Op.16, and the always effective "Andante spianato and grand brilliant Polonaise" (the Andante too slow), both thrillingly executed. And in the middle the very substantial Ballade Nº3, quite well done.
The first encore was an unknown little jewel, the Prelude Op. 11 Nº1, a dreamy piece by Lyadov. And then, Chopin´s First Waltz, too fast.
“Romeo and Juliet” during “La Belle Époque”
Autonomous City of Buenos Aires. Romeo is the son of River´s hooligan chief ("barrabrava"); Juliet, the daughter of Boca´s counterpart. During a masked milonga at La Boca Romeo and friends peep around with mischievous intent; Romeo and Juliet look at each other for the first time and fall instantaneously in love. Then follow the incidents narrated four centuries ago by a certain Elizabethan playwright and adapted by two 1860s Frenchmen to be clothed with music in that strange contraption, an opera. Well, why not? Is it different from what Mercedes Marmorek did in her staging for Buenos Aires Lírica at the Avenida of Gounod´s "Roméo et Juliette"? In both cases the plot was transported from its time and place to another city and period. The rationale? To bring it closer to our comprehension, for we are too ignorant to accept it in the original conception. Well then, go the whole hog and instead of the Duke of Verona make the Chief of Government sentence Romeo to exile in Berazategui (after all, he is from River, that´s enough to merit chastisement).
As I read the hand programme, I found that the telling of the plot was illustrated by a splendid photograph of Verona and that the action takes place there during the Middle Ages (I rather feel that the proper time is the Renaissance), so there´s something hypocritical about a programme that gives no inkling of the complete transformation of sense and essence that we were about to see. Days later I read an interview with the producer entitled (and I agree) "The Verona lovers, but from the kitsch and vulgar", and it turns out that these are the very words Mercedes Marmorek uses to describe her approach: "an aesthetic vision taken from the Nineteenth-century´s vulgar and kitschy taste". She also says that she was inspired by the St Valentine postcards of that time and that she wanted to eschew realism in the acting, trying to imagine a theatrical play in the Paris of 1890 (yes, we see the Eiffel Tower).
Well, I have no doubt that she accomplished what she wanted. I am equally sure that I heard Gounod´s music and the libretto by Jules Barbier and Michel Carré on the Shakespeare 1595 play, based on Brooke´s 1562 poem. Apart from that, in a few passages I could identify with the characters but mostly I couldn´t: the distortion was too great. And if you really feel that Gounod is so kitschy, why put it on? For this staging disparaged composer and librettists and was an extravaganza rather than the telling of a sentimental and sincere Romantic opera full of beautiful melodies.
I don´t have the space to itemize every aspect that infuriated me, so a few examples will have to suffice. 1) After the Prelude, the stage reveals the sign "L´amour" in lights, hearts transperced by arrows dominate the design, plus a sculptured Cupid: and on this ambience we hear the austere choir that describes the tragic story of two families dominated by hate. 2) Then, the joy of the Capulets Ball includes two ridiculous clowns out of a vaudeville show and four can-can dancers.
3) In the Second Act, as Roméo sings his lovely aria praising the rising sun, what looks a bizarre yellow moon "à la Méliès" brusquely drops from above. 4) Juliet is dressed throughout like a ballerina, from ball to death by way of marriage and night of love; and Romeo as a strange sort of soldier also keeps on the same clothes (the duet after their only night together is quite sexless).
5) Starting the Second Tableau of the Third Act, Romeo´s page Stéphano, a typical trouser role, is converted into a girl singing like a girl. 6) The following scene, with all the sword fighting, is completely ridiculous in a Belle Époque ambience. 7) An absurd little ballet of Cupids accompanies the Prelude to the Fifth Act, "Juliette´s Dream", just before the crypt scene. Enough, you get the idea.
In other words, the concept is all wrong. But to be fair, some things are pleasant to see. The stage design by Nicolás Boni has some handsome frameworks; the costumes by Lucía Marmorek are agreeable though often against the dramatic situation; the lighting (Alejandro Le Roux) has some good ideas. The choreography by Ignacio González Cano was embarrassing.
But there were two reasons to go to this "Roméo et Juliette": Oriana Favaro and Santiago Ballerini. The soprano is fresh, beautiful and sings well (a bit weak in the lows). Ballerini has that rare thing among our tenors, a firm, expansive high range, though he hardly has the "physique du rôle".
Of the others I liked Walter Schwarz (Brother Laurent), Vanesa Mautner (Gertrude, the wet-nurse) and Laura Polverini, a disinvolt Stéphano (though she has to interact with a grotesque invention, a man in armor). Christian Peregrino (Duke of Verona) has an imposing presence but his singing is very woolly. Ernesto Bauer was a miscast Capulet (hindered –not his fault- by a silly hair-do) and Sebastián Angulegui, replacing Ricardo Crampton, was a harsh Mercutio.
Fortunately both Orchestra (under Javier Logioia Orbe) and Choir (Juan Casasbellas) did quite well.
The cuts were the standard ones (ballet and epìthalium in the Fourth Act, and after the death of the lovers the reconciliation of Capulets and Montagus). The French was poor in almost all the singers.
Two Argentine chamber operas plus a Juventus celeb...
Festivales Musicales and Nuova Harmonia wrap up th...
Great Mahler and Britten scores played by our orch...
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Bail Granted To Suspect Accused Of Murder
As of Friday, August 5, 2016
By LAMECH JOHNSON
Tribune Staff Reporter
ljohnson@tribunemedia.net
A MAN awaiting trial on a murder charge was granted bail in the Supreme Court yesterday.
Axanthio Thompson, 28, appeared before Senior Justice Stephen Isaacs for a bail application that was argued by his lawyer Wayne Munroe, QC.
Thompson awaits prosecution concerning the November, 2014, murder of Loren Jermaine Rolle, who was shot and killed in front of a home in Yellow Elder Gardens.
Thompson, who maintains his innocence, had applied for bail before initial trial judge Justice Bernard Turner in September, 2015. However, the court had rejected the application on the grounds that there had been no unreasonable delay in his case that was to be heard on May 23, 2016.
Mr Munroe yesterday said that his client’s case did not commence on that date and has since been adjourned to October, 2017, nearly three years after his initial arraignment in connection with the matter.
The veteran attorney said there was no danger or concern for his client interfering with witnesses in the case as the Crown was only relying on one whose identity has been sealed by the courts.
Ambrose Armbrister, objecting to the application on behalf of the Crown, said there had been no material change in circumstance to warrant the grant of bail.
He also said that the new trial date fell within the 36 months range set by the amended Bail Act for what range constitutes trial within a reasonable time.
Senior Justice Isaacs said he would exercise his discretion to grant bail in the sum of $20,000 with a suretor.
In addition to reporting to the Airport Police Station twice a week, Thompson also will be electronically monitored, a condition to which he did not object.
Suspect in killing of activist’s boyfriend is granted bail
Crown 'wrong' to detain man while it sought evidence
Man facing trial in connection with nightclub shooting granted bail
Witness anonymity extended until start of murder trial, judge rules
Woman accused over McCartney killing denied bail again
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We Care, God Heals
Home | Mission & Vision | What We Do | FAQs | Careers | Contact Us | Testimonials
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Twigle Privacy Policy
Bird Photo Galleries
Birds of Southern Africa
Birds of the UK
Common Pochard - Aythya ferina
The adult male has a long dark bill with a grey band, a red head and neck, a black breast, red eyes and a grey back. The adult female has a brown head and body and a narrower grey bill-band. The triangular head shape is distinctive. Pochards are superficially similar to the closely related North American Redhead and Canvasback.
Habitat and Distribution
Their breeding habitat is marshes and lakes with a metre or more water depth. Pochards breed in much of temperate and northern Europe into Asia. They are migratory, and winter in the southern and west of Europe. In the British Isles, birds breed in eastern England and lowland Scotland, in small numbers in Northern Ireland with , and in the Republic of Ireland. Large numbers overwinter in Great Britain, after the birds retreat from Russia and Scandinavia.
These birds feed mainly by diving or dabbling. They eat aquatic plants with some molluscs, aquatic insects and small fish. They often feed at night, and will up-end for food as well as the more characteristic diving.
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Healing after domestic abuse: Laura's Story
"Violence and abuse was a constant part of my marriage, and I was in denial of the abuse," Laura * told her UCM case manager. A mother of three young childen, she came to UCM after fleeing from an abusive husband of more than 15 years. He was an active military serviceman, and they lived on the base. Laura did not want to discuss the abuse with any one. She was a stay-at-home mom taking care of her children and did not have much contact with people outside of her immediate family.
After she registered in a community college for an associate nursing degree, her school counselor noticed that Laura was sleeping in her car sometimes. She inquired from Laura to know what was going on. Laura shared with her some of the abuse she had been experiencing and why she had left her husband with her children. The school counselor referred Laura and her family to the Fairfax County Department of Family Services, where the Family Liaison connected her with our transitional housing program.
With safe housing and the enabling environment of supportive service provided by UCM, Laura and her family were able to begin to heal and piece their lives back together. Luckily for her, the children did not have to change their schools when they moved to the UCM-provided apartment. She continued in her nursing degree program at a community college. She started babysitting to supplement the temporary child and spousal support income she received from her husband, pending the final outcome of her divorce. Laura's UCM case manager provided as much support as Laura and her children needed.
In May 2015, Laura completed and obtained her associate degree in nursing and passed her board examination. With her final divorce decree and increased child and spousal support, in August 2015 Laura and her family moved out of the supportive housing program into a 3-bedroom market rate housing, after about 7 months in the program. Laura has since started a new job as a nurse at one of the major area hospitals. Her plan is to return to school to study for her Bachelors degree in Nursing, so she can better provide for her children.
"United Community gave me hope when I needed it the most." - Michelle's Story
"You helped make our American Dream possible." - Fernando's Story
" I feel strong and excited about my future."- Lorraine's Story
"We are forever grateful." - Deanna's Story
"We are in a good place now." - Monica's Story
Martina's Story
Meet our 2016 Valencourt Scholarship Awardees
Camila & Alex's Story - Healthy Families Fairfax
"Thank you for believing in me." - Teen Deneisha's Story
Resume Workshop Success
A Fairy Tale Gone Wrong - Lillian's Story
It's Scary to Be Homeless
Jane's Story
Kathy's Story
Making Strides in School: Isaac's Story
Teen Mom Aira's Story
From Babbling to Bubbling: Troy's Story
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The Glass Elevator
Powerful voices around the world continue to insist that women must be given an equal opportunity to contribute to communities and economies. The discussion is no longer about equity alone. The data has proven that for better outcomes, women must be present in greater numbers in leadership and decision-making roles.
As we grapple with the pace of change, with the increasingly urgent need to adapt to the uncertainty, and the need to take advantage of the opportunities, there is an understanding that we cannot afford to waste the talent that exists in the female population.
As disruption shakes those incumbents and their business models with technological advances and solutions, we still need human capital. Countries around the world must harness the creativity, courage and resilience of their people in order to realise new opportunities for sustainable and shared prosperity. And so it follows that we must invest in our people to ensure that they are innovative, productive and global citizens.
Pottinger is proud to support women through its Glass Elevator Initiative: to connect, inspire and engage women.
Pottinger is joined by our proud corporate sponsors in Australia: Asciano; Unilever; Microsoft; Qantas; and Jetstar.
And we are excited to announce that, due to popular request, the Glass Elevator will be expanding to the United States in 2017! Watch this space for updates.
Tweets by @MyGlassElevator
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Alex Wolfe | February 3rd, 2015 | 0 Comments
If you haven’t kept up with the Consumer Electronics Show this year, here is a review of the best of the best that were on display at CES 2015.
The Dell Venue 8 7000 series tablets feature a quad-core processor, 2GB of RAM, and an impressive 8.4” OLED display with a resolution of 2560×1600. While 2GB of RAM and a quad-core processor aren’t really considered the best specs anymore, it’s more than enough to surf the web, watch Netflix, check emails, and use other apps on the Android OS. One of the standout features of the tablet is the “Infinity Display” which is what they’re calling the almost bezel-less screen. There is also a front facing speaker grill at the bottom of the tablet along with a 2MP front camera. Dell has also joined the thinness competition packing all of the hardware into a frame that is only 6mm thick. Personally, I would have rather seen dual front facing stereo speakers on the top and the bottom of the display versus the “Infinity Display” with the large bezel at the bottom.
Samsung JS9500 Series
When you think about the biggest electronic in the average consumer’s living room, what comes to mind? In mine, it’s the TV. From the furniture placement to the surround sound system, everything in my living room is based around my TV. Samsung presented some gorgeous “SUHD” TVs this past week at CES. According to Samsung, the “S” in SUHD has no significance, but the UHD stands for Ultra-High Definition or simply 4K. The new lineup of SUHD TVs from Samsung will come in only two large sizes including 65” and a massive 88”. These TVs use a new technology called “quantum dots” which are actually nano-crystals that will help achieve better colors and brighter backlighting than conventional LED technology. Samsung has also joined the UHD Alliance, which includes huge partners such as Disney, Dolby, and Netflix, which will be dedicated to providing a true UHD experience from Hi-Definition sound to UHD content. The 2015 Samsung TVs will also be compatible with the relatively new Playstation Now service, which will provide a console-free gaming experience. I would also like to point out the stand that Samsung has included with the JS9500 series. These look like the best TV stands I have ever seen.
