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how you explain this to your kids,
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how you understand or try and guess what the future's going to look like. we don't even.
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it's tough. i also, i'd say.
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one other thing which we'll talk about, but the work i do here in new york.
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feel incredibly lucky to have that kind of `work that does feel meaningful.
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...but that's not true. he's a human being.
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...so they can recover to get them back into the blood and guts, of course, but-
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... they only hold on to the game so long.
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and farm workers that we see that organizing around the whole worker and their whole life and everything that brings them to that point, that they're at work was historically what made.
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the u.s. labor movement strong. and we need to revive that.
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the amount of notice that they deserve. they have really been leading the way in developing new ways of organizing because the old ways don't work for us.
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you were just listening to angela vogel, organizer with the philadelphia drivers union and george gonzalez, a gig worker with instacart and uber. and that does it for this edition of.
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making contacts. and we want to hear from you, what do you think about gig work and coronavirus? join the conversation on facebook. our twitter handle is making_contact on an instagram.
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hello and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm.
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Mike Nasnik.
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lives. the uncertainty of it all is perhaps.
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well for me, at least the most annoying part. and i think that most people recognize that at some point we will certainly.
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post pandemic. and right now about the only thing that people can say is that technology is going to play a major.
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role. we've already seen what a big and important role technology is playing in our lives to make it through the pandemic, whether.
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it's just the basic tools for online meetings, or just the fact that so many of us are now working from home, thanks to various technologies. and we're seeing some big shifts.
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telemedicine, which has been talked about for ages,
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but the pandemic suddenly shocked the system into making it widespread and making it a reality rather than just something that people predicted would happened one.
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day. so today on the podcast, we have.
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julie samuels, the executive director of tech nyc, who we've had on the podcast a few times in the past as well.
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and that's so interesting to me because you mentioned ab5 and these laws in new jersey and massachusetts-
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...and it's becoming very clear that just because a law exists, it doesn't mean it's being used.
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that's exactly right. and the enforcement has always been the question. and i think that ab5 really proved that.
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but you will hear from drivers in any state that they have filed complaints with their departments of labor, that they have file complaints with their attorney general-
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...that they haven't filed a complaint anywhere that someone can file a complaint to have employment classification enforced. and that there's a total lack of action.
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angela, are there laws being developed on the national level that would protect drivers and gig workers?
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there is definitely a national coalition of driver led organizations. i think at this time-
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...one of these states to sort of set an example as to what can be done federally when the political landscape is a little more conducive to that.okay.
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like domestic workers. what's been challenging about organizing gig workers?
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the biggest thing that i'm always trying to impart on trade union organizers is that in many trades, the work that they do, that the workers do,
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they're very proud of it and they build their identity around it. right? so if i'm talking to a steel worker or a nurse or a teacher, being a nurse or a teacher, or a steelworker is.
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part of their identity. the biggest challenge that we have with uber and lyft drivers, other than the high turnover is the lack of association with that identity, right?
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we do have quite a number of members where being a driver is really part of their identity, but because of this app-based gig type work.
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about what their experiences is driving, i also have to know why do they drive? what is it in their life that they need this flexibility in hours? that driving was the thing.
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that made sense. what is it that they are working towards, that they're willing to go out and risk their life to make $10 on a trip if they're lucky.
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and i think that these are, if we go deeper in u.s. labor union history, and look at, like you mentioned, domestic workers.
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and to end the show, we want to highlight this sort of new and visionary work and also talk about what still needs to change.
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so angela, first off, let's talk about the gig economy pre covid 19, and how that's affected the situation many drivers are in now?
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...lack of good paying jobs. and many, many people turn to app base work.
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...in six weeks after losing their jobs for any kind of economic relief
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so you talked about, i think you called it employee designation. can you talk about that more? what does that mean? what's a contract worker?
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so for example, our right to have the company that pays us pay into our unemployment insurance to pay stipends for healthcare-
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... what happens with app based work is that we don't have a manager standing there checking whether or not we came to work on time or not. and so, many workers believe that just-
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...because they don't have to punch a clock and have a physical manager there-
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...that, that makes them an independent contractor. apps have clouded the amount of control-
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..right based on the customer rating or whether or not i showed up on time and it's penalizing us or rewarding us for doing what the app wants-
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...us to do. so the argument has always been that uber and lyft drivers are actually employees and that those companies exert a lot of control over our work.
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and that makes me wonder how much does an average driver actually make in a year? is that data out there?
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so, like we are constantly telling our regulatory agencies and legislators here in pennsylvania, legislators often use the lack of access to data as a reason-
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...why they cannot go to uber and lyft and hold them accountable. we're constantly trying to remind them that data is here. i can open up my app right now and tell you exactly how mu-
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...much i need over what hours and we can figure average expenses for the average mile in the average vehicle. the irs does it every year. so the data is out there-
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...drivers, and it's work that should have been happening for years.
