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First loaf with new starter. Not a brick, but would appreciate suggestions Hi all,it's the beginnings of winter here (10-18C), and after a few attempts I've finally got a starter. Sadly, it's a bit of a slow grower!Ended up taking 3+ weeks to get a starter which doubled in 12 hours, and was able to make a couple of Nor...	Great first attempt That's a very nice bake for a first attempt. The factors that go into successful bakes--handling and shaping skills, recognizing proofing, scoring, steaming, etc.--take time to learn and build.
How to calculate levain percentage Hello all,I've been diving deeper into baker's math and sourdough bread, and I have a question about how to calculate levain percentage. I've been reading Flour, Water, Salt, and Yeast by Ken Forkish as well as The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart, and I've noticed that ther...	Bakers math is a percentage Bakers math is a percentage of total flour weight. In your example it would be 20% of the combined white and ww flour. If you want to calculate hydration (which I think is the cause for confusion) then you would consider the flour/water in the starter.
Attempt #4, fingers crossed This is my fourth attempt at a sourdough starter... I think it's my water (even filtered) that was the problem the last 3 times so I'm using bottled purified water with minerals added back in. If that's not the right kind to use, please let me know! Anyways, here's what I've been doing so f...	First of all... temp 76° is ok but the temp drops at night. That means that the starter will take twice as long as it would if it stayed at 76°F. So day 2 is like day one and day 4 is more like day 2. Got it? You can simply skip a day and then give a Tbs of flour. Feed every other day and just before the temps go ...
Scaling starter recipes I see lot of recipes for when making a starter use a very large amount of flour, for example 5 pounds in the Tartine book. Is it possible to make a starter using a lot less? Say 30g whole wheat, 30g white flour and 60g water? And then feeding it with a 1:2:2 ratio afterwards, so you would always...	Starter Scaling I think the most discussed subject on this forum pertains to starters. You will find a lot of information if you use the search engine. As to scaling the answer is yes, scale as needed.I am currently following a method from Trevor Wilson at www.breadwerx.com and it is a 1:2:4 formula. I use 1 part mothe...
SD bread vs molds - what's been your experience? Still a relatively new SD baker here that's starting to hit his stride w/semi-regular bakes combining Dab's NMNF starter, Tartine's Country bread recipe using a combination of KABF and my own home-milled wheat. My normal bakes are for three 1100g Boules in 10" DO's.I'll...	The only help I can give is The only help I can give is that I make fairly small loaves of SD with 100% home milled whole wheat. I find that if I let it completely cool, then wrap in plastic, I can let it sit on the counter for up to a week before it molds. Usually I get a white mold, not green.
My first Cloche raised and baked sourdough After making sourdough breads with varying success since 1968 I finally came to the realization that with all the variations in amount of sour to use and the time for the leavin to mature and the sponge to rest and the autolysis to occur I just did what the dough told me to do...	Gotta love that crust Lovely! and give it a day or two for the flavour to really come out. Glad you're back into baking sourdough Stuart.
Bread bursting at the bottom Hi folks,I'm rather at the start of my baking journey - posting here for the first time to try resolve a problem that has been annoying me for the past 10 bakes.I'm trying to bake the perfect sourdough boule before moving to other breads, but the loaves keep on bursting at the bottom.I can ...	Steam I think you need to find a good way of introducing steam into your oven or bake inside a preheated Dutch Oven (or equivalent). It seems to me that your bread is crusting over too quickly not allowing sufficient oven spring and the steam, from the dough, escapes at the weakest point. Otherwise your bread certainly...
Starter doubling 1st 24 hrs, then little growth I'm making a sourdough starter for the first time. I mix the whole wheat flour and water and about 20 hrs in it goes nuts and doubles and when I give it the regular feeding at 24 hrs that doubles too. Then when I go feed it 12 hrs after that it has deflated (which Ive rea...	Very normal What you are experiencing is very normal. There is a quick burst of activity but it's not from the good bacteria and yeasts found in a mature starter. It's the other guys. The gas producing bad bacteria aka leuconostoc activity. All does go quiet after that but that isn't to say stuff isn't happening. The s...
Friday's Recommendation - Dark French Sourdough Hi Everyone,In London we have a bakery called "Gail's" which sells lovely bread. One of my favourites is the Dark French Sourdough. I have been in touch with them and have confirmed the recipe on their website is the very one you can buy in their bakeries. Just thought I'...	You don't happen to have a direct link to the recipe, do you? I started digging through the site for it but finally gave up.
Is my starter ready? I am trying to make a whole wheat sour dough starter for the first time and cannot tell from all my research whether it is ready to be used.I used 1/2 cup of freshly milled hard red winter wheat and 1/2 cup filtered water. Put mason jar covered with coffee filter in a warm (70 degree) dark place in...	Seems fast but why not It's strange that it's so fast, and strange that the liquid is at the bottom, but if it's ready, it's ready. Mix it in some dough and proof it. If it rises, you are now the proud parent of some zillions of yeast cells.
whats the difference between rye and white starter in a bread just as a matter of interst im wondering what the taste difference would be in a white sourdough made with a levain:60g white flour20g rye starter60g wateror a levain made with 60g white flour20g white flour starter60g waterthanks	Using a rye starter for a white bread only makes a bland white bread taste better in my book. More complex and possibly a bit more sour. I would make a 10% pre-fermented flour levain out of all rye with no white flour in the levain for an even better tasting bread.
thought i had proofing sorted but now doubting myself i thought i finally cracked the proofing....the feel of the dough, the slow spring back after a finger poke, etc however no matter what recipe i look at i see that proofing times for sourdoughs are generally in the 2 - 3 hour range whereas im in the 90 - 105 minute ...	Soeey I am sorry , but, I cannot see your problem. The loaf looks great tp me!Ford
small sourdough recipe for kids classroom activity hi there,Wondering if anyone has a suggestion for a simple small sourdough loaf recipe suitable for making with 4-5th graders. I am going to help them make their own starters one week and would love for them to make their own loaves as well. I'd need to be able to bake...	Use lower hydration (@60%) - Use lower hydration (@60%) - make sure starter is ready (forget if using yeast) - watch for readiness. That should get ya going. Enjoy!