Samsung Portable SSD T1
If you’re external hard drives are aged and running slower than you’d like them to, Samsung has a great replacement! The Portable SSD T1 is an external drive enclosing a Samsung 850 Evo SSD. The Portable SSD will be available in three capacities including 250GB, 500GB, and 1TB with pricing at $180, $300, and $600 respectively. Like all external drives, the price will be higher than the bare drive, but you’re also getting a sleek enclosure that supports USB 2.0 and 3.0, and will be compatible with any computer out of the box. The Portable SSD T1 will also be bus powered, meaning there will be no external power required and will be fully functional from the provided USB cable.
Razer has finally joined the Android TV arena with a new set-top box called Forge TV. Unlike other Android TV systems, Forge TV is made specifically for gamers. Packed with a quad-core snapdragon 805 (Yes, the one found in many smartphones), an Adreno 420 GPU, 2GB RAM, 16GB storage, 802.11ac wifi, and Bluetooth 4.1, the Forge TV will easily run any android game, but that’s not the best part. With the Razer Cortex: Stream, you’ll be able to stream games stored on your PC or Mac via wifi and play full-blown PC games on your TV. Razer also has optional Bluetooth peripherals that you can add, which include a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse.
What was your favorite tech out of CES 2015? Tell us in the comments below!
Tags: CES | Featured | Technology 0
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Tech Roundup: Razer Sound Bar, 8TB HDD, & More
Happy 2015 and welcome back to ThinkDope! Kicking it off we will be rounding up some of the best new gear from December in our Tech Roundup!
About Alex Wolfe
Alex Wolfe is an Accounting/Information Systems major at Texas a Tech University. When he's not busy with school, he enjoys playing outside with his dog and gaming on Xbox One. He has a huge interest in mobile devices and future technology.
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[To v3.0 forum] > v2.0 pre-2020 archive Board Index < The Future of Science
recovered: Meyl's Modifications to Maxwell's Equations
Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed? Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and forbidden questions in the sciences. Is peer review working? The perverse "consensus of leading scientists." Good public relations versus good science.
pln2bz
Re: recovered: Meyl's Modifications to Maxwell's Equations
Unread post by pln2bz » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:02 pm
An attempt to re-translate page 573 of "Scalar Waves" ...
Have you ever heard of the Maxwell-experiment? No, you couldn’t possibly have, since its intellectual father quickly backed down after it didn't work out. Today one speaks of the Michelson-experiment and it may be connected with many other names (Morley, etc.). Remember: In his light theory Maxwell had determined a particular and constant value for the speed of light, and for that there should be a physical reason, which should have its cause in the aether. By means of proving this aether, Maxwell wanted to prove his theory. But this enterprise thoroughly failed.
The thought was as follows: If the Earth is spinning and is moving through the cosmos, then one should be able to detect an aether wind and different values for c in the different points of the compass. Maxwell found support for his project at the observatory, since with the aberration of the stars Bradley had previously described an observation which could be considered as evidence for an aether. The director of the observatory charged his assistant Dr. Michelson with the task, to carry out a corresponding proof of an aether, this time in a terrestrial experiment. But such an aether couldn't be proven and Maxwell had to accept this as a severe blow to his light theory. However, seven years later, Maxwell received acknowledgement from a completely different place by means of Heinrich Hertz’s experiments with radio transmissions.
To this day, the astrophysical question of the aether has remained open, whereas its detection within terrestrial laboratories casts doubt upon the existence of an aether. But the aether can't be abolished so long as it remains unsettled why light propagates with, of all possible velocities, value c. The question is asked, what determines the propagation of light from today's point of view? Now, by means of outside fields, light can be slowed down. At present, the world record lies at less than 65 kilometers per hour in a Bose-Einstein condensate. If electromagnetic fields determine the speed of light, and if in addition a field or gravitational lenses should confirm this, then the field takes over the task of the aether!
At this point the new field-theoretical approach shows its capabilities. The equations of transformation say nothing but that a moving H-field transforms to a resting E-field, and vice versa; that thus, in the place of a moving aether, the aether wind, a resting aether is found. Doing so, the dual field partners merely exchange their places. Therefore, when we try to measure the aether wind which underlies the same field with gauges, it is a wild-goose chase. Michelson had to fail.
I'm confused at the ending, the conclusion, the important part. Here is the original text ...
If electromagnetic fields determine the speed of light, if in addition field or gravitational lenses should confirm this, then the field takes over the task of the aether!
At this place the new field-theoretical approach shows its capabilities. The equations of transformation say nothing but that a moving H-field transforms to a resting E-field and vice versa, that thus in the place of a moving aether, the aetherwind, a resting aether is found. Doing so the dual field partners merely exchange their places. Therefore it is a wild-goose chase, wanting to measure an aetherwind with gauges, which underlie the same field (fig. 28.2). Michelson had to fail.
Seems like there's something wrong with my translation. I don't quite get it. Any ideas?
From Konstantin Meyl’s Scalar Waves, page 191, not sure about bolded parts (help?):
It is important that experts try to solve problems. Only if the discussion about limits doesn't come to a result which can be grasped and verified, then also in the environmental compatibility the willingness will grow, to accept a not yet known phenomenon as a further and possibly crucial influential factor.
Already for a hundred years there has been a dispute between experts. At that time scientists all over the world were trying to verify the experiments of Heinrich Hertz. Then from America came the message that Hertz had been mistaken and the electromagnetic wave possessed completely different properties. Europe’s scientists were indignant, but they had to take the message seriously because it after all came from the important experimental physicist, Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who with his inventions of the rotary field and of the asynchronous motor has affected today's electric energy technology like no other.
As a result, Lord Kelvin boarded a steamship as a mediator and sailed in 1897 to New York to convince Tesla that he was wrong. But the experiments which Tesla presented his Lordship didn't leave any doubts, and thus Kelvin returned to Europe with the message: "Both are right, Tesla as well as Hertz! Whereas the electromagnetic wave which Hertz has detected, is a transverse wave, Tesla works with a longitudinal wave!" Lord Kelvin as a result started to draw very different vortex models, because it was clear to him that propagation as a longitudinal standing wave analogous to the sound wave is only conceivable if quantized structures exist, which mutually knock each other. Kelvin therefore assumed vortex structures of the electromagnetic field. His vortex models were published and landed in the curiosity box of orthodox science.
Heinrich Hertz did have a big advantage. He could refer to Maxwell and calculate his wave with the field equations. For modern technology, its mathematical calculability is almost an indispensable prerequisite!
For Tesla’s wave there however existed neither a mathematical nor a physical theory. The only thing Tesla had were presentable experiments.
In Colorado Springs, he had built a 10 kW transmitting installation and lit 200 fluorescent lamps of 50 Watts each on a mountain in the Rocky Mountains at a distance of 25 miles. With that he had completely transmitted 10 kW of transmission power, as can be inferred from the press reports at that time. Even after over 100 years, this experiment would not be technologically possible with Hertzian waves, which propagate spatially. According to the law of the square of the distance, one isn't even able to make glow a tiny little lamp at such a distance.
For sure, his rotary field theory was a big help for Tesla in all of his experiments. And in fact, a rotary field can be seen as the special case of a planar vortex.
Thus, Tesla obviously was able to use the potential vortex without even knowing it. Tesla has stimulated a loosely coupled high tension coil wound like a spiral to self-resonant oscillations and emitted the produced vortices over an antenna (fig. 9.1). On the receiver side the process was then reversed.
What is the rotary field?
On pages 215 – 217:
The correctness of a new theory can not by all means guarantee that it also is accepted! A new theory must be used. An acknowledgement is to be expected only if a concrete need exists, and only then by the direct beneficiaries.
In November 1994 in Munich, the trade fair "Electronica" took place. Here, invited by the Deutschen Gesellschaft fur EMV-Technologie (German association for EMC-technology, note of the translator), books written about potential vortices [Al, A2] were honored with a prize by an internationally renowned EMC-scientist. The number of people who the potential vortex theory helps further to find answers to problems, which until now have remained inexplicable, grows further.
Nevertheless, nobody should believe that the textbooks on the shelves will be changed that fast. Habit and laziness encourage us to further use dominant interpretation, even if a new theory demonstrates a better and convincing answer. To give an example, it will take some time until the heating of water in a microwave oven is explained as eddy losses, as it is properly described by the potential vortex theory already today. The discovery of a physical phenomenon may happen in a fright second. Its acknowledgement, on the other hand, as a rule is a lengthy procedure. If we look back in history we find out that even in the past it hasn't been otherwise.
Of the four fundamental phenomena in fig. 8.2 at first the tension voltages and the charges have been discovered by Coulomb (5.7e).
(5.7c): An effect of the eddy currents was observed already in 1825 by the French physicist Arago. He discovered that a magnetic needle suspended above a rotating disc tends to rotate along. Out of ignorance, he named the effect "rotational magnetism". But the eddy currents could only be mathematically described with the help of two laws, the law of Ampere (1820) and Faraday’s law of induction (1831). Because the effect due to the eddy current losses was instead regarded as disturbing, technical applications or patents were impossible. Riidenberg first carried out fundamental calculations for eddy current brakes in 1906. The discovery and usage of the "skin effect" is to be attributed to Tesla.
(5.7b): The electromagnetic wave for the first time was mathematically described by Maxwell (1864). He had aimed to calculate light and he could show that his theory actually could correctly describe all properties of light. With that he was able to prove the correctness of his theory. But he had to deal with many sceptics, because he had postulated the dielectric displacement, without ever in his lifetime being able to measure it due to its smallness.
This may be the reason why the discovery is attributed to Heinrich Hertz and was and is spoken of as the Hertzian wave. Neutrally seen, Hertz at first was nothing more than an enthusiastic pupil who had worked through Maxwell’s "Treatise". All results which Hertz could observe experimentally were already contained in the Maxwell-theory and published.
But Maxwell’s great mathematical description at first had a purely academic importance. The interest of the general public on the other hand concentrates on practical applicability. Hertz had experimented with antennas and has laid the foundations of the building of a gauge for electromagnetic waves (1888). The wireless transmission of invisible waves was convincing. It was an entirely new technology, which stimulated fantasy in view of a technical usage. Marconi was a practical man who was stimulated by theoretical realizations. He invented the radio (1895, Nobel prize: 1909).
Between the three achievements -- first the calculation, second, and at the same time the discovery and measurement, and third, the application of the wave phenomenon -- lay 31 years. And radio technology is developing still further, even today. A gold-mining mood prevails in the area of the cellular phone network and in telecommunications, which is barely affected by hints of electromagnetic environmental compatibility issues.
Amidst the euphoria of the past 100 years and completely fallen into obscurity is the fact that besides Hertz’s detection of the transverse wave in the wave equation according to Laplace and according to the original version of Maxwell, a longitudinal wave was also mathematically described. This one was discovered and detected by Tesla in numerous experiments. With reference to his discovery, Tesla had initially publicly asserted that Hertz had been at fault, an assertion that the scientific community believed to be undoubtedly wrong and for which he was scorned. As a result of this development, his experiments haven't been reproduced and the discovery of the scalar wave would fall into oblivion.
Not enough, with such sanctions against the inconvenient freethinker Tesla, a series of professors like Gibbs and Heaviside have made cuts and discarded all parts from the original version of Maxwell’s Equations, which at that time weren't considered to be experimentally proven by experiments of Ampere, Faraday, Ohm and Hertz. With those changes, scalar waves fell victim to the axe even though the changes had encountered severe criticism. Once Hertz also sanctioned these measures, they were finally codified as textbook opinion into all textbooks.
If the field equations according to Maxwell in today's revised version don't describe scalar waves anymore, then all orthodox scientists who want to make reference to the revised Maxwell’s Equations have to bear one thing in mind: discarding a term of an equation is the same as neglecting it. But the term may only be neglected if it is sufficiently small. The first thing every student learns in his physical practical training is that of testing. For that, the term has to be measured and its order of magnitude must be determined. It’s of little help and even extremely unscientific if on the basis of the revised field equations, which have put all scalar waves to zero, it’s demonstrated that the neglect was allowed or even necessary.
A practical example is the longitudinal wave parts, as they occur and are proven in the near-field of transmitter antennas. Considering their order of magnitude, neglect is out of the question. On the other hand, they should not exist at all according to textbook physics because they had fallen victim to the axe. Since most scientists in the present time are no longer aware of their removal, they are postulating field vortices anew in the proximity of an antenna. Field vortices propagate longitudinally in the direction of a field pointer as a scalar wave.
With that they calculate their own arbitrary assumption. If in the practical training of physics, a student neglects an essential factor of influence, then his experiment fails. The experiment must be repeated until, according to the approved methods of scientific soundness, all used neglects have been tested individually and have undergone an error consideration.