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...not able to get the tests to verify that. and in that case they would not be eligible for the paid sick leave.
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...coworker had just caught coronavirus and that they had to send them home. so about three days later, i started getting a really bad cough and it turned into pretty violent fe-
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...fevers. when i checked my temperature, it was a 103.7, but it is by far the most sick i've ever been. which led me to sleep in my car,
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and i eventually went to the er, they did not want to test me for covid because they said "well, it's been two and a half weeks. there's no point of giving you-
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...a test." now i reached out to uber, i reached out to lyft to see if they were willing to help me get a test. they did not help me at all.
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...going to happen if myself or my daughter-
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you were just listening to chris benner from the department of environmental studies and sociology at uc santa cruz and the institute for social transformation. you were also listening to george gonzales,
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...and get behind the scenes information on our website, radioproject.org.
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welcome back. if you're just joining us, we're taking a look at gig workers and how they're doing during covid 19.
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and from our guests in the first half, we mostly heard that they're not doing well. they feel like they've been working without much support under very dangerous circumstances. and they're vulnerable-
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...because they're not considered employees. they're considered contract workers, which kind of means they're on their own. now one of interesting developments in the past few years in many states, is a pa-
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...passage of laws designed to protect gig workers. so laws like ab5 in california and restrictions on who's considered a contract worker and-
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...these laws are passed because of organizing, organizing by drivers and other gig workers.
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we wanted to talk with one such organizer.my name is angela vogel. i am a driver and organizer with philadelphia driver's union-
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... this motherfuckers, this whole gang-
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... this fucking cop. why? what? he put his hands on somebody like that.
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at times they're wearing mask.george, have you contacted the app companies for help with things like mask and gloves?yes. i have reached out to lyft. i have reached out to uber and i have reached out to
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...the instacart. in all three circumstances, it's become pretty much impossible. instacart last week finally allowed me to request an order and that was-
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last friday in oakland, they were distributing hand sanitizer and masks. i'm in sacramento right now because there's no work for me in the bay area. and i couldn't drive-
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...an hour 30 minutes just to go get and sanitizer so i had to pass up on that. so i called and i stayed on the phone-
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...for about two hours. i talked to three different people and finally they said, there's nothing we can do regarding getting you a mask in sacramento. it's extremely hard doing this on our own with-
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...i heard him get kind of angry.they're not doing a single thing. every single thing that happens is me. every time that i spray-
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...time that we are looking out for our community, that is something that we are doing out of the kindness of our hearts. that is just not something that uber is doing for them.
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...but a company like uber for example, is valued at least $60 billion.
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so we reached out to about 10 app companies seeking their comments, but we didn't hear back from them in time. we did however go on their websites to check on the new corona-
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virus updates and many companies are slowly starting to distribute protective equipment. though, from the drivers we talked to, it seemed like they'd been waiting for a long time-
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and some drivers had already gotten ill from transporting sick passengers.
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so we asked chris what motivated people in his study to keep driving, but we also wanted to know what motivated them to stop driving, given all the economic repercussions?
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...make it possible economically to do it and second is because, of course they're afraid of getting exposed to the virus. and i should mention that-
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...ride hailing drivers in particular are particularly vulnerable because they're giving rides to a lot of people who are traveling. so coming in from different parts of the country-
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...really any data in the country that i know of that gives a breakdown of infection by occupation. we have some data from health workers but other than that, really not much.
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but we know with the limits in testing that there are many, many people who have had covid 19, or have it now including with very serious symptoms who are no-
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we have a question in the survey that asks people, "whether they have enough resources to handle an emergency expense of only 400
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?"we're not getting tipped very well. and that ends up putting us in circumstances where we're making well below minimum wage.
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better right now because i have to work more hours to make less. and my kids are not able to go to school right now. so, just finding the time to help them with their
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homework, i'm having to pay for more food. all of this is going down at a time where i'm making less than i've ever made, i think. i
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my future. and, there's no shame in it, but it's definitely something that my family has counted on. there's a lot of things right now that are not getting paid.
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mainly difficult to access.large portion of people have no health insurance, either about 17% of the most recent survey
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base. that makes them very vulnerable in the current context.
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filing for unemployment seems like a heavy tackle. it's taking a lot of people, a long time to get their income. i know that numbers are not guaranteed. and furthermore, there's
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uber is just one of those difficult things that make it very hard when applying for any kind of help, because we are independent contractors. so, maybe that's lack of
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a good job trying to navigate us toward these healthcare options.
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for george it's too much of a gamble to try and wait for unemployment or other benefits to kick in. he'd rather work now while he's still able to, even if it's
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