Nice over spring but dense crumb (also a bit moist) Hi there, I am a beginer sourdough baker in need of help :)I am struggling to get that nice airy crumb on my bread. The texture I get is a bit of an uneven, small and slight moist crumb as (hopefully!) you can tell by the fotos. There’s a nice oven spring and I am hap...	I just wanted to say that the I just wanted to say that the loaf is beautiful. I love how the scoring opened up. Sorry, I have no advice to offer being a beginner...I'm curious, what temperature and baking technique are you using?
Very Low % Levain With LOOONNG Ferment Question I was thinking about trying this over the weekend but was wondering if anyone had any experience with it.25 gms active mature starter (~ 6%) / 288 gms of water / 425 gms WAP unbleached and 6-8 gms of salt. That would work out to about a 68% hydrationWhat I'm looking for i...	I'm no expert but I think... That is why with very long fermentation time one would develop the gluten more slowly. For quick breads one kneads to speed up the process and for very slow breads one would increase the hydration and not knead at all. It's all about bringing the gluten development and fermentation into syn...
Increasing sourness of sourdough Sorry to dredge up a very old and hashed-out discussion but... I've read through many threads on how to increas the sourness of the dough and the amount of conflicting information is making my head spin. Some sources such as this https://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-sour/ sugge...	I have found I have found that a longer and warmer bulk ferment––really pushing it to the limit––produces a more sour loaf, whether the dough is retarded or not for the final proofing (though shortening the final proof by very careful shaping will limit sourness).Additionally, I have found that using part whole wheat f...
Thoughts On Water & Dough Temperatures Recently, I've been playing with temperatures. Forkish preaches 78-79 deg F target dough temp and Robertson's recipes call for 80 deg water. Taking into account they're on a slightly "different" (tongue in cheek) level than I, I always wonder how important those specifics are for ...	I used to be a fanatic when it came to measuring temperature for everything. Now I just use room temp or lukewarm water. I just watch the dough to know when it is ready to move on to the next step. And like you, I proof overnight in the fridge. I am happy with the bread I produce and I am having way more fun trying new...
Pane Cafone Mark II with better crumb After the first success I decided to re-do the recipe with slight changes. I'll post the video again and explain where I differed. Pane cafone (Neapolitan peasant bread) - original Italian recipe Video of Pane cafone (Neapolitan peasant bread) - original Italian recipe W...	Well done Well done. Pane cafone does not have a recipe ... there are a thousand recipes. For me: pane cafone= old dough ( pasta di riporto ) A Napoli old dough is very used for both, pizza and bread.Gaetano
Went wrong with Oland flour, can I save it? New to sourdough, but first few tries went so splendidly I got overconfident then did everything wrong.1) neglected starter (rye based) during a busy week.2) was excited to find some Oland flour, which I never see, but did not research whether it would work in the same cold s...	Can you clarify? When you say neglected did you atleast put it in the fridge? If so, not exactly neglected but would need to be prepped and refer before using depending on how long since the last feed and when you refrigerated it. In future either feed your starter before using and use when mature or take some off and ...
Help please! My italian flour "00" starter doesn't double, will it still work? Please help me. I'm riduculously new to baking and trying to make sourdough starter because I'm desperate for some sourdough bread. I started my starter (pardon the redundancy) about 4 weeks ago, but I don't think it's capable of baking b...	Stir Stir your starter every 3 hours and see what happens. Jim
starter growing red mould With help from the bakers here I started a sourdough starter about 3 years ago and it's still going strong, stronger in fact than before, it raises bread nearly as fast as dried yeast. There have been times I've had to leave the starter for a few weeks and it's developed pink patches of what l...	Pink hue or red mould I believe that some flours can give a pink hue even though I've never experienced it myself. I have only heard about it from similar discussions on this site. However red mould is different and you should be wary of it. Hue = Ok. Red Mould = not ok and you should really start again. Hopefully some...
Sourdough can't be shaped HI, I have been trying to bake a sourdough but it never gets past the fermentation or shaping stages... any advice would be great. Anyway, I live in singapore which is both warm and humid.Starter: 150g (not 75g as seen earlier, my mistake)(100%hydration) (50% rye, 50% unbleached flour) (2 week...	Thoughts My guess is it is overproofed and that you have a very active starter, and perhaps a very warm environment. What temp are you fermenting at? I'd say no rest after adding levain, and add salt at the same time. You haven't detailed how the dough felt during the folds. Was there gluten development, i.e., was ...
Starter & Levain Timing Manipulation Questions Good day folks.Real life being what it is, we can't always go by the schedule our starter wants us to, so I've been experimenting with ways to manipulate the schedule. I was wondering if any of these methods have the potential to negatively affect the end product. As a not...	My thoughts 1. yes, higher hydration will quicken the fermenting time but don't forget that the prefermented flour will be less if the weight of the levain is the same. 2. Ditto to 1. Albeit vice versa3. The peaking is just a visual. Not all starters will behave the same and high hydration starters might not even rise....
Starter too Soupy Hello,Somehow my starter got too wet. I think this because the starter was rising less and less, and last time I fed it, it didn't rise at all, just foamed up. I had been feeding it equal parts flour and water by volume. Today, I fed it two parts flour to one part water, and its acting a lot better...	100% hydration starter I keep my starter at 100% hydration all the time. It's in the fridge for most of its life. The day before baking day I take some out and feed it 1:2:2 (so for example, to build 125 grams of levain I use 25 grams of starter, 50 grams of flour and 50 grams of water) the let it sit on the counter fo...
A Tale of Two Pre-Ferments The experiment…One liquid starter fermented at a warmer temperature for a lactic acid flavour.A second stiff starter fermented at a cooler temperature for it's acetic acid flavour. Blend them into one loaf and see how they play against each other.Pre-Ferment One: The liquid starter…1 tsp rye ...	That crumb looks just about perfect. At this point I've made a small handful of two preferment breads, and I've never quite been able to tell whether the extra effort paid off, except for the experience. for your tasting note, you reference both biga and corn. Is it only the taste that has you mention them since neith...