Do we now have to deny the cutting action, which had been plotted by Gibbs, Heaviside and others, as having the necessary scientific soundness? Do we have to review and rework all textbooks concerning the illegal neglect? Since the cutting action a gap gapes in the field theory!
(5.7d): The potential vortex fills the remaining gap in fig. 8.2. Several scientists can be named who could already observe this phenomenon: most prominently, Nikola Tesla, for his discovery of Tesla currents, where very weak currents are said to cause extremely high potentials. Here, presumably cause and effect have been mixed up, because weak currents can never produce high potentials. Actually, the potentials prove to be a result of the potential vortices, whereas the currents aren't more than a side-effect, nothing but leakage currents. Even though Tesla could use the vortex, without a usable theory he could neither calculate nor adequately explain it. Besides Tesla, Wilhelm Reich, who has collected the vortices in his orgone accumulator, should be mentioned.
For the most part, only certain aspects were observed and investigated: the planar vortex by Tesla, the influence on the weather by Reich, the water vortices by Schauberger, and by all three their medical and biological aspects. The list of names is incomplete and could arbitrarily be continued.
With the discovery of the potential vortex in 1990, the basis for the building of a gauge and the technical application of the physical phenomenon is prepared. It not only concerns the search for water, but also the detection of the vortex balls and vortex streets, of the standing waves of the energy radiation in the air, at the workplace, in the bedroom, in clinics, in recreational areas and in hotels. As explained at the start, neither the field strength of a Hertzian wave nor the arising heat development can be made responsible for biological or technical harm.
It’s primarily the newly discovered vortices of the electric field which take effect. The effects can, as we have seen, be both good for health as well as bad for health. Intensity, plane of polarization, vortex configurations and many other characteristics play a role here. Vortex gauges will be needed to research these influential factors.
We have to realize that in the technical domain the electromagnetic compatibility of an apparatus is determined by its sensitiveness to vortices, thus by the fact how many and which vortices can cause a function trouble. To determine the environmental compatibility of a product, the emitted vortices, the energy radiation, have to be measured. Limits for high tension lines and for screens or handheld phones must be given in units of the potential vortices. The potential vortex has shown us the way to a unified theory and has brought along a new picture and understanding of our environment. It wants to show us an ecologically compatible way of using scalar waves in nature.
StefanR
Unread post by StefanR » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:14 pm
Your translation is fine and you will get what he means. But it is difficult to condense the subject matter as you can also see in the thread you made about Maxwell.
The Hafele–Keating experiment was a test of the theory of relativity. In October of 1971, J. C. Hafele and Richard E. Keating took four caesium-beam atomic clocks aboard commercial airliners and flew twice around the world, first eastward, then westward, and compared the clocks against those of the United States Naval Observatory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele-Keating_experiment
This experiment you can find back in the book on page 271 13.2 The clock paradox
.......... ( ) ........The reason for the measured difference in going is seen in the field and here specially in
the different gravitational field. The centrifugal force directed opposite to the gravitational
force at least is not the same, because for a westward flight along the equator the speed of
the plane vf should be subtracted from the velocity of rotation of the earth vE, whereas in
eastward direction it should be added (eq. 13.1).
For the steering quanta supplied by the caesium resonator now the energy balance is put
up (13.5 with 13.4) and the change of the reference frequency is calculated (13.7). With
the change in frequency is connected directly a change of the at the two clocks readable
times t1,2 (13.8). For a journey around half the earth, where one clock is flown westwards
and the other one eastwards, the difference in going should, according to the calculation,
amount to 207 ns. Interesting of the result (13.11) undoubtedly is, that the velocity of the
planes doesn"t play a role. It is cancelled out.
October 1971 caesium atomic clocks were sent around the world in scheduled planes in
the Hafele-Keating experiment. To be able to estimate the inaccuracy in going of the
clocks and with that the measurement error, four clocks were used. Between the westward
journey (273 ±7 ns) and the eastward journey (59 ±10 ns) a difference in time of 214
nanoseconds was determined. This under strict scientific conditions determined result
once more proves the correctness of the theory of objectivity by confirmation of the
calculated value. That however is not valid for the special theory of relativity, because that
doesn't appear in the calculation at all!
Who now believes, we would have less problems with the dimension of space, I must
disappoint. The determination of the linear measures equally ends in a fiasco.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
Rudjer Boskovic (Boscovich, 1711-1787)
The greatest and most famous Croatian philosopher and scientist Rudjer Boskovic (Boscovich, 1711-1787), was born in
Dubrovnik, where he was educated in the Jesuit Collegium. He was a member of the Royal Society of London, a member of
St.Petersbug Academy, "membre correspondant" of the French Academie Royale des Sciences, a member of the Accademia
dell'Arcadia, a professor at many European universities. Very delicate work on repairing the cupola of St. Peter's church
in the Vatican (diameter: 42m) was entrusted to R. Boskovic, a proof that he was a leading European authority for static
computations and civil engineering of that time. Upon the request of Austrian Empress Maria Theresia, Boskovic was
solving the problem of stability of Royal Library (now National Library) in Vienna.
He was also the founder of the astronomical observatory in Brera near Milan. In 1773 a charter granted by Louis XV made
him a French subject. Soon he was appointed by Louis XV to a very prestigious position and became the Director of
Naval Optics of the French Navy in Paris (Optique Militaire de la Marine Royale de France). He left to his adoptive
country an achromatic telescope and micrometer. Boskovic spent nine years in France, and became a good friend
to many outstanding scientist, like the mathematician Clairaut, Lalande, Buffon. When D'Alembert took him for
Italian, he hastened to correct him.
Boskovic stayed 7 months in England and met many famous scientists there: James Bradley (famous astronomer),
George Parker (president of the Royal Academy), Samuel Johnson (Lexicographer), Edmund Burke
(philosopher and political writer), Joshua Reynolds (the first president of the Royal Academy of Arts), and others.
It is interesting that in England he designed a telescope filled with water in all its components, which was implemented
at the Greenwich observatory in 1871, that is, 84 years after his death. He also met Benjmanin Franklin, who
showed him some of his electrical experiments, see an article by Branko Franolic.
When Charles Burney, a well known English musicologist, met Boskovic in Milan, he wrote: ...if all Jesuits were like
this father, who uses the higher science and the work of mind to advance science for the happiness of
mankind, then it were to be wished that this society were as durable as is this world. Boskovic was buried in the
church of S. Maria Podone in Milano.
William Thompson-Kelvin, the English physicist (19/20 centuries), once expressed his opinion that his atomic
theory is a pure "Boskovicianism." Still earlier, Sir Humphry Davy, professor of physics and chemistry at
the Royal Institution in London from 1802 till 1827, mentioned the name of Boskovic on several occasions in his Diary
(Commonplace Book), accepting his atomistic theory. The diary is kept in the archives of the Royal Institution in London.
Also a famous Irish mathematician and physicist R.W. Hamilton wrote extensively about Boskovic's theory of forces.
With his theory of forces R. Boskovic was a forerunner of modern physics for almost two centuries. It was
described in his most important book Theoria Philosophiae naturalis (Vienna 1758, Venice 1763, London 1922,
American edition in 1966).
Werner Heisenberg (Nobel prize for physics in 1932) wrote the following:
Among scientists from the 18th century Boskovic occupies outstanding place as a theologian, philosopher,
mathematician, and astronomer. His "Theoria philosophiae naturalis" announced hypotheses which were confirmed only in
the course of last fifty years.
Indeed, see his graph of regions of attractive and repelling forces between material points (elementary particles), the closest
region being repelling, tending to infinity (nuclear force!; see here; published in his Dissertationes de lumine pars
secunda, 1748), and the farthest region is repelling, corresponding to gravitational force:
This graph was since 1763 called the Boskovic curve (curva Boscovichiana).
Robert Marsh, the author of Physics and Poets, credits Boskovic with the idea of FIELD. Faraday and others took the i
dea from him, see here. He was the first to apply probability to the theory of errors. Laplace and Gauss
acknowledged their indebtedness to his work which led to the Legendre principle of least squares in statistics
(stating that the best fitting line is the one with the smallest sum of squared residuals).
http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/et111.html
Boskovic's magnum opus, Philosophiae naturalis theoria redacta ad unicam legem virium in natura existentium,
was published in Vienna in 1758. A bilingual Latin-English edition was published in Chicago and London in 1922 under
the title A Theory of Natural Philosophy. Boskovic always wanted to visit Newton's homeland. Finally his wish became
reality when he was sent on a mission to London, and on 23 January 1760 he landed at Dover. The following day he
went to Greenwich to see the famous observatory. In London he was well received in all circles, as his
reputation amongst scientists and scholars had preceded him. He met Benjamin Franklin, who demonstrated
to him his electrical experiments, and he dined with Dr Samuel Johnson. He also had discussions with representatives
of the Church of England, and visited Oxford and Cambridge.
Boskovic attended several meetings of the Royal Society in London, at which he stressed the importance of observing
the imminent transit of Venus across the sun. He even submitted a Latin treatise to the Society entitled De Proximo
veneris sub Sole Transitu, which was published in volume 51 of Philosophical Transactions (1759-60). Soon
afterwards, he dedicated to the Society his Latin poem De solis et lunae defectibus (On the eclipses of the sun and
the moon), which was printed in London in the autumn of 1760. On 15 January 1761, the Royal Society elected
Boskovic a Fellow, a month after he had reluctantly left England (on 15 December 1760).
After Ruder Boskovic visited England, his theory of atomism spread throughout Great Britain and served as
the basis for a number of scientific points of view during his lifetime. There is a long tradition in Britain relating
to Boskovic's theory of natural philosophy, set out in his seminal work Theoria philosophiae naturalis . . .
(2nd edn, Venice, 1763). While he was still alive his theory was accepted by the famous British philosophical scientists
Joseph Priestley and John Robinson. Although Boskovic's theory and its application were discussed throughout Europe,
there were differences between Great Britain and the rest of Europe. In Europe the theory was considered more critically,
especially because of Boskovic's belief that the fundamental particles of matter were immaterial atoms. It is certainly
relevant that in Boskovic's tune the British were already trying to combine purely empirical facts with the philosophical
tradition: this explains the subsequent attempts to reconcile Boskovic's abstract natural philosophy with
empiricism. Particularly important is Boskovic's influence on five great men of British science: Humphry Davy,
Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin and Joseph John Thomson. (((Of course the writer
of this piece ought to have added Nicola Tesla!)))
http://www.hic.hr/books/latinists/01latin.htm
His unusual talents manifested themselves particularly during the years devoted to literary and philosophical
studies at the Collegio Romano, the most celebrated of the colleges of the Society of Jesus. Thus, for example,
young Boscovich discovered for himself the proof of the theorem of Pythagoras. His professor, especially
Father Horatio Borgondi, professor of mathematics, knew how to cultivate talents, and he made such progress, especially
in mathematics, that he was able to take the place of his former professor at the Roman College even before the completion
of his theological studies......
He performed the duties of this office with much distinction for a whole generation, as is evidenced by the numerous
Latin dissertations which he published nearly every year, according to the custom of the time. These show Boscovich's
preference for astronomical problems. Among them may be mentioned:
* The Sunspots (1736);
* The Transit of Mercury (1737);
* The Aurora Borealis (1738);
* The Application of the Telescope in Astronomical Studies (1739);
* The Figure of the Earth (1739);
* The Motion of the heavenly Bodies in an unresisting Medium (1740);
* The Various Effects of Gravity (1741);
* The Aberration of the Fixed Stars (1742).
Problems in pure mathematics as well as philosophical speculations regarding the various theories on the constitution
of matter also engaged his attention and he took an active part in all scientific discussions which agitated the learned
world of his time. To these belong his The Deviation of the earth from the probable Spherical Shape; Researches
on Unusual Gravitation; The Computation of a Comet's Orbit from a Few Observations, etc........
Pope Benedict XIV commissioned him and his fellow Jesuit, Le Maire, to carry out several precise meridian arc
measurements, and it seems to have been due chiefly to his influence that the same pope, in 1757, abrogated the
obsolete decree of the Index against the Copernican system.......
Many universities outside of Italy sought to number Boscovich among their professors. He himself was full of the spirit
of enterprise, as was shown when King John V of Portugal petitioned the general of the Jesuits for ten Fathers to make
an elaborate survey in Brazil. He voluntarily offered his services for the arduous task, hoping thus to be able to carry
out an independent survey in Ecuador, and so obtain data of value for the final solution to the problem of the figure
of the earth, which was then exciting much attention in England and France. His proposal lead to the initiation
of similar surveys in the Papal States, the pope taking this means of retaining him in his own domain.
