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N
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like, even the social cons are, a lot of them, are tired of that. at least the ones that the big kids debate.
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this is a guy who said the other day that he wants to intensify the war on pot.
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well, carson said this, probably christie did too-
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it means they're their own men. they're not blowing with the winds of change like hillary clinton and like a bunch of other people's style.
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they bravely stand up for their principles. they just are atrocious.
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the way that the prohibition party runs a candidate every four years and gets like 120 votes. at some point you're like, oh, that's cute-
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it's like when our dad went to cover a kkk rally for the newspaper and he says there were five people there and you're like, oh, that's sweet-
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probably three of them were, if i understand correctly.
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no, the clan no longer wears uniforms and disguises themselves. they just go to trump rallies.
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your war with the trumpers, the trumpets, whatever, trump, whatever they're called. yeah. how's it going for you? have you had more battles with the trump people?
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well, trump has mainstreamed himself now, so he's a little bit boring. i liked him a lot more when he was telling me what he really thinks. openly and aggressively.
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just an open fascist. now it's a little bit depressing how the political process civilizes people in a way.
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so, last night's debate, he came across as like a regular politician.
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[inaudible 00:02:57] by the way. not to be too picky but-
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the word describing a people as cunning just never comes off super well.
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okay. yeah. you're right. thank you, tom. yeah. i can never decide if i want to-
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like who was freaking me out more. trump when he's full on about immigration stupidness or just the status quo of almost anyone else. i mean-
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i think, was something to consider is, we have to think about temperament. i mean-
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somebody earlier, i forget now who it was said that, it was todd who said that he admired bush early on, the old bush, early on-
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because he thought he would be sort of a drunk in the white house and not do anything other than yell at kids on the white house lawn or that sort of thing.
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so i think this is the right way to think about people. it's like, what is the temperament they have?
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and i think about trump. if he gets power, if he actually gets elected. i fear for this country's future. i fear for the future of human liberty.
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because i think he's the real deal. i think he's a brown shirt in his heart.
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and he will not make any distinction between the government and the people. he will imagine himself as ceo of of this nation.
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and run as much, in as far as it's possible, run this country the way he runs his business enterprises. which is just an unimaginable horror.
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but i look at a guy like, i think about jeb bush and-
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think about this but, somehow i press, cruz scares the-
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can't get it. i mean, he's just scary. he says crazy stuff all the time.
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you know, rand paul's a bit of a technocrat. i like him to personally, in many ways but-
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i'm not so sure that he has sort of stability that, i mean to obtain maximum power does weird things to the human mind.
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so let me just ask you this-
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who among this crowd is most prepared to obtain maximum human power and not abuse it?
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i'm not the only libertarian or conservative who secretly was a little saddened that biden didn't run.
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only because, horrible though he is, he's so normal. all the others seem just strange enough. they may do something horrible and bizarre.
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biden probably would be pretty predictable in establishment. and it's, of course, a very sad thing when you've sunk so low, you're disappointed biden is out of the race.
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he would have just given into [inaudible 00:00:04], i think he would have [flip-flopped 00:00:05] on everything that he was bad about in the past.
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[crosstalk 00:00:010] is a disgusting drug warrior, who gets almost no credit for that.
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[crosstalk 00:00:14] is just like handsome and is always like touching people, and it's just really great for some reason.
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[crosstalk 00:00:22].well, in addition to being relatively ordinary, which yeah, biden does kind of give you that blue-collar, sit-down..
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.. kind of atmosphere. but the other thing about biden that he had in his favor was..
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he was already a joke. i mean, he was already the onion's running joke.
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who's already a joke before they even to get into office, then all the.
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..fighting against the tide, the way it is now with obama, where he still even just a bit untouchable,
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..the comedians, the people who would satirize any other politician in that position, they still..
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go after obama. he's still untouchable.
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in drinking [inaudible 00:01:14] on the riding lawn mower, on the white house lawn.
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maybe i'm like politics version of a movie star for me to think of him that way, maybe i'm getting it wrong.
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he has that gleaming grand and stuff and he always seems a bit painted.
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but who among the republicans, you know, has this sort of most normal..
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you know, sort of sober sense that, you know, to obtain this kind of office to get the mandate and not do crazy things.
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N
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i mean, it seems to me, i mean, [inaudible 00:01:53] is interesting and i'm interested in, in a way. but it seems to me among the whole crop it's jeff.
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i mean, even jeff's the one you can sit down and shoot the breeze with, i mean that..
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is rooting, i didn't know we were analyzing..
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X
5.380952
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Development
..me as just the normal guy. i guess the normal guy does tend to get the nomination. romney, that checks out. the really strident..