Is Sourdough more heat sensitive? Hello,I have recently started making all my bread with wild yeast starter instead of commercial yeast. I prefer sourdough in every way, except that I can't seem to dial in a baking time/temp that produces the rich, brown-red crust that results from 'pushing' the baking time of a comme...	Sounds like over proofed Sounds like over proofed dough. Pale crust (grayish) with spots of brown is a sure sign, but pics would be most helpful along with proofing times and temps.
Commercial pannetone-delicious! I never thought I'd say this but I just finished a commercially baked (imported) pannetone with fruit that I bought in January on clearance and it was absolutely wonderful! I had bought several and ate one right away which I did not care for-the fruit seemed unpleasantly strong tasting....	The lightest and most The lightest and most feathery panettone is definitely Michael Suas's Panettone with Wild Yeast from Advanced Baking and Pastry. Highly recommend giving it a try. For something a little more accessible, tasty but denser, I've made Rose Levy Berenbaum's Chestnut Panettone as Christmas presents fo...
Proper Fridge Temp for Fermenting Sourdough Hello,I have recently started working with wild yeast breads, and have encountered several recipes which direct the baker to retard the dough for a number of hours, during which it proofs slowly. In my case, the dough doesn't seem to proof at all. Even after several days. ...	Just use the search tool at the top right... ...corner of the page. Type in 'cold fermentation temperature' and you'll find loads of information already on TFL.Good luck.
Long cold proof failed again After my first successful attempt, I decided to bake the Vermont Sourdough again but this time increased the rye by 5% and added a tablespoon of olive oil. I also tried an 7h45min proof in the fridge at 40.7F... This is where I screwed up I guess. But at least I know what cold overproofed d...	?? Fail It looks beautiful to me. The giant hole is probably just shaping.
Judging levain maturity by weight loss? Is anybody using weight loss as a metric to judge the extent to which the sugars in a levain have been depleted through the production of CO2 by fermentation? What other methods provide a direct measure of maturity? What factors might act as potential confusers (evaporation of wa...	Suspect I suspect that the actual weight loss is too small to be an accurate measure of maturity, and some of the carbon dioxide will be dissolved in the dough and some will be retained as bubbles.However, I will be interested in reviewing your experimental research in this subject!Ford
Not so fresh starter confusion. Bit of a long post - could do with some advice. I've been baking sourdough for a couple of years now so not a novice question, I hope. ;) My starter was a wholemeal rye based on the Hobbs House recipe on their website. I fed it with Doves Organic Wholemeal Rye. Sometimes it smelled alc...	Flours vary... I use Doves, Shipton and other mills flours (Stoates). I've found my starters to change slightly with different flours, but not dramatically.You can change a starter into a different flour by simply feeding it that flour - e.g. wheat to spelt to rye and back again. That's how I created my spelt starter -...
Using mixer makes dough "runny" even w/ stretch and folds. why is that? I've been making SD via the Tartine method for 4-5 months. I recently got a fancy Ankarsrum mixer for my non SD baking. I've been doing some experiments with running my SD dough in the mixer for 5-7 minutes before the 3-4 hours of stretch and folds...	Similar thoughts That the mixing friction heat is speeding up fermentation. Shorten times or lower the temperature of the dough.
100% whole spelt kefir bread For the Pre-Ferment:35g kefir35g whole speltLeave to mature for 12-24 hours (mine took 15 hours) For the Dough:60g of the Pre-Ferment530g whole spelt flour350g water10g salt60g honey The method:Autolyse the flour and water for 30 minutes. Add the honey and Pre-Ferment then squeeze and fold...	Wow, simple and beautiful! I'm impressed that you can create bread like that with only kefir as a rising agent, and with finicky spelt flour! I'm definitely going to try this. I use my home made kefir in several of my bread recipes but only as enrichment; never used it as a starter. Thanks for this!
Kefir Starter Question If I make a kefir starter by mixing 50:50 kefir and flour then left for 12-24 hours at room temperature (around 25 - 28 degrees Celsius at the moment) should I be concerned about it going off?	Other concerns ... .. I'd be more concerned about it being more sour than a sour plum with an extra dose of sourness sprinkled on top.I used to regularly make kefir, but after a few hours outside, it went into the fridge after that. I still have some in the freezer, but I have no desire to use it to make bread with. Ho...
Bulk times - No knead v stretch and fold Hiive been trying a couple of different recipes lately, one being Chad Robertson's country loaf and the other a no-knead one here - http://breadtopia.com/sourdough-no-knead-bread/What confuses me is that chads method requires a bulk ferment with stretch and fold over about 4-5 h...	- Have you compared the initial yeast amounts? For myself, if yeast levels are robust, I give time to get started, then refrigerate. When I want a long ferment at room temps, I barely add yeast; a scant pinch of IDY (measured in hundredths of a gram), or less than a teaspoon of SD mother.gary
Stomach Pain After Eating Sourdough Bread Hey everyone,I finally baked my second real sourdough loaf using my sourdough starter that has been doing great for the last couple of weeks. It smells wonderful and raises wonderfully. My question is I'm experiencing stomach pain almost within minutes of eating the bread. I...	Sourdough stomachache Could be that your dough is too sour. If there is an acrid afterburn that's probably what's going on. Just Try a shorter ferment or perhaps a smaller percentage of prefermented flour. Depending on your climate your dough could be overfermenting if the weather is hot.
Whole Wheat sourdough starter - How to tell if it's good... This is probably going to sound stupid, but here goes....I have killed many sourdough starters in the past, using commercially-bought flours, etc. This time I home ground red whole wheat and tried again and voila! Success, finally. I have fed this new one...	So you're just 3 days in to making a starter? Quite normal and the smell should get more pleasant the more it is fed. There's some leuconostoc activity going on in there and that is what you can smell. Give it more time for the yeasts and good bacteria to take hold. You might find your starter will slow down after the ...