Besides his work in mathematical astronomy, we also find Boscovich speculating, upon scientific grounds, on
the essence of matter and endeavoring to establish more widely Newton's law of universal gravitation. As early
as 1748 we meet essays from his pen in this field of thought, e.g. De materiae divisibilitate et du principiis
corporum dissertatio (1748); De continuitatis lege et ejus consectariis pertinentibus ad prima materiae elementa
eorumque vires (1754); De lege virium in natura existentium (1755); Philosophiae naturalis theoria redacta ad
unicam legem virium in natura existentium (1758). Boscovich, according to the views expressed in these
essays, held that bodies could not be composed of a continuous material substance, nor even of contiguous material
particles, but of innumerable point-like structures whose individual components lack all extension and divisibility.
A repulsion exists between them which is indeed infinitesimal but cannot vanish without compenetration taking place.
This repulsion is due tocertain forces with which these elements are endowed. It tends to become infinite when
they are in very close proximity, whereas within certain limits it diminishes as the distance is increased and finally
becomes an attractive force. This change is brought about by the diverse direction of the various forces. Boscovich
divided his last-mentioned exhaustive work into three parts, first explaining and establishing his theory, and
then pointing out his applications to mechanical problems, and finally showing how it may be employed in physics.
His attempt to reduce the complicated laws of nature to a simple fundamental law aroused so much interest
that in 1763 a third, and enlarged edition of his "Theoria philosphiae naturalis" (Venice, 1763) had become necessary.
The publisher added as an appendix a catalogue of Boscovich's previous works. There are no less than sixty-six treatises
dating from 1736--a proof of his literary activity. Some have already been mentioned, and to these may be added his
"Elementorum matheseos tomi tres," in quarto (1752)......
While in England he gave the impulse to the observations of the approaching transit of Venus, on 6 June, 1761,
and it is not unlikely that his proposal to employ lenses composed of liquids, to avoid chromatic aberration, may have
contributed to Dolland's success in constructing achromatic telescopes......
Boscovich, by his rare endowments of mind and the active use which he made of his talents, was preeminent among
the scholars of his time. His merits were recognized by learned societies and universities, and by popes and princes who
honored him and bestowed favors upon him. He was recognized as a gifted teacher, an accomplished leader in
scientific enterprises, an inventor of important instruments which are still employed (such as the ring-micrometer, etc.) and
as a pioneer in developing new theories............
The invention of the ring-micrometer, just mentioned, which Boscovich describes in his memoir "De novo telescopii
usu ad objecta coelestia determinanda" (Rome, 1739), has been ascribed without reason by some to the Dutch natural
philosopher Huygens. The chief advantage of the simple measuring instrument designed by Boscovich consists in
its not requiring any artificial illumination of the field of the telescope. This makes it useful in observing faint objects,
as its inventor expressly points out in connection with the comet of 1739. The novel views of Boscovich in the domain
of natural philosophy have not, up to the present time, passed unchallenged, even on the part of Catholic
scholars. Against his theory of the constitution of matter the objection has been raised that an inadmissible actio in
distans is inevitable in the mutual actions of the elementary points of which material bodies are supposed to be
composed. The theory therefore leads to Occasionalism. Acknowledgement must, however, must be
made of the suggestiveness of Boscovich's work in our own day, and the germs of many of the conclusions of modern
physics may be found in it. His illustrious successor at the Observatory of the Collegio romano, Father Angelo Secchi, in
his "Unita delle forze fisiche" has in many respects followed in his footsteps, and in fact the cosmological
views held by many later natural philosophers furnish unequivocal proof of the influence of the theories maintained by
Boscovich.
Among his many smaller works (for a full list, cf. Sommervogel, cited below), the following deserve special attention:
De annuis stellarum fixarum aberrationibus (Rome, 1742); De orbitus cometarum determinandis ope trium observationem
parum a se invicem remotarum (Paris, 1774); De recentibus compertis pertinentibus ad perficiendam dioptricam (1767).
His chief works, however, are:
* De litteraria expeditione per Pontificam ditionem (1755);
* Theoria philosophiae naturalis (1758);
* Opera pertinentia ad opticam at Astronomiam maxima ex parte nova et omnia hucusque inmedita (1785).
This part is more of a bridge from the previous page to this one and is not really necessary for the content of the page.
In 1882, Nikola Tesla identified the rotating magnetic field principle, and pioneered the use of a rotary field of force to operate machines. He exploited the principle to design a unique two-phase induction motor in 1883. In 1885, Galileo Ferraris independently researched the concept. In 1888, Ferraris published his research in a paper to the Royal Academy of Sciences in Turin.
http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/NoteofMonth/ ... enegro.htm
or for the electrically challenged
Rotary Engine Theory
http://www.aviation-history.com/engines ... theory.htm
all used neglects have been tested individually and have undergone an error consideration.
He is questioning here the reasons and validity of neglecting parts of mathemetical representations of physical models for the mere fact of simplification. Which is done in more fields of science. And with that running the risk of using a equation which will not describe the subject correctly and thereby drawing the wrong conclusions.
thus by the fact how many and which vortices can cause a function trouble
plain electromagnetic interference in German vortex slang. think of conductor losses in the for of heat or just walk around your Hertz-antenna and see what interferes.
Unread post by pln2bz » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:27 pm
StefanR --
What are your thoughts about learning David Thomson's Aether Physics Model? Is there something in particular that is holding you back? It seems to me that if you already understand Meyl, then you understand how to work with scalar waves in a computational manner. But, you won't fully understand why those equations work until you actually attempt to learn a model for the aether's structure. From what I can tell, Meyl doesn't offer that. David Thomson is the only one who offers that, and from what I can tell so far, the APM is pretty much compatible with Meyl's scalar wave work. The APM uses the exact same data as quantum physics. Thomson just provides the aether perspective for that data. The idea that the physical constants derive from the geometry of the aether is so fundamental that it is difficult to argue with. Thomson's claim that there are two separate charge carriers is based entirely upon the fact that electromagnetic charge tends to distribute over the surface of a conductor. The proper dimension for electromagnetic charge is in fact e^2. If you don't correct for this problem, it will lead to others. I see much logic in Thomson's approach, and we need more people like you, who are already familiar with Meyl, taking a look at his work. I feel strongly that *both* the APM and Meyl are the future of the Electric Universe. I think that they say the exact same thing from two different perspectives, and that both are compatible with the EU. We have to start this process of synthesizing all of these theories together, and the first step, IMHO, is convincing people to learn all three.
Unread post by StefanR » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:23 am
plnbz wrote: [What are your thoughts about learning David Thomson's Aether Physics Model? Is there something in particular that is holding you back? It seems to me that if you already understand Meyl, then you understand how to work with scalar waves in a computational manner. But, you won't fully understand why those equations work until you actually attempt to learn a model for the aether's structure.
I would not mind getting to know his Model, but time is short. Could you point me to the best places to inform myself concerning Thomson?
plnbz wrote: From what I can tell, Meyl doesn't offer that. David Thomson is the only one who offers that, and from what I can tell so far, the APM is pretty much compatible with Meyl's scalar wave work. The APM uses the exact same data as quantum physics. Thomson just provides the aether perspective for that data. The idea that the physical constants derive from the geometry of the aether is so fundamental that it is difficult to argue with. Thomson's claim that there are two separate charge carriers is based entirely upon the fact that electromagnetic charge tends to distribute over the surface of a conductor. The proper dimension for electromagnetic charge is in fact e^2. If you don't correct for this problem, it will lead to others.
Meyl has ideas about an "aether", but I'm not sure of course what Thompson says about it, and if/how they differ. What do you mean by using data as quantum physics? The physical constants derived from geometric relations sounds quite familiar, in a way.
plnbz wrote: I feel strongly that *both* the APM and Meyl are the future of the Electric Universe. I think that they say the exact same thing from two different perspectives, and that both are compatible with the EU. We have to start this process of synthesizing all of these theories together, and the first step, IMHO, is convincing people to learn all three.
I know the feeling. Although it still have some troubles determining how far that compatibility goes. Also I really would like to here Thornhill more about how he imagines the neutrino-sea he states and the practicality of such an neutrino-sea. Meyl also goes in that direction in a way, but if it is meant the same.
How do you see such an synthesizing of theories apart from the learning of the different models? And is it something for in this part of the forum or ought it be done in the Mad Ideas section? Little confused about that.
an analogy?
Unread post by StefanR » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:44 am
There was a little story I came across that in a way was familiar in regard to the 'aether'-discussion.
Maybe you like it too.
The weather-cock
Said the weather-cock to the wind,
"How tedious and monotenous you are!
Can you not blow any other way but in
my face? You disturb my God-given
stability."
And the wind did not answer. It only
laughed in space.
Unread post by pln2bz » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:11 pm
The only way currently to learn the APM is to purchase "Secrets of the Aether" for around $60. I've been moving through the text. David Thomson generally responds to requests for assistance, so you get support with your purchase. I've found that a conceptual understanding of physics is helpful -- possibly even necessary -- to move through the work. You will need to understand what all of the major concepts of physics are -- things like permitivity, strong force, Plank's constant, etc. At the same time, however, there are advantages to learning these things along the way: our minds are actually unable to ignore any prior knowledge we've gained about these things which may interfere with understanding the APM. I'm taking the approach of learning quantum mechanics concepts with the APM, at the same time.
There is a set of data associated with quantum mechanics which is somewhat undeniable and lacks any controversy. The real difference is in how you interpret these things. Thomson generally does not dispute these items. But, there are also apparently serious problems with quantum mechanics: like the act of modeling charge and particles as point sources, the idea that collisions can tell us *everything* we need to know about the particle domain, the idea that particles are merely composed of more particles (as opposed to more fundamental concepts) and the sloppy usage of units. Even if Thomson is wrong on key points, many of these strategies are surely on the right track.
Also I really would like to here Thornhill more about how he imagines the neutrino-sea he states and the practicality of such an neutrino-sea. Meyl also goes in that direction in a way, but if it is meant the same. How do you see such an synthesizing of theories apart from the learning of the different models? And is it something for in this part of the forum or ought it be done in the Mad Ideas section? Little confused about that.
In my own opinion, we should not consider discussions of the particle domain as a Mad Idea. There needs to be a push to extend the Electric Universe into the particle domain. It should be considered a natural evolution for the Electric Universe -- the next big item on the long-term roadmap. The reason is that the public expects technology to follow from science. Science in the absence of technology that demonstrates it is comparable to software "vaporware", and it will be dismissed by the public. There are very few technologies that can follow from the Electric Universe alone. The field of quantum computing is an example of trial-and-error science. If we can leverage our understanding of the EU to guide us to a proper particle domain model, then we can possibly innovate products far faster than establishment science.
There needs to be a reading guide that introduces people to Wal's neutrino sea, Meyl's Scalar Vortex Theory, quantum mechanics and David Thomson's APM. This is the project that I'm working on right now, but it's going to take many months to finish it. Each of these ideas has their own pluses and minuses. All of them can legitimately claim legitimacy. We cannot, and should not, attempt to generate consensus on which is correct. The only consensus we need is with regards to the arguments themselves. Once we learn all of these paradigms, then we can try to figure out tests to evaluate them.
The point is that we should not necessarily expect any astrophysical observations to convince the public of the EU. There should be a long-term plan B.
Unread post by StefanR » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:58 pm
Thank you, these were kind of the answers I was hoping for.
I will try to make that my next book to buy. Currently I 'm waiting for the book of Boskovic (post a little up)
as that, I hope, will give me some more insight into the history of the subject.
Before I comment about the QM-part from the Meyl-perspective, I think it will be necessary how Meyl is
viewing the interaction between theory, model and "experienced reality".
I'm glad you brought up Thomson in relation to QM and EU. I think you are right that maybe a inroad
can be made for EU to be extended in that domain even further, even if it is just tentatively.
We cannot, and should not, attempt to generate consensus on which is correct. The only consensus we need is with regards to the arguments themselves.
You won me over with that argument.
Thank you for the nice use of language.
I agree, the astrophysical observations are nice but if one could include the 'quantum'-realm too in a likewise way, it would broaden the picture, so to say.
It's why I also would like to see a good biological approach of the matter, just like you said, in view of a long-term plan B.
Thanks again Pln2bz, I will try to make my next post again more from the Meyl perspective here. Maybe there will be the possibility to open a Thomson-thread, as that will be needed too, if we are to get a good view of the ideas proposed.
Contact 2012
Unread post by 2012 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:38 pm
Could someone please post here those deleted original Maxwell's equations, or at least a clear reference (URL link) to them? I keep reading about them but they are nowhere to be seen.
When people write on this topic and make an important point about these equations, why don't they list them right there and then and show the missing solution?
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Unread post by StefanR » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:31 am
Here is a thread about Maxwell;
James Maxwell's Physical Model
StevenO
Unread post by StevenO » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:07 am
Apologies if my remarks are off topic, but I was triggered by the opinion that laws outside Maxwell's equations would be necessary to explain certain phenonema. All Maxwell formula's have been extensive measured by many experiments. The whole set of formula's might seem intimidating and things like gauges might look like arbitrary boundary conditions. To gain more insights, a new simplified approach to solving electromagnetic problems based on the collective behaviour of electrons is described in a booklet by Prof. Carver Mead called "Quantum Foundations of Electromagnetism". In this document he uses the four-vector Riemann-Sommerfeld description of the Maxwell equations, which lists as:
[]^2 A = -uo I, where
[] = four-vector gradient operator
A = electromagnetic potential (four-vector)
u0 = magnetic permeability
I = current density (four-vector)
Freely translated this states: "The second derivative of the Electromagnetic potential is proportional to the current density". Which one abstraction level further translates into an energy conservation law: Electromagnetic energy exchanges between EM potential and current density. The individual Maxwell equations can all be derived from this one equation.