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apparently he's a stepford candidate, he's not the normal guy. he was this robot..
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N
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Development
..entirely on sympathetics around me. i was probably wrong, but i, there was a part of me that just, part of the capitalist me, it was..
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F
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Male
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another pessimistic thought, i found myself during the romney thing worrying, what if we look back years from now and say that's as good as it ever got.
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N
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that was the last capitalistic nominee, either major party ever had..
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Development
well, that reminds me of a really depressing matt welsh piece from like last year, where he talks about basically, libertarians..
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X
4.2
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Female
Development
maybe obama is sort of good in certain ways. [crosstalk 00:03:09] and it was really..
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that might be true. i mean, we, i tend to think, i look, you know that i, i lived through the 90's. none of the rest of you did, but i did.
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and i remember meeting clinton, like hating him, like every day. oh, clinton, horrible.
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U
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Male
Development
[inaudible 00:03:27] he left office, i couldn't exactly remember why.
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that's good though, because that's our job. like it's our job is to hate them all.
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O
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Development
and not even a [inaudible 00:03:37], he use the issue by thinking that they're bad people because that's basic, nearly irrelevant..
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A
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is that they're going to be given a hideous amount of power, and i hear you slack of accountability and we know what happens with that. so it is our job to hate them all.
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H
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Development
with obama, i mean, this is why i'm worried that, i mean, we're going to look back and go, wow, he was awesome.
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that was kind of welsh's argument, and it was at least partially true..
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of looking back, saying obama was fairly centrist.
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as i think all presidents kind of have to be because it's the one office that has to appeal in theory to a majority of the whole country instead of just one crazy partisan district.
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but i did find myself trying to remember just a few days ago, why i hated bill clinton in the 90's.
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and there actually was a lot there to hate. although it's easy to forget, because a lot of it didn't really have a big impact.
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but as, as i think david bowes from kyoto pointed out..
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clinton rattled off more spending proposals faster in his speeches than any prior president in history.
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like at sometimes faster than one per minute, he would rattle off new program ideas.
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the juncture in history, when everyone should have been pushing to say, communism has collapsed, free markets should be the new dominant ideology in [inaudible 00:05:00]
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i think a lot of libertarians should have been saying that more stridently but, that's a separate issue-
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at precisely the time we should have been pushing to make hardcore free market principles the new ideology-
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Train
i remember clinton and a lot of his cronies were saying, it's time for a third way. socialism's failed but, we don't want to go to full fledged capitalism. we can forge a middle path and stuff like that.
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and of course, clinton picks all that up from tony blair. one of the most vile, reptilian figures on the-
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N
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Train
that is true about clinton. and i think the reason we all now, in retrospect think of, hey, the clinton years weren't so bad-
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was because of everything he wanted to do that didn't pass.
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and frankly, [inaudible 00:06:53] never goes down but, it did slow under clinton.
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more than it did under reagan and more than it did under the two bushes. and certainly more on than it-
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N
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obama. there's something to be said for the fact that yes, he was distracted by monica lewinsky and the blue dress and all that and-
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wound up in his second term being a foreign policy president, like all the ones in the past have been, intersecting in terms where they can't get any thing through congress-
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and yeah. hhe did bad things then because they were lobbing bombs at aspirin factories in iraq and-
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we're getting involved in air wars in kosovo-
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but domestically, he couldn't get his agenda through. that's why, in retrospect, he succeeded because he failed.
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in fairness to the clintons, i suppose they do have a lot of corporatist instincts as opposed to socialist instincts and sometimes, that's a slight imposing-
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i think in some ways, hillary clinton will be the culmination of the whole 100 year progressive plan-
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in that if you look back at the original progressive's, they didn't think of themselves as full fledged socialists. they really did want a partnership between big government and big business.
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and it took a while, but they got it. they won.oh well.
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i have a whole topic about how horrible the progressive's were in so many things that piss me off about the history books, even i read as a homeschooler. jack, you were saying. go.
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i have, well, several things. i'm curious about how, how todd would distinguish the progressive's from the from the interwar fascists.
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my impression is that there's definitely a distinction between the left progressive's and the right fascists.
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and exactly how that plays itself out in history. i don't entirely understand but, there was something franklin said that i thought was really interesting about the clinton years-
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that the freedom such as the laws of the 90's, came about not because anybody intended it but, because there was a gridlock.
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that nobody's agenda could get passed because, there was too much conflict and they were canceling each other out. as a result-
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the result was a lower budget deficit, some increases in freedom. there was welfare reform and otherwise-
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