Tropical levain readjusting Hello all,I've been baking FWSY loaves for a couple of years now, and have been happily successful at all the recipes in the book. I have also learned to tweak and adjust flour types and fermenting times in order to make my own personal breads.About six months ago I moved from Oregon, U.S., ...	Hi Bryan, I live in sub-tropical Queensland, Australia. Although we don't have your temperatures all year around, this last summer we had many very hot and humid days.I don't adjust the amount of levain but adjust the timing of both, bulk proof and second proof. If you really want to slow things down, why don't you do ...
My new starter maintnenace for even less fuss Got a new approach to my starter maintenance for even less fuss. I'll either build a stiff levain (like a dough) but build a little extra and just return the excess to the fridge or pinch off a little ball of dough after the bulk ferment. When it comes to baking the next ti...	OK The method is not only OK, but recommended by many bakers. I used a similar technique, though I have 100% hydration. I also keep some dried starter in case of a catastrophe.Ford
any downsides to experimenting with recipes using less flour than the intended final recipe? When I first started doing my sourdough breads, I went with half of Jim Lahey's recipe with 400g of flour (including portion levain). As such I went on a run of bricks at 200g of flour. Once I got decent at it shaping the dam...	Sounds like a starter problem "... not happy with the results (for some reason I've been on a run of breads with denser crumbs or overly sour flavors or both)"That sounds to me that the starter needs some TLC to get back to raising the loaves with lots of yeast. That will hopefully get you out of the rut! Nothing lik...
Feeding cycle of starter Hi,I have a starter in my fridge. I keep it in the fridge and every 3 days I get it out, feed it and use it after 12 hours. Then I feed it again and put it in the fridge.Does this weaken the starter? Should I feed it more often? I noticed that when I keep it in the fridge the starter becomes mo...	I feed mine when it needs feeding It's a 50% hydration starter, 80% bread flour and 20% whole rye (or whole wheat). I only build 85g, allow it to grow by half then it gets refrigerated. When it comes to baking I take a little off and build a levain. My starter can live in the fridge for a long time between feeds and on...
starter getting sour with no power! Greetings14 days ago, I began making a new yogurt starter with 40g yogurt + 40g ww flour) in very warm temp, around 95f (I kept the jar on the mesh behind the fridge). By day 3 it expanded 4x, probably due to Leuconostoc bacteria. Then I moved it on the counter. Room temp at my end i...	I've found very important I've found very important info from this comment made by Debra Wink. She says:" type II sourdoughs, maintained at a high temperature (>85F) with low refreshment rate and long ripening time. Yeast don't do well in that environment because of the temperature, nor does Lactobacillus sanfranciscen...
separate SD and IDY preferments or combined? GreetingsI'm in the process of developing a new starter. Its been 13 days now, yet when testing it to make a dough there was no yeast power yet, though it added a nice tangy sour taste.My question is: since I still have to use IDY in my dough (for rising power) in addition t...	Separate Starter will be too acidic for the yeast anyway.Another way would be to follow a sourdough recipe as normal but when making the final dough add a little IDY.This would be a hybrid.
Has anyone found a proofing temp-time table? I'm having trouble getting a consistent 75° temp while proofing. I've got too many cold spots in the kitchen!So, since I normally end up a few degrees low, I was wondering how to modify the proof times.I use warm water, use the oven with the light on for a proofing cupboard....	The Dough Knows. Let the dough tell you!!! Do not use the clock to tell you the answer. Judge by the dough feel. Use the poke test. Slightly indent the dough. If it springs back it is not ready. If the indentations remain or are very slow to rise then the dough has proofed. With experience you will gain insight....
Do you allow your sourdough to double during bulk fermentation? Was wondering what everyone else does: do you allow your sourdough to double during bulk fermentation? I always have, but had really good results with a much shorter ferment this past weekend and now am questioning my past techniques. I have always puz...	I think you are right, I believe that long fermentation of sourdough is detrimental to the structure of the bread. The gluten hydrolyzes with long term contact with the acidic water. Besides, sourdough does not need the long bulk fermentation to develop the flavor. Much of the flavor has been developed in the matur...
Over fermenting dough I've been having trouble with my sourdough. It has been over fermenting lately, but I was trying to understand how I can get this under control. Ideally I would like to shorten the fermentation or lower the temperature but both of these solutions are not an option, so that leaves me with the amoun...	Do most of the fermentation in the refrigerator Your dough is spending way too long at room temperature. When I do sourdough it is only out at room temperature for 3 hours after initial mixing and then in the fridge for 20 hours. 60-90 minutes for final shaping the next day depending on the room temperature before ba...
Why is Sourdough Bread is healthier than yeasted Bread If high temperature in the oven would kill all bacteria and yeast, why the Sourdough Bread is healthy?	This article touches on the This article touches on the role of the lactic and acetic acids, and how they can be beneficial in a number of ways:https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/22/sourdough-bread-good-for-youThat said, I've always wondered if similar benefits can be had from a long cold ferment of doug...
Calculating bakers percentages with sourdough I've noticed that Ken Forkish and Chad Robertson calculate percentages slightly differently. I'm traveling right now so I can't verify for sure but if I remember correctly Ken includes the weight of flour within the leaven as part of the overall flour count so a recipie wi...	Baker's percentage Count the flour in the levin, starter, and all other sources as part of the overall flour.Ford
Trying to add olives to my sourdough. Each time is a disaster. I put them in after the first rise and the dough just becomes so sticky when folding them in, I have to scrape it off my hands. I've tried drying them by patting with a towel. No difference. Does anyone know the proper way to add olives into a loaf? Tha...	How are they added? I deflate the dough spreading it out before shaping, sprinkle on the drained brined olives and then roll up the dough pinching the seam and olives inside. I little tightening of the surface sometimes brings a few up but they stay pretty much inside. Perhaps you have olives in oil, that makes for sl...
Advice please! SD starter is sick I received a starter from a neighbor ar least a year ago and it had been doing great until recently. I tend towards low maintenance. I keep it in a large mouth mason quart jar, feed it white whole wheat from TJs, let it sit in the pantry until it's nice and bubbly, put it in the fridge...	Sounds like your starter Is very acidic with a disproportionate ratio of bacteria to yeasts. Something which some TLC of greater feeds might help. Take off a small amount of starter and feed very well with fresh flour. Do this a few times allowing it to peak at room temperature. See if that swings in favour of the yeas...