Inside the booklet Prof. Mead explains many hard to understand EM phenomena in an easy way, e.g. (on p 96/97) why electric dipoles are such efficient radiators for long wavelenght signals (compared to the size of the dipole). I think this can provide a conventional explanation for the effects that are sometimes described to longitudinal waves as done by e.g. Dr. Meyl and Nicola Tesla.
On the other hand though I think the Maxwell equations only describe the collective behaviour of electrons (where the mass of the charge carrier can be ignored) and not of mixtures of electrons and ions/protons as inside a plasma. Many effects that Tesla described were plasma effects and are only learned by experimentation and not from Maxwell formula predicted results.
Thanks for the link's to Boscovich's work. I have been looking for that for some time. Tesla was very fond of him and I'm very fond of Tesla. He described the complete electric universe already before the year 1900, even measured (as he stated) that the Sun's potential with respect to the Earth was about 216 GigaVolt. A result I yet have to see repeated by NASA
Steven O.
Unread post by junglelord » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:15 am
On the contrary, Oliver Heavisides reduced theorums have been fully investigated. Maxwells original work in quaternions has been explained by several notable people and fully investigated by few. One must be carefull when applying the term Maxwells Theorum to Oliver Heavisides reduced theorum. Of course 99.99% of the electrical engineers work with the heaviside vectors vs Maxwells Quaterninons. Those who research and function in the orignal work are fully aware of longitudinal energy and that the reduction by Heaviside is a vectoral subset.
There are still three pages of recovered material to post on that link so please do not post there until it is finished.
Unread post by StefanR » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:16 am
Goodday Steven,
Your thoughts are very welcome here and certainly on topic.
You are quite right by saying that Maxwells equations have been tested extensively. But as Junglelord points out below
it's usually the mix up between the originals and the Heavisides.
Prof. Carver Mead might be quite right in the way he got to were he came. I'm not qualified to comment on his work, but
I think the difference between Mead en Meyl for instance lie more in the approach itself. Meyl goes back to the field-theoretical approach and still keeps Maxwell, but only as a special case. Of course it is always dangerous to speak of a Unifying Theory, and Meyl is quite clear several times in his book that the theory he proposes is done to see how far one can come with the field-approach. Also another reason is causality :
Our physical view of life strictly obeys the rules of causality, the principle of cause and
effect. But there are numerous cases, where causality at first could not be fulfilled
anymore. Here alternate solutions had to be found to not endanger this very successful
principle. A few examples should clarify this:
1. Technically it is impossible to produce a magnetic monopole. When a north pole is
produced then the accompanying south pole is also formed. In the same way only the
positive and negative pole can be assembled as the so called dipole. In the microcosm
however we find monopoles. Electrons are such particles. To restore causality we must
grant the microcosm its own laws that are not valid in the macrocosm! But this
monocausal hypothesis contradicts the observation that the microcosm represents an
image of the macrocosm and vice versa. Doubts if this assertion is allowed are
reasonable.
2. Like charges repel each other and that the more the smaller the distance gets. In an
atomic nucleus positively like charged protons are together at the smallest possible
room without any repulsion happening. Arithmetically seen all atomic nuclei would
have to explosively fly to pieces. But because this doesn't happen, shortly a new and
supposedly fundamental interaction, the strong interaction, was introduced to save
causality. Nevertheless this interaction now holds the like particles in a not explained
manner together. Causality could be obtained only by the introduction of a new
fundamental phenomenon.
3. When causality should hold as the supreme principle, it should be demanded with
priority for the fundamental phenomena of physics. Instead, in quantum
electrodynamics the particle is attributed the same physical reality as the field. With the
wave-particle duality Heisenberg has given out the corresponding formula of
compromise. This slaps the face of the principle of cause and effect.
Causality on principle allows only two approaches for a solution: the quantum physical
approach. which holds the quanta as the cause for the fields, and the field-theoretical
approach. wherein only the fields act as the cause. For both approaches there are good
arguments. The field theorists cite that fields can exist also in the vacuum, so that there
exist fields without particles but never particles without fields. Against that the quantum
physicists hold that somewhere, even when quite far away, there exist particles and that
the measurable fields merely are their action at a distance.
Both approaches first arouse the impression to be fully equal. In the course of the
discoveries in the area of quantum physics, the corresponding approach has been able to
establish. But it demands that all phenomena have to be understood as a consequence of
particles. So should gravitons make gravitation possible, should gluons hold everything
together and the quarks form the basic building parts. Meanwhile there is only worked
with hypotheses. Out of poverty quantum physics meanwhile has said goodbye to strict
causality, after the number of the violations of causality has risen that much and in every
respect there is a lack of models of explanation. It seems as if the end is reached, as if the
quantum physical approach to a large extend is exhausted.
http://www.meyl.eu/go/index.php?dir=30_ ... sublevel=0
He comes to a fundamental field equation wherefrom quantum physical postulates and axioms can be
derived. So the funny thing may be that quanta are an effect of the fields not visa versa. If you like
Tesla and this subject I can only say that Meyl's book is really fun and easier to read in the book
than some of the PDF's. I'm not plugging here, but for me it was I nice tentative possibility
incorporating EU.
By the way, I just recieved Boskovich' Theoria Philosophiae Naturalis, and by the looks of it, I can only
advise to try to find it too. That man had some mind , and this was noted by other big minds as stated
in that post above. So there must be something very inspiring inside or else it might give a glimpse into what was
formative for those minds to get to their ideas.
Thanks Steven for the input,
Greetings Stefan
Return to “The Future of Science”
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Yoooooour New England Patriots!
News, ideas, thoughts, game breakdowns, in-depth statistics, and a whole lot of passion about the New England Patriots from a 30+ year season ticket holder. (Note: even this blog is done in official Patriots colors!)
Patriots Win Game, Division, 24-12
The Patriots took care of business, defeating their "little brother" Bills 24-12 in a game not quite that competitive. The win gave the Patriots the AFC East crown, and combined with Houston's loss at Philly, the Pats will be the #2 playoff seed if they win next week. Speaking of which, the Jets come in with their young QB, hoping to play spoiler to the Pats playoff hopes.
I hope you didn't get too depressed the last few weeks, when the local 11 lost back-to-back heartbreaking games. It appeared they were out of the running for a playoff Bye, but the win today changed all that. It's unclear why people always assume other teams will win-out to knock the Patriots down, but once again, the Pats are kings of the AFC East, and have that week off in their sights.
They did it yesterday with the running game. Excepting the kneel-downs to finish the game, the Patriots rushed 45 times for 275 yards (6.1ypc), with rookie Sony Michel leading the way (18 for 116 and 6.4ypc) and Cordarrelle Patterson (4 for 66, and an eye-popping 16.5ypc!). The O-line plowed through the Buffalo defense, opening big holes and reaching the second and third levels to take out defenders. It was the most yards rushing in any Tom Brady start.
Brady himself was pedestrian, as were the receivers. Julian Edelman had two dropped passes, and Rob Gronkowski had one go through his hands that ended up being intercepted. On the day, Brady was 13 of 24 for 126 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INTs (all that despite being sacked just once and hit only twice).
The biggest problem in the passing game was that only five players were targeted. As stated in the past, Patriots post-season success often comes down to having a lot of receivers involved in the passing attack. It's too easy to shut them down if the other team can key on one or two receivers -- so they have to diversify their passing attack before the playoffs start.
Lost in all the angst of the last few weeks was how well the defense played against the Steelers. In four of the last five weeks, they have given up yards but held teams once they got inside the 20, giving up an average of just 13 points each to the Jets, Vikings, Steelers, and Bills.
They still aren't as reliable as when former D-coordinator Matt Patricia was here, but new defensive signal-caller Brian Flores has improved as the year progressed. And believe it or not, it's mostly about their discipline. They are playing their assignments better; keeping Buffalo's running QB in check on Sunday.
Corners Jason McCourty and JC Jackson are playing better, as is safety Devin McCourty. The linebackers are still suspect, but the D-line looked a lot better against Buffalo. Trey Flowers is by far the best of their front seven, and he's been helped by better play from Lawrence Guy and occasional good plays from Malcom Brown.
On special teams, the team had another blocked punt (Matthew Slater), but they also had really bad kickoff returns. In the third quarter, the Pats had three kickoff returns, and started at the 15, the 12, and the 12 yard lines. Not good, folks, not good.
Where does that leave us? Patriots won the division for the tenth year in a row. (Trivia question: what was the last season when an AFC East team won more games than the Patriots? Bonus question: can you name the team? Answers below.) The team is relatively healthy, and they if they beat the Jets next week, they will be home Wild Card Weekend. Note: Tom Brady is 13-2 at home as a starter against the NYJ in regular season play.
Biggest ongoing concern: It's the stagnant passing offense. With Josh Gordon gone for the year, they have to find another option to take pressure off Gronkowski, Edelman, and the running backs. My suggestion is to use Chris Hogan, but either he or Phillip Dorsett needs to step up if the Pats expect to make much noise in the playoffs.
Non-Brady MVP: Running back Sony Michel, who now has more 100-yard games (4) than all other rookie running backs under Bill Belichick (3). The team is also 4-0 when Michel runs for at least 100 yards.
Statistical oddity: The Patriots tenth consecutive division title is the first time in NFL history a team has won at least ten straight. The only other team in major American sports history to do so was the the Atlanta Braves, who won 14 in a row
Water-cooler wisdom: "Two weeks ago, everything went against the Pats. Yesterday, everything went for them. Call me when that changes."
Keep the faith,
PS. 10-5!
PPS. Trivia answers:
In the 2000 season, the Miami Dolphins were 11-5 and the Patriots the opposite, finishing 5-11. The two seasons since then when the Patriots didn't win the division (2002 and 2008), they finished tied with the Jets and Dolphins, respectively, and lost the crown on tiebreakers.
Posted by Scott at 9:32 PM
Labels: 2018 season, Buffalo Bills, Houston Texans, New England Patriots, New York Jets, NFL, NFL Playoffs
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In the middle of everything, but barely noticed.
Patriots Earn A Playoff Bye, Crushing Jets 38-3
Dolphins Stun Patriots 34-33
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Html Rendered for www.WheelockGenealogy.com 01-01-2020 09:13:10, Email: rbsullivanjr@gmail.com
Perry L. Chamberlain
Spouse: Jennie Cora Wheelock
Marriage: 4 Feb 1889, Hopkinton, Middlesex Co, MA
Massachusetts Vital Records, 1841 to 1910, Hopkinton Marriage Record, Vol 398, Pg 126. Online database: AmericanAncestors.org, New England Historic Genealogical Society, retrieved May 2017.
Rachel Drury
Birth: 13 Feb 1744, Charlton, Worcester Co, MA
Death: 2 Apr 1830, Montpelier, VT
"The Wheelock Family of Calais, Vermont", by Marcus Warren Waite, Driftwind Press, North Montpelier, Vermont, 1940.
Father: John Drury
Mother: Susannah Goddard
Spouse: Asa Wheelock
Marriage: 8 Dec 1763, Charlton, Worcester, MA
Charlton Vital Records
Rhoda Wheelock, born 28 Mar 1765, Charlton, Worcester, MA
Martha Wheelock, born 9 Dec 1766, Charlton, Worcester, MA
Goddard Wheelock, born 25 Sep 1768, Charlton, Worcester Co, MA
Jennison Wheelock, born 31 May 1770, Charlton, MA
Amos Wheelock, born 5 Mar 1772, Charlton, Worcester, MA
Salem Wheelock, born about 1776, Charlton, MA
Mary Wheelock, born 29 Apr 1778, Charlton, Worcester, MA
Leonard Wheelock, born about 1778, Charlton, MA
Huldah Wheelock, born Mar 1780, Charlton, MA
Asa Wheelock, born about 1783, Charlton, MA
Jared Wheelock, born 5 Aug 1785, Charlton, MA
Ella Blanche Harris
Records of Kathleen Mortensen, g-grandaughter of Arthur Welsford Harris, 12 Feb 2011.
Father: Arthur Welsford Harris
Mother: Bessie Trask
Margaret Hennesey
"History of the town of Surry, Cheshire County, New Hampshire, from date of severance from Gilsum and Westmoreland, 1769-1922, with a genealogical register and map of the town", by Frank Burnside Kingsbury, Surry, 1925.
Death: about 1808
Spouse: Phineas Wheelock
Marriage: 8 Apr 1804
John Watts Wheelock, born 10 Jun 1805, Surry, Cheshire Co, NH
William Gray Wheelock, born 7 Oct 1808
Benjamin Franklin Parmenter
Birth: 1824, VT
Records of Kate O'Keefe, Feb 2004.
Spouse: Lavina Wheelock
This is probably the same BF Parmenter who came upon the victims of the Spirit Lake Massacre in Iowa, 1857, as documented in "Legends, Letters, and Lies: Readings about Inkpaduta and the Spirit Lake Massacre", By Mary Bakeman, Published by Park Genealogical Books, 2001, pg 221. Digitized online at www.google.com.
BF Parmenter graduated from Middlebury College in 1850, died in Boone, la., Dec. 18, 1866. (Src: "Catalogue of Officers and Students of Middlebury College in Middlebury, Vermont: And of Others who Have Received Degrees, 1800-1915", By Middlebury College, Compiled by Edgar Jolls Wiley, Published by The College, 1915. Online at www.google.com.
Frank Everett Wheelock
Birth: 24 Dec 1877, Fairfield, Franklin Co, VT
Vermont Vital Records 1871-1908, Microfilm Collection, New England Historical and Genealogical Society, Boston, MA.
Records of Elizabeth (Wheelock) Davis, daughter of Almon Milo Wheelock, Sep 2005.
Father: Almon E. Wheelock
Mother: Anna White
Partner: Winifred Esplin
His birth record refers to him as the son of Almond and Myra. He served in the Spanish American war, and had 8 children by his marriage to Winifred Esplin. (Src: Records of Elizabeth (Wheelock) Davis, daughter of Almon M. Wheelock, Sep 2005.)
Hugh N. Wheelock
Birth: 29 May 1869, Allegan, MI
"The Street Genealogy", By Mary Evarts Anderson, Henry Augustus Street, Published by Printed by J. Templeton, 1895, Original from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, Digitized Jan 17, 2008, Google Books.
Father: Edward C. Wheelock
Mother: Emily Ellen Dickinson
Julius Sherman Wheelock
Birth: 29 Jan 1834, Calais, Washington, VT
"Vermont Vital Records, 1760-1954," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V89Z-XHC : accessed 26 Sep 2019), Julius Shirman Wheelock, 29 Jan 1834, birth; State Capitol Building, Montpelier; FHL microfilm 27,726.
Find A Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 26 September 2019), headstone photo for Julius Sherman Wheelock, Find A Grave Memorial no. 6446275, East Village Cemetery, East Montpelier, Washington Co, VT, maintained by kwhitco (contributor 47789798) .
Burial: East Village Cemetery, East Montpelier, Washington Co, MA
Father: Titus Wheelock
Mother: Elizabeth Heath
Spouse: Hattie N. Blodgett
Marriage: 5 Mar 1873, Somerville, Middlesex Co, MA
"Vermont Vital Records, 1760-1954," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XFWM-2LP : 6 November 2017), Julius S. Wheelock and Hattie N. Blodgett, 05 Mar 1873, marriage; State Capitol Building, Montpelier; FHL microfilm 540,062.
"Massachusetts: Vital Records, 1841-1910," online database, (AmericanAncestors.org : accessed Sep 2019), vol. 254, p. 280, Somerville marriage record Wheelock-Blodgett; from Massachusetts Archives, Boston.
In 1880, Julius is enumerated in the U.S. census living with his wife, Hattie, and his mother, Elizabeth, in Berlin, Washington Co, VT, occupation: manufacturer of lumber.
In 1900, Julius is enumerated in East Montpelier, VT, hotel proprieter, living with his wife Hattie.
No chidren. He left his entire estate to his niece, Janis M. Biro, wife of Joseph Biro. [Src: "Vermont, Wills and Probate Records, 1749-1999," database with images, Ancestry.com (https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/usprobatevt : accessed Sep 2019), Julius S. Wheelock, will, probate date 31 Oct 1904, Washington, VT.]
Luther A. Wheelock
Birth: 14 Oct 1857, Prophetstown, Whiteside Co, IL
Obituary of Luther A. Wheelock, published in the Sterling Gazette, Saturday, 18 Feb 1939; researched by Linda Aust, a descendant of Mary Amanda Wheelock and William Denison, Jun 2001.
Death: 13 Feb 1939, Rock Falls, IL
Burial: Tampico Cemetery, Tampico, IL
Funeral Notice for Luther A. Wheelock, published in the Sterling Gazette, Thursday, 16 Feb 1939; researched by Linda Aust, Jun 2001.
Father: Samuel Leland Wheelock
Mother: Almena R. Langdon
Spouse: Sarah A. Freeby
Marriage: 12 Aug 1874
Obituary of Luther A. Wheelock, published in the Sterling Gazette, Saturday, 18 Feb 1939; marriage date given by Linda Aust, a descendant of Mary Amanda Wheelock and William Denison, Jun 2001.
Charles W. Wheelock, born 1874
Cecil L. Wheelock, born 1885
Spouse: Lou E. Wilber
Marriage: 11 Nov 1914
Obituary of Mrs. Luther Wheelock, published in the Sterling Daily Gazette, 2 July 1941, Sterling, IL; article kindly supplied by Linda Aust, 2001.
After his marriage to Sarah A. Freeby, Luther A. Wheelock took posession of his fathers farm, where he resided until after his wife's death. He had two children with Sarah, Charles W. and Cecil L. On 11 Nov 1914, he married Mrs. Lou E. (Wilber) Van DeMark of Rock Falls, widow of Watson Van DeMark. (Source: Obituary of Luther A. Wheelock, published in the Sterling Gazette, Saturday, 18 Feb 1939; researched by Linda Aust, June 2001.)
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Your Voice!
Year... 2005 2004 2003 2002 2001 2000 1999 1998 1997 1996Teen
Adult Essays
Old Teen Essays
VxAcct: 4
Section: festivals
Posted: June 26th. 1999
Free Spirit Gathering 1999
by Diotima Mantineia
[WVox Sponsor]
An inside look at what goes on behind the scenes at a Pagan Gathering
Review by Diotima Mantineia
Merry Meet!
About 20 people were sprawled over sofas and on the floor of the old, pre-Civil War house, fondly dubbed "The White House" by Gathering staff. Situated at the entrance of the 200+ acre campground that has hosted FSG for 14 years, it's the perfect place to house the staff, and its comfortable front porch becomes the hub of the many activities needed to keep over 800 souls fed, housed and having fun for 5 days.
Now, at 9:00 p.m. Tuesday, questions and answers bounce back and forth across the room at the staff meeting. Recycling? It's already set up. What happened with that last-minute hole in the security staff? There's another well-qualified volunteer willing to do the job. Is there enough wood for the Fire Circle? There will be by tomorrow night.
An early-arriving merchant wanders in, and the meeting breaks for a few minutes while we focus on helping him get oriented. He offers to help if he can stay the night at the camp. Hey, no problem! Put him to work! Well, OK, we'll let him set up camp first...
That settled, Hjartafinn, this year's Gathering coordinator, drags everyone's attention back to the organizational matters at hand. The Duck, an Assistant Coordinator and FSA's president, presents his plan for organizing volunteers. Duck looks, in his top hat, like an escapee from Alice's Wonderland. But his plan has nothing of the Mad Hatter about it -- in fact, it is very well thought out -- and he gets estimates from the various departments of how many people they are likely to need, and when.
The volunteers are sent to places named with typical Pagan whimsy: The Troll Booth at the entrance, where registration is set up; the Tin Can, a large, plain, utilitarian structure that is transformed each night into a magical place of music and dancing; and the Healer's Hut, marked with a large green pentagram -- no infirmaries or red crosses here.
Radio Free FSG
Next morning, the crackle of radios becomes a constant background noise for the staff as we finish preparations and begin registration. With over 200 acres to cover, good radios are a necessity; especially if we want to have enough energy left at night to make a trip to the Fire Circle for drumming and dancing. One person's sole assignment is to keep track of and maintain all the radios.
The Sweat Circle area, so far away that we sometimes lose them on radio, is still being stocked with cords of wood, truckloads of rocks, and many gallons of water. The sweat staff is offering an unprecedented 21 sweats this year -- a challenging number, given how labor intensive they are. Tyrtle, the talented and dedicated pourer who is the backbone of FSG's sweat program, has been blessed by an equally talented and dedicated staff who give freely of their time to work in service to the spirits of the land and to those who come to commune with Spirit in a sweat.
Back on the porch of the White House, radios crackle, and a couple more people are dispatched to the sweat area to "chop wood, carry water".
Up at the Troll Booth, the earliest arrivals have just gotten to our first check-in point -- the 2 hour work shift sign-up sheets. It takes a lot of work and organization to put on a festival of this size, and we need help, so we ask everyone to pitch in. All the FSG staff is volunteer, and we know helping out is one of the best ways to meet people at a festival, so we look on the work shift as sharing the fun. ;-)
By early afternoon, the merchant's booths have sprung up along Merchant's Row, a path leading into the camp lined by tall, stately white pines which are perfectly spaced for the merchant's tents. The array of crafts and other goodies is dazzling, but the staff won't get much of a chance to look today -- there's too much to do on opening day.
Eve, our other Assistant Coordinator, can be seen walking purposefully through camp, while being accosted at regular intervals by people needing answers or solutions and talking with someone on the radio at the same time.
Up at the White House Albion, the Registrar, peers intently at the screen of a laptop computer, ironing out last-minute registrations and cabin assignments. He can keep in touch with Giani, the On-Site Registrar at the Troll Booth, through radio.
Kalabran, our resident Boy Scout, is putting up his ingenious hand-washing stations outside the portable toilets that are strategically placed throughout the camp. As Assistant Security Coordinator, he'll spend most of the festival walking around camp.
Chrystalheart, the Workshop Coordinator, has created large, waterproof schedule boards which she is putting up at the Kiosk to help people keep track of workshop additions and changes. There have already been one or two schedule changes since the program was printed due to the changed travel plans of the presenters.
Like Eve, Hjartafinn and Duck are multi-tasking, almost managing to be two places at once through the magic of radio.
Jen, the incredibly efficient, talented and tireless Entertainment Coordinator, is busy getting the musicians settled in Harper Hall, while making sure the stage in the Tin Can is set for the Kiva concert tonight.
By evening, the campground is transformed by colorful tents, flags, banners and altars. The smell of incense wafts on the breeze, and everywhere people are greeting old friends and making new ones. Eve and Duck prepare for the opening ritual at 7:00.
When the opening ritual ends most people head for the Tin Can for a welcome party, potluck and dance featuring Kiva. By now, the energy of the Gathering has begun to weave its magic, and the mundane world seems far away. The dancing moves from the Tin Can to the Fire Circle by the pond, and goes on until early the next morning, despite the occasional drizzle. Hjartafinn ends the evening by getting his car to make sure someone on crutches did not have to walk back to his cabin in the rain.
So Many Workshops, So Little Time...
By Thursday morning, thanks to the volunteers, most of the staff has figured out how to get enough free time to fit in the workshops, sweat circles and concerts they want to go to. It's hard enough to choose which workshops to take even if you aren't staff! There are usually 4 or 5 going on at any given time, and inevitably there are some hard choices to make. The Pagan community is blessed by some truly inspired and knowledgeable teachers who give generously of their time to pass knowledge along. The variety of workshops offered is astounding; dancing, deep ecology, shamanism, pathworking, crafting ritual, healing and magic are only some of the subjects we have to choose from.
And more people keep coming in....
Registration is holding up well, processing everyone in as quickly and efficiently as possible while maintaining a safe and secure Gathering. We have managed to find enough lifeguards to keep the pools open, and the sweats are going well. Brian, the Security Coordinator (who is walking around with "Sheriff" writ large in body paint on his chest), assures us that nothing is out of the ordinary. We are all feeling a bit more relaxed.
This year, we have daytime open-air concerts, and the booth where drums are sold is the scene of several impromptu drum jams every day. More music can usually be found near Harper's Hall, where at least one person is almost always playing some instrument or another. (We've discovered that if you put a lot of musicians together in a small area, they seem to have this compulsion to make music. We like music. Having discovered this scientific fact about musician's behavior, we got smart and created Harper's Hall).
Healing Time
By Friday, there's a lot of maintenance being done. Emptying trash and recycling bins, refilling water jugs at handwashing stations, making sure the floor in the Tin Can is swept. Parking and Registration are preparing for an afternoon rush, as the weekend-only attendees begin to arrive. The dump truck pulls in with more rocks for the Sweat Circles; he'll dump the load at the dining hall -- from there it's up to us to haul them up to the fire. Hey, how are we doing for volunteers???
Our medical staff responds quickly to a couple of minor medical emergencies. Good thing Jeff, who's in charge of first aid and safety, was insistent that even if there were only two volunteers available at any given time, he would get them both. He was right -- and we were prepared.
We certainly don't lack for healers here, and by now many of the staff are taking full advantage of the various modalities available. We can choose from massage, cranio-sacral therapy, Reiki, auric healing, and even a student of Michael Harner's who offers shamanic healing.
Early evening, and instruments are being loaded into the Tin Can for tonight's concert, people are putting on their evening finery, and volunteers are sent to build the fire for the Fire Circle later on. Almost 800 people are here now, and the healing, transformative energy is reflected in the love and laughter that are everywhere apparent.