Is this picture ok? GreetingsI've been making a new starter from scratch. Its now 8 days. It rises 2x in 3 hours when 20% inoculated (20g starter, 30g water, 50g flour), so I thought I give it a test by using the discard to make a poolish for pizza dough.So I did a 125% hydration poolish consisting of:- 70g starter- 70...	you obviously have some gas from yeast. It isn't a poolish though, it's a levain or a preferment and I suggest you add more flour and thicken it up to a dough, include the salt and oil if you use some. Using it will tell you if the starter is ready to use. You could thicken up your starter culture as well so as to t...
Hooch keeps happening i have tried building starters three times, and every time I get hooch floating on the top of the starter. This last time I used200g of distilled water (heated to 95 degrees), 60g each of whole wheat and white bread flour, mixed it in a weck jar with the lid on (rubber seal removed and not clamped...	That isn't hooch, it's separation 200g of water / 120g of flour = 167% hydration. The flour is simply settling to the bottom of the jar because it can't absorb all of that water. Back the water quantity down to 120g or less and the paste will be able to hold together without separating. And, while you are at it, wate...
How long for a final proof? This looks like a nice recipe with a lovely resulting sourdough bread. However I am confused about the final proof. After two Levain builds, both of which double within 3 hours, how does she manage a 10 hour final proof at room temperature without over fermentation? And even if one can get a...	This is an all day process!!! If I am getting this right, there are two three hour levain builds, followed by mixing the main dough some stretch and folds and then a 10 hour proof. Maybe 17 hours total. Perhaps the 10 hour proof can be done overnight. I agree that over proofing is an issue.
Sourdough flour ratios I've been having some success using my sourdough starter directly in the main dough but have been trying to use a preferment to improve the flavor. My question is about the flour ratio of the starter flour to the added preferment flour and the ratio of the final preferment flour to the additiona...	Steve, sorry, I have trouble Steve, sorry, I have trouble following your question, though here are a few points. If you are using 3 to 1 whole wheat flour, you might try to increase the hydration a bit. I am normally using 100% whole wheat, and commonly use from 75% to the low 80's. If the question is how much of t...
Tartine Starter Q hey all, I'm a newish baker!im trying to work with the starter recipe in Tartine No 3 and I can't tell if it's working for me. I've followed all of the steps (50/50 wheat/white flour mix, 300g water, fermenting in a bowl for 3 days) and there's almost no smell to it and the top is really crusty with s...	starters need a certain starters need a certain temperature - if like me you live in a temperate part of the world you need to find somewhere warm. I started making starters last year in the autumn in ireland - bad timing - and made a number of them and put them into airing cupboard...it took longer than the prescribe...
Help!!! I'm at the end of my wits Sitting here trying to find a formula for converting the weight of fresh yeast to the amount needed of Lievito Madre.No matter how many websites I look at, I can't find it!For example, if a recipe uses 50g of compressed (fresh) yeast, how much Lievito Madre do I use?While I'm asking t...	Natural leaven is generally Natural leaven is generally 20-30% (baker's %) for a standard bread (ie not panettone or a super different bread).
Borodinsky recipe scald question About to do the starter build and scald. Seem to remember a discussion about whether the coriander goes into the scald or the final dough. Which is the most authentic method? So I bought some crystal rye malt as a close second to red rye malt. After grinding some, and inhaling a lung fu...	My suggestion would be to use My suggestion would be to use coriander in the scald, the bread comes out better this way. Also, I always double the amount of spices from what the original write-ups suggest. As to the authenticity, there are multiple published recipes, there could be as many as 20, although majority of...
Scoring and loaf density Hi there!Still in the newbie stage of trying to learn about sourdough and wondering... I made two loaves from the same batch of dough and tried a different scoring pattern on the boule. Although it is a slightly heavier loaf, it is actually smaller. Would the difference in scoring be responsibl...	Inconclusive It's hard to say for sure. There could be other things at play, including how you shaped them. Certainly, the score on the batard looks structural, and would likely have allowed for more upwards expansion. All of the other scores have only scratched the surface and are purely decorative.
Spreadsheet for tracking starter builds Just in case anyone finds it useful, I created an Excel spreadsheet to track/plan starter builds (yes, I admit that I'm a total geek ;-P ). Comments, corrections, suggestions etc all welcome.You should be able to download it from this link:https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5fze057k4ctct...	Google Docs version OK here is a version of the spreadsheet as a Google Doc, which might be more useful for people... I guess you'll have to take a local copy in order to enter your own data (sorry, I'm not too familiar with Google docs :) )https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_aDm6Q12vaE1xdidgUinhNKa1o6lG3fA2SWRfol...
Beer Starter? I go out of my way to bake everything with beer....and...as I look to attempt my first sourdough....I'm wondering: Can I make my starter with beer instead of water? Will there be any flavor benefit? Or...is this not desirable given the alcohol content in the starter?	search for beer bread. I search for beer bread. I know this has been done. I hope it turns out good, love the idea!
More height from batard I've been baking a lot of Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough lately... it's tasty, and focusing on the one formula has helped me to dial in my shaping and steaming in the oven. It may be a forlorn hope, but I'd like to get a little more height out of my batards. I recall reading that a single leng...	Batard Rise I find that two shorter, overlapping scores create more lift than a single full-length score. A few months ago I abandoned the couche in favor of bannetons for my batards. I also do an overnight cold proof and I find that between the scores, bannetons and cold proof I am getting loaves that have more vertic...
starter I started for a new starter last week. i was rising nice for the first 2-3 days. but now its just bubbling but not rising. Do i start over? What should I do. Julie	Stir it but don't feed it! The bubbling action is caused by the various bacterias fighting it out ... sort of. Ha ha! The medium has to become acidic enough for the right mix of bacteria and yeast to grow and that takes some time. So stir it every 12 hours and when you see some bubbling action, then you can feed it acc...