Saturday is the last full day, and the pace in camp seems to pick up, as people try to fit in all the visits, rituals, workshops and events they had planned. The pool is a popular place today, too. The main ritual in the afternoon draws a cast of hundreds as Elspeth and Nybor help us turn the wheel again and greet the start of the dark half of the year.
The evening concert, featuring Shaman, is fantastic, and the drumming at the Fire Circle goes on until dawn.
Merry Part
Sunday morning comes, and the clean-up begins. The sweat team breaks down the lodges, and does their best to return the area to a natural state. Signs come down, floors are swept, the fire pit is filled in, recycling is removed. Hugs are exchanged, a few tears are shed, and the cars load up and drive off. Now, only the staff and a few hardy volunteers are left to finish the clean-up amid an almost empty campground. We'll be back in the fall, for our Fall Retreat event, but FSG is over for 1999. Where did the days go?!
Hey, only 357 days 'til FSG 2000!!
And Merry Meet Again!
Associate Editor - The Witches' Voice
(photo above) is of Ron and Arianna from this years Free Spirit.
Diotima Mantineia
Location: Hendersonville, North Carolina
Author's Profile: To learn more about Diotima Mantineia - Click HERE
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Woodie Wheaton
History of the WWLT
East Grand Headwaters
Forest City Dam
Summer Speakers Series & Events
Additional Ways of Giving
Interactive Visitors’ Guide
Maps of Region
2018 Summer Speakers Series & Events
. . . to promote conservation of the Chiputneticook Lakes
The scenic and mostly unbroken shoreline, panoramic vistas, and pristine waters of the Chiputneticook Chain of Lakes are likened to a masterpiece on canvas. Few, if any, places remain in the eastern part of the United States from Augusta, Maine to Miami, Florida that offer the unspoiled beauty where moose, loons and the American bald eagle make their home. Sportsmen, nature seekers, and bird watchers have come to recognize this wilderness and water highway to experience a powerful respite.
Beginning in the 1950’s, Woodie Wheaton brought many sportsmen to this rugged, breath-taking region primarily to test their skill on landlocked salmon and smallmouth bass, chain pickerel, and white perch. His 68-year guiding tradition allowed regular and continual intimate exposure to the natural character of the area. He had a deep appreciation for this unspoiled part of our world and showed concern for its future. The region so impacted “folks from away” with its rustic, unspoiled nature, Class A drinking water, wild things, both fish, fowl and animal, that they could not wait to return, year after year, to inhale the intoxicating aroma from the pine, spruce and fir, photograph the colorful hardwoods and granite covered shoreline, relax at remote lunch sites and say, “I didn’t know there was a place like this left in the country.” He left a legacy that so impacted a growing cadre of folks that the 114th Maine Legislature of 1991 in LD 766 renamed Pickle Island as Woodie Wheaton Island.
But larger and more far reaching, the Woodie Wheaton Land Trust, a 501c3 charitable organization was officially formed in 1996 to protect some of his and our treasures…. forever. We are proud of what we do and hope the lives of all our grandchildren, as Woodie cared about his, may be enriched from this good work.
In 1994 the area known as the “Booming Out” grounds (where the log drivers established a collection point, logs tied together with chains acted as a corral of sorts so they could be towed down Spednic Lake) at the outlet from Mud Lake a 400 acre parcel was brought to the attention of Land for Maine Futures Board and the state of Maine. It was conveyed to Inland Fisheries and Game as an ecological reserve to be saved forever.
In 1995, the Trust quietly promoted a 500-foot easement along more than 16 miles of Spednic Lake shoreline and fee interest which included Walker, Monument, Hairy, Pickle (Woodie Wheaton Island) and 4 other unnamed islands conveyed by Baskehegan Lumber Company to the State of Maine.
In 1996, Dale Wheaton and Mark Danforth witnessed a float plane land on Spednic Lake and someone stepped out to place a “For Sale” sign on the Birch Islands, always considered the crown jewel of Spednic Lake. The very thought of the heart and soul of this watershed being For Sale sent a ripple through the guide corps. While concern had been growing amongst guides that this lake and for that matter, the region, could be lost to pressures of an ever encroaching world, immediate action was taken as long time guide Andrew Brooks quoted, “If we have to. We must dig into our own pockets to buy Birch Island”. The resultant 25-acre purchase of Birch Island and Little Birch Island by WWLT was later conveyed to the State of Maine with restrictive deed covenants.
In 1999, the Trust accepted Freda Island, located at the outlet of the Stream of East Grand Lake for public use in perpetuity.
Also in 1999, the Trust strongly urged the Province of New Brunswick to maintain the wild character of the newly acquired Georgia Pacific timberlands along the St. Croix waterway. In 2001, the Province created the 64,000-acre Spednic Lake Protected Natural Area as a permanent reserve within the Crown Lands ownership.
In 2001, the Trust collaborated with partner organizations; the St. Croix Waterway Commission, the New England Forestry Foundation (NEFF), and the State of Maine to protect a 500-foot corridor along 50 miles of pristine lake and river frontage and more than 3,000 acres of wildlife habitat. This property was conveyed through the Woodie Wheaton Land Trust to the State of Maine with restrictive deed covenants.
From 2003-2005, the Trust actively participated in partnership with the Downeast Lakes Land Trust to extinguish development on 312,000 acres of working forest land in Washington County. This massive Downeast Lakes Forestry Partnership was the largest purchase by protective measure in Washington County.
In 2008, the Trust purchased another jewel, 6.1-acre Big and Little Greenland Islands, on East Grand Lake, located next to the well-known fishing grounds of Greenland Cove. Billy Springer, a tall, lanky fellow who lived alone in one of his two cabins, called the hermit of Greenland Island, would be proud that his old homestead is held in such high esteem, to be enjoyed by all. Our local historian, Bud Brooks with his father Waldo, visited Billy Springer in winter, Bud being towed on a sled pulled by his superb skater, dad. The old block chimney remains a part of the island as well as the little front channel of access, both a nice historical reminder of Springer’s handiwork. The charm of this place allows a brief interlude to disengage from daily cares and concerns and breathe a great sigh of relief from life’s trials and tribulations. Now the “dingle stick” rests over the guides rock fire pit alongside the picnic table and stands as a warm welcome for all.
In 2008, the Trust provided financial collateral to a sister organization, the Downeast Lakes Land Trust, toward the conservation of a 22,000-acre parcel along West Grand Lake. Our namesake, Woodie Wheaton, and his three sons hail from and have deep family roots in the village of Grand Lake Stream.
In 2009, the Woodie Wheaton Land Trust Center was completed to serve as the Trust’s business office and meeting facility. Through the generosity of Ruth Wheaton, wife of Woodie Wheaton, came the donation of property, one of the most desirable building sites in the village and through a major enabling financial contribution by Robert Hector, approximately one-third of the Center’s anticipa ted project cost became a reality. It now provides a base for community outreach, education, field trips, and successful speaker series and is available for use by other community groups in Maine and New Brunswick. This new Center provides for a new level of professionalism and allows directors a place to meet away from their own cottage porches, living rooms, and kitchens taking place into the wee hours, which invaded family privacy for 15 years. Now those closets cramped with maps and bedrooms stacked with file cabinets have a permanent residence and an organization run on deep-seated passion and personal sacrifice is better positioned for the Herculean tasks of conservation, encroachment defense, and staunch stewardship of the future.
A five (5) year effort lead by the Woodie Wheaton Land Trust named the “East Grand Watershed Initiative” was committed to a path of conservation through an outright purchase of fee interest in 2011 by The Conservation Fund. The 12,013 acres of forest and shore lands included a 1,750 acre deer wintering area of state-wide significance, hundreds of acres of high value wetlands, wildlife and bird habitat, and nearly 30 miles of shoreline along Monument Stream, East Grand Lake, Longley, Deering, North, Sucker and Brackett Lakes.
In 2012, the Land Trust began a multi-year effort to help strengthen the protection of the Canadian Shore. A Cross Border Working Agreement was executed with The Nature Trust of New Brunswick to help facilitate future funding of conservation projects within the International corridor. The relationship with The Nature Trust led to collaborative work on the Department of Natural Resources Protected Natural Areas Program and the Crown Lands Exchange policy. Crown Lands comprise nearly all of the remaining undeveloped shorefront along the upper St. Croix including East Grand in the Province of New Brunswick.
Our work will likely never be done and our resources are not enough for all the tasks ahead of us, but our efforts remain undeterred. As strategic planning elevates key areas of importance within the organization, such as conservation education and outreach, and succession planning for strong leadership; we recognize the kind and generous folks that have brought us along. Folks like Ruth Wheaton and Robert Hector saw the passion and commitment of an unselfish and futuristic board to step forward with a real estate gift and a financial bequest that provided a major endowment toward financial security.
The importance of our past work can be best appreciated from the air and on the waterway of this Lakes Region, but, it is the necessary work of the organization that consumes the human resource. To this end, the Woodie Wheaton Land Trust is forever grateful for all those past and present that have contributed so much in time, talents, service and support to the Organization. The work ahead, however, must rest with a new generation of individuals….individuals that share deeply our core values…and whose unsung efforts will build upon the good work of those left behind.
Art Wheaton
By joining the ranks of donors who share our dream, your foresight can help to ensure clean waterways, healthy ecosystems, protected shorelines, vibrant wildlife populations and ample outdoor recreation opportunities.
Woodie Wheaton Land Trust
Forest City Twp., ME 04413
Email: wwltoffice@gmail.com
Visit Forest City, Maine
Copyright © 2020 Woodie Wheaton Land Trust. All rights reserved.
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Gujarat drug haul may be tip of the iceberg
Concerns escalated after Tiwari deliberately damaged the vessel’s Automatic Identification System (AIS), and switched off the ship’s satellite phone, so that Morani would not know its location, an NCB official said.“There were apprehensions that the ship could be part of a terror attack. Call details of several drug dealers were scanned through and reams of documents on movement of similar ships were analysed. The 26/11 records were taken out to look for a similar pattern,” said a senior Intelligence official.Over the next 20 hours, a Coast Guard Dornier aircraft conducted a sea-air coordinated search with two helicopters and two vessels, finally accosting the MV Hennry on July 29, 400 nautical miles off the Porbandar coast. Eleven persons — eight crew of the ship, including Tiwari, and three others — were arrested by the NCB.According to NCB officials, the consignment was loaded into the vessel at sea by a Pakistani boat near the Gwadar port and it left, supposedly for Egypt, on July 20. Pakistani loaders had worked four days to hide the consignment of 1,526 packets of heroin in various cavities, water tanks and pipes.Investigations found that Captain Tiwari was a resident of Kolkata, where he completed a marine engineering course. He was hired by Morani in Iran in May this year to command the ship, originally registered as “Prince-2”. Tiwari had contacted another sailor from U.P. to find the prospective buyers in Mumbai, Vishal Yadav and Irfan, who offered him a commission of ₹50 crore for the consignment worth more than ₹3,000 crore. Yadav, Irfan and Tiwari’s brother, who went to collect a token amount from them, have also been arrested.“The contraband was to be sold through hawala channels based in Chhapra, Bihar, and in Sealdah in Bengal,” the official added, indicating that for each such ship and crew traced, there could be several others that ply their deadly trade regularly to Indian shores. For the Narcotics Control Bureau (NCB) and intelligence agencies, the 1,400 kg heroin capture from the Panamanian ship MV Hennry, caught off Porbandar last week, was a big success. But the extent of the network, and the high risks in the operation is only now being realised, as an investigation report, accessed by The Hindu, reveals, with the captain of the ship, Suprit Tiwari, on the run not only from the authorities but also from his Iranian employer.According to an official involved in the case, the original input for the ship-chase came from “phone chatter”, picked up by the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO) in the Arabian Sea on July 27. From the intercepts it appeared the 26-year-old captain of Indian origin had decided to strike a side deal with one Vishal Yadav, a drug dealer in Mumbai, for a commission of ₹50 crore, instead of sticking with the original plan made by his employer — a Dubai- based Iranian Sayeid Ali Morani — of conveying the narcotic shipment to Egypt.As soon as the NTRO intercepted the satellite phone conversations, a crisis centre was set up in Delhi and intelligence officials from 12 locations in Gujarat and three analysts, who had worked on the 26/11 Mumbai attack case, were tasked for the job.Shadow of 26/11Two big worries hung over the control room, according to the report submitted to the government — one was that though the ship was suspected to be carrying only drugs, it was impossible to ignore the fact that it could also be used for a 26/11 style attack, especially as it came via Pakistan. The second was to avoid a repeat of the 2014 New Year’s eve incident when the Coast Guard claimed that an explosives-laden Pakistani boat had blown itself up in the sea, when asked to surrender. Differing accounts of the incident has caused embarrassment to the government.