Lactobacillus vs my fridge I found a copy of Calvel's The Taste of Bread at my library. In it, he states that lactobacillus does not handle temperatures under 10 degrees well.My culture got weird a bit ago and I had to restart it from an all-rye starter I keep in the fridge and refresh weekly. Is it possible I am run...	Don't Understand this statement Calvel must mean 10 Celsius which is 50 Fahrenheit. The statement is strange as we know one can freeze lactobaccili starter cultures and they can be revived by thawing and feeding to build up the a starter. I've been keeping the same starter in the refrigerator for over three years now...
Why Don't my SD English Muffins Taste More Like SD? I converted my favorite English muffin recipe to SD but was disappointed with the results (recipe below). I thought they tasted no different from the all-instant-yeast version. Can anyone offer some suggestions on how I might change the recipe and/or technique to brin...	More sour starter Try using starter that has peaked, then been refrigerated for a day or two or three until it smells quite acidic (acetic acid), rather than fresh starter (i.e. fed within 8 hours or so of baking).
Sourdough Ciabatta Hi AllI tried a sourdough ciabatta for the first time last night and have a few questions to put to the well initiated bakers out there. Recipe:1000g stone ground white bread flour300g sourdough starter 100% hydration 850g water20g saltThe starter had bubbled out of its tub and floated well, so I tho...	rustic Looks nice nice.My favorite rustic-looking bread.
Second sourdough bake - Vermont SD. Comments please! (Edit: Why aren't the pictures upright??)That's the pretty side of the loaf. Here's the not-so-pretty side.Tragic. I think I bumped the top of the loaf with the pot when I was trying to cover it. Sigh.I wish the crumb were more open... Does it look overproofed? It's ...	Hey that looks so good! This is a really nice loaf! Looks excellent to me. That big hole I think is only to do with shaping otherwise everything else seems to be spot on. Lovely crumb, crust and good oven spring. Bon Appetit.
Red tint on top of starter Hello,I was wondering if anyone had more details about contaminated starters that turn red-ish on the top.I've been using the same starter for some pain de campagne for the past three years, and before my move last week, I ended up feeding it with a different flour and tap water instead of th...	Whole wheat can cat a pinkish Whole wheat can cast a pinkish hue. So can mold. If the smell is off, it may be mold, which would be a bummer. Try taking some from the bottom of the tub, feed it a few days, and see if it the pink and off smell returns.Good luck!
How can i improve? Hey guys, so far ive been able to consistently get good (but not great) bread, which my friends love, and is on a 'weekly subscription' plan with me.Though i always wonder why my loaves do not come with larger holes. Have a look at my procedure and let me know if it's an issue with my recipe, techniq...	I'd be careful with the bulk I'd be careful with the bulk ferment. 8-10 hrs at that temp, with added yeast might be a little long.
SD Flavor as it relates to PFF%, Time, & Temp Looking for the opinions of other bakers as it relates to Percentage of Pre-ferment Flour (PFF), duration of fermentation, and temperature in respect to flavor (sour & non-sour).The following is what I believe. What do you believe?Extremely low percentages of PFF will prod...	Thanks for posting. I'm Thanks for posting. I'm eagerly following this discussion.
Sourdough starter in hot, humid equatorial region Hello Bread Masters,I have been lurking around Fresh Load for years and years. I have learnt a lot from here and made fairly decent pizzas, middle eastern flat breads, bagels, but, not so decent loaves . I am an excellent arm-chair baker though :)I have an overwhelming...	Yes... ... would be the simple answer. Make the starter with your flour then stick it in the fridge. Keep it in the fridge, take some out, add more flour + water to make a production levian and use that to make bread. (top up the jar and put it back in the fridge)The issue is the rather low protein flour - that's not g...
Need a quick answer... Starter almost too active Photo: Atleast tripled if not - more, and just starting to break the surface.So I had some 100% whole rye Levain @ 100% hydration leftover from last week that I stored in the fridge after peaking. Last night I fed 50g of this levain with 50g water + 50g khorasan flour as...	Probably too late ... but I have no experience with khorasan flour, but my liquid starter will triple in 3-4 hours after 2 feedings with my usual AP/WW/Rye mix. If I am not ready to use it, I refrigerate it. Usually, it shrinks rather quickly in the fridge. That always scares me a bit, but it always works fine the foll...
Too much gluten forming in sourdough starter Hi,I have recently found that my sourdough starter kept at 100% hydration has much more gluten development than it has in the past. After i feed it and let it sit for 4-8 hours, it is much lumpier than it has been in the past and it looks like there has been a lot of gluten ...	Why? "... i try to minimize stirring, only enough just to combine."Why minimise stirring? Stirring encourages yeast growth. It sounds like stirring isn't enough to combine. Try this... add the water first to the starter culture that is going to be fed breaking the lumps of starter to a milky liquid. Then add the f...
Doubling recipie Hi,I'm very new to sourdough and still learning a lot! After trying a few different recipes I've found one I really like here https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/san-francisco-style-sourdough-bread/My question is. If I want to double the size of the loaf, can I just double all the ingredients? Then do ...	Yes and No Yes to simply doubling everything.No to extending the fermenting time as everything has been kept to the same percentage (taking into account temperature has been kept the same).Baking time will be extended as it will be a larger loaf.Nice recipe.
New starter question Hi,Here are the details of a new starter I started on 26th April and have been feeding once every 24 hours.Day1 mix a tsp of wwf and apf tsp of waterDay 2 add 1 tsp wwf + 1 tsp waterDay 3 to 6g of remaining starter after discard I added 3g flour and 3g water (this was the day the starter had a horr...	I've heard of Not building too much. I have also heard of building up instead of discarding. However you really are working with a very tiny amount. No matter though. When your starter comes to life just keep what you have and feed it 1:1:1. When it gets stronger then discard a little and introduce a greater feed.You'v...