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ZUCCARO
Zope/Plone
Portale und Projektseiten (proposals)
Zuccaro-Anwendungen
IT-Strukturen an der Bibliotheca Hertziana
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Copyright © Bibliotheca Hertziana - Max-Planck-Institut für Kunstgeschichte
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The introduction, methods, results and discussion (IMRAD) structure: a Survey of its use in different authoring partnerships in a students' journal
Loraine Oriokot1,
William Buwembo2,
Ian G Munabi2 &
Stephen C Kijjambu3
Globally, the role of universities as providers of research education in addition to leading in main - stream research is gaining more importance with demand for evidence based practices. This paper describes the effect of various students and faculty authoring partnerships on the use of the IMRAD style of writing for a university student journal.
This was an audit of the Makerere University Students' Journal publications over an 18-year period. Details of the authors' affiliation, year of publication, composition of the authoring teams and use of IMRAD formatting were noted. Data analysis gave results summarised as frequencies and, effect sizes from correlations and the non parametric test. There were 209 articles found with the earliest from 1990 to latest in 2007 of which 48.3% were authored by faculty only teams, 41.1% were authored by student only teams, 6.2% were authored by students and faculty teams, and 4.3% had no contribution from the above mentioned teams. There were significant correlations between the different teams and the years of the publication (r s = -0.338 p < 0.01 one tailed). Use of the IMRAD formatting was significantly affected by the composition of the teams (Χ2 (2df) = 25.621, p < 0.01) especially when comparing the student only teams to the faculty only teams. (U = 3165 r = - 0.289). There was a significant trend towards student only teams over the years sampled. (z = -4.764, r = -0.34).
In the surveyed publications, there was evidence of reduced faculty student authoring teams as evidenced by the trends towards students only authoring teams and reduced use of IMRAD formatting in articles published in the students' journal. Since the university is expected to lead in teaching of research, there is need for increased support for undergraduate research, as a starting point for research education.
Globally there is an increasing awareness of the importance of research for developing guidelines to direct social and economic interventions [1, 2]. Research involves the critical analysis of each and every solution to a problem using the scientific method to identify the best evidence based solution for action at the time. Research is thus the foundation of evidence based practice [3, 4]. Society expects universities to lead both the teaching and carrying out of research. This expectation has led to various policy recommendations and initiatives to promote research and innovation. An example of such a policy recommendation can be found in United States of America, where Gonzalez (2001) identifies the 1998 Boyer commission report encouraging universities to place more emphasis on undergraduate research experiences [5]. According to Laskowitz et al (2010), Stanford and Duke Universities have been running undergraduate research programmes for the last 40 years that instil in students an appreciation for rigorous research in academic medicine [6]. In Australia, students picked life skills like time management so long as they dealt with authentic science and had good supervision [7]. In Africa the demand for high quality research at undergraduate level of education, is yet to be met [8].
Research and innovation are critical for national social and economic development [2]. In response to the drive for more economic development, universities are redefining their roles and interactions with society by going from being the traditional storehouses of knowledge to becoming interactive knowledge hubs [9]. One way of ensuring that the Universities actually act as knowledge hubs is through promoting institutional visibility by encouraging research publication by students and faculty using internationally recognised scientific writing formats like Introduction, Methods, Results and Discussion, [IMRAD] [5, 9, 10]. In addition to visibility, the adoption of high quality international standards benefits the university by the creation of a pool of individuals who are conversant with scientific writing. Having such a pool of people supports Gonzales (2001) recognition that research takes place anywhere, and the "teaching of research is a role that is increasingly becoming the preserve of the university" [5]. This role of how research is taught is further extended with Gonzales (2001) arguing that undergraduate research is actually the beginning of a "five stage continuum of research education that ends with a post-doctoral experience" [5]. Research education promotes the uniform conduction, interpretation and response to research findings reported using familiar standard formats of scientific writing. Finally according to Aravamudhan and Frantsve (2009) research education and adoption of uniform formats of scientific writing promotes evidence based practice by improving information awareness, seeking and eventual application of new practices [3]. The rapid increase in the volume of very advanced knowledge and equally rapid changes in the working environment make it increasingly important to equip students with key research skills like scientific writing to keep abreast [3, 4].
This paper looks at work done on the Makerere Medical Journal (MMJ), one of the students' journals at Makerere University. MMJ is run for and by the health professional student body at the former Faculty of Medicine (FoM) that with the School of Public Health became Makerere University College of Health Sciences (MakCHS) in 2008, [11–13] one of the Colleges of Makerere University (one of the oldest universities in Sub-Saharan Africa). With the University's Vision to become a leader in research in Africa, there is a high demand for research and scientific writing currently focusing on graduate research [14]. The effect of student faculty partnerships on undergraduate scientific writing to our knowledge is not well documented. The paper describes the role of student faculty partnerships in determining the formatting of the MMJ articles over an 18 year (1990-2007) period in the journal's existence.
This was a retrospective audit of the Medical Journal MMJ, a publication of the health professional student body. The MMJ is a peer-reviewed publication that provides a platform for students to: share and exchange medical knowledge; develop writing and analytical abilities; promote awareness of students' contributions to health care; provide continuing medical education and foster valuable leadership and editorial skills. MMJ is published bi-annually and has been in existence from the early 1960's. The journal publishes: original articles, reviews, reports, letters to the editor, case reports, includes sections like: educational quizzes and cross word puzzles.
A hand search was made for complete journal volumes from various sources that included the Sir Albert Cook Library which is the main MakCHS library, personal collections and the journal editorial teams' files. For each article found, the following information was captured; the articles' authors and their affiliations, the use of the IMRAD format of writing papers, the composition of the authoring teams and the year of the publication. The data was analyzed using the Statistical Package for Social Sciences Inc. (version 12.0 for Windows, Chicago, Illinois) with the calculation of odd ratios and trend analysis being made with the aid of online Open Epi programme version 2.3.1 http://www.openepi.com [15]. The results were summarised as frequencies and presented in bar graphs and tables with calculation of odds ratios, effect sizes and trend analysis. Additional inferences were made with the aid of spearman's correlations and non parametric tests with the level of significance set as P value of less than 0.05.
Permission to use the data for this study was obtained from the editorial team for the journal. None of the authors' identification details were used during the analysis and the preparation of the paper.
Two hundred and nine (209) journal articles were found during the survey. The earliest publication was of the year 1990 and the most recent from 2007 from 13 volumes of the journal. Of the 209 articles 101/209 (48.3%) were authored by faculty only teams, 86/209 (41.1%) were authored by student only teams, 13/209 (6.2%) were authored by student faculty teams, and 9/209 (4.3%) had no affiliation indicated thus not classified into any of the above mentioned teams. Examination of the paper formatting revealed that only 70/209 (33.5%) of the papers were written using the IMRAD format. The number of articles found by year are summarised in Table 1, with the highest number of 33 in 2007 and lowest number of 5 seen in 1990. There was no significant change in the odds for IMRAD use over the years. (Mantel Hertz chi square for trend = 1.71 p value 0.1906). There were significant correlations between the different teams and the years of the publication rs = - 0.338 (p < 0.01 one tailed) and for teams and use of IMRAD formatting rs = - 0.265 (p < 0.01 one tailed).
Table 1 Use of IMRAD formatting in papers by the different types of authoring teams by year
Use of the IMRAD formatting was significantly affected by the composition of the teams Χ2 (2df) = 25.621, p < 0.001 using the Kruskal Wallis test. Post hoc Mann-Whitney team pair specific tests whose level of significance set at 0.025 showed that the use of IMRAD was not significant when comparing the mixed students-faculty with faculty only teams (U = 444, r = - 0.21), but, was significantly different when comparing the students only to faculty only teams (U = 3165, r = -0.289). Jonkheere's test revealed no trend in the use of IMRAD over the years sampled J = 10100, z = 0.211, r = 0.086. However there was a significant trend to more students only teams over the years sampled J = 6802, z = -4.764, r = -0.34.
The analysis of the data reveals that there is an increase in the number of students only teams submitting articles to the journal. This can be seen in the number of articles submitted which was highest at 33 in the 2007 journal. The increased interest in publication could be the result of a more aggressive editorial team or represent an increasing interest on the part of the student body in the value of research. Increase in undergraduate students interest in research is supported by the observation that globally there is increased interest in research at the undergraduate level as the beginning of research education [5]. The other factor that could support increased interest in research is the adoption of adult learning approaches to curriculum delivery by the FoM in 2003 [16].
Sadly the increased student interest in research is also accompanied by a significant trend towards reduced faculty engagement with students in research (r = - 0.34). Reduced faculty engagement also manifests in two other ways as seen in no change in the use of IMRAD over time (J = 10100, z = 0.211, r = 0.086) and the observation that the students only teams use IMRAD less than the faculty teams (U = 3165, r = -0.289). Even where the journal article had mixed student faculty teams there was no significant increase in the use of IMRAD when compared to faculty only teams (U = 444, r = - 0.21). Reduced engagement could also point to a different trend developing over time, there seems to be little support for undergraduate research in both the curricula and in extracurricular activities. This seems to have been going on for quite some time considering that most of the faculty were once students at this same university. Examining global trends as described by Gonzales (2001), research education has moved from being the premise of graduate students to a continuum that begins in undergraduate education [5]. Active support for undergraduate research is happening in more developed settings as is seen in the example of Duke and Stanford universities [6]. According to Lappato (2007) in undergraduate research experiences students' learn by being positively influenced by the process of investigation, and learning or from modelling higher order methods of thinking as they test and later communicate their research findings [17]. This makes the undergraduate research experiences a powerful tool for quickly increasing the number of high calibre researchers [18]. If one assumed that the use of the IMRAD format is a measure of scientific writing skill transfer then the deductions from the analysis of the data obtained from the student journal articles, suggests that for this population research is undergoing a slow but sure decline. This trend has been observed by other researchers concerning the African continent [8].
Given the powerful nature of the undergraduate research experiences as tools for grooming the next generation of scientists, it is important to look at other factors like the need for extra effort and time of faculty to transfer scholarly writing skills to students [19]. There is need for urgently exploration of mentoring undergraduates in research in line with global research education trends [5]. Some other interventions for consideration include using a training or mentoring programme each new MMJ editorial team [20], and use of the student assessment process as is done at the graduate level [8]. Using student assessment to promote scientific writing requires clear documentation of the different roles of the various participants and subsequent supervision, [21] in addition to the creation of an enabling environment using an institution wide research governance framework[22]. Given that individuals who participate in research as students will more likely continue to participate in research as faculty, it is important that all efforts are made to ensure that the students develop these vital scientific writing skills [19, 23].
This retrospective study of the MMJ had some limitations like: the poor journal publication record keeping, annual turnover of the volunteer student editorial board and use of abbreviated names made it difficult to identify some of the author details. Despite this, it was possible to obtain an adequate sample of the journal's publication for detailed analysis.
This survey demonstrates that in the surveyed university population, faculty student partnerships are not producing the desired level of undergraduate research mentoring as evidenced by the reduced use of the IMRAD formatting in articles published in the MMJ. Given that the use of IMRAD is one of the core competencies for one to be an active member of the scientific community, inability to transfer this skill could help explain some of the identified gaps related to scientific writing in this university and Africa at large [8]. There is need to support undergraduate research in Africa using active mentoring programmes, providing training support for student journal editorial teams and use of innovative pro-scientific writing curricula. Such support could result in the quicker uptake and promotion of scientific writing and the reading of scientific literature in Africa over time.
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The authors express their gratitude to the faculty in the Albert Cook Library, members of the editorial team who participated in searching for the various past volumes of the journal, the journal's reviewers who provided many insightful comments and to Ms Evelyn Bakengesa for the time she set aside to proof read the final draft of the paper.
Former Editor Makerere Medical Students Journal, Makerere University College of Health Sciences, New Mulago Hospital Complex, Kampala Uganda
Loraine Oriokot
Department of Human Anatomy, School of Biomedical Sciences, Makerere University College of Health Sciences, New Mulago Hospital Complex, Kampala Uganda
William Buwembo
& Ian G Munabi
Dean's office, School of Medicine, Makerere University College of Health Sciences, New Mulago Hospital Complex, Kampala Uganda
Stephen C Kijjambu
Search for Loraine Oriokot in:
Search for William Buwembo in:
Search for Ian G Munabi in:
Search for Stephen C Kijjambu in:
Correspondence to Ian G Munabi.
All the authors read and approved the final manuscript. LO: Participated in the conceptualisation, data collection and write up of the final paper. WB: Participated in all phases of the papers write up from conceptualisation, analysis to the final write up IGM: Participated in all phases of the study; conceptualization, data collection, analysis and write up. SCK: participated in the conceptualisation of the paper and review of the various drafts of the paper prior to submission.
Loraine Oriokot, William Buwembo and Stephen C Kijjambu contributed equally to this work.
Oriokot, L., Buwembo, W., Munabi, I.G. et al. The introduction, methods, results and discussion (IMRAD) structure: a Survey of its use in different authoring partnerships in a students' journal. BMC Res Notes 4, 250 (2011) doi:10.1186/1756-0500-4-250
Accepted: 21 July 2011
DOI: https://0-doi-org.brum.beds.ac.uk/10.1186/1756-0500-4-250
IMRAD
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