Sourdough Interior Hi all, I have been baking the basic sourdough bread using the Tartine method at 76% hydration. The only thing that I didnt have is the Dutch Oven but I put a pan of boiling water into the oven for 20mins to create the steaming effect in the oven. I juz couldn't understand why the bread is always end...	Need to know recipe and build progression To make helpful comments we need to know your recipe and the build progression. That being said the fact that you're in Singapore may indicate that fermentation at all stages may be more rapid than the Tartine recipe calls for resulting in a slightly over proofed loaf. Two acti...
First sourdough bake! Comments and advice eagerly awaited :) After cultivating a 100% hydration white/rye starter for 1.5 weeks, I finally baked over the long weekend using theclevercarrot's beginner's guide (http://www.theclevercarrot.com/2014/01/sourdough-bread-a-beginners-guide/) and got my very first sourdough loaf...	What a lovely first Sourdough That is one lovely looking loaf. Great first sourdough. Here are some pointers though. Or one pointer really. Watch out for over proofing. The uncooperative dough and the photos point to over fermentation. You live in a hot country and it would be a good idea to use less starter or do part...
My take on a multi grain sourdough So I got my inspiration from this recipe http://breadandcompanatico.com/2014/06/06/barley-semola-sourdough/ but added a few changes here and there. Original recipe is as follows...BARLEY SEMOLA SOURDOUGH200 g active wheat starter, fed at least once and doubled before being used700 g +...	You know, I've gotta ask - You know, I've gotta ask - what exactly is the point of taking expensive flour with delicate and exquisite taste like spelt and tossing strong tasting flours like rye and barley on top of it?
Dough Globe, starter toy Ran across this article (a bit late, 2012) but wondering if anyone has seen anything similar "out there" for play. http://www.azeliaskitchen.net/dough-globe/Thank you, Azelia for the fun article. :)	What a cool idea! If I hadn't had the info from this site, I would have been highly tempted by such a "toy" when I was getting my starter going. Thanks for sharing it - it was a fun read about a cool concept.
One bad mother! Tomorrow Slow-Moe2, my fledgling whole wheat starter, will be 8 days old! I moved the rubber band (7hrs.). Slow-Moe2 has already at least doubled. I want to see how much more he will go. Tomorrow we bake!	Slow-no-longerMoe2 Is looking good! Have a good bake! :)
Olive Oil Herbs de Provence Sourdough Discard Crackers I’ve been keeping my sourdough discard and found a recipe for crackers which I’ve never tried making. I’ve used my discards to make pancakes but never crackers. 6C5A7A17-4E18-4D23-810F-D745D533FD43.jpeg 14F6917B-DDBA-44F7-ACDA-B1625EBE99F8.jpeg ...	Crackers look great Ben, but Crackers look great Ben, but I don’t think your link above is correct.Dan
Old-School Deli Rye... ...from Stan Ginsberg's The Rye Baker. Made with medium rye flour and first clear flour. Nice moist crumb. Good recipe if you remember this category of bread from childhood.Didn't use caraway seeds because certain family members don't like the flavor. Half-eaten in the shot below!	That is really a very nice loaf with a great crumb texture, very even one. I was eating something like that in northern Germany one week ago.Well done and happy baking Weizenbrot!Joze
Which point to use starter during its rise/fall cycle? Is it best to use my starter when its at its peak? At the moment I am mixing up the leaven at the time of the starter's normal feed (when out of the fridge i feed every 24 hours, so i make the leaven 24 hours after last feeding).This is essentially when the starter...	First the details of the feeding Exact details if you can. Amount details, temp and flour type, please. Also if you are happy with the way the starter is working for you. That is most important. And yes, everytime fresh flour is added, it is like a feeding. Adding starter to a recipe is feeding the starter only mo...
Is this underproofed? Hey all!I haven't posted here yet, but this site has been extremely helpful for me getting started with my sourdough adventures. I appreciate this community so much.My question is: Why do I have this huge bubble in the middle of my sourdough? Underproofed? It seems to pass the finger poke test. Am...	How's your degassing coming along before shaping? What has changed in the last few days? Ambient temperature or dough temperature? Time of day? Temp of water and/or flour?
Talk to me about Barley Bread One doesn't come across barley bread very much, if at all! Historically I'm under the impression it was more popular but for some reason it has fallen out of favour. Why should this be so?So my next quest is a Sourdough Barley Bread. Can anyone advise what I should expect? Whenever I try a...	Never used it, but love Never used it, but love barley flavors.My buddy Google tells me thisNaked barley flour, which was prepared using a pin mill, was characterized and used for the production of naked barley bread. Untouched naked barley flour has high viscosity and water absorption compared with strong flour. These...
where Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis get Maltose from in white flour ? There is only about one question about San Francisco sourdough that I don't get...Could somebody please explain to me exactly where and how does Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis get Maltose in white flour from, if there is No Maltose in white flour an...	First of all, there's some β First of all, there's some β-amylase in the flour - it does not depend on germination. Second, most of the time a miller will adjust enzymatic activity of the flour to the degree optimal for the fermentation.
Quick question during baking :-) Hi guys, It's been a few weeks since I've been on TFL.I've been on holidays so I haven't baked for a while but now I'm back with a vengeance. :-)Or so I thought. In my haste today I forgot to only add a little starter to my mix to make a levain. instead I doubled my starter as a normal ...	So let me see if i've understood this... You normally go for a little starter in a levain build and wait more time but today you've added more starter?When you say it's been a while since you have baked does this mean it's been a while since your starter has been fed? Well depending on how long it's ben since the last...
Maximum time for autolyse with levain? If I'm adding the levain to the flour and water before autolyse, what is the maximum time I can autolyse for? What about if I keep the dough in the fridge?	Once the levain hits the rest of the flour, then you are no longer doing an "autolyse" --- you are starting the fermenting process. The "autolyse" is supposed to be strictly flour and water with no added source of yeast (whether the levain or a poolish or straight commercial yeast). The purpose is to hydrate the flou...
Need Help with Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel from Bread Hi fellow bread bakers.I've now had three failed attempts at making Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread. Each time the bread has broken apart after the baking and 24 hour rest period.The first time I followed the recipe as written. ...	Possibilities about Horst Bandel The sunken top suggests that the loaf had been over proofed before baking. A gummy interior at the end of a bake for an all-rye loaf doesn't necessarily indicate it isn't fully cooked; hence the advice to let a loaf stand for 24 hours or longer before cutting. It takes time for the moi...
Help with Proofing & Scoring After several years off of free-form bread, my daughter has decided that she LOVES sour-dough. After having a bunch of trouble with Reinheart's Sourdough in BBA, I moved on to Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough. First time around came out much better, though there are still some obvious issues...	I'm guessing it's an oven issue. I don't see anything specifically suggesting an over- or under-proofing issue. The crust looks kind of dull although well-colored. This suggests under-steaming. The method you use gives good results for lots of folks, so I wonder if you have a gas oven that is venting the steam.There ma...
Holey top, dense bottom (overproofing?) Hello! I'm relatively new to sourdough (this is my 10th loaf) and am still trying to understand the signs of a well-proofed loaf. One of my difficulties is that my starter is pretty slow (it takes about 8 hours to reach its peak) so I can't normally go off times listed in recipes...	Underproofed Welcome to sourdough! From the picture it looks like a classic case of being under bulk fermented. The typical signs of this are large pockets of air with tight, dense crumb in between. Did you allow any bulk fermentation before you put the dough in the fridge?
Looking for some direction please So, I decided to "graduate" to sourdough breads. :) I got what I think is a good starter from the folks at Breadtopia. It's been fed several times already (1:1:1 ratio), and after each feeding, after about 2-3 hrs it gets very active and bubbly, and goes on for hours, at least triplin...	I'm an absolute newbie to breads... ... and am impressed with just how well you managed with such a high hydration dough to start with! Kudos on your tasty results (and really - the taste is the most important thing).Personally, I started out with trying the 1-2-3 style (you can search for it here on the site, but it'...
Mold on Starter Hello! I hope everyone is having a great day.We recently had to leave for a week to go to North Carolina. For the first time, I put my 4 month old sourdough starter in the fridge. Came home and it looks alright but it formed a thick, dry layer on top, and the very top of that had a tiny patch or two of...	As long as it's not red/orange mold and there's some salvageable starter then take some healthy starter off, thoroughly clean the jar and utensils and then give the starter a good feed or two. I've just had the same issue.http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51477/crisis-averted-i-hope
Oven Spring Hello everyone!I was wondering about how to improve oven spring on a sourdough loaf. I use 100g of 100% hydration wholemeal starter, 100g wholemeal spelt flour and 350g strong white bread flour for my bread. I've heard that using more wholemeal flour reduces the oven spring, is this correct? And does the nu...	it's complicated Many things affect oven spring, but with that basic formula, you shouldn't be sacrificing much of it at all because of the whole meal flour.The best way to narrow down the issue and get targeted help is to post more information on your formula and process, with pictures (esp. the final product, inside ...
Crisis averted, i hope! So I'm putting away some food in my fridge when i happen to glance at my starter sitting at the back and neglected for quite a few weeks. Wait a minute... do i see some white fuzz* on there? It's a Tupperware container, not exactly see thru, which is opaque and hopefully my eyes decieve me. But ...	All good starter vibes heading your way!I basically run Dabrownman's NMNF whole rye starter, but I give it a stir once a week or so (whenever I'm pulling some out of it), and I now keep a piece of plastic wrap sitting loosely on the surface so that it doesn't dry out so much. The plastic wrap isn't tight to the sides ...
Giant Gaping Hole I'm fairly new to making sourdough bread and ran into this giant air bubble on my last loaf. Any ideas what may have caused this? I followed this recipe: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/country-sourdough-less-levain-longer-autolyse/	Guess My guess is that you enclosed a giant bubble in the dough when you formed the loaf. Only a guess!Ford
Am I on the right track? Hi guys! I am a total beginner, and have been blindly baking sourdough loaves with my first successful starter for a few weeks now. Today I finally ended up with probably the best one, but honestly, I have no idea what I'm doing. Here is what I ended up with. The problem is that I don't know wh...	Looks Great! Looks Great! Congratulations!Ford
Tartine starter Hey,So ive been following Tartine No.3 starter. Its been around 3 weeks now and my starter has been rising and falling consistently but im worried I dont have enough yeast. It doesnt smell yeasty or beer like.Ive been feeding it every 24 hours 75g starter and 150 grams water and 150g 50/50 flour mix.Im ...	Looks fine to me! My starters dont smell like beer either especially if they are being fed regularly. They smell like bread dough to me so I wouldn't worry about the smell. Your starter looks nice and active so go ahead and use it.
My very very first mother starter, is it ready yet? I've been using fleischmann's yeast ever since I've learned to bake baking six years ago. Finally took a step forward and made my first mother starter. I've used the pineapple method which consisted of 28 grams of all purpose flour and 28 grams of whole wheat flour by...	Making a viable starter in 8 days is certainly possible But it is a bit young. You could dive into a recipe to put your starter through its paces and see what happens. Or keep on feeding it for the next few days to build strength. Some might say to do a hybrid loaf but that won't tell us if your starter is firing on al...
Beginner Recipe - ideas Hi allI was wondering if anyone could suggest a good beginner recipe for me. I've had a few attempts now, some were great, others not so much. I think I'm attempting to run a little before I can walk trying high hydration doughs before I've got the basics down.I have a starter that is 50% rye, 5...	Two recipes I recommend One is Hamelman's "Vermont Sourdough ". I'm sure you can find it online somewhere but it's from his book "bread".The other is this one... https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/Both lovely!You've got a levain build too. The whole recipe has a step-by-step guide.Enjoy.
Retarding Rise Problems I mixed my levain and let it sit out for about 8 hours at room temperature (70 or so). After two folds and an hour on the counter, I put the bread in the fridge to do the bulk ferment overnight. This morning, at 5:15, I shaped the loaf and put it back in the fridge to rise. I baked at 2PM and go...	Not Enough Time at Room Temperature.... is my guess, though we don't have your recipe to be able to trouble shoot anymore. After mixing my sourdough is at room temp for three hours before overnight retardation. It is then at room temp for 90 minutes max (depending on the ambient temp) for shaping & final rise prior t...

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